Senate
10 October 1918

7^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

PETITION
- Entertainments Tax
QUESTION
- KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY STRIKE
QUESTION
- RECOGNITION OF GALLANTRY
QUESTION
- FOREIGN NAMES
QUESTION
- INTER-STATE COMMISSION
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE
BEER EXCISE BILL
PAPERS
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE
QUESTION
- MIDLAND RAILWAY COMPANY : PAPER
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIA HOUSE
QUESTION
- PAPER CONTROLLER
QUESTION
- WOOL POOL
DEFENCE BILL (No. 3)
SERVICE AND EXECUTION OF PROCESS BILL
INSTITUTE OF SCIENCE AND INDUSTRY BILL
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

The President (Senator the Hon. T. Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 6754

PETITION

Entertainments Tax

Senator GRANT presented a petition signed by 303 persons, patrons of picture theatres in Australia, protesting against the imposition of any tax on children’s 3d. admission tickets.

Petition received.

page 6754

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY STRIKE

Mr. Carl Hermann Whitorff

Senator FAIRBAIRN:
VICTORIA

– I ask the Minister whether he is aware of the nationality of Mr.Carl Hermann Whitorff, who is holding up the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway at the present time?

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Defence · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The significance of the name mentioned struck me, in common with other persons, and I am having inquiries made concerning it.

page 6754

QUESTION

RECOGNITION OF GALLANTRY

Senator BAKHAP:
TASMANIA

– I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate whether anything has been done in connexion with a matter to which I directed attention by a question submitted in the Senate some time ago, in reference to a Spanish officer of. one of the vessels captured by the Wolf, who, at very great risk to himself, threw some infernal machines overboard to protect the lives of women and children ?

The PRESIDENT:

– The honorable senator is making a statement instead of asking a question.

Senator BAKHAP:

– I was explaining the matter in case the Minister might fail to recollect it. I wish to know whether, through the Spanish Consul here, anything in the nature of a commendatory communication has been addressed to this officer expressing praise of his action.

Senator MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– If the honorable senator will give notice of his question, I shallhave an inquiry made into the matter.

page 6754

QUESTION

FOREIGN NAMES

Senator GARDINER:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– Following the example of Senator Fairbairn, I ask the Minister for Defence whether his attention has been called to the name of Jens August Jensen and that of General Sellheim ?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– My attention has been called to both the names mentioned, and their origin has been satisfactorily cleared up. Neither of the gentlemen referred to is a German.

Senator LONG:
TASMANIA

– I ask the Minister for Defence if, before permitting his appointment to the Meat Board, he inquired into the nationality of one Fritz Lang?

Senator PEARCE:

– No such appointment was made.

Senator Long:

– Did the Minister grow cold on it when Lang arrived here?

Senator PEARCE:

– The Swan Meat Company was asked to send its representative, and they sent a gentleman of the name of Fritz Lang; Immediately the Minister in Charge of. Price Fixing was made aware of this, he had inquiries made as to the nationality of the person mentioned, and I may add that he is not a member of the Meat Board.

page 6754

QUESTION

INTER-STATE COMMISSION

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister representing the Prime Minister - (1) What has become of the Inter-State Commission? (2) Whether a copy of their report on the evidence recently taken with regard to clothing is available ? (3) Whether the Commissionis dealing, or. intends to deal, if it be still in existence, with the question of the high cost of vegetables?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

-It seems to me that Senator Grant’s second question answers his first. With regardto the other question, I shall have inquiries made.

page 6754

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Enemy Aliens in Service.

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND

– I ask the Minister for

Defence what is the result of the inquiry by the Commission appointed by the Government to inquire into the question of enemy aliens in the.Defence Department ?

Will the Minister furnish a report to the Senate showing what action,if any, has been taken on the report of the Commission?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– The question should be directed to the Minister representing the Prime- Minister. I may, however, be allowed to say that the Commissioner was appointed to inquire, not as to the aliens employed in the Defence De-. partment alone, but in all Commonwealth Departments.

SenatorFOLL. - I ask the Minister representing the Prime Minister what is the result of the inquiry by the Commission into the question of aliens employed in the different Commonwealth Departments.

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– We anticipate the report, and it will be made available as soon as it is completed.

page 6755

BEER EXCISE BILL

Bill received from House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator Russell) read a first time.

page 6755

PAPERS

The following papers were presented: -

Bounties Act 1007-1912.- Particulars of Bounty Paid, &c, Financial year 1917-18.

Defence Act 1903-1918. - Regulations amended.- (Statutory Rules 1918, No. 242.

Lands Acquisition Act 1906-1910. - Land acquired at Randwick, New South Wales - for Defence purposes.

Naval Defence Act 1910-1912.-Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1918, Nos. 244 and 245.

Navy and Defence Administration - Royal Commission. - Report on Navy Administration; together with Report (adopted) of sub-committee of Cabinet thereon.

Treasurers’ Conference, Melbourne, 17th to 20th July, 1918. - Summary of Proceedings.

Shale Oil Bounty Act 1917. - [Particulars of Bounty Paid, &c, Financial year 1917-18.

War Precautions Act 1914-1916. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1918, Nos. 246, 248, and 258.

page 6755

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Preference to Returned Soldiers -

Postal Sorters’ Award

Senator GARDINER:

asked the Minister representing the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it the policy of the present Government to discharge men in their employ to make way for returned soldiers?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

-The answer is -

The policy of the Government in regard to’ temporary and exempt employees is that, in the case of new appointments or renewals, returned soldiers are to replace eligibles, married returned soldiers to have first preference; whilst individual cases of hardship caused by displacement are to be considered on their merits. With respect to casual employees, returned soldiers are to receive first preference, and are to replace eligibles wherever possible.

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Is the Postmaster-General aware whether the Public Service Commissioner has applied to the Arbitration Court for a variation of the award of the Postal Sorters’ Union?
Is the Postmaster-General aware whether, without waiting for the decision of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court, the Commissioner has issued instructions in the terms of his application for a variation, and whether such instructions do not constitute a material interference with the terms and conditions laid down by the Court in 1915, without the sanction or approval of the said Court?
Does the Minister approve of the action of the Commissioner?
Will the Minister issue the necessary instructions restraining the Commissioner from taking any action which would tend to interfere with the aforesaid award pending the consideration and decision of the Court?

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

– The answers are -

Yes.
The Commissioner has, the PostmasterGeneral understands, issued instructions subject to any order which the Court may subsequently make on the subject. The PostmasterGeneral is unable to answer the legal point involved in this question.
As the Commissioner’s view seems reasonable, and is subject to the decision of the Court, the Postmaster-General sees no objection.
The Postmaster-Generalhas no power to issue instructions of such a nature to the Public Service Commissioner.

page 6755

QUESTION

MIDLAND RAILWAY COMPANY : PAPER

Senator GRANT:

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

What is the area of land held by the Midland Railway Company in Western Australia?
What was the assessed value, the amount of land tax imposed, and the amount paid in each year from 1910 to 1918 inclusive?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– In reply to question No. 2 of Senator Grant, I beg to lay on the table a return showing the area and value of land held, and land tax imposed and paid, 1910-11 to 1917-18 inclusive, Midland Railway Company Limited.

Motion (by Senator Grant) agreed to -

That the paper be printed.

page 6756

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA HOUSE

Senator GRANT:

asked the Minister representing the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

What is the amount of rent or other receipts now being received by the Commonwealth Government for Australia House in London ?
What has been the total cost of Australia House to date -
1. For land
2. Building.
3. Other expenses.
4. Estimated annual cash loss, if any.
5. Furnishing.

Senator MILLEN:

– The answers are -

Cash received on account of rent and other receipts (heating, lighting, and cleaning), twelve months ended 30th June, 1918, £14,214 19s.
Cost of Australia House to 30th September. 1918-

During the year 1917-18, the revenue actually received exceeded the expenditure in respect of upkeep, taxes, and salary of Controller by £2,042 0s. 3d. In addition, the Commonwealth was relieved of payment of rent for offices for the High Commissioner. This in 1916-17, amounted to £1,670 14s. 6d. No provision has been made for depreciation of premises or interest on the capital cost of the property.
Furnishing - £6,561 12s. 4d.

page 6756

QUESTION

PAPER CONTROLLER

Senator MAUGHAN:
QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister representing the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice - .

Is it a fact that Mr. William Brooks, M.L.C., of Sydney, has been appointed Paper Controller for the Commonwealth?
If so, what salary is attached to the position?
Is it a fact that the Controller has announced his intention to cut down the import of paper and newspaper by at least one-third on account of shortage of shipping space? .
Is the position of Controller and the creation of a large staff really necessary?
Is it a fact that a large number of ships are employed bringing lumber from the Pacific coast of the United States of America to Australia while our own timber is going to waste?
If it is so, will the . Shipping Controller take action, so that shipping space now utilized by lumber may be applied equally to those necessary commodities that cannot be purchased within the Commonwealth?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– The answers are -

Yes.
Mr. Brooks’ ‘firm is being paid the amount of Mr. Brooks’ salary during the period his services are required by the Government.
The curtailment of paper importations will be regulated by the inward shipping space available.
The position of Controller is abundantly necessary; it is not yet known what staff will be required, but it is not expected that it will be large.
Ships do bring lumber to Australia, but they are American ships.
The Shipping Controller has no power to allot space on such ships, but the Government is considering the best method of using available shipping space to Australia to the best advantage.

Senator MAUGHAN:

– Arising out of that answer, can the Minister give the information regarding the salary Mr. Brooks is receiving as Paper Controller for the Commonwealth?

Senator MILLEN:

– I have, on previous occasions, pointed out the impossibility of answering questions at this juncture without notice. It is impossible for me to have details connected with a Department with which I am not associated.

Senator Long:

– Did you inquire into his nationality?

Senator MILLEN:

– It is so obvious that inquiry was unnecessary.

Senator Needham:

– The answer did not give the information as to the salary attached to the position.

Senator Maughan:

– Thatwas one of the very questions of which I gave notice.

Senator MILLEN:

– I can, upon the honorable senator asking another question, direct the attention of the Department concerned to its failure to supply the information sought.

page 6757

QUESTION

WOOL POOL

Appraisement of Wool

Senator NEEDHAM:

asked the Minister representing the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is the valuation put on the wool and skins by the appraisers in the various States subject to any check valuation lot for lot by either the Imperial authorities or manufacturers taking over the wool; and, if so, is such check available in Australia?
Are local appraisers of skins, &c, chosen on their special ability or merely as nominees for wool merchants?
What influence do such nominee appraisers, i.e., members or employees of local wool firms, such as Dalgety, Elder Smith, and Fieldings, have on valuations arrived at?
Does any arrangement exist between the Wool Committees and the agents as to restricting the number of acquiring agents?
Have the number of acquiring agents been reduced since the inception of the appraisement scheme?
Is any arrangement existing between the Wool Committees and the erstwhile big woolbuying firms, say, H. Wills and Company, in the matter of agency and handling charges on wool sent to such firms to be forwarded by them to the acquiring agents?
What is the total number of dealers’ licences issued to date?
Has there been a reduction in the number of such licences issued for 1918-19; if so, why?
What will be the effect of such curtailment?
What are the conditions of the issue of these licences?
In view of the shortage of shipping space, is it considered more efficient to bring down all the wool from the North-west coast, where storage is available (Port Hedland, &c), to have it appraised than to have the appraisers transported there?
Is it a fact that some thousands of bales of wool have been railed to Fremantle, appraised there, then railed back to Perth, with cartage and handling to various stores in Perth; if so, who will bear the cost of all this handling?
Is it in the interestsof national safety that the ruling world prices of wool are prohibited from publication?
In what manner are the small growers represented in the State Committees?
Is it a fact that the agents and kindred mercantile interests have predominant influence, and not the growers, in such State Committees?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– The answers are -

Yes; by local manufacturers and by experts in Great Britain representing the Imperial authorities. Such checks cannot be made available.
The appraisement of sheepskins has been discontinued. When sheepskin appraisers were appointed, it was on their competency and fitness for the position.
Appraisers representing wool-selling houses have no influence on valuations beyond the fact that the tribunal for the valuation of wool consists of two final appraisers, representing the Central Wool Committee, and one expert of the wool-selling house, representing the wool-growers’ interests.
The Central Wool Committee adheres strictlyto War Precautions (Wool) Regulations.
Yes. Three - One in Albury, one in Hobart, and one in Adelaide. The honorable senator’s expression “ acquiring agents “ is interpreted to mean appraising firms or companies.
No.
Number of wool-dealers’ annual licences issued - (1) for wool season 1917-18, 188; (2) for wool season 1918-19), 350.
No.
See No. 8. 10. (1) Applicant must be either a British subject or of a nationality approved by the Commonwealth Government. (2) He must satisfy the Central Wool Committee as to his respectability and business standing. (3) He must make application to the Central Wool Committee on the prescribed form.
Yes. It is not only highly desirable that the whole of the Western Australian wool clip should be appraised at Fremantle, but practically imperative to carry out the directions of the. Director of Raw Materials.
Yes. That was the case last season, clue to sudden curtailment in shipping; but, when the Central Wool Committee’s stores, now in course of erection, are completed, there will be storage capacity at Fremantle for one complete clip of Western Australian wool, and storage in Perth will be abandoned.
It is a definite instruction from Imperial authorities.
On all State Committees there are two representatives of wool-growers.
The War Precautions (Wool)Regulations provide for two wool-growers, three woolsellers, one wool-buyer, one manufacturer, and one scourer or fellmonger.

page 6757

DEFENCE BILL (No. 3)

Bill read a third time.

page 6757

SERVICE AND EXECUTION OF PROCESS BILL

Bill read a third time.

page 6757

INSTITUTE OF SCIENCE AND INDUSTRY BILL

In Committee (Consideration resumed from 3rd October, vide page 6603) :

Clause 2 (Parts).

Senator GARDINER:
I hope I am not under a misapprehension, but I had an impression that the Minister in charge of the Bill (Senator Russell · New South Wales [3.20].

gave us to understand that, having reached the Committee stage, he would allow the measure to stand over in order to give the State Premiers and other people interested an opportunity of becoming acquainted with its provisions. It would be as well for the Minister to explain the position before proceeding with the measure.

Senator RUSSELL (Victoria- Vice-

President of the Executive Council) [3.21]. - I do not think there is reason for any misapprehension, because, when the Committee stage was reached, I was asked was it the intention of the Government to go on with the Bill, and I said I would hold over further consideration in Committee till next day of sitting. The Bill has been in the hands of the State Premiers since about 14th September.

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

As one who opposed the second reading, I understood the. Minister to indicate that upon the resumption of the debate in Committee he would make a statement to honorable senators, and give some further information with regard to communications with the State Premiers. It is hardly reasonable to ask the Committee to proceed with the discussion of the measure at this stage.

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Shannon). Order ! The honorable senator is not in order in discussing the whole question at this stage of the Bill.

Departments. I am not going to make a second-reading speech now, but I want to say that had I been well enough to contribute to the second-reading debate, I would certainly have opposed the measure at that stage. But as it has got into Committee, I feel sure that the Minister will be acting in conformity with the sense of the Senate if he allows further time to elapse before we proceed to an analytical discussion of the clauses in Committee. I do not know whether it is competent at this stage to report progress and obtain leave to sit again, but, if so, I would respectfully suggest the adoption of that course’.

Senator MILLEN:
New South WalesMinisterfor Repatriation · NAT

– It seems, if I may say so without giving offence, that there is a failure on the part of honorable senators to appreciate the stage which we have reached. When honorable senators assented to the secondreading of the Bill, they assented to its main provisions, and I suggest, therefore, that this is not the stage at which any honorable senator should object to its principles.

Senator Bakhap:

– But before now measures have been defeated in Committee.

Senator MILLEN:

– Yes, and it will be competent for any honorable senator to vote in Committee against any clause to which he objects. And, moreover, there will be a further opportunity, for those who object to the measure to vote against it at the third-reading stage. There never has been, on the part of any Minister, at any rate during late years, a desire to push through the Senate a measure for which the Chamber was not ready. On the contrary, every consideration has been given to the Senate by Ministers, and by the Senate to Ministers. I would suggest, therefore, that having passed the second reading of the Bill, we might properly proceed with the Committee stage on the understanding that consideration be postponed in respect of clauses to which honorable senators object, and regard as vital. Otherwise, we shall be in the posi- tion of having a lot of work thrown on to the Senate in the latter part of the session. I ask honorable senators to proceed with the measure on the understanding that if they wish a particular clause postponed, in anticipation, possibly of a protest from some State authorities, that clause will be postponed. This course will enable us to proceed with the business of the Senate.

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

.- I move-I

That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

I have looked at the Minister’s remarks on the last day of sitting, and find that he has done exactly what he said he would do, namely, hold over the consideration of the Bill for a week. Therefore, I withdraw the suggestion I made that there was to be a postponement of a longer duration. I was under the impression that the State Governments would have an opportunity of considering the Bill, and I think that if we report progress now, and obtain leave to sit again next Wednesday, that opportunity will be afforded them.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 13

NOES: 15

Majority….2

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Motion negatived.

Senator FERRICKS:
Queensland

– I admit that the Vice-President of the Executive Council (Senator Russell) is respecting the arrangement which he made on Thursday last, but it was the general impression amongst honorable senators that a Supply Bill would occupy our attention this week, and that the consideration in Committee of the provisions of this measure would be postponed for another week. Part III. of this Bill deals with the establishment of State Advisory Councils of Science and Industry, and I should like to know whether the State Premiers have been officially notified by the Minister that the Bill has passed its second reading in this Chamber, and that it is now open to suggestions by them. We know that the State Premiers are busy men, and the fact that this measure has been a week before the Senate does not, in my opinion, constitute a sufficient notification to them that its provisions are now open to amendments which they may, perhaps, deem desirable.

Senator Millen:

– The honorable senator has the assurance that the measure has been officially before the State Premiers since the 14th September.

Senator FERRICKS:

– But I anticipated that they would have been formally notified by the Vice-President of the Executive Council that it has now passed its second reading. I should like to know whether that has been done?

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– No charge of discourtesy towards the State Governments can be urged against the Ministry, for the reason that, before this Bill was submitted for the consideration of the Senate, copies of it were forwarded to the State Premiers. As a matter of fact, some of the Premiers had written to us regarding the measure prior to receiving those copies. I have looked up the Ilansard report of the statement which I made on Thursday afternoon last, and find that it quite confirms my own impression of what then occurred. In that publication, I am reported as having said - .

If honorable senators will be good enough to give me the second reading to-day, I shall allow the Bill to go over till next week, in order to give the various State Governments, and individuals interested, full opportunity to criticise the measure.

If there are any clauses in the Bill in respect of which honorable senators think the State Premiers should be afforded additional time for consideration, I have no objection, either to postponing them, or recommitting them at a later stage.

Senator PRATTEN:
New South Wales

– I was one of those who was under the impression that the Minister had consented to the postponement of this Bill for a longer period than a week. I find, however, on reference to Hansard, that the honorable gentleman is keeping faith with the Senate. At the same time, I would point out to him that, although copies of the Bill were sent privately to the Premiers of the States on the 14th September, as late as the 23rd September, the Queensland Premier wrote stating that he had not received a copy of it. We know that the wheels of government “grind exceeding slow,” even if they grind exceeding small; and it is quite on the cards that copies of this measure may have only just reached the State Premiers. I think that a reasonable opportunity should be afforded the Premiers of considering its provisions. If they ignore the communication from the Commonwealth after the lapse of a reasonable time, we shall at least have discharged our duty, and shall be at liberty to proceed with its further consideration.

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Shannon:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I must ask the honorable senator not to discuss that question upon this clause.

Senator PRATTEN:

– The clause is a very comprehensive one, embracing, as it does, the various parts into which the Bill is divided. The Minister in this case has almost created a precedent ‘by consulting the States in matters that affect them and, personally, I am in somewhat of a quandary as to whether we ought to go on with the Bill now or not. However, I see no hurry, and the Minister would he well advised at this early stage to allow the Premiers another week.

Senator MAUGHAN:
Queensland

– If I read now the statement sent to every member of the Senate by the Hon. T. J. Ryan, Premier of Queensland, it may save a great deal of trouble and delay. It is as follows: -

Premier’s Office,

Brisbane, 23rd September, 1918.

Sir,

A Bill embodying the constitution of the Institute of Science and Industries is to be submitted to the Commonwealth Parliament early in the current session.

The executive committee of the present temporary Institute, which is not representative of the States or the varied interests which will be influenced by the establishment of the permanent Institute, recommended to the Prime Minister that the absolute control of the policy and funds of the permanent Institute should be vested in three highly qualified salaried directors, of whom one should be chairman, and that their tenure of office should be fixed by the Act for a lengthened period.

It has been recently announced by Dr. Gellatly that he has been appointed chairman of such directors, and that the status provided for the directors in the Bill was almost as strong as that of High Court Judges.

No provision has been made in the direction of the policy or control of the funds in conjunction with the directors or otherwise for the representation of the States or their educational, commercial, industrial, or other varied interests which will be influenced by this important institution.

I desire to bring under your notice that this State, and probably certain of the other States, do not agree with the proposals, and that it is essential that the States and the interests referred to should be adequately represented and possess some controlling influence in the councils of. the permanent Institute, if established.

It has been announced that the Institute would establish bureaux of information in Sydney and Melbourne, and eventually in every capital of the Commonwealth, and that, in pursuance of the Prime Minister’s scheme of trade organization, three bodies had been created to work in unison, viz. : - The Institute of Science and Industry, the Bureau of Commerce and Industry, and the Federal Board of Trade. Whether all these institutions are to be constituted under the one Bill now proposed to be submitted to the Federal Parliament or under separate Bills has not been stated.

The report and recommendations which were made to the Prime Minister by the executive of the temporary Advisory Council of Science and Industry, andupon which the Bill embodying the proposed constitution is based, have neither been submitted for consideration or approval to the Government or any of the institutions of this State, nor to the State advisory committees of the temporary Institute, the members of which were appointed by Order in Council to safeguard State interests. Consequently, no opportunity has been afforded for a study of the proposed constitution.

The public are under the impression that such interests have been protected by their representatives on the State committees; but this is not so.

You will therefore recognise that, until the proposed draft Bill has been submitted, it is not possible to make any exhaustive criticism thereon.

Your consideration is particularly directed to the following matters when the Bill is introduced to Parliament : -

The necessity for due powers to States and interests in conjunction with the directors.
The limitation of the powers of the Institute of Science and Industry to research and investigation. It will readily be understood that, with a power to administer, there may be confusion with the authority of the States and useless expenditure of revenue.
The control in relation to investigation and research by the State so far as internal matters are concerned. The central control will inevitably be directed from Melbourne, with a probable lack of understanding of local circumstances that will tend to inefficiency, because it is reasonably obvious that there will be an absence of enthusiasm where the State has no part in the control. This State has spent, and is spending, money on scientific work, and it may be prejudicial if the Federal Government, through the offices of the proposed establishment, work in antagonism to the State; an there is evidenceof such intention.

Enclosed for your information is a precis of work done by this State in connexion with prickly-pear and the cattle tick which discloses large expenditure in varied directions, supported by legislative enactments, which have been prepared from time to time, to enable these problemsdto be more effectivelydealt with. The difficulties experienced by any outside body not directly associated with the State Government or the institutions and interests in successfully dealing with intricate problems created from time to time are obvious.

Much has been attempted during the past three years by the temporary Institute of Science and Industry, but with little, if any, new results beyond the holding of conferences and the compilation and distribution of pamphlets. The benefits likely to accrue to the States by the establishment of a permanent Institute are very obscure, and the proposed expenditure thereon is apparently not justified on the results attained by the initial establishment.

I have brought these matters under your notice in the hope that when the Bill is before the Federal Parliament you will feel disposed to use your influence to safeguard State interests.

I have the honour to be, sir,

Your most obedient servant,

J. RYAN, Premier.

Attached is a summary ofState efforts in connexion with the prickly-pear pest, &c. ; but I do not think it necessary to read that now. I submit Mr. Ryan’s statement for the consideration of the Minister.

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

.- I was under the impression that the Minister (Senator Russell) agreed to place himself again in communication with the States, if we allowed the second-reading stage to be taken without further delay. I find that he did not actually say that, although it was the impression conveyed to a number of us. The Minister said this afternoon that the Bill has already been before a number of the States, and that some had not replied;but I find that when Senator Fairbairn was speaking on the second reading, the following took place: -

Senator Russell:

– The States have touched them, but owing to the expense it has been impossible for individual States to make much progress, and all that we propose to do is to link up the three States interested. Have you any objection to that?

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– No, if it is done with the concurrence of the States.

Senator Russell:

– The States have agreed to it.

According to what the honorable senator ! has told us this afternoon, a number of the States have not agreed to it. I was under the impression that the Bill was being held over for a week, in order that those States might have a chance to express their opinions. When replying on the second reading, the Minister also said -

We need, in order to carry out the work before us, the co-operation and help of all the State Governments, all the scientists, and all the organizers we have in Australia..

I hope that the States will contribute a certain amount to the expense to be incurred, and that the Commonwealth will not be found niggardly in assisting to carry on the campaign. - My desire is that we should act in cooperation with the Queensland and New South Wales Governments to secure the eradication of these pests, and make Australia a better, and more prosperous country.

Throughout the debate on the second reading, the Minister gave us to understand that he was in consultation with the States. It would be fair, before we went on with the Bill in Committee-

Senator Millen:

– You know what Mr. Ryan thinks about it.

Senator FOLL:

– I am not particularly concerned with what Mr. Ryan or any one else thinks about it. I am endeavouring to say what I think about it.

Senator Millen:

– Why await a further communication from Mr. Ryan when he has made the view of the Queensland Government very clear?

Senator FOLL:

– There are other States in the Commonwealth besides Queensland, though they are not as important as that State. The Vice-President of the Executive Council -informed honorable senators that the States concurred in this proposal. He told us that the Bill had been sent to the State Premiers, and now we are informed that there has been no reply on the subject from a number of the States. Before we are asked to continue the consideration of this measure, we should know what the State Governments propose to do in connexion with. it.

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– By way of explanation, I may be allowed to say that, as a matter of fact, I appear to have been too courteous on this occasion in my endeavour to secure the co-operation of the

– May he discuss the postponement and not the clause?

The CHAIRMAN:

– Certainly.

Senator GARDINER:

– I shall not discuss the matter any longer lest the Government Whip might think I am “ stone-walling.” I have no desire to take up the time_of the Committee unnecessarily.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4 -

There shall be a Commonwealth Insti tute of Science and Industry which shall consist of three directors, and in each State an Advisory Council of Science and Industry. It shall be a body corporate, with perpetual succession and a common seal and capable of suing and being sued……

Senator BAKHAP:
Tasmania

– This is really the vital clause of the Bill. I am opposed to the adoption of the measure at the present time, and it was only because I was suffering from some physical infirmity that I was not present in the’ Senate to utter a. protest and cast my vote against the second reading. My attitude is not due to any lack of appreciation of scientific investigation in regard to its general value. No man with any pretension to knowledge of what education can effect can ‘be blind to the value of scientific investigation, either from the educational or the practical stand-point. But continual complaint is being made by the public - and in some respects it is very well founded - ‘that there is too great a tendency to impose Departments upon our Commonwealth, machinery where State Departments already exist. In almost every State there is some organization having for its objective the scientific investigation of pests and the pursuit of investigation generally, which may have valuable bearing upon Australian industries. By this measure it is proposed to add to those State Departments a Commonwealth Department. I have read the remarks of Senator Foll upon the Bill, and am in absolute accordance with all that he said. In Australia we have States as large as several European countries, and, although we have nothing approaching the extremes of European climate, yet there are zones of clearly defined and widely varied climatic conditions throughout Australia.

I do not suppose, for example, that any one scientist in Australia could, with notable success, investigate the incidence of the growth of the prickly-pear pest at one extreme of our Commonwealth, and at the same time undertake’ micro-biological investigations for the alleviation of orchard pests in such a temperate ‘State as Tasmania. The Queensland scientist specializes in investigations having for their object the reduction of pests peculiar to the tropic zone; and, similarly, the Tasmanian scientist devotes his attention to. matters especially affecting the cooler country in which he resides. “New South Wales is as large as the territory of France and half that of Spain combined. It has its scientific investigation bureau; and it must be remembered that a very large percentage of the population of the whole of Australia resides in New South Wales. Yet, here, it is proposed to start something which the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) stated would cost halfam’illion sterling for a beginning. I do not say that the money might not, in the long run, be well spent; but I call attention to the huge amounts we are ‘being called, on to find for war purposes alone. The principle of compulsion is about to be imposed in connexion with our subscriptions to war loans. At the same time, it is sought to recklessly -spend every year, under the measure before the Committee, the equivalent of at lea3t the interest on half-a-million of money; .and it is to be in the direction of investigations now being ably pursued by State organizations. Can it be wondered at that the expense of administering the affairs of the Commonwealth increases by leaps and /bounds ? If it were necessary to do something in the various States to expedite their activities, we might well say that the proposed new Federal Department would have some value; but such is not the case. If we have the money to spare, let us subsidize the existing State institutions; and, if we have not the money to do so, it logically follows that we should, not spend it at all ; and, as a fact, we have not got the money.

– The extraction of alcohol from watermelons may be a matter of general scientific interest, but what has such a subject to do with our present national position and requirements? Today, machinery is in existence in the various States, and is equal to all we require in the circumstances. And, as I have just indicated, if we have not the money to subsidize State activities we should not spend it upon the creation of a Commonwealth Department.

– There cannot be mutual action in regard to the investigation of totally different pests, with totally differing climatic locale. As long as we pursue the principle embodied in this measure, so long will the cost of administration of the affairs of 5,000,000 people soar. ‘

The Institute is to have power to give grants in the way of prosecuting research through existing State institutions. It is to have power to advise State bodies in the direction in which they should pursue their investigations. It is to have power - putting it bluntly - to “ teach its grandmother how to suck eggs.”

Senator Russell:

– How to do it scientifically.

Senator BAKHAP:

– What is the use of talking about co-ordination of scientific establishments in respect of States, including Queensland, for example, which is bigger than four or five European countries? To talk of co-ordinating the investigations proceeding throughout the Commonwealth is so much humbug.

I am sorry, indeed, that I did not have the opportunity to vote against the Bill at its second-reading stage, since I believe the whole matter is an unnecessary example of the creation of Commonwealth Departments when State Departments of equal value are already extant.

I intend to move an amendment having for its object, at any rate, during the period of the war, the preclusion of the possibility of saddling the Commonwealth with machinery of this kind. I move -

That after the word “be”, line 1, the words “ established five years after the passing of this Act,” be inserted.

The adoption of this amendment will enable us to know where we are financially and otherwise before any steps are taken in the direction of spending large sums of money for a project of this nature.

Senator Reid:

– You are trying to kill the Bill.

Senator BAKHAP:

– I would have voted against the second reading had I been present, because I am convinced Parliament will be pursuing an unwise course if this measure is adopted, and be adding to the Commonwealth expenditure to meet which we have already to resort to compulsory finance.

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice- president of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

4.23]. - Senator Bakhap’s candour leaves no doubt that the object of his amendment is to kill the Bill. He speaks about duplication and the lack of coordination, and in reply I tell him that the whole object of the Bill is to bring about co-ordination.

Senator Bakhap:

– I did not complain of any lack of co-ordination.

Senator RUSSELL:

– The object of the measure, as I have already emphasized, is to insure co-ordination amongst all the scientists in Australia in dealing with the various problems that will come before them. Queensland is doing magnificent work in combating the tick pest and prickly pear, but unfortunately those pests spread beyond the borders of that State, and it follows therefore that, unless there be co-ordination in other States, notably Kew South Wales, any expenditure by Queensland will be a waste of money. It is this lack of co-ordination that probably has permitted the spread of these pests to a greater extent than would otherwise have been possible, thus constituting a grave danger to Australia. The right way to bring about unity of action in the various States is by means of this Commonwealth. Institute. Senator Bakhap said that probably State officers would be called upon to undertake work in connexion with this Institute. I hope that, if any State officer is good enough to be a leader of this Institution, he will be transferred to the Commonwealth Service, because he will then have a larger sphere of operation.

Senator Bakhap:

– Then the inference is that he is not doing his duty at present.

Senator RUSSELL:

– No. Under the Bill there is power for the GovernorGeneral, which, of course, means the Commonwealth Government, to get into touch with any of the States in regard to any problem they may be interested in. Take prickly pear and the tiek pest asan illustration. Queensland, the Northern Territory, and New South Wales are equally interested in these problems. If Queensland spent £1,000, 000 in the eradication of these pests, and if New South Wales and the Northern Territory failed to cooperate, every penny of Queensland’s expenditure would be absolutely wasted. It will be the duty of the Institute to advise the Minister, who, in turn; will advise the Government that it is necessary to tackle certain problems, and, having got in touch with the States, and gathered information from all parts of the world where research work has been carried out, certain definite proposals will be made. We might say to New South Wales, for instance, that it was proposed to spend £6,000 a year for five years on research work, with a view to eradicating a certain pest; that the Commonwealth contribution w’ould be £3,000, that New SouthW ales would be expected to provide £2,000, and, perhaps, Queensland £1,000 a year. An expenditure of £100,000 in a twelve months campaign against the tick pests in Queensland and New South Wales would be a sheer waste of money. There must be a great deal of continuous scientific research work in order satisfactorily to cope with many of these problems. The whole country will participate in the benefit following a successful campaign. Surely there is no crime in a proposal like this ? There is no desire to dissociate Commonwealth activities from those of the States; but, on the contrary, to insure scientific co-operation. If it is decided to handle the tick problem, the research work will be carried out, not in Melbourne, but in Queensland, which is the home of the tick pest and the prickly pear, the work being subsidized by the Commonwealth Government. At present there is not adequate co-operation between the States. New South Wales might have one proposal to cure the tick pest, and Queensland scientists might advise another course. Naturally both Governments would be guided by their sicentific advisers, and, perhaps, neither course would prove the correct one; but we believe it will be possible by means of the Commonwealth Institute to find the solution of these problems. E ask honorable senators not to be prejudiced against the Bill, or to regard it from a party stand-point. It will be the object of the Government to co-operate with the State authorities irrespective of party views, and it is hoped to get the same co-operation from them, in order to eliminate the various pests to which I have referred, and benefit the future generatioas of Australia. It ia true we cannot definitely state just how we are going to do this, but we are going to try, and no people in the world ever succeeded in doing anything unless they had the courage to make the attempt.

SenatorFOLL (Queensland) [4.33]. - I intend to support the amendment for the same reason that I opposed the second reading of the Bill, namely, on the ground of unnecessary expenditure. I was afraid, when I was speaking last week, that mine would be the voice of one crying in the wilderness for economy, but I find that I was under a misapprehension, and that other honorable senators on this side of the Senate are also desirous of seeing practical economy effected in Government administration. Senator Russell spoke of the need for coordination, and said it was necessary to do certain things in order to make Australia great. I am just as anxious as any other honorable senator to see these problems dealt with effectively, but I am opposed to the proposal, because 1 consider that an unnecessary expenditure will be involved. The Minister has stated that at present there is no co-ordination of effort between the States; but I know that there is in existence a border agreement betweenNew South Wales and Queensland in regard to the tick pest, and that it is impossible for stock to be moved over the border without first having been dipped under proper Government supervision. That is one direction in which coordination is being practised to-day; and I fail to see why mutual action of that kind cannot be extended without the appointment of three highly-paid officials, such as is contemplated by this Bill. I am satisfied that if any State is in a position to confer a benefit upon the Commonwealth by co-operation with it, no effort will be spared by it to bring about the desired result. To suggest otherwise would be ridiculous. Matters in which the States are jointly interested are usually discussed at the Premiers’Con ferences.

Senator Senior:

SenatorFoll. - The opposition to the measure is based on theground of economy.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I shall deal with that phase of the matter presently. The Queensland Government, being a generous Government, had no desire to confine the tick pest to Queensland territory. They desired to spread it over the Commonwealth, and it was because of protests by the other States that the agreement to which Senator Foll has referred was entered into. It is nota scientific agreement in any sense of the term. It is a purely political agreement, and one which was arrived at between the State Premiers. But the Bill which is now under consideration is intendedto co-ordinate the various efforts on the part of the States-

Senator Bakhap:

– “ Co-ordinate “ is like “ Mesopotamia “ - a blessed word.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Then I will endeavour to substitute another word for it.

The endeavour is to get the States and their scientists to put their heads together as a great Commonwealth machine to combat the various pests that affect this country.

There are many things besides pests to deal with. Indeed, I take it that pest eradication will be a comparatively small portion of the work of the Institute when it is established.

Senator Foll:

– If you get rid of the pests, you will be doing a wonderful work.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– We shall. Every State in the Commonwealth for many ‘years has been making disjointed, disconnected, spasmodic efforts to cope with pests. They go on for a certain period in a certain direction with the idea of eradicating some pest. A change of Government takes place, an economical Administration comes into power, some great economist gets up in his place in Parliament, and the money which has been put aside for the purpose is cut off, with the result that the pest has a good time of it forever afterwards. That is one of the effects of the disjointed efforts that have been made in the past so far as science is concerned. Senator Bakhap said money was being spent in following to its source the dragon-fly, or horsestinger, as we have been in the habit of calling it, and he seemed to suggest that some scientist might waste his time and energy in attempting to extract sunbeams from cucumbers, and whisky from watermelons. I should not be surprised, because many scientists have a kink of some kind or other in their brain. There is no telling to what extent scientists will go, although I believe, even if successful, the attempt to extract whisky from watermelons would be unprofitable.

The Minister (Senator Russell) referred to the possibility of an invasion of weevils, which attack wheat. During the last three or four years, since we have been unable to export our wheat, and while we have been storing it by the imperfect methods at our command, due to our lack of scientific knowledge on the subject, we have lost hundreds of thousands of tons of wheat, representing millions of pounds sterling.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Hundreds of thousands of tons?

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. I have seen thousands of tons of wheat carted out from stacks in South Australia alone, and spread on the roadside, or burnt when it could be burnt/ Had the scientists been at work in connexion with that wheat, some valuable by-product might have been discovered. The wheat that has been wasted in this country during the last four years would have paid the cost of this Institute for the next ten years at the least

Senator Foll:

– What guarantee would you have that the Institute would have discovered anything in that connexion?

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– We cannot give guarantees. At any rate, simply to sit down and say that we shall not extend our scientific research, is not the way to find out.

Senator Bakhap:

– Is not the wheat under the authority of the Wheat Pool? Had the Pool no authority to engage scientists ?

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Senator Maughan:

– The Queensland Government are not against the Bill. They only want protection.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I am not sure what position they take up. I read into Mr. Ryan’s letter that he is against the Bill. I do not say that the people of Queensland are against it, because in this matter I do not believe that Mr. Ryan represents them.

We must look to the future scientific development of our industries. The question of the eradication of pests, big though it may be, is comparatively small in relation to the possibilities of the future. It is high time the Federal Parliament carried a measure of this kind. It ought to have been on the statute-book years ago. The States and the Commonwealth should link up their scientific efforts so that Australia may progress and become independent of other countries for much of the goods and materials which she has hitherto drawn from them. It is necessary for our national salvation to develop our industries, and there is no greater force in the development of. the resources of any country than science. The brains, energy, and research of the scientist, if properly and intelligently applied to the problems of the future, will do more than anything else in that direction, t see no reason why the consideration of the Bill should be postponed. I see no reason why an attempt should be made to consult the States on this Bill more than on anyother. The Government, in this matter, are on right lines. There may be a little opposition in the Senate, but those who are opposed to it have as much right to their attitude as I have to mine. After all, it is by honest opposition and fair criticism that we find out the imperfections of a measure. Opposition to any measure tends to improve it as it goes through Parliament. I trust the Minister will persevere with the Bill, and that it will ultimately be carried. If it is, I believe it will be of tremendous benefit to Australia.

Senator Gardiner:

– I wish to raise a point of order as to whether it is competent for Senator Bakhap at this stage to submit an amendment of this nature. If honorable senators will turn to standing order 194 they will find that it provides, dealing with the question “ That this Bill be now read a second time “-

Amendments may be moved to such question by leaving out the word “now” and adding “ this day six months,” which, if carried, shall finally dispose of the Bill; or by referring the Bill to a Select Committee; or the previous question may be moved.

– Then I dissent from your ruling, Mr. Chairman, and, pursuant to the standing order, I hand in my objection in writing. The matter is very important, and is one on which we should have the President’s ruling. I have taken this stand merely to get the matter cleared, up, since the Standing Orders provide, at the second-reading stage, for dealing with the postponement of a Bill, and because I hold that we should not do. in Committee what the Standing Orders state should be done at the second-reading stage. There is only the difference of degree between the six months’ period referred to in the Standing Orders, and in the five years set out in the amendment of Senator Bakhap.

In tl>& Senate:

The Chairman of Committees (Senator Shannon). - I have to report that in Committee, upon clause _4. Senator Bakhap moved, after “be” (line 1) to insert the following words - “ established five years after the passing of this Act “ ; to which Senator Gardiner asked my ruling whether Senator Bakhap was in order in moving his amendment at that stage. I ruled that the honorable senator was in order, whereupon- Senator Gardiner handed in a dissent from my ruling, framed as follows: -

I desire to disagree with the ruling of Mr. Chairman on the ground that an amendment of this nature should have been moved on the second reading ; that it is not open for the Committee to do in an indirect way that which the Standing Orders provide shall be dealt with in the manner provided in standing order 194.

– Certainly I The Committee have the right to negative every clause in the Bill. They could make it a blank sheet of paper, and therefore have a right to insert any amendment they think fit. The matter is entirely for the Committee to decide. I am only concerned with the question of whether the. amendment is in accordance with the Standing Orders and parliamentary practice. I rule that Senator Bakhap is within his rights, and that his amendment is in order.

In Committee:

Senator BAKHAP:
Tasmania

– On the objections taken by the Minister (Senator Russell) to my amendment, it will be remembered that in the course of my remarks I stated that I believed the time was singularly unfortunate in a financial sense for the operation of this measure. I am not going to be placed in a position of having it charged against me that I am opposed to scientific research and scientific education generally. I believe that no member of this Chamber values scientific research and education at a higher standard than I do. But we must remember that this 13 a Federation, and that the activities which this measure allegedly, .and probably honestly, seeks to stimulate, are already in existence, and are being applied vigorously every day of our national life. One would think that the States were jealous legislative entities, and that they were in the habit of erecting a kind of Chinese wall against the progress of scientific investigation. No assertion of the kind could be further removed from the truth. I remember, in connexion with the bitter-pit disease that is troubling Tasmanian Orchardists to the present day, that the Tasmanian Government had recourse to a Victorian scientist, or investigator, in the person of Mr. McAlpine. They took him over to

Tasmania, and lie gave the island orchardists the benefit of some very exhaustive researches, which he carried out there and on the mainland.

Senator Russell:

– Who took him over, and who paid for him?

Senator BAKHAP:

– The Tasmanian Government. Was that not evidence of practical co-ordination between State activities? I do not believe in being a slave to formal phrases, though I know some people can erect a phrase into a kind of fetish, but I remember also that when the Irish potato blight broke out in Tasmania the State Government sent to New Zealand for a man who had had experience of the disease there. He was brought to Tasmania, taken through the affected districts, and a3 a member of the Tasmanian Legislature I helped to vote a considerable sum of money in payment for the investigations.

Senator Russell:

– It was a clear case of co-operation. The Commonwealth paid half and the Tasmanian Government the balance.

Senator BAKHAP:

– And the Commonwealth could do the same now, without creating this unnecessary machinery. That is exactly my point. The Minister knows that I am not offering factious opposition to the measure, but at the risk of repeating myself, I say again that at a time when we are resorting to compulsion to find the financial sinews of war, we should not seek to duplicate State activities or to superimpose a new Commonwealth Department on any State activities.

In the underground- chambers of the Tasmanian Legislature will be found great piles of scientific communications from the Congress library, the proceedings and debates of the Smithsonian Institute, and other similar institutions. Scientific men are cosmopolitan in their correspondence. I venture to- say there is no scientist in Australia, be he never so obscure, who does not receive week by week, and month by month, a most voluminous correspondence from scientific investigators in all parts of the world. In connexion with the Queensland tick pest, one would have thought it was a comparatively late discovery, but twenty years ago, when crossing the Queensland border, 1 had evidence of the fact that there was tick” pest in that country, be cause stock had to be dipped before they were admitted into New South Wales. And we all know that our scientific knowledge with respect to the pest comes from Texas, in the United States.

I freely and frankly admit that the” intention of the measure is a -laudable one, but once more I say that at the present time, when the Commonwealth taxpayers are subject to increasing taxation, and when compulsion” is being resorted to in regard to the Commonwealth’s financial schemes, it is politically criminal for us to duplicate well-established State activities. It is not for me, with so many able representatives from Queensland in this Chamber, to boast of the scientific researches of the great northern State. Abundant evidence of this fact may be found . in the rewards offered to scientific investigators for satisfactory methods of eradicating Queensland tropical or sub-tropical pests. If the Commonwealth Government have money to spend, let them give assistance in this direction. If, however, they have not the money, they should not endeavour to put unnecessary legislation on our statute-book. While the machinery of the Bill may in itself be desirable and commendable, the present is not the time to put it into operation. I am not one of those who seek refuge behind the phrase, “ the time is not ripe,” but I do urge that the Commonwealth Parliament would render itself liable to be placed in a politically criminal light if it authorized the disbursement of this money, not along established channels, but along a new channel which will add to the expense of administration.

In the Northern Territory the Commonwealth Government have under their own jurisdiction an area as large as seven American States. What are they doing with it? Has Commonwealth administration stimulated the people there to grow enough European food for themselves ? Practically everything they use is imported. Do they grow horse feed, rice, or wheat? There is a Territory which under Commonwealth jurisdiction is nothing more than a sink for money. Let economies be effected there, and some of that* money be devoted to promoting scientific investigations in the Territory. In the Capital City Territory also there is room for scientific activities for the destruction of rabbits.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I was there last week, and I saw only one rabbit in the whole of the Territory.

Senator BAKHAP:

– Well, I remember reading in the press a few days ago that the rabbits had made their appearance in the Capital Territory. Australia territorially is equal to the superficies of the United States, but yet we have only six States. It is true that we have not the population of the United States, but when we have, no doubt many of our problems will have been satisfactorily dealt with.

– I admit, Mr. Chairman, that I deserve the reproof, and that my remarks are not relevant, but I am endeavouring to show that coordination may be valuable or valueless, and, indeed, sometimes it may be pernicious. Variety in scientific investigation, and in research work generally, may be that versatility needed to produce the desired result. We may have three or four, or even seven or more, directors of this proposed Institute, but the Director himself may exercise a paralyzing influence on the genius of investigators in the various Departments. There is no royal road in science. It is only by studious experimentation and well-considered research that valuable results may be obtained. It would be a dangerous innovation for the Director of the Institute to say to scientific investigators, “You are proceeding on wrong lines. You must work along lines suggested by me.”

There is nothing valuable in the Minister’s assertion that co-ordination is imperative. I repeat that the Northern Territory, which is under Commonwealth jurisdiction, is supposed to be fertile and blessed with an abundant rainfall suitable for the growth of dozens of tropical productions. The Commonwealth Government have abundant sphere for their scientific activities, and until they can show better results there they will not be justified in creating an Institute which will override existing State activities. I really believe the best way to develop our tropical territories would be to give independent representation to the people who are interested in their progress, and that scientific experiments and activities should be directed on the spot instead of from the Commonwealth Capital thou: sands of miles away. That is my prognostication in regard to Australian political and national development. In the United States of America there are dozens of scientific departments of research.

Senator Maughan:

– But they have one central organization.

Senator BAKHAP:

– Yes, and they have over 100,000,000 people in the United States.

Senator Maughan:

– But the principle is the same.

Senator BAKHAP:

Senator SENIOR:

– In discussing the motion for the second reading of this Bill, I pointed out how Queensland molasses might be profitably utilized. I showed how potash might be extracted from them, thus making us independent of supplies from Germany. We cannot afford to close our eyes to these vast possibilities. When Senator Bakhap urges that this is not the time to establish the projected Institute of Science and Industry, seeing that we are about to enforce subscriptions to our war loans, my reply is that it is the time, above all others, when we should take action in the direction indicated. I trust that the amendment will be negatived.

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

.- During the course of this debate a considerable amount of light has been thrown upon the activities of the States in the direction of eradicating recognised pests and of developing scientific research. I have already pointed out how the Queensland Government have endeavoured to deal with various pests peculiar to that State, and Senator Bakhap, in the course of his eloquent address, showed that years ago Tasmania also made an equally serious attempt to effectively combat certain pests and to promote scientific research generally. It is not correct, as Senator Senior seems to imagine, that I and others are opposing the Bill because we are against scientific research. No one here is more anxious than I am to see pests eradicated, and science progress in this . country. I believe the development of science in a country stands for the development of the country itself, and insures its future prosperity. But. I shall always protest, as I am protesting now, against the duplication of offices, and against the Commonwealth Government spending money that should be spent by the States. I am against the Commonwealth taking activities away from the States when the States are discharging them satisfactorily. I have here a summary of State efforts in relation to certain questions in Queensland, and when I have quoted it, honorable senators will see that the State Governments are not simply sitting back and doing nothing, as the Minister (Senator Russell) would have us believe. The State Governments are just as interested as is the Commonwealth Government in the eradication of pests. No matter which side the Government come from, it is not likely that they will let an opportunity pass of dealing with a question that affects their own State, nor are they likely to quibble over the expenditure . of a few pounds, or to be influenced by petty State jealousies when the welfare of their State is at stake. I do not believe such petty jealousies exist between the States, as one honorable senator would like us to believe. I am confident that politics in the States have not reached such a stage that one Government is jealous of the other regarding the discovery of scientific methods of dealing with a pest that affects a number of the States. State Governments would always be willing to cooperate, and New South Wales, South Australia, and Queensland, are cooperating now in regard to the eradication of the tick. The following is a summary of what has been done in Queensland in recent years in relation to the prickly pear : -

Distinctive legislation has been passed for the encouragement of selection of land affected with prickly-pear and the consequent clearing thereof. The total area’ selected under these conditions to 31st December, 1917, is 4,657,028 Acres*

The Crown has the right to require any holder of a pastoral holding or selection to destroy pear within a specified period, or the lease may be forfeited, but the difficulties surrounding each case are recognised and consideration is given thereto.

Senator Reid:

– And it is not enforced.

Senator FOLL:

– I think the honorable senator is quite wrong.

Senator Reid:

– “Why is the prickly pear spreading all over the place, if that power is enforced?

Senator FOLL:

– Even if it is spreading, the experts in the Queensland Department of Agriculture and Stock are doing all they possibly can to prevent it. They are doing exactly what the Minister intimated would be done if this Board of Directors were appointed. The State Departments have made quite a number of experiments, and one was giving satisfactory results just prior to the war; but, unfortunately, the war made the_ particular commodity they were using almost unprocurable. The next paragraph should appeal to the Committee, because the Minister stated that when the new Board of Directors was established, the Government would endeavour to obtain from other parts of the world the best possible advice on the eradication of pests.

The State Government has twice offered rewards for the discovery of an effective means of destruction: the first occasion, £5,000; second occasion, £10,000. Over 400 claims were submitted, many of which were fantastic. Every encouragement was given where there was a possibility of success.

Evidently, therefore, the State Administration has not spared money in its efforts to procure the best advice possible. If the Queensland Government were unable to secure the desired result with a reward of £10,000, it is not likely that any action of the Commonwealth Government in offering a similar reward will meet with more success. If the States were neglecting their duties, it would be time for the Commonwealth Government to step in, but this document conclusively proves that Queensland Governments, past and present, have made honest attempts to deal with the pests that are causing such ravages. The statement continues -

Poisons for destruction of prickly-pear are carried free on railways.
In 1911 a scientific Board of Advice was appointed, and travelled to all countries in the world where prickly-pears are existent to endeavour to find out a means of controlling the pear by insect enemies or parasitic diseases. The cost of the Commission was £6,200.
A properly-equipped Experiment Station was established in 1912, where many thousands of experiments were made. The officer in charge claimed to have discovered, in arsenic acid, a more effective and cheaper poison than any other. The total expenditure on the Experiment Station, until the time it was closed, owing to the cost of material through the war, was £6,012.

An arsenic mine is being developed now in Queensland, and the best results are hoped for. I trust that it will be successful, because it will help to a great extent in dealing with the curse.

Wild cochineal insects have been introduced to Queensland to destroy a species of pear that they are able to destroy
It was the intention to import for the experimental purposes other insects and diseases; but the institution of the Commonwealth Institute of Science and Industry was the cause of this intention being held in abeyance. ‘
The State Government lias offered the Experiment Station, with all its scientific implements, &>c, to the Commonwealth Government to continue the investigations through the Institute of Science and Industry.
Many experiments have .been made for the utilization of prickly-pear in several ways, and particularly as fodder in dry times. Considerable experiments were carried on in relation to the latter aspect, which were successful so far as they went. The cost of these experiments was £2,909, and a pamphlet has been issued on the subject.
The State Government is initiating the manufacture of two essential elements in the destruction of the pear - arsenic and common salt. The early arrangements in connexion with the arsenic mine are already in progress, and inquiries are being made concerning the manufacture of salt at a low cost.
The expenditure under the Lands Act amounts to about £17,000 in relation to prickly-pear, and other Departments have also sPent considerable sums of money.

Unfortunately, all these efforts to eradicate the prickly pear have not been as successful as could be wished; but, apparently, things are on a somewhat better footing now, and there is hope that the trouble will be dealt with more satisfactorily in the near future.

I have referred to the border agreement - between the Northern Territory, South Australia, Queensland, and New South Wales, to cope with the tick. Its effect is that practically no animal infested with tick can pass from one State to another. The following information is supplied by Mr. Ryan on that subject: -

Between the years 1891 and 1899 the cattle tick spread rapidly throughout Queensland. This was caused primarily by the passage of cattle from the heavily infested districts to the principal markets and meat-works at Rockhampton, Brisbane, and Townsville. The rapid extension of the area infested was mainly due to the fact that in the early nineties it was impracticable to dip, as the majority of the runs in the unsettled districts were unfenced, and the value of cattle had depreciated to an amount only equal to the value of the hides.

Operations in controlling the pest were, therefore, practically restricted to the thickly infested districts and in the prevention of an extension to the western areas and to adjoining States.

Until the active co-operation of stockowners was obtained, the methods employed were those of quarantine and a gradual extension of dipping operations. The calls made upon the Stock Department were very heavy, and the funds raised by assessment were inadequate to provide for the initiation of a vigorous campaign, which would have necessitated an expenditure of some hundreds of thousands of pounds.

A vigorous campaign is now being waged againBt the_ tick menace, and the stockownersinclosely settled Southern districts are co-operating with the Department in carrying out cleansing operations in areas adjoining territory not infested. The Warwick area is now considered free from ticks, and other districts embraced in the scheme have been materially cleansed.

There are at present three cleansing areas in this State, namely -

The Coolangatta area, adjoining the New South Wales border at Tweed Head;

The Helidon area, which forms a buffer to clean the. Darling Downs and Western Districts;

The Southern Burnett area, comprising the districts of Kingaroy and Nanango.

I have shown that the States are not idle, and that practical co-operation does exist between them. There is no reason why that co-operation should not be continued, with the help of the Commonwealth, without the introduction of a new board and new machinery. Surely it is possible to bring the machinery at present in existence under one head without creating further expensive machinery, which is unwarranted, and simply means duplicating the work that is already being satisfactorily carried out.

Senator GRANT:
New South Wales

– It seems to me that when introducing this Bill, the Vice-President of the Executive Council (Senator Russell) failed to remove a great stumbling- block in the way of its progress. A number of honorable senators seem to be convinced that one result of the measure, if passed, will be to duplicate the work now being done by different State authorities, and consequently to duplicate the expense of that work. If that is so, the Bill should not be further considered. If, on the other hand, the Minister can make it quite clear that the work and expense now undertaken by the State authorities will not be duplicated by the Commonwealth Government, and that the effect will be to bring the different bodies of scientific men employed in the States into cooperation with a central body established by the Commonwealth, he may look for some progress with the measure. It is inevitable that a central establishment must be set up if the Commonwealth is to take this matter in hand. That must involve the establishment of a highly-trained and highly -paid central committee; and before honorable senators pass this Bill, it is essential that the Minister should make it perfectly clear that it will not mean a mere duplication of efforts now being put forward by the State Governments. “We were assured years ago that if we only had Federation, the cost of government in Australia would be greatly reduced. Many people thought that the abolition of State Governors and State Parliaments would follow Federation almost immediately, and that consequently the cost of government after Federation would be merely nominal compared to what it was before. But nothing of the kind has happened. We have no assurance that if this measure is passed the work now being done by the State Governments in this direction will be discontinued. On the contrary, we have good reason to believe that it will be continued independently of the Commonwealth Government, as it is at present.

Senator Fairbairn:

– Undoubtedly it will.

Senator GRANT:

– It may be that the pests are so numerous and vigorous that it will require all the efforts of both State and Commonwealth Governments to successfully combat them; but, so far, we have not been furnished with information to prove that that is so.

Progress reported.

page 6783

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Senator MILLEN:
New South WalesMinister for Repatriation · NAT

– I move -

That the Senate at its rising adjourn until Wednesday next.

In submitting the motion, I should like to say, in explanation of a statement I made last week, that the financial measure which I anticipated would reach the Senate before the close of last week, is not likely to reach us before Wednesday next.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned at 6.25 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 10 October 1918, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1918/19181010_SENATE_7_86/>.

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Senate10 October 1918

PETITION

Entertainments Tax

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY STRIKE

Senator FAIRBAIRN:VICTORIA

Senator PEARCE:Minister for Defence · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

QUESTION

RECOGNITION OF GALLANTRY

Senator BAKHAP:TASMANIA

The PRESIDENT:

Senator BAKHAP:

Senator MILLEN:Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

QUESTION

FOREIGN NAMES

Senator GARDINER:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator PEARCE:NAT

Senator LONG:TASMANIA

Senator PEARCE:

Senator Long:

Senator PEARCE:

QUESTION

INTER-STATE COMMISSION

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator MILLEN:NAT

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Senator FOLL:QUEENSLAND

Senator PEARCE:NAT

Senator MILLEN:NAT

BEER EXCISE BILL

PAPERS

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Senator GARDINER:

Senator MILLEN:NAT

Senator NEEDHAM:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator RUSSELL:Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

QUESTION

MIDLAND RAILWAY COMPANY : PAPER

Senator GRANT:

Senator MILLEN:NAT

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA HOUSE

Senator GRANT:

Senator MILLEN:

QUESTION

PAPER CONTROLLER

Senator MAUGHAN:QUEENSLAND

Senator MILLEN:NAT

Senator MAUGHAN:

Senator MILLEN:

Senator Long:

Senator MILLEN:

Senator Needham:

Senator Maughan:

Senator MILLEN:

QUESTION

WOOL POOL

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator MILLEN:NAT

DEFENCE BILL (No. 3)

SERVICE AND EXECUTION OF PROCESS BILL

INSTITUTE OF SCIENCE AND INDUSTRY BILL

Senator GARDINER:I hope I am not under a misapprehension, but I had an impression that the Minister in charge of the Bill (Senator Russell · New South Wales [3.20].

Senator FOLL:Queensland

Senator PRATTEN:New South Wales

Senator Russell:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:Victoria

Senator RUSSELL:VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator MAUGHAN:Queensland

Senator Russell:

Senator MAUGHAN:

Senator Russell:

Senator BAKHAP:Tasmania

Senator MILLEN:New South WalesMinisterfor Repatriation · NAT

Senator Bakhap:

Senator MILLEN:

Senator GARDINER:New South Wales

Senator FERRICKS:Queensland

Senate
10 October 1918

Senator FAIRBAIRN:
VICTORIA

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Defence · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator BAKHAP:
TASMANIA

Senator MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator GARDINER:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator LONG:
TASMANIA

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator MAUGHAN:
QUEENSLAND

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator GARDINER:
I hope I am not under a misapprehension, but I had an impression that the Minister in charge of the Bill (Senator Russell · New South Wales [3.20].

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

Senator PRATTEN:
New South Wales

Senator FAIRBAIRN:
Victoria

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator MAUGHAN:
Queensland

Senator BAKHAP:
Tasmania

Senator MILLEN:
New South WalesMinisterfor Repatriation · NAT

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator FERRICKS:
Queensland

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator PRATTEN:
New South Wales

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Shannon:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator MAUGHAN:
Queensland

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator SENIOR:
South Australia

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator BAKHAP:
Tasmania

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice- president of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT