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Senate
12 November 1941

16^th Parliament · 1^st Session

LEAVE OF ABSENCE
SENATOR SWORN
QUESTION
- SUPPLIES AT DARWIN
WOOL APPRAISEMENT
- Albany - Townsville
APPLES AND PEARS
- Report of Committee
QUESTION
- CONTROL OF PRIVATE BANKS
QUESTION
- AIRCRAFTMANUFACTURE
PREFERENCE TO RETURNED SOLDIERS
QUESTION
- TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION WITH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
QUESTION
- EX-SERVICE MEN
QUESTION
- RATIONING OF RAILWAY TRAVELLING
QUESTION
- SERVICE PENSIONS
QUESTION
- VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS
QUESTION
- RAIL LINK BETWEEN ALICE SPRINGS AND BIRDUM
QUESTION
- MIGRATION FROM TASMANIA
QUESTION
- POTATOES
QUESTION
- RUTHERFORD MUNITIONS FACTORY
QUESTION
- OFFICIAL HISTORY OF AUSTRALIA IN THE WAR OF 1914-18;
QUESTION
- INCOME TAX
QUESTION
- WHEAT INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES AND BUDGET PAPERS 1941-42 (REVISED)
DISTINGUISHED VISITOR
ESTIMATES AND BUDGET PAPERS 1941-42 (REVISED)
ADJOURNMENT
JOINT COMMITTEE ON WAR EXPENDITURE
JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY
JOINT COMMITTEE ON PROFITS
JOINT COMMITTEE ON RURAL INDUSTRIES
ADJOURNMENT
- Refining of Crude Oil
PAPERS

The President (Senator the Hon. J. Cunningham) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 228

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motion (by Senator Clothier). - by leave - agreed to -

That leave of absence for one month be granted to Senator Lamp on account of ill heal th.

Senator JAMES McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

– by leave - I move -

That leave of absence for one month be granted to Senator Uppill onaccount of ill health.

When Senator Uppill was on his way to Canberra he was taken ill, and it was necessary for him to return to his home in Adelaide, but I am glad to be able to report that his condition has considerably improved.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 228

SENATOR SWORN

Senator Allan Nicoll MacDonald made and subscribed the oath of allegiance.

page 228

QUESTION

SUPPLIES AT DARWIN

Senator ARMSTRONG:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the grave transport difficulties now experienced in forwarding supplies to Darwin, will the Minister for the Interior inform the Senate whether the. Government will consider the provision of transport aeroplanes, in order that fresh fruit and vegetables and essential medical supplies may always be on hand there?

Senator COLLINGS:
QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1937

– That matter is now receiving serious consideration.

page 228

WOOL APPRAISEMENT

Albany - Townsville

Senator E B JOHNSTON:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Can the

Minister representing the Minister for Commerce state whether the decision of the Fadden Government to have portion of this year’s wool clip appraised at Albany, Western Australia, has been carried into effect? If it has not, can the Minister furnish any information on the matter?

Senator FRASER:
Minister for External Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The appraisement of wool at Albany has been under consideration since the formation of the present Government, and I endeavoured at the earliest possible opportunity to give effect to a part of the decision reached by the previous Government. If the appraisement of wool is not taking place at Albany at present, it is due to the awkward situation brought about by the unpreparedness of the wool brokers in Western Australia to appraise wool at that centre; but I understand that even that difficulty has now been overcome.

Senator COOPER:
QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

Is it a fact that arrangements have been made at Albany, Western Australia, to enable growers to have their wool appraised at that centre, thereby saving the freight to Fremantle ?
If so, will similar conditions be grunted atTownsville, north Queensland, allowing growers to have their wool appraised in Townsville with a corresponding saving of the freight to Brisbane?

Senator FRASER:

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answer : - l and 2. The Government has decided to conduct wool appraisements at Albany and arrangements to this end are at present being made. The question of conducting wool appraisements at other centres in Australia will be considered.

page 229

APPLES AND PEARS

Report of Committee

Senator FRASER:
Minister for External Territories · Western Australia · ALP

. -I lay on the table the following paper: -

Report, together with minutes of evidence, of Committee of Senatorsand Members of the House of Representatives appointed by the Government to report upon matters connected with the Apple andPear Board and the disposal of the apple and pear crop.

The committee recommends that an acquisition scheme should remain in operation for the duration of the war, and it submits a number of suggestions for improving the arrangements now in operation. The Government is giving consideration to the committee’s recommendations, and as soon as the policy to be adopted for handling the new season’s apple and pear crop has been decided upon, an announcement will be made.

page 229

QUESTION

CONTROL OF PRIVATE BANKS

Tabling of Regulations

Senator McLEAY:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Has the attention of the Leader of the Senate been drawn to an article in a section of to-day’s Sydney press in relation to proposed regulations to control private banks, in which the following statement appeal’s? : -

The Government fears an Opposition attack will be lodged in the Senate, and plans are being made to postpone the tabling of regulations until after the Senate adjourns for Christmas.

Will the Govern merit give an assu rance to the Parliament that all regulations promulgated will be tabled without delay, so that the elected representatives of the people will have an opportunity to take any action that they consider necessary?

Senator COLLINGS:
QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1937

– The Leader of the Opposition knows the procedure in regard to these matters.He may accept my assurance that, unlike the Government which it has succeeded, the present Government will not permit any undue delays in those matters.

page 229

QUESTION

AIRCRAFTMANUFACTURE

Senator E B JOHNSTON:

– Will the

Government avail itself of the advantages presented by Western Australia for the construction of aircraft, and, if so, howsoon ?

Senator CAMERON:
Minister for Aircraft Production · VICTORIA · ALP

– The Government has this matter under consideration, and upon receipt of reports from the experts and the completion of negotiations overseas, an announcement on the subject willbe made.

page 229

PREFERENCE TO RETURNED SOLDIERS

SenatorCOLLETT asked the Minister representingthe Prime Minister, upon notice-

Will the Government endorse the previous Government’s clear declaration of a policy of preference in employment to members of the Australian forces returning from active service abroad, and also implement it by taking immediate steps to - (a) amend the Commonwealth Public Service Act; (b) consult the State Governments with a view to the introduction of a uniform and comprehensive system of preference applicable to both State services and private industry?

SenatorCOLLINGS.- The Prime Minister has supplied the following answer : -

As the honorable senator is aware, daring the terms of office of the previous Governments consultations took place with the State Governments on the question of a uniform policy of preference in employment to members of the Australian Forces returning from active service abroad. My Government has the matter prominently under notice, and will shortly review the whole position in the light of the views and information submitted.

page 230

QUESTION

TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION WITH WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator COLLETT:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it the intention of the Government to proceed at once with the plan of the Menzies Government for an improvement of telephone communications between Western Australia and the eastern States?

Senator ASHLEY:
Minister for Information · NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– It is the intention to proceedwith the installation of additional telephone and telegraph channels between Adelaide and Perth as soon as the necessary materials are available. Due to the effect of war-time conditions on deliveries and the need for giving priority to important defence communication requirements, some little time will elapse before all the materials required for this large project can be secured. Work has, however, already commenced on certain sections, and it is hoped to undertake the main portion during the early part of 1942. The importance of augmenting the existing facilities between Perth and Adelaide is fully recognized, and the honorable senator may rest assured that the work will be completed at the earliest possible date.

page 230

QUESTION

EX-SERVICE MEN

Vocation al Training.

Senator COLLETT:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice -

With regard to the acknowledged need fora system of vocational training for certain members of the forces who will return from active service abroad: (1 ) Has the Minister perused the reports on this subject prepared fey direction of the previousGovernment; (2) if so, what steps does he propose to take to implement the recommendations contained in those reports ?

Senator ASHLEY:
ALP

– The Minister for Labour and National Service has supplied the following answers : -

Yes.
This matter is at present receiving the attention of a sub-committee of Cabinet. In the meantime, arrangements have already been completedfor an interim scheme of vocational trainingrecommended in the reports referred to.

page 230

QUESTION

RATIONING OF RAILWAY TRAVELLING

SenatorCOLLETT asked the Minister representing the Minister for Transport, upon notice -

In view of the congested conditions existing in regard to passenger traffic on the mainrailway lines of the Commonwealth, will the Government give consideration to a scheme for rationing railway travelling so that nonessential journeys, eg., attendances at race meetings, may be eliminated?

Senator KEANE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · VICTORIA · ALP

– The Minister for Transport has supplied the following answer : -

The question askedby Senator Collett in regard to the congested conditions existing in the passenger traffic on the main railway lines of the Commonwealth is one which is controlled by the Department of the Interior. Onlyin cases of emergency would his complaint come under the control of the Department of Transport and actionhas now been taken to prepare suitable regulations for the control of transport in emergency in which power will be given to exercise priority in both railway passenger and goods transportation should the necessity arise.

page 230

QUESTION

SERVICE PENSIONS

Senator COOPER:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

In view of the statement appearing in the press that there will be an increasein the amount of the invalid and old-age pension (suggested) to £15s. per week, will the Government also increase the amount of the service pension paid to certain classes of returned soldiers to the same amount and from the same date as the invalidand old-age pension increase?

Senator CAMERON:
ALP

– The Minister for Repatriation states that the matter is under consideration.

page 230

QUESTION

VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS

Senator BRAND:
VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Army, upon notice -

Will the Minister ascertain if there is any reason for believing that the volunteer defence corps or home guard(as it is now called)is becoming a farce because of the lack of equipment, paucity of instructors, and absence of guidance and direction?

Senator KEANE:
ALP

– The Minister for the Array has supplied the following answer : -

There is no justification for the suggestion contained in the honorable senator’s question. I am advised that approximately 900 members of the Volunteer Defence Corps did excellent work on large scale exercises held recently in western Victoria. Manuals incorporating the latest training doctrine have been prepared and distributed. Instructors have been trained and equipment as available is being issued.

page 231

QUESTION

RAIL LINK BETWEEN ALICE SPRINGS AND BIRDUM

Senator BRAND:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Army, upon notice -

Will the Minister give consideration to the construction of the vital rail link between Alice Springs and Birdum as a contribution to national defence?

Senator KEANE:
ALP

– The Minister for the Army has supplied the following answer : -

Consideration has been given to the construction of the rail link between Alice Springs and Birdum. The suggested link would involve approximately 620 miles of new construction. The cost of such construction would amount to between £5,000,000 and £5,500,000, necessitating supply of upwards of 05,000 tons of steel rails, fishbolts, and in addition to approximately 1,500,000 wooden sleepers, or, if steel sleepers were used, approximately 50,000 tons of steel. The estimated time of construction is three years. In addition to the heavy capital expenditure, the work would require a considerable time to complete (apart from the difficulty in obtaining supply of necessary steel and sleepers), and consequently its value as a defence proposal to meet a national emergency that might arise in the near future, has insufficient merit in relation to other necessary projects. With the recent completion of the construction of the road between Alice Springs and Birdum, the capacity for movement over this section is equal to the maximum capacity of each of the railway sections at each end of the road, i.e., Quorn-Alice Springs railway and Birdum-Darwin railway.

page 231

QUESTION

MIGRATION FROM TASMANIA

Senator LAMP:
through Senator Clothier

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

What has been the population drift from Tasmania during the present year?
Is it a fact that the people leaving Tasmania are trained workers, educated and taught their trades by the State of Tasmania?
If so, will the Government set up an economic committee for the purpose of inquiring into ways and means of arresting this drift of population?

Senator KEANE:
ALP

– The Treasurer has supplied the following answers: -

The net civil migration from Tasmania in the year ended the 30th June, 1941, was - Males, 1,872; females, 1,352; total, 3,224. If natural increase be taken into account, the net change in civil population waa - Males, -014; females, +32; total -582.
No information is available as to the occupations or education of civil migrants interstate.
It would not be opportune to institute an inquiry of this kind at the present time.

page 231

QUESTION

POTATOES

Marketing Arrangements

Senator LAMP:
through Senator Darcey

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What are the present marketing arrangements for potatoes?
Does the Government intend to make a statement in the near future in regard to the marketing of the 1942 crop?

Senator FRASER:
ALP

-The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers : -

Marketing arrangements for potatoes have not been controlled by the Commonwealth, apart from the supervision exercised by the Prices Commissioner. The Victorian Government has, however, instituted control of marketing of Victorian potatoes.
It is not the intention of the Commonwealth. Government to intervene in connexion with the marketing of the 1942 potato crop unless unforeseen circumstances arise.

page 231

QUESTION

RUTHERFORD MUNITIONS FACTORY

Senator ARNOLD:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development, upon notice -

Will the Minister inform the Senate^ what progress has been made with the erection of the munitions factory at Rutherford, and further, when it IB hoped to have the factory in production?

Senator FRASER:
ALP

– The Minister for Supply and Development has supplied the following answer: -

This matter is dealt with by the Minister for Munitions, who has furnished the following reply : -

Approximately 15 per cent, of the buildings have been completed to date. Considerable progress is anticipated during the next three months and it is hoped that the factory will be in production in six months’ time.

page 232

QUESTION

OFFICIAL HISTORY OF AUSTRALIA IN THE WAR OF 1914-18;

Senator ARMSTRONG:

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice-

Is it a fact that Dr. Charles Edward Bean has completed, after 22 years, The Official History of Australia in the War of 1914-181
If so, will the Government recognize this achievement in a fitting manner?

Senator COLLINGS:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · ALP

– The answers are as follows : -

Yes.
That may be safely left in the hands of the Government.

page 232

QUESTION

INCOME TAX

Collection from Soldiers.

Senator AYLETT:
TASMANIA

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

Has any arrangement been made for the return of income tax (if any) illegally collected from soldiers in camp during the regime of the previous Government?

Senator KEANE:
ALP

– The Treasurer has supplied the following answer : -

The question evidently relates to instalments which have been deducted from the pay of home service personnel for the purpose of meeting any income tax which will be payable by the soldiers concerned. The amounts deducted do not represent tax which has been paid by those soldiers. The Income Tax Assessment Act and the departmental procedure make full provision for refunding all amounts in excess of the tax payable.

The Department of the Army was instructed in September last that adjustments must be made in any case where the instalments deducted had not been calculated in accordance with instructions.

page 232

QUESTION

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Increased Payment - Nos. 3 and 4 Pools

Senator UPPILL:
through Senator James MoLachlan

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

Will the Minister recommend that for the forthcoming wheat crop an increased payment be made above the 3s. lod. guaranteed under the wheat stabilization scheme, and commensurate with the increased cost of production estimated at 3d. a bushel?
Does the Government propose to make a further payment to farmers on the No. 3 and the No. 4 Wheat Pools before the forthcoming harvest?

Senator FRASER:
ALP

-The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers : -

The decision of the previous Government to pay a guaranteed price of 3s. lOd. a bushel for bagged wheat will noi be reversed in respect of the forthcoming crop.
A further advance of 3d. a bushel on wheat in No. 4 Pool was announced last week.

page 232

QUESTION

ESTIMATES AND BUDGET PAPERS 1941-42 (REVISED)

Debate resumed from the 29th October (vide page 11), on motion by Senator Keane -

That the following papers be printed: - “Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure (Revised) and Estimates of Expenditure for Additions, New Works, Buildings, &c. (Revised), for the year ending the 30th June, 1942;” and “Budget 1941-42 (Revised) Papers presented by the Honorable J. B. Chifley, M.P., in connexion with the revision of the Budget 1941-42.”

– I do think that they are worth it. I have quoted these figures merely to support and justify the Fadden Government’s decision that the £1 ls. should be given in the form of deferred pay. At the last general elections, the Labour party promised to increase invalid and old-age pensions to 25s. a week. Members of the now defunct non-Communist Labour party, including the two “ A’s “ opposite, outbid their colleagues and promised 30s. a week. In view of our heavy existing commitments and even heavier future commitments in connexion with this war, this is no time to increase social services. During the five-year period from 1936 to 1941, the cost of invalid and old-age pensions increased from £12,797,726 to £17,366,335 a year1 - a difference of more than £4,500,000, and commitments in this budget will bring these payments up to the staggering total of £20,000,000 a year, which means that the increase during the past six years has been more than £7,000,000. We are informed that in a supplementary budget the Government will increase invalid and old-age pensions to 25s. a week, but I shall not say any more about that until the supplementary budget is introduced. Having regard to the cost of living allowance, and the increase of prices due to inflationary tendencies and other factors, we can appreciate what the figure will be when the war is over. The number of invalid and old-age pensioners has steadily increased from 287,235 in 1936 to 335,681 in 1941- a difference of 48,446. In view of this ever-increasing burden, the Menzies Government in its national insurance scheme provided for the payment of pensions on a contributory basis. I urge the present Government to give serious consideration to the introduction, at the earliest possible date, of a similar scheme.

It is interesting to note the very convincing comments made by the New Zealand Minister for Finance, Mr. Nash, in Sydney, on the 6th November last. I propose to quote what that gentleman said, because he has had considerable financial experience. The Labour Govern- ment of New Zealand should be given credit by the people of all parts of the British Empire, for what it has achieved. I mention this with the object of urging my Labour friends opposite to measure up to what has been done in our sister dominion. The report of Mr.Nash’s speech is as follows: -

In an address to the Legacy Club to-day, the New Zealand Minister for Finance and Customs(Mr. Nash) emphasized that New Zealand was financing most of its war effort by taxation. He said that conscription was being administered in New Zealand as impartially as possible by the Government, some members of which had gone to gaol during the last war because of their opposition to conscription.

He warned Australia and New Zealanders against the danger of complacency, and expressed doubt whether the people ofeither country yet realized fully the magnitude and the possible consequences of the great issues involved in the war,

The Labour Government in New Zealand realized in 1939 that social reforms and ideals, justly regarded as urgent, must become secondary to the conduct of the war. It decided that the people who remained behind must do with less so that the men who went to fight might have more, it decided that no goods must be imported from abroad unless they were necessary to the war effort. Imports had been cut very seriously, but the people wore not suffering unduly.

I commend Mr. Nash on having had the courage to make that statement, which I think is very much to the point.

In discussing the budget I have no wish to weary the Senate unnecessarily, but, in view of the fact that provision is made for a record expenditure of £325,000,000, and for unduly high taxation in certain directions, I propose to cite comparative income-tax figures for Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. This budget imposes a most vicious tax on a few people in Australia who are earning large incomes.

Senator Arthur:

– Large combines.

Senator McLEAY:

– The honorable senator is talking nonsense. I am dealing with the personal incomes of individuals. At a later stage I shall quote some figures, which should make the honorable senator realize that theoftquoted statement about a group of wealthy men ruling this country is all nonsense and contrary to facts. The following comparison of income-taxrates in this country, New Zealand, and Great

Britain, is very interesting and illuminating:

I repeat that these vicious attacks at this stage on a comparatively few people in Australia will inflict great hardship. These persons have made commitments and have contributed to Commonwealth loans, and they are again asked to contribute to loans. It is estimated by Treasury officials that of a total of 3,000,000 persons in Australia in 1940-41 who were in receipt of incomes, only 13,600 received incomes over £2,000 a year. Throughout Australia, only 2,100 persons received incomes over £5,000 a year during 1940-41. A taxpayer without dependants with an actual taxable income of £250 a year pays in income tax only half of the amount extracted from his counterpart in Great Britain and pays only threequarters of the rate applicable in New Zealand. On an actual taxable income of £400, Australia asks for £60, whereas New Zealand says”£70 please” and England gets £111. On incomes of £1,000, Australians pay £244, incomparison with £381 by the English taxpayer, or two-thirds. An example of the severity of the Labour Government’s proposals in connexion with the higher grades of income, as compared with the United Kingdom and New Zealand, rates, is clearly shown in the table, where it will be seen that, in the lower grades, Australia receives considerably less, whilst, in the higher grades, it receives more than the comparable grades in the United Kingdom and New Zealand.

It is desirable to give consideration to the estimate of. the Treasury officials of the actual income in Australia for 1940-4.1 to which the proposed taxation measures will apply. The estimated distribution of individual incomes for 1940-41 includes incomes of males, juveniles and members of the forces, but excludes pensions. It is estimated that 2,709,000 persons in Australia, or 90 per cent, of the population, who receive incomes of £400 per annum or under received for the period under review £560,000,000, or 70 per cent, of the national income of £800,000,000. It is estimated that, the persons in receipt of £401 and under £1,000 per annum number 245,000. Their income is estimated at £145,000,000. The number of persons receiving incomes of £1,001 per annum and over is estimated at 46,000, and their estimated income is £95,000,000. Therefore, I say to my Labour friends that if the complete incomes of all of the people in receipt of over £1,000 a year were taken in taxes, the Government would not get sufficient money to balance the budget. The Government has taxed with the utmostseverity, up to 18s. in the £1, a small section of the people, and. has left untouched those in receipt of 70 per cent, of the national income. I suggest that the Government should have adopted the excellent features of the Fadden budget, which provided for the extraction on a sliding scale, from all sections of the community by way of post-war credits, of £25,000,000.

Senator Fraser:

– How much will persons on the higher incomes have left after they have paid the tax?

Senator McLEAY:

– I suggest, to the Minister that he should study the Melbourne Cup totalizator figures in order to got some idea on that point. The proposed collection in the nature of postwatered it was one of the best features of the Fadden budget, and before the present Government is much older it will be forced to realize that, fact. “Wages were never higher in Australia than they are to-day, and employment, figures were never more favorable. The wage-earners are enjoying better conditions now than they were before the war. I suggest that the proposal to extract, money by way of post-war credits would have been of great help to the budget and would have had a steadying influence on inflationary tendencies. Post-war credits would have been helpful to any government which had to face the grave problems that will confront Australia.

It is estimated by the Treasury that the payments this year by persons in receipt of £400 a year and under, whose total income is estimated at £560,000,000, will amount, to £3,750,000. Those receiving £401 per annum and under £1,000 per annum, whose income is estimated at £145,000,000, will contribute £9,500,000. Those receiving £1,001 per annum and under £1,500 per annum, whose income is estimated at £28,000,000, will contribute £4,750,000, whereas the small section receiving over £1,500 per annum, with an income of £67,000,000, will contribute no less than £25,750,000. Those figures relate to Commonwealth taxes alone. If we add the State taxes that will be imposed in those parts of Australia where the State taxes are highest, we see that great hardship will ‘ be inflicted on those persons.

I shall not go into details regarding the. excessive taxes to be imposed on- companies. During the course of this debate, honorable senators will have an opportunity to point out, the viciousness of the action of the present Government towards Australian companies. For some unknown reason, there appears to be a desire, because a few companies make large profits, to bring companies generally to a condition in which they will be unable to make progress and in which great, injustice will be done to many shareholders.

Senator Courtice:

– We have to win the war.

Senator McLEAY:

– Yes, but we should call upon all sections of the community to help in winning it. I am amazed at the unfair criticism directed against the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited, particularly in view of the good work that that company has done and is still doing for Australia. A prominent member of the present Government, who represents Queensland, suggested that that company should be taken over and controlled by the Labour Government. Any honorable senator from Queensland should bear in mind the hopeless mess which the Labour party in that State made of its attempts to run State cattle stations and meat and fish shops. I am pleased to know that up to date the Government has not gone any farther with the suggestion. I desire to correct the impres- sion in the minds of some Labour men that in companies like the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited a few persons own all of the shares. I remind honorable senators that there are 20,000 shareholders in the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited, and that the average holding of the10,850 shareholders in the Electrolytic Zinc Corporation Limited is under 246 shares. Out of 70,000 shareholders in the Australian trading banks, 52,000, or 74 per cent., own shares not exceeding £500 in value. [ assure my Labour friends that they are inflicting a great hardship on a number of shareholders who are possessed of very modest means. I am at a loss to understand the objection raised to companies in Australia. When the history of this war is written, one of the brightest pages in the story of Australia’s development will be that relating to the expansion of its secondary industries. They were a godsend to Australia when our primary industries were in difficulties because of loss of markets. Who are the people that control these companies? Ninety per cent, of them are men of initiative and enterprise who have risen from the ranks of the employees. This young country needs such men.

The excessive taxation of companies which the Government proposes will do a grave injustice to some sections of the community. The Government’s proposals are inequitable, when we compare the rates imposed on companies with the rates levied on other sections of the community, particularly as a number of small shareholders who look to dividends from companies as a means of livelihood will be affected.I shall not go into details, but I point out that the Federal tax on companies has been increased from 2s. to 3s. in the £1, that the State tax on companies in South Australia is 2s. in the £1 and varying amounts in the other States, and that undistributed profits are also raxed. Indeed, the tax that is paid is taxed again in the hands of the people who receive the dividends. If the Government will consider the cumulative effect of these several taxes it will find that they will inflict a serious hardship on numbers of small companies in Australia which find it essential to set aside a certain amount each year as reserves. In its desire to hit some of the big companies, the Government is doing a great injustice to a number of small companies and their shareholders. I shall deal later with the Government’s proposal in respect of the reduction from8 per cent, to 4 per cent, of the allowable profits made under the War-time Company Tax. A comparison of prices charged by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited for certain main products with the prices charged in the United Kingdom is interesting. The following table sets out the position : -

The budget contains a paragraph of five lines under the heading “Rural Reconstruction “.

The Government proposes to begin promptly inmaking effective its policy to give stability to our rural industries. The existing machinery for debt adjustmentand for the transfer of farmers from sub-marginal areas will be speeded up. Arrangements have been made to have these mutters examined at a meeting of Commonwealth and State Ministers early next month.

The Treasurer speaks of speeding up the machinery for debt adjustment and the transfer of farmers from sub-marginal areas, butI point out that those two matters are handled by the States, although the Commonwealth provides the funds. However, the budget papers do not show that any extra amount has been provided for these purposes.

Senator A J McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– It is merely padding.

Senator McLEAY:

– That is so, and poor and misleading padding at that. An examination of the budget will show increased land tax, sales tax and income tax, compared with the rates proposed by the Fadden Government. If we consider the cumulative effect of all of these taxes, as well as the inflationary tendency of the budget, we can come ito no other conelusion than that the proposals of the Government will inflict a further burden on those engaged in rural industries who have not the opportunity to pass on increased costs. Many primary producers who are normally engaged in the export trade are in a most serious financial position because of shipping difficulties. The wheat farmer, for instance, has not only to pay for storing his wheat which cannot be shipped,, but he has also to bear any losses which may be due to weevils. The primary producers of this country will find small comfort in those five lines in the budget.

It is interesting to note that the present Government has decided to reduce the expenditure contemplated by the Fadden Government in respect of only two items, namely, the Department of Information, and advertisements relating to the sale of surplus primary products. The Assistant Minister for Commerce (Senator Fraser) will not be able to speak in glowing terms of the Government’s- proposals when addressing the primary producers of Western Australia.

Senator Fraser:

– The proposals of the present Government are better than those of the previous Government.

Senator McLEAY:

– If the honorable senator himself and the primary producers of his State believe that that is so they are more foolish than I thought.

The present budget undoubtedly has an inflationary tendency. I do not desire, nor have I the time, to discuss that aspect of the budget now, but I remind the Senate of what has happened in the past. The gap between the expected revenue and the contemplated expenditure is £137,000,000. The Government has till the end of June next to bridge the gap. It may do so by borrowing from the people, by imposing heavier taxation on .them, or by embarking on a policy of bank credit. I was pleased to read what the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) had to say on the .subject of bank credit, but at the same time I felt somewhat sorry for the Government’s financial adviser., Senator Darcey.

Senator McBride:

– The Government has jettisoned him.

Senator MCLEAY:

– Australians war expenditure for 1940-41 was £170,000,000; the estimate for the present financial year is £221,000,000. If we are to do our utmost in this titanic struggle the Government will find a heavy financial task confronting it for the year 1942-43. The amount borrowed for all public purposes for 1940-41 was £86,000,000. This year, the amount required is estimated at £158,000,000, or £72,000,000 more than in the previous financial year. If the Government intends to rely on bank credit to bridge the gap, I foresee difficult days ahead.

Another difficulty that confronts the Government is in connexion with manpower. In this connexion I shall read from the budget speech under the heading “Financial Policy”-

Credit expansion, however, can be successfully used to finance employment of reserves of man-power to expand production of goods and materials. That is to say that any increase in the money volume must be balanced by corresponding increase in production. The extent to which increased production is possible will be determined by the amount of reserve man-power that is available. A thorough survey of that field is now in process. By organization and training many who are now classified as unemployable could he found useful employment said thus materially increase production and at the same time provide for themselves and their families.

Those members of the public who have read comments by various Ministers of the present Government will appreciate that the previous Government accomplished a .great deal in connexion with its munitions programme, its Empire Air Training Scheme, as well as its organization of the Navy and the Army, This, however, is no time to criticize our friends opposite for what they are doing to solve the man-power problem. Undoubtedly it is a difficult problem. The Treasurer says that the Government will make provision for an equitable distribution of nonessential goods, and that “.there must be a switch-over of a very large amount of production from civil needs to war’s demands “. The Government has been in office for five weeks, hut I ,see no evidence of that as yet I listened to the Prime Minister appeal for contributions to the war loan during the week that the Melbourne Cup was run. Honorable senators know that a huge sum of money passed through the totalizator in connexion with the Melbourne Cup and the racing carnival generally, and I suggest that if the Government desires to divert expenditure from non-essential needs to war needs it could not do better than follow the lead given by its predecessors, and establish a scheme of postwar credits. Having regard to our commitments and the possibilities in the future, I suggest that the Government should reconsider that matter.

All honorable senators are concerned with the difficulties that lie ahead. The Opposition is concerned and will be behind the Government in all matters directed towards an all-in war effort. After all, that is the only thing that really matters. As to other matters concerning which we may be forced to disagree with the Government, the Opposition will criticize the Government’s proposals where it thinks that criticism is justified in the interests of the people of Australia who have sent us here. I say, finally, that at the last general elections sixteen members now sitting in Opposition were elected by five States, not because of any airy promises that they made, but because they told the electors that their chief concern was the maximum war effort. Our leader said then that he would not make any promises, but that, if returned, his Government would do its best to win the war and to make the land we love a place fit to live in.

Senator McBRIDE:
South Australia

.- The budget of the present Government is a document which we might have expected from the gentlemen comprising the present Ministry. Honorable senators opposite have shown, over the whole period of the war, that they are entirely partisan. Although overtures were made to them on a number of occasions to join with us in conducting the affairs of this country in such a way as to enable us to put forward a maximum war effort, all our advances were determinedly and consistently refused. Consequently, having regard to the election policy speech delivered by the then Leader of the Opposition, we must have expected that the party which now occupies the treasury bench would bring down a budget similar to that which we are considering this afternoon. The first criticism I level at. the budget is that it does not begin to measure up to the problems of the war, and for that reason I believe it was deliberately designed to mislead the people of this country.

It is worth while to look back over the war period and to consider the varying attitude of our people towards the war. When Great Britain declared war against Germany, Australia immediately joined with the Mother Country in its declaration. I am satisfied that a. majority of the people of Australia were completely behind that action. They were willing and anxious to give of their best to bring the conflict to a satisfactory conclusion. The course of this war has been entirely different from that of the war of 1914-18, because, so far as Great Britain and the Empire were concerned, there was a lull of many months before actual hostilities commenced on a large scale. I know that it is extremely difficult for people living in this fair land, which has never had an armed conflict within its shores, to realize all the dreadful implications of war. Consequently, although the Government of the day appreciated the problems that confronted us, it was difficult to maintain an intensity of enthusiasm among the people as the stalemate on the western front continued. With the advance of the German hordes in the Low Countries and the overrunning of France, the position was revealed more clearly to our people, and again there was the urge to do their utmost on behalf of the war effort. Then, while the British forces were putting up a magnificent resistance to German aggression, and the authorities in the Mother Country were feverishly preparing to resist an invasion, the dangers that confronted us were made much more apparent. When the danger of invasion of the Mother Country appeared to have passed, there was another lull in the affairs of the war. Later, we had the magnificent victory in Libya, followed only too soon by the tragic defeats in Greece and Crete, which again stirred our people to a realization of the menace that confronted them.

Later still, with the invasion of Russia by Germany, the nations of the world were thrilled by the great resistance put up by our ally against the advance of the German hordes. With the passing of time, however, a feeling is again growing up in this country that somebody else will win the war for us. I am comforted by the fact that a very large number of people in Australia really appreciate the position, and are actually giving of their best to further the success of our arms. I had the privilege and honour of being ministerial head of the Department of Munitions for a short period and I have had an opportunity to learn something of the work of the thousands of men and women in that department. They are doing a magnificent job. The war is very close to them; they know what it means, and they are doing their best to turn out an increasing volume of the munitions of war and equipment that are so badly needed by our forces. On the other hand, we cannot disguise the fact that very many people in this country seem to be still unaware of the serious position in which we find ourselves to-day. The comment made recently by the General Officer Commanding the Australian Imperial Forces in the Middle East, General Sir Thomas Blarney, that some people in Australia seem to be living in a carnival atmosphere, is only too true. If we need support for that statement we have only to consider what is happening in almost every part of Australia to-day. On every hand we sec an enormous wastage of time, money and energy on sport. Whilst sport is admirable in times of peace - indeed, it is due very largely to the love of our people for sport that our national characteristics have been developed - in time of war undue regard for sport is completely out of place. It is well that our people should realize that, whilst other nations are prepared to help us in this war - I have already mentioned that Russia is giving of its best to the cause ; the United States of America is also helping us to an increasing degree as the weeks go by - the cold fact is that no other nation will pull the chestnuts out of the fire for Australia and the Empire. It is our duty to-day to do our best; not only a conditional best, not only a best which connotes the maintenance of the high standards that have prevailed in Australia for many years, and to which unfortunately the members of the present Government and their supporters have given lip service but also willingness to equal what is being done by the Mother Country. Before we can approach the effort being made by Great Britain, we shall have to go without many of the things that we now enjoy. It is in this respect that I say that this budget has a misleading or doping effect on the people of Australia. It suggests to them that, whilst a small section of the community will be asked to make sacrifices, the majority of the people will not be any worse off than they are to-day. In offering this criticism of the budget, I have no desire to be unfair. I realize that the Prime Minister, speaking in the House of Representatives, has threatened that although the Government is imposing heavy sacrifices on certain sections of the community, other sections may be called to bear more of the burden. The whole point of that, however, is that whereas the budget and its implications have been made known to the people of Australia, the Prime Minister’s statement, to which I have referred, is probably unknown to most of them. It seems to me that the Government has viciously attacked a small section of the people, the voting strength of which is not great, and which the Government considers it to be impossible to win away from its present political affiliations.

Senator Courtice:

– That is not a fair argument.

Senator McBRIDE:

– I submit that it is fair criticism. I point out to the Government that the burdens cannot be borne, willy nilly, by any one section of the people of Australia, and that before this war is over, we shall all be bearing burdens and making sacrifices which at present are unknown in this country. On the question of war finance and the savage imposition of taxes on higher incomes, it is perhaps worth reading the following extract from an article written by ProfessorIles on the subject: -

It must be remembered that in Australia there are few very large incomes, and that the small and medium incomes greatly predominate. Although it would be impossible for the rich to “ pay for the war “ in the sense of bearing the whole burden of economizing in consumption which it involves, there is an illusory sense in which the rich could be made to do all the actual paying.

Apparently, that is what the present

Government is now doing.

Debate interrupted.

page 241

DISTINGUISHED VISITOR

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Brown). - I desire to inform the Senate that Mr. Leslie Blackwell, K.C, M.C., a member of the Parliament of the Union of South Africa, is within the precincts of the Senate. With the concurrence of honorable senators I shall invite him to take a seat on the floor of the Senate beside the President’s chair.

Honorable Senators. - Hear, hear!

Mr. Blackwell thereupon entered the chamber and was seated accordingly.

page 241

ESTIMATES AND BUDGET PAPERS 1941-42 (REVISED)

Debate resumed.

Senator McBRIDE:

– ProfessorIles continued -

For it would be possible (if it were not for the effects on production) to finance the war in such a way that the poor would not be called upon to contribute, directly to the Government, anything at all in the form of taxes or loans - as they need not if resort were had on a large scale to bank credit. This would mean that the poor could escape making payments in money to the Government. But it would not mean that they could escape the burden. Indeed, they would bear a larger part of the burden under this method of finance than they would bear under the method of direct taxation. Inflationhas the effect of skimming off part of the real incomes of wage and salary earners and of handing it over to the rich (the profit earners) so that they would in effect have the wherewithal to pay additional sums to the Government in taxation and voluntary loans. It is thus a simple matter to ensure that the rich shall have the means to “ pay for the war “, by impoverishing the poor in order that they may. In advocating finance by bank credit, the Labour party would be well advised to take heed of this distinction between paying the money and bearing the burden, and in doing so to remember that inflation is incredibly efficient in producing inequality.

The Government’s effort is doomed to failure. Indeed, it will very seriously retard our war effort in many ways. The people as a whole are quite prepared to bear their fair share of the burden of the war. The rate of tax which the Government proposes to impose on higher incomes would bring forth no objection from me at all if increased taxes were to be spread equitably over all sections of income earners. However, the Government in its taxation proposals, as my leader has already said and demonstrated with figures, is completely out of step with the governments of other countries within the Empire. He mentioned New Zealand, which has had a Labour Government since the outbreak of war. At the beginning of last year I had the pleasure of meeting most of the members of that Government. It has no illusion as to the spreading of the burden over all sections of its people. Indeed, it has shown in no uncertain manner that it believes that the people of New Zealand, as I believe of the people of Australia, are prepared to do their utmost in the prosecution of the war. It has imposed a special war tax on all sections of its people, and I give credit to it for the general war effort it is making. It must be evident to this Government that its proposed taxes on higher incomes will simply dry up the source from which it must hope to draw further taxes in the future. We must realize that no one section of the community has a monopoly of patriotism. We cannot expect those on the higher levels of income to have more patriotism than those on the lower levels. The proposed intensive scale of taxation on the higher incomes will eliminate a very large number of those incomes from the field of taxation altogether, and, consequently, they will not be available in the futureto be taxed by this or any other Government. One of the most serious effects which the Government’s proposed taxes will have on these people is that it will make them feel that an injustice has been done to them..

Senator Arthur:

– Will they go on the dole?

Senator McBRIDE:

– I might have expected that interjection from the honorable senator. On many occasions in this chamber honorable senators opposite, particularly the Leader of the Senate (Senator Collings), have uttered the canard that it is not the amount of tax that matters, but the amount that is left to the taxpayer after he has paid tax. That is a deliberate half-truth, because the amount that is left to the taxpayer after he has paid tax must be related to the individual taxpayer’s commitments. It is simply fatuous to suggest that a man who is accustomed to an income of, say, £5,000 a year, to take a figure at random, has not to meet commitments far in excess of those which, say, a man who normally earns £1,000 a year has to meet.

I shall now comment briefly upon the effect of the Government’s company taxation proposals. We have heard ad nauseam from honorable senators opposite criticism of the big companies, the so-called greedy profit-makers, the great monopolies of this country. Most honorable senators opposite know the position of those companies just as well as I do. Their statements on this point are deliberately designed to mislead certain people. They know perfectly well that the bigcompanies have enabled us to achieve our present scale of production of munitions and equipment.

– The Government is more likely to fall. It is advisable that the people should know just what the position was when this Government took over the treasury bench. The Menzies Government conducted the affairs of Australia during two years of war, and in all that period, according to the latest figures available, the average increase of prices has been under 10 per cent. I mention that because it is one of the very important factors upon which the Government will be judged. It is fatuous for the Government to talk of an all-in war effort if, at the same time, it encourages rising costs and prices. Consequently, I say deliberately that this is the main factor on which the Government will be judged, and on which the success of its war effort will depend. It is hopeless to endeavour to engage in a maximum war effort if there is to be a rising pile of costs, wages and prices. The omens for the future are already not good. If reports which have appeared in the newspapers he correct - I agree that newspaper reports are not always accurate - adverse effects will soon be felt. By various -means the previous Government held costs and prices down in a way which has not been excelled in any other country engaged in this war. They have been controlled not by flatly tightening down on prices and wages, as is done in Nazi Germany, but by endeavouring first of all to control prices on a reasonable basis. Incidentally I pay a tribute to the Prices Commissioner for his valuable work, which I consider has been exceptionally successful. Secondly, prices and costs have been kept at reasonable levels by allowing arbitration machinery to decide industrial matters. It is reported - I speak only from knowledge gained through that report - that that system has been departed from already. We have been told that, the Government has agreed to a mutual arrangement between certain workers and employers on the question of wages, without regard for the effect that such an arrangement might have upon other classes of workers, and indeed upon the entire arbitration system. I refer to the reported agreement between the brick, tile and pottery interests and their employees. If this be the system under which this Government proposes to settle industrial disputes, costs will rapidly increase. Not only will there be a rise in costs, but also the effect will filter right through the whole structure of our war effort, and its cost will increase materially. The result will be the same as the effect of inflation” in any other country, namely, that the conditions of those people whom such action is designed to assist will become worse.

I have no objection to increasing the rates of pensions, but I believe that the real rate of pension is its purchasing power. I recall that a previous labour Prime Minister who had avowed that he would not reduce pensions, eventually was forced to admit that it was better to reduce pensions and maintain their purchasing power than to retain the then existing rates. I draw the Government’s attention to the fact that, if it travels down the easy way, not only the pensioners, but the workers generally, will be worse off than they have been, and the hardship will be felt particularly by those sections of the community whose support this Government has made violent efforts to obtain. I refer to those persons in receipt of fixed salaries. It is assumed that, owing to cost of living adjustments, persons employed under awards of the Arbitration Court can withstand the effects of inflation. Certainly they can in the early stages, but the large section with fixed incomes has not the advantage of automatic salary adjustments to compensate for increases of the cost of living, and it will suffer first from the results which I fear from the present budget.

Senator SPICER:
Victoria

.- I am conscious of the extraordinarily difficult task which was presented to the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) and to the previous Treasurer (Mr. Fadden) in preparing the budget proposals for this year. The task of the present Treasurer was rendered lighter than it might otherwise

Iia ve been by reason of the fact that the financial affairs of this country during the first two years of the war were conducted with great skill. That enabled us to put forward a tremendous war effort and preserve on a perfectly sound foundation the whole financial structure of this country. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Menzies Government for its financial policy during those two years. It has to its credit an achievement that is little short of remarkable.

Senator Cameron:

– It increased interest charges.

Senator SPICER:

– It is time the honorable senator became a little less irresponsible, since he is now ‘a Minister. The truth is that, despite the large sum that is required for war purposes, interest rates have fallen since the war.

Senator Cameron:

– But capital charges have increased.

Senator SPICER:

– The fact that interest rates have fallen is due in no small measure to the wise policy adopted by the Menzies Government. I add the fact referred to by Senator McBride that, since the outbreak of war, commodity prices in this country have risen by only 10 per cent. That is another remarkable achievement. When Senator McBride was speaking, the Minister for Aircraft Production (Senator Cameron) indulged in another of those irresponsible statements to which we became accustomed when he sat on the opposition side of the chamber, but which come ill from a Minister of the Crown. He interjected “ Why should prices rise at all ? “ Prices have risen because costs have risen, and it is impossible to keep down the price of any commodity if the price of producing it is increasing. One of the big factors in the increasing costs that have led to increased prices is increased wages. Members of the Joint Committee on Profits have been giving attention to this matter, and have had perfectly clear proof before it that prices in

Senator SPICER:

– The Treasurer went on to say that the issue of bank credit could not solve that problem. That is the situation as I see it. Unless we get a transfer of income from the community to the Government in order to finance waT production there will be a considerable increase of the prices of commodities.

Senator Cameron:

– What about putting non-essential industries into full production ?

Senator SPICER:

– When there is a decreasing supply of goods and an increasing supply of money, prices of commodities will be the means by which that diversion from civil production to war purposes will ,be reflected in the community. It is because I believe that an increase of the price of commodities which are -available to the civilian population is the most unfair, as well as the most unscientific, method of financing the war effort, that I am opposed to this method of finance.

– The heavier these burdens on companies become the more directly they affect the shareholders.

– The Government proposes to tax the earnings of companies in excess of 4 per cent. I suggest that that is a very low percentage of profit at which to commence to impose such a tax. The Government’s proposal takes no account whatever of the varying risks associated with certain enterprises, and it accepts as a basis for the imposition of a special profits tax a rate of profit which is not very much higher than is at present obtained on gilt-edged securities. Again, the Government imposes this tax without regard to the ability of the companies to pay it. It does not, and will not, pay sufficient regard to the fact that one company may be carrying on an undertaking which involves considerable risks, and therefore should properly earn a higher rate of profit, whilst another may be engaged in an enterprise in which there is little risk. I suggest that that is further evidence of the failure of this Government to adhere to the perfectly sound principle that should guide us in our taxation proposals, namely, ability to pay.

– The Treasurer said that it was done in order to reduce consumption. In his budget speech he said -

So far as taxation goes, as a means of reducing consumption, I think that for middle and lower incomes it is better to get the reduction by means of taxes on goods and services not really essential, which can be forgone without injury to health or efficiency.

In perfectly plain language that means that these taxes are being imposed on commodities for the purpose of reducing consumption, and that involves that the Treasurer anticipated that the tax would be collected by the retailer from the consumer in the form of increased prices.

I believe that all honorable senators are concerned at this time, as I am concerned, with the war situationWe all recognize that if the need arises all sections’ of this community should make their contribution to the war effort. We cannot carry on the war on the scale on which it is being carried on at present without imposing tremendous real sacrifices upon every member of the community. It would be a good thing psychologically for this country if the Government were brave enough to indicate that fact in its financial measures, and drive straight home to every member of the community that all of us must bear our burden, that those burdens must be borne now while the war is on, and that they are the necessary insurance premiums which we must pay if we are to retain our liberties as a democratic community.

Senator DARCEY:
Tasmania

– The Leader of the Opposition (Senator McLeay) erroneously spoke of me as the financial adviser to the Government. I assure him that Professor Copland is still the financial adviser to the Government, and that he will find that that gentleman’s orthodoxy will be extended almost to any degree in order to retain his position. I shall not be the least surprised if he is prepared to accept any revolutionary monetary change in order to keep his job. The Leader of the Opposition quoted certain figures in order to show that the banks earn very little profit. The Bank of Australasia was founded in 1832 with an original capital of £200,000. In 1936, its capital was £4,500,000 and its disclosed reserves amounted to £4,750,000, whilst its reserved profits used in the business of the bank totalled £3,301,317. When we speak of company profits, and particularly the profits of a banking company, we should not overlook the degree of watering of stock that is done by these companies. The Bank of Australasia is an English company and most of its profits go to England. The value of the bank’s properties is at present shown at only £200,000; but during the nineteen years preceding 1936, £2,648,496 was written off the bank’s properties. Those properties are invariably situated in the centre of cities, and their value is constantly rising. The fact that in a period of nineteen years this bank has written off an amount of £2,648,496 in respect of depreciation of its premises, that is, off its profits, reveals just one way in which these companies hide their real profit.

I have repeatedly told honorable senators that it is impossible from a bank’s balance-sheet to find out actually what profit it really makes. From 1900 to 1932, the net profits of the banks in Australia amounted to £122,351,428. The original capital of the Bank of Australasia was £200,000, and in 53 years, it has paid £6,000,000 in dividends. These are official figures which I have taken from the Year-Book. The Union Bank, which commenced with a capital of £140,000, has paid £8,000,000 in dividends. Consequently, bank profits are much greater than some people imagine. During the last war the banks paid up to 15 per cent, in dividends. The banks make a habit of publishing their smaller profits, but they never disclose their bigger profits. I happen to be a member of the Economic Society of England. Even at present, the banks in England are paying from 14 per cent, to 16 per cent, and the chairman of directors of one bank in presenting the balancesheet, told the shareholders the bank was paying a dividend of 14 per cent, because of the fact that they were lending hundreds of millions of pounds to the Government.

Senator McBride:

– Tell us what the Australian banks are making.

Senator DARCEY:

– I have just given the figures of the Bank of Australasia.

Senator McBride:

– That bank has never made 16 per cent, profit in its history.

Senator DARCEY:

– It has paid up to 15 per cent ; and that does not in any way disclose its real profit. So long as the banks place hundreds of thousands of pounds to secret reserves, it will be impossible to say how much they really make. I venture to say that honorable senators will find that the inquiry by the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) backed up by the AuditorGeneral into the profits of Australian banks will provide a big surprise.

– In view of the financial mess left to us by the preceding Government, we have done the best we could in the short time at our disposal. But I promise honorable senators opposite that some of the financial ideas which I put before this chamber in the past will be embodied in the supplementary budget.

The general belief is that there are three reasons, and only three reasons, why taxation is necessary. The first is that the money that the public possesses is the only source of money available to the Government to pay for the war or social services. That is a fallacy. We have not taxed the people sufficiently in order to be able to raise the money we require without using credits. The second reason is that the only way to switch the employment of labour and raw material from civil production to production for war purposes is to deprive the public of part of their incomes, so that that part of their incomes is spent by the Government. That is another fallacy. The third of these reasons is that if the public has more money to spend than there are consumers’ goods to buy, inflation must ensue. I shall show that those conclusions are false; yet they were embodied in the financial policy of the Fadden Government. That they are false is proved by the fact that we have been using credit ever since the war started. I shall ask very shortly how much it cost the previous Government to tell the people that if they did not buy war bonds, the war output would be diminished. That is another fallacy. If we had an extra £1,000,000,000 in Australia at this moment it would not give us one extra tank or one extra aeroplane. That should be obvious to honorable senators. One reason why the three grounds which I have mentioned above for the belief that taxation is necessary are ill-founded is stated by the British banking journal, 77ie Banker -

It is not in the least true that the production of arms could not take place, only on a smaller scale, if the public were not providing the money in the form of gifts or loans. If the money were not forthcoming in one of these ways, it would have to be created. And this the State as the monetary authority can do perfectly well at negligible cost and practically without limit.

In England, £600,000,000,000 worth of credit was created during the last war. I hope that we shall not follow a similar procedure. The Commonwealth Bank can lend interestfree money to the Government. Shortly after I was elected to the Senate, I asked whether it was the intention of the then Government to discuss the findings of the Royal Commission on Monetary and Banking Systems before the ensuing Christmas vacation, and the reply I received was “ Yes “. That was nearly four years ago, yet that subject has never been debated. If it had been discussed, the then Government’s financial policy would have been revealed as being in direct opposition to the findings of the royal commission which it appointed. That is the reason why preceding governments failed to provide honorable senators with an opportunity to discuss that matter. Although Mr. Fadden spoke for an hour when introducing his budget, he mentioned the Commonwealth Bank only once. Just before he concluded his speech he said that there was an honorable understanding with the bankers that there should, be no great increase of profits. Mr. Fadden also said that he intended to give effect to one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Monetary and Banking Systems, namely that the private banks should deposit some of their surplus reserves with the Commonwealth Bank, to protect their depositors. It has been stated that the essence of bank credit is faith on the part of the depositors that their money is safe in the bank, and faith on the part of the hankers that at the stipulated time, borrowers will return the money which has been loaned to them. That is a fallacy. The essence of bank credit is security. Money cannot be borrowed on faith. If I went to a bank to obtain money and said that I hoped that the banker would have sufficient faith in me, he would say that business could not be done on those terms. In fact I was once told that, when I went to a bank to borrow money and the banker asked me what security I had in the form of bricks and mortar. I got the money on that occasion, but it was not because the banker had faith in me; it was because I had the necessary security. Mr. Nash, the New Zealand Minister for Finance, was here recently and stress has been laid upon what has been done in New Zealand. The fact is that the New Zealand Government bought the bank established by Sir Otto Niemeyer. After the last war the Bank of England sent emissaries, of whom Sir Otto Niemeyer was one, all over the British Empire to set up new banks, ostensibly to help the financial systems of the various countries in which the new banks were to be established. Sir Otto Niemeyer came to Australia but he found he could not establish a bank here because we already had a people’s bank - the Commonwealth Bank. The Commonwealth Bank has been referred to as a central bank, but actually it is nothing of the kind. The term “central bank” is misapplied to the Commonwealth Bank. A central bank is the principal bank of a private banking system, and the Commonwealth Bank is the very antithesis of that, notwithstanding the mutilation which it suffered at the hands of the Bruce-Page Government in 1924. When Mr. Bruce, on the occasion of his last visit to this country, was sent around Australia to tell us what had happened after the Munich pact, he told us about the probable enemies of the Empire. I listened to that gentleman in Sydney, but I did not say anything to him on that occasion because he said that lie intended to visit Tasmania. He did visit Tasmania and once again he told us about the enemies of the Empire. I said, “ What about the enemies within our gates?” He asked me what I meant by that, and I said, “I mean what I 3ay; what about the action of the Bruce-Page Government in altering the constitution of the Commonwealth Bank in favour of the private banks? In my opinion, that was an .act of treachery to the people of Australia “. Mr. Bruce flushed ; he did not like it; but it was quite true. He was one of the enemies within our gates. We had another enemy, Mr. Casey, who introduced an amending Commonwealth Bank bill before the outbreak of this war. The ob ject was to amend the Commonwealth Bank Act in various ways, and to establish a mortgage bank. It was proposed to establish a mortgage bank by selling inscribed stock and debentures to provide the necessary capital. At that time the Commonwealth Bank had £19,000,000 worth of assets, and its deposits totalled £1S4,000,000. The trick was this: The only people who could buy inscribed stock at that time were the trading banks-, so that, in effect, the new mortgage bank would have been under the control of the private banks. There is also another unpleasant point: Under company law, debenture holders can take over an organization if they are not satisfied with the manner in which its affairs are being conducted. Therefore, the private banks could have taken over the new mortgage bank. Fortunately there was so much opposition to the proposed legislation that the matter was dropped. That is a good example of fifth column work in this country. The aim was to rob the people of the Commonwealth Bank, which is the main asset that Australia possesses to-day. It has been said that the Scullin Government was the first administration to reduce invalid and old-age pensions. That action was forced upon the Scullin Government because of the state of this country’s finances after they had been in the hands of the Bruce-Page Government for ten years. When Mr. Scullin returned from Great Britain he found an empty treasury, an adverse trade balance of £30,000,000, and the London loan market closed to Australia simply because a Labour government was in office. Mr. Scullin had to look around for some new means of raising revenue because, under the present financial system, the only way any government can carry on is by continually borrowing money. The only source of money was the private banks, and as that source had been closed the Government could not carry on. That is why I want to see a change. Use should be made of the great Commonwealth Bank, which has the assets of Australia behind it. The private banks created the last depression deliberately; they can create depressions whenever they desire. A depression can be started only by calling up of overdrafts, and withholding further credit. Under the present system, the private banks have the power to do these things at any time. However, they will not have it after January next. In fact, they may not have it now. I am not quite familiar with the arrangements reached between the Government and the private banks a few days ago in Canberra, but it is said that the private banks have agreed to the new proposals.

Senator Large:

– Under duress, of course.

Senator DARCEY:

– Yes. We have been told that the cost of living in this country has not increased to any great degree. The sales tax was introduced by the Scullin Government to meet the extraordinary position caused by the extravagance of the Bruce-Page Govern ment. When it was introduced, it was only 2½ per cent., and it yielded a little more than £3,000,000 per annum. Under the Menzies and Fadden Governments, the sales tax was 15 per cent, and its contribution to the national revenue was £12,000,000 per annum. Now the sales tax on certain items is to be increased to 20 per cent. That affects everybody; very few items are exempt, and therefore the cost of living must increase. The sales tax is invariably passed on. Therefore it is no use saying that the people are not suffering from additional taxation impositions under war conditions. The Prices Commissioner, Professor Copland, has said that prices have risen by only 10 per cent., but I would point out that he deals only with certain commodities. A few months ago Professor Copland came to Hobart and addressed the Chamber of Commerce, of which I am a member, on the subject of price fixation. He spoke for well over an hour, and when he was about to conclude I said to him, “ There is one commodity which the Prices Commissioner has not dealt with, and that is what is known as bank credit. It is created on the premises, the raw materials being pens, ink and paper. It is indispensible in modern business, yet the banks are permitted to make a profit of more than 100 per cent, on it.” I realized that, as an economist, Professor Copland knew perfectly well that all costs go into prices and have to be recovered from prices. I have never seen a man so confused. I do not think he heard the case put in that way. Hesaid, “ I think, senator, you will find that we shall obtain the money at a much lower rate of interest than you anticipate “. That had nothing to do with my question, but the chairman closed the meeting.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 8 p.m.

Senator DARCEY:

– Figures have been quoted by every speaker on the Opposition side, and I also intend to present some figures in refutation of the suggestion by Senator Spicer that the cost of living has increased by only 10 per cent, since the outbreak of war. Indirect taxation is responsible for a far greater increase than that. Figures issued by the Commonwealth Statistician show that in

June, 1914, taxes in Australia amounted to £23,161,000, whilst in 1940, the total amount had increased to £144,397,000. All taxation increases the cost of living and lowers the standard of living. New Zealand has been referred to as a country which we should emulate, but there the average family pays £128 per annum in taxes or 41 per cent, of its total income. The result is that a workman in that dominion has to work for five months of the year merely to earn the money with which to pay his taxes. New Zealand has sold out to the private banks and is utilizing national credit to no greater degree than is Australia. That is why taxes are so heavy in that dominion. Taxes in New Zealand have increased from £5,000,000 in 1914 to £42,000,000 in 1941, an increase of 800 per cent. Indirect taxation acts like an anaesthetic for by that means taxes are taken from a man’s wages without his being conscious of the fact.

Interest bills absorb nearly the whole of the revenues of various ventures. The Sydney Water and Sewerage Board had an income in 1937 of £3,086,763, but interest and exchange costs amounted to £1,679,469. Whilst the various railway systems of Australia earned in fares and freights last year £12,500,000, their interest bills totalled £11,459,000. Is it surprising, therefore, that railway fares and freights are high? When the Commonwealth was established, six States federated. There are now seven States and the seventh is the State of poverty. That fact is borne out by the size df the national debt. I remarked earlier in my speech that the war could be financed without further taxes if full use were made of the national credit. I have cited many authorities in the past in order to show that the banks do not lend money. The greatest authorities point out that the banks are institutions for the creation of credit. The total sum held by the nine associated banks in Australia prior to the war was £14,000,000 worth of notes. The silver and copper eoin which they held was the total amount of their legal tender. The rest of the note issue was in the hands of the public for carrying on the retail business of the nation. In the first year of the war the associated banks bought war bonds and treasury-bills to the value of £67,000,000. Many financial reformers say that the powers of the banks to create credit are unlimited, but no such statement has ever been made by anybody having a right to pose as a reliable authority on monetary reform. The banks certainly do create credit. I have shown that in the first year of the war, when they had only £14,000,000 between them, they bought £67,000,000 worth of securities. How do we get into debt to the amount of hundreds of millions of pounds? There was no more currency in circulation in Australia at the end of the last war in 1918 than there was when the war started. The assertion by honorable senators opposite that we cannot carry on the present war unless the people continue to buy war bonds and war savings certificates is utterly untrue.

Senator Allan MacDonald:

– The present Prime Minister has said that.

Senator DARCEY:

– I have not heard of it. The parties now in Opposition left the country in such a mess that the Labour party had to do something to fill the breach.

Senator Spicer:

– What does the present Government propose to fill it with ?

Senator DARCEY:

– It would be useless for me to reply to that interjection, because the honorable senator stated this afternoon that it was impossible to fill the breach. One of the greatest writers on world affairs, Mr. J. B. Priestly, stated -

There is only one sphere of action in the more civilized countries to-day in which men find it necessary, when describing the ordinary operations there, to use metaphors and similes drawn from medieval brigandage, and that is the world of high finance.

Thus I cannot help feeling, in roy innocence, that there must be something strangely anachronistic, crude, violent, barbaric, about that world; and that it is therefore time it was brought into the twentieth century, cleaned up and civilized.

Senator Spicer said that the bank interest rate had fallen. If the banks lent £100,000,000 last year at 5 per cent, interest and could create £200,000,000 this year, they could now afford to lend money at 2£ per cent., because it would cost them no more to create £200,000,000 than £100,000,000. The fact that money is created by the banks is beyond dispute. Mr. Priestly further said -

A corporation is only a pipe-line arrangement for bringing together capital goods and labour; and since present taxes exceed profits, taxes are levied on goods and wages. Taxes crush the buying power of wages. In nearly every purchase you pay -

A corporate income tax.

An excess profits tax.

A capital stock tax.

A petrol tax.

A manufacturers’ excise tax.

A personal income tax.

A commodity licence tax.

An occupational licence tax.

An electricity tax.

A communications tax; and

An insurance tax.

All excessive taxation is due entirely to the payment of interest. We should get down to the real cause of our financial trouble, which I have always claimed is the unscrupulous use of money power. The destiny of the people is in the hands of their governments. If we cannot place the blame for the present world conditions upon the various governments throughout the world, who can be held responsible for them? Incompetent and corrupt governments have brought the world to the state in which we find it to-day, and Australia must accept its share of the blame for those conditions.

Senator Cameron:

– The previous Government.

Senator DARCEY:

– Blame is attachable to all governments. I maintain that Australia has never had a government worthy of its heritage.

Senator Aylett:

– Until now.

Senator DARCEY:

– The present Government has not yet had an opportunity to prove itself, but I believe that it will prove worthy of Australia. Abraham Lincoln once said -

The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government; but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity.

Taxation is the cause of all the poverty and trouble in the world to-day. In 19.14 Australia’s national debt was £4 19s. 6d. per capita, and to-day it is £25. That means that the sum paid in interest has increased by 600 per cent. The sooner the Opposition realizes that we cannot continue in this way, the better. I am accused of quibbling, but I have stated facts which have been supplied by the Commonwealth Statistician.

I will not have my honesty questioned. A man who quibbles is not honest; and I claim to be an honest man.

The PRESIDENT:

– Order ! I ask the honorable senator to address the Chair and not to indulge in conversation across the chamber.

Senator DARCEY:

– I bow to your ruling, Mr. President, and shall be glad to follow your advice. I shall tell the Senate again how the banks create money. The Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th edition, contains the following under the heading “ Banking and Credit “ : -

Banks create credit. It is a mistake to suppose that bank credit is created to any important extent by the payment of money into the banks. A loan made by a bank is a clear addition to the amount of money in the community.

I direct attention also to the following statement by H. D. McLeod in his textbook The Theory and Practice of Banking : -

The essential and distinctive feature of a bank and a banker is to create and issue credit payable on demand, and this credit is intended to be put into circulation and serve all the purposes ofmoney.

The amounts which the banks lend to governments are created out of nothing, yet the taxpayers have to pay interest on the amounts so advanced. The governments will never pay the money back. Indeed, the banks do not want the money to be paid back, even if it were physically possible to do so. So long as thisbank racket continues, taxes will increase until eventually financial ruin will face Australia. In a book containing 1,400 pages there is set out in Latin, Italian, French and English what could have been stated more effectively in fourteen pages, because all that it explains is the banking system, and that should not take much explaining. McLeod, in his Elements of Banking, has also written -

When it is said that a great London Joint Stock Bank has perhaps £25,000,000 of deposits, it is almost universally believed that it has £25,000,000 of actual money to “ lend out “, as it is erroneously called . . . It is a complete and entire delusion. These “ deposits “ are not deposits in cash at all . . . They are nothing but an enormous superstructure of credit.

Mr. R. G. Hawtrey, Assistant UnderTreasurer to the British Treasury, in his

Trade Depression and the Way Out, said -

When a bank lends it creates money out of nothing.

After an exhaustive inquiry, the Royal Commission on Banking and Monetary Systems appointed by a previous Commonwealth government reported in paragraph 504 -

The Commonwealth Bank . . . can make money available to governments and to others free of any charge.

The following extract is from a publication by Mr. J. M. Keynes: -

There can be no doubt that all deposits are created by the banks.

That is interesting in view of the fact that he has advocated a system by which the people should be taxed on an income of only £2 a week. Instead of doing that, it would be better to create credit so that a person with an income of £100 a year could be left free from the necessity to pay taxes. In his book Post-war Bankingthe Eight Honorable E. McKenna, chairman of the Midland Bank, wrote -

The amount of money in existence varies only with the action of the banks in increasing nr diminishing deposits. We know how this is effected. Every bank loan and every bank purchase of securities creates a deposit, and every payment of a hank loan destroys a deposit. f also place before the .Senate the following extract from the writing by Professor Soddy, the eminent physicist of Oxford University: - fa it possible in these days of disbelief in physical miracles really to caricature institutions which pretend to lend money, and do not lond it, but create it? And when it is repaid them, de-create it? And who have achieved the physically impossible miracle thereby, not only of getting something for nothing, but also of getting perennial interest from it?

Mr. Hartley “Withers, in his publication International Finance, stated -

A credit in the Bank of England’s books is regarded by the financial community as “ cash “, and this pleasant fiction has given the bank the power of creating cash by a stroke nf the pen and to any extent that it pleases, subject only to its own view as to what is [u ndent and sound business.

In July, 193S, Branch Banking, an English hankers’ journal, stated -

There is no more unprofitable subject under the sun than to argue any hanking or credit points, since there arc enough substantial n notations in existence to prove to the initiated that banks do create credit without restraint.

– I am not speaking in a personal sense, but entirely in a political sense. I know of no more suitable phrase in which to express my opinion of the budget, but out of respect to the wishes of honorable senators opposite, I withdraw the words. The budget will not provide the necessary finance that the Government requires, if it intends to carry out the programme undertaken by it, assuming that the appeal being made by the Prime Minister for the diversion of expenditure on nonessential goods to war expenditure is heeded.

Senator Allan MacDonald:

– The Prime Minister did not say what nonessentials are.

Senator FOLL:

Senator Cameron:

– Let us start with the conscription of capital.

Senator FOLL:

– When we have done what I have advocated we may be able to say that we have indeed put forward a whole-hearted war effort.

Senator Darcey said that he feared that his many dissertations on the subject of finance had failed to impress honorable senators now sitting hi opposition, but a. study of the budget reveals that he has also failed to impress members of his own party. When I contemplated, the reading of the Treasurer’s budget speech, I had in mind Senator Darcey’s repeated statement that, under a Labour Government, orthodox methods of finance would be set aside. I remembered, too, that on many occasions Senator Brown had indulged in flights of oratory in which he advocated the introduction of a new financial system. He, too, said that under a Labour Government, the existing financial system would be changed. Nevertheless, the first budget introduced by a Labour Government was largely along orthodox lines. Obviously, members of the Cabinet, When placed in a position of responsibility, saw things differently from the way that they saw them when sitting in opposition. Unfortunately, the proposals of the Fadden budget were not, carried into effect, particularly those which required every person in the community to accept his share of the financial responsibility for the prosecution of the war.

The Government makes a great feature of the fact that it expects to effect a considerable saving compared with the Fadden Government’s proposals. It claims to have found a way by which it will be possible to 3ave £80,000 in connexion with the Department of Information. That is the only economy it can make in a £325.000,000 budget.’ I am interested to know in what direction the saving will be effected, and accordingly, T have placed a number of questions on the notice-paper. Having spent seven or eight months in control of the Department of Information, I do not know of any way in which that department can still give the same service to the country and yet enable a saving of £80,000 to be made. I am aware that the Department of Information has been one of the most abused of departments; it has been the “ Aunt Sally “ of persons both inside and outside Parliament. I say, however, that it contains many men who have done an extraordinarily good job, Many who criticize the department do not realize how much work it does foi other departments. The present Minister for Information (,Senator Ashley) will find, as I did, that if there is a “sticky” job to be done, the Department of Information will be asked to do it. I shall be glad to know whether the estimated saving of £80,000 will be made by a reduction of the estimates of the department itself, or whether that amount represents the saving that will be made in respect of work done for other departments. The Department of Information has done a tremendous volume of work for the service departments, such as all recruiting propaganda,, war loan publicity, commercial advertising, and so on.

Senator Ashley:

– The Commerce Department paid for its advertising.

Senator FOLL:

– I wish to know whether the contemplated saving of £80,000 will be a direct saving in the Department of Information. I wish to know also what services will be affected. I have noticed that the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) has suggested that the Department of Information should be abolished. I admit frankly that the department could be abolished, but I point out that if that were done, much of the work now performed by it would still have to be done by other departments. Soon after I took charge of the Department of Information, I discussed with my colleagues in the Cabinet and on the Advisory War Council, whether the department should continue. After consideration, both the Advisory War Council and the Cabinet decided that the department should continue to function. I think that the new Minister in charge of that department will find that much of the criticism levelled against it has been unfair. Moreover, much of the work done by it has not been given recognition, because it has been done indirectly. Other people have received the credit. Whatever may be done in an effort to save money, I urge the Minister no’, to reduce the vote in relation to our activities in the United States of America, as was suggested in the press a few days ago. When the Australian News Bureau was first (established an New York, Australia was very little known to our cousins across the Pacific, ft has justified its existence in every way and has given Australia extraordinarily good publicity.

Senator Ashley:

– The present Government has made a vastly greater contribution towards bringing about closer relations with the United States of America than the previous Government. It was responsible for the reduction of the cable rates.

Senator FOLL:

– The reduction of cable rates was brought about prior to tha advent of the present Government. Furthermore, the subsidy paid by the Commonwealth Government to the American Cable .Service was formulated long before the honorable senator ever dreamt that he would become Minister for Information.

A complaint has been brought to my notice in relation to the management of the small arms factory at Lithgow. Unfortunately, we have had at Lithgow a continuation of minor industrial disputes and hold-ups which have been very irritating to the Department of Munitions and very costly to the Australian war effort. I had a call some time ago from a returned soldier who was by trade a ‘fitter and turner. At the time,’ he was not following his own trade, but he was anxious to secure work in one of the factories doing government war work. I submitted his name to the Minister for Munitions, and he was called up to report at Lithgow, where he was given a position as what is known as a section hand. He told me that all he did was to walk about doing absolutely nothing for several days. Me asked the foreman in charge to give him some practical work. He said that, in addition to section hands, there were also the recognized foremen overlooking the work for the ordinary operatives. These foremen are called charge hands. They walk about and give advice to machinists. He was asked whether he would like to be put on a bench. When bo asked’ what he had to do, he was told to fill in the time as best he could. Seeing some pipe brackets lying about, he decided to go on making some more. He had to walk several hundred yards to get the piping, then take it somewhere else to be sawn, shift it. somewhere else to be threaded, and then take it to the driller* and welders and await their pleasure. He worked an eleven-hour shift and received over £11 a week. Prior to taking on that work, his wages were about £6 a week. Although it was a Godsend to him to get an additional £5 a week, he was so disgusted that, in spite of the fact that he could have done with the extra money, he resumed his old job at about £6 a week. This man, who is a good unionist, said that the union leaders have complete control of the factory and that the foremen are helpless. The operatives on the machines have no check whatsoever on the number of articles they turn out in a day. He says that one man simply walks around ali day making sure the fire extinguishers are on the wall.

Senator Courtice:

– Those conditions prevailed during the period of office of governments of which the honorable senator was a member.

Senator FOLL:

– If the only contribution the honorable senator can make is to say that these conditions prevailed under other governments, then the outlook of honorable senators supporting the Government is hopeless. Whether the honorable senator likes it or not, I shall continue to bring matters such as this to the notice of the Government in the hope that something will be done to rectify them. I trust that the Parliament will be kept in session and that there will be no rush into recess in order to stifle discussion of important matters such as this. I am naturally gravely concerned to have a report of this kind from a conscientious returned soldier unionist who is not prepared to take money for which he cannot give an adequate return. I ask the Government to investigate the matter. If this state of affairs exists at Lithgow, or at any other munitions factory, it is a clear demonstration that we are not making our full war effort.

I propose now to deal briefly with another matter which I had intended to discuss on the adjournment of the Senate, to-night, but which I think might more probably be discussed during this debate.

I refer to an attack made by a member of the House of Representatives, the honorable member for Watson (Mr. Falstein) on the Director of Gun Ammunition, Mr. Smith, in the course of which serious charges were made of what virtually amounted to corruption. I do not know any of the circumstances surrounding the case mentioned by the honorable member for Watson. If he is correctly reported in the press, he said that the Director of Gun Ammunition so abused his position as to use the time, material and services of men doing Government work to build a horse float for his own private use, and that the cost of the construction of the float was charged to the Government as munitions work.

Senator A J McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– These charges are being inquired into tomorrow by the Joint Committee on War Expenditure.

Senator FOLL:

– The fact that these charges are to be inquired into by a joint committee does not necessarily mean that I should not discuss them further. I point out that if charges of that kind made against a man occupying a high executive position in the Department of Munitions cannot be substantiated, they should be withdrawn and an apology tendered. If the charges are proved, drastic action should be taken Immediately. If they are not proved, the same publicity that was given to them should be given to their rebuttal. If the charges cannot be substantiated, 1 suggest that the Prime Minister should rebuke those colleagues of his who are prone to defame prominent men who are doing their best to serve Australia in a very difficult time. I do not propose to discuss in detail at this stage the measures consequent on the budget as an opportunity will be afforded to do so on a later occasion. I merely say now that I trust that the Government will reconsider ite proposal to combine, the. incomes of husbands- and wives for the purpose of arriving at the rate of tax to be applied to both incomes. Such taxation is aimed specifically at those who are trying to be thrifty and ensure that their families do not become a charge upon the nation after their parents’ decease. I remind the Government, that there, are many wives who have inherited property in their own right. There are others, who, by their own efforts, have entered one of the professions, but who, because they happen to marry, are to be called upon to pay a higher rata of tax on their earnings than their unmarried competitors. Such taxation is a relic of the dark ages. It is taking us back to the days when a wife was a mere chattel of her husband. It is not worthy of a modern Government. I trust that the Government will review this proposal because I feel sure that when it was first made its serious, implications were not fully appreciated.

We naturally regret that, after all the undertakings given by the Prime Minister, by the Leader of the Senate and other Ministers, that they would put forward a full war effort, they have not stood up to their responsibilities by telling the people just what is and will be expected of them before the war is over. Rather have they sought the easy way and as the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives said : “ They have one eye on the electorate rather than both eyes on the winning of the war “.

Senator Ashley:

– -The honorable senator has made serious charges against the management of the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow. I suggest, that he lays the letter from which he has quoted on the table of the Senate or that it be incorporated in Hansard.

Senator FOLL:

– I shall hand it to Hansard. The particulars contained in it are embodied in the speech which I have just delivered.

Debate (on motion by Senator James McLachlan) adjourned.

page 270

ADJOURNMENT

Australian Imperial Force: Cashiering in 1914-18 - Coal Stocks - Flax Mills - Rifle Clubs - Voluntary Defence Corps.

Motion (by Senator Keane) proposed -

That the Senate do now adjourn.

Senator AMOUR:
New South Wales

, - I wish to refer briefly to a speech which I delivered in the Senate >n the 26th June last, which has given rise to some comment. I feel that I owe an explanation to a number of officers of the 18th Battalion, who served in the last war. During my speech on that occasion I clearly stated the reasons that prompted me to refer to this matter. I met a number of officers at the Dubbo Military Camp. They had been there for twelve months training a division preparatory to going overseas. They had done the necessary training with the men, including bivouac and long route marches, and like the men they were very fit. They had served in the last war. They stayed with the Army and had obtained commissions. They complained very bitterly to me that whilst the boys whom they had trained went to the war, including a number of those who had served with them in the last war, they themselves were denied the privilege of going overseas as soldiers. Like many other diggers they felt that they were physically fit and should have been given an opportunity to go along with the boys they had trained. I said that the officers who took them away and who had just come fresh from Duntroon had not been with the men during their training. They said that they prayed for the men but not for the officers. During a speech which lasted an hour and a half I said that I had had experience in the 18th Battalion where the colonel, the battalion major, another major and several subalterns had been cashiered for cowardice. I uttered those words. Apparently it was not a charge that was “ put over “ the last Australian Imperial Force. I would say that probably the military system considered that they lacked judgment; that they were inexperienced and could not size up a difficult situation. However, as the term was known among the diggers, they knew that when a fellow was discharged from the Army whilst the battalion was on service he had “gone up “ for cowardice. I do not want that to go abroad because I understand that a battalion had approximately 26 officers, and as, 1 believe, the 18th Battalion was wiped out four times I assume that it had at least 100 officers. I knew many of them. I do not feel that I should mention some names and not mention all of them. But I knew officers in that battalion who were game and whom nothing could stop. I should not like them to think that the seven subalterns to whom I referred included any of them. Consequently I am bound to withdraw the word cowardice “.

Senator Collett:

– And apologize.

Senator AMOUR:

– I do not intend to apologize.

Senator Collett:

– The honorable senator was not present?

Senator AMOUR:

– I was not present all the time. I went to the war when I was fifteen years of age and was returned to Australia owing to a gunshot wound when I was seventeen years of age. I left Australia in 1915 and came back in 1917. I was not at the war all the time. I have already told honorable senators that I spent a long time overseas. I spent my sixteenth birthday in France. I have nothing in my military record to be ashamed of.

Senator Collett:

– The honorable senator should be ashamed of some of the statements he has made.

Senator AMOUR:

– I am not ashamed of any of my statements. Somebody supplied an article which was published in Smith’s Weekly on the 18th November last from which I take the following extracts : -

SENATOR AMOUR’S ATTACK ON 18th BATTALION OFFICERS.

Australiahas been shocked by the recent statements of Senator Amour, claiming that nine officers of the 18th Battalion, Australian Imperial Force, including Colonel Chapman, Major McDonald, Lieutenant Pritchard, and six other lieutenants, had been cashiered for cowardice and sent home to Australia in disgrace.

Captain John O’Donnell, an officer of the 18th, has written this answer to the Senator, claiming that the allegations are “ cruel lies “- “ First officer mentioned by the Senator, who shelters under Parliamentary privilege, is the late Lieutenant-Colonel A. E. Chapman, V.D., who was the original battalion commander. “ Lieutenant-Colonel Chapman saw service in the South African War and commanded the 24th Infantry Regiment, Australian Military Forces, prior to being appointed to command the 18th Battalion, Australian Imperial Force, early in 1915. “ He remained in command of the battalion during the action which lasted from August 22 to 29, 1915, and which is described in an official account published on Gallipoli underdate September 3 in the following terms: -

This gallant action adds 400 more acres of Turkish territory to the country occupied by ANZAC.The fighting during these operations was almost entirely hand-to-hand and of a very severe nature.”

I am sad to say that that action was admitted by everybody to be a blunder. Many Australians lost their lives in it; and we lost the 400 acres. The article continues - “ Official records show that of 750 members of the unit engaged in the action on August 22 there were 382 casualties, of whom one-half were killed. By August 29 there were very few of the battalion left, and it was withdrawn from the line to reserve. “ Lieutenant-Colonel Chapman left the unit when it was withdrawn to reserve and subsequently returned to Australia, where he was allowed to resign his appointment on December 14, 1915. “He was subsequently issued with the 1914-15 Star, General Service and Victory medals, ample proof that he was not cashiered.”

Lieutenant-Colonel Chapman was allowed to resign. Because he was allowed to resign and because he was issued with certain medals I am bound to say that I cannot substantiate my statement, because I do not know what the decision of the Military Board of that time was. It appears that the board was prepared to give those medals to anybody at all. I do not want to labour the matter. However, I emphasize that many of the officers of that battalion were never in doubt. They were gallant men, like the members of the battalion who did a good job. I repeat that I cast no aspersion whatever on them. I cast no aspersion on Pritchard. He was a game man. He should never have been sent toFrance. He had been seriously wounded and his nerves were shattered. For that reason I do not think that Pritchard was a. coward. He was unable to go on and there was nothing against him for that. That is how I feel about it. I am not concerned about Chapman. I have seen men shot and wounded and have spent many nights attending to them. When I thought of that, and of the gallant men who went overseas, I felt very sad about them. I would never have mentioned the matter in ordinary circumstances. It just crossed my mind when I was thinking of the diggers of the last war who could be serving in this war, and who want to go to this war but have been denied that right and privilege. I hope that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) will take steps to ensure that those men who served in the last war and who to-day enjoy health and strength and prove themselves to be physically fit by continuous training in military camps will have a chance to go to this war. I want nothing more than that. I believe that such men would be an inspiration to our younger soldiers under them and would command their respect because of the confidence which they would create in view of their previous experience under fire. That is my contention regarding the matter. If 1 have offended some officers of the battalion who feel that I have cast some aspersion on them I shall withdraw my statement. I do not want to offend anybody, but I am not at all in sympathy with Chapman.

Senator FRASER:
Minister for External Territories · Western Australia · ALP

– This afternoon the Leader of the Opposition (Senator McLeay) asked me, as Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development, upon notice, the following question: -

In view of the oft-reported serious shortage of coal stocks in Victoria and South Australia, will the Minister advise what steps, if any, have been or are being taken by the Government to step up the production of coal?

The Minister for Supply and Development has now supplied the following answer : -

The necessity for urgently building up stocks of coal in Victoria and South Australia is realized, and the Prime Minister has recently directed that everything possible be done to quickly improve the position. The Coal Commissioner has been requested to take action in collaboration with the Department of Commerce, which controls shipping, to ensure that effect is given to the Prime Minister’s wishes. It is expected that stocks in Victoria will have reached a satisfactory level by the end of December. The position is developing satisfactorily in South Australia, and the honorable senator may be assured that the matter of the supply of coal to these States will continue to receive our close attention.

Senator AYLETT:
Tasmania

– I bring to the attention of the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development the urgent necessity for acting upon the recommendations made in an interim report presented recently by the Joint ‘Committee on Rural Industries in connexion with the building of flax mills. The committee urged the Government to take, immediate steps to ensure that flax mills would be constructed and machinery installed for the processing of the coming season’s crop. Honorable senators might not realize that the area in production this season is 60,000 acres as compared with 20,000 acres sown last season. The last season was bad whereas this season promises to be unusually good. Should that prove to be the case approximately £500,000 will hare to be provided in order to pay for the raw material alone, whilst approximately £1,000,000 will be required for the processing of that raw material. I now inform the Senate that in some areas the mills are not yet ready. The Flax Production Committee has had ample time in which to get the mills ready to handle the coming crop; but it seems that it is falling down on its job. If that is the case the Minister should, take action immediately in order to ensure that the mills are ready to handle the coming crop.

Senator Herbert Hays:

– The Flax Production Committee has given an assurance that they will be ready.

Senator AYLETT:

– I now inform honorable senators that at one particular place the committee has just acquired the land on which the mills are to be erected. I did not intend to go into details, but evidence has been given before the Joint Committee on Rural Industries that the mills must be ready by the end of December at the latest, in order to be able to handle the coming season’s crop. If the committee has just acquired land on which to erect some of the mills this Government will require to act with greater speed than either the previous Government or the board has acted in the past. If the mills are not ready it will mean double, and triple, handling and stacking the flax in the rain. Furthermore, a demand will be made on labour for the construction of the mills in the middle of the harvesting when every available man will be required to handle the crop. I have heard much in this chamber to-day about our man-power problem. That problem in many instances is already upon us, and will become more serious in the future. All of us should realize the seriousness of the delay which will be caused if these mills are not built immediately and the necessary machinery installed in time to handle the coming crop. I hope that my remarks will be conveyed to the Minister for Supply and Development (Mr. Beasley), and that they will be given immediate attention, not merely because I ask that that the mills be constructed, but also because flax fibre is urgently needed in our war effort.

Senator BRAND:
Victoria

.- I desire to draw attention to the dissatisfaction of rifle club members in regard to the decision to withdraw their private rifles and issue them to other units. No objection is taken to the Government purchasing rifles from owners who have enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force or the Royal Australian Air Force, but when rifle club members have joined the Volunteer Defence Corps, now termed the Home Guard, it is contended that they should be allowed to retain their rifles. About 8,000 men have joined the Volunteer Defence Corps. These men are expert shots. They have trained themselves to become snipers, a role which, some day, the Volunteer Defence Corps may be called upon to play. About 30 per cent, of the 50,000 members of the Volunteer Defence Corps have never handled a rifle. Here is a golden opportunity for the military authorities to utilize the services of these specialists. Instead, the Government proposes to buy back these rifles and re-adjust them for use by other branches of the service. In each British Army battalion there is a section of sniping specialists armed with short rifles fitted with aperture sights. Rifle club members are identical with these sections, yet the Commonwealth Army authorities have recommended that the rifles be withdrawn from our expert snipers and handed over to others, who have still to learn to shoot straight. The rifle apparently is not considered an obsolete weapon or the Small

Arms Factory at Lithgow would not he turning out 1,000 a week. I shall not accept the statement that there is a shortage of rifles; it is the distribution which is at fault. I respectfully ask that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) look into this matter more closely. Here are men who, in peace time, at little expense to the country, have qualified themselves for the task that they may be called upon to undertake. Instead of encouraging them to join the Volunteer Defence Corps the military authorities are discouraging them. Under the defence plans prepared in pre-war days, rifle club members were officially reservists, and were sworn in as such, but as this war progressed, for various reasons, the scheme never matured. Hundreds enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force, hundreds were called up for compulsory service and are now on the active list of Militia units, others again were listed in reserved occupations. Prior to the formation of the Volunteer Defence Corps many thousands of rifle club members were only too anxious to continue in the role of reservists, keeping themselves in practice and giving instruction in local centres to scores of young and middleaged men who hitherto took no interest in defence. Suddenly, all this patriotic activity ceased, and rifle clubs were put in cold storage because no ammunition was available. That is the position to-day, though millions of rounds are turned out weekly in our small arms ammunition factories. Seeing no prospect of serving their country as members of rifle clubs, about 8,000 linked up with the Volunteer Defence Corps. Imagine their disappointment when, instead of taking their own rifles with them, they were told that they could not do so, but must sell their rifles - specially prepared for sniping - to the Government. The whole business shows a short-sighted policy. The Volunteer Defence Corps is hampered in its training, and the enthusiasm of thousands of patriotic citizens dampened. It may be argued that the output of small arms ammunition has not yet reached the maximum required for overseas requirements and a general reserve within the Commonwealth. I am not in a position to say what these requirements are, but I do know that the amount of ammunition allotted to units of our Home Defence Army for training in the use of the Vickers machine gun, Lewis gun, Bren gun, and the rifle is totally inadequate. I shudder to think what would happen if our Militia Forces were called into action with a half-baked knowledge of the weapons with which they are armed. Is there no way of speeding up the manufacture of not only small-arm ammunition, hut also rifles. I hope that the Minister for the Army will take a stand in this matter and remove the suspicion that our Australian Army gets only what is left over. Our Army, including the Voluntary Defence Corps, must be efficient, otherwise our defence is only a sham.

Senator HERBERT HAYS:
Tasmania

– Lest the interjection which I made when Senator Aylett was speaking be misunderstood, I should like to explain that - 1 share the honorable senator’s anxiety in regard to the erection of flax mills. In its interim report, the Joint Committee on Rural Industries drew the attention of the Minister for Supply and Development (Mr. Beasley) to this matter, and all I wished to imply by my interjection was that the matter had been brought to the notice of the Flax Production Committee, whose responsibility it is to see that these mills are fully equipped to handle the forthcoming crop, which promises to be very heavy, and that the committee gave an assurance that the mills would be in readiness for the forthcoming crop. I agree that this matter should be brought to the notice of the Minister again.- No doubt, the Minister, in turn, will refer it back to the Flax Production Committee, which, I feel sure, will give the same assurance to the Minister as it gave to the Joint Committee on Rural Industries a few weeks ago.

Senator Aylett:

– An assurance is not worth anything in this case.

Senator HERBERT HAYS:

– I do not wish my interjection to be misunderstood. I am not unmindful of the colossal task which confronts the Flax

Production Committee, and all I say is that it gave an assurance that the equipment would be ready to handle the 1940-41 crop.

Motion - by leave - temporarily withdrawn.

page 275

JOINT COMMITTEE ON WAR EXPENDITURE

Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that Mr. Conelan and Mr. Lawson had been discharged from attendance on the Joint Committee on War Expenditure; and that Mr. Morgan had been appointed to serve thereon; and requesting that the Senate appoint an additional member to serve on the committee.

Motion (by Senator Collings) - by leave - agreed to -

That the Senate agrees to appoint an additional member of the Senate to serve on the Joint Committee on War Expenditure, as requested by the House of Representatives.

That Senators Ashley and Clothier be discharged from attendance, and that Senators Arthur, Darcey and Lamp be appointed to serve, on such committee.

That the foregoing resolutions be communicated to the House of Representatives by message.

page 275

JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY

Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that Mr. Perkins had resigned as chairman of the Joint Committee on Social Security, and that Mr. Barnard had been appointed chairman in his stead.

Motion (by SenatorCollings) - by leave - agreed to -

That the Senate concurs in the appointment of Mr. Barnard as chairman of the Joint Committee on Social Security in place of Mr. Perkins, resigned as chairman.

That Senator Keane be discharged from attendance, and that Senator Arnold be appointed to serve, on such committee.

That the foregoing resolutions be communicated to the House of Representatives by message.

page 275

JOINT COMMITTEE ON PROFITS

Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that Mr. Watkins had been discharged from attendance on the Joint Committee on

Profits, and requesting that the Senate appoint an additional member to serve on the committee.

Motion (by Senator Collings) - by leave - agreed to -

That the Senate agrees to appoint an additional member of the Senate to serve on the Joint Committee on Profits, as requested by the House of Representatives.

That Senator Armstrong be discharged from attendance, and that Senators Courtier and Large be appointed to serve, on such committee.

That the foregoing resolutions be communicated to the House of Representatives by message.

page 275

JOINT COMMITTEE ON RURAL INDUSTRIES

Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that Mr. Frost and Mr. Scully had been discharged from attendance on the Joint Committee on Rural Industries, and that Mr. Raker and Mr. Langtry had been appointed to serve thereon.

page 275

ADJOURNMENT

Refining of Crude Oil

Motion (by Senator Keane) again proposed -

That the Senate do now adjourn.

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

.- On the 18th September last, a formal motion for the adjournment of the Senate was moved by the Postmaster-General (Senator Ashley) in order to discuss an application by Mr. D. A. Craig and others for permission to establish a refinery for the treatment of crude oil, petrol, and bitumen. Serious objection was taken at that time by members of the then Opposition to the fact that the application had been rejected by the Capital Issues Advisory Board. Can the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) inform me whether that application has been renewed, and whether it has been granted by the Government?

Senator KEANE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · Victoria · ALP

.- in reply - No further application has been been made by Mr. Craig. The remarks of Senator Brand with regard to rifle clubs will be brought to the notice of the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde).

page 276

PAPERS

The following papers were pre sented : -

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. -

No. 29 of 1941 - Commonwealth Foremen’s Association; and Amalgamated Engineering Union.

No. 30 of 1941- Amalgamated Postal Workers’ Union of Australia and others; Commonwealth Storemen and Packers’ Union ; Commonwealth Naval Storehousemen’s Association; and Arms, Explosives and Munition Workers’ Federation of Australia.

Australian Imperial Force Canteens Funds Act - Twenty-first Annual Report for year 1940-41.

Sugar Agreement - Tenth Annual Report of the Fruit Industry Suga r Concession Committee for theyear ended 31st August, 1941.

Australian Soldiers’ Repatriation Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1941, No. 259.

Customs Act - Proclamation, dated 29th October, 1941, prohibiting the exportation (except under certain conditions) of Calcium carbide; Sodium carbonate (soda crystals).

Defence Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1941, Nos. 245, 246.

High Commissioner Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1941, No. 258.

Gold Mining Encouragement Acts - RegulationsStatutory Rules 1941, No. 243.

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired at -

Bega, New South Wales - For Defence purposes.

Footscray, Victoria - For Defence purposes (2).

Laura, South Australia - For Defence purposes.

National Security Act -

National Security (General) Regulations - Orders -

Control of lights and traffic (5).

Taking (possession of land, &c. (50).

Use of land (12).

National Security (Liquid Fuel) Regulations - Order -

Liquid Fuel (Restriction on Use of certain Substances).

Regulations - Statutory Rules 1941, Nos. 247, 248, 249, 250, 252, 253, 254, 255.

New Guinea Act - Ordinances of 1941 -

No. 5 - Ordinances Interpretation.

No. 17 - Appropriation (No. 3) 1940-41.

No. 18 - Mortgagors’ Relief (No. 2).

No. 19 - Succession Duties.

No. 20 - Dog.

No. 21- Police Offences (No. 2).

No. 23- Customs Tariff (No. 2).

No. 24 - Mines and Works Regulation.

Norfolk Island Act - Ordinances of 1941 -

No. 3- Child Welfare.

No. 4 - Child Welfare Agreement.

No. 5 - Legitimation.

Patents Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules. 1941, No. 240.

Petroleum Oil Search Acts - Statement of Expenditure for period 28th May, 1936, to 30th June, 1941.

Seat of Government Acceptance Act and Seat of Government (Administration) Act - Ordinance No. 16 of 1941 - Motor Traffic

Trade Marks Act - Regulations- Statutory Rules 1941, No. 241.

Senate adjourned at 10.31 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 12 November 1941, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1941/19411112_senate_16_169/>.

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Senate12 November 1941

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Senator JAMES McLACHLAN:SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

SENATOR SWORN

QUESTION

SUPPLIES AT DARWIN

Senator ARMSTRONG:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator COLLINGS:QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1937

WOOL APPRAISEMENT

Albany - Townsville

Senator E B JOHNSTON:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FRASER:Minister for External Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Senator COOPER:QUEENSLAND

Senator FRASER:

APPLES AND PEARS

Report of Committee

Senator FRASER:Minister for External Territories · Western Australia · ALP

QUESTION

CONTROL OF PRIVATE BANKS

Senator McLEAY:SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator COLLINGS:QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1937

QUESTION

AIRCRAFTMANUFACTURE

Senator E B JOHNSTON:

Senator CAMERON:Minister for Aircraft Production · VICTORIA · ALP

PREFERENCE TO RETURNED SOLDIERS

QUESTION

TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION WITH WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator COLLETT:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator ASHLEY:Minister for Information · NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

EX-SERVICE MEN

Senator COLLETT:

Senator ASHLEY:ALP

QUESTION

RATIONING OF RAILWAY TRAVELLING

Senator KEANE:Minister for Trade and Customs · VICTORIA · ALP

QUESTION

SERVICE PENSIONS

Senator COOPER:

Senator CAMERON:ALP

QUESTION

VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS

Senator BRAND:VICTORIA

Senator KEANE:ALP

QUESTION

RAIL LINK BETWEEN ALICE SPRINGS AND BIRDUM

Senator BRAND:

Senator KEANE:ALP

QUESTION

MIGRATION FROM TASMANIA

Senator LAMP:through Senator Clothier

Senator KEANE:ALP

QUESTION

POTATOES

Senator LAMP:through Senator Darcey

Senator FRASER:ALP

QUESTION

RUTHERFORD MUNITIONS FACTORY

Senator ARNOLD:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator FRASER:ALP

QUESTION

OFFICIAL HISTORY OF AUSTRALIA IN THE WAR OF 1914-18;

Senator ARMSTRONG:

Senator COLLINGS:Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · ALP

QUESTION

INCOME TAX

Senator AYLETT:TASMANIA

Senator KEANE:ALP

QUESTION

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Senator UPPILL:through Senator James MoLachlan

Senator FRASER:ALP

QUESTION

ESTIMATES AND BUDGET PAPERS 1941-42 (REVISED)

Senator McLEAY:Leader of the Opposition · South Australia

Senator Courtice:

Senator McLEAY:

Senator Fraser:

Senator McLEAY:

Senate
12 November 1941

Senator JAMES McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

Senator ARMSTRONG:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator COLLINGS:
QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1937

Senator E B JOHNSTON:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FRASER:
Minister for External Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Senator COOPER:
QUEENSLAND

Senator FRASER:
Minister for External Territories · Western Australia · ALP

Senator McLEAY:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator COLLINGS:
QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1937

Senator CAMERON:
Minister for Aircraft Production · VICTORIA · ALP

Senator COLLETT:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator ASHLEY:
Minister for Information · NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator ASHLEY:
ALP

Senator KEANE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · VICTORIA · ALP

Senator CAMERON:
ALP

Senator BRAND:
VICTORIA

Senator KEANE:
ALP

Senator KEANE:
ALP

Senator LAMP:
through Senator Clothier

Senator KEANE:
ALP

Senator LAMP:
through Senator Darcey

Senator FRASER:
ALP

Senator ARNOLD:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator FRASER:
ALP

Senator COLLINGS:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator AYLETT:
TASMANIA

Senator KEANE:
ALP

Senator UPPILL:
through Senator James MoLachlan

Senator FRASER:
ALP

Senator McLEAY:
Leader of the Opposition · South Australia

Senator A J McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator McBRIDE:
South Australia

Senator SPICER:
Victoria

Senator A J McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT