Senate
29 May 1940

15^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- FLAX INDUSTRY
PORT AUGUSTA WHARF
QUESTION
- NO-CONSCRIPTION LEAGUE
QUESTION
- TIMBER FOR PUBLIC WORKS
QUESTION
- SELECTION OF SENATE CANDIDATE
MAKINE SURVEY IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA
QUESTION
- NAVAL VICTUALLING OPERATIONS
QUESTION
- CHARCOAL GAS-PRODUCERS
QUESTION
- MILITARY HOSPITAL IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA
DEFENCE CONTRACTS
- Western Australian Tenderers
QUESTION
- WOOL SUBSTITUTES
QUESTION
- APPLE AND PEAR ACQUISITION SCHEME
QUESTION
- OIL SEARCH COMPANIES
QUESTION
- INSCRIBED STOCK
EMPIRE AIR TRAINING SCHEME
- Ministerial Statement
WAR IN EUROPE
- Capitulation of Belgium - Ministerial Statement
PETROLEUM OIL SEARCH BILL 1940
- Second Reading
ASSENT TO BILLS
SUGAR AGREEMENT BILL 1940
POSTANDTELEGRAPH RATES BILL 1940
- Second Reading
FINANCIAL STATEMENT 1940-41
QUESTION
- WE WANT A LABOUR GOVERNMENT
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS : PRECEDENCE
POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL 1940
- Second Reading
POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES (DEFENCE FORCES) BILL 1940
PAPERS

The President (Senator the Hon J.R. Hayes) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

” SIXTH COLUMN.”

SenatorCOLLINGS.- In view of the statement made in the House of Representatives on Monday last by the Prime Minister to the effect that the matter of forming a “ sixth column “ is now engaging the attention of the Cabinet, will the Minister representing the Prime Minister say whether it is to be understood that there is, or can he, any intention on the part of the Government to allow the formation of any organization whatever, having for its avowed purpose the suppression or coercion of citizens as individuals, or as members of any other organization not approved of by this proposed “ sixth column “ ? “Will the Minister take immediate steps to allay public apprehension in respect of this matter?

Senator McLEAY. - The matter will be referred to the Prime Minister.

page 1411

QUESTION

FLAX INDUSTRY

Senator LAMP:
TASMANIA

– When will the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development be in a position to make a statement to the Senate with regard to the position of the flax industry?

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · UAP

– I shall ask the Minister for Supply and: Development to secure, as soon as possible, the information desired by the honorable senator.

“HANDS OFF RUSSIA “ RESOLUTION.

SenatorCOLLINIGS.-Has the Minister representing the Prime Minister seen the report published in the Canberra and other southern newspapers yesterday, in which the Attorney-General and Minister for Industry (Mr. Hughes) is reported to have said, in a broadcast address on Monday night - “ Resolutions warning us to keep our hands off Russia, inspired by the ‘Communists, have been adopted by the Labour party”? As the Australian Labour party has publicly, emphatically and officially repudiated the resolution referred to, will the Prime Minister take steps to reprimand Mr. Hughes for his grossly inaccurate statement, and give full publicity to such reprimand ?

Senator ALLAN MacDONALD.Will the Assistant Minister for Commerce make inquiries, and advise the Senate, regarding the progress made by the Department of Commerce with the Admiralty in connexion with the proposed marine survey of the north-western const of Western Australia?

Senator McBRIDE:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

– I shallmake the inquiries suggested, and shall supply tothe honorable senator later the information desired by him.

page 1412

QUESTION

NAVAL VICTUALLING OPERATIONS

Senator FOLL:
UAP

– On the 24th May, Senator Eraser asked the following questions, upon notice: -

In view of the policy of the Government in relation to preference to ex-servicee men. why has Mr. W. J. Williams, superintendent of the Sydney markets, been appointed supervisor of Food Transport for the duration of the war, at a salary of £796?
Is it a fact that, in contrast to the above appointment, Lieutenant-Commander P. P. Anderson, V.D.,R.A.N.R., hasbeen recalled under the man-power provisions, from service with the Government and sent to his civil occupation of secretary of the metropolitan markets, Perth? 3.Is it a fact that Lieutenant-Commander Anderson ‘saw service in the last war, and has been secretary of the metropolitan markets in Perth for a period of twelve years?
If the replies to questions 1 and 2 arc in the affirmative, why did not the Government take advantage of LieutenantCommander Anderson’s special qualifications for such a position, instead of making an appointment outside the Service and contrary to the policy of the Government?

The Minister for the Navy has now furnished the following replies to the honorable senator’s questions: -

The war entailed upon the Navy Department increased responsibility for the supervision of foodstuffs intended for the Navy and Army, andthe Sydney City Council kindly loaned the services of Mr. Williams, who is an expert in foodstuffs. The loan is only temporary.
Lieutenant-Commander Anderson was mobilized for duty with the Examination Service at Fremantle, but the Minister for Lands urgently requested that he be released to resume duty with the Metropolitan Market Trust, and the request was approved.
Yes.
Lieutenant-Commander Anderson has never expressed any desire to be considered for a civil appointment, and has not stated that his services would be available in that capacity.

page 1413

QUESTION

CHARCOAL GAS-PRODUCERS

Senator CUNNINGHAM:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Government has promised to pay a bonus for the production of approved types of charcoal gas-producers for use in motor vehicles and tractors?
How many types of charcoal gasproducers have been approved?
What arc the total amounts (if any) paid in bonuses to successful firms or persons?

Senator FOLL:
UAP

– The Minister for Supply and Development has supplied the following answers: -

The Government has not made any promise to pay a bonus for the production of approved types of charcoal gas-producers.
Five types of charcoal gas-producers have been approved.
No amount has been paid in bonuses to any firm or person.

page 1413

QUESTION

MILITARY HOSPITAL IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FRASER:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Army, upon notice -

What is the cost and area of land purchased ‘for the proposed military hospital in Western Australia?
Is it a fact that accommodation will only provide for 100 beds when the hospital is erected? If so, does the Minister consider that such accommodation meets with the requirements of that State?
In view of the fact that Western Australia is nearest to the theatre of war, and that New South Wales and Victoria’ are being provided with hospitals to accommodate 1,200 and 1,000 beds respectively, is the Minister of the opinion that the accommodation provided in Western Australia is sufficient? . ..

Senator FOLL:
UAP

– The Minister for the Army has supplied the’ following answers: -

The area of the site selected is 25 acres. The purchase price is now the subject of negotiation. 2 and 3. The present intention is to provide accommodation for 100,600 and 500 beds in the military hospitals which are to be erected in Perth, Sydney and Melbourne, respectively. Any expansion of this accommodation will be a matter for future consideration.

page 1413

DEFENCE CONTRACTS

Western Australian Tenderers

Senator CUNNINGHAM:

asked the

Minister for Supply and Development, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the non-success of Western Australian trading firms in securing contracts for Army requirements is alleged to be due to their being unable to get down to eastern States prices, owing to -
1. higher rates of pay to, employees in Western Australian ‘industries;
2. higher premium payments for workers’ compensation insurance;
3. the application andenforcement of the provisions of the Western Australian Factories and Shops Act?
If so, will he allow for the marginaldifferences when dealing with each tender submitted for contract prices?

Senator FOLL:
UAP

– The Minister for Supply and Development has supplied the following answers: - 1 and 2. I understand that it has been claimed that the factors mentioned have militated against Western Australian tenderers receiving contracts for some defence supplies, but, in the absence of specific instances of the particular class of labour concerned, I am unable to confirm the claim. If the honorable senator will supply such particulars, I shall be pleased to consider the second part of his question.

page 1413

QUESTION

WOOL SUBSTITUTES

Senator CLOTHIER:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Min ister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

Is the Government,through the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, or any other department, doing any’research work relative to wood-fibre substitutes for wool,?
Is it a fact that such substitutes are of such a character that it is claimed by experts to be impossible to tell the finished products from wool except by certain technical tests?
Is it a fact that 2,000,000,000 lb. weight of this wool fibre was produced during last year and that half of that quantity was produced by Japan?
Whatsteps, if any, does the Government propose to take to prevent the entry of this substitute material into Australia?

Senator McBRIDE:
UAP

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers : -

No.
The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research has no knowledge of any such claim.
The following figures have been obtained from a trade journal regarding rayon production for 1939: -

Cloths made from synthetic fibres which it is considered resemble worsted, tweeds, serges or flannels are dutiable at the substantial protectiverates applicable to woollen pieces.

page 1414

QUESTION

APPLE AND PEAR ACQUISITION SCHEME

Senator AYLETT:
TASMANIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

In connexion with the series of questions asked by Senator Aylett on the 23rd April, 1940, in relation to the apple and pear acquisition scheme, will the Minister supply the names of the three members of the State Committee appointed as a sub-committee to confer with the Chamber of Fruit and Vegetable Industries on matters arising between meetings ? .
Is it a fact that a charge of1d. per case for receiving and delivery is being collected by agents in Sydney on all interstate fruit, and id. per case is being rebated to the State Committee towards the expenses of the committee?
If so, why is it that New South Wales fruit is exempt from such charges towards the expenses of their own committee?

Senator McBRIDE:
UAP

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers : -

Messrs. E. E. Herrod, J. Holmes and L. J. Jenkins. 2 and 3. The Apple and Pear Board has approved of the customary charge of1d. per case by agents in Sydney for the receiving and delivery of interstate fruit. No portion of this charge goes to the State Committee, but1/2d. per case is repaid to the Apple and Pear Board and is credited to the rebates and commissions account of the board at the Commonwealth Bank, Melbourne.

page 1414

QUESTION

OIL SEARCH COMPANIES

Senator ARTHUR:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

Will the Minister supply the Senate with the names of the person or persons, or company or companies, who have been granted permission to raise capital by public subscription for the search for oil, or for scout boring in Victoria, stating the respective amounts, and the dates permission was granted?

SenatorMcBRIDE. - The Treasurer has supplied the following answer: -

The particulars which are submitted to the Treasury in connexion with applications to issue capital are confidential. The Treasurer is therefore unable to supply the details asked for.

page 1414

QUESTION

INSCRIBED STOCK

Senator DARCEY:
TASMANIA

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

Will the Minister inform the Senate what is the amount of inscribed stock taken up by the private banks for their employees and the number of employees who are receiving this benefit?
Has it been stated that the banks are taking this action in a disinterested manner?

Senator McBRIDE:
UAP

– The Treasurer has supplied the following answer: - 1 and 2. I have no information on this matter.

page 1414

EMPIRE AIR TRAINING SCHEME

Ministerial Statement

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

– by leave - read the statement made in the House of Representatives by the Minister for Air (Mr. Fairbairn) (vide page 1448).

page 1414

WAR IN EUROPE

Capitulation of Belgium - Ministerial Statement

Senator COLLETT:
Minister in charge of War Service Homes · Western Australia · UAP

– by leave - Honorable senators will realize that the position of the Allied forces, which have been holding the German drive across

Flanders and northern France, has been most gravely affected by the sudden capitulation of the Belgian Army.. The decision of the King of the Belgians to surrender was announced early yesterday morning.Up to that time the situation was that British, French and Belgian divisions were holding a lino extending roughly in a semicircle from the French coast near Dunkirk round to the north Belgian coast. Though this line was irregular and was subject at several points to intense German pressure, it did represent a barrier against further German penetration to the channel coast.

Two or three days ago it was known that the Belgian positions had been very heavily assailed and that the Belgian right flank had been broken. A British division, which could ill be spared, was promptly despatched to the assistance of the Belgians at the point of greatest danger. It is understood that the Belgian capitulation was made without any prior warning or consultation whatever with the French and British commands. The result is that the left flank of the British and French positions has been left completely exposed. When it is realized that this opens the way for a German advance towards Dunkirk across western Belgium, and also that Dunkirk is the principal port of supply for the British Expeditionary Force, the gravity of the present situation becomes obvious. Calais has already fallen into the enemy’s hands, and German units have been reported to be moving on Dunkirk from that direction also. Meanwhile, the British Expeditionary Force is maintaining a most courageous resistance against steadily increasing odds. Its strength is largely intact, and its fighting spirit unbroken. We can be confident that it will carry out to the last whatever task is assigned to it.

The Prime Minister of France, in his broadcast to the French nation yesterday, made it clear that France will continue the struggle with undiminished resolution. Strong French defensive positions have been established along the line of the Somme and the Aisne, and German attempts to extend their penetration across the Somme and in the south-east sector near Sedan havebeen successfully held. It is not the wish of the Government to enter into any recriminations regarding the decision of King Leopold. The Belgian forces had for days been exposed to overwhelming mechanized and air attacks, and, without a full knowledge of the facts of their military position, it is impossible to form a judgment on the decision of their command er-inrchief. It must be obvious to honorable senators that the seriousness of the position in which the French and British: Forces in northern France and Flanders now find themselves cannot be exaggerated.

page 1415

PETROLEUM OIL SEARCH BILL 1940

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the 23rd May (vide page 1154), on motion by Senator FOLL -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Senator COLLINGS:
Leader of the Opposition · Queensland

– Although this measure may have farreaching effects, it is, in itself, simple. I am sure that, as was the case in the House of Representatives, no serious opposition will be presented to it in this chamber. The object of clause 2 is to substitute the word “ plants “, for the word “plant” in section 5 of the principal act. As the Minister for the Interior (Senator Foll) pointed out in his second-reading speech that section has been interpreted to mean that whilst the Government can purchase a whole plant, it cannot purchase parts of a plant, or parts for a plant. The object of clause 2 is to remove any doubt in that respect.

Under this measure the Government also seeks power to contribute towards the cost of any geological survey or scoutdrilling operations conducted by it in conjunction with a State, and also to make advances to persons engaged in the initial stages of the production of petroleum. I need hardly say that the Opposition realizes that the discovery of petroleum oil in Australia is of vital importance to this country. At no time in our history has that fact been more generally recognized than the present. In spite of all the investigations which have been undertaken at considerable expense, no results of commercial value have yet been obtained. I suggest that the Government should immediately undertake more extensive work in order not only to discover flow oil in commercial quantities, but also to explore every channel whereby we can make ourselves selfsufficient in respect of power supplies. This matter, of course, has been repeatedly debated in this chamber. The Government has taken certain action to develop extraction: of oil from coal and shale. I do not know whether the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research has conducted any investigation into the possibility of extracting oil from vegetable matter. Considerable progress has been made in north Queensland in producing power alcohol from sugar waste, and an appreciable quantity of that fuel is now being used in industry in this country. I support the measure.

Senator ARTHUR:
Ne\v South “Wales

– Sub-clause 2 of clause 2 seeks to make the provisions of sub-section 1 of the same clause retrospective to the date on which the Petroleum Oil Search Act (No. 2) 1936, came into operation.

Senator Foll:

– The object of that provision is to legalize advances that have already been made for scout-drilling operations in association with the Victorian Government.

Senator ARTHUR:

– That is the Minister’s explanation; but this clause if agreed to will also give to the Minister power to refund to certain persons moneys which they may claim they have expended in the purchase of drilling plant since 1936.

Senator Foll:

– Those plants were bought by the Government, and all of them have been paid for.

Senator ARTHUR:

– Advances have been made from the Petroleum Oil Search Trust Fund to certain companies for the purchase of drilling plant. I contendthat the provisions of this measure should not be applied retrospectively, but that they should operate as from the date on which this measure becomes law . I am considerably handicapped indiscussing the bill, because I have not yet received an answer to a question of which I gave notice last Friday morning. To-day, I was told that the answer had not yet come to hand. My question was -

Will the Minister representing the Treasurer supply the Senate with the names of the person or persons, or company or companies, who have been granted permission to raise capital by public subscription for the search for oil, or for scout boring in Victoria, stating the respective amounts and the dates on which permission was granted?

Senator McBride:

– Surely the honorable senator does not suggest that the answer to his question has any bearing on the search for oil.

SenatorARTHUR. - I believe that it has. At any rate, I resent the fact that although I put my question on the noticepaper last Friday, the Minister flippantly tells me to-day that the answer has not yet come to hand. Now, one of his colleagues suggests that the answer to that question has no bearing on the search for flow oil. Such an attitude is typical of that adopted by Ministers in the Senate in dealing with questions asked by honorable senators on this side. We are entitled to receive the information we seek at the earliest possible moment. I am at a disadvantage in discussing this measure in the absence of the information which I sought last Friday. For the reason I have already given, I voice my opposition to the bill.

SenatorFRASER (Western Australia) [3.31]. - As I understand that the object of the retrospective provision of the measure is to legalize advances already made by the Government in connexion with drilling operations, I can see noreason why the bill should not be passed.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Petroleum oil search trust account).

Senator ALL AN MacDONALD:
Western Australia

– I would like an assurance from the Minister for the Interior (Senator Foll) with regard to grants which will be made by the Government under this clause. Can the Minister assure honorable senators that this very wide clause will not permit of claims being made by every Tom, Dick and Harry who has endeavoured to enlarge upon the search for oil since 1936? We have heard quite a lot about “ doodlebug” merchants, and I would .like to be convinced that the additional clause will not give scope for claims from unstable organizations which have had a mushroomlike growth.

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · Queensland · UAP

– I cannot give an assurance that claims will not be received. Claims are received daily and are considered by expert geologists of the Department of the Interior, who make a thorough investigation of any request for assistance.

Senator Allan MacDonald:

– Has the department power to reject spurious claims?

Senator FOLL:

– Yes. This bill does not provide that claims must be granted. It merely provides authority for the Government to grant assistance in approved cases.

Senator E B Johnston:

– What about refunds ?

Senator FOLL:

– The question of refunds does not arise. As I said in my second-reading speech, the purpose of this bill is to make legal certain advances made by the Treasury in connexion with scout drilling undertaken in Gippsland in conjunction with the Victorian Government on a £1 for £1 basis. The bill also provides that in cases where companies arc fortunate enough to find indications of oil, the department may, if it considers it advisable, grant some assistance to those companies in order that they may explore further the prospects of getting oil in commercial quantities. Such payments could not be made under the present legislation.

Senator ARTHUR (New South Wales) “3.53]. - What I arn concerned about in connexion with this clause is, first, the position of the trust account. Is there any money now in the account for use in the directions indicated by this clause, or does the Government intend to put more money into it? In the Sydney Morning Herald of the 20th January last there appeared a statement by the Minister for the Interior (Senator Foll) to the effect that the Government did not intend to provide any. further assistance to companies -engaged in scout drilling operations. The Minister also said that the

Oil Advisory Committee had recommended that that body- be abolished because results had been disappointing. In the same newspaper eleven days later, there appeared a contradictory, statement to’ the effect that the ..Government intended to continue assistance to scout drilling operations and the search for flow oil. It was also stated that £50,000 remained in the trust account, for that purpose. To my knowledge, , money was given to the Freney Company operating in the Kimberleys in Western Australia, to the Apanaipi Company operating in Papua, and to another concern operating in Victoria. Speaking from memory, I think the amounts were £17,000, £12,000 and £1,200 respectively. I submit that if money is to be expended on scout drilling operations and on geological surveys, the Government should certainly not be guided by those gentlemen who style themselves geological experts - those dismal failures who have conducted the oil search in tin’s country!

Senator McBride:

– One of them has left.

Senator ARTHUR:

– One has left, but the last has not been heard of him, and others remain. On a site selected by- the socalled experts, at Kulnura, near Gosford, New South Wales, £17,000” was paid to a company engaged in the search for oil and registered in New South Wales, bringing its total expenditure’- to more than £50,000. Boring was carried down to the 4,000-f t. level, so that the : cost was more »than £12 a < foot With’- evidence like that before us we cannot doubt that the Minister was -absolutely’’ correct when bo said that- the’ Oil’ Advisory- Committe(:s operations had been disappointing. Until we know exactly^ what money is available and what method’ of financing is to bc adopted, it is difficult’ for us to accept the Minister’s word’ ‘that scout drilling operations and geological surveys are to be helped in the’ future. The methods of the geologists in Australia are quite out of date just as they were in America, where out -of 118 blind stabs made, one bore produced oil. The application of the science of geophysics to the search for oil eighteen years ago, resulted in the production of oil from one bore in every five.’ To-day, the ratio is even better. It is regrettable that there is no chair of geophysics in any Australian university. In fact, the only chair of geophysics in the world is at Denver, in America, and that was established, only a few months ago.

Senator Gibson:

– Has not a geophysicist made seven stabs in Victoria without locating any oil?

Senator ARTHUR:

– I am not prepared to make any comment in regard to that position at present, because it is dangerous for any one engaged in the search for oil to claim success unless he has the imprimatur of the Commonwealth Governmentand the major oil companies. If he has not that approval, he is likely to be hit on the head with a crowbar as Mr. Pollock was in Mr. Menzies’ own electorate in Victoria, or brutally assaulted as Mr. Beattie was at the top of William-street in Sydney, because he had found petroleum oil.

Senator Herbert Hays:

– Where?

Senator ARTHUR:

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Minister having taken objection to the statement made by Senator Arthur I ask the honorable senator to withdraw it.

Senator ARTHUR:

– I withdraw it. Mr. Chairman, but I would say thai the statements made by the Minister concerning the activities of the Government in connexion with the search for oil in Australia are not believed by me or by thousands of people throughout Australia. All competent authorities and all worth-while text-books are agreed that geological surveys are not of any value in the search for oil; so it i.« mere waste of the taxpayers’ money to carry out scout boring on the advice of geological experts. Many wild-cat schemes have been launched on this unreliable advice, particularly at Mulgoa and at Kulnura, near Gosford, in New South Wales, and also at a number of places in Victoria. In that State 36 bores have been put down to a depth of from 900 feet to 1,500 feet on advice of geologists, and the work has been discontinued. Such a state of affairsshould not be allowed to continue, i agreethatgeologists can furnish valuable; information, with respect to mineral deposits,butitis quite unlikely that they are in a position to offer a reliable opinion as to the presence of oil. For this reason, I consider that further expenditureonscout boring in conjunction with State governments, acting on the advice of geological experts, is simply throwing moneyaway.

Clause agreedto.

Title- agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. .

Bill readathirdtime.

page 1420

ASSENT TO BILLS

Assent to the following bills reported : -

Seatof Government . (Administration Bill) 1940.

Land Tax Assessment Bill 1940.

Land TaxBill1940.

Income TaxBill 1 940.

IncomeTax Assessment Bill 1940.

page 1420

SUGAR AGREEMENT BILL 1940

Bill returned from the House of Representatives without amendment.

page 1420

POSTANDTELEGRAPH RATES BILL 1940

BillreceivedfromtheHouse of Representatives.

StandingandSessionalOrders sus- pended.

Bill(onmotionbySenatorMcBride) readafirsttime.

Second Reading

Senator McBRIDE:
South AustraliaAssistant Minister for Commerce · UAP

. -I move-

That the bill be now read a second time.

This billprovides for a number of alterations inconnexion with the telegraph rates operating throughout Australia. Another . measure provides for special concessions to members of the Commonwealth Defence Forces. This bill will reduce the. number of words in the normal . telegram from sixteen to fourteen, and the, new rates will provide that an ordinary; telegram of fourteen words may be transmitted from any post office to any point within a radius of fifteen miles for 9d. irrespective of whether it is transmitted across a State border or not. Beyond a radius of fifteen miles the charge for an ordinary telegram will be fourteen words for1s. throughout theCommonwealth. This will abolish the interstate telegraph rates, and eliminatetheheavy charges now imposed on what are generally referred to as border telegrams. In practice it will enable residents on border towns to transmit an ordinary telegram of fourteen words for fifteen miles for 9d., or sixteen words for11d., compared with the present charge of sixteen words or1s. 4d. It also abolishes the imposition of double rates for telegrams lodged for transmission on Sundays, Christmas Days and Good Fridays, and telegrams sent after the prescribed hours. In view of the important development of broad- casting, provision is made to grant press rates for the transmission of news telegrams to broadcasting stations throughout Australia. The concessions granted by eliminating interstate and border rates, the abolition of double rates on holidays and after hours, and the application of press rates to broadcasting telegrams, will amount to between £20,000 and £35,000.

The advantage gained by reducing the normal telegram from sixteen to fourteen words will increase the revenue by an estimated amount of about £52,000, and after allowing for further concessions to the Defence Forces the net result will be a financial gain to the Postal Department of approximately £25,000. This, of course, is taking into account the probability of an increase of the volume of telegraphic traffic between the States, particularly between border towns where the maximum concession will operate.

The bill will remove several of the anomalies which have remained with the post office since the inauguration of federation. Whilst we accepted the principle of uniform postal rates throughout the Commonwealth, we have refrained from applying the same system to telegrams. Telegrams relating to the movement of shipping sent by the Commonwealth Navigation and Lighthouse Services for the purpose of being posted up at telegraph offices will be transmitted at press rates. Whilst these amendments will bring about uniformity in regard to. the telegraph rates throughout Australia, they will also introduce economies in the internal administration, particularly in the Accounts Branch of the department, and at the same time have a tendency to allow a greater number of telegrams to be transmitted in any given time. By the elimination of Hie double rates after hours, it will bring the telegraph system more closely in line with the telephone system under which concession rates are granted for afterhour traffic, when the trunk lines are less congested. These new provisions will have a tendency to distribute the load on our telegraph system over a longer period during each 24 hours, and will unable the department to take greater advantage of the operating organization during the slack periods.

The new telegraph rates will represent flu average charge of .Sid. per word for ordinary telegrams through Australia. The average rate for ordinary telegrams throughout the United Kingdom is .’83d.; in New Zealand l.lld. and from 1.05d. to 4.05d. under the zone system in the United States of America. From these figures it will be seen that the new average telegraph rate throughout Australia will be even lower than the rate operating in Great Britain.

Debate (on motion by Senator Collings) adjourned.

page 1421

FINANCIAL STATEMENT 1940-41

Debate resumed from the. 23rd May (vide page 1175), on motion by Senator MCBRIDE -

That the paper bc printed.

Senator DEIN .(New South Wales) 1 4.1 6]. - During recent weeks, much public attention has been directed to the necessity for the formation of a national government. The Leader of the Opposition (Senator Collings) dealt with this matter at some length a few days ago, and said that he himself was tempted to support the proposal. Precisely what he meant by those words I am at a loss to know. The proposal must be either good or bad. If it is good, the word “ tempt “ should not apply. If he considered the suggestion a bad one, he could then say that he was tempted to support it.

Senator DEIN:

– I have not heard one logical argument advanced that would suggest that the proposal is not a good one. A most important meeting of the Loan Council was held this week. Ministers representing different shades of political opinion throughout Australia met in this chamber to discuss certain matters prior to reaching decisions of great importance to the nation. When this body assembles, it forgets party differences, and the interests of. the country alone are considered. I do not believe that the party to which I belong has a monopoly of the good qualities, and that the Opposition has all of the bad ones. No doubt, some good is to be found on both sides and, therefore, I think that, in the interests of Australia, a government representative of all political parties should be formed.

If ever there has been need for unity in Australia, it is now. The enemy guns are thundering at the gates of London. Britain has its back to the wall, and is fighting for its life. If Britain goes down, we shall go down, losing our liberty, our standards of living, of which we ‘are proud and which we hope to raise, our independence, our industrial and social legislation, and everything else that we hold dear. Australia, therefore, is left with one problem only at the moment, and that is the winning of the war. If we lose, all of our problems will be solved for us without our assistance, without our advice, and certainly not in a way that will be to our liking. So the question that confronts us is: Can this problem of winning the war be better solved by unity, or is it more likely to be successfully solved by disunity? The Labour party thinks that it can render better service by remaining a virile Opposition than by joining a national government. At Cabinet meetings, information is disclosed that is denied to the Parliament generally, and, if members of the Labour party have constructive suggestions to make, or administrative ability, they have an opportunity in Cabinet to show what they can do. But the Labour party says to the present

Government, “ You make the decisions and we snail say in Parliament whether they are good or had “. I contend that the proper place for leading members of the Labour party who have constructive ideas is the Cabinet room, where they could participate in the discussions, and where effect could be given to the views’ they propounded.

Senator Cameron:

– Ought not Parliament to decide all matters of government policy ?

Senator DEIN:

– The inference which must obviously be drawn from that statement is grossly untrue. I ask you, Mr. Deputy President, whether I have any protection against a malicious liar such as he is?

Senator Ashley:

– I ask that that statement be withdrawn.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator James McLachlan). - If thehonorable senator takes objection to Senator Ashley’s remark, I shall ask him to withdraw it-

Senator DEIN:

– In making that statement Senator Ashley is a malicious liar.

Senator Ashley:

– I ask Senator Dein to withdraw that statement.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT.- If Senator Dein takes objection to Senator Ashley’s remark I shall ask him to withdraw it.

Senator DEIN:

– His statement is grossly untrue.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT. - Does the honorable senator wish Senator Ashley to withdraw his remark?

Senator DEIN:

– It is very difficult to ask a malicious liar to withdraw anything.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT.Order ! I ask Senator Dein whether ho wishes Senator Ashley to withdraw his remark.

Senator DEIN:

– That is the most difficult question I have ever been asked. Out of deference to the Chair, and not in any way because of the malicious lie,I ask that the remark be withdrawn.

Senator Ashley:

– I withdraw my remark.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT.-I now ask Senator Dein to withdraw his remark that Senator Ashley is a malicious liar.

Senator DEIN:

– I do not know that that is possible. To me he is a malicious liar.

Senator DEIN:

– He is Leader of the Labour party in the State Parliament. The Australian Labour party executive is the controlling body in New South Wales, and Senator Collings knows that. He himself went to New South Wales a few years ago and endeavoured to whiten the hearts of the Labour people there. He failed miserably, however, and returned to his own State. I was amused to hear the two Labour parties in this chamber endeavouring to tag the Communist party on to each other. It was a spectacle made even more amusing by the attempts of honorable senators opposite to tag the Communist party on to the United Australia party. My party has never supported the Communist party, we do not want their support, and we have told them so. At the 1934 elections I was one of thirteen candidates for the Senate, and the Labour party put me thirteenth on their “ how to vote “ cards. On that occasion apparently Labour leaders had no hesitation in putting Communists before the United Australia party, and in return, apparently by a reciprocal arrangement, the Communists gave their preferences to Labour candidates. In spite of that, honorable senators opposite, time after time, make miserably futile attempts to tag the Communists on to the United Australia party. Nobody wants the Communists because they are disrupters ; the Opposition does not want them any more than we do, but unfortunately the Labour party has not sufficient courage to tell the Communists that it does not want them. The United Australia party has at least had the temerity to tell the Communists what it thinks of thom, and when the next election comes round, even though Senator Collings may be bold enough to say what he thinks of the Communists, many of his colleagues will not be game to follow his example. That has been the case in the past and it will be the case in the future. No doubt when Senator Ashley faces the electors he will not say very much about the Communists, although some of his erstwhile colleagues in New South Wales will have a good deal to say about them. [ shall be interested as this debate proceeds to listen once more to honorable senators opposite speaking with their tongues in their cheeks, and attempting to dissociate themselves from Communists who are their friends and supporters.

Senator ASHLEY:
New South Wales

– Unfortunately, during your absence from the chamber, Mr. President, an incident occurred for which I wish to express my regret. The incident was provoked by the speech made by Senator

Dein who, although he was supposed to be debating the financial statement, never once mentioned it. The whole of his address was a vilification of the Labour party, with particular reference to myself. The honorable senator made strenuous endeavours to connect me with the Communist party. I assure him that he was mistaken in his interpretation of an interjection which I made. It will be recalled that at the beginning of to-day’s Bitting Senator Dein asked a question with regard to the activities of the Communist party and its association with the Labour party.

Senator DEIN:

– My question was in regard to a Communist.

Senator ASHLEY:

– I thereupon asked a question in regard to a selected United Australia party candidate for the next Senate elections, Captain Patrick, who had entertained Count von Luckner, the German spy, at his own home. When Senator Dein was speaking, I interjected to tho effect that I would prefer to be associated with a Communist rather than with a German sympathizer. The honorable senator inferred that I was referring to his parentage, but I assure him that I had no such intention. There was no thought of Senator Dein’s parents in my mind at all, and if honorable senator? were misled by my interjection, I apologize. I am not concerned with the manner in which Senator Dein may receive the apology, because if he uses outside this chamber the language which he used this afternoon I shall be quite capable of dealing with him.

– No, because under the relief system they get only one or two weeks work in every month. In fairness to the New South Wales Government I should say that that disability has now been removed.

– If that be so, it. seems strange that bis appointment to so important a post should have been announced over the air and in the press. It. will be interesting to follow this matter to. its conclusion. The press criticism of the Government for its failure to expeditethe manufacture of armaments and munitions is fully justified. Over £2,000,000 has been spent on the erection of annexes, but only one of. the 25 annexes which have been completed, seven of which are situated in New South Wales, has yet commenced operations. The chaotic position which has been disclosed by the press has stirred the people of Australia, Business men, manufacturers, soldiers and every other section of the community are alarmed at the present state of affairs, and heartily commend the pre«s of New South Wales for the service it has rendered to this country in disclosing the facts. Up. to date, members of the Opposition have purposely refrained from exposing weaknesses in bur defence preparations. We have been silent in that respect, although, had we chosen to do so, we could have levelled very severe criticism against the Government. About four years ago the Government decided to manufacture Bren machine guns in Australia. The report of the Munitions Supply Board for the year ended the 30th June, 1937, states -

A developmental programme, which is being considered, includes production of the new Uren light machine gun, which will involve the erection of a three-storey steel and concrete building, to bc an extension of the existing Vickers machine gun workshops. The plans have been completed, and on approval of the scheme an early commencement can be arranged.

It was also reported that the manager of the Small Arms Factory, Mr. A. S. Ford, who had been in England since August, 1.936, in connexion with proposals for manufacturing the new light Bren machine gun in Australia, resumed duty in October, 1937.

Tn its report for the succeeding twelve months the board stated- -

The erection of the three -storey building for the production of the Bren light machine pun, to which reference was made in the last “report, has reached an advanced stage. The estimated cost of this extension to the existing machine gun workshops is £03,500. The development programme also includes the provision of a modern toolroom, and a commencement with t], is project has been made by removal of the Press machine section from the galvanized iron structure erected during the war and demolition of the building;

Honorable senators will recall the visit we paid a couple of years ago to this building, when machinery was being installed in it. We now learn that in the meantime that machinery has been transferred to another building, despite thefact that the original building was specially designed as a factory for the manufacture of the Bren machine gun. [Extension of time granted.’] One doesnot wonder that the press of New South Wales condemns the Government for its ineptitude. I can only conclude that those responsible for the direction of this work have fallen down on their job. Remembering these facts, I was not surprised to hear the Prime Minister (Mr..

Menzies) remark in the course of his speech in the Sydney Town Hall last night that, at one period, the people of this country were not taking the war seriously, but now fully realize the peril which is confronting the Empire and Australia. In my second-reading speech on the Supply and Development Bill I pointed out that we had in existence at that time the Munitions Supply Board, which had control of the manufacture of armaments and munitions under the Government’s expanded scheme. I also emphasized the dangers which would arise from the Government’s proposal to appoint additional authorities to control this work. I said that in such circumstances it was inevitable that difficulties resulting from duplication of control would arise, and would cause serious delays. However, the Government did not heed my warning. I find that the present personnel of the Munitions Supply Board does not include one practical man. The members of this body are: Mr. A. E. Leigh ton, who is a mining chemist; Messrs. J. K. Jonsen and W. Howie, who are accountants; and Mr. A. V. Smith, who is assistant secretary, Department of Defence. In view of the fact that not one of these officers is a practical man, is it any wonder that the government scheme is not meeting with success? The services of practical men must be engaged to direct this work. Adequate supplies of arms and munitions are most essential, because without them our soldiers will he ineffective, no matter how nobly they may respond to their country’s call.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS : PRECEDENCE

Motion (by Senator McLeay) - by leave- agreed to -

That until the 31st May, 1940, unless otherwise ordered, Government business shall take precedence of all other business on the noticepaper excepting questions and formal motions.

page 1436

POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL 1940

Second Reading

Debate resumed from page 1421 (on motion by Senator MoBride) -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Senator COLLINGS:
QueenslandLeader of the Opposition

– I have had an opportunity to examine the hill since the Minister delivered his secondreading speech this afternoon, and as its purpose is to remedy certain anomalies in the act and generally to improve it, the Opposition is prepared to facilitate its passage. When the bill is in committee it is our intention to direct attention to a number of matters which we hope will have favorable consideration.

Senator GIBSON:
Victoria

.- The Assistant Minister (Senator McBride) and the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Collings) have told us that this measure is designed to remedy certain anomalies existing in the present Post and Telegraph Rates Act. It will really perpetuate one of the greatest anomalies. The telegraph system in Australia is an extraordinarily well managed business. During my term as Postmaster-General, many years ago, the department showed a loss of £250,000 a year. My successor Senator A. J. McLachlan, was able to convert that loss into a profit of £250,000 a year. I would point out also, that during the time that I was administering the department meteorological telegrams to a value of £75,000 were despatched free of charge. Credit for that service was not given to the telegraph branch. This bill does not go far enough. The Post and Telegraph Rates Act should be repealed. I doubt that any one can say why the anomalies contained in the act are allowed to continue. We have an excellent telephone system which, after meeting Interest and sinking fund charges shows a profit of £1,500,000 a year. That result is achieved by good management.

Senator Allan MacDonald:

– And high charges.

Senator GIBSON:

– I do not agree. One hears very few complaints about telephone rates in Australia. If a telephone rates bill were introduced the Minister would not get it through this Parliament in twelve months. When I took over the administration of the department in 1923, the telephone branch of the department was controlled under regulations which provided for charges according to the actual mileage of wire. That meant that if a subscriber sent a message to another subscriber ten miles distant, and if in the absence of a direct line the actual distance of wires was 100 miles, the charge was made according to that distance, instead of for a ten mile radius. Because there was no specific provision in the act relating to that aspect of the department’s business, I was enabled to inaugurate the radial system with the result that the charges for a telephone conversation were fixed according to the actual distance between subscribers. Thus, if a person spoke from a northern suburb of Melbourne to another subscriber in the southern portion of the city, the charge would be l1/4d. The system of telegram changes is different; although a person may despatch a telegram to another person ten miles distant, there is the fee of11/4d. for the telephone message, and 9d. for the telegram, although the whole of the transaction may be carried out by telephone. There are few telegraph transmitting offices in our capital cities or, for that matter, in many provincial centres throughout Australia. The majority of telegraph messages arc transmitted by telephone, but there is the anomaly that, whilst a telephone conversation between two points in a metropolitan area may be only l1/4d., the telegraph rate for the same area is101/4d. although, as I have shown, . the whole of the business may be done by telephone. The message at both sending and receiving endsis under regulations, but in the middle - the telegraph office - it is under act of Parliament. The Post and Telegraph Rates Act should be repealed. I made an attempt to do so, but was unsuccessful because the act contains provision for the transmission ‘ of press telegrams at the rate of 50 words for 2s., which of course, is much below the actual cost involved. This is a valuable concession to the newspapers. Naturally, when newspaper proprietors learned that I was contemplating a repeal of the act, they got busy and I had to drop the bill. That is one reason why I was unable to abolish the anomaly of inter-State charges for telegrams between border towns such as Albury and Wodonga. More than half of the telegraph messages in Australia are transmitted over the telephone system, and therefore are not telegrams in the true sense of the word. There are similar anomalies in postal rates, which, in certain respects are controlled under agreements made at international conventions from time to time. The convention fixes minimum rates to be charged, but there is no provision, so far as I am aware, fixing the rates for mails carried by air. The Auditor-General has directedattention to these anomalies from time to time. I said that, if anybody challenged them, the matter would not he accepted for transport by air. The Government should have asked the Parliament to repeal the act relating to post and telegraph rates, and to conduct the service on the same lies as the telephone service.

Senator E B JOHNSTON:
Western Australia

– This measure provides for a uniform telegraph rate throughout Australia of1s. for a telegram of fourteen words. In the States 1s. 2d. will be charged for a message of sixteen words instead of1s., as to-day; but, taking a broad view of the matter I think that the measure will prove of great advantage, and I congratulate the Government upon its introduction. It seems remarkable that the telegraph branch will gain about £52,000 a year through the reduction of the shilling telegram within a State from sixteen to fourteen words. In addition, concessions are to be given on after-hours, holidays, and border telegrams. I am pleased that a concession in respect of border messages is to be made. I have always regarded it as an anomaly that, in sending a telegram a few miles across a border from one State to another, the interstate rate of1s. 4d. has applied. These concession will cost the Government from £20,000 to £35,000 a year. Putting the cost at £25,000, the department will still show a profit of £27,000 a year from the operation of this measure. The public will gain, because the benefits outlined in the bill will much outweigh the one disadvantage of allowing only fourteen words, instead of sixteen in respect of intranstate telegrams.

I was interested in Senator Gibson’s remarks. I recall the excellent work done by him in the interests of country communities, when he was PostmasterGeneral, particularly in the direction of giving Australia substantially reduced telephone rates. At the same time, I regret that this bill does not go a good deal further. It provides for a universal telegraph rate throughout Australia, but, as Senator Gibson told us most telegrams are sent over the telephone system in the country areas. His remarks, coupled with the public demand, make out an unanswerable case for much lower telephone rates. It is wrong to charge a person who lives 200 miles from a capital city a much higher rate for telephone calls to the city than a person who lives only 100 miles away. It is now proposed to enable the public, at a flat rate of1s., to send telegrams from Perth to Thursday Island, or from Wyndham to Melbourne. A zone system should apply to trunk telephone calls.

Senator Lamp:

– Why not apply the same principle to the railways?

Senator E B JOHNSTON:

– That is another matter. This Parliament does not control the railways. During the period when I was in the Western Australian Parliament, I always advocated, and to some degree the government of Western Australia has adopted, a zone system with regard to railway rates.

War conditions, of course, make it difficult for the Government to give further concessions to the public, but in view of the. profit of £1,500,000 made by the Telephone Department last year, as soon as times become normal, I hope that the telephone rates will be substantially reduced somewhat on the lines now proposed in regard to the telegraph charges. Cheaper rates for long distance calls are particularly desirable. As an ex-Postmaster-General has told us that a great many telegrams are sent over the telephone system, the present action of the Government with regard to telegraph charges should be followed by much reduced telephone charges, particularly in connexion with country services and the provision of further facilities in country districts.

Senator CUNNINGHAM:
Western Australia

– Some interesting admissions have been made in this debate. An ex-Postmaster-General has informed us that the telephone branch is showing the huge profit of £1,500,000 per annum. I understand that not all the money required for new services is taken out of revenue. Some of the money used for this purpose is taken from loan funds, and the people are called upon to pay additional taxes to meet the interest charges and to provide additional revenue in order to recoup the Government. The profits of the Post Office, including the £250,000 a year which is made in the tele-: graphs branch, are paid in to the Treasury. The people are being indirectly taxed. As the Post Office is showing an enormous profit, one would expect that the public would receive in return a reduction of charges. I know that the bill under consideration provides for certain reductions, hence the popularity of the measure; but the people should be made aware of the fact that the Post Office is a huge and growing machine that imposes indirect taxes on them. When a favorable opportunity presents itself, the whole of the Postal Department should be reviewed. A great deal of postal revenue is obtained from business undertakings which post huge numbers of circulars for advertising purposes, and the expenditure thus incurred by them is added to the cost of commodities, and so is borne by the community. Therefore, the Parliament must eventually give serious consideration to the growth of this octopus-like department.

Senator A. J. MCLACHLAN (South

Australia) [8.41]. - Senator Cunningham has said that the profits of the Post Office will have to be considered, and that the whole system must be- reviewed. The profits of the Post Office may seem large, and, to some honorable senators, extraordinarily large, but owing to the advance of scientific research, and the important work that the Post Office is doing, with its huge assets aggregating in value between £40,000,000 and £50,000,000, we should give pause before we lightly embark upon any reduction of the charges made by this department. Something might occur overnight, as it did a short time ago, that would render millions of pounds’ worth of wires and technical equipment almost valueless. When Marconi invented wireless telegraphy, one could see what Was likely to happen. It is prudent for any government, which has a sense of financial responsibility, to see that provision is made, out of the earnings of the various branches of the Post Office, for the installation, from time to time, of necessary improvements. Senator Cunningham is right in saying that the profits of the Post Office have to be paid into revenue. This is done in accordance with section 81 of the Constitution ; but much of the revenue goes back to the department. It is largely a matter of bookkeeping. During the last year in which I was PostmasterGeneral, £1,500,000 was returned to the department out of its profits. I rose to sound a note of warning. We need to have a deep sense of responsibility in this matter. If prudence of the kind practised in connexion with the Post Office had been adopted with regard to the railway systems of Australia, the sum of £300,000,000 which the taxpayers are carrying on their shoulders to-day on account of the railways would have been greatly reduced, and much of the expenditure that has been incurred would have been obviated. The provision for the transmission of news telegrams to broadcasting stations at the rate now prescribed for press telegrams will be of benefit to the whole community. The rapid transmission of news is of great importance, particularly at the present juncture, and the concession proposed to be afforded should assist in that direction. I commend the Government for removing certain anomalies, but there are many others which also should be removed.

Senator COURTICE:
Queensland

– This measure, which is to confer concessions upon those who use certain services provided by the Postal

Department, appears to be very popular ; but improved facilities, particularly in the country areas, are more essential than a reduction of existing rates.

Senator A J McLACHLAN:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– Hear, hear !

SenatorCOURTICE.- Senator A. J. McLachlan, who is an ex-Postmaster General, said that the department must not proceed too rapidly with the granting of concessions because of the possibility of improved devices being introduced which would render obsolete those now in use and necessitate heavy additional expenditure. ‘ I trust that that is not the angle from which the Government proposes to ‘ view the activities of this department. Improved telephone facilities are of tremendous importance, particularly in Australia, many parts of which are still awaiting development, in consequence of the absence of means of transport and communication. It would be much better to improve the facilities in country districts than to grant further concessions to those living in the more closely populated areas. For some years the Postal Department has shown a huge surplus, and, although a portion of its profits are used to provide replacements, some of the excess revenue should be used to extend existing services and to provide telephone equipment in remote parts of the country. If that were done development would increase and a greater number would be induced to remain on the land, thus encouraging decentralization. Apparently, the Government is not considering that aspect of the matter to the degree that it should, and representatives of the Country party in this chamber, who have welcomed the proposed reductions, should advocate increased facilities which they know are necessary. In various parts of Queensland and also in other States the people are unable to use the telephone service owing to the absence of the necesary facilities or because the rates charged are excessive. Surely the department should not decline to install a telephone service because it would be unprofitable. If railways were not constructed until they could be conducted at a profit there would be very little development in country areas. I trust that infuture the Government will give more consideration to the necessityto increase existing facilities than to a reduction of rates.

Senator FRASER:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– As the capital employed to install postal, telegraph and telephonic facilities has to be provided by the people, many of whom are unable to derive much benefit from the services provided, the Postal Department is really a taxing machine. At present the Postal Department refuses to erect public telephones on sites provided by the local governing authorities unless it is guaranteed against loss. In Western Australia numerous representations have been made for the provision of public telephones; but in every instance the department has asked to be indemnified against loss. I trust that in future the amount of the guarantee now sought will be reduced, so that those living in remote areas will have the benefits now enjoyed by persons in more closely populated centres. Senator A. J. McLachlan advised caution in respect of concessions affecting postal revenue, because of the possibility of new developments in the means of communication ; but such a contingency should be considered when it arises. Should additional expenditure be necessary, it will be provided by the community. If the national broadcasting service were under the control of private enterprise, the cost to the public would be much greater than at present. In view of the fact that the profits now made by the department are paid into Consolidated Revenue, greater consideration should be shown to those who have not the means to install telephones, by providing public telephones at a more reasonable cost.

Senator LAMP:
Tasmania

.- I congratulate the Government upon having introduced this measure, which provides certain concessions that will benefit the people. For many years the Postal Department has been criticized because of the profits it has made; but I am always willing to applaud any government instrumentality which is rendering a service to the public. It has always been the policy of the Australian Labour party to advocate public ownership of such utilities as the Postal Department, and as it is anticipated that additional revenue will be obtained under reduced rates, the department is being conducted very efficiently, and at a cost much lower than would be the case if it were controlled by private enterprise. I agree with Senator Courtice that some of the profits should be used to improve existing services, particularly by means of wireless telephony to the outback areas. A portion should also be expended on improving the existing telegraphic and telephonic systems in the remote parts of the Commonwealth. There is no reason why a privileged section of the community should be able to transmit telegrams at still lower rates, whilst other sections do not receive any benefit at all.

Senator COOPER:
Queensland

– I congratulate the Postal Department upon the excellent work it has done for a number of years, but it is unfair for an honorable senator opposite to say that members of the Country party had supported the bill because a reduction of rates is proposed, and had not shown any sympathy towards those living in country districts. A. member of the Country party who represents one of the largest electorates in Australia had not been its representative long before lie became known as telephone ‘”’ Jimmy “ because of his success in getting th( Postal Department to provide increased telephone facilities in many parts of his electorate. It has always been the pleasant duty of members of the Country party to urge the provision of improved telegraphic and telephonic facilities in the rural areas. Many telephone services provided in country districts are not likely to pay operating costs for many years.

Senator Courtice:

– Have not city people sufficient facilities?

Senator COOPER:

– I do not think any section of the community has sufficient telephone facilities. I am interested particularly in the requirements of the country areas. Senator Courtice was not justified in saying that Country party members welcomed this bill because it provides for a reduction of rates and disregarded entirely the claims of residents in rural districts. I resent that statement. If honorable senators opposite endeavoured as much as Country party members to secure these facilities, they would have .less ground for complaint.

Senator Courtice:

– The average >far* mer cannot afford to - pay- for -the installation of a telephone..’. .

Senator COOPER:

– I do not know whether the honorable senator has made representations to the Deputy PostmasterGeneral in Queensland, but 1 assure him that that officer would give him a sympathetic hearing.

Senator HERBERT Hays:

– The department cannot differentiate as between the States.

Senator COOPER:

– I do not suggest that it does; but a sympathetic Deputy Postmaster-General can be of great assistance in this matter. I welcome the reduction of telegram rates. Whilst this concession will benefit city people most, it will also be of great assistance to residents in the country, many of whom arc using the telegraph office increasingly. It is estimated that the concessions given in this ‘bill will be worth about £30,000, or a sum of £5,000 in respect of each State. I doubt whether with that amount telephonic services could be extended to many country areas. I strongly support Senator Courtice’s request that greater facilities should be provided in remote districts. The ‘Country party has always fought for such facilities and will continue to do so, so long as it has a representative in this Parliament. At the same time, however, it would be unfair to deny to the department credit for the excellent work it is doing. Our telephonic services are improving year by year, and the rates are gradually being reduced. I commend the Government for having introduced this measure.

Senator HERBERT HAYS:
Tasmania

– I join with other honorable senators in urging the Government to provide greater and cheaper telephonic facilities in country areas. Country tele; phone users par capita make a very substantial contribution towards the department’s annual profit. They must, first, guarantee part of the cost of construction of new lines. Then they are at a great disadvantage compared with city telephone users in that they are obliged in many places to pay an opening fee if they wish to make a call after 6 p.m. Sometimes an individual subscriber has to pay two opening fees in respect of the one call. It is evident from past experience that the department is amply compensated by an increase of revenue for expenditure incurred in the extension of telephonic services. Not so many years ago the telephone was generally regarded as a luxury. To-day it is an essential amenity in outback areas. Newcomers to a district usually endeavour to settle in a spot which is convenient to thelocal school, but their next consideration is whether a telephonic service is available, because they always bear in mind the importance of a telephone in case of emergency. When illness suddenly occurs in the home, their first thought is to secure medical assistance. To-day, however, as a result of rapid motor transport, the tendency is for medical practitioners to converge towards populous centres where they can build up sound practices within comparatively small areas. Consequently, the necessity for telephonic services in remote districts is increasing.

With the regard to the reduction of telegram rates, I urge that some concession be made in respect of the address. If the telegram is being sent to a small country town the address takes very few words, but when the addressee resides in a city, or a town, the address required is considerably longer. The name of the addressee usually accounts for three words, the number and street for three more words, the name of the town makes a seventh word. With a limit of fourteen words for messages at the minimum rate, this means that half of the wording is taken up in addressing the telegram. I suggest that it might be possible to count the address as five words, even when it exceeds that number.

Senator DEIN:
New South Wales

– I support the measure because, first, it removes certain anomalies, and, secondly, it reduces telegraphic and telephonic rates. In spite of these reductions, however, I am of opinion that telephonic charges are far too high. The annual ground rent of £4 10s. is excessive. I have no complaint to make with respect to the charge of l1/4d. a call; but the ground rent is a stumbling block to many people who would like to install the telephone, which is one of the greatest con veniences science has given to us. If this charge were reduced many more people could afford to become subscribers. The rent is out of all- proportion to the charge of a11/4d. a call. Rather than encourage installations in this way, however, the department seems to prefer to provide public telephones at street corners, and to charge 2d. a call for the use of them. Many people who now use public telephones a few times a week would be induced to install a telephone if the ground rent were considerably reduced.

Senator Courtice:

– The ground rent is much higher in the country than in the city.

Senator DEIN:

– That is so; and, perhaps, the country subscriber is entitled to a greater measure of relief than the city subscriber, because we should offer facilities of this kind in order to encourage settlement in more remote areas. In 1933, when I was a member of the House of Representatives, I urged that the annual ground rent which was then £5 10s., should be reduced, even if such a concession necessitated an increase of the rate for each call. That matter was taken up by the department, and subsequently a sliding scale of charges, under which the rate was reduced for calls in excess of a certain number was introduced. Later, this concession rate was adopted as the flat rate; but the ground rent remained at £4 10s. If the department were sufficiently courageous to reduce the ground rent thousands of middle-class people would become subscribers, and the department’s revenue would be increased considerably.

Senator ARTHUR:
New South Wales

– I suggest to the Government that some of the additional revenue which will be raised by this bill could be expended in improving the telegraph line between Wyalong, Marsden and Forbes. Recently I travelled along the road between those towns, and the state of the telegraph line was a disgrace. In some cases the poles were leaning at an angle of 45 degrees, and were propped up by rotten dead trees. I cannot understand how the people of these districts are able to send telegrams at all.

Another matter with which I shall deal is the telegraph service at military camps. Recently the father and mother of a hoy who was in camp at Ingleburn, and was about to depart overseas with the Australian Imperial. Force, communicated with me and asked me to send a telegram to the boy stating that they were coming to Sydney to see him before he left. The parents travelled a long way to Sydney in order to see their son for the last time before he left Australia, but the telegram did not reach the boy. I received a reply from the postal authorities saying that it was regretted that the addressee was unknown, and that the address was insufficient as the regimental number had not been given. That state of affairs is a disgrace to the nation. The boy to whom I sent the telegram was in camp all the time. I suggest that some of the revenue to be derived under this measure should be so expended that telegrams sent to soldiers will be sure of delivery.

Senator McBride:

– The bill which will be introduced after this one, deals with postal concessions to soldiers.

Senator ARTHUR:

– I am dealing now withthe expenditure of the money which will be raised as a result of this measure. I urge that the telegraph service at military camps be improved so that boys who are about to leave Australia for service abroad will be sure of receiving telegrams, and that “ brass hats “ will not be able to claim that an address is insufficient. It might be possible to establish a card index system in the military camps so that soldiers may he speedily located, whatever the unit they are serving with.

Senator ALLAN MacDONALD:
Western Australia

– There is not the slightest danger of reduction of these telegram rates affecting the extension by the Postal Department of postal facilities to country subscribers. I welcome this bill; it has taken quite a long while to come before the Senate - years in fact - but I commend the Government for it. I am particularly pleased that the anomaly in connexion with border telegrams has been eliminated. The Postal Department does not as a rule relinquish revenue readily, and I am of the opinion that the reductions of these telegraph rates i.? really a sprat to catch a mackerel, because the1s. telegram will bepopularand the department will make a greater profit still. It is not a magnanimous gesture on the part of the Postal Department, because I do not think that it will lose any revenue by what it is doing.

Much is said about the profits of the Postal Department, but they are usually grossly exaggerated. The largest client of the Postal Department is the Commonwealth Government itself, and the next largest clients are the State Governments. To believe that the carriage of mail matter or the transmission of telegraph or telephone messages between Government institutions is a profit-making business, is only to delude oneself. Actually there is no profit in inter-governmental business, and the Postmaster-General would be well advised if Government revenues were not included in the Postal Department’s financial statement. Their inclusion only invites claims from the commercial community or the press for reduced charges all over Australia. It is time that the Postmaster-General took stock of his own department, and gave to the public of Australia a true statement of the actual profit which the post office makes in this country.

Senator McBRIDE:
South AustraliaAssistant Minister for Commerce · UAP

. - in reply - I appreciate the very generous support which has been given by honorable senators to this bill, but I was rather surprised at the qualifications which they attach to that support. I think that you, Mr. President, have been extremely generous in the latitude which you have allowed in the debate on a measure which actually deals only with telegraph rates and has no reference whatever to telephones. Honorable senators are labouring under a misapprehension if they believe that the Postal Department shows a huge profit and that, therefore, all kinds of reductions of telegraph rates should be made. For the information of honorable senators, I point out that during the ten years from 1923-24 to 1933-34 the telegraphs branch lost aproximately £2,500,000. From the year 1934-35 until the present, it has made a profit of approximately £250,000, leaving a net loss of £2,250,000 since 1923-24.

Senator Arthur:

– During the depression years.

Senator McBRIDE:

– The period from 1923-24 to 1928-29 can hardly be regarded as depression years. In fact, in that period occurred the greatest boom in the history of Australia; yet the Postal Department lost more than £1,000,000. As I pointed out in my second-reading speech, telegraph rates in Australia are lower than they are in Great Britain and New Zealand, and are very much lower than they are in the United States of America. I do not think that sufficient credit is given to the postal administration which has built up one of the most efficient services of its kind in the world.

Senator Herbert Hays complained about the number of words taken up in each telegram by the address, and made certain suggestions in order that that expense might be reduced. I point out, however, that under an international convention, it is compulsory that all words used in an address be charged for as separate words. The Postal Department is therefore unable to alter the existing system without infringing the international agreement.

Telephone services were mentioned in a way which implied that the Government was very remiss in dealing with this important part of the postal service. For instance, Senator Courtice urged a greater drive in the extension of telephone facilities. The Government agrees that every possible service should be given to people in country areas, but it is entirely wrong to say that the department is slowing down, or lying down, on its job in this connexion. During the year 1938-39, which was a record one so far as the installation of handset telephones is concerned, 68,036 installations were effected. I mention this fact, so that honorable senators may not be under a misapprehension with regard to the. activities of the Postal Department.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 (The schedule).

Senator LAMP:
Tasmania

.- I strongly urge that more privacy be observed in the sending of telegrams. Telegrams lodged at country or suburban offices are sent by telephone to central offices for transmission.When these telegrams are being telephoned, anybody who happens to be in the sending office can hear the contents. Recently a very important private telegram came to me, and a girl who happened to be in the office at the time came to my home and told my wife what was in the telegram before it was actually delivered. There should be a box from which the postmaster or postmistress could telephone telegrams without their contents being made known to every body in the office. Another undesirable feature of the lack of privacy in sending telegrams is in connexion with post offices run by local business people. A serious complaint was made to me not long ago from a mining town. It appears that the mining company called for tenders for the supply of a large number of batteries. The local postmaster was also a business man, and when his opponents telegraphed their quotations he was able to undercut them. Another matter that should receive attention is the sending of telegrams during hours when post offices are closed. In many country towns in Tasmania the local post office is closed from 12 noon to 2 p.m. or from 1. p.m. to 2 p.m., and in the absence of any facility for sending telegrams, much inconvenience is sometimes caused. It should be possible, during hours when the local post office is closed, for persons wishing to send telegrams to transmit them by telephone to a central receiving office. I hope that the Minister will give consideration to the several matters which I have mentioned.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 1443

POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES (DEFENCE FORCES) BILL 1940

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and Sessional Orders suspended.

Bill (on motion by Senator McBride) read a first time.

Secondreading.

Senator McBRIDE:
South AustraliaAssistant Minister for Commerce · UAP

– I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

The bill is designed to grant a reduction of rates on telegrams for transmission to or from members of the forces within the Commonwealth. The new rates for an ordinary telegram will be fourteen words for 6d. and each additional two words1d. Urgent telegrams will be accepted at fourteen words for ls. and each additional word1d. There will be no extra charge for telegrams lodged after hours, on Sundays, Christmas Days or Good Fridays, and the rates mentioned will apply throughout the Commonwealth, horder rates and interstate rates being abolished under the bill just passed. Further concessions are granted in the schedule sotting out the charges for mails and parcels to and from members of the forces. These concessions apply overseas as well as within the Commonwealth. Letters and letter-cards, postcards, printed matter, merchandise, books, periodicals and newspapers will be carried at half rates, or double the weight for the existing rate. For instance, letters and letter-cards will be carried at 1 oz. for1d. instead of 1. oz. for 2d. Postcards will be reduced from 11/2d. each to 1d., and books and newspapers will be carried at 12 oz. for1d. instead of the old rate of 6 oz. for1d. The new rates for parcels to or from members of the Defence Forces will commence at 1 lb. for Gd. and rise on a graduated scale to 11 lb. for ls. 9d., whereas the present rate is 11 lb. for 3s.

Senator COLLINGS:
QueenslandLeader of the Opposition

– I am sure that all honorable senators will support the bill, its purpose being to grant concessions to Australians who are serving in defence of this country. It is only right that they should have every consideration at the hands of this Parliament.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 (Rates for telegrams).

Senator E E JOHNSTON:
Western Australia

– Can the Minister inform me what will be the rates for the transmission of telegrams to members of our fighting services when they are outside the Commonwealth?

Senator McBride:

– The bill applies only to rates within Australia.

Senator E B JOHNSTON:

– That being so, the clause might go a little further. No one wants to he unreasonable. We appreciate the action of the Government in bringing down this bill, but I think that it would be helpful and in accordance with the spirit of the times if the Government could see its way clear to make a reduction of the charges for telegrams to and from members of the fighting services in Palestine or in any other theatre of war to which they may be sent.

Senator McBRIDE:
Assistant Minister for Commerce · South Australia · UAP

– Every telegram sent overseas becomes a cable. Any alteration of the charge would necessitate an arrangement between the Commonwealth Government and the cable companies. However,I shall give consideration to the suggestion of the honorable senator.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 (The schedule).

Senator FRASER:
Western Australia

– I am surprised that no provision is made in the schedule for a reduction of charges in respect of letters sent by air to or from members of our forces overseas. We have just been informed that there is to be no reduction of the rate for cablegrams, but I think the Government might make some concession in respect of air mail letters. The existing rate is ls. 6d. a half oz.

Senator McBRIDE:
Assistant Minister for Commerce · South Australia · UAP

– The suggestion made by the honorable senator will be considered. I would, however, point out that at the present time all planes are heavily laden with mail matter, and. if any reduction of the air mail letter rate were made for the defence forces, additional space would have to be provided in planes.

Senator FRASER:
Western Australia

– A concession in respect of air mail would be much appreciated by the mothers, fathers and friends of the men. in our fighting services. Perhaps it would be possible to limit the weight of letters to be carried at a concession rate.

Senator McBride:

– The present minimum weight is one-half oz. I doubt that it would be possible to make a further reduction.

Senator Cooper:

– Is there any provision for air mail concession rates to members of the defence forces in various camps throughout Australia?

Senator McBride:

– No.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time,

page 1445

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act - Eighteenth General Report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works.

Commonwealth Public Service Act - Appointments -

Department of External Affairs - R. L. Harry, L. R. McIntyre, L. M. Murchison, and J. P. Quinn.

Supply and Development Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1940, Nos. 88, 89.

Superannuation Act - Seventeenth Annual Report of the Superannuation Board for 1938-39.

Senate adjourned at 9.45.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 29 May 1940, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1940/19400529_senate_15_163/>.

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Senate29 May 1940

QUESTION

FLAX INDUSTRY

Senator LAMP:TASMANIA

Senator FOLL:Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · UAP

Senator McLEAY:Minister for Trade and Customs · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

PORT AUGUSTA WHARF

QUESTION

NO-CONSCRIPTION LEAGUE

Senator DEIN:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator McLEAY:UAP

QUESTION

TIMBER FOR PUBLIC WORKS

Senator CUNNINGHAM:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FOLL:UAP

QUESTION

SELECTION OF SENATE CANDIDATE

Senator ASHLEY:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator McLEAY:UAP

MAKINE SURVEY IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator McBRIDE:Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

QUESTION

NAVAL VICTUALLING OPERATIONS

Senator FOLL:UAP

QUESTION

CHARCOAL GAS-PRODUCERS

Senator CUNNINGHAM:

Senator FOLL:UAP

QUESTION

MILITARY HOSPITAL IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FRASER:WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Senator FOLL:UAP

DEFENCE CONTRACTS

Western Australian Tenderers

Senator CUNNINGHAM:

Senator FOLL:UAP

QUESTION

WOOL SUBSTITUTES

Senator CLOTHIER:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator McBRIDE:UAP

QUESTION

APPLE AND PEAR ACQUISITION SCHEME

Senator AYLETT:TASMANIA

Senator McBRIDE:UAP

QUESTION

OIL SEARCH COMPANIES

Senator ARTHUR:NEW SOUTH WALES

QUESTION

INSCRIBED STOCK

Senator DARCEY:TASMANIA

Senator McBRIDE:UAP

EMPIRE AIR TRAINING SCHEME

Ministerial Statement

Senator FOLL:Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

WAR IN EUROPE

Capitulation of Belgium - Ministerial Statement

Senator COLLETT:Minister in charge of War Service Homes · Western Australia · UAP

PETROLEUM OIL SEARCH BILL 1940

Second Reading

Senator COLLINGS:Leader of the Opposition · Queensland

Senator ARTHUR:Ne\v South “Wales

Senator Foll:

Senator ARTHUR:

Senator Foll:

Senator ARTHUR:

Senator McBride:

Senator ALL AN MacDONALD:Western Australia

Senator FOLL:Minister for the Interior · Queensland · UAP

Senator Allan MacDonald:

Senator FOLL:

Senator E B Johnston:

Senator FOLL:

Senator McBride:

Senator ARTHUR:

Senator Gibson:

Senator ARTHUR:

Senator Herbert Hays:

Senator ARTHUR:

Senator ARTHUR:

Senator Herbert Hays:

Senate
29 May 1940

Senator LAMP:
TASMANIA

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · UAP

Senator McLEAY:
Minister for Trade and Customs · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

Senator DEIN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator McLEAY:
UAP

Senator CUNNINGHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FOLL:
UAP

Senator ASHLEY:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator McLEAY:
UAP

Senator McBRIDE:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

Senator FOLL:
UAP

Senator FOLL:
UAP

Senator FRASER:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Senator FOLL:
UAP

Senator FOLL:
UAP

Senator CLOTHIER:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator McBRIDE:
UAP

Senator AYLETT:
TASMANIA

Senator McBRIDE:
UAP

Senator ARTHUR:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator DARCEY:
TASMANIA

Senator McBRIDE:
UAP

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator COLLETT:
Minister in charge of War Service Homes · Western Australia · UAP

Senator COLLINGS:
Leader of the Opposition · Queensland

Senator ARTHUR:
Ne\v South “Wales

Senator ALL AN MacDONALD:
Western Australia

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · Queensland · UAP

Senator FOLL:
Minister for the Interior · QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator ARTHUR:
New South Wales

Senator MCBRIDE:
UAP

Senator McBRIDE:
South AustraliaAssistant Minister for Commerce · UAP

Senator CAMERON:
CP

Senator ASHLEY:
New South Wales