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Senate
6 October 1927

10^th Parliament · 1^st Session

PAPERS
QUESTION
- FEDERAL CAPITAL
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH LINE OF STEAMERS
QUESTION
- WAR SERVICE HOMES
QUESTION
- DRIED FRUITS INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- HIGH COMMISSIONER’S LONDON RESIDENCE
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH OIL REFINERIES
QUESTION
- BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS
QUESTION
- BOUNTIES
QUESTION
- FEDERAL AID ROADS
SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) 1927-28
APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1927-28
- Second Reading
COMMONWEALTH ELECTORAL BILL
PRIVILEGE
ADJOURNMENT

The President (Senator the Hon. Sir John Newlands) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 265

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Railways Act - Report on Commonwealth railways operations for the year ended 30th June, 1927.

Ordered to be printed.

Canberra - Sale of business sites. Particulars of upset prices and prices realized at auction.

Canberra - Particulars of building, sites, rentals, number and cost of residences, &c.

Canberra - Land sales - Operations of estate agents and others.

Public Service Act - Appointments, Department of Health- H. V. Golding and C. H. Kilian.

page 265

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Sale of Leases: Commission Paid to Agents - Shareholders in Local Investment and Trading Concerns - Residences - Pastoral and Farming Leases - Swimming Baths -Fly Screen Doors.

With reference to a promise given by the then Minister for Home and Territories (Senator Sir William Glasgow) on the 24th March last, in reply to a question relating to the sale of business sites in Canberra, that he would discuss the matter with the Federal Capital Commission, will the Minister concerned inform the Senate of the result of such discussion ?

What were the number and upset prices of business sites offered for sale by the Federal Capital Commission at its last sale?

What number was sold, andat what prices ?

How is the great excess over the upset prices accounted for?

In view of the result, what modifications of the Federal Capital Commission’s policy is proposed ?

I am now in a position to advise the honorable senator as follows: -

The matter was discussed with the Chief Commissioner, Federal Capital Commission;, but it was not considered that there shouldbe any alteration in the method of assessing the upset prices of business blocks. The upset prices, put on the allotments in the 1928 sales were arrived at by expert valuators, after consideration of the results of the 1924 sales and other factors which affect laud values. At the last auction sale in April, 1927, the upset prices were exceeded in practically all cases. The results of the April sale indicate that the number of blocks then offered amply met the existing demand, no private requirements being shut out as far as could be ascertained by the Commission.

Twenty blocks offered - Civic Centre, Section 1 -

Motor Service Station, Eastlake -

Upset, £2,000.

Minor Industrial Sites, Ainslie. -

Section 28, Block 2.- Upset, £1,500.

Section 28, Block 3. - Upset, £1,500.

Section 28, Block 4. - Upset, £1,500.

Section 28, Block 5.- Upset, £1,500.

Boarding House Sites -

Section 18, Block 1.- Upset, £1,000.

Section 19, Block 1. - Upset, £1,000.

Section 57, Block 1.- Upset, £1,000.

Twenty blocks sold - Civic Centre, Section1

Motor Service Station, Eastlake -

Sold at £11,300.

Minor Industrial Sites, Ainslie -

Section 28, Block 2.- Sold at £2,200.

Section 28, Block 3.- Sold at £2,000.

Section 28, Block 4.- Sold at £1 , 800.

Section 28, Block 5.- Sold at £1,900.

Boarding House Sites -

Section 18, Block l.-Sold at £1,100.

Section 19, Block 1.- Sold at f 1,100.

Section 57, Block 1.- Sold at £1,100.

The excess over the upset prices at the April sale can only be attributed to the keenness of the competition for the particular blocks offered.
See answer to No. 1.

Yesterday Senator DUNCAN asked the following questions: -

Is it a fact that practically all sites in Canberra, whether residential or business sites, have been disposed of through one firm or company of agents?

If so, what is the amount of commission which has been paid, and/or which is now due and owing by the commission to such agents?

What is the reason for granting such agents a monopoly in this respect?

Is it a fact that a member or members of such firm of estate agents is or are also a director or directors and/or large shareholders in certain buildingsand/or investment companies which have purchased or dealt very largely in lands acquired from the commission through such agents?

Is it a fact that a number of public servants and/or servants of the Federal Capital Commission are also large shareholders in one or more of such concerns?

How many blocks in the “ Civic “ Centre were submitted for sale at the last Bale of business sites?

How many of such blocks were purchased by any, and which of the aforesaid concerns in which public servants or servants of the commission are interested?

Is one of such concerns carrying on a motor garage firm or company ?

Is it a fact that a rival motor garage, the site for which was purchased at a very large price, has been notified by the commission that it will not bc permitted to carry out repair work?

If so, will this prohibition have the effect of giving a monopoly of such repair work to the concern referred to in Question No. 8?

The following particulars have now been received from the Federal Capital Commission : -

. The agents for the first sale were a Sydney firm of auctioneers acting in conjunction with a firm established at Canberra. Subsequent sales have been carried out by the Canberra firm.

The fact that it is the only firm of auctioneers established at Canberra and that two members of the firm are returned soldiers.
Yes, but the blocks were obtained as u result of public auction.
Several members of the commission’s staff and other public servants arc shareholders, hut their total holdings represent only £0,550 out of a nominal capital of £100,000.
Two blocks by the Canberra Building and Investment Company Limited.
No.
The site which is apparently referred to is that for a motor service station. The conditions ofsale- which were read out at the sale - provided that no repairs other than running adjustments could be undertaken, and that the lessee could not be permitted to garage cars at the station.
No.

Yesterday Senator GRANT asked the following questions: -

How many building sites have been leased within the Capital area?

What is the total annual rental received for these?

How many residences have been erected by the commission?

What is the total cost of the residences erected ?

How many of these are occupied?

How many are in course of erection?

What is the total rental as fixed by the commission for the completed residences unoccupied ?

How many of these have been allotted?

What is the rental as fixed by the commission for the residences allotted and unoccupied ?

How many residences have been erected by private enterprise?

What is the total - (a) number, (b) area, (c) rental, of the (a) pastoral,(b) farming, (c) other areas leased by the commission ?

What is the area of - (a) the Capital site, (b) Federal Capital Territory not leased ?

The following information has now been received from the Federal Capital Commission : -

£13,549.

£555,112.

£10,813 per annum.

£3,291 per annum.

Pastoral and farming and other areas leased by the commission -

Number 360 447 city blocks,

Area 186,000 acres £13,549

Rental £39,900 12. (a) 50,960 acres; (b) 339,040 acres exclusive of unlcased lands within city area.

Yesterday Senator Needham asked the following questions: -

Will the Prime Minister now take into consideration the request contained in my letter to him, dated 6th April last, that swimming baths be erected at Canberra?

In view of the fact that summer is rapidly approaching, will the Minister, if he favorably considers the matter, see that the work is put in hand immediately, in order that the baths may be completed this year?

I desire now to state that this matter has been taken up with the Federal Capital Commission, which has advised my colleague, the Minister for Home and Territories, as follow: -

That it is quite in sympathy with the proposal, which it already had in mind as a future work.

That the provision of swimming baths has had to be deferred in view of the necessity for the design and construction of many other urgent works. The commission regrets that it will not be able to complete the baths in time for the summer months, but will put the work in hand as soon as possible.

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Federal Capital Commission will only place fly-wire screens on certain windows of houses rented by public servants?
If so, will he issue instructions that flywire screens be placed on all windows and chimneys when desired?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow : -

With the object of reducing the capital cost of each of the dwelling houses to the lowest possible figure, and reducing maintenance costs and rental, the commission decided that fly-wire screens should not be fitted to bedrooms of dwelling houses.
Instructions will be issued for the provision of fly-wire screens to bedroom windows and chimneys, in specified instances, where, after experience of the summer months in Canberra, a public servant decides that it is necessary that he should have these screens fitted.

page 257

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH LINE OF STEAMERS

Statement Made by High Commissioner.

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to a statement made by the High Commissioner for Australia (Sir Granville Ryrie), which appeared in the press recently, in which he advocated the sale of the Commonwealth line of vessels?
Is it the policy of the Government to allow officers holding such positions to make statements regarding matters thataffect the policy of the Government, and which also vitally affect the people of Australia?
Will the Prime Minister cable the High Commissioner instructing him to refrain from making such statements in future?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW.The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follows: -

The Prime Minister has seen newspaper reports of certain utterances by the present High Commissioner (Sir Granville Ryrie).
The High Commissioner occupies an office in which he knows no political party, but represents the whole of the Australian people.
The Prime Minister has communicated with Sir Granville Ryrie to ascertain whether reports which have appeared in the Australian press are correct.

page 257

QUESTION

WAR SERVICE HOMES

Senator ANDREW:
through Senator Foll

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

Has the Minister’s attention been drawn to serious statements regarding faulty workmanship in the construction of war service homes made at a conference of War Service Homes delegates appointed by the Victorian branches of the Returned Soldiers’ League, which was held in Melbourne on 29th September?
If the statements are correct, will the Government cause inquiries to be made with a view of obtaining compensation from the builders of these houses?
Will steps be taken to prevent any more such faulty buildings being erected for the War Service Homes Commission?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow: -

Yes.
Inquiries will be made into the statements, the result of which will determine what action the War Service Homes Commission will take in the matter.
Every endeavour is and will be made to supply soundly constructed homes; but in many cases it is being found that repairs required later on are attributed to faulty construction, whereas they come within the category of maintenance items, and as such are the responsibility of the applicants.

page 258

QUESTION

DRIED FRUITS INDUSTRY

Murray River Vineyards - Damage by Frosts.

Senator ANDREW:
through Senator Foll

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Markets and Migration, upon notice -

Has the Empire Marketing Board of Australia taken up the report of the damage done by frost to the river Murray grape crop, and sent an urgent message to its expert at Montpellier, in France, asking him to come to London to advise on the matter?
Has it been reported that the French vignerons have a method of treating vines affected by early frosts whereby they are able to produce a later crop?
Will the Minister ask the board to ascertain if the scheme would apply to tomato vines, as thousands of tomato plants have been killed by the frost in Australia during the last few weeks?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow: -

The Development and Migration Commission and the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research advise that the State viticultuval experts have a close knowledge of methods of fighting frosts and of the treatment of vines injured by frosts, and have from time to time issued statements and recommendations in regard thereto. In order to possibly supplement this information and to ascertain whether any development of very recent date had occurred in Europe, the Development and Migration Commission recently cabled Mr. F. L. McDougall, their correspondent at Australia House, through the High Commissioner, asking him to forward the fullest particulars of any recent developments in knowledge of this subject. A reply has been received that the Empire Marketing Board, London, on which Mr. McDougall is the Australian representative, has immediately despatched an expert to Montpellier, in France, and that the expert’s report will be furnished at the earliest possible moment. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research has also cabled to a special investigator in California, with a view to obtaining the latest information on the subject in that country. Meanwhile, the Development and Migration Commission are consulting with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and the State authorities to obtain the most authoritative and agreed statement on the matter, which it is proposed to embody in the report upon the dried fruit industry now in course of preparation. Past experience indicates that a later crop of less quantity but high quality is often obtained after damage by frosts, if conditions are favorable and proper treatment of the vines is carried out.
Yes.
After consultation with the proper State authorities the Government will consider this request.

page 258

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER’S LONDON RESIDENCE

Senator FINDLEY:

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Has the Government purchased the lease of a house in the West End of London for the High Commissioner ?
If so, on whose representations was the lease entered into, what was the price paid for same, what period does it cover, and what rental is to be paid for the building?
Has the High Commissioner’s salary been increased; if so, to what amount; and were any representations made by the present occupant of the position for increased salary?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow: -

Yes.
The Government considered that, to fittingly maintain the dignity and status of the Commonwealth in London, it was most desirable that an official residence for the High Commissioner should be obtained in London in a suitable locality. The price paid for a 21 years’ lease of the property is £6,000, exclusive of certain fixtures, &c., estimated at not more than £150.
The High Commissioner’s salary has not been increased.

page 258

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH OIL REFINERIES

Banking Business

Senator NEEDHAM:

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is ita fact that the Commonwealth Oil Refining Company formerly transacted its business through the Commonwealth Bank, and has now withdrawn same?
If so, why?
Will the Government urge that the company in future transact all its business through the Commonwealth Bank, instead of through a private bank?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow: - 1 and 2. No. The Commonwealth Oil Refinery transacts its business with the Commonwealth Bank, and has done so for a considerable time.

See answer to 1 and 2.

page 259

QUESTION

BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS

Senator NEEDHAM:

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

Will the Minister furnish the Senate with a statement showing the different boards, commissions, tribunals, &c, brought into existence by the Commonwealth Government, and which were in operation during the year 1026-27, together with the annual cost of each board, &c. ?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The information is being obtained.

page 259

QUESTION

BOUNTIES

Senator NEEDHAM:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Will the Minister give the amounts of bounty paid by the Commonwealth to each industry in the Commonwealth for the year 1926-27 ?

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

– The answer to the honorable senator’s question is as follows : -

page 259

QUESTION

FEDERAL AID ROADS

Allocation of Commonwealth Grant

Senator J D MILLEN:
TASMANIA

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

What amount has been contributed By the Federal Government to the Tasmanian State Government for road development, construction, or maintenance?
What amounts have been granted to each of the other States for the same purposes?
Of these various sums, what amounts have been taken from the sums raised through petrol and other motor taxes?
What amounts were obtained from (a) petrol and (6) motor taxes since the 1st August, 1926.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The information is being obtained and will be supplied as soon as possible.

page 259

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) 1927-28

In committee (Consideration resumed from 5th October, vide page 207).

Clauses 2 to 4 agreed to.

Schedule.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– In discussing the proposed vote of £11,720, for the Parliament, I desire to direct the attention of honorable senators to the unsatisfactory nature of the answers I received to-day io certain questions submitted to the Minister representing the Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce) in this Chamber. Health is paramount to wealth, and, irrespective of opinions which may be expressed to the contrary, I contend that we cannot have a healthy and happy community unless we do all that is humanly possible to suppress the blow-fly pest which is - an absolute menace to the people of Australia. It has been said by the most eminent authorities that flies are more deadly that snakes. They come into existence in filth. I am astounded to find that in order to cheapen the houses erected in the Federal Capital city, which ought to set an example to all cities throughout Australia, the Federal Capital Commission is providing only the kitchen and. dining-rooms of the houses with flyproof door and window screens. Are the flies to be trained in such a way that they will seek to enter only the rooms which are so protected? Flies enter at every possible point of access. Expense is a secondary consideration when compared with health and comfort, and in my own home I have provided every door, window, chimney, and ventilator with fly-proof screens in an endeavour to prevent the spread of disease. I have not resided in Canberra long, but those who have been here for some time have told me that at certain periods of the year blow-flies are a severe menace. It m’ay be that now that a good deal of ploughing has been don,: there will he fewer opportunities for this pest to thrive. The cost of supplying flyproof wire is infinitesimal. Personally I like Canberra, and have always spoken favorably of it. I want the people who are to permanently reside here to be happy and comfortable, and to assist in doing this such a necessary convenience should be provided. The Government should issue instructions to the commission to provide this necessary protection to all buildings erected or in course of erection. The cost will be a mere bagatelle. If what I suggest is not done I shall appeal to the health authorities, and I feel sure that my appeal will not be in vain. In the interests of the health of the people in the Federal Capital Territory, steps should be taken immediately to provide fly-proof screens for the doors and windows of all dwelling-houses. Some people may be indifferent to the menace of mosquitoes and flies. I am not. I believe in health laws and hygienic conditions generally for the people. I declare war on all pests. I speak strongly on this subject because I feel strongly about it, and I hope it will not be necessary to raise my voice again in respect to this important matter.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

[3.27]. - I remind the honorable senator senator should discuss this matter under the division dealing with the Department of Health. At present there is no ordinance in the Federal Capital Territory and no law in any State of the Commonwealth making it compulsory for persons to affix fly-proof gauze to the windows or doors of dwellings. In my reply to the honorable senator this afternoon, I stated that instructions would be issued for the provision of fly-wire screens to bedrooms and chimneys where after experience of the summer months in Canberra, a public servant decided that it was necessary to have such screens fitted.

Senator Findley:

– That is altogether too ambiguous.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– It is a question for the public servant himself to decide.

Senator Findley:

– Fly-proof doors and windows should be provided for all dwellings irrespective of whether the occupiers ask for them or not.

Senator OGDEN:
Tasmania

– I wish to direct attention to an anomaly with regard to the classification of certain officers by the Public Service Board. It is the custom of the board to place officers in the smaller States in a lower classification with a lower salary than in the larger States, notwithstanding that they and officers filling them may be carrying out the same duties. I refer particularly to heads of departments and citeas an illustration the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs in Hobart and the Sub-Collector of Customs in the same city. Their classification and salary are lower than the classification and salary of officers performing the same duties in Western Australia, and the latter, so I understand, are classified lower than similar officers in Victoria. I see no good reason for this differentiation because the responsibility resting upon officers in the smaller States, is just as great, and it is possible that their duties are more onerous. This grievance has been felt by heads of departments in the smaller States for a long time and I should like to see it removed.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland - Minister for Defence) [3.27]. - I remind the honorable senator that the Public Service Board, before making a classification of offices, conducts careful enquiries, and therefore, must have full knowledge of the value to be placed upon the various positions in * the Public Service. Parliament deliberately placed the Public Service under the control of the board in order to deal fairly with all officers in the Service.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I desire to direct the attention of the Minister of Defence (Senator Glasgow) to a matter of vital importance to a number of miners recently working in the Protheroe lead mine, Northampton, Western Australia. I have received the following letter from Mr. L. J. Triat, the organizer of the Australian Workers’ Union at Meekatharra : -

The mine was loaned a sum of money by the Commonwealth Bank and the bank closed on the assets of the company with the result that the employees did not receive the wages due to them as the company had not cash enough to meet wages due, or at least we are given to understand such was the case. We findthat the property, being freehold, we cannot come under the Mining Act which entitles wages to come first and as no attempt is made to pay these wages which are due since May, our only hope is to have the matter placed in the hands of our Federal members. The total amount of wages due to the men employed, is £943 2s. 9d. wages, and £97 10s. salaries,’ making a total of £1S40 12s. 9d. We are in hopes that, if the facts are placed before the Federal members, they will see how unjust it is to take from the men the bread and butter that this money represents. I will be pleased to forward the time sheets, giving details of pay, should you desire same.

On receipt of this letter I immediately got in touch with the Federal Treasurer, and after a considerable volume of correspondence had passed between me and the Cornwealth Bank, I received certain replies, one of which was from Senator Pearce and read as follows -

I desire to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 27th September, enclosing communication received by you from Mr. Triat, Organizer of the Australian Workers Union, Meekatharra, Western Australia, in regard to matters connected with the Protheroe Lead “Mine, Northampton. Enquiries are being made of the Commonwealth Bank, and a further communication will be addressed to you.

The matter was referred to the Treasury and the Treasurer replied, stating, inter alia -

The security held by the bank will not be sufficient to pay its debt; the bank has instituted criminal proceedings against the manager of the Fremantle Trading Company Limited, and that case is sub judice - it is therefore not desirable to make further com ment upon it. For your information I am enclosing copy of the correspondence which YO. forwarded to me in connexion with this case.

The manager of the Fremantle Trading Company Limited was convicted of the offence with which he was charged. Subsequently I again communicated with the Treasurer, repeating the contention that the men should be paid the wages which were legitimately due to them. 1 then held, and I still hold, the view that the Commonwealth Bank should make payment; because, when the judge delivered his judgment in the charge against the manager of the Fremantle Trading Company Limited, he said that the Commonwealth Bank would not lose the £20,000 that it had loaned to the company. Despite that intimation, Dr. Page replied on the 15th of December, 1926, as follows: -

With reference to your further representations concerning the position of the miners at the Protheroe Lead Mine, Northampton, I have now been advised by the Deputy Governor of the Commonwealth Bank that the statement that the bank had sintered no financial loss in its business with the Fremantle Trading Company Limited, is erroneous. The bank will suffer a loss to the extent of soma thousands of pounds. The Deputy Governor adds that in the circumstances the bank will have no funds out of which the wages of miners could be paid.

Senator Reid:

– Is the honorable sentor aware that we on this side cannot hear a word of what he is saving ?

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator ELLIOTT:

Senator ANDREW:
Victoria

– If we permit an extraordinary boom in land values in this city, allowing land to be sold at 300 or 400 per cent, higher than the upset price, the extra charge will have to be borne by the general public. As a State Government auctioneer I have sold Crown lands in Victoria for many years past. The system in that State is to fix the upset price and give ^ applicants a chance to buy privately at a price 10 per cent, in excess of the upset price. That method does away with speculation and prevents booming of land values. I suggest that in Canberra a certain number of blocks should be allotted in certain positions for particular trade areas, and sold one at a time. Where there are several people competing for certain blocks, they should be given the option of acquiring them at the upset price. There need be no fear of the Commonwealth sustaining a loss. No one knows better than the officers of the commission the value of the land in the Territory, and it is they who fix the upset price. For my part I think it is wise to stop the land boom in Canberra as soon as possible.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– A little while ago I brought under the notice of the Minister for Defence the case of Trainee Foley, who lost pay through going on parade on the occasion of the visit of the Duke and Duchess of York to Perth. On that occasion an order was sent out for the cadets to parade, and it was so worded that it was construed as a call to a compulsory parade. When, however, the cadets claimed pay for the time they had Jost from their employment, the military authorities in Perth said that it was not a compulsory parade, and refused their claim. The matter was taken up by the United Furniture Trades Industrial Union of Perth, and the Defence Department was sued for a breach of the United Furniture Trades Award. The award covering this industry shows that an apprentice shall receive pay for all time lost through attending compulsory military training except training imposed through failure to attend compulsory parade. An officer of the Defence Force who went into the witness box said -

At the time that order was written, it was fully anticipated that we would have a public holiday, and generally, when we call a voluntary parade for a public holiday, we get few attendants. It was incumbent on us at the time to get sufficient men to form a guard of honour, and the order was worded, as near as possible, in such a way as to make it a compulsory parade, without calling it a compulsory parade….. A man who absents himself from a compulsory parade is liable to prosecution.

I brought the matter before the Minister in connection with Trainee Foley, and the Minister agreed to pay the difference between his military pay and the wages he had lost. But there are other trainees similarly situated. I- ask the Minister now, seeing that he has made payment to one trainee who attended that parade, to extend the same consideration to others who are similarly situated.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland - Minister for Defence) [3.59]. - I remember this case which Senator Needham submitted to me. The order for the parade was worded in such a way that it might be construed as a call for a compulsory parade. I saw at once that the officer responsible for it had made a mistake, as the result of which this trainee had suffered. If others were similarly situated they will certainly be treated as was the trainee whose case was brought under my notice.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I understand that about two years ago the Public Accounts Committee recommended that something should bc done by the Commonwealth Government to help to develop the large deposits of shale at Newnes, in New South Wales. It is very necessary for us to have as much petrol as possible.

Senator Findley:

– We cannot hear the honorable senator.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Something should be done to improve the acoustic properties of the Chamber. Honorable members, whom one could hear quite plainly in the old Senate Chamber in Melbourne, hears now with the greatest difficulty. I shall be glad to know if the Minister for Defence has any report on the possibility of developing the shale oil deposits at Newnes.

I should also like to know whether the seaplane carrier now in course of construction -at Cockatoo Island will be delivered within the contract time.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland - Minister for Defence [4.3]. - I understand that the Public

Accounts Committee inquired generally into the possibilities of oil production in the Commonwealth, and in the course of its report suggested the advisability of research into methods of distilling oil from shale deposits. I think that it also recommended that these deposits should be reserved for defence purposes. Officers of the Defence Department are now investigating the oil supplies of the Commonwealth with a’ view to making supplies of oil available in time of war, and in the course of their investigations they will undoubtedly take cognizance of the shale oil deposits of the Commonwealth and the report of the Public Accounts Committee upon them.

The last information I received concerning the seaplane carrier being con1structed at the Cockatoo Island dockyard was to the effect that it was hoped to launch it in November of next year. That is a little beyond the contract time.

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

– The most important recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee was that oil shale deposits in Australia should, if possible, be treated as they are in America. Even at the present high prices charged for American and foreign petrol, shale oil cannot be extracted at a price which will enable it to compete successfully with flow oil. For the future safety of Australia it is therefore deemed essential that no such competition should be entered into; but that the oil shale deposits in Australia should be conserved for use in times of emergency, as is being done in America. That country, which is wonderfully rich in petroleum products, possesses millions of pounds’ worth of flow oil, and has also large tracts of country carrying deposits of oil shale which are jealously conserved by the American Government in case the supply of flow oil should become exhausted.

Senator Ogden:

– Petroleum is much . cheaper in America than in Australia.

Senator KINGSMILL:

– Yes, the extraction of oil from shale, and the” production and carriage of flow oil are also cheaper in that country, but the American authorities have found it necessary to pursue the policy I have mentioned. If that is the case, it is of greater urgency that Australia, which up to the present has not any flow oil, should conserve its oil shale deposits against emergencies which may arise, and when supplies of flow oil may be cut off. I sincerely trust that the committee mentioned by the Minister may he influenced to some little degree by the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee.

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

– I endorse all that has been said by Senator Kingsmill. As a member of the Accounts Committee at the time the investigation was conducted, I may say that the committee went very carefully into the whole question of oil shale deposits in Australia. We ascertained that unless the shale deposits at Newnes were preserved and the plant protected much of the work already done would be valueless. The timbers in the workings were collapsing, and if operations were to re-commence in the event of an emergency, a good deal of preliminary work would have to be undertaken. Realizing the seriousness of the situation, the committee recommended that the Government should, as soon as possible, endeavour to obtain control of the shale, but not necessarily with the intention of working the deposits to full capacity. A number of expert witnesses gave valuable information to the committee concerning what is being done in America. As mentioned by Senator Kingsmill, the American authorities have already taken steps to preserve the shale deposits in that country, although, we understand, there is practically an unlimited supply of flow oil available. Competent authorities stated in evidence before the committee that at that time there was no indication of any diminution in the supply of flow oil. The American authorities evidently think it essential to place the large deposits of shale under government control, so that they mav be available for future use. Up to the present flow oil is not available in Australia, but there are some very valuable deposits of oil shale. In these circumstances it is necessary to obtain control so that if necessary oil may be extracted with the least possible delay. I assi.ro honorable senators that the members of the committee were much impressed by the large oil shale deposits in the different States, which should be placed under the control of the Government, so that supplies of oil shale may be available should they be needed.

Senator COX (New South Wales> [4.12].- When in the Wolgan Valley a-, few weeks ago, I was sorry to find that a. considerable amount of damage had been, done to the plant at the Newnes shale deposits. A good deal of machinery costing thousands of pounds, has already been removed.

Senator Needham:

– And the company has lost £1,000,000.

Senator Kingsmill:

– And for four years the company has been “black.”

Senator COX:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– Yes, and it is “ black “ to-day. Everything easily removable has been taken away, and locomotives used for hauling goods over 30 miles of railway through the mountains, are lying in the open. The houses of workmen have been demolished. Whilst I was there I saw one being hauled up the mountain side by a team of horses. As such a lot of valuable work has been done, it seems a pity that the works should be deserted.

Senator OGDEN:
Tasmania

– The treatment of oil shale is a rather important subject. I read very carefully the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee, and I believe that if the Government should’ attempt to do anything of the nature recommended by the committee it will be confronted with a very large order. Hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent in New South Wales and Tasmania. There are two companies operating in the latter State, one of which is this month giving a demonstration of its process of extracting the oil. I remind the Minister and honorable senators that the correct commercial process for the extraction of oil from shale has not yet been discovered.

Senator Kingsmill:

– It is different on every field.

Senator OGDEN:

– Neither in New South Wales nor in Tasmania has the most suitable commercial process been discovered. Another difficulty is that the land belongs to the State. No doubt the Commonwealth could resume it in a time of crisis; but it cannot reserve these areas without compensating the companies for the large amount of money which they have spent. The Government should assist those who are endeavouring to discover a successful process, even if in the future the oil may be required for defence and other purposes. The oil shale is practically useless until a proper commercial process is discovered. What will be the use of conserving such supplies if in a few years a superior motor spirit is discovered? It is unwise to recommend conserving supplies for future use. The position is quite different in America, where motor spirit can be bought for ls. to ls. Id. a gallon, whereas it is approximately 2s. a gallon in, say, Melbourne and Sydney. It is an easy matter for America to conserve her* supplies of oil shale. The Bronder process is being tried out iri Tasmania, and it is hoped that it will be a success. Experiments are being made with another process, at Southern Cross, and those associated with the undertaking say that the product will be able to successfully compete with motor spirit now in use.

Senator GRANT:
New South Wales

– I think I am correct in saying that a good deal more than a million pounds has been lost by the Commonwealth Oil -Corporation in the Wolgan Valley, because up to the present it has not devised any scheme of successfully extracting oil from shale. This is the trouble in Tasmania.

Senator Elliott:

– Why have the works been declared “black?”

Senator GRANT:

– I am not aware that the Commonwealth Oil Corporation has been declared black. One outstanding fact is that although the Common- wealth Government offered the company a subsidy of so much per gallon, it has failed to discover a satisfactory method of extracting oil from shale.

Senator Ogden:

– It cannot extract it « on a commercial basis.

Senator GRANT:

– No. It is not a question of keeping the shale out of use. The trouble is the inability, up to the present, to devise any satisfactory scheme for the extraction of oil from the Wolgan deposits. We cannot possibly hope to compete, for the time being, with the oil producing companies in the United States of America. I understand that the shale in the Wolgan valley is exceedingly rich in oil, but so far no process has been devised for its extraction on a commercial basis.

Senator REID:
Queensland

.- The Minister for Defence (Senator Glasgow) said, so I understand that a committee of officers of the Defence Department had been appointed to investigate the problem referred to by Senator Grant.

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

– The object of the committee is to inquire into oil supplies generally and to take cognisance of the probable resources of the Commonwealth.

Senator REID:

– I know of another shale oil deposit between Brisbane and Ipswich to which I should like to direct the attention of the Minister. Some of the people who are interested in it have made representations to the federal members with the object of securing assistance from the Government to carry on the work there. A considerable sum of money has already been expended and the prospects, I believe, are really goo ^ ; but unfortunately the company has not sufficient funds to continue operations. Apparently Senator Ogden is opposed to the Government becoming actively associated with these undertakings. He believes that more good will be done by financial assistance being given to the companies operating these deposits. There may be something in his argument. Up to the present all the numerous attempts to extract oil from the shale oil deposits in the different States have not been entirely satisfactory from a commercial point of view. I trust, however, that the Government will see its way to help the company I have mentioned.

Senator COX:
Queensland

.- I have a personal knowledge of the Wolgan Valley shale oil deposits and I know that, if the Government could be prevailed upon to grant financial assistance, a number of private citizens would be prepared to invest £100,000 in a company for the exploitation of the shale. I doubt, however, if that amount of capital would be sufficient.

Senator Ogden:

– Are they still experimenting.

Senator COX:

– No. At present there are only about twenty people there, and the position generally is most unsatisfactory.

Senator Foll:

– They are all “ broke.”

Senator Cox:

– I do not know that that is so.

Senator Elliott:

– Why was so much machinery put in before the deposit was properly tested?

Senator COX:

– The company worked the shale for several years. There is no doubt about the quality of the Wolgan Valley and the Capertee shale deposits. They are of enormous extent and are exceedingly rich in oil contents, but unfortunately, up to the present, it has not been possible to work them economically.

Senator Elliott:

– What is the use of assisting concerns that cannot be worked economically ?

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

– I understand that distillation is the chief problem. ‘

Senator COX:

– I am informed that but for the working conditions, the company could get all the oil it wanted from the shale; but as things are, the cost is prohibitive.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– Of course.

Senator FINDLEY:

– I should like to know at whose expense fly-proof doors back and front and fly-proof kitchen and dining-room windows were provided in the brick area. I understand that the commission has placed these health protectors in the buildings in the brick area. Thereshould be no class distinctions in Canberra. Are the people of the brick area of more importance than those who live in the area where there are wooden buildings, and where I understand there are not fly-proof doors or windows? If the commission considers it right to put these health protectors on brick buildings, what reason does it advance for not treating in the same way those who live in the area to which I have just referred? I hope that the Government will urge the commission to make all tenements in the city area as nearly as possible fly and mosquito proof, especially when we are nearing the summer months, during which I arn informed, I think correctly, that blow-flies are a serious menace.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland, Minister for Defence) [5. 10]. - If people in the brick area have fly-proof doors and windows, they pay for them. If they are in rented houses, they pay extra rent, according to the cost of the buildings, inclusive of flyproof doors and windows. No distinction has been made in this respect between the brick area and the wood area.

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

– I should like to know whether any report has been received by the Government from the North Australia Commission in connexion with developmental railways in Northern Australia. I understand that some months ago the commission undertook to report upon the future requirements of that portion of the Commonwealth, and the people of Queensland are anxious to know the result of the commission’s investigations.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland, Minister for Defence) [5.12]. - To frame a report on communications in the Northern Territory, and after all, the great problem of the territory is communications, would occupy the North Australia Commission for a considerable time. The commissioners have a large area to cover, and I am not yet aware that any report has been received from them in connexion with their proposals for developmental railways.

Senator REID:
Queensland

.- I am gratified to learn that the Commonwealth railways are paying not only working expenses, but also something towards interest on capital cost. I congratulate the commissioner and his staff on having reached that position. I should like to know if the Government is pushing on with the extension of the 4-ft. 8^-in. gauge line from Port Augusta to Red Hill, and if the South Australian Government has begun to lay the third rail from Red Hill to Adelaide. Honorable senators will recollect that the Commonwealth Government agreed with the South Australian Government to build a railway from Port Augusta to. Red Hill, and the South Australian Government agreed to lay a third rail from Red Hill to Adelaide. Under that arrangement, overseas passengers travelling by the EastWest railway will make their journey in greater comfort, and will not be obliged to change from the comfortable transcon tinental train into inconvenient trains between Port Augusta and Adelaide.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– Like Senator Reid, I am pleased to note in the latest report presented to Parliament by the Commonwealth Commissioner of Railways, the progress made by the East- West railway. The bill introduced in the Commonwealth Parliament t ‘o authorize a survey of a route to link up the east and the west, was most unpopular in Victoria. There was much opposition to it; a lot of pessimists thought that if the line were built it would prove to be an everlasting burden on the shoulders of the people of Australia. The line was designated by many uncomplimentary names. When, later on, a bill for the construction of the railway came before the Commonwealth Parliament, I supported it, as I had supported the Survey Bill. At that time some people, conscientiously, perhaps, believed that those members of Parliament who gave their support to either bill would be well within the danger zone when they met their masters, the electors, at a general election. I told those who were of that opinion that I should do what I conscientiously believed to be right, and that if I lost my seat in the Senate as a result of my votes, I should bow to the will of the majority. Time passed, and to-day there is no one who will declare that the East- West line has not justified its construction, and is not in the best interests of Australia. No one in his wildest moments would anticipate that such a railway would pay at the commencement. No one anxious for the progress of the Commonwealth would anticipate that a big proposition like this, built for the development of the Commonwealth, and the convenience of its people, and involving considerable expenditure, would pay immediately. The direct and indirect benefit derived from the railway cannot be calculated in pounds, shillings and pence. If we looked at every big proposition from a financial viewpoint little or no progress would be made in Australia. The east-west railway has now turned the corner. During the last financial year it paid working expenses and provided a sum to meet a portion of the interest on the capital outlay.

I am disappointed, however, with the slow progress made in bringing about a uniform gauge between the east and the west.

SenatorReid. - Victoria is opposed to the gauge recommended by the commission.

Senator FINDLEY:

– That may be so; but I have always been in favour of a uniform gauge, which will have to be adopted sooner or later. There are, for instance, three breaks of gauge between Adelaide and Perth, namely at Terowie, Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie, and it is easy to imagine the inconvenience and cost to travellers. Incidentally I may refer to the break of gauge at Albury. To attend the sittings of Parliament last week, I left Melbourne on the Monday preceeding the Wednesday on which the present session opened. TheRoyal Agricultural Show had been in progress in Melbourne and there were a number of interstate travellers and Federal Parliamentarians on the train. The Albury station, which is not well lighted, was overcrowded, and I found that it was most difficult to make any progress along the platform owing to space taken up by the mail matter being transferred from one train to another, by passengers handling their own baggage, and by dogs being led along the platform. All this inconvenience could be avoided if the Commonwealth Government in co-operation with the States adopted a uniform gauge.

Senator Crawford:

– The commission appointed by the Government has already recommended the adoption of the 4 ft. 8½ in. gauge.

Senator FINDLEY:

– I know there is a feeling amongst certain people in Victoria that that is the best gauge, but in other directions a different opinion prevails. These breaks of gauge are a bad advertisement for Australia especially when oversease and interstate travellers, are, by reason of them, subjected to a great deal of inconvenience and cost. Now a commencement has been made with the work of linking Brisbane with Sydney by means of a 4 ft. 8½ in. gauge line. I trust the Government will undertake the necessary work of linking the east with the west in the same way. If that were done, it would not be long before the construction of a uniform gauge line between Melbourne and Sydney would be undertaken.

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

– I am anxious to know what progress is being made with the construction of the Kyogle to South Brisbane railway. I understand there has been some difficulty in commencing the construction of a bridge over the Clarence River. The New South Wales Government has been promising to commence this necessary work, but up to the present very little has been done. It is essential that the completion of the bridge should synchronize with the completion of the railway, and I trust that if the New South Wales Government has not yet made a start pressure will be brought upon it by the federal authorities, so that the opening of the line may not be unnecessarily delayed. I join with other honorable senators in expressing appreciation of the manner in which the Commonwealth railways, particularly the east-west line, are being conducted. The Commonwealth Railways Commissioner has indulged in some self-congratulation by quoting the opinion of world-wide travellers I can, from personal experience, endorse all that he has said. On a journey to Perth I happened to be in company with an American globe-trotter, and incidentally remarked that the eastwest line provided the best service of any railway in Australia. He replied, “I have travelled the world, and know of nothing better anywhere.” That is sufficient to show that, in the opinion of that gentleman, at least, the remarks of the commissioner are fully justified.

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT

– A bill will be introduced this session to provide for the construction of a 4-ft. 8½-in. gauge line from Port Augusta to Red Hill. In reply to the point raised by Senator Thompson, I may say that it is expected that the construction of the railway between Kyogle and South Brisbane will be completed within the next eighteen months.

Senator Thompson:

– What is being done in connexion with the bridge over the river Clarence?

Senator CRAWFORD:

– I cannot state definitely; but I understand that the work will be commenced very shortly.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I endorse all that has been said by Senator Findley concerning the excellent service provided by the eastwest railway. Many who scoffed at the proposal to construct the line now hold a- totally different opinion. I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Works and Railways what is being done in connexion with the construction of the section of railway between Red Hill and Port Augusta? I believe the agreement provided that the work was to be completed by 1929.

Senator Crawford:

– A bill -will be introduced this session providing for the construction of that line.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– Will the Minister consider the advisableness of installing wireless telegraphy on the trains on the east-west railway? During the time I have been travelling on that line I have heard nothing but approval of the comforts available, and the civility of the staff. A piano is provided in the lounge, and passengers have also the luxury of a shower-bath, which is unusual on trains. It should be an easy matter to provide a wireless set, with a loud speaker, so that passengers may be kept in touch with the world’s news. This matter, I believe, was brought under the notice of the Government by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. A. Green), who received a reply to the effect that it was impracticable to operate wireless on trains. That is not so. On one occasion when I was travelling between Perth and Kalgoorlie a passenger with a wireless set obtained good reception by fixing a broom handle on the footboard and running a wire as an aerial along the top of the carriage. The equipment was so effective that all the way to Northam passengers enjoyed a splendid programme, transmitted from Farmers’, in Perth. If that can be done with a primitive equipment, surely an effective wireless set could be provided, on the east-west trains.

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · Queensland · NAT

– I shall bring the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Needham), concern ing the installation of wireless” on the east-west trains, under the notice of the Minister for. Works and Railways.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– In discussing the vote for the Postmaster-General’s Department, I ask the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral to see if the decision given by the Minister in relation to a mutilated telegram cannot be re-considered. The mutilated message caused not only considerable expense to the person to whom it was addressed, but also gave him a great shock. The message was despatched to a man named Thomas, at Lyall’s Mill, via Collie, and read - “Little girl discharged hospital returned home. Account No. 1,021 tickets other material forwarded McKenzie.” The message as received by Thomas read - “ Little girl just died hospit.il return home.” One can imagine the anguish of a father on receiving such a message. Thomas lost four days’ employment. It cost him approximately £17, I understand, for motor hire to reach the hospital, and all the time he was under the impression that his daughter was dead. This man put the matter before the secretary of his union, who got into touch with the DeputyDirector of Posts and Telegraphs in Perth, from whom he received the following letter under date 23rd May, 1927 :-

In reply to your inquiry regarding a telegram dated 4/5/27, to Lyall’s Mill. I beg to express regret for the mutilation which occurred in telephonic transmission from Collie during the progress of a thunderstorm, which rendered reception difficult. The circumstances and inconvenience occasioned are very, much regretted.

The secretary of the union then brought the matter under my notice, and I communicated with the Postmaster-General, who upheld the decision of the DeputyDirector of Posts and Telegraphs, and stated that there was no redress for Mr. Thomas. I realize that it ‘is almost impossible to conduct a vast telegraphic system, such as we have in Australia, without occasional mistakes, and that the service is an excellent one; but I venture to say that the case I have just mentioned should be reconsidered. Let any honorable senator put himself in the position of this man, working, as he was, some distance from his home, and knowing that his child was in a hospital. Let honorable senators imagine his feelings when he received a telegram to say that his child had just died; let them imagne, also, the mental agony which he must have suffered before he was able to reach the hospital, then to learn that his child was alive and well. The Postmaster-General was quite sympathetic in his reply to my representations, but I maintain that in such extraordinary circumstances the decision should be reviewed. Mr. Thomas should be compensated for the time lost from his work, and reimbursed the expenses which he had to incur in trying to reach the hospital as quickly as possible. I hope that the Honorary Minister will bring the matter under the notice of the Postmaster-General again, with a view to securing redress for Mr. Thomas.

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT

– In reply to the honorable senator, I can only say that I shall bring his representations under the notice of the Postmaster-General.

Senator REID:
Queensland

– I direct attention to the items : administration staff, salaries, £17,500, and Administrative staff, contingencies, £10,250, under the heading, “ North Australia and Central Australia.” I should like to know if the Minister has any information as to what the North Australia Commission is doing, and if any recommendatons have been made by that body for the development of the Northern Territory.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Qupensland - Minister for Defence) [5.401- - The items mentioned by the honorable senator relate not to expenditure incurred by the North Australia Commission, but to the ordinary administrative costs of North Australia, and include such items as police, schools, medical, and other services. All expenses incurred by the North Australia Commission are met by special appropriation. As I intimated when replying to Senator Thompson a little while ago, I have no information as to the commission’s proposals. That body is confronted with a rather big task in travelling over the whole of the Territory. Owing to the wet season, its members were not able to start travelling until March of this year. It is anticipated that the commission will be in Canberra towards the end of the year, and will then furnish a report.

Mr GREENE:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Did I understand the Minister to say that the North Australia Commission was returning to Canberra towards the end of the year, and that until then the Government would not be in a position to announce its policy for the development of North and Central Australia?

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

– It is impossible for the commission to do any inspection work during the wet season, and during that period it will bo able to frame its proposals.

Mr GREENE:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It seems perfectly reasonable that the commission should do its inspection work during that period of the year when it is possible to travel through North Australia, and in the wet season, consult with the Government as to the general policy of development. I recognize that the commission has not had much time up to the present to determine what are the best lines of development to recommend; but I happen to know that certain work is being undertaken, with, I presume, the knowledge of the Cabinet. I refer to certain railway surveys, which I believe have -been undertaken at the instigation of the commission.

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

– That is so.

Mr GREENE:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I thought that the Minister might be in a position to inform the Senate for what pur-‘ pose the surveys are being undertaken, and when we are likely to have a report.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland, Minister for Defence) [5.45]. - The surveys referred to by the honorable senator are trial surveys, which are necessary before the commission can formulate any proposal. The commission deemed it advisable to have this work put in hand; but it does not necessarily follow that any railways, if constructed, will be along the route of the trial surveys. I knew that the work mentioned by Senator Greene was being undertaken, because the proposal came from the commission while I was Minister for Home and Territories, and arrangements were then made with the “Works and Railways Department to send out a survey party to make trial surveys.

Mr GREENE:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Is there any objection to stating what the surveys are?

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

– I am afraid I cannot tell the honorable senator at this stage, as we have not received a report from the commision.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– Under the heading “ Federal Capital Territory” I should like to direct the attention of the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories to the ‘bus service at present being conducted by the Federal Capital Commission. I am informed that some timeago tenders were called by the commission to enable the service to be carried out by private enterprise, and that the tenders were not considered satisfactory, with the result that the commission is still responsible for the service. Personally I believe in State or communityowned public activities, and I should be sorry to see private enterprise controlling the ‘bus service in the Federal Capital Territory. My complaint now is that the service is not frequent enough. Possibly the commission considers that an improved service is not justified by the returns; but from observations which I made a few days ago, I should say that unless better provision i3 made for the convenience of ‘the people living in Canberra, there will be risk of extreme danger to life some day. In all cities throughout Australia public conveyances are licensed to carry a certain number of passengers ; if those who run them permit overcrowding, they are liable to prosecution. At certain times of the day the buses plying for hire in Canberra are packed with people like sardines in a box. If anything happened to one of those vehicles when it was so overcrowded, many lives would be endangered. I should like to know whether it is the intention of the commission to provide a better service, or whether that body wishes to hand over the ‘buses to private enterprise. Meantime, the convenience of the residents should be considered. At present many of them have to wait long periods for ‘buses to convey them to their respec tive homes. The majority of public servants are employed at considerable distances from their homes. If for any reason they are obliged to walk, they are seriously inconvenienced, especially during such wet weather as was experienced last week. Men and women have to be at their place of employment at a certain hour each day, and at times it may not be convenient for them to walk. If the ‘bus is full when it comes along it is impossible for those people to reach their destination within the time desired. I hope that the Government will see that conveyances are provided for those who wish to use them and that they will not be so overcrowded as to constitute a danger to those who travel by them.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– (Queensland - Minister for Defence) [5.51]. - The ‘bus services in the Federal Capital Territory, with the exception of that to Queanbeyan, are run by the Federal Capital Commission. I am not acquainted with the intentions in regard to the future,- but I shall bring before the Minister the complaint that has been made by the honorable senator.

Senator ELLIOTT:
Victoria

.- There is another matter that the Ministry would do well to consider. The government of the Federal Capital Territory is carried on under ordinances, into one of which an irritating provision has crept. If a person has business premises in the civic centre he can let the whole of them without reference to the commission, but if he should wish to sub-let a portion he must first obtain its consent. Considerable delay is thus caused, and a prospective tenant cannot be readily informed whether he may have the use of the portion he desires. The idea originally was that the shopkeeper would have his residence on the upper floor, and it was considered undesirable to allow him to take in lodgers, the benevolent intention being to obviate the creation of slum areas. I believe that the commission itself has found the provision unworkable and is anxious that it should be withdrawn.

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

– I shall have the attention of the Minister drawn to the matter.

Senator ELLIOTT:

– A complaint has reached me from servants of the adminis- tration in New Guinea. They have not the right of appeal in regard to salaries to either the Public Service Board or the Public Service Arbitrator. Their salaries have not been increased since the date of their appointment. A most glaring anomaly has occurred as the result of the appointment recently of a gold-fields warden - a junior officer with really no high professional qualifications. It was found necessary to appoint a Queensland man and the administration was obliged to offer him a high salary. He is receiving a salary greater than that which is. being paid to other officers who are his superiors. Neither in Victoria nor in New South Wales is a gold-fields warden or a magistrate in receipt of a salary greater than that which is paid to the head of the department. The salaries attaching to those positions in Australia have risen considerably since 1920, and they must be paid to any one who goes to New Guinea from Australia. Provision should be made whereby public servants in New Guinea would have access to either the Public Service Arbitrator or the Public Service Board.

SenatorReid. - We have nothing to do with them.

Senator ELLIOTT:

– We are responsible for the administration in New Guinea, and it is our duty to see that the officers there are given conditions comparable with those that exist in Australia.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– (Queensland - Minister for Defence) [5.58]. - The Minister for Homes and Territories (Mr. Marr) recently visited New Guinea and, doubtless, this matter was brought to his notice. I point out to the honorable senator that it was necessary to obtain the services of a very competent officer who possessed a knowledge of mining law, to administer affairs at Edie Creek, where trouble had occurred. At the time there was not in the Territory an officer who possessed those qualifications, and he had to be obtained from a mainland State in which there was a mining administration. The officer selected has succeeded in bringing about more contentment. I shall refer to the Minister the question that has been raised by the honorable senator.

Schedule agreed to.

Preamble and title agreed to.

Bill reported without requests; report adopted.

Bill (on motion by Senator Sir William Glasgow) read a third time.

page 277

APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1927-28

Bill received from House of Representatives.

Motion (by Senator Sir William Glasgow), agreed to -

That so much of the standing and sessional orders be suspended as would prevent the bill being passed through all its stages without delay.

Bill (on motion by Senator Sir William Glasgow), read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Home and Territories · Queensland · NAT

[6.6]. - I move- -

That the bill be now read a second time.

This bill is to grant and apply the sum of £317,649 out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund for the services of the year ending the 30th June, 1928, for the purposes of additions, new works, buildings, &c., and to appropriate that sum. The total amount which Parliament is being asked to appropriate is £101,202 more than the expenditure of the previous year, and £20,915 more than the amount voted for 1926-27. The amounts included in the bill for the many services are relatively small. The total amount of £317,649 is distributed under two parts, as follows : - Part I. Departments and services, other than business undertakings and Territories of the Commonwealth, £284,049 ; and Part 3. Territories of the Commonwealth, £33,600. The principal items provided for are: - Reserves of stores, including ammunition, ordnance, torpedo stores, and coal and oil fuel, £74,000; oil fuel storage facilities, £24,000; naval bases, works and establishments, £20,000; machinery and plant for manufacture of munitions not now produced in Australia, £39,681; acquisition of Small Arms Ammunition. Factory, Footscray, £19,153; erection of, and alterations and additions to, buildings, and construction of launches and vessels for Customs Department, £25,015 ; new buildings, alterations, and additions, and construction of launches and vessels for Health Department, £ 41,870 ; erection, &c. of buildings, construction and filling of petrol tank and construction of buildings and roads, engineering services and water boring in North Australia and Central Australia, £31,600. Ministers will be glad to furnish any information required as to the details of the works referred to when the bill reaches the committee stage.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I realize that this bill is the complement of the measure with which we have just dealt. The Senate is asked to provide funds for the continuance of the various works already in course of construction. In the circumstances, I shall not take up the time of the Senate at this stage, but will reserve any comments I desire to make until the Committee stage has been reached.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

page 278

COMMONWEALTH ELECTORAL BILL

Secondreading.

Debate resumed from 5th October (vide page 171) on motion by Senator Sir William Glasgow -

That the hill he now read a second time.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I listened.yesterday with a great deal of interest to the speech of the Minister when moving the second reading of this measure. The honorable gentleman complimented the Joint Committee on Electoral Law and Procedure on the excellent work it had performed and the recommendations it had made in connexion with our electoral laws; but he intimated that the Government could not seeits way clear to accept some of those recommendations. In many directions our electoral laws could be improved. For instance, those sections which deal with elections to the Senate could, with advantage, be amended. I realize, however, that if I were to refer to many of the defects in our existing electoral legislation I should be discussing matters which are outside the scope of the measure now before us. I have carefully perused the bill, and realize that it embodies, to a greatextent, the recommendations of the committee to which reference has been made, and of the officers of Electoral Department. It is principally a machinery measure. I propose to refer to four matters with which it deals, namely: signed articles, the reduction in the hours of polling, postal voting and gifts, donations, and contributions by members of Parliament. Clause 25 provides

Section one hundred and sixty-four of the Principal Act is amended by adding at the end thereof the following sub-section: - “(3) This section shall not apply to the publication in a newspaper of -

A leading article; or
An article in a newspaper which consists solely of a report of a meeting, and docs not contain any comment (other than comment made by a speaker at the meeting) upon an)’ candidate, or political party, or the issues being submitted to the electors.”

This amendment opens up a question, which is not only important, but also very controversial. When the electoral law was altered to make it compulsory that all articles appearng in newspapers for a certain period prior to an election, and until the return of the writs, should be signed, I was a member of the Senate, and assisted in passing the amendment. Nothing has occurred in the intervening years to make me change my opinion. I supported the amendment of the law at that time to compel writers of leading and other articles in the newspapers during an election campaign to sign their names to them. My reason for doing so was that parties were subjected to a vast amount of misrepresentation in newspaper articles, and the members of the party to which I belonged were particular sufferers in that respect. The fact that the writers of articles have been compelled to sign them has, I think, been the means of reducing a great deal of the misrepresentation that previously existed. As a matter of fact, “misrepresentation” is a rather mild term to use. All sorts of statements were made to vilify the Labour party, and place the objects it had in view in a false light before the people. I have no reason to think that that particular antagonism has diminished in the slightest. I venture to say that if this check on newspaper writers is removed there will be scope for active writers in the interests of their parties and in the dissemination of their party propaganda to go beyond the bounds of ordinary f airplay, and to so put their case before the electors as to confuse them and prevent them from giving a really clear and intelligent vote on election day. There is certainly a qualification in the proposal containing the bill. If any comment is made on the subject matter of a report the article must be signed. But I am not at all in favour of either the recommendation of the Select Committee or the Government’s proposal. Evidence may have been brought forward in favour of it, but I know no just reason why the law should be altered in this regard. The provision in the act has helped to make political contests fairer; it has helped to put the views of all candidates clearly before the electors, and, after all, it is the duty of all parties to give to the great jury which on election day will decide the personnel of Parliament all the facts necessary to assist them in arriving at their verdict. I have come to the conclusion, therefore, that I cannot support the proposed amendment. In this regard I wish it to be clearly understood that whatever comments I may make on this measure, however I may vote, I am speaking and acting for myself. Honorable senators of the Labour party differ in their views in regard to this bill, and the electoral law generally. For my own part I cannot support an amendment which will mean the elimination of the obligation to sign articles in newspapers during an election campaign. Another important amendment seeks to reduce the hours of voting.

Senator Thompson:

– “We find that the six o’clock closing hour works well in Queensland.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– Probably it does, and the Commonwealth system of having the poll from 8 o’clock in the morning till 8 o’clock at night has also worked well. I know no valid reason why the hours of polling should be reduced. It must be remembered that we provide for compulsory voting in our electoral law. Therefore, we should not restrict the facilities given to the people to comply with the law. I cannot see what those in charge of polling booths will gain by reducing the polling time by one hour.

– Yes, and I am exceedingly sorry that he is not present; I should have liked him to be here. “We cannot delay discussion on this subject until he returns, because the Senate cannot be permitted to sleep on its rights. I have no desire to censure any one; my only wish is to assist in preserving the rights of the Senate. The Honorary Minister (Senator Crawford) also presented a number of papers. He did not seek or obtain leave, and the business of the Senate was not called on in the proper way. A motion for leave of absence, and a motion concerning the next meeting of the Senate were disposed of before the business of the Senate was called on; as a matter of fact the business was not called at all during the sitting. I must beg leave to differ entirely from any one who says that that was not a breach of the privileges of the Senate. Why was it done? We were told that objection would be taken to the presentation of the Public Accounts Committee’s report to the Senate on that day as it might lead to an unseemly discussion. No discussion could have arisen on the day the report was presented. The Chairman of the Committee would have done the same as he did last week. He would have presented the report, and given notice of his intention to move “ that the paper be printed.” In any case an arrangement for the convenience of the other House should not concern the Senate, which is an independent branch of the legislature. - As I have said, no discussion would have taken place had the report been presented that day. It was brought forward last Wednesday week - ten days ago - and there has not yet been a word of discussion upon it. I submit that the whole procedure was a gross breach of the privileges of the Senate. If honorable senators will refer to the 13th edition of May, page 81, they will find the following : -

Wilful disobedience to any of the orders or rules which regulate the proceedings of the House is a breach of privilege.

That is the practice laid down in the latest edition of May. It is unequivocal. There is no escaping from it. The procedure of the House of Commons has established for us our parliamentary rights and privileges. The more I studied its rules and practice, which it was my duty to do during the thirteen years that I had the honour to occupy the chair in which you, Mr. President, are now sitting, the more impressed was I with the wisdom and sagacity of the men who had framed and maintained them. While they give the Government of the day full opportunity to proceed with its business in a proper way, they also protect the rights of minorities and of individuals. It should be the concern, as it is the duty, of every member of this Parliament to see that those rights and privileges are handed on to future Parliaments inviolate.

I did not draw attention to what I considered, at the time, to be improper procedure at the meeting of the Senate on the 9th of May, until the Leader of the Senate (Senator Pearce) had moved the adjournment. I felt that although what was done was unquestionably wrong, it might have been due to the inadvertence of yourself or of Senator Pearce, caused by the unique importance of the occasion, and therefore excusable. I thought that perhaps you and Senator Pearce might have been affected by the excitement of that historic occasion, or might have been a little exhilarated because of the high honours which had been conferred upon both of you by His

Majesty the King. In such circumstances, the departure from correct procedure would have been understandable, and might have been excused. I should not have taken exception to it, and it might have been overlooked,- had not Senator Pearce, in moving the motion for the adjournment of the Senate, “ given the whole show away,” if I may be permitted to use a colloquial expression. He said that what had been done had been done deliberately. It could not have been done without your concurrence, Mr. President, since you are the custodian and guardian of the Senate’s rights and privileges. I thereupon directed attention to the fact that no one - neither you nor the Minister - had any right to interpose between the Chairman of a Committee of the Senate, and the Senate itself, in order to prevent him from presenting a report to the Senate. In reply to that statement Senator Pearce said - his remarks may be found on page 11 of Hansard -

I am not discussing any question of right; I am merely putting it- that the Government in the course it has taken to-day has not given the committee an opportunity to present its report.

– When presiding over this chamber I always took especial care to see that the procedure was in strict accordance with established parliamentary practice. The President has a right to “ see “ or call on a Minister first. That is a right which no one can deny. However, let me return to the proceedings on the 9th May. Senator Pearce went on to say: -

Notices of motions and questions were not called on because of the way in which the Government put certain motions before the chamber.

The Government had no right whatever to place any business before the chamber until petitions, notices of motion and questions had been called for by the President. ,

I do not wish to labour the question. Even if I felt so disposed, my physical condition would not allow me to do so. I should like to emphasize that if. in my view, the procedure, to which j take exception, on the 9th May had been due to inadvertence because of excitement natural on such a unique and important occasion or to exhilaration on the part of either you, sir, or the Leader of the Senate because of the honour that had been conferred upon you, the matter could have been overlooked; but since it has been admitted that the procedure was adopted deliberately, I feel compelled to submit this motion in order to protect the rights of this chamber. If honorable senators will look at Standing Order No. 412 they will find that when the mover of a motion has replied, the debate is absolutely closed. There can be no exception to that rule whatever. On the 9th May, however, that Standing Order was not complied with. The Hansard report of the proceedings shows that after Senator Pearce had moved his motion, and had replied, you, sir, also addressed the Senate. Your right to do that at the proper time and on any subject, and to vote on any subject is unchallengeable. But you have no more right than any other honorable senator to address the chamber after a debate has been closed as provided by the Standing Orders. However, that is a much smaller matter, and I do not wish to stress it. My chief concern is to sec that the rights and privileges, the independence, the honour, and the dignity of the Senate are not impaired, and 1 appeal to every honorable senator to declare that the procedure of the 9th May must not be regarded as a precedent. If it were, it would deprive us of those rights and privileges which have been fought for through the centuries by -the House of Commons.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

[8.25]. - Honorable senators will agree that the proceedings in the Senate on the 9th May were extraordinary.

Senator Givens:

– That is so.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– On such an historic occasion the ordinary procedure of the Senate could not be strictly adhered to. After the opening ceremony, the proceedings were suspended, and on resuming, the VicePresident of the Executive Council (Senator Pearce) rose, as was his right, and asked leave to move a motion. The routine of business is laid down by Standing Order 66, which reads -

Tho Senate shall, unless otherwise ordered, proceed each day with its ordinary business in the following’ routine: - (1) Presentation of petitions; (2) Giving notices, and questions without notice; (3) Questions on notice; (4) Formal motions; (5) Postponement of business; (0) Motions and orders of the day, or vice versa, as set down on the notice-paper.

The Standing Order specifically lays down the routine of business to be followed, “unless otherwise ordered.” On the occasion referred to, when the VicePresident of the Executive Council asked leave to move a motion, there was no dissentient voice.

Senator Kingsmill:

– If there had been he could not have moved the motion.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW.As the honorable senator has said, if there had been an objection, the VicePresident of the Executive Council could not have submitted his motion. The permission of the Senate having been obtained, as provided for in the standing order I have just quoted, the procedure was altered. The first business was a message from the Governor-General. It will be admitted that under the Standing Orders, such a message may be reported at any time, so long as a debate is not interrupted. Then, in accordance with Standing Order 67, certain papers were presented. The presentation of papers also may be done at any time when other business is not before the Senate. Then came a motion by the Leader of the Senate, under Standing Order 65, which provides that any motion connected with the conduct of the business of the Senate may be moved by a Minister at any time without notice. After that came the motion for the adjournment, as provided for in Standing Order 63. This may be moved by a Minister at any time. Although the procedure of the 9th May may have been unusual, the departure from the routine of business was not made without the leave of the Senate, as provided/ for in Standing Order 66. This matter was discussed at some length on the motion for the adjournment on the 9th May, and I do not think that anything has arisen since then to alter the position. I hope that the Senate will not agree to the motion.

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

– I shall say but a very few words on this subject since I think it has been threshed almost threadbare. I intend to support the motion, because, in my opinion, the procedure adopted on the occasion referred to was most undesirable, and, I believe, was taken deliberately, in order to prevent an important report of the Public Accounts Committee from being presented. If I were at liberty, I could bring proof of that statement.

Senator Grant:

– Why does not the honorable senator produce his proof?

Senator KINGSMILL:

– Because I do not consider it right to introduce private interviews into a discussion in the Senate. I believe the procedure of the 9 th May was taken deliberately. In future I shall be very careful about granting leave for any statement to be made or motion to be moved, unless I know what is likely to be the outcome.

The fact that it was a tactical blunder has nothing to do with the case, and does not influence my judgment on this occasion. My very long experience of parliamentary procedure on the floor of the House, and in the Chair, convinces me that it is a precedent which ought not to be followed. If the motion is defeated, the inference will be that the procedure adopted on the 9th May should be regarded as a precedent. I ask honorable senators to bear that point in mind. Foi the reasons that I have endeavoured to express as clearly and shortly as possible, it is my intention to support the motion, although I regret that it has been moved, believing that we should “Let the dead past bury its dead.” I should not be true to my conception of the functions of this Senate, the Parliament as a whole, and the procedure that ought to be followed, if I did not support the motion.

Senator GRANT:
New South Wales

– Senator Givens, President of the Senate for thirteen years, but now exPresident, has failed to establish his case. He has been supported by Senator Kingsmill, but that honorable senator has not had the courage to express his real opinion. It appears to me that the procedure qf which Senator Givens complains was the result of intervention by the Government before honorable senators had had an opportunity to ask questions or give notice of motion. Senator Glasgow has rightly pointed out that the procedure laid down must be followed only “ unless otherwise ordered.” It was “otherwise ordered.” If my memory serves me rightly, Senator Kingsmill had in his hands the report of the Public Accounts Committee in readiness to submit it. Why did he not submit it? What was the power behind the scenes that prevented him from doing so? Usually outspoken and courageous, Senator Kingsmill must have been “ got at “ by some unseen power that exercised its influence in the National caucus. He has cut a very sorry figure.

Senator REID:
Queensland

Senator DUNCAN:

– If we refuse to say that it must not be regarded as a precedent the only inference that can be drawn is that it can be regarded as a precedent, to be used as such by any one who in the future is in charge of the business of the Senate. We may not always have on the Government bench the highly estimable type of men who now occupy it. The day may come when a Leader of the Government in this chamber will seek to rob honorable senators of their rights and privileges by quoting the vote of the Senate on this motion as a precedent - as he would be entitled to do - and acting upon it with the support of the majority of honorable senators. It would not be wise for the Senate to run a risk of that kind. It is our duty, in the interests of the Senate, both now and in the future, to maintain all the rights and privileges which we enjoy to-day. But we can do that without in any way inferring condemnation of your action, Mr. President, and that of the Minister who was in charge of the Senate on the historic occasion in question. I, therefore, move as an amendment -

That the words, “ was a grave breach of the privileges of the House and “ be left out.

There is no need for the Senate to declare that the procedure adopted on the 9th May was a grave breach of the privileges of the House. The only concern of the Senate is that that procedure shall not be regarded as a precedent to be followed in the future. In its amended form the motion would carry with it no condemnation, actual or- implied, of any one; yet would make it clear that this Senate is of the opinion that the action taken on the 9th May must not be regarded as a precedent.

Senator Ogden:

– The amendment does not take the sting out of the motion.

Senator DUNCAN:

– If honorable senators are not here, then they will not raise their voice in protest against what may be attempted. We know that at times Ministers have to resort to a certain amount of camouflage to get the business through, and so long as they are acting within the standing orders they are perfectly justified in doing so. I intend to vote against the motion.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

– I can promise honorable senators that I shall not occupy much time in replying to the debate. Senator Glasgow, the Acting Leader of the Senate, said a little while ago that the Senate had every right, under Standing Order 66, to depart from its usual order of business. That is admitted. But did the Senate on the 9th May “ otherwise order “ the routine of business on that occasion?

Senator McLachlan:

– Yes; it gave leave to the Leader of the Senate.

Senator GIVENS:

– Leave is not “ order.” “ Otherwise ordered “ can only be accomplished’ by motion. It is of no use for the Government now to try to camouflage the position. Senator McLachlan, being a lawyer, talked all round the issue with the object of confusing honorable senators and, as might have been expected, he succeeded in making it as obscure as was possible. The Senate on the 9th May, did not “ order “ the usual procedure to be departed from, notwithstanding what my friend Senator Glasgow has said. He stated that a message from the Governor-General may, be received at any time. My reply is that anything can be done in the Senate provided it is done at the proper time and in the proper way. I am not disputing that for a moment. What I am saying is that neither you, sir, nor the Government had any right to proceed with any business until the Senate had been opened in the usual manner. That is the point which I wish to impress upon honorable senators. If you had called for petitions and had asked for notices of motion and questions, then, undoubtedly, the Leader of the Senate would have been within his right in asking the leave of the Senate to adopt a certain procedure. My objection is that the departure from the recognized parliamentary practice was deliberate on the part of the Government. Senator Pearce admitted that at the time. He said that it was the intention of the Government to prevent a certain report of a Joint Parliamentary Committee from being presented. As a result of that action the public have been deprived of the report for a period of four and a half months. That is another point which I wish to make. In the course of your remarks you, sir, quoted a ruling by Sir Albert Gould, a former President of the Senate, that it is competent for a Minister to move the adjournment of the Senate immediately after prayers. I am not going to dispute that ruling. I have not looked it up, and, therefore, I am not -in a position to express an opinion. My point is* that if a Minister can move that motion at that stage the Senate can do no business, and, therefore, can do no wrong. But on the 9th May the Senate did transact business, and it was not done in the proper way. You have also said, sir, that if there was anything wrong with the procedure of the Senate on that occasion all honorable senators were equally guilty.

I remind you that whilst what you have said may be true, you, as President of this chamber, are not only the custodian of the rights and privileges of the Senate, but also primarily the guardian of those rights and privileges. Therefore, if it was our duty to protect them, it was much more your duty to watch over our procedure It is a strange doctrine that the proceedings may be conducted any old way without any responsibility on the part of the President if members do not object. I have already said that whilst I knew the procedure was wrong I thought it was due to inadvertence, and, because of the historic nature of the proceedings, excusable. But the matter assumed an entirely different aspect when Senator Pearce, in moving the adjournment of the Senate, stated that the procedure had been adopted deliberately. I should probably have taken definite action then but for the fact that it would have been distasteful to me to raise a point of order; and, moreover there was a general desire, out of consideration for you, that the proceedings should pass off smoothly. I merely wish to add that if your health was bad on that day I think mine was- very much worse. However, that is a personal matter, and need not be enlarged upon. If, as you contend, the Leader of the Senate had a right to move a motion by leave before the business was called on in the proper way, all I can say is that there is no precedent for that course in the records of either the House of Commons or this Senate. Senator J. B. Hayes has admitted that he thought the procedure wa3 wrong, and that the Chairman of the Joint Committee should not have been deprived of the right to present his report.

Senator J B Hayes:

– I said that the circumstances were exceptional, and were never likely to recur.

Senator GIVENS:

– The honorable senator said also that the proceedings of the 9th May were not likely to be regarded as’ a precedent. Unfortunately, unless we pass this motion, those proceedings will be regarded as a precedent. It will be competent for Ministers or presid-ing officers in future Parliaments to quote the procedure of the Senate on the 9th May as authority for a similar course of action. Senator McLachlan said that

– I do not wish to labour the question, nor do I desire to censure or condemn any one in connexion with the proceedings in this chamber on the 9th May. I am willing to believethat if either you, sir, or Senator Pearce, had been seized of the gravity and the importance of that unusual procedure, it would not have been adopted. I drew attention to the fact that you di.d not intervene in the debate until after Senator Pearce had replied. You did not do me the honour to reply to the point which I had raised as to your right to do that. . You will find, that according to Standing Order 412, that in all cases the reply of the mover of the original question closes the debate. That is definite enough. I have no personal feeling in the matter at all; but I insist that it is the duty of every member of this Parliament to preserve those rights and privileges which were fought for and won for us down through the centuries, and to do all that lies in his power to ensure the independence and integrity of this Parliament.

Question - That the motion be agreed to - put. The Senate divided.

AYES: 5

NOES: 17

Majority . . . . 12

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

page 293

ADJOURNMENT

Governor-General’s Garden Party and Ball - Clock in Senate Chamber - Publication of Proceedings in House of Representatives.

Motion (by Senator Sir William Glasgow) proposed-

That the Senate do now adjourn.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

– The other day I asked who had borne the expenses of the State ball and garden party which were given by the GovernorGeneral in Melbourne on the occasion of the visit to that city of Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of York. The reply was that they were borne by His Excellency, but that the Government had granted him£2,000 towards the cost. The Governor-General would have placed himself above all criticism if he had paid the total amount out of his Privy purse or his official salary orallowance; but having given those functions at the expense of the taxpayers of

Australia, with money that will have to be voted by this Parliament, he should have extended the courtesy of issuing invitations to members of this Parliament. That he did not do. Similar action was contemplated on a previous occasion, whilst the right honorable W. M. Hughes was Prime Minister. Immediately he became aware of it, he intervened and said, “ If we are to find the money, every member of the Commonwealth Parliament must be invited,” and invitations were issued to them. I understand that on this occasion only the society climbers and the aristocracy of Melbourne - genuine and shoddy - were invited, whilst members of Parliament, who will have to vote money to assist in defraying the cost, were ignored.. Apparently Mr. Bruce, who is a super-society man, is quite content to allow members of the Commonwealth Parliament to be ignored, so long as the genuine and shoddy society of Melbourne is entertained at the taxpayer’s expense.

Senator GRANT:
New South Wales

. - I invite the attention of you, Mr. President, and of honorable senators, to the unsatisfactory time-piece in the chamber. The genius who designed its face ought to be told that he does not know his business, and steps should be taken to have it so altered that honorable senators will be able to tell the time by it.

Senator OGDEN:
Tasmania

.- I wish to bring before honorable senators adisability under which members of both Houses suffer. When we sat in Melbourne honorable senators could read in the morning newspapers an account of the business which had been transacted in another place on the previous day. Here we are not aware of what has been done until we can obtain a copy of either a Sydney or a Melbourne newspaper. That isa disadvantage to members of the Senate, and, possibly, also to members of the House of Representatives. Arrangements ought to be made for the publication each morning pf the proceedings in the House of Representatives. Frequently one does not have an opportunity to read the newspapers when they arrive, and consequently is not kept properly informed of the’ business that has been transacted in another place.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for defence · Queensland · NAT

[9.56] . - I point out to Senator Givens, and to honorable senators generally, that the staff at Federal Government House have not been in Australia very long, but the practice is adopted which obtains all over the world of issuing invitations to those who observe the courtesy of entering their names in the Governor-General’s book. On a previous occasion, when there was an occurrence similar to that referred to by Senator Givens, the Clerk of the other House entered the name of every member in the book kept for that purpose at Government House. I do not know whether honorable senators consider that they should haveextended to them privileges that are not enjoyed by other members of the community. Every one is aware that certain courtesies are required in society. I use that term in a sense different from that appliedto it by Senator Givens. All that is asked is that the courtesy which is expected from the GovernorGeneral should be extendedalso to him. Senator Givens is fully aware that in every British dominion certain courtesies are extended to Vice-regal representatives. A further consideration of the matter, I am sure, will convince him that honorable senators shouldnot expect to be absolved from doing that which other members of the community are expected to do. I do not object to his having drawn attention to the matter : but I suggest that honorable senators should see that their names are entered in the book which is kept at Government House, or that which is available at No. 2 Secretariat.

Question resolved in the affirmative. Senate adjourned at 10 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 6 October 1927, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1927/19271006_senate_10_116/>.

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Senate 6 October 1927

PAPERS

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Senator FINDLEY:VICTORIA

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH LINE OF STEAMERS

Senator NEEDHAM:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

QUESTION

WAR SERVICE HOMES

Senator ANDREW:through Senator Foll

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

DRIED FRUITS INDUSTRY

Senator ANDREW:through Senator Foll

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER’S LONDON RESIDENCE

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH OIL REFINERIES

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

BOUNTIES

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator CRAWFORD:Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

QUESTION

FEDERAL AID ROADS

Senator J D MILLEN:TASMANIA

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) 1927-28

Senator FINDLEY:Victoria

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

Senator Findley:

Senator OGDEN:Tasmania

Senator NEEDHAM:Western Australia

Senator Reid:

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator ELLIOTT:Victoria

Senator Findley:

Senator ELLIOTT:

Senator J B Hayes:

Senator ELLIOTT:

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

Senator ELLIOTT:

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

Senator ELLIOTT:

Senator Crawford:

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

Senator ELLIOTT:

Senator REID:Queensland

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

Senator REID:

Senator Sir William Glasgow:

Senator Elliott:

Senator REID:

Senator Andrew:

Senator REID:

Senator ANDREW:Victoria

Senator NEEDHAM:Western Australia

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Findley:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator KINGSMILL:Western Australia

Senator Ogden:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator FOLL:Queensland

Senator Needham:

Senator Kingsmill:

Senator COX:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator OGDEN:Tasmania

Senate
6 October 1927

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator ANDREW:
through Senator Foll

Senator ANDREW:
through Senator Foll

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

Senator J D MILLEN:
TASMANIA

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

Senator OGDEN:
Tasmania

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

Senator ELLIOTT:
Victoria

Senator REID:
Queensland

Senator ANDREW:
Victoria

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

Senator COX:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator OGDEN:
Tasmania

Senator GRANT:
New South Wales

Senator REID:
Queensland

Senator COX:
Queensland

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

Senator ELLIOTT:
Victoria

Senator REID:
Queensland

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

Senator REID:
Queensland

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator REID:
Queensland

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · Queensland · NAT

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT