Senate
8 July 1925

9th Parliament · 3rd Session

  1. Senate
  2. 9th Parliament
  3. 1925

The President (Senator the Hon. T. Givens) tookthe chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

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PAPERS

The following papers were pre sented: -

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. -

No. 19 of 1925- Australian Postal Linesmen’s Union.

No. 20 of 1925 - Australian Postal Linemen’s Union and others -(Higher Duties Allowances).

Papua- Ordinance No. 2 of 1925- Port Moresby Electric Lightand Power.

Papuan Oilfields - Report for month of May, 1925, by Commonwealth Representative.

Public Service Act - Appointment - PostmasterGeneral’s Department - H. K. Burbury.

Service and Execution of Process Act - Regulations Statutory Rules 1925, No. 105.

Statement of approximate Receipts and Expenditure of ConsolidatedRevenue Fund for year 1924-25.

Territory for the Sent of Government - Ordinance No. 2 of 1925 - Industrial Board.

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QUESTION

RECIPROCAL ARRANGEMENT WITH CANADA

Senator DUNCAN:
for Senator Greene

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Government intends to re submit for consideration of the Senate the reciprocal trade arrangements between Australia and Canada?
  2. If so, in view of the fact that the Senate’s assent was obtained on the statement that the treaty had to be accepted as a whole or not at all, and that the Canadian Parliament has varied the agreement as assented to by the Senate, will the Government re-submit the agreement in such a form as will enable the Senate to reconsider the items?
Senator PEARCE:
Minister of Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The alterations and additions to the treaty will be submitted to Parliament.

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ELECTORAL BILL

Bill read a third time.

page 733

HIGH COURT PROCEDURE BILL

Bill read a third time.

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NORTHERN TERRITORY (ADMINISTRATION) BILL

Second Reading

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

.- I move-

That the bill be now renda second time.

This bill contains two provisions, one being of a machinery character and the other embracing an important change of policy. The first proposal is to omit from the original act the definition of ‘‘the Minister.” As the Acts Interpretation Act now provides a definition of “ the Minister,” it is unnecessary to have one in the Northern Territory Administration Act.

The second proposal is to repeal section 11 of the principal act, which reads as follows : -

No Crown lands in the Territory shall be sold or disposedofany estate of freehold except in pursuance of some contract entered into before the commencement of this act.

The Government proposes to repeal that provision in order to permit of ah ordinance being brought in providing for the granting of freeholds for certain classes of land under conditions to be laid down. It is intended by the Government that a freehold title shall be granted under certain conditions in respect of agricultural lands and town lands, but not in respect of pastoral lands. There are different opinions regarding the advisability of the Government, iu the name of the people, parting with the freehold of the land ; but I think that it is now generally admitted - even by those who at one time may have held strong views upon land nationalization - that the power of Parliament to tax land is equivalent to tho leasehold system, since Parliament, if it so desires, may take the whole economic rent or the land. from that, point of view, even iu respect of freehold lauds, Parliament; is really the landlord. The Northern Territory is the very lust place in which wo should institute an experiment to determine (he relative merits of the freehold and leasehold systems. From the point of view of the agriculturist, or even of thi town dweller, it is less attractive than any of the states of the Union. Western. Australia and Queensland offer far greater attractions, especially to the married mar), than does so remote a pari: of the Commonwealth as the Northern Territory. In Queensland and Western Australia, as. indeed, in all the states to-day, a person who desires to engage in agriculture can, if he has the means, obtain a freehold whilst in (his, the least attractive portion of the Commonwealth, the law prevent the acquisition of a freehold. The Government feels that there is a chance i« develop agriculture in the Northern Territory if the right course is adopted. When dealing with another measure, I spoke of the valuable assistance that can be given by means of the provision of roads, railways, and kindred services. But something more is wanted. The man who settles on the land in. the Northern Territory will face difficulties equal to, if no greater than, those encountered in other parts of the Commonwealth. Therefore, his financial position must be considered. In 90 cases out of 100, especially in tfes: earlier years of his settlement, he will have to approach some financial institution to obtain advances, or relief of some kind. Imagine the reception which would bc given to such a settler who wen: to any of our banking institutions to obtain an advance on the security of a leasehold, in order that he might cultivate it ! Many of us know from bitter experience that it is not easy to obtain advances even on freehold land, but it is absolutely impossible to do so in respect to leasehold land. Country lands are regarded less favorably by bankers than are town lands. It is unfortunate that it should be so, but the fact remains that bankers seem to prefer the security of town rather than rural lands. Anil ye; in the Northern Territory, where settle ment is so unattractive, we have by our legislation imposed upon settlers this double disadvantage. We have said that they shall not be entitled to a freehold; and not having a freehold they cannot obtain the advances that are necessary in the early days of their industry. In the earlier years of tho development of thTerritory, we cannot expect that oventown lauds will attract the capitalist In all probability, only men of small means will be attracted by them, and we want such men to take their wives and families with them. Wc do not desire th« Territory to be settled by mcn who leave their wives and families in other parts o> the Commonwealth. We want a resident, and not a migratory population, in the Territory. We want the people to Lave their own homes. What chance would a man have of providing himself with a home in a town in the Northern Territory if he had only a leasehold? . In the Federal Capital Territory, where the Commonwealth is carrying out the great experiment of having only the leasehold system in operation, the position is altogether different. If there is in the Commonwealth a leasehold that is a perfectly safe proposition, from an investor’s point of view, it is a leasehold in Canberra, because there the Government is tho landlord, and, expressing the will -f Parliament, is about to spend millions of pounds in. establishing a capital city. That, policy cannot be departed from. There is provision .for it in the Constitution. The city will be there for all time, and large sums of money will be expended upon it. ‘ Yet when an endeavour was made recently to secure the assistance of the banking institutions in financing persons who wanted to erect their homes there, we found it impossible to do so.

Senator McHugh:

– Did the Commonwealth Bank refuse?

Senator PEARCE:

– It did, at first; but as the result of a series of negotiations, I am glad to say that it has’ now agreed to como in partially. It is now associated with the Federal Capital Commission, and, although it does not do the business directly, it is at the back of the commission.

Senator Needham:

– A real Commonwealth Bank would stand behind the people in the Northern Territory.

Senator PEARCE:

– There may be something in that contention. Very great difficulty was experienced in getting the Commonwealth Bank to come in, even to the present extent, in respect of building operations at Canberra. No other bank is willing to do anything, the reason given being that the land is only held under lease. I do not, however, use that as an argument in favour of departing from the leasehold system. I refer to it merely to show how much more difficult it would be for any person to obtain financial assistance in connexion with a town, leasehold in the Northern Territory having regard to the disadvantages that exist there. In these circum-.stances, we are asking Parliament to give us the opportunity, under certain conditions, to grant freeholds of agricultural and town lands in the Northern Territory. Provision is also made for another class of freehold in connexion with agriculture. There are some forms of cultivation in the Northern Territory, which, if they are to be successful, will necessitate the expenditure of large sums of capital before they can be made payable. We must have some form of land settlement proposal that will attract capitalists, and that will induce them not necessarily to settle on the land there, but to invest in it.

Senator Ogden:

– Is there no freehold at all in the Northern Territory at present?

Senator PEARCE:

– There are some freeholds that were granted by South Australia before the Commonwealth took over. None have been granted since, except in the fulfilment of contracts that were entered into before the Commonwealth act came into force. We are proposing in this measure, however, that larger grants of land shall be made available. They will not be sold as freeholds at the outset, but they will be convertible into freeholds on the company concerned carrying out improvement and cultivation conditions, and settling people on these blocks. To do that a company must have the assurance that a sufficient area will be made available to warrant the investment of its capital. In this connexion we have been guided by a law which was in existence in South Australia, but which we have modified in consonance with up-to-date conditions. Under these provisions we hope land settlement companies will be formed with the object of developing and cultivating the land, and bringing settlers to it; so that when these blocks are disposed of they will comply with the conditions under which we grant a freehold title. We hope to be able to attract capital by thus offering the prospect of a fair return on money invested, and to ensure satisfactory development and settlement of the land.

I think it only right .that I should give the Senate an outline of what is in the mind of the Government in regard to the conditions under which freeholds shall be granted if this power is given us. In the first place it is proposed to amend the Crown Lands Ordinance 1924-1925 so as to provide for the granting of freeholds in respect of -

  1. Town lands;

    1. Agricultural lands;
  2. Garden lands, and
  3. Tropical lands.

The term “garden lands” relates really to what is known as suburban land. The term is taken from the Western Australian land law in’ .which there is a similar provision under which land adjoining towns is subdivided into blocks of 5, 15 or 20 acres.

Senator Kingsmill:

– They are termed suburban blocks.

Senator PEARCE:

– Yes, but we intend to term them “ garden lands.” Under this provision, men working in townships may secure near by, small blocks on which orchard or gardening operations may be undertaken, and from which they can supplement their wages. It is proposed, under this measure, that such persons shall be able to obtain the freehold of such lands. The following is a summary of the proposed provisions of the amending ordinance : -

The- holder of any existing town lease, or of a town lease that may hereafter be granted, may, at any time, apply for a grant in fee-simple of the lands included in the lease, and the grant may be made, provided that, in addition to complying with the conditions of the lease, the lessee has -

  1. erected on the land a residence of the value of at least £50, within the first twelve months of the lease;
  2. resided on the land continuously for twelve months immediately prior to the application, and
  3. paid the purchase money and all moneys due in respect of the land.

The purchase price fixed by the Land Board shall not in any case be less than £5. Honorable senators will recognize that I am merely giving an epitome of the principles for which the ordinance will provide.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Why fix a minimum price ?

Senator PEARCE:

-It is quite low enough.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– It may be too high in some cases .

Senator PEARCE:

– I come now to agricultural lands, the conditions as to which may be summarized as follows : -

Agricultural lands consist of any lands within an area declared to be an agricultural area for the purposes of the proposed ordinance.

The holder of any existing agricultural lease, or of any agricultural lease that may hereafter be granted, may at any time apply for a grant in fee-simple of the lands, or portion of the lands, included in the lease.

A grant of the fee-simple may be made, provided that the applicant, in addition to complying with the conditions of the lease, has -

Securely fenced the land over which the fee-simple is required;

Cultivated not less than one-tenth of that land;

Stocked and kept stocked the land as directed by the Land Board;

Erected a residence and buildings on the land of the value of at least £50 ; and

Paid the purchase money and all moneys due in respect of the land.

Residential conditions are already provided in agricultural leases under the existing ordinance.

The purchase price fixed by the board shall in no case be less than 2s. 6d. per acre.

The maximum area of agricultural lands which may be granted in fee-simple to any one person is 1,280 acres of Class 1 lands, or 2,560 acres of Class 2 lands.

Where the lands included in an agricultural lease, or leases, include both Class 1 and Class 2 lands, the maximum area that may be granted in fee-simple shall be the maximum area that could be so granted if the lands were all of the same class. For this purpose 1 acre of Class 1 lands shall be deemed to be equivalent to 2 acres of Class 2 lands.

I have already referred to garden lands, in respect of which I supply the following particulars : -

Garden lands will consist of Crown lands, or dedicated or reserved lands within 10 miles of a town which have been declared by the Minister to be garden lands.

Leases of garden lands may be granted for vineyards, orchards, or gardens, but for no other purpose.

The maximum area of a lease of garden lands may not exceed 10 acres.

The holder of a lease of garden lands may at any time apply for a grant in fee simple of the land, or any portion of it. A grant of the fee-simple may be made, provided the lessee has -

Complied with the conditions of the lease ;

Fenced the land;

Cultivated, and kept under cultivation, at least one-third of the area for a period of not less than two years prior to the issue of the grant ;

Erected on the land a residence and buildings to the value of at least £50, and is permanently residing on the land; and

Has paid the purchase price, which shall be not less than 10s. per acre.

I shall now set out the broad conditions in regard to what are termed “ tropical lands “ - the larger areas which we hope companies will develop.

Tropical lands will consist of areas north of the 16th parallel of south latitude which have been declared by the Minister to be tropical lands for the purposes of the production of cotton or tropical products.

Any company incorporated or registered in the Northern Territory may, upon entering into an agreement in the prescribed form, hold an area of tropical lands not exceeding, in the aggregate, 20,000 acres, for a term of fourteen years.

Every such agreement shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and no transfer of any agreement shall be permitted by the Minister, except to a company, but not to a company which would thereby hold more than 20,000 acres of tropical lands.

If the company fails to comply with any of the terms, conditions, or provisions of the agreement, the Minister may resume the whole or any portion of the lands; and, on such resumption, all improvements, except tenant’s fixtures, upon the land resumed will become the property of the Crown.

The agreement will provide that the company shall use the land for the growth of cotton, or other tropical products ; and that it shall plant, during the first three years of the term, one twenty-fifth of the land, and keep cultivated the said one twenty-fifth of the land so planted; and during the last four years of the term it shall cultivate, and keep cultivated, at least one-fifth of the land.

The company will also be required, after the first seven years of occupation, to pay an annual rental of l£d. per acre per year, or portion of a year thereafter until the completion of the purchase, or other determination of the agreement.

The company will be entitled to a grant of the land in fee simple at any time during the term of the agreement, on payment of 2s. 6d. per acre; and, provided that it proves to the satisfaction of the Minister -

That it has spent 10s. per acre, in the aggregate, in cultivation and for necessary plant and machinery; that it has produced from the land 200 lb. weight of cotton, or tropical products of an equal amount in value, for every acre held under the agreement; and that it has cultivated one-third of the land.

Miscellaneous provisions of the amending ordinance provide, inter alia, that -

  1. A husband and wife shall not hold jointly in fee simple a greater area of land than the maximum area which may be granted to any one person under the ordinance.
  2. No person shall be entitled to hold in fee simple, for his own use and benefit, whether by grant from the Crown or by transfer from any person, a greater area of any lands than the maximum area which may be granted to him in the name of the Crown in pursuance of the ordinance.
  3. No alien shall be entitled to acquire any land in fee simple.
  4. No application from an alien for the fee simple of any land shall, therefore, be accepted unless it is accompanied by the statutory declaration of the alien that he has resided in the Northern Territory continuously during the period of twelve months immediately preceding the application and intends to apply within five years after the date of the application for a certificate of naturalization.
  5. The grant of any land in fee simple shall be subject to the following reservation: - “A reservation to the Crown of all minerals and mineral substances in or upon the land, including gold, silver, copper, tin, metals, ores, and substances containing metals, gems, precious stones, coal, shale, mineral oils, and valuable earths and substances, together with the right to authorize any persons to enter upon the land to mine, work for, win, recover, and remove them or any of them, and to do all things necessary or convenient for those purposes.”

If honorable senators will look at our naturalization law they will see that provision d practically determines the class of alien who shall be able to hold land in fee simple in the Northern Territory.

Senator Kingsmill:

– Must the 20,000 acres of land to which reference has been made be a continuous piece of the country ?

Senator PEARCE:

– Not necessarily. That is subject to agreement between the applicant and the Minister, and all such agreements must be laid before Parliament. This is a piece of experimental legislation. The position of the Northern Territory is such that it is essential that we should attract capital to develop it. If capital is to be attracted, conditions must be offered to capitalists which will give them some hope of a reasonable return.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– From what is this capitalist to get his return?

Senator PEARCE:

– From the cultivation of the land. I trust that the Senate will realize the necessity for giving these powers to the Government, in order that it shall be able to offer a land title in the Northern Territory similar to that which is obtainable in other parts of the Commonwealth. It is unfair that the Territory should be subject to a handicap, which does not apply to any other part of the Commonwealth.

Debate (on motion by Senator Needham) adjourned.

page 738

NORTHERN AUSTRALIA BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 3rd July (vide page 693), on motion by Senator Pearce -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Senator NEEDHAM:
“Western Australia

– - The administration of the Northern Territory by the Commonwealth Government for the last fourteen years has been a distinct failure. That may be ascribed, amongst other things, to the fact that vast tracts of country are held .by big companies which have made no attempt to develop it. Tho Leader of the Senate, in his secondreading speech, pointed out that the Government purposed placing 523,620 square miles of territory under the proposed commission. That area contains many big leaseholds, which include the following: - Bovril Australian Estates, 11,800 square miles; Forrest and Collins, 10,622 square miles; and Miller and Bradshaw, and the Crown Pastoral Company, 12,980 square miles. These four lessees hold 35,402 square miles between them. In other words, they have an area nearly as large as Hungary, which has an area of 35,654 square miles; or Portugal, which has 35,490 square miles; and larger than Austria, 30,766 square miles; Scotland, 30,405 square miles; Ireland, ‘32,580 square miles; or Tasmania, 26,215 square miles. They hold some of the very best land in the Territory, and I know of nothing whatever that they have done to develop it. Surely it is not impossible, under a proper system qf government, to develop 500,000 square miles of country. It is a pity that this bill did not precede, the measure we had before us some little time ago, which was designed to prevent the Crown from resuming Northern Territory leases for agricultural purposes for many years.

Senator Pearce:

– The honorable senator has fallen into the same error as thi! leader writer of the Age newspaper. We can resume any of those leases to-morrow for agricultural purposes.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I have not read the leading articles on this subject in the Age. I submit that the presence of these big capitalists in the Northern Territory has tended rather to retard than to develop, or even to assist development there. I am wondering whether Western

Australia and Queensland will accept the proposals that are made in the bill for agreements to be made enabling the Commonwealth to take over contiguous territory. Queensland, I feel, will look askance at the suggestion that the commission should take over the control of the rich eastern portion of the Barkly Tablelands; and I certainly do not know whether the authorities in Western Australia will agree with the proposal that it should control that part of Western Australia that lies north of the 20th parallel of south latitude. It might have been better if the Government had postponed the introduction of this measure until it had consulted the states concerned.

Senator Thompson:

– Is it not a good proposal even if the other states do not come ‘ in ?

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I shall come to that point later. The Minister, in his second-reading speech, said that the bill wa3 but a prelude to the creation of a new state or states. We should be very careful in this matter. I am endeavouring to make up my mind whether or not I should support the proposal for the appointment of a commission as outlined in the bill, or whether I should suggest, in committee, an amendment in the direction of establishing a provisional government for the Northern Territory.

Senator Ogden:

– There are not enough people living there yet.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– That difficulty could be overcome. We are told that community of interests is to be observed in the territory to be controlled by the commission. I was glad that the Minister stressed that point, because community of interests is essential fo<r the success of any scheme. Whilst I admit that the bill is well drafted, and that the scheme suggests an honest attempt on the part of the Government to grapple with this allimportant proposal, I believe that the measure has its defects. The commission to be appointed will not be free from political control.

Senator Duncan:

– Does the honorable senator suggest that the commission should be entirely free from political control ?

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I do. The Minister pointed out that one of the disabilities under which the Administrator of the Northern Territory labours is that he has to refer so many matters of administration to Melbourne. Under the bill the commission will suffer the same disability.

Senator Duncan:

– But any disabilities will relate to policy, not to administration.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– Clause 17 provides -

  1. Subject to this act, the powers of the commission shall extend to the following matters in the relation to the development of so much oF the Territory as is situated north of Hie twentieth parallel of south latitude (in this act referred to as “ the prescribed part of the Territory.”).

It then goes on to mention certain public works necessary for the development of the Territory. Clause 19 refers to the preparation of a scheme for the development of the Territory in a particular direction, and clause 21 deals with the preliminary investigation of proposed railway routes. The commission, I am afraid, will be handicapped from the outset in its efforts to develop that great hinterland to which the Minister referred, and which, we know, comprises such a vast tract of wonderful country. This measure is really an acknowledgment of past failures. The Minister admitted that failure hitherto has been due to the absence of satisfactory means of communication, and the necessity to refer certain administrative matters to the central authority in Melbourne. Unfortunately the bill perpetuates the latter disability. What can be more important in any proposal to develop the Northern Territory than efficient means of transport - good roads and good railways? If the commission, from its future seat of government at Newcastle Waters, determines upon the route of a certain developmental railway, and authorizes a survey, the entire proposal must be referred to the central authority before the actual work can be undertaken. The commission should have conferred upon it greater powers than are proposed. Why should it be obliged to report to the central authority before it can undertake developmental works ?

Senator Ogden:

– The honorable senator does not wish the commission to be in the position of a dictator ?

Senator NEEDHAM:

– No, but I am emphasizing the disability which, according to the Minister, constitutes the chief stumbling block to progress under the present system of control. We should attempt to do more with the Northern Territory than we have done in the past. I am not blaming any government for previous failures. I must bear my share of the responsibility, because I have been a member of this Senate for many years. And since I shall have to share some of the responsibility for the future, I am endeavouring to point to what I regard as the defects in the bill now before the Senate. I have no doubt that many other honorable senators will agree that the bill is not without its defects. I said a moment ago that, instead . of a commission, I would prefer a provisional government on the lines suggested by Mr. Theodore, the exPremier of Queensland. Perhaps I should say that I prefer his ‘proposal to the bill. Mr. Theodore, speaking at the opening of the Kyogle-South Brisbane railway in January this year, said -

There would be millions of people ultimately in the Northern Territory, and not merely in the Northern Territory as we knew it, but also in the northern portion of Western Australia. It was his firm belief that it would be a wise policy to create a new state.

Senator Reid:

– Mr. Theodore said that he would like to be “boss” of it.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– He would not make a bad “boss” of it, if “boss” is the term to use.

Senator Reid:

– I agree with that.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I hold no brief for Mr. Theodore. I am merely putting his proposal before the Senate, and comparing it with that of the Government. Later on he amplified his statements, as the following extract indicates: -

Asked what was his object in suggesting a provisional government for five years - not an elected government - for the initial development of the new Territory under his scheme, as propounded at the turning of the first sod of the South Brisbane to Kyogle railway on Saturday. Mr. Theodore said that in the area which it was proposed should be created into a great new northern state there were only about 4,000 Europeans at present, so it would be seen that there was not sufficient population to have parliamentary government. ?et responsible government was necessary for the inception of the state. Therefore, he thought that it would be essential to have a provisional government for five years to carry out developmental work, and to arrange for the introduction of population. At the end of five years it would be reasonable to expect that there would be a sufficient number of people in the new state to justify the election of a Parliament. The constitution of the new state would provide for those evolutionary steps. The settlement of the area, of course, would have to be based on a migration scheme. He thought that the state would begin as propitiously as Queensland had done, and it should progress to the same extent. He thought that the Commonwealth Government should grant a loan of £20,000,000 for the initiation and early development of the scheme. This money would be only in the nature of a loan to the new state.

Senator Pearce:

– What is the difference between what Mr. Theodore calls a provisional government, that is to say, a non-elective government, and the commission proposed by the Government?

Senator NEEDHAM:

– Although Mr. Theodore did not enter into details in the statement I have just read, I think that he had at the back of his mind the idea that the provisional government would be given carte blanche to go on with its job.

Senator Sir Thomas Glasgow:

– Where would it get its money?

Senator NEEDHAM:

- Mr. Theodore mentioned that the Commonwealth Government could give it a loan.

Senator Pearce:

– That is also proposed for the commission.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I am not committing myself to Mr. Theodore’s scheme. I am putting before the Senate alternative schemes so that by the time the bill leaves us it will be the best we can contrive to make it.

Senator Pearce:

– We have to be sure that Mr. Theodore’s is an alternative scheme. I do not see any difference between it and what is proposed in the bill.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– It proposes a different form of control. If a provisional government were appointed, and had money loaned to it, and if at the end of five or six years a responsible government could be set up we should find that more would be done for the development of the country than could possibly be done by a commission with restricted powers during the same period.

Senator Reid:

– Where does Mr. Theodore’s scheme differ from the scheme proposed in the bill, except, perhaps, in the matter of the suggested loan ?

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– It is not so much a question of lending money; the main thing is authority to spend whatever money is loaned.

Senator H Hays:

– The authority the bill proposes to give the commission is very wide.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– It is also in some respects very restricted. The provisions I have already quoted indicate that, in all great works of development, roads or railways, the commission will be handicapped and hobbled. It will not be able to take one step without seeking authority from the Central Government, be it at Melbourne or Canberra.

Senator Kingsmill:

– That will mean that it will have to seek authority from the Federal Parliament. Surely that is fair!

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I know that in the past authority has always been sought from the Federal Parliament, but what progress has been made in the Northern Territory during the fourteen years it has been under the control of the Commonwealth? The need to refer everything to this Parliament has not helped in the advancement or development of the Territory. As indicated by Senator Pearce, whether we have a commission or a provisional government in control, the importance of Darwin and Wyndham, in matters relating to shipping or aerial communication, cannot be underestimated. During the last ten years aviation has made remarkable strides, and it is a wise step on the part of the Government to, take the matter of aerial transport into consideration.

The bill provides that the administration of that portion of the Territory which lies to the south of the 20th parallel of latitude is to be carried on from Melbourne, and that the administrator is, if possible, to be a medical man. That would be an excellent combination. But I cannot understand the need for separating the administration of the southern portion from that of the northern portion of the Territory. I am wondering why a line of demarcation has been drawn. If it is proposed to place under a commission the northern portion of the great area committed to the care of the Commonwealth, why not give the commission control of the whole of the Territory, including what is to be known as Central Australia, and any territory which may be handed over by the states of Western Australia and Queensland?

Senator Pearce in his speech said;

The commission will have control of its own funds, and will be able to carry out an uninterrupted policy of development on the lines approved by Parliament.

I have just referred to what I regard as the weakness of the whole hill, the clauses of which set out the powers of the commission. Whatever the commission may determine upon in the way of development it will be interrupted at every stage from the time the survey is made until the work is commenced. And if any programme of work is likely to cost more than was originally estimated, the commission will have again to refer to the Federal Parliament for funds, and so the whole business we have been carrying out for the last fourteen years will still continue. Part III. provides for agreements with the states. I dare say that by now the Governments of Queensland and Western Australia will have had the contents of the measure before them, and I shall be interested to learn their views upon the proposal that they should hand over to the control of the proposed commission portions of their states contiguous to the Northern Territory.

Clause 44 provides -

There shall be an advisory council for North Australia to advise the government resident in relation to any matter affecting North Australia (but not including any matter relating to the powers of the commission, or any matter under the control of the commission), including advice as to the making of new ordinances or the repeal or amendment of existing ordinances.

Clause 50 provides -

There shall be an advisory council for Central Australia to advise the government resident in relation to any matter affecting Central Australia, including advice as to the making of new ordinances or the repeal or amendment of existing ordinances.

Thus, in North Australia, there will be not only a commission, but also an advisory council, while in Central Australia, there will be a government resident and another advisory council. I think the machinery is clumsy. I think it would be better to eliminate these advisory councils, and put the whole Territory under one commission, or, if you like, one provisional government. I referred a little while ago to Mr. Theodore’s suggestion, but there is another alternative scheme. There could be a. provisional council, consisting of a number of per sons - perhaps two or three - elected by the people of the territory that it is proposed to control and administer, and a similar number nominated by the Government, with a government resident as chairman. It must not be forgotten that, concurrently with the taking over of certain territory, a number of citizens also will be taken over. We should consider their rights, in addition to the development of the Territory. In committee, consideration might be; given to the alternative that I have mentioned. Senator Pearce, by interjection, said that Mr. Theodore’s scheme did not provide for an elective body. I admit the truth of that. Will the Minister consider the appointment of a provisional council, partly elective and partly nominative, with the government resident as chairman, and the seat of government at Newcastle Waters? That would be a central position for the railway which will eventually reach Alice Springs, and also for the trade and commerce of the eastern tableland and the Victoria River country.

The observations which I have made upon the measure have not been dictated by a spirit of antagonism to it. I realize its importance. I realize the necessity -for making another attempt to win from that great northern area, al! the good that is in it. I realize its vastness, and its possibilities in a pastoral, an. agricultural, and a mineral sense. With in the area there are great mineral deposits. There is the hinterland, to which the Minister (Senator Pearce) referred, which offers great possibilities in respect to tropical agriculture. This is a big question, and the success or failure of the Territory will depend largely upon the manner in which we deal with it. I shall give the bill general support at this stage, but in committee I may suggest one of the alternatives that I have mentioned. I think that the structure proposed will prove top-heavy. I am very much afraid that the work of the commission will not be for the benefit of Australia, or make for the development of that great northern area with which it deals.

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

.- I desire to offer my congratulations to the Minister (Senator Pearce) for the clear manner in which he delivered his second - reading speech on this bill. I was, however, somewhat disappointed with his proposal. For a considerable time we were looking forward to the announcement that he proposed making regarding a fresh policy for the development of the Northern Territory. Those who have had the opportunity to see some of the Northern Territory are naturally interested in its future development. I listened very carefully to the Minister’s speech, and during the week end I have closely studied the bill. I am not enamoured of it in its present form. More than half of the Minister’s speech was devoted to a recital of the many disadvantages under which the residents of the Northern Territory live. He referred to the control that is exercised by different departments from various head- quarters’, and mentioned that there is only one mail a fortnight from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs, taking ten days to do the journey. Those, and the various other disadvantages under which the Territory suffers, are well known to honorable senators. If it lay in their power, honorable senators would endeavour to improve the conditions. Three or four years; ago a parliamentary party, of which 1 was a member, traversed Central Australia, and later reported to the then Minister for Home and Territories (Mr. Poynton) the disadvantages connected with the camel mail to Alice Springs. We urged him to substitute a camel buggy mail, because of the discomfort that waa suffered by women who had to travel by the .means of transport provided. We also referred to the disadvantages of control by different departments from various places. Despite the fact that nearly four years have elapsed, the present Minister says that those disadvantages still exist, and that no measures have been taken to relieve the inconveniences and hardships that are caused. J hope that the residents of the Northern Territory will, not in future have to wait so long for necessary reforms. The Minister knows that in Western Australia great inconveniences are suffered by those who live in the out-back portions of the state. Similar conditions exist also in Queensland. Not long ago I visited the town of Birdsville, in far western Queensland. The nearest telephone line is about 300 miles distant from that town. With the size of Australia, and its present population, many of the existing disadvantages cannot be avoided. They will continue until the population has been largely increased and the land more closely settled. If people can secure good land under more congenial conditions in close proximity to the large centres of population and conveniently situated in regard to ports and harbours we cannot expect them to go into the more remote parts. The history of land settlement in Queensland is that in tha beginning men held huge areas, until they were driven out by the squatter, whose place in turn was taken by a number of selectors. Evolution in the Northern Territory will be along similar lines. It is our duty to do all that we can to expedite the settlement of land in the remote portions of the continent. One of the best means of doing that is to make the conditions of living more comfortable and provide adequate transport facilities. The bill does not propose to give to the commission greater power than could be exercised by a capable administrator. It i3 unfortunate that in the past the Administrator of the Northern Territory has been given very little, power. The present Administrator, Mr. Urquhart, practically occupies the position of a glorified caretaker; before he can do anything to advance the development of the Northern Territory he must refer the matter to Melbourne, although he lives in the Territory and is in close touch with its affairs. Neither he nor his predecessor had the opportunity to put in operation any new ideas for settlement because of the hampering effect of control from Melbourne. Instead of having one administrator the Minister proposes to appoint three, whose total salaries will be £6,000 per annum. I do not think that the -Northern Territory will be greatly benefited by adding to the already very large number of public servants there. The number will be bound to grow under this* scheme. Each administrator will require his own secretary and staff. In addition, there will be a government resident in the north and another in the south, each of whom will require a staff.. The experience of Australia during the last fifteen or twenty years has been that when a new department is created it very quickly gathers together a considerable staff. The Commonwealth Public Service has grown beyond the expectations of the most pessimistic. We were told at the inception of federation that various governmental activities were to be consolidated’ and that there would be no in- crease in the cost of administration. We find, however, that the cost has grown to an alarming extent, and the expenditure entailed under this proposal will further increase our financial responsibility. The Government would be rendering a greater service to the Northern Territory if, on the expiration of the present Administrator’s term it appointed a strong, capable officer with the powers which the present Administrator, and others who have preceded him, have been seeking for years.

Senator Pearce:

– Can the honorable senator mention any power which the Administrator has sought and which has not been given?

Senator FOLL:

– At the moment, I cannot; but I have had conversations with the present Administrator, and with some of those who have preceded him, and all have mentioned the disabilities under which they have laboured. I can supply the right honorable gentleman with instances if he so desires.

Senator Pearce:

– I should like to have them.

Senator FOLL:

– After my return from the Northern Territory I discussed the development of the Northern Territory very fully with- the then Minister for Home and Territories (Mr. Poynton), who, until certain facts were brought under his notice by me, held practically the same opinions on this matter as the present Minister . A perusal of the bill will show that the powers to be given to the proposed board are very limited. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Senator Needham) referred to the question of railway construction. I should like the Minister to direct my attention to any portion of the bill in which greater powers will be conferred upon the proposed commission than are exercised by the present Administrator in the matter of railway construction. Under this measure, the commission will have to communicate with the Ministerial head of the department and submit recommendations in connexion with the building of any railway.

Senator Kingsmill:

– Is not that wise?

Senator FOLL:

– I am not saying that it is not, because Parliament should retain control over expenditure. I am merely pointing out that it is unnecessary to appoint a commission of three to communicate with the Minister when that can at present be done by the Administrator.

Senator Guthrie:

– The Administrator may not have the necessary knowledge.

Senator FOLL:

– The Administrator for the time being should be able to obtain the requisite information before making a recommendation. Honorable senators are aware that, under the control of Sir William McGregor and, later, of Judge Murray, Papua, where the difficulties are, in a sense, much greater than in the Northern Territory, owing to the fact that hundreds of thousands of natives have to be dealt with, has been well administered. The administrative work there has been satisfactorily carried’ out by one officer, with the assistance of a council consisting of the Governor, the heads of departments, and, I believe, a citizen representative. In that case it has not been necessary to appoint an unwieldy and expensive body, such as is proposed in this instance. It will be generally admitted that the bulk of the land in the Northern Territory consists of light-carrying cattle country. That in the Barkly Tablelands ‘is different from the land in the southern portion of the Northern Territory and to that extending to the far west. In the vicinity of Alice Springs, there is a large area which, under irrigation, could be used f or raising agricultural products ; but irrigation is a tremendous problem in central Australia. Alice Springs, for instance, even with railway communication, is many hundreds’ of miles from any large consuming centre. Until the population in that locality has considerably increased, there is very little likelihood of irrigation products raised in that part of the country being successfully marketed. The country between Alice Springs and Newcastle Waters consists of cattle land of a lightcarrying capacity, and some of the most optimistic settlers in the Northern Territory admit that, even with an improved water supply, the country, under normal conditions, would not carry more than two or three beasts to the square mile. Generally speaking, droughts are unknown in the Barkly Tablelands and the Minister stated that,, as a result of the appointment of the proposed commission, he was hopeful of a prosperous sheepgrowing centre being established there. Is there anything in this bill to make the Barkly Tablelands more suitable for sheep-raising than at present? There is an absence of streams, and no trees from which sheep can obtain necessary shade or protection. Notwithstanding the fact mentioned by the Minister that, when he visited the Barkly Tablelands everything was prosperous, although there was a drought in Western Queensland, experiments have shown that it is impossible to obtain here anything like the percentage of lambs obtained in Western Queensland. If the Government is really anxious to open this Territory, they should, instead of appointing an expensive commission, assist in the construction of the railways from Western Queensland to the Northern Territory. One of the most essential factors in the satisfactory development of the Barkly Tablelands is the cheap carriage of goods, wire netting, bore-casing, and boring plant generally. The appointment of a board of three commissioners in place of an Administrator will not provide the settlers on the Barkly Tablelands, where the wild dogs are bad, with the means of obtaining wire-netting at a cheaper rate, trees to ensure shade and protection, or artesian water where none is available. These conditions are well known to the Minister, and if the Government is really desirous of opening up this rich tract of country, it should do something of a practical nature. Had a railway been in operation in Western Queensland during the last two or three droughts, thu service so rendered to pastoralists would have been great. The value of the sheep lost in consequence of the dry conditions would have been more than sufficient to meet the construction of such a line. A drought is not usually experienced in all portions of Australia at the same time, and if adequate railway facilities were provided, pastoralists would be able to move their stock from place to place, and thus avoid very heavy losses. If consideration is given to the settlers in those portions of the Territory where the conditions are better, development will extend in such a way that it will not be long before there will be a demand for the country of a lighter cattle-carrying capacity. One of the reasons given by the Minister for appointing (his commission was that it would administer the whole of the Northern Territory, and also, he hoped, cer- tain parts of Western Australia and Queensland. We have no information as to whether either of these states is -willing to give the proposed commission jurisdiction over parts of its territory. It would have been far better had the Government delayed introducing the bill until it was in a position to indicate the attitude of Western Australia and Queensland on this matter. I understand that it has been submitted to them, but that they have not yet had time to consider it. Not only have they had no opportunity to discuss it, bub honorable senators are in the same position. The Minister referred to the valuable mineral resources of the Territory. Every one who knows anything of northern Australia is aware that it contains very rich mineral country; but is the creation of this commission, with its necessarily heavy overhead expenses, likely to assist in any way to develop it? One has only to go as far as Cloncurry, in Queensland, to find some of the richest copper fields in the world closed down on account of the high cost of production. When I, with other honorable members of this Parliament, visited the Northern Territory not long ago, we spent some time at Hatch’s Creek, and inspected the wolfram deposits there. These also were not being worked, for the reason that wolfram had dropped to such a low price that it was impossible to work them at a profit. At that time wolfram was being exported from China for £20 a ton. In order to make the Frew River deposits pay, it would be necessary to get from £100 to £110 a, ton for wolfram; If it is impossible to work profitably the rich copper country at Cloncurry, right on a railway line, and only 500 miles from the seaboard, it seems to me that it is ridiculous to suggest that the appointment of three highly-paid commissioners to administer the Northern Territory will do anything to assist to develop the mineral resources there. Some of the provisions in the bill seem to be contradictory. Clause 17 provides that the commission shall be responsible for the maintenance and operation of railways, the construction and maintenance of roads, the erection of telegraph and telephone lines, water boring and conservation, ports and harbours, and so on. Clause 18, however, appears to take away the power which clause 17 gives. It reads -

  1. As soon as practicable after its appointment the commission shall prepare and submit to the Minister a scheme for the development of the prescribed part of the Territory, together with information and explanations in detail in relation thereto.
  2. The Minister may at any time require the commission to supply further information or explanations in relation to the scheme, and the commission shall furnish such information or explanations accordingly.
  3. If the Minister approves of the whole or part of the scheme, the commission shall take all necessary steps to give effect to the whole or part of the scheme as so approved.
  4. If the Minister declines to approve any part of the scheme, it shall be the duty of the commission to prepare and supply a fresh scheme.

It appears to me, therefore, that thecommission will have no more power than the present. Administrator has. In any case, it is quite apparent that if the commission is appointed it will he subject to considerable ministerial control. I do not say that that is altogether a bad thing, for I have been somewhat adverse to the handing over of our powers of government to boards in the way that has been done during the last few years. “We have just had an example of what happens from that practice. Admiral Clarkson, on behalf of the Shipping Board, has signed an agreement in connexion with the shipping dispute. I am glad that he, and the unions, did so. It is a very good thing, although their actions have been received with mixed feelings by certain sections of the community. But the fact that the Shipping Board could act in this way shows to what an extent we have given away our powers of government.

Senator Thompson:

– Senator Heedham wishes to give this proposed commission even greater powers.

Senator Pearce:

– And Senator Foll wishes to give the Administrator greater powers than he now has, although, he is unwilling to give them to the commission.

SenatorFOLL. - I do not think that it is necessary to give the commission such wide powers as those proposed by Senator Needharn. Until the Territory is maintaining a sufficient population, and paying sufficient taxation, to warrant extending to it governmental powers similar to those enjoyed by the various states, it is necessary for us to exercise control over it. I can find nothing in the bill, nor has the Minister given any reason, to satisfy me that we should substitute for the present Administrator a highly-paid commission. I am open to conviction, but so far I have not been convinced. I object to the proposal to take away from the Public Works Committee the duty of inquiring into the construction of all public works in the Territory the estimated cost of which is over £25,000. The Public “Works Committee was deliberately constituted by this Parliament for the purpose of carefully scrutinizing the proposed expenditure of public moneys, and I have no hesitation in saying that it has saved the country many thousands of pounds. I think the Minister will agree with me when I say that it has justified over and over again the expenditure upon it. It has found no difficulty, in recent years, in inquiring into the expenditure of public money on proposed works in the Northern Territory which have been referred to it for consideration.When occasion requires it, the committee can divide itself into two sub-committees, one of which can continue necessary work in the south, while the other travels to the north, to do what is necessary there. That has been done frequently. I can see no reason why we should discontinue the practice. The Government proposes to create two new states in the Territory. “When one considers that the southern boundary of the Territory is something like 1,000 miles from Darwin, one has no difficulty in realizing that the people in the north are likely to be quite out of touch with residents in the south. I have frequently heard it said by the latter that they are never given a chance to express their views on public matters, but are practically ruled, and always outvoted, by the people of Darwin. In view of these circumstances I commend the Minister for endeavouring to give the southern residents more voice in public affairs than they at present enjoy.

Senator Pearce:

– I am pleased that the honorable senator can find something good in the bill.

SenatorFOLL. - The Leader of the Senate should remember that the sweetest plums are always saved until the end. May I remind him also that just as in our boyhood days we were admonished by our parents, and told that it was for our good, so I am endeavouring to admonish the Government in the hope that it will benefit. I am sorry, however, that it is proposed to call the new states North Australia and Central Australia. As we already have a West Australia and a South Australia, I feel that confusion will occur if this proposal is accepted. I am sorry that we have not been able to reserve the name Australia for the whole of the continent, and to find other names for the various states. Honorable senators know that the Government of the United States of America was able to describe its various states by euphonious names, such as Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and so on. I am sure that we could find some other and more satisfactory names for these new states. It has been suggested to me that, to identify the present Government with the proposal, this portion of Australia might be called “ Pearceiana, or “ Bruceiana.”

Senator Pearce:

– Why not “ Polliana “?

Senator Crawford:

– Or “Wilsonia.”

Senator FOLL:

– The suggestion of the Honorary Minister is a happy one. Perhaps, in view of the fact that the Country party in South Australia has treated Senator Wilson so badly he may, after the next election, be sent up to Alice Springs to be first governor of “ Wilsonia.” But, to be serious, I think we should be prepared to see very little progress in agricultural settlement for a considerable period. We may as well be candid. The experiment in the Borroloola River , district, during the time when Dr. Gilruth was Administrator, was a failure. We know also what happened in connexion with the Mataranka experimental farm. That country is absolutely unsuitable for sheep. I believe, however, that the Minister has been more earnest in his desire to do something for the Northern Territory than any other Minister for Home and Territories since the Territory was handed over to the Commonwealth by South Australia. His work is recognized by all who are in a position to express an opinion, but I think he was somewhat hasty in presenting a measure to set up expensive and bulky machinery for the development of the Northern Territory. If the Government vested a greater measure of authority in the Administrator, and if it appointed the right man - it should not be impossible to obtain a man experienced in tropical conditions if the pay is adequate - the development of the Territory would receive a greater impetus than is likely under a commission. Our experience of commissioners has not been such as to warrant a continuance of the policy of substituting three public servants for one. I hope that, when the bill is in committee, careful attention will be given to the points which I have raised. I can assure the Minister that I recognize fully, and appreciate highly, his desire to help forward the great Territory which he has been administering for the last two years.

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

– Unlike Senator Foll, I have not the advantage of personal knowledge of the Northern Territory, so I can only look at the proposal from a business point of view, and deal with it in a general way. It seems to me, however, that it represents an effort to bring about, in the Northern Territory, a reform that is long overdue. Any one who reads the last report of the Administrator must realize that there has been a lamentable lack of progress in the financial year just closed. This is a strong argument against further delay in grappling with the problem. The time is ripe for a forward move, and I congratulate the Minister for having introduced the bill. It should make for greater efficiency and, bv attracting more people to the Territory, give greater encouragement to private enterprise, withOUt which no country can progress. There is. another aspect which should not be overlooked. If, as the result of the proposal now before the Senate, we can do something to people the waste spaces in the Northern Territory, we shall place our defences on a better basis, because the Territory in its present state is, as the Minister so aptly remarked, the Achilles heel of the Commonwealth. It is our most vulnerable part. Therefore, if we can attract population in sufficient numbers to that portion of Australia, we shall, to that extent, strengthen our defences there. Another important principle in the bill is a recognition of the necessity for subdivision of the vast areas of this continent. In this case, however, the question is approached from an angle different from that from which I and others have been accustomed to view it. The bill provides for the subdivision of a large area with a small population, whereas the idea to which we are accustomed is the subdivision of large areas where population and development justify their cutting up in the interest of, not only the locality itself, but also the original state of which it forms a part. Although the difference is as stated, I venture to predict that neither Queensland nor Western Australia will consent to come into this scheme; and I hope the right honorable the Minister will lend his powerful assistance to the rapidly growing body of earnest men in this country who are desirous of removing from the states to the Commonwealth the power of consent to subdivision when the conditions for such are ripe. His statement that the Commonwealth must not shirk its responsibilities may, I think, be regarded as a good omen. It has been stated that neither the Queensland nor Western Australian Government has as yet intimated whether it proposes to surrender territory and share in the benefits of the scheme. The proposal standing by itself is quite sufficient. We should deal with the Northern Territory regardless of whether, subsequently, portion of the contiguous States of Queensland and Western Australia are incorporated. The Minister suggested that the inclusion of certain areas from those states would ensure community of interests. I suggest that, even without their inclusion, there will be community of interests.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– What is the population in those portions of Queensland and Western Australia?

Senator Pearce:

– About 4,000 in all.

Senator THOMPSON:

– I know that for a long time there has been no development in the north-western portion of Queensland. Nevertheless, I think that those State Governments will prefer to remain outside the scheme, and preserve their own territory. As a matter of f act, Queensland stands to gain more by remaining out. There is no suitable port in the Queensland territory on the Gulf of Carpentaria, so Queensland will naturally endeavour to push out its railways to get a share of the Northern Territory trade, and at the same time reap any resultant benefit from the development of its western country; I do not know much about Western Australia’, but I should say that, on general principles, it is not at all likely that that state will consent to surrender any portion of its territory. I should like to impress on the Minister and the Senate the necessity for the present power of consent to subdivision to be transferred from the states to the Commonwealth. It is unthinkable that any’ Premier of a state will voluntarily give up part of his kingdom. The Minister spoke hopefully of the future of Darwin. I agree with him that under this scheme Darwin should have a great future. I cannot help thinking what a wonderful opportunity was missed 50 years ago, when Sir Thomas McIlwraith, one of Australia’s most far-seeing statesmen, introduced a proposal in the Queensland Parliament for the construction, on the land grant principle, of a transcontinental railway from Port Darwin to Port Alma. Sir Samuel Griffith, who was opposed to Sir Thomas McIlwraith in those days, frustrated the scheme by objecting that it was wrong for any Government to barter the birthright of its people in exchange for a railway. It was absurd to suggest that the land would not be put to any use. If that scheme had been accepted Darwin, from the point of view of development, would have been years ahead of its present position, and the scheme would also have meant a great deal to Queensland. I think that the bill will do much for the Northern Territory and Darwin,its port Government by commission is on trial in Washington, and, other parts of America, also at Canberra. Therefore it seems to me very fitting that we should try the system in Northern; Australia. As I understand thatthe commission will have veryfull administrative powers, I cannot see the need for also having a government resident

Senator Foll:

– The honorable senator is finding the machinery a bit bulky.

Senator THOMPSON:

– I am. I am not accepting the bill in its entirety. I am mentioning what I consider a few weaknesses, which I hope to have the opportunity of rectifying in committee. There will be a commission of three, which number will be increased if the. adjoining states come into the scheme, and the commissioners will be paid considerable remunerations. But ifwe also appoint a government resident there will be the possibility of a clash between him and the commissioners. The commission being, as it were, a board of directors, with full power to do things, subject only to the Minister and this Parliament, a government resident will be like the fifth wheel on a coach. The advisory council is to furnish advice to the government resident. In my opinion, we should not incur the expense of appointing a government resident, but should allow the commissioners to benefit by that advice. I differ from Senator Needham with regard to the value of work which may be undertaken without parliamentary .sanction. The amount stipulated, £25,000, is a fairly large sum, and I think that before any expenditure approaching that magnitude is undertaken parliamentary approval should be obtained. No doubt, when a recommendation is put forward by a commission which knows its business, that approval will be easily obtained.. I do not believe in giving away the authority of Parliament in the way Senator Needham has suggested. I do not gather that the commission is to control land rents.

Senator Pearce:

– It will do so. The commission will control all moneys received under any ordinance. Land rents are collected under an ordinance.

Senator THOMPSON:

– I notice that the commission is to be given one month’s notice of any legal action instituted against it, but I do not see any reason why it should be favoured in this respect. I dare say Senator Pearce will have a complete answer for whatever criticism I have offered. On the whole, I think that the bill is a commendable effort to bring about increased development in the Northern Territory, and I heartily support its general principles.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– Senator Pearce concluded an instructive and informative second-reading speech by expressing the hope that the bill would be received sympathetically. I can assure him that although there may be strong differences of opinion between the Opposition and the Government in respect of some measures which have been introduced, one can approach the bill now before us with a fairly open mind, because how best to develop and people the Northern Territory is a problem that must be faced sooner or later, and the sooner the better for the people of Australia. The Northern Territory can be well said to be Australia’s empty cradle. It has a mere handful of people in an area which is nearly six times that of Victoria. For about a decade and a half the administration of this lonesome land has been entrusted to the Commonwealth. “When it was first taken over from South Australia in 1911 hopes ran high that at last something substantial would be done to advance its progress. But so far the efforts made have been more or less resultless and wasteful. It has often been said that the “ round the compass “ method of dealing with the Territory which has hitherto been adopted is not likely to bring about real progress. The problem is a big one, which must be tackled in a big way by big men with big ideas. Salaries are a mere bagatelle. If we can secure the services of men with the proper qualifications, and with ripened experience and judgment, to attempt to do something which has not yet been attempted or done in the Northern Territory - if they are not hampered or harassed, but are encouraged and assisted, as they should be - I am sure they will bring about real progress, and justify their appointment. We are told by some that the Territory is a barren waste. That is not correct. We are told by others that it is full of possibilities, and I share that opinion, because I am optimistic in regard to its future. “ Then why,” some will ask, “has progress not been made there?” The reasons are not far to seek. The north is suffering to-day, as it has been for a long period of years, from intense isolation. The Minister mentioned the period that elapses between the forwarding of a letter from Melbourne to Darwin, and the receiving of a reply. Any one who doubts hia statement will find complete confirmation of it in a letter forwarded by the editor of the Northern Territory Times to Mr. Waddell, M.L.C., of New South Wales. Mr. Waddell has gone to considerable trouble to prepare a most informative pamphlet on what he considers to be the best route of a certain railway. He has forwarded his pamphlet, not only to honorable senators, but also to the editor of the Northern Territory Times. This is the reply he received from Darwin -

Your pamphlet was posted to rae early in -April, probably too late to catch the boat which left Sydney about 2nd April; it reached me on 15th May.. The return mail carrying this letter “will leave Darwin on 7th June, and should reach you about 21st June. That is three months to get a reply to your brief note to me, for which many thanks.

Senator Foll:

– That state of affairs could be altered if Burns, Philp and Company would slightly alter the sailing days of their steamers.

Senator FINDLEY:

– Even if the time could be shortened in the way the honorable senator suggests, I think that progress can be furthered in the Northern Territory only by having more up-to-date methods of delivering mails. The Territory is suffering from intense isolation and the absence of essential needs, such as railways, roads, and water supplies.

Senator Reid:

– And aeroplanes.

Senator FINDLEY:

– No doubt, an aeroplane service will be provided later on. We know that the Territory has some of the finest navigable water-ways in Australia, and that it contains subartesian waters. We also know that people engaged in the pastoral industry there endure great hardship, and it is recorded that at times the wells are not kept in proper order. A short but a very interesting report was furnished to the Government by Mr. Steffanson, who was commissioned to tour portions of the Northern Territory. His opinion is that water is of more importance to the Territory than either gold or oil, and that the exploitation of the water resources should precede the development of the mineral wealth. I take it that the commission will have to consider that all-important matter ?

Senator Pearce:

– Yes.

Senator FINDLEY:

- Mr. Steffanson in his report said -

I should judge that in the country covered by our actual visit, and our inquiries, the number of cattle and of settlers could be multiplied by at least four over the present numbers if. wells were found, and it seems likely that wells can be found at such distances from each other - as to enable stockmen to occupy nearly or quite the entire area.

He also referred to the absence of telephonic communication. Why matters that are so small from a’ departmental point of view, but which are so important to those who are living in the Territory, are not attended to promptly, passes my comprehension. Mr. Stteffanson said -

There was rejoicing at stations far, in both directions, from Crown Point when they learned that Lord Stradbroke had broken down near there, for they thought the incident would call the attention of the Government forcibly to the need of a telephone, not primarily, of course, for ordinary travellers, although they would find it convenient, but for the drovers passing with their mobs of cattle who need to notify their approach in advance, so that tanks can be filled to be ready for them, and also to be warned if any well is out of order, so that they can turn back at discretion or perhaps rest their stock to prepare them for a forced march past the temporarily unavailable water supply.

That is an all-important matter, yet apparently for many years nothing has been done to meet the requirements of those who are engaged in this industry. Mr. Steffanson further stated -

We were told by Mr. Summerfield, who lives there- at Crown Point - that the distance from his house to the transcontinental telegraph line is only about 200 yards; that he had petitioned for a telephone more than two years ago, and that he would be glad to do the work connected with it for nothing, or even to pay, if necessary.

So far the all-important matters of roads, railways, telegraphic, and telephonic communication and water conservation have not been seriously considered. The Commonwealth took over the Northern Territory in 1911. The total expenditure from 1st January, 1911, to 30th June, 1925, has been -

The total revenue received during that period was £1,314,S62; therefore, the cost to the Commonwealth has been £4,238,734, and the results have been almost nil. That must not be allowed to continue. Surely the matter is not too big for an Australian Parliament to tackle! It has not seriously faced it so. far, but it will have to face it. Although honorable senators represent different states, I trust that they are, nevertheless^ whole-hearted Australians.. This is a part of Australia, and it is our duty to do all that we can to advance its interests. So far it has made little, if any, progressThere are railways in the Territory that commence at points in the north and the south, but yet have a big gap between. A railway runs to Oodnadatta from the south, and one starts at Darwin, and proceeds south as far as the Katherine. When the Commonwealth took over that line its terminal point was Pine Creek. Those railways are, of course, nonpaying propositions. The revenue received from them has amounted to £319,937, and the loss involved is £179,584. I shall now deal with the Territory from the point of view of population. In 1910 it contained 3,005 persons, consisting of 1,173 Europeans and 1,832 others.

Mr GREENE:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Those figures do not include the aboriginal population.

Senator FINDLEY:

– No. In 1924 there were 2,240 Europeans and 1,018 others, a total of 3,258, an increase of 147.

Senator Pearce:

– There was a much larger increase than that in the European population.

Senator FINDLEY:

– Yes. The Europeans increased by just over 1,000, but the other population decreased by over 800. The ‘following figures relate to the live-stock in the Territory at the periods I have named : -

Those who are more familiar than I am with the country will probably be able to explain why there has been such a big decrease in the number of sheep.

Senator Guthrie:

– The raising of sheep could not be made to pay owing to transport and labour difficulties and very stupid taxation.

Senator FINDLEY:

– The transportation difficulties existed in 1910.

Senator Guthrie:

– That is so. The settlers in the Territory have experienced a long, uphill struggle.

Senator FINDLEY:

– Those figures are very significant. They tell a tale, and those who are engaged in the sheep industry will probably be able to inform us , of the real cause of the tremendous decrease in the number of sheep in the Territory. The bill proposes that there shall be three commissioners, two advisory councils, and two Government residents; and that the advisory councils shall be partly nominee and partly elective. That marks a distinct departure from the present methods of administering the Territory, but as the latter are so unsatisfactory any change would probably be better than none. We have been furnished by the Administrator with a report that contains matters which should have been dealt with as firsthand without public attention having to be called to them in an official document presented to Parliament. According to the report of the Superintendent of Agriculture, for the year ended the 30th June, 1924, under the heading of “ Building, Botanic Gardens,” the curator’s house, the gardener’s house, and the outbuildings, including the aborigines’ quarters, are badly in need of repairs and paint. It is further stated -

On the curator’s house, the main supports, such as the corner posts, are bare to the sun, wind, and rains. The paint has long since worn off with age. A very good example of the value of cypress pine as a building timber is, however, thus presented. The house is about 25 years old, and yet the wood is still hard and sound. It would be a wise proceeding to renovate and paint this Government property as soon as possible.

Has not the Administrator power to authorize such work ?

Senator Pearce:

– He has the power, but it is the Minister’s responsibility to obtain the money, which is at times difficult.

Senator FINDLEY:

– Cannot money be found to renovate a building which will become almost valueless unless expenditure is incurred in the way desired by the superintendent ? Apparently, the only way by which money can be obtained is by calling attention to the fact, as is done in this report, and then leaving it to the Minister to find the money. The police commissioner also reports concerning a trip of inspection -

The ear that was handed to me for the trip was excellent, though the original five tires were perished, owing to its having stood so long in Darwin without use. Another great drawback was the want of tools; in fact, this was a very great danger to myself and boy, and one that I would never risk again.

What is the use of providing ian officer with a motor car unless it can be used with safety? The portion of the report which I have quoted shows that this officer was not supplied with the requisite tools in the event of anything happening to the car. I seriously ask the Minister whether this matter had to be finally dealt with by him before tools could be obtained?

Senator Pearce:

– The administrator has authority to expend money for such a purpose without any reference to Melbourne.

Senator FINDLEY:

– If that is the case, why is room found in the report for the complaint I have quoted? If we have spent £4,250,000 in the Northern Territory, and cannot find sufficient to equip the user of the official motor car with good tyres and necessary tools, we have come to a dead end.

There is good pastoral and agricultural land in the Northern Territory, and practically every known mineral has been discovered. “We were informed by the Minister that cotton, tobacco, peanuts and other commodities at present imported into Australia, can be grown in the Territory, but in the report, from which I have been quoting there is an apparent contradiction. The cotton industry, which was one of America’s staple industries, will, I hope, before very long, assume very important proportions in the northern part of Australia. It may become even more important to Australia than the wool industry. The Superintendent of Agriculture, in his report, states that he is impressing upon those engaged in cotton cultivation the necessity to plant early, and that, in consequence of the dry spell in January and the late planting, the cotton crop was more or less a failure. Mr. H. E. Warren, the Superintendent of the Church Missionary Society at Roper River, says -

The cotton grown was not a very great success. The seed arrived too late, and a hot spell killed most of the seedlings. What is the use of impressing upon those engaged in cotton cultivation the necessity to plant early unless supplies of seed are forwarded in sufficient time?

This measure, which contains many provisions of a highly important nature, deserves the serious consideration of every honorable senator, and if this new departure will hasten progress in the Northern

Territory the Government will have no cause to regret its introduction. I am not worrying about the salaries to be paid to the proposed commissioners because, to me, salaries axe of little consequence when compared with the important nature of the work to be undertaken. I was associated with the Government responsible for the establishment of -the Commonwealth Bank, and when the salary to be paid to the Governor of that institution was announced many said that it was too high. We were more concerned with the desirability of getting the best man available than with the salary to be paid. The appointment of the late Governor of the Bank, who has gone the way of all flesh, was in every sense justified. His salary was £4,000 a year. During a farmers’ conference in the Western District of Victoria, which I attended in company with an ex-Prime Minister (Mr. Fisher), a few1 years ago, a conversation occurred regarding the establishment of the Commonwealth Bank and “the proposal to pay the Governor of the Bank the salary I have mentioned. The gentleman to whom we were speaking, and who occupied a very important position, said, “ That is a big salary, Mr. Fisher. You propose, also, to allow the Governor £3 3s. per day for travelling expenses. He will be always travelling.” Mr. Fisher replied, “ I hope he will be. Commercial travellers are always on the move, and they do not travel unless there is a prospect of securing business. If the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank is not worth £3 3s. a day when travelling on the business of the Bank, he will not be worth much when in the Bank.” We may anticipate that the chairman of this commission will be paid more than the other two members. I had to read the bill hurriedly, but I did not see any provision in it for the payment of travelling expenses. If we expect the most qualified men to apply for these positions, we must make the conditions liberal. It has to be -remembered that the cost of living in the Northern Territory is high. I am not advocating, at the moment, that the salaries proposed should be increased, but that the Government should do its utmost to obtain the very best men available. It has to be remembered that salaries to-day are only relative. The question that everybody asks is not what salary or wage is offered, but what will the salary or wage purchase.

Senator Thompson:

– The honorable senator wants results. We have said frequently that we do not. mind what we pay so long as we get results.

Senator FINDLEY:

– I would not give any consideration whatever to this measure if it were simply a matter of appointing men to lucrative positions. We are expecting big things to be done in the Territory after this commission is appointed. It will be entrusted with large powers in respect to the maintenance and ‘operation of railways, the construction and maintenance of roads, the erection of telegraph and telephone lines, water boring and conservation, ports and harbours, and such other matters in relation to the development of the territory as are specified by proclamation from time to time.

Senator Pearce:

– And also, by a subsequent provision, in respect to lands.

Senator FINDLEY:

– It is apparent that the commission will have to discharge duties of the highest importance. It will be engaged in that hardest of all work, pioneering. It is true that it will be subject to parliamentary control, for Parliament will have to provide the money that it will have to spend; nevertheless, it will hold a very responsible position. Seeing that we are making such a marked departure from ordinary governmental methods, I trust that the Government will make every effort to secure as commissioners men who are fired with ambition to develop the territory, and who have untiring energy, as well as special qualifications, for the work. It must be remembered that the Northern Territory is different from every other part of Australia. For that reason we must secure specially qualified men to develop it. Although I am not enamoured of government . by commissions, I am 50 satisfied that the present method of administering the territory has been more or less a failure that I am willing to support the bill. I trust that the commissioners who are appointed will place North Australia “ on the map.” I sincerely desire that they shall make good and justify their appointment; and that, in a few years’ time, the Commonwealth will be glad that it took over the .Northern Territory from South Australia in 1911.

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

– It has been apparent to the people of Australia, for a considerable time that some courageous step must be taken if the Northern Territory is ever to become an asset to the Commonwealth, instead of a liability, as it has been for so many years. I welcome very heartily the introduction of this measure, and I congratulate the Leader of the Senate (Senator Pearce) on the very clear and concise statement he made in explanation of it. I listened to his speech with much attention, and because of the excellent way in which it was made, I, although never having had the opportunity of visiting the Northern Territory, was able to visualize the conditions there better than I have ever been able to do from previous speeches on the subject. I have for years taken such an interest in the Northern Territory that I have read everything that I could obtain concerning it, and I have considered for a long time that the Government would be compelled to recognize that some extraordinary steps would be necessary to promote development there. This experiment of administration by a commission may be regarded, I think, as a prelude to the introduction of selfgovernment. It is essential to the progress of Australia that we- should give just as much attention to the development of this distant part of our dominion as to other parts with which we are better acquainted. I have heard very many opinions expressed as to the value of the Northern Territory and the possibilities of making it a great asset to the Commonwealth. Some people who have visited it have stated that it is a barren waste. Others have said that it may be made prolifically productive. I prefer to take the middle view. I can quite understand that one’s views of the country, from a personal inspection of it, would depend very largely upon the season of the year in which he visited it. It appears to me that extensive tracts of country there can be made most useful to Australia.

The Government has done wisely in introducing this proposal for the appointment of capable and efficient men to develop it. I agree with Senator Findley that the very best men available should be secured to discharge the important duties defined in this bill, and to pave the way for the introduction of self-government when the population warrants the adoption of that course. Conditions which apply to the Northern Territory do not apply to any other part of the Commonwealth, and for that reason the Government is justified in proposing this departure from the ordinary forms of -government. Senator Pearce, in introducing the bill, said that the Government had great hopes that a pronounced development would occur in the pastoral industry, and, to a less extent, in the mining industry, after this commission was appointed. He also referred to the possibility of agricultural development in the low-lying lands near the coast. 1 consider that his expectations of agricultural development arc very likely to be realized. It is well known that not very many years ago Queensland embarked on experiments in cotton-growing in her northern areas, with the result that cotton is now grown ou a commercial basis in that state. As a considerable amount of laud in the Northern Territory is similar to that of northern Queensland, I can see no reason why the Territory should not, in due course, contribute its full quota of the cotton production of Australia. I am looking forward to the time when we shall produce so much raw cotton in Australia that we will be able to manufacture here all the cotton textile fabrics that we require, and convert the material into wearing apparel and other articles. I took the opportunity this morning of studying the map which is hanging on your right, Mr. President, and I was impressed more than ever with the great possibilities that’ might result from co-operation between the Governments of Queensland and Western Australia and the Commonwealth Government for developmental purposes in northern Australia. Many of the problems associated with the remote parts of those two states are identical with the problems which confront occupiers of land in the Northern Territory at present. I sincerely hope, therefore, that the proposals for co-operation will be carried to a successful issue. I have every confidence that the Government will appoint to this commission the best men available. It may be trusted to see that they have the requisite experience and ability to discharge the duties that will be entrusted to them. The provision in the bill that that part of the Northern Territory which is to be known as Central Australia shall be administered from Melbourne has a great deal to commend it. One of the difficulties in the way of the successful administration of this part of the Territory in the past has been that of maintaining close touch with Darwin; and one reason that has prevented development in the Territory generally, has been the absence of satisfactory means of communication with Melbourne. The great distances that have to be traversed have occasioned serious delays which have been prejudicial to development. I shall reserve any further remarks for the committee stage of the bill. In conclusion, I should like to express my gratification at the introduction of the bill, which, I hope, will do much for the development of that portion of Australia which hitherto has been languishing.

Senator LYNCH:
Western Australia

– I feel sure that honorable senators on both sides1 of the chamber are united in their appreciation of the fact that a measure for the development of the Northern Territory has been introduced. As previous speakers have remarked, the Territory in its present unoccupied state is a menace to the safety of the Commonwealth. It is gratifying, therefore, to know that the Government has1 put its shoulder to the wheel and is determined to push forward a scheme for the solution of this problem. It is determined that the Territory must progress. I do not agree with those who take the stand that previous experiments to develop the Territory have not been well-considered. I think they have. We must all fully appreciate the action of South Australia in assuming control of this vast Territory, thus preventing it from becoming a Crown colony, with all the drawbacks necessarily associated with that type of settlement. It is quite conceivable that, had South Australia not shouldered this responsibility, the Northern Territory, as a Crown colony, would have been developed along lines understandable at the time as being best suited for its settlement. I refer to the system of indentured labour. Had that policy been adopted, the Commonwealth,, when it took over the

Territory, would have been burdened with a troublesome legacy. Therefore, the people of the Commonwealth should be deeply grateful to South Australia for having administered the Northern Territory at a time when its resources were exceedingly slender. The legacy left to the Commonwealth as the result of the employment of Chinese labour in the Territory was as nothing compared with those problems that flowed from the policy adopted in Queensland and elsewhere of allowing Chinese to take up gold-mining properties with the same freedom as white men, and from the introduction of Chinese at Gulgong and other places in New South Wales. The Commonwealth has suffered less from the action of South Australia in the Northern Territory than from this policy on the part of certain other states. I do not agree with the statement, made in some quarters, that the Commonwealth has not been liberal or sympathetic in its treatment of the Northern Territory. When I visited that portion of Australia some time ago, I endeavoured to ascertain, from those who are in the habit of complaining, what their real grievance was, to see if it was well founded. I asked those who might be regarded as authorities on the subject to tell me in what direction Commonwealth policy was not all that it should be. When I asked them if they thought that not enough money was being spent on the Territory, as a rule they could not say how much had really been expended by the Commonwealth. I have taken the trouble to ascertain. I find that since the Commonwealth assumed control of the Territory there has been a. total expenditure of nearly £5,000,000, or well over £100 per head of the white population in the whole of the Territory. There has not been the same lavish expenditure in other portions of the Commonwealth closely approximating the Northern Territory in climate and environment. For example, in that portion of Queensland Gulf country embracing the watershed of the Flinders, Gregory, Leichhardt and other Northern rivers, malaria and other endemic disorders present difficulties to development as great as those to be encountered in the Northern Territory. As a fact, the climate at Darwin is as good as the climate in any portion of the coastal fringe in Northern Australia, while on the Barkly Tablelands, as well as in the Victoria. River country, and down along the route of the overland telegraph Une, the climate is better than in northern Queensland. I also remind the Senate that the people in the north-west of Western Australia have to fight an equally hard battle. Have those portions of Australia been so> favorably treated by the Commonwealth as the Northern Territory ? By no means. They have enjoyed only a fractional part of the expenditure incurred by the Commonwealth in the Northern Territory - only about £7 or £8 per head of the population . Th ese “ grrouser s , “ whom I met up there, could not very well complain of lack of public expenditure for the simple reason that, if they wanted more, the money would have to be fairly shovelled into the Territory. Their real trouble is that they completely fail to understand the magnitude of the problem involved in the development of such a vast area of tropical country by such a small community as we have in Australia. The history of the Panama Canal, extending over a period of nearly 400 years, should throw some light on this subject. It was not until the governmentof the United States had settled upon a scheme for the effective treatment of that fever-infested area, which was aptly, described as the white man’s grave, that the gigantic undertaking was successful. In our attempt to develop the Northern Territory, with our small population and limited resources, experiments must necessarily be tried. The Batchelor farm and other ventures, though a failure, serve as an object-lesson of what not to do. It proved conclusively that that class of country cannot be successfully worked in small areas. The same may be said of the Daly River experiment. Thus they point the way for future schemes. Only the most optimistic person could expect the early experiments in settlement and colonizing to be successful. So far as the Batchelor farm and other experiments are concerned, the authorities were taking soundings in uncharted seas; they were endeavouring to discover the best policy for the development of the Northern Territory. In that portion of Australia there are two classes of persons! - the worthy class, comprising the pioneers, who, thank heaven ! are not all dead yet; and the “grousing” class - those people who will never get on well in any circumstances. They spend more time minding other people’s business than their own.

The worthy class was the means of discovering North Australia to the rest of Australia and to the wide world generally. It was a hardy type of man that opened up the northern peninsula about the Palmer goldfield, the feverinfested areas of the Gulf country, and the Kimberleys in the west. Such were the men who saved the situation in the past, and the fact that men of their type are still to be found in the north gives us cause to recall at every turn how necessary it is to further their interests as well as those of others who would throw in their lot with them. It is urged by some that the Government has been lacking in sympathy for the people in the Northern Territory. If the test be the liberal assistance granted from time to time out of revenue and loan moneys, it has been amply demonstrated that in this respect the Commonwealth Government has been in every way sympathetic to the people in the Territory. If the other test is applied, that of mapping out the land and demonstrating what it is capable of doing in one sphere or another, it has also been shown that the Government has been prepared to spend money in order to see what ought to be done and what ought to be avoided.

I quite agree with Senator Pearce that the Territory is for the moment mainly a pastoral proposition. It is remote from the settled parts of Australia, and, so far as our knowledge of working tropical and eub-tropical land extends, is not a very invitiing place to go to. If the average citizen were given the choice he would much prefer to settle in the lowerRiverina of New South Wales, the southern portion of Queensland, the Atherton Tableland, even the most uninviting part of Victoria–

Senator Pearce:

– Or in Western Australia.

Senator LYNCH:

– I was coming to that. I was leaving the best till the last. Coming from the Old Country the average citizen given the choice of settling in any part of the Territory, even the most pleasant or most inviting part of it, or in Western Australia, would infinitely prefer to go to Western Australia. And he would do so for a very simple reason. A man coming from a European country is naturally disinclined to go where he is obliged to work under a perpendicular sun. He prefers to work under a slanting sun such as he has been accustomed to. Naturally, he takes the line of least resistance - a point I shall refer to later on - but it has been shown that a man can work under a perpendicular sun or even under a sun slightly off the perpendicular and enjoy just as good health as he would when working in a temperate zone. The experience’ of our people . in Queensland stands out in contradiction of the belief that a tropical sun injures one’s health. Queensland is, in point of fact, a place where one has a better chance of living a longer life than he would have anywhere else.

We are dealing with a Territory that lies in the tropical and sub-tropical zones, but yet contains some of the finest areas of soil to be found in any tropical or sub-tropical centre. The red markings on the map in the chamber, which set out the land, that has been taken up, do not by any means indicate all the good land in the Territory, and in this connexion I may say a few words in reply to some remarks that honorable senators have made concerning the difficulty of promoting settlement under the existing’ land-tenure system. For years I was in close touch with Mr. William Laurie, the original prospector of Tanami, which is situated about the 20th parallel of latitude - the line that . marks the northern boundary of proposed Central Australia - and is well below the Victoria River basin. Not an acre of that country has been taken up. It is not coloured on the map; it is a No Man’s Land. Mr. Laurie wrote to me on several occasions. I did what little I could to enable the hardy band of pioneers located at Tanami to carry on under the great privations they had to endure. I got them a mail service, water supply, and other things, and I did not find a Minister who would turn a deaf ear to any representations made to him on behalf of the pioneers of the Territory. Mr. Laurie, who is now deceased, told me that on one occasion his camels were lost. He found them from 70 to 100 miles south of Tanami, not far from the boundary of Western Australia. They were mud fat, fatter than when he had them about Tanami. In searching for them he came across country of very good description, and found colours of gold in various creeks and spots he sampled. His story has since been supplemented in a very substantial and reliable way by another prospector, Mr. Jack Wickham, who arrived at Laurie’s camp one night from the unknown country west of Alice Springs. He told how he had discovered a fresh water lake 30 miles across; how he had come across wild fowl in abundance; natives in huge numbers, and well cared for and friendly; and how the country around the lake was of splendid quality. That lake is out in that No Man’s Land, where any one who chooses can take up land. When we are told that there is no chance for the Territory to progress under the existing system of land tenure, the answer is that if a man has any money to spare he can take up land in this area and make it a success. And this area lies about 350 miles from the important seaport of Wyndham. There is also the encouraging story told me by Mr. Tom Laurie. Amongst some stores brought out from Hall’s Creek to Tanami there were samples ofwheat, which he threw out on the rubbish tip. In a very short while that wheat grew until it was 3 feet high and bore splendid heads. Upon hearing this story from Mr. Laurie, I obtained samples of wheat from the Agricultural Department in Victoria and forwarded them to him. Unfortunately, however, his brother died and his plans for the moment were so disarranged that he was not able to follow up the experiment. We all thought such an experiment would be useful as likely to indicate that the country round Tanami from a wheat-growing point- of view, would be well within the bounds of good hope.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to8 p.m.

Senator LYNCH:

– Before the adjournment I was directing the attention of honorable senators to the map of the Northern Territory displayed in the Senate, and pointing out that it docs not give a true indication of the extent of the area that is available for settlement. . I took it upon myself during the adjournment to pin a piece of blue ribbon to a bare patch on the map. Honorable senators well understand that the portion marked white represents Crown land that has not yet been settled upon. Tanami gold-field lies at the northern point of that piece of blue ribbon, and on the northern boun dary line of the suggested Central Australia area. The discoverer of Tanami, Mr. Laurie, told me that he saw growing there wheat 3 feet high, and the season was not an abnormal one. He also said that on his frequent trips to Hall’s Creek for supplies he found the country looking like a waving field of wheat. Those experiences, in conjunction with the story told by the prospector, Mr. Jack Wickham, who came from a point due west of Alice Springs, prove that that portion of the Territory which is at present unoccupied is capable of being settled with a prosperous and thriving population. On the authority of those who have been there and know the country, it can be said that there is ample scope for the settlement of hundreds of thousands” of acres, if not of square miles, of that area. I suppose that honorable senators are aware that the northern part of the Territory is thought to be not of the same value as the southern portion. The country from the northern coast line to a point about 150 miles to the south is supposed to be waste land that is incapable of being turned to practical account. Those who read the daily press, I am sure were gratified to learn recently that a shipment of bullocks taken from a spot less than 100 miles from Darwin averaged in the neighbourhood of 7 cwt. each. They were shipped from Darwin to Java. The area in which they were raised has hitherto been regarded as the worst part of the Territory, or at least as not being deserving of immediate attention from the government or potential settlers. I think that we are spoilt children of nature; we use only the best land, and refuse to work any that is at all inferior. In the neighbourhood of Darwin I saw land on which there was dense scrub. That clearly indicated to me that it possessed quality and substance. Yet on the map it is designated as worthless ! I believe that history will repeat itself, and that some time in the future, when the first quality is exhausted, the people of Australia will have to be content with the second and third best land. The time will come when every inch of that Territory will be taken up and cultivated.

Senator McHugh:

– That is the policy of the Labour party, and it will give effect to it when it comes into power.

Senator LYNCH:

– I suppose no question is more widely, debated and canvassed than that of whether the Territory, or even Northern Australia, is a white man’s land. I believe that it is. I am- convinced that, with the exception of certain areas which suffer from miasmatic troubles, Northern Australia is essentially a place where a white man, having undergone the process of acclimatization, and paid due regard to correct methods of hygiene, may make his permanent home.

Senator McHugh:

– Will the honorable senator give him an eight-hour day ?

Senator LYNCH:

– We are not troubled with such trifles at present; we are considering the development of a continent. We want to devise a plan whereby this immense territory, which is the common heritage of the whole of the people of Australia, may be settled and developed. When that has been done, we can consider whether there shall be a four-hour, an eight-hour, or a 24-hour day. I remind this young man (Senator McHugh) that the pioneers who settled in Northern Australia did not practise an eight-hour day. As often as not, they worked 20 hours out of the 24 to achieve their object. If we do not promptly deal with the problem of developing the Territory, by all the rules that govern the spread of population throughout the world we deserve to lose it. We cannot for ever sit down and put up a placard saying to the world, “Keep off this plot.” Those people who receive that notice will ask, “By what right does this handful of people - this population of 5,000,000 - thus challenge the world?”

Senator McHugh:

– Five million Australians could beat the world.

Senator LYNCH:

– What braggadocio! Such a notice, at any time, is presumptuous. The present inhabitants of Australia came here in obedience to a law which has been in operation ever since the children of Abraham left their father’s house. We came here because we found the Old Country too circumscribed and too cramped for our ambitions. We found this continent inhabited by a primeval race. Briefly and effectively, those people were given the notice to “Keep off the grass,” to stand aside and enable us to show them that this continent could be put to a better use than that to which they were putting it. That black race were the rightful owners of this soil. Just as we issued an injunction to them, so it is possible for some other race to bear down upon us and judge us by standards similar to those that we applied. We have no justification for saying, “ This is our country “ unless we put it to its maximum use. A scheme for doing so is now engaging our attention. It is quite true that efforts in that direction have been frustrated and nullified by the very men in whose interests the policy of making this a white man’s preserve was instituted. In the most misguided way possible, certain persons at Darwin have availed themselves of every opportunity - unfortunately with a good deal of success - to bring to a stand-still the chief industry in the Territory, and prevent the settlement of its lands. Yet they talk about the necessity for filling the present untenanted spaces, and urge this, that, and the other kind of reform. I have spoken in this strain on occasions when I thought the greatest advantage was to be gained; but coming from me, the same effect is not gained as would be possible if honorable senators opposite exerted their influence in the same direction. Those honorable senators say in private what they dare not say in public.

Senator McHugh:

– We stand by the White Australia policy.

Senator LYNCH:

– Of course, all honorable senators do! When the enemy comes in sight, I suppose the extremists of the latter-day Labour party will preach the doctrine of the brotherhood of man, and warn off cruisers carrying 16- inch guns that have been constructed outside Australia for our defence!

Senator McHugh:

– We believe in building cruisers in Australia. The honorable senator favours their construction in Scotland.

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:
QUEENSLAND

– Order! The honorable senator is interjecting too freely.

Senator LYNCH:

– I do not for a moment believe that we can permanently hold this country unless we make it safe from external invasion, or fill up its empty spaces at as fast a rate as is consistent with the observance of our own standards. The question is likely to be asked at the League of Nations, “What is this mere handful of a population doing with that continent ?”

Senator McHugh:

– We are improving the conditions of the workers.

Senator LYNCH:

– It will be said, “ By every rule, it is capable of carrying a population of from 100,000,000 to 200,000,000 people.” It will not do for us merely to say, “ This is our property.” We shall have to follow that up by showing a preparedness to defend it. Those who adopt the most effective means for preventing people from coming here, and stopping our industries from running smoothly, at the same time taking no hand in devising means for defending the country, are engaged in a suicidal pastime. If we want to .uphold the policy of a White Australia, we must prove that we are availing ourselves of every opportunity to obtain worthy citizens, and at the same time doing what every other country in the world - even bolshevik Russia - is doing, adopting effective means for defending ourselves.

I have been striding back this afternoon to my schoolboy days. I have been studying the position on the map of this island continent of ours and its relation to- other countries of the world - a pastime which, in my school days, I always found most absorbing. I ask honorable senators at the outset to- conjure up in their minds a huge square templet covering the sector which Australia occupies on the map of the world to-day, and particularly that part of it which may be said to closely hinge on the equator. Let us turn this templet over, as it were, on to the northern hemisphere on its hinges on the equator. Let us ask ourselves where this country lies in relation to the peoples and countries of the northern hemisphere, and what relation the problem now before us bears to the problems that confronted the older countries in centuries gone by. It is an interesting study. It is quite true that the civilization of these countries of the northern hemisphere is much older than our own; but we should avail ourselves of the opportunity to study the relative position of Australia and those countries in regard to- anthropological, climatological, and also hygienic conditions. In turning this templet over, we find that the line corresponding with the 40th parallel of southern latitude, in which Bass Strait lies, in the case of the old world runs through Central Mongolia, Thibet, Asia Minor, the toe of Italy, and the centre of Spain. That line is south of the whole area of the Commonwealth with the exception of Tas mania, and, as honorable, senators know, for a great “period countries on a great part of that line in the old world were not the habitat of the white man at all. Let us ask ourselves who have sprung from that particular sector, and what figures they have cut in history. There was, among others, Attila, whose legions thundered against the walls of Rome, and brought its civilization almost to dust. There were also Tamerlane, Genghis Khan and others. So that from this region sprang some mighty figures who engraved their names in large letters on the pages of time. If we proceed 10 deg. northwards to the 30th parallel of southern latitude, which, so far as the Commonwealth is concerned, commences at Grafton, in New South Wales, and stretches through the continent to Carnarvon, in Western Australia, we find that it takes in,, so to speak, the temperate portion of Australia. The corresponding line in the northern hemisphere goes through Central China, the Lower Himalayas, lower Persia, northern Arabia, the Barbary States of Africa, and right- on through the new world. From that area also came men who, in the past, pitted their strength, endurance, and skill against the rest of the world. There waa Darius and also Hannibal, the inveterate foes of Greece and Rome, who, when Rome- was at its very zenith, in turn, threatened its supremacy. We have read how Hannibal marched his troops from Carthage into the Iberian Peninsula, and over the Alps, performing feats of which even military engineers of to-day read with profound amazement. Along the corresponding line which marks the influence of the tropical or perpendicular sun arose, in the past, men of outstanding capacity. The line in the northern hemisphere corresponding with the 30th parallel of southern latitude - which, as I have said, runs through the Commonwealth from Grafton, in the east, to Carnarvon, in the west - cuts, in the New World, ths neck of Florida, skims the Gulf of Mexico, and runs through southern California. Above that particular line of latitude in the New World it was thought necessary to supplement the white man’s efforts by cheap labour from Africa and elsewhere. We would not dream of introducing black labour to work the country below the 30th parallel of south latitude. “We never seriously thought of doing such a thing; but we know what America did. Ever since slaves were taken in battle, the employment of cheap labour, with the solitary exception of our own case, has always been, in every age and clime, a purely economic matter. It has always been a matter of the white man, as Lord Brougham said, asserting dominion and authority over his fellows and employing black, brown, or brindle labour to assist him in his worldly selfish pursuits. When America was drenched in blood - when brother was fighting against brother - the dominant thought in the southern states was that the southern part of North America could not be successfully developed except by slave labour from Africa. We have travelled along the road of history a bit further, and are to-day in the happy position of not being put to the necessity of adopting the same expedient in this country. “Passing 10. deg. further north, we come to the 20th parallel of south latitude, which begins, so far as the Commonwealth is concerned, at Bowen, in Queensland, passes through intensely fertile country in its course through the interior and emerges at Broome, in Western Australia. The corresponding line in the Old World passes through North Cochin-Ohina, the heart of India, southern Arabia, the Lower Soudan, and the Lower Sahara. Those names would not suggest a white man’s domicile, but no one acquainted with the country on the 20th parallel of latitude in the southern hemisphere, concerning which I know a little, would dream of asserting that it was not essentially and demonstrably a white man’s country. The other 10 degrees includes territory concerning the development of which there is a problem for every one to solve. A further 10 degrees north from that to which I have just referred would take us right into the ocean, but not a great distance north of Cape Yorke. The 10 degrees mentioned, practically speaking, embraces within its area that territory in the development of which there is a problem for our Australian statesmen and scientists to solve. In the corresponding zone in the northern hemisphere all the arguments that ancient or modern civilization could mustier have been brought to bear on the solution of mighty problems affecting the white man’s permanent domicile therein. They have all failed except a recent one, to which I shall refer. It is interesting to note that Timbuctoo is in the same latitude as Wyndham in Western Australia, and Cooktown in Queensland. How to develop and manage that area, and how to stand four-square against the charge levelled at our system, is the problem which we have to seriously consider. In the area south of the 20th parallel of latitude we should be able to raise as intelligent and progressive a race as has been raised in any part of the world, and, as a matter of fact, we are doing so to-day. In Australia we are supplying proof of what can be done. America also had her problem to solve, but because of her latitudinal position it was an easier proposition. We are solving the problem for the benefit of the whole world, and are endeavouring to prove that the white man’s standard can be planted nearer to the equator than it has ever been planted in any country or in any age. The Romans made the attempt in Northern Africa, but failed. Julius Caesar sent Marius there, but the bones of his legions - “the iron hammers of the world” - were left there for the birds to pick. The area north of the 20th degree of latitude contains the most fertile land, acre for acre, that is to be found in any country? The Northern Territory, in proportion to its area, contains as much fertile land as any other area of which I know. There are, of course, certain picked spots of equal fertility in North and Central America, just as there are in other countries. But, taken as a whole, the land in the Northern Territory compares more than favorably with that of other countries. Instead of belittling the Territory, we should regard it as a fine asset for this country to possess, and its effective settlement is a problem we hope to solve at no distant date. Just as this country has demonstrated that white settlement can be undertaken from the 20th parallel of latitude upwards, so others have been engaged upon the same problems, and with very satisfactory results.

We have to remember what the Americans have done in Panama. For hundreds of years they tried in vain to oe.al effectively with it, and whoever wen there regarded it as a white man’s grave. The French Government in turn took up the work, and endeavoured to cut a canal through the isthmus. Their efforts ended in failure, because up to that time they did not know sufficient concerning tropical lands and how to work them, nor were they able to bring medical science and hygiene to their aid. The French people expended 300,000,000 dollars on the canal, all to no purpose, but later the American Government, by the expenditure of an additional 75,000,000 dollars, made a success of the undertaking. The question is, “ How did they do it?” Those who had been operating in the past were losing half of their men, but in the end they considered the hygienic problem and discovered means of overcoming yellow fever, malaria, and other allied disorders. The success eventually achieved is known throughout the world to-day. Panama, instead of being a fever-infested area, is relatively healthy, and a place where a white man can live in comparative comfort and propagate his species. The following is a short quotation from a book entitled The Panavia Canal and its Makers, by Vaughan Cornish, to show the struggles which the American Government had to overcome before it got its canal through Panama -

Thus the yellow fever, having taken toll for 400 years of those who crossed the Isthmus, has been completely eradicated by Colonel Gorgas and bis assistants. It is a triumph of science and despotic government combined, and only in this combination can preventive medicine achieve full success.

That appears on page 130 of the book. On the question of whether white men can live in tropical locations, I wish . to quote a statement by Colonel Gorgas.

Senator McHugh:

– On a point of order, is the honorable senator in order in discussing this matter?

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:

– I have been following the honorable senator closely, and I understand that he is quoting authorities to show that the Northern Territory, with which this bill deals, is capable of successful development. His remarks, therefore, are quite in order.

Senator LYNCH:

– Colonel Gorgas was the head of the American Hygienic Department in the work at Panama. He says-

I think the sanitarian’ can now show that any population coming into the tropics can protect itself against these two diseases (malaria and yellow fever) by measures that, are both simple and inexpensive; that with these two diseases eliminated life in the tropics for the AngloSaxon will be more healthful than in the temperate zones; that gradually, within the next two or three centuries, tropical countries, which offer a much greater return for man’s labour than do the temperate zones, will be settled up by the white races, and that again the centres of wealth, civilization, and population will be in the tropics, as they were in the dawn of man’s history, rather than in the temperate zone, as at present.

Honorable senators can accept those views for what they are worth, but they are the considered opinion of a man who studied the subject, and who worked in the great and successful national endeavour to make the Panama Canal zone a place in which white men could live and thrive. He was mainly responsible for that. The experience at Panama is most hopeful and encouraging to us, for it shows that even the worst tropical zones can be made suitable for occupation by white men.

Senator McHugh:

– Give us something about Australia.

Senator LYNCH:

– The Australasian Medical Congress which met at Brisbane in 1920 also considered whether it was possible for white men to be permanently and profitably domiciled in tropical Australia. In a pamphlet circulated among honorable members of this Parliament the matter is referred to in the following terms : -

The policy of a White Australia presents no difficulties beyond those of organization, staff, time and money, and such is the considered opinion of the Australasian Medical Congress of 1920, as will be seen from the following extract from the “Report of the Discussions at the Australian Medical Congress at Brisbane, 27th August, 1920 “ : -

After mature consideration of- sources of information embodying the results of long and varied professional experience and observation in the Australian tropics the Congress is unable to find anything pointing to the existence of inherent or insuperable obstacles in the way of the permanent occupation of tropical Australia by a healthy indigenous white race. lt considers that the whole question of successful development of tropical Australia by white races is fundamentally a question of applied public health in the modern sense, such as has been demonstrated and practised with success among civil populations under far more difficult conditions, by the American authorities in the Philippines prior to the Great War, and throughout the War, and by military forces of every allied power during that war.

Thus we have it, on the authority of our own scientific men who have studied the problem on the spot, that the settlement of tropical Australia offers no insurmountable difficulties, and that we can look forward with every confidence to its consummation. I believe that if we adjust ourselves to tropical conditions, face the problems squarely, take our courage in our hands and deal drastically with those social elements which in the immediate past have brought the wheels of industry to a stand-still in the Northern Territory, we can settle a prosperous white people there. We must do so to make our position safe and our defence invulnerable. We must populate this country and make use of it, or we shall forfeit our right to hold it. - ^Extension of time granted.] - The other points that I wish to refer to deal with the financial position and the position of the states whose co-operation is sought. Reference has been made to the proposals that have been submitted to Western Australia and Queensland to co-operate with the Government in working out this big scheme. I am justified in calling it a big scheme. As a matter of fact, it is the best thoughtout, most matured, and comprehensive proposal that has been made to the people of Australia for the development of the Northern Territory since it has been under Commonwealth control.

Senator McHugh:

– It has taken the honorable senator a long time to reach that opinion. .

Senator LYNCH:

– We need the cooperation of the adjoining states to get the best out of the scheme. Without their assistance we shall be able to make only a comparative success of it. A look at the map must surely convince honorable senators that the difficulties which confront Western Australia and Queensland in dealing with their territory which adjoins ours are similar to those which confront us.

Senator McHugh:

– When did the honorable senator discover that?

Senator LYNCH:

– Glancing at that huge lobe of colour on the map before us, which outlines the Barkly Tablelands, I am reminded that it has been stated that those tablelands are capable of supporting 15,000,000 sheep.

Senator McHugh:

– Who said that?

The PRESIDENT:

– Order! Senator McHugh has been continually interjecting. I have borne very patiently with him, but I shall not tolerate his interjections much longer.

Senator LYNCH:

– I believe that the Barkly Tablelands, if properly developed, could carry many more than 15,000,000 sheep. They will do so when they are subdivided, as they will be, in the process of time. It stands to reason, however, that if settlers are obliged to send all their produce to Darwin and obtain their requirements from there, development will be hindered. It would be much better if they could get an outlet at Burketown, in Queensland, or at Port McArthur.

Senator Thompson:

– Burketown is a very poor port, and McArthur is worse.

Senator LYNCH:

– That is so at present, but both could be developed.

Senator McHugh:

Senator McHugh interjecting,

The PRESIDENT:

– I have already warned Senator McHugh, and I shall not warn him again. I hope that he will allow Senator Lynch to continue his speech without further interruption.

Senator LYNCH:

– It is necessary in the Northern Territory, as well as in other parts of Australia, to provide the easiest and most direct outlets for production. Efforts should be made to develop ports somewhere in the neighbourhood of all country that it is hoped to develop. It is impossible to expect the maximum development in country which is not served by convenient transport facilities. I hope that for this reason alone Queensland and Western Australia will co-operate with the Commonwealth in this project to develop Northern Australia. If a port could be established at Burketown or at some other suitable point on the Gulf of Carpentaria it would be advantageous both to Queensland and the Northern Territory. The same argument may be used in respect to Western Australia. Some of the finest pastoral country in Australia - I do not say the finest, for there are tracts of country equally as good elsewhere - is to be found in the East Kimberly district, the natural port of which is Wyndham. All the rich Victoria River Downs country should have reasonable facilities to reach Wyndham. The fact is that the whole of that territory is homogeneous, and a policy should . be adopted which would provide it with the easiest and shortest route to the sea-board. I trust that the states concerned will stand in with this enterprise, and not withhold their co-operation because they fear that the Commonwealth Government will do something which will not be in their particular interests. They ought to realize for once that state boundaries should not count, and that this big problem cannot be solved in a disjointed piecemeal fashion. From their point of view the Commonwealth would be in the position of a company which would come along to them and say, “ We are willing to build railway lines and equip ports and harbours, improve transport and communication generally within the territory concerned for the purpose of handling its produce expeditiously and cheaply.” But there is this important point to be remembered - the Commonwealth would not come in the guise of a private railway company in expectation of, at some time, reaping a reward for the investment of its capital; it would come with the object of exercising a paternal interest in the development of the country. Its whole object in making these proposals is to solve satisfactorily a problem that has long disturbed the minds of all who are interested in the future of. the country. I do not think that the Commonwealth will ever try to drive a hard bargain with the states. In this particular case it certainly stands to lose rather than to gain. I believe that it will offer the states the easiest possible terms and conditions. I welcome this proposal, but I am anxious to ascertain what will be the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the states with regard to it. I presume that Parliament will be asked to authorize works if the states are willing. In the meantime, I entertain the firm hope that the states concerned will accept the proposal and become associated with the Commonwealth in the long delayed work of developing this rich heritage of ours. -My ardent hope is that while the Commonwealth will do its full share in this important work, the states, in turn, will also accept their share and co-operate wholeheartedly.

Debate (on motion by Senator Grant) adjourned.

page 762

ADJOURNMENT

Government Business - Parliament House, Canberra : Furniture for Senate Chamber

Senator PEARCE:
Minister . for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

– In moving -

That the Senate do now’ adjourn,

I should like to say that I hope honorable senators to-morrow will come prepared to continue the debate on the Northern Australia Bill.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Some years ago, when I visited Port Augusta, in South Australia, I saw a very large number of arm chairs, the peculiar design of which attracted my attention. They were so unsuitable that they appeared to be left on hand. Later, I found that the Federal members’ room in Sydney was furnished with those chairs, and also with a peculiar kind of table, remarkable for its sharp corners. No other tables of the same kind are to be found in any of the Commonwealth public offices. They appear to have been reserved exclusively for Federal members. The furniture in this chamber, as honorable senators will notice, is all rounded at the corners to prevent accidents. I refer to this matter now, because it has come under my notice that it is intended to furnish the provisional parliamentary buildings at Canberra with a type of desk which, I think, should not be tolerated. It is too low and too sharp at the corners. There is nothing wrong with the material or the workmanship, but the design is extremely faulty. Whoever wes responsible should be informed that it is not suitable for the requirements of members. I understand that the sample desk on view in the .Senate club-room has been inspected by several members of both Houses, and that all have some fault to find with it. It is supposed to be a double desk. Why that design should have been selected I am at a loss to understand. Each desk ought to be entirely separate, and all the corners should be nicely rounded off. I hope that steps will be taken without delay to indicate to the responsible authorities that the proposed design is unsuitable.

Senator WILSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · South AustraliaMinister for Markets and Migration · NAT

. -I can assure Senator Grant that I will bring the matter under the notice of the Minister for Works andRail ways (Mr. Hill). I should like to say, however, that Senator Grant’s reference to the accommodation provided for Federal members in Sydney was rather unfortunate. I do not begrudge New South Wales members the magnificent reading room, and other accommodation which they enjoy in Sydney, but I remind them that Federal members in the other states have nothing approaching it. If honorable senators are as well treated at Canberra, they should be well satisfied. I hope that the desk which Senator Grant will occupy at Canberra will be more comfortable than that which, I understand, he used earlier in his life. In imagination I can see the honorable senator, sitting at a desk with a map of the world in front of him, instructing others from it for the good of mankind. I shall bring the matter he mentioned under the notice of the responsible Minister, but I shall also intimate that the accommodation provided for the Federal members in Sydney would, at all events, be good enough for me.

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:

– Before putting the question, I should like to say, for the information of Senator Grant and other honorable senators, that, the sample bench and desk were placed in the Senate club-room for inspection by honorable senators, who were invited by notice placed on them, to makesuggestions. Instead of doing that, Senator Grant has indulged in this tirade in tho Senate.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I object to your language, Mr. President. I did not indulge in a tirade.

The PRESIDENT:

– Every honorable senator is aware that the design has not yet been finally adopted. The bench and desk were placed in the Senate club- room for inspection and in order that honorable senators might make suggestions. That was the proper course for Senator Grant to pursue.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned al 8.56 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 8 July 1925, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1925/19250708_senate_9_110/>.

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