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Senate
11 September 1924

9^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- RELIEF SHIP HUDDERSFIELD
COMPENSATION CLAIM: MUNITION WORKER DUNK
QUESTION
- LINESMEN’S QUARTERS, FITZROY, KIMBERLEY
QUESTION
- GRANTS TO TASMANIA
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT LINE OF STEAMERS
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH BANK BOARD
QUESTION
- DUTY ON COPRA
QUESTION
- CANBERRA BUILDING LEASES
QUESTION
- STATEMENTS BY MR. MARKS, M.P
LEAVE OF ABSENCE
WINE EXPORT BOUNTY BILL
CASE OF LIEUTENANT W. W. PAINE
- Select Committee’s Report
- Ordered -
TARIFF BOARD BILL
PAPUA BILL
- Second Reading
WIRELESS AGREEMENT BILL
- Second Reading
SEA CARRIAGE OF GOODS BILL
PAPERS
ADJOURNMENT

The Deputy President (Senator Newland) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 4179

QUESTION

RELIEF SHIP HUDDERSFIELD

Boucaut Bay and Elcho Island Companies : Press Statements

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

– Has the Leader of the Senate any statement to make respecting the allegations that are contained in a report which appears in to-day’s Melbourne Age regarding the relief ship Huddersfield?

Senator PEARCE:
Minister of Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

– I take it that the honorable senator refers to a telegram from Sydney that appears in to-day’s Age? .

Senator Findley:

– Yes.

Senator PEARCE:

– Then I ask leave to make a statement.

Leave granted.

Senator PEARCE:

– In this telegraphic message from Sydney, which appears in to-day’s Age, certain questions are put to the Prime Minister. The first is -

Is it a fact that the Boucaut Bay Petroleum Co. Ltd., 440 Collins-street, Melbourne, which is registered as owner of the Huddersfield, is, and has been for some months, an interlocking company with the Elcho Island Naphtha Petroleum Co. Ltd., each having large holdings of shares in the other, each holding shares in the Junction Mazut Oil Co.? Do these three companies share the same address and the same officials wholly or partially?

I am not prepared to answer that offhand, because, obviously, it does not come within the purview of the Home and Territories Department. But inquiries are being made to ascertain the facts. The next question is -

Was it upon the tender of the Boucaut Bay Co. that the Huddersfield was chosen to receive a Government subsidy for the Northern Territory service? Upon what date were tenders called, and upon what date were they accepted? Was the offer of the Huddersfield accepted at £5,000 per annum, and was the subsidy proposed, then, or at any time, varied in amount? If any increased subsidy was granted, how much of the annual mileage which tenderers were asked to guarantee had been covered? How much mileage had been covered when the vessel left on the Douglas Mawson expedition ?

The reply to that, compiled from the departmental files, is as follows: - Tenders for the coastal shipping service of the Northern Territory were called for by public advertisement on the 12th December, 1923, the closing date being fixed for the 7th January, 1924. The acceptance of the tender of the Boucaut Bay Company Limited, to carry out the service with two vessels, for a subsidy at the rate of £6,000 per annum, was approved by Cabinet on the 14th March, 1924. There was no variation of or increase in the rate of subsidy. The company had submitted two alternative tenders, one for the employment of one vessel for a subsidy of £5,000 per annum, and the other for the employment of two vessels for a subsidy of £6,000 per annum. It was the latter tender that was accepted. The Huddersfield had undergone a satisfactory speed trial, under the supervision of the Commonwealth Navigation Service, prior to the acceptance of the tender. The tender was accepted conditionally upon a clean certificate being issued by the Commonwealth Navigation Service and upon certain improvements in the vessel’s accommodation being effected. These conditions were duly complied with. At the date on which the Huddersfield sailed from Darwin with the relief expedition, that vessel had not carried out any voyages under the coastal shipping service agreement, but a number of voyages had been made by the contractor’s second vessel and another vessel chartered by the contractors. Particulars of the mileage covered on those voyages are being obtained from the Administrator. It is understood that the Elcho Island Naphtha Petroleum Company, which comprises about60,000 shareholders, holds 250 shares in the Boucaut Bay Company Limited, but that these shares were not allotted until after the latter company had secured the coastal shipping service contract. I now come to a matter that is very much more serious; not because a direct statement is made, but because the obvious inference intended to be conveyed is of a grave character. The paragraph asks -

Is it a fact that the following allotments of shares were registered at the RegistrarGeneral’s Office in Melbourne within the past twelve months in the Elcho Island Naphtha Petroleum Co., 440 Little Collins-street, Melbourne : - Between 15th October and 13th November, 1923, Percy Whyte Pearce, Miller Point, Alphington, clerk, 10 shares; Elizabeth Maud Pearce, Park-street, South Yarra, domestic duties, 50 shares; Walter L. Smallhorn, Coppin-street, East Malvern, civil servant, 249 shares.

During February, 1924 : - Percy Whyte Pearce, Crisp-street, Hampton, clerk, 10 shares.

Between 29th April and 30th June, 1924 :- Percy Whyte Pearce, Crisp-street, Hampton, 10 shares;’ Boucaut Bay Petroleum Co., 2,500 shares.

In the Boucaut Bay Petroleum Co. - Between 29th April and ,30th June, 1924, Elcho Island Naphtha and Petroleum Co. Ltd., 500 shares.

The Daily Telegraph also states that it has ascertained that Captain Walter L. Smallhorn, clerk in charge of the Northern Territory Affairs Department, resides in Coppin-street, East Malvern. The Melbourne telephone directory gives the address of Senator Pearce as Park-street, South Yarra. The addresses of the Elcho and Boucaut companies are 440 little Collins-street.

I say that the inference intended to be drawn is that the shares held in the name of “ Pearc© “ are held by me or by somebody acting for me, or by relatives of mine. I wish to inform the Senate that Percy Whyte Pearce is absolutely unknown to me. He is not connected with me or with my wife in any way, and he is unknown to both of us; but I have already set afoot investigations to discover who he is, and whether he is in any way connected with a Commonwealth department. The name “Elizabeth Maud Pearce” should . be “ Eliza Maud Pearce.” That is the name of my wife, who has 50 shares, paid up to 10s., in the Elcho Island Oil Company, called in the newspaper article the Elcho Island Naphtha Petroleum Company. Those shares were purchased in December, 1923 . Inquiries are being made by the department to ascertain when Mr. Smallhorn purchased the shares that are registered in his name, and under what conditions and for what consideration they were purchased. I am not yet able to make a statement regarding those shares. But in regard to the shares held by my wife, I want to say that they were purchased by her before either she or I had any knowledge of even a proposal to form the Boucaut Bay Company, or of any possible connexion between that company and the Elcho Island Oil Company. It appears from the newspaper report that these two companies during or after their formation agreed to an exchange of shares. According to the information in the pos- session of the department, the Elcho Island Oil Company comprises 60,000 shareholders, and it holds 250 shares in the Boucaut Bay Company. According to the newspaper article the Boucaut Bay Company holds 2,500 shares in the Elcho Island Oil Company. But those shares were not allotted until after the Boucaut Bay Company had obtained the shipping contract. Of course, the inference intended to be conveyed in this article is that these shares were not obtained in the ordinary way, by purchase, but that they were a gift to enable that company to obtain the shipping contract. If that is the inference intended to be conveyed in regard to the shares held by my wife, I stigmatize it as a lie and a slander. I wish that the Standing Orders would permit me to use even stronger terms. If this newspaper had had the courage to put the matter in such a way as to say plainly what it evidently wishes the public to infer, I should have had a remedy which would enable me in any court of law in this country to prove my bona fides. I should then have put this newspaper in the position of having to defend in a court of law the inference behind which it has sheltered itself in this cowardly way. The matter of the shares held by Mr. Smallhorn does not come within my knowledge, but I met the secretary of the. department this morning, and drew his attention to the statement, with the result that inquiries are now being made. I may say, however, that Mr. Smallhorn is in charge of a branch of the Home and Territories Department which deals with Northern Territory administrative matters, whereas the relations of the department with the Elcho Island Oil Company are dealt with, not by that branch, but by the Lands Branch , with which Mr. Smallhorn has no connexion whatever. The licence to this Oil Company was issued through another officer, Mr. Hicks, who is the senior officer in charge of the Lands Branch. It is also only fair to Mr. Smallhorn to say that the recommendations made to me in regard to the shipping contract were made by the secretary to the department, Mr. McLaren, and these recommendations were made only after trial and survey, and examination of the ship by the officers of the navigation staff, who satisfied Mr. McLaren and myself that they had given a certificate which would enable us to recommend the contract to the Government.

page 4181

COMPENSATION CLAIM: MUNITION WORKER DUNK

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

– (By leave.) - I move -

That the select committee appointed to inquire into the case of Mr. J. T. Dunk have leave to sit with a quorum of three.

The committee, which met to-day, wishes to take certain evidence in Sydney, but it is doubtful whether the whole of the members can undertake the trip. If a quorum is not able to go, it is desired that three members may take the evidence, thus saving the trouble of bringing a few witnesses from Sydney to Melbourne.

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

– I shall not oppose the motion; but I agree to it on the distinct understanding that the quorum of three will apply only to the Sydney meeting, and that at any meetings held in Melbourne the ordinary quorum will be required. I also expect that in the drafting of the report the usual rule will obtain.

Senator Gardiner:

– My only purpose in submitting the motion is to obtain the evidence in Sydney, and this evidence will be put before the committee before it considers its report. The motion is submitted with the full consent of the committee.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Motion (by Senator Gardiner) agreed to-

That the time for bringing up the report of the select committee be extended to Thursday, 18th September.

page 4181

QUESTION

LINESMEN’S QUARTERS, FITZROY, KIMBERLEY

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

– On the 5th instant, Senator Lynch asked the following question : -

When may it be expected that the linemen’s quarters atFitzroy, Kimberley, Western Australia, will be completed?

I have now ascertained that it is anticipated the work will be completed early this month.

page 4181

QUESTION

GRANTS TO TASMANIA

Senator DUNCAN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

What agreements have been entered into from time to time between the Commonwealth and the State of Tasmania for the payment of moneys by the Commonwealth to that state?
What has been the amount paid under such agreements in each year, and what is the total amount that has been paid?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– The answers are: -

Four Tasmanian Grant Acts have been passed, viz., Nos. 13 of 1912, 22 of 1913, 12 of 1922, and 13 of 1923.
Under the authority of these acts, the following payments have been made: -

page 4181

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT LINE OF STEAMERS

Senator KINGSMILL:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it true, as stated in the daily press of the8th instant, that four Commonwealth Line cargo steamers have “been laid up in Sydney owing to shortage of cargo, and that to maintain September sailings from the United Kingdom to Australia, the Line has chartered a British steamer, the Volumnia, running under British articles, at a cost only about half that for Australian vessels?
If so, will the Government take into immediate and serious consideration this obviously economical method of conducting the shipping services of the Commonwealth?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– Inquiries are being made, and the honorable senator will be further advised as early as possible.

page 4181

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK BOARD

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

When does the Government propose to appoint the new hoard to control the affairs of the Commonwealth Bank?
Is it a fact that all State Savings Bank business in Queensland, as well as a certain amount of ordinary banking, is done by the Commonwealth Bank?
If so, will the Government see that at least two of the members of the board are elected from Queensland?
Will the Government indicate to the board, when appointed, the desirableness of increasing the savings bank rate½ per cent. per annum, in order that depositors may be in as good a position as when dealing with State Savings Banks?
Are negotiations with theprivate banks being conducted now with regard to financing the current year’s wool clip, or arc they hung up pending the appointment of the newboard?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– The answers are: -

It is expected that the new board will be appointed within a few days.
Yes.
The board will be appointed in accordance with the provisions of the act.
The rate of interest to be allowed cannot be decided by the Government, that being a matter for the board alone.
Until the new board is appointed, the existing board of directors of the Note Issue Department will continue to be responsible for the business of that department. It has agreed, temporarily, to increase the note issue by £5,000,000 for the purpose of assisting in the handling of primary products. The business is, therefore, not being hung up.

page 4182

QUESTION

DUTY ON COPRA

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice- -

What is the present export duty per ton on copra exported from the Mandated Territory of New Guinea?
What is the present export duty per ton on copra exported from Papua?
Is the Minister prepared to take the necessary steps to reduce the export duty per ton on copra produced inthe Mandated Territory to that imposed upon copra exported from Papua?
If not, why not?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow : -

25s.per ton.
The Papuan export duty on copra was originally 25s. per ton, but owing to the slump in the copra trade subsequent to the war, the duty was temporarily reduced to15s. per ton. It is now proposed that the export duty, instead of being at a specific rate per ton, will be an ad valorem duty of 10 per centum; the value to be gazetted monthly by the Treasurer, and to be the London market value at the time of the gazettal. The amount on which duty will he payable will be the amount by which the London price exceeds £20. 3 and 4. The matter will receive consideration.

page 4182

QUESTION

CANBERRA BUILDING LEASES

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

asked the Minister for Homeand Territories, upon notice -

When will the lithographs of the Canberra building sites proposed to be leased at the first sale be available?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– Plans of the building sites to be sold at Canberra have been prepared, and will be printed as soon as the framing of the conditions of sale. which are at present under consideration, has been brought to finality. The plans will be available in ample time for the guidance of intending buyers.

page 4182

QUESTION

STATEMENTS BY MR. MARKS, M.P

Senator McDOUGALL:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

Has his attention been drawn to statementsin the press recently, alleged to have been made by Mr. Walter Marks, M.H.R., in reference tomatters of Australian policy?
Has this gentleman any warrant or authority from the Government for making such statements ?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– The Prime Minister has supplied the following answers : -

Yes.
The honorable gentleman referred to is in no way authorized to express the Government’s views on matters of Australian policy, and the remarks attributed to him are clearly the expression of opinions of a public man on matters of public interest.

page 4182

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motion (by Senator Pearce) agreed to-

That leave of absence for one month be granted to Senators Givens, Guthrie, and Ogden on account of urgent business.

page 4182

WINE EXPORT BOUNTY BILL

Bill read a third time.

page 4182

CASE OF LIEUTENANT W. W. PAINE

Select Committee’s Report

Senator Grant, as chairman, brought up the report of the select committee appointed to inquire into and report upon the case of First Lieutenant W. W. Paine, together with minutes of proceedings and minutes of evidence.

Ordered -

That the report be printed.

page 4182

TARIFF BOARD BILL

Motion (by Senator Wilson) proposed -

That the report be adopted.

Amendment (by Senator Pearce) agreed to -

That the bill be recommitted for the reconsideration of clause 3.

In committee (Recommittal) : Clause 3 -

Section 11 of the principal Act is amended by inserting at the end thereof the following sub-sections: - “ (4.) Inquiries conducted by the Board relating to -

any proposal for improving the condition of any primary or secondary industry ; or shall be held inpublic. “ (7.) The Board shall have all evidence taken in connexion with inquiries under the Industries Preservation Act taken on oath, andfiled with the documents relating to the case.”

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

.- I move-

That paragraph c, proposed new sub-section 4, be left out.

In the committee stage, when through a misapprehension I withdrew this amendment, I partly indicated that I considered the power given by paragraph c absolutely unnecessary. I have now to add that I consider the paragraph irrelevant to the bill. If it were a measure to constitute a commission to inquire into matters of industry and commerce generally, such a paragraph might rightly find a place in it, but it is quite irrelevant to a bill which is merely for the creation of a Tariff Board, and for the definition of the powers to be conferred on that board, having always in mind the fact that the powers conferred are to be exercised only in connexion with tariff matters. During the first part of this session this board had to approach Parliament to allow its numbers to be increased so that it would be in a better position to deal with all the work placed upon its shoulders. That being the case, if we place still further work on its shoulders, what is it to do? The paragraph should not find a place in the bill, nor should inquiries of the sort alluded to be within the scope of a Tariff Board. It is altogether distinct from its functions, and if the Government wish to obtain information on these more or less general subjects which have nothing to do with the tariff, they should appoint some other authority. I have yet to learn that the gentlemen comprising the board, well acquainted as they are with tariff matters, have any special qualifications for the duties sought to be conferred upon them under this paragraph. For these reasons, which are brief but cogent, I have moved that paragraph c be left out.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am glad this clause, which is the most important in the bill, has been recommitted. The views expressed by Senator Kingsmill are not sufficiently liberal tomeet with my approval. I intend to ask the committee to consider a further amendment which is of a very comprehensive character, and which will include the proposal submitted by Senator Kingsmill. I propose to move that the clause shall read -

Inquiries conducted by the board shall be held in public, and the evidence at such inquiries shall be taken in public on oath.

Senator Pearce:

– In what portion of the clause does the honorable senator propose to insert those words ?

Senator Kingsmill:

– I have moved an amendment which is now before the committee.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– The amendment before the committee is that paragraph c of proposed new sub-section 4 be left out.

Senator Pearce:

– That is the only portion of the clause before the committee.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– If that is so my amendment is in order, and I shall be able to say all I desire at this stage. On a recent occasion, when this matter engaged the attention of the Senate, evidence was submitted by various organizations to show that the proposal contained in this clause enables the board to hold its meetings in private, and to quietly, effectually, and permanently ruin the businesses of certain citizens. No attempt whatever was made by honorable senators opposite to disprove the arguments which were then advanced. I intimated that the paper-box manufacturers, those engaged in the printingtrade, the members of the Adelaide Chamber of Commerce, and the members of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, had a strong objection to the present method of conducting inquiries. Doubtless the people of the Commonwealth are pledged tohigh duties for a considerable period, and the supporters of a protectionist policy favour such a procedure. merely to make certain that the bulk of taxation shall be raised from duties on imported goods.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Why not speak to the amendment before the committee ?

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am doing so, and am endeavouring to convince honorable senators of the necessity for all’ inquiries conducted by the board being held in public. Only recently I stated that at least four manufacturers in New South Wales were compelled to discontinue the particular businesses in which they were engaged owing to the action of the board. Just imagine a board having the impertinence to allow certain goods to enter the Commonwealth free of duty for only one day. Proper notice of such action should have been given to the public to enable every one who so desired the opportunity to import free of duty the goods they required. Whether the duties imposed be high or low, they should be fixed by Parliament, so that the interests of every one may be safeguarded. If that were done, every one would know the penalty to be paid by those who. dare to import from countries in which low wages are paid. Why should prospective or present manufacturers have the right to confer in secret with the board and suggest the imposition of higher duties? Under the tariff it is distinctly provided that importers of motor cars shall pay import duties ranging from £50 to £70 on each car, which means that the price to the purchaser is increased to that extent. Those who purchase motor cars realize what they are doing, and objectionable as the duty is, it is not nearly so objectionable as is this system under which one is suddenly confronted with the fact that higher duties have been imposed as the result of recommendations made by the board. The same position arises whether the goods dealt with are motor cars or pianos. I am informed that a certain religious denomination intends to import a very large bell, costing probably £3,000.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall:

– The honorable senator must confine his remarks to the amendment, which seeks to delete paragraph c of the proposed new sub-section 4.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The entire bill is utterly objectionable to me. The Tariff Board may be an inseparable part of our fiscal system, but I know of no other pro tectionist country where it is considered necessary to have a board of its description. I shall support the amendment, which will probably improve the measure, though only to a slight extent.

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

– If anything in the bill should be retained it is the paragraph under discussion. I understand that, when I was speaking yesterday, some disappointment was felt by several honorable senators opposite because in my references to the earlier speeches of certain honorable gentlemen concerning this measure, I singled out ex-Senator Pratten, now Minister for Trade and Customs, Senator Wilson, and the Government Whip in this chamber, . Senator Drake-Brockman. I entirely overlooked opinions expressed previously by Senator Crawford, now an Honorary Minister in this Government. I also ignored Senator Foll, and failed to take note of what Senator Reid had said. I propose now to make good that omission. Appropriately enough their remarks on a former occasion had to deal with this identical section of the act, and although Senator Crawford did not employ language quite so strong as that used by Senator Grant yesterday, his views, nevertheless, were emphatically expressed. It appears that the board went to Queensland to inquire into the sugar industry.

Senator Crawford:

– The board did not go to Queensland.

Senator GARDINER:

– I accept the honorable senator’s correction, but the board did conduct an investigation into the condition of the Queensland sugar industry, and the honorable senators whose names I have mentioned had something very pertinent to say about that inquiry. This is what Senator Foll said -

The sugar industry is the first primary in dustry concerning which the board has been asked to give advice, and it has stabbed it in the back in the most treacherous way possible.

That is almost as strong as the language used by Senator Grant yesterday -

I say that deliberately …. The mem bers of the board have shown themselves to be merely the tools of the manufacturers. . . The great primary industry which calls for protection is denied it by the southern board of manufacturers’ representatives.

I am sorry that Senator Foll is not in his place this afternoon to hear this, because he might be able to explain why he is now supporting the bill. I agree with

Senator Wilson that something has happened to convert quite a number of honorable gentlemen opposite in connexion with this measure. During Senator Foil’s speech, the then Minister (Senator Earle) in an interjection said -

They, meaning the board, have been consistent protectionists, so far as primary and secondary industries are concerned.

Replying to this interjection, Senator Foll said -

Do you think it was a mistake for them to pick out the most unfavorable part of the reports of the royal commission?

Then Senator Crawford intervened with -

Unconscious southern bias.

There we have opinions fairly stated. I wish to make it quite clear that in anything I have said on this bill, I have not been attacking members of the board, but the principle. I come now to Senator Crawford. I find he said this -

Nothing could be more misleading than this statement of the position by the Tariff Board.

Such condemnation carries much weight, because Senator Crawford has a reputation for choosing his words carefully. Therefore, when he declared that nothing could be more misleading than the statement of the position by the Tariff Board, all who listened to him were disposed to believe him. Again, I quote Senator Crawford -

I shall look with extreme doubt upon any reports which the Tariff Board may in future submit regarding other industries.

In view of this definite statement from an honorable gentleman who is now an Honorary Minister of the Government, is it wise that the board should be permitted to make reports regarding other industries? Senator Crawford went on to say-

I had great hopes of the Tariff Board when the legislation constituting it was passed, but my hopes have certainly not been realized.

I am sorry for Senator Crawford. Personally I did not share his hopes concerning the operations of the board. I believed that its influence would be sought by business people who wished to have another dip into the pockets of the people, and experience has shown that I was right. 1 am not saying, of course, that the individual members of the board have done wrong. I refer to the general principle, and our experience of protection. Ex-Senator Earle, as I have shown, declared that all members of the board were good protectionists. In my opinion members of a Tariff Board ought not to hold strong political views. Senator Crawford went on to say -

A few days after the application was forwarded to it by the Minister, although it was informed that further evidence would be tendered if it was required, the board left for Western Australia. It will be found that the report is dated, Perth, 30th September, but investigations in connexion with this matter were not made where the sugar industry is carried on, but in Melbourne, or during the journey from Melbourne to Perth.

Senator Earle said ;

I am satisfied the board came to its conclusions honestly.

Senator Crawford replied ;

The report bristles with mistakes.

That is very severe condemnation. Later, Senator Crawford said -

I intend to make some reference to statements in the report of the Tariff Board, which, to me, is a most surprising document. When the proposed duty of l?d. per pound was referred to the board, I thought it would make an exhaustive inquiry before reporting to Parliament; but, so far as one can gather from this document, the only investigation the board has made has been to read the report of the two Royal Commissions one of which inquired into the industry in1911-12, and the other in 1919. The only quotations made from those two reports are portions that tell against the industry -

Senator Foll:

– Specially picked out.

Senator Lynch:

– But the board has recommended an increased duty.

Senator CRAWFORD:
NAT

– Nothing like the increased duty necessary;but half a loaf is better than no bread, and we must accept it.

I think I have read sufficient of what Senator Crawford said. I do not know whether I can call him unbiased in regard to sugar. He is always very sweet on any proposal to place a big duty on foreign sugar. As the burden is spread over so many people, it does not press very heavily upon any individual. But it certainly presses very heavily upon the whole community. Senator Reid, in the same debate, had this to say -

I believed in the appointment of such a board because I thought it would make direct investigation into an industry concerning which it was asked to give advice. But the Tariff Board, instead of making personal investigations into the sugar industry, has submitted recommendations based upon old reports of Commissions that inquired into the industry. Parliament did not intend that the Tariff Board should frame its recommendations upon second-hand information.

Simple as the amendment may seem, it is, perhaps, an all-important one. Although, the bill is bad, the Government can count upon my support in preventing its improvement in this small particular. Let the bill be the bill of the Government; let it stand with all its defects. The worse it is, the sooner will it be removed. Let the board have as wide a scope as it is possible to give it to do its work thoroughly and well.

Senator WILSON:
(Honorary Minister · South Australia · NAT

– I ask Senator Kingsmill not to press his amendment. On the Tariff Board there are gentlemen who, because of their experience, can give valuable advice upon important matters. The wording of paragraph c is -

Any proposal for improving the condition of any primary or secondary industry.

– Is there not also a Board of Trade?

Senator KINGSMILL:

– I believe that there is. It appears to me that the gist of the Minister’s defence of the paragraph is this - “ We have been committing mistakes for a considerable time. Therefore, it has become a habit, and we ask you not to do anything that will prejudice the habit.” I do not think he has put forward reasons which would justify my withdrawal of the amendment.

Question - That the words proposed to be left out be left out (Senator Kings- mill’s amendment) - put. The committee divided.

AYES: 10

NOES: 8

Majority . . . . 2

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Senator Wilson) proposed -

That sub-section 7 be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following new subsection : - “ 7. Evidence taken by the board in connexion with any inquiries under the Customs Tariff (Industries Preservation) Act 1921-22, shall be on oath, and shall be reduced to writing and filed with the documents relating to the inquiry.”

Senator Wilson. - Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported with further amendments.

Standing and Sessional Orders suspended .

Motion (by Senator Pearce) proposed -

That the report be adopted.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not desire to delay the passage of the bill, but I should like a clearcut expression of opinion from the Senate as to whether or not the board should be allowed to hold its meetings in secret. I therefore move as an amendment -

That the bill be recommitted for the reconsideration of clause 3.

My object is to so amend sub-section 4 that it will read: - “ Inquiries conducted by the board shall be held in public, and evidence of such inquiries shall be taken in public on oath.”

SenatorFindley. - I do not oppose the amendment, but I am under the impression that a similar amendment was submitted in committee last evening.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Sena tor Newland). - The Senate has no cognizance of what has taken place in committee except in so far as the proceedings of the committee have been reported to it. Senator Grant is in order in moving as an amendment that the clause be recommitted.

Question - That the amendment be agreed to - put. The Senate divided.

AYES: 5

NOES: 13

Majority . . . . 8

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 4188

PAPUA BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 10th September (vide page 4100), on motion by Senator Pearce -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The methods by which the affairs of the Commonwealth Territories are administered make one wonder whether one is still living in the dark ages. During my recent visit to the tropics I had no opportunity of making myself familiar with any considerable portion of those Territories, and, therefore, my personal knowledge of them is necessarily limited. It is somewhat interesting to take a glance at what has happened in recent years. It will be remembered that when, in 1883, the Queensland Government took the far-reaching step of annexing the whole of the southern coast of New Guinea from the 141st meridian right to East Cape, for some reason which has never been explained to me, but which was probably due to the secret diplomacy then so prevalent in Europe, the British Government disallowed the annexation. Fortunately, however, wiser counsels prevailed in 1884, during which year, Great Britain decided to establish a protectorate over the southern coast of

New Guinea from the 141st to the 151st meridian. True to British traditions, having proclaimed itself a protector of the natives, Great Britain a few years later proclaimed the Territory as a British possession. I invite attention to what the British Government did at that time. It did not do what the Australian Government has done in connexion with the Mandated Territories. It gave the white residents of Papua a semblance of local government by appointing a lieutenantgovernor, an executive council, and a legislative council, and, furthermore, that most necessary and appropriate adjunct, a Native Regulation Board. I suppose that Great Britain was influenced to do this by its experience in America. When the people of England attempted to enforce upon the American colonists certain laws which were distasteful to them, the colonists were strong enough, numerous enough, and determined enough to declare that they would tolerate no interference in their government. The insane attitude taken up by Great Britain at that time lost to the Empire, presumably for all time, the whole of the country which now forms the United States of America. The form of Government granted by Great Britain to British New Guinea would not appeal to the average Australian, who insists, very properly, upon full adult suffrage, and although it may not be wise at the present time to confer full adult suffrage upon the aborigines of New Guinea, I hope that at the earliest possible moment the white people of Papua will have the same voice in their government as is permitted to the people of the various states of the Commonwealth.

Senator Cox:

– How many white people are there in Papua?

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I presume that the population is now in the neighbourhood of 2,000. According to the last figures supplied by the Commonwealth Statistician there were 1,264 white people in Papua on the 4th April, 1921, and on the day on which the census was taken the steamer Mataram was in Papuan waters with 79 passengers and crew. The point I make is that the moment the British Government proclaimed British New Guinea as a British possession, it gave the country some form of local government, a step which we have not yet taken in connexion with our Mandated Territory in late German New Guinea. Under the Papua Act of 1905, the Commonwealth accorded to the residents of Papua some form of local government, and now this amending bill proposes, very properly, to give those people additional representation. They reside in a country considerably larger than the State of Victoria. Men who have visited Papua assure us that it is immensely fertile. We are occasionally informed that oil has been discovered there. We know that there are excellent timber resources in the Territory, and that some of its rivers are possibly as large as all the Australian rivers put together. For instance, the Fly River, which has not yet been fully explored, is a considerable stream. LieutenantGovernor Murray is probably one of the best men who could be secured to fill the position he holds. I do not think we have heard any complaints about his administration. I am pleased to see that the principles advocated by Henry George, to which I occasionally make reference in this chamber, are in operation in Papua. No land can be alienated in fee simple. The rental of the leases is assessed on the unimproved capital value, and is subject to re-assessment at fixed periods. It reads like a paragraph or two out of Progress and Poverty. Unfortunately, the ideas that prevail in the Commonwealth in regard to Customs duties and taxation are also in operation in Papua, but I am hopeful that with an extension of the franchise even they may undergo some modification’. According to the last figures, which are two years old, the. amount of Customs and excise duties paid in Papua is £53,196, while the land revenue amounts to £6,682. The land revenue is thus approximately one-ninth of the total Customs and excise revenue, whereas in Australia the “owners” are treated more leniently, for we collect only. £2,000,000 from them as against £36,000,000 collected from Customs and excise duties. I am pleased that the Government proposes to increase the strength of the Executive Council in Papua, and afford increased, representation to the white residents there, but I am at a complete loss to understand why it persistently refuses to extend the- same concession to other Australians who are situated just across the mountains of Papua. That, however, is another ques. tion on which I may have something to say at another time. Meanwhile I welcome the additional representation proposed to be given to the white residents of Papua. The proposal does not go far enough. If the white residents of our Territory were given full adult suffrage they would merely secure the same rights and privileges that are accorded to the white people of the Commonwealth, and when the bill reaches the committee stage I shall ask honorable senators to widen the franchise applying in Papua. The time has completely vanished when any intelligent community should continue to limit representation in this way. Every white man and woman in Papua should have the opportunity afforded to every mau and woman in Australia. The residents of the Territory are undoubtedly of that most enterprising and virile type of people who are prepared to go into the wilds and do the actual pioneering work, and yet we are npt willing to extend to them a form- of government we ourselves enjoy. It is strange that those who have only been quite recently enfranchised should be most reluctant to extend the franchise to others. What is there about the Papuan white residents that we should be afraid to entrust them with the right to govern themselves? They are of exactly the same type that is to be found in the various states, and although all sorts of disasters were predicted when the franchise in Australia was widened to adult suffrage, nothing serious happened. Even in Great Britain there are tens of thousands of people who have no voice in the government of the country. In Australia, where some consider the franchise to be on a fairly liberal basis, there are persons who are justifiably prepared to advocate that all males and females attaining the age of eighteen years should be allowed to exercise the franchise. If we are willing to accept young men of eighteen years to carry arms in defence of our country we should allow them to have a voice in its government. I do not intend to oppose the bill, although the proposal of the Government in this instance is quite inadequate, but I shall endeavour in committee to move certain amendments, which, if agreed to, will considerably liberalize the franchise.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Glauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Senator Gardiner:

– When such an important bill as this is under consideration I think we should have a . quorum. [Quorum formed.]

Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 -

Section twenty-nine of the principal act is amended by omitting sub-sections (2.) and (3.) thereof and inserting in their stead the following sub-sections : - “ (2.) The Legislative Council shall consist of-

the Lieutenant-Governor;

the official members of the Executive Council ; and

five non-official members who shall be nominated by the LieutenantGovernor and appointed by the Go vernor-General. “ (3.) One of the non-official members of the Legislative Council shall be nominated by the Lieutenant-Governor as representing the interests of the Christian missions in the Territory.”

Section proposed to be amended - (1.) There shall be a Legislative Council for the Territory. (2,) The Legislative Council shall consist of theLieutenant-Governor and of the members of the Executive Council, together with such non-official members as the GovernorGeneral appoints under the seal of the Commonwealth, or as the Lieutenant-Governor, in pursuance of instructions from the GovernorGeneral, appoints under the public seal of the Territory. (3.) So long as the white resident population is less than two thousand the number of nonofficial members shall be three; but when the white resident population is two thousand or more an additional non-official member shall be appointed for each one thousand of such population in excess of one thousand.

Provided that the total number of non-official members shall not exceed twelve.

Question - That the words proposed to be left out be left out (Senator Grant’s amendment) - put. The committee divided.

AYES: 5

NOES: 12

Majority … … 7

In division:

AYES

NOES

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall:

– I cannot help that.

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 11 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

page 4192

WIRELESS AGREEMENT BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 5th September (vide page 4015), on motion by Senator Crawford -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

– This is one of the most important measures that has come before the Senate. Without pretence, it is designed to relieve the Amalgamated Wireless Company of obligations entered into by it with the Commonwealth Government. Some years ago a company was formed, with a capital of £1,000,000 in 1,000,000 shares, of which the Commonwealth Government took 500,001 shares, so as to have a. majority on the share register. Seven directors were appointed, three by the Commonwealth, three by the company, with a chairman to be elected by the other six directors or appointed by arbitration. Although the Amalgamated Wireless Company was apparently an Australian concern,, it was really linked up with the Marconi Company. Need I remind honorable senators of the suspicious circumstances surrounding wireless negotiations in. recent years, not only in Australia, but also in GreatBritain? In the Mother Country the reputations of a number of men were impugned, and what happened in Australia showed clearly enough that the influence of the wireless combine was powerful and far-reaching. Many years ago the Commonwealth Government had presented to it a wireless patent system which was operated for some time under the direction of Father Shaw. Shortly afterwards the Telefunken Company brought an action against the Commonwealth for an infringement of its patent rights. Then the Marconi Company became linked up in the action, and finally the latter was left to continue the fight. When the case came before the High Court, that tribunal declared that, as it was a highly technical dispute, independent evidence of a technical character was necessary to enable it to decide whether the Commonwealth system was an infringement of the Telefunken or Marconi patents. In my judgment all these “companies are in reality the Marconi Company operating in different countries. The Marconi Company, as I have said, took action for an infringement by the Commonwealth Government of its patent rights. That action came before the High Court of Australia, which - decided that it must have information from an authoritative and competent source. The gentleman selected - Mr. George Swinburne - was, perhaps, one of the highest authorities in Great Britain. He came to Australia. He inspected the Commonwealth system of wireless. He could not wait for the trial, but he left sworn declarations stating that the Commonwealth system was not an infringement of the Marconi system, but was a 33 per cent, better system. Had those sworn affidavits been placed before the High Court the case would have been at an end, and the Marconi Company would have had to pay the whole of the expenses, including those incurred in bringing Mr. Swinburne from England to Australia. But what happened? On the 5th September, 1914, the Government led by Sir Joseph Cook was defeated at the polls, and on the 17th September, 1914, the Government led by Mr. Andrew Fisher took office. In the interval between the 5th September and the 17th September, the retiring Government, through its Attorney-General (Mr. Glynn), entered into an agreement with the Marconi Company, agreeing to pay to that company £5,000 for certain patent rights, each party to defray its own costs in the action. The Minister has access to the files, and he can correct me if I am wrong in saying that that agreement was finalized after the defeat of the Government, and whilst it was in possession of tha sworn affidavits of the expert who was sent from Great Britain. I can imagine the excuse being put forward that we received certain concessions from the company in that they handed over to us their patent rights. To that I say that the Commonwealth Government paid to the Marconi Company £5,000, and bore its share of the expenses - which the company would have had to bear if the case had been carried to a conclusion in the High Court - in return for patent rights that expired within six weeks. That is one of my earlier recollections of the Marconi Company in its dealings with Australia. No term was fixed by the agreement that was entered into by the Government led by Mr. Hughes. In 1921, Mr. Hughes brought before Parliament an agreement which he wanted Parliament to pass towards the end of the session. The proposal was fought, and eventually the agreement was referred to a parliamentary committee, of which the present Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce) was a member, and upon which there were members of the National party, the Country party, and the Labour party. The committee rejected the agreement and submitted a fresh one, which was signed in March, 1922. By clause 5 of the agreement the company was obliged -

to construct, maintain, and operate in Australia, the necessary stations and equipmentfor a direct commercial wireless service between Australia and the United Kingdom.
To provide and operate a system of feeder stations for wireless connexion between the main high-power stations and the capital cities of all the states.
To equip and organize the feeder stations so as to provide communication with merchant ships around the coast of Australia.
To arrange for the operation of suitable corresponding stations in the United Kingdom.
To provide the main trunk stations in Australia and the United Kingdom within two years from the date of this agreement.
To arrange within two years from the date of this agreement for the erection and operation of a station in Canada capable of commercial communication with the high-power station in Australia, and so equipped as to afford facilities for distributing traffic throughout North America.
To take over, within one month after signing this agreement, the existing Commonwealth radio stations.

It had also to take over many other things belonging to the Commonwealth. Although two and a half years have elapsed since the signing of that agreement, the company has done nothing in the way of carrying out the covenants to which it agreed. I want honorable senators to realize that if they pass this bill they will put that agreement out of existence. The Commonwealth Government, on the other hand, has paid to the company under the agreement £112,000. I should like the Minister to tell honorable senators what the Commonwealth has received in return for that sum. I assert that the company has not done anything that it covenanted to do. It has taken over all our wireless systems, and the whole of the money that we agreed to pay under the agreement. Under clause 7 of the agreement, the Commonwealth has paid to the company £139,959, while the amounts that have been paid to the Commonwealth by the company total £51,000. The Government, therefore, is £88,000 out of pocket at the present time. The company has failed to observe its part of the contract, as the schedule to the bill will show. It reads -

And whereas at the time of the making of the principal agreement the parties thereto believed that the British Government would be ready and willing to grant licences for the erection and operation of a trunk station and other stations in the United Kingdom for communication with Australia, and whereas the British Government refuses to grant licences for the erection and operation of commercial wireless stations in the United Kingdom with a view to communication with Australia, and the Marconi Company is by reason thereof unable to obtain the necessary licence to erect or operate the said trunk station in the United Kingdom for that purpose, and whereas the Commonwealth is desirous that the company should (notwithstanding the fact that the Marconi Company is prevented at the present time from providing a main trunk station in the United Kingdom) proceed with the erection of the main trunk station in Australia, and has requested the company to endeavour to arrange with the Marconi Company to proceed with the erection of such station and the company has agreed to do so provided the company is relieved from certain obligations under the principal agreement, now in consideration of the premises it is hereby agreed as follows : -

That bears out my statement that the company desires to be relieved from its obligations under the previous agreement.

Senator Crawford:

– What would be the use of erecting a high-power station in Australia if there were not a reciprocal station overseas?

Senator GARDINER:

This invention relates to an improvement in wireless telegraphy and telephony, and is based on rellection phenomena. By means of it the waves can be directed and confined to a predetermined direction, and reception can also be limited to waves proceeding from one direction. The advantages are as follows: - (1) Greater range of transmission; (2) Greater freedom from interference between stations working in the vicinity of each other; (3) The possibility of accurately determining the direction in which a transmitting station lies; (4) A lessening of all disturbances caused by the natural electrical perturbations of the atmosphere.

I have quoted the principal part of the specification. Application was made on the 2nd May, 1919, in Australia, by the Marconi Company, for “ improvements in reflectors for use in wireless telegraphy and telephony.” The description furnished by the company contains the following paragraph: -

The invention relates to improvements in reflectors used with transmitters and receivers in wireless telegraphy and telephony. The use of a reflector for directing the energy of a wireless transmitter in any desired direction has been many . times suggested. The advantages to be expected from thus directing the energy in the desired direction (such as illcrease of range, avoidance of interference of all kinds, and comparative secrecy) are so great that it is rather surprising that since the early work of Hertz and Marconi, no practical results have been obtained by the use of reflectors.

I would point out that the English patent was refused on the ground of want of novelty. Sir Oliver Lodge, in 1910, I think, had been conducting a great . many experiments in relation to parabolic reflectors for the purpose of transmitting low amplitude waves. I understand that they were working from below 10 metres. Under the present system it is proposed to use waves of 100 metres. The position is that the beam system is not new, but was known prior to the appointment by this Parliament of a committee to go into the subject of the wireless agreement that was submitted to Parliament in 1921. It is remarkable that there was no mention made of this invention at that time.

Members of the Parliamentary Committee will remember that, during its investigations, the matter of the elimination of statics received very serious consideration, and caused a good deal of doubt in their minds. The Marconi people boldly declared, “This can all be obviated. The easiest way is to introduce the Levy filtering device.” It was said that this would eliminate statics, and do away with fading, so that we could easily secure the transmission that was desired. The committee, at that time, had the good fortune to have before it Mr. Snoaden, who had just, come from London. He took the wind out of the. Marconi Company’s sails by saying that the Levy device had been offered to the Radio Communication Company, which had refused it because, on being tested, it proved quite inefficient. Naturally the Marconi Company denied that the device was of no value; but when the agreement was signed, this device passed into the limbo of forgotten things.

When the committee began to look into the first agreement, it found several points> to which it took serious objection. ‘ My friend, Senator Drake-Brockman, pointed out, in particular, that, under (he agreement originally proposed, the Amalgamated Wireless Company was to take over the whole of the shore stations belonging to the Commonwealth for nothing. This only needed enunciation to enable every member of the committee to realize that the company was taking advantage of the Commonwealth. After due deliberation a sub-committee was appointed, consisting of Senator DrakeBrockman, Mr. Brennan, and myself. Senator Drake-Brockman drafted a clause which became clause 6 of the agreement, as recommended by the Parliamentary Committee. This clause states -

The sites, buildings, masts, plant and other assets of the stations, to be taken over by the company in accordance with paragraph (h) of clause 5 of this agreement, shall he taken over at a valuation to be made by a committee including two representatives of the company and two representatives of the Commonwealth, with an independent chairman, to bc agreed upon by the other four representatives or a majority of them, and in default of agreement to be determined by arbitration- in the manner provided by clause 20’ of this agreement; the basis of valuation shall bc the value of the assets for the purpose of supplying the new service to bo undertaken by the company in pursuance of this agreement. The amount of the valuation shall be credited to the Commonwealth in part payment for the 500,001 shares to he allotted to the Commonwealth, and shall be deducted from Che last payments of capital to be made by the Commonwealth.

That committee has not functioned. The Government, so I am given to under- stand, has time after time appointed its representatives, but the other side say, “ We are not in a position to carry on.” They have never carried on. There has not been a valuation of these assets, which are worth between £150,000’ and £200,000. Three years have passed, and practically nothing has been done to the shore stations erected by the Commonwealth from 1912 to 1914, in which year the last was erected.

Senator Drake-Brockman:

– That means that the representatives of the Government on the board of directors have not been carrying out their job.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– That is very obvious.

Senator Foll:

– The Commonwealth Government has a majority on the board of. directors-

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– I do not think that at the present moment the Commonwealth Government has a majority on that board. I understand that as the board is now constituted there are on it three representatives of Amalgamated Wireless, an independent member in the person of Mr. Hughes, and two Government representatives.

Senator Crawford:

– There are three Government representatives.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Where are they? Are there three Government representatives on the board at the present moment?

Senator Crawford:

– No. One of the three has died.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– A member of a board who is in Heaven cannot exercise his vote. Senator DrakeBrockman is quite correct in saying that the Government representatives on the directorate have not been properly functioning. The position is becoming almost a scandal. These people declared that the shore stations were worth nothing; - that they could not function; but as a result of careful inquiries this afternoon I find that the company continues using them, although practically nothing has since been done to any of them.. The Government do not know definitely what the company is prepared to pay for them. If the agreement was worth anything, this matter should have been settled long ago. I do not say that the company should by now have made any payment for the stations, because the intention was that the amount to be paid should be deducted from the last payment due by the Government to the company. However, the company has strung on theGovernment and the departments until I do not think that at the present time any one in the Commonwealth Service knows what the actual position is. It is a state of affairs that should not be continued. When we were considering the original agreement the proposal was -

The Commonwealth to have control in general meetings; (b) The Commonwealth directors to have exclusive veto powers; and
The company directors to control commercial and technical management.

No member of this Parliament was prepared to agree to that proposal, and the result was that it was altered., the Commonwealth retaining its full advantages under paragraphs a andb, and the company surrendering its advantages under c. At the same time it was agreed that an independent member of the board should be appointed by the vote of the representatives of both parties. But when it was proposed to elect to that position a certain gentleman closely associated with Amalgamated Wireless, the Government were definitely told by many of their supporters that such a choice would not be agreeable to them; and, as we all know, the then Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), to fill the gap for the. time being, took the position. If not in a legal sense, at any rate, in a moral sense, Amalgamated Wireless has practically ignored the agreement. I do not want it to be supposed that the representatives of the Government have not agreed to everything that has been done, but I suggest thatthe agreement has not been carried out in the spirit in which members of the committee of Parliament expected it to be carried out. The agreement now before the Senate provides -

The agreement shall have no force or effect and shall not he binding on either party unless and until it is approved by the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia.

But when I turn to the end of the agreement, I find that it has already been signed for and on behalf of the Commonwealth of Australia, and that Parliament has to accept or reject it in globo. Personally I shall reject it in globo.

The establishment of a beam station has been under consideration by the

BritishGovernment, and there has been considerable talk about the action of that Government. In this connexion let me call attention to one or two features of the agreement between theBritish Government and Marconi’s Wireless TelegraphCompany. A British Treasury minute, dated the 28th July, 1924, covering this agreement, says -

The station is to be capable of communicating at a speed of 100 five-letter words per ninute each way (exclusive of any repetitions necessary to ensure accuracy) during a daily average of eighteen hours. Upon’ its completion, the company are to give a demonstration by actual working for seven consecutive days that it fulfils this condition, and if theengineer-in-chief of the Post Office is satisfied with the test, one-half of the costof the station is to be paid to the company. The station is then tobe handed over to the Postma ster-G eneral .

Our agreement with Amalgamated Wireless contains the following provision as to service : -

Providing to the satisfaction of the representatives of the Commonwealth on the board of directors of thecompany for the erection in Australia, of a main trunk station capable of providing (as soon as a suitable corresponding station has been erected in the United Kingdom and/or Canada) a commercial wireless service to communicate with such corresponding stations, with a traffic capacity as regards each of such corresponding stations of at least 21,600 words per day each way for 300 days per year, at an estimated capital cost not exceeding £120,000.

Senator Crawford:

– Clause 21 provides -

Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to prejudice or limit in any way any right or power of the Commonwealth to acquire: on just terms compulsorily or otherwise any share or interest of. any person in the company.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– In effect, that means winding up the company. In what way would the Government deal with those who hold 500,000 shares in the company? Are the Government to take over the company by compulsorily winding it up?

Senator Crawford:

– If the Government took over the shares held by others it would then be a Commonwealth concern.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– It can only be done by compulsorily winding up the company, and buying out, at a price, the shareholders.

Senator Crawford:

– The power is there.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Yes, if the Government want to pay the cost. I do not intend to discuss the legal aspect of the question, but merely to state my opinion on the proposal as submitted to the Senate. The Commonwealth was well advised in the early days. When, on the 2nd September, 1905, the first Wireless Telegraphy Bill was introduced, the Minister in charge of it said that its main object was to make a government monopoly of wireless telegraphy in the Commonwealth. If that course had been continued, the Government would have done well. We have gone a long way beyond that. In other countries progress is being made, but in Australia we have not a board of experts, or even a single expert who can be regarded as an authority on wireless telegraphy or telephony. I can hardly imagine a subject that is more vital to the Commonwealth than that under discussion.. In 1854the first patent was granted to Lindsay, of Dundee; who took out a patent for transmitting telegraph messages through and across water without submerged wires, the water being available as a connecting and conducting medium. He carried out successful experiments across the Tay River. In 1872 a patent was. granted in the United States of America to Mahlan Loomis for the utilization of natural electricity from elevated points for telegraphic purposes. He carried out several successful experiments on the Blue Ridge mountains in Virginia, but he had to discontinue his experiments owing to the lack of funds. Inventor after inventor has come into prominence, and to-day we are dealing with a force far exceeding in wonder and extent any power of the gods of mythological renown. Attempts are being made to improve wireless telegraphy and telephony. What have we done? We appreciate the vastness of this great continent. We realize to the full what wireless telegraphy and telephony mean. We are constantly advising residents in the cities to settle in the country. Here is a means by which we can assist to make rural life more attractive. But we are not doing anything to avail ourselves of it. The progress being made in Australia in connexion with this branch of science is on all-fours with the position in regard to the Institute of Science and Industry.

Little or ‘nothing is being accomplished. Those who are in close touch with the extension of wireless telegraphy realize that wonderful strides are being made in other parts of the world. In Paris to-day photographs of definite thoughts and the human emotions are actually being produced. Dr. Baraduc, of the College of France, has obtained a number of these photographs. He has succeeded in photographing the dynamic action of thought. From this, it appears that the emotions send out definite vibrations not unlike radio impulses.

Senator Crawford:

– Such procedure would be embarrassing in some instances.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Yes. If a record could be taken of the impressions in the minds of some of those associated with this matter, quite a number would be embarrassed. Radio engineers have been experimenting with a reasonable measure of success with the radio compass, which will go a long way towards reducing, the yearly number of catastrophes due to fog. In experimenting on the ‘ thermyonic valve, General Squires was able to transmit the actual beating of the human heart to a physician many miles away. There are shore stations that will materially aid in responding to wireless- calls for medical advice. In one case, a shore doctor stationed several, hundred miles away heard the heart-beats, of a man lying, unconscious on a ship out at sea, every beat being clearly transmitted. We are doing little or nothing in the. Commonwealth. We have not. even a laboratory in Australia in which- this work can be carried out. Our position in connexion with wireless, is closely approaching a scandal. We are allowing year after year to pass in idleness while the rest of the world is marching on. A parliamentary committee was appointed in 1922, and we were under the impression that some progress would be made. To-day we are asked: to ratify an agreement to erect -a station under a system which, in 1917, was considered obsolete. Surely we are not going to allow this to be done. I intend to- move that a committee be appointed to inquire into. the. agreement, and submit, a. report to the Senate before the bill is passed. It. is said that under the beam system most of the work of transmission has to be done during the hours of darkness. There are only about two and a half hours of twilight in which transmission can be undertaken. We should be in a position to control the traffic, otherwise we shall be authorizing the erection of a station at an enormous cost, the service from which can be only supplementary to that provided by the cable companies. We need something more than that. I move -

That all the words after “That” be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “the bill be referred to a .committee of the Senate for inquiry and report.”

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

-.. - We have all listened with great interest to the speech . delivered by Senator Millen, and we feel indebted to him for the valuable information which he has given, and for his criticism of the measure. But whilst we may agree with a good deal of his scientific criticism, we should pay regard to the whole of the circumstances that influenced the Government in shaping its policy as; outlined in this bill. Perhaps it is because Australia, to some extent, lacks- expert advisers in wireless developments that greater progress with wireless has not been made in this country up to the present. In. the absence of this experience and expert advice, it must, I think, be admitted that the Government was wise in not persisting in the development of wireless as a purely governmental activity. A certain amount of criticism was levelled at the first agreement when it came before another place, and, as a result, it was referred to a committee, including two members of this chamber, Senator Millen and Senator DrakeBrockman, both of whom rendered extremely valuable service. Senator Millen because of his scientific knowledge, and Senator Drake-Brockman because of his knowledge of legal contracts, materially assisted in safeguarding the interests of the Commonwealth. The recommendations of the committee were embodied in the agreement.

– That is correct, but what I am complaining about is that the Government has done nothing to encourage wireless research.

Senator PEARCE:

– With Senator Millen I regret the lack of expert advice to assist the Government in that direction. In Australia we have no technical advisers on wireless comparable with men whose services are available to Governments in Great Britain and other parts of the world. We now come to the constitution of the directorate of the company. There again the Government was unfortunate. Difficulty arose over the selection of an independent chairman. This was overcome by ‘Mr. Hughes taking the position. The three directors representing the Government were selected from gentlemen in the front rank of the business world; but, unfortunately, they had no knowledge of wireless, so that, whilst they were animated with the desire to do the best in the interests of the Commonwealth, lacking expert knowledge of wireless developments, no doubt they had to accent the views put forward by the representatives of the company. The bill dons not end the original agreement which. :i*

I have said, contains conditions inserted on the recommendation of the committee of which Senator Millen was a member. It amends the agreement by voiding the unworkable conditions due, as I have shown, to the refusal of the British Government to allow a corresponding highpower station to be erected in Great Britain, and it provides for the operation of a beam station. The development of the beam system is an extremely important one. What the future holds in this respect has yet to be determined.

Senator PEARCE:

– When I suggested that the Senate would be justified in passing the bill at the present juncture, and that the position would be in no way improved by referring it to a select committee, an honorable senator interjected that he had doubt whether there would be a contract in addition to the proposed agreement contained in the bill. Nobody who reads the agreement will fail to see that there must obviously be a. contract. Clause 3 of the agreement as set out in the schedule reads -

Upon the Company entering into an agreement -

providing to the satisfaction of the Representatives of the Commonwealth on the Board of Directors of the Company for the erection in Australia of amain trunk station capable of providing (as soon as a suitable corresponding station has been erected in the United Kingdom and/or Canada) a commercial wireless service to communicate with such corresponding stations with a traffic capacity asregards each of such corresponding stations of at least twenty-one thousand six hundred (21,600) words per day each way for three hundred (300) days per year at an estimated capital cost not exceeding One hundred and twenty thousand pounds (£120,000) ;

containing guarantees of such a nature and to such an amount as are approved by the CommonwealthRepresentative’s on the Board of Directors for the erection of the said main trunk station and for its capability to provide the service stipulated in the last preceding paragraph;

– Up to 2,000 miles. Marconi proceeded to remove some false impressions, prevalent even amongst technical experts, with regard to the beam system, and it is obvious .that these have been introduced into the debates on this bill. These false impressions regarding the behaviour of short waves were:- -

That their range during day time is variable and short-,
That the night ranges are exceedingly variable and freaky, and altogether too unreliable to allow of the carrying out of commercial work;
That any considerable area of intervening land or mountains very seriously reduces the distance at which it is possible’ to communicate.

Marconi disposes of these objections in the following very emphatic and convincing terms: -

The- tests carried out between Poldhu and the Elettra proved by the definite results obtained, that the above-mentioned impressions or conclusions must be erroneous, at least in so far as they may concern waves of about 100 metres long, for we observed: -

That the day ranges proved to be reliable and not inconsiderable.

That the night ranges were much greater than any one, myself included, had anticipated, and no doubt very considerably exceeded the maximum distance to which I was able to proceed with the Elettra

That intervening land and large portions of continents do not present any serious obstacle to the propagation of these waves.’-

The transmitting power at Poldhu was gradually reduced from 12 kilowatts to 1 kilowatt, but, according to Marconi, the signals received at St. Vincent, 2,330 miles distant, were still stronger than would have been necessary for the carrying out of commercial work over that distance. Mr. Mathieu calculated that the signals would still have been readable, even if the power had been reduced to one-tenth of a kilowatt. Marconi adds that the night signals from Poldhu with only 1 kilowatt were much, stronger than those received from the Marconi Company’s own station at Carnarvon, or from other European or American high-power stations. Marconi summarized his conclusions of this series of tests by stating -

The results of these tests were sufficient to convince me that it would be possible to carry out reliable commercial services for a large portion of hours out of the 24 over distances of at least 2,300 nautical miles by utilizing only about 1 kilowatt of energy at the transmitting stations, and that the practical range of the system, when using 12 kilowatts, had not even been approached.

That is very definite.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– It is mere guess-work.

Senator DUNCAN:

– Marconi, encouraged by this success, proceeded to make tests over greater distances this year. Regular transmission was received in America, and in Canada reception was found to be possible for sixteen hours out of the 24. Marconi referred to the successful tests with Australia in the following terms : -

Bather to my surprise, I must admit, Mr. Ernest T. Fisk, the managing director of the Amalgamated Wireless (Australia) Limited, reported to me that ‘he could receive the Poldhu transmissions at his house in Sydney every day perfectly well from 5 to 9 p.m., Greenwich time, and also that he had received them between 6.30 and 8.30 a.m., informing me also that for most of the time the signals were clear, steady, and strong on an improvised receiver consisting of a two-stage high-frequency tuned plate and grid with one rectification-. He also added that he had read every word that was sent, and that the signals were better than those he had yet received from the high-power station at Carnarvon. These experiments with Australia were continued during the month of May, consistently good results being obtained at two receiving stations situated in the vicinity of Sydney. It seems obvious, if we consider the- position and altitude of the sun, that during the morning period the waves travelled from England to Australia starting in a westerly direction, across the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, along the longest route, which is, approximately, 12,219 nautical miles, whilst during the evening period they travelled in an easterly direction over Europe and Asia along the shortest route, which is about 9,381 nautical miles. These results were so encouraging that I was tempted to try a wireless telephony test to Australia.- With rather experimental arrangements at Poldhu, intelligible speech was transmitted for the first time in the history of England to Sydney, on Friday, the 30th day of May, of this year. For the telephone test to Australia, oil-cooled valves were employed for the main valve and for modulating valves. The wave length was 92 metres, and an independent drive was employed for controlling the main valves. The total power supplied to the valves was, approximately, 28 k.w. divided up as follows : 18 to the main valves, 8 to the modulating valves and 2 to the drive valves. No reflector was employed. It was gratifying to all concerned that the experiment succeeded the very first time it was tried, Mr. C. S. Franklin being in charge of the transmitting apparatus at Poldhu, and Mr. Ernest T. Fisk, of the receivers at Sydney. It is also interesting to observe that, these extreme distances were obtained without the use of any reflector at either end. The results obtained between England and Australia easily constitute a record for ratio of distance to wave length for Sydney, by the shortest route, is approximately 189,000 wave lengths from Poldhu

It will be noted that, although two features of the new system were employed in the Australian tests - the short wave and low power - Marconi emphasizes that another important factor - the reflectors - were not employed, thus making the success of the tests all the more remarkable. He expresses the opinion in his paper that adequately designed reflectors, even if of comparatively moderate size, would enormously increase the effective strength of the signals. This would augment the efficiency of communication, increase the number of hours during which it would be possible to work with very distant countries, and reduce interference. Marconi added that there was no theoretical reason why the speed attained with the short wave should not be a hundred times as great as is possible with the long wave employed by the highpower stations.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– That is obvious.

Senator DUNCAN:

– Of course it is, but T thought the honorable senator said that it would not be possible to send the. same number of words under this system as under the old method. This is a much more rapid system of transmission. In June this year, further tests were conducted between Poldhu and Buenos Aires, in the Argentine, a distance of 5,820 nautical miles. At the conclusion of the tests the international committee controlling wireless in the Argentine, stated that the signals from Poldhu, transmitted by the new system, were received at Buenos Aires with such regularity and extraordinary strength as to permit a service being conducted at any speed. The committee also expressed the opinion that the Argentine station should be immediately equipped with the new system, which the committee is confident will handle in six hours more than double the traffic that is now handled in 24 hours with the present super-power station. These facts show that the old high-power system is out of date, and the Commonwealth would not be justified in sanctioning the erection of a high-power station, when the results under the new system are entirely satisfactory. Excellent results were also obtained at Bio, in Brazil. In view of these tests, Senator Marconi concludes as follows: -

All these results, many of which have greatly exceeded my expectations, convince me that by means of this system, economical and efficient low-power stations can be established, which will maintain direct high-speed services -with the most distant parts of the globe during a considerable number of fixed hours per day. I am further of the opinion that by moans of those comparatively small stations, a far greater number of words per 24 hours could be transmitted between England, India, and her distant Dominions than would he possible by means of the previously planned powerful and expensive stations. Another particular advantage of this system should not be overlooked. As distant stations situated only within a certain angle or sector of the beam are enabled to receive, this condition brings about a comparative privacy or secrecy nf communication unobtainable with any other system of radio communication, and this may prove to bc of the greatest importance in war time, besides considerably increasing the number of stations it will be possible to work, by reducing the possibilities of mutual interference between them. The comparative economy in capital cost of these stations, the small amount of electrical power which need be employed, together with the capability of work ing at very high speeds, should make it possible to bring about a substantial reduction in telegraphic rates. The importance of this to the Empire must be obvious.

– I am prepared to give it a trial in Australia rather than that the Commonwealth should continue with an expensive scheme which, up to the present, has yielded no results at all. If we do not adopt this proposal, we shall have to wait at least six months until experiments are made, and then we shall have to put a measure through Parliament to provide for the erection of stations for the new system. Probably at least eighteen months will elapse before anything can be done. This scheme promises good results. It will cost only about onefourth the high-power station proposal, and it is expected to yield results immediately the stations are ready. In the circumstances, it would be inexcusable to further delay the measure.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– “ Should the Senate toss aside the Wireless Bill passedby the House of Representatives, it will be doing something to justify its existence.” Thus spoke the Melbourne Age a few days ago. I hope that the Senate, if it does not reject the bill, will at least adopt the amendment submitted by Senator Millen. There is, without any shadow of doubt, a haze ofsuspicion surrounding the wireless agreement. The original agreement was referred to a committee of which Senator Millen was a member, and that honorable senator declared -

Nobody could have participated in the inquiry “without concludingthat there was very much that was suspicions inthe transaction.

Senator Wilson, who is now a member of the Bruce-Page Ministry, said -

Yes, and you are not the only one who holds the opinion that the whole surroundings are smellful.

I do not know of anything that has taken place since then to cause those honorable gentlemen to alter their opinions. The agreement stipulated that the Amalgamated Wireless Company should erect high-power stations in Australia, Canada, Africa, and the United Kingdom.The company has not, so I understand, erected any stations inthe countries mentioned. It made a. promise that it would be able to erect a high-power station in Britain. In my opinion, the company knew at the time that it could not carry out what it had contracted to do. Did theGovernment inquire if any communication had passed between the company and the British Government concerning that proposal? The British Government is now erecting a high-power station because it believes, as I do, that wireless should be the sole monopoly of the nation. It is alsotrue that the British Government has given the Marconi Company permission to erect a beam station at its own cost, and that if it is a success, about which there is much doubt, the Government may take it over from the company, but the Government will not in any circumstances, allow the Marconi Company to control wireless in Britain. I do not profess to have much knowledge of wireless, but I know that for many years the Marconi octopus, with its tentacles outstretched to every country in the world, has been exercising an influence in this country. When the Fisher Government was in power, the Marconi people consistently agitated for the installation of their system in Australia, but the Fisher Ministry would have nothing todo with it. Instead, the Government took over the Balsillie wireless system, and erected a number of stations in different parts of the Commonwealth. Those stations havebeen operating successfully, but ever since then the Marconi Company, with which is now associated the Amalgamated Wireless, has been working through the columns of the newspapers, and by lobbying and button-holing members of Parliament, to induce the Government to. take over its system. Senator Duncan had a well-prepared brief for the Marconi Company.

Senator Pearce:

Senator CRAWFORD:

– I think that in this instance we are only interested in the fact that it would not permit it. Some time ago the whole question was referred to what is known as the Donald Committee, and that committee reported in favour of Government control of all high-power wireless stations. A beam station is in a sense a high-power station, because it will be capable of sending messages from one end of the world to the other. Honorable senators seem to be somewhat in doubt concerning the possibility of enforcing the guarantee which may be provided under the contract for the erection of the proposed station. This question was considered by the parliamentary committee of which Senator Millen was a member. That committee reported as follows : -

The question of indemnity in the event of failure of the stations to function as required by the agreement was discussed, and it was agreed that a suitable clause could be inserted in the agreement to protect the Government and obtain definite guarantees.

The original agreement considered by the committee, of which Senator Millen was a member, also contained this provision -

The agreement shall contain guarantees of such a nature and of such an amount as are approved by the Commonwealth representatives on the board of directorsfor the provision of a commercial wireless service connexion between Australia and stations in the United Kingdom and Canada.

– And the Government will issue instructions to its representatives on the Amalgamated Wireless directorate.

Senator CRAWFORD:

– I can assure honorable senators that the interests of the Government will be safeguarded in every possible way.

Question - That the words proposed to be left out be left out (Senator John D. Millen’s amendment) - put. The committee divided.

AYES: 7

NOES: 10

Majority . . . . 3

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Original question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Schedule -

Senator ELLIOTT:
Victoria

.- I move -

That the following new paragraph be added to clause 3 of the schedule - “ (c) any agreement made by the company relating to the erection of such main trunk stations shall be subject to the approval of the Governor -General in Council.”

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Thehonorable senator cannot amend a signed agreement. It must be accepted or rejected in globo.

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT

– I hope that Senator Elliott will not press his amendment to a division. An assurance has already been given that the representatives of the Commonwealth Government on the directorate of Amalgamated Wireless will act under instructions from the Government, and that any contract made between that company and any other company will be submitted to the Government for approval. That practically does all that Senator Elliott seeks to do. In the circumstances, I trust that he will withdraw his amendment.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– I hope that Senator Elliott will not withdraw his amendment. It is a very businesslike proposition. We have had a statement from the Minister in charge of the bill that all costs incidental to the erection of these stations will be borne, not by the Government, but by the company. If the stations prove a success, well and good, but if they are not a success, the taxpayers of Australia will not be called upon to foot the bill. If we carry this amendment, we shall be certain of our ground. Parliament will then have an opportunity later to express an opinion in regard to the agreement. Senator Elliott deserves to be complimented, and if the amendment is supported by two or three honorable senators in addition to those who supported the amendment moved by Senator Millen, there is no doubt that it will be carried.

Question - That the paragraph proposed to be inserted be so inserted (Senator Elliott’s amendment) - put. The committee divided.

AYES: 7

NOES: 9

Majority … … 2

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

page 4220

SEA CARRIAGE OF GOODS BILL

Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that it had agreed to the amendment made by the Senate.

page 4220

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Arbitration (Public Service) Act- Determination by the Arbitrator -

No. 36 of 1924- Australian Postal Electricians’ Union.

No 37 of 1924- Commonwealth Public Service Clerical Association.

No. 38 of 1924- Australian Postal Assistants’ Union.

No. 39 of 1924- Commonwealth Telephone Officers’ Association.

No. 40 of 1924- General Division Officers’ Union of the Trade and Customs Department.

No. 41 of 1924- Federated Public Service Assistants’ Association.

No. 42 of 1924- Professional Officers’ Association, Commonwealth Public Service.

No. 43 of 1924 - Australian Postal Linemen’s Union.

No. 44 of 1924- Australian Telegraphists’ Union.

No-. 45 of 1924 - Commonwealth Postmasters’ Association, and Australian Postal Assistants’ Union.

Nos. 46 and 47 of 1924- Australian Letter Carriers’ Association.

page 4220

ADJOURNMENT

Relief Ship “Huddersfield” - Boucaut Bay and Elcho Island Companies: Press Statements.

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

– In moving: -

That the Senate do now adjourn,

I remind honorable senators’ that earlier in the day I stated that instructions had been given to the Commonwealth Investigation Bureau to make inquiries regarding Percy Whyte Pearce, whose name, for obvious purposes, was included in a newspaper list of certain persons who hold shares in the Elcho Island Oil Company. I now have statutory declarations that have been made before Mr. Roland S. Browne, commissioner for declarations. The first reads as follows : -

I, Percy Whyte Pearce, of 64 Crisp-street, Hampton, in the State of Victoria, do solemnly and sincerely declare thatmy name is Percy Whyte Pearce, that I am a clerk employed by the Victorian Railways Commissioners, that I am not in any way related to Senator Geo. F. Pearce or any member of his family, and further, neither as my wife in any way related to Senator Geo. F. Pearce or any members of his family.

AndI make this solemn declaration by virtue of the Statutory Declarations Act1911, conscientiously believing the statements contained therein to be true in every particular.

W. Pearce, Declarant.

Declared at Melbourne the eleventh day of September, 1924.

Before me -Roland S. Browne, Commissioner for Declarations.

Thesecond declaration reads as follows : -

I, Percy Whyte Pearce, of 64 Crisp-street, Hampton, in the State of Victoria, do solemnly and sincerely declare that I do not know Senator Geo.F. Pearce, nor have I had any communication withhim; that I am the pro- prietor of50 shares in the Elcho Island N aphtha Petroleum Company Limited, such shares being purchased direct by me from the said company.

And I make this solemn declaration by virtue of the Statutory Declarations Act 1911, conscientiously believing the statements contained therein to be true in every particular.

W.Pearce, Declarant.

Declared at Melbourne the eleventh day of September, 1924.

Before me - Roland S. Browne, Commissioner for Declarations.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned at 10.26 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 11 September 1924, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1924/19240911_senate_9_109/>.

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Senate11 September 1924

QUESTION

RELIEF SHIP HUDDERSFIELD

Senator FINDLEY:VICTORIA

Senator PEARCE:Minister of Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator Findley:

Senator PEARCE:

Senator PEARCE:

COMPENSATION CLAIM: MUNITION WORKER DUNK

Senator GARDINER:New South Wales

Senator PEARCE:Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

Senator Gardiner:

QUESTION

LINESMEN’S QUARTERS, FITZROY, KIMBERLEY

Senator CRAWFORD:Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

QUESTION

GRANTS TO TASMANIA

Senator DUNCAN:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator PEARCE:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT LINE OF STEAMERS

Senator KINGSMILL:WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator PEARCE:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK BOARD

Senator FOLL:QUEENSLAND

Senator PEARCE:NAT

QUESTION

DUTY ON COPRA

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator PEARCE:NAT

QUESTION

CANBERRA BUILDING LEASES

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator PEARCE:NAT

QUESTION

STATEMENTS BY MR. MARKS, M.P

Senator McDOUGALL:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator PEARCE:NAT

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

WINE EXPORT BOUNTY BILL

CASE OF LIEUTENANT W. W. PAINE

Select Committee’s Report

Ordered -

TARIFF BOARD BILL

Senator KINGSMILL:Western Australia

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator Pearce:

Senator Kingsmill:

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator Pearce:

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall:

Senator GRANT:NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GARDINER:New South Wales

Senator Crawford:

Senator GARDINER:

Senator Foll:

Senator Lynch:

Senator CRAWFORD:NAT

Senator Reid:

Senator GARDINER:

Senator Reid:

Senator GARDINER:

Senator Reid:

Senator GARDINER:

Senator Kingsmill:

Senator GARDINER:

Senator WILSON:(Honorary Minister · South Australia · NAT

Senator Kingsmill:

Senator WILSON:

Senator Kingsmill:

Senator WILSON:

Senator Kingsmill:

Senator WILSON:

Senator Kingsmill:

Senator WILSON:

Senator Kingsmill:

Senate
11 September 1924

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

Senator PEARCE:
Minister of Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

Senator DUNCAN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator KINGSMILL:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator McDOUGALL:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator CRAWFORD:
NAT

Senator WILSON:
(Honorary Minister · South Australia · NAT

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · Western Australia · NAT

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931