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Senate
17 August 1922

8^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

PAPERS
QUESTION
- IMPORTS OF HOPS
QUESTION
- WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY
TIMBER
- Introduction of Insect Pests
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH WOOLLEN MILLS
QUESTION
- TAXATION DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- NAURU AND OCEAN ISLAND
QUESTION
- REPATRIATION
QUESTION
- IRON AND STEEL,
QUESTION
- BOY SCOUT MOVEMENT
NATIONALITY BILL
SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) 1922-23
- Second Reading

The President (Senator the Hon. T. Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 1396

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determination by Arbitrator, &c. - No. 14 of 1922 - Australian Telegraphists Union.

Federal Capital Advisory Committee - Construction of Canberra - Second General Report.

page 1396

QUESTION

IMPORTS OF HOPS

Senator MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whatis the quantity and value of hops imported into the Commonwealth for the year ended 30th June, 1922?

Senator EARLE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · TASMANIA · NAT

– The Minister’ for Trade and Customs has supplied the following answer : -

page 1396

QUESTION

WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY

Experimenters : Licensing Fees - Board of Amalgamated Wireless

Senator MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

asked the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Will the Government encourage experiment and research amongst wireless enthusiasts by. considerably reducing the present annual licensing fees?

Senator EARLE:
NAT

– This question should have been directed to the Minister representing the Prime Minister. I have an answer to it supplied by the Prime Minister as follows: -

Yes. This question has already received consideration, and directions were given to amend the regulations so as to reduce the fees and provide every facility for encouragement of experimenters; the amended regulation will be available in the course of a week or two.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

What technical advice is furnished to the Government representatives on the Board of the Amalgamated Wireless Company?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The officer who was previously in charge of the Commonwealth Radio Service, Mr. J. Malone, is now acting as Controller of Wireless. His services and advice are at all times available to the Government or its representatives on wireless matters.

page 1397

TIMBER

Introduction of Insect Pests

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

asked the

Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

What control is being exercised to prevent the introduction of timber insect pests into the Commonwealth?

Senator EARLE:
NAT

– The following answer has been supplied: -

Under the Quarantine Act all imported timbers are liable to inspection for the presence of noxious insects, which include destructive borers, and special measures are taken to ascertain the extent to which the importation of timber offers any risk of the introduction of new insect pests.

page 1397

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH WOOLLEN MILLS

Operations and Proposed Sale

Senator LYNCH:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

Will the Government place a statement before the Senate showing the gain or loss to the Public Treasury through the existence of the Geelong Woollen Mills’ since their inception ?
Did the Government keep in mind the necessity for supplying the needs of the several Departments under its control with material from those mills when it decided to dispose of them?
Will the Government place before the Senate the several offers for the purchase of those mills, and give time for consideration before any offer is finally accepted?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The answers are -

The profits shown in the balance-sheets of the mill since its inception in 1916 are: - 1917, £22,414 12s. 5d.; 1918, £15,654 9s.1d.; 1919, £22,6894s.8d.; 1920, £26,000 6s. 4d.-, 1921, £55,934 4s. 6d.
Yes.
No.

page 1397

QUESTION

TAXATION DEPARTMENT

Method of Estimating Taxable Income

Senator DUNCAN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Commissioners for Taxation have deliberately kept from the public the knowledge that certain departmental methods used in arriving at the taxable amount of some incomes have been recognised as incorrect by the Department, and have been altered?
If it is a fact that such knowledge has been suppressed, and the public consequently have been ignorant of the altered view of the Department as to what is right and what is wrong, have taxpayers been unaware that in certain cases refunds if applied for could be obtained ?
Will the Department take steps to make the facts fully known?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The answers are -

No. The departmental rulings have not yet been published, because it has not been practicable to do so. The work of preparing the rulings for publicationhas been going on. for many months past, but, owing to its magnitude, its completion will occupy several months longer. The matter is being proceeded with as rapidly as current administration will permit.
See reply to question 1.
Yes.

page 1397

QUESTION

NAURU AND OCEAN ISLAND

Staff Employed

Senator GARDINER:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

How many officers are employed on the staff at Nauru and Ocean Island?
What is the total amount of salary paid per annum to the whole of the staff employed at these islands?
How many labourers are employed at these islands? .
What is the total amount of wages paid per annum to the labourers working at these islands?
What is the cost per ton of freight for phosphates from Nauru to Sydney and Melbourne?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The information is being obtained.

page 1398

QUESTION

REPATRIATION

Allocation of Advance to State

Senator SENIOR:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

Has the ‘Minister arrived at any decision re the request of South Australian senators and representatives on the matter of increased allocation of money for the purpose of meeting commitments and continuation of repatriation work in South Australia. If so -

What amount has been allocated?

What rate of interest does it bear?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– Yes. It has been arranged to continue to South Australia for War Service Homes purposes during the current financial year the same monthly amount as that advanced last year, viz., £62,500 per month. The matter of extending the agreement over a longer period is subject to future consideration. The interest rate will be 5 per cent.

page 1398

QUESTION

IRON AND STEEL,

Removal of Duties - Closing of Works : Coal Prices

Senator DUNCAN:
for Senator Gardiner

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

If the manufacturers of iron in Australia persist in keeping their works closed, will the Government have the duties on iron and steel removed to enable the users of iron to obtain supplies ?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The Government will not allow the free importation of iron and steel from other countries. The policy of the Government is to protect Australian industries and Austraiian workers. If proof is furnished! that manufacturers are operating to the detriment of the Australian steel industry, steps will be taken to meet the situation.

Senator LYNCH:

asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate, upon notice -

Whether the Government have noticed an announcement in the press to the effect that the Government of Western Australia has placed an order outside of Australia for the supply of steel rails?
Whether it has seen a ‘public statement to the effect that the Broken Hill Proprietary could not re-start its operations owing to the excessive price of coal?
Whether, if so, the Government will request the Coal Tribunal or other body to explain to the public the futility of fixing such a price for coal as to directly bring those events about?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The answers are-

No.
Yes.
The course suggested cannot be -adopted.

page 1398

QUESTION

BOY SCOUT MOVEMENT

Legislation to Protect

Senator REID:
QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Recognising the great help rendered by the Boy Scout movement to the Empire during the war, and the good it is doing to the youth of Australia, will the -Government consider the advisability of introducing legislation to legalize the name, uniforms, badges, &c, of the Boy Scouts, and so protect them against any fraudulent attempts which may be made by individuals to collect money from the public for the Boy Scout movement?

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The Minister for Defence supplies the following answer : -

The matter alluded to by the honorable senator is now receiving attention and it is hoped to be able to introduce the necessary legislation shortly.

page 1398

NATIONALITY BILL

Bill (on motion by Senator Pearce) read a third time.

page 1398

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) 1922-23

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Suspension of Standing Orders.

Motion (by Senator E. D. Millen) proposed -

That so much of the Standing and Sessional Orders be suspended as would prevent the Bill being passed through all its stages without delay.

Senator Gardiner:

– It would have saved a lot of unnecessary expenditure.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– Yes, and more than that. We do not have to consider only what we want, but what the other fellow is likely to do. In the circumstances, I did all that was humanly possible, and the promise which I gave to this Chamber to take steps to see that ample time was allowed for the consideration of Supply Bills was redeemed, because the Bill was ready last Thursday. Some honorable senators stress the point that this is a financial measure. It is, but it is not a Bill which covers the finances of the country for the whole year, . but merely a measure to authorize payment for the ordinary monthly services, and covers those amounts which are paid to the servants in the Government employ. The country’s finances generally are discussed on the Budget, and we are now seeking approval for the payment of ordinary services which have been approved on a previous Budget. Senator Gardiner has said that the discussion in another place did not last more than ten minutes; but that was because the time was “taken up in debating a censure motion. The Bill was regarded in another place as a formal appropriation for the payment of ordinary services. If we were dealing with the finances for the year, I can quite understand honorable senators seeking further time for discussion. Under the procedure adopted many years ago, immediately the Budget is tabled in another place, and before the Appropriation Bill reaches this Chamber, Budget-papers are presented here, and a motion is submitted, “ That the papers be printed,” to enable honorable senators to discuss at whatever length they desire the whole financial situation. Judging by past experience there seems to be a good deal of insincerity in the claims which have been lodged for proper time in which to discuss the year’s finances, because, if honorable senators will peruse the records of previous sessions, they will find that little interest has been taken in Commonwealth finances, although on the motion I have mentioned they can be discussed from A to Z. For weeks or months at a time those keen and earnest financiers who are so anxious to dissect the national balancesheet have refrained from discussing the motion, the consideration of which has frequently been postponed. As this is merely a Supply Bill to authorize the payment of monthly accounts, I ask honorable senators to accept my statement that the Government will again make every effort to see that reasonable time is allowed for discussion. I can do no more, neither can the Government; and, in this circumstance, I ask the Senate to pass the motion which I have moved.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Government Policy: Financial Position : The Tariff - Unemployment and its Causes - Carbide: Embargo on Imports : Slade and Company and Tasmanian Industry - Defence Force : Retrenchment : Compensation on Retirement - Capital and Labour : Arbitration Courts - Sugar Agreement and Prices - Nauru Island: Superphosphates - War Service Homes: Canungra Timber Mills : Purchases op Land : Evictions - Unification of Railway Gauges - Taxation : State Percent ages - Public Servicebill - Country Telephone and Mail Services.

Motion (by Senator E. D. Millen) proposed -

That this Bill be now read a first time.

Senator GARDINER:

Senator Payne:

– What is the total amount?

Senator GARDINER:

– Roughly, about £60,000,000. I do not think it can be said that this levy upon the people of Australia has contributed very materially towards the solution of our unemployment problem. Put £60,000,000 spread over two years in the hands of any ordinary intelligent man confronted with unemployment difficulties and I will guarantee that at the end of two years there would be no unemployment in Australia. But what have the Government done with this money? They have left the workers to the tender mercy of the big companies, whose balance-sheets, read in this chamber on some occasions, have demonstrated, how .they are prospering. I call to mind, for instance, the balancesheet of the iron and steel industry, submitted by,Senator Lynch when the Tariff was under discussion, which showed that within a few years the companies concerned had wiped out their total capital expenditure. Nevertheless, they were shutting down their works in order to force men to accept a lower rate of wage.

To show honorable senators how these protective duties are operating, I should like to give a few facts concerning the carbide industry as set out in the following letter from C. H. Slade and Company, Sydney, 11th August, 1922 :-

Carbide

Dear Sir,

On 25th November, 1920, Parliament, after strong opposition, agreed to an import embargo for one year only. Government proclaimed it an absolute embargo. Why? How is such a departure from Parliament’* express wish regarded by sincere members? Does the debt to the Tasmanian Government justify all Australia being penalized? The actual cost is £S 5s. 6d. per ton.

Bingham, in his book on carbide manufacture, sets out the cost as under for a factory with furnaces taking 2,000 b.p. or over -

Government decides that £30, f.o.b. Hobart, is a fair price, without any stipulation respecting gas yield. We have notified the Tariff Board that we are prepared to sell Canadian carbide o£ highest standard quality a-fc £30 per ton. delivered Australian main .ports. The Customs permits just issued state that imported carbide is not to be sold lower than the price of the Tasmanian product. We -would mention that included in the cost of imported carbide is freight, insurance, exchange,, duty, and landing charges, totalling £21 9s. per toil. This makes the net cost, f.o.b. Montreal. £8 Ils. per ton.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– If the honorable senator intends putting both sides, will he say which he favours?

Senator PAYNE:

– I wish to refer to the statement made by Senator Gardiner, who quoted a letter from Slade and Company, in which it is clearly and definitely set out that the actual cost of producing carbide is £811s. per ton. They quote, as their authority; Bingham’s book on carbide manufacturing. I asked Senator Gardiner for the date of publication of the text book by Bingham, but he could not give me the date. Mr. Gillies writes me as follows in connexion with this matter. I shall read the whole of his letter, because Slade’s letter has been read, and will appear in Hansard, and in fairness to Mr. Gillies and the

Tasmanian Carbide Company the whole of his letter in refutation of the statement which has been submitted to the Senate should be published. Mr. Gillies writes -

Dear Sir,

I have been handed a copy of a circular letter under the heading “ Carbide,” which, I am given to understand, has been forwarded to every member of the Federal Parliament by the firm of C. H. Slade & Company, Sydney. This letter is so very misleading and prejudicial to my company,, which has spent over £200,000 in establishing carbide works in Tasmania, that I take the liberty of issuing a reply in a similar manner.

Objects of Slade & Co.

It would appear quite obvious that Slade & Company, who are the representatives of a foreign carbide manufacturing company, are endeavouring to influence honorable members to bring about the removal of the embargo on imports, so that they and others may again dump their surplus carbide on the Australian market, and close down the Tasmanian works before it has had time to duplicate its plant and complete the installation of its steam tramway and other labour-saving devices, which are being installed to cheapen the cost of production.

Slade& Company’s Misstatements.

I have no wish to deal with the reasons why the embargo was placed on the importation of carbide in the first instance further than to say that this action on the part of the Federal Government has since been amply justified, and has saved an industry which is now giving direct continuous employment to over 150 hands, including a staff of highly-qualified engineers and chemists, with a pay-roll of over £40,000 per annum, and when the . works are duplicated, which- it is expected they will be before the end of the summer, over 250 men will bo continuously employed, with a corresponding increase in the amount of wages paid. It also . pays over £10,000 per annum to the Tasmanian Hydro-Electric Department for power,, and expends a large sum (considerably over £40,000 per annum) for raw material, coal, coke, steel sheets, and we hope it will also be paying large sums in Federal and State income taxes. Its works have been running continuously for some time past turning out carbide at the rate of over 5,000 tons per annum, and -will be increased to 10,000 tons per annum before the end of next summer, which is much more than present Australian requirements; and all this has been brought about by the statesmanlike action of the Federal Ministers and the good-will of honorable members of all parties.All my company now asks -is that the prohibition be continued until the additional plant mentioned has been installed. When this is done, we feel satisfied wo will be able, with the assistance of the Tariff, to meet any fair competition which may come along, even that of the Canadian company which Messrs. Slade & Company represent.

Coat of Production.

I do not propose to disclose, for business reasons, what our cost of manufacture is at the present time, only mentioning that it has been considerably reduced during the last twelve months, chiefly owing to the fact that the works have been kept running continuously, also that, at our f.o.b. price of £30 per ton, we are now earning fair profits. Messrs. Slade & Company’s statement as to the present cost of manufacturing carbide is simply absurd. They state the actual cost of manufacturing carbide is £8 5s. 6d. per ton, and that this is taken from Bingham’s book on carbide manufacture; but they do not explain that this is a technical book, and the costs were based on pre-war costs of material and labour, and not on present costs, which, every one knows, are more than double those mentioned. Later on, in another paragraph, and in order, apparently, to prove their statement that the manufacturing cost in Canada is about the Baine as that mentioned by Bingham, namely, about £8 5s. 6d. per ton, they make the further statement that, included in the cost of Canadian carbide (which they are prepared to sell at £30 per ton, delivered Australian ports) are freight, insurance, exchange, duty, and landing charges, totalling £21 9s., which, added to the net cost, Montreal, £8 lis., makes up the landed price of £30, Australian ports. If the figures as to the landing costs of carbide from Canada are true, only one conclusion can be come to, and that is that the Canadian Carbide Company and Messrs. Slade & Company, their agents, are prepared to sell their surplus carbide at dumping prices, which leaves them no profit whatever. If, however, the statement as to costs of manufacture are untrue, and I am sure they are, from reliable information obtained recently as to the wholesale selling price of carbide on trucks, Canadian works, namely, £18 10s. per short ton, and the landing charges are also what has been quoted us as the cost from Montreal, namely, £13 10s., which includes freight, insurance, duty, wharfage, stacking charges, and exchange, and if this latter amount is added to the above price of £18 1.0s. on trucks (but not including railage to Mon treal), the landed cost, Australian ports, should be £32, which is exactly the price quoted to ns by the Victorian agents of the Canadian company. Whatever may be the cost of manufacturing carbide before the war, it is certain that the present cost is more than double what is stated, and this is true of nearly every manufactured product, whether in Europe, Canada, or Australia. I think, from the explanation given you in this letter, that honorable members will be able to read between the lines and appreciate at their true value the statements and insinuations contained in the letter referred to, also the object Messrs. Slade & Co. had in making them.

Yours faithfully,

Jas. H. Gillies,

Managing Director.

That statement by Mr. Gillies carries on the face of it every indication of truth.

– The honorable senator told half the truth, and left it to some one else’ to tell the other half.

– That would mean that certain industries would soon disappear. I also have a copy of the rural workers’ log asking that £1 per week and keep be paid to the feeder of a chaffcutter. It must be realized that when employers are constantly receiving such logs, industry is unsettled. It is not to be wondered at that land is going out of cultivation. “We cannot expect landowners with small capital to go in for further development under such conditions. A blacksmith who received the log to which I previously referred, thought it was an award of the Court that he had to comply with. He knew that there had been an award made a few weeks previously, and a peculiar feature is that he only had his own two boys in his employ.

Senator LYNCH:
Western Australia

– If any proof were required as to the warrant for a protest on the part of the Senate in regard to Supply Bills, it was furnished “by Senator Gardiner’s speech. He spoke at length, but said a great deal that was worth listening to. It may not be amiss for me to essay the task of filling up the one or two blanks in that speech in order to complete the diagnosis of the present industrial position. The honorable senator told us that the present position was largely due to the failure of the Tariff to bring about the promised benefit to industry of wiping out unemployment. He has given us a long statement as to the revenue from the Tariff, and he has also told us of the vast numbers of unemployed throughout Australia. I am glad to be able to say that some honorable senators on this side took a hand in pointing out the probable effect of the Tariff at the time it was agreed to. When the honorable senator started to dig down around the roots of the many causes of the present industrial trouble, I am afraid that he either neglected to make sure that he had all the roots in view, or that he did not take their relative effect into account. We should realize what is happening in. the industrial field apart from the effect of the Tariff itself.

The. Broken Hill Proprietary Company’s works have all that they need in the way of a Tariff. It has to be remembered to the credit of that company that, when its sponser and mouthpiece (Mr. Delprat) was called upon to express an opinion as to the use or otherwise of the Tariff, he valiantly said chat he would try to establish those works without a Tariff. Now a Tariff has been tried, and last year we gave the company a couple more rails to add to the fence, but still the works are shut down. My opinion is that the idle machinery at Newcastle is largely due to what is hap.pening in the coal-mining industry alongside. I have heard well authenticated stories of how men employed in that industry use the special power which that industry gives them to extract such a wage from, and impose such a penalty on, the industry that it is clearly reflected in the shutting down of the Newcastle Steel Works. I have never supported the cutting down of wages, but I am in favour of such a wage as the general condition of industry in Australia warrants, and not a. penny more. When we start to give a wage that an industry cannot afford, we are merely taking money from some other industry and giving it to the favoured few who are in the position of being able to extract more than they are entitled to. That is not progress at all. It is progress in a circle, not in a straight line. We are told that coal is too dear. To see the result of the Tariff we only need to remember that Welsh coal has been brought to Adelaide, and it has also been shipped 12,000 miles to New Zealand, in preference to the Newcastle product. The men working in the coal fields of New South Wales are getting relatively more than the industrial conditions of Australia warrant, and they are getting it in a secondary but very effective sense, at the expense of their brother workers in the industrial field elsewhere.

Take the base metal industry of North Queensland. I believe that, in a measure, the position is the same in Tasmania and Wallaroo, South Australia. Everywhere, owing to the high price of coke, and the high cost of the . manufactures required in the base metal industry, that industry has been brought to a standstill. I have been told that Newcastle is the happy hunting ground of all the bookmakers in Australia. Surely the workmen there are no better than other men who are earning their daily bread by the application of their labour. Any one who looks abroad will see that their fellow workers in other parts of the Commonwealth, whom they call comrades, are infinitely worse off than they are. I am t&ell aware of the progress made by some companies, but I would like to know what is the average return from capital expended upon the coal-mining industry in New South Wales.

In the maritime carrying trade the men are obtaining higher wages than the industries of this country can afford.

Senator Gardiner:

– Coal-mining is a very difficult and dangerous occupation.

Senator LYNCH:

– I admit that; but I do not know that it is more dangerous than other classes of mining.

Senator de Largie:

– It is more dangerous.

Senator LYNCH:

– I yield to that opinion, but I remember that, for a number of years; according to figures published by the British Board of Trade, the occupation that stood first on the list in the matter of fatalities was that of the seamen, and next came the metalliferous workers in the Old Country. Coal mining is not an unhealthy occupation. A report issued by the Kruger Government in South Africa showed that the average life of a metalliferous miner working machines was three years. Any one who visits the miners’ resorts in my State oan see any number of men spending their last days in those institutions, having been literally driven to their death by reason of their occupation, which, in my judgment, is much more dangerous than that of a coal-miner. In some instances metalliferous miners go to the coal mines to recuperate. This talk about unemployment induces me to ask wherein lies the spirit of camaraderie with these men who are enjoying high wages at the expense of their less fortunate comrades in other industries. Thousands of men in other industries find themselves thrown out of work, or placed on a very limited scale of work, by the policy laid down by the coal-miners of New South Wales.

Then there is the maritime carrying trade. Men in that occupation are likewise in a most favoured position, and they, I observe, second this go-slow policy. The qualifications for a ship’s steward are not very high. A lad - he may be only eighteen years of age - is supposed to be honest, and to have a presentable appearance. If he fulfils these requirements, and gets employment, his pay is £4 per week, plus tips. No other industry in this country can pay its labourers that wage. If the industry, or rather all industries, can stand £8 per week, then let it be paid. (But the other industries, and particularly the country ones, could not live twenty-four hours and pay such high wages! All branches of the maritime industry are paid on the same lavish scale. Over and over again I have told engineers on boats that if they were flung ashore, and had to run an engineering shop, they would not make anything like the wage they are getting at sea. Of course, the effect of this policy is reflected in the high fares and freights all along our coastline. The fact that the transcontinental railway, with all its disabilities of long distance and natural drawbacks, can compete in a fair measure with sea-borne traffic goes to prove that there is something radically wrong with our maritime carrying trade. Compared with the time when I was engaged in the industry, the men are not called upon to do anything like the work, and in return they receive an infinitely higher wage than was ever dreamed of then. And what is the position of the wool, wheat, butter, and fruit industries? All of these have to place their products on the markets of the world, and a man, to make good, has to work hard and long. If the wages paid in the coal -mining and maritime carrying trades had to be paid in all the other industries they would, of course, have to shut down, because no industry can pay that rate of wage and live.

Senator Bolton:

– The miners are the aristocrats of labour.

Senator LYNCH:

– That is the position, and the wonder ia that men in other industries suffer so long. The wonder is that they do not take some action to counter these men who are enjoying such high wages, at short hours, at the expense of the secondary industries of the Commonwealth. We want, competition. I was glad to notice that Senator Gardiner mentioned this towards the close of his speech. We want opportunities for capital, unlimited capital, to embark on various enterprises in the Commonwealth with an assurance that it will meet with some reward. It is about time we stamped with an iron foot upon this insane notion that the capitalist is an enemy of society, and particularly the enemy of the workers. If collectivism were possible, that is . to say, if the human element could stand up to its work and stand the test, I would be supporting it to-day. But, of course, we all know that it has failed miserably, and we turn, perhaps in sorrow, to the realization that, after all, a well watched competitive system is the only system humanly possible, with a healthy public opinion playing upon the relationships between an employer and an employee. Far too much of this evil spirit has been introduced into the relationships of capital and labour. According to the vicious doctrine that now has currency, even a humble bootmaker who rises from the ranks and becomes an employer is at once an enemy of society, and ought to be destroyed. It is most unfortunate that capitalists and employers have come to be regarded in certain quarters as the natural enemy of the working classes. The effect of this pernicious doctrine is reflected in the figures setting out the production of this country, which is very much below what it was eight or ten years ago. In Knibbs’ Tear Book there is a column that should stand out as a warning beacon to everybody. It shows that in recent years labour has not given the outturn that.it should. It necessarily fol lows that if the labour outturn is lower, commodities must be higher in price. This statement is capable of very simple demonstration. Let us assume, for example, that a bootmaker, working under ordinary conditions, finds he can secure the wherewithal to live comfortably if he makes two pairs of boots per day. If, unhappily, he listens to this insane goslow doctrine, the proof of which is found in Knibbs’ book, and reduces his output to one pair of boots per day, must not he get the same price for one pair as formerly he obtained for two, that is, if he is going to maintain his standard of living? This false doctrine is responsible for a very serious economic waste.

Let us consider for a moment the position of a successful business man, who, by reason of his ability to take the chances that came his way, and without robbing anybody, attains to a competence at, say, the age of fifty-five years. He sees this unsettled condition of things; he is hearing a great deal about class war and all this class-conscience nonsense that has been talked about lately, and he decides that, while he might still have ten or fifteen years of useful service before him, he will cease to produce wealth, and so he goes playing golf, or lapses into idleness for the rest of his life. I can give no more striking illustration than by quoting the case of a successful business man, a draper in North Queensland, a gentleman whom I knew very well in my early days in that State. He built up a big drapery business, probably one of the largest outside of Brisbane, and on the occasion of my visit not so very long ago, he took me to his enginehouse in which was housed a 100 horsepower Hornsby engine lying idle, covered up and rusting. When I asked him the reason he told me that his intention had been to import his material, and to establish a whitework factory in his town, thereby giving employment to a very large number, of people. But owing to the uncertain outlook he felt that there was no encouragement for him to embark upon such an enterprise. To use his own words, he said, “ I am no longer going to work for the other fellow.” Thus this worthy enterprise, which would have played its part in decentralization, giving necessary employment and adding to the wealth of the district, was nipped in the bud. No doubt, hundreds of similar cases could be quoted ‘all over Australia. All this seasoned experience of men who have by no means run their allotted span is being lost. It is so much national waste. There is a big responsibility upon those who are in a position to alter this condition of affairs. Upon their shoulders rests this obligation, and upon nobody else’s. Senator Gardiner and his party have their share of it. If only we can reconcile differences between employer and employees, we shall accomplish something. We have our Arbitration Courts, institutions that were not dreamed of in the days gone by, but which were the lifelong yearning of men who stood as the sponsors and fathers of the Labour movement. Unfortunately, the new generation of Labour leaders is turning away from the awards of the Arbitration Court, and even lately, as in the case of the Australian Workers Union, labour is being responsibly advised not to obey the awards of the Court. Whither are we drifting? This country should be one of the most attractive in the world for those who have capital to invest and those who are willing to work, but by reason of these false . doctrines, we find that capital is going elsewhere. Is it not as natural to expect competition in the field of capitalistic enterprises, and is it not as necessary to give capital an assurance of an adequate return, as that the workers Should have some guarantee of a reasonable wage?

We hear a good deal about the surplus earning of capital, and how it should be appropriated. Those who are students of political economy know that all proposals for the erection of the Socialistic State are foredoomed to failure. That system has been tried, and it has failed. We all remember the history of the socialistic adventure in South America - a scheme that took the cream of socialistic thought from this country. It was all collected together in one camp, and still the old Adam in man asserted itself to such an extent that, on one occasion, they had to call a special meeting to decide who would go out to mend the broken rails of the fences. I have read the history of many su’ch communistic enterprises.. Boston, in America, started a venture on similar lines to those followed in South America, and it was aided by many of the intellectuals of that country. In all these undertakings, when the time comes that the spirit of old Adam asserts itself, the individuals take heed for themselves and let the public weal for the time being “ go hang.” When this spirit was introduced it radiated like the ripples on a pool until it permeated the whole body of this socialistic enterprise, with the result that in the end the venture became bantrupt. The verdict recorded was that there were too many advisers and not enough men to hoe potatoes. It had all the help that human ingenuity, and an unselfish spirit could vouchsafe, but because it was one of those things which, in our present state of education, is impossible, it could not, and did not, succeed. Now it is being tried in Russia with the most ignorant people in the world, and with appalling results.

The vital point for us is that we cannot afford to experiment in that way. If we were like the United States of America, with 100,000,000 people, and if we slammed the door on able-bodied men from outside as they are doing, we could try such experiments, but we cannot do so in this vacant, resourceful, and rich land of Australia. There is a great opportunity for those who would pounce down upon us and say, “What are you doing with this country? You have no God-given right to hold it. You thrust the aboriginals on one side with a rude and sometimes a cruel hand. They were the owners; you are the interlopers.- You came here and said you would turn this country to the best account.” We started out to show them that we would turn the country to the best account, and, within limits,, we are doing it. Unless human nature is absolutely reversed, and all the canons that govern men’s actions are dead and non-existent, covetous eyes must be directed on this country, and rightly so - -just as rightly so as that our eyes and the eyes of our forefathers should be turned towards this country when the aboriginals were, the undisputed holders of it. I had better tell a story related to me by a man who had returned from a visit to Japan. I said to him, “What did you observe there?” He replied, “When I was going through the inland parts of the country I found the people most respectful in their bearing and conduct to me. It is a fearfully congested land. I have seen there women, with their babies strapped on their backs, digging on rice plots which were not larger than a city flat. “ We do not need to be told such facts by a visitor from Japan. While there is a population of 70,000,000 people on an area less than that of New South Wales, they must have, and should have, their eyes cast upon this country. They are envious of us with pur empty spaces. It is “up to” us, if we wish this country to be safe, to call a halt in the dispute between the two sections in the industrial field, and to amend our behaviour. The time has come when we should benefit by experience, for the man. who will not benefit by experience is not, and has no claim to be, the light and guide of his fellows. I venture to say that the men who are supporting this Government have jettisoned many of the notions they held years ago. They have had to say, “Although I believed in this or that in my period of political adolescence, I can see now that it will not do; it has been tried and found wanting.” We must alter our minds as a result of a wider view and a more searching inquiry and experience. I rose merely to point out, by way of reply to Senator Gardiner, that in this country we shall need to take stock of the position while yet we have time if we want to make the best use of our heritage. We shall have to drop the “ isms “ and “ asms “ of every party, and come together and make this country progress. Let us give every encouragement to the man who puts his capital into this country. He is prevented from becoming a blood-sucker of labour. He could be at one time; but is no longer so. He cannot do it in this country, and although it pays some people to go on the platform and tell the groundlings so, they cannot tell the intelligent worker that any longer. He knows that this thing has been told to him for a long time for the purpose of catching votes, and that it will do duty with him no longer.

I wish to refer briefly to the sugar question. We cannot dip into what is happening next door, and, therefore, from our peculiar vantage point in this Senate we are, perhaps, the better qualified observers of the whole rumpus. We see the parties trying to bring the Government, of which we are supporters, into public contempt and ridicule, and not having the power to make and unmake

Ministries, and not being directly concerned in the duel, we are the more faithful observers of what is going on. Sugar is a necessary of life, and it could never have been produced in this country unless its production had been encouraged. The form of encouragement was settled upon, and the war and other things happened. As a result of the Sugar. Agreement we were in a position in this country to get sugar at a price which, if the producers of it had been free to market it, we would not have enjoyed. As the producers were compelled to sell it locally, the consumers benefited very materially. I have been told that we are getting the cheapest sugar in the world. That is because we have in this country, owing to the designs of a benign Providence, the conditions which make for the production of sugar. We have a combination of soil and climate that ought to give us as cheap sugar as is obtainable with white labour in any country in the world. We have cheap bread, but it, of course, is wrung from far more unwilling soils, and under far less propitious conditions, than sugar. In connexion with the claim that we have cheap sugar, it has to be remembered that we have the natural conditions which should give us cheap sugar. It might as well be claimed that the South Sea Islanders have cheap coconuts, or the Greenlanders cheap polar bears. Naturally the conditions there make those things cheap, and it is so with sugar in this country. The argument that we get cheap sugar is vitiated by the collateral fact that conditions are here which do not obtain, anywhere else. When the prices mounted high during the war, we had an outcry from the consumers and the fruit interests that they were being unduly penalized. They ought to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth, the good with the bad. If they are being penalized now, they ought to .remember the time when they were being benefited. The people of this country have short memories, or are short-sighted or short-witted in the measure of credit that they give to the Government. Although I am not a thick-and-thin, obsequious supporter of the Government, and hope I never shall be, when I read the speech of Mr. Massy Greene I felt that from beginning to end there was displayed an outstanding degree of capacity that has done this Government every credit. Speaking as one engaged in a sister industry, I hope the time will never come when we shall be parsimonious in dealing with the sugar industry in Queensland. When we ask men to go into a region which, by all standards and tests, is far less pleasant than the places where all the grumbling comes from, we cannot expect them to go unless they are given some inducement in the form of an extra reward for their toil. When the time comes for the Sugar Agreement to be placed before this Chamber I shall, of course, while adhering to the principle I have enunciated, see that the sugar producers and manufacturers do not get too much. I shall not place them in the position of those who, when the plunder is within their reach, help themselves to an unlimited extent.

The last item to which I wish to refer has reference to the report of the manager of the Commission at Nauru. ‘ He states that an agreement has been made with manufacturers of superphosphates in this country to the effect that all the raw material delivered after 1st July of this year will be supplied at prices in the neighbourhood of £1 per ton less than the prices previously charged, and that it is part of the agreement that the manufacturers of superphosphates are to pass that charge on to the consumers. That is highly important to the fruit-growers, wheat-growers, and every ether allied industry in the interior of this country. Unless they fertilize the land they cannot hope for an adequate reward. I have to recall, a fact which is to the discredit of a, company to which I have publicly referred before, namely Messrs. Cuming, Smith, and Company Proprietary. A representative of that firm, which manufactures superphosphates, told me outside the door of this Senate that if a Tariff of 25 per cent, was put upon his product he would give me his word of honour that its price would not be raised. I had not been in Western Australia a week when the price jumped from £6 2s. 6d. to £6 12s. 6d. per ton. It has now been fixed at £6 2s. 6d. per ton for the current year; but under the agreement made with the Commissioners, the manufacturers stipulated that the reduction in price, which is in the neighbourhood of 20s. per ton, would be passed on. That has not been done. The price should now be in the region of £5 or £5 10s. a ton, as the manufacturers are under an obligation to supply at that price.

Senator Senior:

– A ton of rock does not produce a similar quantity of superphosphate.

Senator LYNCH:

– There is only about 18 per cent, of active plant food in every ton, and the balance is comprised of what the American journals term “padding,” which does not add to the fertility of the soil to any appreciable extent. I trust the Government will see that the wheat and fruit growers in this country who require superphosphate for their land shall get the benefit which is clearly set out. in the agreement, and that the reduced price will be passed on to the consumers.

Senator MacDONALD:
Queensland

– This is an occasion on which honorable senators have an opportunity of voicing “grievances, and I, therefore, desire to make a few observations on certain aspects of the Government’s administration. I followed Senator Gardiner’s remarks concerning unemployment with a great deal of interest, and although I do not intend to adopt the same line of argument, I would like to deal with some phases of the unemployment question. I do not share the opinions expressed by one honorable senator, who said that the Commonwealth was in no way responsible for the unemployment which, unfortunately, prevails in the Commonwealth at present. We are living in extraordinary times, and it is largely due to the peculiar circumstances which exist that we have a larger number of unemployed in Australia now than perhaps in any previous year.

Senator de Largie:

– The number here is smaller than in any other part of the world.

Senator MacDONALD:

– Yes, in comparison with the United! States of America and Great Britain, where capitalism is in full charge, and where, politically at least, labour has had no measure of control.

Senator de Largie:

– There were 6,000,000 unemployed in America last year, and now there are far more.

Senator MacDONALD:

– -Although the honorable senator may feel some satisfaction in repeating that statement, it is one that is not given much prominence in the anti-Labour press in Queensland, though here the Federal Government has to view it from a different angle. Whatever the position may be in other parts of the world, it cannot be denied that the

Federal Government is largely responsible for unemployment in the Commonwealth.

Senator MacDONALD:

Senator MacDONALD:

– I have all the particulars in my possession, and, if necessary, I could speak at great length on this subject. I have the decision of the Court here, and it is against the Depart-, ment. I have come in contact with quite a number of returned soldiers who have been penalized in this way by the departmental under-estimate of costs. It would appear that in Mr. Hanman’s case there was a certain amount of victimization because of his political attitude, and particularly his views on the question of unemployment among returned soldiers, at which the Department took umbrage, and I understand that was one reason why action was taken in his case. The newspapers are full of complaints about the bungling and expensive transactions in connexion with War Service Homes administration, and only the other day the Public Accounts Committee adversely commented on a transaction in which Messrs. E. A. and D. Green, of Melbourne, were concerned.

I should like now to say a few words upon unemployment generally, and particularly to direct attention to the Canungra saw-mills muddle, which resulted in a couple of hundred men being thrown out of work in Queensland. That concern was proceeding very satisfactorily as a private enterprise, from the point of view of employment, and undoubtedly it affected the industrial prospects of a large number of other people.

Senator Foll:

– Then you do not believe in State enterprise?

Senator MacDONALD:

– If by that the honorable senator means our experience in connexion with the Canungra saw-mills, then I am not in favour of public enterprise.

Senator Foll:

– But why not tell us about some of the State stations.

Senator MacDONALD:

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:

– The honorable senator will not be in order in referring to a matter that is already on the notice-paper. Anything relevant or irrelevant may be alluded to on this Bill, but the honorable senator may not anticipate a subject that is alreadydown for discussion.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– In that case I shall have to wait until the third reading of the Bill. I would like to know what the Government is doing in regard to the unification of the railway gauges of Australia. With many other citizens of Australia,, I think that this is an important matter. During the debate on the Address-in-Reply I asked the Minister to tell us what could be done to connect a portion of the railway system, of New South Wales with, the East- West railway. I pointed out that the experts who were appointed by the Federal and State Governments had said that the railway gauges of Australia ought to be unified viâ Adelaide, Melbourne, and Sydney to Brisbane. I agree with the report, but I asked then, and I ask now, what will the Commonwealth Government do if the Governments of South Australia and Victoria refuse to cooperate? Will the Federal Government be prepared to associate itself with the Governments of New South Wales, Queensland, and Western Australia in order to unify the gauge from Fremantle, via Condobolin or Hay, to Brisbane? The unification of the railway gauges is an important matter commercially, and there are people who say that from a defence point of view it is imperative. I notice in the Hansard report of the debate on the Address-in-Reply that Senator Newland was good enough to say that, in his opinion, the war had taught us that it did not matter very much, from a military stand-point, whether the gauges were unified. Senator Newland said -

In that regard we have a lesson to learn from the war. We were previously told that it would take many weeks to transport troops and munitions from one point to another with the breaks of gauge; but the fact is that disciplined troops can transfer themselves as quickly from train to train as a man can with his wife, family, and baggage. Every soldier jumps to his post, and such transfers would not take more than a few minutes.

Senator Duncan interjected, I think quite properly, “ A man cannot take a field gun under his arm.” In order to get over that difficulty, Senator Newland said -

No; but ten or a dozen men can make short work of the transfer of such a weapon. In any case, the difficulties of transporting troops and munitions were found to be unexpectedly slight during the war.

I do not profess to be a military expert, but it is generally considered by the man in the street that it would be much easier to transport troops and munitions if there were no breaks of gauge. Senator Newland, I have no doubt, is a great expert on military matters, as well as on all other matters. It came as news to me that the break of gauge was not a difficulty.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I did not consult the honorable senator. I ought to have got his opinion, perhaps.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am sorry if the honorable senator thinks I am saying something unkind. To-day I happened to be reading in one of the newspapers a report by the Inspector-General, General Chauvel, who, I believe, does know something of military matters.

Senator Pearce:

– He showed that be knew a little in the last war.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– We understood that he did. I do not know much about him, but he is generally regarded as knowing something about war.

Senator Crawford:

– Is the honorable senator quoting General Chauvel’s views with reservations?

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am giving them for what they are worth. He speaks of the unification of the railway gauges as being essential from a military standpoint. The report says -

He again directed attention to the serious situation which, in the event of troops being mobilized for defence, would confront Australia through a lack of suitable railway communications and a uniform gauge. Recent conferences, inaugurated by the Prime Minister, had acknowledged the ultimate necessity for a uniform gauge on commercial and industrial grounds, but did not appear to have fully realized the vital necessity in the interests of the safety of the Commonwealth. He regretted that a definite determination to carry out the work of unification was not even in view.

Those are the views of a man who is looked upon by the military authorities as being one of the leading officers in Australia, and who has been appointed to a very high and responsible position. We ought not to treat such an opinion with contempt.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

-; - He agrees with me in the main.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am very glad two such high authorities agree. I can now come in without difficulty, although I trembled a little previously.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– It would be very interesting for us to learn upon what they agree.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I understand that they agree that the unification of gauges is necessary for the defence of Australia, and, that being ‘ so, the Government should press on with the job as quickly as possible. I know- that the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) has spoken on various occasions of the necessity for unification. It is part and parcel of the Governor-General’s Speech, and I think we all agree with it; but we must recognise that without the consent of Victoria and South Australia the scheme cannot be carried through. In that event, is the Government prepared to fall in line with New South Wales, Western Australia, and Queensland ? I understand that the Queensland Government are prepared to build a line from Brisbane to New South Wales; Sir George Fuller, Premier of New South

Wales; stated in his policy speech that he would carry the line to the borders of South Australia via Hay or Condobolin; and the Western Australian Government is ready to do the work from Perth to Kalgoorlie. There is, therefore, only a very small section in South Australian territory that the States are not prepared to undertake. If the South Australian Government is not prepared to build this small section, the Federal Government ought to undertake it. It seems to me that a line vid Hay, Wentworth, and Mildura would be a great advantage to the people of South Australia. If the South Australian Government do not wish to participate in the scheme of unification we cannot force them, and in that case we would be perfectly justified in proceeding with the work. I was pleased to notice that Senator Lynch submitted a question on this point. I had not noticed that the honorable senator had asked the question, and I submitted one on similar lines, but in both instances the reply was quite indefinite, and it would be just as well if we had a straight-out announcement from the Government.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– Is the honorable senator still referring to. the unification of the gauges?

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Not to schemes suggested by the experts ; but to the alternative proposal if Victoria and South Australia will not participate.

Senator Crawford:

– The honorable senator is suggesting the construction of a new line.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– That is so. Senator Lynch’s question reads -

In the event of a decision not being come to by the Commonwealth and the States on the question of standardizing the railway gauges within a reasonable time, will the Government think well of going ahead with the work by instalments, e.g., by seeking an agreement with the States of New South Wales and Queensland, whereby the capitals of Sydney and Brisbane may be connected by means of - the standard line; also, a similar agreement with Western Australia for widening the gauge between Kalgoorlie and Fremantle ?

The answer of the Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) was as follows: -

It is believed that arrangements for the commencement of the work in several States can be made, and as soon as negotiations now proceeding have been concluded, the Parliament will be asked to discuss the matter with a view to giving the necessary authority to proceed with the work.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– That seems to be a very definite statement.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It may be, but it does not lead us anywhere. Does it mean that the work vid Adelaide and Melbourne will be proceeded with, or that the work suggested by Senator Lynch will be carried out?

Senator Crawford:

– Nothing can be done without parliamentary approval.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Another matter of importance in connexion with War Service Homes administration is the large number of houses built by the Department, but now standing empty. I understood that certain action was being taken by the Board in Queensland to endeavour to dispose of them, but recently I have found quite a number of houses built on the group system still unoccupied, chiefly, I believe, because the price is too high to enable the soldier applicant to make his repayments satisfactorily, and because in many instances the houses have been built so far from . the city that the cost of going to and from a soldier’s place of employment would be prohibitive for men on comparatively small wages. For instance, a number of houses have been built at Sandgate, 12 miles from Brisbane. In that case the train to and from Brisbane must be an important item of expenditure for the average man. Other houses have been built at Nundah, which are too great a, distance from the station. I have noticed also that where these group houses have been built on a speculative basis there is very little variation in design and none as regards painting, with the result that the scheme generally is not so attractive as it might be.

– Because Senator Cox has had to suffer the slight discomfort due to a break of gauge, he is prepared to plunge Australia into the expenditure of millions without any thought of the consequences.

I have one word to say on the matter of defence. I read with very great interest General Chauvel’s report. Though I have now no active part in the Defence Force I still converse frequently with my old comrades, and I am in a position to say that the great burden of the complaint of battalion commanders, on whom the real burden of training devolves, is that they and their adjutants are compelled to spend too much time in their offices compiling reports. I hope that0 some serious effort will be made to do away with the necessity for all this paper work. If we are to have any sort of an efficient nucleus - because that is all our Army at present amounts to - we shall have to cut out all this office work, and let our battalion commanders and the staff concentrate on the actual training of the troops.

Senator GARLING:
New South Wales

– In the absence of Senator Benny, who, I understand, is preparing to debate the situation, but is waiting until the hands of the clock pass round to 9 a.m., I propose to occupy the time of honorable senators for a few minutes. I did not join in the criticism of Ministers for delaying the introduction of this Supply Bill until this afternoon, because I had’ a copy of it in my box, and had an opportunity of looking it over since early last week. If honorable senators have any criticism to offer they have had a week in which to make up their minds as to what they will say.

Having regard to the claim of the Government that they intend to provide better postal and telephonic facilities, there are two matters of great importance to the man on the land to which I should like to refer. In many outlying districts settlers are so situated in contrast to town dwellers that they are unable to have the advantage of telephone communication, and so cannot get into touch with centres of population. I wish- to suggest that if, by some means, the Commonwealth Government could arrange with the State Governments for the general use of telephones installed at railway sidings and railway stations, many persons who are not in a position to make use of general telephone lines would gladly pay for the use of the facilities afforded at railway sidings and stations. This would enable them, in the event of sickness or fire, or some important contingency, to get into touch with some centre. I hope that the Government will take notice of this suggestion.

Another matter of importance to people in outlying districts is that in the delivery of registered mails, a mailman who passes many farms delivers registered matter under a system by which notice is given to a farmer that on a certain day the mailman will pass his homestead, and will leave the registered matter addressed to him. If the farmer happens to be away from home at the time the mailman calls the registered package is taken back to the post-office by the mailman, and the farmer is then given notice that he must come in to the post-office to obtain it. I suggest that the simple remedy for that state of things is that, when registered mail matter is taken back to the post-office, the farmer should have the right to send word to the post-office that if the mailman will call at his place at a certain hour, he will be ready to receive the parcel.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– We cannot have a mailman running a route, altering his schedule.

Senator GARLING:

– I da not suggest that he should alter his schedule, but that the farmer to whom registered mail matter is addressed should, if he misses it on the mailman’s first trip, be able to write into the post-office, and say that he will be ready to receive it on his next trip, and should not be obliged to go into the postoffice for his registered mail. Those are the only two matters I wish to bring under the notice of the Minister on this occasion. I have taken up less time than any other speaker, so far, on the motion for the first reading of the Bill, and I have directed attention to two matters of very great importance to the man on the land.

Senator E D MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator MacDonald:

– But his claim is that the Department broke its contract first.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The simple fact is that the contract was made for £775, and I say he broke it. Senator MacDonald’s statement would lead one to believe that there were many such cases. All sorts of ridiculous statements concerning the Department are being made in supposedly reputable journals. I read the other day in a leading article in a journal, which no doubt claims to be the leading newspaper in Brisbane, a statement that the War Service Homes Commission had 3,000,000,000 feet of timber stacked in Victoria. Obviously that statement is an absurdity. Any yarn, apparently, can be circulated against the Government, and is believed.

The number of empty houses was referred to by Senator MacDonald. He said, I think, that there were about 200 empty houses in’ Queensland, while several soldiers were clamouring to get into them. We have not that number of houses in Queensland, and unfortunately . we have very few soldier applicants now. And the reason is this. When the Department started operations these men, attracted probably by the prospect of owning their own homes, applied in great numbers for homes to be built for them. Now it appears that they are not coming forward. Some of them say that they think they can get better worth elsewhere, and, anyhow, they do not like to take over an obligation to pay extending over so many years. In other words, they have withdrawn their applications, and we now have a certain number of houses that are unoccupied. It has been said in explanation that they are in unsuitable localities.

Senator MacDonald:

– I think Senator Poll raised the question of suitability of location.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– I believe the honorable senator is quite right, but at all events Senator MacDonald urged that one reason why these applications had been withdrawn was that there was unemployment in Queensland. I do not think the War Service Homes Administration can be charged with that, at all events.

This brings me to the point that apparently the Commonwealth Government are held responsible for unemployment, and I ask the Senate to consider that “we had 260,000 men who came back from the war. What in normal times is considered to- be -a fair percentage of unemployed in this country ? Let the percentage in normal times be compared with the percentage of the 260,000 returned soldiers who went to the war and came back, and are now unemployed. I cannot say exactly what the number of unemployed is to-day. It is regrettable that there are any,, but the percentage is surprisingly and gratifyingly small.’ Speaking from memory, the trade, unions who keep a register of their unemployed membersgive from 2 to 8’ per cent, as being unemployed. I should imagine that a fair average would be about 5 per cent. It must be remembered that these are skilled tradesmen, and not men who have been unsettled by the war. Take the figure of 5 percent., double it, and apply it to these returned soldiers, bearing in mind the experiences through which they have gone. They have slipped out of their niche in life, and have to’ get back to it. Ten per cent, of unemployment, among these men could not be regarded, as. abnormal, and certainly would compare favorably with the percentage in other countries. Ten. per cent, would mean that 26,000 of the- men would be unemployed, but I do not think that, the number is. anything approaching that. The percentage of returned soldiers, unemployed to-day will compare favorably with the percentage of unemployment in the ranks of the civilian section of the population.

Senator Wilson:

– There is notthe same moral obligation in the- case of the. civilian as the soldier.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

- Senator MacDonald said that there was the same moral obligation to prevent the ‘men starving. If the Commonwealth Government be responsible, the effect of its failure and its sins of omission and’ commission must be found equally throughout Australia; but here I can remind the honorable gentleman that the first occasion on which unemployment reared its ugly head in recent times was- in Brisbane two . and. a. half years ; ago.

Senator MacDonald:

– It was . raised at every general election.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– Who was it chased the Minister down there.?

Senator MacDonald:

– Professional leaders of the unemployed.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– They were the men to whom the Queensland. Government; had: been appealing shortly before.

It was in the State of Queensland, controlled for so long by a Labour Government, that unemployment first became an awkward public question ; but to say that there are unemployed in Brisbane merely because men have gone from, the other States to. find work in the State in which unemployment first made its appearance, is to talk utter nonsense. Unemployment was heard of in Brisbane before it was heard of here, and it has grown ten times faster there than it has grown here.

Senator MacDonald:

– I have received deputations of unemployed ten years before the- question was talked of here.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– I again remind the honorable senator that he is losing his fondness for the Standing Orders.

I pass- on to the remarks of Senator Thomas. The peculiarity of Senator Thomas is that he always wants something definite, and now he is asking for something definite regarding the unification of . the railway gauges. I have heard some arguments to-night . for and against that proposal. I venture to say that everybody would like a uniform gauge. There is no room for argument as to to its desirability, and the only question is whether it should be done now or at a later date. Senator Thomas put forward what, to’ me, is an unanswerable argument, namely, that if we cannot . afford- the money required today we have to bear- in, mind- that it. will cost, us a. much larger sum later on.Railway building will not stop in the- meantime. There is a proposal now to build’ several railways in New South Wales on the Victorian gauge. I do not know how that fact, strikes honorable senators, but I can hardly think it a businesslike procedure to build such railways while this question is being considered, and when, in theory, a uniform gauge has been approved. Senator Thomas, wants- to know the attitude of the Government. The Government, as Senator Thomas knows,, is trying to get an agreement with the- States to carry this matter through, but he says, “ If you fail, in this, what then? ” I do not thinkthatwhen we are engaged- in negotiations’ it is wise to proceed to- discuss alternatives. There seems’ to me to be a great disadvantage in doing that. The Government does, not despair of’ securing an arrangement’ which will enable’ the uniform gauge to be adopted. I do not know that

I need say any mote than that, but I think the Senate will recognise that if we should come finally to the position that a majority of four States in the union are willing to adopt the proposal, and that one State stands out, the four States are not likely to submit to having their interests frustrated in perpetuity because of a disinclination of one State to join them in the enterprise.

Senator Thomas also asked me a question regarding amounts of taxation collected. I presume that he referred to a question which was on the business-paper the other day, in which he asked for the percentage of returns of land, Customs, and income taxation raised in the different States. I am afraid that Senator Thomas could not have given to my answer that consideration which I think its importance deserved. It stated -

The Commissioner of Taxation explains that the statistics kept, do not show what portions of the income tax, the war-time profits tax, and the estate duty assessed in the Central Taxation Office are applicable to each State. The figures regarding income tax and those in the answer to question 2 (land tax) are therefore approximate only.

That is the information I gave to Senator Thomas then, and I must assume that he has overlooked that portion of it.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The Minister, it appears, cannot tell us how much New South Wales actually pays.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– The amounts are approximate, and one must assume that when officers trained to the work state an approximate amount, it is reasonably accurate.

Senator Thomas also wished to know about the Public Service Bill. I cannot be certain that I have taken his words literally, but I think he said that the Government represented that the Bill would bring about greater efficiency, and would be of considerable advantage to the country and the Public Service, and he wanted to know if the Government to going on with it. In the GovernorGeneral’s Speech it was announced that the Bill had passed this Senate, and we were asked tq1 send a message to the other House to revive the Bill and proceed with’ it. That is the answer to Senator Thomas’ question. The Government is proceeding with the Bill, and if it has not made such progress with that and other legislation as Senator Thomas desires,

I hope he. will place the blame on the right shoulders. The .delay is not the fault of the Government.

Senator MacDonald in passing, and Senator Foll at greater length, referred to the question of the Canungra Saw Mills. I would like to thank Senator Elliott for his remarks in that connexion. They set out the position as it is known to any honorable senator who likes to recall the circumstances of the time - a position so obviously ignored by those who attempt to criticise the Department. The mills were purchased at a. time when it was not possible to get the material -necessary for building the homes. After that, somehow or other, there came a “bolt from the blue,” not only in the timber trade, but in other trades also. Honor-, able senators can learn all about that if they question the merchants in Flinders- - lane or any member of the mercantile community. For some reason or otherthere was a great slump in values, and this depreciated the stocks, of timber that we held.

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– The mills were good value when they were purchased.

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– That is so. It was no good carrying on the mills to sell timber to the public. We cannot sell the timber to-day. I do not hesitate to say that the big men in the timber trade of Australia will not buy from us, and the small men dare not. Rightly or wrongly, the Government is anxious to quit, but’ personally I am not disposed to give a thing away because there is some sign of an understanding among those who are interested in buying. I do not think that we should sacrifice the property we have under the impulse of an undue impatience. Therefore, whilst the Government is endeavouring to quit, and considers that it is a right thing to clean the? business up,, it is not prepared to sacrifice the mills, and incur a bigger loss than is justified.

Senator Senior:

– Does the Government use any of the timber in other Departments ?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– It would not pay to start the mill for the supply of timber to other Departments.

Senator Senior:

– What about ths timber already cut?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– I do not know what they have cut. They are trying to sell in the log, and I .do not know that the other Departments could take the timber in that form. I think they have been communicated with, but now that the honorable gentleman has raised thequestion I shall inquire into it again to-morrow.

Senator GARDINER:
NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; PROG LAB from 1928

asked two questions. The first was whether something could not be done to use the railway telephone lines in the interests of settlers. It is twenty-five years since I tried to get the railways to do that. It rests with them. If Senator Garling thinks it is an excellent scheme, and has a chance of success, I suggest that he should spend a few weeks at the door of the Railways Commissioners of New South Wales, and see what progress he can make. I tell him frankly that I could make no progress.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator E. D. MILLEN (Now- South

Wales) [10.30].- I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Supply Bill No. 2, which is for a period of one month, totals £1,763,025, and is made up as follows: -

It will be noticed that the provision for ordinary services of the Departments in the present Supply Bill is £198,825 less than that provided for in the first Supply Bill. This reduction is mainly in the provision for salaries, because under the present system of fortnightly pays it was necessary to provide for three pay days in the first Supply Bill, whereas in the present measure provision is made for only two pay days, the latter of which falls on the 1st September. The provision under Treasurer’s Advance is necessary to provide money for continuing works in progress at the close of last financial year. This money is being applied only to works which have already been approved by

Parliament. In the first Supply Bill it was necessary to provide under Treasurer’s Advance for moneys to furnish working credit in the Printing and other Trust Accounts. This expenditure is not recurring. In addition, there is an unexpended balance remaining from the amount granted in the first Supply Bill. It has been found possible, therefore, to reduce the provision under Treasurer’s Advance by £450,000. The provision for refunds of revenue in the present Bill is £100,000, as compared with. £170,000 provided in Supply Bill No. 1. This reduction is largely on account of the refunds of revenue , received from direct taxation, which were unusually heavy in the month of July. The total of the two Supply Bills for ordinary departmental expenditure is £2,924,875, which is made up by £1,561,850 under Supply Bill No. 1, and £1,363,025 under Supply Bill No.

This provision is based upon the estimated expenditure for the last financial year. The estimated expenditure under ordinary votes for 1921-22. included the annual payment under refunding arrangements of £5,548,815, whereas during the present financial year this amount willbe paid from a special appropriation. After deducting this provision the total estimate of ordinary departmental expenditure for the- last financial year was £19,166,467. Onesixth of this amount to cover two months’ expenditure is £3,194,411, so that the Supply the Senate is being asked to grant for two months’ expenditure is £269,536, less- than one-sixth of the total estimated expenditure for last year. The two months refer to the Supply Bill already passed and the amount’ covered by the present measure.

The PRESIDENT:

– The previous debate is closed, and the only person. having the right of reply was the Minister for . Repatriation . (Senator E. D. Millen). The Minister having replied the debate is now closed, and as it is clearly laid down in the Standing Orders that matters referred to in a previous debate cannot be re-opened, . and that a passing reference -can only be made, I cannot allow the honorable senator to proceed.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Schedule.

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

– Under the Prime Minister’s Department there is an : item, “ . Commercial Agency, ‘Paris.” . It will, I think, be within the iremembrance of honorable senators, andthe Minister for Repatriation (SenatorE . D. Millen) that, on a previous Supply Bill and on the Appropriation Bill last year, Iraised. a question of the adequacy of our representation in -Paris. I then pointed out that Australians visiting Paris were unable to obtain any information of a useful character from the Australian representatives in that city, as the . directories, and such other publications which would enable persons who wished to do business with as, were, in some cases, five years old. I think it -was -said, during -the course of the debate,that persons visitingParis were dependent upon Australia House, in London, for whatever information ‘they desired, ‘and the blame ‘was attributed to Australia House, if people -who wanted information could not get -what they required. I desire to know if that condition of affairs stillprevails, or whether it has been remedied?

Senator E D MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– I can recall the honorable senator bringing the matter up on a previous occasion, and pursuant to my promise representations were made to the Department concerned, when an . assurance was given that steps would be taken to remedy ‘the defects. I cannot saythat I have inquired recently,but some time ago, I was assured that the position had been rectified.

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

Senator KEATING:

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

.- Is the item “Advance to Treasurer, £300,000,” an annual or . a monthly expenditure? If it is a monthly expenditure I should like the Minister to make a definite statement as to whether it is the intention of the Government to conduct the elections, with this amount. The Minister will agree that £300,000 under this head as a monthly expenditure

Tuns into a very large amount, and I should like to know the purpose of it.

Senator E D MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

.- Just as we are thinking of going to bed, I am surprised that the honorable senator should make the unpleasant suggestion he has.

Senator Gardiner:

– Will you give an assurance that there is to be no election?

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

– On account of the conduct of my honorable friends outside, I can give no assurance. This advance is merely to carry on those works which have been approved by Parliament, and the votes for which stopped on the 30th June. The advance is used for this purpose until the Senate grants further credit. Of course, it is out of this fund that the Government meets any contingencies that arise, and afterwards submits the expenditure for the approval of Parliament. Honorable senators may he sure that it will notbe out of this Supply that the expenses of the election will be met.

Schedule agreed to.

Preamble and title agreed to.

Bill reported without request; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

Senate adjourned at 11.27 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 17 August 1922, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1922/19220817_senate_8_100/>.

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Senate17 August 1922

PAPERS

QUESTION

IMPORTS OF HOPS

Senator MILLEN:TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator EARLE:Vice-President of the Executive Council · TASMANIA · NAT

QUESTION

WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY

Senator MILLEN:TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator EARLE:NAT

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

TIMBER

Introduction of Insect Pests

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator EARLE:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH WOOLLEN MILLS

Senator LYNCH:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

TAXATION DEPARTMENT

Senator DUNCAN:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

NAURU AND OCEAN ISLAND

Senator GARDINER:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

REPATRIATION

Senator SENIOR:SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

IRON AND STEEL,

Senator DUNCAN:for Senator Gardiner

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator LYNCH:

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

BOY SCOUT MOVEMENT

Senator REID:QUEENSLAND

Senator PEARCE:Minister for Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

NATIONALITY BILL

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) 1922-23

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Pearce:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Earle:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Keating:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Benny:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Wilson:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Crawford:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:Western Australia

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:

Senator E D MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:

Senator KEATING:Tasmania

Senator Pearce:

Senator KEATING:

Senator Pearce:

Senator KEATING:

Senator Pearce:

Senator KEATING:

Senator Pearce:

Senator KEATING:

Senator Pearce:

Senate
17 August 1922

Senator MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator EARLE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · TASMANIA · NAT

Senator MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator EARLE:
NAT

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator JOHN D MILLEN:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator EARLE:
NAT

Senator LYNCH:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DUNCAN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator GARDINER:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator SENIOR:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DUNCAN:
for Senator Gardiner

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator REID:
QUEENSLAND

Senator PEARCE:
Minister for Home and Territories · WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:
Western Australia

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator LYNCH:
Western Australia

Senator GARDINER:
New South Wales

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator BENNY:
South Australia

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator GARDINER:
NewSouth Wales

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917

Senator E D MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913; NAT from 1917