Senate
30 September 1920

8^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- PENSIONS FOR THE BLIND
PAPER
QUESTION
- SUGAR
QUESTION
- BANKRUPTCY LAW
QUESTION
- IMMIGRATION
WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL
POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL
- Second Reading
QUESTION
- SENATOR E. D. MILLEN
POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL
- Second Reading

The President (Senator the Hon.. T. Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 5131

QUESTION

PENSIONS FOR THE BLIND

Senator EARLE:
TASMANIA

– I ask the VicePresident of the Executive Council (Senator Russell) -whether he has any announcement to make concerning the policy of the Government regarding the rate of pension to be paid to the blind pensioners?

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

– Yes. The Government have arrived at a decision on the question, and the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) is now fixing up the details. I hope to be in a position to make a definite announcement on the subject tomorrow.

page 5131

PAPER

The following paper was presented: -

Public Service Act. - Appointments of H. Morrell, J. Sutherland, F. Considine, B. A. Newton, and A. J. Allen, Department of Trade and Customs.

page 5131

QUESTION

SUGAR

Shortagein South Australia

Senator SENIOR:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and. Customs, upon notice -

Has his attention been drawn to the remarks of the Honorable G. B. Laffer, as reported in theSouth Australian Register of 26th September, re shortage of sugar?
Is it true that South Australian interests have been sacrificed by the Federal authorities ?
Has the Federal Government, as alleged, allowed the matter to drift?
Is the statement correct, as reported, that “ the political pull of the eastern States,” or any other “ pull,” has given the above-mentioned States a better deal than South Australia?

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

– The answersare - .

Yes. 2, 3, 4. No.

page 5131

QUESTION

BANKRUPTCY LAW

Senator KEATING:
TASMANIA

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Pending the consideration by the House of Representatives of the Tariff and other matters necessarily initiated in that Chamber, will the Government introduce into the Senate a Bill to unify and codify the law relating to bankruptcy throughout the Commonwealth?

SenatorRUSSELL. - A Bankruptcy Bill, which was prepared a ‘ considerable time ago, is under revision, and ‘the question of introducing the measure will be considered at the earliest opportunity.

page 5132

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION

Senator DE LARGIE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minis ter representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Under the Federal immigration scheme, does the Government provide free passages from tha United Kingdom to Australia for immig rants who propose to settle on the land in the C ommonwealth?
To what extent are assisted passages provided for immigrants coming from the United Kingdom to the Commonwealth?

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

– The answers are -

In’ accordance wilh the decision arrived at at the Conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers, held in Melbourne in July last, steps are now being taken to formulate an immigration scheme. Copies of the report of the Conference will shortly be made available to honorable members. The Commonwealth proposes to assume financial responsibility for the organization of emigrants from overseas, and for their transport to Australia.
In the past, the State Governments have provided assisted passages to emigrants coming from Great Britain to Australia, but, as indicated in reply to No. 1, the Commonwealth now propose to assume financial responsibility for the transport of emigrants to the Commonwealth.

page 5132

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

Bill returned from the House of Representatives with’ amendments.

page 5132

POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 29th September (vide page 5065), on motion by Senator Russell -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– In beginning the debate on the motion for the second reading of this Bill, I am rather sorry to have to strike perhaps a jarring note; hut, as the measure involves an addition of nearly £1,000,000 to the taxation of this country, I feel that the Minister (Senator Russell), in moving the second reading of the measure, might well have made a more lengthy and less perfunctory statement concerning it. He practically asked that we should pass this Bill, definitely increasing the postage on ordinary letters from1d. to 2d., because, as I understood him, the price of galvanized iron has gone up a little.

Senator Russell:

– I beg the honorable senator’s pardon. I spoke of galvanized iron wire.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I understood the Minister to say that galvanized iron, wire, and one or two other things have gone up a little in price, and, consequently, it is necessary that we should do away with penny postage, and substitute for it a twopenny rate. I rather think that the time has gone by for a discussion on the advantage of penny postage. There have been discussions in times past, not only in this country, but in many other countries, as to the advantage or disadvantage of penny postage, hut I think that the battle has been definitely won for penny postage. It is admittedly of great benefit to the people, and, in my opinion, no substantial argument can be urged against it. I am aware that some persons argue that it does not pay. Some years ago, when this question was being discussed, the argument was advanced that if we substituted penny postage for the twopenny rate- then in force, the alteration would involve a tremendous loss of revenue. It was natural to assume that in the first twelve months after the introduction of penny postage some. loss of revenue would be sustained; but the statistics of all countries go to show how very soon the adoption of penny -postage has paid for itself. In 1899-1900, the last year of twopenny postage in Victoria, Victoria showed a total revenue from that source of £425,000. One penny postage was then adopted, and ten years afterwards - that is, in 1909-10 - the receipts from that source were £561,000.

Senator Earle:

– There was a great increase of population, of course.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I admit that there was an increase in population, and we have also to take into consideration the fact that the business of a Postal Department generally grows year by year, as the children leavethe schools, and more’ people begin- to Tead and write, and com-‘ merce and . trade increase. Still the figures’ show that penny postage brought in not only all that was being earned by twopenny postage, but a certain amount extra.

Senator Wilson:

– That does not prove anything unless you ‘tell us how much extra it cost to do the business.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I was simply showing that, so far as the revenue is concerned, any falling off is very quickly made up. I have not the exact figures as to the expenditure, hut the difference is very little, because ‘the letter-carriers are able to handle the extra number of letters, and very -few more sorters are required.

Senator Wilson:

– The Minister’s argument was that the postage rate had to be increased on account of the extra cost; but you say the extra cost is very little.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Perhaps I misunderstood the honorable senator. I thought he was referring to the difference in cost between a penny and a twopenny postage system. I did not think he meant the extra cost of the whole Department over what it was some years ago.

Senator Wilson:

– You cannot quote figures like that unless you give the debit and credit.

SenatorTHOMAS. - I could answer the honorable senator better if I knew exactly what information he wanted. I can assure him that the cost of handling the £561,000 business in 1910 was very little more than the cost of handling the £425,000 business in 1900.

Senator Wilson:

-The honorable senator thinks so.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I will show the honorable senator why I know. I had the pleasure of introducing penny postage in the other House, and I was looking over, a few minutes ago, the remarks I made on that occasion. I saw the exact figures there as to cost, and I noticed that the difference was very small. However, that can be very easily demonstrated..

We in Australia went in for penny postage in 1911-12. Some people predicted a large loss; but the figures are rather interesting. Through the appointment of Mr. Triggs and Mr. Haldane, in 1911-12, we are in a position to know exactly whether the Postal Branch, the Telephone Branch, or the Telegraph

Branch pays. Previous to their appointment, and the adoption of the new system of accounts, we found great difficulty in ascertaining whether the branches were showing a profit or a loss. The first year of the complete operation of penny postage was 1912-13, when the Postal Branch showed a credit balance of £23,132. It is very fine to know that, so far as Australia is concerned, the letter-carrying branch of the Department paid under1d. postage in the first year of its operation. In that year the whole Department went behind to the extent of £407,000 ; but that was because the Telegraph Branch lost £164,000, and the Telephone Branch £221,000. There was a loss in that year on penny postage in South Australia, Queensland, Western Australia, and, I think, Tasmania; but there was a profit of from £20,000 to £30,000 in New South Wales, and in Victoria of over £100,000, with the result that, taking Australia as a whole, penny postage paid in that year. In 1913-14 the profit on penny postage was again £24,000; but the loss on the telegraphs and telephones were still very heavy, and the completeloss on the whole Department was about £500,000. In 1914- 15, when the war started, the conditions were very different, and the Postal Branch showed a loss of £71,000. In 1915- 16 there was, however, a profit of £42,000. In 1916-17 there was a very large loss of £168,000 ; but the then PostmasterGeneral, in his report, showed that the reasons were the payment of an extra sum to the United Kingdom for heavy adjustments, and the payment of a good deal of extra money to the railways. In the next year, 1917-1S, the Postal Branch made a profit of £237,000, which the then Postmaster-General explained by showing that the Department paid in the previous year to the railways more than it ought to have paid, and by an adjustment had to pay that year a great deal less.. It would be right and fair., therefore, to put the two years, 1916-17 and 1917-1S, together. Even then, the Postal Branch would come out about £70,000 to the good. The profit in 1918-19 on penny postage was £239,000, and with telegraph and telephone services the full profit was £524,000.I do not think we have the figures yet for 1920.

Senator Russell:

– They are only estimates.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– During .the last two years a good profit has been .made on penny postage, and, in addition, the halfpenny increase, imposed as a wartime tax., resulted last year in an amount of no less than £.750,000 being handed over to the Treasury.

There is ‘another matter which I think should be emphasized, and which I raised <on more tha-n one occasion in. the House of Representatives, namely, the subsidy of £170,000 per year paid to the Orient Steamship Company for the maintenance of the mail service between Australia and Great Britain. It is very unfair that the whole of this amount should be charged up against the Postal Department of .the ‘Commonwealth, because, under the terms of the contract, the Orient Company have to give other services, such as the maintenance of refrigerating chambers, and they have to ,go on to Sydney, whereas for the mail: service alone they need not now come past Fremantle. Some other Department, probably Customs, ought to pay a portion of this subsidy. I .am ‘also strongly opposed to the practice of making the Postal Department ‘a ‘tax-collector. The people must expect to pay for all services rendered; and, .1 think, now that we are not under war conditions, it is unfair to use the Post Office as .a tax-gathering institution.

I have shown that during the last year or two the operations of the Postal Department have been ‘successful. I am prepared to admit that the , profits in 1917-18 and 1919 were not quite legitimate, because in the Telephone Branch especially the Postmaster-General was unable to obtain the material necessary for the development and extension of service. It is only fair, therefore, that w.e should take these facts into consideration. I differ from my honorable friend, Senator Pratten, in regard to the complaint that the ex-Postmaster-General was unable to get from the Treasury the money required for the development of departmental services. Whilst the war. was on, everything was in the melting-pot, and the Postal Department had to be starved in order that there might be ample money for the prosecution of the war. I would raise no particular objection if, during war time, ihe activities of the Department were not extended as in normal -times, because during that period matters of greater importance had to take precedence. Although some of the profit may not be regarded .as quite legitimate, in view of -the fact that part of the services have been starved, owing, as I have shown, to war conditions, still the Post Office has paid without the services being unduly cut down’ or the efficiency of the Department impaired. I recognise, of course, that one of the most difficult problems is the country mail services, in connexion with which the ex-Postmaster-General was bitterly, -assailed, chiefly by country members, because he was obliged to cut down some of the country mail! contracts. But there ace two sides to this question. We .are all anxious that the country should be opened .up by the establishment of mail facilities, but, unfortunately, during all drought .periods the Postmaster-General finds it extremely difficult to get men to carry . on the services, and has to pay a good -deal more for the handling of less mail matter.- Taking all these facts into consideration, -‘and in spite of the difficulties in regard to the country mail services to which I have referred, .the penny postage throughout Australia has been profitable. That being so, it seems unwise now to .abandon it, because I am .afraid that if we adopt the twopenny postage rate we shall have it for a good, many years, probably for the lifetime of some of us. I understood the Vice-President of’ the Executive Council (Senator Russell) to state, during his second-reading speech, that the Government hoped to raise an additional £1,000,000 by the increased rates. It is rather unfortunate that we should be asked to discuss the second reading of this or any other Bill before we have had an opportunity of perusing the Minister’s .second-reading speech in Hamsard..

Senator Russell:

– I agree , with the honorable senator, but it is difficult to do that in all cases.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Yes, and the re: ceipts from two-penny postage will go to the Postal Department.

I come now to the telephone rates: These, I understand, are to be raised a farthing per call in respect of all telephones connected with exchanges which possess more than 600 subscribers. We have- been told that this represents a great concession to country residents. The Government affirm that they do not wish to penalize people who live in rural areas more than is absolutely necessary, and therefore they intend exempting them from the payment of the extra farthing which is to be charged upon all originating telephone calls. But they stipulate that this concession can be made only in the case of exchanges which possess more than 600 subscribers. Only last Monday and Tuesday I was in the Blue Mountains, New South “Wales. It is a delightful spot where one can live under almost ideal conditions. At Katoomba, where there is a telephone exchange with less than 600 subscribers, one can get into communication with quite a number of adjacent places, including Wentworth Falls and Medlow. Now, the majority of the tourists who visit those centres are fairly well-to-do. Yet they are not to be charged the farthing extra upon the telephone calls which they make. I can go to the Golf Club at Wentworth Falls - a nice residential club - and there I can get into communication with Melbourne or Sydney. But, under this Bill, I shall not be called upon to pay an additional farthing “per ring, because there are not 600 subscribers connected with the exchange there. Surely that is something in the nature of an anomaly!1 Under this measure the pioneer, who goes into the backblocks of Australia to blaze a track, will be required to pay 2d. postage upon each letter that he writes. It would be far better to allow his letters to be carried for Id. each, and to require him to pay the extra id. upon his telephone calls. After all, the moment one can use a telephone he is in touch with civilization. It is not the cost of the calls which prevents country settlers from having the telephone -connected with their farms - it is the expenditure upon the poles.

Senator Russell:

– Will not the extra revenue derived from the telephone calls enable us to ease down the cost of the postage ?

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The extra charge of a farthing per call will produce very little revenue. It would be far better to permit people to have their letters carTied for Id. instead of charging them 2d. postage upon them, than to abandon the proposed extra farthing upon their telephone calls. At this juncture I may perhaps be pardoned for reading a brief extract from a speech made upon this question by the present Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) a few years ago.

Senator Russell:

– Is this ancient or modern history?

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Modern. Upon 8th November, 1910, when I introduced the Bill to give effect to penny postage throughout the Commonwealth, Sir Joseph Cook, who was then Leader of the Opposition, gave me his hearty support. In the course of his speech and in answer to an interjection by me he said -

I am Socialist enough to support everything that helps to develop social intercourse, the increased facilities of which are one of the chief benefits of our civilization. I very much regret the step taken in regard to the telephones

He was then referring to the Government proposal to charge a half-penny per originating call. He went on to say -

The inventor of the instrument intended it to be not merely a convenience for the transaction of business but something much more - an aid to the expansion of the social intercourse upon which we so much pride ourselves. Whosoever succeeds the present PostmasterGeneral will, I hope, restore the telephone to its proper use as an aid to social intercourse instead of regarding it merely as a convenience for business men.

At that time he was of opinion that the telephone rate which was then proposed was too high.

Senator Russell:

– But from 1910 to 1920 is a long way.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Does the honorable senator know that the pay of those persons has nothing: to do withthe revenue?

Senator EARLE:

– I know that quite well, but I say that the service rendered by the Postal Department should be paid for , at a rate- which will enable the Commonwealth to offer these people more equitable remuneration than they now (receive-.

What I ‘am chiefly concerned about’ is whether the calculations of the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) as tothe increased revenue to be derived from the higher rates proposed have been based on the business* done by the Department in pre-war days. If they are, the right honorable gentleman may find that he will not realize the £792,000 which he anticipates from the postal rates proposed. There can be no doubt that large numbers of people will be reluctant to write as many letters when the postage rate is 2d. as they wrote when, the postage rate was1d.. There will, in all probability,, be a diminution in, the volume of business done by the Postal Department which may involve a material reduction in the anticipated revenue. The Treasurer estimates that he will receive from the increased postage rates additional revenue to the extent of £7.92,000, and from the increased postal and telegraph rates combined, additional revenue to the extent of £1,233,000. I do not suppose that the increased rates to be charged on telegrams will make a very great difference in the number of telegraphic messages despatched’, but I have very little doubt that with, the increased postage rates proposed there will be a considerable decrease in the number of letters posted. So the question tha’t exercises my mind is whether the increased revenue anticipated by the Treasurer will be realized.

I am particularly interested in the postal facilities given to the people in the country districts. One thing which should’ concern legislators in Australia is the’ necessity for- making country life’ more attractive than it has been in the past, and one way in which this can be done is by establishing an extensive and convenient post and telegraph service. The postage of books- to the country- is- a matter of considerable importance- to< country people-, and we should give it serious consideration. Where it is possible to differentiate between the service rendered to city people and that rendered to country people, we should differentiate in favour of country people.

There is one other- matter which I wish to bring under the notice of honorable senators and the Government; and for which I ask their favorable consideration. I- refer to the correspondence of friendly societies. They have to send out very large numbers of circulars every quarter, and the war tax on their correspondence was a very severe handicap to them. When we come to consider the value of friendly societies to the nation we should make some special effort to give them special consideration.

Debate interrupted.

page 5138

QUESTION

SENATOR E. D. MILLEN

Visit to Europe

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– I think this is a favorable opportunity to submit . a request, not on my own behalf or on behalf of the Government, but, I feel sure I may say, on behalf of honorable senators generally, for the suspension of the sitting for an hour to enable honorable senators to pay one of the greatest compliments that has ever, been paid to a member of this- Chamber,, namely, to suspend public business1 for the purpose of wishing, bon voyage to one of their colleagues. I submit that request, to you, sir, as I believe the. unanimous wish of the Senate.

Honorable Senators. - Hear; hear!

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:
QUEENSLAND

– In accordance with what I understand to be the- unanimous- desire of honorable senators, that they should be afforded an opportunity of wishing bon voyage to their colleague,, the Minister for Repatriation (Senator Millen), who hasfor some time been Leader of the Senate; I propose to suspend the sitting for one. hour, and will resume the chair at 5 o’clock.

Sitting suspended from4 to 5 p.m.

page 5138

– They do not charge for those. They only charge for notices regarding arrears of subscriptions.

Senator EARLE:

– That is ‘only a penalty on members for neglecting to pay their contributions. The quarterly notices are for the most part formal, printed matter; but they contain a few written words in addition, and that fact compels the lodge to ‘.pay the ordinary postage, which is decidedly unfair, apart from the fact that the lodges ought to have special . consideration. The one object I have is to obtain special consideration for the friendly societies. I agree with Senator Thomas that tha Post and Telegraph Department ought not to be a revenue-collecting institution, and that whatever surplus is obtained should be expended, as I believe is the policy of the present Government, in giving better facilities, particularly to- the country -districts. I shall always be glad to see that policy put . into very practical operation. I hope that before the Bill reaches Committee honorable ‘senators will give consideration to the justice of. the amendment I have suggested, and; that I shall receive their whole-hearted support.

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

.- I have been looking into the Treasurer’s Budget statement with regard to the proposal to increase the postage rates to the people of Australia. The following paragraph reads extraordinarily as a justification of the proposed increase : -

The necessity for raising extra revenue suggests a review of the charges made for services rendered to the public, particularly by the Post Office Department, and new rates are proposed which have a better relation to the increased cost of supplying those services. Increased charges for these public utilities are general, and even world-wide. Railway, freights, for instance, have increased considerably, amounting to over 50 per cent, in some cases.

The comparison of the -operations of the various Railway Departments of Australia with those of the Commonwealth

Post and Telegraph Department is entirely misleading, because every State has found it absolutely essential during the past few years to increase freights and fares in order to meet the extra expenditure incurred by its Railway Department, but that is not the case with the Postal Department of the Commonwealth, which has been an exceptionally good paying proposition during the last couple of years. Consequently, the comparison made by the Treasurer is apt to be misleading, inasmuch as it conveys to the ordinary reader the impression that the Post and Telegraph Department has been run at a loss, because every one knows that the various Railway Departments have been compelled for their own preservation to increase fares and freights in order to make ends meet.

Senator Thomas gave some interesting figures as to the revenue of the Post Office during recent years. The total net profit on the postal, telegraphic, and telephonic services for the year 1918 reached the large amount of £387,382, while for the year 1919-20 it is estimated that £23S,000 profit will be made out of the Postal Department alone. Consequently, honorable senators are justified in dismissing altogether from their minds the idea that the proposed increases are essential in order that the Department may be made to pay.

Senator Drake-Brockman:

– And I think those figures do not include the extra halfpenny, which went direct to the Treasury as a war tax.

Senator PAYNE:

Senator PAYNE:

– Let us hope that material -will become cheaper. I do not want honorable senators to have the impression that I am denouncing the Bill. I am not doing that. I think, however, that I am justified in suggesting that, in view of the very heavy burden on the community as a whole, we should view this matter with a desire to make the tax as equitable as possible.

It has been suggested by one honorable senator that the Telephone and Telegraph Branches can well do with the extra revenue, and that the users will not mind the additional charges.; but Senator Thomas has protested strongly against any interference with the penny postage. When penny postage Avas introduced in Australia it was watched very closely indeed by those interested in the welfare of the Commonwealth, because it was looked upon as an innovation, and although it had been tried with success in the Mother Country, it was anticipated by a great many that it would not be so successful in a sparsely-populated country like Australia. We all know now that the predictions of failure were not justified, and that in the course of a few years it was demonstrated that penny postage was a commercial success.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Within two years of its introduction.

Senator PAYNE:

– It was a success within two or three years at all events. For this reason I am sorry the Treasurer has found it necessary to impose this additional tax upon the community. But ns I have always contended that the basis of good government is sound finance, it is absolutely imperative that money shall be obtained for carrying on the ~ functions of the Commonwealth Government. Until I can suggest some other means by which this additional revenue may be obtained, I would not be doing my duty to the electors of the Commonwealth who sent me here if I opposed the proposal to raise additional revenue for the needs of the Government. But

I regret very much that the Treasurer has not given any indication that, with this very large amount of additional revenue, expected from the increases in the rates, any special provision is to be. made to extend the postal, telegraphic, and telephonic facilities to those people upon whom we depend so largely for the development of our resources. I mean the out-back settlers.

Senator de Largie:

– That has been done as regards the telephone services. It has been made quite clear that the claims of the country are to be considered.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Yes, by charging more for telegrams.

Senator PAYNE:

Senator KEATING:

Senator KEATING:

– If an analysis were made of the letters that go from the city post-offices it would be found, in nearly every instance, that the revenue derived was obtained largely from commercial correspondence, and not from letters exchanged socially between individuals. There are thousands of that nature, of course, but the great bulk of letters go from the business houses of all kinds in the city. Nearly every business house takes into consideration its postal expenditure for the year, and regards. it as an item to be met, and adjusts its prices accordingly.

A newspaper is supplied to a city resident at a lower rate than it is supplied to a person in the country. One has merely to look at the newspapers to see the subscription rates on papers forwarded from the city to the country by post. There is an extra charge on papers forwarded to the country subscriber through the medium of the post-office. The newspaper proprietors do not bear that additional charge.

Senator Cox:

– The charge for a newspaper is the same in the country as it is in the city.

Senator KEATING:

– It is if it goes through the hands of an agent, but if it is sent through the post and addressed to an individual, the addressee has to pay the postage. The same applies in connexion with goods sold in the city to country purchasers. Any honorable senator who takes up a newspaper and peruses the commercial advertisements will find that business houses selling suits of clothes, boots, or other articles pf every day necessity, charge a certain rate; but there is another price if they are forwarded “ post free,” which means that the purchaser has to pay the postage. It is the people in the country who have to pay. Then, again, we find that if we peruse the rates set out in the schedule there is a specially low tariff for circulars. Do country people send out circulars? There is another specially low tariff for samples. Do country people send out samples? There is another specially low tariff for goods classified as merchandise. Do country people send out merchandise ? There is also a special tariff for mercantile papers. Is that likely to be of any advantage to country people? What is the result? If we averaged the number of postal articles that a business house in every capital city sends through the post every year it would be found that the cost per postal article would be less than1d. If we were to average what the commercial houses pay on circulars, samples, catalogues, merchandise, and mercantile papers we would find that the city house is practically getting1d. postage, and perhaps less than1d. On the other hand, the residents in the country who use the Post Office will be involved, in every instance, to the extent of a minimum charge of 2d. If a country resident purchases magazines or books from a city establishment he has to pav postage, and, generally speaking, the additional charge falls very heavily upon the people in the country. Twopenny postage for½ oz. thus falls primarily and mainly upon country residents, whereas the city business men do not have to pay, on an average, more than1d. per ounce on their total postage.

Senator Earle:

– But country business men would have the same advantage.

Senator KEATING:

– Of course, but they are not nearly so numerous. The country business man has to put up a very hard fight to keep his business in his own district, and the Government by this means are helping the big city houses to smother the country commercial man. I think honorable senators will see that, by imposing these extra rates, we are once again (giving an advantage to the city over the country, and not promoting that settlement in rural areas which I think all of us honestly and sincerely wish to see.

– That is the information with which I have been supplied. Our half an ounce is the lowest maximum in any country with, which a comparison can be reasonably made. I am led to refer to this ‘ matter because there are more individuals using the Post Office as a means of communication than there are who use the other facilities referred to in the Bill. Senator Earle said that no great hardship would be imposed upon an individual, using light paper, who wished to correspond from, say, Tasmania to Port Darwin, if the rate is fixed at 2d. per½. ounce. That may be so; but” it is a matter that is relative and needs comparison with other countries.

We have to recollect that nearly every individual at some time or other writes letters. There are, however, comparatively few who use the telegraphic and telephonic system, so we ought to be sensible of the fact that in disturbing the postal rates we touch almost every individual in the community. There are many who cannot afford to communicate by telegram or telephone, and we should be chary in taking away from them the illiberal enough rights and privileges which they now enjoy. Like Senator Thomas, I do not look upon the Post Office as a tax-collecting machine, but as an instrument of government for rendering a service to the community as a whole. The Department, of course, is justified in obtaining an adequate return for the services provided. If the Government take a more liberal view of the situation they could secure the additional revenue without imposing upon every ordinary letter-, writer a minimum charge of 2d.

Reference has been made to the telegraphic rates, and I agree with Senator Fairbairn that we have probably the lowest rates in the world. I do not. say that the charge for transmitting a telegram, say, from Melbourne to Geelong or to Ballarat is lower than the charge would be for a similar message for a similar distance in some other part of the world. But when we consider the distance that a telegram may have to travel, and the number of times that it may have to be repeated, we must recognise that our telegraphic charges are the lowest in the world. In this Bill, instead of charging1s. for Inter-State messages of sixteen words, and1d. for each additional word, it is proposed to make the charge1s. 3d. for sixteen words, with1d. for each additional word. Senator

– Yes. Then the cost of a lettergram and its minimum would be exactly half that of a telegram. It would be very much better for the (postal officials, for the public, and for those who are responsible for auditing the accounts of the Department.

I am sorry that, by reason of the suspension of the Standing Orders, we are not in a position to prepare and circulate proposed amendments.

Senator Fairbairn:

– Can we amend a money Bill?

Senator KEATING:

– We may request amendments in it.

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:

– This is a Bill which the Senate may amend.

Senator KEATING:

– In any case, one is not afforded an opportunity of circulating amendments which might commend themselves to honorable senators if the latter had them in print and had leisure to consider them.

I come now to the postage upon newspapers. In the print which has been circulated with the Bill, and which shows the amendments it is proposed to make in the present Act, I find the following: -

On all newspapers printed and published in Australia posted for delivery within the Commonwealth (without condition as to the number contained in each addressed wrapper) by-

The proprietors thereof to bona fide subscribers and to news vendors and agent3 for bona fide trade requirements ;

News vendors and agents to bond fide subscribers, and to other news vendors and agents for bonâ fide trade requirements; and

News vendors and agents for return to the publishing office.

One penny and a halfpenny per twenty ounces on the aggregate weight of newspapers posted by any one person at any one time.

That is an increase of½d. upon the original provision. But a proviso is added which, in my opinion, should be excised.

It reads-

Provided that the minimum amount of postage payable on the aggregate weight of newspapers so posted shall be one shilling.

– But we ought not to make concessions with one hand and take them away with the other. The small country town news vendor is very often obliged to send out four or five newspapers to a station, and upon these he will be required under this Bill to pay a minimum of ls. Why not give him the advantage of the l½d. charge for 20 oz. ? He will be well known to the local postal authorities - just as well known to them as are, say, Messrs. Gordon and Gotch in Melbourne.

I hope that when the Bill reaches Committee honorable senators will have particular regard to the requirements of residents outside of our cities. They are the people in this community to whom the post-office means the most. To them the daily mail - or it may even be the weekly, bi-weekly, or tri-weekly mail - is an event of very great importance. In our cities the ordinary delivery of letter§ is the most casual thing in the world. Very often we do not know whether it has taken place or not. We attach very little importance to it. But, in the rural parts of the Commonwealth, it is the event of the day or of the week or other period. We ought, therefore, to see that these people get the benefit of a reduction in our postal rates wherever that is possible. If Senator Thomas moves to reduce the postage upon letters to Id., I shall support him. I do not know whether the requirements of the revenue may not justify the retention for a time of the 1-Jd. rate. If so, I shall support any attempt which may be made to maintain the existing postal charge.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– I wish, very briefly, to support the views that have been expressed by Senators Thomas and Keating. The latter, I think, has very clearly proved that the proposed increase in our postal rates will penalize the settlers in the country - the very people whom we wish to encourage. Hitherto, the legislation which has been enacted in Australia has resulted in driving ‘people to our cities. This Bill represents still another pinprick to the outback settler. Let us contrast his position with that of the dweller in one of our cities. I hold in my hand a telegram which I have just received, and in which I am urged to support the modest request that the residents of a particular locality shall get their mail once a fortnight. A* the Pre” sent time they get it once a month. The telegram reads -

A largely signed petition from Territory residents sent to Federal Government praying for fortnightly mail service between Camooweal and Boorooloola. Can you use influence to assist us?

These poor unfortunate people outback, who are engaged in opening up the country, will be satisfied if they get their mail once a fortnight, whereas city dwellers have their newspapers thrown into their front gardens every morning and afternoon, and if they want the Midnight Sim, and choose to stay up for it, they may get that also. We should do everything in our power to make the lives of the people who live in the country as comfortable as possible. Theyshould get their newspapers and letters at as low a rate a6 possible. After all, country residents use the post-office far more than does any other section of the community. The circulars and letters which are sent out by city business firms are not addressed to people who live within the . metropolitan area. To communicate with these people, business firms use the telephone. But they send out their (circulars and Setters -to the producers in the country. Take, as an example, the firm with which I am associated.. I suppose that we receive 500 letters per day, and not 2 per ‘ cent, of them are of other than a business character.

Senator Russell:

– But the honorable senator’s firm is directly bound up with country interests.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– We do not wish to drive people into our cities.

Senator Keating:

– What percentage of those would be ordinary social letters?

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– There would not be 1 per cent, of them ordinary social letters. They are letters to people living in the country, giving them information about markets, to enable them to sell their products to the best advantage. The people living in towns have a theatre next door, and I notice that the Government propose to abolish the entertainments tax. They have theatres, a doctor in the next street, chemists, football matches, races, and ice. In towns one has only to turn a tap and water will run out of it. In my election campaign in this little State of Victoria I found a woman in the Mallee trying to rear a family in a hut made of old -bags. I asked her how far it was to the nearest doctor, and she said that she had never seen a doctor. It was 50 miles from her place to the nearest doctor or chemist, and her children never saw fresh meat, fresh fruit, or milk. We want people to settle and develop the back country, and we should remember that the settlers on the land are producing 76 per cent, of the total wealth produced by the Commonwealth.

Senator Russell:

– As they are doing such useful work they should be subsidized. They will not thank us for the reduction of merely a penny in the postage they are asked to pay on a letter.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– The Minister overlooks the fact that by reducing the postage rate they may be encouraged to take more newspapers. They are the people who should be supplied with news at reasonable rates, and not the people of the cities, who have all the comforts to which I have referred at less cost, including the remission of the taxation on picture show tickets. “We should do all that we possibly can to encourage the people who are developing the country districts, and we should especially endeavour to supply them with better and cheaper mail, telephone, and telegraphic services.

I notice that in this Bill it is proposed that persons living 15 miles from a city, people who have telephones, and who can get on a tram or an electric train, and may enjoy all the advantages and conveniences to which I have referred, are to be charged only 9d. for a telegram, whilst people living further out, who are the backbone of the country, are to be charged ls. It may, perhaps, not be very much advantage to people to be able to send a telegram, judging from an experience I had on Tuesday last. I sent’ a telegram from Mortlake to Geelong. It was lodged at 12.40, and though I was not flying, but motoring, I reached Geelong half-an-hour before my telegram. That is a statement of fact, but I do not desire to make disparaging remarks about the telegraphic service generally.

Senator Earle:

– That is an exception; the rule is generally pretty good.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– I support Senators Thomas and Seating in asking the Government to make the postage rate on ordinary letters1½d. instead of 2d. I do so because I think we should do all that we can to make the lives of settlers on the land more comfortable and attractive than they are at present, and because in this State of Victoria we have the horrible anomaly that 52 per cent, of its population resides in Melbourne. I do not see why people living over 15 miles from the city should be penalized by being charged more for sending a telegram than people living inside that distance. It does not cost any more to send a message along 16 or 17 miles of wire than to send it along 14 miles.

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

– I am supporting the increased rates proposed by this Bill, for the very reasons which have been given by Senators J. F. Guthrie, Keating, and others for their opposition to them. I should not readily support an increase in the postage rate if I thought for a moment that these increases in postal, telephone, and telegraph rates would not benefit the residents of country districts, whom we are all so anxious to help. Honorable senators should not confine their attention to the postage rate and ignore the telephone and telegraph rates. We would be very foolish to go back to the1d. rate on letters, but whether the rate should be increased to 2d. is another matter. I made some investigation of postal rates as a member of a Royal Commission, that presented a very comprehensive report on the PostmasterGeneral’s Department. At the time of the inquiry by that Commission, and as the result of evidence I heard throughout the Commonwealth, I was against any reduction of the postage to 1d., because I recognised, and I think rightly, that any reduction of the revenue from the Postal Department involved a curtailment of the facilities which it could extend to people living in country districts. It is a simple matter to make a success of penny postage within the limited area of a city. When people live close to each other, and letters have to be carried but short distances, mail matter can be handled much more cheaply than it can in more sparsely populated areas. To institute a comparison in this matter between the Commonwealth and a small country like Great Britain or any other densely populated country, is to ignore one of the most important factors which govern the whole business. If I were a postal dictator, I would undertake to run the Postal Department of Great Britain on a penny postage before I would undertake to run the postal business of the Commonwealth on a twopenny postage, because of the enormous distances which mails have to be carried in this country as compared with the Old Country. Honorable senators know that such enterprises as Cobb and Company for the carriage of mails are practically unknown in the Old Country. In the Commonwealth we have to continue that expensive means of carrying mail matter.

I recognise that Senator J. F. Guthrie and other honorable senators who have spoken on this Bill are very anxious to help the . people living in the country districts, but in my opinion they make a grievous mistake . when they propose to take a course of action which must result in the curtailment of revenue from the Postal Department. How can they expect, with a reduced revenue from the Department, that it will be in a position to increase the postal, telephonic, and telegraphic facilities given to country people ? I do not often get the opportunity to visit Western Australia, but when I am there I put in very little time in Perth or the other cities. I live most of my time there in the country, and from my experience of country people I am sure that they would gladly pay increased rates if they could secure the facilities they desire. If there is one public service more than another in connexion with which it may be said that we starve the people, it is the telephone service. There are few countries in the world in which the telephone is so little used as in Australia. We are an up-to-date people in many things, but in the extended use of the telephone we are a very backward people. In the country districts I know of nothing that is so much appreciated in a home as the telephone. If the woman of the house is able to ring up a neighbour on. the telephone and exchange conversation with her, honorable senators will agree that that must have a wonderful effect in making her more satisfied with her comparatively isolated condition of life. The extension of telephonic facilities to country districts must tend greatly to satisfy the social craving of people in those districts, and we could not do better in their interests than to assist in securing for them telephone facilities. This Bill puts it within our power to minimize the loneliness of life in the bush by putting a telephone into the home of every resident of the country.

Our telephone system is, perhaps, one of the cheapest in the world.

Senator Duncan:

– And the worst.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– No, it is not.

Senator Duncan:

– I was referring to Sydney. It is pretty good here, but it is awful in Sydney.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– Complaints about telephone systems are heard in every country in the world. They are not perfect anywhere, but I believe that our telephone system is as good as that of most countries. We cannot look forward with any hope of securing better postal, telephonic, and telegraphic facilities for the. country unless . we derive an adequate revenue from the operations of this -Department. I know that on several occasions the Department has been asked to extend the telephone system to the place where I live when in Western Australia, but the answer has always been that they have not the revenue to enable them to do so. The people of the district are compelled to make use of the railway telephone, which belongs to the State, and is but a poor substitute for a Commonwealth system. The railway officials do their own business over their telephone lines, and the local residents must take advantage of opportunities when the telephone is not in use by railway officials, and at unusual hours, and on Sundays all telephonic communication is hung up. If women are suddenly taken ill doctors cannot be communicated with. Men engaged in the bush in dangerous callings, such as clearing, are often the victims of accidents, and it is impossible to readily summon assistance for them. lt is because of the lack of revenue that we have not our own telephone service established in these places, and we cannot expect to have them established unless more revenue is derived from the Department. I hope in the circumstances that honorable senators will not support any proposal in the nature of cheeseparing, but that they will agree to the proposed increased rates, in order to enable country services to be established wherever possible.

Senator Keating has quoted some figures with respect to postal rates which must be very old. I think the honorable senator will find that in the United Kingdom there has been an increase in the rates he quoted. The PostmasterGeneral would scarcely quote figures in this connexion about which he was not sure. So far as I know the figures which the Minister quoted are correct, and he has referred to the fact that there has been an increase in the postage rates of the United Kingdom from1½d. to 2d.

The rate in South Africa has been increased from Id. to l£d., and in New Zealand from 1½d. to 2d., although New Zealand, is a smaller country than ours by far. Our telephone rates are ridiculously small compared with those of other countries. Honorable senators will find that country people are quite prepared to pay as much for their telephones as the people of other countries do, provided that they are given the facilities. They do not want telephones at j£4 and £5 a year. They are prepared to pay double that amount if we will actually give them a telephone service. We have a very cheap rate for the carriage of newspapers, I suppose the cheapest in the world. Therefore, taking the whole of our charges in connexion with the Department, our rates compare more than favorably with those of most other countries. I do not agree with Senator Thomas that this is a new method of taxation. I look on it as a fair charge for services rendered to the community. Whilst we cannot in every instance insist that every service shall pay just whatever it costs, if we so manage that the Department as a whole pays its way as nearly as possible, I think we shall be going on safe and proper lines. There are many services that we cannot expect to pay. For instance, in some places outback it costs 2s. 6d., and sometimes as much as 3s. or 4s. to carry a letter. We can, however, make the Department as a whole pay, and that is the proper system which we should strive to establish. To call these increases in rates “ more taxation “ is to use language very loosely. In a small State like Victoria, which had Id. postage before Federation, it may be possible to make it pay, or approximately pay.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– New South Wales is not’ a small State.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– It is not, but it is much more thickly populated than any of the others, with the exception of Victoria. It may be possible to make Id. postage pay in Victoria, but I am sure it could not be made to pay in Western Australia, Queensland or South Australia, which have enormous areas. It is not possible to make a comparison between the cost of running the Department in States like those, and in a State like Victoria. We must do something to assist the Department to get out of the condition that it has been in for so long. We hear constant complaints, and never seem to get satisfaction from it. The primary reason is that there is not sufficient revenue coming, in to work the Department as it should be worked. Let us endeavour to get sufficient revenue, and when that revenue is secured we can insist on services such as we have never been able to have in the past. We know that the price of everything has gone up. We cannot expect rates ever to get back to the modest figures of the past. Not only wire, but every kind of material used in the Department - and it uses many different kinds - have undoubtedly increased considerably in price, and the average wage in the Postal Department has gone up nearly £60 per annum. That being so, there is only one thing for us to do, and that is to increase the rates. When they are increased we can surely expect a much better service than we have had in the past. If we cannot get it then, the fault must be looked for in the management of the Department. It will not be possible for a Postmaster-General to say then, as Postmaster-Generals have invariably said in the past, “ I am sorry I cannot comply with your request. I recognise the claim you have for a telephone service or a better postal service, but the funds of the Department are in such a state that I cannot recommend it.” It is time we tried to get enough money into the Department to ‘ make it pay, and to give those facilities which we have all acknowledged should be given. Unless we agree to a proposition of this kind when it is before us we sb.all be only beating the air when we ask later on for greater facilities, because we shall have refused to provide the money necessary to carry them out.

Senator PRATTEN (New South Wales) T6.22]. - I should not have intervened in the debate except for the purpose of putting one or two new points of view.

Senator Thomas, Senator Keating, and I think Senator Payne, pleaded for the retention of the postal rate on letters at the present figure of 1½d.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I said Id.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Then I will take the plea of Senator Keating, the effect of which would be to reduce the anticipated revenue during the present financial year by some hundreds of thousands of pounds. The amount of money allocated from revenue, and required for the increased salaries and services of the Department this year in all its branches, is close upon £1,500,000. Many appeals have been made in this Chamber to put the services of the Department in a state of reasonable business efficiency. ‘During the war years a continuing pressure wa3 imposed upon the ex-Postmaster-General (Mr.- Webster) to pare down his estimates and expenses until they were actually cut to the bone. I believe that during the last year of his postal administration Mr. Webster showed a business profit from the Post and Telegraph Department of about £500,000. That was calmly appropriated by the Treasurer of the day, and went to pay for something else. It was probably allocated towards war services.

Senator de Largie:

– Was it not appropriated to make up for many of the deficits that the Department had shown in past years?

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It is likely that the late Treasurer (Mr. Watt) thought that if he appropriated the £500,000 profit made by the Department then administered by Mr. William Webster, he would be able to show £500,000 more towards the cost of the war, and, consequently, make a better Budget, and, perhaps, dodge further taxation to that extent. What happened? The whole of the services were cut to the bone. Economies were made here, and cuts were made there, until the services almost reached the point of confusion. Certainly the officers were unable to carry on .the services efficiently, partly because many of the expert officials went to the war, and partly because of the shortage of money. The Department during the last two or three years in almost all its branches has been a by-word to the community. The public have lost their old feeling of certainty of letter deliveries or ordinary telegraphic deliveries. They have given up hope. Speaking from the standpoint of my own State, the Sydney telephone services have arrived almost at a state of chaos owing to the shortage of money to buy material when it could have been bought.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Like every other member of this Parliament, I received a pamphlet from Mr. Webster stating that when he went around Australia he found that people complained very little. _ Senator PRATTEN. - When the officials themselves apologize for the state of the Sydney telephone service, we know that there is a great deal wrong. Some of my personal experiences in connexion with telegrams and letters through the post-office in this Parliament are among the worst I have come across in my ‘business experience.

In. this debate appeals have been made to the Government to reduce the revenue of the country during the current financial year by some hundreds of thousands of pounds. It is a little late in the day to do that. The time to do it was when the -Bills came before the Senate, by which we incurred statutory obligations for the expenditure of money. Only a month or two ago the Senate, in spite of the protests of some of us, passed a vote for £500,000 for the purpose of helping soldiers to form co-operative societies in the country. One honorable senator appeals for increased allowances to old-age pensioners, another for an increase of the maternity bonus and a third for an extra payment to the blind.” All these things, if indorsed by Parliament, make n sum total of statutory obligations that we have to meet by additional revenue. I have spent some time in analyzing what the Budget means. So far as I can make out, our statutory obligations, including £90,000 to Tasmania, the .per capita grant to the States, the cost of running the Po3t and Telegraph Department, including the £1,500,000 increase over the cost last year, old-age pensions, interest, Northern Territory Redemption Fund. and many other items, commit us to an expenditure of £91,665,000. To meet this we have total receipts, from taxation and loans, of £98,S64,000.

Sitting suspended from 6.S0 to S p.m.*

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– At the dinner adjournment I was pointing out that the statutory obligations that have been specifically passed by this Senate in connexion with our national finance were within £7,000,000 of the total estimated expenditure from both revenue and war loans. The Post Office, I think, has been very liberally dealt with by the Government in the Estimates that will reach us from another place in due course. I think that yesterday we passed a sum of about £900,000 on account of the ensuing financial year. As compared with last year, this is nearly six times the amount for the particular items specified. It must not be forgotten, either, that wages have been considerably increased, and that the cost of administration of the Post Office is, 4 so far as I can gather by a cursory glance at the figures that have been presented to us, £600,000 more this year than ever before. According to the Estimates, the 2d. postage rate will “bring in £750,000 extra, and the difference between this sum and the £1,000,000 extra which it is expected the Post Office receipts will aggregate is made up by additional charges for telegrams and telephones. The financial position of a Government is not exactly the same as that of an ordinary trading institution. We have to make our income equal our expenditure, but an ordinary trading concern fits its expenditure to its income, or, in other word6, cuts its coat according to its cloth. I do not want to repeat myself, but I wish to emphasize the fact that time and time again objections have been made by the economists in this chamber to what is sometimes regarded as extravagant expenditure, yet, in spite of this, we have passed Bill after Bill imposing additional expenditure on the Government, and now “ the chickens are coming home to roost.” We have to get the money. The question is, how best to get it. I see that the entertaining Melbourne press have coined a phrase indicating that this financial statement of the Treasurer is a “ knock-out Budget.” It certainly is, so far as the entertainments tax is concerned, and I do not altogether agree with its policy in that respect. I would be quite prepared to support the weighty arguments that have been adduced in this chamber in favour of keeping tEe postage at its present rates, if there were any reasonable expectation of raising money in some other direction. I had in mind even a proposal to knock out the proposed remission of the entertainments tax, in order to keep the postage rates on letters where it is, but I am in this difficulty : The rejection of the Bill to remit portion of the entertainments tax would only give us about £250,000 per year, and I am a bit doubtful as to the constitutional position of the Senate. We cannot impose taxation, and the rejection by the Senate of the Bill to which I refer would, in effect, be increasing taxation.

Senator Keating:

– We cannot amend any proposed law so as to increase any burden or charge upon the people.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– No ; but the Entertainments Tax Bill is for the purpose of reducing taxation, and I am not sure whether, constitutionally, we can deal with it at all.

But to come back to the point, I believe that if the rejection, of that measure would give us additional revenue aggregating anything like the loss of anticipated revenue from the reduction of the present postage rates, the temper of the Senate would be to keep the postage rates at its present level and make the people who go to picture shows pay.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Then you are dealing with postage as a taxation measure, and you are making the Post Office a tax collector.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am in this difficulty : The statutory obligations of this Parliament so far amount to £91,000,000, and the total revenueloans and all- will be only £98,000,000. By keeping postage at its present rates we are going to lose, according to the Budget Estimates, approximately £750,000, and as one of the representatives of New South’ Wales I am not going to risk further inefficiency in the Post Office. We have had quite enough of that already. The war is over. It is nearly two years since the armistice was signed. The skilled employees of the Department are, I hope, back at their jobs; and. if we give the Postmaster-General sufficient money to carry on we have a right to expect efficiency in the Department. If we do not get it we can then properly blame those who are responsible.

Senator de Largie:

– Give them enough money to carry on in the first instance, then.

Senator Senior:

– Did the honorable senator say that the Budget gives the Post Office £600,000 more than last year?

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– No ; I said that it gives a sum total, so far as I can gather, of £900,000 more to carry on with, but that it will also cost about £600,000 more for administration, so that the total increase, apart from capital cost, will be in the region of £1,500,000!

There is another phase to this question, and that is its inter-Imperial uniform postage aspect. The British Government recently imposed twopenny postage for the United Kingdom, and by imposing a similar postage rate in Australia we shall come into line with the British and New Zealand Governments - with the 2d. interImperial rate and a 2½d. rate for outside countries.

Senator Keating:

– That is not the. New Zealand rate. -

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I understand the New Zealand Government are raising their rates.

Senator Keating:

-They are raising it ½d. for 4 ounces - not as in Australia, to 2d. per½oz. letter.

– Do the twelve words include the address of the sender 1

Senator RUSSELL:

– That is a mere detail, but I think that they do. In New Zealand the rates have been increased from” 8d. for twelve words and A. for each additional word, to ls. for twelve words and Id. for each additional word, an increase of 50 per cent, on the initial charge, and 100 per cent, on the secondary rate. It is estimated that the new rates on ordinary telegrams win bring in about 25 per cent, increase in revenue, and a proportionate increase in the rates for press messages is also proposed.

– Not altogether. I believe that the staff of the Postal Department has done the very best that was possible with the money which was at its command. I have heard complaints which, when investigated, showed that it was impossible for the officers of that Department to take the necessary action because of .the lack of necessary materials.

No provision has been made in our Loan Act for the Post Office, and consequently we shall require to borrow £4,500,000 for the ordinary works of that DepartmentThe Post Office occupies an entirely different position from that which is occupied by a naval depot or an ammunition works for defence purposes, because it is, to some extent, a commercial concern. Although the Government have not at- tempted to extort, through the medium of the Post Office, the last penny from the community, it was never intended that the Department should be a charitable institution. The various services connected with it ought not to be run for profit, but they ought not to be maintained at a loss. They should be made to pay.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The Vice-President of the Executive Council is upon our side.

Senator RUSSELL:

– I am not. No provision has been made anywhere, save in this Bill, for the raising of money for the extension of postal facilities. Of course, we ought not to borrow for works which are of a temporary character. We are, however, justified in borrowing for works of a permanent character. Senator Pratten (pointed out, and I agree with him, that it would have been better for this country had we imposed more taxation to provide for our war expenditure.

We cannot develop Australia unless we nave the requisitemoney with which to do it, and if this Bill does not provide the revenue which we require for extended postal facilities, no other provision has been made to obtain it.

Senator Payne:

– Has not provision been made for a considerable extension of postal facilities to out-back settlers this year?

Senator RUSSELL:

– As far as possible that has been done.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– If the Government secure the adoption of twopenny postage, will they give the country districts better mail and telephonic services ?

Senator RUSSELL:

– Yes, that is our intention. Of course, no matter what money may be available for the purpose, we cannot carry out that particular job expeditiously, because all material needs to be ordered twelve months ahead.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Was not the original trouble lack of money when the material was available?

Senator Cox:

– The material was never available, nomatter what money the Government may have had. .

Senator RUSSELL:

– The facts are familiar to honorable senators. The Government attempted to battle along during the war period as best they could, leaving the Post Office in its present inefficient state. We now desire to bring it up to date. The telephone service in Melbourne is so backward that I unsuccessfully endeavoured, upon eight or nine occasions to-day, to get into communication with the Central Wheat Board. I wasted an hour and a half in my efforts.

SenatorKeating. - Experience should have taught the honorable gentleman that it would have been quicker to walk down to the office of the Wheat Board.

Senator RUSSELL:

– Unfortunately, the Senate would not adjourn in order to permit me to do so. Wherever one goes he finds that the telephone service is in a bad condition owing to the lack of requisite material. We have endeavoured to avoid the imposition of additional taxation as far as possible; but to keep back the development of the country by withholding adequate postal facilities would be a suicidal policy. For other works, which are equally important, we shall need to borrow £5,000,000 next year, not because we desire to rush works ahead, but because we are behind in most of these, undertakings. Upon one job, which was started before the war, we are losing money very heavily, simply because it has not been completed.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– The Government should not have scrapped the entertainments tax.

Senator RUSSELL:

– It has not been scrapped altogether. If we imagine that we can reform the world by collecting £24.0,000 annually from the women and children who attend our picture shows, God help us! Surely this Parliament has a bigger soul than that. The proposition with which I am now dealing is a much, larger one, because a quick, reliable and efficient postal service is absolutely necessary for Australia during the period, of post-war reconstruction. I ask honorable senators to agree to the second reading of the measure, and to afford the Government an opportunity to make the Post Office self-supporting.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 -

Part I. of the First Schedule to the principal Act is omitted, and the following Part inserted in its stead: - “ Part I. - Newspapers.

On all newspapers, printed and published in Australia, posted for delivery within the Commonwealth (without condition as to the number contained in each addressed wrapper)

One penny and a halfpenny per twenty ounces on the aggregate weight of newspapers posted by any one person at any one time: Provided that the minimum amount of postage payable on the aggregate weight of newspapers so posted shall be One shilling.

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

Senator Keating:

– No justification of that sort has ever been put forward for this proviso.

Senator RUSSELL:

Senator SENIOR:

– As the proviso is worded it appears to mean that in this secondary distribution the newspapers would have to pay the minimum charge of ls., as they would not come within the provisions of the TBill.

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– If there is any doubt about the interpretation of the clause I will give it further consideration. There seems to’ be some confusion about the everyday practice of the Postal Department in regard to the bulk handling of newspapers, and in order to satisfy honorable senators I should like to withdraw the clause temporarily. I am against the introduction of any pin-pricks in legislation.

Clause postponed.

Clause 6 -

Part II. of the First Schedule to the Principal Act is repealed, and the following part inserted in its stead : -

Senator Cox:

– Could they not typewrite the necessary particulars into the notice ?

Senator PAYNE:

– No; they must be printed in order to get the concession. It is impossible to print those details.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– If preferential treatment is to be given to any section of the community, the section that should get it is the Re-* turned Sailors and Soldiers Association, which has a membership of over 200,000, whose dependants would bring the number affected up to at least 500,000. The society has to -send circulars to its members. I object to the amendment because it introduces a dangerous precedent, and we do’ not know where it will stop. If we give preference to one society, . any number of others are equally entitled to the same consideration.

Question - That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted (Senator Earle’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 3

NOES: 15

Majority … … 12

AYES

NOES

Question so- resolved in the negative.

– I have in my hand a communication received yesterday, which bears a 2d. stamp.

Senator KEATING:

– An . extra charge may have . been recently imposed on overseas postage, and I mentioned that when previously speaking. The information I used was the latest available in Australia for those who were searching; but the Minister’s interjection does not get over the difficulty that the maximum weight in Great Britain is much higher than it is here. In Great Britain they carry eight times our maximum weight.

Senator de Largie:

– Does the honorable senator know that the weight to which he refers is correct?

Senator KEATING:

– I know it was, and assume it is. I have since looked up the New Zealand rates, and I find that a 4-oz. letter, which was carried inland ordinarily for1d., is now carried at that . rate plus½d. war charge. Seven letters that would go through the Post Office in Australia, and be charged lid. each, could be placed in the one envelope and sent for lid. in New Zealand.

Senator Givens:

– The last letter I received from New Zealand did not weigh 2 ozs., and had a 4d. stamp on it.

Senator KEATING:

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Bakhap:
TASMANIA

– The honorable senator must not discuss the telephone services.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– My remarks are related each to the other, because I am arguing as to the effect of finance upon the question whether the postal rates shall be raised or not. I will not call it humbug, but it is somewhat insincere for the Government to say, in effect, “ We are going to extract more money from the postal services and make a profit indirectly for’ the purpose of running picture shows free of tax.” I will not stand for that. The sum of . about £270,000 is to be remitted in respect of the entertainments tax. I remember the struggle which occurred in the Senate over the imposition of id. tax on kiddies’ 3d. tickets. I shall be no party to the unnecessary imposition of higher postage rates, in the light of the figures which I have quoted, and which I invite the Minister to controvert. I shall be no party to the increased postal rates and the wasting of £270,000 by partial remissions in connexion with the entertainments tax.

Question - That the figure “ 2 “ proposed to be left out, be left out (Senator Thomas’ amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 7

NOES: 11

Majority . . . . 4

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8-

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

– I now invite the Minister to consider the suggestion I made on the second reading to make the price of Inter-State telegrams, in effect,1d. per word. The proposed rate is1s. 3d. for not exceeding sixteen words. Why not make it1s.4d., or make the rate1d. a word, with a minimum of1s., or1d. a word with a minimum of1s. 3d. ? It will then be in harmony with the later provision that lettergrams should be charged½d. per word with a minimum of thirty words, or a minimum charge of1s. 3d. My suggestion will make it very much easier for the sender of the telegram, the clerk, the accountant, and the auditor. A man sending sixty words will know that he must pay 5s., or if sending fifty words, , 4s. 2d., while under the clause as it stands, he will have to pay1s. l1d. for twenty-four words, or 2s. l1d. for thirty-six words. If anything, the alteration will mean an increase of revenue. The Inter-State telegram rate will be exactly double the lettergram rate.

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– I do not regard this matter as of very much importance. It is, after all, only a detail, but the Committee has just taken a division in an effort to reduce the charges, and now a proposal is put forward to increase them, even if only slightly. If the Government feels that the problem of the Post Office is so big that it will want more revenue in the immediate future, and if the Committee is inclined to offer the Government an increased rate, I am modest enough to accept the offer. Is it the wish of honorable senators generally that the alteration suggested by Senator Keating should be made?

Honorable Senators. - Hear, hear!

Senator RUSSELL:

– Then I accept the suggestion.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Senator Keating’s suggestion will improve the clause, but what objection is there to making the charge1s. all round ?

Senator Russell:

– I have made a fair compromise, and every honorable senator said, “ Hear, hear ! “

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I simply asked if it would not be better to have a1s. rate all round, instead of 9d. in some cases, and1s. in others. The clause penalizes the man in the country. He. is charged 1s. 3d., while the man in the city who has all the other advantages is charged only 9d. He is given a telephone, and can send a telegram for 9d., whereas in many places in the country, telephones cannot be given, and yet1s. 3d. is charged for telegrams.

Senator Keating:

– My proposal referred only to the Inter-State rate.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The charge should be1s. all round, without any differentiation.

Senator Russell:

– I tried to meet the wishes of the Committee, and the

Committee accepted my offer. I shall go no further.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– I would press the Minister on this point. The Government always profess anxiety to encourage the people in the country, yet in this case they are penalizing any one who lives more than 15 miles out of the city. Surely the Minister can make the same charge to those living within the 15-mile radius as to those living outside it?

Senator Russell:

– The charge will only be 9d. in country districts between places that are not more than 15 miles apart.

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– A person living 20 miles out of Melbourne will have to pay 25 per cent. more than a person living a few miles nearer the city, who is within the 15-mile radius, if he wishes to telegraph for a doctor. If we are to give encouragement to people to go into the country, we must provide them with cheaper telephonic and telegraphic services. I trust that the Government will not pursue a policy of giving preferential treatment to people who live in the capita] cities.

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of lite Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– It is a sound principle to charge more for country telegraphic services. Certainly, it. would not be a sound policy to adopt a uniform rate when we have such long telegraph lines to maintain in districts where population is sparse. It is certain that the Department could not build telegraph lines 100 miles long to serve a few persons, and expect the whole of the capital cost to be carried by an increase in the rates paid by other people. Long country telegraph lines cost not only more for upkeep, but also for original capital expenditure.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It costs more to carry a letter in the country districts.

Senator RUSSELL:

– But there are porterage charges on letters. If honorable senators want to establish a flat telegraphic rate, let them take the proper course to do it. I am not altogether in favour of conducting the Post Office on the most approved lines of private enterprise, and although no one is more anxi ous than I am to give wider scope to the control of the Department by other than politicians, my idea is that it should neither make a profit nor provide special concessions to any section of the community - that it should not” be run with a benefit to the Treasury, but with magnificent benefit to the country generally.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I wish to draw attention to the excessive use Of official telegrams between State and State and capital and capital. I do not know whether the Post Office is paid for these messages, but I assume that each Department bears the cost of the telegrams it despatches, and which my experience goes to show are all sent as urgent. During the war there may have been some excuse for officers in Melbourne to despatch long telegrams, although very often they could just as easily have been put in letter form ; but the result of their action was that year after year the regular and reasonable delivery of ordinary telegrams lodged by business people was considerably interfered with. As a matter of fact, at present, any business man who wishes to be reasonably assured that a telegram he despatches from one capital to another -will reach his client in decent time, has to pay double rates and send it as urgent. The necessity for this arises very largely from the overloading of the lines by official telegrams that could just as well be typed and sent as letters; and I think some regulation should be laid down by which officials may be prevented from adopting the easiest course, namely, that of sending telegrams, which block other messages, instead of letters which could be typed out and despatched iu the ordinary way. lt would give great relief tu the ordinary users of the lines, and to the Post Office itself, if this were done. The delays occasioned during the war through the crude habits of officials who did not know anything about business were certainly horrible.

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

– Do I understand that the Minister agrees to my suggestion to increase the charge for Inter-State telegrams to ls. 4d. for not exceeding sixteen words?

Senator Russell:

– I am prepared to accept an amendment in that direction.

Senator KEATING:

– I move-

That in the third column the word “ threepence “ be left out and the word “ fourpence “ inserted in lieu thereof.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to. -

Clause 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (Letter telegrams and shipping telegrams).

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I would not have been surprised if the Government had omitted all provision for letter telegrams, which I think must be despatched at a considerable loss to the Department. I should like to know whether they pay.I know that when the system was first introduced by the then Postmaster-General (Mr. Agar Wynne), I thought he was taking a foolish step, but since then the concession has been somewhat modified by preventing the lodging of any letter telegram until 7 p.m., and now it is proposed to confine these messages to social matters.

Senator Russell:

– I understand that, hitherto, these letter telegrams have not paid’ the Department, but that it is anticipated that with the alteration now proposed they will pay.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– They may be a convenience, but they are a concession which the . public have no right to expect.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

.- I should like to know if a Bill is to be brought in to deal with the proposed increase in’ telephone rates or whether the ‘Postmaster-General has statutory power to increase the rates.

Senator Keating:

– That may he done by regulation.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Then no discussion is permissible on telephonic rates?

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Bakhap:

– Certainly not. Telephonic communication is not mentioned in the clause, and, therefore, it may not be discussed.

Senator PRATTEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I only want to point out that telephone rates have been doubled during the last five or six years, and I hope the Postmaster-General (Mr. Wise) will treat us mercifully.

Clause agreed to.

Postponed clause 5 -

Part I. of the First Schedule to the Principal Act is omitted, and the following Part inserted in its stead : - “Part I. - Newspapers.

On all newspapers, printed and published m Australia, posted for delivery within the Commonwealth (without condition as tothe number contained in each addressed wrapper)

One penny and a. halfpenny per twenty ounces on the aggregate weight of newspapers posted by any one person at any one time: Provided that the minimum amount of postage payable on the aggregate weight of newspapers soposted shall be One shilling.”

SenatorRUSSELL (Victoria - VicePresident of the Executive Council) [11.14]. - When this clause was withdrawn temporarily, I promised to give consideration to the point raised by Senator Keating, and I do not feel inclined to fight any more about it. I am prepared to accept his suggestion, and I move -

That the words “ Provided that the minimum amount of postage payable on the aggregate weight of newspapers so posted shall be one shilling.” be left out. .

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

Senate adjourned at 11.15 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 30 September 1920, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1920/19200930_senate_8_93/>.

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Senate30 September 1920

QUESTION

PENSIONS FOR THE BLIND

Senator EARLE:TASMANIA

Senator RUSSELL:Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

PAPER

QUESTION

SUGAR

Senator SENIOR:SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator RUSSELL:NAT

QUESTION

BANKRUPTCY LAW

Senator KEATING:TASMANIA

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION

Senator DE LARGIE:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator RUSSELL:NAT

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL

Second Reading

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Earle:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Wilson:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Wilson:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Wilson:

Senator Wilson:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Keating:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Earle:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Keating:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator Russell:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:Tasmania

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:

Senator Russell:

Senator EARLE:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:

QUESTION

SENATOR E. D. MILLEN

Senator RUSSELL:VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:QUEENSLAND

POST AND TELEGRAPH RATES BILL

Second Reading

Senator EARLE:

Senate
30 September 1920

Senator EARLE:
TASMANIA

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

Senator SENIOR:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

Senator KEATING:
TASMANIA

Senator DE LARGIE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator EARLE:
Tasmania

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator RUSSELL:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens:
QUEENSLAND

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator J F GUTHRIE:
VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931