Senate
5 October 1910

4^th Parliament · 1^st Session

PETITION
QUESTION
- TUESDAY SITTING
PAPERS
APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL
DEATH OF KING EDWARD VII. AND ACCESSION OF KING GEORGE V
- Sir,
QUESTION
- UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA
NAVAL APPROPRIATION BILL
TRUST FUND ADVANCES BILL
SUPPLY BILL (No. 3)
ADJOURNMENT
- Order of Business - Navigation Bill

The President took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 4065

PETITION

Senator VARDON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– presented a petition from thirty three taxpayers in the State of South Australia, praying the Senate to reject the Land Tax Assessment Bill.

Petition received.

page 4065

QUESTION

TUESDAY SITTING

Senator WALKER:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council whether, in view of the fact that a large programme has been announced for the remainder of the session, there is any intention to forego Tuesday as a day of sitting?

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Certainly not.. It was only under special circumstances that the Senate did not meet yesterday.

page 4065

PAPERS

MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers -

Defence. - Memorandum by the Chief of the General Staff and of the Commonwealth Section of the Imperial General Staff (dated 8th July, 1910).

Defence. - Commonwealth oj Australia Gazette No. 60, of 28th September, 1910, containing Proclamation, with Map attached, exempting from the training mentioned in Fart XII. of theDefence Act 1903-1909 all persons residing in those parts of Australia indicated in the Map.

Defence Acts 1903-1904. - Regulations for the Military Forces of the Commonwealth. - Cancellation of Regulation 3, and substitution of new Regulations 3 and3a (Provisional)in lieu thereof. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 89.

Public Service Act 1902. - Repeal of Regulation 220, and substitution of new Regulation in lieu thereof. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 90.

Post and Telegraph Act 1901 -

Amendment (Provisional) of the Postal Regulations. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 80.

Amendment of Telegraphic Regulations. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 83.

Papua. - Report by the Hon. Staniforth Smith, Administrator, on the progress of the Territory, dated 14th September, 1910.

Ordinances of 1910 - .

No. 11. - Supplementary Appropriation 1909-10, No. 6.

No. 12. - Appropriation 1910-1911.

Report by the Director of Fisheries on work of F.I.S. Endeavour in Southern Queensland and Northern New South Wales waters, for period 30th August to 13th September, 1910.

Report of the Royal Commission on Postal Services.

The Acting Clerk laid on the table -

Return to Order of the Senate of 30th September, 1910 -

Postal Service, Queensland : Officers in General Division not receiving Increases of Salary.

page 4066

APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL

Assent reported.

page 4066

DEATH OF KING EDWARD VII. AND ACCESSION OF KING GEORGE V

The PRESIDENT reported the receipt of the following communication: -

Commonwealth of Australia,

Governor-General’s Office,

Melbourne, 27th September, 1910.

Sir,

I have the honour to transmit herewith for the information of senators, a copy of a despatch which I have received from the Right Honorable the Secretary of State for the Colonies, acknowledging the receipt of the resolution agreed to by the Senate, in reference to the death of His late Majesty King Edward VII.

I have the honour to be,

Sir,

Your obedient servant,

DUDLEY,

Governor-General.

The President of the Senate, Melbourne.

Commonwealth of Australia.

No. 315.

Downing-street,

Mr Lord, 25th August, 1910.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Your Excellency’s Despatch No. 152 of the 8th of July, transmitting copies of resolutions agreed to by the Senate and the House of Representatives on the assembling of the Fourth Commonwealth Parliament on the1stof July, in reference to the death of Hislate Majesty King Edward VII., and the accession of HisMajesty King George V.

These resolutions have been laid before the King, and I have received His Majesty’s commands to request that you will convey to the President of the Senate and to the Speaker of the House of Representatives, his sincere thanks for their expression of sympathy and loyalty and for their good wishes.

I have the honour to be,

My Lord,

Your Lordship’s most obedient humble servant,

CREWE.

Governor-General,

His Excellency,

The Right Honorable,

The Earl ofDudley, G.C.M.G., G.C.V.O., &c, &c.

page 4066

QUESTION

UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA

The PRESIDENT reported the receipt of a message from the House of Representatives, requesting the concurrence of the Senate in a resolution.

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · South Australia · ALP

– I have very much pleasure in moving -

That the Senate concur in the following resolution : - “ That the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia offers most cordial congratulations to the Parliament of the Union of South Africa upon the establishment of . 1 National Government and Legislature forthat Dominion, capable, under the blessing of Divine Providence, of accomplishing the tasks required for the development of its Provinces and for the unity of the Empire.”

Senator ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD (New South Wales) [2.39].- I assume that the motion is submitted with the concurrence of the Senate, because no notice of it has been given. I have much pleasure in seconding the motion, and I am quite sure that the Senate will not be behind hand in desiring that there may be prosperity in South Africa. Although its new Constitution is in many respects different from that under which the Commonwealth exists, at the same time we cannot fail to recognise that it is a means by which a number of self-governing dependencies have been brought together, so that they may have the opportunity of speaking as the young and rising nation of South Africa, just as we speak on behalf of the young nation of Australia, and the Dominion Government does of Canada. It must be a matter of congratulation that self-governing States have so largely availed themselves of the opportunity of placing themselves in a position to speak as a whole, instead of with different voices. In any case, I am sure that we all wish most hearty success and prosperity to South Africa. We, on this side, are pleased that our Prime Minister has gone there to represent . Australia as a whole, and feel sure that he will acquit himself to the satisfaction of his friends and wellwishers.

Questionresolvedin the affirmative.

page 4066

NAVAL APPROPRIATION BILL

Bill received from the House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator McGregor) read a first time.

page 4066

TRUST FUND ADVANCES BILL

(No. 2).

Bill received from the House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator McGregor) read a first time.

page 4067

SUPPLY BILL (No. 3)

Business of Session - Days of Sitting -Federal Capital - Military College - Financial Policy - Commonwealth Offices : Rentals - Grant to Council of Rifle Association, Victoria - Customs Revenue : Protection - Immigration and Land : Commonwealth Booklet - Public Service : Inequalities in Salaries.

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Senator McGREGOR:
South AustraliaVicePresident of the Executive Council · ALP

– I move -

That thisBill be now read a first time.

– The honorable senator- must be qualifying for the leadership of the Opposition.

Senator ST LEDGER:

– That is a form of gibe which the Vice-President of the Executive Council is fond Qf throwing at me, though I admit that he sometimes hurls it in a more severe form at some of his own supporters. The other branch of the Legislature has scarcely been afforded an opportunity of criticising the financial policy of the Government, and this Chamber is in an even worse position. I think that the Opposition in the Senate should come down heavily upon Ministers.

Senator Pearce:

Senator STEWART:

Senator SAYERS:
Queensland

.- I am surprised at the speech of Senator Stewart, in view of the fact that when the Tariff was under consideration it was repeatedly urged by Protectionists that its effect would be to cheapen goods. The honorable senator supported the imposition of a very high Tariff, and in doing so placed a burden on the whole of the consumers of Australia. But our Protective

– According to this publication, there is no land monopoly.

Referring to Queensland, under the heading of “Agricultural Homesteads,” it states -

Under this mode of selection the area varies with the value of the land, namely, 160 acresin the case of land valued for agricultural farms at not less than £1 per acre -

I do not suppose that anybody will contend that that is a high price to pay for agricultural land - 320 acres in the case of land valued at less than £1, but not less than 15s. per acre ; and 640 acres in the case of land valued at less than 15s. per acre. The price of the land is 2s. 6d. per acre, the annual rental 3d. per acre, and the term ten years.

I think that that is a very good advertisement for Queensland. If land monopoly does exist, where is the fact evidenced, so far as Queensland is concerned? I know that in my own State land can be obtained in the areas mentioned, and at the price stated, and I am very pleased that the Government intend broadcasting that information to the world.

Senator Vardon:

– The honorable senator is using Hansard to advertise Queensland.

Senator SAYERS:

– I will also advertise the State which the honorable senator represents. The publication continues -

Personal residence is required until the land is made freehold, which can be done after five years by the payment of the balance of the purchase money.

All payments of rent are credited towards the purchase money and on proof that the sum expended on improvements on the land has been at the rate of ios., 5s., or as. 6d. per acre, respectively, according to the price of the land.

Under the heading “Free homesteads,” we are told -

The area under this mode must not exceed 160 acres. The term is five years, during which period the selector must occupy the land by personally residing on it, and must effect improvements to the total value of ios. per acre. Farmers in Great Britain and elsewhere may arrange to secure areas suitable for general farming, wheat growing, dairying, or other productive purposes prior to their departure to Queensland. In such cases application must be made to the Agent-General for Queensland, Marble Hall, the Strand, London, who, on being satisfied with the bona fides of the application, will set aside an area which will be reserved until the applicant has an opportunity of inspecting it. If for any reason the area thus reserved is found to be unsatisfactory, the applicant, without forfeiture of any deposit, may seek another area, but he will have no prior right to applicants already in the State to such fresh areas.

– Tasmania is a mere bagatelle in comparison with all Australia. The pamphlet from which I am quoting supplies some information with regard to Western Australia -

Conditional . purchase by direct payment -

From 100 to 1,000 acres at from 10s. per acre, payable within twelve months.

No one will say for a moment that that is a high price to pay for land. A thousand acres can be obtained for £500.

Senator de Largie:

– The price has gone up now.

Senator SAYERS:

– This pamphlet is dated 10th August, and I do not think that the honorable senator can have much later information than the Minister of External Affairs bad.

Senator de Largie:

– Western Australia is finding that the land is more valuable than was supposed-

Senator SAYERS:

– Even at £1 per acre the price would not be high. If a man could get 500 acres for £500 it would not be a high price. We are also informed -

Land for orchards, vineyards, or gardens -

From 5 to 50 acres, from 20s. per acre, payable in three years. Improvements : One-tenth cultivated as a garden or orchard, including fence or boundaries, to be completed in three years. The Minister may, in his discretion, permit any lessee to substitute in lieu of fencing any other prescribed improvement of equal value.

No one will tell me that land is scarce in that State, or that excessive land values are preventing people from settling there. Consequently the statement is not true of either Western Australia or Queensland. What is the state of things in New South Wales? We are told that -

Land that is suited to wheat growing combined with grazing will fetch from £2 to ^5 an acre -

The districts being the Metropolitan Western. Central, Wimmera, Mallee, Northern, North-Eastern, and Eastern (Gippsland) -

Land suitable for market gardening in the brighton and Mordialloc districts, ranges from ^’20 to ^50 per acre.

That, of course, is land in close proximity to Melbourne. The Brighton district is, indeed, part of Melbourne -

Good fruit-growing land can be obtained in the Doncaster and Diamond Creek districts from £to to £20 per acre.

The rainfall of the Cressy portion of this district is about 23 inches per annum ; the land is practically clear of timber, easily cultivated, and moderate in price, ranging from ^5 to £y per acre.

Around Hamilton and Casterton the price of land varies from £8 to £15 per acre, and on the rich volcanic land around Camperdown, Colac, and Warrnambool, from £2 to ,£40 per acre.

Senator Findley:

– More like from £12 1:0 £I3° per acre.

Senator SAYERS:

– Why did not the honorable senator have that statement put in the pamphlet? Why does he try ,to throw cold water on a document issued on his own authority as a member of the Ministry ?

Senator McGregor:

– The statement is near enough to the truth.

Senator SAYERS:

– A statement that is merely “ near enough “ to the truth is issued by this Government -

Farms of great fertility in the Koroit and Tower Hill districts have been sold at higher prices. In the Cape Otway forest district, partially cleared, land ranged from £3 to £12 per acre.

Where, then, is the evidence of high and extortionate prices for land, even in Victoria, which is more thickly populated than any other State? Evidently, land is to be acquired.

Senator Stewart:

– Oh, it is very cheap ! It is dirt cheap.

Senator SAYERS:

– Anyhow, this document has been published to the world under the authority of the present Government, which Senator Stewart supports. Too great stress cannot be laid upon that fact. Let me quote the prologue of the pamphlet, which is signed by Mr. Batchelor, Minister of External Affairs. He says -

In extending to farmers and farm-workers an invitation to take advantage of opportunities that exist for prosperous settlement in Australia, the Government of the Commonwealth wishes to make it clear that there is no desire to discriminate against other classes of settlers.

Agriculturists are specially invited and assisted to come to Australia, because it is considered that in a progressive young country, with so much territory proved to be suitable for the growth of produce for which there is everincreasing demand in local and oversea markets, such settlers will advance the interests of the country and of themselves.

The’ contents of this book have been compiled from information furnished by responsible authorities, to whom this opportunity is taken of expressing the thanks of the Government of the Commonwealth.

Senator SAYERS:

Senator Vardon:

– I simply said that there were inequalities.

Senator McGREGOR:

– If there are inequalities they arise out of the judgment of the Public Service Commissioner and his inspectors. Every one will admit that these gentlemen know the value of the services rendered in the different offices that they have examined better than an ordinary member of Parliament can ; and if they see fit to pay£20 more to an officer in Western Australia than to one in South Australia, or£40 more to one in South Australia than to one in Queensland, they have done so because the work of the office, or of the officer, is of such a character as to justify the difference. As far as concerns political influence, I wish Senator Vardon would go down to the Public Service Commissioner’s office and try to work that influence upon him. He would soon realize the impossibility of doing anything of the kind. As far as I am concerned, I did not support the appointment of a Public Service Commissioner. I was always in favour of Parliamentary and Ministerial responsibility. But the officer has been appointed. He has done his duty faithfully and well ; and I, as a member of this Government, intend to support his decisions. I think I have now dealt with all that requires to be said in answer to criticisms, and I hope that, in view of the programme of work that we have to accomplish, the Government will receive help both from the Opposition and their own supporters to enable the legislation to be passed within a reasonable time.

Question resolved in the affirmative.=

Bill read a first time.

Motion (by Senator McGregor) agreed to-

That so much of the Standing Orders be suspended as would prevent this Bill being passed through all its stages without delay.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 postponed.

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

Schedule.

– Senator McGregor made some references to which Senator Chataway has addressed himself in reply. I do not think that the latter was out of order.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– I resent very much the manner in which Senator McGregor has treated questions from this side. I thought that I spoke civilly enough. I certainly spoke with no desire other than to get information of which I was not possessed. How he could have inferred that I had risen as a sort of joke I am at a loss to understand. He started with a personal reflection on myself, which I took as good humouredly as I thought it was given. He made a direct assertion that I had merely asked the question in order to waste time, and when he was asked to give the names of the Committee he gave me the names of three eminent, well-known men whom we would all trust for that particular purpose. Then he went further and insinuated that another of the indirect objects which I had in asking the question was that I might indirectly cast a reflection on three able and trusted gentlemen. I did nothing of the kind. I simply knew nothing about the matter. I thought that the bond fide manner in which I asked the question would have been apparent to the Minister. It seems to me that Ministers’ nerves are getting so frayed that when one or two senators rise on this side they lose all con trol over ordinary good manner and good form.

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · South Australia · ALP

– I humbly apologize to the honorable senator if I misunderstood him. I hope that when he has a few remarks to make in future, especially if they are directed to me, he will give us an intimation as to whether he is really serious or joking, and then I shall be able to treat him accordingly. If I have misunderstood him on this occasion I am very sorry. I have given him the information desired.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Divisions 3.7 to 20 (Attorney-General s Department) , £2,669. agreed to.

Divisions 21 to 29 (Home Affairs). £47,320.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

– According to a return an annual rent of £60 is paid for the Electoral Offices in the Treasury Building at Brisbane. The offices are two miserable, badlyventilated, badly-drained rooms situated almost in the vault of the Treasury. When I paid mylast visit the offices were so crowded that there was hardly room for anybody to move. I addressed to the Department a letter, in which I pointed out how impossible it was for the work to be properly carried out there. One room was allotted to the principal officer, and the other accommodated six or eight clerks, and, if I remember aright, it measured about 20 feet by 14 feet. My visit was paid in what is known as the wet season, and the whole place was putrid with the smell of growing vegetable matter half way up to the windows of the rooms, which faced a quadrangle. There was no room for the officers to move about, and there was absolutely no room for people to go in to do business. Probably the last Government, and the one they replaced, were more to blame than are the present Government. The public cannot even get a glimpse of the rolls so badly lighted is the miserable place. It is unhealthy, and not worth any rent. I do not expect a definite reply to-day, but I ask the Department to look into the. matter, and see if better quarters cannot be obtained for the accommodation of the electoral officers.

Senator FINDLEY:
Honorary Minister · Victoria · ALP

– I shall bring Senator Chataway’s complaint regarding the Electoral Offices at Brisbane under the notice of the Minister of Home Affairs, and if the building is half as bad as he has alleged, it is altogether unsuitable.

Senator Chataway:

– The building is all right, but the rooms occupied as electoral offices are situated on the cellar floor.

Senator FINDLEY:

– The honorable senator asserts that the rooms set apart for electoral purposes are not suited for the use of the public?

Senator Chataway:

– Yes, they are poisonous.

Senator St LEDGER:

– Especially at election time.

Senator FINDLEY:

– I shall bring the complaint immediately under the notice of my honorable colleague.

Senator ST. LEDGER (Queensland) (5.41]. - On page 7 of the schedule, I notice an item of £5,000 for the collection and compilation of the census. I hope that the money is not to be spent in the compilation of that awful set of questions which has been circulated. I hope that not another penny will be spent in this matter until the Parliament has had an opportunity, if possible, of correcting some sort of lunacy which is beginning to manifest itself in the Department regarding the questions to be set for persons to answer. Let me take one typical, awful stupidity. I notice that the Vice-President of the Executive Council is entering the chamber, and I must say that here is an occasion when the Department, if they are really serious in this matter, should state in red ink, “ This is really not a joke; it is serious.” According to the census-paper, every householder in A.ustralia has to answer the question in this form-

– The honorable senator might give some explanation of the item, “ Expenses in connexion with administration of Electoral Act, £6,000.”

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator Sayers:

– But the general elections were held last year.

Senator FINDLEY:

– The amount does not include the cost of the general elections.

For the current financial year the amount proposed to be voted is £32,770, or nearly £1,000 less than that voted last year. From this £32,770 the sum of £6,000 which appears in the Bill under consideration has to be deducted. That £6,000 is intended to cover the usual expenditure incurred in connexion with the administration of the Electoral Department.

Senator Lt.-Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD (New South Wales) [6.2].- I have referred to the Budget Papers, and I find that last year the expenditure in connexion with the administration of the Electoral Act was £33,557. But there was also an expenditure of £41,779, under the heading “ Commonwealth Elections.” We are not in a position to discriminate between the way in which the money was expended upon these two items ; but it seems to me that the £41,779 was an extraordinary expenditure.

Senator Pearce:

– Yes; and the other was the annual expenditure.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

– Then I take it that an expenditure of £30,000 or £36,000 must recur each year, irrespective of whether or not a general election takes place. It would have been well if the Minister had given the Committee a fuller explanation of this matter in the first instance. It may be that this expenditure is incurred in collecting the names for the electoral rolls each year, in printing them, and in defraying the cost of holding Revision Courts.

Senator St Ledger:

– The new card system is bound to cost something.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

.- The Vice-President of the Executive Council has said that to-morrow night we may be afforded an opportunity of discussing the questions to be placed upon the census papers-.

Senator Pearce:

– We are certainly not going to have a double discussion of the matter.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

– The Opposition are certainly not going to swallow any questions which the Minister of Home Affairs may choose to place upon the census papers without being afforded an opportunity of debating them. So far as I am aware, no regulation has been gazetted authorizing certain questions to be placed upon the census papers. If that be so, it will not be legal to place those questions there. The Acts Interpretation Act 1904 provides -

Where an Act confers power to make regulations, all regulations made accordingly shall, unless the contrary intention appears -

be notified in the Gazette;

take effect from the date of notification, or from a later date specified in. the regulations ;

be laid before both Houses of the Parliament within thirty days of the making thereof, or, if the Parliament is not then sitting, within thirty daysafter the next meeting of the Parliament.

But if either House of the Parliament passesa resolution, of which notice has been given, at any time within fifteen sitting days after such regulations have been laid before such Housedisallowing any regulation, such regulationshall thereupon cease to have effect.

Has any such regulation been gazetted, and, if so, has a copy of it been laid upon the table of the Senate ? If it has not been gazetted, do the Government contemplatelaying such a regulation upon the table, and thus affording us an opportunity of discussing it?

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

– I have been looking up the figuresrelating to the expenses of electoral administration during previous years, and I find that in July, 1907, under the heading of “ Miscellaneous “ there is an item “ Expenses in connexion with the administration of the Electoral Act. , £1,000.” That item appears in a Supply Bill which granted Supply for only one month. Consequently, in a Supply Bill which is intended to cover two months, the expenditure in this connexion ought to be £2,000.

Senator Pearce:

– Does not the honorable senator take into consideration the total expenditure for the year?

Senator CHATAWAY:

– In 1907 the amount provided for the expenses of electoral administration in another Supply Bilk which covered one month was £1,500. That is equivalent to , £3,000 in a Bill which is intended to cover two months. In; still another Supply Bill the expenditure under this headingwas £1,000. Yet we are now asked to vote £6,000 to cover an expenditure for two months. If the additional expenditure is required to defray the cost of introducing the card system of indexing, I have no complaint to make. But we are not unreasonable when we ask why we are invited to vote £3,000 a month tocover the expense of administering this Department for a period of one month, when on previous occasions we have been asked to vote only £1,000 or, at most, £1,500.

Senator FINDLEY:
Honorary Minister · Victoria · ALP

– Senator Chataway has been at some pains to show that, in connexion with previous Supply Bills, smaller amounts have been voted.

Senator Chataway:

– Monthly Supply Bills.

Senator FINDLEY:

– In the Supply Bill which we recently passed items 5 and 6 are identical with items 5 and 6 of the present Bill. Those items read “ Expenses in connexion with administration of the Electoral Act, ,£6, 000,” and “ Cost of Commonwealth elections, £1,000.” The last Bill passed through this Chamber without any honorable senator questioning the amounts or desiring any information in respect of them. But something seems to have happened to-day, and they appear to imagine that fresh expenditure is being incurred.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould:

– The Opposition must watch the Government.

Senator FINDLEY:

– Upon a former occasion, the members of the Opposition did not take the same serious view of this question that they appear to take now.

Senator Chataway:

– We may have “ missed the ‘bus “ previously, but that is no reason why we should not have an explanation now.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Divisions 30 to 35 (The Treasury), £19,240.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

– I should like to know if there is any way in which we can avoid duplication in the printing of documents for the two branches of the Legislature? I mentioned this matter some time during the last Parliament. I was then, under the impression that the evil could be remedied if the Printing Committee chose to take the necessary steps. But since I have been appointed a member of that body I have discovered that, under our present Standing Orders, it is powerless to remedy it. Honorable senators are familiar with the form in which the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Representatives and the Journals of the Senate appear. Usually the report of the Printing Committee occupies about one and a-half folios of printed matter. Precisely the same document is presented to both branches of the Legislature. Its contents are in tabulated form, and, consequently, are somewhat expensive to put into type. Yet the document is set up separately for each House. It ought to be a perfectly simple matter to use the same material in printing the records of each House.

Senator Vardon:

– Is the honorable senator sure that they do not do that?

Senator CHATAWAY:

– They do not. On one occasion I compared the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Representatives with the Journals of the Senate, and found that a table printed in each was not spaced in the same way. That will show Senator Vardon, who is a practical printer, that the same type was not used in each case, although there was not a solitary word of difference between the two. I do not expect the Government to show forthwith how to avoid this duplication. I have been thinking over the matter, and made an endeavour to bring it before the Printing Committee ; but I found that that could not be done under the Standing Orders, because the Committee was not empowered to deal with the printing of either House of Legislature, but only with the printing of documents presented to Parliament. The matter should be taken in hand in the interests of economy. Every member of Parliament feels it to be his bounden duty to keep the expenses down as much as possible. There is no need to pay for printing twice over if we can avoid it. I suggest that the Government should endeavour to see whether something cannot be done to obviate overlapping. I admit I do not know how it can be prevented. It might involve a complete reorganization . of our parliamentary methods in respect to printing. But I should be glad if something could be done. I believe that our printing bill could be reduced by something like 10 per cent.

Senator McGREGOR:
South AustraliaVice President of the Executive Council · ALP

– The Government and the Senate ought to be much obliged to Senator Chataway for bringing this . matter before us. We are certainly desirous of securing economy where that can be done without interfering with efficiency. As the honorable senator has suggested, however, it would be impossible for me to point out how a remedy might be effected. His remarks will be brought before the ActingTreasurer, and submitted to the Government Printer. An explanation will be called for. When we get to the Federal Capital, and have our own printing office under our own management, I trust that such duplication will be remedied ; and I would. ask honorable senators to: expedite business in. order that we may secure that object as soon as possible.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Divisions 41 to 51 (The Department of Trade and Customs), £57,981.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

– Lately there has: been handed to us a report of the trawler Endeavour, which is engaged in fisheries investigation. A number of these isolated reports have been furnished to us. They show the work that has been done within specified intervals. I desire to ask whether the Government cannot arrange to have these reports, which are being furnished piecemeal, properly edited and brought together, so that we may have a record of the investigations made by the Endeavour in Australian waters, showing clearly the work that has been done and the amount of success that has been achieved ? These interim reports merely show what has been done during twelve or fourteen days in Queensland or New South Wales. Mr. Dannevig, who is in charge of the Endeavour, ought to furnish us. with a general report in such a form that the public might learn something about the trawling possibilities on the Australian coast. Will the Minister make a note of the point and see whether . a report cannot be furnished of the proceedings of the vessel up to the 30th July ? If the Government wish to have an illustration of how that sort of thing can be done, I refer them to the very fine reports made by the late Mr. W. Saville-Kent in connexion with the Queensland fisheries. Those reports not only show that on a particular date the vessel engaged in the service got the net on to a rock bottom, but gave illustrations of the voyages and furnished interesting particulars. The books that Mr. Saville-Kent wrote were very valuable, and were of great benefit to the fisheries of Queensland. The Government having taken this work in hand, it would be a good thing to have a report furnished to Parliament showing the progress that has been made up to date on the Endeavour.

Senator PEARCE:
Western AustraliaMinister of Defence · ALP

– The work to which Senator Chataway has referred has been in progress for some time past, and has reached such a stage that it will soon be possible to systematize the results and to furnish a complete report. I have before me, ready to be laid upon the table of the Senate, a report of the work of the Endeavour in Southern Queensland and in

New South Wales. A note by Mr. Lockyer is appended to the document in which he says. -

I forward’ herewith, by direction of the Minister, to be laid on the table of the Senate, copy of a report of the 27th cruise of the fishing investigation ship Endeavour in southern Queensland and northern New South Wales waters. It is desired that this and subsequent preliminary reports of the work of the Endeavour shall not be printed in the present form., as it is intended to submit for publication later on a full report dealing with the number of cruises conjointly.

It is intended that the report to be prepared shall deal with the whole of the investigations made by the Endeavour during a series of twenty-nine cruises. Two more of those cruises have to be made,, and two more progress reports will be received, before the general report is prepared. That is the proper way in which such reports should be dealt with. Obviously, the material and the results gathered as a consequence of each of these cruises are not of much value in themselves. It is only when the Endeavour has extended her operations over a considerable area, and when Mr. Dannevig,. and the Customs officers appointed to cooperate with him, are able to prepare reports, and bring them into some sequence, that the information collected will be of great value. At the present time, Mr. Dannevig is co-operating with scientific experts at the universities in regard to the kinds of fish obtained. Information is being tabulated as to points at which the fish have been caught, with the view of locating them for the benefit of fishermen; and also to indicate where they are to be found at different seasons. When the results of the twenty-nine cruises are put together, it will be found that valuable information has been obtained for the use of capitalists and others who may desire to put money into a trawling enterprise. It will be scientific information of a reliable character as to where certain fish are to be found, the seasons of the year when they are in the waters indicated, and the kind of bottom upon which the trawler will have to operate. The Customs officer now on duty here is co-operating with Mr. Dannevig in this work; and, as I have said, the scientific authorities at the various universities are being consulted in order that the information obtained may be presented in the most useful form.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould:

– How much longer will the work take?

Senator PEARCE:

– The work of tabulation is going on ; but two more cruises have to be completed, at the end of which work the report will soon be ready for the printer.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

Senator PEARCE:
Minister of Defence · Western Australia · ALP

– With regard to the explosion at Thursday Island, no further facts have been ascertained, and no explanation of the explosion has yet been given. With respect to the reference to an aeroplane corps, the honorable senator is, no doubt, aware that the late Government made provision for a competitive test of aeroplane machines, and offered a prize of £5,000, under certain conditions. A number of entries have been received, and local committees have been appointed to test the machines submitted. So far, none have been submitted for a practical test; but we hope shortly that in some of the States machines will be submitted to a practical test. We have instructed military officers we have in England, who are attending manoeuvres there, to pay particular attention to what is being done in connexion with the use of aeroplanes and dirigible balloons, and to send out all the information they become possessed of on the subject. Several of the officers have already acted upon these instructions, but the information so far received is not of a very encouraging character. It appears that the difficulties inherent in the use of such machines have not yet been overcome, and it is not demonstrated that they are of any real military value. We shall have reports on the subject from time to time, and when the Government are satisfied that aeroplanes or dirigibles are of practical use in time of war, they will be prepared to make provision for their use. There is in the Commonwealth at the present time an aeronaut who is willing to give instruction in the art of flying. The persons interested have waited upon me, and have said that they are prepared to submit to the Defence Department a specific offer to instruct certain of our officers in the art. When the offer is made, I shall be prepared to give it favorable consideration.

Senator Chataway:

– Are the local committees referred to by the Minister Departmental Committees ?

Senator PEARCE:

– Yes; but in each case they include a civil engineer or a professor of civil engineering from one of the Universities.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Divisions 211 to 217 (The PostmasterGeneral’s Department), £517,328.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– I should like to ask one or two questions in connexion with the vote for the Vancouver mail service. It forms, I suppose, a part of the subsidy payable under the existing contract, which will continue in operation until August of next vear. I should like to know if the Government are still in negotiation with the Governments of New Zealand and Canada with regard to a new mail service between Canada, New Zealand, and Australia? I suppose that the negotiations are not yet complete ; but, if they are, perhaps the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral will be able to say whether it is the intention of the Government, in the new contract, to modify materially, or at all, the conditions as to the route to be followed by the vessels engaged in the service.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

– There have been so many wrecks on the coast of King Island that if tombstones were erected there to the memory of those who have perished in those wrecks, it would make the place a very fine cemetery. I wish to know if the Government are prepared to undertake the trifling expense of erecting a wireless telegraph station on

King Island? We know that the cost of such a station must be comparatively trifling, because nearly every steam-ship of any importance is now provided with the necessary apparatus for wireless telegraphy. There are about 800 people on King Island, and there are 40,000 or 60,000 acres of land there suitable for settlement. But I speak in this matter, not on behalf of the residents of the island at all. I have recently met men who have lived there for the last twenty years, and they say that what prevents settlement on the island is the fact that there is no means of communication with the mainland or with Tasmania, except by a steamer or sailing vessels. I should like to know whether the Government intend, even though it may be difficult to decide whether Jones’ system or Brown’s system is the best, to establish a wireless telegraphic station on King Island as soon as possible.

Senator Guthrie:

– We must have uniformity.

Senator CHATAWAY:

Senator CHATAWAY:

– As a matter of fact, this telephone business has not been discussed in the Senate, and I am doing nothing unreasonable in discussing it now. Would the Government mind looking at the telephone system from the point of view of the public, not of the officials? I would give this much credit to the officers - that one can look through their official reports from beginning to end and find no indication that they advised the Government to adopt this new system. We are now being faced with a most extraordinary proposition. We do not know how we stand. I came in under the measured system and thought I knew exactly where I was. But after four or five weeks I discovered that if I happened to move from my present house to another I should have to guarantee the Government to stand by the telephone for four years and to pay for two years in advance. When I first had the telephone installed I was Government Whip, and I suppose that I was furnished with the service just about as promptly as anybody could be. I have no complaint to make on that score. But how long would an ordinary suburban resident be kept? He would be called upon i0 PaY m advance, and it might be five or six weeks before he got his telephone. In addition to that, he would have to give a guarantee to keep the telephone for four years. No such condition as that has been previously laid down in Australia or in any other part of the world. I venture to say that the Government cannot find a case in the world where it is demanded that a telephone subscriber shall not have an instrument put into his house unless he guarantees to pay for it for four years, and, in addition, to put down two years’ subscription in advance. Whether these statements that have appeared in the newspaper are correct or not I do not know, but I shall be glad to listen to a Ministerial explanation.

Senator FINDLEY:
Honorary Minister · Victoria · ALP

– Senator Chataway commenced by saying that, as a newspaper man, he did not, as a rule, believe everything published in newspapers. But his argument would induce one to believe that he was thoroughly satisfied with that which appeared in a newspaper to-day with respect to the telephone service. As a matter of fact, the statement to which he lias called’ attention is absolutely incorrect.

– It is as follows”-

Provided also that where the cost of construction of the line exceeds the first year’srental, but not the total rental of the first and second yeaTS, the subscriber shall be required’ to pay one year’s rental in advance, and ta enter into an agreement to pay rental for the line for a further year.

Melbourne, that the employes bless the day when the present Postmaster-General introduced the new system.

Senator Sayers:

– Do the Government run the telephone system for the benefit of the employes?

Senator FINDLEY:

– No, it is not run for them ; but they are not now taxed to the same extent as they used to be in having to attend to frivolous calls. The falling off in calls may be due to the fact that there are not now so many frivolous calls as there were formerly. With regard to the Vancouver mail service, Senator Chataway has said that when the Postmaster-General was in Brisbane he was deputationized by the Chamber of Commerce and one or two other representative bodies, and said that he would not be a party to any contract that would place any disability upon Brisbane. What the Postmaster-General said he intends, if possible, to carry out.

Senator Chataway:

– If possible?

Senator FINDLEY:

– Yes, he cannot do an impossibility. I desire to give the assurance to the honorable senator that before anything definite is done in connexion with the service the contract will be laid upon the table of the Senate, and honorable senators will have an opportunity of perusing and discussing it.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– It is well known that the negotiations which have been mentioned by myself and Senator Chataway are, and must be, more or less confidential. We have respected that, confidence, at any rate I have. I hope that the Government will be shortly able to declare their ‘intention with regard to the Vancouver mail service. It must be evident that it will take them every hour of the intervening eight months, if they have not begun negotiations, to bring about a satisfactory contract. Over and over again it has been pointed out, as a reason for haste, by the Canadian Government, that it will take them twelve months to fix up a contract. Month after month is passing by. The Postmaster-General has got every member of the Senate more or less in confidence as to what went on at the interview. The Government remain mute all the time, and we have to extract information, so to speak, through their teeth. While every senator who was present at the deputation in Sydney and in Brisbane will preserve the confidence which the Postmaster-General imposed on them, or asked us to give him, I think that he is not dealing fairly with us.

Senator McGregor:

– What does the honorable senator want him to do?

Senator ST LEDGER:

– The PostmasterGeneral ought to be able to declare his intention quickly. He knows that if he is going to alter the contract, or to stand by the route, and, to a certain extent, by the cost, he has- to continue the service as it exists to-day ; and that it will take him fully twelve months to perfect his arrangements.

Senator Findley:

– Senator Chataway seems to be satisfied with the assurance I gave; but the honorable senator is dissatisfied.

Senator ST LEDGER:

– I wish toconfirm the statement of Senator Gould that subscribers are frequently cut off in the middle of their conversations. The other day I was cut off for about three minutes. In such circumstances, shall I be charged for two messages ? It is a simple question, to which I shall be glad to have an answer.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 39 (Refunds of Revenue), £20,000, agreed to.

Postponed clause 2 agreed to.

Preamble and title agreed to.

Bill reported without request, and passed through its remaining stages.

page 4113

ADJOURNMENT

Order of Business - Navigation Bill

Motion (by Senator McGregor) proposed -

That the Senate do now adjourn.

– It is the intention of the Government to push on with the Navigation Bill, and we shall take other measures to make up the ground that we have lost to-day. Honorable senators must be prepared for that.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

Senator ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - What will be the order of business tomorrow ?

Senator McGREGOR:

– We intend to deal with the Naval Appropriation Bill first, secondly with the Trust Fund Advances Bill, and afterwards with the Navigation Bill.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned at 10.55p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 5 October 1910, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1910/19101005_SENATE_4_57/>.

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Senate 5 October 1910

PETITION

Senator VARDON:SOUTH AUSTRALIA

QUESTION

TUESDAY SITTING

Senator WALKER:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator McGREGOR:Vice-President of the Executive Council · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

PAPERS

APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL

DEATH OF KING EDWARD VII. AND ACCESSION OF KING GEORGE V

Sir,

QUESTION

UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA

Senator McGREGOR:Vice-President of the Executive Council · South Australia · ALP

Senator ALBERT GOULD:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

NAVAL APPROPRIATION BILL

TRUST FUND ADVANCES BILL

SUPPLY BILL (No. 3)

Senator McGREGOR:South AustraliaVicePresident of the Executive Council · ALP

Senator Needham:

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

Senator Story:

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

Senator Needham:

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

Senator McGregor:

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

Senator Buzacott:

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:

Senator WALKER:New South Wales

Senator de Largie:

Senator WALKER:

Senator de Largie:

Senator WALKER:

Senator McGregor:

Senator WALKER:

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator WALKER:

Senator ST LEDGER:Queensland

Senator Pearce:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator Pearce:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator Givens:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator Givens:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator McGregor:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator Pearce:

Senator CHATAWAY:Queensland

Senator Guthrie:

Senator CHATAWAY:

Senator McGregor:

Senator CHATAWAY:

Senator Lynch:

Senator CHATAWAY:

Senator McGregor:

Senator CHATAWAY:

Senator de Largie:

Senator CHATAWAY:

Senator O’KEEFE:Tasmania

Senator Chataway:

Senator O’KEEFE:

Senator Chataway:

Senator O’KEEFE:

Senator STEWART:Queensland

Senator St Ledger:

Senator STEWART:

Senator St Ledger:

Senator STEWART:

Senator GIVENS:QUEENSLAND · ALP; NAT

Senator STEWART:

Senator St Ledger:

Senator STEWART:

Senator St Ledger:

Senator STEWART:

Senator Pearce:

Senator STEWART:

Senator McGregor:

Senate
5 October 1910

Senator VARDON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator WALKER:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · South Australia · ALP

Senator ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

Senator McGREGOR:
South AustraliaVicePresident of the Executive Council · ALP

Senator WALKER:
New South Wales

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

Senator O’KEEFE:
Tasmania

Senator STEWART:
Queensland

Senator GIVENS:
QUEENSLAND · ALP; NAT

Senator SAYERS:
QUEENSLAND · ANTI-SOC

Senator SAYERS:
Queensland