Senate
28 August 1907

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- IMPERIAL CONFERENCE : PAPERS
QUESTION
- WIRE NETTING INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- QUARANTINE
QUESTION
- TARIFF COMMISSION’S REPORTS
NAVIGATION BILL
QUESTION
- TARIFF: STATE IMPORTS
QUESTION
- CABLES TO TASMANIA
BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL
BOUNTIES BILL
- Second Reading
PAPERS
ADJOURNMENT

The President took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 2405

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CONFERENCE : PAPERS

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist

– I shall be very pleased indeed to inquire whether the papers are immediately available; and, assuming .they are not too voluminous, 1 shall willingly comply with the suggestion of my honorable friend.

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

– Perhaps, in order to assist my honorable friend, I may be permitted to say that the papers are not so voluminous as the minutes of proceedings in which, they are continually referred to by the speakers. I have been looking through the minutes of proceedings, and my honorable friend will find that even for his own convenience it is desirable that the papers should be made available.

page 2405

QUESTION

WIRE NETTING INDUSTRY

Senator MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, whether he has obtained further information on the subject of the number of wire netting factories in the Commonwealth ?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– I have obtained the following information -

At present, there are in .ill twenty-four wireworking factories, employing 656 hands, in the Commonwealth, of which - so far as the statistical records show - one only makes wire netting.

In New South Wales and Victoria, there were the following numbers in 1905 and 1906 -

Wire-workers include others besides makers of wire-netting.

The Statistics Act of the State concerned, for obvious reasons, prevents the publication of information respecting a single industrial establishment. The principle involved was reaffirmed by the 1906 Conference of Statisticians,, and approved by the Commonwealth and States Governments, for this reason, complete information as to wire-netting establishments cannot be given.

page 2405

QUESTION

QUARANTINE

Senator ST LEDGER:
QUEENSLAND

– I desire to ask: the Minister of Home Affairs, without notice, if he has yet obtained any information with regard to the cost of the» State quarantine establishments and Boards of Health?

Senator KEATING:
Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

– I have not obtained the whole of .the information for which the honorable senator has asked ; but I am endeavouring to get it.

page 2405

QUESTION

TARIFF COMMISSION’S REPORTS

Senator CLEMONS:
TASMANIA

– I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, if he has yet taken any steps in the direction of having the reports of the two branches of the Tariff Commission bound in two separate volumes? I would remind the Minister that if the reports were so bound, and in covers bearing distinguishing colours, it would be a convenience to every honorable senator. The binding would not be expensive, and the bulk produced would be quite small.

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– On the same day as my honorable friend put his question, or on the following day, I asked the Department of Trade and Customs, if possible, to see their way to comply with his request.

page 2405

NAVIGATION BILL

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– I very much regret that so far I have been unable to lay the N avigabon Bill before the Senate, but that is through no fault of myself or the Government. Unfortunately the final report of the Navigation Commission has not yet been received. We expect that it will be received within a week, and if it is, I. should say that with very little delay the Navigation Bill will be introduced here. Subject to anything which may transpire subsequently, I may go so far as to say that if the final report is received this week I hope to be able to move the second reading of the Bill on Friday week.

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

– Is the Bill ready ?

Senator BEST:

– The Bill is in rough draft, but of course it cannot be completed until we have had an opportunity of perusing the final report of the Navigation Commission. .

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

– May we not have a copy of the rough draft?

Senator Sayers:

– It is too rough.

Senator MACFARLANE:
TASMANIA

– May I ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council if the rough draft depends upon the report of the Navigation Commision?

Senator Clemons:

– No; the smoothing of the rough draft depends upon that report.

Senator MACFARLANE:

– I understand that the Navigation Bill has been in print for a little time, and the report is not yet printed. I desire to know the connexion, if any, between the two things.

Senator BEST:

– I can assure my honorable friend that it will be of very great value to the Government to know his representations. It will enable us to give full consideration to the views of himself as well as of the others who were appointed with himselfto investigate the question.

Senator de Largie:

– As one of the Commissioners, he might throw some light on the reason why the report has been delayed.

page 2406

QUESTION

TARIFF: STATE IMPORTS

Is it a fact that upwards of three years ago the Pull Court of the State” of New South Wales gave judgment in favour of that State’s claim that goods imported by the Government of that State were not liable to duty as demanded by the Government of the Commonwealth?

Did the Commonwealth Government make application or appeal to the Privy Council against such judgment?

Was such application or appeal subsequently abandoned by the Commonwealth Government ?

Has it been in the power of the Commonwealth Government to appeal to the High Court of Australia against the judgment of the Supreme Court of New South Wales ?

Has the Commonwealth Government made any application or appeal to the High Court in. opposition or relation to the said judgment of” the said Supreme Court?

Has the Commonwealth Government obeyed the said judgment?

Is not the position of the Commonwealth Government in relation to this matter that of art. unsuccessful litigant who will neither obey the judgment of the Court whose decision it evoked nor appeal against such judgment?

Is it the intention of the Commonwealth Government to disregard the law, as laid down by the Supreme Court of New South Wales?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow -

Yes.
The Commonwealth Government applied for and obtained leave to appeal to the Privy Council - the High Court not having then been constituted.
Yes ; after the High Court was constituted - the tribunal specially marked out by the Constitution as the final court of appeal on questions as to the limits inter se of the constitutional powers of the Commonwealth and the States.
It was the opinion of the law advisers of the Commonwealth that there was no power to appeal to the High Court from the judgment.
No.
Yes; by paying to the State of New South Wales the amount adjudged to be paid.
No.
The Commonwealth Government cannot regard the decision of the Supreme Court of New South Wales as the ultimate declaration of the law, as the Supreme Court is not the final Court of Appeal on constitutional questions, and its jurisdiction is limited to New South Wales. The Commonwealth Government has to administer what it believes to be the law in alt the States of the Commonwealth. If it is mistaken, any State which is aggrieved has a simple constitutional method of testing the matter.

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

– Was not the real reason that there was an appeal to the Privy Council, and that subsequently when the Commonwealth Government abandoned that appeal it was too late to appeal to the High Court ?

Senator Best:

– I believe so.

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

– And they did not ask that the time for appealing should be extended, as they could have done?

Senator Best:

– I believe so.

Senator Clemons:

– Then “No” was not an answer to the fourth question !

page 2406

QUESTION

CABLES TO TASMANIA

Senator DOBSON:
TASMANIA · FT; TARIFF REFORM from 1903

asked the Minister re presenting the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

On what date did the Government ask the

Eastern Extension Company if they would put, their cables across Bass Strait under offer to the Commonwealth ?

What reply was received from the company, and what is the date of such reply ?
Will the Minister lay On the table all correspondence relating to the proposed purchase of the company’s cables?

Senator KEATING:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow -

The Eastern Extension Telegraph Company was written to on 16th August, 1907.
On the 17th idem the manager in Australasia replied that he had cabled to London on the subject.
The Postmaster-General is not prepared to lay the correspondence on the table at present.

page 2407

BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL

Senator KEATING:
Min ister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– I move -

That this Bill be recommitted for the purpose of reconsidering clause 100 and the second schedule.

I have already announced my intention of submitting this motion, and my reasons for so doing. Clause 100 relates to notaries. Senator Walker. - Does not the honorable senator intend to ask for the recommittal of clause 4, in order to insert “ promissory note” after “bill of exchange” in the definition of “ bill “ ?

Senator KEATING:

– What the honorable senator asks for is provided in subclause 2 of clause 100, which says that -

The form given in the second schedule may be used with necessary modifications, and, if used, shall be sufficient.

Question amended accordingly.

Senator SAYERS:
Queensland

– It seems peculiar for an honorable senator to desire, once an amendment has been carried, to have the Bill altered to the way it stood previously.

Senator Keating:

– The provision was not in the original Bill.

Senator SAYERS:

– The Committee decided the matter, and I hope they will stick to their decision.

Question, as amended, resolved in the affirmative.

In Committee (Recommittal) :

Clause 79 -

Where a cheque is not presented for payment until twelve months after it becomes payable, a banker shall not be responsible or incur any liability by reason of refusing the payment thereof.

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

– - My chief object in proposing to alter the period of twelve months to six months is to consider the interests of the public generally, or, at any rate, of that part of the public who are accustomed and able to draw cheques. It would be inconvenient for a man who has drawn a cheque to find that it could be held out against him for as Jong as twelve months. The shortening of the period would be to the advantage of the public. On the other hand, it must not be made too short in a country of such vast areas as Australia, but with our present postal facilities, or want of them, there is ample time for a cheque to travel from any part of Australia to another and return again in less than six months. When I first suggested a period of six months, I considered also the possibility of a cheque drawn in Australia being sent to some other part of the British Empire. After making inquiries, I think that six months would be ample even for that. I also inquired from many of the leading bankers both here and in another State, and found it was their unanimous and express desire that a period of six months should be enacted. Therefore, six months is long enough from the banker’s point of view, while it is in the interests of the public that their cheques should not be out for more than six months.

Senator Sayers:

– A man might lose a. cheque.

Senator CLEMONS:

– Even then he would not lose his right to recover the debt. In making a cheque stale, we do not interfere with any rights as between plaintiff and defendant in a case. If we did, the same argument would apply to a period of twelve months.

Senator Sayers:

– We do not want people to have to go to law over it.

Senator CLEMONS:

– The honorable senator is quite willing to make a cheque stale and of no value at the end of twelve months. The question of going to law is no more involved if the period is made six months. The whole question is the convenience of the public. Any honorable senator would much prefer after he had drawn a cheque to know that it must be presented within six months, and not be held over for twelve ‘months. A man may ‘ draw a cheque and may wish to leave Australia for England “before twelve months have elapsed. He would naturally want to have his account cleared, and would consider it somewhat objectionable to leave an open account for twelve’ months. It is difficult on the spur of the moment to bring forward definite arguments about an arbitrary matter of this kind, but I have come to the conclusion that six months would be ample for all purposes of interchange in the Commonwealth, and even for interchange between the Commonwealth and other parts of the Empire. We shall be consulting the interests of public and bankers alike if we reduce the term. I move -

That the word “ twelve “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ six.”

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON (South Australia) [3.42]. - I think there has been’ some misconception in the framing of this provision, because as the sub-clause now stands it gives statutory power to a banker to_ dishonour anybody’s cheque after a certain interval.’ That is a position in which I do not think we should put a banker. A cheque, like a bill of exchange, wilh certain differences, must be presented within a reasonable time to make the drawer liable.

But it is a very different thing to say that a banker shall be at liberty to dishonour a cheque which perhaps the drawer may wish to see paid. Under this sub-clause a banker is given power to dishonour a customer’s cheque, and that is a very unpleasant thing. A customer may always protect himself if the reasonable time does not give him the protection, by stopping his cheque.

Senator Millen:

– I do not think that any bank ought to be allowed to dishonour a cheque.

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

– That is so. The stopping of a cheque does not mean that the drawer thereby relieves himself from liability to pay the debt it represents, but it interposes an obstacle to the immediate payment, and requires that it -shall be referred to the drawer. It should not be left to the banker to dishonour a cheque if he pleases, but, after a certain time, whether three, six, or twelve months, the cheque should be made no longer a negotiable instrument. Probably the longer the time fixed the better. I do not at this moment see any ad vantage to be gained by shortening the period to six months. Certainly if the period is made six months, we shall hasten the time when the banker may dishonour a cheque which it may be desirable that he -should pay. The clause requires amendment at least in the direction suggested by Senator Millen.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– I think that every argument which we have heard upon the clause this afternoon was brought forward when the subject was discussed last week. The clause as it stands is the result of a compromise as between the interests of the drawer of the cheque, the holder, and the bank. The argument which weighed chiefly with the Committee in making the term twelve months was that cheques are a form of currency in the remoter parts of Australia, especially in Queensland. Western Australia, and the Northern Territory. Senator Clemons was not here when we had the long discussion on the clause, but he may take it from me that every possible interest was considered.

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

– I desire to withdraw my amendment, as the majority of the Committee seems to be in favour of the twelve months period. The term is arbitrary, but if the majority approves of it I shall not object.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Senator CLEMONS (Tasmania) [3.493. - I move -

That all the words after the word “payable” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ all liability upon such cheque shall cease.”

In England bankers, it seems, are bound by usage to exercise caution in paying cheques which are presented a long time after they are drawn. Such cheques are called stale. It would appear that if a banker pay a stale cheque, he does so at his own risk, and that if he pay it to a wrongful holder he cannot charge the drawer wilh its amount. He is, it is said, bound to make inquiries ; and payment without inquiries or a reference to the drawer would be irregular, and out of the usual course of business.

Notwithstanding the fact that, according to the law, the drawer of a cheque is still liable on the cheque for a period of six years, what is the period which will render a cheque stale in England is very much less than it is here. Hamilton goes on to say -

The Bills of Exchange Act 1882 provides that a bill payable on demand is deemed to be overdue within the meaning of the section relating to the negotiation of overdue bills, when it appears on the face of it to have been in circulation for an unreasonable length of time. What amounts to an unreasonable length of time for this purpose is a question of fact. In determining whether the time is reasonable or not, the nature of the instrument, the facts of the particular case, and the usage and trade of bankers must all be considered.

Then, as illustrating what is a reasonable time in Great Britain, where, of course, banking transactions and the drawing of cheques are confined more to certain classes of the community than is the case in Australia, Hamilton says -

A cheque negotiated eight days after date was held not to be on the footing of an overdue bill, and the same was held with respect to a cheque given to the plaintiff seventeen days after its date ; but a cheque taken two months after date has been considered stale. A person who takes a stale cheque takes it at his peril. In Australia, however, cheques seem to be regarded by many bankers as continuing authorities to pay to which a banker may conform without inquiry. They are rarely, it is believed, treated as stale, nor, as a rule, is payment of them refused on the ground that a long time has elapsed since they were drawn, unless the drawer’s liability to pay has been discharged by the operation of the Statute .of Limitations.

– It said-

In determining what is a reasonable time regard shall be had to the ‘nature of the instrument, the usage of trade and of bankers, and the facts of the particular case. -We ought to be very jealous of the credit of the man who gives a cheque and has money in the bank to meet it. If payment of a cheque is refused under any pretence it injures the credit of the drawer. The money belongs to the depositor, and not to the bank, and he has a right to say when his cheque ought to be paid. If any question arises, undoubtedly the bank ought to refer to the drawer. I prefer the period to be fixed at twelve months- rather than at six months ; but after what Senator Symon has said, I think that it would be better to omit the sub-clause!

Senator WALKER:
New South Wales

– I am rather surprised at the fact not being recognised more generally that the banks take this course for the benefit of their constituents. Suppose that a stale cheque drawn by A,’B, and Company in the same town came into a bank. The bank would telephone to the drawer, or send a message round to him before returning his cheque as stale. -Has it occurred to honorable senators that, owing to a cheque having been out for a long time, a duplicate cheque may have been issued by the drawer? It has never injured a person’s credit to have a cheque come back marked as “stale,” because that word has a distinct meaning.

Senator Macfarlane:

– It is never used.

Senator WALKER:

– I am glad that my honorable friend has never had occasion to use it. In some cases it is a very awkward thing for a bank to pay an old cheque. The drawer may say at once to the bank, “ Surely owing to its old date you might have sent the cheque back to me. Some time ago I issued a duplicate of that cheque.” I hope that the subclause will be retained as it stands.

Amendment negatived.

Sub-clause agreed to.

Clause 100 -

Where a dishonoured bill or note is authorized or required to be protested, any householder or substantial resident of the place may, in the presence of two witnesses, give a certificate, signed by them, attesting the dishonour of the bill, and the certificate shall in all respects operate as if it were a formal protest of the bill.
The form given in the Second Schedule may be used with necessary modifications, and if used shall be sufficient.

Senator KEATING:
.Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– I move -

That after the word “ protested,” line 2, the following words be inserted : - “ and the services of a notary cannot be obtained at the place where the bill is dishonoured.”

The amendment, if carried, will restore the clause to its original form. The honorable senator, at whose instance those words were left out, advanced the view that the Bill as it stood made provision for work for solicitors and notaries. I pointed out then, and do so again, that the only case in which a notary would be required for protesting the dishonour of a bill would be that of a British or other bill from outside the Commonwealth which was dishonoured here. As the clause now stands, it provides that any householder or substantial resident of the place may in the presence of two witnesses ‘ give ai certificate attesting the dishonour of the bill, and that might be rather a dangerous condition in which to leave the law. Bills of exchange entering the Commonwealth from abroad may be dishonoured here, and somebody, relying upon that provision, might endeavour to get from a householder a certificate of dishonour. The householder, unaccustomed to doing anything of the kind, as he very likely would be, might issue the certificate in such a form that it would be of very little use.

Senator Givens:

– How could he when he is supplied with the form in the Act?

Senator KEATING:

– Notwithstanding the most strenuous efforts of Parliament from time to time to provide simple forms to be used by the public, we often find some reputedly intelligent members of the public making very serious blunders in using them. A notary is an officer who attests documents in one country for use in another. Throughout the other parts of the British Empire, as well as in foreign countries, it is the custom for notaries to attest certain documents which are to go outside that country into another. The attestation by a notary public is in such cases accepted abroad straight away, so to speak. The Courts of a foreign country will often take judicial notice of it. On the other hand if a document attested by a witness who is not an official is presented, the Courts of a foreign country cannot take judicial notice of it, but are compelled to seek other evidence.

Senator Givens:

– They will take it if it is legally protested, just as they will in a case where a notary is not available.

Senator KEATING:

– I do not think they will. We provide that where the services of a notary are not available it shall be competent for a householder or substantial resident to issue a certificate. In that case, however, it would be set forth that the services of a notary were not obtainable. -Most of these bills will be dealt with by business men, who in ordinary circumstances would avail themselves of a notary’s services. Other persons into whose hands the bills might come, and who were not accustomed to notaries, might endeavour to rely upon the provision as it stands, and find that they had “ fallen in.” Phillimore, in his International Law, speaks thus of the office of a notary -

The chief organ of the Voluntary jurisdiction is the Notary Public, who is, in fact, a kind of international officer, to the testimony of whose acts all civilised States give credit - an officer less known and more restricted in his powers in England than on the Continent, but iri England also a well-recognised and important functionary.

In all civilized States throughout the world a protest of dishonour made by a notary is regarded as effective. Therefore, the supposed advantage to be gained by the amendment previously made in this clause, or the supposed detriment imposed upon notaries, does not balance the disadvantage caused by the establishment of an unsettled system of law, which will not harmonise with the law in other parts of the Empire, and in foreign countries. I ask the mover of the original amendment to recognise the advisableness of restoring the clause to its old form. In the Encyclopedia of the Lams of England, vol. 9, appears a somewhat lengthy article on the notary, in which it is stated - “ The general functions of a notary consist in receiving all acts and contracts which must, or are wished to, be clothed with an authentic form; in conferring on. such acts the required authenticity ; in establishing their date ; in preserving originals or minutes of them, which, when prepared in the style and with the seal of the notary, obtain the name of original acts, and in giving authentic copies of such acts.” The office of a notary is thus described by the only English text-writer upon the subject (Brooke, 3rd edition, page 12), but the description more accurately applies abroad than in England. By commercial usage, now embodied in the law, the intervention of a notary is in some cases necessary, and in others advantageous, in the proceedings consequent upon the dishonor of a bill of exchange.

Senator Givens:

– It says that his services are necessary only in some cases.

Senator KEATING:

– They are necessary in “the case of foreign bills. There is ho necessity to invoke them in connexion with the dishonour of an inland bill of exchange in the Commonwealth, nor does the Bill make any such provision. It did propose to make it necessary to obtain the services of a notary, wherever available, in connexion with foreign bills of exchange dishonoured in, the Commonwealth. No doubt it would be advantageous in connexion with al! bills, but it is only necessary, and we only propose to make it so, in connexion with foreign bills. Further on the article says -

It is the duty of a notary to keep a record of the transactions in which he is employed. The protesting and noting of bills of exchange, for instance, ought to be entered in his notingbook

So that, apart altogether from the actual value of the notarial attestation in a foreign country, the duty and practice of a notary is to” keep records and minutes of transactions of the kind-. Consequently, there is in the country itself a record of the transactions, although the original papers may have gone abroad. It has been suggested that “ notary “ is practically a synonym for “ lawyer.” It is not so. A great number of lawyers are not notaries, and there are many notaries who are not lawyers at all. Further on in the .article in the Encyclopedia of the Laws of England, the following appears -

Admission to act as a notary is governed by the Acts 41, George III., c. 74; 3 and 4 William IV., c. 70; and 6 and 7 Victoria, c. 90. The appointment of notaries is by the Archbishop of Canterbury, through the Master of the Court of Faculties.

Senator Keating:

– I said that the greater number of foreign bills of exchange - the only bills to which this would apply - would Be handled by business people.

Senator TURLEY:

– That is so. They would be handled almost entirely by people engaged in business transactions between

Australia and the outside world. That is one of the best reasons which could be offered for refusing to reinsert the words which the Committee previously decided to leave out. These business men are men. of intelligence, and know exactly what they are doing. They could render this service one to another, and there is no reason, why they should not do so. It is not proposed that they should go to any one outside indiscriminately, and they would know that they would be protecting their own interests in making use of each other for the protesting of bills of exchange. I see no reason why we should continue to uphold a system by which this class of work is left to persons who may have had somewhat similar duties to perform as church officials under a custom and practice established over a thousand years ago. The Minister of Home Affairs has himself shown that it is not absolutely necessary that the protesting of bills of exchange should be done by notaries public, since the Bill, as presented, made provision for the performance of the work by a householder or substantial resident if a notary were not available. There is no reason in the world, so far as I can see, why business men in places like Melbourne, Brisbane, Sydney, and Adelaide should do this work for each other’. At present they have to go to a notary, but if they were relieved of this method of doing business no one can believe that any inconvenience would be caused.

Question - That the words proposed to be inserted, be inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Second Schedule.

Senator KEATING (Tasmania) Uo2]- - I asked that this schedule be recommitted because I intended to move an amendment on it, consequential on the amendment just negatived, but as I see that the opinion of the Committee is unchanged, and that certain honorable senators whom I had expected to see voting on this side were not present during division, I shall not submit the amendment.

Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported without further amendment; report adopted.

page 2419

BOUNTIES BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 23rd August (vide page 231 1 ), on motion by Senator Keating -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Upon which Senator McColl’ had moved, by way of amendment -

That all the words after the word “ That “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “in the opinion of this Senate the development of agriculture will be better attained by a carefully organized system of agricultural education and scientific experiment than by the giving of bounties; and that proposals for such « system be formulated and submitted for consideration, and this Bill, or so much of it as relates to agriculture, De held over until such is done, and that the same be communicated to the House of Representatives.”

Senator GRAY:

– That is intense cultivation, and the 12,000,000 acres under crop in Australia includes the area devoted to wheat growing. It is almost impossible, I think, to grasp the importance of those figures and the lessons which they ought to convey to legislators. I propose to refer as concisely as possible to the surroundings connected with the different industries in respect of which we are asked to sanction bounties. Take, for instance, high-grade tobacco. In their report, the experts say -

As there appears to be a good opening in Australia for the production of the higher grade qualities of tobacco, the members of the Conference gave this matter careful attention.

Industrial conditions in the Commonwealth seems to indicate the wisdom of encouraging the production ofthe various raw materials in their most valuable form. Some of the best qualities of leaf have a value as high as 5s. per lb., while over 20 years ago some Northern Territory tobacco sold by auction at Hamburg at the rate of 2s.11d. per lb. Against this we have the fact that the tobacco at present being produced in the Commonwealth has a merchantable value of only about 4d. to 6d. per lb.

The importations into the Commonwealth are already very heavy, the items being as under : -

As tobacco can successfully be produced in all the States, there should be no justification for these large importations, which are made in the face of a heavy Customs impost.

The following fact is of interest : - In1902 Cuba exported 29,800,000 lbs. of tobacco, worth 12½ million dollars, or an average of1s.9d. per lb. This is the kind of tobacco Australia wants to grow.

The Conference, therefore, recommends that a bonus of 2d. per lb. be given for the production of tobacco bringing10d. per lb. and upwards.

From the report of the Tobacco Commission and another report, I intend to give a few illustrations which I think will throw considerable doubt upon the accuracy of those statements. Writing yesterday, Mr. Shaw, managing director of the British Australasian Tobacco Company Proprietary Limited, said -

We have not the tobacco to make cigars here, as it requires a special leaf, and we have been experimenting for years.At the present time experts have patches here and. there in different parts of the State, but it is a slow process. When the American leaf is put in here it grows a different tobacco, and consequently it means years of experimenting. The same with the ordinary leaf.

I shall now give the evidence submitted before the Tariff Commission as shortly and concisely as I can. I want to show that, so far as we can see, tobacco has been successfully grown here, but for some reason the production has fallen completely away, as was proved by the evidence placed before the Commission. I find the following on page 14 of the Commission’s report -

Those figures show the immense advance made by the imported leaf as against the locally grown, although as a matter of fact, the manufacturers would be able to pay double the difference between the two tobaccoes in favour of the Australian leaf, because of the increased profit that they would naturally get. I take the following from the evidence of Mr. Jacobs, on page 71-

The duty on the imported leaf is1s. 6d. per lb., and the average price of making is10d. per lb., making a total of 2s. 4d. per lb. The price for local leaf is from 4d. to 6d. per lb. ; nevertheless, the bulk of consumption is imported leaf, because it pays better. If equally good Australian leaf were obtainable it would pay the manufacturers to give 2s. per lb. and save money. This is the reason why manufacturers are bound to spend money improving local production.

As a matter of fact. Dixson’s have spent £30,000 in experimenting, with the object of getting the very tobacco for the production of which this Bill offers a bonus, but practically without success.

Senator McGregor:

– Where did they spend it?

Senator GRAY:

– In many directions. They had a farm at Wagga, over which they lost , £10,000. On page 120, the following appears in the report of the evidence of Mr. Peter Thompson - 1598. Would it not be to the interests of the Government to encourage the use of local as against imported tobacco ?- They would have to produce an article suited to the taste of the consumers. That would not be in the Government’s hands. Eighty per cent. of the smokers in the community will use American tobacco ‘in preference to Australian.

The next witness I shall quote is Mr. J. J. Schuh. Senator Pearce will agree with me that he was one of the ablest witnesses before the Commission. The following appears in the report of his evidence - 1216. In the manufacture of your cigars do you use any Australian tobacco? - No. 121 7. Why is it not used? - Because we do not consider it suitable. Its combustion is not satisfactory by any means.

I come now to Mr. Currin, who was imported by Messrs. Dixson at considerable expense, to give the benefit of his advice to the tobacco-growers. On page 151 he is’ reported as giving the following evidence - 2637. Is the Australian leaf, in your opinion, inferior to the American? - Yes, it is lacking in natural aroma and flavour.

The next witness is Mr. W. S. Campbell, Director of Agriculture, New South Wales -

It seems to me that if our people would only take up the growing of tobacco there would be no necessity for imported leaf at all. Of course, the flavour is not, and probably would never be, the same as that of the American tobacco.

Mr. Thomas Davis, of the New York and Brooklyn Tobacco Manufacturing Company states, on page 195 - 3905. You buy the Australian leaf at an average of 6d. per lb. ? - Yes, that is a three months’ average. 3906. And you pay 2s. 4½d. for the imported leaf? - Yes; that is, inclusive of1s. 6d. duty. 3907. If the colonial leaf were as popular, or equal ‘in quality, to the imported leaf, would it pay you better to use more of it? - Yes, certainly ; but it is not. 3908. It is not equal in quality? - No. 3909. Is it a matter of public taste, or is there something radically deficient in the quality of Australian leaf ? - Both. The highest grade of Australian-grown tobacco leaf is not nearly of so good quality or flavour as the imported leaf. 3910. Do you know whether that arises from the cultivation or manipulation, or what do you think is the reason for the difference? - I should say, first of all, that it largely arises from the cultivation. It also arises from climatic conditions, and, personally, I am inclined to think that the soil has something to do with it. I have had an experiment made in our factory with the highest grade leaf grown in the State, and the result was very unsatisfactory. 3911. By Senator Story. - Was that quite recently? - Yes; I could put it on this table. I tried to smoke it, and could not. There is something peculiar about Australian leaf that is absent from the American. I am not sufficiently an expert to determine what it is. With all due deference to the opinions of others, I do not think we shall ever be able to grow in Australia the high-grade tobacco leaf that is grown in America. 3912. You think, then, there is a substantial difference in the quality? - I do.

Mr. Hugh R. Dixson gave the following evidence - 4394. Your associated companies have taken some interest in endeavouring to improve the quality of Australian-grown leaf? - Undoubtedly. I have done so personally in the old company I was attached to. Dixson Tobacco Company must have lost between , £20,000 and £30,000 over it.

I shall take now Mr. William Cameron, one of the principal manufacturers in Victoria - 5402. I presume you have a knowledge of the various kinds of tobacco leaf? - I think so. 5403. Have you compared American leaf with Australian-grown leaf? - I have. 5404. Can you state shortly to the Committee what are the differences between Australian and American leaf? - That is a very difficult question to answer. The Australian-grown leaf is a rank leaf. It is lacking in aroma, and it is not cured as it ought to be. The rankness is not overcome in the curing. The quality of leaf is such that it does not give the same aroma or taste to the smoker as the American tobacco does. 5405.To what do you attribute that? - I do not think it can be overcome. It may be due to the very heavy land on which it is grown. 5406. Do you think it is due to the curing or the growing? - I think partly to the curing, although I am not now speaking as an expert. I am merely expressing my private opinion. I should say that it is partly due to the heavy soil and partly to the way the tobacco is cured ; and then there are climatic conditions which we have not yet succeeded in overcoming in Australia. It is a question whether we shall ever overcome them.

I next come to the evidence of Mr. Smith, tobacconist, of Adelaide, and I find the following -

In your opinion, if the Australian grower produced an article equal to the American leaf he should get a much better price for it than he does? - Undoubtedly he should.

It would pay a manufacturer to buy a locallygrown tobacco rather than the imported? - Yes, if the quality were the same.

How do you account for the deterioration in the quality of tobacco? - Simply because Australian leaf is mixed with the American.

I find these statements in the evidence given by Mr. Solomon Levy, who is a cigar manufacturer -

The witness referred to was a cigarmaker in Adelaide, and in giving evidence before the Tariff Commission said that two cigars made of Australian leaf would kill an elephant. Have you heard of that? - I read it in the newspapers.

Would you be surprised to learn that the witness since then has smoked two cigars of Australian leaf and is still alive?-I have done it myself, and I am still alive. There is, of course, some leaf better than others, although Australian grown. Still, there is a certain “ twang “ about it that you cannot take away no matter how it is steamed or treated.

I next take the following from the evidence given by Mr. Neville, Instructor of Tobacco Culture of the Queensland Agricultural Bureau.

– Because in the Islands the cost of labour is considerably lower than in Australia. Now, I wish’ to refer to an item upon which the experts are emphatic in their recommendation. They say with regard to jute -

It was’ the unanimous opinion of the Conference that the cultivation of certain fibres is worthy of the most generous encouragement. Prominence was given to the matter of jute production. As the raw material of which bags are made, the question of jute supply vitally affects most producing interests in the Commonwealth. The recent heavy increase in the price of all bags and sacks has caused some disquietude amongst farmers, who are naturally concerned when they find the price of the bag holding their wheat equal to an impost of 2d. per bushel.

It is known that jute will grow readily all over the moister portions of Northern Australia. Being an annual, a crop can be raised within a few months of the planting of the seed.

In 1904-5 India had 2,845,000 acres under jute, the crop being 7,450,000 bales, an average of about half-a-ton of fibre per acre. The price to-day per ton is £26 10s. c.i.f., so on these figures the industries should have a future in Australia. The importation of jute manufactures into the Commonwealth is considerable, approximating One million pounds worth a year, and the amount is likely to increase.

The experts go on to refer to an article published in the Town and Country Journal in Sydney to prove the advantage of growing jute in Australia. The article stated -

Woolpacks arc dearer in Sydney than for the past twenty years. New packs, this season’s importations, weighing n£ lbs., in bales of 50 packs, loose or fast lid, are 3s. each to-day in Sydney, as compared with is. gd. six years ago. An extra 3d. each pack is paid, if the bales are broken. Packs shipped from ‘Calcutta at the end df last season are to-day in Sydney 2s. iod. each. These high rates affect the squatters and sheep breeders generally. A great many more woolpacks are used now than formerly, owing to the increase in the New South Wales clip. It is estimated that there are ten million more sheep in New South Wales than three years ago. There is also a greatly increased demand for jute for the United States and other parts of the world. Jute is nowadays used for a large additional number of purposes as compared with a few years back.

Since the article referred to was written, sacks, which were 8s. 6d. per dozen, have gone down to 5s. 6d., but more recently, owing to the loss of a large cargo, the price has gone up again to 6s. 6d. The fact is that there is no article with regard to which the tendencies are so speculative as jute in its manufactured condition. Theexperts have, unfortunately, left us to place our own interpretation upon the most vital figure in their estimate. They put down the price of jute at about ^25 per ton. They estimate the cost of cultivation in Calcutta and India to be 52s. per acre. Since this estimate was published, I believe that the price has gone down to £20 per ton. But the experts also say that the price per ton to-day i§ £26 10s. .c.i.f., and that there is a large future for the growth of jute in Australia. I venture to object absolutely to a boom price being fixed upon for such products, in order to encourage people to embark upon their growth. I object to encouraging men and women to invest their money in a business upon speculative values, which have really no practical relation to ordinary prices. What does it mean when it is said that the cost of cultivation is 52s. per acre? It means that, practically, the whole cost is spent upon labour; and what does labour cost in India? The maximum wage for a man there is 4d. per day, and there are women and “children employed in the industry who on an average are paid from one- half -penny to three farthings per day. If, then, it costs 52s. per acre to cultivate jute in India, what would it be likely to cost to produce such a crop in Australia? I venture to say that it would not realize a profit, but would show a very serious loss indeed. I think that the gentlemen who drew up this report have been very negligent indeed in making such a statement as they have done, and in not giving us any idea as to” ‘the relation between the cost of production in the countries to which they refer and the probable cost in Australia. How can we, as business men, induce the people of Australia who have money to invest to embark- in such ail industry upon such a statement, as is placed before us in this report? I am not saying whether this industry is in itself one that could be successfully grafted on to other industries in this country. But I object to being asked to vote, for a bounty for the encouragement of any industry until I know exactly what the conditions are. I want to know all the details which are essential to enable me to form a judgment as to what the probable results will be. I know a Sydney manufacturer of bags’ who has suffered a considerable loss in consequence of the action of the Government. He complains that, whilst the Government have placed a duty on jute, they have allowed bags to come in free. The consequence has been that this manufacturer, who employed fifty hands, and has purchased machinery to enable him to carry on his business, finds that he cannot conduct it profitably. He informs me that one of his customers, with whom he had a contract last year, has asked him to renew that contract in ten days. He is placed in this position - that if he cannot enter into the contract on the same terms as before, bags from Calcutta will be used.

Senator Macfarlane:

– Is the honorable senator referring to hessian bags?

Senator GRAY:

– I am referring to cement bags. This manufacturer came to me in a very sad state about what the Government has done. Next I wish- to refer to rubber. The report of the experts says -

The cultivation of the rubber tree in some of our tropical areas calls for attention. Owing to the steady and increasing demand for rubber that prevails throughout the world, rubber producing trees are being planted in large quantities in all tropical countries.

That this valuable tree will thrive in our northern latitudes is well known, although it is more than probable that New Guinea will prove a better home for it. Many exaggerated statements as to the profits to be made from newlybearing rubber plantations have from time to time appeared. There is no reason, however, to doubt the payable results won from the plantations when the trees have reached an age at which they may be tapped.

Lest it should be overlooked, let me mention here, in regard to copra, that it is most unwise and most unprofitable to plant anything between cocoanut trees while they are growing. The trees demand exactly the same care as do the trees in a first-class orchard. If a man is not careful, he may not get his cocoanut trees to bear until two or three years after the usual bearing time, and the crop of nuts which he will get will be decreased very materially. Modern planters use the plough, and adopt every possible means to strengthen the trees by securing to them all the nutriment they can obtain from the soil.

Senator Lynch:

– The trees bear in six years from seed.

Senator GRAY:

– The trees bear in six years if they are properly cultivated, but not otherwise. Reverting to rubber, the experts go on to say -

The heavy expenses incidental to the initiation of a plantation, and the long period that elapses before any returns can be expected, are the main drawbacks to the industry. The idea of catch crops being possible in the meantime is, in our opinion, misleading. It is also to be remembered that the chemists of the world are actively in search of a’ synthetic substitute. In this connexion, it is well to bear in mind how the German chemists ruined the indigo industry of India.

At the present time, a synthetic substitute for rubber is claimed to have been discovered in the form of some preparation of wheat, which successfully admits of vulcanization, in which essential qualification other would-be-rubber substitutes have so far failed. In addition to the long delay that must be experienced before the rubber-planter can obtain any return for his heavy expenditure, there is always the possibility that the research chemist may evolve in his laboratory some substance that may render of little or no value, the planter’s costly undertaking. In spite of all these considerations, the members of the Conference, haying regard to the general importance of the industry, and the necessity of securing settlement in the tropical parts of Australia, agreed to recommend a bonus of 10 per cent, for ten years.

Senator McGregor:

– Would it not be a terrible thing if a chemist were to discover a substitute for bread? What would the farmers do .then ? .

Senator GRAY:

– I ask the honorable senator, as a sensible man, whether, in the face of the report from the .experts, he would engage in the rubber-growing industry in Australia ? Whether the conditions which apply to the production of copra do not also apply to the production of rubber ? Am I to understand that he thinks that it will be wise for the Commonwealth to spend thousands of pounds in encouraging a speculative industry’? Does he believe that he will be acting rightly in encouraging men to devote the best years of their lives in developing a speculative industry, with the knowledge that the risks, both as to the price and as to the article itself, under local conditions, will be very great indeed ?

Senator McGregor:

– The honorable senator might just as well say that a man ought not to plant trees because he might die before he could expect to get a return from his labour.

Senator GRAY:

– I see no parallel. “I am speaking from a business stand-point, and, both as a business man and as a trustee for the people, I decline to allow their money to be used in encouraging the development of industries which I believe do not offer any fair prospect of being successful. The next item I propose to deal with is rice. In a very able article which he wrote, Mr. J. C. Watson said that when going up one of the rivers in the Northern Territory he found along its banks a swamp averaging five miles wide’ which would be suitable for the growth of rice. . He forgot, however, to mention the class of labour he was going to place on the five-mile marsh to grow rice and reap it. That is a very important consideration, I think. Referring to rice, the experts say -

The importations of rice into the Commonwealth are sufficiently large, and its value as a food product is so well established that the encouragement of its production in Australia is much to be desired. It is, however, a product which is principally raised in Asiatic lands, and the following conditions are necessary for its successful cultivation. The best varieties of rice are grown in swamps or level irrigated ground, and the initial stages of its cultivation are carried out while the land is entirely under water. Rice is also grown largely in the swamps of Southern United States - Carolina in particular - and is partially worked with white labour. A good quality of rice is also produced by white labour in Northern Italy. Coming nearer home, in the Northern Territory, near Port Darwin, Messrs. Kloppenburg and Erickson, with the help of aboriginals, some 25 years ago, harvested 8 tons of uncleaned rice - swamp variety - from 5 acres of land, which represents a gross return of about £20 per acre. This may be regarded as a very satisfactory yield.

According -to the Paris Journal d’ Agriculture

Tropicale, for January, 1906, a population of 5,000,000 people in Cochin China annually cultivate 3,600,000 acres of rice, and Saigon alone exports annually about half a million tons.

Upland or hill rice, which, as its name implies, grows on dry land, is perhaps more within the scope of Australian producers. As far as climate and soil are concerned, there is no reason why it should not be extensively cultivated in Australia. It is produced, for instance, on a large scale in Manchuria, where, although its summers are warm, the winter is much colder than ours.

It is possible that both varieties of rice may be harvested by the stripper, in the same vijay as wheat or oats.

That is very rarely done.

There appears to be no reason why they should not be sown by the seed-drill on irrigable land. It will be seen, therefore, that the cultivation of rice opens up an entirely new field. It is open to doubt if it can be successfully exploited under Australian conditions. The industry, however, is sufficiently important to deserve encouragement, and the Conference recommends a Bonus on uncleaned rice at the rate of 20s. per ton, . for a term of 5 years.

Senator Dobson:

– All their conclusions are contradicted by the evidence.

Senator GRAY:

– Although we cannot spare the means to meet absolute requirements ‘ for the defence of Australia and for other purposes, yet we are asked by the’ Government to use public money in encouraging the development of an industry which is essentially an Asiatic industry. We are asked by the Government to take that step for no other reason, so far as I can perceive, than to play upon the imagination of the people, and to pursue a will-o’ - the-wisp, with the hope that their expectations may be realized. In their report the experts damn each proposed bounty withfaint praise. They ought to have damned the bounties more emphatically than they did. I how come to the item of cotton, which, I admit, has been grown here. Concerning that item there is some wonderful evidence which it is very difficult to bringinto harmony. . The experts say -

After considerable discussion the Conference recognised that the cotton industry is deserving of encouragement. At the same time the members agree that the prospects of the industry inAustralia are not specially promising.

Can we imagine any one, after inviting the assistance of experts, submitting their evidence and asking us, as level-headed men, who have been placed here to safeguard the interests of the Commonwealth,, to utilize the public money in an effort to establish the cotton industry? From what I know of the cotton industry, I think it is unfair to offer a bounty upon the production of the article. I believe that it can be grown in Australia profitably without the aid of a bounty. In 1904 Mr. A. J. Boyd, F.R.G.S., Queensland, editor of The Queensland Agricultural Journal, published a pamphlet entitled “ Cotton Cultivation in Queensland.” I proposeto quote his estimate of the value of cotton. If it be true, the marvel is that every farmer in Queensland does not rushinto the cotton industry. Let us see how much a farmer can realize from 10 acres of cotton by selling his crop at 2d. per lb. After giving details of the cost of producing an acre of cotton, Mr. Boyd setsout the return as follows -

An industry in which aman with 500 acres can make a net profit of£5 os. 4d. per acre, after paying all expenses, certainly does not require a bounty to assist it, but I assume that the experts had other evidence besides that of this gentleman, who I suppose can be classed as an expert, seeing that he is the editor of the Queensland Agricultural Journal. He gives an estimate to show the effect of ginning on the returns per acre, in this way -

Undoubtedly, a1,000-lb. crop at1½d. would pay him better than the above-mentioned cropsPicking being confined to his own family, his expenses are only £1 4s. 8d. per acre, and his return £6 5s., leaving a credit balance of £5 os. 4d. It may happen that the grower decides on having his cotton ginned. In this case he will pay £1 os.10d. per 1,000 lb. for ginning at1/4d. per lb., but he gets back the seed as well as the lint; 600 lb. of seed at £4 10s. per ton is worth £1 4s.1d., or 3s. 3d. more than the cost of ginning. In the United States, the ginning establishments will clean, the farmer’s cotton, taking the seed in payment. How does ginning affect the returns per acre?

In this case, the net profit by ginning would reach £6 16s.11d. per acre, as against£5 os. 4d. if the crop was sold in the seed. If those estimates are at all within reason there can be no possible justification for giving a bounty to such an industry, which yields double the profit to be gained from any cereal crop throughout Australia. I come now to the question of coffee. The experts report as follows -

While a very general feeling prevailed that coffee planting was not likely - at any rate in the near future - to become an important Australian industry, Conference is of opinion that steps should be taken to encourage it.

It is undeniable that coffee of a good quality can be produced over large areas of the tropical and sub-tropical portions of the continent. The returns, however, from the plantations, are not at all alluring, while the consumption of coffee by the people of the Commonwealth is on a very slender scale. The experience of the chief coffee-producing countries of the world - and these are countries where an abundant supply of cheap labour is obtainable - does not afford much hope for the extensive and successful exploitation of the industry under Australian conditions.

That is not very favorable -

In Brazil, for instance, sufficient coffee is produced to meet the requirements of the whole world, the figures being as under : -

It is generally understood that a large proportion of the crop was destroyed, so as to keep the production within the consumption -

It is also an ominous fact that, according to the Trofeifpflamer - a recognised authority on all tropical matters - the planters of Brazil have not only destroyed large quantities of coffee berry because of the low prices prevailing, but have also pulled up the bushes growing on large areas of coffee plantation, and are using the land for other purposes.

The records available of Australia experience in coffee-growing are by no means encouraging. In the year 1903 there were 318 acres under coffee in Queensland, the total yield being 83,632 lbs. Valuing this at9d. per lb. - which is allowed to be a fair average price - the return would not be more than£10 per acre. Considering the labour involved in clearing and preparing the land, in picking and cleaning for market, and bearing in mind the fact that the plantation does not become productive until it is four years old, this return appears totally inadequate.

With all these disadvantages, the fact remains that coffee of a good type can be produced over large portions of Northern Australia, and accordingly a bonus of1d. per poundfor eight years is recommended.

I condemn this proposal with all the force at my command. The recommendation of the experts is absolutely inconsistent. Ex-Senator Staniforth Smith, in his report on Papua, Malay, and Java, states that coffee was planted there in considerable quantities, but that the result was absolute failure as regards its being a profitable industry. It has therefore been discontinued. I take it that the two most important questionsbefore us within the near future are the development of our lands and the provision of naval defence. I intend to show shortly how our lands can be developed, and how this money, which it is proposed by this Bill to spend upon what I may call speculative industries, could be safely invested for the benefit of the whole of the people in that direction. In the second place, if the money was spent in encouraging shipbuilders by means of a subsidy for torpedo boats, submarines, or gun-boats, it would be infinitely better spent. We all recognise that for many years to come we shall be dependent upon the old country for our means of defence. But I think the time has arrived when this young Commonwealth should initiate a policy by . which in a small way we can show the mother country that we are doing all that lies in our power to help to defend ourselves, so that we may be able to stave off the dangers that are around us, and that at any moment we may have to grapple with. The man who inaugurates an industry such as the building of torpedo boats, gunboats, and submarines will have to face a very heavy initial expense. He must obtain models and engage experts of experience from the old country, who will command large salaries. If we undertook to encourage an industry of that sort we should be acting well within our powers. It would be money well spent in the interests of the whole of the Commonwealth, arid not in partial or restricted areas, as will be the case under this Bill.’ I shall refer now to what I consider the crux of the whole question of agricultural production. I wish to thank Senator McColl for the very able speech which he delivered, and for the valuable facts and figures which “he placed before us, and which he must have been at considerable pains to obtain,’ in order to show the value that Australia would derive from the establishment of a Commonwealth Agricultural Bureau. The investment of money in that direction would yield ten times as much as these bounties will ever return. I earnestly ask the Minister to give full consideration to Senator McColl’s speech. Does he not realize that this sum of ^412,000 if spent in creating a Commonwealth Agricultural Bureau would be a far sounder and -better investment than if it were dissipated in giving . small sums to create . or develop industries which, to say the least, are largely of an uncertain character? It is impossible to ignore ‘the great practical and developmental work that has followed the agricultural policy adopted in the United States, Canada, and Germany. Does not the Minister realize that the very industries selected in this Bill for initiation and development would have a greater probability of permanent success through the practical educational effect of the direction and guidance of experts? In America, experimental stations have been established in almost every State, and the highest professional expert knowledge is given to every inquirer in regard to suitability of lands, climate, and chemical1 adaptation of soils. I might refer to the good work that has already been done in some of the agricultural colleges in Australia. Mr. Potts, the head-master of the Hawkesbury College, New South Wales, has rendered! inestimable service to that State. One cannot fail to be struck, when visiting that institution, with the advantages which will be derived by the young men who are being educated there in every; phase of agricultural work. Practically every one of those young men goes back .to his own district from the college as a missionary or teacher. When I visited the college, Mr. Potts gave me practical illustrations of the results of his work. He told me of instance after instance of young men who had gone from the college, generally with very little means, but had almost invariably succeeded through applying to the cultivation of thesoil the technical knowledge they had gained of agricultural chemistry. As a matter of fact, practically every young man who leaves the Hawkesbury College is engaged almost immediately. Applications by the hundred are received for their services.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.4.5 p.m.

Senator GRAY:

– I wish to say a word or two of the work being done in Java. Java is about half the size of Victoria, and has a population of 61,000 whites and 28,000,000 natives. Whilst in Australia we have 12,000,000 acres under intense cultivation, there are 8,000,000 acres so cultivated in Java. This, to a large extent, is the work of Dr. Treub, who is recognised as one of the greatest living authorities on tropical agriculture. If” the Commonwealth could secure the services’ of Dr. Treub to take charge “of a Commonwealth Agricultural Bureau, the cost involved would be money well spent. The Honorable Staniforth Smith, who was well known and respected as a member of the Senate, makes the following statement in his report concerning Java -

A very large proportion of the surface of Java is covered with mountains, only portions of which are cultivable. In spite of this no less than one-quarter of the total area is actually under cultivation, while considerable areas are required for pasture. The agricultural land held by the natives has an area of 7,227,587 acres, of which only 163,591 acres are unplanted. The lands of Java can be divided into “ Sawah,’ or irrigated land, and “ Tagal,” or dry land. By far the largest proportion of the natives’ land consist of irrigated puddy-fields, as rice is the staple food.

Mr. Staniforth Smith gives an estimate of the crops grown, and the value of the exports, particulars of which I need not weary honorable senators with, and he goes on to say -

At the head of this little world of science is Dr. Treub, perhaps the greatest living authority on tropical agriculture - the master-mind who has brought all these research establishments and information bureaux into existence, and who has developed the botanical gardens to their present state of excellence.

I remind honorable senators that in Japan also there is a great movement going on for the extensive cultivation of the land. General Booth, in one’ of his reports, states -

There you have the small-holdings principle worked out wilh a vengeance. Tens of thousands of families obtain sufficient support from onefifth of the quantity of land that we are reckoning on for our scheme at Boxted. One of my staff personally inspected a small farm belonging to one of my soldiers - a peasant farmer outside Kobe - consisting of an acre and a quarter of land, from which he obtained a generous livelihood for himself and family, with something over for an old-age pension.

– I intended to apply that statement by saying that in the Commonwealth of Australia we do not lack good land, but the land we have is not put to its proper use. The work of the agricultural colleges in America, Canada, and Germany has been referred to by Senator MoColl. and I shall make some quotations to show the tremendous advantages which, may be derived from the teaching of agricultural colleagues by persons engaged ii* the cultivation of the soil. I propose to make a few quotations from a publication issued’ by the American Bureau of Agriculture. The first has reference to the principles governing the relationship of the Department of Agriculture with . the experimental stations, and at page 167 of the publication referred to I find the following -

Although the Act establishing, the agricultural! experiment stations made them practically independent of one another and of the Department of Agriculture, the relations of these two great agencies have in reality been very close. They have been drawn together by a common purpose, and as their work has progressed they have of tea found themselves in positions of mutual helpfulness and dependence. They have developed together. Together they have demonstrated the utility of agricultural investigation and shown its practical importance to the farmer and the horticulturist. They have laid the foundation, of a science of agriculture as a basis for teaching, and have won the confidence and appreciation of the general public to such an extent as. to make their continued development possible.

The period covered by the experiment station movement in this country has seen a great change in the Department of Agriculture, both in character and in material equipment. The Department has become in effect a great experiment station, with probably the largest personnel and the most liberal appropriations of any institution of its kind. Congress has year by year increased its appropriations for investigations independent of its administrative work, and its organization has steadily developed along the lines of a central experiment station. But it has lacked Some of the characteristics of an American station in its equipment and methods of work, and these differences, together with the wide distribution of the stations throughout the country, have made the reciprocal relations of the Department and the stations the more important.

Then at page 568, on the subject of agricultural colleges and their work, this statement is made -

College instruction in agriculture is given in the colleges and universities receiving the benefits’ of the Acts of Congress of 2nd July, 1S62, and 30th August, 1890, which are now in operation in all the States and Territories, except Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico. The total number of these institutions is 65, of which 63 maintain courses of instruction in agriculture. In 21 States the agricultural colleges are departments of the State universities. In 15 States and Territories separate institutions having courses in agriculture are maintained for the coloured race. All the agricultural colleges for white persons and several of those for negroes offer four years’ courses in agriculture and its related sciences leading to bachelors’ degrees, and many provide for graduate study. About forty-five ofthese institutions also provide special, short, and correspondence courses in the different branch of agriculture, including agronomy, horticulture, animal husbandry, poultry raising, cheese-making, dairying, sugar-making, rural engineering, farm mechanics, and other technical subjects. The officers of the agricultural colleges engage quite largely in conducting farmers’ institutes and various other forms of college extension. The agricultural experiment stations with very few exceptions are departments of the agricullural colleges. The total number of persons engaged in the work of education and research in the land-grant colleges and the experiment stations in 1905 was 5,406; the number of students in these colleges, 59,812 ; the number of students (white) in the four-year college courses in agriculture, 2,638; in short and special courses, 3,885. There were also 1,624 students in agriculture in the separate institutions for negroes. With a few exceptions each of these colleges offer free tuition to residents in the States in which it is located. In the excepted cases scholarships are open to promising and energetic students; and, in all, opportunities are found for some to earn part of their expenses by their own labour. The expenses are from $125 to $300 for the school year.

Then follows a list of the stations, with their locations, the name of the institutions, and the work that they profess to do. On page 564 is a passage dealing with the organization of Departments -

The bureau of chemistry investigates methods proposed for the analysis of plants, fertilizers, and agricultural products, and makes such analyses as pertain in general to the interests of agriculture. The work on foods includes the analysis of adulterated products, experiments to determine the effects of adulterants on the human organism, and the investigation of food products imported into the United States. The bureau does chemical work for some of the other bureaus and divisions of the department, and for other departments of the Government which apply to the Secretary of Agriculture for such assistance.

On pages 173-5 is a passage dealing with the principles underlying the work of the Departments of Agriculture and Experimental Stations.

On the other hand, there are very many things which the department could not have carried to practical conclusion, certainly not with the success that has been achieved, had it not been for the favourable conditions and co-operation afforded by the stations. This union of effort and resources has been an economy of the departments’ funds in carrying out its work, and has served to bring it closer to the farmers. For example, if in its sugar-beet work the department had been obliged to rely upon cooperation with farmers as a means of determining the range of adaptability of this crop and the practicability of its cultivation, vastly more time and expense would have been involved, and a large proportion of the trials would have been of no value owing to failure to follow directions. There would also have been an absence of constant trained observation upon the growing crops and of carefully weighed deductions at the close of the trial. As it is, the facts were secured mainly by the sending out of the beet seed and the extension of the franking privilege of the stations. The dissemination of alfalfa growing is also an illustration of successful co-operative effort in which the stations took a prominent part. Not only the adaptation of the crop to different localities had to be determined, but the best methods for putting in theseed and securing a stand, and these matters have been the subject of a large number of experiments at the stations. In arid farming the department and the stations have supplemented each other in an important way, for while the department has introduced many of the things which are proving successful in developing farm ing under restricted rainfall, the stations have exploited these crops in their regions, tested their adaptation, and even conducted special branch farms as a basis for their intelligent introduction. Such farms are maintained at State expense, for example, in North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska, and in several other States on a less formal basis. New plants and crops cannot be safely introduced from remote regions without preliminary experiments to show their value and to adapt them to the new locality ; and the experiment stations, which will be called upon sooner or later to advise farmers regarding their culture are the natural and most suitable agencies through which these preliminary trials can be made. Such trials, like practical experiments in other lines, have a value which does not attach to tests made by farmers unless the latter are closely supervized and controlled, for they are conducted under suitable conditions by trained observers competent to interpret the results. These things show the intimate relations which almost inevitably exist between the work of the departments and the stations. Consciously or unconsciously, these two agencies depend in a large degree upon each other for suggestions for materials and for results, and their activities are guided as a matter of course by these reciprocal relations.The advances in agricultural science are so complex as to their source that it is often difficult to assign the credit equitably, because there have been so many contributory causes, the real value of which is often difficult to measure.

On the question of co-operation in agricultural experiments this work states -

For example, the appropriations for conducting experiments in animal breeding and feeding, for continuing the work in plant breeding and selection for testing plant introductions, for studying the influence of environment upon the competition of cereals and sugar and starchproducing plants, for determining the adaptability of grape stocks, for studying market conditions affecting the fruit and vegetable trade, for the improvement and extension of cereal production, for work upon grass and forage plants, for drainage and irrigation investigations, for work in connexion with the ravages of the cotton boll weevil, and for studies on human food and nutrition - all make special mention of the experiment stations as co-operating agencies. But the lines of work to which co-operation has extended are in fact far more diverse and comprehensive than indicated by the congressional acts. For several years past co-operation has embraced the culture of field crops and vegetables of various kinds, of special crops like cotton, rice, and sugar beets, the breeding and adaptation of cereals and other plants, the . control of insect pests and plant diseases of various crops, the water requirement of crops and .ils application, alkali reclamation, feeding and breeding experiments with animals, experiments in butter and cheese-making and curing, and various phases of arid farming.

At page 34 plant industries and crops are dealt with -

Plant investigations have been a feature of the Department’s work since its establishment, although the organization of the bureau of plant industry was not effected until July i, 1901. It consists now. of eleven offices^ each of which is charged with the handling of a group of important plant problems. The work is carried on by 508 employes, about 60 per cent, of whom are engaged in scientific work. The work of the bureau is designed to bear directly on the practical questions which daily confront the tiller of the soil.

Achievements in cotton seed breeding are referred to in the following passage -

In the breeding and improvement of cotton the first experiments of the Department were begun in 1899. At this time little had been published regarding cotton breeding. Careful methods of breeding were devised, and methods of judging cottons by score cards worked out, which have become standards for work in this field of investigation. The frequency of natural crossing in the field was studied so that different varieties might be grown without risk of mixing and deterioration. The correlation of characters, the laws governing the splitting up of hybrids, the form of plant and other important matters have been carefully studied. Reliable advice can now be given to cotton-seed growers and breeders.

In regard to the encouragement of rice production it is stated -

Rice has received special attention during the past six or seven years. The Japanese or Kiushu variety was brought into the country and disseminated. Since this introduction the development of the rice industry in the south has been phenomenal. Between 1899 and 1904- the rice acreage of Louisana and Texas increased from 210,396 acres, yielding 179,919,293 lbs. of rough rice, in 1899 to 610,700 acres in 1904, yielding 869,426,800 lbs., an increase of upwards of 190 per cent, in acreage, by far the greater increase being in Texas. In 1899 Texas had 178 acres of rice, in 1899, 8,711 acres, while in 1904 the acreage had increased to 376,500, or more than 43 times the area under this crop six years ago.

On page 46 the question of coffee cultivation is dealt with. I draw special attention to this, because I think it is important as applicable to our tropical districts -

Coffee has received special attention in Port Rico. Studies of coffee in other regions have been made with a view to profiting by the results obtained in those regions. Several of the supposed principles of coffee culture have beenfound on being subjected to scientific study to have only local application. It has been shown that the value of shade which is recognised in a number of coffee-growing sections is “ dueprimarily to the fact, that the shade trees are of the leguminous family.

In regard to rubber, it is stated -

Important investigations have been made of the rubber industry in Central America. These studies have developed two important facts. First, that the rubber tree does not require to> be grown in regions of great and continuous humidity, as heretofore believed, but thrives and produces better in districts subject to .1 distinct dry season. The second important fact is that contrary to previous popular and scientific opinion, the same species of rubber does not extend throughout the Central American region. The reports which the Department have published have served as a warning to the public of the essentially uncertain character of a number of undertakings in rubber culture, and have undoubtedly saved to the American Republic millions of dollars.

The members agree that the prospects of the industry in Australia are not specially promising…. During the American civil war the commodity was produced in Queensland, Western Australia, and New South Wales, but judging by the rapid abandonment of the in- dustry, it did not prove as lucrative as other crops…. We find that in the year 1882 - and under the stimulus of a bounty and high prices - 717 acres of. cotton were planted in Queensland, the yield being 212,370 lbs. of ginned cotton, or a return, at ordinary market price of £8 per acre, which allowing for the work involved in growing and marketing the produce, leaves a very slender margin for the producer…. Except for the fact that cotton seed has recently become valuable because of the oil that can be extracted from it, and the cake which can be manufactured, from the residues, the cotton industry would be utterly without hope in Australia…. With the resumption of cotton cultivation in the United States at the close of the war, and the abrogation of the bonus, the industry was practically abandoned.

The bonus offered was£5,000 for the first 5,000 yards of cotton goods, but the manufacturing company ceased business very soon after the bonus had been paid over.

Senator Trenwith:

– There is not much of Mark Twain about this !

Senator DOBSON:

– The authorities appear to be unanimous that cotton will be unprofitable to Australian growers, and after giving us all these dismal sentences, they go on to say -

While fully recognising the weight of the facts already quoted, the Conference deems it advisable to afford some encouragement to those who may be inclined to initiate an industry for which the country is well suited.

– The Commonwealth could have taken steps, with the consent of the States. The Prime Minister is interfering With the business .of the States in trying to induce immigration to Australia. He is alleging that the States do not move quickly enough, whereas we all know that whatever Mr. Deakin may think of inducing immigrants to come to Australia, the whole of the Labour Party is against it. He would have done the right thing in inducing the British Cotton-growing Association to spend some of their capital here, communicating with the Premiers of the States, and asking them whether they would not provide * 10,000 acres of land which the association could lease, or, if it preferred, purchase on fair terms. Senator McColl made two or three very good points. For instance, he showed that the grant of the bounties will not help the small men. They will benefit, not the small farmers, but the rich agriculturalists or the men with capital who can club together, take up land, buy machinery, and clear and plant the land with a view to getting the bounty offered upon the production of the article which they are growing, making their calculations beforehand and knowing perfectly well that the bounty, added to the value of the product, will defray all their expenses and leave them a fair interest on their outlay. Rich men will benefit from the enactment of the Bill, but we shall all be sufferers, because I do not think a case can be made out that the grant of a bounty is likely to lead to the establishment of a permanentindustry. In regard to the bounty offered upon the production of fibre, I propose to quote a passage from a letter by Mr. A. McNaught in to-day’s newspaper. To some persons it may appear a very simple thing to grow flax and hemp, particularly New Zealand flax, but what does this correspondent point out in his letter ? He mentions that there are certain’ fibres native to Australia which he has been producing, but that when he asked if a bounty could be given in respect of their production, he was told that a bounty could only be given in respect of the production of foreign plants. He goes on to say -

The history of New Zealand flax shows the difficulty of establishing a new fibre industry. Although New Zealand flax to the value of £380,000 has been exported in one year, in the early days of the industry despair reigned, and thousands of pounds were expended in fruitless attempts to make ‘ the industry a commercial success.

I do not know who Mr. McNaught is, but he appears to be acquainted with the subject on which he is writing. He mentions that thousands of pounds had been spent and almost wasted in trying to establish the industry in New Zealand. It is a success now, but at one time despair reigned because thousands of pounds had been spent unsuccessfully. No information on that head, however, is given in the report of the experts on this Bill.

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

– Of course, the honorable senator knows that flax is indigenous to New Zealand, too.

Senator DOBSON:

– Quite so. We all know that New Zealand has a soil which is as rich as any soil in the world, and that it has a suitable climate and magnificent rainfall. Concerning the item of fibre, more inquiries ought to be made. We ought to get some evidence from New Zealand. Surely it would be worth while to ascertain by telegram how long it has taken to rear the industry in that country, how it was started, and how much money was expended in that direction. No information of that kind is furnished in the report of the experts. In my opinion, it is a very disappointing document. I hope that the amendment will be carried, but if it is not carried,and the Bill is read a second time, I shall do all I possibly can to get the total amount of the bounties reduced. I am obliged to you, sir, for pointing out to me that, according to a standing order, it is irregular to instruct a Committee of the Whole to do anything which otherwise it has the power to do, and that, therefore, my contingent amendment for an instruction to the Committee on the Bill to reduce the total amount of the bounty by £200,000 is not in order. I can see now that the Committee will have thepower, if it thinks fit, to reduce the amount from £412,500 to £212,500. If I can satisfy honorable senators that, having regard to our financial position, or even if our finances were more flourishing than they are, it is too much money to spend under the authority of one Bill, leaving nothing for the development of the Northern Territory, then it will be for the Minister to bring down an amended schedule and apply the reduced amount to the payment of bounties upon the production of such articles as he thinks there is a reasonable hope of growing profitably and permanently.

Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I was very glad indeed to have the privilege of listening to the last three speakers from the opposite side of the Chamber, and I congratulate Senators McColl and Gray on their nicely prepared speeches. I was also pleased to obtain a lot of the information which they furnished. At the same time I cannot agree with all that they said. Unlike the last speaker, I have not been carrying about a speech on this subject in my pocket for the last three weeks. I have not even gone to any considerable trouble to prepare a speech, but I intend to move an amendment to Senator McColl’s amendment in order to show my position. I admit that I do not know muchabout what articles will grow in tropical countries. But I have always held the opinion that if by the expenditure of a small sum a man can make two blades of grass grow where formerly only one blade .grew he is a benefactor to his country. It is not my intention to say much in reference to the Bill as it stands. But as a protectionist, and also as a farmer of over forty years’ standing, who gave a pledge to the electors that the interests of the primary producer would1 always have his “.first consideration here, I was rather amused when I heard Senator Dobson quoting so much in reference to the farming community and their interests. Perhaps it was done with a nice motive. When gentlemen are electioneering sometimes they go out of their way in that regard. I am also very pleased that Senator McColl stated the area of land throughout the Commonwealth, and gave certain information with reference to other countries. But in that respect I do not propose to follow his example, or that of Senator Dobson. I propose to speak as a farmer, and to touch upon one question which so far has not been referred to. If there is a’ doubt let us take advantage of it. If there is one industry more than another which we are assured we can assist without running the chance of losing <our money, that is the safest industry for us to encourage. Senator McColl referred to the great progress which is being made throughout the Commonwealth, but I would remind him that even in the State which he so ably represents the agricultural interest is on the wane, as I shall prove by reading an extract from the Bulletin of last week, and I hope that Senator Dobson will listen to it, because I presume that it emanates from an expert -

Victorian Statist Drake has just issued his -wheat-area statistics for 1907-8. He shows that there is an actual shrinkage in the area tinder crop in Victoria this year compared with last year - 2,263,301 acres last year; 2,133,000 acres this year. In the whole of the Western District there is only one county - Ripon - with enough land, under crop to be worth including in the detailed statistics; and even Ripon is down for a miserable 69,800 acres, which is actually about 3,000 acres less than it was the previous year. Evidently, in the absence of a progressive land-tax, the absurd prices demanded - whether you rent land or buy it - have driven men out of the State. They have got sick of working for the landlord and the mortgagees.

That after the word “ attained,” line 4, the following words be inserted “by such legislation as will break up the bis; estates of land now unutilized and held in large areas.”

I think that is a very reasonable amendment.

Senator McColl:

– Why not add those words to my amendment ?

Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– No ; Ipropose to cut off a little of the honorable senator’samendment.

The PRESIDENT:

– I may as well tell the honorable senator at once that he will not be in order in submitting any amendment at the present time. The Standing Orders are very clear as to the amendment of any such amendment as that which is before the Senate at present. They provide that -

When it is proposed to leave out words in the original question in order to insert or add others, no amendment to the words proposed to be inserted or added can be entertained until the question that the words proposed to be left out be left out has been determined.

So that, until the Senate has determined whether or not the words proposed by Senator McColl to be left out shall be left out, no other amendment can be submitted. If the Senate determines that the words proposed to be left out shall be left out, the question will then arise, if an amendment of the character suggested by the honorable senator is submitted later on, whether or not it is in order.

Senator Colonel Neild:

– Will not the question also arise as to whether Senator Russell, having spoken on the second reading of the Bill, can subsequently move an amendment ?

The PRESIDENT:

– If it is found that such an amendment as the honorable senator has suggested can be submitted, Senator Russell, having exhausted his right to address himself to the main question, will require to get some other honorable senator to move his amendment.

Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I thank you, sir, for directing me. I have no wish to “ stone-wall “ or kill time, and I wish to inform honorable senators that I have not been put up by the party to which I belong to move the amendment I have suggested. I do not know whether Senator McColl was assisted by any one in pre- paring the amendment he has moved.

Senator McColl:

– No . one knew anything about it. I am in a party of one here.

Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I am very glad to hear that. I hope that honorable senators will address themselves to the amendment I have suggested. I should like to hear how it appeals to Senator Millen’s logical mind. I ask honorable senators, in dealing with this Bill, to say where is the remedy to be found for the defect I have pointed out. If we can put a few thousand people upon the lands of the Commonwealth which are at present unutilized, we shall be doing a grand thing for them and for the Commonwealth. I thank honorable senators for the patient hearing they have given me.

Debate (on motion by Senator Millen) adjourned.

page 2446

PAPERS

Senator KEATING laid upon the table the following papers -

Defence Acts 1903-1904 -

page 2446

ADJOURNMENT

Electoral Act: Interference with Voters - Tobacco Manufacturers.

Motion (by Senator Best) proposed -

That the Senate do now adjourn.

Senator HENDERSON:
Western Australia

– Before the Senate adjourns, I desire to direct the attention of the Minister of Home Affairs to a matter to which reference is made in the Geelong Times of to-day. It deals with what I think has at least the appearance of an infringement of the Electoral Act. I recognise the delicacy of the matter to which I wish to direct attention, and I wish it to be thoroughly understood that there is on my part no illwill towards any man, party, or association in connexion with the matter.. My only desire is that, should it be clearly shown that a wrong has been done which is punishable under the Electoral Act, the matter shall be taken into consideration at once. The article to which I refer is practically a synopsis of correspondence. It is printed under the headings “ Corio Election Episode, Interesting Correspondence.” I will read the whole of it -

An extraordinary abuse of the power of a lodge over the individual rights of its members, and particularly over their public rights as citizens, has been shown in the recent action of the Loyal Brunswick Lodge No. 4, meeting at Geelong, in reference to Mr. R. N. Carbines, a prominent business man of the town. It appears that during the last Federal elections the two candidates, Messrs. Crouch and McCay, were asked to meet delegates from the Orangemen and confer with them about rescinding the Federal Parliament’s resolution on Home Rule. Mr. Crouch, having strongly supported Home Rule, refused to abandon his ground, but Mr. McCay met the committee, the result being that the Grand Lodge of the Loyal OrangeLatittion of Victoria passed a resolution supporting Mr. McCay’s candidature. This the Queenscliff Lodge refused to follow, and several members of the two other lodges in the Corio constituency refused to vote against Mr. Crouch. Amongst those who had known Mr. Crouch for several years as a personal friend and political supporter was Mr. R. N. Carbines, of Geelong, and he, in spite of the lodge’s resolution to support Mr. McCay, thought he had a right to exercise his vote as he chose. In consequence, on election day, one of his vehicles was lent for the use of Mr. Crouch’s supporters. As soon as the result of the election was known he received the following letter : -

Loyal Orange Institution of Victoria

Loyal Brunswick Lodge No. 4

Geelong, Dec. 19th, 1906

Dear Sir and Brother, -

You are hereby summoned to attend a meeting of your lodge, to be held at our lodge room, Protestant Hall, Yarra-street, on Wednesday evening, January 2nd, 1907, at 8 p.m.

Business. - Charge against you received by me. Copy enclosed.

By order of the W.M.

E. PITTOCK,

Secretary

Loyal Orange Institution

Loyal Brunswick Lodge No. 4

Geelong, Dec. 19th, 1906. To Bro. R. N. Carbines, -

Copy of charge as named on enclosed summons.

Dec. 17th, 1906

I hereby charge Bro. R. N. Carbines with conduct unbecoming an Orangeman, under Rule No. 14.Deposit enclosed, 10s.

The above is correct copy.

By order of committee.

E. PITTOCK,

Sec. No. 4 L.O.L

Mr. Carbines then wrote Mr. Pittock, the secretary, who is also District GrandMasted of the Orange Lodge, asking under what rule he had offended, and for a copy of the charge and the name of his accuser. He received as a reply this letter : -

Loyal Orange Institution

Loyal Brunswick Lodge No. 4

Geelong, Dec. 21st, 1906

To Bro. R. N. Carbines, -

DearSir and Bro. -

Ihave seen Bro., the W.M., re your note, duly received, and as the rule is clear in these cases, he does not see what I can do more than in my previous note or summons. The charge was received, a copy sent to you verbatim, by order of the committee. I believe it is connected with election matters, but as I did not lay the charge, nor did it emanate from me, I have no authority more than to lay same before you, and I trust you will be there, so that the lodge may have both sides to deal with. Note- The meeting date is the ordinary. Could not get the hall on the special night fixed, so called committee to deal with the dates.

Yours fraternally,

E. PITTOCK,

Sec. No. 4 L.O.L

Mr. Carbines was further informed that the charge was laid under rule 10, which reads : -

Any member guilty of violating a resolution of the Grand Lodge shall be liable to expulsion.

Mr. Carbines then asked that the Grand Master, Mr. O. R. Snowball, should be appealed to as to whether he should not know the name of his accuser, and finally it appeared to be a Mr. L. F. Richardson, of the Market Square, Geelong. This was conveyed to him in the following letter : -

Loyal Orange Institution

Loyal Brunswick Lodge No. 4

Geelong, Jan. 30th, 1907

To Bro. R. N. Carbines,-

Dear Sir and Bro.-

The answer came this morning. The G.M. says charge should be lodged with the secretary, who has, under the rule, to send a copy of the charge (signature included) to the person charged and stating when and where the charge will be dealt with. According to this, I now add the name of the brother laying the charges - Bro. L. F. Richardson.

Yours faithfully,

E. PITTOCK.

On the 6th February,, Mr. Carbines attended the lodge, and Mr. Richardson charged him with breaking rule 10 by violating a resolution of the Grand Lodge by supporting Mr. Crouch at the election, and after some discussion he was found guilty by a majority of allowing his horse and waggon to be used on Mr. Crouch’s behalf. The Worshipful Master present was Mr. Tingate; the secretary, Mr. J. E. Pittock; and treasurer, Mr. Richardson. Several members protested against any action which would interfere with another member’s right to vote and support whom he pleased at a Parliamentary election, and it was said that nearly every member of the Queenscliff lodge, and a large number of others who were Protectionists, would also have to be punished. Finally Mr. Carbines was told he was found guilty by a majority, and he was afterwards notified that he was suspended from membership of the lodge for twelve months from March, 1907. He received this “sentence” in this letter from the secretary : -

Loyal Brunswick Lodge,

Geelong, April 10th, 1907.

To Bro. R. N. Carbines,

Moorabool-street, Geelong,

Dear Sir and Bro. -

By authority, I beg to inform you that the lodge has confirmed the recommendation of the committee, “ that you be suspended for a period of twelve months from the March meeting,” unanimously. It should have been dealt with, as you are aware, at the March meeting, but, as I was away, it was overlooked in my notes, having to leave home very hurriedly, hence the lodge putting it from March.

Yours faithfully,

E. PITTOCK,

Secretary No. 4 L.O.L.

Since then Mr. Carbines attended a meeting of the lodge, but was ejected by the master, Mr. Tingate, and secretary, Mr. Pittock. Accordingly he wrote the Grand Lodge as to whether it confirmed his suspension, and received as reply : -

Loyal Orange Institution of Victoria.

Grand Secretary’s Office,

Protestant Hall, Exhibition-st.,

Melbourne, nth June, 1907.

To Mr. R. N. Carbines, Geelong, -

Dear Sir, -

In reply to yours of the 4th inst., I beg to inform you that your suspension has been confirmed.

For an answer to your other question, I must refer you to the secretary of No. 4, Geelong.

I remain, yours truly, (Seal) J. A. BAKER, G.S.

It is said that a member of the Drysdale lodge has been blackballed for voting for Mr. Crouch, while on the other hand it is stated that an attempt will be made to suspend the Queenscliff lodge’s charter for so solidly supporting Mr. Crouch.

In addition to what I have read, I desire to call the attention of the Minister to section 177 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act, which reads as follow -

Whoever -

threatens, offers or suggests any violence, injury, punishment, damage, loss, or disadvantage for, or on account of, or to induce, any candidature, or withdrawal of candidature, or any vote, or any omission to vote, or any support or opposition, to any candidate, or any promise of any vote, omission, support, or opposition ; or

uses, causes, inflicts or procures any violence, punishment, damage, loss, or disadvantage for or on account of any such candidature, withdrawal, vote, omission, support or opposition shall be guilty of undue influence.

I call the Minister’s attention to these facts with no other desire than to see that justice is done in connexion with electoral matters. No matter whether by a society or by an individual, if the Electoral Act is infringed, I hold that it is the duty of the Minister to take action.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [10. 11]. - Before the Minister replies to Senator Henderson’s remarkable statement, I wish to ask him whether any result has been arrived at in connexion with the inquiry of the Government into the large number of cock-and-bull stories brought forward in connexion with the tobacco manufacturers last week ?

Senator GIVENS:
QUEENSLAND · ALP; NAT

– I am. astonished that the Minister has made no reply to the serious matter which Senator Henderson has brought before the Senate. That it is serious, I do not think any honorable senator will question. Prima facieit appears to be a case of gross interference with the right of citizens of the Commonwealth to exercise the franchise which the Constitution has conferred upon them. I do not think that any action which could be taken to counteract such conduct on the part of individuals or associations could be too drastic. An honorable senator near me observes that the statement made is merely exparte. No one wishes to take action upon any exparte statement. But, on the face of it, a statement of that character, published in an independent newspaper, and giving all the facts in the form of correspondence, at least calls for inquiry. We have a right to expect from the Minister that he will promise that a searching inquiry shallbe made into the whole of the circumstances, and that action shall betaken to prevent such tactics being resorted to at any election in the future. We know that, as a matter of fact, the religious association in question - the Loyal Orange Lodge - has, throughout Australia, taken a very active part in Federal politics. It is a matter for sincere and profound regret that an association of any kind whatever, belonging to any section of the Christian religion, -should try to stir up bitterness and bigotry in the political life of this young country. Speaking as a Protestant, I know that the action of the Loyal Orange Lodge throughout Australia has been enough to make anybody feel ashamed to belong to a denomination which would harbor such persons. Instead of allowing the various Christian sects to live in harmony, they are trying to stir up bigotry of all kinds, and to make religion subservient to the basest political purposes. I refuse to believe that there is any warranty in the Christian religion for such a course of conduct. It is time that the Government did take some drastic action to prevent politics from being degraded by the introduction of sectarian bitterness and bigotry, as. has been done in the instance mentioned.

Senator Chataway:

– Does tlie honorable senator think that religion degrades politics?

Senator GIVENS:

– I hold that the introduction of religious bigotry into politics degrades politics, and also religion. It is all very fine for honorable senators who are benefited by these religious organizations to stand up in defence of them, but when we have cited .a specific case where a man has been pursued with the utmost rigour, and punished because he has dared to exercise the franchise which the Constitution has conferred upon him, I think it is time for the Parliament to interfere, and to say that no such interference with his right as a citizen shall be tolerated. The matter is a very serious one to me, as a member of the denomination for which this bigoted organization claims sometimes to be the mouth-piece - a claim which I entirely repudiate - and it, therefore, interests me personally. I want the denomination to which I belong to keep its hands clean, and not to be mixed up in disgraceful affairs of that sort.

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

.- At the beginning of his speech, Senator Henderson said that he wished particularly to bring a matter under the notice of the Minister of Home Affairs. I listened carefully to him, and I think that, after reading- the extract from the newspaper, he quoted a provision in. the Electoral Act, and concluded by stating that, having brought the matter under the notice of the Minister of Horrie Affairs, he desired that attention should be given to it. I did not understand the honorable senator to put any question to me, or to ask me to express an opinion on the case. Other matters might lie, -and were, raised on my honorable colleague’s motion of adjournment, and if my honorable colleague had spoken to the motion he would have closed debate, hut he would have at the same time Stated that the representations made by the honorable senator would receive the careful consideration of the Government, .that whatever inquiries were necessary would be made, and that the matter would be referred in the ordinary course for advice. No Minister is expected, as honorable senators know, to give legal, advice on any question which is raised here, except perhaps in respect of a Bill which he is piloting through the Chamber. I can assure Senator Henderson that I listened to him, and heard for the first time the circumstances which he read from a Geelong newspaper of to-day. I also noted his reference to the Electoral Act, and I promise him that proper inquiry will be made into the circumstances.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned at 10.19 P-m- ‘

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 28 August 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1907/19070828_senate_3_38/>.

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Senate28 August 1907

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CONFERENCE : PAPERS

Senator BEST:Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

QUESTION

WIRE NETTING INDUSTRY

Senator MILLEN:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator BEST:Protectionist

QUESTION

QUARANTINE

Senator ST LEDGER:QUEENSLAND

Senator KEATING:Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

TARIFF COMMISSION’S REPORTS

Senator CLEMONS:TASMANIA

Senator BEST:Protectionist

NAVIGATION BILL

Senator BEST:Protectionist

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator BEST:

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator Sayers:

Senator MACFARLANE:TASMANIA

Senator Clemons:

Senator MACFARLANE:

Senator BEST:

Senator de Largie:

QUESTION

TARIFF: STATE IMPORTS

Senator BEST:Protectionist

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Best:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Best:

Senator Clemons:

QUESTION

CABLES TO TASMANIA

Senator DOBSON:TASMANIA · FT; TARIFF REFORM from 1903

Senator KEATING:Protectionist

BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL

Senator KEATING:Min ister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator KEATING:

Senator CLEMONS:Tasmania

Senator Keating:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Keating:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Keating:

Senator SAYERS:Queensland

Senator Keating:

Senator SAYERS:

Senator CLEMONS:Tasmania

Senator Sayers:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Sayers:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator KEATING:Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator Millen:

Senator KEATING:

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator KEATING:

Senator SAYERS:Queensland

Senator Macfarlane:

Senator SAYERS:

Senator CLEMONS:Tasmania

Senator Sayers:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Sayers:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Sayers:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Givens:

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator TRENWITH:Victoria

Senator Givens:

Senator TRENWITH:

Senator WALKER:New South Wales

Senator MILLEN:New South Wales

Senator Clemons:

Senate
28 August 1907

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist

Senator MILLEN:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator ST LEDGER:
QUEENSLAND

Senator KEATING:
Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

Senator CLEMONS:
TASMANIA

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator MACFARLANE:
TASMANIA

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator DOBSON:
TASMANIA · FT; TARIFF REFORM from 1903

Senator KEATING:
Protectionist

Senator KEATING:
Min ister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

Senator SAYERS:
Queensland

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator SAYERS:
Queensland

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

Senator TRENWITH:
Victoria

Senator WALKER:
New South Wales

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

Senator KEATING:
Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator MACFARLANE:
Tasmania

Senator WALKER:
New South Wales

Senator KEATING:
.Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

Senator TURLEY:
Queensland

Senator GRAY:
New South Wales