Senate
1 June 1904

2^nd Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- INDUSTRIALISM AND EDUCATION
QUESTION
- FEDERAL AND STATE ELECTIONS
QUESTION
- SUBLETTING OF POST OFFICES
QUESTION
- SUMMER SESSIONS
QUESTION
- IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION ACT
PAPERS.
SEAT OF- GOVERNMENT BILL
- Second Reading

The President took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers;

page 1736

QUESTION

INDUSTRIALISM AND EDUCATION

Senator DOBSON:
TASMANIA

– - I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, will he obtain and lay on the table of the Senate a copy’ of the report of the two Mosely Commissions on Industrialism and Education, which sat in’ America ?

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I should like the honorable and learned senator to give notice of the question, and if the Government, are agreeable I shall have the papers procured as soon as possible.

page 1736

QUESTION

FEDERAL AND STATE ELECTIONS

Senator DOBSON:

– I desire to ask the. Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice -

Is he aware that during the recent Federal elections many electors supporting the Labour Party prevented the free expression of opinions, at election meetings by candidates not belonging to such party, and that similar tactics were recently adopted to prevent the Premier of Victoria from placing his policy before the electors of his State?
Do the Government approve of such con duct?
Have the Government or the leaders of the Federal Labour Party protested against such conduct, and have they or any of them taken any steps, and if so, what steps, to prevent a repetition of such conduct at Federal elections?

Senator McGREGOR:

– I have no official knowledge of such conditions.

page 1737

QUESTION

SUBLETTING OF POST OFFICES

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

asked the VicePresident of the Executive Council, upon notice -

The number, of post-offices in the State of Victoria which have been ‘’ farmed out” or let to applicants at an annual rate of remuneration fixed by the Department?
The reasons which led “to the adoption of such a system by the Hon. the PostmasterGeneral ?
If the system referred to has been adopted on the score of economy, then is it the intention of the Hon. the Postmaster-General to extend its operations to include the more important offices controlled by his Department?
In the event of no suitable applicant tender, ing his services to the Commonwealth at the remuneration originally fixed, has it been the practice of the Department to increase the amount and invite applicants afresh on the system known to commerce as the “Dutch auction”?
The amount or the average percentage ordinarily saved by the letting of offices in the way indicated as compared with the amounts payable by way of salary if the same services were po formed by regular officers of the Department?

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follow: -

There are sixty-seven post-offices in the State of Victoria under the contract system, that is, they have been placed in charge of the most eligible applicant at an annual rate of remuneration determined by the Department, Of these, fortyeight were previously staff officers, and nineteen were advanced from the allowance system.
The contract system was adopted before the Department was transferred to the Common, wealth, and the reason for its adoption was to afford to the public all the facilities for the transaction of postal and telegraphic business at a cost proportionate to the revenue produced.
The extension of the system to the more important offices has not yet been considered by the Postmaster-General.
The Postmaster-General is not aware that it has been the practice to increase the amounts determined. In all the cases; which have come under his observation there have been an excessive number of applicants.
The average percentage ordinarily saved so far as it can be given, as compared with the amount payable by way of Salary, if the same services were performed by officers bf the Department, is 33 per cent.

page 1737

QUESTION

SUMMER SESSIONS

Senator PEARCE:

asked the VicePresident of the Executive Council., upon notice. -

Will the Government take into consideration the advisability of the Sessions of Parliament being held in the summer months as far as practicable ?

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

– - The answer to the honorable senator’s question is as follows -

Members of the Government arc in favour of an arrangement such as that suggested.

3°

page 1737

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION ACT

Senator GUTHRIE:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the VicePresident of the Executive Council, upon notice -

Were the crew of the Norwegian s.s. Inger mustered before being permitted to clear out before leaving Sydney on the 3rd ult., in accordance with the provisions of section 3, paragraph k of the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 ?
1. If so, was any report made by the officer to the effect that thirteen of the original crew were left on the wharf stranded penniless, even with out their kits, and unable to speak English?
If not, will the Government cause a full iiquiry into this matter?

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

– The answers t< the honorable senator’s questions are as follow -

No. It has not been the practice to muster crews of vessels on which no coloured men are employed.
It is stated that a number of the crew deserted when the vessel was on the point of leaving.
The men are now in the Seamen’s Home, Sydney, and are reported to be without money or extra clothes.

Senator GUTHRIE:

– The third question has not been answered.

Senator McGREGOR:

– If the honorable senator desires it, I shall endeavour to give a fuller answer as soon as possible.

page 1737

PAPERS.

Senator McGREGOR laid upon the table the following papers : -

Amended regulations under the Public Service Act relating to Life Assurance.

Paper relating to the proposed retirement of Mr. Sholl, Deputy Postmaster-General for Western Australia.

page 1737

SEAT OF- GOVERNMENT BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 26th May (vide page 1604), on motion by Senator McGregor.

That the Bill be now read a second time.

Senator DOBSON:
Tasmania

– I have to thank the Senate for allowing me permission to continue my speech, although it was nearly completed when the debate was adjourned on the 25th May. With regard to the amendment, which was ruled out of order, it appeared to me, sir. that the reasons which you gave were such that I could hardly answer, but I propose to move an amendment to the motion for the second reading, and I shall point out why I do not feel at liberty to move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months. If I moved an amendment of that kind, my very sensitive friends on my right would say that I desired to repudiate the bond which they are pleased to say is in the Constitution. But, for some reasons, I desire to see the Bill laid aside, and I think that the amendment I have in my hand will be found by you to be relevant to the Bill.

The PRESIDENT:

– According to the Standing Orders it must be strictly relevant to the Bill.

Senator DOBSON:

– It is strictly relevant to the Bill. I propose to move -

That nil the words after the word “ That,” line i, be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words : - “ in view of the expense of carrying on the Federal Government, and the financial position of the Commonwealth, the Senate is not prepared to proceed with this Bill at present.”

Senator DOBSON:

– I quite understand that; but when I desired to move an amendment before to the effect that the terms and conditions on which we could acquire the land from the mother State ought to be gone into before we pass the Bill, it was ruled out of order. I am inclined to think that it was more relevant to the Bill than the one I wished to submit this afternoon. 1 must admit that I wrapped up that amendment with two or three others. I desire to move -

That all the words after the word “That,” line 1, be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words : - “this Senate is of opinion that the Bill should be postponed until the Government have found out on what terms, and whether they can. acquire the land mentioned in the Bill from the mother State.

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Trenwith:

– What are the advantages to Victoria of having the Federal Parliament sitting in Victoria?

Senator DOBSON:

– I do not know that the advantages are very great, and for the life of me, I cannot see what all the troubleis about; but the people of New South Wales have got it into their heads that it is their right to have the Capital located within that State, and they cannot get it nut. Consequently, it would appear, we must have a reference to the subject on the noticepaper, session after session, and month aftermonth. We are being barracked into making the selection before we are ready to do so. The fact that, since our meeting last week, three reports have been furnished tous, and another is to come in, shows that, on this occasion also, the Government have started the discussion of the matter before it is ripe for discussion. In further justification of what I have said, I would refer honorable senators to the report received from Lt. -Col. Owen, the Inspector-General of Works. He was sent to inspect the sites, and comparing Bombala and Tumut districts, he said -

I am not in a position to judge regarding one of the principle factors, viz.’, Climate. The residents in both the Monaro and Tumut districts claim an excellent climate all the year round. The Tumut residents will, not admit that the valleys are subject to a humid heat in the summer (although they find it possible togrow maize and tobacco) ; and Monaro residents will not admit to a frigid climate in winter, notwithstanding the existence of a snow-capped mountain range to the west, and close by. This is a question that, as stated above, should be put to a practical test before the selection is made.

There we have our Inspector of Works stating that the question of climate should be practically tested before the choice of a site is made.

Senator Matheson:

– In any case, the report upon the climate would be only a personal one.

Senator DOBSON:

– Lt. -Col. Owen further reports -

I believe, however, that it will be found that the climate at Batlow is the best of all the proposed sites. If it is found that the climate of Monaro is intolerable in the winter it would be a great mistake to select a site in that district. If, however, the climate in Monaro, although, cold, is found riot to be unbearably so, then I am of opinion that the selection as between the sites under consideration should be made in the Monaro district.

Senator Matheson has suggested that it will be a personal matter ; but I take it that we should -be able to secure reliable data in respect to the climate of these places.

Senator Matheson:

– But we shall have only the personal opinion of the man who makes the report.

Senator Staniforth Smith:

– Have we not already got information on the subject from people who have been there for twenty years?

Senator DOBSON:

– I think not, because, as the Inspector-General of Works points out, the local residents are prejudiced. I should imagine that residents in both the districts would be able to give us the facts; but Senator Smith must admit that we are influenced sometimes by conscious or unconscious bias. It is on that account that Lt.-Col. Owen says that, before we select the site, we should have proper data collected, because, as he points out, if the climate of Monaro is so intolerably cold, as has been stated, it would be undesirable to have the Federal Capital located there.

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– Does the honorable and learned gentleman require more information ?

Senator DOBSON:

– I do, and I am pointing out that our Inspector-General of Works is of opinion that we should have further information before we make the choice of a site. It appears to me that we should pass a series of motions before deciding on the site. We should decide whether a further report is necessary, and whether we require merely to secure a piece of land on which to erect some buildings, on the ground that until, we have a bit of land of our own we cannot have national ideas. To my mind that is mere humbug. I think we should consider a series of motions on all the salient points before making a selection between the Tumut and Southern Monaro sites. If a Monaro site is chosen it will require a great deal of skill, time, and trouble to decide which is the best site in Southern Monaro. I lay great stress on the point made by the President, that if it is necessary to select a site between the big cities of Sydney and Melbourne

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– That is Tumut, which ds equi-distant between the two.

Senator DOBSON:

– I am not prepared now to move the amendment which I previously read,, but I move -

That the word “ now “ be left out with a view to adding the words “ this day six months.”

We hear a good deal about the unearned increment, and no doubt there is such a thing. There may, however, be a decrement, and I have here a letter from Messrs. Cameron Bros., the well-known auctioneers and valuers of Brisbane, which shows how very dangerous it is to suppose that land will always go up in value. I had some business with Messrs. Cameron Bros, in reference to an estate, in Canada, represented by me, and the firm wrote to me -

We regret extremely to report the enormous depreciation that has taken place in this locality, but when you consider that for fourteen years the values of Brisbane property have been steadily receding, you will understand that in many cases even larger reductions than these have been made. Not long ago we sold a property at Southport for £17, which formerly changed hands at ^1,700. . . . There is no doubt, even in first-rate properties, a startling falling off has taken place. One property we might mention in Adelaide-street, which we are endeavouring to sell, on behalf of the trustees . . . for the sum pf £3,000, ‘was formerly sold for £10,000, and only twelve months ago £4,000 was refused for it.

Senator STYLES:

– Here is what he said -

Lorn; before I hari finished my visits of inspection, the conviction was forced on me that 100 square miles would not be nearly enough for the Federal Territory. But I was disposed to think that there ought to be no considerable excess over the prescribed minimum, and that although 25 per cent, of excess might be permissible, the offer of an area much larger than that minimum was not contemplated by >the framers of the enactment.

That no doubt suits my honorable friends from New South Wales, but I do not stop there. I quote from a report from their own man, handed to us for our information. It was prepared under the direction of the New South Wales Parliament, and laid before that Parliament on the 30th October, 1900, as a parliamentary paper, and a copy of it was then sent by the Government of New South Wales to the Federal Government. Mr. Oliver said also -

Further consideration has made me abandon this opinion. To the Commonwealth, or partnership of Australian States, the acquisition of a territory very much larger than the minimum area will, I am convinced, prove of inestimable benefit.

His Honour then gives his views as to the area needed, and he said -

This Southern Monaro Federal Territory site of 125 square miles (80,000 acres) is, in my opinion, altogether inadequate, and an extension of area is suggested, which would increase the area up to 1,200 square miles approximately.

That was Mr. Olivers advice to the Parliament which appointed him, and it ought to have some weight, coming from an authority like the President of the Land Court of New South Wales. Another question referred to by Senator Dobson is worthy of consideration, namely, that the Federal territory should abut on another State, or on the sea coast. My own preference is for a territory abutting on the sea coast. If Bombala or some other Southern Monaro site be selected, and only 100 square miles he allotted, all idea of reaching the port of Eden must be abandoned ; and such conditions are, in my view, absurd. A site in the same locality would also preclude the idea of the Federal territory abutting on “Victoria ; but that is a matter about which I do not mucK care. Mr. Oliver is of opinion that a seaport is almost indispensable, and in his report he said -

In the first place, the inclusion in the Federal Territory of Southern Monaro of a harbor like Twofold Bay, with at least from 5 to 6 square miles of safe anchorage for the largest ocean going steamers, secured bv a north and south breakwater of no extraordinary dimensions or cost And of a railway connexion with that harbor, bo1’ railway and harbor, and a sufficient area of adi.” cent country to bc Commonwealth property, distinguish this site from all others …. thi– harbor, being Crown land, would cost the Commonwealth nothing for resumption.

If the Seat of Government were to be located on the Monaro tableland, and connected by rail with a harbor such as Twofold Bay, the Commonwealth would acquire an invaluable naval base, situate - nearly half-way between the two State capitals that offer the greatest temptations to an enemy - Sydney and Melbourne. The eastern States of Australia would acquire a harbor of refuge, or for refitting ships in distress, or for coaling. I: ti Commonwealth is to have a navy of its own, or even a training-ship, Twofold Bay would be a convenient station, particularly for gunnery practice, and suggests itself as the convenient headquarters for the Naval Commandant. As the breakwaters would be fortified, the Port of Eden could be made practically impregnable. With such a harbor the Commonwealth would have two routes for reaching the various State Capitals - one by sea, the other by land - and for facilitating the collection, mobilization, and despatch of troops, munitions, and equipments.

The lumber cargoes from the other side of the Pacific could be discharged direct on the Eden wharf, and the same facilities would exist for 5 cargoes of coal, stone, roofing-slates, tiles, cement, and all other kinds of building material ; and thus every State of the Federation would have a common commercial heritage in a harbor second only to Port Jackson.

What these and other advantages might mean in the course of a generation or two it is impossible to predict and, perhaps, difficult to exaggerate.

The Royal Commission of last year declared that- with a railway between the Federal Capital and Twofold Bay, 10 per cent, would be saved on the cost of building; and that, of course, is a very important item. ‘ The representatives of New South Wales will doubtless strongly oppose any railway connexion between Twofold Bay and the Capital, for the reason that there is a distance of 300 miles from Sydney, and the desire is that all the supplies for the Federal Capital should pass through Sydney and over the New South Wales railways. That may be a narrowminded, but it is what is regarded as a business view. What is desired is easy access to the Federal Capital at any time. Senator Dobson the other day charged the Government with not having given any estimates of the cost, but I do not think that complaint is well founded. Reliable estimates of cost have been supplied to every member of the Commonwealth Parliament. Mr. Oliver shows an estimate of the cost of access, water supply, land resumption, and laying out and erecting the city, and I shall read what he states on the last point. Mr. Oliver, in his report, adopted the view of certain experts, who mav be known to senators from New South Wales. These experts were not the Royal Commission of last year, but were prominent professional men in New South Wales, and the cost, according to them, will be -

Senator Staniforth Smith:

– For the next fifty years?

Senator STYLES:

– All that money is to be expended within tha next few years.

Mr. Oliver stated in his report

That the above are the buildings that will probably be necessary .’ . . . after the necessary arrangements have been made for access, water supply and sewerage, and housing the operatives. -

I ask honorable senators whether the names of the following gentlemen who prepared and signed that estimate are not sufficient to carry some weight, apart from the opinions expressed by Mr. Oliver -

Mr. O. Allen Mansfield, F.R.J. B.A. (chairman), New South Wales ; Mr. W. L. Vernon, F.R.J.B.A., Government Architect of New South Wales; Mr. John Barton, F.R.J.B.A., president of the Institute of Architects, New South Wales and Mr. Geo. Knibbs, president of the Institute of Surveyors of New South Wales, and Surveying lecturer, University of Sydney.

Senator STYLES:

– Yes. and I am pleased to contrast the “ Cabbage garden ‘ ‘ with the Squatter’s run on the other side of the Murray. The expenditure to which I have drawn attention would, on the basis of population, be apportioned as follows: -

– Suppose we do pay three .times that sum, it is very much less than the amou.it that we would haveto pay in interest on the Federal Capital expenditure. Let me read to honorable senators what the Chief Railways Commissioner of Victoria reported to the Royal Commission last year. This is the latest information. He said that as the line from; Melbourne to Sydney via the Federal’ Capital would be about too miles longer than via Albury, it would “ probably be used only by those’ having business withthe Capital.” He added, however -

That at some not very distant date the Victorian portion of the line from Bairnsdale viaOrbost will probably have to be constructed for State purposes, as it will. open up some fertilecountry.

Senator Trenwith:

– That is the consideration which I suggested when I asked what incidental advantages there were.

Senator STYLES:

– I recognise that. Now let us hear what Mr. Rennick, the Engineer-in-Chief, who has been over theground, and is the highest authority we have, says on the point -

So far, as may be judged by surface indication, the greater part of the country between. Bairnsdale and Delegate. . . . appears of a very inferior character, and quite unfit tomaintain under present industrial conditions of Victoria any considerable population. . . The question is, would any such line be justified within a reasonable period of, say twentyyears.

That opinion seems like a damper, does it not ? It looks as though we were not going” to have that line constructed by Victoria. If it is not constructed, we shall have te- travel 286 miles further round from Melbourne to reach the Federal Capital.

Senator Dobson:

– We shall never have the line built.

Senator STYLES:

– At any rate, such a line will not be built for many years tocome. I will next quote what the Chief Commissioner of the New South Wales railways said. His estimate was higher than the estimate of the Royal Commission -

The line from Cooma would be necessary in order to bring the site (Bombala) into communication with the State (New South Wales) railway system. . . . the other lines would be required to make it conveniently accessible from the Southern States. . . .

He also states that -

The construction of the New South Wales portion of the Bombala-Bairnsdale line could only be justified on the ground of the necessity for connecting the Federal Capital, if at Bombala, with Melbourne direct.

Senator Trenwith:

– Surely the preliminary is to decide where the Capital shall be.

Senator STYLES:

Senator Dobson:

– He is a Tasmanianwho has a craze on the subject. He thinksthat we ought to build a Capital which would vie with the capitals of the world.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– The writer seems, to be pretty familiar with the subject which he has handled very intelligently. This ishis opinion of Senator Dobson’s proposal’ to have a Capital perambulating from Melbourne to Sydney.

Senator Dobson:

– As a temporary measure.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– According to the figures given in this article by the writer a perambulating Capital would be more expensive than a permanent Capital on the site chosen by the Senate last year. The writer says -

In a signed article in the Examiner, a newspaper published in Launceston, Tasmania, Senator Dobson, to whom the idea of substituting Sydney for the constitutional capital is principally, if not solely, due, writes : - “ I believe there are thousands of persons who shrink, as I do, from advocating the enormous expenditure which must result from building a capital in the ‘ back-blocks.’ “ On what principle of economics Mr. Dobson can consider that it will be cheaper to house, say, 20,000 persons -

Senator Dobson:

– Twenty thousand persons ? That is quite enough to condemn anything that that gentleman says.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– I think that before the lapse of many years we shall have a population of 20.000 persons in the Federal Capital, if it is going to be worthy of the name at all. - in an over-populated city, where building land has already reached enormous prices, rather than on a virgin site, where land can be obtainedat “ prairie value,” I am at a loss to discover. As a matter of fact, one of the chief and most obvious reasons for building our capital on a new site, is the immediate and inevitable economy which will thereby be effected. The number of persons attracted to the Federal Seat of Government, whether it be at Bombala, Sydney, or elsewhere, will presumably be the same. At Bombala the estimated value of the land (as given in the carefullyprepared and admirably-illustrated Proposed Federal Capital Sites, issued by authority of the New South Wales Government), is from £1 10s. to £5or £7anacre. At a rough estimate the city might be supposed to occupy, at the commencement, four square miles, of which two square miles might be deducted for streets and open spaces. This would give two square miles of 1,280 acres, of which the value would immediately become, on the average, probably not less than£i,ooo an acre, giving a rough total value of 280,000. If we estimate the purchase money at so high a figure as £5 an acre, the total spent on purchasing the actual four square miles included in the above computation would only be£12,800, so that, if my figures are approximately correct, there would be an immediate clear gain of a very large sum. Though some of the land might not be worth the estimated average value per acre, it must, on the other hand, be remembered that in the main business centres it would probably far exceed it. If Sydney had been selected as the Federal Capital, a similar increase of population must inevitably have occurred. Additional building land would in one direction or another, have had to be made available. No doubt the process in such a case would be practically invisible and unnoticed, except in the case of the purchase of particular sites for definite Federal purposes. But it would none the less exist. A large increase in the value of building land round Sydney would undoubtedly take place. For that unearned increment some one would have to pay. Money for the necessary extra buildings, whether public or private, would have to be obtained. In the case of Sydney, the borrowing would presumably be arranged by private enterprise. But if, as I have suggested, the land were let at Bombala on ninety-nine years’ leases. there is no reason why the necessary finances should not be obtained in precisely the same way.

In my opinion the writer has handled the subject very well, and the intelligent manner in which he has dealt with land values, the cost of buildings, and so forth, goes to prove that by adopting the proposal of Senator Dobson we should incur quite as great expense from time to time as we should by establishing the Capital on a site and making land values in a district in which the soil is of very little value. Therefore, looking at the matter, even from the honorable senator’s stand -point of cheeseparing economy, we have every reason for saying that we should, as soon as possible, select a site, and acquire the unearned increment which we know must accrue in any virgin district such as Bombala or Southern Monaro. Iam not tied down to Bombala any more than to Delegate or Dalgety. So far as I can judge - and I have seen the sites lately - the best site is Delegate, not Dalgety. It is almost as good a site as Dalgety for water power. The Delegate River may not be as large as the Snowy River, but I feel quite sure that it would be equal to all the requirements of the Federal Capital. The soil of the Delegate district is much superior to that of Bombala, and undoubtedly far superior to the soil of Dalgety. The climate is said to be much warmer than the climate in any part of the table-land of Southern Monaro. It is an old camping ground of the aboriginal race. A blackfellow does not camp on the coldest part of a country. Naturally he selects a snug or warm locality, and makes it his camping ground. Delegate has long been known as an old camping groundofthe aboriginal race. Not only has it a good soil, but it has a much better climate than any other part of the table-land of Southern Monaro. It is near the border of Victoria, but I am afraid that we shall not get the area of 5,000 square miles which, it is suggested, is the least we should take.

Senator Findley:

– We shall try, anyhow.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– I am willing to try to get as much land as we possibly can, but I am afraid that we shall be obliged to fix the Federal Capital as near the border as possible in order that we may have a territory not surrounded by New South

Wales, aif some honorable senators have proposed. If we want an independent territory - one abutting on the boundary of Victoria - I think that we shall have to take Delegate instead of Dalgety.

Senator Dobson:

– How far is Delegate from the Victorian border?

Senator Trenwith:

– About three miles.

Senator DE LARGIE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– That is so. There is a part of the Delegate hill on the Victorian side of the border. That would of necessity be a part of the Federal site. I hope that we shall get rid of parochial ideas and do justice to the subject. If we are not to set aside the ideas of Kyabram, it would be better that we should not deal with the subject at all. We cannot do justice to the Federal Capital site by the adoption of any cheese-paring policy. I agree with what has been said by Senator Styles about the expenditure involved. A large expenditure is inevitable. We cannot erect the fine-blocks of buildings which will be necessary if the Federal Capital is to do us credit without the expenditure of a large sum of money. The Federal Parliament House, for instance, should not be constructed on a less grand scale than the building which we occupy at the present time. If any other course were pursued it would be suggested that we were content to play second fiddle.to the States.

Senator Mulcahy:

– I hope we shall play double bass in the matter of extravagance.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– It is not a question of extravagance, but a question of the requirements essential for the Parliament of Australia. I should not consent to the erection of a building which could not be considered suitable for a national Parliament. If the Australian Parliament is to be worth;.’ of the Commonwealth we should have a Parliament House in the Federal Capital at least as good as that which’ we occupy at the present time.

Senator Dobson:

– Has the honorable senator read the Prime Minister’s idea of what should be done?

Senator DE LARGIE:

– Not at all. I cannot but congratulate Senator McGregor on his -recantation Or repentance. On the 15th October last Senator McGregor, speaking in the Senate, said -

To my mind, it would be in the interests of Australia, and in nowise prejudicial to the individual States of Victoria or New South Wales, to acquire an area considerably in excess of 1,000 square miles.

Senator McGregor:

– I say so still.

Senator PULSFORD:

– The honorable senator went on -

I am about .to make a proposal - not with the intention of delaying the selection of a site, or of doing anything to aggravate the people o’f New South Wales - that we should acquire a large territory …. It comprises the Riverina and the district eastward to the sea. I think that the Federal territory should take in not only Tumut, Batlow, Yarrangobilly, and several other places which have been referred to as an inducement to the selection of a certain site, but the whole area between the 35th parallel of latitude and the Victorian border. The Murrumbidgee would form the northern and western boundary, whilst the territory would be bounded on the south, and slightly to the west, by the Murray. That would mean an area of about 20,000 square miles.

I congratulate the Vice-President of the Executive Council on his having repented of this . proposed dismemberment of ‘New South Wales.

Senator McGregor:

– I have not repented.

Senator PULSFORD:

– I did not have the pleasure of hearing the honorable senator speak the other day, but I have read his remarks, in which he expressed the opinion that the area ought to consist of 5,000 square miles. It will be seen that he dropped from 20.000 square miles to 5,000 square miles, while in the Bill only 900 square miles is mentioned. Such a reduction is very considerable, and shows the sobering effect of official responsibility. It would be very desirable if we could have fourteen Cabinet Ministers in the Senate, because we should then have that number of gentlemen experiencing all the sobering influences of responsibility, which could not fail to be in the interests of the prosperity of the Commonwealth.

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– The honorable senator means fourteen members of the Labour Party.

Senator PULSFORD:

– I did not say so. Very exaggerated ideas are entertained by some persons on the subject of unearned increment. We have heard of unearned increment where people are able to buy land ; but if we erect a Federal Capital, and warn all the world that not one single acre, yard, or foot may be privately owned, that will practically be a notice, which will be accepted, to keep away. The majority of people who desire to settle, want land in order to make homes for themselves ; they wish to go somewhere where they can assist in raising the value of land and obtain advantage thereby. I am afraid that, in the Federal Territory, under circumstances such as have been foreshadowed, the growth of population and the unearned increment will be exceedingly small for many long years to come. About three months ago I told the people of New South Wales that I had a great deal of sympathy with those who hold that we ought to have some idea about the expenditure necessary in connexion with the Federal Capital. I said, on that occasion, that the people of New South Wales had not quite appreciated the strength of feeling in favour of economy which was to be observed in the various other States, and I pointed out that it was the duty of all interested to have the negotiations smoothly conducted. I :have every sympathy with those who say that we ought to know where we are going in this matter. I do not believe that we ought 10 select a site, and then regard that, as settling the question for years to come; that would be a fraudulent settlement of the question. On the other hand, I do not believe in our raising up a city without having any idea -as to what we are going to do thereafter. I added, on the occasion referred to, that, in mv opinion, it was very desirable that buildings of a moderate character should be erected for the accommodation of the Parliament and its officers, and that, after a while, these buildings might stand as a suburb of the city finally to be built. I have gone further than that, and have discussed the matter with a well-known New South Wales ^banker. My idea is that £500,000 might suffice for years to come for all the needs of this Federal Capital, and I asked the banker whether he thought it was possible to arrange for raising the money. As a New South Welshman, I am prepared to limit the proposal to that extent. I think it would be very desirable for whatever Government deals with this matter to look at it from beginning to end, and put solid proposals before Parliament, not only as to the site, but as to what is to be done when the site is selected, to meet the wants of the Federal Parliament for some years to come. That would be a statesmanlike position. I deprecate the views of Senator Dobson, and do not, like him, advocate what tends to delay or to defeat the intentions of the Bill. But, at the same time, his objections with regard to expenditure ought to be met, and I am prepared, as one New South Wales senator, to meet them.

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– Is the honorable senator prepared to meet them by voting for Senator Dobson’s amendment?

Senator PULSFORD:

– It is not very likely. Senator Dobson wishes to put the Bill in the waste-paper basket for the present.

Senator Dobson:

Senator FINDLEY:

– Yes ; and the strong argument which is used by advanced democrats in. New Zealand is that these leases are obtained at a certain price, and no matter what amounts are expended by the Government in constructing railways and building bridges, and thus enhancing the value of the lands, they are not revalued, and no additional taxation is imposed on the lease-holders. Recently the Premier of Western Australia urged strong reasons in favour of the nationalization of land. Speaking at Fremantle on the 6th April last on his policy, Mr. James said -

Long leases would be sold of town-site blocks, which would give security of tenure, and at the same time secure to the State, after a time* a constantly increasing revenue in the shape of portion of the unearned increment, which now went into the pockets of private indi* victuals.

The proposed area of 900 square miles for the Federal territory is wholly inadequate. . I think that the Senate would be wise, and that future generations would see the wisdom which it manifested at this period of its existence, if it carried the amendment I intend to submit later on to provide that the area shall be not less than 5,000 square miles. That area belonging to all the citizens of the Commonwealth, would perhaps in the course of half a century yield rentals sufficient to meet the expenditure that would be incurred in connection with the Commonwealth Government.

Senator MULCAHY:
Tasmania

– I think that the remarks made by Senator Dobson, however they may be’ disagreed from by honorable senators, fairly echo the present opinions of his constituents. I make that statement quite frankly, although I do not intend to support his amendment. I differ from my honorable friends on your right, sir, because I do not always believe that the voice of public opinion should be followed by a person placed in a responsible and representative position. I know that the people of Tasmania generally are. under the impression that if we now decide on the location of the Federal Capital site that decision will be immediately followed by some very rash and extravagant expenditure. That is their real dread, but whatever their opinion may be, it seems to ma that Tasmania, as one of a number of States, made a fair and honorable compact, with New South Wales, and that the keeping of that compact ought not to be delayed. Apart from that consideration, there is a business aspect to be considered. Inasmuch as we are to get practically for nothing a certain area of land so far as it is owned by the State, it stands to reason, that it would be a good business thing for us to select the area while we have the largest possible amount of territory to select from, and not to delay the selection until we shall have to purchase from private owners the land which, so far as it is State-owned, can now be got for practically nothing. I regret very much that in this matter the Government have followed the example of their predecessors, which, in my opinion, was not a good one.

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– Was not the honorable senator a supporter of the previous Government ?

Senator MULCAHY:

– I did net come into the Senate as the supporter or opponent of any Government, and we have enough of party government elsewhere. What we have a right to expect from the Government is a decision by that body on important matters which are submitted to the Senate. The previous Government contained a member for Bombala, and a member for Tumut who, I believe, tried to be a member for another possible site at the same time. Possibly other members of the Government represented other localities. Honorable gentlemen occupying a position as members of His Majesty’s Government ought to be members for Australia, and not for any particular district. One of the great features of the present Government Party is that they agreed upon- principles and upon important measures, and vote en bloc for whatever the majority decides in favour of. I do not know that that is justifiable in the case of private members, but it is a principle which should rule in the Cabinet, and honorable senators and honorable members of another place had, I think, a right to expect that the honorable gentleman intrusted with the responsibility of Government should have accepted it fully, and have been prepared to recommend the selection of a particular site to the Federal Parliament as the best that could be selected.

Senator de Largie:

– The honorable senator does not believe in a number of parties in Parliament, and yet he desires to make this a party question.

Senator MULCAHY:

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– Is the honorable senator’s objection to a territory within a territory ?

Senator MULCAHY:

– I say that the matter is of so much importance that we should know what is the intention of the Government regarding it. If the Government propose to acquire a great deal more territory than is necessary for the establishment of the Federal Capital, the Senate is entitled to know what purpose the Government have in view. The question has been raised whether we have the right, in an Act of this Parliament, to declare the area of territory we require. O.n that point I am prepared to take the advice of honorable senators who have given more study to the Constitution than I have.. It would appear that the Government, in asking for a large area, have some other object in view, in addition to the establishment of the Federal Capital. I am not saying whether they are right or wrong, but if that is their intention, we should know it. I call the attention of honorable senators to section 122 of the Constitution, which provides -

The Parliament may make laws for the government of any territory surrendered by any State to, and accepted by, the Commonwealth, or of any territory placed by the Queen, under the authority of, and accepted by, the Commonwealth, or otherwise acquired by the Commonwealth -

The Commonwealth has power to acquire territory only for Commonwealth purposes, and it will naturally have power to govern its own territory ; but we have not the right, as a Commonwealth Parliament, to acquire as much of the territory of a State as we please. We must show some good reason for demanding the acquisition of territory.

Senator de Largie:

– Who is to decide the point ?

Senator MULCAHY:

– I presume that the High Court would decide it if it ever arose. The section continues - and may allow the representation of such territory in either House of the Parliament to the extent and on ‘the terms which it thinks fit.

It seems to me that that section permits the Federal Parliament to create a State subject to certain conditions ; but if honorable senators will look a little further on they will find that section 124 provides - .

– They will be bought out.

Senator MULCAHY:

– Is it proposed that we shall take away the little homesteads of these people whether we require them or not?

Senator Findley:

– Compensation will be given if we want the land.

3P2

Senator TURLEY:

Senator McGREGOR:

– In the other direction - from Bairnsdale to the New South Wales border - I maintain that the country is thoroughly worthy of development. Better authorities than I am have declared as much. The route for that railway has been surveyed. When the survey was made there was no talk of establishing the Commonwealth Seat of Government across the border. Why did the Victorian Government spend money on having three surveys made? Was it not for the purpose of developing that country, independently of whether the Federal Capital was established in the neighbourhood ? If the value of the country was in the minds of the Victorian experts when they recommended surveys, is it not more worthy of development when the Seat of Government of the Commonwealth is established in Southern Monaro? When the railway from Cooma to the Commonwealth territory, and the line from Bairnsdale to the New South Wales border are constructed, the Commonwealth itself will provide railways within its own territory. But the Commonwealth has. no right to be charged with the cost of establishing railway connexion from Bairnsdale to Delegate, or from Cooma to the Federal territory. Those matters affect the States. Honorable senators are aware that it is not within the power of the Commonwealth, except with the consent of the States, to build an inch of railway outside its own territory. But I honestly believe that if the Seat of Government were decided upon and steps were taken for the purpose of establishing it finally, both New South Wales and Victoria, in their own interests, and to develop their own country, would hurry the construction of those lines. They would see which could get there first. Of course New South Wales has a very greatadvantage, but Victoria, with her energy would no doubt soon overtake the larger State. Senator Dobson is continually grumbling. I do not intend to dilate on the necessity for a seaport, although I believe in it myself. It will be time enough when the second reading of the Bill is carried to deal with that. But I cannot help alluding to such grumbling senators as Senator Dobson and Senator Fraser - although I do not put Senator Fraser in the same category with Senator Dobson, with the idea of suggesting that he grumbles half as much. I interjected when Senator Dobson was speaking, that his first attempt to move an amendment, or even the amendment which is now before the Senate, was for the purpose of killing somebody, whilst not being accused of murder and hanged for it. That is, the position in which he puts himself. Senator Fraser and Senator Dobson tell us that before we pass a Bill of this description we ought to negotiate with the New South Wales Government. For the purpose of doing what? The first question that would be asked would be what site do you intend to decide on. There are so many eligible sites in New South Wales that the Government of that State would require to know what site we intended to decide on before they could enter into negotiations with us. These honorable senators remind me of a thoughtful parent ordering a suit of clothes for his child before it is born, when he does not know whether it will need a pair of breeches or a skirt. That is exactly the position they are in. How can we negotiate with New South Wales until we can say - “ This is the place that we wish to negotiate about “ ? It is our duty as a Parliament to pass the Bill, and then to enter into negotiations with New South Wales. I hope that we shall soon get into Committee on the Bill, and when honorable senators get tired of Committee work - I know that many honorable senators wish to have a look at one thing and another elsewhere -

I shall be prepared to report progress. It is the desire of the Government, I may say, that this Bill and the Fraudulent Trade Marks Bill should be carried through the Senate as- speedily as possible. If this Bill is passed, and fair progress is made with the other Bill, seeing that we have only one-half the senators here, and so much time has been wasted in another place, it may be considered advisable to give honorable senators an adjournment rather than to ask them to meet here for one or two days in the week to do only a small amount of business. I think they will all agree that it would be better to have a substantial adjournment, and to come back when they could be fully employed.

Senator Trenwith:

– Until Christmas?

Senator McGREGOR:

– I do not intend to agree to any suggestion of that sort. I hope that the amendment of Senator Dobson will be defeated, and that the Bill will be read a second time, and taken into Committee.

Question- That the word “now,” proposed to be left out, be so left out - put. The Senate divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. , Original question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clause 1. (Short title.)

Senator DOBSON:
Tasmania

– May I ask Senator McGregor whether he intends to proceed with this very important measure, without giving the information which some of us have asked for, and which Senator Pulsford, with a great deal of candour and sincerity, for which I thank him, has said that we ought to have? The senator from New South Wales has at last put those of us who object to the early selection of a site in a proper and fair position. He intimated that he does recognise now that there are certain pieces of information which are of great importance, and he thinks that the citizens of the other States have a perfect right to understand the intentions of the Government, to know on what terms they think that they can secure this land, what money they intend to spend, and how long they propose to take to spend it.

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

– I rise to order. I submit, sir, that the honorable and learned senator must confine his remarks to the clause before the Committee.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I have to rule that the observations of Senator Dobson are not strictly relevant to the clause.

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · South Australia · ALP

– I think that Senator Dobson will recognise that on clauses 2, 3, and 4, he will have plenty of opportunity for discussing all the details that are in the Bill.

Senator Dobson:

– Does my honorable friend intend to proceed with this clause?

Senator McGREGOR:

– 1 have already said that if honorable senators will pass the formal clauses I shall agree to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

Senator Dobson:

– On this day six months ?’

Senator McGREGOR:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

– Senator Millen has not suggested a discussion of the kind on clause 2, nor has the honorable senator initiated such a discussion. He has, in a friendly way, discussed the suggestion of the Vice-President of the Executive Council as to the course of business, and asks that between now and the resumption of the Committee to-morrow, the Government will consider the course which ought to be pursued in regard to clause 2. Attention has been directed to what occurred last year, when there was an exhaustive ballot taken in order that the views of every section of the Senate might be ascertained, and that we might not be placed in the awkward position, to which the honorable senator has referred, of amendments in favour of one site being defeated by a combination of all honorable senators in’ favour of other sites. Senator Millen desires that possible combinations of honorable senators in favour of different sites to defeat those in favour of a particular site should be prevented.

Senator McGREGOR:

– I point out to Senator Symon that I propose simply to carry clause’ 1, and then, after allowing the next clause to be put to the Committee, .to ask honorable senators to state the amendments which they propose to move. I shall then ask leave to report progress ; and, between this time and the resumption of the Committee to-morrow, every consideration will be given to the suggestions of Senator Millen, and everything will be done that we can do to dear the way for ‘a legitimate decision of the Senate.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2 -

It is hereby determined that the Seat of Government of the Commonwealth shall be within twenty-five miles of , in the State of New South Wales.

Senator PEARCE (Western Australia).^ I wish to move an amendment upon clause 2.

Senator Millen:

– T thought the VicePresident of the Executive Council intended to report progress.

Senator McGregor:

– So I will. When honorable senators have announced the amendments they intend to propose, so that we may have an opportunity of considering them.

Senator Millen:

– The moving of amendments is just what I desired to avoid.

Senator PEARCE:

– If it can be shown that the amendment which I intend to move will prevent the proper transaction of business, I shall be prepared to withdraw it. It is as follows : -

That the words “twenty-five miles of,” line 3, be left out with n view to insert in lieu thereof the following words : - “ an area bounded on the north by a line running parallel with, and twelve miles south of, the thirty-sixth parallel of smith latitude.”

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:
South Australia

– I ask the Chairman not to put that amendment yet, because I would point out that, if it is put from the Chair, it becomes the property of the- Committee, and any single member of the Senate .can then object to its withdrawal. It is perfectly clear that what Senator McGregor proposed to do was to allow us to have an exhaustive ballot to-morrow, or, at all events, to consider the course to be pursued. It would, therefore, be very much better not to have any amendment submitted at the present moment.

Senator McGregor:

– It was not my desire that any amendment should be submitted now;

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

– Senator Pearce will see that, if he were to move his amendment now, he would complicate matters exceedingly. If he succeeded in striking out the words “ twenty-five miles of,” it would humbug the whole clause. If the honorable ‘ senator’s subsequent amendment were defeated, we should have to insert some other limit, or recast the clause altogether. I suggest, foi- the honorable senator’s consideration, that .he should move his amendment in another form. He should not move to strike out the words “ twenty-five miles of,” but that the words which he has read should be inserted after the word “ within.” If that amendment is defeated, the words of the clause will then remain as they are.

Senator Pearce:

– I am prepared to accept the suggestion.

Senator WALKER:
New South Wales

– I desire to indicate that it is my intention to move certain amendments1 in the clause.

I do not propose to interfere with the words “ twenty-five miles of,” but I propose to move that, after the blank, the words “ or within twenty-five miles of- “ be inserted, and I then propose to add, at the end of the clause, the words “ leaving it to the Parliament of the State of New South Wales to decide as to which of these sites shall be granted to the Government of this Commonwealth;” Progress reported.

Senate adjourned at 9.20 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 1 June 1904, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1904/19040601_senate_2_19/>.

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Senate 1 June 1904

QUESTION

INDUSTRIALISM AND EDUCATION

Senator DOBSON:TASMANIA

Senator McGREGOR:Vice-President of the Executive Council · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

FEDERAL AND STATE ELECTIONS

Senator DOBSON:

Senator MCGREGOR:ALP

Senator Dobson:

Senator PEARCE:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator Dobson:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator Dobson:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator PEARCE:

Senator Dobson:

Senator McGREGOR:

QUESTION

SUBLETTING OF POST OFFICES

Senator FINDLEY:VICTORIA

Senator MCGREGOR:ALP

QUESTION

SUMMER SESSIONS

Senator PEARCE:

Senator MCGREGOR:ALP

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION ACT

Senator GUTHRIE:SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator MCGREGOR:ALP

Senator GUTHRIE:

Senator McGREGOR:

PAPERS.

SEAT OF- GOVERNMENT BILL

Second Reading

Senator DOBSON:Tasmania

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator Mulcahy:

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator DAWSON:QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator DAWSON:QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Lt Col NEILD:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

The PRESIDENT:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Millen:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Millen:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Millen:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Millen:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Millen:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Lt Col Neild:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Pulsford:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Lt Col NEILD:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Trenwith:

Senator DOBSON:

Senator Matheson:

Senate
1 June 1904

Senator DOBSON:
TASMANIA

Senator McGREGOR:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

Senator PEARCE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

Senator GUTHRIE:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator MCGREGOR:
ALP

Senator DOBSON:
Tasmania

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator Lt Col NEILD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Senator Lt Col NEILD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator WALKER:
New South Wales

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator STYLES:
Victoria

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP

Senator DAWSON:
QUEENSLAND · ALP