House of Representatives
14 March 1941

16th Parliament · 1st Session

  1. House of Representatives
  2. 16th Parliament
  3. 1941

Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. M. Nairn) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 57

QUESTION

SERVICE BOOTS AND SHOES

Mr McCALL:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the attention of the Minister for the Army been directed to a statement in this morning’s press that Mr. McEvoy, the managing director of Fostars Shoes Proprietary Limited, has denied the allegation that his firm used a counterfeit government stamp on military hoots, and’ demands a public inquiry ? Is it the intention of the Minister to grant such an inquiry, or to institute a prosecution immediately?

Mr SPENDER:
Minister for the Army · WARRINGAH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I have read the report referred to by the honorable member. The intention of the Government is to take whatever steps it is advised are necessary.

Mr WARD:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will any inquiry which the Government may hold into the hoot scandal be made retrospective to cover the period when Mr. S. G. Gill, who was then the chief boot inspector of the department in New South Wales, was compelled to leave the Commonwealth Public Service because he refused to pass boots which were not up to specification?

Mr SPENDER:

– As I indicated on Wednesday, inquiries are proceeding with every despatch. As to the steps to be taken apart from any action against individuals, that is a matter which will depend largely on the advice tendered to the Government, and the result of the inquiries. I propose to seek an appointment on Monday next with the Deputy Crown Solicitor in Sydney, and the police officers who are conducting the inquiry, and the request of the honorable member will then be given consideration.

page 57

QUESTION

APPLES AND PEARS

Mr FROST:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– Will the Assistant Minister for Commerce state the reason why only one representative of Tasmania has been appointed to the Apple and Pear Marketing Board, in view of the fact that Tasmania produces 60 per cent, of the apples exported from Australia ? Will he also state why Western Australia and Victoria have each two representatives and Queensland, South Australia, Tas mania and New South Wales one each, and why the representative of Tasmania occupies only a minor position?

Mr ANTHONY:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The honorable member has not correctly stated the facts. The Commonwealth Apple and Pear Marketing Board consists of one representative from each State of the Commonwealth. In addition, there is a chairman and a deputy chairman, whose appointments were made without regard to State boundaries at all. It happens that the chairman comes from Victoria and the deputy chairman from Western Australia. Each State has equal representation on the board.

Mr Frost:

– Will Western Australia and Victoria have two votes each?

Mr ANTHONY:

– The chairman and the deputy chairman are not representatives of the States.

page 57

QUESTION

CHILD ENDOWMENT

Mr POLLARD:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

– In view of the many rumours and reports about a recent meeting of the United Australia party, will the Acting Prime Minister say whether it is a fact that the Government has “ murdered “ its child endowment scheme ? If it is not a fact, will the Government introduce the scheme this session, next session, or at any time during the life of the present Parliament?

Mr FADDEN:
Treasurer · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · CP

– The child endowment scheme is robust and healthy, and will be introduced.

page 57

QUESTION

TAXATION OFFICE IN NORTHERN TASMANIA

Mr GUY:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

– In view of the great inconvenience and expense incurred by taxpayers owing to the closing of the taxation office in Northern Tasmania, will the Acting Prime Minister confer with the Premier of that State with a view to reestablishing the office ? Failing the setting up of a branch office, will he urge the establishment of an office where taxes may be paid, and information in regard to taxes given?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– I shall give consideration to the matter.

page 57

QUESTION

SHIPBUILDING

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– With a view to removing the slight , discontent which exists in connexion with the Commonwealth Shipbuilding Commission, and because of the important part played by boilermakers in the construction of ships, will the Government consider adding to the commission a member of the Boilermakers Society of Australia ?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– The subject-matter of the honorable member’s question has been fully considered by the Government. The policy of the Government as to the personnel of the commission will not be departed from.

Mr CONELAN:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development say whether all of the ships to be built under the Government’s programme for ship construction, for which £6,000,000 has been allocated for the construction of nineteen ships, will be steel vessels, or whether any of them are to be -wooden ships?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I can speak of the matter only in general terms. The object, I understand, is to build, approximately, 10,000-ton liners of a certain speed, and the vessels are to be constructed of steel. I shall ascertain whether any provision has been made for the construction of vessels of lesser tonnage or of wooden ships, and the information will he supplied to the honorable member.

page 58

QUESTION

DRIED FRUITS

Mr BREEN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the fact that buyers have stopped buying President plums, a variety suitable for making prunes, will the Minister for Trade and Customs consider modifying the regulations relating to the export of dried fruits?

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Minister for Commerce · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The matter will receive consideration.

page 58

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION

Mr BADMAN:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP; CP from 1940

– Will the Minister representing the Postmaster-General statewhether the annual report and balance-sheet of the Australian Broadcasting Commission will be made available to the House before the proposed bill relating to the activities of the commission is introduced ?

Mr COLLINS:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for the Interior · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The PostmasterGeneral advises that the annual report and balance-sheet of the Australian Broadcasting Commission will be laid on the table of both Chambers on Wednesday next.

page 58

QUESTION

DEFENCE EXPENDITURE

Mr JOHNSON:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– In view of the small amount being expended in Western Australia on defence works, and in connexion with the war generally, will the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development request that steps be taken to see that, in future, Western Australia receives a greater share than it has in the past of the work offering ? Will the Minister also consider the advisability of establishing munition factories in that State?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I shall be glad to bring the subject-matter of the honorable member’s question before the Minister for Supply and Development.

page 58

QUESTION

ARMY CONTRACTS

Mr McCALL:

– I direct a question to the Minister for the Army regarding the operations of “ moncy-skinners “ “who intrude into army contracts. My question relates to a large number of contracts for army requirements. It is alleged that, owing to the Contracts Board requiring a percentage guarantee - I think the minimum amount is £500 - in respect of every contract let, a large number of small contractors are not able to provide this sum of money, and have had to resort to the assistance of financiers who charge exorbitant rates of interest. The fact is-

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must ask a question.

Mr McCALL:

– Will the Minister inquire immediately whether the operations of these financiers are bringing about an increase of the prices which tenderers submit to the Contracts Board in order to meet these exorbitant rates of interest? I also ask the Minister to inquire from the Commonwealth Bank whether some system of finance could be arrangedwith the bank for tenderers who are carrying out army contracts.

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– The matter raised by the honorable member falls within the province of my colleague, the Minister for Supply and Development. I shall discuss it with him, and endeavour to have a complete answer given to the honorable member.

page 59

QUESTION

BRITISH MINISTRY OF HEALTH PENSIONS

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Treasurer aware that many residents of this country, who have qualified for a contributory old-age pension from the Government of the United Kingdom, have not received the pension from Great Britain for the last nine months? In view of the hardship entailed, does not the Treasurer think that the British Government should be communicated with by cable, in order to ascertain whether the Commonwealth Government could act as its agent in this matter, in the same way as it acts as agent in respect of the payment of Imperial war pensions?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– On Wednesday, I answered a question on similar lines which was addressed to me by the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins). The matter is now receiving the attention of the Government which has been in communication with the Government of the United Kingdom with a view to adjusting the anomaly.

page 59

QUESTION

RATIONING OF NEWSPRINT

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Minister for Trade and Customs take an early opportunity to make a statement to the House on the latest transactions between the Government and Truth newspapers with reference to a certain newsprint ration; and in doing so, will he tell the House frankly whether any financial considerations are involved between the Government and any of these newspapers? In short, will he make a general statement on the subject, and tell us whether he now regards matters between him and some of the Sydney daily newspapers as “ square “ ?

Mr HARRISON:
Minister for Trade and Customs · WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I shall give full consideration to the questions raised by the honorable member, particularly the last request. If the Government is of the opinion that such information should be made available I shall supply it.

page 59

QUESTION

SALES TAX ON CHILDREN’S MEDICINE

Mr LAZZARINI:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Treasurer inform the House why the undertaking given, during the passage of the recent sales tax legislation, that the Government would annul the provision whereby children’s medicine is subject to sales tax, and dogs’ medicine is not, has not been carried out?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– I cannot remember whether such an undertaking was given. A promise was certainly made that the whole principle and incidence of the tax would be reviewed by a select committee of this Parliament. Consideration is now being given to the personnel and terms of reference of such’ a committee, which I hope, will be active in the near future.

page 59

SITTINGS OF PARLIAMENT

Mr CALWELL:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– Is the Acting Prime Minister aware that during 1940 the British House of Commons sat upon nine days in January, fourteen days in February, fourteen days in March-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! Honorable members are entitled to make statements only insofar as may be necessary to explain the questions they intend to ask. The honorable member may not make a long preliminary statement when asking a question.

Mr CALWELL:

– Is the Acting Prime Minister aware that during 1940 the British House of Commons met upon 141 days, while during the same period the Australian House of Representatives met upon 43 days? Can he explain why the British House of Commons meets so frequently and why the Australian House of Representatives meets so infrequently?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– I am not aware of the number of days upon which the British Parliament has sat, but I can appreciate that it would need to sit frequently, having regard to the fact that Britain is in the throes of a war which is partly being fought in the United Kingdom. If this country be not properly defended and looked after the Australian Parliament may need to sit upon 365 days in the year.

page 59

QUESTION

MORATORIUM

Mr ROSEVEAR:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Attorney-

General say whether it is the intention of the Government to make an early amendment of the moratorium regulations covering members of the Defence Forces? In view of the altered situation in regard to military trainees, the serious loss of income suffered by them, and the doubt as to whether they are covered by the existing moratorium provisions while they are not in camp, will the Attorney-General give special consideration to their position with a view to protecting their property?

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– This matter has received very careful consideration by the Government. We have drawn up provisions which we believe will adequately cover the points raised by the honorable member, especially those referring to the obligations of service men, and it is hoped that the amending provisions will operate at a very early date.

page 60

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Additional Office Accommodation - King George V. Memorial

Mr FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior lay on the table of the House the departmental files and papers in connexion with the proposal to erect administrative offices on the site of the future permanent Parliament House at Canberra, and also the report, if any, of the National Capital Planning and Development Committee on this matter? Further, as the duration of the present sittings may be short, will he lay those documents on the table before the House adjourns for Easter?

Mr COLLINS:
CP

– I shall bring the honorable member’s question under the notice of the Minister for the Interior. I understand that, in accordance with the usual practice, the papers will be laid on the table of the House.

Mr BARNARD:
BASS, TASMANIA

– Has the Acting Prime Minister had an opportunity to peruse the article in this morning’s Canberra Times headed, “ The City Plan, Mice and Men “ ? If so, can he say whether the charge of “ nibbling “ at the Griffin plan is justified? If he has not seen the article, which is an indictment of the present Government and its predecessors for departing from the Griffin plan, will he read it and make a statement onthe subject later?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– I have not seen the article referred to, but I shall peruse it.

Sir CHARLES MARR:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Assistant Minister representing the Minister for the Interior say what authority granted permission for the erection of the monument to the late King George V. on a site in front of Parliament House, which, under the Griffin plan, is reserved for other pur poses? I understand that Ministers have denied responsibility for its erection there? Did the Historical Memorials Committee suggest its erection in that position ?

Mr COLLINS:

– I anticipated that a question would be asked on this subject, and have prepared a statement upon it, which I ask leave to read. [Leave granted.’]

Early in 1936, a sub-committee of Cabinet, consisting of Sir George Pearce, Senator A. J. McLachlan, and Messrs. T. Paterson and J. A. J. Hunter, submitted a report recommending as follows : -

  1. That the memory of the late King George V. be perpetuated in Canberra by a group of symbolic statuary carried out in bronze.
  2. That the site for the memorial be on the vacant square immediately in front of Parliament House. 3. (a) That the statuary should be of such a nature as to symbolize the association of the King with thebirth and first 25 years of federation ; ( b ) the growth of the idea of Empire unity as a Commonwealth of Nations owing allegiance to one sovereign; and (c) by means of plaques or bas-reliefs associated with the statuary, commemorating the main events of Australia’s national life, such as, for instance, the first Federal Convention, the King as Duke of York opening the first Federal Parliament, Australia’s participation in the Great War, the Duke of York opening the First Parliament in Canberra.
  3. That there should not be a competition for designs, but that three or four sculptors within the Empire be invited to submit designs and that fees be paid for such designs. An Australian artist should be included in the list.
  4. That on receipt of such designs the Government, with the assistance of a technical committee of advisers, choose the design to be adopted.
  5. That the statuary be known as “ The King George V. Memorial “.

These recommendations were approved by Cabinet on the 10th March, 1936, and action was taken by Senator Sir George Pearce, on behalf of the Prime Minister, to invite three Australian sculptors, namely, Messrs. G. Rayner Hoff, Paul Montford and W. L. Bowles, to submit designs embodying the features mentioned above, and on the understanding that an architect would be associated with the sculptor in the execution of his design, the total cost of which was set down at £20,000. A. fee of 150 guineas was approved for payment to each of the sculptors for his preliminary design.

The three sculptors concerned agreed to the proposal, and the Cabinet subcommittee arranged for the appointment of a technical committee of advisers to select the most suitable of the designs when submitted for the memorial, namely, B. J. Waterhouse, Esq.,

  1. R.I.B.A., president of the Board of Architects, New South Wales; H. J. MacKennal, Esq., F.R.V.I.A., Commonwealth Works Director for Victoria;
  2. V. F. Mann, Esq., C.B.E., chairman of the Commonwealth Art Advisory Board; and Will Ashton, Esq., R.O.I., and Harold Herbert, Esq., members of the Commonwealth Art Advisory Board.

At this stage it was pointed out to the Prime Minister’s Department that all action in relation to national memorials was governed by the provisions of the National Memorials Ordinance 1928-31, under which all such proposals were required to be referred to the Canberra National Memorials Committee, whose approval is required. The responsible Minister (the Minister for the Interior) is required by the provisions of the ordinance to determine in accordance with the recommendations of the National. Memorials Committee.

Upon being advised to this effect, the Prime Minister’s Department handed the administration of this matter over to the Department of the Interior, and the Minister duly referred it to the National Memorials Committee. The committee consists of the following: - The Prime Minister (chairman), the Minister for the Interior, the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives, the Secretary to the Department of the Interior, the Assistant Secretary (Civil Administration), and two members appointed by the GovernorGeneral, namely, G. V. F. Mann, Esquire, of Sydney, and Professor Ernest Scott, of Melbourne (now deceased). The committee met on the 20th May, 1936, and forwarded the following resolution to the Minister for the Interior : -

That this committee approves that a group of statuary be erected in Parkes-place to symbolize the reign of the late King and his association with the Commonwealth Parliament.

The proposal was explained by the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson) in Parliament on the 17th August, 1936. The designs from the three sculptors were duly received, and were considered by the Technical Committee of Advisers. That submitted by G. Raynor Hoff, of Sydney, was finally Accepted on the advice of the committee, and a contract was arranged under which Mr. Raynor Hoff undertook to execute his design for the sum of £19,444. Mr. Raynor Hoff’s design provided for an architectural portion, comprising a platform in granite and freestone, a pylon providing bases for a bronze figure of King George V., and an equestrian figure of St. George in stone. The base of the pylon is to be treated with lettering and bronze medallions featuring the establishment of federation and Australia’s part in the Great War. The final details of the contract had hardly been arranged with Mr. Raynor Hoff, when he died suddenly. After arranging for the position to be investigated by the Technical Committee of Advisers, the Government approved that a commission to complete the memorial in’ accordance with Mr. Raynor Hoff’s design be given to Mr. J. E. Moorfield, sculptor, of Sydney. Mr. Moorfield had been associated with Mr. Raynor Hoff in the preparation of the design, and had been engaged by him in the draft contract to carry on the work, in the event of Mr. Raynor Hoff’s death. Mr. Moorfield agreed to accept the commission and carry out the contract at the price and under the conditions arranged with the late Mr. Raynor Hoff. The State Government agreed to grant Mr. Moorfield leave from his duties at the East Sydney Technical College to admit of the contract being carried out. Provision is made in the agreement for an architect to be associated with the sculptor, and for this purpose Mr. Harry Foskett, of Sydney, was selected, as he had previously been associated also with the late Mr. Raynor Hoff. Funds have been voted from year to year by Parliament to meet the progressive requirements of the work, and on several occasions full explanations of the scheme have been given in both Houses.

The present position is that the subcontract for the architectural portion of the memorial is now approaching completion and the design for the statue of the King has ‘been approved and cast in plaster, but, owing to the war, its transfer to Great Britain for casting in bronze has been deferred. The carving of the equestrian figure of St. George in stone is approaching completion in accordance with the clay model whichwas approved in the terms of the contract. The Technical Committee of Advisers has been retained to assist the department during the continuance of the contract, and it reports to the Minister regarding various incidental matters that arise, in collaboration with departmental officers. The site for the memorial is on the main axis of the city of Canberra. From an aesthetic point of view, it would have been difficult not to have located it on the main axis, in view of the decision to place it in front of Parliament House. In regard to the transverse axis, its position had to be considered in relation to the roads in the Griffin plan, and especially in relation to the permanent layout for the public buildings, including the permanent Parliament House and the administrative offices.

page 62

ABBCO BREAD COMPANY

Reportof Inspector-General of Administration

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– As I informed honorable members previously, I had called for a report from the Inspector-General of Administration in respect of the Abbco bread contract. I hoped that I would have had the full report in my possession by this time; however, the InspectorGeneral of Administration has informed me that it is impossible to furnish anything more than an interim report for the time being, but he hopes to make a full report available within a few days. In the meantime, I lay on the table the following papers: -

Abbco- Bread contract - Report by the InspectorGeneral of Administration, Department of Defence Co-ordination, 12th March, 1941.

Mr McCALL:

– In view of the importance of this matter; will the Acting Prime Minister ask the Minister for the Army to read the interim report to the House ?

Mr FADDEN:
CP

– No ;: I shall not.. The Minister for the Army is already overworked, and if honorable members are too lazy to read the report for themselves they do not deserve to know what it contains.

Later:

Mr SPEAKER:

– I am advised that copies of the report are being made, and will be available to honorable members within a few minutes.

Mr FORDE:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– As the report on the Abbco bread case is of such great interest to honorable members generally, and no motion that it be printed has been submitted, will the Minister for the Army ask leave to have the report incorporated in Hansard? Alternatively, will the Minister read the report to the House?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– The report is so long that I am not prepared to read it to the House, but I am quite agreeable that it be incorporated inHansard.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Frequently, after leave has been given to incorporate reports in Hansard, the Principal Parliamentary Reporter is confronted with difficulties which honorable members had not foreseen when they gave leave. However, the question is one. for the House to decide.

Mr Rosevear:

– I rise to a point of order. All we know at the moment concerning this document is that it deals insome way with the Abbco bread contract. I submit that it is quite out of order for the Minister to ask for the incorporation in Hansard of a report of. whose contents no indication has been given to honorable members.

Mr Bell:

– I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the correct procedure is for the Minister to move that the report be printed. In doing so, he may read it; it would then be incorporated in Hansard.

Motion (by Mr. Spender) proposed -

That the paper be printed.

Motion (by Mr. Archie Cameron) negatived -

That the debate be now adjourned.

Mr CURTIN:
Leader of the Opposition · Fremantle

– We are asked, in effect, to examine this paper, although we have not had an opportunity to study it. If the debate had been adjourned the motion would have been placed upon the notice-paper, and we possibly would not reach it again this session unless the Acting Prime Minister (Mr.Fadden) saw fit to allow us to do so. The House desires to have the document read; then, having heard its contents, honorable members wish to discuss what is revealed in it.

Mr SPENDER:
Minister for the Army · Warringah · UAP

– I desire to clarify the position. Two days ago, I indicated that I hoped late this week to receive a full report upon the matter. So far, that report has not come to hand; but I considered that there was sufficient meat in the interim report temporarily to satisfy honorable members. The Government does not desire to burke a discussion of the contents of the report at the earliest possible moment.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– I rise to order. I should like you, Mr. Speaker, to . inform me whether the Minister’s speech, this being his second essay, will close the debate.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Yes. When the mover replies, he closes the debate upon the motion.

Mr SPENDER:

– That being so, 1 ask leave to read thedocument. [Leave granted.’] The report, which is addressed to the Minister for the Army, and dated the 12th March, 1941, is as follows : -

page 63

RE ABBCO BREAD CONTRACT

Pursuant to War Cabinet minute of the 5th March, 1941, and your verbal instructions of the 7th and 11th March, 1941, I have advanced my investigations in connexion with this subject to a stage sufficiently to be able to supplyyou with the following information : -

With regard to the propriety of accepting this further tender for the supply of bread from the Abbco company, there is nothing to indicate in the files that anyserious consideration was given ‘to the Abbco company’s previous misdemeanour, except that in the letter written by the District Contract Board, Sydney, to the Contract Board, Melbourne, dated 19th July, which referred to the penalty of £1.438 15s. imposed on the Abbco Bread Company for having supplied bread under contract deficient in weight. This P.S. was attached to the letter referring to the recommendation for acceptance of R. J. White’s tender. White, as already mentioned, fell down on his obligation. There is nothing otherwise to show any concern in giving a contract to the Abbco company at that period.

I am inclined to believe that the intention of clause ( 1 ) of specifications was so designed as to cover quality, and not refer to weight.

Clause (3) refers to the type of loaf being 4 lb. in weight.

Clause (5) apparently appreciates the likelihood of a variation in the weight of bread at time of delivery, in that it asks for each loaf to weigh 4 lb. or as near as possible.

The Abbco Company was convicted on a State charge that they had manufactured bread of an incorrect weight per loaf. It is claimed, however, by the Army that we only pay for the quantity ofbread received byweight, although I have not up to the presentbeen able to sight documentary evidence to satisfy myself that this is so. These investigations are still being pursued. I am unable to state whether or not the Army received its correct quantity of bread by bulk weight.

It further refers to the weight of each loaf being either 2 or 4 lb. as near as possible. This amendment certainly confirms my interpretation of the original specifications where the Army were mostly concerned with the quality in clause (1) and approximate weight per loaf in clause (5).

I have to state that the Abbco Company have not supplied any bread to the department since the termination of their contract on the 31st October, 1940. Instructions have been given by the Contract Board that should they at any time submit the lowest tender, the matter is to be referred to the Board before acceptance.

In regard to ordering bread, the practice in the past has been to use the telephone the night before. 1 have been unable to find any documentary confirmation of such telephonic communication. I consider that bread should be weighed in bulk and that only such bulk weight be paid for. The system of “ stab “ checking is unreliable. I propose to draw the Minister’s notice to further matters on completion of securing the necessary evidence and perusing the documents coming to hand.

Bankrupted 25th September, 1934: not yet discharged; has not applied for discharge.

Trading, in partnership with Margaret Shirbin, as Herbert Rigney & Co., 160 Castlereaghstreet, Sydney, as general brokers - in reality, money-lenders. He was originally in partnership with Mr. Shirbin, who put £2,500 into the business. Rigney put in nothing, but did the work. Shirbin was a sleeping partner. When Shirbin died, Mrs. Shirbin carried on the partnership and put in another £500.

The bankruptcy order was on direction of Chartres Trading Company -

Most of these assets were in the form of book debts which were regarded by the court as irrecoverable.

The joint account has paid 8d. in the £1.

Mrs. Shirbin applied for and was granted her discharge on 26th September, 1938.

Extract from Official Assignee’s report - “The cause of bankruptcy would appear to be losses incurred in carrying on the money-lending business, due, in my opinion, to a large extent, to incompetent management, lack of knowledge of trade results and excessive drawings.” “ That the bankrupts have brought on and contributed to their bankruptcy by culpable neglect of their business affairs.”

I wish it tobe understood that this is in the nature of a preliminary report, and 1 am making every endeavour to get a verification of documents and statements so that something more conclusive can be forwarded to you in the course of the next few days. You will appreciate that many files and reports have had to be considered and assimilated, and a plan developed to check the same. It has entailed considerable investigation by my staff in Sydney, and much telephonic communication over the three days which have so far been occupied in gathering data. (Sigd.) M. D. Davies,

Inspector-General of Administration

page 65

ABBCO BREAD COMPANY PROPRIETARY LIMITED

Bread Issue, 11th June, 1940; Consumption. 12th June, 1940

As instructed I proceeded to the above contractors’ premises at 1000 hours on Tuesday morning the 11th inst., and remained there until the balance of bread for issue was weighed by inspectors from the Weights and Measures Department. The result, according to the Officer-in-charge, from the said department, was as follows: -

Total number of 4-lb. loaves weighed = 3282 - 13,128 lb.

Deficiency in weight, 360 lb.

I would point out that the last lot of bread was weighed for delivery to the D.I.D. Showground. This bread being just baked, was warm and practically all over weight. Bread amounting to 1947 lb. for the R.R.D. Section, Showground, was delivered prior to the arrival of the Inspectors in question.

I would also point out that any deficiency was made up by the contractors.

Dated at Sydney this fourteenth day of June, 1940. (Sgd.) C. R. Bray, Lieut.

page 65

AUSTRALIAN MILITARY FORCES - EASTERN COMMAND

Head-quarters, 12th Supply Personnel Company,

Chapel-street, Marrickville, 10th March, 1941.

Major C. Pike-

As requested, I am hereunder setting out a recapitulation dealing with events leading up to, and action taken thereafter, in connexion with the Abbco Bread Company’s court proceedings.

I made my first issue from the District Supply Depot, then stationed at White Bay, on the 12th February, 1940. For the first month period Lieutenant R. E. Callaghan, one of my officers, carried out the inspection and test weight checking of bread at Abbco bakery. From time to time it came under my notice that certain master bakers had a grouse against the contractors, and also heard of several allegations. As Supply OfficerinCharge, I deemed it a duty that I should personally control the acceptance of bread, and I then personally visited the bakery daily, for the purpose of making or supervising a test check, and whenever the test check revealed that the weight of loaves was short in all cases extra bread was demanded and supplied by the contractors. Furthermore, I arranged with the contractors to daily bake between 200 and 300 lb. of bread of the loaf type specified by the Defence Department in order that no delay would be caused in cases of short weight, and also in order to satisfy supplementary indents received from units, as on occasions I found it necessary to accept fancy type loaves in order to satisfy my demands. Furthermore, I have instructed my bread issuer to, at all times, attend the bakery and check the weights as loaves were taken from ovens. For your information I attach hereto copy of his report, under date 14th May, 1940 (copy marked “A”).

On attached you will also note specimen “B” under date 4th June, 1940, which seta out the poundage of bread and distribution thereof, which was received in lieu of short weight on a basis of reckoning each loaf at 4 lb., also specimen “C” under date 11th June, 1940, showing extra bread received, which was in excess of amount reported as short weight by weights and measures inspectors.

As from 12th June, 1940. the day after the check weight by inspectors, the total quantity of bread has been weighed, and you will note from specimen “ D “ that 16 lb. extra was claimed.

I would also mention that Captain Adams, the Senior Supply Officer of the 2nd Division, has, as far back as April-May, 1940, discussed with me the possibilities of making bread a loaf, and not a poundage, issue, as on one occasion in particular, during the latter pare of April or early May, he complained that after his bread issuers had completed the divisional issue, reckoning each loaf as 4 lb., he found that a surplus of between 40 and SO loaves existed. This, I would point out, was caused by the issue of extra loaves in order to satisfy my test check result as during that period 10 per cent, of the loaves taken at random from the conditioning racks were weighed, average weight accepted, or extra bread demanded. You will note that the weights and measures check was not made until the 11th June, 1940.

Court Case. - I was subpoenaed by Abbco Bakery to appear at the Glebe Police Court, and before doing so I interviewed Captain Head of the Army Legal Section for the purpose of ascertaining my position as an army officer. He explained same and also advised me that privilege could be claimed in certain instances. I did so, and immediately the Magistrate appeared to treat me as a hostile witness. I stated during my evidence that I was there under subpoena. Furthermore, I had difficulty in satisfying the prosecutor, who was the weights and measures inspector, that I was entitled to pass credit for approximately 2,000 lb. of bread delivered to the Detail Issue Depot at the R.A.S. Showground without having to inspect same. This quantity of bread, in order to suit the military requirements, was delivered between 7.0 a.m. and 7.30 a.m. by the contractor, and was received and checked by a responsible officer who was the active Supply Officer for the Metropolitan District. It was on receipt of his receipt that the said amount was passed.

I consider that the Magistrate’s report to the State Minister that my main concern was to cover up the neglect of myself and staff was most unfair, as at all times my paramount concern has been to police the conditions of military contracts, and I say, without hesitation, in Addition to my seniors, every officer. N.C.O. and soldier who has been under my command since the commencement of White Bay Depot, would bear me out in this regard. Also, an unbiased opinion from the various contractors I have dealt with, would no doubt make such an admission.

My bread issuer, Sergeant B. Benjamin, was subpoenaed by the Weights and Measures Department, and he reported to me that Mr. Allen, of that department, who was the prosecutor, approached him stating, “You can go home. I do not want you. “ This was after, according to Benjamin, he had refused to have a drink with Allen. I asked Benjamin why he was not called as a witness and he said to me that the gentleman with Mr. Allen knows me, and I said, “ Who is he ? “, and he replied, “ A chap by the name of Mahr, a brother of Gar’trell White’s manager. “

The present contract is held by Gartrell White Limited, and the period of same is from 1st November, 1940, to 30th April, 1941. Bread has not been received from the Abbco Bakery since 1st November, 1940. 1 am also attaching for your perusal a statement from Lieut. Callaghan. I would mention that a check was not made by myself or staff on the day check was made by the Inspectors. I gave instructions to rely on their figures. (Sgd.) H. J. Rigney, Major, O.C. 12th Supply Personnel Company.

P.S. - I am also attaching for your perusal a copy of Lieut. Bray’s report. You will note that the loaves fresh from ovens were overweight, which is an indication that some lost weight quickly. - H.J.R.

14th June, 1940.

Captain J. J. Rigney, M.C., Supply Officer, District Supply Depot, White Bay.

I, the undersigned, LieutenantR. E. Callaghan, desire to make the following statement: -

  1. I am a Lieutenant in the Eastern Command Army Service Corps.
  2. For approximately one month after the opening of the District Supply Depot at White Bay I was attached thereto as Assistant Supply Officer.
  3. Part of my duties included the inspection each morning of the bread which was to be issued to the various Supply Columns. 4, Each morning I attended the factory of the Abbco Bread Company Limited and weighed in½-cwt. lota, loaves of bread taken at random from the various racks. In some cases I found small shortages of weight and in others it was noticed that the bread was overweight. I would say, on the average, that the weight of the bread as supplied could be averaged at approximately 4 lb. per loaf.

The morning after a complaint was received from the Second Divisional Army Service Corps Unit at Liverpool, I attended the factory and made a very extensive test check of the average weight of loaves awaiting issue and I found that in the majority of casuseach loaf was slightly over weight.

To satisfy the officer-in-charge of the Supply Column, I also made certain checks in his presence and satisfied him that the correct weights were being received.

In all cases when the bread was being weighed it had been baked several hours and was only slightly warm and quite fit for human consumption. (Sgd.) R. E. Callaghan, Lieutenant.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 67

QUESTION

APPLES

Dumping at Moore Park : Photograph in Sydney “Daily Telegraph”: Ministerial Statement - Marketing Control - Distribution to Children.

Mr ANTHONY:
Assistant Minister · Richmond · CP

– byleave - On the 11th March, the Sydney Daily Telegraph published an illustration headed “ Apple Pie Order and having under it the following descriptive matter : -

Lorry load of apples being tipped into the rubbish dump at Moore Park yesterday. Minister for Lands (Mr. Yeo) in Parliament last week threatened the Council with loss of control of the park if the tipping of market waste there did not cease.

The illustration and the words accompanying it conveyed the impression that at Moore Park there was a huge dump of apples, and that a lorry load of apples was being tipped into the dump. Knowing that, up to the present, only relatively small quantities of apples have gone on to the Sydney market, and those of high quality, the Commerce Department instructed the Apple and Pear Marketing Board to investigate the matter. An officer of the Apple and Pear Marketing Board in Sydney, Mr. Hewson, communicated with the chief photographer of the Daily Telegraph, who informed him that he had not taken the photograph, but that, at the earliest possible opportunity, he would make contact with the staff photographer who had taken it. About an hour later, Mr. Hewson rang the chief photographer again, and was informed that the staff photographer concerned had stated that the load contained apples. The matter was also taken up with the staff of the municipal council, and it was ascertained that the man who took the photograph did so in defiance of the officials at the dump at Moore Park. The photographer trespassed on the site of the dump without a permit. The officers on the spot endeavoured to check him, but he took the photograph in defiance of them. The photographer knew when he took the picture that the clump contained very few apples indeed. Mr. Hewson interviewed the chief cleansing staff officer, Mr. Bryant, and also the foreman cleansing officer of the city markets, Mr. Hackett, both of whom stated that the load shown in the picture had contained a very small proportion of apples.

Mr.Ward. - What else was in the load?

Mr ANTHONY:

– I point out that a huge quantity of fruit and vegetables goes into the Sydney markets daily, and that there is always a proportion of waste which has to be removed and dumped. Some of that waste is fruit that has gone bad or, for some other reason, has become unsaleable. The market overseer (Mr. George Boyd) informed Mr. Hewson that the proportion of apples in rubbish bins this year had been very much smaller than usual. I am in a position to inform the House that only very small quantities of apples have been taken from the markets to the dump at Moore Park. Apples rejected for fruit fly or codling moth are destroyed by boiling at the municipal destructor. I give the House this information to indicate that the photograph published in the Sydney Daily Telegraph, and the captions above and below it, convey a misleading impression. Apparently that was deliberately done for reasons best known to the newspaper itself.

Mr PERKINS:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The explanation given by the Assistant Minister is all right so far as it goes, but will the honorable gentleman assure honorable members that apples are not being allowed to rot under the trees in New South Wales because, under the apple and pear acquisition scheme, fruit which does not come up to certain requirements cannot be marketed?

Mr ANTHONY:

– Every effort is being made by the Apple and Pear Marketing Board to obviate loss of fruit during the coming season. It must be recognized, however, that the board is confronted with a difficult task in disposing of 11,000,000 cases of ordinary good apples on a market which, under normal conditions, has taken only 6,000,000 cases. Consequently, fruit of inferior quality which, in normal flush seasons, does not return the price of marketing, cannot find a market in the present circumstances.

Mr MORGAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Assistant Minister noted a report in this morning’s press to the effect that the Labour Government of New Zealand is providing an apple a day for every child attending schools in the dominion? Will the Commonwealth Government consider following that worthy precedent, and so ensure that apples will be given to school children throughout Australia in preference to pigs and cows?

Mr ANTHONY:

– The Government and the Apple and Pear Marketing Board are endeavouring to provide for as wide a distribution of apples as possible, and consideration is being given to the suggestion which the honorable member has just made. One of the difficulties in relation to the matter is that the present method of distributing the fruit is almost as great as the cost of producing it, and it is necessary to overcome the difficulty in connexion with distribution costs. Favorable consideration is being given to the proposal.

Mr WARD:

– Canthe Assistant Minister for Commerce say whether it is a fact that the Premier of New South Wales was prepared to meet the transportation and distribution costs of supplying apples to school children in certain districts of Sydney, but was unable to secure the fruit that he required? If so, why was the fruit not available ?

Mr ANTHONY:

– A considerable quantity of fruit has already been delivered to the Government of New South Wales for the purpose mentioned, but at the present time there is no glut of apples on the Sydney market, although, possibly, the market will be glutted within a short time. So far, apples have not come to hand in excess quantities.

Mr Ward:

-Four hundred cases of apples were destroyed in one orchard.

Mr ANTHONY:

– If the order has not been supplied in full, it is because apples of the standard grade arranged with the New South Wales Government were not available.

page 68

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Wednesday next at 3 p.m.

page 68

QUESTION

RETURNED SOLDIERS

Absorption into Industry.

Mr FALSTEIN:
WATSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– As special committees have been established in all States by theReturned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League of Australia to advise the Government concerning the employment of men returning from the war, will the Minister for the Army (Mr. Spender) give an assurance to the House that soldiers will be kept on army strength when they return until such time as they have beenproperly absorbed into industry ?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– That matter is now receiving consideration. I have had discussions with representatives of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League, and when I am in a position to make a statement on the subject I shall do so.

page 69

QUESTION

ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE INTERMENTS

Mr DEDMAN:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– la the Minister for the Air aware that relatives of members of the Royal Australian Air Force killed in flying accidents while undergoing training here have to pay the cost of the transport of the bodies from the scene of the accident to the place where the relatives desire interment to be made? Will the honorable gentleman take steps to ensure that in future such costs shall be borne by the Government, and that refunds shall be made in respect of such charges already made against relatives?

Mr McEWEN:
Minister for Air · INDI, VICTORIA · CP

– The substantive statement in the honorable member’s question is inaccurate. It is not correct to say that relatives of airmen killed in accidents in the course of their training are obliged to pay the cost of the transport of the bodies from the place of the accident to the place where they desire burial to be made. It is the practice of the Air Force to arrange that young men who die while in the service shall be buried at an appropriate place adjacent to the place where death occurred. The Royal Australian Air Force provides two firstclass return fares for relatives to attend the place of burial, and also bears the whole cost of the burial conducted in an appropriate manner. It occurs in certain instances, however, that the relatives desire the burial to be made near the deceased’s own home, or near the home of a relative. In such circumstances, it has been the practice of the Air Force, at least since I have been administering it, to allow the relatives towards the cost of such burial the cost that would have been incurred in removing the body to the place of interment intended by the Air Force, the cost involved in the actual interment, and also the amount of the two first-class return fares which would have been allowed the relatives if interment had been made at the place chosen by the Air Force authorities.

page 69

QUESTION

SHIPBUILDING : TOWNSEND REPORT

Mr GUY:

– On Wednesday I asked the Acting Prime Minister a question concerning the Townsend report on shipbuilding, but the honorable gentleman’s reply - that the report was being con sidered by the Shipbuilding Commission - showed that he misunderstood my question. I now ask the Minister for Trade and Customs when the report was handed to the Government, and when honorable members may expect to receive copies of it?

Mr HARRISON:
UAP

– The Townsend report was made to Cabinet, and was intended for Cabinet only. Cabinet has given consideration to the document, and I have no doubt that it will later be made available to the Shipbuilding Commission. If the honorable member desires further information concerning the report, and will .put a question in explicit terms on the notice-paper, I shall endeavour to furnish the information he desires.

page 69

QUESTION

METAL TRADES

Mr BEASLEY:
WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Minister for Labour and National Service noticed in this morning’s newspapers a report of comments attributed to Judge O’Mara in connexion with the metal trades case now before the court? Does the Minister think it necessary to make any statement on the judge’s comments? Does he consider that the refusal of the judge to hear the engine-drivers and firemen’s case has any relation to a statement made by the Minister concerning extra payments that are being made to men engaged on defence work and the manufacture of munitions?

Mr HOLT:
Minister for Labour and National Service · Fawkner · UAP

– by leave - I have noticed the report of the remarks stated to have been made by Judge O’Mara in court yesterday. I regret that the judge has apparently seen some discourtesy from myself to him in the failure to notify him formally of a conference which is to be held in Sydney next Monday. I need hardly give an assurance that no such discourtesy was intended by me. The facts in regard to the matter are these: At the last two meetings of the Trade Union Advisory Panel consideration was given to the desirableness of holding a comprehensive conference of representatives of the employers and employees in the metal trades and of the Ministry of Munitions and my own department. It was considered that in order to impart a greater degree of stability to the metal trades, it should be possible to make general arrangements on certain matters to meet the circumstances of the war period, but that the matters involved were such as the court could not or would not deal with. They included the restriction of the movements of skilled workers from one workshop to another, the fixing of maximum marginal rates, the placing of some restriction upon the right of employers to dismiss skilled workers unless such dismissal were subject to confirmation by the Dilution of Labour Committee, and the supervision of the influx of labour into the metal trades. It was considered desirable that a representative conference should discuss these matters with the object of reaching an agreement. It was quite clear, however, that such an agreement would not be practicable unless some consideration were given to certain other outstanding matters in relation to the metal trades. Obviously, for example, if the fixation of a maximum margin were discussed, it would also be necessary to discuss marginal rates. Two or three other matters, such as annual leave, crib time, shift allowances and the like, which have been causing some difficulty in the metal trades, should also be discussed. The judge himself suggested that the employers and employees should endeavour to reach an agreement on these matters, and he has recently adopted some agreements reached at conferences between employers and employees in the ironmoulding, ironworking and certain other sections of the iron trades. The information which reached me was that such conferences as had been held had, in some respects, proved inconclusive, largely because they were not sufficiently representative of all the employers and employees in the metal trades. Following the discussion that took place with the Trade Union Advisory Panel, it was decided that a conference should be held on Monday next, at which all sections, and particularly the States concerned, would be fully represented. Although matters relating to the metal trades award may be discussed by the conference, it is not intended that the conference should take authority from the court. The Government is in- terested in this matter, not only as the chief executive of the nation, but also as an employer of labour on a large scale and the purchaser of goods produced by the metal trades. The letter setting forth the matters to be discussed by the conference was not sent out by me. It was prepared in the department on the general instruction that I gave. Therefore, I am not in a position to refer to the matters to which the judge alluded. He had a telephone conversation with me, and my impression was that he was satisfied that the subjects to be discussed by the conference did not concern matters with which he would have to deal, and did not cut across the matters to go before the court. If any misunderstanding had arisen, as appeared from His Honour’s statement as reported in the press, I think the appropriate way to overcome it would have been for him to have discussed the matter with me as he did on a previous occasion. So far from wasting time, as the judge appears to have suggested, I believe that the conference will save a considerable amount of the time of both the Court and the employers and employees in the metal trades. It is my confident hope that the decision, which I am sure the conference will reach, will go a long way towards promoting improvement in the trades vitally concerned in the production of munitions.

page 70

QUESTION

WEIGHTS OF ARMY SUPPLIES

Mr BLAIN:
NORTHERN TERRITORY

– In view of the serious allegations made against certain army officers of failure to check the weights of food supplies for the defence services, will the Minister for the Army arrange that the senior cook of all cook-houses is supplied with scales and given authority to check the weights of all meat and other supplies after the cook has been furnished with the numbers on strength each day?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– Consideration will be given to the matter.

page 70

QUESTION

SCOURING OF WOOL

Mr CLARK:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister for Commerce consider the desirability of washing and carbonizing as much as possible of the Australian wool clip, so as to conserve shipping space and provide employment in country centres where there are unemployed?

Sir EARLE PAGE:
CP

– The chairman of the Central “Wool Committee has informed me that the committee is encouraging the scouring of wool to the greatest possible extent.

page 71

QUESTION

MAJOR-GENERAL SIR IAN MACKAY

Mr JAMES:

– Will the Minister for the Army state whether it is a fact that Major-General Mackay has been decorated for his activities in the Middle East campaign; if so, has the Government been advised by the army chiefs whether decorations for gallantry are to be awarded to other ranks who took part in the capture of Tobruk and Bardia ? Are not soldiers other than Major-General Mackay worthy of recognition, or does the Government .consider that that officer captured these towns “ on his pat “ ?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I regret the form in which the question was framed. His Majesty was pleased to confer a distinction on Major-General Mackay in recognition of his service in Libya, and 1 do not think that any honorable member will criticize that recognition. In due time recommendations will be made in respect of other officers and men who took part in the campaign, and no doubt they will be implemented.

page 71

QUESTION

HIDES INDUSTRY BOARD

Mr SHEEHAN:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Does the Minister for Commerce intend to place a representative of the leather exporters on the Hides Industry Board?

Sir EARLE PAGE:
CP

– Consideration will be given to the matter.

page 71

QUESTION

AERODROME AT CARDWELL

Mr MARTENS:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

– Over a year ago investigation was made of sites suitable for an aerodrome in the Tully district. As I understand that a site has been selected about two miles north of Cardwell, will the Minister for Air state whether anything has been done in regard to the construction of an aerodrome there ?

Mr McEWEN:
CP

– I shall have full inquiries made into the matter and furnish a reply to the honorable member.

page 71

QUESTION

PRODUCTION OF COPPER

Mr FORDE:

– In view of the shortage of copper in Australia to meet local requirements, and the fact that there are several copper mines that could be reopened with government assistance, will the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development, state what is being done by the Government to encourage an increase of the local production of copper?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– Several questions, have been asked regarding copper production, and I shall suggest to the Minister for Supply and Development that he furnish me with a general statement for submission to the House.

page 71

QUESTION

ARMY APPOINTMENTS

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– In view of the disclosures made of the business antecedents of Captain Rigney and the possibility of men holding positions in the Army where they might be tempted to engage in corrupt practices, will the Minister for the Army state whether any test of the character and business antecedents of such men is made before they are appointed? Is there any means by which the military intelligence branch might be used in investigating the character of proposed appointees?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– When I learned that Captain (now Temporary Major) Rigney was an undischarged bankrupt, I asked for a report as to what check was made of the business antecedents of men appointed to positions in the Army. I have not yet received the report. I do not think the view should be taken that merely because a man has been made a bankrupt he cannot be trusted to discharge the duties of a public position. Some cases of bankruptcy arise in circumstances entirely free of any suspicion of criminality. I have indicated that, pending completion of inquiries, I had Major Rigney put off duty. I have had placed before me all the papers relating to his bankruptcy and I shall peruse them.

page 71

QUESTION

HOUSING SHORTAGE

Mr LAZZARINI:

– In view of the statement that an official appointed by the Commonwealth Government has visited many towns in Australia to investigate the housing shortage, will the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development state whether that official will visit Port Kembla and Wollongong, where the housing shortage is acute?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I shall have the question submitted to the Minister for Supply and Development.

page 72

QUESTION

ASSISTANCE TO FRUITGROWERS

Mr BARNARD:

– Has the Assistant Minister for Commerce considered giving assistance to Tasmanian fruit-growers many of whom suffered total loss of their crops as the result of frost and wind storms?

Mr ANTHONY:
CP

-Consideration has been given to the matter, and I believe that the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. Frost) was advised that assistance could not be given under the conditions which operated.

page 72

QUESTION

TOBACCORATIONING

Mr.RIORDAN. - I ask the Minister for Customs whether the Government intends to introduce a tobacco rationing scheme. If so, will the Minister see that the scheme does not limit the activities of manufacturers who use mainly Australian leaf and that it will ensure the expansion of the industry rather than any contraction?

Mr HARRISON:
UAP

– A tobacco rationing scheme is already in existence, and a circular dealing with the subject has been made available to honorable members. I shall give consideration to the honorable member’s request.

Mr.RIORDAN.- Can (the Minister for Trade and Customs say whether, under the tobacco rationing scheme, the interests of the growers will be protected ? In view of the Government’s desire to preserve dollar exchange and obviate the rationing of tobacco within Australia, does the Government intend to assist the expansion of this industry?

Mr HARRISON:

– A conference of growers and manufacturers was held some time ago in an attempt to arrive at a price basis which would be acceptable to both sections of the industry and encourage growers to increase production, but it broke down. However, following representations made to me by growers and manufacturers, a further conference will take place in Canberra shortly when another attempt will be made to devise a scheme which will be mutually beneficial.

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Minister for Trade and Customs state whetherany action of his, or of his department, has been responsible for stoppage of supplies of tobacco and cigarettes to the canteen of the men’s committee at Holden’s munition works in South Australia? Formerly supplies were made available to a private individual, but I understand that, since a men’s committee has taken over the control of the canteen, supplies have been refused by wholesale firms.

Mr HARRISON:

– No action by either myself or the department has caused the conditions mentioned by the honorable member. The rationing arrangement that was agreed to, and has since been implemented, was based, I understand, on the quantity of tobacco and cigarettes supplied to retailers in September, 1940. That is purely a rationing scheme under the control of those who are distributing the supplies.

page 72

QUESTION

JOINT MEETINGS OF THE WAR CABINET AND ADVISORY WAR COUNCIL

Mr WARD:

– I ask the Minister in charge of the House if members of the Advisory War Council were admitted to any meeting of the War Cabinet or if there was a joint meeting of the War Cabinet and the Advisory War Council. If so, is this practice to be continued and can he indicate to honorable members the purpose of such a meeting?

Mr HUGHES:
UAP

– That question should be directed to the Acting Prime Minister, who is not in the chamber now. I do not propose on my own responsibility to attempt to deal with the honorable gentleman’s question.

page 72

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCE

Compensation for Injuries - Deductions from Pay.

Mr CONELAN:

– I ask the Minister for the Army if theRepatriation Commission has ruled that dependants of members of the Australian Imperial Force who have been killed or injured in Australia while on leave are not eligible for pensions. If so, does the Minister approve of this injustice? If he does not approve, will he see that the anomaly is rectified immediately?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– The question should be directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, who is not present at the moment. I shall discuss the subject-matter of the question with him.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– Is the Minister for the Army aware that members of a small mechanized unit of the Australian Imperial Force were paid ls. a day extra because they held motor transport drivers certificates and that later, when an order to cancel the allowance was given, deductions were made from their pay in order to recoup the excess expenditure? Will the Minister prevent any further deductions from the pay of men who are now overseas? I shall be glad to provide the honorable gentleman with any information in my possession.

Mr SPENDER:

– I am not aware of the facts that the honorable member has mentioned and I should like to have them. On occasions, through mistakes or excess of authority, deductions have been made from the pay of men in the Army or the allowances of their dependants. The attitude which I have adopted in respect of these matters is that, if money is paid to a man in excess of what he is entitled to receive, and if he is unaware that he is receiving excess payments, no deductions should be made. If the honorable member will provide me with the facts in his possession and they are found to comply with those conditions I shall direct that no further deductions shall be made.

page 73

QUESTION

CONFISCATION OF PUBLICATIONS

Mr WILSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

– About two weeks ago I received a 90-word telegram from a Melbourne journal called the Radio Times complaining bitterly that the premises of the newspaper had been raided, and that the whole of one week’s issue had been confiscated. Will the Attorney-General state why this was done ?

Mr HUGHES:
UAP

– I am not aware of the facts to which the honorable member refers. If he will let me have particulars I shall inquire into the complaint at once, and supply an answer to his question.

page 73

QUESTION

TECHNICAL EDUCATION

Mr MORGAN:

– The development of technical education is being delayed in the various States, because of lack of finance. The States cannot provide for the expansion needed, because the cost would amount to millions of pounds. There appears to be a difference of opinion between the Commonwealth Government and the State governments as to which authority should bear the cost of technical training, both for youths and for men wishing to enter the munitions industry. I ask the Minister for the Army whether the Government will settle this problem without further delay, because it has already considerably prejudiced our war effort.

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I do not know whether the question as generally stated by the honorable member can be decided without delay. The development of technical education, purely as such, is primarily a matter for the States. The Commonwealth has been endeavouring to give as much assistance as possible to the States in view of the value of technical education to our war effort, and has made contributions already in respect of capital and other expenditure. I shall be glad to discuss this matter with the Minister for Labour and National Service, and ascertain whether a fuller statement can be made in answer to the question.

page 73

QUESTION

LEAGUE OF YOUNG DEMOCRATS

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

– Is it a fact that an organization known as the League of Young Democrats has been suppressed? If so, why?

Mr HUGHES:
UAP

– I do not know whether it is a fact.

Mr Brennan:

– Will the right honorable gentleman inquire into the matter ?

Mr HUGHES:

– The honorable member speaks with a degree of certitude. I know nothing of this organization.

page 73

QUESTION

LADY BLAMEY

Mr JAMES:

– Has the Minister for the Army seen in the newspapers a report in which Mr. Reginald Denny, an official war correspondent in the Middle East, stated that he saw Lady Blarney going about with a Red Cross badge on? Can the Minister say whether the wearing of a

Red Cross badge by Lady Blarney indicates that she will take charge of, or be attached to, the proposed contingent of Red Cross women canteen workers of which the Minister, on his return from the Middle East, said-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! Speeches are not permissible when asking questions.

Mr JAMES:

– The Minister said that such a contingent would be a good thing and would have a softening effect on the troops.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! The honorable member must not attempt to disobey the Chair.

Mr JAMES:

– If that is the only reason that the Minister can give for sending a contingent of Red Cross canteen workers to the Middle East, does he not think that it contradicts the statement of the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies), when he arrived in England, that he had a message from the Australian troops that, although grim and battle-stained, they still had their tails up?

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Minister need not answer that question.

Mr McCALL:

– Is the Minister in a position to say from whom Lady Blarney received the legal advice which enabled her to flout the wishes of the Government?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– No.

page 74

QUESTION

PRICE OF FLAX

Mr McLEOD:
WANNON, VICTORIA

– I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development whether it is a fact that the price of flax is fixed by a committee on which the growers of flax have no representation ?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I do not know, but I shall have inquiries made.

page 74

QUESTION

SHIPBUILDING AND FISHING INDUSTRIES

Mr BARNARD:

– Can the Minister for Trade and Customs say whether the Tariff Board has completed its inquiries into the granting of assistance to the shipbuilding and fishing industries? If he has not . yet received the board’s report, can he indicate when he expects to do so?

Mr HARRISON:
UAP

– I am not able to say whether or not the inquiry has been completed, but, so far, I have not received the report of the Tariff Board. I shall have inquiries made, and should I find that the investigation has been completed, I shall ask that the report be expedited.

page 74

QUESTION

PRICE OF BRICKS

Mr RIORDAN:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

– I desire to base a question on an extract from the Economic News of July, 1940.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member may not read more than a brief extract.

Mr RIORDAN:

– The extract is as follows : -

In 1938, a ring was formed which promptly quoted a delivered price of 90s. On the 13th October, 1938, the State Price Fixing Commission reduced the price to 85s. Still not content, the brick manufacturers applied to the Commonwealth, and, in November, 1939, were awarded a price of 95s. 6d., thus making Brisbane bricks the dearest in Australia (except for those produced at Canberra). This tenderness of the Commonwealth Prices Commissioner towards a grasping monopoly

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must ask a question.

Mr RIORDAN:

– In view of the statement contained in that publication, and in view of the fact that the price of bricks in Brisbane is higher than elsewhere in Australia, will the Minister for Trade and Customs take steps to have the price restored to the pre-war level, and prevent any undue increase?

Mr HARRISON:
UAP

– I shall give consideration to the honorable member’s request.

page 74

CALLS FROM THE CHAIR

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– I rise to a point of order. I desire to know, Mr. Speaker, whether you are calling honorable members in the order of their rising. On half a dozen occasions I have seen one honorable member receive three calls, whilst others have not had one.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W M Nairn:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– The rule I have endeavoured to follow is that of giving the call to each honorable member in the order of his rising, and not to give a second call to any honorable member until other honorable members who have risen have received their first call. To the best of my recollection the honorable member for Dalley has had at least two calls.

page 75

QUESTION

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Payments to Growers: Stabilization Scheme

Mr WILSON:

– Can the Minister for Commerce give any indication as to when further payments may be expected by growers in respect of the Nos. 1, 2 and 4 Wheat Pools ? When will the Minister be able to make a general statement as to the progress being made in the implementation of the Government’s plan for the stabilization of the wheat industry, particularly those matters relating to the restriction of acreage?

Sir EARLE PAGE:
CP

– I understand that a final payment in respect of wheat in the No. 1 pool is to be made immediately. I shall ascertain exactly what the position is with regard to the other pools, and the information will be conveyed to the honorable member. As to the restriction of acreage, the Wheat Stabilization Board is accumulating all possible information on the matter, and hopes to be in a position to complete it in a few weeks.

page 75

QUESTION

SECRET MEETING OF SENATORS AND MEMBERS

Mr BLACKBURN:
BOURKE, VICTORIA

– Will the Acting Leader of the House state whether the Government intends to give honorable members of this House an opportunity next week to discuss publicly the affairs of this country?

Mr HUGHES:
UAP

– I cannot, of course, give that assurance, but, as far as my voice counts for anything, the honorable gentleman may rest assured that that opportunity will be afforded. Beyond that I cannot go.

page 75

QUESTION

ARMY LEAVE

Mr FALSTEIN:

– Will the Minister for the Army give consideration to the granting of leave to members of the garrison forces at three-monthly intervals, in order that they may avail themselves of the travel concession granted by the Government of New South Wales?

Mr SPENDER:
UAP

– I appreciate the difficulties of garrison troops, stationed considerable distances from their homes, who frequently cannot avail themselves of their leave. Discussions which took place recently have resulted in the granting of the concession referred to, as far as New South Wales is concerned. I am looking into the matter, and am sympathetically considering whether I could, in effect, aggregate the whole of the leave which these troops receive over the year, and divide it into four quarterly periods, in order to enable them to visit their homes, in accordance with the concession granted by the New South Wales Government.

page 75

CANBERRA: ERECTION OF ABATTOIRS

Reference to Public Works Committee

Mr COLLINS:
Assistant Minister · Hume · CP

.- I move-

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1936, the following proposed work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report: - Canberra, Australian Capital Territory - Erection of Abattoirs.

It is proposed to erect an abattoir and by-products plant on a site more conveniently situated than the present structure is with respect to stock routes, rail trucking yards, water and electricity services, and of a design that will allow for extension of all facilities for slaughtering, refrigeration and byproducts treatment. The general estimate of the cost of the proposed work is £55,000, but a detailed estimate cannot be made until all specifications have been decided. The present abattoir, which is inconveniently situated, was established in the early days of settlement in the Australian Capital Territory. Improvised extensions have been made from time to time until the site and buildings are now considered to be unhygienic, and are greatly overtaxed for work and ‘ the accommodation of products. Over a period of six years, the revenue of the present business has exceeded expenditure. It is considered that, with increased facilities, the relation of revenue to expenditure will be on an even sounder basis. I lay upon the table plans &c. in connexion with the proposed work.

Mr PERKINS:
Monaro · Eden

– The purpose of federation was to do away with artificial boundaries between States, yet around Canberra to-day there is drawn a line more inviolable than the State border between Victoria and New South Wales. No milk or meat is allowed to be imported into the Territory, notwithstanding the fact that all meat killed in New South Wales must be passed by a State inspector, and again by a Commonwealth inspector before it can be exported from Australia. Having passed that test it may be sent to any State of the Commonwealth, or to any part of the world, but it may not enter the Australian Capital Territory. That sort of thing defeats the purpose of federation. I am very pleased that this proposal is to be examined by the Public Works Committee before the expenditure is incurred. I do not think that this is a particularly desirable industry to establish in the Federal City. There are plenty of others of a less obnoxious character which might be introduced. We know from experience that the meat sold in Canberra is not so good as it might be, and one reason is that meat from outside the Territory is not allowed to enter. We should endeavour to make Canberra part and parcel of Australia. By sweeping away border restrictions of the kind to which I have referred, we would get better commodities at lower prices. I thank the Minister for ensuring that this work shall not be undertaken without an inquiry.

Sir CHARLES MARR:
Parkes

– I approve of the submission of this proposal to the Public Works Committee for inquiry and report. I am disappointed that the proposal to erect two secretariats on Capitol Hill is not also being referred to the committee, and I shall later move an amendment to have that project included in the reference. We have seen too many buildings erected in Canberra without reference to a committee of any sort. The proposal to erect these secretariats has been condemned by the press throughout the length and breadth of Australia, and by town-planning organizations everywhere. All such organizations, and all honorable members of this House, are entirely opposed to the erection of buildings on sites that are not in conformity with the Griffin plan. I have before me leading articles from prominent journals throughout Australia, as well as from the Canberra Times, all condemning the proposal. I have asked questions in the House regarding the erection of the King George V. Memorial. I find it very hard to understand the reason which actuated the Government in erecting this memorial on a spot where it will interfere for all time with the outlook from the steps of Parliament House, and where it must necessarily spoil the aesthetic perspective of Parkes-place.

Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– All honorable members agree that the erection of up-to-date abattoirs in Canberra is long overdue. In respect of that proposal I support the remarks of the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Perkins). I hope that the Public Works Committee will deal expeditiously with this reference, and that modern abattoirs will be erected here in the very near future.

Before the sitting was suspended I suggested that the Government might agree to include in this reference to the Public Works Committee its proposal to erect temporary secretariats on Camp Hill, and I intimated that I intended, at the conclusion of my speech, to move an amendment along those lines. I am aware that during the luncheon hour inquiries were made as to how I can be prevented from taking this, course. The Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act provides that any honorable member may move to refer any work estimated to cost more than £25,000 to the Public Works Committee for investigation and report. Should you rule my amendment out of order, Mr. Speaker, I shall follow the alternative course of moving a second motion at the conclusion of this debate. In 1938 the Government of the day announced that no work would be undertaken in Canberra after that date without being first referred to the Public Works Committee, or some other appropriate body for investigation and report. This Government and its predecessors have, from time to time, referred what might be described as comparatively unimportant works to the Public Works Committee. The Government’s proposal to erect temporary secretariats on Camp Hill is not only very important but also represents a serious departure from the Griffin plan.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W M Nairn:

– Is the honorable member proceeding to discuss the Griffin plan?

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– I propose to discuss the construction of abattoirs in Canberra in relation to the Griffin plan. This proposal represents a departure from that plan insofar as the proposed site is concerned ; but the site chosen is adjacent to the area reserved in the Griffin plan for abattoirs. The Griffin plan should be the Government’s bible in respect of the development of Canberra. That plan is not the concern of any particular department; it belongs to Australia as a whole, so far as the development of the National Capital is concerned. One consideration in referring the erection of abattoirs to the Public Works Committee is in order to ensure that the health of the community shall be completely safeguarded. From the health point of view alone, how much more imperative is it that the erection of offices in which public servants will be obliged to work should be similarly investigated? Some time ago I had occasion to object very strenuously in this Parliament to the erection of the Canberra High School on a portion of the site reserved in the Griffin plan for the National University. And in order to proceed with that work the department closed a portion of a road. I again emphasize that any proposal which involves a departure from the Griffin plan should first be submitted to this Parliament. Should Parliament concur with any such proposal, well and good; but Parliament has not been consulted in respect of the Government’s proposal to erect temporary secretariats on Capitol Hill.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must reserve any observations he wishes to make with regard to the erection of secretariats until a motion in respect of such work is before the House.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– I take it, Mr. Speaker, that you are anticipating the motion which I propose to move?

Mr SPEAKER:

– I am not anticipating the honorable member in any way whatever. The honorable member must now address himself solely to the motion before the House.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– Is not a motion of this description capable of amendment, Mr. Speaker?

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member can move an amendment provided it be relevant to the motion.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– In order to obtain your ruling on the matter immediately, Mr. Speaker, I move -

That the following words be added to the motion - “ and the secretariats near Capitol Hill “.

I submit that the motion is broad enough to embrace other works in addition to abattoirs.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member’s amendment is not in order. The motion before the House represents a substantive proposal to refer to the Public Works Committee a certain work, namely, the erection of abattoirs in Canberra. The amendment moved by the honorable member is an entirely separate proposal and must, therefore, be submitted as a separate motion. If a proposal dealing with the erection of secretariats can be considered in conjunction with the motion now before the House, we might just as well admit other proposals, such as the construction of aerodromes at Alice Springs or Darwin. In that case there would be no limit to the debate. I rule, therefore, that the amendment is not in order as it is not relevant to the motion. The debate must be confined to the motion.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– Would not the honorable member for Parkes be in order in moving an amendment that the letter “ s “ be added to the word “ work “ ?

Mr SPEAKER:

– Section 15 of the Public Works Committee Act provides that a Minister, or any member of the House of Representatives, may move that any work estimated to cost £25,000 or more be referred to the Public Works Committee. Under that provision the honorable member for Parkes may, at the appropriate time, move that the erection of secretariats near Capitol Hill be referred to the Public Works Committee.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– I accept your ruling, Mr. Speaker. However, I ask the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Fadden) whether, after the motion now before the House has been disposed of, he will accept a motion to refer the construction of the secretariats near Capitol Hill to the Public Works Committee?

Mr Fadden:

– I shall be prepared to give consideration to the honorable member’s request ; but I point out that it can in no way affect the debate on this motion which must proceed.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– I cannot accept that assurance, because it is too indefinite. Unless the Government is prepared to include in this reference to the Public Works Committee the proposed new secretariats, I shall vote against the motion. The present proposal is fraught with considerable danger, and I intend to make a fight to ensure that no further departures are made from the Griffin plan. For too long has the National Capital been the plaything of politicians, and I refuse to allow the Government further to trifle with the matter. Parliament is asked to refer to the Public Works Committee a pettifogging job, but important buildings the estimated cost of which is £80,000 and which are said to be temporary are not referred to that body. Obviously, that position should be rectified. Furthermore, I reject the statement by the Minister for the Interior (Senator Foll) that the proposed new secretariats, if erected on the foundations which have been laid near to Parliament House, will cost £80,000, because the secretary of the Department of the Interior has already informed me that the cost would not exceed £60,000. I cannot accept the intimation of the Acting Prime Minister that my proposal must take its chance. I shall fight for it to-day. If my proposal be not included in the motion, I shall vote against it.

Mr McCall:

– Why does not the honorable member move a separate motion ?

Mr Fadden:

– The honorable member for Parkes knows very little of parliamentary procedure if he is not aware that such a course is open to him.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– I know sufficient about parliamentary procedure to be aware that the Government controls the business paper. From long years of association with this institution, I know also that the Government would place such a motion, if I were to submit it, at the bottom of the notice-paper. In the circumstances, I decline to take the chance. I ask the Acting Prime Minister to give me a definite assurance that if the House now agrees to the motion to refer to the Public. Works Committee the erection of the abattoirs in the Australian Capital Territory, he will accept a motion to-day from me also to refer to that body the matter of the erection of the new buildings.

Mr Fadden:

– I am prepared to accept a motion to that affect, but the House will decide whether it should be carried.

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– I am content to leave the matter to the House. Having obtained that assurance, I now withdraw my opposition to the motion.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- I support the motion to refer to the Public Works Committee for inquiry and report the proposal for the erection of abattoirs in the Australian Capital Territory. It is the established practice to refer works of that character to the committee.

Mr Stacey:

– It is not the practice to do so.

Mr BARNARD:

– Although the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act makes provision for the procedure, governments in the past have ignored it. I regret that the amendment submitted by the honorable member for Parkes (Sir Charles Marr) was ruled out of order, but I am gratified to learn that the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Fadden) is prepared to accept from him a specific motion relating to the new secretariats. That will be discussed immediately the House disposes of this motion. I do not propose to delay its passage, because I believe that the principle is sound. My only regret is that governments in the past have not seen fit to submit various important works to the authorized body for inquiry and report. The little knowledge that honorable members possess about such proposals is gleaned either from the press, or from personal observation. Unfortunately such works have been undertaken with little regard for the carefully devised Griffin plan. When departures from it are made, as has been done in the case of the King George V. Memorial, which is now being erected in front of Parliament House, the Federal Capital will, instead of conforming to a definite plan, “ just grow, like Topsy “. I congratulate the honorable member for

Eden-Monaro (Mr. Perkins) for bringing this matter prominently before the Government, which should result in the proposal being referred to the Public Works Committee.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 79

CANBERRA: ADDITIONAL OFFICE ACCOMMODATION

Reference to Public Works Committee

Sir CHARLES MARR:
Parkes

. - by leave - I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1013-1936, the following proposed work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report: - Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Erection of temporary office buildings near Capitol Hill.

As I have already mentioned, I am a great stickler for the observance of the Griffin plan, and I have always been consistent in my advocacy of the necessity to refer to the Public Works Committee for inquiry and report all proposals for the erection of Commonwealth buildings, the estimated cost of which will exceed £25,000. Parliament appoints that committee specifically to investigate such works, whether temporary or permanent. The estimated cost of the proposed new secretariats, which are said to be of a temporary character, is £80,000. Does any one in his wildest dreams believe that two such structures could be justifiably classed as temporary?

Mr Barnard:

– They will be there for a. generation !

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– Without seeking in any way to influence the Public Works Committee, I shall be greatly disappointed if it does not investigate suitable sites for the new secretariats, and ensure that they conform to the Griffin plan.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- I second the motion. As one who has taken a keen interest in the growth and development of Canberra, I am gratified to see that the Government, even at this late stage, has agreed to accept a motion to refer to the Public Works Committee for inquiry and report the erection of the new secretariats near Capitol Hill. The construction of temporary offices on that site will definitely contravene the Griffin plan, and I am at a loss to understand why the Government desires to erect them on the site selected for the permanent Parliament House. The proposed new buildings will he constructed of brick and should be of service for possibly a century. They would be an eyesore and even worse than the eyesore which has been created in front of this building by the erection of the stonework for the King George V. Memorial. Honorable members have only themselves to blame for what has occurred in that respect, because insufficient interest was taken when I and other honorable members suggested that the proposed memorial was in the wrong form and place and would be a waste of money.

Mr Blain:

– Is the site wrong?

Mr BARNARD:

– Yes ; the site, the type and everything about it is wrong. The money to be expended on it would be much better employed in the building of a hospital, and I am certain that his late Majesty would have favored such a monument. The scenic value of Capitol Hill will be impaired if the proposed buildings are erected on the site suggested. I hope that when this matter comes before the Public Works Committee, it will carefully examine that aspect of the matter.

Greater attention is long overdue to the need to erect offices for public departments in Canberra, because it is essential that within the shortest possible time the remainder of the departments should be brought to Canberra so that this city will be the national capital in fact and not only in name. Associated with the whole project is the fact that not very far from Parliament House £52,000 worth of concrete foundations have remained unused since 11)27. From time to time, consideration has been given to building on those foundations. At one stage they were strengthened in anticipation of being utilized, only to be abandoned again. I inspected the foundations yesterday and beneath a litter of weeds and rubbish saw where they had been strengthened. The Public Works Committee, no doubt, will also consider that aspect, and I hope that, as suggested by the honorable member for Parkes, something will be done to utilize those foundations. The £80,000 which the Government proposes to expend on offices near Capitol Hill should be diverted to the construction of the first section of the permanent administrative building originally contemplated. If that were done, the money that would be required to provide foundations for the building near Capitol Hill would be saved and, to the extent of that saving, additional office accommodation could be provided.

Recently, the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies) said that certain buildings had to be erected in Melbourne for defence purposes and that it was necessary to transfer staffs from Canberra to Melbourne where they were needed in the service departments. When the Prime Minister left Australia, the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Fadden) said that certain buildings had to be erected in Sydney. The meetings of the War Cabinet were then transferred from Melbourne to Sydney. The game of draughts goes on. The value of Sydney or Melbourne as an administrative centre seems to depend on the outlook of the Prime Minister of the day. Honorable members should raise their voices against a policy which ignores the National Capital. Canberra was established as the National Capital, and it should be accepted as such. Cabinet should meet here. Not until then shall we have a true national outlook. When the former member for Calare (Mr. Thorby) was Minister for Civil Aviation, he said that the head-quarters of the department would be established at Canberra, but, before he had time to give effect to his policy, a change of Ministers took place with the result that the Department of Civil Aviation remained in Melbourne. The development of Canberra should not depend on the whim of individual Ministers. I could emulate the honorable member for Parkes and refer to press reports, but it is not necessary for me to do so. I am glad that the Acting Prime Minister agreed to the motion being moved. I am confident, that the Public Works Committee will, in due course, report to Parliament that it is undesirable to depart from the original Griffin plan or to mutilate the proposed site for the permanent Parliament House. I have no doubt that the motion will be carried.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

.- I strongly oppose the departure from the Griffin plan in the proposal to erect temporary secretariats costing approximately £80,000 on the site reserved for the permanent parliamentary building at Canberra. The department charged with the task of carrying out the Griffin plan has failed in its duty in not referring this proposed work to Parliament for approval. I commend the honorable member for Parkes (Sir Charles Marr) for having brought this matter under the notice of honorable members. The tendency of some departments to ignore their obligations to this Parliament must be curbed. Earlier during the debate I asked that the files in connexion with this proposed work be placed on the table of the House, and the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Collins) undertook to make them available, but so far I have not seen them.

Mr Collins:

– The files are being procured.

Mr FRANCIS:

– I want to know who is responsible for recommending this departure from the Griffin plan without the consent of the Parliament. We have in Canberra an advisory body, the National Capital Planning and Development Committee, on which a number of leading architects serve in an honorary capacity. When chairman of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works I was empowered by the Parliament to take a seat on the National Capital Planning and Development Committee, and during my term of office I was able to gain the highest possible appreciation of the value of the helpful advice it gave to the department. It has been stated in the press that this proposed departure from the Griffin plan has been strongly opposed by the National Capital Planning and Development Committee. If the newspaper report be correct, honorable members should be informed why its advice has been ignored. I join with the honorable member for Parkes in urging that the proposed work be referred to the Public

Works Committee for investigation and report. The commencement of the construction of the National Capital of Australia in 1913 was marked by a number of ceremonies, and the foundation stones of a number of proposed new building were laid ; but so far as I know, apart from the Institute of Anatomy, the Patent Office, and a small section of the National Library, only temporary buildings have since been erected.

Mr Brennan:

– A very good method was followed in connexion with the building of the National Library. The complete plan was adopted, but only a small section of the building, sufficient to meet present requirements, was completed.

Mr FRANCIS:

– That is so. I am also reminded that I, with other honorable members on this side of the House, when sitting in Opposition, forced the Government of the clay, of which the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) was a member, to adopt that course. In introducing the Public Works Committee Bill in the House of Representatives in December, 1913, the then Prime Minister, the Honorable Joseph Cook, said -

We are spending in public works every year from £3,000,000 to £4,000,000; and Parliament, I am afraid, is not so well informed as it ought to be regarding the expenditure of this money and the projection of the various public works. Every one knows that we pass bills through this chamber, sometimes, in circumstances which do not permit of full and detailed investigation of the projects to which they relate; and, consequently, I fear that Parliament occasionally knows very little of the actual details of the expenditure of large Bums of public money. It is in order to remedy that defect, as well as to ensure a more efficient spending of the money, and the wiser disposition of our public works policy, that this committee is proposed. Experience, both in Victoria and New South Wales, abundantly justifies this proposal. I do not hesitate to say that, in the State of New South Wales, a similar committee has saved the country millions of money …. The function of the committee is to be the “eyes and ears of Parliament “ …. so that Parliament may assume its responsibility with an enlightened mind and judgment.

A brief examination of some of the savings made by the Public Works Committee will show the wisdom of having a statutory body vested with power to examine proposed public works. The following is a list of defence works upon which various Public Works Committees have reported and recommended reduced expenditure : -

The committee was suspended from 1932 the committee during 1938 resulted in until 1936. The inquiries completed by the following savings being made: - Since a Public Works Committee was first appointed in 1913 to be the " eyes and the ears of Parliament", savings totalling approximately £5,000,000 have been recommended. The original Public Works Committee Act provided that the committee shall consider and report upon every work, except defence works, the estimated cost of which was in excess of £25,000. The amending act passed in 1936 provides that the committee shall consider and report on any public work, the estimated cost of which is in excess of £25,000, which is referred to it by resolution of the House of Representatives. The time has now arrived when the act should be amended to its original form, thus giving the committee power to consider and report on all works, other than defence works, the estimated cost of which is in excess of £25,000. I commend the Government for having agreed to permit discussion of the proposal to erect temporary offices on the site on which the permanent Parliament House will eventually be constructed. I trust that the House will stand up to its obligations and refer to the Public Works Committee all proposals involving a departure from the Griffin plan. The proposed departure from that plan should be prevented unless there are very strong and compelling reasons; we would be recreant to our trust were we to permit it. I appeal to the House to insist that the proposal be referred to the Public Works Committee. {: #subdebate-49-0-s3 .speaker-JNR} ##### Mr BAKER:
Maranoa .- I support the motion. I think it may be said that many towns in Australia were actually planned by bullock drivers, and that their later development on proper lines has been costly, indeed. Canberra was intended to be a city symbolic of the beauty, strength, grandeur and riches of Australia, but some vandals are . now attempting to destroy it. In the beginning construction was commenced upon what might be called Hogarth's curve of beauty. There was considerable opposition to the plan which was eventually adopted, but now an attempt is being made to depart from it. The standard of our development is indicated by our music, our art, and by our conception of beauty. Our aim should be to see that the National Capital is worthy of the people of this great country. The proposed temporary structures would be buildings of some permanence, which would destroy the beauty of the city, and be a radical departure from the original plan. {: #subdebate-49-0-s4 .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr BLAIN:
Northern Territory -- I do not intend to discuss the merits or demerits of the site on which the proposed buildings may be erected because I have not had an opportunity to examine the location; but it is unadulterated nonsense to suggest that in no circumstances should there be any departure from the Griffin plan. Parliament is not competent to give a technical or aesthetic view on any proposed variation of the plan. That is the responsibility of those who have had the necessary training. It has been stated that the National Capital Planning and Developmental Committee has recommended that the Griffin plan be not departed from. If that is so, then obviously its members do not know the basic principles of town planning. {: .speaker-JWT} ##### Mr Francis: -- Do not be silly ! {: .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr BLAIN: -- The honorable member for Moreton **(Mr. Francis)** who apparently challenges the accuracy of my statement should wait until next week, when the plan of Darwin, prepared by a fully qualified town-planner, will be placed before honorable members. I know the gentleman who has been responsible for its production, and it will be a revelation to honorable members who have no real conception of what a town plan should be. They will see something of outstanding merit, and will benefit from the experience^ A plan of a city or of a town should not be static. It is something which must be altered and moulded to meet the ever-changing needs. The basic plan of course will stand, but alterations are inevitable. For instance, Commonwealthavenue, which is Canberra's main thoroughfare, was built in accordance with the Griffin plan. Had the city been in course of planning to-day, that thoroughfare would have been different. When the Griffin plan was prepared in 1912, 1 had just started work in a survey camp, and even then the plan was criticized vigorously by the old surveyor with whom I was then serving. At that time, of course, traffic consisted largely of horse-drawn vehicles. But to-day a competent authority would not plan such a narrow roadway for the administrative centre of a national capital. The main thoroughfare should be a highway of arterial dimensions such as one sees in Paris and other large continental cities. The existing roadway is far too narrow to meet present-day needs. The presence of trees at the corners of many thoroughfares makes almost every corner dangerous. There is nothing approaching the 400 feet vision which is accepted as necessary in modern planning. The Griffin plan needs radical alteration. {: .speaker-JWT} ##### Mr Francis: -- With the approval of Parliament. {: .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr BLAIN: -- Any town-planning committee which believes that the Griffin plan should not be altered is obviously an incompetent body, and in future its advice should not be entertained. I do not wish to be unduly critical of that committee. It may be quite competent in some directions, but it is obvious that its members do not have a thorough grasp of tie basic principles of town-planning. {: .speaker-JWT} ##### Mr Francis: -- Its members are university professors who arc teaching townplanning. {: .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr BLAIN: -- I thought that they would be doing something like that. The planning of a national capital should be in the hands of only qualified planners holding certificates from the London Institute of Town Planning - the highest townplanning authority in the Empire. To my knowledge, there are only three men in Australia who hold a certificate from that institute. Town-planning is now a science, and usually only scientific people are attracted to it. I congratulate the Government upon the attitude it has taken in deciding to depart from the Griffin plan. I suggest, however, that in future a member of the Town Planning Institute be called in as a consultant, so that the work may be supervised by a real town-planner and not by those who merely masquerade as town-planners. {: .speaker-JWT} ##### Mr Francis: -- Hot air! {: .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr BLAIN: -- The honorable member shows his utter ignorance of the basic principles of town-planning. He should wait until the town-plan of Darwin is presented to this House before saying anything more on the subject. I am not arguing as to the merits or demerits of the proposed site, although the erection of a monument to the late 'King George V. in front of Parliament House indicates that a little more discrimination in the choice of sites is advisable. A planner with any aesthetic sense would not have allowed such a thing. The whole beauty of the facade of this building has been destroyed. No member of the London Institute of Town Planning would have countenanced the erection of that memorial in its present position. We are all only too pleased to pay tribute to the late King; but a more suitable site could have been chosen. The need for strict adherence to the Griffin plan should be taken up very seriously by the Government, and fully qualified town-planners should be consulted when advice is required. The first permanent administrative building to be constructed in Canberra should be one to accommodate the Department of the Interior. The secretary and officers of that department are working under conditions which should not exist anywhere. Valuable plans and records are housed in a ramshackle wooden building; and if a fire occurred, in addition to extensive damage to property, the destruction of valuable national records would result. The Department of the Interior controls many activities throughout Australia, and it should have better accommodation. I ask the Government to ignore the nonsensical claim that the Griffin plan be regarded as sacrosanct. Strict adherence to that plan is merely a fetish. I urge also that Commonwealth-avenue, which is the central thoroughfare of Canberra, be converted into an arterial roadway which will make visitors feel that they were actually entering the National Capital and not a doll's house. The Government should take steps to co-opt the services of a qualified town-planner, and it should not put this new work in hand until such expert advice has been obtained. {: #subdebate-49-0-s5 .speaker-KMZ} ##### Mr MARTENS:
Herbert .- I support the motion, but I cannot support the views expressed by the honorable member for the Northern Territory **(Mr. Blain).** He apparently desires the Griffin plan to be abandoned. May I remind him that if that plan is to be abandoned, it must be done by the putting in motion of' the legislative procedure laid down to achieve that end. I wish now to say a few words on the general subject of the construction of permanent administrative offices in Canberra. On the 9th March, 1923, the House of Representatives, on the motion of the then Minister for Works and Railways, the late Honorable P. G. Stewart, referred to the Public Works Committee a proposal for the construction of provisional administrative offices at Canberra. The committee, after an investigation of the proposal, recommended on the 21st June, 1923, that the provision of these proposed temporary structures be not approved, but that steps be taken to erect two units of permanent buildings. It also recommended that competitive designs for these buildings be invited from the architects of Australia, so that a promise made by a "previous government could be honoured that any permanent government buildings in contemplation for Canberra should be the subject of competition. On the 24th August, 1923, also on the motion of the then Minister for Works and Railways, the House of Representatives agreed - >That it is not expedient to carry out the construction of provisional administrative offices with accessory engineering services at Canberra - a proposed work which has been investigated and reported upon by the Parliamentary Standing Committee of Public Works in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Act 1913-1021 - but that it is expedient to invite competitive designs for permanent administrative offices as recommended by the Parliamentary Standing Committee in its report. Competitive designs were then invited for the first permanent administrative offices at Canberra. Ninety-four designs were submitted by architects from all States and the premium was awarded to **Mr. George** Sydney Jones, of Sydney. On the 11th February, 1926, on the motion of the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, now **Sir Charles** Marr, the House of Representatives agreed - >That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Act 1913- 1921, the following work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee of Public Works for investigation and report thereon, viz., the erection of a building at Canberra for accommodation of Commonwealth departments. After an exhaustive inquiry, the committee, on the 15th June, 1926, submitted its report, which was adopted by Parliament on the 23rd July, 1926. The proposal at that time aimed at the construction of a large utilitarian office building, 430 feet long and 54 feet high, comprising five floors and capable of accommodating eight departments of State, with an office space sufficient for about 1,100 officials. The total estimated cost to the Commonwealth was set down at £842,618. Included in this figure, however, were - The subtraction of this amount from the total estimated cost of £842,618 leaves £447,599 as the cost of the unornamented building, complete with engineering services. The Griffin plan stipulated that all administrative buildings, with the exception of the Civic Administration, should be located in Parkes-place in what is known as the " Governmental Triangle ", extending from Parliament House towards the Molonglo River. It was intended that the proposed building should occupy a site to the north-east of Parliament House, and that it should be followed later by a complementary building of a similar design in a relative position to the north-west of Parliament House. In 1928 work was commenced on the permanent administrative offices, but, on the completion of the foundations at a cost of approximately £79,630, it was suspended. The figure I have given includes the cost of the competition, and also certain architects' fees and expenses in addition to the actual cost of the foundations. Any proposal to erect permanent offices for Commonwealth departments outside the Governmental Triangle is contrary to the Griffin plan. The Griffin plan was formally adopted by the Government in 1925, and no modification or variation of Lt may legally be made until after the expiration of 30 days from the date that a notification of intention so to vary it has been published in the *Commonwealth Gazette* and the papers have been laid before Parliament. Section 12a of the Seat of Government (Administration) Act 1910-1933 provides :- {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Minister may at any time, by writing under his hand, modify or vary the plan of lay-out of the City of Canberra and its environs, published in the *Gazette* of the nineteenth day of November, One thousand nine-hundred and twenty-five, as modified or varied prior to the date of the commencement of this section, but no such modification or variation shall be made until after the expiration of thirty days after notice of intention, published in the *Gazette,* so to modify or vary the plan has been given. 1. A copy of the instrument by which any modification or variation of the plan has been made shall be laid before both Houses of the Parliament within fifteen days of the making thereof if the Parliament is then sitting, or, if not, then within fifteen days of the next meeting of the Parliament. 2. If either House of the Parliament passes a resolution, pf which notice has been given at any time within fifteen sitting days after the instrument has been laid before it, disallowing the modification or variation made by the instrument, the modification or variation shall cease to have effect. 3. The Minister shall not depart from, or do anything inconsistent with, the plan of the city published in the *Gazette,* with such modifications or variations as have been made prior to the date of the commencement of this section or as are made in pursuance of this section. In protesting against this proposed departure from the Griffin plan I remind honorable members that several earlier instances of such departure have occurred. I mention first the Patent Office. The erection of the high school on its present site means that the university block has been intruded upon, and *the* high school is actually located in front of what was intended to be the main administrative building of the University Senate. The school playing oval is on a portion of the university block. The memorial to King George V. is another instance of the kind. Under the National Memorial Ordinance of 1929, a memorials committee was appointed, consisting of the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the President of the Senate, **Mr. Speaker,** and one or two others. Without reference to such committee, a sub-committee of Cabinet, consisting of Messrs. Casey, Menzies and **Sir Archdale** Parkhill, approved of the erection of a memorial to King George V. in front of Parliament House, and a commission was given to **Mr. Raynor** Hoff to design it. The present offices of the Department of the Interior were originally erected as a temporary expedient, but expensive additions have been made to them from time to time. Approval was given by Cabinet, without full information, to the inclusion of the Department of Health in the area allocated to the Institute of Anatomy. Objection was raised in Parliament and, when the proposal was shown to be illegal, it was dropped. The permanent administrative offices proposed for the site to the north-east of Parliament House were to accommodate 1,100 officials, and, as I have already indicated, the cost of the building, without external embellishment, was to be £447,599. It would be possible to erect a building containing one-quarter of the accommodation, but, owing to the fact that provision would have to be made for the later introduction of complete engineering services, it is unlikely that the cost of such a section, without embellishment, would be one-quarter of the estimated cost of the complete building. It must be borne in mind, however, that, if the Griffin plan is to be carried out in its entirety, any money expended on temporary secretariats will be a complete loss, whilst any expenditure incurred on the provision of a section of the permanent offices may be deducted from the ultimate cost of that building. The proposal of the Government in regard to administrative offices is distinctly at variance with a law already on our statute-book. When governments break national and international laws it is said that they treat their undertakings as scraps of paper. Apparently this Government is prepared to treat an act of the Parliament as a scrap of paper, or, at any rate, to be willing to disregard it altogether. If it is necessary to provide temporary office accommodation in. Canberra, it should be done in such a way as will not conflict with the Griffin plan. It should be possible to provide a building suitable for use as temporary quarters for clerical staffs, but which could later be used for ordinary accommodation purposes. We are all well aware that Hotel Acton has been used for departmental offices, and I have never heard much complaint about it. I can see no reason why a temporary building cannot be erected on some site not already earmarked under the Griffin plan. Probably when the need for its use as offices no longer existed, it could be practicable to use it for other purposes. The Government is not playing the game by Parliament or the people, because it is breaking down the law without consulting Parliament. {: #subdebate-49-0-s6 .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS:
Monaro · Eden -- The honorable member for Parkes **(Sir Charles Marr)** deserves commendation for bringing this matter before the House as well as for his vigilance in the interests of Canberra. As a former Minister for the Interior, I am aware that the department has many difficulties to cope with and probably, because of the shortage of money for public works and the growth of Canberra, they are greater now than they were when I held the portfolio. If a person proposes to invest even £5,000 in building, ho must observe a prescribed procedure to obtain Government approval. In the case under review, a sum of £S0,000 is to be expended by the Government on the provision of temporary office accommodation at a time when the amount of money available for public works is limited. The honorable member for the Northern Territory **(Mr. Blain)** claimed that the Griffin plan is not sacrosanct. I do not accept that view entirely. Certainly changes have been made since the plan was prepared, but admitting that, the main question is, if changes are to be made in the plan, who should authorize them? The matter should not be dealt with solely by the Minister. Parliament should have some voice in the authorization of changes to be made in the plan. I realize that the citizens of Canberra and other citizens of Australia living outside the Australian Capital Territory, particularly architects in the leading cities, are greatly concerned about the development of the National Capital. I suppose the Minister for the Interior **(Senator Foll)** will point out that he is handicapped by the lack of money. Although the Departments of Commerce and Trade and Customs are overcrowded in the buildings which they occupy in Canberra, no action to relieve the situation should be taken until the matter is brought to Parliament and referred to the Public Works Committee, which would then become the eyes and ears of Parliament. Foundations were laid years ago for a permanent administrative block; I do not know whether buildings are to be erected on those foundations. The statement has been made that they are unsafe. I am aware that the foundations have been examined time and again. If they are unsafe, we should be so informed. I hope that the Public Works Committee will consider all these factors. We are building a city not for the present generation, but for future generations. Washington, in its development, passed through a perilous stage. One Ministry erected temporary structures that have remained for a hundred years and are a public eyesore. I sympathize with the Minister for the Interior and I appreciate his difficulties because I have held the portfolio. My advice to him is to take the House into his confidence. I congratulate the honorable member for Parkes for having brought, the matter forward, and I appreciate the courtesy of the Acting Prime Minister **(Mr. Fadden)** in permitting honorable members to discuss it. {: #subdebate-49-0-s7 .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN:
Batman .- 1 support the motion. I think that Parliament should bend such intelligence as it possesses to the development of a plan for what ought to be the city of culture in Australia. I believe that the honorable member for the Northern Territory **(Mr.** Blain) in his observations about present requirements as compared with the vision of the founders of Canberra rather misunderstood or, at least, mis-stated the position relating to the duties of those whose business it is to plan for the future development of the National Capital. It is true, in my opinion, that in ordinary matters of human relationships, human aspirations and human rights, economic and social considerations, the dead hand of the past cannot be suffered to control the living. The honorable member for the Northern Territory however overlooked the fact that in laying out a city it is essential to order one's plans in relatively primitive conditions for the time when the city develops, population increases and the social changes that inevitably occur have come to pass. It was in these circumstances that the much debated question of the layout of the National Capital was considered by Parliament many years ago. The difference between my outlook on these matters and that of the honorable member for the Northern Territory is exemplified by a single illustration that he gave. He stated that walking some chains in front of Parliament House and looking back at its facade he was distressed to find that in the aesthetic sense the vista of the building was distorted by the erection of a memorial that has not yet been completed. My point of view is the impression formed in looking from the steps of Parliament House towards the distant hills. Then one realizes that a serious infraction of the true aesthetic sense has been wantonly perpetrated by persons of inferior vision to that of those who established the capital. The beautiful vista of the open foreground and **Mr Ainslie** has been destroyed by the erection of the misplaced memorial. Superabundant opportunities *and* locations are available for doing honour to the memory of His Late Majesty, King George V., and for symbolizing with his name the unity of the British Commonwealth of Nations, without destroying, as is being done, the fundamentally artistic conception of the founders of this capital city. I recall that the naming of this city was associated with a man whose breadth of vision in his outlook upon the future of the Commonwealth has been well justified by events. I refer to **Mr. King** O'Malley, who was Minister for Home Affairs when this city was named. The honorable member for Moreton **(Mr. Francis)** implied, in reply to a friendly suggestion of mine, that in some way he had brought pressure to bear upon the Scullin Government in regard to the incomplete National Library in Canberra. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Sir Charles Marr: -- I believe that the right honorable member for Yarra **(Mr. Scullin)** is one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the Griffin plan. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN: -- I believe so too. At the moment I hardly know just what the honorable member for Moreton referred to, but I cited the National Library as an excellent example of how buildings of small size might be constructed and used without any departure from the comprehensive plan for future development of the territory. At present the National Library appears to the casual and unobservant beholder to be a somewhat stark building in open surroundings and not related to anything in particular. As a matter of fact it is part of a wellconsidered, majestic plan and when it has been completed, in the course of years, it will stand as an appropriate part of a harmonious whole. The right honorable member for Yarra has always been one of the most active and enthusiastic supporters of the development of this territory on a wide scale. I am consoled by the fact that those who have enjoyed the honour of being Ministers of the Crown in control of this territory, like the honorable member for Parkes **(Sir Charles Marr)** and the honorable member for Eden-Monaro **(Mr. Perkins),** and certainly not less than others, **Mr. Blakeley,** have almost invariably used their influence in this chamber to bring about a better conception of what is due to this territory. It was their business to study the history of this capital city and endeavour to follow the plan conceived in the minds of those persons who planted this great tree under whose shade and shelter we meet for the discharge of public business. I do not pretend that this matter is of the very first importance. I do not contradict those who say that if a flight of enemy aeroplanes came over this city its buildings - even the apparently permanent ones - might prove to be of a sadly temporary character. But I believe that we should build for the future not in' an atmosphere of despair, but in an atmosphere of hope and optimism, and in the confident belief that when the present great international trouble has passed away this country will still be in the hands of Australians with Australian ideals, and controlled by an Australian Parliament. {: #subdebate-49-0-s8 .speaker-KIX} ##### Mr HUTCHINSON:
Deakin .- In supporting the .motion submitted hy the honorable member for Parkes **(Sir Charles Marr),** I speak not as an avowed champion of all aspects of the Griffin plan, but as an uncompromising supporter of that plan so far as it envisages the erection near Capitol Hill of a permanent Parliament House, in beautiful surroundings, suitable to the dignity of this great city. The building in which we meet to-day was intended to be a temporary structure ; I am told that it cost £700,000. Apparently it will be converted into administrative offices when its present purpose has been served. It would have been much better to begin the construction of the permanent Parliament House near Capitol Hill and extend it gradually until it reached full dimensions. The present Parliament House is unsuitable in many respects. Accommodation is limited; honorable members have only one common room and are provided with two or three lockers each, like boys at a boarding school, and from time to time the provision of adequate accommodation becomes a burning question. Now it is proposed to spend about £80,000 for the erection, on the site of the future Parliament House, of additional temporary structures. They are to be constructed of brick, which suggests that they are intended to have a long life. I must join with honorable members who have protested against this proposal. I have- seen the capital city of the United States of America. I believe that., we shall be able to build here a city far surpassing in beauty and dignity the city of "Washington. I have the vision, no doubt in common with every other honorable member, of Canberra being not only a city of great beauty but also the centre of this nation's political, educational and, perhaps, social life. The construction of temporary buildings on sites reserved for permanent structures is foolish. {: #subdebate-49-0-s9 .speaker-JVA} ##### Mr MORGAN:
Reid -- I support the motion. It is only right that before an undertaking of this kind is proceeded with the proposal should be reported on by the Public Works Committee. There are too many departures from the principles of democracy, and wherever we find those rights endangered we should guard them jealously. I am concerned because throughout its history Canberra has been a place for the erection of buildings of a temporary character. As far back as 1925 I contested an election against the present member for Eden-Monaro **(Mr. Perkins).** At that time the Eden-Monaro electorate completely encircled Canberra and there was a strong belief that the government of the day never really intended to make Canberra the national capital. I told the electors that also was my opinion. Evidently my remarks were regarded as something in the nature of a challenge, as my opponent prevailed upon the then Prime Minister (Hon. S. M. Bruce) to visit the electorate, when he publicly announced that within twelve months the Commonwealth Parliament would sit in Canberra. The result of that was that the present King, who was then Duke of York, was invited to perform the opening ceremony. Previously the foundation stones of a number of buildings had been laid, but, as I have said, there was a general belief that the government of the day had no intention to go on with the establishment of a national capital in this place. Since this building was opened, nearly fourteen years ago, the position has not greatly changed. It is true that the National Parliament meets here occasionally - very occasionally of late - but most of the administrative departments are still concentrated in Melbourne, where they were then. The chief reason why the present site was selected for the nation's capital was the risk associated with a capital city at or near the seaboard. It was thought that in a time of national crisis the National Parliament and the administrative departments, particularly the departments of defence, air and the navy, would be less liable to attack if situated inland. Many years have passed and Australia is facing the greatest crisis of its history, but those departments are still in Melbourne, there being only skeleton staffs in Canberra. The best way for the Government to prove its sincerity, and to make Canberra indeed Australia's capital, is to construct no more buildings of a temporary character, but to erect permanent structures in this city. {: #subdebate-49-0-s10 .speaker-KOQ} ##### Mr McCALL:
Martin .- I congratulate the honorable member for Parkes **(Sir Charles Marr)** on bringing this matter forward and other honorable members on supporting the motion before the chair. The motion has my support. 1 was particularly interested in the remarks of the honorable member for EdenMonaro **(Mr. Perkins),** who suggested that the reason for deciding to erect the proposed buildings on the site selected by the Government was that the foundations already laid for permanent administrative offices were not considered to be safe. If that be the true state of affairs, the Assistant Minister **(Mr. Collins)** should say so, because on that point a good deal of doubt exists. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The foundations were tested recently and found to be all right. {: .speaker-KOQ} ##### Mr McCALL: -- If the foundations are sound, the Assistant Minister should explain why these buildings are not to be constructed on them. They cost the taxpayers of this country many thousands of pounds and should not be left abandoned without good reason. {: #subdebate-49-0-s11 .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr COLLINS:
Assistant Minister · Hume · CP -- It is not the intention of the Government to oppose the motion. Honorable members will realize that extraordinary circumstances led to the decision to erect buildings on the proposed site at the rear of the present Parliament House. The expansion of the work associated with the military, naval and air forces has made necessary the provision of additional office space in this Territory. As an ex-member of the Public Works Committee, I fully appreciate the excellent work that that body has performed, and the savings it has effected. I am of the opinion that all works estimated to cost £25,000 and upwards should be referred to that committee for investigation and report. Although the building in which we now meet is supposed to be only the provisional home of the Commonwealth Parliament, I believe that legislation will continue to be enacted within these walls when most of us have passed to the Great Beyond. I am confident that when the Public Works Committee examines this project, it will appreciate the work that has been done by the present Minister for the Interior in order to make better provision for officers who now are f orced to work in congested buildings under unhygienic conditions. {: .speaker-JXL} ##### Mr Frost: -- That has been going on for years. {: .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr COLLINS: -- It is a matter for regret that former governments, in times of peace and prosperity, were not more enthusiastic about the development of the National Capital; but it is useless for us now to bemoan the past and draw attention to what should have been done years ago. The fact is that some things which might have been done were not done. The site selected adjoins the existing secretariats. That is an essential requisite of the new offices. The strongest criticism of the Government's proposal has been directed against the erection of buildings of a temporary nature on a site reserved for the permanent Parliament House. No one can visualize when that Parliament House will be built; but I assume that when the time comes to build it architectural designing will have undergone many changes. When the permanent Parliament House is built, I hope that it will stand on Camp Hill in all its grandeur, for the benefit of those who will follow us in conducting the affairs of what will be then a much more developed country. When it is decided to proceed with the erection of the permanent Parliament House, I presume that there will be a world-wide competition for the most suitable design; but when that time will come no one can say now. From my association with the department as Assistant Minister, I can assure honorable members that the Minister and his officers have been greatly overworked, and, as I have said, they have done well in seeking to provide better facilities for carrying on the work of the departments. Question resolved in the affirmative. {: .page-start } page 90 {:#debate-50} ### ADJOURNMENT Defence of British Malaya - Equal Pay *for* Men and Women - Abbco BREAD Company - International Situation - Am FORCE Fatalities - Re-employment of MILITARY Trainees - Housing Munition Workers. Motion (by **Mr. Fadden)** proposed - >That the House do now adjourn. {: #debate-50-s0 .speaker-JPN} ##### Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke .- I desire to know when I may receive an answer to the following question which I have addressed to the Acting Prime Minister, and which I have had on the notice-paper for two days - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Under whose control and direction are the Australian Forces that have been sent to Singapore? 1. Will he assure the Australian people that these Forces will remain under the control and direction of the Australian Government ? 2. Will he assure the Australian people that these Forces will never be used except for the defence of Singapore in particular and of British Malaya (i.e., the Straits Settlements and the Federated Malay States ) in general against actual attack or invasion? I preface the second matter to which I wish to draw attention by a quotation from press notes issued by the Council of Action for Equal Pay which reproduced the following item from the *Sydney Morning Herald* of the 26th February, 1941 :- {: .page-start } page 90 {:#debate-51} ### WOMEN FOR AIR FORCE - TO BE ENROLLED AS RADIO OPERATORS {:#subdebate-51-0} #### Shortage of Men {:#subdebate-51-1} #### Melbourne, Tuesday About 250 qualified women wireless and teleprint operators will be enrolled immediately to fill ground staff vacancies in the Royal Australian Air Force. This was announced to-day by the Minister for Air, **Mr. McEwen,** who said that the women would serve until they could be replaced by qualified men . . . Recruiting, .and training of men would continue, but it is not possible to say how long it would be before the shortage would be remedied. Meanwhile, qualified women wireless operators would be enrolled for duty with a women's auxiliary to the Royal Australian Air Force. **Mr. McEwen** said that members of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force would be drawn from the Women's Voluntary National Register, compiled in 1939 at the direction of the Federal Government. They must be qualified operators, aged between 18 and 40, and medically fit. Service would be full time, and rates of pay about two-thirds of those of men in the corresponding Air Force Trade groups. {: type="i" start="1"} 0. . The War Cabinet had also decided to enrol a few women as waitresses, cooks, and kitchen hands for nurses' living quarters at Royal Australian Air Force hospitals at main stations. Neither I nor anybody else with intelligence objects to the employment of women in any position. I believe that the field of employment for women is always widening, and rightly so, but I am in agreement with the policy of the Labour party that, if women are employed on the same class of work as men, they should receive the same remuneration. To treat them otherwise is unjust to the women, because it denies them a fair wage for their work, and it is unjust to the men because it tends to displace men by the competition of women. In this case, the Government is drawing these women from the voluntary register, and a large number of those it is drawing are women who have no need at all to be working for their living. Because of that fact, and because they have parents on whom they can rely, they are able and willing to take work at the remuneration offered by the Government, thereby displacing women who need employment and need wages. I submit that that is not fair. I do not wish to deny these women an opportunity to obtain employment, but, if they seek employment, they should do so on a competitive basis. In my opinion, the only true competitive basis is that of equal payment for work of the same kind performed by men and women. When men and women are doing the same class of work, either they are doing it equally well or they are not. The suggestion is that this work will be done equally well by these women as by men, and, therefore, I believe that the women should be paid equal rates. {: #subdebate-51-1-s0 .speaker-KOQ} ##### Mr McCALL:
Martin .- Today I requested the Minister for the Army **(Mr. Spender)** to read a report on the Abbco Bread Company Proprietary Limited contract. I did so because I believe this subject to be of urgent public importance. I now wish to .say that the Minister was unwise in not at least asking the House whether it desired the report to be presented immediately, or whether members desired to peruse it. I do not suggest that the Minister, by his action, showed a wish to suppress the report, but I think that his action was somewhat indiscreet. In my opinion, there is definite justification for the immediate consideration of this most extraordinary case. Out of the Minister's statement arise several important facts. The first is the re-letting of the contract to the Abbco Bread Company Proprietary Limited after it had been convicted of what was declared by the magistrate to be fraud which bordered on corruption, and for which a very heavy penalty was inflicted. The report referred to by the Minister deals on page 1 with the circumstances under which, after conviction, a further contract was given to the company. It points out that fresh tenders were called for, and' that that of R. J. White, being the lowest, was accepted. Subsequently the tender was cancelled, because R. J. White was unable to fulfil the contract. Then further tenders were invited, under the same conditions as those under which the previous contract had been let. The report states that the District Contracts Board said that, in view of its urgency, the matter was referred by telephone to the Contracts Board in Melbourne, and that advice was received that ministerial authority might be anticipated. The District Contracts Board therefore recommended that the lowest tender submitted by the Abbco Bread Company Proprietary Limited be accepted. There is no question whatever of investigating the justification for granting this company a renewal of its contract after it had been convicted on these serious charges. There is no suggestion in this report that ministerial approval was ever given. One might also ask who was the Minister at the time. In my opinion, this should have been stated in the report. This comes on top of a very serious charge that has been levelled against those conducting the affairs of this company, and also against the army officials associated with it, particularly Captain Rigney. The presiding magistrate stated that systematic fraud had been practised. Therefore, the fraud was not due to a momentary lapse. The ex-magistrate, **Mr. McMahon,** who was called in to give his opinion on the matter, when the Minister of Justice was considering whether he should reduce the fine, said that there was, no doubt, an intention to defraud. The presiding magistrate remarked that **Mr. Raith,** the managing director of the company, could not be regarded as a witness of truth, and again he said " I have no doubt that he was practising a systematic fraud ". It is stated freely that the manager is of German birth, and was interned during the last war. That statement is easily capable of either verification or refutation. Although Raith denied association with the German Club, there are witnesses to say that he has had associations with it. **Mr. Tuck,** the Superintendent of Weights and Measures, who was called in to investigate the matter, asked why, if the company's claim that the bread was not of short weight was correct and justified, the company withdrew its appeal. **Mr. Nott,** the Under-Secretary to the Department of Justice in New South Wales, endorsed the magistrate's report and went on to say that the Defence Department apparently did not take proper steps to see that the correct weight of bread was supplied. Acting on these reports, the Minister of Justice decided that there could be no reduction of the fine. After representations had been made, not through the correct channels but by back-door methods, the fine was subsequently reduced. I shall not go into the matter from that aspect because it has already been discussed fully elsewhere. It is also important that we should find out definitely why the District Contracts Board saw fit to re-let this contract to the Abbco Bread Company Proprietary Limited, and also to allow Captain Rigney to remain in control of the receiving and checking of the bread delivered by this company after the magistrate had severely condemned it. The Minister for the Army has said that this is only an interim report, but it is an extraordinary kind of interim report since it covers almost the whole history of the case. The magistrate stated that the evidence showed that Captain Rigney had not exercised proper 'judgment in carrying out his duties, that he, in other words, was negligent. Nevertheless, although that information was before it, the Contracts Board saw fit to allow this man to continue his work of checking supplies, not from a company which had no conviction against it, but from the very same company against which a serious charge had been proved. In his report the Minister stated : - >I am unable to state whether or not the army received its correct quantity of bread by bulk weight. The proceedings were taken eight months ago, and surely, if there were in existence a proper system for receiving and- checking quantities supplied, a matter of this kind would have been determined long ago. There is evidence of the most extraordinary lack of efficiency in the checking of supplies. Surely there are books of record which can be consulted. {: .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- Rigney has been promoted now to the rank of major. {: .speaker-KOQ} ##### Mr McCALL: -- That is so. It should not take eight months to find out whether the correct weight of bread was supplied. It is significant that, upon further investigation, Captain Rigney's record as a business man has been called into question. It has been established that he is an undischarged bankrupt, formerly carrying on business as a money lender. The report of the Inspector-General of Administration. **Mr. Davies,** contains the following reference to him : - >The cause of bankruptcy would appear to be losses incurred in carrying on the money.lending business, due, in my opinion, to a large extent, to incompetent management, lack of knowledge of trade results and excessive drawings. > >That the bankrupts have brought on and contributed to their bankruptcy by culpable neglect of their business affairs. This man, with a staff under him, was charged with the duty of seeing that correct quantities of food were supplied under contract, and of protecting th& interests of the Army and of the public Now it has been proved that he was incapable of managing even his own affairs. This matter must be seriouslyagitating the public mind, and must tend to undermine the morale of those in thefighting services, as well as of those at home who are working on their behalf. The Government is not relieved of responsibility because a royal commission is being appointed by the Government of New South Wales to inquire into thecase. If the Acting Prime Minister **(Mr. Fadden)** has not already doneso, I suggest that he carefully examine the terms of reference of the royal commission to be appointed in New South Wales, and he will see that they are very narrow in scope. They contain no reference to the matters which I have been discussing, because those matters are federal in their character. Therefore, a federal inquiryis necessary. Some days ago I asked the Acting Prime Minister if he would consider the appointment of a joint Commonwealth and State commission such as_has been done on previous occasions when it was necessary to inquire into something which touched both State and Commonwealth interests. He replied that full consideration would be given to every aspect of the matter, and that necessary action would be taken. He did not say whether he would give consideration to the appointment of a Commonwealth, or of a joint Commonwealth and State commission. I now ask him again if, after perusing the report, he will consider the appointment of such a commission. I say also that the powers of such a royal commission should be extended to enable it to inquire into matters other than the Abbco bread case. There is another scandal of as great, if not greater,, importance to the people of Australia. I refer to the boot scandal. A royal commission might also inquire into the methods of usurers, who are exploiting small army contractors by demanding extortionate rates of interest. Those are three matters which urgently demand inquiry, and, in view of the fact that so far nothing has been done by the Government, I am prepared to test the feeling of the House on them. {: #subdebate-51-1-s1 .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN:
Batman .- I take advantage of this opportunity when the Acting Prime Minister **(Mr. Fadden)** and the Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Curtin)** are both in the chamber to refer to a matter upon which I have already spoken sporadically, but which, I think, deserves a little more detailed consideration. On Wednesday, the 12th March, I addressed the following questions to the Acting Prime Minister: - >Did the Acting Prime Minister, on or about the 13th February of this year, cause to issue for public information an important statement on the international situation, concluding with these words: "We think we should tell the people of Australia that it is the con sidered opinion of the War Council that the war has moved to a new stage, involving the utmost gravity"? Was this statement published over the signatures of persons other than responsible Ministers of the Crown, and if so why was it not supported, since support was considered necessary, by responsible persons only, with the weight and authority of the War Cabinet? The Acting Prime Minister replied as follows : - I shall reply adequately to the question on the occasion of the meeting of the House, which will be held after the adjournment. The Acting Prime Minister was there referring to a secret meeting of senators and members which followed immediately afterwards. I declined to regard the matter as one of secrecy, or as affecting anybody but the people of Australia. For reasons already given I thought it wiser, and more in consonance with my duty, not to attend that secret meeting, though I have no quarrel with those who thought otherwise, whether they belong to my own party, or to the party of the Government. But in any case I was unwilling to be led into an exchange of confidences on a matter purely of constitutional propriety with the acting head of a government to which I am politically opposed. Nothing of a secret nature was involved in this matter. I did not ask for the revelation of secrets, and I had none to reveal. Indeed, for the purposes of what I am now saying, but for those purposes only, I am prepared to concede that the war had reached a stage of the. utmost gravity. I consider that the war has been at the stage of the utmost gravity for months past, and that it is still so. I may, of course, on another occasion, have something to say about needlessly depressing the people by sensational public statements made without suggesting in any degree what the people are expected to do about it. That is not the point now. The point is my objection to a nongovernmental and irresponsible body - a body foreign to the Constitution, and, indeed, almost a stranger to the law - assuming governmental functions with which it has not been officially clothed, and that, moreover, to the exclusion of His Majesty's accredited Ministers of State, which I say no less emphatically because I am opposed to those Ministers on fundamental grounds of policy. The fact that there are Labour members on the War Council is beside the question too. I do not desire the issue to be clouded by party considerations. Responsible government in this country was too hardly won to be made a stake in the game of party politics, or to be a thing to be hawked about for political barter. There has been much loose talk recently about a National Government. The only national government that democracy recognizes is government rooted in the will of the people, and approved by the representative body that the people set up, .namely, the parliament. Any government handpicked by a clique of interested persons, or foisted on the people by primitiveminded propagandists, is a fraud on the electorate as a whole. Applying those principles to this particular case, not as an exclusive instance but as a good illustration, the position shortly stated is that on the date in question the Acting Prime Minister, not as such, but as a member of and speaking for the Advisory War Council, and over the signatures of members of that body, made an important governmental declaration involving three things: First, the international position as the council saw it; secondly, steps that had been taken to meet the situation ; and, thirdly, the policy to be pursued in dealing with the situation in the future. The War Cabinet was deliberately placed in a position of subordination. It had not been consulted about any of the matters mentioned, although it was indicated that those matters would be referred to the War Council for review after effective action had been decided upon and taken. by the Advisory "War Council. This positive action was taken, too, not only over the heads of the Cabinet, but also in association with the perfectly amusing declaration that the matter would be later considered by the heads of the services. The history of this country is studded with the names of great men who have, by their sacrifice and courage, incontestably established the principle of ministerial responsibility. The Trades Hall in Victoria displays the portrait of a man - not a Labour man - the late **Mr. Justice** Higginbotham, whose name is honoured for his association with that great fight in that State. Ministers may be, in particular cases, either immature or sensation-minded, but being which they are - Ministers of the Crown - they are entitled to the status and respect which they ordinarily receive as the instruments of the democratic theory. They remain, however we may dislike it in particular instances, the accredited instruments of the democratic theory, the modus of expression of the popular will. The War Council, if it is anything beyond a grandiloquent name, is what I have described it to be; but, in any case, it is purely advisory, and as such, and such only, was recommended by the great Labour movement of which I have the honour to be a member. Policy is not merely a programme of events to happen. It is on the lips of the chief Minister of State, a declaration of the corporate mind of the people. I must, therefore, with great respect, remind the accredited Leader of the Opposition - a position which he holds as of right with great distinction - that when he states that he accepts full responsibility for his public statement on the international position - things done and to be done - he accepts something which he has not been offered by any competent authority, and his acceptance of it in the minds of democratic people is neither desired or approved. If any person has an itch to assume governmental powers, and I say this generally, and quite impersonally, let him join the Government, if the Government desires him, and his presence in the Government is acceptable to a majority of the members of this House. The statement made by the Acting Prime Minister as head of the War Council, not head of a government, with all its implications, was improperly and presumptuously made, and should be reprobated by every true lover of the system of government for which men are being asked to fight and die. {: #subdebate-51-1-s2 .speaker-009FQ} ##### Mr CURTIN:
Leader of the Opposition · Fremantle -- It is obvious that any statement made by the Government, as a government, is responsibly made; but if the Government, as the result of what this Parliament has approved, sets up an advisory war council and says that, in respect of the grave emergency in which the country finds itself, it will have the benefit of the advice of the War Council, anything it does as the result of such advice is irresponsibly done. If the Government alone takes action, such action is properly and constitutionally taken ; but if it takes action as the result of what the Advisory War Council advises it to do, the honorable member for Batman **(Mr. Brennan)** would have us believe that that is a violation of the fundamental principle of responsible government. I submit that, despite the very great care which the honorable member has taken to prepare his speech, his effort has been a case not of love's labour lost but also vainly lost. He has achieved no purpose. The statement which was made by the three leaders was made as the result of the consultation which took place at the Advisory War Council. It was made by the leaders of parties because, as leaders of parties, they felt that it was due to the people of Australia to let them know at least that the situation was exceedingly grave and fraught with danger. I know of no better way to produce a united realization on the part of the people of Australia of the fate which they hold in common, than for the leaders of their respective political parties jointly to intimate to them that that is the case. The matter has been ventilated previously, I had something to say about it yesterday. Now, I have nothing to unsay regarding anything which I said yesterday or with which I have been associated in connexion with this affair. {: #subdebate-51-1-s3 .speaker-KCF} ##### Mr DEDMAN:
Corio .- I take this opportunity to bring forward two matters of considerable importance. The first arises out of an unsatisfactory answer to a question which I submitted to-day to the Minister for Air **(Mr. McEwen),** relating to the conveyance of the bodies of victims of air accidents. Approximately 84 fatal accidents have occurred in the training operations of the Royal Australian Air Force since the outbreak of war. Honorable members should bear in mind that a Royal Australian Air Force recruit who enlists in Victoria, might be trained in Queensland, New South Wales or even further afield, whereas, an infantry man is usually trained in the State in which he enlists. Comparing the two services, accidents are fewer in the training of the infantry than in the Royal Australian Air Force. In the circumstances, "provision should be made for the Government to bear the cost of conveying the bodies of Royal Australian Air Force victims from the scene of the accident to the place where the relatives desire the remains to be interred. The cost would be so paltry that the Government could not, with justification, advance the expense as an excuse for declining to adopt my proposal. In the two cases that have been brought to my notice, the co3t of conveyance in each instance would not have exceeded £15. On that basis, the expense that would have been incurred by the Government in conveying the remains of the 84 Royal Australian Air Force victims would be between £1,000 and £2,000. That is small compared with the value of retaining the loyalty of the relatives, who might develop a grudge against the Government for its meanness in debiting them with the cost. Out of sentiment, if for no other reason, the Government should accede to my request. Regulations issued under the National Security Act have proved inadequate to ensure the re-instatement in employment of men who have been called up for compulsory military service. To satisfy the court, an employer has only to contend that a compulsory military trainee was temporarily employed by him and, therefore he had no obligation to re-engage him. A number of cases of this kind have occurred in my electorate, and whenever I have investigated them, that excuse has been advanced. But the great majority of men who are called up have no security of tenure. A week's notice is all that is required to terminate their employment. The case which I propose to cite is particularly bad." The man concerned, a lieutenant of the Militia, had given up his leisure in peace time in order to equip himself to defend his country. On two previous occasions, he had undergone training in camp, but after the third period, the firm, Dennys Lascelles Limited, woolbrokers, of Geelong, refused to re-instate him. An action was brought against his employers under the national security regulations, the charge being that they had failed to comply with the regulation dealing with the re-instatement of civil employees. The firm pleaded, in defence, that although the man had been in its employ for two years prior to his entering camp, he was only a temporary employee. Thereupon judgment was given in favour of the firm, and the man, who is now unemployed, has no redress. The Government should tighten up the regulations so as to ensure that men who volunteer or who are called up for military training, are granted adequate protection in the matter of re-employment. In this case, the position was aggravated by another point. At the outbreak of war, the firm posted the following notice in its works : - >The Directors expect every single man of military age to offer himself to his country by enlisting for military service. Ae far as it is humanly possible, a position will be found for all permanent employees able and desirous to come back to the service of the company on their return. The words, " offer himself to his country by enlisting for military service " imply service, not in the Militia, but abroad. This firm is evidently so imbued with the spirit of forcing men into the Australian Imperial Force that it goes to the length of saying that its employees are expected to enlist, but when one employee who, for his own reasons - I neither know nor seek to know them - enlists in the Militia instead, it refuses to re-employ him after his period of camp training. I ask the Government to revise the regulations in order to ensure that all men who are called up or who volunteer for service in the Militia are given the opportunity to regain their employment when their period of service is over. {: #subdebate-51-1-s4 .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr CALWELL:
Melbourne .- On behalf of the honorable member for Reid **(Mr. Morgan),** I ask the Minister for Air **(Mr. McEwen)** to indicate the comparative rates of pay and conditions of employment of men and women employed in the Royal Australian Air Force as wireless operators or on other duties, to whom reference was made earlier by the honorable member for Bourke **(Mr. Blackburn).** On my own behalf, I support the principle of equal pay for the sexes which was advocated by the honorable member for Bourke. The Government should not follow the practice which for decades has been followed by employers throughout Australia of employing women at a wage rate which is two-thirds of the rate paid to males. That is one of the obsolete principles that have to go before the new order is finally launched. {: .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr Blain: -- What new order? {: .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr CALWELL: -- The new order that a lot of people in this community talk about when danger confronts them. I do not believe that they are honest in their protestations of a new order. I believe that the capitalist order will continue for a long time if the wealthy classes continue to control the press and the radio. Unless the intelligence of the Australian democracy changes, there will be no willing surrender of privileges and prerogatives by those who control production. {: .speaker-JPT} ##### Mr Blain: -- Is that Hitler's new order? {: .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr CALWELL: -- There is no sympathy for Hitler or Hitlerism on this side of the House whatever may be said of some of the wealthy people who support the Government. The honorable member for Adelaide **(Mr. Stacey),** who interjects, is a self-confessed, strikebreaking, wage-reducing, slave-driving enemy of the workers of Adelaide, and of Australia, who boasted in this House how he broke a strike by starving men back to work. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr Stacey: -- That is a lie ! {: #subdebate-51-1-s5 .speaker-JVR} ##### Mr SPEAKER (Hon W M Nairn: -- Order! I ask the honorable member for Adelaide **(Mr. Stacey)** to withdraw that expression, and the honorable member for Melbourne **(Mr. Calwell)** to withdraw the words which provoked it. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr Stacey: -- I withdraw. {: .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr CALWELL: -- Must I withdraw all the nouns and all the adjectives? {: #subdebate-51-1-s6 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Yes. {: .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr CALWELL: -- Then I also withdraw the words to which exception has been taken. I was provoked to make those observations upon the unsatisfactory social and economic system under which we live by interjections malevolently, but also pleasantly, made by the honorable member for the Northern Territory **(Mr. Blain).** There is a tendency to employ women in government establishments at a smaller remuneration than is paid to men in similar occupations. Last August more than 1,000 women were employed in munitions establishments in Melbourne, and in December their number was 4,000. I am told that no less an authority than **Mr. Essington** Lewis went through the works and said that certain operations then performed by men should be performed by women, and that the men should be transferred to other occupations. I have not the slightest doubt that the transfers were made and that women were engaged at a smaller remuneration than that earned by the men. I protest against that. It is on all fours with the proposal of the Department of Air to employ women at lower rates than are paid to men for the same class of work. In all States of Australia for many years there has been an unhealthy tendency to employ more and more women in industry, but Victoria has the unhappy distinction of being the worst offender. In many respects it is the State of " Sweatoria ". I object to the principle of employing women at lower rates than men being resorted to by the Commonwealth Government in this time of crisis. I make my submission to the Acting Prime Minister **(Mr. Fadden)** in support of other recommendations which have been made, and I hope that at an early date we shall hear of a changed attitude onthe part of the Government. {: #subdebate-51-1-s7 .speaker-KCM} ##### Mr DRAKEFORD:
Maribyrnong -- Of several matters which I could raise I choose, because of the lateness of the hour, one which concerns a belated action which is being taken by the Government to provide housing for munitions workers in the Maribyrnong area. The difficulty that, those workers have experienced in finding housing has received considerable press publicity. It is said in the press that persons compelled to move to the district are being exploited by people who have housing available, and that those who leave houses sell the keys for sums ranging from £1 to £10. That shows the scarcity of housing. I do not suggest that the Acting Prime Minister **(Mr. Fadden)** and the Government are not interested, because, in the Macquarie electorate, at Lithgow, particularly, the Government has undertaken to provide 100 houses for munitions workers. I readily concede that houses cannot be created by wishful thinking or even rapidly, and I understand that an officer of the Department of Labour and National Service, of which the honorable member for Fawkner **(Mr. Holt)** is the Minister, will visit Melbourne next week to investigate the housing shortage there. {: .speaker-F4T} ##### Mr Fadden: -- That is so. {: .speaker-KCM} ##### Mr DRAKEFORD: -- But the urgency of the problem is not realized by the Government. That is demonstrated by the fact that a letter on the subject which I wrote on the 17th February to the Minister for Social Services, was referred by him to the Minister for Munitions and by him to the Minister for Labour and National Service, and is not yet definitely answered. I have conversed with the Minister who is now handling the matter, but when one realizes that the Melbourne papers, particularly the *Herald,* which launched the campaign, contain up to two columns a day on the subject, one is placed in a very invidious position when one cannot receive an answer to the representations made prior to the beginning of the campaign. For that reason I ask that something be done, and that my colleague, the honorable member for Corio **(Mr. Dedman),** and I be informed as to the action to be taken by the Government. Surely when we await action on representations made by us we are entitled to information regarding the intention of the Government so that we may convey it to the people interested. As it is now, we have to depend on what we read in the press. I do not suggest that that attitude has been adopted intentionally, but it is contrary to accepted parliamentary practice if not a breach of parliamentary etiquette. The works are in my electorate, and the areas in which homes could be erected to house the workers are partly in my electorate, but largely in that of the honorable member of Corio. We are both vitally interested in this matter. Early attention should be given to it. Another phase of the matter which should receive consideration is the volume of traffic in the vicinity of the works which, at knock-off time, would amaze anybody. It is almost impossible to proceed against it. The peak occurs during a period of from ten to twenty minutes after knock-off time and is caused principally by the great number of people who cannot secure accommodation close to the works. Some of the workers who have come from the country have been compelled to live as far away as Oakleigh, Chelsea, Mitcham and Ringwood.These two phases merit the prompt attention of the Government. Until something is done to relieve these unsatisfactory conditions, which still exist in spite of repeated representations that they should be remedied, I shall not refrain from expressing my views in this House in regard to them. {: #subdebate-51-1-s8 .speaker-F4T} ##### Mr FADDEN:
Acting Prime Minister · Darling Downs · CP -- *in reply* - The complaints and observations made by honorable members during the debate on the motion for the adjournment will be brought under the notice of the appropriate Ministers. Question resolved in the affirmative. {: .page-start } page 97 {:#debate-52} ### PAPERS The following papers were pre sented : - >Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. - 1941 - No. 3 - Commonwealth Public Service Clerical Association. No. 4 - Professional Radio Employees Institute of Australasia. Commonwealth Public Service Act - Appointments - Department of - Civil Aviation - J. B. Abel. Interior - M. B. Cox. Labour and National Service - M. A. Hunter. Customs Act - Proclamation prohibiting the Exportation (except under certain conditions) of Dried Tree Fruits. Medical Research Endowment Act - Report by National Health and Medical Research Council on work done under the act during 1940. National Security Act - National Security (General) Regulations - Orders - Prohibiting work on land. Protected area. Taking possession of land, &c. (98). Use of land (19). Regulations - Statutory Rules 1941, Nos. 41, 48, 49. Now Guinea Act - Ordinance - 1940 - No. 10 -Mortgagors' Relief. Northern Territory Acceptance Act and Northern Territory (Administration) Act - Ordinances - 1941 - No. 1 - Mental Defectives. No. 2 - Workmen's Compensation. No. 3 - -Public Service. No. 4 - Income Tax. No. 5 - Licensing. No.6 - Local Courts. Regulations - 1940 - No. 15 (Health Ordinance ) . Raw Cotton Bounty Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1941, No. 32. House adjourned at 4.38 p.m. {: .page-start } page 98 {:#debate-53} ### ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS *The following answers to questions were circulated: -* {:#subdebate-53-0} #### National Insurance {: #subdebate-53-0-s0 .speaker-KCM} ##### Mr Drakeford: d asked the Minister for Social Services, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many (a) lodges, (b) unions, (c) friendly societies, and (d) other similar organizations participated in the national insurance scheme? 1. What was the amount of obligation to each of them by the Government when the scheme was not proceeded with! 2. To what extent have the amounts been liquidated? 3. If all claims have not yet been liquidated, when is it anticipated that they will be finalized? 4. What has been the total cost of the scheme to the Government to date? {: #subdebate-53-0-s1 .speaker-KV7} ##### Sir Frederick Stewart:
Minister for External Affairs · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP -- The information is being obtained and will be furnished to the honorable member. {:#subdebate-53-1} #### Australian Broadcasting Commission : Salaries of Personnel {: #subdebate-53-1-s0 .speaker-JNM} ##### Mr Badman:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA n asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What is the number of persons engaged as officers and staff by the Australian Broadcasting Commission in each of the States respectively ? 1. What was the total amount paid by the commission to the officers and staff in salaries and wages for the financial year ended the 30th June, 1940? 2. What foes were paid to overseas artists during the last financial year, and what fees were paid to Australian artists during the same term? {: #subdebate-53-1-s1 .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr Collins:
CP -- The Minister for the Interior has supplied the following answers : - {:#subdebate-53-2} #### Central Wool Committee {: #subdebate-53-2-s0 .speaker-JNX} ##### Mr Barnard: d asked the Acting Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Who are the members of the Central Wool Committee (Australian) and what are their usual occupations? 1. Have they power to make different prices for Australian raw wool, i.e., (a) for use in goods manufactured for local consumption, or, (&) for use in goods manufactured in Australia and intended for export overseas! 2. Can this committee, without parliamentary decision, enforce any increase in the price of raw wool used in the manufacture of goods for export overseas? 3. If so, under what act or acts can this bc done {: #subdebate-53-2-s1 .speaker-F4T} ##### Mr Fadden:
CP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are ns follows : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The following gentlemen comprise the personnel of the Central Wool Committee: - Chairman - The Honorable **Sir Owen** Dixon, a Justice of the High Court of Australia; representing the wool-growers - Eric Lyle Killen, Douglas Thornley Boyd, Bertie Amos Neville Cole; representing the wool-selling brokers - Frank Nelson Young, Norman John Carson, Thomas Stanley Cheadle; representing the wool-buyers - James Robert McGregor; representing the woollen manufacturers - Frederick Cornelius Laycock. 2, 3 and 4. The functions and powers of the Central Wool Committee are set out in various statutory rules made under the National Security Act 1939-1940, viz.: - The National Security (Wool) Regulations (1939, No. 108) ; the National Security (Wool tops) Regulations (1940, No. 80); the National Security (Price of Wool for Manufacture for Export) Regulations (1941, No. 34). {:#subdebate-53-3} #### Canberra: Additional Office Accommodation {: #subdebate-53-3-s0 .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr Calwell: l asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it intended to proceed with a plan for the construction of two blocks of administrative buildings at Canberra that do not accord with the plans for the permanent development of the national capital? 1. Will he refer the matter to the Public Works Committee for report before any further action is taken? 2. Will he lay on the table the report of the National City Planning and Development Committee on the subject? {: #subdebate-53-3-s1 .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr Collins:
CP -- The Minister for the Interior has supplied the following answers : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. No. 2. Yes. Trade with the Netherlands East Indies. {: #subdebate-53-3-s2 .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr Calwell: l asked the Minister for Commerce, upon *notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been drawn to a statement which appeared in the press of the 12th March, 1941, in which it is asserted that Australia has failed to take advantage of opportunities existing for the sale of many products of its primary and secondary industries in the markets of the Sutch East Indies? {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Is it a fact that the failure to establish, maintain or extend markets for Australian products in the East Indies is due to the causes alleged in such newspaper article? 1. What steps are being taken, or are in contemplation, to see that Australia's surplus fruits, wines, sauces, tinned meat, fabrics, footwear, clothing and other products are properly marketed ? 2. Who are Australia's Trade Commissioner* in foreign countries? 3. Has the Australian Trade Commissioner in the Dutch East Indies been asked to report on the complaints -made in the newspaper article? {: #subdebate-53-3-s3 .speaker-C7E} ##### Sir Earle Page:
CP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. No. 2. Such steps are constantly being taken. 3. North America - **Mr. L.** R. Macgregor, C.B.E., location, New York; China - **Mr. V.** G. Bowden, C.B.E., location, Shanghai; Netherlands India - **Mr. H.** A. Peterson, location, Batavia; Egypt - **Mr. J.** Payne, location, Cairo. 4. No. Special reports on trade opportunities in Netherlands India and Malaya are secured from time to time from the Australian Trade Commissioner. One such report is at present under consideration. The Trade Commissioner is about to visit Australia, and all aspects of trade promotion will be discussed with him. {:#subdebate-53-4} #### Eastern Group Supply Council: Appointment of Sot Bertram Stevens - Publication of Report {: #subdebate-53-4-s0 .speaker-JUQ} ##### Mr Clark: k asked the Acting Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What were the Government's reasons for the appointment of **Sir Bertram** Stevens as Australia's representative on the Delhi Commission ? 1. What are the conditions and tenure of his appointment? 2. What salary or allowance will he receive, and what expenses will be paid? 3. What are the functions of his appointment ? 4. What special qualifications does he possess? 5. What staff will accompany him, and what salaries and expenses are being paid to them? 6. Who were the other applicants for the position ? {: #subdebate-53-4-s1 .speaker-F4T} ##### Mr Fadden:
CP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Because of his wide knowledge of Australian affairs **Sir Bertram** Stevens was regarded by the Government as well fitted for appointment as the Australian representative on the Eastern Group Supply Council. 1. The appointment dated as from 4th March, 1941, and is to be during the pleasure of the Governor-General. 2. Salary is at the rate of £2,000 sterling per annum; entertainment allowance at the rate of £1,000 sterling per annum; motor car allowance not exceeding £300 sterling per annum; and the Commonwealth is to defray the cost of providing an official residence with requisite local staff, or hotel accommodation. In either case the character and status of accommodation is to be equal to that provided for the representative of the United Kingdom on the Eastern Group Supply Council. The cost of such residence or accommodation is to be subject to the approval of the Minister. In addition, travelling allowance of three guineas sterling a day is to be paid while travelling on land and ten shillings sterling a day while travelling in the air or on board ship. 3. To assist in co-ordinating arrangements for the production and supply of munitions and stores in various Empire countries in South and East Africa, Asia and South Pacific areas. 4. Wide administrative experience and knowledge of Australian conditions and production capacity. 5. The following staff have accompanied **Sir Bertram** Stevens. Their salaries and allowances are shown opposite their names: - **Mr. W.** Howie, salary£A.756 per annum. plus £E1,000 per annum allowance; **Mr. O.** C. W. Fuhrman, salary £A.684 per annum, plus £E.600 per annum allowance; **Mr. E.** M. R. Lewis, salary £A.500 per annum, plus £E.500 per annum allowance. {: type="1" start="7"} 0. Applications were not invited for appointment to the position. {: #subdebate-53-4-s2 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: r asked the Acting Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it the intention of the Government to issue to honorable members a full detailed report of the proceedings and decisions of the Delhi conference? 1. If so, what form will the report take, and when is it anticipated that it will be available ? Mr.Fadden. - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows : - 1 and 2. It is not proposed to make a detailed report of the Delhi conference to Parliament, but the Government is prepared to make the report and recommendations of the conference available to the War Council.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 14 March 1941, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1941/19410314_reps_16_166/>.

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