House of Representatives
9 June 1938

15^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- MOVEMENTS OF MINISTER FOR DEFENCE
QUESTION
- HOME-CONSUMPTION PRICE FOR WHEAT
QUESTION
- OVERSEAS AIR-MAIL SERVICE
QUESTION
- TRADE WITH JAPAN
QUESTION
- WIRELESS BROADCASTING
QUESTION
- INCOME TAXATION IN NORTHERN TERRITORY
QUESTION
- CANBERRA COMMUNITY HOSPITAL
QUESTION
- DAIRYING INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- MANUFACTURE OF MOTOR CARS IN AUSTRALIA
QUESTION
- WHEAT INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- EXCISE DUTY ON PETROL
QUESTION
- CUT-GLASS INDUSTRY
PAPERS
NAURU
QUESTION
- NORTHERN. TERRITORY LAND BOARD
QUESTION
- NORTHERN TERRITORY MINING
NATIONAL HEALTH AND PENSIONS INSURANCE BILL 1938
PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE
- Canberra Community Hospital
PAPERS
ADJOURNMENT
- Adelaide Telegraph Branch - Prices- of Foodstuffs - Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms: Staff - Dairying Industry - Ballarat Aerial Pageant - Commonwealth Employees : Disablement Allowance
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
- Search for Oil
- Commonwealth Departments : Transfer to Canbebra
- Postal Department: Telephone and Telegraph Facilities
- Australian Broadcasting Commission: Fees Paid for Broadcasts -Use of Copyright Material,
- Wireless Broadcasting: Sunday Advertising
- Importation of Motor Vehicles and Accessories

Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. J. Bell) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 1968

QUESTION

MOVEMENTS OF MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

Mr CURTIN:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Is it a fact that the Minister for Defence left Canberra for Melbourne early this morning in an AvroAnson bombing plane of the Royal Australian Air Force?Was it intended that the Minister should return from Melbourne in. time to be present at to-day’s sitting ofthis House? Was the visit to Melbourne, undertaken for the purpose of further negotiations, or for re-arranging matters, in connexion with the overseas air-mail service? Is it a fact that the plane in which the Minister travelled had to land on reaching Albury and that the flight was discontinued? Is the Minister now returning to Canberra by motor car, and has the visit to Melbourne been deferred? If this is the case, is the rearrangement of the Minister’s itinerary due to a decision of the Government that his visit to Melbourne should not be made known to the House to-day?

Mr LYONS:
Prime Minister · WILMOT, TASMANIA · UAP

-I am afraid that I cannot reply to all of the questions that the honorable member has asked. As I understand the position, the Minister for Defence had some matters to attend to in Melbourne, and it was necessary that they should be dealt with promptly. To avoid absence from the House for any period longer’ than absolutely necessary, the Minister decided to fly to Melbourne this morning and to return in time to be in his place in this chamber this afternoon. Unfortunately, owing to unfavorable weather conditions, the plane had to land en route, and the Minister is now, I understand, on his way back to Canberra by road.

Mr CURTIN:

– Is it a fact that the urgent business with which the Minister had to deal in Melbourne to-day will not be attended to, since, instead of proceeding to Melbourne by road, he is now on his way back to Canberra?

Mr LYONS:

– It is advisable to trans act the business promptly, and, as I understand that it is now impossible to deal with it from Melbourne, I am hoping that it will be possible to do so from Canberra.

page 1969

QUESTION

HOME-CONSUMPTION PRICE FOR WHEAT

Mr PROWSE:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– In view of the report in the press that it is unlikely that a conference of State Premiers will be called to discuss the problem of a homeconsumption price for wheat; will the ActingMinister for Commerce state whether the Premier of South Australia has any concrete scheme for submission to a conference such as that suggested by him to the Prime Minister? Will the Minister state, further, whether the Premier of South Australia was not largely responsible for the defeat of the Commonwealth’s objectives expressed in the Wheat Act, and will the Minister take steps to convene a conference to consider immediately the urgent necessity for some practical scheme to give effect to a home-consumption price for wheat, or for the provision of an export bounty?

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP

– The Premier of South Australia was in touch with the Government on the subject of the price of wheat, and he requested a conference in Melbourne, but he did not submit any concrete scheme for the consideration of the meeting. I can say, from personal knowledge, that the Premier of South Australia was opposed to the Government, when the last referendum was taken seeking an extension of the powers of this Parliament. As to whether steps will be taken to convene a conference to deal with a home-consumption price for wheat, I point out that this matter was thoroughly discussed at the meeting of the Agricultural Council which took place in Canberra last month, when it was agreed that the Ministers for Agriculture in the various States should formulate a certain scheme, come’ to an agreement among themselves regarding it, and submit it to the next meeting of the council, which is to be held in Perth in August or September.

Later :

Mr RANKIN:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– Has the Acting Minister for Commerce yet conferred with the Prime Minister regarding the request of the Premier of South Australia that the Commonwealth Government should call a meeting of Premiers to devise ways and means to secure a home-consumption price for wheat?

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

– I have conferred with the Prime Minister, and the right honorable gentleman has advised the Premier of South Australia that until the States had something concrete to bring forward he could see no good purpose in calling a conference.

Mr LANE:
BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Prime Minister consider the holding of a referendum on the subject of granting extended industrial powers to the Commonwealth, in order that the foundation may be laid for fixing a home-consumption price for wheat and other commodities, as advocated by the Agricultural Council?

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– The honorable member’s question relates to a matter of important public policy and cannot be dealt with in reply to a question without notice.

– In view of the fact that the revenue obtained from wireless licences issued to listeners seems to be more than adequate for broadcasting purposes, will the Government, as a gesture to encourage national education, consider the granting of listeners’ licences free of charge to schools?

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– The question raised is a financial one, and I can assure the honorable member that, in conjunction with other matters, it will be’ taken into consideration at the time of the preparation of the budget for the next financial year.

page 1970

QUESTION

INCOME TAXATION IN NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr BLAIN:
NORTHERN TERRITORY

-I have received “the following telegram : - “

Section 23 Commonwealth Income Tax Assessment Act exempts income from primary production from Northern Territory until June, 1937, only. Is this exemption - to he extended for further period?

Will the Treasurer state whether it is proposed to continue the concession?

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

– Yes, the Government has decided quite recently to renew, in the first place for another twelve months, the concession which has been granted heretofore.

page 1970

QUESTION

CANBERRA COMMUNITY HOSPITAL

Mr BAKER:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND

– Can the Acting Minister for Health say when the ordinance relating to the Canberra Community Hospital, which was published in a recent issue of the Commonwealth Gazette, will be laid on the table of the House?

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

– I shall go into the matter, and will advise the honorable member in due course.

page 1970

QUESTION

DAIRYING INDUSTRY

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
HENTY, VICTORIA

– Will the Acting Minister for Commerce have prepared, for the information of honorable members, a statement showing the wages paid, the hours worked, and the housing conditions of workers on the dairy farms of the Commonwealth?

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

– I shall do my best to oblige the honorable gentleman.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– In view of the ignorance that has been displayed in some quarters in relation to butter prices, will the Acting Minister for Commerce publish a tame showing the prices charged for butter and other household commodities to-day and 20 years ago?

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I shall endeavour to obtain the information for the honorable gentleman.

CAMPBELL AND H. W. LLOYD.

Mr WARD:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr PERKINS:
UAP

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is “ No “. Investigations are still proceeding.

Later:

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– In view of the fact that some hundreds of persons previously employed in the cut-glass industry have been out of work for over twelve months, can the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs give an undertaking that, the Tariff Board’s report on this subject will be made known to the House and acted upon before the present sittings terminate, in. order to avoid, if possible, further and continued unemployment ?

Mr PERKINS:
UAP

– I shall try to do so. The reason that the report has been withheld is that the Government has been trying to meet the industry in every way. The Government is anxious that work should be re-started as early as possible. The delay is in the interests of the industry.

page 1971

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Northern Territory - Recommendations (December, 1937) of policy in Native Affairs, by Dr. Donald Thompson.

Commonwealth Public Service Act - Appointments of P. E. Disney and W. P. Jones.. Department of the Interior.

Land’s Acquisition Act - Land acquired at - Adelong,New South Wales - For Defence purposes.

Ararat,Victoria - For Defence purposes.

Ceduna, South Australia (2)- For Defence purposes.

In committee: Consideration resumed from the8th June (vide page 1966).

Clause 19-

A juvenile contributor shall be insured under this act for the purposes of medical benefit only, and this act shall not, except where otherwise expressly stated, apply toa juvenile contributor.

That all the words after “act” be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “for all purposes of this act”.

If that amendment be adopted youths under sixteen years of age will be entitled to the same sick benefits as are enjoyed by adult contributors.

The CHAIRMAN:

– As the amendment moved by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) would extend the benefit and therefore increase the appropriation, I rule that it is not in order’.

Mr JAMES:

– In view of your ruling, Mr. Chairman, I now move -

That the clause be postponed.

If that motion be agreed to it will be regarded as an instruction to the Government -

To re-draft the clause so that youths under sixteen years of age will be entitled to sick pay benefits

– If provision to meet these cases is made it must have general application; it would be difficult to apply a means test.

Sir HENRY GULLETT:

– I protest against the provision requiring contributions from juvenile contributors for fourteen weeks before they become eligible for medical benefit. In some instances this might be an extraordinary hardship. If friendly societies made this rule apply to its members they would be obliged to go out of business. We should hesitate to include in a compulsory scheme proposals which would not be acceptable to voluntary contributors or to friendly societies. I appeal to the Treasurer to reconsider the clause.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- I support with much pleasure the proposal of the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James). The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) is quite wrong in his statement that only a few juveniles will qualify as employee contributors under this scheme. The force of economic circumstances compels a large number of juveniles between the ages of fourteen and sixteen years to accept work in factories and other establishments, although most parents are anxious to give their children the best .educational facilities possible and keep, them at school until they are over the age for entry to this scheme as. juveniles.

As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) has pointed out, it is unjust to extract from the juvenile and the employer a tax of 34s. 8d. a year, when the expense involved in the insurance of the contributor will be only 16s. a year, with no possibility of the amount increasing. If the benefitis to be left as provided in the bill, the Government will be taking twice as much as is necessary for the service to be rendered. I disagree with the honorable member for Henty that this sickness benefit should be provided only for juveniles in necessitous circumstances. The adoption of that suggestion would lead to tremendous complications and difficulty. The young people should receive the benefit as a right, or not at all. If it is to be granted, it should be general in its application, irrespective of the economic circumstances of the individual. The economic conditions are such that, in the majority of cases, the contributors will be found to be in necessitous circumstances. Apart from medical service, there should be a payment in cases of sickness.

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

– I agree to the postponement of this clause until a later stage. This will necessitate the postponement of clauses 4S and 49, which also relate to juvenile contributors.

Mr JENNINGS:
Watson

.- I congratulate the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) upon the decision reached by him in regard to this matter. The medical service to be provided is one of the cardinal benefits * of national insurance, ‘ and I congratulate the Government upon having included in the scheme juveniles under the age of sixteen years. This will fill the gap between the school-leaving age and the time when juveniles will be eligible for the full benefits of the scheme. While, in this instance, there is generally a waiting period for sickness benefits in operation in friendly’ societies, the position is different in regard to medical benefits:

Mr BEASLEY:

– Is not the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) entitled to some credit for his proposal?

Mr JENNINGS:

– Yes, and I am congratulating the Treasurer on his decision.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

.- I understand that the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) suggested the provision of sick pay, as well as medical benefits, for juveniles, but the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has given no indication of what may he expected by the committee as the result of the postponement of the clause. It is a serious reflection on this National Parliament that the economic conditions of this country are such that we are called upon to consider the circumstances of juveniles employed in industry between the ages of fourteen and sixteen years. Children are being almost dragged out of the nursery to earn profits for the “ bosses “. It is degrading to find that juveniles aire to be called upon to provide medical benefits for themselves, when the economic conditions should be good enough to enable their parents to do it for them. ‘The juveniles of to-day cannot become proper fathers and mothers of the future if the economic conditions under which they are employed, require them to provide protection of this kind for themselves. The necessity for this provision is a direct threat to our civilization. Talk about “ seeing red ! “ I do “see red”, when discussing a bill containing provisions of this kind.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– I am glad that the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has seen fit to postpone the clause, but I am surprised that so much time elapsed before he realized the importance of taking the course he has now taken. In the second-reading debate, several honorable members, including myself, pointed out that, under the British scheme, 2d. a week is collected from a juvenile, and 2d a week from the employers, whilst the capitation fee is fixed at 9s. a yea>r, or, approximately, 2d. a week for each juvenile contributor.;. <I understand that when, the proposed contribution under this scheme in respect of juveniles was fixed at 4d. a week from the employee and 4d. a week, from the employer, the intention of the Treasurer was to include sickness benefit] I cannot conceive of any actuary suggesting, a contribution of 8d. a week for the provision of medical services costing only 2-^d. a week. How does the Treasurer account for the other 5½d. a week? There appears to have been a slip either in the computation of the contributions, or in regard to the benefits proposed to be derived. If the Treasurer takes more notice of the suggestions made in the second-reading speeches of honorable members a similar set of circumstances may not arise on future occasions.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

– I am pleased that the Treasurer has agreed to the postponement of the clause for the purpose of considering my proposal, which was ruled out of order on the ground that it would increase the appropriation. I desire that provision should be made for juveniles in the form of sick pay or disablement pay. With all due respect to the Treasurer, I point out that he is wrong in suggesting that in only a few cases would this benefit be required. He should make himself conversant with the conditions obtaining on the northern coal-fields of New South Wales.

Mr Casey:

– I should like to do that.

Mr JAMES:

– I invite the Minister to do so. Often a boy has to take the place of the breadwinner for a widowed mother and her other children. Sometimes 70 or SO lads take part in a ‘ competitive examination for appointment as temporary juvenile telegraph messengers. They are appointed from the ages of fourteen to sixteen years, and, when they reach the age of sixteen years, requests are received from all parts of Australia that these temporary employees shall be allowed to remain in employment. The contributions of a juvenile worker will be taken and yet he will not receive any benefit.

Mr Casey:

– He will get free insurance for a period up to a year.

Mr JAMES:

– Should he become sick, he would get sickness payments?

Mr Casey:

– He would get medical treatment.

Mr JAMES:

– Only provided that he had paid contributions for thirteen weeks. But should he become sick before the expiry of thirteen weeks, he would get no medical treatment. In such circumstances, who would pay the doctor? I arn pleased that the Treasurer has agreed to defer consideration of the clause, and I hope that when it comes before the committee again it will provide for both sick and disablement benefits for juveniles.

Mr Casey:

– Disablement benefits are not covered by this clause.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling Downs

– I, too, am pleased that the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has seen fit to postpone consideration of this clause, although, in my opinion, acceptance of the suggestions made would not increase the appropriation. On the contrary, it would adjust or reduce the reserve balance made up of contributions in excess of the visible and known expenditure. I hope that on further consideration of the clause a glaring anomaly will be removed. The point involved is the value to be received for the contribution made. As was pointed out by the Leader of the Opposition. (Mr. Curtin), the contribution will amount to 34s. 8d. a year, whereas benefits valued at a maximum of only 16s. will be available to the insured person. On the face of it, that is inequitable. The Treasurer may be interested to know that the contribution to a friendly society by a juvenile member is 16s. per annum, in consideration of which he receives sickness benefits immediately the society receives notice of his sickness. There is no lapse of thirteen weeks, as is provided for in this measure. Moreover, for lid. a week, or approximately 6s. a year, sick pay at the rate of 8s. per week is available to the junior member. Under this bill the contribution will be 8d. a week - 4d. a week each from the employer and the juvenile employee - and having regard to the general reserve that will be available, it should be ample to meet all requirements.

Mr CLARK:
Darling

.- The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) is to be congratulated on having brought forward this proposal to postpone consideration of this clause, and I am pleased the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has accepted the suggestion. This is one of the most important clauses of the bill. Although it is regrettable that so many youths of tender age are engaged in industry, all youths who are in employment should be entitled to cover under this bill. The bill provides for medical-, sickness, and disablement and other benefits, as well as pensions to aged persons, widows and orphans, and also allowances for dependent children. The first four of those benefits should be available to juvenile employees. It is not necessary to make the provisions in respect of oldage pensions apply to them, as they can contribute towards such pensions when they attain the age of sixteen years. 1 hope that when the clause comes before us again it will be in a form which provides for medical, disablement, sickness and other benefits for juvenile employees and not be left as it now stands, as the result of present discontent among supporters of the Government having been overcome. I am convinced that the granting of these benefits to juveniles would not increase the Government’s’ liability under the bill.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

.- Honorable gentlemen who have criticized this clause do not fully comprehend the extent to which it protects juvenile employees. Such criticism as has been offered appears to be based on the assumption that a juvenile will be employed for the full period between the ages of fourteen and sixteen years, and that whereas the contributions to be paid in respect of his employment will total 34s. 8d. a year, the medical benefit payable to him will be worth only a maximum of 16s. Critics of the clause appear to assume that those are the only benefits which a juvenile employee will receive. That is not so, because a juvenile who has been employed between the ages of fourteen and sixteen years will become eligible for sickness benefits three months earlier than if he did not obtain employment until he reached the age of sixteen years. In that direction alone the youth who has been in employmentbetween the ages of fourteen and sixteen years will derive a considerable advantage.

Mr Beasley:

– That is an empty argument.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– It is not; a youth who is employed between the ages of fourteen and sixteen years may receive sickness benefits three months earlier than if he commences work at sixteen years. If he has not been in employment between; the ages of fourteen and sixteen years, he will have towait six months, or double the period.

Mr Harrison:

-He will have to wait three months at fourteen years, and a further threemonths at sixteen years, making a total of six months. He will have to wait six months in any case.

Mr James:

– The honorable member for Macquarie . (Mr. John Lawson) should sit down.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! Notwithstanding that the Chair has repeatedly called honorable members to order, the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) has persisted in interjecting. I warn the honorable member not to interject again.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– Even if the youth has been employed for only a short period between the ages of fourteen and sixteen years, he will be eligible to obtain sickness benefits earlier than it he docs not start work until sixteen. Further he will become eligible for the medical benefit if between the ages of fourteen and sixteen he has paid only one contribution after the qualifying period had ended. Those honorable members who say that youths willbe exploited under this bill do not fully understand the provision madefor them.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– I say so definitely.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I emphasize the conditions under which medical bene fits will be made available to a lad over fourteen years of age who obtains employment. Should hepay one contribution after he has worked for three months, and then fall out of employment or become sick, he will get free medical benefits without any further contribution until he reaches the age of sixteen, and for a period of up to six months after he becomes sixteen and ahalf years of age. I suggest that the rates have been fixed, according to sound insurance principles, with those facts in mind, because obviously an insured youth cannot be charged merely the bare cost of medical benefit during the period that he is employed, when, after paying fourteen contributions, he may receive full medical benefits for a further two and a quarter years without paying a single contribution.

Mr Fadden:

– Thecontributions under this scheme will be heavier than those payable to friendly societies, and yet the benefits will not be so great.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– That is not so.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– Only one member of the family pays contributions to a friendly society.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– Those who criticize this clause have not established that the benefits under this scheme are not commensurate with those obtained from’ friendly societies. The proposal is sound in every respect.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- In my opinion, an error has been made in calculating either the contribution by the juvenile, or the benefit that he will receive, and, therefore, the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) acted wisely when he agreed to defer consideration of this clause until a careful examination of the whole position had been made. . I have had an analysis made on an actuarial basis of how the adult contribution of 3s. is allocated. It is as follows: Medical benefit, 4d. ; sickness and disability,10d. ; oldage pension,10d. ; widows and orphans, 1s. The employer and adult employee will have to contribute 2d. each for medical benefit for the employee, but the employer and juvenile employee will have to pay 4d. each for the juvenile employee to enjoy the same benefit. The sickness and disability cash benefits for adult persons cost10d. a week and to put juveniles on the same basis as adults would mean that contributions in respect of them wouldbe1s. 2d. instead of 8d. a week. Some allowance must have been made for the fact that the riskwith juveniles is less, or some other factor of which we have not been informed must have been considered. I admit that the juveniles should get sick pay; but in considering this matter, the Government should bear in mind the fact that that pay should not be the same as that provided for adults. If a juvenile earning 15s. or £1 a week were to receive the same sick pay as the adult he would be encouraged to malinger as much as possible.

Mr Frost:

– Rot!

Mr ANTHONY:

– It is not rot. That is human nature. If a boy is going to get, say, 5s. a week more to stop at home than he would get if he went to work it would be a business proposition for him to stop at home.” Although I impress uponthe Government the need to take that aspect of the matter under consideration, I feel that it has already done so. That is the only reason that I can see for fixing the juvenile contribution at 8d. a week. Consideration should be given to the payment of sick pay to juveniles, but the rate of contribution in respect of that sick pay should not be so high as to make it a hardship for the juvenile to find the premium. A good deal of the criticism against this measure has been based on the hardship that will be encountered by employed persons in finding the money to contribute to the fund.

Mr PRICE:
Boothby

.- We have reached the nineteenth clause, Mr. Chairman, and although I have jumped to my feet on every clause, this is the first opportunity on which I have been given an opportunity to say a word in committee.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! If the honorable member is trying to impute motives of partiality to the Chair, I assure him that he is entirely wrong. The Chair is impartial and gives full consideration to every honorable member who rises to speak. The honorable gentleman is out of order.

Mr PRICE:

– I shall leave it go at that.

I am pleased that the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has agreed to postpone this clause so that at a later stage we shall have, I hope, an opportunity to discuss it fully. I am of the opinion that the clause could be amended merely by the insertion of the words “ and sick benefits “, but if that be not the case we shall have to deal with the matter when we reach clauses 48 and 115. I am impressed by the arguments that have been advanced in support of the inclusion of youths in the sick benefit provisions ofthis bill. I should not be surprised if there were honorable members of this committeewho themselves have had at an immature age to contribute materially towards the support of their homes. I have personal knowledge of many boys of tender years who are doing so to-day. Their omission from sick benefit should be rectified.

Clause postponed.

Clause 20 (Free insurance period).

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

– Clause 20 andclause 21, to an extent, have to do with an important aspect of this plan, that is, provision for the free insurance period.Very broadly, the proposal is that when, a man ceases to be employed, loses his job, and so loses the opportunity to pay contributions himself and to have contributions paid for him, his right to insurance does not cease. The object of the Government in these two clauses is to preserve for as long a period as is practicably possible theright of that man to insurance. The main object, of course, is to cover periods of unemployment. The free insurance period will be a very costly partof this national insurance plan, but, at the same time, it is an essential part of the general scheme. The Government has endeavoured to be as liberal as possible.

Mr Francis:

– Isan insured person required to make up contributions after having returned to work?

Mr CASEY:

– No, not necessarily. In some cases, as I shallexplain later, in order to qualify for some of the full benefits, back payments will have to be made; but in the mainthat is not the plan. When a man falls out of employment and so ceases to be a contributor he will have a free insurance period of a maximum of from 18to 24 months, depending on when, during the insurance half-year, he loses his employment. That is to say, if a man loses his ability to contribute at the beginningof the halfyear and is unemployed for sufficiently long a period, he will , be entitled to free insurance for nearly two years; but, if that happens towards the end of the halfyear, the term of free insurance will be reduced proportionately. The, maximum free insurance period will average 21 months.

Mr Beasley:

– Theperiod of free insurance then is dependent on the period of the year in which a man loses his job ?

Mr CASEY:
CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

– That is so. It is because the approved societies and consequently the commission cannot be certain of obtaining information as to when a man. ceases to be a contributor except at the end of the six months’ period when the insurance cards come in. Experience in other parts of the world - and. I daresay it will apply here - shows that many people are not prompt in notifying the approved societies if they lose their employment. The intention of the Government was to limit the free insurance period to eighteen months, but, on further consideration, it saw that in a number of cases an extra six months would be needed, and for the convenience of the administration, it was decided to make the maximum period, two years. .Some of the benefits under the free insurance period depend on a man’s or woman’s previous record of contributions. When I said a little earlier that one of the main objects in the creation of this free period was to keep a man in insurance, I meant that if a man is kept in insurance during a period of unemployment it will not be necessary for him to requalify for the benefits of insurance. But, after he has definitely been out of insurance, when he re-enters the scheme, he will have to qualify for benefits as if he had never been in insurance before. The Government has made the free period as long as is humanly possible.

Mr Lazzarini:

– Even though a man may have been insured for 30 years, if he loses employment for more than two years and thereby passes out of insurance, he will have to requalify for benefits when he rejoins the scheme?

Mr CASEY:

-Yes. In the free insurance period medical benefit will continue for the whole term. That is to say, the .individual previously a contributor who has lost his employment will receive free medical attention and free medicines irrespective of his record of previous contributions. Should a contributor start with a good record of contributions his sick and disablement benefits would continue for eighteen months without diminution. Should he have less than a full measure of contributions in the ^period .before his free insurance commenced

Mr Lazzarini:

– What is meant by a “full measure of contributions?”

Mr CASEY:

Mr CASEY:

-Voluntary contributors are dealt with elsewhere. I do not suggest for a moment that it is easy to get an accurate conception of the free insurance period ; but I, can assure honorable members that the Government has done its best to make this free insurance period as liberal as is possible in a real endeavour, particularly in respect of the interpretation of clause 71, to get as many persons as is possible into full insurance, and once having got them in, if they should lose their employment, to deal with them as generously as is possible. I remind the honorable member for Darling Downs (Mr. Fadden), who has made some calculations in respect of contributions and benefits, that possibly, he has not taken into account thecost of the free insurance period. It is definitely one of the benefits under this measure, and a fairly costly one.

Mr CLARK:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · LANG LAB; ALP from 1936

– I am not quite satisfied with the explanation of the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) regarding the position of juvenile contributors. This clause states that the provision shall apply to all insured persons, other than juvenile contributors, who cease to be employed, &c. The Minister has stated that they will be covered under clause 48, but clause 48 states that -

A juvenile contributor shall not be entitled tomedical benefits until the beginning of the fourteenth week after the week in which he entered into insurance.

Mr BEASLEY:

– If he goes on to the free insurance period which runs to eighteen months, and just before that period has expired, he falls sick and produces a certificate from his panel doctor, could his period be extended by six months? Could he go on to sickness or disablement benefits after the expiration of half that period?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order! The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr JOLLY:
Lilley

.- Is an employee deemed to have paid his contribution once his employer has deducted it from his wages? I ask that question because under the Queensland unemployment relief tax legislation which provides for the payment of contribution by means of stamps as is set out in clause 42 of this measure, there have been cases in which an employer has failed to buy stamps, and similar cases may arise under this scheme.

Mr Casey:

– That point is covered by a whole set of provisions in this measure.

Mr JOLLY:

– But in some cases the commission will not be able to recover because the offending employer may go insolvent and leave no assets to pay his arrears. In cases of that kind will such failure on the part of an employer prejudice the rights of an employee?

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

– I refer the honorable member to clause 171 (2) which reads -

Any employer who -

fails to pay any contributions which he is liable to pay, or
deducts or attempts to deduct from the wages or other remuneration of an employed contributor the part of the contribution payable by the employer, shall be guilty of an offence.

I want to know whether some status in free insurance can he provided for the subsequent year’s to which I have referred.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I know how difficult it is for the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) to answer hypothetical questions spontaneously. Even if he had been doing nothing elsefor twelve months but studying the scheme it would be impracticable and unfair to expect him to answer at once the questions that have been asked. There are two outstanding questions, however, I wish to ask regarding sub-clause (1) of clause 20. That clauseindicates the circumstances in which the two classes of contributors, compulsory and voluntary, can secure certain periods of free insurance. The sub-clause states the circumstances in which an insured person shall “ be treated for all purposes as if he were an insured person “.He must be unemployed. Does that mean that if he dies during the period of free insurance his widow will be entitled to a pension?

Mr Casey:

– Yes, subject to certain conditions having been fulfilled.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– If during the free insurance period he falls ill would he, on the certificate of a medical officer, be entitled to receive sick pay even though he is not in employment at the time?

Mr Casey:

– Yes.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– The second question I have concerns voluntary contributors. We know perfectly well the qualifications necessary for a compulsory contributor to become entitled to claim free insurance. Subclause (1) says that if a voluntary contributor ceases to pay contributions he becomes entitled to free insurance. Surely it will not be left to a voluntary contributor, on his own initiative, to say, in order automatically to come under the clause, “I am going to cease contributions”. I do not ask the Treasurer to reply immediately, but I hope he will do so before the discussion concludes.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

.- If the honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Jolly) will look at clause 177 he will see that the point he raised has a good deal of substance. An employee loses protection if the employer does not pay contributions in respect of him. The clause deals with cases where the, employer has failed to pay contributions; in which event the employee is deprived of benefits. It is quite clear that the employee’s rights should notdepend on whether the employer is discharging his obligation under the act.

Mr Curtin:

– But not during a period of disablement?

Mr CASEY:

– Yes, certainly. During periods of physical disability, when a man cannot work, his contributions will be deemed to have been paid.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 21 (Extension of free insurance period).

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- The debate on clause 20 has shown the need to keep the administration watertight. I therefore move -

That the following new sub-clause be added : -

For all purposes of this act, the contributions of an insured person shall be deemed to have been paid each week during his free insurance period.

The CHAIRMAN:

– As the amendment would give a benefit to which the insured person would otherwise not be entitled, it would mean additional expenditure from the Consolidated Revenue, and therefore it is not in order.

Mr Blackburn:

– I wish to make a submission in respect of your ruling, Mr. Chairman. I submit that the assumption that it is impossible for a private member to move to increase a benefit under this bill is wrong. I say that without any disrespect to those who have accepted that position. Neither the Standing Orders of this chamber, nor the English practice, which we are directed to accept in the absence of Standing Orders, precludes such an amendment as that of the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) from being moved. I propose to show that the English practice in connexion with bills such as this permits such an amendment to be moved.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! If the honorable gentleman disagrees with the ruling that I have given, his only course is to move dissent from it.

Mr Blackburn:

– I move -

That the ruling be dissented from.

Sir Henry Gullett:

– I rise to a point of order in connexion with the submission of the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn). A similar motion to dissent from the Chairman’s ruling, in which precisely the same principle was involved, has already been decided, and, therefore, the motion of the honorable gentleman must lead to wearisome repetition.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Chair is unable to uphold the point of order.

Mr Blackburn:

– I assure you, sir, and the committee, that I move this motion with the greatest deference to you personally and to the authority of the Chair. I should not do it if I did not think that the acceptance of your ruling would impinge upon the rights of private members in a way totally unauthorized, in my view, by the Standing Orders of this House, and also by the practice of the House of Commons, to which we are bound ‘by our Standing Orders to refer in the absence of directions. I refer, first, to our own Standing Orders. They have already been referred to several times. I differ from some honorable members on this side in that I agree that messages introduced by the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) do not in any way affect the rights of private members in this chamber. I agree with the contention raised by the Treasurer that the messages that were introduced, and the form in which they were introduced, did not take from honorable members any right that they would otherwise have enjoyed. Standing Order 171 reads -

No amendment for the imposition or for the increase of a tax, rate or duty shall be proposed by any non-official member in any committee on any bill.

This bill does not propose any tax, rate or duty; separate bills are to be introduced for that purpose. Nor is there anything in this amendment to impose a tax, rate, or duty. A rate or duty is the same as a tax ; it means the sum of money which an individual taxpayer is called upon to .pay to the community, or to some other person, when called upon to do so. Standing Order 171 clearly has no application to this amendment. I come now to Standing Order 247, which was referred to earlier in the “. discussion on t,his”.bill. As the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Baker)’ remarked a few nights ago, Standing Order 247 is applicable only to a Committee of Supply or a Committee of Ways and Means. This Committee is not a ‘Committee of Supply, nor is it a Committee of Ways and Means ; it is a Committee of the Whole. 1 shall explain the- importance of the qualification later. I point out now that Standing Order 247 applies to Committees of Supply and of Ways and Means. Standing Order 171 applies to taxation. If anything .is to prevent members from, moving such an. amendment as that which has been ruled, out of order, it must be the practice of the English House of Commons to which we are referred in chapter one of the Standing Orders, where it is stated -

In all cases not provided for hereinafter, or by sessional or other orders, resort, shall be had to the rules, forms, and practice of the Commons House of the Imperial Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland in force at thu time of the adoption of these orders, which shall be followed as far as they can ‘ be applied to the proceedings of the House of Representatives.

If there were anything in the English practice to prevent such an amendment from being submitted, the amendment would be out of order; but the English practice is entirely the other way. There is a distinction between a motion in the Committee of the Whole, and a motion in a Committee of Supply or a Committee of Ways and Means. A Committee of Supply deals with Estimates which ask for the appropriation of a definite sum of money, and a private member may not ask that the amount recommended by the Crown shall be increased. A Committee of Ways and Means deals with the methods of raising Supply - whether it shall he by. a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue or by the” imposition of a new tax. Where a definite amount is asked for, a .private member may not propose that it shall be increased. In a Committee of Supply or a Committee of Ways and Means, appropriations of specific amounts are asked for and it is not competent for a non-official member to propose that the amount for which the Crown has asked shall be increased”. That is clear. But here we have a message which has to conform to section 56 of the Constitution ; it asks merely that an appropriation be made, but does not state the amount. The wording is, “ That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made . . : “. The English practice is laid down in the tenth edition of Erskine Mai/, which was the edition in force when this House adopted these Standing Orders. The same passage is repeated, in almost identical language in subsequent editions.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 till 8 p.m.

Mr Blackburn:

– I am challenging the ruling of the Chair, not out of perversity or with ‘ a - - . mere desire to express an opinion,’ but because I believe that I am defending the rights of private members which a popular impression tends to destroy. If I am right, a private member is entitled to move such an amendment as has been moved by the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) ; if I am wrong, he is not so entitled. Before dinner I referred to ‘Standing Orders 171 and 247 which have so often been mentioned in this discussion. Standing Order 171 deals with taxation. Nobody who reads the standing order in good faith can have the slightest doubt about that. It reads -

No amendment for the -imposition or for the increase of a tax rate or duty shall be proposed by any non-official member in any committee on any bill. “ Tax “ includes :< duty “, but it may not include “ rate “. For instance in this national insurance scheme, we have rates of contributions proposed; they are to be submitted in a separate bill because they may be ‘taxes. “ Tax “, “ rate “ and “ duty “ are words which mean some burden imposed upon the individual member of the public, a -liability to pay something. “Duty” may refer to customs duty, excise duty, and stamp duty - all taxes. The word is sometimes used in contradistinction to tax. “ Rates “ may be rates of tax or some other payment. Standing Order No. 171 prevents a nonofficial member from moving an amendment which seeks to impose a new tax or to increase the rate of the tax! .that is proposed. That is quite clear. The words used in our Constitution show that the word “ imposition “ is used in connexion with taxation. Standing Order No. 247, as was pointed out by the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Baker) the other night, relates to proceedings in Committee of Supply and in Committee of “Ways and Means. Those committees deal with specific sums. In Committee of Supply the Grown asks Parliament to vote to it definite sums of money, and it is not competent for any non-official member to propose that the amount asked for shall be increased because to propose that increase would be to ask that money should be taken out of the Crown’s revenue, in excess of what the Crown had authorized or sought. In Committee of Ways and Means, honorable members deal with ways’ of giving the Crown the money already voted in Committee of Supply for its services. That may be done by authorizing the withdrawal of moneys from revenue. In each case a specific sum is being asked for or demanded by the Crown, and no non-official member can move for an increase of the sum which is asked to make good the Supply. But these rules have no application to the proceedings of the committee of the whole House. If we look for rules which have relation to the committee of the whole House, we must look to the practice of the House of Commons to which we are referred by Standing Order No. 1. As will be seen from a study of May, Standing Orders 171 and 247 merely state the English practice, lt is clear to me that Standing Order No. 171, because it relates to taxation only, and Standing Order No. 247 because it relates to’ Committee of Supply and Committee of Ways and Means, have no application. We, therefore, refer to the practice of the House of Commons, and the practice that was in force when our Standing Orders were adopted is set out at page 532 of the Tenth Edition of May. That is the edition we customarily use, but the relevant passages are repeated at page 461 of the twelfth edition and page 510 of the thirteenth edition, which is the latest. The point that I am trying to make is that there is not the slightest doubt that if there had been sent down to us a message from the Administrator, asking for the appropriation of a specific sum for the purposes of this bill, we would be limited in discussion by the fact that amendments, which we proposed to move, might increase the money to be expended beyond the specific sum for which the Crown had asked. But we have nothing of that kind before this committee.- First, we had a message asking for the appropriation of money for the bill, in accordance with the requirements of section 56 of the Constitution, which merely embodies the English practice. Then, because benefits to new classes are to be effected by amendments to be proposed by the Treasurer, a further message was brought down. I cannot see why it was brought down unless it was because new classes- were to be brought in. .’

As is subsequently explained (see p. 580), the constitutional principle which vests in the Crown the sole responsibility of incurring national expenditure, forbids an increase by the Commons of a sum demanded on behalf of the Crown for the service of the State. This principle, however, is apparently disregarded when the recommendation of the Crown is given to a resolution empowering the expenditure of public money which, framed in general terms, places no limitation on the amount of expenditure to be authorized by the resolution.

That I say is this case -

As the resolution sanctions, without any specific limitation, the application of money to be provided by Parliament to certain purposes, when the clauses in a bill founded upon such a resolution arc before the committee, the freedom of action sanctioned by the resolution can be exercised. The committee is not bound by the terms of the provisions which the ministers of the Crown have inserted in the bill; and any member may propose an increase of the grants specified in these clauses, or to extend the application of the provisions of the bill, whatever may be the cost resulting therefrom, so long as the power conferred by the royal recommendation is not exceeded.

The principle laid down in May is that where the Crown has asked for an appropriation, without limiting the amount, members of the committee are at large in moving even to increase the expenditure. I exemplify that by reference to the English legislation of the same kind as that which we are now considering. In England there is a Health Insurance Act and a Widows, Orphans and Old-age Contributory Pensions Act. The method of financing the Contributory Pen sions Act is the same as is proposed in this bill. Clause 111 of this bill is almost a copy of section 14 of the English act; there are contributors and a subvention by the Crown. To the Widows, Orphans and Old-age Contributory Pensions Bill amendments were proposed in the House of Commons which, either directly, by raising the amounts, or indirectly, by bringing -additional persons within the scope of the bill, increased the amounts proposed by the Government. I quote from page 2034 of volume 186 of the British Hansard for the year 1924-25 -

Mr. DALTON: I beg to move, in page 1, line 13, to leave out the word “ ten,” .and to insert instead thereof the word “ twenty.”

I will follow your suggestion, Mr. Speaker, and be brief, but it will not be possible while this Bill is passing through the present stage not once more to raise the question as to the amount of the pension.. The purpose of the Amendment set down by honorable Members, including myself, is to increase the pension of the widow from 10s. to 20s. per week.

No objection was taken to that. The Minister did discuss the inexpediency of placing a greater burden on the Crown than was intended. He said that it would cost about £1,000,000 to do what the amendment proposed. The chairman did not rule the amendment out of order. The practice of the Chairman of Committees in the House of Commons, when asked if an amendment is in order is to say, “I would not put it if I thought that it were out of order “. This amendment was not challenged. Page 2039 shows that a proposal was made to give a benefit to a child. One proposal was that 6s. should be substituted for 5s., and another amendment provided that 4s. should be substituted for 3s. On page 2043, Mr. Pethick Lawrence moved that the word “ widow “ be omitted and the word “ woman “ be inserted in order to bring all women within. the scope of the bill. On page 2050 Mr. Viant moved to increase the amount of pension from 7s. 6d. to 12s. In all these instances no objection was taken to the proposals. I now come to 1929-30 and quote from volume 231 of the English Hansard where a similar, bill was under discussion. An amendment was submitted by Mr. Brown, the member for Leith, that the words “ fifty-five “ be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ fortyfive.” The object of the amendment was to ensure that a widow would get the pension at the age of 45 years instead of 55, which obviously went beyond what the Government intended. Other similar instances occurred in committee, but as my time is limited I shall not be able to cite them. A specific practice has been laid down in the House of Commons that at the report stage of a bill an amendment cannot be proposed to increase the burden upon the public revenue. The practice is laid down in the Manual of Procedure prepared by the clerks of the House. I quote from page 161 of the 1912 edition-

On the consideration of a bill as amended -

a clause or amendment creating a charge on the public revenue, or imposing any tax, rate or other burden on the people, may not be moved.

– That seems strictly relevant. There is also Standing Order 66 of the House of Commons, which the honorable member did not quote. Introduced in 1866, it was current when our Standing Orders were framed and reads -

This House will receive no petition for any sum relating to public service, or proceed upon any motion for a grant or charge upon the public revenue, whether payable out of the consolidated fund or out of money to be provided by Parliament, unless recommended from the Crown.

We desire the right to suggest slight increases in the grant by the Government to State contributions, and certain redistributions in the case of low wage-earners, because under the Government’s financial resolution these amendments will not be possible.

Mr Blackburn:

– That was introducing a new class of persons.

Mr Casey:

– The point is whether the burden will or will not be increased by any amount whatsoever. The class of persons has no relation to it.

Mr Brennan:

– The Treasurer is evading the test which the honorable member for Bourke applied.

Mr Casey:

– The test is whether the amendment moved by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, if carried, would or would not impose an additional charge upon the public purse. That is the crucial and the deciding point. The class of persons has no relation to the matter:

Then Mr. Worthington Evans submitted an amendment, and Mr. Lloyd George, who was in charge of the bill, said -

I understand that it involves am increased charge to the exchequer. This is the only safeguard the Government has with regard to public finance, but, if I thought there was any other way to protect the exchequer, I would not rule it out of consideration.

There are many examples in which similar rulings were given. However, I’ propose to quote one further passage to prove that if there is any doubt in the mind of the Chairman that an amendment might increase the charge upon the Treasury it must be ruled out. When a certain amendment was moved, the Chairman of Committees in the House of Commons said -

In other works it may be more, it may be less, and it may be the same. It may be more, and therefore it is not in order.

As is subsequently explained (see page 580), the constitutional principle which vests in the Crown the sole responsibility of incurring, national- expenditure/ forbids an increase by the Commons of a. sum demanded on behalf of the* Crown for ,the service of the state.’ This principle, however, is apparently ‘disregarded when the recommendation of the Crown’ is given to a resolution empowering -the; expenditure of public money which, framed in general terms, places no limitation on the amount of expenditure to be authorized by the resolution.

What is. meant, by the words “general terms “ ? In this, instance, it means’, a message recommending a sum of ‘, money for the purposes of a bill for ah ‘act to insure employee’s: Obviously, any purpose is relevant which relates to the insurance of employed persons against certain contingencies, &c., as stated in the bill. So long as we are engaged in setting down conditions under which employees may be insured against certain contingencies, we are carrying out the purposes specified in the Administrator’s message. There can he no argument about that. Last night, I had misgivings about the purpose of an amendment because it proposed to provide insurance for persons who were not employees. This amendment, however, relates entirely to employees, and the dispute is as to whether the appropriation, .being of an unstated amount, can be increased by this committee without violating the purposes for which the recommendation was made. I submit that the amendment of the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) is entirely in accord with the purposes of the Administrator’s message. The committee has every right to increase the amount which the Treasurer contemplates to expend. On this point, May states -

The committee is not bound by the terms of the provisions which the Ministers of the Crown have inserted in the bill.

If Parliament were bound to accept the draft of the bill as submitted, it would have been superfluous for the writer to make that comment. May states f further -

Any member may propose an increase of the grants specified in these clauses, or to extend the application of the provisions of the bill, whatever may bo the cost resulting therefrom, so long as the power conferred by the royal recommendation is not exceeded.

Acting on this principle, when, in .1812, a committee was considering a message from the Evince Regent recommending, in general terms, provision to bo made for the family of Mr. Spencer Percival, amendments were permitted for increasing the provision proposed by the Ministers, and this practice has been supported by rulings from the Chair.

In the case of Mr. Spencer Percival, it was proposed that certain grants should be made to his dependants. A message came from the King recommending an appropriation, but no amount was specified, and Parliament increased the amount proposed by the Executive. That ruling has since been sustained. As the honorable member for Bourke pointed out, certain practices followed by this Parliament may not be always soundly based, and I submit that, having regard to the duty of Parliament to represent the interests of a free people, and not to be a mere recording chamber to carry out the wishes of the Executive, the committee will be upholding the principles of democratic government by dissenting from the chairman’s ruling.

Question put -

That the ruling be dissented from.

The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 24

NOES: 29

Majority . . . . 5

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- As my previous amendment has been ruled out of order, I now move -

That the clause be postponed.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

.- As the discussion proceeds justification is found for my remark, on the second reading of the bill, that this scheme is devoid of merit. It seems from the explanations offered by the Treasurer that a. consider– able number of persons who imagine that they will be covered by this legislation will be grievously disappointed. A certain number of payments will have to be made before the insured person can get the alleged benefits of the scheme. In the event of a depression the scheme would definitely break down, and large numbers of persons who had paid into the fund for many years, but lost their employment,would be deprived of the benefits for which they had contributed. Let us consider the case of a young man who becomes insured at the age of sixteen. Should he work until he was 64 years of agc and then lose his employment, so that he could not make his contributions during the last twelve months, he would lose ali rights under the scheme, and if without means, would have to apply for the ordinary old-age pension of £1 a week on reaching the age of 65 years. Although he would get medical benefits he would bedeprived of other benefits which he believed would accrue to him because of his contributions for about 4S years. The Treasurer stressed that the purpose of the Government was to introduce legislation to meet certain contingencies against which people could not make provision. One of those contingencies is a period of depression and unemployment. Instead of imposing penalties upon persons who lose their employment through circumstances over which they have no control, the bill should have contained special provisions to protect them during a period of unemployment. During the course of his lifetime the average unskilled worker faces many periods of unemployment. Irrespective of the number of years that a man has paid into the scheme, should he be unfortunate enough to be out of work for two years, all the contributions which he has paid will avail him nothing, and before he can again qualify for full benefits he will have to secure further employment and be in the insurance field a further two years. The Treasurer would have us believe that the scheme is liberal, but an examination of it will show that the worker, or his widow, will not get much out of it. In New South Wales to-day, as the result of legislation passed by the Lang Labour Government, a widow receives £1 a week and 10s. for each dependent child without any direct contributions being required towards such pension. I should like to know whether her rights to a pension from lbc State will be affected by this scheme of national insurance. “Will the paltry amount that she will receive from the Commonwealth Government be regarded ;is income by the Government of New South Wales or will it supplement the amount received in New South Wales? The discussion has revealed that the measure is so surrounded with qualifications that many people who believed that the scheme would cover them will find that it does not; when they claim their rights those rights will mot be forthcoming. The honorable member for Darling Downs (Mr. Fadden), who I understand is a qualified accountant, showed that the contributions have been fixed at a scale higher than is necessary to yield the benefits of the scheme. The Treasurer will admit that this scheme is based on that in operation in the United Kingdom, which is in credit to the amount of £143,000,000. The contributions to the Commonwealth scheme have been fixed at rates which will enable an. enormous surplus to be built up. That surplus should be used to provide for payments to insured people over periods when they cannot meet their payments. On the basis of contributions set out in the bill, the Government could provide for this extension of benefits, lt has been said that this scheme will give to women a sense of security in that it will provide a national health service and n pension for a widow and any dependent children in the event of the death of the bread-winner. How much security will the wife of an employed man have under this scheme? No man in employment can guarantee that lie will retain his position until he reaction the retiring age. This scheme will not give to him and his dependants the sense of security that lie seeks unless the Government PayE that, irrespective of the circumstances which may prevent an insured person from, making his contributions, he ?hall not lose his benefits. Unless the Government is prepared to do that there win be no real security. The Government represents certain vested interests in the community.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Nairn:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Order! The honorable gentleman is not discussing the clause.

Mr WARD:

– The Government is unwilling to accede to the request of the Opposition, because it is in the hands of outside forces. In my opinion, every argument advanced by the Treasurer has been prepared for him by persons outside Parliament. The honorable gentleman has not submitted his own arguments. I am not concerned about what the actuaries may say as to the measure being wrecked or “thrown out of balance. It is the responsibility of the Government to guarantee the solvency of the scheme. Unless that be done, what will happen to the benefits under the scheme in the event of a depression, or a war ? Should this country become involved in war, men will be called upon to serve in the defence force, and. as during that period they will be relieved of the responsibility to make contributions, the funds will become depleted. The Government does not guarantee that the fund will remain solvent. There is no security. The Government wants to reduce to the minimum the benefits to be provided under this scheme and to restrict them to as few persons as possible.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I rise to a point of order. I submit that the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) is discussing the bill as a whole rather than clause-

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I have already called the honorable gentleman to order.

Mr WARD:

Mr HARRISON:

– He has, to my complete satisfaction. I tell the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) that this bill was never intended- to establish an unemployment insurance scheme. There must be a limit to the free insurance period. I agree that unemployment insurance, to run conjointly with health insurance, is imperative, but this is not a bill in which to introduce it. The Treasurer answered the various points made by the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn), and I should have been content not to speak had it not been for the fact that the honorable gentleman claimed that this scheme is to be 75 per cent, more generous than its British equivalent. Reference was made to the pension for widows. I point out that whereas under the British scheme the pension for a widow on a contribution basis of 5-Jd., is 10s., plus os. for the first child, the pension for a widow under this schemp. on a contribution basis of 10ld.. which is nearly double the British contribution, is 12s. 6d., plus 3s. 6d. for one child - 15.s. in Britain as against 16s. in Australia for about double the contribution The Treasurer, therefore, cannot claim for one moment that in this respect the Australian scheme is more generous than the British. In regard to oldagepensions, for a contribution of 5-Jd. in Britain the pension is 10s. for the husband and 10s. for the wife, a total of 20s., compared with 20s., plus 3s. 6d. foi1 one child, for a contribution of 10^-d. in Australia. The allowance of 3s. 6d. for one child in the Australian scheme can be discounted. The pension does not operate until the age of 65 in respect of men and 60 in respect of women, and I suggest that they would be supreme optimists who would, at those ages, expect to have any children in respect of whom the allowance would be payable. Again, the Treasurer, cannot claim generosity, because the British pensioners receive at almost half the cost benefits almost equal to those which are to be provided under this bill. The pension for an orphan in Australia is to be 7s. 6d. a week for a contribution of 10-^d. whereas the pension for an orphan in Britain is 7s. 6d. for. a contribution of 5½d. I concede that the pension for the second child in Britain is only 6s. Where is the generosity ? The comparison between the Australian and British health benefit provisions gives a similar result.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN This comparison, except in so far as it relates to the subject matter of clause 31, is not in order.

Mr HARRISON:

– The Treasurer has completely satisfied honorable members on this side of the committee and, it honorable members opposite had followed his reasoning they also would have been satisfied: This bill has no reference to unemployment insurance and there must, be a time limit to free insurance. The committee should be prepared to accept the Treasurer’s assurance that the cover imended by the-persons who drafted i.aU bill lias been given to the recipients of benefit under it.

Mr CLARK:
Darling

.- I support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin). The need for insured persons to have cover during periods of unemployment should be apparent to the committee. I direct the attention of honorable members to the revelations made by the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) who pointed out that, as the clause now stands, a person who has been insured all his life may lose his employment at the age of 58 years, be unemployed for 21 months, pass out of the insurance fund, and die, leaving his widow without the pension for which he had contributed during the whole of his working life. I should be loth to believe that that is the intention of the Government. A provision which could have such harsh results should not remain in the measure.

The honorable member for Cook (Mr. Sheehan) last week cited census figures which showed that, in 1933, of the 1,478,040 male persons employed in industry in Australia, in the age group from 16. to 65 years, only 56,553 or 3.9 per cent., were from 60 to 64 years of age. Those figures show that not more than 4 per cent, of the persons who will contribute under this scheme for old-age pensions will ever draw them. This bill provides that for each of the three years before they qualify for the old-age pension under this measure, they must have contributed for 39 weeks, a total of 117 weeks. Of course, to qualify for the pension, they must also have contributed for a considerable period previously. The fact that only 3.9 per cent, of the males engaged in industry in Australia are . from 60 to 64 years of age, taken in conjunction with that provision of the bill, shows that the old-age pension provision is but an empty shell. The figures in respect of female workers are even more startling. The 1933 census showed that of the 527,440 employed females, only 6,036, or .87 per cent., were from 55 to 59 years of age. That lends force to my argument that, although workers, both male and female, will contribute for most of their working lives for the purpose of being able to draw an old-age pension at the ages of 65 and 60, respectively, virtually none of them will ever draw the pension. More prospect of deriving the benefits for which they have subscribed would be given to the workers, if the period of 21 months of unemployment were taken as a period in which contributions were deemed to have been made. I do not believe that the Government intends to exclude the persons to whom I have referred. If the clause is not amended in the direction suggested the only pensions that aged persons will drawwill be pensions under the existing Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act, if they can pass the means test. Having directed the attention of the committee to these facts. I now ask whether it is prepared to pass the clause as printed. With conditions as they are, comparatively few will participate in the old-age pensions benefit, and no stronger argument than that could be advanced in favour of the acceptance of the amendment moved by the honorable member for Hindmarsh.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- The proposal of the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) is for the extension of the period in which the insured person shall be in receipt of free insurance. Ear from being generous, this scheme is one of the greatest “sell-outs” that I have ever encountered. If the people had the opportunity to decide - whether or not they would voluntarily come within the provisions of it not one in 100 would do so. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) laid stress on .the generosity of clause 21, but it. will be found that this generosity, if there be any, is entirely contingent upon certain conditions. Persons so unfortunate as to need free insurance will not get it as a right without the possibility of any objection. Clause 2L (1) reads-

If an approved society is satisfied, or, in the event of a dispute, it is decided in the maimer provided by this act, that, at the expiration of a free insurance period, a person who is a member of that society was incapable of work by reason of sickness, the free insurance period shall continue until the thirtieth day of June, or the thirty-first day of December, whichever date next follows the day on which he ceased to be so incapable of work.

It will be seen that an insured person will not get the alleged privileges as a right, because it is implied that an approved society may object to an extension, and in the event of the society so objecting, some other authority will have to adjudicate. The Treasurer would have us believe that the procedure will be automatic and that when a certain period has been reached a contributor who is ill, will receive a continuation of free insurance; but nothing of the kind will happen. The privileges which the Treasurer says the bill provides will have to be fought for. Should the free period expire in mid-December and tho insured person be still incapable of work all the concession which he will receive will be an extension of a couple of weeks, or until the end of December. If that position should arise in the middle of June, an extension will be made only until the end of June. Where are all the great gifts which this measure is to bestow on those unfortunate people who have exhausted their rights to benefits? The consideration they receive depends upon the time of the year at which they require an extension. Subclause 2 provides*-

If at the date of the termination of a free insurance period the person having the benefit of that period is employed, his free insurance shall continue until the 30th day of June or thi- 31 st day of ‘December, whichever date next follows the date on which he ceases to he so employed.

Briefly stated, the greatest concession which any contributor can receive, in the way of a free insurance period, is an extension for twelve months; but if it happens that he should become entitled to consideration in the middle of June or in the middle of December, the free insurance period can be reduced to six and a half months. It is easy for the Trea- surer to cite the position of contributors who have just come into the scheme and who may receive benefits after six months if the circumstances warrant. That will be the position in respect of only a small proportion of contributors. Let us consider the position of a person who has been contributing from 1G to 59 years of age - a period of 43 years - possibly without drawing a penny in the shape of sick or medical benefits. He gets within striking distance of the old-age pension, but if he loses his employment through sickness or for other reasons, he forfeits his right to a pension because there is no provision in the bill to suspend further his contributions. The only way in which a person who has contributed to the scheme for. 43 years and who then loses his employment can benefit, is provided in clause 74, which stipulates that a contributor must have been continuously insured for not less than five years immediately preceding the date on which he became entitled to a pension. A contributor has to be employed between the ages of 60 and 65 to enable him to reinsure. In these circumstances there is, as was stated by the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin), a grave danger of a vast majority of those reaching the pensionable age, losing all their pension rights under the scheme. Of course, we realize that, those who do receive a pension will not be submitted to a “means” test, but, those over 60 years of age who have been unemployed or sick will have to rejoin the scheme before they can claim a pension under clause 74. The census figures for June 1933, which are applicable to-day, disclose that 1,478,000 male persons were engaged in industry in that year, and of that number only 56,000 were between the ages of 60 and 65. Had this scheme been in operation at that time, only 3.9 per cent, would have benefited under . it. Of the 527,000 females in industry during that year, only 6,136 were between the ages of 55 and 59, and even if concessions in the form of extended periods for suspended payments were given, only about 1 per cent, of the females would benefit. All the Opposition is asking is that if through sickness or any other misfortune a contributor is. unable to contribute further, his contributions shall he deemed to have been paid during the free insurance period. In view of the claims made by the Government as to the generous nature of this so-called national health and pensions scheme, it is surprising to find that it proposes to’ accept contributions from workers when it knows that they cannot receive any benefits in return. I trust that the committee will agree to postpone this clause so that it may be amended to provide additional security to those who are compelled to come under the scheme.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

– Many of the arguments advanced by honorable members opposite in connexion with the free insurance period have a. good deal to commend them. The arguments of the Opposition in regard to this clause have something to recommend thom, but they must be accepted with reservation. For instance, the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) contended that a person who had paid into the scheme for any period, however short, should be entitled to all its benefits. It must be remembered that this is an insurance scheme, and although it is subsidized from Consolidated Revenue, it is, in the main, like other insurance schemes, and must stand On its own feet. We know that benefits provided by friendly societies are paid for annually, and accrue annually. If the insured person does not need the benefit during the year, it lapses. It is recognized that he has received value for his contributions by being covered against sickness for the period he has been insured, and even though he makes no claim, it cannot be contended that he loses anything. In regard to the pensions scheme, however, there is n very strong argument in favour of safeguarding to the contributor the amount he has paid in. It is a recognized principle of life insurance that a person who has paid in several premiums, and then allows the premiums to lapse, becomes entitled to a paid-up policy to the value of the premiums paid. That, at any rate, is the practice of most of the mutual societies. (Quorum formed.’ It is regrettable that those honorable members who have argued on behalf of free insurance in certain circumstances should not be present now to hear the speeches of those who would, possibly, support the claims they have made. The contributions of insured persons to the old-age pensions scheme must be regarded as their savings, and if, because pf illness or unemployment they are unable to continue their payments, the contributions already made should bc safeguarded. Great Britain has had a national insurance scheme since .1911. and it has been continually amended in the light of experience. I quote the following extract from the Lancet, the British medical journal, to show what the British scheme provides for in this respect -

By the recently passed act of 1935. an important extension of benefits is made for insured persons in’ arrears on account of unemployment. “ On ceasing to be insurably employed nil insured persons arc to have a Free insurance period on an average of SI months. During this period insured persons are to be protected for all pensions purposes and entitled to all health insurance benefits - medical., sickness and disablement, maternity, and additional benefits. If at the end of the free period an insured person who has been continuously insured for ten years, up to the date when he ceased work, proves that throughout thu period he (or she) lias been unable to obtain insurable work, Ids insurance will lie extended so long as unemployment continues to be proved year by year . . .” 1 submit, therefore, that we should be guided by the experience of Great Britain over the last 25 years, and should endeavour to begin with this legislation where the Mother Country left off.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.- So far as this legislation is concerned, the Government apparently divides the community into two sections, first, the aristocracy of labour. constituted of those who receive over £365 a year, and, secondly, those who may be called the proletariat of labour, who are compelled to contribute compulsorily for their own insurance. The second section consists of employed persons earning under £365 a year and the unemployed. This clause affects the interests of those who through no fault of their own, become unemployed for a period, and thereby qualify for what is called free insurance. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has refused to accept any proposal to liberalize this clause for the reason, of course, that the whole solvency of this scheme depends, on the fact that the great majority of the contributors will be small wage-earners who will lose their benefits under it through becoming unemployed and, therefore, lose all the contributions paid in. The Government has promised to introduce an unemployment insurance measure. Apart from the fact that it will necessitate increase of the weekly contributions of employers and employees, such a scheme will tend to jeopardize this fund. Under this bill, no insured person is entitled to free insurance benefits until he has paid contributions for 104 weeks, and many persons after paying for slightly less than that period and then becoming unemployed will receive no benefit whatever. This may happen to the one individual constantly. In reply to the argument advanced by the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony), I point out that, in many respects, this scheme is worse than the British act. It is certainly very much worse than the scheme introduced into this Parliament in 1928 by a Government of the same political complexion as this Government, and it is vastly worse than that which the present Government of New Zealand proposes to establish. The reason why the Treasurer is not prepared to accept any improvements suggested by honorable members on this side is quite obvious. If it were not for the fact, as I have already pointed out, that many insured persons will pay into this fund and then being unable, because of lossof their employment, to continue their contributions, will consequently lose their rights to any benefits, this scheme would not be workable at all. The solvency of the scheme will depend on forfeiture of tens of thousands of pounds paid by such contributors. For that reason, every honorable member who honestly endeavours to represent, not merely his constituents, but the people of Australia as a whole, should oppose this measure in its entirety. The more this bill is considered clause by clause, the more I become convinced that it is totally opposed to the interests of the people as a whole. In respect of this particular clause, the Government, strangely enough, has not adopted its usual practice of making promises that, at some time in the far distant future, legislation will be introduced to implement improvements suggested by honorable members. It is prepared to oppose us altogether on this clause. We are not misled by the apparent sincerity of the rebel group of honorable members opposite, for we see how so easily they are satisfied by the Government’s promises. We draw consolation from the fact, however, that often out of evil cometh good. We, on this side do not ask for the votes of honorable members opposite who are putting up a pretence of opposing the Government; we want not their votes, but their

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

- (Mr. John Lawson) - Order! The honorable gentleman is not discussing the question before the Chair.

Mr BAKER:

– I shall be interested, but not nearly so interested as the public of Australia, in watching how honorable members on both sides vote on this and other clauses, and in comparing their votes with the speeches they have made on this measure. Of course, we are accustomed to hearing honorable members of the Government speak with their tongues in their cheeks. It is their usual practice to vote contrary to the opinions they have expressed. In fact, onecan safely forecast that they will invariably vote in contradiction of their speeches. They have adopted that attitude time and time again in the past, but I point out that public interest in previous legislation has not been nearly so great as has been manifested in respect of this measure. Many more people are interested pecuniarily, politically, and in other ways, in this measure, than in any previous legislation introduced in this chamber, but on this occasion they are interested not so much in the speeches of honorable members as in their votes on every clause. This bill is of the greatest importance, not only to the welfare of the Australian public, but also the political well-being of every honorable member. For that reason, I am hopeful that this legislation, although it represents a retrograde step -

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN I have already reminded the honorable gentleman that he must discuss the question before the Chair and I shall not repeat that reminder.

Mr BAKER:

– This clause represents one of the most reactionary features of a retrograde measure, but I hope that, guided by the voting on it, the people of Australia will be enabled, at the next general elections, to place a new government on the treasury bench. A member who outstandingly poses as a mighty rebel is the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane), who led his misled electors through this building, telling them the while how he would speak but certainly not how he would vote. We have no doubt how he will vote to-night. He will vote in accordance with the instructions of the Government. Obviously, the Government will not give way on the clause because to accept the amendment would be to upset the unfair basis of the bill. All we of the Opposition can do is to try to make a very bad bill a little bit better.

Question put -

That the clause be postponed (Mr. Makin’s amendment) .

The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr Prowse.)

AYES: 24

NOES: 32

Majority . . 8

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 22 agreed to.

Clause 23-

Where any person ceases to be insured he shall, if subsequently he becomes employed, be treated as if he had not previously been insured.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- I can foresee that this clause will affect quite a fair proportion of workers who follow more or less intermittent employment. According to the provisions of the bill, every person in employment will come within the scheme, and I can see that those in regular employment have a reasonable chance of securing the benefits provided; but there is another section of workers who will be less fortunately placed. They may remain in employment for 104 weeks, during which period they will pay two years’ contributions and thus be covered by the provisions of the clause. Later, they may cease to be employed and, if after a period, they come back into employment, they will’ be treated as new entrants. I can imagine a great number of employee contributors to this fund being thrown out of employment and after the period of free insurance ceasing to be entitled to the protection of the scheme until they are re-employed and once more contribute. A large number of them will have no hope whatever of enjoying its benefits. In his second-reading speech the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) said that the proposal would cover 1,850,000 employees who have a reasonable chance of permanent employment. He anticipates that those people will receive the full benefit of the measure. But there are others who will not participate in the benefits. The census figures show that in 1933 there were in full time employment only 1 , 447,000 wage-earners, representing 69 per cent. of the total wage-earners in the Commonwealth, and 170,997, or 8.1 per cent. in part time employment. Included in this number are relief workers and men engaged in sustenance work. It is true that since 1933 some of these people have been absorbed in industry, and at the moment are in regular employment, but a considerable number of workers will not come under the scheme because of the intermittent nature of their employment. I had thought that this national health insurance scheme would make provision for those who need it most. The Treasurer reminded me of a very good insurance agent. The purpose of everything that he has said during the discussion in committee has been to emphasise only the best features of the bill. Always he has cited the cases most favorable to his scheme.

Mr Casey:

– No; average cases.

Mr BARNARD:

– The instances cited by the honorable gentleman do not represent more than 1 per cent, of the persons who will be covered by the scheme. He has told us that it will give greater benefits than are contained in the British Act, but even one of his own supporters, the honorable member for “Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) showed us that the Treasurer was not strictly accurate. During the depression -years thousands of employees who never anticipated being thrown out of work were dismissed from their employment, and I can envisage the time when there will be a considerable addition to our present numbers of unemployed because, as the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) has pointed out, recent advices from the International Labour Office indicate that every year a greater proportion of persons reaching the age of 45 years are losing their employment. This bill does not make adequate provision for persons who come into the scheme at an advanced age. I hope that the Treasurer will agree to liberalize the clause. I move -

That the clause be postponed.

If my amendment is carried it will be an instruction to the Government - to omit from the clause the words “ be treated as if lie had not been previously insured “ and insert in lieu thereof the words, *’ for all purposes be treated as if he had been previously continuously insured since he first entered insurance.”

If the clause is amended in this way it will give some protection to those workers whose employment is not continuous and who most need protection.

Mr CLARK:
Darling

Mr Beasley:

– And many who will be reluctantly absorbed.

Mr CASEY:

– In the early stages of this scheme many people will be contributionconscious, but that phase, will pass and they will become benefitconscious. Thus I concede the point made by the honorable member. The transitional provisions, clauses 86 and 87, are generously designed to enable persons of 60 years of age and over who- are within measurable distance of what is normally regarded as pensionable age to obtain the old-age pension easily. These are matters to which the Government has given special attention in order to get the scheme into operation. The provisions of the measure are generous in respect of the year 1939, and in respect of persons over 60 years of age and approaching pensionable age, and that generosity will be extended throughout the early stages of the scheme in order to enable those people to get their rights easily and effectively. The dire effects, which honorable members anticipate can wait a little for consideration. Let us first of all got some experience of the scheme. Except the two experts who came from overseas to help us with the scheme, the rest of us are simply feeling our way. I venture to suggest that within a year or two, not only I, but also the officers of the department to be established to control the scheme, will become very well versed in it, and actual experience will show how we can improve it. I assure honorable members opposite that honorable members on this side also are actuated by humanitarian motives in a matter of this kind. I ask honorable members not to press the amendment, because if we accepted it we would be taking a very dangerous leap in the dark. To use a popular expression, I ask them to “hold their horses” for a little while, and first of all concentrate on getting the scheme operating so that we may gain experience as early as possible. This is a democratic country and I do not think we can regard this measure as being in its final and cast-iron form.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Sitting suspended from 12.82 a.m. to 10.30 a.m.

Clause 24 - (1.) Where the Commission has issueda certificate under paragraph (&) of Part II. of the First Schedule certifying that, under the terms of any employment specified in that paragraph, persons engaged in that employment are entitled to benefits on the whole not less favorable than all the benefits provided under this Act, those persons shall not be insured under this Act in respect of that employment.

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

.- I move-

That after the word “not” the words “. while that certificate remains in force,” be inserted.

– The reason compelling us to refer to the second part of the first schedule is that the only cases of exemption with which this clause deals are exemptions provided in paragraph (6) of Part II. of the first schedule. It is probable that when we reach that stage in the discussion other cases of exemptions will be provided. I suggest, therefore, that we defer discussions of the principle of exemptions until we reach the second part of the , first schedule. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) should intimate now that if other cases of exemption are inserted in the relevant schedule, this clause, if it is passed, will be recommitted for further consideration. Other exemptions have been suggested already. For instance, the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) has given notice of an amendment to exempt employees of hospitals who, by the terms of their employment, are given treatment in hospitals. Other cases will, no doubt, be mentioned when we are dealing with that part of the schedule, so it is desirable that we should have an assurance that the clause, if passed, will be recommitted. We are now embarking on a discussion of what is, in substance, the second part of the first schedule. If we continue consideration of this clause and pass it, we shall in the discussion of the schedule have a repetition of the arguments. The

Treasurer should give us an assurance that if the classes of partially exempt persons are enlarged by amendments to the second part of the first schedule, he will have this clause recommitted.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– I appreciate the difficulty of the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) with regard to claims for exemption, and I understand how undesirable it is to establish a precedent which might seriously interfere with the scheme. I would, however, like him to give sympathetic consideration to a request for exemption from a very deserving and respectable section of the community -the Christian Scientists. Their request is based entirely on the ground of religious liberty, interference with which, as we know, is possibly one of the most prolific causes of trouble in the world. In conformity with their religious convictions the Christian Scientists have established a healing practice which they greatly value. They have their own practitioners who work along well-established lines in conformity with their religious concepts. They point out that the scheme will interfere with their liberty insofar as it will not give them complete freedom to observe their religious beliefs. Therefore they ask to be exempt, not from the whole incidence of the bill, but from that portion of it which requires them to make contributions for medical benefits. Their request is not unreasonable. If, however, the Treasurer feels that he cannot establish a precedent by granting exemption in full to this body, he might consider an appraisal of the services rendered by Christian Science practitioners to members of that religious body. He has precedent to guide him in the British Columbia Act which makes concessions in the direction indicatedand preserves to Christian Scientists their religious liberty. If the Treasurer feels that he cannot, without the risk of wrecking the bill, grant complete exemption to the Christian Science movement, I hope he will at least consider the desirability of relieving its members from contributions for medical benefits.

Mr MAHONEY:
Denison

– How will this clause affect the employees of the Electrolytic Zinc Company, who are already covered by a wellconsidered provident scheme? I understand that there are about 900 contributors to that scheme. Married men pay1s. 4d. a week for which they get full medical and. hospital benefits and, as sickness benefit, receive £2 5s. a week; single men get £15s. a week. They are already covered by a scheme that is more generous than the Government’s proposal, and they are wondering how they will fare when this scheme comes into operation because, as the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) has reminded me, they will then be called upon to pay double contributions if the Electrolytic Zinc Provident Fund continues to function. They are very much concerned about the future of their scheme and they are not at all pleased that under this proposal they will get reduced benefits. The Mount Lyall Company also has a more generous scheme. It provides for the treatment of members and their wives and families.

Sir Charles Marr:

– How many employees are in that scheme?

Mr MAHONEY:

– In Hobart I understand there are between 900 and 1,000. As their membership is less than 2,000, the provident fund cannot be declared an approved society. They are not satisfied with the statement of the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) that members of existing provident funds will not be adversely affected by this scheme. I understand also that the Bank of New South Wales has a much better scheme. If its employees are to be forced to contribute to this proposal, they will have to make double contributions, assuming the bank scheme is continued. The private scheme in Hobart to which I have referred has given great satisfaction to the employees. Under it, as much as £50 has been paid for a specialist to attend an employee who has suffered injury. What guarantee would such employees have under the Government scheme that their equity in the private provident funds would not be lost?

Mr PATERSON:
Gippsland

– I think the Government and the Parliament would be well advised to proceed with the utmost caution in making exemptions at the behest of privately established provident societies. The most important benefit under the Commonwealth Government’s scheme is the pension which a contributor will receive at the age of 65 years, regardless of a means test. Perhaps the second in importance is the widows’ pension, and next to the pensions I place the medical benefits. Most of the private provident funds have been developed on the basis of contributions by both employers and employees. The private banks, and some of the big private industrial enterprises, are so solidly financial that it would seem absurd to imagine that a time might come when they might be insolvent ; but the scheme under consideration by the committee would operate for many decades, and who can say what may be the position of the most powerful and solidly-based private enterprise 30, 40 or 50 years hence, when the young men who are now contributing to the private provident funds hope to receive a pension ? We should look ahead in matters of this kind, and be assured that bodies to whom exemptions are granted will be able to fulfil their obligations 00 years hence. It is very wise to provide that certificates of exemption may be withdrawn if, in the opinion of the proper authority of the day, these institutions are not financially sound enough to justify their exemption. I regard all these provisions as affording protection for the worker himself. It is in t’o interests of the employee that he should be protected, and we should do everything in our power to ensure that he will receive his superannuation when he reaches the age to enjoy it.

Mr POLLARD:
Ballarat

– I strongly support the request that some provision should bc made for the exemption of the section of the community which practises a form of religious faith in which it has its own medical practitioners, and does not resort to the services of registered doctors. No Parliament should pass legislation which would cause a religious body to violate the principles of its faith. Tho people I have particularly in mind arc the Christian Scientists. They are a fine body, and they have great religious fervour. A safeguard could be provided in the bill to prevent imposition by persons who do not hold their particular religious beliefs. The members of this section have no faith in the ability or skill of the registered doctors. Although personally I have the greatest faith in these doctors, I recognize the right of any religious body to its own views in regard to the art of healing.

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
Henty

– Under the British scheme, exemptions are generally refused. In Great Britain one government exercises legislative control over all companies and private undertakings, and it was able to come to an equitable arrangement, on a friendly basis, in regard to private provident schemes. In Australia, however, difficulty arises because of the fact that control of companies is a matter for the States. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) remarked that he is in touch with the State Governments, and I hope that he will succeed in securing their co-operation. Some of those governments, however, are extremely critical of this scheme of national insurance, and may not cooperate with the Commonwealth. In that case, the Government might even set up an organization on a voluntary basis to co-operate with each private undertaking that has a benefit scheme, thereby endeavouring to bring both the national and private schemes together under a workable arrangement. This cooperation is essential, and any additional benefits which employees now receive under private schemes should be preserved to them. These extra benefits are due largely to the generosity of some employers. I know of a case in which an employee with a splinter in his eye was conveyed 200 miles by motor car in order to be treated by a specialist. It would be regrettable if that spirit of generosity on the part of employers was to any degree dampened. I see one great difficulty in exempting Christian Scientists. Exemption could not be given to employees only, and how could exemption be granted to a Christian Scientist ‘ employer whose employees were not of the same faith? I fear that such an exemption would be fraught with many difficulties. I leave that problem, with my best wishes, to the Treasurer. I was interested to hear the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) and the honorable member for Denison (Mr. Mahoney) admit, tacitly, at least, the permanence of the banks in this country.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

– I should hesitate to press for the granting of exemptions. If a precedent were once established, it would be very difficult to administer a huge scheme such as that contemplated. In my opinion, the local provident funds should be adapted to the national scheme rather than that the opposite should be done. But I believe that a good case can be made out for those who will contribute for certain benefits with little possibility of receiving them. I refer particularly to medical benefits for hospital nurses. Most hospitals, being semi-voluntary or semi-public institutions, experience difficulty in obtaining sufficient funds to carry on. Generally, members of hospital boards give their services voluntarily for the benefit of the community, and any relief that can be given to them with equity should be given. Although hospitals will have to pay 4d. a week in respect of medical benefits for each nurse employed by them, there is no likelihood of such nurses requiring special services by doctors outside the hospitals ; they will continue to get medical attention and medicine free at the hospitals. The hospital authorities should not be expected to pay contributions in respect of medical benefits for their nurses. I do not press, as some hospitals have done, for an entire exemption from all contributions under the scheme, because those contributions are in respect of pensions as well as medical benefits, but I do submit that relief should be given in respect of the 4d. a week payable by them in respect of medical benefits. That relief should be given to them not only as a right but also as a recognition of the fact that the passing of this legislation will impose additional financial burdens on them.

Mr JOLLY:
Lilley

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

– Christian Scientists should be required to contribute towards pensions benefits, but I join with other honorable members in asking the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) to respect their religious principles by exempting them from the medical benefits section of tho bill. If that were done, it would meet the wishes of this sect. Its members are moved, not by a desire to avoid making contributions, but by their sincere religious beliefs.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.Several honorable members have referred to the position of Christian Scientists in relation to this scheme. I, too, have been approached by their representative with suggestions that they should be exempt from- contributing for medical benefits. T believe that everybody has a right to his own religious belief, and nothing should be forced upon them which is contrary to those beliefs. I have been shown documents indicating that in other parts of the world, in Canada, for instance, where national health insurance schemes are in force, Christian Scientists are exempt from contributing to medical benefits. I have no doubt that the experts who have drawn this hill have access to copies of the legislation in force in other countries, and they could, without difficulty, insert a provision excluding Christian Scientists as is desired.

Reference has been made to the position of contributors who are of an age when they are likely to come upon the fund for benefits at an early date. I am not sure that, under the scheme as it now stands, their interests are properly safeguarded..

Mr Casey:

– That position is covered in later clauses.

Mr BARNARD:

– In regard to representations that have been put forward for tho exclusion from the scheme of employees of firms that have their own provident schemes, I agree very largely with what- was said by the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) and the honorable member for Flinders (Mr.

Fairbairn). It would, I think, be dangerous to provide total exemption in such cases, but some provision should be made to prevent private provident schemes of a satisfactory kind from being altogether destroyed. I have inmind the firm of Paton andBaldwin, which employs over 1,000 persons, about 700 of whom will be affected by this scheme. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) will have difficulty in convincing these people that they will be satisfactorily provided for under the national scheme, which does not give any sickness benefits until after seven days, and then only £1 a week, while, under their own scheme, a married man draws £2 5s. a week from the day he falls sick’. It should be possible to safeguard such schemes without imposing undue hardship on either employees or employers. Other firms in myelectorate have provident funds also, but what I have said in regard to the firm of Paton and Baldwin applies very largely to them, also. An endeavour should be made so to amend the scheme that employees may continue to obtain the additional benefit under their own schemes, while, at the same time, obtaining whatever benefits are provided under the national scheme.

Mr SPENDER:
Warringah

– I think that the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) was right when he said that this clause should be considered in conjunction with the first schedule. I urge upon the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) that this is the logical course to pursue, and I ask him to postpone consideration of the clause at this stage.

Inmy second-reading speech, I made two points; one had reference to employees of banks that have their own provident schemes, and the other to the position of Christian Scientists under this scheme. I agree that there is no reason, in general, why any firm or organization should be excluded from the provisions of the bill. The cogent reasons advanced by the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) show the unwisdom of such a course. However, we should consider whether an organization which seeks exemption is one with complete permanency and financial stability, and I believe that the banks satisfy both those requirements. That being so, there is every reason why they should be exempt. They are able to look after themselves, and there is no need to extend the scheme to them. This is a matter which might be considered in conjunctionwith factors arising under the first schedule of the bill.

As for the claims of Christian Scientists for exemption, it is true that they represent a small section of the community; and while I do not happen to belong to their faith, I believe that it is a cardinal principle that where legislation impinges on the religious convictions of any section of the people, care should be taken to respect those convictions unless there are urgent reasons why they should be overridden. Several honorable members have spoken on this matter, and I hope that their protestations in favour of the Christian Scientists will be supported in a practical way. It is quite possible that a member may get up in this chamber and say that he hopes this or that section of the people will be exempted, hoping that the test will never he made by having the matter put to a vote; but, in order that this position may be clarified, I propose to move the following amendment : -

That the following sub-clause be added: - (7) The Commission may issue a certificate in the prescribed form to a contributor who makes an application for exemption and establishes to the satisfaction of the Commission that he is a bona fide adherent to and member of a duly constituted Branch of the Christian Science Church or Society and thereupon during the currency of the said certificate the provisions of this Act relating to medical benefit shall not apply to such contributor and the amount of contribution payable by such contributor shall be reduced by such amount as the Commission shall from time to time determine.

Provided that such certificate may at any time be cancelled by the Commission if the Commission is satisfied that the holder thereof is not such an adherent to and member of such Church or Society and shall be so cancelled at the request of the holder thereof.

– Nothing happens; she 13 an employed person. Another question that has been raised is: What happens, when a man moves from an area in which there are facilities for providing benefits to an area where there are neither doctorsnor chemists? An extreme example is that’ of a man who moves from a metropolitan area to the centre of Australia..

The Government has attempted in clause 100 to meet that situation.

Some honorable members have referred to Christian Scientists. I have been in touch with one gentleman who is prominent in the Christian Science Church. He has been to Canberra and we have discussed the matter thoroughly together. Also, I have had quite a large correspondence with other persons interested. The argument has been advanced that a scheme in British Columbia exempts Christian Scientists. That scheme, however, has no relationship with the scheme provided for in the bill, because it is confined to medical service, and no cash benefits are given, and no. grant is provided by the Government. I believe it is a compulsory scheme but Christian Scientists are exempted. In our proposed scheme a contributor, for a payment of1s. 6d. a week, receives a very wide range of medical and cash benefits. The cash benefits cover periods when he is sick, a pension for his wife if she becomes a widow, an old-age pension, and allowances in respect of dependants. I am advised that the Christian Scientists are not solely, or indeed at all, troubled by the few pence a week that cover doctors’ attention and supply of medicine. The1s. 6d. a week paid by the individual employee is nothing like sufficient to cover the wide range of benefits provided, and only a few pence, 21/2d. a week or so, is relevant to doctors’ services and supply of medicine. The Christian Scientist could quite well regard the payment as covering something towards his own pension, something towards the possibility of his wife having to claim a widow’s pension, something towards dependant allowances, and something towards even sick pay,

Mr Sheehan:

– Would sick pay be paid without a doctor’s certificate?

Mr CASEY:

– No, but my argument applies even if Ave leave sick pay out.

Mr.Curtin. - Then you must leave disablement benefits out also.

Sir Henry Gullett:

– And invalid pensions.

Mr CASEY:

– The payment of1s. 6d. is not anything like sufficient to cover merely old-age pensions, widows’ pensions, and dependants’ allowances. Many Christian Scientists have written to me stating that they are completely satisfied with the arguments I have placed before them.

I ask the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) not to press his suggested amendment. In this country there are many Friends, or Quakers,who pay taxes, some part ofwhich is utilized for the supply of munitions and other defence measures as well as hospital maintenance. Taxes are also paid by Christian Scientists and part at least of the proceeds is used for the maintenance of services for the rest of the community. There has been some misconception in the minds of Christian Scientists as to what will happen when this scheme is in operation. Some of them have been under the impression that in time of sickness they would be compelled to enlist the services of a doctor. I have had statements to this effect in letters which I have received from them, but my replies have satisfied them on the point. If we establish the precedent of granting exemptions in the way now indicated we shall be starting on a rather dangerous and slippery path. I should say that the conscience of Christian Scientists can quite well be satisfied by the fact that a contribution of1s. 6d. a week is something that is less than is sufficient to provide old-age and widows’ pensions, or pensions for dependants, and that the health benefits might well be considered as coming out of Government funds. I have written anything from 50 to 100 letters in reply to requests from Christian Scientists for information, and every reply that I have received from them has indicated that they are quite satisfied.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

- (Mr. John Lawson). - The honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) has given notice of an amendment. If he wishes to proceed with it, I ask him now formally to move it.

Mr SPENDER:
Warringah

– As requested by the Chairman, I move -

That the following sub-clause be added: - “ 7. The commission may issue a certificate in the prescribed form to a contributor who makes an application for exemption and establishes to the satisfaction of the commission that he is a bona fide adherent to and member of a duly constituted branch of the Christian Science Church or Society; and thereupon, during the currency of the said certificate the provisions of this act relating to medical benefit shall not apply to such contributor, and the amount of contribution payable by such contributor shall be reduced by such amount as the commission shall from time to time determine. “Provided that such certificate may at any time be cancelled by the commission if the commission is satisfied that the holder thereof is not such an adherent to and member of such church or society, and shall be so cancelled at the request of the holder thereof.”

Mr Holt:

– On a point of order, I submit that the amendment is not in order, because it gives power to the commission to reduce the amount of contributions which shall be payable from time to time by the members of the church or society referred to. Although, in all likelihood, the commission would not exact contributions which would be inadequate to meet the commitments in respect of such persons there is no guarantee, as far as the Government is concerned, that that would be the case. It is theoretically possible for the commission to fix rates of contribution which would be inadequate to meet the benefits which would have to be provided for these contributors, in which case the Government would have to provide a sum in excess of the amount contemplated in the appropriation message.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.It appears to me that the amendment may affect the appropriation, but I should like to hear the Treasurer on the point.

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

– Since you have been good enough, Mr. Chairman, to ask for my opinion, I must say that I do not believe that this amendment would increase the appropriation because, as I understand the position, the medical services would not be availed of by members of the Christian Science Church, and the contribution would be reduced accordingly.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.In view of the Treasurer’s statement that the amount of the appropriation would not be increased, I rule that the amendment is in order.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

– I support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) and endorse his remarks. If it can be shown, and I think it can, that members of the Christian Science Church are conscientious objectors to the scheme, they should be excluded from the scope of the bill. This issue touches a fundamental principle - the liberty of the individual. The only objection I have to the amendment, if I have any at all, is that it confines the exemption to a particular group of people. There may be others, I could name one myself - the Plymouth Brethren. I do not know if they have made a request for exemption. I have a great regard for the religious beliefs of people and for the maintenance of individual liberty. No person should be forced to swallow his convictions.

Mr Harrison:

– The -Plymouth Brethren have not asked for exemption.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I do not know. I merely cited that body as one which might -have asked for exemption. As an industrial officer 1 have on many occasions urged that members of the Plymouth Brethren order should not be compelled to pay union dues or contributions to factory benefit funds because it is an article of their religious belief that they must take no thought for tomorrow. Members of this order do not belong to any society or organization which compels its members to have regard for the future. I do know that the Christian Scientists have made a request for exemption. The -head-quarters of this organization is at St. Kilda-road, Melbourne, which happens to be in my electorate, and I have read the Christian Science Monitor for the last twenty years, so I have a thorough understanding of the guiding principles of the movement. Their request for exemption does not mean that they want to be relieved of monetary contributions. It is based purely on the ground of religious liberty. As employers, they always obey the law, and in this case will allow their employees to be covered by the Government scheme, but they do not want to be compelled to come under the scheme. Although I may not profess a particular religious belief myself, I respect the beliefs of others, and 1 would not force anybody to do something to which he conscientiously objected. The Christian Scientists are highly respected citizens of Australia. The majority of them are pretty wealthy. My contention is that if they have a conscientious objection to coming under the scheme their objection ought to be respected, and the request granted.

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
Henty

– The adoption of the amendment to exempt from the scheme the Christian Science Church would establish a dangerous precedent with respect to taxation generally. We could only justify this exemption on the ground that the tax was a specific one. If it were a general tax; if the purpose of the tax were not specific, as is the case with most forms of taxation, I am sure that, as a lawyer, the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) would not have submitted it. Taxes imposed for health services of various kinds, which include medical treatment, must be quite as odious to Christian Scientists as the specific contribution contemplated under this legislation. A new ordinance was promulgated this morning requiring all workers in the Federal Capital Territory to pay a special tax for the maintenance of the Canberra Hospital. Should Christian Scientists be exempt from that payment?

Mr Archie Cameron:

– There are some Christian Scientists here, too.

Sir HENRY GULLETT:

– Should they be exempt from taxes imposed for the purpose of providing, sewerage and other services which ensure public health? The carrying of this amendment would lead to all sorts of demands and endless complications. I cannot see why a conscientious objection based on religious beliefs should make a stronger appeal to a legislature than one based on high moral grounds, or any other sound ground. If the object of the measure is the welfare of the overwhelming majority of the people, I should say that an objection would not be any stronger because it was based on religious convictions. The Christian Scientists are a well-to-do congregation, and, probably, the majority of them employ domestic servants. Under this bill they would be compelled to contribute to the insurance of their employees for medical benefits, and that would bc just as much against their conscience as to contribute for medical benefits for - themselves. I hope that the amendment will not bo agreed to, because it would lead to many inconsistencies, and would open the door to many applications for exemption.

Mr GREEN:
Kalgoorlie

– I am in agreement with the honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett). The validity of conscientious objections depends on whether the liberties of others are interfered with. The Christian Scientists, no doubt, expect their children to be healed by faith and prayer, but the children may not follow so closely in the footsteps of their parents as to embrace their religion. Cases are on record where persons have died because of their refusal to call in a doctor. Certain members of the community do not eat animal food but confine themselves to cereals and fruit. Labour organizations have taken exception to the fact that certain manufacturers of the special foods used by this section employed members of the congregation in their factories, and did not pay wages as high as other workers in the industry received. There is a law against a man taking his own life, and that amounts to interference with the conscientious objector who desires to end his life. The Latter-Day Saints sincerely believed in the plurality of wives. This was a cardinal feature of their primitive religion. But the Government of the United States of America declared that as the law of that country allowed a man to have only one wife, even the Mormons must observe that law. Troops were employed to compel the Mormons to haul down their own flag of the State of Deseret, and hoist the Stars and Stripes. We should not cater for cranks who might unintentionally endanger the lives of others as well as of themselves.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Flinders

– I oppose the amendment, and protest against its form. With other honorable members, I was profoundly impressed by the remark of the honorable and learned member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) that he would never be guilty of inconsistency, for which ideal honorable members on all sides will, I am sure, applaud him. Yet, within the short space of half an hour, he has been guilty of the most flagrant inconsistency, by asking for an exemption of the Christian Scientists whilst not suggesting similar exemption for the followers of Father Divine. It would not be difficult to form an organization of young people who do not conscientiously believe in health insurance until their health begins to fail. If we allowed exemptions at all, they would probably have permanent operation, otherwise there would be an inconsistency. A young man aged sixteen years might enter the scheme, and pay the usual contributions until he reached the pensionable age, whilst another youth might enjoy exemption for ten or fifteen years, and, after making far fewer contributions to the fund, eventually become eligible for the pension. At the inception of the scheme it is necessary to bring in men aged 60 years and over, butafter it has been in operation for some time, features that are necessarily inequitable at the outset will disappear. Those who obtained exemption would always have to be exempt.

Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.- The honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) has moved an amendment to exempt persons holding certain religious beliefs. I agree with the principle underlying the amendment because the wider the exemptions, the fewer the persons who will suffer from the enactment of this legislation. All persons in the community who have conscientious objections to the passing of this measure should be exempted from its’ provisions. That would be a proper test of the Government’s claim that the people of Australia desire this scheme. I firmly believe that if conscientious objectors were granted exemption, the great mass of the people would claim to be excluded from the provisions of this bill. Australia is proud of the religious freedom allowed to its people; that freedom has been given statutory confirmation in the Constitution of the Commonwealth. Australia has no established church; people of all religious beliefs are entitled to the fullest expression of their beliefs. But while I have considerable sympathy with the purpose of the amendment, it is only reasonable that, if exemption is to be granted to one section, the amendment should be widened to include members of other churches who have similar objections to this legislation. I have no intimate knowledge of the religious beliefs held by Christian Scientists, and while I hold that the members of all religious denominations should be free to express their beliefs, I do not go so far as to say that they should be entitled to break the laws of the land with impunity. The criminal code of Queensland, and possibly of the other States also, throws upon the guardian the responsibility for caring for a person who, by reason of ill-health or old age, is unable to care for himself. Although I believe in religious freedom, I am aware that one of the first actions of a civilizing nation, when brought into contact with native races, is to break down some of the religious beliefs of its people. That applies, particularly, to the offering of human sacrifices, but in other respects also native peoples are required to comply with the laws of civilization. I do not suggest that the widening of the exemptions should go beyond reasonable limits; nevertheless there are good reasons why favorable consideration should be given to the amendment. The latest census returns .divide the religious beliefs of the people of Australia into 42 sections. The first church mentioned is the Australian Church. I notice that the Australian membership of the Christian Science church is less than 5,000; the list also includes Buddhists, Mohammedans, Shintoists, and many others. Although the number of Christian Scientists in Aust tralia is small, that fact should not be used as an argument against the amendment. Unfortunately, issues are frequently determined by the number of votes affected. If preference is to be given, it would appear reasonable to give it to those sects whose adherents are few. It is easy to fight on the side of the big battalions, but not so easy to stand up for a minority.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– Does the honorable member believe that the principle of granting exemptions on religious grounds is sound?

Mr BAKER:

– I have just said that it is so sound that it ought to be extended to cover all persons who have conscientious objections to this bill. Although the census returns enumerate 42 different religious beliefs, I was amazed to find one important omission from the list. No mention is made there of a church founded by an ex-Minister of this Parliament, who was responsible for some of the most monumental legislation on the Statute Book. I refer to” the Church of the Purple Water Lily of the Rockbound Lake of the Golden Mountain of the Cayuse nation. The argument has been advanced - I think wrongly - that, under the amendment, a Christian Scientist em ployer would not be called upon to make contributions in respect of his employees, and that, therefore, members holding other religious beliefs would be given preference. In reply to that contention, I point out that the bill specifically provides that although employees over 65 years of age are not required to pay contributions, their employers must continue to make contributions on their behalf. Another clause which provides for certain exemptions in respect of contributions by employees also stipulates that employers must continue to make contributions. The reason is obvious; in the absence of such a provision, exempted sections of the community would receive preference in employment over others. Therefore, that argument against the amendment falls to the ground. I am glad that it is suggested that special provision will be contained in the bill to cover blind persons, for no section of the community is more deserving.

This clause deals mainly with two classes of contributors who seek exemption. The first section includes persons in private employment. The granting of exemptions to them will be most difficult, but I realize that in legislation of this nature, it is difficult to avoid anomalies. I am, however, more concerned with the second section, which consists of employees of governments. There are in Queensland about 9,000 persons who are members of the Queensland State Service Union, the Queensland Professional Officers Association, and the Queensland Teachers Union. Those unions contain all the employees of the State government, with the exception of those in the railway and police departments, and they come under one scheme of public service superannuation. These people are concerned as to the effect of this legislation on them. Under the schedule they will be exempt, but as we have not yet reached the schedule I agree with the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) that this clause should be postponed until the schedule has been dealt with. Under the schedule, the commission is empowered to exempt government employees in respect of whom the commission certifies that the terms of employment” provide benefits corresponding to, and on the whole not less favorable than, certain classes of benefits provided by this legislation. I should like to know the effect of that provision on those government employees who will not receive benefits equal to those set out in this bill. It would appear that such employees will have to pay to the State governments the contributions that they now make, and also their contributions to this scheme, because it will be held that the Commonwealth scheme will provide greater benefits than they are now entitled to. The Queensland teachers wish to know the effect of this scheme on their superannuation fund. They point out that under the national scheme a pension of £1 a week will be obtainable for contributions lower than under their existing scheme. According to a recent issue of a Brisbane newspaper, members of the Public Service in that State suggest that the State Government should subsidize its fund by an amount equal to that which would be received under this scheme had there been no superannuation fund in existence in Queensland.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I am against the amendment moved by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender), but that does not mean that I am any less appreciative of the appeal that has been made on behalf of the folk mentioned in the amendment, or that I have received fewer letters requesting support for the amendment, than have some other honorable members of this Parliament. The reason I am against it is that I am all for the widening of this reputedly national scheme of insurance. One is surprised to hear honorable gentlemen opposite who, for a week, have been pleading for the extension of the privileges and advantages of this scheme, talk to-day about restricting it to certain sections. One can understand the view of the adherents to the Christian Science faith, who feel that they are to be asked to pay for something which their faith does not permit them to enjoy. That is not unique in any civilized community. Hardly a tax that is imposed does not have the effect of making some persons pay for something that they do not want. No one would suggest that, the adherents of the

Christian Science Church, and of Father Divine, should be exempted from the payments of municipal rates, which are very largely expended in the promotion of public health. Honorable members who declare that members of the Christian Science Church should be exempted because they consult their own practitioners who are not medical practitioners as defined in this bill, overlook the fact that more than 400,000 members of friendly societies, who are now enjoying all the advantages which this bill contemplates, are to be forced to become contributors to the national insurance fund. We do not ask them if they want to come in. Though they may have conscientious objections to entering the scheme, because they- will be compelled to pay considerably more for fewer advantages than they now receive, they have not the option of remaining outside it. I intend to endeavour to prevent the clause relating to members of friendly societies from being agreed to in its present form.

I wish that this scheme were more of a community scheme than “it is. I am sorry that the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has not been able to concede the request made by some honorable members for the inclusion of public servants.

Mr Casey:

– I hope that that will come.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– I am glad to hear that. I hope so, too.

The Treasurer advanced a sound argument when he said that the allocation to the pension fund would be ls. 9d. per capita a week, supplemented by many millions of pounds of State money, whereas the individual would pay only ls. 6d. a week towards the pension benefit. I hope that honorable members will hesitate before they do anything to make this measure any less comprehensive than it is at present.

Mr FROST:
Franklin

.- The longer that this bill is before the committee, the worse it seems to be. I understood the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) to say to-day that people in the outback areas who cannot get medical attention, will not have to contribute for medical benefits.

Mr Casey:

I do not agree with the proposal that certain employers should be exempt from tho provisions of this scheme, because they contribute to provident funds for their employees. We know that some limited liability companies, which employ big staffs, subscribe to schemes for the provision of medical benefits for their employees. I hope that this National Parliament will not tolerate the exemption of such firms, because it is a fact that some of them use their provident schemes as an aid to strike-breaking, and to brow beat their employees. It is a favorite practice of these firms to hold over the heads of their employees the threat that if they strike they will lose all right to benefit under the provident schemes into which they have been paying. This is one of the methods by which they seek to destroy the independence of their employees, and if this national insurance scheme has any virtue at all, it is that it will tend to put a stop to this kind of intimidation. I do not wish to be misunderstood in regard to this matter. I am not, and never have been, an advocate of wholesale industrial disturbance, but I do maintain that the workers can never surrender the right to strike, when the reason is sufficiently grave, and when no other remedy is available. If we exempt employers from the obligation to contribute to this scheme, we shall, in effect, be subsidizing a system for the browbeating of the workers, and the promotion of scabbery. I hope that the committee will have nothing to do with the proposal.

Mr JENNINGS:
Watson

– I believe that there is a good deal of misunderstanding regarding the position of Christian Scientists under this scheme.

Like other honorable members, I have received communications from Christian Scientists, and, in addition, I have been in conversation with several of them. They are a most law-abiding section of the community, and I can understand and sympathize with their religious objections. It would appear that there is a general desire among Christian Scientists to be excluded from the obligations of this clause. During the luncheon adjournment, I was in touch with a staunch Christian Scientist in Sydney, who assured me that there was no general desire among them to be excluded, and he could see no reason why this should, be so. The following extract from a letter indicates clearly the misunderstanding that exists in the minds of many Christian Scientists in regard to the Government’s proposal -

The main point, so far as students of Christian Science are concerned, is that it is not so much a question of paying the contribution as that we do not wish to bc compelled to call in a doctor in case of need, but feel that we should be free to choose our own method of treatment.

And thereupon during the currency of the said certificate the provisions of this act relating to medical benefit shall not apply to such contributor and the amount of contribution payable by such contributor shall be reduced by such amount as the commission shall from time to time determine.

Could anything be more absurd than to ask the commission to determine to what extent these pence shall be reduced by reference to> the fact that, to some extent, they ‘represent somebody’s conscientious objection? The commission has to examine the conscientious objection to decide how much in pence - in farthings, fractions, and decimals - shall bo allowed for it. It is enough to make Sir Archdale Parkhill turn in his political grave. The amendment further says -

Provided that such certificate may at any time be cancelled by the commission if the commission is satisfied that the holder thereof is not such an adherent to and member of such church or society and shall be so cancelled at the request of the holder thereof.

The inquisition has to determine precisely at what point the conscientious objector has fallen away from his adherence to this notable cult. That opens up a vista of great possibilities. The Australian inquisition, sitting on this nice question of whether an individual is a good Christian Scientist, would have a pretty difficult task. If the principle were extended, the result would be very interesting. . We could open an inquiry, demand for which often suggests itself, into the private lives of members of Parliament. The inquisition might determine whether certain honorable gentlemen are good members of the Anglican Church or good members of the Woman Catholic Church, or are merely professing members of those bodies. If they are good members, the question would remain to be decided, how good? How often do they go to church on Sundays? What is the, measure of their subscriptions when the plate comes round? To what extent are they responsible for those tokens that are not proper currency, but are often found on the plate? All these questions have to be determined by this new inquisition, set up in this new country, which is supposed to regard all religions as matters entirely of conscience and opinion on the basis of perfect equality. Those matters in the past have not been permitted to influence the tax-gatherer when he comes round with his forceps with the intention of extracting an unwilling contribution from the taxpayer.

Mr STREET:
Corangamite

– The honorable member for Bat man (Mr. Brennan) seems to be breaking away from the understanding that generally exists between members of the legal profession on on both sides of the House. First of all, he said he proposed to- vote for the proposed new sub-clause moved by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender), and then he took it word by word, comma by comma, and pulled it to pieces. He said, in effect, “ This is a particularly stupid amendment. Although it i3 badly drafted, and although I think it will be difficult to worK, if I can by so doing spite the Government, I shall vote for it.”

Mr Brennan:

– I contend that the argument of honorable members on the

Government side is that the object to be gained is good.

Mr STREET:

– I oppose the amendment, and on the general question of exemptions I agree with what was said by the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) earlier in the debate. He made a valuable contribution to the discussion of thi3 question. The amendment seeks to exempt a certain section of the community on the ground of religious belief. To the general principle of recognizing religious beliefs in this matter, one should pay some attention, but if Ave follow the idea of exempting particular sections of the community to its logical conclusion we arrive at some extraordinary results. What about the man who conscientiously objects to marriage? Ought the commission to exempt him from payment of contributions for widows’ pensions ? If the principle of the amendment be granted an examination will Show conclusively that it is not only unworkable, but also undesirable. I do not like exemptions in this form of legislation. In common with other members I have received letters from employees of a particular bank which has a provident fund. They ask that subscribers to the scheme should be exempt. I do not agree that they should be exempt. Provident schemes now in existence should be dovetailed into the national scheme, and every worker should be brought under the provisions of the bill, provided he can comply Avith the income limitation. I hope that the Government will not accept the amendment, and on the question of exemptions generally, I trust that great care will be exercised, in granting them.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
Wide Bay

– I have a lot of sympathy for the amendment, and I know that the persons who have made the representations to individual members are very earnest in their appeal, and are firm in their convictions. By opposing the second reading I supported the idea that everyone should be exempted from the bill, but when we are considering conscientious objectors alone, we must have regard to the consequences. This debate ought to impress on the Minister the necessity for giving some consideration to these people, and I hope that in the Senate, if not in this House, provision will be made so that the 2d. paid by Christian Scientists will go to further their own objective. I see the possibility of the Christian Science Church becoming an approved society, with the further possibility, in that event, of a great many more adherents being attracted to the church, merely to secure the exemption. There is also the possibility that some of the new adherents might not be so sincere in their beliefs and thus their admission to the church might do it some harm in the eyes of the community generally. I do not believe in the sentiments expressed by the honorable member for Batman (Mr* Brennan). I have received letters from very many Christian Scientists who express their concern at the prospect of their being brought under the scheme, and cite some extraordinary instances of healing by faith. I am well aware that honorable members generally are inclined to give serious consideration to the request that these people be exempt. Whilst I cannot see how it is possible to grant wholesale exemptions, I hope that the Treasurer will be able to suggest some means whereby the Christion Science Church may be registered as an approved society to administer the benefits of this measure to its members in accordance with its own tenets.

Mr LANE:
Barton

.- I gather from some of the letters which I have received from Christian Scientists that they are under some misapprehension as to the effect of this national insurance scheme on their organization. Their chief ob jection to the scheme, I understand, is the possibility of their being compelled, in the event of illness, to obtain the services of a doctor. Everyone knows that no such compulsion would be exercised in respect of anybody, although there is some obligation to seek medical aid in a critical illness. The Government would be wise to resist this claim for exemption. I favour the scheme because it includes, among others, bank officials who may be regarded as the best class of risk, and because the purpose of the scheme is to provide a wide range of social benefits for the poorer people. At the end of the five year period, the surpluses in the funds of the approved societies will be distributed in the prescribed manner in order to equalize the benefits given under the scheme. There could be conscientious objections from nearly every section of the people in respect of almost any legislation that is introduced. If this scheme is to fulfil its purpose and serve all sections of the community, the Government should not grant exemption to one section and thereby invite further requests for exemption.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- The amendment is more important than it would appear to be on the surface. Every member of the committee is agreed that national insurance should go much further than this measure takes it.

Mr Lazzarini:

– The honorable member did not vote for the scheme to go further.

Mr ANTHONY:

– It is possible that further measures will be introduced in this Parliament or the state parliaments and if exemption is now granted to the Christian Science Church on religious grounds, requests may be expected from other groups in the community when the later legislation is being considered. I sympathize with the objections of Christian Scientists from whom, in common with other members, I have received a large number of letters; but I would remind the committee, and particularly honorable members representing Queensland, that in that State a hospital tax is levied by the municipal and shire councils. If the Christian Science Church were exempted from this bill and the precedent established, the same arguments for exemption could be advanced against contributions for hospitalization, on the ground that members of that body would not use the hospitals.

Mr Beasley:

– In Canberra the workers will have to pay a hospital tax and make contributions also to this fund.

Mr ANTHONY:

– My remarks would apply equally to the attitude of Christian . Scientists in Canberra to the hospital tax. The fact that some concession has been given to Christian Scientists in the British Columbia Act is no reason why that body should be exempted from this scheme, because here we are tackling a much bigger problem. The contribution of 2½d. a week which the Christian Scientists will be called upon to pay in respect of medical benefit will not mean interference with their religious liberty. They will still be entitled to call in their own practitioners, the only difference being that they will contribute to a scheme from which they will not expect to receive direct benefit.

Mr JENNINGS:
Watson

.- The honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) has suggested the possibility of members of the Christian Science Church being appointed an approved society under this scheme. The proposal, I think, is one which might well receive serious consideration as a solution of the difficulty that has arisen in connexion with this request for exemption.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.- I support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) because I respect the conscientious objections of any section of the community. Honorable members may recall that the former member for Riverina (Mr. Killen) was a sincere believer in the efficacy of the Christian Science religion. He claimed that his faith had cured him from a very serious illness. Some years ago when I was also suffering from a severe illness, I had a long conversation with him; he was trying to rope me. Whilst I re- spected his point of view, I preferred to be treated by my own doctor. Any person who tries to belittle the religious beliefs of other people has very little else to do. The health insurance scheme of the province of British Columbia, passed in 1936, exempts the Christian Science Church from contributing to the scheme. The following is the relevant section -

Where an employee otherwise within the scope of this section makes application for exemption in the manner prescribed by the regulations and establishes to the satisfaction of the commission that he is an adherent or member in good standing of the Christian Science Church, the commission shall grant to him a certificate of exemption from the provisions of this act; but subject to the regulations, such certificate may be cancelled at the request of the employee or on the employee ceasing to bc an adherent or member of that church.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

.- The honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) courteously showed me a draft of his amendment. He has done well in a. very difficult task, but the difficulties are not so great as they have been represented to be. A member of the Christian Science Church is a person who has set his hand to a definite statement of beliefs which is set out in the Christian Science Manual. There is no difficulty in ascertaining whether a person who claims exemption as a Christian Scientist is a member of the Christian Science Church. Some people are in the penumbra of Christian Science - those who are influenced by the views of that body, but are not actually adherents of the church. These would not be entitled, under the amendment, to exemption. Only those who had subscribed their nam’es to the essential tenets of Christian Science, as set out in the Manual, could become exempt. While their subscription to those tenets continued they would be entitled to have their claims considered by the commission. Apart from religious considerations, nobody would gain anything by belonging to the Christian Science body, or any other minority church. It is hardly to be believed that .any person would go through the empty form of subscribing to the tenets, and undertaking the obligations of membership, of that church to save himself the payment of 2d. a week. The honorable member for Warringah has suggested a means whereby the commission could examine the various claims of applicants for exemption. The bulk of .the members of this congregation is not composed of working people; if they are working people, they would probably be of one of the classes exempt from compulsory insurance.

Misapprehension has arisen concerning the obligations imposed by this measure. Probably the Christian Scientists thought that the bill would place upon them obligations which it will not impose. For instance, I dare say they thought that it would compel them to submit to medical treatment. That would be an outrage; no such proposal is made in the bill. As the measure stands, it provides that they shall be compelled to contribute towards the cost of medical treatment which they do not want, and which they believe it would be wrong for them to accept. The Christian Scientist believes that evil does not exist; that it is an illusion. He believes that an attempt to cure physical ills by medicine or medical treatment is wrong, because those ills do not exist. The congregations of Christian Scientists have their own practitioners who cure the body and the mind by dispelling the illusions of the mind. It is well known that cures have been effected by Christian

Science teachers, and cures have been experienced by persons who have become adherents of the church. The wrong that the bill proposes to inflict is that of forcing Christian Scientists to pay for the use by themselves of a system which they believe it would be wrong for them to use. 1 can quite understand them having a conscientious objection to that, and I believe that their views in that regard should be respected by this committee. I believe that the honorable member for Warringah has given us a method by which conscientious objectors could be protected.

This is not a question of whether a tax should or should not be imposed. In the case of a tax, whether a general impost or a tax for a specific purpose, one pays for benefits, not only for oneself, but also for tho community. In this instance we are told that the contributor would be paying for benefits for himself, and that the payments would be subsidized, so that he would get more than he had paid for. The Christian Scientist says that he does not object to paying for benefits for other people, but he objects to being told that it is proper for him to accept medical benefits. Take the point raised by the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony), regarding a hospital tax. A Christian Scientist could not validly object to that, because he knows that there are persons outside his congregation who do not believe that evil is a delusion. The Christian ‘Scientist would say that there should be medical treatment and hospital treatment for those persons who believe in it, because they could not be treated by Christian Science methods. lt would be improper and anti-social for him to object to contributions for that purpose. Every Christian Scientist I have met says that persons who do not accept the general principles of Christian Science tenets cannot be effectively treated by Christian Science methods. The only persons who can be so treated are those who have accepted Christian Science principles. Many of the Illuminati have become Christian Science practitioners; they tender spiritual advice to the members of their congregation, but only to persons who have accepted Christian Science teaching. No Christian Scientist would dare to treat a person who did not understand the beliefs of that body, and had not subscribed to its tenets.

Now I come to general taxation, of which several honorable members have spoken. We cannot take the income tax, and dissect it by saying, “I pay so many pence for this, and so much for that “. We cannot cut up a tax. If schools were . maintained by a municipality which imposed a special rate for .education, and said, “We shall apply that tax to the maintenance of schools in which there shall be no religious instruction at all I could conceive of members of that community, who believed in religious instruction in schools, objecting to contributing to tho cost of that kind pf education’ by means of a special tax. They would have every right to object, aud their position would be analogous to that of the Christian Scientists in regard to this bill. I hope that the committee will respect the objections of Christian Scientists to this measure. Although we may not be able to understand and appraise their- belief, it is something of weight and substance to them. The conscientious objections of even the smallest section of the community should be respected.’

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.- At the present time, the members of the Queensland Public Service are divided amongst the Professional Officers Association: and the Queensland State Service Union. In addition, there is the Queensland Teachers Union. The total number of employees is approximately 9,000, and they all contribute to the Queensland Public Service Superannuation Fund. They are compelled to contribute to it, and it appears that the benefits which they receive under the State scheme are equal to those that would be obtained under the proposed legislation. They are not particularly anxious to be brought within the scope of this bill; in some respects their present scheme is preferred by them. Whilst they desire to be exempt from this bill, they point out that the State Government, as an employer, would be paying less towards the cost of their superannuation than would the Commonwealth Government under this bill. The Commonwealth Government will not pay one penny towards the benefits which they will receive. State public servants in Queensland contribute towards a superannuation scheme which provides for males an incapacity allowance of £50 per annum for each unit, an annuity of a similar amount on retirement, and an assurance benefit of £200 for each unit at age 65, or at death, according to the choice of the insured. As the contribution of each male is based on a minimum of 2 units of incapacity allowance, 2 units of annuity, and 2 units of assurance, it follows that under the State scheme he contributes for an incapacity allowance of £100 per annum, an annuity of similar value, and an assurance benefit of £400. Approximately . 18,000 railway employees in Queensland will not come under this bill, because the State superannuation scheme does not include them. I should like to know their position. Members of the police force of Queensland have a scheme with which they are generally satisfied, but the members of the public service are compelled to join a superannuation scheme towards which the Government pays only a negligible amount. In one year public servants in Queensland contributed £61 12s. for every £1 of Government subsidy. For the three years ended the 31st December, 1935, public servants in that State contributed almost £58 for every £1 of Government subsidy, the respective figures being £283,777 18s. 3d. and £4,910 9s. 8d. The cost of valuation and management, which is approximately £2,000 a year, is met by the Government, but even if that amount be added to the Government subsidy, the total cost to the Government over a threeyear period would be only about £11,000, compared with £283,777 18s. 3d. paid by contributors. My point is. that, under this legislation, the State Government will continue to contribute only a small proportion of the total amount, whilst there will be no contribution at all from the Commonwealth Government if these public servants are exempted, as is suggested. It is not that they object to being exempted ; but if they are exempted, arrangements should be. made for substantial subsidies to be provided. The provisions in respect of females in the employ of the Queensland Government differ slightly from those applicable to males, but no variation of principle is concerned. If the scheme to be launched by the Commonwealth Government is not to cover State employees, and if such schemes as the Queensland Public Service Superannuation scheme are to be approved schemes, running parallel with the Commonwealth scheme and exempted from direct contribution to it, public servants and teachers in that State who contribute to the State scheme will, unless the contributions made by the employer be greatly increased, be at a disadvantage compared with railway employees, who at present have no superannuation scheme. Of the benefit received by contributors under .the Commonwealth Public Service Superannuation fund and under the schemes in operation in New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia, about 50 per cent, arises from their own contributions, and a similar proportion from contributions made by the Government as employer.. As there are no public service superannuation schemes in operation in Western Australia and Tasmania, public servants in those States are not so vitally interested in this scheme as are the public servants of Queensland. For the reasons which I have given, I ask that the claims of those 9,000 public servants be favorably considered.

The Federal Executive of the Australian Journalists Association has asked that members of the association be exempted from the provisions of this bill. They point out that as all journalists, including cadets receiving less than £365 a year, have every prospect of receiving more than that amount through their industrial awards, they should be exempted. I ask that favorable consideration be given to their claim also.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- Exemption from the provisions of this bill should be made in respect of employees in hospitals who are entitled to receive free medical service. At a later stage I propose to move an amendment to safeguard their privileges, but I mention this matter now so that honorable members may keep it in mind when the second schedule is under consideration.

Question put -

That the sub-clause proposed to be added (Mr. Spender’s amendment) be so added.

The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 26

NOES: 29

Majority . . . . 3

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 2049

PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE

Canberra Community Hospital

Mr. FRANCIS brought up the report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works together with Minutes of Evidence relating to the proposed construction of a new building for the Canberra Community Hospital.

Ordered to be printed.

page 2049

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Seat of Government Acceptance Act and Seat of Government (Administration) Act - Ordinances of 1938 -

No. 20 - Canberra Community Hospital.

No. 21 - City Area Leases.

No. 22 - Hospital Tax.

page 2049

ADJOURNMENT

Adelaide Telegraph Branch - Prices- of Foodstuffs - Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms: Staff - Dairying Industry - Ballarat Aerial Pageant - Commonwealth Employees : Disablement Allowance

Motion (by Mr. Casey) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- I take this opportunity to bring before the Government a matter which is based on a question that I asked during the week as to the intention of the PostmasterGeneral (Senator A. J. McLachlan) to dispense with one of the two assistant superintendents in the telegraph section of the Adelaide General Post Office. If, in the interests of economy, I should say, unwise economy, the second assistant superintendent is dispensed with, the efficient working of the branch may be impaired. For a great many years there have been two assistant superintendents in the Adelaide telegraph office which, for reasons that I shall advance, is a pivotal part of the Australian telegraphic system. If, for instance, the telegraph circuit between Perth and Kalgoorlie were to break down, the service would be conducted from Perth to Kalgoorlie via Adelaide. Similarly if there were a breakdown between Sydney and Broken Hill, telegraph communication between the two centres would be carried on through Adelaide. It may be contended that, as the Perth telegraph office, which does a little more business than is done by the Adelaide office, is carried on with the services of only one assistant superintendent, there should be no need for the services of two assistant superintendents in Adelaide, but I point out that the difference of the times at which work is done in both offices makes it easier to manage the Perth office than the Adelaide office. The analogy, therefore, is false.

An attempt was made five years ago to conduct the Adelaide telegraph office with only one superintendent, but, after a trial period, during which efficiency suffered, the second assistant superintendent was reinstated. I impress upon the. Treasurer (Mr. Casey) the fact that if efficiency was impaired five years ago because tho department tried to carry on the Adelaide telegraph branch with only one assistant superintendent it must equally be impaired in the same circumstances in the future. To dispense with the services of one of the officers will mean that between 12.30 a.m. and S a.m. the branch will he under the direction of a person known as a supervisor, who will receive no extra remuneration for the added duties and responsibility that will be placed on him. The unfairness of that must be apparent to all honorable members who are aware of the fact that between those hours some of the most important work that the telegraph office undertakes is done.

Mr Curtin:

– With the test matches about to start, it is imperative that the telegraph service be efficient.

Mr MAKIN:

– Yes. The telegraph system will be used not only to convey information relative to the test matches, but also for other important business. I could give a lengthy description of the work done by the assistant superintendent and by the telegraph branch itself, but the department is just as aware of the need for the services of the second man as I am. It is merely seeking to effect an economy by placing the responsibility on a supervisor without extra reward. That is fair neither to the person who has the right to occupy the position of assistant superintendent, or to those persons who, for a less wage, will be required to carry out the supervision.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

– I desire to bring before the House a matter which, while it may not appear to be one of great urgency, is, nevertheless, of considerable importance. It has to do with the general subject of food prices in the Commonwealth of Australia, and, in particular, with the recent increase of the price of a number of primary foodstuffs especially. This increase, and the public reaction, on the part of both the consumer and the producer, have once again drawn attention to the highly unsatisfactory method that we now have of arranging either for increases or decreases of the prices of primary foodstuffs, adequate quantities of which are essential to the well-being, not only of the individual person, but also of the community as a whole. I wish it to be clear that the suggestions that I shall make will be made in no sense of hostility to any section of the community or to the primary producer. I have always supported any proposal in this House for orderly marketing, and for example, those methods, such as the sugar agreement, of ensuring that the primary producers shall reap a fair and reasonable return for their labour and capital outlay. In this country we lag behind some other countries in the degree of control or supervision which exists in respect of the regulation of the. cost of primary foodstuffs. What I suggest to the House, and, in particular, to the Acting Minister for Commerce (Mr. Archie Cameron) is an examination of the question as to whether we can profitably set up in Australia a body similar to the Food Council of Great Britain. The Food Council was established following upon the recommendations of the Geddes Commission - a royal commission on food prices whose report was published in 1925. The report made by that council to the President of the Board of Trade for 19-36 stated-

The Food Council was originally appointed by the Prime Minister in July, 1925, with the following terms of reference: “To investigate and from time to time report to tho President of the Board of Trade on such questions as by reason of complaints from persons interested or otherwise appear to the council to require investigation in the interests of consumers or traders, or are referred to them by the President of the Board of Trade relating to the supply or price of articles of food of general consumption, and in particular the following: - Wheat, flour, bread, meat, bacon and ham, milk, butter, cheese, eggs, fish, fruit and vegetables, sugar, tea.”

Tho only addition I would suggest to those terms of reference is the insertion of the word “ producers “ after the word “ consumers “. The producers are also entitled to refer to such a body any complaint they may have that they are not receiving a satisfactory return. In Great Britain, that body functions as an advisory body in respect of retail and wholesale commodity prices. It is made up from those consumers’ committees which have been set up under the provisions of the Agricultural Marketing Act of 1931. These committees are appointed by the Minister, and from them he personnel of the council is chosen. The sphere of activities of the council vs somewhat wider than that of the consumers’ committees themselves.

That there is need for some such supervision in this country is indicated by the substantial rise of the cost of living that has taken place within the last twelve months. I have seen figures which indicate that this increase of the cost of living is approximately 5s. a week for a family of five. The latest figures issued by the Commonwealth Statistician reveal the following increases of the prices of essential commodities : -

Beef, 2$d. per lb.

Mutton and lamb, lid. per lb.

Milk, Jd. a quart.

Butter, 2.3ad. per lb.

Eggs, a decrease of 3d. a dozen but, since April, an increase of 3d. a dozen.

In regard to vegetables, the increase of prices compared with this time last year lias been so rapid, because of the dry season^ that it is almost impossible to make a comparison. I am not suggesting that the increases of the prices of the other commodities are unreasonable or altogether unjustified, but I may claim that they have increased the cost of living by 5s. a week, estimated on the following estimates of the requirements of a family of five: -

Milk, 3-Jd. (seven quarts).

Butter, 7 id. (3 lb.).

Meat, 2s. (12 lb.).

Vegetables, ls. Od.

Eggs, 3d. (one dozen).

Such increases have a direct effect, not only on consumers and producers, but also on industry generally, because wage rates are affected by the cost of living. At the present time, whenever an increase is announced by the producer, there is almost invariably an immediate protest from the various consumers’ organizations, based, usually, not upon any detailed inquiry as to whether it is justified or not, but simply as a matter of course on the ground that there has been an increase. Then there follows the usual bickering in the press between the organizations of the producers and the consumers, and the general public can get no satisfaction whatever.

A body such as that which I have suggested would be able to investigate price increases as does the council in Great Britain, and could make recommendations which, while having no binding effect, would have a definite moral effect. It would also make a pronouncement regarding the reasons for any increase which took place. At the present time there is every reason to believe that, not only is the producer not getting a reasonable price, but also the cost to the ultimate consumer is unreasonably high. The gap between the return to the producers and the cost to the consumers, represented by the middleman’s costs, seems to be out of all proportion’ to any service rendered. Perhaps a body such as I propose would be able to make recommendations that would have the effect of reducing these intermediate costs. In Great Britain, the council does not act merely as a consumers’ organization. As honorable members will see, from a study of the council’s reports, the council has often pointed out to consumers how increases have been justified. In other cases, .it has been able to show that, while increases were justified in some localities, they were not justified in others. The result is that the public is much more likely to be satisfied that whatever charges are being made are reasonable. The matter is one of great importance. We have appointed a Nutrition Council, which has issued reports suggesting that some sections of the community are not getting enough of essential foods, and we should do whatever is necessary to make it easier for them to obtain adequate supplies of nutritious food. Therefore, with a view to remedying a state of affairs which is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction at the present time, the Minister should give consideration to the suggestion I have made.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

– I desire to bring under your notice, Mr. Speaker, the treatment of temporary waiters employed in the refreshment rooms at Parliament House. This may not appear to be a matter of great importance with which to take up the time of a national Parliament, but it links up with the system of unemployment relief in the Federal Capital Territory. During the parliamentary recess these men, about eight in number, are either unemployed, except periodically, or are employed upon what, in the Territory, takes the place of relief work. In the latter case they receive the usual rates of wages, but have no guarantee of continuity of employment. When Parliament is in session, they are called upon to act as waiters. There is a suggestion now that, at the end of this financial year, the relief work upon which they are usually engaged during recess will not be continued, and they will then be subject to the system whereby single men in the Territory receive one week’s work in four, and married men one week’s work in three. While they are employed on relief work, they receive £4 12s. 6d. a week, but when they are employed as waiters they receive only £4 8s. 6d. a week, though it usually happens that, with overtime, they make up the difference. I suggest. that they should be permanently employed. They are efficient and capable, and it is unreasonable that they should be compelled during recess to go on to any kind of relief work that may be offering. If they are made permanent employees it will be to the benefit of Parliament as much as to the men themselves.

I also wish to raise a matter arising out of the last all-night sitting of the House. I do not wish to put ideas into the heads of Ministers in this regard. I understand that after a certain number of hours of work, certain employees in the House are paid overtime. On the last occasion they were paid for working all night, and after having their breakfast they went on with their work as if for a new day ; they did not receive payment at the rate of time-and-a-half for that day, as they should have done. That is unfair to men who are called upon to work for. such long hours.

An appointment was recently made to the position of second-in-charge of the parliamentary refreshment-rooms. This also may be considered a matter not of sufficient importance to bring before the national Parliament, but it is concerned with the basis of Public Service appointments. The principle observed therein is supposedly efficiency first and seniority next. The understanding generally in the Service is that the man who is next in seniority, and has done the job, is, in the majority of cases, the most eligible. I have no objection to the man who has been appointed to the refreshment-rooms vacancy; possibly he may be the most efficient. I am pointing out, however, that an employee in the Service is entitled to hope that when his superior officer steps out he will receive promotion. That is a fundamental rule of the Public Services of the Commonwealth and the States, and it is only departed from when another man has greatly superior efficiency. Appointments in contravention of this rule prevent men underneath from moving up. I suggest that in the making of all appointments, unless a very good reason “for doing otherwise is put forward, the next man in seniority should be appointed.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. J. Bell).Perhaps it would be as well if I replied at once to the remarks of the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Baker) regarding employees of the House. His first request was that stewards temporarily employed during the sittings of .the ‘Houseshould be still employed when the House is in recess.

Mr Baker:

– I meant outside the House.

Mr SPEAKER:

– If that is so, it is a matter that I cannot deal with. . I know of no work they could do in this building when the House is in recess.

Regarding the appointment in the refreshment-rooms, I assure the honorable member that the President and I went, into the matter very thoroughly. The qualifications of applicants were fully considered. The complaint that a man who has been employed in the refreshmentrooms should have been appointed, is answered by the fact that he was not considered to be qualified for the work. The contention that because the appointment was given to someone not already employed the opportunity of promotion for others would be restricted, is wrong. Applications have to be invited in accordance with the law governing the filling of a vacancy; therefore the men already employed must take their chance with the others. Obviously they would be given some preference, but, as far as I am concerned, efficiency is the first consideration. The appointment was given to the applicant who was considered to be best fitted for the job.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

.- It is my duty, as representative of a large number of dairy farmers, to make some observations on the subject referred to by the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) in advocating the appointment of a food council. He stated his case in a temperate and reasonable way, as he always doe3. I have never heard him express any views derogatory of Aus-i tralian industries. He takes a liberal view of this question. I am particularly anxious, that facts on the other side should also be made public. I rather fear that outside the House someone may get the idea that dairy farmers are doing something unreasonable, and extracting an undue toll from the people of Australia. The honorable member stated his case most temperately, I want to state my case equally temperately, and equally without bitterness, regarding those who are not playing the game aright. Outside this House there are persons and organizations that are hungering for publicity, and are prepared whenever any industry is subjected to extreme conditions which are breaking it down economically, torush into public print immediately in order to decry that industry, of which they usually know next to nothing. I want to speak on the present occasion in support of the dairy-producing industry, which has been suffering from extreme drought conditions for some time. Those engaged in it have had heartbreaking experiences. The quantity of the cream produced has been growing less, and its quality poorer, and stock have been getting weaker. That has been going on for at least two years. During all that period they have not, in spite of overwhelming justification, raised their prices. The price of butter has remained static. Certain women’s associations, without investigating the facts, rush into print with their propaganda. They have no thought for the dairy farmer’s wife who works 365 days a year, spring, summer, autumn and winter, and

Sundays and holidays included. Not a word is said on behalf of the women who are helping their husbands in remote parts of Australia to eke out a minimum pittance while they see their best stock deteriorate and die because of the drought. The president of the women’s organization who is protesting should be required to spend five years on a dairy farm. I have no doubt where her sympathies would be then. It is my duty to-day to raise a protest, and to ask the people of Australia to look on the other side of the question, and ignore the statements of a few publicity hunters in the capital cities. Many dairy farmers have had their dairy herds seriously depleted, in some instances to half their previous strength. They have not been able to raise their young stock, and they will be in Queer-street for a very long while. I ask the House and people outside the House, when examining the case, to be fair and reasonable, and not to make an unfair attack on the struggling dairy farmers who are deserving of every sympathy and good-will in the difficult conditions they have passed through in recent years. If the prices of dairy products in Australia are compared with prices of similar products in other parts of the world, it will be found that consumers in Australia have been supplied with first-class goods at very reasonable prices over a long period of time. Those who have made the sacrifice to provide the Australian consuming public with first-class butter at a reasonable price, or below a reasonable price, are the dairy producers. I do not wish to reflect on the honorable member for Fawkner, but I make these remarks because I have read in the newspapers in recent weeks unreasonable attacks on the dairy producers. I have travelled through dairy districts quite a lot. The Christian fortitude with which the producers have borne all their troubles in the last two years is pathetic, and I resent any attack on them.

Mr POLLARD:
Ballarat

.- I join with the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) in his defence of the dairying producers. I belong to a milk producers’ association that produces milk and butter-fat for the Melbourne market. Not only is the position of the dairy farmers pathetic just now because of the exceptionally dry season, but also the position of their employees and members of their families is pathetic at any time. I make bold to say that if the Arbitration Court, or any other impartial tribunal, were authorized to take evidence on the subject on oath, it would find that even the most efficient dairy farmers in Australia, who have been engaged in the industry all their lives, who have efficient appliances and employ uptodate methods, do not receive enough for their produce.

Mr Holt:

– Then the honorable member should accept my suggestion.

Mr POLLARD:

– I am not suggesting that there is any ulterior motive behind the suggestion of the honorable member. There is never any outcry when prices are depressed, but only when they are increased, even though the increased prices do not recompense the producers for their losses. In these circumstances my protest is not so much against the attitude of honorable members as against the action of persons outside this Parliament who suggest that prices are charged that are not in accordance with the costs of production. It has always been my particular grievance that too little notice is taken of conditions of labour in rural employment. There is hardly one State where any protection is given to rural employees. Their condition is so desperate that the younger generation of farmers are becoming seised of the need for some reform, and are actually suggesting that something should be done to bring the conditions for their employees into line with industrial conditions in other avocations. The move has actually been initiated by the producers’ organizations. In the State of Victoria, a, committee of inquiry should investigate conditions of labour on dairy farms, and should cover not only the conditions of employees, but also the conditions of the wives of dairy farmers and of members of their families. There may be some excessive charge between the points of production and distribution, or the system of distribution may be inadequate to meet the needs of the people; but rural producers, particularly our dairy farmers and wheatgrowers, are not receiving anything like adequate recompense for the services which they render. I protest against the attitude taken up by a certain organization in an endeavour to demonstrate that the people of Australia are being exploited by the rural community.

Another matter to which I direct attention has to do with the Defence Department. ‘Some weeks ago the Ballarat Aero Club asked me to get in touch with the Minister for Defence and request him to arrange for some machines of the Australian Royal Air Force to visit Ballarat and give demonstration flights during the centenary air pageant to be staged in that city in August. The request was made some time before the 24th May, because I’ have had an acknowledgment under that date signed by the Minister, to the effect that the matter would receive attention. I arn, of course, aware that the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) is an extremely busy man, and may be unaware of the contents of the letter that bore his signature, so I do not hold him personally responsible for the matter of which’ complaint has been made. This aero club is doing very fine work by encouraging the citizens of Ballarat, particularly the youth, to become air-minded, which is important from the point of view of defence. That reply which the Ballarat committee received from the department stated that three Avro Anson bombers and three Hawker Demon machines would be allowed to proceed to Ballarat on a particular date to give demonstration flights, conditionally on the aero club paying £4 10s. for each flying hour in respect of the Avro Anson bombers and £3 5s. an hour in respect of the Hawker Demon machines. I should add that no charge was contemplated for the time occupied in travelling to and from Ballarat; but the demand that the’ Ballarat Aero Club, which is a comparatively young organization and is doing splendid work, should pay such rates is short-sighted ; it would mean a total charge of £23 5s. I hope that there has been some mistake, and that the Acting Minister for Commerce (Mr. Archie Cameron) will bring this matter to the notice of the Minister for Defence. I hope also that he will be able to tell me that there will be no charge for this proposed demonstration flight, because it will be carried out in the normal training period of air force pilots. I admit that in some circumstances it may be necessary to make a charge in order toprevent aero clubs or any other body from making frivolous requests for visits by defence aircraft, but as there are comparatively few aero clubs in Victoria - there is one at Ballarat, one at Bendigo, one at Geelong and I believe one or two others in country centres - requests for visits by defence aircraft are not likely to be frequent or expensive to the department. I hope that the Minister will reconsider the matter and let me have an answer at the earliest possible moment, because members of the Ballarat Aero Club are incensed at the proposed charge.

Mr GREEN:
Kalgoorlie

.- I desire to bring to the notice of the Acting Minister for Commerce (Mr. Archie Cameron) the unfair treatment that is being meted out to Commonwealth employees engaged on works in remote areas. I have in mind particularly the case of a man working at Rawlinna on the Transcontinental line. Some time ago he suffered an injury in the course of his employment, and he was th en in receipt of two-thirds of his wages plus 5s. for each child under the age of fourteen years, and a district allowance representing 12s. 3d. a week. I am also informed that his district allowance censed during the period of his illness.

Mr Makin:

– Even if he remains at Rawlinna?

Mr GREEN:

– Yes. Every one knows that the district allowance payable to Commonwealth servants is less than the amount necessary to meet the added cost of living in those areas ; it is particularly unfortunate that the allowance should be withheld from this man just at the time when he needs it most. If he were a Commonwealth employee living in. Canberra, or even near Melbourne, where there is no district allowance, and suffered injury in the course of his duty, he would be on the same footing as a man employed at Oodnadatta or some other remote place. That, of course, is absurd. I trust that the Acting Minister will make representations to the Acting Minister for Industry (Senator A. J.McLachlan) and have this matter put right in the interests of men who are employed in remote areas where the cost of living is much higher than in the more settled parts of the Commonwealth.

Mr THOMPSON:
Minister without portfolio, assisting the Treasurer · New EnglandAssistant Minister · CP

– I shall bring the matter mentioned by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Green) ‘ under the notice of the Minister for the Interior (Mr. McEwen), and I feel sure that a full inquiry will be made. The honorable member will be informed as soon as possible of the result.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BarkerActing Minister for Commerce · CP

– The matters mentioned by those honorable members who have spoken this afternoon will be attended to, and the result of inquiries will be communicated to them in due course.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

The House adjourned at 4.45 p.m.

page 2055

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answers to questions were circulated: -

Commonwealth Railways: Supply of Sleepers.

Mr McEwen:
CP

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows : -

Search for Oil

Mr Curtin:

n asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice -

How much has been expended by the Commonwealth Government in connexion with the boring and search for oil in Victoria during each of the last three financial years?
In what localities in Victoria was the money expended, and how much was expended in each locality?

Mr McEwen:
CP

– The answer to the honorable member’s questions is as follows : -

The Commonwealth has agreed to contribute £7,500 towards the cost of a Government scout drilling campaign for testing the Gippsland district for geological structure favorable to the occurrence of oil. The Victorian Government has provided a similar amount. A considerable portion of this joint fund remains unexpended, but it is anticipated that the boring programme decided on will take at least a further twelve months to complete.

The amount of £7,500 was made available to the Victorian Government as follows: -

1935-36, £1,500; 1936-37, £2,000; 1937-38,

£4,000. In addition the Commonwealth Government has made available for this joint campaign a new rotary drilling plant costing approximately £12,000. This plant will he available for work in other parts of Australia when the campaign in Gippsland is completed. It is anticipated that the full cost of this plant will be paid during the present financial year.

The following advances under the Petroleum Oil Search Acts 1936 have been approved to companies operating in Victoria: -

Lake Wellington Oil Co. No Liability. - Advance not exceeding £600 approved for drilling at Longford, Victoria. Instalment amounting to £314 paid during financial year 1937-38.

Austral Oil Drilling Syndicate No Liability. - Advance amounting to £404 16s. 4d. paid during financial year 1937-38 for testing of Midwest Bore, Lakes Entrance, Victoria.

Advance not exceeding £1,000 approved for drilling new test well Lakes Entrance, Victoria. No instalment of advance paid to date.

Commonwealth Departments : Transfer to Canbebra

Mr Barnard:

d asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice -

How many Commonwealth Departments are still awaiting transfer to Canberra?
Can he say when the Government contemplates establishing them in the Federal Capital ?
How many employees will be involved in the transfers?

Mr McEwen:
CP

– The information is being obtained.

Postal Department: Telephone and Telegraph Facilities

Mr Nock:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

k asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

What were the revenue conditions in 1929 necessary to secure in country telephone exchanges (a) continuous service; (b) 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. service; and (c) 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. service; and what are the present conditions ?
What were the conditions in 1929, and what are they at present, for country subscribers to secure private telephone connexion at a 10-mile radius from an exchange?
What were the relative conditions to secure a six-party line 10 miles from an exchange in 1929, and what are the conditions to-day ?
What were the total rates for threeminute talks by subscribers over 10, 30, 50, 75 and 100 miles radius trunk lines in 1929, and what are the rates to-day?
What are the country charges for three minutes’ conversation from a public telephone for 10 miles, and 15 miles, between 9 a.m. and6 p.m., and what are the charges for the same distances from Sydney General Post Office?
What is the total charge (disregarding rentals) for a three-minute local call on a country exchangeby a subscriber, and what is the total charge to a city subscriber for each call ?
Are the public telephone rates in the telephone book lists the actual rates charged to both public exchange callers and telephone subscribers? If the charges made are above the list rates, what is the reason for retainingmisleading printed rate lists in telephone books?
What would be the cost of supplying and fixing a coin attachment to a public telephone already installed in a country town ?
Will the installation of automatic exchanges in country allowance post offices affect the allowances paid to the officers in charge of such offices?
How many have been installed?
What would be the annual loss of revenue if a flat rate of1s. for sixteen-word telegrams were adopted in Australia, and there was no increase in the number of telegrams as a result?
What were the charges for State and interstate telegrams in 1899?
How many temporary linemen engaged on telegraph or telephone construction have been employed by the department for periods exceeding six years?

Mr Perkins:
UAP

– Inquiries are being made, and a reply will be furnished to the honorable member as early as possible.

Australian Broadcasting Commission: Fees Paid for Broadcasts -Use of Copyright Material,

Mr Mahoney:

y. asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the salaries of officers of the Postal Department and of all other persons in the Public Service, as well as fees to members of commissions, &c., are paid from revenue derived from the taxpayers, and are published periodically?
If so, what is the reason for so much secrecy regarding the fees paid to Count von Luckner and others who are performing for the Australian Broadcasting Commission, and the money for whose fees is also derived from the taxpayers?

Mr Perkins:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

It is probably a fact that all those who pay for services rendered to them by the staff of the Postal Department and other public service departments are taxpayers, but it has to be remembered that, apart from revenue which is contributed for the conduct of the nation’s business, parliamentary and otherwise, a specific service is rendered to the individual for the payment made, in precisely the same manner as would be the case were the officers referred to rendering those services through the medium of private enterprise.
The money for the payment of the services referred to is not gathered from the taxpayers as such, but represents a specific payment for something which the contributor desires to obtain. In connexion with the provision of its programmes, the Australian Broadcasting Commission enters into numerous contracts, but it is not customary for organizations engaging individuals for occasional and specific services to make known the rate of remuneration paid to them.

Mr Perkins:
UAP

s.- On the 26th May, 1938, the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) asked me a question relating to the amount of performing right fee to be paid by the Australian Broadcasting Commission for the use of certain copyright material in radio programmes. In reply thereto, I stated that I was prepared to submit the matter to the commission, but, in view of the answer already given, I expressed doubt as to whether the honorable member would receive a reply. I am now in a position to state that, as the arbitration proceedings between the Australasian Performing Right Association and the commission were conducted under and in pursuance of the Copyright Act, I referred the honorable member’s question to the Acting Attorney-General for consideration. The Acting Attorney-General pointed out that the consent of both parties would appear to be necessary before disclosure of the arbitrator’s award can be made. The parties are being asked whether they have any objection to the facts being supplied.

Wireless Broadcasting: Sunday Advertising

Mr Mahoney:

y asked the Ministerrepresenting the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Can he say whether the Sunday Observance Act of any State or any act of the Commonwealth makes any reference to advertisements being broadcast on Sundays by commercial broadcasting stations?

Mr Perkins:
UAP

– There is no such reference, so far as I am aware.

Civil Warin Spain : Commonwealth’s Contribution for therelief of Victims.

Mr Blackburn:

n asked the PrimeMinister, upon notice -

How much of the sum of £3,000 allocated for the relief of victims of the Spanish civil war has been paid?
To whom has it been paid?
Upon what terms and conditions is it. paid?

Mr Lyons:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

Five hundred pounds.
The International Red Cross Committee.
The sum referred to in the answer to No. 1 has been paid on the understanding that assistance willbe rendered impartially to any victims of the Spanish civil war.

Importation of Motor Vehicles and Accessories

Mr Green:

n asked the Acting- Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

What was the number and value of motor cycles imported into Australia of (a) English manufacture; (b) Canadian; (c) United States of America ; and ( d ) other foreign, during the years 1934-35, 1935-36 and 1936-37, respectively ?
What were the total number and value of motor cars and the total value of accessories, imported from Great Britain during those years?

Mr Perkins:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

– Imports of Motor Cycles, and Frames thereof, whether wholly or partly finished but excluding rubber tyres and tubes, were as follows : -

- (a) Imports of Motor Car Chassis from the United Kingdom were -

Motor Car Accessories are not recorded separately, but values of imports from the United Kingdom of parts and accessories principally associated with motor oars wore as follows : -

SenatorSirGeorgePearce: of Documents.

Mr Lyons:
UAP

s. - On Wednesday, the 8th

June, the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) asked me a question, without notice, regarding certain papers which, he said, had been removed from Parliament House by Senator the Right Honorable Sir George Pearce. I have now received from Senator Sir George Pearce a telegram in which he definitely denies the allegation contained in the honorable member’s question. The documents retained by him, he says, are his personal papers, and ho adds, that if there is any doubt as to this he would welcome an inspection by the AuditorGeneral, the Solicitor-General, or any other officer appointed by me.

Importationof Motor Boats.

Mr.Perkins. - On Wednesday, the 8th

June, the honorable member for Pre- mantle (Mr. Curtin) asked the following questions, upon notice: -

How many motor boats known as “ Criss Craft “ have been imported into Australia during the past twelve months?
How many motor boats of all descriptions have been imported?
What rate of duty was paid onsuch craft?
Is the present rate of duty sufficient to protect this industry in Australia?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : - 1 and 2. As importsof all types of motor boats, yachts and launches are statistically recorded under one heading, it is not known what proportion of total imports during the last twelve months, were of the “ Criss Craft “ type of motor boat. Imports of all types of yachts, launches and boats, including motor boats, imported into Australia during the year 1936-37, and for the firstten months of the present financial year were-

With the exception of those boats, yachts and launches which are -
1. re-imported into Australia;
2. imported for Commonwealth governmental purposes; or
3. the property of tourists and subsequently exported from the Commonwealth, the rates of duty payable on all boats yachts and launches imported during the year 1936-37, and for the ten months of the present financial year, were 25 per cent. under the British preferential tariff and 421/2 per cent. under the general tariff. In addition, primage duties of 5 per cent. British preferential tariff, and 10 per cent. general tariff were paid on those vessels which were less than 500 tons gross register.
I as not aware that the existing rates of duty do not accord sufficient protection to the Australian industry. If, however, the interests concerned state a case showing that the present protection is inadequate, the question of reference to the Tariff Board will receive consideration.

Duty on Oregon Timber.

Mr Perkins:
UAP

s. - On Tuesday, the 24th

May, the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Price) asked the following questions, upon notice -

Is it a fact that in the year 1914 the duty on oregon was fid. per 100 super. feet, and that by the year 1933, the duty had risen to 14s. per 100 super. feet, withan additional 10 per cent. primage and 6 per cent. sales tax?
What is the rate of duty, primage and sales tax to-day?
What is the amount of customs revenue, derived from oregon duties, &c. for the years 1933 to 1937 on (a) sawnoregon timber, and (b) log Oregon?
Is it a fact that in nearly all the States of the Commonwealth that Oregon is extensively used for roofing, heavy beams, shoring, gantry work, forming for concrete work, and scaffolding ?
Is it a fact that oregon plays an important part in the building operation in the

Commonwealth,even in the hardwoodproducing States of Tasmania and Western Australia?

Is it a fact that the present high duty on oregon has materially increased the building costs in Australia?
Is it a fact that the present high duty on oregon means an additional cost ona fiveroomed brickand stone house of approximately £l6?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

Yes, only as far as sizes of 12 inches by 18 inches (or its equivalent) and under 12 inches by 10 inches (or its equivalent) are concerned when entered under the general tariff.
The present rates of duty,primage and sales tax on oregon timber are as follow: -

The quantities of oregon timber imported and the total amount of customs revenue de rived from the duties thereon during the years 1933 to 1937 were as follow:-

No. Oregon timber is used extensively in some Statesbut, taking the Commonwealth as a whole, it is not used as extensively as local hardwoods for the purposes mentioned.
Oregon plays an important part in building operations in New South Wales and Victoria (mainly in the cities) and in South Australia. Such is not the case, however, in the Status of Queensland, Western Australia and Tasmania, where local timbers are almost wholly used in building operations.
The duty paid on oregon is naturally reflected in the price.
No.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 9 June 1938, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1938/19380609_reps_15_156/>.

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House of Representatives 9 June 1938

QUESTION

MOVEMENTS OF MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

Mr CURTIN:FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr LYONS:Prime Minister · WILMOT, TASMANIA · UAP

Mr CURTIN:

Mr LYONS:

QUESTION

HOME-CONSUMPTION PRICE FOR WHEAT

Mr PROWSE:FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP

Mr RANKIN:BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:CP

Mr LANE:BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr LYONS:UAP

QUESTION

OVERSEAS AIR-MAIL SERVICE

Mr PRICE:BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr LYONS:UAP

QUESTION

TRADE WITH JAPAN

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:CP

QUESTION

WIRELESS BROADCASTING

Mr FAIRBAIRN:FLINDERS, VICTORIA

Mr LYONS:UAP

QUESTION

INCOME TAXATION IN NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr BLAIN:NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr CASEY:Treasurer · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

QUESTION

CANBERRA COMMUNITY HOSPITAL

Mr BAKER:GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:CP

QUESTION

DAIRYING INDUSTRY

Sir HENRY GULLETT:HENTY, VICTORIA

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:CP

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

Mr WARD:EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF MOTOR CARS IN AUSTRALIA

Mr GREGORY:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr PERKINS:Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

QUESTION

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Mr COLLINS:HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:CP

QUESTION

EXCISE DUTY ON PETROL

Mr HAWKER:WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr PERKINS:UAP

QUESTION

CUT-GLASS INDUSTRY

Mr ROSEVEAR:DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr PERKINS:UAP

Mr ROSEVEAR:

Mr PERKINS:UAP

PAPERS

NAURU

Mr LYONS:UAP

QUESTION

NORTHERN. TERRITORY LAND BOARD

Mr BLAIN:

Mr McEWEN:Minister for the Interior · INDI, VICTORIA · CP

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY MINING

Mr BLAIN:

Mr McEWEN:CP

NATIONAL HEALTH AND PENSIONS INSURANCE BILL 1938

Mr CASEY:Treasurer · Corio · UAP

Mr JAMES:Hunter

Mr JAMES:

The CHAIRMAN:

Mr JAMES:

The CHAIRMAN:

Mr JAMES:

The CHAIRMAN:

Mr JAMES:

House of Representatives
9 June 1938

Mr CURTIN:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr LYONS:
Prime Minister · WILMOT, TASMANIA · UAP

Mr PROWSE:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP

Mr RANKIN:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

Mr LANE:
BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr LYONS:
UAP

Mr PRICE:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr LYONS:
UAP

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA

Mr LYONS:
UAP

Mr BLAIN:
NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

Mr BAKER:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
HENTY, VICTORIA

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

Mr WARD:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr GREGORY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr PERKINS:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr COLLINS:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
CP

Mr HAWKER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr PERKINS:
UAP

Mr ROSEVEAR:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr PERKINS:
UAP

Mr PERKINS:
UAP

Mr LYONS:
UAP

Mr McEWEN:
Minister for the Interior · INDI, VICTORIA · CP

Mr McEWEN:
CP

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

Mr LANE:
Barton

Mr CURTIN:
Fremantle

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
Henty

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · Corio · UAP

Mr JENNINGS:
Watson

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

Mr FADDEN:
Darling Downs

Mr CLARK:
Darling

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

Mr PRICE:
Boothby

Mr CASEY:
Treasurer · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP