House of Representatives
28 June 1937

14th Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr.spearker (Hon.G. J. Bell) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 489

QUESTION

STATEMENT BY HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr FORDE:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– Has the attention of the Acting Prime Minister been drawn to the report in the Sunday Sun, Sydney, of yesterday, that a speech was made at Clifton College by the Australian High Commissioner, the Right Honorable S. M. Bruce, in which the. following statement is reported to have been made : -

We are stillthe saltof the earth, whatever anybody says.

Everywhere I go people seize on the fact that I have been a Cambridge rowing blue, which is the biggest distinction in my life, and gives me more satisfaction than the Australian Prime Ministership.

Does the Acting Prime Minister endorse the statement of the Australian High Commissioner to the outside world, that he preferred an English sporting success to becoming first citizen of his own country? If not, will the right honorable gentleman assure the world that the Prime Ministership of the Commonwealth is more important than being a Cambridge blue ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Minister for Commerce · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– I think it is the universal belief that the High Commissioner’s representation of Australiain England has been commented on admiringly by every section of the community.

page 489

QUESTION

ALIEN MIGRANTS

Mr FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– I draw the attention of the Minister for the Interior to a paragraph which appears in this morning’s press, headed “ Alien Migrants “ ; “ Mr.Forgan Smith’s Objections “ ; “ Interview at Adelaide “, It reads -

The Premier of Queensland (Mr.Forgan Smith), who reached Outer Harbour from London in the Orama on Saturday, said that he would discuss with the Commonwealth Government the question of limiting the number of Southern Europeans coming to Australia. He said that these migrants were permitted to land in various States without any reference by the Commonwealth to the wishes of the States concerned, and frequently became charges on the State.

Certain foreigners, Mr. Forgan Smith said, were given advantages denied to British-bom subjects. Italians appeared to bc able to nominate friends and relatives in Italy as migrants, but tins concession to .British subjects was withdrawn in 1029.

Will the honorable gentleman investigate both of those statements, and subsequently make to this House a full statement in reply to them?

Mr PATERSON:
Minister for the Interior · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · CP

– I shall be very pleased to make a full statement on this matter. The statements to which the honorable member lias directed attention are almost entirely erroneous.

Mr BAKER:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND

– Has the Minister for the Interior seen the report which, appears in this morning’s press, to the effect that “last Tuesday 100 Southern Europeans arrived at Fremantle on the Orama and last Saturday 320 Southern Europeans on the Italian steamer Esquilino, as migrants to Australia? Does the honorable gentleman say that th.ese statements are erroneous; and, if they are not, will he cease blaming the governments of the States for the existing scandalous state of affairs and see that action is taken to prevent its continuance?

Mr PATERSON:

– I have not at any time -blamed the governments of the States in connexion with this matter. I have already indicated that I propose to make a full statement on the whole matter very shortly.

Mr PATERSON:
Minister for the Interior · Gippsland · CP

by leave - The honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) has directed my attention to u press statement in which the Premier of Queensland, Mr. Forgan Smith, is reported to have said that the most serious aspect of foreign migration to Australia was the fact that certain foreign nationals were being given advantages not granted to British subjects, in that Italians appeared able to nominate their friends for settlement in Australia, whereas that privilege had been denied to British subjects since 1929. Such statements are misleading. I have pointed out on several occasions recently that since the depression all alien migrants must obtain permission to enter Australia. The nomination of alien migrants by relatives or friends in Australia does not imply that they are granted assisted passages or any special facilities which are” denied to British migrants. White British subjects have always been free to come to Australia; they do not even require to be nominated. Any British resident of Australia may at any time introduce his relatives or friends who are of white British nationality, subject to their being in sound health andof good character, without seeking permission to do so, and without being required to furnish any maintenance guarantee, as is required in the case of aliens. The confusion is due to a failure to distinguish between assisted migrants and non-assisted migrants. No assisted passages are granted to alien migrants. Grants of assisted passages for British migrants were curtailed during the depression, and the resumption of such grants depends on the willingness of the State governments to co-operate with the Com- ‘ monwealth Government. The Commonwealth is prepared to grant assisted passages to British migrants from the United Kingdom to the extent desired by the States.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Task the Minister for the Interior whether he will lay on the table of the House all the papers in connexion with the case of Lum Roy, the wealthy Chinese merchant, and also other Chinese referred to by him in his statement in the House on the 18th Tune ?

Mr PATERSON:

– T shall ascertain whether the papers can properly be laid on the table. If not, “I” am prepared to show them to the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr BAKER:

– I ask the Minister for the Interior whether it is correct as stated in the press this morning that approximately 100 Southern European migrants arrived at Fremantle by the Orama and that about 320 arrived by the Exquilino last Saturday? If that is so, can it be understood by the people of this country that the policy of the Government is to encourage such immigration?

Mr PATERSON:

– I shall make enquiries with reference to the numbers mentioned by the honorable gentleman. I can only say at the moment, that the number of aliens who will have arrived in this country during the year which is just closing, is smaller than the number for the previous year.

page 491

TARIFF BOARD REPORTS

Mr WHITE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · BALACLAVA, VICTORIA · UAP

– I lay on the table reports and recommendations of the Tariff Board on the following subjects : -

Aluminiumware and Enamelledware n.e.i., but not including: Stoves mid Baths.

Black Printing Ink and Printing and Stencilling Inks n.e.i.

Cables, Telegraph and Telephone, paperinsulated lead-covered.

Cocoa Beans, Cocoa Butter and substitutes therefor, Caramel Cocoa, Chocolate and Confectionery. -Electric Horns for Motor Vehicles.

Gas Meters of the consumers’ typo and parts thereof.

Gypsum, Plaster of Paris

Porcelainware for electrical purposes.

Rennet

Screws for wood.

Show Card Colours in liquid form.

Spray Pumps, hand operated, n.e.i.; Spray

Pumps, foot operated; Garden Syringes;

Lawn Sprinklers

Sprocket and Chain Wheels for motor cycles. and move -

That the reports be printed.

In response to certain criticism that has been offered, I point out that reports of the Tariff Board cannot be laid on the cable, if there are to be any alterations of the tariff, until a schedule embodying the alterations has been brought down.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 491

QUESTION

TARIFF ADVISORY COMMITTEE

Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944

– Will the Minister for Trade and Customs give the assurance that, if confidential trading information is placed before the Tariff Advisory Committee at the request of departmental officers, he will, if so requested by those supplying the information, undertake that it will not be made available to other than departmental officers ?

Mr WHITE:
UAP

– That practice is sometimes adopted by the Tariff Board, and it may be reasonable to have it observed by the Tariff Advisory Committee. If the honorable member will place his question on the notice-paper I shall have the matter investigated.

page 491

QUESTION

INTERNATIONAL SITUATION

War In Spain

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– Is the Attorney-General in a position to give to the House any information in relation to the present international situation?

Mr MENZIES:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · UAP

by leave - The Minister for External Affairs made a statement on the international situation in another place on the 23rd June, in the course of which he reviewed in some detail the present position in Spain. The events of the last few days have, however, led to certain material modifications in the situation.

It will be recalled that the Nonintervention Committee, which now consists of the representatives of 27 European countries, passed a resolution on the 16th February of this year, to the effect that the Non-intervention Agreement should be extended as from midnight of 20th-21st February to cover the recruitment in, the transit through, or the departure from, their respective countries, of persons of non-Spanish nationality proposing to proceed to Spain for military service. Agreement was also reached for the establishment of naval supervision of the coast of Spain and the Spanish dependencies, to be undertaken by the British, French, German and Italian Governments. On the 26th May the Italian ship Barletta was bombed by Spanish Government aeroplanes, and on the 29th May the German warship Deutschland was bombed by two Government aeroplanes with considerable loss of life. As a reprisal for this action, German warships bombed Almeria on the 31st May and the German and Italian Governments notified the Non-Intervention ‘Committee that they had ordered their ships to take no further part in the naval patrol ‘of the Spanish coasts. Consultation subsequently took place between the British, French, German and Italian Governments, and it was agreed, on the 12th June, by those four -powers, which were responsible for the naval patrol of the Spanish coast, that, in the event of any attack upon the foreign warships engaged in the patrol, the four Governments concerned would meet as quickly as possible for the purpose of reaching agreement among themselves for joint action.

As a result of the alleged torpedoing of the German cruiser Leipzig on the 19th June, discussions took place between the representatives of the British, French, German and. Italian Governments with a view to deciding upon the measures to be adopted to meet the particular case. The four Governments concerned have been unable to agree upon a common course of action. The attitude of the British Government was sufficiently indicated by Mr. Eden’s reply in the House of Common’s to a question by Mr. Attlee, the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Eden then stated, “I can definitely say that the British Government has no intention of joining in a naval demonstration off Valencia.” . …” It is clear that the agreement is not working as we should wish it to work, but it is an agreement to which every nation in Europe has put its name, and consequently, we have gravely to consider the position which confronts us.”

The present position is that the German and Italian Governments have once more notified the Non-intervention Committee that they will take no further part in the naval patrol. Mr. Neville Chamberlain, the British Prime Minister, in the course of a statement on British foreign policy in the House of .Comm’ons, on the 25th .lune, said that the danger of the Spanish situation lay in the struggle between rival systems of government. If the supporters of one system carried intervention beyond a certain point, a complex situation might arise, the effects of which no one could foresee. As a result, the British Government’s policy was being consistently directed towards localising the conflict in Spain, and the object, Mr. Chamberlain said, had been substantially achieved by the policy pursued by the Non-Intervention Committee. The duties that had been assumed by the Powers to stop arms going to Spain involved the danger of incidents, owing to the fact that the interference of foreign Powers was resented by both sides. Mr. Chamberlain concluded: “I do not exclude the possibility of a mistake in the Leipzig^ incident, but the Germans claim that they could not allow their ships to be exposed to risk is reasonable, in view of the indignation and resentment the .incident aroused in Germany, and that they showed restraint. The disappearance of the German and Italian ships means that there is no longer danger of similar incidents. We must now decide how to fill the gap in the patrol and start again our endeavours to withdraw the foreign volunteers. I earnestly appeal to all responsible men to weigh their words, and bear in mind the consequences of rash phrases. Sometimes an incautious move, or even a loud exclamation will start an avalanche. That is the condition in which we find ourselves to-day; but although the snow is perilously poised, it has not begun to move. The exercise of caution, patience and self-restraint may yet save the peace of Europe.”

Prom the outbreak of the conflict in Spain, the Commonwealth Government has consistently pursued a course of strict non-intervention in. the internal affairs of that country, and it believes that this policy commends itself to the great majority of the people of Australia.

Mr BRENNAN:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · BATMAN, VICTORIA · UAP

– I ask the AttorneyGeneral, in his capacity as Minister representing the Minister for External affairs in this chamber, if it is possible to supply honorable members with daily up-to-date statements of events in Europe and Britain, which the Department of External Affairs obtains through official channels, instead of what I conceive to be merely a formal review of events which, because they happen several weeks earlier, are well known to members? I suggest that honorable members could be supplied with this information daily whether or not Parliament happens to be in session ?

Mr MENZIES:

– To the extent that information received by the Department of External Affairs from overseas is noi; received as secret and confidential, I shall be very happy to comply with the honorable member’s request.

Mr WARD:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the AttorneyGeneral tell the House whether Great Britain expects to be as successful with the policy of non-intervention in Spain as it was with the sanctions upon Italy during the Abyssinian trouble?

Mr MENZIES:

– The policy of nonintervention in Spain has achieved a very considerable measure of success in very great difficulties. Those difficulties are not diminished by questions such as that asked by the honorable member.

page 493

QUESTION

WIRELESS BROADCASTING

Mr PERKINS:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is it a fact that broadcasting station 2KY has been used on several occasions during recent weeks by a prominent member of the Pastoral Workers Industrial Union to broadcast statements with the object of causing strikes and trouble among shearers in the western district of New South Wales? If so, will the Minister see that the necessary steps are taken to prevent the continuation of such statements?

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

– I am ascertaining the facts in connexion with the matter raisedby the honorable member. Ifhe will be good enough to place a question on the notice-paper, I shall endeavour to give to him a satisfactory reply.

page 493

QUESTION

LOAN FLOTATION

Mr BAKER:

– Has the Acting Treasurer seen the statement in yesterday’s press that the Treasurer (Mr. Casey), who is now overseas, in commenting upon the recent £2,000,000 loan, said that he was in favour of the resumption of overseas borrowing, and can he say if Mr. Casey’s statement expressesthe Government’s attitude on this subject?

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

– I have not seen the statement referred to, nor am I in a position to make any statement of Government policy in relation to this matter.

page 493

QUESTION

AIR MAIL BASES

Sir Donald CAMERON:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– I ask the Acting Minister for Defence the following questions : -

  1. In view ofthe statement attributed to the Mayor of Woollahra in the Sydney Sun of the 27th June, that the council was not opposed to flying boats alighting on the waters of Rose Bay, provided that there is no alienation of. the foreshores and park, will the Minister consider utilizing Pinkenba, on the Brisbane River, asthe terminus of the England to Australia air mail service?
  2. Does the Minister consider that the service could be conducted just as efficiently with Brisbane as the terminus, with an extension service from Brisbane to Sydney?
  3. Does the Minister agree that Pinkenba, where there is ample space for the establishment of service stations, would make an ideal terminus, and, if so, will he immediately enter into negotiations with the Queensland Government with a view to making Pinkenba the main servicing centre for Empire boats?
Mr THORBY:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Commerce · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– Everything possible is being done to expedite the completion of the necessary services to enable the Empire flying boat service to be inaugurated at the earliest possible date. Pinkenba has already been approved as an air port. I understand that it is suitable for all the purposes for which it may be required, including the establishment there of any necessary works. It is not for me to say which is the most suitable terminal point for the service; experts consider that it would be desirable to have the terminus at Sydney. Further surveys are being carried out, and the matter generallyis receiving consideration; but until the final surveys have been made it is difficult to anticipate the decision of the Government.

Mr FROST:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– Will the Acting Minister for Defence inform me whether the Government has considered making Cambridge, the airport in Tasmania, a terminal port for the proposed flying boat service? All the water and land facilities necessary are available at Cambridge.

Mr THORBY:

– The honorable member’s representations will be taken into consideration.

page 493

PAPERS

The following papers were presented :-

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. - 1937 -

No. 10- Amalgamated Engineering Union; Australasian Society of Engineers; Australian Workers’ Union: Australian Federated Union of Locomotive Enginemen; Electrical Trade Union of Australia ; and Federated Society of Boilermakers, Iron Shipbuilders, and Structural Iron and Steel Workers of Australia.

No. 11 - Commonwealth Legal Professional Officers’ Association.

Defence Act - Royal Military College - Report for1936.

Public Service Act - Appointment of R. C. Shelston, Attorney-General’s Department.

Public Service Act - Appointments of R. J. Brown. A. E. R. Kennedy, H. M. Morrison, M. E. McShane, Department of Commerce.

Northern Territory - Report on Administration for 1936.

page 494

QUESTION

EAST-WEST RAILWAY TIMETABLE

Mr NAIRN:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I direct the attention of the Minister for the Interior to a statement in a section of the press, which appeared to be official, to the effect that the new timetable to be adopted on the opening of the Port Pirie section of the East-West railway provided that trains agoing west from Adelaide would leave Adelaide at 6.45 p.m. instead of 9.45 a.m., thereby achieving a saving of nine hours in the journey from Adelaide to Perth. Will the Minister inform me whether that statement is accurate? If so, is it proposed to make any really effective reduction of the travelling time occupied by persons travelling from the eastern side of Adelaide to Perth, or will such travellers be required to occupy the same time in making their journey as at present, the difference being that they will spend a longer time in Adelaide than at present, and a shorter time in the train? Is the proposed new arrangement to be of a temporary character?

Mr PATERSON:
CP

– I presume that the honorable member is referring to a temporary timetable which will be put into operation during the period between the opening of the new line and the placing into commission of the eight new locomotives which are being built for this service. Some delay has occurred in the building of these locomotives due to difficulties in obtaining the right qualities of steel. It will probably be about November before the engines are available. Until that time, it will not be possible to make the complete saving of one day in the timetable ; the only reduction of time will be the partial saving provided for in the interim timetable.

page 494

QUESTION

AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURE

Mr PRICE:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I direct the attention of the Acting Minister for Defence to the report of an address delivered by the Honorable E. W. Holden, M.L.C., at the Political Economy School, in the course of which he stated that the aircraft industry proposed to be established by private enterprise would have been located in South Australia but for the -opposition of the Defence Department. The Minister for Defence, Mr.

Holden said, did not know that his de partment was bringing pressure to bear in connexion with this decision because officers living in Melbourne did not wish to change their place of abode through the industry being established in South Australia. Will the honorable gentleman inquire into these statements and make a full report to the House as to the actual position?

Mr THORBY:
CP

– t have no information whatever on this matter, but I shall cause inquiries to be made into it. ‘

Mr HAWKER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Irrespective of whether the Defence. Department did or did not seek to influence the decision of the persons interested in establishing an aircraft factory in Australia, I ask the Acting Minister for Defence whether any systematic action is taken by either the Advisory Council on Munitions or the Defence Department itself, in order to ensure that munitions plants shall he located in different parts of Australia to reduce their vulnerability in case of attack, and ako to decentralise industry and population?

Mr THORBY:

– That subject is always considered by the various boards interested, such as the Naval Board, the Military Board, the Air Force Board, the Munitions Board’ and the Defence Council. The Government receives the best advice possible from the expert officers associated with these organisations.

page 494

QUESTION

AIR FORCE CADETS

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Acting Minister for Defence to supply me with information as to the method adopted by the Defence Department in selecting cadets for the Air Force. Is the selection governed strictly by merit as revealed at competitive examinations, or is more favorable consideration given to certain districts than to other districts? I should like to know exactly what influence is exerted in connexion with the granting of these cadetships.

Mr THORBY:
CP

– No influence is exerted in selecting cadets for the Air Force. A special board makes the selection following upon very rigid examinations. Medical, educational and other tests are applied to ascertain which applicants are thought to be most suitable for the service. Even after cadets are selected, they are obliged to serve for a probationary period during which their suitability for the work is tested under practical conditions. During the probationary period, it is often found, either by the trainees themselves, or by the officers of the department, that certain cadets are unsuited for the workthey would he called upon to perform, and their cadetship is terminated. No favouritism is shown to any district, and no influence is brought to bear upon the selection of the cadets.

page 495

QUESTION

WIRELESS BROADCASTING

Talksby Senator A. J. McLachlan.

Mr CURTIN:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Is the Acting Prime Minister yet in a position to reply to the questions I asked him last week as to whether the addresses which I understand Senator A. J. McLachlan is to give on fisheries and the tobacco industry on the 30th June and the 6th July, respectively are to be regarded as exposition of Government policy in respect of those industries? If they are to be so regarded, is it desirable that expositions of Government policy should be delivered at this stage having regard to the fact that, in their nature, such utterances must be partisan? If the speeches are not intended to be expository of Government policy, but are merely relative to the evolution of these industries, would it not be preferable that they should be delivered by an officer of the department, rather than by a Minister who is at present a political candidate, in South Australia, for election to the Senate?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– I promised the Leader of the Opposition that I would discuss this subject with the PostmasterGeneral upon his arrival in Canberra. I have done so, and I am now able to inform the Leader of the Opposition that the honorable senator assures me that his proposed broadcast addresses on the fishing and tobacco industries will be of an entirely non-political character, and will deal with the work which has been, and is to be, carried out in connexion with the industries concerned. They will also deal with the results of scientific investigations. They will not deal specifically with the activities of any particular government. The Leader of the Opposi tion, will I am sure, appreciate that it is the function of responsible Ministers to inform the public on matters of this kind and to endeavour to stimulate public interest in the development of important industries.

page 495

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE

Refreshment Room Charges

Mr CURTIN:

– Is there any foundation, Mr. Speaker, for the report in a section of the press that, during last week, typists employed in connexion with the services of this Parliament had to withstand an arbitrary and sudden increase of the price of meals served in the parliamentary refreshment rooms from. 1s. 6d. to 2s.? If the report be correct, has the change been effected as the result of a decisionby the Joint House Committee and,generally, why has the charge been raised?

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. J. Bell).I have heard nothing of the matter, but I shall make inquiries.

page 495

JUDICIARY BILL 1937

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) agreed to -

That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act to amendthe Judiciary Act 1903-1934 and for other purposes.

Bill brought up and read a first time.

page 495

SUPPLY BILL (No. 1) 1937-38

Debate resumed from the 25th June (vide page 485), on motion by Mr. Menzies -

That the message be referred to the committee of supply forthwith.

Upon which Mr. Forde had moved by way of amendment -

That all the words after “That” be omitted with a view to inserting the following words: - “ this House directs the Government -

) To increase the rate of invalid and old-age pensions to £1 per week and to liberalize the provisions of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act;

To take whatever steps are necessary to ensure progressive reductions in the number of working hours and increases in living standards commensurate with increased powers of production due to the mechanization and speeding-up of industry; and

To give effect to the Prime Minis ter’s pre-election promise made in 1934 that a great national housing scheme would be undertaken in conjunction with the States and local authorities.

Mr FROST:
Franklin

– I support the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) which reads : -

That all the words after “That” be omitted with a view to inserting the following words: - “ This House directs the Government -

To increase the rate of invalid and old-age pensions to £1 per week, and to liberalize the provisions of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act.

To take whatever steps are necessary to ensure progressive reductions in the number of working hours and increases in living standards commensurate with increased powers of production due to the mechanization and speeding-up of industry.

To give effect to the Prime Minister’s pre-election promise made in 1934 that a great national housing scheme would be undertaken in conjunction with the States and local authorities.”

In my speech I shall endeavour to keep to the point and not wander about in a way similar to that of several members on the Government side who spoke on this measure last week. I refer especially to the honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett) and the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane), both of whom dragged the name of Mr. Lang, the Leader of the Opposition in the Parliament of NewSouth Wales, into the debate. Neither of those honorable gentlemen gave any real information to the House; all that they could do was to quote passages from the Hansard of the State Parliament. The speech of the honorable member for Barton was not of a high character, although he was successful in getting a good deal of publicity throughout Australia.

It is not with pleasure that I rise to support the amendment, because I feel that there should never have been need for it to be moved. When invalid and old-age pensions were cut by 2s. 6d. a week about seven years ago as part of the general sacrifice imposed by the financial emergency legislation, we were told, not only by the then ministerial supporters, but also by honorable members then in Opposition, that the first restoration made when finances improved would be to the pensioners. The Labour Government which introduced the financial emergency legislation would, I contend, not havereduced the rate of the pension if it had not received a promise from the Opposition that improved Commonwealth finances would be accompanied by a restoration of pensions to their former level. When the United Australia party came into power it made matters for the pensioners worse because, although money rolled into the Treasury, restorations were made to them only in dribs and drabs. Last year when the finances of the country were so buoyant that public servants were able to receive full salary restorations, the pensioners were left with a pension which was still 1s. a week less than it was before the depression. I have no doubt that the pensioners are well aware that the recent increase of1s. a week could have been granted last year, but was deliberately withheld until this year, so that it would become payable shortly before a general election. I regard this as scandalous neglect of the interests of the aged and indigent. The administration of the law regarding invalid and old-age pensions has been tightened up generally.

I could name a number of elderly folk who have been denied the pension, although they are well deserving of it. I call to mind the case of a lady aged 78 years, who lives in the back country along the Derwent Valley. I admit that she holds a certain area of land. She pays rates and taxes in respect of it, but finds it is of no use to her. She has lived in thebush for the last 60 years, and has reared a large family. She is in the unfortunate position of being unable to sell the property or to obtain a sufficient income from it to maintain her. In these circumstances, she is undoubtedly entitled to the old-age pension, but she is forced to live on the charity of her children. In another deserving case, a father who receives slightly more than the basic wage has to maintain an invalid daughter who is slightly over 21 years of age. This young woman is subject to fits, and needs a person in constant attendance upon her. The parents are struggling to purchase their home, and cannot afford to employ anybody to look after their invalid daughter. The health of the mother, who has undertaken the responsibility of caring for her daughter, is much impaired as the result of the strain. Since the daughter ‘ requires some one in attendance on her practically continuously, day and night, she should be granted the invalid pension, and made financially independent of her parents. My attention has also been directed to the circumstances of another family, in which the father is over 65 years of age, but is denied the pension because his wife, an industrious woman, and considerably younger than her husband, works for sixteen or seventeen hours a day conducting a small business. The pension is withheld because the profits of the business are over a prescribed amount. The many cases of hardship which have come under . my notice show that the law regarding invalid and old-age pensions should be liberalized.

When the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) made his policy speech three years ago, he announced that a great national housing scheme was to be launched. Reference was made to the need for the abolition of slums, and we anticipated that money would be made available to the States to promote general improvement of the housing of the poorer classes of the community. But we have heard nothing further from the Government as to what it proposes to do in this matter. In many respects the housing conditions in this country are not so good as they are in some other parts of the world. Two years ago I, in company with a number of other honorable members, visited Great Britain, and noticed the way in which slum areas were being eliminated. Dwellings erected in Manchester hundreds of years ago, and reeking of vermin and disease, had been removed and the sites were being utilized to provide public parks and recreation grounds. Adjoining estates have been purchased and on these new homes for workers had been erected. A five-roomed semi-detached dwelling with a flower garden at the front and a vegetable garden at the rear, could be obtained for 12s. 6d. a week and, in the event of the breadwinner being out of employment, the rent was only 7s. 6d. a week. These conditions are far in advance of those obtaining in Australia. Even in Russia, where some of the housing was of the worst possible kind, we noticed that flats had been erected for workmen. After the revolution, the popu- lation of Moscow was about 3,500,000, but industrial development has been so rapid in recent years that the population has now grown to about 5,000,000, and the governing authorities have had great difficulty in providing sufficient homes for the people. I hope that the provision will be made in our Estimates for the ensuing year for a vigorous housing policy. ‘ The people of Australia are tired of promises ; they demand that action be taken.

I have listened attentively to the diverse points of view which have been expressed by many honorable members in connexion with the shorter working week. For instance, the honorable member for Henty stated that a 40-hour working week was not practicable in Australia, but only a few minutes afterwards another honorable member on the Govern ment side of the House, announced that the Government was giving this matter a great deal of consideration.

Sir Henry Gullett:

– Does the honorable member advocate the application of the 40-hour working week to the apple growing industry ?

Mr FROST:

– Yes. Irrespective of the industries concerned, the shorter working week should be introduced and I am convinced that it will presently come into operation in this country. When I consider the large number of unemployed in the Commonwealth, I am more ‘than ever convinced .that the solution of this problem lies in the reduction of the hours of labour.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– How many hours a week do the apple growers work?

Mr FROST:

– The honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) should not refer to an industry about which he knows nothing. When shipments have to be fulfilled, men work as many as 24 hours a day in the apple industry, but they have a lot of time off during wet weather. Speaking from a wide experience of labour conditions throughout Australia, and particularly as a fruit-grower, I am (happy to say that I have never known a man to refuse to work day and night in order to fulfil shipments of fruit. If a man treats his employees properly, they will do a fair thing by him. I regret that some honorable members opposite and some primary producers are apparently unwilling to reciprocate with their employees and desire a one-way track; they would work men hard until the harvest had been gathered in and in the slack season they would shelve them. Fortunately, we do not adopt such a policy in Tasmania.

Mr Thorby:

– The honorable member surely does not mean that the primary producers generally treat their employees in the way he has suggested.

Mr FROST:

– I do not refer to all primary producers, but my remarks are applicable to certain sections of them. The introduction of a shorter working week is necessary if we are to find work for our unemployed. I recall that in one particular factory, in the United States of America, which was brought under any notice, the men were literally running to work.

Mr Mahoney:

– They had spiked shoes on.

Mr FROST:

– That is so; but while these hands themselves were driven at their work, there were outside the gates more unemployed men than there were employees in the factory. Such social conditions can have nothing to commend them. In Australia at the present time 250,000 persons are without employment and they have to be kept by the people who are fortunate enough to have jobs. We give them only sufficient of the necessaries of life to enable them to exist, but I am convinced that with a reduction of the hours of labour work can be found for all of them. Every man and woman who is able and willing to work should be given employment. If persons deliberately decline to accept work, they can be dealt with; but until they have been given the opportunity of refusal, they simply must be kept. It is the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government to find work for these people.

In the course of this speech I have referred to a number of different subjects, but before I conclude, I desire to make some observations in respect of freights on the shipments of fruit overseas, because this is a matter of great moment to my electorate. I give the Assistant Minister for Commerce (Mr.

Thorby) credit for having devoted a good deal of consideration to this subject, with the result that he has been able to secure from the shipping companies a rebate of 5d. a bushel on apples shipped over-seas for the coming year. At the same time I emphasize that such a concession is not a reduction of freight. The existing rates of freight will be maintained, and the rebate is liable to be lifted at any time.

Mr Thorby:

– That is not so. The rebate will operate for a period of at least three years and for such further period as is agreed upon by the respective parties or until such time as either side takes the necessary action to give notice of termination.

Mr Mahoney:

– But incoming freights have been increased by 10 per cent. ! ‘

Mr Thorby:

– The apple growers of Tasmania will not be affected by that.

Mr FROST:

– The rebate system is not in the best interests of all growers because those who sell their fruit f.o.b. to merchants will not receive the advantage of the rebate. Then again, at the end of the three years when possibly the agreement may be reconsidered or even terminated, difficulties are almost certain to arise in respect of payments of the rebate by the buyers to orchardists in respect of prior purchases.

Another hardship which is imposed upon fruit-growers, is in regard to the pre-payment of exchange amounting to 7£d. a case, and I know of no other exporting industry which is subject to such a levy. The shipping companies are not entitled to this pre-payment, and although they give the growers a rebate of 5d. a case, the growers are still 2£d. out of pocket as the result of the charge made for exchange.

Mr Thorby:

– Most of the other exporting industries are paying 25 per cent, exchange, but the apple and pear industry pays 18 per cent.

Mr FROST:

– Those other industries pay the freight at the other end, whereas the growers of apples and pears pay the charge at this end, for the simple reason that they are shipping a perishable product, if fruit arrives in a rotten state at the London docks the Tasmanian growers themselves are the losers, and the shipping companies protect themselves by collecting the freight beforehand. Honorable members will therefore realize that the convenience of the shipping firms themselves is being met by the payment of freights at this end.

Mr Nock:

– An exchange rate of 25 per cent, is charged on wheat.

Mr FROST:

– That may be so; but the freight on wheat is charged in London and the grain itself arrives at its port of destination in good order. Fruit is always liable to become rotten during the voyage.

At this stage I desire to make a brief reference to the unsatisfactory shipping agreement which exists at the present time. I have already had occasion several times this year to telegraph to the Acting Minister for Commerce in regard to this situation. The facts of the case are that orders were lodged for shipments of fruit to continental ports, but the shipping companies stated that insufficient space was available on the boats sailing at the time to accommodate the produce. One firm alone informed me that, as the result of being unable to obtain shippingspace, it lost a continental order for 40,000 bushels of apples. This was most regrettable in view of the fact that at the time Tasmania had a prolific crop of apples and the fruit was going to waste. If the firm in question had been able to ship the apples, the continental buyer would have paid 1/- more a case than the ordinary f.o.b. price. I also regret that the shipping companies appear to reserve the slowest boats in their service for the shipment of fruit. Early varieties of Tasmanian fruit are picked in February, and should therefore arrive in England by the middle of April ; but some boats which left a.t the beginning of March took more than 70 days on a journey which should normally be completed in. less than 40 days. The quality of the fruit itself has been good, the apples complied with all the regulations, and a market was awaiting the shipments in the early part of the year, but the fruit-growers have made a substantial loss for the simple “ reason that the early varieties of apples and pears which should have arrived in the United Kingdom in the middle of April did not reach the port of destination until within the last fortnight. According to a complaint made by one grower, he picked a Granny Smith variety one month before he had picked a Worcester Pearmain variety, but the shipment of Granny Smiths arrived in London only one week before the Worcester Pearmains. Owing to the Government neglecting to make satisfactory shipping arrangements that grower lost practically the whole of his shipment. When the fruitgrowers in South Africa were similarly treated by the British shipping companies they subsidised an Italian company.

Mr Thorby:

– Would the honorable member support this Government if it acted similarly?

Mr FROST:

– If the Assistant Minister for Commerce were a fruit-grower he would favour similar action to enable him to market his product satisfactorily. Had he to submit to the conditions under which many of the fruit-growers in the Huon valley are working he would do almost anything to get his shipments away so that he would have some return for his arduous work. Many of these nien who are clearing forest lands in order to plant their orchards and establish their homes are losing heavily. Some are faced with ruination and almost starvation while the Government declines to assist. There is a valuable market for Australian fruit in India, but as shipping space is not available the Tasmanian fruit-growers cannot dispose of their products in that country. The fruit-growers once asked a shipping company if it would accept fruit as deck cargo in an endeavour to dispose of their products. There is also a good market for apples in Egypt. Four or five years ago L made representations to the Government to see if arrangements could be made for vessels to ship Tasmanian apples for discharge at Fort Said. One grower had an order for 30,000 bushels of fruit, but it was impossible to secure space on a vessel which would remain at that port sufficiently long to discharge the shipment.

Mi-. Thorby- That was the first and only consignment of fruit that has ever been offered for that port.

Mr FROST:

– The grower could not get a shipping company to take it.

Mr Thorby:

– It was the only consignment that that shipper ever had for that port.

Mr FROST:

– A consignment of 30,000 bushels was available, but the space could not be secured.

Mr Thorby:

– That grower expected to ship at short notice to a port to which he had never previously consigned fruit.

Mr FROST:

– The incident happened several years ago ; but as he could- not get the space he could not ship the fruit. Owing to the inconveniences experienced Tasmanian apple-growers have lost a lot of business. I support the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) and I trust that the Government will give it the most serious consideration.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I am prompted to take part in this debate because I believe that the House should take more cognizance than it has, of a remark made by the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) who, in speaking earlier in this debate, referred to Great Britain as a foreign imperialistic power. He said -

I wish now to offer a few observations concerning the activities of certain representatives of this Government overseas. It cannot be denied by any observant student that foreign imperialistic powers - and among the number 1. include Great Britain - are preparing for war.

I regard that as an ‘important and a very significant remark for any honorable member of this House to make. It is important because of the great measure of protection that the Commonwealth has enjoyed for a century and a half from Great Britain, and c-f the effect it may produce in Great ‘Britain owing to our complete economic dependence upon that country. It is also important because of the British ancestry of 98 per cent, of the Australian people, and because no less than 15 per cent, of the whole population of Australia is comprised of men, women and children who were born in the British Isles. It is even more important because of certain amplifying statements made by the honorable member which I propose to quote. I’ believe that that statement conveyed fairly accurately the attitude, not only of the honorable member for East Sydney, hut also of that of the members of the

Labour party in this chamber, on the subject of Empire defence. [Quorum formed.’] On the 16th November, 1933, the honorable member said -

I am of the opinion that any honorable member who, at the present stage in the history of Australia, supports the expenditure of an extra penny on additional armaments must be cither a knave or a fool; and when I look at the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) I imagine that the correct description is “ knave “.

During the same debate he said -

If this amendment is agreed to it can be taken us an intimation to the Government that no further expenditure of public money upon additional armaments at the present period in the history of Australia is warranted or justified.

Again on the 4th December, 1934, the honorable member said -

In conclusion I have only to say that I am entirely in agreement with the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini). I would welcome an opportunity to vote against the expenditure of even a penny upon the Defence Department as it exists at the moment.

On the 5th November, 1936, he said -

Surely no ohe imagines for a moment that if Australia were unfortunate enough to conic under the heel of some foreign country . . . the material condition of the people relatively would bo much worse than it is at present.

During the same debate the honorable member said -

I should not be prepared to take up. arms against the workers of any country, whether they be Germans or of any other nationality. As a mutter of fact, because I am not prepared to do that, I am not prepared to tell others to do so.

I remind honorable members that these are not the pusillanimous outbursts of a political tyro; they are the considered statements of a man of mature years, and of very considerable parliamenary experience. If we were to examine the public utterances made in this chamber and elsewhere of several other members of the Labour party we should find that a very considerable section of that party has always given expression to identical views.

Mr James:

– Why not quote from their speeches ?

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– It would bo quite easy to quote from the speeches of the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini), the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) and the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan), to show that what I say is true.

When such statements are made in this House they are always accompanied, if not by actual applause from other members of the Labour party, at least by their silent approval. These statements have never been repudiated by the Labour party, and therefore must fairly accurately reflect the general opinion of members of the Labour party on the subject of Australian and Empire defence. If they have any meaning at all they must mean that, in the opinion of the Labour party as represented in this House, Australia should have no defence policy, that there should be no Empire defence policy, that our armament factoriesshould be closed and that all our other defence institutions should be closed also. If that be not so, and if I have not interpreted aright the statements I have quoted, then there is a very real obligation upon the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) to state honestly and unequivocably where the Labour party stands in regard to this subject of defence. I do not suggest that he is able to speak for all members of the Labour party, but there is a definite obligation onhim to make the attitude of the Labour party crystal clear in this regard. The party will shortly seek the votes of a majority of the electors of this Commonwealth. The defence of the country, having regard to the general state of the world to-day, should be one of paramount importance in the policy of any political party, and no party has the right to ask for the support of the electors while its record is stained by such unrepudiated statements as I have quoted to-day.

Mr Lazzarini:

– The honorable member has deliberately misrepresented the speech of the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward).

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– In deference to the honorable member’s interjection I shall again read the extract which I previously quoted. It is as follows: -

I now wish to offer a few observations concerning the activities of certain representatives of this Government overseas. It cannot be denied by any observant student that foreign Imperialistic powers - and among the number I include Great Britain - are preparing for war.

Mr James:

– What is wrong with that?

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– If the honorable member is not capable of seeing what is wrong with it, I do not feel disposed to try to educate him. I ask honorable members to reflect upon the spartan discipline which the Labour party demands from its members in regard to its own domestic affairs, a discipline which in New South Wales requires the excommunication and political annihilation of any member who dares to deviate in the smallest degree from the narrow path of servile obedience to the party dictator. I ask them to contrast that discipline with the licence which the Labour party permits its members in respect of Empire affairs, a licence which enables them to stigmatize Great Britain as a foreign Imperialist power, which by inference places in the category of foreigners those thousands of English, Irish and Scotch-born men and women, now resident in Austraila, and which enables them to advocate the complete abandonment of our defence policy, both for Australia and the Empire, together with the closing down of arms and munition factories. Worse than that, it gives members of the Labour party licence to disseminate with septic tongue the toxic doctrine of disloyalty throughout this country, and for the encouragement of those foreign powers who would rejoice at, and are even now conniving at, the disintegration of the British Empire. Ofcourse, the explanation of members of the Labour party is that everything they do and say is in the interests of peace, but I remind them that the surest way of bringing war to the British Empire to-day is to allow foreign nations to get the idea that responsible public men in the dominions are disloyalists. No greater injury could ‘ be done tothe cause of peace than the publication abroad of speeches such as those which have been made on the subject of defence by the honorable member for East Sydney. I particularly want to know from the Leader of the Opposition whether or not he will make a statement in this House clarifying the attitude of his party to the defence of Australia and the Empire. I want to know whether he will dissociate himself from the remarks of the honorable member for East Sydney, and other members who have spoken as he has. I point out that, whenever such remarks have been made in this House, the Leader of the Opposition has maintained an eloquently significant silence. He has offered no rebuke, and has allowed the maximum amount of licence to every member of his party. There is an obligation upon him now to say where he stands. If he desires to dissociate himself from such statements, what action does he propose to take to purge his party of those who make them? Apparently, in the minds of certain honorable members opposite, who represent electorates in New South Wales, it is of far greater importance to be loyal to Lang than to the Empire.

Mr Rosevear:

– Hear, hear !

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– Honorable members applaud that remark. Apparently, if one is loyal to Lang, one can, with absolute impunity, be disloyal to the Empire. Evidently, those are the sentiments of certain honorable gentlemen opposite.

Mr James:

– This is awful to listen to.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

-In order that members of the Labour party may make their position on this matter quite clear, I ask the following questions -

Will the Leader of the Labour party in this House say whether or not he believes in co-operation between Australia and the Empire for their mutual defence ?

Does the Labour party in this House believe in a co-ordinated policy of defence for the Empire,in which each individual unit of the Empire accepts its full responsibility in respect of defence ?

Does the Leader of the Opposition believe thatthe Empire is worth defending ?

Will the Leader of the Opposition state whether his party believes in the Empire at all?

If the answer to each of those four questions is in the affirmative, then I wish to know what steps the Leader of the Opposition proposes to take in order to free his party of the disloyalists it now contains. From the remarks and interjections made by honorable members opposite to-day, I have come to the conclusion that if the Leader of the Opposition freed his party of all the disloyalists now among its members he would have very few followers left. If his answer to each of my questions is in the negative, then I wish to know how the Labour party can claim to represent the people of Australia when it refuses to accept any obligations whatever for their defence.

Mr MARTENS:
Herbert

.- In reply to the assertions just made by the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson), I shall refer to a statement made by an honorable member in this House, who knows just as much abou t the Labour party as the honorable member and is more genuinely anxious to understand that party’s defence policy, namely, the Minister for Defence (Sir Archdale Parkhill). When the Minister was delivering a speech on the defence policy of the Government last session, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) asked him whether he suggested that the Labour party had no defence policy, and he replied, “In accordance with the decisions of the Adelaide Convention of the Labour party, I would say that your defence policy is very nearly the same as ours “. That is my answer to the nonsense just uttered by the honorable member for Macquarie concerning this party’s attitude towards the defence of Australia and the Empire. When participating in the Gwydir by-election campaign, the honorable member for Macquarie was reported in the press of that electorate as stating that he would say nothing about the defence policy of the Labour party, because it had none. The honorable gentleman made that statement in face of the fact that the defence policy of the Labour party has always been available for his perusal and, in fact, has been in operation since the time it established what has derisively been described byhonorable members opposite as “Australia’s mosquito fleet”. The leader of this party has in as many words and just as definitely, stated where it stands in regard to the defence of Australia and the Empire, as Mr. Mackenzie King stated Canada’s viewpoint in this respect at the recent Imperial Conference.

For reasonsbest known to himself, the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page), in dealing with the 40-hour week proposal, stated that Mr. Forgan Smith, the Labour Premier of Queensland, had opposed that proposal. I point out that Mr. Forgan Smith was one of three

Premiers who, at the last Premiers Conference, supported that proposal, not merely with his voice, but also with his vote. To-day an endeavour is being made, not only to reduce hours, but also to improve working conditions generally in industry. Speaking at the Maryborough Convention of the Labour party in February, 1935, Mr. Forgan Smith said -

The question of a reduction of working hours was a very pressing one that affected every country in the world. But a reduction of hours must he pursued in an orderly fashion find in a maimer calculated to achieve the result desired. Queensland was not a, highly mechanized State. lt was primarily a primary-producing Statu. It was no use currying a resolution which would have the effect of militating against the industries of the State. He believed in a progressive reduction cf hours. He had introduced the 44-hours lull, and would like to see a further reduction <<t’ hours. But it had to be done in an orderly fashion. What he had in mind was un amendment of the law to provide for a maximum week of 44 hours with a lesser working week whenever and wherever practicable. 1 suggest that no member of the Labour party wishes to do things willy nilly; we have sufficient intelligence to investigate a proposal to see whether or not it is practicable. Apart from the establishment of a 40-hour working week in many industries in the Commonwealth, there is still further scope for reducing hours. By reducing hours unemployment could be relieved to u considerable extent. I am not so foolish as to believe that such a step would solve all our industrial troubles, including unemployment. I appreciate the fact that there is room for further mechanization of industry. Indeed, I am perfectly satisfied that many responsible for that degree of mechanization which has already taken place have withheld further action along those lines because it would displace a lot of employees. The Premier of Queensland ( Mr. Forgan Smith) outlined the position ;is it exists in this respect when he declared that this problem was agitating, ibc minds of industrial leaders in every part of the world. Thus, when it is -fca ted that Mr.. Forgan Smith opposed the 40-hour working week proposal, honorable members should be informed completely of his viewpoint on this matter. 1 n that connexion I point out that he has opposed a proposal for the establishment of a 30-hour week in industry ; honorable members have been told nothing about that. Already, in Queensland, certain unions have presented :a claim to the Arbitration Court for the establishment of a 30-hour working week, and Mr. Smith’s statement at the Maryborough conference, which I have just quoted, referred as much to that proposal as to the 40-hour week proposal. I emphasize that the Labour party believes that the working week in industry generally should be reduced. Honorable members on this side of the House have urged the adoption of a 40-hour working week, but I remind honorable members opposite that this Government instructed its representative at the International Labour Conference at Geneva last year (Sir Frederick Stewart) to support such a proposal, and since then it instructed its delegate at the recent International Labour Conference to support the proposal for a 40-hour week. I suppose, however, that Mr. Scholfleld’s report will suffer a fate similar to that of Sir Frederick Stewart’s report; nothing will be done about it. I am perfectly satisfied - and I say this definitely to my friend the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. Frost) - that included among honorable members opposite and their supporters are many who are opposed to the introduction of a 40-hour working week in industry. If they had their way these people would increase hours to 60 a week and, in addition, reduce present wages by “50 per cent.That is the difficulty confronting the Government in this matter.

Some misconception seems to have arisen in respect of certain remarks which. I made the other day to the effect that the best way to defend this country was to give those living- in it something worth, defending, such as a’ standard of living fit for human beings. I suggest that such a standard does not obtain to-day. We have been told by honorable members opposite about the enormous volume of building that is going on. At Bondi, Sydney, where I occasionally spend a week-end, I have noticed unusual building activity, but most of this is in the erection of flats, which I suggest represent another form of slum.

Mr Nock:

– Thousands of buildings of other kinds are being erected.

Mr MARTENS:

– The proportion of houses under construction, both in respect of numbers and cost, is very small. To-day any man with a worth-while job who feels that others are trying to undermine him by offering to do the work at less pay, takes immediate steps to retain it at all costs. He will defend his job, if it is worth defending. The same principle operates in regard to the defence of a country by its individual citizens. If their conditions of employment are reasonably good - in other words, if they are treated as human beings - they will realise that the country is worth defending, and they will not be lacking if ever the call comes to them to assist in its defence. It is idle to expect young men of young women, whose parents have done all in their power to give them a good start in life, to be A’ery enthusiastic about the defence of their country, if they are unable to secure employment. 1 have seen large numbers of young men from the southern portion of the Commonwealth seeking employment in the sugar industry in North Queensland, because work has not, been provided for them in their own States. We are all familiar with means adopted by men who are forced to take to the road. In their ever-widening search for work they beg lifts of passing motorists, and, whenever opportunity is presented of a cheap train ride they “jump the rattler “ to their next destination. In all seriousness, I ask, is it fair to expect that the many thousands of young men in Australia who are unable to secure employment, would be eager to fight in the defence of this country? On one occasion, during the ItaloAbyssinian crisis when a number of young men and women were discussing this subject, in my hearing, I heard one man say, “ Oh, yes ; we will all’ join the B company.” When I asked for an explanation, I was told quite frankly “B company means that we shall be here when others go away, and we shall be here when they come back. As we cannot get work in this country, we do not see why we should be expected to fight for it.” I may be told that it will be impossible to find the money to provide all our unemployed young men and women with work at rates of pay that would enable them to live as human beings. My answer is that there is never any difficulty about finding money for the destruction of human lives and property in war; so I repeat that if this country is worth defending, and I believe it is, it will be defended successfully only if its citizens enjoy the God-given right to work for it.

The honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) quite wrongly endeavoured to show that every member of the Labour party endorsed certain of the statements made on Thursday last by the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward). I might, with equal right, ask the honorable member for Macquarie if all the members of his party endorsed everything that was said on Friday last by the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane), who occupied the time of the House for about three-quarters of an hour in a tirade of abuse of Labour leaders and members. I do not for a moment believe that they do, and I suggest that the honorable member for Macquarie has no right whatever to say that all members of this party support every statement made by any individual member of it. The honorable gentleman seemed to be thinking only of the British. Empire which, I may remind him, is not now so designated. It is known as the British Commonwealth of Nations, and I may add that members of this party are as earnest as is any other section in this House in their determination to defend Australia as a component part of that association. Speaking for myself I am in accord with Mr. Mackenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada, who declared recently that he would never be a party to any proposal to send any young men out of Canada to take part in a war. I do not believe that the manhood of Australia should be sent overseas to take part in squabbles on the other side of the world, and certainly I would not support any move that would involve Australia in the Spanish trouble which is not a Spanish war at all. If ever such a« proposal were made, my advice to young Australians would be to stay at home to look after what belongs to them.

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– My remarks will be confined to the second paragraph of . the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), who is asking the Government “ to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure progressive reductions in the number of working hours and increases in living standards commensurate with increased powers of production due to the mechanization and speeding-up of industry.” During this debate I have heard from both sides of the House many interesting opinions on this important subject from those who have made a more or less intensive study of the problem, and since I was one of the delegates at the International Labour Conference at Geneva a a year ago, I have taken more than a passing interest in it. Desirable as it may be that the nations should agree to the principle of a 40-hour working week, I feel that much remains to be done in gaining an understanding of the problem and in the reorganization of industry before wo can embark on the scheme with reasonable safety.

I listened with interest to the remarks of the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Martens) with reference to the attitude of Mr. Forgan Smith, the Premier of Queensland, who. declared that he would not do anything to militate against the interest of his State. That statement, I suggest, has an important bearing on the altitude which, honorable members should adopt. The movement for a 40-hour working week was initiated many years ago. During the depression the proposal was revived because of the acuteness of unemployment due, it was believed, to the mechanization of industry. When I reached Geneva, my first request to the International Labour Office, which has a numerous staff, was for some indication of the percentage of unemployment that was caused by the mechanization of industry. I asked whether such unemployment was 5 per cent., 15 per cent., or 20 per cent. In order that I might, if necessary, re-orient my thoughts on the subject. I regret to state that I was unable to obtain the information, nor have I since heard it cited. It is beyond dispute that mechanization has displaced a great deal of labour in different industries, but concurrently with that displacement there has been a marked increase of labour in other and new industries. I need only cite the motor industry, with its thousands of service stations and garages in all countries, and the large volume of employment which has arisen from the demand for new and improved roads. Similarly there has been an increase of employment in the motion picture business, in wireless broadcasting and in many new industries dealing with the preparation of foodstuffs. I have no doubt that if one scrutinized the list of new industries that have been established in recent years, the volume of new employment given by them would be found to balance the employment displaced by the mechanization of previously existing industries. It may be that blame for the acute unemployment reported in all countries a few years ago, rests with governments for not having devised schemes to absorb in other avocations workers who, owing to the mechanization of industry, have been displaced in many old fashioned forms of employment. But something in that direction i3 now being done. At the present time a great deal of vocational training is being undertaken by the British Government. Large numbers of idle workers are being removed from the distressed areas for vocational training in new occupations in order that they may be reemployed in other industries. Meanwhile, we must recognize that, in recent years, the standard of living has -changed in every country. Conditions of living which were accepted fifteen, twenty or even ten years ago, no longer suffice.

We have new standards, to meet which there are all sorts ,-of new demands on factories, and consequently a further demand for” labour. To a certain extent this has been the experience in Australia, and it is illustrative of what has happened in the rest of the world. At the present time a record number of workers is employed in factories throughout the Commonwealth, due partly to our changed fiscal system, but also, to a large extent, to the demand for other goods that can be manufactured locally. After the displacement of labour by mechanization and the depression ceased to be a valid cry, there was added to the 40-hour week Convention the stipulation that the reduction of hours should be effected “without a decrease of the living standard. “With that, I agree; I have no “wish to see living standards lowered anywhere. But that introduced quite a complication. For the purpose of my argument, let us assume that the extra charge on industry would be 20 per cent., and on that basis compare the results in countries that have different standards. In respect of a skilled worker in a low-wage country, whose pay is at the rate of lOd. a day, the addition of 20 per cent, to that figure would make his wage ls. a day. In respect of the skilled worker pf another country who receives what we regard as a more reasonable rate of pay - say, 10s. a day - the addition of 20 per cent, to that figure would make his wage 12s. a day. The original difference between the two is 9s. 2d. a day, but with the addition of 20 per cent, it becomes lis. a day. That brings us to one of the great difficulties which Australia has to face, namely, competition. Until we can induce our competitors to raise their standards of living to a level commensurate with ours, I am afraid that we shall be in for difficult times in our endeavour to establish a safe and sound economic basis for the application of the 40-hour week. Our competitors are fairly numerous, and we have said that until they do something to help us by raising their standards, we shall be unable to accept f idly the principle of the 40-hour week. It may be applied to some industries. As a matter of fact, it now operates in what are described as dangerous industries - for example, mining - and in some noxious industries. In the Commonwealth Service alone, approximately 17,000 persons are working on the basis of a 40-hour week.

Mr Drakeford:

– And not “in dangerous industries.

Mr Mahoney:

– Nor in noxious industries.

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– When I refer to noxious industries, I include all those that are described as undesirable industries - not conducive to the employee’s health or safety. Who are our competitors? In Great Britain we have a friendly competitor and a large exporter. The case of that country is known to us, therefore there is no need for me to reiterate it. Then there is Japan, which is on a much lower wage scale, with a currency that ‘is deflated below ours, a wonderful capacity to work the very modern machinery it has installed, and the determination to do in the next five years a great deal more than it has already done, probably from fourfold to sixfold as much. Then there are Germany, Italy, Belgium, and numerous other European countries, as well as the United States of America, each of which, on account of its larger turnover, is able to produce articles at a lower rate than is possible to us. Is our reply to impose embargoes, higher tariffs, and quotas in respect of imports? Because of the reaction to that policy, our primary industries suffer. Each of the countries that I have* mentioned is a. buyer of our wool, wheat, meat, barley and fruit. Therefore, the application of a shorter working week to our secondary industries would close the overseas market to our primary industries, with the result that men in the country would be thrown out of employment, their purchasing power would be lowered, and unemployment would be caused in the secondary industries concerned. I would confidently ask any housewife in Australia whether she would prefer that her husband should have constant employment at longer hours with a steady weekly pay, or that some persons should have employment on the basis of a 40-hour week and others should lose their employment. At the moment, the world does not seem to be ready for either this or many other reforms. Italy, which unfortunately - in a fit of pique, I think - withdrew from the International Labour Office last year, before we had had an expression of opinion from its delegates, was one of the early countries to adopt a 40-hour week; that was done in order that unemployment, which was then rife in the country, might not overwhelm the Government. The idea was that everybody should be put to work and be under control in that Fascist State. But as late as April of this year the 40-hour week went by the board in relation to practically one-half of those who were in employment. They were allowed to work 48 hours because it was found that,’ with the demobilization of the troops, business was greatly accelerated by both internal and external orders.

In some of the busier industries the employees were allowed to work up to 60 hours a week. In the United States of America, the National Industrial Recovery Act was applied to industry and codes were formulated in order that -something might be done to absorb the unemployed. It was not that, however, which reduced unemployment, but the sales of products overseas. The case of the United States of America is so distressful at the moment that I do not think even the codes have given much cause for either pleasure or pride. Germany, which is one of our strong competitors, especially in the metal and electrical trades, has no such thing as a 40-hour week. Belgium has a 40-hour week, but only on humanitarian grounds. In that country, the entire family - father, mother and all the children - work in the factories, and it was in an endeavour to prevent the employment of some of the children that the 40-hour week was introduced. In France, I saw something of the operation of the 40-hour week. Belgium and France are good places in which to see it. M. Johaux, the head of the International Federation of Labour in France, is a very prominent advocate of the principle, while the secretary of the same federation in Belgium, M. Mertens, was just as active, flying backwards and forwards between Brussels and Geneva while I was attending the conference of the International Labour Office, to see that the proposal was advanced. Having conversed with these two gentlemen, I am satisfied that the acuteness of the unemployment problem in their countries was due, not so much to the depression, as to the fact that they still remained on a gold currency. I formed the opinion that, until they departed from the gold standard and devalued the franc,’ employment would not increase. To meet the trouble which arose from the gold currency, a vicious circle was begun by the government. It subsidised those industries which were compelled to observe a 40-hour week; the owners protested that they could never sell overseas, goods produced in such circumstances. These subsidies were the principal factor in causing the deficit in the French budget which overwhelmed M. Blum only last week. With inter national trade on a level competitive basis, without tariffs or0 other agencies, it is obvious that an agreement between all the nations for the adoption of a 40-hour week would be quite possible. That opinion is buttressed by the experience of what is perhaps, in an experimental sense, the leading industrial nation of the world ; I refer to the United States of America, whose representative at the conference, after making an excellent survey of the position in favour of a 40-hour week, ended her speech with these words : -

The shorter working week is economically possible provided the competitive area is covered; that is, the various textiles and the international market.

There are eight different branches of the textile industry; that is why textiles were mentioned in the plural. But then there is the international market. In my opinion, countries whose industries, primary or secondary, depend for their success on the export market, cannot compete successfully with other countries in which the labour conditions are less advanced. The representatives of other nations, which are competitors of Australia, also made some interesting comments. For instance, Mr. Kitaoka the Japanese Government delegate, with, the brusqueness which is typical of the Japanese, in a frank statement said -

The Japanese Government cannot agree to the 40-hour week, either as regards the textile industry or as regards other industries.

Another delegate to the conference, whose name will be familiar to honorable mem-‘ bers, was Mr. Ernest Brown, the Minister for Labour in the British Cabinet. He addressed the fullest session of the conference that I attended, and was listened to with rapt attention.

Mr Holloway:

– He is not a Labour man.

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– In support of my statement that he is a Labour man.. I draw attention to his remarks at e farewell gathering to the Prime Minister of New Zealand, Mr. Savage. Mr. Brown expressed the hope that one of th, neighbours of New Zealand - he referred to the Commonwealth of Australia - would shortly experience a change of government. I am sorry that Mr. Brown is likely to be disappointed in that connexion, but his remarks show that he is a Labour man.

Mr Holloway:

– He belongs to an anti-Labour government now.

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– If honorable members opposite had had the honour and pleasure of talking with him, as I had recently, they would agree that his views ave very similar to those held by the

Opposition in this chamber.

Mr Mahoney:

– The honorable member would not sound Mr. Brown’s praises if he were a true Labour man.

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– I hope that I shall always be willing to sound the praises of any man who is making an honest endeavour to uplift his fellow men.

On page 55 of the Record of the Proceedings of the 20th Conference of the International Labour Office, Mr. Brow, speaking for the United Kingdom - a country which depends largely on its export trade - said -

We wish to be satisfied that the obligation taken by Great Britain would be similar to that taken by other countries, and that the effects would be similar. We wish to be satisfled that the effect would not be the cause of unemployment by creating a wider margin between the conditions of British workers and those of other countries. When the terms are properly understood by our work people they would regard themselves as having been deceived.

He was referring to the draft convention in regard to the textile industries, which was ratified last week at Geneva. “We should be attempting to deceive the people of Australia if we .told them that the introduction of a 40-hour week would not decrease their standard of living. I am convinced that a 40-hour week is impracticable in Australia at the present time. Its introduction would be unfair to those engaged in rural industries unless some compensating concession were granted to them. The effect of the introduction of a 40-hour week into New Zealand has been to raise the cost of living in primary industries in that dominion. Dairy farmers, who previously were content with 12£d. per lb. for their butter fat, have said that they cannot carry on unless the rate is increased to 14d. per lb. In considering a 40-hour week, regard must be had to the claims of primary, as well as of secondary, industries. “Wo must be careful lest, instead of ushering in an era of further employment and prosperity, we cause additional unemployment and distress.

Mr. MCCLELLAND (Wimmera) [5.1 j. - The majority of speakers on the Opposition side of the chamber have endeavoured to find reasons for .supporting the amendment, and have failed to show any appreciation whatever of the achievements of the Government. I am one who believes the statement that “Finance is government, and government is finance”. Judged by its financial . achievements, the Lyons Government must be acquitted of practically the whole of the charges levelled against it during this debate. Honorable members would do well to cast their minds back to the conditions which prevailed when the Lyons Government first assumed office. When its predecessor, the Scullin Government, left the Treasury bench, the Commonwealth deficit was about £10,750,000, and the total of the deficits of the Commonwealth and the States was about £25,500,000. Of the total deficits of the States, amounting to approximately £15,000,000, more than half, or about £7,750,000, had been incurred by the State of New South Wales, at that time in control of a Labour government led by J. T. Lang. That gentleman is still the leader of the New South . Wales Labour party, whose followers are not an unimportant section of the Opposition in this chamber. The first Lyons Government assumed office about the. middle of 19”31-32, at a time when the Commonwealth and the States faced a combined deficit estimated at between £35,000,000 and £40,000,000. However, as a result of the strong measures taken in pursuance of the Premiers plan, the deficits at the end of the year were far below the estimate, although they still amounted to the considerable sum of £19,500,000. It is noteworthy that, at the end of 1931-32, the Commonwealth showed a surplus of about £1,300,000 odd. The deficit of New South Wales was the largest of all the States, and amounted to approximately £14,250,000. From that year onward the finances of the Commonwealth and the States have shown consistent improvement; in respect of the Commonwealth, the surpluses, including the estimated surplus for the year which will end in a few days, amount to approximately £10,500,000, whilst the States expect this year to come within £1,500,000 of balancing their budgets. In this connexion, I pause to mention that Victoria, which hopes to end the year with a surplus, has, for the first time in the history of Australia, a Country party Government, and I may add that the influence of that party in the New South Wales Government is an important factor in the present satisfactory financial position of that State, which also will have a surplus. “The Commonwealth has reached its present favorable financial position despite considerable reductions of taxes. The Lyons administration has consistently reduced both direct and indirect taxes, until at the present ‘ time the reduction is about £16,000,000 per annum, or a total of about £44,000,000 since it came into power. That means that a similar sum has been left in the hands of the community for investment in other than governmental enterprises. The effect of those reductions of taxes has been so beneficial that I urge the Government to make further reductions, because, even now, taxes are exceedingly high.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– Surely one of those many millions of pounds could have been expended in restoring the pension to £1 a week.

Mr Mcclelland:

– Although the pension may not be so high nominally as it has been, its purchasing power is greater than ever, thereby making the effective pension higher than at any previous time in the history of Australia. During the same period the Government has restored salaries and social service payments to the amount of £3,374,000 annually. On top of all this it has been responsible for the conversion of £200,000,000 of our overseas debts upon terms which effect a saving of £4,000,000 annually to the taxpayers of the Commonwealth.

In these circumstances, I fail to see why . the Government should have been subjected to such unrelieved destructive criticism. Its record is one of which any administration might be proud. The

Opposition should have been fair enough to recognize at least some of the virtues of the Administration. If there is truth in the. adage that sound finance is the best test of government, this Government’ is entitled to credit for what it has done.

Certain other factors have contributed in no unimportant way to the satisfactory financial position of the country. Honorable gentlemen opposite have had a good deal to say in a pessimistic strain about the economic outlook of Australia, but as I see the situation there has never been a time in our history that I can recall when, generally speaking, the outlook for the future was brighter than it is at present, especially if the value of our exportable products remains near the present levels. The almost superhuman efforts made by those engaged in our great export industries has been the most notable factor in achieving this happy state of affairs. Even honorable members opposite will be prepared .to admit that in a debtor country the exporting industries are, in’ the last resort, a determining influence in the. welfare of the whole community. It will he remembered that in the depth of the depression the previous Prime Minister (Mr. Scullin) made a strong appeal to those engaged in our primary^ industries to do their best to increase their production, in order to help the country to overcome its difficulties. Notwithstanding that about that time and for a considerable period subsequently, the price obtainable for our primary products overseas was excessively low, those engaged in our exporting industries, particularly wool, wheat, dairying, fruit and meat, strained every nerve to increase production. Had it not been for the large volume of exports from Australia during this period it would have been impossible to convert our overseas debts on such satisfactory terms. Our primary producers are, therefore, . entitled to the grateful commendation of Parliament for what tho, did.

Unfortunately, however, several of our exporting industries were brought to a very low ebb, and many of those engaged in them were utterly exhausted financially through their heroic endeavours. In these circumstances the Government came to their aid. I admit that at times a good deal of - prodding was necessary r.o get some Ministers to realize how necessary it was to assist our primary industries to maintain their operations at the maximum point, hut ultimately this fact was realized.

The Lyons Administration is entitled i.o recognition because of the active part i t took, in its earlier days, in the framing of the Ottawa agreement, under the. provisions of which considerable benefits accrued to some of our exporting industries. 1 refer in particular to the meat, fruit and dairy produce industries.

The Government has also, from time to time, made substantial grants of money, amounting in all to about £19,000,000, ro assist the primary producers. Of this total about £14,000,000 was made available to wheat farmers to tide them over a period of dire distress. Further, the Government has provided £12,000,000 to assist necessitous farmers under conditions laid down in our debt adjustment legislation. This money is to bo paid to eligible farmers over a period of three or four years. That such legislation was necessary is proof positive that the policies implemented by various governments in the earlier days of federation were basically wrong in that they failed to place our primary and basic industries on a permanently satisfactory footing. [Quorum formed.] Although it is gratifying that the legislation for the adjustment of farmers’ debts will make it possible for many primary producers to maintain their operations, I say quite definitely that unless the policy of this and future governments is designed to keep production costs at the lowest possible figure, further legislation of the same description will be necessary and the £12,000,000 already made available will be, to a large extent, wasted. I urge the Government to pursue a policy which will make the reenactment of this legislation unnecessary.

It is worth recording also that the Lyons Government has made £7,000,000 available to the different States of the Commonwealth to assist them to balance their bud rets and provide relief for the unemployed. An amount of £13,000,000 has been provided, too, for special grants to necessitous States. In the same period the public debt has been reduced by about £8,000,000, and in the last three years £8,000,000 of Commonwealth revenue has been spent on Commonwealth works, thus leaving practically the whole of the Commonwealth loan money free for the use of the States. lt will be agreed, I think, that I have given the Government credit where credit was due. But one aspect of its administration has not been satisfactory to me. During the period it has been in office the Government has paid about £14,000,000 to the State Governments for road construction work. This, however, is only a relatively small proportion of the total amount of between £35,000,000 and £40,000,000 which has been collected by the duty on petrol. ‘ We appreciate the great improvement that has been effected to our roads, particularly in the outlying areas of the different States, but the users of petrol were entitled to much more consideration than they have received from the Government. Unless a far larger proportion of the money received from the petrol tax is to be made available for road work and other purposes beneficial to petrol users, I shall have no hesitation whatever in describing this impost as class taxation, to the reduction of which the Government should give the most careful consideration.

I wish now to refer briefly to what I regard as a promise made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) about two years ago in connexion with the method of electing the members of the Senate. The statement to which I refer reads - 1 have been considering the vote for the Senate, and its results. The results are not final yet, but it appears that the parties opposed to Labour will either win all eighteen seats or nearly all of that number. It happens that on this occasion the voting system has operated to the advantage of the party which I represent; but it is obvious that, having regard to the voting by the people, it is scarcely just that the Labour party or parties should obtain no representation. There can be no excuse or justification for allowing such a system of voting to remain, if it is possible to ‘ devise a bettor system. I propose, therefore, to invite the leaders of the other parties to join with me in appointing a committee representing all the parties, to consider and report to the Government upon the possibility of changing the present system of voting for the Senate.

Mr MCBRIDE:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– That was a personal opinion.

Mr MCCLELLAND:

– The honorable member may so regard it, but I consider it to be a definite promise by the Prime Minister. The sentiments expressed are reasonable and I heartily concur in them. 1 am not aware that any conference such as that suggested by the Prime Minister has been held, and I would strongly urge, even at this late period of the session, that steps should be taken to rectify what I consider to be a most unjust electoral system. The honorable member for Echuca (Mr. McEwen) dealt very clearly with this subject at some length a few days ago, and I endorse all- that he said on that occasion.

The Government is not free from other sins of omission and commission, but I shall reserve my remarks on them for a future occasion.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

.- The only subject mentioned in the amendment to which I shall address myself is the principle of the 40-hour week, about which a good deal has been said in this debate. The Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) dealt with it in two ways. He contended, first, that it was not competent for the Commonwealth Parliament to inaugurate a 40-hour week generally, or with relation to any particular industries; and, secondly, that even if it were competent for it to do so, the subject could be dealt with more properly by the Commonwealth Arbitration Court than by the legislature. I think that is a fair statement of the view expressed by the right honorable gentleman. This matter was discussed in this House last year and in 1935. Since then two decisions have been given that have an important bearing on the matter; one is, the Australian decision referred to by the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) and the other was a decision by the Privy Council on Canadian legislation given in January last and reported only, I think, in the Dominion Law Reports for this year. The Attorney-General suggested to the House that the decision given by the High Court really weakened the case for Commonwealth action with relation to a 40-hour week. He said that the view of the majority of the judges did not lend colour to the suggestion that the international labour conventions could be enacted by this Parliament. He did admit that in the judgments of Mr. Justice Evatt and Mr. Justice McTiernan there were dicta which clearly showed that their opinions were that the international labour conventions could be enacted by the Commonwealth Parliament, but he suggested that the other three judges were of a different opinion. lt is clear that, whatever were the opinions of Mr. Justice Star-ke and Mr. Justice Dixon, the opinion of the Chief Justice, Sir John Latham, was close indeed to the opinions expressed by the two judges I previously mentioned. The Chief Justice said: -

There is no reason whatever why placitum xxix should not be given its natural and proper reason, whatever that may be, as an independent legislative power.

Then he considered the matter elaborately, and refused, I think, definitely to take the view that this power is limited to matters which are intrinsically international in the old view.

Mr Menzies:

– I agree with that.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– That is to say his view, so far as it goes, supports the view taken by Mr. Justice Evatt and Mr. Justice McTiernan. Mr. Justice Starke refused to discuss the matter beyond saying that if the meaning of external affairs is so limited as is suggested by the Attorney-‘General, the power over aviation certainly comes within it. Mr. Justice Dixon is the man who most nearly gave the decision which the Attorney-General said that the majority of the Full Bench of the High Court did make, and even he said that the matter must be left for discussion until some subject definitely involving it arises. I respectfully submit that, so far from the Aviation case weakening the strong stream of opinion which was running in the direction of the Commonwealth Parliament having power to enact international labour conventions, it strengthens that stream.

Mr Menzies:

– I assure the honorable gentleman that I did not say that, in my opinion, the decision weakened the Commonwealth’s power.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– I think that was the tenor of the honorable gentleman’s language.’-

Mr Menzies:

– On the contrary, I regard the judgment of the High Court as affording the strongest argument that has yet been provided in favour of Commonwealth enactment.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– I am glad to have that statement from the AttorneyGeneral.

Mr Menzies:

– But I respectfully think that the opinion of Mr. Justice Dixon is the correct one.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– The opinion of Mr. Justice Dixon was not expressed in any complete and definitive form. He said that it would be surprising if the Commonwealth Parliament would, under its external affairs power, have power to attract’ to itself control over things which were domestic in nature. The Attorney-General has suggested that if the Commonwealth Parliament could get control over labour by means of international labour conventions, it could similarly get control over .education and lands. There may be conditions in which it would be. perfectly reasonable, legally and’ otherwise, that the Commonwealth Parliament should implement an international convention relating to education.

An Honorable Member. - And circumvent the Constitution ?

Mr BLACKBURN:

– No ; it is not a matter of circumventing the constitution. If, with the object of increasing the chances of peace and diminishing the chances of war a convention were made for the international revision of the teaching of history, particularly European history, so that the schools of a nation should fairly set out the cases of the rival nations as well as of itself and refrain from laying emphasis on military achievements, I’ can see no reason why the Commonwealth Parliament, the Canadian Parliament, or. the Parliament of the United States of America, or any other federal parliament should not legislate to carry that out, although .that legislation might impinge upon state or provincial educational powers. Again, if, by an international convention, the nations agreed that aliens should have the same right to hold land as is given to nationals^ which is the law in Victoria and some other States, I see no reason why the national Parliament should not have power to carry that out. As the Chief

Justice said in the Aviation case, the question of abuse of power, or of fraud upon power, could be met when it arose, but it is difficult to conceive of nations agreeing to do something with the only object cf giving to the federal states of the world power to do that which they otherwise could not do. How could France, Great Britain or Spain, for instance, take the trouble to make an agreement with Australia for the mere purpose of giving to the Commonwealth a legislative power which it otherwise could not get?

The other judicial case that bears on the Commonwealth power of enactment is the Canadian one decided by the Privy Council. It is suggested that the decision means, in effect, that the Australian Parliament could not adopt any international labour conventions relating to hours. The Canadian Parliament, at the instance of the then Prime Minister, Mr. Bennett, recently adopted an international labour convention made in 1919 and providing for a 48-hou’r week with an elaborate formula for the application of the convention to different countries. Substantially the whole of the scheme was adopted by the dominion Parliament. The present Prime Minister, Mr. MacKenzie King, referred to the Canadian Supreme Court the question whether that legislation was valid, and the Court decided that it was ; there was equality of voting, with the Chief Justice turning the scale in favour of the validity of the legislation. An appeal was carried to the Privy Council, which in January this year held that the legislation was invalid. It is often suggested, of course, that the Canadian Parliament has much wider power than has the Commonwealth Parliament. That is so upon some matters, but not upon others. Curiously enough, upon the subject of labour the authority of the Commonwealth Parliament is greater than that of the Canadian Parliament. The powers of the Dominion are set out in section 91 of the Canadian Constitution. Over certain matters therein enumerated, and not including labour, the Dominion Parliament has exclusive power, and the provincial legislatures cannot touch them. But, in addition, the Dominion Parliament has a reserve or residuary power to legislate on any other matter provided it does not enter the domain exclusively reserved to the provinces. In section 92, which dennes that domain, there is a sub-section dealing with “ civil rights “, and the Privy Council held in the case decided in 1925 that power to control labour in Canada is reserved by the Constitution to the provinces, and by that decision invalidated a law which had been in effect for twenty years, namely, the Lemieux Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. In order to establish the validity of its hours legislation, the Dominion of Canada had to satisfy the Privy Council that section 132 of its Constitution gave it power to enact international labour conventions. The Privy Council held that section 132 limited the class of treaties which the dominion Parliament could enact under it to treaties made between Great Britain aud other countries. Their Lordships said that these international labour conventions did not fall into the class of Empire treaties. No reliance could be placed on the Treaty of Versailles, because it did not impose any obligation on Canada to enact International Labour Office conventions. Canada could only enact these conventions as treaties itself had made, and not as Empire treaties. That was the principle, it seems to me, upon which the Canadian case was decided. On that decision the power given by section 132 becomes very much narrower than our power of external affairs, and, therefore, the decision in the Canadian case does not impose any legal obstacle to the Australian enactment of international labour conventions. I agree with the Attorney-General that the Commonwealth Parliament has been given no general power over labour. It is given power to make laws in relation to conciliation and arbitration for, the prevention and settlement of industrial disputes. That means, in effect, that all it can do is to set up an arbitration court, and instruct it to settle industrial disputes as it thinks fit. It cannot give the court directions for the settlement of disputes or lay down the principles upon which the court is to proceed. But, under a number of other headings the ‘Commonwealth Parliament orin affect labour. Until 1921 it was the practice of the High Court, in interpreting the powers of the Commonwealth under section 51, to cut down the natural meaning of the words so as to preserve the domestic powers of the States. The High Court read those powers as if they were an expressed provision that the States were to be free to exercise any power not expressly given to the Commonwealth. There is an expressed provision in the Constitution of the United States of America that powers not given to Congress and not forbidden to the States are reserved to the States. There is no such provision’ in our Constitution, but for seventeen years it had been interpreted as if there were. The Engineers case in 1931 gave that doctrine its quietus, and since then powers specified in section 51 have been given their natural meaning, even if they do give power to control labour. The passage I quoted from the Chief Justice has relation to the view that the Commonwealth power over external affairs must be given its full, natural meaning without worrying as to whether it gives to this Parliament the power to control labour. That applies to the powers in respect of trade and commerce and some other matters. The- Attorney-General knows very well that ‘the view expressed in the Aviation case by Justices Evatt and McTiernan is supported by a good deal of authoritative legal opinion. The Attorney-General would not regard the opinion of Professor Kenneth Bailey as negligible. In a paper published in the first volume of the reports of the proceedings of the Australian and New Zealand Society of International Law he expressed the opinion that under the external affairs power the Commonwealth Parliament could pass legislation giving effect to international labour conventions. This Parliament may have powers in respect of external affairs, apart from placitum xxix of Section 51, but it seems to me that if it believes in a 40- hour week it should attempt to enact it. I have always understood, until I heard the speech made last week by the ‘honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett), that the Government of which he was a member thought that the 40- hour principle was desirable and that the

Government had shown that belief by the instruction given to its delegates to the International Labour Conference in 1935, and subsequently, but particularly in 1935 when it was represented by the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart).

Sir Henry Gullett:

– I did not cover that ground at all.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– I thought that the honorable member said that the adoption of a 40-hour week was undesirable, and would be injurious to the people.

Sir Henry Gullett:

– As an isolated enactment.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– I cannot see that that argument is consistent with the instructions given to our delegates in 1935 and 1936. I do not desire to impute dishonesty to the Government, but the Government would be acting dishonestly if it empowered its delegates to vote for a policy which it believed would be injurious and which it believed would not be possible of application. In 1935, when the honorable member for’ Parramatta went overseas and supported this principle without reservation the Government thought that the Commonwealth Parliament could not be called upon to enact a 40-hour week; but, when the Government found that there was in the Commonwealth a strong opinion that the convention could be enacted by this Parliament, the Government sent its later delegate to Geneva to vote in favour of the principle on the understanding that nothing would be done by the Commonwealth to enforce it here. This thing which the Government did not intend to apply to Australia was to be inflicted on other countries, which might not understand the Machiavellian ingenuity of the United Australia party mind !

I would supplement the interesting and instructive speech by the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. E. F. Harrison) by reminding honorable members of the way in which New Zealand has dealt with the’ 40-hour week. That Dominion has enacted two statutory provisions - the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act and the Shops and Factories Act. The provision in the former is that there shall be a 40-hour week subject to the power of the court to refuse it in any case where it thinks proper. I remind honorable members that in New Zealand the Parliament is all-powerful. There is no division of powers, as in Australia. The New Zealand Arbitration Court is therefore the delegate of the New Zealand Parliament, and that Parliament as do our State Parliaments, lays down principles and entrusts the working-out of them to the tribunal. The Parliament in the Dominion has laid it down that a 40-hour week is to be the norm, but the court may, as it thinks fit, depart from that principle and refuse to apply it to any industry. In the Shops and Factories Act, the legislature provides, again, that 40 hours is to be the norm, or rule, in shops and factories, but an appeal against that may be made to the Arbitration Court.

In the United States of America, under the National Recovery Act passed in 1933, 517 codes were set up, and 442 of them, affecting 11,000,000 workers, provided for a 40-hour week; 37 codes provided for less than a 40-hour week; and 38 codes, affecting only about 2,250,000 employees, provided for a week of more than 40 hours. In May, 1935 the National Recovery Act was declared by the Supreme Court of the United States of America to be invalid. The- reason for that declaration does not concern Australia, and does not interest me much. What does interest me is that, after that decision had been given, there was not a reversion to the old, long hours that had prevailed in that country, sometimes exceeding 48 hours a week, but that there was an increase of hours and a decrease of wages, though the change was not very great. I shall refer to figures published in the Monthly Labour Review of January last. Sixteen industries are dealt with, comprising small and large establishments, the small ones being those which employ fewer than 200 persons, and the large ones those in which more than 200 are employed. Before the National Recovery Act was annulled, the average weekly hours in the small establishments was 36.4 and in the large 35.3. In May, 1936, a year after the Act was annulled, the hours had increased to 41.6 and 40.1 respectively. The hours were barely increased beyond 40 hours a week. The decrease of wages, when employers were free from the code was very small, indeed, indicating that the general opinion of the community in the United States of America was that the reduction of hours was of considerable advantage.

Sir Henry Gullett:

– But wages were reduced.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– SI lightly. I shall give the reduction of wages. In the small establishments in the United States of America the wages in May, 1935, averaged 4’9.6 cents an hour, and in the large establishments 53.7 cents an hour. In May, 1936, the average wage in the small establishments was 49.1 cents an hour, a decrease of about 1 per cent., and in the large establishments 54.3 cents an hour, an increase of about 1 per cent. This means that when the employers in the United States of America were free from the code, hours remained close to 40 a week and wages did not substantially ;i.l tel’

Sir Henry Gullett:

– “Wages in Australia are rising substantially.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– The honorable member is changing his ground. The honorable member invited me to show how wages had altered in the United States of America, thinking that they would show a substantial change. The position in that country is that a 40-hour week is practically the normal working period, despite the fact that the employers are free to return to the long hours formerly worked. Even before the depression it was realized that a shortening of hours would be of advantage there. Let me quote the following opinion expressed in the report of the Presidential Committee on Recent Economic Changes in 1929-

Closely related to the increased rate of production is the consumption of leisure. It was during the period covered by the survey that the conception of leisure as consumable began to be realized upon in business in a practical way and upon a broad scale. It began to be. recognized, not only that leisure is consumable “but that people cannot consume” leisure without consuming goods and services, and that leisure which results from an increased man-hour productivity helps to create new needs and now and broader markets.

The policy of reducing hour’s was insisted upon long before the National Recovery Act. I think it was in 1928 when the Deputy Commissioner of Labour said to the American manufacturers that if they were wise they would establish a 5-day week and a 6-hour day, and would increase wages as well, in order to give the people of their own country an opportunity of purchasing and consuming the goods of the country. It is recognition of that principle that accounts tor the voluntary maintenance of the 40-hour week in the United States of America.

It seems to me that it is unfair and dishonest for Australia to participate in a convention with the object of inducing other countries to adopt standards which we ourselves have no intention to adopt. If we do not intend to pay attention to these international conventions we should withdraw from participation in these conferences. We are in a vicious circle of dishonesty. According to the honorable member for Bendigo, the delegates from various countries say, ““We hope that this conference will adopt the 40-hour principle. “We hope that the other nations represented will apply it to their own countries, and then we shall be prepared to apply it to ours.” That, according to the honorable member for Bendigo, was the position of the delegates of the British and Commonwealth Governments.

Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP

– And of many other countries.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– But it is dishonest to induce others to adopt the 40-hour principle before we have done so. If we take our membership of the International Labour Office seriously we should try to carry out the conventions. I. do not contend that Australia could, under the external affairs power, adopt generally the principle of the 40-hour week. I think that the Convention of Principles, 1935, was never intended as more than a declaration of the principle. It merely provides that the nations approve of the principle of a 40-hour week without reduction of pay, and that the principle is to be worked out afterwards in subsequent particular conventions. Either the Commonwealth Government should withdraw its delegates altogether from the International Labour Conferences, or it should make a genuine and sincere, effort to enact in Australia the various particular conventions as they arc made.

There has been one Convention in respect of the automatic glass bottle-making industry, -which would be hardly applicable to Australia - and there has been another in regard to public works, which is certainly applicable to the Commonwealth. We have now received news that a further convention has been made in connexion with the textile industry. I put it to the Government that an effort should be made to enact these conventions in this country. If the High Court of Australia were to invalidate such legislation, it would- not cast any shame upon the Commonwealth Government. We in Australia always act upon the principle that the worst setback that can be caused to a government is to have its legislation upset by the High Court; but that is not the opinion in the United States of America, where constitutional matters which have been invalidated over and over again by the Supreme Court have been re-introduced continually by the Executive until the majority of justices opposed to the principle in question has been steadily diminished, and such laws have sometimes been pronounced constitutional.

Let me recapitulate. The legal opinion that international labour convention can be enacted in Australia by the Commonwealth Government is so strong, not only in this country, but also outside it, that it is worth while making an experimental effort in order to ascertain whether such conventions can be validly enacted here. This Parliament should be prepared to take the risk. By so doing, the Government would not he dishonored by failure in the opinion of the general public, but it will be dishonored in the opinion of the people if -it continues to send delegates to Geneva to support certain conventions while at the same time it refuses to take any responsibility for what has been done there. I do not believe that wo can cloak ourselves in the defence that the States alone have the power to give effect to such conventions.

The Attorney-General has suggested that the proper body to make this change is the Commonwealth Arbitration Court. I do not agree at all with that opinion, and I do not think that such has been the view taken by the Arbitration Court at any time during its history. To adopt the 40-hour working week in Australia would be to effect a great change which an irresponsible body like the Arbitration Court should not be called upon to take. [Leave to continue given.] I do not use the word “ irresponsible “ in any offensive sense. What I say is that legislative power should not be exercised by a body which is not responsible to the electors. If the Arbitration Court is to be required to take the responsibility for big changes, such as the introduction of the shorter working week, it is virtually being asked to legislate while not being responsible to the people for its legislation. Mr. Justice Higgins repeatedly said that itwas for the legislature, and not the Arbitration Court, to vary the standard hours of work, and His Honour did not vary the standard hours of labour from 48 to 44 hours a week until he found that the Australian standard was changing by virtue of legislation which was being enacted in Queensland and New South Wales. Such a development was a big factor in His Honour’s decision, not only that the standard generally was changing, but also that it was changing in Australia by reason of the fact that the 44-hour working week was becoming a reality in Queensland and New South Wales. A similar principle was laid down in New South Wales in 1905 by Mr. Justice Heydon, when he was President of the Arbitration Court. Dealing with the reduction of hours from 48, His Honour said -

Still, however great a blessing the estab.lishment of the principle would be if it really is sound, I think it is not a principle to bc introduced by this court. It raises too important a political and economic question, and must be decided by the legislature.

Quite recently, showing that the same view of the functions of the Arbitration Court is held by that court, Judge Beeby said, in the Metal Trades case -

In important cases, unions still persist in their endeavour to use this court as an instrument for effecting fundamental economic changes -when, even if desirable, they are the prerogative of the legislature. As I have frequently pointed out, the court exercises quasi-legislative power for one purpose only - the prevention and settlement of industrial disputes. It is not a parliament.

I agree with that view. The Arbitration Court should not be asked to make changeswhich the legislature is unwilling to effect. I agree that a reduction of the hours of labour from 44 to 40 hours a week, which implies the shortening of the working week from six days to five, is a big and important change, and it should be made by legislatures which. will take the responsibility for it. If it cannot be completely made by the Parliament of the Commonwealth, it should be made by this Parliament in co-operation with the legislatures of the several States. What happened in Canada in connexion with the Lemieux Industrial Disputes Investigation Act? After the Act had been in force for a period of 20 years to provide for the investigation of industrial disputes, the Privy Council held it to be invalid. Did the Act lapse ? It certainly did not,because the Dominion Government and the governments of the Provinces conferred on the matter and agreed to re-enact the legislation as far as it lay within their powers to do. I suggest that an attempt should be made generally to enact the 40-hour working week in Australia by co-operation between the parliaments of the Commonwealth and the several States, and at any rate, an indication of an earnest sincerity to do so should he given by an enactment of those international labour conventions which have already been made.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
Wide Bay

– To the motion to consider the Supply Bill Ho. 1, 1937-38, in the Committee of Supply, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) has moved an amendment, and I think that it reflects great credit on the Government that after an exhaustive investigation among the archives of the Labour party’s room and in the vaults of the House, the only skeletons of criticism that could he dragged out and dangled on this occasion against the Government are two or three matters of some personal importance.

Mr Forde:

– There are a number of other matters that will be produced at the appropriate time.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– Honorable members are well aware from experience that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition never leaves behind him for the next day any propaganda material thathe can use to-day. Although we have heard from time to time during the last two and a half years very many onslaughts on the Government for so called sins of omission, it now appears that there are only three directions in which the honorable gentleman and his colleagues can attack it. Taking the last of the three charges first, I find that the only accusation that can be made against the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) in connexion with his pre-election promises is that he has not proceeded with a great housing scheme in conjunction with the States, reference to which, it is claimed, the right honorable gentleman included in some speech at some time during the election campaign. After most diligent researches on the part of the Labour Party, that is the only omission among all the promises made by the Prime Minister that can be cited to this House as the reason why we should refuse Supply for the payment of pensions, the salaries of civil servants, and the necessary business of the Commonwealth. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is well aware that it is claimed in Queensland that, under the Workers’ Dwellings Act and the Workers’ Homes Act, full provision is made for the housing of the workers and for the securing of the requisite finances for this purpose.

Mr Ward:

– That is not correct.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– The statement is quite correct : the scheme has applied for a period of 25 years.

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1936

– But such a scheme does not apply to other States.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– It applies, I think, to most of the States: and no other State has made an advance tothe Prime Minister for the purpose of obtaining financial assistance to proceed with the scheme. When the right honorable gentleman made the statement in this connexion, he said that his government would carry out a national housing scheme in conjunction with the States. But even if the right honorable gentleman were blameworthy, it is a matter of congratulation to think that the housing scheme is the only suggestion in the Prime Minister’s pre-election speeches that has not been executed.

One of the skeletons which the Deputy Leader of the Opposition has dragged out of the cupboard to dangle at this -ange before honorable members, is the appointment of a committee to examine into an increase of the invalid and old-age pension to £1 a week. The honorable gentleman, it will be recalled, was a member of the Government which effected the reduction of pensions from £1 to 15s. a week. The Government which the honorable member condemns has since increased invalid and old-age pensions from 15s. to 19s. weekly, and I trust that before long I shall have an opportunity to support a further increase t.o 20s. weekly, the rate at which it stood when reduced by the Scullin Government. In addition, this Government has also increased the maternity allowance, and restored reductions of war pensions and repatriation payments made by a Labour government. No reference has beeen made by the members of the Opposition to these restorations.

Mr FORDE:

– There was a deficit of £10,000,000 when the Scullin Government was compelled to make those reductions.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– Yes, and since then, surpluses amounting to over £10,000,000 have been shown, clearly demonstrating that the present Government is more capable of handling the finances of the Commonwealth than was the Scullin Government. Moreover, all reductions of public servants’. salaries and superannuation payments have been restored. The first Lyons Government had not only to remove depression in the form of reductions which were dangling before it, but had also to restore confidence, which brought sound financial and economic conditions such as we have to-day. This has resulted in employment increasing from the low figure it had reached in 1931 when the Scullin Government left office, and it has provided a total saving of the people’s money in the Savings Bank of the huge sum of £225,000,000. When our overseas trade balance has been low, the Government has been severely condemned. Honorable members opposite say that an unsatisfactory trade balance is due to low customs duties being imposed, but no mention is made of the fact that to-day it stands at a. credit of £32,000,000 in London. If the Government is blameworthy when our trade balance is. low, surely it is entitled to credit when it is at the present satisfactory figure? The protectionist policy of the Government,, which honorable members opposite say is ruinous to industry, has been so successful that, instead of employment in industry decreasing, it has increased substantially, until to-day there are 150,000 more men engaged in our secondary industries than when the Government took over, and 50,000 more than there has ever been before. That demonstrates that the Government has restored confidence and increased employment as it promised to do prior to the last general election. Unemployment has decreased.

Mr Ward:

– No.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– Has the honorable member overlooked the fact that at the recent Federal Arbitration Court at an inquiry into the basic wage the reason stated by the court for providing an increase of £6,000,000 in basic wage payments was that unemployment had decreased rapidly, and that it now stands at the 1 928 level ? A report submitted to the court said, “ Employment is now normal “. It also stated as a reason for the increase that export prices had reached the level of 192S.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition had to conduct considerable research in an endeavour to find a charge to level against this Government, and then he failed to do so. By delaying the introduction of the Supply Bill, honorable members opposite may prevent pensions from being paid on the due date. Is that what they wish to do ?

In advocating the introduction of a 40- hour week, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition made no reference to the effect of such a policy upon primary pro:ducers. I believe in the Australian workers having the best possible conditions, but we have to consider the effect of a shorter working week upon our rural industries. The time is not far distant when the effect of improved conditions for city workers upon primary producers must be considered. When wages are increased or hours are reduced in secondary industries manufacturers can increase prices, but primary producers, who have to sell their products in the markets of the world, have no such recompense.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 8 p.m.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– The industrial worker has received some benefits which are no doubt his due, but the primary producer is also deserving of practical consideration. I do not deny that increased wages are of advantage to the industrial workers, and to the community as a whole, but the primary producers will always be at a disadvantage unless we are able to evolve some tribunal and scheme which will permit them also to share in the general distribution of economic benefits.For several days past we have been listening to a concerted attack upon the Government and its policy, but, as a matter of fact, the Government is to be congratulated upon the weakness of the case made out against it. Foremost amongst the promises of the Government during the last election campaign was that it would take such steps as were necessary to restore public confidence, and. it cannot be denied that the Government has fully redeemed that promise. In proof of this, it is necessary only to quote the figures for building construction in Australia during recent years. Expenditure on new buildings has increased from £4,500,000 in 1932 to £22,000,000 in 1936. The figures in regard to employment are equally satisfactory, and now the economic improvement has been expressed within the last few days in a substantial increase of the basic wage amounting to £6,000,000. The Government also promised to reduce taxation, and has remitted taxation to the amount of £15,600,000 each year. Honorable members opposite have claimed that the Government has remitted taxation only to its wealthy supporters, but thisis not so. As a matter of fact, all sections of the community have benefited. For instance, the rate of the sales tax has been substantially reduced.

Mr Clark:

– The sales tax is returning £1,000,000 a year more than when the Government came into office.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– That merely shows that business has increased during that time. The rate of tax has been reduced from 6 per cent. to 4 per cent., and every commodity required for production purposes by those on the land has been completely exempt. In addition income tax, amounting to £5,250,000, has been remitted, while other remissions include land tax, £1,200,000 ; sales tax, £6,740,000; primage duty, £1,115,000; and customs and excise duties, £1,205,000. At the same time, the Commonwealth debt has actually been reduced by £9,000,000. With such a record the Government can confidently face the people, secure in the knowledge that it will obtain their endorsement for a further term of office. No previous Commonwealth Government has a finer record to show, and its achievements are in marked contrast to those of the Scullin Government. As a matter of fact, the only action of the Lang party in this House for which it can claim the gratitude of the people is that it was responsible for the dismissal of the Scullin Government from office. In addition to remitting taxation to so appreciable an extent, the present Government has also been responsible for creating greater employment in the country. When it took office in 1932, there was more than 30 per cent. of unemployment in the country, whereas now the percentage has been reduced to 9 per cent. which is practically the figure at which it stood in 1928, and it is hoped that, when the Government’s policies are fully developed, the figure will be even further reduced.

Mr Gander:

– Give the pensioners back their “ quid “.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– The pensioners are in a better position now receiving 19s a week, with the prospect of a speedy restoration to £1, than they were under a Labour administration when their pensions were reduced from £1 to 15s. The Labour Government was not content with reducing old-age pensions, but actually reduced soldiers’ pensions as well. The pensions bill of £13,000,000 has been higher under the Lyons Government than it ever was before, which shows that the administration of the scheme is more generous now than it used to be and some improvement yet could be shown.

The primary producers, however, feel that they are deserving of greater consideration. They know that they have received benefits from the Government, but there is .still room for improvement. It is admitted that the Lyons Administration advanced to primary producers £20,000,000. An advance of £14,000,000 saved the wheatgrowers when prices were low, and enabled them to retain some equity in their properties. To-day the wheat-growers are in a satisfactory position as long as prices keep up. The wool-growers are also fairly well off, but the position of the dairy farmers is still unsatisfactory, largely because honorable members opposite induced the people to vote against the referendum proposals which would have ensured a satisfactory price for dairy products. It should be possible to devise a scheme to render greater assistance to the primary producers, particularly the smaller general farmer in drought-stricken areas. Where a drought lias persisted’ for twelve months or more, the men on the land are deserving of particular consideration, and steps should be taken by the Government to alleviate their position. I suggest that the Government should buy in Australia £10,000,000 worth of gold, and issue £10,000,000 worth of notes on that gold to buy it. A recognized safe margin would” be to issue £20,000,000 credit for small producers’ grants on that gold in the vaults, without adding one penny to the national debt, and from this fund advances could be made to farmers to grow and conserve fodder, which would tide them through drought periods. No mention of such a scheme is included in lbc amendment now before the Chair, but it would be to the benefit of the whole community were such a scheme introduced. It would assure the stock assets of the farm, and conserve to the nation our stock value. We do not begrudge the industrial workers the many benefits which they enjoy, such as hospital facilities, free dental treatment, child welfare clinics, &-c., but we maintain that those benefits should be extended to the people on the land. All sections of the community should bc enabled to enjoy Australian standards of living. The man on the land should be assured of a reasonable return for his labour, and his wife and children should be assured of reasonable comfort. If this were done there would be an inducement for the young men and women who are bred on the land to remain on the land, and it would not be necessary to talk of bringing settlers from overseas to place on our farms. In that way we would certainly improve conditions in rural industries, by inducing the young Australian lad born on the farm to continue in agricultural pursuits, and this policy ultimately would be to the advantage of the nation as a whole, certainly to the advantage of the worker in secondary industries.

The Government has been criticized a great deal in regard to national insurance, but honorable members realize and know that it has not yet expounded a policy on that subject. At present, it has only reached the stage where reports by experts are being distributed for the information of honorable members; the Government is still investigating the subject, with the object of deciding upon the best means of establishing a national insurance scheme; and until the scheme is proved to be actuarily sound and the States agree to its proposals, it cannot expound its policy. I sincerely hope that it will not rush forward with an illconsidered proposal on such a vital matter.

Being in control of the affairs of the nation, this Government must take cognizance of international affairs. By means of an effective defence policy it must seek to protect all that is dear to us in this country, and it must see that it i3 able to play its part as a member’ of the British Commonwealth of Nations. I contend that this Government is carrying out such a policy. Honorable members opposite suggest that it should aim primarily at removing the causes of provocation to other nations. Let us examine what these causes are. For instance, if the wishes of honorable members opposite were fulfilled we should have to abandon our policy of a White Australia. Would they be prepared to support such action? Furthermore,” Ave should be obliged to abandon our protectionist policy for freetrade. ‘Surely honorable members opposite .will not contend that, in order to become friends with nations with whom at the moment we may seem to be at cross purposes, we should do these things. The people of Australia are not prepared to make such sacrifices, and, that being so, we must be prepared to defend our country. This Government is giving effect to such a policy, not by incurring further indebtedness, but, for the most part, by expenditure from surplus revenue, while at the same time remitting millions in taxation and making substantial restorations to pensioners, and. grants to the States, which, during the regime of the Lyons Administration, have amounted to no less than £55,000,000.

Mr James:

– And how much did the Government spend on trips overseas?

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– Whatever the expenditure in that direction may have been, it has been more than recouped in view of the advantagesderived by Australia as the result of such missions. Most honorable members will admit that it is essential that a young country like Australia should be repre’sented at Imperial conferences. I point out that the Australian representation is the smallest at such conferences. What would the people of Australia say if the Prime Minister of this country refused to make himself available to represent them at such important gatherings in the interest of Australia? It is all very well at election time for some honorable members to bring forward pettifogging arguments of the nature suggested by the honorable member’s interjection, so that unthinking people might be influenced to forget the really valuable work which this Government has done. The object of such tactics is to curry favour with those electors who, through ignorance of the facts, readily overlook the fact that money spent on Australia’s representation at imperial conferences and trade delegations overseas is money well spent.

Mi-. SPEAKER. - The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr PERKINS:
Monaro · Eden

– After listening to the speeches of honorable members opposite one might naturally come to the conclusion that Australia was one of the most undesir able countries in the world in which to live, and probably one- of the most distressful on the globe to-day. I venture the opinion that, if it were possible to hold a competitive exhibition of nations, and a man could be found to judge the nations on their merits and demerits, summing up all the conditions, political and climatic, his verdict would place Australia, not at the bottom, but at the top of the list. In order to convince the world at large that Australia is a desirable land, one worth fighting for and one of which we can be justly proud, it is essential that the other side of the picture also be presented. Australia’s advantage over other countries from a climatic point of view is obvious. We know that the bulk of the population of the world lives in countries where it is either so cold for six or eight months of the year that children are not allowed even outside the door, or so hot and unhealthy that it is almost impossible for human beings to exist. It is with political conditions, however, that we are most concerned in this debate. What was the position in this country in this respect when the Lyons Government came into office six years ago? The volume of unemployment was high even in comparison with other countries suffering more severely from the depression; salaries, wages and social service allowances had been reduced, and things generally were in such a shocking state that at the first opportunity the electors turned the Scullin Government out of office. What is the picture to-day? Unemployment has been reduced from 30 per cent, to below 10 per cent. ; wages have increased and are still increasing; factories have been re-opened, and more people are employed in factories than at any time in our history, whilst the building trade has recovered so rapidly that construction figures are nearly equal to pre-depression levels. Furthermore, the man on the land is enjoying much more -prosperous times, although not so prosperous as all of us would like to see. When we compare Australia’s economic position to-day with that of other countries, we can well be proud of this recovery.

In supporting the amendment of” the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), honorable members opposite have concentrated on matters to which the Government, undoubtedly, will have to give further attention.. With all my praise of the Government’s record, I do not pretend that there is no room for further improvement. “We are not yet right out of the depression; we still have 10 per cent, unemployed, whilst pensions have not been fully restored. I agree with the arguments of honorable members opposite to the extent that these are matters which should be inquired into further. I suggest ‘that the time is ripe when old-age and invalid pensions should be fully restored. If that were done, however, it would bring more comfort to the recipients than to the Labour party, because I believe that the plea of honorable members opposite on behalf of the pensioners is simply political windowdressing in preparation for the next election. Furthermore, I agree with honorable members opposite that our old-age and invalid pensions legislation should be liberalized. Repeatedly, I have brought forward cases of just complaint on the part of pensioners which are representative of grievances of pensioners throughout Australia. For instance, I contend that Asiatics, after they have lived 20 or 30 years in this country and have become naturalized and paid taxes, should not be barred from the benefits of this legislation, but have every right, on reaching old-age, to be treated like the rest of the community. Then, again, many deaf and all but blind people and cripples find themselves unemployable,but, because the medical referees state they are capable -of earning a living, they are refused a pension. In a democratic country that is wrong. This legislation has not been improved since it was enacted many years ago, apart from in- creasing the amount of the pension. These people, I repeat, are entitled to greater consideration, despite the extra taxation that may be involved. Of what use is it to say to people who are practically deaf or blind that they are capable of earning a living? Who is going to employ them ? The Government will not do so, because they are not allowed to enter the Public Service; neither can they be employed by storekeepers or in domestic service. Nearly all avenues of employment are closed to them; but, because the medical referees will not, or cannot, certify that they are incapable of earning any money, they are refused a pension. Even if it could be argued that these people are capable of earning a few shillings, I suggest that the difference between their earnings, and the amount of the pension should be made up to them. If we refuse to do this we cannot claim to be a humanitarian or democratic people. The Government must give further attention to these matters.

In regard to improved housing conditions, honorable members opposite have struck another popular cry. We cannot have a contented democracy unless all of our people, if that is possible, are properly housed. I am sorry to have to admit that in some of our larger towns housing conditions are not as good as they should be. Qf course, we can point to other countries where conditions in this respect are much worse, but our neglect to attend to this matter is a blot on our reputation as a democratic nation. To that extent I agree with the arguments advanced by honorable members opposite, but the point of difference is this: They are not the Government; their pleas are political window-dressing, hypocrisy and humbug, because we know that if they were in office they could not carry their proposals into effect. The Scullin Government, for instance, tried to do something in this direction, but the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin), when he was Prime Minister, found that the first consideration of a government, which wished to be successful, must be sound finance. The right honorable gentleman was not so much responsible for this failure as certain men who wei-e behind him, whom the people of this country, and on the other side of the world, would not trust. They could not, therefore, obtain the necessary money.

Whilst I admit that the Government has already accomplished much, I suggest that it should enlarge upon its policy in this direction in the near future. The time is ripe when we can move further forward, but I point out that by carrying the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) we should be merely censuring this Government. Its adoption would not mean for one moment, that old-age pensions would be increased or housing conditions improved. Indeed it would have rather the opposite effect because if the Government were censured, and honorable members opposite assumed office, they would find that finance is the basis of democratic and sound government. Now that we are within a few months of an appeal to the electors, fear has been engendered in the minds of some people, by the loud boasts of our friends in Opposition, that soon they will be returned to power. The people most influenced by these loud’ cries are those who were about to engage in building operalions, those who had some plans for the future, as well as those responsible for the finance necessary to continue the development of this country. As the result, there has been a little falling off lately in the building trade in anticipation, possibly, of what might happen should their worst fears be realized.

Mr Rosevear:

– There will be a falling off in the number of Government supporters after October.

Mr PERKINS:

– These things are happening, because, as I said, some people have been frightened, and fear that something unfavorable to their interests might happen when the appeal is made to the electors. There is, however, no real reason to fear. We can, I feel sure, rely on the good sense of the intelligent electors to return this Government to power.

A few weeks ago we had what our friends in opposition are pleased to regard as a test by the election in the division of Gwydir. Their candidate was successful by a small majority. The history of that electorate shows that it has always been an uncertain quantity. On eight out of the eleven elections held, it has returned a Labour candidate. I think we may assume also that the recent by-election was decided upon domestic and personal issues rather than upon national questions, such as would be discussed in a general election. Hundreds of Gwydir electors did not vote. I know of eight people all supporters, of the .Government candidates, who were in my division on election day. Their votes were not recorded because it was not a general election. The recent test of strength there has done one good thing. It has aroused electors to the possibility of a return to power of a Labour government, and I feel sure that, in the forthcoming general election, the decision in Gwydir will be reversed. The attitude of our friends in Opposition, their hilarity over this fleeting success, reminds me of the story of the little boy, “ whistling aloud to bear his courage up,’’ while passing through a graveyard.

I have much respect for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), and also for his predecessor (Mr. Scullin). These two gentlemen have been trying to carry out a difficult chemical experiment - they have been endeavouring to heal the breach between the Federal and New South Wales State Labour parties. In other words, they have been essaying the impossible - the mixing of oil and water. Mr. Scullin first tried his hand at this experiment a few years ago, and found that, despite a vigorous shaking of the political mixture with a view to deceiving the electors that the Federal Labour and Lang Labour parties were one, immediately he put the bottle down the oil and water became separated, the oil, Lang Labour members, being on top, and the unstable water, Federal Labour members, underneath. Now the honorable member for Fremantle is repeating the experiment. For some weeks he has been shaking vigorously this political mixture in order to prove that where Mr. Scullin failed he is succeeding. But no one can doubt that before long he also will be compelled to admit failure to ensure unity in the Labour forces at present nominally under his control. He will of course appear before the electors, and in dulcet tones will endeavour to persuade them that at last Labour is united. Possibly, for the moment, the Lang forces will be suppressed, but I feel sure that despite all that the Leader of the Opposition may say, and despite all the promises which he may make, the intelligent electors will recognize that although the voice may be the voice of Jacob, the hand will be the hand of Esau.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- 1 support the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde). If carried it will be a direction to the Government -

  1. To increase the rate of invalid and old-age pensions to £1 per week and to liberalize the provisions of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act ;
  2. To take whatever steps are necessary to ensure progressive reductions in the number of working hours and increases in living standards commensurate with increased powers of production due to the mechanization and speeding-up of industry;and
  3. Togive effect to the Prime Minister’s pre-election promise made in 1934 that a great national housing scheme would be undertaken in conjunction with the States and local authorities.”

As regards the first paragraph of the amendment, I regret that I have not heard any words of commendation from ministerial supporters, because it merely asks the Government to do what the Ministry and Parliament in 1931 were pledged to do. It would not have been possible for the government of the day to reduce invalid and old-age pensions had it not’ been for the unanimous support of members of the United Australia party and Country parties, and the only honest course for this Government is, as the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Perkins) states, to restore these pensions to their former level. The honorable gentleman pledged himself to support action to restore pensions, not at some distant future date, but immediately the financial conditions of the country permitted this to be done. So did his leader, the present Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), and the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page), as well as every other member of those parties. Those who voted for the reduction of pensions and other social services gave a definite undertaking in 1931 that these would be the first restorations made.

The second paragraph of the amendment asks the Government to give effect to its policy for a progressive reduction of the working hours in industry. In 1935 it instructed its delegate to the International Labour Conference at Geneva to vote for a 40-hour week, and we were given to understand that the Government approved of this policy. If it is not sincere in this matter it stands condemned as a betrayer of the confidence of the people and it deceived the International Labour Conference.

The third paragraph of the amendment deals with the definite promise given by the Prime Minister in his policy speech in 1934 that the Government would inaugurate a housing scheme in conjunction with the State governments and local governing authorities. Thus, in the amendment there is nothing that is not in complete agreement with government policy enunciated by the Prime Minister in 1931 and in 1934. On these three points we shall have a test vote shortly.

We have met for the transaction of business in circumstances that are usually associated with this Parliament, when anti-Labour governments have been in power, that is to say the House meets seldom. We have been in session for seven days in the last six months. Honorable gentlemen supporting the Government will not advocate a 40-hour week for the workers in industry, but they consider that seven days’ work for themselves in six months is sufficient. I venture the opinion that, if the Government proposed to close Parliament immediately, its supporters would be in complete agreement. If things go as the Government intends they should, it is anticipated that we shall sit for a few more days and then adjourn for several months, so the sum total of our achievements for eight months of this year will be eleven sitting days. If honorable members opposite were not entirely subservient to the Government, they would not only vote for the amendment, but would also go further and refuse to grant Supply to a government that gives the representatives of the people so few opportunities to consider legislation for the welfare of the people.

We have been treated to the pomp and circumstances attending an official opening of the Parliament. We have seen the bright regalia of the perfect model of soldiers. We have seen the consular delegates paying their respects to the Parliament, and we have had a taste of the rich food provided by the Administration. All this is part of a great ceremonial opening; but I regret to state that the Governor-General’s opening Speech is vague, empty and meaningless to most of us.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. J. Bell).Order ! That subject has been disposed of by the House, and may not be again debated.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Having disposed of the Address-in-Reply to the GovernorGeneral’s Speech, what do we find? We find that the Government, without attempting to give effect to one item of its legislative programme as outlined in the Speech, asks for Supply with a view to sneaking again into recess for a few months.- It is unable to settle the details of its legislative programme, because of dissension in the ranks of the United Australia party and the United Country party.

We are given to understand that the Ministerial parties -in caucus have discussed certain legislation, but the Government is not in the position to state definitely whether it will be brought before the House this session or not. These, then, are the circumstances in which the government of the country is being carried on, and this is the manner in which the Government is staggering along the road to defeat at the approaching general elections.

On occasions the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) is pleased to bestow upon the House a few “ wise-cracks “ concerning the unity of the Labour Opposition. Some of the right honorable gentleman’s joke3 are funny, but rather ancient; those that are new are not a bit funny; I would be the last to deny him this little pleasure in his present unhappy circumstances. Perhaps. I will be permitted also to make a few observations on the subject of unity on the Go,vernment side of the House. I invite honorable members to survey the occupants of the ministerial back benches. There they will see a striking example of disunity. The benches are strewn with the wreckage of the Lyons Government and the present Lyons-Page Ministry. The first to meet the eye is the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis), who, it will be recalled, was sacrificed to the Country party, which, so we are told, puts principles before portfolios. We see also the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Perkins), another victim of the same principle. The third is the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. E. J. Harrison), who was in the Ministry for precisely three weeks - just long enough to become accustomed to’ wearing a silk hat and a frock coat.

As he shivers in the back benches his only consolation is that which was given to him by the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Gander), who suggested that one hour of crowded glory was worth a lifetime without a name. We see also the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart), - that nebulous advocate of a 40-hour working week in industry. We know why he is now a Ministerial supporter instead of a Minister. Immediately he began advocating a 40-hour week as a serious plank of government policy his position as Under Secretary for Re-employment became redundant. Finally, we see the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Hawker), a former’ Minister for Commerce. He left the Ministerial crew because his colleagues would not allow him to row the boat. These examples I commend to the right honorable the Attorney-General, who is so fond of commenting upon what he terms the disunity in the ranks of Labour. I have no doubt that the honorable member for Parramatta can read aright the signs of the times. I do not think that the honorable gentleman makes any secret of hi3 belief that the fate of this Government is sealed; but he is doing his best to persuade the people that, within the ranks of the Government parties, there is still hope for people with radical minds. He would have the people believe that there is within the ranks of the Government parties a radical element led by himself; on one occasion it was described as the “ brain trust “ of the Government parties. This radical element is promising the people that if the Government is returned it will not continue along the reactionary path which it has followed during the last five years, because it will be forced to mend its ways and bring into operation some much-needed social legislation. In order to convince the public that there is indeed a radical element in the ranks of the Government, the honorable member for Parramatta proposed to challenge the honorable member for Warringah (Sir Archdale Parkhill) to mortal political combat in the’ Warringah electorate. There was much talk in the press of the forthcoming struggle between the radical and reactionary elements in the ranks of the Government, and the people were beginning to conjure up in their minds visions of these two- knights of the Empire, in gilded armour and on fiery steeds, fighting to the death in some out of the way place in the Warringah electorate. But the whole thing has now been declared off, and it is rumoured that the point at issue is to he settled in another way ; instead of fighting in gilded armour with swords and battle-axes, these gentlemen will fight to a finish on Manly Beach with bladders on a stick. The weapons have been changed in order that the blows will be lighter, and the venue so that the falls will not be so hard.

Here is a government which professes that it still enjoys the confidence of the people, yet within the last six months it has been definitely rebuffed by the people on two occasions. There was the referendum, on which the Country party staked its existence. The leader of that party definitely declared that if the referendum were not carried, and marketing schemes were not put into operation, no more could be done by the Government for the primary producers, and chaos would ensue in the primary industries. That was the long-range policy of rural rehabilitation, of which we have heard so much from the Country party. That was the policy on which that party asked the people of Australia to tax their foodstuffs in order that overseas countries might be provided with a cheap menu. lt told the people definitely that its proposal was vital to the very existence of the primary producers of this country, despite which, in- every State of the Commonwealth the people refused in an overwhelming manner to give the desired powers. If Ave are to believe the statement of the leader of the Country party, which has always claimed that it places principles before portfolios, that nothing more can be done, and that our primary industries are doomed to fall into a state of chaos, why is that party still hanging on to office? Why does it not make room for another party which is prepared to shoulder the responsibility? It .frankly confessed that it could not carry on without an alteration of the Constitution.

The Country party talks about its concern for the primary producers. Let me read a statement that has been made by the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. R. Green), a member of that party who is at present in Great Britain, lt reads - “ Why ia it almost impossible to buy goods marked ‘Australian’ in England?” asked Mr. Roland Green, M.H.R., of the Sun to-day. Mr. Green, .who will take up the matter with Mr. Bruce, says that Australian butter, meat, eggs and wine are invariably sold as “ Empire “ products, while produce from New Zealand and other parts of the Empire sails under its own colours. “I have found this 3ame thing all over England, and cannot understand it,” lie said. “The quality of the Australian article is not the reason, because I am told that the few who know invariably ask for Australian, but cannot be sure of getting it.” Mr. Green said that butter marked “Empire” is not always as good, as it should be, and he is sure that margarine is added after the butter reaches England.

When I questioned the leader of the Country party, who, incidentally, is Minister for Commerce, and on many occasions has said that the money spent on joy-rides overseas Ava 3 well spent, because of the good work done on behalf of primary producers in the sale of their products, his reply was as follows: -

With regard to the use of the word “ Empire “, it is a matter entirely for those who own those products to use their own discretion. With regard to adulteration, that is definitely a matter outside our own control. The bulk of the efforts of the Government has been designed to secure the adoption of the best business practices, so that Australian butter will be sold at the best possible prices in Britain.

The right honorable gentleman, who has spent thousands of pounds on the trips he and his colleagues have made overseas, and who has claimed that, as a result, he has secured wonderful contracts for the sale of butter, there frankly confessed that the bulk of the efforts of the Government have been de signed to secure the adoption of the best business practices; and the best business practices, according to the honorable member for Richmond, who is a member of the Country party, involve the branding of Australian butter “ Empire “ and the adulteration of that butter with margarine. The right honorable gentleman does not deny that this adulteration is practised. He says that the bulk of the efforts pf the Government have been designed to secure the adoption of the best business practices so that Australian butler will be sold in England at the best possible prices; yet, notwithstanding all the efforts of the Government, an avenue lias not been found through which Australian butter can reach the people of Great Britain without passing through ihe hands of food adulterators overseas, who sell the adulterated product at a figure which is below the real market value; and the lower the price falls in Great Britain the higher is the price which the Australian people have to pay for their requirements. This adulteration and juggling with the market are going on in spite of the fact that the efforts of the Government have been along the lines of adopting the best business practices.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– The honorable member’s argument is all wrong.

Mr McClelland:

– - The price of butter in Australia has not altered for years.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Whether my argument is wrong or not, let me tell the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) that during the referendum campaign the Norco Butter Company, which he has so often praised, placed its butter in wrappers on which was printed the statement that if the referendum were not carried Australian butter would be adulterated, and would deteriorate. I invite the honorable member who so freely takes up the cudgels on behalf of that company, to inquire as 10 whether it has carried out its threat, :ind, like the adulterators of food overseas, is adulterating Australian butter and charging ls. 6d. per lb. retail for it.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– It dare not do

SO.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– What is the history of the referendum campaign? Everybody knows that the United Aus: tralia party did not put its forces into the fight for the carrying of the referendum, but, on the contrary, abandoned the Country party. Later, when the Deputy Leader of the Government said that the Gwydir by-election was a real test of strength between the Government and the Opposition, the Country party was again left to its own resources by its colleagues in the United Australia party. Yet honorable members opposite have the effron tery to allege to-day that there is disunity in the ranks of the Labour party! There are warring factions, not only in each section of the Government, but also between the two sections, warring factions that are so bitter that they would not co-operate to have the referendum carried in the country, although they combined to pass the measures in this House. What happened, in the referendum campaign was repeated in (he Gwydir byelection - the United Australia party abandoned the Country party and left it to its own resources.

The Attorney General has affirmed that the success which the Labour party has enjoyed has led to its becoming intoxicated. The only observation that I wish to make is that if success such as the Labour party has enjoyed leads to intoxication, the Government party will be total abstainers for the rest of their natural lives.

The first subject mentioned in the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is that of pensions. The reference of one honorable member to-night to the fact that the Scullin Government was responsible for the reduction of pensions, and his claim that only anti-Labour governments have been responsible for increases of pensions, is rather contemptible, seeing that the assistance of the party to which he belongs was indispensable to the passage of the legislation which provided for those reductions, as well as the reductions that were made in the wages and salaries of public servants and every other reduction effected under the Premiers plan in 1931. It is late in the day for those who were a party to those reductions to reproach the Scullin Government because it happened to be in power at that particular time. That is the first act of repudiation, collectively and individually, by honorable members opposite. Their second act of gross repudiation relates to the definite pledge which the leaders of both the Country party and the United Australia party gave in 1931, that that which had been taken would be restored immediately the Government was able to balance its budget. One after another, honorable members opposite have referred to the millions of pounds by which taxation has been reduced by the present Government. There was no bargaining in relation to taxation reductions in 1931. Members of the United Australia party and the United Country party did not say then: “ We will restore pensions after we have reduced taxation.” No; they said that their hearts bled for the pensioners and public servants, whose income would be compulsorily reduced, and they promised that full restoration w.ould be made to them immediately the budget was balanced. During the last five years considerable reductions of taxation have been made, and many of those who have benefited made no sacrifice at all during the financial crisis; I refer particularly to the reductions of company taxation. The Government claims that it has been responsible for the liberalization of the pension laws; but what are the facts? Its members supported the reduction of pensions in 1931. In the following year, the Lyons Government further reduced pensions to 15s. a week in cases in which pensioners had any income at all, and it also brought into operation the property clauses of the act, under which it proposed to seize the property of pensioners at death in order to recoup the Government for the amounts paid during the lifetime of the pensioners. When, however, it found that the cost of collecting revenue from these sources was greater than the proceeds, and, more particularly, when it realized that public opinion was against its “body-snatching” policy, it abolished the property provisions of the act. Then it had the audacity to tell the people of Australia that it had liberalized the act! It had only taken out of the act the iniquitious sections that it had inserted. Having reduced the pension to 15s. a week, the Government later restored it to 17s. 6d. a week. Again, it claimed to have liberalized the act, whereas, in fact, it only gave back to the pensioners what it had taken from them. Since then two further increases - one of 6d. and one of ls. a week - have been made. Every time that a Government supporter boasts of the millions of pounds by which taxation, payable by the wealthy classes of the community, has. been reduced, he condemns himself and his party for its repudiation of the claims of the poorest sections of the community.

The honorable member for Parramatta has been described in the press as a rebel, because he proposes to bring about a radical change of mind among supporters of the Government in regard to national insurance, and because he is allegedly pioneering a 40-hour week in industry. If the honorable member is a rebel, then Mr. Stevens, the Premier of New South Wales, is a rebel also, because both men have the same policy with regard to social services. Recently, I read a speech which the honorable member for Parramatta made to his electorate council, the body to which he looks for selection as a candidate for the Parramatta electorate. He did not say anything in that speech about the 40-hour week, but he played up to his hearers when he referred to national insurance, and spoke of the invalid and old-age pensioners. But what was the burden of his song? He referred to the enormous sum of money expended out of revenue on invalid and old-age pensions, and stated that the burden was increasing. He was concerned that £14,000,000 had to be found each year to pay these pensions. He was concerned chiefly because that money came out of revenue obtained by taxing his wealthy friends. He wanted the whole system changed, and advocated a contributory system, under which every man, from the day that he started work until he was no longer of use in the industries in the country would contribute, out of his wages, towards a fund from which he would be paid a pension in his declining years. For some time there has been in operation in New South Wales a scheme of social services, including child endowment. The fund from which child endowment was paid was provided from a tax paid by the employers on their wage bill. The Stevens Government abolished the tax . which provided the fund from which child endowment was paid, and changed the name of the Unemployment Relief Tax Act, so that child endowment is now paid out of a special income tax, which is in reality a wages tax. In other words, it transferred to the shoulders of the employees the burden of providing for child endowment and other social services which previously was borne by the employers. That ia precisely the policy of the honorable member for Parramatta. He is not concorned as to the ability of the Government to pay these pensions out of revenue; but he is concerned that that revenue is derived from taxes payable by his wealthy friends. The honorable member will achieve his desire if, by means of a contributory national insurance scheme, the burden is transferred from the wealthy taxpayers to the workers in industry. His concern is not for the pensioner, but for the people out of whose pockets the taxation to pay the pension is now paid.

The Opposition is not asking the Government to break any new ground at all when it asks for the’ introduction of a 40-hour working week. It merely asks honorable members opposite to join with it in instructing the Government to bring about a reduction of the hours of work in industry. I shall not emphasize the necessity for a reduction of working hours, because the need is appreciated by all sections of the community. The Go;vernment sent the honorable member for Parramatta to Geneva, and instructed him. to vote for a 40-hour week. The honorable member spoke in favour of a 40-hour week, and he also voted for it. When he returned to Australia,’ the Government was asked what it intended to do in the matter. Since it had instructed its delegate to vote for the reduction the Government was in a quandary. But instead of carrying out its professed policy, il set up a tribunal consisting of seventeen people - a mass meeting so unwieldy as to preclude any possibility of agreement. The tribunal was presided over by a judge of the Arbitration Court who recently ‘said that no working man with four children,in his family has any right to possess a radio receiving set. When the Opposition challenged the Government on this subject by moving a censure motion,, a number of honorable members opposite said that, although they 1’uvoured a working week of 40 hours, they were not prepared to support a motion of censure on the Government. In order to free them from embarrassment, the motion was framed differently, so that those honorable members who really believed in a 40-hour week could vote for it without censuring the Government. Then, however, they declared that they were not in favour of a 40-hour week, pleading as their reason that it was not constitutionally possible to bring about the reduction of working hours. It is constitutionally possible to bring about a working week of 40 hours under the treaty-making powers vested in the Government by the Constitution. If the Government really believes that it is not constitutionally possible to inaugurate a working week of 40-hours by action taken in this Parliament, then it deceived not only the people of Australia in 1935, but also other nations of the world when it instructed its delegate to speak in favour of, and to vote for, a 4!0-hour week. [Leave to continue given.’] What is the latest attitude of the Government on this subject? It says now that it has authorized Australia’s delegate to the present International Labour Conference at Geneva to vote for the adoption of the proposed draft convention applying the principle of the 40-hour week to certain industries. The Government did that before, when the honorable member foi’ Parramatta was its delegate to Geneva. On this occasion, however, the delegate is instructed to vote for the principle of a 40-hour week in certain industries, provided that, after explaining the constitutional position of the Commonwealth and the States in relation to fixing the hours of work, he indicates that the Commonwealth makes it a condition of its adherence to such conventions that tho principal countries engaged in the industries concerned shall also adhere to it. The delegate is to advocate and to vote for a 40-hour week; but he is to inform the other delegates that it is not constitutionally possible for Australia to adopt it, and that, in any case, Australia will not adopt the convention unless it is adopted first by every other country. What possibility is there of arriving at a satisfactory agreement in those circumstances? Australia used to pride itself that, in the matter of working conditions in industry, it was in the vanguard.

Mr Gander:

– Now it is in the guard’s van.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– The .Government is waiting for every other country to adopt the 40-hour week before it makes any change. I have said sufficient to show how vague is the policy of the advisers of the Governor-General on the matter.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– And of the Opposition also.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Now, what are the views of the Governor-General’s exadvisers? The honorable member for Henty now sits among the Ministerial wreckage on the back bench, and says: “Let us have done with the 40-hour week proposal; it could not be put into operation, and even if it could, it would result in chaos “. He sits cheek by jowl with the honorable member for Parramatta, “who said that the salvation of the unemployed is a 40-hour week. One ex-Minister says that a 40-hour week will lead to chaos and another says something entirely opposite !

Reference has been made during this debate to the defence policy pf the Labour party. It is remarkable that when the subject of defence was being debated, when the Estimates were under consideration last year, the Minister for Defence (Sir Archdale Parkhill) read extensively from the printed statement of Labour’s defence policy which was formulated at the last Federal Labour Convention in Adelaide. Having done so, he said that Labour’s policy was practically the same as that of the Government. Yet, to-day, the smaller fry among the Government party say that Labour has no defence policy. We have been invited by the honorable member for Henty and the honorable ‘ member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) to declare our defence policy. Such a declaration will be made when we consider that it should be made. In the meantime, I direct the attention of honorable members to the statement made last week by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), which I heartily endorse, that Labour “ will neither be a police nor salvage corps in the perpetual disorders of Europe “. That is our position. We shall reserve any further declarations on this subject until after we have heard the report of the Government’s delegates to the Imperial Conference. We know very little at present about what was said and done at that conference by our delegates. It is true that the Prime Minister of Australia (Mr. Lyons) proposed a Pacific Pact which very few people took any notice of, and in respect of which he was not too serious himself. I believe that his idea was to get the Prime Minister of Canada to commit himself to some sort of a security pact in order that he might later get him to commit himself to a more comprehensive pact at the Imperial Conference. Apart from that, we have had very little information about the doings of our overseas delegates except that a press report informed us that on one notable occasion the Prime Minister of Australia made a mess of things by dropping his sword, while glowing headlines announced a little later that he had had his hair cut. Those items do not concern us very much. What concerns us is the extent to which Australia was committed in various ways at the Imperial Conference. So far, the members of the Government and also its supporters have been silent on this important subject. We are prepared to suspend judgment upon it until the full report is submitted to Parliament. The honorable member for Henty and the honorable member for Macquarie may rest assured, however, that in ‘ due course before the next election, and after the Prime Minister has made his report, Labour’s defence policy will be announced. We shall let the people know clearly where we stand. I do not propose to waste my time at this stage in trying to convert either of the honorable members to whom I have referred, for it is obvious that they are not open to conviction. The honorable member for Macquarie need not worry himself about our defence policy, however, for after the next election he will not be here to express an opinion upon it. This afternoon the honorable gentleman asked the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), in his absence, a series of questions. I would remind the honorable member for. Macquarie that loyalty to Australia is not the close preserve of any party or persons in the House. On almost every occasion when the honorable member delivers an address in this House he preaches the virtues of the Empire, and parades his own .personal loyalty. To thinking people, the fact that he protests his loyalty so much and so frequently is sufficient to bring it under suspicion.

As the honorable member saw fit to ask the Leader of the Opposition a series of questions, I shall now ask him -

  1. Is he opposed to increasing the invalid and old-age pension to £1 a week and liberalizingthe provisions of the pensions law?
  2. Is he opposed to the Government taking whatever steps may be necessary to ensure progressive reductions in the number of working hours, and to increase the standard of living commensurate with increases in the volume of production due to the mechanization and speeding-up of industry?
  3. Is he opposed to the Prime Minister giv ing effect to the declaration in his last policy speech that he was in favour of adopting a comprehensive housing scheme in conjunction with State and municipal authorities?
Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– Those are easy to answer.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– The honorable member will very shortly have an opportunity to show, not only to honorable members, but also to his constituency, where he stands on these important subjects. If he votes against the amendment his constituents will draw their own conclusions and so shall we.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.- I join with other honorable members of the Opposition in supporting the amendment of the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Forde). There is little doubt, however, that despite the pretence of sincerity of supporters of the Government, those voting in favour of the amendment will be confined to the members of the Opposition. Nevertheless, an opportunity is extended to honorable members opposite who believe in an increase of the oldage pension rate to £ 1 a week to show the people where they stand. Even if within the next few months an increase of the pension rate to £1 be made, the electors will realize that the action of the Government will be merely an election gesture intended to deceive people into voting back to power the worst Government that has ever disgraced the Treasury bench in the Commonwealth Parliament.

This Parliament has been in recess for approximately six months. If it had not been for a crisis that arose shortly after the adjournment early last December, which caused an unexpected reas sembly of the Parliament, it would have been in recess for almost seven months. But for the requirement of the Constitution that a Supply bill must be passed to tide over the period from the 30th June until the passing of the Budget, it is difficult to say when the Government would have brought honorable members together again. So far as I can see, it would only have been galvanized into action by the provision of the Constitution that Parliament must meet at least once in every twelve months. With a government such as Ave have now in office, it is possible for us to realize the wisdom of that constitutional requirement. The AttorneyGeneral (Mr. Menzies) has had quite a lot to say about the dangers of a dictatorship in Australia. The action of this Government in keeping Parliament in recess for such long periods is more likely than anything else to increase the danger of a dictatorship in Australia. I believe that Parliament should meet for definite periods on regular days every week, that honorable members should be informed of the business to be presented to them, and that day sittings should be the practice. The present procedure, unfortunately, is for Parliament to sit half a day for half a week for less than half the months of the year. That is a tragic position for a national parliament.

In the Speech of His Excellency the Governor-General a considerable programme of legislation was foreshadowed, but no honorable member of this Parliament is so unlearned in political procedure as to be deceived- into thinking that one per cent. of that legislation will be passed before Parliament goes into recess again at the end of this week, or that 10 per cent. of it is likely to be passed before the next general election. Many of the items listed in the GovernorGeneral’s Speech have been put there without the slightest intention of effective action being taken. In fact, no progress is likely to be made in connexion with some of the items until the change of government occurs which seems to be very likely in the near future.

Already we can see that the Government proposes to rely once again upon appeals in regard to the Empire, defence and patriotism to carry it throughthe election. Thi3 reminds one of Dr. Johnson’s observation that “ patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” Members of the Government will doubtless inform the electors that it is not possible to find outside the United Australia party and the Country party, a government which will be capable of implementing an effective defence policy for Australia. Yet this Government has shown itself incapable of arresting even two Japanese luggers without the assistance of the arrested luggers in towing the arresting vessel to shore! That is a matter with which I shall deal at greater length later.

The sins of omission and commission that may be laid at the door of this Government make such a lengthy list that it would take many hours to recite them. It is my intention this evening therefore to concentrate on one or two of the more ludicrous incidents which have shamed the career of this Government. For that reason I shall not deal at any length with the entire absence from the Government’s programme of any effective measures for reemployment, or with the claim that government policy has been responsible for the improved employment position in Australia. The fact of the matter, of course, is that the greatest improvements have occurred in those States where Labour’s policy is being implemented - a policy, I may say, which is in direct contrast to that of this Government. It is only lately that economists in Australia and elsewhere have begun to realize the need for spending money to provide work, but even in the depth of the depression the Labour party advanced that policy, which has so tardily been adopted by economists and anti-Labour governments.

Because of the lack of time I shall not deal at length with the- sorry figure that the Government cut in its trade dispute with Japan. Persons expert in such matters have estimated, after computing the number of bales of wool that might have been exported from Australia to Japan and comparing it with the number of bales bought by Japan from foreign countries, that the Australian wool-growers lost about £7,000,000 through the Government’s foolish policy-

Mr Nock:

– No one could prove anything of the kind.

Mr BAKER:

– The calculation to which I refer was published in the Sydney ‘ Bulletin and the article was reprinted in the West Australian Wheatgrower. The writer of that article was in a better position to express truthful, and unbiassed opinion on the subject than the gentlemen who represent the Country party in this Parliament.

Another subject which the limitation of time prevents me from dealing with at any length is the resumption by this Government of overseas borrowing. This has been done secretly like a good many other things for which this Government has been responsible. Stealthily it does these things, and even when Parliament is occasionally called together, no time is available for honorable members to debate its actions. Even when we ask questions, as little information as can be vouchsafed is given, since the Commonwealth Government gives the Parliament and the people only that information that it is forced to give. Regarding this stealthy resumption of overseas borrowing, it appears that recently £2,000,000 was borrowed in London, nominally on behalf of the Sydney Water and Sewerage Board, but in reality under the auspices of the Government of New South Wale3, and, of all times, they cast the loan upon the market at the very time when the Commonwealth Government, through the High Commissioner, Mr. Bruce, decided to bring about the conversion of a loan of about £12,000,000. Or it may have been this way: The High Commissioner decided that he had better get the conversion over or every shire council in New South Wales would also be raising money on the London market. Bad as the time was to attempt a conversion, Mr. Bruce probably thought that it would be worse if action were delayed. Yet the Federal Treasurer (Mr. Casey) is reported to have said that he approved of the resumption of overseas borrowing. No wonder the conversion loan was a sorry failure.

The Government is deserving of stricture for- its actions in placing in safe positions those of its supporters who represent dangerous electorates. Before the last election, the then member for Werriwa (Mr. McNicoll), whose seat waa iti danger, was appointed Administrator of New Guinea, and, recently, Mr.

Abbott, who appeared certain to lose the Gwydir seat at the forthcoming election, was appointed Administrator of the Northern Territory. Now it is suggested that the sole purpose of the revival of the Inter-State Commission, after having been allowed to lapse for twenty years on the ground that it was of no value to the community, is to provide a safe position for either the Prime Minis,ter (Mr. Lyons) or the Minister for External Affairs (Senator Pearce), both of whom are in serious danger of losing their present positions at the coming election. Unfortunately for Government supporters, it appears that so many catastrophes will take place at that election that there is no possibility of creating sufficient positions for those who will be defeated. We should need an unlimited number of commissions, territory administrations, or other suitable positions to satisfy the needs of those Government supporters whose seats are now in jeopardy.

The Attorney-General said that members of the Opposition were elated because at last they had had a victory. At least as far . as Queensland is concerned, lt is not unusual for the Australian Labour party to experience victory. Except for three years out of the last 22, there have been Labour administrations in Queensland. At the present time in Queensland, the organization of the Commonwealth ministerial parties is in process of rebuilding. A United Australian party is being formed, and about eighteen months ago the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Hunter) formed a Country party of his own. It will be seen, therefore, that in Queensland, at any rate, Labour is accustomed to success at elections, and the Labour party is not vociferously referring to the Gwydir result because it is unused to success. Its elation is due to the fact that Mr. .Scully recorded an increase of 4 per cent, in his majority over the majority of the previous Labour member for that constituency, Mr. Cunningham, which was recorded’ at the time when the Scullin Government was returned to power with the greatest majority ever secured by a single party in the House of Representatives. The electorate of Gwydir, except for one or two slight alterations, is the same now as it was when Mr. Scullin was returned to power. The increased majority recorded by Mr. Scully is one reason why we look for success at the forthcoming election. Another reason - and this is the most important reason - is that if a government makes itself ludicrous, the electors laugh it out of. office. This Government has been responsible for more humorous incidents than any other government since federation, and it will receive its reward for its absurdities at the election. Things that make a government look ridiculous count more with the electors than things which really matter. For one instance of the ludicrous actions of this Government we have to look to the comedy of the Larrakia. Through the Larrakia incident, the most Gilbertian situation in the history of this country, the Government has made Australia a laughing stock in the eyes of the world. This tragi-comedy is the fault of a government which claims to know how to defend Australia, and how to build the Navy necessary to protect this great country, but whose actions are causing other nations to regard Australia in such a light that they feel that there would never be any risk of a government of this kind defending Australia in any way.

It is difficult to ascertain the truth about the Larrakia. The Government lacks sufficient candour to give any information beyond that which it is forced to give. The Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson), when asked to lay on the table the papers concerning the Larrakia, refused to do so. For his refusal there can be only one explanation, and. that is that if these papers were tabled the facts would be given a face even worse than they appear to bear from the press reports. Nevertheless, whilst it is impossible to get any information from the Minister, it seems possible to get fairly close to the truth from other sources. -It appears that the Larrakia, when engaged on its usual patrol work, arrested the mother ship, the New Guinea Maru, and a fleet of about 50 Japanese vessels. As soon as the New Guinea Maru had been arrested, the Larrakia’s wireless equipment went out of action. The arrested mother ship was then approached with a request to use its wireless, but it was found that it also was out of action.

There is little reason to doubt that the men on the New Guinea Maru themselves disabled it; they were not willing to assist the people who had arrested them. When the patrol boat began to escort the arrested vessel back to port, the starboard engine of the vessel became disabled, and shortly afterwards the propeller on the port engine sheered off. Then arose the ludicrous situation of the arrested lugger having to tow the arresting craft. Could the humiliation of the men in charge of the Larrakia, or of the Australian nation itself exceed that? It would be difficult to contemplate a greater humiliation of this country than occurred on that occasion. Once the journey back was started, it was discovered that as the Larrakia had broken down in so many ways, it was necessary for it to proceed through the inner channel, and, as the 250-ton New Guinea Maru had too much draught for that channel, it had to be released. Then comes the next interesting incident in that tragicomedy. No news had been heard at Darwin from the Larrakia for 36 hours, and the Commonwealth authorities endeavoured to communicate with the crew. As usual, there were no aeroplanes available within 1,000 miles of where they were needed. The authorities, therefore, beseeched “ the Flying Doctor “, Dr. Fenton, the man whom they had pursued with writs all over Australia, the man whose licence they had suspended and threatened to cancel because he flew out of the country to see his sick mother, to fly to sea in order to ascertain if the patrol boat was safe. Dr. Fenton, who could easily have refused to undertake this service, took the Australian attitude, and as men’s lives were possibly in danger, he immediately flew out in his own aeroplane, the machine which was donated ‘to him by the Australian people. This Gilbertian Government promised last year that it would give Dr. Fenton an aeroplane, but it has not yet kept its word. Dr. Fenton was able to allay all fears as to the safety of the Larrakia by reporting on his return that it and other vessels were returning to port. As I have stated, the Larrakia had to release the mother ship, but it brought two smaller vessels into Port Darwin.

The previous history of the Larrakia is also interesting. It has been stated, and not disproved, that it was used formerly for patrol work in the River Thames; yet, to-day, it is charged with the patrol of 60.0 miles of open sea. This Government, so well able to decide these things, selected the Larrakia as the ideal boat for the work on which it is now engaged, but when it first arrived at Port Darwin, spick and span, and supposedly ready for service, and was tied to the wharf with a 6-ft. chain, it immediately sank. When recovered, it was found that the automatic baling device was upside down, and that instead of baling water out, it was siphoning it in. Naturally, the vessel sank, and subsequently it had to be repaired. When it went on its first trial, engine trouble was experienced, and I understand that it had to be towed back. It is said that the crew could not sleep on the boat, so I imagine that when darkness overtook them, no matter where they happened to be, a return had to be made to Darwin. Apparently, only a man of small physique could go around the engines. The engineer was too big for the job, and he had to be left behind on the latest cruise.

A year or eighteen months ago the Government was told that its second boat, the Rooganah, would be unsuitable for the work which it was expected to do. We are told that it was formerly a private fishing yacht, but it now has to take to the open sea to arrest offenders, and, if necessary, to fight. No doubt this fiasco has caused considerable amusement throughout the world, as it has among Australians, but it is a serious matter. I am criticizing, not the officers and crew of the Larrakia, but the most inefficient and incompetent Government Australia has ever had. The captain and crew of five men set out to arrest offenders. They found a mother ship of between 200 and 250 tons, which, I understand, carried 50 naval men. There were at least 50 other vessels - the number has even been stated as high as 78 - following the mother ship. An Australian captain with five men was expected to bring these vessels into port!

Only recently an effort was made by one of the Dutch patrol boats to arrest some Japanese poachers, who turned on the patrol boat and threw its native policemen overboard. By good luck another vessel arrived and arrested the poachers. Immediately afterwards it was heard that the Japanese vessel “was again poaching at Noumea, and the1 Dutch Government arranged to have three of the men who had been on the Japanese lugger extradited. They passed through Sydney recently on their way to Batavia, where they will be tried for attempted murder. Yet the Commonwealth Government sends its patrol officers out in a boat that is not fit to venture upon the open sea. Why is not a sloop or some other naval vessel allowed to do this work? This Government boasts about its policy of defence and according to a paragraph which appeared in the Canberra Times recently - inspired, perhaps, by the Government, and certainly displaying its ineptitude - the Australian fleet is shortly to undertake the longest and most daring cruise in its history. It seems that one ship is to sail all the way to the Mandated Territory! The Sydney is to circumnavigate Australia, and the Canberra, the most venturesome of all, is to visit Singapore and Sourabaya. It is an insult to our seamen to blazon this trip forth as a daring one. It seems that the most urgent thing for the Navy to do is to be in Brisbane for the Brisbane Exhibition, in Sydney at the time of the Royal Show, and in Melbourne when the Melbourne Cup is run. I suggest that the vessels of the Australian squadron should be allowed to do their job and patrol our shores. The Government would not send half a dozen men in a derelict dinghy to arrest poachers on the open sea. Yet this is the sort of conduct we may expect from this comic-opera government.

The Attorney-General signified his entry into this Parliament by the Griffin and Kisch cases. Shortly afterwards we had the Freer case, in which the Minister for the Interior took a leading part. Many unproved statements were issued by the Minister. Three times the case of Mrs. Freer was considered, and her application for permission to land in Australia was rejected. Country paTty Ministers threatened to resign if this lady was allowed to land, but eventually the ban was lifted, the reason given being merely that her solicitor had made representations on her behalf and that she had resided in New Zealand for six months. Apparently New Zealand, despite its

Labour government, is the new purging centre for prohibited immigrants. Noresignations from the Lyons Government have occurred as a result of the action taken. Once again we see that the Country party has placed, not principles before portfolios, but portfolios before principles.

Then we had the case of a Chinese gentleman. He had been smuggled into this country, and was allowed to remain here, although several of his confreres were deported. The reason given for the exceptional treatment of the Chinese was that he had been liberal to all good causes and charitable - to poor people whom he supplied with vegetables free of cost! We have been told many times of the great prosperity now being enjoyed in Australia due to the present Government, which adopts a policy of allowing Chinese to remain in this country to feed our poor with free vegetables. Presumably the Customs Department will not object to migrants from foreign countries if they are charitably inclined and dole out sixpences and shillings to the poor.

Last year, 49,491 British people arrived in Australia, and the only person who was subjected to the dictation test was Mrs. Freer. Will the Minister for the Interior explain why 2,000 coloured persons were admitted last year without a dictation test? I am not referring to Southern Europeans. The 2,000 coloured persons included American negroes, half-a-dozen Filipinos, nearly a hundred Koepangers, 84 Malays, more than 800 Chinese, and 448 Japanese. The manner in which our immigration policy has been administered generally has imperilled our international relations. One of the reasons seems to be that too many departments are concerned in the matter. Apparently the tariff policy adopted with regard to Japan was determined by the Customs Department, without consulting the External Affairs Branch of the Prime Minister’s Department. The Department of the Interior and the Investigation Branch of the Attorney-General’s Department, are also interested in this subject.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Question - That the words proposed to be omitted (Mr. Forde’s amendment) stand part of the question - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.)

AYES: 30

NOES: 20

Majority . . . . 10

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

In Committee of Ways and Means:

Mr MENZIES:
Acting Treasurer · Kooyong · UAP

– I move -

That therebe granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year 1937-38 a sum not exceeding £5,776,890.

This legislation is by way of preliminary to a bill to grant this amount of supply, and it is designed to carry on the services of the Commonwealth for the first two months of the coming financial year. The clauses and schedule of the bill have been framed in accordance with the practice adopted in past years. The amount which the committee is asked to appropriate from revenue is £5,776,890, which includes the following sums for ordinary services : -

Provision is made in this bill only for the amount which is estimated to be sufficient to carry on the essential services on the basis of the appropriations passed by the Parliament for the present year, 1936-37. The items making up this total represent approximately one-sixth of those appropriations, except in a few cases where the expenditure is heavy in the early months of the financial year.

In accordance with the cost of living provisions of the Public Service and other regulations, the salaries of Commonwealth employees will be increased from the 1st July,. 1937, the maximum increase being £6 per annum, in the case of an adult male officer. This increase will involve an annual expenditure of approximately £200,000 per annum.

The usual provisions are made in the bill for “ Refunds of Revenue “ and “ Advance to the Treasurer “, the amounts being £350,000 and £1,500,000 respectively. This latter amount is mainly required to carry on uncompleted works in progress at the 30th June, 1937, and to cover unforeseen and miscellaneous expenditure. It will also permit a continuation of special grants to South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania. The special grants to the States mentioned will be continued on the same basis as the grants approved by Parliament for -the present financial year, pending the receipt of the report of the Commonwealth Grants Commission and the subsequent introduction of new bills, when any necessary adjustments will be made.

No provision is made for any new expenditure or for any departure from existing policy.

The present time appears to be an appropriate occasion to furnish to honorable members an indication of the possible results of the present financial year. The Consolidated Revenue Fund for the eleven months ended the 31st May, discloses that, during that period, receipts have exceeded expenditure by £1,800,000. This is largely due to the lag in expenditure, and cannot be taken as indicating the likelihood of a surplus of that magnitude when the year closes. Receipts for the full year from indirect taxation, that is, customs, excise and sales tax, are expected closely to approximate the budget estimate. Income tax revenue will exceed the estimate, and other heads of revenue will be practically normal. Unforeseen expenditure includes £150,000 by way of grants to the States in December last to provide assistance to persons out of employment, and £100,000 to cover the cost of the recent referenda.

The Commonwealth estimates of expenditure out of loan for the current year included an amount of £600,000 for telephone exchange services. This amount has been expended, but, in view of the difficulty of raising loan money for public works, particularly in May and November of last year, the Government has decided to provide £300,000 of this expenditure from the revenue account, leaving only £300,000 charged to the loan account for this purpose. I may say that that was done pursuant to an undertaking which was given by the Commonwealth to the Loan Council in view of the reduced loan raisings, to which I have referred. The necessary adjustment of the appropriations will be made when supplementary estimates of expenditure from revenue are introduced at a later date. Notwithstanding these unforeseen items and our heavy commitments in the current month, I am glad to give the assurance that the result of .the year in the Consolidated Revenue Fund will be satisfactory. I hope to be in a position within a few days after the 30th June to make available to honorable members a statement setting out in some detail the revenue and expenditure of the year. I am confident that the returns will then disclose a surplus.

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

.- In ordinary circumstances, a Supply Bill is designed to cover a period or to fill a gap ; but on this occasion it precedes the presentation of the budget, and it affords to honorable members an opportunity to put forward their views in support of certain new expenditure or the maintenance of present expenditure before the Government has finalized the budget. I, therefore, take this opportunity to say a few words on behalf of an institution which has been established in Canberra for twelve years, and which has been doing its good work so quietly and diligently that some honorable members may not be cognizant of it, and even the Government may not be impressed with it to the extent that I hope it will be. I refer to the Australian Forestry School. I make special reference to it at this juncture because a number of us who have been interested in’ it, as I hope that all honorable members are, have been fearful that it may close down its educational work and its activities be confined to research work. I consider that such an occurrence would be a great calamity to Australia, and I rise to urge upon the Government the need for carrying on this school and the training of our young men. as foresters in order to receive the diploma of forestry. The Australian Forestry School at Canberra is the only institution that awards such a diploma, and I feel compelled to take this action because of the greatimportance of forestry to the national life of this country. Several years ago, I chose to say a few words in regard to this matter, and I hope that I shall not be accused of repetition on this occasion; but I think that some truths have to be hammered home. ‘ The subject of the neglect and destruction of our forests is one of those truths. There is a desire on the part of some of the States to establish forestry schools of their own, but in my opinion that would be detrimental to the school in Canberra. The State of Victoria has a forestry school at Creswick, which is doing very good work ; but it is not the complete work that is being performed at Canberra; nor is it recognized by the University of that or any other State. The Australian Forestry School is the only institution of its kind that is recognized by the Universitiesin all of the States of Australia.

That is one reason why the school should be retained. Had there been a school in one centre doing work of the highest standard before the Canberra school was established, students from other States could have gone there to be trained. The Commonwealth has such a school at Canberra, and it would be a great pity if the work which it does were duplicated. I heard recently that the Forestry Department in New South Wales con- templates the establishment of a forestry school in that State. If the two more populous States established forestry schools, and the Australian Forestry School at Canberra closed in consequence, a great injustice would be done to the other Australian States. I have here a letter from Mr. S. L. Kessell, a very noted forestry authority in the distant State of Western Australia. Honorable members will recall that Mr. Kessell was borrowed from Western Australia by the Forestry Commission of New South Wales to report on the forests in that State. He is an excellent man in his profession, and the facts I have just mentioned should give him sufficient standing. In a recent letter he expressed the hope that the school in Canberra should be continued and in the course of his comments said -

There is only scope for one properly equipped school in Australia … A special committee appointed by the British Government stated that “ The greatest efficiency combined with economy would undoubtedly be obtained by concentrating all forestry training for the whole of the British Isles and Crown colonies at a single institution.

Continuing he said -

The school at Canberra has turned out graduates who are giving satisfaction in all (States . . . It is feared that without the support of the more populous States the Commonwealth Government may feel inclined to close the Canberra school. Such action would seriously embarrass the smaller States who would be left without any training for professional offices.

He went on to say that the other States in the Commonwealth, particularly the smaller States, were satisfied with the men who had graduated at the school at Canberra. He expressed a fear that some of the other States might establish competitive schools and that we would have duplication and overlapping, thus weakening the Canberra institution. Unfor- tunately, not many students are there at present, and last year no students were offering. For some years as many as sixteen students graduated from the school annually, and they finished their studies with most satisfactory results. The statement by Mr. Kessell is an eloquent tribute to the work done here, and is a plea from a distant State for its continuance. I am interested in the Canberra school, because it trains young men to become efficient foresters, and because I am interested in the forests of our country as I think are all honorable members. There could be no greater tragedy than the destruction of the timber with which nature has endowed us. One has only to go back over the last two or three decades to see what has been done to our forest timbers. It is true* that some attention has been paid recently to this subject, but it has been insufficient. Although forests come under State control the Commonwealth has what I may term an over-riding interest in all national assets, because it has shouldered the responsibility for all national debts which are based on national assets. One of our most valuable national assets is the forests of our country; not only because of the timber they produce, but also because they retain the soil upon which future generations will have to depend. This subject has been brought, sharply under the notice of State governments and sections of the Australian public by an excellent report on the subject by Mr. B. TJ. Byles, of the Commonwealth Forestry Bureau, of which the Australian Forestry School at Canberra is a branch, and if the Bureau had rendered no other service than present that report, it would have justified all the expenditure that has been incurred in respect of it. It is an illuminating report, from which I had the privilege of quoting two years ago. I do not propose to cite it again further than to make one or two passing references to it. A study of it would repay honorable members who have not already perused it. It is a devastating document and a crushing indictment of past administration. It is also an indictment of some of those who have been privileged to settle upon the land, and who, it says, have deliberately set fire to the forests in order to clear timber to obtain a little more grass in certain seasons of the year; but in doing so they have destroyed great timber assets, and even worse than that - in destroying timber they have been responsible for serious soil erosion. The report mentioned is confined to the Murray River, and in it reference is made to the fact that the denudation of forests is responsible for soil erosion, for the siltation of rivers, and for the drying up of streams and creeks. On visiting certain parts of Victoria one can see places where streams used to run practically all the year round, but, which to-day, are dry beds. One can see the mountains where water now rushes down because the trees have been removed; previously the roots of the trees held the soil together. The cumulative effect of this, he points out in his scientific report, is, first that forests are not there to hold the moisture in the soil. Previously the forest country acted as a storage for the water which percolated through the soil the whole year through and kept rivers running even in dry seasons. “Without this storage, our smaller streams are drying up and after dry seasons some important rivers also may become dry. Secondly, soil is washed from the mountain tops, leaving only bare rock which acts like a galvanized iron roof; the .water rushes down the gulleys and silts up the streams, causing droughts in summer and floods in winter. That report aroused the authorities in some of the States, the governments of which, are now appointing committees to go into the subject of soil erosion. Of course, soil erosion has two aspects - water erosion and wind erosion. The denudation of our forests is more responsible for water erosion than it is for wind erosion. The Victorian Department of Forests has sent a large party into the Murray River district to report upon the subject of soil erosion, particularly in the area which supplies the Hume Reservoir. I am sorry to say that that report has not been published. I do not know whether it is the intention of the Government to publish it, but I hope that it is, because I am convinced from what I know that it will make very interesting reading, not only to the people of Victoria, but also to the Australian people generally. I have seen references to the appointment of erosion committees by State governments, particularly the Victorian Government. I have seen a report recently dealing with another aspect to the question, concerning the arid districts of South Australia. The erosion is due to the same wastefulness and neglect of a national asset, although I believe that recent rains have made the position less acute than when that country was reported on. I invite honorable members to read’ a report just published by Mr. F. 1ST. Radcliffe, of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, which deals with another aspect of this problem - not on the subject of forestry - the destruction of shrubs and; herbs in South Australia. What applies-, to that State applies also to others. Last year Mr. Radcliffe, in reporting on. soIl drift in those districts, said -

The greatest extent of- erosion and drift has occurred in the bush country where overstocking has been the direct cause of the destruction of plant cover, such as Salt Bush and Mulga Scrub.

Mr. Radcliffe says definitely that this is due to over-stocking. The Government should give the .State authorities its views on this subject, and state that, in order to preserve a national asset no selector should bo allowed a lease or title to land unless accompanied by conditions that will ensure that, instead of trying to get rich quickly in a few years and leave only a wilderness and a desert in their tracks, he will preserve our soil for future generations. It has been stated that rabbits have been responsible for a good deal of destruction, but then rabbits could not have done so much if the damage had not been done beforehand. [Leave te continue given.] I am referring to cheap land on which heavy expenditure such as planting would not be justified. I have seen the shifting sand in the Mallee of Victoria, especially in a drought year. Some honorable members know more about droughts than I do, but they will agree with me that the wind starts the soil shifting in some parts of Victoria and South Australia and leaves nothing but bare plains on which nothing will grow. Had some wisdom been displayed a few years ago every settler would have been compelled to reserve patches of scrub country, which would have been of fourfold benefit. It would have provided shelter for the stock in winter, a sanctuary for birds, which is most essential, and a reserve of firewood in the northern parts which will ultimately be cut out; but, what is more important, it would have prevented wind erosion. That was not done, and we cannot retrace our steps ; but we can prevent a repetition of the folly of the past. I believe that no better way can be suggested than by training men in our best forestry school. That is why I strongly urge that the school in Canberra be retained. It is true that trees must be cut down. We must have firewood, and timber for building purposes, but the cutting of trees for these purposes should be done under expert supervision. We have to kill sheep and cattle for food, but we do not slaughter them wantonly merely for their hides. Something of that kind, however, has been done in regard to our forests. The trees have been destroyed, not even for the sake of their timber, but merely. for the bit of grass which the ground yields after the fire has passed over; and the damage done is a thousand times greater than any possible benefit obtained. We need sound education on the subject, so that mistakes of this kind will not be committed in future. Particularly do we need to be educated in regard to reafforestation. One of the advantages of our Australian forests is that they renew themselves if they are properly cared for, but if they are not cared for, if the firestick is put into them too often, they will eventually perish. When it is necessary to mill timber, we should see that during no period of time shall there be more trees destroyed than can be replaced either naturally or through afforestation. Trees are our friends, and should not be slaughtered as our enemies. I desire to support the Forestry School at Canberra, and to encourage the Government to see that it is maintained and developed. I want honorable members, when they return to their States, to do what they can to influence their State governments to send students to the Canberra Forestry School. Every forestry department should nominate students for training here . We should develop a national outlook on this subject. As a matter of fact it has often occurred to me - more often recently than it used to at one time - that there should be a close season from party bickerings in this Parliament, say, for one month in every two years, when Parliament should become more of a national convention to deal with broad questions of national importance. Forestry is such a subject. Any one who lives, in Canberra should develop a love for trees, even if he never had it before. Graduates of the Canberra Forestry School should become crusaders championing the cause of our forests throughout Australia, and should be able to instil into the people a love for trees. Fertile soil means life, while destruction of trees, and the consequent erosion of soil, may mean famine to those who follow us. It. will he nothing short of a crime if we continue to permit the destruction of forests and the erosion of the soil. A price will have to be paid for it by those who come after us. We should realize how difficult it is to retrace our step, how impossible it sometimes is to repair damage once done. Nature has a way of taking a fearful revenge when we abuse it. One of the most necessary steps to achieve the objects we have in view is to keep the Forestry School functioning in Canberra, to send out from it men who’ are trained in forestry work, and who are imbued with a knowledge of, and an enthusiasm for our Australian forests.

Mr MENZIES:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · UAP

– We all realize that the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) has touched upon a subject of great national importance, and hi* observations will not be overlooked when these matters are being considered.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted.

Resolution of Ways and Means, founded on resolution of Supply, reported and adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Menzies and Dr. Earle Page do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill brought up by Mr. Menzies, and read a first and second time.

In committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Issue and application of £5,760,890).

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- I desire to say something about the recent unsuccessful Australian conversion loan which was floated in London. According to newspaper reports of a few days ago, the loan was a serious blow to the underwriters, who were left with 53 per cent. of it on their hands. We were told that the loan opened at a discount, and the reports went on to say that the disappointing result was not surprising. All this is strangely in conflict with what we heard during the last election campaign. Then we were told that, if a Nationalist government were returned to office, there would be no lack of public confidence, and no lack of financial support. We have also been told frequently what a wonderful man the High Commissioner, Mr. Bruce, is, and what a genius he is at negotiating loan conversions. As a matter of fact, we know that, out of £500,000,000 of Australian loans held overseas, £200,000,000 has been converted atrates far in excess of those paid by Great Britain for the conversion of £2,000,000,000. Australia has had to pay3½ per cent., and even more, whereas Great Britain has been able to convert its loans at 2½ per cent.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).The honorable member is not in order in discussing such matters on this clause. He should wait until the schedule is before the committee.

Mr FORDE:

– We are discussing clause 2, which provides for the grant of £5,760,890, part of which will be devoted to the payment of officers of the Treasury, as well as the Secretary of the High Commissioner’s Office, and probably the High Commissioner himself, who played such an unsuccessful part in the conversion of this loan.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Chair is of opinion that the matter might more properly be discussed on the appropriate item in the schedule.

Mr FORDE:

– I shall continue my remarks when the vote for the Prime Minister’s Department is reached.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

Schedule.

Proposed vote - The Parliament, £37,710 - agreed to.

Prime Minister’s Department.

Proposed vote, £79,720.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- Seeing that the High Commissioner plays such an important part in our loan conversions overseas, I take it that my remarks in respect of the partial failure of the recent Australian loan on the London market can be debated at this juncture. Fifty-three per cent. of the £12,000,000 required was left with the underwriters despite the fact that we were told that all that was necessary in order to ensure the complete success of any of our loan operations overseas was to have in office in the Commonwealth a Nationalist government.

Because an ex-Nationalist Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, in the person of Mr. Bruce, occupied the office of High Commissioner, we were assured that the money lords of Great Britain would readily listen to his representations and disgorge their wealth in order to invest it in Australian loans at such a low rate of interest that there would be a very substantial saving to our people. Notwithstanding all the propaganda indulged in by the Government and by the High Commissioner, however, this loan was a dismal failure. I point out that ten months before the defeat of the BrucePage Government a Commonwealth loan failed on the London market, and the succeeding Labour Government had to straighten out the tangle which resulted. To me, at any rate, it looks as though history is repeating itself in this respect.

Mr Beasley:

– Are they blaming the trouble in Spain?

Mr FORDE:

– Yes ; they used to blame Lang in New South Wales, but now that a Nationalist Government is in office in that State, they blame General Franco. In fact, when the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) did not have an opportunity to deliver his apology for the failure of this loan, he inspired a

Dorothy Dix question from the Government benches, as to whether he did not think the .Spanish war had had something to do with it. With a look of wisdom and thoughtfulness the Acting Treasurer cast a glance at the inspired questioner and replied, in effect, “ Well, probably the honorable member is correct in his assumption “.

M.r. Gander. - Who was the inspired honorable member?

Mr FORDE:

– The honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. E. F. Harrison). Bearing in mind the failure of this loan in London, and the conversion next year of £74,S44,000 in Australia, and £11,4.10,000 in London, one is obliged to take a serious view of the present financial position of this country. Particularly is this so when we realize that we have to find £44,5SS,000 per annum in interest, and recall the suggestion made by the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) .on his way to London, that he was going to sound the money market in Great Britain,a suggestion which led a section of the press to report that this Government intends to go on the money market overseas. In view of these facts. I should like some indication from the Acting Treasurer of whether it. is this Government’s intention to propose that the Loan- Council shall approve of loans being raised on the London money market. Such money, of course, must be brought out. here in the form of imported goods. I was one of those who had some experience of the dreadful aftermath resulting from the orgy of borrowing indulged in by the Bruce-Page Government, when an average of £40,000,000 a year was raised on the London market for three or four years before that Government went out. of office. This was responsible for an influx of imports into this country for which our exports were insufficient to pay, and resulted in a series of adverse trade balances aggregating £7S,000,000 for the -period the Bruce-Page Government was in Office. On the 1st April, the Melbourne Age, a newspaper which does not usually support the Labour party, stated -

During the disastrous Bruce-Page spending orgy Australia pawned herself to oversea investors. Regardless of the mounting rate of interest, governments borrowed abroad, on an average of £30,000,000 a year. Throughout that long period imports poured into the Commonwealth in tremendous quantities; every new loan represented so many more shiploads of goods, a large proportion of which’ could have been manufactured by Australians in Australia. When, the slump came there was no more money to be obtained, but there was a gigantic interest bill to pay. And it had to he paid in sterling, with exports which were then worth, in some instances, only onethird of their value when the loans were floated.

Many thoughtful people in the community fear that this Government intends to embark on a borrowing policy in London again, thus burdening posterity with stupendous debts and interest payments. We cannot overlook the fact that, since June, 1931, the total amount of Commonwealth and State debts has been increased by over £100,000,000. If it desires to extricate itself from financial embarrassment, by raising loans overseas, the Government, as a matter of course, will probably advance the pretence that the money is needed for the purpose of finding work for the unemployed. This will be said regardless of the fact that overseas borrowing really creates unemployment in Australia. In that case, any one who criticizes the action of the Government, or votes against any of its proposals, can expect to be told that he is opposed to the rehabilitation of the unemployed, whereas the fact remains that money borrowed abroad comes into Australia in the form of goods, which displace Australian goods on the home market, and, ultimately displace Australian workmen. That is one of the principal reasons why the Labour party is opposed to borrowing in London. Furthermore, an overseas loan would increase our staggering load of debt and the tribute of interest which we are now obliged to pay abroad.

Mr Perkins:

– Is the honorable member speaking of Queensland?

Mr FORDE:

– I am speaking in respect of Australia, and for Australia. For the reasons I have just given, I should like the Acting Treasurer to give a flat denial to the rumours circulating in a certain section of the press that the Government intends to go on the London market in the near future. Some time ago the Stevens Government arranged for a loan to be floated on the London market by the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney

Mr Gander:

– How did the United Australia party get on in Woollahra?

Mr FORDE:

– In Vaucluse, the candidate who ran against the party machine defeated the nominee of the United Australia party, and now, in Woollahra, an independent candidate looks certain to repeat that performance. However, these defeats will be nothing compared with the defeat of the Federal United Australia party machine at the coming election. In reality, the loan arranged to be floated by the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney is for the Stevens Government, which has taken charge of the board’s muddled finances, and dictates its works policy. Commenting on this transaction, the Sydney Bulletin of the 16th June, 1937, stated-

Our glorious press, which proffers heaps of unsolicited advice to the Germans and Italians on how they should run their countries, the first step being to get rid of their governments, has been singularly silent about this iniquitious resumption of London borrowing by a State government, in flagrant defiance of the spirit of the Financial Agreement and of the interests of Australia. It has published no comment at all. But the people have been allowed to learn, in a two-line message from London, that the Water Board loan lias boon quoted at a discount of 5s.

I should like to know from the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) whether this Government took into consideration the probable effect of the action of the Stevens

Government upon the conversion of the £12,000,000 Commonwealth short-dated loan ; it must have been very detrimental. How is it that the Lyons Government was so short-sighted as to approve of the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney, backed by the Stevens Government, going on the London money market at the same time as the Commonwealth was trying to convert a loan?

How much further can we continue to increase our national debt ? I repeat that, since the beginning of July, 1931, there has been an increase of the total indebtedness of the Commonwealth and State governments by over £100,000,000. Without accepting the doctrine that there is an unlimited field for the expansion of credit through the Commonwealth Bank, I am confident that much can be done in that direction to relieve the Australian people of the increasing burden of taxation due to our public debt. A conservative journal the other day charged the Labour party with believing ,( That you can manufacture money ‘ while you wait ‘ and circulate the proceeds among an expectant community; that Labour’s fantastic schemes of economic reconstruction arc based on the repeated assertion that money can be drawn from the air by the expansion of credit.”

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Prowse:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr FORDE:

– I shall take the second portion of my time. That statement, which appeared in a leading article published in the Melbourne Argus, is a stupid fabrication, and what one might expect from a newspaper which is the mouthpiece of the private banking institutions of Australia. The Labour party does not believe that one can get anything for nothing; but it does believe that the Commonwealth Bank could provide money for the Government at a minimum cost, from the same source from which the private banks provide money to governments and industry at a high costNational credit is really based upon the total assets of the people, and the production of wealth. As production is increased, our national credit increases. The private banking companies lend many millions of pounds, the security for which is the assets of the borrowers,, and repayments depend upon production. There is no reason, why the Commonwealth Government should pay a heavy toll to private banks or money lenders, and- allow the private banks to have a free hand to exploit the community. With a majority in both Houses the Government has the power to legislate for banking and monetary reform; but it will not do so. The sooner the people realize that the present . Government is dominated by the private trading banks, and has not a financial reform policy to put into operation, but goes cap in hand to its money masters before it makes any move, the sooner will the United Australia party and the United Country party composite Ministry be relegated, to political obscurity. It behoves everybody who stands for banking and monetary reform to get behind the Labour party at the nest elections.

Mr MENZIES:
Acting Treasurer · Kooyong · UAP

– I can at least compliment the honorable gentleman on his nerve, because a more daring attempt to distort the facts I have yet to hear in this chamber. The honorable gentleman began by referring to the recent conversion loan in London, negotiations with respect to which were conducted on behalf of the Australian Government by the Right Honorable the High Commissioner. He mentioned, with apparent satisfaction, the fact that a considerable proportion of that loan, to be precise, 52^ per cent., was left with the underwriters.

Mr Forde:

– I blamed the Government for that.

Mr MENZIES:

– The honorable gentleman referred with apparent satisfaction to that alleged failure. I understood him to attribute it to a mixture of circumstances, one circumstance being the incompetence of the Right Honorable the High Commissioner, and another the financial unsoundness of the present Government. I did not hear him refer to the unbroken series of successes on the London market during the last few years as being proof of the skill of the High Commissioner or the financial stability of this Government. He waits until he finds that some Australian loan has not been fully subscribed by the London investing public, and then gives the remarkable exhibition of an Australian member of Parliament apparently rejoicing in the fact.

Mr Forde:

– No, deploring the fact and saying that it is time that the present Government was turned out of office.

Mr MENZIES:

– The honorable gentleman has failed to take various circumstances into account. It is quite tran that 52£ per cent, of this loan was left with the underwriters. That means that if there is any loss attaching to the flotation of the loan on the very favorable terms on which it was floated, that loss will not fall on the Australian Government or the Australian people, but will be borne by the underwriters, who, of all people in the city of London, are the most experienced in forming a judgment as to what the fate of a loan will be. Possessing that knowledge, they were satisfied to take any risk that might be involved in approaching the market with what,, from our viewpoint, was an extremely favorable rate of interest. The honorable gentleman entirely omitted any reference to the fact that, doubtless, owing to the same disturbed conditions on the London market, 80 per cent, of a recent flotation in the city of London by the London County Council was left with the underwriters.

Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944

– Is there a Labour majority in that council?

Mr MENZIES:

– There is a Labour majority, and no doubt the affairs of the council have for years been conducted by it in accordance with the Labour party’s well-known sound financial principles. The truth is that the honorable gentleman entirely ignores all the circumstances which, on the London money market, may convert to-day’s prospect of a great success into a comparatively poor result.

Mr Forde:

– But when the Labour party was in- office in Australia, it was blamed for any lack of success.

Mr MENZIES:

– I cannot remember any underwriter ever encouraging the Labour party to believe that it could float a loan. It was left to this Government, when it came into office, to restore the credit of Australia, and to begin a series of conversions to which the honorable gentleman may now churlishly refer, but which, in fact, have amounted to over £200,000,000, and have saved in interest £4,000,000 a year. I venture to think that if the High Commissioner had to stand in judgment side by side with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) before any jury of Australians which had to say who had done the moat towards restoring the credit of this country and obtaining the benefit of that restoration in cold hard cash, such a jury would have no difficulty in coming to the right conclusion.

Warmed up by his own enthusiastic fallacies, the honorable gentleman proceeded to be extraordinarily reckless in his statements. He said - and it was not a slip of the tongue, because he repeated it - that during the regime of this Government £100,000,000 has been added to the public debt of the Commonwealth and the States.

Mr Ward:

– The figure is £117,000,000, as a matter of fact.

Mr MENZIES:

– Another honorable member goes one better than the honorable gentleman. I do not mind what the rises are ; the more the figure is increased, the further honorable members get from the facts. It is interesting to hear people who know nothing of the facts talking glibly about how £100,000,000 has been added to the public debt, presumably by the Lyons administration. What are the facts? In 1932, when this Government came into office, the total Commonwealth debt was £399,000,000.

Mr FORDE:

– I referred to the total indebtedness of the Commonwealth and the States.

Mr MENZIES:

– The honorable gentleman wants to make this Government responsible for the borrowings of Queeusland, New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia and the other States. I shall take the figures separately. The honorable gentleman’s statement was inaccurate, and, if- I may say so, was designed to create a wrong impression in the minds of the public. Let me give the cold figures. In 1932, the Commonwealth public debt was £399,000,000. At the end of the year 1936, the last completed financial year, it was £391,000,000, a reduction during the term of office of this Government of £8,000,000.

Mr Forde:

– I did not say otherwise; I referred to the total indebtedness of Australia generally. “Mr. MENZIES.- The honorable gentleman may explain his statement away as much as he likes. In the meantime, I am going to nail it down. The public debt of the States in 1932 was £789,000,000, and at the end of June, 1936, it was £865,000,000, an increase of £76.000.000. Those debts, I remind honorable members, are not controlled by the Commonwealth Government. If we relate those two figures we shall see that there was a net increase of £68,000,000. The honorable gentleman may say, “ Well, I was only £32,000,000 out “ ; and his colleague from East Sydney may say, “ I was only £49,000,000 out “. That is nothing to people who think of finance as the Labour party thinks of it.

Mr GREGORY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Did the Deputy Leader of the Opposition oppose any of that State borrowing?

Mr MENZIES:

– Of course not. The borrowing of the States has been conducted under the auspices of the Loan . Council, and, if I may say so, I have no doubt that the great bulk of it was well warranted; that the programme of works which the States have been putting in hand, very largely for the relief of unemployment, has necessarily absorbed substantial sums of loan money. But for anybody to say, as the honorable gentleman did, that during the period of office of this Government £100,000,000 has been added to the public debt, and to deduce from that fact that this is an extravagant Government, and that if Labour assumed office all the millions of pounds that it would need to pay for its financial schemes would be provided out of the savings it would make in interest on borrowed money, is to reach the high water mark of nerve.

Mr Forde:

– The right honorable gentleman well knows that it was not suggested that we should do that. I outlined what could be done.

Mr MENZIES:

– Still warming up to his work, the honorable gentleman said that the people of Australia, having regard to the failure of the conversion loan in London, had -better boar in mind that another conversion loan of £75,000,000 is falling due in Australia next year. I hope that the people of Australia will remember that fact; indeed, that they will put to themselves the one simple question, “Do we want the people who have been handling our finances during the last six years to look after that conversion, or shall we say to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and his associates, ‘ Please handle this conversion; you are bound, to understand these things much better than the present administration; you are bound to know more than the High Commissioner and the Commonwealth’s advisers in London; you will be able- to handle the conversion on the most favorable terms ‘ “.

There is only one other matter with which I need deal. The honorable gentleman said that the loan raised by the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney - which I point out, was underwritten by exactly the same people as underwrote our conversion loan, people who have an even more intimate know- ledge of the London market than the honorable gentleman possesses - waa a flagrant defiance of the Financial Agreement. I point out, however, that borrowings by semi-governmental authorities do not in fact fall within the terms of the Financial Agreement; but by virtue of what the honorable gentleman must well remember lias been described as the gentleman’s agreement which was made subsequent to the Financial Agreement, no borrowing by a semi-governmental body of that kind is made to-day except after notification to, and approval by, the Loan Council. In point of fact the proposal of the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney to approach the London market was submitted to the Loan Council, on which there are Premiers of different shades of political thought, and was approved by that body. Only after approval was given to the proposal by the Loan Council was the loan floated in London and underwritten in the manner in which I have stated.

Mr Beasley:

– Was the approval of the Loan Council unanimous?

Mr MENZIES:

– There were no dissentients. In the light of those facts, how can it be said that that borrowing by the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney was a flagrant defiance of the Financial Agreement? In conclusion, I congratulate the honorable gentleman. Some’ of us are wrong sometimes when dealing with financial matters; he has the distinction of having been wrong every time.

Mr CURTIN:
Fremantle

.- The Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) made great play with the statements that have been made, not only in this House, but elsewhere as well, regarding the relative merits of the work accomplished by the present Government and that of its predecessor, and the relationship which that work apparently has to the present position in Australia; but not all the rhetoric in the world can disguise the fact that the public debt of Australia is now greater by the amount indicated in the speech of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, than when the Lyons Government came into office. That is a plain statement of fact.

Mr Menzies:

– It is not a fact. The debt of Australia has increased, not by £100,000,000, but by £67,000,000 in that period.

Mr CURTIN:

– ‘What has the Statistician to say about it?

Mr Menzies:

– The figures which I gave were provided by the Treasury.

Mr CURTIN:

– If the right honorable gentleman will compare the statement which accompanied the Budget for last year, he will find that the total indebtedness of Australia on the 30th June, 1932, was £1,187,828,000 and that on the 30th June, 1936, it was £1,255,782,000.

Mr Menzies:

– That is a difference of approximately £67,000,000, as I stated.

Mr CURTIN:

- Mr. Lyons became Prime Minister in January, 1932. The public debt in 1931 amounted to approximately £1,156,000,000. The amount raised between the 1st July, 1931, and the assumption of office by Mr. Lyons in 1932 was not the total of the public debt at that time. I say most emphatically that it was inevitable that the public debt should increase during the period that the present Commonwealth Government has been in office, for the reason that it refused to expend revenue on the employment of the people. The States were obliged to raise money on loan account in order to employ the people, and, as a result, their indebtedness increased. It is true that the Commonwealth public debt has not increased much during that period; the greater part of the total increase of indebtedness of Australia has been incurred by the States. The present Commonwealth Government boasts that it has refrained from dipping into what it calls the loan pool, but has left that for the States. But it has also left to the States the inevitable interest bill consequent on the increased public debt of the States.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– Does the honorable member suggest that the Commonwealth should pay interest on moneys borrowed by the States ?

Mr CURTIN:

– The answer to that interjection is that although in his policy speech of three years ago the Prime Minister undertook that his Government would take an increased share of the responsibility for dealing with unemployment in Australia, it did not do so until an election was pending. That is the truth of the matter.

Mr White:

– Special grants have been made to the States.

Mr CURTIN:

– Special grants have been made only to certain States; and even those grants were not for the relief of unemployment, but were made in order to enable those States to meet their budgetary needs because of exceptional circumstances which they claimed entitled them to Commonwealth assistance. The States of Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland, received no special grants, other than some disbursements to effect budgetary adjustments. The States of Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania were given special grants; but even those grants were not hypothecated for the relief of unemployment. They were grants in relief of budgetary difficulties, which were exceptional in those States because of their relations to the Commonwealth. The other three States did not receive any special grants of an analagous character. In any case, this also is true, that the savings of interest which this Government has enjoyed since it came into office aggregate approximately £46,000.000.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– How much of that is the share of the States?

Mr CURTIN:

– None of it. The amount which the States have saved is approximately £28,000,000, the total interest saving, exclusive of savings in respect of exchange, being about £74,000,000. That amount includes internal as well as external savings. The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) appears to have missed that point. That the total interest savings amount’ to approximately £74,000,000 was indicated in this House in Treasury returns compiled shortly after the last Budget was submitted by the Treasurer. Those returns showed that the aggregate savings of interest and sinking fund charges for five years amounted to approximately £46,000,000 in respect of the Commonwealth, and £28,000,000 in respect of the States. Apart from the most recent conversion, only £182,000,000 has been converted over-seas.

Mr Menzies:

– The total amount is about £197,000,000.

Mr CURTIN:

– Under £200,000,000 has been converted overseas. In each instance stocks have been converted from the original rate of interest to the then ruling rate of market interest prevailing: in England. I have never failed to say that the High Commissioner has managed” his part “of’ the conversions with thehighest competence. I say it again now,, in fairness to him and the Government,, and also in fairness to Australia. But,, since the first of the conversions waseffected overseas, the aggregate savingsin that connexion for the States and the Commonwealth amounts to only a little over £8,000,000. That amount represents the entire savings which can be claimed by this Government out of a total of £74,000,000 which has been saved to Australia in respect of interest payments since the first conversion took place. Those conversions were initiated by the Scullin Government. Yet the AttorneyGeneral says to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, “ How will .the people of Australia speak at the general election in respect of the conversions due next year, amounting to £70,000,000?” The answer is that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition was a member of a government which in 1931, converted loans amounting to £536,000,000.- I put it factually. Loans amounting to £536,000,000 were converted at a time of great difficulty in Australia, when circumstances occasioned a great deal of doubt as to the confidence that could .be reposed in the Australian financial structure. No one will say that the present state of mind of the Australian public towards the general financial position of the Commonwealth is anything like what it was in 1931. Since that year, the stability of Australian governmental finance has been secure. I say to the Attorney-General that nothing that his Government has done to establish confidence in the bona fides of Australian finance equals what was done by the Australian Labour party under the leadership of the right hon!orable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin), when he was Prime Minister. The present Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) was not a member of the Scullin Government at the time when that Government met the whole of the obligations of Australia in the same way as the present Government has met them. This political” electioneering in respect of the alleged inability of thi3 party to carry out a sane financial policy may be good political tactics, but it is not the kind of argument which enhances the reputation of Australia in the world.

Mr Forde:

– It is cheap and paltry.

Mr Menzies:

– The Leader and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition must fight it out between themselves; their statements are , contradictory.

Mr CURTIN:

– No; I shall fight it out with the Attorney-General. He is the protagonist of a political party that all the time bases its claims to continued occupancy of the treasury bench, not on its own merits, but on the unfounded suspicion which it is endeavouring to create in the minds of the public as to the capacity of the Opposition. The savings which the present Government has had to assist it have been four times greater than its surpluses. That is to 9ay, its aggregate surpluses are only onefourth of the interest that has been saved as a result of the conversions effected by the Government which preceded it. The present. Government has to thank, not its exhibition of statesmanship, but its inheritance, for what has been accomplished during its term of office.

As to the general question of overseas borrowing, I say that, regardless of what the Loan Council may have approved, this Parliament has a right to express its mind as to the raising of money abroad That, at, least, should be clear. I put it to the Attorney-General that it is not in the best interests of Australia that capital required by Australian governments should be raised outside Australia. The £2,000,000 loan- floated by the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board of Sydney will appear in Australian statistics as an import, and the Australian nation will have to meet the obligations in respect of that loan. Further, Australia will have to export more primary produce every year, regardless of market values, to pay interest on that money. There was no reason at all why the board should have raised that money overseas. If we examine the financial relations of New South Wales to the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board, we shall see that the amount’ of revenue which the board has contributed to the New South Wales Treasury was sufficient had that board been allowed to retain its own earnings, to have rendered unnecessary the borrowing of the money overseas at all. The amount of £2,000,000 which it borrowed was actually a distinct acquisition to the capital resources of the Government of New South Wales.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

.- The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) was good enough to tell us a few minutes ago that tin’s Government is about to go out of office. It was, therefore, surprising to hear him ask the Acting Treasurer in almost the same, breath what this Government proposed to do in regard to the conversion of £70,000,000 that will be maturing next year. When it comes to financial matters of this description the honorable gentleman should remain silent. I have heard of Satan reproving sin, but that will be a mere circumstance when the Deputy Leader of the Opposition undertakes to reprove himself. He talked about the desire of this Government and other governments to borrow abroad, but he was particularly silent in regard to the operations of the Queensland Labour Government led by Mr. Theodore. It was that gentleman who commenced borrowing in New York. He paid for the money he obtained the highest rate of interest ever paid for loan money by an Australian government - 7 per cent. That rate is still being paid, not in Australian currency, but in good, almighty dollars of the United States of America. Mr. Theodore, as we well remember, was quite prepared at that time to borrow money from anywhere - Moscow, Jerusalem, or Timbuctoo. It was argued that it was only by borrowing money from overseas that the development, of Australia could be pursued. It was interesting to hear the Deputy Leader of the Opposition talk about the high tariff on certain luxuries which could not be afforded locally. The honorable gentleman, after referring to recent overseas interest commitments, appeared to be concerned about future borrowings that might take place if this Government were returned to power. I feel it necessary, therefore, to point out that he seemed to be blissfully forgetful of the fact that our primary industries are to-day still paying 7 per cent. on money that was borrowed by his pet leader, Mr. Theodore, for expenditure in Queensland.

Speaking generally with regard to the financial policy of the Labour party, I remember very particularly that in the three-year period 1924-1927, a Labour government in South Australia added more than £25,000,000 to the State debt. It is well to bear these things in mind in view of the possibility of a Labour government coming into power after the next election - for I always recognize the possibility of a democracy making a mistake. The Acting Treasurer referred to the jury making a choice. Of course, we have the scriptural record that Barabbas was chosen on one occasion. Some error like that might happen again. If we are to be saddled with another Labour government the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson) should get busy at once. The Federal Capital, as at present located, does not seem to suit honorable gentlemen opposite. In order to accommodate them and the financial ideas which they expound from time to time, I suggest that Vulcan Island might be set aside as the capital, and the Larrakia used as the means of communication to and from Sydney. This would provide the best means of transport that I can think of for those who might want to use Vulcan Island.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) has just had a few words to say about the savings of interest through various conversion operations. I have not the exact figures before me, but I challenge those which he used. He said that a saving of £74,000,000 had been made. The Acting Treasurer had previously pointed out that the Commonwealth debt to-day is in the neighbourhood of £400,000,000, and the debts of the States are about £750,000,000. It was also stated that £46,000,000 had been saved on the Commonwealth debt of £400,000,000.

Mr Curtin:

– That includes the recurring Hoover savings.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– That is a small figure in the total of £74,000,000. This is the crux of the problem: the Leader of the Opposition said that the saving on £750,000,000 of State debts was only £28,000,000 in interest, while the savings on £400,000,000 of Commonwealth debt was £46,000,000. This suggests to me that there was something radically wrong with the internal conversion operations referred to by the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr Curtin:

– The honorable member overlooks the fact that the internal conversion loans related to Commonwealth debts, whereas theoverseas conversions related principally to State debts.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– That would not alter the situation very greatly. If the figures stated by the Leader of the Opposition are correct, the benefit which accrued to the Commonwealth from the internal conversions must have been extraordinary. It must, in fact, have been about double the percentage which the States enjoyed. I was a member of the Parliament of South Australia at the time the internal conversions were made, and my recollection of the circumstancesdoes not bear out the view of the Leader of the Opposition. I suggest that he should make some investigation of the whole subject.

Mr Curtin:

– Up to the end of last year there was a saving of £27,000,000 under the Hoover arrangement.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– I repeat that that saving was small in comparison with £46,000,000. Anyhow, I leave the subject for the Leader of the Opposition to ponder, and suggest that he call a party meeting for to-morrow morning to fight the whole matter out.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

– I have been interested in this discussion, which shows me that the political game is being played with all the venom possible by Government supporters. Honorable gentlemen opposite may laugh. The same kind of inane laughter may be heard at any time at the zoo. They all will undoubtedly find themselves in their proper place in due course.

Reference lias been made to the action of tile Queensland Labour Government in approaching the New York market for money years ago. I wish to make a few observations on that subject. The right people to go to Vulcan Island are the members of the present Government, for, during the Vast six years, they have not been prepared to stand against vested interests and maintain the rights of the majority of the Australian people. It is desirable that we consider the circumstances that prevailed prior to the borrowing of money on the New York market by Mr. Theodore. It will be remembered that just before that time the Queensland Parliament passed certain legislation introduced by the Queensland Labour Government, to deal with absentee landlords. The Government had decided to break up large estates and do something effective to secure closer settlement. Many absentee landlords were drawing the very lifeblood out of Queensland, and were not prepared to assist, in the proper development of that State.

Mr Gander:

– The Tory party sent a delegation to London to queer the financial pitch there.

Mr BEASLEY:

– That is so. Mr. Theodore would have been .glad to borrow the money he needed in London. The Government had decided definitely to deal effectively with the absentee landlords, and it did so; but when Mr. Theodore endeavoured to- obtain money in London, Sir Robert Nivison, who was one of the absentee landlords, as well as the senior partner of Messrs. R. Nivison and Company, influenced the financiers of Loudon to boycott Queensland. He said to Mr. Theodore, “We can accommodate you provided you are willing to go back and repudiate .your own democracy “. Mr. Theodore refused to do so. It was in these circumstances that the vested interests of London, led by Nivison, declined to make .any money available. Mr. Theodore thereupon went to New York and, in the circumstances, he was absolutely justified in doing so. These juc the facts of the ease.

I come now to the position in South Australia. If the Labour Government there, which was led by Mr. John Gunn, made such a failure of its financial operations, as the honorable member for

Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) has suggested, it is remarkable that Mr. Bruce should have requested Mr. Gunn to accept a responsible .position on the Development and Migration Commission, which had the directing of expenditure amounting to £30,000,000. It seems that this man who is standing his trial to-night, at least in the mind of the honorable member, was sufficiently highly regarded by Mr. Bruce as to cause him to make the offer to which I have referred. That ought to be an answer to the honorable member’s allegations with respect to the Labour Government in South Australia.

It is noteworthy how the party opposite has developed the habit of collecting the remnants of the Labour party from time to time to do responsible financial jobs for it. The Leader of the present Government (Mr. Lyons) was a member of the Labour party, and the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) has said that the United Australia party always pays the price for such transfers of loyalty. Whatever he wished others to infer is his own affair, but when men in the past have stuck to their principles, and fought the battle against high finance, I am not going to allow them to be maligned in this Parliament.

The record of the Scullin Government lias been criticized. It is well, therefore, to delve into the history of the finances of this country just prior to the Labour Ministry’s assumption ‘of office. The present Minister for Commerce (Dr. Earle Page) was the Treasurer of Australia at that time. In fact, for the seven or eight years that he was in office, Australia experienced probably the most prosperous period in its history. Yet the honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett) described Dr. Earle Page as the most tragic Treasurer Australia had ever had. He made that declaration in such circumstances that it was broadcast to the four corners of the continent. Later, he sat cheek by jowl with the right honorable gentleman in the same Cabinet, and probably would do so again if he had the opportunity. Within about 48 hours of the passing from office of the Bruce-Page Government, Sir Robert Gibson, the Chairman of Directors of the Commonwealth Bank, was waiting at the door of the Cabinet room to request the new Prime Minister in the Labour Government to take immediate action to correct the unfortunate financial circumstances that had overtaken the country. I well remember my colleague, the then honorable member for Bourke, Mr. Anstey, saying to Sir Robert Gibson, “ It is remarkable that you should come to a Labour government with a request of this kind immediately it assumes office. What have you been doing for the last seven or eight years, Sir Robert?” Sir Robert Gibson answered, “ Time and time again I brought under notice the tragic condition of the country, and urged the Treasurer to take some steps to put an end to the orgy of oversea borrowing. I asked that the system should be ended, out nothing was done “. It was in such circumstances as these, when all the portents of the tragic years that followed were observable, that the Scullin Government came into office. We are facing a similar situation now, and I suppose the Government is waiting to hand over, with the reins of office, to a Labour administration a similar chaotic condition as regards the governmental finance of the Commonwealth. The worst features of the depression which the people of this - country have recently experienced were caused largely by the policy of the “tragic” Treasurer who was in power for seven years prior to 1928. Had there been prudent administration during the prosperous years, and had Australia not been plunged into an orgy of borrowing, the people need not have suffered half so much as they have during the last six years. It is well to remember that the political game can be played on both sides. If the party opposite boasts of what Mr. Bruce did some time ago, it must also carry the responsibility for what he failed to do quite recently. That is our answer. We shall warn the people, as we did at the Gwydir by-election, that they are now confronted by a set of circumstances comparable with those of 1929-30.

Mr CURTIN:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1934; ALP from 1936

.- Up to the end of the last financial year, the total savings in interest and other economies effected in connexion with the loan conversions were £74,000,000, of which £38,000,000 was saved in respect of debt domiciled in Australia and converted under the financial emergency acts, £27,700,000 in respect of interest and repayments of war debt to the British Government, and £8,000,000 in respect of loans held by the public in Great Britain. During the last financial year, the total savings were computed at £16,000,000, of which £7,600,000 applied to the debt domiciled in Australia, £5,500,000 to the war debt due to the British Government, and £3,145,000 to loans held by the public in Great Britain. Regarding the overseas conversions, I point out to the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) that four-fifths of the savings effected were in respect of loans for the States, and one-fifth in respect of Commonwealth loans; but with regard to the internal debt which was converted, threefifths of the savings applied to the Commonwealth and two-fifths to the States. Of the total interest savings of about £16,300,000 in the last financial year, in connexion with all government budgets in Australia, it may be said that the States, have been saved a little less than £7,000,000, and the Commonwealth a little less than £9,500,000. It should be borne in mind that the war debt to the British Government is included in the amount of savings which flowed to the Commonwealth budget. I say, frankly, that without these savings the present Government would not have been able to reduce taxes or to have surpluses. It would most certainly not have been able to avoid an increase of the Commonwealth’s share of the public debt. It is not fair that this Government, in argument in this chamber, should imply improvidence on the part of the State governments in increasing their indebtedness in the last five years.

Mr Menzies:

– I did not say that.

Mr CURTIN:

– In defending his Government’s policy, the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) took great care, as did the Acting Prime Minister ( Dr. Earle Page), when speaking during the Gwydir byelection campaign, to point out that the increase of the public indebtedness of the States represented almost the whole of the Australian increase, and that the Commonwealth Government had contributed very little to it.

Mr Menzies:

– I did not leave the matter at that. I was careful to say that I did not criticize the States for having borrowed; on the contrary, I recognized that they had to borrow in order to provide work for the unemployed.

Mr CURTIN:

– I say, frankly, that the six States, some of which have been under the control of Labour ministries, others under the control of antiLabour governments, could not have avoided raising money by loan in order to provide work for the unemployed, because their revenue position made it impracticable for them to provide the necessary money in any other way. Furthermore, having regard to the fact that the States are excluded from the field of indirect taxation, they could not have increased taxes beyond the point to which they had ‘ imposed them. As a matter of fact, in the last five years the States have reduced the minimum amount to which income tax is applicable, and have thereby levied severe imposts on taxpayers in the lower ranges of income. They had to do that while the Commonwealth Government was taking taxes off the higher ranges of income. This shows that a fair outlook on the part of this Government would have resulted in the retention of the categories of direct taxation in respect of which remission was made for political purposes, and the revenue that would thus have been conserved could have been “used to provide work for the unemployed. That would have been a sounder policy to pursue. Throughout the whole of the term of office of the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), he and his colleagues, have laid the major social responsibility upon the States in order to accommodate their political policy to the major interests of those who are their principal supporters.

Sitting suspended from 11.5b P-“i. to 12.30 a.m. (Tuesday).

Tuesday, 29 June, 19S7.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– The members of the Opposition are grateful to the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) because his defence of the Government has supplied them with very g6od reasons to place before the people why they should support our policy in the interests of this country. He should be able to speak with some authority ou financial matters because he is in a position to secure first-hand information of the attitude to be adopted by those who control finance here and overseas towards a Labour administration. Being a member of the clubs where financial men congregate he is able to obtain their ideas and to express their opinions in this Parliament with some authority. I was most interested in his statement to the effect that the London County Council had been unable to secure any financial accommodation simply because it wa3 under Labour control. He also mentioned the fact that the Scullin Government had been unable to convert Australian loans abroad simply because the underwriters would not undertake the task when a Labour government was in office. It, therefore, seems obvious from the reasoning of Government supporters and particularly the Acting Treasurer, that democracy in this country is only a joke, and that if a Labour government secures control it will be unable to govern along the lines laid down in the Labour party’s platform, unless it destroys the domination of outside financial interests. It was interesting to hear the Acting Treasurer make these admissions, which we shall use to advantage at the next general elections. The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) mentioned the visit overseas of Mr. Theodore when Premier of Queensland, when the financial interests abroad failed to give any accommodation to the Queensland Government. The honorable member could have concluded his story by saying that when Mr. Theodore returned to Australia he was compelled to repeal certain land legislation placed on the statute-book by the Queensland Government because the overseas financial interests objected to it. This proves conclusively Labour’s contentions and charges that the actions of governments in this country have been in the past determined by interests outside Parliament rather than by members elected on the votes of the people. The Acting Treasurer spoke of the nerve of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition ‘ (Mr. Forde) in quoting figures concerning the increase of the national debt that were inaccurate and said that they were quoted only for the purpose of misleading the people.

Mr Forde:

– .They were supplied to me by the Treasury officials and should be accurate.

Mr WARD:

– .That is the point. When the Acting Treasurer quoted his figures giving the increase of the national debt without stating the period which they covered, they were deliberately designed to mislead.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order I

Mr Hawker:

– I rise to a point of order. Is the honorable member for East Sydney in order in saying that the figures given by the Acting Treasurer were deliberately designed to mislead, the House ?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member for East Sydney, who. is not entitled to charge any honorable member with deliberately misleading the House, has already been called to order.

Mr WARD:

– The Deputy Leader of the Opposition quoted figures supplied by Commonwealth Treasury officials, showing the increase of the national debt. Between June, 1931, when the national debt was £1,156,000,000 and March, 1937, the latest figures available, when it was £1,263,000,000, the national debt increased by £107,000,000. Those figures cover “a period of five and three-quarter years; and for five and a quarter year’s of that period, the Lyons Government occupied the Treasury bench. The Acting Treasurer quoted figures showing a smaller increase from the 30th June, 1932, six months after the Government had been in office.

Mr Menzies:

– That is what I 3aid.

Mr WARD:

– The Acting Treasurer quoted figures to the 30th June, 1936, but subsequent to that date there have been additional borrowings by Commonwealth and by State governments, and the Acting Treasurer was deliberately misleading the House because he knew that was so.

Mr Thorby:

– The whole world knows that

Mr WARD:

– At least there is one thing that ‘the whole world does not know and that is what the Acting Treasurer has assisted the Labour party to make known - that no Labour administration can function in the interests of the people unless it first of all takes steps to control national finance, because it will bc unable to get financial accommodation from the wealthy financial interests here or abroad. I do not deny-that the wealthy men have great confidence in this Government. They have every reason to have confidence in it; because what do such interests require? They want excessive profits. Any government that is prepared to smash down- the conditions of the people so that investors can get these large profits will have the confidence of wealthy financial interests. On the other hand, under existing conditions, if a Labour administration, such as that led some time, ago by. Mr. Theodore in Queensland, attempts to break up the large estates - a policy objected to by the financial interests abroad - it cannot get financial accommodation until such time as it repeals its legislation and introduces a policy approved by these people.

The same thing applies wherever the present arrangement of society obtains. The Lang Labour Administration in New South Wales placed on the statute-book certain legislation designed to benefit those who sell their labour; but it could not benefit those interests without affecting very drastically those who live upon the labour of others - the investing section of the community. Any attempts by a Labour government in New South Wales to give effect to a policy approved by the people has been frustrated by the inner group of financial” interests which dominates the finances of this country and deliberately sets out upon a policy to smash Labour at whatever cost so that it may be able to continue on its merry way and obtain excessive profits at the expense of the workers in this country.

Mr Beasley:

– They are even prepared to encourage Fascism in Australia.

Mr WARD:

– Yes; to encourage and develop Fascism, if the necessity arose, these interests would attempt to overthrow ‘by force the existing form of Parliamentary government so that they might still continue their domination to the detriment of the community. After listening to the Acting Treasurer I am satisfied that the Labour party would be foolish not to persist with its financial reforms. The Acting Treasurer said that the financial policy of the Labour party is fantastic, but it is not so fantastic when placed alongside the statements made by the Minister to-night.

Mr Baker:

– They said even worse things about the establishment of the Commonwealth Bank.

Mr WARD:

– Exactly. The AttorneyGeneral, when speaking on another subject, said that he. was prepared to support any proposal to increase the wages of the workers, but he would not support any scheme under which their hours of labour would be reduced, which would, of course; improve their working conditions. It is obvious why the AttorneyGeneral supports such a policy. I think it was Mr. Silk, one of the employers’ representatives, who, after the decision had been given by the Arbitration Court in the basic wage case, said that the workers would not obtain any benefit as the result of the 6s. a week increase because that amount would be passed on to them in increased costs. The Sydney Morning Herald said that Mr. Silk had rendered a dis-service to the country in making that statement, because he only supported the argument of the Communist element, which said that these courts were not intended to give justice to the workers. So we find that domination by financial interests exists, not only in this Parliament but also in the various tribunals which are established, and over which men who are prepared to do the bidding of big finance are appointed to preside. Great influence is exercised over certain individuals by big finance because of their power to offer tempting bribes. As the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) said some time ago - and probably that explains the power these people are able to excercise even inside this Parliament - the United Australia party has been able to get any member of the Labour party it wanted in the past if it was prepared to pay the price. When an honorable member interjected that his present leader had been a member of the Labour party he replied : “ Yes, we paid the price and ive got him”. We should like to know what price was paid.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must confine his remarks to the vote before the committee.

Mr WARD:

– I am merely stating the facts. The Acting Treasurer introduced this subject by saying that the London County Council could not get financial accommodation because it is controlled by Labour men. He also said that the Scullin Government could not get similar accommodation abroad because it was a Labour government. He further stated that if the Labour party were to take control a loan of £75,00(3,000, which falls due next year, could not be converted by a Labour government. What does that mean? It merely demonstrates that the Acting Treasurer, in his desperation to maintain control of this Parliament by his party, will use all sorts of unscrupulous measures in order to intimidate and terrorize the people. Judging by several recent decisions, the people will at least be prepared to accept the Labour party’s policy. I do not think that it would be tragic if Australia were unable to borrow abroad at all, because what happened when the last overseas loan was raised? Did those who loaned the money ship gold to Australia? Did they send, tradesmen to carry out work or ship materials. The overseas financial interests passed on authority tq our own financial institutions to make the necessary credit available to enable the Government to carry out certain works. When the Sydney City Council proposed to construct the Bunnerong power house and was unable to secure financial accommodation in Great Britain, and, eventually, appealed to the New York market - I have this on the authority of an official of the . Sydney City Council all that happened was that the New York financiers communicated with the financial institutions representing them in this country and directed them to make available the necessary accommodation to the City Council. p As a matter of fact the Bunnerong power house was constructed wholly out of materia] produced in this country. Not one brick or bag of cement was imported, and not one tradesman was brought here to carry out the work. Will honorable members opposite explain why the Sydney City

Council was unable to construct that power bouse without the authority of overseas financial interests?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne Ports

– I have been wondering when we will get a Treasurer who will strike a new note in regard to this subject of public loans. Always we hear the same story from the Treasurer. Everybody knows that we have a bank in this country which represents- Australia and all its assets, and everybody knows that we have a Treasury, staffed with men just as efficient as the staffs of any financial institution in any part of the world. We know that our public indebtedness’ is climbing steadily year by year, and that it must continue to do so as long as we persist in the present orthodox method of finance. We are not making any real headway, whether the country is enjoying a period of prosperity, or whether it is passing through a slump. We have been listening to a wordy battle between the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), and the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) as to whether Australia’s public indebtedness is £1,200,000,000 or £1,250,000,000. For the sake of my argument, I shall assume that it is £1,250,000,000, on which the yearly interest is about £60,000,000, roughly half of which is paid overseas. If we continue to pay interest at this rate for twenty years we shall have paid a’ sum equivalent to the whole of the debt, and we will still owe the original amount or more. How are we to tackle the problem of poverty in the country when this tremendous drain is going on year after year? We are comforting ourselves just now because things are a little better than they were, but everybody knows that, as long as existing methods are persisted in, the present boom will inevitably be followed by a slump. Our public borrowings represent a debt of -£185 on the head of every man, woman, and child in Australia. The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron), who is a very courageous debater, and is entitled to his opinion just as much as any one else is, said that one Treasurer goes to Palestine for money, another goes to the United States of America, and another goes to England. What does it matter where they go? Everybody knows that the leading banking institutions in the world are controlled by people very largely from Palestine. Those associated with the great banking institutions, no matter what country they come from, are all in the one gang. Everybody agrees that in hig financial operations the banks, like the major oil companies, are all one. On matters of policy they consult with one another, and there is no competition between them. The question is : How are

Ave going to alter the situation?

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– Why was it that the financial institutions in London would not lend money to Theodore, while those in Nev York did ?

Mr.- HOLLOWAY.- Yes, and he had to pay a pretty stiff price for it. The same pressure was brought to bear on him as on the Scullin Government, and on the Storey Government in New South Wales. It was suggested to the Theodore Government in Queensland that if it altered its land legislation, and other legislation of which the financial authorities did not approve, it could get all the accommodation it wanted. Here is an extract from the Industrial and Australian Mining Standard, a conservative paper, which sums up the position very we : -

At the bottom of all the anxieties and worries of the financial world is the skilled operations of the international money manipulator. He is the financial flea that always seems to escape. However much he extracts by way of blood money from all nations, he is never, it seems, too heavily laden to be able to skip out of harm’s way. He is worse than any wheat, oil, coal, shipping, or other pool operator that makes his millions by effecting a “ corner “ in any of the world’s necessities. For he corners that which alone enables peoples to buy these necessities. It is worthy of note that only in time of Avar or worldwide disorganization can the manipulator get his opportunity. But history has shown that the internationalists require an opportunity but once during the lifetimes of several generations”. It would greatly simplify the affairs of nations if the governments of those countries affected would go to the root of the trouble now. It would be a good beginning if nations would, among themselves, so adjust their economic relations as to bring about stabilization where currencies are concerned, rather than leave their affairs any longer in the hands of a class who, at best, are men without a country, and whose business it seems to be to live their lives in creating world chaos. The money changers of old were turned out of the temple. Those who seek to manipulate the currency for their own profit do so through their newspapers and the bought influence of public men in high places. Such methods call for repressive measures. The choice lies between revolution and the gaoling of certain men who ure a menace to the peace and safety of all countries. There can be no question of postponement. Immediate action is imperative.

The director of the last International Labour Conference at Geneva, expressing, not his own opinion, but the general opinion of the conference, made the following statement : -

The future of social and economic policy has undergone a radical change. To the conviction that governments must intervene to ward off or to attentuate depressions is added the belief that if the secrets of a new technique can be mastered they can take effective and appropriate action. As Mr. Keynes has put it, “ all of us - politicians, bankers, industrialists and economists - are faced with a scientific problem which we have never tried to solve before.”

All these authorities say that we must make a fresh start. We cannot go on year after year piling up debts, and paying interest which is sucking the life blood from the country. The last Labour Government did make an effort in a small way to tackle the problem. It introduced legislation which it was told by the Commonwealth Bank Board was necessary to enable the bank and the Treasury to carry out the new policy. I remember that Sir Robert Gibson, when he met Cabinet, was asked whether the bank was able to carry out the policy of the Government; whether there was anything impossible in the proposition. He replied, “ No, the bank can do it, but unless Parliament passes legislation to give me authority, I will not do it “. He did not believe in the Government’s policy, ‘ and he was quite honest about it. He told me so himself dozens of times, and he was a personal friend of mine for over twenty years. He said that he did not believe in the Commonwealth Bank entering into trade. He considered that the bank was not like a private bank. In his opinion, it should not become a trading bank, but it should be a back-stop to the other banks. The present Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page), did the right thing in 1924 in order to assist the primary producers. He got the Note Issue Department of the Commonwealth Bank to print an extra £15,000,000 in bank notes. He put them in the vaults of the bank, and then called in conference the authorities in charge of the private banks,, who had said that they did not feel justified in making further advances to the primary producers, and said to them, “ I will give you the security to make all the loans that are wanted. You can draw on these notes at 2^ per cent., and lend out the funds to the primary producers until the limit is reached.” Those notes were to be considered as sovereigns and four notes could be advanced upon each, which permitted the banks to loan up to £60,000,000. The private banks took up about £2,000,000 worth of those notes, and then their directors woke up like sensible men and said, “ Why should we take up these notes, and pay 2-J per cent, for them when, knowing that the security is there, we can lend to the primary producers without paying any interest at all to the Commonwealth Bank.” I suggest that that cannot be contradicted. In fact, were he present now, the Acting Prime Minister would admit it ; he would say, in effect, “ I saved the country by taking such action “. And, personally, I agree with the action he took. *[Leave to continue given. * At that time he did the right thing, but the difference is that he took such action in the interests of his special friends, whereas, to-day, he will not do it again in the interests of the country as a whole. If the Government continues its present policy, we shall never solve our poverty problem. In fact, with the cessation of industrial activities now being carried on in this and every other country in preparation for war, our present period of prosperity will end, and the resulting slump will be worse than the last one we experienced. Every one must realize that no country can go on indefinitely storing up millions of pounds’ worth of public food supplies, armaments and munitions ; that sort of thing must come to an end. The only way to solve our difficulties in this respect is to break new ground by utilizing the Commonwealth Bank to finance our services rather than continue to pay £60,000,000 annually in interest.

Mr McEWEN:
Echuea

.Speakers on the opposite side of the chamber have shifted their ground so frequently during this debate that the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) will find it extremely difficult to discern exactly to what charge, or charges, he must reply on behalf of the Government. In the early stage of this discussion the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) charged this Government with having increased the national debt of the Commonwealth by hundreds of millions of pounds.

Mr.Forde. - I said that from June, 1931, to March, 1937, the total public debt of the Commonwealth increased by £137,000,000.

Mr McEWEN:

– Upon that statement the honorable member attempts to lay a charge against this Government that, during the period to which he has referred, the total debt of the Commonwealth increased by about £100,000,000. An examination of the national debt position during the regime of this Government and its predecessor discloses that the national debt, so far as the Commonwealth itself is directly concerned, has not increased at all, and by what method the honorable member can lay a c harge against this Government by quoting the sum by which the States’ share of the national debt has increased, I am unable to fathom. He has certainly failed to convey his line of reasoning to us. Thus, having regard to the incoherence of the charges which have been made against this Government by honorable members opposite, it has nothing to reply to.

I cannot allow to pass unchallenged several loose statements which have emanated from honorable members opposite. One thing which has struck me more than anything else during this debate is the astonishing situation of members of the Labour party endeavouring to charge the Commonwealth with having increased the national debt of the Commonwealth, whereas such a charge must necessarilyrelate to the States’ share of the national debt, and, at the same time, failing to retract the Labour party’s age-old policy of constructing public works from loan money, is one plank of its platform in respect of which that party has been consistent right throughout its history. Labour has invariably advocated the construction of public works from loan money, and an examina tion of the expenditure of Labour governments, State or Federal, in this direction will, without exception, disclose that they have consistently applied that policy. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) declared, in dismay, “ How long are we going to permit this constantly ascending rise in our national debt?” The answer is simple: Just so long as the Labour party continues its policy of constructing public works from loan moneys. Incidentally, I point out that that policy is not discreditable, because, through it, governments merely apply in national finance a principle which individuals adhere to in the sphere of trade. If, in his business transactions, an individual feels he can profitably invest money in some capital expenditure, he does not hesitate to borrow the money required for such an undertaking. But what is regarded as normal behaviour on the part of the individual, and sound practice on the part of a company, seems to be regarded in some quarters as a heinous offence when practised by a government. We find that from 1932 to 1936, the national debt of the Commonwealth and States increased during the regime of the present Government by £75,000,000.

Mr Beasley:

– But this is 1937.

Mr McEWEN:

– I am quoting the latest figures, Even the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) would not wish me to quote imaginary figures. If he, or any other honorable member, is able to quote the public debt at the end of a year which is not yet finished he possesses some ability which I do not possess.

Mr Beasley:

– I quoted the Statistician’s figures.

Mr McEWEN:

– I point out that from 1932 to 1936 the national debt increased by £75,000,000. Of that sum £21,000,000 has been applied to meeting deficits of State governments and the balance, £54,000,000, has been expended on public works from loan moneys which have been raised over that period.

Mr Stacey:

– By State Governments.

Mr McEWEN:

– Yes, by State Governments. Now we are confronted with the spectacle of honorable members opposite quibbling over the expenditure of loan money on public works in pursuance of a policy designed to ameliorate unemployment. No more comment, I suggest, is necessary on that subject.

In his remarks, however, the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) delved into fairly ancient history and launched a most unjustifiable, and illogical, attack on the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page).

Mr Beasley:

– It was not unjustified.

Mr McEWEN:

– It was. In justification of some of his remarks the honorable member quoted things which he imagined had occurred in London in conversations between people, most of whom are now dead. He quoted that paragon of virtue, Mr. Theodore, who is now at least politically dead, in “order to reveal what transpired between Mr. Theodore and a Mr. Nivison who, very fortuitously, so far as the honorable member’s argument is concerned, is dead. He also quoted a conversation which he had with Sir Robert Gibson, who also happens to be dead. I suggest that it would be fairer to this Parliament for the honorable mem- ber for West Sydney, rather than draw upon either his memory, or imagination, to quote from conversations of some people who .are at least still living. He informed us that the late Sir Robert

Gibson told him, apparently in close confidence, that all of the ills through which Australia was to pass during the depression were due to the fearful short- comings of the Acting Prime Minister. I have a very vivid recollection that . it was during the Treasurership of the right honorable gentleman that our National Debt Sinking Fund was established, that the control of the note issue was taken - out of the hands of Parliamentarians and placed in the hands of the Commonwealth Bank Board, and that the Financial Agreement was established in, order to place the financial affairs of Australia on a more stable basis than hitherto existed. Furthermore, I point out” to the honorable member for West Sydney that, during the time the Acting Prime Minister was in control of the

Treasury, from 1922 to 1929, the portion of the national debt incurred by the Commonwealth Government itself increased by only £20,000,000 as com- “ pared with an increase during the same period of the share of the States collectively of £259,000,000 representing loans raised to construct public works, and, I remind -the honorable member, many of those State governments were Labour administrations. Despite these facts, however, he tells us now that the late Sir Robert Gibson informed him - in close confidence - that all the ills which the Commonwealth was to pass through during the depression were due to the shortcomings - he led us to infer that the late Sir Robert Gibson would have preferred to use the term machinations - of the Acting Prime Minister. The relevant figures completely rebut the honorable member’s charge. Any Labour member of Parliament who accuses this, or any other government, of increasing the national debt through raising loan moneys for expenditure on public works and, at the same time, continues to advocate a similar policy on behalf of the Labour party, is guilty of chicanery.

Mr Ward:

– ‘Which honorable member has done that?

Mr McEWEN:

– The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) and, by innuendo, every honorable member opposite who has spoken in this debate to-night.

Dealing with an important aspect of Commonwealth loan finance, I direct the attention of the Government to the fact that last year this Parliament enacted legislation to give effect to a major point of policy, namely, the rural debt adjustment scheme. The States have had delegated to them the task of carrying the operation through in detail. The Commonwealth undertook to raise loan moneys to be handed to the States for the implementation of this policy. Apparently, it gave to the States the right to say how much should be raised for the implementation of its own policy. We find that in the matter of rural debt adjustment the policy of the Commonwealth sometimes comes into conflict with that of the States. Where there is such conflict, I should say that the Commonwealth should make up its own mind as to the manner in which its policy should be developed, and should not hand over to the States the unchallengeable right to declare how much it should raise for the implementation of that policy.

Henceforth, the Commonwealth should take a firm stand in that regard at the Loan Council.

Mr BEASLEY:
“West Sydney

– In his defence of the right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page), the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. McEwen) has been very interesting. It is remarkable that such a defence should be made by one who gained a seat in this Parliament as the result of his criticism and condemnation of the policy and the methods pursued by the right honorable gentleman while he was Treasurer of the Commonwealth.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order ! The committee is not considering the entry of the honorable member for Echuca into this Parliament.

Mr BEASLEY:

– Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, the election of the honorable member to this Parliament’ has enabled him to make the observations to which we have just listened. I am mindful of the fact that in his early days as a member of this legislature he had on the business paper for months a motion directing attention to the financial policy and methods that were being applied in this country, and the necessity for drastic alterations. As a matter of fact, the honorable gentleman has taken many flights into the realms of the Douglas, Credit theory, in advocacy of his viewpoint, and it is more than likely that his arguments along these lines had considerable weight with the primary producers in his electorate.. I like to note a little consistency in these matters. The honorable gentleman might have pursued his previous arguments in this House to their logical conclusion in this particular matter.

The argument that the major responsibility for the national debt rests with the States may be answered in a few words. The attitude of the Commonwealth towards the States has largely been responsible for the contempt in which it is held by many people to-day. It has invaded every field of taxation . and has thus prevented the States from raising the revenue which they badly need. It has left to the States such matters as food relief, unemployment, education, health, and everything else that counts in every-day lives of the people. Therefore, the responsibility for the increase which has taken place in the national debt must be shared by this Parliament. It is useless for the honorable member to endeavour to mislead. It is a fact that the national debt has increased by over £100,000,000. It is remarkable that when the Commonwealth Statistician’s figures favour the arguments of honorable members opposite they are accepted without question. We have produced to-night the figures of that gentleman in regard to the national debt.

Mr Paterson:

– Does the honorable member suggest that this Parliament is. responsible for an increase of the States’ debt?

Mr BEASLEY:

– The honorablegentleman is aware that this Parliament must accept equal responsibility with thenational debt incurred by the State parliaments on account of its failure to carry its equal share of the social requirementsof the people of the States. I repeat that the Commonwealth plays an important part in all of these matters, and that, fur- thermore, it has left to the States the re- sponsibility for what goes to make up our social and economic life.- As a matter of “ fact, this Parliament practically folds its arms and sits idly by, because of which it is not popular with the general community. In the last few years I have become convinced because of thisfact that there is a greater tendency towards the maintenance of State parliaments than towards centralization in governments and the abolition of those parliaments. I say again that the .Statistician’s figures prove conclusively that, during the life of this Government, the national debt has increased by over £100,000,000, and that the Government must -accept responsibility for - that increase. Therefore, the Opposition has sustained the point that it sought to make, notwithstanding any argument about overseas borrowing or anything - else.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

– What strikes one as astounding, not only in this Government, but also in the Bruce-Page Government of some years ago, is the shirking of responsibility - and the placing of it on the shoulders of” others. When I hear individuals like my honorable friend the member for Echuca . (Mr. McEwen) allege that the States are responsible for the piling up of the public debt, I am reminded of the fact that this Parliament alone has the power to rectify the position, and that it alone has been responsible, under successive anti-Labour governments, for making almost impossible the financial position of the States. No man is more responsible for that than the right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page), who has been the evil genius, particularly in relation to finance, of both the BrucePage Government and the Lyons-Page Government. The Labour party, established the Commonwealth Bank as a means of rectifying the position. Had it operated as that party intended, and had that- party continued in office, there would not have been a national debt to-day. But what did this Government do? Instead of making that institution the means whereby the nation could finance public works free of interest, it tightened up everything and allied it with the associated banks. When the Commonwealth Bank Act was amended, and the right honorable member for Cowper gave to the private banking institutions the right to draw on the funds of the Commonwealth Bank, he placed in the hands of the associated banks a power which they wielded to fleece the primary producers of this country, whom he is supposed to represent. Under that amending legislation, they were given the right to draw from the Commonwealth Bank from £20,000,000 to £25,000,000 at an. interest rate of 2 or 2-£ per cent. It was said that that was necessary to finance seasonal requirements for the marketing of our primary products, mainly wool and wheat. What happened? The associated banks expanded credit in this country by from £40,000,000” to £60,000,000, and did not draw one note or pay one penny in interest; but they thereby accommodated primary production, and charged the primary producers interest on that accommodation. That is one of the reasons for the present huge structure of debt on the wheat and wool lands of this country.

The right honorable member for Cowper also established what he called ;a sinking fund. He said that he had invented it. I point out to him that Pitt invented it before he was born. That statesman established a sinking fund in England to wipe off the debt which had been incurred during the Napoleonic wars. The right honorable gentleman has told us in his budgets that he reduced the nation’s indebtedness by from £25,000,000 to £27,000,000. That was only camouflage to make the people believe that the country’s debts were being paid. It is true that indebtedness to an amount of about £27,000,000, on which interest at the rate of 4£ per cent, was being paid, was wiped off; but at the same time new money to an amount of £97,000,000 was borrowed, and the interest which it carried was about 6 per cent. That “was the achievement of the right honorable gentleman while he was Commonwealth Treasurer. The national debt is not being reduced. On the contrary it is being nearly doubled every ten to- twelve years. The Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) laughs. I remind him that the loud laugh bespeaks the vacant mind. An examination of the statistics will show that the national debt has nearly doubled itself every ten or twelve years. That is a fact which the right honorable gentleman cannot deny.

The States are forced to borrow, simply because this Parliament resolutely refuses to create the instrument it has the power to create in order to finance without continual borrowing. They have no other avenue; they have to borrow. On the Loan Council the Commonwealth wields the greatest power and decides the loan requirements of the States. During the Gwydir byelection campaign the Deputy Premier of Queensland, who represented the Government of that State at the last Loan Council; said that the Commonwealth Bank had endeavoured to restrict the amount to be raised on behalf of the States. The Government of New South Wales had reduced by £1,000,000 the amount which it said was necessary to meet its normal loan requirements. His statement was that there was a tightening of conditions in respect of loan requirements following direct instructions by the Commonwealth Government to the Commonwealth Bank to reduce the amounts to be made available to the

States, .because the Commonwealth wanted additional money to carry out its defence programme. Doubtless, half the money to be expended on defence will be sent overseas. The action of the Commonwealth Government has forced the States to borrow money, thereby increasing their debts. But whether a debt is incurred by the Commonwealth or by the States, the fact remains that the same people have to meet the interest on the money borrowed. The Commonwealth Government acts as if the States were foreign authorities; but I remind the Minister that if the position of the. States is worsened, that of the Commonwealth is made worse also. In any case, the major responsibility rests on the Commonwealth. The Prime Minister is continually stressing what he regards as the essential need to follow orthodox methods of finance, but I tell him and his followers that, so long as those methods are followed, the present unsatisfactory conditions will continue. Every economist of standing has issued a warning as to the likelihood of a breaking down of the existing financial structure, and has pointed out that the present so-called prosperity is due to increased activity in the making of armaments. When the present boom is over, the position will be worse than it is now. Such things are inevitable under the existing system. To-night, the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page) has been praised by some of his supporters, but I remind the right honorable gentleman that his erstwhile colleague the honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett) aptly described him as “ the most tragic Treasurer Australia has ever known “.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of External Affairs.

Proposed vote, £2,110.

Mr. LAZZARINI (Werriwa) [1.35 a.m. - Each month the Department of External Affairs issues a publication entitled Current’ Notes, which, from the first line to the last line contains propaganda setting forth the policy of the Government in regard to external affairs. I should like to know if this publication is issued at the expense of the public. If so, the department is using public moneys for purely political purposes. Other than as a means of spreading Government propaganda, the articles are not worth the paper on which they are printed. If this kind of thing is permitted, there is no knowing where it .will end; every Minister will be issuing pamphlets purporting to contain information of value, but in reality, containing only political propaganda. I should like to know whether this propaganda is paid for out of party funds received from wealthy interests supporting that Government, or out of public funds. If it is issued at the public expense, I regard the action of the Government as the quintessence of political immorality.

Mr MENZIES:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · UAP

– The Current Notes issued periodically by the Department of External Affairs are paid for out of the departmental vote. Their publication is a matter upon which I should have thought most honorable members, including at least several members of the Opposition, would have congratulated the department. In the past one complaint against the Department of External Affairs was that it did not supply the people with sufficient information regarding happenings overseas. Accordingly, the Minister decided that from time to. time the department should publish direct information as to what was going on in the various fields of foreign affairs with which Australia is concerned. The supply of that information has afforded a great deal of satisfaction. The publication has been welcomed by the press throughout Australia; I myself have been assured by the representatives of many newspapers that the authoritative information set out in the Current Notes is invaluable to them in commenting on foreign relations for the benefit of the public. I make no apology for the fact that the information is issued at the publie expense. The making of prophecies is usually not a wise or profitable proceeding, but I venture to predict that should a Labour government ever again come into office in the Commonwealth, the Minister for External Affairs in that administration will continue the publication of those “ notes.”

Mr. BRENNAN (Batman) [1.40 a.m.’J. - I offer no objection to the publication from time to time of statements dealing with foreign affairs. Indeed, only to-day I referred to the necessity for statements by Ministers regarding such matters being up to date and published, if at all, in this chamber from day to day as the information becomes available. I pointed out, moreover, that the statement made to-day by the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs, contained no information which had not already been published in the press, or otherwise made available to members, in some instances, several weeks ago. I do not wish to appear discourteous to the Minister, but to me, at least, his statement today was entirely useless, because it was out pf . date. I see jio reason why the department which is in daily communication with external sources of information, should not keep Parliament informed, from day to day, of what is happening throughout the world. I have noticed that the Current Notes issued by the department invariably set out what the British Government is doing, what other European governments are doing, what communicatons have passed between governments, and what military .movements have taken place. My complaint is that never by any chance does the Government toll us what the Australian Government is taking the responsibility for doing. I am becoming suspicious that the Government has a policy in regard to external affairs, which it does hot disclose to Parliament. In my opinion, that policy is one of “ ditto “ to whatever the British Government says. The Commonwealth Government has no responsible policy for Australia in regard to foreign affairs. I do not complain about the expenditure of money in circulating information regarding happenings outside Australia, but I cannot treat the documents which are supplied to us as being unbiassed and reliable statements of fact. The matter is one of tremendous importance. “We have no Minister in this Parliament cognate in character with the Foreign Minister in the British Parliament ; but we know that this Government has a foreign policy. I suspect that it is not an Australian policy, but a policy adumbrated by another government and another parliament. Perhaps we shall have an opportunity on a more appropriate occasion to consider how far the Government is taking responsibility for Australia and how far it has ceded its responsibility to another power. It seems to be thought that when we deprecate the fact that the British Government is determining the foreign policy of Australia, we are in some way disloyal to what some honorable gentlemen are pleased to call the imperial -connexion.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– The honorable member does not sound very friendly to it.

Mr BRENNAN:
UAP

– It would be a very good thing for honorable members opposite if they could understand that it is not a question of disloyalty to the Commonwealth connexion, using the word “ Commonwealth “ to apply to what is now known as the “British Commonwealth”; but it. is a matter of the Australian Government being, in a political sense at least, so renegade to its duty and responsibility to this country as to seek to shift them on to some other government, which, from its position and the nature of ils electorate, cannot possibly be in a position to legislate for this country as satisfactorily as this Parliament can-. We are surely responsible to our own electorate. We should have a policy of our own, or at least be able to give advice and supply information to those who are to make the policy for us, if we do not do anything else. It is apparently thought that if the Australian Parliament speaks at all on this subject of foreign affairs it is showing an audacity that is unbecoming, in a subordinate legislature ! Our function is apparently thought to be similar to that of a well-trained butler, who says, “ Yes, Sir “, or “ No, Sir “, in polite terms, just as the representatives of the British Government choose to speak on Australian questions. The view of the Labour party is that we should accept the responsibility of making up our own mind on these matters. Later, when we are discussing _ the subject of defence, I hope that it will he realized that our best contribution to the defence of the British Commonwealth of Nations is the adoption of a policy for the effective defence of this part of the Empire. At least we might try to preserve this section of . the Empire for peace, if the rest of the world is to be at war. At least we might do our best for this isolated continent which, standing so far apart geographically, should also be kept equally far apart in substance from the embroilments and ambitions of old world war-makers and old world capitalists. Later we ‘shall have something more to say about defence in, its relation to external affairs.

Mr. DRAKEFORD (Maribyrnong) .1,50 a.m.] . - I agree with what the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) has said with regard to Current Notes. Almost all honorable members appreciate the information contained in this publication. “We on this side of the committee, however, would appreciate the publication very much more if from time to time it defined or delineated Australia’s policy on external affairs. That this is not done is a definite disadvantage. The Government could remove this objection if it cared to do so.

An external affairs subject which has caused a good deal of discussion and criticism is the proposed export of iron ore from Australia to Japan. I have no desire to deprive any nation of the right to buy from ,us raw materials which it does not possess and which we have to spare, but I object to a monopoly being given, to foreign interests over irreplaceable raw materials which we may need for the present and future interests of our Commonwealth. Notwithstanding the answers which have been given to various questions asked on this subject, it appears to me that Japanese interests have been given a monopoly of the now valuable iron ore deposits at Yampi Sound.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Prowse:

The honorable member will not be in order in discussing that subject at any length. The control of the iron ore deposits at Yampi Sound is a State matter.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– I submit that the export of iron ore from Yampi Sound to Japan appropriately comes under notice when we are dealing with the Department of External Affairs. The Government should indicate definitely whether a monopoly has been or is to be granted to Japanese interests in this connexion.

The ‘CHAIRMAN. - I direct the attention of the honorable member to the fact that the Commonwealth Government has no jurisdiction over the iron ore deposits to which he has referred.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– With respect, I point out that the Minister for External Affairs (Senator Pearce) said quite recently -

The Commonwealth is concerned only with the export of iron ore and the admittance of people in connexion with the purchase of the ore.

I therefore seek indulgence to be allowed to deal with the subject.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member may make a passing reference to it as a matter of international policy, but I ask him not to deal with it in detail.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– As the Minister for External Affairs (Senator Pearce) dealt with the subject in the Senate, it undoubtedly has some relation to the external affairs policy of the Government. I wish to make it quite clear that I do not desire that the Australian Government should deprive Japan from getting material which it can get from no other source. There is reason to believe, however, that the Japanese Government not long ago made a survey of world iron resources, including its own resources, and subsequently decided that it would seek supplies of iron ore from abroad in preference to exploiting its own deposits. If this is correct they are holding in reserve their own iron ore resources while exploiting those of other countries further afield. The Commonwealth Government should look into this aspect of the subject. It surely has the right to say whether or not our iron ore deposits should be retained for our own development and use, if necessary. My concern arises from information I have gathered which includes an estimate of the iron ore deposits of Australia made some little time ago by Mr. F. Clements, M.I.C.E., M.I.M.E./M.I.E.E., general manager and director of the Park Gate Iron and Steel Co., Rotherham England. Mr. Clements was the Bessemer Gold Medallist for 1936 of the journal of the Iron and Steel Institute of Great

Britain, and is eminently qualified to express an opinion on the subject. In a work by him called “Blast Furnace

Practice,” his estimates were as follows : -

That estimate indicates that the known iron ore deposits of Australia total approximately 313,900,000 tons. At the rate Ave are using our iron ore at present, it is likely that our known resources will be exhausted in 60 years. I am informed that at the moment products from our iron ore are being exported from Australia to Great Britain. This rather extraordinary situation is probably due to the fact that Spanish sources of supply usually available to Great Britain are at present closed. It is estimated that the Australian resources are being used at present at the rate of 5,000,000 tons a yeal-. On the 22nd June, I asked the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page) a series of questions on this subject. One question was-

Is. there any contract in existence which gives the sole right to a British company or a Japanese company or a British-Japanese com- pany to exploit the Yampi Sound area’ mineral deposits? If so, what is the name of such company ?

The reply I received waI -

The leaseholders, Messrs. H. A. Brasserts and Company Limited, have entered into an agreement with the Nippon Mining Company of Tokyo, Japan, under which the latter company will provide approximately £300,000 by way of loan to an operating company to be formed for the purpose of working the deposits, on tlie understanding that the Nippon Mining Company will take the whole of the output.

I also asked whether a monopoly had been given to any interests. That question

WaS not answered. There is reason to believe that the sole right has been given to Japanese interests to exploit the Yampi Sound deposits, which are probably the best and most extensive deposits of iron ore that Ave have. The Australian public will not quietly accept that situation.

Mr White:

– Who gave the right to the Japanese interests to exploit Yampi Sound?

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– That is not the point that matters. What matters is that

Ave should correct any mistake which may have. ‘been made. The Commonwealth Government, according to the Minister for External Affairs (Senator Pearce), has authority under its external affairs power to deal with, this subject, and to prevent foreign interests from exploiting this particular area if it is contrary to the interests of Australia. The whole situation should be reconsidered, and a complete stocktaking made, particu- larly in the light of the figures I hav given relative to our deposits and our own probable requirements. No foreign power should be given rights at Yampi Sound which it may be difficult later to cancel. Some attempt has been made to compare our iron ore deposits with our supplies of Wool and wheat, but no true comparison can be made. These products can be replaced by our annual productive capacity. Some comparison may be possible between our lead, tin and zinc resources with those of iron ore, but not with our wheat and Wool production. Our known supplies of iron ore are limited, so that no effective comparison can be made in this connexion, particularly as our consumption of it is rapidly increasing.

Mr Nock:

– On whose authority does the honorable member say that our iron ore deposits are being exploited at the rate of 5,000,000 tons a year?

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– The gentleman who supplied certain of this information for me has made a very careful survey of the whole subject, and I believe that his figures as to our rapidly increasing consumption are reliable. We should not fritter away these valuable national assets. It is our duty to see that irreplaceable assets such as iron ore, on which our future development depends so much, are preserved. The information so far supplied by the Government, in reply to questions asked in this chamber, does not tell the full story regarding the deposits of iron ore. I do not know whether the Government is disinclined to disclose the whole of the facts, because of the fear of international complications, but information has been supplied to me which, I think, should be in the possession of honorable members. I wish to place on record the text of a cablegram sent to the AgentGeneral for Western Australia, Sir Hal Colebatch, by the Minister for Mines in that State on the 23rd November,- 1936. It was as follows: -

Will you interview Brasserts Limited, and ask to peruse contract regarding supply iron ore to Japan. After perusal cable me - (1) if contract was duly signed and completed; (2) if it makes provision for other than British machinery to be used at Yampi; (3) if any mention is made of other than British capital to be subscribed.

A reply was received two days later in the following terms : -

In reply to your cable message of the 23rd November, 1936, I have inspected the contract and discussed it fully. The contract was signed in Tokio on the 5th October, 1936, by Brasserts Limited and the Nippon Mining Company. The Nippon Mining Company undertakes to take 200,000 tons the first year, 300,000 the second twelve months, and 500,000 the third twelve months, and thereafter 1,000,000 tons annually. During the continuance of the lease the contract is conditional on Brasserts Limited securing concession from the Commonwealth and State governments of which the following are the most important: - Remissions of customs on importation of machinery of Japanese manufacture to the value of from £300,000 to £350,000, an undertaking by both governments to impose no new taxation during the period of the lease. The company to be granted free use of the land, timber and water rights, &c, the right to domicile and the right to conduct business on behalf of the company, and to a limited number of Japanese engineers, clerks and other assistants. It is intended to use machinery of Japanese manufacture which can be installed in fourteen months. If British machinery is used the cost would be 50 per cent, more, and the installation will exceed two years. It is intended by Brasserts Limited to form a British or Australian company, the bulk or whole 61 the capital to be Japanese. Japan being the only customer it is essential that the capital cost should be defrayed largely by Japanese money, and that the Japanese should be responsible for mining the ore, so that it will be excepted at Yampi. When fully developed the works are expected to employ 500 to 600 Australian workmen in mining and handling the ore alone, under Japanese supervision.

We notice from that cable that the machinery to be used in the mining of the ore is to be of Japanese origin or construction, because this could be obtained more quickly than machinery from Great Britain. I understand that the policy of this Government is to give preference to the products of Great Britain when machinery manufactured in our own country cannot be obtained, but, under the contract to which the cable referred, Japanese machinery is to be employed, and no new taxes are to be imposed during the period of the lease. I believe that an obligation rests on this Parliament and that one of its most important duties is to safeguard the unreplaceable resources of this country. Iron is totally different from wool and wheat which we can grow from year to year. If it is true that we have approximately only 313,000,000 tons of iron ore in Australia, in view of the fact that it is regarded as of better quality than that obtained in most parts of the world, we should jealously guard these valuable resources and that is what I urge the Government to do. [Leave to continue gwen.’] In one of the questions which I submitted to the Government, I asked -

Has the Government given consideration to the matter of reserving the mineral deposits in the Yampi Sound area for development or exploitation by - (a) .Australian interests, or (6) British Empire interests: if so, what decision has been arrived at?

The reply received was as follows : -

At the end of 1935, when this project first came under notice, the United Kingdom authorities were consulted through the High Commissioner in regard to the desirability of reserving these deposits for Empire purposes, and advice was furnished to the effect that -

  1. Iron ore deposits of the world are so extensive that there is no need to considerthe conservation ofYampi Sound deposits for future Empire purposes;
  2. There are other Empire deposits greatly rich much closer to Europe which it is impossible profitably to develop for Empire purposes. Consequently there is no question of the development of Yampi Sound with the aid of the United Kingdom Government.

The word “impossible” preceding “ profitably “ was, I feel sure, intended to read “ possible”, otherwise the sense of the reply is wrong. There are vast resources of iron ore in Newfoundland, but it is of an inferior grade and more difficult to treat, andthe deposits, though nearer to Britain, would be more costly to develop and operate than those at Yampi Sound. Experts have agreed as to the high quality of the Yampi Sound ore, and every consideration should be given to their opinion. We do not desire to create the impression that we object to other nations purchasing the raw materials which they say they need. I know’ that some nations are without the resources which they regard as essential to them. They should be supplied with what they require, but I do not see why the deposits of iron ore in Australia should not be developed by ourselves, and if a thorough stocktaking reveals that we have any to spare, then the ore could be sold as we sell our wheat and wool. It may be said that Australia should have taken advantages of its opportunities when attention was first directed to these deposits, but the position is different now from what it was twenty years ago. It seems to be admitted that there is now a shortage of iron ore throughout the world as well as a fear and a threat that we shall not be able to obtain the raw materials required in manufacturing the things we need, particularly as the armaments race is in progress. Therefore, in the interests of Australia, we should be careful not to give away what we shall not be able to replace. This matter was raised in the British House of Commons by a Labour member, Mr. Ellis Smith. The information supplied to him suggested that Australia could not control its resources of iron ore, and that they should be controlled by the Empire. I have never subscribed to that view, although press comments made it appear that I had submitted that argument. It is true that an investigation has been made as to the iron ore resources of the Empire, but the suggestion that our deposits should be under Empirecontrol came not from me, but from persons who represented the matter to me. The British Board of Trade has been urged to deal with the matter. I have noticed that, according to the press, the secretary of the board has written inreply to the person who raised that issue. I merely sent a copy of that letter to Mr. Smith, so that he could, if necessary, raise the matter in the British Parliament. I believe that the Commonwealth and State Governments should take action. Much information could be placed before them showing the limited nature of our resources of iron ore, and the quality of the deposits. Possibly, the report to be presented to the Commonweal th Government by Sir Herbert Gepp will deal with the subject, but, in view of the knowledge which the Government already possesses, it should reconsider the position, and until it is satisfied that we have sufficient resources at our command to supply our present and probable future requirements and provide a surplus for export, we should forbid exportation, and take steps to prevent a monopoly.

Mr WHITE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · Balaclava · UAP

– In the first place, I point out to the committee that no exportation of iron ore from Yampi Soundhas yet taken place. It is quite untrue to say that the Commonwealth Government has undertaken to remit any taxes, or to admit any machinery of Japanese origin free of duty.

Mr Drakeford:

– I did not suggest that.

Mr WHITE:

– But the honorable member mentioned that somebody in London did. About’ three years ago a joint Japanese- Western Australian deputation waited on me and asked that Japanese machinery for Yampi Sound might be admitted free under by-law, but the application was refused by me. The agreement entered into in regard to the matter is one between the Western Australian Government and a certain company. It would be rather unfair to ask the Commonwealth Government to take steps to prevent export. Does tlie honorable member for Maribyrnong suggest that we also should prevent the exportation of cotton from Australia? Cotton has been exported to Japan on many occasions, and it can be used for the manufacture of gun cotton. Members of the Opposition know that the Scullin Government- put an export tax on sheepskins, but could not remove it quickly enough. State governments should think nationally before they enter into such contracts as that arranged between the Western Australian Government and a private company with regard to the Yampi Sound deposits. If it were desired that Japanese machinery should bc used to carry out any undertaking within Australia, it would be necessary under the Customs Act to give first preference to machinery made in Australia, and, if it could not be obtained in this country, preference would have to be given to British-made machinery; otherwise full foreign duties would have to be paid.

Nevertheless, I agree with the honorable, member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Drakeford) that we should. take stock of, and husband, our resources of iron ore. The investigation, however. i.« being undertaken by the Government. The honorable member may not be aware that the Council foi’ Scientific and Industrial Research is now carrying out a survey regarding the matter. The lease to which the honorable member has referred concerns the Western Australian Government and the contractors, and not the Commonwealth Government. An Australian steel company has licences in the Yampi Sound district. There are abundant resources for them at the moment, but the Government is watching the position, and taking stock of the iron ore available in Australia. It has not granted free admission of any machinery for the workings at Yampi Sound, and has received no application of that kind since the one made some three years ago. It is a pity that a State government should so embarrass the Commonwealth.

Mr Drakeford:

– Has it received any application for the remission of taxation?

Mr WHITE:

– No.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.The decision of the Government to establish a separate and independent department to deal with external affairs is, I think, a wise one, and made necessary owing to the improved status of Australia as a nation. My only criticism of the Government in this matter is that it should have taken this action much earlier. 1 have seen a recent press reference to the Department of External Affairs as our “ infant Foreign Office “. It now has a political section dealing with foreign affairs and international politics, and an international co-operation branch covering the International Labour Office, the permanent Court of International Justice, and the League of Nations. Australia, which is recognized throughout the world ,as a nation, should have agencies through which we can obtain the mo3t accurate information as quickly as possible. Whether we wish it or not, we are forced to take a close interest in international politics. We are compelled to think nationally and internationally, and as time goes on and we think more internationally, we may be able to assist more in the maintenance of world peace. At present there are approximately 200 treaties and 130 conventions in operation between various countries, and it is essential to have representatives in at least the most important countries in order to look after Australia’s interests. Until recently there were few publications which. dealt at length with Australia’s view of international affairs, and while I recognize that Current Notes is published by a government with pronounced political views, it is less biassed than I would expect from a government of its political colouring. The document is prepared by officers from the knowledge at their disposal, and the subjects with which they deal are such that it would be difficult for a government to give false information. In matters of monetary reform, there can be differences of interpretation;, but in international matters, if inaccurate information were disseminated events would shortly expose its falsity. Recently information . supplied by some newspapers has been found to be incorrect, but I trust that we shall be able to rely upon the Government to supply us -with, accurate data at its disposal as frequently as possible. I understand that the circulation of Current Notes has now increased to 300. At the end of last year, the Minister for External Affairs (Senator Pearce) stated that the Government was considering the appointment of diplomatic representatives in countries where Australia has vital interests, instead of having, as it had at that time, a liaison officer in London. Since then Mr. Keith Officer has been appointed to the British Embassy at Washington, and no doubt further appointments of liaison officers will be made in other countries. It is cheaper to make such appointments than to follow the practice of other dominions, which appoint Ministers, as Canada, the United Sta tas of America, France, Japan, and Belgium have done. That dominion has also a trade commissioner’s service and a special resident representative at Geneva. South Africa has ministers plenipotentiary to Italy, Holland, France, Germany, and the United States of America, a trade commissioner’s service, a number of consuls in other countries, and a special representative resident in Geneva. Other dominions are recognizing the importance of keeping in touch with various countries, and Australia must do the same. The staff of the Department of External Affairs consists of young and enthusiastic officers possessing high qualifications, as is necessary in such a service. The department must continue to increase in size and importance. I wish it every success and believe that much good will be achieved by it. I join with the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) who said that the Government has no foreign policy of its own. A nation which confers on a basis of equality with other nations should have its own foreign policy, and not follow blindly in the footsteps of the United Kingdom. In future we shall probably find it better to adopt the policy of the Prime Minister of Canada, who said that that dominion decides important problems for itself, and does not follow blindly the lead of Great Britain.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of the Treasury.

Proposed vote, £131,630.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

– Can the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) give the names of the . Commonwealth Treasury officials attached to the staff of Australia House, and state precisely the nature of their work? Do they work in co-operation with the Secretary at Australia House, who is an exofficial of the Commonwealth Treasury, but whose salary is now, I presume, paid by the Prime Minister’s Department? What officials of the Commonwealth Treasury assist him at Australia House? I presume they arrange the data required by the High Commissioner in connexion with the conversion of loans. I take this opportunity to correct a wrong impression created by the Acting Treasurer earlier in this debate when he accused me of stating inaccurately the increase of Australia’s national debt. The figures I cited were obtained from the Treasury this morning. I compared the total national debt of the Commonwealth and State Governments at the 30th June, 1931, with the amount at the 30th March, 1937 - the latest date for which figures are available - and showed that the total of Commonwealth and State debts had increased by £107,000,000. I asked how long we were to continue adding to our national debt. I also said that without accepting the doctrine that there is an unlimited field for expansion of credit by the Commonwealth Bank, I was confident that much could be done in the direction of relieving the Australian people from the increasing burden of taxation due to the increasing public debt. I also quoted from the platform of the Labour party, which stands for the financing by the Commonwealth Bank, at the actual cost of issuance and services, of public works at not less than award rates to aid national development. I was then asked by the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. McEwen) if the Labour party would close down on all loan works which give work to the unemployed, and I replied, “Most decidedly not; I have never made any such suggestion “. The Labour party’s platform provides for financing public works without increasing further the public debt of Australia. The Leader of the

Opposition (Mr. Curtin) and I are not at variance on this point. As a matter of fact the honorable member played an important part in framing that platform which was revised at the Adelaide conference. The Commonwealth Bank is the only institution in Australia that has a legal right to issue credit on the assets of Australia; and, as I stated earlier, that bank could assist to a much greater extent than it has by issuing credit for carrying out for the Commonwealth and the States necessary works that are now financed with loan money. [Quorum formed.’] Some years ago the chairman of the Commonwealth Bank Board said that if war broke out to-morrow £100,000,000 could be made available for defence purposes, and I therefore contend that at least £30,000,000 per annum could be provided by the Commonwealth Bank to carry out necessary developmental works in Australia. There is a great difference between that proposal and the suggestion of those honorable members who criticize me because I said that our national debt lias increased by £107,000,000 between the 30th June, 1931 and the 31st March, 1937. Is this increase of the national debt, which is costing Australia £44,580,000 annually in interest, to go on indefinitely? The Labour party believes that credit, within limits, could be made available by ‘the Commonwealth Bank at the cost of issue. I was surprised to read in the Melbourne Argus the following paragraph concerning the Labour party’s financial policy:–

You can manufacture money while you wait ami circulate the proceeds among the expectant community. Labour’s fantastic schemes of economic reconstruction are based on the related assertion that money can be drawn from the air by the expansion of credit.

One would expect a stupid fabrication of that kind from a newspaper that supports the continuation of the present system of banking and the manipulation of credit in the interests of the money lending class.

Mr PATERSON:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · CP from 1922; ST CP from 1937; LCP from 1940

-7-What does the honorable member mean by cost of issue, plus administration?

Mr FORDE:

– The bank must provide premises and pay its staff. It cannot carry on its business for nothing. r.2l]

Mr Paterson:

– What does the honorable member regard as the cost of issue?

Mr FORDE:

– Some small charge would have to be made, but even if it were 2% or 2£% it would be better to pay that to the Commonwealth Bank than go cap in hand to the moneylenders and pay up to 4 per cent. We know that half the profits made by the Commonwealth Bank go towards the liquidation of the public debt, and it is better that interest payments on the loans should be devoted to that purpose than that they should go into the hands of the shareholders of .the private banks. The Labour party is the only one that offers a practical solution of the problem of the country’s ever increasing indebtedness.. The present Government, although it has a majority in both Houses of Parliament, has no remedy whatever to offer. It asks the private banks what they think ought to be done, and the banks, of course, will not make any suggestions which, if carried out, would be likely to reduce their profits. I do not wish to make any reflection on the Australian High Commissioner, Mr.. Bruce, but I will not admit that all the savings in our interest bill are due to his efforts. The aggregate interest savings to June, 1936, on Australian conversions carried out under the management of the Scullin Government amounted to more than £38,000,000. Of that sum £17,285,000 applied to Commonwealth loans. The aggregate interest savings to June, 1936, due to London conversions carried out by Mir. Bruce on behalf of the Lyons Government amounted to £8,000,000, and of that sum £1,600,000 applied to Commonwealth loans. We hear much boasting in the press of Mr. Bruce’s savings of £8,000,000, but hardly a word is said about ‘the Labour Government’s interest savings of £38,000,000. Unhappily, the Labour Government did not live to enjoy the benefit of its activities. Furthermore, when Mr. Scullin was in London, he made strong representations to the British Government to have a substantial reduction made in the charges on our overseas war debt, with the result that the principal repayments were suspended. Later, under the Hoover moratorium, which was completed before the Scullin-

Government relinquished office, the interest on that overseas war debt was also suspended. This gave relief to the Commonwealth budget alone, and amounted to £27,745,000 up to June, 1936. From these facts it will be seen that the Commonwealth Government has enjoyed aggregate savings in interest and sinking fund charges for the five years from 1931-32 to 1935-36 amounting to £46,600,000. Only £1,600,000 of that saving was due to action by the Lyons Government. The cost of , loan conversions includes commissions, brokerage, advertising, &c The Lyons Government converted £182,000,000 at a cost of £3,000,000. The Scullin Government converted £536,000,000, the conversion costs being only £81,000.

Mr Paterson:

– Does the honorable member suggest that there is any parallel between a conversion in London, and one carried out by legislation in this country ?

Mr FORDE:

– I suggest that while the interest rate of £3 10s. 2d. per cent., at which the London loans were converted, is an improvement on the previous rates, they are not so wonderful when we remember that the British Government converted £2,000,000,000 at 2£ per cent., and that loans for India and Argentina were floated at 2 per cent, at a time when the Australian Government was paying 4 per cent, on some loan3, and was paying an average rate of £3 10s. per cent. The Acting Treasurer, with that air of superiority which he sometimes assumes in this House, said that the figures which I quoted were altogether wrong, and that the increased indebtedness of the country was only £68,000,000. As a matter of fact, the figures I quoted wore not mine; they were prepared by the Commonwealth Treasury to show that the indebtedness of the country between the 30th June, 1931, and the 31st March, 1937, had increased by £107,000,000. The Labour party does not desire to condemn the States for the borrowing they have done; they have no alternative at present. The Commonwealth Government is the only one in Australia which has power to legislate in regard to banking and finance. ‘ That power will be exercised after the next election.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.- I desire to bring under the notice of the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) a suggestion that income taxpayers should b*; permitted an allowance in respect of unemployed children over sixteen years of age. This is a fair and reasonable request. I have myself had three unemployed children over sixteen years of age, and my position is not unique. Seeing that an allowance of £50 is made for each child up to the age of sixteen years, it is surely even more necessary that one should be made in respect of those children’ when they pass the age of sixteen if they are still unemployed, because the cost of their keep is mounting all the time.

When certain emergency legislation was passed in 1931, imposing special cuts in order that the budget might be balanced, the people were promised that, as soon as the finances of the country permitted, those disabilities would be removed. - Instead of that being done, bowever, we find that substantial remissions of taxation have been made to some sections of the community which had suffered no special hardship, while other sections, which had been called upon to make sacrifices, received no relief whatever. I have in mind particularly the maternity allowance. This was originally paid to mothers, so that they mightbe able to receive proper medical attention during the time they most needed it. It was never the idea that it should be a charity payment, but was regarded as a. proper recognition of the service which mothers rendered to the nation. Then the act was amended, providing that maternity allowances should be paid only in those cases where the earnings of the husband were below a certain amount. That section should be repealed, or, at the very least, allowance should be made in respect of adult unemployed’ children.

Sub-section S of section .22 of the Invalid Pensions Act lays it down that an invalid child of whatever age who is living at home when the father is in employment, even though he may be receiving only the basic wage, is deemed to be adequately maintained. That section was placed in the act in 1932, and it is time it was repealed. I have in mind the case of a man, 48 years of age, who is refused au invalid pension simply because bis father, who is 72 years of age, says that he will not submit any of his business affairs to the Treasury. In other cases parents of applicants receiving .the basic wage have submitted their affairs to the department, and have been refused a pension for the invalid children on the ground that they are adequately maintained. I ask the Acting Treasurer for an explanation on these matters; they are very important. I submit that the time has arrived when, in view of the fact that other sections of the community have benefited from the surpluses of this Government, the people, on whose behalf I have just spoken, should receive some consideration.

Mr NAIRN:
Perth

.- I have much pleasure in favouring the proposed vote for the Department of the Treasury, by whose officers the invalid and old-age pensions are administered, particularly because this will mark the full restoration of salaries of public servants. 1 shall have equal, if not greater, pleasure in voting for a. complete restoration of the invalid and old-age pensions. In the past I supported reductions of those pensions, but always with the reservation that they should be fully restored as soon as the country’s finances permitted. Now that full restorations have been made in all respects, it is time that both the invalid and the old-age pensions were restored to the flat rate of £1.

The definition in the act of permanent and? total invalidity precludes many applicants, whose claims are otherwise bona fide, from receiving the pension. Thoroughly deserving cases of this character have been brought under my notice. I suggest that one defect in this ‘ legislation is that it fails to provide partial allowance for partial disability. That principle is recognized in connexion with soldiers’ pensions, as soldiers suffering partial incapacity are allowed a partial allowance. It should be applied in respect of the invalid pension also. Many people who are handicapped by withered limbs are capable of earning a trifling amount, but the fact remains that they are quite unemployable, and cannot possibly earn anything like ‘a fair living wage. At present these get no consideration at all.

A half pension would be a godsend to them; it would probably be better than a full pension, because they would still be under the obligation of fending for themselves to a certain extent. I hope that this matter will be -carefully considered when the budget is being framed.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– I propose to bring under the notice of the Government several undesirable features of the methods adopted in dealing with applicants for invalid pensions, and some astounding decisions given by medical referees. In order to be able to take full advantage of this opportunity to bring such matters to the attention of the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) I have kept the documents involved. In one case, the application of a man who was recently retired .by the Sydney City Council as being unfit for further service, after having been sixteen years in the employ of the council, was rejected on the ground that he was not permanently and totally incapacitated for all classes of work. I understand that he was informed at the Pensions Office that he could undertake clerical work of a light nature. As he had been employed for the last sixteen years in swinging a pick and using a shovel, it must be obvious that he could not possibly perform clerical work. To all intents and purposes he should rightly be classified by the Pensions Department as unemployable for work of any kind.

Another case is that of a young lady invalid, 27 years old, who is so afflicted in both legs that she can only walk with great difficulty and on almost every occasion must be assisted by somebody. She spends most of her time prostrate in bed, because any effort on her part to walk around unaided totally exhausts her. This young lady, who is unable to do any kind of work, is dependent on the small earnings of her widowed mother. I believe that every one will agree that a girl of that age would have been only too anxious to undertake any work she could possibly do in order to lessen the call on her mother’s limited income. Under cross examination at the Pensions Department, she, foolishly in my opinion, said that she would be delighted to undertake light duties if such were offering, and on that statement alone the department rejected her application. When the Acting Treasurer is visiting Sydney, I shall he only too pleased to. place the details of these cases before him so that he can personally investigate them.

Mr Menzies:

– Has the honorable member been in correspondence with the department concerning these cases?

Mr WARD:

– Yes.

Mr Menzies:

– The honorable member can give me the names of the persons concerned in each case?

Mr WARD:

– Yes. I believe that the average medical man would have no hesitation in saying that all of the people to whom I shall refer would qualify for a pension.

Another ease concerns an old lady who, for many years, has been able to attend only to her own housework but, in recent years, has been unable to do even that. She and her husband were obliged to register at the local labour exchange in order to obtain food relief. Each of their cards is marked “ ineligible for employment “, not of any particular character, but of any description. According to the State authorities, both this lady and her husband are unable to do work of any description which might be offered to them. This reference does not necessarily mean arduous work, but covers employment of any kind, yet the Commonwealth authorities refuse to recognize their claim for an invalid pension on the ground that neither of them is permanently or totally incapacitated.

I support the representations made by the” honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) in respect of parents who are called upon to maintain their adult invalid children. In many cases, these children have reached the age of between 30 and 40 years, and because of the fact that their parents will not turn them out, but are prepared to share with them whatever income is coming into the home, the department takes the opportunity to refuse them pensions, on the ground that the income of the parents is sufficient to adequately maintain the invalid. If the practice of asking parents to maintain their children in such circumstances is to be continued, and it is a practice of which I strongly disapprove, the Government should liberal ize the act, in order to provide for an increase of the permissible income of the home.

This legislation also provides that the income of a husband and wife who are living apart, but not in accordance with any court order, decree, or agreement is to be taken as one income, and half the amount is to be counted in respect of the husband and the wife. In a case which I have already brought before the department, a returned soldier received a military pension of 14s. a week, and his wife a military pension of 3s. a week. The wife deserted the husband and, thereupon, the Repatriation Department cancelled the wife’s pension; and the Pensions Department immediately slipped in and, classifying the man’s pension as being in the same category as a single man’s,. decreased his invalid’s pension by 3s. a fortnight.

No doubt, many honorable members have had case3 brought under their notice of applicants for pensions suffering from epileptic seizures. In this respect, I wrote to the Treasurer (Mr. Casey), asking that the regulations be liberalized in order to provide that persons suffering from such an affliction should be considered eligible to receive the invalid pension. The relevant portion of the reply which I received from the Treasurer was as follows: -

Adverting particularly to the question of invalid pension claimants suffering from epilepsy it will be realized that it is scarcely practicable’ to lay down a principle which could bc applied to all such claimants irrespective of the severity of their condition. It may bo said, however, that, as a general rule, sufferers from major epilepsy (Grand Mai) are granted pensions, particularly where there is any accompanying disability as, for instance, impaired mentality. Whore, however, the seizures are of a less severe type (Petit Mai) the decision must depend on the particular circumstances of each case. It is an accepted fact that many (persons suffering from epilepsy are able to perform a considerable amount of useful work, and to earn an appreciable wage. In all of these cases, the matter must be regarded as one which should be left to the discretion of the Deputy Commissioners, who have full power to deal with the requirements of each case and whose experience and judgment in such matters can bc relied upon. I may add that in dealing with these claims, it is the practice to give the claimant the benefit of any reasonable doubt.

I contend that if persons are subject to epileptic seizures, even infrequently, they find it impossible to earn a livelihood. For instance, if they work in the vicinity of any machine the employer dispenses with their services immediately he finds out that they are subject to such an affliction. Thus it is impossible for them to earn anything at all. In respect of one of these cases, the certificate issued by the Sydney hospital authorities concerned reads -

This is to certify that Mr. … is an out-patient at the Sydney Hospital, that he is suffering from Major Epilepsy, and that lie is unable to follow his usual occupation. .

This patient has been treated here for seventeen years for Grand Mai. I am of the opinion that the disease is permanent, and will not permit of his entering into permanent employment at any time.

That is signed by Francis S. Bonar, Resident Medical Officer at the Sydney Hospital. Yet the department still refuses to grant that man any relief by way of a pension.

I come now to the case of a young lady, which I have the permission of her parents to place before the committee. She also was suffering from these seizures. She applied for a pension, but her claim was rejected. I made representations to the department, but without success, the ground for its refusal being stated in the following rejection notice, which I received : -

With reference to your further representations concerning the above-named, I have to say that the medical evidence in the possession of the department discloses that the claimant is not totally and permanently incapacitated for work. She certainly has epileptic seizures, but her condition has responded to treatment, and the seizures are not sufficiently frequent now to totally and permanently incapacitate her for work. I am sorry, under the circumstances, a pension cannot be granted.

A few weeks after the young lady received that notice she died from the ailment from which she was suffering. Particulars in regard to her case can be obtained by the Assistant Treasurer. Although the Commonwealth doctors said that she was not totally and permanently ^ incapacitated, she did not live for many* weeks after she had received the rejection notice from the department.

I shall now refer to a case which I have previously mentioned, in order to show either that the medical men who conduct these examinations are inefficient, or that they do not give the applicants a thorough examination. This man, who resided at 21 Wilson-street, East Sydney, applied for the invalid pension. He was told to report to Dr. Ludowici. Dr. Ludowici diagnosed his complaint as neuritis, and his application was rejected. Shortly after the rejection he became violently ill and was admitted to Sydney Hospital. While in hospital he was X-rayed, and the X-ray disclosed the fact that he was suffering from a growth on the right lung. The medical certificate stated -

Large tumor on the upper lobe of the right lung.

Representations to the department’ were renewed, and eventually a pension was granted because it could not possibly be refused, in view of what the X-ray had revealed; but, unfortunately, this man did not enjoy the pension for any length’ of time, because he died shortly afterwards. In his case, the point that I make is that the Commonwealth medical referee was guilty of a very grave blunder and further, that the department refused to grant the pension from the date of its previous rejection of the man’s claim, although it was evident that, at the time of the rejection, he was suffering from the ailment to which he eventually succumbed.

The next case is that of a man residing at Miller’s Point. He was receiving a pension for a considerable period. Suddenly, the department decided to cancel it on the ground that he was a fit subject for light employment. The certificate by his own doctor shows that there are medical men treating these cases privately who feel very keenly in regard to certain decisions of the department, which are a reflection upon their professional ability. It is signed by Dr. W. G. Cable, Physician and Surgeon (London), practising at the moment at Chelsea., 4S1 Darling-street, Balmain, and reads -

This is to certify that Mr. … of Miller’s Point, who is suffering from gastric ulcer of a permanent nature, is unable to follow any occupation. . . . He has been suffering from this complaint since 1021, and six or so months ago Dr. Benjafield, of Macquarie-street, agreed that the ulcer still existed. I can see no change in his condition and am unable to conceive how the last Government Medical Referee could take it upon himself to declare that the patient was cured without even further X-ray examination. I consider his decision to have been in the nature of a totally unwarranted supposition, and, in the circumstances, suggest that the case be reviewed by a medical board aided by an X-ray report.

That is very strong language by, a medical man concerning the examination of applicants for invalid pensions; but despite it the department refused to alter the decision at which it had already arrived.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Prowse:

– Order! The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

– I join with the honorable members for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), Hunter (Mr. James), and Perth (Mr. Nairn), in commenting upon the administration of invalid and old-age pensions. I have no complaint to make against the officers who administer the act, nor do I think that any other honorable member has; the act and regulations are administered sympathetically by them, but, unfortunately, the department is weighed down with decisions that have been given and practices that have become traditional and unalterable.

The honorable member for East Sydney referred to the practice provided for by the statute, of imputing to the husband a half share in the property of his wife, and to the wife a half share in the property of her husband, the provision being that, unless they are separated by an agreement or judicially, that shall continue. But the commissioner has the power, if he thinks fit, to refrain from insisting upon a judicial separation or a separation by agreement ; if, for example, he is satisfied that the husband cannot be found. No cases have come to my knowledge in which the commissioner has exercised that discretion, but there are cases in which, although spouses have disappeared, and have not since been heard of, ho still refuses to waive the provision relating to separation by agreement or judicially.

There is also” the matter of the interpretation of the words “totally and permanently incapacitated “. The meaning of those words has been expanded by regulations, and the interpretation placed upon them by the department is that, unless it is absolutely unthinkable that the afflicted person may be able to do any class of work, he shall not receive a pension; in other words, if it can be imagined that he is capable of doing any class of work, he is not totally and permanently incapacitated within the meaning of the act and regulations. There may noi be the slightest possibility of any demand for his labour. Take the case of the epileptic woman referred to by the honorable member for East Sydney. Cases have come to my knowledge in which women who frequently had epileptic fits were not acceptable employees to anybody, for the simple reason that no one will have his or her household upset, and the family distressed, by the terror of these fits, which may occur at any time. Yet in spite of that, the department has refused to grant a pension, on the ground that the applicant is not totally and permanently incapacitated, because in the quietness and serenity of her own household, surrounded by sympathetic friends and relatives, she may be capable of doing some kind of work. I submit that, in adopting that practice and stereotyping it, the department is doing what is wrong and unjust.

Another practice of the department which seems to me to be without the slightest legislative warrant is that which insists that property which an applicant for a pension has given away shall be treated for all time as his property. I cannot see where the act justifies such a practice. It provides that a person is disqualified from receiving a pension if he has alienated his property with the object of qualifying for one. A now repealed sub-section provided that a person who, within five years prior to his application, has alienated his property, shall be deemed to retain it. There are cases in which the alienation has taken place much earlier than the five years prior to the application. Although in the cases that I have taken to the department it has said that it did not impute any intention to alienate in order to qualify for the pension, it has yet insisted that for all time the property alienated shall be treated as the property of the applicant. The law of every State recognizes that a gift of property is irrevocable. A person can transfer his land for no valuable consideration and yet be unable to cancel the grant. Nevertheless the department insists that property which has been voluntarily given away by an applicant years before he became an applicant^possibly at a time when he never contemplated becoming one - shall be deemed for all time to be tl 18 property, anu aali partially or totally disqualify him from receiving a pension.

Another matter is the way in which the principle of accumulated property is interpreted to the detriment of applicants. If a claimant for the pension or a pensioner has accumulated property of a greater value than £50, unless it be the house in which he lives, his pension is diminished by £1 annually for every £10 of that accumulation. That is reasonable enough ; but the trouble is that “ accumulated property “ is interpreted by the department to cover such a thing as reversionary interest, which an applicant may not live to enjoy. I have a case in which two persons aged about 70 years are old-age pensioners. The husband is entitled to an interest in an estate, in succession to a person who is younger than he and will probably outlive him. ‘ That estate is not of the slightest value to him because he could not sell it, and in any event its saleable value is insignificant. But the department has been in communication with the solicitors to the estate in England, and has decided that his interest is worth something like £150. Acting on that assumption, they have reduced his pension accordingly. These rigid, inelastic practices should be discontinued, because they are causing great hardship. For years I have been trying to persuade the department to discontinue them, and I hope that as the result of further pressure some of them will be discontinued.

There is another matter which involves an alteration of the statute. I should like the Government to give sympathetic consideration to what I have already suggested, and what has been suggested to-day by the honorable- member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Perkins) ; that is, the relaxation of the provision in section 16 which disqualifies Asiatics unless they are Indians born in British India. That section would disqualify a British Malay born in Singapore or elsewhere in the Straits Settlement, and its retention perpetuates the conditions of a period when we were much more governed by prejudice than we are now. It ought to be repealed.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– I wish to conclude my recital of the case of the man residing at Miller’s Point, in which the private doctor’s certificate was so drastically opposed to the opinion of the Commonwealth medical men. The pension of this man was cancelled on the 11th March, 1937. Although I made representations in the matter, I received an unfavorable reply in May, 1937. I am pleased that his pension has since been restored to him upon the ground that his condition had become worse. In my opinion, the rejection of my representations was done only with a view to protecting from the charge of obvious error its own medical officers. The fact is that, according .to Dr. Cable, whose certificate I have read, this man had been and was still suffering from the complaint on account of whichhe had originally received the pension. The department was not prepared to reverse its previous decision at the time, but after it thought that a sufficient period had elapsed to justify the view that the man’s condition had become worse, it restored the pension. .

During the recent long recess.’ the case of a man who resided at 94 Boundary-street, Paddington, came under my notice. He was receiving an invalid pension in respect of pulmonary tuberculosis. Following a reexamination in October, 1936, he was certified as not being permanently incapacitated for work. The day before receiving notice of the result of the examination, he became -very ill and had to go to the Red Cross Home at Exeter. The reply which I received to my representations stated that the opinion of the Government Medical Officer was supported by an X-ray of the man, and that a sputum test had established the fact that the complaint had been arrested. The department therefore decided that he was not permanently incapacitated for all work. Notwithstanding those medical reports, the man died on the 29th November, 1936, only a few weeks after the Government Medical Officer had certified that he was fit to perform light duties. 1 had previously asked to be supplied with the name of the doctor and all details of the case, and evidently the Government realized that it had made an error, .for it decided to pay to the man’s widowed mother, the balance of the pension to the date of death without any deduction. That the Government came te that decision is evidence that it realized that it should never have withheld the pension. I suggest that if outside medical testimony from two medical practitioners conflicts with that of the Government Medical Officer, the combined testimony should over-ride that of the one doctor.

I have submitted sufficient evidence to show that there is plenty of room for improvement of the department’s methods. I have here copies of eight certificates received by one applicant for an invalid pension, six of which testify that he is totally and permanently incapacitated for work. Nevertheless, he is unable to obtain an invalid pension. Members of the Labour party have asked for a panel of , government doctors to be prepared, so that applicants for pensions may choose which doctor shall examine them. Although that would be an improvement on existing methods it would not bo entirely satisfactory. I believe that my suggestion that the evidence of two outside doctors should over-ride conflicting evidence by one government officer is a better method.

I should like to know what system the department follows in arranging for medical examinations. Is it a fact that the majority of pensioners are sent to those doctors who have a reputation for rejecting applications for pensions? I understand that at the Customs House, Sydney, there are two doctors whose reputation for rejecting applications almost equals that of Dr. Ludowici, who not only rejects a great number of applications which are referred to him, but also speaks insultingly to many of the applicants whom he examines. On one occasion Dr. Ludowici was asked to examine a woman suffering from diabetes.

The presence of this disease can be detected only by a blood test, but Dr. Ludowici, after merely feeling her pulse, declared that the disease had been arrested and that she was capable of undertaking light employment. If the Minister desires it, I shall supply the names of the persons to whom I have referred. I hope that he will give to these matters his personal attention, in order that some measure of justice may be done to applicants for pensions. Unfortunately, in some of the cases which I have brought forward, it is now too late to do anything, for the pensioners have passed away, in some instances within a few weeks of the rejection of their applications. I have mentioned their cases in the hope ‘ that they will lead to a liberalization of the administration.

Sr. HOLLOWAY (Melbourne Ports) [3.22 a.m.]. - I have been asked to bringbefore the Acting Treasurer the treatment of pensioners residing in benevolent institutions. A number of aged people who are now inmates of such institutions were in receipt of pensions before entering them, and in their cases the pension has been continued. But others who were in the benevolent homes before reaching the age of eligibility . for a pension, and others who had not applied for ‘one, have not been granted pensions on attaining the required age. Those in the latter group complain of unfair discrimination. It does appear that differential treatment has been meted out to the inmates of these institutions. I understand that the Premiers of some of the States intend to discuss this subject at the next Premiers Conference, and I hope that something will be done to put all these old people on the same footing.

The Pensions Department regards as ordinary income the small pensions paid by State governments to persons suffering from miners’ phthisis. When Senator Massy-Greene was Assistant Treasurer he decided that these small payments, which are made to enable sufferers to obtain medicine and poultices, should be classified as being similar to sick pay by lodges, and should not be calculated as ordinary income for pension purposes. The number of these sufferers is decreasing, because better methods render miners less liable to contract this disease. I ask the Acting Treasurer to give this matter, also, his personal attention.

Mr MENZIES:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · UAP

– I stall look into the administrative matters which have been mentioned, and I undertake that the suggestions which have been made for amendments of the existing legislation will he considered in connexion with the budget.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) asked what officers of the Treasury are now in London. At the moment, there are no Treasury officers there. Mr. Joyce, who has been in London with the Treasurer, is either already on his way hack or is about to leave for Australia. Mr. Macfarlane is no longer an officer of the Treasury; he is now Official Secretary to the High Commissioner.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Attorney-General’s Department.

Proposed vote, £32,520.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

. I take this opportunity to protest against some of the utterances of the Chief Judge of the Federal Arbitration Court during the recent basic wage inquiry. Reports which appeared in all sections .of the press show that, in reply to a statement by Mr. Crofts, who represented 52 trade unions at the inquiry, that radio receiving sets were now a necessity in every worker’s home, the Chief Judge said that Mr. Crofts should have more sense than to include such luxury items among the necessaries of life. In view of the many occasions on which Chief Judge Dethridge has displayed his venom against the workers-

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).The honorable member may not so criticize the judiciary.

Mr WARD:

– Under what standing order do you, Mr. Chairman, give that ruling?

The CHAIRMAN:

– From time immemorial, the practice has been not to allow criticism of the judiciary; the honorable member may discuss the judgments of the court, but not the. judges.

Mr WARD:

– The statements of the Chief Judge of the Court render him unfit for the position he occupies.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I have already.informed the honorable member that he is not entitled to criticize the judiciary in that way; I shall not again warn him.

Mr WARD:

– In view of the utterance of the Chief Judge that wireless sets were a luxury in a worker’s home, I wish to know whether the Attorney-General is of the same opinion. I also wish to know whether the right honorable gentleman can supply me with information concerning the expenses collected by this learned judge during the last twelve months, and whether he can make any comparison of the conditions enjoyed by this particularly well favoured member of the community with those of the more numerous and more deserving people upon whose conditions he has to adjudicate? I shall be glad to obtain any information on this subject. I again protest against the remarks of the Chief Judge in reply to the representations of the advocate of the trade unions. Such remarks ill befit a person in his position.

Mr MENZIES:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · UAP

– It would be extremely ill-befitting a judge of the Arbitration Court if he refrained from offering his honest opinion on any matter put before him. I do not propose to enter into a discussion as to whether a particular remark of the learned judge was correct or not. He has been put in his important office to determine1 cases, and for any Attorney-General to ‘express, kerbstone opinions as to whether some judgment he had given is right jot not would be improper. i-. :

Mr Ward:

– I referred to remarks of the judge, not to his judgments.’

Mr MENZIES:

– It is perfectly proper for a learned judge in the course of argument to offer any opinion he may have affecting the case under consideration.

Mr Ward:

– Does the Attorney-General agree with the opinion that I cited?

Mr MENZIES:

– I am not offering any opinion one way or the other. I shall not be guilty of the same impertinence to the learned judge as was the honorable member.

Mr Ward:

– Probably the AttorneyGeneral is a member of the same club as the learned judge.

Mr MENZIES:

– The honorable member always gets down to the lowest depths of vulgarity. In point of fact I have not the privilege of belonging to the same club as the Chief Judge of the Arbitration Court. But I have the privilege of knowing that gentleman, and am aware that he has very great ability. He is a man of complete integrity and the highest character.

Mr Ward:

– And he holds very biased opinions.

Mr MENZIES:

– The attack which the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) has made on the Chief Judge is, in fact, a compliment to him. I cannot imagine for one moment that the honorable member for East Sydney could understand and appreciate a gentleman of the calibre of the Chief Judge.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

– I wish to draw the attention of the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) to the fact that there has been no publication of reports of the Commonwealth Arbitration Court since 1932. The work of preparing these volumes for the press consists , of writing head-notes to the particular cases decided and also of preparing ah index. The amount of work involved is not great, but I understand that it is left to be done by the Principal Registrar, in addition to his other multi- ffarious tasks. For this reason, no reports have been published for the last five years. The Australian Annual Digest has of recent years adopted a very helpful practice of reporting Commonwealth Arbitration Court cases, or at least of giving some leading lines showing the subjects dealt with, but as no volumes of the court proceedings have been published since 1932, the Australian Annual Digest for 1936 contains no Arbitration Court references later than 1932. I suggest that the Attorney-General take this matter in hand at once. It is extremely difficult for- practitioners and advocates to keep track of what is being done in the court unless volumes are published periodically.

I also suggest to the AttorneyGeneral that the regulation-making power provided under section 92 of the act be exercised to ensure the posting of awards in places of employment. A condition is inserted in some awards that this shall be done, but it is desirable that it should be done in all cases. It could be done if the power provided in section 92 were exercised.

Another suggestion that I make is that State officers be appointed inspectors under the Commonwealth award. On a previous occasion I asked the Attorney-General to consider calling for a report from the Industrial Registrar as to the wisdom of employing union officers as inspectors under Commonwealth awards, at any rate, in relation to the clothing trade.

I do not think that the AttorneyGeneral was justified in speaking as he did in reply to the remarks of the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), but as one who knows the Chief Judge and has had some experience of his work I wish to say that I agree with the Attorney-General that he is a man who does his work honestly and with great ability. I believe him to be thoroughly fair. I feel sure that the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Drakeford), who has also had some experience of the Chief Judge, would endorse what I have said. The Chief Judge expresses his own opinions in a sort of running commentary frankly and freely, but I believe that he is a man who is always open to persuasion, and endeavours, with the utmost honesty and integrity, to give proper decisions in the matters that come before him.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne Ports

– I wish to bring a matter relating to the Arbitration Court under the notice of the Attorney-General, and, as he will be well informed on what I have to say, I shall not labour the point. For many years the judges, the court officials, and every one who has had business in the court, have complained about the positively dirty accommodation which is provided in the old premises in which the court meets. There is no lift in the building, and I have seen persons with business in the court greatly distressed on reaching the top of the stairs. Sometimes they have just flopped into a chair to get their breath before they could go further. There is a very disturbing noise about the building, and the atmosphere is invariably obnoxious. It is really an insult to the court that it should have to meet there, and many people who go to the court for the first time are shocked by the conditions. I urge the AttorneyGeneral to consider remedying this deplorable state of affairs.

Mr Menzies:

– I agree with the honorable member that the building is quite unsuitable and altogether deplorable.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I hope that the Attorney-General will find some way to remedy the complaints that have been made for so long. The court should be provided with new quarters.

Mr Menzies:

– I hope that it may be possible to do something.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of the Interior.

Proposed vote, £73,750.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– I ask the Minister for the Interior to furnish me with some information respecting the procedure adopted by the department in issuing permits for people to visit Australia. Some prospective visitors obtain permits without difficulty, and others are met with a flat refusal. Some little time ago two gentlemen wished to visit Australia to attend an anti-war conference and deliver a series of addresses, but they were prevented from landing. We were told that this action was taken in consequence of views these gentlemen were alleged to have expressed in speeches made overseas and reported in thepress. I understand that a German named Von Luckner proposes to visit Australia in the near future. He” is no more than a political propagandist. Will the Government consider the reports of speeches which this person has made overseas, before it grants him permission to land? He intends to visit Australia as a propagandist of a bloodthirsty form of government that is not desirable in Australia. I ask the Minister to give me specific information as to the principles which actuate the Government in granting or refusing permits. Many people visitAustralia who are undesirable visitors from the points of view of the Labour party. Is there any consistency in the procedure adopted by the Government in this connexion? If it was right to refuse permits to the two persons to whom I have referred because of speeches they were alleged to have made overseas, it would be logical to refuse a permit to this German who wishes to come here, for he has shown, by his utterances, that he is a bloodthirsty individual.

I heard the Assistant Minister for Commerce (Mr. Thorby) interject a moment ago. This reminded me to ask for an explanation of the reason why the Government decided to allow a certain prohibited immigrant to remain in Australia while it compelled the departure of two other prohibited immigrants who had been resident in this country almost equally as long. By whom were the representations made to the Government on behalf of the wealthy Chinese named Lum Roy ? Why was he allowed to remain here while two other Chinese were compelled to leave the country ? Why was the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson) prepared to allow the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) to see the papers in connexion with this case while denying other honorable members the opportunity to see them? What is behind the action ofthe Go vernment in allowing Lum Roy to remain in this country? Why should not the light of day be thrown upon this case? It seems to me that there is some significance in the fact that this particular Chinese is very wealthy.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

– I ask the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson) to furnish me with a more detailed explanation of the present situation in regard to the entry of foreign migrants into Australia. The” answer that the Minister gave to the question I asked at the beginning of this sitting on this subject was not clear. I am concerned as to whether foreign migrants coming to Australia are obliged to furnish an adequate guarantee that they will be able to support themselves. I also wish to know whether such migrants are admitted only with the approval of the State government in whose territory they wish to live? I always understood that consultation with the State government, was necessary in such cases. Is this so ? I understood the Minister to say in reply to my questions that assisted migration from the United Kingdom had ceased.

Mr Paterson:

– It has not entirely ceased.

Sfr. FRANCIS.- Will the Minister make a full statement on the subject? The replies he gave to my earlier questions seemed to me to be superficial. At any rate they did not clear up the doubts that I had in my mind. A good deal of confusion has arisen, particularly in Queensland, because remarks made by State Ministers are contrary to. those of the Minister for the Interior.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

Has . the Minister noticed in the press that an Englishwoman whom he debarred from entering Australia, although he has since lifted the ban,- is now without the money necessary to pay her fare from New, Zealand to this country, although she had already paid it when she attempted to land here? In my opinion, the Government should at least pay her fare seeing that her present distressed circumstances are due to the ill-advised action of the Minister for the Interior in excluding her from this country. The. Cabinet must share responsibility with the Minister in the matter, and. as one .member of the Ministry has resigned, with the result that the remaining members of the Cabinet are sharing the- forfeited salary, does not the Minister: for the Interior think that Mrs. Freer should be compensated by a payment from this Cabinet fund for the inconvenience: to which she has been subjected?

Mr NOCK:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

I should like the Minister- to say whether a’ condition of the admission of any immigrant is. that he shall have a certain amount of capital or that a bond shall ‘be’ forthcoming for the provision of the ‘.necessary money in order to satisfy the ‘ department that he will not become dependent upon the Government.

Mr PATERSON:
Minister for the Interior · Gippsland · CP

– The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr,. Ward) referred to visitors, and asked under what conditions they were permitted to land. I presume that he referred to alien visitors. The rule is that if these persons have a return ticket in their possession, and sufficient, money to enable them to subsist during the period for which they intend to stay here, they are allowed to land without difficulties being raised. In regard to the attempt some two years ago to prevent a man from landing, the Government took that action; on advice received from the British Government, the procedure was strictly in accordance with the Immigration Restriction Act. As to the reference to von Luckner, no intimation has come to my department that this gentleman proposes to come here. The whole matter rests on no more solid foundation than a mere newspaper rumor, and we have no reason to believe that if this gentleman does come to Australia he will act other than in accordance with what is expected of any visitor. We cannot reasonably prevent a man from landing merely because of some rumor, which may have no foundation in fact.

The honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) asked me a question regarding the admission of alien migrants. I am glad he raised the point, because it gives me an opportunity briefly to explain to the committee the conditions, under which these persons are allowed to land here. After someone in this country has made application for the admission of an alien relative very careful inquiries are made. Certain statements have been made with reference to aliens going to Queensland. If an alien resident in this country nominates a relative and makes application for him to be allowed to come here, inquiries are. made, first of all, of the Queensland police, who are asked to ascertain whether the nominator is a person of sufficient standing and character to be dependable as a guarantor, whether he is capable of providing employment for the newcomer should he promise so to do, and whether such employment will result” in the dismissal of somebody already employed. Further inquiries are made of the police as to the general employment position in the district. Unless my department gets satisfactory replies from the Queensland police on these points, the migrant is not admitted. But we go beyond that, because, if there is an unemployed list in the district, and a number of persons are already on relief, and if we are advised by the . police authorities that permission for another worker to enter this district may prevent the employment of someone who is at present without work, permission is not granted.

The question raised regarding the amount of money which migrants are required to have relates only to alien migrants. The alien who has a satisfactory nominator may come here if he has capital amounting to £50. In respect of an alien who has no nominator, if inquiries overseas satisfy us that his employment in the calling in which he desires to engage will not be detrimental to Australian workers, he may land if he has £200 in his possession. These precautions have resulted in a substantial diminution of the number that has arrived from Italy during the present year. I have not the complete figures up to the end of June, but I have those for the first nine months of the current financial year. It is not sufficient to take merely the gross figures. In order to ascertain the true position we must calculate the net migration by subtracting from the total number who come here the number who leave the country in the same year. The net migration of Italians during the year ended the 30th June last was 1,447. The figure for the previous year was about 1,150, and for the first nine months of the present financial year 510. Yesterday, in answer to a question placed upon the notice-paper, I gave particulars of the number of migrants from various parts of the world during the first four months of this financial year. From those figures it will be seen how greatly British migrants outnumbered those of other countries. Those particulars related merely to the permanent arrivals, not to the net migration. I can assure, honorable members that every precaution is taken, and if Queensland or any other State government can suggest means whereby we could further improve the machinery used in this connexion, the Government will consider its adoption

Mr Forde:

– Allow many British migrants have arrived in the last nine months?

Mr PATERSON:

– According to the figures which I gave in answer to a question, the number of arrivals for the first four months of this year was about 2,800.

Mr Francis:

– Has any protest been received from the Government of Queensland against the admission into that State of foreign migrants, and, if so, what is the nature of the protest?

Mr PATERSON:

– As far as my knowledge goes, the Government has had no such representation made to it. According to the press, Mr. Hynes, the Minister for Labour in Queensland, has said that in many instances which had come under his notice, Italian migrants wore to be found on the relief list, some of them having been in this country for only about five months. Immediately I saw that statement I got in touch with the Queensland Government and asked it to give mc any particulars it could obtain regarding these eases. The result was that my department received a list of five names. Inquiries were made, and it was found that all these persons had been in this country for more than five years, and three of them were ‘ naturalized British subjects. Their wives and children, it is true, had come here more recently, but in no case so recently as had been suggested by Mr. Hynes. In one instance the period of residence- had been nine months, in another eighteen months, and in the other three two and a half years or more.

Mr Baker:

– But how long have the nominators been getting relief?

Mr PATERSON:

– I cannot answer that. Before aliens living here are given permission for their wives to enter Australia, inquiries are made as to the husbands’ financial standing, in order to ascertain whether they are in a position to maintain their families. It should be realized that these men have to maintain their families overseas, and surely it is better that they should spend their earnings in Australia than elsewhere. In the common cause of humanity it is desirable that these family reunions should take place. The Government and the department are most anxious to do everything that can be done to prevent the influx of persons who will become a charge upon the community. The number coming here is substantially less than it was last year or in the year before that ; the influx is a mere bagatelle in comparison with what it was ten years ago.

Mr Forde:

– Suppose a man had eight or nine brothers whom he desired to nominate ?

Mr PATERSON:

– He could not bring ; them here unless the department was satisfied, after inquiries had been made, not only that these men could be provided with employment, but that the giving of employment to them would not result in the dismissal of somebody already employed.

Mr Forde:

– Under certain conditions they could come in.

Mr PATERSON:

– If the department was satisfied, or inquiries through a State instrumentality established that the nominator was able to provide employment which would- not result in the dismissal of some other employees or would not be prejudicial to the employment of persons out of .work, they might be allowed to enter Australia. I can, however, assure the honorable member that , a very large proportion - in the case of Italians more than one-half - of those who have recently entered Australia, are not workers, but are dependants such as wives, or children of those already here.

Mr Nock:

– ‘Has a British migrant to be .in possession of a certain amount of cash?

Mr PATERSON:

– That is not in- sisted upon, but we have to be satisfied that migrants will not become a charge upon public funds.

Mr Ward:

– What about Lum Roy?

Mr PATERSON:

– I have already stated the circumstances under which the Chinese mentioned by the honorable member for East Sydney was admitted to this country.

Mr Ward:

– The Minister said that he would show the papers to the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr PATERSON:

– I am still prepared to do so.

Mr Ward:

– What about the rights of other honorable members?

Mr PATERSON:

– I do not think that such departmental papers should be tabled for the perusal of all and sundry, but as a guarantee of good faith, I stated that I was prepared to show them to the Leader of the party to which the honorable member belongs.

Mr Ward:

– What is the Minister’s objection to supplying full information to honorable members?

Mr PATERSON:

– I have nothing further to add to what I have already said.

Mr James:

– What of the question I put to the Minister?

Mr PATERSON:

– I have nothing to add on that matter.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.- I listened with interest to the statement .of the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson), but he did not put up a good case for the department in endeavouring to explain why so many aliens are being admitted to Australia. For a considerable period it has been the proud boast of this community that our population is over 98 per cent. British’.

Mr Paterson:

– There is about 97 per cent, of Anglo-Saxons.

Mr BAKER:

– It is obvious that that percentage will decrease rapidly, and the fact that it has already dropped by 1 per cent, in a comparatively short period shows that there is something wrong in the administration of our immigration laws. Australia, unlike Canada, South Africa, and some other members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, has a very high percentage of non-alien residents. That being so, we should do all we can to keep the percentage at the same high level. There are few persons in Australia who would have the temerity to suggest that the migration of British-born citizen.-* should be resumed on a large scale until there is no unemployment in Australia.

Mr Paterson:

– It is not being resumed on a large scale.

Mr BAKER:

– There is supposed to be a check upon migration on a largescale. Yesterday afternoon I quoted certain figures published in the press, which can be taken to be accurate, to the effect that, although 50,000 British -persons were admitted to Australia during the last twelve months, the only one who had to submit to a dictation test was a white woman named Mrs. Freer. Over 2,000 coloured persons - excluding Southern Europeans - were admitted during the last twelve months. I believe that 448

Japanese, 300 Chinese, and a number of other nationals have been admitted, but the important point is that over 2,000 coloured persons were admitted to this country by the Government.

Mr Paterson:

– Only for short periods.

Mr BAKER:

– How does the Minister know when they leave Australia?

Mr Paterson:

– We have a complete check over them the whole time. They come in for six months or twelve months under exemption, and if that exemption is not renewed they have to leave the country.

Mr BAKER:

– What is the usual period ?

Mr Paterson:

– Twelve months, but sometimes it is six months.

Mr BAKER:

– What check is kept upon them during the time they remain in Australia?

Mr Paterson:

– We have no difficulty whatever.

Mr BAKER:

– The department has no check on them. . It has the assistance of the State police, who do the work as a routine job for the Federal Government.

Mr Paterson:

– A check is kept on thom by the State police.

Mr BAKER:

– Tes, but when the State police submit a report they do not know whether the Immigration Department acts upon it. The department has a chock upon naturalized persons and certain others, but not upon aliens because i he Aliens Registration Act was repealed by the Statute and Law Revision Act 1934 after having been suspended shortly after the war. The only persons in this country upon whom the department has no check are aliens. Ordinary adult citizens can be checked under the Electoral Act. The Federal Investigation Branch in Queensland is most efficient, and can be compared favorably with any similar body in any other part of the world; but at present that branch is starved, and there are insufficientmen to do the work. During the last eighteen months the staff has’ been increased, but until we have an investigation branch consisting of a sufficient number of officers to do the work instead of it being done by the State police, and provide for the compulsory registration of aliens, the department will not have the slightest idea of what is being done. Britain and other nations require aliens within their borders to register. The Aliens Registration Act, a war-time measure, required all aliens to register with the police and to report their movements and change of address; but that act was suspended soon after the cessation of hostilities. That step was taken largely on the ground of economy. During the war the act was administered by the police forces of the various States, but, when peace came, the States, which hitherto had made no charge, demanded payment from the Commonwealth for policing the act. The total cost could not have greatly exceeded £100,000, and if Queensland provides any criterion the attitude of the States was somewhat shortsighted. Certainly Queensland has suffered considerably through the acf not being enforced during the last five or six years. In Australia we have adopted a method so haphazard that any one maj come into Australia.

Mr Paterson:

– That is absolute nonsense.

Mr BAKER:

– The Minister knows that my statement is correct. Moreover, we have a coastline of thousands of miles, where aliens can be smuggled in without any difficulty. When the Statute and Law Revision- Act was before Parliament, the government of the day said that, unless that act was passed with many others during the rush period at the end of the session, the Navigation Act, which we were .opposing strongly, would have to stand over for some time. A paragraph in the Brisbane Truth of the 13th June read -

As early as last October the .State government made representations to Canberra concerning the loose and lax manner in which Mr. Paterson’s department was administering Australian migration laws.

About January of this year there was an inquiry in northern Queensland by Federal and State officials, and the suggestion was made that some of these aliens are concerned in the white slave traffic, and others are associated with black hand gangs from Italy. Moreover, it was said that they were depriving our own people of work, or were being thrown upon the mercy of the State government. These things have been happening, not only in Queensland, but also in Shepparton, in Victoria, as well as in other States. I understand that inquiries have been made, and that a report has been furnished to Canberra. The report in the Brisbane Truth continued -

Armed with police reports Premier ForganSmith reinforced the demands of his department, whenhe attended the Loan Council meeting in Melbourne. He revealed to Federal Ministersthe scandalous state of affairs which had arisen in North Queensland through neglect and stupidity of the department.

This morning I said that there were supposed to be 100 aliens on the Orama, but according to Mr.Forgan Smith there were 183 on that vessel. By the Orama 183 Southern Europeans arrived at Perth last Tuesday.

Mr Paterson:

– Probably 100 of them were wives and children.

Mr BAKER:

– Yes, coming to live with men who themselves are receiving relief from the State governments.

Mr Paterson:

– That is not the case.

Mr BAKER:

– I maintain that the Minister should give more explicit information in answer to questions. I do not suggest that questions are not answered, but we all know how easy it is sometimes to twist an answer. If one word is left out of the question, the answer may be based upon a literal reading of the question, although the intention of it may be quite different and quite evident. Probably all governments do this sort of thing, but this Government has specialized in it. It is certainly a remarkable coincidence that the number of Italians entering the Commonwealth during the last nine months should be 510, while within four days 503 Southern Europeans have arrived in Australia’, 183 on the Orama and 320 on the Esquilana. This is a matter which is deserving of careful attention. We are entitled to know what happens to these people after they land, and particularly whether they become a charge on any State. Most of us have read a book entitled Alice, in Wonderland, but if the author were alive now he would have material enough to write another book, which he could call Paterson in Blunderland. The Minister has informed us that all these aliens have to prove that they are possessed of at least £50, but is there any check to ensure that it is not the same £50 which is being used over and over again?

Mr Paterson:

– Some of them are required to have £200.

Mr BAKER:

– I know, but I am making it as easy for the Government as I can. Even putting it at the lowest figure of £50, these 503 persons who entered the Commonwealth within the last few days must possess between them £25,000.

Mr Paterson:

– Many of them are women and children.

Mr BAKER:

– Up till now the State police have been performing this job merely as part of their routine duty, but now, when it is discovered that the State of Queensland is paying many pounds in unemployment relief to aliens, no doubt the police, under instructions from the Commonwealth, will keep a closer watch on them. The Minister admits that he does not know for how long many of these aliens have been receiving State relief.

Mr Paterson:

– Surely the honorable member does not expect me to know everything offhand?

Mr BAKER:

– Notice was given of the question, and the Minister, in his own political interests, might have been expected to obtain all the information he could. The departmental officers say that these men have been in the country for five years. That is the period covered by the depression, and perhaps they have been on relief for those five years, and the State government has only just found out about it.

Mr Paterson:

– If it has taken five years to find out, that is a reflection on the State administration.

Mr BAKER:

– The newspaper article continued -

Truth now understands that, checking up on a list of approximately 120 aliens admitted to Queensland during a six months’ period, the police have discovered that at least sixteen of the persons who nominated friends or relatives among this batch, and whose guarantees were accepted by the Commonwealth, are or have been receiving government relief in one form or another.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the nominated persons immediately became a charge on the State. The Commonwealth Government keeps no check in order to learn where these people go after they land. The police make inquiries, and the guarantors say that they will ensure employment for the newcomers, but no check is kept. No one knows whether they continue to reside in the place stated, or whether they go to live somewhere else 1,000 miles away. The article went on -

The ineffectiveness of the Commonwealth’s administration of the migration laws is fully revealed by a study of some of the individual cases which the State authorities have unearthed. Here are some.

An Italian at Halifax, who guaranteed the maintenance of his two daughters, is unemployed, and has applied for sustenance for himself and his daughters. Another Halifax man, who nominated his wife, has received thirteen weeks unemployment sustenance and rations valued at £5 15s. 0d., and in all probability will again apply .for sustenance.

A northern cotton -grower supplied a guarantee in respect of a foreign woman, and this guarantee, although the cotton-farmer was indebted to the Department of Labour and Industry for assistance in growing his cotton, waa accepted. But the nominated foreigner, on arrival, refused to have anything to do with the cotton-farmer, and in all probability would have become a charge upon the State but for marrying another man.

At Dimbulah, .a tobacco-grower,- whose guarantee was accepted in respect of his wife and son, drew farmers’ relief totalling £38, over a period of nine months, and, in addition, applied to the Rural Assistance Board for a loan of £30 in connexion with his farm.

One of the worst cases concerns a foreigner who, since the beginning of 1934, has drawn farmers’ relief rations to the tune of lis. Od. a week, which is the rate for a single man. Yet the federal authorities accepted this man’s guarantee in respect of the admission of his wife.

A Kuranda man, on behalf of himself and wife, who was admitted on his guarantee, has drawn, over a period of two years, farmers’ relief, totalling in excess of £79, while a Mareeba couple have been drawing relief rations since the middle of 1934 - the wife at the rate of fis. Od. a week, and her husband, who nominated her, to the tune of lis. 6d. a week.

In a. Mourilyan case, a nominator obtained eight weeks’ relief work and earlier obtained relief rations valued at £2 12s. for himself and his wife.

The road the Federal Government must take is clear. . . . The Commonwealth must enlarge its investigation branch so as to enable it to keep aliens under constant surveillance, and make its own check upon applications for administration to the Commonwealth and guarantees of maintenance. Australia, like America, must have its own G-men, its own service of federal agents.

Thirdly, the Aliens Act, requiring all foreigners to register, must be revised and replaced on the statute-book to enable the movements of foreigners to be checked and watched.

Fourthly, Australia’s unsatisfactory migration laws must bc overhauled and tightened up along the lines Truth has consistently advocated. Foreigners entering Australia must bc prevented from becoming a charge on State funds and ousting Australians from employment, which is what is happening to-day.

Fifthly, as recommended by the conference of State Police Commissioners at Perth in 1929, arrangements must be made to secure police or similar reports from the alien’s country of origin to prevent foreigners with criminal records being admitted to Australia.

The Minister must have been aware of these newspaper reports. There are in his department officers whose duty it is to watch the newspapers, and to place, before him any matter which has a bearing, on his department. If the Minister has not been notified, those officers are not doing their job, which is to be at the right hand of their Minister to give him information, ‘ and to see that he does not make mistakes. In this instance, it is evident that some one has made a mistake, but I do not believe that public servants, with their life work to deal with, are at fault. This traffic is jeopardizing our relations with other countries, because, under our immigration laws, some foreigners are admitted while others are excluded. It is also jeopardizing the employment of our own people, as well as adding to the burden of taxation when aliens are thrown upon State relief funds. The matter cannot lie overcome by trying to throw the responsibility back on the State governments. This is a Commonwealth matter, and if the State police are not doing their job it is the duty of the Commonwealth to see that it is done. I am not suggesting, however, that the State authorities are not doing their job.

Mr Paterson:

– In a great many cases the recommendation of the police has been against the granting of a permit, and in every one of those cases a permit was refused.

Mr BAKER:

– The State government has no say whatever as to whether a permit should be granted or not; this Government has full power in that respect. In addition State governments do not possess such information as a Commonwealth investigation force would have, or should have, in order to enforce the law. It is essential that these matters should be cleared up because, recently, we have had too many instances of maladministration in this department. For instance, Australia has been made the laughingstock of the community as the result of the Larrakia incident.

Mr Paterson:

– Does the honorable gentleman really believe that the Minister is responsible because the battery of a certain boat goes flat; that is too absurd.

Mr BAKER:

– Is it not British Parliamentary practice that, when a department falls down on anything, the Ministerial head of that department takes the blame and resigns whether he be directly responsible or not? The Minister is the departmental head and if there is any mistake he has to take the major share of the responsibility for it. That is part of British Parliamentary practice and it is the only way in which Parliament can be certain that mistakes will not be repeated.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.- I support the remarks of the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Baker) in respect of the enforcement of our immigration laws. I believe that the restrictions on immigration, enforced during the regime of the Scullin Government, should not have been lifted in any circumstances, and particularly does this observation apply to applicants for landing permits who come from countries which do not ‘believe in the form of government which we enjoy. It appears that the Queensland Government is having quite a lot of trouble with Southern Europeans and it is no wonder when we hear so much talk of secret societies and of cases in which serious injuries are suffered by those attacked.

I again ask a question which the Minister previously ignored. I do not relish resurrecting matters in this way, but when a Minister is asked a question relating to an item included in the vote under the consideration of the committee, and particularly when the question refers to an act of maladministration for which the Minister is responsible, it is only courtesy on his part to answer. Instead, the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson), in this instance, just when he was about to resume his seat, said: “I have nothing further to add to what I have already said.” I have asked this question on a previous occasion, but in view of the Minister’s attitude I shall repeat it now. It is as follows: - Has the Minister seen press reports to the effect that Mrs. Freer, for whose present distressed circumstances he is wholly and solely responsible-

Mr Paterson:

– I shall not accept that statement.

Mr JAMES:

– It was the Minister’s signature which debarred this woman from entering this country at a time when she had paid her full passage to Australia. To-day, according to press reports, she cannot raise sufficient money to travel from New Zealand. I ask the Minister if he has read those reports. Apart from preventing her from landing in Australia the Minister also described her as an adventuress, and fromhis remarks one inferred that she was of immoral character and not fit to be allowed to enter this country. More recently we were informed that the Minister had in his possession certain secret reports dealing with this matter which he, he said, was prepared to show to the honorable member for Martin (Mr. McCall).

Mr Paterson:

– Neither the honorable member for Martin, nor any other honorable member, has seen the reports on this matter.

Mr JAMES:

– The Minister made the statement that he was prepared to allow the honorable member for Martin to see them and, if the latter has not seen them, I regret that he is not here because he stated that he had read the reports.

Mr paterson:

-He may have seen some of them.

Mr JAMES:

– The point I make is that the Cabinet must have endorsed the Minister’s action in this matter, and some time ago the Cabinet brought a measure before this House to secure an increased Ministerial allowance on the pretext that an extra Minister was needed. The extra allowance was granted, but in the meantime the Minister concerned resigned.

Mr Paterson:

– That is not the case.

Mr Menzies:

– The extra Minister was the Treasurer (Mr. Casey).

Mr JAMES:

– In any case the extra salary was granted and, in the meantime, a Minister has resigned, making one less in the Cabinet. I ask the Minister for the Interior if, in view of his action, backed by the Cabinet, in pauperizing Mrs. Freer, it would not be fair and just to use that extra Ministerial salary in order to compensate this woman for the harm this Government has done to her, not only financially, but also so far as her character is concerned.

Mr Thorby:

– Who is dragging down her name now?

Mr JAMES:

– I have never done that. The Minister for the Interior must accept responsibility for that and for debarring this woman from coming into this country, and the Assistant Minister (Mr. Thorby) must accept his share of responsibility in the matter in backing up his colleague.

Mr Thorby:

– The honorable member is doing his utmost to do this woman all the harm he can.

Mr JAMES:

– I am defending her against unjust treatment meted out to her by the Government. To-day she is making an appeal for funds to provide her passage from New Zealand to Australia whereas, when she was debarred from landing originally, her passage to Australia had been fully paid. I ask the Minister for the Interior to answer my questions on this matter.

Another subject on which the Minister for the Interior has failed to give me satisfactory information, although I have raised it from time to time, is in respect of the unfair operation of the Compensation Ordinance in the Northern Territory. We find that individuals who are hurt in the Northern Territory, cases of which I have brought under the Minister’s notice, have been obliged to pay for their transport, from the place where they were injured to- the hospital, and, in addition, exorbitant hospital and medical fees. In the particular case which I submitted to the Minister on representations made to me by a trade union secretary in the Territory, Mr. McDonald, I pointed out that a man who had been injured had found himself practically in debt after being discharged from the hospital. Ah ordinance which will not make provision at least for medical and hospital fees cannot be called a compensation ordinance, particularly when an injured man’s family has to suffer through his misfortune and through his being impoverished by having to pay exorbitant hospital and medical charges.

Another matter which I raised was in respect of the failure of certain contractors in the Northern

Territory to adhere to the ordinance governing the employment of workers, which- stipulates the depositing with the department of a certain sum of money to ensure that, before the contractors make their final draw under the contract, all their workmen will have been paid in full. One case, which I brought under the notice of the Minister in this respect was that of a contractor who had welshed on his workmen, yet, irrespective of this action, had been engaged by another contractor. The letter which I have received from the Minister on this point has given me no satisfaction, and, when he is replying to this debate, I should like him to state what he proposes to do with regard to amending, this ordinance in order to see that workmen employed by contractors are safeguarded. I also again ask whether the Government proposes to compensate Mrs. Freer, in any shape or form, for the loss which it has caused her.

Mr PATERSON:
Minister for the Interior · Gippsland · CP

, - The honorable member who has just resumed his seat referred to the working of the Compensation Ordinance and its application in the. Northern Territory. I assure ,him that that matter is at present under consideration by a Cabinet sub-committee. [ also assure him that, so far as contractors arc concerned, every effort is being made-

Mr Ward:

– I call attention to the state of the committee. [Quorum formed.]

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– I wish to know whether the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Paterson) is able, or willing, to give any reply to the matters mentioned by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James). If the Minister proposes to’ act under instructions from the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) not to give such information, I intend to protest against the manner in which the work of the Government is being carried out. You will recollect, Mr. Chairman, that this Parliament was closed up for six months.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order!

Mr WARD:

– It is true that the committee is discussing the proposed vote for the Department of the Interior, but the purpose of such a discussion is to obtain information from the Minister. If the Minister, because he has become annoyed in the early hours of the morning, refuses to give that information, then surely honorable members should be given an opportunity to make some protest against the action of the Government in refusing to supply information in reply to matters raised by honorable gentlemen on this side of the chamber.

Mr Thorby:

– Honorable gentlemen?

Mr WARD:

– Yes, as honorable as you are or ever were, you ex-copper.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order! If the honorable member does not address the Chair and deal with the subject before the committee, I shall be obliged to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr.WARD. - The honorable member for Hunter referred to the case of Mrs. Freer. He wanted to know whether, in view of the fact that because of the action of the Government, this woman was stranded in New Zealand in a penurious state, the Government was now prepared to assist her to come to this country, especially as the reversal of its original decision was tantamount to an admission that in the first place it was wrong.

Mr Paterson:

– It is not.

Mr WARD:

– The Minister refuses to give any information as to why the decision was reversed. He claims to have in his possession certain reports, the contents of which Have not been disclosed, even to the honorable member for Martin (Mr. McCall) who asked for, and was promised them. According to the honorable gentleman, these reports are still in the department, and it was on them that he based his original decision. If they originally justified the exclusion of Mrs. Freer from Australia and the decision to exclude her was rightly made, they should furnish equal justification now. But the Government has decided to reverse its decision and allow Mrs. Freer to land in Australia. Why? Simply because it realizes that the weight of public opinion is against it and that it cannot justify the stand that it originally took. The Minister was advised by a majority of the members of the Cabinet to back down. As a matter of fact, the Cabinet would long ago have allowed Mrs.

Freer to land in Australia but for the threat of the Country party to withdraw its support from the Government if it forced the honorable gentleman to resign.

Mr Paterson:

– There was no such threat.

Mr WARD:

– This woman has been victimized because of the vindictiveness of the Minister, who had certain information supplied to him personally, but was afraid to give the facts either to this Parliament or to the people of this country. There is no doubt in my mind that the honorable gentleman exceeded his duty in his exclusion of this British woman from Australia without a fair trial or an opportunity to defend her name after she had been maligned by him and other honorable members. As she has suffered an injustice, the request of the honorable member for Hunter that she should be assisted to come to this country, which she was proposing to enter when action was taken to exclude her, is a modest one.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Mr James:

– I had not intended to speak again, but in view of what has happened, I shall talk on every damn thing.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! The honorable gentleman must not use obscene language.

Mr Thorby:

– Honorable gentleman?

Mr James:

– Just as much an honorable gentleman as the Acting Minister for Defence.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order!

Mr James:

– I take exception, Mr. Chairman, to the sarcastic manner in which the Acting Minister for Defence, with a sneer on his face, has referred, not only to the honorable member for East Sydney, but also to me, when yon have addressed us as “ honorable gentlemen “.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Departmentofdefence.

Proposed vote, £950,900.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– I wish to bring to the notice of the Acting Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) certain matters in connexion with the administration of the Australian Navy. The Navy Board, which administers the affairs of the Navy, is a very difficult body from which to obtain any information. From time to time the statement has been made in this chamber that naval ratings have the opportunity to place any complaint before the authorities for inquiry and action. On a previous occasion it was said that there were welfare committees, through which the ratings could lodge complaints. These welfare committees have not functioned for some considerable time. As a matter of fact, intimidation is practised on all vessels to prevent the ratings from lodging complaints with a view to having any matters rectified. The moment a rating makes a complaint he leaves himself open to victimization. This has occurred on many occasions. Whenever cases of victimization have been placed before the Navy Board it has made only the vague reply that the individual concerned was not considered suitable for the position that he occupied. I place before the committee the case of Ivan Edward McGarrigal, of 11 Kellett-street, Darlinghurst, who joined the Navy in 1927, and completed his service with it on the 16th February, 1937. He left it temporarily on the 22nd May, 1930, and rejoined it on the 4th October, 1932. When he received his discharge the reports disclosed that during the whole of his service his character was marked “ Very good “. In regard to ability, on nine different occasions the marking was “.Satisfactory” and on another occasion it was “ Superior.” Yet for some reason” unknown to the rating he was notified at 1.30 p.m. to catch the 2.45 p.m. “ Liberty “ train from Flinders Naval Base. [Quorum formed.’] As it is impossible for any honorable member to obtain information from the Navy Board, I desire that the Minister shall ascertain the reason for the dismissal of this rating at such short notice. According to his own statement, which I have no reason to disbelieve, he was given absolutely no reason whatever.

It is rather peculiar that in many cases in which one endeavours to secure the admission of men to the Navy one is met with the reply that there are no vacancies available. Recently I had the unique experience of requesting that a stoker be released from service. This man had served for four years. He had been retrenched, but was re-admitted in 1932. He applied for a free discharge on account of the illness of his wife, who was suffering very badly from nerves and was being attended by doctors. I made representations in an endeavour to assist him to obtain a free discharge, but received from the Navy Board the reply that a discharge could not be approved owing to a shortage of first-class stokers in the Navy. On many occasions I have brought to the notice of the Minister and the Navy Board the cases of men who had been retrenched and desired to be re-engaged, but have found it impossible to obtain a favourable decision from the department.

I should like the Acting Minister to indicate exactly the Government’s intentions in regard to giving to naval ratings an opportunity to state their grievances. Some little time ago the Government denied that widespread disaffection existed in the Navy because of the treatment which ratings had received at the hands of the Navy Board and the “ brass hats,” as they are termed. It is true that if the Government were to ask those ratings who still remain in the Navy to come forward with their grievances, probably very few of them would materialize, because their livelihood depends upon the preservation of their employment and they are afraid that in the future they would be dismissed on some flimsy pretext. There is no doubt that disaffection exists. If the Government desires to convince the public that there is no cause for complaint, let it institute an inquiry by a committee into the charges that have been made with respect to disaffection. I venture to say that if naval ratings who are no longer in the Navy and thus have nothing to fear from the Navy Board were given an opportunity to make charges and support them with evidence, the Government would find that every charge made against the administration was completely substantiated. Many ratings complain that because members of the Navy Board and other high officials in the department are in the majority of cases imported men, they do not understand Australian conditions or the Australian outlook, and endeavour to introduce into the Australian Navy the disciplinary measures enforced in the Royal Navy. I believe that that is foreign to what we consider should be the practice in this country. No honorable member, and no member of the community who has the well-being of this country at heart, is in favour of the introduction of the repressive disciplinary measures which are enforced in the British Navy.

Mr White:

– What model should be followed ?

Mr WARD:

– The ratings should have the opportunity to secure the rectification of any of the matters of which they complain. On one occasion I brought before the Minister the complaint of an Australian naval rating that aboard ship the ratings were compelled to use the same bathroom and towels as seamen suffering from venereal disease. When the men protested - and, in the circumstances, their protest was most reasonable - the Government did not deny that these things had happened; but all that it did was to say that, in any future construction, consideration would be given to the provision of separate bathing accommodation and the supply of additional towels.- On a previous occasion, I mentioned in this House that, when naval ratings who had been called upon to act as “ flunkeys “ failed to place collar-studs in the shirts of some of the superior officers, they had been penalised. That charge was not denied. The pages of Hansard show that the Minister admitted that penalties had been imposed on naval ratings for trivial offences of that nature. The , Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) has asked what model should be followed. I reply that the present system is not acceptable to the people of this country, and that the conditions in the Navy should be made as decent as possible. Men should be treated as human beings, and there should not be so much distinction between the officers and the ratings. There is now far too much discrimination. For instance, officers may take liquor aboard ship or may obtain it on board; but ratings who are found with even one bottle of beer in their possession are punished, sometimes by imprisonment. If the Government wants to have a contented navy, it should treat the men justly. Justice will not be done ro’ them. so long as imported naval officers are allowed to introduce foreign administrative methods. I believe that the Royal Australian Navy should bo regulated and administered in a manner entirely different from that in force in most navies of the world. The complaints which I have previously brought before Parliament have never been cleared up. The best way to prove the accuracy of these charges is to appoint a board of inquiry, and allow ex-naval ratings to give evidence before it.

Mr. JAMES (Hunter) [5.3 a.m.J.-

Prior to the Christmas adjournment, I brought under the notice of the Government the distress which existed in my electorate, and the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) promised to ask Cabinet to consider making a special grant of -military clothing for the relief of the sufferers. The clothing arrived after Christmas, and on the 18th January I inspected it. At the time I was at Lake Macquarie, but I left there to visit Cessnock in order to inspect two quotas of clothing-one each for the municipality of Cessnock and the Kearsley Shire Council. There were other bundles of clothing for various municipalities in the electorate, but the needs of the two districts I have mentioned were pressing me to inspect the clothing. In order to inspect the clothing some of the bags were opened, but when I saw the torn and ragged blankets and other clothing that they contained, some of which was so filthy as to be entirely unfit for human beings to wear, I was disgusted. The only apparel that was fit to wear was some practically new riding breeches ; but the rest of the articles were fit only for the incinerator. Officers of the two municipalities decided not to accept the clothing, but to send it back. T. am not exaggerating when I say that some of the clothing was saturated with blood, and gave the impression of having been worn by persons who had been seriously injured. Some of the blankets appeared to have dry vomit on them. I placed a bundle of the clothing in my car, intending to bring it to Canberra for honorable members to see; but a little later in the day my car collided with a telegraph pole, and I fractured my skull, with the result that I spent three weeks in hospital. On recovering from the accident, I inquired for the bundle of clothing which had been in the car, and was informed that it had been placed under my head, and had become so saturated with my blood that it had to be destroyed by the police. That unfortunate accident prevented me from bringing the clothing here. The Government ought to have been ashamed to send such rags to any community, however distressed. I do not know whether the Minister has inspected the clothing which was returned by the local-governing bodies that I have mentioned, but I take it that he is aware that they sent it back. I can assure him that the Mayor of Cessnock, the President of the Kearsley Shire Council, as well as other citizens, were disgusted to think that such filthy articles should be sent as a grant for Christmas relief.

Mr STREET:
Corangamite

– The Australian Survey Corps, which is a small branch of the permanent staff of the army, is responsible for the preparation of ordnance maps of this country. Although it provides excellent maps, which are available for sale to the public, the proceeds of such sales are not credited to the corps, but are paid into ConsolidatedRevenue, thereby creating the anomalous position that the more maps the corps prepares, the less new work it is able to do,because it has to pay for the printing of the maps, and is not credited with the revenue derived from the sales. I ask the Acting Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) to look into this matter with a view to altering what is surely a wrong procedure that has been followed for many years.

Should any article of equipment issued to the militia forces be lost or accidentally destroyed, the person to whom it was issued is held responsible for it, and naturally is required to pay its value to the Defence Department. These payments, however, are credited, not to the militia forces, but to Consolidated Revenue. Nothing that the army authorities can do can replace any. article in the mobilization store, and, consequently, when an article is destroyed, another cannot be substituted, even though the lost or destroyed article has been paid for. I ask the Acting Minister to look into this matter also.

The Royal Military College at Duntroon has recently been rebuilt, and it is now a very fine college indeed, but the quarters provided for the regular gunners leave much to be desired.I suggest to the Acting Minister that he should make an inspection of those quarters with a view to providing something better for these men. There are other matters which, because of the length of the sitting, I shall bring before the Acting Minister privately.

Mr DRAKEFORD:
Maribyrnong

– I want to raise the matter of the Railway War Council which cannot rightly be accused of any great activity, although the Government has stated, in reply to a question which I placed on the notice-paper, that the council does all that it is asked to do. I was also informed that the council had met once in ten years,when it assembled in Brisbane on the 15th July, 1936. That body has to deal with railway transport for defence purposes in the event of difficulties arising which necessitate the mobilization of troops.

Mr Thorby:

– A special committee deals with that matter.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– That is given as one of the functions of the council. I asked the Minister-

What are the personnel and functions of the Railway War Council ?

His reply was: -

President : Tlie Quartermaster-General ; Members: The Senior Commissioner of each of the six State railways, the Commissioner for Commonwealth Railways, and certain naval and military officers appointed by the Minister.

The functions of the Railway War Council are to furnish advice in such railway matters as are referred to it by the Minister, including the following: -

To determine the method of supplying information to, and obtaining information from, the various railway departments.

To recommend regulations and instructions for carrying out movements of troops.

To advise upon the method of organizing railway transport officers in time of war.

To consider the question of extra sidings, loading platforms and the like,

To advise upon the organization and system of training railway troops.

I also asked the honorable gentleman : -

  1. Ja it a. fact that the council has met very infrequently in the last ten years?
  2. Will the Government consider the abolition of the council and the substitution of an authority which will take effective action in regard to interstate railway preparations for defence ?

His replies wore : -

  1. Yes.
  2. No. The council has carried out all that it has been asked to do to the satisfaction of the Government, and close contact between the railways commissioners in the various’ States and officers of the Australian Military Forces is being maintained.

The functions of the council are clear and if it has delegated its duties or part of them to some smaller and more active committee there is no evidence of any results. I asked the Acting Minister a further series of questions on this subject as follows: -

  1. What are the names and ranks of the naval and military officers, other than the Quartermaster-General and the commissioners - nf the Commonwealth and respective State railways, who are members of the Railway War Council?
  2. On how many occasions, on what dates, and at what places has the council met in the hist ten years?

His replies were -

  1. The names and ranks of the naval and military officers are dependent upon the occu- paney of certain appointments and are variable. At the present date the names are as follows : -

Director of Naval Reserves and Mobilization - Commander H. L. Quick, A.D.C., Royal Australian Navy.

Director of Military Operations - Temporary Colonel V. H. H. Sturdee, D.S.O., O.B.E., Australian Staff Corps.

Director *of Mobilization - -Brev. LieutenantColonel T. E, Weavers, Australian Staff Corps.

Director of Supplies and Transport, Movement and Quartering - Colonel J. M. A. Durrant, C.M.G., D.S.O., Australian Staff Corps.

The Honorary Consulting Military Engineer - Honorary Lieutenant-Colonel Sir John Butters, C.M.G., M.B.E., V.D. (unattached list). 2. (<i) Once: (6) 15th July, 1930; (c) Brisbane.

The thought, arises from the honorable member’s interjection, is the satisfactory service that the Minister mentioned being given by the Railway War Council, or some other body? A somnolent council, which awakens once in ten years, does not seem to me to offer prospects of satisfactory service. I notice that Sir John Butters’ name is included among the members of the council, as on the unattached list. Probably this gentleman and others associated with him have certain accumulated experience which the Government desires to retain, and I do not wish to say anything derogatory of them; but I desire more information and I would like to see more activity if this body is to continue in existence.

It will be remembered that during the election campaign in 1934 the leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) made a certain promise respecting the standardization of our railway gauges, and the Prime Minister also said during the election period that something would be done to put the railways on a more satisfactory footing for defence purposes. Prominent members of the military forces have asserted that from one month to six weeks would be necessary under present conditions to remove an army division of troops with its equipment and impedimenta from one sea-board of Australia to the other. It is recognized as essential that movements of the military forces to be effective must ‘ be made in reasonably quick time. The Government appears to have fallen asleep on this subject; at any rate, its work hae been limited to the building of the line from Port Augusta to Port Pirie. When that line is open for traffic it will bo possible to save the full day that was promised. No doubt when the day can be saved it will be at the expense of the employees who will have to do the same work ‘in less time for less pay. The Government should safeguard the interests of its employees in this respect, but that is by the way.

The Railway War Council has shown itself to be an inert body. It should be infused with’ new life and called upon to perform some useful function. The interests of efficiency cannot be otherwise served. The Government is not entitled to maintain a purely ornamental organization even though it may meet with the approval of certain military gentlemen connected with it.

In directing attention to the statement made in Melbourne recently by the Acting Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) concerning the manufacture of munitions, I wish to point out that the Labour party Las always been opposed to the manufacture of munitions and armaments by private individuals or firms and organizations for private profit. Apparently the Government is toying with the idea of- allowing private organizations to accept contracts for the manufacture of munitions and armaments. If it does so it will undoubtedly fly in the face of the desires of the great majority of the people of Australia. We have been told that arrangements are being considered to encourage certain firms to install machinery which could be used for the manufacture of munitions if the need should unfortunately arise. Of course, I quite realize that if an aggressor should attack Australia it might be necessary to call upon private engineering enterprises to assist in the preparation of munitions and armaments; but I am sure that the people of Australia would resent any move to enable armaments manufacturing firms to establish themselves in Australia simply to manufacture war equipment for private profit. I do not wish at the moment to enlarge on the activities of such firms which seem to be able to find and even create many causes for war in order that they may supply the necessary requirements. The Government’s attitude on this subject should be clearly defined in a more comprehensive announcement than any that has yet been made.

Another matter that merits consideration is the request of the men engaged in our munitions establishments for the granting of furlough on the same basis as that which applies to the Public ‘Service. I support this request very strongly.

Mr GANDER:

– Munitions are also maufactured at Lithgow.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– Any such provision should apply not only to Maribyrnong, but also to Lithgow. It has been brought to my notice that the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) is not in his place to support this request on behalf of his constituents. He seems to have formed the habit of disappearing after he makes a speech on any particular measure.

Mr Francis:

– Why should he not do so? This is an obvious stone wall.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– That statement is not justified. We are as fully entitled to speak in the interests of our constituents as are honorable members on the opposite side of the chamber. The request to which I have just referred has been the subject of consideration by the Government for a long while. It is more than six months since I last -asked a question in regard to it, and the Government has had ample time to reach a decision. There is no more reason why the employees in our munition factories should be denied Public Service conditions in this connexion, seeing that the officers of the Postmaster-General’s Department and most of the other Commonwealth employees enjoy them. Approximately 1,000 employees at Maribyrnong and some hundreds at Lithgow would be involved. The Government has not actually refused the request, but, because the matter has been under consideration for a long period and no definite reply has been given, the men are becoming impatient. When a reply to a simple request like this is not forthcoming over a period of time, dissatisfaction is bound to be genleI ft t g d »

Mr THORBY:
Acting Minister for Defence · Calare · CP

.- The Government has not launched a campaign in favour of handing over the manufacture of munitions to private firms, as the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Drakeford) has suggested, nor does it intend to do so. All the munition factories that have been established by the Government are still in operation. It has been decided, however, to set up a co-ordinating committee, the duty of which is to ensure that, if an ..emergency should arise, and munitions are required at short notice, private firms with suitable machinery can be called in to the aid of the country. In order to enable our munitions factories to operate under the most economical conditions, a considerable amount of work is ‘being done in them at present, for ordinary commercial concerns, the idea being to ensure that they will be kept in effective running order. The adoption of this policy has made possible the establishment of several small industries which would be of great value to the Commonwealth if a condition of emergency should arise.

In reply to the remarks of the honorable member for Maribyrnong, respecting the conditions of employees engaged in our munition factories, I point out that this Government has increased the number of employees by considerably more than 3,000. and the expenditure by £962,548, whereas the previous government, decreased the number of employees by 1,375, and the expenditure by about £500,000. The Government’s policy has undoubtedly strengthened our defence services. The rates of pay of our employees have been increased, and their conditions of work improved.

Reference has been made to the breaks of gauge on the railways of Australia. This Government is not responsible for those undesirable conditions, but it has done much to remedy the position.. It is not many years since the nature of the service between Albury and South Brisbane was completely altered, a 4 ft. 8^ in, gauge line being provided throughout the whole distance. A considerable sum has been expended in cutting out one of the most troublesome breaks of gauge in the Commonwealth, that between Terowie and Port Augusta. This 3 ft. 6 in. gauge section, which would have presented most serious difficulties in the event of the necessity for transporting troops or munitions, has been eliminated. The Government has not been idle in the matter, but, while the party opposite was in power, not one mile of line was laid down to reduce the number of breaks of gauge.

Mr Drakeford:

– We were pledged to do it.

Mr THORBY:

– Honorable members opposite, loud in their condemnation of the present Government, have insinuated that it has neglected its duties. They are eager to misrepresent the true position by malicious suggestions. The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) takes every opportunity to make insinuations against the Government in regard to the administration of the Navy. Throughout his speech he referred to victimization and malicious, treatment of the men by their officers. This was in keeping with all his speeches. He never puts forward an argument without making insinuations couched in the strongest possible language. Never has he offered a useful suggestion. All his remarks are distortions of the truth in order to get a political advantage, whether at the expense of the Navy or of the poorest section of the community. If there is anyhuman being of whom he can take political advantage, one can be sure he will do so. Some time ago it seemed to hurt his conscience when I drew attention to the fact that he was entitled to be referred to as an honorable gentleman, simply because “ honorable “ is a courtesy term applied to those who occupy a position in this chamber.

Dealing with other matter’s to which reference has been made, I again say that a .considerable amount of exaggeration has been resorted to. The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) made a rather serious charge against the Defence Department regarding the issue of clothing, blankets, and other surplus stores. Year after year the department has made tens of thousands of articles of clothing and bedding available to the poor in all parts of the Commonwealth. Some of the articles were probably wellworn when distributed, but instructions had been issued that nothing should be destroyed by the department if it would be of any service to the poor. No matter what government may have been in power, the department has received many letters of thanks and congratulation in respect of the issue for charitable purposes of clothing and blankets of good quality. If the honorable member has a minor complaint to make about a few of these articles, he should direct the attention of the department to it, rather than make a song about it in this chamber, and try to belittle the department which is doing its best to assist the needy.

As to the comment of the honorable member for East Sydney, regarding the discipline in the Navy, I may say that this is not the first occasion on which he has endeavoured to exaggerate certain incidents that may or may not have occurred. The very fact that he has laid emphasis upon them makes me dubious regarding them.

Mr Ward:

– Read Hansard.

Mr THORBY:

– I have done. so. The honorable member has merely repeated what he said some time ago, and ‘this repetition rnakes me suspect that the accusations have been invented by him or some of his friends for the purpose of creating dissatisfaction in the Navy. Every honorable member knows that nothing would give the honorable member for East Sydney more pleasure than to be able to promote discontent in not only the Navy, but also in every other branch of the defence forces. That is his highest ambition. If he could gratify it in the slightest degree ho would be delighted. He would be pleased to assist in the destruction of the defence forces.

Mr Ward:

– The honorable member has a disaffected mind.

Mr THORBY:

– No ; I have an analytical mind, and that is why I can detect the malicious motives underlying every speech made by the honorable member. His one ambition in life is to ridicule the parliamentary institution and to drag it down to the gutter. He tries to damn it in the eyes of the people in. order to gain the ultimate object which he has in view. The Defence Department is trying to discharge its true functions.

Recognizing its responsibilities to the people, the Government has made provision for every branch of the forces, and in no respect lias it neglected the welfare of the men themselves. It has provided first-class accommodation for all men in the service, and from the highest to the lowest ranks, has considered their welfare, giving them the consideration to which they are entitled in view of the services they render.

It has been suggested that the Government is trying to create a war scare, simply because it has recognized its responsibility, and decided that our defence equipment should be placed in first-class order. That policy will be continued so long as this Government remains in power. Provision is made under this bill to’ continue the good work already accomplished in connexion with defence. The Government desires the defence forces to be true to name and not aggressive. It has been trying to maintain peace and to enable Australia to make a contribution’ to that end by contributing its quota in building up the strength of the defence forces of the Empire. Everybody knows that in strengthening its position Australia is definitely assisting to maintain world peace. Weakness on the part of the Empire would lead to catastrophe. If the British Empire were weakened disaster would probably occur among other nations. That is why, at the Imperial Conference, the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) and his colleagues tried to contribute towards the cause of peace by bringing about a better understanding between the various parts of the Empire, not forgetting the important suggestion made for the purpose of improving the relations of the nations bordering on the Pacific.

The Government has endeavoured to overcome the difficulties mentioned by several honorable members, particularly the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. Street). The Military College has been re-established at Duntroon only during the last twelve months, and a considerable amount of work has been entailed. A great deal of constructional work has already been completed. Accommodation has been provided for all of the cadets there, and additional provision for furniture and other details will be made on the Estimates which the Government hopes to submit during the next couple of months. I can assure honorable members that the requirements of Duntroon have not been overlooked, but will be supplied as has been done’ at Lave.ton, Point Cook, Richmond, and the various military barracks.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– I desire to bring another matter under the notice of the Acting Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby), so that he may give me another discourteous reply. The proposal has been made to remove the Victoria Military Barracks from the Paddington district. The municipality labours under a great disadvantage because much of the land within its area is non-ratable, and its revenues are thereby seriously diminished. The residents have to pay abnormally high rates. If this area were made availablefor residential and other purposes by the transfer of the barracks to a more suitable site, the strain on the financial position of the local governing body would be considerably relieved. When the barracks were established at Paddington the area was not considered to be a residential one, but in recent years the population has become dense. There are suitable sites for military barracks beyond the city boundaries. Requests that the barracks should be removed have been made on many occasions by the local municipal council and the parliamentary representatives of the electorate. On one occasion the Parliament of New South Wales unanimously agreed to request the Federal Government to remove the building. If Australia were invaded attempts would first be made upon military establishments, and from the viewpoint of the safety of the people, the barracks, which now stand in a thicklypopulated area, should be removed to a more secluded spot. If bombs dropped by aeroplanes fell wide of their mark dwellings in which non-combatants are housed would be destroyed. I am particularly anxious that the residents of East Sydney shall not be exposed to such a danger. When I have brought this matter forward on previous occasions I have been informed that the present site is considered to be the most suitable, but beyond that no reason has been given why another site could not be chosen. The fact that the barracks are on one side of Oxford-street prevents the erection of more attractive premises on the other side. If shops were built on one side of the street and residences on the other, that, portion of the street would become a thriving business centre. The Acting Minister should consider seriously the representations I am making in this matter and arrange for an immediate change to be made. I do not. know exactly what reports have been obtained by the Government, or what investigations have been made, but perhaps the Acting Minister will supply me with all the information at his disposal. If it is necessary to obtain the opinion of some of the alleged military experts in this country, I trust that he will do so, and that he will comply with my moderate request without being so vindictive or displaying personal spleen. An inquiry would show that the building is quite unsuitable to the purpose for which it is used, and that a large proportion of the structure is utilized for offices and for storing departmental records which could be more conveniently kept elsewhere. If the Acting Minister accedes to my request he will be able to inform the Minister for Defence (Sir Archdale Parkhill) on his return from overseas that at ‘least something has been accomplished during his absence.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.Although the Acting Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby), said that I made a serious charge against the Defence Department, he did not state the nature of the charge. I still maintain that filthy and unserviceable .military clothing was sent to the Newcastle district. Before making such unwarranted charges against me the Acting Minister should have made himself conversant with the facts. ‘Had he done so he would have ascertained that a large consignment of material sent to Cessnock was quite unsuitable for the purpose for which it was sent. [Quorum formed.’)

Honorable members opposite always contend that the Labour party has no defence policy. We have already shown that we believe in the adequate defence of this country; but the Government seems to be incapable of making provision to that ‘ end. For instance, no provision has been made for the production of fuel oil for use in aeroplanes, although almost every other nation which does not possess flow oil has erected plants to produce oil from shale or coal. If the Acting Minister is as concerned in the defence of Australia as he suggests he is, he should advise the Government to commence producing fuel oil for the Navy, Army and Air Forces. In some of our main seaports, including Newcastle, the fuel oil tanks erected by Commonwealth Oil Refineries Limited are in most exposed positions. At Wickham these tanks are erected in a thickly populated area near the waterfront and consequently present good targets for hostile aeroplanes should an attack be made upon Australia. The people of Newcastle have made requests, through their representa1tive, for the removal of these tanks, which are adjacent to a school, to a more isolated place, because they represent a real danger. Some time ago an oil tanker at Newcastle was destroyed by fire, and if the storage tanks became ignited many lives, including those of school children, would be lost. Many honorable members opposite, including the Acting Minister, have said that the residents in the coalfields district are disloyal.

Mr Thorby:

– I have never made that statement, and I am sure it has not been made by any honorable member on this side of the chamber.

Mr JAMES:

– Those who have said that the residents in the coalfields district are rebellious individuals should remember that during the Great War two battalions of infantry and one mining battalion were despatched overseas from the northern district.

Aerodromes have been constructed at. Newcastle and Cessnock, and I have been requested to ask the Defence Department whether an aeroplane can be made available to enable some suitable young nien in these districts to undergo a course of flying. They have asked the Defence Department for an aeroplane for training purposes to be located at the Cessnock aerodrome, but they have received no satisfaction. Seeing that the Government is desirous of building up our defence forces, it should avail itself of this opportunity. Many hundreds of youths with leaving certificates^ and thousands of others with intermediate certificates, are seeking employment in the northern districts. I have heard it said that there are no fewer than 10,000 such youths between the ages of 14 and 25 years. The trouble seems to be that Melbourne has too much influence with the Government, and in consequence the establishment of a factory there for the manufacture of aeroplanes is proposed. Why not make them in the northern districts of New South Wales where the great steel works are ? Coal and all facilities are close at hand. This would assist in the building up of our defence forces, and would also provide employment and a useful training for the youth of this country. When the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) visited that area in 1934, he received many deputations, and promised to do something to relieve unemployment. Well, here is an opportunity, even at this late stage, for the Government to redeem his promise. The Government should train young men as pilots and mechanics in the Air Force and, by the establishment of an aeroplane factory, employment would be provided for artisans and engineers. I have written a number of letters to the Minister for Defence recommending intelligent, healthy youths who desire to join the Navy, Army or Air Force - anything so that they may no longer be a burden on their parents. I have asked the Minister to find places for them, but I have never been successful yet, although I know that other youths have been placed upon the recommendation of Ministers.

Mr Thorby:

– The honorable member knows that I have nothing to do with the selection of recruits.

Mr JAMES:

– Out of courtesy to the Minister I have sent the applications along to him, but everytime the reply received is to the effect that there is no vacancy.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr DRAKEFORD:
Maribymong

i - When the Acting Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) was referring just now to the standardization of railway gauges, he was not quite fair in saying that the Labour party was always talking about this matter, but had never done anything. I remind honorable members that since 1921, when the report of the royal commission on this subject was received, the anti-Labour parties have been in power for 144 years, and when the Labour party was in office, but not in power, the Opposition did its utmost to prevent the Labour Government’s programme from being put into effect. The Acting Minister boasts of the completion of the Kyogle section, and of the work done on the Port Augusta-Port Pirie section, but that is not a very great contribution to standardization when we have been assured by high military authorities that standardization is absolutely essential for defence purposes, and when we keep in mind the promises made by the respective leaders of the government parties at election time. Honorable members must admit that if the Labour party had been in power much more would have been dene.

Mr White:

– The Labour Government did not bring forward a railway measure of any kind.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– The Labour Government brought forward its financial measures as the first step towards the fulfilment of its programme, but it was blocked in the Senate. The Acting Minister cannot be allowed to get away with such a statement as he made tonight. I do not wish to introduce any acrimony into the debate, but the Government must expect criticism, and as long as it is fair it should be accepted without resentment. The Government cannot evade the fact that, although it has been- in office for nearly sixteen years s-ince the Royal Commission on the Standardization of Railway Gauges brought in its recommendations, it has failed to put into effect its policy for the standardization of railway gauges. That is to be deplored. I know that it is a big undertaking, and that a great deal of money will be required, but I know also that the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), in his policy speech prior to the 1934 election, said that it would be undertaken as a major scheme for the relief of unemployment. So far, however, only SO miles have been completed.

Regarding the Minister’s statement about more employment at munitions factories, I am not unmindful of the fact that more men are now being employed, although I regret the need for so much expenditure on defence. However, what the Minister failed to point out is that much of the increased expenditure is due to the increased cost of living, which requires the payment of higher wages.

Mr Thorby:

– The _ Government is paying more than award rates in munitions factories.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– That may be so, but I point out, without attempting to deprive the Government of any credit due to it, that outside employers have also had- to pay more than award rates, because it is practically impossible to get trained engineers and other skilled workers in the metal trades at the present time. I still maintain that the Government should extend to these men the same rights of furlough and long-service leave as are extended to other Commonwealth employees, and I trust that the Government will come to a favorable decision on the matter.

I do not think that the charge against this party of stone-walling in this debate has any justification. I have had to wait till the small hours of the morning for these items to be reached. I regret that it is necessary for me to talk at this late hour, but it is the fault of the Government. It has not met the House “for the last six months, and now it is asking us, in a session of three weeks, to rush through important business, and stay up all night doing it. I have a duty to my constituents, and it is necessary for me, in order to discharge that duty, to ventilate certain matters in this Parliament.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Trade and Customs.

Proposed vote, £99,970.

Mr. WARD (East Sydney) [6.12 a.m. J.- - I should like to know whether the Government is still pursuing its policy of trade diversion, and if so, what results have been achieved. At the recent Imperial Conference in London certain discussions took place, if. we may believe press reports, with regard to the advisability of varying our Empire trade policy. The British representatives were inclined to favour a breaking down of the trade barriers that have been erected against countries outside the Empire.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Collins:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The honorable member must deal with the vote for the department.

Mr WARD:

– I should like to know whether the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) can say how much has been expended to date on the prosecution of the Government’s trade diversion policy; whether this policy is still in operation; whether any officers of his department have been engaged in compiling information regarding it for the benefit of honorable members; whether the Minister is able to give figures regarding the results of the policy insofar as it applies to the United States of America and Japan; and what the Government proposes to do with regard +o t]iP development of overseas markets for our products. Will it be necessary to continue this policy, or will it be changed in accordance with the hints that have been published in the press?

Earlier in the night an honorable member raised the question of what is being done by the Government regarding the export of iron ‘ore from Australia. I suggest that if, after inquiry, it is found necessary to impose an export tax on the export of iron ore, it should be made sufficiently severe to render the export of such ore unprofitable.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.I propose to deal with the activities of the Censorship Board.

Mr White:

– Will the honorable gentleman tell me where he can find any reference to that matter in the Estimates now being considered by the committee?

Mr BAKER:

– I am speaking to the proposed vote for the Department of Trade and Customs.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is not in order in discussing that subject at this stage.

Mr BAKER:

– I propose to connect my remarks with statements made by the Minister himself.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– This matter is not covered by the Estimates now under discussion and consequently the honorable member may not proceed along those lines.

Mr BAKER:

– Under what section of the Estimates can that subject be relevantly . discussed ? Provision for the Censorship Board must be made somewhere in the Estimates, because money is spent on the Censorship Board. The members pf the board are not working for nothing.

Mr White:

– They are; they are a purely voluntary body; the honorable member cannot understand that.

Mr. WARD (East Sydney) 1 6.1 S a.m.]. - I ask the Minister whether the Censorship Board, which he has said is an honorary body, does not incur expenditure of some kind. Does it nit employ a secretary or purchase stationery?

Mr White:

– I shall tell the honorable member.

Mr WARD:

– Well, such expenditure must be covered by the vote for this particular department.

Mr Baker:

– Is not the censorship of films covered by these Estimates?

Mr White:

– Yes.

Mr WARD:

– If any section of its expenditure is covered by these Estimates, I am justified in voicing my criticism of the Censorship Board at this juncture.

Mr White:

– I did not say it was covered by this vote.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.No particular item has been referred to by the honorable member and, consequently, he cannot proceed.

Mr WARD:

– It is natural to suppose that the Censorship Board does not provide it’s own stationery.

Mr White:

– It does, as a matter of fact.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is out of order.

Mr WARD:

– I should like some information from the Minister in respect of the Film Censorship Board. Will he tell the committee the number of films which have been cut during the last twelve months, the titles of those films, and the reason why they were censored? I deplore the hush-hush policy adopted by the Government in regard to the censorship of films and the censorship of books.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Health.

Proposed vote, £ 20,S80.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– The Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) has been making quite a fuss recently in the newspapers, and over the air, expressing his concern for Australian children whom, he says, are suffering from malnutrition. I should like to know from the Minister, when he is available to give some attention to the vote for his department when it is being discussed by this committee, what he intends to do in order to persuade the Government to remedy those conditions under which so many of our children suffer from the evils of malnutrition, and rickets which is due to lack of proper food. Talk without action is very cheap and the people of Australia want this Government to take action in order to protect them. Every child should be provided with sufficient, and wholesome, food. On several occasions this Government has been asked to co-operate with State governments with the object of providing at least one free meal a day to school children, and to provide these children with free milk. Although spokesmen on behalf of the Government have had much to say about the alleged prosperity now reigning in Australia, and have referred to the fact that various companies are paying large dividends and making enormous profits, I ask what amount has been spent by the Commonwealth Health Department in providing food for these unfortunate children? As a matter of fact, at an inquiry conducted recently by the Melbourne City Council into the physical condition of children within its boundaries, it was found that 43 per cent, of these children under five years of age were suffering from malnutrition. In face of facts of this nature how can this Government justify its claim that this country has been restored to prosperity? Many of our young people are unable to secure even the bare necessaries of life. General inquiries by the department into the health of our children may serve a useful purpose, but something more than mere investigation into the matter is expected by the people of this Government. It is Hie practice of State governments to pass responsibility in this respect on to the Commonwealth and vice versa. Repeatedly Labour members in State parliaments have drawn the attention of their respective governments to this subject and have been told that those governments have not sufficient resources to enable them to deal with the matter, but are looking to the Commonwealth Government for assistance. At the same time, honorable members on this side of the committee, when they raise similar inquiries here, are informed that this is a matter to which the State governments should attend. I point out that the governments in office in some of the States are of the same political color as this Government, for instance, the Stevens Government in New South Wales.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

– What has that got to do with the consideration of the vote now before the committee?

Mr WARD:

– I feel sure that if we can persuade the Minister to bring pressure

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).On more than one occasion this evening the Chair has directed the honorable member to confine his remarks to the subject under discussion.

Mr WARD:

– You will recognize the position, Mr. Chairman-

The CHAIRMAN:

– -I recognize that the honorable member is not dealing with the subject before the committee and I shall not allow him to proceed.

Mr WARD:

– I take it that in considering the vote for the Department of Health, I shall be in order in asking what this department is doing to improve the health of the people generally. One essential for good health is proper food, and people suffering from malnutrition must be enabled to purchase such food. If all of our governments refuse to accept responsibility in this matter, surely I can endeavour, as a member of this committee, to see that children, who are in need of such food, are provided with it. That proposal has been made, not by any member of this party, but by the Minister for Health himself. Quite recently I read in a statement published by the Minister in the Sydney. Morning Herald, that he regretted very much that a home at one of the Sydney seaside resorts, which had been erected and maintained for the housing of children suffering from malnutrition had been compelled to close its doors because of lack of funds. I ask the Government to provide funds to re-open that home for the benefit of the unfortunate children whom it was designed to house, and also to utilize a portion of the surplus of revenue over expenditure in the provision of at least one hot wholesome meal and one free issue of milk daily to school children throughout the Commonwealth. If the Commonwealth Government were to co-operate with the State governments in that regard it would help materially to improve the health of the people of Australia, particularly that of the young people who will be the citizens of to-morrow.

The Minister for Health has also made certain remarks in regard to the decline of the birth rate in Australia and has said that, because of insufficient care of the expectant mother as well as of the newly born child, the infant mortality rate is much higher than it should be. It is not that particular aspect, however, with which I desire to deal. According to the right honorable gentleman, the birth rate has fallen remarkably. I suggest that if the Government cares to analyse the records it will find that when economic conditions are good in this country the birth rate is high, while when they are depressed the birth rate falls, because the workers are then unable to maintain children and many of them will not bring children into the world to be reared under the intolerable conditions that are permitted to exist.

I should like my remarks to be brought to the notice of the Minister for Health. I hope that he will have time before the elections - he will not have an opportunity later - to make a statement indicating what practical steps the Government proposes to take to assist those children who, according to his own statement, are suffering from malnutrition, and to lift the living standards of the community, thus materially contributing to the establishment of such conditions as will induce an increase of the birth rate.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

Like’ the honorable member who just resumed his seat (Mr. Ward) I regret that the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) is not in the chamber. We have heard many of the speeches that he has broadcast, particularly in relation to the health of the children of Australia. Many of us are as deeply concerned in regard to the health of the citizens of this country as is the right honorable gentleman, and endorse the sentiments that he has expressed. Undoubtedly the States have a very hard row to hoe in meeting the demands of the unemployed and of the many parents who are unable to provide the diet that is needed to improve the physique of infants and the youth of this country, particularly the children who are attending school. Why does not the Federal Government make a special allowance to the States to enable them to provide milk free of charge for school children ? That is only a fair and reasonable request. The resources of the States are fully taxed in connexion with the dole system and the emergency relief scheme, This Government claims to have reduced the volume .of unemployment. I contend, however, that the problem is by no means adequately dealt with merely by the initiation of emergency relief schemes.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! The committee is not considering the unemployment problem.

Mr JAMES:

– If the people had constant employment they would have the necessary purchasing power to obtain the commodities that are essential to health. We look to the Minister for Health to encourage the raising of a healthy race. The Commonwealth should recompense those medical men who are doing everything that lies in their power to meet the needs of the unemployed. Many medical men exhausted the whole of a life’s savings during the depression in the relief of suffering humanity, and received no compensation whatever. Unless the Government assists in the development of a healthy race, it is not playing the part that it should play. Apparently it derives considerable pleasure from the thought that it is able to “ pass the buck “ to the States. Lack of necessary purchasing power results in malnutrition, and that leads to the undermining of health. The Department of Health should consider seriously the remarks of the Minister in regard to infantile mortality. In a large measure the high mortality rate is due to the fact that expectant mothers are attended by unqualified and inexperienced persons. The purpose of the maternity allowance was to ensure that every expectant mother would at least have proper medical attention at a critical period of her life. Under the Premiers plan, the allowance was reduced, but it should have been restored as soon as the budget was balanced.

The Minister for Health is continually travelling about the country expressing amazement at the heavy maternity mortality. He thinks that something should be done in the matter. I urge the Government to restore the allowance to £5, and to remove it front the stigma of being a charitable grant. The Minister’s actions give the impression that he is really concerned about the health of the children of this country, but, were he really »in earnest, he would be here during this debate to answer the questions of honorable members who, like him, are anxious to establish a healthy race in Australia.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.I welcome this opportunity to deal with one of the most important departments which come under the purview of Parliament. That governments, both Commonwealth and State, as well as local governing bodies, are so interested in the health of the people, demonstrates the great advance that has been made in public opinion on health matters during the last few decades. Two or three centuries ago, the health of the people seemed to be nobody’s concern. There was then no proper sanitation, with the result that plagues and diseases carried off many thousands of lives. There may still be occasional outbreaks off pneumonic influenza and other epidemics, but there is little possibility of a recurrence of happenings of such magnitude as the Great Plague of 1666, when a large proportion of the population of England was destroyed. From time to time, conservative people are prone to compare the number of public servants to-day with the number ten, twenty or more years ago. They appear to forget that more and more activities are coming under national control, and that, in consequence, the number of administrative officers must necessarily increase. The Health Department is onewhich must continue to grow and to employ more officers.

The Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) has obtained considerable publicity during recent months by his frequent references to malnutrition. The word “ malnutrition “ sounds better than does the word “ starvation,” but the meaning of the two words is the same. It would be better if the right honorable member would say frankly that one of the duties of his department is to deal with the health of people suffering from starvation. Perhaps his choice of a more high-sounding word is actuated by a desire to avoid “ the just charge that, if the people in this country are starving, the Government is responsible. Malnutrition, or starvation, has existed from time immemorial under the régime of anti-Labour governments. At no time in the history of the worldhas Labour been in power sufficiently long to put into operation its policy of monetary reform, which would prevent starvation among the people. As a result of the activities of the Minister, an Advisory Council on Nutrition has been appointed. Among its members are -

  1. H. L. Cumpston, C.M.G., M.D., D.P.H., Director-General of Health, Commonwealth Department of Health.

Sir David Rivett, M.A., D.Sc., Chief Executive Officer, Commonwealth Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.

Sir George Julius, B.Sc, B.E., Chairman, Commonwealth Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.

Professor S. M. Wadham, M.A., Professor of Agriculture, University of Melbourne.

Professor Harvey Sutton, O.B.E., M.D., B.Sc, D.P.H., Director, Sydney School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine; Professor of Preventive Medicine, University of Sydney.

Those gentlemen may be described as the Commonwealth representation on the Council. It would be interesting to know what payment they are to receive for their services as members of the new Council. Other appointees to the AdvisoryCouncil, who represent the University Medical Schools, are -

Professor C. G. Lambie, M.C., M.D., F.R.C.P., Ed., F.R.S.E., Professor of Medicine, University of Sydney.

Professor W. A. Osborne, M.B., D.Sc, F.A.C.S., Professor of Physiology, University of Melbourne.

Professor Sir C. Stanton Hicks, M.D., Ch.B., M.Sc, Ph.D., F.I.C., F.C.S., Professor of Human Physiology and Pharmacology, University of Adelaide.

Sir Raphael Cilento, M.D., D.T.M. and H., Director-General of Health and Medical Services for Queensland.

Professor D. H. K. Lee, M.Sc, M.B., B.S., D.T.M., Professor of Physiology, University of Queensland.

They are a representative body of prominent men who are prepared to give their time to the important national work of developing a healthy nation. Although every honorable member hopes that they will be successful in solving the problems to which they have set their hands, we, on this side, recognize that it is useless to attack effects while disregarding causes. All the scientific knowledge in the community will not of itself avail to make a healthy nation, for, unless the purchasing power of the people is sufficient to provide adequate supplies of nutritious food, there will still be starvation. The Federal Council of the British Medical Association is represented by Professor Henry Priestley, M.D., Ch.M., B.Sc, Associate Professor of Physiology, University of Sydney.

At this stage I wish to refer to the recent inquiry into the Canberra Hospital. I should like to know what that inquiry has cost the country. Beading between the lines in the report of the proceedings which appeared in the Canberra Times, it is evident that the British Medical Association used its influence to make it appear that there was nothing wrong at the hospital. It did so, because the reputation of doctors was at stake. The Hospital Commission of New South Wales should have concerned itself only with the administration of the hospital and the welfare of the people whom it is intended to serve.

Tlie Advisory Council on Nutrition hap already submitted three reports. Its first report indicated that further reports, in greater detail, would follow. That promise has been fulfilled, for, judging by the size of the second and third reports, they contain much detailed information. The first report pointed out that the council was primarily advisory in character, and was not vested with executive authority. It used the word “ executive “ in a different sense from that in which it was used in this chamber recently, when there was. complaint that the power of the Executive was becoming too great.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must confine his remarks to the item before the chair. [Quorum formed.]

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

– Many requests have been made to the Government, unsuccessfully so far, for an increase in the rate of the invalid and old-age pension. I, therefore, suggest that funds should be made available to assist pensioners to obtain medical services free of cost to themselves. The Commonwealth Government could well co-operate with the State governments in this matter. All honorable members are aware that invalid pensioners are frequently involved in heavy expense for medicines. Old-age pensioners also frequently have to spend a part of their all-too-meagre income on medicines of one kind and another. It is, therefore, not unreasonable to ask the Government to give consideration to the request that I have advanced. It may be said that pensioners should enter a hospital if they need medical treatment; but even the public hospitals require some contribution from those who receive treatment, whether as out-patients or inmates. The paltry pension at present provided is insufficient to meet the cost of medical services. Therefore, if the Government, out of the surplus which it will undoubtedly have at the end of this financial year, could provide an amount to assist the pensioners, who in many cases suffer silently and patiently, it would do a real service to one of the most deserving sections of the community.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

I should like the Minister representing the Minister for Health to inform me why the amount being provided for salaries of medical officers of the department in Queensland and the Northern Territory are given in a lump sum?

Mr Thorby:

– They are quarantine officers.

Mr BAKER:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND · FLP

– It would be much more satisfactory to all concerned if the details were shown separately. What amount of salary is paid to the Director-General of Health, and to the principal officers in each of the States? It would be foolish, of course, to stint in a matter of this kind.

Years ago, as I have pointed out in an earlier speech, there was no Commonwealth Health Department, and only skeleton organizations existed in the various States to deal with public health. We seem now to have gone to the other extreme, for we have a Commonwealth

Health Department, a Health Department in each State, and also municipal health departments. While I believe in providing as much work as possible; I do not see any particular virtue in appointing two or three men to do the work of one. As I look forward to the day when the Commonwealth Parliament will exercise complete legislative authority in Australia, and, in fact, be the only parliament, so I look forward to the time when the Commonwealth Health Department will be supreme. There should undoubtedly be an increase of Commonwealth legislative power. One health department would be sufficient for Australia just as one parliament would be sufficient.

It is desirable also, in my opinion, that the medical services of Australia should be nationalized. Effective steps m this connexion have been- taken in Tasmania. The medical services of Queensland are also becoming nationalized. Even in the most backward States, medical practitioners are to-day associated with the Education Departments. A move is also being made to nationalize the medical services of New Zealand. When this reform is fully achieved, the poorest class in the community will be able to obtain medical services equal to those available to the richest classes. At present our medical services, like our legal services, are governed by considerations of money. The poor man has practically no chance in the law courts against the rich man who can afford to pay high legal fees. Our medical practitioners, as a rule, do their experimenting on their poor patients and are thereby better qualified to give medical services to patients who can reward them well.

I wish to return to my consideration of the report of the Advisory Council on Nutrition. It would take more time than I have at my disposal to discuss all the points in the reports that I find to be of interest. I direct attention, in the first place, to the following statement regarding calcium deficiencies in food : -

Some evidence of an inconclusive character w«« before your council pointing to the possibility of some calcium deficiency in the diet of the people of the Brisbane area, and some phosphorus (or calcium) deficiency in the diet of the residents of Western Queensland (and perhaps also of other interior districts of Australia). This question of mineral deficiencies is one to which little attention has, as yet, been paid in Australia, but it. is a question which your council feels should bc deliberately and exhaustively studied.

The council has limited powers, but it interprets its appointment as an expression of the Government’s desire to obtain information on two principal aspects of the problem of malnutrition, namely -

  1. The present state of nutrition of tinAustralian people; and (ft) the nature of any evidence that thu Australian people are in any degree under-nourished, or that their diet is improperly balanced or improperly prepared.

It would, of course, be interesting to obtain useful information on these problems in Australia, although I again point out that starvation is the name by which we have hitherto known the complaint which the council describes as malnutrition. A large proportion of people in Australia come under the heading known as C.3. During the war period, it was discovered that many men in both Australia and Great Britain who were prepared to fight, were suffering from degrees of starvation. We had the extraordinary spectacle of men being willing to fight for their country, although during the period of their adolescence their country failed to provide them with sufficient food to sustain’ their bodies. It is strange, also, that although capitalism proved ineffective in maintaining a raceof virile and strong men: those same mcn were willing to fight to maintain the capitalist system. It surely cannot be long now before capitalism takes its final count. The council is making its chief inquiries in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide. It is arranging to include within the scope of its investigations 100 families in each city. It is proposed that these families shall supply information as to the kind and price of the food purchased. Advertisements in this connexion are being inserted in the press. It would be interesting to know what amount of money is being spent in this connexion. We have been told that these figures were based on the work done during the last twelve months. The sum now proposed to be voted is one-sixth of the amount required for the year, so I presume that the work of the council will be continued as in the past, despite the cost of the press advertisements inviting people to supply lists showing the amount and cost of food purchased by them.

In the third report of the Advisory Council on Nutrition we read the following :-

In Queensland the social workers have succeeded in maintaining a total of 100 families in Brisbane. The difficulties being met with are of tlie same type and frequency as already reported; to the present day they have been circumvented and’ if necessary a fresh line of approach will be developed in the New Year.

The Queensland Nutrition Council has held further meetings, largely’ formal and deliberative in nature, the executive action being left in the hands of committees which act under responsibility to the council. The publicity committee has been very active and is sponsoring press and broadcast education in nutritional matters. The research committee has supervised inquiries into students’ dietaries, food wastage, minerals in nutrition (especially calcium and phosphorus requirements), and bread standards. It has also drafted a comprehensive five-year programme to estimate Upon a broad basis the extent and nature of nutritional problems throughout Queensland. This plan was reported in detail to the advisory council.

The council is to be congratulated on having investigated the matter from the Queensland- point of view. [Leave to continue given.] The opinion is generally held that the most complete food is milk. The advisory council is doing good work in drawing attention to this fact, but. pious resolutions of the Government do not result in large supplies of milk being made available to children who are much in need of nourishment. It is inconsistent for the Government, whilst saying that prosperity has returned to this country, to permit a Chinese to remain in Australia because he is said to be charitably inclined and in the habit of distributing free fruit and vegetables to the poor.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must confine his remarks to the subject before the committee.

Mr BAKER:

– The first report of the advisory council states:- =-

  1. Milk. - It is undeniable that the people of Austraia are not consuming as much milk as would be physiologically beneficial. This applies with especial force in the case of infants, children, pregnant women and nursing mothers. The present per capita consumption of milk should be greatly increased. Some evidence was before the council that the reason for the present low per capita consumption is to bc found in an inefficient and uneconomical system of production and distribution. It was stated that the method of organization of the milk industry resulted in high costs of distribution in relation to costs of production, and that, consequently people with small incomes, for whom this food is essentially and especially necessary, were unable to buy it in sufficient quantities.

Upon these aspects your council cannot formulate an opinion, but as the milk supply system is now under review in at least two capital cities, the council earnestly urges upon the authorities in those, and in all other urban centres, a rigorous examination of the system with the object of providing for the people a cheaper and purer1 - much purer - milk supply.

Opinions arc frequently expressed by the public that the pasteurization of milk is objectionable, for the reason that certain essential qualities of the milk are destroyed in the pasteurization process. This council states definitely that any constituent impaired by heating is replaced many times over in the other ingredients of an ordinary Australian diet. This has particular application in the case of infants for whom milk provides the main article of diet, In the feeding of infants heated milk should be supplemented by fruit juices and other similar sources of essential food principles.

The use of dried milk in the manufacture of bread is discussed with the question of broad generally (see below).

  1. Meat. - The per capita consumption of meat in Australia is high. This is an inevitable phase in the evolution of the Australian people - as of other nations in historical times. -The first stage in the expanding development of a country like Australia is pastoral. With increasing population this is replaced by agriculture. It is to be expected that the consumption of meat in Australia, already declining, will become gradually less. In any case, the high consumption of fresh meat is not in itself harmful ; and should not be so regarded.

But, in places where fresh or tinned meat is Of necessity the principal article of diet, vegetables and fruit should be generously added to the diet.

One aspect of this consumption of meat, however, deserves to be emphasized. The Australian, even (perhaps especially) the Australian on low income, demands only those cuts of meat which are popularly regarded as superior - steak, choice chops, and sirloins. It has been forcibly expressed that only the person with a larger income has the courage to prefer the other cuts’ and joints. One butcher stated to a member of this council that he found it difficult, in an industrial suburb, to sell the other portions of the carcass.

This is a prejudice which should be overcome by education. The best cuts nave no greater food value than the cheaper outs, and that class consciousness which impols the purchase of the best cuts only, is falsely based, and should have no place amongst the intelligent Australian people.

There is, however, a more important aspect of this meat question. There is a deeplyrooted prejudice in Australia against the eating of internal organs - brains, heart, liver, kidneys and sweetbreads. These contain special food factors which render them especially valuable as foods.

The following table shows the amounts of cheaper animal foods which can be bought in the Victoria Markets, Melbourne, for one shilling: - 3 lb. stewing steak (coarse). 3 lb. stewing steak (better quality). 3 lb. brains. 1½ ox tails. 2 ox hearts. 1 large mullet, weighing 6 lb. 1&1/3-1½ ox kidneys. 12 sheep’s hearts. 1&1/3 lb. bacon (coarse). 12 small mullet. 4 lb. ox. liver. 2½ lb. lamb’s liver. 3 lb. tripe.

This council urges the purchase and use as food of meat in these forms.

  1. Fruit and Vegetables. - In respect of these articles the same general considerations apply as were stated in the case of milk. The present cost very gravely restricts their consumption as food over a considerable portion ofthe Commonwealth. The means by which this great impediment to the proper feeding of the nation is to be overcome is economic in nature, and it is hardly the function of this council to suggest them. It is, moreover, imperative that means be found urgently for ensuring to the people of the interior districts a supply of fruit and vegetables constantly maintained - either through local production or carriage from the coastal districts.

The following statement of one week’s supply of goods landed by the weekly train at Birdum, Northern Territory, speaks more convincingly than anything this council might say: -

Benzine - many cases.

Potatoes - 2 bags.

Japanese onions - 2 crates.

Edam cheeses - 2 cases.

Melbourne bitter beer - 5 cases.

Rum - 2 small kegs.

Tinned milk - 1 half case.

Flour - 17 bags.

Soap - 1 case.

Tobacco - a quantity.

The recent Royal Commission of the Wheat, Flour” and Bread Industries was very concerned at the low level of quality reached by much of the bread made in Australia, particularly with reference to the rapidity with which it becomes stale: the commission considered that this was partly a matter for research and partly a matter dependent on the education of bakers. It made recommendations with respect to a scheme of research and also for the establishment of schools of baking in conjunction with the chief technical colleges in all capital cities of the Commonwealth.

This council expresses the opinion that wheat flour is not now being so used that the maximum food value or even the maximum aesthetic value is being obtained from it It is the duty of the manufacturers to supply a better and more nutritive article, and this council considers that it isthe duty of the flour millers and master bakers to follow the example of other industries - such as the wool industry - and combine to provide the financial resources necessary to establish research laboratories for the purpose of studying how to provide a better and more nourishing bread.

The royal commission referred to above recommended the consideration of the question of increasing the nutritive properties and palatability of bread by encouraging and/or enforcing the use of a certain amount of milk products in all bread made for public consumption. This council agrees that the addition of dried milk powder or dried whey powder would be a practicable method of greatly increasing the full value of bread, and commends this as a matter for research.

The council considers that, since the modern developments in the milling of cereals deprive them of essential food elements, the use of lightly milled cereals, and of potatoes, should be increased. An extension in the use of the latter should be made at the expense of sugar as a source of carbohydrates, since refined sugar provides energy without any of the essential mineral and protective factors and by exclusion lowers their intake in the diet.

Fish.- Although the popular idea of the special value of fish as an article of diet is not founded on fact, yet fish provide a valuable food and a welcome change in diet. It is clear that the absence of fish from the list of common or universal articles of diet arises from the lack of organization of the industry. The supply could with great advantage be increased.

The CHAIRMAN:

-The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr GARDEN:
Cook

.I have followed with considerable interest the somewhat lengthy extracts which the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Baker) has read from the reports of the Advisory Council on Nutrition, which are so informative that I propose shortly to quote further from them in order to show the part which the Government can play in the interests of the people and particularly the children of the poorer section of the community. The Government has always contended that its constitutional powers in the matter of health are extremely limited, and that any action taken in this matter must be done by the State authorities. A paragraph in the second report of the Council stated -

CO-OPERATION WITHIN THE SEVERAL STATES.

In the first report of this council, the question was asked in regard to the proposed survey of household dietaries: “ Would it ever, being sponsored by the Commonwealth Government, be considered as an invasion of State rights?”

It was then stated in this report that “ as to the question of State rights, this council cannot believe that this will be seriously raised. State governments have amply proven that they are vitally concerned for the welfare of their people, and they will, without doubt, welcome the work and findings of this council “.

Previously, the question of this inquiry was considered by the Federal Health Council at its meeting in Canberra in April. 1936. There was general agreement by the State representatives of that council that the co-operation of the Health departments of several States was assured.

In these circumstances, it would appear that, in the opinion of the council, the Commonwealth Government, in cooperation with the State governments, has sufficient power to act in the interests of the health of the nation. Following a meeting in June, the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) .asked the State Premiers if they were agreeable to co-operate, and in each case they stated that they were only too willing to supply information at their disposal. It is amazing to realize that in Australia, where there is an abundant supply of milk, little children are compelled to go without supplies, while the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) and others so circumstanced are able to purchase it in large quantities to feed their pet pigs, which, during these cold winter days, are rugged. The report continues -

Miss Carruthers, who started on 20th July, reported that -

She had made contact with 30 families in Auburn through the agency of the Free Kindergarten union, and they had all started keeping books. In most cases those which had been visited had proved to be interested, but some were unsatisfactory. (&) She had made contact with 25 homes in South Melbourne through the Baby Health Centres and with the aid of the Town Clerk. She had the advantage of very satisfactory introduction through the Sister, and she was of opinion that a majority of the families would keep records.

The Minister for Health has asked that a record be kept, but what is the use of such records unless action is taken? Miss Ruby A. Polkington, the supervisor controlling the collection of information by means of the diet book, reported: -

The past month has been occupied with an extensive scheme of planning, visitation and commissioning of students for “ follow-up “ work. Th co-operation of the Sisters at ten (10) centres has been sought, and visits made to them in this connexion. It has been most interesting to note the different methods of the Sisters in attacking the problem, and some, naturally, have been more helpful andmore fruitful than others. Contrary to popular belief, the smaller centres have proved the best for the purposes of the survey, for it -is in these that the Sister knows her people more intimately and thoroughly. For some time the districts served by the six centres of Alexandria, Glebe, Newtown, St. Peters, Surry Hills and Leichhardt were concentrated on, but lately contact has been made with Campsie, Ashfield, Burwood and Annandale, and some small beginning made. In the meantime, the Sisters of those centres, are looking out for suitable families. In the case of Campsie, it has been found easy to allocate that district (which is very spread out) to one of the students who lives at Lakemba.

A visit has also been made to the Dental Hospital, and details of the survey discussed with one of the nurses on the staff. To date (7th September), 97 record books have been distributed, and all of these homes have been visited, the majority being of the semidetached or terrace variety, with never more than four rooms and a kitchen, &c., though most likely three has been more general, but wireless sets universal! The families are naturally a picked group, and would probably show high average intelligence, and in most cases quite decently kept homes. Very few of the small children seem to attend kindergarten, largely, I should think, through lack of same in so many localities. A few cases of rickets have been noted, and latterly whooping cough and chicken pox has interfered with keeping food records. Extremely few of the mothers have failed to show interest in the project, though in some cases the interest has sadly waned, and in a few others the husband has been the excuse for failure and subsequent refusal to keep a record. The first student to begin on the “ follow-up “ set out on 3rd August, and since then seven others have followed rapidly on. Latterly more time has been put into consolidating this part of the work, and now we are calling in books that have been kept over periods of two, three and four weeks.

Miss Dodd, who started on the 3rd August, reported: -

The inquiry through State School Mothers’ Clubs has not been satisfactory. It need* some previous introduction on a more personal relationship such as exists in a kindergarten between the director and mothers to establish a willing basis of co-operation. Moreover I have ascertained that the members of Mothers’ Clubs are not necessarily mothers of children at the school, and very often are elderly.

Lithgow State School, Collingwood: At the first meeting ten books were placed from a group of fourteen. Mothers were not desirous of being visited, but agreed to meet again in two weeks. However, they, were visited. At the meeting, two books were handed in, and of the remaining eight, seven have been commenced, but are at different stages. t&) Victoria Park School (fifteen present) five books were placed. They have been visited twice. No objection to visiting here.

East Kew School (twenty at meeting) nine books placed, but were not willing to be visited. Contact is being maintained through the secretary. (<Z) Richmond Kindergarten. Ten books placed. This is a group of large families specially chosen for that reason.

Three books placed in Collingwood and Clifton Hill from names sent in to newspapers. Have been visited twice.

I trust that the governments will take heed of the recommendations of the committee which it has appointed to inquire into health matters. I hope that its expenditure on this investigation will not be wasted and that the efforts of the Minister for Health in addressing kindergarten and mothers’ clubs throughout the country will not be proved to have been in vain. Furthermore the Government should provide free milk for children attending school. During the winter in those localities, dealt with in the reports I have just read, it should provide at least one hot meal daily for school children. I support the remarks of the honorable member for Griffith in respect of the Government’s health policy.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr FROST:
Franklin

The root of the problem of improving the health of our people lies in the institution of a modern housing scheme and, until we attend to that aspect of the matter, we cannot expect to develop a healthy race. In practically every country endeavours are being made to improve the housing of the people and to provide proper nourishment to .expectant mothers and young children. In Tasmania, where a Nationalist government was in office for nearly 70 years, before the advent of recent Labour administrations, the old hospital in Hobart has done service for over 100 years. It is a ratinfested institution and one could not imagine a more prolific breeding ground for germs. Anti-Labour governments in that State told the people that they would have to do the best they could with the hospital, pleading that they could not afford the money to replace it with a new building. To-day the present government in that State has taken this matter in hand and has erected modern hospitals, not only in Hobart but also in Launceston and “Wynyard, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of pounds. This will represent the only money expended in this direction in Tasmania for many years. Recently the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) told the women of that State that they should bear more children, because Australia needed to increase its population rapidly. If children were properly cared for. and provided with nutritious food there would be no occasion for any member of this Government to beg its people to increase the rate of population. To-day it is a common experience for a young expectant mother to receive the sympathy of her circle of friends because, in most cases, it seems obvious that the parents, in trying to make ends meet on the basic wage, will not really be able to care for the newcomer properly. The Government should do everything in its power to improve the health of the people, and I trust that in the coming year it will be much more generous in this respect than it has been in the past.

Sitting suspended from 7.55 a.m. to 2 p.m.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

.- In an address delivered at that very exclusive establishment in Sydney, known as the Millions Club, the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes), speaking feelingly of the woeful position of the Australian children who were undernourished and ill clad, said that no less than 40 per cent, of the children of Australia are suffering from the effects of malnutrition. The right honorable gentleman added, however, that although the Commonwealth Government could not do much for those unfortunate children, it was conducting an inquiry into the matter. By the time that inquiry has been concluded, those ill-nourished children will either be dead or will have grown to manhood and womanhood and probably, in turn, brought into the world children handicapped from their very birth. It is all very well for the Minister for Health to draw public attention to this unfortunate state of affairs, but what is the Government doing about it? This is a matter which brooks no delay. Apparently all that the Government can do is to talk eternally about .it and do nothing. The Government is apparently content to say, “ We will have an inquiry into the matter, but responsibility for it is not the concern of the Commonwealth “. I want to know now what the Government proposes to do to assist those children who are suffering from malnutrition. If it can do nothing, what is to be the future of the Australian race? When these ill-nourished children grow up what sort of parents will they make? The honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) may laugh; he is well fed, sleek and fat and does not appreciate the seriousness of this matter.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order ! I ask the honorable member to address his remarks to the Chair.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– I ask you, Mr. Chairman, to tell the honorable member for Macquarie to mend his maimers.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! I ask the honorable member to address his remarks to the subject before the Chair.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– While I am addressing myself to this important subject, the honorable member for Macquarie is bursting with laughter. Apparently the honorable member finds, humour in the fact that 40 per cent, of the children of Australia are suffering from malnutrition. No. wonder this sort of thing continues, and the Government can go on perpetrating its misdeeds when honorable members opposite find amusement in a subject such as this. Despite the seriousness of this matter, we have the spectacle of a responsible Minister of State, with a long political experience, making the announcement that, though he knows that the percentage of ill-nourished children in the community is so high, his Government can do no more than conduct an inquiry into the matter. These ill-nourished children are the future citizens of Australia, and within a short space of time, if they live, will be reproducing the Australian race. What are the prospects of building up in this country a healthy virile race if the Government does not use-all of its resources in order to see that our young citizens are properly nourished, clothed and housed? Much has been said recently of the necessity for spending £12,000,000 on defence. What is the use of providing such a huge sum of money for the defence of this country if, at the same time, nothing is done to ensure that its future defenders are properly nourished in their childhood? It sounds like a madman’s dream. When I read the speech delivered by the Minister for Health at the Millions Club in Sydney, I thought that, following upon the disclosures he then made, the Commonwealth Government would at least take active steps to tackle the evil. Yet the right honorable gentleman contents himself with saying here that he and his Government can do nothing in regard to it. He is condemned out of his own mouth for his attitude and that of the Government in regard to this important matter. What has the honorable member for Lilley (Sir Donald Cameron) to say about it? Recently we listened to him making a plea on behalf of the young men of Australia. Unless something is done to counteract the evil effects of malnutrition, many of our children will never reach adult age. It is all very fine for honorable members opposite who have never known want, to express sympathy in regard to the matter; “sympathy butters no parsnips”. The attitude of ‘ such honorable members’ reminds me of the words of the old song in which the sympathetic rich, well fed and wrapped in furs, watched the paupers’ feast in the poorhouses of England. We want something better than that in this country, and we will get it before very long. Not very long hence, steps will be taken to rectify this outstanding menace to the white race in Australia. I appeal to the Government; before it closes the doors of this Parliament, after having sat only a few hours lft six months, to do something to counteract that feeling of uncertainty in the future of our race which is engendered by the knowledge that so many young children are’ suffering from the effects of malnutrition’.’ Unless the matter is dealt with urgently and effectively, the white race in Australia will become degraded physically, and mental and moral degradation will soon follow. However, it appears that this Government is rushing to close the doors of the Parliament, turning its back upon this ugly thing because it has not the courage or the capacity to face it. I hope, however, that even at this late hour of the present sittings the Government will pluck up courage to face this evil which threatens the very existence of the white race in Australia.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- I should like to hear from the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) what his department has accomplished as the result of the various activities under its control. Maternity mortality, in which the Minister said he was taking a very deep interest, and also the decline of the birth-rate ‘ are matters upon which this Parliament should be fully informed. The right honorable gentleman said that he was having a survey made of the birth-rate of Australia and that the Commonwealth Government was taking certain steps in regard to it - I do not know by what means. I should like to know whether any improvement of the birth-rate has resulted from his propaganda speeches in the capital cities of Australia. I give the right honorable gentleman credit for at least having put the position of the Minister for Health and Repatriation on the front page of the newspapers of Australia. We are now asked to grant £20,000 for a period of two months to finance the activities of the Health Department. For the year just closing we voted £125,450 for the department. That is a comparatively small sum of money, taking into consideration the importance of the activities of the Health Department to the people of Australia. The health of- the people and the root causes that militate against it should be the main consideration of any government. I contend, however, that health could be substantially .improved by a general uplifting of economic and social conditions. I should like the Minister to give to the committee some information as to the progress of the work carried out by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories at Royal Park, which constitute a shining example of a State enterprise which has withstood the competition of the commercial chemical monopolies that operate in Australia to-day. A good deal of pressure has been brought to bear against the growth of the serum laboratories, which to-day are noted for the production of sera and vaccines for immunization from, and inoculation against, quite a number of diseases that are more or less prevalent in this country. What is the Minister doing to widen the scope of the operations of the laboratories? Has he taken steps to have presented to this Parliament an annual report by the Director-General of Health showing the activities of the Health Department and what it has accomplished? If we are to provide a sum of money for a public department, even the comparatively small sum of £150,000, we have, a right to know what is being accomplished for that expenditure. When the Commonwealth census was taken it was disclosed that 965,000 children under sixteen years of age, or 50 per cent, of the juvenile population of Australia, belonged to parents receiving £3 or less a week. That is a deplorable state of affairs, and it is no wonder that the Advisory Committee found numerous instances of malnutrition, particularly- among the children of Australia. Fortunately, there has recently been a slight improvement of the basic wage, but even with earnings at . the new level it is well nigh impossible for men with large families to pay house rent and clothe, educate and feed their children properly. Dr. Black, of New South Wales, writing ‘in the Australian Medical Journal, pointed out that in Australia there are more than 200,000 unemployed who have wives, children and other dependants. This means that probably there ‘ are 500,000 people without enough food, badly housed, and poorly clothed. Has the Minister given any consideration’ to this aspect of the matter? In his address to the Millions Club, the right honorable gentleman said that of Australia’s 2,000,000 children 40 per cent., or 800,000, were suffering from malnutrition. In one year 1,680,000 persons were admitted to public hospitals in Australia, while the infantile death rate rose from 48 to 50 a thousand. The Minister realizes the great importance of the native born child to our community and how much preferable it is to the migrant who is brought to this country at huge cost and is probably doomed to failure and likely to ask to be repatriated so that he may extend the line of sandwich-men who parade outside Australia House with placards defaming Australia. In Victoria in 1936 2,000 girls aged from fourteen to fifteen sought permission to take employment in factories at wages of from 8s. to 14s. a week. These girls, because of the economic depression and because of the small income of their parents, are forced to go into factories at fourteen years of age to work for a. mere pittance during the period when they should have plenty of nourishment, sunshine and exercise, instead of being cooped-up and sweated in factories. The remedy is to improve the standard of living of the parents, so that it will not be necessary to send girls to work in factories at fourteen years of age.

Has the Minister softened his heart to that deputation which waited upon him in Sydney with a request that the Commonwealth Government should make milk available to children in the poorer areas of Australia ? He will probably say that this is a matter for the State governments, but the State governments have no money. Generally speaking they have deficits and have to curtail expenditure while the Commonwealth Government has buoyant revenues; its surpluses during the period in which this Government has been in office have amounted to well over £10,000,000. Some of that money should be made available to purchase milk for those children for whom the Minister has said his heart bleeds. It is amazing to find that the per capita consumption of milk -in Australia amounts to only 20 gallons a head per annum, whereas, in Switzerland it is 58 gallons, the United States of America 39 gallons, Denmark 36 gallons, New Zealand 28 gallons, and

Britain,” France and Germany 23 gallons. I invite the Minister’s attention to what has been appearing in some of the Sydney newspapers regarding the deplorable state of affairs that exists among the people of Sydney. The Sydney Sun of the 8bh September, 1936, dealing with this question, said -

It is hard to see how parents on the dole can possibly afford to give a family of children the milk, butter and eggs which should form such a large part of their diet. (That such a state of affairs should exist in a country of less than 7,000,000 people, with food (production at least large enough for three times that number is no credit to the organization of the community.

If we cannot afford to see that our present population of under 7,000,000 is properly fed, what is the use of talking about a population of 14 or 70 millions.

The Minister will have seen that report, as it will have been brought to his notice either by his private secretary or by the Commonwealth DirectorGeneral of Health. Has the Minister formulated any long range policy to deal with the unfortunate plight of those parents who are not able to purchase sufficient milk and nourishing food for their little children? Of course, malnutrition is not confined to Australia. It is one of the weaknesses of the capitalistic system the contrasts of which, since the depression, have become even more accentuated than before, because now in many instances the rich have become richer and, generally, the poor have become poorer. There are large accumulations of wealth in the world, and yet there are millions of people suffering dire poverty. That malnutrition exists in England is evident from the report in the Sydney Daily Telegraph of the 9th November, 1936, that 70 per cent, of the recruits for the British Army were rejected, half on the ground of physical unfitness, and half on. the ground of medical unfitness. Because of the callous indifference shown to his representations by the governments of New South Wale3 and the Commonwealth, the Reverend Canon Hammond of Sydney, a humane worker for the poor, was forced to point out that the allowance for each animal in the Sydney Lost Dogs’ Home is 7s. 6d. a week, while only 3s. 6d. a week is allowed for each relief worker’s child. According to these figures it costs twice as much to keep a dog in the Lost Dogs’ Home than is necessary for the sustenance of a relief worker’s child. Professor Huxley, Secretary of the Zoological Society in London, said that if all the children in Britain enjoyed food as good as that given to the apes” at the London Zoo> the national physique and health would be considerably better. The extremes of wealth and poverty are among the weaknesses of the capitalistic system, and it is fair and reasonable to call upon the rich to pay extra taxes if necessary to make it possible to give to the children of the poor milk, nourishing foods and warm clothing. Sir John Orr has estimated that half the population of England is under-nourished, and on the 27th February, 1926, Mr. Gr. Hall (Labour) directed attention to the fact that an examination by skilled medical officers revealed that 57 per cent, of the trainees at four instructional centres were suffering from malnutrition. What we find in England we also find in Australia. Dr. Hilda Bull, in her report to the Medical Health Officer, Melbourne, pointed out that of the 219 children between two and three years, only 26.5 per cent, were without defects.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr HUGHES:
Minister for Health · North Sydney · UAP

.- The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) has asked me some questions which I shall do my best to answer. The honorable member would hardly expect me to follow him over that wide range which he covered, except in a very general way. He knows very well that I have endeavoured to arouse the interest of the people of this country to the unsatisfactory state of public health. I agree that this is to be deplored, but I am afraid that I am unable, as the honorable gentleman so readily does, to attribute the prevalence of sickness and ill health to economic conditions, or, as I have no doubt the honorable gentleman is able to do, to attach them most firmly to the sins of omission and commission of the Government of which I have the honour to be a member. I remind him that most of the conditions of which he complains have universal application. In every civilized country there is an alarming amount of sickness. I am inclined to think that the basic cause of ill health to-day is ,to be found in the conditions of modern life. In the short space of time at my command, I cannot set out the position, and I do not propose to say more than that, while we have inherited the appetites of our ancestors, we have been thrown into an entirely different environment. We seek to satisfy those appetites without that corrective physical exercise that was part of the very existence of our ancestors, and we live on a devitalized and denatured diet. I agree with the honorable gentleman as to the need to supply milk to children; but unhappily I find everywhere enthusiasm for the principle, but a most ominous reluctance to give effect to it; and this applies to all sorts and conditions of governments. Turning to another phase of this question, it is to be noted that the number of persons who annually pass through hospitals in Queensland is more than 30 per cent, of the population of the State; that is extraordinary in a climate so salubrious as that of Queensland. In the public hospitals of New South Wales 684,000 persons are treated each year; those figures take no cognizance of the number of persons who are treated in private hospitals or attended by medical men in private practice, and the proportion of sick to the total population applies throughout the Commonwealth.- There is decidedly something rotten in the state of Denmark. I do not believe for one moment that the cause of this ill health is mainly economic, much less that the responsibility for its existence can be attached to government policy. At that point I leave this subject, as I shall have opportunity to deal with it at greater length in my second-reading speech on the Medical Research Bill, which is now before this Parliament.

The honorable member for Capricornia sought some information about the Royal Park Serum Laboratory. He said that it was a State institution and a very successful one. He will not expect me to couch a lance in support of capitalism. On the contrary, I rejoice in this proof that a State institution can, in some circumstances, be entirely successful, and that it can compete with satisfaction to itself and to the community, against commercialism. The honorable gentleman will, of course, realize that in this matter a layman must just pass on the information which he receives from the experts. This institution has been in existence since 1915. The honorable member will quite appreciate that it was not necessarily welcomed by those firms that were engaged in the manufacture of sera and kindred articles. At the present time, it is supplying over 70 different products, including practically all the vaccines, sera, glandular extracts for human use, and many others for veterinary purposes. The products of the Royal Park laboratory rank high in the estimation of, and are generally accepted by, the medical profession, although it is admitted that some practitioners prefer certain imported articles. It has also to be observed that these products are sold at competitive prices, which are either lower, or at any rate not higher, than the prices of the corresponding imported articles. The laboratory is conducted on a commercial basis and, judged by the ordinary standards of business, it has justified itself, l t makes a profit over and above working expenses, which is applied for the extension of its operations.

Mr Forde:

– Will the right honorable gentleman explain what action the Government has taken in reference to maternal mortality ?

Mr HUGHES:

– As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is well aware, the Commonwealth Government made available a sum of £50,000, and was responsible for the launching of a campaign which brought in nearly £200,000, subscribed in part by the State governments and in part by the general public. The honorable gentleman will appreciate the fact that the Commonwealth has no direct control, outside of quarantine, over the expenditure of any moneys that are raised for these or any kindred purposes. The money was distributed among the States, and Queensland received its share. I suggest that the honorable gentleman should, in his all too scanty leisure, look at the record- of maternal mortality in Queensland, and if it has not fallen - I think that I can assure him that it has not done so - he should seek the reason, because the Government of Queensland has had its share of the amount raised in that campaign. What I have said in regard to the Queensland Government is equally applicable to the governments of the other States. The money - nearly £200,000 - was raised and distributed among the States. The money was intended to be used to reduce the mortality of mothers and their infants. Maternal mortality is not falling, nor is mortality of infants under the age of one month. What is more to the point, for every woman who dies in childbirth, from six to ten others have their health seriously shattered through bringing children into the world. All these things go to the very root of our national life. In view of the fact that migration has ceased, and the birth-rate has fallen, every life is additionally precious, and from the fecund wombs of our women alone can the reservoir of our national life be filled. Although the Commonwealth has done all that lies in its power to arouse the attention of the general public, and to place funds at the disposal of those who are able to control expenditure in connexion with this matter, for some reason or other the mortality rate has not fallen. I deeply regret that it has not done so. When I am discussing this measure dealing with medical research, I shall endeavour to advance the reason for this state of affairs. In the meantime, I commend to the committee these Estimates, and express my entire agreement with the statement of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that the amount of money available in this country for health preservation and research is woefully disproportionate to the importance of these activities.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

– The reference by the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) to the alarming extent of sickness throughout Australia, and particularly in New South Wales, gives cause for much concern. I feel that the constitutional barriers that are alleged to exist, as between the Commonwealth and the States, ought to be set aside, or overcome, especially when the burning necessity for a radical alteration of our health administration is generally admitted. During the war the right honorable gentleman took steps to introduce legislation to overcome all kinds of constitutional barriers in order, as be claimed, to bring thai struggle to a successful issue. In the fight for the health of the people, and in order to combat the alarming increase of sickness in the community we have a right to expect that similar drastic steps will be taken by the Commonwealth Government on purely national grounds if on no other. In view of this past record, if for no other reason, I should imagine that the right honorable gentleman ought to be in the forefront of those demanding immediate Commonwealth action in regard to this matter. The Minister is not the only person who has spoken from the ministerial side of the House upon this subject. I remember that the policy speech made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) contained special reference to the matter of maternity and child welfare, and the wife of the right honorable gentleman has been very prominent in making speeches on the subject. But somehow or other, we seem not to get beyond a long series of talks upon this subject; no real practical steps have been devised for the purpose of achieving some tangible results^ This discussion may lead to a greater measure of sympathy being extended to the Minister for Health by his colleagues in an endeavour to make some progress in health matters; but for some reason he does not seem to be disposed to ventilate his knowledge of the obstacles to more effective action. The Opposition admits that the causes of sickness are not entirely due to the Government of the day, but the causes of such sickness can be accentuated by the failure of the Government to take remedial or preventive action. “We do not suggest for one moment that the entire blame for the spread of sickness and disease through the Australian community can be placed on anybody’s shoulders; some persons are naturally not so strong physically as are others. But, at the same time, the fact cannot be denied that the economic conditions of a country, and the failure to provide for the poor, adequate nourishment and warm apparel in winter, must have a serious effect upon the health of the people. Extending over a period of years, such neglect must eventually take toll of the community, and the menace extends even to those persons who may at the present time enjoy good health; for if we reach a stage when serious diseases stalk the land, none of us will be immune from them; even those who are well cared for and in a financial position to provide for their requirements, run the risk of epidemics spreading to their quarter. We cannot shift the responsibility to other shoulders on the plea that it does not affect us. On the contrary, all persons should be concerned about it, even if only for the sake of selfpreservation. The Government should take the necessary steps, however farreaching, to meet the peril. I have discussed this matter with gentlemen who have taken an active interest in hospital work, and they pointed out that we lack a good deal in not teaching the school children the rudiments of health, and how to care for themselves in the early stages of some minor complaints. It has often been suggested to me that the educational system might be encouraged along those lines. If a person contracts an ordinary cold, there are common remedies that can be applied in the early stages to prevent the complaint from spreading and becoming more serious. This applies also to many other complaints from which sections of the community from time to time suffer. If the youngsters are not taught these things, they cannot be expected when they grow up to manhood and womanhood, to put into practice for themselves or their children, these preventivemeasures. I think that this suggestion is worthy of consideration. There is also something to be said in regard to our hospital system. In New South Wales, for example, doctors are called upon to attend a number of wards daily, and in the space of two or three hours to examine upwards of 100 patients. Such a practice, in my opinion, is most unsatisfactory. It seems to me that the matter of health and the general welfare of the people call for immediate attention. Recently, I attended the opening of new nurses’ quarters at a hospital situated in my electorate, and I was astounded to hear the Minister for Health mention the alarming increase during recent years of the inmates, of not only general hospitals, but mental hospitals as well. That matter also calls for attention because, from what I can gather, many of these conditions arise from economic causes and the misfortunes that have befallen men who once enjoyed the comforts of life, and, of course, many others who have -never been fortunately situated. I am unable to recall the figure of the increased percentage of insanity quoted by the Minister, but it was the most alarming feature of his address. I fear that the conditions in any one State will be found to obtain in the other States.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) was about to comment on a report submitted to the Melbourne City Council towards the close of last year, and I feel that, it is desirable to give some tangible evidence of what is actually happening in relation to youngsters. Dr. Hilda Bull, under the direction of the Chief Medical Officer of Health, Dr. John Dale, presented the following report which deals with the children of the City of Melbourne -

The records are of 1,009 separate children who received medical examination. The majority of them were medically examined once, and attended the Sister for regular weighing and advice.- Two hundred and fiftyfour were examined at least twice; some of these who needed watching attended for medical examination three or four times during the year.

They picked out 1,009 children, because it was felt that thereby they were getting a reasonable cross section of all the children which might be examined in the city for the purposes of determining the extent of malnutrition and other childish disorders. This is what the report stated -

The increasing evidence of malnutrition with age is very marked. At two years of age 16 per cent, were under weight, at three years 18 per cent., at four years 23 per cent., and at five years 43 per cent, were malnourished as judged by Emerson’s standards.

Mr Hughes:

– The honorable member is quoting Dr. Dale, I presume?

Mr BEASLEY:

– Yes. The report continued -

It is obviously more difficult to feed a child on a restricted income with every year of its growth. The milk and cod liver oil provided by the council form a larger proportion of an infant’s diet than of that of an older child, and we were forced during the year to reduce the supply to the older children so as to keep within the estimated cost.

That is a severe indictment of us all. None of us can escape responsibility when it is demonstrated that the percentage of malnutrition is so high as 43. This is not mere propaganda that I have been quoting, but a recital of the plain facts. The same doctor discusses rickets in the following terms: -

The difficulty of establishing a standard for diagnosing rickets in children is very great.

Mr Holt:

– The honorable member has omitted the preceding sentence.

Mr BEASLEY:

– Yes, I omitted the sentence which states that rickets of the kind prevalent in England during the war is rare in Australia, but then I do not know what kind of rickets prevailed in England at that time. The report proceeds -

I divided the cases into those showing definite evidence and those showing signs, not very definite for the most part, which suggested errors in calcification of bones allied to rickets. As this classification of “ slight “ rickets seems to correspond very fairly with that adopted during recent English investigations it may be of interest - to publish the results, always admitting that the personal factor may be a source of controversy. Of definite rickets 1 recorded only 3 per cent.; but many presented such signs as knock-knees, frontal and parietal .bossing, bowed tibae and femora, depressed or malformed chests, prominent abdomens, and of these knock-knees was the most common and disabling of the symptoms.

It may be true that the position is not so bad. in Australia as it was in England during the war, but it is evident that many thousands of children in Australia are suffering from bone malformations. The following section of the report discusses the relation existing between rickets and caries : -

The curious fact observed was that as the ricketty conditions declined, caries became more marked. Malnutrition and caries are both more common in the older children. In our experience as has just been noted the bony changes associated with rickets became more rare as age advanced. It is possible that the growing skeleton has a preference over the teeth if both are fighting ‘ for the same materials, if the supply of these is not sufficient.

The last point is very interesting, because we hear a great deal of comment now regarding children’s bad teeth, and the rapidity with which they decay and have to be extracted or filled. According to this doctor there exists competition between the child’s bones and his teeth for the available food supply, and if the supply is not sufficient the teeth suffer.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr MAHONEY:
Denison

.- The Government - should do something more to reduce the present unduly high rate of maternal mortality. Recent statistics reveal that, far from decreasing, the rate of maternal mortality has actually increased. It is evident that the grant made by the Commonwealth to the States for work in this regard is not sufficient to deal effectively with the problem. One of the chief factors contributing to the high rate of maternal mortality is the inability of mothers among the poorer sections of the community to obtain proper medical attendance before and after the birth of their children. The Commonwealth should co-operate with the State authorities in the carrying out of a scheme whereby mothers could go into hospital and receive proper attention. If it were possible for them to receive earlier prenatal treatment, and to receive attention for longer periods after the birth of their children, the rate pf mortality would bo. greatly reduced. In a great many instances the mother has to go back to her work too soon after childbirth. She has probably other children to attend to, and she is not able to have sufficient time for rest and recuperation. I have no doubt that the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) is aware of the need for protecting the mothers of the nation, and he must understand, therefore, that the Commonwealth is not doing all that it should to assist in this work. I understand that approximately 800 mothers die in childbirth each year, while no fewer than 2,000 babies are lost annually. If Australia is to maintain its place in the world it is necessary to increase the birth-rate, and it is of no use for the Minister for Health to go on talking if he does nothing to ensure that maternity is made safer for the women of Australia. The present position is a t tragedy

Of course, there arc several factors which bear upon this problem- One of them is the conditions under which the poor have to live, the inferior housing that is available to them, and the low incomes they receive. There is a duty devolving upon the Commonwealth Government to assist in the provision of better housing, and the abolition of slums, so that the poorer people may rear their children under decent conditions. The report quoted by the honorable member for “West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) regarding malnutrition among children reveals an alarming state of affairs. It is evident that many parents have not sufficient income properly to feed their growing children. Every parent will understand that as their children grow up they need more nourishment, but very often this cannot be provided out of the wages the family receives. The Commonwealth Government should come to the assistance of parents, and ensure that all children are properly fed until they are fourteen years of age at least. I have no doubt whatever that the low incomes of many families account for the prevalence of malnutrition among children, and if we are to abolish the evil we must get down to root causes.

The Commonwealth . should also do something more to help the mother with a family, who loses her husband. It is all very well to say that this is a Statu responsibility, but I do not agree that that is so. It is’ the responsibility of the nation as a whole to look a”fter those mothers of families who have been left without a “breadwinner. It is known that some mothers, while suckling children, have had to live practically on bread and dripping. How is it possible to rear children under those conditions? Only the fittest can survive. Pictures have appeared in the press of the Minister for Health opening baby shows in wealthy suburbs. Why does he not go among the poorer sections of the community in which the largest number of babies is born and see the conditions under which children are there being reared? If he did so, I am confident that he would impress on the Government the necessity for substantial expenditure, in co-operation with the States, for the preservation of the welfare of the greatest asset that either this or any other nation can have - the natural born child. At the last Federal elections the Prime Minister (Mr- Lyons) promised that if returned to power effective steps would be taken by his Government to reduce maternal and infant mortality. That ‘there has been an increase of the death rate in both cases proves that that promisehas not been fulfilled. Unquestionably many mothers voted for Government candidates because of it. I hope that at the next elections the womanhood of this country will vote this Government out of office on account of that failure. I appeal to the Minister for Health to induce the Government to act upon the lines that I I have suggested.

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) put -

That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 35

NOES: 22

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Question - That the House will at a later hour this day again resolve itself into the said committee - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.)

AYES: 36

NOES: 23

Majority 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Declaration of Urgency.

Mr MENZIES:
Acting Treasurer · Kooyong · UAP

– I declare the bill an urgent bill.

Question - That the bill is an urgent bill - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.)

AYES: 36

NOES: 23

Majority . .13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative. allotment of TlME.

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) proposed -

That the time allotted in connexion with the bill be as follows: -

Mr CURTIN:
Fremantle

.- The procedure now adopted by the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) has been made necessary because of the complete incapacity of the Government properly to submit legislation to this chamber so that it may be dealt with in an ordinary way. That incapacity is due, basically, to the unwillingness of the Ministry to meet Parliament in accordance with the undertaking given to me by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) before Christmas that the House would reassemble in March, 1937, but the deferment of the summoning of Parliament until within a fortnight of the close of the financial year is another contributory cause. Even when the Government did summon Parliament, we were delayed in our consideration of government business by the decision to have a formal opening of the session following upon a prorogation. Now we have a most extraordinary spectacle. After having allowed a great deal of time for the discussion of the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), apparently because it was more concerned about that debate, having its attention focussed on the coming election, than about the passing of the Supply Bill, the Government is seeking to deprive honorable members of adequate time fairly to consider the details of the measure before them. There is another curious feature of our immediate circumstances. Although it is now only twenty-five minutes past three o’clock, this sitting has already extended more than 24 hours, and it is technically after eleven o’clock p.m. of the sitting of yesterday, so that the Standing Orders preclude the Government from introducing new business. I do not know what it is proposed to do after the consideration of the Supply Bill has been completed, but obviously Ministers are hopelessly confused in the presentation of business. Furthermore, despite the fact that it has an overwhelming majority the Government is not able to muster 38 members at this sitting to carry a motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders. It is apparent, therefore, that not only has it lost support in the country, but it is also unable to ensure the attendance of its remaining supporters in the House in order to control public business. I protest against the provision in the motion that the consideration of the committee stage of this bill, which includes consideration of the business undertakings of the Government, must be completed by five o’clock to-day. This is, undoubtedly, a stultification of the deliberative competence of the committee. It is highly desirable that honorable members shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity to explain to the Government the needs of their constituents. It might have been expected that Ministers would accept this discussion as an expression of the mind of the electors by which it could

Question so resolved in the affirmative. allotment of TlME.

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) proposed -

That the time allotted in connexion with the bill be as follows: -

For the remainder of the committee stage, until 5 o’clock p.m.

For the remaining stages, until 5.20 o’clock p.m.

Mr CURTIN:
Fremantle

.- The procedure now adopted by the Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) has been made necessary because of the complete incapacity of the Government properly to submit legislation to this chamber so that it may be dealt with in an ordinary way. That incapacity is due, basically, to the unwillingness of the Ministry to meet Parliament in accordance with the undertaking given to me by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) before Christmas that the House would reassemble in March, 1937, but the deferment of the summoning of Parliament until within a fortnight of the close of the financial year is another contributory cause. Even when the Government did summon Parliament, we were delayed in our consideration of government business by the decision to have a formal opening of the session following upon a prorogation. Now we have a most extraordinary spectacle. After having allowed a great deal of time for the discussion of the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), apparently because it was more concerned about that debate, having its attention focussed on the coming election, than about the passing of the Supply Bill, the Government is seeking to deprive honorable members of adequate time fairly to consider the details of the measure before them. There is another curious feature of our immediate circumstances. Although it is now only twenty-five minutes past three o’clock, this sitting has already extended more than 24 hours, and it is technically after eleven o’clock p.m. of the sitting of yesterday, so that the Standing Orders preclude the Government from introducing new business. I do not know what it is proposed to do after the consideration of the Supply Bill has been completed, but obviously Ministers are hopelessly confused in the presentation of business. Furthermore, despite the fact that it has an overwhelming majority the Government is not able to muster 38 members at this sitting to carry a motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders. It is apparent, therefore, that not only has it lost support in the country, but it is also unable to ensure the attendance of its remaining supporters in the House in order to control public business. I protest against the provision in the motion that the consideration of the committee stage of this bill, which includes consideration of the business undertakings of the Government, must be completed by five o’clock to-day. This is, undoubtedly, a stultification of the deliberative competence of the committee. It is highly desirable that honorable members shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity to explain to the Government the needs of their constituents. It might have been expected that Ministers would accept this discussion as an expression of the mind of the electors by which it could be guided in the preparation of the budget and Estimates. As there “will be no adequate discussion of the bill the Government will be more or less unacquainted with the collective views of the committee on many matters of primary concern in the constituencies.

Sir Henry Gullett:

– Because of a gross waste of time.

Mr CURTIN:

– The former Minister directing negotiations for trade treaties (Sir Henry Gullett) occupied as much time as many other honorable members in a recent debate, but he has not yet seen fit to tell us why he left the Ministry.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Acting Prime Minister · Cowper · CP

– It is quite obvious that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) realizes the justification for the action now being taken by the Government. He has offered us no explanation of or excuse for the extraordinary spectacle witnessed in this chamber from one o’clock to eight o’clock a.m. this day when the Opposition benches were deserted by all except three members who carried on a discussion which would have been a disgrace to a kindergarten. The Leader of the Opposition and his deputy (Mr. Forde) were so ashamed of the figure cut by their colleagues, that they would not remain in the chamber, but left such of the rank and file as were present to maintain the debate. The Leader of the Opposition says that the Government should allow more time than is provided in the motion for the consideration of the remaining stages of the bill. One reason why honorable members will not have at least fifteen minutes longer for this purpose is that the Opposition has just demanded divisions on three formal motions: first, the motion to report progress; secondly, the motion to authorize the House to go into committee at a later hour; and, thirdly, the declaration of urgency. All this time, of course, will now be taken off the time available for the discussion of the remaining stages of the bill. We shall see later what measure of sincerity there is in the request for more time to discuss the votes proposed for the departments that still have to be considered. If honorable members opposite continue to demand divisions they will show that they are not really sincere in their protestations. If they were, they would allow this motion to pass without further discussion. If the records of this Parliament were studied from the beginning of federation until to-day, it would probably be found that more time has_ been given to the consideration of this measure than to any other Supply Bill. When I suggested that the House should meet on Monday for the purpose of making more time available for the consideration of the measure, protests arose from the section of the Opposition from which they usually come.

Honorable members interjecting.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon G J Bell:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

What is being done is in accordance with the provisions of the Standing Orders. These noisy interruptions are disorderly and must cease. Honorable members may make their protests in- debate.

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– It is necessary that the bill should be passed by the 30th June, so that the members of the Public Service and the invalid and old-age pensioners may receive their pay on the 2nd July, but the Opposition says : “ We refuse- to grant Supply.” By adopting that attitude they decline to pay the public servants by the usual time.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- The Acting Treasurer (Mr. Menzies) insulted our intelligence by using the old argument : “ You do not want Supply passed. You do not want anybody to be paid.” The Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page) followed that up by remarking that if we fail to put this measure through we shall hold up the pay of the pensioners; but no provision is made under this bill for the payment of pensions. It is a special appropriation, this bill covering only the salaries of officers administering the pensions and other departments. The claim that the Opposition does not wish anybody to be paid is paltry and untrue. Since 10.47 p.m. yesterday, we have approved of the payment of £3,276,000, an average of £300,000 an hour. If certain honorable members are prepared to act “ like dumb, driven cattle,” we on this side will not submit to such treatment. Until grievances have been heard, no government is entitled to Supply. Many helpful suggestions have already been made in this debate. In less than 100 minutes, the committee is asked to pass expenditure at the rate of £25,000 a minute.

What about the promise given by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) that Parliament would meet in March, and would be given an opportunity to discuss a number of urgent matters? Yet the Government scuttled into recess, and delayed the meeting of Parliament as long as possible. Instead of summoning us on the 17th June, why did not the Government call us together several weeks earlier? To paraphrase an old saying, Ministers are legislating in haste and they will repent at leisure. The electors will resent their present action. If this discussion occupied another day, no payments would be held up. The Government has sufficient funds to meet all obligations up to the end of the month, and the payments to the invalid and old-age pensioners is not involved at all in connexion with this bill. The Government merely desires to stifle debate. Does the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) approve of this ? Surely other honorable members opposite resent the Government’s action. No doubt the Government hopes to cover up its sins of omission and commission.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I remind the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that the question before the Chair is the allotment of time for the consideration of this bill.

Mr FORDE:

– I have pointed out that the time proposed to be allotted’ is insufficient.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr THORBY:
Acting Minister for Defence · Calare · CP

.- It is all very well for the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) to say that the time available for debate is insufficient, but he was absent for many hours during the earlier part of the discussion.

Mr Forde:

– I was present until a quarter past five o’clock this morning, and I then arranged with another honorable member to take my place.

Mr THORBY:

– Three honorable members opposite practically monopolized seven hours of the debate. Reviewing the whole of the proceedings, we find that honorable members opposite have apparently overlooked the vitally important matters for the consideration of which they desire further time. I can recollect no speeches on important subjects. I heard long reports read by the Opposition when it could not find words from its own brains.

Mr Ward:

– What about Lum Roy?

Mr THORBY:

– That interjection comes from a brain that is absolutely devoid of power to discuss important matters in a fair manner. The honorable member for East Sydney can think only of his Surry Hills friends .

Mr Ward:

– The Minister has murderous blood in his veins.

Mr THORBY:

– If the honorable member has not got murderous blood in his veins, the only reason why he has been able to escape is that he has been lucky enough to get out of it.

Mr Ward:

Mr. Ward interjecting -

Mr SPEAKER:

– If the honorable member for East Sydney continues to interject I shall have to name him.

Mr Gander:

– I rise to a point of order. The Acting Minister for Defence said to the honorable member for East Sydney “ If you have not got murderous blood in your veins it is because you have been lucky enough to get out of it.”

Mr SPEAKER:

– Because of the noise I did not hear the remark referred to. I called the honorable member for East Sydney to order for his repeated interjections.

Mr THORBY:

– I never take notice of what that honorable member says. He is incapable of saying anything other than what is filthy in the extreme.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member is out of order in making that remark.

Mr Curtin:

– I rise to a point of order. Is it not unparliamentary to refer to an honorable member’s remarks as filthy?

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have already ruled so.

Mr THORBY:

-Honorable members opposite desire more time to discuss the bill.

Mr Curtin:

– I rose a moment ago and suggested that the expression “filthy” should be withdrawn.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I ruled that the Minister was out of order.

Mr Curtin:

– But he did not withdraw the remark.

Mr SPEAKER:

– No request for its withdrawal was made.

Mr THORBY:

– I withdraw it, but, having done so, I ask the Leader of the Opposition why he has asked for a withdrawal on my part, following on the statement by the honorable member for East Sydney that I have murderous blood in my veins.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I ask the Minister and all other honorable members to address themselves to the Chair and to avoid all personal references.

Mr THORBY:

- Mr. Speaker-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Minister’s time has expired.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

– A good deal of discussion has occurred among thinking people during the last few years as to whether popular government will continue in Australia, having regard to what has happened in otherparts of the world. The manner in which the Government has acted to-day in preventing honorable members from discussing this bill as it should be considered entirely robs this democratic House of free expression of opinion. Two or three days ago the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page) moved that government business should take precedence over private business. The Opposition protested on the ground that it would deprive private members of a right which they desire to enjoy. The carrying of the motion had the effect of preventing the discussion of private business except when the Estimates are under consideration. It is not for the Government to judge the value of the speeches made in this chamber. We should have every opportunity to ventilate matters of interest to the people in our electorates, which often mean more to them than the major issues raised in this Parliament. The Estimates for the PostmasterGeneral’s Department have yet to be considered. I am surprised that honorable members opposite, particularly those representing country districts, are prepared to allow the guillotine to be applied to the Estimates for one of the largest organizations controlled by this Government. It cannot be denied that there is room for comment, criticism and advice in regard to postal facilities, and one would naturally have expected that honorable members opposite representing country districts would not have neglected the opportunity to proffer to the Government their advice in order to ensure that postal services are made more perfect than they are to-day. Apparently, however, they are satisfied to rob their constituents of the opportunity to have their views expressed by their elected representatives in this House. During the life of this Government on no occasion has it failed to apply the guillotine to the Estimates at one stage or another.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The question before the Chair is the time allotted for the consideration of the bill; only that matter may be discussed.

Mr BEASLEY:

– I make that observation to show that the Government has apparently decided to follow that practice on every possible occasion.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! The honorable member is not in order in proceeding along those lines.

Mr BEASLEY:

– We are therefore faced with the necessity to defend our rights to ensure that no injustice is done to honorable members on this side of the House. We have several matters of importance to bring before the Government, but no opportunity will be given to us to do so, nor, apparently, will it be given when the budget is brought down later on. The Acting Prime Minister has no right to impute hypocrisy to honorable members on this side regarding the speeches delivered by them.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! I have ruled that that matter may not be discussed on this motion to fix times.

Mr BEASLEY:

– If I may be permitted tq say so, Mr. Speaker, that was mainly the substance of the speech made by the Minister.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! It is not in order for an honorable member to discuss in the House incidents which happened in committee.

Mr BEASLEY:

– Nevertheless he “ got it in “ and the speech I am referring to was not made in committee.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member forWest Sydney must not “ get anything else in “. He will be in order only in discussing the motion for the allotment of time.

Mr BEASLEY:

– Of course, the advantage no doubt goes against succeeding speakers who feel impelled to answer certain statements made.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The remarks of the honorable member are definitely out of order. The Chair has to see that the Standing Orders are observed even if honorable members do sometimes get in remarks that are irrelevant. If they are called to order, other honorable members are not entitled to make further reference to them.

Mr BEASLEY:

– My purpose, Mr. Speaker, is to defend my rights.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member must resume his seat, because his time has expired.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– The pseudo school-masterly lectures delivered by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) and the honorable member for “West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) might be a very good example of simulated indignation regarding the Government’s decision to hasten the passage of this measure, but I venture the opinion that it will cut no ice with anybody who has witnessed or who is in any way conversant with what has occurred in this chamber during the last 24 hours.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have already ruled that that matter cannot be discussed on the motion now before the Chair.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the Opposition refuses to be treated like dumb driven cattle. I venture the opinion that nobody here would ever suggest that the Opposition is dumb.

Opposition Members. -What has that to do with the motion?

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– The level of the intelligence displayed by the Opposition during this debate-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member is not discussing the allotment of time.

Motion (by Mr. Ward) put -

That the honorable member be not further heard. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.)

Ayes . . . . . . 23

Noes . . . . . . 36

Majority . . . . 13

Question so resolved in the negative.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The time allotted under the Standing Orders for this debate has expired.

Original question put -

The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G.. J. Bell. )

AYES: 36

NOES: 22

Majority . . . . 14

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

In Committee of Supply: (Consideration resumed.)

The schedule.

Department of Health.

Proposed vote, £20,880.

Mr CLARK:
Darling

.- I consider that the matterswhich have been stressed by previous speakers in regard to various aspects of national health cannot be too strongly impressed upon the Government, and in this connexion I desire to refer specifically to the subject of malnutrition in Australia. When the census was taken in June, 1933, it wasdisclosed that 965,000 dependent children under the age of sixteen years were born of parents who were in receipt of less than £3 a week. The health of the people should be one of the primary concerns of this national Government, and an improvement of the general standard, in order to make Australia an Al nation, can be effected only through an improvement of economic conditions. When dealing with the problem of nutrition, the League of Nations Mixed Committee reported that the greatest single cause of defective nutrition throughout the world at the present time was poverty. I regret that this Government, from that viewpoint, has not exerted sufficient effort to overcome the spectre of poverty in our community. Although the Minister for Health (Mr. Hughes) has directed the attention of the people to the existence of malnutrition in our midst, he has not done all that lies in his power to counteract the basic cause of the trouble. Malnutrition is rife, not only in Australia, but also in other parts of the world. For instance, Sir John Orr recently stated that, in his opinion, nearly one-half of the population of England was under nourished. The prevalence of malnutrition, 1 consider, is due to the fact that very many families do not enjoy a sufficiently large income to enable them to obtain proper nourishing foods. The Minister for Health advocated that Australian children should consume move milk, because, in this respect, the Commonwealth occupies a very backward place among the nations of the world. The comparative figures showing the per capita consumption of milk in various countries are as follows: -

Although Australia is a great primary producing nation, and there are many outward and visible signs of prosperity, its per capita consumption of milk is distressingly low. The Minister for Health has frequently referred to this fact, but I regret that no tangible result has apparentlyemerged from any of his propaganda. I deplore the fact that the Commonwealth Government has not given adequate consideration to the real welfare and the health of the nation. [Quorum formed.] In my opinion, the Government should adopt a national health scheme for the purpose of providing for the regular examination of the people, both young and old, from year to year. If such a scheme were adopted much of the disease and ailment which now stalk through our midst would be counteracted.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).For. the information of the committee I desire to state that, with the application of the guillotine, honorable members may discuss not only the Department of Health, but also the remaining votes in the schedule. It is only fair that T. should acquaint honorable members with their privileges in this regard in case they should desire to discuss subjects other than health.

Mr CLARK:

– The granting of assistance by the Commonwealth Government for the purpose of erecting large hospitals to accommodate greater numbers of sick people would not be the best method of serving the national welfare. The health of the general public can be better cared for by the prevention of disease than by the construction of larger hospitals for the purpose of curing the sick. Prevention is always better than cure. I hope that the Government will give consideration to the introduction of a comprehensive national health scheme. People possibly do not realize that for many years the households of tens of millions of European workers have enjoyed the privilege of free medical attention, and that a national health service has applied, since the 1880’s, to 40,000,000 people in Germany. A completely organized health scheme has also been functioning in Great Britain for 22 years, and national health services operate in many countries, including China and Japan. In view of the almost universal adoption of such beneficial schemes, I fail to understand why the Commonwealth Government has not taken definite steps to effect an improvement of the existing position in this connexion in Australia. At frequent intervals, delegations of Ministers have made extensive tours abroad for the purpose of studying various matters, but I regret that such an important subject as a national health scheme has been given insufficient consideration by them. During his absence overseas the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) has conceived the ghoulish idea of having transhipped to Australia the remains of the late Governor Phillip for re-interment in

Sydney. [Quorum formed.] The Government should also devote attention to the introduction of a national child endowment scheme under which the children of large families would receive additional food and clothing and general care. It is to the credit of New South Wales that it is the only State of the Commonwealth that has provided for child endowment. If the Minister for Health were fully alive to the necessity for safeguarding the health of the children, he would bring into operation some similar scheme of national endowment on a Commonwealth-wide basis, because the successful functioning of the scheme would materially assist the well-being of the rising generation. In many of his public utterances, the right honorable gentleman speaks of raising the health of the Australian people to the status of an Al nation, but if he is sincerely desirous of achieving this ambition he must give consideration to the adoption of a child endowment scheme. I regret that whereas a sum of £6,750 is provided in this schedule for “ animal health and nutrition “ the miserly sum of £200 has been ear-marked in this schedule for subsidies and expenses in connexion with “ maternity and infant hygiene “. Such a shameful anomaly is a clear indication that the attention of the Government is being regrettably directed along the wrong channels, because the adult population and the children are not receiving the consideration to which they are entitled, whilst far less important matters are enjoying generous treatment at the hands of the Government.

Mr James:

Mr. Chairman, I call attention to the state of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I remind the honorable member for Hunter that it is not right for him to call attention to the state of the committee, while at the same time he directs honorable members to leave the chamber.

Mr James:

- Mr. Chairman-

THE CHAIRMAN.- The honorable member for Darling (Mr. Clark) has exhausted his time.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

.- I desire to draw the attention of the Government to the need for a new general post office in Brisbane. This matter lias been the subject of discussion in Parliament for many years past. It was first brought before the notice of the Government by the honorable member for Lilley (Sir Donald Cameron), and more recently by the present honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. G. Lawson), by myself and by other honorable members. I take this opportunity to stress once more the special claim of Brisbane for a new general post office. The present building has served the needs of the community since before federation, when the population of Brisbane was about 30,000, whereas to-day it is over 300,000. It is impossible effecItively to carry on the work of the department under existing conditions. At peak periods it is impossible to get near the public counters. The facilities available are inadequate and most unsatisfactory. The Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs, and his officers, have done remarkably well under very difficult conditions. The office is hopelessly inadequate for the work, and a new. building is long overdue. I hope that there will be no further delay in the compilation of plans and specifications, and in arranging for a. conference between the PostmasterGeneral’s Department and the works branch of the Department of the Interior regarding details of construction. I trust that funds will be made available to enable an investigation to be made, and a report presented as soon as possible.

Mr Lazzarini:

– I rise to a point of order. The committee has not yet passed the appropriation for the Department of Health, and therefore it is out of order for the honorable member .to discuss items coming under the PostmasterGeneral’s Department.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Before the honorable member came into the chamber just now, the House decided to limit the time available for consideration of the remainder of the schedule, and in fairness to honorable members it was intimated - there being no objection - that honorable members might speak not only ou the Health Department which is directly under consideration, but also on any other of the departments yet to be considered.

Mr FRANCIS:

– I regret this further obstruction by honorable members opposite.

Mr Lazzarini:

– I object to the word “ obstruction,” and ask that it be withdrawn.

THE CHAIRMAN. - The remark is unparliamentary, and I ask the honorable member to withdraw it.

Mr FRANCIS:

– As the remark is unparliamentary, I withdraw it for that reason. [Quorum formed.] I regret that honorable members opposite are showing so much lack of interest in a proposal for the prosecution of such an important public Work as the construction of a new general post office at Brisbane. I urge the Ministry to lose no time in completing plans and specifications for this work. I hope that provision will be made in the Estimates for it so that before long the foundation stone of the new general post office may be laid.

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1936

– I am pleased to have so worthy a. supporter as the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) in my request to the Government for the provision of a new general post office in Brisbane. I desire to point out, however, that this is not merely a piece of electioneering propaganda on my part. For the last five and a half years I have consistently advocated the erection of a new building in Brisbane. In fact, the subject has become known to honorable members as my hardy annual. The present building was a magnificent structure when it was erected in 1872, but it is totally inadequate now for the work that has to be done. When it was erected 65 years ago, the population of Brisbane was approximately 22,000, and that of the whole of Queensland only 125,000, whereas the present population of Brisbane, which has to be served by the same post office, is about 300,000. When the building was first opened, 40 persons were employed in it; to-day, the number of employees is about 1,200. Therefore, even from the point of view of. accommodation for employees, it is imperative that a new building be provided. When the Estimates for . 1934-35 were being discussed in this Parliament I complained of the conditions existing in the post office in Brisbane, with particular reference to working conditions for employees, and the then Postmaster-General - now the Minister for Defence (Sir Archdale Parkhill) - assured me that a new parcels office would be commenced in December, 1935. I expressed my satisfaction at that assurance, and pointed out that the work, if undertaken, would not only provide much needed accommodation, but also give employment to many men just before the Christmas holidays. The Minister further stated that the new parcels office would be the first step towards the erection of a new general post office, but nothing further has been done since then. “When the Commonwealth Cabinet met in Brisbane in 1936, the Postmaster-General made a thorough inspection of the post office, and was evidently satisfied that a new building was needed, because the Prime Minister, on behalf of the Government, publicly announced that the Government had decided that the existing building was unsuitable, and that plans and estimates would be got out as quickly as possible for a new building. The people of Brisbane were naturally pleased with this information, and every daily paper in the city featured the Prime Minister’s statement. On the 17th June last I asked in this House what progress the Government was making with the undertaking, and I received the following reply: -

The Postmaster-General now advises me ti, at estimates of space requirements have been prepared and some consideration given to the nature of the building scheme. The question of making provision for the work on next year’s Estimates will receive consideration in connexion with the preparation of the budget.

The Government is definitely pledged to commence the construction of a new post office in Brisbane. I join with the honorable member for Moreton in the hope that the Government, when framing its Estimates for the year 1937-38, will make the necessary provision for tlie commencement of this particular building. I spoke on this matter during the discussion of the last Estimates. I then pointed out that it would not be necessary for the Government to make provision for the whole of the expenditure in one financial year. I am satisfied that if the Government intends to carry out the promise it made to the people of Brisbane - and it is in duty bound to do so - it should make some provision in next year’s Estimates for at least the commencement of this particular work. I sincerely trust that that will be done. I assure the Government that I speak for practically every person in Brisbane when I say that a new general post office is desired in order that it may be in keeping with the buildings that adjoin the present structure in Queen-street.

Sir Donald CAMERON:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– I desire to give the strongest possible support to the representations of the honorable members for Brisbane (Mr. George Lawson) and Moreton (Mr. Francis) in connexion with the erection of a new general post office in Brisbane. The necessity for this building is definite and urgent, and the work is long overdue. A new building not only is necessary for the convenience of the general public, but also is absolutely essential for the convenience and safety of the officers of the department, 1,240 of whom are located in the existing building.

The present building, which faces Queen-street, was opened on the 28th September, 1872 - years before I was born. The honorable member for Brisbane has reminded us of the numerous occasions upon which he has urged the Government to have the new building commenced and completed. I can go back to the days when it was my privilege to represent the division of Brisbane. About twelve years ago it was definitely decided by the Government of the day that a new building should be erected, and plans for it were drawn out.

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1936

– The plans for a new building were drawn out twenty years ago.

Sir Donald CAMERON:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– That would be before the period of my representation of the division. But even while it was my privilege to represent the electorate, plans were drawn out, and the people of Brisbane were definitely advised that the new building would be completed. Those of us who have been interested in the matter know that the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs of that day, in a desire - a very worthy one, no doubt - to save the Government from expenditure which he considered avoidable, said that he could suggest alterations to the existing building which would enable the department to carry on for a long time without the necessity for doing other than provide a new automatic telephone exchange. This advice was followed and the new exchange was erected. The original plan was for the building of that exchange, and then of a new parcels office in Elizabethstreet, the new general post office to be finally built on the existing site facing Queen-street; but that programme was never carried out. The honorable member for Brisbane has stated that last year, when the Cabinet met in Brisbane, the promise was most definitely made to the people of that city that a decision had been reached, and that the work would be undertaken at the earliest opportunity.

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1936

– Eleven months have since elapsed, yet nothing has been done.

Sir Donald CAMERON:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– I did not catch the terms of the reply which the honorable member received from the Postmaster-General, but I gathered that it was intended to include this work in the next Estimates.

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1936

– No, the reply was that consideration would be given to the matter.

Sir Donald CAMERON:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– Whatever the reply was, I sincerely trust that the honorable gentleman’s representations will prove fruitful. I am sure that all honorable members share that view with me. Any one who visits the very fine city of Brisbane must realize that it lags behind every other capital city as far as its general post office is concerned, even though the existing building is a beauti-ful example of architecture. Probably some of the buildings in Brisbane are the finest of their kind in Australia. I do not suppose that there is a finer building from the viewpoint of architectural beauty than the Customs House. But architectural beauty alone will not enable the people to conduct their legitimate business with great government departments.

As the honorable member for Brisbane has pointed out, the existing building was first opened in 1872, when the staff numbered 40, and the population of Brisbane 30,000. To-day the staff employed is 1,240, and the population of Brisbane 310,000. Almost immediately, it was found to be too small, and from what I have gathered considerable extensions had to be made to it in 1878. Again in 1881 the Queensland PostmasterGeneral of the day argued that it was impossible to carry on with the existing accommodation, and claimed that something should be done immediately to rectify the position. He suggested that a new building should be erected on another site, which is well known to honorable members who come from Queensland - the site on which stood the old Normal School.

A few years a.go the proposal for the erection of a new building was investigated by the Parliamentary Committee on Public Works, which most strongly recommended its adoption. There need be no further delay, except, of course, that which the Government might consider reasonable in connexion with the expenditure that will have to be provided. But, as the honorable member for Brisbane has pointed out, the expenditure would naturally be spread over a number of years. I give my strongest support to the plea that in the next Estimates provision be made for the establishment of this new general post office.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne Ports

– I wish to keep a promise that I made to some 300 non-official postmasters. This matter has been brought forward on several occasions in this chamber. The position is rapidly becoming worse. Recently, a man was arrested for misappropriating £200 of the money with which he was entrusted at a nonofficial post office in New South Wales, and the judge who tried him merely bound him over to be of good behaviour, saying that he was surprised and disgusted to find that the Commonwealth Government was employing persons under the conditions that existed in his case. The accused was a married man with two children. He had charge of large sums, and, becoming involved in financial difficulties because of the low wage of less than £3 a week that he received, was tempted to apply a portion to his own use. I quote the following newspaper report in connexion with the case: -

Sydney, Friday.- -Judge Neild said at the Singleton Quarter Sessions ‘ to-day that the salary paid to a postal employee by the Commonwealth Government has been far below a living wage, and to expect him not to misappropriate money had been asking too mud of human nature. Arthur John Hassett was charged with having taken £218 5s. Sd., the property of the Commonwealth Government. Counsel for Hassett said that his client, who was a 3’oung married man with two children, had been in’ charge of the post office at Gundy,, for which he had received £145 a year. Finding that he could not live on this amount, Hassett borrowed £100 from a friend, who pressed for repayment. Hassett stole £218 5s. 8d. In binding Hassett over in his own recognisance of £50 to be of good behaviour for three years, Judge Nield said : - “ I cannot understand how an employer, and particularly the Government, can expect a man to handle sums of money and refrain from misappropriating it when he is not paid sufficient on which to live.”

There are 300 or more non-official postmasters in Australia, all of whom are in country districts. They handle a good deal of money, and provide all the postal facilities - on a small scale, of course - which are provided at any post office in the. big capital cities. They have to live on the premises, or close to them, and are on duty practically day and night. They receive no promotion and are cut off from all social activities. [Quorum formed.’] The position is a very serious one, and I cannot understand why the PostmasterGeneral has not investigated it. The wages are surely low enough; but, in addition, no working conditions are provided. If a non-official postmaster wishes to take a holiday, he has to select another person to carry on the work in his absence, and accept whatever risks may thereby be involved. Should there be any deficiency in the accounts, he would have to make it good as well as pay the substitute his wages. I do not know how these men have carried on for so long without trouble arising. The Government ought to scrap the present system and have only official post offices in charge of men whose status would be fixed according to the size of the district in which they discharged their duties or the duties they have to perform. There is a clamant demand among the people of Australia for the reduction of postal rates. “What possibility is there of rates being reduced when the department refuses to straighten out matters of this sort, and withholds necessary services even in the cities and suburbs? I have applied for dozens of public telephone cabinets, as well as for two mail deliveries a day in suburbs on the waterfront not far from Melbourne,, but the department will not provide these facilities unless it is guaranteed certain revenue before they make a start. The public have the right to demand some reduction of rates, or better service out of the great profit made by this department, but, personally, I should first like to see additional services inaugurated, and better conditions provided for the employees of the department. If the department will not act in the one direction, it will have to act in the other. I ask the Minister to place before the Cabinet the views that I have expressed, in the hope that better conditions will be provided for non-official postmasters.

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

.- I have received a number of requests, particularly from women’s organizations in “Western Australia, that improved facilities be afforded to children living in remote country districts who are receiving instruction by correspondence. Under the existing arrangement with the Postal Department, the teachers, when- forwarding correspondence or returning students’ work, are not allowed to make any comment concerning the quality of the work done either to the scholars or to their parents. This matter has been taken up by the “Women’s Service Guild of “Western Australia, the Country Women’s Association, the Country Party Women’s Association and various other bodies. They are asking that the existing arrangements for teaching country children by correspondence be improved by permitting teachers, when returning the revised work, .to accompany it with comments for the guidance of the scholars. In our capital cities and the larger centres of population, all the latest facilities are available for the education of children, so it is reasonable to ask for improved arrangements to bc made in the interests of children who are taught by correspondence. If necessary, the Postmaster-General’s Department could be reimbursed with a small payment for the additional service rendered.

I also direct attention to the need for some concession in regard to telephone charges in country districts. Farmers in the north-eastern portion of the agri-cultural areas of Western Australia have been in the grip of a severe depression for the last five years, owing to the low prices for export products and a succession of severe droughts. As a result many primary producers are not in a position to pay their telephone accounts. I hope that the department will allow these charges to stand over until the farmers are in a better financial position. I know that the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs in Perth’ desires to assist them, but he is not able to do so unless instructed so to do by the Government. The granting of their request would not seriously inconvenience the department, and it would be a welcome measure of relief to the people concerned. A telephone service is one of the greatest boons that could be provided for people living in sparsely populated country districts, and I hope that the Government will favorably consider the request from these people for consideration. Automatic telephones are now operating in many country districts and, as they are not expensive to instal, I hope that the: Government will extend the system to other country centres, because it is equivalent to a continuously operated manual exchange, subscribers being able to use the telephone at any hour of the day or night. I hope that the Assistant Minister (Mr. Thorby) will bring this matter under the notice of the Postma ster-General.

Mr COLLINS:
Hume

.– Much has been said, in the course of this discussion, about the urgent need for. improving the health of the people. Something in this direction may, I suggest, be done by the Postal Department by providing improved living conditions for its employees to country post offices. Many country offices are quite inadequate for the volume of business transacted, and not infrequently the living quarters attached to them are hopelessly out-of-date. The Postal Department is by far the largest governmental activity, its turnover being approximately £14,000^000 per annum, and in a normal year it shows a huge profit. A revision of its operations is desirable, -in order to give to the people a more improved service at a lower cost. Some time ago I directed attention to the condition of the post office at Burrowa, and on one occasion I had the pleasure of accompanying the Postmaster-General and later the Minister assisting the Minister for Commerce on a visit to that town, and while both agreed that both the post office and residence were badly in need of attention, little or nothing has been done. Much unnecessary expense has been incurred in plastering country post offices with large gold lettering to inform passers-by that such and such a building is the post office of the town. As a rule no one has difficulty in locating a country post office, the expenditure so incurred might, with advantage, be devoted to projects for improving the living accommodation of officials in charge of country post offices. I hope that this matter will receive attention when the Estimates are being prepared. There is also need for further assistance being given to those in charge of unofficial post offices. If the Government does not consider the time ripe for a reduction of postal and telephone charges, some portion at least of the profits derived from the activities of the department should be set aside for improving the living conditions of the employees at the many country post offices.

Mr PRICE:
Boothby

.- On several occasions, I have urged a reduction of the charge for broadcast listeners’ licences and suggest that the present charge of 21s. a year be reduced to 15s. I have perused the balance-sheet of the Broadcasting Commission, and believe that it could successfully cater for the requirements of listeners at a rate much lower than the present charge for a broadcast listener’s licence. A reduction to 15s. would be fair, and would be a welcome concession to hundreds of thousands of listeners throughout the Commonwealth.

When the Northern Territory was transferred from South Australia to the Commonwealth, the State was given a definite undertaking that the Commonwealth would construct a railway from the then terminus at Oodnadatta to Pine Creek. This condition was embodied in the agreement. The Commonwealth has carried the railway line from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs in the south, and from Pine Creek to Birdum in the north; but there is still a gap of 580 miles between the termini. This should be bridged without further loss of time. The recent developments at Tennant Creek justify the belief that the construction of a railway through Central Australia will lead to the opening up of other important mineral fields. Certainly it will give some measure of security to settlers, as well as being an important link for defence purposes. I hope that the Government will shortly announce its intention to honour the agreement with South Australia by putting this important work in hand.

Mr GARDEN:
Cook

.- The need for an automatic telephone exchange at Mascot is one of the hardy annuals which I have brought to the notice of the Government from time to time. The Assistant Minister (Mr. Thorby) has stated that provision is to be made on the Estimates to erect a -new building for the purpose of making a change over from a manually operated to an automatic exchange. I hope that this item will be included in the works programme for this year.

In the early hours this morning the committee was discussing health problems in relation to the future development of the Commonwealth. This is a subject of vital concern to everybody who has at heart the welfare of the nation, and it is receiving much attention from governments in other countries. The Sydney Sun yesterday published the following significant statement - BRITAIN. A COUNTRY OP DYING TOWNS.

Children alive to-day may live to see Britain’s population decline by 9/10ths and may exist in a country of dying towns, empty buildings, and almost silent industry.

This is one of the startling conclusions emerging from a preliminary survey of the falling birthrate by the Population Investigation Committee in its first report.

The committee on the assumption that recent trends in birth and death rates will continue, gives these estimates of the future population of England and Wales: -

Some people may think that these figures are of no import to Australia. They are wrong. An examination of the trend of birth rates in Australia shows the same definite downward movement, the births per thousand being as follows: 1901, 27.16; 1921, 24.95; 1925, 22.86; 1930, 19.S6; 1935, 16.55. If this trend continues the Australian birthrate in 1945 will be twelve per thousand ; in 1935, it will be six per thousand, and in 1965 it will have disappeared altogether. These figures show that, so far from this problem being of no moment to a government, it is actually the most important that could receive attention. I therefore hope that when the budget is presented it will contain a pronouncement of positive Government policy, relating to health and nutrition which have such a definite bearing on birth-rate statistics.

Mr CHAIRMAN:

– The time allotted for the consideration of the remainder of the committee stage of the bill has expired.

Proposed, votes. - Department of Health, £20,880; Department of Commerce, £71,420; Miscellaneous Services, £104,710; War Services, £171,030; Commonwealth Railways, £81,700 ;’ Postmaster - General’s Department, £1,966,640; Territories of the Commonwealth, £102,200; Refunds of Revenue, £350,000; Advance to the Treasurer, £1,500,000- agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

THIRD Reading.

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) proposed -

That the bill bo now read a third time.

Mr MAHONEY:
Denison

.- I wish to ask the Government to consider making available to the Australian Broadcasting Commission part of the huge surplus in respect of fees paid by radio listeners for licences for the purpose of enabling it to carry out its building programme in the various States.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. J. Bell).The honorable member may only discuss the bill as it is reported from the committee.

Mr MAHONEY:

– The bill contains certain provisions for the PostmasterGeneral’s Department.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Is there any reference in it to the surplus mentioned by the honorable member?

Mr MAHONEY:

– There is not, but we know that the surplus exists.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member will not be in order in continuing his speech on this subject.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 631

HOUR OF MEETING

Motion (by Dr. Earle Page) agreed to-

That the House, at its rising adjourn until 8 p.m. this day.

page 631

TARIFF BOARDREPORTS

Mr WHITE:
UAP

– I lay on the table reports and recommendations of the Tariff Board on the following subjects : -

Articles for Games, Toys, Meccano Sets and Meccano Magazines

Blown Glass Blanks for use in manufacture of Cut Glassware.

Cast Iron Pipes and Cast Iron Fittings for Pipes

Edible Fats n.e.i. and Lard, also findings on cocoa butter and substitutes thereof.

Electrical Insulating Sheets of Asbestos and Cement or similar materials.

Incandescent Mantles

Internal Combustion Marine Engines

Magnesia, Magnesium Carbonate, Magnesium Chloride and other like preparations.

Malleable Iron Castings

Metal Washers n.e.i.

Boot Coverings in the piece. Floor Coverings, and similar materials, surfaced or unsurfaced, consisting of Felt, Textile, or Paper Base, impregnated or laminated with Bitumastic, Asphaltic, Tar or Pitch Emulsions or similar preparations; Damp-course and similar materials in sheets or rolls.

Tapestries of Wool or containing wool.

Tiles, viz.: - Flooring and Wallincluding Glazed, Ceramic, Mosaic, and Enamelled.

Weighing Machines, including Computing Weighing Machines; Weighbridges; Scales and Balances, n.e.i., including Computing Scales and Balances; Tanners’ Measuring Machines: Chemists’ Counter Scales; Spring Balances and Steel-yards; Weights, n.e.i., Combined Bagging, Weighing and Sewing Machines.

Wrought Iron and Malleable Cast Iron Fittings for Pipes, and Cast Iron Fittings for Pipes of less than 2 inches internal diameter.

page 631

ADJOURNMENT

Broom Millet - Payments for Life

Salvage : Wireless Broadcasting - Post Offices: New Lambton, South Brisbane - Federal Aidroads Agreement

Motion (by Dr. Earle Page) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

– I have been requested to bring under the notice of the Government a complaint by growers of broom millet in the Tumut district that towards the end of last year certain importers were given permission to obtain 130 tons of broom millet from Argentina. The local growers of broom millet were not consulted in this connexion and they feel that they have a justifiable grievance. I am informed that the importing interests in Sydney based their application for this permission on representations that the supply of locallygrown millet would this year be below requirements. They advised the Government that only 450 tons of locally-grown millet would be marketed, whereas about 800 tons would be required for manufacturing purposes. The Government, without consulting the growers, acted upon the representations of the importers, and 130 tons of broom millet are expected to arrive in Sydney about the 5th July. According to statements made to me, the object of the importers in seeking the lifting of the embargo is to force down the price of the locally-grown product. Broom millet has been fetching between £60 and £70 a ton on the local market, whereas the importers were able to obtain supplies in Argentina for £25 a ton. We have always understood that one of the reasons underlying the embargo was the fear of the introduction of borers in imported millet. It has beensuggested to me that this matter was dealt with by the Department of Health, but it is strange that that department should concern itself with the subject apart from considerations of quarantine and fumigation.

Dr Earle Page:

– I have this matter in hand.

Mr BEASLEY:

– It certainly seems to me that the Government has adopted an unusual course in this connexion. When the representations complained of were made by the importers, the clear duty of the Government was undoubtedly to consult the people who depend for their livelihood on the income they receive from the sale of the locally-grown millet. I hope that no delay will occur in furnishing me with complete information in regard to this unsatisfactory transaction, because there is now a surplus, and the the growers are very concerned.

The next subject to which I direct attention concerns the Department of Commerce. I have been asked by the general secretary of the Merchant Service Guild of Australasia, Captain W. G. Lawrence, to bring under the notice of the Government that the Australian law does not contain any provision for the payment of life salvage, although such a provision is included iu the practices of the British Parliament. If there be an omission of this description from the Australian legislation or custom, it should be rectified. This subject was brought under notice in connexion with representations that the Merchant Service Guild has made to the Government concerning the meritorious salvaging of life that occurred recently when the steamship Haiping foundered at sea. Representations were made to the Assistant Minister (Senator Brennan) on this subject but without satisfactory result. The honorable gentleman in his reply to the letter addressed to him referred to the salvaging crew’s right of action, but such right of action does not exist, apparently, unless property has been salved. There would, for example, be’ no right of action for life salvage against the owners of a wrecked vessel, although the Imperial Parliament recognizes such a right and makes special grants through Parliament to seamen’ who save life at sea. I understand that neither the master nor any member of the crew of the Mildura has requested that he be paid life salvage, but the guild considers that it is of great importance in the interests of those who earn their living at sea that every incentive, including pecuniary reward, should be offered to encourage those who risk their lives at sea in preventing the loss of others’ lives. 1 therefore solicit

I he interest and sympathy of the Government in this connexion. If reward may be paid for the salvaging of property, surely a strong case exists for rewards for the salvaging of life. In many instances seamen take great risks and often impair their health in exerting themselves to save the lives of their companions and other persons who are in danger at sea, and, as the Imperial Government provides rewards for such conduct, the Commonwealth Government should do likewise. I seek the favorable consideration of the Government to this request.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

– I have been in correspondence with the’ Postal Department for some time on the vexed question of radio interference. This nuisance is unfortunately increasing in Australia, and owners of wireless sets are being subjected to considerable annoyance, some of which at least could be allayed. I can see no reason why the. problem should not be tackled effectively at once. So far, nothing has been done by the Postal Department other than to send an officer to try to persuade offenders to install silencers or eliminators on the machines which cause interference. Should the offender fail to respond to such representations, no further action’ is taken because the department claims that it has no constitutional power to require electrical apparatus to be fitted with suppressors. I suggest that by cooperation between the Commonwealth and the States, such as that in connexion with the control of aviation, the difficulty could be overcome. A discussion of this problem by representatives of the States assembled at a Premiers Conference might result in a solution of the trouble being found. It is not correct, as is sometimes stated, that suppressors cannot be successfully fitted to electrical appliances which cause interference. About a fortnight ago, when in Launceston. I saw a demonstration of a vacuum cleaner which, when fitted with a suppressor, caused no interference at all with wireless reception, whereas, when the suppressor was taken out of it the machine caused continual disturbance and made the radio receiver of little use. That demonstration convinced me that this trouble can be easily and inexpensively overcome. In New Zealand, legislation has been enacted to overcome this difficulty, and, according to a press report, Great Britain proposes to legislate to provide that, in future, manufacturers of electrical apparatus -will be required to fit suppressors to all new equipment, and also that all imported appliances shall be similarly equipped. All such machines will be stamped with a special mark, so that when that legislation is in operation, there will be no excuse for any one buying a machine which will interfere with his neighbours’ wireless reception. Penalties will be provided to meet offences. Suppressors for domestic appliances cost from 5s. to £5, whilst those for heavy plants, such as trolley buses, tram cars, flashing signs and traffic signals; may cost as much as £20. I suggest that it is not fair for the Postal Department to collect licence fees from the users of broadcasting receiving sets and take no decisive action to protect them from interference. There are certain disturbances which the department cannot overcome; but, since it derives considerable revenue from these licences, it is in duty bound to implement legislation which will reduce justified complaints to a minimum. There is no reason why legislation should not be enacted to make it compulsory for all new electrical appliances manufactured in, or imported into, this country to be fitted with suppressors. Steps should also be taken to eliminate, as far as possible, interference by the older appliances already in use. Denmark has passed legislation which provides that all electrical appliances manufactured in, or exported from, that country, shall be equipped with suppressors. In this connexion, Australia lags far behind other countries. “We are living in an age in which radio plays an important part; a large proportion of’the people have broadcast receiving sets in their homes, and the number of licences is increasing almost daily. The department has a responsibility to the community in this matter and I hope that it will do something to ensure that listeners are safeguarded from, undue interference.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.- I support the remarks of the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) with regard to the importation of millet. Rep- resentations have been made to me by millet-growers in the lower Hunter district, particularly around Raymond Terrace, through their secretary, Mr. O’Brien, who has pointed out the danger of introducing borers in millet imported from Italy and Argentina. Notwithstanding the precautions taken by the Health Department to fumigate all imported millet, borers have come into Australia in this way. Australian growers claim to be able to supply all the millet required by manufacturers of brooms and other articles in which millet is used. Some years ago, I introduced to the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page) a deputation of millet-growers from Raymond Terrace who emphasized the harmful effects of a policy which permitted a continual infiltration of foreign-grown millet. Towards the end of last year, the Government conceded to manufacturers the right to import 130 tons of millet from Argentina. That action, which was taken without the Australian growers of millet being consulted, has resulted in a surplus of locally-produced millet. The combine which persuaded the Government to allow millet to be imported consists of four or five manufacturers in Sydney and one in Melbourne. They are not concerned with Australian producers who are endeavouring to make a living by growing millet and running the risk of loss from floods and other causes; they are concerned only with getting supplies at low prices. I understand that 130 tons of millet now on the way to Australia will be sold at about £25 a ton.

Mr White:

– There is no customs embargo on the importation of millet; importation is controlled under a quarantine regulation.

Mr JAMES:

– Not only is imported millet inferior to the Australian product, but also it is likely to introduce into Australia the millet-destroying borer. One would think that the Country party would be interested in protecting the Australian growers of millet.

Mr Nock:

– The Country party has been active on their behalf for months.

Mr JAMES:

– Long before the Country party took any action in this direction, members of the Labour party were active in the interests of Australian growers of millet. The Labour party has been charged with having disregarded the interests of the primary producers, but the Acting Prime Minister knows that there is no foundation for that accusation. The price of Australian millet is from £3 5 to £45 a ton now, but it has been from £60 to £70 a ton, and the manufacturers are using the Government for the purpose of importing cheap coolie-grown millet. The manufacturers are chiefly concerned about a reduction of the price of their raw material. The interests of the growers in the part of New South Wales from which I come would be safeguarded if they worked in conjunction with the co-operative society, of which I was formerly a director, which has always acted on behalf of the local growers in opposition to the importers of millet. The annual production in Australia is about 1,200 tons. The manufacturers represented to the Government that there would be a shortage, but we find now that there is a surplus of about 450 tons in New South Wales, and of approximately 800 tons throughout Australia.

On many occasions I have urged the Postmaster-General’s Department to provide a new post office building at New Lambton.. This town has a population of about 8,000, but the residents are still compelled to conduct their postal business in and old weatherboard prefederation office, which is a disgrace to the department. Representations in regard to the matter have been made to the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs in New South Wales. Deputations from the local governing body have been introduced to him by me and the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins). We are both interested in seeing that the residents are provided with the facilities to which they are entitled, New Lambton being a boundary town. The Deputy Director has admitted that, having regard to the population, a new post office should be provided, and he has recommended its construction. When last year’s Estimates were under consideration, I was given to understand that a new building would be erected. The Government would receive the thanks of the people directly concerned if, out of the large profits of the department, it provided a new office at New Lambton.

There is an unofficial post office at Belmont. The Deputy Director has been taken by me to that growing town, near which is one- of the biggest mines operated by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited. This mine gives employment to about 800 persons. Belmont is also a fishing and pleasure resort.

Mr Gander:

– What about Pelican Flat?

Mr JAMES:

– The residents of that locality are mostly unemployed, and they would have few complaints if the Government would make sufficient funds available to enable them to be kept at regular work.

I now propose to refer to the need for new telephonic facilities in my electorate.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr CURTIN:
Fremantle

.- I am compelled at this stage to deal with one or two matters which are not at present on the notice-paper, and which, if this Parliament is to do its work properly, should be considered. It is imperative that more time should be made available to consider them “before the end of the financial year.

The chief of the two measures which I have in mind is that which relates to the Federal Aid Roads Agreement. It will be recalled that towards the end of last year the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) brought down a bill to extend the present agreement by six months, terminating it on the 30th June, 1937, instead of the 31st December, 1936. This agreement is one of the most important instruments associating the Commonwealth and the States in public works throughout Australia.o It involves the taxing powers of this Parliament, and the use by the States of the portion of the field allocated to them. Over £10,000,000 has been expended on road construction and maintenance in the past four years, and approximately a little less than £25,000,000 has been spent by the States since agreements of- this kind were first made. Thus it is apparent that, as the agreement, as made in 1931, ends to-morrow, a review of. the new agreement, which I understand has been reached, would involve consideration of certain new phases in respect of the expenditure which this Parliament makes possible.

We all know that agreements of this kind make it extremely difficult for this Parliament to vary them after they have been reached. What I protest against is the stultification of the powers of this Parliament by the policy of the Government in bringing down a bill for the validation of the new agreement at this late stage of the financial year. Over six months ago, the Treasurer indicated that he would welcome suggestions by honorable members, and that their remarks would be taken into account when the new agreement was being evolved. Certain sections of the community are anxious to protest against particular features of the agreement. I do not espouse their cause, nor do I contemplate taking any action later that would imperil the continuity of the present arrangement. If the new agreement involves any variation of the expenditure by the States upon road construction, and provides for the construction of incidental works, it represents one of the most important opportunities for providing employment which the States have, and has an important bearing upon their developmental programmes. I do not know what the country will think of this Parliament if on the day preceding that on which an agreement in -regard to roads expires, an agreement which has really become a permanent part of the financial relationships between the Commonwealth and States, it is expected to adopt a new agreement. This is one of the rare type of agreements which enables the States to have made available to them a certain proportion of the indirect taxation imposed by this Parliament. ‘This recalls an historical fact that, for ten years, the States received a share of the indirect taxation collected by the Commonwealth. This type of agreement will give new life to a dead phase of the powers of this Parliament in relation to the rights of others. I can simply say that the action of the Government in submitting a new agreement at this juncture amounts to nothing short of ineptitude. The House, which has been sitting all day without asking Divine guidance is to commence a new sitting to-night by doing so, and it would appear to be utterly incongruous if at that sitting we have to debate this important measure.

Mr BAKER:
Griffith

.- In view of the fact that the Government prevented honorable members from speaking at length on certain important expenditure provided in the Supply Bill which has just been disposed of, I am impelled to delay the House in order to bring some urgent matters before the Government. Although the House has been sitting for only twelve days this session, some portion of which was taken up with unnecessary ceremonials, it is now proposed to go into recess for some weeks, thus further interfering with the rights and privileges of honorable members.

I again bring under the notice of the Government the urgent necessity to construct a suitable post office at South Brisbane, and I trust that it will give immediate attention to the matter. I heartily support the representatives of Queensland who have referred to the necessity to construct a new general post office in the city of Brisbane, but while not detracting from the importance of that undertaking, the erection of a new post office at South Brisbane is imperative. The two most important post offices in the city of Brisbane are those in North Brisbane, which is Brisbane proper, and South Brisbane. Twenty years ago South Brisbane had as a post office a good two-story building at the corner of Melbourne and Greystreets, which was taken over by Bayards Limited, and the post office was removed to temporary premises, where the business is still conducted. The building now occupied is in .Stanley-street, where there is one-way traffic, and there is not even a tram stop opposite the post office. The majority of the people visiting South Brisbane, wishing to reach a post office, travel by tram for a couple of miles past the Stanley-street building until they reach the Woolloongabba post office. The West End post office, at the other end, is a better structure than that at South Brisbane, and, in fact, the post offices in North, East and West Brisbane are all better than that in South Brisbane. The new bridge being erected across the Brisbane River from New

Farm to Kangaroo Point will soon prevent overseas and interstate shipping from . reaching beyond a point which is two miles from the South Brisbane post office. The Adelaide Steamship Company has already altered the berths of the Manoora and the Manunda to New Farm and Birt and Company are building new wharves at Hamilton. About three years ago, when the present Minister for Defence (Sir Archdale Parkhill) was PostmasterGeneral, he visited South Brisbane, and said that the only argument that could be used in support of the retention of the present building was that it was a convenience to those on ships berthed at the wharves. When the construction of the new bridge is completed in eighteen months or two years, vessels will not travel right up the river and, therefore, the retention of the post office on its present site is not justified on the only ground advanced for retaining it there. The main business centre of South Brisbane is in the vicinity of the proposed site and opposite the south coast and interstate railway terminus. The Commonwealth Bank is adjacent, making it very convenient for the transfer of money, and the four main business banks are also within a few hundred yards. The junction of Melbourne and Grey-streets is the busiest traffic centre in Brisbane, being the outlet for all traffic going to the city via Victoria and Grey-streets bridges. Land on which to erect a new building was purchased by the Commonwealth Government three years ago, showing that the present site is regarded as unsuitable. Had the present Minister for Defence retained the portfolio of Postmaster-General, a new post office would have been erected long ago; but, unfortunately, as soon as a Minister becomes acquainted with the duties of his department, he assumes control over another department. That interferes seriously with continuity of policy. The interest which would have to be paid on the cost of the new building would not be as much as the rent charged for the ramshackle structure which now serves as a post office. I do not think it would be possible t6 select a more unsuitable site for a post office than that now used.

The situation of the post office is so obscure that not only strangers but also the residents themselves of the district have been unable on occasions to locate it. One honorable member was engaged for a day and a half before he eventually found it and some honorable senators who were natives of Brisbane did not discover its whereabouts until three years after having been elected. Those honorable senators are willing to make statements to that effect in the Senate. Although I had heard of the existence of the South Brisbane post office, I had been the parliamentary representative of the district for two years before I discovered its location, and I took great pains in my efforts to find it. This ramshackle little building is so carefully concealed that no one would suspect that it is Commonwealth property. I ask the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral to take steps with a view to providing South Brisbane with a suitable post office, and I seize this opportunity, which is the first that has presented itself for six months, also to request the Acting Prime Minister (Dr. Earle Page) to give his most earnest attention to this matter, because in the past it has been only a waste of time to ask other Ministers to do so. On at least a dozen occasions in this House, I have referred to this mater and I warn the Acting Prime Minister that I shall continue to annoy the Government until it remedies the position. Apart from the urgency of granting to the district of South Brisbane the much-needed postal facilities, the Government will save itself a lot of trouble by placing sufficient money on the Estimates for the forthcoming financial year in order to enable a new post office to be erected upon the selected site.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Acting Prime Minister · Cowper · CP

in reply - I shall refer to the Postmaster-General the requests which have been made by the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Baker) and the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Barnard) and, insofar as they concern the Postal Department the representations which were made by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) in respect of the New Lambton post office.

The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) raised the matter of the provision of life salvage and I assure the honorable gentleman that I shall discuss the subject with the Navigation Department in view of his representations.

At least two honorable members referred to-day to the subject of the importation of millet, and I desire briefly to explain the position to the House. During last December, a very definite shortage of production in the millet crop of New South Wales and Victoria became evident. [Quorum formed.] In view of the fact that this matter was raised by honorable members of the Opposition, I imagined that any information in regard to it would have been of some interest to them, and I therefore took considerable trouble to secure the details in respect of the position in order that they could be made available to the House without delay. For the last ten years, the millet crop in New South Wales and Victoria has averaged 916 tons, but, in 1935-36, production decreased to 582 tons, and the estimated yield for 1936-37 was only 600 tons. Certain manufacturing interests, who were desirous of ensuring that they would be able to obtain sufficient supplies in order to permit them to proceed with the making of brooms, and keep their hands at work and orders filled, approached the Department of Agriculture of New South Wales for the purpose of ascertaining where it would be possible to secure future supplies. When the department found, upon inquiry, that on account of the dry season, which did not break until the end of December or early January, the position in New South Wales was much worse than in previous years, it made a request to the Commonwealth Government to permit the importation of 250 tons of millet from some country in which the corn-borer was not present. The Commonwealth Department of Health asked the Department of Agriculture of New South Wales to indicate any country in which the pest did not exist, and, in reply, it indicated that no cornborer had ever been found in Argentina. After an examination of the position by the Department of Commerce and the Department of Health, it was agreed by the Director-General of Health that 250 tons of millet might be introduced provided that the shipments complied with certain very definite quarantine restrictions. In the meantime, on account of the improved seasonal conditions, the prospects of an increased millet crop this year were brighter. As soon as that fact had been ascertained, and especially following upon representations by the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Collins), and the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. McEwen) in regard to the matter, the permit to authorize the importation of 250 tons of millet was reviewed, with the result that the manufacturers were allowed to import only some 130 tons of millet which they had irrevocably ordered. That is the position at the present time. Up to date, the shipment of millet has not arrived, but I assure honorable members that, before it is released to manufacturers, it will be subject to the most rigorous disinfection.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at6.10 p.m.

page 637

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answers to questions were circulated: -

H.M.A.S. Sydney : Cruise in Tasmanian Waters.

Migration

Mr Paterson:
CP

n.- On the 18th June, the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Martens) asked the following questions, upon notice -

  1. How many immigrants have been admitted into Australia since the 1st January last?.
  2. To what States were they admitted, and what number to each State?
  3. Of what nationality were the immigrants, giving the number from each country?

It is understood that the honorable member is desirous of ascertaining the respective numbers of migrants of British, Greek, Italian and Yugoslav nationalities admitted into Queensland and the Commonwealth during the present year. The latest available figures, showing permanent new arrivals for the first four months of the present year, are as follow : -

Tariff Board Reports

Mr Forde:

e asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. How many Tariff Board reports are being held by the Minister, and what are their subjects?
  2. When will they bo made available to honorable members?
Mr White:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

Forty-four Tariff Board reports which have been considered by the Government will be made available to honorable members during this week. There are a few other reports on hand which cannot be made available until they have been dealt with by the Government.

War Service Homes: Repossession

Mr Forde:

e asked the Minister in charge of War Service Homes, upon notice -

How many homes, built under the War Service Homes Act, have been repossessed by the War Service Homes Department since 1st

January, 1932, in each State, and what is the total number repossessed through out Australia ?

Mr Hunter:
Minister without portfolio assisting the Minister for Repatriation · MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · CP

– Separate records are not available in respect of homes built as distinct from homes provided under other classes of assistance defined by the War Service Homes Act. The total number of homes, possession of which has reverted to the War Service Homes Commission since the 1st January, 1932, is 3,784, which includes homes in respect of which purchasers either abandoned the properties or requested the Commission to release them from their obligations, or where the purchasers could have met their commitments but would not do so, thus placing upon the Commission the responsibility of recovering possession. The figures for each State are shown hereunder : -

Bounties

Mr Gregory:

y asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. What is the total amount of the bounties paid by the Commonwealth on iron and steel, including wire and wire netting?
  2. What is the total amount, of bounty paid on the production of sulphur?
  3. What is the total amount of bounties paid on fertilizers?
Mr White:
UAP

– The information is being obtained.

Canberra Housing

Mr Forde:

e asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice -

  1. How many people are on the waiting list for houses and flats at Canberra?
  2. How many (a) houses and (6) flats were built during 1935-36?
  3. How many (a) houses and (6) flats were built from 1st July, 1936, to 31st May, 1937 ?
  4. How many (a) houses and (b) flats are now under construction.
  5. What is the total building programme for the Federal Capital Territory for 1936-37, in (a) buildings, and (6) flats and houses?
Mr Paterson:
CP

– The information is being’ obtained and will be furnished as early as possible.

International LABOUR Conventions.

Mr Ward:

d asked the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs, upon notice -

  1. How many conventions have been agreed upon by the International Labour Organization since its inception?
  2. How many have been adopted by th( Commonwealth Government and given effect to ?
  3. How many conventions which were considered to be within, the power of the States alone to adopt have been referred to them for appropriate action?
  4. If any have been so referred, how many have been adopted by the States?
Mr Menzies:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

  1. Up to and including the Twenty-second Session of the International Labour Conference last year, 67. Four of these, however, revised and replaced earlier conventions.
  2. Ten.
  3. None of the conventions can be regarded as within the power of the States alone since they concern the Commonwealth at least in relation to its territories. Nearly all the conventions concern the States to a greater or less degree, and all such conventions have been referred to the States for appropriate action.
  4. Of the unratified conventions which have been referred to the States, ten may be regarded as fully or substantially covered by existing State legislation, while eleven require only minor legislative amendments for full compliance with their requirements. The remainder involve more important changes.

Alkali Industry at Port Adelaide.

Mr Price:

e asked the Minister representing the Minister- in Charge of Development, upon notice - .

  1. What development has taken place in connexion with the alkali industry works at Port Adelaide ?
  2. How many men are engaged in the preparation of these works?
  3. Will he ascertain when the works will be ready for production?
Dr Earle Page:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

  1. Imperial Chemical Industries Limited has rx> in pie ted about 90 per cent, of the work on the salt field required for the establishment of the alkali industry at Port Adelaide; work is proceeding on piling for the foundations of the factory and dredging and filling for the wharf are also taking place.
  2. The maximum number of men employed at one time was 600, but in view of the progress which has been made in connexion with the salt field, this number has now been reduced to 200.
  3. It is expected that the work will be completed towards the end of 1039 and that production will be commenced early in 1940. - It was originally anticipated that the production stage would be reached earlier, but unavoidable delays have occurred in connexion with the delivery of plant due to present abnormal demands.

Birthrate, Financial and Industrial Statistics

Mr Forde:

e asked the Acting Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. What was the birthrate in England, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, France and Germany in 1906, 1916, 1926 and 1936?
  2. What was the total national debt of the Commonwealth and the State governments in 1906, 1916, 1926 and 1936?
  3. What was the federal basic wage in 1906, 1916, 1926 and 1936?
  4. What was the per capita federal and State taxation in 1906, 1916, 1926 and 1936?
  5. What was the per capita production in (a) primary industries and (6) secondary industries in 1906, 1910, 1926 and 1936?
Mr Menzies:
UAP

– The information is being obtained and will be furnished as soon as possible.

Uniform Basic Wage

Mr McCall:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

l asked the AttorneyGeneral, upon notice -

Will the Government give consideration to the suggestion of the New South Wales Minister for Labour (Mr. Dunningham) that a tribunal consisting of a judge of the Commonwealth Arbitration Court and a Judge of each of the State Arbitration Courts should be constituted to determine a uniform basic wage and a standard working week for Australia?

Mr Menzies:
UAP

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows : -

The power of the Commonwealth to provide for the determination of such matters ‘as those referred to arises from its power to legislate with respect to “ conciliation and ‘ arbitration for the prevention and settlement of industrial disputes extending beyond the limits of any one State.” It follows that any special tribunal of the kind suggested set up, not to settle industrial disputes, but to determine a uniform basic wage and a standard working week for Australia, could make determinations which, so far as the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration is concerned, would have effect only as recommendations which that Court might or might not follow in settling any dispute before it in which the basic wage or the standard working week was in question.

Afforestation in Tasmania.

Mr Mahoney:

y asked the Acting Treasurer, upon notice -

In view of the strong representations made to the Commonwealth Government by the Minister in charge of the Forestry Department in Tasmania (Mr. Cosgrove), for a further grant for the development of forestry in Tasmania over a ten-year period, and in view of the report of the Commonwealth Grants Commission recommending that £50,000 be given to Tasmania for reafforestation, is it the intention of the Government to carry out this recommendation to assist the development of afforestation in Tasmania; if not, why not?

Mr Menzies:
UAP

– This matter will be considered in connexion with the” Commonwealth budget proposals for 1937-38. I would point out, however, that the Commonwealth Grants Commission stated in its report that the forestry proposal for Tasmania was “ offered as a suggestion “ and the commission further remarked that “they did not wish their notice of the subject to be considered in any way as a responsible opinion that assistance is due to Tasmania on this account “. The amount of£ 50,000 was not mentioned by the commission in this connexion.’ Tasmania is at present sharing in the grant for forestry which the Commonwealth is making to all States.

Exports of Mutton and Lamb

Mr McEwen:

n asked the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

  1. What quantities of mutton and lamb have been supplied to the United Kingdom, before and since the Ottawa agreement, by (a) Australia, (b) New Zealand, and (c) Argentine?
  2. What result has followed on the Government’s efforts to secure a statistical period for Australian supplies which will not be affected by early and late seasons?
Dr Earle Page:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

  1. Imports of mutton and lamb into the United Kingdom -

The percentage shares of Australia, New Zealand and Argentine in the year 1931-32, and the estimated position in 1937, are as follow: -

  1. Arrangementshavebeen madefor the period October to September to be regarded as the statistical year in future for arrivals of Australian mutton and lamb. This is of great advantage, as the fresh season’s lambs begin to arrive in the United Kingdom from Australia in the fourth quarter of the calendar year. The re-arrangement will relieve Australia in future of the embarrassment caused by early and late seasons.

Shipping Freights

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

n asked the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What reductions have been made in overseas freights on Australian primary products during the last five years?

Dr Earle Page:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

Reductions in freight rates, Australia to the United Kingdom, during the past five years, have been as follow: -

August, 1933 -

The freight rate on apples and pears was also reduced by 2d. per case for shipments during the month of June, and 3d. per case for shipments during the month of July.

October, 1934. - A reduction of 3½ per cent. was granted in the freight rates on butter and cheese, provided that the total quantity of these two commodities shipped in each year amounted to 60,000 tons.

December, 1934. - A rebate of 2d. per case was allowed to shippers of apples and pears provided that they fill all the space booked.

The value of the above reductions is approximately £500,000 per annum.

Reductions announced 11th June. 1937 -

These additional concessions amount approximately to £500,000 per annum.

Thus the total value of reductions during the past five years in freight rates on primary produce exports, covered by contracts arranged through the Australian Oversea Transport Association, amounts to approximately £1,000,000 per annum.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 28 June 1937, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1937/19370628_reps_14_153/>.