House of Representatives
27 October 1932

13th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker (Hon.G. H.Mackay) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 1649

PETITION

Rehabilitation of Primary Industries

Mr. PATERSON presented a petition from the Graziera Association of Victoria, the Chamber of Agriculture, the

Tariff Reform League, the’ Primary Producers Restoration League, the Victorian Wheat-growers Association, the Metropolitan Milk Producers Association, the Metropolitan Egg Producers Association, the Orchardists and Fruit Cool Stores Association of Victoria, and the United Country Party, requesting that action ha taken to rehabilitate the primary industries by (a) a reduction of the cost of production, (6) the temporary suspension of Arbitration Court awards, (c) further reduction of governmental expenditure, (d) reduction and simplification of taxation and abolition of federal land taxation, (e) downward revision of customs duties, and the abolition of all import prohibitions, (/) the necessary amendments of law to provide for the honorable discharge of obligations having particular regard to the application of reductions in the rates of interest, and (p) the immediate amendment of the Navigation Act to facilitate and cheapen transport.

Petition received.

page 1650

QUESTION

CRUDE FUEL OIL SUPPLIES

Mr BEASLEY:
WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the circular statement issued by Messrs. Ramsay and Treganowan Limited, that the. major oil companies have refused to supply dark crude fuel oil, and that as a result this firm has been forced to close down the Newport Oil Refinery which treats the products of the South Australian Oil Wells Company, thus forcing off the market Ramtre fuel oil, the firm’s product, will the Government take action to combat this restraint of trade?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Postmaster-General · WARRINGAH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– In common with other members I have received the circular to which the honorable member has referred.

Mr GREGORY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Can the Leader of the House reconcile the serious complaints of a private firm, that it is unable to obtain crude oil, with the fact that the Commonwealth Government has invested an enormous sum of money in a company formed for the importation and refining of crude oil in Australia?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:

– Frankly, I cannot explain this anomaly, but I shall refer the matter to the Prime Minister’s Department for investigation.

page 1650

QUESTION

NEWNES OIL LEASES

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Having regard to the report made to the Vice-President of the Executive Council by Mr. J. L. Rogers, an expert engaged by the Commonwealth to report upon the Newnes oil shale leases, that tests of that field show- a yield of from 100 to 140 gallons per ton of shale, what action does the Government propose to take to force the lessees to commence operations without delay and so relievo unemployment in the coalmining industry?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– The Vice-President of the Executive Council has been investigating this matter, and I understand that he has submitted a report to the Government. I shall ask that it be made available to honorable members as early as practicable.

page 1650

QUESTION

TOBACCO CROP

Mr THOMPSON:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Assistant Minister for Trade and Customs received any report from the officers of his department regarding the progress of the purchases of the current season’s tobacco crop ? If so, will he place this information before the House as soon as possible ? Also, will he ascertain from the manufacturers when they are likely to complete their purchases? I am advised that in some districts only 10 per cent, of the crop has been purchased, that the buyers have dis. appeared, and that the growers’ have no knowledge of when the balance -of their crop will b.e disposed of, although the new season’s crop is now being planted.

Mr GUY:
Assistant Minister for Trade and Customs · BASS, TASMANIA · UAP

– The Department of Trade and Customs receives periodical reports regarding the purchases. The manufacturers undertook to buy 7,000,000 lb. of the current season’s crop of tobacco leaf, and the latest advices show that over 6,000,000 lb. has been purchased already. I shall, however, communicate with the manufacturers, and endeavour to get for the honorable member the further information he desires.

page 1650

QUESTION

INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS ACT

Mr NAIRN:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Will the Acting Leader of the House issue instructions for the consolidation of the invalid and old-age pensions’ law, including the amendments recently made by the Financial Emergency Act?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– I shall refer’ the honorable member’s request to the Attorney-General, and I do not’ anticipate that any difficulty will be experienced in acceding it.

page 1651

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– About two months ago I asked for a duly audited statement of the accounts of the1 stores connected with the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway. I was promised that the information would be supplied as soon as the audit had been completed. Will the- Acting Leader of the House indicate when I may expect to receive the information?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– Apparently the matter has been overlooked. I shall have further inquiries made regarding it.

page 1651

QUESTION

DUTY ON SEPARATOR POWER DRIVES

Mr PATERSON:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA

– Will the Minister give me a reply to the question contained in the following telegram which I have received : -

Is there any prospect of finality being reached regarding removal of duty on separator power drives? Customs demanding payment of duty on shipments landed during post twelve months.

Mr GUY:
UAP

– I am pleased to be able to inform the honorable member that yesterday that matter was settled satisfactorily.

page 1651

QUESTION

RIFLE RANGE AT WILLIAMSTOWN

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

– Is it correct- and I hope it is - that the Defence Department has set aside a sum of money for the repair and extension of the rifle range at Williamstown, Victoria; and if so, will the Minister do his best to push on the work in the interests of the local unemployed ?

Mr FRANCIS:
Minister in charge of War Service Homes · MORETON, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– The proposal referred to is under consideration by the department, and it is hoped that £9,000 will be provided for the work from funds made available by the Unemployment Council. It is proposed to erect additional targets, to replace thirty others which are in a state of disrepair, and to alter the alignment of the targets to ensure greater safety at the range. So soon as the- money is made available, which I believe will be almost immediately, the work will be pushed on’ with the utmost despatch, with a view torelieving unemployment, and making the rifle range available for service.

page 1651

QUESTION

MILITARY TRAINEE’S DEATH

Mr ROSEVEAR:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– A week ago I drew the attention of the Assistant Minister for Defence to the sudden death of a trainee from food poisoning immediately after his return from a military training camp, and the Assistant Minister undertook to obtain a report from the department as to the possibility of food at the camp being affected, and also a list of the food supplied to the camp. Has that report come to hand, and, if not, when is it expected to be available?

Mr FRANCIS:
UAP

– The report has just come to hand, but, as I have not had time to examine it, I shall reply to the honorable member’s question to-morrow.

page 1651

RELIEF WORKS IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Rates of Pay

Mr MAKIN:

– I have received the following telegram from Adelaide : -

Farm labourers to be paid 25s. per week, Government paying 15s. and farmers paying 10s.

No doubt these rates of pay apply to a State scheme for the relief of unemployment; but I should like to know if the payment of 15s. by the Government, referred to in the telegram, is being drawn from the amount made available by the Commonwealth Government for unemployment relief works? If so, will the Minister approach the Minister for Industry in South Australia with a view to ensuring that those who are employed in rural industries shall at least receive the basic wage ruling in that State?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– I do not know whether the rates of pay referred to in the telegram apply to moneys which have been provided by the Commonwealth Government under the unemployment relief seheme; but I understand that these moneys were contributed to the States without conditions, it being left to the States to arrange the industrial conditions under which works should be carried out under the scheme. Nevertheless, I shall make inquiries in the direction suggested by the honorable member.

page 1652

QUESTION

BANANAS AND CANNED PINEAPPLES

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

– Numerous public meetings have been held by the fruitgrowers associations of Queensland at which resolutions have been passed protesting against the Government’s proposal under the Ottawa agreement to permit the importation of black-grown bananas. “Will the Minister take these protests into consideration, and also the interference of the Ottawa agreement with our trade in canned pineapples? When may a statement be expected of the Government’s intentions respecting these two products?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– The protests to which the honorable member has referred will receive the utmost consideration of the Government. I have no doubt that’ a reply will be communicated to him as soon as the Premiers Conference is over.

page 1652

QUESTION

PENSION OFFICIALS

Mr GANDER:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the announcement in the Commonwealth Gazette this morning, that eleven additional appointments are being made to the Pensions Branch at a minimum cost of £3,530 per annum, does the Minister anticipate that the administration of the recent financial emergency legislation will involve additional expenditure, and if so, will the salaries of these additional public servants be paid out of the money which will be saved by the reduction in invalid and old-age pensions?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– The Gazette notice refers to the additional assistance which, on the discussion on the Treasury Estimates, I forecast would take place. No money will be taken from the pensioners for the provision of this additional assistance. The salaries of these officers will be paid, of course, from the Consolidated Revenue.

page 1652

QUESTION

WIRELESS RELAY STATION IN NORTHERN NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr THOMPSON:

– Is any action being taken by the Postmaster-General’s Department to bring to a head the proposal to establish a relay station in Northern New South Wales, or is the whole matter in abeyance? Can the Minister indicate when we are likely to reach some finality on the subject?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
UAP

– This matter has been in abeyance for some time, but I promise the honorable member that I shall make immediate inquiry with a view to obtaining a decision, or some definite information for him.

SUPPLY (Formal).

Crimes Act.

Question - That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair, and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply - proposed.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- I wish to bring under the notice of the House, a protest which I have been asked to make on behalf of organizations associated with the Labour movement at Port Adelaide. There is a tendency on the part of the Commonwealth Government to use its power under the Crimes Act to victimize those who differ from it politically even to the extent of deporting them. Under the provisions of this act’, the Government has, within recent months, taken certain action such as should not be tolerated in an enlightened democracy. The pages of history unfortunately reveal many instances of despotism of this kind. Hundreds of different beliefs are preached which do not appeal to me, but that does not justify their suppression so long as they do not violate the laws of decency. Persons charged with misdemeanours under the Crimes Act are not given any form of trial ; they are not even entitled to have their cases heard by a court of summary jurisdiction. They are at the mercy of the Government of the day, and particularly of its Attorney-General. Persons who express views contrary to those held by the Government in office may, under this law, be dealt with in a manner quite foreign to our enlightened people. We are getting back to the conditions of the early part of the last century when the tyrannical provisions of the Crimes Act are invoked to deal with persons who have committed what are really civil offences. The Crimes Act should not be used in proceedings in connexion with political offences. It is my duty to point out how . ‘harshly this law operates. Future governments may not hold the views of the present Government; and honorable members who support the present Government would feel aggrieved if a government with a different outlook from their own deprived them of their right of free speech, and under “the provisions of the Crimes Act, deported them without any form of trial whatever.

Mr Maxwell:

– Can the honorable member cite specific cases of harsh treatment?

Mr MAKIN:

– Any deportation for a political offence is wrong, more particularly if the person so dealt with has not been adjudged guilty by a competent court; but no person should be deported merely at the whim of a Minister, or even of a government, whose views, no matter how irresponsible or unorthodox they may be deemed, differ from his own. The value of those views will be properly adjudged by the people. Political offenders should be dealt with according to a civil, not a criminal, code. There is, I am afraid, a tendency to be ruthless in the condemnation of persons preaching new social doctrines. This is most intolerant and unjust.

Mr Maxwell:

– That is scarcely an answer to my question.

Mr MAKIN:

– I am not here to plead on behalf of any one individual; my protest is against the application of the provisions of the Crimes’ Act to purely civil offences. We are not justified in regarding as criminals those who differ from us politically; yet they may be so dealt with to-day. Under this legislation a person who expresses militant political views may be treated as harshly as if he

Were engaged in the white slave traffic, or in the illicit drug trade, or were guilty of smuggling or counterfeiting. That is manifestly wrong; it savours of the conditions in England when men who held decided views in opposition to those of the Government of the day were dealt with cruel harshness, and, in some cases, were deported to Australia. Some of the men so dealt with were of noble character; their only offence was that they held different views from those of the Government in power. In this twentieth century, a supposedly enlightened age, we should not be afraid of any exposition in regard to the science of government. If there be sedition or treason, let the guilty one be charged; but a person charged with any offence should at least be given a trial; no man should be punished merely because of his political beliefs. Even in the heart of the Empire, persons holding the most extreme views are allowed freedom of speech ; and we in Australia should not tolerate legislation which makes possible the deportation of a person merely because he expresses views contrary to those held by the government of the day.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Archdale Parkhill) adjourned.

page 1653

QUESTION

ESTIMATES 1932-33

General

In Committee of Supply: Consideration resumed from the 27th October (vide page 1647).

Department of Trade and Customs

Proposed vote, £470,100.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- I desire to know from the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Guy) whether the statement that was made in the House on the 14th October by the Minister (Mr. Gullett), to the effect that he had issued an instruction to the Tariff Board not to take primage duty and exchange into account in determining the amount of protection to be granted to Australian industries, may be regarded as an indication that in future the Tariff Board will receive instructions from the Minister as to how it shall carry out its investigations.

Mr Gabb:

– When I asked that question the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) denied that a new policy had been adopted with regard to the board.

Mr FORDE:

– The Minister for Trade and Customs, in reply to a question asked in the House, stated -

Iti recommending a protective duty, it is not the usual practice of the Tariff Board to take into consideration primage and exchange, but it has done so in isolated cases. During this week 1 instructed the board that in future it should not do so.

Personally, I am of opinion that primage and exchange should not be taken into consideration by the board; and that on such matters the board should always use its discretion in carrying out its investigations. When I was Minister I refrained from giving instruction to the board as to how its findings should be arrived at, or what factors it should take into consideration in making its recommendations. I am raising this matter at the present stage in order to ascertain the policy that the Government intends to adopt with regard to tho board. Under legislation now proposed, this body is to assume a new role. Its importance is to be increased out of all proportion to the original intention of the Parliament, when Senator Greene, as Minister for Trade and Customs, introduced the Tariff Board Bill in 1921. In that year he laid it down definitely that the board was to be an advisory body, appointed to carry out investigations and report to the Minister, the whole of the responsibility regarding tariff decisions resting upon the Minister and the Government, and, ultimately, upon the Parliament. Under legislation recently introduced into this Parliament - I cannot, at this juncture, discuss the details of the United Kingdom and Australia Trade Agreement Bill - the Tariff Board is to be placed in a position of unprecedented importance. An effort is being made to tie the hands of future governments for the period of five years. The board is to be placed, in reality, above the Parliament. It is necessary, therefore, that the committee should scrutinize closely the proposed vote for the Tariff Board, and obtain an assurance from the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs as to whether, in view of the onerous duties that are to be transferred from the Government to the hoard, it is intended that this body shall be reconstituted. If so, is it not considered advisable that a search should be made for men of the highest qualifications? I can see grave danger of an effort being made by the Government to give instructions to the board. The Minister himself, within the last fortnight, admitted that he had issued definite instructions along certain lines. Whether we agree with the instructions then given or not is not the point now at issue ; we must keep in mind the principle that is involved. The intention of Senator Greene, when the board was established, was that it should be an absolutely independent tribunal. Speaking on the Tariff Board Bill on the 11th May, 1921, he said-

On the whole, I believe that an independent board which is not under ministerial control will be found the best, the ultimate decision, of course, resting with the House.

It was clearly intended that the board should not be under ministerial control; yet the present Minister for Trade and Customs has admitted that he has issued definite instructions to the board as to what matters it shall take into considera- tion in arriving at its decisions. Is that not Ministerial direction? The question whether the board, as at present constituted, should be abolished and another body of higher qualifications set up, must be given serious consideration by the present Government, or by some future Ministry, for I can see that an effort is being made to place the board above the representatives of the people. This body was created by the Parliament, whose responsibilities in the matter of tariff decisions should not be handed over to an outside body. When the Tariff Board Bill was under consideration in 1921, a senator on the Government side remarked -

In my humble opinion, the greatest danger that at present exists is the delegation of powers to extraneous boards.

Consideration was given at that time to the cost that the constitution of the board would involve, and honorable members were then told that the expenses would be about £1,000 per annum ; but we have seen the cost of this tribunal increase very considerably. I do not contend that the country could do without such, a body as the Tariff Board. While I was Minister for Trade and Customs, I had not an opportunity to reconstitutethe board, because the members had been appointed for a certain number of years, and I would not be a party to the repudiation of a contract entered into by a previous Government The time is approaching, however, when the subject of the re-constitution of the board must be carefully considered. The present Government, which holds the same fiscal opinion as the Government which appointed the Tariff Board, renewed the appointment of members of the board with one exception. One member was dismissed or, at any rate, he was not re-appointed, but whether this was because he did not hold the same views as the Government on fiscal matters I do not know. At any rate, for no very good reason, his appointment was terminated, and inquiries were set afoot for a suitable successor. Eventually a gentleman who was once an assistant railways commissioner in New South Wales was appointed to the board. Perhaps his fiscal opinions are more acceptable to the Government than those of the nian whom he has replaced. There is evidence in thu recently introduced Tariff Board reports’ of the opinions held by the Government, in regard to protection.

Because of the far-reaching powers with which the Tariff Board is to be entrusted, we should scrutinize carefully any instructions issued by the Minister to the board, whether officially, as from the Minister to the chairman, or less officially to individual members. The other day the Minister admitted that certain instructions had been issued to the board, but there may have been others of which the committee is not yet aware. Perhaps the board has been advised that any revision of duties must be in a downward direction; that it must do everything possible to break down the tariff wall. If one instruction has been issued to a board, which, we were told, was an independent body, is it not reasonable to assume that others may also have been issued? We learned of the one instruction merely by chance, as the result of a question directly addressed to the Minister in the House.

One of the greatest protectionist Ministers who ever held office in a Commonwealth Government was the late Honorable H. E. Pratten. Speaking on the Tariff Board Bill Mr. Pratten said-

If this bill passes its second reading I shall, on every occasion in this measure, and in the

Customs Tariff Bill also, require from the Minister in charge an explicit assurance that there shall be no abrogation of parliamentary authority, directly or indirectly.

In another part of his speech Mr. Pratten stated -

As a representative - of the people in this Parliament I am not prepared to sanction any abrogation of ministerial responsibility by removing any power to a board which is not responsible to Parliament.

The late Mr. Pratten held very strong views on this subject, and believed that no outside authority should be given powers greater than those of Parliament. He definitely refused to accept the recommendations of the board willy-nilly, regarding that body as acting in an advisory capacity only.

Mr Fenton:

– Everybody accepts that proposition.

Mr FORDE:

– Everybody accepted it once, but it is now proposed to tie the hands of Parliament for five years by an undertaking not to increase duties, except upon the recommendation .of an outside authority acting under instructions from the Government in respect of one matter, and, perhaps, in respect of others as well. Australia has adopted a policy of protection, and the representatives of the people in this Parliament, no matter to what party they belong, will not, I believe, stand idly by while our protective policy is whittled away at the instance of an authority specially created for the purpose by a Government which has turned its back on the accepted fiscal policy of the country.

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

.- It might be a good thing for Australia if Parliament vested in some outside authority power to prevent a Minister for Customs from taking advantage of the act to table one tariff schedule after another, increasing inordinately taxation on the people, and allowing those schedules to operate year after year, without receiving the approval of Parliament. As for the intimation given by the Government to the Tariff Board, if such intimation was given, it was of so reasonable a nature that no one should- object to it. It is only proper that the board, when framing recommendations, should leave out of its calculations the existing rate of exchange, which might vary from day to day. Although standing at 25 per cent, now, it might, within a few weeks’ time, be reduced to 5 per cent., or even increase to 40 per cent. I am convinced that the board, even without any instruction, would not have been influenced by the exchange rate. The primage duties which were imposed for revenue purposes, are of a purely temporary nature, and might be removed at any moment without the Tariff Board being consulted.

Mr Beasley:

– The honorable member admits that the Tariff Board is subject to governmental direction?

Mr GREGORY:

– I do not. The powers of the board are set out in the Tariff Board Act. Its duty is to make recommendations to the Government regarding what it considers to be fair protective duties for our industries. The surtaxes, amounting to as much as 50 per cent., were imposed by the Scullin Government, and some of them are still in operation. Is it suggested that the board should take these into consideration when framing its” recommendations? If it did, it would probably come to the conclusion that industry is already sufficiently protected without any customs duty, and that if the people got down lo work there is no reason why industry should not flourish.

The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Forde) eulogized Senator Greene for the act which he had placed on the statute-book. The effect of that measure was to create a virtual star chamber. It gave to the board power to take evidence in private, and to accept statements not made on oath.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Bell:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

– The honorable member may not discuss an act of Parliament when that act is not under consideration by the committee.

Mr GREGORY:

– The whole tenor of the speech of the honorable member for Capricornia was in the same direction.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member for Capricornia criticized the administration.

Mr GREGORY:

– At any rate, the provision which I have been criticizing is not now on the statute-book. I desire to prevail upon the Minister to see that tho provisions of the present act are enforced. The act specifically provides that action may be taken if it is shown on the report of the Tariff Board that firms are acting in restraint of trade. On two occasions, to my knowledge, grave charges respecting restraint of trade by certain firms have been brought forward; yet the Government, intentionally, I believe, allowed the matter to lapse, and declined to institute a proper inquiry. The Tariff board should be in a position to report to the Government of the day without any sense of political domination. It should be entirely free from all political control. I have the highest respect for the present chairman of the board, and, in fact, for every chairman that it has had ; but the act provides that the chairman must be an officer of the Customs Department. He is, therefore, dependent upon the Minister of the day for any improvement of his position. This is not right. The board should be composed of three sound business men, and be absolutely free from all departmental influences. I think the act should be amended to enable the board to make its inquiries without being in any way subject to ministerial direction.

Mr Fenton:

– The Chairman is one of the freest members of the board.

Mr GREGORY:

– I have no complaint to make against the chairman, but the fact remains that the Minister for Customs could, if he so desired, call the chairman back into the department at any time. I do not suggest that that is likely to be done ; but extraordinary things have been done in the Customs Department. “We know very well that the Minister has the power to lift duties one day and to reimpose them the next. He can permit one person to receive goods without payment of duty while the very next day another person may have to pay duty. This leads to suspicion. Certain questionable things have been done in the department at different times, though they may have been blunders; but there should be no room for suspicion. These Estimates reveal the tremendous growth of this department. An army of inspectors has been built up. We know very well that when a motor car, for example, is imported it is almost pulled to pieces in order that the exact rate of duty may be levied on the different parts of it. We know very well that magnetoes are subject to one rate of duty and other parts to other rates. The examination to which imports are subjected necessarily adds considerably to the cost of them, and does very little if anything to assist industry. The objectof the Government should be to reduce costs. We know very well that goods are examined in the country of origin and also in Australia when they arrive here, but this intensive examination is neither effective nor economical.

I ask the Government to inform me whether its intention is to comply with the provision of the Constitution which states that there shall be one session of Parliament in each year. If that provision and the spirit of the Customs Act are to be observed, it will be necessary for Parliament to complete its discussion of the tariff schedules before the end of the year. Is it the intention of the Government that this shall be done?

Mr PROWSE:
Forrest
Mr Martens:

– Another Country party member !

The CHAIRMAN:

– If the honorable member’s interjection is intended as criticism, I explain that the procedure of the Chair is to call honorable members alternately from the right and the left irrespective of the party to which they may belong. The honorable member for Swan had the call from the right, and the honorable member for Forrest has now the call from the left.

Mr PROWSE:

– The proposed vote for the Trade and Customs Department is nearly £500,000 which is a substantial sum to extract from the pockets of the taxpayers to make possible the indirect taxation of them to the extent of about £30,000,000 a year. When the Tariff Board was appointed, honorable members, who looked upon the appointment of it with some anxiety, were assured that it would take into consideration, not only the secondary, but also the primary industries of Australia, and hold the balance equitably between them. But unfortunately 99.75 per cent. of the time of the board has been occupied in the consideration of secondary industries. On the 25th October I asked the Minister for Trade and Customs the following question, upon notice : -

Will he request the Tariff Board to visit certain rural centres in the Commonwealth to take evidence on the spot from the primary producer as to the extra cost imposed on primary production through the operation of the customs tariff, and to report thereon? ‘

His reply was encouraging but evasive. He said -

The possibility of framing a reference to the board which would elucidate useful information in the direction desired will be considered.

A very simple reference could be submitted. The board, I remind honorable members, was intended to be impartial, and neither protectionist nor freetrade. We were told that it would examine every aspect of the questions submitted to it. To the credit of the board I wish to say that in its annual reports it has frequently referred to the danger of bolstering up secondary industries to such an extent that the development of the great primary industries would be hampered. I suggest that the Government should request the Tariff Board to make time to visit such districts as the Riverina, the Wimmera, and similar areas in the other States for the purpose of taking evidence at first hand from the men on the land. Very few farmers can afford to incur the expense of going to Sydney, Melbourne or any other capital city to give evidence before the board. The primary industries do not make the profits that are made by secondary industries, nor are they carried on in the cities. Therefore, let Mahomet go to the mountain and investigate with a view to determining whether the primary industries can contribute any further, or even as much as in the past, to the maintenance of our secondary industries. There is nothing unreasonable in that suggestion. The board should decide whether it is detrimental to the whole of Australia to bolster up the city industries at the expense of the all-important primary industries, especially those which export their products.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! It would appear that the honorable member is embarking upon a discussion of the tariff, which cannot be permitted.

Mr PROWSE:

– I am speaking to this item, which provides £8,969 for the maintenance of the Tariff Board for the present financial year. It was claimed when the board was appointed, that it would hold the scales of justice evenly. As one of the representatives of the primary industries, I contend that, to justify this expenditure, the board should examine both sides of the subject exhaustively. I hope that when the Minister replies, he will indicate that, as a result of serious consideration, he intends to make a recommendation to the Government that it shall instruct the board to make the inquiry that I suggest. I should then be satisfied for this committee to act on the recommendations submitted by that impartial tribunal. The board has done excellent work, and has submitted splendid annual reports to Parliament, but, unfortunately, none of its warnings or recommendations has been heeded.

Mr CASEY:
Corio

– I desire to continue the discussion on the Tariff Board and its organization. In common with many other honorable members on this side of the chamber, I have read many of the reports submitted by that body, and have been much impressed by its unbiased and businesslike attitude to its difficult task. I ask honorable members to try to clear their minds of prejudice in this matter, and to compare their opportunities with those possessed by the board for determining reasonably whether a tariff item should or should not be subjected to a high rate of duty. I am confident that an honorable member who makes such a comparison, will agree that the Tariff Board has far greater facilities for arriving at the truth.

I am not one of those who hold that any particular divine inspiration is breathed into a man when he enters the doors of this chamber ; he is still a human being, with all the limitations and frailties of humanity. High as is my regard for the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde). I beg leave to doubt whether even his assumption with regard to the proper height of any tariff duty should be accepted in preference to a rate recommended by the Tariff Board. If one accepts the simple faith of the Opposition that no tariff can be too high, one can understand the contemptuous impatience of honorable members opposite at the painstaking and laborious methods adopted by the Tariff Board to arrive at the recommendations that it submits to Parliament. In such a case, why should we split hairs upon the subject?

Why does not the Opposition recommend an overall tariff of 500 per cent, on everything except, perhaps, pearl buttons and tobacco, on which, a duty of 1,000 per cent, would be necessary to provide real and uncompromising prohibition?

I wonder at times whether even certain responsible members of the Opposition ever read the reports of the Tariff Board, because repeatedly we hear elaborated in this chamber, arguments in respect of certain items which the Tariff Board has, after exhaustive inquiries, definitely set aside. I am reminded thereby of the attitude of the old Puritan, who said that the works of the Scottish poet, Robert Burns, were of an immoral character, and for that reason he had not read them. However, no good purpose can be served by trying to get behind the minds of honorable members opposite in this connexion. Those on this side of the chamber support the Government, and the Government has clearly shown that it proposes to retain the Tariff Board for the unbiased and detailed investigation of tariff items.

If any criticism can be levelled against the Tariff Board, it is possibly that its investigations lack completeness. That criticism is easily explained by the smallness of the board’s personnel, and the extent to which it is overworked. That emerges clearly from the board’s last annual report. But the disability is one that can be easily remedied. I am of opinion, as. the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) himself says, that, particularly since this Parliament has become aware of the terms of the Ottawa agreement, under which the Tariff Board is to be given a chance of doing the job for which it was created-

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! The honorable member will not be in order in anticipating a discussion on the Ottawa agreement.

Mr CASEY:

– I shall not mention the Ottawa agreement again. In view of the increased responsibility of the Tariff Board, the constitution of that body might well be reviewed. The time has come when the Tariff Board should be strengthened in several ways, and I take this opportunity to mention certain ideas that have occurred to me on the subject. In the first place, I suggest that the membership of the hoard should be increased from four to six, or even eight members, who would work in groups of either three or four. Whenever the members of one of the groups were not unanimous in arriving at a recommendation, or when items were submitted for reconsideration - and that will not be unusual in the future - the matter could “ be determined by the full board, by majority decision. I suggest that the board should work in two groups, so that the tariff schedule could be covered more expeditiously; there would not then be an accumulation of work, with industrial interests pushing and shoving for as long as six to nine months, as at present, to have their requests considered. With two groups of the board working as I suggest, the tariff schedule could be covered in its entirety once , every two or three years. To meet the changing conditions of modern times, that is essential. The time has come, too, when there should be added to the staff of the Tariff Board, not to its membership, an economist who, behind the scenes, would conduct independent investigations, and make the results available to the board. Without wishing to appear too radical, I also suggest the establishment of a prices board; in the beginning, possibly as an adjunct to the Tariff Board. Those who read the reports of the Tariff Board must appreciate the difficulty experienced by its members in taking into account the prices of commodities, which, under the act, they are definitely obliged to consider. In a country so large as Australia, prices vary tremendously, and, in my opinion, are given only cursory consideration by the board, simply because no other course is possible. A prices board would be. of tremendous assistance to the Tariff Board in the conduct of its investigations. It might even submit a separate halfyearly or annual report to this Parliament, if for no other reason than that the consumers might, thereby be afforded some protection against unfair exploitation. Although I have no knowledge of the subject, I have no doubt that the Government is considering the question of reforming the

Tariff Board in some directions. It is for that reason that I respectfully submit these few suggestions, which I believe are worthy of consideration. I do not, as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition alleged, argue that the Tariff Board should have the last word in these matters; but I have ever in mind a remark once made in another connexion, that experts should be “on tap, but not on top”; it has particular application to the Tariff Board. Unquestionably, it is necessary, in such an important matter as the tariff, which affects the lives of the whole people, that there should be some outside investigational and advisory body that is not subject to political pressure. We have, in the Tariff Board, such a body, and we should raise its status, and place it in an unassailable position in the minds of the Australian community.

A perusal of some of the Tariff Board’s reports gives one the definite impression, in some cases almost the conviction, that, in tendering evidence, certain manufacturers display such enthusiasm to submit their case in the best light possible that they make statements that are subsequently proved to be untrue. The act contains penal clauses which should no longer be allowed to remain a dead letter.

I wish to make a short reference to the subject of statistics. Normally, statistics are considered dull and lifeless; but they are becoming more and moreimportant, in that legislation and government action are being based to an ever greater extent on the figures relating to the work of the Department of Trade and Customs, collated by the Statisticians Department. Those who have endeavoured to co-relate the imports statistics with production statistics will appreciate what a difficult task it is. The three factors that operate are, the tariff schedule itself, which consists of about 400 items; the import classification in the Trade Bulletin, which refers to 1,400 items, and is derived from and is comparable with the tariff schedule; and our domestic production statistics, which are roughly in line with the British and world classification of production, but have no relation whatever to the other two factors. The numerous reports of the Tariff Board indicates clearly the difficulties that it experiences in ascertaining with any exactness the volume or value of Australian production. Under existing circumstances, it is only in certain cases that an industry is able to state what its figures are. In the three factors that I have mentioned, the gap clearly is between the production statistics and the tariff schedule. Any alteration that is made must leave untouched the classification of production statistics, which are based on British and world classification, and an alteration would put us out of step with the rest of the world. Therefore, if reform is be effected it has to be reform of tho tariff schedule. This, I admit, is not a novel suggestion. ‘ It has been made before, but the answer that has been given by the Commonwealth Statistician has always been that pace cannot be kept with the alterations and the subdivisions in the tariff schedule. I believe, however, that we may now consider that the schedule is more or less crystallized, and that alterations in the future are likely to be confined to further subdivision of existing items. I realize that the step that I suggest is not an easy one to take, and that it may prove to be costly; but if not made now, it will become more difficult as time goes on. It is a measure of reform that, in my opinion, ought to be considered.

Mr GABB:
Angas

– I take this opportunity to discuss the action of the Ministry in instructing the Tariff Board that, in the consideration of its recommendations, it should not take into account the protective incidence of primage and exchange. I move -

That tho amount he reduced by £1.

I wish the amendment, if accepted, to be an intimation to the Government that this committee desires that instructions be not given to the Tariff Board re taking or not taking into consideration the protective incidence of exchange and primage duty when making its recommendations.

On the 14th of October last, the Minister for Trade and Customs, in answer to a question in this chamber, said, “ This week, I instructed the board that in future, it should not do so” - that it should not consider these factors. Not satisfied, I asked the Prime Minister a question on the 18th of October, and his reply was that “ No such definite instruction has been given to the Tariff Board.” “When the last Government was in power, I resented the making of contradictory or misleading statements by Ministers. 1 will not have that sort of thing “ put over me “ by any Government. Only the other day, the Minister for Health (Mr. Marr) made a misleading statement with reference to the work done by the Commonwealth Bank. There should not be this uncertainty. The people should know whether this Parliament approves of the Government’s action in giving instructions to the Tariff Board, or whether that body should be entirely free to consider every proposal submitted to it, and make its recommendations untrammelled by political interference. One Minister has informed us that instructions have been given to the Tariff Board to take a certain course in considering tariff items, and later the Leader of the Government stated definitely that no instructions had been given to the board. The position should be clarified. I have not submitted my amendment with a view to embarrassing the Government. My one desire is to have this important principle of administration as between the Cabinet and the Tariff Board settled definitely.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne Ports

– I wish to direct attention to a rather delicate portion of the duties carried out by customs officials in connexion with the censorship of books. From representations that have been made to me I gather that there is a good deal of discontent among book distributors and book lovers generally concerning this matter. While it may be an easy matter to determine whether a book is immoral or otherwise, I should say it would be difficult for the average customs official to say whether a publication was revolutionary or seditious in its intent in the sense that if read widely by the people it would tend to undermine society. Actually such a book may be dealing merely with the ordinary changes that - are taking place in the economic development of society, and, therefore, should be in the hands of the people. I am not for one moment criticizing the department, but I know there is much discontent in the community at the manner in which the censorship of books is being carried out. Some booksellers deal almost exclusively in this class of literature. Probably 75 per cent, of their business is in books relating to modern economic thought, the production of which in all countries has largely increased during the last few years. Because of the rapid changes that are taking place in political philosophy in all countries, a considerable number of men and women in Australia, as elsewhere, are continually searching for the latest literature on the subject, and their complaint is that the department is preventing the distribution in this country of modern books, dealing with economic and industrial questions, which should be available to them. My own view is that it is dangerous to limit the knowledge of the people; dangerous to prevent information from being obtained as to what other people are doing and thinking. Books which are obviously indecent or immoral should, of course, be prohibited. No one would advocate the admission of literature of that type. For a number of years, I had the privilege of sitting on the Council of Education in Victoria, and I know that this question, among others, was often discussed. The view taken was that, owing to the rapid changes which were taking place in society, the intellectual “ pap “ to which the people had been accustomed no longer serves its purpose, and that they were entitled to get knowledge concerning the newest thought on economic and industrial problems. People who know about the happenings in other countries, whether or not they approve of them, are better fitted to meet a crisis. In scores of books that are published, there may be frequent references to revolutionary, and other movements affecting the social order, and although the books themselves may not advocate revolutionary and violent policies, the ordinary official of the department might deem it his duty to prohibit their introduction into this country. If there were an appeal board to which decisions concerning such publications could be submitted, a great deal of useful literature, which at present is excluded, might be allowed to circulate in this country. It is not fair to ask the ordinary customs officer, who has been trained to do other things, to censor books dealing with modern social problems, and give him the right to say what is, or what is not, subversive of the existing social order.

Mr Fenton:

– There are always authorities to whom the department can refer such matters.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the department’s activities; I am only raising this question so that the Minister may give it consideration, and, if necessary, help the department in censoring this kind of literature. This matter is of great importance to the people. We should jealously guard freedom of thought and private judgment in everything, if we can do that without harming anybody else. Therefore, we should be particularly careful concerning the censorship of literature, which may affect so vitally the educational side of our life. It is wrong to leave decisions in this matter even to the ordinary police magistrate. While he might be able to say whether or not a postcard is indecent, or whether certain passages in a book condemned the publication on the ground of immorality, he could not be expected to give a satisfactory judgment about books dealing with modern economic thought. I hope that the Minister will consult with his officers, and see if it is not possible to help the department in this matter with a ‘view to the introduction of books which ought to be available to our people. Book-sellers who distribute publications of this class, are asking why they are prohibited. Through the post, I have obtained books which I know are held up by the Customs Department.” This is wrong. It ought to be impossbile for anybody in this country to obtain books if the customs authorities have decided against their introduction.

Mr Maxwell:

– Can the honorable member mention some specific books which he has obtained?

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I receive regular press correspondence from Berlin, dealing with the International Movement, and in Russian literature. I have also obtained the Russian Year-Booh which,

I understand, is not procurable through the ordinary channels, ,as well as a number of economic works which some people consider should not .be allowed to circulate in this country. Even Kilpatrick’s War, What For?, published ten or twenty years ago, nas been censored. I cannot, offhand, give the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Maxwell) a list of the books which I have obtained, not in an illegal manner, but through the post, and parcels of posted books are sometimes held up by the censor. I have no complaints to make concerning the officers of the department.

Mr Maxwell:

– Does the honorable member contend that some books should not ‘be ‘admitted?

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I can quite imagine that there are some which should be prohibited from entering the Commonwealth. I read a book which was temporarily held up by the department, and which I would not have admitted had I been the censor, but which is now on sale. I have not, however, that divine inspiration of which the honorable member for Corio (Mr. Casey) spoke, neither has the Minister, who is the last court of appeal in connexion with the prohibition of the importation of literature. It would be difficult to find a person to undertake the censorship of books to the satisfaction of every one. The Government should appoint a committee of two or three persons, which should be the deciding factor, rather than allow the Minister, who may have excellent qualifications in other respects, to determine what shall and what shall not be admitted. I have raised this matter so that the Minister and the officers of the department may consider the desirability of establishing such a court of appeal, and thus, obviate the danger of prohibiting the importation of publications which may be of great benefit to the Australian people.

Mr PATERSON:
Gippsland

.- The honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) is of the opinion that the Tariff Board should take into consideration exchange and primage duties.

Mr Gabb:

– I suggested that the Tariff Board should be left free.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson) is not entitled to discuss the rate of exchange and primage duties as they affect the incidence of customs duties, on the Estimates.

Mr PATERSON:

– I understand that the honorable member for Angas moved his .amendment because he differed from the policy of the Government as indicated by the Minister in a reply given to a question asked a week or two ago.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I understood that the honorable member for Angas moved his amendment because he objected to the Minister giving instructions to the Tariff Board. That is relevant to the administration of the department; but the. honorable member for Gippsland is not entitled to discuss the exchange rate and primage duties on this item.

Mr PATERSON:

– I only wish to make my position clear. I submit that exchange and primage duties should be taken into consideration in determining customs duties, but not necessarily by the Tariff Board. These matters should be dealt with by amending the Customs Act, and not by the Tariff Board. A suitable amendment of the Customs Act would enable a deduction to be made from the rate of duty in the schedule in accordance with the rate of exchange which may be in force on a particular day.

The CHAIRMAN:

– An amendment of the Tariff Board Act cannot he discussed at this juncture.

Mr PATERSON:

– In those circumstances, I hope that at an early date the members of the Country party will be able to indicate exactly where they stand on this matter.

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

– I understand that the honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) has moved that the item be reduced by fi, which is the formal method of directing the attention of the Government to some particular phase of its administration. In this instance, the honorable member desires to indicate to the Government that the committee does not wish any instructions to be given to the Tariff Board rc taking, or not taking, into consideration the protective incidence of exchange and primage duty when making its recommendations.

Mr Gabb:

– In other words, that the Tariff Board be left free.

Mr SCULLIN:

– Yes. I presume that the amendment covers more than the specific reference to exchange and primage duty, and that it is the desire of the honorable member to obtain an expression of opinion from the committee as to whether any instruction at all should be given to the Tariff Board.

Mr Gabb:

– My amendment is limited to those two points.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I would not so limit it; but even in its present form I do not see why the committee should object to it. That the Tariff Board is free to collect evidence and make reports emphasizes the fact that this Parliament should be the final and only judge of what the tariff duties shall be, and what shall be taken into account in determining such duties. Section 15 of the act under which the Tariff Board was appointed reads -

The Minister shall refer to the board for inquiry and report the following matters.

These are then set out in a number of paragraphs. There is nothing in that section empowering the Tariff Board even to recommend. Reference to recommendation is made in sub-section 3 of section 15 which deals with the specific subject of complaints referred to in paragraph h of sub-section 1 which reads -

Any complaint that a manufacturer is taking undue advantage of the protection afforded him by the Tariff Board.

Under that section the board is asked to inquire and recommend. The board has not the power to recommend new or increased or reduced duties, although it has been doing so for years. Recently the right honorable the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) stated in Sydney that the Tariff Board should be as free as is the High Court; but the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Gullett) said in this chamber a few days ago that he had issued instructions to the Tariff Board not to consider the exchange and primage duties in calculating the protective incidence of the tariff. If the position rests there, it would suit those who require higher protective duties; but if instructions can be given in one direction they can also be given in another. The board could be instructed to reduce duties. The Government has entered into an agreement at Ottawa which is tantamount to instruct ing the Tariff Board to reduce duties ; but I shall have more to say on that at the proper time. The principle which the committee is asked to affirm is important. It is asked to determine whether the Tariff Board is to make an unbiased examination and present facts to Parliament. I say most emphatically that the Tariff Board cannot do other, and any attempt to instruct it to reduce or to increase duties is a violation of the law and an infringement of the powers and rights of the board. I shall support the amendment unless I receive a definite assurance from the Minister that the Tariff Board is quite free in matters of this kind. I entirely disagree with the suggestion so frequently made by the Government that the recommendations of the Tariff Board should be the basis upon which our tariff is framed. That is wrong. The Tariff Board was established to inform the mind of Parliament - to be an independent and impartial tribunal which, like a royal commission, would take evidence and present a report to Parliament. If ministerial instructions may intervene between Parliament and the board, we might as well abolish that body, for it will become merely an appurtenance of the ministry of the day. There may be something to be said for abolishing the board and depending upon the officials of the department, but the board exists, and whilst I shall never consent to its usurping the powers of Parliament, or admit that its recommendations must be the final word, I agree that it can be useful only if we are satisfied of its impartiality. The board is set up to inquire and report. True, all its reports have included recommendations, but the propriety of such recommendations has never previously been questioned, because we have always held that the reports were only for the guidance of honorable members. If that principle is departed from, the board will become tainted with partiality; and its recommendations will be suspected of having been coloured by instructions from the Government.

Two things have amazed me in the attitude of the present Government to the board. The first was the declaration that the Government would willynilly follow its recommendations.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– That is a misrepresentation; the Government never said that.

Mr Maxwell:

– What the Government said was that the recommendations of the board should be followed unless there were good reasons for not following them.

Mr SCULLIN:

– Of course they should be followed unless there are good reasons to the contrary, but the Government must have good reasons for adopting any recommendation. I do not quarrel with the Government’s declaration that it will take no action to vary customs duties without reference to the board, but I draw the attention of honorable members to that clause in the Ottawa agreement which provides that the Commonwealth may not increase any duties or impose new ones without a recommendation from the board. We are told that that provision merely carries out the election pledge of the Prime Minister. It is making the Government and Parliament slaves to the Tariff Board.

Mr Fenton:

– And means lawmaking outside Australia for the Australian people.

Mr SCULLIN:

– That is so. Perhaps I am not quite correct in saying that the Government bound itself to follow willynilly the advice of the board, but its declared policy is that it shall take no action to impose new duties on goods from the United Kingdom without a recommendation of the Tariff Board.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I ask the honorable member not to discuss the Ottawa agreement or the bill relating to it which appears on the notice-paper.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I am merely pointing out the effect of one provision of the agreement which the Government says is in accordance with the policy announced by the Prime Minister during the general election campaign. The second amazing fact is that, having made that declaration, the Government states that it has issued an instruction to the Tariff Board not to take into account exchange and primage when calculating the protective duties to be imposed. Although that instruction suits my fiscal faith, I cannot admit the right of the Government to dictate to the board; if I concede the right of the Government to give a direction which will increase the amount of protection to Australian industries, I must logically be prepared to admit the right of the Government to instruct the board to reduce duties. These are matters to be decided by Parliament, which, having incurred the cost of investigations by the board, is entitled to demand an independent and impartial report, in respect of which no instruction has been given by the Government. I understand that to be the intention of the amendment. The honorable member for Angas may desire the duties to be higher or lower, but I am concerned for the protection of Australian industries, and I do not want the Tariff Board’s reports for the guidance of this Parliament to be coloured by instructions from any Government or Minister.

Mr.GREGORY (Swan) [4.17].- The carrying of the amendment would suit my fiscal views, because the board would interpret it as an instruction from Parliament to take exchange into consideration. We may expect the exchange to decrease as the position of the country improves, and then the customs duties will be less injurious than they are at present. The Tariff Board Act provides that the Minister shall refer to the board any proposed new duties or reduction or increase of duties, and shall not take action in respect of any of these matters until he has received a report from that body. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) and the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton) might tell the committee to what extent they were restrained by those definite provisions of . the act. If the Tariff Board were to take notice of exchange, with every variation in the rate, the amount of protection granted would change correspondingly. Does the honorable member for Maribyrnong desire that as the exchange rate rises or falls the protective duties shall be altered.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member may not discuss whether exchange should or should not be taken into consideration by the board. The purpose of the amendment is to convey from this committee to the Government a direction that it shall not give instructions to the Tariff Board; that is a matter of administration that may properly be debated on these Estimates.

Mr GREGORY:

– We all know the object of the amendment; I am pointing out what the effect of carrying it would be.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I ruled earlier that the subject of exchange is not related to the amendment. Whatever the intention of the mover may bc, it is not part of the amendment, which is merely to reduce a proposed amount by fi.

Mr GREGORY:

– Then the Minister may not tell the committee whether instructions have been given to the board or not?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The giving of instructions to the board may be discussed as a relevant matter of administration.

Mr GREGORY:

– In view of the limitation imposed by that ruling, I shall not attempt to discuss the matter further.

Mr PATERSON:
Gippsland

– Nobody is more interested than I am in the subject referred to by the honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) in moving his amendment, but I cannot support him because I believe that to deal with the exchange problem in this way is unsound. There must be a definite understanding between the Government and the Tariff Board regarding the basis upon which recommendations are to be made.

Mr Scullin:

– That must be laid down by the act.

Mr PATERSON:

– If no instructions are given by the Government, a clear understanding may be lacking. Reports may be made on one of three bases. One report may disregard both exchange and primage; a second report may take into account primage; and a third report only exchange. The Government must know exactly on what factors a recommendation of the board is based. Therefore, it would not be improper for the Government to instruct the board to found its report on such a basis that the purpose and effect of its recommendation would be clear to Parliament. The board might make a recommendation in which primage was taken into account. Many of us are desirous that primage duties shall be removed as soon as possible. If a number of duties recommended by the board were based on the existence of primage, that would be a definite obstacle to the removal of primage, or if it were removed customs duties based upon it would have to be increased. I hope an early opportunity will be presented for me to explain my definite views on this matter. Although I am probably largely in agreement with the views of the honorable member for Angas as regards the protective incidence of exchange, I am so convinced that the method proposed by the honorable member for Angas to give effect to what is in his mind is* wrong, that I must oppose the amendment.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

. The honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson) based hi3 case on the statement that it is quite a proper thing for the Government to direct the Tariff Board as to the basis upon which duties shall be determined, and the honorable member enumerated such things as primage and exchange which he considered should be taken into consideration by the board when assessing the amount of protection to be given to Australian industries. If it is right for the Government “to instruct the board to take those factors into account, it is equally logical to instruct the board to take into account the need for the relief of unemployment. That might be laid down as a basis by instruction.

Mr Paterson:

– That has no analogy with what I am suggesting.

Mr BEASLEY:

– If it is logical to lay down a basis of one kind, it is equally logical to apply the same principle in other directions when it affects the economic life of this country. The proper course is for the Tariff Board to act in accordance with the legislation under which it functions, and if anything is wrong with the present system, the act should be amended so as to increase the scope of the board in regard to its determinations. If it is a sound principle for the Government to issue any instructions at all to the Tariff Board, then that body, when framing its reports, should take into consideration the fact that we’ on this side of this chamber believe that this country should be self-contained 89 far as possible, and that every protection should be given to industry with a view :to the absorption, pf the (Unemployed.

Mr FENTON:
Maribymong

– I take it that it is usual for the ;Government to instruct .the Tariff Board to make inquiries into particular industries. “If we stipulate the conditions under which the reports are to be made, we shall tread on exceptionally dangerous ground. If the board, in framing its reports, has to take into consideration the effect of exchange, primage, surcharges, and embargoes, I know, when a report is issued, with what respect to treat it. When the Tariff Board is framing a report relating to a certain industry, it should not take those factors into consideration,. what is at the back .of the mind pf the honorable .member f or Angas (Mr.Gabb) is that primage and ^exchange and other factors should be taken into consideration by $he Tariff Board when framing its report. .As il .am opposed to that, I shall vote against the .amendment.

Mr GUY:
Assistant Minister · Bass · UAP

-It is rather gratifying to hear the favorable comments of honorable members respecting the Tariff Board. I believe that it is an efficient and painstaking ‘body, and one of the best boards that we have ever had. The discussion this afternoon seems ‘to have centred round the word “instruction”, alleged to have been .uttered by the Minister for T=rade and Customs (Mr. Gullett).

Mr Gabb:

– He used that word.

Mr GUY:

– ‘That may be so; hut, in any case, it was an unfortunate remark, and conveyed more .than was actually intended. The aboard was virtually informed that the .taking of primage ‘and exchange into account in connexion with its inquiries into certain industries led to an anomalous position, inasmuch as the greatest proportion of the tariff was baaed upon reports of the board made when exchange was normal and primage non-existent. As exchange is a variable factor, the Government considers that if should not be taken into account by Che board in determining rates and duties, otherwise an amendment of the tariff schedule would be necessary with every variation pf exchange. I was npt in the chamber when the Minister for Trade and Customs made the statement to which honorable members have referred this [afternoon. ;I do :not .know what was in Ms mind ..and I suggest to honorable members -that we w;ait .until the details of the Ottawa agreement are being discussed., when the Minister will make a £u,11 explanation. I say definitely that the Tariff Board is to be left free and unfettered. I repeat the declaration made by the Prime .Minister, a few days ago, that the board in respect of i$s operations will be as free as the High Court. Tb.e definite .and unqualified policy pf the Government .is .that it will issue no instructions to the Tariff Board. I hope that that declaration is satisfactory to honorable members. I suggest that the activities pf the board and its relation to the Ottawa agreement can be discussed more fully at a later stage. I have .no desire or intention to enter into a debate on the .general tariff schedule or the Ottawa agreement. To do so would be unwise, and only duplicate the discussion which is ,to take place later.

The .honorable member -f pr :Sw;an (‘MrGregory) has made a number pf suggestions which I assure him will be taken into consideration by the Government.. is, however, not essential that the chairman of the Tariff Board should be a public servant. The act provides that one of ;the four members of the board shall be an officer of :the Department of Trade and Customs. The representative of that department is -usually elected to be the -chairman, because he .is considered to be the most suitable person for the position. He knows the tariff and the departmental methods of collecting duties. Tn every way ;he is the most suitable membey to occupy the position of chairman. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the act which prevents any other member of the board from becoming the chairman. “The honorable member for Corio (Mr. Casey), in his admirable and well considered speech, made many careful suggestions, which will, at ‘the appropriate time, 2’eceive the attention of the Government. The board already has pow.er to divide itself, as has been suggested by that honorable member, into two groups. It has frequently done that. Each group takes evidence, and the Tariff Board, as a whole, later considers it and formulates its report. The honorable member has also suggested that an economist should be included in the personnel of the board, but I would point out that that body has on its staff a qualified accountant, and has frequently utilized the services of other qualified accountants.

The honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) referred to the censorship of literature and books. It is & fact that the Department of Trade and Customs, in accordance with the act, polices the admission of literature and books generally into Australia. The Minister has power to prohibit the entry of obscene, indecent or blasphemous literature. His decisions are substantially correct, because only on one occasion has any appeal been made against them. When any person feels aggrieved in respect of any decision, the department makes every facility available to him for the hearing of the appeal. It has no desire other than to act fairly and justly.

Mr Beasley:

– Who carries out the censorship ?

Mr GUY:

– The Minister takes the final responsibility. In instances in which there is a doubt, he probably reads the literature concerned. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports was evidently referring to another class of literature^ - books allegedly advocating revolution and the overthrow of governments. Those are prohibited by the Minister under a proclamation issued in accordance with the Trade and Customs Act.

The honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) has suggested that the Tariff Board should take evidence in various country centres. That would be most impracticable, because it is necessary for the board to take evidence and to complete its inquiries within, a limited time. It has, therefore, little opportunity to visit country centres.

I trust that the honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) will reconsider his amendment in view of the declaration of the Government that the Tariff Board is to- be absolutely unfettered and free, and that no instructions whatever will be issued to it.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- The Minister has referred to the prohibition of certain literature and books,, which, he said, were in some instances read by the Minister. Actually the Minister exercises little or no supervision of literature. As a matter of fact, he is merely the creature and not the master of the Customs Department. Recently a prohibition was placed on a film called “The Five Year Plan”, and I had to ask no less than four questions to extract from the Minister the fact that the film was banned without even being seen by him. It was also stated by a Minister in another place that no member of the Ministry had viewed the film or knew anything about it. I admit that, to some extent, a censorship is necessary, and that any film or literature of an immoral or objectionable nature should be banned. But there is nothing in this banned film to justify any claim that it is immoral, or unfit for public exhibition. When the exhibition of the film was prohibited, the only reason advanced by the Minister for the action taken was that it was propaganda on behalf of the Soviet Government. Yet the Minister has no objection to the daily press misrepresenting the position in Russia. Why is it that statements in the press are permitted,while a film, giving fuller details of conditions in Russia, is banned? The / film is merely a record of the industrial development of a country in which an economic system different from our own is operating, and in which there is also a different monetary system from that of most other countries. -If this experiment, which is admitted to- be one of the greatest experiments in the history of the human race,, has proved a failure, even the most ardent opponent of the Russian Government should not object to the exhibition of a film depicting that failure. If, on the other hand, the experiment has been successful, the people of Australia have a right to know wherein the Russian system differs from their own. When we consider the effect of the system in operation in- this country- « -

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is getting away from the amendment.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Surely I am entitled to compare the Russian system of government with our own, and to advocate that the public of Australia should be permitted to view this film, in order that they may judge for themselves the relative merits of the two systems. I am now dealing with tfe administration of the department rather than with the several items of expenditure. Even if this film is merely propaganda, no objection should be taken to its exhibition in this country. The question of international trade arises in this connexion. The press of Australia is endeavouring to create the impression that the attempt to develop industry in Russia on a new basis has proved a failure.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member will not be in order in discuss.ing the Russian system of government at this stage.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– It is difficult to understand what matters I may discuss in dealing with these Estimates. There must have been some reason for prohibiting the exhibition of this film. If I could show that the success or othenvise of the five-year plan in Russia would affect Australian traders, I submit that my remarks would be relevant.

The CHAIRMAN:

– A discussion of the form of government in another country cannot he permitted.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– It has been said that Australia has nothing to fear from the Russian five-year plan so far as trade is concerned; but, if this film were to show that that is not so, and that we have reason to fear competition from Russia, I submit that the action of the department in refusing to allow the film to be exhibited is, at least, mischievous. We are entitled to judge whether the departmental officers have acted in the best interests of the community. If I can show - as I think I can - that their action will have a mischievous effect, surely I am entitled to do so. The Ottawa Conference, at which representatives of the various parts of the Empire met to deal with inter-Empire trade problems, was held under the overshadowing influence of Russian trade.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is evading my ruling.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– In the library of Parliament there are books available to honorable members which are not now allowed to be imported into this country. If a book is fit to be read by members of Parliament, it is fit to be read by the general public. In order to acquaint ourselves with the conditions prevailing in other countries - their economic outlook and industrial development - we turn to these books of reference. Why should not the general public have access to the same sources of information? Some of the statements made here yesterday in relation to wars, were as much out of place as are some of the statements about wars in books whose importation has been prohibited. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) referred to a prohibited book entitled War; What for? The original prohibition of that book took place during the war ; but previously it did not come under the ban. I have read the book.

Mr Gander:

– We agree with what it says.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– If the general public read that book, they would not tolerate those who advocate spending hundreds of thousands of pounds in preparation for war, while thousands of our citizens walk the streets starving. The book shows what the money spent on Avars and destruction would accomplish if expended in other directions. It tells also of the aftermath of other wars.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must confine his remarks to the amendment.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– It may be that my understanding is at fault ; but I confess that I cannot understand the ruling of the Chair. It is useless to discuss the prohibition of literature unless we can discuss the books which have been prohibited. The Minister admits that he has not read the prohibited book nor seen the banned film, and does not know why they have been prohibited. There should be a clear understanding as to what literature shall be permitted to enter the Commonwealth, and what shall be refused admittance; there should also be a more generous interpretation of the law than at present.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

– I am surprised that a number of honorable members who have frequently said that the Tariff Board should be an absolutely free and independent body, should oppose the amendment of the honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb). The amendment seeks to establish the principle that instructions shall not be given to the Tariff Board whether or not it shall take into consideration the protective incidence of exchange and primage duties when making its recommendations.

Mr Gregory:

– I rise to a point of order. Is the honorable member in order in referring to the incidence of exchange in dealing with the tariff?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member would not be in order in discussing the rates of exchange and their effect on the tariff.”

Mr FORDE:

– In his policy speech the Prime Minister said that his Government would, in broad principle, be guided by the. recommendations of the Tariff Board. In view of that pronouncement, the people of Australia are seeking some assurance that the Tariff Board will in fact be an independent and impartial body; and it would be some consolation to them to see the amendment carried. The side-stepping of certain honorable members who previously fought for the independence of the Tariff Board, but are not prepared to support the amendment, is due to their desire to save the Government from humiliation. I recently read in the press a statement on the Ottawa agreement made by Mr. Stanley Baldwin in the House of Commons, in the course of which he said-

A start has been made to remove the dominion tariffs from politics by the establishment of tariff boards. We have secured lower tariffs from countries which hitherto practised high protection.

Mr. Baldwin was boasting of the fact that in the dominions, tariffs were to be removed from politics, and placed in the hands of independent boards. Notwithstanding the speech made this afternoon by the Assistant Minister (Mr. Guy), we have the definite statement by the Minister for Trade and Customs himself, not that ho had had a conversation with the members of the board, but that he had actually instructed the board that in future it. should not do a certain thing. If honorable members are willing to endorse the attitude of the Minister on this occasion, they must also be prepared to give the next Minister for Trade and Customs absolute freedom to issue definite instructions to the Tariff Board.

Mr Scullin:

– It cuts both ways.

Mr FORDE:

– Quite so.. In view of the nature of the Ottawa agreement, the subject of the reconstitution of the Tariff Board will have to be considered. When the people substitute for the present Government a Ministry that stands for the freedom of this Parliament to decide what amount of protection shall be afforded to Australian industries, a change in that direction will probably have to be made.

The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) objected to an officer of the Customs Department being appointed chairman of the Tariff Board. In my opinion, that gentleman is easily the most competent member of the board, and personally, I have the highest regard for him. He is a most capable officer of a department whose officials are noted for their efficiency and for the painstaking nature of their work. They all give many hours of overtime in the greatest revenue earning department in the Commonwealth. The chairman of the Tariff Board does the work of two or three members of the board. It seems to me that in the past this board has been made the refuge of friends of governments. Men have been appointed to the board because of their fiscal views. In some instances in the past, men with practically no knowledge of tariff matters have received salaries as members of the board without giving any substantial return to the taxpayers. There is a mistaken idea that certain gentlemen who are selected to represent the primary producers or the commercial community safeguard the interests of those sections, whereas, in practice, they are mostly incompetent to do the work expected of them, and rely largely for guidance upon the chairman of the board and the officers of the board who prepare the reports.

Mr Gregory:

– That is a serious reflection upon members of the board.

Mr FORDE:

– It is an opinion that I have formed after considerable experience of . tariff boards. The Assistant Minister said that the Prime Minister had made a definite statement in Sydney to the effect that the board was as free from political interference as the High Court of Australia. The mere ipse dixit of the Prime Minister is not at all convincing to me, for we have a definite statement by the Minister for Trade and Customs himself that he issued instructions to the board to do a certain thing. How many other instructions, verbal or in writing, have been given to the board, indicating that its recommendations in future should conform with the fiscal policy of the party in power, and that the general trend of duties should be downward? The Minister made only one admission; but honorable members may form their own conclusions regarding other instructions that may have been sent to the board. Believing that the board should be free and unfettered, members of the Opposition intend to support the amendment.

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Postmaster-General · Warringah · UAP

. - I suggest that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), for party purposes, has entirely misrepresented the functions and work of the Tariff Board. His allegation that friends of the Government, and men with particular fiscal leanings, have been placed on the board is entirely without foundation, so far as the ministerial party is concerned. Special care has been exercised by this Government to obtain the services of the best men available for appointment to the board. This Government, in the appointments made by it to the board, has been actuated by the sole desire to select broadminded, trustworthy and efficient men for these important positions. I was considerably surprised to hear the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who as an ex-Minister for Trade and Customs has had dealings with the Tariff Board, speak in a depreciatory manner concerning its members. He has endeavoured to make political capital out of one statement, torn from its context, that was made by the Minister for Trade and Customs in regard to a particular matter, and he is not prepared to accept the assurance given by the Prime Minister that the Tariff Board is as free, and as unfettered by political influence, as the High Court. From what source can we expect a declaration as to the policy of this party if not from the head of the Government? Obviously, the honorable member is prepared only to accept an assurance that suits his arguments.

Mr Scullin:

– He has merely quoted a statement by the Minister for Trade and Customs that certain action had been taken with regard to the board.

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:

– The Minister is not present, and I do not propose to discuss his views in detail’; I have no wish to misrepresent him. Yet, I am in a position to know the attitude of the Government regarding this matter. Our policy is to leave the Tariff Board entirely free and unfettered in its operations and in its decisions. We have never sought to suggest to the board what evidence it should accept. The act under which it was appointed accords it freedom from political interference by governments or by the Parliament. The board can snap its fingers at any suggestions or instructions given to it.

Mr Baker:

– Then why did the Minister give it an instruction?

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:

– He did not.

Mr Baker:

– He said that he did.

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:

– If this debate is being carried on because it is contended that the Minister “instructed “ the . board in a certain direction, I desire to say, with great respect to the Minister, that, if he said that, he employed a word that he did not intend to use. . I . greatly dislike having to say that, but I regard this criticism of the Minister as rather unfair, in view of his present state of health. Surely, the Government is entitled to know on what ground the Tariff Board arrives at its decisions.

Mr Gabb:

– That could be shown in the board’s report.

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:

– If a report does not state whether, in framing its recommendations, the board has taken into consideration the effect of primage and exchange, the Government is entitled to know whether those factors have been taken into consideration, so that the Parliament may frame its policy with the full knowledge of all the facts. That is the most that this Government has ever attempted to obtain from the board. Its members are appointed for a period of years, and under the act under which they are appointed, they are guaranteed freedom from political interference. Honorable members of the Opposition should not endeavour to make political capital out of this matter.

Mr Scullin:

– ‘That is unfair.

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:

– At any rate, too much has been made of it, in view of the history of this Government’s actions regarding tariff matters.

Let me offer one word in reply to the statement of the Leader’ of the Opposition that the Government is prepared to accept, willy-nilly, the reports of the Tariff Board. The Government claims that it is ready to accept them generally; but surely honorable members opposite will concede to the Government the right to use its own judgment regarding recommendations made toit by the board. Of course, the cases in which the Government refused to act upon the recommendations of the board would be exceptional. I can assure the committee that very few conferences and discussions have taken place between the present Government and the Tariff Board, and the only object of those conferences has been to ascertain the grounds on which the board’s reports have been based, so that the Government may decide as to the nature of the policy which it should pursue. I suggest that the honorable member for Angas should withdraw his amendment, in view of the clear and definite statement by the Assistant Minister, and the further statement , that I have made, on the authority of the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General, that the Government has no intention of interfering with, or giving instructions to, the board.

Mr BAKER:
Oxley

. -Will the Minister place on the table of the House the correspondence which passed between the Minister for Trade and Customs and the Tariff Board with reference to primage duties and exchange?

Mr Guy:

– There was no correspondence; the communications were verbal.

Mr GABB:
Angas

. -My object in moving the amendment has now, to a large extent, been attained. I object to receiving contradictory answers from various Ministers, and when such a thing happens, I feel justified in calling attention to it.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– I hope the honorable member is not suggesting that there was duplicity on the part of the Government.

Mr GABB:

– No; but the team work was not what it should have been. I am chiefly concerned that the public may know the. true position in regard to this matter, because I agree with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) that an important principle is involved. We have now had from two Ministers a statement, backed up by a communication from the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), that the Government favours the Tariff Board being free and untrammelled to carry out its work, and arrive at independent decisions. According to the statementof the Leader of the Opposition, he supports the same . principle, so that the two largest parties in the House are agreed upon this point. On the other hand, the attitude of the Country party amazes me. Boiled down, the statement of the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson) means that, if it suits his party, he is prepared to allow the board complete freedom of action, but if it does not, then the board must be given instructions agreeable to the opinions of the Country party. Seeing that the. object I had in view in bringing up this matter has now been attained, I am prepared, with the consent of thecommittee, to withdraw my amendment.

Honorable Members. - No!

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

.- The honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) has misunderstood and misconstrued the remarks of the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson).

Mr Fenton:

– The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) has already spoken twice on this subject. Is he in order in speaking a third time?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member for Swan spoke to the original question before the Chair, namely, that the item be agreed to. Later, the honorable member for Angas moved his amendment, and the honorable member for Swan spoke to it. Honorable members are entitled to speak twice upon each item before the Chair.

Mr GREGORY:

– The attitude of the Country party on this subject would have been announced earlier had it been able to move the adjournment of the House to discuss the subject as it had intended to do last Friday. The object of the honorable member for Gippsland was to draw the attention of the Government to the views held by the Country party on this important matter. We shall take the opportunity later of moving the adjournment of the House to make our position clear.

Question - That the amount proposed to be reduced be so reduced (Mr. Gabb’s amendment) - put. The committee divided, (Chairman - Mr. Bell.)

Ayes . . . . . . 15

Noes…… 35

Majority . . . . 20

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

.- I take it that, during the consideration of this item, honorable members will be in order in discussing the Film Censorship Board. I am not satisfied that we are justified in continuing the expenditure necessary for the maintenance of this body. Judging by the results achieved, and by the complaints that have been made, the board does not seem to be fulfilling the purpose for which it was created. The other day I read in the press a statement expressing the disapproval of the Anglican Synod of the action of the board in passing so many pictures depicting murders and suicide, or representing criminals as heroes and heroines. Complaints have also been received by some honorable members of the action of the board in banning the film known as “ The Five Year Plan “.

This film was first banned on the decision of the acting Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Perkins), or of the Cabinet, which decision was then supported in a half-hearted way by the board. Probably some honorable members who applaud its action are not desirous of learning what developments are taking place in other parts of the world, but others of us are. In order to allow honorable members to judge the work ‘ of the board, the Government should arrange for a private screening of this film. The Minister, at the time he forbade the release of the picture, had not even seen it. For my part, I should be glad to see what it is like. We hear a great deal of the five-year plan in Russia, and we should avail ourselves of this opportunity of learning as much about it as possible. If we are permitted to see the film, we may be able to judge for ourselves what is fiction and what is fact. The Minister for Trade and Customs stated the other day that the film was purely propaganda. Well, that may be said of a good many other films that are admitted for exhibition. Some of them have been described as nothing more than American propaganda.

Mr Gibson:

– How would one be able to tell what was fiction and what was fact?

Mr WARD:

– It is frequently difficult to determine that. At least an opportunity should be afforded to honorable members to see the picture. I have seen pictures of certain events the accuracy of which could be justifiably challenged, but the Government has not taken any action to prevent the exhibition of them. Surely no honorable member would argue that because a particular picture depicts something that is not in accordance with the policy of the Government, it should be condemned. Are we not all anxious to advance the interests of Australia? If this is so, Ave should be ready to allow the exhibition of the pictorial record of successful governmental achievements in other countries. If the Government were to allow a picture to be made for display in other countries of our unemployment camps, of our queues of unemployed people waiting for food rations, and of scenes showing the misery and degrada- tion in which many of our people live, this form of government would not be regarded as successful. Seeing that we have available in our library, certain prohibited books describing conditions in other countries, I cannot understand why we should not have made available to us a picture showing every-day happenings in the countries abroad. The exhibition of such pictures would be particularly valuable to those who are not fortunate enough to be able to travel in other countries at the expense of the taxpayers. I hope that the Government will favorably consider my request that the film “ The Five Year Plan “ be exhibited privately for honorable members, so that they may make up their own minds as to whether the Film Censorship Board was justified in banning its public exhibition. At present I do not think that the expenditure on the Film Censorship Board is warranted.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

– I also would like some information about the film censorship methods at present in operation. I understand that actually there is no board operating. We have been told that there is a Film Censorship Board and an Appeal Board and that those who are not satisfied with the decision of the former tribunal may appeal to the latter. But I believe that the real position is that one man controls the whole system. Mr. Creswell O’Reilly is the sole authority determining whether a film shall be exhibited or rejected. Is it a fair thing that such an important matter should be left to the decision of one individual? We shall probably be told that there can be a final appeal to the Minister for Customs, but when the film “The Five Year Plan” was banned and questions were asked in this House on the subject, we learned that the Minister had not seen the film before he issued the order which condemned it. It cannot be denied that the screen has become a big factor in the life of the people. Its importance has increased since the advent of the “ talkie “ system. The poorer sections of our people, as a matter of fact, have very little opportunity of entertainment in these days apart from the “ talkie “ pictures, and they cannot afford to spend much even in this direction. It is not right for one man to determine for the whole of Australia what films are suitable and what are not suitable for exhibition. This person must necessarily have his own political ideas and general interests, otherwise he would not be natural. He must lean in one direction or the other. I believe that for this reason the setting up of a film dictatorship, such as we have at present, is entirely unwarranted. I should like to know what the exhibitors think of the present system. The general public, of course, has no opportunity to express its opinion.

Mr GUY:
Assistant Minister · Bass · UAP

– The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) is not correct in stating that we have a one-man Film Censorship Board, for the board consists of the Chief Censor, Mr. Creswell O’Reilly, Lieutenant-Colonel L. J. Hurley, and Mrs. G. D. J. Hansen. There is an appeal from the decisions of that board to the Appeal Censor, Brigadier-General I. G. MacKay. The Customs Cinematograph Films Regulations provide that -

No film shall be registered which, in the opinion of the Censorship Board, or on appeal, in the opinion of the Appeal Censor -

is likely to be injurious to morality, or to encourage or incite to crime;

is likely to be offensive to the people of any friendly nation;

is likely to be offensive to the people of the British Empire; or

depicts any matter the exhibition of which is undesirable in the public interest.

In my opinion, those provisions are both necessary and admirable. If it were not for them, all sorts of puerile and undesirable films could be displayed, to the detriment, not only of our civilization, but of the Christian religion. The few pounds that we spend on the censorship of films is a wise expenditure, for which the public gets good value.

Mr Rosevear:

– Why was the film “ The Five Year Plan “ banned ?

Mr GUY:

– Because it was not considered desirable in the public interests that it should be exhibited. The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) has suggested that films should be privately screened for the benefit of honorable members of this Parliament. Surely he does not think that it would be practicable for us to- determine the suitability or otherwise of all the films that come to Australia? It would be absolutely impossible for us to inspect even a small number of the films that are imported.-

Mr Ward:

– I did not suggest such a thing.

Mr GUY:

– There were good and substantial reasons for the banning by the Censorship Board of this particular film. Only this morning I received a communication from the Friends of the Soviet Union protesting against thebanning of this film. I do not know whether the honorable- member is representing the view of that organization. The Film Censorship Board is doing valuable work, and as there is an appeal from its decisions to the Appeal Censor, BrigadierGeneral MacKay, I do not see that there is any room for grievances. I sincerely hope that honorable members will support the expenditure of the £4,000 provided for this purpose.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

.- I do not know whether the Assistant Minister . (Mr. Guy) was engaged in conversation with another honorable member while I was speaking, but he has certainly misinterpreted my remarks. I did not suggest that all the films that come to Australia should be inspected by honorable members. I said that some of us were particularly interested in international events, and were desirous of seeing the film, “ The Five Year Plan “, and that it might be possible to arrange a “private screening to enable us to do so. The honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) has already pointed out that such conflicting and confusing replies are given by Ministers to the questions put to them that it is difficult at times for us to know which reply is authentic and reliable. When the Minister for Trade and Customs was asked why the film “ The Five Year Plan “ was banned, he said that it was because it was intended for the purpose of propaganda; but when the Assistant Minister was asked a similar question a few moments ago, he said that it was for a different reason. In any case, who is to determine whether a film is or is not intended for the purpose of propaganda? I have no doubt that honorable gentlemen who support the present system of government, which has brought many of our people to the point of starvation, do not. desire the dissemination ofinformation respecting a highly successful system of government which has been tried in another, part of the world. But surely the majority of the members of this Parliament are not so blind to the welfare of the people that they will refuse to allow the exhibition of a film which might increase interest in and knowledge of a system of government designed to restore and maintain real prosperity. Honorable members are well aware that certain books in the Parliamentary Library which are available to us cannot be obtained in the ordinary way, because the circulation of them is prohibited. If it is considered wise to allow us access to prohibited literature in our Library, I cannot see why Ave should not be allowed to see this banned film at a private screening. If the Governmentwill not allow the exhibition of this film because it is in the nature of propaganda, it should not allow the circulation, even privately, of literature of the same character.

The Government has not refused to allow trade with Russia.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is not in order in discussing whether Australia shall or shall not trade with Russia.

Mr Dein:

– Why does not the honorable member go to Russia to live?

Mr WARD:

– I am satisfied where I am, but if I desired I could live in Russia,whereas the honorable member for Lang (Mr. Dein) would not be allowed to live there, because the Soviet destroys everything that is useless. Honorable members opposite are seeking information regarding international problems. If they are not desirous of viewing the film, I still suggest that the Minister should make arrangements to enable those honorable memberswho wish to do so to see it screened.

Mr RILEY:
Cook

– I should like to know whether an appeal has been lodged against the decision of the Censorship Board to ban “ The Five Year Plan “. I support the opinion of the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) that an opportunity should be given to honorable members to view the film, which has aroused such widespread interest. No one is infallible, and mistakes have been made from time to time by authorities set up by this Parliament. That may have occured in this instance. Mr. Creswell O’Reilly is the dominating personality on the Film Censorship Board, and I am satisfied that whatever he says “ goes.” “ The Pive Year Plan “ has been exhibited in Great Britain and other parts of the world. I felt, when it was banned in Australia, that a wrong decision may have been given. That is why I wish to know whether an appeal has been lodged. Personally; I seldom go to the pictures, but I know many who” go regularly, and ladies and gentlemen employed in the New South Wales Education Department have informed me that occasionally, films of a disgusting character are passed by the board, and screened publicly.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– Can the honorable member give an example?

Mr RILEY:

– No, because, as I say, I rarely go to the pictures.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– ‘Then the honorable member bases his conclusions merely on hearsay.

Mr RILEY:

– In view of my explanation, how can it be otherwise? It seems to be certain that the board has made mistakes and allowed films of a questionable nature to be exhibited.

  1. believe that there is room for economy in the administration of this service. I notice that £231 is provided for temporary assistance. What is the reason for that? Surelywe do not import sufficient films to keep a biograph operator going throughout the year, and I should like to know what that officer does between shipments. Will the Minister advise, also, Avhat is done with excised portions of films? I kn’ow that, some years ago, ‘quite a collection ha’d accumulated. In times like ‘the present we should exploit every avenue whereby money can be saved, and, therefore, ‘should extract the silver content from the rejectedfilm. It would ‘ probably go a’ long way towards paying thefilm cutter-.
Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.- Like many other ‘honorable mem’ber’s -on . this side,”Iviewthismatterwithagreatdeal “ofconcern.Ihave received ‘a number of letters from various organizations, and even from municipalities, claiming that the Government is adopting a wrong attitude in connexion Avith “ The Five Year Plan “. They consider that suppression will not restrain free thought, and the furtherance of ideals, and that this film should be exhibited so that the public might judge for themselves. The Minister mentioned certain reasons why picturesare banned, such as indecency, immorality, and their likeliness to cause industrial strife. He admitted that “ The Five Year Plan “ does not come under any of those categories, but that itwas banned in the “public interest”. I should like to have that point further elucidated. Was the picture banned because it demonstrates to theworld a more sane and ordered system of society than that towhich we are accustomed? Obviously there is somethingwrong with our present economic structure. Russia has surmounted itsweaknesses by instituting another system,which will some day have the unstinted admiration of the world.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is not in order in discussing a form of government or the economic policy of a country. He may ask the reasons Avhy the picture has been banned.

Mr JAMES:

– I am merely submitting reasons why “ The Five Year Plan “ should be screened in this country. Personally, I should like to see it. I have heard a lot about the conditions that now obtain in Russia, and I should like to view this film and form myown conclusions on the subject. We know that stories brought here by travellers, and also Russian literature, are misrepresented because of the bias of the journals which reproduce them.

Our country is in great difficulties. It has been proved that, under our existing social order, Ave cannot provide employment for our people. Surely we should be permitted towitness a portrayal of the activities of another social order under which, it is claimed,unemployment does not exist. If a similar film were taken of Australia it would . depict -thousands of our . population idle, industry stagnant, unemployment ‘damps scattered about . the country, and long ‘queues of unfortunate people waiting for the -dole. Inmy travels -through the country, . 1have . seen women and children living in bag shacks, and some with not even as much shelter as that.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order 1

Mr JAMES:

– Am I not allowed to tell the truth?

Mr Lane:

– Why stonewall?

Mr JAMES:

– I am not stonewalling. On several occasions I have appealed to the Minister to have this film screened. It i3 not too late for the Government to do that now. At least it should acquiesce in the suggestion made by the honorable member for East Sydney and screen “The Five Year Plan” privately for honorable members. We do not all. subscribe to the ideals of communism, but we are not in the position to combat those doctrines. Australia is seeking a way out. Here is an opportunity for us to receive enlightenment on the subject. Throughout the world there are economic troubles, with armies of unemployed on the point of revolution. Honorable members opposite are simply assisting the Communists in their propaganda by persisting in banning this film.

Mr Maxwell:

– Is there any guarantee that the film is a true representation of the conditions that exist in Russia?

Mr JAMES:

– Not having seen the film, I cannot say what it contains; but I have received a good deal of correspondence concerning it, and I know that the honorable member for EdenMonaro (Mr. Perkins) had sent to him, as Acting Minister for Trade and Customs, a number of letters, protesting against the ban, from organizations that cannot be regarded as friends of Soviet Russia, nor even be termed militant. There is much agitation throughout the country because the Government has placed this weapon in the hands of Communist propagandists. The film has been screened in Great Britain, in the United States of America, and ali over the continent of Europe. We are advised to follow England’s example in other matters, and yet we are prevented from viewing what is screened there and in the United States of America. There must be something in the film that the Government does not wish the people to see. I might not have wished to view it had no action been taken concerning it. The interest that has been aroused in it is now so widespread and intense that thousands of persons are anxious to know what it contains. The Parliamentary Library has on its shelves books and literature, the general distribution of which has been banned. We have not hesitated in, the past to sell our wheat, wool and stud sheep to Russia; yet we are not allowed to witness a film that may give us an indication of the industrial development of that country, which admittedly has been backward in the past. I appeal to the Government to realize that by this action it is merely assisting to propagate the ungodly doctrines of communism.

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

.- The exercise of censorship is always a very difficult thing. I recollect the censorship of the war period, and can recall the discussion that took place at a big conference convened by the Government of the day and held at Government House, Melbourne, at which this was one of the subjects spoken of. There is not the slightest doubt that during those years the censorship went too far. No one objected to the censoring of matter, the publication of which might assist the enemy by giving it information. It is unquestionable, however, that the censorship then was of a decidedly political character. I was the managing editor of a newspaper at the time, and had matter censored that was purely political and totally unconnected with the war. Such an experience makes one doubtful of the extent to which the power should be exercised. When the censorship is not based on sound motives, there is justification for criticism. At the time of the appointing of the first censor, a good deal of discussion took place in the Federal Parliament, and the late Mr. Pratten, who was a very efficient Minister, invited honorable members to view a private screening of most of the films that had been censored or cut. He thus checked the criticism that was being levelled against the department and the censor. The experience that I had while in office was not, perhaps, as wide as that of the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton) and the present Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde). Both of those gentlemen came in for a good deal of criticism. On one occasion the honorable member for Capricornia referred to me certain books, the banning of which had given rise to a considerable amount of discussion and widespread condemnation of the Minister. One in particular was most vicious in character. The Minister, of course, does not read everything, although he is the final arbiter; ho has officers to do the work for him. Our experience of those officers was that, generally speaking, they were efficient and reliable, and their recommendations were honestly and fairly made. Because of public condemnation, certain books were submitted to me for final decision, and I had no hesitation in supporting the banning of them because of their filthy nature and of the fact that they belonged to a class of literature that should not be permitted to enter Australia.

What is most remarkable about the film known as “The Five Year Plan” is the mystery that surrounds it. I understand that neither the Minister nor the Acting Minister has seen it. If it has been banned because it is political propaganda, that is entirely wrong. I agree with the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James), that it does not matter whether one supports or differs from the political views advanced. There is no reason why the political views of one class should be banned, and those of another not. If the film contains material the exhibition of which would cause a breach of the law, or might lead to a breach of the law; if it might incite any person to commit crime, immorality, or other outrage; if it is likely to stir up strife in the community, with a view to the overthrow of constituted authority by force, there is justification for its being censored. But it is both wrong and dangerous to ban a film or a book because it expresses opinions that the Government may not like. I am not alleging that that is so in this case, because I do not know what the film contains. I had considerable experience of criticism against the censorship during the period when I led the Government. Some of it was justified, but sometimes it went too far. On one occasion the

Postmaster-General overrode the decision of the department and allowed certain literature to be transmitted by post. A healthy rule to follow in any country is to permit the widest possible expression of opinion. Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom to express ideas on the screen, must be regarded as so important in the development of a nation that there ought not to be interference without the strongest reasons. Consequently, there is justification for the suggestion that the Minister in charge of the department should at a suitable opportunity place before the committee some descriptive matter concerning this film. If it could he shown that by it views are disseminated which warrant its being banned, the majority of honorable members would be satisfied. From what I remember of it, the Censorship Board is a very capable body. If it supplied a description of those portions of the film to which objection could really be taken, probably the discussion concerning the censorship of it would cease. If, on the other hand, it is merely a propaganda film, I think the prohibition ought to be reviewed, because propaganda is not a crime. All honorable members, at some period in their lives, have attempted a certain amount of propaganda in support of their political views, and I should say that, in the case of this film, the fact that it might be so much propaganda should not, of itself, be sufficient justification for banning it. I have read a good deal of the literature to be found in the Parliamentary Library dealing with the progress of events in Soviet Russia. Every honorable member must be interested to learn how far the five-year plan has succeeded, or to what extent it has failed; but I have to confess that, largely because of the propaganda for and against it, I find it difficult to determine whether the plan is a success or a failure.

Mr Fenton:

– Because of the principles on which it is based, it must fail.

Mr SCULLIN:

– That may be so. I am not, at this stage, concerned with the basis of the experiment. I am, however, concerned about the preservation of the free expression of opinion, provided that the overthrow by violence of the established form of government or the commission of crime i$ not advocated. During the war period, I read an interesting and eloquent appeal, made in one of our courts by the honorable mem- ber for Fawkner (Mr. Maxwell) in defence of a newspaper which was charged with having advocated republicanism. The charge failed, largely because of the appeal made by the honorable member for the unfettered expression of public opinion, the court holding that, while there was full liberty in the subject tq advocate republicanism, it did not necessarily follow that Australia was prepared to discard the monarchical system of government and set up in its place a republic. I also remember reading during the war the report of a meet’ ing held in the Albert Hall, London, which was packed to the doors, at which the speakers advocated a republican form of government. But no one would suggest that the tolerance shown by the people of Great Britain to the speakers on that occasion implied that they approved the overthrow of the monarchy, and the establishment of a republican, form of government. All that it indicated was that the authorities in Great Britain believed in the unfettered expression of opinion as a general principle. Of course, there are times when the censorship should be tightened up. Particularly is this desirable during a grave crisis, when laxity might lead to disorder, violence and bloodshed. But, generally speaking, we should jealously guard our existing privileges with reference to freedom of speech. I can cast my mind back 30 years and recall the time when those who advocated Labour principles did so at considerable risk. Iri not a few instances, men who spoke from street corners in favour of the Labour party’s platform lost their positions. On one occasion we could not get publication of our views, even in the form of an advertisement for which we were prepared to pay with money collected from our friends. Because of what happened to those of us who were identified with Labour propaganda in those years, I would say now that we should jealously guard this right to the free expression of opinion, provided it is done in a proper way. I suggest that the Government should arrange for honorable members to have a private view of this film if that pan be done conveniently. If it is not prepared to do that, it might give honorable members a description of the portions objected to, so that we may form some judgment as to whether it should have been entirely banned. Many films from which cuts have been made are being screened to-day. If this film is of such a character as to justify the action of the censor in banning it, surely some description of the features to which objection is taken, can be given to honors able members. If this is not done, there will be a suspicion that the Censorship Board is being influenced by the Government for political reasons.

Mr GUY:
Assistant Minister · Bass · UAP

– The honorable member for Cook (Mr. Riley) suggested that there was room for economy in expenditure in connexion with the film censorship. Very careful consideration has been given to that aspect of the matter. The vote this year is a good deal less than the provision made, and considerably less than the actual expenditure for last year. There is a film cutter and operator. When the film cutter is npt so engaged he is occupied in the work of film reconstruction. There are two lanterns going all the time, and when any doubt arises as to the propriety of certain portions of a film, it is exhibited to all the members of the Censorship Board for their decision. The honorable mem? ber for Cook also asked for information about the expenditure on temporary assistance. Under this heading £182 is provided for an operator, and £4,9 to enable work to be carried on while the operators are on annual leave. The “right honorable the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin), has suggested thai arrangements be made for a private screening .of the film for the benefit of honorable members. I was not in the Ministry when the film was banned, but I shall undertake to put the suggestion before the Minister to ascertain whether the film was banned because of its political features, and see whether it .can be screened.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.^-1 . am glad that the Assistant Minister has given us that promise, because I think it is most unfair’ to’ ban a film merely because of its- political- significance. When I was Speaker of the House and Chairman of the Library Committee, a number’ of official- publications’ relating to the Soviet Union” were placed on the librafry: table for- the information of honorable’ members. “While honorable’ members may not be in sympathy with all that is done in Russia-,, it is- desirable that we should be fully informed of, politi(jaib movements in other countries, provided’ the i-nformartion is from- authorized sources. I. would,, therefore, say that ifthis film bears- the imprimatur of the’ Soviet” Government,! and if it does- notoffend) against our sense ofcwh’at is- right, iti might,, with propriety, be screened’ in Australia. I understand it is permitted to be shown in. the United States of. America and. in Great Britain. In an enlightened community, such as. w.e claim to be,- the people- can be trusted- to appreciate the best that is in the film, and fully understand those features of it which might not be in the best interests’ of this country.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– If I were a younger man I would gp to Russia-, so- anxious* am- I to obtain firsthand information of the greatest’ experiment that has- ever been attempted inthe history- of civilization. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) hasasked that honorable members be permitted to see this -film. If that- is done I’ suggest that a secret ballot be held of the members viewing, it, to ascertain whether or not, in their opinion, it should be made’ available1- f or screening in- this country.

Mr Rosevear:

– Will the Minister give a definite undertaking- to’ have the filmscreened for the benefit of honorable members ?’

Mr GUY:
Assistant Minister · Bass · UAP

– I have already stated that I will’ bring- the suggestion under the notice of the Minister. If it is considered practicable and desirable, the’ suggestion ‘will be adopted and the film screened1.- mr.ward.- -Will’ any additional, cost be involved if it is screened’?

Mr GUY:

– I do- not know.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Health

Proposed vote, £93,600.

Sir LITTLETON GROOM:
Darling: Downs

– I shoiild’ like to obtain” some information froin-the Minister (Mr. Marr) with respect to the reduction of thestaff of the Health Department, particularly in Queensland. In New SouthWales there has been a reduction of five’ officers; but in- Victoria- the number- ist unaltered. In South Australia the staff this year is to be the same as it was last” year, in Western Australia there is a reduction of one, and in Tasmania the number remains unaltered. In Queensland and the Northern Territory, however; the staff has been reduced by eleven, includ^ ing three medical officers. In view of’ the fact that Queensland has an extensive coastline on which there are many ports, some of which are- in close proximity to countries from which tropical diseases’ may’ be- introduced^ it is’ essential that a sufficient number of medical officers shouldbe available. In view’ of the reduction mentioned, is the Minister satisfied that’ the ri’ecessairy’ precautions are being taken’ to’ protect the Commonwealth? If suflrcierit care1 is not taken irr’ this part of Australia, the whole continent may be’ affected. Can the Minister explain why the’ number of officers in Queensland and the1 Northern Territory has been- reduced, and1 is he satisfied- that there are sufficient safeguards to prevent the introduction’ of dangerous diseases’ to Australia ?

Mr RILEY:
Cook

.- The proposed’ vote for this financial year is £8,644 -less than the amount expended last; year. It appears1 that the’ bulk of this reduction has been’ made’ in central administration largely as a result of- the- failure’ of the- Government to> appoint a divisional director of industrial hygiene and1 a director of maternity and’ infant welfare. Some- years ago, the Bruce-Page Government invited Dame Janet Campbell’ to- report on infant and-: maternal! mortality, and’ so- far as I can’- gather effect has- not’ been- given1 to. Che -recommendations contained in her report; I should like- the Minister toindicate the policy of the Governmentwith respect to- industrial hygiene andmaternal and infant’ welfare. It is: regr”et’table;tO’:realize that- -5j000- infants- die in -Australia before they are twelve months; old, and that maternity eases are responsible for the loss of approximately 700 mothers annually. This is a serious loss to the Commonwealth, and the Government should endeavour to reduce maternal and infant mortality to a minimum. It is only by appointing suitable medical officers that this loss can be prevented. I should prefer a reduction of defence expenditure to economy in the Department of Health. I think it is three years since applications were invited from medical men and women willing to accept a position in connexion with maternal and infant welfare at a salary of £1,200 a year, and I should like to know if anything has been done in this matter. If the Government is anxious to reduce mortality it should show its sincerity by providing an adequate staff.

Mr PRICE:
Boothby

.- As honorable members are aware, the keeping of goldfish has become popular in Australia, and as consignments are received from Japan and other countries to the north, there is a great danger of such fish introducing disease which may have a serious effect in Australia. In order to protect the fish already here, and also to prevent the introduction of disease, the establishment of a. quarantine station appears necessary. Mr. Geisler, who is a recognized authority, and the owner of a very fine aquarium at Kent Town, South Australia, made an offer to the Government to inspect, free of charge, all fish imported into Australia and to provide quarantine, as he believed that there was a real danger of disease entering Australia. “Will the Minister look carefully into this matter?

Mr MARR:
Minister for Health · Parkes · UAP

– When the budget was under discussion, the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) referred to the overlapping of certain Commonwealth and State activities. Although it has been stated from time to time that the Commonwealth has entered into activities which should be under the control of the State authorities, a careful investigation shows that no such duplication exists. As the result of a decision reached at a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers last year, a Public Service inspector was appointed to inquire into this matter, and he reported that there is no such overlapping in respect of health functions. The honorable member also referred to the laboratory in Western Australia, which he suggested could be taken over by the State authorities. The Government would be prepared to hand it over if the State Government were agreeable. In connexion with the general re-organization of the department, suggestions were made in the press and elsewhere that the operations of the laboratories at Bendigo and Lismore should be discontinued. Reports have been received on the subject but as the laboratories are performing useful work it is not proposed to make a change. To say that the work of these laboratories is a duplication of activities already carried out by the States is incorrect.

The Estimates show that the number of health officers in Queensland has been reduced from eleven to eight, but that reduction does not affect the efficiency of the department. As a result of reorganization, Dr. Cilento, who is the senior medical officer in Queensland, and officer in charge of tropical hygiene, is now established at Brisbane instead of at Townsville. Moreover, the Queensland authorities are now conducting investigations in connexion with hookworm and similar diseases which were previously undertaken byCommonwealth officers.

Sir Littleton Groom:

– Who is undertaking the work which was previously performed by the three medical officers who have been transferred?

Mr MARR:

– Some of the work is being performed by State officials. There has been no diminution of activities with respect to quarantine. The Commonwealth Health Department is watching the position very closely and I can assure the honorable member for Darling Downs that every precaution will be taken to prevent the introduction of tropical diseases into Queensland ports.

Mr Nairn:

– Could not the States control quarantine?

Mr MARR:

– The Constitution provides that in health matters the Commonwealth shall have control. We have invoked the aid of the State authorities with respect to plant and animal quarantine.

The honorable member for Boothby, (Mr. Price), who referred to the possibility of goldfish being responsible foi- the introduction of certain diseases, said that a person in South Australia was prepared to undertake the work of inspection free of cost; but the Government could not allow such work to bo undertaken by any private citizen however reputable he might be. The position is being closely watched.

The honorable member for Cook (Mr. Riley) referred to industrial hygiene and maternal and infant mortality. Industrial hygiene can be more effectively carried out by the State authorities. The Commonwealth has given material assistance in the direction, particularly in Western Australia and in Broken Hill, and in order to provide the most efficient service is quite prepared to co-operate with the States in any work they are carrying on in this direction. Certain vacancies have occurred in the central administration which will not be filled for the time being; but consideration will be given to the necessity for increasing the staff should that be considered desirable. The School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine, established by the Commonwealth at the Sydney University, has been of tremendous benefit in training officers for the Territorial Service, and in conducting experiments in connexion with tropical diseases. I cordially recommend honorable members to pay a visit to that school. All residents in the Pacific islands are permitted to take a course at the school, and approximately 30 doctors and 39 other persons connected with missions in the islands have done so.

Notwithstanding the allegation that the Department of Health is duplicating some of the activities of State authorities,, honorable members will admit that it is highly efficient and doing a good job of work. An important branch of the department is the serum laboratory in Melbourne; it also is well worthy of a visit by honorable members. Ever since the war demonstrated the need for Australia to be self-reliant iu this respect, this establishment has been manufacturing serums and vaccines for the whole Commonwealth. It has sup plied a long-felt want and is doing work of great value to the Commonwealth.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- Will the Minister explain the item “ Allowances for services of State officers and others, £2,150 “ ? I notice also that though the medical officers and technical assistants in the laboratories in New South Wales have been reduced from two to one in each case, the vote for salaries is practically the same as the expenditure last year.

Mr NAIRN:
Perth

.- I am. not satisfied with the Minister’s explanation of the reason for maintaining branches of this big and costly department in different States. He did not convince me that the work now done by Commonwealth officers cannot be done by State officers under delegated powers. The Minister stated that quarantine must be administered by the Commonwealth, but he admitted that stock quarantine is delegated by the Commonwealth to the States. Health is a composite subject and there is no logical reason for an arbitrary division of its control between two governments. The Constitution empowers the Commonwealth to deal with certain health matters, including quarantine, but if the Commonwealth had not chosen to assume those responsibilities they would still have been discharged by the States. All health matters could be efficiently dealt with by State officers. The Minister stated that there is no duplication of Commonwealth and State activities. The Commonwealth is entitled to deal with only those health matters prescribed in the Constitution; quarantine is one of them. If the Commonwealth confined itself to these matters, naturally no State officers would be functioning in tho same field.

Mr Gander:

– Why should not the Commonwealth control all health matters ?

Mr NAIRN:

– The Commonwealth is not authorized by the Constitution to occupy the whole field, and, therefore, it is not necessary for it to intrude there at all, especially as its intrusion means greater cost.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– Does the honorable member mean that the Commonwealth should not control quarantine?

Mr NAIRN:

– There is- no- specialvirtue in’ Commonwealth control. A- State’ officer is as< well qualified- as. is. a Commonwealth officer to decide, for instance, whether Japanese gold-fish should be. admitted to Australia.

Mr Beasley:

– There must be a”- common quarantine policy” throughout the Commonwealth’.

Mr NAIRN:

– Not necessarily; but State officers could confer and arrive- at a common policy.

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– -There- is no guarantee that that would be. done.

Mr NAIRN:

– The assumption seems! to- be- that only a Commonwealth: authority is capable of safeguarding the health of the public:;, but in those fields’ in which the federal authority is- not authorized to act, State health departments are functioning: efficiently.. In? factious, diseases’,, for instance, are controlled by State officers-. “Why should-1 they -not control* health, generally, in^eluding quarantine:?:-

Mr.NOCK (Riverina) [8.25].- t have received a strong complaint regarding; the’ quality of the insulin produced at the Commonwealth– laboratories; and have been requested’ to urge that imported’ insulin be admitted duty-free. Can the’ Minister give me an assurance’ regarding; the” quality- of’ the local product’?

Mr.HUTCHIN (Denison) [8.26].-I. regretthat the Government has found it necessary to discontinue the- division of< industrial hygiene. I have had some experience of it, particularly in connexionwith the mining, industry,, and I know tli at- it has- done great public service. A. layman may imagine that a- doctor- can; do any medical job; but in industrial) hygiene; as in other fields of medicine,specialization is necessary. The Federal Department of Health made possible specialization, which ordinarily wouldnot be available through the. medical’ services’ of the States. State medical’ officers cover , a wide field of. public health - so wide, indeed, that they are unable tospecialize to the extent necessary to do an effective job in connexion with such problems as hookworm,, pneumono- Uoniosis, and! silicosis. But through the operations of the Commonwealth division of industrial1 Hygiene, and’ the serum laboratories)- particularly that- at Kalgoorlie dealing with silicosis,- and the: other at Port Pirie- dealing- with leadpoisoning,, invaluable service has been rendered to- the mining industry and its employees. The depression has forced lis to- hunt for gold, and a- great revival has taken place)- not only in prospecting,, but also in mining. Gold-mining hasbeen’, a notoriously unhealthy industry,, particularly in Western Australia^- on. a-ccount of the character of the country ia which the gold is found. Over a. number of years1, the loss of life and the breakdown of- health, amongst miners, ha-ve beem considerable.

Mr Gregory:

– Not nearly so- bad as it was at Bendigo.

Mr HUTCHIN:
DENISON, TASMANIA

– In the mines of Western Australia, a high percentage of men became permanently incapacitated” through silicosis, and a large number died’ at early ages. The division of industrial’ hygiene, specializing as only a Commonwealth department could, was engaged1 in very useful activities- in relation t’o the diseases peculiar to mining. I join with the honorable member for Cook. (.Mr. E.. Riley)’ in expressing’ the hope that the elimination of this division will not be permanent, and that an improvement in th’e finances will soon permit tlie Commonwealth, again’ to join with, the States in specialization and co-ordination; suchwork will mean much to the” general” health of the community, and probably save many lives; particularly in the goldmining industry.

Sir LITTLETON GROOM:
Darling, Downs

. -The- honorable member, for. Perth (Mr: Nairn): questioned1 why the Commonwealth should control quarantine. It must do so for two reasons - first, Because that responsibility was vested in the Federal Parliament by the Constitution; and secondly, because of the vital necessity for quarantine to be- administered uniformly by a’ central administration exercising powers throughout the continent. Realizing that once- a disease- was introduced, into the Commonwealth it would’ take no heed of State, boundaries, and unless promptly cHecked;. would soonspread over the whole’ of the continent’ and Become a national menace; the framers of the Constitution deemed it’ essential to establish a standard of quarantine for the whole of Australia under one central administration. In times of health we talk lightly of the likelihood of disease, but when the dread’ menace appears we shall soon realize the consequences. In 1908, when it was my duty to assist in the passage of the Quarantine Bill through this chamber, there was a strenuous fight to maintain the principle of Commonwealth control. Later, it became my duty, as Minister for Trade and Customs, to administer that legislation, and when an outbreak of smallpox took place in Sydney drastic action was taken to combat it. Some honorable members will probably recollect the adverse criticism which was levelled at the Federal Government for quarantining the whole of Sydney and making provision for vaccination, but that step had to be taken in the interests of the nation, . It was said that it was not a case of true smallpox. The attitude of the Commonwealth quarantine officers was questioned, but the Government stood firm. Advice had been received that just then the same disease had, in some instances, assumed a virulent aspect in the United States of America. Let me give another illustration. When Mr. Massy Greene was Minister for Trade and Customs, some years ago, there was a serious epidemic of influenza. A Premiers Conference, which was taking place at the time in Melbourne, terminated suddenly because of the sudden appearance of this epidemic in Melbourne. The State authorities endeavoured to apply interstate quarantine, with the result that chaos prevailed. Quarantine boundaries were established along the river Murray, Western Australia prohibited traffic on the east-west railway, and Queensland dislocated shipping activities. The conditions were so chaotic that within a few months the Commonwealth was asked to assume full control of quarantine, external and internal, which it should have ha,d in. the first place. The nation cannot afford to recognize State boundaries when its people are menaced by disease. Experience has shown the wisdom of the fathers, of federation in placing the quarantine power under the control of the Commonwealth.

At various times the Commonwealth, recognizing that the States have certain powers, has met them in an effort to arrange an allocation of duties which would prevent duplication. Take the question of health. Queensland, the Northern Territory, northern Western Australia and New Guinea are all tropical or sub-tropical areas. The aim of the Australian people is so settle those areas with white people. When this nation was first established it was argued by some people that the white races could not live in the . northern part of Australia because of the climate. It was not the climate but living conditions and diseases, which have since been found to be remediable. The Commonwealth has established a Tropical Diseases Institute at Townsville, and at that institute Dr. Cilento carried out his investigations in connexion with the settlement of North Queensland, his object being to investigate diseases so as to give white people an opportunity to » live there in decency and comfort. It is the Commonwealth’s function to deal with the prevention of tropical diseases and in that respect we do not duplicate State services. Because some people who visited North Queensland saw there one or two sickly children, they assumed that children could not live in the tropics. Investigation showed that the children in question were suffering from the hookworm disease, and with medical treatment they were soon restored to health and vigor. Experience has shown that a virile white race can flourish in the coastal districts of the north. I regret that when the question of economy arises there is a tendency to reduce the expenditure on tropical investigations. To do that, I think, would be mistaken economy,, because in the interests of the preservation of the health of the nation, the spread of disease must be prevented, and the disease must be eradicated. We are fortunate in having such admirable officers connected with the Health Department. Dr. Cilento was chosen by the League of Nations to make a special investigation into the conditions, in the Pacific. It was one of the greatest honours that could have been conferred upon him. Hi’s report is’ known abroad and valued. We, as Australians, never boost our own people, and it is probable, and regrettable that too few. of his fellow countrymen are aware of the existence of that report.

Mr PRICE:

Dr. Cilento is a native of South Australia.

Sir LITTLETON GROOM:

– South Australia has produced many great men. In the early days, Kingston and other great statesmen stood for a national policy. At the Federal Convention, the representatives of South Australia were amongst the most capable of those present. Health matters have now been taken up by the League of Nations, and Australia is working in co-operation with that body. I hope that the Minister will insist on the maintenance of a standard of efficiency in his department, because it plays a necessary and important part in the life of the nation.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.- We cannot expend too much in maintaining and improving the health of the people, and in encouraging medical research and science. Thousands of our people, particularly the unemployed, are not receiving proper medical attention. I anticipate that the Minister will reply that that is a matter, not for the Commonwealth, but for the States. But many of the unemployed are to-day suffering from malnutrition, and the lack of a reasonable standard of comfort. Many organizations in my electorate have informed me that some doctors operating in that area are practically on the dole because of the fact that they have spent their incomes in the provision of medicine and drugs for the sick. In the mining-fields, the miners, through their organizations, have instituted a compulsory system of contribution to members of the medical profession and hospitals. In some localities they have established their own hospitals, to the upkeep of which they make fortnightly contributions; but the majority of the contributors are now unemployed, and, therefore, cannot pay for the medical treatment that they receive. I appeal to the Government to make a sum of money available for the assistance of medical practitioners who are ministering to the wants of the unemployed. The members of the medical profession place humanity above greed, because they continue to attend to sick persons who are unable to pay for the drugs and medicines supplied to them. In these Estimates £254 is provided for “Assistant (Small Animals)”, presumably for laboratory work or tests in connexion with animals, and it may be that it is undertaken really in the interests of human beings. Even if it is not, no one objects to proper care being taken of our domestic animals, but our first consideration should be for our fellow men. Some time ago the late Dr. Arthur reported that numbers of children attending the schools in my electorate, in the coalfields, were suffering from malnutrition. Of what value is our boasted civilization if little children, who should know nothing but sunlight and happiness, have to face black despair day after day, and are denied proper food and medical attention simply because the Commonwealth regards their care as a matter for the States? Why have a federal health department at all, if not to care for the health of the people? Otherwise, it is a mere duplication of State efforts, and exists only to provide jobs for doctors and others. If the health of the people is solely the responsibility of the States, there is np need for a federal health department except to care for the inhabitants of the Federal Capital Territory and of the other territories administered by the Commonwealth. The Government should adopt a more sympathetic attitude towards the States in this matter, particularly in relation to those doctors who spend their time .and incur heavy expenses in administering to the sick poor throughout the country, without any hope of remuneration.

I have not yet seen any report on the Spahlinger serum for the treatment of tuberculosis which was brought into Australia eight or ten months ago. In reply to questions, the Minister informed me some time ago that tests of the serum had not then been made. I should be “glad to know whether anything has been done since then, and, if so, with what result. I can assure the Minister that many people are intensely interested in this matter. I urge the Government to make a grant to the doctors who, without hope of fee, are attending to the unemployed sick throughout Australia to-day.

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

.- The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) wonders why Ave have a Commonwealth Department of Health. Any one whO studies the Constitution must admit that it Avas never intended that there should be such a Commonwealth department. The honorable member for Darling Downs (Sir Littleton Groom) lifted us into the clouds When he spoke of the marvellous work performed by the medical profession, especially in regard to tropical diseases. It is true that the medical profession has done much to make the tropics more healthy for white people, but Ave have nullified its good work by building up economic conditions which make it impossible for them to live there. The question Ave have to decide is whether Ave can afford the enormous expense of this department, which in 1929-30 and 1930-31 cost £300,000 a year. We cannot afford that heavy expenditure, and I am glad that it has been reduced.

Mr Beasley:

– The country cannot spend too much in safeguarding the health of its people.

Mr GREGORY:

– If Ave have not the money, we cannot do it.

Mr Beasley:

– Would the honorable member prefer to let the people die?

Mr GREGORY:

– As I have said, good work has been done by the Commonwealth Health Department in connexion Avith tropical diseases and silicosis, but health matters generally, like education, are the responsibility of the States, for they have to find the money for the hospitals. The honorable member for Darling Downs spoke of the necessity for quarantine matters being controlled by the Commonwealth, but I remind him that Western Australia had to foot nearly the whole of the bill connected with the outbreak of rinderpest. During the influenza epidemic the Commonwealth urged that people from the Eastern States should be permitted to travel to and from Western Australia, but the people of that State refused to allow them in. Although the people of Western Australia appreciate the assistance given by the Commonwealth in connexion with miners’ complaints, they are not too pleased with the Commonwealth control of health matters. The honorable member for Denison (Mr. Hutchin) spoke of the conditions existing in the mines of Western Australia. When gold was discovered in that State it attracted from Tasmania, Victoria and South Australia many miners who, a few years later, involved Western Australia in heavy expenditure because of their ill-health. For the last fifteen or twenty years the mining regulations of Western Australia have been far ahead of similar regulations in the other States. It should satisfy the honorable member for Denison to know that Western Australia obtained a specialist from Tasmania to advise the State in this matter. In considering these items of expenditure, I have in mind particularly the cost to those engaged in rural industries who are building up the wealth of the community. It is the duty of the Commonwealth to reduce its expenditure. Two years ago £200,000,000 was extracted from 6,500,000 people for the expenses of the Commonwealth and the States. This country will not develop as it should so long as there is this interference by governments.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

.- I am amazed at the outlook of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) because the health of the people should be one of the first concerns of this National Parliament. The honorable member admits that the Health Department has done good work, and that the health of the people should be its care; but he wonders where the money for the purpose is to come from. There is no shortage of funds to provide the means of destroying life. The honorable member would increase the expenditure of the Department of Defence, which is already nearly £3,000,000 per annum, but he objects to £93,000 being voted in the interests of the health of the people. I agree Avith the honorable member for Darling Downs (Sir Littleton Groom), that, if we Avant a virile race we must provide our people Avith good homes and wholesome foods. The honorable member failed to tell us how these things were to be provided. Australia has ample open spaces, and plenty of materials for the building of homes for its people; it has, moreover, artisans and other workers capable of constructing these homes. Many of them are walking the streets seeking work. There is also an abundance of food in Australia. Unfortunately, it is not made available to those who need it most. From time to time’ legislation has been passed in the interests of the health of the people. The States have their Pure Food Acts, which provide that certain substitutes shall be branded accordingly. No longer may acetic acid be called vinegar or margarine butter. Commodities must be branded according to their true nature in order that the people generally may distinguish the genuine article from the substitute, but what advantage is gained by branding goods in this way if the people cannot afford to buy other than the cheaper article, knowing when they do so that it is only a substitute and injurious ?

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Bell:

– The honorable member is digressing.

Mr WARD:

– In a matter so important as the health of the people the Commonwealth should co-operate more with the States. When arbitration courts proceed to determine the absolute minimum wage on which a worker, his wife and family can live in reasonable comfort,’ they investigate food values; yet many hundreds of unemployed and their dependants are forced to accept a standard of living below the lowest standard laid down by the courts of the land.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is again digressing from the subject before the Chair.

Mr WARD:

– I suggest that the Minister for Health should point out to the State authorities that many thousands of people in this country are suffering from malnutrition, which makes them specially liable to attack by disease. Steps should be taken immediately to provide the unemployed with an adequate supply of good food. This would be in the interests of the- general health of the community. What advantage is there’ in spending large, sums of money in investigating the causes of the ills of humanity, if the results of the inquiries are not applied for the benefit, of the community ? Thousands- of: persons die annually because of malnutrition. Many persons have only one set of clothing, and they are compelled to wear the same clothes summer and winter. A person who has been under-nourished may develop a serious illness following upon an ordinary cold, whereas, if his health had not been undermined-

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must realize that however necessary it is for the people to be well-fed and properly clothed, it is a matter that has nothing whatever to do with the administration of the Commonwealth Health Department.

Mr WARD:

– I presume that the Minister is prepared to listen to suggestions as to how the general health of the people, and the administration of his department could be improved. This country has spent millions in training forces for the destruction of human life; but a community that professes to be Christian should put the teachings of the Christian religion into practice. The welfare of our fellow men should be our first consideration. The Labour party believes that the health of the people should be cared for by action on national lines. At the present time, this work is disorganized through lack of hospital accommodation, and the Commonwealth Government should See that the. trouble is remedied. The Government, should give further consideration to the defence vote.

The CHAIRMAN:

-The honorable member must address himself to the subject before the Chair, or resume his seat.

Mr WARD:

– The Government will probably contend that funds are not available to provide the services that I am recommending; but I feel sure that Ministers agree that they are desirable. If the Government communicated with the State authorities, arrangements could possibly be made for the provision of funds for the erection of the additional’ hospitals of which the community stands in sore need.

Mr PATERSON:
Gippsland

.- In his- opening remarks,, the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) seemed to imply that the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory)”- was not at” all concerned about the health- of the’ people of Australia, and was not prepared to see any money spent in the direction:. of maintaining or improving public health. I believe, that the honorable member for Swan is as much concerned about the health of the people as is the honorable member for East Sydney. The difference between the view-points of those honorable members is that, while the honorable member for East Sydney favours national control, the honorable member for Swan, with a persistence that we must all admire, contends that the object could be best attained through the medium of State instrumentalities. Personally, I do not agree with the honorable member for Swan in that contention. I believe that quarantine matters should be under Commonwealth control. “We should remember what, happened some decades ago in Europe. The ports of Europe were liable to outbreaks ofsuch dreadful diseases as plague, small-pox, and cholera. Such diseases infected those ports at frequent intervals, yet the desire of each country to- impose its own quarantine regulations prevented the health of Europe from being properly safeguarded. It was only when the great cholera epidemic of1892 occurred that the- stern logic of facts, compelled the various nations, of Europe to take international action.. Aa. international quarantine law was drawn; up, and since then there, has been, no serious- outbreak of cholera in any port of Europe.. Just as unity of action was needed in stamping out. cholera in- Europe,, a centralized system of administration, is required in our great continent in, connexion with quarantine affairs, in order that thehealth of the. people may be maintained.

Mr MARR:
Minister for Health. · Parkes · UAP

.- In reply to the honorable member forDalley (Mr. Rosevear)’-, I point out that the reduction in the vote for medical1 officers- for- New South Wales- laboratories is; due to- the- reduction -if. the staff. Only one- medical officer audi one technical’ assistant are provided for this year, although two of each were shown on last year’s- Estimates-

Mr Rosevear:

– I said that the amount of’ the- vote was almost the- same as last year.

Mr MARR:

– Twopositions were provided for- on last year’s Estimates, but only one was, filled. This year only one is provided for. The vote of £2,150, to which the honorable member also referred, is for the fees of State officials in connexion with plant quarantine. An allowance is made to State officers for doing this work on behalf of the Commonwealth.

The honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Nairn)** again raised the subject of duplication and overlapping of State and Commonwealth activities, and I was glad to hear the remarks of the honorablemember for Darling Downs **(Sir Littleton Groom),** who clearlyoutlined the position of the Commonwealth in- that regard1. Under the Constitution, the Commonwealth is empowered to legislate inrespect of quarantine matters. It is essential that there should' be a central control, instead of separate authorities inthe six States. A former government established a Federal Health Council,, with the object of holding annual conferences between- the Federal and' State health- organizations1, and the council has' set itself the task of co-ordinating health activities in the- various- States. Consequently all duplication, of health services has been eliminated. The knowledge1 and experience that have been imparted as the- result' of the conferences- have been helpful to both the State and- the Com- monwealthadministrations: The activities of the Commonwealth in regard to cancer research reflect great credit on the Health Department. In no other country has there been a national campaign1 in- which so1 much time, thought and money have been- devoted Co- cancer research as there lias been' in Australia. Every honorable member, I a-m- sure,, will give credit to the departfment for' the excellent work- doneinthatdirection, and! we hope that its efforts will be eventually crowned1 with complete success. During the regime of the Bruce-Page Government,. flOO'0001 was spent in- the purchase of radium, which has been distributed1 throughout, the Commonwealth,, and has proved of: the utmost. v<alue' to those engaged in preventing the; spread of thisdread, disease: The standardization oft the- work in the- various; States has* been brought about! by the Commonwealth! department. The State1- authorities are chaEged'for the use-of radiumj.and despite the wide use to which it has been put, only an infinitesimal quantity has been lost. {: .speaker-KYH} ##### Mr Price: -- Has any Australian radium been used in the hospitals? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- So far as I am aware, no. I may inform the honorable member for Cook **(Mr. Riley)** that infant mortality and the welfare of expectant mothers are among the matters dealt with by the State authorities. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- But the Commonwealth pays a maternity allowance. Mr.MARR.- Yes, and probably the money could be spent to better advantage if the States were given control of that expenditure. They have the maternity hospitals under their control. New South Wales has an efficient maternity and infant welfare department, and if similar institutions were established in the other States, I should be willing to have that work undertaken by the States in co-operation with the Commonwealth. A few years ago the Commonwealth Government brought to Australia Dame Janet Campbell, a well-known' world authority on infant welfare, and an effort was made by her to co-ordinate the activities in that regard in the various States. The prevention of infant mortality should not be left entirely to the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Are not a thousand lives a year worth saving? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- Undoubtedly they are. The honorable member's contention that the Commonwealth should concern itself to a greater extent with these matters is directly opposed to the opinion of the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Nairn),** who urged that the Commonwealth should abandon the field to the State health authorities. I believe that the best results would be obtained by co-operation between the State and Commonwealth authorities. The honorable member for Riverina **(Mr. Nock)** advocated the removal of the present duty on imported insulin, so that those who are unfortunately suffering from diabetes will be able to get imported supplies at the lowest cost. That is a matter which concerns the Customs Department, and the honorable member may urge his request when the particular tariff item is under consideration. Recently I received a communication stating that it was necessary to import insulin because of the inferiority of the Australian product. In order to test the truth of that assertion, I obtained reports from 600 medical men in Australia, and not a dozen of them reported against Australian insulin. The others said that it was as good as anything that could be produced in the world. A recent Americanpublication states that the insulin produced in the United States of America varies in its reaction on human beings according to the animal which has been inoculated for the purpose of preparing the serum. On the authority of those whose opinions we must respect, it appears that Australian insulin is equal to anything that can be imported. The honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. James)** asked what was being done to have, the Spahlinger treatment for tuberculosis, if proved to be effective, introduced into Australia. In dealing with this subject ten months ago, I said that information regarding this treatment was about to be made available. We have since then received a communication from **Dr. Spahlinger,** but the medical authorities report that it containsno information which would be of the slightest assistance in the manufacture of serum or vaccines. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Did the medical authorities state whether, in their opinion, Spahlinger was a fraud or a crank ? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I do not wish to disparage the man, but the general opinion seemed to be that he was a fraud, and that his treatment was valueless. I do not blame him for withholding publication of his formula if he thinks he is not being adequately rewarded, but, as I have said, the medical authorities report that what has been made available by him is of no use whatever. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- What about hospital accommodation ? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- Hospital accommodation is a matter for the States, except, of course, in territories under the control of the Commonwealth. In the Federal Capital Territory, hospital accommodation has always been provided by the Commonwealth Government for those unable to pay for treatment. One of my jobs every week is to write off amounts owing by residents and ex-residents of the Territory who have not been able to pay for hospital treatment received. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Will the Minister communicate with the Government of New South Wales, and urge upon it the necessity for providing more hospital accommodation in that State? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I do not believe that any hospital with beds available will refuse to take in those in need of treatment. I recognize that the health of the community is of paramount importance, and I shall certainly do anything in my power to promote public health. The honorable member for Darling Downs **(Sir Littleton Groom)** referred to the good work done by **Dr. Cilento.** From the information at my disposal, it is evident that the Health Department is a most efficient organization. This is borne out by the fact that the League of Nations, a year or two ago, delegated to the head of our department, the control of its activities in the East, including Singapore, China and Japan. Although we arranged for **Dr. Cumpston** to proceed to China this year, he was unable to get away owing to pressure of work in his own department, and the conference was postponed because he could not attend. **Dr. Cilento** was chosen by the League of Nations to do work in the countries bordering the Pacific, and just recently we lost the services of the second director, **Dr. Park,** who was at Australia House. He put in twelve months' work for the League of Nations, and is now permanently employed by it. The recognition of these officers by the League is a feather in the cap of the Commonwealth Health Department. {: #subdebate-13-0-s48 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter .- I am sorry that the Minister did not say how it was proposed to assist the unemployed to obtain medical attention. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- We have no control outside our own territories. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- Practically one wing of the Cessnock Hospital, containing 30 beds, was recently closed because the board was unable to find funds to carry on. There are more people on the coalfields seeking hospital treatment 'now than at any other time, and it is disgraceful that, in a civilized community, hospitals have to be closed down for lack of money. When considering the Estimates for the Health Department, we are entitled, I claim, to discuss anything designed to promote public health, and in this connexion I cannot refrain from protesting against the callous action of the authorities who turned unemployed persons out of the West Maitland and Canberra camps, in which they had been living. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is out of order. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- Of course I am out order when I mention such matters, but I claim that the health of those men and women was affected by their being driven from the shelter of the camp. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The committee is at present considering the Estimates for the Health Department, and the discussion must be confined to that. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- Those who were deprived of shelter must have suffered in health as a consequence. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member may discuss only those matters that are relevant to the Estimates providing for the administration of the Commonwealth Health Department. The responsibility for feeding and clothing the people does not rest on that department. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- I regret that the health of the people is regarded so lightly by the Government that it is not prepared to answer the points I have raised. You have ruled, **Mr. Chairman,** that I may not discuss the need for clothing and sheltering the people. We provide hospital accommodation in the Federal Territory for those who fall sick; why should we not take measures to prevent them from becoming ill? Little consideration was paid to the health of those persons who were ejected from the West Maitland camp, and from No. 4 camp in Canberra. Proposed vote agreed to. Department of Commerce *Proposed vote,* £301,900. {: #subdebate-13-0-s49 .speaker-F4U} ##### Mr FORDE:
Capricornia .- I should like to have an explanation from the Minister regarding the activities of the commercial intelligence service. "Will he outline the Government's policy in regard to this organization? The last Government had under consideration the appointment of cadets who would be specially trained to act later as trade representatives in other countries. Australian primary producers, and, indeed, Australian manufacturers in a more limited degree, are dependent on overseas markets for the disposal of their products. The bulk of our produce is at present sent to Great Britain and countries of the old world, but during the last few years there has been marked development in our trade with the East both in primary and secondary products. The exchange position has helped very materially in this connexion. **Mr. H.** W. Gepp, consultant on development to the Commonwealth Government, recently prepared a very fine report on trade between Australia and the East. That report, I understand, has been under consideration by the Department of Commerce, and I should like to hear from the Minister what action the Government intends to take in regard to **Mr. Gepp's** recommendations, among which were the following : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. That official representation of the Commonwealth of Australia should have the early and favorable consideration of the Commonwealth Government on the lines indicated in this report. The representatives of the Commonwealth should be given, the highest status with designation in each case as Commercial Counsellor for the Commonwealth Government. 1. That in 'addition to the permanent representation recommended, a special commercial envoy be sent by the Commonwealth Government to the Far Bast for a period- of six to nine months for the purposes, firstly, of assisting the permanent representatives to become established, and, secondly, of making a close survey of the prospects of Australian trade in the East. **Mr. Gepp,** by a great deal of research and investigation, was able to collect much information which should be most useful to the Department of Commerce in building up an export trade to the East. The figures which he gives showing the development of our export trade with Japan and China are very illuminating. In 1929-30 our export trade with Japan was valued at £6,555,000, and in 1930-31 it was valued at £9,500,000. Our export trade with China was valued at £273,000 in 1929-30, and £3,336,000 in 1930-31. Our total export trade with the Eastern countries was valued at £17,500,000 in 1929-30, and £19,500,000 in 1930-31. **Mr. -Gepp** made special reference to the possibility of -developing a trade in raw materials for the growing secondary industries of China. He drew attention to - >The possibilities of the increased sale of Australian wool as the growth, .of the woollen and worsted manufacturing industry in China proceeded. Doubtless, the development of this industry in China would be accompanied by an increased campaign of selling in the direction of replacing the padded cotton over-garments by the more attractive and suitable woollen garments. He also observed that - >Japan is a country poor in natural resources, and must import enormous quantities of raw and semi-manufactured materials. Japan's importations of wool, cotton, and iron ore are instances of this important economic factor. The Department of Commerce should become increasingly important 'to the Commonwealth. It has not been long in existence as a separate entity, being an offshoot of the Department of Trade and Customs, which for many years conducted the activities for which it is now responsible; but it has great possibilities, for there is very wide scope for its activities. I hope that the new Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart)** will take a keen interest in his department. Nothing is of more importance to Australia to-day than the opening up of overseas markets for her exports, the 'curtailment of imports, and the ' manufacture within her own borders of as much as possible of her own raw materials. "We do a substantial trade with the East in flour, wool, wheat, butter, frozen beef, mutton and lamb, canned fruits, bacon and hams, biscuits, dried fruits, fresh fruits, leather, tallow, and a number of manufactured commodities, and I trust that the Government will give the most careful consideration to the further development of this trade. I should like to hear the Government's intention with regard to the- appointment of trade representatives in the East. From what one can gather, considerable care will need to be exercised in the making of such appointments. Private enterprise has already appointed a number of representatives in Eastern countries, where they are doing valuable work; but there is ample scope for a trade representative of the Commonwealth Government to work, not in the interests of any particular industries or companies, but in the interests of Australian trade and commerce generally. Such an officer would be able to gather a great deal of useful information. Canada has built up a very big trade with the Eastern countries, and has stationed in them quite a number of trade representatives. Our sister dominion, Canada, has a trade commissioner in Central China stationed at Shanghai, and another commissioner with a staff . in South China, stationed at Hong Kong. I understand that a representative of the Canadian Government visited China recently, and subsequently recommended the appointment of a chain of representatives to develop Canadian trade in the Eastern countries. In view of the great importance of this subject, I should like to know what the Government intends to do with the object of developing Australia's Eastern, interests. {: #subdebate-13-0-s50 .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- I also should like some information regarding our commercial intelligence service abroad. Last year, £1,000 was voted for this service, but only £99 was spent. The proposed vote for thi3 year is £1,000. I agree with the honorable member for Capricornia **(Mr. Forde)** that it is desirable that the Government should outline its policy in regard to the appointment of Australian trade representatives in the East. The honorable gentleman made certain references to the trouble which the Canadian Government is taking to explore this market. It seems somewhat absurd that, while we are providing £5,250 this year for trade representation in Canada, that dominion is expending about £40,000 a year in developing her own markets in the East. Australia is seeking to foster a market in Canada, but is completely ignoring a market which the Canadian Government evidently regards as very profitable. I shall not weary honorable members with many figures, for I gave sufficient data of that nature in my budget speech to warrant the serious consideration of the Department of Commerce. In my opinion there is a definite necessity for the establishment of a bureau of commerce. This should naturally follow upon the appointment of trade commissioners. The need for such a bureau was borne out by the experience I had recently when I endeavoured to obtain some figures from the Consul for China, in connexion with the compilation of a general . statement I was preparing in regard to our exports to the Dutch East Indies, China and Japan. I was able to obtain the necessary information from the Consul for Japan and the Consul for the Netherlands, but the only information that the Consul for China could give me was very much out of date. The maritime customs report for 1929 was the latest that I could obtain from him. A report by the former Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Parker Moloney),** gave me much more information, as did the valuable and comprehensive report of the Consultant on Development for the Commonwealth Government **(Mr. H. W. Gepp).** My failure to obtain the information I desired from the Chinese Consul is indicative of the difficulty commercial houses usually encounter in seeking information about markets abroad. If a bureau of commerce were established, it could from time to time make reports for the use of our exporters on the diversity of markets overseas. It will doubtless be admitted that a report for 1929 is not of much help in that direction. The suggestion in **Mr. Gepp's** report that the British Chamber of Commerce could be relied upon to give us certain information does not go far enough. We need more than that. The pushing methods of the Canadian Government should be full of significance to us. In order to build up trade it is necessary to study the psychology of the people with whom we wish to establish trade relations. This is what our Canadian cousins are doing. Not long ago a trade representative who had been touring eastern countries and carrying a lot of Australian goods told me that there was available for us in those countries a valuable market worthy of the closest attention of our commercial houses. It seems to me that the commercial houses of Sydney have not developed a market in the East in secondary products mainly because of a suspicion that it would not be stable and that reliable financial arrangements could not be made. In my opinion, this view is based on an entire misunderstanding of the possibilities of trade with the East. We know very well that the immense population of these countries is not in any way consolidated and that they will not possess, probably for many years to come, the necessary organization to enable their industries to cope successfully with the needs of their home markets. We should take advantage of this state of affairs as other countries are doing. It is remarkable that, although New Zealand, Canada and South Africa have taken full advantage of their new dominion status and made trade agreements with eastern countries, we have so far failed to do so. Yet, strange to say, Australia is doing a remarkable eastern export trade - possibly a bigger trade than any one of the other dominions. I do not know whether for this reason she has been content to rest on her laurels; but in my opinion, the possibilities of developing this trade should immediately be thoroughly explored in the interests of both our primary and our secondary industries. The honorable member for Capricornia made some reference to the training of cadets as trade representatives. I should like to know the intentions of the Government in this regard. Those engaged in commercial activities know the difficulty that besets an agent of a commercial house who has to interview the representatives of overseas commercial houses without being *au fait* with the business methods of the countries in which they are operating. It would probably be , wise for us to exchange cadets with eastern countries so that we could teach the eastern cadets the pushful methods of western salesmanship, and the eastern authorities could instruct our cadets in ways and means of exploiting their markets to the mutual benefit of both countries. {: #subdebate-13-0-s51 .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney -- I wish to bring under the notice of the Government a matter which seems to me to have relation to the marine branch of the Department of Commerce, but which, I confess, affects the. members of the coal-lumpers' organization in my own electorate. For twenty years, coallumpers have performed, in the port of Sydney, the work of trimming bunker coal; but in the last six or eight months, the Dutch, French and Chinese shipping companies have adopted the practice of allowing the members of their coloured crews to undertake this work, with the result that the Australians who have been following this occupation for many years have lost their employment. It may amount to only two or three days a week for each man, but that is of importance these days, and the earnings of these men are seriously prejudiced by the inroads which have been made by Lascars upon their means of living. It might justifiably be argued that the White Australia principle is involved. We should jealously safeguard every aspect of that principle, and insist upon foreign vessels trading with our country observing the conditions which we lay down. The men to whom I refer have been deprived of their employment because these foreign vessels have handed over their coal contracts to mushroom companies. {: .speaker-KZF} ##### Mr Lane: -- Is it not entirely a matter for the State? {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- No. It comes within the ambit of the Navigation Act, because it has an international significance. Therefore, I should like to see joint action taken between the Commonwealth and the State. For some twenty years, the Bellambi branch of Howard Smith and Company Limited supplied these foreign vessels with coal, and observed union conditions when employing coal lumpers. The mushroom companies to which I refer have been able to cut their price by using the coloured crews to trim the bunker coal they supply to these foreign vessels. I sought the co-operation of the Howard Smith company in the matter, but, for business or other reasons, the company did not wish to take public action. I have no right to advance the case on its behalf; I do so on behalf of the men concerned. The trouble is particularly connected with persons resident in my electorate who, with their families, live at Millers Point, Sydney. I hope that, by bringing to bear the powers it possesses under the Navigation Act, the Government will do something to assist these men to regain the employment that has been handed over to Lascars. Then the Howard Smith company would have an opportunity to regain the contract that it held for twenty years and provide work, which would, at least, in a small way, ease the unemployment problem. {: #subdebate-13-0-s52 .speaker-KYH} ##### Mr PRICE:
Boothby .- An amount of £103,066 is provided for administrative costs for the Department of Commerce. In common with many other honorable members, I regard this department as most, important to Australia, particularly insofar as the future is concerned. It is the function of the Department of Commerce to look for trade. Already, we have entered into trade agreements with Canada, and I hope that, in the near future, we shall have similar agreements with New Zealand and South Africa, so that our activities may be on a really Empire basis. In this respect, there is a great field awaiting exploitation. I am sorry that the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Hawker)** saw fit to resign from the position of Minister for Commerce, particularly- at this juncture. He was admirably suited for the position, and his services would have been invaluable to Australia during the months immediately ahead of us. I pay tribute to him for the able way in which he handled his department. The time has arrived when we should appoint a trade commissioner in London. I know that a previous government contemplated making such an appointment, but lack of funds at the time prevented it from doing so. **Mr. Charles** McCann, who was an applicant for the position, was at one time Trade Commissioner in London for South Australia, and later went to the Argentine, where he managed one of the biggest meat works in that country. The Ottawa agreement makes such an appointment particularly necessary, and a trade commissioner in London would have most important work to do concerning our wool, wheat, dried fruits, wine, meat, apple, and other interests. There is tremendous scope in Great Britain for a man of the calibre of **Mr. McCann,** acting in the capacity of a trade commissioner. It will be remembered that that gentleman was mentioned as likely to represent Australia at the Ottawa Conference. He has a wonderful knowledge of the meat and other Australian primary industries, but ultimately he was superseded by **Mr. Angliss.** The matter of salary would be a secondary consideration to **Mr. McCann.** He is a South Australian and a very good Australian who desires to do something for the Commonwealth. I believe that there is big work ahead for a trade commissioner in London, and now is the time to get busy in this direction. {: #subdebate-13-0-s53 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Gippsland .- I wish to draw attention to a splendid example of self-help. At the bottom of page 23S there is the entry " less contribution by Dried Fruits Control Board towards cost of representation in Canada". A few minutes ago the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. E. J. Harrison)** declared that the amount paid for representation in Canada, £5,250, seemed large in comparison with the amount spent elsewhere and the trade possibilities resulting therefrom; and that last year £1,000 was voted for general representation, of which only £99 was spent. One reason why we have representation in Canada is because of the splendid offer made by the Dried Fruits Control Board to provide £2,500 per annum towards the cost. It is an example of self-help on the part of a great industry which might well be followed by other industries, making it much easier, financially, for the Government to provide representation in other parts of the world. {: .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- My point was that while we are spending £5,250 for representation in Canada that dominion is spending £40,000 seeking markets in the East, which we are neglecting. {: .speaker-KNP} ##### Mr Maxwell: -- How does the Dried Fruits Control Board raise that money? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- By imposing levies on the fruit exported. The figures relating to Canadian trade show that the work of the Dried Fruits Control Board in handling our trade and representation in the sister dominion has been remarkably good. When the budget speech was delivered a few weeks ago, 14,500 tons of Australian dried fruits had been shipped to Canada during the present financial year,, compared with a total export of 7,000 tons two years ago, and a mere 700 tons half a dozen years ago. Our dried fruits trade with Canada has grown enormously since the first reciprocal treaty was. arranged with Canada when the late **Mr. Pratten** was Minister for Trade and Customs, when we were given a preference on dried fruits of £14 a ton or1½d. per lb. That agreement was extended by the Scullin Government, and we now have a preference of £18' a ton, which is equal to 2d. per lb., on dried fruits. This has enabled the Australian grower to compete more than successfully with the Californian grower. As the consumption of dried fruits in Australia totals only 12,000 tons, it will be seen that the shipment to Canada of 14,500 tons, up to the date of the making of the budget speech, was quite remarkable. A good deal has been said respecting trade possibilities in the East. Owing to the geographical position of those countries in relation to Australia, I consider that they offer us greater opportunity for expansion than many other parts of the world. "We are advancing rapidly in those markets. {: .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- But no help is being given by the Government. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- Our biggest help at the present time is that given by the natural factor, of exchange, which is performing wonders in enabling us to become established in the Eastern markets in competition with the United States of America, which is on the gold standard. The increase in our trade with the East in the last three years is shown in the budget speech. The figure for 1929-30 was £14,000,000. It rose to £17,800,000 in 1930-31, and for 1931-32 it is estimated at £21,500,000. Considering the fall in prices within the last two years, the increase ' is even more remarkable. {: .speaker-KZZ} ##### Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP -- Do those figures take into account the alterations in the exchange during those years ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- I presume that the figures are in the terms of Australian currency. A more accurate idea of the increase is given by the volume of goods exported from Australia. In wool we have advanced from 859,000 centals in 1929-30 to 1,897,000 centals- more "than twice as much ; in wheat, from 6,000,000 centals to 31,000,000 centals - five times as much; in flour, from 3,500,000 centals to 4,654,000 centals- ^an increase of about 33 per cent. ; and in butter from 121,000 centals to 129,000 centals. {: .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- Those do not approximate closely to the figures reached in 1928. We then lost the market, and are just regaining it. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- The increase since1929-30 is very satisfactory. {: #subdebate-13-0-s54 .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS:
Monaro- Minister for the Interior · Eden · UAP -- I assure the Deputy Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Forde)** and others who have spoken upon Eastern trade, that the matter has received, and is still receiving, the very close attention of the department. The honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Hawker),** during the period that he was Minister for Commerce, devoted a good deal of time and energy to the subject. It is regrettable that he should have seen fit to sever his connexion with the Ministry ; but it is pleasing to know that his efforts were not wasted, and that to-day there is much valuable information in the possession of the department. During the month that I spent in the -department until his successor' was appointed, I came into contact with some of the work that he did; The present Minister **(Mr. Stewart)** also is keeping closely in touch with the matter. There is considerable scope for a well-directed effort, and the information that is available will soon assist us along that road. Meanwhile, the department has not been idle. During the last twelve months the trade figures have increased considerably. A few moments ago the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. E. J. Harrison),** by interjection, alleged that the standard of 1928 had not been reached. That may be so. It must be remembered, however, that trade generally throughout the world has been falling off, and that in the ordinary course our figures should have diminished, instead of which they have increased. We have received some benefit from the rate of exchange, but it has not been altogether beneficial. The other day I received a visit from the Japanese consul in Australia. He pointed out that a much bigger trade -might be . done by his country with Australia, but -that it . is not -possible on account , of the fact . 'that they are buying from us eight times as much as we are . taking from ithern.. He said that Japan would *have* likedtopurchase about 2,000,000 railway sleepers, but ithat ; it could not finance the deal because we have closed our ports to their sports, and there . ar.e no other means of . dealing . with us. That applies also to other nations. CorEespondenc.e is passing -between Australia and the British agents in . the Eastern islands, whp,, I am assured, are roost helpful -to us. They -act for us practically without any charge upon -our Treasury, and they frequently volunteer useful information. Thedepartment has had statistics prepared and distributed as widely as possible. There is anxiety . among traders tp obtainshipping facilities with the East, in spite of the many disadvantages under -which they . suffer. Last year our exports to Japan increased . by no less a sura than '£2;i'58,000, the Chinese trade by £1,496,000, the trade tp Hong Kong by £25t,000, to the Philippines by £14,00.0, and tp British Malaya by £98,000. ' {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The whole of the increase was in wheat and wool. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -A good deal of it consisted of wheat and wool, but there was also a substantial volume of dairy produce. Thpse are our three principal export items. Under existing circum stances we cannot hope tp do much in thewayof exporting secondary products. It is pleasing to npte that, although markets may be closed to us elsewhere, as they have . been to a certain extent in Italy, Prance,and other European countries, there are countries nearer home that are willing tp trade with us. I intended to reply tp the honorable member for Wentworth in connexion with o.ur . expenditure of £5,200 in Canada, winch appears large in proportion to what we are spending in the East; but the honorable member for Gippsland **(Mr. Paterson)** has already explained that, of the expenditure in Canada, £2,500 is paid by the Bried Fruits Export Control Board. A wonderful trade has been built up. As the honorable member for Gippsland pointed out, we actually export to Canada more dried fruits thatwe ourselves consume. In Canada we have departed from the system usually . adopted in . connexion with -our -trade . abroad, in that w.e have a Trade Commissioner there. The Minister -for Trade and . Customs **(Mr.. Giillett)** was somewhat . averse to the idea when the . appointment was made, hut his visit to Canada convinced him that JMr. McGregor had performed very valuable work. The honorable -member for Boothby **(Mr, Price)** . has stressed the radvisability pf . appointing a Trade iComimissioner in -London, That matter -is receiving consideration. Delay has been occasioned by the fact that, while the honorable . member -for Wakefield was Minister, the greater pajrt of his time . was taken up in preparing our -ease for Ottawa. The present Minister has the matter in . hand. . 1 agree with the . honorable -member for Bootlhby that it would be . advantageous to Australia to have a Trade Commissioner in London, and . that -the increased trade that will result -from the . operation of the Ottawa agreement will make . such an appointment . even more necessary than it is . at the present time. I do -not think that I need say anything in reply to the observations of tiho honorable 'member for Gippsland. He has : a wonderful grasp of the work that is being carried . out by the department, and a keen appreciation of the . objects at which it is aiming. Mr.HOLLOWAY (Melbourne Ports) [10.11]. - -I wish merely to draw attention to the danger of attempting to economize in the marine branch of the department, which . deals with the mapping.out of the thousands of miles -of . our coast-line, and the provision of -beacons and lighthouses. Probably np other country has a longer coast line than ours, unless it be the United States of America with the inclusion of Alaska. Around our . coast line, according to experts that have visited us from other countries, the marine branch of this department has done wonderful work in the direction of making safe ocean transport from abroad, as well as intranstate and interstate water transport. It is said that the mapping out and charting are equal tp if not better than, what has been dene in this direction by the marine branch of any other country. Two or three lighthouse vessels are employed, and they have very small crews; yet, under this budget, the strength has been lowered by fourteen officers and men. I know something of the work that has to be done. A number of the lights around our coast are attended manually, while others are mechanically operated. The latter have to be inspected regularly, no matter what may be the state of the weather. Every one knows that certain portions of our. coast line are exceedingly rough and dangerous. If the mechanically-adjusted beacons are left unattended for too long, they become obscured by the dirt which is deposited on them. Has this aspect been noticed by the Minister? If not, will he consider the probable extreme danger of practising economy in this branch? It is difficult to maintain lighthouse vessels in a proper state of repair, and the shortage of finance puts out of the question the purchase of new vessels. Some honorable members who have sat on the Public Works Committee know how difficult, dangerous, and responsible this work is. Any slackness will cause interference with the whole of the trade and commerce to and from this country. I strike this warning note in the hope that the Minister will look into the matter and see if the reduction of the number of persons employed may not seriously endanger the safety of vessels coming to or going from our ports. {: #subdebate-13-0-s55 .speaker-KIU} ##### Mr HUTCHIN:
Denison .- Apropos of trade development with the East, I am glad to say that for a number of years now, Tasmania has been doing a considerable volume of business in canned fruits and base metals. It is very gratifying to know that, as regards the latter, the industry is so efficient that we are able to meet competition from other countries, and now practically have command of the Eastern market for zinc and lead. Arising out of that trade a couple of Eastern steamships trade to Tasmania at monthly intervals. Following representation made to him, the former Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Hawker)** authorized the issue of permits to these vessels to engage in the passenger trade between the mainland and Tasmania during the off-season and after the last coastal steamer has made the run. This year four or five permits have been issued from the 2nd April to these Eastern passenger vessels, enabling them to carry passengers to and from Tasmanian ports and the mainland. Had those permits not been issued this year, the chronically isolated position of Hobart in this particular portion of each year would have recurred; so on behalf of the people of Southern Tasmania I offer our best thanks to the Minister and the department for tho concession granted. I sincerely trust that the precedent thus established will be followed by the present Minister. If I were permitted, I could also suggest an amendment of the Navigation Act to give much more relief than i3 possible by administrative action, but as I should not be in order in so doing at this stage, I shall not press the matter. I hope, however, to have an opportunity to do it in the near future. {: #subdebate-13-0-s56 .speaker-KYX} ##### Mr RILEY:
Cook .- I should like some further information with regard to the item, " General representation, £1,000 ". Presumably, this refers to trade representation in the East. I should like to know if the Government really means business, and what it proposes to do this year. The Minister for the Interior **(Mr. Perkins)** has just informed the committee that the matter engaged the attention of the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Hawker)** when he was Minister for Commerce, that he himself had also considered it, and that action was now contemplated by the present Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart).** It is regrettable that, although this important subject has been receiving consideration for some considerable time, nothing has yet been done. Last year £1,000 was placed on the Estimates, but only £99 was expended. I believe that applications were invited from persons qualified to act as trade representatives in the East, but that no subsequent action was taken by the Government. There should be no further delay. Over a period of many years we have received a number of reports, all of which have stressed the possibilities of trade with- Eastern countries, which offer a natural market for our surplus products; but nothing definite has been done so far. The representative appointed should be a good commercial man, and he should be accompanied by an Australian-born Chinese who knows the language and habits of the people. The advisability of appointing a trade representative in London has been mentioned by the honorable member for Boothby **(Mr. Price).** I regard such an appointment as of great importance to this country. It would be much better to have a good commercial man in London,actively engaged in opening up business relationships for Australian exporters, than to contemplate the reappointment of some of those military representatives who occupied positions at Australia House a few years ago. I hope that the Government will take immediate steps to appoint trade representatives in the East and also in London, so as to widen the avenues for the marketing of our surplus primary products. Another matter to which I direct attention is the need for installing wireless transmitting and receiving sets on vessels engaged in intra-state trade. Some years ago the late **Mr. Pratten,** who was then Minister for Trade and Customs, gave favorable consideration to this proposal, but, unfortunately, all the States were not prepared to hand over to the Commonwealth control of intrastate vessels, so it was not possible to compel owners of such ships to install wireless sets. Since this matter was first mentioned some, years ago, several small coastal vessels and colliers have met with disaster, and because they were not equipped with wireless, there has been heavy loss of life. As the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers is still in session in Melbourne, and as the deliberations will probably continue over this week, I urge the Minister to bring this matter under the notice of the Prime Minister, with a view to enlisting the co-operation of the various State Premiers. {: #subdebate-13-0-s57 .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS:
Monaro- Minister for the Interior · Eden · UAP -- The honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Beasley)** has brought under notice the practice of oversea steamship owners with Lascar crews utilizing their services for the loading of bunker coal at Australian ports. It is doubtful if under the Navigation Act we can deal with that matter, but I shall refer the point raised to the Crown Law authorities and see what power the Government has to take the necessary action. The Government is in full sympathy with the honorable member for West Sydney and believes in providing employment for our own people whereever possible ; but, as I have explained, it is doubtful that we have the power to do as he suggests. We contemplate introducing amendments to the Navigation Act shortly. It may then be possible to provide for the necessary authority. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports **(Mr. Holloway)** directed attention to reduced expenditure in connexion with lighthouse services. I can assure him that there has been no reduction of the actual staffs at lighthouses except at those places where the light services have been converted from manual to the automatic system. {: .speaker-KHL} ##### Mr Holloway: -- I am informed that three firemen have been taken off one of the vessels. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- I understand that the only reductions made are in respect of overhead charges. Our coast line is now lighted better than it has ever been, so there is no cause for alarm. I can assure the honorable member for Cook **(Mr. Riley)** that the Government is considering the appointment of trade representatives to the East, 'with the very definite object of taking the necessary action, but we have first to decide to what ports the men selected will be sent. It may be advisable, before a decision is reached, to convene a conference of those who are directly interested in the Eastern trade with a- view to getting helpful suggestions. The present Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart)** is fully seised of the importance of developing our trade relations with the East and is giving the matter very close attention. {: #subdebate-13-0-s58 .speaker-KK7} ##### Mr JENNINGS:
South Sydney -- I am glad to hear from the Minister **(Mr. Perkins)** that the Government intends to take action at an early date to appoint trade representatives in the East. This question is one of the most important that this Parliament can discuss. By developing Eastern trade, we can see an outlet for our production, and, incidentally, a relief of our unemployment problem. The Minister has referred to the trade balance between China and Australia and has told us that it is largely in our favour. The United States of America is in much the same position, and, notwithstanding its high tariff policy, is actively engaged in pushing its trade in Eastern countries. One important matter which should not be overlooked is the advisability of appointing a representative with a knowledge of the native language. To do otherwise would be analogous to having in Australia foreign trade representatives unable to speak our language. I trust that this point will be borne in mind by the Government when making the appointments. {: #subdebate-13-0-s59 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- [ desire to bring under the notice of honorable members the excellent report prepared by **Mr. H.** W. Gepp dealing with the possibilities of Eastern trade developments. I understand that arrangements have been made to print only 100 copies of the report, and in view of its importance, I suggest that a much larger number should be provided. There will be a big demand for it from members of chambers of manufactures and commerce throughout the Commonwealth, and it should also be found in all public libraries. The difference between the cost of printing 100 and 500 copies would be comparatively small. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr Perkins: -- They are merely roneoed copies. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The proposal for the appointment of a trade commissioner in the East is fairly sound, but we cannot expect too much under such a scheme unless those who wish to trade in wheat, wool, flour and other commodities are introduced by the trade commissioner to the Chinese merchants. I have visited China on three occasions, and in one instance at least was instrumental in establishing trade relations between that country and Australia. The -Chinese are a very keen race, and I have some knowledge of their pyschology. In contradistinction to a neighbouring people whom I am not in any way particularizing, the Chinese are absolutely fair. As honorable members are aware Britain's trade was established with Hong Kong 70 or 80 years ago by what may be termed the old school of British traders. When those traders were negotiating with Chinese merchants either to sell or to purchase goods, there seldom was any written document in the form of an agreement. As a rule both parties met at a dinner, and in the true Oriental style,' haggled over prices to ' be paid or accepted, possibly while the sake was doing its work. But all undertakings were oral. The Chinese never repudiate such an undertaking. It was largely that practice which enabled Britain to establish such strong connexions in the East. It must be remembered, however, that the Britisher regards himself as being in a class apart from the Chinaman with whom he wishes to trade, and treats him as if he were inferior clay. Should a white man marry a Chinese woman he loses the respect of his fellow countrymen, and is tabooed for reasons which I need not justify. But prior to the outbreak of the war the Germans introduced entirely different methods of establishing trade relations with the East, instead of following the British practice of working with the assistance of a comprador. The latter is a go-between who works for a remuneration and, therefore, looks for his cumshaw or squeeze. There is usually what is termed a " squeeze " in everything. This man expects to get his rake-off. Just before the war the Ger-' mans arranged to "send -their travellers to a university at Hong Kong, where they could acquire a knowledge of the fourteen dialects which are spoken in different parts of China. There are fourteen provinces in China with as many different dialects, and the people in those areas cannot communicate with the people of any other area, except through the medium of the mandarin language, which is written, and is fairly complicated. The young German travellers who attended the university established at Hong Kong by Great Britain acquired a knowledge of at least one of the provincial dialects to enable them to discuss trade matters freely with possible buyers of German goods, and but for the intervention of the war, the Britisher would, in this way, have been deprived of many of his markets. In this connexion we should remember the disastrous results which followed the appointment of **Mr. Sheaf.** I believe, however, that it should not be impossible to select a suitable trade representative to bring Australian primary products under the notice of Eastern buyers. {: .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- A man of the type of " Chinese " Morrison. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Yes ; owing to trouble between the different provinces, corruption and the alternating ascendency of various war-lords, China appears to be on the verge, of bankruptcy. It is amazing that she is in a position to trade at all. Although large numbers of her people are on the verge of starvation, she, nevertheless, continues to do a fairly large trade with other countries. But during the last few years, our trade with the East has not appreciably increased, except in regard to wool and wheat. Our butter exports have remained almost stationary. The Minister has stated that in 1929-30, our exports increased from £10,000,000 to £14,000,000, and two years later to £17,000,000, but an examination of the figures discloses that the increase has been due almost entirely to greater exports of wool and wheat. We have also to remember that lower prices have provailed. I have visited Java five times ; my first visit , was in 1907. The Javanese .use Australian flour and butter almost exclusively, and to-day, excellent bread is being made in Java, while Australian butter of excellent quality in boxes is kept in refrigerating chambers. But, unfortunately, Java is exporting to Australia four or five times as much as we are sending to Java. It is, for instance, sending us enormous quantities of tea which previously came from Ceylon and India. It is unfortunate from our point of view that we cannot obtain larger supplies of tea from China instead of from Java. The Chinese are good people with whom to trade; they are keen but always fair.. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr Thorby: -- But they prefer to pay with goods. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Yes. **Mr. Gepp's** report shows that there is, on the part of the Chinese, a keen desire to trade with Australia. They do not impose exacting conditions as do the Japanese. Any one who read the letter circulated by a certain Japanese society will realize that the object of the Japanese is " Two for you -two and two for me too," which is the mon key's method of dividing four nuts fairly among three. The Japanese merchants seek to impose ridiculous conditions ; they would be regarded as impertinent by Britishers trading with one another. The Japanese manufacturers must US( our wool unless they can obtain sufficient supplies from South Africa. Our trade with Japan in silk is on a liberal scale. If the Chinese people would abandon internecine strife, the possibilities of trade with them would be extensive. Much of the trouble is due to the adoption of a form of government which the people do not understand. Sun Yat Sen, through whose efforts China became a republic, was an. idealist. Ancestor worship is an innate characteristic of the Chinese people. It has always been a dominating feature in their daily lives. They regarded their Emperor as their father. Now he is no longer there. Our trade with Malaya could be considerably improved. There is a large number of Britishers in that country whose conditions of living are similar to our own. The difficulties confronting the Malayans at present are due largely to the low prices prevailing for tin and rubber. When I visited Kuala Lumpur, the centre of a tin-producing district, a race-meeting was in progress - the people are very keen on horse racing, and some of the race-meetings extend over three days - but, on this occasion, the patrons having lost five thousand dollars on the first day of the races decided to abandon the meeting. It surprises Australians visiting Java to find that goods which can be obtained in Australia are shipped from California. When I was in Java I asked for a tin of Australian tinned corn beef, believing that it would be readily obtainable seeing that the Wyndham Meat Works are only a three days' steam from Java. I purchased a tin of beef, but was surprised to find that it was manufactured by The Argentine Estates of Bovril Limited. On the tin which I now hold it is stated that - >This corned beef is manufactured by the Argentine Estates of Bovril Limited at their factories, Santa Riena, Argentina. The cattle ranches belonging to the Bovril companies cover over 9,000,000 acres on which are pastured hundreds of .thousands of cattle. Inspected and passed by the Argentine Department of Agriculture. Because of our large imports from the Dutch East Indies we should be able to get a reciprocal trade advantage there, and we might also improve our prospects in China by purchasing in that country a portion of the large quantity of tea now being imported from Java. An incident related to me illustrates the manner in which our business men " miss the bus ". The climate in the Malayan Peninsula promotes thirst; the Englishmen there are very well paid and spend a good deal of their time in clubs. One hotel proprietor decided to give Australian ale a trial, and his customers were much impressed by a small consignment from Reach's brewery, Sydney. A demand for this ale was created, but the hotel proprietor complained that, although it was several months since he had written for further supplies, he had failed to get them. Many Australian business firms are almost as conservative as our English forbears in insisting that buyers shall take what we choose to give them, instead of studying and catering for the requirements of the buyers. I have had an opportunity to check a semiconfidential report by **Mr. Gepp,** on a particular phase of Australian trade with the Orient, of which I gained some knowledge while I was in China. I was astonished at the remarkable grip which **Mr. Gepp** had obtained of the subject during his ten weeks in that country. The report was proof of great industry on his part. Although I have no desire to interfere in the Government's responsibility to appoint a suitable trade commissioner in the East, I may be permitted to suggest that if the Government is seeking a " live wire " who will introduce Australian mercantile representatives in the right quarters, **Mr. Gepp** is not unfitted for the job. But unless our exporters seek the business for themselves, relying upon the trade commissioner only to put them in touch with buyers, we cannot expect to extend our trade very rapidly. The possibilities of trade are there, but we shall have to fight for it, for although we are closer to the market than America, we have to meet keen competition from that country. {: #subdebate-13-0-s60 .speaker-JPP} ##### Mr BLACKLOW:
Franklin -- The expenditure on the Department of Commerce is proving well worth while. I propose to discuss, not so much the overseas markets, but how the activities of the department can help in Australia, particularly Tasmania. The honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Hawker)** is to be commended for the services he rendered to the primary producers of that State while he was controlling the department. The officers also are courteous and attentive, and ready at all times to make available useful information. I am indebted to them for the assistance they gave to us when we were organizing and developing the primary industry bureaux in Tasmania. Generally, the Department of Commerce has earned the gratitude of the Australian people. It makes available to various bureaux and marketing organizations, information that is of- the greatest value in developing orderly marketing overseas, without which wc cannot hope for success. One essential to the development of the export trade is the regular supply of goods in accordance with the absorptive capacity of the markets. Suppliers should avoid causing a glut at one time, and a dearth at another. I am afraid that intermittency of supply has been a too common fault in the past, and has been detrimental to Australian trade. For instance, Tasmania this year shipped upwards of 3,000,000 cases of apples to the United Kingdom. But, unfortunately, there seems to be no means of securing regularity in the arrival of the consignments at their destinations. Some of the ships are fast, and others are slow, and, possibly 1,000,000 cases will be landed within ten or twelve days, and no more for some weeks. The consequence is that the market is over-supplied one week and , short the next. Much benefit would be derived from the organization of marketing boards in Australia. Tasmania, being a small State, lends itself to organization, and during the last few years we have developed advisory marketing boards which have given excellent results. The principal difficulty is in financing them. The requisite money cannot be raised by voluntary levies, and I have suggested to the Department of Commerce that it should assist those boards by charging an inspection fee. That is done in. con.- nexion with the export of fruit, the proceeds being applied to advertising abroad. Unless we organize locally, we cannot be sure that our goods will be properly produced, graded and packed for the foreign market. To this phase Australia must pay a great deal more attention than it has in the past. During the present season 900,000 cases of fruit were shipped from Hobart by five ships that were poorly equipped. The refrigerating plant was not as efficient as it should have been, the ventilation was inadequate, and some of the vessels had no thermoscopes for detecting the presence of bad gases that seriously affect fruit. Because these vessels delivered their cargoes in poor condition, the growers, and incidentally the Commonwealth, suffered enormous losses. The Department of Commerce should investigate this matter with a view to preventing ships which are not properly equipped from carrying fruit or other perishable products. But it is within Australia primarily that we must develop our marketing organization. We cannot expect to conquer the markets abroad unless we pay complete attention to production, grading and packing. I hope that the department will take note of the few hints I have given; if it acts upon them it will deserve and receive the appreciation of the primary producers of Tasmania. {: #subdebate-13-0-s61 .speaker-KNT} ##### Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP -- I .too, congratulate the Department of Commerce on the interest it has shown in the trade in some of the smaller and less known exportable products. Apart from mutton and lamb, the Bendigo district is particularly concerned in the export of eggs, and the department has been at special pains to help this industry with advice and practical assistance. The egg trade of Australia has now reached enormous dimensions. Last year 9,500,000 dozen eggs were exported, and the indications are that in the present season the overseas trade will exceed 16,000,000 dozen. Unquestionably the Australian egg. is of exceptional quality. It is produced under hygienic conditions from sound stock that shows the benefit, of a favorable climate and careful feeding, and it compares favorably with the product of any other country. There is an immense market overseas which the Australian egg exporter has not yet touched. It is estimated that annually 550,000,000 dozen eggs are used in the United Kingdom for table purposes only; of that quantity 260,000,000 dozen are produced there and the balance are imported. We have now an opportunity to gain a large proportion of that trade, especially if we take advantage of the Ottawa agreement, under which we have a preference of 3 s. to ls. 9d. a great hundred, according to weight, which represents about lid. per dozen. But we shall not obtain that trade unless we exercise the most careful supervision. The first time we' fall down on the job of inspecting shipments, we shall lose our overseas market. The Australian egg has now a good name and we must not export any eggs which are not of the required standard size. Smaller egg3 and others which may be perfectly fresh but may have some slight blemish which only the expert can detect, can be turned into egg pulp, a commodity which finds a ready sale in the British market. Last year, China exported 36,500 tons of egg pulp to the United Kingdom. That figure is astounding, but China has had that trade for a number of years and is exporting egg pulp under the most hygienic conditions. There are, in this country, a few egg-pulping plants, but last year some of them sent overseas a product that should not have borne the description " Australian ". As a result of that, the department is now insisting upon a rigid inspection. The pulp which was decried last year was not properly chilled, and contained chaff, egg shell, and one or two other foreign substances, the inclusion of which was entirely the fault of the producer, whose only aim was a quick profit regardless of the detrimental effect his action might have on this growing Australian industry. I am glad to say that we have in Australia at least one plant capable of turning out an immense quantity of egg pulp, which will stand comparison with any similar plant in the world. The egg industry should be fostered, because it suits the small man." The capital required is not great ana the labour required,- although strenuous, can be undertaken even by a man whose health is impaired. We have not taken sufficient steps overseas to advertise the good quality of our product which, if the inspection is not relaxed, can withstand any competition it is likely to experience overseas, and it seems to me that some further effort should be made to boost it. I urge the department to insist upon rigid inspections. There is the possibility of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research assisting the Department of Commerce to some extent by research work. The mere washing of an egg takes away its waterproof coating and probably causes it to be landed in England with from 25 per cent, to 30 per cent, of its contents evaporated. It is possible that, if we can induce the council to carry out research work, it will discover something to take the place of the natural waterproof coating of the egg. My suggestion is not an idle one, because a large percentage of eggs, which have a touch of dirt or mud on them, are known as "soiled" eggs. Under the present regulations eggs for export may not be washed, otherwise they would lose weight during the voyage. Therefore, an egg producer loses a large percentage of his eggs through his inability to have them washed and placed before the inspectors in a suitable condition for ' export. If my suggestion can be carried out, it will confer a great benefit upon the smaller poultry farmers. {: #subdebate-13-0-s62 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter .- In the interest of the trade of this country, we should give every assistance to our own shipping companies, which are experiencing keen competition from a heavily subsidized American shipping line known as the Matson Line of Steamers which is undoubtedly out to capture the Pacific trade of Australia. In this respect wo should co-operate with New Zealand, Fiji and other British dependencies close to Australia. The Union Shipping Company and the Huddart Parker Line have pioneered the Pacific trade, and they are now meeting with this unfair competition. The Commonwealth Government should take the gloves off and show that it is prepared to fight in the interests of .the Australian shipping companies and their employees. .The Matson Line consists of luxurious, liners of . 20,000 tons capable of steaming 20 knots an hour. They are said to be fitted as auxiliary cruisers and manned by naval reserves,and are consequently heavily subsidized by the Government of the United States of America out of the profits it made during the war. Indeed, that Government contributed to the initial cost of these vessels 18,000,000 dollars, which amount is approximately 75 per cent, of their total, cost. The company pays only 3 per cent, on its borrowed capital. In addition, it receives a subsidy of ten dollars per outward mile. As the outward journey to Australia is approximately 7,500 miles, we can assume that a subsidy of 75,000 dollars is paid to the company for each trip. It is impossible for the Union Shipping Company and the Huddart Parker Line to compete successfully with such lavishly subsidized privateers. Furthermore, the Government of the United States of America will not allow foreign vessels to participate in, coastal trading. It has even declared Hawaii, which is about 2,100 miles from the mainland, to be a coastal port so as to prevent foreign vessels from trading between there and the mainland, although for American shipping, it is a foreign port. That, of course, has a direct bearing on the subsidy paid to the Matson Line on the outward journey. The Government of the United States of America is prepared to go to any length to assist and encourage its own shipping companies to capture foreign trade. It is time that Australia gave more protection to its own shipping companies. According to **Mr. Raeburn,** the secretary of the Seamen's Union, there are 2,000 unemployed seamen in the ports of Sydney and Newcastle. If the American combine is given a free hand in Australian waters, our vessels will soon cease running, and when that takes place, the ranks of the unemployed will be increased, and in all probability freights, with which our primary producers are vitally concerned, will rapidly rise. {: .speaker-KCH} ##### Mr Dennis: -- What remedy does the honorable member suggest? {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- There should be an arrangement between Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, and other British dependencies in the- Pacific to boycott the Matson Line of ' Steamers. The United States of America is boycotting the goods of other countries, and Australia itself is suffering considerably because of its adverse trade balance with that country. For 1929-30, it amounted to over £25,000,000, imports from the United States of America in that year amounting to £30,316,208, and exports to £5,233,000. Last year, our imports from that country amounted to £11,400,000, and exports to £2,930,000, an adverse balance of trade of £8,470,000. The policy of that country is " America first, America second, and if there is anything left, America again." It is our duty, as Australians, to protect Australian industries. We should not be sodependent on the United States of America for petrol and oil, or even motor cars. I have endeavoured to get the Government to investigate the possibilities of obtaining oil from shale and coal, in order that this country may become more selfreliant. We must do something to correct our adverse trade balance with other countries, particularly the United States of America. The Huddart Parker Company and the Union Shipping Company have distributed £300,000 in Australian ports. These companies give direct employment to 1,400 men as well as indirect employment to orchardists, wheatgrowers, and others in victualling their vessels; also to dock workers, engineers, and others. On the other hand, even the repairs to American ships are effected in their own dockyards, and what perishable goods they buy in Australia, if not consumed before they reach American waters, are flung overboard. It is a requirement of the American law that all products consumed by vessels in American waters must be produced in America. We should develop an Australian mercantile marine. It is nationally imperative that our own countrymen be not driven from the seas by unfair competition. If we permit that to be done, unemployment will greatly increase. {: #subdebate-13-0-s63 .speaker-KYZ} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Riordan:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND -- Order! The honorable member must not discuss unemployment in connexion with this item. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- If we do something along the lines I have indicated, the Department of Commerce will become an even more valuable department than it now is. {: #subdebate-13-0-s64 .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr STACEY:
Adelaide .- The cost of the lighthouse service in South Australia has been reduced during the last twelve months by the action of the Government in arranging for supplies for Kangaroo. Island lighthouses being taken from Port Adelaide to Kingscote by steamer, and thence overland to the lighthouses. Sometime ago, I indicated a direction in which further savings could be effected. One contractor on Kangaroo Island, who is paid £1,500 per annum by the Commonwealth, has expressed his willingness to take a. contract for. a long period at £500 per annum if the Government will spend £2,000 on the formation of roads on the island. The existing roads are bad. Under his proposal, the £2,000 would be covered in two years, and thereafter the Commonwealth would obtain the same service as previously at a greatly reduced cost. Unemployed labour could be employed on this work. I should be glad to know whether anything, has been done to give effect to my suggestion. {: #subdebate-13-0-s65 .speaker-K4X} ##### Mr NOCK:
Riverina .- The Department of Commerce is one of the most important departments of the Commonwealth, because it deals with the marketing of Australia's products. The step taken some time ago to appoint a trade commissioner in Canada was a wise one, but since the amount on the Estimates this year - £3,916 - is practically the same as the vote for last year, it would appear that the Government does not intend to appoint trade commissioners in other countries. Like other honorable members, I believe that there is soope for extended trade in othercountries. We should regard the teeming millions of the East as prospective buyers of many of our primary products. During recent years, large quantities of our wheat have been disposed of in China and Japan. Those countries are using our wool and wheat; they should also buy our fruit and our meat. We may also be ableto persuade them to absorb some of the surplus millions of Australian sheep if we can supply the carcasses at sufficiently attractive prices. Our surplus flocks constitute a danger. Should another drought come before there is a rise in the prices of lambs and mutton, the owners of our sheep, which now total nearly 115,000,000, will be hard hit. I hope that the Government will take prompt steps to have Australia directly represented in the East. Good work has been done by the British representative there, but the time is ripe for Australia to have her own direct representative in the East. A good deal more can be done to standardize our export products. I look to the Federal Government and the Department of Commerce to take action in this direction. Mention has been made of the export of eggs. The export of eggs from Australia is no innovation, for as far back as 25 years ago I exported eggs to England. Unfortunately, the return was not great; but to-day there is a prospect of developing that trade to the benefit of Australia. An examination of the market reports shows that Australian lambs generally bring lower prices than lambs from New Zealand; similarly, New South "Wales lambs sell for less than those from Victoria. Action should be taken to estab.lish a No. 1 Standard grade for the whole of Australia. so that whether a shipment came from "Western Australian ports, or from Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane, No. 1 quality would be the same. The price should also be the same. A good deal can be done in that direction. Notwithstanding that New South Wales lambs contain a fair proportion of merinos, large numbers of lambs from that State are equal in quality to anything from .New Zealand or Victoria. It would be well if the Department of Commerce were to institute a system under which all Australian lambs would be sold on grade. There should also be greater standardization in connexion with wheat. Until the Australian crop has been reaped, no one in England can say what the standard of the new season's grain will be, because every State has its own f.a.q. standard. There should be two grades of wheat - No. 1 and No. 2 - so that the buyers on the other side of the world could depend on the quality being the same in all cases. I do not advocate as many grades as there are in Canada. Honesty and confidence are essential to the maintenance of trade, and if those who buy Australian products can be assured of the quality of the goods they purchase, nothing is more certain than that that confidence will benefit Australian industries, both primary , and secondary, if manufacturers, as well as primary producers, seek to capture markets in other countries. Honorable members may recollect that a few years ago a large quantity of Australian firstgrade butter was sold in . England as a Danish butter. That should not be possible. The Department of Commerce could render good service by investigating the possibility of establishing new markets, and by appointing in the East a direct representative of Australia, who would, come into direct contact with buyers there. I feel sure that if that were done we should receive better prices for our products. {: #subdebate-13-0-s66 .speaker-KIX} ##### Mr HUTCHINSON:
Indi .- Like other honorable members, I believe that there is room for improvement in our trade with the Eastern countries. It appears certain that in the days ahead there will have to be au exodus from our, cities to our country districts, resulting in a stimulus to primary production; but already the problem of finding markets for our products has arisen; as we look around the world we find market after market closed to us by tariff barriers and the development of local industries in other countries. The bright spot on the horizon is the possibility of developing our trade with Eastern countries. It. is high time that the Commonwealth Government took definite action in the direction of providing efficient representation of Australia in the East, in order to foster the promising markets there for our exportable products. The budget figures show that our total exports to the East increased in value from £14,000,000 in 1929-30, to £21,000,000 in 1930-32;" but we were merely making up leeway. Until about 1928, our trade with the East was steadily increasing, but in that year it fell away, probably owing to markets being found elsewhere. .Our exporters should recognize the importance of fostering the Eastern markets, because in the future we may have to depend upon them to a much larger extent than we have in the past. Canada does not neglect those markets. To regulate its relations with Eastern countries, it maintains at Tokio a minister who receives instructions direct from Ottawa. His duties are essentially of a diplomatic nature. To obtain for Canadian products a privileged reception in Japan, Canada has subscribed to the Anglo- Japanese treaty, and in doing so, has entered into a reciprocal most-favoured nation agreement, with Japan. Compared with Canada, Australia is spending practically nothing in encouraging trade with the East. Although in the years 1930 and 1931 our trade with China and Japan was worth double that of Canada, we seem to bc making no decided effort to foster this market. Our exporters should pay attention primarily to the export of commodities of first quality, and a high standard should be consistently maintained. Particular attention should be given to the packing and labelling of goods, and the requirements of Eastern markets generally should be carefully studied. There should be a continuity of supplies, together with efficient and extensive advertising. These are matters in which the Department of Commerce should be able to give valuable assistance. For some time past Australian exporters seem to have laboured under the erroneous impression that anything is good enough for Chinese and Japanese consumers. Goods of high quality should be supplied, and by paying proper attention to the. special requirements of this market, our trade could be greatly increased. The banking facilities afforded in regard to Eastern, trade are of great importance to the exporting interests. I understand that Australian hanks do not deal in Eastern currencies, and that it is impossible for buyers in the East to obtain Australian forward exchange, negotiations being usually conducted by buying sterling. The banks play a part of paramount importance in connexion with the extension1 of Eastern trade, and the Department of Commerce could render a valuable service by trying to induce the Commonwealth Bank to establish an Eastern exchange department. We should appoint a trade commissioner at Shanghai, and assistant commissioners in other parts of China. It might prove desirable to have a commissioner at Tokio also. The Department of Commerce should do all that lies in its power to improve our trade relations with Eastern countries, because the extent to which, this trade i3 increased will have an important bearing upon our national prosperity. {: #subdebate-13-0-s67 .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy .- I noticed in to-day's press that the price of meat in London has fallen, and it is said that this will adversely affect the Australian meat trade. The cattle producer of this country has experienced lean times since 191S owing to low prices, drought and other disabilities. The wool industry, too, is at a low ebb, and every effort should be made to increase our trade with the East by encouraging the consumption of Australian meat there. The Japanese have been keen buyers of our wool in the last few seasons, and their presence on the Australian market has helped us considerably. **Mr. G-epp's** report shows that there has been a falling off in the quantity of meat exported from Australia to the East in the last few years. Between the years 1928-29 and 1931-32, these exports fell to the extent of 63,000 centals, and the falling off in their value between 1928-29 and 1930-31 was over £100,000. There must be a good reason why this trade with such countries as Japan, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Ceylon has been lost. Has the Department of Commerce endeavoured to discover the reason for it? **Mr. McGregor** did good work as our trade representative in Canada, and the fruit industry benefited as a result. It is particularly necessary to study the requirements of the Chinese markets, and to foster carefully our trade with the East generally. We should see that suitable shops are established in important centres in the East for the adequate display of Australian meat. It is not sufficient to exhibit meat packed in tins; the tins should be opened, and the contents displayed. On one occasion, the Queensland Meat- Exporters Association sent to China a quantity of tinned meat from' Rockhampton. The label on the tins depicted the horns and head of a bullock; but that label did not appeal to the Chinese consumers. I suggest that Chinese might well be employed in their own country for the purpose of displaying our meat in such a way as to attract Chinese consumers. I believe that they could be induced to buy a large quantity of Australian meat, because the Chinese who live in Australia have become regular meat eaters, despite the fact that most of them have small incomes. The cause of the falling off in our trade in frozen mutton should be investigated by the department. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- There has been a big drop in the price. {: .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN: -- In 1928-39, the quantity exported was 27,125 centals, and in 1930-31, the exports totalled only 22,573 centals. The Eastern markets are so close to Australia that we should make every effort to cater for them. *Sitting suspended from11.45 p.m. to 12.15 a.m. (Friday).* *Friday, 28 October 1932. [Quorum formed.']* {: .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN: -- The representatives of a meat exporting company in Brisbane informed me recently that Australia's meat trade with Papua and the Mandated Territory of New Guinea had fallen off. People residing in those areas had experienced difficulty in obtaining Australian meat, the market being supplied chiefly from the Argentine. We should take steps to ensure that the meat sold in Papua and New Guinea is the product of Australia. The taxpayers here are responsible for the cost of administering those territories, and we should see that those who foot the bill are enabled to supply the market. We are subsidizing shipping services to the territory, and if we encouraged their trade with Australia, freight would be provided for the ships. I hope the Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart)** will check the statement of the Brisbane meat exporting firm, and, if it is found to be true, will take steps to remedy the position. The Department of Commerce is a new one, but it is capable of rendering valuable service to the country. The producersof mutton and beef can help themselves by making suggestions to the department. **Mr. Gepp's** report on our trade with the East is a valuable document, and, instead of being merely filed away, his recommendations should be acted upon. {: #subdebate-13-0-s68 .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr COLLINS:
Hume .I, too, recognize the importance of the Department of Commerce to Australia, especially in promoting trade with Eastern countries. I desire to stress the importance of developing our tinned fruit trade with India. I have been credibly informed that Australian tinned fruits open up in India better than those from any other part of the world. At present the market is being exploited by Americans, who concentrate their selling campaign on the coloured heads of departments, whereas our representatives deal only with the Europeans in charge of warehouses. I am given to understand that the business is really to be done with the coloured superintendents. The honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan)** referred to the possibility of developing our tinned meat, trade with the East, but investigations conducted by the Country party have shown that the cost of preserving meat suitable for export - namely, that from aged cattle and sheep - is so high that the finished product would be too expensive to find a market in Eastern countries. Even frozen or chilled meat would be too dear for the people there to buy. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- How would the price compare with meat from the Argentine? {: .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr COLLINS: -- It is about 25 per cent. dearer. When our wheat was selling at 4s. a bushel, the people in the East were unable to buy it, but now that the price has fallen to 2s. 4d. a bushel, it is finding a market there. {: #subdebate-13-0-s69 .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY:
Calare -- I urge the Department of Commerce to pay more attention to the grading of Australian wheat, and the encouragement of the production of varieties of hard wheat insuitable districts. Most European countries at the present time are compelling bakers to use a very large proportion of home-grown wheat, but it is recognized that millers must mix with the local wheat a certain percentage of hard, dry wheat, with a high gluten or protein content, in order to produce a satisfactory flour. Australian wheat is valued all over the world for it whiteness. There are districts in Australia suitable for the production of hard wheat, but the co-operation of the various State Agricultural Departments is required to define them. It will also be necessary to make arrangements to keep the hard wheat separate from the other wheat. "We must get away from the f.a.q. standard, and abandon the practice of mixing all qualities of wheat together, so that they cannot be identified in the countries to which we export. I am voicing the opinion of the leading wheat experts in the Departments of Agriculture in New South "Wales and other States, when I say that we must urge our growers to produce a quality of hard wheat that will measure up to the standard of the Manitoba product. Such wheat is worth from 4d. to 6d. a bushel more than ordinary wheat, and there is an increasing demand for it in those countries that are, for economic reasons, encouraging the production of home-grown wheat. Russia is producing some excellent wheat of this quality which ranks only second to that grown in Manitoba. In some respects the Russian wheat is superior to the Australian product. It, therefore, behoves us to take every possible step to improve the standard of Australian wheat. {: #subdebate-13-0-s70 .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
Barker -- I appeal to the Minister to assist the marketing overseas of barley and oats, in the production of which many of those whom I represent are interested. When wheat prices were better, oats and -harley were not of the same importance as they are now, and were not grown so extensively. Recently, many farmers have gone in for the production of these grains, with the result that the Australian market is oversupplied, and endeavours are being made to find a market overseas. Difficulty has been experienced in this direction owing chiefly to competition from the United States of America. I am given to understand on reliable authority that Australian barley is suitable for the needs of the Scottish distillers, who are prepared to take large quantities if it can be landed in Scotland in good condition. One of the chief difficulties is that, by the time it reaches Britain, Australian barley is frequently badly affected by weevil. The shippers on this side maintain that the grain is perfectly sound when it leaves Australia, but as it is transported on slow ships it is attacked by weevils in transit. I appeal to the department to take action to ensure that the ships are free from weevils before the grain is loaded. The department should also require the grain to be properly graded, so that once we have established a market we may be able to hold it. {: #subdebate-13-0-s71 .speaker-F4U} ##### Mr FORDE:
Capricornia -- I wish to reply to the Minister's allegation that overseas markets were closed against Australia because of the high duties imposed by the last Government on goods entering this country. Much of this talk about markets being closed is merely so much propaganda by freetrade interests. While I was Minister for Trade and Customs, I investigated a number of complaints of this nature, and found in every case that they were propaganda set on foot by certain interests which desired the removal of duties. Every week or two a paragraph would appear in the press to the effect that if Australia persisted in her policy of high protection, Japan would cease buying Australian wool and wheat; hut the fact is that she is buying these commodities in ever-increasing quantities because it suits her to do so. In 1930-31 Japan purchased 10,775,000 centals of our wheat as against 1,686,000 centals in 1929-30. She purchased 84,000,000 lb. of greasy and scoured wool in 1929-30 as against 153,000,000' lb. in 1930-31. China is one of the largest purchasers of Australian wheat. In 1930-31 she took 14,000,000 centals. We have seen the value of our exports to Japan increase from £6,500,000 in 1929-30 to £9,500,000 in 1930-31, and to China from £273,000 in 1929-30 to £3,336,000 in 1930-31. The probable partial loss of some markets in consequence of the fiscal policy and restrictive tariffs adopted by the Scullin Government was seriously considered by that Administration, but in order to avoid default, it was decided to stem the tide of imports into this country and risk the retaliatory measures. {: #subdebate-13-0-s72 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member must not pursue that line of argument. {: .speaker-F4U} ##### Mr FORDE: -- I wish to refer briefly to Australia's trade with France. That is the only country which can be said to have enacted legislation definitely aimed at Australia. She has imposed heavy duties against Australian wheat and butter which, in my opinion, are unjustifiable. But the real reason for the imposition of these duties was the protection of French local production, and not retaliation against Australia. France produces more wheat than Australia, being fifth on the list of the wheat-producing countries of the world. Her ordinary tariff on wheat, which is 3s. 6d. per bushel, is equivalent to a duty of more than 100 per cent., and effectively prevents the importation of wheat from any country. France also produces more butter than she consumes, and exports approximately 25,000,000 lb. annually. In the face of these facts, it is nonsense to say that the duties she has imposed are intended solely to restrict imports from Australia. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member's remarks would be more appropriate to a tariff discussion. {: .speaker-F4U} ##### Mr FORDE: -- I have spoken in this strain only because the Minister for the Interior **(Mr. Perkins)** attributed the loss of our overseas markets to the restrictive duties imposed by the Scullin Government. On the subject I direct the attention of honorable members to the following extract from a report of General Pau, the leader of the French Mission to Australia some years ago : - >Australia will understand that a great agricultural nation such as France, which is an exporter of agricultural products, must, in this particular, provide a reasonable measure of protection for herself. But we shall not be able to forget that our comrades in arms throughout the Great War have a right to special consideration, and -we shall be glad to admit their products in large quantities, not alone including those which hitherto have been free of duty, but also those on which formerly our maximum rates were imposed. Clearly, the statement that Australia is losing her markets because of her protective policy is propaganda designed, to bolster up the case of those who desire to lower duties and increase our imports. {: #subdebate-13-0-s73 .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS:
Monaro- Minister for the Interior · Eden · UAP -- I thank honorable members on both sides of the committee for the moderate way in which they have discussed the proposed vote for the Department of Commerce, and also for the many useful suggestions that have been offered. This discussion has shown that we can unite for tho welfare of our country. I do not wish to discuss tariff matters, but in regard to the development of trade with Eastern countries, I point out that our imports from China are only about one-eighth of the value of our exports to that country. Our trade with other Eastern countries is in much the same ratio. This makes it impossible for us to increase our trade in that direction to any great extent. We buy very little from Eastern countries, and as they have no money for increased trade we cannot expect to improve our position even though shipping and other facilities should be provided. If earlier I appeared to trespass upon the generosity of the Chair in discussing our trade relations with France and Italy, I regret it. I had no intention of doing so. The honorable member for Franklin **(Mr. Blacklow)** suggested that we should do something more to increase our internal trade; but I remind him that constitutional limitations make the Commonwealth Parliament incompetent to do very much more than it is- doing in that direction. {: .speaker-JPP} ##### Mr Blacklow: -- My suggestion was that we should bring our internal standards up to our export standards. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- The Government is doing what it can in that direction. The supervision of various industries is becoming stricter. Gradually we are building up a good name abroad for the excellence of our goods, but we have not the power to do very much for our internal trade. Unfortunately, the opportunities that are provided for the improvement of our standards are not always availed of. Under the Fresh Fruits Overseas Marketing Act, passed in 1927, power was given to the fruit-growers to elect their own board of control, but the Tasmanian fruitgrowers declined to make an election. In my opinion, they have suffered in consequence. This, of course, refers particularly to the apple growers. {: .speaker-JPP} ##### Mr Blacklow: -- We have our own apple marketing machinery. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- I shall see that the useful suggestions that have been made during this debate are brought under the notice of the Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart).** Proposed vote agreed to. Refunds of Revenue. *Proposed vote,* £1,150,000 - agreed to. Advance to the TREASURER *Proposed vote,* £2,000,000 - agreed to. War Services Payable outof Revenue. *Proposed vote,* £1,100,900 - agreed to. Commonwealth Railways. *Proposed vote,* £541,770. {: #subdebate-13-0-s74 .speaker-F4U} ##### Mr FORDE:
Capricornia -- Has the Government reached a decision respecting the continuation or cancellation of the subsidy of £40,000 per annum granted by the Bruce-Page Government to Westralian Airways Limited? This company runs an air service which competes with the east-west railway, and has seriously affected its revenue. It is to the standing discredit of the Bruce-Page Government that it ever provided this subsidy, for it has enabledWestralian Airways Limited to rob the east-west railway of half the number of passengers it formerly carried. {: #subdebate-13-0-s75 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR:
Minister for Health and Repatriation · Parkes · UAP -- A departmental committee which has been inquiring into the possibility of establishing an air service between Singapore and Australia has recently submitted its report to the Government. When this report is being considered the subsidy payable to Westralian Airways Limited will also be reviewed. As soon as the Government reaches a decision on the subject a statement will be made to honorable members. Proposed vote agreed to. Postmaster-General's Department. *Proposed Vote,* £8,622,800. {: #subdebate-13-0-s76 .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
Barker . -I wish to draw the attention of the Postmaster-General to the matter of country telephone exchanges, particularly those which have enjoyed a continuous service. Because of the hard times, many persons have ceased to be subscribers, with the result that a notification is received from the department intimating that the continuous service will be discontinued unless the remaining subscribers give a cash guarantee to make up the difference between the receipts and the minimum revenue required; I think, £250. We are informed that country telephone services are not paying. Surely the reduction of services will not bring greater income? In the interests of revenue, and of the persons residing in country districts, the department should seriously consider making a slight reduction in their minimum demand for continuous country exchanges. There is another matter which I desire to bring before the Postmaster-General, one upon which we have exchanged correspondence. After receiving my last letter from the department on the subject, I explained the position to the Postmaster-General, who withdrew the reply which it contained, in order to give the matter further consideration. It concerns the need for a postmaster's residence at Wolseley. Because that town is a railway junction, a considerable quantity of mail matter has to be handled at the post office, with the result that it has a larger staff than would normally be found in a town of that size. No house is provided for the postmaster, who has experienced great difficulty in finding a dwelling, and now resides in a house in which he should not be required to live. Certain sums of money are made available by the State and Federal Governments for unemployed relief, and I suggest that a portion of the Commonwealth grant should be used to build an official residence for the postmaster at Wolseley. We have the necessary masons, bricklayers, carpenters, tinsmiths and other artisans out of employment, and the department could do nothing better than devote a portion of the unemployed relief grant to this Avork. The postmaster at Wolseley is paying as rental for a miserable dwelling a. sum which would pay interest on a decent house erected in the manner that I have described. I have specially mentioned the town of Wolseley, but I know of several other centres similarly situated, where the same recommendations could be put into effect with advantage. The department has advised that it is unable to carry out this work, but when the PostmasterGeneral has given the proposal his earnest consideration, I think he will agree that it is a practicable one, and in the interests of the department as well as of the unemployed. I congratulate the Postmaster-General on his advancement to his present position and I feel sure, that, with the business capacity that he admittedly possesses, he will provide an- efficient service that will eclipse all records of the past. I look forward with pleasurable anticipation to the improvements that I am sure we are to get. {: #subdebate-13-0-s77 .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy -- During the past twelve months, I have received a formidable budget of letters from the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs, Queensland, aud from the central office of the PostmasterGeneral's Department. In practically every case, the reply to the representations that I have made is " The financial position will not permit of any work being done." I am very pleased that the honorable member for Warringah **(Mr. Parkhill)** has been appointed Postmaster-General. If he directs the affairs of the Post Office as admirably as he did those of the Department of the Interior, honorable members will have nothing to complain about. Recently, the honorable gentleman visited Mount Isa. Incidentally, for some time, I had importuned the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs, Queensland, to install a continuous telephone service at that town, where I suppose about 1,000 men work underground. The cost to put a boy in charge on a sleeping shift would be about £1 a week. Yet I was told that the financial position would not permit that to be done. When the honorable gentleman was at Mount Isa, a deputation waited upon him, and submitted the case for a continuous telephone exchange. He returned to Canberra, stated the case as he found it, and now Mount Isa enjoys the advantages of that facility. Country people find it difficult to believe that country telephone installations are a losing proposition for the department. The rent is some £3 12s. a year, plus calls. Frequently, the wiring is carried from tree to tree, which obviates the cost of poles. A telephone is a necessary facility for the man out-back. Those in the city have trams, twice-a-day mail deliveries, and other advantages. Surely, people on stations, and those prospecting along the banks of creeks and living in out-back centres, are entitled to participate in the advantages of modern conveniences! As a result of the development in the tobaccogrowing industry,.. qui te a number of new settlements are springing up in Queens land. Many are within a mile of the telegraph line which runs parallel with the railway line to Chillagoe. They are marketing and producing a commodity which eventually will save Australia sending £3,000,000 abroad yearly, and should receive greater consideration. When departmental economies were first mooted, those in charge of the Post- . master-General's Department promptly suggested the reduction of mail deliveries in the country. Where previously there were three deliveries a week, there are now two; where there were two, there is at present only one. New centres have opened up here and there, with possibly ten or twelve settlers in each, who receive their mail through the medium of a mail contractor. When they have asked for a deviation in the delivery to convenience individuals a little off the main route, they have been told that the financial position will not permit of that being done. The contractor may demand from £10 to £12 a year to make that deviation. Surely such settlers are entitled to a service that will enable mails to be brought to and taken from them. The welfare of such people also requires that they be provided by the Government with amenities such as the telephone and wireless. We should now have reached the stage when telephones would be installed in practically every household, and wireless transmission established in the centre of remote settlements so that some of the comforts of civilization might be enjoyed there. At the town of Koah the residents have cut a pole ready for erection. The telephone line runs within 30 feet of a store. The storekeeper is willing to attend to telephone calls, and receive and handle mails without remuneration. The pole will be erected without cost to the department if it will provide the instrument. Yet, because of the financial position, a man cannot be sent from Cairns, 30 miles distant, to make the installation. I undertake to do the work when I am next in my electorate, if the department will supply the telephone. There is another settlement, comprising between 120 and 150 settlers, in and around Boonje. on the Atherton Tableland. It also is unable to obtain mail or telephone facilities on account of the financial position. I am convinced that the present Postmaster-General **(Mr. Parkhill)** will not allow the Treasurer to " put it over him nor will he merely press a button and leave it to **Mr. Brown** to say what can be' done, but that he will call for a report from the inspector in the district. If the financial position will not permit of work being put in hand when it is recommended, what is the use of sending inspectors to these places? All that we want is a fair deal. When the last Estimates were before this Parliament my friend, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Greer),** was Postmaster-General. Upon funds becoming available, he spent a fairly considerable sum in the Kennedy electorate. I hope that the gentleman who now occupies that office, knowing the vast distances that these people have to travel, will recognize the force of their claim. This part of the Commonwealth has been long neglected on account of its isolation. {: #subdebate-13-0-s78 .speaker-KNT} ##### Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP -- I support the representations of the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan).** I happen to come from the far out-back, and to be acquainted with the disadvantages and anxieties of people with growing families in the sparsely-populated parts of the Commonwealth. Whatever can be done to make their lot better, should.be undertaken, even though it be at the expense of some of the facilities that are enjoyed in what may be termed the pampered cities of Australia. In the case of those who do not live quite so far out as the friends of the honorable member, I urge one or two small re-arrangements of the telephone service, which would involve no expense, but simply a little thought in administration. I have been particularly urged to make these suggestions by the Country Women's Association of Victoria, which represents no political party, but has a considerable influence on the comfort and well-being of those women who live outside the cities. The first suggestion is that a uniform closing hour be observed in country telephone exchanges. At the present time, some offices close between 12 and 1, and others between 1 and 2; some are open on five days a week and others on six. The arrange ments are higgledy-piggledy, and render ineffective a large portion of each working day. It would be quite a simple matter for the postal authorities to arrive at a compromise. It must be remembered that this service in most cases is being given to a farming community. A farmer cannot wait until the office opens at 9 o'clock in the morning so that he may transact his business comfortably ; he has to commence work at an early hour, and the exchange hours should be such as would suit his convenience. Frequently, if he wishes to telephone for replacement parts, he finds that the office is closed at the very time when he returns to his home for the midday meal. {: .speaker-K4X} ##### Mr Nock: -- An arrangement in regard to hours may be made with the local officer. {: .speaker-KNT} ##### Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP -- But if a subscriber endeavoured to secure a connexion with a number in another town, hemight find that the office there observes different hours. I suggest uniform closing hours throughout a zone. That would enable business to be done on the telephone without the payment of an opening fee. In country districts the amount of the fee is a matter of casual arrangement between the person in charge of the exchange and the calling subscriber. The maximum that may be charged is ls. 6d., but in some districts as little as Id. is accepted. Action should be taken by the department to fix a reasonable opening fee which would be uniform in every district. I suggest also a uniform half-holiday, so that the telephone service in town A may not be rendered inoperative by reason of the fact that the office at town B is closed while the operators are absent at a football match. I admit that there are difficulties, but a little care in zoning would overcome them, and make the service useful throughout a reasonably sized zone during the same hours. The solution of these problems is the rural automatic service, and I feel sure that the Postmaster-General will turn his attention to it very shortly. These installations, however, cost in the vicinity of £600, and, at the moment, it is quite absurd to ask for a number of such exchanges. But they would be both convenient and helpful to the people in the country districts, and, as funds become more plentiful, I trust that they will be installed. I associate myself with the remarks of the honorable member for Barker **(Mr. Cameron)** regarding the guaranteed charge for a continuous service in some country exchanges. When times were good that charge was fixed at £250. The man on the land has had a particularly bad time recently, and it is beyond the power of many of them to furnish such a guarantee. In private business, when conditions become bad, prices are reduced to' encourage trading. It is worth considering whether a reduced guarantee should not be asked for a continuous service in country exchanges. The pay of those who operate these exchanges has materially decreased; but, like the laws of the Medes and Persians, the guarantee remains unaltered, and the number of persons who have to discontinue the telephone service is gradually increasing. Eventually, the Postal Department will be the loser. {: #subdebate-13-0-s79 .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY:
Calare .I. wish to refer particularly to the agreement that was entered into in November, 1927, with Amalgamated "Wireless Australasia Limited. That agreement provided that either party to it might terminate it after the expiration of four years by giving the other party twelve months' notice. I understand that that has not been done. If notice of cancellation had been given in 1931, the agreement would be on the point of expiring now. Of the 1,000,000 shares in the company, 500,001 are held by the Commonwealth, which is entitled to appoint three of the seven directors. The agreement also provides for the payment to Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited of a royalty of 3s. for every wireless listener's licence, and as many thousands of listeners use crystal sets 'costing 10s. or 15s. each, Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited has, in the last four years, collected from those listeners 12s. each, a sum equal to, if not in excess of, the actual cost of their sets. This royalty, it is urged, is in payment for certain patent rights held by the company; but the agreement specifically provides that it has to substantiate its claim to those patent rights. Its claim was contested some years ago. In the case Jones versus Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, the verdict was against the company, but a later action, Myers Melbourne versus Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited was won by the company on a technicality. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- Immediately after the Melbourne action, Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited withdrew its claim against New Zealand. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY: -- That is so. It should be explained that Myers Melbourne did not defend the case, simply because of the costs involved and it had nothing to gain. This legal victory had the effect of binding the agreement between the Commonwealth Government and Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, and it has enabled the company to collect, to date, no less a sum than £250,000 in the form of royalties in. respect of patent rights valued at £96,000. As the Government has not yet given notice to terminate the agreement, another £73,000 will be collected this year. The Government would be well advised to take the earliest opportunity to give notice to cancel the agreement. If this were done, it would be possible to reduce by 3s. a year the fees paid by all listeners throughout the Commonwealth, thus saving them £73,000 in one year without any loss of revenue to the Government. As about 6,000 new licences are issued each month, the continued payment of this royalty will mean an additional £900 a month for Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited. This is a further argument why early action should be taken to cancel the agreement. In doing this, the Government will not be breaking any contract, or violating any portion of the agreement, because there is specific provision, for the giving of notice to terminate it. If this were clone, it would be possible for the Government to reduce wireless licence-fees, and prevent listenersin from being robbed further by Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, which has a stranglehold on the wireless interests of this country. The manufacturing profits of the company in 1931 totalled £59,196, and the total payment made by 'the Postal Department in the form of royalties collected from listeners was £51,500. The bulk of the patents rights claimed by the company are now public property. The law provides that patents rights shall hold for seven years with the right of renewal for another term. Although its patent rightsare not now wholly valid, a great deal of secrecy is still being observed with reference to the company's affairs. Notwithstanding that the Commonwealth Government has three direct representatives on the board no one, not even the Postmaster-General, can say definitely what is the salary of the managing director, **Mr. Fisk.** It is variously stated at from £5,000 to £7,000 a year, with another £3,000 a3 entertainment allowance. {: .speaker-KHL} ##### Mr Holloway: -- Is not the amount shown in his income tax returns? {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY: -- Since I have not access to his income tax returns, I am unable to say. {: .speaker-KHL} ##### Mr Holloway: -- I thought that it might have been possible when the honorable member was a Minister in the State Government. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY: -I understand that under the Lang administration there were opportunitIts recently in New South Wales foi persons to examine income tax papers after the department had been locked up; but that privilege was not extended to Commonwealth members, and when I was in the State Cabinet I could not, and would not have examined taxation returns. I hope that the PostmasterGeneral will give earnest consideration to the various points I have raised. I also suggest that arrangements be made for Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited to go into liquidation, so that the functions of the company may be separated. The Government, as an interested partner in Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, should dissociate itself entirely from what is doubtless a socialistic enterprise - the manufacturing side of the business- and concentrate 'its attention upon beam wireless and other forms of wireless transmission, leaving the manufacture of sets and equipment to private manufacturers. I also put it to the Postmaster-General that the convenience of listeners would be met if holders of licences who are also telephone subscribers could have their accounts rendered half-yearly. Under existing conditions wireless licence-f.:es are collected annually, and telephone accounts are rendered half-yearly. This system means duplication and inconvenience. If arrangements could be made for those telephone subscribers who also hold wireless licences to have their telegram and telephone accounts and wireless licence-fees included in one. account, and rendered half-yearly, the whole amount due could be paid in one cheque. For many years country telephone subscribers in New South Wales have been representing to the Postal Department that serious injustice is being inflicted upon the first subscriber to a party telephone line by the departmental decision to hold him responsible for the ground rent and calls of all the other party-line subscribers. Honorable members will readily understand that in most country districts it is practically impossible for each subscriber to have an individual telephone line, particularly with a. metallic circuit, running to his homestead, in some cases many miles. For financial reasons party lines are the most popular. Some party lines may have as many as fourteen or fifteen subscribers. All calls made on the line are recorded separately, but the Postal Department insists on sending the account to the first subscriber, who is required to pay it within fourteen days. As a first subscriber, I know the procedure adopted. Some of the party- line subscribers may be good payers, and some not so good. The first subscriber is held responsible for all the calls recorded on a party line, the departmental rule being to recognize only the first subscriber to a party telephone service. I have repeatedly urged that each subscriber should be responsible for his own telephone account, but the only reason that the department has ever been able to give to me why this is nor done is that it has no control over subsequent subscribers to a party line. I maintain that it has control over them. The department contends that if the line were disconnected the service to other subscribers would be destroyed. That is ridiculous. Generally speaking the instruments are privately-owned, because, under the regulations, the department, undertakes to provide only one instrument, which is installed on the property of the first subscriber. Subsequent subscribers have to provide their own instruments {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The department now provides all the instruments. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY: -- I was unaware that a change had been made. The department contends that it has no power to disconnect the line, because, in doing so, it would destroy the service to other subscribers; but I submit that there is a simple method by which that difficulty could be overcome. Under the present system every subscriber using the party line knows that one long ring is given to raise the' exchange, and that other subscribers on the party line are called by Morse signals. A subscriber gives bis party line number, whatever it may be, and it would be a simple matter to instruct the telephone attendant that no call should be put through for a subscriber until his account had been paid. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- That would not prevent them from speaking to other subscribers on the party line. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY: -- At present there is no charge for calls between subscribers on the same party line. {: .speaker-KNT} ##### Mr E F HARRISON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · UAP -- The honorable member should not discourage that practice. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr THORBY: -- I do not intend to do so. The department has no authority to prevent conversations of that kind, because the subscribers are using private property, and it is only when a call is put through the exchange that a charge can legitimately be made. The department should find means to remove this serious anomaly under which the first subscriber is held responsible for the calls debited to other subscribers, however great the number may be. Many subscribers run up fairly heavy accounts, and are slow in paying. They realize that the first subscriber has to pay the department to protect his own interests. Under the conditions which at present prevail, the first subscriber has r.o collect from the others, and, in some instances, one, or even two, years elapse before the first subscriber can collect the money due to him, even though the payment to the department has been made some time before. The official reply given in the past by the department should not be tolerated. Unfortunately, all govern ment departments are too ready to be guided by precedents established by senior officers many years ago. No senior officer is willing to set aside a precedent which has been accepted as an unwritten law. I seriously appeal to the PostmasterGeneral to instruct the department to find a way to overcome the difficulty. I feel strongly on this matter, and any assistance which the department may give will be fully appreciated by country telephone subscribers, using party lines. {: #subdebate-13-0-s80 .speaker-JWE} ##### Mr CASEY:
Corio -- I wish to refer briefly to the subject of broadcasting. It is interesting to find that. Canada has had the same experience as Australia with respect to broadcasting reform. After inquiry by a royal commission, the Canadian Radio Broadcasting Commission has recently been formed on very much the same lines as the Broadcasting Commission which was appointed in Australia about the same time. The report of the Canadian commission shows that Canada is very conscious of the potentialities of broadcasting as an instrument of education. In the United States of America there are some tens of thousands of schools fully equipped for teaching by means of wireless, and at certain hours of the day the children put away their books, and are instructed by wireless under a regular State scheme. In one State alone - I think it is Ohio - no fewer than 6,000 schools are fully equipped with wireless for educational purposes. It was once said that the limits of democracy were the limits of the human voice, but broadcasting has changed that in a most remarkable manner. It was recently reported that during the present American presidential election campaign, at certain times of the day and night the whole of the United States of America is turned into a huge election meeting. Similarly in Australia, when we really get the business of educational broadcasting established, we could, at certain times of the day, convert this great continent into a vast school-room. Wireless broadcasting for educational purposes is a perfect example of centralization and decentralization, in that we can get the most experienced teachers and authorities on educational subjects, and utilize their services in broadcasting from the prin- cipal cities so that those living in the most remote country centres as well as those in the more populous areas, may benefit alike. Education in Australia is, of course, a State activity. I can well imagine that the Australian Broadcasting Commission may need the sympathetic help of the Commonwealth Government when approaching the States in order to get educational broadcasting conducted on uniform lines. I respectfully suggest that the Postmaster-General should be willing and ready to co-operate with the commission in approaching the States on this matter. It has occurred to me that in my electorate, as well as in other centres, it would be possible to use motor bicycles and side-cars for mail delivery in areas in which the ordinary mail car delivery by contract is inappropriate. It would be much cheaper - probably onethird or one-quarter of the cost - and be a means of providing certain remote districts with services, or improved services compared with those which now obtain. I also ask the Postmaster-General whether it is not possible to cheapen the oversea wireless telephone rate. 1 know that the consideration is revenue, and that it may be argued that if the present rates were reduced by from 25 per cent, to 50 per cent., the increase in traffic would not be sufficient to make up for the consequent decrease in revenue. That may be a valid argument; but a charge of £6 for three minutes to Great Britain, which is equivalent to 8d. a second, is a killing rate. The overseas wireless telephone service is used only when very important business has to be transacted, or in a matter of life or death. In the present circumstances, the volume of business is limited. But, with a view to stimulating the traffic and to bring this valuable service within the range of a greater number of people, I should like to hear from the Postmaster-General, not necessarily to-night, whether it is not possible to reduce present rates. In conclusion, I wish to express appreciation of the civil and efficient treatment that I, as a member of this Parliament, have received from the Deputy Director of Postal Services in Mel bourne. He is able to grant my requests only infrequently, but that is not his fault. I should, however, like the Minister to know that I have always received the most courteous, civil and prompt attention from **Mr. A.** J. Christie, and that I greatly appreciate the consideration he has shown me. {: #subdebate-13-0-s81 .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney -- I wish to refer to Dutch Airways, which is operating a weekly service between Holland and Batavia. I understand that in June last this company suggested to the Commonwealth Government that its service should be extended to Darwin or Wyndham, thus giving a fourteen days' postal service between London and Australia. The offer by the Dutch company was free from any subsidy, and it did not ask for any guarantee whatever. Further, the company stated that should Imperial Airways or any other company enter the business, it was prepared to retire. I am informed that it was its. intention to make a surcharge of ls. a letter, and also to charge for passengers. Up to the present we do not know if the Government has any intention of accepting this offer. I presume that this is a matter which would first be considered by the Postmaster-General's Department, because the object of the company is to reduce the time now occupied in carrying mail matter between Australia and London. Meanwhile, from what I can gather, three Australian aviation companies - Australian National Airways Limited, Qantas and Westralian Airways - have made joint representations in this matter, so that their claims may be considered with those submitted by the Dutch company. The gentleman sponsoring the scheme on behalf of the Australian companies is the chairman of Australian National Airways Limited, **Mr. F.** H. Stewart, the present Minister for Commerce. The basis of their proposal was that the subsidies amounting to £93,453, that are provided on the Estimates for 1932-33 for aerial and civil services, should be terminated, and the money devoted to the establishment of a CalcuttaSingaporeWyndham service linking up with all the Australian capital cities. The chairman of Australian National Airways said that this service would be self-supporting in three or four years. **Sir William** Nicholson, of Imperial Airways Limited, who visited Australia recently, estimated that the proposed service would require a subsidy of £75,000 a year at the outset. If that amount were deducted from the £93,453 at present provided on the Estimates, only £1S,453 would be left to subsidize the existing services of Australian National Airways, Qantas, and Westralian' Airways Limited. If this proposal is' under the consideration of the Government, the committee is entitled to be told the financial standing of the companies which have advanced it in opposition to the Dutch project. We are informed that Australian National Airways Limited is in deep water financially. According to the last balance-sheet, that for the year ended the 30th June, 1931, 'its paid up capital was £61,440, of which £12,500 had been issued for goodwill.' The profit and loss account at that date showed a debit of £18,043. The preliminary expenses were £4,999, making the total intangible socalled assets, £35,542. Creditors' bills payable and the bank overdraft amounted to £27,911. The' intangible assets and claims of creditors, therefore, total £2,013 more than the paid-up capital. On the other side of the balance-sheet were hangars, planes, plant, &c, valued at £48,303, a valuation which is problematical to-day, whilst sundry debtors and cash amounted to £5,506. I understand also that the Commonwealth Bank had ' placed a receiver in possession of the company's affairs. It would be interesting to know who is behind Australian National Airways, and what interests are at work to secure the proposed subsidy from the Government. The principal shareholders in the company are - C. Ulm, 6,251 shares; **Sir Charles** Kingsford Smith, 3,001; H. R. Stewart, 5,000; R. P. Stewart, 5,000; F. H. Stewart, 5,000; M. C. Reid, 1025 ; J. J. Sullivan, 1,000 ; R. H. Cole, 1,000; F. J. McHugh, 1,000; C. H. Smith, 2,000; R. W. Richards, 1,000; A. E. Swan, 1,495, Arthur Vickery, 7,475; Mary E. Payne, 1,000"; Alma Payne, 1,000; Madge Payne, 1,000 and S. H. Marriatt, 9,975. Honorable members will observe that the largest number of shares is held by the Stewart family; **Mr. F.** H. Stewart is believed to be the principal creditor of the company, and his family is more interested than anybody else in the proposed subsidy. At the time of the recent appointments to the Commonwealth Ministry I asked whether it was right that Ministers should conduct on' behalf of the Commonwealth negotiations in which they had a pecuniary interest. I was not then in possession of the information I am placing before the committee to-night. I felt that it would not conduce to the proper conduct of public affairs if men who were interested to the extent shown by the share list were permitted to influence a decision by the Commonwealth Government to pay subsidies to a company that was in financial difficulties. Qantas is in a much better financial position. Under a contract dated the 30th June, 1930, it was to receive a subsidy of £21,221 for the first year, £20,578 for the second year, and £19,925 for the third and last year. It has paid dividends since 1927 at the rate of 4 per cent. Its last balance-sheet, that for the year ended the 30th June, 1931, showed that the liquid assets of the company exceeded the liabilities by £10,000, and that the reserves amounted to £12,400. The reduction of the subsidy this year, and the fall of revenues prompted a' merger of all air companies. {: .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr Riordan: -- Qantas has rendered very good service. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- Yes, and I fear that the influence of Australian National Airways may deprive the far-flung northern areas of the valuable service that they enjoy to-day. Westralian Airways, for the year ended the 30th June, 1931, received a subsidy of £65,595, and its earnings amounted to £21,315. The operations showed a net profit of £8,777, and a dividend of *7&* per cent, was declared on the paid-up capital of £83,468. The company operates two services, namely, between Perth and Wyndham, unci between Perth and Adelaide. Both Qantas and Westralian Airways are operating, but Australian National Airways is not. The Calcutta link with the necessary transcontinental connexions would absorb all the finance available from the Government, and, therefore, the other services would have to be sacrificed. If the Dutch are prepared to extend their ser- vice to Wyndham or Darwin, only one day's flying from Batavia, no harm would result from allowing them to do «o for the time being. I understand that they are not asking for a subsidy or guarantee; therefore, the subsidy now being paid would still be available to keep the present satisfactory services in operation. No Commonwealth money would be involved in allowing the Dutch to maintain a service from Batavia to Wyndham or Darwin, and if any additional money should become available for subsidies, it could be better applied to the improvement of - our internal services. However good these may be, they could doubtless be better, and, as time goes on, the out-back areas will be entitled to more attention and consideration. In the present state of the finances, a new subsidy such as has been proposed by the Australian companies seems impossible, but I am afraid that Australian National Air-ways Limited, which ' is in financial difficulties, may seek to rehabilitate itself by diverting to the proposed overseas route the subsidies now paid towards internal set-vices, which, I understand, arc satisfactory. That would be so Wrong, that I feel justified in directing attention to the risk in the hope that the Minister will make a definite statement which will clear the situation, and reassure those concerned in the existing services. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Surely the Minister for Commerce would not have any say in the granting of such a subsidy. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- He is chairman of Australian National Airways, and I understand that this proposal emanated from, that quarter. From a business point of view, the honorable gentleman may not be to blame for attempting to bring about this deal, but it would be politically improper, and would seriously' affect the finances of the present services. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- I assure the honorable member that nothing of the sort has even been suggested by any member of the Government. I shall explain the whole proposal later. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- I hope that the Minister . will assure the committee that the proposal I have mentioned is not being entertained by the Government. On an earlier occasion, I criticized the personnel of the Broadcasting Commis sion, directing attention to the uniform political leanings of its members. More recent developments have confirmed my impression that the control of this service is being developed along political lines acceptable to the supporters of the Government. Over four months ago applications were called for a secretary to the Broadcasting Commission. Many applications were received from all parts of Australia, and the applicants, no doubt, expected that within a reasonable time the decision of the commission would be conveyed to them. Up to date they have heard nothing as to the result of their applications. It appears that the commission is filling positions without calling for applications. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- To what position is the honorable member referring? {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- I intend to refer to one position in particular. This practice i3 not uncommon in respect of semi-public bodies. I can speak with knowledge, because I have been employed by such bodies. They place men in certain positions as temporary employees, and when the time comes for the calling of applications and their "consideration, the man who is holding the job temporarily is, in nearly every instance, appointed, because of his knowledge Of the work to be performed. The Broadcasting Commission has filled at least one position without calling for applications. **Mr. Chapple,** who was a director of 2CH broadcasting station, which is operated by the present Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart),** has been appointed programme director. {: .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- The Minister is a successful business man. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- He is the chairman of the Australian National Airways Limited, a company into which the Commonwealth Bank not long ago put a receiver. Had the honorable member listened to my speech, he would have heard of the appalling position of that company. We can all be successful when times are good and things are going our way. My complaint is that **Mr. Chapple** was appointed programme director without applications being called for the position. I read in 'the press of the send-off that he received. The Minister for Commerce was present, and congratulated him on his entrance to a wider sphere of broadcasting. The natural inference was that **Mr. Chapple** was being placed in t! inner circle politically as a reward ft. his services to the Nationalist party. My complaint is that, included in the personnel of the commission are certain men and a woman whose political views are well known to the public. The general manager of the commission is **Mr. Williams,** who at one time was known to listeners-in as " the man outback." He used to comment on international and local affairs, and honorable members on this side of the chamber frequently received complaints. that the views of **Mr. Williams** were distinctly anti-Labour. It was, therefore, to be expected that he would obtain a position on the Broadcasting Commission. It looks to me as if this policy is saturating every department of the Broadcasting Commission. {: .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr Collins: -- **Mr. Williams** was a wonderful announcer of news. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- I am riot questioning his ability as an announcer; but I am entitled to question the appointment as general manager of a nationally-owned broadcasting station, of a person who, in the past, has heaped ridicule and sarcasm upon everything that is of a Labour character. I am not quibbling about members of the Government appointing their political friends to positions on the Broadcasting Commission ; but I warn them that, when a change of government takes place, the example set by the present Government will be followed. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- The honorable member is under a wrong impression. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- My objection throughout has been to the action of the Government in placing its friends in the key positions of the Broadcasting Commission. The Government can continue to make these appointments and to saturate the commission with its political friends, but let me tell it that when a change of government takes place, these gentlemen who have been appointed need not wait to be asked to resign. **Mr. Williams** would be well advised to pack up his traps and get out rather than be pushed out. {: #subdebate-13-0-s82 .speaker-KCH} ##### Mr DENNIS:
Batman .Although I am a city representative, I am in sympathy with those honorable members who have asked for an extension of telephone facilities to country districts. I suggest to the Postmaster-General **(Mr. Parkhill)** that when mail contracts are let for a particular country township, it should be stipulated that in the event of a new township springing up nearby, the mail contractor would be paid a certain sum for giving the additional service needed. I have a more serious matter to place before honorable members; I refer to a proposal to erect a telephone exchange at Preston. It will be necessary for me to read two or three letters in order to explain the position to the PostmasterGeneral. The first letter, which is from the Town Clerk of the City of Preston, reads - >I have the honour by direction of my council to enclose herein, for your kind attention, joint letter signed by **Mr. J.** S. McFadzean of Reservoir, and thirteen other subscribers to the telephone exchange, drawing the attention of the Postmaster-General to the excessive rental charges paid by subscribers in that district, and asking for the favorable consideration of the Postmaster-General to the establishment of an exchange at Preston. > >I have been directed by my council to request that you will be so good as to use your valued influence in the endeavour to have .this matter given due consideration by the PostmasterGeneral. The letter referred to in that communication reads as follows: - >We desire to bring under your notice that users of the telephone at Reservoir are charged from £10 to £.13 rental per annum on a mileage basis from the Northcote Exchange, which is very heavy toll under present conditions. Your predecessor agreed that an oxchange was required at Preston, and as this has not been built we claim that at least users of the phone should only be charged a rental as from the Preston Post Office. Already a number of subscribers have stopped using the phone owing to this heavy cost for rental., and others will follow unless a concession on present rates is allowed. We would ask your early consideration of our request. To that letter are appended the signatures of thirteen subscribers. Another letter dealing with the same matter reads - >I am taking the liberty of bringing before you, what I consider the unfair charges we are called upon to pay for telephone rental. > >I have just paid our private telephone account of £G 17s. 7d., of which £4 os. is fur rental, and the calls work out at 4d. each. > >As you probably know the ordinary rental is £2 los. per half year, but because of the fact that there is no exchange in Preston, we are outside of the specified radius from the Northcote exchange. > >I have previously written to **Mr. Brown,** Director of Postal Services, about this matter and I received a very courteous reply stating that the regulations set out that the distance is calculated from the nearest exchange and subscribers outside the 2-mile radius must pay additional rental. > >I wish to submit that this regulation is not equitable, as Ivanhoe and Heidelberg have each an exchange and their populations combined are not as great as Preston, nor do they serve as large an area. Further, I know of subscribers living in East Kew, some considerable distance from the Hawthorn exchange, who only pay the ordinary rental because they are within 2 miles of Ivanhoe exchange. > >I understand that the regulations are alterable, and, therefore, suggest that where telephone exchange facilities are not provided in a district, that the distance be calculated from the nearest post office. > >Having once enjoyed the convenience of a telephone, one feels very reluctant to dispense with it, but you will realize that in these times, when economy has to be practised, the charges arc too great altogether. > >I hope that you will see your way clear to take up this matter with the department, and feel certain that a reduction in the charges would make it possible for a larger number of taxpayers to become subscribers. I have a further letter which states - >With reference to your application for the provision of an outdoor extension telephone service to the Strathallan Public Cemetery, J regret to have to advise you that owing to a clerical error the rental quoted for this facility is not correct. The correct rental for the service is £16 5s. per annum, made up as follows : - A duplicate agreement form is enclosed herewith, and if you desire to proceed with the matter under the amended rental, I shall be glad if you will complete and return it to this office with a remittance of £3 2s. 6d., being the balance of the first year's rental in advance, when action will be taken to have the work put in hand. No doubt this case Ls one of many like cases in Australia. If we wish to provide the people of this country with reasonable telephone facilities, we must charge them a reasonable rental. Many years ago the department acquired a block of land in a central position in Preston for the erection, ultimately, of a telephone exchange. The letter which I have read requests that a telephone exchange be built on that block, but I do not ask that that be done at the moment. The Northcote exchange, which is only about 4 miles distant, will be able to serve the district for many years. I am convinced that the subscribers of Preston are not concerned whether or not they have a telephone exchange for some time, but they do complain about the high rates they are now charged. If my suggestion is adopted, and distances are calculated from the nearest post office, instead of from the nearest exchange, I am confident that the number of subscribers at Preston, and in other districts, will increase. Preston, a city with a population of between 30,000 and 35,000 people, is within 7 miles of the General Post Office, Melbourne, and is entitled to telephonic facilities at reasonable rates. I feel confident that the Minister will, if possible, grant this request. Some time ago the department let a contract for the delivery of letters in the northern portion of the city of Preston. I suggest that, when that contract expires, it should revert to the old system of having letters delivered by employees of the department, rather than by a contractor. The contract system may be satisfactory in country districts, but not in a city the size of Preston. I should be glad also if the Minister would review the rentals charged to post office employees for the government buildings which they occupy as residences. On page 284 of the Estimates there is mention of a sum of £5,500 to be withheld from officers on this account. These employees have suffered a considerable reduction of their salaries, and a corresponding reduction in the rentals charged to them should be made. {: #subdebate-13-0-s83 .speaker-KIO} ##### Mr HUNTER:
Maranoa -- I entirely agree with the remarks of the honorable member for Calare **(Mr. Thorby)** with regard to party telephone lines. Probably every member representing country districts has received letters from subscribers to party lines complaining of demands by the department for payment of rent, and threats to cut off the whole line if payment is not made, and stating their inability in some cases to collect from the other subscribers to the line. When the department is approached in this matter it invariably replies that it is its policy to treat subscribers to party lines in that way. That may be so; but policies can be changed, and it is time that this policy was changed. I am glad that the honorable member for Warringah **(Mr. Parkhill)** is now Postmaster-General, because, judging by the good work he did when in charge of the Department of the Interior, 1 am confident that he will clean up a number of things in the PostmasterGeneral's Department which need attention, and will institute a new policy there. With the exception of the time when the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green)** was Postmaster-General - and then no money was available - it is a long time since a man favorable to country subscribers has been in charge of the Post Office. When the honorable member for Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** was PostmasterGeneral, country districts received fair treatment, both in regard to telephones and rentals, for the first time within my knowledge; but recently country districts have not been treated fairly, many of the concessions granted previously having been withdrawn. The honorable member for Calare also referred to the 3s. paid to Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, in respect of every listeners' licence. The profits of the company depend on the revenue obtained from this source, whereas a properly conducted company should earn profits without resorting to this form of blackmail. The Government, because it is a half shareholder in the company, receives ls. 6d. of every 3s. paid to the company. It is strange that » company which manufactures wireless parts, and controls " beam " wireless, should make no profits other than the amounts received by way of fees. The affairs of the company should be investigated by the Government. I wish now to refer to the disabilities of border towns. Mungindi is a town on the border between New South Wales and Queensland, the larger portion of the town, which contains the post office, being in New South Wales. Should the people in the northern portion of the town wish to send a telegram to Thallon, a town in Queensland 28 miles distant, they cross the river bridge to the post office, and pay ls. 4d. for the telegram, bec. .ase it is an interstate message. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The same applies to messages between Albury and Wodonga. {: .speaker-KIO} ##### Mr HUNTER: -- Although it costs ls. 4d. to send a message to Thallon, it costs only ls. to send a telegram to Albury, right across the State. Similar conditions apply in respect to parcels. Mungindi is nearer to Brisbane than Sydney, and its people do the greater part of their shopping with Queensland firms. But, as the post office is in New South Wales, parcels sent either to or from Brisbane are charged interstate rates. When complaint is made, the people are told that these conditions have existed for many years. That is true, and it is time that a newpolicy was put into operation in regard to border towns. Similar conditions obtain in connexion with polling booths. At other border towns, a polling booth may be in New South Wales, and the nearest polling booth in. Queensland may be 60 miles away. The provisions of the Electoral Act prevent Queensland residents from voting at the local polling booth across the border. A new policy in the department would remedy most of these troubles, and I hope that the Minister will establish it. It is impossible to send a telegram f rom most country post offices after 1 o'clock on Saturdays, no matter how urgent the message may be. {: .speaker-KZF} ##### Mr Lane: -- The same applies to Sydney. {: .speaker-KIO} ##### Mr HUNTER: -- No; a message can be sent from Sydney at double rates I suggest to the Minister that the department should, allow a customer to hand is. a telegram, and have the message sent by telephone. A boy or girl in attendance at a small post office should be able to accept a telegram at any time on a Saturday or Sunday, and transmit the messageby telephone. If the answer given by the department is that this would be contrary to the present policy of the department, [ claim that a new policy should be introduced. {: .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr Riordan: -- A good, country policy is needed. {: .speaker-KIO} ##### Mr HUNTER: -- That is so. I also ask the Minister to consider the excessive charges imposed for telephone services when subscribers reside from 50 to 100 miles from an exchange. In many cases, the telegraph line runs past their properties, and if they desire to utilize the department's poles for telephone purposes, they have to pay a rental of 30s. a mile. Men in the country whose properties arc situated 50 miles from a post office receive telephone rent bills amounting to as much as £80 a year. There may be a number of subscribers in a given district who are charged 30s. a mile for the use of the government telegraph poles, and the department may receive from them almost sufficient rental in one year to defray the cost of erecting the line. My constituents urge that these rentals should be reduced. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr Thorby: -- A nominal charge only should be imposed. {: .speaker-KIO} ##### Mr HUNTER: -- Of course. Referonce -was made in this chamber recently to the introduction of telephone instruments of a new type, for use in the capital cities. The Minister stated that tenders had been called for 1,000 of these instruments, and I ascertained that the sum expended in purchasing them was sufficient to provide ten new mail services in the back country. The depart ment should not incur extravagant expenditure in providing fancy telephones for city people, when settlers outback have to travel 40 or 50 miles for their mails. Many of them do not receive even weekly mails. Some of them have a mail only once a fortnight, and they may have to travel up to 60 miles to collect a mail that has been carried for 200 miles. Rain, of which they have had no warning, may have fallen 300 or 500 miles away, and caused a flood in a river, with the result that the mail does not arrive from the rail head. Perhaps after waiting for a whole day in the hope that the mailman will appear, they return to their holdings, and they do not know exactly when the mail will reach them. When they return a fortnight later, they may have a similar experience. Many of the mail services in the far distant parts of my electorate have been curtailed. ' In no cases have extensions been granted, although additional services are needed in districts where settlement has increased, through the subdivision of large stations. The reply that I have received to requests for additional services has been that no money is available for that purpose. Yet the Government can find money with which to purchase fancy telephones for city subscribers ! I recollect on one occasion hearing an honorable member from a Queensland metropolitan electorate complain that somebody had to walk about a quarter of a mile to a telephone office; but I point out that Birdsville settlers have to travel 200 miles to the nearest public telephone. In the far south-western corner of Queensland, my constituents are served by mails from Adelaide. A large area of Queensland is entirely without a mail service, and yet it is settled, though, of course, in large areas. It should be possible to serve all the residents of Queensland by local mail services, instead of by means of mails from other States, and in so doing serve others who are at present without a mail service. I desire to draw special attention to the need for the erection of a copper telephone line in place of the present galvanized iron line from Cunnamulla to Barrengun, a distance of 70 miles. From Barrengun to Bourke, there is a copper line which extends through to Sydney. The provision of the line that I have indicated would shorten the telephone route to Sydney from 1,300 to 600 miles. This request has been refused; but I urge the present Postmaster-General to read the correspondence on the matter extending over the last ten years. For reasons of its own, the department insists on the business going through Brisbane. Stock and station agents are the chief users of the trunk line at Cunnamulla. The stock in that part of Queensland is continually moving south into New South Wales, and the present unsatisfactory telephone service has a detrimental effect on business. I also direct the Minister's attention to what occurred a few years ago when the department appointed a so-called economy board, which visited every post office. Some of the recommendations of that board were so drastic as to be inhuman. It proposed that all night services should be supplied under contract. The idea was to offer a boy working, for instance, in a stock and station agent's office throughout the day, 15s. or £1 a week if he would sleep at the post office in order to attend to telephone calls, and during his spare time, collect the mails left at the local railway stations as the trains went through. That is a sample of one of the proposals of this board, which made several other equally ridiculous suggestions. If the present Postmaster-General were to peruse its report, the contents would open his eyes. A mistake is made at the present time in terminating a mail service at a given point, when, if it were continued for probably another ten miles, it would provide postal facilities for, perhaps, an additional 20 or 30 families. Yet we are told that no money is available for extensions of this nature. Mail contract prices throughout the western area of Queensland are now cut to the bone. I fail to understand how any mail contractor can do the work at the present rates. His only hope of earning a living is to pick up goods in the towns, and deliver them to the country people. The prices now paid by the department are utterly inadequate. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr Stacey: -- Are not the mail contracts let by tender? {: .speaker-KIO} ##### Mr HUNTER: -- Tenders are called, and the prices are cut to such an extent that the department is receiving services at rates which cannot possibly pay the contractors. I now propose to refer to town deliveries of mails. I was surprised some time ago, when I visited Victoria, to notice that almost every small town had a local delivery. In Avoca, there were two town deliveries daily; but in my electorate I cannot obtain a local delivery for towns twice the size of Avoca. There is a general demand now through- >Out the country for new post offices. The department has determined that when a new post office was built in a country town it will not build a residence for the postmaster. But, unfortunately, in country towns residences are not avail able for renting. People do not build houses on the chance of being able to rent them to the postmaster. In a large city it is always possible to rent a house, but this is not so in country towns. Quilpie is a town situated at the rail head, 630 miles from Brisbane. The Brisbane train arrives at 11 o'clock at night, and a large number of mail services are despatched from the town next day. The bags have to be sorted and distributed to the mailmen, who leave between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the morning. One can imagine how busy the office must be. Notwithstanding that postal inspectors have frequently recommended that improved accommodation be provided, the building is still totally inadequate for thu needs of the place. The Government owns a good site upon which a new office could be erected, but the work has not been undertaken because, it is stated, no money is available. This is the sort of place at which the department considers that no residence for the postmaster should be erected. I should like the Postmaster-General to visit the country districts, and see for himself what conditions are like in the outback. I am glad that, as Minister for the Interior, he made a trip through the back country, because he must have learned something of the conditions that prevail in the more remote districts, such as those represented by the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr.** Riordan) and myself. {: #subdebate-13-0-s84 .speaker-KYH} ##### Mr PRICE:
Boothby .It seems to me that in this debate there is a grave danger that honorable members may be led into pitting country against city, and I must deprecate any such tendency. Although I represent a suburban electorate, I can assure honorable members that I understand the conditions in the outback. I understand also the hardship imposed by charging a rental of 30s. a mile on country telephone lines. I happen to have a farm myself, so that I appreciate the needs of country districts. Our policy should be to help both the country and the city, and if the new Minister will set himself to carry out that policy he will render a service to the Commonwealth. I trust that the present PostmasterGeneral will have at his disposal more money for providing postal facilities than his predecessors had. At the present time, the people both in the city and the country are starving for improved postal facilities. When more money becomes available I trust that the department will be able to re-employ those men who have been dismissed from the service, and engage them for the work of providing improved facilities for the public. I desire to direct the attention of the Minister to the need for revising the fees charged to the owners of wireless sets. The present fee is 24s. for those in zone 1, that is within a radius of 250 miles of an A class station, while a fee of 17s. 6d. is charged for those in zone 2; which includes all places outside the 250- miles radius. The department is receiving over £400,000 a year in revenue from these fees. I urge that more consideration should be shown to the owners of crystal sets. The Minister might recommend to the newly-appointed Broadcasting Commission that the owners of crystal sets should be charged a licence-fee of not more than 10s. a year. The owner of a valve set can have a party in. his house, and every one can enjoy the music coming over the wireless, but the crystal set is only a oneman instrument. Moreover, the crystal, sets are generally owned by those who are not well enough off to buy valve sets, and some relief should be afforded to them. {: #subdebate-13-0-s85 .speaker-K4X} ##### Mr NOCK:
Riverina .- I desire to' direct the attention of the Minister to the salaries being paid to officers in his department. I do not desire to pick out any particular officer, as was done when we were considering the vote for another department; but I do suggest that, some of the salaries being paid to executive officers are unnecessarily high. I admit that the Postal Department is a large one, and that, with a revenue of £32,000,000 a year, some skill is required of the officers in control. I recognize that important positions justify adequate salaries; but we have to consider whether, in some instances, we are not paying more than the positions warrant. To begin, the secretary of the department receives £4,000 a year, less, of course, the 22-j per .cent, reduction, which applies also to the other salaries I shall quote. There are six engineers and inspectors, who receive £6,800, or an average of over £1,100 each. Then there are six deputydirectors, whose salaries amount to £6,514, or more than £1,000 each. In New South Wales there are eight other officers whose salaries average £926 ; there are eight in Victoria who average £900 each; seven in Queensland who average £800; eight in South Australia who average £740; seven in Western Australia who average £710 ; and seven in Tasmania who average £600. There are 52 of these highly-paid officers, and 63 others whose average salaries are between £450 and £600. When we remember that, in addition to these salaries, the officers receive travelling allowances when they are required to travel, it is evident that they are well remunerated as compared with, say, members of this Parliament, who control the industrial, social and financial policy of Australia. The allowances of members of Parliament have now been reduced to £750 a year, out of which they have to pay their own travelling expenses, - with the exception of actual rail fares - and their election expenses also. In my opinion, a number of these highly-paid positions should be brought under review, and if economies are to be made, the heads of various departments, including the Postal Department, should have their salaries reduced, for high administrative costs are responsible for high charges to the public. Honorable members have repeatedly stated that, whenever requests may be made for the extension of services, the department has always turned them down on the ground that no money is available. Last year, I believe, the Deputy PostmasterGeneral was instructed that no new services were to be -provided which would cost more than £20. This year the amount has been increased to £25, so that, if a country subscriber desires a service, the installation of which will cost more than that sum, he must contribute the balance himself. Even though he may be able to obtain a refund for three subsequent years against charges, if the revenue for those three years does not cover what he has spent he loses the difference. The present arrangement is neither equitable nor business-like. The PostmasterGeneral has a good grip of business matters, and I hope that he will give personal consideration to this matter. The honorable member for Calare **(Mr. Thorby)** dealt in some detail with our wireless service, but he missed one point. For very many years, Australia's connexion with the other side of the world was by submarine cable, the service being provided by a monopoly which has invested many millions of capital in plant and equipment, but has been subject to a measure of control in regard to charges. Since the advent of the wireless, the position has altered. To-day, messages may be transmitted overseas by either wireless or cable. But while wireless messages may be sent at a minimum charge of from ls. 8d. a word, the minimum charge for cable messages is 2s. a word. The company operating tha cable service would be glad if it could charge less, but it is prevented by regulations from doing so. I hope the PostmasterGeneral will remove the barrier to the reduction of charges. I wish now to refer to the charges for telegrams. It is 32 years since federation was consummated, and all disabilities associated with border towns and districts should have been removed long ago. But it still costs ls. 4d. to send a telegram from Albury to Wodonga, because a socalled border has to be crossed, although a message may be sent from Albury to Wallangarra or to Broken Hill for ls. This is not equitable. The request of the honorable member for Calare for a review of the conditions applicable to party telephone lines is entirely justified, and I support it. For many years the policy of the department in this respect has been determined by the Deputy Postmasters-General of the various States, but I hope that the new Postmaster-General will himself determine the policy. The collection of accounts for party lines by the first subscriber on the line has resulted in many disputes and disagreements between neighbours. Sometimes, the accounts' of the other parties on the line are left unpaid for a long while, and sometimes they are never paid. There should be no difficulty whatever in sending out individual accounts. If this were done, and the accounts were not paid within the stipulated time, the exchange concerned could refuse to connect the defaulting' subscribers. For many years, conferences of the Farmers and Settlers Association have passed resolutions on this subject, but successive Postmasters-General have refused to accede to the requests made to them. In many districts of New South Wales, subscribers on party lines would prefer to have separate accounts, even though the furnishing of them might result in a slightly added charge to cover the cost to the department. Only this week, I received a letter which conveyed to me a resolution unanimously agreed to by the Walbundrie District Council, which read as follows: - >That owing to the unsatisfactory reply received from the Postmaster-General's Department in regard to the request for rendering and collecting accounts from individual subscribers on party lines, the PostmasterGeneral be approached requesting him to give further consideration to the matter. It i3 also suggested that to recompense the department for the extra work incurred, a small additional charge be made. In view of the fact that the PostmasterGeneral's Department made a profit of £637,000 last year, it should render better service to the people than it is giving at present. As the department has a monopoly, everything possible should be dona to give the people the facilities for which they are willing to pay. Many applications for telephone connexion have been refused in the last year or two, but as the Government is anticipating a profit of £940,000 from the department this year, refusals should cease. I wish to refer briefly to the subject of duplication of services. Honorable members do a great deal of railway travelling, and must have noticed that frequently two sets of poles and two groups of lines run parallel with the railway, one being inside and the other outside the railway fence. This means much duplication in the electrical and supervising staffs and in various other ways. The PostmasterGeneral's Department and the Railway Department should co-operate in eliminating duplication of this kind. We have heard something during the discussion of these Estimates about duplication in the Health Department and the Forestry Department. Here we have it in another department. I trust that the PostmasterGeneral will use every effort to remove the ground for complaints in respect to this department. {: #subdebate-13-0-s86 .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL:
Darwin .- I take this opportunity to bring under the notice of the Postmaster-General **(Mr. Parkhill)** several matters of importance, not only to my electorate and the State from which I come, but to the Commonwealth generally. I shall refer first to the very great need of telephonic communication between Tasmania and the mainland. This subject has been discussed in Parliament on many occasions. When a deputation requested the last Postmaster-General **(Mr. Fenton)** to provide this facility, its members were informed that money was not available for. the purpose,* but it was not denied that the request was justifiable. Of- all the disabilities under which Tasmania labours, the lack of adequate communication is perhaps the greatest. Every capital city in the Commonwealth, with the exception of Hobart, has direct telephonic communication with every other capital city, and every district on the mainland has telephonic communication with every other district. Tasmania alone is isolated. Since I first entered this Parliament, I have, in season and out of season, advocated the provision of telephonic communication between Tasmania and the mainland, and I hope that this Government will provide it as soon as possible. It may be said that such a service would be beneficial only to Tasmania; but we must remember that there are two ends to every telephone line. Undoubtedly the people of Tasmania would benefit from the provision of the service, but so also would the business community of the mainland. Tasmania does her chief trade with Melbourne and Sydney. Practically the whole of the trade of the north-west coast of Tasmania is with those two cities. I suppose the bulk of our products marketed in Australia are sold in Sydney. Obviously it would be of very great advantage to the trading community if direct communication by word of mouth were possible between buyers and sellers. Last year the Public Works Committee made an exhaustive inquiry into the proposal to establish telephonic communication between Tasmania and the mainland, and unanimously recommended that a cable be laid to provide the service. While the honorable member for Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** was Postmaster-General, tenders were invited for a wireless telephonic service; but although several tenders were received, none was accepted, probably because it was realized that wireless telephonic communication might not be entirely satisfactory. In any case the Public Works Committee last year recommended the laying of a cable to provide this service. {: .speaker-KWC} ##### Mr Thorby: -- Could not the existing submarine cable be converted for telephonic use? {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- I am informed that this would not be possible, though not being an engineer I cannot give the reasons why. The Public Works Committee estimated that the cost of laying the cable would be £180,000. Compared with the amounts spent by many of our Commonwealth departments in other directions, this is not a tremendous sum. Although the service might not be fully reproductive in the first year or two, it would certainly pay its way very soon after it was in operation. I believe that the estimate of revenue upon which the Public Works Committee based its calculations was too low. The provision of a telephonic service of this kind would be valuable, not only to the business interests of Tasmania and the mainland, but also to tourists who go to Tasmania in large numbers at certain periods of the year. The lack of these facilities has, I believe, prevented many people from enjoying the tourist attractions of Tasmania. I earnestly plead with the Postmaster-General to find the money to establish this service. It has surprised me that in the last two or three years when so much money has been spent on the relief of unemployment, a work of this kind, which could truly be called reproductive, has not been put in hand. Every penny spent in making this connexion would provide work of some kind, and as the provision of the service is the responsibility of the Postmaster-General's Department, there should be no need for further delay in establishing it. I plead with the Postmaster-General to make an endeavour to supply this service, to which the people of Tasmania are entitled. I know that the department is sympathetically inclined, but that is not sufficient. There is another matter which affects my own district, which is an important part of Tasmania. For years there was a daily mail service to the west coast, the mining fields of Tasmania, but, because of the decline in the value of metals, and the fact that the Rosebery field is not operating, two trains per week on that service were abolished. The railway line that serves the west coast is in part a private one owned by the Emu Bay Railway Company. There is also a connecting government line to the port of Strahan, and another private line to Queenstown, owned by the Mount Lyell Company. As a result of the Emu Bay Railway Company cutting out those two trains a week, the subsidy, amounting to about £150 a year, has been withdrawn. Prom time to time I have urged that company to re-establish the daily mail service, which could be done by running a rail motor. This, they tell me, they are now prepared to do for a couple of months, until Christmas time, as an experiment. I have no doubt that the £150 subsidy will be restored; but I urge the Postmaster-General to give favorable consideration to the granting of an additional subsidy, in order that the daily service may be made secure. The company estimates that it will sustain a loss of about £700 a year. It does not ask that the whole of the loss should be made good; but it is entitled to a little more subsidy to recoup some portion of the deficit. There is now a road from Queenstown to Hobart, along which the Postmaster-General's Department is having first»class mail matter transported to Hobart; but the direct service is by rail, and the interstate mails must go that way. The Mount Lyell Company has continued operating during the depression, although Copper has dropped from £80 to £25 a ton. Had other great businesses acted similarly, there would be no need for the' Commonwealth and States to provide nearly so much money for unemployment relief. For that reason alone, that community is entitled to special consideration. In addition to Queenstown the important' towns of Zeehan, Rosebery, Tullah and Strahan are affected. From time to time it has been claimed that the administration of the PostmasterGeneral's Department is most efficient. Its head is well paid. I have no comment to make on that. I like to see those who are efficient and energetic well remunerated for their service. I suggest that the reason why so much interest is manifested in the estimates of this department is that the Postmaster-General is newlyappointed, and it is hoped that many of the defects of the past will now be rectified. I wish tq refer to the transport of mails between Tasmania and the mainland. There is a costly subsidized shipping service, which is reasonably good. But it is of little use to have a costly service if the officers of the department do not do their part. On two different occasions I have complained to the Director of Posts and Telegraphs that mail posted in Melbourne for Tasmania is delayed regularly, simply because the sorters in the Melbourne post office are either careless or do not know the boat upon which the mail should travel. It is reasonable to expect those officers to know the geography of Tasmania, the bags into which letters should be put, and the first boat going to the island State. They should know the location of such important seaports as Devonport, Ulverstone, Burnie, Wynyard, Stanley and Smithton, all of which are in my electorate. But apparently they do not, for letters posted in Melbourne in the ordinary way are delayed and do not reach their destination until days after they should do so. My complaint is based on personal experience, not on hearsay. Regularly letters which I post on the mainland are delayed. Prior to my return home during the recent recess of one week, I posted a letter at Canberra on the Tuesday. A boat leaves for Tasmania on Thursday, via Launceston, and another on Friday direct for the port of Burnie, my nearest town. I left by the latter, arrived home on Saturday morning, and left again on Monday. The letter posted in Canberra on the previous Tuesday had not arrived when I left, but reached my home later that same day. That is not a singular occurrence. It has happened on numerous occasions. Many others have made similar complaints to me, and I brought the matter under the notice of the Director of Posts and Telegraphs, who replied that his records indicate that very few complaints have been received on the subject. That proves nothing. On one occasion it was suggested that I should direct my letters via the *Oonah.* I declared that it was foolish to suggest such a remedy. In the first place all the people in the Commonwealth do not know by which boat the letters should go, and in the_ next case if I addressed my letters via the *Oonah* there might, at the time, be a more expeditious delivery. If the sorters in Melbourne do not know the geography of Tasmania, some Tasmanian sorters should be transferred to the Victorian capital to instruct their fellows. Within reason, those residing in even the smallest towns are entitled to the same postal facilities that are granted to others in more populous centres. Every member of this committee appeal's to be hopeful that the new Postmaster-General will remedy many of the faults that have existed in the past. We do not sit up all night for the sake of hearing our own voices. We want to impress the new Postmaster-General with these grievances, so that he may give them his attention. Nobody is more closely in touch with honorable members than he, and no . department is more closely in touch with the people of the Commonwealth than that which he controls. {: #subdebate-13-0-s87 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .The Postmaster-General has under his charge what is probably the biggest business concern under the control of the Commonwealth Government. During the regime of the Bruce-Page Government more money was spent on postal services than had been spent during the whole of the previous years since federation. Times were prosperous, and money was thro mi about lavishly. During that term nearly £20,000,000 was spent in bringing the postal, telegraphic and telephonic services up to date. A great and costly organization was built up. I have not gone closely into the figures, but I venture the opinion that the expansion of the department in recent years is not within 10 per cent, of what it was during that time. Yet all the saving that can be suggested to-day is a decrease of approximately 2£ per cent, in the expenditure, and when we ask for an important mail service or an ex tension of a telephone service we are informed that the finances of the country do not permit of that being done. Here is a huge concern capable of handling infinitely more business than it does, run at an expenditure almost as great as when it was spending the £20,000,000 odd a year to which I have referred. Only yesterday I received a communication, which I posted to the Postmaster-General, in which people in the outback appealed for an extension of their mail service. They deserve to have their request granted. The Postal Department should be a service to the community, not a taxing machine. That is the position in all other countries, and particularly in the United States of America. "I have always opposed the practice of paying the profits of the Postal Department into Consolidated Revenue. I contend that any surplus at the end of the year should be the extent to which the Government would offer further facilities to the people requiring service. People in the cities hardly realize the necessity of telegraphic and telephonic communication to those in the outback portions of Australia. In recent times it has been difficult for those on the land to meet their telephone charges, because of the low prices which their products bring on the world's markets. The Postal Department should be infinitely more generous to them, particularly when it has a staff that must in many cases ' be idle. I hope that the Government will heed what has been said by different members, not only on this, but also on other items of the Estimates. The committee has dealt sympathetically with the Government, but it has very clearly intimated that it is not satisfied with the 2^ per cent, reduction in the management expenses of this great business concern at a time like the present. {: #subdebate-13-0-s88 .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- The remarks of members of the Country party must have impressed the Postmaster-General with the necessity for giving earnest attention to this matter of party line charges. An incident was brought to my notice by a constituent of mine who took a property in the vicinity of Walgett. He complained bitterly because the head of a party line that crossed his property declined to allow him to connect with it. He is a medical man, and went to the country to recuperate and enjoy a well-earned rest. Having special cases in the city, he wished to be available at short notice. Upon the refusal of the head of the line to allow him to connect with it, he appealed to the postal officials, but they informed him that he must make his arrangements with the head of the party line. He retaliated, therefore, by insisting that the party line be removed from his property within a specified period. The head of the line then proposed to erect it along a roadway that was leased through the property. He visited Sydney, and made representations to the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs there, who referred him to the State Department of Lands, which issued the permit for the line to be erected along the roadway. He endeavoured to prevail on that department to make it a condition that the head of the line should not stand in the way of his obtaining this necessary service. This case illustrates the friction that is likely to be caused by party lines in the country. If the Minister takes action in response to 111Y representations, I shall be repaid for my exertions in connexion with the matter. The honorable member for Riverina **(Mr. Nock)** said that there are too many highly-paid officials in this department, and that the number should be reduced. This is the one business undertaking under government control that pays its way. I commend the Deputy Director in Sydney, **Mr. Kitto,** as a real live man, who is keenly conscious of the possibility of expanding the activities of the department. A little while ago, he propounded a scheme that would have stimulated the printing industry in the city, given additional benefits to retail stores, and incidentally helped the people in the outhack. It was, to label catalogues and guarantee the certain delivery of them. The department was able to do this, because it had all the names and addresses necessary. But an outcry was raised in the city by certain individuals who evidently feared that private enterprise was being attacked, and the proposal had to be abandoned. The Minister should investigate that matter. Private enterprise would not be harmed, but on the contrary, the printing industry in particular would be stimulated. Under existing conditions the addresses on the files of different big firms which send out catalogues are often out of date, and their distribution is thus curtailed. Honorable members have praised the present Postmaster-General's administration while Minister of the Department of the Interior, and have expressed the hope that he will take as keen an interest in the big business undertaking that he is now controlling. "With his organizing ability and business training, he may give its activities a much needed fillip. I commend to him the request of the municipality of Woollahra, in my electorate, for the establishment of a small branch of the main post office at Edgecliff, in the Double Bay area, where there is a fairly big business centre. This would be of considerable benefit to the residents of Bellevue Hill and Double Bay, and increase substantially the revenue of the department. The municipality considers it so necessary that it has offered to place premises at the disposal of the department for twelve months. It is convinced that the increase of revenue would warrant the establishment of a permanent post office in the district. I wish to defend the absent Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart),** against whom certain insinuations have been made by the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Beasley),** which carried greater sting because they were veiled. If the honorable member considers that any charge can be levelled, he should make it. in a straightout, manly way while the Minister is present. Honorable members are aware of the straightforward attitude that is adopted by this Minister when his public duties conflict with his business interests. He is not lacking in the milk of human kindness, and hi.s liberality is unquestionable. He has sacrificed his private interests to enter public life, whereas those who make veiled insinuations against him have possibly improved their monetary position by becoming members of parliament. It was insinuated that the position of the honorable member for Parramatta in the Cabinet gave him the necessary pull to secure for **Mr. Chappie,** an officer of 2CH broadcasting station, a position with the Australian Broadcasting Commission. Honorable members must know as well as I do, that **Mr. Chappie** was merely an employee of 2CH. His severance from them would probably be of disadvantage to them, because they would lose the services of a first-rate man. An employer may wish well a man who leaves his service to better his position, and yet be very sorry to lose him. I have no doubt that **Mr. Chappie** won the position in open competition, and that he has left 2CH the poorer for losing him. Other insinuations were levelled at the Minister because, as chairman of Australian National Airways, he sought certain definite business concessions from the Government. It is not necessary that a man, upon entering public life, should dissociate himself entirely from all his business ventures, so long as he devotes his time and energy to the work that he undertakes to perform. The honorable member for Parramatta not only has endeavoured to dispose of his interests outside his parliamentary life, but, I have no doubt, is quite willing to resign from the chairmanship of Australian National Airways if he finds that his association with that concern conflicts with his duty as a Minister. Knowing the honorable gentleman as I do. I can say that scandal will never attach to his name. Nothing of the nature of such scandal as has been associated with the party to which the honorable member who made the insinuations belongs will ever be connected with the present Commonwealth Ministry. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- What scandal is that? {: .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- I refer to scandals concerning tin hares, bread contracts, and other matters, that have been associated with the Lang faction in New South Wales. I hope that the representations made by the Woollahra Municipal Council will receive early consideration. {: #subdebate-13-0-s89 .speaker-K0D} ##### Mr COLLINS:
Hume .I entirely agree with the remarks of the honorable member for. Calare **(Mr. Thorby)** with reference to the economy in capital expenditure and line maintenance that would be effected if, instead of dupli cating telegraph and telephone line services along certain main routes, telephone wires were affixed to telegraph poles. Ever since I have been a member of this House the residents at Gregadoo, a wheat-growing area near Wagga, have been agitating for a telephone service, but have been informed by the Deputy Postmaster-General that no funds are available for the necessary telephone posts. Surely this is one instance in which there could, with advantage, be cooperation between the postal and railway departments. Another matter to which I direct the Minister's attention is the imminence of fire risk due to the great growth of grass throughout the south and south-western portion of the State as the dangerous period approaches. I hope that the department will take all steps necessary to render prompt and efficient warning to the people in country areas wherever it may be called upon to help. I am aware that a petition has been forwarded to the Deputy PostmasterGeneral in Sydney with reference to this subject, andI now bring it under the notice of the Minister in the hope that it will receive early attention. I was sorry to hear the honorable member for Boothby **(Mr. Price)** raise the issue, country versus city interests. We members of the Country party have no thought of that in our, minds when we are making representations in the interests of the people whom we represent. On the contrary, it is our sincere desire to work in cooperation with the representatives of all sections in the interests of the people generally. {: #subdebate-13-0-s90 .speaker-JPP} ##### Mr BLACKLOW:
Franklin -- I congratulate the PostmasterGeueral **(Mr. Parkhill)** upon his promotion to a senior portfolio in the Cabinet. I feel sure that he will administer his new department with that sympathy and understanding which characterized his administration of the Department of the Interior, and that he will render a distinct service to the people of this country. Speaking on behalf of the State of Tasmania and its island dependencies, I express surprise and disappointment that whenever governmental economies are made, the people living furthest from the larger centres are usually the first to suffer. The islands in close proximity to my State depend entirely for their means of communication upon local steamship services which receive some help from the Postal Department in the carriage of mails. As there is now only a weekly mail service to Maria Island, the people living there are more or less isolated. ' The honorable member for Boothby **(Mr. Price)** referred to the conflict between the interests of country and city dwellers. People living in the country, I remind him, have to pay for every service rendered to them. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- And they do not get two mail deliveries a day. {: .speaker-JPP} ##### Mr BLACKLOW: -- In. some districts they are lucky if they get a mail service once a week. The officials in charge of country telephone exchanges with ten or a dozen subscribers are rendering an excellent service to the Commonwealth for a mere pittance in the way of remuneration. Although the official hours for country exchanges are from 9 a.m. to 12 noon, and from 1 p.m. to 5 p.m., the officials in charge are at the beck and call of country people at all hours. After official hours country telephone subscribers have to pay an opening fee, and pay extra for any calls made. Why should people whose business it is to develop this country, always be penalized in this way? At Sorrell there is a continuous telephone service, provided the revenue is £250 a year. When receipts fall below that amount the people in the district have to make good the difference. As the revenue during the last three or four years has been below £250, I and other telephone subscribers in the Sorrell district have been called upon to pay extra taxation to the amount of £20 or £30. The total expenditure of this department for the last three years has declined by £1,812,649, as compared with a decrease of revenue of only £374,000, so that the department is £1,500,000 to the good. It would appear that while the Commonwealth Government is making big cuts in expenditure, it is not easing the burden on the people who should have the first consideration. I hope that the Postmaster-General will give attention to the matters which I have mentioned, and see if he can meet us in some way. The people of Tasmania were pleased to have the assurance of the former Postmaster-General **(Mr. Fenton)** that arrangements were in hand to erect an A-grade regional wireless station. We have waited a long time for the improvement of our wireless service, and we must be thankful for small mercies. I hope that there will be no delay in putting this work in hand. {: #subdebate-13-0-s91 .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr WARD:
East Sydney -- I was impressed with the figures quoted by the honorable member for Riverina **(Mr. Nock),** with reference to the salaries paid to the higher officers in the Commonwealth Public Service, and particularly the salary paid to the Secretary and Director of Posts and Telegraphs, who receives £4,000, less reductions under the Financial Emergency Act, £1,000, or a total of £3,000. This is really an enormous amount compared with salaries paid to senior officers in other departments. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- He has been offered more outside. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr WARD: -- Perhaps the same may be said of other public servants. In any case whether they remain in the Service or not when they are offered something better is their own concern. The honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. E. J. Harrison)** said that the PostmasterGeneral's Department is one of the few undertakings controlled by the Government which is showing a profit. We should, however, examine the position to see how it is possible to make the department pay better. Surely the honorable member for Wentworth, who claims to have business ability, although he. may not possess it, does not suggest that a few highly-paid officials in the department are the only ones responsible for making the undertaking a success. As a matter of fact, the large surplus shown at the end of the financial year was made possible by the sacrifices and the efforts of lower-paid employees. So anxious was the Government to effect economies particularly at the cost of those in receipt of wages, that it set aside the determination of the Public Service Arbitrator in order to pay rates below the basic wage. {: #subdebate-13-0-s92 .speaker-JOS} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Mr Bell: -- The honorable member will not be in order in discussing that matter on the Estimates. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr WARD: -- I move- >That the item "Secretary. £4,000", be reduced by £500. I do not think that that is an enormous amount to ask this officer to forgo, seeing that if his salary were reduced to the extent I have mentioned, he would, after allowing for the reduction under the financial emergency legislation, still be in receipt of £2,500 a year, which is in excess of that paid to other highly-paid officials in other departments of equal importance. There are some who say that we should not single out one officer in this respect; but the salary paid to this officer is obviously too high. The department has pruned expenditure in other directions, and in order to effect economies, has reduced to an unnecessarily low level the rates of workers in receipt of low wages. I direct the attention of the committee to the fact that in effecting economies the department withdrew the protection afforded to postal officials who handle large sums of money, and, who, in so doing, often endanger their lives. As a result of the William-street hold-up, with which honorable members are familiar, one officer has unfortunately lost his eyesight. This was the official who was concerned about twelve months previously in a similar incident, when pepper was thrown in his eyes. It was once the practice of the department to provide officers carrying large sums of money with motor transport, in order to afford them some protection; but the Government, in its economy scheme, has dispensed with motor cars, and, as a result, this unfortunate employee has lost his eyesight. In view of these circumstances it is reasonable to propose that the salary of the secretary should be reduced by £500. I wish to reply to the statement of the honorable member for Wentworth that the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Beasley)** had made certain insinuations against the Minister for Commerce **(Mr. Stewart).** The honorable member for Wentworth said that any one who knew the Minister for Commerce would not believe that he would use his position to assist him in his private business. Honorable members are aware that aldermen holding positions in city or suburban municipal councils are not allowed to be in any way associated with business deals with the councils of which they are members. These men are just as honest as the Minister for Commerce is reputed to be. No one suggests dishonesty, but in order that there shall be no shadow of suspicion, the Minister should pay some regard to the fact that in the instances I have mentioned, the law provides that persons holding public positions shall not have dealings with outside bodies. The honorable member for Wentworth, who talks about successful business men and their liberality, said that some honorable members on this side had improved their financial position by securing election to this chamber. He indicated that some honorable members opposite had made sacrifices to enter public life, but I suggest that, in becoming a member of this Parliament, the honorable member for Wentworth has not made any sacrifice. There are thousands of persons outside who would be only too willing to make the sacrifice which the honorable member for Wentworth alleges has been made. Why all this hypocrisy? {: #subdebate-13-0-s93 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I would not allow the honorable member for Wentworth to discuss the subject which the honorable member is now debating, and I, therefore, ask him to confine his remarks to the Estimates. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr WARD: -- I trust, that in view of the facts which I have placed before the committee, honorable members will seriously consider reducing the salary of the secretary of the department by £500 a year. {: #subdebate-13-0-s94 .speaker-KIX} ##### Mr HUTCHINSON:
Indi -- I, too, wish to congratulate the PostmasterGeneral **(Mr. Archdale Parkhill)** upon his promotion to the position he now occupies. He distinguished himself by his wise administration of the Department of the Interior, and I believe that he will achieve similar success in his present important office, following as he does in the steps of a worthy predecessor, the honorable member for Maribyrnong **(Mr. Fenton).** During the last two years, country telephone services have been considerably reduced. It appears to me that government departments act in a way contrary to that followed by private individuals, who, in periods of financial stress, endeavour to bring the services they provide, or the goods they sell, within the purchasing power of the people, and so to induce them to use them more extensively. Government departments, however, in the same circumstances increase the cost of the services they provide, and reduce their frequency. As the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Collins)** has said, the telephone service is of great value in country districts, and during the summer season, it is particularly needed for the reporting of outbreaks of bush fires. Country telephones are more than a convenience; they are an absolute necessity. At present, country telephone services can be extended for two hours when the revenue of an office exceeds £150 a year, and a continuous service will be made available when the annual revenue exceeds £200. But while the department grants an additional two hours' service at a cost of approximately £20 - which is at the rate of £5 per half hour - when the revenue reaches £150 a year, if the revenue happens to be only £147 no extension of the service will be given. In my opinion, a sliding scale should be introduced This would be a boon to many country people who, unlike city dwellers generally, leave home before the local telephone office is opened and do not return until it is closed. An extension of an hour or two after 6 o'clock in the evening would be a great boon to them, and I feel that the department would be amply repaid if it were to grant additional service on a sliding scale. At, one time it was the custom to provide a letter delivery at country post offices on public holidays, with the exception of Good Friday and Christmas Day; but owing to the financial stringency this delivery has, in most eases, been eliminated. I have received complaints from tourist resort's of the inconvenience experienced through the adsence of a letter delivery on public holidays. The restoration of this convenience would be greatly appreciated, not only by tourists, but by country residents generally. In my district telephone wires are erected on poles alongside the railway line, and also on posts along roads which run parallel to the railway line. A few years ago all the telephone wires were erected on the posts under the control of the Railway Department, but for some reason of which I am not aware, these wires were removed and a new line erected alongside the road, thus causing unnecessary duplication. This indicates that there is not the co-ordination between the Postal Department and the Railways Department that there should be. Proper inquiries should be made before such changes are made, in order to save unnecessary expense. I trust that it will not be long before the automatic telephone system will be introduced into country districts wherever practicable. {: #subdebate-13-0-s95 .speaker-K9A} ##### Mr GANDER:
Reid .- I have called upon the Postmaster-General in his office and placed before him the desires of the people of the Reid electorate for improved postal and telephone facilities, and he has promised to do his utmost to grant them. I shall defer my congratulations to him until I know that the new post offices have been built and the increased facilities for which I have asked have been provided. From the Town Clerk of Bankstown, one of the most important municipalities in New South Wales, I have received the following letter: - >My council has directed me to request that you please make representations to tho PostmasterGeneral's Department to have a full-time automatic telephone exchange established j>i Padstow Park. > >Under the present system residents of that district are caused much inconvenience and expense. It is understood that after A p.m. on week days, 1 p.m. on Saturdays, on Sundays and holidays, subscribers are required to pay ls. Gd. per call in addition tn the usual call charge. > >There is a very popular pleasure resort within the area served by this exchange, which necessitates the provision of an expeditious telephone service, in order to facilitate communications in cases of accidents, sickness, &c., and it is considered that an automatic exchange would facilitate communications in such cases. I commend this matter to the earnest attention of the Postmaster-General. With all the other requests I have placed before the honorable gentleman I shall not weary the committee at this hour, in view of .the fact that he has promised to inquire into each of them. I have asked for additional postal facilities at East Hills and Broadway, Enfield. At the latter place a new post office is desired. In regard to this request I have been co-operating with the Minister for Health **(Mr. Marr),** and I hope that the new post office will be built. I have also submitted to the PostmasterGeneral a letter from **Mr. Edwards,** of Punchbowl, another important place in my electorate, and the honorable gentleman has promised to inquire into the matter raised therein. I rely on the Minister to carry out his promises to improve the postal, telegraphic and telephone services of the people. {: #subdebate-13-0-s96 .speaker-KZF} ##### Mr LANE:
Barton .- I endorse the remarks of the honorable member for Reid regarding the need for a telephone at Georges River. I have several times applied for one to be installed at Lugano Park and I hope that, with the assistance of the honorable member, this convenience will be obtained. Deputations have asked the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs to establish a post office at Allawah. Thousands of people travel daily by rail between that centre and Sydney, but the nearest post office is Hurstville. I hope that the Postmaster-General will favorably consider this reasonable request. The people of Kogarah have asked that the present manual telephone exchange be converted to the automatic system. This exchange serves a very important business area, and a more efficient service is urgently, needed. There is in the regulations relating to the transfer of telephones an unbusinesslike condition which is harassing to the Subscriber and must be detrimental to the business of the department. The incoming tenant is compelled to accept responsibility for the telephone liability of the outgoing tenant. I have had personal experience of this, and I have represented to the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs its unfairness, but without success. This condition creates grave dissatisfaction amongst tenants, and I have known some to allow the telephone to be cut off rather than be mulct in the amounts owing by the outgoing tenant. Many small business establishments are used extensively by the public for telephone purposes, and the department has no more right to ask an incoming tenant to perform the outgoing tenant's contract than other authorities would have to apply the same procedure to debts for gas and electric light. I protest against the attacks which have been made during this debate upon the Minister for Commerce. Fortunately, the unjust insinuations that have been made against him will not injure him in the minds of those who know him best. It is most unfair to attack in his absence an honorable man who has proved himself, in both social and commercial spheres, to be head and shoulders above those who now slander him. I have known him for over twenty years, and can testify that his public career in New South "Wales merits only the highest encomiums. The criticism by the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Beasley)** of the appointments to the Broadcasting Commission, would suggest that that gentleman, and those with whom he is associated, are the Simon Pures of public life; but many of the transactions with which the Lang administration in New South Wales was associated will not readily be forgotten. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the honorable member to deal with the amendment before the Chair. {: .speaker-KZF} ##### Mr LANE: -- I am confident that the Postmaster-General will give earnest consideration to the needs I have mentioned. {: #subdebate-13-0-s97 .speaker-KYX} ##### Mr RILEY:
Cook .- I have not complimented the PostmasterGeneral on his good looks, or congratulated him upon his ministerial promotion, or extolled his capable management of the business of the House during the present week; but I remind him that for the last ten years I have been endeavouring to have established an unofficial post office at Beaconsfield, in my electorate. I trust that this matter will receive early and favorable consideration. {: #subdebate-13-0-s98 .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB:
Angas .- At this late hour I do not propose to enumerate in detail the many facilities needed in my electorate, for which I have asked on several occasions, but I trust the Postmaster-General to do his job thoroughly and conscientiously. One honorable member referred to the improvement of postal facilities in country areas when the honorable member for Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** was PostmasterGeneral. It is true that the Government of which he was a member expended a large amount of public money on postal works, but it is only fair to say that excellent service was rendered to rural districts by **Mr. Poynton** when he was Postmaster-General. {: #subdebate-13-0-s99 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Postmaster-General · Warringah · UAP -- I thank honorable members for the kind things which they have said about me. I shall, of course, do my utmost to carry out faithfully the duties of my office, irrespective of whether the interests affected are country or city interests. The post office is a public utility, and my desire is to improve postal and telephonic facilities so as to give the best possible service to the community. I do not propose to reply in detail to all the requests that have been made by honorable members during the last few hours. It would be impossible for me to do that, even if I were aware of all the facts. The matters to which I do not specifically refer in my reply will be noted, and inquiries made with a view to seeing if something cannot be done. When honorable members take the trouble to remain in this chamber during a whole night in order to refer to specific matters, the least that can be done by me is to endeavour to give them the relief for which they are asking. Some major questions have been raised. The honorable member for Calare **(Mr. Thorby)** referred to the relations of the Commonwealth Government with Amalgamated. Wireless Australasia Limited. In that matter some dissatisfaction has been existing for a considerable timeduring the whole period of the last administration, probably before that, and certainly during the time that the present Government has been in office. Yet it is not so easy to meet the difficulties as might be inferred from the remarks of the honorable member. While it is quite true that twelve months' notice can be given of the discontinuance of payments in regard to patents, it has to be remembered that there is about £300,000 of the people's money invested in this company, and, naturally, everything that is done by the Government, affecting this company affects also the public money that has been invested in it as well as that of the other shareholders. Consequently, care has to be taken in dealing with this difficult and complex matter. It is true, of course, that the amount mentioned by the honorable member for Calare is paid because of certain patents which the company claims to possess. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- And the validity of which most of us doubt. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- There is evidence that leads to the belief expressed by the honorable member for Gippsland **(Mr. Paterson)** that the position of this company with respect to patents is not so sound as is claimed by it. Honorable members can accept the assurance that this matter is being thoroughly investigated. The Government is at present ascertaining the best courseto pursue, in fairness to the company in question, to the people of the Commonwealth whose money is invested in it, and to the community generally in respect of the public utilities which are bound up with this matter. The honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Beasley)** spent some time in dealing with civil aviation. As I have already intimated to him, civil aviation is under the control of the Defence Department. Recently a departmental conference, which was attended by a representative of the Commonwealth railways - I think the Commonwealth Railway Commissioner himself - and representatives of the Defence Department, the Treasury and the Post Office, sat for three weeks, and evidence was obtained from quite a number of avenues with a view to getting the latest information on this important subject. That committee's report is now in the possession of the Minister for Defence, who will give consideration to it when he returns to Canberra within the next day or two. The remarks of the honorable member for West Sydney regarding the Minister for Commerce, were entirely without justification. No member of the Government has been more scrupulous in ridding himself of commercial enterprises that would be likely to embarrass him in the conscientious discharge of his public duty. His commercial interests in no way conflict with his ministerial office, and he has made a considerable financial sacrifice in order to serve his country. I ask the honorable member for West Sydney, who was probably not aware of this fact, to believe that what I have said is true. I do not think that the honorable member's criticism of the Broadcasting Commission was justified. He looks at this matter from a stand-point entirely different from ours. He wrongly assumes that appointments have been made for political purposes. The honorable member probably thinks that Cabinet, in making these appointments, deliberately considered how it could advance the interests of the party which it represents. I assure him that the question of political policy did not arise when the qualifications of the applicants for the positions were being considered by Cabinet. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Was it a mere coincidence that all the successful applicants happened to be connected with the political party to which the Minister belongs? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- It is a mere coincidence. Had an outstanding applicant been a member of the Labour movement, that fact would not have prejudiced him in the eyes of the Government, or prevented his appointment. As a matter of fact Cabinet, as has been explained by my predecessor, examined the applications, and selected the. most suitable of them, irrespective of their political views. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr Beasley: -- Why was Stuart Doyle overlooked ? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- I am expressing my own' opinion only when I say that it was in the interests of thi3 country to scrap the old system of broadcasting control. We are starting a new era of broadcasting, as the result of the formation of a national commission, composed of persons with new ideas and conceptions. I think that the honorable member will agree that among the applicants for these important positions there would not be a preponderance of Labour supporters, because those associated with the direction of big enterprises are usually members of the nonLabour party. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr Beasley: -- That remark would not apply to persons with musical and other talents. **Mr. ARCHDALE** PARKHILL.Musical interests are represented to some extent on the commission. I ask honorable members to believe that the political views of the persons selected were not for one moment considered. As a matter of fact, I do not know the political views of some of them. The honorable member for Darwin **(Mr. Bell)** mentioned some important matters, one of these being the service between Tasmania and the mainland. I understand that the Public Accounts Committee, as the result of an investigation, reported in favour of the installation of a submarine cable to provide a telephone service between Tasmania and the mainland. The Postal Department is anxious that that work should be proceeded with, but as the cost would be about £200,000, the work has had to stand over. The daily mail service on the west coast of Tasmania was re-established on the 18th instant, and approval was given for the mail subsidy to be restored to the rate in operation before the reduction in the train frequency was made some time ago. No recent representations have been made in this connexion other than those by the honorable member for Darwin. The department took the view that the present arrangement was reasonable, if not liberal, in view of its commitments. The matter will receive attention, as will also the question of the sorting of letters in order to facilitate their delivery. It should not be difficult to make the necessary adjustments. Reference has been made to the outrageous treatment by bandits of a young man employed in the William-street Post Office, Sydney. All honorable members regret the occurrence, and the department has taken every precaution to prevent further similar happenings. The attitude of the department is set out in the following report: - >Following the hold-up in December, 1931, a complete review was made of the procedure adopted in transferring money from banks to post offices throughout the Commonwealth, with a view to taking the utmost precautions foi the protection of the officers concerned and the safeguarding of the department's money. Every endeavour was made to benefit from the experience of officers throughout the Commonwealth. In the original hold-up of the William-street Postmaster, an armed escort was provided, and the most direct route from the post office to the hall where the pensions were paid was traversed. The robbery in that case took place in a lane where there is nut normally much traffic, and the sum which was stolen amounted to about £900. It was arranged that in future the Postmaster and armed escort should traverse the main street and convoy the money in smaller amounts, lt is well known that criminals planning a hold-up first study and make themselves familiar with the character and the practices of their victims before making the attack, and no matter what safeguards are adopted the criminals would devise means to render them ineffectual. The department at one time made a. practice in certain cases of engaging police escorts but this procedure could not guarantee immunity from robbery even with violence. It will be recollected that only a short time ago an armed policeman acting as escort in Melbourne was shot. The *Bulletin* suggests that the provision of a motor vehicle would have been sufficient to provide protection to the officers, but experience shows that even this procedure is not an effective safeguard. The post office itself has experience of an attack being made some years ago when PaYing officers were leaving a departmental vehicle to enter the Spencer-street Post Office, in Melbourne. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Would there not have been less likelihood of an attack if there had been both a police escort and a motor car ? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- An attack would have been even less likely had an army of soldiers escorted the officers. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Was a car provided for a time after the 1931 hold-up? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- Yes. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Why was it discontinued? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- The William-street Post Office is not the only place from which money is transferred. The same procedure is followed at Redfern, and many other places, and it would be impossible to provide an armed escort in every case. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- Is that because of the expense involved? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- I am content to leave the matter to the judgment of honorable members, very few of whom are disposed to blame the department for the unfortunate occurrence. Honorable members generally are decent minded enough to believe that the department would do its utmost to prevent an outrage of this kind, and would not allow either time or money to stand in the way of safeguarding the lives or health of its employees. If any one can suggest a more effective way to protect them the department will be glad to hear of it. {: .speaker-KCH} ##### Mr Dennis: -- A Melbourne policeman who was acting as escort was shot before he could reach the car provided for him. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- The honorable member's interjection could be used as an argument in favour of disbanding the police force. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- It is not reasonable to assume that the honorable member for East Sydney **(Mr. Ward)** is the only man who knows how to protect officers adequately. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- The Minister is trying to show that this man was not the victim of departmental economies. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- The honorable member for East Sydney is probably the only person in Australia who thinks as he does about this case. I envy a Minister privileged to administer a public department which has money to spend. My experience as a Minister has been in connexion with departments with no money to spend; and it would appear that the post office is in the same position. The only money available is that which is obtained by making economies ; but there are evidences that a fairly considerable sum has been saved by prudent effort. I realize the strength of the claims made on behalf of country districts for better postal and telegraphic facilities. People living in the isolated parts of this country are entitled to all the conveniences that can reasonably be given to them. I am prepared to do what I can in that direction, and will consider what has been said regarding party lines, reduction of charges, improvement of the mail services, and the utilization of one set of poles for different lines. Telephone rates in Australia are much lower than in most other countries, including Great Britain and the United States of America. I have here a table which compares the rental and call charges for typical Australian cities and towns with those of other countries. Compared with Great Britain, the United States of America, New Zealand and Canada, our charges are low, and generally, the service is as effective as that given in any other place which I have visited. In common with other aspects of administration, the provision of continuous service exchanges is being care- fully scrutinized by the department. During the five years ended 30th June, 1931, the number of such exchanges advanced from 741 to 1,033, an advance of 40 per cent. The number of exchanges which provide attendance in the evening grew from 511 to 791, an increase of 55 per cent. At present more than 90 per cent, of the telephones outside the limits of the metropolitan networks are connected with exchanges which are open either continuously, or in the evenings. I do not agree with the views expressed by the honorable member for Riverina **(Mr. Nock)** regarding salaries. When we remember the immense capital invested in the business of the post office, and its ramifications, we must conclude that the salaries paid are not extravagant. If we compare them with the salaries paid in commercial undertakings we shall find that they are not in excess of, and possibly are considerably below, the average for positions outside the service carrying similar responsibilities. {: .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- Is that true of the officer who receives ?4,000 a year? **Mr. ARCHDALE** PARKHILL.The Director General of Postal Services receives only ?3,000 a year. **Mr.- Brown** was brought to Australia by the BrucePage Government to do work which no one then residing in Australia was capable of performing. {: .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- Who said that? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- The Government of the day said so, on the advice it received. Circumstances at the time of **Mr. Brown's** appointment were such that there was no officer available to do the work required; otherwise the then Government would willingly have utilized *A* local expert. **Mr. Brown** was appointed for a limited time, but when the period expired the . work for which he was appointed had not been completed. The Government, of the day, therefore, entered into an arrangement with him to continue in the department, and to do important work. Since then lie has been offered other employment at a higher salary than he is receiving. By the exercise of his gifts, the Director of Postal Services has saved his salary many times over. I do not know **Mr. Brown** well; but the experience of my predecessors, and of others who have come in contact with him, is that Australia is getting real value for the money paid to him to control this great enterprise. An undertaking of such magnitude as the post office requires as its chief officer a man possessing organizing ability, personal efficiency and many other qualities. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- And great technical knowledge. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- That is so. Those qualities are possessed by **Mr. Brown.** He has a wonderful knowledge of every branch of work undertaken by the post office. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr Ward: -- What salary was he receiving prior to his appointment? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- He was connected with the British Post Office. I do not know what **Mr. Brown's** salary was before he came to Australia; but when I was in London, **Sir William** Noble, .who is connected with one of the large electrical firms, told me that he had been in the service of the British Post Office for a number of years, and had been offered the position now occupied by **Mr. Brown.** He could not accept the appointment, but he recommended **Mr. Brown** for it, and he informed me that he had a very high opinion of the ability of that gentleman. I suggest that the committee should not regard the amendment submitted by the honorable member for East Sydney **(Mr. Ward)** as a serious one. I am thoroughly satisfied that the country is receiving full value for the salary paid to **Mr. Brown.** {: .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- Was he not receiving less than ?1,000 per annum overseas? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- The honorable member ought not to suggest that, unless he knows it to be a fact. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr Beasley: -- He was getting ?800 a year in Great Britain. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- He had to give up substantial pension rights when he accepted his present position, and that fact should be taken into consideration. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr James: -- Was there no other officer in Australia capable of filling his present position ? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- I think not. Successive governments have held the view that I have expressed concerning the value of the DirectorGeneral's services. I assure the committee that the other matters which honorable members have raised ' will receive the closest attention, and every effort will be made to provide the increased facilities desired. {: #subdebate-13-0-s100 .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney -- I have listened attentively to the reasons advanced by the PostmasterGeneral in opposition to the amendment. It is remarkable how our opponents change their ground on the subject of salaries and wages. I am certain that the high salary paid to the Director-General of Postal Services cannot be justified in view of the cuts made in the wages of the lower paid employees. The general public do not realize how much this officer draws from the Commonwealth funds. It has been stated that on account of the immense capital expenditure of the post office, the DirectorGeneral's salary is not too large; but I point out that the operations ' of the Sydney City Council, for instance, are as extensive as those of the Postal Department. The ramifications of its Electricity Department alone cost much more than the whole of the government services of the State of Tasmania, yet the Town Clerk of Sydney, **Mr. Roy** Hendy, receives about £1,500 per annum. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- What does **Mr. Forbes** Mackay receive as chief officer of the Electricity Department ? {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- He probably receives less than **Mr. Hendy.** {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- No; he is paid £2,500 a year. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr BEASLEY: -- I contend that the ramifications of the Electricity Department of the Sydney City Council are at least as extensive as those of the Postal Department. When the lower-paid workers in an industry ask for decent wages, the question is always asked, " Can the industry afford to pay the rates demanded?" The 10 per cent, reduction of wages effected in February, 1931, was attributed to the fall in the national income, and it was said that industries could not afford to pay the rates of wages previously in operation. A similar argument was advanced when objection was taken to this Government's action in disallowing a determination of the Public Service Arbitrator; but when we discuss the salaries of the " tall poppies ", Minis ters cry, " Think of the value of their services to the country"! If that is to be the main consideration, let it operate all round. Let the workers generally be paid in accordance with the value of their services and, in the case of the postal workers, let the Government at least accept the wage determined by the legally constituted tribunals, after full inquiries have been made into the conditions of their employment. Honorable members who were in the last Parliament will recall that the exmember for Martin **(Mr. Eldridge)** used to cause much annoyance to the exPostmasterGeneral **(Mr. Green)** by his remarks concerning the Director-General of Postal Services. On one occasion he informed the House of the whole history of **Mr. Brown,** prior to his coming to Australia. It appears that **Mr. Brown** was hardly known in the Public Service in London until he was chosen to go to India in connexion with certain reorganization work. On his return to London his salary was £800 per annum. The honorable member for Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** was Postmaster-General when **Mr. Brown** was appointed, and T dispute the statement that there was then no-one in this country competent to carry out the duties of this office. **Mr. Westhoven,** now Public Service Arbitrator, was quite capable of doing the work undertaken by **Mr. Brown.** I think that those who have had experience of **Mr. Westhoven's** capabilities will support me in the statement that his qualifications at the time were at least equal to those of **Mr. Brown.** It is noteworthy that at the time of this appointment, in order to distract attention from the largeness of the salary paid to **Mr. Brown,** he was paid separate amounts for various services. For instance, he was paid a certain sum as a member of the advisory committee on wireless telegraphy, despite the fact that the committee hardly ever met, or dealt with the matters that it was supposed to investigate. This gentleman appears to have lived under a particularly lucky star since his arrival in Australia. I suggest to honorable members that if they regard the matter in a reasonable way, they must conclude that the salary paid to this officer is too high, in view of the reduc- tions of wages and salaries that have been effected recently throughout the Public Service and the community generally. It can be shown that the expenditure of the Postal Department, in the provision of new services, has been reduced by, possibly, more than 50 per cent. recently, and that means that less supervision is required. Therefore, the Government can no longer justify the payment of the huge salary that **Mr. Brown** receives. In my opinion, most of the credit for the conduct of the department belongs to the lower ranks of its highly skilled technical men, such as its engineers, who could probably earn in private employment much more than they are receiving in the service of the department. It seems strange to me that there should be such an enormous difference between the salaries they receive and that paid to the administrative head of the department. Some of the technical men have even visited the United States of America at their own expense to bring themselves up to date with the latest engineering developments. Yet, as too often occurs, a man is imported from overseas, and, on the strength of an imposing list of credentials, which, after all, may not mean a great deal, is permitted to draw an enormous salary over a period of years, while Australians are kept in subordinate positions. It is because we object to this principle that, although we may be defeated, we propose to carry our protest to' the extent of dividing the committee. Motion (by **Mr. Hutchin)** agreed to - >That the question be now put. Question - That the amount proposed to be reduced be so reduced (Mr. Ward's amendment) - put. The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Bell.) AYES: 12 NOES: 25 Majority . . . . 13 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. {: #subdebate-13-0-s101 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Blunter .- I take this opportunity to again urge the Minister to give consideration to the proposal that wireless listeners' fees should be payable in quarterly instalments. Those who are employed only intermittently have but little money to spare, and it would help them if this concession were granted. I was not satisfied with the Minister's reasons for the discontinuance of the use of motor cars to transport officers in charge of funds for the payment of pensions. The absence of this protection was undoubtedly responsible for the attack recently made on two postal officials in East Sydney. The temptation to commit robberies of this kind is greater in these times of hardship than ever before, and adequate protection should be afforded by the department. In country districts, particularly, no proper facilities are provided for the safe transport of money. Officers carrying large sums have to travel by train, and, in some cases, even by horse and sulky. When it is realized that funds are so poorly protected, an attack will probably be made on pay officers in some country district, and then, no doubt, precautions will be taken. For the protection of the public money, and in the interests of humanity, the department should provide better facilities for officers conveying funds from place to place. {: #subdebate-13-0-s102 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley -- I do not propose to ask for a new post office, but I urge the Minister to take steps to have existing post offices renovated where necessary. Representations have been made by the Balmain Municipal Council that, with a view to absorbing some of the unemployed in that district, repairs and renovations should be carried out to postoffices. As a matter of fact, some of the post offices are an eyesore in comparison with other public buildings in the vicinity. {: #subdebate-13-0-s103 .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr WARD:
East Sydney -- I should like the Minister to elaborate his explanation regarding the attack on a postal official attached to the William-street post office in Sydney. It might be inferred from his statement that the police force in New South Wales was not competent to protect persons conducting their business in the city. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- I did not say that. {: .speaker-KX7} ##### Mr WARD: -- The honorable gentleman said that even if armed police escorts were provided, hold-ups would not be prevented. I ask that every possible precaution shall be taken to protect the officers who are doing this work. Unfortunately, the injury done to this man cannot be remedied, for he has lost his eyesight. This injury was caused in consequence of the economy plans of the present Government and, therefore, everything possible should be done to provide for the future welfare of this man and his relatives. {: #subdebate-13-0-s104 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Warringah · UAP -- Consideration will be given to the suggestion of the honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. James)** that wireless listeners' fees may be paid quarterly and also to the request of the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Rosevear)** concerning the renovation of post offices. The hold-up inWilliam-street, to which reference has been made, was not due to the economy measures of the Government. What was thought to be the most effective means were taken to protect the officers engaged on that occasion. Two men were carrying on the work of the department, but the man at whom the ammonia was thrown was the escort who held a revolver in his pocket, not the officer carrying the money. The two officers were passing along the street when they met two men with a bucket and brush, apparently equipped for window cleaning. The escort actually had his hand on his revolver, but one of the two assailants caught his arm in such a way that he could not draw his weapon, while the other man jostled the officer with the money and took it from him. The outrage would have been committed even had an armed policeman been acting as the escort. If any better means can be devised to protect officers engaged in this work, the Government will be glad to adopt them. {: .speaker-JOM} ##### Mr Beasley: -- What is being done now in that locality? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -I cannot answer that question at the moment, but I assure the honorable member that everything possible is being done. It was not expected that a second outrage of this kind would be committed in that locality, but that did. not in any sense cause the vigilance of the department to relax. I hardly think it necessary for me to assure honorable members that every consideration will be shown to the young man, Johnston, although no decision has yet been reached as to what will be done for him. Proposed vote agreed to. Territories of the Commonwealth. *Proposed vote,* £440,800. {: #subdebate-13-0-s105 .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr STACEY:
Adelaide .- The proposed vote for the Territories of the Commonwealth, according to the details given on page 316 of the Estimates, is £440,800. The *Hansard report* of the speech I delivered on the budget a fortnight ago contained one statement which was inaccurate, and which I failed to correct in the proofs. I was recorded as saying that a loss of £52,000 had been sustained in 1930-31 in respect of Hotel Canberra and Hotel Kurrajong. The statement will appear accurately in the bound volumes of *Hansard* and also in the copies sent to various institutions. I accept the blame for the error. Because of the jealousy of certain States towards certain other. States, Canberra has been brought into existence at a cost to the taxpayer of about £12,000,000. Visitors to this city must wonder how that amount of money could have been spent here; but it must be remembered that essential services such as sewerage, water conservation and reticulation, lighting and certain other conveniences have been provided for a population of about 25,000 people. Unfortunately, Canberra has not became quite what we expected it to be, and many people have been disappointed in it. It was intended that the Government should transfer the central staffs of all the departments to Canberra, but this has not been done, and the people who have established themselves in business here have suffered on that account. I wish to make some references to the huge losses that have been incurred in the Federal Capital Territory during the last few years. The capital cost of the five hotels is as follows : - In the first speech . I made in this Chamber, I referred to the serious losses that had been incurred in connexion with these hotels. I shall take up my subject at the point where I left it on that occasion. I make the following extract from the report of the Auditor-General for 1930-31:- >It will be seen that the year's expenditure for administration costs, including interest and sinking fund payments, amounted to £650,827, while the ordinary revenue derived from runts, rates, fees, services, &c, amounted to £180.168, or a deficiency of £470,659. Adding the loss on hotels, &c. £52,740, and transport, £9,013, the total charge to the taxpayer is £532,412, compared with a loss of £347,354 last year - an increase of £185,058. > >Although the cost to the taxpayer is put down at £532.412. that figure includes interest for only £352,777. Up to date, the expenditure on the Seat of Government outof loan and revenue is about £10,000,000, the interest on which, assuming an average rate of 5 per cent., would be £500,000 per annum - roughly £150.000 more than the sum included in the Accounts. On that assumption, the real cost to the taxpayer wouldbe about £680,000 for the year. The small amount included for interest is the result of the Treasurer's decision,under the Seat of Government (Administration) Act, to charge the Federal Capital Commission the low rate of 2½ per cent, per annum on expenditure or advances made by the Commonwealth before the Commission assumed control. That rate of interest was approved on account of the legal inability to relieve the Commission of interest on expenditure made out of revenue as distinct from loan moneys. Subsequent expenditure was charged at the rate borne by the Commonwealth. > >In my last report, I showed that the loss on hotels, &c, for ten months ended the 30th April, 1930, amounted to £90,479. For the full twelve months, the loss was £102,955 (including the writing down of assets £35,922) and for the year 1930-31, theloss, was £52,740, the improved position being due to lesser charges for maintenance, depreciation and interest. I have been disturbed for some time about this matter. The losses on the hotels in Canberra in the last three years have been as follow : - Taking into account the loss of £21,000 on the unoccupied hotels, Ainslie, Acton and "Wellington, the aggregate loss on the Hotels Canberra and Kurrajong is £136,907 for the last three years. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- It is unfortunate for the honorable member that the AuditorGeneral's figures are not correct. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr STACEY: -- As a precautionary measure I consulted **Mr. Brown,** the Secretary to the Department of the Interior, who supplied me with the following figures : - which are precisely the same as those given by the Auditor-General. What I do not understand is that the actual cash loss is shown as follows : - Those figures are confusing to me, in view of those previously quoted. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- Interest on capital cost and depreciation are included in the larger figures. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr STACEY: -- That is so. In any case the aggregate loss is tremendous. There are many ways in which at least a portion of that loss could be saved. I am given to understand that it costs £1,200 a year for the upkeep of the Hotel Canberra gardens. The taxpayers of the Commonwealth would be saved u great deal of money if tenders were called for the leasing of the Hotels Canberra and Kurrajong to private enterprise, even at a nominal rental. I am confident that a " live " man could make them pay. {: .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- In view of the large capital outlay on those hotels, how could they be made to pay at a low rental. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr STACEY: -- If they were let at even ls. a week that would result in a saving to the Commonwealth of many thousands of pounds a year. Already Canberra is well patronized, by tourists, and the trade will grow as the years pass. An enterprising private lessee would cater properly for tourists, and supply guides and conveyances to conduct them about the place. Although the Hotel Canberra, the Hotel Kurrajong and the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms are all conducted by the Government, it is singular that the tariff for each should be different. A far better meal can be purchased at the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms for 2s. than is obtainable at the Hotel Canberra for from 4s. to 4s. 6d. or at the Kurrajong for 3s. That is wrong. I have here two menus, one from Hotel Canberra, the other from the Hotel Kurrajong. Here are a few extracts - >Hotel Canberra. - Soup, 6d. ; fish, 2s. 6d.; joint, 2s. Od. > >Hotel Kurrajong. - Soup, 3d.; fish, ls. 6d.; joint, ls. 9d. That is an anomalous position which should be rectified. At present the Hotel Canberra has a staff of 51. I am confident that it has not an average of 51 guests. Things would be different if the hotels were conducted by private enterprise, as they would then be regarded as business enterprises. I hope that the Minister will see his way to adopt my suggestion. While the honorable gentleman was Minister for the Interior he exhibited exceptional capacity, quickly grasped all there was to be learned about that department, and resolutely set himself to effect every possible economy. I know that his successor will strive to do likewise, and I congratulate the Government on selecting the honorable gentleman for that office. My suggestion is- put forward to help the present Minister, honorable members generally, and the taxpayers of the Commonwealth in particu lar. It may be contended that if reductions were made in the expenditure on these hotels it would be necessary to dismiss some of the staff. I submit that the resultant saving would enable the Government to employ them elsewhere to better purpose. I also wish to direct attention to other excessive costs in the Federal Capital, for instance the amount spent on the maintenance of our parks and gardens. For the past three years that is shown as follows : - I am pleased that the figure has been reduced, but I am satisfied that it is still excessive and could be cut down by another £7,000 or £8,000 a year. I am confident that the Government will do everything possible to effect economies; but, while I do not wish to make threats, if I am not given an assurance that tenders will be called for the leasing of the Hotels Canberra and Kurrajong, I shall be compelled to move for a reduction of the item. If my suggestion is adopted, the taxpayers of Australia will be saved many thousands of pounds. I commend it to the good sense and justice of the Minister. {: #subdebate-13-0-s106 .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling .I move - >That the amount be reduced by *£1.* I wish this to be regarded as an intimation to the Government that the committee is dissatisfied with its handling of the unemployment position in Canberra. The practice of the committee obliges me to make the amount of the reduction £1, but 1 should like to fix the figure at £100,000. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- There is nothing to prevent the honorable member from moving the amendment in those terms. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- The temporary chairman would probably rule me out of order. The unfortunate unemployed position, in its general aspect, has not been alleviated by the present Government. Nothing has come out of the Premiers Conference ' that is now sitting in Melbourne, in the way of assistance to the unemployed. We have endeavoured to induce the Government to make a further sum available, so that the unemployed' might be given means to purchase extra clothing and foodstuffs for their families during Christmas week. No such step has been taken, and the budget contains no reference to any contemplated assistance to the 300,000 persons who are out of work. Each State is responsible for the unemployed within its own borders, but, with the exception of Queensland, all prefer to continue the dole. Like Lawson's " Middleton's rouseabout ", they have " no opinions and no ideas " concerning the solution of the problem. The unemployed within State boundaries are first, the responsibility of the State Government, and secondly, the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government ; but those in the Federal Capital Territory are the exclusive responsibility of the Commonwealth. While the Scullin Government was in office, the whole of the unemployed of Canberra were well looked after. During the last six months of its administration, the majority were on full time, and had it continued in office, they would have remained on full time until the end of last June. But when the present Nationalist Government came into power it commenced to practise economy and, as is usual with such governments, effected savings at the expense of workers on the lowest level. There are 500 workers in Canberra, the married and single men being about equal in number. The policy instituted by this Government immediately it took office was to prevent those men from earning little more than the amount of the dole. It proudly points to the fact that it has abolished the dole. It has done no such thing, because no more than mere sustenance is allowed to be earned. The amount of the dole is calculated, and neither a married nor a single man may earn more. The result, in the case of these men and their dependants, is a condition of impoverishment, and nothing beyond a mere existence. I give praise to the Canberra Belief Society, which is performing magnificent work. That is characteristic of relief organizations throughout Australia. But it should not be the responsibility of private citizens to provide extra food, clothing, boots and shoes for the unemployed and their dependants in Canberra; that is the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government. At the end of the present financial year probably £70,000 will have been saved at the expense of workers who are under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Commonwealth. This Government has no policy for the solution of unemployment generally in Australia, and I believe that it has even less regard for those who are its particular responsibility. Not only does it refuse to allow men to earn more than is needed to keep body and soul together, but it is following the course that its members have always advocated and supported, of union smashing, wage reduction, and the abolition of conditions that have been dearly won by the workers of this country. When the Scullin Government left office the basic wage in Canberra was the highest in Australia, to the regret of honorable members who now sit on the Government benches. {: .speaker-KIU} ##### Mr Hutchin: -- I challenge that. There is a basic wage of £5 a week at **Mr Isa,** in North Queensland. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- That was the basic wage in Canberra. I did not know that it was so high at Mount Isa, and I am grateful to the honorable member for having advised me of the fact. It was left to the present Government to make an onslaught on the wages of the workers in Canberra, in two ways : First, it practically abolished "all work beyond what would return an amount equal to the dole; and then it reduced the wages of those who were in constant employment. Immediately upon assuming office it took steps to review wages in this city. {: .speaker-JUD} ##### Mr Dein: -- Upon what work were the 500 workers in Canberra engaged? {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- Afforestation, road-making, tree-planting and other works. There is very little work of a constructional character being done in Canberra to-day. The works that I have mentioned are not unemployed relief works in the ordinary sense, but merely dole works. {: .speaker-JUD} ##### Mr Dein: -- Does the honorable mem-' ber contend that those 500 men can still be employed on similar work? {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- The Scullin Government found money for work of a more or less reproductive character, such as afforestation and the making of permanent roads.' Honorable members who drive round the city probably have noticed that roads that were meant to be only temporary are now showing signs of wear and tear. The withdrawal of upwards of £70,000 per annum is reflected in their condition. The making permanent of those roads, together with afforestation and general beautification works, would absorb a large number of men. Increased water storage is necessary. For this purpose the Government has propounded a scheme for the construction of an additional reservoir. I am informed that it is intended to call tenders for that work. Thus, instead of that being an unemployed relief work, it, is to be given to private enterprise, with all its attendant evils. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- With all the attendant conditions that will safeguard the interests of the people. They have been most scrupulously inquired into. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- The PostmasterGeneral knows perfectly well that whatever private enterprise touches must return profits, and that it will refuse to carry out anything that savours of unemployment relief: If he argues that private enterprise will do all that the Government is now doing, by taking different men in their turn, and employing them for a week or a. fortnight, why is it necessary to alter the present arrangements? Even if a contractor will abide by rationing conditions, and give employment on the roster system, it is only wasting money to entrust him with the work, because we already have the supervisory staff and the necessary gear, and no machinery would need to be purchased. But in its desire to abolish the day labour system, the Government apparently intends to hand over profits to private individuals who cannot or will not sympathetically afford relief; not that the present Government is doing so. Not only has it deliberately reduced expenditure and thus deprived 500 men and their dependants of the necessaries of life, but it has also begun to lower wages through the instrumentality of the industrial tribunal. Just as it contracted itself out of its obligations by disallowing determinations of the Public Service Arbitrator, so it is contracting itself out of its responsibilities to the workers of Canberra. The ordinance that operated during the regime of the Scullin Government contained a penal clause under which the penalty for a. breach of an award was £50, and £25 for every day that the breach continued. It was left to this Government to remove the penal clause from the ordinance. It was not satisfied with the reduction of the basic wage from £5 to £4 5s. a week by the industrial tribunal. Exhaustive inquiries were made by that body. The representatives of the Government placed its case before the members of the tribunal, and submitted to them cost of living figures. After review the industrial tribunal came to the conclusion that the basic wage for Canberra should be £4 5s. a week. Again, it was left to this Government to break down further the conditions of the workers by applying to them the £S reduction in the cost of living under the Financial Emergency Act. The workers in Canberra are not public servants within the accepted meaning of the term, in that they do not enjoy continuity of employment. Nor did they, from. 1926 to 1929, participate in the cost of living allowances which were, from time to time, given to the Public Service. But, as I have explained, after the basic wage had been reduced to £4 5s. a week by the industrial tribunal, this Government economized still further by applying to them the cut of £S a year in the cost of living. This last despicable act has earned for this Ministry the contempt of the people. Summarized, the Government, in pursuance of its policy to break down the standard of the workers, reduced by approximately £70,000 the amount available for unemployment relief over a period of eighteen months, reduced the basic wage from £5 a week to £4 5s., and finally it made a further cut of £8 a year based on the decline in the cost of living, figures. {: #subdebate-13-0-s107 .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
Barker -- I am very glad to know that the subsidy of £300 for the aerial mail service conducted in connexion with the Australian Inland Mission has been restored. It is regrettable that more is not known of the activities of the mission, which is doing so much for people who live in the out-back areas of Australia. The mission was established by the present director, the Reverend John Flynn, nearly 30 years ago. In many remote places nursing hostels have been established in charge of fully qualified nursing sisters who, with true heroism, are carrying on a noble work hundreds of miles from the nearest white woman, caring for and giving skilled attention to all iu need of it, whether they be white, black or yellow people. Through the public-spirited benefaction of **Mr. Sam** McKay, of Sunshine, Victoria, it has been possible for the mission to establish an aerial service by means of which a doctor is conveyed to its most distant Outpost in the shortest possible time. But the maintenance of the aeroplane is somewhat costly, and the Inland Mission has to depend for funds upon the generosity of the public. Fortunately, it has friends in all our capital cities, and in many of the larger country centres, and I am pleased to know that the Government will this year give it much needed financial assistance. I would, however, urge that the amount be increased, if possible, because I know that, the money will be spent in a most deserving cause. {: #subdebate-13-0-s108 .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS:
Monaro- Minister for the Interior · Eden · UAP -- While complimenting the honorable member for Adelaide **(Mr. Stacey)** upon his interest, in the development of Canberra and the Federal Capital area, I must take him to task for his misleading statements with reference to the expenditure that has been incurred up to date at the Seat of Government. In the first place the honorable member said that many visitors to Canberra went away disappointed with the city in view of f,he fact that over £12,000,000 has been spent on its development. Up to twelve months ago there might have been some reason for disappointment, but, since then there has been a noticeable change in the outlook upon the city. Honorable members will have noticed, lately, a more kindly tone in all press references to Canberra. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr Stacey: -- Much of the expenditure to date is underground. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- We must not forget that Canberra has been designed to serve a population of 50,000. In the light of our experiences during this depression, that number might seem unduly large, but. I am convinced that when all the departments have been transferred; the population will rapidly increase. If we compare the expenditure on Canberra with that which has been incurred by the various States on railway projects, the position is by no means so unsatisfactory as many persons would make it to appear, because the tosses on railway construction and other public works in the various States are infinitely greater than the lo3S on Canberra is ever likely to be. As a matter of fact, a considerable proportion of the expenditure on this city should be returning a profit in the course of a few years, when population increases, so there is no reason why any visitor should be disappointed with Canberra. Yesterday I met Captain Hans Bertram, the famous German aviator, who was on an official visit to the city. He assured me that Canberra occupied the most beautiful site of any city in the world. A prominent member of the legal profession in Sydney, whom I met about ten days ago, informed me that when he was on a world tour recently he heard a great deal of unfavorable criticism about Canberra, and, therefore, resolved to see the place for himself. He came here prejudiced against the place because of .what he had heard about it, but admitted that he had quite changed his mind; it was, in his opinion, more beautiful than any place he had seen on his tour. Three weeks ago there were no fewer than 1.80 guests at the Hotel Canberra. Every one of them went away with the happiest impressions of the city and its environment's. {: .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr Stacey: -- Did I say otherwise? {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- The honorable member said that people who came here on a visit went . away disappointed. I deny that. Losses in connexion with the running of our hotels are unavoidable because of their high capital cost and the conditions under which they are operated. But I have heard guests at the various hotels speak in the highest terms of the manner in which they are conducted. They say that they will come again. Some have come, intending to stay a day, and have remained a week or more. One guest who came here a few weeks ago has, i understand, settled down for a stay of three months. These are. not isolated instances. It will, of course, be impossible for our hotels to return a profit under existing conditions. Parliament is in session, usually, in the summer months when the tourist traffic is heavy, and goes into recess in the winter. Our hotels are then, for a few months, practically empty. The honorable member for Adelaide quoted figures dealing with the losses incurred in the running of the hotels. I could quote other figures to show that the position is not quite so bad as he would make it appear to be. If we include interest on capital costs and depreciation the losses would be as stated by the honorable member. Excluding those items, the loss on the various hotels in 1929-30, was £11,000, and in 1930-31, it was £2,900. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- There is no provision for cash losses this year. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- That is so, because we expect the actual receipts to pay working expenses. For the four weeks ended the 10th October, the profit of the Hotel Canberra was £150, and the loss on the Hotel Kurrajong was £63. These figures encourage the belief that a well-arranged publicity campaign would eventually make our hotels paying propositions. The losses at present being incurred in connexion with the hotels would still have to be borne by the Government if the hotels were leased. Even if the Government were to write down their capital value, the actual losses already incurred would still have to be borne by the taxpayers. My immediate predecessor in office gave careful consideration to the question of leasing the hotels, and, as honorable members are aware, the Hotel Ainslie is to be leased from the first of next month at a rental fixed on a sliding scale. It commences at a fairly low rate, but it will be increased when the population of Canberra becomes larger and when business, as a result of the transfer of additional departments, is stimulated. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- Will the rent received from the Hotel Ainslie be sufficient to cover depreciation and interest? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- The rental to be paid is £500 a year ; but the cost of a caretaker who receives £350 a year will be saved.. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- The leasing of the Hotel Ainslie will temporarily affect the revenue of the Hotels Canberra and Kurrajong; hut if the business at these hotels increases during the next twelve months as it has done in the past year, it may be necessary to open the Hotel Wellington. I can assure honorable members that the Government is not losing sight of the fact that in certain circumstances it may be profitable to lease these establishments. Tenders may be called to see what offers are received. To carry a motion directing the Government to lease them would only embarrass the Government, which might be forced to enter into a lease with possibly an unsuitable lessee. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- Is it not better to have these establishments under governmental control ? {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- The Government will use its judgment in the matter. {: .speaker-KYH} ##### Mr Price: -- Why not close down Canberra altogether? {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- Unfortunately, certain politicians and press representatives decry Canberra at every opportunity. Because of the large amount of public money invested here, and of the enormous cost which would be incurred in establishing the seat of government at some other centre, it is useless to suggest that Canberra should be closed down. Honorable members may be surprised to hear that I caused some consternation at a dinner which I attended in Adelaide a few weeks ago when I made numerous appreciative references to Canberra. A press representative said that he was surprised to find that there was any one who could speak in its favour, because the politicians he had met had not a good word to say for the place. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- I have always spoken favorably of Canberra. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- And so have I. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- The expenditure in Canberra is not likely to be materially reduced in the future, because of the cost that must be incurred in continuing the planting of parks and gardens, and maintaining the ornamental areas which are already established. On maintenance work of this kind considerable employment is provided. The honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley)** said that this Government was spending less money in the Federal Capital Territory than the Government of which he was a member. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- The figures disprove the Minister's statement. I refer him to page 349 of the Estimates. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- For the information of the honorable member for Darling I may say that the expenditure on different works has been as follows : - The total to be expended by the present Government is £198,000, as against £189,000 spent by the Scullin Government. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- The previous Government spent £90,500, whereas the present Government proposes to spend only £60,500. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- An application has been forwarded to the Treasury for an additional £18,000, which, if granted, will be used to enlarge the basis upon which rationed employment is arranged. That will be in addition to the expenditure already proposed. Some of the money made available for the relief of unemployment last year has not yet been spent. Moreover, the amount provided for the relief of unemployment throughout Australia is much larger than that made available by the previous Government. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The Minister will not be in order in discussing unemployment on this proposed vote. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- The latest official figures show that there has been a slight reduction in' unemployment throughout Australia. The general prospects in Canberra are likely to improve when additional departments have been transferred. Although the transfer of the Patents Department will entail the expenditure of some thousands of pounds, the increase in population will be of benefit to commercial interests in Canberra and the community generally. I am hopeful that it will not be long before other departments are transferred. Tenders have been practically accepted for the erection of some new buildings; that is more than the previous Government was able to do. The honorable member for Darling seems to be annoyed because this Government is doing more than was done by the Government of which he was a member. That is why we are in power and why the party of which he is a member is in opposition. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- The workers of Canberra are only getting the dole. {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr PERKINS: -- There is more contentment in the Federal Capital Territory than was the case when the honorable member for Darling was watching its interests. During the last few weeks I have met several deputations from Queanbeyan and Canberra workmen, and in obtaining information that was required, I had to peruse the files to ascertain what had been- done by my immediate predecessor, and the honorable member for Darling, who was Minister for Home Affairs when the Labour Government was in power. These men made the same representations to me as they" did to the honorable member for Darling, and they received similar answers. This Government is bringing more people here, and it also proposes to erect additional buildings. If the honorable member for Darling is honest, he must admit that we are doing more than was done by the previous Government. I appreciate the complimentary remarks of the honorable member for Barker **(Mr. Cameron)** with reference to the good work of the Inland Mission. It i.3 the policy of this Government to do all it can to help those in the more remote parts of the Commonwealth, and it is hoped that in future years the vote now provided will be increased. {: #subdebate-13-0-s109 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter .- I support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley).** On several occasions I have compared the policy of this Government in the matter of unemployment with that of the previous Ministry. The Scullin Government was more considerate towards the unfortunate men living in the No. 4 camp during the winter months than this Government has been. This Government is allowing unemployed men who receive a walk-in and walk-out ration to remain in the Territory for only a fortnight. The ration issued bythe present Government is lower than that issued by the Scullin Government. The amount provided last year for food relief was £6,558, but this , year it is only £2,000. 1 notice that £75 is provided as an entertainment allowance to the Government Resident in the Northern Territory. Surely that officer's salary is "sufficient to allow him to pay for any entertainment he gives, without an additional allowance. If the Commonwealth can afford to pay for the entertainment of people who should be well able to pay for' themselves, the Government is inhuman in refusing the necessaries of life to the unemployed. The sum of £700 is provided for the maintenance of the Canberra swimming pool. I would not object to this expenditure if the Government were acting fairly towards the unemployed. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- The swimming pool makes a profit. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- A sum of £463 is placed on the Estimates as a contribution towards the cost of wireless stations. Apparently the Government can find money for services that are not so necessary as the relief of the unemployed. The Government has shown distinct inhumanity to these unfortunates, apparently for the purpose of throwing a greater burden upon the Government of New South Wales. Men coming to the Federal Capital Territory in search of employment are not allowed to remain here, and are thrown upon the resources of the State. That is unfair. The Commonwealth Government should accept its share of responsibility for maintaining the unemployed. I have said frequently that' the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government is as great as that of the State Government, but I have heard that some unemployed persons in Canberra were prosecuted because they would not leave the Territory. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- That is so. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES: -- The PostmasterGeneral's admission that he prosecuted men who were willing and anxious to work, but could not get employment, is a reflection upon himself and the Government. The administration in the Federal Capital Territory has a responsibility at least to provide food and shelter for all unemployed who come here. {: #subdebate-13-0-s110 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Postmaster-General · Warringah · UAP -- I take strong exception to some of the remarks of the honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley).** The honorable gentleman is deserving of credit for what he did to develop Canberra while he was Minister in charge of the Territory, but he was grossly unfair when he said that the manner in which the present Government had managed the affairs of the Federal Capital had earned the contempt of the people. His further statement that the present Government had adopted a mean attitude to the unemployed does him no credit, and will not be believed by the public. The fact is that the present Government is expending on works in Canberra more money than was expended by the Scullin Ministry. In addition to the amounts mentioned by the Minister for the Interior, the Treasury is making available a. sum of £12,000 for the housing of the fourteen Treasury officials who' are being transferred from Melbourne. The transfer of the Central Patents Office to Canberra will provide further employment; the Scullin Government agreed to this step, but suddenly reversed its decision. The taking of the census, too, will create work in Canberra. These activities are much in excess of those of the Labour regime. Houses are to be built under contract, and the conditions will be such as to ensure that only Canberra men will be employed and that the money will be expended judiciously. In regard to the prosecution of travelling Unemployed, I found when I assumed office that 70 men who did not belong to Canberra, were being maintained at No. 4 Camp, involving the expenditure of money that should have been available for the relief of the legitimate local unemployed. I ordered those men out of the Territory. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr James: -- That was a disgrace. **Mr. ARCHDALE** PARKHILL.Those travelling unemployed were treated as they would have been treated under the Lang administration. They were entitled to a walk-in ration and a walk-out ration. The honorable member for Darling, however, would not apply discipline to them. When they arrived in the Territory duringhis period of office, they declared their intention to remain here, and the Commonwealth was obliged to supply them with rations for months, to the prejudice of the resident unemployed. {: .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr James: -- That was to the credit of the honorable member for Darling. Mr.ARCHDALE PARKHILL.- But the money he was expending on the maintenance of these men was withdrawn from the legitimate unemployed in Canberra. Some of these men in No. 4 Camp, when told to move on, were recalcitrant; consequently they were prosecuted; but although fines were imposed on them, they were told that if they would leave the Territory, the penalties would not be exacted of them. I do not know why the honorable member for Darling seeks to misrepresent the policy of the present Government towards Canberra. He has become a resident of the city and is taking an important part in community activities. I give him credit for his efforts to build up this National Capital, and he should be fair to others who are working equally conscientiously for the advancement of the city, and with more success, because of the greater backing we are receiving from this Government. {: #subdebate-13-0-s111 .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling Downs -- The best evidence of what has been, and is being done for the relief of the unemployed in Canberra, is furnished by an examination of Government expenditure on works in the city. The estimated expenditure this year is between £60,000 and £70,000 less than the actual expenditure last year. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- Nonsense! {: .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr Perkins: -- An official report shows that the expenditure this year will be £9,000 more than it was last year. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- For additions, new works and buildings in the Federal Capital Territory the Scullin Government voted £90,500. I, as Minister, exceeded that vote by about £30,000, making a total expenditure of at least £120,000. Immediately the present Government took office, it suspended works. The unfinished condition of the roads is an evidence of that. It saved in that respect £16,684. The Scullin Government voted £90,500 for new works and buildings, and the present Government is voting £60,500, or a reduction of £30,000; yet the Minister talks of constructing additional buildings and improvements in the Territory. The expenditure is £30,000 less, even allowing for the £12,000 which will be made available by the Treasury. {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill: -- What about the amount of £15,000 from the Unemployed Belief Fund? {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- I have included everything in my figures. Take the position of a married man. For the first six months of the last financial year, he worked full time. Immediately the present Government took office, his employment was reduced, until to-day, instead of having full time, he is practically on the dole. Instead of obtaining a dole ticket for rations, he has to work for them. The married man is being employed one day in every three, and if he cannot earn enough to provide for his wife and family, he is given a dole ticket to make up the difference. A single man, instead of working one day in three and one day in four, is working one day in six, one day in seven, and one day in eight. The truth of my statement as to what is being done in Canberra for the relief of the unemployed can best be borne out by the unemployed themselves. {: #subdebate-13-0-s112 .speaker-KUW} ##### Mr STACEY:
Adelaide .I congratulate the Minister on his fighting speech in reply to my remarks. He stated that my references to Canberra would turn people against it. My remarks were the reverse of what he stated them to be. I said that there were many beauty spots in Canberra, but no facilities for viewing them. When referring tothe huge amount of money that had been expended in Canberra, I said that the visitors could not see much evidence of it, because the results were mainly under the soil. There are many improvements that could be effected at the hotels. For instance, the tourist who stops one night is charged at the same rate as a person who makes a much longer stay. That would not be tolerated by private enterprise. The service at the hotel is not all that it should be. Many complaints have been made, and I believe that the Minister will do his best to remedy the defects in the service. He stated that the Kurrajong Hotel was showing a profit. My figures show that there is a loss of 7d. on every meal served there. Many things should be investigated if the hotels are still to be under the control of the Government. For instance, the charge for poultry at the table is 3s. 6d. I do not wonder at that, because the Government, or whoever buys the poultry on. its behalf, is paying from 2s. 6d. to 3s. a lb. for it. The charge should not be more than1s. 6d. per lb. The service can, and should be, improved. In view of the assurance that the Minister has given me, I do not intend to move the amendment which I foreshadowed. Question - That the amount proposed to be reduced be so reduced (Mr. Blakeley's amendment) - put. The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Bell.) AYES: 11 NOES: 27 Majority.... 16 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Proposed vote agreed to. Motion (by **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill) agreed to - That, including the several sums already voted for such services, there be granted to His Majesty to defray the charges for the year 1032-33, for the several services hereunder specified, a sum not exceeding £20,371,070. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted. In Committee of Ways and Means: Motion (by **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill) agreed to - >That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the services of the year 1932-33, there be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund a sum not exceeding £13,104,773. Resolution reported and adopted. {: .page-start } page 1751 {:#debate-14} ### APPROPRIATION BILL 1932-33 *Ordered -* >That **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill and **Mr. Perkins** do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill brought up by **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill, and passed through all its stages without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 1751 {:#debate-15} ### PAPERS The following papers were presented - >Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determination by the Arbitrator, &c. - No. 18 of 1932 - Commonwealth Public Service Artisans' Association. Removal of Prisoners (Territories) Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 98. {: .page-start } page 1751 {:#debate-16} ### SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT {: #debate-16-s0 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Postmaster-General · Warringah · UAP . I move - >That the House at its rising adjourn until Wednesday next at 3 o'clock p.m. In explanation of the motion, I desire to state that by reason of the many hours during which Parliament has sat this week and of requests made by members on both sides of the chamber, the Government has decided that the state of business will permit the House to adjourn until "Wednesday. "When the House meets next week we shall discuss the New Guinea Bill, the Defence Bill, the Northern TerritoryWire Netting Bill and two measures relating to the Public Accounts Committee and the Public "Works Committee. On Thursday the discussion on the Ottawa agreement will be commenced. {: #debate-16-s1 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter .- I oppose the motion. A week or two ago the Prime Minister said that Tuesday sittings were necessary because Christmas was approaching, and the Government desired that members who lived in the farflung areas of the Commonwealth- Motion (by **Mr. Hutchin)** - put - >That the question be now put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) AYES: 26 NOES: 11 Majority . . . . 15 *Members interjecting during the division,* AYES NOES {: #debate-16-s2 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I remind honorable members that they are not at liberty to be disorderly while a division is being taken. If the disorder continues, I shall be forced to take notice of it. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the House at its rising adjourn till Wednesday next at 3 o'clock p.m. - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) AYES: 31 NOES: 6 Majority . . . . 25 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. {: .page-start } page 1752 {:#debate-17} ### ADJOURNMENT {: #debate-17-s0 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Postmaster-General · Warringah · UAP -- I move - >That the House do now adjourn. *[Quorum formed.]* {: .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL: -- I offer my personal thanks to honorable members generally for the courtesy extended to me while I have been temporarily occupying the position of Leader of the House. Motion (by Mr.Ward) put - >That the question be now put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) AYES: 26 NOES: 5 Majority . . . . 21 *In division:* AYES NOES {: #debate-17-s1 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND -- The Standing Orders declare that an honorable member shall vote as he calls. The name of the honorable member for East Sydney will, therefore, be counted with the ayes. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the House do now adjourn - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) AYES: 27 NOES: 6 Majority . . ... 21 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 7.4!) a.m. (Friday). {: .page-start } page 1752 {:#debate-18} ### ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS *The following answers to questions were circulated: -* {:#subdebate-18-0} #### Pasteurization of Foods {: #subdebate-18-0-s0 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr Maloney: y asked the Minister for Health, *upon notice -* >With regard to the questions asked by the honorable member for Melbourne on the 11th March, 1929 *(Hansard,* Vol. 120, page 963) - > >Has the Department of Health any knowledge of a cheap utensil which could be used by the mothers of families in both . country and town that would pasteurize milk and other foods in order to preserve the health of citizens ? > >If not, will the Minister consider offering a prize to Australian inventors for the invention of 'some simple utensil that would pasteurize foods? {: #subdebate-18-0-s1 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr:
UAP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Milk may be efficiently pasteurized in the home by the use of ordinary domestic utensils, and several simple types of apparatus are now on sale for the pasteurization of milk and other foods. 1. It is not necessary to offer a prizeto Australian inventors for this purpose. Commissioner-General in United States of America. {: #subdebate-18-0-s2 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 en asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. ls the Government considering the appointment of another Commissioner-Genera] in the United States of America, to be located at *New* York? 1. If the Government is favorable to another appointment, will it consider the claims of **Mr. D.** M. Dow, who has been carrying out the work successfully for a number of years? 2. If the Government is not favorable to expending any further funds on representation in the United States of America, will it consider -he question of stabilizing the position as lai as the official secretary is concerned, by conferring upon him a title that will recognize him as chief of post, even though no additional salary is involved? **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill (for **Mr. Lyons).** - One of the objects of the recent visit to the United States of America of the Minister without Portfolio was an examination of the question of the arrangements to be observed in the future in connexion with the representation of Australia in that country. A decision on the question will not be reached until the Government has had an opportunity of considering the views of the Minister upon receipt, of his report on the subject. Invalid and Old-Age Pensions. My. Rosevear asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >ls it a fact that the New South Wales Government intends to make the receipt of invalid and old-age pensions part of the permissible income of families in receipt of the " Dole " with a view to excluding them from the "Dole"? > >Is it a fact that the Commonwealth Government is of the opinion that children should maintain their aged parents? > >If so, what action" does the Government propose to take to protect the pensions against the action of the New South Wales Government in its attempt to force pensioners to keep their children ? {: #subdebate-18-0-s3 .speaker-F4O} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill (for Mr Lyons:
Prime Minister · WILMOT, TASMANIA · UAP ns). - The information in regard to part 1 is being obtained, and a reply to the question will be furnished as soon as possible. {:#subdebate-18-1} #### Census {: #subdebate-18-1-s0 .speaker-KZX} ##### Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · FLP; ALP from 1936 n asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >With regard to the question asked by the honorable member for Brisbane on the 7th ultimo, regarding employment in connexion with the taking of the census in 1033, will the Prime Minister state whether he has had the matter investigated, and whether it is proposed to hold examinations for candidates in Brisbane as well as in other capital cities? **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill (for **Mr. Lyons).** - Pull consideration has not yet been given to the centres at which qualifying examinations will be held for candidates who desire appointment in connexion with the forthcoming census. A final decision will be arrived at when more urgent matters in connexion with the census have been dealt with. {:#subdebate-18-2} #### British Phosphate Commission {: #subdebate-18-2-s0 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 en asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On what grounds is it considered impracticable to engage Australians to work in quarrying phosphatic rock at Nauru? 1. Is it a fact that although the island is close to the equator, it has, because of it.* insular position, a most equable climate of comparatively low humidity that would enable Australians to do equally effective work as that done by the cane-cutters in Queensland? 2. Will the Minister suggest to the Phosphate Commission that Australian workmen be given a, trial in an industry that owes its existence solely to the Australian market? **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill (for **Mr. Lyons).** - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and 3. The majority of the white staff employed by the British" Phosphate Commissioners are Australians. Article 13 of the agreement between the three partner governments (see Nauru Island Agreement Act 19.10 ) provides as follows: - There shall bo no interference by any of the three governments with the direction, management, or control of the business of working, shipping, or soiling the phosphates, and each of the three governments binds itself not to do or to permit any act or thing contrary to or inconsistent with the terms and purposes of this agreement. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The climate is humid. Hydrometer leadings average about *80* per cent, dry, 7S per cent. wet. {:#subdebate-18-3} #### Superphosphates {: #subdebate-18-3-s0 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 en asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What was the price per ton of superphosphate f.o.r. at the works in (a) New South Wales; (6) Victoria; (o) South Australia; and (d) Western Australia, in the years 1022 and 1032 respectively on the equivalent of 22 per cent, phosphoric acid content? 1. What amount of phosphatic rock is used in manufacturing a ton of superphosphate on the basis of 22 per cent, phosphoric acid content? **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill (for **Mr. Lyons).** - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. 1922-23- New South Wales, £5 18s. 6d.; Victoria, £5 5s.; South Australia, £5 2s. 6d.; Western Australia, £5 15s. 1932 - All four States, £4 10s. cash; £4 15s. terms. 1. Approximately11½ cwt. {: #subdebate-18-3-s1 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What was the tonnage exported by the Pacific Phosphate Company from the island of Nauru for each of the years 1906 to 1919, when the right to work the deposits was taken over by the British Phosphate Commission ? 1. On what basis was the royalty paid to the Jaluit Gesellschaft (German company), and how much was paid for each of the years mentioned 7 {: #subdebate-18-3-s2 .speaker-F4O} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill (for Mr Lyons:
UAP ns). - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The export of phosphate from Nauru was not commenced until 1908 - {: type="1" start="2"} 0. It is understood the royalty paid was Is. per ton on the total exports from Nauru and Ocean Islands, which were 2,785,000 tons during the years 1908-19 inclusive. Losses on Canberra Hotels. {: #subdebate-18-3-s3 .speaker-KXY} ##### Mr Perkins:
UAP -- Information is being obtained and will be conveyed as soon as possible to the honorable member for Oxley **(Mr. Baker)** in regard to the losses incurred on Canberra hotels. German Dyes. Mr.Forde asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* >What is the present position in regard to entry of German dyes into (a) Australia; (ft) Great Britain; (c) South Africa; *(d)* New Zealand; and (e) Canada? > >For what period was the entry of German dyes to Australia prohibited? {: #subdebate-18-3-s4 .speaker-KFW} ##### Mr Guy:
UAP y. - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The importation of dyes tuffs other than of British origin into Australia is prohibited except with the consent of the Minister for Trade and Customs. The importation of foreign dyestuffs into Great Britain is also prohibited except under licence. It is understood that there is no prohibition on the importation of German dyestuffs in South Africa, New Zealand, or Canada. 1. The proclamation prohibiting the importation of dyestuffs was not enacted for any defined period. {:#subdebate-18-4} #### Commonwealth Military Forces {: #subdebate-18-4-s0 .speaker-JWT} ##### Mr Francis:
UAP s. - Yesterday the honorable member for Melbourne **(Dr. Maloney)** asked the following questions *upon notice : -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Are any officers or other ranks of the Commonwealth Military Forces sent to England to study at Staff Colleges of the British Army or Air Forces; if so, what are their names and what departments do they represent? 1. What has been the total cost to date of all such officers and other ranks who have been sent to England to study? I am now in a position to inform the honorable member as follows: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. It has been the practice to send two military officers each year to the Staff College in England, but for next year only one is being sent. No military officers have been sent to the Air Force Staff College. The names of the military officers attending the Staff College in 1932 are - **Major J.** A. Chapman, D.S.O.; Captain H. F. H. Durant; Captain A. P. O. White; and Captain C. E. M. Lloyd. All these officers are members of the Australian Staff Corps. Flight-Lieutenant T. A. Swinbourne, of the Royal Australian Air Force, is attending the Royal Air Force Staff College at Andover. 1. The totalcost of training of military officers at the Staff College for the year ended the 30th June, 1932, was £4,185. The cost of Flight-Lieutenant Swinbourne's attendance at the Royal Air Force Staff College was £1,056. The honorable member has not indicated what period he intended to be covered, and I have, therefore, supplied current figures only. If the honorable member required details to cover the period since federation, I regret that, in view of the time and cost entailed in research, the compilation of the figures sought cannot be undertaken. Invalid and Old-age Pensions. **Mr. Archdale** Parkhill (for **Mr. Lyons).** - Yesterday the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Nairn)** asked the following question, *without notice: -* >In regard to the Commonwealth lien on the property of invalid and old-age pensioners, I am informed that the Titles Office in Victoria insists that before a transfer can be effected the transferor must sign *a* declaration that lie is not drawing a pension. This procedure is holding up titles business, and over 100 transfers cannot be proceeded with. A request has been made that, pending the publication nf regulations, thu Pensions Office should be instructed to answer questions as to whether a transferor is a pensioner or not. Will the Acting Leader of the House ask the AttorneyGeneral to consider immediately the practicability of this suggestion? > >T have made further inquiries, and I now find that the amended regulations under the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act come into operation as from to-day. Any person dealing or proposing to deal in any real property may now obtain from the Deputy Commissioner of Pensions the following information : - >Whether the owner of the property is a pensioner under the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act. > >Whether the owner of the property has at any time since, the. 12th October, 1932, been a pensioner under the said act. > >The amount of pension paid which would be a charge on the pensioner's estate if section .ri2 (e) of the act were applicable thereto »t. thu date the information ia supplied.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 27 October 1932, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1932/19321027_reps_13_136/>.