House of Representatives
29 April 1932

13th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. H. Mackay) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 132

QUESTION

UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF

DistributionofSurplusMilitary Stores - Commonwealth . grant.

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Having regard to the widespread distress amongst the unem ployed in South Australia, and the urgent need for reliefbef ore the winter, I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Defence when surplus military stores and clothing will be made available in the various States?

Mr FRANCIS:
Minister in charge of War Service Homes · MORETON, QUEENSLAND · UAP

– As part-worn and spare military clothing becomes available it is sent to applicant organizations in the various States for distribution. I shall inquire regarding the circumstances in South Australia, and let the honorable member have an early reply.

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I understand that in country towns the Salvation Army will be the agent for the distribution of surplus clothing. Relief committees in the Hunter electorate’ have applied to the Salvation Army for clothing, and have been informed that none is available. Will the Government see that sufficient clothing is made available to these committees for the relief of the unemployed during the winter months?

Mr FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931; LP from 1944

– As soon as it becomes available part-worn and surplus military clothing is handed over to certain charitable organizations ‘which are prepared to bear the expense of distributing it. Owing to the attitude of the Government of New South Wales, which has refused to issuesuch clothing, the Commonwealth Government has arranged with the Salvation Army to distribute clothing in the country districts in that State. I regret that at the present time very little clothing is available for distribution.

Mr COLLINS:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I applied to the Department of Defence for clothing to be made available to the more important centres in the Hume electorate, and was advised that the Salvation Army was the approved distributing agency. When I applied to that organization for informationregarding the towns which had been supplied, I received a reply that clothing had been distributed in industrial centres only. I ask the Assistant Minister for Defence to inquire into this policy, and, if possible, instruct that clothing be sent to country centres also.

Mr FRANCIS:

– I shall be glad to inquire into the matter.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

– Will the Prime Minister inform the House when the Government’s proposals for the relief of unemployment will be submitted to the House ?

Mr LYONS:
Prime Minister · WILMOT, TASMANIA · UAP

– Probably early next week a bill to authorize the borrowing of moneys for the relief of unemployment will be introduced, andhonorable members will then have a full opportunity to discuss the matter.

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The Government has announced its intention to create councils for the administration of the unemployment relief grant. Can he inform the House how those councils will be constituted ?

Mr LYONS:

– In most of the States such councils already exist, and the Commonwealth will have the right to nominate two representatives to serve on each. In New South Wales the Commonwealth Government will not be able to co-operate in that way with the State Government. As only Commonwealth money is to be expended in that State, the council to be appointed there will represent the Commonwealth alone. Probably the council will consist of five members, whose duty will be to investigate proposals for the expenditure of the grant, but the personnel has not yet been decided.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Should the local governing bodies in New South Wales apply direct to the Commonwealth Governm ent?

Mr LYONS:

– We have yet to ascertain the extent of our power to make moneys available direct to local governing bodies. In the meantime these should apply to the Commonwealth Treasury. We shall ascertain whether it will be possible to follow the ordinary course of allocating the moneys to the local governing bodies through the State Government.

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– Should the local governing bodies submit their own schemes to the Commonwealth Treasury?

Mr LYONS:

– Yes.

page 133

QUESTION

DISARM AMEN T

Mr HUGHES:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The newspapers report that the Geneva Conference on disarmament is likely to prove abortive, and that the delegates have departed for their homes. Has the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs received any confirmation of that report ?

Mr BRUCE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– No.

page 133

QUESTION

CENSUS

Mr GABB:
ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I ask the Prime Minister whether the newspaper statement that the census will be taken in 1933 has any foundation in fact?

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– The taking of the census, particularly with a view to relieving unemployment amongst the clerical classes, is at the present time under the consideration of Cabinet. No decision has been reached.

page 133

QUESTION

PERFORMING RIGHT ASSOCIATION

Mr GUY:
BASS, TASMANIA

– In view of the desire expressed by members of all parties for a comprehensive, public inquiry into the operations of the Performing Right Association, will the Minister representing the Attorney-General bring this matter before Cabinet at an early date?

Mr BRUCE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– The matter is already under the consideration of the AttorneyGeneral’s Department and Cabinet, and the House will be informed if any action is proposed.

page 133

QUESTION

REPUDIATION OF INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC DEBTS

Mr JAMES:

– On the 27th April the Assistant Treasurer (Mr. Bruce) stated that Great Britain had never repudiated a debt to another nation. I draw his attention to the following statement published in The Worlds Work of March, 1926:-

Greatbritainindebttoitaly

One of the by-products of the discussion of European indebtedness to America has been the discovery of repudiated debts in certain American States. No onehas so far asserted that the Federal Government has ever ignored its obligations, but particular sins of the States, especially those of the south during the reconstruction era, have been brought to our attention, especially by writers in the British press. Why should America be so harsh to Europe when we have many claims outstanding against us?

But it appears that there is astain on the British shield as well as upon that of South Carolina and other American commonwealths. The adroit Italia n intellect has uncovered it.

It appears that Edward III. of England borrowed one million florins from Florence to finance his French wars, and that the debt has never been paid.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! On several occasions the Chair has drawn attention to the irregularity of prefacing questions by reading long extracts from newspapers.

Honorable members are not permitted to make comments or statements when asking questions; an irregular debate might be initiated by the reading of extracts of a propagandist nature. If honorable members must use newspaper statements as the basis of questions, such statements should be summarized as briefly as possible.

Mr JAMES:

– The statement has been made that Great Britain has never repudiated a debt, but the journal from which I have quoted has drawn attention to a debt that has never been paid. How, then, does the right honorable gentleman reconcile his statement that Great Britain has never repudiated a debt with the passage that I have quoted? It is stated that at2½ per cent. compound interest this unpaid debt has now accumulated to a sum which would liquidate Italy’s debt to England, and the whole of the debts of the European nations to America.

Mr Guy:

– I submit that it is not com- petent for an honorable member to ask a question based on a newspaper report; un- less he can vouch for its accuracy.

Mr SPEAKER:

– On that point many and varying rulings have beengiven. It is the parliamentary practice to require honorable members to vouch for the accuracy of the newspaper reports on which they base questions, but in the majority of cases, of course, it is impossible to give that assurance.

Mr BRUCE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT; UAP from 1931

– The passage which the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) has just read from an American’ magazine, merely confirms what I said the other night as to the honour and integrity of Great Britain. In endeavouring to show that Great Britain has acted in regard to her creditors as discreditably as certain of the American States, all the writer could do was to go back nearly 600 years to the days of Edward III., when, it is alleged, the King borrowed money from the Republic of Florence, a State which no longer exists. I remind the honorable member that there was then no “ Great Britain “ ; it was centuries later that the United Kingdom came into existence. It is regrettable that the honorable gentleman should try to support unfounded charges as to lack of integrity on the part of Great Britain, and give countenance to inaccurate and ludicrous statements.

page 134

QUESTION

IMPERIAL ECONOMIC CONFERENCE

Mr RIORDAN:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

– Does the Prime Minister intend to give the various shipping companies an opportunity of tendering on wholesale lines for the passage of the army of Ministers and Government officials which is about to leave Australia for Ottawa to attend the Imperial Economic Conference?

Question not answered.

page 134

QUESTION

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Staff Arrangements

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– Yesterday the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. R. Green) asked me whether I would lay on the table of the Library copies of recommendations or communications received from the Public Service Board in connexion with the recent rearrangement of the activities of certain Commonwealth departments, and the appointment of Mr. H. C. Brown as secretary to the new Department of the Interior. I now desire to inform the honorable member that copies of the documents in question have been placed in the Library, and copies have also been made available to the press.

page 134

QUESTION

WIRELESS BROADCASTING

Crystal Brook Station - Establishment of Additional Stations

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. With reference to the Crystal Brook Broadcasting Station, was the price of £17,865, quoted as the contract price, for the apparatus only; if not, what else did that figure include?
  2. What is the total sum paid (or to be paid) to Standard Telephones and Cablesin connexion with the supply, erection and testing of this station up to the date of handing over to the Government!
  3. What is the total sum paid (or to be paid) to Standard Telephones and Cablesin respect of any further work to be done to complete the contract subsequent to the handing over ?
  4. What was (or will be) the total amount paid to Commonwealth servants employed in connexion with the supply, erection and testing prior to and subsequent to the date of handing over?
  5. What was (or will be) the total cost to his department for material other than that purchased under the main contract in connexion with the supply, erection and testing prior to and subsequent to the date of handing over?
  6. What was the total amount incurred (or to be incurred) by the Public Works Department in respect of (a) the buildings used for the Crystal Brook Station, (b) the foundations, and (c) such other works as were carried out by that department?
  7. Who are the parties in the matter said to be sub judice in respect of a local franchise claim relating to the electricity supply for the Crystal Brook Station?
  8. What does the Postmaster-General mean, exactly, in saying that the contract for the power supply was let “ originally “ to the Adelaide Electric Supply Limited?
  9. Without going into the legal points of a matter said to be sub judice, will the PostmasterGeneral explain the nature of the question at issue?
Mr FENTON:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The contract price quoted covers apparatus and also the services of the contractors’ supervising engineer.
  2. The sum due at the date of opening was 95 per cent. of the contract price, i.e., £ 16,972. The balance is due in three months after the handing over of the station.
  3. Nil.
  4. The total sum incurred, including administration, prior to date of opening, is £1,991. After that date the only payments will be for salaries and wages to the department’s station staff.
  5. £652.

  6. (a) £3,053, (b) £399, (c) £457.
  1. The Commonwealth of Australia, Adelaide Electric Supply Company Limited, South Australian Railways Commissioner, AttorneyGeneral for South Australia, and the District Council of Crystal Brook.
  2. The word “originally” was unnecessary. Only one contract was placed.
  3. The question at issue concerns the right of the contractors to supply power in the area affected.
Mr GUY:

asked the PostmasterGeneral,upon notice -

  1. Will he give the names and localities of the sixteen to eighteen additional broadcasting stations in the various States which it was proposed to establish under the programme of construction prepared in 1929?
  2. Will he also name the stations already installed in accordance with the abovementioned programme?
Mr FENTON:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The stations are intended to be erected in areas at present inadequately provided for, but the localities are not finally determined, as it is preferable for the department to be guided to some extent by the experience resulting from each new station brought into service. The honorable member may be interested to know that the studies indicate the necessity for two stations of appreciable power to serve

Tasmania, and it is intended that Tasmania shall benefit immediately any funds can he made available for proceeding with the general programme.

  1. The stations so far installed are 4RK Rockhampton, 2NC Newcastle, 2CO Corowa and 5CK Crystal Brook.

page 135

QUESTION

OVERSEAS INTEREST

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– The honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) has asked a question, upon notice, regarding overseas interest payments. The information is being obtained and will be furnished assoon as possible.

page 135

QUESTION

UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF LOAN

Mr GABB:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Will the amount proposed to be raised as Commonwealth relief loan be expended only to provide work for unemployed in receipt of rations, or to provide work for unemployed irrespective of whether they are in receipt of rations or attempting to live on their savings?

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– It is proposed to establish councils in connexion with unemployed relief works in the States for the purpose of providing the maximum relief possible. The Commonwealth does not intend to impose conditions such as those suggested.

page 135

QUESTION

AIR-COMMODORE KINGSFORD SMITH

Mr FRANCIS:
UAP

– The honorable member for Richmond (Mr. R. Green) has asked a series of questions, upon notice, regarding the utilization of the services of Air-Commodore Kingsford Smith. Replies will be furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 135

QUESTION

FINANCIAL AGREEMENTS ENFORCEMENT ACT

Revenues Seized from New South Wales.

Mr LYONS:
UAP

– The honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) has asked a series of questions, upon notice, regarding revenues seized from the State of New South Wales under the Financial Agreements Enforcement Act. The information is being obtained, and will be furnished as soon as possible.

page 136

REGISTRATION OF MOTOR VEHICLES

effectofnewsouthwales Transport Act.

Mr. ARCHDALE PARKHILL.The honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) has asked a series of questions regarding the effect of the New South Wales Transport Act on motor vehicles registered in the Federal Capital Territory. The information is being obtained, and will be conveyed to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 136

QUESTION

HOB ART SAVINGS BANK

Mr GANDER:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that the National Debt Commission defaulted to the Hobart Savings Bank to the extent of £20,000 on the 1st instant?
  2. Did the Federal Government subsequently repudiate an agreement made with the bank under pressure in terms of which £10,000 of the amount owing was to have been paid in cash and the remaining £10,000 to have been funded for a period of three mouths?
  3. Did the Government promise to bring before the first meeting of the Loan Council, after the 1st instant, the question of making provision for the repayment of this amount?
  4. Was the matter brought before the last meeting of the Loan Council?
  5. Willhe inform the House if this action is a prelude to driving the Hobart Savings Bank into the hands of the Commonwealth Bank as was done in the case of the Government Savings Banks of New South Wales and Western Australia?
Mr LYONS:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No.
  2. No. A sum of £.10,000 has been paid off in cash and the balance of £10,000 has been renewed for a period of9 years. 3 and 4. No. The Government promised to discuss with the Treasurer of Tasmania, whilst he was in Melbourne attending the Loan Council meetings, the question of the renewal of the securities referred to. The matter was discussed in accordance with this promise.
  3. See answers to the previous questions.

page 136

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

page 136

WAR SERVICE HOMES

page 136

FEDERAL LAND TAX

page 136

PAPER

The following paper was presented : -

Northern Territory - Report on administration for year ended 30th June, 1931.

Ordered to be printed.

page 136

DAYS OF SITTING

Motion (by Mr. Lyons) - by leave - agreed to -

That, unlessotherwise ordered, the House shall meet on each Tuesday at8 p.m. ; on each Wednesday and Thursday at 2.30 p.m. ; and on each Friday at 10.30a.m.

page 136

AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION BILL

Message recommending appropriation reported.

In committee (Consideration of Governor-General’s message) :

Motion (by Mr. Fenton) proposed -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act relating to broadcasting.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

– Will the passing of this motion prevent certain amendments from being moved to the bill which is now under discussion in committee? I ask the Minister whether it will be possible to move to alter the salary of the general manager of the Australian Broadcasting Commission to be fixed under the bill. It seems to me that it may be ruled that it would be out of order to alter a salary already fixed by the Governor-General in Council.

– »

*Australian Broadcasting* [29 Apkil, 1932.] *Commission BiU.* 13T {: #debate-19-s1 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
PostmasterGeneral · Maribyrnong · UAP -- The motion is the usual one to authorize appropriations of revenue under the bill. Clause 27 states - >There shall bean Australian Broadcasting Commission Fund into which shall be paid from time to time out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, which is hereby appropriated accordingly, an amount which represents such portion of the fees received from broadcast listeners' licences as is fixed by or under this act. {: #debate-19-s2 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- Will the Minister give an assurance that the committee will have an opportunity of discussing the amount of salary to be paid to the general manager? {: #debate-19-s3 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper -- The committee has already discussed the subject of the personnel of the commission, but on examining the Commonwealth Bank Act, I notice that the provision for the appointment of the Governor and the Deputy Governor by the Governor-General in Council precedes the provision for the appointment of the Board of Directors. {: #debate-19-s4 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
PostmasterGeneral · Maribyrnong · UAP -- Clause 15 deals with the appointment of officers. Clauses 9 to 14 relate to such formal matters as leave of absence for members of the commission, and I suggest, there fore, that we pass those clauses without discussion, and proceed immediately to discuss clause 15. {: #debate-19-s5 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley .-I do not regard the passing of these clauses as merely a matter of form. If a man is absent from his duties without good reason it should not be overlooked. A fairly good salary has been fixed for the chairman and members of this commission, and we ought to ensure that the country will receive good service in return. What part of their time will these persons be required to spend at their broadcasting work? Nothing is said about this in the bill. For what part of their time may they absent themselves {: #debate-19-s6 .speaker-KZR} ##### Mr White:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA -- That is the principle of piece work. {: #debate-19-s7 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
PostmasterGeneral · Maribyrnong · UAP -- Honorable members must.know that regulations will be drafted in pursuance of the provisions of the bill which will cover the points that have been raised. The clauses now under notice are those usually inserted in a bill of this kind. If a man is absent through illness, he should be given consideration. Mr.rosevear. - I am not so much concerned about absence through illness as absence for other reasons. {: #debate-19-s8 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley -- Absence may not indicate inefficiency. Now that we are dealing with the responsibilities of these commissioners, we should take into consideration, not only their salary, but all thecircumstances surrounding their employment. I am not satisfied to allow the matter to remain in abeyance until regulations can be drafted and brought into force. {: #debate-19-s9 .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy .- Has not the power of the Minister to make regulations been taken from him by reason of certain amendments that have been made to the bill? It appears to me that any regulations will be drafted by the commissioners, who will undoubtedly take care to protect themselves. We desire to ensure that listeners and taxpayers generally will be protected. It is not our wish to make easy jobs for the political friends of the Government A man may absent himself from his duties for twelve months, and it may not be possible to take action against him. We all know how difficult it is to terminate the services of a person for inability, inefficiency, or misbehaviour. {: #debate-19-s10 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper -- There is a good deal in the suggestion of the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Rosevear),** that somethingshould be put into the bill to protect the interests of the taxpayers. Why cannot a provision be inserted in this bill similar to section 15 *c* of the Commonwealth Bank Act, which reads that - >The Governor, the Deputy-Governor, a director or a member of the London Board shall be deemed to have vacated hie office if- > >being a director he absents himself (except on leave granted by the Governor-General ) from all meetings of the board held during two consecutive months or during any three months in any period of twelve months A similar provision could be put in this bill, and I urge the Postmaster-General to agree to its insertion. This is a reasonable request. {: #debate-19-s11 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
PostmasterGeneral · Maribyrnong · UAP -- I direct the attention of honorable members to clause 12 of the bill, which reads - >The Governor-General may terminate the services of a commissioneror an acting commissioner for inability, inefficiency, or misbehaviour or for neglect or for failure to carry out any of the provisions of this act. Clause 9 deals with the illness or absence of the chairman, and clause 10 provides that - >In the case of the illness or absence of any other commissioner, the Governor-General may if he thinks fit appoint a person to perform the functions of the commissioner during such illness or absence. {: #debate-19-s12 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper -- We shall not have another opportunity of discussing this subject, and I ask the Postmaster-General to say definitely whether he will or will not include the provision. {: #debate-19-s13 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper -- I move - >That sub-clauseI be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following: - "A general manager shall be appointed by the Governor-General, shall hold office for a period not exceeding five years, and shall be eligible for re-appointment." At a later stage I also intend to move that, in place of sub-clause 2, a provision be inserted that the general manager shall be entitled to remuneration by way of salary at such rates as are fixed by the Governor-General. It was admitted last night by the Postmaster-General **(Mr. Penton)** that the greatest responsibility in connexion with the new form of control of broadcasting would fall upon' the shoulders of the general manager, and, in this circumstance, it is essential that we shall take every care that the best *mim* available is appointed. I should not have been so anxious to move this amendment had the proposal I made last night been agreed to, for that would have allowed of the widest possible choice in the selection of the general manager. {: #debate-19-s14 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr Archdale Parkhill:
Minister for the Interior · WARRINGAH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP -- What is the difference in effect between the two proposals ? {: #debate-19-s15 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan -- I am opposed to the amendment. If we are going to appoint this commission to do the job why should we tie its hands? At first I favoured an amendment of the clause to provide that the action of the commission should be subject to the approval of the Governor-General, but after consideration I thought that inadvisable; that it would be wiser to leave the appointment to the commission itself. The responsibility of carrying out this important task will be on the commission, and it would be most improper to subject that body to political -control. Already it is provided that the salaries to be paid to the general manager and certain others are to be approved by the Minister. I should prefer to see the words " GovernorGeneral " substituted for " Minister ". It is well that we should specify exactly what is desired. I reiterate that it would be most unwise, after, appointing the commission to do the job, to tie its hands and allow the Government to step in and make this appointment. {: #debate-19-s16 .speaker-F4U} ##### Mr FORDE:
Capricornia -- I support the amendment. It is only reasonable that the Federal Ministry should appoint the general manager. The success of tine broadcasting commission will depend largely upon the sort of person selected to act as general manager, particularly as the Government appears to have the idea that the members of the broadcasting commission will be in a position similar to that occupied by the board of directors of an insurance company. Apparently members of the commission will meet only once a month or once every two months, and the executive work will be ,in the care of the general manager. The right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** rightly pointed out that the federal Minister appoints the Governor and the Deputy Governor of the Commonwealth Bank, two officials who perform work that is infinitely greater than that which will be allocated to the general manager of the broadcasting commission. {: #debate-19-s17 .speaker-KXQ} ##### Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Minister for the Interior · Warringah · UAP -- I suggest that the interests of the community are amply safeguarded by the present wording of the clause. We have decided that a commission shall be appointed to control broadcasting, also that there shall be a general manager and competent staff to carry out the technical details of the scheme. The two bodies appear to me to be quite separate. It is especially desirable that the general manager and staff should be thoroughly competent, and this clause provides that the members of the commission shall cast about for the very best brains available for the executive positions. There is the implied safeguard that after the desired personnel has been located their appointment shall be approved or otherwise by the Minister, or in other words, the Government. {: #debate-19-s18 .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy .- The amendment moved by the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** conclusively proves his inconsistency. Throughout, the endeavour has been to free the Australian Broadcasting Commission from political control. The bill was temporarily withdrawn last March because it savoured too much of political control. Re-adjustments were made, and the Minister was deprived of many of the powers that previously were allotted to him. Now the right honorable member for Cowper desires that, after an efficient body of men has been selected and paid high salaries to act as the Australian Broadcasting Commission, they are not to be deemed competent to select a general manager; the Minister or parliamentary machine must do that for them. Yet I must congratulate the right honorable member for Cowper on seeing the light. Gradually he is coming round to our point of view, and shortly he will make the statement that he believes in the nationalization of this and other great public services. Although of a conservative disposition, he has a secret hankering for nationalization, but he lacks the courage of his convictions. This party does stand for nationalization, and it does not attempt to humbug and mislead the people on the issue. The amendment involves the principle of political interference. The right honorable member for Cowper cannot have it both ways. He must either stand for national control or noninterference, and give the commission full power to select its staff. No man with an independent spirit would act as chairman of the commission if he were dictated to by a political party. I contend that we should not interfere with the activities of the board. The country is calling out for economy, and this Government was appointed to put such a policy into effect. Now, after appointing five commissioners at substantial salaries to conduct broadcasting, it proposes to appoint a general manager and six senior officers at salaries which are not disclosed. My experience of government departments is that when an officer is placed in charge of a new department he has a staff of twelve or more around him within three months. {: #debate-19-s19 .speaker-KV7} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The honorable member is coming to our point of view. {: #debate-19-s20 .speaker-KZF} ##### Mr LANE:
Barton -- I oppose the amendment of the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** because the assumption is that the commission will not be competent to take over the complete control of broadcasting. That matter was thrashed out last night, when it was decided to abolish ministerial control. In view of that decision it is only right that the commission should appoint its own officers. If that were not so, what would be the position if the general manager came into conflict with the commission on a particular line of policy? If the general manager had the right of appeal to the Minister the commission would have absolutely no control. We should avoid any possibility of a deadlock occurring between the commission and the general manager. The amendment, if carried, would violate the first principle of business. If broadcasting is to be a success, the commission must have absolute control of its officers. In turn the general manager should select his own staff. If the Government interferes in any of these matters the staff will become disorganized and inefficient. The staff must be highly efficient if this great industry is to develop on proper lines. {: #debate-19-s21 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- The Government may appoint an incompetent commission. {: #debate-19-s22 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- I am still of that opinion. {: #debate-19-s23 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- This is not a personal matter with me. Isuggested that the Director of Posts and Telegraphs should be appointed to the commission because of the importance of his office. {: #debate-19-s24 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
PostmasterGeneral · Maribyrnong · UAP -- I cannot accept the amendment of the right honorable member forCowper **(Dr. Earle Page). His** proposal is revolutionary, because the intention of the amendment is that the Governor-General shall appoint a general manager for a term not exceeding five years. I agree with the contention of the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory).** If we are to repose confidence and responsibility in the commission surely we should allow it to select the staff which is to conduct broadcasting operations. If that responsibility is taken out of the hands of the commission, and conflict arises between that body and the general manager, it will say that it is not responsible for the appointment. The British legislation provides that the chief executive officer shall be called the DirectorGeneral, and that the first DirectorGeneral shall be John CharlesWalsall Reith. {: #debate-19-s25 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- Only for certain definite reasons. {: #debate-19-s26 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley .- With all due respect to the Minister, who desires to press on with the bill I, and those associated with me, are compelled to remind him that we are opposed to the appointment of any commission at all. If we are unable to defeat that proposal, at least we desire that as much control as possible may be left in the hands of the executive officers of the Government of the day. There seems to me to be nothing inconsistent between the amendment of the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page),** and clause 5 of the bill, which gives the commission authority to take charge of the general administration ofthe act. If the Government of the day is not to be trusted to appoint the general manager, how better can it be trusted to appoint the commission itself? If it is to be taken for granted that a general manager appointed by the Government must be an unsuitable person, it follows that those appointed by the Government as members of the commission are also likely to be unsuitable persons. The bill at present provides that the commission may appoint a general manager, and such other officers and servants as it thinks necessary, but it then goes on to say that the Minister must approve of the salaries paid. If the Government has to do the paying, it should have the say as to who is to be appointed. {: #debate-19-s27 .speaker-KV7} ##### Mr STEWART:
Parramatta -- I hope that the committee will agree to the clause as it stands, though. I should be prepared to amend sub-section 2, which gives the Minister the power to review the salaries proposed by the commission. In this respect I find myself in agreement with the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan).** Some honorable members appear to be overlooking the basic fact, that the general manager is to be the servant of the commission, and it will be his duty to carry into executive effect the policy decided upon by the commission. If that is not to be the procedure, why appoint a commission at all? For my part, I should not object very strongly to the elimination of the commission, but if there is to be one, then the general manager must be subject to it. {: #debate-19-s28 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- Why was the chief executive officer named in the British Broadcasting Bill? {: #debate-19-s29 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- There has been no conflict there. {: #debate-19-s30 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .- I support the amendment. It seems to me that the Government proposes to depart from ordinary business procedure in the manner of these appointments, and in this respect I disagree with the last speaker. In the commercial world it is the principals in any concern who appoint both the manager and the board of directors. In the case of an ordinary joint stock 'company the principals are the shareholders. In the case we are considering the principals are the public, whose power is vested in this Parlia ment. In a business concern the manager is the responsible person, while the board of directors is appointed to safeguard the interests of the principals, that is, the shareholders. The general manager to be appointed in connexion with broadcasting control should possess the highest qualifications, and a full knowledge of all the phases of the undertaking. We should then appoint a reputable directorate to oversee his operations, and to receive from him reports of hia activities, either' daily, weekly or fortnightly, as the case may be. I, myself, have been manager of a company, and I was the responsible person. The principals, that is, the shareholders, appointed me, and they also appointed the directorate. For every board meeting I had to prepare certain recommendations, which I submitted to the directors for their approval. {: #debate-19-s31 .speaker-KNX} ##### Mr E J HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944 -- The arguments which we have just heard regarding the application of business principles convinces me that it is high time that persons with business training took charge of the biggest business in this country, namely, the National Parliament. As a matter of fact, it would outrage all business principles to appoint a general manager and then appoint a board of directors to conflict with him. I support this clause because I feel that if the Government attempts to appoint a general manager and set him up in opposition to the commission, it will be asking for trouble. The honorable member for Capricornia **(Mr. Forde)** got tied up in the same way when he stated that the board of an insurance company left the whole of the business management of the concern to the general manager. I agree with him in that, but, at the same time, it is the directorate who appoint the general manager, and they exercise a full measure of control over him. There is no higher authority than the board of directors in the ordinary management of the business, and the board has full authority over the engagement and dismissal of staff. {: #debate-19-s32 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter .- I support the amendment moved by the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page).** I am somewhat of the opinion of the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan),that** in all probability the amendment conflicts with clause 5, which was amended to prevent any ministerial direction over the general administration of broadcasting. But everything depends on the interpretation of the words, "general administration". Lawyers may read into their meaning something which was not. the intention of the framers of this legislation. Broadcasting is a national utility, and as such should be controlled by the Government of the day. Listeners-in who provide the wherewithal to finance this venture should have some measure of protection, but they will not have it under commission control. I am opposed to the appointment of a commission, but now that the committee has accepted the principle of commission control, like the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Rosevear),** I want to get the best possible for those who pay the piper, and who should have some say in calling the tunes they get over the wireless. Under commission control, what redress will they have? If a member of Parliament receives a protest from a constituent, and makes representations to the responsible Minister, he will receive the stereotyped reply, " As the prescribed authority reports adversely, I regret that the request cannot be granted ". The Minister should be the prescribed authority. The right honorable member for Cowper is to be complimented on his amendment, because it would provide at least some control by this Parliament over appointees, and enable this Parliament to criticize the Minister if the persons selected were not fit to occupy their positions. As the bill stands, we do not know who are to be appointed. We have no guarantee that Eric Campbell or " De Goat " may not be appointed, or that New Guard concerts may not be broadcast contrary to the wishes of listenersin. Appointment of the general manager by the Governor-General is the proper method to adopt, and I trust that ministerial control will be re-inserted in the bill. {: #debate-19-s33 .speaker-KHO} ##### Mr HOLMAN:
Martin .- Ordinarily, I should be satisfied to follow the guidance of the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** on this bill, because it was clear from the address he delivered yesterday that he has made a closestudy of the subject; but I cannot help thinking that the amendment he has now proposed involves a departure from, not perhaps business principles exactly, but from administrative principles. I do not think that business principles should dominate the control of broadcasting provided for in this measure. I share the disappointment of the right honorable member that we have not received the information we should have as to the proposed personnel of the broadcasting commission ; but the chamber has already determined that this enterprise shall be conducted by a commission which is not subject to ministerial control. If the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan)** will permit me to say so, I think that broadcasting can be conducted as a national enterprise with safety, provided that it not subjected to the eccen- tricities of political management. That is the policy that, has been adopted. The committee has determined to set up an independent commission, which will be a sort of buffer, to prevent infliction upon an inoffending public of the aesthetic and political ideas of members of Parliament and their friends. Surely the right honorable member for Cowper does not desire to bring in by a side door what has already been shut out at the front door. Apart from the possibility of conflict between the commission and a general manager independent of the commission, appointed by Ministers, and naturally looking to those who have appointed him for approval, there is this objection to what is proposed, that the appointment of a general manager by the Government brings back a certain element of political control. {: #debate-19-s34 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- The State Railways Commissioners are practically in a position like that of the general manager of the proposed broadcasting service. They are full-time officers, and are intimately associated with the actual administration and management of the concerns they control. {: #debate-19-s35 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Does not a government appoint the railways commissioners of a State? {: #debate-19-s36 .speaker-L08} ##### Mr Rosevear: -- Does the honorable member contend that a coherent policy can be followed by part-time commissioners with no insistence upon their attendances ? {: #debate-19-s37 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper -- A good deal of the discussion on this particular matter has been based on theoretical assumption. It is suggested that, if the general manager were appointed by the Government of the day, the commission would be deprived of power ; that it would not be able to function, and that the control of broadcasting would be lacking in business principles. But, when the British Broadcasting Corporation was brought into being, the British Parliament deliberately adopted the principle I am now recommending, by appointing, not only a board of governors to lay down a general policy, but also the director-general, and naming him in the bill. That system has now been in force in England for seven years, with the result that the British broadcasting system is one of the best in the world. Yet we are assured to-day that the same method of appointment would result in general chaos and disturbance. {: #debate-19-s38 .speaker-KIX} ##### Mr Hutchinson:
INDI, VICTORIA -- The appointment may be " cooked." {: #debate-19-s39 .speaker-KHO} ##### Mr Holman: -- The British Government and Parliament had a particular man in view. {: #debate-19-s40 .speaker-KV7} ##### Mr Stewart: -- I hope not. {: #debate-19-s41 .speaker-KIX} ##### Mr HUTCHINSON:
Indi .- The majority of honorable members have declared against political control in connexion with broadcasting, and I am surprised, therefore, that the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** should propose an amendment which will involve even a small measure of control by this Parliament. If the general manager were appointed by the Government, his actions would be subject to criticism, which might effect him in the exercise of his duties, and through him influence the commission. The example of the British Broadcasting Corporation has been mentioned by the mover of the amendment, but we are not obliged to follow any precedent; our endeavour should be to improve upon what has been done elsewhere. If the commission is not absolutely free from political control we shall create serious obstacles to the selection of the best man for that work. The Postmaster-General **(Mr. Fenton)** has declared that the commissioners should be men of ripe judgment, full knowledge, and independence. We shall get the services of the best . men available only if they are assured that they' will not be hampered by political interference. {: #debate-19-s42 .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra .- The bill originally drafted by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A.** Green) contained a clause similar to that now before the committee, and for that reason members of the Opposition might be expected to support the clause now; but the present Government has drastically altered the proposals of its predecessor in regard to the control of broadcasting. My government proposed a salary for the chairman of the commission, which contemplated a full-time appointment; necessarily that appointment would have been made by the Government. If that principle had been retained there would be no need for the amendment proposed by the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page).** But as the commission is to be composed of parttime men whose attention will range over many fields of activity, there will not be one full-time officer appointed by the Government in charge of broadcasting unless the amendment is agreed to. The honorable member for Indi **(Mr. Hutchinson)** seemed to be astonished that anybody should suggest that Parliament should exercise control over the commission. When he has had a little more experience he will not give expression to such reactionary sentiments. The general manager is to be the only full-time officer directing broadcasting throughout the Commonwealth, and yet we are told that this Parliament should not, through the Government, have a voice in his appointment. If that is to be our policy we had better abolish. Parliaments, and hand over government to a bureaucracy. The danger pf political control can be exaggerated. There is justification for the amendment which, however, would not be necessary if the chairman were to be a full-time officer as the previous Government intended. The departure from that principle has gravely weakened the control of broadcasting. I have no desire for finicky interference by any minister or government with the control of broadcasting, nor do I desire a member to be embarrassed 'by the importunities of persons who believe that their talents should be voiced over the air. But in the final resort this Parliament must have control. Broadcasting is one of the most important services of the community The commission now proposed will consist of men giving only the fag end of their time to this important work. The only permanent directing officer will he the general manager. Honorable members have spoken of the lack of harmony that might result if the general manager were appointed by the Government ; but in connexion with the Commonwealth Bank the Governor was so appointed. The Commonwealth Bank Board is charged with the management and control of that institution, but broadcasting does not fall within the same category as banking; it is not of the same serious importance. Would any member of this committee favour the appointment of the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank by the Board of Directors, who themselves are part-time officers? The Governor of the Commonwealth Bank is the only controlling officer of that institution who is employed on full time, and, therefore, he is appointed by the Government. If the chairman of the Broadcasting Commission were made a full-time officer and were appointed by the Government, I would not support the amendment. {: #debate-19-s43 .speaker-JUD} ##### Mr DEIN:
Lang .- I intend to support the clause as it stands. I was somewhat impressed by the statement of the Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Scullin)** that the position should be considered in the light of the fact that the chairman of the commission would not be a full-time officer, but whether he is a full or a part-time officer is immaterial. It will be the duty of the commission to see that the policy laid down is carried out, and, therefore, I contend that the commission should be charged with the responsibility of choosing the general manager. This Parliament is providing for the appointment of a commission, because it is considered that a commission will be a more suitable body than the Parliament to formulate the broadcasting policy. The honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan)** mentioned that he would support the amendment, because it would result in a step nearer socialization than would be made by the clause as it stands. If a general manager is appointed by the Government, he will be likely to adopt the policy favoured by the Government. It is possible that the Governmerit, as well as the commission, will lay down a broadcasting policy. If the general manager owes his position to the Government, he will probably favour the policy of the Ministry, lest he may lose his job. Much will depend on the character of the government in power. If it happens to be one-tenth as bad as the Ministry now in office in New South Wales, I have doubts as to the suitability of the appointment that will bo made. **Mr. Cleary** was appointed to take charge of the railways in that State because he was considered to be the best man for the position, but he lost his job because he refused to carry out the policy of the State Government. If the general manager of the broadcasting commission were appointed by the Commonwealth Government, he might be a pliable servant in its hands, whereas if the commission made the appointment, the general manager would not be responsible to the Government. {: #debate-19-s44 .speaker-KFK} ##### Sir LITTLETON GROOM:
Darling Downs -- I have followed the debate with much interest, althoughI have not previously participated in it. The right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** drew rather a false analogy in suggesting that the members of the House are directors. The members of this Parliament are elected to legislate within their constitutional powers, to criticize acts of administrations, and make and unmake ministries, and to discuss matters of policy; but it is hardly within the province of a Parliament to select officials and administer. This Parliament makes laws in the interests of the people of the Commonwealth, and as the listeners-in cannot be organized as a corporate body, and as broadcasting is a matter of public interest, it is advisable to establish a commission for the purpose of controlling the business ofbroadcasting. The vital principle to be observed in the appointment of the commission is the prevention of political influence. Parliament cannot, of course, divest itself of its responsibility, and there must always be a Minister to answer for any legal body set up under the authority of Parliament. The bill as it stands seems to safeguard us against the dangers of political interference; but ministerial responsibility must be exercised in the appointment of the commission. The government of the day will be responsible to the Parliament for the commission that is appointed. If the personnel of the commission is not such as that indicated by the honorable member for Martin **(Mr. Holman),** this Parliament can call the Ministry to task for its failure to secure the best men available, and if it were subsequently found that the commission was not carrying out its duties satisfactorily, the Ministry would be responsible. Parliament will always retain control; but the commission, once constituted, should be free from political interference. The commission can surely be trusted to appoint the officers needed to carry out the service of broadcasting. Therefore, I consider that it would be wrong to make the general manager an appointee of the government of the day. That might well lead to a conflict of authority. The general manager would naturally look for the approval of his conduct to those who had appointed him, and would expect direction from them. Question - That the words proposed to be omitted **(Dr. Earlepage's amend ment)** stand part of the clause - put. The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Bell.) AYES: 36 NOES: 26 Majority . . 10 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. {: #debate-19-s45 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper .- I move - >That at the end of sub-clause 1, the following words be inserted: - "subject to the approval of the Governor-General ". My purpose is to ensure that the appointment of the general manager - I am not so much concerned about other officers of the commission - shall be made with the approval of the Governor-General. I submit the amendment because, following the decision of the committee last night, it would appear that this anaemic commission will meet only occasionally, so that practically the whole control of national broadcasting will ultimately fall into the hands of the general manager, who will be a full-time official. I do not suggest that he should be appointed by the Government. An appointment so made might result in some person with ideas inimical to the general policy of the commission securing the position ; but if the commission has power to make the appointment, subject to the approval of the Governor-General, we may be reasonably sure that the person selected will be in sympathy with the general policy of the commission. Last night the committee decided that the control of national broadcasting should virtually be in the hands of the general manager. In these circumstances I consider it desirable that, as regards the appointment of general manager, the power of veto should be vested in the Government. The bill really contains no indication of policy at all. This must be determined by the general manager. "With - the alteration of a few words the measure might just as well be regarded as one for the appointment of a milk board or an egg board. It is right that the duration of the commission should be for a definite and fixed term of years, but the GovernorGeneral should have the right of veto as regards the appointment of the general manager. {: #debate-19-s46 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- I regard that remark as personally offensive and absolutely unwarranted. {: #debate-19-s47 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I agree with the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page),** and support his amendment. I also deprecate the tone adopted by the honorable member for Barton **(Mr. Lane).** It is regrettable that, simply because some honorable members may in all sincerity disagree with others upon certain aspects of the Government's proposals, they should be charged with endeavouring to secure the adoption of amendments almost, identical with proposals that have already been rejected. The Minister and his supporters should realize that there is honest disagreement with the Government on this matter, and they should be prepared to listen to the views of the minority, even if they cannot accept the amendments submitted. This amendment is entirely different from that rejected by the committee prior to the luncheon adjournment. If an appointment made by the commission is not approved by the GovernorGeneral, the position will not be affected so far as the commission is concerned, because that body will still have the right of selection. All that the amendment means is that the person appointed shall be approved of by the GovernorGeneral, which, as we all know, means the Government. {: #debate-19-s48 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter .- I support the amendment'. It is a modest request, and despite what the honorable member for Barton has said, it differs entirely from the amendment submitted by the right honorable member for Cowper this morning. I remind honorable members that sub-clause 2 provides that the fixation of the salaries of the general manager and the next six senior officers shall be subject to the approval of the Minister. Is it not anomalous that honorable members raise no objection to that, but oppose the amendment of the right honorable member for Cowper? No doubt the amount of salary that will be paid depends upon the support that these executive officers are prepared to give to the Government. We know that the amendment forecast by the Minister in sub-clause 2 is on all fours with that with which we are now dealing, and to which the honorable gentleman refuses to give approval. There should be consistency in these matters, and the Minister should accept the amendment. Question - That the words proposed to be inserted (Dr. Earle Page's amendment) be so inserted - put. The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Bell.) AYES: 26 NOES: 34 Majority . . . . 9 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Amendment (by **Mr. Fenton)** proposed - That the word " Minister ", sub-clause 2, be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " Governor-General ". {: #debate-19-s49 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper .- Now we shall be able to test the sincerity of honorable members opposite. Throughout this debate we have heard them claim that if the commission is to be appointed it should be trusted and given an absolutely free hand. Yet it is now proposed that the fixing of the salaries to be paid to the general manager and his six senior executives shall be taken out of the hands of the commission and placed under the control of the Government. That makes it possible for the Government to hamstring the operations of the commission by offering salaries that are absurdly inadequate for the jobs. These details should be left in the hands of the commission, and I hope that the committee will reject this amendment. {: #debate-19-s50 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter . -I wish to move an amendment to the first line of sub-clause 2, to provide that the salary payable to the general manager shall be limited to £500 per annum {: #debate-19-s51 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton:
UAP -- I appeal to the honorable member to observe the rules of fair play by refraining from delaying the passage of the measure. {: #debate-19-s52 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton:
UAP -- I am not prepared to withdraw my amendment. Mr.RIORDAN (Kennedy) [2.48].- If the Minister's amendment is carried, all control over expenditure will pass from this Parliament. We do not know what salaries are to be paid. The Premier of every State, and the Prime Minister and the Assistant Treasurer of the Commonwealth are exerting every effort to cut down expenditure; yet, without having any say as to what appointments shall be made, or what salaries shall be paid, we are asked to agree to a proposal under which control over expenditure will be taken away from this Parliament. The Government will be the custodian of the revenue collected from broadcasting, and should not delegate to a commission its powers in regard to expenditure. In the past we have had highly-paid officers controlling commissions, and the results have been detrimental to the best interests of Australia. I am the holder of a listener's licence, and look for the redress of any wrong to the body to whomI pay the fee of 24s. a year. Is it intended that the commission shall be responsible for the collection of wireless revenue? If the Minister allows control to pass out of his hands, the commission will be able to spend the revenue it receives without any regard for the protests of those who contribute to the upkeep of wireless services. From an educational point of view, the bill is not worth' the paper on which it is printed. The arrangement of the programmes will rest with the general manager and the board. How could they be removed from office unless this Parliament were able to exercise some control over them? The right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** claimedthat Government members should show their consistency by supporting a proposal to take control out of the hands of the Minister. It is now sought to cover up their inconsistency by substituting the Governor-General for the Minister; and that, it is pointed out, is a distinction without a difference. The principle involved is identical with that to which the Government so strongly objected at an earlier stage, and its acceptance now means that the time occupied in the consideration of the bill this morning was wasted. The Ministerhas not given the committee any information as to what the effect of his proposal will be. If the position is not altered, why is it necessary to make the change? In the interest of the taxpayer, some limitation should be placed on the salaries that are to be paid. The bill should be dropped, and control of broadcasting allowed to remain where it is at the present time until our financial position improves. This will impose an additional burden on the taxpayers of the Commonwealth, who will not have any say in the expenditure, although the Government will be responsible for any losses incurred by the commission. {: #debate-19-s53 .speaker-JWT} ##### Mr FRANCIS:
Assistant Minister · Moreton · UAP -- The intention of the Government, when framing this clause, was to protect the revenue by preventing the payment by the commission of the excessive salaries referred to by the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. Riordan).** Probably there will be in each of the States some person acting on behalf of the commission. If the salaries of the general manager and of those who conduct the operations of the commission in the six States have to be approved by the Governor-General, the funds of the commission will be protected, and no excessive payments can be made. This is a proposal to ensure that the standard set at the commencement of the commission's operations shall be by no means extravagant. The honorable member for Kennedy argued that some limitation should be placed on the amount that may be paid by way of salary, so that it may not be excessive. The amendment imposes that limitation, and I appeal to the committee to agree to it. Amendment agreed to. {: #debate-19-s54 .speaker-KJQ} ##### Mr JAMES:
Hunter -- I move - >That the following proviso be added to subclause 2 : - > >Provided that such salaries shall not exceed £800 in thecase of the general manager and the next six most highly paid executive officers." - There should be some limitation to the remuneration of these officers. The bill fixes the salary of the members of the commission. The chairman is to receive £500 a year, the vice-chairman £400, and the other commissioners £300. Considerable work will devolve upon the general manager, and his time is likely to be fully occupied. A salary of £800 would be reasonable and sufficient to enable the general manager to live in comfort, taking into consideration the difficult times through which we are passing, and the fact that to-day many of our people have not the means to purchase even the bare necessaries of life. {: #debate-19-s55 .speaker-KZF} ##### Mr Lane: -- What salary is **Mr. Goode** receiving? {: #debate-19-s56 .speaker-KHL} ##### Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936 . - There should be in the bill some direct link between the Government and the commission. The extreme view in this chamber is that private enterprise should have absolute freedom. The Government is anxious that the commission shall be absolutely untrammelled, so that it may carry out its work successfully, but always with the idea in mind that private enterprise must be safeguarded. I am supporting every clause which leaves some link between the Government and the commission, and as this clause does that to a slight degree, 1 have no wish to alter it, and shall, therefore, vote for it as it stands. I voted for the previous amendment of the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page),** because its object was to provide a permanent link between the Minister and the commission. I thought that a wise and proper provision, and if accepted it would have been a reasonable compromise with the Government, As this clause does provide some link between the Government and the commission, I cannot understand the objection of the right honorable member for Cowper to it. {: #debate-19-s57 .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra .- There arc three points of view in respect of this clause. The first is that of the right honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page),** who does not seem to believe the contention that he has put forward.I, therefore, do not think that this committee should record a vote of the nature that he has suggested. His contention is that because the committee would not agree to the amendment which vested control in the Minister in respect of the appointment of a general manager, the Minister should have no say in the fixing of the salary of that officer. He is undoubtedly demanding consistency from Government supporters. I agreed with his previous amendment, but, because of that, I must support the clause as it stands. I shall not call for a division or cast a vote merely out of pique. I support the clause as amended. The amendment after all makes no real difference, because it merely substitutes the word, "GovernorGeneral " for the word " Minister." One could hardly imagine the Minister acting without the concurrence of Cabinet. The next question is whether there should be any safeguard as to the amount of the salaries that the commission will pay to its staff. The honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. James)** has moved an amendment which, if accepted, will fix the amount, but that is not a sound way to fix salaries, because this committee is not in a position to determine what is equitable remuneration for the members of the staff. The provision in the bill is a wise one. It does not give untrammelled power to the commission to fix the salaries of the officers: it provides that the salaries payable must be subject to approval by the Governor-General. For all practical purposes the Governor-General means the Government, I urge the committee to support the clause as printed. {: #debate-19-s58 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper .- Shall we be given an opportunity to vote on the sub-clause itself when this amendment has been disposed of, or shall we be required to vote on the clause as a whole ? There are portions of this clause with which I agree, but other portions I cannot support. I suggest that we be given the opportunity to vote on each of the sub-clauses. {: #debate-19-s59 .speaker-KFK} ##### Sir Littleton Groom: -- I rise to a point of order. We have agreed to the substitution of " Governor-General " for " Minister ", and, therefore, we have affirmed the clause up to that point. Are we now to throw the whole question open again by dealing separately with subclauses 1, 2 and 3? The sub-clauses can only be put to the committee separately by leave. {: #debate-19-s60 .speaker-KFK} ##### Sir Littleton Groom: -- We have passed the whole clause up to the word " Governor-General," which has, I understand, been inserted. There being no prior amendment, any amendment must affect the clause beyond that point. {: #debate-19-s61 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- That is all that I ask. {: #debate-19-s62 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES -- The position is that we cannot go back. {: #debate-19-s63 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Cowper .- I do not wish that a vote be taken on this sub-clause, as amended, merely from any motive of pique; but, in its present form, the clause offers a means whereby the intention of the bill may be defeated by the Government should it reduce the salaries of the seven executive officers to such a small amount that we shall be unable to get first-class men. If that is the view of the committee - that the commission should be in complete control of wireless broadcasting in Australia, and with one exception, it is my view - then I submit that the commission should not be debarred from paying to its officers whatever salaries it thinks should be paid to them. Otherwise, we shall definitely restrict the range of possible appointees. {: #debate-19-s64 .speaker-KV7} ##### Mr STEWART:
Parramatta -- I am sorry that the Minister has insisted on retaining to the GovernorGeneral the right to fix the salaries of the officers of the commission. It has been urged that the committee should insist on the salary of the general manager being fixed by the commission. I agree with those who maintain that no authority is better qualified than is the commission to estimate the importance of the position of general manager, and, surely, in that case, no one is better qualified than the commission to estimate the value of his services. I shall vote against the sub-clause. {: #debate-19-s65 .speaker-KOL} ##### Mr McBRIDE:
Grey .- I agree with the honorable member for Parramatta **(Mr. Stewart)** that, if the commission is to have control of wireless broadcasting in Australia, it should not only have the right to appoint the general manager, but should also determine his salary. The bill provides that a proportion of the fees from listeners shall be allocated to the commission. I am prepared to allow that body to decide how that money shall be spent. Should the commission consider it advisable to expend a larger proportion of its revenue than we think necessary in order to obtain a suitable man as general manager, I am prepared to trust it to do what is best. I shall support the amendment. Question - That sub-clause 2, as amended, be agreed to - put. The committee divided. ( Chairman - Mr. Bell.) AYES: 42 NOES: 16 Majority . . . . 26 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Sub-clause agreed to. Sub-clause 3 agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 16 - (2.) The hours during which programmes shall he broadcast from the various national broadcasting stations shall he subject to the approval of the Minister. Motion (by **Mr. Fenton)** proposed - That sub-clause 2 be omitted. {: #debate-19-s66 .speaker-KYZ} ##### Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy .- There is no indication in this provision, which deals with the powers and functions of the commission, that there will be any improvement in the programmes broadcast. Many country people are anxious that the broadcasting service shall be used more extensively for educational purposes, perhaps by using the system in country schools. Some of the musical programmes now broadcast are of little or no educational value. Families living in the country have not the same opportunities for receiving musical instruction as those in the metropolitan area. The teachers themselves, in country districts, are not able to keep abreast of current musical developments. Hundreds of thousands of pounds are paid to theRoyal Academy of Music in examination fees - a fact which indicates the interest taken in musical training in this country. The Government should do its part to assist in this direction by seeing that dwellers in country districts are able to receive lectures and instruction on musical subjects by wireless. Even the ordinary programmes given over the wireless would be made much more interesting and instructive if they were accompanied by suitable explanations. For instance, to the uninitiated, the song, "You tak' the HighRoad and I'll tak' the Low," probably means very little, because they do notknow thehistory of the song. It is much the same as if I were to go to a performance at a French theatre. It would mean nothing to me, because I would be unacquainted with the language ; but, if the script of the play were put before me in English, I should be able to follow it with enjoyment. Pianoforte music appeals to me very much; but, because I have not had the advantage of a musical education, a selection from Chopin would mean little or nothing to me unless it were properly explained. Only recently the honorable member for the Northern Territory **(Mr. Nelson)** told me something of the story behind the song " When other lips and other hearts." What would that song, without any explanation, convey to the right honorable member for North Sydney **(Mr. Hughes)** ? Probably about as much as it would convey to me. I was told that the man who composed the music of that song was never able to publish it, because he was a beggar. On one occasion, he went to the house of a certain bank manager to beg for clothes. While the bank manager was out of the room getting the clothes, the beggar sat down at the piano and played the music which he had composed. Hia benefactor, hearing the music, was greatly impressed by it, and promised to finance its publication. The beggar went out into the street, and Avas killed in an accident. That story would be of great interest to the child mind, and, in regard to music, the child mind may be of any age from five to 55. Let us consider the position of a boundary rider living on the borders of the Northern Territory. He may have a family of eight or ten, and be desirous of giving them something in the nature of a musical education. He purchases a wireless set, pays his licence-fee, and has a right to expect instruction as well as amusement from the programmes he is able to pick up. His children are as much entitled to the benefits of a musical educa tion as are those living in the cities. Provision should be made on the broadcasting programmes for lectures and instruction on musical and other educational subjects for the benefit of country dwellers. A direction to this effect might, of course, be regarded as interfering with the authority of the commission, which will probably be composed of city men chosen for political purposes. In my opinion, there should be on that commission a representative of the country districts, one who knows the requirements of those living in the country, and who will see that they get some return for their money. The Government might even go so far as to make wireless sets available to country residents, for which they Will merely have to pay rent. This would be at least some compensation to them for their isolation. A close acquaintance of mine is an old blind pensioner Who has a little crystal set for which he pays a licence-fee of 24s. a year. He was a pioneer of the mining industry. "What service doe3 he get now in the mornings? Nothing but headlines from the newspapers - no lectures. En my opinion the blind should be given free licences to listen in. I repeat that the story behind the song or musical selection should be given. Country residents should have the opportunity to learn something more than the prices of their potatoes or their wool, important though that information undoubtedly is to them. {: .page-start } page 156 {:#debate-20} ### ADJOURNMENT Order of Business - Destruction of Rabbits Price of Poisons - Listeners' Licence-Pees: Exemption of Invalid Pensioners. {: #debate-20-s0 .speaker-F4O} ##### Mr LYONS:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wilmot · UAP -- I move - That the House do now adjourn. The committee stage on the Australian Broadcasting Commission Bill will be resumed on Tuesday, but if the Government's unemployment proposals are ready they will be introduced and the debate upon them adjourned in order to give honorable members an opportunity to consider them before proceeding with their discussion. {: #debate-20-s1 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan .- In reference to the question which I asked the other day relative to the price of poisons used for the destruction of rabbits, I should like the Prime Minister to say that an immediate investigation will be made to see why these essentials are so scarce and whY they .cannot be supplied at a much cheaper price. The rabbit menace is assuming great proportions, not only in Western Australia, but in other parts of the Commonwealth, and the price asked for poisons is, to my mind, somewhat in the nature of barefaced robbery. {: #debate-20-s2 .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh .- I should like the Postmaster-General to take into consideration the position of persons in receipt of invalid pensions who are not able to pay the listeners'-in licencefee entitling them to the privilege of enjoying the reception of music over the wireless. We all know that in some institutions where these invalids find shelter the provision of wireless is a wonderful help to them in their moments of affliction. To listen in on a wireless set would be an equally great source of comfort to others who are living in private homes, whos( lack of means prevents them from enjoying it. I should like the Minister to go into the matter carefully and see if he can extend to those persons living in private homes the privilege of relieving the serious monotony which their invalidity entails by permitting them to have free listeners'-in licences. {: #debate-20-s3 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
PostmasterGeneral · Maribyrnong · UAP -- I agree with practically everything the honorable member for Hindmarsh **(Mr. Matin)** has said, and I hope to be in a position to indicate what assistance is likely to be afforded to those who have been deprived of their sight. In this connexion I pay a tribute to the officers of the Postal Department who devote their week-ends and Saturday afternoons to the making of wireless sets, which they install in various public institutions. I cannot say that I would go the whole length suggested by the honorable member - I am hopeful that the control of broadcasting will very shortly pass into other handsbut I can assure him that the matter is being considered and that, so far as is practicable, we hope to be able to adopt his suggestion. {: #debate-20-s4 .speaker-F4O} ##### Mr LYONS:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wilmot · UAP -- I understand that the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory)** has placed the matter of rabbit poisons before the Minister for Trade and Customs, who has promised an investigation. I shall suggest to the Minister that the promised investigation be expedited. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 3.50.p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 29 April 1932, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1932/19320429_reps_13_134/>.