House of Representatives
30 October 1931

12th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker (Hon. NormanMakin) took thechair at 2 p.m., and offered prayers.

page 1400

QUESTION

STUD STOCK

Removal of Primage Duties

Mr GIBBONS:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Some time ago the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Forde) promised to reconsider the primage duty on stud stock. Has he yet reached a decision on the matter?

Mr FORDE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– The Government, when increasing the primage duties generally from 4 per cent. to 10 per cent., allowed stud stock to remain dutiable at the old rate. When the primage rates were under consideration several honorable members urged that stud stock should be exempt. Realizing that the introduction of new blood is of paramount importance for the improvement of our flocks and herds,I promised to reconsider the matter. The Government has now decided that cattle, sheep, pigs and draught horses, shall be admitted without payment of primage duty, but race horses will still be subject to the rate of 4 per cent. The necessary legislative action will be taken to give effect to thisdecision.

page 1400

QUESTION

CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT

Mr THOMPSON:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Prime Minister yet inform the House of the Government’s intentions regarding the proposed referendum upon the amendment of the Constitution ?

Mr SCULLIN:
YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Not at present.

page 1400

QUESTION

DIRECTOR OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS

Mr ELDRIDGE:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– When speaking on the Supplementary Estimates on the 22nd October, I drew attention to a cash payment of £1,000 to a highly-paid official in the Government service. Following further reference to the matter by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) the Treasurer said -

That informationhas been published in the Estimates, andhas been available to honorable members for over two years.

Does the Treasurer still adhere to that statement, or was it made under a misapprehension ?

Mr SCULLIN:
Minister for External Affairs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– The honorable member was good enough to intimate that he proposed to ask this question, and on behalf of the Treasurer; I submit the following reply: -

The honorarium is shown as expenditure of the Postmaster-General’s Department in 1928- 29, on page 293 of the Estimates for 1929- 30. It is also shownas expenditure on page 59 of theFinance Statement for 1928-29, and in the same volume on page 187 as an item in the Supplementary Estimates for that year. Those are the Supplementary Estimates whichwere under discussion when the honorable member for Martin criticised theitem.

page 1401

QUESTION

BUSINESS PAPER

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– In view of the fact that two wheat bounty bills have been dealt with in this House since it was introduced, when does the Prime Minister propose to move for the discharge of the earlier Wheat Bill, which appears as No. 9 in the Orders of the Day?

Mr SCULLIN:
ALP

– Several of the items appearing on the notice-paper will have to be discharged, the Wheat Bill amongst them.

page 1401

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK BOARD

Mr. George Crowley

Mr LATHAM:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA

– Yesterday the Prime Minister, in reply to a question by me concerning the rumoured appointment of Mr. George Crowley to the Commonwealth Bank Board, said that the matter had not been considered by the Government. I invite the attention of the right honorable gentleman to the following statement published in the Melbourne Age of yesterday: -

Mr. George Crowley, Managing Directorof the City Mutual Life Assurance Society, tonight admitted that he has been asked to accept a seat on the Commonwealth Bank Board.

In view of that reported admission, has the Prime Minister anything to add to the statement he made yesterday?

Mr SCULLIN:
ALP

– I have nothing to add. The appointment of a director to fill the vacancy on the Commonwealth Bank Board has not been considered by the Government, and no overtures have been made to any individual.

page 1401

QUESTION

MATERNITY ALLOWANCE

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

-I ask the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Treasurer, whether it is a fact that certain maternity hospitals are collecting the maternity allowance due to patients who are on the dole? Is it possible to take action to prevent this practice, which reacts unfairly on women who are in destitute circumstances and require the allowance for the purchase of clothing for their newborn infants?

Mr SCULLIN:
ALP

– I shall inquire into the matter, and let the honorable member have a reply.

page 1401

QUESTION

EMBARGO ON IMPORTS

Mr GREGORY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the adverse trade balance has been rectified, the Government will favorably consider the removal of the embargo on the importation of many articles that are essential to primary production?

Mr SCULLIN:
ALP

– The Government has been constantly reviewing these items, because it desires to remove the embargoes as soon as that can be safely done. The prohibition of certain imports is not part of the protectionist policy of the Government; it is a financial emergency measure. The Commonwealth is not yet in a safe position, for although the trade balance has shown a wonderful improvement, we must have a considerable credit balance in order to meet our liabilities overseas. As soon as it is possible to do so, the embargoes will be removed ; first from the goodsmost urgently required. When imposing the embargo, the Government was careful to select goods that were not essential to Australian industry, and goods that could be produced in Australia.

page 1401

TRADE WITH NEW CALEDONIA

Mr. ARCHDALE PARKHILL.Having regard to the fact that the French authorities in New Caledonia have imposed an import duty of £4 a ton on Australian rice, in retaliation for the Commonwealth tariff policy, does the Minister for Markets propose to make representations to the French Government with a view to its removal?

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The allegation of the honorable member is similar to the statement recently made that Japan was adopting a certain attitude towards Australian wool because of the tariff policy of the Commonwealth. When such statements are investigated they are found to be without foundation. I have no evidence that the New Caledonian tax on Australian rice is a retaliatory measure.

Mr LATHAM:

– I ask the Minister for Trade and Customs (1) has a duty of £4 a ton been imposed in New Caledonia on Australian rice; (2) has the Minister any information regarding the reason for the imposition of this apparently discriminatory duty; (3) if. so, what is the information, and from what source was it obtained?

Mr FORDE:
ALP

– I read in the newspapers the statement that such a tax had been imposed in New Caledonia, but there is no evidence that it is retaliatory. Communications I have received indicate that the people of New Caledonia, and the French people generally, entertain the utmost good feeling towards Australia. We want to encourage that sentiment in every possible way.

page 1402

QUESTION

SALES TAX

Sewing Twine

Mr KILLEN:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– As sewing twine becomes part of the containers of primary produce, and as those containers are free ofsales tax, will the Minister for Trade and Customs exempt twine also?

Mr FORDE:
ALP

– Although the officers of the Trade and Customs Department assist in the collection of the sales tax, the administration is controlled by the Commissioner of Taxation, who is an officer of the Treasury. If the honorable member will direct his question to the Treasurer it will, I am sure, receive sympathetic consideration.

page 1402

QUESTION

RESUMPTION OF SESSION

Mr THOMPSON:

-Having regard to the slow progress ofthe tariff debate in the Senate, does the Government propose to ask this House to re-assemble before Christmas? If the tariff has not been’ disposed of by the Senate before this House re-assembles, what business will the Government submit to honorable members?

Mr SCULLIN:
ALP

– The Government proposes to ask the House to adjourn to the 25th of November, or such earlier date as Mr. Speaker shall notify to honorable members. By that time the tariff schedule should be almost disposed of in the Senate. One of the measures to be dealt with on the re-assembling of the House is a bill for the appointment of a commission to control broadcasting. There willalso be a small amendment of the Income Tax Assessment Act.

Mr Thompson:

– Will the referendum bills be dealt with then?

Mr SCULLIN:

– I cannot say offhand. If the honorable member were not present in this chamber a week or so ago, let me inform him that I then stated that the Government intended to reintroduce the three bills that were previously debated” by this Parliament. I have nothing further to add, because we have not yet determined when these bills will be introduced.

Mr LATHAM:

– In view of the complete uncertainty as to when the Senate will complete the consideration of the tariff,will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of adjourning the House to a date to be notified by Mr. Speaker? I suggest that if that were done, and the 25 th November turned out to be a suitable date, it would still be within his power to assemble honorable members then.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I shall, within the next few minutes, give consideration to the honorable member’s suggestion.

page 1402

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE

Five-day Week.

Mr YATES:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Is it the intention to apply the principle of the five-day week to the parliamentary staff?

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Yes ; so far as possible.

page 1402

REDISTRIBUTION OF SEATS

Mr. ARCHDALE PARKHILL.Does the Government propose to proceed with the legislation providing for the redistribution of seats before the expiration of this Parliament?

Mr SCULLIN:
ALP

– That matterconcerns the Ministerfor Home Affairs, andI shall submit it to him.

page 1402

QUESTION

DESTRUCTION OFRED LEADER

Mr WARD:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

In what manner didthe issue of a paper called the RedLeader, several thousand copies of which were recently destroyed by his department in Sydney, contravene the Post and Telegraph Act, as alleged by the Minister in replying to a question recently asked by the honorable member for East Sydney?

Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– For obvious reasons, it is not the practice to give information as to the precise provisions upon which any particular action is based, and I am not prepared to supplement the information already given that, in the opinion of the law authorities, the paper in question contravened the provisions of the law.

page 1403

QUESTION

PAYMENTS TO SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr LACEY:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What amounts have been paid to the State of South Australia by the Commonwealth Go vernment for each of the years 1925 to 1931, inclusive, and under what heading was each of such payments made?

Mr THEODORE:
Treasurer · DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The information desired is set out in the following statement : -

page 1403

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL TERRITORY

Lotteries Ordinance

Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that a warning was issued recently by the Attorney-General against contravention of the Lotteries Ordinance for the Territory for the Seat of Government in regard to publishing information regarding certain lotteries and the announcement of the result?
  2. How many radio licences have been issued for the Territory?
  3. In view of the provisions of the law referred to in paragraph I, will instructions bc issued to broadcasting stations to prohibit the dissemination of publicity in regard to lotteries to residents of the Territory?
  4. Is the transmission by the postal service of applications for tickets in lotteries conducted in Australia, but banned by the Commonwealth law in respect to the Territory, in compliance with the letter and spirit of the ordinance referred to; if not, what action will be taken to enforce the law?
Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. Up to 30th June last, 409 broadcast listeners’ licences were issued.
  3. The transmitting station, situated in the Territory does not disseminate publicity in regard to lotteries. It is not possible under the ordinance to control the activities of broadcasting stations situated outside the Territory.
  4. It is not the practice in answer to questions to express opinions on matters of law..

page 1403

QUESTION

CUSTOMS COLLECTIONS IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr LACEY:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

What amount of customs duties was collected in South Australia for each of the years 1925 to 1931, inclusive?

Mr FORDE:
ALP

– The amount of customs duties, exclusive of excise duties, collected in South Australia for the financial years 1924-25 to 1930-31 inclusive was as follows : -

page 1403

IMPERIAL WAR PENSIONS

Mr THEODORE:
ALP

– On the 29th October, the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) asked when it was proposed to make available the second instalment of exchange due to British war pensioners resident in Australia.

I am now in a position to furnish the following reply: -

The supplementary payments in respect of exchange on British war pensions for the six months ended 30th September last have been practically completed in all States except New South Wales. In the last-mentioned State, the work is well advanced, and payments will be commenced on Monday next.

page 1404

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL 1927-30

Bill returned from the Senate without requests.

page 1404

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1927-30

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 1404

GOVERNMENT SAVINGS BANK OF NEW SOUTH WALES

Formal. Motion for Adjournment

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin:

– I have received an intimation from the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) that he desires to move the adjournment of the House this afternoon for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, “ The desirability of immediate action by the Commonwealth Government to assist the depositors of the Savings Bank of New South Wales.”

Mr.Scullin. - The honorable member for East Sydney ought at least to have given me notice of his intention to do this.

Four honorable members having risen in their places,

Mr SPEAKER:

– As a standing order requires the support of five honorable members for a formal motion for adjournment to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, the question cannot be proposed.

page 1404

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Dairy Produce Export Control Act - Sixth Annual Report of the Dairy Produce Export Control Board, for theyear ended 30th June, 1931, together with a statement by the Minister regarding the operation of the act.

Quarantine Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1931, No. 130.

page 1404

FISH-MEAL PLANT

By-law Admission.

Mr.FORDE (Capricornia - Minister for Trade and Customs) [2.20]. - by leave - On the 20th October, on the motion for adjournment, the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson) questioned the accuracy of a statement made by me on the 30th September concerning a certain fish-meal plant for which admission under by-law was applied for and refused. The honorable member said -

The Minister, in reply, read a letter in which it is stated that a machine for manufacturing fish-meal had been ordered by the firm mentioned from a machinery manufacturing concern in Melbourne.

The honorable member then quoted from a letter dated the 1st October, in which it was stated that this statement ascribed to me was inaccurate inasmuch as an order had not been placed. In the statement referred to I was quoting information supplied to the department by the managing director of the concern which applied for by-law admission of the plant.I quoted that gentleman as saying -

Negotiations with Mr. W. J. Stamp ( i.e., the Melbourne manufacturer mentioned) have been so successful that ithas been definitely decided by his company to place an order with Stamp to proceed with the manufacture of a plant for erection at- in New South Wales.

The fact that, for financial or other reasons, the order has not yet been placed does not affect the accuracy of my statement. The honorable member has placed too trusting a confidence in his correspondent. Before taking upon himself to say that my reply was “ to some extent misleading,” he might at least have taken the trouble to verify what I had said. The facts of the case may be simply recited: A concern was started for the manufacture from fish of fish-meal for stock food. Having received advice of a British plant suitable for the purpose, the concern applied for relief from the customs duty payable on it. The concern was brought into contact with a Melbourne engineering firm which claimed to be able to supply a suitable plant. After a number of interviews with the engineering firm - W. J. Stamp - the managing director of the fish meal concern informed the department that he was satisfied that the Melbourne firm could supply a suitable plant and that it had been definitely decided to place an order with that firm. Acting on the long and well-established conditions in respect of which exemption from duty is granted under the by-law items of the tariff, I could not, in the circumstances, do otherwise than refuse the application. It depends on the evidence whether or not a suitable plant can be supplied by a local manufacturer. The evidence placed before me up to the present indicates that a suitable locally-made plant can be supplied. If later evidence invalidates that previously furnished, the matter will be re-considered. It has been my experience that the honorable member for Gippsland is usually very fair; and I feel sure that he would not knowingly misrepresent me.

page 1405

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS BILL

In committee (Consideration of Senate’s amendments) :

Clause 3 -

Section two of the Principal Act is repealed and the following sections inserted in its stead: - “2. - (1.) As soon as conveniently practicable after the commencement of this section, and thereafter at the commencement of the first session of every Parliament, a joint committee of seven members of the Parliament, to be called the Joint Committee of Public Accounts (in this Act referred to as “‘the Committee’), shall be appointed according to the practice of the Parliament with reference to the appointment of members to serve on Joint Select Committees of both Houses of the Parliament. “ (2.) Two members of the Committee shall be members of, and appointed by, the Senate, and five members of the Committee shall be members of, and appointed by, the House of Representatives. “ 2aa. Any four members of the Committee shall form a quorum competent to exercise all powers and authorities and to incur all obligations conferred or imposed by this Act upon the Committee”.

Senate’s amendments -

Proposed new section 2, sub-section 1, omit “ seven “ and insert “ five “.

Proposed new section 2, sub-section 2,’ omit “five” and insert “three”.

Proposed new section 2aa, omit “ four “ and insert “ three “.

After clause 4 insert the following new clause: - 4a. Section ten of the Principal Act is amended by omitting the word “ Two “ (wherever occurring) and inserting in its stead the word “One”.

Mr SCULLIN:
Prime Minister · Yarra · ALP

.- I move-

That the amendments be disagreed to.

These amendments have reference to the membership of the committee. The Government is not prepared to accept them. “We disagree with them on the ground that the proposed reduction in membership would disturb the relative representation of the two Blouses. I do not propose to speak at length, because we have fully discussed this subject. One amendment provides that there shall be three members selected from the House of Representatives and two members from the Senate. The bill, as it was sent to another place, provided for five members from this House and two from the Senate.

Mr Thompson:

– That is five members too many.

Mr SCULLIN:

– This subject was thrashed out in this “ chamber. If we accept the amendments, there will be on the committee practically as many senators as members of this chamber. We have to try to distribute equitably between the various parties’ representation on the committee. There would not be much saving in expenditure effected in reducing the membership from seven to five. If the membership consisted of five, and three members were absent through illness, a quorum of the committee, would be lacking, and it might be compelled to neglect matters of urgent importance. From our experience of these committees, we believe that a membership of seven is reasonable.

Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL:
Warringah

– I am in favour of the Senate’s amendments. As I have said previously, I regard these committees as entirely unnecessary, particularly in this time of depression when there is every need for economy. If the membership of the Public Accounts Committee were reduced from seven to five, and the expenditure reduced from £2,000 to £1,000 a year, that would be a distinct economy. The amendments should, therefore, commend themselves to honorable members. There is no work for the Public Works Committee, and its operations should be suspended temporarily, and if the Public Accounts Committee is not prepared to give its services voluntarily in this time of depression, its services also should be suspended. It has departed entirely from the terms of the arrangement under which it was appointed. It was never intended that it would be peripatetic. It was appointed to consider the budget proposals, and to make recommendations with regard to them. It has taken to itself other duties simply for the purpose of providing “perks” for parliamentarians. The committee is a gross extravagance, and I am opposed to its continuance.

Mr COLEMAN:
Reid

.- This subject was exhaustively discussed a week or two ago. If the cost of the discussion an both Houses were analysed, it would ie found to exceed the cost of the activities of this committee for about three years. Unfortunately, some honorable members seem to suffer from political myopia, and it would do them good to indulge in a little introspection. Honorable members discussed this subject fully, and by a vote of about three to one decided to retain both the Public Works Committee and the Public Accounts Committee. The committees are under the specific control of this Parliament, and if anything goes wrong, their appointment can come up for review. The Public Accounts Committee is not peripatetic, as the honorable member for Warringah has suggested. We must excuse the immaturity of the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Parkhill), who has not long been a member of this House, and has not been appointed to either of its standing committees.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– I have never been a seeker after parliamentary “ perks “.

Mr COLEMAN:

– The honorable member has not given a great deal of consideration to’ the various activities of Parliament. If the committee has gome outside the limits of its primary statutory authority; it is because the Government has referred to it matters which in the past were referred to extra-parliamentary authorities. Rarely has the committee exceeded its statutory allowance. In any case, its expenditure is automatically limited by the number,’and the nature, of the inquiries entrusted to it. There is no reason why there should be any curtailment of the statutory appropriation; but that is not the matter now under consideration. That the committees are too cumbersome “is not the fault of the present Government, for in 1921, during the Hughes administration, the membership of the Public Accounts Committee was increased from nine to ten, in order to give each party proper representation on it. The right of the several political parties to be represented on these committees has been discussed on previous occasions. The issue now is whether the committee shall have seven, or five, members. This chamber agreed to reduce the number to seven; but the Senate has asked that it be further reduced to five. If the committee were composed of the members of one chamber only, as is the case in the House of Commons, five members would be adequate.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– There i.e no analogy between the Senate and the House of Lords.

Mr COLEMAN:

– There is a similarity between the recognized constitutional powers of the respective Houses. All sections in this chamber could be represented on a committee of five members; but if the Senate is also to be represented on the committee, it must be so constituted as not only to give the several parties representation, but also to preserve the balance between the two Houses. Of the ten members of the Public Accounts Committee, seven were representative of this House, and three of the other branch of the legislature. Recognizing that the committee was too large, the Government proposed that it should consist of five members of the popular chamber, and two from the Senate, thus preserving as nearly as possible the ratio of representation that is normally given to both Houses. The Senate would have the House of Representatives represented by only three members, while not altering its own representation. If the other chamber wants to set an example of patriotism, it should reduce to one its own representation on the committee. In this instance it has interfered, not only with the rights of this branch of the legislature, but also with the basis of representation.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– And the fees, of members.

Mr COLEMAN:

– Some honorable members who have not been here long make innuendoes. Having a warped mentality themselves, they think that other honorable members cannot rise above fees and rewards. If we are to examine r,bv extravagance of Parliament, let us start with Parliament itself, and pay members attendance fees only. Were we to establish the principle of payment by results, many honorable members would not earn the basic wage. I have indicated one direction in which greater economies could be made than by cutting out comparatively small items of expenditure such as those now under review.

Parliament has never displayed a particularly keen interest in the budgetpapers and Estimates which are presented year after year. Last week we had an example of a lack of vigilance on the part of Parliament, and also on the part of Treasury officials and officers of the Auditor-General’s Department, when Supplementary Estimates, covering a period of three years, were passed through both Houses without any discussion. Yet t he Constitution requires that Supplementary Estimates shall bo brought before Parliament annually. Honorable members will admit that 98 per cent. of the discussion which takes place on the Estimates and budget is composed of generalities. Only one or two honorable members subject the financial proposals to a more critical examination.

Mr Thompson:

– Has the Public Accounts Committee ever examined them critically?

Mr COLEMAN:

– It has not done so, because its time has been fully taken up with the inquiries which it has undertaken at the request of the Government. A few months ago, when examining the act governing the Public Accounts Committee, I realized that it was the duty of the committee to examine the budget and Estimates. An inquiry along those lines is now nearing completion, and I feel certain that when the committee’s report is presented, it will convince the people of Australia - even if it does not satisfy one or two honorable members who are always hypercritical in these matters - that there is need for a closer and more continuous examination of the finances of the country. I do not accept any responsibility for the failure of the Public Accounts Committee to examine the budgets and Estimates in the past. Undoubtedly, Sir John Forrest, as Treasurerin the Cook Administration, had in mind the creation of a standing committee modelled on the British Public Accounts Committee Act, to which the

Treasurer’s financial statements and the Auditor-General’s reports should be referred. In Britain the Auditor-General and the head of the Treasury attend the, meetings of the committee, and a report is subsequently presented to Parliament. How different the position there from that in Australia where, year after year, the Auditor-General’s report is tabled, and no one demands the right to discuss it.

Mr Thompson:

– The Government does not provide an opportunity for its discussion.

Mr COLEMAN:

– Apparently, it is nobody’s business to see that the recommendations of the Auditor-General are carried into effect. Should there be a dispute between the Auditor-General and the Treasury officials, the matter ends there, no honorable member feeling that it is his duty to interest himself in it. These things do. not happen in Great Britain, because there the Auditor- ‘ General’s report is examined by the Committee of Public Accounts, which determines whether the Treasury officials are right, or the criticism of the AuditorGeneral is justified. The result is that, in Great Britain, economies have been effected and efficiency has increased.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. McGrath).Order ! I ask the honorable member to confine his remarks to the subject before the Chair.

Mr COLEMAN:

– In Great Britain the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee is usually an ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, or an ex-chairman of the Board of Trade, so that it will be seen that the examinations made by the committee are conducted by specialists in government finance. This bill destroys the proportionate representation on’ the committee of the two Houses, and of the several parties in them; yet if the committee is to be representative of Parliament, it must be representative of the several sections of that Parliament. The position could be met by limiting membership on the committees to members of this chamber. By its amendment, the Senate seeks to interfere with the rights and functions of this chamber.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– And the “ perks “ of members.

Mr COLEMAN:

– It is not a question of the fees which are paid for travelling. Surely, members of committees are not expected to travel at their own expense when performing duties which are supplementary to their ordinary parliamentary duties? Rather than, destroy the committee altogether, I would make membership honorary. I favour an extension of the committee system. If Parliament could have separate committees to deal with such subjects as taxation, foreign affairs, and finance, better work would be done.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr THOMPSON:
New England

– I strongly support the amendments of the Senate, and hope that the Government will accept them. Listening with interest to the speech of the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Coleman), I learned a good deal about the working of the Public Accounts Committee, not all of which was to its credit. According to the statement of the honorable member for Reid, the committee was appointed originally to exercise a general supervision over the budgetary position of governments. I submit that it has entirely failed to discharge that function, because it was an impossible task for a committee of that calibre. It seems to me that the committee has come to be regarded, not as a necessary part of the machinery of government, to obtain a general and impartial surveillance of the finances by members of all parties, but more or less as an appurtenance of the party machine, and, to that extent, 1 think, it is no longer necessary. If it is to be retained, it should be given a, new constitution, and the matter of party representation should bc considered from an altogether new angle. The practice has been to appoint to the committee a certain number of Government supporters, and members of the Opposition. The Country party comes last.

Mr Archdale Parkhill:

– Appointment to this committee is a sort of political consolation prize.

Mr THOMPSON:

– Yes; and great heart-burnings are often caused in the party rooms. I am glad to say that, once the members of the committee are appointed, party considerations are swept aside. The honorable member for Reid said that the Senate had exceeded its rights in its amendment for the reduction of the membership of the committee to five - three from this chamber and two from another place. But there is nothing in the constitution of the Public Accounts Committee requiring that the representation of the Senate should be limited; and 1 contend that the other chamber has acted entirely within its rights in making iti amendment. There is practically no work for the committee to do at the present time, and no advantage is to be gained by maintaining it. Therefore, the other branch of the legislature is perfectly justified in trying to limit the expenditure on the committee to the lowest possible amount.

So far as I am aware, the activities of the committee have never proved very useful to the Government. It has admittedly failed to carry out the work, for which it was established, and that is probably because the job was too big for it. Having watched its work for the last nine years, I see no justification for maintaining it. A committee of three could, perhaps, produce just as valuable results a3 those obtained by the present committee. Although extraordinary claims have been made, in general terms, about the needless expenditure which the committee has prevented, we have no proof of the amount actually saved. We are told that the work of the committee has resulted in a saving of millions annually, but I question that statement. I do not know that it has saved thousands, or even hundreds of pounds.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must confine his remarks to the amendment.

Mr THOMPSON:

– Past experience shows that a committee with a large personnel does not produce good results. I consider that the importance of this body has been much over-rated. As the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Parkhill) remarked, appointments to the committee have been made largely for the purpose of providing consolation prizes for members of different parties. The Government has a good opportunity in the amendment sent down from another place to reduce the membership of the committee to the lowest number acceptable to the Parliament. ..Acceptance of the Senate’s amendments will create a good impression among the general public, and show that the Government is genuinely anxious to economize. It has always claimed that it desires to abolish unnecessary boards and commissions. A smaller membership would enable the committee’s utility to be tested.I was associated with a committee of five which did very good work.

Mr Fenton:

– Self-praise isno recommendation !

Mr THOMPSON:

– The record of the work of that committee stands. Its members received no remuneration for their services. They did not come into this building, hang their hats up, and, after a meeting lasting five minutes, draw fees.

Mr Gardner:

– I ask that that inaccurate remark be withdrawn. I regard it as a reflection on the members of the committee. On no occasion have members of the Public Accounts Committee received fees for a five-minutes’ sitting.

Mr THOMPSON:

– I refuse to withdraw the remark, because I can prove that it is true.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I ask the honorable member to accept the assurance of the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Gardner).

Mr THOMPSON:

– So far as the honorable member for Robertson is concerned, I withdraw the remark, because I accept his assurance regarding himself, but, in the past, fees for committee work have been earned far too easily. Members of the Select Committee on the Tobacco Industry did their work for nothing, so there can be little comparison between that committee and the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr Gardner:

– Did not the members of the Select Committee receive payment to cover their travelling expenses?

Mr THOMPSON:

– Yes, but we were out of pocket at the end of our investigation.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– When the bill was previously under discussion, an intimation was made, I think, that the committee was then inquiring into a certain matter, and there was a probability of it completing the inquiry before an alteration was made in the present personnel. In my opinion, valuable service would be ren dered to this Parliament if the committee were permitted to present that report.I am in favour of a reduction of the membership of the committee to five, but I certainly disagree with the amendment providing for three members from this chamber and two from another place. If the membership is’ to be reduced to five, the other chamber is entitled to only one member. This chamber should have a preponderance of representation on financecommittees.Anopportunitymay be taken on another occasion to discuss the subject of the fees paid to members of this committee; but I venture to say that when the full history of the Public Works and Public Accounts Committees is made known, it will be fully established that they have rendered exceptionally useful service. Those who are most critical concerning their work know least about it.

Progress reported.

page 1409

WHEAT BOUNTY BILL (No. 2)

Bill returned from the Senate with an amendment.

In committee (Consideration of Senate’s amendment) :

Clause 4 - (2.) For the purposes of this act wheat shall be deemed to have been delivered for sale if it is delivered by a grower to a flour miller, wheat merchant or co-operative organization for storage pending sale.

Senate’s amendment. - After “ merchant,” sub-clause 2, insert “government instrumentality “.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
Minister for Markets · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I move-

That the amendment he agreed to.

The object of the amendment is to provide that wheat shall be deemed to have been delivered for sale if it has been delivered to a government instrumentality, which would include silos such as are established in New South Wales.

Motion agreed to.

Resolution reported ; report adopted.

page 1409

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Mr SCULLIN:
Prime Minister · Yarra · ALP

– I move -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until a date and hour to be fixed by Mr. Speaker, which time of meeting shall be notified by Mr. Speaker to each member by telegram or letter.

For the information of honorable members I may say that the House of Representatives will, I think, resume its sittings on the 25th November.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 1410

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motion (by Mr. Scullin) - by leave - agreed to -

That leave of absence be given to every member of the House of . Representatives from the determination of this sitting of the House to the date of its next sitting.

page 1410

ADJOURNMENT

Communist Party and New Guard - Government Savings Bank of NewSouth Wales.

Motion (by Mr. Scullin) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr BRENNAN:
AttorneyGeneral · Batman · ALP

– Questions have been directed to me from time to time from different parts of the House on the subject of unlawful associations. I have been asked to take certain action in respect of persons alleged to be acting unlawfully, and underlying the questions has been a suggestion that the Government possesses certain latent powers which it is unwilling to exercise, but which should be exercised in the preservation of order and the suppression of disorder. Special reference has been made to two bodies, the Communist party and the New Guard.

It seems, desirable, therefore, to set out the legal position for the information of honorable members. The Crimes Act 1914-28 provides as follows - omitting those parts which are not immediately relevant to the subject under consideration : - “s.30a. - (1.) The following are hereby declared to be unlawful associations: -

  1. any body of persons, incorporated or unincorporated, which by its constitution or propaganda or otherwise advocates or encourages -

    1. . . .
    2. the overthrow by force or violence of the established Government of the Commonwealth or of a State or of any other civilized country or of organized government ;
    3. . . .
  2. . . . (2.) Any branch or committee of an unlawful association and any institution or school conducted under the authority or apparent authority of an unlawful association shall, for the purposes of this act, be deemed to be an unlawful association.”

It will be seen that these provisions describe what an unlawful association is in the eye of the law. But there is nowhere any provision of law which enables the Government by proclamation or otherwise to denounce an unlawful association as such. An unlawful association has no kind of corporate existence recognized by law by virtue of which it could be made a party to legal proceedings, apart from proceedings against an individual. Under the Unlawful Associations Act 1916-19 - a wartime measure aimed at the I.W.W. - the Governor-General had power to declare any association which advocatedor encouraged the taking or endangering of human life to be an unlawful association. This act expired six months after the end of the war. The following provisions of the Crimes Act, however, have persona) application, and may be applied to various kinds of offenders and offences in one way or another related to unlawful associations : - “ 30b. Any member over eighteen years of age and any person who -occupied or acts in any office, or position in or of an unlawful association, or who acts as its representative or as a teacher in any such school is liable to imprisonment for one year.

  1. 30c. Any person who by speech, or writing, advocates or encourages the overthrow by force or violence of the established government of the Commonwealth or of a State, or of any other civilized country of organized government, is guilty of anoffence, and if not born in Australia liable to two years imprisonment and to deportation.
  2. 30d. Persons contributing or soliciting contributions to an unlawful association are liable to six months imprisonment.

For the purposes of this section, the printer of any paper, &c., containing any solicitation of subscriptions or contributions of money or goods for an unlawful association shall be deemed to solicit contributions. 30e. No book. &c., issued by or on behalf or in the interests of an unlawful association shall be transmitted through the post or registered as a newspaper. 30f. Persons printing, selling or exposing for sale any such book are liable to six months’ imprisonment. 30g. Goods and chattels of an unlawful association and books, &c., issued by or on behalf of or in the interests of an unlawful association shall be forfeited to the King.”

These provisions were inserted in the Crimes Act in 1926, but no prosecutions have been launched under these powers.

There is a Communist party in Australia. It’s name is The Communist Party of Australia, and it declares itself to be the Australian section of the Communist International. Article IV of the Constitution declares its objective to be as follows: -

Its purpose is the education and organization of the workers for the overthrow of the capitalist state; establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat; abolition of the capitalist system, and the development of the Communist society.

The meaning of the words “ the dictatorship of the proletariat”isexpoundedin the A.B.C. of Communism, an authoritative text book, described as a popular exposition of the programme of the Communist party of Russia, by N. Bucharin, one of the acknowledged leaders of the Soviet, and E. Preobraschensky, at pages 90 and 91 in these terms -

page 1411

QUESTION

THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT

In order to bring into being the communist system of society the proletariat must have all power in their hands. They cannot destroy the old order so long as they do not possess this power. In order to accomplish their task they must become the ruling class in the State. It goes without saying that the bourgeoisie will not surrender their position without a fight. For them communism means the loss of privilege and of place, the loss of “ freedom” to coin money from the blood and sweat of the workers, the loss of rent, interest, and profit. The communist revolution, therefore, will meet with the fiercest opposition from the exploiters. The task of the dominant working class, therefore, consists in the merciless suppression of this opposition. As the resistance of the exploiters will inevitably be strong, therefore, the rule of the proletariat will have to be a dictatorship. In a “dictatorship “ there is a strong form of government, and men must agree to a high degree of resoluteness in the work of suppressing an enemy. It is evident that in such a situation there can be no talk of “ freedom “ for everybody. The dictatorship of the proletariat is incompatible with the freedom of the bourgeoisie. The dictatorship is, in fact, necessary to deprive the bourgeoisie of their freedom, to chain them hand and foot in order to make it absolutely impossible for them to light the revolutionary proletariat. The more stubborn the resistance of the bourgeoisie, is the more desperately they muster their strength, the more dangerous they become; the harsher and more bitter must be the proletarian dictatorship, which, in an extreme case, dare not cease till the terror is overcome. Only after the complete overthrow of the exploiters and the crushing of their resistance; when it is no longer possible for them to injure the working class; only then will the dictatorship of the proletariat become milder. The bourgeoisie will gradually be merged in the proletariat, the workers’ state will gradually die away, and society will become a communist society in which there will be no class divisions.

One of the statutes of the third international, of which the Communist party is a part, is to be found at page 30 of the. membership book of the Communist party of Australia, and is as follows : -

The Communist parties must be prepared to carry on their work illegally. The E.C.C.I. (i.e. Executive Committee Communist International) must assist the parties in the preparation for illegal work, and see to it that the work is carried out.

At page 16 it is pointed out that -

The Communist International considers the dictatorship of the proletariat as theonly means for the liberation of humanity from the horrors of capitalism.

The Communist International considers the Soviet form of government as the historically evolved form of this dictatorship of the proletariat.

The Communist International fully and unreservedly upholds the case of the great Proletariat Revolution in Russia.

It will be seen, therefore, that on an appropriate set of facts arising, it would be competent to prove membership in an association, that such association was an unlawful one, and that certain persons stood in relation to it in one of the ways mentioned above. The question whether a prosecution would in any particular instance be feasible or desirable would be one of fact and policy to be considered as circumstances arise.

The New Guard professes to be organized on military lines. It is said to be administered by a head-quarters of exservice “men, comprising all the necessary branches and sub-divisions of a staff organized and ready to mobilize. Greater Sydney is divided into four zones, and each unit is officered and staffed by men who have seen service. Members of the New Guard are classified in three groups as follows: -

A Class, are those who volunteer as shock troops.

B Class, are chiefly technicians.

C Class are householders detailed for the defence of their own residential suburbs.

One person holds himself out as an authoritative exponent of its objects which, divested of certain counsels of perfection and abstract ideals, may be set out as follows: - It is the organization of a force on military lines pledged to support, if called upon, the duly constituted authorities of law and order; to take the initiative in maintaining law and order; to safeguard the lives and property of the people, and to maintain essential service, should the police be overwhelmed. This exponent states that it is organized on sound military lines; that its functions are purely protective, and that it will not act unless called upon to do so by constituted authority, or until it is apparent that the forces of disorder are in complete control. In addition, it interests itself in a number of political and ethical questions.

It is claimed for the New Guard that in certain contingencies it would act without request from the police, and that it would be guided in the exercise of force by a council of action composed of various so-called divisional commanders. Meaures of force would not be entered upon without the authority of a substantial majority of the members of this body.

Certain provisions of law relate to these matters. By the Unlawful Drilling Act 1819-60 Geo. III. and 1 Geo. IV. - it is provided that meetings and assemblies of persons for the purpose of training or drilling themselves, or of being trained or drilled to the use of arms or for the purpose of practising military exercises, movements or evolutions, without any lawful authority from His Majesty, are unlawful, and that a person attending such meeting for the purpose of training or drilling other persons to the use of arms or the practice of military exercises, movements or evolutions, or who commits acts of a like character set out in the statute, are liable to heavy punishment. Section 118 of the Defence Act provides that any person who induces or attempts to induce any other person to enlist or engage to serve in any military force, the raising of which has not been authorized by the Governor-General, is liable to six months imprisonment. Unlawful drilling is dealt with under section 27 of the Crimes Act.

The question of how far, if at all, a member of the New Guard has, up to the present, offended against the law is a matter of evidence in each case. Propaganda, self-advertisement and verbal filibustering indicating an intention to break the law are not necessarily breaches of the law. The facts necessary to be proven are indicated by the provisions of law quoted and the sections referred to. As a citizen, each member of this organization would, in proper circumstances, be justified in coming to the assistance of the police, but this right and, indeed, duty, would be shared equally withevery other citizen, and would not imply licence to exercise a greater measure offorce than that which would be legallypermissible in the case of persons generally. Each member wouldcome under the provisions of the law relating to the unauthorized carrying of fire arms. This organization does not appear to fulfil the conditions necessary to constitute an unlawful association.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

.- Last Friday, during the absence from the House of members of the group to which I belong, on account of urgent business, the Prime Minister stated that they were absent at a time when a matter affecting depositors in the old branch of the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales was being referred to. It is not my mission to inquire into the movements of honorable members, but as the absence of my associates has been called in question by the Prime Minister, I ask the right honorable member to inform honorable members whether - at a crucial hour like this, when their attendance is required in the House - the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) and the Minister for Home Affairs (Mr. Blakeley) have not gone trout fishing, using a government car, driven by a government chauffeur, at the expense of the people of Australia.

To-day, when I endeavoured unsuccessfully to obtain the necessary support to move the adjournment of the House regarding the granting of assistance to depositors in the old branch of the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales, the Prime Minister said that I should not rush the matter.

Mr Scullin:

– I stated that the honorable member might have given notice of his intention to the Government, a procedure that was demanded by ordinary courtesy. Perhaps the inexperience of the honorable member in parliamentary procedure is his excuse.

Mr WARD:

– Last week the matter was raised in this House, and many questions were asked upon it. The Prime Minister also made a statement on the subject. Therefore, it cannot, by any stretch of imagination, be suggested that I was rushing the matter whenI sought to move the adjournment of the House. The reason that I gave for my action was that I realized that the House was going into recess, and that the matter was of urgent public importance that warranted attention.

Mr Scullin:

– That did not warrant the honorable member in trying to spring it on the House, except by notice to Mr. Speaker, who was not entitled to divulge the information.

Mr WARD:

Sir Robert Gibson stated publicly that the Commonwealth Bank must be prepared to issue currency to its banker customers when called upon to do so, and to render any assistance that is justified in the interests of the national welfare. The Prime Minister supported that attitude. The Government Savings Bank of New South Wales is a customer of the Commonwealth Bank, and the latter institution should have rendered assistance to it when called upon to do so. I condemn the Government because it has condoned the action of the Bank Board in refusing to give assistance that was within its power to the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales, assistance that it gave to other financial institutions when they were similarly placed.

Mr Scullin:

– The Commonwealth Bank gave the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales fivetimes as much assistance as it gave to any other State savings bank.

Mr WARD:

– The Prime Minister Argued that the reason why the Commonwealth Bank did not assist the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales was because Mr. Lang did not meet his obligations to the former institution ; secondly, that the request of the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales to draw £10,000,000 in notes was preposterous. It might be inferred from the first objection that the State Labour Premier of New South Wales has been re sponsible for the spending of the enormous sums of money that have been borrowed from the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales. As a matter of fact, the debt owing to that institution by the Government of Now South Wales has not been increased onepenny since the advent of the Lang Government.

I might well ask whether the fact that the Government of New South Wales has failed to pay interest upon money due to that bank affords a sound argument why the Commonwealth Bank should not render assistance to the New South Wales institution.

Mr Scullin:

– It was not used asan argument for that purpose; but merely to show why the people became panicky.

Mr WARD:

– Have not many other banking institutions received assistance from the Commonwealth Bank which to-day cannot obtain interest on their loans as they fall due? The very fact that the Government Savings Bank of Now South Wales is unable to pay its interest commitments is a strong argument why it should receive assistance.

Mr.Scullin. - And it did.

Mr WARD:

-Ishalldealwiththe extent of that assistance very shortly. In 1924 the Commonwealth Bunk Board rendered help to the associated banks, and was prepared to give them the right to draw. There is a vast difference between the right to draw and the actual withdrawal of money. Yesterday the Prime Minister indicated that, if the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales were granted the right to withdraw £10,000,000 from the Commonwealth Bank, that money would be required to meet a rush that the right honorable gentleman anticipates, the moment that the bank re-opened the door of the “ old business “ division.

Mr Thompson:

– His anticipations are sound.

Mr WARD:

– We shall see. In 1924, the Commonwealth Bank granted the associated banks the right to draw £15,000,000. They were supposed to pay 4 per cent. interest on any notes that wore withdrawn, and on that right they established credit to the extent of £60,000,000. What happened? Not one note was withdrawn from the Commonwealth Bank, and the transaction was carried through as though that £18,000,000 in notes were in the vaults of the associated banks. In the case of the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales, not one note would be required. That institution simply wants to be treated as were the associated banks d few years ago. Even if the notes were withdrawn, they would find their way back to the bank within a week or two. That is the usual practice. Assistance was granted to the associated banks, because those institutions practically declared a financial lockout.

Attention called to the state of the House. There being no quorum,

House adjourned at 3.26 p.m., until a date and hour to be fixed by Mr. Speaker.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 30 October 1931, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1931/19311030_reps_12_132/>.