House of Representatives
22 February 1929

11th Parliament · 1st Session

  1. House of Representatives
  2. 11th Parliament
  3. 1929

Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Littleton Groom) took the chair at 11.0 a.m., and read prayers.

page 529

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN NAVY

Training of Personnel

Mr MARKS:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– H.M.A.S. Canberra having recently arrived in Australian waters, I ask the right honorable gentleman whether, in view of his repeated promises in answer to questions and speeches by me that the Government would consider the introduction of a system for training young men for naval service, he will see that prompt attention is paid to this urgent need?

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

– The Government will take the matter into consideration when framing its financial proposals for the next year.

page 529

QUESTION

IMPORTATION OF COAL

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

– Will the Prime

Minister have inquiries made to ascertain whether one or both of the cargoes of coal recently imported by the South Australian Government caught fire before reaching Port Adelaide ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I shall have inquiries made, and let the honorable member know the result.

page 530

INDUSTRIAL UNREST

Protection of Workers

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Will the Attorney-

General assure the House that every reasonable provision is being made to safeguard those workers who are observing Federal laws and endeavouring to carry on industry in conformity with the awards of the Arbitration Court?

Mr LATHAM:
Attorney-General · KOOYONG, VICTORIA · NAT

– The preservation of the peace is the responsibility of the State Government and it is quite impossible for the Commonwealth Government, with the resources at its disposal, and restricted to Federal laws, to accept responsibility for the preservation of order throughout Australia. Nevertheless, the Commonwealth Government will take action to enforce the Federal law in all cases where evidence of breaches of the law, provable in court, is available. If those concerned will submit to the Crown Solicitor evidence by witnesses who can be called, of breaches of Commonwealth laws, action will be taken.

page 530

QUESTION

LORD HOWE ISLAND

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Prime Minister if it is true that the Government is negotiating a new contract forthe carriage of mails to the Mandated Territories and the Pacific Islands on the basis of an increased subsidy? Will the right honorable gentleman require, as a condition of the contract, that the steamship Makambo, which for several years has been a source of annoyance and discomfort to the residents of the islands and tourists who desire to visit that remarkable sanatorium and gem of the Pacific, Lord Howe Island, shall be withdrawn from the service?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I stated yesterday in reply to a question by the honorable member that I hoped to be able to make an early announcement of a new contract for the mail service to the Pacific Islands, and I do not think it desirable to make piecemeal statements in the meantime.

page 530

QUESTION

BRITISH ECONOMIC MISSION

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– About a fortnight ago the Prime Minister informed me that he expected that the complete accounts of the expenditure in connexion with the visit of the British Economic Mission to Australia would be available within a few days. Is he yet able to furnish the information to the House?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I did not say that I hoped to have the information within a few days; I said I would obtain it, and make it available as soon as possible. Some time will be required to adjust accounts between the Commonwealth Government and the various State Governments. As soon as the accounts are complete I shall make the information public.

page 530

QUESTION

COAL-MINING INDUSTRY

Mr WEST:

– The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) made a speech yesterday containing much information not generally known to the public. Will the Prime Minister cause that speech tobe printed in pamphlet form and distributed to the Universities, Arbitration Court judges, heads of churches, commissioners of police, trades halls, employers’ federations, and women’s national leagues for distribution to their members ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– From time to time honorable members make speeches in this House which, in their own opinion, and sometimes in the opinion of others, are valuable contributions towards the sum of human knowledge on particular subjects, but to select one particular speech for reprinting and distribution would be to make an invidious distinction which is not desirable.

page 530

QUESTION

PROSECUTION OF JACOB JOHNSON

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– When will the AttorneyGeneral lay on the table of the House the papers relating to the prosecution and imprisonment of Jacob Johnson ?

Mr LATHAM:
NAT

– This morning.

page 531

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Roads - Swimming Baths - Electrical Services - War Memorial - Rating - Concrete Mixing Plant - Forestry School

Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. What was the cost of construction of the culvert and covering road, near the Power House, known as Wentworth-avenue, Canberra ?
  2. What was the cost of construction of the culvert and covering road connecting New South Wales-crescent and Giles-crescent? 3. (a) What was the cost of construction of the experimental concrete penetration road in Giles-street, Kingston; (b) are experts of opinion that this road is, in view of its corrugation, a success?
  3. Is it a fact that the culverts referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 were incapable, through faulty construction, of handling storm waters, and were severely damaged as a result of the fall of rain (amounting to 122 points) on Saturday, the 16th instant?
Mr ABBOTT:
Minister of Home Affairs · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow - 1. (a) The cost of the culvert in Wentworthavenue was £3,214; (b) the cost of connecting embankments and roadways on Brisbane and Wentworth avenues was £8,670. 2. (a) The cost of the culvert was £662; (b) the cost of construction of the embankments and roadways to New South Wales crescent at the southern end of Telopea Park was £788. 3. (a) £1,120; (b) I am advised that the road is not corrugated. It is an experimental one and is so far entirely successful. It is. impossible to express any final opinion on the subject until the roadhas been in use for some time, particularly over a complete range of temperatures.

  1. I am advised thatone of the criteria used for the design of these culverts was a rate of rainfall three inches per hour, which was arrived at after consideration of the practice in Melbourne, Sydney and elsewhere. The recent fall evidently exceeded this figure in the particular locality involved. The important factor is the rate of. fall and not the total fall over the 24 hours. The small amount of damage which actually occurred over the whole of the city (which will cost not more than £400 to restore) would probably not have occurred but for the fact that the embankments involved were newly constructed and not consolidated and clothed. As the Canberra storm water drainage system is gradually developed some of the stormwater at presentflowing into existing channels will be diverted elsewhere and thus obviate present difficulties.
Mr ANSTEY:
BOURKE, VICTORIA

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that the Federal Capital Commission have requested residents of the Territory not to bathe in the Molonglo River owing to the danger of infection?
  2. Is it a fact that the Chief Commissioner made a public statement two years ago promising that public baths wouldbe immediately erected in Canberra?
  3. Will the Minister give an assurance that up-to-date baths will be ready at the beginning of next summer?
Mr ABBOTT:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. On the 5th December, 1928, the Federal Capital Commission announced that the standard of purity of the waters of the Molonglo River was then definitely below what was recognized as safe for swimming purposes.
  2. and 3. No statement was made by the Chief Commissioner two years ago promising that public baths would be immediately erected in Canberra. Two years ago the matter was considered by the Commission, which decided that funds could not be made available for the purpose. The position was reviewed last year and provision for the work was made in draft estimates. Funds would not permit, however, of the work being proceeded with. The position will be reviewed in connexion with the estimates for next year.
Mr ANSTEY:

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice-

  1. Is it a fact that three uninsulated “ live “ electric wires are connected across yards to houses in Canberra?
  2. Is it a fact that a number of these wires have broken at different times, and that children playing in the yards have just escaped electrocution ?
  3. What is the reason for running these wires across back yards when it is not necessary in other cities?
  4. Have there been any cases of electrocution owing to broken wires lying in yards?
  5. Would the Federal Capital Commission be held responsible in such a case?
  6. Will the Minister look into this matter to see if anything can be done to ensure the safety of the residents ofthe Territory ?
Mr ABBOTT:

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. It is a fact that the electrical services to cottages, i.e., electric light and power, are connected and enter from the rear of the cottages. The services are arranged in accordance with standard practice and the fire underwriters’ rules and the rules of the Institution of- Engineers of Australia, which provide for insulation of the first six feet adjacent to the house and non-insulation thereafter.
  2. The only known cases of wires having been broken are those caused by persons erecting aerials for wireless apparatus, the aerials breaking and bringing down the electric service lines. No eases are known of children being injured or of escaping injury by such service, lines breaking.
  3. This system was adopted by the Government in 1021 after careful inquiry and expert advice. It is not a matter of necessity. When electric power and light lines were first installed in the older cities it was found that the only available place to erect the lines was in the front or main streets, and thus the precedent was established. A visit to any of the cities or towns, and especially the suburbs, will disclose bow objectionable to the general appearance is a mass of poles and wires. The authorities who decided on the regulation for Canberra had in view the “ Garden City “ ideal, and, realizing the objectionable nature of a mass of wires and poles in the front of houses and public buildings, evolved the source of entry from the rear, thus placing them as far out of sight as possible. Canberra is the only city in Australia where the layout has been considered as a whole, thus making reform on these lines possible.
  4. No.

  5. The question of the Commission’s responsibility would be considered when such a ease actually occurred.

    1. There does not appear to be any danger to residents of the Territory from the adoption of the present system. I shall, however, look into the matter.
Mr ANSTEY:

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Has any date yet been fixed for the laying of the foundation stone of the War Memorial building, Canberra?
  2. When is it proposed to commence actual building operations ?
  3. When is it anticipated that the building will be completed in order to permit the housing of exhibits in Canberra?
  4. Are building operations to be carried out by the Federal Capital Commission or by contract?
  5. Arc the successful architects who collaborated in connexion with the design of the War Memorial building to be the architects in charge of the construction of the building?
  6. Is it proposed to invite tenders for the supply of all materials (other than those in stock at the Commission’s store) required for building purposes?
  7. Have any tenders yet been invited or accepted; if so, what are the particulars?
  8. In view of the unsatisfactory manner in which certain contracts have been carried out in the federal Capital Territory, will the Minister take the necessary steps to see that the best and most suitable materials are used and the specifications are strictly adhered to?
Mr ABBOTT:

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. Yes. Anzac Day has been fixed as the date for the ceremony.
  2. Approximately the end of May.
  3. Approximately, May 1931.
  4. No decision has yet been reached.

  5. Yes.

    1. See answer to 4.
  6. No.
  7. The architects will bo responsible for seeing that the specifications are strictly adhered to and that the best materials are used. The Commission will take special steps to ensure that the difficulties that arose in connexion with a previous large contract will not recur.
Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that the Chief Commissioner, Federal Capital Commission, stated before the Public Accounts Committee that the Commission would refrain from fixing rates until a proper balance-sheet and trading account had been compiled, so that every one would know the basis on which rates had been computed, and ratepayers would have the opportunity of saying whether the Commission wasright or wrong?
  2. Has this balance-sheet been compiled, and,, if so, when will it be available for perusaL by ratepayers?
Mr ABBOTT:

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. Yes.
  2. Yes. lt was included in the Commission’sfourth annual report which was presented toParliament on the 7th February, 1929.
Mr TULLY:
BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that the Federal Capital Commission is installing a central concrete mixing plant to supply the Federal Capital Commission contractors with concrete ready mixed?
  2. If so (a) has the Federal Capital Commission had expert opinion of the possibility or otherwise of this innovation; and (6) on what class of work does it intend to use this system ?
Mr ABBOTT:

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes. 2. (a) Yes; (6) on practically all classes of concrete work in the city.
Mr COLEMAN:

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. What amount has been expended on the erection of the (a) residences, and (6) schools in connexion with the Canberra Forestry School ?
  2. What is the annual cost of maintenance, tuition, &c. ?
Mr ABBOTT:

– The information is being obtained, and will be supplied tothe honorable member as soon as possible.

page 533

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH RAILWAYS COMMISSIONER

Mr LACEY:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for Markets and Transport, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Commonwealth Commissioner for Railways will retire this year?
  2. If so, will the Minister, to avoid the precedent adopted by some State Governments of employing imported commissioners, give preference to Australian applicants?
Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Transport · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. Yes.

page 533

QUESTION

IMPORTATION OF DISEASED DATES

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. With regard to the attempt to import diseased dates into Australia, has his department consulted the Health Department with a view to prohibiting the introduction of diseased dried fruits?
  2. Has the Premier of Victoria made a request to the Commonwealth Government suggesting that it would be beneficial to Australia if the Commerce Imports Regulations were amended so as to provide that all dried fruits (dates, figs and raisins) shall have the date of the season of production legibly marked on the outside of the container?
  3. Will the Minister inform the House how the matter stands at present?
Mr GULLETT:
Minister for Trade and Customs · HENTY, VICTORIA · NAT

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No; it is a matter for the Health Department to deal with.
  2. Yes.
  3. The matter is at present receiving consideration.

page 533

DEPARTMENT OF MARKETS

Transfer to Canberra

Mr ANSTEY:

asked the Minister for

Markets and Transport, upon notice -

When is it proposed to transfer the Department of Markets to Canberra?

Mr PATERSON:
CP

– So far as is compatible with economical and efficient working, as many as possible of the central administrative staff of the Markets section of the department have already been transferred to Canberra. The question of transferring the Transport section recently added to the department is receiving consideration.

page 533

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE, CANBERRA

Roofing

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Has the nominal 80 tons or over of gravel prevented rain coming through the roof of Parliament House?
  2. If not, in how many places has rain come through ?
  3. What was the total cost of the repairs to the roof, including the cost of the gravel?
  4. What is the name of the person or persons who advocated this means of keeping out rain?
  5. Does the added weight of water caused by rain conduce to the roof giving better shelter ?
  6. Was the roof put on by contract; if so, who were the contractors?
Mr ABBOTT:
CP

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The use of gravel on the roof of Parliament House was not for the primary purpose of preventing rain coming through. Its purpose was to provide a protective covering to the pliable felt which is the waterproofing element.

  2. So far as can be traced, in three places only did the recent heavy rains penetrate the roof covering. 3. (a) The cost to the Commission for repairs to roof under the gravelled area, nil;

    1. the cost to the Commission for repairs at other points, approximately £3; (c) the cost of the additional felting, together with bitumen and gravel treatment carried out last year, which was not merely repairs, but principally improvements considered to be necessary, was approximately £2,500.
  3. The design of this improved roof treatment was recommended by the executive architect of the Federal Capital Commission, and the Director-General of Works, Department of Works and Railways. In response to a request for advice on the subject of the best roof treatment for an important building the Commission is designing which was sought last week from the Commission’s Advisory Committee on Architectural Design, the five leading Australian architects, who are members thereof, unanimously advised the Commission that the roof treatment used on Parliament House, viz., felt with a bitumen and gravel surface treatment, was, in their opinion, the most satisfactory flat roof covering obtainable for Canberra conditions.
  4. It is not clear what the honorable member means by this question. 6. (a) The roof was constructed by contract; (b) the contractors for the original roof were Messrs. John Howie & Sons, of Sydney; the contractors for the improvements, to the roof were Messrs. Noyes Bros. (Sydney) Ltd.

page 534

QUESTION

POSTAL DEPARTMENT

Mail Branch Officers - Sale of Stamps

Mr COLEMAN:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. What was the total number of temporary and permanent mail officers employed in the Mail Branch, General Post Office, Sydney, during November, 1927, December, 1927, and January, 1928, respectively?
  2. What was the total number of temporary and permanent mail officers employed in the Mail Branch, General Post Office, Sydney, during November, 1928, December, 1928, and January, 1929, respectively?
  3. What was the total amount paid for overtime, Sunday duty, and holiday duty to temporary and permanent mail officers employed in the Mail Branch, General Post Office, Sydney, during the three months November, 1927, December, 1927, and January, 1928?
  4. What was the total amount paid for overtime, Sunday duty, and holiday duty to temporary and permanent mail officers employed in the Mail Branch, General Post Office, Sydney, during the three months November, 1928, December, 1928, and January, 1929?
  5. What did the sale of stamps (postage) in New South Wales amount to during the three months November, 1927, December, 1927, and January, 1928?
  6. What did the sale of stamps (postage) in New South Wales amount to during the three months November, 1928, December, 1928, and January, 1929?
Mr GIBSON:
Postmaster-General · CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · CP

– Inquiries are being made, and a reply will be given as soon as possible.

page 534

QUESTION

RADIUM

Mr LACEY:

asked the Minister for Health, upon notice -

  1. What amount of radium has been delivered in accordance with the order placed last year by the Minister?
  2. Is any amount yet to be delivered; if so, on what date will delivery be made?
Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Health · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The total amount of ten grammes which was ordered has been delivered.

page 534

QUESTION

CIVIL AVIATION

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

In view of the importance of the encouragement of civil aviation in Australia, will he take the necessary steps to defer for a further period Tariff Item No. 358a ?

Mr GULLETT:
NAT

– Before the Minister can further defer a deferred duty, he must receive from the Tariff Board in accordance with section 11 of the Customs Tariff 1921 a certificate that the goods upon which a deferred duty is imposed will not be made or produced in Australia in reasonable quantities and of satisfactory quality on or immediately after the date specified in the schedule for the collection of the duty. This deferred duty has been in the tariff since 1920, and has been deferred from time to time. It is at present deferred to 1st July, 1929, and before that date the position will be considered.

page 534

QUESTION

AUTOMATIC TELEPHONE EXCHANGE AT ROCKHAMPTON

Mr FORDE:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. What is the present position in regard to the proposed automatic telephone exchange for Rock ham pton?
  2. When will the proposal be inquired into by the Public Works Committee?
Mr GIBSON:
CP

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The technical data for Rockhampton is being studied with a view to determining the proper course to pursue.
  2. The department is not yet in a position to say when the studies of the proposal will be concluded.

page 534

QUESTION

APPLES

German Import Duty

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Has any action been taken by his department to enable Australian apples to be imported into Germany on the same terms and at the same rate of customs duty as for apples imported into that country from New Zealand and from the United States of America?
  2. Can he state what negotiations, if any, are taking place on the subject?
Mr GULLETT:
NAT

– The subject has for some time been a matter of discussion with the representative of the German Government.

page 534

QUESTION

DIRECTOR OF POSTAL SERVICES

Salary and Allowances

Mr ANSTEY:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that the Government recently increased the salary of Mr. H. P. Brown, Director of Postal Services, by £1,500 per annum?
  2. Is it a fact that this official has been granted an honorarium of £1,000 for work done abroad ?
  3. What were the salary and allowances drawn by Mr. Brown while absent from Australia ?
  4. Will he extend the same generous treatment to those postal officials who were recently gg ranted a “ Canberra allowance “ by the Public S ervice Arbitrator?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions areas follow: -

  1. Yes.
  2. Yes.
  3. Travelling allowance was at the rate normally paid to other officers representing Australia’s interests overseas, viz., £3 3s. per day on land, 20s. per day on board ship, amounting to approximately £990. The salary paid was at the rate of £2,500 per anuum.
  4. It is the aim of the Government to deal justly and fairly with all officers of the Commonwealth Public Service to whatever department they may be attached.

page 535

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CABLES CONFERENCE

Report

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Has he received an individual report from Mr. H. P. Brown, Director of Postal Services, relating to the deliberations of the Imperial Cables Conference?
  2. If so, will he make it available for the information of honorable members and the public generally?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– No; but confidential reports were sent to the Postmaster-General by almost every mail dealing with developments taking place at the conference. Moreover, the complete report of the conference was made available, which dealt with every aspect of the discussions and negotiations.

page 535

QUESTION

COTTON INDUSTRY

Report op Tariff Board.

Mr FORDE:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Has he yet received the report from the Tariff Board on the question of greater protection for the cotton industry, which was referred to that board for investigation and report on 21st May, 1928?
  2. If not, will he, in view of the unreasonable delay that has already taken place, and the urgent necessity for early action, take steps to expedite completion of the report?
Mr GULLETT:
NAT

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No.
  2. I am unaware of any unavoidable delay. The report is expected at a very early date.

page 535

QUESTION

MELBOURNE-SYDNEY AERIAL MAIL SERVICE

Mr JONES:
INDI, VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Is it proposed to establish an aerial mail service between Melbourne and Sydney?
  2. If so, will tenders be invited for the inauguration of such a service at an early date?
Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Inquiries will be made and a reply will be furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 535

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH LINE OF STEAMERS

Compensation to Employees

Mr BRENNAN:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Can he supply an answer to the representations of one of the masters of the late Commonwealth Line of steamers, already made to him in writing, in support of his claim for compensation ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The ex-master to whom the honorable member refers is presumably one who claimed that the circumstances in his case were different from those of other ex-masters and ex-officers of the Line to whom compensation had been refused. This matter was referred for the consideration of the Shipping Board who now advise that they are unable to agree to recognition of the claim.

page 535

QUESTION

TRADE REPRESENTATIVE IN CANADA

Mr FORDE:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. What method was adopted by the Government in selecting an Australian trade representative in Canada?
  2. Were any public or commercial bodies invited to suggest suitable appointees, and, if so, what were the names of such bodies?
  3. What is the estimated annual cost of conducting the new trade office in Canada?
  4. What is the annual cost of our trade representation in America?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. and 2. After making full inquiries in commercial circles the Government - following the usual practice in the making of such appointments - exercised its discretion in selecting the gentleman it considered most suitable for the position.
  2. It is estimated that the cost will be £8,000 per annum.
  3. Separate figures are not available as to the cost of the section of the Commissioner’s office which deals with trade, but these will be obtained and supplied to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 536

PAPERS

Jacob Johnson Trial.

Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT

.- Last Thursday the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Coleman) asked me to lay on the table of the House certain documents to which I referred during the discussion on the prosecution of Jacob Johnson. I now comply with his request by laying copies of these and of other documents on the table. One is a letter from Sullivan Bros., solicitors for Johnson, and I add my reply to it. There is also a letter which I have since received from Andresen, together with my reply, and a letter from the Marine Cooks, Bakers and Butchers’ Association, and the reply which I sent to it.

The following paper was also presented : -

Quarantine Act - Regulations amended, Statutory Rules 1929, No. 17.

page 536

QUESTION

TELEPHONE COMMUNICATION BETWEEN PERTH AND EASTERN STATES

Mr GIBSON:
Minister for Works and Railways · Corangamite · CP

. - I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1921, the following proposed work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report, viz.: - Establishment of Telephone Communication between Perth and the Eastern States.

The proposal is to establish telephone communication between Perth and the eastern States by utilizing the two existing 300-lb. copper telegraph lines for the establishment of a voice-frequency telephone circuit. The telegraph traffic would then be carried on high frequency carrier channels upon the present physical lines. The proposal includes provision for the following facilities: - One voice-frequency telephone channel, eight duplex teletype telegraph channels, and one reserve wire between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie. The telegraph channels will carry all the departmental and cable company’s traffic between Perth and the eastern States. The grade of telegraph service will be higher than that given at present. As the telegraph traffic increases, two additional duplex telegraph channels can be added to the installation without incurring capital expenditure at any point intermediate between the two terminals, Adelaide and Perth. The telephone channel will provide first-grade telephone service. As the telephone traffic increases, two additional telephone channels can be added to the installation without incurring any further capital expenditure in buildings, power -plant or transmission maintenance apparatus. All that would be necessary would be to run an additional wire on the existing poles. The estimated immediate cost of the work is -

The revenue to be derived can only be estimated approximately; but, based on departmental estimates, it is anticipated that not less than £13,000 per annum will be obtained from the proposed telephone system. The annual charges for the proposed telephone system are estimated to be £9,600, approximately.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 536

QUESTION

EDGECLIFF AUTOMATIC TELEPHONE EXCHANGE

Mr GIBSON:
Minister for Works and Railways · Corangamite · CP

.- I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-21, the following proposed work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report: - Edgecliff, New South Wales - Establishment of automatic telephone exchange.

The proposal is to erect a building on a site which is Commonwealth property, at the corner of Kiaora-lane and Anderson-street, Edgecliff, and install therein an automatic telephone switching system having an initial equipment for 3,700 subscribers’ lines, and an ultimate capacity of approximately 6,000 subscribers’ lines. It is proposed that the initial equipment shall be capable of extension to the ultimate capacity named, and thus enable requirements in the proposed automatic exchange area to be met for twenty years after the proposed date of opening.

Owing to the growth of subscribers’ lines in the eastern portion of the area, the present manual magneto telephone exchange is not now at the telephonic centre, and it will not be economical to extend the external line plant to the existing site after about December, 1929. The existing building will not permit of much greater expansion of the manual exchange equipment after that date. The estimated immediate cost of the work is -

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 537

CAULFIELD AUTOMATIC TELEPHONE EXCHANGE

Mr GIBSON:
Minister for Works and Railways · Corangamite · CP

– I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-21, the following proposed work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report: - Caulfield East, Victoria - Establishment of Automatic Telephone Exchange.

The proposal is to erect a building on a site which has been acquired in Waverleyroad, near Burke-road, Caulfield East, and install therein an automatic telephone switching system having an initial equipment for 2,000 subscribers’ lines and an ultimate capacity of approximately 10,000 subscribers’ lines. It is proposed that the initial equipment shall be capable of extension to the ultimate capacity named, and thus enable requirements in the proposed automatic exchange area to be met for twenty years after the proposed date of opening.

The area which will be served by the proposed Caulfield East telephone exchange comprises the eastern and southeastern portions of the present Malvern exchange area, which include the populous and rapidly developing areas of East Malvern, Caulfield East and Glenhuntly. The exchange is necessary in order- to meet the rapid develop ment in these areas, which cannot be catered for in the future in the existing Malvern exchange, and to obviate unnecessarily high expenditure on external plant. The installation of the proposed exchange will enable the department to provide a cheaper and more efficient service to subscribers in the extreme limits of the areas mentioned.

The estimated cost of the work is : -

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I wish to obtain some information from the Postmaster-General regarding the equipment used in the construction of telephone exchanges. Most of this material, I presume, is imported, and I should like to know whether the department is’ paying unduly heavy sums by way of royalty for the use of equipment covered by patents. The department is a particularly good customer for such material, and it should be possible to obtain favorable terms from the manufacturers.

Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle

.- It is time that the Postmaster-General recognized the requirements of places other than the capital cities. There are important offices in other centres, and many of the telephone exchanges attached to them are greatly congested. The department derives considerable revenue from these offices, and would derive much more if proper facilities were provided.

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

.- In view of the large sums expended annually on the construction of telephone exchanges in this country, will the PostmasterGeneral have inquiries made as to the cost of exchanges in New Zealand, with capacity of 5,000 to 10,000? If the cost is substantially below that in Australia, inquiry might be made as to the reason, and whether it is due to the adoption of different designs and equipment.

Mr C RILEY:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

.- I wish the Postmaster-General would outline the policy of his department in regard to the conversion of manual exchanges to automatic. I am glad that the conversion of the exchanges at Edgecliff and Caulfield is to be referred to the Public Works Committee, but there are exchanges in other places which also need to be converted. In the electorate which I represent there are many important industrial centres, including Mascot and Botany. Both are catered for by manual exchanges! Would it not be advisable to group together several districts served by manual exchanges, and have them served by one automatic telephone exchange? I understand that within the next month a great many telephone mechanics will be dismissed. Some of these men have been with the department for years, and many of them are returned soldiers who have been in the employ of the department since their return from active service. If it is possible to obtain money for defence purposes, we should make an effort also to find sufficient funds for the conversion of manual to automatic exchanges in important centres, and thus provide employment for men, who after years of service are expert in wiring and installation work. I trust that the Government will .take steps to speed up the installation of automatic telephones so that the services of these specialists may be retained.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

– When does the Postmaster-General intend to put into operation the policy of which the Country party boasts, of providing telephone facilities for outlying country districts and so giving encouragement to people to go on the land ? In my experience, he has given less consideration to the country districts than to the big cities. My drawers are full of rejected applications for telephone services in country districts.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Littleton Groom:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– I remind honorable members that this is not a discussion on the general policy of the Telephone Department. It is a motion referring to the installation of automatic telephones at a specific centre, and only passing references may be made to other matters.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– I do not intend to embark upon a discussion of the general policy of the department. It may be that honorable members opposite can get what they want, but my experience has been that the Postmaster-General administers his department on political and not on truly developmental lines.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I ask the honorable member to withdraw the suggestion that the Postmaster-General is administering his department improperly. He has said in effect that the Minister is actuated by political considerations rather than the merits of the cases submitted to him.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– I am stating my experience, Mr. Speaker.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must withdraw the statement.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– If it is improper to give one’s experience in these matters, I withdraw my remark.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must withdraw the remark unconditionally.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– I withdraw it, but I hope that the Postmaster-General will take honorable members into his confidence and tell us why he has for several years neglected to give effect to the policy of the Country party, and when he proposes to push on with the work of providing telephone facilities for country districts.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I ask the Postmaster-General to outline the policy adopted in dealing with applications for automatic telephone exchanges. Does the granting of applications depend upon priority of application, geographical considerations, the distribution of population, or the persistence of honorable members in pressing the claims of particular localities? If we knew the policy of the department, a good deal of trouble would be saved. For some time I have endeavoured to get the Postmaster-General to agree to the installation of an automatic exchange in a large country centre which he formerly represented in this chamber. If he outlines the policy of the department in regard to applications, I may discover why my representations have not been successful.

Mr MCGRATH:
Ballarat

.- Twelve months ago an experiment was instituted between Buninyong and Ballarat with the object of ascertaining whether it would be possible to give small groups of telephone subscribers in country centres the advantage of an all-night service, without seriously increasing the cost of it. I understand that the experiment has been satisfactory. It would be mi, immense boon to country subscribers if they could be granted an all-night service. What has been the experience of the department in this experiment?

Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– On many occasions in this House I have referred to the charges made for telephone services in country districts.

Mr SPEAKER:

– That subject is not before the House. i must ask the honorable member to confine his remarks to the motion and make only incidental references to other subjects.

Ma-. Mcwilliams. - i bow to your ruling, Mr. Speaker. The installation of automatic telephone exchanges is a boon to subscribers. In country districts great disadvantages are suffered because telephone services are not continuous. I trust that the Postmaster-General will increase as early as possible the number of automatic exchanges in operation. I shall take another opportunity of dealing with the subject of telephone charges.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I wish to impress upon the Postmaster General the necessity for manufacturing automatic telephone appliances in Australia. We have been installing automatic telephones for the last twenty years, and it is surely time that we undertook the manufacture of them here. We have up-to-date machine shops at the Cockatoo Dockyard and the Lithgow Small Arms Factory, and we have any number of expert mechanics. It seems to me, therefore, that we should cease sending hundreds of thousands of pounds out of this country annually for automatic telephone equipment. We have an adverse trade balance which could he reduced if we did a little more work for ourselves. I trust the PostmasterGeneral will give earnest consideration to this aspect of the subject.

Mr MARKS:
Wentworth

.- I do not intend to make any long reference to the subject of “ talkies,” which the honorable member for Maribyrnong opened up in commencing this discussion on telephones, although I am tempted to do so. I rise to urge the Postmaster-General not to dismiss without the most careful consideration the request of the Mayor and Aldermen of the Municipality of Woollahra that the post office at that centre should be remodelled and an automatic telephone exchange installed there. These gentlemen have’ been connected with the municipality for many years and know its needs. I congratulate the PostmasterGeneral upon the decision to instal an automatic exchange at Edgecliff.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.- I feel obliged to say a word in reply to the suggestion that has been made that the Postmaster-General is giving too much consideration to the telephone needs of Sydney. Sydney is the fifth city of the world and has a population of more than 1,000,000 inhabitants. The population of New South Wales is only about 2,200,000. The big newspaper offices and firms of Sydney have numerous telephones installed in their premises, and I suppose that it would be impossible to find a row of ten consecutive houses in the city without a telephone. The revenue received from the Sydney telephone service makes possible the extension of telephones to country districts. The Sydney people do not object to the fees which are charged for their telephones, and they should be given the best service possible, bearing in mind the needs of other districts. We are proud of our city, which is visited annually by thousands of people from other parts of the world, and we feel that it merits the best service that can be rendered to it. The generosity of Sydney is well known, and I trust that honorable members will not cast reflections upon its people, lest a false impression should be created.

Mr THOMPSON:
New England

, - During the recent election campaign the provision of automatic telephone exchanges was brought under the notice of country people by candidates supporting this Government. They said that the Postal Department was making every effort to expedite the installation of automatic exchanges at country places where, at present, the offices, in most instances, are closed at 6, 7, or 8 p.m. I, at that time, believed that the Department would, possibly, be able to commence the installation of these promised automatic exchanges at a comparatively early date. Nothing appealed to the imagination of the country people more than did the promise to provide automatic telephone exchanges in the outback districts. It appears to me that the Postmaster-General is not in a position to indicate to the House o’r to the country when this desirable reform is to be instituted, and for that reason I wish to suggest to hiin that steps be taken without delay by the Postal Department to review the whole subject of the provision of country telephone services, particularly in the far distant districts. The telephone service is practically the sole means of communication of outlying districts, and yet, in the majority of instances, the exchanges, which are run by allowance postmasters, some of whom are very poor hands at their job, are closed at 6 p.m., when the farmers and pastoralists are leaving the fields for their homes.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is in order in making incidental reference to country telephone exchanges, but he may not discuss the whole policy of the Postal Department.

Mr THOMPSON:

– The promise that automatic exchanges would be installed in country districts appealed greatly to the imagination of the country people because it offered every prospect of a continuous telephone service. Nothing is more irritating to the country people than their inability to make use of the telephone service after 6 p.m. Particularly is that the case when allowance postmasters are in charge of the exchange, because many of them are hostile to the -local residents, or unsuitable for the positions they hold. Very often the Department promises to give an extra service if the residents contribute, say, from £30 to £50 towards the cost. That is a very unfair method of providing telephone services, because the additional payment usually devolves upon two or three of the residents. I ask the Post master-General to say when the promised telephonic millennium in country districts is to commence.

Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I am pleased to note that automatic telephone exchanges are to be installed in certain centres in Australia, but I regret that this work is to be undertaken at the expense of the country districts. An experiment of this kind should bo tried first in the country districts where telephone services are urgently required. In Western Australia the outback districts have little or no means of telephone communication. That State is making great progress, particularly in the country districts, whereas development in many of the country settled districts in other States is practically stationary. The population of the electorate of the Postmaster-General has not increased to any extent since federation, yet I venture to say that it has not been neglected on that account. The distance from Norseman to Esperance in Western Australia is 126 miles, yet the intervening area is entirely without telephone facilities. The nearest hospital to Esperance is at Norseman, and it is impossible for sick persons at Esperance or in the centres in between to get into immediate touch with the hospital. If telephonic communication were established there many lives might be saved. I believe that there is some tentative arrangement with the State Railway Department for the use of its line in case of emergency, but that cannot be availed of except in the evening. I invite the Postmaster-General to tour the country districts of Western Australia, especially my electorate. If he does so, I promise him that he will be well received. He would thus be able to obtain first-hand knowledge of the requirements of the people, and, as a result, I believe that, instead of proceeding with the provision of an up-to-date automatic telephone system in the big cities of Australia, he would give the country districts the facilities that they urgently require.

Mr PROWSE:
Forrest

– I’ cannot complain of the work of the PostmasterGeneral in respect of the provision of telephone facilities in country districts. I think that he has shown more consideration to country districts than did any previous PostmasterGeneral, but, at the same time, I desire to express the hope that he will press on with the work of installing automatic exchanges in the outback settlements. That should be a national work. The people in the country are working for the nation, and if they have to leave the fields during working hours to use the telephone, their loss of time becomes a national loss. The provision of an automatic telephone system would enable them to put calls through during their leisure in the evenings.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- I can quite understand the protest of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson) against the setting aside of that portion of the Country party’s policy relating to the provision of telephonic facilities in country districts.

Mr Thompson:

– That statement is hardly fair to me.

Mr FORDE:

– The Country party candidates promised before the election that automatic telephone exchanges would be established in country centres, yet one of the first- acts of the PostmasterGeneral after the election, is to bring down a proposal for the establishment of automatic telephone exchanges at Caulfield, Melbourne, and Edgecliff, Sydney. I have no objection to the cities receiving the attention that they deserve, because in large centres of population, telephone facilities are necessary, but, unfortunately, the Government frequently loses sight of the claims of the country districts. During the recent campaign the Country party propagandists published some rather good literature, which wm no doubt helpful to that party. It contained a sketch of the PostmasterGeneral - and a veritable farmer he looked - with telephone and telegraph wires all around him. He was depicted as a magician who, merely by a wave of the hand, was about. to provide automatic telephone exchanges for the convenience of everybody in the community, particularly the farmers in the back blocks. It is surprising that he has not yet announced when this comprehensive scheme of telephones is to be commenced. If the Country party propagandists were sincere, their promise to the electors to provide automatic exchanges in country districts should be given immediate effect. At one time Rockhampton was promised an automatic telephone exchange. Responsible officers of the Postmaster-Generals Department, in evidence before the Public Works Committee, stated that in Rockhampton an automatic telephone .exchange was urgently needed; yet action to install such an exchange has not yet’ been taken, although it would be a great boon to the farming community in the surrounding district. It is more necessary to install these exchanges in country districts than in the city, because the farmers have to work from daylight to dark, and they frequently find that when they wish to use the telephone the local post office is closed, and they have to pay a special charge to have it opened. If these exchanges were established at small country post offices a farmer could ring up at any hour and would not need the assistance of a postal official.

I desire that the Postmaster-General should say definitely what is the policy of the department, and whether he intends to give effect to the promises made at the last election by the Country party propagandists, who suggested that the Nationalists could not be depended upon to provide these facilities for those who live in country districts. If the pact is to be of any value to the unfortunate farmers they should be the first to be given the benefit of future extensions. The PostmasterGeneral should tour the country districts and thus obtain first-hand knowledge of their requirements. I can promise him a very good reception if he visits the Capricornia electorate, and can assure him that numerous deputations of primary producers will wait upon him to urge the installation of automatic tele-‘ phone exchanges and the liberalization of the existing postal and telephone facilities.

Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay

.- Every fair-minded man in Australia must admit that the present Government has, in six years, given greater telephone facilities to the people in the country districts than were given by all of those which preceded it. In. every part of Australia the telephone system has been extended during the last few years, largely as a result of the sympathy and activity of the present Postmaster-General. That honorable gentleman promised to investigate the possibility of providing, in certain country areas, an automatic exchange which would give continuous service throughout the 24 hours. A number of these experimental exchanges have been established, and, doubtless, so soon as the Postmaster-General is in a position to do so he will give approval to further extensions. That was the only promise which was made by any Country party candidate or canvasser during the last election campaign. We, at any rate, are quite satisfied that the gentleman who at present administers the Postal Department has been largely instrumental in having telephonic facilities extended in our country districts. If there is to be any alteration of the existing policy it should be in the direction of permitting the use of private lines and community lines at night, without the payment of an additional fee. A similar practice should be adopted at railway stations, where an officer is in attendance for only a few hours during the day.

Mr COLEMAN:
Reid

.- The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) has rendered a very useful service to the House and the country by initiating this discussion. Only rarely do we have an opportunity to listen to a statement of policy by the PostmasterGeneral, not only in relation to the extension of the automatic telephone system, but also in connexion with the general administration of his department.

I wish to refer particularly to the policy that is pursued in regard to the granting of preference to Australian-made materials, in the equipment of these exchanges. From time to time, by letter and on the floor of this chamber, I have protested to the Postmaster-General against the policy of the department, which in the past has not given the fullest measure of preference and sympathy to the Australian industry. The honorable gentleman should seize this opportunity to make the position clear.

I should also like to know whether the construction of automatic telephone exchanges has had a tendency to cheapen maintenance costs, and whether there is a likelihood of rentals and charges being lowered. I cannot refrain from criticiz ing the attempts that are made by the department to over-commercialize the telephone service.

A phase of the department’s policy which has evoked considerable criticizm, and that affects every electorate in the Commonwealth, is its demand for what are regarded as exorbitant indemnities against loss, where public telephones are installed. I should like the PostmasterGeneral to make a comprehensive statement of policy. He appeal’s to prefer to “ blush unseen and waste his sweetness on the desert air “.

Mr JACKSON:
Bass

.- It is well to remember that automatic exchanges have proved successful over a period of years. In 1912 the first of such exchanges was installed at Geelong. The policy of the department has been to make the change-over gradually in the . principal centres of population. I believe that I was the first member of this House who raised the question of community automatic exchanges, and I resent the statement of the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Forde) that if I were to pay more attention to the interests of country districts, my popularity would be greater. It may be news to that honorable member that at the last election I was returned on the votes of the people who live in the country districts of the electorate of Bass. It is only where electric power is available that it is economic to install an automatic telephone service. This facility can be extended only by a process of evolution. If the department is to adopt a policy of providing community automatic exchanges by rapid process this House will have to be prepared to face an expenditure of anything up to £25,000,000 within a short period. Personally, I consider that such an expenditure would be well worth while; but it will not be possible to carry out in a few years all the work that is desired in this direction. If the Government were to suggest the immediate expenditure of such a large amount, the Leader of the Opposition would charge it with extravagance, just as he did during the last election campaign.

Mr LACEY:
Grey

.- We should give credit to those who initiated this discussion. Neither the PostmasterGeneral nor the Government can claim t.o have done anything exceptional to advance the interests of country districts.

Mr Gibson:

– The honorable member cannot complain of the way in which his electorate has been treated.

Mr LACEY:

– On a former occasion, when the Postmaster-General took to himself the credit for having inaugurated a progressive policy, the gentleman whom I defeated in the electorate of Grey, the Honorable A. Poynton, wrote to the press a letter in which he stated that it was during his administration of the Postal Department that it was decided to launch out on an ambitious policy for the extension of telephonic, telegraphic and postal facilities. This morning the PostmasterGeneral has moved three motions, all of which have for their object the improvement of facilities in city areas; therefore, we who represent country districts have a perfect right to complain. A great deal has been said during this debate regarding rural automatic exchanges, and there appears to be an impression that this is a new project. I can remember discussions that took place upon it, and questions that were asked concerning it, prior to the removal of the Seat of Government to Canberra. Even then experiments were being made, and if the department had been as progressive as it might have been the advance would have been more considerable. Honorable members repeatedly receive from the department letters stating that certain works cannot he undertaken because of their cost. I received this morning a notification that it is not possible to provide telephonic facilities for certain areas in the northern part of South Australia; despite the fact that there are established towns along the transcontinental railway, and much settlement is taking place, they cannot get telephone connexion. The paramount consideration with the department should be, not the revenue that is likely to be received, but the facilities that are required and the amount of settlement that may take place. A large portion of my electorate is being rapidly settled, but the people in those districts are unable to obtain telephonic facilities; yet we are asked to support three proposals to improve facilities in city areas! Areas already served with manual exchanges could very well be satisfied with them for some years, and the money saved by not converting them to automatic could be used to better advantage in the extension of country facilities. The Country party traded at election time on the cry, “ Special facilities for country districts.” But this Government, with a Country party member as PostmasterGeneral, is proposing works which will be of no advantage to the rural areas which particularly have need of automatic telephone exchanges. Many farmers in my constituency have not had anything like a fair return for their labour during the last few years; they work from daylight to dark to gain an existence. If some implement breaks they have to wait a week or more before they can replace it, whereas if they could have access to a telephone they might be able to get a spare part in a couple of days. I hope that the Postmaster-General will see that effect is given to the policy enunciated by his party at election time, and that instead of expending huge sums on large schemes in the metropolitan areas the present meagre facilities enjoyed by the country districts will be extended.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Thanks to the action of the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) various honorable members have had an opportunity to contrast the treatment meted out to city areas with that received by country districts. It i3 to be hoped that, as a result of this debate, the people in the country will receive more consideration in the future. The rural population is in urgent need of the telephones, telegraph lines, and mail services that are obtained so easily by city people.

Mr Fenton:

– See how the Government is splashing up money in Canberra !

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The composite Government, with a so-called Country party section, is concerned not so much in providing necessary services for country districts, as in pouring money into a sink in Canberra. For this policy the Postmaster-General must accept his share of responsibility. Like many other honorable members representing country constituencies, I have been asking for the extension of telephone services from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m., and in other places from 8 p.m. onwards. These applications come particularly from districts that are liable in the summer season to be ravaged by bush fires. We are told that no extension can be granted unless so many additional subscribers are obtained, and even when that condition is complied with the postmaster must be prepared to work night and day to provide a continuous service for scanty extra pay, because the department will not bear any further cost.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! I ask the honorable member not to continue in that strain. He is entitled to make a passing reference to matters related to the motion, but he may not discuss the general policy of the Postal Department.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am pleading for an extension of automatic telephone services in country districts. Twelve months ago the PostmasterGeneral promised that an experiment would be ‘made in the Ballarat district with a rural automatic set, and I understand that the trial has been eminently successful. What does the honorable gentleman propose to do about it?

Mr Gibson:

– I will tell the honorable member, if he will give me a chance.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I will take no risks with the Minister, who made a promise twelve months ago and forgot about it until he was reminded of it to-day by honorable members on this side of the House. The honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson conveyed the impression that ho secured hundreds of votes in country districts by giving the people to understand that they had only to return him to Parliament and telephone exchanges would be broadcast throughout the country. That is typical of the deception that is practised week after week in the bulletin issued by the Country party.

Mr Fenton:

– Who is Munro?

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Whoever he is it is time that the people realized how he is attempting to deceive them with his weekly propaganda. He asks them to believe that their- salvation is dependent upon the continuance of the Country party, and the honorable member foi’ New England and his colleagues stalk the country at election time, winning votes by rehashing that stuff.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! Does the honorable member intend to connect his remarks with the motion? .

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Yes. The people in the country are deceived into the belief that they have only to keep this Government in office and necessary services, including automatic telephones, will be provided throughout the land. That is wilful and malicious deception. We are entitled to know from the Postmaster-General when he intends to fulfil the promise he made twelve months ago that he would ascertain the possibilities of rural telephone sets. As the representative of a rural constituency I know the need for these conveniences. Not a day passes but I receive letters asking for an extension of telephone hours. Continuous services would be of more help than anything else to people in the country districts during the bushfire season. Why is there such differentiation between city and country in connexion with great public utilities? The Postmaster-General has declared that these services must pay their way. There are many Government services of which that is not expected. What would happen if this Federal Territory were closed until it could pay its way? That policy is not followed by the State Governments in regard to education roads, and other public facilities. It is time this Government gave effect to the policy of decentralization which it so prominently features during election time.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I ask the honorable member not to open up a wider subject just now.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I can show that decentralization and the provision of automatic telephone services throughout the country are subjects which are closely inter-related. If we can give those who live in the outback districts better roads and greater facilities such as automatic telephone services and wireless, we shall encourage more men to go out into areas which are not now very attractive. The more attractive we can make the outback areas, the more easily can we cope with the evil of centralization. That is the only way in which we can give effect to the ideal referred to by the Country party remnant in its weekly bulletin. Conditions are much better now than they were 40 or 50 years ago, when wireless was unknown, and telephones were little used. These improvements, together with the advent of the motor car, have made all the difference between isolation and civilization. I have long advocated that the States should be cut up into districts under the charge of deputy postal directors, who would be in touch with the needs of their particular areas and able to give them better attention. The Riverina district, for instance, embraces a very wide and wealthy district. If it had a deputy director stationed there it would have a much better chance of receiving proper attention than when all requests have to go through the Sydney office.

Mr Hill:

– Does the honorable member suggest that the Riverina is a wealthy district?

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Yes, it is one of the wealthiest, and I suggest that the district is sufficiently important to warrant stationing a deputy director there. This plan might be adopted, not only for the Riverina, but in other areas as well, such as the Western District of Victoria.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is now dealing with matters of administration, which are quite apart from the subject under discussion.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– If the system I have suggested were adopted, residents who preferred a request for an automatic exchange would not have to deal with an officer stationed in Sydney who is out of touch with their requirements. People living in the more remote districts need automatic telephone services, because, under the present arrangement, most of the offices close at 6 o’clock. It is not until after that hour that most of those on the land have any leisure for telephone conversation. The PostmasterGeneral gives the impression that he is just bubbling over to tell us the remedy for all these troubles, and I do not wish to deprive him of his opportunity. He seems, in fact, to be straining at the leash to tell us that we are all wrong in what we have been saying, and that the improvements we have suggested are at present under contemplation. I hope he will not repeat his performance of twelve months ago, when many things were promised, but few performed.

Mr MARTENS:
Herbert

.- I hope that the Postmaster-General, in dealing with applications for extended telephonic facilities, will look at the matter from some other angle than that of pounds, shillings and pence. In a small place adjoining my electorate called Mount Coolan, some little distance from Bowen, there are about 100 people, who have only most limited and indirect means of communication. The only excuse given by the department for its refusal to provide better facilities is that there are not enough subscribers there to warrant the expense. In my opinion, it is more important that the settlers should be provided with proper means of communication, than that the department should balance its ledger on every little undertaking. In any case, it is an open question whether the department would actually lose anything if it installed the necessary services. I do not propose at this stage to deal with the general policy of the Postmaster-General, and I agree with the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) that very much valuable work has been done by the department in Queensland. I still think, however, that more might be done to help those living in country districts.

Mr PRICE:
Boothby

.- I have listened with great attention to the debate on the extension of automatic telephone services, and I support the motion of the Postmaster-General, that the Public Works Committee should inquire into the proposed works. I believe that a thorough investigation should be made of all these proposals, and I should like the committee also to inquire whether automatic exchange equipment cannot be satisfactorily manufactured in Australia. We are sending too much money out of Australia to America and other places for this material. The balance of trade is already greatly against Australia-, and the Postmaster-General’s Department should not do anything unnecessarily to tip that balance still further against us. I believe that we can manufacture these goods in Australia. We have the men here to do the work, and the necessary talent to supervise it. “We need a Ministry which is prepared to see that the work is done locally. As regards the town versus country controversy, I represent a metropolitan area, but I am certain that the electors in my district would be glad to see adequate facilities extended to those in the country. In that way the lives of those out-back would be made pleasanter the country districts more prosperous, and the people in the cities would benefit in their turn.

Mr GIBSON:
PostmasterGeneral · Corangamite · CP

– The motion which I moved deals with the erection of an automatic telephone exchange at Caulfield, but in the course of this discussion I have not heard one word in regard to the erection of that exchange. I have heard references to the electorates of individual members throughout the length and breadth of Australia, .but nothing about Caulfield. Honorable members referred to so many matters that I have not time now to answer them all, even if the occasion were suitable. The honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton), the honorable member for South Sydney (Mr. E. Riley), and the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Price), referred to the possible manufacture of telephone equipment in Australia. As a matter of fact, there are only three or four systems of automatics in the world, and we are compelled to use a system which will interlink with others. It is not sufficient for an automatic service to work merely in its own district ; it must work through at least three or four other exchanges. Therefore, it is necessary to have standardized equipment that will work readily with other systems. In Australia , Ve are not confined to one system, but our choice is limited to two or three at the most. Amongst the manufacturers there is competition, of which we get the benefit. The makers in England and America are building equipment for systems which will work in -with one another. The department calls tenders all over the world for these installations, but the only firms which can tender are those supplying equipment suitable for our installations. It has been suggested that the material can be manufactured in

Australia. I say unhesitatingly that it cannot. To install the machinery required for this work would cost more than the value of the parts we would use in the next 20 years. Works are established in England and America sufficient to make all the equipment needed for the whole world. If we installed a manufacturing plant here it could be kept in operation for only a few weeks in the year. Under present conditions our installations are actually costing less per line than the installations of America. The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) stated that the installations of New Zealand were costing less than those of Australia. I can only reply that as the honorable member is a member of the Public Works Committee to which this matter is to be referred he will be able to get his colleagues to look into that point.

I strongly resent the accusation of the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) that there is a political significance in the administration of my department. No other honorable member of Parliament has ever made such an allegation against me. I have invariably regarded the applications submitted to me from the point of view of their necessity for the development of the country and have never for a moment looked at them through political eyes.

Mr SPEAKER:

– When _ a statement has been withdrawn it is not usual for it to be discussed.

Mr GIBSON:

– I shall not make any further reference to the matter. My reply to the statement that I have given undue regard to applications for new installations in city areas as against country districts is that 56 per cent, of the money available for this work is being spent in the country and 44 per cent, of it in the city. There is no justification whatever for the statement that the department gives the cities preference over the country districts. Motions introduced into the House to refer work of this description to the Public Works Committee nearly always specify city areas because installations in the country rarely cost as much as £25,000, and therefore it is not necessary to refer them to the Public Works Committee. This Government has spent more than all the Commonwealth Governments and State Governments which preceded it in providing telephone facilities for country districts.

The honorable member for Wannon asked whether applications for automatic telephone installations were dealt with in order of priority of application. Priority it nearly always determined by necessity. That is the case in this instance. The Malvern telephone exchange has 8,000 subscribers connected with it, and few exchanges can carry that number of lines satisfactorily. It was impossible to extend the exchange, and as 4,000 prospective subscribers live in the Caulfield area, we felt that it was reasonable to do something for them.

Questions have been asked about the policy of the Government in regard to the installation of rural automatic exchanges. I have made several statements on this subject. Australia really pioneered rural automatic exchanges. We carried out certain experiments with parts manufactured in our own workshops, and after reaching a certain state of efficiency Ave decided to send an engineer abroad to ascertain whether the parts could be economically manufactured in bulk so that we could extend the system. Those that we manufactured wore much too costly to make the system practicable. We could not, even now, make the parts at a low enough figure to justify its extension. Two British firms manufactured two sets of instruments, and one of these is operating between Buninyong and Ballarat. We did not intend to run headlong into an expense of hu. id reds of thousands of pounds over this business before we could prove thai, it would !-! efficient and economical. The Buninyong circuit has been in successful operation for two or three months, and the Government has now decided to spend £100,000 in purchasing additional sets so that rural automatics may be. installed elsewhere. Honorable members must not run away with the idea that these exchanges can be established anywhere. Tt is necessary to have power somewhere in the vicinity of the plant in order to operate the service. The policy of the Government in regard to- this branch of the telephone service is definite, and hui been announced frequently.

I shall take a more appropriate opportunity to reply to other matters thathave been mentioned during the debate;-

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 547

INSTITUTE OF ANATOMY, CANBERRA

Mr ABBOTT:
Minister for Home Affairs · Gwydir · CP

– I move -

That in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1921 the report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works on the proposed construction of buildings and formation of zoological reservation at Canberra for tlie Institute of Anatomy (formerly known as the National Museum of Australian Zoology) shall, for the purpose of considering certain modifications of the proposed work which appear to be necessary as (he result of the development of the preliminary scheme originally submitted to the Committee, be remitted to the committee for its further consideration and report.

On the 14th June, 1928, the Minister for Home and Territories submitted a motion asking the House to agree to remit to the Standing Committee on Public Works a report made by that committee on a proposal to erect a National Museum of Australian Zoology at Canberra. The motion was agreed to, but, owing to pressure of other work, the Public Works Committee was unable to consider and report upon the reference prior to the dissolution of Parliament. As a new Parliament has since been elected, and a fresh committee appointed, it is necesary that a fresh reference be made, and for that reason the present motion is submitted.

It will be remembered that this project was originally referred to the Public Works Committee early in 1927. and the committee submitted a report to Parliament on the 17th March, 1927. in which it recommended that the proposed work be carried out. The committee’s’ investigations were based upon preliminary sketch plans prepared by the Department of Works and Railways, as there had not been sufficient time, owing to pressure of other work, for the Federal Capital Commission to submit a developed scheme in consultation with the Director of the Museum. The work of developing the scheme was subsequently undertaken,’ and, as a result of further consultation and investigations, it was considered eminently desirable to provide additional accommodation to deal with the everincreasing size of the collection and specimens, and the research work which will be undertaken by the Institute. This involved an enlarged proposal for the Museum building, and a detailed study of the scheme suggested a complete change in the architectural treatment. As these proposals represent a substantial variation of the scheme asoriginally reported upon by the Public Works Committee, it is necessary that the report bo remitted to the committee to consider the modifications and to present its views to Parliamentin a further report.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– A competition was held for the design of this building and a design accepted. Are we to understand now that some alteration has been made in the accepted design? If so, the position is most unsatisfactory, and we certainly should not be justified in rushing this motion through. We ought to know what is to be done with the money that we vote for work of this description.

Mr McGRATH:
Ballarat

.- The Public Works Committee, of which I am a member, had this matter referred to it some time ago, but was not able to complete its inquiry. The subject has to be remitted to it again, because a new committee has been appointed. The alteration made to the accepted design was referred to the committee by the last Parliament.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 548

COUNCIL FOR SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

Laboratories and Administrative Buildingfor Divisionof Economic Botany

Mr ABBOTT:
Minister for Home Affairs · Gwydir · CP

.- (By leave.)-I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1921, the following proposed work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report, viz. : - The erection of laboratories and an administrative block for the Division of Economic Botany, for the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, Canberra.

Arrangements have been made for the head-quarters of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research to be moved to Canberra in due course, and a building scheme has been prepared for the housing of its various activities. The site for the institution is in the area allocated for scientific purposes on the lower slopes of Black Mountain, in the north-west of Canberra, in proximity to the area reserved for the university. The cost of carrying out the scheme will, of course, considerably exceed £25,000, and it is therefore necessary that it be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and . report. Arrangements are being made for the various sections of it to be submitted progressively for consideration. The project now brought forward comprises the provision of suitable laboratories and an administrative block for the divisions of economic botany and entomology. As required by the provisions of the Public Works Committee Act, I lay on the table plans of the buildings, estimates of the cost, and a detailed description of the project, indicating the purposes of the proposed work, the necessity for its execution, and its present and prospective value.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I protest against the haste with which this business has been rushed before us. Even though the subject is to be referred to the Public Works Committee there should be opportunity for a preliminary discussion of it.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

– This motion would not have been brought forward so hurriedly but for the fact that a new Public Works Committee has just been constituted and is desirous of getting before it, as soon as possible, the various matters into which it is required to inquire. Generally speaking, I agree with the honorable member for Maribyrnong that opportunity should be afforded for a preliminary discussion of these matters.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The information supplied to us by the Minister on this subject is most meagre. We have not been given any idea of the full cost of the building. All we know is that it will be considerably in excess of £25,000. Surely it is not unreasonable to ask that more information should he placed before honorable members before they are asked to vote on such a subject.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

– I ask leu ve to continue my remarks at a later hour of the sitting.

Leave granted; debate adjourned.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.-

page 549

WINE OVERSEAS MARKETING BILL

Bill presented by Mr. Paterson and read a first time.

Message recommending appropriation reported.

page 549

FINANCIAL AGREEMENT VALIDATION BILL

Second Reading

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

, - I move -

That thu bill be now read a second time.

This is a bill to validate the financial agreement that has been made between the Commonwealth and the States of New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania. Besides readjusting the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States, it provides for the consolidation of the national debt of Australia, and the constitution of a common borrowing authority for the whole of the Australian Governments. The agreement was submitted to the State legislatures, and has been ratified by them, and it now comes before this Parliament. To give effect to the permanent clauses of the agreement it was necessary that the Constitution should be amended, and an act was passed during the last session of the last Parliament, and on submission to the people by way of referendum was approved by an overwhelming majority. It is, therefore, now possible to validate the agreement, and its permanent clauses will operate as from the 1st July of this year. During the two financial years, 1927-28, and 192S-29, the temporary clauses of the agreement have been operating, and the introduction of this bill is the final stage of long and protracted proceedings.

In view of the many discussions that have taken place on the subject, I do not propose to relate at any length the history of the financial arrangements existing between the Commonwealth and the States since federation. What those relations should be was one of the great stumbling blocks to federation, and caused grave concern to the framers .if the Constitution. Eventually, the matter was settled on a basis which I think was generally regarded as not thoroughly satisfactory, it being provided that for the period of the ‘first ten years threefourths of the customs and excise revenue collected by the Commonwealth, which alone had power to impose and collect such duties, should be returned to the States. In addition, as at that time the activities of the Commonwealth were limited, a total amount of £6,059,000 was also paid by the Commonwealth to the States during those years. At the end of that period the amount to be paid was a matter for the determination of the Commonwealth Parliament. Negotiations took place between the Commonwealth and the States, and eventually the proposal was put forward that for a further term of ten years - from 1910 to 1920 - a per capita payment of 25s. per annum should be made by the Commonwealth to the States. That involved a reduction of £2,845,000 on the amount previously received by the States. The Commonwealth Government of the day urged that that was a proper reduction because the obligations of the Commonwealth were increasing, and the States had been relieved of the necessity to make provision for defence and for old-age pensions. While this arrangement was in operation the position changed in a dramatic manner. The Great War took place and the Commonwealth assumed new obligations, which I need not at this stage detail. After the war we were left with obligations which amounted and still amount to something like £30,000,000 a year in interest on war expenditure, and our responsibilities to our soldiers. Over £20,000,000 is being paid by way of interest and sinking fund on our war debt, from £7,000,000 to £8,000,000 in respect of soldiers’ pensions, and there are various other items relating to repatriation, hospitals and medical attention for returned men. It was seen while the war was proceeding, and immediately afterwards, that the obligations of the

Commonwealth had so greatly increased that it would not be in a position to continue indefinitely the per capita payments to the States, which had been arranged at a time when the financial position was quite different. In 1919 a proposal was put before the States that the per capita- payment should be reduced by 2s. 6d. a year until its amount had been brought down to 10s. per head. That, however, was not acceptable to them, and the matter was left in abeyance until 1923, when the present Government came into office. It has been pursued ever since in a way which some of our critics describe as almost relentless; but we were determined to find a solution of this problem in order to remove the States from the position of uncertainty in which they found themselves at -the expiration of the ten-year period 1910- 1920. At any time, on the mere decision of a chance majority of the Federal Parliament, the whole basis of their finances could have been upset by a reduction of the per capita payments. The rights of the States and the basis on which their financial relations with’ the Commonwealth should be settled have been discussed on many occasions in this House; but no one to-day will maintain that the States had any constitutional or legal claim to the maintenance of the pir capita payments. Few will argue, even on a moral basis, that any specified sum could be said to be the amount that the Commonwealth should continue to pay. Feeling strongly that, if we were going to subscribe to the principles of federation, the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States should be put upon some basis of security to the States, we have pursued this matter ever since and have now come to the point at which, I trust, it is going to be settled for all time. It has been suggested that I have taken a rather extreme view of this subject of the security of the States. I should like to quote to honorable members the opinion of Mr. Collier, the Premier of Western Australia, on this subject. He said -

I would infinitely prefer the Financial Agreement to the per capita payments, with the possibility and probability of those payments being abolished at any time.

Mr SCULLIN:
YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– From what authority is the Prime Minister quoting?

Mr BRUCE:

– From Mr. Collier’s speech on the Financial Agreement. I do not wish to speak at any length on this phase of the subject. The policy of the Government has been to so arrange the finances of Australia that the States would not beleft in the state of uncertainty that h asprevailed since 1920. The first steptaken to solve this problem was the conference with the Premiers held in 1923 - just after this Government came into office. The subject was exhaustively discussed, and at one time it looked as if an agreement would be reached. Five of the six States approved the proposals of the Commonwealth in principle; but, unhappily, the negotiations fell through and the conference closed. The matter was pursued by negotiations with the States. A further conference was held in May, 1926, when it became evident that no solution of the difficulty would be found so long as the per capita payments were continued. In 1927 the legislation providing for these payments was repealed. Considerable discussion then took place, and it was urged by some that the States were being treated ruthlessly by this Government. Speaking in this House at the time, I said -

If the States will meet us we are prepared to consider any scheme and any method that may be suggested. It is our desire not merely to give the States absolute justice; but, so far as lies in our power to deal with them generously. This Parliament will not permit injustice to be done to them. The purpose of this measure is to give thom fair and equitable treatment in a financial re-adjustment which is essential to the interests of the whole of the people, and particularly of the State authorities themselves.

That was early in the year 1927. In July of that year the Commonwealth met the States in conference and submitted to them proposals that were practically identical with those which were eventually embodied in the financial agreement endorsed by the whole of the States. The negotiations were begun in Melbourne, and were continued a month later in Sydney. Eventually, an agreement was arrived at with all the States. A draft agreement was made out by the Commonwealth and submitted to them. A few months elapsed, in which views were interchanged concerning some difficult questions that had arisen in connexion with transferred properties. The agreement, in its final form, was then drafted, accepted by the whole of the States, and approved of by their Parliaments and the Parliament of the Commonwealth. It made temporary provision for the period from July, 1927, to June, 1929, and then for a permanent arrangement. It was obvious that if the agreement was to take a permanent form it must have a basis that could not be altered at the whim of a chance majority in any Parliament. The obligation devolved upon the Commonwealth to take over State debts to the amount of over £600,000,000. Obviously, the Commonwealth could not agree to accept such an obligation without absolute security. That aspect of the matter presented considerable difficulty, because only the Constitution, could give the necessary permanency, and if the agreement were embodied in the Constitution it would become inflexible. It was realized that the matter could not be handled in such a way, because changing circumstances in future years might necessitate some variation. Therefore, to give the agreement the necessary degree of flexibility, and to ensure that it should not be altered, save in directions that are acceptable to each of the parties, the electors were asked to consent to the Constitution being amended to enable us to legislate with regard to this or any other agreement that may be entered into with the States, but only with the consent of every party to the agreement.

This agreement deals with two questions; first, with Australia’s debt, and, secondly, with the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States. I shall discuss those two separately, because I am inclined to think that, while there is opposition in some quarters to the manner in which the agreement deals with the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States, there is a universal acceptance of the principles embodied in that part which concerns the consolidation of the debt, the Loan Council, and the provision of an adequate sinking fund covering the whole of Australia’s indebtedness.

It is provided that the Commonwealth shall take over and assume responsibility for the whole of the debts of the States, which are to be consolidated. The Commonwealth will have to pay interest upon that debt to the extent of £7,585,000, the balance being made up by the States proportionately to their indebtedness. There is to be a sinking fund of 7s. 6d. per cent, for the redemption of all past debts of the States, towards which the Commonwealth will contribute 2s. 6d. per cent., which, in the aggregate, will amount to approximately £801,000. Thus those debts will be redeemed within a period of 58 years. That is a marked advance ; because, while in some cases there was an adequate- br more than an adequate sinking fund, in other cases no provision whatever was made in that direction. If we are to maintain our position as a first-class borrower, and secure the best terms that are obtainable, we must have an adequate sinking fund for the redemption of our past debts. Since 1923 there has been on the statutebook of the Commonwealth, an act which provides for a sinking fund of 10.s. per cent, on the then existing Commonwealth debt and on all future loans. The agreement makes that provision of universal application to future borrowing in Australia, the Commonwealth to contribute 5s. per cent, and the States the balance. The contribution by the Commonwealth with respect to every £40,000,000 of future State indebtedness, will be £100,000 a year. This provision will enhance our credit materially, and also conform with the modern requirement that an adequate sinking fund must bc provided for the redemption of loans. In the past, when the market in either London or New York has been approached, the demand has been made for an adequate sinking fund because of the fact that other borrowers have adopted that practice, their sinking funds in some cases amounting to as much as los. per cent.’ and even £1 per cent. We shall not be asked to provide to that extent, because we have a recognized sinking fund of 10s. per cent., which is quite acceptable to everybody. Our action has been endorsed in both London and New York, and has done a great deal to improve our credit. Provision has also been made for the establishment of a Loan Council that is to be representative of both the Commonwealth and the States. For some years such a body has operated voluntarily, and has done iiliiable and useful work; but there has always been the possibility that one or more of the States might withdraw from it. In such a contingency the effect of the principle is destroyed; because one of the principal functions of such a council is to determine the rate of interest that will be paid, and if one member of the council should break away and pay a rate higher than the Loan Council think proper, the effect would be to force up the rate against every other member. Even «hen it was on a voluntary basis, the Loan Council did a great deal to check competition; but when it is on a permanent basis, it will be in a position to control the situation absolutely. It will have to determine each year the amount i hat Australia as a whole can borrow, first on the local market without detriment to private enterprise and the requirements of private individuals, and then overseas. The principle upon which it will work is, how much of the desired sum can be borrowed on terms that will be acceptable to a first-class borrower, without impairing our credit abroad? It must be remembered that the impairment of the credit (.if even one State would react upon the whole of the existing loans and have a detrimental effect upon the terms of future loans.

The establishment of the Loan Council will in no way infringe the sovereign rights of any government or parliament in this country. When these provisions were first mooted it was imagined in many quarters that the council would be in a position to review the financial proposals of any government, examine the merits of any particular expenditure proposed, and exert an influence upon a State Government with respect to the line of development it proposed to adopt. That is not the position. All that the Loan Council can do is to discuss the position with the representatives of the different governments, and determine exactly- what both the local market and the overseas market can stand, as well as to maintain proper terms and keep up our credit. In that way there certainly is a limitation, but only before the event. A limitation would, in any case, be inevitable. If Australia endeavoured to borrow the amount required to carry out a full programme at a time when obviously the market could not stand it, the terms offered would be unacceptable. Those who are concerned about the sovereign rights of the States should remember that if there is any infringement of those rights there is absolutely the same infringement of the sovereign rights of the Commonwealth. But the thorough examination of the position will show that there is no interference With the sovereign rights of either party. These provisions governing loan operations will be of the greatest benefit to Australia. It is essential to place the public debt on a better basis, and to get rid of the difficulties which have confronted both the Commonwealth and the States from the beginning of federation.

This arrangement for the consolidation and- gradual amortization of the debt by means of a sinking fund will be most productive of good in the years to come. We can appreciate that belter if we consider the effect upon our credit of the existing uncertainty and the competition of numerous borrowers in the markets of the world. An illustration which I have mentioned on a previous occasion is the best I know, and is worthy of being put before the House again. The officials of the Commonwealth Treasury have calculated that if Australian, credit had stood as high in 1927 as the credit of New Zealand we should have received £1,000,000 more for the interest we paid. Having regard to Australia’s resources and population in comparison with those of New Zealand, our credit, instead of being lower should have been infinitely higher than that of the Dominion. I shall mention another instance of what happened in the absence of a body to determine the basis upon which governmental borrowing should take place. In December, 1925, the Loan Council, consisting at that time of representatives of five States, decided that no government should pay more than 5^ per cent, for loans issued at par. That decision was accepted by New South Wales also, although that State was not represented on the council, and was rigidly observed. During its continuance, £1S,720,000 of new money was raised in Australia, and £28,435,000 of maturing war loans were converted on those terms.

Eventually, however, New South Wales, not being able to get its loan requirements from the borrowings arranged by the Loan Council, and being in urgent need of money, offered 5-i per cent, for money over the counter. Immediately the price at which loans could be issued depreciated, and instead of the Commonwealth issuing at par its £36,000,000 conversion loan at the end of 1927, it had to accept £98 10s. If New South Wales had not departed from, the arrangement the Commonwealth would have floated the money at par. That is a very good illustration of the effect of competitive borrowing.

It is desirable that we should realize bow the arrangement between the Commonwealth and the States in regard to the control of borrowing is regarded in those markets in which we have raised money and upon which we shall have to depend to some extent in the future for the funds required to develop Australia. The Financial News, one of the leading financial papers in Great Britain, said, on the 2nd June, 1927-

If by the referendum vote the public in Australia approve of the ‘determination to straighten thing’s out in regard to sinking funds, public credit from that fact alone will he lifted to an extent which will make tha sinking fund obligation under the scheme to all intents nil. In other words, the threeeighths allocated to the common sinking fund will be offset - in time more than offset - by the average saving in the rate of interest. In addition, there will be all the advantages of unity - advantages gained at no cost. A plan of this kind is a genuine essay i:i statesmanship. It embodies the large view and the long view, and without encroachment on any real rights of the States it is in principle honest and sound.

The Wall-street Journal, of New York, said, on the 24th June, 1927 -

Australia’s programme for transfer of State debts to the Federal Government, by constitutional amendment, is not only a noteworthy departure _ in national finances but reflects recognition of two important problems in Australian finances, namely, the somewhat precarious position which had developed federation mid the credit standing of some of the States. A clear-cut plan is proposed for service and amortization of existing and future State obligations and, what is equally important, subsequent borrowings will bc concentrated in the hands of ku official body which will direct loan operations at home and abroad with due regard to money market conditions and the relative interests of the States and Commonwealth. … It is apparent that the proposal just submitted at the Premiers’ Conference at Melbourne is a stand for the principle of federation. It would seem also to be recognized that whatever the political liberties of confederated States .may be within their own borders, there is only one proper standard to be observed in the money markets. By thus assuming responsibility for State debts and for future loan operations Australia has undoubtedly improved its credit standing in what are likely to be its two principal banking centres in the future, London and New York.

Those two extracts will give the House an idea of the impression that the agreement between the Commonwealth and the States has created abroad. I think it would bc a tragedy if the agreement were rejected, because unquestionably that action would do incalculable damage to Australia’s credit in the principal money, markets of the world.

I turn now to that portion of the agreement which adjusts the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States. I have heard the agreement criticized on many grounds. The allegation has been made that it is ungenerous to the States. My reply is that, if there is any ground for criticism, it is that the agreement is possibly too generous to the States, ensuring as it does the stability of their finances by pledging the revenues of the Commonwealth too far into the future. I. cannot appreciate the complaint that the agreement is ungenerous to the States; but I can understand objection to it on the ground that it is possibly too generous to them. Some critics urge strongly that the principle of the per capita system payments should have been retained, lt is conceivable, although taking all the circumstances into account it was not practicable, that a better scheme than that embodied in the agreement might have been devised for adjusting the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States, but I will not concede that a continuance of the per capita system could possibly have been better. Indeed, I have never been able to discover any justification for that system ; it is the most unjust and vicious arrangement of which I have ever heard. Let me give one illustration of how it would work : New South Wales, with its large population and established manufacturing industries, is getting and must continue to get for many years a greater numerical increase of population than any of the other States can hope to achieve. Some of the less developed States may have a greater percentage increase, but that is not worth much, having regard to the fact that the population of New South “Wales is about 2,400,000, and that of Western Australia about 400,000. It is on the numerical increase,- not on the percentage increase, that the per capita payments are made, and if they continued - assuming that the Common wealth Government could stand up to them - increasingly large sums would-be paid to New South Wales, and comparatively small sums to a developing State like Western Australia. How could that arrangement be accepted as the most equitable way of dealing with the problem? Surely the financial assistance granted by the Commonwealth to the States should be based upon the needs of the individual States, in order, as far as possible, to bring about uniform development and prosperity throughout Australia. That result could never bc achieved by paying a tremendous sum annually to a rich State like New South Wales, with a large population capable of supplying the financial needs of the State, and only a small sum to Western Australia, which has to face a problem of development that is far beyond the capabilities of a mere handful of people. We must have something better than the per capita system to meet the requirements of the Australian people. It is true that if the per capita system were continued, each individual State would, over a long period of years, receive more than under the agreement, although by the latter, every State will receive more from the Commonwealth for some years. The people who support the per capita system because eventually each State would get more from the Commonwealth than under the agreement, overlook the fact that there is no guarantee that the per capita payments would continue indefinitely. There is a school of thought, to which I frankly admit I belong, that believes the per capita system to he iniquitous. Travelling about Australia, I have met a tremendous number of people who hold that view,, and indeed the case against the per capita system is so overwhelming that inevitably within a few years the people would revolt against it. The Commonwealth finances too would prove insufficient. The Federal Trea- sury could not continue for ever paying to the States 25s. per head of their population. Some honorable members may be entirely in favour of that system to-day, but I ask them to look ahead and imagine themselves, or their successors in five or ten years being required - as inevitably they would be, because of the growth of Australia’s population - to increase taxation from year to year so that the Commonwealth might hand annually increasing amounts to the States, to be expended by them uncontrolled by the taxing authority. To expect the Commonwealth Government to take the responsibility of raising the enormous amount that would be required year by year in the future to keep up the per capita payments, and so make smooth and easy the financial path of well developed and thickly populated States, would be to expect a most amazing reversal of human nature. No one who has looked at this problem dispassionately and carefully could imagine that the per capita payments could continue without alteration for even another ten years.

I have been arguing so strongly against the per capita payments that I have perhaps exposed my flank to the very heavy charge that in the agreement I have virtually consented to the continuation of the payments for another 58 years. That would be a just criticism of the attitude that I have taken. But we had to face the fact that since 1910 the States had received a per capita payment of 25s. per head, and that previously they had received a considerably greater revenue from the Commonwealth. Consequently some State leaders took the view that the States had a vested right, to the payments, and that this Parliament should not by force majeure, deprive them of this source of income. Bearing this in mind, .the Government endeavoured to come to a mutual agreement with them. We said that we were prepared to contribute to the State revenues approximately £7,585,000 - the amount of the per capita payment in 1926-27 - in the form of interest on State debts which we would take over. I pointed out, however, that it seemed to me to be unjust to allocate the amount on a purely per capita basis without taking into consideration the unquestionably greater needs of some of the

States. Queensland, South Australia, “Western Australia and Tasmania saw the force of my argument that in the event of the £7,585,000 being dealt with in this way the money should be allocated on other than a purely population basis; but New South Wales and Victoria considered that it was a positive outrage for such a suggestion to he made. We then suggested that the amounts should be distributed in relation- to the amount of the debts of the various States. I pointed out that that would mean a contribution of 1.18 per cent, to each State, whereas distribution on a per capita basis would mean 1.25 per cent, upon the State debt of New South Wales; 1.55 per cent, upon that of Victoria; 1.07 per cent, on that of Queensland; 0.83 per cent, on that of South Australia; 0.78 per cent, on that of Western Australia, and 1.19 per cent, on that of Tasmania. South Australia strongly supported my view. I distinctly remember the enthusiasm of its delegates, for under the per capita distribution it would receive only 0.83 per cent, of its debt. It was impossible, however, to reconcile the conflicting views of the States, and eventually it was agreed ‘ that the amount should be distributed according to the several percentages that I have just given. No man on earth could have got the States to agree to the allocation of the money on any other than a per capita basis. This was the only acceptable solution of the problem, although I must confess that I do not think it just or equitable.

The payments by the Commonwealth under the agreement will include £S01,000 annually in respect of the 2s. 6d. per cent, towards the sinking fund of 7s. 6d. per cent., which is to be built up to redeem the past debts of the States. The agreement also involves a settlement of the long standing and vexed question of the interest rate to be paid upon the value of transferred properties. Ever since federation, the Commonwealth has paid 3-J per cent, on the value of these properties, and although almost every State Government, irrespective of its political complexion, has endeavoured to get every Commonwealth Government, irre spective of its political complexion, to increase this to the ruling rate of interest or something near it, not a single alteration has been made. The question should have been settled long ago. Under this agreement the rate of interest will be increased to 5 per cent., which will represent an extra annual payment by the Commonwealth for all time of £165,000. In regard to future loans, the Commonwealth will contribute 5s. towards the 10s. to be paid into the sinking fund, which will represent an extra’ payment of £100,000 annually by the Commonwealth in respect of every £40,000,000 borrowed by the States.

In 1927-28 the amount payable to the States under the per capita system, would have been £7,741,000, whereas the amount paid under the agreement was £8,569,000, or an increase of £828,000. In 1928-29, the amount payable under the per capita system, would have been £7,S71,000, whereas the amount which will be paid under the agreement will be £8,678,000, or an increase of £807,000. It has been suggested by some persons that the object of the Government in urging the acceptance of this agreement is to obtain some advantage for itself and to embarrass the States. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the next few years the Government under this agreement will pay more to the States than it would have paid had the per capita system been retained. The payments under the agreement will be greater for the next three or five years at least, than they would have been under the old system. The fact of the matter is that the Government is pressing for the acceptance of the agreement for most disinterested reasons. If it is accepted we shall be obliged to raise almost £1,000,000 more revenue per annum for all the years that we shall yet remain in office, than would otherwise have been needed to meet the extra payments to be made to the States. We ask honorable members to accept the agreement, because we earnestly believe it to be the best that could be obtained. We also think that it provides an equitable solution of this long neglected problem.

It has been suggested in some States, that if the agreement is accepted it will bo a final determination of the financial relations between the Commonwealth and the States, and that thereafter no State will ever be granted a penny more by the Commonwealth than it is entitled to under the agreement. Evidence is already available to prove that this is not the case; for since the agreement was made, the arrangement for granting financial assistance to Tasmania has expired, but the Government has intimated that it will be renewed and that if, at the termination of the fresh agreement, Tasmania still requires assistance, it will be granted. As a matter of fact, the agreement will make it possible for the Commonwealth to render assistance to the States on a more equitable basis than in the past. The payment for ali time of a per capita grant to well developed and thickly populated States could not be justified, but there is a good deal to be said for the granting of assistance by the Commonwealth to Struggling States of large area and small population. I have made it quite clear in the course of my public utterances that the policy of this Government is to grant all the assistance it can to struggling and undeveloped States, and so long as it remains in office it will continue that policy in order that the undeveloped States may be brought to the same stage of development as the more thickly populated ones.

During the election campaign, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) said that if his party were returned to power, it would restore the per capita payments to the States; but I have not yet seen a definite statement by the honorable gentleman as to the amount of money that would be made available for this purpose, or the period for which the payments would be continued. Did the honorable member mean that by an alteration of the Constitution he would provide for all time for the payment of 25s. per capita to the States?

Mr Scullin:

– Did not the Prime Minister read the printed copy of the Labour platform, which I sent to his office so that he might have definite information on the point?

Mr BRUCE:

– I have not yet seen any statement. by the Leader of the Opposition as to what extent, or for how long, he would restore the per capita payments. A plank in the platform of the Labour party advocates their continuance until unification has taken place, when, I presume, everything will be taken over by the Commonwealth.

Mr Scullin:

– The platform says “ No diminution of the per capita payments until the Constitution is altered.”

Mr BRUCE:

– I do not desire to misrepresent honorable members opposite; but, in view of their statements, I presume that, if returned to power at any time, they would be prepared to restore the per capita payments of 25s., and while they continued in office there would be no diminution of the amount until unification came about.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The Labour party platform does not say that.

Mr BRUCE:

– Then I suggest that honorable members opposite should tell us definitely what they do propose. Ceritainly the States would be well-advised if,, before accepting the promise of the restoration of the per capita’ payments,, they insisted upon honorable gentlemen opposite embodying it in the Constitution,, so as to make their position quite safeHonorable gentlemen opposite would have no trouble in promising that, because,, according to them, there should be no. diminution of the payment until unification, which would mean an entire alteration of the Constitution. They will, however, have the utmost difficulty in gaining; support for such a proposal. Opposition members now show an amazing sympathy with the States. They would not reduce the payments to the States by one farthing. They must-have forgotten, however,, what took place in 1911, when the Labour Government of that day took the best part of £3,000,000 from the States at onestroke. The States should remember that, episode when they are asked to considerthe protestations of regard for their financial safety which are now beingmade by honorable members opposite. A.n honorable member has interjected that this Government has never done anything for Tasmania. That is the unkindest cut of all, because no government has ever done more for that State than this Government. The question submitted to the people by referendum was whether we should alter the Constitution. I was studiously careful, when speaking on the subject, to point out that an affirmative vote would not amount to an endorsement of the financial agreement. I felt that it was only fair to say that, so that the people might know the facts. But I did not stay at that. In my speeches throughout the election campaign I stressed the need for the ratification of this financial agreement. I made that one of the major planks of the Government’s policy, and there is no doubt that the great majority of the electors, notwithstanding my desire that there should be no misunderstanding, voted in the affirmative on the referendum in the belief that, by so doing, they were voting for the financial agreement. The sentiment of Australia is in favour of the agreement being validated and made permanent, so that we may obtain a final and definite adjustment of the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States.

I come now to the attitude adopted by the representatives of the States when discussing the agreement, and I ask honorable members opposite to read the speeches of the Premiers who attended the conference at which it was adopted. Honorable members opposite pretend that the representatives of the States were forced to accept the agreement. Well, these are the words of Mr. Collier, the Premier of Western Australia, regarding it-

I do not think there is any possibility of getting as good an agreement under any other conditions. The fact that we are going to be secured in our position for 58 years justifies its adoption by Parliament and the people of the State. I do not fear that we are going to suffer in any way in regard to the money we require for development, or even that there will be any surrender of sovereign rights which will affect the future of the State in any way.

Mr. McCormack said ;

There are many advantages in the agreement. Sooner or -later Australia had to face the question of the control of borrowing, and this is a very fine step in that direction. As mentioned in the Constitution, sooner or later the Commonwealth would have had to consider taking over the States’ debts, and that is accomplished under the agreement. Sinking fund payments are provided for in which the Commonwealth and the States will participate. The gains to the Commonwealth as a whole will be the more effective control of borrowing, the more effective and searching investigations of the borrowing programmes of the different States, and of the Commonwealth itself, the regulation of borrowing on the market.

Mr. Hogan, then the Labour Premier of Victoria, was another of the gentlemen whom, the Opposition say, I forced to accept the agreement, but who expressed his approval of it. I am afraid that honorable members opposite must abandon that line of argument. Surely the State Premiers and the State Parliaments are able to speak for themselves on this matter without their assistance ! My experience has been that the quickest way to rouse the ire of the State Premiers and Parliaments is for the Commonwealth to interfere in their affairs. Whether the agreement is advantageous to the States is a matter for their own determination. This House endorsed the agreement and it has since been ratified by all the State Parliaments. Surely we can leave the matter there ! Our duty is to consider the agreement from the Commonwealth point of view. To those who oppose its ratification, I would point out that opposition is useless unless a better scheme can be suggested. Furthermore, we have arrived at this position: that, should all the States and the Commonwealth concur, the agreement may be varied and improved. If the Opposition has an alternative scheme which it considers is better than that which we have made, it will be able, when it gains office at some future date, to ask the States to accept that scheme in place of what is now agreed to. But at this stage I strongly urge the House to accept the agreement as it stands, because it is essential, in the national interests, that it should be ratified by this Parliament. It is the only practicable solution of the financial problems that confront us, and when it has been validated the credit of Australia will be enhanced, and ultimately it should stand as high as that of any other country in the world..

Debate (on motion by Mr. Soullin.) adjourned.

page 558

TRANSPORT WORKERS BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 20th February (vide page 423), on motion by Mr. Bruce - ‘

That the bill be now read a second time.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

.- I listened with pleasure to the speeches of the new members of the Opposition, and I wish to compliment them on their oratory. They are undoubtedly valuable additions to the debating strength on that side of the House. The subject-matter of the bill was discussed at great length before and during the election. The policy of the Government has been endorsed by the people, and there is little need for me to go over old ground. I shall vote for the bill for several reasons. I am sorry that it was necessary to introduce such a measure. Unfortunately, a number of men who sought the protection of the Arbitration Court and promised the judge of that court that if he would expedite the hearing of their plaint they would obey his award, flouted it as soon as it was made. They not only refused to continue at work, but also endeavoured to prevent other persons from operating the transport services. If honorable members opposite had been in office, what action would they have taken to secure the transport of goods? They fought tooth and nail, night and day, the measure that was introduced at the end of last session. Not many hours later they metaphorically went on their knees and begged the men to return to work. At the same time the Australasian Council of Trade Unions held a conference in Melbourne and passed resolutions advising the men not to return to work. The men followed the advice of the Australasian Council of Trade Unions and disregarded that of their elected representatives. There was a well-founded suspicion in the mind of the public that if our friends opposite had been in charge of the affairs of this country they would have been prevented by some power within the Labour movement from doing what they knew to be right in the interests of the general community. If my friends lived on an island like Tasmania and saw ruin staring them in the face after a year of hard work, because some persons in Australia would not work or allow others to work, they would realize the necessity of keeping transport services moving. That is what’ the Government did, and in the only way open to it under the circumstances existing at the time. The position was so serious that it was justified in the action that it took, and its action received the endorsement of the people of Australia. Honorable members opposite endeavoured to make it appear that because the Nationalist party lost a few seats, the people of Australia did not endorse this legislation. It was not the action of the Government in this matter which caused it to lose seats in New South Wales and South Australia, but matters of purely local concern. This part of its policy was endorsed from one end of Australia to the other. I fought the. election on this issue and it is my duty to assist the Government to give effect to it. Protection had to be given to the volunteers. Frequently in the past men who have performed the work of others who have gone on strike have been thrown to the wolves at the termination of the conflict, and for years attempts have been made to prevent them from obtaining work. That sort of thing should not be allowed to continue. At present, those who wish to obtain work on the wharves must obtain a licence, and if there is misbehaviour on the part of any person who holds a licence the licence can be withdrawn. During my election campaign the statement was repeatedly made that the Government would fall down on the job and allow the volunteers to be sacrificed when the strike was over. My reply was that the Government would carry out its promises as it had done before. No previous government fulfilled more faithfully than has this its promises to the electors.

It is a cause for sadness that Australia should find herself in her present position. If we all worked together more harmoniously, our industries would be more prosperous. There is no reason, why an industry should languish because a unionist or any other man declines to work. An industry benefits the workers as well as the man who has his capital invested in it, and if they do not. pull together both must suffer. That must be patent to anyone who is not a communist. The majority of Labour supporters are not communists, but men who believe in improving their conditions by a process of evolution. Talk about class consciousness is quite unnecessary, and must do an incalculable amount of harm.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- Mr. Speaker–

Motion (by Mr. Bruce) proposed -

That the question be now put.

Question put. The House divided.

AYES: 36

NOES: 29

Majority . .7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Question - That the bill be now read a second time - put. The House divided.

AYES: 37

NOES: 28

Majority . . . . 9

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and committed pro forma.

page 559

COUNCIL FOR SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

Laboratories and Administrative Block for Division of Economic Botany

Debate resumed on motion by Mr. Abbott (vide page 549).

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.- As I am anxious to get away to Sydney this afternoon, I suggest that this debate be further adjourned.

Leave granted; debate adjourned.

page 560

ADJOURNMENT

FEDERAL Capital Commissioners and the Press - Waterside Workers Dispute.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

– I move -

Tha’t the House do now adjourn.

For the information of honorable members, I may say that it is almost certain that the House will sit on Tuesday of the “week after next.

Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke

.- I should like to know if the Prime Minister is aware that the Federal Capital Commission this morning at its meeting called in the press reporters, and told them that they might attend the meetings of the Commission and take notes on condition that they conducted themselves respectfully and deferentially towards their betters. As that was tantamount to asking them to stand to attention and salute on the approach of the Commissioners, I want to know if the representatives of the newspapers are to be supplied with suitable knee-pads, so that they may more adequately pay deference to the Commissioners 1

Mr CULLEY:
Wilmot

– I should not have risen at this stage to speak if the Prime Minister had extended to me the usual courtesy that is due to a new member and allowed me, a few moments ago, to make an explanation. During the course of the debate this afternoon the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson) made a charge against the Australasian Council of Trade Unions, which was absolutely incorrect.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Littleton Groom:

– On the motion for the adjournment of the House, the honorable member cannot revive the discussion of a subject which has already been dealt with on a previous motion. The honorable member will have an opportunity at a later stage to speak on the Transport Workers Bill.

Mr CULLEY:

– It is purely a personal explanation I wish to make.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member may make a personal explanation.

Mr CULLEY:

– As a member of the Australasian Council of Trade Unions T attended the conference referred to by the honorable member for Wilmot.

Mr Latham:

– On a point of order, I submit that the observations to which the honorable member wishes to refer’ did not affect him personally, and, therefore, are not a proper subject for a personal explanation.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I understand” that the honorable member was a member of a certain organization and that misrepresentations had been made in respect to something which took place when he was present at a meeting of that body. If he feels that he personally has been misrepresented he is entitled to explain his position, but he must confine his remarks to a personal explanation.

Mr CULLEY:

– I remind the AttorneyGeneral that as a member of the Australasian Council of Trade Unions, I took part in the deliberations of the conference referred to by the honorable member for Wilmot, and I say that the statement made by that honorable member, that a certain resolution was carried by that body, was an absolutely deliberate misstatement of the facts.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member may not charge another honorable member with having made a deliberate misstatement. I ask the honorable member, therefore, to withdraw the word “ deliberate,”

Mr CULLEY:

– I do so, Mr. Speaker; but I say that the honorable member for Wilmot was misleading this chamber and the public by making a statement that was incorrect.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member will please say in what way he has personally been wronged.

Mr CULLEY:

– The statement made by the honorable member for Wilmot was a reflection on me, because I was one of the responsible officers concerned. I want to explain that the Australasian Council of Trade Unions at no time - carried a resolution that the workers should not accept the determination of

Judge Beeby. Furthermore, the AttorneyGeneral knows full well that while the conference was in session–

Mr SPEAKER:

– The knowledge of the Attorney-General must not be called in question by the honorable member, who is entitled merely to correct the statementof the honorable member for Wilmot, by which, he complains, he was personally misrepresented.

Mr CULLEY:

– Then I say that the statement was a deliberate misstatement of the facts.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have already asked the honorable member not to use the word “ deliberate,” and I must again ask him to withdraw it.

Mr CULLEY:

– I withdraw the word “ deliberate.” The honorable member for Wilmot has simply taken something from the capitalistic press. He can have no knowledge of what took place in the Trades Hall, where the conference was held. The honorable member said that the Australasian Council of Trade Unions was alone responsible for the condition in which the waterside workers find themselves to-day.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr Latham:

– On a point of order, I submit that the honorable member must confine himself to a personal explanation, and must not proceed to argue the matter.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have already pointed out to the honorable member that he must confine himself to a correction of the statement in which he claims to have been misrepresented or wronged, and must not argue the case. When the Attorney-General rose I was about to ask him not to do more than that.

Mr Scullin:

– I gather that the AttorneyGeneral objected to a reference made by the honorable member for Denison (Mr.Culley) to something that occurred at the Trades Hall. I claim that if the honorable member feels that he has been personally misrepresented as a member of an organization, he is entitled, in trying to prove the inaccuracy of the charge, to use any evidence that he can produce. He appears to rely on two points ; one of them being that the Attorney-General knows that certain things were not done, and the other that the honorable member for

Wilmot cannot possibly know what transpired at the meeting of the Australasian Council of Trade Unions.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member for Denison was proceeding to argue the case, and he was about to refer to certain statements evidently for the purpose of showing that others were not correct. However, now that he understands the position I am sure he will confine himself to an explanation of how he has been misrepresented.

Mr CULLEY:

– Had assistance been given to the Australasian Council of Trade Unions by the Commonwealth Government, the heated debates we have had during the last few days would not have taken place, and it would have been found that the Australasian Council of Trade Unions, the recognized head of the industrial movement of Australia, instead of doing that which the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson) has accused it of doing, wasendeavouring to bring about the settlement of the dispute on the waterfront. Every step taken by the organization during the lamentable incidents of last October was towards the settlement of the dispute, and I say on its behalf that the statement made by the honorable member for Wilmot was misleading. I throw the lie back in his teeth.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member must withdraw the word “lie”.

Mr CULLEY:

– I withdraw it.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

– I regret that the honorable member for Denison (Mr. Culley) has accused me of having been guilty of an act of discourtesy towards him this afternoon. As a matter of fact, the honorable member was prevented from speaking by the operation of a standing order of this House, which in the interest of the business I felt that I had to enforce. Actually it was the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) who had the call.

I know nothing of the matter referred to by the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Anstey) and naturally cannot express any opinion upon it.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 4.16 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 22 February 1929, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1929/19290222_reps_11_120/>.

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