House of Representatives
23 March 1927

10th Parliament · 1st Session

  1. House of Representatives
  2. 10th Parliament
  3. 1927

Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Littleton Groom) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 941

PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE

Museumof Zoology, Canberra

Mr. MACKAY, as chairman,brought up the report of the Public Works Committee, together with minutes of evidence, relating to the proposed construction of buildings and the making of a reservation at Canberra for a National Museum of Australian Zoology.

Ordered to be printed.

page 941

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

Pacific Islands ShippingFacilities.

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE, as chairman, brought up the report of the Public Accounts Committee, together with minutes of evidence, relating to the Pacific Islands shipping facilities.

Ordered to be printed.

page 941

QUESTION

SESSIONAL. BUSINESS

Mr SCULLIN:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Will the Prime Minister online, for the information of honorable members, the business that the Government desires to be dealt with before the House adjourns?

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

– The Government desires to dispose of the two notices of motion on the business-paper,, the first relating to additional Estimates for the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, and the second, a reference to the Public Works Committee; the States Loan Bill, which has already been debated to some extent; the Wire and Wire Netting Bill, to make regular expenditure which has already been inemrred in some States, particularly Western Australia; the Judiciary Bill, which is non-contentious ; the Fresh Fruits Overseas Marketing Bill, which has reached the committee stage, and should be passed at once, so that, if the scheme is approved by a majority of the growers, it may come into operation in the coming season ; the Pearl Shell Overseas Marketing Bill, which is a replica of other marketing control measures; the War Service Homes Bill, a small measure to increase by. £150 the amount that may be expended upon a war service home in instances in which accommodation for a large family cannot be provided inside the present limit of £800; the Inscribed Stock Bill; the Bankruptcy Bill, which is to enable the consolidating act recently passed by this Parliament to operate, the necessary machinery having been brought into existence in the States; and the Wine Bounty Bill, which will be introduced this morning. Minor measures include an appropriation for invalid and old-age pensions, and supplementary Estimates. The list of business may sound very long, but many of the measures are merely of a machinery character, or are noncontroversial.

page 942

QUESTION

BELIEF FOR MINING INDUSTRY

Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT

– Is the Prime Minister able to announce what relief, if any, is to be given to the mining industry, particularly copper and fluor-spar industries ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– A very exhaustive inquiry has been made in Kalgoorlie in regard to the best means of helping the goldmining industry, and a report on the subject has been received. Consideration of it is nearing completion, and the Government should be in a position to make an announcement in the near future. At the present time, no action to give relief to other forms of mining is contemplated.

page 942

QUESTION

PRECIOUS GEMS

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Having regard to the creation by the Government of control boards to regulate export in various primary industries, will the Prime Minister consider the establishment of a board to control the export of precious gems? Many of the gem industries are languishing; but I am certain that if a control board were created, a more profitable export trade in gems could he established.

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The orderly and efficient marketing of Australian produce overseas is essential. To that end, the system of control boards has been introduced, and the Government is prepared to extend it to all industries which desire that such action be taken. If persons substantially qualified to speak on behalf of a large section of those engaged in any industry represent to the Government that the establishment of a control board is desired, the Government will be prepared to propose the necessary legislation, which will, of course, include the usual condition that a general poll of those engaged in the industry must precede the operation of the scheme.

page 942

QUESTION

ROYAL VISIT TO CANBERRA

Mr PERKINS:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Prime Minister aware that about ten or a dozen of the original inhabitants of the Federal Capital Territory, whose ages range from 75 to 96 years, desire to meet Their Royal Highnesses, the Duke and Duchess of York? Will the Prime Minister endeavour to arrange for these old folk to have that privilege?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I am sure that Their Royal Highnesses will be’ pleased to meet any very old residents of the Federal Capital Territory; and, if possible, effect will be given to the honorable member’s suggestion.

page 942

QUESTION

MATCH-MAKING INDUSTRY

Mr MARKS:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister aware that a very inferior -type of match is at present being produced by certain Australian factories, and that when one strikes them the heads fly off, and are likely to cause a fire? I understand that large retailing grocers in my electorate are not stocking Australian matches because there is practically no demand for them. I ask the Minister to get into touch with some of the match-makers with a view to persuading them to produce a match which the Australian public will buy.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I always use Australian matches and invariably find them to be of good quality; but I shall bring the matter under the notice of the matchmaking factories, so that if what the honorable member says is correct the fault can be immediately remedied.

page 942

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Housing of Public Servants

Mr SCULLIN:

– Is the Prime Minister aware of the agitation that is taking place among the public servants who are to be transferred to Canberra, and hashe read a resolution that was carried at their meeting last night, declaring that effect should be given to the recommendations of the Public Works Committee regarding the prices of their blocks of land, and the overhead charges on their homes? That resolution also stated emphatically that the allowances to be provided for public servants are totally inadequate. I ask the Prime Minister personally to investigate this matter, so that we may not have a discontented service when the transfer to Canberra takes place.

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I made, the other day, a long and detailed reply to a question concerning the recommendations of the Public Works Committee and the consequent action that had been taken. I saw in this morning’s paper a report of some meeting that was held last night, but I have not yet had official intimation of any resolution that was carried there. I agree with the honorable member that it is most desirable that there should not be an atmosphere of discontent when the transfer to the new capital of Australia is made. I shall look further into the matter, and I assure the honorable member that the Government desires that full justice shall be done to the public servants.

page 943

QUESTION

SEAPLANE CARRIER

Mr MARKS:

– Can the Minister inform me to what stage the construction of the seaplane carrier at Cockatoo Island Dockyard has advanced, and whether the work up to date is satisfactory to himself and to his advisers?

Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The construction of the seaplane carrier was held up for a short time because of the difficulty of securing material to complete the deck, and also because of a strike. Satisfactory progress is now being made, and it is hoped that the carrier will be available shortly after the contract time.

page 943

QUESTION

EXPORT OF APPLES

Arsenic Sprays

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Has the Minister’s attention been drawn to a statement in this morning’s Sun to the effect that the High Commissioner of Australia has as sured the British Government that every shipment of apples from Australia will be guaranteed free from arsenic ; and will he let the House know briefly what precautions are being taken to meet the desire of the British Government in this matter ?

Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · CP

– I have seen the newspaper article to which the honorable member has referred, and I assure him that every precaution has been taken to ensure that our apples shall arrive in Great Britain in conformity with the guarantee given by Sir Joseph Cook.

page 943

QUESTION

GRAFTON TO SOUTH BRISBANE RAILWAY

Clarence River Bridge

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– On two previous occasions I have questioned the Prime Minister concerning the bridge- to be constructed over the Clarence river at Grafton. As the Queensland Government expects its portion of the railway to be ready in two years’ time, and the New South Wales Government expects its portion to be completed shortly afterwards, will the Prime Minister communicate with the New South Wales Government, pointing out the urgent necessity for the completion of the bridge? Has he received a reply to the representations that have already been made to that Government?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I have not yet received from the New South Wales Government a reply to my communication respecting the completion of the bridge.

page 943

QUESTION

INCANDESCENT MANTLE INDUSTRY

Mr BLAKELEY:

– Did the Tariff Board, some time ago, recommend thai; the incandescent mantle industry should be protected; if so, will the Minister give sympathetic consideration to the board’s recommendation and report?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– A recommendation was received by me some time ago respecting this industry. The Government carefully considered it in the light of the circumstances at the time, and decided to take no action. I promise the honorable member that during the recess the matter will be reviewed by the Department.

page 944

QUESTION

KEW G-UHSTEA

Expropriated Properties

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What are the names, and addresses of the successful tenderers in the last series of sales of expropriated property in New Guinea; what places were sold, what was the upset price, and what price was realized for each property?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The attached statement furnishes the information desired by the honorable member: -

page 945

QUESTION

WIRE NETTING

Advances to States

Mr SCULLIN:

asked the Minister for Markets and Migration, upon notice -

With reference to the £250,000 advanced to the States for the purchase of wire netting under the Advances to Settlers Act 1923, will he state -

Whatadvances have been made to each State.;

On what basis was the money distributed ;

What amount has been refunded from each State;

What was the total amount of wire netting purchased by each State, and how much of it was of Australian manufacture?

Mr PATERSON:

– The following information is now supplied to the honorable member in reply : -

  1. The advances made in each State are: -
  1. The first £200,000 was distributed on the basis of three-fifths population and two-fifths area, and the remaining £50,000 of the appropriation was distributed to the first applicants, irrespective of location. The repayments were re-issued to the States in which they were made, (c) The amounts refunded me: -
  1. What was the totalamount of wire will he supplied to the honorable member as early as possible.

page 946

QUESTION

CASE OF E. J. MARTIN

Sir JOHN GELLIBRAND:
DENISON, TASMANIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that E. J. Martin, late 40th Battalion, Australian Imperial Force, now a temporary telephone employee, and qualified for permanent appointment, bus been rejected for such appointment on the sole ground that he is considered by the Commonwealth Medical Officer tobe at present suffering from tuberculosis?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– Mr. Martin has been rejected for permanent appointment on medical evidence of long disability and possibility of unsatisfactory developments.

Sir JOHN GELLIBRAND:

asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it a fact that E. J. Martin, late 40th Battalion, Australian Imperial Force, is not qualified for a T.B. pension on the ground that it is considered by the Repatriation doctor that he has never suffered from tuberculosis at. any time?

Mr MARR:
NAT

– The case of E. J. Martin is being investigated by the Repatriation Commission as a result of the representations made by thehonorable member to the Prime Minister, and received by the Repatriation Commission on the 19th March. The last record of any action at the Repatriation Commission’s Headquarters, Melbourne, is on the 18th March, 1920. At that time, no mention was made of chest trouble or tuberculosis. The commission, has already made inquiries from its deputy in Tasmania, and the honorable member will be advised of the result.

page 946

QUESTION

TECHNICAL EDUCATION OF FARMERS

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

asked the Minister for Markets and Migration, upon notice -

  1. Has he seen a press cable from Quebec, dated19th instant, to the effect that the Provincial Legislature has voted $50,000 to teach farmers modern classification and packing of agricultural products ?
  2. Will he take into consideration making provision for such sum as is adequate for giving similar education in Australia?
Mr PATERSON:
CP

– The replies to the honorable member’sAustins are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. This is a matter which comes within the province of the various State Governments, and one in connexion with which the States are already performing valuable work. The Commonwealth Government, however, is always prepared to co-operate with the States in any movement for the raising of the standards of Australian products.

page 946

QUESTION

HERD TESTING

Assistance to States

Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for Markets and Migration, upon notice -

  1. What are the conditions attached to the proposals of the Commonwealth Government for financial assistance to the States for the purpose of extending the scope of herd testing?
  2. Have any of the States agreed to participate in the scheme?
  3. What is the estimated total payment per annum by the Commonwealth?
Mr PATERSON:
CP

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The Commonwealth subsidy is 3s.6d. per cow for the first 400 cows in any unit, and is. for each in excess of 400 up to, and including, 1,000 cows, with a maximum of £ 100 per unit. The Commonwealth subsidy is made on the following conditions: -

    1. That each State Government contributes a sum not less than the amount paid by the Commonwealth.
    2. That the sum provided by the Commonwealth and State Governments be used for the . purpose of defraying the expenditure in connexion with herd testing. Where the amount provided by the Commonwealth and the States for any unit is in excess of requirements, the excess to be allottedby the State to the smaller units, i.e., those units whose financial difficulties arc greatest.
    3. That any extra expense necessary be borne by the farmer.
    4. That the testing be done at 30-day intervals.
    5. That the Commonwealth assistance commence as from the 1st July, 1920, and continue in operation until 30th June, 1927, the whole position to be then reviewed.
    6. That each State shall, from time to time, as required by the Commonwealth, furnish full information, and shall also permit Commonwealth officers to make such examination and investigation as may be desired regarding the system of herd testing in operation.

The foregoing conditions apply to all States except Queensland. In that State, there are no herd testing units, and the whole of the expense is borne by the State Government. The Commonwealth subsidy to Queensland will, therefore, be at the rate of 2s. per cow, equivalent to £ 100 for every 1,000 cows tested.

  1. All the States have agreed to participate in the scheme. (Certain variations in the conditions wore asked for by certain States, but were not granted by the Commonwealth.)
  2. The estimated annual payment by the Commonwealth will not exceed £8,000.

page 947

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE, CANBERRA

Tenders for Furnishings

Mr SCULLIN:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that Myer’s tender was accepted for the furnishing of Parliament House, Canberra, although it was £1,092 higher than that submitted by Butcher’s?
  2. Is it also a fact that Myer’s tender was accepted for carpets and linoleums for Canberra, although it was £200 higher than that submitted by Yates and Cashmore?
  3. If so, what is the reason for the acceptance of the higher tender in each instance?
Mr MARR:
NAT

– The information is being obtained from the Federal Capital Commission, and the honorable member will be advised immediately such information is received.

page 947

QUESTION

DUTY ON VACUUM CLEANERS

Mr SCULLIN:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether it is a fact that recently the duty was remitted on vacuum cleaners. If so, will he ascertain why the firms handling these goods have made no reduction in the price to the public?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Yes. The duty on vacuum cleaners was recently remitted by this House. Some time after the abolition of the duties on vacuum cleaners, it was brought under notice that the price of one of the most popular Continental makes of vacuum cleaners had not been reduced. This was confirmed by departmental inquiries. Inquiries were also made into the prices ruling on other makes of vacuum cleaners prior to and consequent on the abolition of the duties. These inquiries showed that varying reductions were made in the prices of other makes.

page 947

QUESTION

SINKING OFLUSTIANIA

Claims against Germany.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the AttorneyGeneral., upon notice -

In connexion with the victims of the sinking of theLusitania, are there any Australian claims against Germany?

Mr LATHAM:
Attorney-General · KOOYONG, VICTORIA · NAT

– ‘The reply to the honorable member’s question is as follows : -

The following claims for compensation were received by the Commonwealth under the reparation clauses of the Treaty of Versailles, in respect of the sinking of the Lusitania : -

page 947

QUESTION

RECIPROCITY WITH CANADA

pricesof Newsprint.

Mr JACKSON:
BASS, TASMANIA

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Will he inform the House of the relative prices of English and Canadian newsprint before the Canadian reciprocal treaty came into operation, and the prices obtaining to-day?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The information is being obtained.

page 947

QUESTION

ELIZABETH-STREET POST OFFICE, MELBOURNE

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the State Government have saved the Commonwealth Government over £1,000,000 in rent; and, if so, will he ask the Cabinet to consider the completion of the Melbourne Post Office, Elizabeth-street, and thus remove the present structure at the corner of Post Office-place and Elizabeth-street?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The Commonwealth has been saved a considerable sum, either as rent or interest, by the generosity of the State Government of Victoria.
  2. The accommodation in the Elizabethstreet Post Office building, and in the building recently erected for telegraph and other purposes, is adequate to meet all departmental requirements for some time to come. The new building referred to was designed to form part of a building extending to Elizabeth-street, to be erected when such further accommodation is required. The completion of the scheme of construction would, however, not be justified at present.

page 948

QUESTION

WAR DEBT REDEMPTION

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– On the 15th March, the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Coleman) asked the following questions upon notice : -

  1. What arc the amounts of the various war debts owing by the respective dominions and foreign countries to Great Britain?
  2. What war debt redemption arrangements have been made by the various dominions, and what are the rates of interest, and amounts paid?
  3. What are the terms, &c, of war debt redemption arrangements entered into between Great Britain and her foreign debtors?
  4. What are the terms and conditions of war debt redemption arrangements made by Great Britain with her foreign creditors, and what are the amounts owing, and how much has been paid?

To which I replied: -

The information is being obtained, and will be furnished as early as possible.

I am now in a position to furnish the following information : -

  1. The Commonwealth of Australia, £86,227,216.

Papers laid before the British Parliament by the Treasury give the following figures, as at 31st March, 1926, in regard to: -

Other Dominions -

  1. Australia. - A funding arrangement has been entered into between the Commonwealth and British Governments, under which the Commonwealth makes an annual payment of 6 per cent, on the original indebtedness. This payment covers interest at £4 18s. 4.15d. per cent., the balance being sinking fund, which will liquidate the whole debt in about 36 years. The amount paid off to date is £6,252,910.

New Zealand. - An agreement has been entered into between the dominion and the British Governments on an annuity basis of 6 per cent. Interest is at the rate of £4 19s. 5.88d. per cent., the balance of the 6 per cent, going to the reduction of debt, which will be wholly extinguished in 1958-59. No information is available as to the amount of debt paid off.

South Africa and Newfoundland. - Information is not available as to the terms of any settlement with these dominions.

  1. Papers laid before the British Parliament by the Treasury show that funding arrangements have been made with the following countries: - France, Italy, Roumania, Portugal, Belgium and Belgian Congo, Poland, Estonia, Hungary, and Czecho-Slovakia.A copy of the agreements made between the Government of Great Britain and the Governments ofFrance, Italy, and Portugal has been laid on the table of the Library. A copy of the agreement with the remaining countries is not available, but a statement setting out the terms of settlement in the case of Belgium has been included with the other papers in the Library.
  2. So far as is known, the only creditor nation of Great Britain in respect of war debt is the United States of America. A copy of the British Parliamentary Paper setting forth the terms and conditions of the arrangement between the two countries has been laid on the table of the Library. Information as to the amount actually paid to the United States of America under this arrangement is not available.

page 948

QUESTION

DRIED FRUITS

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– On the 17th March, the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. Manning) asked’ the Minister for Markets and Migration the following questions : -

  1. What is (a) the total production in Australia of sultanas, lexias, and currants; (b) the quantity exported; and (c) the quantity of each grade exported?
  2. Have any persons been prosecuted for breach of regulation 105 (Statutory Rules 1926, No. 22) ; if so, how many, what was the amount of fines imposed, and what amount has been collected?

I am now in a position to furnish the following replies : - 1. (a) The total production in Australia of sultanas, lexias, and currants during the 1926 season was as under: -

  1. The quantity of each grade exported is not yet available, but the information is being obtained and will be supplied as early as possible.

    1. No persons were prosecuted.

page 949

QUESTION

CANBERRA HOUSING CONDITIONS

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– On the 3rd March, the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Perkins) asked the following question upon notice: -

I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the difficulties with public servants have in securing accommodation at Canberra, he will make an investigation to see whether it is possible to grant the allowances recently proposed for those who take up residence in the Federal Territory to those who may find it necessary to reside in the neighbouring town of Queanbeyan ?

To which I replied: -

The honorable member’s suggestion will receive consideration, but I point out to him that every possible step is being taken to provide accommodation for members of the Public Service at Canberra, as they are moved from the present seat of government.

I am now in a position to furnish the following information : -

The Public Service Board of Commissioners advise that the Canberra allowance was designed to meet conditions in the Federal Capital Territory, and the board is unable to recommend its application to any other locality.

page 949

QUESTION

WHITE SLAVE TRAFFIC

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– On the 14th March, the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) asked the following question, upon notice : -

Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to a paragraph in the press attributing to a certain individual the statement that the white slave traffic was in operation between North America and other countries, including Australia, and if there is no- truthin the assertion will the right honorable gentleman take early steps to refute it?

To whichI replied: -

My attention was drawn to the statement in the press, and I am having inquiries made into it.

I am now in a position to furnish the following information : -

No information is available to show that there is any organization attemping to introduce white slaves into Australia, but a few isolated cases have recently come under notice which are being carefully inquired into, and precautions are being taken with a view to preventing as far as possible the introduction of women into Australia for immoral purposes.

page 949

QUESTION

SMUGGLING PROSECUTIONS

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– On the 16th March, the honorable, member for Herbert (Dr. Nott) asked the following question . -

In connexion with the importation of passengers’ luggage, will he inform the House as to -

The number of recent successful prosecutions for smuggling, the value of the goods concerned, the number and amount of fines imposed, and what was done with the goods in question ; and

What stops are being taken to prevent a continuance of these fraudulent practices in connexion with the importation of passengers’ luggage from abroad ?

To which I replied: -

The information is being obtained.

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

Severalfurther prosecutions are being considered. Inquiries show that periodical visits are made by some visitors to the United Kingdom and the Continent, and it is stated the practice is becoming common for such passengers to smuggle goods, especially apparel, and claim such articles as their own personal effects.

  1. Arrangements are being made to institute a system under which oversea passengers will be required to subscribe a declaration with regard to dutiable goods contained in their personal luggage and/or household effects. This system will be brought into operation in the near future, and it is expected that it will have a very salutary effect.

page 949

QUESTION

OATS

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– On the 17th March, the honourable member for Darwin (Mr. Bell) asked the following questions: -

  1. What quantities of oats were imported into the Commonwealth during the six months ended 28th February, 1927 ?
  2. What were the countries- of export?

To which I replied : -

The information, is being obtained.

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

page 950

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Abandonment of Griffin Design

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · ECHUCA, VICTORIA · CP

– On the 18th March, the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) addressed the following questions to the Minister for Works and Railways : -

  1. Is it a fact that publicity is being given in the press in Sydney and elsewhere to statements that the Griffin plan of lay-out of the Federal Capital City has been abandoned, and that a composite plan consisting of a combination of several designs has been substituted?
  2. Has there been any such substitution or departure from the Griffin plan?

The following answers were then given : -

  1. The Government has no knowledge of such publicity.
  2. The information will be obtained and furnished for the information of the honorable member.

I am now in a position to inform the honorable member that the principle was laid down some years ago, and has since been observed, that the “ Griffin “ plan should not be departed from in any essential features. Minor amendments, which have not affected the general scheme, have been authorized from time to time.

page 950

QUESTION

EDUCATION OF EX-SOLDIERS’ CHILDREN

Mr MARR:
NAT

– On the18th March, the honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. D. Cameron) asked the Minister for Defence : -

  1. How many applications have been received cm behalf of the children of blinded exsoldiers for participation in the soldiers’ children educational scheme?
  2. How many applications have been approved ?

The replies to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. Four.
  2. One.

A number of inquiries have been received, but formal applications were not . actually made. In regard to the approved application referred to in (2), the soldier has additional disabilities which render him totally and permanently incapacitated. It might be explained that children of blinded soldiers are ineligible for benefits under the Repatriation Commission’s soldiers’ children education scheme unless the ex-soldier is suffering from an additional war-caused disability which, together with his blindness “ incapacitates him for life to such an extent as to be precluded from earning other than a negligible percentage of a living wage “ - i.e., is totally and permanently incapacitated.

page 950

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Australian Soldiers’ Repatriation Act - Report of the Repatriation Commission for the year ended the 30th June, 1926.

Canberra - Report dated the 23rd April, 1926, by a Committee appointed to report on the provision of University facilities at Canberra.

Norfolk Island - Report for the year ended the 30th June, 1926.

Railways Act - By-laws Nos. 43 and 44.

page 950

WINE EXPORT BOUNTY BILL

In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) -

Motion (by Mr. Pratten) agreed to -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to amend the Wine Export Bounty Act 1924.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Pratten and Mr. Latham do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill introduced by Mr. Pratten and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

I crave the indulgence of honorable members to allow me to put the position of the wine industry fairly and fully before them. It is proposed in this bill that for three years after the 31st August, when the payment of the present wine bounty will cease, the amount of the bounty payable shall be split up, to allow the average drawback unon the snirits used in fortifying wine, plus a bounty of ls. 9d. per gallon, to make a total payment of 3s. per gallon. The amount payable at present is 4s. per gallon. The Commonwealth has under vines at present about; 115,000 acres. Our total annual production of grapes is 250,000 tons, approximately half of which is converted into wine and snirits, the other half being used for table purposes and in the dried fruits industry. Our total annual production of wine is about 16,000,000 gallons. The amount of wine produced for export increased from 600,000 gallons of dry wine in 1921- 3922 to 1,635,000 gallons of dry and fortified wine in 1925-26. The quantities of wine on which bounty has been paid are as follow: - From 17 th September, 1924, to 30th June, 1925, 142,0S5 gallons ; from 1st July, J925, to 30th June, 1926, 1,085,545 gallons; and from 1st July, 1926, to 2Sth February, 1927, 1,163,430 gallons, making a total of 2,391,060 gallons. When the Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce) was moving the second reading of the Bounty Act of which this bill is an amendment, he stated that the measure was designed to render assistance to the grapegrowers of Australia, particularly the growers of the doradilla variety. The grape-growing industry in 1924 was in a parlous condition, and had no action been taken by this Parliament there can be little doubt that it would have suffered a severe, set back. Many soldier settlers, who have been placed by the State Governments on areas on which they were practically advised to grow doradilla grapes, were in a particularly critical position. The action taken by this Parliament in September, 1924, in providing for a bounty for three years on fortified wine exported from Australia, has had the effect intended by Parliament in passing the measure. There was at that time much speculation whether Australian fortified wine could find a ready market in London. The action taken has removed all doubt on the matter. Honorable members will find that in the short period of two years and five months from the 19th September, 1924, to the 28th February, 1927, a total of 2,391,060 gallons of fortified wine has been exported under the provisions of the Bounty Act. Our wines have found such a ready sale that it would appear that the London market can take practically all the fortified wine that we can make available at reasonable prices. Out of the estimated total of 16,000,000 gallons of wine made in Australia, about one-half is sweet fortified wine, of which from 1,250,000 to 1,500,000 gallons are now exported. In other words, a little more than one-sixth of the total quantity of fortified wine made in Australia is exported. I desire at the outset to inform honorable members of the position obtaining under the present act. As previously stated 2,391,060 gallons of fortified wine have been exported. The selling price, f.o.b.

Australian ports, was from ls. 6d. to 2s. a gallon, the average being about ls. lOd. without packages. The total export value of the wine was, therefore, approximately £219,000. The Government has paid in bounty the sum of £478,000, less excise duty paid, £149,375, making a net bounty of £328,625. Another point which should be stressed is that the original application which was granted was for a bounty of 4s. a gallon. At that time a duty of 4s. a gallon was payable in the United Kingdom on wine containing over 30 degrees of proof spirit. “When the Bounty Act was passed there appeared to be no likelihood of any further preference being immediately granted by Great Britain; otherwise there can be no doubt that a stipulation would have been imposed that, for any increase in the preference given by the United Kingdom, there would be some reduction in the amount of bounty granted under the act. From the 1st July, 1925 - ten months after the bounty came into operation - the British Government reduced the rate of duty on Australian wine of a strength of over 30 degrees by 2s. a gallon. This action gave our wine exporters nominally an additional advantage of 2s. a gallon in their trade with Great Britain. T<his important alteration might have justified an alteration of the bounty; but it was decided that it would be undesirable to reduce the rate of bounty during the remainder of the term of three years fixed by Parliament. A request is now made for a continuance of the 4s. bounty, notwithstanding that the industry has enjoyed additional preference in Great Britain since the passage of the act. It is interesting to note the different sale prices of the fortified wines manufactured here. For those of fair average quality the prices within Australia range from 6s. 6d. to Ss. 6d. a gallon. The prices at which similar quality wine is sold for export to New Zealand range from 5s. 3d. to 7s. 3d. a gallon. The difference in these prices, namely, ls. 3d. a gallon, represents the amount of drawback allowed on wine exported to New Zealand. By mutual arrangement with the exporters, no bounty is paid on wine shipped to New Zealand. The selling price to the United

Kingdom, however, ranges, as I have already said, from ls. 6d. to 2s., or an average of about ls. lOd. a gallon. I desire to be perfectly plain in regard to this bill. The Government is of the opinion that the industry itself is largely responsible for the very low prices received for its product. Owing to the generous bounty granted, exporters have been content to carry on their business under uneconomic conditions. This is obviously an unsatisfactory position. Experience has shown that, in the export of the products of our primary industries, it is almost impossible to build up a satisfactory export trade unless the industry undertakes its own organization. There has been a total absence of organization in connexion with the wine industry during the period of the present bounty. Exporters have been content to accept abnormally low prices. They have practically handed over their business to the representatives of London firms, who, according to evidence received by the Tariff Board, have made excellent profits out of the industry on the London market. During the course of the inquiry by the Tariff Board, evidence was given by a representative of one of the large London distributing houses that the cost to his firm of Australian fortified wine in bond in London was 3s. 6d. per gallon. The selling -price in bond of this wine was stated to be 5s. 6d. per gallon, so that the wholesale merchant in London received 2s. per gallon for his services in disposing of the wine. It was also stated that Australian fortified wine was sold on the London market at a retail price in bottle of 18s. to 22s. per gallon. It will be seen from these figures that the British wholesaler, whose transaction in connexion with the industry is comparatively small, obtains a greater amount - namely, 2s. per gallon - than the wine maker obtains for his wine f.o.b. Australia. Nothing could show more clearly the absolute necessity for organization, and the Government feels that it is imperative to insist upon the industry undertaking a thorough organization which will enable it to market in a manner similar to that under which the dried fruits and other industries are at present conducting their export business. The following remarks by a prominent Aus-

J/r. Pratten-. tralian vigneron are of interest in this connexion : -

It is our opinion that the Australian fortified wines are capable of competing with the main bulk of Portuguese wines of similar strength. Owing to inexpert methods in London, and indiscriminate selling from Australia, Australian wines fetch but little more than the prices of low strength Spanish or Lisbon wine. They have been offered to petty buyers “ all in “ at less than the duty alone on other wines of their strength and class. We submit the wines are worthy of a better fate. This could be achieved if they were sold by one organization in Australia and purchased and distributed to wholesalers by one concern in London; bath organizations should ‘be under expert technical management.

Mr Killen:

– Is that the opinion of an Australian vigneron?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Yes, of a very prominent Australian vigneron, who is a grower of grapes and a maker and exporter of wine. This expert further maintains that, if this method were adopted, the whole export surplus of Australian fortified wines could be disposed of at a price which would secure to the Australian producer an immediate and growing advantage in price. The Government feels that the experience of other industries has indisputably shown that proper organization will confer material benefits upon the wine makers and exporters, and that, subject to that action being taken, there should be little difficulty in the industry ultimately carrying on provided a drawback of the duty paid on the spirit contents of the exported wine is allowed.

Mr Fenton:

– Does the Minister mean to say that Australian makers of wine on a large scale have not organized methods of exporting?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The disorganized condition of the industry is handicapping the export of wine. Exporters are competing one against the other at the lowest possible prices, and so render it impossible for a fair market price to he obtained for the wine we send abroad. While the Government recognizes that the trade has practically obtained a footing on the London market, it is acknowledged that, during a process and period of reorganization, the industry will be subjected to certain changes, to some competition and, probably, to some additional expense. For that reason the Government proposes to extend the period of the Wine

Bounty, at a reduced rate, for a further term of three years, and expects a definite announcement that the representatives of tho industry will immediately undertake the proper organization of its export trade. The present disorganized state of the export trade is robbing Australia of a fair value for the wine she exports to the United Kingdom. I deny altogether the claim put forward in some quarters that the industry is entitled to a bounty to be paid out of the excise duties collected on the alcohol used in the fortification of the wine. This argument cannot be accepted as a justification for paying the bounty. Honorable members will agree that an excise duty on heavilyfortified wine is a legitimate form of revenue. Prior to the increase of the duty on fortifying spirits to 6s. per gallon consideration was given to the question whether an excise duty could not be collected on wine. When this was found to be impracticable it was decided to increase the duty on the spirit used in. fortifying wines. If the contention of the wine* exporters, that they are entitled to this excise duty, is correct there can be no objection to using the same argument in the case of other interests contributing largely to the revenue. We must logically admit the rights of tobacco growers, whisky makers, and beer brewers to obtain the excise they pay to further the interests of their particular industries. As Ls well known this duty is paid by the wine drinkers of Australia, and not by the wine makers, who have no right whatever to the return of revenue they do not actually pay. In other words, the wine maker recoups himself from the customers to whom he sells the wine, and at the same time attempts to establish a claim for a second payment from the Treasury.

Mr Fenton:

– What was the amount of the excise?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The excise collected on the alcohol used in the fortification of wine amounted in 1923-24 to approximately £282,000, in 1924-25 to £333,000, and in 1925-26 to £477,000. The increase from .the first to the third year practically balances the increase in the export of fortified wines under the Wine Bounty Act. In recompense of the excise they pay, the wine-makers of Australia have under the in riff assured to them the absolute mono poly of the Australian market. There is no industry under the tariff more highly protected than the wine industry, and yet it would appear that they object, when they place upon the market wine heavily fortified by spirit, to contributing some quota to the general revenue that is paid by consumers. On 3weet wine imported into Australia the duty is 14s. per gallon. The local wine sells in Australia for f rom 6s. 6d. to 8s. 6d. per gallon. The duty on the spirit contained in the Australian fortified wine amounts to only ls. 3d. per gallon. I remind honorable members of the action taken to obtain for the wine exporter a favorable overseas market. Preference for wine has been obtained in the United Kingdom, Canada, and New Zealand. The extent of the preferences are: - In the United Kingdom, sweet wine not exceeding 30 deg., ls. per gallon; sweet wine over 30 deg., 4s. per gallon ; in Canada, on wine not exceeding 34 deg., 2s. 3d. per gallon and 30 per cent, ad valorem; in New Zealand, a preference of 2s. per gallon. Representations were made during an inquiry into the industry on behalf of the dried fruits section that the full bounty of 4s. per gallon should be continued in the interests of that section. Prior to the passing of the Wine Bounty Act very little fortified wine was exported ; therefore, only a limited demand existed for surplus dried fruits for the manufacture of fortifying spirit. Since the operation of the bounty, however, the export of fortified wine has materially increased, with the result that there has been, an ever growing demand for fresh and dried fruit for wine and spirit making. In my opinion, sufficient stress was not laid upon the fact that every effort has been put forth by this Parliament to encourage the producer of dried fruits to obtain the most profitable market for his product both in Australia and overseas. The tariff has reserved the Australian market to the local producer for Australian raisins and currants, and preferences granted by Great Britain and Canada, and, I hope, New Zealand in the near future, must also assist the export trade. In addition to this, action has been taken by the Government to help in the organization of the industry which has led to much benefit to the producer. In view of the action of the Government in this regard, and especially the appointment of the Dried Fruits Export Control Board, it is not considered that any plea on behalf of the dried fruits industry should lead to the maintenance of the bounty on wine as a special form of assistance to the dried fruits industry. I admit that if the old rate of wine bounty were continued, the tendency of grape-growers would naturally be to divert their grapes from the dried fruit industry to that of making fortified wine.

Mr Foster:

– With the industrial conditions now obtaining, that is the only hope for .the continuance of the industry.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The quantity of fortified wine exported is only 1,500,000 gallons per annum out of a total production of 16,000,000 gallons, so it is ridiculous to say that the wine bounty is essential to the salvation of the dried fruits industry. It must be remembered that this bounty was given as a temporary expedient, and we do not want the diversion of the grapes from the dried fruit industry, as the result would be one never contemplated by this House. The question has arisen whether there should be an alteration in the present excise duty on spirits distilled from the juice of fresh doradilla grapes. I remind honorable members that, in addition to the Bounty Act, this House passed a special item in the excise tariff imposing a. duty of 5s. per proof gallon on spirit distilled from the juice of fresh doralilla grapes. The excise duty on spirit distilled from all other grapes is 6s. per proof gallon. The object of that was further to assist the growers of doradilla grapes by providing an incentive to the distillers to use such grapes in the manufacture of spirit, and also to encourage wine-makers to use such spirit for fortifying their wines. There can be no question that that provision has been fully justified. Honorable members are aware that the doradilla grapes can be used only for the manufacture of spirit, whereas Gordos and currants are usually produced for drying purposes. The surplus of these two classes of dried fruits is utilized by the distilleries for manufacture into spirit for fortifying purposes. The position, therefore, is that fresh currants can be used for producing dried fruits or spirit. Gordos can be used in the manu- facture of spirit, wine, or dried fruits, doradilla grapes can be used only in the manufacture of spirit. Honorable members will realize, if currants and Gordos are put on an equal footing, as regards excise, with the doradilla grapes, the unsatisfactory position of the doradilla growers existing when the House first considered this matter will recur. It cannot be too strongly stressed that the doradilla grower has only one outlet for his grapes, and that should, as far as possible, be assured to him; especially is this necessary when it is remembered that about 30,000 tons of doradilla grapes ere produced annually, mainly by soldier settlers placed by the State Governments on small blocks planted with doradilla vines. The Government, therefore, has no intention of altering the present incidence of the excise duty, by which an advantage of ls. per gallon is granted to spirit made from doradilla grapes. The proposal of the Government is therefore that the rate of bounty of 4s. per gallon, including the excise duty paid upon the spirit used in fortifying the wine, should be readjusted, and that a drawback of approximately ls. 3d. per gallon be given to the exporter, as is usually done on the exportation of any goods under drawback conditions, and that the net wine bounty be reduced to ls. 9d. per gallon. Honorable members will naturally ask why such a generous bounty as ls. 9d. per gallon is being paid. From the figures I- have already given as to the selling price f.o.b. Australian port, ls. 9d. represents practically 100 per cent, of the selling price of the wine. The Government frankly admits that this is an exceedingly generous amount, but it is felt that the industry will be involved in some work and expense in organizing its marketing arrangements in Australia and the United Kingdom, and the Government proposes to allow a period of three years, during which such organization must take place. Under these conditions, the Government proposes a bounty of ls. 9d. per gallon, and expects the representatives of the industry immediately to undertake its thorough organization. In this way they will be assisted by my honorable colleague, the Minister for Markets and Migration. It is to be distinctly understood that if, during the term of the bounty, the British Govern- ment gives an additional preference on Australian sweet wine, the Government reserves the right to submit to this House that the bounty now proposed be reduced by the amount of the additional preference given. I should like to explain, for the information of honorable members, the procedure adopted in regard to theexamination of wine prior to export. When the exporter intends to ship wine he notifies the Department. An. officer thereupon attends at the exporter’s premises, verifies the quantity, takes samples of the wine, and delivers the wine for transport under Customs control to the ship. The samples are then examined by the analyst in regard to strength and quality, and are also submitted for examination by independent experts. These precautions ensure that no bounty is paid unless the wine is of good and merchantable quality. It has been found necessary in a few cases to refuse bounty owing to the defective quality of the wine, although wine had been shipped. This led to some dissatisfaction. Every effort is made to examine the samples before shipment, but effective action in this respect is difficult owing to the fact that the wine is frequently delivered for shipment a very short time before the departure of the exporting vessel. It must, however, be recognized that the responsibility of complying with the Act in regard to quality lies entirely upon the exporter, who is naturally in a position to know definitely the quality of the wine he is shipping. Honorable members will see that the bill gives power to the Minister to protect, as far as possible, the interests of the grape-growers in connexion with any grapes that are used in the wine and spirits exported under the provisions of this measure. Power is given in the present act to protect the interests of doradilla grape-growers only, and although there will be many difficulties of administration and many complexities in connexion with the proposed extended authority, the Government considers that some reserve power is necessary to prevent, as far as possible, unfair treatment of the grower.

Apart from these two features - the alteration in the rate of bounty and the adjustment of excise, and the extended powers given to enable the balance to be held fairly between exporters and growers - the bill merely proposes an extension of the existing act for three years. The other provisions are consequential. I submit the bill to the House as embodying the well-considered conclusions of the Government.

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

.- When the bill providing for a wine export bounty was before the House in 1924, if I remember rightly, it was unanimously supported by Parliament; but I wish to draw the attention of the House to a serious flaw in the policy of the Government. I am raising no objection to the bounty on wine. The Labour party has always supported the encouragement of Australian industry ; but we have a duty to perform. When public moneys are expended we must see that we obtain the best results therefrom. Whatever mistakes may have been made in the past, their continuance cannot be justified, because we have had three years’ experience of this bounty. Proposals have been placed before the Government by the representatives of the dried fruits industry, in support of the continuation of the wine bounty, but in addition, they have asked for a bounty on exported dried fruits. I wish to show that we could have lifted the dried fruit industry out of its present parlous position without any extra expenditure. Regarding the suggested bounty on exported dried fruit*, I indicated my views on that subject in a few words yesterday when dealing with the Dried Fruits Export Charges Bill. I pointed out then, and I wish to repeat now, that this House is under an obligation to the dried fruit-growers, because the position that they are in is due to our action in deliberately extending the area under vines for dried fruit purposes by the establishment of soldier settlements. I believe that the settlement at Red Cliffs is the largest soldier settlement in the world. The industry is certainly ideal for soldier settlement. Last year the honorable member for Wimmera invited a number of honorable members to visit the Mildura, Merbein, and Red Cliffs settlements to gain a first-hand knowledge of the industry. The honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) and myself accepted the invitation, and spent an interesting and busy week investigating the conditions at those places. We came back impressed with the fact that the industry must continue, because it is too important andhas developed too far to be allowed to die out. It is very easy for an honorable member in this House to say, “Let them cut out lexias and grow vines that are profitable.” The settlers are doing that, but they can only do it gradually. They have no large reserves of money to carry them over a short period of conversion, and although their present crop is unprofitable it is better than nothing. Most of the settlers are in debt, and the question is what are we going to do for them in the next three or five years during the process of substituting sultanas for lexias. We are under an obligation to them, and therefore there is some justification for a bounty on the export of dried fruits,, considering that their great surplus for export, which is sold at a loss, is due to the action of Federal and State Governments in establishing settlements to increase the output. Nobody will challenge that. Three years ago the Government introduced awine export bounty bill to save thegrowers of doradilla grapes. Its object was not to subsidize the wineries or distilleries of this country, but to save the growers of doradilla grapes, and, as such, it received our support. The Prime Minister made it clear that doradillas could only be used for the manufacture of spirits, and that, therefore, a bounty mustbe given to distilleries or wineries in order to assist the industry indirectly. The price that was then being paid to growers of grapes was ridiculously small, and as a result of the bounty it has: increased considerably. There was a provision in the act to compel the wineries to. pay a certain price, but that applied only to- the growers of doradillas. That condition, did not apply to the growers of other grapes, but it has had that indirect eff ect, and to that extent the growers of grapes that can be utilized for dried fruits-, have benefited-. But they have benefited at the expense’ of this country in a way that has cost us, proportionately,more. The bounty has. cost us, up to date, £478,000, and no one contemplated that it would approach that sum. An excise duty of £150,000 was paid on the extra spirit, so the net bounty paid from the Treasury was £328,000. What have we received for that? Did the growers, the only people that we were out to assist, get the full return ? No. They received £6 10s. a ton of fresh fruit. The bounty at 4s. a gallon amounted to £14 13s. a ton for fresh fruit, so that the growers did not receive even half the bounty paid.

Mr Atkinson:

– They received the amount stipulated.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I am not challenging that. This House passed the act toassist the growers only, and we should endeavour to see that they get the full, bounty or as near as possible to it. The growers received an increase of about £3 a ton, or a total of £6 10s. a ton of fresh fruit, yet the bounty paid was £14 l3s. a ton.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Is- the honorable member referring to doradillas only?

Mr SCULLIN:

– I shall in a moment explain to the Minister the way in which I have arrived at my figures. In 1926 there were 1,400,000’ gallons of wine in excess of any previous year, so that thebounty has unquestionably stimulatedthe production of wine. This was due,, not to any record crop, but to the fact that the wine bounty was being paid, and had encouraged the manufacture of wine. One would have no quarrel with, that- if it were not for this serious development. The bounty on wine encouraged the growers to send their grapes to the wineries and distilleries, because the price was better than that for driedfruits. Beautiful fruit that should have been dried and exported was sent to thedistilleries.

Mr Foster:

– And the growers: saved’ all the cost of drying.

Mr SCULLIN:

– The honorable member has strengthened my point. It is estimated that approximately 20,000. torn of currants’ and grapes that should have been dried were sent to the wineries and distilleries. This movement will develop, and proposals are already on foot for the erection of new distilleries and wineries. That is now the only way. in which the growers can get a profitable market for their surplusfruit. I ask honorable members to see how uneconomic it is, from our point of view, to continue the bounty merely to convert, not only doradilla grapes into wine, but other grapes that are suitable for dried fruits. A ton of fresh grapes will make 731/4 gallons of fortified wine for export. The bounty paid on that amounts to 4s. a gallon,, making £14 13s. a ton offresh fruit.

Tho excise revenue from 17 gallons of proof spirit required in the 73£ gallons of fortified wine is £5 2s., leaving a net cost of the bounty to the community of £9 lis. a ton of fresh grapes. It takes 3£ tons of fresh fruit to make 1 ton of dried fruit, therefore the net bounty of £9 lis. a ton of fresh fruit multiplied by 3$ would make the bounty equivalent to £33 8s. 6d. to a ton of dried fruits. Yet the growers tell us that if they had a bounty of £10 a ton on their exported lexias and currants the industry would be relieved of its difficulty. We are paying a wine bounty equivalent to £33 8s. 6d. a ton on dried fruit. Tins fruit, although suitable for drying, is turned into wine.

Mr Brennan:

– The bounty is actually draining instead of fortifying the dried fruit industry

Mr SCULLIN:

– The bounty has, indirectly, assisted the dried fruit industry, but I am pointing out that for the same expenditure we could have given the growers infinitely greater assistance without interfering with the wine industry at all.

Mr Foster:

– How could that be done ?

Mr SCULLIN:

– By giving bounties to both industries. Let me show honorable members what the position would ha.ve been if there had. been no diversion of grapes suitable for drying. Take the 20,000 tons of fresh fruit that it is estimated was diverted to the wineries and distilleries, and could have been dried. The net bounty cost is £9 lis. a ton, after allowing for the excise duty. The sum of £14 13s. is the total bounty, less the excise on spirit of £5 2s. Two thousand tons at £9 lis. totals £191,000. Twenty thousand tons of fresh fruit would have made 5,714 tons of dried fruits, and a bounty of £10 a ton on that dried fruit would have cost the country only £57,140, as against a payment by means of a wine bounty of £191,000 on the same quantity of fruit. Those are striking figures that ought to be carefully examined.

Mr Foster:

– It would be necessary to make sure that the growers could sell their dried fruits.

Mr SCULLIN:

– They can unquestionably sell them abroad, but not at a price for lexias and currants that will show them a profit. The men in the industry are well satisfied that, with a bounty of £10 a ton, they can sell their dried fruits at a profit.

Dr Earle Page:

– Increasing the quantity of dried fruits on the market by 5,000 tons would tend to depress the price still further.

Mr SCULLIN:

– It is not proposed to increase the amount, but merely to maintain the output. Does the Treasurer contend that that point justifies the difference between paying £57,000 and £191,000? As a matter of fact, the £191,000 that was paid on 20,000 tons of fresh grapes, would have provided a bounty of £10 a ton on the whole of the eport of lexias and currants and have left a big margin in the Treasury. In other words, had the Government learned the lesson that its experience of the past three years should have taught it, it would have declared against the policy of diverting fruit suitable for tho table into wine and spirit. To divert fruit in that way is surely not the object of paying the bounty; the object is not to increase the output of wine and spirit, but to guarantee a profitable price to the growers of doradilla grapes. If the cost of paying the bounty on the 20,000 tons of fruit diverted to wine-making had been paid on the export of dried fruit, the industry would have been on a good footing to-day, instead of being in a very serious predicament.

Mr Foster:

– The growers would not have been able to find a market for their dried fruits.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I disagree entirely with the honorable member. The men who are marketing the fruit to-day, and have a greater knowledge and a wider experience of the business than the honorable member, also disagree with him.

Mr Foster:

– Theirs is the opinion I am quoting ; I do not pretend to know anything about the business myself.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I have in front of me a report by Mr. Oakley, of the Tariff Board, and a printed statement by the Australian Dried Fruits Association. Mr. Oakley comments on the statement and on the case as presented to the Tariff Board and the Government by the representatives of the growers. Every point about that I am trying to make is included in the case they put forward. I am not pretending to be an expert; but

I have examined the case as presented, and I lay some claim to be able to understand plain English and plain figures. If the representatives of the industry say that they can market their dried fruits in good condition, but not at a price that will pay them, unless they have the assistance of the bounty, I am prepared to accept their statement. The statements made about this industry by the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. Manning), which are similar to other statements made by him since his trip abroad, ought to be challenged. It is the duty of an honorable mem-: ber who goes abroad to look for any difficulties that stand in the way of marketing Australian produce. It is his duty to find out whether our produce arrives in good or bad condition, and to report the result of his investigations to the proper authority; but it is not his duty to rise in this House and decry the credit of Australia. What has happened to the Australian dried fruit industry in the London market. The fact is that the deliberate propaganda of foreign interests has been depreciating our fruit. There has been, for instance, a lot of talk about grubs in Australian currants. Over a period of ten years I handled Australian and Greek currants, and while I have never seen grubs in Australian currants, I have never seen a’ case of Greek currants without them.

Mr Gibson:

– The honorable member’s statement is quite correct.

Mr SCULLIN:

– It would be difficult to find one grocer or merchant to deny that statement. It should be admitted, in fairness to the Greek and Australian growers, that the conditions of transport have a deleterious effect on the fruit; but the fact remains that Australian currants are the cleanest on the market. Odd cases may be affected, but because of that honorable members ought not to join in decrying Australian fruit. Regarding lexias, it is true that we have a good grape, rich in sugar, which, after being transported through the Red Sea to Europe, sometimes arrives in faulty condition. That, however, is not the rule; it is the exception to the rule. Time and again it has been pointed out that the fruit has arrived in good condition. We can export lexias, and we can place them in a satisfactory condition on the London market, but not at a price that will compete with the produce of the sweated labour of other countries. Surely the corollary of protecting an industry is the placing of it in the position of having an enormous export surplus. I do not say that we should lay it down as a definite rule that we should build up an industry by protection until it has a huge surplus to export, and should then pay a bounty on that surplus. That is not an economic idea. In the fruit industry we have already created an export surplus amounting, in the case of lexias and currants, to 70 per cent, of the total output. Before the settling of returned soldiers on the land the exportable surplus was about 20 per cent, of the output. Parliament, rightly or wrongly, increased that surplus, and, therefore, we ought not now to say to the growers, “ Having put you on the land we leave you without assistance to market your crop, the bulk of which has to be sent abroad.” They were advised, by State and Federal experts, as to the kind of vines they should plant. If ever there was a definite obligation placed on this Parliament, it is the obligation to step in now and give these men the assistance they want. We can do that without spending any more money on the industry than we spent last year. The statements and figures in support of the growers’ case have been carefully checked by the representatives of the growers, the wineries, and the distilleries, and they have not been challenged. I wish to admit every point that can be conceded in favour of the Minister’s case, and I, therefore, admit that the reduction of the bounty may have the tendency to counteract the diversion of the fruit; but that remains to be seen. What was the inducement to divert the fruit to the wineries and distilleries? The return for dried lexias and currants to the growers averaged about £20 a ton, and the fresh fruit sent to the wineries and distilleries returned £6 10s. a ton. As 3£ tons of fresh fruit is required to make a ton of dried fruit, the return from the fresh fruit was equivalent to £22 15s. per ton of dried fruit. By sending their fruit to the wineries the growers were saved the expense of drying, which is considerable, but is offset, to some extent, by the extra cost of carting green as against dried fruit. There is also the inconvenience of having to rush the crop to the wineries in the busiest period of the year. The growers obtained that return only because the wine bounty raised the price to £6 10s. a ton. Before the payment of the bounty they would have had no inducement to divert the fruit in that way. The only currants or lexias turned into spirit or wine, before the payment of the bounty, were those that were not suitable for drying. The fact that there was an increase in the quantity of fruit converted into wine and spirit, without a corresponding increase in the crop, shows clearly that good fruit, suitable for drying, was turned into wine and spirit. I gather that Mr. Oakley is definitely impressed that the position should be investigated. We ought to continue the wine bounty, and also give a bounty on the export of lexias and currants. The wine industry has not developed in Victoria to the same extent as it has in. South Australia.

Mr Foster:

– ‘And that accounts for the difference between the views of the growers in the two States.

Mr SCULLIN:

– My impression is that there is no conflict between the opinions of the growers in the two States. Even the growers in South Australia can see that, if the wine bounty has the effect of diverting to the wineries and distilleries, each year increased quantities of grapes that would otherwise be dried, and piling up the cost of the wine bounty, the time will come when the bounty will cease to be paid, because the community will refuse to continue it. The growers foresee that wineries and distilleries built up by bounties will not be able to continue operations without bounties. But we cannot go on for ever increasing the bounties and so diverting our fruit to the wineries and distilleries when it should be dried, and marketed in that form. I freely admit that this bounty has put the doradilla growers in South Australia on their feet, ‘ and I am prepared that they should still be helped; but there are other branches of the fruitgrowing industry. Last year at Mildura 1,400 tons of dried currants and lexias were sent to the distilleries and converted into spirits.

Mr Blakeley:

– I saw 10 tons of beautiful currants go to a distillery for 1/2 d per lb., to be used for whisky making.

Mr SCULLIN:

– It is the only way the growers concerned oan obtain any advantage from the bounty. I urge the Government to make arrangements to pay a bounty direct to these growers. The dried fruit industry employs more men in comparison with its size than any other primary industry that we have, and its wages and conditions are fixed by our Arbitration Court. About 20,000 acres of land were producing lexias ‘and currants in Australia last year. We cannot talk lightly of grubbing these vines out in a single season; it is a- question whether we should destroy them at all. The fortunes of Mildura have varied considerably since its establishment years ago. At one time sultan as were not reckoned to be worth very much ; but now the man who has his whole orchard under sultanas is in a happy position. The lexia and currant vines help to make the river irrigation areas in Victoria and South Australia a picture, and we should hesitate before we root them out. If the work has to be done it should be done on scientific lines, otherwise we may cause this beautiful country to revert to the arid and waterless Mallee which it was a few years ago. We should consider carefully bow we may best expend our public money in stimulating this industry and building it up on sound lines’. We should not bank wholly on sultana vines and citrus trees. The deplorable condition of the dried fruits industry at present is due to various governments settling: returned soldiers on fruit producing blocks. When the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) and myself were in Mildura some little time ago we met quite a number of working men who formerly lived itf Richmond and other inner suburbs of Melbourne. While these men were abroad on war service they had their outlook widened, and made up their mind that if possible they would go on the land after they returned to Australia. They were assisted to do so, and are now living under ideal conditions; but, unfortunately, their financial position is very straitened. I appeal to the Government to give them a. fair deal. Ninety-five per cent, of them desire to work their own blocks and employ outside help only in the picking season, and they greatly resent the action of a few wealthy producers in bringing large numbers of Southern Europeans . and other foreigners on to their holdings. Our returned men fear that these foreigners, working on the share system, -will destroy the standard of living in the irrigation areas, and they look to the Government to prevent that from happening. I urge the Government to consider the claims of these men and enable them to hold on to their blocks and develop them in the interests of Australia.

Mr COOK:
Indi

.- I regret that the Government has seen fit to reduce the wine bounty. Its action is the more regrettable on account of the money for the bounty being provided by the industry itself. As the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) has stated, many of the men settled on our irrigation areas are returned soldiers, and we should be doing our utmost to assist them to make good. In consequence of the developments that have occurred in the wine industry in Australia in recent years, Australian wines, which formerly were almost disregarded on the world’s markets, have now won a prominent place, and it is freely admitted that we produce perhaps the choicest port wine in the world. Surely the fruit-growing industry is entitled to the same measure of protection as other primary and secondary industries. Had the honorable member for Yarra used his oratorical powers to state the case from this point of view his appeal would still have been effective in every sense of the word. I ask leave to continue my remarks later.

Leave granted ; debate adjourned .

page 960

JUDICIARY BILL

Second Reading

Mr. LATHAM (Kooyong- Attorney-

General) [12.55]. - I move -

That this bill be now read a second time.

The object of the bill is to provide for the exercise of thejudicial power of the Commonwealth at Canberra. Certain provision was made in the Seat of Government Acceptance Act and the Seat of Government Administration Act for this to be done, but there is no machinery to bring those provisions into operation. This bill provides that the High Court shall discharge in the territory of the Seat of Government the functions exercised in a State by a Supreme

Court. It is to have unlimited jurisdiction as a supreme court, and as such it will be able to entertain claims of all descriptions. Provision is also made for the court to make rules of procedure. Ordinances may be made to give a right of appeal from the court of summary jurisdiction which is to be established in the territory, to the High Court.. Under the present arrangement the judicial machinery of New South “Wales functions in the Federal Capital Territory, but it is felt that it would not be proper, when Canberra becomes the Seat of Government, for all civil and criminalpleas to be determined by the courts of New South Wales. It is for this reason that provision is made in this bill for the establishment there, by ordinance, of a court of summary jurisdiction, and for the High Court to discharge in the Territory the functions which a Supreme Court discharges in a State. No provision is made for the establishment of country or district courts as that does not appear to be necessary. Provision is also made for a registry of the High Court at Canberra.

Sitting suspended from. 1 to 2 p.m.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- The bill has been sufficiently explained in the short speech by the Attorney-General (Mr. Latham). During the luncheon adjournment I have taken an opportunity to glance through it, and I find that it provides for slight modifications of the judiciary laws rendered necessary by the early transfer of the Seat of Government from Melbourne to Canberra. I notice that the High Court, like legislators, is a little timid about the possibility of too long a residence in one stretch at Canberra. One of the provisions of the measure is that the principal registry shall not be precipitately established in the new Federal Capital. The clause gives full and complete civil and criminal jurisdiction in Canberra to the High Court, and, apparently, amongst other things, sanctions the appointment of local magistrates. It also confers upon the registrar the power, somewhat alarming, perhaps, to legal practitioners, to strike them off the roll. The Minister is no doubt anxious to have the measure passed as soon as possible, and, as there is apparently nothing in it of a contro- versial character, I offer no objection to the second reading.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

page 961

WINE EXPORT BOUNTY BILL

Second Reading

Resumption of debate (vide page 960).

Mr COOK:
Indi

.- Prior to the luncheon adjournment I drew attention to the great importance of the wine industry of Australia. The possibilities of expansion are tremendous. Great Britain in 1924-25 imported 17,868,818 gallons of. wine, of which 8,522,893 gallons consisted of sweet wine, principally of an inferior grade, from Portugal and Spain, and considerably under-proof. Australia had practically no hold on the overseas market until the wine bounty was introduced; but last year Great Britain took 1,054,460 gallons of our wine, which represented an increase of 100 per cent. I am prepared to give to this industry the same measure of protection that I desire to extend to all industries, both primary and secondary. Over £18,000,000 is invested in the wine industry in South Australia alone ; I have not the figures before me for Victoria and other States. Excise duty to the amount of over £2,000,000 has been paid on wine exports during the last two years. Considering the amount of employment that the industry now affords, largely as theresult of the action of the Parliament in granting the bounty, we should be prepared to assist it in every reasonable way. The honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) said that the bounty paid on wine exported was equivalent to a price to the grape grower of £14 a ton. but where, I ask, would there, be a market for grapes at such a high figure? At times certain growers in the Rutherglen district have not troubled to gather portions of their crops, owing to the low prices received. Doradillos have been sold at as low as £2 a ton; but under the bounty the price has increased to as much as £6 10s. a ton. Choice varieties have commanded as much as from £8 to £11 a ton, proving conclusively that the granting of the bounty has had most beneficial results. In some instances the growers have benefited to a greater extent than the wine-makers. I am not in accord with the remarks of the honorable member for Yarra regarding the dried fruit industry, although I am prepared to render all possible assistance to place it on a fair footing. Recently it has received a substantial measure of protection through the establishment of the Dried Fruits Export Control Board and, as the Minister explained last night, it has been placed on a considerably improved basis. I regret that the wine bounty is to bo reduced from 4s. to 3s. a gallon. It would be disastrous to delay the decision on the bill pending a further inquiry into the matter. We should do all in our power to assist the dried fruits industry, which has over 20,000 acres under cultivation with lexias and currants, and in which about 15,000 producers are engaged. The wine bounty was paid from the 17th February, 1924, tothe 28th February, 1927, on 2,391,060 gallons, and the grape production increased from 113,483 tons in 1915-16 to 238,194 tons in 1924-25. The area under cultivation increased during the same period from 62,124, acres to 114,394 acres. From 1920-21 to 1924-25 the production of wine increased from 11,104,220 gallons to 13,299,290 gallons. Those figures conclusively show the benefit derived from the bounty, and since the British market for Australian wines is practically unlimited, the industry has a bright future. The excise paid on spirits used in the fortification of wines amounted to £238,125 in 1921-22; £255,302 in 1922- 23; £282,323 in 1923-24; £233,729 in 1924-25, and £428,113 in 1925-26. The increase in 1925 over 1924 amounted to £51,407, and in 19,26 the increase over 1925 was £145,791. The figures bear eloquent testimony to the good effect of the bounty. It has been stated that there is a danger of over-production ; but there is no sign of it yet, seeing that Australia exports only 1,000,000 gallons out of a total production of 17,000,000 gallons. Should over-production occur, any necessary action can be taken by the Parliament. I hope that the House will pass the bill immediately. In the event of the dried fruits industry asking for similar assistance, the committee of experts could submit a concrete scheme to which earnest consideration should be given.

Mr FOSTER:
Wakefield

.- I regret that this important measure has been brought down in the last few hours of the session. The matter has been under consideration for nearly twelve months, and for the last six months it has been a burning issue. Since this is a money bill, it is useless for a private member to attempt to restore the amount of the bounty to 4s. ; but I wish to correct a wrong impression that honorable members not familiar with the industry may have gathered. With every justification I contend that the money appropriated for the payment of the wine bounty is money collected as excise, and may be said to be drawn from the blood and muscle of the poor fellows on the Murray, who for the last few years have had an exceedingly bad time. The excise was first introduced with the object of covering the cost of the inspection of distilleries. It was first fixed at 4d., and later at 8d. per gallon. As the industry extended, the excise duty was raised to ls. per gallon. It remained at that figure until, for war purposes, when the Commonwealth was in an extremely difficult financial position, it was raised to 3s., and later to 6s. per gallon. Were it not for the conditions I have indicated it is probable that this excise duty, if it were imposed at all, would be fixed at a very low rate. By expending in the shape of bounty every penny of the excise collected, we could be assured, in view of the fact that there is a great future for the export of wine, particularly to the United Kingdom, and the magnificent developmental work which the payment of the bounty has encouraged and promoted, of an unparalleled return for our expenditure in the progress and development of the Commonwealth. During the last twelve months we exported as much wine as we had exported for eight or ten years previously. The industry is to-day in a condition of progressive development, and the best authorities tell us that there is every reason to believe that it will continue to succeed, until possibly we shall find that our production will be insufficient to meet the demand of the London market. For the promotion of primary production, no other form of assistance passed by this House can be compared with that given to the wine industry. The honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) referred to the effect of the wine export bounty on the industry for the production of lexias and currants, two products which it is almost impossible to sell abroad at anything like the cost of production. Under the best conditions the export sales of lexias and currants are scarcely sufficient to keep body and soul together for the growers. Were it not for the big increase in the exports of wine due to the bounty, the condition of the growers of lexias and currants would be as deplorable to-day as it was a couple of years ago. Under existing conditions, they have been sending their products to the distilleries as dried fruits, but this year nearly the whole of their crop will be sent to the distilleries as fresh fruits, thus saving enormous cost in treating and drying to produce dried fruits. I agree with the honorable member for Yarra that the winy export bounty may be considered to be as successful applied to the dried fruits industry as it has proved to be in connexion with the export of wine. It would be infinitely better if, side by side with the development of the export of wine, we developed the export of lexias and currants. This would be possible with efficient organization, but without the Government interfering in the control of the business in any way. When governments meddle in such matters, they always make a mess of them.

Mr Mann:

– The honorable member seems to me to be advocating government interference.

Mr FOSTER:

– I am supporting a proposal to provide the sinews of war for primary producers, who should know best how to run their own business.

Mr Blakeley:

– The honorable member is advocating the socialization of industry.

Mr FOSTER:

– If so, I am advocating a very much better brand of Socialism than that which the honorable member advocates. I want to direct attention to the enormous increase in our exports of wine. Officers of the Tariff Board and of the Trade and Customs Department are of the opinion that the increase in these exports for next year will be equal to that for the last eighteen months. If that expectation is realized, and if, by a concentrated effort on the improvement, t f organization, here and abroad, we could secure half the profits of the dealers on the other side of the world, the rate of bounty now proposed might be considered handsome, and possibly the industry could be continued successfully independent of any bounty. I know that the manufacturers of wine for export are not making fortunes at the present time. They are carrying on their export business on the lowest possible margin. They would not continue to carry it on but for the confident expectation that very soon the demand for their products abroad will increase to such an extent as to tax all their resources. They believe that they will then be able to recoup much of the money they are really losing, and not making, to-day in the business. It is possible that the industry may shortly benefit as the result of a greater degree of preference being given to our products by Great Britain. The growth of feeling in favour of dominion preference is not confined to any particular section in the British Parliament. There appears to be a general realization that the policy represents the right attitude for Great Britain to adopt towards the dominions. The extension of this policy may shortly render it possible for this industry to be continued unimpaired, even with the low rate of bounty. I regret that the Government did not offer .at least another 6d. by way of bounty. It would certainly have done’ so if the Minister for Trade arid Customs were as generous in dealing with this industry, as by a soaring tariff which delights his soul, he has been in dealing with other industries, many of which are less deserving of support than that now under consideration.

Mr STEWART:
Wimmera

.- I rise at some disadvantage to speak on this bill, because I did not hear the speech of the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Pratten) in introducing it. I gather from the clauses of the bill that the export bounty on wine is to be continued for three years, but that the rate is to be reduced from 4s. to ls. 9d. per gallon.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Plus ls. 3d. drawback.

Mr STEWART:

– Which makes the actual reduction from 4s. to 3s. per gallon. The payment of the wine-export bounty has been of great benefit to the wine industry. I do not think that the industry could have carried on during the last two or three years without it. The chief object in the introduction of the measure was to come to the assistance of the growers of doradilla grapes. The bounty has led to a large quantity of lexias and currants being used in the manufacture of proof spirit for the fortification of wine for export. It is admitted by the departmental officers that lexias and currants are produced at a loss for the purpose of export as dried fruits, and they are being diverted in increasing tonnage to the manufacture of spirit for the fortification of wine. It is possible that this development will increase to such an extent that lexias and currants produced in Australia will cease to be exported, and will be used for local consumption. I am sorry that I did not hear the speech of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, but I understand that he advocated an export bounty upon lexias and currants, so that they may be sent abroad as dried fruits instead of being used for the manufacture of fortifying spirit. I strongly support that request, and ask the Minister to state the Government’s intentions in that regard. The overwhelming majority of the growers is in favour of that course. They say that, as the Government has by legislative enactment increased their cost of production in order to help other industries, they, in turn, are entitled to assistance from this Parliament. The honorable member for Wakefield referred to the tariff; he has consistently advocated that the Government should leave private enterprise alone, and he was twitted by the honorable member for Darling with having advocated government interference in the dried fruits industry. The honorable member is hardly as inconsistent as his critic would lead the House to believe, because, had the. Government left this industry alone, it would not now be forced to come to Parliament for assistance. The high tariff has increased the cost of living and production, and the growers say that, the Parliament having adopted a policy of artificial stimulation for other industries, should logically help them with a bounty, which would enable them to withstand the high cost of production. The Development and Migration Commission recently commenced an inquiry into the dried fruits industry, and I assume that within the ambit of that investigation will come the request for a bounty. I am hopeful that the result of the inquiry will be to awaken the Government to a clearer perception of the justice of the growers’ claim to some form of bounty that will enable them to get for their product the cost of production. The fact cannot be too often or too strongly emphasized that they cannot continue to pay Australian costs of production in respect of 100 per cent, of their produce, and receive Australian prices for 20 to 25 per cent., and the world’s market prices for the balance. Wrapped up with the dried fruits industry is the whole problem of developing the Murray valley. If the word “ failure “ is to be written across the face of this industry, it is time we reconsidered the huge amounts of money that are being spent in locking the River Murray. If this industry cannot be put on a profitable basis, what industries in that valley can be? We hear much talk of the huge population that the Murray valley will carry in the future, but the size of that population will be governed entirely by the economic position of those already settled there. I commend the bill. No doubt, the Government made full inquiries before fixing the amount of the bounty, which I hope will be sufficient; but I regret that it is not what it was before. I ask the Minister to grapple with the problem presented by the low prices of currants and lexias, and to indicate clearly to the House the attitude of the Government towards the request for an export bounty on those products.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I was not able to grasp the figures quoted by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, but I admitted, when moving the second reading, that viewed from some angles the wine bounty is uneconomic. The position of the dried fruits industry has been well stated by the honorable members for Yarra and Wimmera. Delegates representing the industry, including one of its leading lights, Mr. Howie, concentrated for a long time upon the wine bounty as a means of relieving the growers, and honorable members are aware that the Government delayed its conclusions in regard to that bounty, because the producers of dried fruits turned their attention from it, and made a further request for an export bounty on their products in lieu.

Mr Scullin:

– Was it in lieu ‘of, or supplementary to, the wine bounty?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It may have been supplementary to the wine bounty. In any case further inquiries had to be made before the Government could come to any conclusion on that point. Its decision concerning the wine bounty was stated by me to-day. In regard to the application for a bounty on the export of lexias and currants the Development and Migration Commission, as stated by the honorable member for Wimmera, is making an investigation into the economic position of the industry, and obviously that inquiry will greatly help the reference to the Tariff Board at an early date of the growers’ application for a bounty. Having regard to what has been said to-day the House will be satisfied that further economic inquires are necessary. The Government will do its best to keep this industry alive under fair conditions.

Mr Stewart:

– What will the growers do in the meantime?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Already the dried fruits industry has had a considerable amount of attention. Not long ago a sum of nearly £200,000 was written off in respect of advances made to growers a few years ago.

Mr Stewart:

– That is not correct-

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am speaking from memory.

Mr Scullin:

– Whatever we did for them a few years ago, I know that a few months ago the growers were in a bad way.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– A considerable amount has been done by the Government to help the industry. I mentioned this morning British and Canadian preference and our hopes of preferential treatment in New Zealand. By high protective duties we have preserved to the growers the whole of the Australian market. These facts should be remembered when the suggestion is made that the industry is being neglected by the Government.

Mr Scullin:

– The bounty would be limited by any increase in price. The suggestion is that the bounty should not be more than would return to the grower £30 per ton.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am not able to express an opinion as to what bounty, if any, should be given. The economic inquiry into the industry by the Development and Migration Commission must continue, and be followed by an investigation by the Tariff Board. All I can say at present is that the Government has no desire to see the industry fail, or to do less for it than has already been done, provided it can prove that it is right and proper that the taxpayers should bear an additional burden.

Mr Scullin:

– Does not the Minister think that the industry has already established a case ?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am unable to express any opinion. I have promised that in due course an investigation in accordance with the law shall be made by the Tariff Board into this very complex problem.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee -

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 -

Section ten of the principal act is amended by omitting the words “ doradilla grapes used in the production of the fortifying spirit contained in the wine “ and inserting in .their stead the following words: - “grapes used in the production of the wine or in the production of the fortifying spirit contained in the wine or for any fortifying spirit contained in the wine.”

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

– I should like the Minister to explain this clause.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The control of the Minister will be extended to the whole of the grapes.

Mr SCULLIN:

– Therefore, the guarantee of a better price to the growers, as provided in the original act, in respect of doradillas. will apply to all grapes.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

[2.46 J .-The act confines the power of the Minister to fixing a reasonable price for doradilla grapes only; and, although there is some hesitancy on the part of the department, as will be seen from Mr. Oakley’s report, to accent the further complicated administration that this bill will involve, the Government has decided that the greatest possible power should be retained by the Minister, to try to adjust the scales of justice fairly as between the grower and the wine-maker.

Mr. SCULLIN (Yarra) T2.47].- I agree with what the Government is doing. One of the weaknesses of the act is that it does not give power to the Minister to fix a reasonable price for all grapes. The Minister referred to Mr. Oakley’s report, and I suggest to him that honorable members have not been fairly treated in respect of the supply of copies of that report. It was only by the courtesy of the Minister this morning, who lent me his copy, that I had an opportunity of seeing Mr. Oakley’s minority report. If the Tariff Board makes a report, it should be available to honorable members. In view of the discussion on this bill,’ surely it would have been possible to supply honorable members with, say, a dozen copies of the report.

Mr Duncan-Hughes:

– What is the date of it?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The 28th February.

Mr SCULLIN:

– It was laid on the table of the House.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The Government had to consider the report before liberating it. It was considered only last week, and I laid the report on the table last Friday. I shall note the suggestion of the honorable member that, when printed reports are not available, a dozen copies should be typed for honorable members.

Mr STEWART:
Wimmera

.- There is a stipulation in the act that a certain price shall be paid to the growers of doradilla grapes before the wine export bounty can be claimed. Is that section still intact?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It is extended to include all grapes.

Mr STEWART:

– What basis of calculation is to be adopted in respect of currants, for instance, to arrive at a reasonable price to the grower?

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I am unable to anticipate the difficulties that may arise. Should any complaint reach me respecting the price paid by the winemakers for, say, currants, I shall, before I come to any decision, convene a conference such as was held in connexion with the fixing of the price of doradilla grapes.

Mr STEWART:
Wimmera

.- It has been strongly stressed that, under the act, the grower has not received as good a deal as the wine-maker has received. I consider that the price of £5 a ton is too low, and that it should be not less than £6 a ton.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The price of £5 was nearly twice as much as the growers were receiving before.

Mr STEWART:

– That statement is unfair. The Minister does not seem to realize that previously, rather than accept the price offering, the growers allowed their fruit to rot on the ground. The act, like many of the relief measures for the unfortunate grower, does not give him the benefit that it was intended by Parliament to give him. I hope that the Minister, in assessing the price to be paid for fruits that come within the ambit of the bounty, will safeguard the interests of the growers.

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

– I agree with the remarks of the honorable member forWimmera (Mr. Stewart). This clause really gives the Minister power to withhold the bounty from a wine-maker unless a fair price is paid to the grower. When the original legislation was before Parliament, I maintained that it should apply to all grapes. I endorse the statement of the honorable member that the growers, whom this legislation was intended to benefit, receive the least benefit of all. It has been stated that immediately the bounty was given the price of doradilla grapes increased from £2 or £3 to £6 10s. a ton, but it must be remembered that two or three years before the growers were obtaining £6 a ton for their grapes. Assuming that the direct result of the bounty was an increased price of £3 a ton, it must be borne in mind that the bounty paid to the wine-makers and distillers was £14 13s. a ton. It is evident that only a small portion of the bounty will be received by the growers. If the grower received direct the bounty of £14 13s. a ton, he could well afford to sell his grapes to the wineries at £2 or £3 a ton. In the light of the administration of the existing legislation, I believe that the whole scheme will have to be reconsidered. I suggest that the Minister, in exercising his powers, should bear in mind that this legislation was passed to give the growers their fair proportion of the bounty, and that that is still the intention of this Parliament.

Mr COOK:
Indi

. - I understood the Minister to say that the average selling price of wine exported to the United Kingdom was1s. l0d. a gallon, f.o.b. I suggest that he should take into consideration the systematic organization of the local market. In Australia, we are paying, for special wine, from 6s. 6d. to 8s. a bottle, and for ordinary wine, 4s. a bottle.There is, therefore, an enormous local market awaiting exploitation here, provided that it is properly and economically organized.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Mr GULLETT:
Henty

.- I move -

That the following new clause be inserted - 4a. The principal Act is amended, by inserting after section 9 the following new section: - 9a. No bounty shall be payable in respect of wine which is not shown, to the satisfaction of the Minister, to be the product of areas actually planted with vines on the 31st day of March, 1927.

This new clause, if passed, would prevent the bounty from being payable on areas of vineyards that may be planted because of the advantages given under this legislation, the intention of which, I take it, was to give relief to vignerons whose areas were already established, and particularly to some thousands of soldier settlers who had actually been encouraged by the Government to embark in the doradilla grape industry. I am entirely in accord with the bill, but I should be sorry indeed to think that this committee intended to give indefinite encouragement to the extension of the wine-making industry in Australia on a subsidized basis. I am not able to inform the committee as to the plantings of vines in the past few years, but it is perfectly obvious that, as a result of the bounty of 4s. a gallon, there has been an enormous increase in wine-making.

Mr Scullin:

– That is not due to extra planting.

Mr GULLETT:

– That is true; but vine cultivation has been so profitable during the past three years, and will be in the future while the bounty continues, that a rapid extension of the area of our vineyards is inevitable. The growth of this bounty is sensational. In the financial year 1925-26 the total amount paid, was £217,000, and it is certain that the amount will reach £400,000 for the current financial year, and will probably be quite as high next year even at the reduced rate provided for in the bill. I am sympathetic with the measure, and am delighted to see this Parliament, which has given such practical encouragement to secondary industries, engaged in considering, this kind of assistance to an important primary industry ;. but I am not prepared to continue indefinitely the subsidizing of any primary industry to the extent either of the old or the new bounty. It has been pointed out that the value of wine in respect of which the bounty has been paid, is about ls. lOd. per gallon, and that the Government has been adding to that about 4s. a gallon. We have been paying a subsidy amounting to upwards of 200 per cent., and under the new proposal we shall pay 150 per cent. In the interests of the taxpayers and economy we ought not to continue to pay the bounty without restriction. If my amendment is accepted it will not be a breach of faith, nor will it impose any serious hardship on existing growers, but will be an expression of our willingness to give support to the vinegrowers already in the business. The bounty was not intended to aggravate the problems of the industry, but to provide relief for the vine-growers, particularly the soldier settlers. It will not achieve its object by encouraging boundlessly the expansion of the industry on .an artificial basis. I commend the amendment to the -earnest consideration of the committee.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

.- On behalf of the Government I accept the amendment, which seems to be the logical corollary of what I said regarding organization when speaking on the second reading of the bill this morning, and it also seems to accord with the observations made during this debate. It will not inflict any hardship on the growers already possessing fully-matured vines, or even on growers who have new vines planted. It will not prevent growers from replanting vines, but will be a gesture by this Parliament to the growers to organize and ultimately dispense with the bounty, and it provides for the continuance of the bounty during the process of organizing. I am hopeful that very soon the whole of the industry will be placed on a more economic basis.

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

– I offer no objection to the amendment, which the Minister has correctly described as a gesture. That is all the effect it will have. When vines planted before the 31st March this year come into bearing, the bounty provided in this bill will have ceased ; but I point out that even if it is continued, there will be great difficul ltly in applying the amendment. It will be necessary to discriminate between different areas, and possibly between different States. In Western Australia this industry is just starting, and it is impossible to say what will happen in the- dif ferent parts of that State. Large areas might be exempt from receiving a bounty, and if that happened it might be held that this Parliament was discriminating between different parts of a State, or between different States. Across the Murray from Mildura large areas have been planted with vines, and the area under vines will be considerably extended this year. I agree with the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) that we should not extend by bounty the area under vines, and thus increase the complexity of the problem we are trying to solve.

Mr FOSTER:
Wakefield

– I am sorry to say that I cannot agree to the amendment. It amounts to a notification that vines planted after 31st March this year, which will come into bearing in three years’ time, will not participate in the bounty; and it is also an indication that, in the opinion of this Parliament, the limit of safety has been reached in the growing of grapes. I do not in the least believe that.

Mr Scullin:

– It does not mean that.

Mr FOSTER:

– Then what, in the name of conscience, does it mean? It will certainly be interpreted in the way I have suggested. This Parliament, with three other Parliaments, is committed to an expenditure of £10,000,000 or £11,000,000 for locking the Murray, and developmental work connected therewith. Our last Governor-General, and the Governor-General who preceded him, both held similar opinions about the value of the Murray lands. Lord Forster told me just before he left these shores that in 40 or 50 years’ time there would be half a million people on the Murray lands. He took great interest in that matter while he was in this country. The Murray is one of our priceless possessions; it is a source of wealth which, to our disgrace, we have hitherto allowed to flow into the sea. The Murray lands have a great and glorious future, and, therefore, I cannot be a party to placing shackles on those who believe in them. I shall vote against the amendment.

Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931

.- The effect of the amendment will be to create an almost impossible situation, and to depreciate the value of many vineyards. It will undoubtedly retard the planting of vineyards. I fail to see how the department can so police the provision as to ensure that only a certain proportion of the grapes from a particular vineyard receive the bounty, The amendment also provides differential treatment for the primary and secondary producers. When a tariff wall which has been erected is enabling the secondary producer to compete in the world’s markets, we do not proceed to take the advantage away from him. I am not in favour of this Government treating the primary producer differently from the secondary producer, and therefore I cannot see my way to support the amendment.

Mr. COOK (Indi) 3.13]. -I am sorry that the Minister accepted the amendment. The honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) is a city representative who is anxious, just as I am, to encourage secondary industries, but when he is faced with a proposal to assist an important primary industry, he throws cold water on it. I remind him that 96 per cent, of our total exports last year were primary products. The amendment is equivalent to saying to the vignerons, “ Cease producing,” and if that is justified, we might as well say to the dairymen, “ Cease breeding cows,” or 1o the wheat-farmers, “ Cease sowing wheat.” A large area of this country is still undeveloped, and yet it appears that many honorable members are ready to support a proposal to put the brake on. The cry is, “ We are overproducing,” and we have heard the same about apples and many other products. I trust that the Minister, on reconsideration, will reject the amendment, on the ground that it will have the effect of discouraging an important primary industry. If we have Rechabites or prohibitionists in the chamber who wish to abolish the wine-making industry altogether, let us look at the subject from their point of view; but it is ridiculous for us, with the one hand, to spend £470,000 in encouraging the industry, and, with the other, to cut its throat.

Mr MARKS:
Wentworth

.- I know very little about wine except that on occasions it is liquid sunshine ; but the new clause appeals to me, provided that it would not have the effect of retarding the planting of vines. Could it not be passed now, and brought up annually for reconsideration ? The idea of the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) is to stop the spoon-feeding of industries. I am as anxious as anybody to assist our returned men to make good, but if it is impossible for them to do so on vineyards then it is ridiculous for us to continue the payment of these bounties. I am glad to say that our Australian wine is looked upon with much more favour nowadays than formerly ; but when the PostmasterGeneral (Mr. Gibson) and I visited Sheffield, Manchester, Birmingham, Hull, and other centres in England a couple of years ago, we found it impossible to get Australian wine. It is available in England and on the continent during certain months of the year, but then it disappears. If we are ever to do anything with the industry, we must maintain continuity of supplies. Perhaps the Minister can see some method by which our acceptance of the clause will not have the effect of preventing an extension of our vineyard areas. As it appeals to me at present, I think the proposal is good, but there is a nigger in the wood pile.

Mr FOSTER:
Wakefield

.- The more I think about this proposal, the more serious it becomes. I am sure the Government has not carefully considered it. The Minister himself has spoken of the prospects of enormous developments in our wine production. We have so far barely touched the fringe of the London market. If the demand that we are creating there continues to grow, as we have every reason to expect that it will, and in a year or two we should find ourselves in the position of not being able to meet it, we should lose the market for ever. This is the most insane proposal I have ever heard. We should never have dreamed of spending millions of pounds in locking the Murray River if we had intended to limit the development of this industry. Surely honorable members cannot think seriously of indicating to the world by a provision in an act of Parliament that the Murray has reached the limit of its development.

Mr Gullett:

– Not at all.

Mr FOSTER:

– That is what this amendment would do. I have been in contact with men who have lived a lifetime next door to starvation on the Murray, and who now see a glorious future opening up for them. They are totally opposed to this proposal, and their view should carry more weight than the opinion of an honorable member who represents a city constituency. I trust that the Government will not spoil its reputation by accepting this proposal. Seeing that the Development and Migration Commission is investigating the whole subject of the development of the Murray, let us at least hold our hands until its report has come to hand.

Mr Marks:

– Surely we could agree to the amendment on the understanding that it would come up for review each year.

Mr FOSTER:

– Does the honorable member propose that we should make the men who are spending their lives developing this country dependent upon an annual decision in a matter of this kind ? I trust that the amendment will be rejected.

Mr STEWART:
Wimmera

.- While I appreciate the object of the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) in moving for the insertion of this clause in the bill I feel that it is too serious a gesture to make at this stage in the development of the industry. With the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster), I think we should be wise to take no action in this direction until the report of the Development and Migration Commission has come to hand. I trust that the Government will urge the Commission to submit its report at the earliest possible moment. The amount of planting that will be done between now and the time when the report of the commission comes to hand will be negligible. If the commission reported that the planting of more vines would be uneconomic, I do not think any honorable member would favour the extension of the industry. None of us desires to subsidize an uneconomic industry. The planting that is going on at present in the area mentioned by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin V and in several other States, should not be unnecessarily hindered.

Mr Gullett:

– Surely over-subsidized production should be limited ?

Mr STEWART:

– I ask the honorable member for Henty to withdraw his amendment, pending the receipt of the report of the Development and Migration Commission.

Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES:
Boothby

– A good deal may be said in favour of this proposal, which is based on the assumption that the object the Government had three years ago, when it provided for the payment of a bounty on wine, was to keep the industry alive during a difficult period in its development, but not to pay a bounty indefinitely. The real justification for our acceptance of this clause is the statement that we have repeatedly heard that unless the bounty is provided the industry cannot possibly develop. From that point of view the attitude of the honorable member for Henty is sound. But I can see that difficulties will arise if the clause is passed. It will undoubtedly be said to give a monopoly to those planters who have already established their vineyards. Then it will place in an unfair position people who may have paid a fairly high price for land for vineyard purposes. If we accept the date stated in the clause, namely, the 31st of March, we should add a proviso that it shall not apply in the cases of persons who can prove beyond question that they bought land with the intention of planting vineyards. These people should be placed upon the same basis as those who have actually planted their vines. The honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) pointed out that difficulty would be experienced in administration. There is no doubt about that. The proposal’ of the honorable member for Henty rests on the sound basis that the Government, while it desires to encourage those engaged in the industry, particularly returned soldiers, has no wish that the industry should be bolstered up indefinetely at the expense of the taxpayers. I support that view; but we should provide that where a grower could prove that he had already purchased land with the specific object of planting vines, he should receive exemption.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.- As I think that the proposal might result in reduced preparation of land for cultivation, I shall oppose it. The Minister for Trade and Customs himself said that it was a hint to those who were inclined to plant with a view to the production of wine or fruit for drying, that, if they planted after the 31st March, they would not be likely to receive a bounty. The warning given by the Minister was quite sufficient to cause those proposing to extend vineyards to move warily. The honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster) reminded us that millions were being spent in the Murray “Valley, where developments that we little dream of are likely to take place. Any action that would retard that development would be a step in the wrong direction. I shall ‘oppose the new clause.

Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling

.- There has been little time for the consideration of this far-reaching and extraordinary proposal, which is revolutionary so far as the Commonwealth Government is concerned. It is proposed, under the clause, to do certain things which far less important bodies than this Parliament would hesitate to do at halfanhour’s notice. I object to the proposed new clause, because it amounts to an instruction to the growers not to take certain action.

Mr GULLETT:
Henty

.- In view of the exception taken to the clause, I ask leave to withdraw it; but I do so with infinite regret. I am sorry that the bill has come along so late in the session. The interest shown in it indicates that a measure involving ‘an expenditure of £1,000,000 at least of the taxpayers’ money deserves more consideration than we are able to give it in the dying hours of the session. I think that a good deal of misconception exists as to what the effect of my proposal would have been, lt would not have put an end to the planting of vines. It merely implied that growers who’ choose to plant a particular variety of grape within the next few years would take a risk of not receiving the proposed heavy bounty.

Mr Stewart:

– That would be sufficient to curtail extension.

Mr GULLETT:

– It would be a very proper thing to do in the interests of the country, as a whole, and particularly of the growers concerned. I have had as much to do with the primary producers as most honorable members have, and I have a great deal of sympathy with them ; but I desire to warn them that they would be unwise in anticipating the continuance of a high bounty. Surely the Parliament does not wish to foster any primary industry on a hopelessly artificial basis. The honorable member for Wakefield referred to the sinking of £11,000,000 in development along the Murray Valley. The expenditure may soon be increased “to £111,000,000, if we continue to legislate on the lines adopted in connexion with the wine industry, when wine worth ls. lOd. a gallon is subsidized to the extent of 3s. and 4s. a gallon. It seems to me that we should be ill-advised in granting a bounty on a grand scale to wine-growers when other primary producers, who need encouragement, could show better returns for the money spent in providing assistance for them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Third Reading

Motion (by Mr. Pratten) proposed -

That the bill be now read a third time.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- I have not spoken in opposition to this measure; but on other occasions I have taken objection to the principle embodied in it. If the records of Hansard are searched, it will be found that I have ventured to utter a warning against subsidizing particular industries in a lavish manner, at the expense of the general taxpayers.

Mr Prowse:

– Every industry, almost, is treated in that way.

Mr BRENNAN:

– If that were so, we might eventually realize the ideals of the party of which I am spokesman. I believe that a bill of this kind should be considered in relation to the deliberate statement by the Minister in introducing it, namely, that the economic position of this country is indeed parlous. My principal object in rising was to endorse the view expressed by the honorable member for Yarra, with respect to the dried fruits industry. I regret profoundly that the wine bounty was not diverted, in part, at least, to the dried fruits industry, to which it could be more efficaciously and economically applied. In company with the honorable member for Yarra, and by the courtesy of the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart), I recently visited the Mildura district, and noticed the development that has taken place in the dried fruits industry. Consistently with what I said at the outset of my remarks, I realize that it is a bad policy to attempt to carry on the shoulders of the taxpayers an industry that cannot succeed on its own merits; in my opinion, the dried fruits industry does not come within that category. I endorse what has been said in regard to those responsible for encouraging returned soldiers and others to open up fruitgrowing settlements. If the Government is in a bounteous mood, it should surely extend its bounty to those settlers. Even the most niggardly in the granting of bounties will not deny that these industrious men should be supported in their high endeavour, since they are where they are because of the promises made by the Government itself. I hope that the Minister for Trade and Customs will take serious note of the position that has been disclosed during the debate, and as an act of sound administration, as well as an effort to do the fair thing, will see that justice is done to the growers of dried fruits, particularly in the area concerning which I have acquired first hand knowledge.

Mr MANN:
Perth

.- Owing to circumstances over which I had no control, I was for the last hour unable to express anyopinion on this measure, and it is on that account I take advantage of the opportunity to speak on the motion for the third reading. I am aware that I cannot refer to what took place in committee on the bill, but I want to say that I regret very much that the bounty should be continued without any indication as to when it will cease tooperate. The giving a bounty to an industry of this kind is unsound and uneconomic. It has only been justified by honorable members on the ground that it has been necessary to enable those who were induced by the Government to take up this class of primary production to keep going at all. It was frankly stated that the bounty was intended only to enable the producers to get on their feet and put the industry into a sound position. Unless the Government does draw hard and fast lines and says that, while it is perfectly willing to pay the bounty to men now engaged in the industry, but is unwilling that it should be indefinitely extended, the confessed object of this legislation must inevitably be defeated. It has been contended that to restrict the area to which this legislation shall apply would have the effect of diminishing the value of the interests of those already engaged in the industry, but it must have exactly the reverse effect. To improve the financial position of those at present receiving the bounty, must give greater promise that they will be able to get on their feet and become independent of government aid. If it is recognized, as I think it is, that these bounties are economically unsound, surely we should take such steps as may be necessary to enable the industry to be established on an economic basis as soon as possible. If the bounty is to be extended indefinitely, and we are to say to any settler who plants in the next two or three years that he, also, will receive the bounty, we shall be faced with the difficulty that we shall be paying money to settlers to continue, and even to increase, the very competition which is making the industry at the present time unsound and unprofitable.

Mr Marks:

– The amendment suggested would have dealt with that matter.

Mr MANN:

– I cannot, at this stage, refer to the amendment, but honorable members are aware of what I am dealing with. If we are serious in our intention to give this bounty in order to help the industry to get on its feet, surely we should not take steps that must inevitably have the effect of knocking its feet from under it. Honorable members know that I do not approve of the payment of bounties, and if they are sincere in the view they express generally of the uneconomic character of bounties, they should agree to some limitation of operation for this measure and should not permit the bounty to go on indefinitely.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 971

BILLS FROM THE SENATE

The following bills were returned from the Senate, without amendment.

Loan Bill.

Conciliation and Arbitration Bill.

Judiciary Bill.

page 971

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE TARIFF SCHEDULE

In Committee of Ways and Means:

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I move -

That the schedule to the Customs Tariff 1921- 26 be further amended as hereunder set out, and that on and after the twenty-fourth day of March, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-seven, at nine o’clock in the forenoon, Victorian time, Duties of Customs be collected in pursuance of the Customs Tariff as so amended.

That, excepting by mutual agreement or until after six months’ notice has been given to the Government of the dominion of New Zealand, nothing in this resolution shall effect any goods the produce or manufacture of the dominion of New Zealand entering the Commonwealth of Australia from the dominion of New Zealand.

f 'That the Schedule to the *Excise Tariff* 1921-1926 be amended as hereunder set out, and that on and after the twenty-fourth day of March, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-seven, at nine o'clock in the forenoon, Victorian time, Duties of Ex.:ise on Starch made from the imported rice be repealed. The first of these resolutions will be operative as and from the present moment, but the second, proposing tho omission of item 5 of the excise tariff, will not be operative until it has been passed by this House. The reason why the Government has brought forward special tariff resolutions of this sort is to encourage the great development that is going on in the production of rice on the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area. I said a few words the other night regarding that great development, the story of which reads almost like a romance. Two hundred tons of rice were garnered on the area two years ago, 2,000 tons twelve months ago, and, if the weather holds good, when the crop is reaped again next month some of the optimists expect that it will reach 9,000 tons. This is a new industry which is not protected, although it has to compete with the products of black labour. The proposal of the Government is to reimpose the duties on rice which were abolished by the Customs Tariff Act of 1921. I believe that as a result of the passing of this proposal, that when in September rice is again being planted in the irrigation area for a crop to be garnered in April of the following year, the growers will be so heartened by the protection afforded them that they will be induced to plant enough to supply practically the whole of the requirements of Australia. I know that we all wish them well in their progressive effort, and hope that this very great development of their industry will be realized. Rice is a product of varying quality, but that grown on the Murrumbidgee area is of the first grade. As the result of investigations the Government came to the conclusion to submit these proposals to Parliament. In connexion with the excise duty the proposal submitted is merely a gesture, which to be effective, must be confirmed by Parliament. The excise tariff resolution proposes the omission of Item 5 of the excise item, which at present imposes a duty of Id. per lb. on starch made from imported rice. Now that under the first resolution imported rice will be dutiable, the way will be made clear for the abolition of the excise duty on starch. Those engaged in the starch-making industry will be able to make starch from Aus- tralian-grown rice, and thus escape the excise duty altogether. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- I should lite the debate to be adjourned, in order that I may look into this matter. Perhaps the Minister would be prepared to report progress ? {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- What is this? Another attempt to prevent discussion *1* **Mr. PRATTEN** (Martin- Minister for Trade and Customs). - I move - >That progress be reported. Question resolved in the affirmative. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- On a point of order, I would like a ruling from the Chair as to whether progress can be reported when objection is raised to the motion to report progress before it is put to the committee. {: #subdebate-35-0-s1 .speaker-JOG} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Mr Bayley:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND I put the question to the Committee on the motion submitted by the Minister, and heard no dissentient voice. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- I objected to the motion before it was put, so as to permit of discussion. {: #subdebate-35-0-s2 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I heard no protest, and the motion was one that could not be debated. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- I rose to protest before the motion was put, and I caught the Chairman's eye. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I saw the honorable member on his feet, but I did not hear what he said. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- What I said was, " What is happening? Is progress going to be reported? If so, I object." {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The question that progress be reported has been put and carried. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- I am asking the Chairman of Committees to rule whether, if objection has been raised, a motion to report progress can be put. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- It is for the committee to decide whether progress shall be reported or not, by a direct vote. When I put the question to the committee there was no dissenting voice. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- I am afraid, sir, that you have not grasped my point. As soon as a motion to report progress has been put to the committee, nothing can be done except to vote upon it; but if I raise an objection to such a motion before it is put to the committee, can it then be submitted from the Chair? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The leave of the committee to report progress was not asked, but a motion was submitted - that progress be reported. If leave to submit a motion were necessary, one dissentient voice would prevent its being put; but on a direct vote the committee records its decision by a majority. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- If a member is on his feet and desires to address himself to the question, can a motion to report progress prevent him from exercising his right to speak ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The Minister received the call from the Chair, and he moved that progress be reported. The question was put to the committee, and carried on the voices. Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 973 {:#debate-36} ### STATES LOAN BILL Order of the day for resumption of the debate on the motion that the bill be read a second time, called on. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 973 {:#debate-37} ### INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS APPROPRIATION BILL Message from the Governor-General recommending appropriation reported. *In committee* (Consideration of GovernorGeneral's message) : Motion (by **Dr. Earle** Page) agreed to - >That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to grant and apply out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund a sum for old-age and invalid pensions. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended, and resolution adopted. *Ordered -* >That **Dr. Earle** Page and **Mr. Paterson** do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented by **Dr. Earle** Page, and read a first time. {:#subdebate-37-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-37-0-s0 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · Cowper · CP -- I move - >That the bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this bill is to provide from the Consolidated Revenue Fund the sum of £10,000,000 for the payment of invalid and old-age pensions. The measure does not deal with the rate of pension or the conditions under which they are payable. The usual practice is for an appropriation of £10,000,000 to be made from the Consolidated Revenue Fund and placed, from time to time, in the trust account from which the pensions are paid. The total appropriation for this purpose up to date is £81,250,000, of which £75,747,000 had been expended at the 2Sth February, 1927, leaving a balance of appropriation of £5,803,000 still available. As the expenditure on invalid and old-age pensions is now at the rate of £9,000,000 per annum, it will be seen that this balance is only sufficient for approximately seven months. It is, therefore necessary to appropriate a further amount of £10,000,000. {: #subdebate-37-0-s1 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I again enter my protest against the cruelty of asking old.-age pensioners to answer six pages of questions when applying for a pension. I think the interrogations number about 57. Even if an applicant was born in Australia he has to answer a query as to the ship in which he arrived; he must state the maiden name of his mother and the name of his father. What has this information to do with an application for a pension? The questions should be few and simple. Every old person who has borne the heat and burden of the day, for 65 years in the case of a man and CO years in the case of a WOman, should be able to receive a pension without having to answer the interminable questions that no government would dare to ask of a highly-paid official who was about to retire. Why, too, should an applicant be disqualified because of the possession of a small amount of money? A person who has £310 in the Savings Bank cannot draw a penny in pension, but he may own a house worth £5,000, without sacrificing his full pension, if he occupies it as his own home, and does not draw from it more than 12s. 6d. weekly for the letting of rooms. When the late Queen Alexandra was granted an allowance of £80,000 per annum, was she required- to answer any of these absurd questions? Are high officials who retire from the Defence Department upon a pension interrogated in this way? Will the judges of the High Court, when they retire, be asked to fill in six pages of questions before they can draw the pensions which this Parliament has declared they may have? Through my office in Elizabeth-street over 5,000 old-age, invalid, and war pensioners have passed during the last 38 years. Some of the old folks could barely write their signatures; yet on one page they are asked to sign their name twice. For the ' most serious document in law, a will, one signature by the testator suffices. Why should not one be enough on an application for a pension? Another signature is required on a card that has to be filled in. Periodically each pensioner has to answer many more questions and sign before a magistrate. If Liberal and Nationalist thought had agreed with Labour thought there would be no impediment to a man or woman, who had been thrifty, drawing a full pension. If an intending applicant tells me that he has £200 or £300 I advise him to invest it in a home for himself, so that he may have a chance to draw a full pension. What harm would be done to the Commonwealth if a millionaire were to draw the full pension of £1 per week? The Treasury would recover much more than that amount from him in the form of taxation. Let us build up a system of helping the aged and infirm that is not characterized by the degradation and infamy of the poor-house regulations in England. Many of the questions upon Ihe application form seem to have been taken from those regulations. As a former house surgeon in London, I know what the old poor-houses were, but because of the growth of democratic sentiment and the development of the Labour party in the Old Country, these establishments, now called infirmaries, are on a much better footing. Re-visiting one in a district of London in which I had worked as a house surgeon, I could not help noticing the improvement that had been effected. I am not attacking the officials in charge of the Pensions Department. "Within the limits prescribed by the act and regulations they are kindly disposed to the pensioners. I was very regretful when the administration of pensions was transferred from the State departments, but I am sure that the Commonwealth officials are all that we could wish them to be. **Dr. Dane,** who examines, applicants for invalid pensions, is, however, somewhat severe. Even if he is acting under instructions from the department, and endeavouring to save money, he should not be so hard-hearted. I ask the Treasurer to see if regulations cannot be drafted to simplify procedure. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- I shall submit the honorable member's comments to the Pensions Department. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 975 {:#debate-38} ### BANKRUPTCY BILL {:#subdebate-38-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-38-0-s0 .speaker-KZO} ##### Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT -- I move - That the bill be read *a* second time. Certain preliminary steps, including the framing of regulations, have already been taken to bring into operation the Bankruptcy Act passed by Parliament some time ago. The State Premiers have been consulted, and conferences of AttorneysGeneral and the State bankruptcy officers held. Since the principal act was passed various representations have been received from chambers of commerce and other bodies concerning its provisions, which have been subjected to a most acute and searching investigation. As a result of conferences between the representatives of the States and the Commonwealth bankruptcy officers, certain amendments have been agreed to, and they are now embodied in this bill. An inspector-general in bankruptcy has been appointed as required by the act, and when this measure is passed our bankruptcy law will be brought into operation. A number of forms have been prepared and printed, registers have also been compiled, and inquiries made concerning the appointment of the necessary staffs and their accommodation in the different States. The amendments proposed in the bill are to a large extent of a minor character, but are necessary in order to make our bankruptcy law effective. For instance, provision has been made whereby' an official receiver, charged with the administration of an estate and responsible for the safety of the assets, shall give security. This was an omission from the principal act which is now being remedied. More effective provision is also made for the enforcement of the orders of the court by providing that they shall be enforced in the same manner as are orders of the High Court. As the act stands at present an individual who had committed an act of bankruptcy immediately before the commencement of the act could not be proceeded against under a State act which had ceased to operate, and, as the Commonwealth law was not in operation, he could not be proceeded against under our statute. Provision has, therefore, been made to overcome that difficulty. The principal other amendments include an addition to section 96a, which is covered by clause 12 of the bill, which is to protect members of the publice dealing in good faith with a person who subsequently becomes bankrupt. Speaking generally, where an order of sequestration is made, the property of the bankrupt is vested in the official receiver as from the date of the act of bankruptcy, and payments previously made to the bankrupt, which were valid at the time, may be rendered invalid. It is, therefore, important to include a provision protecting persons who deal in good faith with one who subsequently becomes insolvent. Those are the main provisions of the bill. There are, other minor amendments. As the measure is necessary in order to make our bankruptcy law effective, I submit it to the House with confidence. {: #subdebate-38-0-s1 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I congratulate the Government and the Attorney-General **(Mr. Latham)** upon introducing this amending measure, which, I understand, will bring our bankruptcy law up to date. Whenever a bill of this nature is introduced, I ask **Mr. Joseph** Woolf, a legal friend of mine, if it contains anything that will lessen the protection afforded to women and children. For over 50 years, the women and girls of Victoria have been well protected, and I am informed that in this measure that protection may be reduced. I approached the Attorney-General, who, with his usual courtesy, assisted me. When the measure is in committee, it is my intention to move that - >After sub-section 7, after paragraph (k), the following paragraph be inserted: - > >that there is an unsatisfied judgment against the insolvent in any action for assault, breach of promise, or seduction, or for any malicious injury, or for damages in a divorce suit. - As the effect of this amendment can be move effectively explained when the bill is in committee, I shall not comment further upon it at this stage. {: #subdebate-38-0-s2 .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I am glad the Government has introduced a bill to amend the Bankruptcy Act, which contains some of the amendments desired; but which, unfortunately, does not include others which have been suggested and are important. In a large State, such as Queensland, difficulty is experienced by business men in dealing with up-country debtors. I have in mind, more particularly, retail storekeepers, who have been supplying small farming settlers with goods during periods of drought or at other times when they have been faced with adversity. The storekeepers, honest men, are sometimes heavily indebted to the merchants, who may allow them to continue provided an experienced trustee is appointed to supervize their operations and they continue- to supply the firms who are trustworthy. It is unreasonable to expect a competent trustee to carry on such work for a commission of 11/4 per cent, on the turnover, particularly when he has to travel long distances to reach different centres to ascertain the nature of orders, audit the books, and submit a report to the creditors. I urge the Attorney-General -to make the minimum rate of commission 11/2 per cent. The Minister notified that he would agree to the request. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee.* Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3 (District Registrars and Official Receivers). {: #subdebate-38-0-s3 .speaker-KZO} ##### Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT -- This clause deals with the position of official receivers who have charge of the assets of insolvents. It is obviously proper that they should give security. No difficulty arises with respect to clauses 4 to 11. Clause 12 is entirely for the protection of the public. Clause agreed to. Clauses 4 to 12 agreed to. Clause 13. Section one hundred and nineteen of the Principal Act is. amended - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. by omitting from paragraph (a) of sub-section (5.) the word " trustee " and inserting in its stead the words " official receiver " ; 1. by omitting paragraph (b) of subsection (6) (including the proviso to that paragraph), and inserting in its stead the following paragraph : - " (b) suspend the discharge for a specified period; or"; and *(a)* by inserting in sub-section (8.) before the words " the trustee ", the words " the official receiver or ". {: #subdebate-38-0-s4 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I propose to move - >That the following new sub-paragraph be inserted : - (ba) by inserting in sub-section (7) after paragraph (k) the following paragraph : - " (l) That there is an unsatisfied judgment against the insolvent in any action for assault breach of promise or seduction or for any malicious injury or for damages in any divorce suit." It is possible to have a breach of promise of marriage without seduction, which may be a serious matter. A case in point occurred in the High Court today. **Mr. Owen** Dixon, K.C., declared that the defendant, had refused to pay his debts for life, although the appellant had won a breach of promise action against him in 1914, and obtained judgment for £472. The judgment of the High Court was to refuse the certificate of the insolvent for life, and that he pay all costs up to and including the High Court. In that case there was no question of seduction, but there was a breach of promise of marriage with great injury to the unfortunate lady concerned. {: #subdebate-38-0-s5 .speaker-KZO} ##### Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT -- The object desired by the honorable member can, I think, be gained by amending section 121 of the act, and I am prepared to move an amendment, the effect of which will be that an order of discharge from insolvency would not release the bankrupt from any liability under a judgment against him in an action for breach of promise of marriage, as well as in other actions set out in that section. If the honorable member is prepared to accept that amendment, I shall move it at a later stage. {: #subdebate-38-0-s6 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .-I am prepared to accept the Minister's amendment, and am grateful to him for it, but I would also point out that many malicious injuries are done. For instance, a man frequently uses a bottle to hit another man on the head, and I think that that action should come under the heading of malicious injury. Unfortunately in the majority of cases damages are given when corporal punishment or imprisonment should be inflicted. {: #subdebate-38-0-s7 .speaker-KZO} ##### Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT -- I am aware that the phrase " malicious injury " appears in similar context in the Victorian act; but it is a phrase of doubtful significance. An assault may be technical or committed in anger, and heavy damages may be given; but it may not be malicious in the ordinary or legal sense. On the other hand, there may be a malicious assault with deliberate intent to do harm without any provocation. The judgment in itself would not show whether it was in respect of a malicious injury or not. I ask the honorable member not to persist with his amendment, and I shall move a new clause at the end of the bill which will provide for breach of promise of marriage. Clause 13 agreed to. Clause 14 - >Section one hundred and twenty-three of the principal act is repealed, and the following section inserted in its stead : - " 123. Notice of allorders of discharge granted under section one hundred and twenty-one of this act shall be published in the *Gazette,* and in such other manner as is prescribed, and shall be lodged in the office of the Registrar of Titles or Registrar-General or other proper officer of each State and in such other places as are prescribed." {: #subdebate-38-0-s8 .speaker-KZO} ##### Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT -- I move - >That the words "twenty-one" be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words "nineteen." An error has been made in this clause. The reference to section 121 in the act should be to section 119. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 15 agreed to. Clause 16- " (2) Where the trustee pursuant to resolution of the creditors carries on the business of the debtor, he may retain out of the estate, in addition to- any remuneration under the last preceding sub-section, such commission, not exceeding One pound five shillings per centum on the turnover or sales made in the ordinary course of carrying on the business, as the creditors fix by resolution.". I move - >That in paragraph (2) the word " five " be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " ten." That amendment applies to both clauses *16 and 17.* The honorable member for Wide Bay **(Mr. Corser),** in addition to his remarks this afternoon, has made certain representations to me, and I am prepared on behalf of the Government to accept his suggestion. The amendment will give power to the creditors if they think proper to pay up to 11/2 per. cent, commission in a case where a trustee is authorized by them to carry on the business of the bankrupt. The particular circumstances in Queensland to which the honorable member has referred, and with which he is so familiar, indicate the desirability of allowing more freedom of action to the creditors. The act does not fix the commission, but allows the creditor to fix it within limits. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 17 consequentially amended and agreed to. Clause 18 agreed to. Clause 19 agreed to. {: #subdebate-38-0-s9 .speaker-KZO} ##### Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT -- I move - >That after clause 13 the following new clause be inserted : - > >Clause 13 (a) section 121 of the principal act is amended by inserting in paragraph C of sub-section 1 after the word " seduction " the words " or for breach of promise of marriage." That will make the amendment suggested by the honorable member for Melbourne **(Dr. Maloney).** The result will be that a bankrupt who is discharged from bankruptcy will not be released from liability under a judgment against him in an action or for breach of promise of marriage. Proposed new clause agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with amendments ; report, by leave, adopted. Bill, by leave, read a third time. {: .page-start } page 978 {:#debate-39} ### PEARL-SHELL OVERSEAS MARKETING BILL {:#subdebate-39-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-39-0-s0 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I move - >That the bill be now read a second time. This bill is introduced at the urgent request of the producers, whose desires have been voiced by the honorable members for Herbert **(Dr. Nott)** and Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green).** The Government feels justified in this legislation because of the importance of the pearl shell industry to Australia. About 85 per cent, of the world's supply of pearl shell comes from Australia, the annual production in the Commonwealth being approximately 2,250 tons, of an estimated value of £361,000. Of this quantity, 1,200 tons is fished at Broome, Western Australia, 1,000 tons at Thursday Island, and 50 tons at Darwin. The industry gives employment to about- 3,300 persons, whilst the value of the 411 vessels engaged in the industry is approximately £212,000. In addition, trochus shell to the value of approximately £80,000 per annum is also fished in Australia. At Shark Bay, Western Australia, a variety of pearl shell is found in shallow water. This shell, although much smaller in size, and consequently lighter, than the pearl shell found at . Broome and Darwin, is nevertheless of commercial value. The annual quantity of such shell fished is 185 tons, valued at £2,200.' Eighty persons are engaged in the industry at Shark Bay, the number of vessels employed is 35, and the value pf the boats and equipment is approximately £10,685. lt is not proposed at this juncture to include within the scope of this measure the trochus shell or the smaller pearl shell industry at Shark Bay ; but the door has been left open to include them later, should the persons engaged in the industry in those places so desire. Although the bill does not apply to pearls, it may interest honorable members to know that the value of the pearls produced in Australia is estimated at about £63,000 per annum. The cost of producing pearl shell ranges from £150 to £170 per ton, while the prices realized for last season's shell ranged from £160 to £180 per ton, packed and delivered at Broome. Before the war, when the cost of production was lower, Australian pearl shell realized about £230 per ton abroad. Licences to fish for pearl are issued by the State Governments, the cost of a licence iti Western Australia being a flat rate of £10 per vessel per annum; while at Thursday Island the annual licence fee ranges from 10s. per boat to £3 for a 10-ton ship, and up to a maximum of £20 for ships exceeding 10 tons. Under the Western Australian law no licence other than a diver's, diver's tender, or pearl dealer's licence, is granted to any person who is not a British subject, the object being to preclude aliens from sharing in the profits of the industry. As it was found that the law was being circumvented by " dummying," amending legislation was passed in 1924, which made it practically impossible for " dummying " to be carried on. Although there are still suspicions in a few cases, it can be said that " dummying " has practically been wiped out, and that Asiatics have no interest in the industry except their wages. Information has been received from a reliable source to the effect that all of the owners of pearling vessels, both at Thursday Island and at Broome, are Australians of European descent. A great deal of Japanese and other- coloured labour is employed in the pearling industry. That is unavoidable, because persons of those races are specially fitted for the work of diving for shell. In addition to Japanese, numbers of Koepangers, Malays, and Chinese are employed, permission to introduce such labour being obtained from the Minister for Home and Territories. A bond of £100 for each man is entered into. In Western Australia the remuneration of the divers, who are principally Japanese, varies from £20 to £52 per ton of pearl shell fished, according to the size and equipment of the vessel, the quantity of shell fished, and the price of the shell. The maximum wage to be paid to divers is fixed annually by the Executive Council of that State, and is gazetted. The object of fixing the maximum wage is to prevent " dummying." The Pearling Act of Western Australia provides that any remuneration paid in excess of the gazetted figures shall be deemed to be a share in the profits; and sharing of the profits by an Asiatic is illegal. The pearling season in Western Australia commences about the beginning of March, and con- eludes about the end of November. The vessels are then laid up until the commencement of the next season. The home trade in pearl shell is negligible; practically the whole of the output is exported. With a view to eliminating the speculator, whose actions are having an adverse effect on the industry, the pearlers' associations of Broome and Thursday Island have requested the appointment of an overseas marketing board, vested with the powers set out in the bill. The request is also supported by the Commonwealth Board of Trade. As the pearling season has now commenced, it is desirable that this legislation shall be passed as early as possible, in order that a poll of the producers may be taken, and that, should a favorable verdict be obtained from them, the board may be established in time to deal with the 1927 production. It will be seen that this measure is framed on the same lines as the acts dealing with the export of dairy produce, dried fruits, and canned fruits. It should be unnecessary to devote much time to the machinery clauses of the bill, seeing that only last night, in connexion with the Fresh Fruits Overseas Marketing Bill, we discussed similar provisions. It is proposed to appoint a board of three members, one to be appointed by those persons engaged in the industry at Broome, another by those at Thursday Island and Darwin, the third member, who will be a commercial man, being appointed by the Commonwealth Government. In its present form the bill does not provide that those persons engaged in the industry at Darwin shall participate in the election of a member of the board, or in the poll which will decide whether the act shall be brought into operation; but, in committee, I shall move an amendment to include them. Although they produce only 50 tons of shell per annum at Darwin, as compared with 1,200 tons at Broome and 1,000 tons at Thursday Island and Torres Straits, the Government considers that they should not be ignored when legislation dealing with the industry in which they are engaged is under consideration. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- Will they be included in the Western Australian or the Thursday Island section ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- They will be included in the Thursday Island section because, by reason of the shipping arrangements at Darwin, they are m closer contact with Thursday Island than with Broome. I desire to emphasize that this legislation will not be brought into operation unless and until a majority of the votes of those engaged in the industry favours that being done.. Voting at the poll, both in relation to the coming into operation of the act and the appointment of the board, will be restricted to boatowners. That provision is made because all the boat-owners engaged in the industry are Australians of European decent.' The various State Governments concerned do not issue licences for pearl fishing to other than Australian subjects. The machinery clauses of the bill are identical with those in other legislation which has been passed by this Parliament. Power is given to the board, when appointed, to accept the responsibility for the sale of such pearl shell as may voluntarily be placed under its control by those who produce it. That will enable the producers to obtain from the board, through the Rural Credits Department of the Commonwealth Bank, advances on the security of their product. The board may also grant licences to exporters carrying on business in the industry, and may require them to conform to certain conditions. Otherwise, they will be prevented from exporting shell. A third advantage which should accrue from the passing of this legislation is that the board will be vested with power to negotiate on an industry basis in connexion with freights and marine insurance. I trust that the House will agree to the second reading. {: #subdebate-39-0-s1 .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY:
Darwin .- I regret that the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green)** is not present to take part in the discussion on this bill. For many years the honorable member has endeavoured to obtain for his constituents some such marketing arrangement as this bill proposes. Because the pearl-shell industry is carried on in the sparsely populated areas in the tropical north and north-west portions of the Commonwealth, between Shark Bay and Torres Straits, and that, for the most part, those engaged in the actual securing of the shell < are foreigners, many people think that it is not of great value to Australia. But as a result of inquiries which I made when in those areas, I found that, with few exceptions, the persons who had invested capital in the industry were Australians. It is true that at present few white men are engaged as divers for the shell; but I look forward to the time when they will engage in the work, as they do now, in diving in the more southerly waters round our coast. If white men can give satisfaction as divers in the deep waters of some of our harbours, they should be able to do the same in these shallower waters. Off the north-west coast of Western Australia, a lot of pearl shell is obtained, and, apparently, the harvest is inexhaustible. Areas that were fished out 40 years ago, are to-day providing good yields. Prior to the war, there was an ostentatious display of pearls and pearl shell in London, Berlin, Vienna, Paris, and the other great cities of the world, and it is a tragedy for those in the industry that to-day many persons who spent their money in that way are not now doing so. That is not due to a decreased desire for the possession of the beautiful, but to lack of the necessary cash. European countries, which formerly purchased large quantities of pearl and pearl shell, are now purchasing very little. On the other hand, the United States of America, which became more wealthy as a result of the war, is now able to buy, and is buying, these luxuries. It has been proved that oversea combinations of buyers have operated to the detriment of the industry. Returns in Western Australia show that pearls are one-fifth of the total value of the harvest of pearls and pearl shell, but, extraordinary to relate, no pearls are recovered in the Torres Strait, or near Thursday Island. Japanese are employed exclusively as divers there, and I have heard several explanations why pearls are not obtained. I have heard the suggestion that it is due to certain taxation laws of Queensland and the Commonwealth, and it is also said that some of the owners have entered into agreements with the divers that all pearls recovered shall become the property of the divers. The suspicion exists in the minds of local people that there has been a lot of " dummying." Although I am glad to have the Minister's statement that very little " dummying " is done, I am at a loss to know why his informants are so sure of their opinion, because, so far as I could learn from personal inquiries at Thursday Island and Port Darwin, low-class white persons, who have become, for monetary reasons, the tools of foreigners, are operating boats registered, in their names, but owned by foreigners. I realize that it is as difficult to prove dummying " in the registration of pearling luggers, as in the registration of land. In 1920, there were in the northwest 515 luggers, which were reduced, in 1921, to 334. In 1920, 3,738 men were employed in the industry, and in 1921 only 2,403. During 1920, £400,000 worth of pearls and pearl shell was recovered, but in 1921 the value of the harvest dropped to £250,000. The prices now obtained are unsatisfactory, and, therefore, those honorable members, particularly the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green),** who have interested themselves in this industry, realize that everything possible should be done to market economically and efficiently the rich harvest obtained. The bill is practically a replica of those which we have had on many occasions dealing with other produce. Although, in general terms, I support the principle of the bill, I suggest that some of its clauses should be altered. It is a good idea to take a poll of the producers, who should at the same time elect their representatives. The poll should be taken on an adult franchise, with no plural voting. It is wrong to depart from a principle like adult franchise, which is firmly established in the Commonwealth and State Parliaments, and in many municipalities. We do not allow an elector, because he may own Scott's Hotel, or other large buildings in the city, to exercise a vote in proportion to the wealth in bricks and mortar that he possesses. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Many of us would not be here if that was done. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- I agree with the honorable member. The principle of adult suffrage is a good one, and has been accepted by the people of Australia. The bill proposes to depart from it by giving wealth a plurality of votes. It provides that a man shall have a vote for every lugger or attendant vessel that he owns. I am doubtful whether it is wise to depart from a principle which has been accepted in both the Commonwealth and State Parliaments, with the exception of some of the upper Houses, and was ac- cepted by this House to-day in one or two bills introduced by the Minister for Markets and Migration. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The same principle was adopted in the Canned Fruits Bill as is contained in the bill now before the House. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- The last bill we passed gave the growers one vote each, irrespective of the area they cultivated. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- It provided for a vote of canners in proportion to the quantity canned. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- I was speaking about the fruit-growers. The bill relating to them provided that if a person had an orchard of 1,000 acres he should have one vote, and that if he had an orchard of only 10 acres he should also have only one vote. Honorable members on this side have always resisted any attempt to give one person more voting power than another. It is a fallacious principle that wealthy persons should have extra representation; they should not be given any advantage over those less fortunately situated economically. In the pearling industry the owner of one, two, or three vessels should have the same voting power as the owner of ten, 20 or 30. {: .speaker-JY7} ##### Mr Duncan-Hughes: -- "What about the nian who has a one-hundredth share in a vessel ? {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- Obviously a vessel could have only one vote. {: .speaker-JY7} ##### Mr Duncan-Hughes: -- According to the honorable member's principle, the man with a one-hundredth share in a vessel should have as much voting power as any one else. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- In conjunction with his partners, he would have the same voting power as any one else. The franchise is based upon boats, and, obviously, the shareholders would have to exercise the franchise through their manager or legal representative. Another question is, who is eligible to vote ? I am not convinced that those who should not have a vote will not be able to vote, and, although I do not fear that other than Australians will be elected to the board, I am not convinced that such a result is impossible. In Western Australia and Queensland there are acts of parliament under which pearling luggers are licensed, and before the owners of them can exploit the ocean beds, their vessels must pass certain tests and conform to certain requirements. The Queensland act of 1881 provided for the licensing of pearl- fishers as follows: - >From and after the commencement of this act it shall not be lawful to use or employ any ship or boat in the pearl-shell and beche-de-mer fishery within the colony of Queensland, or within one league to seaward from any part thereof, unless such ship or boat is duly licensed as hereinafter provided. There was provision for the licensing of boats without any reservation. The amending act of 1913 introduced certain limitations, but I am not sure that a licence obtained prior to the passing of that act is not renewable without conforming to the new standard. The amendment provides, among other things - >After the passing of this act, it shall be unlawful for any person who has not first obtained in the prescribed manner a certificate of having passed the dictation test to hold any licence in respect of any ship or boat employed in the fishery, or any lease under the Pearl-shell and Beche-de-mer Fishery Acts, 1881 to 1913. The interpretation is - >In this section, the expression " certificate of having passed the dictation test" means a certificate under the hand of a State officer, authorized for that purpose by the Treasurer, that, when the said officer has dictated to the person concerned not less than 50 words in such language as the Treasurer may direct, such person has correctly written them out in that language in the presence of the said officer. There is no doubt that it would be impossible for a foreigner to go to Queensland to-day, and take out a licence to fish for pearls and other tropical marine products. I understand that foreigners who had obtained licences prior to tho amending act of 1913 had not the right to renew their licences without passing a dictation test. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- Would not they be naturalized Australian subjects? {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- i doubt if naturalization was allowed under either the original act or the act of 1SS6. That is a point upon which I think we should be quite clear before we pass the bill. We should be sure that certain people who may have licences and own boats will not be eligible for positions on the board. I am not afraid that any of them will be nominated, or, if nominated, elected ; but I am sure that it is the wish of the House that no persons other than Australians should be appointed or elected to the board. I am sorry that the bill does not deal with other tropical marine products. Trochus shell, since the war, has become an important commodity. In my estimation, and in the opinion of many people who have admired its beauty and lustre, it will in the near future play a very important part in the manufacture of lacquer work and other uses to which pearl shell is now put. There is no doubt that before long it will be exploited to its fullest extent, and that the marine harvest will not be confined to pearl shell, which is provided for in this bill, but will embrace trochus shell, trepang, and many other products. I hope that the board will give its attention to the possibility of encouraging the harvesting of the other tropical products I have mentioned, and that eventually they will be brought within its provisions. I am pleased to know that, at the outset, at all events, members of the board will not be' appointed for a longer period than two years. This measure is an experiment, and sometimes, as we know, mistakes are made in the selection of members of boards. I am at a loss to know what action the Government proposes to take in the appointment of its representative. I am wondering if the appointment will be made from the ranks of some retired pearlers in Melbourne or Sydney, from persons engaged in the industry in the north-west or north Australia; whether he will be selected because of his knowledge of the marketing of tropical marine products, or finally, if he will be selected from some government department. These are points upon which I should like to hav* information from the Minister. I understand, not from anything that has been said during the debate, but from the Minister himself in conversation, that it is intended to introduce a complementary measure to provide for the financing of the board's activities, and to enable the charges to be made. I do not know how the figure mentioned by the Minister was arrived at. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- By consulting the association. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- If those directly concerned are satisfied, I am content. But I should like to know what will be the position if the levy is too much or, on the other hand, not sufficient ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The proposed charge 13 the maximum which the board may levy within the limits of its powers. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- Then in the event of the maximum not being sufficient I take it that the board will make application to Parliament for additional authority. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- Yes. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- I again regret the absence of my colleague, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. Green),** because he has an intimate knowledge of the industry, and has done much useful work in connexion with it. I am sure that he is as anxious as any other honorable member, that the Government's proposal should be such as to place the industry on a better footing. {: #subdebate-39-0-s2 .speaker-K4Y} ##### Dr NOTT:
Herbert .- I am pleased to know that even in the dying hours of the present session the honorable the Minister for Markets and Migration **(Mr. Paterson),** has brought down the measure now before the House, and I hope that its passage will not be unduly delayed because, as is well known, those engaged in the production of pearl shell in Australia have for many years been suffering severely at the hands of Continental and American purchasers. The bill appears to me to be a satisfactory solution of our present difficulty, in that it will ensure a certain amount of co-ordination in marketing on the part of those engaged in the industry. The figures quoted by the honorable the Minister for Markets and Migration, disclosing the magnitude and ramifications of the industry, were, I have no doubt, a surprise to many honorable members, and need no recapitulation by me. I venture to say that very few were aware that the value of the Australian pearl-shell and associated industries was £500,000 a year. It has been suggested that Darwin pearlers, who produce a small quantity of shell, should, for the purpose of this bill, be incorporated with either the pearlers in Western Australia or Torres Strait. When the bill is in committee I hope that we shall be informed definitely whether the Darwin voters will be included in the representation of the Queensland group, or whether they will get their representation on the Western Australian side of the industry. Personally, in view of their trade facilities and geographical position I would suggest their allocation to Queensland. I feel sure that the interests of the industry will be safeguarded by the appointment of the proposed board ; but I suggest, and I trust the Minister will consider it favourably, that the Government nominee should be a highly trained and skilled scientist, whose special duty it should be to consider the many intricate problems that will be met with by the board in the discharge of its duties. The honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley),** suggested other industries, but I feel sure that the pearl shell industry is perhaps the least important of tropical marine industries that will rise in the near future from the immense potential wealth in the Barrier Reef. It is hardly possible to forecast the extent to which the sponge, trepang, and trochus shell industries will be developed, and I suggest for the earnest consideration of the Minister that it is highly desirable that one member of the board should be a trained scientist, who can bring a scientific appreciation of other developmental possibilities to bear on the resources of the tropical waters. I am glad also to know that at the outset the board will be appointed for only two years. It will have many difficult problems to handle, and since this proposal is largely in the nature of an experiment, it is wise at the start to limit its functions to a period of two years. Experience may suggest the advisableness of alterations in the personnel of the board, for the mutual benefit of all concerned in the industry. I regard the bill as a definite step in the direction of finalizing the unsuccessful efforts - unsuccessful only insofar as they have been handicapped by the adverse influence exerted in the Continental and American markets - to place the pearl shell industry in Australia in a better position. I welcome the bill, and reserve for the committee stage any further critical observations I may have to make. I trust its passage will not be delayed at any stage. Question resolved in the affirmativp. Bill read a second time. *In committee:* Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3 - >In this act, unless the contrary intention appears - " producer " means the owner of any pearling vessel or attendant schooner licensed by any State authority to carry on pearl-shell re- covery operations; {: #subdebate-39-0-s3 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I move - >That after the word " by " the following words be inserted: - "the Commonwealth, a Territory of the Commonwealth or" The object of the amendment is to enable the pearl-shellers at Darwin to exercise their right at the poll. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 4 - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. For the purpose of this act there shall be a Pearl-shell Overseas Marketing Board. (2.) The Board shall consist of - {: type="a" start="b"} 0. one member elected to represent the producers at Broome, Western Australia ; and 1. one member elected to represent the producers at Thursday Island and Torres Straits. {: #subdebate-39-0-s4 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I move - >That the words " at Broome, Western Australia " be left out with a view to inserting in lieu thereof " of the State of Western Australia." This amendment and the next one are consequential upon that which the committee made in clause 3. Amendment agreed to. Motion (by **Mr.** Paterson) agreed to - >That the words " at Thursday Island and Torres Straits " be left out with a view to inserting in lieu thereof the words " of the State of Queensland and the Territory of North Australia." {: #subdebate-39-0-s5 .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling .- Sub-clause 6 of the clause reads - >Each producer, whether an individual or company, shall have one vote in respect of each pearling vessel or attendant schooner owned by him. Did the members of the pearling associations agree to vote on that principle? {: #subdebate-39-0-s6 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- The basis of voting was arranged in consultation with the associations. We have not departed in this bill from the procedure that has been adopted in other measures of a similar character. In the Canned Fruits Export Control Bill it was provided that voting should be in proportion to the production of particular canneries, otherwise the arrangement would not have been satisfactory. The cooperative canneries last year produced something like 62 per cent, of the Australian pack, and actually exported 85 per cent, of it. If voting had been according to the number of canneries without taking into consideration their output, it is possible that the small canneries which exported an inconsiderable proportion of the total pack would have been in the majority. {: #subdebate-39-0-s7 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- When I visited Broome in 1916, as a member of the Pearling Commission, Messrs. Clark and Company controlled 130 of the 160 vessels engaged in the industry. If that firm is still operating, and if given a vote for each boat it controls, it will dominate the election. {: .speaker-K4Y} ##### Dr Nott: -- **Mr. James** Clark has sold out. {: #subdebate-39-0-s8 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Did he sell out to individual owners or to one company? It was difficult for anybody to buy even a pearling boat at Broome in 1916. {: #subdebate-39-0-s9 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- The method of voting was arranged in consultation with the Broome Pearl-Shell Association and the Torres Strait and Thursday Island Pearl-Shell Association. The Government has endeavoured to meet the wishes of these associations in every way. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 5 to 29 agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with amendments; report adopted. Bill read a third time. {: .page-start } page 984 {:#debate-40} ### PEARL-SHELL EXPORT CHARGES BILL *In Committee of Ways and Means.* Motion (by **Mr. Paterson)** agreed to - >That a charge at the rate of three pounds for each ton of pearl-shell be imposed on all pearl-shell exported from the Commonwealth, after a date fixed by Proclamation, under the Act passed to give effect to this resolution, subject to a lower rate being prescribed by regulations made under that Act. > >That the charge imposed in pursuance of this resolution shall cease to be imposed upon a date fixed by Proclamation under the Act passed to give effect to this resolution as the date upon which that Act shall cease to be in force. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended. Resolution adopted. *Ordered -* >That **Mr. Paterson** and **Mr. Hill** do prepare and bring in abill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented by **Mr. Paterson** and read a first time. {:#subdebate-40-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-40-0-s0 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I move - >That the bill be now read a second time. The object of this bill is to levy a charge at a rate not exceeding £3 on each ton of pearl shell exported from the Commonwealth. The money so raised is to be paid into a fund to finance the operations of the Pearl-shell Overseas Marketing Board, as laid down by the Pearl-shell Overseas Marketing Bill which honorable members have just passed. The rate of £3 is the maximum that can be levied ; if the Board finds that it can finance itself on a smaller levy, it may require a smaller amount to be collected. Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 984 {:#debate-41} ### WIRE AND WIRE-NETTING BILL {:#subdebate-41-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-41-0-s0 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I move - >That the bill be now read a second time. The object of this bill is to give effect to' the policy which the Government laid down at the last election in respect of wire and wire netting. Under an Act passed in 1928, an amount of £250,000 was appropriated to assist the State Governments to supply settlers with wire and wire netting on . easy terms, to enable them to combat such pests as rabbits, dingoes, and wallabies. The money provided under that measure has been exhausted. Some little time ago the Government decided to bring down more comprehensive proposals than those contained in the previous act. It is intended to make available a total amount of £3,000,000 for the purposes of this bill, to be expended at the rate of £500,000 per annum for six years, with interest at a rate which represents a substantial concession to the States. Honorable members will recol- lect that when the Estimates were under consideration last year, a sum of £500,000 was provided for the purposes of this bill. It is proposed to apportion the money between the States partly on an area basis and partly on a stock population basis. The amount that will be allocated to each State will be the mean between the amount to which the State would be entitled on an area basis and the amount to which it would be entitled on a sheep plus cattle basis. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- Will there be an adjustment each year ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- No. The basis will be the stock population in 1925. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- Is it proposed to alter the basis previously adopted *1* {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- Yes. The basis upon which the previous loan of £250,000 was made available was similar to that upon which the roads grant was made to the States - a human population and an area basis. That has been changed. A stock population and an area basis appears to be more reasonable in respect of a loan for the purchase of wire netting. Assuming that every State accepted the offer of the Commonwealth, the amount of £500,000 would be divided in the following way: - The offer of the Government met with a fairly ready response from the States of Western Australia, Queensland, and Victoria; but the Government did not proceed with the proposal last year because it hoped that other States would join in. I may mention that the quotas of the three States that I have named, together with those of Central and Northern Australia, will absorb approximately 62 per cent. of the total sum appropriated for this purpose. Application to come into the scheme has not been made by the remaining States, and the Government considers that, in fairness to those who are prepared to accept the offer, it should proceed with it. Western Australia has already purchased over 2,000 miles of wire netting for its settlers, in anticipation of this proposal materializing, and it has been informed that the Commonwealth is prepared to ante-date the loan to the 1st of July, 1926, so that it will apply to purchases that have been made during the current financial year. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- Has the Queensland Government so far purchased any quantity of wire netting ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- I have not heard that it has. I shall outline the chief features of the scheme, for the benefit of honorable members. Advances will be made to those States which are prepared to purchase wire netting of Australian manufacture, and issue it to settlers who apply for it, at cost price, plus £1 a mile, which they will be permitted to charge under the agreement, to cover expenses of administration. The State will pay per annum to the Commonwealth 4 per cent, interest and 2 per cent, for a sinking fund for a period of 25 years. The 2 per cent, sinking fund, at compound interest, will extinguish the indebtedness at the end of 25 years. Although it is reasonably accurate to say that the States will be expected to pay to the Commonwealth an interest rate of 4 per cent., the actual terms of the agreement provide for the granting of an interest concession, amounting to at least 1 per cent., on the rate at which the money is borrowed by the Commonwealth, the maximum charge not to exceed 4 per cent. Thus, if the Commonwealth borrowed for this purpose at a Tate of 5J per cent., the States would enjoy a concession of *1%* per cent. In the event - perhaps unlikely - of the Commonwealth raising money at a rate lower than 5 per cent., the States will obtain it at a less rate than 4 per cent. The honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Foster)** has a practical knowledge of the life of wire netting, and I believe he will agree that the Commonwealth has acted reasonably in fixing the period for the extinction of the debt at 25 years. I own wire netting that has been in the ground for twenty years, and has not yet deteriorated perceptibly. Doubtless a great deal depends upon the class of country in which the wire is placed. Under the agreement the settler will pay to the State an interest rate of not more than 5 per cent., in addition to the sinking fund of 2 per cent. In the event of the Commonwealth charging a State 4 per cent., it will have the privilege of charging its settlers up to 5 per cent. That makes the provision sufficiently elastic to fit in with State schemes that are already in existence. I understand that the Victorian Government has or had a scheme for the supply of wire netting at a rate of 41/4 per cent. It and other States similarly situated will be in a position to make the new arrangements conform with their existing practice. It is permissible for the States to charge 1 per cent, more than they pay to the Common weal th . {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- The State will be responsible to the Government in respect to redemption? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- That is so. We shall not have any direct dealings with settlers. We merely wish to assist the States financially, to enable them to supply their settlers with wire netting on easy terms. The agreement provides that receipts from excess charges may not be paid into the Consolidated Revenue of the States, but must be placed to the credit of a fund for the future provision of wire netting. In process of time, if that principle is continued, such a fund will amount to a considerable sum, and probably make the States entirely independent of the Commonwealth. The interest derived from the operation of that fund will be the property of the State to use as it thinks fit. The State will be expected to accept the class of security that it would accept for wire netting provided out of its own fund. No restrictions other than those which I have mentioned will be imposed upon the States ; but in the event of any State declining an application for assistance by a settler the Commonwealth naturally desires to be notified of the circumstances, so that it may answer complaints that are made directly to it. It willbe noticed that the amounts allotted to the States are not stated in the bill. They will, of course, be limited to the sum 'which is appropriated by this Parliament from year to year. It is possible that in future years this House may desire to either reduce or increase the appropriatio n. In such an event an amendment of the measure would be necessary if it included the different quotas. ' Unfortunately, an early draft of the bill has been printed, making it necessary for me tosubmit one or two minor amendments in com mittee. The first proposes to antedate the bill to the commencement of the present financial year, so as to validate payments to Western Australia on account of wire netting purchased in anticipation of the passage of the measure. A clause of the bill, as printed, reads - >For the purpose of giving effect to this act in the States the Minister may enter into agreements with the States in accordance with the form in the schedule of this act. > >For the purpose of giving effect to this act in Northern Australia and Central Australia the Minister may enter into agreements with the Government residents of those territories in accordance with the form in the schedule of this act. I think it will be agreed that it would be undesirable to compel the Government to enter into agreements with officials who have been appointed by it, andI shall submit an amendment to remove that necessity. {: #subdebate-41-0-s1 .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING:
Macquarie .- Those who are acquainted with the very great damage which is done bv pests of various kinds in different parts of Australia must appreciate this action of the Government. I well remember the passing of the former act. The late **Sir Austin** Chapman was then Minister for Trade and Customs. The bill differs from it in several ways. Previous advances have been made out of surplus revenue, whereas in future loan funds willbe drawn on. Some of the States have already made provision for the supply of wire netting to their settlers. I should like to have a little further information as to the necessity for allowing the States to charge settlers 1 per cent, more than they pay to the Commonwealth Government. I do not know that New South Wales will require any of thi3 money. It had a fund for a similar purpose for many years; but unfortunately it was insufficient to meet requirements! Prior to the advent of the present Administration in that State, **Mr. Wearne,** who was then Minister of Lands, insisted on ample funds being made available. Under the last agreement between New South Wales and the Commonwealth with respect to wire netting, the money allotted could be paid only to necessitous settlers. In New South Wales the State netting is distributed through the Pastures Protection Boards, and there is no danger of loss, because if loss occurred it had to be borne by the boards, and they therefore naturally made a close investigation into the financial position of applicants for assistance, and did not grant loans or guarantee repayment unless there was a reasonable chance of the settlers meeting their obligations. There were a number of settlers in New South Wales at that time whose only hope of succeeding was by obtaining netting; but the boards, being in the position of trustees, did not feel justified in recommending advances to them. The action of the Commonwealth Government in making that advance to the State for the purchase of netting has given those men a chance of getting netting and making a success of their land. I wish to know to what extent the amount already advanced to New South Wales has been repaid. The State Government undertook to collect it, but there was1 no guarantee that it would be repaid. I understand that New South Wales has not yet accepted the present proposal. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · CP from 1922; ST CP from 1937; LCP from 1940 -- It has not signed the new agreement. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING: -- If it does, it will pass on the obligation to the Pastures Protection Boards. The extra charge of £1 per mile is intended to cover the cost of administration. As the New South Wales Government will be guaranteed against loss, I fail to see why it should be allowed to charge 1 per cent, more than it will have to pay to the Commonwealth for the money advanced. Any benefit on account of cheap money should go, not to the State Governments, but to the settlers who need wire netting. I was a member of a Pastures Protection Board for many years, and I know exactly the precautions that we used to take to guard against loss. In adverse seasons settlers sometimes would be unable tomake repayment; but during the years that I was a member practically no loss was experienced on that account. With a mortgagee's consent, a wire netting advance was always made a first call on a property. In the event of a mortgagee withholding his consent, the board declined to take the responsibility of advancing money. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- The measure will apply largely to settlers on leased land. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING: -- In New South Wales practically all lessees had the right of ultimate conversion of their leasehold to freehold, and therefore their security was good. I do not wish to delay the passage of the bill. The Government is to be commended for having brought it forward ; but we should be told iu detail the reason for the extra charge of 1 per cent. {: #subdebate-41-0-s2 .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra .- I listened carefully to the Minister's explanation of the bill, and tried to discover the reason for bringing it forward. I have no objection to any measure that will assist the settlers, particularly those who are battling in the outback country, to prevent the inroads of vermin. Those men require all the assistance that can be legitimately given to them; but what is the use pretending that we are handing over half a million of money to them ? Nothing of the kind is proposed. We are merely lending money to the States at 1 per cent, less than it costs us, and the States in turn will lend it to the settlers. The settlers will be responsible to the States for the repayment of the money, and the States to the Commonwealth. All that the Commonwealth does is to make a present to -the States equivalent to 1 per cent, of the total amount advanced. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- It should be remembered that the Commonwealth furnishes the credit, without which the money could not be obtained. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I have yet to learn that the States are unable to obtain sufficient money to be able to make advances to settlers for the purchase of netting. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- If the honorable member lived in Queensland, he would be disillusioned on that point. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The State Governments are anxious to take advantage of this measure. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I have no doubt that the States will be very ready to accept money at a low rate of interest. The bill merely amounts to making a present, either to the State Governments or to the settlers, of money at 1 per cent, less than the interest rate paid by the Commonwealth, It sounds well to say that £250,000 has been advanced to settlers for wire netting in one ' year, and that a grant of £500,000 has been made in another. If the Commonwealth desires to grant £5,000 by way of a reduction in interest charges to the States, to induce them to assist settlers, let us be frank about the matter and make a straightout donation to the States of that sum. This Government has set the whole country by the ears by the withdrawal of the *per capita* payments, on the ground that the Commonwealth should not interfere with the domestic affairs of the States, and that Commonwealth and State finances should be kept separate. We were told that it was a pernicious principle for money raised by one authority to be spent by another. The whole thing is like a jigsaw puzzle. I do not think that we should separate Commonwealth and State finances, where that would cause a lot of trouble; but we should do it as far as we practically can. Naturally the States reach out eagerly for this grant of cheap money; but why is it proposed to dictate to them the formula upon which the allocation will be made? On the last occasion the distribution was made on the basis of population and area. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- We have improved upon that. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I do not know that the proposed arrangement is an improvement. The basis on which the money will be allotted is the number of stock. Paterson. - Sheep and cattle. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- That may or may not be a good formula. It may be argued that on many big cattle stations no wire netting. is used and none is required. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- Not even wire fences. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- No fences of any description are employed. Will the stock in such areas be taken into account in alloting the money? Let us assume that the whole of the stock in a State are depastured on huge runs where no fences have been erected. Will that State receive a large proportion of the proposed grant ? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- The erection of wire netting fences might make the land capable of being used for raising sheep instead of cattle. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- But the wire netting is required for sheep country. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- It may be used for excluding wild dogs, wallabies, and rabbits. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I am merely testing the argument of the Minister, and showing that a perfect formulahas not yet been obtained. Distribution on the basi3 of population and area did not prove satisfactory, and I do not believe that the formula now proposed will be acceptable to all parties. It is a cumbersome principle for the Commonwealth to attempt to allocate money among the various States for matters that are undeniably the direct concern of the States themselves. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The rabbit knows no boundaries. He is a unificationist. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- The States being defined by certain boundaries, we must respect the arrangement and legislate accordingly. One can be a unificationist, and yet leave to the States control of certain matters within their own borders. I am not opposing the bill, but I see nothing in it except that it provides money for the States at 1 per cent, less than the Commonwealth will have to pay. The State Government will be able to charge the settler whatever interest it likes. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- No. It cannot charge more than 5 per cent. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- Why should the States be allowed to make any profit over the transaction ? Ifthe desire is to assist the settlers, they should be given the advantage of the cheapest money available. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- The idea is to build up another fund in the interests of the settlers {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- Why should the States be required to place the extra 1 per cent, into a fund for the benefit of future generations? Such a round-about method is puzzling. Does the bill deal with the basis on which the money is to be allocated? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- No; for reasons that I have given. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- That basis should be set out in the schedule, and the sum to be advanced should be mentioned. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The bill alludes to such amounts as may be appropriated from time to time. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I realize that, but the Minister has mentioned the sum of £500,000. Clause 2 of the schedule provides that the wire netting must be of Australian manufacture unless otherwise approved by the Minister. A few days ago I asked how much of the wire netting purchased in 1923 was of Australian manufacture. I have not yet received a reply, and I should like to know if the Minister could give me the information now. The House might reasonably be put in possession of it when asked to provide a further advance for the purchase of netting. I shall not oppose the bill. It simply means that the Commonwealth floats a loan, and lends the money to the States, the States in turn lending it to the settlers. The only advantage they gain is 1 per cent, on £500,000. {: #subdebate-41-0-s3 .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 .- It is unnecessary to say anything in commendation of the purpose of the bill. Any one who knows anything of rural conditions knows that wire netting is one of the greatest requirements of the settler. I am afraid, however, that the provision allowing 25 years for the repayment of the advance may prevent some States from taking advantage of the money proposed to be made available. For instance, a most excellent system of advances for wire netting and all other kinds of fencing material has been in operation in South Australia probably ever since rabbits first became a menace to the settlers ; but the period covered by the repayment is only 20 years, compared with the 25 years' period provided for in this bill. The settler makes application to the local governing body or district council, and the application, if approved, is sent on to the Minister for Lands, who makes the money available from government funds. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- The Minister advances the money from funds already obtained from the Commonwealth. It is a lovely piece of circumlocution. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- South Australia has a better system than that provided for in the bill. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- I want to know whether, because of the 25 years' period, South Australia will be debarred from participating in the benefits given by this bill. The South Australian settler pays off each year one-twentieth of the capital advanced, plus interest on the balance outstanding, at the rate of interest paid by the State for the money. If the State borrows at 4 per cent., the settler gets his advance at 4 per cent. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition could not recall any instance of the States being unable to secure loan moneys out of which to make advances to the settlers for the purchase of wire netting. There have been many occasions in South Australia when the vote has been exhausted, and the settlers have been obliged to wait until the next financial year to obtain advances. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- That occurs everywhere, but does not touch on the State's inability to obtain loans. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- I am merely pointing out that there are occasions when money is not available. I understand that at present South Australian settlers who have obtained advances are paying 6 per cent. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- They may be doing so to-day. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- Some settlers who obtained loans nearly 20 years ago are paying 4 per cent, or less. As the local governing authorities in South Australia are very careful in their recommendations, and as the person who takes up an abandoned holding is obliged to pay the instalments due on it to the district council, there are very few arrears of repayments. I have no fault to find with the proposal to make money available to the States for the purchase of wire and wire netting ; but I object to the Commonwealth providing a restriction which may conflict with a system already in operation in a State. I hope, therefore, that such arrangements will be made as will enable South Australia to receive the assistance offered and apply it to its present system of advances to settlers. {: #subdebate-41-0-s4 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong .- It makes one laugh to realize that a few days ago the Government was declaring that the *per capita* payments to the States must cease because Commonwealth and State finances could not be mixed up, and to-day it is asking us to pass a bill under which the finances of the Commonwealth, States, municipalities, and individuals in the States will be mixed up. The wording of the schedule to the bill is somewhat peculiar. For instance, in paragraph 1 of the agreement we find the following : - >The Commonwealth shall advance to the State .... such amounts (not exceeding the amounts required by the State), &c. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- Could one imagine the Commonwealth advancing more than the State required? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- A whole series of conditions is laid down as to what a State shall do when the money is advanced to the local authority; and, no doubt, in turn the local authority will issue all sorts of warnings to the settler. But it will be the shire engineer who will finally determine the conditions under which the settler will obtain his wire or wire netting. Victoria has in operation a system similar to that of South Australia. The State advances money to the local authority, and the latter in its turn deals with the settler in its area. The honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** should be interested in paragraph 2 of the agreement, which says - >All wire and wire netting to bc purchased by the State pursuant to this agreement shall, unless otherwise approved in writing by the Minister, be of Australian manufacture. Very often our State instrumentalities make it a practice to obtain their iequirements from overseas. They may call for quotations from local manufacturers, but the conditions they lay down often render it impossible for the local manufacturer to quote prices or supply the quantities required. For instance, a department may say, " We want 4,000 miles of wire netting to-morrow." It knows full well the impossibility of getting that quantity from the local manufacturer, and immediately calls upon an importing house to furnish the material. In Newcastle and in other parts of Australia wire netting of the very best quality is being manufactured. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- It costs the settler a great deal *more* than the British. {: #subdebate-41-0-s5 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP; UAP from 1931 -- If the Australian manufacturer is given a reasonable time in which to supply the netting, he can turn it out in quality and at a price equal to that which comes from the other side of the world. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr Manning: -- The Australian wire netting is the best in the world. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP; UAP from 1931 -- I know that it is. One can get dirt-cheap wire netting with a big mesh or flimsy wire which would not last for the 25 years which the Minister hopes will be the lifetime of the wire procured with the assistance given by the Commonwealth advance. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The wire I referred to was 17-gauge. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Is the Minister insisting on the use of 17-gauge? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- No. That is a matter for the States. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am not altogether enamoured of the way in which the States control this money. I may be rather doubtful about the fiscal proclivities of the Commonwealth Minister in charge of the administration of this legislation; but I would have greater faith in his attitude towards Australian industries than I would have in regard to that of some State Ministers. It is quite reasonable to anticipate the latter coming to the Commonwealth Minister with the old gag about not being able to get the locallymanufactured netting within a sufficient time, and asking him to allow them to buy direct from the importer. Why should the wishes of the national parliament, which is almost wholly protectionist in character, be hindered by the desire of a State Minister to secure his supplies from the other side of the world? In every bill of this sort we should insist on the use of Australian produce or goods made in Australia. The taxpayers who have elected this parliament are almost unanimously in favour of giving every possible protection to the local manufacturers, and I trust that the Minister will make that clear to the States. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- It is provided for in the bill. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- But under certain conditions only. The Minister may be asked to give his consent to the purchase of wire netting other than that manufactured in Australia, and I hope that he will insist as far as possible on the use of Australian-made wire netting. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.* {: #subdebate-41-0-s6 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr FOSTER:
Wakefield .- I am aware that the Government has a great deal of business to get through tonight, and it is, therefore, with great reluctance that I occupy very valuable time in addressing myself to this measure. I can assure honorable members that it should be very closely scrutinized and considered before it is assented to. It is a lively reminder of a bill which was introduced three or four years ago by the then Minister for Trade and Customs, which was the most absurd and ridiculous measure ever submitted to a Parliament of a civilized country. So ridiculous was it that when the attention of the Prime Minister was called to it, he had it immediately withdrawn and another substituted for it. It contained no provision whatever for the repayment of advances, and was simply a bold bid- {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Go on. Let the honorable member tell us what it was. Mr.FOSTER.- I could not properly describe it without the use of terms which I know would be out of order. The bill now before- us is one of somewhat similar complexion. It is another distinct and unjustifiable interference with legislation which should be left to the State Parliaments. I am sure that the bill was drafted, possibly under instructions from a Minister, by some one who did not in any sense understand the problem of supplying wire netting, barbed wire, and fencing wire for the suppression of rabbits and dingoes. No man who understood the subject would have submitted a measure on these lines. I ask honorable members to say whether this bill is not an unnecessary meddling with things with which the Commonwealth Parliament has nothing whatever to do, though I would not object to assistance beng given to an impecunious State unable alone to deal with the problem" of the suppression of vermin. I shall refer to one instance which will enable honorable members to form their own conclusions as to whether as a general principle this measure comes within the range of legitimate consideration by the Commonwealth Parliament. The difficulty with which the measure is intended to deal is not new. It is over 30 years old. The principle upon which this bill is based was adopted in South Australia at a time of the most severe stress ever experienced in any of the States. At that time wool was selling at from 4d. to 5d. per lb., and wheat at 2s. per bushel. Vermin were taking possession of the interior portion of South Australia and of the other States as well. South Australia in her relative condition of poverty tackled this vital question. The Government created vermin districts, and supplied district councils with wire to enable them to cope with both the rabbit and dingo pests. It said to the pastoral lessees in the far-back country, " "We will assist you to deal with these pests of rabbits and dingoes that are devastating the country, and rendering it absolutely worthless. "We will give you long leases and provide you with the necessary wire netting for dog-proof and rabbit-proof fences. We will divide the country in the interior into suitable divisions to be called " vermin districts." " You must accept liability in your leases for the cost involved, and we will give you 21 years for its repayment." That liability was attached to every lease. The Government advertised for tenders for the materials required, and the shipping companies put in tenders and brought the materials, from the other side of the world, instead of ballasting, as stiffening for their ships. They were thus able to supply them at the lowest possible price. As a result of the action then taken by the South Australian Government the dingo was driven out, and to-day the outback stations of South Australia have given a wool-clip that has been the salvation of the State, and without which it could not have been in a solvent position. It is no pleasure to me to intervene in order to discuss this very important question; but I must say that the measure which has now been introduced reflects no credit upon the Commonwealth Government. I hope the further consideration of the bill will be adjourned until there has been time for consultation with experts from the districts which it is intended to assist. I know that the Prime Minister realizes that these things should be done on a business basis. We shall be held accountable later on, if not now, for the adoption of this policy. I have given an example from the experience of South Australia, and I can give another from the western division of New South Wales, the wealthiest of the States. About twelve years ago there were no fewer than 12,000,000 sheep in the western divsion of New South Wales, and I can appeal to the honorable member for Macquarie(Mr. Manning) to say how many are there now. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr Manning: -- It is 30 years ago since there were 12,000,000 sheep there. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr FOSTER: -- It is not fifteen years since there were 12,000,000 sheep there. But what is the position to-day? Isay there are not 4,500,000 sheep there now. I am not opposed to the spirit of this legislation, but the Commonwealth Government, instead of going into details, should deal in this matter with the State Governments. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- That is what it is doing. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr FOSTER: -- It is doing that, and a very great deal more. .It is laying down conditions and meddling with things that it does not understand. Any man possessed of a knowledge of the outside country would know on reading this bill that the man responsible for its provisions was never 100 miles away from a big city. I should like to speak on this subject for an hour, because I understand the. question. I have not the time to consider the measure in detail, but I do intend to make a very definite protest against it. I challenge the Government to submit it to expert pastoralists who know something about the outback country, and I shall have no more to say if they approve of this measure. I know what the pastoral situation was 30 or 35 years ago. In South Australia at that time we had the sanest Labour party that ever existed in any State of the Commonwealth. Labour men said that the people were still in the grasp of the squatters. Like other portions of the Continent, South Australia is accustomed to droughts, and I, as a representative of some of the interior country in the State Parliament, said to the Labour members - " For God's sake come with me "on a trip to see what is happening, and how these men are trying, against impossible odds, to hold that country." They went with me, and on their return said: "We shall give to them the most liberal conditions; they may have the country for nothing, if they will occupy and use it." Later came the effort to get rid of the dingo and the rabbit, and the result has been that the wool clips for the last twelve or fifteen years have kept South Australia solvent without, having to cry to another Government for aid. If honorable members do not understand this proposal, they should press the Government to defer its consideration until there is more time to thoroughly discuss it. If the Government will rush through in a few hours a proposal that should receive at least a fortnight's consideration, I disclaim all responsibility. {: #subdebate-41-0-s7 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- I commend the Government for this proposal to lend money to the States for advances to settlers who desire to obtain wire and wire netting, but I object to the provision which allows the Minister to decide whether the material shall be imported or Australian-made. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- That is a detail. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- It is a very important one. The wire-drawers in my electorate, and in Victoria, cannot get rid of their product, and the Minister would be well advised to consent to the elimination of those words in the bill which give to him authority to say that imported wire and wire netting may be used. Such a provision is almost criminal. In committee I shall pursue this matter further. {: #subdebate-41-0-s8 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .- When this Parliament granted £250,000 for the supply of wire netting to settlers who could not finance themselves, the amount was apportioned among the States. The Labour Minister for Lands in Western Australia **(Mr. Angwin)** sent a protest to the Western Australian representatives in this Parliament, and I repeated it in this chamber, against the principle which the honorable member for Newcastle has just advocated. **Mr. Angwin** pointed out that had the use of local material not been insisted upon eight more indigent settlers could have been provided with wire netting from the small proportion of the grant that was allotted to Western Australia. Is this House genuinely intent upon assisting the settlers to get wire netting, or is it more concerned with boosting up a couple of huge manufacturing combines? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- There is no combine. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- I remind the honorable member that the Australian people have paid a bounty amounting to approximately £466,000 to the two manufacturers of wire and wire netting. On top of that, is it fair to further handicap the settlers by placing an embargo on honest competition by manufacturers abroad ? In reply to a question asked bv me, the Minister for Trade and Customs admitted that wire netting made in Australia is being sold in New Zealand at a lower price than that at which it is supplied to Australian settlers. It is disgraceful to confer these advantages upon manufacturers who axe not prepared to give a fair deal to our own people. The object of paying the bounty to them was to enable them to become established, and compete honestly with the makers of imported wire and wire netting. The State I have the honour to represent is 2,000 miles from the two factories in the eastern States, and the freights on this material aire heavy. Having paid these firms such a large sum by way of bounty, the Government should not penalize the settlers by a condition such as that to which I am referring. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- Does the honorable member know that Newcastle wire is sold in Fremantle at the same price as in Newcastle ? {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- I know that it is being sold in New Zealand more cheaply. The bounty was intended to put the wire and wire-netting manufacturers on a competitive basis, and it is not right to boost up, at the expense of the settlers, two companies that pay bigger dividends than the farmers are ever likely to obtain. {: #subdebate-41-0-s9 .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT .- I congratulate the Government and the Ministry upon the introduction of this bill. For a considerable time the settlers in Queensland have been trying to obtain wire netting, but have not been able to procure it under existing conditions. Every legislative provision has been made for protecting the State and providing the netting, but apparently there have been financial difficulties which this bill will relieve. Very large areas in Queeusland which are at present being used for cattle-raising are quite suitable for the production of high class wool, which is a much more profitable crop to the State, to those engaged in the industry, and to Australia as a whole, because there is a definite and assured market in which it can compete against the wool of the world. We are not able to sell our beef at a profitable price, and accordingly the position of the cattle industry is not at all satisfactory. Many cattle growers do not look with a hostile eye on the dingo; on the contrary, they regard it as rather a friendly animal. They point out that, in ordinary seasons, the dingo keeps the marsupials in check, and never touches the calves except in the dry seasons, and then only when the mothers have to leave them unprotected while they go some distance for water. The pastoralist argues that it is better to lose the calf than to lose both cow and calf. The loss of the calf is rather a benefit, because it happens at a time when grass is scarce and a diminution of the herd can best be afforded. Unfortunately the dingoes invade adjacent sheen runs in search of the sheep and lambs, which are easier prey, consequently, it is necessary to fence the runs in areas that are infested with these vermin. Many small men are merely awaiting the opportunity to get wire netting on reasonable terms, in order to change over from cattle-raising to woolproduction. In Southern Queensland, it is necessary to provide the small pastoralist with rabbit-proof netting also, so that they may be able to grow sheep on country that is suitable and free of dingoes. This bill will give relief to a large number of men throughout the State who are anxious to go in for the more profitable business of sheep raising, but are deterred by the difficulty of getting wire netting. One distinct improvement in the bill is the alteration of the basis upon which the money is to be allocated. The Minister is to take into consideration both the area and the stock population of each State, and will take as a basis of calculation the year 1925, which was a fairly even period throughout the Commonwealth, whereas 3926 was notoriously a bad year in Queensland. The honorable member for Yarra **(Mr. Scullin)** referred to the *per capita* payments. One defect in those payments was that they took into account merely the number of people in each State, and not the area to be developed. The only sound basis for the apportionment of Commonwealth aid is the taking into account of area as well as population, or stock, as the case may be. I question the right of the States to make a profit out of this transaction. They will be entitled to charge the settler £1 per mile to cover administrative expenses and losses; but .those expenses should be adequately covered by the 1 per cent, of profit that they will be permitted to make. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- They may not use the 1 per cent, profit for that purpose. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- The uses to which they may put it are not very clear They will get the £1 per mile and the 1 per cent., and apparently the application of these moneys is to be in the discretion of the States, {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- It is not. There is a condition in the agreement. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- Paragraph 9 of the agreement reads- >In addition to the payments to be made to the State by settlers, as provided in clause 7 of this agreement, the State may - > >charge each settler a sum at the rate of one pound (£1) per mile of wire netting supplied to the settler to cover administration expenses and losses. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The honorable member should read paragraph 8 of the schedule. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- Paragraph 8 reads - >Where the amount received by the State from settlers inrespect of wire or wire netting supplied to the settlers exceeds the amount required to bo paid to the Commonwealth by the State, in pursuance of clause C of this agreement, the State shall pay the amount of the excess to the credit of a trust fund to be utilized during the currency of the agreement for the purpose of purchasing wire and wire netting, to be supplied to settlers on the same terms as wire and wire netting purchased with the amounts advanced to the State under this agreement. The agreement gives to the States that extra money, but it is only a matter of juggling with figures. The States may use the specific £1 under paragraph 9 ostensibly to cover administration expenses and losses, and take the 1 per cent, profit under paragraph 7 for the purpose of purchasing wire and wire netting other than under this agreement; but the money that the States would have advanced under normal circumstances for the purchase of wire and wire netting would then be used for whatever purpose they thought fit. They get the money, and it does not matter for what purpose it is used. However, that is a small matter, except that I should like the settlers to get the benefit of the 1 per cent, which will now go to the States. I am certain that Queensland would be quite willing that the settlers should have that benefit. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The States may give the settlers the benefit under the agreement. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- That is doubtful in view of the way in which the agreement is framed. If paragraph 7 of the agreement were amended to make it possible for the States to give to the settlers the benefit of the 1 per cent., it would be entirely acceptable to me. I am entirely in sympathy with the bill, and I hope that it will speedily pass this House, so that the settlers may derive immediate benefit from its operations. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In committee:* Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 (Definition). {: #subdebate-41-0-s10 .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- I should like to ask the Minister why he defines "wire" as fencing wire and not wire netting. Wire netting embraces three kinds of netting, rabbit-proof, dogproof, and marsupial-proof . {: #subdebate-41-0-s11 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP .- The more we define " wire netting " the more we limit the term. It may mean wire netting, marsupial-proof, dog-proof, or rabbit-proof netting. I have seen wire netting with a 3-in. mesh used to block wallabies. Clause agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to. Clause 5 - (1.) For the purposes of giving effect to this act in the States, the Minister may enter into agreements with the States in accordance with the form in the schedule to this act. (2.) For the purpose of giving effect to this act in North Australia and Central Australia, the Minister may enter into agreements with the Government Residents of those Territories in accordance with the form in the schedule to this act with such modifications and adaptations as are necessary or desirable. Amendment (by **Mr. Paterson-)** agreed to : - >That sub-clause (2) be omitted. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 6 agreed to. {: #subdebate-41-0-s12 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP .- I move - >That the following new clause be inserted : - " 1a. This act shall be deemed to have commenced on the first day of July, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-six." The new clause will enable payments to be made to Western Australia as from the beginning of this financial year, in order to cover purchases of netting that have already been made in anticipation of the passage of this measure. New clause agreed to. {: #subdebate-41-0-s13 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I move - >That the following new clause be inserted : - 5a. - (1.) For the purposes of giving effect to this act in North Australia and Central Australia, the Minister may, out of the moneys standing to the credit of the Trust Account, make advances to North Australia and Central Australia for the purchase of wire and wire netting. (2.) Any wire or wire netting so purchased may be supplied to settlers in North Australia and Central Australia at such price, upon such conditions and security, and subject to such terms as to payment, as are prescribed. (3.) Any moneys received by way of payment for wire and wire netting supplied to settlers in North Australia or Central Australia under this act shall be paid to the Trust Account. This new clause will obviate the necessity of the Commonwealth Government making agreements with its own officials - the Government Residents of Central and Northern Australia. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Foster: -- Is there any limit to the amount of appropriation for the purposes of the agreement ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON: -- On the last page of this year's Estimates is an amount of £500,000 set aside for the purpose of assisting the States and North and Central Australia to purchase wire netting for settlers. The advances are limited to that amount. {: #subdebate-41-0-s14 .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN:
Batman .- It appears to me that the Minister is introducing a very important and far-reaching clause. The bill makes provision for loan moneys to be paid to the States, and also for the States, through their machinery, to distribute wire netting according to the reasonable needs of the settlers. As there is no one in the Commonwealth Territory with whom we can make an agreement, the distribution of wire netting there will remain in the hands of the Commonwealth authorities. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- It will be distributed through the local governing bodies. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN: -- What local governing bodies are there in the Northern Territory ? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- There are the two commissions and two councils. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN: -The Northern Territory is a land of magnificent distances. I regard the whole scheme with a certain amount of anxiety, but when it comes to wire-netting the Northern Territory without the supervision of any responsible local body, then my apprehension increases. Had the Minister made provision in the bill for constituting the commission, or any other body, as a local authority, it would have given some safeguard; but no one has been nominated by the Minister. I should like to be sure that we have some authoritative body, possessed of local knowledge, to deal with the distribution of wire netting in the Northern Territory, and some certainty of communication between the users of the netting and those responsible for its distribution. The new clause seems to be an afterthought, as far as the Northern Territory is concerned. Like the honorable member for Kennedy **(Mr. G. Francis),** I hope that the money will be well spent. This being the end of the session, we are in the mood in which we distributed largesse. This afternoon we handed out of Pandora's Box about half a million pounds as a bounty on the export of wine, and this evening we hand out another half million for wire netting. We are in a generous mood, as we are about to leave for Canberra. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- The two proposals are different. The money in the one case, is to buy wire netting, and in the other to provide for abounty on wine. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN: -- The circumstances are always said to be different. Naturally, the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** takes a different view of half a million pounds for wire netting from that taken by the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Foster)** of a proposal to provide for a bounty on doradilla grapes. I hope that due care will be taken in the distribution of this money, especially in the Northern Territory, where there is no local authority at present nominated, or even suggested, that will be able to look after it. New clause agreed to. Schedule - {: type="1" start="2"} 0. All wire and wire netting to be pur chased by the State pursuant to this agreement shall unless otherwise approved in writing by the Minister be of Australian manufacture. 7. (1) Subject to this agreement the State undertakes that thesupply to a settler in the State of any wire or wire netting purchased with any amount advanced under this agreement shall be upon the condition that the liability of the settler to the State in respect of the wire or wire netting so supplied shall be discharged if the settler pays to the State half-yearly for twenty-five years. {: #subdebate-41-0-s15 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- I move - >That in clause 2 of the schedule, the words " unless otherwise approved in writing by the Minister " be left out. The effect of the amendment will be to compel purchasers of wire and wire netting to buy the Australian article. It is time that this Commonwealth Parliament began to listen to reason on this matter. I do not object to government assistance to the farmers, but I cannot lose sight of the struggles of those who have endeavoured, in the face of great difficulties, to draw wire in this country. I know that they have tried to meet the wishes of the Country party in all the States The only tariff questions dealt with this session have related to items of interest to the Country party, and although I have supported them, I suggest that it is time we started to take an Australian view. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Ask the members of the Country party to do the same thing for the wire manufacturers a3 was done today for the rice-growers. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- That was one of the most shameful things ever done in this House. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- It was done in the interests of the rice-growers, and the honorable member's interjection is quite un-Australian. I remember the honorable member some time ago talking of combines, and I remind him that the one industry that " has arranged with the Tariff Board to sell its products at the same price in Fremantle as .Newcastle is the industry to which this bill applies. It is time to call a halt, and place the Australian first and the foreigner last. {: .speaker-KVU} ##### Mr Thompson: -- The flat rate for wire netting shows that too much is being charged for it at Newcastle. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- That is positively not so. Those honorable members who have visited the works and inspected the wire netting have admitted that it is as good as any that can be produced. lt is time that Australians began to realize that something good can be produced in Australia. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- The trouble is that the man on the land cannot obtain the wire netting. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- In my electorate the shops are full of it, and the shopkeepers cannot sell it. {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- They will not let us have it. I know people who have been wanting it for the last twelve months, and have not been able to obtain it. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- The firm had a quarrel with a Queensland trader, who told his customers that wire was being drawn in Australia, but that he would not recommend it. While helping the farmers in every way, we should, in handling the taxpayers' money, restrict them to the use of Australian-drawn wire. {: #subdebate-41-0-s16 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .- If anything is left out of this clause, the whole of it should be deleted. The amendment would ensure a monopoly to the manufacturers. The honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** spoke about assistance to the farmers, but is he aware that this Parliament has paid nearly twice as much in bounty to the two firms who manufacture wire netting as was provided for the farmers in the first wire netting grant. A sum of £250,000 was given to the farmers to enable them to buy wire netting, but we have paid £466,000 to the two wire netting factories; and yet the honorable member talks of what is being done for the farmer. I am concerned about the large amount of money given to those two factories to enable them to provide costly wire netting for the farmer. There seems to be in this Parliament too much bias in favour of secondary industries. If the amendment of the honorable member is accepted, it will mean that we provide the bounty, and, no matter what price the local manufacturers charge, the farmer must buy from them. Let me remind honorable members of the intention of a previous parliament. Wire was, by the decision of the last Parliament, admitted to this country free of duty, but the Government subverted the intention of Parliament by using the Anti-dumping Act and levying a duty. That not being sufficient, the bounty was introduced, and the taxpayers have provided £466,000 for the two factories. The honorable member who represents the district where one of the factories is, asks the committee to introduce prohibition, and to force the Australian settler to buy at any price from the two Australian sources. The farmers have to grow produce to compete with the cheap black aud white labour of other parts of the world. The Minister who administers the wire netting fund in Western Australia said that eight needy settlers could have had wire netting if the provision relating to the buying of it from an Australian source had not been enforced. Thus eight settlers were sacrificed to two factories. These facts ought to be carefully examined. If we are going to regard only one side of the question, and place Australia in the hands of monopolists, who have agreed upon a price, we shall achieve the ruin of the primary producer. When the flat rate to all the States was agreed on, the manufacturers had apparently . discovered that it cost more to ship wire netting from New castle to Fremantle than from New York or London to Fremantle. The wire netting manufacturers ought to stand on their own feet, and not sell wire netting more cheaply to New Zealand than to the farmers of this country. {: #subdebate-41-0-s17 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong .- I am surprised at the statements of the honorable member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse).** The bounty would not have been provided but for the outcry from members of the Country party, who said, " We do not mind a bounty, but, whatever you do, no not impose a duty." Having had their wish complied with, they now complain about the bounty being paid. The wire netting manufacturers asked for the same as every other industry in Australia - a small measure of protection. They would rather have had an import duty than a bounty. The policy of Australia, and of this Parliament, is overwhelmingly protectionist, and, that being so, Parliament should see that preference is given whenever possible to- Australian manufacturers. Those who work in the secondary industries are the best customers of the primary producer. Where would the agriculturists of this country be but for the market provided by those who work ki secondary industries ? If there were no industrialists in this country, the man on the land would lose his home market, and would become a " hewer of wood and a drawer of water " for the people of foreign countries. I am inclined to despise the man who is always defaming his own country and the goods it produces. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- That refers to the honorable member himself. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- It applies to the honorable member for Forrest **(Mr.. Prowse),** who is always defaming the goods of his own country. His policy is to put everything into his own pocket, while not allowing any one else to have anything. He is in favour of black, white, or coloured labour if he can see any advantage in it. It is time that this Parliament did its duty, and declined to leave such an important matter as the source of supply of wire- netting to the discretion of the Minister. I should be inclined to trust the present Minister, because I believe he is a sound protectionist; but no Minister should be given the discretionary power proposed. People who require many miles of wire netting may come to the Minister, and if it cannot be obtained in Australia he would have to permit them to import it. As the money must filter through the State authorities, and possibly the municipal authorities, before it reaches the settlers, we shall be treading on dangerous ground if we allow any discretion to the Minister. The Ministry now asks us to interfere with the financial arrangements with the States to the extent of £500,000, but a fortnight ago it said the Commonwealth ought not to pay the *per capita* grant. The honorable member for Forrest was consistent in that matter, and, therefore, I presume that he will support this bill. If he is a true Australian, he will also support the amendment of the honorable member for Newcastle. It is time this Parliament gave practical expression to the protectionist sentiment of the people. The honorable member for Forrest, as an individual, is entitled to purchase his requirements- from China, Japan, India, or any other cheaplabour country ; but when we are expending the taxpayers' money, of which we are the custodians, we should pay some regard to Australian sentiment. Australian wire netting is of the highest quality,, and whatever public money we have for the purchase of netting should be spent on it. {: #subdebate-41-0-s18 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr FOSTER:
Wakefield ,- This clause is discreditable to the Government. As every one knows, I am a reasonable protectionist. I never use anything but Australian farming machinery; I can get nothing better than it. The object of this bill is to relieve distress. Mo3t of the wire bought with this money will go into the interior of Australia, and we ought to make the best deal we can when we spend the money. Where do the representatives of the farmers on this committee stand on this question? It is the height of hypocrisy for the Government to take the stand it has taken, and it must expect to bear the consequences. {: #subdebate-41-0-s19 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I have a good deal of sympathy with the mover of the amendment, but the reason that the words "unless otherwise approved in writing by the Minister " are in the bill, is that it is conceivable that circumstances may arise in which Australian wire netting may be unprocurable, or unprocurable at a reasonable price. I have already been asked whether I would agree to the purchase under this scheme of wire netting which contained a proportion of imported material. I replied that I would not agree to such a purchase unless an unanswerable case were made out as to why this should be done. No Commonwealth Minister would fly in the face of Australian sentiment by signing an order for the purchase of imported material with Commonwealth funds while Australian material was available at fair prices. There is a very good business reason for the retention of these words. If they should be struck out, the Australian wire netting manufacturers would be enjoying, not only the advantage of the bounty which is provided, but an absolute embargo. All competition would be removed, and every penny provided on the Estimates for this purpose would have to be spent on Australian netting regardless of the price which the manufacturers might charge. I believe in using Australian netting on every possible occasion, but the retention of these words is necessary to safeguard the country from the risk of having to pay an extortionate price. Agreements have already been made with the States on this matter, and, although I should be the last man to say that an agreement made under these conditions could not be altered by this House, it certainly will add very greatly to our difficulties if we have unnecessarily to amend it. I give honorable members opposite my assurance that there is no possibility of these words being used unfairly to the Australian industry. I regret that I cannot accept the amendment. {: #subdebate-41-0-s20 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- One might have expected an iron-bound, steel-riveted freetrader to use an argument such as we have just listened to, but I did not expect to hear it from the Minister for Markets and Migration **(Mr. Paterson).** Even supposing that the deletion of these words from the clause would result in the Government being bound hand and foot to the local wire netting manufacturers, what is to stop us from undertaking the manufacture of wire netting for ourselves? {: .speaker-JWQ} ##### Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- The disastrous experience of the various State trading concerns should be sufficient. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Let me tell the honorable member that the Newport railway workshops build better locomotives, for less money, than any engineering works in England or America. Wire netting has not been produced at Newport simply because of the disturbed state of the last Nationalist Government. First class wire has been manufactured at Pentridge, and it should not be difficult to ascertain the cost of it. If the honorable member for- Newcastle allows his amendment to go to a division I should vote in favour of it. I do not see how any honest protectionist can possibly do otherwise. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- If the honorable member had said prohibitionist instead of protectionist, I could agree with him. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I am tired of hearing about moderate protectionist. Let us be whole-hearted. What would we say about moderate virtue in a woman ? What would we say about a moderate thief or larrikin, or sand -bagger? A pest on your word moderate ! If prohibition is necessary to ensure adequate protection for our industries, let us have it. When England sweated her women and children to turn out matchboxes at 2jd. a gross, Japan, with up-to-date machinery, was able to turn them out, fill them with matches and export them for less than Id. a gross. Would honorable members say that anything less than prohibition was necessary in such a case? Let us be true protectionists. Unfortu- nately this composite Government is seriously interfering with the fiscal policy of Australia. It is attacking the taproot of the strong tree protection. I hope the amendment will be accepted. {: #subdebate-41-0-s21 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- The honorable member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse)** drew attention to the amount of money that has been spent in bounties for the wire-netting industry and compared it with the amount that has been spent in bounties for other industries. The honorable member was not fair in Arguing along that line. He knows that this industry was introduced and developed under tariff protection but atthe request of the Country party the tariff duty was removed and a bounty substituted for it without consulting those concerned in the industry. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- The honorable member wants prohibition. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- I want, if I can, to make the honorable member for Forrest a true Australian. No less than 25,000 persons are dependent for employment upon the industry on whose behalf I am appealing. It is the one industry that, at the request of the Tariff Board, averaged its charges round the Australian coast, and it intends to erect a plant in Perth for the drawing of wire in order to save the cost of carriage. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Could the company not compete with the aid of the bounty? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Some honorable members opposite would buy imported goods even if they cost more than those made in Australia. I believe that preference has been given to imported locomotive wheels when similar wheels made in Australia could have been bought for only1s. a pair more. Had it not been for Australian manufacturers the eastwest railway would never have been built at normal rates when costs abroad were phenomenal. Sometimes one is forced to ask whether this is an Australian Parliament, or one whose main desire is to patronize everybody except Australians. Question - That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the schedule (Mr. Watkins' amendment) - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 35 NOES: 8 Majority . . . . 27 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. {: #subdebate-41-0-s22 .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 .- I move - >That the words " twenty-five," clause 7, be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " twenty." For 30 years South Australia has followed a most beneficial system, whereby repayment for wire netting is made in twenty years. I understand that the schedule has been submitted to the States. Has it been approved by all of them? {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- Not all. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- The proposed 25 years' period would involve the establishment of new machinery in my State, and, furthermore,I consider that twenty years is an ample period for the repayment of a loan of this character. Wire netting does not, as a rule, last more than twenty years, and in wet or swampy districts its effective life is nearer ten years than 25 years. {: #subdebate-41-0-s23 .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr PATERSON:
Minister for Markets and Migration · Gippsland · CP -- I cannot accept the amendment. The 2 per cent, charge for the establishment of a sinking fund will enable the debt to be dischargedin 25 years, but if we reduced the period to twenty years the charge would have to be increased to 3 per cent., and the additional 1 per cent, would be a considerable burden on most of the men who would receive the netting. It would be practically impossible for the Government to draw up a schedule that would be acceptable in every detail to each of 'the States; and, if a spirit of compromise is to be shown, it will be easier for one State to agree to terms that are acceptable to most of the States than for a number of States to adopt a particular scheme that meets the requirements of one State. Amendment negatived. Schedule agreed to. Preamble and title agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. Bill, by leave, read a third time. {: .page-start } page 1000 {:#debate-42} ### WINE EXPORT BOUNTY BILL Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 1000 {:#debate-43} ### INVALID AND OLD-AGE {: .page-start } page 1000 {:#debate-44} ### PENSIONS APPROPRIATION BILL Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 1000 {:#debate-45} ### STATES LOAN BILL Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 1000 {:#debate-46} ### PETROLEUM PROSPECTING BILL *In committee* (Consideration of GovernorGeneral's message). Motion (by **Mr. Marr)** agreed to - >That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to amend the Petroleum Prospecting Acts '1926. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted. *Ordered -* >That **Mr. Marr** and **Mr. Paterson** do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented, and (on motion by **Mr. Marr)** read a first time. {:#subdebate-46-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-46-0-s0 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · Parkes · NAT .- I move- >That the bill be now read a second time. Under the Petroleum Prospecting Act 1926 the sum of £60,000 was appropriated, and the Minister was authorized to make advances *(a)* to persons or companies engaged -in the search for oil in Australia for the purpose of testing their holdings ; and (b) to assist persons, companies or State Governments to make detailed geological surveys. The whole of the sum of £60,000thus appropriated has been allocated for advances in certain areas, and it is now necessary to appropriate additional funds in order that further advances may be made in approved cases. It will be remembered that the Treasurer **(Dr. Earle Page),** in his last budget speech, announced that the sum of £100,000 would be set aside for further expenditure in connexion with prospecting for petroleum and precious metals. The amount already appropriated by the Precious Metals Prospecting Act, £40,000, has not yet been expended, and the Government has accordingly decided to ask Parliament to vote the whole amount of £100,000 for prospecting for petroleum. The bill which is now presented for the consideration of honorable members is designed to enlarge the scope of the existing act, by permitting expenditure of the moneys appropriated, on the following matters: - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Advances to . persons or companies engaged in the search for oil in Australia, Papua, or New Guinea; 1. Advances to assist persons, companies, or State or Territorial Governments to make geological surveys in Australia, Papua, or New Guinea; 2. The conduct,either directly, or through an . agent, of geological surveys in Australia, Papua, or New Guinea ; and 3. The conduct, either directly, . or through an agent, . of prospecting operations in the area reserved- in Papua -for -that purpose. It has been the practicein the past to ask Parliament to appropriate, in the annual Estimates, moneys for the conduct by the Commonwealth of geological surveys in Australia and the Territories, and for the conduct of prospecting operations on the Commonwealth's reservation at Popo, Papua. No funds have been made available, up to the present time, for advances to persons or companies operating in the Territories of Papua and New Guinea. It will thus be observed that for the -first time provision is being made in a single act for the appropriation of money required for the whole of the Commonwealth's activities in connexion with the prospecting for petroleum. It was made clear, when the act of 1926 was presented, that the basis of consideration of applications for assistance would be **Dr. Wade's** reports upon the prospects in certain districts in the various States, and it is proposed that the same basis be adoptedin future in regard to applications by companies operating in Australia. Honorable members are aware that the Commonwealth arranged, some years ago, for the Anglo-Persian Oil Company to conduct geological surveys in Papua, and, to a limited extent, in New Guinea. As a result of those surveys the reservation of land around Popo, Papua, was decided upon, and boring operations have been conducted by the company onsites chosen by its geologists. In framing the last bill introduced, the Government acted upon the advice of **Dr. Wade,** who is one of the world's petroleum specialists. If this bill is passed, the Government proposes "to send a party of geological experts to the Mandated Territories and Papua, to thoroughly test the proposals which various companies and individuals have submitted. The Government has not been in a position, up to the present, to give assistance, because the services of surveyors and geologists of standing were not available to report upon the applications made. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- Will surveys also be made in Australia? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- Yes. Some little time ago a certain amount of money was allocated for the payment of an expert to report on some fields in Australia. Wherever, in the opinion of experts, there is the slightest prospect of the discovery of oil, the locations will be fully tested, whether they are in the hands of companies or individuals. Last year we appropriated £60,000 for this purpose, and from this vote the Government has already subsidized, to some extent, the Belford Dome Company, . in New South Wales, and a Western Australian company. The sum of £22,500 has been set aside for each of these companies to provide payment for work done on a 50-50 basis. We asked the Government of New South Wales to give us the benefit of the advice of their mineral experts. **Dr. Wade** reported favorably upon the Belford Dome area, and experts will be sent to advise where bores should be put down for testing purposes. It is intended to pay companies, not for any plant erected on the ground, but a proportionate share of expenses according to the depth reached by a bore. The assistance proposed to be given by the Government should materially help those engaged in efforts to discover oil. Provision was made in the last act for the repayment of -advances made in the event of oil being struck. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Does not the Government claim a proportion of the output? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- That is not provided for. The discovery of oil in Australia is of such great national importance that the few thousands of pounds which may bo spent by the Commonwealth to assist in its discovery will be vastly more than repaid if oil is found in payable quantity. Out of the vote of £60,000 appropriated last year, the Government assisted some oil boring companies in Queensland, on the recommendation of the Queensland Government. The honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks),** on one occasion read some letters in this chamber dealing with boring operations for oil in the Roma district. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The honorable member made some very serious charges. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- On the advice of the Queensland Government, the Commonwealth Government decided to allocate a certain amount to carry out investigations on that field. It is believed that there are good prospects of the discovery of oil in the Mandated Territories, and even better prospects of its discovery in Papua. Certain allegations have been made concerning the work carried out in Papua by the Persian Oil Company, and paid for by the Commonwealth Govern: ment, in boring for oil there. Three bores have been sunk, but they have not yet reached the petroliferous strata. Experts are confident that oil will be discovered in Papua. If oil is discovered in the bores carried out by the Persian Oil Company, it will become the property of the Commonwealth Government. Companies or individuals carrying on operations at locations where experts are of opinion that oil is likely to be found, will receive assistance from the Government. There is, however, no intention to support " wild cat " companies. If, in the opinion of experts, even a small company is carrying on operations where it is likely that oil will be found, the Government will be willing to assist. It is intended to test likely areas as minutely as possible, and the Government hopes that the money spent in doing so will prove to have been profitably spent. {: #subdebate-46-0-s1 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I am very glad that this bill has been introduced. While agreeing with what the Minister has said, I should like to direct attention to a policy adopted in South Africa which might be incorporated in this measure. If any one discovers diamonds in South Africa, he is entitled to half the value, whilst the Government takes the other half. If the find is upon private property, the finder takes one-fourth, the owner takes one-fourth, and the Government takes one-half. A large proportion of the revenue of South Africa is obtained in this way. The Government there also claims a proportion of all gold that may be obtained. I should like the Minister to adopt similar provisions in order that the welfare of the community of Australia may be conserved as is done in South Africa. Nothing more valuable than petroleum could be discovered in Australia. This is well named the century of oil. I am sure that it is the desire of all who lave Australia that the discovery of oil in this country should benefit the public rather than a few private individuals. If the South African practice had been adopted in the United States of America, the discovery of oil in that country would have benefited the people instead of mak ing a number of multi-millionaires, including Rockefeller who, by the way, is said to have destroyed 4,000 different companies in building up his immense fortune. I believe that oil would have been found in Queensland but for the fact that the Standard Oil people destroyed the bores that were put down at Roma, as indicated in the sworn declarations which the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks)** produced and read in this chamber. During the recess I hope the Government will look into the policy adopted in South Africa., and see whether in this matter Australia could not, with advantage, follow the example of that country. {: #subdebate-46-0-s2 .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP .- I am very glad that (his measure has at last been introduced. Last July we appropriated £100,000 for oil exploration, in Commonwealth territory other than the mainland of Australia. When the original act was introduced, I asked why our Territories were not included in its operation, as the geological formation in Australia did not give much hope for the discovery of oil here in payable quantities. We have contiguous to Australia, and under our jurisdiction, districts that were very favorably reported upon by geologists of repute, and of various nationalities. In speaking on the original act, I gave certain information to the House which I do not intend to repeat to-night. I am extremely pleased that at last the Government has seen fit to allocate moneys for the discovery of oil in territories where there is more than a reasonable chance that oil will be discovered. I have recently been abroad, and amongst other places I visited Java, where oil is found, Sumatra, and Burmah. I discussed the question of oil exploration with the leading men in those countries engaged in the business. I asked the Mines Department in Java, and the mines director there, as well as the chief officers of the Standard Oil Company and leading men of the Burmah Oil' Company: If £100,000 were made available to develop a field or make a geological survey of it for the purpose of the discovery of oil, what advice would you give as practical men as to the best way in which to 6pend the money *1* They were practically unanimous in the advice they gave. They advised that first of all the Government must carry out a geo- logical survey of areas considered likely to contain oil. It should use all the information available from geologists employed by the companies as the basis for ite investigations. Referring to the Minister's remarks concerning " wild-cat " companies, I say that the Government owes it to investors in oil companies to inform them concerning the likelihood of the discovery of oil in the areas in which the companies are boring for it. That duty could be best carried out by the Government utilizing plants already in existence. I was advised by the persons whom I consulted that it was essential that the Government should secure the advice of a geologist, a palaeontologist, and an expert driller. {: .speaker-JY7} ##### Mr Duncan-Hughes: -- "What would the palaeontologist have to do? {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- He would co-ordin ate the work of the other two experts. I am not giving merely my own opinion, but the advice given to me by the heads of established oil companies who knew what they were talking about. We were informed some time ago that the Government secured the services of **Mr. Latham** Watson. From inquiries I made I am satisfied that he is an expert driller, and if his services are still available, the difficulty of securing the advice of one of the experts essential to oil exploration will be settled. The number of geologists in the world who understand oil is very small. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- And they are nearly all. connected with the big companies. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- Most of them are. I join issue with the Minister in his statement that **Dr. Wade** is an admitted specialist in connexion with oil. I doubt whether he possesses the necessary qualifications to warrant him in giving advice as an oil specialist. As a rule men do not disparage a fellow professional without cause, and I have heard from other oil geologists that **Dr. Wade** has not the qualifications to constitute him an authority on oil. If the Government decides to obtain a thoroughly-qualified geologist, it must be prepared to spend a lot of money. One eminent expert who was available in December last would not leave London at a fee of less than £20,000. That is a large sum, but this is the age of oil, and oil means big money; there fore, the Government would be welladvised to obtain the services of a recognized authority at any fee. Should he report favorably on the oil prospects in any Australian territory, money would be available for prospecting without any government subsidy. I repeat that the duty of the Government is to protect the investing public against exploitation by wild-cat companies. If the Government is niggardly, and engages a second or third class man, it will make a serious mistake. The payment of a high fee to secure the opinion of a competent authority will be well worth while. Two companies are already boring for oil in New Guinea. One company is about to commence boring in Papua, where for some years the Commonwealth has been subsidizing the boring operations of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. The geologists employed by the companies operating in New Guinea are of high repute in tho geological world, and their reports on surface indications, which have been checked to some extent by the bores, are available. I suggest that the Government should avail itself of the generous offer of the companies to make their plants available for boring at any spot that the geologist appointed by the Commonwealth may select. Those companies have had difficulty in financing their operations, and the fact that they are undercapitalized may be one reason why they have not been able to obtain larger plants. One plant there, however, is capable of boring to a depth of 7.000 feet, and that will be available to the Commonwealth's driller at any time. Already a geological survey of portion of the Mandated Territory has been made by men who are eminent in their profession, and the Government should use their reports and the information from the bores. I do not know whether the ' Anglo-Persian Company is still being subsidized by the Commonwealth in respect of its operations in Papua. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- Yes. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- Apparently the Government is doing something to aid oil-prospecting in that territory, at any rate. The regulations made under the original Petroleum Prospecting Act provide that, in the event of a discovery of oil in commercial quantities, the companies benefiting should return to the Government the amount of the subsidies received by them. When speaking on the original bill, I suggested a better plan. When the Government subsidizes any company it is adding to its share capital, and, as oil is essential to any country, I proposed that the Government should keep 1 per cent, of the total output of oil by the subsidized companies, and should have first call on the whole of the supplies in time of national emergency. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- There is no doubt that the Government would insist upon having that. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- It is not provided for, and we should take steps to ensure that adequate supplies are available for the Navy and for other defence purposes. I suggested to the previous Minister for Home and Territories **(Senator Pearce)** that mining wardens should be appointed, one in the gold-mining area of Morobe, and the other in the petroliferous district about Madang. That proposal was made over twelve months ago and long before the troubles had occurred with the prospectors at E'die Creek. Those troubles were insignificant in comparison with what will certainly happen if oil is discovered in large quantities in New Guinea, and we should be prepared for any emergency by appointing immediately wardens with the necessary knowledge and authority. They could also be employed in some other official capacity. A mining warden should certainly be appointed so that in the event of the discovery of oil he could immediately proceed to the spot to deal with difficulties and problems- as they arise. The troubles that have arisen in the Morobe district will be insignificant compared with those that will , be experienced when oil is discovered in New Guinea. Recently the regulations respecting oil were altered to provide that those who discovered oil should receive not only a reward, but also certain lands in the vicinity of the discovery. The oil leases in New Guinea consist of 1,000 square miles. I am referring more particularly to New Guinea, because, from information that I received when I was at Bandoeng, in Java, respecting the mandated territory, it appears to me that that is the only place in which the Commonwealth is likely to find oil. The lessees of those areas have to comply with certain labour conditions, and to incur a certain amount of expense. First of all, an extensive geological survey has to be made. A geologist and assistants have to be engaged, and their return fares paid, and, of course, labour has also to be employed. The minimum cost of a preliminary survey is £5,000. If the geologist's report is favourable, an expedition has to be fitted out, transport arranged, and machinery and native labour obtained. **Dr. Stanley** recommended certain areas, including Aitape, Sepik Valley, and the district south of Madang, Ramu River, as favorable for prospecting for oil. I suggest that the Government will save time and expense in prospecting for oil if it takes advantage of the work that has already been done by private companies, more particularly those who have checked geological surveys by actual boring. The Government should obtain the services of an expert geologist, a driller - **Mr. Latham** Watson, if possible, if his services are still available - and an oil warden, and I certainly advise it not to go to sleep on this matter. This Parliament last July voted a anm of £100,000- for oil prospecting, and this bill is the first attempt made by the Government to bring forward a concrete proposal. I commend for the consideration of the Minister a few of the suggestions that I made when the original bill was before this chamber. {: #subdebate-46-0-s3 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP ..- I regret that the Government has seen fit to bring down a bill that was not listed on the notice-paper this morning, because no opportunity has been given to honorable members to gain information on the subject. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- The Prime Minister mentioned the bill this morning in the list that he gave. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I take strong exception to rush legislation. We have been expending money for the last eight or nine years in an effort to discover oil in New Guinea. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- No amount has yet been allocated for oil prospecting in New Guinea. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- We have spent a good deal of money in Papua without any result so far. Notwithstanding the honorable member's eulogy of **Dr. Wade,** that gentleman has been employed by the Commonwealth over about six years to report on oil indications in Papua, and as a result of his investigations bores have been sunk in certain places, but all to no purpose. I should like to know the amount of money that has been expended on this project. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- The Government went about the business in the wrong way. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I do not agree with the honorable member that the Government should approach the private companies in New Guinea with a view to utilizing their machinery and employees. In Papua, the Anglo-Persian Oil Company is working on our behalf. The employees of the company surely have more knowledge than any one else of this subject, and we are getting their advice. Why should we join with the small concerns that are running wild cat shows? We. are all alive to the importance of discovering oil in this country, but that is no reason why the Government should not tell us how much money is being spent on the investigations. We are asked to vote £100,000, and it is not fair to the people of this country that we should do it without first making a thorough inquiry. I suggest that a parliamentary committee should be appointed to ascertain how themoney is being spent, and what work is being done. If anything suspicious is discovered, Parliament should be informed , of it. I object to a bill like this being brought down, the Standing Orders being suspended, and the bill rushed through without members having a proper opportunity to consider and discuss it. I suppose that another £100,000of expenditure does not matter to this Government. Although it would be a splendid thins; to discover oil in any Commonwealth territory, I suggest that we can be too reckless in expending the taxpayer's money. We are told every year that we are on the eve of discovering oil in Papua, but we no sooner learn that than we hear that a drill has broken, and that a new drill and new drillers must be obtained from the Old Country. Has the Government any definite policy in this matter, other than the policy of periodically asking for more money to continue the explorations? I am prepared to allow the bill to go through, subject to the protest I have made. {: #subdebate-46-0-s4 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · Parkes · NAT -- The remarks of the honorable member for Richmond **(Mr. R. Green)** would lead one to suppose that the Government was sleeping on the job. As a matter of fact, we have the best advice it is possible to obtain, and, as the custodian of the public funds, we are endeavouring to ensure that every penny is spent in the right direction. We are employing the best driller available. **Mr. Wade,** one of the world's acknowledged experts, was employed by the Government. I attended a lecture by **Dr. Jensen,** in Sydney, but when it is suggested that we should employ him, it must be remembered that he is an interested party. The Government will not consent to take the advice of men who are interested in oil companies, but if **Dr. Jensen,** or any one else, can show that they are on a good wicket, no one will bo more delighted than the Government. If the honorable member for Richmond can tell the Government where to obtain competent mining wardens, the Government will be only too ready to employ them. We have had great difficulty in obtaining them, as well as oil wardens. Competent mining wardens and oil wardens are not walking about the world looking for jobs, and if my honorable friend can tell me where any of them are to be found he will be rendering this country a service. I believe that the honorable member desires to assist the Government inthis undertaking, and that he will support the bill. I remind the honorable member for South Sydney **(Mr. E. Riley)** that the committee discussed this matter at great length on the Estimates, and the bill provides for the appropriation. It could not be put on the notice-paper, because it had to be introduced by a message from the Governor-General. I mentioned the matter -to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Scullin)** yesterday, and he concurred in the procedure. I can assure the committee that in expending the money everything possible will be done to safeguard the public purse. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In committee:* The bill. {: #subdebate-46-0-s5 .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP .- I should like the Minister to explain the meaning of paragraph dof proposed new sub-section 1 of section 4 of the principal act. The paragraph provides that the Minister may spend the money for the purpose of " the conduct, either directly or through an agent, of prospecting operations in the area reserved in Papua for that purpose." {: #subdebate-46-0-s6 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · Parkes · NAT -- The paragraph means that the Government may do the work itself or employ an agent. At the present time it is paying the Anglo-Persian Oil Company for prospecting in the area reserved . for that purpose. The money is intended to assist further in that direction. Bill agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. Bill read a third time. {: .page-start } page 1006 {:#debate-47} ### BANKRUPTCY BILL Message received from the Senate intimating that it had agreed to the amendments made in the hill by the House of Representatives. "WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL. {:#subdebate-47-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-47-0-s0 .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · Echuca · CP -- I move - That the bill be now read a second time. I feel sure that this bill will have the support of all honorable members. It will give to the War Service Homes Commissioner power to make advances not exceeding £950 to those applicants who have already been provided with a home. In the past the maximum amount which could be lent under the act was £800, and difficulty has been experienced, particularly in New South Wales and Victoria, in providing anything better than ordinary accommodation within the limit of an expenditure of £800. Generally, when an applicant sets out to obtain a home, he has a small family, which increases as the years pass, until additional accommodation in the home becomes essential. Unless the amount of £800 has been expended, a further advance may not be made under the existing act; and it is with the object of removing that anomaly, and enabling loans to be granted to provide additional accommodation, that this amending bill is brought forward. It does not follow that every past applicant will receive an additional loan, or that he will receive the full additional amount of £150. Each application will be dealt with on its merits. Where it is shown that more accommodation is required to house an applicant's family, an additional grant will be made, provided, of course, that he is in a position to repay it. The amendments will apply to future eligible applicants, but the advance to them, as to past applicants, will be limited to £800 unless the commissioner is of the opinion that the loan of a larger amount is necessary to provide essential accommodation. A consequential amendment is proposed to section 18a of the principal act, to make the expenditure definitely recoverable by the commission. Honorable members will be asked to repeal section 28a of the principal act, which, to a certain extent, repeats the provisions of sections 18 and 21. The part of the section which is not repeated is being incorporated in another section. There are at- present 30,082 war service homes in the Commonwealth, distributed as follows: - New South Wales, 9,703; Victoria, 7,828; Queensland, 4,023; South Australia, 4,644; Western Australia, 2,670, and Tasmania, 1,214. Up to the 30th June last our total expenditure on war service homes was £23,482,205. Our receipts in repayments of interest and principal were £9,661,081. A portion of the repayments have been transferred to the National Debt Slinking Fund. The amount dealt with in that way last year was £744,548. Honorable members will be interested to know that the percentage of instalments outstanding is only 1.13. It is becoming lower year by year. Every case of arrears is dealt with sympathetically, and that policy will be continued. I am sure that all honorable members will support the bill. {: #subdebate-47-0-s1 .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN:
Reid .- I am gratified that the Government has decided to increase the maximum amount that may be granted to returned soldiers for War Service Homes ; but the bill does not go far enough. On the 10th February, 1926, I asked the Minister for Works and Railways whether the Government would increase the amount of advance to the occupants of War Service Homes to enable them to increase their housing accommodation to provide for the needs of growing families, and the reply was in the negative. But this is a step in that direction. I am sorry, however, that the Minister has expressly stated that the additional amount will only be advanced to meet essential accommodation requirements. Unquestionably, building costs have increased considerably during the last few years. An advance of £950 to-day is not of much greater building value than an advance of £800 was four or five years. I regret that the amount prescribed that may be advanced to applicants has not been left to the discretion of the deputy commissioners in the various States. As one who has taken a considerable interest in War Service Homes since I entered Parliament, I am pleased to say that there has been a great improvement in the administration. Without reflecting in any way upon the Minister who at present administers the department, I wish to say that this is due, in no small measure to the policy adopted by the honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart),** when he had charge of the portfolio. He did a great deal to cut away red tape, and may fairly be credited with the comparative satisfaction that exists to-day. In 1923, I brought under the notice of the honorable member by moving the adjournment of the House the excessive valuations that had been placed upon the War Service Homes, and within a few weeks he bad written down the costs by about £250,000. Although anomalies still exist in regard to valuations, and there exists much dissatisfaction amongst occupants, I feel it only right to say that the Deputy War Service Homes Commissioner in New South Wales, **Mr. Morrell,** is one of the most capable and fairminded Government officers it has been my pleasure to meet. I regret that his ability has not been properly recognized, practically every complaint that I have taken to him has been, where possible, remedied. It cannot be said than an officer who manages thousands of homes, administers millions of money, and converts failures into relative successes, is adequately remunerated by a salary of £900. If the Government loses the services of such officers, it will have only itself to blame. I regret that War Service Homes advances are not available to purchase existing properties. The commission has adopted the policy of spending its money only upon building dwelling-houses, except in the special cases of ex-service men who are suffering from some disability. Many returned soldiers are to-day bearing burdens of first and second mortgages, which they undertook in ignorance. I can see no reason why advances should not be made to purchase existing properties, provided that they are suitable and are satisfactory security. I trust that the commission will discontinue its present conservative policy of compelling men to erect new buildings in areas which are unsuitable to them, when they can acquire satisfactory homes in the localities in which they wish to live. Another matter concerning which I should like some explanation is causing dissatisfaction to the " diggers " in group settlements, of whom there are many hundreds in my electorate. Why are they called upon to pay stamp duty after a period of years? I know from letters I have received from the Minister that it is claimed that there are certain legal reasons for this action. If the honorable gentleman, in reply to this debate, will make a brief statement on the matter, it might clear up some misapprehensions that exist among the returned soldiers. The honorable gentleman referred to the sympathetic treatment afforded returned soldiers in the matter of arrears, hut cases have come under my notice where there appears to have been a lack of sympathy in dealing with this question. Returned soldiers have vacated properties that were faultily constructed or found unsatisfactory, and. in entire ignorance of the fact that their legal obligations in respect of those properties continued. Although the War Service Homes Commission may subsequently have sold or transferred these vacated properties, the men who left them continue to be charged with arrears accumulating between the time they vacated the properties and their transfer or sale to another occupant. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- In most of those cases the homes were left quite unprotected, a-nd the department had no knowledge- that they were vacated until they were found perhaps a month later,, to he vacant. {: .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN: -- Where: there has been wilful default on the part of returned soldiers I agree that there is justification in pursuing them to make good arrears.. But there are cases where men have- left, houses because they were absolutely untenantable. I am speaking of what happened, in the early days of the administration of the act., All these cases should be examined and dealt with on their merits. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- It is the practice of the department to do that... {: .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN: -- One or two cases were submitted to me in which claims for the payment of arrears were made, which upon examination of the files did not appear to me to be warranted. There ie one further observation I should like to make, and it is that I am surprised that the Government has not utilized the experience of the War Service Home3 Commission, gained at the cost of millions of wasteful expenditure, in connexion with the erection of houses at Canberra and a general housing scheme. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 1008 {:#debate-48} ### COMMONWEALTH INSCRIBED STOCK BILL {:#subdebate-48-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-48-0-s0 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · Cowper · CP -- I move - >That the bill bo now road a second time. This is a slier t machinery bill, designed principally to facilitate transactions and clear up certain matters in connexion with the inscription of stock. The first amendment proposed to be made is- one relating to friendly societies and trade unions, and lays down the procedure to be followed in connexion with the inscription of stock in the names of these organizations, and transactions in such stock. Under the Inscribed Stock Act, stock can be registered only in the name of a " person,"' »nd under the Acts Interpretation Act "person" includes a body politic or corporate, but does not include trade unions or friendly societies unless they are registered as corporations under State acts. These- organizations are thus in a different position from companies, whose officers are authorized by law to act in their names, and have common seals and prescribed methods of affixingthose seals. Under the law as it at present stands, stock purchased by a friendly society or trade union cannot be- inscribed in the name of the society or union, but can only be registered in the names of individuals, without any reference to the society or union. This is obviously undesirable, and creates a considerable amount of risk which the societies are anxious to avoid. It is desired to encourage friendly societies and trade unions to invest their funds in Commonwealth Government inscribed stock, and provision is therefore being made in -thu amendment for stock to be inscribed in the names of these organizations, which the registrar of inscribed stock is satisfied are registered under the laws of any State. Under the amendment, an application for inscription of stock must be signed by two or more persons appointed by the organizations, and' transactions in relation- to such stock must be authorized by the persons appointed in that behalf by the organization. The second amendment - clause 3 - deals with the transmission of amounts of' stock of £100 or under, held by loan subscribers who. have no other estate and desire to avoid the expense of taking out probate of will or letters of administration.. A similar principle is already to be found in the Commonwealth Bank Act in regard to savings bank moneys held on deposit, and this amendment would give ia certain amount of relief iti, the case of small subscribers to our loans. The third amendment - clause 4 - is designed to clear up a matter about which, at present, there is some doubt, and that is the- right of any State to impose stamp duty on documents that are used in connexion with stock and bond transactions on the market. Section 52a of the present act already provides that stock certificates and certain other documents specified in that section shall not be liable to stamp duty , but the section hardly goes far enough, and it is proposed to provide that all documents, such, for example, as contract or. sale notes for Commonwealth stock and bonds, shall also be exempt from imposition of State stamp duty. The last amendment repeals section 57 of the act, which requires a certain return to be laid before Parliament. Much of the information contained in that statement, however, is supplied in the annual finance statement presented to Parliament, while under the National Debt, Sinking Fund Act the National Debt Commission, is required to report its- transactions- annually to Parliament. As the information presented to Parliament is thus duplicated,, it is proposed to repeal section 57. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 1009 {:#debate-49} ### HOUR OF MEETING Motion (by **Mr. Bruce)** agreed to - >That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 10.30 to-morrow morning. House adjourned at 10.53 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 23 March 1927, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1927/19270323_reps_10_115/>.

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