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House of Representatives
24 March 1926

10^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- CANBERRA
QUESTION
- ADMINISTRATOR OF NAURU
QUESTION
- S.S. WOTAN
QUESTION
- COCKATOO ISLAND DOCKYARD
COAL MINING INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- WAR INJURIES COMPENSATION BOARD
QUESTION
- TRAFFIC OFFICERS FOR TELEPHONE EXCHANGES
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE CLASSIFICATION
QUESTION
- DISARMAMENT
QUESTION
- MILITARY CAMP AT SEYMOUR
QUESTION
- WAR SERVICE HOMES
PAPERS
QUESTION
- ALLEGED ILL-TREATMENT OF ABORIGINALS
QUESTION
- CRUDE OIL MOTOR FUEL
QUESTION
- MENTALLY AFFLICTED SOLDIERS
QUESTION
- RAVAGES OF THE TIMBER BORER
QUESTION
- KYOGLE TO BRISBANE RAILWAY
ASSENT TO BILLS
HOUR OF MEETING
QUESTION
- TARIFF
ADJOURNMENT
- The Price of Butter

Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir littleton Groom) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 1932

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Parliament House : Furnishing and Equipment : Official Opening - Railaway Communication - Secretariat Building.

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories yet in a position to answer the questions I asked on the 12th March, regarding the use of imported material in the furnishing and equipment of Parliament House, Canberra?

Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The honorable member asked what products used in connexion with the construction, equipment, and furnishing of Parliament House and other Government works and buildings at Canberra had been imported from (a) Great Britain, and (b), foreign countries. The following particulars have now been received from the Federal Capital Commission : -

Bituminous roof covering, special sani tary fittings, rubber flooring, carpets, glassware, chinaware and linen for the dining-room, partlyfinished cutlery
Oregon timber, special white cement,

Trinidad asphalt roofing, and some special cylindrical locks - a email percentage of the total requirements.

On the same date the honorable member asked -

Is it a fact that a contract for rubber floor coverings for ParliamentHouse at Canberra has been let to a British firm?
Is the flooring to be supplied under such a contract to be made in Australia or Britain?
Did Australian rubber manufacturers tender for such floor coverings?
Was any Australian tender recommended . for acceptance by expert officers?
What was the reason the contract was let to an overseas manufacturer?
Have proper comparisons been made between the quality of the accepted British covering and the Australian-made covering?

The following are the answers to those questions: -

Yes.
Britain.
Yes.
No.
The quality of the oversea article was much superior to that of the article specified in lowest Australian tender, and the price was very much lower, after allowing a reasonable margin of preference to the Australian-made article.
Yos.

Mr BOWDEN:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Government come to any decision regarding the date of the official opening of Parliament House, Canberra?

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

– The matter is receiving the urgent consideration of the Government, because it is essential that an announcement shall be made as soon as possible in order to allow ample time to complete the arrangements for the ceremony.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Does the Government intend to invite any distinguished person to perform the opening ceremony, or will that be done by the Prime Minister ?

Mr BRUCE:

– I do not think that, in any circumstances, the Prime Minister would be the proper person to open a session of Parliament at Canberra. No definite decision as to who will perform the opening ceremony has yet been made, but at the earliest possible date I shall make an announcement to the House on the subject.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Can the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories inform the House of the progress that is being made in regard to the construction of the secretariat building ? I understand that the services of a number of building tradesmen are being dispensed with. If the secretariat building were proceeded with, their employment at Canberra could continue.

Mr MARR:

– The secretariat building was referred to the Public Works Committee for investigation and report. The Government desires to proceed with the erection of the building as speedily as possible, and would be glad if the commit/tee would expedite its report.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I ask the Minister for Works and Railways what steps the Government is taking to improve the railway connexion between Canberra and the southern States? I understand that visitors travelling to Canberra from Melbourne have to make an unnecessary detour of 90 miles.

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · ECHUCA, VICTORIA · CP

– The honorable member’s question relates to a matter of Government policy, in regard to which an announcement will be made in due course.

page 1933

QUESTION

ADMINISTRATOR OF NAURU

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Prime Minister whether General Griffiths has been reappointed Administrator of Nauru. Have not the three countries that share the mandate for that island the right to appoint the Administrator alternately? Has New Zealand approved of the reappointment of General Griffiths?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The arrangement by the three countries that share the mandate for Nauru is that each in turn shall appoint the Administrator. Australia appointed the first Administrator, General Griffiths. His term expired in June last, but he had done such admirable work during his period of office that the mandatories agreed that it was desirable to renew his appointment. That has been done.

page 1933

QUESTION

S.S. WOTAN

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Prime Minister yet able to make an announcement regarding the claims for work done at Newcastle on the ex-enemy vessel Wotan?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– I regret the delay that has occurred in connexion with this matter, in which the honorable member has taken such a keen interest. The Commonwealth Government communicated with the British Government in regard to one point that must be cleared up before a final decision can be reached, but received no reply. A few days ago, a further communication was sent asking for a reply, but so far none has come to hand.

page 1933

QUESTION

COCKATOO ISLAND DOCKYARD

Mr MAHONY:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Prime Minister say whether it is true that the Government contemplates interfering with the Commonwealth Shipping Board’s administration of Cockatoo island Dockyard ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answer is in the negative.

– Yes, section 21 provides for the appointment of local boards; but the special tribunal was appointed under sections 13 and 14, which read -

The Governor-General may appoint a’ specialtribunal or tribunals for the prevention of or settlement of any industrial dispute or disputes.

A special tribunal shall consist of- an equalnumber of representatives of employers and employees respectively,, together with a chairman.

Section 21 provides for the appointment of local boards, because it was realized at the time the act was passed that one tribunal could not deal with all the disputes that would arise in the coal-mining industry in consequence of the changes of conditions to which I have referred’,, in an industry in which 25,000’ men are employed’ in the different States. Section- 21 of the act, under which local boards are appointed, reads -

In relation to any special tribunal, the Governor-General may appoint a local board or boards to- exercise jurisdiction, within such limits’- as are prescribed or- as are defined by the special tribunal for the settlement of any industrial dispute or disputes or for the prevention or settlement of disputes which have arisen or which may arise in any industry.

That provision was made as it was realized’ at the time that it was necessary to appoint local board’s. Section 22 provides for the constitution of local boards, in this way-

A’ local board shall consist of a chairman, and an even number (not loss than four nor more than eight) of other members. (2.) Of the members other, than, the chairman,: one-half shall be representative of employers, and’ one-half shall be representative” of recognized organizations of employees. . . .

Mr.- Hughes. - During a coal strike in New South Wales, in 1910, the Government of the day took the coal bv force.

Mr CHARLTON:

– It had “to do it, because it is impossible to keep industry going without fuel.

Mr Hughes:

– If a coal lumper refused to place coal on board a ship, would not that come within the act. The coal lumpers and the wharf labourers would be involved.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Littleton Groom:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– I ask honorable members not to interject, as by doing so they are occupying the time which is allowed to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) under the Standing Orders.

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

.- I am keenly disappointed with the statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce) that the Government does not intend to appoint the local boards to deal with miners’ disputes. He has told us that we must wait until the whole industrial position is dealt with in legislation, which will be introduced in two or three months’ time. In his concluding remarks the right honorable gentleman evaded the issue by intimating that he would ask Mr. Hibble to deal with one or two of the most serious matters in dispute. There has been trouble for several years in the South Coast mines, in my district. When the Industrial Peace Act was passed in 1920 I asked the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes), who was then Prime Minister, if the Government would appoint the local boards, and T was told that the matter would have consideration. There has been a persistent demand for the appointment of these boards for many years, and it appears to me that, in refusing to appoint them, the Government is in the position of Nero, who, we are told, fiddled while Rome was burning. If newspaper reports are true, there is a great deal of unrest in the coal-mining industry, and there is every possibility of a wide-spread industrial dispute which will affect other industries throughout the Commonwealth. In the circumstances it is futile to suggest that we should wait until we are revising our industrial legislation two or three months hence. The Prime Minister was coldly analytical of the request made by my leader (Mr. Charlton). He emphasized that the Government had to consider the question from the constitutional stand-point. If the right honorable gentleman had analysed similarly one of the bills that was rushed through Parliament earlier in the session, to deal a blow at trade unionism, the statute-book would not have been disgraced with that piece of legislation. Now, when it is a question of acceding to the request of am important industrial organization, we are told that any action which the. Government may take must be within tha few; that the Government must take no risks. The organizations concerned want to keep the wheels of industry going. Any man who says that the average coal miner is. anxious to cease work is saying something that is absolutely untrue. The- following letter, which was sent to me under date 19th June last, sets out the position very clearly: -

The pillar question. That is the bone of contention ali along the line in the southern district. I can give you, briefly, what the men want, and have wanted since 1914. When Mr. Hibble framed his award for the southern district, not under the Industrial Peace Act, he forced differential rates upon it, namely: Headings, which is now 4s. If d. ; boards, 3s. 1*id ; pillars, 3s. 7d. per ton. The majority of the work in this district now is pillar work. Mr. Hibble- has been asked repeatedly for a definition of a pillar-working place since 1914, but, up to date, has refused to do so. The proprietors, taking advantage of this, are getting the biggest part 3f their output from pillar working, and you will see the difference of rates as above; and they are the final arbiters on the definition, and are getting the majority of the bord work cut at pillar rates, and part of the narrow development work, usually 4s. 1 3/8d., out for- 3s. 7d. a ton. The deficiency trouble is largely due to this defect, and most of the stoppages are due to it. Men have to hole and shoot pillar work, -which is a standing joke to any practical miner in the country. The sole object of the agitation is to get some tribunal to sit and hear the arguments against this legalized robbery. Until something is done on these lines there will always be trouble in this district, especially on the deficiency question. You see the scientific way our wages are being reduced, and we have no redress, only the old, old way.

The writer of that letter is not looking for industrial trouble. He has always done his best to get disputes settled amicably, and he now say3 definitely that, as the men have no tribunal, there is no other way of settling a dispute, except to strike. There are fourteen or fifteen pits in my district, and there is a great deal of trouble over deficiency claims. The men’s complaint is that there is no tribunal to which they can readily appeal. Very often a strike is caused because a trouble has to spread through more than one district before, under the existing system, the original cause can be investigated and possibly settled. The original intention was to appoint local boards. As the Industrial Peace Act is being ad- ministered I am afraid that, instead of conducing to industrial peace, it- causes: trouble to spread. The trouble that occurred at- the Mr Kembla mines,, not so long ago, was due to deficiency claims. The proprietors of the mine deducted dirt, with the result that many miners were only making 13s. and 14s. a shift, instead of 19s: 9d., the. minimum hewing rate. They endeavoured unsuccessfully to obtain redress. Eventually they went on strike, and were brought before ihe court under the Masters and Servants Act of New South Wales, and fined. In default they were ordered to- undergo fourteen days’ imprisonment. In this way men are being oppressed to the breaking point, and it appears that they have now reached that stage in New South Wales. In many of the mines dirt and varying conditions will be encountered. They may persist for three, four, or five days, and the men may continue working, knowing that in. time the conditions will alter. Because these tribunals do not exist to give ready redress, grievances are not remedied until the men, being unable to tolerate them any longer, throw down their tools. If the creation of these boards would be unconstitutional, the whole act is unconstitutional. It has, however, continued in operation for a long time. It would be an almost perfect piece of legislation if the boards were functioning. If the Government wishes to overhaul the industrial machinery of this country in two or three months’ time, that is its business; but in the meantime it should appoint the boards. If the boards prove unsatisfactory amending legislation may be introduced, but something must be done immediately to keep the men at work, lt is of no use telling the mon that Mr. Hibble will deal with these matters. They know that Mr. Hibble cannot do so. The Prime Minister may regard certain matters as being important, but Mr. Hibble may think that other matters are more important. While Mr. Hibble is deciding something of importance in the south, his presence may be needed in the north or the west. If it was worth the risk of violating the Constitution to pass an act to deport trade union leaders and make them criminals, it is worth the risk of doing something that may be unconstitutional to keep the wheels of industry turning.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir littleton Groom:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr HUGHES:
North Sydney

– The honorable the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) has called the attention of the Government, the Parliament, and the country to a possible industrial conflagration, and asks that something be done, so that should the fire break out it may be kept under control with little effort. It would not become me to speak with the same assurance as the honorable gentleman on the subject of the coal mining industry, since I have no first-hand knowledge of it. But, as he knows, I have spent a great deal of time among the coal miners, and have heard both parties in the industry state their views. It was my misfortune to be associated with the coal miners in, perhaps, the greatestindustrial upheaval that has taken place in this country. On that occasion I heard their case in detail; and as AttorneyGeneral and Leader of the Government, the troubles of the industry have been set before me on very many occasions. Prom my experience I should say that once this threatened strike starts it will be beyond the power of any man or any law, no matter now framed, to stay it. Like some malignant disease it will run its course. But now it is compassable - it may be dealt with. I do not say that the miners have a case. I know nothing about it; but I accept the Leader of the Opposition’s assurance that they are dissatisfied. Speaking as an old trade union leader, although never a leader of the coal miners, I have never known an occasion when they were not dissatisfied. That, however, by the way. Dissatisfaction among coal miners is not purely local; it is world wide. Only the other day we were told in the press that the greatest industrial upheaval that America has ever known had just terminated by a sort of modus vivendi, after inflicting almost incalculable loss upon the industry and the community generally, and we know that Great Britain stands on the threshold of a monstrous upheaval which may shake the country to its very foundations. The honorable gentleman says that in the coal-mining industry in Australia thereis dissatisfaction, that it is widespread, and that there is no remedy outside the provisions of the Industrial Peace Act. I am sure the House will allow me to say with what great satisfaction I learned from the lips of the honorable gentleman that the act has been most effective, as I said it would be, when introducing it, in dealing with industrial troubles. My honorable friend says that outside the act there is no means at the disposal of the miners for a peaceful and legal redress of their grievances, and he demands the appointment of local boards. He says that if I had been in office I should have granted his request. My attitude has been rightly interpreted by the honorable gentleman. “Without committing myself to an endorsement of his statement that there are good grounds for the dissatisfaction, I say that the facts must be faced. The greatest factor in industrial troubles is not material, but psychological. Half the troubles in the coal trade arise out of the nature of man. If they say there is a dispute, there is one. If they say there are good grounds for a dispute in this instance, they make out a prima facie case, and their request for legal means of redress ought to be granted. The act provides, in sections 21 to 26, for the appointment of local boards. The scope of those boards is limited, their functions duly set out in the sections dealing with them. The honorable member for Werriwa (Mt. Lazzarini) says that some time after the act was passed he asked me to appoint one of these boards. I do not remember the incident, but I accept his statement. The act, however, had only just been passed, and I naturally fell back on its machinery, which in effect provides that local boards shall be the creatures of the special tribunal.

Mr Lazzarini:

– I instanced that fact only to show that there was a demand for the local boards as soon as the act was passed.

Mr HUGHES:

– Section 23. subsection 6, provides that the special tribunal may remit certain matters to local tribunals. I think the honorable the Leader of the Opposition has made out, subject to any constitutional difficulties that may exist, a case for the appointment of local boards. We must accept the honorable gentleman as the mouthpiece of the miners, and when he says that there is dissatisfaction, that it is likely to grow, and that there is no legal redress outside the act, he makes out a case for the appointment of boards, and they should be appointed. I understand that the Government says there are constitutional difficulties in the way. 1 do not know whether there are. There may be. But when the act was being drafted, I naturally discussed such a possibility at great length, and provided in section 2 for saving out of the wreck whatever was possible. Section 2 reads -

This act shall be read and construed subject to the Constitution, and so as not to exceed the legislative power of the Commonwealth, to the intent that where any enactment thereof would, but for this section, have been construed as being in excess of that power, it shall nevertheless be a valid enactment’ to the extent to which it is not in excess of that power.

No one knows what the constitution means. And there is only one way of finding out. If you wish to find out what the powers of the police are, the most effective way perhaps is to go up to a policeman and put the matter to the test. In that way you may find out what an assault on the police means. Why listen to long dissertations on the law? Put the matter to the supreme test. Just go outside, strike an inoffensive policeman, and you will learn all about it. And so I say the only way to ascertain whether this provision of the act is or is not constitutional is to put it in force. Create the boards asked for. If that is done either of the parties, or both, under section 27, may submit the matter to the High Court. The High Court or a Justice of the High Court may determine whether in fact an industrial dispute within the meaning of the act exists ; whether a dispute is impending or whether a board has exceeded its jurisdiction. All these things are referable to the court. In my opinion, if a local tribunal is outside the scope of our powers, a special tribunal is in the same category. The Government should appoint the boards, and see what happens. I have practised in the Arbitration Court, and have amended the arbitration law, I do not know how many times. I have advised unions to appeal to the court, and know something about the arbitration law and industrial matters generally. My experience is that the most effective machinery is that which is most flexible, and the most flexible is the machinery set out in the Industrial Peace Act. It contemplates the creation of district councils, composed of members of the workers’ and employers’ organizations, dividing the whole Commonwealth into districts in which employees and employers would have quasi-legal powers, and, in fact, legal authority to deal with certain matters. They would be overlords of industrial matters within the Commonwealth. The Industrial Peace Act, in my opinion, is framed on right lines, and the boards asked for by the Leader of the Opposition should be appointed. In expressing a doubt as to the constitutionality of the act, however, the Government strikes a most serious blow at it. For its creator or the inheritors of its creator to declare the act ultra vires of the Constitution, is to create an almost insuperable difficulty. The Government says, in effect, “ This act is no good, and so we do not, we dare not, put it into force.” That is an invitation to challenge its validity. If those who have to administer it said, “ We believe in it,” then in all probability their action would not be challenged. I do not know that the employees in this case would challenge a reference to a local board. They might, but I should not care twopence if I thought that the appointment of a board was the best way to find an outlet for the grievances of the employees. I would let them see that the law really provides them with some sort of remedy, and would do what they ask.

There is one other subject about which I wish to speak, and it is this : Although time flies very rapidly, it may not have escaped the memory of honorable members that we went to the country on a matter very similar to that which the Leader of the Opposition has said is likely to arise if the unrest in the coal industry is not allayed. The condition of affairs then existing arose out of a firb which at one time could have been covered by a bushel basket. But by judicious fanning, and through other causes about which I do not wish to say anything just now, it grew into a conflagration that covered the whole industrial heavens. We went to the country to see whether, above everything else, we could not ensure industrial peace. As a result we have the Crimes Act, which says to the people, “ If you break the peace in regard to matters of trade and commerce, transport or industry, then you must look out!” We have made a new law to punish those who break the industrial peace. That is all we have done since the elections to ensure industrial peace. The Leader of the Opposition this morning asked the Government to do something else. He says, ‘ ‘ If you do not do what I ask there may be trouble which may bring certain people under the Crimes Act.” The Attorney-General says, “No, the coal-miners will not come under it.” He may be right, but if he is it is the most complete condemnation of the act that could possibly be conceived. The position is most serious if a monopoly or a scarcity of coal can be brought about. Let us remember that if the coal-miner says, “ That coal is black,” it is black, whether it is brown or any other colour. If he says that it is “ blacE,” then every engineman on our railways, every man wanting coal to run his ship or his factory, will be affected. If that is not a blow at commerce, industry, and transport, I do not know what is. So I say that if the act does not deal with that kind of thing it ought to be amended without delay. I know what a strike of this kind means. Strikes aimed at transport are most deadly and insidious. I was drawn into such a strike when the organization with which I was connected had nothing on earth to do with the dispute, and, in my desperate efforts to maintain industrial peace, I subsequently became almost the head and front of the offending.

Mr. Let. ; Is there no redress to be obtained by resort to the State tribunal?

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

Mr LATHAM:

– A dispute in a mine as to, say, the working of a particular seam by the men employed in that mine, is not in itself an interstate dispute. There may be, however, an interstate dispute involving a particular local dispute. In each case the nature of the dispute is a question of fact to be determined by the court. The matters with which local boards are intended to deal are essentially of a local character, and that brings us face to face with the real diffi- cult)’, namely, that the Commonwealth powers are limited to disputes extending beyond the limits of one State. We have to face the facts as we find them. The employers refuse to appoint representatives to sit on a local board; therefore; no board can be appointed, or, if appointed, it cannot meet with a quorum. The act contains no provision for compelling persons appointed by the Government to sit on a board ; it is therefore impossible for a board to be appointed under existing circumstances. The Prime Minister has said, however, that the Government will take steps to utilize fully the existing machinery by asking Mr. Hibble to arrange for an early hearing by the special tribunal of the disputes which are at present causing irritation amongst the coal miners. Fortunately, both sides have accepted the jurisdiction of the special tribunals, and it is hoped that they will continue to function. The Prime Minister’s proposal offers an immediate means of dealing with the situation, and is much preferable to plunging into difficulties which would probably lead to litigation, delay, expense, and disappointment. I submit that the Government is adopting the wisest course in seeking to use to the full, and immediately, the existing machinery, which is acceptable to both sides.

Debate interrupted under Standing Order -119.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.80 p.m.

page 1949

QUESTION

WAR INJURIES COMPENSATION BOARD

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

What are the terms of the appointment of members of the board to consider the question of compensation to those injured by Germans in the Great War?
Who are the claimant applicants for compensation?
What are the respective amounts of their claims?
What were the reports and what amounts were recommended?
What steps were taken by the board to hear the applicants before deciding on recommendations ?
Were any requests made to hear the claimants and what was the decision?
What are the grounds of such decisions?
Is it according to British fair play, or custom apart from legal rules to decide upon claims without hearing the persons concerned?
Will the reports of the board be printed for the information of honorable members?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

The duties of the board are -
1. To examine all claims by civilians for suffering and damage caused by enemy action.
1. To report to the Treasurer the amount of compensation, which, in the opinion of the board, should be paid to the various claimants, and to suggest the method by which reductions should be made in the event of the total compensation proposed being greater than the sum available to meet it.

It was further indicated to the board that the bases of assessment should conform with the principles laid down by the British Royal Commission appointed to deal with the assessment of similar claims of British nationals resident in the United Kingdom. 2, 3, and 4. The board has not yet completed its investigations and assessments. The complete information asked for is, therefore, not available. 5, 6, and 7. As indicated in my reply to question No. 1, compensation is being assessed in accordance with the principles laid down by the British Royal Commission. The documentary evidence furnished by the claimants, in the majority of cases, was sufficient to enable those principles to lie applied. In a few cases, however, it was necessary for the board .to seek additional evidence.

The claimants had no legal claim for compensation against the Commonwealth. Any payments made are purely ex gratia, and it is considered that the method of assessment adopted secured to the claimants full consideration of their claims.
The reports of the board when complete will be laid on the table of the Library for the information of honorable members.

page 1949

QUESTION

TRAFFIC OFFICERS FOR TELEPHONE EXCHANGES

Mr COLEMAN:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Whether the traffic officers’ positions, which are advertised, will be open to technical officers in the 4th Division?
Will the department consider the holding_ of an examination of candidates for the positions, such examinations to be open to all officers in the Service?
As all the main exchanges in the Commonwealth, and many others, are being con- verted’ into automatic exchanges:,, will’ the department receive and consider applications from, technical officers in other divisions of the Public Service:?

Mr GIBSON:
Postmaster-General · CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · CP

– Inquiries are being made,, and the desired information Will be furnished as early as possible^.

page 1950

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE CLASSIFICATION

Papuan Officers - South Australia

Mr YATES:
through Mr. Makin

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home. and. Territories, upon notice -

Whether the reclassification of the Public Service of Papua has yet been finalized?
If not, when is it anticipated it will be finalized ? 3’. Will any increments occasioned be retrospective to the date when the first request was made hy the Papuan Public Service for the reclassification ?

Mr MARR:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as f follow : -

The report of the Commonwealth Public Service Inspector, who was entrusted with the work of preparing a reclassification of the Papuan Public Service, has been completed and submitted to the Lieutenant-Governor, who is the authority under the Public ‘Service Regulations of the Territory by whom the Service is classifiable.
Advice as to the nature of the LieutenantGovernor’s, decision in regard to the Public Service. Inspector’s recommendations is expected within a few days.
It is improbable that any increments resulting from the reclassification will be retrospective to the date when the first request was made by the Papuan Public Service for the reclassification.

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

As apparent serious inconvenience and understaffing is being occasioned in certain branches of the Commonwealth Services in South Australia, will he have gazetted and immediately applied those sections of classification that have been finalized?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The sections of the classification which have been finalized have already been gazetted and put into operation.

page 1950

QUESTION

DISARMAMENT

Mr WEST:
through Mr. Fenton

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - 1.. Is- it a. fact; that the League of Nations. Preparatory Committee on Disarmament will meet on 17 th May next?

If so, has Australia a representative on the committee ?
If an Australian representative has been appointed, will the Prima Minister state if he has an- instruction to the effect that the opinion of Australia is in favour of disarmament ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers- to the. honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

According to latest advices the meeting of the Preparatory Commission, for the Disarmameat Conference has been fixed, to take place at Geneva on the 15th May. The work of this commission will be to make the necessary preparations for a. conference on the Seduction and Limitation of Armaments. 2 and 3. This Preparatory Commission will consist of the representatives of the: States which, are: members of the Council, together with representatives of Germany, the United States of America, the Union of the Socialist Soviet Republics, Bulgaria, Finland, Netherlands, Poland, Roumania, Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, should these countries accept the invitation addressed them by the League. Australia will,, therefore-, not be separately represented on. the commission. Australia, however, will be represented at the Disarmament Conference when it is held, and will then have every opportunity of expressing its views upon the subject.

page 1950

QUESTION

MILITARY CAMP AT SEYMOUR

Mr YATES:
through Mr. Makin

asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether any inquiry has been made into the recent disturbance at the Seymour camp? 2.. If so, what is the nature of the finding, who was responsible, and what penalties were imposed, if any?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The matter was inquired into by the officer commanding the camp. The disturbance was the result of football rivalry, which ceased immediately the guard turned out. The offenders have not been traced.

page 1950

QUESTION

WAR SERVICE HOMES

Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice -

What is (a) the minimum; and (6) the maximum number of rooms in houses constructed by the War Service Homes Commission?
If any house has been built with less than five rooms, is the lay-out so arranged that additional rooms can be added
What are the sizes of rooms recommended by the commission for the average family?
Are all necessary conveniences provided?

Mr HILL:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: - 1. (a) Usually four, excluding offices; (6) approximately ten, excluding offices.

This point is not overlooked, but the requirements of the applicant ordering the home are paramount if they comply with the provisions of the act, and the proposed structure represents a suitable asset. Where additions to the main structure are not .in economically sound proposal, the extra accommodation can be provided either by the construction of a verandah or an attached or detached sleepout.
In all cases the size of the rooms must comply with the ordinances and regulations of the Government or semi-Government body controlling the erection of buildings in the particular district, and must not be of eccentric design.
Each home is provided with a bathroom, foundry, and where such are available, water, gas, electric light, and sewerage are connected. Where water is not available tanks are supplied, and, in the absence of sewerage, an earth closet is provided.

page 1951

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Commonwealth Film Censorship - Report for year 1925.

Ordered to be printed.

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. - No. 1 of 1926 - Arms, Explosives, and Munition Workers’ Federation of Australia; Amalgamated Engineering Union; Australasian Society of Engineers.

page 1951

QUESTION

ALLEGED ILL-TREATMENT OF ABORIGINALS

Mr MARR:
NAT

– On the 11th March the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Coleman), asked whether consideration had been given to the series of grave charges made by Mrs. N; Francis in the Aussie magazine, and by Mr. Robertson, concerning the alleged maltreatment of aborigines by Japanese and others in the northern parts of Australia, and, if so, what action had been taken or was proposed to be taken in connexion with the matter. At the time of the honorable member’s inquiry the articles in question had not been seen by the Minister for Home and Territories, but an opportunity has since been afforded him of perusing them. The articles demonstrate clearly that the allegations made are as to the treatment of aborigines in ‘Queensland. No reference whatever is made therein to the aborigines of the Northern Territory, unless one vague reference to “ the North” could be construed as such, but, even in this case, no particulars are given and no evidence connecting that reference with the Northern Territory is furnished. As previously stated in the answer to the honorable member’s question, the care of the aborigines within the various States of the Commonwealth is the responsibility of the respective State Governments, and it would appear that the allegations made by Mrs. Francis are the concern of the Government of Queensland and not of the Commonwealth.

page 1951

QUESTION

CRUDE OIL MOTOR FUEL

Mr HILL:
CP

– On the 18th March, the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked the Minister for Works and Railways the following question : -

Is he aware that Messrs. Clarke, Padley, and Company, of West Melbourne, have an agency of a German invention which uses crude oil with the result that they can run a car carrying 100 passengers at a cost of less than Jd. per -car mile?

If not, will he request the Commonwealth Railway Department to make inquiries with a view to utilizing such invention by arrangement with the manufacturers, and so reduce the railway costs?

The Commonwealth Railways Commissioner has furnished the following report : -

Messrs. Clarke, Padley, and Company have already communicated with rae regarding this matter. The Commonwealth Railways Commissioner is keeping himself closely posted with the developments in rail motor cars, and reports are available to him from officers of the various State railway systems, who have specially visited other countries to ascertain the latest improvements. When it becomes necessary to purchase rail motor cars for use on the Commonwealth railways, he will be in -possession of the best advice to enable a decision to be arrived at as to the most suitable car to adopt.

page 1951

QUESTION

MENTALLY AFFLICTED SOLDIERS

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
NAT

– On the 18th March, the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) asked the following questions : -

Were certain ex-soldiers removed from civil State mental hospitals during the year 1918, and placed in a military mental hospital?
If so, why?
Did the Commonwealth bear the cost of maintenance, medical, and other treatment of such patients in the No. 16 Australian General Hospital?

I am now in a position to furnish the following replies : -

Prior to the opening of No. 10 Australian General Hospital, the soldier mental patients were admitted to State institutions, including the overseas ward for service men at Royal Park. It then became the policy of the Department of Defence to concentrate its mental patients in a special ward in No. 10 Australian General Hospital.
Treatment in civil institutions was only a temporary measure pending provision of accommodation for treatment of such cases under military control.
Yes.

page 1952

QUESTION

RAVAGES OF THE TIMBER BORER

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
NAT

– On the 17th March the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Parker Moloney) referred to the ravages of the borer in Australian timber and asked whether the Government would cause an investigation to be made with the object of eliminating the pest. I am now in a position to inform the honorable member that this question concerns the Department of Health only in this way: The Quarantine Act is designed to prevent the introduction into the Commonwealth of plant diseases and insect pests, including such things as timber borers. It is probable that many kinds of timber have their own specific parasites, while other parasites are common to different countries or to different classes of timber. New phases of this question, therefore, are constantly arising and have to be dealt with as they arise through the detection of these borers in imported timber. Each new variety of parasite has, in its turn, been dealt with when discovered, but it is to be expected that others will from time to time be found under one of the many conditions in which wooden articles arrive in the Commonwealth as imports. No general principles can be formulated adequate to cover all possibilities, but the greatest care is being taken to detect new channels of danger and to deal with these as detected. The major portion of the borer problem to-day, however, is the occurrence over a wide area and on a considerable scale of borer insects, either indigenous to or long established in Australia. As stated by the Prime Minister in the House on the 22nd instant, the whole question of carrying out investigations regarding white ant and borer pests will be referred to the Institute of Science and Industry when reconstituted.

page 1952

QUESTION

KYOGLE TO BRISBANE RAILWAY

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · Echuca · CP

– (By leave.) - As a number of questions have been asked in the House from -time to time in connexion with the construction of the Grafton-Kyogle-South Brisbane Railway, I desire to state that the work of connecting Sydney and Brisbane by a standard gauge railway is governed by an agreement between the Commonwealth and the States of New South Wales aud Queensland, dated 16th September, 1924, which agreement was in that year ratified by the Parliaments of the Commonwealth, New South Wales and Queensland. Under the agreement the work i9 vested in a railway council, consisting of the Commonwealth Railways Commissioner, the Chief Railways Commissioner, New South Wales, and the Commissioner for Railways, Queensland. The council has entire control of the work, and determines the order and the terms and conditions under which the works are to be carried out. Under the agreement, the cost of the works is, in the first instance, provided by the Commonwealth. The States of New South Wales and Queensland pay their quota on a population basis, the Commonwealth contributing one-fifth, and, in addition, for the time being bearing the quota which, had Victoria, South Australia, and Western Australia been parties to the agreement, would have been borne by those States. The work consists of re-laying and strengthening of the railway between Grafton and Kyogle, and the construction of a railway from Kyogle to South Brisbane. The work between Grafton and Kyogle, which is being carried out by the Chief Railways Commissioner for New South Wales, acting as agent for the council, is now well in hand. Considerable work has also been done by the Commissioner for Railways, Queensland, acting as agent for the council, in the vicinity of Rocklea towards South Brisbane and also towards the border. Last year the Railway Coun- cil invited tenders, which closed on the 1st September, 1925, for the construction of two portions of the railway, 26^ miles being in New South Wales, and 60J miles in Queensland. One tender was submitted for the work in Queensland, and two for the work in New South. Wales. At the time of the closing of the tenders, sealed estimates by the railway construction engineers of New South Wales and Queensland were also submitted. The total of the two sealed estimates was considerably lower than the total of the two lowest tenders. The council proposed to arrange that the work be undertaken by the Railways Commissioners of -New South Wales and Queensland respectively, and advised the parties to the agreement accordingly. These proposals formed the basis of negotiations between the Commonwealth Government and the States of New South Wales and Queensland. A conference of the representatives of the three parties was held in Melbourne in January last, resulting in an understanding that the sealed estimates of the chief railway construction engineers should be regarded as a firm tender, subject to the following stipulations : -

The payment to be on a quantity basis according to measurement, &c, at rates shown in the schedule of quantities and prices in the sealed estimate of the Chief Railway Construction Engineer.
Provision to be made for adjustment for or against the State authorities in the event of increase or decrease in wages, or decrease or increase in hours of work as may be fixed by award of Arbitration Court or industrial tribunal, or in such other manner approved by the unanimous decision of the council.
Contract documents to include such other provisos as are usual in railway construction contracts regarding carrying out of the work, &c, as determined by the council.

After several conferences between the Railway Council and the Crown Solicitors of the Commonwealth, New South Wales, and Queensland, contract agreements have now been signed by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Commonwealth, and the respective Premiers on behalf of the States of New South Wales and Queensland, whereby the works will be carried out at the rates shown in the sealed estimate. If the total of the two lowest outside tenders is compared with the total of the amounts for which the respective States, on behalf of their Chief Railway Construction Engineers, have now contracted to do the work, it will be seen that a considerable sum of money is saved to the Commonwealth and the other parties to the agreement. The lowest public tenders, including departmental supervision, which necessarily has to be incurred, and which must be added when comparing with the State contract price, were as follow: -

The saving on the lowest public tenders is therefore £201,968. Compared with the lowest public tender in Queensland, the contract with the State represents a very large saving. Compared with the lowest public tender in New South Wales, the contract with the State represents an increase of approximately £1,S00, and in this latter case the council has not acccepted the lowest tender, but has decided that the preferable course would be to have the work carried out in the same way that it is being done in Queensland. The estimated cost of the whole work was £3,500,000, -and under the Grafton to South Brisbane Railway Act .1924 authority is given for that sum to be advanced by the Treasurer to the railway council in control of the work. The estimate of £3,500,000 was prepared by the Royal Commission on the Uniform Gauge in 1921 without proper surveys; but, when the tenders and sealed estimates were received, the railway council prepared a full estimate based on reliable data, and the work is now estimated to cost £4,000,000. A bill will be introduced to Parliament shortly to provide for the extra £500,000. In conclusion, it might be emphasized that the agreement recently made with the Governments of New South Wales and Queensland, and which will later be placed before thi*

Parliament for ratification, places those Governments in the same position as private: contractors, and they are bound to carry out the work at the rates stipulated in their contracts.

page 1954

ASSENT TO BILLS

Assent to the following bills reported : -

Western Australia Grant Bill.

Power Alcohol Bounty Bill.

page 1954

HOUR OF MEETING

Motion (by Mr. Bruce) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising; adjourn until 11 o’clock a.m. to-morrow.

page 1954

QUESTION

TARIFF

Customs and Excise Duties. in Committee of Ways and Means:

Consideration resumed from 23rd March (vide page 1933).

Item 105 -

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Sub-item aa of this item is intended to rectify an anomaly. A previous parliament decided to admit knitted cotton piece goods in tubular form free of duty, principally with the object of helping the meat packers to pack their export meat acceptably. But for some years the importers have avoided the incidence of the tariff by splitting their tubular knitted goods and bringing them out here as cotton piece goods and thereby importing asemi-manufactured article duty free. Parliament decided to close up thatloophole by adding the words “ or otherwise “ ; “but another loophole has been discovered ; and inorder to close it and make the position unmistakably clear I move -

That sub-item aa be amended to read -

Piece Goods, Cotton Silk, or containing silk, but not containing wool, knitted in tubular form or otherwise.

Mr Mann:

– Will our acceptance of this amendment involve any articles that are not included ?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Itwill only involve articles ina semi-manufactured state which in the past have been admitted free under this item.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Perhaps I ought toexplain to the committee that the only ‘alteration made by sub-itemb is that the word “towels “ has been eliminated. Towels and towelling will be dealt with on a later item.

Mr MANN:
Berth

.. - I understand from a conversation I nave had with the Minister for Trade and Customs that he intends to propose an amendment to item 120o which will meet my objection to this item in its present form. Would it bepossible to take 120cin conjunction with 105b? I think it would simplify the proceedings if we did so. I understand that the word “ towels,” as it stood in the schedulebefore this amendment was introduced, included all towels, and that that was not intended.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I have , an amendment to item120c which I think will meet the wishes of honorable members. Its object is to retain the duty on all towels and towelling similar to those that are made in Australia, but to revert to the duty on towels and towelling not made in Australia that was imposed prior to the introduction of the amending schedule of last year.

Mr MANN:
Perth

. -I understand that the object of the. amendment which the Minister proposes to introduce to item 120c is to retain the present duty on Turkish and other towels and towelling that is made in Australia, but to revert to the previous duty on towels and towelling not made in Australia. To put it in another way, the increased duty will be imposed only on towels and towelling similartothat made in Australia.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– That is so.

Mr MANN:

– In that case I have no objection tooffer to this sub-item.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– In view of what is practically the unanimous desire of the committee, I am prepared to accept the suggestion of the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton). I therefore move -

That sub-item d be amended to read : - “And on and after 25th March, 1026, (d) Silk, or containing silk, or having silk worked thereon, except piece goods enumerated in sub-items aa and f ad valorem 10 per cent. British, 124 per cent, intermediate, and 20 per cent, general.

The intermediate tariff is at present inoperative, and it will continue to be so until proposals are brought before Parliament.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr J FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931; LP from 1944

.- I desire to refer to item 105k For a long time the industry concerned has been subjected to unfair competition from countries where cheap coloured labour is employed. If we are to maintain the high standard of living which we have set up, we must make it possible for industries to pay Australian rates of wages. Before this tariff was introduced, many of the mills in Australia found great difficulty in carrying on. But the amended tariff has benefited them considerably; some Queensland mills have now six months’ work ahead of them. The Australian mills have been handicapped greatly becauseof the importations, mostly from Japan, of large quantities of inferior material. Some of it was almost rubbish, yet it was got up in such a way that it was purchased in large quantities by Australian housewives, who realized later that it was not so good as it was represented to be. I wish it to be understood that I am not opposed to protection, especially so far as this industry is concerned; but I hope that this tariff will not mean that the Australian consumer will be called upon to pay more for materials not manufactured in Australia. I refer to alpacas, silesias, mohairs, and lustres. These goods are not manufactured in Australia, but they contain wool. I have made careful inquiries, and have ascertained that there is not the slightest prospect of them being manufactured in this country, manufacturers having their hands quite full with other work. I should like to know if the articles referred to come under item 105f (3), dutiable at 15 per cent. British, 20 per cent. intermediate, and 25 per cent. general.

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Yes.

Mr MANN:
Perth

.- In view of the vote taken yesterday on cotton- tweeds, and the very obvious determination of the committee to support the extra textile duties, I do not propose to speak against any of the remaining textile items in the schedule, but I wish to make it quite clear that this does not in any way indicate a change of opinion on my part. I am convinced that the imposition of these duties will bring about a revulsion of feeling, and, eventually, a demand for their withdrawal. I hope that the committee will give careful attention to the extra duties imposed in the division relating to metals and machinery. I intend to take every opportunity to secure a revision of the extreme protective duties.

Mr PARSONS:
Angas

.- As a believer in the future of our woollen industry, the British preferential duties imposed under sub-item 105f (1) and (2) have my unqualified support. I hope that as the result of these duties the woollen industry in Australia will go ahead by leaps and bounds. Lustres or alpacas are used extensively as linings for the higher grade ready-to-wear and measure garments for men. Manufacturers of this class of goods come into direct competition with manufacturers of imported readytowear suits. Alpaca or lustre lining is used because, unlike cotton lining, it is uncrushable, and gives the finished garment a better appearance. The manufacturers wish to be in a position to compete with the imported article, and they have asked me to see if it is possible to have the material admitted duty free, if they enter into an engagement to use it exclusively for linings.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 106-

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

.- Under the 1921 schedule a great deal of difficulty in administration was experienced in connexion with items 105e and 106. Cases had to be opened on the wharfs in order to ascertain if items under 106 were included with items under 105e. Both are now dutiable at the same rate.

Mr PARSONS:
Angas

.- If the altered duties will do away with the difficulties mentioned by the Minister, and obviate the opening of packages and cases on the wharfs, it will be of great advantage to the trading community.

Item agreed to.

Item 107-

By omitting the figures “40” appearing in the second last line, and inserting in their stead the figures “ 48.”

Item 110 - continued.

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

– I draw the attention of the committee to the additional duties upon this item. Do honorable members think it is justifiable to further increase the cost of clothing to this extent? For instance, honorable members will see that on a costume, dress or robe of silk, or containing silk the general tariff is 15s., and 45 per cent. ad valorem; in other words if the landed cost of a Paris robe were 40s, the duty would amount to 64s. I suggest that if the duties imposed by the 1921 tariff were retained, local industry would be receiving a fair measure of protection. In the windows of the huge emporiums of Melbourne we can see for sale at from £7 7s. to £15 15s., robes which probably cost not more than 30s. or £2. In order to test the feeling of the committee, I move -

That the Item be amended by inserting the following in sub-item b (3), after “45 per cent.” : - “And on and after 25th March. 1926, British 20 per cent., intermediate 30 per cent., general 35 per cent.

Amendment negatived.

Item agreed to.

Item 114 (Caps and Sewn Hats) postponed.

Item 115 (Socks and Stockings) agreed to.

Item 118-

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– This is one of the items upon which a general reduction of duties has been effected, but since the schedule was submitted to the House, the Tariff Board has further investigated the duties on carpet felt and under carpet felt. It is not the policy of the Government to reduce the duties on articles that are made in Australia, and as a very fine industry for the production of carpet felts is established in the constituency of the honorable member for Cook, I move -

That the item be amended by adding the following: -

Mr Watt:

– Does that mean a retention of the duties in the old tariff?

Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– No; I am proposing a slight increase.

Mr C RILEY:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

.- I support the amendment, and am glad that the Minister has accepted the recommendation of the Tariff Board to reimpose the duties on imported carpet felt. As he has said, a very fine industry has been established in my electorate, and under the direction of an expert felt maker from England the factory is producing all types of felt, including all wool felt, carpet felt, under carpet felt, slipper felt, cattle ruglinings, saddle cloths and a- few other small items. The works are capable of supplying the whole of Australia’s requirements in these articles. The increase in duties has been asked for by the company, not with a view to increasing the price in the local market, but merely as a protection against unfair competition from abroad. The works are capable of producing 20,000 yards of felt per week. Carpet felt to about the value of £120,000 is imported annually, and Parliament should encourage a local industry which will retain that money in Australia. I call the attention of honorable members to samples of slipper felts; carpet felts, under carpet felts, and saddle cloths. Local manufacture of these articles will help considerably other branches of the woollen industry, the tanners and manufacturers of gelatine. Under carpet felt is made from cowhair.

Until recently there was no use for cowhair, and tanners employed a process that actually destroyed it. Felt manufacture having created a market for cowhair, the tanners have changed their process, and they and the makers of gelatine will save many thousands of pounds annually. Itis a great pleasure to visit the felt factory and see the quality of its products.. Australian felts are superior to the English article in the opinion of experts and many large retailers. Since the Sydney factory has been producing felt the English combine has reduced the price of one class of felt from 7s. to 5s. 9d a yard, and the second quality from 5s. 9d to 5s 2d. a yard. If the Ford Motor Works require large quantities of upholstering felt, the factory in my electorate will be able to supply it. I trust the Minister will give favorable consideration to the question of protecting cattle rug lining, which is not provided for under this item. I hope that its inclusion will be favorably considered by the Government,and that in the next schedule submitted to Parliament provision will be made for the adequate protection of cattle rug lining.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 120.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– As quilts are entirely manufactured in an Australian factory, which employs 300 or 400 hands, I move -

That the item be amended by adding to sub-item a the following:- “ and on and after 25th March. 1926 : - aa- Feather or Down

Quilts, ad val., British Preferential, 35 per cent.; Intermediate, 40 per cent.; General, 50 per cent.”

If this amendment is adopted, the duty originally imposed upon quilts will be restored.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs: · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

.- I move-

That the item be further amended by adding the following to sub-item (c) : - The object of the amendment is to- delete the duty- previously imposed on imported towels, and at the same time to protect the towel-malting industry in the Commonwealth, as towels of a kind which are manufactured in Australia will automatically come under the higher duty. This amendment is submitted for the purpose of clarifying, the item. I have information to the effect that a celebrated British manufacturer is coming to Australia to undertake the manufacture of towels,, and if this amendment is adopted the protection which he desires will be afforded. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Item 121 (Curtains and Blinds) agreed to. Item 128 (Milling Silk) agreed to. Item 135 (Accoutrements; buttons; braid and lace, &c.), agreed to. Division VI. - Metals and Machinery. Item 143. {: #subdebate-19-0-s31 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan. . Under this item provision is made for the imposition of a duty of 20s. British, 30s. intermediate, and 40s. general on scrap iron and steel imported into Australia I trust the Minister **(Mr. Pratten)** and the members of the committee will agree to allow the articles mentioned in this item, which are absolutely essential in foundry work, to. enter Australia free of duty. If we increase the cost of producing articles in which these commodities are used, we shall be placing many manufacturers who are using scrap fron and steel entirely out of court. Scrap iron and steel must be available to enable foundries. to carry ontheir work. When this subject was being investigated by the. Tariff Board - I am not blaming the board - those controlling foundries were unaware that an inquiry was being: conducted by the board at the request of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company. It is in the interests of the manufacturers and workers of Australia and' our progress generally., that material of this description, which is required for manufacturing purposes, shall not bear this impost. Prior to the war there was not much necessity for a duty on scrap iron and steel, but during the war period, when there was little opportunity of supplies being obtained from overseas, discarded machinery and scrap material was brought from all parts of Australia. In Western Australia such machinery was dispatched hundreds of miles by rail to the various foundries, in which a mixture consisting of 50 per cent, of scrap iron and 50 per cent, of pig iron was used in foundry work generally. Some large and important firms are interested in this question, including C. Monteath and Sons, J. Nixon and Sons, Mephan Ferguson Proprietary Limited, John Danks and Sons Proprietary Limited, P. Laughton and Son, and J. and T. Muir. In dealing with the duty on scrap iron, these manufacturers state - >The imposition of this duty can have no other effect than to increase the cost of production, which, in turn, will :be reflected in a falling-off in the demand for cast-iron goods. Honorable members are aware of the extensive businesses conducted by manufacturers, particularly in Victoria, who use cast, iron in their work. The statement continues - >It is apparent, from the reports which were published in the press at the time of the adoption of this schedule, that the reason for the imposition of the duty in question was in order that there should be a larger consumption of pig iron, with a consequent advantage to the local manufacturers of the latter commodity. It is unfortunate that the matter came 'before the Tariff Board without the knowledge of the ironfounders of Australia generally, and, if the hearing of the case was advertised at the time, the advertisement was not even noticed by any manufacturer or organization of manufacturers, and, consequently, no case was presented on their behalf before the Tariff Board. We would, therefore, like the opportunity to take exception at this stage to certain of the evidence tendered before the Tariff Board, and to emphasize the point that, owing to the increased cost of castings, there has been such a falling-off in demand. I should like honorable members opposite particularly to note the following : - >That it would bc extremely likely that not only will the object of the imposition of the duty in question fail in its purpose, but, in addition, a number of iroumoulders and workers in this country will be thrown out of employment. We can cite instances, particularly in cast-iron pipe foundries, where numbers of hands have already been paid off, and there is every prospect of further considerable reductions of such stairs. This position is being brought about owing to the high cost of production of cast iron pipes in Australia, which is not only holding up many schemes which engineers have in contemplation, but is forcing them to the adaption of inferior substitutes, and rendering possible the importation of cast-iron pipes from abroad at a lower price than that for which they can be locally manufactured. Honorable members will doubtless recall that in many large tenders recently accepted in connexion with water supplies, cast-iron pipes have not been used owing to the excessive cost. The report proceeds - >We take it that the amended tariff schedule was adopted for the purpose of further protecting Australian industries, and not from the point of view of increasing revenue. In order to accomplish this end, we understand it is the policy of the Government to admit from abroad (free) raw materials which are to be used for purposes of manufacture in Australian factories where such raw materials are not obtainable within Australia. It is the policy of the department to allow goods which are not manufactured in Australia to come in free under item 404. {: .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr Coleman: -- Is the honorable member dealing with the duty on scrap iron ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Yes. A duty is being imposed principally at the request of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, which claims that it can produce at a slightly higher cost an article which will enable smelting to be done without the use of scrap iron. {: .speaker-KXD} ##### Mr Watson: -- Does not the Broken Hill Proprietary Company use scrap iron ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I do not think so. In further dealing with this matter, the manufacturers state - >Cast-iron scrap is an absolutely essential raw material commodity used in all iron foundries, and supplies of this material in anything like sufficient quantities for foundry purposes are absolutely unobtainable. During the war period all the available scrap iron in Australia was collected to enable foundries to carry on their operations, because it was impossible to obtain supplies from other countries. The statement continues - >Specifications of cast-iron work almost invariably provide for the admixture with pigiron of previously melted iron. This course tends to purify the mixture, and, unless the ultimate cost of the commodity is going to be vastly increased by two separate meltings of pig "iron, the end is attained by the -use of machinery scrap. The use of scrap in iron foundries* is universal and practically essential, but it is not obtainable in Australia in sufficient quantities to meet the demands of Aus-. tralian foundries, and must, of necessity, be imported. During the war, when it became impossible to import supplies from abroad, dealers in cast-iron scrap scoured the length and breadth of the country for all descriptions of disused mining and other machinery which previously it would have been unprofitable to break up and transport to the iron foundries. Prices of this material rose to an exorbitant figure, but the imperative necessity for its use compelled iron foundries to purchase it irrespective of price. Thus scrap, which immediately before the war was selling at about £3 to £3 10s. per ton, rose in price to as high as £14 and £15 per ton, but still found purchasers. Throughout Western Australia, old stamp mills were brought from long distances and sold at high prices in Perth, simply for scrap iron. Some were brought from far beyond Kalgoorlie. The prices received for them ranged from £14 to £15 per ton. The iron founders must have scrap iron to mix with pig iron if they are to make proper castings for certain work. The report proceeds - >Consequently all available cast iron scrap, even to the remotest parts of the various States, was well cleaned out, so that to-day within Australia there is no dependable supply of this material, and only on odd occasions are small lots of a few tons offered. In addition to dealing with other phases of the question, the report points out that the figures submitted to the Tariff Board, to show the importations of pig iron into Australia over a period of years, were not quite fair. It stated - >The case for a duty on cast iron scrap as presented to the Tariff Board by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited, was, to say the very least of it, somewhat misleading. Referring to the importations of scrap iron, that company quoted figures from the Commonwealth of Australia official statistics of overseas imports, their quotations being as follows : - For 9 months ended March, 1925, 17,242 tons. The impression was created that prior to 1919 our importations of pig iron were very small, and that because, in 1922-3, more than 24,000 tons were imported, the interests of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company were being adversely affected. Even if more comprehensive figures were not submitted to the board by the witnesses that it examined, I submit that it should have taken steps to obtain them. Had it done so it would have found that as far back as 1906 we imported more than 16,000 tons of pig iron annually, and that in 1914-5 a good deal more than that came here. In the period 1906-1915 the figures varied from something over 22,000 tons, to about 14,000 tons. It will be seen therefore, that for very many years, until the war dislocated all our industries, the Australian iron founders imported large quantities of scrap iron. Honorable members should realize that a mixture of pig iron and scrap iron is necessary to obtain a first-rate casting for making stoves and other similar articles. The importations of scrap iron in the war years were small because it was quite impossible for them to be large. Great Britain needed all the scrap iron that she had for her own use. In the interests of. good workmanship it is a false policy to attempt to force iron founders to use more pig iron than is desirable. For water hydrants, stoves, and a good many other articles that 1 could enumerate, a special quality of casting is necessary. The manufacturer says in effect, "If I am obliged to use more pig iron than is necessary to make a good casting, I shall have to turn out inferior work." If a duty is imposed upon imported scrap iron, the founders will have to use iron pipes in its stead, as they have already done in some cases, to obtain the proper mixture of materials to make good castings. The imposition of this duty can only result in the unemployment of many men who are now working in iron foundries. It is not necessary for the protection of the industry, and I urge honorable members to vote against it. {: #subdebate-19-0-s32 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- This duty is being imposed because scrap iron has been dumped in Australia, to the detriment of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company. Iron founders are using it instead of locally-manufactured pig iron. I am certain that our iron founders could find in Australia all the scrap iron that they need, if they would search for it. The Broken Hill Proprietary Company has to use scrap iron, and it is able to obtain it locally, and so could every other engineering company that needs it, if it cared to search farit. Weshouldnot allowscrap iron from other countries to be dumped here, and so limit the use of our own pig iron. Mr.Gregory. - The iron founders say that they need a mixture of 50 per cent. pig iron and 50 percent.scrap iron, {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Have I not already pointed out that the Broken Hill proprietaryCompany must itself mix pig iron and scrap iron? I trust Chat honorable members will support the duty, andso encourage the use of pig iron made from our own ore. {: #subdebate-19-0-s33 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .- The iron founders have declared definitely that scrap iron is essential to their industries,and that they are unable to obtain sufficient supplies locally. I regret thatmisleading figures were submitted to the Tariff Board by the persons in favour of the imposition of this duty; but that doesnot relieve the board of theobligation to satisfy itself that the wise presentedto it was basedon asound foundation. The figures quoted by the honorable member forSwan **(Mr. Gregory)** show that from 1906 to 1914-5 Australia made large importations of scrap iron. The figures fell off during the war years, because of circumstances over which the iron founders had mo control; but assoon as the dislocations caused by the warwere overcome, large importations wereagain made. But the importations in 1923-4 totalledonly 17,000 tons, as against 16,000 tons in 1906, in spite of the development that had occurred in the meantime m the Australian engineering industry. That shows conclusively that scrap iron is notbeing dumped here. If honorable members insist on the imposition of this duty they will be adopting a shortsighted policy, of the penny-wise pound-foolish description, that will frustratethe achievement of theirobject. The Broken Hill Proprietary Company is making very good progress withits ironworks,andreasonable and regular advances are shown in its production of pig iron.Seeing that it has been shown beyond question that anadmixture ofscrap iron and pig iron isdesirable to obtain satisfactory castings for certain manufactures, we should not place an obstacle in the way of the iron founders getting the scrap iron that they need. The recommendation of the Tariff Board is based on a one-sided in vestigation; and on the facts before it, the committee should vote against this sub-item. It has not been shown . that there is an abnormal influx of scrap iron into thiscountry, but, on the other hand, it has been shown that our manufacturers have been unable to obtain adequate supplies locally. {: #subdebate-19-0-s34 .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN:
Perth .- The honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** has stated that scrap ironenters this country in competition with Australian pig iron. I point out that scrap iron is used in the foundries in conjunction with pig iron ; if pig iron only were used it would have to be melted twice to get the same results. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -Nonsense! {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- It all depends upon the purposefor which the iron is required. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- I have seen itusedboth in chillsand in sand. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -For many purposes, such as the manufacture of cast-iron pipes, the specifications require that the pig iron shallbemelted with acertain amount of scrap ironto get the proper composition.. The physical properties of pig iron are peculiar;incertain conditions they have to be modified. To melt the pig iron twice is obviouslyexpensive, and consequently the generalpractice is to mix it with scrap iron. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- That was the old method ; butwe have improved on it duringrecent years. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- A method which enables us to use our waste material 'to economic advantage appears to me to be a good one. Should scrap iron be unobtainable, and the pig iron have to be melted twice, the cost of cast-iron pipes will become so great that substitutes will be used, or cast-iron pipes imported from other countries where the cost of manufacture is less. During the war period Australia was scoured for sources of scrap iron. I know that every available piece of scrap iron on the Western Australian gold-fields whichcould be economically used was gathered up and used; but in spite of What was then done, the local supplies were inadequate. We have now, however, got back to normal pre-war conditions. There hasbeen no unduly increased importation in recent years, and no competition with pig iron. On the contrary, the importations of pig iron have dropped from 150,000 tons to about 50,000 tons annually. That shows the enormous increase in the business done by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, owing to the absence of competition and the protection, which has been accorded it in other directions. If the importation: of scrap" iron is prohibited, serious- injury will be done to- a fundamental industry which,, because in is capable of decentralization:,, is found in all parts of the Commonwealth., and. gives employment to many men.. The iron founders throughout Australia,, who- are already experiencing, difficulty, view this matter with alarm. They state that they could cite instances of numbers of men having already been put off,, and that there is every prospect of further reductions of their staffs being- made. I asked at representative of' the firm- of Mephan Ferguson, of Footscray, to- give me a specific instance. Me- said that in his own- foundry fifteen men- had already been put off, and! that more would follow them' later because of insufficient supplies oi raw material. Hie added that the cost of smelting pig iron, twice had prevented his fern, from obtaining orders which it might otherwise have received!.. The absence of scrap iron is seriously handicapping this industry and causing- unemployment. Conditions during the coming winter will be- serious enough, without increasing the number of the unemployed. Imported scrap iron can be obtained in Western Australia for £6 5s.. a ten. whereas pig iron from the Broken Hill Proprietary Company cannot be landed there under £10 5s a ton. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- That may be due to the shipping combine. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- Whatever the cause, we ask for relief. The existing difficulty should not. be increased by the imposition of higher duties. I am not certain as to the proportion of pig iron and cast iron hi. the admixture, generally used. But let us' consider what these costs mean if the materials are mixed in equal quantities- {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- The proportion depends on the quality of the- material required. Usually there- is- less* scrap iron than- pig iron. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- Let us suppose that the mixture contains equal' quantities of pig iron and scrap iron. In that case trie cost of the raw material would be £8' 5s. a ton. If, however,, the people of Western Australia are forced to use pig. iron only, the- cost will Be £10' 5s. per ton-, in addition to the expenses incurred in connexion with the second smelting of the material. Should the proportion of the scrap iron in the admixture be reduced, the position becomes worse. The iron founders are in a very grave position, and their position will soon be reflected on that of other sections of the community. The Tariff Board's recommendation was based on inaccurate and misleading information in that it took into consideration only the changes in- the importations- since the war and disregarded, the pre-war figures. The embargo on the export of metals from England during the war period was entirely responsible for- this Australian industry being so seriously handicapped awing to. the shortage of scrap iron. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- Will the honorable member. telL us why scrap iron is exported, to the East I {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- I do not know the reason. It may be that it pays those in the eastern States^ better to. ship their scrap kora to. the East than to send it to Western Australia. There- may be some-. local handling of scrap iron ia the: manner indicated by the honorable member, but that does- not- necessarily represent the movement in Australia- as a whole.. I am credibly informed that at the present time sufficient quantities of scrap iron cannot be obtained in Australia. I repeat that this is not a- centralized industry; it is- established in- every State. It should, therefore, be possible to draw upon local' supplies- in each State. If Australian founders- could get their' requirements in Australia would- they import them from abroad ? Let me now refer to another aspect of this question. The greatest demand- for. this material ls probably in. connexion with the manufacture of cast-iron pipes. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- No. It is used for everything-. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- Probably more of this material is used in the manufacture of cast iron pipes for irrigation and drainage schemes, and water supplies than in any other direction. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- It is used in- the manufacture of all classes of iron and steel. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- I did not say that it was not. But more of it is used in? the manufacture of cast-iron pipes than in. any other individual instance. The additional cost of these pipes resulting from these higher duties will fail upon municipalities, trusts, and other public bodies which are supplying public utilities. The additional cost will, therefore, have to be met by increased taxation. I believe that common sense will prevail in connexion with this item, that honorable members will realize the force of the arguments that have been put forward. I hope that no undue obstacle will be placed in the way of reducing these duties. {: #subdebate-19-0-s35 .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh .- I point out to the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Mann)** that the reason that those engaged in the iron and steel trade as ironfounders are able to obtain imported scrap iron is that quantities of this material arrive here as ship's ballast. Many of the railway companies of Great Britain practically give away their discarded railway chairs to the shipping companies to be used for ballast purposes. On arrival of the vessels in Australia, the material is unloaded. Manufacturers here naturally desire to obtain it, as the shipping companies are prepared to sell it at a low price, thus seriously menacing our own Australian iron industry and trade. Consignments of. scrap have been sent from Australia to Japan; some of it, I regret to say, from Government railway workshops. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Is that good for Japan, or for Australia? {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN: -- It is not a good policy to export material which could be used in Australia, and for our own manufacturers to use material which has been brought here as ballast. That source of supply may be cut off at any time, and we should, therefore, conserve our own supplies, and learn to be self-reliant. I favour using in Australia all the material that can be made available for, and by, Australian industries. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- Can the honorable member explain why we both export and import? Do we sell to Japan at a higher price than we pay for the imported material ? {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN: -- That would be a commercial transaction by dealers, conducted for the purpose of securing a. profit, and without a moment's thought of the future and the internal requirements of this nation. Honorable members with freetrade tendencies take full advantage of every opportunity to belittle Australian industries, and in connexion with this item I challenge their bona fides. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- What does the honorable member mean? Is that another insinuation ? {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN: -- Australians have nothing te thank the honorable member for. He has done everything possible in this debate, and in the debate on other measures to retard and strangle Australian industries. The figures quoted by the honorable member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse)** this afternoon prove conclusively that the local supplies are sufficient for our requirements, so the Minister is justified in standing by the item. {: #subdebate-19-0-s36 .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES:
Adelaide . -I challenge the statement made ' by the manufacturers. My factory life extended over a period of seventeen years, and although ' casting was not my job - I was a japanner - for the sake of physical exercise I' spent many hours breaking up pig iron for the cupola, and I saw many castings in the chill and in the sand. At no time do I remember seeing a great quantity of scrap iron mixed with pig iron for use in the cupola, though a good deal of it was used for small castings, notably bedsteads. As the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Foster)** knows, the firm which employed me did a great deal of stove casting, and were practically the only people who did bedstead casting. Usually pig and scrap iron are used on a fifty-fifty basis to secure the required tensility for water piping. This mixture gives a quicker, and therefore a better, result from the stand-point of cost. We used to start the cupola early in the morning, but would not be able to cast until about 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock. If pig iron is broken into small lumps naturally it melts more quickly, and the cost of the operation is reduced. This, I think, is one of the reasons why scrap iron is used with pig iron. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Used by itself, pig iron produces a very brittle article. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I am aware of that, but I understand that iron founders use a suitable alloy to obviate brittleness For certain classes of goods they use aluminium. There are a hundred and one ways in which they produce different castings. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- A large proportion of scrap iron has to be used in the making of cast-iron pipes. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- Possibly the honorable member for Swan is right, but I doubt if the use of scrap iron is imperative. I am inclined to think that it is used becauses it produces a quicker flow of metal. Every one who has had any experience of casting knows that a mixture of metal that has been already smelted with pig iron will induce a more rapid flow than if pig iron has to be fired down by itself. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- That is not so in principle. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I do not question the technical knowledge of the honorable member for Perth, but I think that scrap iron is used because it is the cheapest mixture. It is gathered generally by bottle-gatherers or marine-store dealers, who have to accept the price ruling at the various foundries. As stated by the honorable member for Hindmarsh **(Mr. Makin),** a certain quantity has been exported to Japan from South Australia. That subject was ventilated in the South Australian Parliament. The Premier, when asked if the successful tenderer was sending the scrap iron from the Islington workshops to Japan, replied that he had no knowledge of the transaction. Apparently the contractor, like the average business man, was not concerned whether the interests of Australia were affected. Japan paid the highest price, so he sent the scrap iron to that country. As the honorable member, for Hindmarsh stated, scrap iron is brought to Australia as ballast. It pays ship-owners to ballast with that class of material instead of sand or stone, because it is a marketable commodity, and revenue from its sale is offset against the cost of the voyage to Australia in search of cargo. The figures relating to the position indicate clearly that we should take definite action. For the three years prior to the war, the importations were approximately 22,000 tons a year. The honorable member for Perth has stated that we are now getting back to normal. Our importations in 1921-2 totalled 18,942 tons; in 1922-3, 24,282 tons; and 1923-4, 17,461 tons. These figures amply justify the recommendation of the Tariff Board. Ironmoulders naturally have to advance a reason to justify their opposition to the duty; but, unless I have a definite assurance from a practical ironmoulder, I shall refuse to believe rhat castings from pig iron, and without the admixture of scrap iron, are too brittle. Though I was not an ironmoulder, when employed in an Adelaide factory I could do, and did, a little bit of everything. I was familiar with the ramifications of the entire establishment. I cannot accept the statement circulated to honorable members unless a qualified person will prove that the admixture of scrap iron is necessary in order to use the pig iron produced in this country. The figures show that unless prompt action is taken the local industry will be ruined by the ballast that is brought from countries where scrap iron is plentiful. One honorable member has suggested that scrap iron collected from the fields of war is being sent all over the world. I do not know whether that is right. Our object is to protect and develop Australian industries. I said, in the case of whisky, that as we had the raw materials and the workmen in this country, it did not require any further evidence to induce me to vote for the duty, and my attitude is the same on this item. {: #subdebate-19-0-s37 .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN:
Perth .- The honorable member for Adelaide **(Mr. Yates)** appears to argue on the same lines as the Tariff Board. He has an opinion, and is going to stick to it unless he hears from practical men who understand the business; but he is not prepared to listen to what practical men may say. The statement that has been put before the committee is clear, moderate, and reasonable, and it is made by practical men in the industry. They have been obliged to state their case to this committee because the Tariff Board had not their evidence before it. It has already been explained that these persons, for some reason, did not know of the meeting of the Tariff Board. If it was advertised, they did not see the advertisement. The consequence is that the recommendation of the Tariff Board was made after hearing only one side of the case. Honorable members are. surely not satisfied that that was just. It was all very well for the honorable member for Adelaide to pour out an unceasing niagara of words, and to refuse to listen to a demand that he should elucidate certain points. He spoke of imports and exports, and apparently argued that, while selling scrap iron to Japan at a reasonable price, we were importing it from Europe. Whatharm is there in that? If we can bring scrap iron from other countries for less than we can sell it for to Japan, is it not to our advantage to do so? Should we not be fools, and worse than fools, not to do it ? Is it not to the economic advantage of this country to do it? Yet the honorable member contends that we should not import scrap iron because we are exporting it. The whole question depends upon where we export it to, where we import it from, and what prices we pay andobtain for it. In this trade thedemand for scrap iron is well known, and the price has risen far above what it was in pre-war days. The price increased from £3 to £14 a ton during the war. The Australian requirementsbeing known, is it likely that men would send scrap ironout of the country fora price lower than they could obtain here, or for any buta greater price? The honorable member for Adelaide has taken an utterly absurd and one-sided view. He seems to think that scrap iron is used to facilitate meltinginthe cupola. That is not so. It is used to produce the correct and proper quality of metal in the final casting. He spoke of adding aluminium to pig iron for making water pipes. The idea is absurd. When engineers and responsible men who are carrying out public works specify the mixing of scrap iron with pig iron, they are acting in accordance with the best experience, and with a knowledge of the subject which, I venture to say, is even greater than thatof the honorable member for Adelaide. {: #subdebate-19-0-s38 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I am afraid that some honorable members, in their anxiety to concentrate manufactures in the easternStates, overlook the fact that they are destroying manufactures elsewhere. It is well known to the most uninformed person that the making of pig iron is one of the most elementary and primary processes in the manufacture of iron. It is just the extraction of the iron from the ore. The names of the manufacturers who have protested against this duty are household words all over Australia. They are - {: type="A" start="C"} 0. Monteith and Sons, J. Nixonand Son, Mephan FergusonProprietary Limited, John Danks and Son Proprietary Limited, P. Laughtonand Son, and J. andT. Muir. These men are of high repute in their businesses,and they have circulated a statement which has been in the hands of honorable members quite longenough for opposing interests, if they could do so, to refute it. Nothing of the kind has been attempted. These men have said - >Cast-iron scrap is an absolutely essential raw material commodity used in all iron foundries, and supplies of this material in anything like sufficient quantities for foundry purposes are absolutely unobtainable. That is a definite statement regarding the technicalrequirements of the trade. While I accept the opinion of the honorable member for Hindmarsh **(Mr. Makin)** on many things connected with iron work, I maintain that about the foundry business these men have made astatement that cannot be challenged. We have to determine whether it is better to manufacture pig iron, which the savages of Central Africa did hundreds of years ago by most primitive means, or to save industries which manufacture pipes and similar things for local use. It would seem thatoneof the two must be sacrificed. The Governments of Western Australia and some of the other States, have got into hot water for buying from abroad pipes that could be manufactured in Australia, But why were they not manufactured in Australia? It wasbecause of the high cost of obtaining the raw materials. Monteath's, at Subiaco, and MephanFerguson's, at Maylands, both suburbs of Perth, have had to shut down from time to time because they were unable to meetcompetition from abroad. They stated that their difficulty was that they could not obtain cheap raw material. Their position, however, was better then than it will be under this tariff. Certain representations have been made to the Minister by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company. I admit that that company, in establishing the iron industry at Newcastle, with its many ramifications, has done something that Australians must be proud of. But we have tobalance the value of manufacturing a few hundred tons of pig iron against the value of manufacturing pipes and similar articles. If this duty is collected, the pipe-making industry will be extinguished. Even from the point of view of the Minister for Trade and Customs, a duty that destroys an industry is economically unsound. One honorable member said, with a wave of the hind that the figures quoted to the Tariff Board satisfied aim that the industry needed protection. He quoted the figures submitted to the Tariff Board by the Broken Hill Company. On page 2 of the- circular sent to honorable members it is stated that in the year 1918-1919 only £1,464 worth of .scrap iron was imported, and that in 1323-1924 £82,000 worth was imported. That statement, on the face of it, must .have impressed the Tariff Board. I regret that the board nas been so busy that it has not been able to go further into this matter. The circular also states - >It is u .striking *tack* that *She* importations of scrap io 1923-24 were only very slightly more than .they were in 1906. The figures -quoted before the Tariff Board applied to the period when it was impossible to obtain scrap iron from Great Britain. The importations increased as scrap iron, which was no longer necessary for war purposes, was released in that Country. The figures were calculated to make the Tariff Board believe, and the Tariff Board's report was issued to make honorable members believe, that we were importing an enormous amount of scrap iron in increasing quantities, and that it was therefore necessary to impose the duty. The increased amount imported in 1'923-1924, as compared with that imported in 190G, was negligible. In those circumstances there is no necessity that a "very prosperous company should be "benefited by placing an impost on other industries of greater importance than the manufacture of pig iron. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- There is no "live and let live" about it. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- That is so, and- that is why I ask the thoroughgoing protectionists in this committee., who are anxious to establish highly specialised industries, tatter t&an those that employ primitive methods, to take the figures to heart. The people who supplied this document did *so* with a *-view to* pitting the position as they find it. We know from oar own experience that their industry has been a struggling one. Imports, from Germany particularly, before the -war swept the local manufacturer off his feet, yet to-day the Government proposes to place the industry in a still worse position, and protectionists in this chamber are prepared to assist the Minister for Trade and Customs to do that, on faked evidence. A duty on strap iron will affect another very important industry, and that is the copper mining industry. On this subject I have received a letter from the manager of the Pilbarra Copper Fields Limited, a company which is carrying on its -operations at Whim Creek, away in the north-west of Australia. In ordinary circumstances the difficulties of making copper mining pay in such a remote district, far removed from the seaboard and other portions of Australia, where wages and stores are necessarily high, and where it is difficult to obtain supplies because of -costly transport, are bad enough, without the imposition of a -duty on the raw material that is essential for the extraction of copper. This item is a two-edged sword. It will -seriously affect certain industries we are trying to establish in a small way in Western Australia, and it will destroy this copper mining industry in the north west of that State. The letter to which I have referred, dated the 18th December, 1925.' I sent on to the Minister for Trade and Customs, and received the departmental reply, Communication forwarded with your letter is returned Herewith. The representations made in connexion *with* the matte- will receive due consideration/' The due consideration they nave received is the tariff before us this afternoon. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- What is the date of the departmental letter? {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The date is the 5th January last. I can quite -understand the Minister overlooking the matter. Se might be excused for doing so, because the passing of a tariff involves a tremendous amount of work, and the honorable gentleman lias my sympathy in the task he has in hand. In his .letter ibo me, **Mr. Sleeman,** the manager of the Pilbarra company, says - >The future programme of this mine is not certain. As. the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory)** could tell the committee, the mine has been struggling for the last twenty years, and this duty on scrap iron is likely to prove the last straw on the camel's back - >It is, however, probable that it will try to find its salvation through a certain form of heap-leaching that I have evolved here. An essential - indeed, the biggest - factor in the treatment is iron. The copper is precipitated on iron, and it consumes about li tons of iron to precipitate 1 ton of copper. The cost of iron, therefore, becomes a leading consideration, and on it will perhaps depend whether we can achieve our end or not. > >The iron may be used in three forms - (1) Scrap. If we wanted only a small quantity, our best would be tin scrap - from canning works, old tins of all sorts, &c. We used this in 1920, when we used under a ton a day. It does not seem that we can possibly secure enough of this without going too far afield, i.e., without it being too dear. Heavier scrap is too dear as to transport; its shape is against it, i.e., making bad handling and big measurements (freight). (2) Sponge iron. This would be made wherever offered the lowest cost as delivered on the mine. But the position *re* making it is not perfect. It will be seen that these people are trying to make, sponge iron on the mine, and that shows how enterprising they are. The letter continues - >Where cheap' fuel and ironstone occur close together it will be all right. On this mine the cost may be too high; and the making is a specialty. (3) Pig iron. We may therefore be forced back on this. It is commonly used - Rio Tinto, some United States of America mines, &c. But it would be impracticable to use Australian (Newcastle) pig. The cost would be far too high. It could be imported at a cost that would probably be workable if duty were exempted. It is about 70s. to 80s. a ton in Britain now, and probably very low freight could be obtained for it. Even then the cost here would be high, but not so high as to prohibit the business. > >The question is : If we have to fall back on pig, could we get it in duty free? There would be no possibility of it being put to any other use than that described, there being no other use for it for a radius of hundreds of miles..... Could you advise me provisionally as to whether, in such circumstances, we would be able to secure exemption from duty. If I have hot given enough information above, I shall be happy to supply more. I quote that letter to show that whilst a duty is being imposed on scrap iron, Australian industries dependent upon its use are likely to go to the wall unless they are given a fair deal. In the circumstances I trust that the Minister will defer the item. Sufficient evidence has been brought forward this afternoon to show that there is no danger of increasing the importations. I- trust that the Minister will listen to the representations made to him. *Ifr. A.* Green. {: #subdebate-19-0-s39 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP , - I do not profess to know anything at all about pig iron, but I remind honorable members who have opposed this duty that during the war the industries for which they have spoken were deprived of scrap iron; and, .notwithstanding that, they carried on their business as moulders and supplied all the wants of the Commonwealth. I understand that **Mr. Hoskins,** who has a large foundry, in which he employs a great many moulders and turns out a great quantity of work, uses pig iron. That castings can be manufactured direct from pig iron has been demonstrated by **Mr. Hoskins,** who has one of the biggest foundries in New South Wales, from which he turns out hundreds of thousands of tons of castings. If an honorable member were an employer, and had put money into the Broken Hill company, as numbers of the general public have done, he would not expect the Government to allow scrap iron to be imported duty free to compete against the article manufactured by the company in which he was interested. It would not be fair to the people who put their money into this business to allow scrap iron to be imported duty free to compete with the manufacture of pig iron. The industries referred to by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green)** and others were carried on without scrap iron during the war period, a time when there was a greater demand on the resources of this country. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- Not a greater demand. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Yes, because nothing could then be obtained from overseas. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKiNS: -During that time the Newcastle company sent steel rails overseas. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That is so. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- What about public works during the war period ? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Public works were carried on during the war period. No company treated Australia better than did the Broken Hill Company during that period. It stand in the breach, supplied all the Commonwealth requirements, and assisted the. Empire by sending steel rails to the Old Country. Now we are asked to do away with the duty on scrap iron and allow ships from all parts of the world to bring scrap iron as ballast to Australia, where it will be used in competition against the products of the great industries that have been established here. I congratulate the Government and the Minister for Trade and Customs upon the appearance of this item in the schedule. {: #subdebate-19-0-s40 .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling .- As this item concerns very closely the basis of the iron and steel industries, I also am in agreement with the Government in its endeavour to place those industries on a solid footing, by allowing them to provide our own raw materials. We have, throughout Australia, great deposits of iron ore as good as any to be found elsewhere. We have deposits of several kinds of iron ore, which, when brought together, produce iron and steel 'of the necessary texture required for castings. I cannot understand representatives of Western Australia decrying one of the greatest iron deposits we have, up at Yampie Sound. There are two deposits there, one owned by the Queensland Government, and the other by a Western Australian company, which, for many years, has been endeavouring to secure the capital to exploit it. For Western Australian representatives to tolerate the free importation of scrap iron, which would prevent the starting, let alone the nourishing, of that great industry, is something I cannot understand. If scrap iron is imported free, there will be no development at Yampie Sound. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Every ton of scrap iron imported displaces a ton of Australian material. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY: -- That is so, and it displaces, also, the labour involved in the production of the Australian material. If we desire to put the iron and steel industries of this country on a sound basis, we - must start from the bottom and not from half-way up. We must develop the base of those industries, which is iron. We have the iron ore, and the necessary machinery for its manufacture into iron. All that we need is protection to enable our iron and steel industries to be soundly established. The# iron and steel industries are the basis of a nation's industrial development, and no nation which has not advanced them to a very high standard can become truly great. They are also essential to national defence, and for our selfpreservation we are compelled to foster them. {: #subdebate-19-0-s41 .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN:
Reid .- Although an ardent protectionist, I confess that the representatives of Western Australia, particularly the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green),** have made out a case which calls for an answer from the Minister. I would like him to explain to what extent the production of pig iron to replace the scrap iron now used will promote the development of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company. Of course, I realize that the arguments advanced by the Western Australian representatives in opposition to this duty will be equally applicable to any other protective duty in the schedule. I sympathize with the State on account of its economic disadvantages, which this Parliament has recognized by the payment of a subsidy. However, on this item I have an open mind. The iron and steel industries are of fundamental importance to the defence of Australia, and my vote will be determined by the information given by the Minister as to whether the production of pig iron, to take the place of imported scrap iron, will increase employment, or have an important bearing in other respects upon the development of the iron and steel industries. I am informed that every tariff in the world imposes a protective duty on scrap iron. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- That is correct. {: #subdebate-19-0-s42 .speaker-KZ8} ##### Mr LAMBERT:
West Sydney -- I am astonished that members of the Labour party' should desert their protectionist principles by supporting the importation of iron, of which this country has such enormous resources. The honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green)** said that some little company in Western Australia will not be able to produce copper if it is not allowed to use imported scrap iron. After it has passed through the batteries, copper ore is treated with iron and sulphuric acid in tanks, in the same way as gold in tailings is precipitated in cyanide vats.. It is not necessary to use pig iron or scrap iron for that purpose; there are enough old tins in this country to precipitate hundreds of thousands of tons of copper. I shall never vote for the free admission of any article that can be produced in Australia. No vote of mine will be cast to rob Australian workers of their livelihood. To the limit of our capacity we should manufacture everything we require, and protect ourselves against the cheap products of Japan and other countries. {: #subdebate-19-0-s43 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT .. - I am surprised that there should be- any opposition to this item, which merely places imported scrap iron, which comes into competition with pig iron, on exactly the same footing as imported pig. iron. I. amalso puzzled- by the periodical outbursts of antagonism to the magnificent icon and. steel industry at Newcastle. Honorablemembers, weald' do weft to recollect that 1G,0QQ men are employed in the works at Newcastle, and statisticians tell us that every man. employed, aa full wages supports three or four other persons.. As a naturalized Australian.,. I am proud of the efficiency of those works, and optimistic regarding the farther development of a most important basie industry. It converts raw material from the soil into finished products, and but for its operations, the Australian community would be heavily penalized in regard to the prices, of iron and steel. When the 1921 tariff was before the House the iron masters, complained grievously of unfair competition through* the importation of scrap iron, and' I believe- they were promised that this material would be placed ant exactly the same footing as pig iron. The promise was not honoured. Thecommittee now has an opportunity tohonour it by imposing a duty that is reasonable and consistent with the policy of protection. The representations made by the users of scrap iron are not altogether ethical, or above suspicion'. The manufacturers are protected in respect of the goods they produce, and I have no sympathy with any man who, while enjoying reasonable protection for his own products, objects to the producers of the raw materia! he uses getting similar assistance. The Tariff Board's report upon scrap iron shows that in 1923 Australia imported 10,279 tons of cast iron chairs and 14,003 tons of cast iron scrap, or a total of 24,282 tons. In 1924 the total importations of the same material were 17,461 tons, and, for the nine months ended 31St March, 1925,. 17,243 tons, an average during the last three fears of over 20,000 tons per annum. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- The. importations, in 1911-13. were much greater. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- At that time the Newcastle works, were not producing pig iron. If manufacturers must- have a certain amount of scrap iron for their industries, they can get plenty of it in A.us- tralia. The United States of America, Canada, and Prance impose tVw same duty on. scrap iron as on pig iron, because obviously those commodities come into competition with each other. The honorable member for' Kalgoorlie said that scrap iron was required in the precipitation of copper. The process to which he refers needs, no- iron chairs and cast iron scrap, but sheet iron. Will the honorable member inform the committee how much copper is produced annually by the company to which he referred? {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I cannot. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- If it takes one ton of scrap iron to collect one ton of copper,, it is easy to see that a duty of £1 per ton on scrap iron will not necessitate any mine closing down. As the protectionproposed in this instance is reasonable, T ask the committee to support the item. **Mr. GREGORY** (Swan) [6.11.- I move - >That the item be amended by adding the following: - "And on and after 25th March, 192ff, free." I submit this amendment after due deliberation, and after hearing the. speech of the Minister **(Mr.** Pratten) and that of the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins),** who supports very high duties, except when he considers that they are to the detriment of certain of his 'Constituents. If honorable members will refer to the speeches of the honorable member for Newcastle on- previous occasions they will find that he has supported the- importation, free of duty, of explosives made by coloured labour, and of coal-cutting- machines, which may come from Germany. When, however, it is a case of protecting those conducting foundries, and an effort is being made by certain honorable members on this side of the chamber to- give them some, assistance, he comes forward a-s the representative of wealthy companies, whose agents are within this building. It is shameful that a big- company, such as the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, which laid its case before the Tariff Board, should ask for this protection. The imports of scrap iron ra I91-8-19- totalled: 37*, in 1919-201, 960, and in 1922-3, 24,282 tons. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- What combine. is the honorable member representing.? {: #subdebate-19-0-s44 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have previously stated that the firms interested in the proposed duty are Monteath and Sons,. Nixon and Sons Mephan Fergusson and Company Proprietary Limited, John Danks and Company Proprietary Limited, T. Laughton and Company, and J. and T. Muir. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- Are not those firms principally engaged- in the manufacture of brass castings? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No. These firms have gone to considerable trouble tomake special representations to the Minister, and have pointed out how the imposition of these duties will affect tha industry in which they are engaged. They state, that it needs scrap iron and pig; ironin order to carry out their foundry work. The Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited can supply a casting material by making a double smelted pig iron at a higher cost, but if additional expense is to be incurred in the manufactureof articles in which iron is extensively used, the industries will be injured and numerous artisans, will be thrown out or employment. Here is a big company making millions in profits.. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- How many dividends has it declared? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- How much money hasbeen put into its works out of profits ? The Minister should consider thesmall amount of capital put into the company when it was originally established. We know that it borrowed large sums ondebentures which it is gradually paying off. I have not the latest balance-sheet before me, but there is not the slightest doubt that its assets, which are of enormous value, have been provided largely out of profits. Intime the Broken Hill Proprietary Company's works will be the largest in Australia. {: .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr Jackson: -- We hope so. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I, too, hope that that will be the case. I only wish to make it clear that this is not only a matter of great importance to Western Australia, but also one of ordinary commercial interest. I am desirous that certain manufacturers shall be able to cairy om their operations by obtaining anarticle which is not available in. sufficient quantities in this country at a reasonable price. The substitute offered can only be obtained at an increased cost. {: #subdebate-19-0-s45 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .The usual methods adopted by the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory).** who has endeavoured to taunt me concerning my fiscal principles, necessitate a reply from me. The honorable member referred to the fact that as a protectionist I have favoured thefree importation of explosives manufactured by coloured labour and coal-cutting machines which he deliberately stated came from Germany. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Which may come from Germany. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Machines used in the Newcastle mines are not obtained from German manufacturers, and the only explosives employed in the coalmining industry are those which appear on the British: list of explosives permitted in coalmining. The firm of Hoskins and Company desire this slight protection, as the Minister pointed out, in order to place scrap iron on the same basis as pig iron. We have heard a good deal to-day how manuf acturers are being hampered by having, to use pig. iron in making certain articles, but the proposed duty will not interfere with their operations in the slightest degree. Many of the firms which the honorable member for Swan has mentioned are brassfounders, and not caat-iron pipe makers. Hoskins and Company, of Sydney, manufacture pipe from Australian scrap iron mixed with their own pig iron the proportion of scrap to pig iron being varied according to the article being produced. Our Western Australian friends, who are doing all in their power to destroy this important industry in New South Wales, have not been fair enough to inform the committee that the manufacture of wire and farming implements is shortly to be undertaken in the western State. I trust this is the last we shall hear from those honorable members in thecorner who wish to damage every Australian industry. Amendment negatived. Item agreed to. Item 144 (Zinc shavings) agreed to. Item 145 (Iron and steel, plate and sheet): agreed to. Item 152 (Pipes and Tubing). {: #subdebate-19-0-s46 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan .- Can the Minister **(Mr. Pratten)** give any reason for this extraordinary increase in dutyon pipe fittings?The increased duties on fittings imposed under the 1921 tariff, which enormously increased the cost of pipes manufactured in Australia, were thought to be ample. Under this item it is proposed to increase the duty on fittings not more than 2 inches in diameter by7½ per cent. The increases made in 1921, assuming the importations to have been the same as in 1923, repre sented an extra expense of £780,000 a year. That is a most extraordinary increase, and I think the Minister should give some reason for its adoption before asking the committe to agree to it. Item agreed to. Item 155 - {: #subdebate-19-0-s47 .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 .- Does the Minister for Trade and Customs intend to propose a corresponding increase in the duty on theraw materials from which rolled iron or steel beams, channels, joists, girders, columns, trough and bridge iron and steel are made? It seems to me that, if we increase the duty on the engineering side, we should also increase it on the base metal side. Can the Minister inform me whether any application has Been made to the Tariff Board for an increase in the duty on this raw material? {: #subdebate-19-0-s48 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT .- The degree of protection set out in the schedule was recommended by the Tariff Board. Under the old tariff, there was no differentiation between beams, channels, joists. girders, columns, &c, not drilled or further manufactured, and those that were drilled and further manufactured; consequently quite a lot of them were coming in drilled with holes, planed, levelled, and fabricated generally. It has been decided, therefore, that on these there shall be, in addition to the ordinary duty, an ad valorem of 25 per cent., 30 per cent., and 35 per cent. The object of this is to ensure that the work necessary on these items shall be done in Australia. So far as I know, no application has been made to the Tariff Board for an increase in the duty on the raw material from which they are manufactured. Item agreed to. Item 160 - {: #subdebate-19-0-s49 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP .- Can the Minister for Trade and Customs explain why cream separators are not manufactured in Australia? It seems to me that we should be able to make them here. {: #subdebate-19-0-s50 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- I should imagine that the first reason for their non-manufacture in Australia is that tin plates are not made here. The Danes and Swedes have specialized in making separators. Although there is a preference of 10 per cent. in favour of British separators, Great Britain does not do 10 per cent. of Australia's £250,000 worth of business annually in the line. The policy of the Government in these matters is not to put a duty on articles which are not manufactured here, and where there seems to be no prospect of manufacturing; so that the people may get their requirements at the most reasonable price possible. {: #subdebate-19-0-s51 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- From the explanation that the Minister has given, it will be seen that he is anxious to assist the primary producers to the greatest possible extent; and, as honorable members of the Labour party are actuated by the same desire, we shall support this proposal. I trust that honorable members of the Country party will regard this as being creditable to us, and that they will act generously when the opportunity presents itself for them to help our secondary indus tries {: #subdebate-19-0-s52 .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling .- It seems to me that there should be an addition to sub-item b (2). As it is drafted it will permit the free entry of certain parts of the overhead gear of sheep-shearing machines that are manufactured in Australia, namely, the tubing which conveys the power from the drive wheel to the hand-pieces. We do not manufacture hand-pieces here, but we have made other parts of sheep-shearing machines for the last twenty years. Under this tariff overhead gear and grinders will be subject to a duty of 10 per cent. under the general tariff, and 5 per cent. under the intermediate tariff, but no mention whatever is made of the tubing required to transmit the power to the hand pieces. Not one, but several sheep shearing companies began to, manufacture, during the war, the whole of their overhead gear, tubing and grinders; but they will be unable to continue to make it without protection. Can the Minister say whether a provision to protect power transmission gear was inadvertently omitted from the schedule? {: #subdebate-19-0-s53 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT .- The position in regard to the manufacture of sheep-shearing machines is quite clear. It is proposed that hand pieces, which are not manufactured in Australia, shall be treated as they have been for the last four or five years. In order to put the position beyond question, and to prevent any controversy, as to the meaning of the item I move - >That the following be added to Item 160 b (2):- "and on and after the 25th March, 1926, hand pieces, *ad. val.,* British, free: intermediate, 5 per cent.; general, 10 per cent. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. *Sitting suspended from 6.29 to 8 p.m.* Item 170- {: #subdebate-19-0-s54 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I should like to know the reason for this machinery being admitted free. We have been told that Australians can make any class of machinery, yet thousands of machines for use in the coal mines of this country are to be admitted free. Machinery for developing other mines is taxed because it can be made in Australia. Is there anything in connexion with coal-mining machinery which justifies this special treatment? Most of the coal-mining companies in Australia are wealthy concerns. **Mr. John** Brown, of Newcastle, is a millionaire. Coalmining machinery should be placed on the same footing as machinery used in other mines. {: #subdebate-19-0-s55 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- I entirely sympathize with the altruistic ideals of the honorable member for South Sydney **(Mr. E. Riley).** In the last tariff, coalcutting machines, which are not made in Australia, were subjected to the following duties, namely, British, free; intermediate, 5 per cent.; general, 10 per cent. The value of the coal-cutting machines imported into Australia in the last year of importation was £15,209. That is approximately the average value of the importations for the four or five years previously. Of that amount, machines imported from Great Britain represented only £222. In accordance with the policy of the Government that, where -a duty is unnecessary, and revenue acquirements permit, no duty should be imposed, .a -free schedule has been adopted in this instance. **Mr. JACKSON** (Bass) (6,5]. - The Minister has admitted that at least some of these machines come from Great Britain. Hitherto that country has enjoyed a preference of 10 per cent.; it is now proposed to deny it that preference. The ^amount of revenue involved is not great; but I consider that the manufacturers of Great Britain -should he given preference over those of other countries. {: #subdebate-19-0-s56 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan .- I cannot understand why this item has been made Tree. The Minister has said that as these machines are not made here they are to be admitted free in accordance with the usual policy of the Government, irrespective of the country of origin. That that is not the policy of the Government honorable members will see in connexion with item 174 - machines, machine tools, and appliances. Under that -item the Minister has power to permit goods not made in Australia .to come in free if manufactured in Great Britain, and subject to a duty of 10 per cent, if made in foreign countries. The coal-miners are probably the best-paid workers in Australia, and it is well known that the mine-owners make substantial profits every year, and are .among .the wealthiest section of the community. Yet the Minister is prepared to allow thousands -of machines required in the coalmining industry to enter free of -duty, whereas other mining machinery is sub ject to heavy -duties. Previously, the duty was intermediate 5 per cent., and general 10 per Bent. Owing to the high -cost of machinery, coupled with high wages, the gold-mining industry is declining. The copper industry, also, is waning for the same reasons. The Mount Morgan mine has been closed. Although it is known that there are big copper deposits in Queensland, Western Australia., and the Northern Territory, any machinery required to develop those deposits is subject to a duty of 55 per cent, should it come from foreign countries. Yet coalcutting machines, no matter where they are made, are to come in free. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- The honorable member should he fair. This item .represents a small proportion only of the machinery used in the coal mines; other machinery bears heavy -duties. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I propose to move - >That the following words be added- - " and on and after the '25th March, 1926, ad valorem, British, free.; intermediate, 5 per cent.; general, 10 per cent." **Mr.** PRATTEN (Martin- Minister for Trade and Customs) ;[.8.10J..- There seems to be .a fairly general feeling that there is no necessity for this item, and that it should remain as it was previously. T therefore propose to negative the item. That will leave the matter where it was before the introduction of this schedule. Item negatived. Item 174- {: #subdebate-19-0-s57 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- I move - >Thatthe item bepostponed. Representations havebeen made to the Government inconnexion with this item, but a decision has not yet been arrived at. We all want it to be clearly defined and asgenerous as possible. At present,great difficulty is experienced in administering this item. I -assure the committee that the purpose of the postponement is to improve, if possible, the verbiage, and to make the position perfectly clear. Mr.GREGORY (Swan) [3.13].- When this item wasfirst introduced four years ago, I strongly opposed it on theground that Parliament alonehad the right to increaseor to reduce taxation.I realize that in administering it the Minister roust sometimes find himself in a difficult situation. Requests come from all parts of Australia forcertain machinery to be admitted free if made in Great Britain, and that for foreign machinery the duty should be not more than 10per cent. Canthe Minister inform us whether, in. the light of his experience, he approvesof theitem? The first tariff provided thatthe Minister hadto report to Parliament, giving a list of the machines which had been imported,and which, if not on the free list, should, in his opinion, havebeen admitted free. If Parliament endorsed his recommendation, a refund of duty was made to those who had paid it. In view of the administrativedifficulties, it is doubtful whether this item shouldbe included in thetariff. Only the Minister can say whether the old system or the one that has been in operationduring more recent years is the betterone. Iappreciate his difficulties in dealing with these matters. Some extraordinary decisionshavebeen given. On one occasion a Minister ruled that tram rails were appliances of a machine, and allowed them in duty free. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr Lazzarini: -- That should have suited the honorable member; he wants everything free of duty. {: #subdebate-19-0-s58 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I wantthe decision of Parliament to be respected. My objection is that sometimes it is subverted by special powers being given to a Minister whose decisions may not bear scrutiny. Ishouldlike to know if the Minister thinks that the item oughtto remain in the tariff schedule, or whether it should be dispensed with altogether. {: #subdebate-19-0-s59 .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN:
Reid .- I hope that when the Minister brings -the item beforethecommittee again he willbe in a position to give honorable members information as to its administration. Certainstatements brought under my notice bya section of electrical manufacturers suggest that, in the past, very many remissions in duty have been allowed under this item, particularly in respect of the heaviertypes of machines. I have no wish todiscuss theitem at this stage. I merely wish to direct the attentionof the Minister to the allegations that have been made. I have faith in the integrity ofthe Minister, and believe he willgive effecttothe protectionist policy of theGovernment. I hope he will be in aposition to remove doubts in the minds of certain manufacturers who are interested in theschedule. {: #subdebate-19-0-s60 .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr JACKSON:
Bass . -When this item is under consideration I intend to move - 3. (a) " That any applications made . to the Minister -for admission of machines andmachinery under item 174-B.P.,Tree; G.T., 10 per cent.; or (2) : of materialsandminor articles foruse in the manufacture ofgoods within the Commonwealth, item 404 - B.P., free:; G.T., 10per cent.,shallbe publishedin theCommonwealthGazette. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. That such applications shall state - (li) The description of class of goods; (2) the . purpose for which they may be intended;(3) the country of origin; (4) the name of applicant firm or company, or directly interested applicant or ultimate owner. 1. That any objections against the applications be lodged in each or any of the capital cities . of the Commonwealth within fourteen days of tfie issue of the *Gazette* inthe capital city in which the objection is lodged." Perhaps the Minister will embody this suggestedamendment inhis proposals. It is only fair that the people of Australia should know what is being done. {: #subdebate-19-0-s61 .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · NAT .- The Minister, when redraftingthis item, should give special attention to thedifficulties experienced under it in the 1921 schedule. Ithink Iam right in saying that when an item such as this, dealing with machines, machine tools, and appliances, is passed, honorable members have not a very clear understanding of its technical difficulties. We all have a gemeralconception of machines and machinery. I suppose that the average person will include many varieties of electrical machinery in his definition of an electrical machine. In one case an electric transformer was dutiable, whilst an electric alternator was allowed in duty free. The ordinary man in the street would include both in his definition of an electrical machine, and would be puzzled if any distinction were made between them. The Customs authorities informed me that they had consulted the Crown Law Department, which, no doubt, referred the matter to a technologist in order to get a technical definition of a machine. To be perfectly safe, they say that a machine must have moving parts. An electric transformer has moving parts, whilst an alternator is stationary, but, like a transformer, it transfers electrical energy, and is essentially a machine. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- It would come in as an appliance under that definition. {: #subdebate-19-0-s62 .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- No; the rulings given, as the result of consultation with the Crown Law Department, have entirely altered the interpretation. An alternator is not regarded as a machine, and, therefore, it is not dutiable, whereas a transformer, being classed as a machine, has to pay a high duty. This fine distinction, although it may be technically correct, savours a little of pedantry. It is desirable that we should aim at uniformity. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- I entirely agree with the honorable member. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- I am glad that the Minister is in agreement with me. I understand that the question which I have raised will be dealt with when the new item is again before the committee. I suggest, therefore, that the position should be more clearly defined, and that the Minister should take a broader view. It is unfair that the department should be bound down by a legal decision. I admit that the position of the Minister is somewhat difficult. Necessarily he has to refer to some authority; but, in thiscase,as I have shown, the scientific definition of the machine is something which Parliament did not take into consideration at the time. {: #subdebate-19-0-s63 .speaker-KXR} ##### Mr PARSONS:
Angas .- A few weeks ago I addressed an inquiry to the Minister, at the request of Messrs G. Gramp and Sons, of Rowlands Flat, South Australia, with reference to a remission in the duty on a machine known as Coffey's still. I now remind the Minister of the request, in the hope that he will give it further consideration before the item is dealt with. The Minister suggested that I should bring the matter up when the Tariff was being discussed. Motion agreed to; item postponed. Item 175 (Apparatus for liquefaction of gases), agreed to. Item 176- {: #subdebate-19-0-s64 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan .-I move - >That the item be amended by adding the following to sub-item d " and on and after 25th > >March, 1926, ad val. British, 27½ per cent., intermediate 35 per cent., general 40 per cent." This sub-item refers to road-making, stone-crushing, and other heavy machines. The natural protection afforded on such machines must be extraordinarily heavy, and should be sufficient. The proposed additional duty will be to the disadvantage of distant States like Queensland and Western Australia. We read of magnificent roads in the United States of America. We are spending enormous sums of money for the building of roads throughout the Commonwealth, and these machines are essential for 'that class of work. {: #subdebate-19-0-s65 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have some knowledge of the manufacture of cement. I have participated in several inquiries into that industry. If there are any manufacturers in this country who can afford to pay for Australian machinery, they are the manufacturers of cement. Why should not these wealthy manufacturers pay for Australian machinery? The industry is in a very flourishing condition. {: #subdebate-19-0-s66 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .- I support the amendment. The honorable member for . South Sydney **(Mr. E. Riley)** gave some information that is interesting to one who knows differently. A recent royal, commission, of which I was a member, took evidence in Queensland, and was told that the cement works there could, without any additional duty, compete with foreign manufacturers within a certain radius of Brisbane, but that to do so at distances along the coast a further duty was necessary. They appealed to the then Minister for Trade and Customs, and obtained an increase of duty. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- This item does not relate to 'the duty on cement, but to the duty on cement-making machinery. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- The honorable member said that the cement manufacturers were making fortunes rapidly. ' If that is so, the Minister should take some of the existing duty off cement. The honorable member cannot have the argument both ways. Australian cement manufacturers are trying to compete with foreign cement manufacturers, but the Government is hobbling them by taxing their machinery. Honorable members seem to be concerned about roads. I agree that they are as important as railways, particularly in the large States. This Government has accepted some of the responsibility for road, making, and has advanced money to the States for that purpose. It never should have obtained that money, but it is receiving so much revenue through the Customs that it does not know what , to do with it, and members and supporters of the Government are making themselves good fellows by handing it out. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The Government gave a lot of if to Western Australia. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- That may be so, but it is the taxpayers' money, nevertheless. Roads must be made, and yet we tax road-making machinery. It is Gilbertian. We should regard roads as more important than road-making machinery. It is difficult for some of the roads boards to obtain machines, and they do not want to hand large sums of money to the Treasurer for the privilege of importing them. I feelingly support the amendment. I should be willing to vote for the complete removal of the duty. {: #subdebate-19-0-s67 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
North Sydney -- I do not understand why the duty has been raised on these items. It is not often that I find myself in agreement with the honorable member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse),** and that circumstance is so striking that it ought to convince the Minister that he is in the wrong. Certainly this country wants good roads, more, almost, than it wants anything else. It seems to me that 27£ per cent, is a reasonable protection in the circumstances. I have recently travelled over Australian roads that are simply indescribably bad. No words that I can use would express my feelings about them: and if I have to couple with the names of the responsible shire councillors the name of the Minister, my mouth will be very full. The duty on cement-making machines, road-making machines, and stone-crushing machines should remain as it was.' {: #subdebate-19-0-s68 .speaker-KQW} ##### Mr SEABROOK:
Franklin .- I support the amendment on the ground that increasing the duties will hamper development in Australia. Some time ago I approached the Government to try to obtain a remission of duty on a cementmaking plant that was being purchased by a firm starting operations in Tasmania. That company invested a large amount of money and tried to purchase the machinery in Australia. It then went to America, where it obtained quotations, but the Americans would not give a gjiaoranteer that the machines -would stand up to the work.. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- Is; the honorable' member speaking of Maria Island? {: .speaker-KQW} ##### Mr SEABROOK: -- Yes, The company then went to England, and a ffom from Denmark -was. apparently the- only firm in- the world that would guarantee its machines Australian firm's said they could make the machinery if the company would supply the plans and specifications... That was a. most, extraordinary demaind. The company made arrangements to purchase- the machinery from the firm in England, which sent out an expert to erect it., at a cost of £100,000. The duty that the company had: to. pay was nearly- £30,000. It is a serious- hindrance to- development to charge- £30,000 duty on machinery that can-not be made m Australia. Cranent-making machinery *is* wanted in this country for roads, buildings, and many other purposes. I should not. object to- the- duty if the machinery could be made in Australia; but when, it cannot, the duty should be as light as possible.. {: #subdebate-19-0-s69 .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN:
Perth .- Oneof the difficulties- about this item is that it refers, to> many aa?ti©les which have no relation to one another. I do not know whether theCrown Law. Department has given the Minister a definition of" Aerial ropeways exclusive of cable." That is a curious thing, and -why it should, be in the same category as road-making machinery is hard to understand. The duty should not be increased on cementmaking,, road-making, and stone-crushing machines, for the very good reason -that no grounds ha.ve been given, by the Minister for the increase. Is a large number of these machines being imported ?. Is any Australian industry being injured? I understand that the facts are quite the reverse. In Queensland, Australianmade machines have been in use for years-; in fact, the cement-maifcers there never user anything- else. Speaking generally, I. should: say that road-making machines, such as road rollers, could not profitably be imported, in view of the heavy freight and duty.' . 1 cannot understand why the- duty should have been raised unless- it was that the Minister saw air item that had not been, raised, and jradsed it. Nothing is of more importance to. this country than the improvement of transportation. "We are trying to improve it, but under this item we put an. obstacle to. the way of the- first step; towards: making good roads. I- am strongly in- favour of- the amendment,, which L hope the Minister will; accept. Mr.COOK (Indi) [8.42].- I hope the Minister will: agree to- revert to the- old duty. I agree- with previous speakers that good roads are- essentia? to the development of thisi country ; and I am *mclined* to believe that in some pl'aees; at any rate, they arei more important than railways. After providing money for road construction, it seems strange that the Government shtjiitld place- this, obstaicle in- the- way of the making o£ roads: Anything we can do to cheapen cement should be done-,, as. it will have a very desirable effect in cheapening the cost of houses. {: #subdebate-19-0-s70 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- I. wisk to say a word or two in support of the schedule as: it stands. Tha honorable member for- Swam **(Mr. Gregory)** talked of 'Commonwealth; grants for roads,, and the beautiful roads which are to be found in the United S*ates of America. He forgot te tell the- committee that the beautiful' roads in America were made with American-made machines. It was the- manufacture of those machines thart was; accountable for the population *oi* the United States of America, that ire it's- turn enabled the country to be' provided with good roads. I view this duty from a different standpoint from that, from which it is viewed' by some other honorable members. I support the engineering industries of this couirtL-y. I know that the whole of the machinery included in this item ' can be, and is mad© in Australia. The purpose Oifi the duty is to prevent unpatriotic municipal councils and other representative bodies placing their orders for this machinery outside Australia when they could obtain what they require- -within their- own boundaries, The fault I have to- find with- the tariff schedule is- that the duties begin- at the- wrong end. They should begin at the bottom and rise proportionately. This duty is intended, to compel unpatriotic, representative institutions to- be Australian in. sentiment, and to patronize Australian- industries. I shall give it my support. {: #subdebate-19-0-s71 .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The first machinery referred to in this group ia cement-making machinery. In my opinion, the cement manufacturing industry of Australia is sufficiently protected and in a position to be asked to stand up to its share -of fee protection necessary for the machinery with which it makes its prod.nct. The cement manufacturing companies are amongst the most prolific dividend payers we have. 'One of the drawbacks to the industry referred to hy the honorable member lor Forrest **.(Mr.. Prowse)** is geographical. It is remarkable when one goes round the coast-line of the Commonwealth to find that .the same industry flourishes in one part .and languishes in another. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- That is due to the Navigation Act. **Mr. -RODGERS.** - That may have something to do with it. I had an opportunity of examining <the cement-making industry in Queensland, to which, the honorable member referred. It was in a bad way, hut that was due to its geographical position In Victoria we have some of the *most* prosperous .cement manufacturing concerns in the Commonwealth. They are well protected, enjoy a wonderful market, and should be asked to stand up to their share of the protection necessary ¥©r the manufacture of the tools and machinery they require. I am confronted in the same group with another item, which it is imposing a -very great strain on me to ask me .to .support. It is asking me to go very far ito agree to the duty on road-making machines. The improvement df means of transport is of such .paramount importance to the Commonwealth that the Government has pledged its revenue for ten years to the extent of £2^,000,000 a year for the making of roads. That is a munificent contribution to an obligation of the -Statu Governments. At this stage I -do *not* criticize lhat aspect -of the matter, bUt -of what use is it to give with .one hand and take back with the other ? I cannot at present see my way to join with the Government in making a bold ibid for good Toads in Australia saud .at the same time impose am increased -duty -on the machinery necessary for the construction of good roads. **Mr. FOSTER** (Wakefield) £8:52].- I would do almost anything to agree with the honorable member for Wannon **(Mr. Rodgers),** but I am surprised that fee should discourage the making of roads by &e most efficient methods. The Government, in making a grant of £2,000,000 a year for the construction of roads, merely 'gives back to the people -money which it has taken out of their pockets through the (Customs. In doing so, however., it has made a very proper condition indeed, .and that is 'Chat the roads ame to be made by contract, and if that condition cannot he fulfilled the Government must be satisfied that *the* most uptodate methods are employed in the expenditure of the money. There is not a bit -of ^compromise in the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr.. Pratten).** He should be "prepared in this ease to split the difference, and enable those responsible fiar rood construction im country districts to secure, if possible, moise .efficient machinery than can he obtained here. If there is any work in connexion with which we .should -employ the last expression in up-to-date machinery, it is the making of roads in country 'districts for .the cheapening of production. I appeal to 'the Minister for Tirade and Customs and the Minister for Works and Railways **(Mr. Hill)** to -see to Lt that the mousey granted hy this Parliament for road making shall be expended in .'such a way <as .to give the best possible results, amd iso lighten the -borden s -of our primary producers. The Government derives from the tariff money enough to (p'lay with and to burn. It is supposed to finance our affairs in such a way as at the -close of -the year to disclose .a alight surplus, but during the last three or four years it has shown surpluses that nave r-un into millions. It is about .time we -ceased bleeding the people, and gape the country a chance. IT am serry that I cannot .make an impression *«m* the Minister for Trade and Customs. I -should like ito get him into my -district, and take him in a car ©wai- the worst roads I could .find to <excite his sympathy with, people who have to liv« outside .the electrically-lighted areas of the big cities. {: #subdebate-19-0-s72 .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr M CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment moved by the honorable mem'ber for Swan **(Mr. Gregory).** I think that on this occasion the 'honorable member was rather modest. He might very well have asked for a reduction of the duty to 20 per cent., instead of 27½ per cent. There is to-day a special movement throughout Australia for better roads. Local authorities find great difficulty in carrying out road construction necessary for the settlement of out-back districts. They must be able to secure the best machinery possible to economize in their work. I hope that the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Pratten)** will put no obstacles in the way to prevent them doing so. {: #subdebate-19-0-s73 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have listened to members of the Country party trying to bring the necessity for the construction of good roads into the consideration of the duties which should be imposed on the machinery included in this item. I have the honour to represent a part of the City of Sydney, and I can inform the committee that when the Sydney Municipal Council called for tenders for machinery with which to make good roads, it received tenders from importers, and also from local manufacturers. The council engineer himself, an imported man, testified that the locally-made machines were the best offered. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- What has that to do with the matter? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The honorable member said that road-making machines could not be made here. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- I never said anything of the sort. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- -Members of the Country party say that we need good roads in the country districts, but we cannot get them by reducing the duty on cement-making machinery. They are not going to be made of cement. The honorable member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse)** said that I knew nothing at all about the manufacture of cement, and that he knew all about it. I had the honour of a seat on the Arbitration Court in New South Wales, and inquired into the cement-making and other industries. Because of the information I thus obtained about the profits made in the cement-making industry, I know that it is one of the most prosperous in Australia. Therefore, I object to a reduction of duties on cement-making machinery which the wealthy companies can well afford to pay. The engineering trades are experiencing a very bad time. I do not know of any skilled artisans who are suffering more at the present time than the engineers, hundreds of whom are out of employment. At the same time a great deal of machinery that could be manufactured locally is being imported. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- Quote the statistics relating to importations. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have no doubt that the Minister will do so. Australian engineers have patented a concretemixing machine which has helped substantially to reduce the cost of concrete roads and buildings. That machine is being made in Balmain, and why should not the manufacturers be protected? The Minister is doing right in encouraging the engineering trade to make all the machinery that Australia requires. The statement by the honorable member for Franklin that concrete mixers cannot be made in Australia is incorrect. I know where such machines are being made. The mechanism is simple, and the only obstacle to an increase of local production is the competition of cheap importations. I hope that the Minister will not be persuaded to compromise on this item. {: .speaker-KFA} ##### Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP -- There is already a duty of 27½ per cent. on this machinery. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The Minister has declared that that is hot sufficient to protect the local industry, and I hope that he will stand to his guns. {: #subdebate-19-0-s74 .speaker-KNP} ##### Mr MAXWELL:
Fawkner .- It is significant that most of those who favour the proposed increase are silent, whilst' those who have spoken have addressed themselves to the general question *of* protection, and not to the specific item now before the committee. In the general debate I said that whenever a good case was made out for an increase in duty I would gladly vote for it. No such case has been made out for the increase on this item, and unless the Minister does advance a justification for his proposal I shall vote for the amendment. {: #subdebate-19-0-s75 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley .- I hope the Minister will not allow himself to be led astray by the arguments of honorable members who are invariably opposed to any proposal for the advancement of Australian industry. Those who believe in encouraging Australian manufacturers will support him in defending the pro posed duties, and he is assured that if the item goes to a division, a substantial majority of the committee will vote for it. The arguments advanced against the proposed duty are directed against all new industries. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- It is not new; it has been in operation for some time. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I am glad to have that admission. I understood the honorable member for Franklin to say that the industry had not been established, and that cement-making machinery could not be made in Australia. As a matter of fact, it is being manufactured in my own electorate. The industry already employs a fair number of men, and given adequate protection the employment will be increased threefold. I am not surprised at the attitude of the members of the Country party because they resist every plea for Australian industry except where their own interests are at stake. They are very ready to vote for duties on Fiji bananas and black-grown sugar. The honorable member for Forrest is a very sound protectionist in respect of millet.. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- I have never voted for a duty on millet. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I have a lively recollection of the honorable member's vote on that article. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- On a point of order, I challenge that statement. The honorable member Tor Dalley is stating a falsehood, and thereby misrepresenting me. {: #subdebate-19-0-s76 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If the honorable member considers that the statement made by the honorable member for Dalley is personally offensive to him, he may call upon him to withdraw it; but if the honorable member is merely complaining of misrepresentation, he may make- a personal explanation later. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The Minister should not allow the passage of this schedule to be delayed and the protectionist policy to be thwarted by enemies of Australian industry. {: #subdebate-19-0-s77 .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN:
Perth .- If the Minister agrees to the proposed reduction of duties, I hope he will not separate the cement-making and road -making machines, as the honorable member for Wannon suggested. The honorable member said that" the cement industry is very successful and can well afford to pay extra duties on the machinery it re quires. If the companies are making so much money, the best thing we can do is to encourage competition. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Two years ago dumping duties were imposed on cement because the companies pleaded hardship. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- They are too well protected, and I would like to see the duties on cement reduced; but, if that is not done, the lowering of duties on cementmaking machinery will encourage competition and so help to reduce the price to the consumer. The duty will press heavily, not oh the established factories, which will have to import machinery for replacements only, but on new concerns that have to incur a large initial outlay on plant. There is a close connexion Detween cement-making and road-making, because the most advanced practice in civil engineering is to increasingly build concrete roads. .-. are especially necessary for heavy motor traffic, not only in the cities, but also eventually in the country districts. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member ig an optimist. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr MANN: -- 'Concrete roads are being built throughout America and eventually they will extend into Australian country districts. There could be no better encouragement of the cementmaking industry than the Commonwealth's road policy, which will involve an expenditure of £2,000,000 per annum for ten years. This expenditure should encourage new firms to establish cement factories throughout the country, and that should lead to a reduction in the price of cement, thus bringing concrete country roads within the realms of probability. {: #subdebate-19-0-s78 .speaker-L0I} ##### Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
Warringah .- Hitherto I have dutifully supported the Minister in defence of the items in the schedule, even to the extent of voting for the duties on whisky, but I ask the honorable gentleman to give way to some extent in regard to the duties on machinery for road-making. I am not so much concerned in the duties on cement-making machinery. The wealthy companies engaged in the manufacture of cement can well afford to pay higher duties on the machinery they require. Road-making machines are in an entirely different category. Good roads in Australia are absolutely essential for the welfare of the whole of the people. I live ia a- *eovmtrj* disfeuiet, and, in travelling, by motor cao?- and- other vehicles, am able to understand/, the- inconvenience! and expense caused to travellers, by inferior roads-. ! do not intend to support the imposition of a diuty -which will prevent the best machinery being- obtained at the cheapest price, irrespective of the country of origin.. Tie question of transport, as the- hoBosabie member for Perth- **(Mr. Mann)-** stated, is o-f the utmost importance to- the- Commonwealth, and I therefore support, the amendment moved by the- honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory)-.** {: #subdebate-19-0-s79 .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra .-It is. amusing to listen to the speeches of some honorable members opposite. No- one has said that good roads- are. not essential in this country,, and no- one is arguing that the best, means- of transport should not be provided. The bald statement that weneed gpod roads is not at all convincing. In perusing the list of articles isa tks: schedule, I. can see that there: is not one that we do not really need-, butr if. we) da not impose protective, duties,, we ca-noaot safeguard- aar industries-. We- need boots,, clothes,, aad. hats,, but. import, dailies are imposed oni those articles-. We need good roads;, but it is suggested by some.1 honorable members opposite that we should- not impose a. duty on machinecy used in their1 coaastrnction when- the> requisite- machinery is being manufactured in' Australia. {: .speaker-JVZ} ##### Mr CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 -- Why not' leave the duty at the old rate? {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I shall deal with that aspect, of the. question. The, purport of the argument of some honorable, membejisopposite is- that they f asrornr tha consteuctioni of good roads. Honorable members om this side o£ the,- chamber are alao, in favour of good roads. The members of the Labour party have, supported the> payment by the Commonwealth, of subsidies to. the States- to- assist- in. the. construction, of roads. If we are doing that protection should be afforded to those manufacturing road-making machinery. The honorable member fear Fawkner **(Mr. Maxwell.)** urged that nothing had been said to justify the increase. Some honorable members on the corner beaches say. that roadmaking machines are being imported-, and others assert that they are being made in Australia. It is true that we are manu facturing these-' machines, which- are quite as good as those produced in- any other part of the world. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Then eontinaie making them. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- We intend to do so, but we do not. wish the machines manufactured in other countries to enter into unfair competition with those made here. That fs why protective duties are imposed. I shall give honorable memBers a few facts to show the necessity for this duty. There are works in my electorate manufacturing road-making machines of the best quality. The- Clyde Engineering Works in Sydney are. also producing, roadmaking machinery which is equal to. the best, imported'. Mr.gregory. - Those companies have done remarkably well. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- They have- done fairly well-,, but had it- mot been for the protection afforded them they would, have- lest: a, lot ol- their- trade . It has been said that, the pnateatiaMBi afforded under: the 1901; tariff: was: sufikienA; but. tha conditions in Great Britain, to-day, as: compared with 1921. are very different. Since 1921, there has been, areduction of 1,000 employees in- Australian industries making- machines- covered fey this item. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- If that reduction continues what will happen- in. another five yefars? Mr.SCULLIN.- The honorable member for Swain is. becoming, a nuisance. There, has. beeac a seduction of 1,000 in. the number oi employees sinca 1921, whilst the value, of the output in Australia has decreased' from £24,360,000 to £24,100,000. {: .speaker-KNP} ##### Mr Maxwell: -- In which; industry has there* been- a reduction- of 1,000 employees ?" {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- The- industries engaged Sa- the- manufacture- of the machines mentioned in item176. This information was given in sworn evidence by lna-nufaeturers before the Tariff Boaad'. The importations of. this class- of ra-achiLaei'y in 1920 were valued at £6,270,000, whereas in 1924 they werevalued at £12,000,000. What are the reasons? How was it possible for manufacturers abroad, to beat the local manufacturer?In 1921, when the. last, tariff was under consiaeration, the Melbourne City Council called fear tenders for the supply of a steam roller. A. British company submitted a price of £2,500 and an Australian manufacturer quoted£2,540 It will probably be said that,, as. thetenders were praefcically the same, thereis no reasonf or an increased duty. That is a fair, question., and one which I intend to. answer. The grice in 192,5 for a road roller of British manufacture was £1,380. How is it that a British manufacturer could reduce his price from. £2,500, as. quoted in. 1921, to £1,380 in 1925 ? There has also been a big reduction in wages in Great Britain. {: .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr Coleman: -- Of approximately 50 per cent. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- More than that, in many cases. Do honorable members wish wages fu Australia to be reduced ? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Did the cost of living, in Great Britain come down? {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- The cost ofliving does not affect the issue. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -The honorablft member is- notconversant witta the conditions in- Great Britain.. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I know the- conditions in- Australia. The point at issue1 *is* that wages have deeKned *iea-* Great Britain-, whilst in Australia the same standard has been maintained. Thewages for a skilled labourer in this: industry inGreat Britain are 56s. 6d.,. and in Australia 103s. 6d. a '"week, or a. difference- of about 92" per cent. in. favour of Australia. The wages, for unskilled labour in Great Britain in this industry are 40s. and in Australia 85s-.. a week,, or a difference, of 112 per cent. The price- of raw material in Great Britain ranges from £4 5s. to £5 5s. , whereas, in. Australia it is *£7* a ton or a little over, or a difference of 50 per cent. In Great Britain steel bars cost and in Australia the cost is £'14 per ton. In these circumstances the, duty should be increased'. We are endeavouring to maintain a high standard in Australia. The conditions which obtained' in Great Britain in- 1921 have- changed entirely, and instead of the proposed rate- being Mgh, as some- honorable- members suggest, it is, in> my opinion, inadequate. J have given honoraible- members, a few facts which are worthy of their- closest attention. It seems imjpossibles to satisfy the honorable, member for Forrest. **(Mr. Prowse-)),** whoi believes that floods, famines, and fives are due either to the operation, of the Navigation Act or the tariff.. I am sxxmewkat surprised,, however,, at the attiitude of tha honorable, member for Wanno-n **(Mr.. Rodgers1),,** who. delivered, a. strong.- protectionist speech during the general debate on the tariff a few days ago-,, and who- flayed' the honorable member for Forest **(Mr. Prowse)** and has colleagues for their freetrade tendencies. He said that they were- protectionists on some items and freetraders on others. He criticized their actions most severely, but is now guilty of the acts of which he accused them. He said' he believed1 in a high duty being imposed on cementmaking machinery, but he fell1 dWn- flat as a freetrader on the question: o-f roadmailting machinery. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member is such a fiscal bigot that he- will swallow a-nything-. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I am a consistent pro>tectfondst. I have closely studied all the recommendations of the Tariff Board since it has been, appointed. I am particw- 1 airly interested in the protective policy of ibis, country,, and. I am mofe aQtogetbersatisfied with what has- been, aceomplitsked uip to the present. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Wiil the hoHorabltemember say that the honorable- member for Swath Sydney **(Mr. E. Riley)-,** thehonorable member for Balaclava **(Mr.. Watt),,** and the hoa-wnrahle member for East Sydney **(Mr. West)** were good protectionists when the other night- they opposed the dluty on spirits: which the honorable1 member- supported? {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- I do not say that they are not good- protectionists, but- on the item to- which tha honoirable' member refers they failed. We are now on. item 176-. The hoaiorable members- on this, side of the ehambeu,. to- whom, the honorable member for Wasnmon. referred,. have recovered from their" whisky staggers," bitfc- he has? not. I. must remind hiiEi tharfc the right' honorable member for Balaclava **(Mr. Watt)** and thedither honorable members to. whom lie referred had am alternative to the Government proposal which would have given the local industry protection, but would have resulted in a serious Toss of revenue. I did not agree with- his method of protecting- the industry, but they had a method. The honorable member for Wannon has no method of protecting locally-made road-making machinery. He is a high protectionist for cementmaking machinery, but almost a freetrader for road-making machinery. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- The honorable member for Yarra did not protest against coalcutting machinery being on the free list. He had not a word to say about it. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- The right honorable member for North Sydney **(Mr. Hughes)** is quite wrong. I did not happen to be present when the item covering coalcutting machinery was discussed, so I could not say anything about it. Like the right honorable member, I am, at times, absent from the chamber. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- The absence, perhaps, was convenient on that occasion. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr SCULLIN: -- It was not. As a matter of fact, I had intended to speak on two items of the schedule that were passed to-day; but we are dealing with the schedule so rapidly that it is difficult for an honorable member to keep pace with the business. I venture to say that no honorable member has taken a keener interest than I have in these proceedings. Why should we discuss under this item the necessity for good roads? The question before us is, whether there is a case for the imposition of this duty or not. In my judgment there is. The changed conditions of the last few years have made the previous tariff insufficient. Let us deal with this item on its merits, and leave the question of good roads for discussion on a more fitting occasion. {: #subdebate-19-0-s80 .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr JACKSON:
Bass .- I cannot support the amendment by the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory).** I favour the item as it stands. If the Minister thinks it advisable to reduce the British preference to 30 per cent., I shall be willing to support him, but in no circumstance will I vote for a reduction of the intermediate tariff from 45 per cent., or the general tariff from 50 per cent. The honorable member for Warringah **(Sir Granville Ryrie)** said that to get good roads he would get machinery from anywhere. I could agree with bis statement if he added to it, " in Australia." I shall do everything in uiy power to prevent German machinery from entering into competition with the Australian product. In my opiuion, Germany will shortly be our most serious competitor. It has not been possible for us to get rid of millions of pounds of our national debt by a stroke of the pen or a wave of the hand, as Germany has done, and consequently we are not in anything like the favorable economic position that she occupies. I am surprised that honorable members who saw the wisdom of supporting an almost prohibitive duty on cotton tweeds are swallowing the bait of the freetrade members of this chamber, and opposing the duty on roadmaking machinery. I say quite definitely that I shall refuse to support any reduction of the general and intermediate tariff on this item, although I am prepared to support a small reduction of the British preferential tariff. {: #subdebate-19-0-s81 .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I see the logic of the stand taken by the honorable member for Bass **(Mr. Jackson),** but there is sometimes a conflict between logic and merit. This proposed duty ranges higher than the average duty on agricultural machinery, which is regarded as adequate. There are many involved types of agricultural machines. On the merits of the case, I favour the proposed reduction. As to the question of road construction, I should like to see every penny of the Commonwealth grant of £20,000,000 for Australian roads go to Australian workmen and Australian industry. I am aware that the spending of the money will be vested chiefly in our local governing bodies, and that, in the main, they have a conscience which leads them to give a preference to local industry. Two or three cases which indicate a reverse attitude have been given a good deal of publicity in this debate, and probably rightly so, but nevertheless I believe that the bulk of this money will be spent in the interests of Australian workers and Australian industry. There is a point in regard to the duty on textiles that the honorable member for Bass should remember. The tax on that item is levied on the whole community, but the tax on road-making machinery is really an additional burden on local ratepayers, who, as land-holders, are already heavily taxed. The cost of road-making in Australia to-day is outrageously high. It is nest to impossible to make roads here that are worth the money spent on them, and every road that is made involves an additional heavy expense for maintenance. This is a stupendous question that has been pushed right to the forefront of both Federal and State programmes. I urge that we should use common sense and moderation in the expenditure of our public money. {: #subdebate-19-0-s82 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Forrest .- I should not have participated again in the debate on this item but for the remarks of certain honorable members who represent city constituencies, and who are not at all careful about the terms in which they refer to honorable members who differ from them. A conflict of two ideals causes strange things to happen at times. Let me quote, as an illustration, an experience of the Western Australian Government. It had decided to purchase another ship to replace one of the fleet of the Government line. Of course, it desired to have the ship built in Australia, but it called for tenders in Australia and England. When they were opened, it was found that a ship built at Cockatoo Island Dockyard would cost nearly twice as much as a ship built in England. The Government then had to decide between two ideals - one, the development of its State shipping line; and the other, the encouragement of Australian industry. The problem was rendered the more difficult of solution by reason of the fact that the Government shipping line was losing from £70,000 to £100,000 a year. {: #subdebate-19-0-s83 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The honorable member ought to state that the British quote was only made possible because of the assistance given to the British shipbuilders by the British Industries Preservation Act, by which it was possible for them to work on borrowed money without paying interest for years. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- The Government decided that it would save its shipping line, and have the vessel built in England. After the decision was announced, a deputation from the Trades Hall waited upon the Premier to request him to alter it. When the members of the deputation stated their case, the Minister laid all his cards on the table, and asked them to say whether, on the facts, it was possible to have the ship built in Australia, and the deputation decided that it could not honorably say that it was. On the definite matter of road-making machinery, we ought to bear in mind that good roads are essential to the development of Australia. If this duty is ratified, heavier burdens will be placed upon local governing bodies which are charged with the responsibility of road-making, and it will be impossible for them to operate satisfactorily. Some of the roads boards in Western Australia are trying to co-operate in the purchase of up-to-date road-making machinery, but the imposition of this duty will render it almost impossible for them to do very much. Surely a 27^ per cent, protective duty is sufficient for the Australian manufacturers. If they put their shoulder to the wheel and work hard they should be able to compete without a duty. . As far as cement-making machines are concerned, all I desire to say is that if the Australian manufacturers could market their cement alt a- little lower price, the output would be increased tenfold. It is all very well for the honorable member for South Sydney **(Mr. E. Riley)** to say that cement is cheap around Sydney. The reverse is the case at places distant from the capital cities. In the north of Queensland, for instance, where they need cement for making channels, dams, roads, and a hundred and one other things, it is too expensive for the people to think of using it. Itis a heavy commodity, and the freight from the capital cities to the distant parts of the Commonwealth, makes the price of it almost prohibitive. The only way that the people who need the cement most can get it at a reasonable price is to establish sma 11 cement works in their own localities; but the imposition of this higher duty on cement-making machinery will make it more difficult for them to do even that. Are we never going to give any consideration to the requirements of our outposts ? It is less costly to ship cement from England than from Sydney to the north Queensland ports. I trust that the amendment of the honorable member for Swan will be carried. {: #subdebate-19-0-s84 .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- I had intended to reserve my remarks on the general question . of machinery until the next item was before us. I have listened carefully to the arguments that have been advanced during the last hour for and against, this duty, but before embarking upon my m contribution to the debate, I wish to remind honorable members that they still have a good deal of work to do in order to complete their consideration of this schedule. Perhaps the few observations I have now to offer may .clarify the position. I am prepared to meet the committee to some extent in .this matter, but I first want to say most seriously that in no circumstances, unless by *force* *majeure,* will the Government agree to reduce the general tariff rate on machinery. The Industries Preservation Act, -during the past two or three years, has been operating in a good many instances against German goods because of the depreciated German currency. The Prime Minister stated About nine months ago that the German currency was no longer depreciated. But while *be .gazettals remain - amd I refuse to lift them - I anm afraid that we must admit that, under present circumstances, we hame no legal .power tin collect dumping duties on that section. For that reason, the Government will not agree to reduce *he duties imposed upon foreign machinery. This is . OUT rampart against und:ne competition from countries from which competition may rapidly come. I think that all honorable members are sympathetic towards the Mother Country, and to show that the gesture of preference which has been made still remains, in spite of all that has been said, I am prepared, on behalf of the Government, to accept an amendment reducing the British preferential rate on road-making machines n.e.i., and stone-crushing machines from 35 per cent, to 30 per -cent. ; but I am. not willing to reduce the dirty on foreign goods. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- What about cementmaking machines? {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- I omit cementmaking machinery because it is being made successfully in Australia. There are at least four cement works equipped with Australian machinery. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- To what items will the reduction apply? {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- Item 1T6b would then read - " Cement-making machines, n.e.i.; aerial ropeways, exclusive of cable ; hand-operated - travelling and portable cranes; coal conveyors and ashhandling plant, exclusive of motive power equipment, ad valorem, 35 per cent. British, 45 per cent, intermediate, and 50 per cent, .general.53 Another sub-item would nave to be included, namely - "Road-making machines, n.e.i.; .stonecrushing machines, ad valorem, 30 per cent. British, 45 per cent, intermediate, and 50 (per cent, 'general." Road -making machines would be n.e.i., because there is a horse-rolling machine under agricultural implements. The same foreign duties would remain. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Has the Minister any guarantee that the machines are not made in Germany ? {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- That is a matter of administration. German machines .arc usually branded as such. The passing of this tariff will mean increased vigilance in connexion with the Customs administration. {: #subdebate-19-0-s85 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Swan .- I suppose that I shall have to be satisfied with the Minister's proposal, but, before I withdraw any amendment, I must express my disappointment with the nature of the debate. With the exception of the honorable member for Tarra (Mr. Scullin), one honorable member after another was prepared to agree to .any duty without submitting any reason for doing so. The honorable member for Yarra certainly clarified the position, and explained his reasons for supporting the duties, but other honorable members were prepared to stand behind the Australian manufacturers .and to impose any duty, irrespective of its virtue, or the necessity for its imposition. I should not be surprised if in the near future the Minister and many honorable members demanded something in the nature of prohibition. The 'honorable member for Yarra told us that in 1921, just after there had been asn. extraordinary increase in the duties, there were thousands more men employed in this industry than are employed in it to-day. The natural corollary is that if .the 'duties are further increased, no persons will be employed in the industry. That is the direction in whch we are drifting. We had a magnificent export trade in agricultural machinery before high duties on that machinery were imposed. We have now lost that trade. For the same reason we have lost the trade which we previously had in -superphosphates. The honorable member for Wannon **(Mr. Rodgers)** cannot -see why -the duties on cement-making machines should be reduced. Does he know that the cement companies of Australia are making enormous profits? Does he desire that any new companies which may engage in this business shall be handicapped in their competition with the older companies? It is only about two years ago that these companies, which are now so wealthy that they have to hide their profits, got the Minister to impose a special dumping duty on cement landed here at less than certain freight rates. The price of cement in Australia is approximately three times the price in the United States of America. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not proposing to increase the duty on cement, but on cement-making machinery. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- There is a great demand for cement throughout Australia. If some companies are making such enormous profits it would be wise to allow other companies to enter into competition, with them. If necessary, the cement duties could also be reduced. I object to honorable members being prepared to impose additional duties when there is no justification for the increase, and when the higher duties will only mean extra profits to the manufacturers. It is heartbreaking to find honorable members willing to go to any extreme in the imposition of duties, regardless of what the people will be called upon to pay. I ask leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment (by leave) withdrawn. Amendment (by **Mr. Pratten)** proposed - >That the item be amended by adding the following to sub-item d And on and after 25th March. 1926 : - 176 d (1). Cement-making machines, n.e.i.; aerial rope-ways exclusive of cable; hand operated, travelling, and portable cranes; coal conveyors and ash-handling plant, exclusive of motive power equipment, ad. val., British, 35 per cent. ; intermediate, 45 per cent.; general, 50 per cent. 170 d (2), Road-making machines, n.e.i., stone-crushing machines, ad. val., 30 per cent., British; 45 per cent., intermediate; 50 per cent., general." {: #subdebate-19-0-s86 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- I must express my surprise at the action of the Minister in proposing this amendment. It appears that, having accepted the suggestion of certain members in the Ministerial corner, he has got what he deserves, because be had no sooner expressed his willingness to reduce the British preferential tariff than the honorable member for Swan **(Mr.** Gregory) immediately found fault with him. I submit that these machines are in exactly the same category as other machinery manufactured in Australia. There is no difference in principle. We are all desirous of having good roads in Australia; but we are not justified in refusing to have the machinery necessary for constructing those roads manufactured in Australia. The Minister said that he would not agree to an alteration of the duty on machines imported from foreign countries. He also pointed out that there was a possibility of some of these machines coming from Germany. I have no objection to giving preference to Great Britain; but our first duty is to our own manufacturers. If we can manufacture any article here, and by its manufacture give employment to our ownpeople, we are not justified in giving an undue preference even to Great Britain, although we are justified in giving that country an advantage over foreign countries. Can the Minister say that these machines will not be taken from Germany to England unassembled, and, after assembly there, sent bo Australia? I have a lively recollection of what happened a few years ago when I moved a censure motion because of the Government's attitude towards the iron and steel industry. I pointed out then that iron and steel goods from Germany were sent to England, where they were put together, and afterwards shipped to Australia, the British exporter claiming that he was entitled to British preference because the machinery was 25 per cent. British manufacture.. As a result of the importation of iron and steel into Great Britain, British workmen were displaced, and many iron and steel works in the Mother Country were closed down. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member knows that there has been a revision of the principle of British preference in our tariff. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Yes ; but the depreciated currencies of European countries place British manufacturers at a disadvantage. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- There is no depreciated currency in Germany to-day. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- No; but other countries besides Germany manufacture these heavy machines. The statement which I made in this House several years ago was disputed at the time, but I had the satisfaction, three years later, o* hearing the Minister say that everything I had said cm the occasions referred to was absolutely true. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- The Industries Preservation Act operates in regard to any country with a depreciated currency. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- As far as dumping is concerned, yes; but the Minister has missed my point. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The alteration to the principle of British preference now makes dumping impossible. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I do not agree with the honorable member. There is nothing to prevent iron and steel from being imported into Britain from Belgium or Trance, assembled in Great Britain, and sent to Australia under the British preferential tariff. When I was in England this was being done, and the franc had not then fallen to its present level. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- Whilst the Leader of the Opposition was away this Parliament passed a measure which provided that to secure the benefits of the preferential tariff, goods from Great Britain must contain at least 75 per cent. British labour or material. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- That information appeared in an English newspaper whilst I was there. Honorable members should not forget that the franc has fallen from about *25 to* the fi sterling prior to the war to about 135 at the present time. This favours the speculators. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I doubt if the depreciation of the franc affects the position in any way. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- When I was in England many British iron and steel works had closed down owing to continental competition, and there was practically no demand for British coal. It was complained that much of the unemployment then prevailing was due to the importation of iron and steel from France, Belgium, and Germany. The position is no better to-day, so we should hesitate before we do anything that might give preference to iron or steel products from countries with a depreciated currency. After the complete exposition of the case for the Australian manufacturers given by the honorable member for Yarra **(Mr. Scullin),** there is no need for any honorable member to traverse the same ground. I am surprised that the Minister has backed down. This is the second time he has weakened this evening during the debate on the schedule. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- I hope it will not be the last. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The Minister gave way on the item referring to coal-cutting machines, which makes no difference to any one. All honorable members know that the incident was due to a little " legpulling," and that the item was challenged merely to bring the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** to his feet. The Minister, believing there was something real in the display, however, gave way. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- If the Minister is as pliable as the honorable member suggests, there is hope for us yet. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- If the Minister gives way like this, honorable members on this side who stand for the policy of protection will have to do a little fighting. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member knows very well that no tariff goes through without some compromise. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I do not mind compromise, but when I see a disposition on the part of the Minister to give way too readily, it is about time for us to protest. We stand for the encouragement of Australian industries and the employment of our own people. That the majority of honorable members are declared protectionists was clearly shown in the division last night, when 46 members voted for a certain item, and only eleven were opposed to it. There is only a small minority opposed to these duties, and I regret that the Minister has, in a moment of weakness, given way on this item. It will not affect our road-making policy one iota. Even if it did, in view of the fact that the Commonwealth is providing so much money for road-making, we have every right to see that our own people secure employment in the manufacture of machines for road-making purposes. Those honorable members who object to these duties are inconsistent. They are in favour of borrowing money to bring immigrants to this country, but will do nothing to encourage industries that will provide employment. The only way to provide employment and develop this country, and increase its population, is to foster its industries. The development of the secondary industries creates a market for the produce of the man on the land. There is no escape from that conclusion, and I am surprised that representatives of country constituencies cannot see the force of the argument. Without a home market, the man on the land is doomed to failure. Dozens of settlers, many of them returned soldiers, are in difficulties to-day because they have not a home market. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The honorable member's policy is killing the home market. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- On the contrary, it is making the home market. The home market is being killed by those who will not foster home industries. {: .speaker-KXR} ##### Mr Parsons: -- Many of the items in this tariff will seriously increase the cost of living to the men with whom the honorable member is now sympathizing. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- This tariff will not increase the cost of living to any appreciable extent. A gentleman interested in motor accessories was speaking to me this evening. He said that, prior to the recent duties being imposed, certain accessories cost over £8. A factory for the manufacture of them was started in Australia, and the Australian-made accessory was placed on the market at a price less than that of the imported article. Immediately the importers brought their price down to £4, a reduction of 100 per cent. The price of the Australian article is now within 5s. of the price of the imported article. That shows how the importers exploited the market before there was protection. The greater the output of an article, the lower is the cost of production. If there is not a market for a large output, it is usually impossible to produce at a cheap rate. That is why I believe in protection for a young country like Australia. In support of the tariff, it is only necessary to point to the progress that America has made under her tariff. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- With piece-work and everything else. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- There is "piecework and everything else " in Australia at the present time. There is no reason* why Australia should not establish industries, employ her people, and develop her country as fast as America has done. We ought to be able to increase our population more rapidly than we have done during recent years. I am surprised at the Minister giving way to the oppostion on this item. If he is going to give way on other items that we still have to consider, honorable members on this side will have to put up a fight. These machines can be manufactured in this country just as well as many other things with which we have been dealing. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Minister has stood by the schedule well. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I do not say that he has not, but the honorable member should remember that members of the Oppostion have stood by it, too. I am protesting now because the Minister has commenced to weaken. {: #subdebate-19-0-s87 .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN:
Reid .- Two amazing things have happened this evening. We have had the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory)** advocating increased duties on coal-cutting machines, and the spectacle of the "man of iron," the Minister for Trade and Customs, allowing the schedule to be amended by a reduction. It seems to me that the dreary drip of freetrade declamation that we have had from the Ministerial corner has worn away the protectionist stone. I stand behind my leader **(Mr. Charlton)** in objecting to this alteration of the schedule, and I hope that every honorable member on this side will protest against the weak action of the Minister in yielding to the representations from the corner. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr Manning: -- The honorable member stood behind the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. A. Green)** once tonight. {: .speaker-JZK} ##### Mr COLEMAN: -- The honorable member is misrepresenting me. I said that there was something in the honorable member for Kalgoorlie's argument which required answering by the Minister. Later the Minister answered it to my satisfaction. I claim to have been consistent throughout this debate. I should like to know what increased cost will be incurred in the construction of roads by the slight increase proposed in the British preferential rate on this item. The arguments put forward in favour of the reduction are hair-splitting. The honorable member for Yarra **(Mr. Scullin)** has pointed out that our most dangerous competitor in the engineering field is Great Britain. Any honorable member who has visited Australian engineering shops will have been informed that English competition is most to be feared. The general manager of the Broken Hill works, and the manager of any engineering works in any of the States, will confirm that statement. It is not an anti-British sentiment; it is brought about by the depreciated wages in that country. I showed the other night that while prices of certain electrical and engineering requirements had fallen by 70 per cent., wages had fallen by only 30 per cent. We have just as much to fear from dumped goods from England as from any other country. A duty of 35 per cent., in view of all the facts submitted during the secondreading debate and in committee, is hardly sufficient to meet the competition of English manufacturers of road-making machines. I strongly object to the proposed alteration of the schedule. {: #subdebate-19-0-s88 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I should like to know if the Minister has reconsidered this matter. Does the Prime Minister agree, after this item has been debated for the whole night, with the , Minister's proposition to go back upon the original proposal of the Government because a member of the Country party who never supports the Government has moved for a reduction of the duty *1* Directly the Minister gave way on one item, the members of the Country party demanded another reduction. That is probably what will be done in connexion with every remaining item of the schedule. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Country party members have been encouraged to do it. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- They have been encouraged by the weakness of the Minister. The Cabinet adopted this schedule, and the party opposite agreed to it. We have been trying to do the best we can for the industries in this country, but the Minister in a weak moment backed down. Country party members, assuming that they had the Government on the run, immediately moved a further amendment. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- The honorable member started it himself on coal-cutting machinery. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have pointed out before that the engineering industry of the Commonwealth is in a deplorable state. Thousands of men were walking about the streets hoping that the duties to be imposed on machinery would lead to their re-employment. A reduction of 5 per cent, in the duty on road-making machinery is not going to lessen the cost of making roads. I have said before that a reduction of the duty on cementmanufacturing machinery will not lead to the construction of good roads in country districts. In most country districts the roads have not yet reached such a stage of development as to make the use of steam road rollers possible. I think the Minister would do well to report progress now, and when we have slept on the matter we shall be able to-morrow to dispose of it very easily. Did the reasons given by the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Gregory)** convince the Minister that he was wrong when he submitted these duties in the tariff schedule *1* {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr PRATTEN:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT -- The honorable member saw how the honorable member for Swan impressed me by hig proposal for a return of the old duty on coal-cutting machines instead of allowing them to come in free, as provided for in the schedule. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- No, it was I who suggested that alteration. Honorable members on this side are not prepared to see the manufacturers of this country brow-beaten by members of the Country party, who do not believe in the establishment of secondary industries. What they want is a high price for maize, a good market for wheat, a duty of £4 per ton for potatoes, cheap freights, cheap labour, and good roads. If they get these things they have no care for any one else. The division which took place on the duties on cotton goods showed that this committee is protectionist to the backbone. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Prohibition to the backbone. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- A majority of 46 to 11 in favour of 'a protective duty is surely an indication that the committee stands for the encouragement of local industries. The engineering industry is crying out for more protection, and yet it is proposed to go back to the old duty, which was found to be insufficient to effectively protect the industry, and led to numbers of men being thrown out of employment. {: .speaker-KMQ} ##### Mr Mann: -- The unemployment argument is one to which the honorable member never listens when it is submitted from this side. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- If we import all the machinery required for the development of this country, we shall have many thousands of people unemployed. I have been returned to this House as a protectionist. I see that our reinforcements are arriving, and I may take advantage of an opportunity to speak again later on. {: #subdebate-19-0-s89 .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING:
Macquarie -- I have no doubt that before agreeing to submit the amendment suggested to him, the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Pratten)** thoroughly considered the matter. I am absolutely confident that he has the interests of the country at heart. He would not have moved the amendment if he did not think that the industry is sufficiently protected. I do not think that the schedule as printed cannot be improved. I was one who yesterday asked the Minister to withdraw a certain item in order that the proposed duty might be increased, and I should do the same to-night if I thought that should be done. I am essentially interested in primary production in this country. As a primary producer, I consider that a protectionist tariff is in the interests of primary producers. As the Leader of the Opposition has said, the best market we can get for our primary products is our home market. I want to see that market increased as much as possible. Last year a friend of mine was starting a new industry, and told me that he had brought out sixteen British expert operatives, with their families to work in it. He said to me, "Do you not think I have done more for the country in bringing these men out to work in a secondary industry than I should have done if I had brought them out to start growing fruits for drying for a market that is oversupplied?" I had to admit that I thought he had done right. It is only a little over twelve months since I was in Western Australia, and a royal commission was taking evidence on the disabilities of that State as a partner in the federation. Either honorable members from that State, who are taking such a prominent part in this debate, and not representing the views of the people of that State, or a most remarkable change in public opinion has occurred there. I was in. Western Australia when the royal commission was taking evidence in regard to the disabilities of that State under federation, and the fact impressed upon me by witnessess and conversations with citizens was the handicap imposed upon Western Australia by the removal of the interstate tariff barriers that existed prior to federation. They pointed out that their young secondary industries were not able to compete against the larger and betterestablished industries in the eastern States, which had a bigger local market and could produce on a large scale. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- The honorable member evidently heard more than the commission. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING: -- I am relating what was told to me by many people, including the honorable member "for Forrest. Yet he and others representing Western Australia are trying to break down the existing tariff barrier and thus bring about in the eastern States a condition of affairs the existence of which in Western Australia induced the Commonwealth Government to make a grant of £450,000 to that State. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Twaddle ! {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING: -- I am giving the honorable member a little of his own medicine. When the Western Australia Grant Bill was before the House we were told that the condition of that State was so pitiable that it must have £450,000 from the Commonwealth Treasury. Ona sees no evidence of poverty amongst the residents of Western Australia. {: #subdebate-19-0-s90 .speaker-L0I} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sir Granville Ryrie:
WARRINGAH, NEW SOUTH WALES -- Does the honorable member propose to connect these remarks with the item before the committee ? {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING: -- Yes. The. duties on this item will help to keep going an important secondary industry, and, if they are reduced at the instance of Western Australian members, the secondary industries in the eastern States will suffer as those in the west through the loss of tariff protection. By supporting the secondary industries we are acting in the best interests of our country. In my own electorate there is an iron foundry employing 3,000 men. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Enough said. {: .speaker-KMS} ##### Mr MANNING: -- My personal political interests would be better served if that industry were in the honorable member's electorate, but I am voting for a policy that I consider beneficial to Australia. A ' few miles from the iron foundry is a cement factory employing 900 men, and nearby is a town of 5,000 people- who are entirely dependent upon that factory. Any one who has seen that town, entirely supported, as it is, by this one factory, and does not realize the value of the market, thus provided for our primary products is lacking in judgment. I feel sure that the Minister agreed to the amendment with his eyes open, and I, as a primary producer, will support him in giving such protection as he thinks necessary to enable the secondary industries to develop and so increase the home market for primary products. {: #subdebate-19-0-s91 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- This is only the second occasion upon which a tariff schedule has been introduced with the endorsement of the Tariff Board, after full investigation of all the duties proposed. The amendment involves a reduction of the duties recommended by the board, and every true protectionist must oppose that on principle. If the Minister had realized the trouble that would result, he would not have accepted the amendment, but would have allowed the question to be decided by a vote of the committee. The Minister may have thought that, by making a small concession, he would overcome a little opposition, but he has encouraged the fighting spirit of honorable members in the Ministerial corner. They have tasted blood, and will clamour for more sacrifices. I do not object to those shandygaff freetraders, or advanced revenue tariffists, fighting for principles in which they believe, but elevenmembers must not be allowed to think that they can override the protectionist sentiment of this committee and the people. If the electors could vote on this issue, they would declare for a protective policy, possibly equalled only by the tariffs of the United States of America and Japan. The extent to which Germany protects her interests is indicated by the fact that a small phonograph, a typewriter, or a pocket pedometer has to pay a duty of £12 {: .speaker-L0I} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sir Granville Ryrie: -- I remind honorable members that the general debate on the tariff is completed, and I ask them to confine their remarks to the specific item before the committee and the amendment thereon. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I have not the amendment moved by the Minister before me, but if you, sir, will allow me to peruse it, I shall endeavour to make my remarks relevant to the question before the Chair. The amendment proposes to reduce by 5 per cent. the British preferential rate. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- It should have been 45 per cent. in the original schedule, instead of 35 per cent. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- It should have been increased. The Associated Chambers of Manufactures of Australia, in referring to machines and machinery, locomotives, road roller, and motive power machinery included in items 176, 177, and 178, state - >These might be termed the general engineering items, and, therefore, at the outset, it is desired to stress the importance of the engineering industry to Australia from the national stand-point, and the necessity for having thoroughly well-equipped engineering shops fully manned in the matter of defence will appeal to all. It is regrettable that in recent years this industry has been through a period of severe depression that almost crippled it, but it is gratifying that a timely rescue was brought about by the introduction of the new tariff schedule. The Tariff Board, after an exhaustive inquiry, was unable to see its way to recommend duties to the extent that had been applied for, and their recommendations are the duties included in the new schedule. Two of the disabilities that Australian engineers have to contend with are the high cost of raw material, and that of labour, compared with those of the United Kingdom, apart from the position obtaining in foreign countries. For these reasons it has been impossible to obtain a fair quota of the trade, which is reflected in the number of large orders which have been sent overseas. One of the large engineering firms kept a record of tenders submitted during the period 1st July, 1923, to 31st March, 1924, which totalled£ 2,428,921, but all the business they secured was 6.6 per cent., the largest proportion of the balance being placed overseas, the difference in Australian quotations with tenders from other countries ranging from 25 per cent. to 77 per cent., after allowing for duty, freight, and all landing charges. It might be pointed out that, with regard to efficiency, the firm referred to is recognized as being one of the most uptodate and efficient shops in Australia. Taking all things into consideration, and the special conditions the workmen enjoy in Australia as compared to those in Great Britain, by reason of the fact that the Commonwealth Arbitration Court award provides a weekly wage, payment for holidays, and sickness, and restricted juvenile labour, it is safe to say that wages in Australia are fully 100 per cent. higher than in the United Kingdom. It cannot be denied that the skill and ability of the Australian engineer is quite on a par with those in competing countries, and the work turned out compares favorably, so that all that is necessary is for tbe industry to be sufficiently protected to place it on an equal footing in regard to all the circumstances with its competitors overseas. To show the importance of the industry, according to the returns of the Commonwealth Statistician for the year ended 30th June, 1924, in connexion with engineering and foundries, it may be noted that there were 1,343 factories, employing 33,052 hands, and paying in wages £6,949,295, with value of plant and buildings £10,918,919, and the value of output £24,151,439. It may be said that for Australian requirements there are classes of machinery which are not made in Australia, in many instances because of the limited demand it is not a commercial proposition to produce them here. Attention is therefore directed to item 174, which provides for the free admission of such. It is urged that the items and duties in the schedule be ratified as of great necessity tothe well-being of Australia. > >Such a statement from the Associated Chambers of Manufactures of Australia must appeal to every honorable member. While I trust that Great Britain will continue to prosper, I hope that she will wipe out that infamy which permits her to receive a preference on the basis of goods being 100 per cent. of British manufacture, whereas in many cases they consist of only 75 per cent. of British manufacture, the balance being imported from Germany or some other foreign country. The Minister, I believe, in answer to a question I submitted some time since, said that the proportion of British manufacture required to secure the benefitof the British preferential tariff, in respect of imports from Great Britain, had been increased from 25 per cent. to 75 per cent. Even this is not fair to the British workman, and in justice to Great Britain I am anxious to see an alteration made. The Minister agreed, I suppose, for the sake of peace and quietness, to take 5 per cent. off the British preference, but if he persists in that practice he will find himself engaged in the most lively tariff debate that he has ever known. After all, honorable members who are trying to reduce the tariff are only shandy-gaff freetraders. I have no objection to German manufactures coming here under reasonable conditions. A few years ago the phrase "Made in Germany" rang throughout the world. I believe that similar prominence could be given to the phrase " Made in England " if the British people set to work. I conversed with a good many English people, a year or so ago, when I had the pleasure of touring South Africa in the company of the Minister for Works and Railways **(Mr. Hill),** and Conservatives and Liberals alike told me that they thought it was a blot on the escutcheon of Old England that she should, by a subterfuge, introduce into Australia manufactures that were said to be British, but which, in fact, were not. For many years Australia has elected huge majorities of protectionists to this Parliament with the object of developing a really sound protectionist policy. The honorable member for Swan, in the course of this debate, said that a certain machine cost three times as much in Australia as in the United States of America. I should like him to give me proof of the statement. In conclusion, may I say that the glove has been thrown down. If the Minister attempts to whittle dowa his tariff, we shall understand that he has picked it up; and we shall fight without quarter. > >Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 1999 {:#debate-20} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-20-0} #### The Price of Butter Motion (by **Mr. Bruce)** proposed - That the House do now adjourn. {: #subdebate-20-0-s0 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I shall not delay honorable members very long. I merely wish to say that when I ask a question in this Blouse with the object of ascertaining the price of Australian butter here and in England, I expect a plain answer to it. If every householder in Australia who buysa lb. of butter is contributing 3d. to a fund to enable butter to be exported on a profitable basis, let them be told so in unequivocal language. I asked the Minister representing the Minister for Markets and Migration a questionon this point, and I hope he will not be offended when I say that I got a fat lot of information from him. When I inquire, for the purposes of comparison, the price per lb. that butter is being sold at in London and in Melbourne, on a given date, I do not desire to know the price per cwt. I only want a plain answer to my question. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 10.58 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 24 March 1926, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1926/19260324_reps_10_113/>.

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House of Representatives24 March 1926

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Mr COLEMAN:REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MARR:Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr BOWDEN:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr E RILEY:SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr BRUCE:

Mr E RILEY:SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr MARR:

Mr E RILEY:SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr HILL:Minister for Works and Railways · ECHUCA, VICTORIA · CP

QUESTION

ADMINISTRATOR OF NAURU

Mr BLAKELEY:DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

S.S. WOTAN

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

COCKATOO ISLAND DOCKYARD

Mr MAHONY:DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:NAT

COAL MINING INDUSTRY

Mr CHARLTON:Hunter

Mr Hughes:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Watkins:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Hughes:

Mr Hughes:

Mr Bruce:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr G FRANCIS:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Latham:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Latham:

Mr Scullin:

Mr Latham:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Hughes:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Scullin:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Hughes:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Hughes:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Latham:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Hughes:

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Littleton Groom:DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Coleman:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Coleman:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Seabrook:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Seabrook:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Seabrook:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Scullin:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr Hughes:

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr WATKINS:Newcastle

Mr Latham:

Mr WATKINS:

Mr BRUCE:Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

Mr Charlton:

Mr BRUCE:

Mr LAZZARINI:Werriwa

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir littleton Groom:

House of Representatives
24 March 1926

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr BOWDEN:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · ECHUCA, VICTORIA · CP

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr MAHONY:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

Mr G FRANCIS:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · NAT

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Littleton Groom:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

Mr HUGHES:
North Sydney

Mr SCULLIN:
Yarra

Mr LATHAM:
AttorneyGeneral · Kooyong · NAT

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr GIBSON:
Postmaster-General · CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · CP

Mr YATES:
through Mr. Makin

Mr MARR:
NAT

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr WEST:
through Mr. Fenton

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr YATES:
through Mr. Makin

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HILL:
CP

Mr MARR:
NAT

Mr HILL:
CP

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
NAT

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
NAT

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · Echuca · CP