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House of Representatives
19 August 1925

9^th Parliament · 3^rd Session

NAVIGATION BILL
COMMONWEALTH BANK (RURAL CREDITS) BILL
DEATH OF RIGHT HON. W. MASSEY, P.C
QUESTION
- CANBERRA
QUESTION
- SEARCH FOR OIL
QUESTION
- OLD-AGE AND INVALID PENSIONS
QUESTION
- NORTHERN TERRITORY
QUESTION
- SHIPPING AGREEMENT
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH BANK
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIA HOUSE,LONDON
QUESTION
- TRANSFERRED TAXATION OFFICERS
QUESTION
- SEAPLANE CARRIER
QUESTION
- OIL EXPLORATION IN PAPUA
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE EXAMINATION
QUESTION
- WIRE AND WIRE NETTING
QUESTION
- REPATRIATION
QUESTION
- TRADE COMMISSIONER IN AMERICA
QUESTION
- ENTERTAINMENTS TAX
PAPERS
QUESTION
- TARIFF BOARD’S REPORT ON AGRICULTURAL IMPLEMENTS
APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL
RAILWAYS BILL
- Second Reading
- Third Reading

Mr. Speaker (Rt. Hon. W. A. Watt) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 1508

NAVIGATION BILL

Assent, after reservation, reported.

page 1508

COMMONWEALTH BANK (RURAL CREDITS) BILL

Message recommending appropriation reported .

page 1508

DEATH OF RIGHT HON. W. MASSEY, P.C

Mr SPEAKER (Rt Hon W A Watt:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

– The following letter from the widow of the late Right Honorable William Massey, P.C., formerly Prime Minister of New Zealand, has been received, addressed to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives: - “ Ariki-Toa,” 260 Tinakori-road,

Wellington, 7th August, 1925.

Dear Sirs,

I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 14th July, forwarding a bound copy and other copies of resolutions and speeches delivered in both Houses of Parlia ment of the Commonwealth of Australia relating to the death of myhusband, the late Prime Minister of New Zealand.

Will you please accept and convey to members of both Houses my family’s and my own sincere and heartfelt thanks for the very kind sympathy and condolence extended to us in our great sorrow, and also an assuranceof our very deep appreciation of the resolutions agreed to and the tributes paid to Mr. Massey’s services.

Yours sincerely,

A. Massey.

page 1508

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Railway to the Coast - Alleged Sly Grog Selling.

Sir AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, in view of the proposed early removal of this Parliament to its eternal home at Canberra, and the early occupation of the permanent capital of the Commonwealth, if he will make inquiries, and advise as to the steps which are to he taken to open up the promised railway from a point on the railway near Yass, through Canberra, to the sea?

Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

-I shall bring the honorable gentleman’s question under the notice of the Minister for Home and Territories.

Mr THOMPSON:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to refer to a matter affecting Canberra, and, perhaps, on that account, the question I desire to askshould be addressed to the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories; but as the matter with which it deals affects the good name of the Commonwealth, I think it should be brought directly under the notice of the Prime Minister. To explain my question, I propose to read a very short paragraph which appeared yesterday in the Sydney Sun. It is headed, “ Is Canberra dry - Baptist. Congress asks - Is sly grog sold?” and is dated from Adelaide. It reads -

Delegates to the Baptist Congress to-day suggested that Canberra is a happy hunting ground forsly grog sellers.

In urging that the Federal Government should keep Canberra dry, the Rev. Escourt Hughes said that sly grog selling was going on vigorously. He added that the New South Wales police were not concerned with the Fede ral Territory, and the Federal Government had no power to appoint police.

I ask the Prime Minister whether he will have these allegations investigated with a view to seeing whether they have any foundation in fact?

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

– I shall have the statements investigated. On the evidence we have now I think there is no justification for them.

page 1509

QUESTION

SEARCH FOR OIL

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– Has the Prime Minister noticed a statement attributed to Professor Sir Edgeworth David, made when that eminent geologist was recently being farewelled in Sydney, to the effect that there is great possibility of oil being found in Papua and the mandated territory ofNew Guinea? If so, will he again take into consideration the advisability of subsidizing drilling operations in the mandated territory of New Guinea, seeing that operations in Papua have already been subsidized through the Anglo-Persian Oil Company ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The honorable member’s suggestion will receive consideration.

Mr FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– In view of the change of the Government’s policy regarding the encouragement of boring for oil in Australia, will the Prime Minister take into favorable consideration the case of a company that has spent about £70,000 in trying to find oil? During its operations it has bored 15,000 feet in different bores. I believe that it is now very near to success.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! The honorable member must not make a speech.

Mr FOSTER:

– I cannot ask the Minister to consider the matter unless I give him reasons for my request. This company has bored the last few thousand feet in consequence of the Government’s offer of £50,000 as a reward for finding oil.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I trust that the honorable member will not endeavour to make a speech.

Mr FOSTER:

– I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me so much latitude. Will the Prime Minister consider such a case as this upon its merits?

Mr BRUCE:

– The Government’s policy is to subsidize boringon a £1 for £1basis if a responsible authority has furnished a report that the locality is one in which there is a reasonable prospect of oil being found. The Government is quite definite that it will not assist private attempts to find oil in localities which have not been favorably reported upon by a responsible authority.

page 1509

QUESTION

OLD-AGE AND INVALID PENSIONS

Mr YATES:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I presume that the Treasurer is cognizant of the fact that old-age. and invalid pensioners are at present being asked to answer, upon forms supplied, practically the whole of the questions which these pensioners were originally asked to answer. Will the honorable gentleman make some place available at which pensioners can answer these questions, and have the forms signed by some one in authority? At the present time the Labour offices in South Australia are inundated with work of this kind. Unfortunately, many of the old people do not understand the questions.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member is making a statement. He must ask a question.

Mr YATES:

– I ask the Treasurer whether he will make officers available to attend to the filling up and signing of the necessary documents ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– I shall have inquiries made as to the exact method adopted, and later on I shall make a statement on the subject to the House.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Who was the Manager of the Commonwealth Bank in London, and how long was he in that position?
What were the reasons that caused his being asked to return to Australia?
Has he retired; and, if so, for what reason ?
What was his salary and his age when ho retired?
Has any sum of money been paid to him for compensation or other cause; and, if so, how much?
Who is his successor, and what are his salary and the terms of his engagement?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– The Commonwealth Bank has been asked to supply the information desired.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Is it correct as reported that he will recommendMr. J.R. Collins as the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank on the expiry of the temporary appointment of the Acting Governor ?
Will he state the position?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– It is not the practice to comment upon reports such as that referred to.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Has he had his attention drawn to the cables of the 7th August, which state that the Bank of England had reduced the rate of discount to 4½ per cent.?
In order to assist the primary producers and business circles in Australia, will he request the Commonwealth Bank to reduce its interest upon advances to 5½ per cent.?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes.
The rate of interest to be charged by the Commonwealth Bank must be determined solely by the board of directors. The Government has no power to interfere in the matter, and the fact that the rate has recently been reduced from 7 to6½ per cent. is evidence of the board’s readiness to make reductions when conditions justify that course.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Has he seen the serious statement in the press that £250 in notes have been seized from Chinese by Constables Wagener and Newland?
Is the statement by the police accurate, that records of the numbers of the notes have not been kept by the Commonwealth Bank; if so, who was the Governor of the Bank at the time such noteswere supposed to have been burnt?
In view of the seriousness of an accurate note register apparently not being kept for cancelled notes, will he see that an up-to-date system of note-cancellation is installed in the Commonwealth Bank ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes. 2 and 3. The Commonwealth Bank has been asked for a report.

page 1510

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA HOUSE,LONDON

Mr FORDE:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

How many employees (a) male, and (b) female, are on the staff of Australia House, London?
How many of them are (a) Australians, (b) English?
How long have the senior officers in charge of Departments been in England?
Is there any system in operation for the exchange of officers between the Commonwealth Public Service and Australia House, London, with a view to having in London Australians who are thoroughly conversant with their native country?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

High Commissioners Office - Males 90, females 121; Migration Branch - Males 40, females5.
High Commissioner’sOffice - Males (Australian) 40, (English) 50; females (Australian) 3 (English), 118, Migration Branch -Males (Australian) 22, (English) 18; females (Australian) 1, (English) 44. In this connexion it might be mentioned that with the exception of the Supply Branch, for which English knowledge is essential, there are only eight officers in receipt of salaries in excess of £300 per annum who are not Australians.
Official secretary commenced duty in London, March, 1921; assistant secretary commenced duty in London, April, 1919; chief clerk commenced duty in London, September, 1922; sub-accountant commenced duty in London, June, 1922; commercial and intelligence officer commenced duty in London, August, 1912; Customs representative commenced duty in London, July, 1925; public trustee commenced duty in London, JulyAugust, 1919; pensions officer commenced duty in London, September, 1922; audit officer commenced duty in London, December, 1924; military representatives commenced duty in London, January, 1925; veterinary officer commenced duty in London, February, 1924; air liaison officer commenced duty in London, April, 1924; deputy director of migration commenced duty in London, August, 1924.
Under an exchange system officers holding” key “ positionsare exchanged with officers from Australia every three years, or as early as possible after the expiry of that period.

page 1511

QUESTION

TRANSFERRED TAXATION OFFICERS

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Is it a fact that there is considerable dissatisfaction amongst the transferred federal officers in the state Taxation Department of New South Wales?
Will he say who is responsible for seeing to the equitable working of the agreement between the Commonwealth and that State?
Would he consent to a request made by transferred officers for the granting of an inquiry into the working of the agreement? 4.Will he furnish a copy of the original draft agreement as submitted to the New South Wales Crown Solicitor before the agreement now in force was adopted?
Does he propose to carry out the promise made by him that officers transferred to the state would bo given twelve months to make up their minds to retire under section 5 of the Income Tax Collection Act, vide Hansard, page 3641, of the 24th August, 1923, and allow those officers who applied within the stated time to retire?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Complaints have been made from time to time, but it is not thought that there is now any reasonable ground for dissatisfaction.
The Commonwealth Commissioner of Taxation is responsible for seeing to the satisfactory working of the agreement, but the agreement definitely provides that the officers shall be subject to laws of the state Public Service.
I am not aware of any ground for such an inquiry.
As the original draft agreement is of no effect, it is not considered that any useful purpose would bo served by furnishing a copy of it.
The promise, as stated by the honorable member, does not fully represent the position, inasmuch as such promise was qualified by the statement that “ if his office is filled by an officer of the Taxation Branch, he will receive compensation.” In practice, an officer of the Taxation Department was not allowed to retire on compensation if he could be placed elsewhere in the Commonwealth Public Service.

page 1511

QUESTION

SEAPLANE CARRIER

Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

What is the present position in regard to the matter of building a seaplane carrier at Cockatoo Island, and is he in a position to state how soon it will be possible to commence the work?
In view of the considerable number of men awaiting resumption of shipbuilding operations at Cockatoo Island, will he endeavour to have the matter expedited?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– Certain data with respect to the seaplane carrier have been received by the Australian Commonwealth Shipping Board as a result of arrangements made by the Defence Department with the Admiralty. This has enabled material to be ordered, and the construction of the vessel will be commenced when sufficient material has been accumulated. Every effort has been and will continue to be made with a view to thecommencement of the construction of the vessel at the earliest possible date.

page 1511

QUESTION

OIL EXPLORATION IN PAPUA

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

Will he supply information with regard to the progress of oil exploration in Papua by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, and the progress of the boring operations at Popo?

Mr MARR:
NAT

– Monthly reports on the operations of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company are laid upon the table of the House, the latest report being for the month of June, 1925. Later telegraphic reports regarding the progress of boring at bore No. 3, Popo, intimate that on the 8th July the tools became buried by cavings, at a depth of 2,375 feet. Attempts to recover the tools, and efforts to side-track them, failed. The hole was, therefore, filled up to 2,240 feet with rock and cement balls, and is now being redrilled.

page 1512

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE EXAMINATION

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

With reference to the successful candidates at examination 1,090 of 1922 for appointment to the clerical division of the Public Service - (a.) How many successful candidates have been so appointed?

Why have not all the successful candidates been appointed?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Ninety-nine.
Because candidates can only be appointed as vacancies occur which cannot be filled from personnel already in the Service.

page 1512

QUESTION

WIRE AND WIRE NETTING

Manufacture in Australia - Restraint of Trade-Federal Loan to States.

Mr GREGORY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

What is the average number of workmen employed in the manufacture of wire and wire netting in Australia?
What is the average yearly amount paid in wages to workmen employed wholly in the manufacture of wire and wire netting in Australia ?
Is it a fact that the amount paid to the Australian manufacturers as a bonus for the making of wire and wire netting is considerably in excess of the total amount paid in wagesto those wholly employed in their manufacture?

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The information is being obtained.

Mr GREGORY:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Has the Tariff Board made any investigation in regard to the reported restraint of trade by the manufacturers of wire and wire netting; if not, why not?
Has his attention been drawn tothe reported refusal by Lysaghts Ltd., of New South Wales, to supply F. W. Williams & Co., of Sydney, with galvanized iron?
Will he refrain from imposing dumping and other duties on goods where it is undoubtedly evident that the manufacturer refuses to supply firms who are not members of a vendor combine?

Mr PRATTEN:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

No; no public investigation has been made, as no request for such an inquiry has been received by the board.
Yes.
Full inquiry is now being made into this matter, and future action must depend upon the result of such inquiry.

Mr GREGORY:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

In view of the very heavy losses now being sustained by new settlers in Western Australia, many of whom are repatriated soldiers, owing to the ravages of rabbits on growing crops, will he arrange to make available for the Western Australian Government, at the very earliest possible date, a portion of the proposed federal loan for the purchase of wire netting?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The legislation authorizing advances to the states for the purpose of erecting vermin-proof fences foreshadowed in the budget will be introduced as early as possible, so as to enable advances to be made to landholders at the earliest possible date.

page 1512

QUESTION

REPATRIATION

Artificial Limbs - Incapacitated exSoldiers.

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

When does he expect that artificial limbs made from duralumin will be available at the various Commonwealth artificial limb factories ?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

-It is anticipated that a commencement will be made with the issue of a light metal (duralumin) limb with a wooden foot and socket (bucket) to above knee amputees early in the new calendar year.

Mr YATES:

asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

In regard to those incapacitated ex-soldiers who are granted pittance pensions and told they are capable of performing light jobs, is it the intention of the department to provide the light jobs ; if not, will the Minister state where such light jobs are to be secured?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:

– The existing method of assessing war pensions is based on the degree of disability due to war service. If an ex-soldier is so incapacitated as a result of his war service as to be capable only of undertaking light employment, his pension is assessed accordingly, and is equal to a substantial percentage of the full ordinary rate of pension provided under the act for total incapacity as a result of war service. Further, in the case of an ex-soldier who is 65 per cent. or more incapacitated, provision is made for the payment of a living allowance up to 20s. per week, in addition to pension, where the incapacity is of such a nature as to preclude him from engaging in regular employment or from earning a living wage. It may be pointed out that an important consideration in all cases is that the rate of pension as assessed continues over the whole period for which it is assessed, irrespective of the pensioner’s earnings, and may, therefore, be regarded as to that extent making up to him for time lost on account of his war disability. It is not possible for the Repatriation Department to ensure light employment for every pensioner described as fit for such employment; assistance in this direction is always given, but the securing of employment rests with the individual to a very great extent. The department has also subsidized the Returned Soldiers’ League, which desired to take a share in obtaining employment for the unemployed ex-soldiers.

page 1513

QUESTION

TRADE COMMISSIONER IN AMERICA

Mr YATES:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

What is the increase in the amount of trade between Australia and America for each year since the appointment of the Trade Commissioner to America?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– It is impossible to state what is the actual increase in the amount of trade with the United States of America consequent on the appointment of a Commissioner for Australia in that country. The following figures show the variations of trade with the United States of America for all years since the ap pointment of the first commissioner in 1918 : -

In this connexion it might be pointed out that the functions of the Commissioner for Australia in the United States of America in addition to the development of trade relations between the United States of America and Australia cover all matters relating to the Commonwealth Government’s interests in America, and to act for and on behalf of the Commonwealth in all such matters as he might be requested.

page 1513

QUESTION

ENTERTAINMENTS TAX

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– On the 10th July, the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson) asked the following question: -

What is the approximate amount collected during the last financial year, under the entertainments tax, on prices for admission as follows: - On1s.tickets, for (a) pictures, (b) dancing, and (c) all other entertainments, together with the same information relating to 1s.6d. tickets?

I then replied that the information was being obtained. It has now been furnished by the Commissioner of Taxation, and is as follows: -

The statistics available do not enable the separation of the figures relating to dancing and skating respectively to be made.

page 1513

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Petroleum - Report of Investigations made in New South Wales by Arthur Wade, D.Sc. (London), &c.

Canned Fruit Bounty Act - Return for 1924-25.

Ironand Steel Products Bounty Act -

Return for 1924-25.

Statement setting out particulars relating to approval given for the use of imported materials in the manufacture of products upon which bounty may be paid.

Lands Acquisition Act- Land acquired at Nyngan, New South Wales- For Defence purposes.

New. Guinea Act - Ordinances of 1925 -

No.. 20- Supply (No. 1) 1925-26.

No. 21 - Laws Repeal and Adopting (No. 2).

No. 22- Lands Registration (No. 2).

No. 23- Land (No. 2).

No. 24 - Interpretation and Amendments Incorporation.

No. 25- Land (No. 3).

No. 26 - Administrator’s Powers.

No. 27 - Sanitation.

No. 28- Pounds.

No. 29- Sale of Bread.

No. 30- Dog.

No. 31 - Slaughtering.

No. 32- Sale of Meat.

No. 33- Venereal Diseases.

Public Service Act -

Appointment of D. A. Tate, Department of Health.

Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1925, Nos. 130, 135.

Quarantine Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1925, No. 134.

Shale Oil Bounty Act- Return for 1924-25.

Sulphur Bounty Act- Return for 1924-25.

Wine Export Bounty Act- Return for 1924-25.

Customs Act and Commerce (Trade Descriptions) Act- Regulations Amended- Statutory Rules 1925, No. 83.

Defence Act- Regulations Amended- Statutory Rules 1925, No. 132.

Distillation Act - Regulations AmendedStatutory Rules 1925, No. 111.

Naval Defence Act- Regulations AmendedStatutory Rules 1925, No. 133.

Navigation Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1925, Nos. 73, 80, 86, 87, 97.

Spirits Act- Regulations Amended- Statutory Rules 1925, No. 88.

page 1514

QUESTION

TARIFF BOARD’S REPORT ON AGRICULTURAL IMPLEMENTS

Mr PRATTEN:
NAT

– At the request of the Tariff Board I layon the table a revised copy of its report on agricultural implements, in substitution for that forwarded to me by the board on the 24th June last, and tabled and ordered by the House, on the 14th July, to be printed. The board advises me that amendments to the original report were found necessary, because of certain deductions having been drawn from the figures in the table published on page 51. There were also in the original report certain typographical errors which have since been rectified. I move -

That the report be printed.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

– The manufacture of machine guns has been commenced there-

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– If the expenditure is in connexion with the installation of machinery for the manufacture of machine guns I have no objection to it, but I should like the Minister to give us some explanation.

Mr COLEMAN:
Reid

.- I notice that a portion of the .military stores given by the Imperial Government to Australia .has been disposed of. In answer to a question some time ago the Minister informed me that there was a considerable quantity of military equipment at Liverpool, and admitted that it was deteriorating. I now ask him whether it is proposed to dispose of further quantities of this equipment, as I understand that in addition to having deteriorated, a large portion of it is obsolete.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– We are asked to pass in connexion with division No. 1, the expenditure of £136,803. Of this amount the sum of £12,000 is set down for naval establishments - machinery and plant. In what naval establishments is this machinery to be installed, and why is it required ? Another contemplated expenditure is £117.803 for reserves of stores, including ammunition, ordnance, torpedo stores, and coal and oil fuel. We should have some particulars of this amount, and should know whether the material is to be imported or made in Australia, and whether it is required for the Flinders Naval Base, Cockatoo Island, or Garden Island. Because of the action of the Government in relation to the construction of two cruisers I am a little suspicious regarding naval expenditure. The amount here is certainly less than for the cruisers, but the same principle is involved. If this expenditure is passed to-nigh t, the naval officers will tomorrow be able to commence spending the money. Where is it to be expended, and for what purpose? Much of the material may come from Germany. I do not ask for the dotting of every “ i,” and the crossing of every “ t,” but unless prevented by the “gag” or some other Unjust system, I shall not agree to thu passing of large sums for naval or military purposes unless I know the destination of the money and the reason for its expenditure. My request is a simple one : the information; which I desire should be made available to the committee. 1 am aware that honorable members opposite are prepared to swallow these estimates holus bolus. If the Minister will give the committee some information with regard to the larger items, I shall have no objection to letting the first, division of these estimates go through.

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for .Defence · Calare · NAT

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
CalareMinister for Defence · NAT

.- The value of equipment received from the British Government was, as the honorable member has said, £1,000,000. It included aeroplanes, motor vehicles, and other equipment. Much of this equipment is being reconditioned in Australian factories. Last year a large number of aeroplanes were reconditioned at a cost of about £450 each. Motor vehicles required as a war reserve cannot be kept in use. A certain number must be held in readiness for service in case of emergency. A number of Leyland lorries are being used by the Postmaster-General’s Department.

Mr.Fenton. - Private motor wagons could be commandeered in war time if needed.

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:

– In a war a large number of makes of vehicles cannot be used. What is needed is cars of two or three efficient types. Cars of many types were sent to France, but many of them soon became useless, because there were no spare parts for them, and no machinery with which to repair them. The object of pushing on with the works at Laverton is to protect the stores to which the honorable member has referred. Unfortunately, the buildings at Spotswood were not rainproof, and if the Government had not decided to build a place at Laverton, much material would now be lying in the open, because the sheds at Spotswood were required by the Railway Department for its own use.

Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES:
Boothby

– Last year under this heading I made the following remarks: -

There is an amount of £15,263 set down for the construction of drill-halls, barracks, &c. Will the Minister for Defence tell me whether this item includes an amount for improved drainage facilities at Keswick Barracks? When the barracks were constructed years ago insufficient drainage facilities were provided. I and other honorable members have frequently brought this matter under the notice of the Minister. After a heavy fall of rain the drains are not able to carry off the water which is banked up, and floods neighbouring streets, in one of which are a number of soldiers’ homes.

-I should like the Minister to give the committee some information about the item, “ Machinery and plant for manufacture of munitions not now produced in Australia - towards cost, £51,523.”

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
CalareMinister for Defence · NAT

– The vote for the Munitions Supply Branch includes expenditure of a capital nature which is a charge to revenue, and is under the control of the Department of Defence. The sum of £51,523 is for the purchase of machinery for the manufacture of tools and gauges for shop equipment, cranes, boilers, furnaces, and electrical plant for factories for high explosives and filling; cartridge cases and fuses; guns, carriages, and shells; and machine guns and pistols. The total estimated cost of the programme is £452,350.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Trade and Customs, £6,160, agreed to.

Department of Health.

Proposed vote, £14,180.

Mr. FENTON (Maribyrnong) [4.581 - The heading for this division is “ Department of Health,” and the subheading is, ‘ ‘ “Under control of Department of Works and Railways.” For alterations and additions to new buildings, the vote in 1924-5 was £66,487, but the expenditure was only £10,139, which was approximately one-sixth of the vote. For this year there is a re- vote of £3,320, and a new vote of £10,860, totalling £14,180. I presume that these votes are for the purpose of promoting the health of the people, and I should like the Minister to give the committee some further information about them.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- Under the item £860, for new services, I direct the attention of the committee to the urgent need for provision for the establishment of a laboratory in which scientific investigations may be carried on for the treatment of tuberculosis. I regard this as a most important matter. It is well known that that dreaded disease is increasing throughout the world. I am frequently in receipt of letters from individuals in sanatoriums asking if anything is being done to obtain supplies of the Spahlinger serum and vaccines. Unfortunately, I have to reply in the negative. The subject is of such vital importance that it should be discussed at the earliest opportunity, and the Minister in charge of the department (Sir Neville Howse) should be impressed with the urgency of the public demand for action in the direction indicated. It will be remembered that, when the Minister returned from Geneva over twelve months ago, he reported to the House that he could not recommend the Government to take any action in connexion with the Spahlinger treatment. Since then I have had the privilege of meeting Mr. Spahlinger at Geneva, and I discussed this subject with him at some length. At the outset I should like to say that, not being professionally qualified to do so, it is not my intention to offer any opinion as to the efficacy of the treatment. Unfortunately, whilst I was at Geneva my time was so fully occupied that I had not an opportunity to visit Mr. Spahlinger^ sanatorium, but I met a number of patients who had been under his treat ment. A young man, named Mr. Lowe, was one. He informed me that, prior to leaving Australia, he had spent five months in a sanatorium at Wentworth, six months at the Waterfall Sanatorium, New South Wales, and then, following the advice of his doctor, he lived for several months in a tent on the mountains. As he was becoming steadily worse he decided to go to Geneva for treatment by Mr. Spahlinger, and when I saw him five months later he appeared to have been cured. He informed me that he hoped before long to be able to return to work. He was then in straitened circumstances, and I am pleased to say that the Commonwealth Government, at my request, rendered financial assistance to enable him to undergo another five months’ treatment. A photograph taken of Mr. Lowe when he left Australia shows him to be suffering severely from the disease, and a photograph taken after five months’ treatment discloses a remarkable improvement in his condition. This young man is now on his way back to Australia apparently cured. I expect to meet him in about four weeks’ time. I also met another patient, a young lady from New South Wales. She also appeared to have benefited considerably. Her mother informed me that she has been cured after twelve months’ treatment. She, too, was in a very bad state when she left Australia. On another occasion I met the High Commissioner for New Zealand (Sir James Allen) who informed me of the successful treatment of a New Zealand solicitor, an ex-soldier, who subsequent to discharge from the Army developed tuberculosis. He was so bad that his wife feared he would not live to reach Geneva. After five months’ treatment under Mr. Spahlingers supervision he was able to walk a mile to attend a luncheon given by Sir James Allen. His wife states that He is a different man now, and that she has every hope that he is permanently cured. I mention these cases as justification for my action in directing attention to the necessity for the establishment of a laboratory in which to carry on scientific investigations along the lines laid down by Mr. Spahlinger. It may be objected that, as the Governments of European countries have not become definitely associated with Mr. Spahlinger^ work, Australia should take no action.

That is a matter upon which I cannot offer an opinion. AH I can 3ay is that I conceive it to be my duty to place the facts before the Government in the hope that inquiries will be made and possibly some action taken to induce Mi’.. Spahlinger to come to Australia and establish a laboratory here for the production of the necessary serums and vaccines. So impressed was I with the remarkable results reported from the treatment, that I endeavoured to get a report from Dr. Cumpston the Director-General of Health, who happened then to be in London, I interviewed Sir Joseph Cook, the Australian High Commissioner, and asked him to request Mr. Cumpston to proceed to Geneva to confer with Mr. Spahlinger. Sir Joseph Cook promised that he would do so. Accordingly, I informed Mr. Spahlinger that Dr. Cumpston would call upon him, and requested him to give Dr. Cumpston the fullest possible information concerning his treatment. He said he would do so. I was unaware until I returned to Australia that, although Dr. Cumpston went to Geneva, he did not see Mr. Spahlinger. This information was conveyed to me in a letter from Mr. Spahlinger in February last. He informed me that he had seen Sir Joseph Cook, who had had occasion to go to Geneva in connexion with the business of the League of Nations, and had learned from him that Dr. Cumpston had been to Geneva but was unable to see him. It appears that Dr. Cumpston, upon arrival in Geneva, called at the secretariat of the League of Nations and, being unable to speak the French language, asked an official of the secretariat to telephone Mr. Spahlinger regarding an appointment. He was then informed that Mr. Spahlinger was away in the country and would not return for a few weeks. I wrote to Dr. Cumpston, stating that Mr. Spahlinger had assured me that he was at his laboratory during the whole of the time of Dr. Cumpston’s visit to Geneva, and was waiting to give him the fullest possible information about the treatment. I am not blaming Dr. Cumpston. All I say is that it is most unfortunate that the head of our Health Department was unable to meet Mr. Spahlinger.

Mr Yates:

– -How far is the laboratory from Geneva?

Mr CHARLTON:

– About a mile and a half or two miles. It is well known that Mr. Spahlinger has expended his entire private fortune of about ?80,000 on research for the cure of tuberculosis. It is also an established fact that good results have been obtained. Nevertheless, many medical men appear to be somewhat antagonistic. Being a nonprofessional man, I can offer no opinion one way or the other; I can only go by results. Three cases in which there has been a remarkable improvement, if not an absolute cure, have come under my notice. Before I resume my seat, I intend to quote the opinions of several medical authorities in support of the treatment. It is only fair that I should place them on record. The first is that of Dr. H. S. “Wansbrough Jones. It appears in the Lancet of 24th February, 1923, and is as follows: -

Hie cases now being treated, mostly discharged from sanatoria, as incurable, “ could not fail to impress the most sceptical. They themselves describe their progress as miraculous. Independent investigation in England would hu welcomed by Mr. Spahlinger, but is impossible at present as there is no supply of the complete serum. Mr. Spahlinger has given all he has, and can do no more. Much of the work has been relinquished, and unless financial help is forthcoming he will have to abandon the work.

Dr. Leonard Williams, of HarleyStreet, London, writing in the Lancet of the 3r5 March, 1923, said-

I have nothing but praise for the man, his ethical- attitude towards the medical profession, his scientific methods, his singleness of purpose, and the clinical results of his serum and vaccines. … A large number of British physicians and bacteriologists have journeyed to Geneva to examine the possible value of the treatment, and I understand each one has been deeply impressed.

James A. W. Watts, in the same issue, stated -

I am in agreement with the editor of the Lancet in speaking of the lack of funds to produce the Spahlinger remedies as a tragedy. After what I have seen of the results, I am convinced that it would be a tragedy of the first ‘magnitude for humanity if the world is to be deprived of the benefits of Spahlinger’s discoveries. I have used the serum in various forms of “ t.b.,” and have been profoundly impressed with the results. I have seen and examined many patients in London treated in 1913-4 who undoubtely owe their lives to the success of the treatment.

Dr. J. F. Mackeddie, of Melbourne, according to the Lancet of 28th April, 1923, made this statement -

I am from Australia, commissioned to investigate for the Government of Victoria. I have investigated the treatment in action at a sanatorium and have spent some wonderful days in Geneva with Dr. Spahlinger. . . . Any further evidence I feel sure will onlyconfirm me in reporting to my Government that Henry Spahlinger’s vaccine and serum treatment stands by itself and that the medical profession should lose no time in taking a definite stand in the matter.

The next authority whom I desire to quote is Dr. Wyllie, of South Australia. His remarks appeared in the Lancet of the 16th June, 1923-

Last year, having been commissioned to report on the Spahlinger treatment, I visited Geneva, and by the courtesy of Mr. Spahlinger was allowed to examine his cases under treatment and discharged cured. I was given access to the clinical and photographic records, and shown in detail the laboratory, with its many original mechanical devices, for the production of serum and vaccine on a large scale.

On returning to London I examined a further series of cases which has been treated in 1913-4.

I believe that Mr. Spahlinger has discovered a means of dealing successfully with all types of tuberculous infection in any stage.

The method of preliminary disintoxication with serum enables us to be hopeful even of the most advanced cases, and by means of subsequent vaccination relapse is effectively guarded against.

By using both human and bovine bacillary strains, the infection, whether pulmonary or non-pulmonary, may be equally successfully treated.

Of even greater significance are the possibilities prophylactically (i.e., as a preventative of the disease). It has been shown by Mr. Spahlinger that vaccination produces a powerful immunity in cattle as well as in human beings. Are we not here shown a clear road to the ultimate eradication of this scourge?

The majority of medical men appear to be still either ignorant of, or uninterested in this treatment.

Amongst the interested who are not favorably impressed are those who condemn it as a “ secret remedy,” or who say that without knowing the minute details and technique of preparation, they are unable to express an opinion on its scientific value, from a bacteriological point of view. Mr. Spahlinger makes no secret of his theories, bacteriological principles, or laboratory methods. Surely this in conjunction with the clinical evidence is sufficient; the precise formula would not help most of us in judging its efficacy. We have already had many theoretically sound, but clinically useless, methods of treatment for this disease.

The other class of critic who impatiently demands further proof is unmindful of the number and high reputations of the men who, having only used partial sera, have shown such extraordinary results.

Ihave a number of similar statements, but there is not time to read them all. The following one, however, I regard as very important. It is extracted from News of the World, London, of the 24th April, 1921 : -

A BigOffer: Importantreport Expected.

This is the position to-day. Mr. Henri Spahlinger, a Swiss bacteriologist, claims to have discovered a cure for consumption. He was induced to come to London in 1913 and 1914, and whilst here 36 or 40 patients were treated with his remedy. With considerable difficulty 20 of those patients were traced by the News of the World, and when seena couple of months ago by our representative and by medical men eighteen were found to have no active trace of consumption, and were following their ordinary daily work without difficulty. At the time we published details of a number of these cases. When they were treated in a London hospital in 1913 and 1914, they were “third-degree cases “ : that is in the last stages of that fell disease. To-day they are strong, healthy, and robust. The nineteenth patient traced was found to have been killed whilst fighting in the trenches in France, and the twentieth died of another complaint. Four of those treated served in the Army. So far, no one can be found who. having undergone the complete treatment, has not recovered.

Dr. Lardy, according to the Lancet of the 7th April, 1923, stated-

In a report during October, 1915, I made this emphatic statement - “ As long as a consumptive is living, no matter how far gone his case, he can be cured by the Spahlinger treatment.”

The report of Dr. Williams, after referring to a report presented to the Academy of Medicine in Paris, stated further -

Exhaustive clinical work in England, France, and Switzerland, has established the curative efficiency of Mr. Spahlinger’s methods. Thanks to this method, the tuberculosis cases cured and vaccinated in hospitals under my care in 1913 and 1914, and private cases, are still living and in good health. They were cases of controlled surgical tuberculosis and of advanced phthisis with bacilli in the sputum. These old patients have received no sort of anti-tubercular treatment since 1914. During the last six years they have continued at their daily occupations, and have overcome all the effects and privations of the war without relapsing. The condition of their lungs in October, 1920, is remarkably good. No trace of active tuberculosis, no cough, no expectoration. Pending a more complete and detailed communication I am impelled to-day (October, 1920) to draw attention to the scientific importance of this anti-tubercular vaccination, of which the efficiency is established in a conclusive manner over a period of more than six years.

AWest End physician, who does not wish his name to be disclosed, wrote in the following strain to The News of the World:-

I had my attention drawn to the several articles appearing in your paper respecting the Spahlinger treatment for tuberculosis. In 1913 and 1914 I treated many patients at one of the London hospitals, always with the same beneficial results. The efficacy of the vaccines is made clear when I find that all the old patients that can be traced are in excellent health, and have had no relapse during the last eight years. Only one patient has died, and his death was not due to tuberculosis.

Dr. D. T. Stephani, of Montana, says ;

For the last four years I have saved the lives of many consumptives, who owe their lives to the Spahlinger treatment. I do not know of any therapeutic means which can in any way approach it in giving such excellent and rapid results.

I have already quoted Dr. Leonard Williams, a high authority in London. In a letter dated December, 1924, to a person in New South Wales, he said -

I am very pleased to reaffirm anything I may at any time have said or written expressing confidence in Spahlinger’s methods of treating tuberculosis. I am not concerned with the negative views of others. There are some people who express negative views without taking the trouble to examine the evidence; and other whom no evidence, however overwhelming, will convince. My own experience of the treatment in the cases which I have seen and examined, both here and in Geneva, is that it is successful in a vast majority of the cases - at least80 per cent. - and that the successful results, so far as I have been able to judge, are permanent. You are welcome to make any use you please of this letter.

I have many other statements corroborating what I have already said, as well as one by Mr. Spahlinger himself. Some soldiers from New South Wales have gone to Europe to undergo treatment, but, unfortunately, Mr. Spahlinger is not in a position to treat them, because he has not sufficient serum for the purpose. For that reason he requested me to make it known throughout Australia that it was useless for patients to travel to Geneva in the hope of a cure. I shall read a further quotation from the Melbourne Herald of the 10th July last, dealing with an interview with Mr. Spahlinger in London -

London, 9th July.

Spahlinger, the Swiss inventor of a treatment for consumption, interviewed to-day said that he had now reproduced part of the serum which was wholly produced in 1912. This stock was exhausted in 1914, and reproduced again in 1918. Now seven of the 25 sera were ready.

It may not be generally known that Mr. Spahlinger had his laboratory damaged by fire, and had to commence his work afresh. Honorable members are probably aware that, even when sufficient finance is available, it takes a long time to produce his serum. Horses and other animals have to be kept for the purpose of inoculation, and a period of four years must elapse before the serum can be produced. For the reason that he is an Australian, I desire to again quote Mr. Lowe -

I wrote to M. Spahlinger as the result of reading about him,” said Lowe. “ M. Spahlinger replied stating that he had no serum available, and warning me not to go to Geneva. I had the first hemorrhage in March, 1921. I tried the Queen Victoria Sanatorium at Went worth Falls for five months, and then the Waterfall Sanatorium for a year. At the beginning of 1923 I underwent tubercle injections at a dispensary in Sydney, from which Ibenefited, but was not cured. Then I tried the Dreyer treatment, but without benefit, and decided to go to Geneva. I landed there with ?40, and have been under M. Spahlinger since June, 1924. I feel completely cured. I have no symptoms.”

Mr. Spahlinger said that Lowe was clinically cured, but that he wished to retain him until he had obtained the complete serum. I desire also to read an extract from the Melbourne Herald of the 11th July, 1925-

Spahlinger, who is slightly-built, boyishlooking, and small of stature, is genial and unaffected. He is obviously sincere and earnest in the belief of the efficacy of his cure.

He says ?125,000 would enable him to produce serum and vaccines within three years sufficient to test his method in every country.

The latest delegation of investigation of M. Spahlinger’s treatment, which has returned from Geneva, is that of the Ulster Government, headed by Dr. Trimble, the chief Belfast tuberculosis officer. The delegation describes M. Spahlinger’s isolation toxin as a revolutionary and epoch-making discovery.

Mr. Spahlinger does not propose to treat every person throughout the world who is suffering from tuberculosis, but to send to every country a supply of serum to be tested. While Australia cannot be expected to advance a large sum of money unless Mr. Spahlinger conies here, I consider that we should enter into negotiations with him to see whether he is prepared to establish a laboratory in Australia. A few thousand pounds would be a mere bagatelle if its expenditure resulted in a cure being found for this dread disease.

Sir Neville Howse:

– It would be cheap.

Mr CHARLTON:

– It has been said that Mr. Spahlinger refused an offer from the British Government; but he has indignantly denied that the British Government has offered him. anything. I did not visit Europe with any intention of seeing Mr. Spahlinger, and should probably not have thought of him had it not been for Mr. Lowe, who recounted to me his experience of the Spahlinger treatment. He told me that he had not been charged one penny by Mr. Spahlinger, notwithstanding that he knew that Mr. Spahlinger was not in a financial position to do the work for nothing. When I heard that, I naturally was interested, and anxious to see the discoverer of this treatment. I, therefore, invited him to lunch with me. Having conversed with him on several occasions, I formed the opinion that he is a man who is entirely engrossed in his work. That, I understand, is true also of his wife. Every day both spend their time in the laboratory. It is well known that they have experienced great financial difficulty. Some people in London are talking of going to their rescue, but such assistance can only be temporary. Mr. Spahlinger is so wrapt up in his discovery that he has refused large sums of money to commercialize it. He informed me that Rothschild had offered him £250,000 to .commercialize it, and share the profits with him 50-50. He declined the offer, because he held that whatever might be the outcome of his discovery, it should be used for the benefit of suffering humanity, and should not be commercialized. Many leading men from different countries to whom I spoke, said to me, “What are you to do with a man like that 1 He is no business man.” The same thing may be said of many of the greatest geniuses the world has known. They were so wrapt up in the matters with which they were concerned that they had no time for commercialism and the business side of their discoveries. There is very much to be said for Spahlinger in this regard. [Extension of time granted.) I asked him what he would be prepared to do if the Commonwealth Government invited him to come .to Australia. His reply was, “My object, in life is to complete my work. If I can complete my work, that is to say, provide the complete serums and vaccines that are necessary, I shall be prepared to consider an offer.” I asked him upon what conditions he would be prepared to come to Australia, and he said that, he had never made any conditions with anybody. I told him that he was considered by many people to be a very hard man to deal with, because he would not make conditions. He said “ I do not want to make conditions, but if I were to go to Australia I should certainly expect- compensation for my discovery.” Every one would concede that. Spahlinger has spent his own fortune in his researches. The only condition he would lay down in the event of the Government taking up his discovery would be that it should be supplied to the poor people free of charge. He says that there would be no need for them to go into public hospitals to receive his treatment, because they could be treated in their own homes by local doctors. He said that the Government, if it felt inclined, might make a charge foi- the treatment to wealthy people, or people in a position to pay, to recoup its expenditure, but he would have nothing to do with it. All that he desires is that the efficacy of his remedy shall be proved. I am satisfied about the matter myself. I have quoted many cases, and I might quote much more on the subject from Dr. Stephani, who has a sanitarium, and he claims that 90 per cent, of his patients have been reported cured of their disease by the Spahlinger treatment. I have mentioned the matter several times since I returned to Australia, and I have come to the conclusion that the time has arrived when I should publicly state what I know concerning it. Every mail brings me letters from people here who are suffering from tuberculosis, and are asking that Spahlinger’s serum should be. made available to them. I say that it is a thousand pities that no effort worth speaking about is being made in any part of the world to assist this man, who appears to be on the right track of a remedy for this dread disease. No one would give up the whole of his time tothe investigation of . a scientific method for’ treating this disease unless he felt that he was on the right track. Spahlinger has practically given his life to the business. I want to let honorable members know what sort of a man he is, and I may inform them that when I asked him whether he would remain in Australia if the Government succeeded in inducing him to visit this country he said, “ No. I might consider going to Australia, or sending my leading man there, but so far as I am concerned there are years of life ahead of me yet, and when I have completed this job I intend to follow up other branches of research work.” The man’s life’s work is the investigation of diseases to which human flesh is heir, in the endeavour to discover a cure for them. Whether the treatment finally proved to be successful or not, there would practically be nothing lost in rendering him financial assistance. The British dominions might, together with Great Britain, send him £100,000 or £200,000 to assist in his work. If it proves successful no one can estimate in pounds, shillings and pence what it will mean to save the lives of thousands of people throughout the world. If Spahlinger could establish a laboratory here, no one would say that the cost would be money lost if he succeeded in making the serums and vaccines that would cure the disease. I offer no professional opinion, it would be wrong for me to do so, but I say that the people to whom I have spoken, and who had suffered from the disease, claimed to have been cured by Spahlinger’s treatment. According to doctors who examined them they have been cured. In one case that came under my notice three doctors made a most careful examination of a certain young lady and stated that she was absolutely cured of the disease. The same is said of Lowe, who will be here in a few weeks, and I hope if he comes to Melbourne to be able to introduce him to some honorable members. The same claim is made in the case of a New Zealand solicitor. I have personally met these people. I have very much more evidence that I could submit dealing with many cases which have been treated with satisfactory results. The time has arrived when something should be done to help this man. He is not looking for a fortune for himself. He has spent his fortune in his researches. In an effort to relieve those who are suffering the leastwe can do is to give him a helping hand. I may have no right to talk of his financial position, but a statement appeared recently in the newspapers to the effect that he had executed a mortgage for £15,000, which some bookmakers and others in England propose to meet for him. I did not visit his laboratory, but my secretary did, and he informed me that it is a large establishment, and it must be costly to keep it going. In endeavouring to complete his investigation Spahlinger is always hampered by a lack of cash, and yet is so humane that every one who goes to him is treated without any charge at all. He is not endeavouring to make money out of his discovery.

Mr Lacey:

– He might have done so if he wished.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Yes. An agreement offering him £15,000 was put before him for signature, to say nothing of the offer made by Rothschild. I saw a statement to the effect that some Germans had offered him £250,000, and that he would have nothing to do with their offer. It may be said that he has a “kink,” but for some reason or another. I think the man is not being given . a fair chance. The same objections are urged in the case of Spahlinger that were urged in the case of Pasteur. If honorable members will carry their minds back to the time when Pasteur made his discovery of an anti-toxin for diphtheria they will remember the objections urged against him. What was the result of Pasteur’s discovery? I believe it is a fact, and the Minister will know better than I do, that since Pasteur’s discovery of his anti-toxin for diphtheria very few cases of that disease end fatally if the anti-toxin is used in time.

Sir Neville Howse:

– None.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I lost a boy about twelve months before Pasteur’s antitoxin was in general use. I know that he was hampered and unable to make a move because of financial difficulties and the objections urged against him. Similar difficulties have overtaken Spahlinger, who is devoting the whole of his time to the relief of suffering humanity. He is entitled tosome consideration from the governments of different countries. After all, it is the people whose health wc are anxious to safeguard that he is endeavouring to assist. It is said that Spahlinger is not a doctor. From what I could gather he gave some time in his earlier years to study for the medical profession, and after going, through the course a certain distance he gave it up. He subsequently passed as a barrister, but did not go on with that profession. Research work is his natural bent. He is so certain of the efficacy of his remedy that he is prepared to lose everything he has in life to bring his researches to a successful conclusion. When I saw him it was apparent that he was in’ a very depressed condition because of his financial position. When I was leaving by the train he said, “I am glad I met you; you have done much to raise my spirits. I was practically down when you came here, but my conversation with you has encouraged me to go on with my work/’ His good wife said the same thing to me. I mention the matter only to indicate the position in which the man is placed. Since I saw him he has been in ill-health, and went to the mountains to recuperate. He is now in London; and people there are endeavouring to find money to assist him. His anxiety is caused by his failure to finalize his work owing to lack of funds. The Government should investigate this matter, and should find out under what circumstances Spahlinger would be prepared to come here. If. it is not prepared to do this, it might communicate with the British Government to see what might be done in the matter, especially in view of the fact that the British Government recently sent a number of doctors to Geneva, who reported favorably upon Spahlinger’s treatment. Almost every one who goes to Geneva, and looks carefully into the matter, reports favorably on the treatment. I think that the British Government and the Governments of the dominions might take joint action to assist this man. It is a matter which concerns the people everywhere. We should not refuse to assist because Spahlinger resides in Switzerland and not in our own country. By assisting him we shall be doing something which will be of as much value to the people of Australia as to the people of Switzerland, because if Spahlinger’s treatment is found to be satisfactory it will be of benefit to humanity in every part of the world. I attach more importance to my own observation than to anything dealing with the subject which has appeared on paper. I did not ask to see the three cases that were brought under my notice, but my observation of them has satisfied me that there is something in Spahlinger’s treatment. I ask the Government to get into touch with him, either directly or through the British Government, to see if they can assist him, and in what way. They should also ask him whether he is prepared to establish a laboratory in Australia for the purpose of treating people in this country who are suffering from tuberculosis.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

.- I agree with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) that the Federal Government should take some definite action to assist in reaching finality regarding npi only Mr. Spahlinger himself, but also his treatment. The whole procedure has been unsatisfactory, and we seem to be playing a game of hide and seek. The only person who is clear on the subject is Mr. Spahlinger himself. When the present Minister for Defence (Sir Neville Howse) returned from his visit to Geneva, he reported on the Spahlinger treatment. His difficulty was. and it seemed to be the difficulty of many of the medical profession in Britain and elsewhere, that Mr. Spahlinger would not divulge his method of treatment. I have with me a book compiled by the T.B. Association, containing, in addition to plates and photographs of wonderful value, a report made by a medical committee that visited Mr. Spahlinger’s sanatorium in Switzerland. That publication, dealing with the advisability of divulging the formula to the public, states -

Most of the medical experts who have visited Spahlinger have advised that it would be unwise to publish these formulae until sufficient supplies of the remedies can be produced for numerous demonstrations in all countries. Their advice was based on the fact that the toxins and antigens are very difficult to produce. If all the technical details were published immediately, people might put on the market hundreds of thousands of doses of sera and vaccines too hurriedly prepared, and thus ineffective. This might discredit the whole treatment, the future benefit of which would then be lost to humanity.

The committee came to the same conclusion as did Spahlinger himself, who insisted that before making the process public he must have sufficient supplies of serums, anti-toxins and toxins not only for test cases, but also for wholesale distribution throughout the world to test the efficacy of the cure. I shall now comment on Dr. Cumpston’s visit to Geneva, following on that of the present Minister for Defence. If I remember rightly, when the Minister made his speech on the Spahlinger treatment, he said that he was not a bacteriologist, and that it would be advantageous to send an experienced bacteriologist to Geneva to interview Mr. Spahlinger. The Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce) some time afterwards, said in reply to a question, that Dr. Cumpston, while abroad, would be asked to visit Geneva to interview Mr. Spahlinger. When Dr. Cumpston returned I asked the Prime Minister the following question : -

Was Dr. Cumpston commissioned to inquire into and report on the Spahlinger treatment for tuberculosis; if so, will the Prime Minister make the report available for members?

The Prime Minister replied - _ Dr. Cumpston was not specially commissioned to inquire into and report on the Spahlinger treatment for tuberculosis. He, however, took advantage of the opportunity during his visit to England to discuss the subject very thoroughly with the British Ministry of Health. As the result of this discussion it was apparent that there had been no new developments since the matter had been previously considered.

Before Dr. Cumpston departed the T.B. Association wrote to the Prime Minister a letter protesting against Dr. Cumpston being sent abroad to report on the Spahlinger treatment. In a letter dated 16th September the association stated -

The above Association desires to enter a most emphatic protest against the appointment of Dr. Cumpston to inquire into the Spahlinger remedy for tuberculosis.

On the 23rd September, the Secretary to the Prime Minister replied: -

I am directed to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 16th September, embodying, on behalf of the Civilian T.B. Association of New South Wales, a protest against Dr. Cumpston, Director of Health, being authorized to inquire into the Spahlinger cure for tuberculosis, and urging that an investigation of Dr. Spahlinger’s claims should be conducted by a lung specialist. The views of your Association on this matter have been noted.

There is. in that letter, no denial of the statement that Dr. Cumpston was going abroad to inquire into the Spahlinger treatment. The Government’s attitude is not consistent. Dr. Cumpston went to Geneva, but, as the Leader of the Opposition stated, he did not get into touch with Mr. Spahlinger. I have with me a letter from a man named McDonnell’, who was (receiving . treatment at Geneva at the time Dr. Cumpston is reported to have endeavoured to interview Mr. Spahlinger. McDonnell is to-day in New South Wales, and can be produced to bear ‘out the .statement I am making on his behalf. Being an official of the T.B. Association in Australia, he was naturally interested in the visit of Dr. Cumpston, and sought to interview him. He was told that Dr. Cumpston, having failed to interview Mr. Spahlinger, had left Geneva the previous day. McDonnell had daily visited Mr. Spahlinger up to that time, and to say that Mr. Spahlinger was absent from his laboratory for a fortnight is absolutely wrong. I have nothing but good to say of the medical profession generally. I have said previously in this chamber that if it had not been foi- a very good surgeon I should now be in my grave. “But I cannot understand why the British Medical Association has adopted an unsympathetic attitude towards Mr. Spahlinger. There is certainly some opposi- . tion to his treatment. We are told that we have no evidence of its efficacy. I know that one woman, a daughter of a leading physician in New South Wales, was completely cured of tuberculosis by the Spahlinger treatment. That evidence is available for the medical profession of this country, Britain, and elsewhere. Apart altogether from the case of Mr. Lowe, mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, there is from this country a man named Atkins, who was under treatment at Geneva at the same time as Mr. McDonnell. Knowing McDonnell’s unsatisfactory financial position, Atkins endeavoured to keep him under treatment for a longer period. I wrote to the Prime Minister asking for funds to continue McDonnell’s treatment, but nothing was done. Yet this Government throws away thousands of pounds on the entertainment of visitors and other things.

The Spahlinger treatment has gone beyond the experimental stage. Surely the Minister for Defence, the Treasurer, or any other qualified medical man, will not lightly brush aside the testimony of eminent doctors and bacteriologists, who are well qualified to speak on this subject. I myself have the utmost respect for the Minister for Defence, as a medical man, but I contend that his report on the Spahlinger treatment is valueless to this country. I honestly believe that he exceeded his duty when he stated that he could not recommend this Government to expend any- money on the Spahlinger treatment. He admitted that he knew nothing of the treatment, and that, not being a bacteriologist, he could not judge of its merits.

Sir Neville Howse:

– I said that I could not judge of the merits of the treatment on the evidence that was available.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– That is so. The Minister, no doubt, has all the evidence available on this subject.

Sir Neville Howse:

– I have an accumulation of evidence since 1917.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– The Minister for Defence and the Leader of the Opposition, who has just returned from abroad, will appreciate the value of the following passage which occurs in a testimony by many well-known doctors -

During the latter part of the treatment there is usually no evidence of active tuberculosis. Physical signs become quite dry. The same method has given positive results in the treatment of tuberculous glands and cases of lupus which fail to respond to the usual treatments.

To that statement the following medical men subscribed their names: -

Drs. I. Williams; E. H. Croucher, F.R.C.S.. Edin.; Dudley Kennard, F.R.C.S.: Felix Vinrace, F.R.C.S.; P. R. Shanks; H. W. W. Cowan; D. Giordani (Surgeon to the Italian Hospital) : L. E. B. Beer; E. M. Martin; A. Allport, M.R.C.S.; D. Gordon Cheyne, Bacteriologist to the North-east Counties of Scotland.

That opinion was supplemented by Dr. Mackeddie, of Melbourne, who was commissioned by the Victorian Government to inquire into the Spahlinger treatment -

Any further evidence, I feel sure, will only confirm me in reporting to my Government that Henry Spahlinger’s vaccine and serum treatment in tuberculosis stands by itself.

Dr. Rice said of one case ; “ I can only describe the improvement as miraculous.” Those medical opnions are fortified by detailed records of cases treated and permanently cured. Until recently I did not realize the dread significance of tuberculosis. The Waterfall sanatorium is situated in my electorate, and a visit to the institute is a positive torture to any person who has capacity to feel for the sufferings of others. The Grim Harvester is so constantly at work amongst the patients that if you write to an inmate who three months before was honorary secretary of some little organization of the patients, you often learn that he is dead and that another has been appointed in his stead. The sanatorium is for many only a brief stopping place on the way to the cemetery. With such evidence before us one feels that no expenditure upon any treatment that offered even possibilities of success would be too great. We can spend ?5,000,000 upon cruisers, tens of thousands of pounds upon the entertainment of a visiting fleet, and thousands of pounds in the pursuit of our own pleasures, and surely the country can afford a few hundred thousand pounds in order to test a treatment that gives some hope to thousands of sufferers. I am convinced that money expended upon the Spahlinger treatment will- not be expended in vain; but even if an outlay of ?500,000 in that direction yields no beneficial result, the Commonwealth can better afford to incur that loss than to do nothing at all. The people of Australia will, I am sure, applaud any government that will incur the expenditure necessary to give a full and complete trial to Mr. Spahlinger’s treatment .

Mr D CAMERON:
BRISBANE. QLD · NAT

– I listened with great interest to the speech made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) this afternoon. The honorable gentleman recently returned from Geneva, and I know that he would not have spoken as he did without realizing fully his responsibility to those thousands of sufferers in whom hope will be re-kindled by his remarks. In company with the present Minister for Health (Sir Neville Howse), I visited Mr. Spahlinger at his laboratory in 1923. As a layman I was impressed by his sincerity ; I felt that he was honestly convinced that he -had found a cure for the dread disease of tuberculosis. I was also struck by the magnitude of the work he was doing. His large and expensive labora- tory, with duplicate installations of water and electricity, involves a heavy and continuous outlay. I cannot help remembering^ however, that various British administrations, including that led by Mr. Ramsay MacDonald, have shown themselves to be just as anxious as we are that Mr. Spahlinger should have an opportunity to complete his work, and, as the Leader of the Opposition admitted, they are closer than we are to the scene of his experiments. I understand that recently the British Government sent a committee of doctors to Geneva to investigate the Spahlinger treatment. I believe that that committee has reported favorably. No doubt the Commonwealth Government is in communication with the British Government, and will be advised at the earliest possible date of the nature of that report. I am certain that the Commonwealth Government is not deterred by monetary considerations from taking definite action to give Australian tubercular subjects access to this treatment. If a cure for tuberculosis can be found no member of this Parliament would hesitate to vote for the expenditure of millions of pounds in order to make the treatment available to our people. But we should await the receipt of a report from the British Government. It may be prepared to take the whole responsibility, of assisting Mr. Spahlinger to continue his investigations, but I am sure that the Governments of all the oversea dominions . would readily accept a share of the financial obligations involved.

Mr COLEMAN:
Reid

– The honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. D. Cameron) has suggested that the Commonwealth should not expend money upon the Spahlinger treatment because certain British experts have not been convinced of its efficacy. Already there is a considerable body of medical opinion that is favorable to that treatment, and even if its success has not been completely proved the Commonwealth can surely afford to spend some money in assisting Mr. Sphalinger to continue his experiments. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) has suggested that the Commonwealth Government might consider the advisability of establishing a laboratory in Australia for the testing of the Spahlinger treatment. Another proposal was that the Commonwealth should subsidize Mr. Spahlinger. I suggest as a third alternative that a number of tubercular ex-soldiers should be sent to Geneva, accompanied by Australian doctors, so that the Spahlinger treatment might be tested upon them. It might be better to bring Mr. Spahlinger to Australia. ,

Sir Neville Howse:

– Even if he would come to Australia he has no serum.

Mr COLEMAN:

– I understood the Leader of the Opposition to say that. Mr. Spahlinger has quantities of serum with which he has already successfully treated many patients. Of course, the establishment of a laboratory in Australia would occupy a considerable time. Therefore, I suggest the sending of tubercular soldiers to Geneva as a quicker and more satisfactory means of testing the treatment. We should then have tie benefit of an independent Australian investigation, instead of being guided by conservative medical opinion and prejudices in certain continental countries where tuberculosis is so prevalent that it is not regarded with the same degree of alarm as it is in Australia. I understand that the Labour Government in New South Wales is considering a proposal to send a number of tubercular subjects to Mr. Spahlinger for treatment. Perhaps the Commonwealth Government could co-operate in that enterprise. Something should be done promptly, because -tuberculosis is one of the worst diseases to which Australia is subject, the deaths from it in 1923 having numbered 3,544. An important aspect of the statistics is that of the total of 3,544 persons who died from that disease, about 2,200 were between the ages of 20 and 45 years. They had reached that period of life when their economic value to the community was greatest. Australia is borrowing millions of pounds to finance immigration, and it is admitted that the settlement of migrants on the land will cost at least £1,000 per head. Assessing each of those persons who died in 1923 from tuberculosis at the same figure, the loss to the Commonwealth in that year was £3,544,000. A further consideration is that many persons are drawing invalid pensions because they are incapacitated by tuberculosis, and possibly the annual loss to the Commonwealth on that account exceeds the amount that would be required to assist Mr. Spah- linger to complete bis experiments. I recognize that there is a difference of opinion on this subject, the importance ofwhich, however, should not be minimized. Admittedly, compared with other countries, the Australian percentage of deaths is low, but it already exceeds 6 per cent. of the total deaths. Of about 56,000 deaths over 3,500 were due to tuberculosis, and a number of other deaths directly and indirectly attributable to tuberculosis are not included in these statistics. ‘ While some other disease may be the immediate cause of death, tuberculosis is often the underlying cause. I once again urge the Government to do something concrete and tangible. There are thousands of civilians and ex-soldier sufferers from the disease in the various hospitals of Australia. I hope that in health matters, and particularly for the treatment of tuberculosis, a system of collaboration with the state governments willbe devised. I recently went through the Lidcombe State Hospital, which is in my electorate, and there I found a number of sufferers in various stages of the disease. They were accommodated in an unsuitable “ hut “ - it could not be called anything else - and the “ hut “ overlooked the Bookwood Cemetery. Some of these poor sufferers said to me, “It is a cheerful prospect, is it not?” We have a national responsibility to check the spread of this disease, and this national Parliament should do something to ensure more adequate treatment of the sufferers from it, instead of leaving it entirely to the states. I know that a commission is inquiring into national health, but these things are of great urgency, and call for immediate action.

Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling

.- Before speaking of the Spahlinger method of treatment and of other health matters, I wish to express my extreme disappointment that, although we have a doctor presiding over the Health Department, the benefit to the Commonwealth has not been noticeable. I have protested from time to time about the methods employed for promoting national health. When the Department of Health was under the Minister for Customs, it was a Cinderella department.No Minister for Customs in this country can possibly give to health matters the time and individual attention that they require. In the present Minister we have a man who has occupied a high position in the medical world, but who has, in the portfolio for Defence, a task which precludes him from giving adequate attention to health matters. If national health is to be handled properly, it must be kept separate and distinct from every other government department. The portfolio of Health is more important than that of Defence, which is generally regarded as the more important; it is, in fact, more important than any other portfolio held by a Commonwealth Minister. The extraordinarily heavy mortality in Australia - I donot mean extraordinary by comparison with other countries, because the mortality rate here is much lower than in many other countries - is far too high.

Mr Coleman:

– That is due to the climate,not to the Government.

Mr BLAKELEY:

– It is due to the climate, rather than to the Government’s capacity to deal with health matters. Attempts have been made to co-ordinate the health legislation of Australia, but, up to date, the results have been disappointing. The Commonwealth Government alone is spending not less than £20,000 a year, and, in addition, is paying invalid pensions to many people who are suffering from preventable diseases. About 14 per cent. of the invalid pensions are paid to persons between the ages of sixteen and forty years, and it has been stated by the Commonwealth Director-General of Health, Dr. Cumpston, and other eminent medical men, that from 30 to 40 per cent. of the diseases on account of which pensions are paid is preventable. I have been hoping that the Commonwealth Government would take some practical steps to test the Spahlinger method of treatment, and I have, therefore, not taken up a critical attitude towards it; but, in view of the experience of my leader, and of the fact that cases are recorded in which not only benefit, but complete cures, have been obtained, I am compelled to come forward and appeal to the Government to do something tangible. Granting that there are two strong camps, for and against the method of treatment, the fact that some of the most eminent medical men of the world are on the side of Spahlinger seems to indicate that there is some value in his method. The Commonwealth Government should be prepared to spend whatever money is necessary either to help him in his laboratory., or to establish a laboratory in Australia. If it adopted the last suggestion, it could ask him to take charge of the laboratory, so that, unhampered by creditors and relieved of economic anxiety, he could pursue his researches in this country, even though they, might occupy him for five or ten years. Although it may be said that the evidence adduced to those representatives of Australia who have investigated the treatment has not convinced them, other people have been convinced, and the fact that there are distinguished medical men among those who are convinced seems to indicate that, those who are not convinced have not had the same opportunity of judging. I, in common with my colleagues, would like the Minister, in his reply, to indicate whether the Government is going to continue the “wait and see” policy, or intends to accept some of the responsibility of civilization and help Spahlinger to carry on his work. The alternative is to allow other people to accept a responsibility which we cannot lightly evade. I cannot help saying that the Health Commission is another excuse for putting off the day when the Government, together with the State Governments, must shoulder responsibility for the prevention, investigation, and cure’ of diseases. Valuable work has been done in preventing and treating venereal diseases. As the probable mortality in Australia, according to authorities which I accept as reliable, is from 5,000 to 6,000 persons a year, and. as venereal diseases are the greatest killing diseases we have in this country, a contribution by this Government of £13.000 a year to help the states is inadequate, and merely shows that successive Commonwealth administrations have not shouldered their responsibilities.

Sitting suspended from G.30 to 8 p.m.

Mr BLAKELEY:

– Because of the neglect by the Government of precautions to ensure the health of the people, the taxpayers of the Commonwealth are bearing an exceedingly heavy burden in the form of invalid pensions for persons suffering from preventable diseases. Up to the present, very little has been done. In 1922-23, we spent, on health administration, approximately- £122,000. In 1923- 24, the expenditure was £116,000, and in 1924-25, about £124,000. By far the greatest portion of this expenditure was for quarantine services instead of for investigations for cures for preventable diseases. The Tropical Institute of Medicine is costing us £5,800 a year. For the investigation of cancer, the Government is donating the paltry sum of £5,000 for the research bureau of the Sydney University. Deaths due to . cancer total over 5,000 a year, and for many years prior to their deaths sufferers from this disease, being recipients of the invalid pension, are a severe drain upon the revenue. Venereal diseases are responsible for between 5,000 and 6,000 deaths annually. Last year the sum voted for the treatment of these diseases was £15,000, and the expenditure totalled approximately £13,000. For the treatment of hookworm, Commonwealth expenditure, in round figures, is £6,000 a year. In this field of research, the Rockefeller Institute has done a splendid work in Australia and in the mandated territories. It has practically eradicated the disease’ in Australia, and it has placed the people of this country under a deep debt of gratitude to it. If the Commonwealth expenditure on the several diseases I have mentioned, bore any relation to the mortality rate, the sum expended annually would be considerably greater than it is. The infant mortality rate in Australia is a standing reflection upon our health administration. It is extraordinary that there should be so much indifference to this very grave and vital problem. In rho four years from 191S to 1922, there were no less than 41,462 deaths under the age of one year, and we have it on the hsst authority that more than 60 per cent, of those deaths were preventable. The royal commission on National Insurance stresses the importance of the work done by state clinics throughout Australia, and also emphasizes the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government in this matter. There is a vast field for research work in connexion with industrial diseases. Prominent among these, are miners’ phthisis, lead poisoning, and other diseases affecting the respiratory organs. It is true that a certain amount of work has been done already. Research laboratories have been established in a number of centres, but unfortunately, owing to political influences, certain industrial centres, where the mortality rate is high and the need most pressing, have been neglected for other centres where the mortality rate is lower and the need not so urgent. We have one such laboratory in Bendigo. Quite recently, another was established in Kalgoorlie. On several occasions I have urged the establishment of a research laboratory at Broken Hill where, owing to the dangerous nature of the miners’ avocation, the death-rate is exceedingly high; but up to the present I have been unsuccessful. I was hoping that provision would be included in this year’s Estimates for a laboratory at Broken Hill, but I have been informed by the Treasurer (Dr. Earle Page) and also by the Minister for Health (Sir Neville Howse) that nothing will be done until the report of the National ‘ Insurance Commission is presented. I do not begrudge Kalgoorlie its laboratory.^ Indeed, I think the Government should establish these laboratories in all the large industrial centres, so that research work may he carried out for the alleviation of sufferers from these preventable diseases. The royal commission referred to includes members of both ‘ Houses. It made a very careful investigation of the subject, and its first progress report was presented a few weeks ago. On page 37, in its references to medical research work, there appears the following: -

Extensive .medical research work is being carried out in other countries and as the conditions in Australia- differ appreciably from those which exist elsewhere it is very desirable that they should bc investigated. At the present time there are many diseases about which little is known for the purpose of prevention, and it is important that full investigation with respect to these should be undertaken. A certain amount of research work has already been carried out in Australia by private practitioners and in the laboratories of the Health Departments and at public hospitals, but this work should be very considerably extended, as health research should be closely associated with health administration. It is suggested that a central establishment for the investigation of preventable diseases, working in association with existing institutions, with branch establishments throughout the Commonwealth, should be instituted. Investigations should be undertaken with the object of elucidating the principal factors concerned in the spread of infectious diseases and* as to the means of arresting their spread. Although the diphtheria mortality rate has been reduced, yet there has been a very serious increase in the number of cases of ‘diphtheria ; the cancer death rate has shown a steady and serious increase for a considerable number of years; no reduction in the mortality of women during child-birth has taken place; and there has been no reduction in the mortality rate from congenital causes during the first month of life. A considerable portion of the invalidity for which Commonwealth invalid pensions are now paid is stated to result from diseases which are preventable. The ‘above are instances of the important investigations which should be undertaken under Government supervision in’ the. interest of national health.

This commission took evidence from witnesses all over Australia. It is to be hoped,’ therefore, that the Government will lake some action to give effect to its recommendations; one of which is -

That a national health scheme be instituted which will provide adequate medical treatment for the people, and which will provide the requisite machinery for the prevention of sickness and accident.

This is probably the most far-reaching recommendation that the commission has made. The responsibility is on this Parliament to establish a scheme on the lines indicated. After a number of years of study of health matters, I have come to the conclusion that if any subject for legislation is national in character, it is the health of the people. State boundaries do not prevent the spread of disease. Ultimately this a matter which must be dealt with by a central body. At present we have six state governments- administering health matters in six different ways. Such treatment of an important subject cannot result in as much benefit to the people as would the work of a central institution under the control pf the Commonwealth Government. The report of the commission states further -

That the functions and objects of the Health Department be extended in such manner as will enable provision to be made as early as possible’ for the effective supervision of adequate medical services, especially in respect to maternity treatment.

Most of the states have fallen down on the job so far as maternity cases arc concerned. Owing to the nature of the government with which Queensland has been blessed for a number of years, this matter has been dealt with seriously in that state, with the result that maternity cases receive better treatment there than in any other part of Australia. In many of the large towns, and even in some of the cities of New South Wales, there is not a maternity ward at the hospitals. Many of the operations, and much of the mortality among mothers and children, could be prevented. It is true that money has been spent in connexion with health matters, but probably 80 per cent, of it has been spent on quarantine arrangements. So far, we have merely tinkered with venereal disease, and have’ done nothing except spend about £5,000 to combat cancer. Nor has anything been done to combat tuberculosis, diphtheria, or rheumatism. While admitting the mortality and suffering that they have caused, we have left these matters; to the states. I hope that the present Minister for Health (Sir Neville Howse) will initiate a progressive policy in health matters, establish laboratories, and subsidize institutions, organizations or persons, if necessary - in this connexion I refer particularly to Mr. Spahlinger - in order that we may prevent or cure much of the preventable disease and suffering which now exists in Australia.

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Health · Calare · NAT

.- TUe Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) has placed before the House certain statements with reference to the treatment of a very prevalent disease - tuberculosis - by a gentleman named Spahlinger, who is a scientist of some renown. The honorable gentleman stressed the prevalence of this disease in Australia, as did subsequent speakers. We all recognize that tuberculosis is prevalent in Australia, yet our position in regard to it cannot be compared with that of many other countries. I have arrived at the conclusion from a careful calculation made during the last few weeks that between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000 people died last year from tuberculosis alone. Most authorities estimate that at least five times as many people are under treatment for that disease as die from it, and one American authority goes so far as to say that the number under treatment is ten times that of the number who succumb. If we accept the lowest estimate, there are 20,000,000 people now suffering from this disease. When speaking in this chamber, after my return from Geneva, I referred to the number of deaths in Australia as totalling about 3,200 in 1923. I estimated that about 15,000 of our people were then under medical treatment for this disease, and that most of them were unfit to perform their daily work. In view of those figures one has no difficulty in realizing that the disease inflicts enormous economic loss on the community. Yet, bad as is our position, it is much better than that of countries like India and China, where the economic conditions are much worse than ours. There can be no difference of opinion as to the prevalence of this disease and the immense mortality caused by it. The treatment of the disease is one above party considerations, and I believe that all honorable members so regard it. But in speaking on this subject we must be extremely careful that we do not raise in sufferers hopes that we ourselves do not share. There can be no question that tuberculosis is curable, and that its incidence is decreasing each year. Were it not so the world would soon be denuded of its population. During the last 40 or 50 years large numbers of people who suffered from tuberculosis have been cured. For twenty years I lived at Orange, a health resort some 3,000 feet above sea level, to which tubercular cases were sent, it being then believed that only at such altitudes could the disease be successfully combated. During those years I had experience of many cases of tuberculosis. Some of the patients came from the surrounding district, but most were visitors from other parts of Australia, principally the large cities. Of those affected a considerable number recovered ; indeed, it is remarkable how many sufferers do recover. The Leader of the Opposition said that he believed that this disease was spreading ; but I think he will accept my assurance, which has the backing of all the authorities on the subject, that it is definitely curable, and is decreasing.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Is it decreasing in the slums ?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:

– I have just said that the better position of Australia in regard to the disease is due to our better economic conditions. Good food and housing, and open spaces, not only assist in curing tuberculosis, but tend to prevent it.

Mr Maxwell:

– Is tuberculosis curable even when it is hereditary?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:

– It is generally agreed by members of the medical profession that tuberculosis is not hereditary.

Mr Coleman:

– May a person be predisposed to it?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:

– According to the best French and American authorities, that is doubtful, although that view is contrary to what I was taught and to what I myself taught for many years. When I left Australia, in 1923, as a delegate to the Fourth Assembly of the League of Nations, I was commissioned to inquire into the Spahlinger treatment of tuberculosis and into the treatment of cancer, diabetes, and other diseases. I went to Geneva with an open mind, and, indeed, with the definite hope that I would find in the Spahlinger treatment something of inestimable value, so that I might recommend to the Government the expenditure of money for its general adoption. Had I been able to do so I should have been a popular hero. On the other hand, when, after I had given the matter careful consideration, I placed the facts, as I knew them, before the House, I became the most unpopular man in my own state. Before my speech in the House, the many letters I received were mostly congratulatory, but when I had given my opinion of the Spahlinger treatment, most of them were full of abuse. One writer, an official connected with some organization in Sydney, went so far as to say that the evidence which he had placed before me as to the curative effect of this treatment was so clear and concise that there could be no reason for my failure to recommend it to the Government other than that I was in my dotage. That may or may not be true, but it does not alter the fact that I investigated this matter with an unbiased mind, and that my report was based on the information which I had been able to gather with reference to the treatment. I claimed, at that time, to be neither a bacteriologist nor a clinician. The honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) has treated that admission as evidence that my report to the Government and the advice which I tendered was worthless. That is not a correct deduction, because, although neither a bacteriologist nor a clinician, I claim to have been able to weigh judi cially the evidence which was placed before me. The evidence I obtained about this treatment would not have been increased by an inspection of Mr. Spahlinger’s laboratory. No person, whether a bacteriologist or not, could, from a cursory examination of the laboratory, say more than that it was beautifully equipped. The best bacteriologist in the world, unless he worked with Spahlinger for months, could have no means of deciding that the work being done was of value. If, with other honorable members, I inspected a mine, we might be able to report that it was well ventilated and equipped, but we could, after a mere cursory inspection, give no reliable estimate of the value of the ore in it.. The information that I gained in regard to the Spahlinger treatment of tuberculosis was gathered from many sources. I lived in the same hotel as Mr. Spahlinger for a month, and had frequent opportunity of speaking to him. At Geneva, I saw. also, a number of Mr. Spahlinger’s supporters, who placed before me certain statements. When I returned to London.. I interviewed the Ministry of Health to ascertain what had been done by the British Government in connexion with this matter. Seeing that the British Ministry represent over 40,000,000 people, they must be as desirous as any member of this House that any benefit derivable from this treatment should be made available to sufferers from tuberculosis. The British Government sent men to Geneva to inspect Mr. Spahlinger’s laboratory, and I shall read their comments becauseI wish to repeat accurately the words in. which they expressed them. They say -

The Minister of Health, in England, sent an expert to Geneva, who reported that -

the laboratories were adequately designed and equipped.

at present the details and the technique adopted in the preparation of the serum and vaccine remain undisclosed by Spahlinger, and an. opinion cannot, therefore, be expressed on the scientific value of his work from the bacteriological stand-point.

so far as this expert was in a position to judge the clinical results of treatment both by the serum and the vaccine have in some cases been striking.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Strikingly favorable?

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:

– Yes, evidently that is what is intended. The Minister for Health, in commenting upon the situation, spoke as follows: -

In 1914, Mr. Spahlinger practically exhausted his supply of complete serum and complete vaccine. Since that date, under war and postwar conditions he has continued the preparation of partial serum in small quantities, and has used it for the treatment of a few cases.

At the present time Mr. Spahlinger is concentrating on the preparation of complete serum on a large scale for general distribution to the medical profession. The present stage of the work is chiefly confined to the preparation of toxins in bulk, which is a difficult and lengthy process. He is not undertaking any active work in the preparation of the complete vaccine on a large scale, beyond the collection of cultures of tubercle baccilli for this purpose. The preparation of the complete serum in itself appears to be a long and complicated process, and it is clear that at present Mr. Spahlinger can assign no definite date for the production of the serum in large quantities for general use.

The next action taken by the Minister of Health was to write to Spahlinger, and make him a definite and clear offer. This was made in April, 1923, before I left England. The department wrote to Spahlinger, saying that, it did not wish him to disclose his formula, but that money would be made available by the British Government for the further pursuit of his research if he would give a test of his serums with a certain number of cases in London which had been previously examined by well-known physicians, when he might have his own representative present. That was in May, 1923.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Before the MacDonald Government came into power in Great Britain there were a number of speakers in the House of Commons who stated that a Labour Government would accept the Spahlinger treatment. But when such a government came into power it made the most careful inquiries through the Ministry of Health, and then had to adopt the same attitude as that taken by every scientist who has investigated the treatment. The British Government says now, “We do not know if there is anything in the treatment, but we have asked Mr. Spahlinger to give us some evidence of the value of his discovery, and to place his cards upon the table so that we may carry on from where he has left off. If he can show any efficacy in his treatment, or prove one or two of the many cures that he claims he has made, then any money he requires will be made available to him.” No one regrets more than I do that I am not able to recommend the Government to advance money towards securing this treatment. I feel, apart from financial considerations, that if I did so I should not be acting rightly towards those suffering from this disease.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

,- There is one remark that I am sorry left the lips of the Minister for Health (Sir Neville Howse), and it was that we should not buoy up the unfortunates who are suffering from this disease with a greater hope than we ourselves possess, or words to that effect. I disagree with that. The first thing that I was told when I went into a. ward where there was an unfortunate suffering from cancer was, “Never, so long as you practice, frighten your patient by mentioning the word cancer.” The London public, at least, understood the word carcinoma. I am sorry to say that there are medical men who tell patients that they have cancer, and must be operated upon. The Minister will know that that takes the fighting power of the patient away. I want the Minister to understand that I have not the slightest desire to hurt his feelings, but while he was speaking I could, imagine myself in a court of law with a very gifted barrister for the defence doing his best to make the jury look upon Spahlinger as a criminal. If I had been requested, as Dr. Cumpston was, to go to Geneva to report on the Spahlinger treatment, .nothing but death would have prevented me from so doing. In that case we had clear proof that for some reason, no matter where the influence may have- come from, Dr. Cumpston failed to interview Mr. Spahlinger. If another medical man is sent to Geneva I hope it will be some one of the type of Dr. Mackeddie, who would not permit anything except death from making a full inquiry. I am reminded of a time when a very clever discovery wa3 made by the Japanese for the cure of small- pox. The use of the treatment left not a mark on the arm. I introduced a clever doctor to Dr. Cumpston, and then persuaded him to give evidence before the Vaccination Committee that was appointed by the State Parliament. I am sorry to say that I have heard nothing further from the department in that regard. That treatment should be further investigated, for the Minister will admit that the scientific genius of Japan takes a prominent place in the discovery and cure of disease..

Sir Neville Howse:

– Two. of the leading Japanese bacteriologists are investigating ihe Spahlinger treatment very carefully.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Sometimes experts will see only as much as they desire to see. I notice that the Minister did not refer to the difficulties experienced by Pasteur in his early days. In a little publication that was placed in my hands before the dinner adjournment there appears an excerpt from the Lancet of 7th April, 1923, containing a statement by Dr. E. Lardy, ex-president of the Swiss Federal Examinations of Medicine, Geneva University, in appreciation of the work of Mr. Spahlinger. He may not be a bacteriologist, but if he was fit to be an examiner of. candidates for the medical profession in Switzerland, which is one of the most highly civilized countries in the world, surely he is competent to express an authoritative opinion upon the Spahlinger treatment. The publication contains portraits showing an unfortunate young woman with tubercular glands disfiguring her neck, and later portraits of her with a healed cicatrice - a comely and apparently healthy woman. I am. sorry that the Minister refused to accept the statement that has been made in this committee regarding an Australian doctor’s tubercular daughter, who went to Switzerland and was cured by the Spahlinger treatment. Her father, being a doctor, had the right to take his daughter to any medical man and: receive advice free of charge, and if he is not qualified to declare that the girl is cured of tuberculosis he should be hounded out of the profession. I cannot understand why the Minister should cast suspicion upon the doctor’s statement that his child has been cured. The Minister spoke of the large sum of money that would be involved in securing the Spahlinger treatment for Australia. Unfortunately considerations of filthy lucre are allowed to obtrude into even the most sacred subjects. We spend millions of pounds upon the murder of our fellow men, and will not find a few thousand pounds for the saving of human life. For 39 years I have advocated the nationalization of medicine, in order to obviate professional opposition to new discoveries and inventions for the cure of human ills. Engineers, as a body, have not been prominent in mechanical invention ; the new discoveries have been made by men in every calling and profession. So when I am told that a man is not an expert in a particular science I am reminded of a witty saying by a great Scotch professor, that “ medicine is a science of experiment punctuated by murder.” Having regard to the composition of the medicines that were dispensed 40, 50 and 100 years ago, I have no hesitation in saying that they poisoned more people than they cured. Queen Victoria would not have ascended the throne of England but for the blundering of the men who, in 1817, stood highest in the medical profession, in England. When Princess Charlotte, daughter of George IV., was giving birth to a child that-, had it lived, would have been King of England, and was experiencing the pains incidental to the expulsion of the child from the womb, the doctors took from her a pint of blood, and, because the pain continued, another pint of blood. That treatment caused the death of both mother and child. In his memoirs Baron Stockmar, who was a medical man, said he could not understand why a healthy young woman, when her body was performing a natural function, should be bled and bled. If the highest lady in the land lost her life through the ignorance of the most eminent acconcheurs of that day,, we can readily understand what might happen to ?? p?????. I have faith in Dr. Mackeddie. of Melbourne, the only medical man who, so far as I know, interrupted a large and lucrative practice in order to go abroad for further study. He was commissioned by the Victorian Government to inquire into the Spahlinger treatment, and he said in a letter published in the Lancet of 28th April, 1923-

T am from Australia, commissioned to investigate for the Government of Victoria the Spahlinger treatment for tuberculosis. I thought it best to go straight to Switzerland, and, before seeing Mr. Spahlinger, 1 went up the mountains to investigate his treatment in action in a sanatorium. I then came down and spent some days with Mr. Spahlinger at Geneva at his wonderful laboratory and experimental farm of horses, cows, goats, &c. During this time I was constantly examining patients who were being or had been treated along Spahlinger lines, comparing old and present conditions, examining old and recent X-ray pictures of chests, listening to histories, &c. I then read the reports of a number of cases in journals and in manuscript ready for publication that had received this treatment at the hands of chestmen of repute. I understand I have yet to see cases in England that had undergone this treatment. Any further evidence I feel sure will only confirm me in reporting to my Government that Henri Spahlinger^ vaccine and scrum treatment in tuberculosis stands by itself, and that the medical profession should lose no time in taking a definite stand in thi3 matter. But the production of these remedies, and prophylaxins is almost at a stand-still. The Spahlinger family, once in affluent circumstances, ave now almost penniless. They have spent all they had in this self-imposed search for potent antituberculous vaccines, and sera. Henri Spahlinger loathes publicity, lives in an atmosphere of patient and cheery altruism, has spurned repeated offers from firms and private individuals to “ commercialize “ his work - offers that would have resulted long ago in retrieving his family’s fortune. There is still another serious matter. The long strain of work and debtcarrying is beginning to tell on Mr. Spahlinger. There have been for some time unequivocal signs of nerve depletion. Truly there are the makings of a tragedy here.

My appreciation of Dr. Mackeddie will be endorsed by every student who has had the honour of studying under him. In bringing before the House to-day the need for further action by the Commonwealth Government in regard to the Spahlinger treatment, the Leader of the Opposition has performed a great public service. I deprecate any suggestion that he has introduced this matter for party purposes, but I deeply regret the unsympathetic attitude of the Minister for Health. Let. us consider for a moment some of the things that a Department of Public Health might do. No doubt the Minister will agree with me that many of the diseases of which our people are victims are due to the use of improperly prepared foods and infected water. Has the department ever issued simple brochures explaining to the people how to detect unwholesome water, and how to prepare food ? If school children were given simple instruction not to drink standing water which had not been boiled, and were taught a few other elementary principles of hygiene, the whole community would automatically benefit. At one time half the medical world said that tuberculosis in cattle was different from tuberculosis in humans, and the other half declared that tubercular disease in humans and in animals was the same. We now know that unhealthy cattle frequently convey disease to healthy humans. Many experts hold that cancel is caused by the eating of diseased food and the improper preservation of tinned foods, especially jams and fruits. I have endeavoured to induce this Parliament to insist that each tin of preserved food shall be stamped with the month and year in which it left the factory.Under present conditions a tin of preserved fruit may remain on the back shelf of a store for years before being sold. In Egypt even packets of cigarettes have indelibly stamped upon them the date of their manufacture. Why does not the Department of Health specify the maximum percentage of preservatives to be used in butter ? Foster butter, which is sold in the Melbourne shops, and also exported to America, contains no preservatives. If one locality can produce a commodity that can be exported without recourse to preservatives, surely the whole of our butter production could be free of adulteration. Any one who takes enough preservatives will soon be lying under the daisies. Huge sky scrapers that exclude light are being built. Why has not the Department of Health issued the instruction that every room shall have direct daylight, and that no human beings shall be required to work in artificial light? No other Minister has as good an opportunity as the Minister for Health to serve humanity. I am astonished that the department has not taken notice of the hideous noises that afflict modern humanity. It is known that a high explosive shell may destroy the organs of hearing, and other organs as well, and that harsh noises may injure the nerves of men and women in advanced years. Is it not obvious that the strong headlights of motor cars injure the eyes? Why has not the Health Department issued a simple instruction to people to wear coloured glasses, or to take some other measure to prevent injury to tho sight? I have found it necessary, when on the St. Kilda promenade at night, to wear coloured glasses, and have advised my friends to do so too. The Chief Health Officer of Victoria before federation, the late Dr. Gresswell, who was provided with only £1,000 a year, did more good than all the medical men in the state, for, with the government’s support, he prevented the plague from reaching Victoria. I would gladly vote twice as much money to the Health Department as it now receives if I could have the assurance that it would be spent in promoting health. My appreciation of the Minister may be unknown to him, but I assure him here, publicly, that it is very great, and that I regret having to voice these criticisms. It has been said that Mr. Spahlinger refused £250,000 from Rothschild or some advertising American firm. It is true that the acceptance of the offer might have done good, but is it not to the credit of the man that he refused it? I admire him for his action. I am glad that lucre could not buy him. He returned £10,000, with £500 interest, because he could not complete a contract, and for a man who is in financial difficulties to do that is unusual. Could there be higher testimony to his honour and credit? I feel certain that if honorable members were here without the crack of the Government whip they would vote to give Mr. Spahlinger up to£150,000 to start his treatment in Australia.

Proposed vote agreed to. department of markets and Migration.

Proposed vote, £410.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- Is it correct, as reported, that there is to. be a reconstruction of the Institute of Scienceand Industry? If so, I should like the Minister to give the committee some information regarding the intended changes.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · Cowper · CP

– The Government two montbs ago called together representatives of practically all the scientific bodies of Australia to consider the wisest way to re-organize theinstitute. That conference submitted several alternative proposals, which are still under the con- sideration of the Government. As soon as the Government has completed its plan, it will submit proposals to honorable members. The question will be discussed in connexion with the vote of £100,000 which has been set aside, and will be appropriated in proper form.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Northern Territory.

Proposed vote, £57,800.

Mr GABB:
Angas

.- What is the reason for the increase of £41,187 in the expenditure on the Northern Territory? Is it the intention of the department to undertake extensive boring operations? Is the increase connected with the proposal to appoint two commissions to govern the Territory?

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · Echuca · CP

.- The increase has nothing to do with the appointment of commissions. The money is to provide for necessary works. Of a sum of £40,500, £28,386 is to meet, liabilities on works in hand, but not completed at the 30th June, 1925. The balance of £12,114 is towards the cost of the f ollowing new works : -

WATER BORING.

No. 1 Bore. - On Victoria River Downs Holding, Pastoral Lease, No. 2184, at the southwest end of Gill’s Creek.

No. 2 Bore. - On Limbunya Holding, Pastoral Lease, No. 2412, about 4 miles north of G.B. Lockhole, on the Wattle Creek.

No. 3 Bore. - On Pastoral Lease, No. 2116, Inverway Holding, between Inverway Homestead and Swan River.

New Bore “A.” - On stock route in vicinity of site of Bore No.8, about 20 miles northnortheast from Mill’s waterhole, near Illawarra out-station, on Victoria River Downs Holding. Pastoral Lease, No. 2184.

New Bore “ B.” - On stock route, about 20 mites south-west from Melly’s waterhole, on Victoria River Downs Holding, Pastoral Lease, No. 2184.

New Bore “C.” - On stock route, about 20 miles south-west from proposed new Bore “ B,” in the vicinity of Mr Wallaston.

New Bore”D.” - On stock route, about 20 miles south-west from proposed new Bore “ C,” in the vicinity of Barry’s Knoll.

Two Now Bores. - It is also proposed to construct two new bores on Northern Territory Pastoral Leases 2291 and 2292, for the lessees, Messrs. McDill Bros., at sites to be selected by Mr. Keith Ward.

One New Bore. - Renner Springs.

One New Bore. - Barrow Creek.

Two New Bores. - Additional to the above, it is proposed to construct two experimental bores for wells on the Burt Plain, north-west of Alice Springs, and on the northern fall of the Macdonnell ranges. The suggested new bores on the northern side of the ranges would give valuable indications of the geological formation at depth, and of possible water supplies, and also be of great assistance in determining the relative value of this area for settlement purposes.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Resolved -

That there be granted to His Majesty to the service of the year 1925-26, for the purposes of additions, new works, buildings,&c., a sum not exceeding £323,286.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted.

Resolution of Ways and Means based on resolution of Supply, reported and adopted.

Ordered -

That Dr. Earle Page and Mr. Hill do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill presented by Dr. Earle Page, and passed through all its stages without amendment or debate.

page 1545

RAILWAYS BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 13th August (vide page 1425), on motion by Mr. Hill -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Mr Foster:

– Yes, of course I did, and the Government agreed to it.

Mr HILL:

– No, the Government would not agree to it.

Mr.Foster. - I tell the honorable gentleman that the Government did agree to it.

Mr HILL:

– The honorable member for Grey (Mr. Lacey) used very effectively some materia] which I proposed to use and I thank him for what he had to say. I should like to read the following short extract from the report of the Railways Standing Committee of South Australia, presented to the South Australian Parliament by Mr. A. W. Robinson -

We had the same experience with regard to the estimates for the Long Plains to Port Augusta railway. In 1913 itwas estimated to cost £7,833 per mile. The present estimate is for £10,000 per mile, yet between these two estimates the transcontinental railway was constructed at a total cost when completed of £5,800 per mile.

The transcontinental line was constructed mainly on the day labour system. If honorable members will read the report presented by the South Australian Railways Standing Committee, they will bo convinced that under the system adopted by Mr. Bell scores of thousands of pounds were saved to the Commonwealth in the construction of the transcontinental railway. As regards the operation of that line all who have been over it in the transcontinental train have been loud in their praise of its smooth running and the service rendered on the train. I have not travelled the world over, but I have spoken to gentlemen who have travelled in every part of the world, and they have made it abundantly plain to me that in their opinion it is absolutely the best train they have ever travelled in.

Mr Foster:

– The honorable gentleman knows that it is a surface railway, and is not ballasted at all.

Mr HILL:

– It is all the more credit to Mr. Bell and those associated with him that such things should be said of trains running over an unballasted line. The honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan), in a very neat speech on the second reading of this bill, suggested that an increase of salary should apply all round, and he asked whatthe Government proposed to do for the lower paid men in the service of the Commonwealth Railways Department. It is right that I should say that Mr. Bell has not had any increase in salary since 1917, when he was appointed Commissioner at a salary of £2,000, but since that time the wages of employees on the transconti nental line paid by the day have been raised by from 31 to 50 per cent.

Mr Charlton:

– I can say for Mr. Bell thatunder his management there has never been any trouble with the men.

Mr HILL:

– That is so. There was a district allowance of 12s. 3d. per week paid to employees on the railway, and that allowance has been considerably increased since October, 1917. I think it was suggested by some honorable members that the deficit on the working of the line has reached an enormous sum, and in this connexion 1 should like honorable members to know that at the present moment we are carrying livestock on that line at rates about 25 per cent. lower than the rates in force on the South Australian railways. This is with a view to opening up and developing the country adjacent to the railway. The Commissioner ofRailways has the power to make concessions, and he has used his power to the fullest extent with the object of opening up and developing the country along the line. The honorable member for Wakefield made some references to the north-south line, but I am not. at present able to refer to that matter. I hope the House will agree to pass the bill, so that the increase to Mr. Bell’s salary, which is well-merited and long overdue, may be made.

Question - That the bill be now read a second time - put. The House divided.

AYES: 45

NOES: 3

Majority … … 42

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and reported from committee without amendment; report adopted.

Third Reading

Motion (by Mr. Hill) proposed -

That the bill be now read a third time.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

. -I wish to make clear my reason for voting in the division with the honorable member for Angas (Mr.Gabb). I have no objection to any public servant receiving the salary that he merits, but I do object to the people’s money being paid away in large sums without their having the right to say yea or nay in the matter. I agree with an interjection which was made from this side of the House that the Commonwealth railway employees have no complaint to make about the control exercised over them by the Commissioner. He has been a very fine employer in the sense that he has wisely avoided turmoil and friction by giving the men a fair deal. An increase in salary from £2,000 to £3,000 represents a considerable sum.

Mr Hill:

– The increase in the Commissioner’s salary is really from £2,000 to £2,600, although we have the right to pay him £3,000.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I do not say that. Mr. Bell is not worth the increase. I maintain that there should be a clause in every bill making large increases in the salaries of ‘ public servants temporary until the next election, and then, if the Government were again returned by the taxpayers, it would have a perfect right to make those increases permanent. For that reason I have always endeavoured to obtain a form of government that will give the people control not only of Parliament and its members, butalso of legislation. I have a keen memory of very large increases paid to public servants who have been unduly and unfairly promoted. I take this opportunity not to delay the bill unduly, but to registermy protest against the procedure at present adopted in increasing the salaries of public servants.

Questionresolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

House adjourned at 10.26 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 19 August 1925, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1925/19250819_reps_9_111/>.

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House of Representatives19 August 1925

NAVIGATION BILL

COMMONWEALTH BANK (RURAL CREDITS) BILL

DEATH OF RIGHT HON. W. MASSEY, P.C

Mr SPEAKER (Rt Hon W A Watt:BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

QUESTION

CANBERRA

Sir AUSTIN CHAPMAN:EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MARR:Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr THOMPSON:NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

QUESTION

SEARCH FOR OIL

Mr R GREEN:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

Mr BRUCE:NAT

Mr FOSTER:WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr FOSTER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr FOSTER:

Mr BRUCE:

QUESTION

OLD-AGE AND INVALID PENSIONS

Mr YATES:ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr YATES:

Dr EARLE PAGE:Treasurer · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

Mr WEST:EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Dr EARLE PAGE:

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

SHIPPING AGREEMENT

Mr SEABROOK:FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr EARLE PAGE:CP

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr EARLE PAGE:

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr EARLE PAGE:

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr EARLE PAGE:

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA HOUSE,LONDON

Mr FORDE:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

TRANSFERRED TAXATION OFFICERS

Mr CHARLTON:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Dr EARLE PAGE:CP

QUESTION

SEAPLANE CARRIER

Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

OIL EXPLORATION IN PAPUA

Mr BLAKELEY:DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MARR:NAT

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE EXAMINATION

Mr COLEMAN:REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

WIRE AND WIRE NETTING

Mr GREGORY:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr PRATTEN:Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr GREGORY:

Mr PRATTEN:

Mr GREGORY:

Mr BRUCE:NAT

QUESTION

REPATRIATION

Mr R GREEN:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:Minister for Defence · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr YATES:

House of Representatives
19 August 1925

Mr SPEAKER (Rt Hon W A Watt:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

Sir AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr THOMPSON:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr YATES:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr SEABROOK:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr FORDE:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MARR:
NAT

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr GREGORY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Mr R GREEN:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence · CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

Mr PRATTEN:
NAT

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence · Calare · NAT

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

The CHAIRMAN (Hon F W Bamford:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr COLEMAN:
Reid

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for .Defence · Calare · NAT

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence and Minister for Health · Calare · NAT

Mr COLEMAN:
Reid

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
Minister for Defence · Calare · NAT

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

Sir NEVILLE HOWSE:
CalareMinister for Defence · NAT