House of Representatives
26 June 1925

9th Parliament · 3rd Session



Mr. Speaker (Rt. Hon. W. A. Watt) took the chair at 11 a.m. and read prayers.

page 492

QUESTION

TAXATION OF FILM IMPORTERS

Mr MANNING:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the attention of the Treasurer been drawn to a recent statement in the Sydney press that not only do American cinematograph films enter the Commonwealth free of duty, but the makers of the films, by the formation in Australia . of subsidiary companies to which films are sold at a fictitious value, evade payment of income taxation upon profits earned in the Commonwealth amounting to about £500,000 iter annum? Will the Treasurer con-, Elder the adoption of means by which those people may be made to pay taxation upon profits made in Australia?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– My attention has not been earlier drawn to that statement, and if the honorable member will place the question upon the notice-paper I shall have inquiries made regarding the taxation of film importers.

page 493

QUESTION

LEAGUE OF NATIONS

Australian Delegates to Assembly - Ratification of Conventions

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The personnel of the Australian delegation to the meeting of the League of Nations Assembly at Geneva in September next, as announced by the Prime Minister last night, does not include a representative of the Opposition. Will the Prime Minister explain why on this occasion the Opposition has been denied representation?

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

– The representation of Australia at the Geneva Conference received the fullest consideration from the Government, and we decided that a delegation constituted as announced by me yesterday would be the most satisfactory.

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Prom time to time the Commonwealth has received from the League of Nations conventions relating to opium and various other subjects. Will the Prime Minister say what action the Government proposes to take in regard to them?

Mr BRUCE:

– In reply to questions asked by the honorable member during this session, I have supplied a great deal of information regarding conventions which have reached the Government from the International Labour Office, and if the honorable member will put upon the notice-paper any further questions relating to conventions received from the Assembly of the League of Nations, I shall furnish him with an answer.

page 493

QUESTION

PRESS CABLE RATES

Mr MANNING:

– Last week I asked certain questions of the Prime Minister regarding cable rates, but, possibly because they were not clearly worded, they did not elicit the information I desired. I now ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a statement in the press that the British Treasury is delaying its consent to a reduction of the press cable rates? Having regard to the importance of cheap press cable rates between Australia and Great Britain, will the right honorable gentleman endeavour to induce the British Government to agree to the reduction which has been already sanctioned by the Commonwealth Government ?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The whole matter is under consideration at the present time, and representations are being made to the Imperial Government in regard to it.

page 493

QUESTION

WAR-TIME PROFITS TAX

Mr FENTON:
for Mr. Scullin

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. What is the total amount of War-time Profits Tax remitted since the commencement of the War-time Profits Tax Act?
  2. How much of the above tax lias been remitted since Mie 30th June, 1924?
Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– The Commissioner of Taxation has supplied the following information : -

  1. £420.615 0s. 7d.
  2. £80,555 10s. 2d.

These are amounts remitted by the board constituted under section 59 of the War-time Profits Tax Assessment Act, this being the only authority which can remit tax.

page 493

QUESTION

TELEPHONISTS’ ABSENCE ON LEAVE

Mr CUNNINGHAM:
GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is a fact that telephonists in New South Wales ure required to furnish a doctor’s certificate on being absent from duty for one day owing to illness?
  2. If so, will he give instructions that the previous method, that allowed for three single days’ absence on sick leave within twelve months, on full pay, be reintroduced?
  3. Is it a fact that telephonists in New South Wales have amounts deducted from their salaries at an hourly rate for absence from duty for a single day?
  4. Is it a fact that telephonists are paid on a yearly rate?
  5. If so, how does the department deduct amounts on an hourly rate for absence?
Mr GIBSON:
Postmaster-General · CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · CP

– The desired information is being obtained, and will be supplied as soon as available .

page 494

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Emungalan to DalyWaters Railway - Oil Tanks, Darwin - Medical Facilities.

Mr NELSON:
NORTHERN TERRITORY, NORTHERN TERRITORY

asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice -

In view of the answer to the question by the honorable member for the Northern Territory, in which the Minister replied that it was expected that the bridge over the Katherine River in the Northern Territory would be completed about December next -

Canhe inform the House if the construction of the line from Emungalan to Daly Waters will be done by contract or by his department?

In any case, when does he expect that the material for this work will be going forward to the rail head?

Mr HILL:
Minister for Works and Railways · ECHUCA, VICTORIA · CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. It is proposed to invite tenders.
  2. Not until the bridge and other necessary arrangements are further advanced.
Mr NELSON:

asked the Minister for

Works and Railways, upon notice -

Incontinuation of the question by the honorable member for the Northern Territory withregard to the construction of oil tanksin Darwin -

Will he inform the House when he expects the material for the construction of same to arrive in. Darwin ?

Will excavation work be necessary in the construction of same, and, if so, when will a start be made on such work?

Mr HILL:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. Not for two or three months.
  2. Yes. It is anticipated that it will he. commenced at an early date.
Mr NELSON:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and. Territories, upon notice -

  1. . How many doctors are there in the Northern Territory?
  2. What are the nature and conditions of their appointment?
  3. How many hospitals are there in the Northern Territory ?
  4. How many hospitals are attended by doctors?
  5. In case of urgency, how long would it take the doctors to reach the hospital’s from the places at which , they are at present stationed ?
Mr MARR:
Honorary Minister · PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. Two.
  2. Oneis Government Medical Officer and Chief Health Officer at Darwin, and has charge of the hospital at that place; the other is also stationed at Darwin, where he is Quarantine Officer, and is available for special service either there, or, in cases of emergency, outside Darwin.
  3. There are two Government hospitals, viz., at Darwin and Pine Creek; there are also two hospitals conducted by the Australian Inland Mission at Maranboy and Victoria River towards which the Government’ grants financial assistance and supplies drugs, &c . A third Inland Mission Hospital is nearing completion at AliceSprings. It is anticipated that this will be staffed and available for the public in a few weeks’ time.
  4. The hospital at Darwin is the only one which is visited daily by a doctor.
  5. It would take about eight to ten hours for a doctor to reach the Government hospital at Pine Creek from Darwin, about one and a half days to reach. Maranboy, and about three days to reach Victoria River.

It may be mentioned that the hospitals at Pine Creek and Maranboy are connected by telephone, and the sisters in charge are therefore able to obtain urgent medical advice from Darwin.

page 494

QUESTION

HEALTH OF IMMIGRANTS

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. What precautions, if any, are. taken at the port of embarkation to notify intending immigrants, other than assisted immigrants, of the conditions and liabilities relating to health which may have the effect of preventing such immigrants from landing?
  2. In connexion with the Commonwealth lineand other shipping agencies, are any special instructions issued in this regard?
Mr MARR:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The matter of advising such persons respecting the possibility of being refused permission to land in Australia if not in sound health is largely one for the shipping companies, who are aware of their liability to be called upon to provide a return passage for any afflicted passenger who is refused permission to land. It is the practice at London for the Commonwealth Medical Officer to inspect passengers embarking at that port for Australia, and to point out to any afflicted persons who come under notice their liability of: rejection on arrival in Australia. British Consuls have also been advised from time to time, in connexion with the matter of granting visas to intending foreign immigrants, that sound health, inter alia, is a. condition of admission to Australia.

    1. All shipping agencies concerned ‘ in Australiaare fully aware of the fact that any intending migrant who issuffering from a disease or disability likely to render him a danger to, or a charge upon, the State is liable to be rejected on arrival unless his admission has been specially authorized. Apart from the experience they have gained from the action taken by Commonwealth officers from time to time in restricting such ‘migrants, it has been the practice to supply the companies regularly with official passenger-list forms on which the classes of disease or disability which have to be specially reported if any passengers are suffering therefrom, are clearly set forth. All shipping companies concerned were reminded in December last, when being advised regarding the new landing money regulations which were to be applied to foreignmigrants, that such requirements were to be in addition to the usual requirements regarding sound health, &c.

page 495

QUESTION

WINE EXPORT BOUNTY

Mr STEWART:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

asked the Minister for

Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. What is the amount paid to date under the Wine Export Bounty Act to wine exporters?
  2. What is the quantity of wine involved?
  3. What is the date upon which the first payment was made?
Mr PRATTEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Total bounty to . 25th June, 1925, £28,417 2s.
  2. 142,0851/2 gallons.
  3. First payment, 14th February, 1925.

page 495

QUESTION

BINGOES IN FEDERAL TERRITORY

Mr KILLEN:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that complaints are made by sheep-owners adjoining the Federal Territory of the serious damage done to their flocks by dingoes or wild dogfrom the Territory ?
  2. If so, willhe take steps to ensure that the pest complained of shall be destroyed?

Mr.MARR. - Complaints were made to the Federal Capital Commission some time ago, and the commission then stated that there were a few dogs in the Cotter catchment area, and that instructions had been issued that these were to be destroyed. Inquiry is being made of the commission as to the present position of the matter.

page 495

PUBLIC SERVICE

Basic Wage and Child Endowment

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon . notice -

  1. Whether all adult employees of the Commonwealth (temporary and permanent) are re ceiving at least the Commonwealth basic wage, and those with eligible families the provisions of the child endowment?
  2. If not, why not?
  3. How many are employed under exempt provisions ?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : - 1 and 2. Yes, sofar as employees underthe Public Service Act are concerned, except certain artisans in departments other than the Postmaster -General’s Department, who are remunerated according to rates fixed by industrial awards for similar positions in outside industries.

  1. Thenumber of adult employees under exemption is not at present available. Latest figures in reference to exempt employees (adults and minors combined show that at 30th June, 1924, total number was 17,023, including 7,890 employed at semi-official and allowance post offices.

page 495

QUESTION

TRANSFERRED PROPERTIES

Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. What was the total value of and the. rate of interest paid on ‘properties transferred from the states to the Commonwealth in each state in June, 1914, compared with June, 1924?
  2. Whether the percentage of interest paid by the Commonwealth to the states varies with the rate paid by the states for renewed loans which have been used in the construction of Customs Houses, defence works, post offices, &c.?
  3. Is it a fact that, omitting interest, none of the states have been paid compensation for any of the propertiestransferred?
Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Interest was paid at the rate of 3) per cent. on properties of the following value. -
  1. No.
  2. Yes.

page 495

QUESTION

BROADCASTING IN ADELAIDE

Mr MAKIN:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. Whether Central Broadcasters Limited, of Adelaide, have complied with all the provisions contained in their licence and contract with the Government?
  2. what progress has been made with a high power wireless broadcasting station for Adelaide?
Mr GIBSON:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

  1. No; the company has not yet used the full power authorized in the licence, viz., 5,000 watts.
  2. The company advises that contracts have been entered into for the supply of the transmitter and for the erection of the masts.

page 496

QUESTION

NATIONALITY OF WOMEN

Mr MAKIN:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Government have received from the British Imperial Government any request for suggestion or advice concerning amendments to the Nationality Act dealing with the nationality of women?
  2. If so, will the Government afford this House an opportunity of dealing with legislation on this subject?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. Yes. Communications have been and are still being exchanged between the Imperial and Commonwealth Governments.
  2. Any amendments to the existing law which the Government may desire to effect will necessarily be submitted for the consideration of the House in the ordinary way.

page 496

QUESTION

WIRE NETTING

Mr PROWSE:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for

Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that the Australian wirenetting manufacturers are offering Australian wire netting to New Zealand at a discount of 71 per cent. c.i.f. and e., that is to say, considerably below the price they are selling it in Australia?
  2. If not, will he inquire into the matter? 3.Is bounty paid on Australian wire netting sold outside Australia?
Mr PRATTEN:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions areas follow : -

  1. Australian manufacturers are not selling wire netting to buyers in New Zealand at considerably less than to buyers in Australia.
  2. Sec reply to No. 1.
  3. Yes.

page 496

QUESTION

UNEMPLOYMENT IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA

North-South and Port Augusta to Red Hill Railways

Mr LACEY:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice -

Will he expedite matters as much as possible in connexion with the authorization of the north-south railway or the Port Augusta-Red Hill railway, with a view to relieving, with work that will be necessary in connexion with these railway projects, the distress now existing an the northern parts of South Australia, caused through unemployment?

Mr HILL:
CP

– The Federal and South Australian Parliaments have first to ratify the agreement, and, if approved, legislation authorizing the line will also be requisite.

page 496

QUESTION

PLANE CARRIER AND FLOATING DOCK

Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Is he in a position yet to inform the House when the plans and specifications of the plane carrier and the floating dock will be ready?
  2. In view of the slackness of work at Cockatoo Dock and Walsh Island, will he give instructions to expedite the preparation of the plans and specifications, and all other necessary preliminary matters, with the object that building operations may be commenced at the earliest possible date?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– With reference to the seaplane carrier, the British Admiralty have given an assuranuce that guidance plans and complete specifications will be ready to leave London for Australia at the end of this month. In April last the Admiralty was asked to cable in advance certain information to enable material to be ordered, so as to hasten the commencement of the vessel. This information was received on the 3rd June, and the particulars were transmitted to the Commonwealth Shipping Board. It is understood that steps have been taken by that board to, order this material and to hasten generally the commencement and continuance of the construction.

The floating dock is still a matter of negotiation, and it is not known when the plans and specifications will be ready. The Government of New South Wales made an offer to complete the 13,000-ton floating dock with a subsidy of £120,000 from the Commonwealth Government. It was considered that a 15,000-ton dock was the minimum that would meet requirements, and a proposal in this direction was forwarded to the New South Wales Government in April last. No reply has so far been received by the Commonwealth Government.

page 497

QUESTION

PORT PIRIE SMELTERS

Mr LACEY:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Will he institute inquiries and ascertain whether, in order to provide a reasonable wage for those employed in the lead smelting industry at Port Pirie, it is necessary to place an export duty on silver-lead ores?
  2. If it is found necessary, willhe take such steps to protect the smelting industry?
Mr PRATTEN:
NAT

– The honorable member will appreciate that it is not the duty of the Minister for Trade and Customs to determine what is a reasonable wage, this being the responsibility of the industrial courts established by law. Should the position of the smelting industry in Port Pirie be due in any way to the incidence of the tariff, on receipt of evidence to that effect I will institute the inquiries asked for.

page 497

QUESTION

BANK INTEREST RATE

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. Does he consider the state of Australia at present in a worse condition than if the Great War had continued up to the present?
  2. Does he think that Australia is in a better position to-day than she was during the war ?
  3. Does he consider that moderate interest charged upon advances contributes to the welfare and stability of a country and its business circles?
  4. If so, will he explain to the House why the Commonwealth Bank is to-day charging 7 per cent. on overdrafts, &c,whereas during the war it stabilized finance by charging only 6per cent., and thus compelled other banking institutions to follow its good example?
Dr EARLE PAGE:
CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No.
  2. Yes.
  3. Yes.
  4. During the war, the Commonwealth Bank charged a rate of interest slightly lower than that charged by other banking institutions, but this was done when the Commonwealth Bank had immense Commonwealth Treasury funds on which the bank paid no interest. The Board of Directors increased the rate after the interest returned to investors in many classes of Government securities had increased to over 0 per cent., thus approximately maintaining the difference between the rate charged for overdrafts and that yielded by Government securities. Since the war, the demand for money for Government loans has been heavy, and for advances to meet private enterprises has increased. In the circumstances, the rate of interest has naturally risen, following the ordinary laws of supply and demand.

page 497

QUESTION

PAPUAN CIVIL SERVICE

Mr MAKIN:
for Mr. Yates

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

When the reclassification of the Civil Service of Papua takes place will retrospective effect be given to the decisions owing to the delay which has been occasioned since the reclassification was requested by the civil servants in Papua?

Mr MARR:
NAT

– Every aspect of the matter will receive the fullest consideration on the receipt of the recommendations made by the officer entrusted with the work of preparing the reclassification.

page 497

PAPER,

The following paper was presented: -

Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1925, No. 98.

page 497

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Motions (by Mr. Bruce) agreed to -

That, unless otherwise ordered, Government business shall take precedence on all sitting days except Thursdays, when general business shall take precedence until6.30 p.m.

That on Thursday in each week, unless otherwise ordered general business shall be called on in the following order, viz. : -

On one Thursday -

Notices of Motion

Orders of the Day.

On the alternate Thursday -

Orders of the Day.

Notices of Motion

page 497

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Motion (by Dr. Earle Page) agreed to -

That hehave leave to bring in a bill for anact to amend the Income Tax Assessment Act 1922-1924.

page 497

LAND TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Motion (by Dr. Earle Page) agreed to -

That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act to amend the Land Tax Assessment Act 1910-1924.

page 497

DISTILLATION BILL

Motion (by Mr. Pratten) agreed to -

That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act to amend section 4.0 of the Distillation Act 1901-1923.

page 498

CUSTOMS BILL

Motion (by Mr. Pratten) agreed to -

That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act to amend the Customs Act 1901-1923.

page 498

POWER ALCOHOL BOUNTY BILL

In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :

Motion (by Mr. Pratten) agreed to -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act -to provide for the payment of bounty on the manufacture of power alcohol.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended, and resolution adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Pratten and Dr. Earle Page do prepare and bring in a hill to carry out the forogoing resolution.

Bill presented by Mr. Pratten, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr. PRATTEN (Martin- Minister for

Trade and Customs) [11.26]. - I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Although this bill may be described as modest, yet it may develop one of the most important industries in Australia. It provides for the payment of a bounty of 4d. a gallon on power alcohol derived from certain cultivated crops, namely, cassava, sweet potatoes, arrowroot, or other approved starch-bearing plants. In view, of the potential importance of this subject, Imake no apology for giving the House as much information as is in the possession of the Department respecting the position of this proposed industry and its needs. It is not proposed to include in the provisions of this measure power alcohol made from molasses, a substance which is at present being used to a certain extent for making power alcohol. The evidence indicates that the production of fuel alcohol from this source costs less than that from cultivated crops. The available supplies of molasses, however, are not sufficient to form an adequate basis for a scheme which aims eventually, I hope, at the substitution of Australian power alcohol for imported petroleum liquid fuel. While it is intended to use molasses so far as possible, yet a substantial development of the power alcohol industry can be achieved only by the cultivation of suitable crops grown for the purpose. It is only by this means that a supply of material commensurate with the requirements of the industry can be provided. The bill limits payment of the bounty to a period of five years from the 1st of January, 1926. The amount of bounty payable in any one year must not exceed £5,000. In the event of this amount not being expended in any year, the unexpended balance will be made available for the subsequent year, in addition to the stipulated amount of £5,000. The total amount of bounty payable during the period of five years cannot, however, exceed £25,000. In order to safeguard the interests of the growers, the bill contains a provision to empower the Minister to withhold payment of the bounty unless he is satisfied that the growers of the crops have received a reasonable price for their produce. It is also provided that a proportion of not less than half of the bounty must be passed on to the growers, in addition to the price which the industry could reasonably pay for its raw material without bounty. The usual provision is inserted to authorize the Minister to refuse payment of bounty unless the persons employed in the industry are paid the rates of wages prescribed by the competent industrial authority. The position will be, therefore, that not less than one-half of the bounty - that is, not less than 2d. per gallon - will be an additonal return to the grower. The cost of methylation will be covered by1d. per gallon. The remaining1d. per gallon of the 4d. per gallon bounty will also be available for the remuneration of the growers if this is necessary to ensure them a reasonable price. The employees directly engaged in the industry will also be sure of payment for their services at the prescribed rates of wages. The bill provides the powers necessary for the protection of the revenue, and for compelling compliance with its requirements, and the regulations made under it. I might here mention for the information of honorable members that power alcohol is classed as methylated spirits under the excise tariff, and is not liable to the payment of excise duty. The import duty upon petrol and similar liquid fuels is1d. per gallon. Before delivery from Customs control the power alcohol produced must be denatured in accordance with standards prescribed for the purpose under the Spirits Acts by the admixture of methyl alcohol or wood naphtha to render it unfit for human consumption. The power alcohol so denatured is for use a3 a fuel in internal combustion engines. While it is possible to use the denatured alcohol as alcohol in engines designed for the purpose, it will be necessary to mix” with it a proportion of petrol or a similar petroleum spirit oil before it can be used for the ordinary engines. The mixture will contain from 60 per cent, to 70 per cent, of alcohol. It is quite unnecessary for me to. dwell at any length on the vital part which liquid fuel plays in the industrial life of all nations, and of its still more vital importance in times of national crisis. . One of the most striking characteristics of these times is the intense rivalry which exists between the nations to gain possession or control of existing oil-fields, and to discover fresh deposits. The keenness displayed by practically all the nations of the world in this matter bears manifest witness to the essential importance of liquid fuels for national wel: rare, progress and security. It also implies a” keen recognition of the fact that the known deposits of well oil are not unlimited, and that, with the rapidly increasing rate of world-wide consumption, the exhaustion of the existing deposits looms up as a decided possibility within a measurable period of time. This possibility has incited a keen application of experimental research with the object of discovering a satisfactory substitute for petroleum fuel oils.

Mr PRATTEN:
NAT

– I shall refer later to the part that that very estimable body took in developing these proposals. The unlimited supply of material available for the production of alcohol has led to extensive investigations of the practicability of its use as a suitable substitute. The United States of America is specially active in this field. Great Britain has also been devoting special attention to the subject. Among the British concerns which have taken up the matter is the International Sugar and Alcohol Company of London, a branch of the Distillers Limited, which is a very powerful company in the distilling industry of Great Britain. This company, with its parent company, has been associated for some years with the production of alcohol for power purposes, and its investigations have extended to the experimental production of suitable crops in different countries. These operations have necessitated the organization of technical staffs of highly-trained experts, and the company is, therefore, thoroughly equipped with complete information regarding the most suitable crops and the best technical methods for their conversion into alcohol. A representative of the company has carefully investigated the possibility of establishing the power alcohol industry in Australia, and as a result of his investigation, his company has decided that Queensland offers the most favorable opportunity for conducting,- on a sufficiently large scale, an experiment for the purpose of ascertaining whether, as a practical fact, fuel alcohol can be produced in Australia at a cost which will enable it to’ compete with petroleum fuel oils.

Mr Prowse:

– Why has the Government excluded every other state from the benefits of this measure. Has the possible use of the “blackboy or grass tree, for making power alcohol been investigated?

Mr PRATTEN:

– I shall deal with that later. An arrangement has been made for erecting a plant at Sarina for making conclusive experiments. The sugar industry of Queensland offers special facilities for initiating the industry, as it will supply in the form of molasses a proportion of the raw material required. The erection of a distillery in conjunction with the existing sugar mill at Sarina will enable part of the sugar milling machinery to be utilized in the production of the alcohol at a period of the year in which the machinery is at present idle. Tha cultivated crops- in the first place, cassava, which I understand is a sago-like root plant - can be more economically and more abundantly produced in a tropical climate. The Queensland Government, after examining the scheme, was so satisfied with the possibilities that it offered for extending agricultural settlement in the state, that it undertook to advance the sum of £25,000 to enable a Queensland sugar refining company to enter into an agreement with the International Sugar and Alcohol Company to erect a distillery at their mill for the production of power alcohol from their waste molasses and from cassava crops grown on the adjacent lands. The British Company proposes, for a start, to invest at least £50,000 in the enterprise. If the experiment is as successful as their investigation leads them to expect it will be, their representative states. tha>t the capital- eventually invested will not be less than £1,000’,000. I wish fo make it quite clear to honorable members that thi3 is only an experiment - an ambitious one, ifr is: true, boat, still,, only that. I am confident that honorable members will recognize that the proposal to establish tie production in Australia of fuel alcohol from crops specially grown for the purpose, and thus to> make- Australia less- dependent on Overseas supplies of liquid fuels, merits full consideration and every assistance that can- reasonably be offered. Although our dependence on oversea supplies is’ unfortunate;, it is unavoidable’ at present; but we cannot as good Australians regard! the fact with any feelings of satisfaction. Apart from considerations of national security, the fact that we are paying, abroad many millions of pounds a year for our supplies of this, essential commodity should incite us to leave nothing undone in the endeavour- to meet our requirements by the- utiliza- tion of our own- resources. In the year 1923-24 our. importations of petrol and similar petroleum oils amounted, to about 67.000.000 gallons, for which we paid £4,200,000. Those figures were greatly exceeded in the six months following the close of that- financial year. In reply to a question asked in this House the other day,. I stated the importations for the calendar year 1924, which included’ six months of the financial year 1923-4, and six months of the uncompleted financial year 1924-25. The importations, for that period amounted to the extraordinary total of nearly S2,000,000 gallons. The importations of this commodity into Australia in 1921-22 were only 34;000,000 gallons, of a value of. £3,100,,000, so that it will be seen that in- a little over two years the quantity of petrol and similar commodities inn ported increased by nearly 150- per cent. It is quite unnecessary for me to point out the very great advantage .that would accrue to Australian, land settlement if the money spent on imported petrol were employed in the production of crops for conversion into fuel alcohol.. While we cannot expect that in th© immediate future fuel alcohol will be produced: in1 Australia in sufficient quantities te replace a substantial proportion, of the importations- of petrol, it will be readily recognized! that the success of the experiment which this bill’ is designed) to- assist will open the way to supplying an ever-increasing proportion of our requirements of liquid fuel. The benefits of such a. development can scarcely be over-estimated1. The company purposes- to distil, after using up the. whole of the molasses available within transit area of the distillery, from cassava-, a crop which has been grown in Queensland in’ the past, and for the cultivation of which that state is eminently suited. To produce sufficient cassava to provide material for, say, 81,000;000’ gallons- of liquid fuel, which is the quantity we at present import, would necessitate the cultivation of over 150,000 acres of land. Even if only a considerable proportion of this area were thus utilized, its use would be a very valuable contribution to the solution of the problem of settling the tropical parts of our continent. The known supplies of well oil are not inexhaustible. Experts even now are considering the date when this source of power will be exhausted, but the production of fuel alcohol from annually grown crops is limited only by the extent of suitable land available, a limitation which is scarcely likely to affect Australian production. Our almost total ‘dependence on foreign countries for a commodity so vital to the defence and industrial systems of the Commonwealth as liquid fuel can only be- acquiesced in- by the people of Australia after every avenue has been explored which gives a chance of relief from such atn unsatisfactory position. On this ground alone, if on no other, any reasonable assistance that can be given to the industry in its initial difficulties is fully justified The proposal to pay a bounty of 4d. per gallon- on fuel alcohol is entirely in accord with the past policy of Parliament. In pursuit of the same objective,, a bounty, of SiA. per gallon has- been paid for some years on crude oil derived from Australian shale deposits. The amount of bounty paid during the last five years has been £68,000. During the war, the shale oil industry was of very material benefit to this. community. Boring operations for well oil in Papua have been subsidized,. a.ind the Government’s offer of an amount of £50,000 stands as a reward for tha discovery of well oil. in Australia. In addition, the Common-wealth Government has entered into a partnership agreement with the Anglo-Persian Oil Company for the purpose of establishing refineries in the Commonwealth for the treatment of imported crude petroleum oil, thus making provision for stocks being available in times of national crisis. In reply to the interjection of the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin), I should say that the question of the production and suitability of power alcohol for use as an engine fuel was extensively investigated in 1917 by a special committee of the Advisory Council of Science and Industry. In the course of its report, the committee declared that alcohol was in every way suitable as a liquid fuel, and possessed certain advantages over petrol. Its report contained the following statement relating to the production of power alcohol from cultivated crops : -

The development of. the cultivation of crops for the manufacture of power alcohol is likely to -play an important, or oven essential, part in a complete agricultural policy. It may. lead to the cultivation of areas it naui ted -for other crops, .and may assist in the “ diversification “ of the agricultural industry. Certain crops grown as a raw material for the manufacture of alcohol could ‘be used as stock feed in lames of (drought. The importance of dc veil oping the industry on a co-operative basis must not be overlooked. In this way, the spent mash could bo used for the purpose of stock feed, and the manurial values thus retained, while the alcohol .could be distilled and used, at any rate in part, in the district in which the raw material is produced, thus effecting a saving in transportation charges.

The committee recommended that, a:? an offset against the extra cost caused by fiscal restrictions on the manufacture of alcohol, an allowance at the rate of 3d. per gallon should be granted by the Commonwealth Government on power alcohol denatured by certain prescribed methods, and that, in addition, a bonus of 3d. per gallon should be paid to encourage its manufacture and to develop the primary industries on which the supply of the necessary raw material depends. After this exhaustive investigation and recommendation, relating to a total bounty of 6d, per gallon on power alcohol made in Australia, the proposals have crystallized into tha bill now before the House, which provides for a bounty of 4d. per gallon, of which Id. per gallon will be for denaturing, 2d. per gallon will go to the growers to encourage them to cultivate and develop the crops, amd Id. will be retained, probably, for the further encouragement of the growers in that directum. This is no airy scheme or mere pious aspiration. A representative has come to Australia from one of the strongest financial corporations in the United Kingdom. The Queensland ‘Government has investigated the scheme, and. is prepared to assist the industry by advancing £25,000 to the sugar-mill where the first distillery will be erected. The company has offered, after an exhaustive investigation of the proposition, to ii.vest £50,000, and has said to the Common.wealth “Help us in this great experiment, and if we do not produce, you, of course, do not pay.”

I should like to say a word or two with regard to the position of the mills, .and to explain to the House why the experiment is not based upon mollases anstead of starch-bearing crops. The question naturally arises, is not molasses the material on which the industry should be established, and should not the bounty be paid on spirit produced from molasses? I know, that this view has been strongly stated by gentlemen connected with the sugar industry, and I shall endeavour to clear up some misunderstanding.: regarding it. The Australian production of sugar last season was approximately 500,000 tons. That quantity would produce about 125,000 tons of molasses. As 1 ton of molasses will produce 65 gallons of 95 per cent, alcohol, the total possible production of power alcohol from molasses is 125 multiplied by 65, or a little .over 8,000,000 gallons. The quantity of petrol and other petroleum spirit imported into Queensland last year was nearly 9,000,000 gallons. If, therefore, all the molasses produced were available for distillation, the quantity of fuel alcohol that could be distilled would be about equal to the quantity required in Queensland alone.

But owing to the distribution of the sugar mills the production of molasses is spread over localities separated from each other by hundreds of miles; and it is necessary that the distilleries should be situated in the localities where the raw material is produced, for the high freights charged for transport over long distances effectively limit the area from which it can be drawn. Only a very small proportion of the total quantity of molasses produced is available for distillation at a given point, and no request has been made for the payment of a bounty on power alcohol produced from molasses, because when the distillery is erected it will consume, without cost to the Federal Government, the whole of the molasses available within the district. The company that proposes to expend £50,000 in erecting a distillery for the production of this spirit intends to start operations in the neighbourhood of Mackay. It is estimated that in this district 10,000 to 15,000 tons of molasses are produced, or about 10 per cent, of the total production this season in Queensland. As much of this material as is available will be used for the production of alcohol, but no bounty will be payable for power alcohol produced from molasses, nor has a bounty been asked for: presumably it is not required. If the production of this spirit is ever io reach a stage when it will displace any considerable proportion of the present consumption of petrol, it must run into many millions of gallons. It is clear, therefore, that the supply of molasses must be supplemented by an abundant, production of starch-bearing material grown for the purpose in the immediate vicinity of the distillery. If the industry had to rely on molasses alone its scope would be so limited that the enterprise could not be other than a failure. It may also be pointed out that it would be quite an unpayable proposition to grow sugar cane specially for .the production of spirit. The Queensland Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Forgan Smith) recently stated that the estimated cost of producing a ton of cane was £1 17s. 2d., while the estimated cost of producing a ton of cassava was £1 7s. 2d., the relative value of cassava and sugar for the production of alcohol being two to one in favour of the former. Honorable members will see, therefore, that on that assumption 1 ton of cassava, so far as the production of power alcohol is concerned, is worth much more, and costs much less than a ton of cane. Since sugar cane must be primarily grown for the production of sugar, the production of molasses is necessarily proportionate to the output of sugar, while the production of cassava will be limited only by the consumption of the fuel alcohol obtained from it. It cannot, however, be too strongly emphasized that the profitable production of fuel alcohol in Australia is still in the experimental stage. I am informed that the distillery to be erected at the Plane Creek Sugar Mill, in the vicinity of Mackay, if it proves profitable, will be the forerunner of many similar plants.

I now intend to say a few words as to why alcohol manufactured from prickly pear has not been included . in the bill. Most honorable members will realize that it is highly desirable to make power alcohol from indigenous plants. The whole proposal has been carefully examined by the Tariff Board, and the original scheme of the International Sugar and Alcohol Company has been somewhat modified. The company originally asked for a bounty of 4d. a gallon, allowing Id. for methylation, and 1½d. to the grower, the remaining lid. to be kept in hand.

Mr PROWSE:

– Is it proposed to give a monopoly of this business to one . company ?

Mr PRATTEN:

– That is impossible. If -any good Australian approaches the Government with any reasonable scheme, his proposal will be carefully investigated. The subject of the production of power alcohol from prickly -pear, and the provision of a bounty on the spirit produced, was brought before the Tariff Board by the Power Alcohol Company Limited of Sydney. The information supplied by th-3 applicant was insufficient to enable the board to ascertain what bounty would be required, and how it should be allocated. The applicant could neither state the price at which it would be possible to sell the spirit, nor what amount of bounty would be necessary to enable the industry to be established. The experiments in the production of the spirit from prickly-pear have been limited to laboratory tests. The applicant pointed out that the company had had a model plant made for the purpose of giving a demonstration before the Prickly-pear Commission, and that the results would be made known to the Tariff Board _at a later date. In the circumstances, of course, the board was unable to make any definite recommendation, but it may be taken for granted that, should an3’ definite commercial proposition be placed before the Government by any company or association of individuals, it will receive the most sympathetic consideration of Ministers and honorable members generally. Since no definite business-like request has been made to the. Government, and the tests so far have been confined to the laboratory, it ha9 still to be proved whether or not any tangible result can be obtained, but we hope that some development will take place in that direction.

Mr Fenton:

– Can the Minister state what percentage of power alcohol can be extracted from cassava, and in what countries the experiments have been made ?

Mr PRATTEN:

– I am unable to supply all of that information, but the representative of the International Alcohol Company comes from London, and has consulted the Queensland Government and the- agricultural experts in that state. After a very close examination of the whole position, the company is willing to invest £50,000 of its own money, and simply asks the Commonwealth Government to pay a bounty on the production. I think, therefore, that honorable members may assume that the proposition has been thoroughly investigated, particularly as the company has made large quantities of power alcohol in Great Britain, and is actively engaged in developing the industry in other parts of the Empire.

Mr Prowse:

– Has the Minister taken into consideration the experiments made in Western Australia with the “blackboy ‘’ ’ or grass tree 1

Mr PRATTEN:

– So far as the Tariff Board is concerned, there is no official information on that matter in my department. I started out by saying that this is a modest little bill for what I hope will be the beginning of a great developmental enterprise, and there is nothing to prevent further application being made for assistance in developing the industry in other directions.

Mr Thompson:

– Why have sweet potatoes been included and ordinary potatoes excluded?

Mr PRATTEN:

– Ordinary potatoes are not excluded, because the bill covers starch-bearing products of all descriptions. It will be obvious to the honorable member that, if the estimate of the cost of production of cassava is about £1 7s. 2d. a ton, ordinary potatoes cannot be profitably grown for the manufacture of power alcohol.

I have a few figures that may interest the House regarding the ‘present production of motor spirit in Australia. The estimated importation of petrol and similar fuel oils in this country for the year ending 31st December, 1925, is over 80,000,000 gallons, and the quantity of benzol to be produced from coal this year by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company is estimated at about 1,500,000 gallons. The Colonial Sugar Refining Company makes a small quantity which may be put down at an average *of 25,000 gallons a year. Our acetone factory also makes a small quantity of power alcohol which may be put down at 10,000 gallons. Mr. John Feil has great hope in connexion with the new development of his shale industry at Newnes that he will be eventually producing 4,000,000 gallons of motor spirit in a year. The Commonwealth Oil Company hopes to increase its production this year from 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 gallons. If all these hopes are realized we shall have a production within Australia next year of, say, 10,000,000 gallons of liquid fuel. Honorable members will see what great possibilities there are in this proposed development. I feel that each of us is prepared to wish the enterprise well, and hope that it will be successful. I believe it is a reasonable thing for the Commonwealth, acting with the distillery people in Great Britain, and the Queensland Government to give the assistance asked for after the expenditure of £75,000 has been made, and power alcohol has been produced as a result.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Forde) adjourned to a later hour, vide page 513.

page 503

EXPORT GUARANTEE BILL

In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :

Motion (by Mr. Bruce) agreed to -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of moneys he made for the purposes of a Bill for an Act to amend section 5 of the Export Guarantee Act 1024.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended, and resolution adopted.

That Mr. Bruce and Dr. Earle Page do prepare and bring in a Bill’ to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill presented by Mr. Bruce and read the first time.

Second Reading

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minisiater and Minister for External Affairs · Hinders · NAT

– I move-

That the Bill be now read a second time.

This is a measure to amenda section of the Export Guarantee Act which was passed last session.It will be within the recollection of honorable members that the purpose of that Act was to assist the exportation and marketing of Australian products. The sum of £500,000 was set aside out of the preceding year’s surplus, and made available for that object, and in addition power wasgiven for the guaranteeing of advances made in respect of produce put into the hands of any export control board that might be established. But inthe operation of the Act a serious difficulty has arisen. Last year the position of the growers of doradilla grapes was found to be a very difficult one , and certain assistance was granted to them. As a result of that assistance the doradilla grape-growing industry was benefited to a greatextent. A large quantity of spirit was made from the grapes, but it could only , be sold, at a reasonable price, by an increased production of sweet wines requiring it for fortification purposes. An expansion in the pr oduction of sweet wine has been brought about, and there is a bigger market for such wine today as the result of a bounty given under another Act. It is hoped thatthe trade will be further expanded, as a result of preference shown bo this product on the British market. The assistance to be given to the doradilla grape-grower was dependent upon the marketing of his produce overseas, but when an endeavour was made to obtain that assistance, it was held by the Law Department that it was not the produce of the doradilla grape that was being exported, and that it was not for the marketing of the spirit madefrom the doradilla grape that money was being asked, because that spirit ‘had gone into the sweet wine, which it had been used to fortify. It was held that a product forming part of some form of production on the marketing of which we wereexpending money, could notbenefit from the moneys available under the Export Guarantee Act.

Mr Charlton:

– It as really a legal difficulty that has arisen.

Mr BRUCE:

– Yes. To meet it the bill amends section 5 of the Export Guarantee Act by omitting from subsection 1 the words, “in relation to the export and marketing of primary produce,” and inserting in their stead the words -

  1. in relation to the export and marketing of primary produce; and
  2. to the growers of primary produce used or to be usedin the manufacture or preparation of goods of a kind suitable for export from the Commonwealth .

That amendment will give us the power to make these payments out of the funds available. It gives effect to the intention of the act by making it of assistance in bringing about the production of commodities to be used in connexion with the manufacture of other commodities suitable for export. The assistance to be given amounted to about £24,000, and the growers of doradilla grapes would have been in a very embarrassing position if they had.been unable to receive that assistance. Webelieved that there was power under the act to pay this money, but it having been found that there was not that power, we now desire to amend theact toenable us to make these payments.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and reported from committee without amendment or debate; report adopted.

Bill read athird time.

page 504

NATIONAL DEBT SINKING FUND BILL

Second Reading

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · Cowper · CP

– I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

This amending measure is made necessary by the fact that we are beginning to receive some of the German reparations, and it is the policy of the Government to pay receipts from that source into the National Debt Sinking Fund in order to reduce our war indebtedness.

Mr Maxwell:

– What amount of reparations has the Commonwealth received ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– We received £135,000in March, and a further £122,000 yesterday. It now seems certain that, following the acceptance by Ger- many of the experts’ plan of reparations known as the Dawes report, the Commonwealth may rely on receiving regular cash payments as its share of reparations. It is the aim of the Government to reduce as speedily as possible Australia’s large burden of war debt, and it is considered that extraordinary receipts arising out of the war should be hypothecated to that purpose. Indeed, it is .singularly appropriate that reparation moneys received from ex-enemy countries should be applied towards the extinction of the debt created for the purpose of prosecuting the late war. Honorable members will recollect that a committee of experts was appointed to suggest a practical plan which would enable Germany to balance her budget, stabilize her currency, and meet her obligations to the Allies under the Treaty of Versailles. The determination of the amount to be paid annually by (Germany involved two leading considerations; first, how rauch could be raised and set aside in Germany for the .Allies without imperilling the country’s financial position, and, secondly., how much would it be possible for Germany to transfer to- her creditors abroad. The experts came to the conclusion that, following the arrangements made for floating a German loan -abroad, the establishment of the Reichsbank and the return of the currency to a gold basis, Germany would be able to pay the following amounts during the first five years.:- 1924-25, £50,000,000 ; 1925-26 £61,000,000; 1926-27, £60,000,000; 1927-

28, £87,500,000; 1928-29, £125,000,000.

It is calculated that the annuity for 1928- 29, namely, £125,000,000, will become the standard annual payment .thereafter. This payment, however, is subject to increase if the index embodied in the experts’ report shows that the prosperity of Germany has advanced. The reparations are payable in German currency, and the Reparations Transfer Committee has the responsibility of deciding to what extent the amounts can be transferred to the Allies by deliveries in kind or in cash, without endangering the stability of the German currency. In sonic quarters it is believed that it may not be possible to transfer mors than £50,000,000 annually, at _ any rate for some years. The annual payments by Germany include all Treaty charges which, in addition to reparations proper, inda de the cost of armies of occupation, the Belgian war debt, expenses of control commissions, clearing-house char,ge3, restitution of identifiable objects, &c. The amount applied to the Treaty requirements other than reparations proper is to be a first charge upon the annual payment by Germany. These .are to be allotted by the Reparations Commission, and the balance remaining will be distributed to the Allies on a fixed basis. Great Britain’s share will be 22 per cent., and the Commonwealth will receive 4.35 per cent, of the amount allocated to the British Empire. The annuities will be paid by Germany either in cash or delivered in kind. During the earlier years, when deliveries in kind will predominate, the Dominions will be paid their proportions of cash available, and credited with their proportion of deliveries in kind. The latter credits will :be paid in later years as cash reparation receipts are available. Honorable members will realize how difficult it is to estimate the amount that will he credited to the Commonwealth in respect of reparations. However, making a reasonable allowance for, alternatively, the minimum and maximum nonreparation charges, the share of reparations to be allotted to the Commonwealth will be -

Having made a rough estimate of the amount of reparation moneys to be credited to the Commonwealth, it is quite impossible to forecast in what periods, and in what amounts the cash will be paid. As I have already stated, we have received two amounts this year, totalling £.257,000.

Mr Fenton:

– How much is Australia entitled to get?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– The agreed amount of reparations to be paid by Germany under the Treaty of Versailles was £6,600,000,000, of which Australia’s share would have been £63,000,000. But in lieu of a fixed sum, the Dawes’ plan provides for a definite annual payment extending over a term of years, which has not yet been determined. This bill is to giro authority for the payment of the3e reparation receipts into the national debt sinking fund. That is the main purpose of the measure; but advantage is being taken of the opportunity to make two other amendments of the act to provide for the payment into the sinking fund of (a) all moneys received from the states as sinking fund contributions in respect of. loans by the Commonwealth to the states; and (b) such moneys as the Treasurer may determine to pay out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, in addition to the regular annual contributions already provided for in the act. During this financial year the Commonwealth borrowed £10,300,000 for the states, and it was agreed between them and the Commonwealth that all future loans shall be subject to a sinking fund contribution of 10s. per cent. per annum. This amendment will enable us to pay that contribution into the national debt sinking fund, so that there will be unified control by the trustees of that fund. In regard to the second provision for payments into the sinking fund out of revenue in excess of the annual contributions provided for in the act, the Government last year applied £4,915,755 of the surplus revenue to debt redemption. That was done under the authority of the War Loans Redemption and Conversion Act and the War Gratuity Act. But it is highly desirable that such moneys shall be handled by the National Debt Commission, so that there shall be only one authority operating the fund and repurchasing securities. The proposed amendment of the law will enable that to be done.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- I do not anticipate that there will be any opposition to the principle embodied in the bill. We all are glad that a certain amount of reparations money is being received from Germany, but the Treasurer made it clear that these payments may be made either in cash or in kind.If, as is probable,we receive future payments in kind, the benefit to be derived by Australia will be questionable. The receipt of large quantities of goods from Germany will involve a corresponding diminution of work in the production of similar commodities in Australia. Therefore, reparations may not be as good a windfall as they appear at first sight. Australia is to receive a certain proportion of all reparations paid to Great Britain. Of course, if Great Britain paid the Commonwealth its share in cash, we should be very glad to receive the money. But if the Mother Country has to accept from Germany millions of pounds worth of goods, what will happen to the British worker? Nobody imagines that Germany will pay all the reparations in gold. It will pay in manufactured articles which the Allies will be compelled to receive. When I was in England last year millions of people were unemployed and dependent upon the Government dole, largely because of the use of German goods, and’ the consequent depression of British industries. That state of affairs must continue if reparations amounting to millions of pounds per annum are to be received in kind. The disability experienced in Great Britain will be felt to a more limited extent in Australia if it too receives reparations in the form of manufactured goods. We hold Germany to account for the great burden imposed upon us in connexion with the war, but it is doubtful whether reparations will be to us the advantage that wo anticipated. Certainly if they cause stagnation in local industries and unemployment throughout the country, Australia will not benefit from such payments. Of course, I am anxious that the Commonwealth shall receive all the reparations money that is available, but if it is not received in cash it may be a danger, rather than a comfort, to the Commonwealth. I doubt whether reparations in kind would be helpful to the primary producers. A certain quantity of goods must be sent from Great Britain to balance our exports, and if, in addition, we have to receive large quantities of goods from Germany as reparations, the balance of trade will turn against the Commonwealth.

Mr Thompson:

– Would the honorable member say cash or nothing ?

Mr CHARLTON:

– No, but I see the difficulties that present themselves. The Dawes report does not specifically provide for cash. If Germany can pay cash, well and good; but I venture to say that she will not pay cash, and that the reparations will eventually be received in the form of goods. I have no idea how we came to receive cash payments for the first two instalments. Possibly Great Britain received goods from Germany and forwarded cash to us. Everybody knows that German iron and steel is being imported into England in ever” increasing quantities. The future will reveal whether we shall have to accept reparations in kind. The Treasurer has forewarned us by stating this may later be the case. 1 have nothing to say against the principle embodied in the bill. It is necessary that we should have a sinking fund and that any sums received by the Commonwealth should be paid into it. But it must not be taken for granted that, because we are paying so much annually into the fund, we are reducing 1he national debt. Although ‘we are providing a sinking fund to meet the existing national debt, yet at the same time we are increasing that debt by borrowing further sums of money. The Treasurer stated recently that the Government had proposed the national debt sinking fund. As a matter of fact, Mr. Watt, when Treasurer, in 1918, established the loan sinking fund. The measure then introduced into the House provided for the payment of 10s. per cent, to the sinking fund. The National Debt Sinking Fund Act . repealed the original act, but made no difference in the amount of money that had to be paid into the sinking fund. The credit for establishing the sinking fund cannot, therefore, be claimed by the present Government. This sinking fund has been in existence for a number of years, and large sums of money have been paid into it. In 1920-21 the payment to the sinking fund was £3,211,460; in 1921-2, £3,042,388; in 1922-3, £2,494,202; and in 1923-4, £2,547,823. The estimate for 1924-5 is £2,759,318. The total is, approximately, £13,000,000. The Commonwealth debt on the 30th June, 1921, was £401,720,024; on the 30th June, 1922, £416,070,509; and on the 30th June, 1923, £410,996,316. The present Government came into office in February, 1923. The amending National Debt Sinking Fund Bill was introduced by the Treasurer in June of that year. Yesterday the Treasurer stated that, owing to the operations of the Government, the national debt had been reduced during the last two years by £6,000,000. The Government took office in February of 1923, but the Treasurer cannot lay claim to any reduction of debt that took place prior to June, the end of that financial year. The public debt at that- time was £410,996,316. The following year it was £415,600,099. Notwithstanding the provision of the sinking fund, the public debt continues to increase. Up to the 31st March, 1925, the debt was £431,883,235, showing an increase of £20,000,000 in the indebtedness of this country over a period of two years. It is difficult for me to understand how the Treasurer arrives at a reduction in the national debt of £6,000,000 in two years, when during that period the total indebtedness of the Commonwealth increased by £20,000,000. There is room for explanation. I do not follow the Treasurer’s reference to the net national debt. Is he taking into consideration advances made to the states during his term of office, these sums to be eventually refunded ? If that principle is applied now, ib should have been applied to the period prior to this Government coming into office. If that had been done, I venture to say it would have made a material alteration to the figures supplied by former Treasurers. We must be guided by the figures made available respecting the national debt. These show clearly that from June, 1923, to March, 1925, the national debt has increased by £20,000,000. I place those figures before honorable members so that they may know the exact position. Many people who have read statements made in this House have come to the conclusion that the payment to the sinking fund is reducing the total debt of the Commonwealth. It reduces the existing debt, but it should be definitely understood by the, people thatowing to the Government continuing to borrow money, the national debt is being considerably increased, and from present appearances will continue to increase for some time.

Mr Thompson:

– There is a sinking fund for each debt.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Of course, bub the people are led to believe that because money is paid to a sinking, fund, the national debt is being correspondingly decreased. I should like to know how the Treasurer arrives at his statement thai the indebtedness of the Commonwealth had been reduced in the last couple of years. by £6,000,000. I fail to find that information in the official record. It appears to me that our indebtedness has increased rather than decreased during the last two years. Therefore, the Treasurer’s statement does not appear to reveal the true position. Under the bill, moneys that are returned by the states shall be paid into the sinking fund. This is the proper course to pursue, and this provision will meet with the commendation of honorable members. It is absolutely necessary that moneys received by the Commonwealth and paid into the sinking fund should be controlled .by the board appointed for this particular purpose. A reduction in the national debt would be appreciated by every one. It is intended that .the -.existing debt shall be wiped out in 50 years. That is, I .suppose, an actuarial estimate which will probably work out in practice. But ,as we are constantly borrowing additional moneys the national debt is not .being reduced. The Treasurer has stated that if we increase the national debt proportionately with the increase in population, there will be nothing much to complain about. I do not agree with him. I probably would agree if times were normal. During the war we had to borrow millions of money, and the national debt was consequently considerably increased. It would be interesting to know exactly what the national debt was prior to, and at the conclusion of, the war. The suggestion that we should increase the national debt in proportion to the increase in population does not appeal to me, especially in these abnormal times. We should endeavour to reduce the national debt, and this can be done only by exercising strict economy. Yesterday the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony) referred to the building of the railway from Yass to Canberra. I would point out that that railway .could be built and paid for out of revenue. We have had surpluses of £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 during the last few years, and there is no reason why this money should not be utilized to build this railway. The Treasurer, in every financial statement submitted by him, has indicated that the peak of the Customs revenue had been reached, and was certain to fall.

Dr Earle Page:

– It has been falling during the last few months.

Mr CHARLTON:

– That may fee so, but the fact remains that the estimate has been considerably exceeded. I submit that we should build public works, and ;pay for them out of unexpected surpluses Obtained through the Customs. The bill is a step in the right direction. I hope that the reparations payments will be made in cash, and not in goods. If Ger many insists on us accepting her goods, it will have a bad effect upon Australian industries.

Sitting suspended from 1 to &.15 p.m.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.- The points put to the Treasurer by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) require very careful consideration. I suppose that most Australians are anxious to receive as much as possible in reparations from Germany, but, like the Leader of the Opposition, I am rather apprehensive as to the form which these reparations will take. If the arrangement is made that we are to receive goods, I trust that goods of a kind that are not manufactured in Australia will be sent. I hope that we shall be able to exercise some discrimination in this matter. If goods of a kind that are manufactured in Australia are -sent here by Germany, our .own industries, will suffer seriously. I should like to .know whether such .goods would come through the British Governnent, which, as the principal party concerned, may receive all the reparation payments, and afterwards distribute to the dominions their respective proportions; or whether they would come to us direct from Germany. Whether they came direct or through the British Government, would they be dutiable like ordinary imports? These are aspects of the reparations problem which an alert Treasurer, and particularly an alert Minister for Trade and Customs, should be watching. Although the Treasurer is inclined to place a halo around his head for having made the Commonwealth Bank, as he says.. “ a bank of banks,” I wish, to remind him that, iu consequence of the present policy of its board of management, the Bank is making only very small contributions to our national debt sinking fund. Had it been permitted to carry on its business .om similar lines to those adopted by other banks, its profits would have been .much greater .than they have, been in the last few months. We have to remember that while Parliament provided that half the profits of the Bank should be paid into the national debt sinking fund, ait has since practically crippled the Bank .as a profit-making institution. I cannot understand why the Treasurer always hesitates to give credit to two institutions which, have made considerable payments! to the national debt sinking fund. One of these is the Commonwealth. Bank, and the other is the Notes Issue Board. The latter authority pays something like £1,100,000 annually into the fund.

Dr EARLE Page:

– That is paid intoConsolidated Revenue

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP; UAP from 1931

– But it actually goes into the national debt sinking fund. It is a good thing that it does. One of the original objects in establishing, the Commonwealth notes issue was to form, from its profits, the nucleus of a fund which it was hoped would ultimately extinguish our national debt. It is well known that one of the bitterest opponents to the proposal that the Government should take over the issuing of bank notes was Sir Joseph Cook. Subsequently, by the turn of the political wheel,- he became Commonwealth Treasurer, and on one occasion he was able to make the pleasing announcement in this House that he had discharged from the accumulated profits of the Notes Issue Fund a loan of £7,750,000 which had become due. Had the Commonwealth Bank and the Notes Issue Board been, permitted to work according to the intentions of their founders, we should have been able in time practically to cease contributing, from the general revenue to the national debt sinking fund. I trust that when more prosperous times arrive, we shall increase the 10s. per cent, payments to the national debt sinking fund that have been provided for. I shall take every opportunity that presents itself to protest against the way in which the Commonwealth Bank lias been crippled as a profitmaking institution. From some points of view, the Bank has been wrecked. I trust that the Treasurer will bear in mind what I have said in regard to reparation payments.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I understood the Treasurer to say that the £250,000 that had been received from Germany as reparations had been placed to the credit of the national’ debt sinking fund. Would it not have been better- to add the amount to our gold reserve? The Treasurer- is authorized to issue £4 worth of notes for every £1 of our gold reserve. Had he added this £250,000 to the gold reserve an extra £1,000,000 worth, of paper currency could have been made available. I do not desire to suggest anything, that will lessen the value of our notes;, but I know that business men frequently complain that insufficient currency is available. I believe that the Treasurer wishes to do what is best in the interests of the Commonwealth; but I ask whether he considered the wisdom of using these reparations payments as backing for an additional issue of notes? I am very glad that we are beginning to receive this money. I trust that as! it comes to hand the Government will take steps to reduce taxation.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · Cowper · CP

– I wish to reply briefly to some of the questions that have been asked. The honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton) inquired whether the £250,000 we have received from Germany for reparation has been paid in cash or in goods. We received that amount in the form of credit in London and not actually in gold. We have certain commitments in London, and we are able to make it available to meet them there.

Mr SCULLIN:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Was Great Britain paid in goods?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– She may have been, but we wish to get our payments in cash if we can. Those portions of the reparations payments which cannot be paid in cash, but which must be paid in kind, may involve goods which Germany cannot export at present. Credits will be given in regard to them, to be adjusted later. We shall be able to use whatever credits are made available in London to meet our own London payments. These remarks, of course, answer the questions asked by the honorable member for South Sydney (Mr. E. Riley). If gold had been sent to this country it would only have been paid out by the Commonwealth for some definite service, in which case there’ would be no inflation. But if notes were issued against it at the rate of £4 for every sovereign, there would be an inflation, of the currency, which would lead to increased prices, and lessened effective value of wages, and so a vicious circle would be set up. While our local holdings of gold against the note-issue only need be in the ratio of one sovereign to four £l-notes, I am glad to. say that, roughly, we hold one sovereign against every £2 in notes in circulation, or 48 per cent, in gold of the value of the notes issued. I should like to see the reserve made even stronger, because a time may come when it will be necessary to issue additional notes for some temporary purpose. If our holding of gold against the note3 already issued is substantial we should be able, in such circumstances, to issue additional notes without danger. Honorable members must recognize that we cannot safely increase the issue of notes unless we create more wealth; in other words, we must increase our production before we can safely increase our notes- issue. That is the only way in which we can keep prices stable, and ensure that the working man’s wages shall be effective,’ and without change in value.

As to the profits of the Commonwealth Bank, I point out that the bank was able to make huge profits during the war, and immediately afterwards, for the reason that it then held very large sums of Commonwealth loan money. Frequently large amounts were in it3 hands for many months, and it was able to use them without paying interest on them. Practically all our war borrowing has ceased since 1921. The bank is now only dealing with what are essentially its on funds. Sometimes the balance of Commonwealth money available to it is large, and sometimes it is small. The bank, of course, usually has a pretty good idea when the money will be required by the Government. That is’ one reason why the profits are actually smaller than formerly. There is another reason why the published profits and the profits that are being divided between the bank’s general reserves and the Commonwealth Sinking Fund are smaller. The present governor and the board of the bank, after the board’s appointment, examined the position, and decided that the bank ought to hold a special reserve against the risk of losses on certain kinds of business. They consulted me and the Auditor-General as to whether it was competent for them to establish that special class of reserve, and they are now building up a reserve that will enable the bank to function with its possible losses covered much more than it has done hitherto. The fact that £100,000 or so less is being paid into the sinking fund is, to my mind, much less important than the securing of the utmost stability of the bank.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mi’. Charlton) again emphasized this morning his views on the public debt. I said last night that, in my opinion, Australia should not borrow more money than we have the productive capacity to use, and that, if we borrowed more money than the increase in our population or of the labour available in this country would justify, we could not get more work done unless we increased mechanical power, or the number of hands available. That statement i3 generally true. In the ordinary course of things there must be a certain amount of unemployment, due to the uncertainties of ordinary business life, but the restriction of borrowing within the limits I suggest would tend to minimize it. The honorable gentleman said that- that would, only keep the public debt at the present rate per head of population. I admit that the present per capita rate is high, and I should like to see it much lower. One way to lower it is to secure as many migrants as possible. Our public debt, per head of population, however, is not stationary. The borrowing of State Governments during the last few years has increased the per capita debt considerably. Last year I brought forward a proposal to be discussed at the Loan Council to reduce the loan proposals to an amount that would ensure that there would be no increase in the debt per head of population, which would mean that the total annual interest bill would remain about £20,000,000. Although it is more desirable to reduce the debt per head, it would still be a good thing if we could at least keep it stationary. To do so has been the constant endeavour of this Government.

The Leader of the Opposition asked for certain information bearing upon the statement I made last night as to the net debt of the Commonwealth. I agree with him that the gross figures as published by the Commonwealth Statistician, and generally by others who make statements on the subject, are misleading, because some of the debt is duplicated, being attributed to both the Commonwealth and the states. This duplication amounts to £60,000,000 or £70,000,000. In every budget speech, however, since 1922. at any rate, the position has been made quite clear. The right honorable the Prime Minister, when he was Treasurer in 1922, pointed out in his budget speech that the gross debt was £416,000,000, and he explained that from that total the indebtedness of the states to the Commonwealth in respect of loans raised by the’ Commonwealth on their behalf in the early part of the war, and loans made by the Commonwealth to them on account of land settlement, should be deducted. That deduction makes a considerable diminution of the net debt of the Commonwealth. Next year it will be necessary to deduct a sum of £10,800,000 that the Common wealth raised for the states, and for which they have given us bonds, and arc finding both interest and sinking fund. This is a Commonwealth stock, but it is essentially a state debt. Events have indicated that the states will honour their obligations, for although they sometimes dispute the amounts charged on certain items they have always paid. The relations between the Commonwealth and the states in (hat regard have been entirely satisfactory, and I believe will remain so. No Government could afford to repudiate its debts.

Mr SCULLIN:
YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Are those figures included by the Commonwealth Statistician in both the statement of the Commonwealth indebtedness and that showing the state debts?

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– They are included twice in the total of over £1,000,000,000 that ha3 been quoted. In the year 1922, before I took office as Treasurer, the net debt was £341,000,000, and honorable members will see by referring to page 20 of the budget speech I delivered last year, that the net debt, calculated in exactly the same way, was then £335,000,000.

Mr Anstey:

– That proves that the honorable gentleman is doing what he charged the Prime Minister with doing - figure-faking!

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– It proves nothing of the kind.

Mr Charlton:

– If the honorable gentleman will take the year before that which he is quoting he will find that the debt Avas £335,371,000. He had nothing to do with the budget that year.

Dr EARLE PAGE:

– I had to do Avith it for six months. I have said that the net national debt of the Commonwealth on the 30th June, 1922, Avas £341,000,000, and that on the 30th June, 1924- or two years later - it Avas £335,000,000, that is £6.000,000 less. During the years 1922-23 and 1923-24 the sum of £7,000.000 was spent on reproductive works, and that money is included in the second total of £335,000,000. That expenditure is earning more than the interest payable on it. and did not increase the dead weight of public debt. I am very glad that the honorable member for Bourke has enabled me to make that quite plain to the House, and to have it recorded in Hansard. If honorable members will recall what has been done in the conversion of our war loans, they will see that I have correctly stated the position. About £40,000,000 of war loan money fell due in 1923. This

Government paid to the public that £40,000,000 in September, 1923, but we issued only £32,000,000 of stock, £8,000,000 of the loan not being re-issued. In 1924 a Avar gratuity loan Avas issued. We paid to the gratuity-holders £13,000,000, and Ave issued new stock to the amount of only £11,000,000. When this Government took office £72,000,000 Avas owing to the public for repayment this year, but now only £65,000,000 is owing. Let me conclude my speech by explaining the last method by which the public debt has been reduced. We have a sinking fund operating in respect of the British Avar debt, whereby, in two years, that debt has been reduced by £2,290,000 in all. If honorable members will add those figures together they will see clearly what has been taken off the dead weight of debt that earns nothing. On the other hand, we have expended about £7,000,000 on reproductive works, and that money is earning interest. In the two years from 30th June, 1922. to 30th June, 1924, there has been a definite reduction of the real net debt of the Commonwealth by £6,000,000.

The Leader of ‘the Opposition raised the question of the sinking fund. There is a great difference between the sinking fund now in existence and that created by Mr. Speaker when he was Treasurer. He made a very notable effort to pay off the public debt by a process of simple interest payments at the rate- of 10s. per cent. The present sinking fund explained in the budget speech of the Prime Minister, and subsequently by me in introducing the Sinking Fund Bill, is a fund built up on a compound interest basis, and it will automatically extinguish the debt in 50 years. We make no claim that this sinking fund is extraordinary or novel, but we claim that it is extraordinary in the history of the Commonwealth to reduce taxation and debt at the same time. That is a record of which few Governments in this country can boast, and one for which the people will give this Government credit.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and reported from committee without amendment or debate; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 512

HIGH COURT PROCEDURE BILL

SECOND Reading.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Mini*ter and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

– I move -

That tlie bill be now read a second time.

This is a bill to amend the existing law in regard to one point only. The act of 1921 amended the principal act to provide for the payment of interest upon a judgment of the High Court up to the time when it is satisfied; but the object sought to be attained was not achieved because of the impossibility of determining in advance what the amount of interest would be, and embodying it in the writ. The present bill has been brought down to remedy that defect. It makes it unnecessary to include the amount of interest in the writ itself, and enables’ the whole amount due to be collected by means of a -writ of execution. A plaintiff who has been successful is entitled to the amount of the verdict, and also to interest at the rate of 7 per cent. If not having been paid the full amount voluntarily, he endeavours to recover the amount of the judgment, together with interest to the date when the judgment is met, he will be able, when the present bill has become law, to take out a writ of execution covering both the judgment and the interest due.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Will the measure apply to the land tax judgment?

Mr BRUCE:

– To any judgment of the High Court.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- It seems’ that the only object of the bill is to provide for the collection by a successful litigant of the amount of interest due to him on a judgment, but I should like to be sure whether in any outstanding action against the Commonwealth Government itself, such as the Kidman-Mayoh case, this provision would apply, and whether under tlie present bill’ the Commonwealth would be able to recover the amount of the verdict together with 7 per cent, interest from the date of the judgment.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

’. - The measure does nothing 0:her than make perfectly certain that a plaintiff cannot be deprived of the full amount to which, his judgment entitles him, and that is the amount of the verdict plus 7 per cent, interest until payment has been made. Owing to the language of the amending act of 1921, which required that the amount of interest must be mentioned in the writ, there Avas a possibility of sums due not being recoverable by a plaintiff who had succeeded. The present measure merely ensures that the amount intended by the court to be paid shall be paid. It provides for no other alteration in the existing law.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2. (Interest on judgment.)

Mi-. WEST (East Sydney) [2.53].- Seven per cent, is too high a rate of interest to charge in these cases. The tendency nowadays is for the interest’ rates to be reduced. In many actions unsuccessful litigants may be unable to’ satisfy judgments of the court owing to their financial position, and they should not be penalized on account of their unfortunate predicament. Perhaps on looking, closely into the matter the Prime Minister will agree to reduce the interest rate.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

:- The bill deals only with a defect that has been discovered in the’ act of 1921. Parliament then deliberately decided, after full consideration of the matter, to provide for the payment of interest at the rate of 7 per cent. I cannot accept any amendment in the direction suggested by the honorable member.

Mr West:

– If the right honorable gentleman declines to propose suchan amendment, I realize that I am powerless to do so.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment: report adopted.

Bill (by leave) read a third time.

page 513

NORTHERN TERRITORY REPRESENTATION BILL

Motion (by Mr. Bruce agreed to -

That the request of the Senate, contained in its Message No. 1 for the resumption by the House of the consideration of the Northern Territory Representation Bill (1924), be complied with, and that a message be transmitted to the Senate acquainting it therewith, and that the resumption of the debate on the question, “ That the bill be now read a second time “ (the stage which the bill had reached last session), be made an order of the day for thenext sitting.

page 513

IANDS ACQUISITION BILL

Motion (by Mr. Bruce) agreed to -

That the request of the Senate, contained in its Message No. 2, for the resumption by the House of the consideration of the Lands Acquisition Bill (1924), be complied with, and that a message be transmitted to the Senate Acquainting it therewith, and that the second reading of the bill (the stage which the bill had reached last session) be mode an order of the day for the next sitting.

page 513

NATIONALITY BILL

Motion (by Mr. Bruce) agreed to -

That the request of the Senate contained in its message No. 3 for the resumption by the House of the consideration of the Nationality Bill(1923) be complied with, and that a message be transmittedto the Senate acquainting it therewith, and that the resumption of the debate on the question “ That the bill be now read a second time,” the stage which the bill had reachedlast session, be made an order of the day for the next sitting.

page 513

COMMONWEALTH RAILWAYS BILL

In Committee(Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s Message) :

Motion (by Mr. Hill) agreed to -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of moneys be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to amend section 14 of the Common wealth Railways Act 1917.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended, and resolution adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Hill and Mr. Bruce do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill presented by Mr. Hill, and read a first time.

page 513

POWER ALCOHOL BOUNTY BELL

Second Reading

Debate resumed(vide page503), on motion by Mr. Pratten -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

– I listened with interest to the speech delivered by the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Pratten) in moving the second reading of this bill, which I recognize is one of very great importance. I am sorry that this measure is brought on so hurriedly. I have not had time to study it properly or to get the views of those engaged in the sugar industry on it. It is undeniable that substantial benefits will follow from the successful establishment in Australia of the manufacture of power alcohol. The industry is one which should be most attractive to honorable members, no matter from which state they may come or to which party they may belong. The petrol used to-day in Australia comes to us from other countries. Australia depends for its supply of petrol almost exclusively upon imports, and we pay something like £7,000,000 per annum for approximately 70,000,000 gallons of petrol imported. We have to recognize the position in which Australia would be placed if the world’s supply of motor spirit were to give out, or if, in the event of war, the supplies we require, to the extent of from 60,000,000 to 80,000,000 gallons a year, were cut off. As Australians, we should strive to establish this industry in our own country on a sound basis. This is the first concrete proposal brought forward with that object in view, though suggestions have at times been received from different men concerning the manufacture of power alcohol in Australia, but nothing practical has been done. I must at this juncture give credit to Mr. Theo- doro, the ex-Premier of Queensland, who, when last in England, discussed this matter very fully with Mr. Board, the representative of the International Sugar and Alcohol Company Limited. At the instigation of Mr. Theodore, Mr. Board visited Australia with a view to inquiring personally into the manufacture of power alcohol in this country. When addressing a meeting of sugar-growers in Brisbane in February last, he gave credit to Mr, Theodore in this connexion in the following terms : -

With regard to tlie distillery which is to be erected at Sarina, it was the outcome of communications with Mr. Theodore in London last year. That gentleman had shown a remarkably quick appreciation of the proposals put before him as to the way in which the liquid-fuel problem could be handled in Australia.

Mr. Board had a promise made to him by Mr. Theodore in London that the Queensland Government would consider a proposition for the granting of a loan of £25,000 to the Plane Creek Sugar Mill for the purpose of establishing a distillery there. The Queensland Government has since granted the loan, or has made a promise to do so when called upon. In February of last year Mr. Theodore wrote a letter to the Federal Government to bring under the notice of the Minister concerned the fact that Mr. Board was in Australia, and expressing a wish that the Commonwealth Government would assist him in any way possible. I am pleased to see that the matter has been taken up by the Minister for Trade and Customs. While I can give general support to the bill he has introduced, I disapprove of certain of its details. My objections to the measure will be stated more fully when we reach the committee stage of the bill. At this juncture I meant to make it clear that I believe the bounty should not be limited to £5,000, which will only cover 300,000 gallons, and furthermore, it should be paid on power alcohol made from molasses. I think that more consideration than is proposed must be given to the growers of cassava, which, according to the Minister, will be the chief crop utilized in the manufacture of power alcohol, although there will also be available for the purpose about 125,000 tons of molasses per annum. Under clause 10 it is provided that-

The Minister may withhold the whole or any part of the bounty unless he is satisfied that a reasonable price was paid for the materials used in the manufacture of the power alcohol in respect of which bounty is claimed and that the price includes an amount which is the equivalent of not less than one-half of the bounty payable.

I consider that provision should be made in the bill giving the. Minister power to withhold the whole or any part of the bounty unless he is satisfied that the growers of the crop used in the manufacture of power alcohol are given a price based on the cost of its production. I trust that members of the Country party and certain other honorable members opposite will be prepared to support such a condition for the payment of the bounty. For too long a time assistance has been given to manufacturers and wealthy companies without definite provision having been made for a price based upon the cost of their production to be paid to the growers of the materials used in manufacture. I know, through traversing the country districts of Queensland where sugar is grown, that one of the chief causes of anxiety for the success of this scheme is that the sugar-growers will not grow cassava at the price which they are likely “to be asked to accept for it, namely, 19s. 6d. per ton. They say that such a price would not pay them, and they demand that the price they will be paid shall be based upon the cost of production. The Minister pointed out that it is proposed tinder the bill to give a bounty of 2d. per gallon to enable the distillers to pay the farmer an additional price for his crop; Id. per gallon to cover the cost of denaturing the alcohol; and Id. per gallon to be kept in hand by the company for payment to the farmers in the event of the price they have received being below the cost of production of the special crop selected for conversion into power alcohol. While I am glad to see the bill introduced, and have no desire to hinder its passage beyond widening its scope to include molasses, I recognize that the interests of the people in my electorate who will be growing cassava must be safeguarded. I hope that honorable members on both sides will lend their assistance to secure this. I think that at least 3d. per gallon should be granted to the farmer as an additional price for his crop. I understand that from 1 ton of cassava 39 gallons of power alcohol can be manufactured. It is considered that the highest price that can be paid for cassava without a bounty is 19s. 6d. per ton. Twopence per gallon on 39 gallons would amount to 6s. 6d., and that amount added to 19s. 6d. would bring the price to be paid to the grower of cassava up to £1 6s. per ton. Without a bounty it is considered that power alcohol could not be manufactured from cassava if the grower were granted any price higher than 19s. 6d. per ton. The Queensland Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Forgan Smith), in a statement, definitely asserted that the cost of producing a ton of cassava is £1 7s. 2d., as against £1 17s. 2d.; the cost of producing a ton of sugar cane. Certainly the farmers will not be satisfied with anything less than the cost of production, and according to the figure quoted by Mr. Forgan Smith a bonus at the rate of 2d. per gallon would not be sufficient to cover that. I think the farmer should be assisted by giving a bonus of 3d. per gallon, that will enable £1 9s. 3d. per ton to be paid to the grower; but this is a matter which can be settled when we get into committee. I know only too well the conditions prevailing in the sugar industry of Queensland when the milling companies were able to dictate to the sugar-growers the price they should accept for their cane. They fixed it as low as 10s. per ton, whilst to-day the average price paid throughout Queensland is 47s. per ton. This advance in the price paid for sugar cane is largely clue to the action of the Queensland Government in establishing cane price boards on which there are representatives of the sugar-growers and the millers, with an independent chairman.

Mr Gregory:

– That must be what has made sugar land so dear.

Mr FORDE:

– I am surprised that the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory), as a member of the Country party, claimed that the sugar-growers should not be represented on a board appointed to fix the price to be paid for their cane.

Mr Gregory:

– When I read of land having been sold for upwards of £150 per acre, I begin to wonder.

Mr FORDE:

– I do not think that sugar cane land reaches that price, but in any case objections of that kind will not help the sugar producer. Because of the system supported by honorable members opposite, a man sells his land for the highest price he can get, and lands about Bacchus Marsh and other places in Victoria are sold at considerably higher prices per acre than are realized for sugar lands in Queensland. If the growers of sugar cane and cassava are to be sweated in order to keep down the price of land, the power alcohol industry will be of no benefit to Queensland primary producers.

Mr Gregory:

– Would the honorable member apply the same argument to the dairy farmer ?

Mr FORDE:

– Yes, and honorable members on this side fought in this House to secure for the dairy farmer a price for his product based on the cost of production. More consideration than is proposed in the bill must be given to the growers of cassava. A bounty of 4d. per gallon should not be paid to a wealthy company unless attached to it is the definite condition that at least 3d. per gallon shall be paid to the growers of cassava. Moreover no monopoly should be given to any one company. The Minister for Trade and Customs said that under this measure no bounty will be paid in respect of power alcohol manufactured from molasses, and that he had received no request for such a bounty. At the present time I am awaiting information from the sugar interests of Queensland in regard to the matter, and when the bill is in committee I hope to be able to reply to that statement. As the bill was introduced only to-day, I have not been able to get a reply to my inquiries. The Minister stated, also, that thesugar mills in Queensland ask for a bounty only on power alcohol manufactured from cassava, sweet potatoes, or arrowroot. My opinion is that the bounty should apply to alcohol produced from molasses, because it is useless to deny that on account of over-production the sugar industry in Queensland is not in. a flourishing condition. Honorable members opposite may laugh at that statement, but they know nothing about the sugar industry. They believe all the misleading statements by Mrs. Glencross and others. I cannot understand why any honorable member should object to the Commonwealth paying a bounty of £5,000 per annum, or more, in order to establish the power alcohol industry.

Mr Mann:

– How does the honorable member know that there is any objection

Mr FORDE:

– I am told that certain honorable members object to the bounty.

Mr Seabrook:

– Other industries receive bounties.

Mr FORDE:

– Yes, the Commonwealth has already paid bounties under various statutes as follows - Shale Oil Bounty Act 1917-23, £29,900; Iron and Steel Products Bounty Act 1922, £412,604; Sulphur Bounty Act 1923, £48,103; Canned Fruit Bounty Act 1924, £114,210; Wine Export Bounty Act 1924, £26,740; Meat Export Bounty Act 1922-23, £118,638; and Cattle Export Bounty Act 1924, £4,521.

Mr Seabrook:

– The shale oil bounty is only 3d. per gallon, and this bill proposes a payment of 4d. per gallon for the production of a similar article. Surely the bounty should be the same in each instance.

Mr FORDE:

– The honorable member will have an opportunity of advancing that contention. The whole of the liquid fuel required by Australia cannot be produced from Tasmanian shale. Having regard to the amount which the Commonwealth has already paid in bounties, there can be no reasonable objection to the payment of an amount of £5,000 per annum for five years to establish the very important industry of producing power alcohol. Mr. A. V. Board, the representative of the International Sugar and Alcohol Company, when in Australia, said -

My investigations have been encouraging indeed. In fact, I see no reason why the bulk of the liquid fuel consumed in Australia should not be produced within its own boundaries. I estimate that to do this would require from 80.000 to 100,000 acres of cassava.

Mr. Board pointed out that if 100,000 acres were planted with cassava, all the power alcohol required by Australia could be supplied; but why not pay the bounty on power alcohol made from molasses. That would overcome the menace of over-production of sugar, and, according to the manager of the Mulgrave Mill, would enable the mills to pay £2 Os. 6d. for cane, as against 6s. 2d. per ton for cane used in the manufacture of the exportable surplus. If we pay to the grower of cassava a price based on the cost of production, sufficient of the plant will be grown to supply an additional crop to all the distilleries that may undertake the production of power alcohol in

Queeusland. The Minister rightly stated that this is merely an experiment. If it proves successful, many distilleries will be established throughout Queensland, and, as the company represented by Mr. Board is prepared to invest £50,000 in the industry, and the Queensland Government is willing to lend £25,000, this Parliament should not hesitate to grant a bounty of £5,000 per annum. Unfortunately, that is not enough, and I think it would be wise if the whole matter were referred to the Institute of Science and Industry for report. I am glad to know that the Queensland Government has sent Inspector Brookes, of the Department of Agriculture, to Java, to inquire into the growing of cassava there.

Mr Mann:

– Is any grown in Queensland at the present time?

Mr FORDE:

– No. Some years ago, about 20,000 tons was produced in the vicinity of Mackay, but in recent years none has been grown. We hope that when Inspector Brookes returns from Java he will be able to instruct the farmers of Queensland in regard to the cultivation of this crop. It is estimated that the average yield will be from 8 to 12 tons per acre, and that 1 ton of cassava will produce about 39 gallons of power alcohol. One ton of sugar cane yields from 20 to 22 gallons of power alcohol, whereas 1 ton of molasses produces about 65 gallons of 95 per cent, power alcohol. From every ton of sugar cane about 5 cwt. of molasses is obtained. The estimated cost of producing sugar cane is £1 17s. 2d. per ton, and as it is estimated that the company will not be able to pay more than 10s. per ton for cane to be utilized in the manufacture of power alcohol, it is obvious that cane cannot possibly be grown for that purpose at the price mentioned. The estimated cost of producing a ton of cassava is £1 7s. 2d., and it is twice as valuable for producing power alcohol as is sugar cane. The entire molasses yield from the 1925-6 crop will be about 110,000 tons, which would- produce 7,200,000 gallons of 95 per cent, power alcohol, equal to about 17 per cent, of the present requirements of Australia. Molasses is produced in Queensland over an area SOO miles in length, and it will be impossible for the whole of it to be distilled at the Plane Creek mills at Sarina. Therefore, only so much as is produced in the vicinity of Mackay, estimated at between 10.000 and 15,000 tons, will be utilized.

A considerable acreage of cassava will have to be grown for the manufacture of power alcohol. Mr. Board, when in Australia, made the following remarks on power alcohol and its use in motor vehicles : -

It was now possible to produce a liquid fuel that would give every bit as good work as petrol in an engine designed for petrol consumption. He had sent up small quantities to Mackay for use there, and they had found no difference in its use. The flame propagation was slower, through the body of gas inside the cylinder, which made its action more like that of the steam-engine, so that one did not get any knocking or pinking on a hill, and very much smoother running than with petrol.

Mr. Board, commenting, too, on the use of sugar cane and tops in the manufacture of power alcohol, pointed out that it would not pay a company to buy sugar cane at the cost of production for the manufacture of power alcohol. That is why he stressed the necessity for growing cassava and other starch-bearing plants. After considering this matter carefully, he said -

So far he bad omitted to mention sugar cane as a source of power alcohol. If the product had to be sold at 2s. 3d. a gallon one could not make alcohol from sugar . cane with economic results. Taking the price of cane at 40s. a ton, on a basis of 14 per cent, sucrose they should obtain approximately 17 to 18 gallons of alcohol from a ton of cane; another 3 or 4 gallons might be obtained from the cane tops; but they were not easily distilled. Even adding them on, they reached a maximum of 22 gallons per ton of cane, with the tops-say 20 gallons for convenience in calculating, and they would find the expense of the raw material thus used would be 2s. per gallon of alcohol. Adding on the other costs already enumerated, they would have to sell the spirit made from sugar cane at 3s. 9d. per gallon, which, of course, was impossible, unless they could get the Government to grant a bonus of 2s. per gallon on the product. Even with cane at 30s. per ton the cost of raw material would run out at ls. 6d. per gallon of spirit, which was three times tlie cost that they could afford to pay, and sell at 2s. 3d. In reply to a question, Mr. Board said a ton of molasses would yield about 65 gallons of 95 per cent, alcohol ; but that, of course, would vary according to the quantity of fermentable sugar left in the molasses. At a figure of 20s. per ton of molasses, the cost of the raw material would work out at about 3£d. per gallon.

Those views expressed by” the representative of the Intercolonial Sugar and Alcohol Company Limited are not shared by all the experts connected with the sugar industry of Queensland. For instance, Mr. Hunter, a gentleman probably well known to the Minister, stated that power alcohol could bo manufactured from sugar cane even at present prices. In reply to a statement made by the Minister of Agriculture, he said -

The Minister for Agriculture in his statement on the question of manufacturing power alcohol from sugar cane is not correct. Baw sugar in North Queensland contains 46 gallons of alcohol to the ton, equal to 19.2 gallons per ton of cane. In the manufacture of sugar 580 lb. of molasses are produced, which contain 65 gallons of alcohol per ton,’ equal to 2.2 gallons pelton of cane, a total of 21.4 gallons. This is worked out on cane containing 14 per cent, of cane sugar. Cane testing 15 per cent, of cane sugar gives a return of 23 gallons.

On the Minister’s own figures, taking cane at 20 gallons, it is worth 45s. a ton of cane on the basis of 50,000 tons of molasses to 750,000 tons of cane treated in conjunction. Six shillings and fivepence a ton of cane, plus the suggested 4d. a gallon bonus, equal to 9s. Id. on the total spirit from combined treatment of cane and molasses, is equal to £3 0s. 6d. a ton of cane.

If the Government cares to hold an open inquiry in the North it will be proved to them that at the above prices a farmer can be paid fully 40s. a ton, and as there is a surplus of over 1,000,000 tons in sight for 1925, and half as much again for 1926, that will be treated at a loss of over £2,000,000, if treated at all.

It should be an easy matter for the Minister to find first the cost cf producing juice from cane, secondly the cost of distilling and marketing it from practical millers and distillers.

I mention those different views to show the diversity of opinion that exists, on this subject. Everybody seems to be groping in the dark. This proposed industry will no doubt remain for some time in the experimental stages, and we cannot hope for any extensive results until the next eighteen months or two years. I ask the Minister to make more adequate provision in clause 18 to safeguard the interests of the growers of cassava. I am told hat it cannot be grown for less than *£1 7s. 2d. a ton, and that the highest price that the’ company can pay for it is 19s. 6d. a ton. This price, even with the bounty of 2d., will not return to the growers the cost of production. I also invite the Minister’s attention to sub-clause 3 of clause 13, in which it states that every person who claims a bounty payable under the act shall, in making his claim, certify to the Minister the conditions of employment and the rates of wages paid to any labour employed by him other than the labour of members of his family. In arriving at the cost of production, provision should be made for the payment of a fair wage to every member of a family working on a farm. If the bounty is applied to molasses, I can see in the proposal a means of assisting very substantially the Queensland sugar industry. Sugar mills which mow work four or five months in the year will be utilized for the remainder of the year in the manufacture of power alcohol. This will mean employment for thousands of men in Queensland, and also will keep m Australia the £7,000,000 that is sent overseas every year for petrol supplies. I should certainly like the Minister to extend the bounty to power alcohol manufactured from molasses.

Mr Pratten:

– The growers did not ask for that.

Mr FORDE:

– I accept the Minister’s statement; but I shall wire to those interested for their views, and say something further next week. In view of the over-production of sugar and the consequent decrease in price, it seems to me that if a bounty were granted on power alcohol manufactured from molasses, the shareholders of the co-operative mills should establish distilleries, and thus obtain some benefit to compensate them for losses incurred by them through overproduction of sugar. The farmers will be helped to some extent by the British preference on sugar of £4 5s. 7d..a ton, which is an increase of £2 6s, 9d. on the present preference.

Mr J FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931; LP from 1944

– Honorable members opposite made no effort to obtain an increased British preference.

Mr FORDE:

– Every honorable member on this side of the House stands for British preference on Australian products. The Government brought down to this House the preference proposals bracketed with other matters to which we were strongly opposed, and which we voted against at the time. The Leader of the Opposition very definitely put his views before the House. He said that he stood for British preference on Australian products. I am glad that the honorable member interjected.

Mr J FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931; LP from 1944

– I am glad to hear of the honorable member’s very late conversion.

Mr FORDE:

– Those remarks will not go down with the sugar-growers, or anybody else in Australia. The sugargrowers know my views. Probably some honorable members representing Western Australia fear that this measure, in assisting the sugar industry, will help to in crease the number of Italians in Queensland. I wish to inform them that out of 2.19,875 acres under sugar cultivation in Queensland only 10,000 acres are owned by Italians.

Mr Hill:

– How many acres are worked bv them ?

Mr FORDE:

– The Italians, when they go to Queensland, immediately set about obtaining financial assistance with which. to purchase their own farms. They work in co-operation with each other; but, naturally, I believe in preference being given to Australians.

Mr SPEAKER:

– How far does the honorable member intend to go under cover of the bill in an examination of the sugar problem?

Mr FORDE:

– I wish to point out that if the bill is passed many by-products of sugar will be utilized in the manufacture of power alcohol. One reason why I ask honorable members to support the bill with certain amendments is that the Queensland sugar industry will receive a decided benefit at times when it is threatened with an over-production of sugar and low prices. The molasses obtained from 15,000 tons of sugar cane produced in the vicinity of Plane Creek Sugar Mill will be utilized within the next twelve months in the manufacture of power alcohol. A number of small growers in the Carmila district, near Sarina, would be able to grow cassava if they were assured of a reasonable return just above the cost of production. Of the 4,604 sugar-growers in Queensland, 3,394 grew less than 500 tons of cane each last year; 712 grew between 500 tons and 1,000 tons each; and only 498 grew more than 1,000 tons each. “ As the profit on production is only about 10s. per ton, 4,106, or S9 per cent., of these growers only earned about £250 each last year. That cannot be called an excessive income. The sugar-growers, if it were made payable, would gladly cultivate cassava to supplement their earnings. In the 1923^24 season 77 per cent, of the cane grown in Queensland was produced by BritishAustralian growers. It will be seen, therefore, that the industry is largely in the hands of British or Australian-born people. If this power alcohol proposition develops it will give a valuable fillip to the sugar industry. Every honorable member can unhesitatingly support the bill, particularly if he is opposed to the importation of sugar from black labour countries, where the wage is about ls. per day. It is less than that in Java, and in Europe it is about £1 per week. I confidently expect honorable members who believe in supporting Australian industry to vote for this bill.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I think we have heard enough about the relation of the sugar industry to this bill.

Mr FORDE:

– I desire to point out that as molasses is a by-product of the sugar industry, and if provision is made in the bill for the payment of a reasonable price for the molasses produced, the measure will be valuable to the Queensland sugar-growers.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is entitled to make only incidental references to the sugar industry in discussing this measure. He is not entitled to spend the whole of his time on it. I shall not listen to him further unless he discusses the bill.

Mr FORDE:

– As I have already dealt fully with the ramifications of the proposal to produce power alcohol in Australia, I shall content myself with expressing the hope that this measure, with the amendments I propose to move, will be passed. “When a man like Mr. Board, who can speak on behalf of the Intercolonial Sugar and Alcohol Company Limited, having behind it an enormous financial institution like the Distilleries Limited, with a. capital of £40,000,000, says that he means business, we should do our part by encouraging him; but no monopoly should be granted. Notwithstanding the opinions expressed by honorable members opposite, we on this side of the chamber believe in encouraging men with capital behind them to set up industrial concerns in Australia. If we can produce power alcohol to such an extent that we can render unnecessary the spending of something like £7,000,000 of our money annually on imported petrol, we shall do a big thing for Australia. To provide employment for our people in our own land in an industry that will be of tremendous national importance is a project well worthy of our earnest consideration. I am sure this bill, with necessary amendments, will commend itself to all honorable members, except, perhaps, a few who still preach the pernicious and worn-out doctrine of freetrade, and of buying in the cheapest market overseas.

Mr BAYLEY:
Oxley

.- The Government and the Minister for Trade and Customs in particular are to be congratulated upon having introduced this measure. If its purpose is achieved, not only Queensland but the whole of Australia will be benefited. The .measure should bo particularly beneficial to the Queensland sugar districts. Honorable members know that one of the difficulties of the sugar industry which explains, to some extent, the high wages that prevail in it, is that it provides only seasonal employment for the workers. The introduction of a new industry into the north of Queensland which would result in the workers being employed for the full twelve months, would accomplish a great amount of good. I understand that the company which proposes to establish the power alcohol industry in Queensland intends to work in conjunction with the proprietors of an existing sugar mill. They hope, eventually, to go so far as to secure complete control of trie mills. They purpose using those portions of the sugar-milling machinery which are suitable for handling cassava in the period of the year when the mills are not crushing cane. The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Forde) seems to - be fearful that the price proposed to be paid for cassava would be insufficient to meet the cost of production, and leave a fair margin of profit to the growers. I point out to him and to other honorable members that it is anticipated that at least 500 gallons of power alcohol will be produced from a single acre of cassava. It is also estimated that 39 gallons of power alcohol may be obtained from a ton of cassava. The honorable member for Capricornia suggested that 19s. 6d. would have to be the minimum allowed as the cost of production per ton, and the Minister took 20s. 7d. as the figure. I have taken the average of those two figures, and allowed 20s. per ton. The grower would average a return of 12 tons of cassava to the acre. At 20s. oer ton his return would be £12 per acre,and the proposed bounty of 2d. per gallon, taking 39 gallons as the product of a ton, and 12 tons to an acre, would make his gross return £15 18s. an acre. Allowing £7 an acre for working expenses,which, I think, would be a fair thing, his net return wouldbeabout £818s. or £9 per acre. I am sura that that would be sufficient to induce the people of north Queensland to devote a portion of their land to the cultivation of cassava. This by-product crop would be very useful to the sugar industry. I have no doubt that if this scheme is as successful as we hope hundreds of thousands of acres in the sugar belt of North Queensland will be put under cassava. Cassava, of course, is only one crop that is useful for the production of power alcohol. A very much greater return than 39 gallons to the ton can be obtained from some other crops. Grain sorghum, for instance, yields as high as 87 gallons to the ton. Victoria is at present producing a certain amount of grain sorghum on an experimental basis, so we have evidence that it can be grown here. Wheat, barley, and maize would also produce power alcohol. Eighty-five gallons to the ton can be obtained from maize, but as only about1s. l3/4d. per bushel could be paid for maize for this purpose there is no prospect of producing maize for power alcohol purposes on a commercialbasis. The same thing can be said of wheat, which would produce. 83 gallons to the ton. But1s. l3/4d. per bushel for wheat for that purpose is out of thequestion. Sweet potatoes are also useful for the production of power alcohol. I trust that the bill will receive sympathetic consideration. I must remindthe Minister, however, that while he is giving with one hand he is taking away withtheother. He is proposing a bounty of 3d. per gallon for power alcohol made fromcertain starch-producing products but the distillers are compelled to pay more than 3d. per gallon in denaturing costs, and in expenses they are put to under the excise regulations. From time to time requests have been made for a modification of our excise regulations and denaturing requirements. We, in Australia, are in the unenviable position of having the highest and most stringent excise regulations in the world. Great Britain,

France, the United States of America, and other countries, have modified their denaturing conditions, and I suggest that the Minister for Trade and Customs should examine the position with aview to altering our standards. It seems to me to be an unwise policy for the Government to lay a heavy burden on the manufacturers of power alcohol. I hope that later on theGovernment will introduce a bill for the purpose of increasingthe bounty payable for the production of benzine from our oil shales. Although the present bounty has been available for some years the fact that the oil-shale industry has not grown is proof positive that there is somethingwrong. Between the value of the two industries - the production of power alcohol from cultivated crops and the production of benzine and oils from shale - there is no comparison. Power alcohol produced from crops is only a substitute for petrol, but in times of stress this country will sorely need local supplies of lubricating oils and heavy fuel oils, which cannot be obtained from root crops. I suggest to the Minister that he should carry on the good work he has started, and bring before the House a bill to foster what may be termed the infant industry, although it has been established for a number of years, of obtaining benzine, fuel, and crude oils from our shale deposits.

Debate (on motion by Mr. West) adjourned.

page 520

SUPPLY BILL (No. 1)

Bill returned from the Senate without request.

page 520

LOAN BILL (No. 1)

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 520

ADJOURNMENT

German National Currency - Inaccurate Newspaper Report - Major Story - Labour for Canberra - League or Nations

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister · Flinders · NAT

– I move -

That the House do now adjourn.

I wish, to refer to a matter arising out of the answer given by the Minister for Trade and Ons tom 8 (Mr. Pratten) yesterday to a question asked by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Mann). The honorable member asked what countries xt present were being considered by the Customs Department, #f or the purpose of the Industries Preservation Act, as having depreciated currencies. A list of countries Avas supplied to the honorable member by (the Minister for Trade and Customs, and included in it was the name of Germany. As the head of the Government I received this morning an official protest from the German Consul against Germany being included in the list. As the honorable member had asked what countries were being considered as having a depreciated currency, the answer was not a statement that Germany has a depreciated currency at this moment. This matter has been under consideration for some weeks. Honorable members are aware that the German currency has been re-organized as a result of the Dawes’ plan, and that on the 5th June last the old paper mark was withdraw from circulation and a gold basis substituted. The Government has been making investigations with a view to ascertaining whether, the gold mark is the effective currency of .Germany. It was only this morning that I received a reply to our inquiries, and it established the fact that the old paper mark was withdrawn, and the gold mark substituted on the 5th June. Consequently, the Customs Department will now have to reconsider Germany’s position.

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I wish to direct attention to a report published in the Age this morning. The words to which I take exception are in the centre of what purports to he a summary of a report by Mr. J. H. Butters, chairman of the Federal Capital Commission. Any one reading the report in the Age would imagine that the whole of the statement was made by Mr. Butters, whereas the newspaper. evidently in its intense desire to prejudice the early establishment of Canberra, allowed itself to go to lengths that are not in accordance with the best traditions of journalism. I draw the attention of honorable members and the people generally to it, in order to make it known that the opinions expressed are those of the paper, and not of Mr. Butters The passage reads -

Prospects of intense discomfort, inconvenience, and expense involved in transference next year have caused the project to be abandoned. While the Parliament building itself is in an advanced stage, and, according1 to the commission, a sitting there without Mansard staffs could he arranged for next Christinas, the lack of housing accommodation renders transference under wintry conditions next year a hare-brained project, liable to cause many people to be stricken with double pneumonia, and Parliament itself working under well-nigh impossible conditions.

I should not imagine for a moment that Mr. Butters would so far forget himself as to make such a gross reflection on the decision of this Parliament. Such remarks emanated, not from Mr. Butters, but from the person who wrote the report for the Age.

Mr MANN:
Perth

– I am much obliged to the right honorable the Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce) for the ‘statement he made regarding the national currency of Germany. Had he not referred to the subject I intended to do so. I wish to point out to him that in the list of countries supplied to me by the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Pratten) there is at least one other country, and, possibly, two, with currencies on a gold basis, or the equivalent of a gold basis. I referred to this matter by question and comments during the last session of this Parliament, and I have been surprised that more notice was not taken of my suggestions and hints, which were given, in quite a friendly way, with a view to saving the Minister from difficulties. I am surprised that we have not had protests from other countries besides Germany. I have no desire to override the laws of this country, but they should be carried out very strictly in such matters as this, which affect our trade and commerce with other nations. It is a matter of great importance, and is worthy of a little more than passing attention. I am pleased to see that the right honorable the Prime Minister recognizes its importance, and I hope that the Minister for Trade and Customs will give his attention to the other cases I have mentioned, and see that his department strictly administers the act. I am a little surprised at the date quoted by the Prime

Minister, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer in England, in his budget speech, which I think was delivered in March, referred to the fact that at that time Germany was on a gold basis, and that her currency was on a par with the British currency. That fact, which was publicly announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, should have been known to the Customs Department of this country.

Mr NELSON:
Northern Territory

– On the adjournment last night two statements were made by the Honorary Minister (Mr. Marr), representing the Minister for Home and Territories, in respect of the allegations I had previously made concerning Mr. Story, the Official Secretary of the Northern Territory. The Minister said that Mr. Story had never commanded a battalion and had never been court martialled. These are the facts : - Mr. Story commanded the 37th Battalion temporarily, and had command of its attack at the battle of Messines. He was deprived of his command and subsequently rejoined the 8th Battalion, and commanded it with the rank of lieutenant-colonel, a rank which is given only to commanding officers in the infantry. After the Armistice, Mr. Story and Lieutenant F. G. Harris, an officer of the permanent staff, were court martialled together on a charge of having sold stores and army comforts to civilians. If the Minister can show that I am wrong in these statements, I am prepared to apologize to Mr. Story publicly and frankly. On the other hand, if the Minister is wrong, and has misled the House, I think an apology is due from him to the House. My information i3 so. substantiated that I suspect an attempt is being made to sidetrack the charges I have made, just as the charges made by Brigadier-General Elliott in another place were sidetracked. I think honorable members will agree that BrigadierGeneral Elliott would not make statements in another place for personal gratification or from spleen. His reputation should, at least, have given whatever charges he made the hall-mark of sincerity; yet they were sidetracked by misstatements and by a perversion of the facts. I refer the Minister to Brigadier-

General W. , Ramsay McNicol for proof of my charge in regard to the conduct of Mr. Story at the battle of Messines. No soldier would doubt the qualifications and integrity of such a distinguished officer as he was. General McNicol is now in Goulburn, New Souh Wales, and I have not been in communication with him, either by word or in writing. I appreciate the action of the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Hurry) in rushing to the assistance of a fellow soldier. It stands to the credit of his battalion - the’ 38th - that it took the first objective at the battle of Messines; but, as Major Story’s battalion was allotted the last objective, I fail to see how the honorable member for Bendigo could have had first-hand knowledge of how Major .Story failed to hold the last objective.

Mr HURRY:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– The honorable member is wrong on that point.

Mr NELSON:

– I cannot see how the honorable member for Bendigo was in a position to know why Major Story and Lieutenant-Colonel W. J. Smith were relieved of their commands on that particular occasion.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Why were they relieved of their commands?

Mr NELSON:

– Because of the manner in which they behaved’ whilst under fire. For corroboration of my statement in this regard I can refer honorable members to the evidence given by most distinguished soldiers. If I am wrong, I am prepared to publicly apologize. I am not making these charges for personal reasons. I am acting, I believe, in the interests of the constituency I represent, and the proper administration of the Northern Territory. If the Minister is anxious to have the matter cleared up, let him lay on the table the files in connexion with the Messines affair and the court martial to which I have referred. If by some freak, or shall I say trick, certain papers have been removed- from the files, then I suggest that he should peruse the file of Lieutenant F. G. Harris, who was court martialled at the same, time. It is due to the House to have this matter cleared up.

Mr Stewart:

– It is also due to those the honorable member is charging to have it cleared up.

Mr NELSON:

– Quite so. I have not seen the Hansard report of the remarks of the honorable member for Bendigo, but he is reported in the Argus to have said that my charges contained, perhaps, a scintilla of truth, which made them more dishonorable than an absolute lie. I can assure the honorable member that my charges were not made at random, but only after careful investigation of the statements of most responsible officers. I think the honorable member will give those I have named the credit of being honorable men, who would not cause statements to be made concerning a fellow officer unless there was some truth in them. I hope the Minister will lay the files on the table. The Minister also said, in regard to my statement concerning Mr. Braham, the Crown Law officer in the Northern Territory, that the Minister had given instructions that an explanation should bo obtained from him. Is it likely that a person who is accused will give an explanation condemnatory of himself?

Mr McGrath:

– He does not deny owing the money.

Mr NELSON:

– No; and the fact remains that he is still debarred from going on any race-course in Western Australia. He is a legal man. If the facts I have mentioned are wrong, why does he not seek legal redress? It is sufficient proof of their correctness when we know that he has not sought that legal redress. I am not in the least surprised at the. statement of the Honorary Minister, and seeing that it emanated from the person who was accused I challenge him to produce the files for which I have asked.

Mr MARKS:
Honorary Minister · WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT; IND NAT from 1929

– I do not intend to reply at length to the further statements of the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson), but I shall bring his remarks under the notice of the Minister in charge of the Home and Territories Department, and obtain further information from him. At the same time, I think it is deplorable that an honorable member should, under the cloak of privi lege, criticize as hehas done not only a Government official, but a man who served his country during the late war. Major Story has no opportunity to reply effectively to criticism of such a nature, but I believe that he needs nofriends in this connexion. We need only lookat his war record, and the fact that hewas mentioned in dispatches after the occurrence to which reference has been made.

Mr Nelson:

– Did he receive decorations ?

Mr MARR:
NAT

– To be mentioned in dispatches by Field-Marshal Earl Haig, one of the best known soldiers in the Empire, was equivalent to receiving a decoration. I pay little heed to criticism of a soldier by people who stayed at home during the war. The fact that the Returned Soldiers’ Associationin Western Australia is behind theCrown Law officer in the Northern Territory is sufficient evidence for me that he is capable of discharging the duties entrusted to him. If honorable members desire to attack a public officer let them do it outside thischamber.

I wish to inform the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony), following upon a question asked by him last week, that the Minister for Home and Territories has forwarded the following replyby the Chairman of the Federal Capital Commission : -

Federal Capital Commission,

Canberra, 18th June, 1925

Dear Senator Pearce,

Referring to your letter of the 12th June, 1925, with which you forwarded a copy of remarks made in Parliament by Mr. Mahony, M.P., relating to the engagement of labour for the commission, I have ascertained that there appears tobe no foundation for the complaints made. It had not been the practice in the past to approach the Department of Labour and Industry in all cases where employees wore required for the Federal Capital, but the commission adopted the policy of notifying that department; and in the specific case under notice application was made to the Department of Labour and Industry, but it was unable to provide urgently the assistance required. Inquiries had been made, in addition, through other channels - with successful results The advertisement quoted as appearing in the Sydney Morning Herald was not authorized by the commission, andthe commission did not pay any fee to Miss Layard’s agency in respect to the engagement of any employee. Miss Layard evidently inserted the

Advertisement as a matter of .business, bear ing that inquiries were being made on tha commission’s behalf. It will %e seen, therefore, that the Government Bureau <has not been overlooked, and no practice has been established of utilizing private agencies to the .exclusion of the Bureau, as implied in the parliamentary reference.- The commission will continue to use the resources of the Department of Labour and Industry as far as possible, but. obviously, it cannot !be expected to confine its inquiries to jone source, as this might often cause delay and inconvenience.

Mr McGRATH:
Ballarat

.Reverting to the matter mentioned by the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson’) I have an id»a that Major Story left Australia in the Persic with the 37th Battalion of the Australian Imperial Force. I have no desire ito defame anybody, but I have heard rumours concerning him, ,and I know that there is a tendency on the part of the Government to look after generals, colonels, and majors, and find positions for them. The honorable member was only -doing his .duty in drawing attention to this case, if he thought that the character of the officer was not above suspicion.

Mr Marr:

– He ought to have made certain of his facts.

Mr McGRATH:

– I think that tlie honorable member made a fair statement.. Major Story may be all that the honorable member for Bendigo .(Mr. Hurry) said he is, but it is true that he did not remain long in France. In the interests of honest administration in the Northern Territory the file asked for should be placed on the Library table. Since the accuracy of the Ministerial statement has been challenged, the full facts should be made known to honorable members.

I was under the impression that the appointment of the delegation from Australia .to .the League <o£ Nations Assembly at Geneva was to be a non-party matter. We were told twelve months ago thai the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) had been appointed a delegate in pursuance of that policy, but this vear the Government lias -made appointments of a distinctly party character. Owing .to the difficulty of the Nationalist and Country parties in Western Australia somebody, we are told, had to retire from the Senate, and we were informed recently that Senator Drake-Brockman was willing to efface himself in the interests of his party. Now it transpires that he has been appointed a member of the delegation to Geneva. I venture to say that too honorable senator knew that he was to be selected, and that a promise from the Government prompted his retirement. Then we are told that Mr George Swinburne^ a discredited Nationalist politician, who was defeated at ti e last federal election, has also been chosen. Mr. Swinburne would also be in the way when the time came to select four Nationalist candidates to contest the next Senate election for Victoria. That gentleman is now out of the way. Per- ‘sonally, I have not the slightest, faith in tlie League of Nations.

Mr Scullin:

– Apparently, there are two methods of deportation.

Mr McGRATH:

– Yes; but in this instance first class return passages are provided. If the work of the League of Nations is to be in any way. effective representation should be on a non-party basis. The Government in selecting two gentlemen whom ’ At is particularly desirous of getting rid of at this juncture have shown that it, too, has little or no faith in the League, or it would not use it for this purpose. We are paying thousands of pounds a year to bolster up indirectly the cause of Nationalism.

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT

– I do not propose to follow tlie honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. MoGrath) in the murky maze in which he has been wandering. Although assurance is not necessary,. I can state most definitely that there is not the faintest scintilla of truth in anything the honorable member has said concerning Australia’s representation at the forthcoming Assembly of the League of Nations. It is lamentable to hear such a statement made in this chamber, and to feel that an honorable member should even have such thoughts as have been expressed. Such accusations only confirm the opinion I am beginning to hold, that they clearly indicate what some honorable members would themselves be prepared to do if they had the opportunity.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 4.33 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 26 June 1925, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1925/19250626_reps_9_110/>.