House of Representatives
7 August 1923

9th Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Speaker (Rt. Hen. W. A. Watt) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 2210

DEATH OF SIR EDWARD HUTTON

Mr BOWDEN:
Minister for Defence · Parramatta · NAT

. -(By leave.)-I wish to inform the House of the death of Lieutenant-General Sir Edward Hutton,. by which the Empire has suffered a great loss. On the inauguration of the Commonwealth of Australia, Sir Edward’sservices were requested from the British Government to mould the various StateDefence Forces into one Australian Defence Force. He had already shown great organizing ability during his period of command in New South Wales, from 1893 to 1896, and had successfully commanded, amongst other mounted troops, Australian troops during the South African War. It is to him that Australia is indebted for the organization and the system of training which enabled her to put the Australian Imperial Forceinto the field at the beginning of the late war. He was one of the fathers of the mounted infantry movement in the British Empire, and during his period of command in Australia devoted himself particularly to the development of the Australian Light Horse, which he considered was the ideal combination for modern warfare of the cavalryman and the mounted rifleman. Until the day of his death he was honorary colonel of two of out Light Horse Regiments, and showed great interest up to the last in this arm, and indeed in all the Australian Forces.

page 2210

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

industrial Dispute

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister for Works and Railways whether, in view of the fact that a serious strike is imminent at Canberra, which may have the effect of throwing 700 men out of work, and the desire of the unions that the industrial tribunal should immediately meet to settle the difficulty, he will expedite the calling together of the tribunal ?

Mr STEWART:
Minister for Works and Railways · WIMMERA, VICTORIA · CP

– Yes. I shall db so. Every endeavour will be made to call the tribunal together as quickly as possible.

page 2211

QUESTION

COMMUNICATIONS FROM IMPERIAL GOVERNMENT

Mr ANSTEY:
BOURKE, VICTORIA

– I ask the Prime Minister, by whom are the secret and confidential cablegrams received from the Imperial Government opened, and to whom are their contents communicated ?

Mr BRUCE:
Minister for External Affairs · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · NAT

– The cablegrams are received through the Governor-General. They are opened by myself. The contents, except such as are made known to the Cabinet, are not communicated to any one.

Mr ANSTEY:

– Arising out of the answer to my question, I ask the Prime Minister whether I am to understand that the secret and confidential communications from the Imperial Government do not come under the observation of a gentleman known as Mr. Russell?

Mr BRUCE:

– The position is as I have stated. These are communications from the Prime Minister of Great Britain to the Prime Minister of Australia.

Mr ANSTEY:

– “Would the Prime Minister mind saying “ yes “ or “ no “ to the question whether Mr. ‘ Russell becomes conversant with the contents of these cablegrams?

Mr BRUCE:

– I am sorry if I did riot make myself clear, in my last answer to the honorable gentleman. I tried to convey the fact that Mr. Russell does not become aware of the contents of these cablegrams.

page 2211

QUESTION

OLYMPIC GAMES

Representation of Australia

Mr GABB:
ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I understand that the Government has agreed to provide a sum of £3,000 to assist in sending a team of athletes from Australia to take part in the Olympic Games. I have noted a movement in Victoria in opposition to the Murray Bridge Eight, who have proved themselves the undoubted rowing champions of Australia, and I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he will make it a condition of the Commonwealth grant that only those who have proved themselves undoubted cham pions in the different athletic spheres shall be sent abroad to represent Australia?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The honorable member’s question is not of such pressing importance that it might not have been placed on the notice-paper, but in order to prevent him having to say over again all that he has said, I point out that the contribution by the Commonwealth is made to the council organizing Australia’s representation, and the Government does not propose to interfere with the discretion vested in that body.

page 2211

QUESTION

DEPUTY POSTMASTER-GENERAL OF TASMANIA

Mr O’KEEFE:
DENISON, TASMANIA

– I ask the PostmasterGeneral whether any appointment has yet been made to fill the vacancy caused by the retirement of the Deputy PostmasterGeneral at Hobart. If not, when is an appointment likely to be made?

Mr GIBSON:
Postmaster-General · CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · CP

– No such appointment has been made.

page 2211

QUESTION

ALLEGED DISCONTENT ON CRUISER ADELAIDE

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I ask the Minister for Defence has his attention been drawn to the dispute 011 H.M.A.S. Adelaide regarding the food supplied to the crew, and if so, is it the intention of the Government to inquire into the matter?

Mr BOWDEN:
NAT

– I am advised that the Naval Board has received no report of any trouble on board the Adelaide, and does not regard the matter referred to seriously. Inquiries will, however, ‘be made.

page 2211

QUESTION

SUMATRA INQUIRY

Printing OF Report and Evidence.

Mr BLAKELEY:

– In answer to a question I put yesterday the Prime Minister promised to look into the matter of the printing of the evidence and findings of the Royal Commission inquiring into the loss of the S.S. Sumatra. Has the honorable gentleman looked into the matter, and if so what is his decision?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– It was my intention to inform the honorable member that I have looked into the matter. As a very considerable time must necessarily elapse before the evidence and minutes of the

Royal Commission’s inquiry can be printed, I am of opinion that the honorable member’s purpose can be better served by laying the papers on the table of the library. I shall take action accordingly.

page 2212

QUESTION

NAVIGATION ACT SELECT COMMITTEE

Taking of Evidence

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– I ask the honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) as Chairman of the Navigation Act Select Committee, whether the Committee has decided to take evidence in public, and if not, why not ?

Mr SPEAKER (Rt Hon W A Watt:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

– The honorable member forMaribyrnong (Mr. Fenton) has taken a somewhat unusual course, but it is one which is sometimes followed in the House of Commons. In such cases it is customary to give notice to the honorable member to be interrogated.

Mr.PROWSE.-I ask the honorable member to give notice.

page 2212

QUESTION

NAVY COOK RATINGS

Training

Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES:
for Mr. Marks

asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

In view of statements that Army cooks are being trained at private schools, and of the fact that an efficient school of cookery exists at Flinders Naval Depot for the training of cook ratings for the Navy, and also that a special victualling department forms part of the Navy Office- Would it not tend towards economy and service efficiency if more use were made of the Naval victualling departments by the Army in giving instruction to military trainees instead of going to private schools for such knowledge?

Mr BOWDEN:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s question are as fol low : -

The cooks who are referred to as being trained at private schools are presumably those members of the Citizen Forces who are receiving their initial training in cookery at various schools of Domestic Economy and similar establishments pending the training of Army instructors.

The School of Cookery at the Flinders Naval Depot is already being used to its fullest capacity in the training of Army cooks; a party of instructors has been undergoing training there for the past three weeks. The course lasts ten weeks.. When this party finishes, another party will take its place.

Preliminary arrangements for the training of Army cooks at the Naval School of Cookery were made in October, 1922, and only the lack of funds prevented an earlier commencement of the system now inaugurated.

It is hoped that it will be possible to continue the system.

It is not practicable to send Citizen Force trainees through a continuous course of cookery, which lasts in all some twelve weeks.

page 2212

QUESTION

INSULIN FOR DIABETES

Supply to Tasmania

Mr O’KEEFE:

asked the Minister for Health, upon notice -

Is it a fact that statements have been made by the chairman and by’ Dr. Ratten, the superintendent of the Hobart Public Hospital, and also have similar statements been published in Tasmania, to the effect that Tasmanian hospitals are not being included in the lists of hospitals that are to receive a supply of “ Insulin “ for treatment of diabetes? Ifso, are the statements true?

Mr BOWDEN:
for Mr. Austin Chapman · NAT

– Insulin will be forwarded to Tasmania as soon as sufficient supplies are available and satisfactory arrangements have been made. Tasmanian hospitals which have the necessary facilities willbe supplied. There isto be no distinction between Tasmania and the other States.

page 2212

QUESTION

SPAHLINGER TREATMENT FOR TUBERCULOSIS

Mr COLEMAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether the reports of the Premiers of New South Wales and Victoria with regard to the Spahlinger treatment for tuberculosis, which the Prime Minister previously stated were being awaited, have been received ?
  2. If so, what is the nature of such reports?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The reports in question have not yet been received; but steps are being taken with a view to obtaining the opinions of both Premiers regarding the treatment mentioned.

page 2212

QUESTION

HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, CANBERRA

Architects’ Competition

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that representations have been made by the Federal Council of the Institute of Architects concerning the revival of the world-wide competition for the Federal Houses of Parliament at Canberra?
  2. Is the Government about to abandon the said competition; if so, will it consider the question of compensating each of the 210 registered competitors in order to modify the possible stigma on, and also to protect the honour of, Australia?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. The matter is under consideration by the Government.

page 2213

QUESTION

UNSUITABLE IMMIGRANTS

Boys Sent to Tasmania - “Berrima” Immigrants.

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice-

  1. Is it a fact that Major B. Sampson, State Director of Immigration, Tasmania, stated last week that - “ In view of the undesirable type of a number of the boy immigrants sent to Tasmania with the last two batches, I have advised Australia House not to send any more immigrants until advised to do so. It was to be regretted that Australia House was not using the best discretion in selecting settlers for Australia. Some of the boys who arrived recently were not of a desirable type. If Australia House could not find a better type of settler I would rather not see them come to Tasmania at all “ ?
  2. If so, will he make investigations, and advise the House as to the correctness of such allegations?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– No official advice has been received as to any such alleged statement by Major Sampson.

Mr CHARLTON:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact, as stated by Mr. Frank Sanders, Welfare Officer in charge of new arrivals by the Berrima, that “Britain was well rid of 50 per cent. of the immigrants, who should never have been selected, or, if selected, should never have been allowed to land. Many of them were the sweepings of London and other British cities “ ?
  2. If so, will he have investigations made into these allegations, and inform the House as to the result?
Mr BRUCE:

– No. Certain allegations have been made by Mr. Sanders which are not founded on fact.

page 2213

QUESTION

DUTY ON PICTURE FILM

Mr COLEMAN:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether it is proposed to impose ad valorem duties on imported moving pictures, with a view to protecting the Australian moving picture industry?

Mr BOWDEN:
for Mr. Austin Chapman · NAT

– No representationshave been made for an increased duty, but should one be received it will have consideration.

page 2213

QUESTION

PATRIOTIC FUNDS

Mr COLEMAN:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether he is in a position to afford the information asked for in my question of the 25th July last, relating to the control and expenditure of patriotic funds?

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– As it has been necessary to obtain this information from the different States some further time must elapse before complete details will be available.

page 2213

QUESTION

SOLDIERS’ HOMES

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

When will the amount to be advanced to the State Bank of South Australia for the building of soldiers’ homes be made available?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
Treasurer · COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The advance agreed upon is being made at the rate of £62,500 per month.

page 2213

QUESTION

TARIFF BOARD

Mr MANN:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. What were the terms of appointment of the present members of the Tariff Board ?
  2. For what period were they appointed, and from what date?
Mr BOWDEN:
for Mr. Austin Chapman · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The terms are as set out in section 8 of the Tariff Board Act, 1021, which reads as follows: - “8. ( 1 ) The Chairman shall receive, in addition to his salary as an officer of the Public Service, an allowance which, together with his salary, shall not exceed Fourteen hundred pounds a year, and each of the other members shall receive an allowance of Five guineas per sitting. “ (2) There shall be paid to each member, on account of his expenses in travelling to discharge the duties of his office, such sums as are considered reasonable by the Governor-General.”
  2. For a term of two years on and from the 10th March, 1922.

page 2213

QUESTION

ADMISSION OF CHINESE, HINDOOS, AND JAPANESE

Mr COLEMAN:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that 1,964 Chinese, 213 Hindoos, and 390 Japanese were admitted to Australia during the year 1922?
  2. If so, have the whole of these persons been admitted permanently into the Commonwealth?
  3. How many were previously resident in Australia ?
  4. Under what conditions and for what reasons were these admissions to Australia authorized?
Mr ATKINSON:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · WILMOT, TASMANIA · CP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. No.
  3. Previously domiciled in Australia - 1,751 Chinese, 137 Hindoos, 46 Japanese.
  4. Those referred to in No. 3 were re-admitted to Australia after having been temporarily absent. The following were admitted by special authority: - One Chinese, five Hindoos, six Japanese. The balance were admitted for temporary residence under the circumstances mentioned below, or deserted from overseas Ships: -

page 2214

QUESTION

KU KLUX KLAN

Formation of Australian Branch

Mr COLEMAN:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether his attention has been directed to the report of a speech delivered by CaptainChaplain Wilson, a member of the Legislative Assembly of New South Wales, in which it is stated that a branch of the Ku Klux Klan has been formed in Australia?
  2. In view of the acts of violence alleged to have been perpetrated by this organization in America, will the Prime Minister take stops to declare any such branch unlawful?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. There is no legislation in force under which the Commonwealth can declare such an organization unlawful.

page 2214

QUESTION

SUGAR

Mr BOWDEN:
for Mr. Austin Chapman · NAT

– On the 20th July, the honorable member for Fremantle (Mr. Watson) asked the Minister for Trade and Customs the following questions: -

  1. Is there any substantial international trade in sugar ?
  2. Do sugar prices differ materially in the principal countries of the world, under the influence of duties and other local causes?
  3. Isthere such a thing as a world parity price for this commodity; and, if so, in what way does the Government arrive at it?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. Yes. The trade in cane sugar is mostly international.
  2. Yes.
  3. Yes. For Australia, such price is based upon the f . o.b. price of Java brown sugar, plus exchange, plus freight to Melbourne or Sydney, plus landing charges, and plus Australian refinery charges, including processing waste, and excluding the refinery selling fee.

page 2214

SOLDIERS’ MEMORIAL

Mr BRUCE:
NAT

– On 3rd August, the honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Mackay) asked whether the Government had at any time donated land or money for the purpose of a soldiers’ memorial in any of the States of the Commonwealth; and, if so, would I give particulars. I promised to make inquiries into the matter, and have now ascertained that -

  1. The Commonwealth has agreed to dedicate aportion (34 feet x 269 feet) of Defence land fronting Adelaide and Ann streets, Brisbane, on condition that the State of Queensland also dedicates part for public park purposes.

The area is referred to as the Anzac Memorial Square, Brisbane, and will be under the control of the City Council.

  1. A portion (15 feet square) of the postoffice site at Wentworth, New South Wales, has been leased to the municipality for a period of ninety-nine years at a peppercorn rental, for the purpose of erecting a memorial “thereon.
  2. A portion (76 feet x 110 -feet) of Defence land, at Queenscliff, has been leased to trustees of the Queenscliff sub-branch of the Returned Sailors’ and Soldiers’ Imperial League of Victoria, for a period of ninety-nine years, at £1 per annum, for the purpose of erecting a hall thereon.

Portion, about .9 feet square, on the POStoffice site at Warracknabeal, Victoria, was granted to the shire council for the term of -ninety-nine years, at a peppercorn rental, for i>he purpose of erecting a soldiers’ memorial.

Apsley, Victoria. - An area of about 16 feet square out of the post-office site has been leased1 to thu president and councillors of the «hiro of Kowree, at a peppercorn rental, for ninety-nine years, for a soldiers’ memorial.

page 2215

SUGAR PURCHASES IN 1920

Appointment of Royal Commission

Mr BRUCE:
Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs’ · Flinders · NAT

(By leave.) - In August of last year & discussion took place here on the Supply Bill in regard to certain sugar purchases made by the Commonwealth in 1920 from James Nash and W. E. Davies. Those transactions were - 8th September, 1920, 1,000 tons of sugar at £7.2 12s. 6d. per ton’; 1st October, 1920, 5,000 tons at £63 10s. per ton; 8th October, 1920, 10,000 tons at £54 per ton. In the course of the discussion suggestions of improper conduct in connexion with the transactions were made, but no definite charges warranting action by the Government were forthcoming. Subsequently the transactions were considered by the Public Accounts Committee, which made the following report: -

Owing to the limitations imposed upon the Committee by the Statute under which its work is carried on, the Committee has been unable to completely investigate certain phases of this matter.

So far as the Commonwealth accounts are concerned, the Committee has discovered no overcharges or irregularities in connexion with these transactions.

Although a considerable amount of suspicion was caused -by these transactions, neither in the House nor in the evidence before the Accounts Committee were definite charges made which would have warranted action being taken. But yesterday further information regarding those three transactions was brought under my notice, and it has since been considered by the Government.

It is of such a character as to demand the fullest investigation, and the Government has accordingly determined to appoint a Judge of the High Court a Royal Commissioner to investigate the circumstances of these purchases. The Commission will be issued immediately, and, the matter being now sub judice, it would be improper for me to say anything further regarding it, and equally improper for the House to discuss it at this stage.

Mr E RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

(By .leave.) - I am pleased that the Government have determined to investigate the sugar transactions to which the Prime Minister referred, but the House is entitled to know now the nature of the information which has caused the Government to take -this action. The Prime Minister has left the House entirely in the dark.

Mr. BRUCE (Flinders - Prime Minister and Minis’ter for External Affairs) (2.56]. - I think it would be quite improper for me to say more at this stage, because any statement I made would of necessity prejudice the case before it reached the Royal Commission, But the Government hopes to obtain the Royal Commission within the next day or two, and we shall ask the Commissioner to proceed with the investigation forthwith. All the facts will then become known in a regular and proper way.

page 2215

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Norfolk Island Act- Ordinance 1923- No. 4 - Deserted wives and children.

Income Tax - Agreement between the Commonwealth and the State of New South Wales as to the assessment and collection of the Commonwealth tax and the State tax by the State Commissioner of Taxation.

page 2215

NORTHERN TERRITORY RAILWAY EXTENSION BILL

In Committee (Consideration of Senrates’s amendment) :

Senate’s Amendment. - Page 2, clause 8, lines 17-20, leave out all words from and including, “ The provisions of “, to and including Northern Territory (Administration) Act 1910 “, insert, “ Notwithstanding the provision of section eleven of the Northern Territory [Administration) Act 1910, the provisions of section sixty-three of the Commonwealth Railways Act 1917 shall apply in relation to the acquisition of land for the purposes of the .Railway as if after the word*

Corwnlandsof”andafterthewords whetherby’therewereinsertedthewords, the Commonwealth or ‘ “.

Motion (by Mr. Stewart) proposed -

That the amendment be agreed to.

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not know who is responsible for drafting the amendment, but honorable members will agree that it is most ambiguous and difficult to understand. I have been put to the trouble of consulting two Acts as well as the Bill in order to arrive at the meaning of the amendment, only to find that there is very little in it. These amendments should be presented to the Committee in such a manner that honorable members may be able to understand what is intended. The verbiage of the amendment condensed into plain language means, I suppose, that if later on there should be freehold land in the Territory, and it becomes necessary for the purposes of this railway to obtain the use of that freehold land it may be acquired under this measure. Why should we be compelled to go to so much trouble to ascertain the meaning of an amendment? What it is desired to provide could have been inserted as a separate provision. That . would have saved trouble. Could any of the legal men in this Committee tell what the amendment means as it is. I ask the Minister for Works whether the intention of the amendment is as I have stated?

Mr Stewart:

– That is the intention.

Mr CHARLTON:

– If that is so, no exception can be taken to it. The other Chamber must have been looking for something to do when it made such an amendment. I think that there was no necessity to amend the Bill at all. It gave all the authority required for the construction of the railway.

Motion agreed to.

Resolution reported; report adopted.

page 2216

QUESTION

BUDGET, 1923-24

In Committee of Supply : Consideration resumed from 6th August (vide page 2175), on motion by Dr. Earle Page -

That the first item in the Estimates under Division 1 - The Parliament - namely,” The President, £1,100,” be agreed to.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- Last night I referred to the position of the unemployed. I bring under the notice of the Treasurer now, circumstances connected with the idiotic alteration made recently in printing Commonwealth notes. Many poor people in the markets at the corner of Victoria and Elizabeth streets were caused much disturbance in mind because the notes were printed without the printer’s name. I do not know whether they intend to make a claim on the Government. Honorable members in this House should have the facts brought before them. I am given to understand that the name of the printer of the notes was omitted because of the jealousy of some individual. The Government should not permit the general public to be caused such uneasiness and trouble as many of our citizens suffered through this incident. People expect that a bank note shall be, as nearly as possible, an exact fac simile of every other bank note. The omission of the name of the printer caused the disturbance I have described. Whoever was responsible for that happening should be punished. I ask the Treasurer to give due notice to the public on future occasions when changes in the printing of bank notes are decided upon. I had to make a protest similar to this to the late Lord Forrest, when he was Treasurer I gave him specific information of twelve cases in which 10s.notes had been passed, and change given as though they had been £10 notes. Some of ‘the persons, bookmakers among them, returned the extra money; other persons were less honest. Subsequently, the words “ ten shillings “ and “ half sovereign “ were printed on the notes. I impress upon the Treasurer the necessity for notifying the public of any change in the form of bank notes.

The Treasurer is a medical man, and for that reason I draw his attention to the brutality shown by the Defence Department towards a German lodge which was connected with the Oddfellows’ Friendly Society. This lodge, which existed for no other purpose than the relief of distress, was de-registered by the Court. Having been a member of the Turn Verein for some years, I know of the great good this German lodge did for the poorer classes of German people. The society which I bring under notice was purely and simply a benefit society, otherwise it could not have been connected with the Oddfellows. j

*Budget,* [7 August, 1923.] 1923-24. 2217 I suppose some of its funds were used in legal expenses, and possibly other amounts have been wasted in consequence of this legal action. I ask the Treasurer to see whether something cannot be done to avoid such happenings as these. I have a word to say also on behalf of our old-age pensioners, who, because of the penury or unjust economy of the Government, have beenocmpelled to suffer on account of having been resident in some of our benevolent institutions. When the pension was 15s., the old men and women were allowed 2s. each as pocket money, 10s. 6d. was charged by the State for maintenance, and 2s. 6d. remained in the Federal Treasury. I understand, however, that there is to be an amendment of the Act so that the position of the pensioners may be improved. My only fear is that the authorities of the State institutions in which these old folks find a home, may raise the charge for maintenance, and thus .deprive them of the full advantage of the concession. I have here a specimen of the red-tape foolishness that is displayed by some of the Departments. It is a copy of a notice that was put up in one of these institutions, and, apparently, it was regarded as of great value, because, as I am informed, it was placed under glass. It is as follows: - >I shall be glad if you will "kindly make it known to pensioners who apply for leave in order to asK the restoration of their pensions, thatpensons will not .be restored in any case to a pensioner whilst on leave. He should apply by letter to this office Betting out the ground on which he claims restoration, when his case will receive consideration, and he should not leave until the result of his application has been received by him. We all know that great delay often occurs in the answering of such letters, especially when they are written by the cramped fingers of old age. I can see no reason why an old-age pensioner should not continue to receive his pension during his absence from Australia, if, for instance, some kind friend were to give him a trip to the Old Country. There are many parasites who shake the dust pf Australia off their feet, and spend the rest of their lives and their money overseas. The right honorable E. C. Childers was given an Australian pension after having been in this country for some three years and a half, and subsequently he was mean and contemptible enough, when, in London, I asked him to assist in defraying the expenses of two old Australians who desired to return to their home, to say, "I have severed, all connexion with Australia." That was a thundering untruth, as I found when I called for a parliamentary return showing what this gentleman had received. He was given this pensi'on, and drew it for many years, on the ground that he had been deprived of a great chance of promotion when responsible government was established in Victoria. That ground, again, was false, as is shown by the fact that **Mr. Childers** rose to be Lord Chancellor of England. It is possible that Australia, without the direct permission of' the people, will be called upon to contribute largely to the cost of the naval base at Singapore. According to two of the most advanced thinkers in the Navy, one dead and one alive, that base will be useless for capital ships; but if it has to be established. I think the Government ought to act upon a suggestion made by ex-Senator Chataway that Australia should make a contribution, not in money, but in the form of Australian-manufactured iron to be used in the construction of the base. By that means the money would be spent in Australia, and the iron industry further developed. I have been greatly perturbed by information as to the scandalous conditions under which the produce of Australian orchardists is sold. In the Budget there c are these two items, " Losses on Fruit Pools, £312,000,"- and "Fruit Pool advances, £551,000." In the *Australasian* of the 4th August, there appeared the following : - >Some firms in San Francisco interested in Australian fruits conceived the idea some time ago of, importing specimen varieties, and placed an order in the Commonwealth for 500 cases of Almeria grapes. The shippers packed them with the greatest of .care, and on arrival at San Francisco the fruit turned out in excellent condition. Officials of the California Department of Agriculture pronounced the fruit to be splendid, but they prohibited the importers from placing the graces on sale within the boundaries of that State on account of the danger of introducing the Mediterranean fruit fly. Quarantine' officers stated that some of the fruit was grown in a district known to be infested with the viticultural pent, which, according to the State law, banned their sale. The grapes were then sent to New York, and transportation proved a success. While the experiment showed that shipments of fresh grapes could be carried out successfully, past happenings in the United States of Amer isa. *in* respect to imported fruit suggest that development of the trade would be attended with risk. All kinds of trickery, it is said, 'have been resorted to in San Francisco by handlers of domestic products to damage the reputation of Australian fruits. Apart from practices of that nature, officialdom in California in all probability will exercise its utmost powers to check any .competition from outside sources. Then in the *Brisbane Courier* of the 24th July this was published - **Sir,** Having had a very large experience in selling Australian canned fruits all over the world, I venture to say that the people most concerned, viz., the fruit-growers, must be staggered to know that the disposal of their fruits has been placed in the hands of an American* who acted for the Californian packers in California in 1910 and 1920. I venture to say that .there is not one canner An Australia who would dream of making such an appointment. Surely t3ie people in authority must know that the Californian canners, taking fright at the great amount of Australian jams sold by Australia in America in 1919 and 1921, tried to get the Tariff Board in New York to embargo Australian canned goods from entering America, notwithstanding Australia had to pay a duty of about 30 per cent., and having failed, the traders of California were told that unless they put Australian goods out of their shops, they would not be supplied. The result is to-day, where Australian goods were in every store in California not a sign of our goods is to be seen. The most marvellous part of the appointment of **Mr. Ennis** to London at £100 a mon u/ and his passage paid, .is the fact that he arrived here in Australia, and actually got the appointment over the head of Freeman andCompany. of Melbourne and London, who are the buyers for tine largest food providers in the world, with headquarters in London. That is a reference to the Lyons firm, in London, and any one who has had experience of that firm as purveyors to the public will know the scope of its operations. It is estimated that it supplies 10,000,000 meals a week, or 520,000,000 meals a year. The letter continues - >I am in a position to say, without fear of contradiction, that Freeman and Company, whilst acting as sellers last year for the Pool, did great service, but the market was bad, and the Customs Department were advised by Freeman and Company that if a lower price were taken they could dispose of the whole output, but the Customs Department absolutely refused to sell as advised by Freeman and Company. > >The Whole Fruit Pool management by the Customs Department is a huge joke, and those interested' in the business throw up their hands in disgust. The Canned Fruits Pools have lost in the vicinity of over £500,000 of the tax- payers' money, and no wonder with such management It is well known in the trade that the present Pool's committee (who are men that know their business) made certain recommendations four months ago, but -the Customs Department has done nothing to put these into effect. > >Australia has the best canned fruit in the world, and the Californians know it. and, until those in the Customs Department, who, metaphorically speaking, do not know a peach from a carrot, take the advice of the committee appointed for the purpose, Australia will go on losing hundreds of thousands of pounds. America spends, and has spent, hundreds of thousands of pounds advertising their goods abroad. What lias Australia done? Nothing. Yet every traveller who came back from abroad says Pie same old thing - had packing, bad grading. Rubbish ! We have the best canned fruits in the world. The whole trouble is the men sent to sell are not salesmen. They are Trade Commissioners, or order getters - a. very wide difference. Australian canned fruits are not being sold in London to-day, every one being given away. The Customs Department should get out of .the business, and leave it to the people who know something about it. > >There is a lot of talk about finding markets for our canned fruits. It .is utter rot. A man who could not sell Australian .canned fruits in any part of the world could not give away good whisky in a dry country. > >There are in Australia to-day 800,000 cases of '.pooled canned fruit's unsold. In London there are about 200,000 cases. What is being done to dispose of these goods? Practically nothing. > >If something is not done at once, we shall have another season's pack on our hands early in the New Year, and then the taxpayers will he stung for another £500,000. Unless the Government acts at once there is nothing more certain than the absolute ruination of the fruit industry. What is wanted is that the Government act on the advice of the Committee appointed for the purpose, and take the control out of the hands of the Customs .Department. Start a,n advertising campaign in Australia and elsewhere, and appoint some one - an Australian - who knows the job to sell the goods, and one who will tell the grocers of Australia that if they sell American foodstuffs they will not he supplied. Surely if America can do it, Australia can do it. > >Can any one imagine anything so crazy as to appoint one's competitor to sell one's own goods Things, too, are coming to a pretty pass, surely. Can any intelligent business man understand this? The best factories' in Australia are situated in Melbourne and Victoria. What happens? One thousand five hundred tons of fresh peaches were carted through Melbourne, put on the Sydney train at Spencer-street, .freighted to Sydney, Darling Harbor, and thence -carted to Stanmore, a suburb of Sydney, and to Mount Druitt, a small country town of New South Wales, and there processed. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I am glad that the honorable member is condemning Government interference with trade. {: #subdebate-24-0-s1 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Never mind what I am doing. This is my pigeon, and I have not yet learned to he afraid to tackle any subject when necessary. The letter continues - This handling is a dead loss. All the 1,500 tons could have been processed in the Melbourne factories, and should have been, tout no, the powers that hepay away the taxpayers' moneywithout a blush. Was ever such an unbusinesslike action done, even under Government control? Idonotquiteagreewiththelast part oftheletter,butIobject,withthe writer, to the employment of an American engaged in the trade to sell for us. The last Prime Minister (the Right Honorable W. M. Hughes) took up the right position when he insisted that there should be one selling body in London, so that our agents would not be competing with one another to the injury of Australian producers. The whole House, I think, applauded the adoption of that course, and why has any change been made in that policy? If **Mr. Ennis** is an American, he has no reason to be ashamed of belonging to that glorious nation, but if he is working in the interests of the American Fruit Combine, he has good reason to be ashamed. When he was here he spoke with a very strong Canadian or American accent, and it is difficult to decide between them. As early as the 4th June last I asked this question - What position in the Commonwealth service, or the Commonwealth Fruit Pool, does **Mr. Ennis** occupy? This is the answer I received - **Mr. Ennis** occupies no position in the Commonwealth service. He is at present assisting the selling organization in London in disposing of the stock of Commonwealth canned fruit there. That answer was an absolute untruth. Perhaps, to be quite parliamentary, I should say that it was very grossly inaccurate. It took the Trade and Customs Department about a weekto give me the information that **Mr. Ennis** was employed by the CommonwealthGovernment. I am not attackingthe Minister for Trade and Customs personally in this matter, because even the youngest member of this Committee is aware that the answers to questions put to Ministers are prepared by officers of their Departments. But when a Minister is given a swelled pup in this way, he should make it clear to the officer responsible that such a thing, must not occur again. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- I accept the responsibility. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I am sure the honorable gentleman does not accept responsibility for the telling of an untruth. My second question was, " Where does he come from ?" and the answer given was - It is understood that **Mr. Ennis** returned to Australia from Great Britain last year. Honorable members will note the cunning dodging of my inquiry. It is very clever, but I thought I had got at the Department in my third question, " What nationality is he?" The answer given was - He is believed to be of British origin. As the vast majority of Americans are of British -origin, that was merely a method of dodging my question. I asked the further question - By whom was he recommended, and what are his qualifications ? This is the answer I received - His credentials were carefully examined, and showed that he possessed an intimate and full knowledge of the canned fruit industry, both on the technical and commercial sides. The answer did not supply information as to where **Mr. Ennis** gained his knowledge, and I am still awaiting information on that point. It is no disgrace to him if he is an American, but if he is ashamed to admit it, there must be some reason for it which he is not prepared to disclose. Later on I put this question - Who recommended **Mr. Ennis** to the Tariff Board, and what are his qualifications? This was the reply - The Tariff Board, after several interviews with **Mr. Ennis,** were satisfied that his intimate acquaintance with the canned fruit trade of Great Britain would enable him to materially assist in disposing of the stocks of canned fruit. The splendid arrangement of having one selling agency in London for the disposal of the whole of the fruit of Australia has been destroyed. The orchardists, if they had been consulted, wouldnever have agreed to such a drastic alteration. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- The new agency sold more fruit in a month Chan the other disposed of in a year. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I examined the figures to-day, and they prove that that statement is inaccurate. The Minister knows that the firm of Lyons, in London, selling 10,000,000 meals a week, has greater opportunities to put the canned fruit of Australia before their customers than have any other body of men. That was the position under the old *regime.* This is another question I asked - " Have the States which are members of the Pool been informed of any change of policy, and have they approved of such change?" The wily answer is, " See reply to number 3." I shall read the whole of the questions and the answers. The questions were - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. When the Fruit Pool for 1921-1022 was established, did the former Prime Minister **(Mr. W. M. Hughes)** notify to the other members of the Pool, and, if so, on what dates, the policy of the Government as to the appointment of a sole selling agency in London 7 1. What were the reasons for the Government adopting this policy) 2. Has such policy been changed by the present Government, and, if so, when was any notification given to the members of the Pool prior to the abandonment of the former policy of the Hughes Government? 3. Have the States which are members of the Pool been informed of any change of policy, and have they approved of such change? 4. Who is responsible for the recommendation to change such policy? 5. What was such recommendation, and by whom and when was it made? To those questions the following replies were given : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. In the scheme approved by the late Government on 28th November, 1921, the following provision was included: - "All sales in the United Kingdom shall be made through an official representative to be appointed by the Governments of the Commonwealth and the States which are concerned in the Pools. In the event of a failure to arrive at a satisfactory agreement, the appointment shall be made by the Government of the Commonwealth." In the Melbourne press of 29th November, 1921, the former Prime Minister is«.' reported to have stated, when announcing the decision of Cabinet, that "He could not agree to give assistance if there was to be competition among the selling organizations on the London market resulting in one man undercutting the other, which he (the former Prime Minister) alleged had taken place the previous year." 1. See reply to No. 1. 2. No. Weddell and Company, Peabody and Company, and the Overseas Co-operative Federation arc acting 'in conjunction as one selling agency in London in respect of Pool fruits. 3. 5, and 6. See reply to No. 3. The former agency was supplanted by three, if not four agencies. The statement of the Minister that they sold more in one month than the previous agency sold in twelve months is inaccurate. The true position is that the first agency asked for the limit of 12s. 6d. to be re- > **Dr.** *'Maloney.* duced,so as to enable it to effect a large sale at 12s., but the request was delayed. Will the Minister say at what figure the new agents sold the fruit? Was it 7s. 6d. or 8s. 6d. ? I believe it was sold at a huge loss to the fruit-growers and canners of Australia. The new agents were allowed a reduction of shillings, although the other agency was not allowed a reduction of pence. Are not Weddell and Company interested more in the sale of meat rather than of fruit ? The Minister has furnished no reply to that question. The Overseas Farmers' Company is dominated by **Mr. Meares,** who has had no great experience. Who are Peabody and Company ? They, for years, have been connected with American dried and canned fruits. Is Australia so poor that we have to upset suitable arrangements in order to place the business in the hands of several men, one whose nationality is hidden, and another well known because of his Californian experience? The officer who supplied the answer to the Minister knew well that the States had not been informed of the change of policy. The answer is, " See reply to number 3," and that has nothing to do with the subject. Five people, instead of one, are now engaged in the disposal in London of Australian fruit. They are Weddell and Company, Peabody and Company, the Overseas Farmers' Company, **Mr. Meares,** and **Mr. Ennis.** I do not object to the trade in peaches going to a neighbouring State. If Sydney can compete with our Victorian canners, good luck to it. I understand that the goods from the Goulburn Valley are landed in Sydney for £2 per ton. That seems to me very low freight for such a long railway journey. I received- a letter from the Amalgamated Food Preserving Employees Union of Australia showing that the closing of the Fruit Pool would injure the splendid canning industry of New South Wales. No honorable member wants to do that. If the New South Wales industry can compete against Victoria, good luck to it. I do not know whether ^Victorian fruit-growers and canners belong to the Fruit Combine which i is dominated by **Sir Henry** Jones. That may be the reason why this State has been hampered in its fruit trade. A stereotyped reply is given to many of my questions. I asked this question of the Minister - "Is it a fact that Messrs. Peabody and Company are largely interested in the sale of Calif ornian canned fruit?" I want that to sink into honorable members' minds. I am told that a previous firm - Freeman and Company - were refused their request for sixpence under the selling cost per dozen tins. If the reply to that request was not immediately given then the Minister was neglecting his duty to the fruit-growers of Australia. In this way, a sale involving hundreds of thousands of tins was held over. We cannot expect any one who is connected with the American dried or canned fruits trade to push Australian goods when interested in Californian. The question continues - > >Is it a fact that Messrs. Weddell and Company are largely interested in the sale of meat, and apparently are not well known in connexion with the sale of canned fruits? > >Is it a fact that the Overseas Farmers' Company, of which **Mr. Meares** was the director, is not well known in connexion with the sale of canned or other fruits in London? > >Did **Mr. Meares** recommend or advise, directly or indirectly, that his company - the Overseas Farmers' Company - should be appointed to sell Australian canned goods? > >During the agency of former agents for the 1021-22 Fruit Pool, were the recommendations of the former agents to reduce the reserves, owing to the markets, from time to time ignored? > >If so, why were their recommendations ignored ? > >Where the recommendations of the present fruit agents immediately given effect to? > >Will the Government circulate, for the information of honorable members, the recommendations of the High Commissioner, and report as to the reasons for the appointment of Messrs. Weddell and Company, theOverseas Farmers' Company, Messrs. Peabody and Company, and **Mr. Ennis?** > >Is not the effect of the appointment nominally of three separate firms, namely, Messrs. Weddell and Company, Messrs. Peabody and Company, and the Overseas Farmers' Company, to change the policy of the Hughes Government to have only one firm? 10. Do the three firms concerned divide the whole of the commission, irrespective of whether the sales are effected by one firm; or does each firm receive commission on each sale effected *by* each firm? > >Who keeps the books of the separate companies? > >Does each firm keep a separate record of each sale effected? > >Is there any contract or written agreement appointing each firm; will the Minister produce the contract or agreement tor the information of honorable members? The reply of the Minister was that the information was being obtained. Unless honorable members are informed that the firm of Freeman and Company did not properly carry out their duty, they should appoint a Committee of inquiry. That firm had the fullest confidence of the largest restaurant-keepers of Great Britain, or, perhaps, of- the world, and that advantage has been sacrificed. When Freeman and Company were refused a reduction of 6d. per dozen, and the answer from the Department was so long delayed, the sale was lost. Any person who hopes to beat the Americans in business enterprise must rise up early in the morning and keep his eyes open. I cannot say whether the Minister or the officer was to blame for the delay, but the sale was lost. The new company, however, was able to get an immediate answer, and, I believe, sold for about 8s per case. That of course meant a loss to the Australian fruit-growers. I think these transactions call for action by members of the Country party. The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Austin Chapman)** said that the new combine had sold more fruit in one month than the others had sold in a year ; but an answer with which he furnished me shows that the total sales to that date were 80,873 cases, of which Freeman and Company had sold 49,302 since the 6th April, 1922, and the new selling organization had sold 31,000 cases since the 28th May. Those figures clearly disprove the Minister's statement. In any case, the combine sold at a reduced price, for included in their sales was much fruit that could have been sold on a 6d. reduction basis. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr Pratten: -- At that rate of selling it would take ten years to sell the whole of the fruit. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I understand that the fruit of California, owing to excessive irrigation, is so soft that it does not make as good jam as does the fruit grown in Australia, especially in the Goulburn Valley. Perhaps the honorable member for Martin **(Mr. Pratten)** can give me expert information on that point. {: .speaker-K1J} ##### Mr Pratten: -- I understand that there is less flavour in fruit grown by irrigation than in fruit grown under natural conditions. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- That corroborates the information I have received. In the *Age* of the 23rd July, of this year, appeared this letter regarding the Fruit Pool- Taxpayers have been bled to the extent of about £600,000 in running the canned fruit Pools. The. Prime Minister was wise in refusing to commit the Government to a Pool for 1924. Before the Cabinet comes to a decision the public should be fully informed on the following points: - First, actual amount paid by the taxpayers; (2) the names of those who supplied fruit for canning, quantity, and amount paid; (3) the number .of exsoldiers who supplied fruit for canning, and amount received from the Fool; (4) salaries paid and1 estimated cost of administration of the Pool; (5) are the costs of management deducted from the purchase of the fruit. Whoever is responsible for the comparative figures of American canned fruit in London and America, should also prepare a return showing the prices ruling in Australia and London for the same period. If they did so, they would find' about the same difference in the selling prices. I think I have given the Committee sufficient information to show that there is need for full inquiry into this matter. The honorable member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse)** yesterday denounced the workers, amongst others, for the high cost of living, and argued that if wages were reduced, the prices of foodstuffs would be lowered, and "everything in the garden would be lovely." If the honorable member's argument were followed to its logical conclusion, it would lead to serfdom. Slaves are cheaper than wage earners. Only 150 or 200 years ago a form of serfdom prevailed throughout Europe. It is not the workers, but the combines, which are controlling the prices throughout the markets of the world. The price paid for kerosene by a woman on an out-back farm is fixed by the Standard Oil Company. The prices of tobacco, cigars, and cigarettes, are governed from America. On my trip to Japan last year I called at an island where hand-made cigarettes, longer and heavier than the ordinary cigarettes made in Australia, were obtainable at the rate of 2s. 6d. for 1,400. But, of course, one has. to acquire a taste for the tobacco used in them. Japan, which is the only country that has -ever successfully fought the American Tobacco Trust, experienced a difficulty in getting the Japanese people to change their taste in tobacco. According to a paragraph in this morning's *Age,* Krupp's workers, who had invested 100,000,000 marks in a profit-sharing scheme, vail lose practically all their money in consequence of English and French capitalists having acquired control of the great works at Essen. Notwithstanding that the French Army of occupation is in the Ruhr valley, the capitalists continue their international dealings. As the honorable member for Bourke **(Mr. Anstey)** shows in his splendid ' work *Money Power,* money controls us in all things. No Treasurer's education can be complete until he has read that book. Who raises the prices of foodstuffs? Ask any housewife how the grocer, the butcher, and the baker are taking increased toll from her every day. According to a recent calculation by the Commonwealth Statistician **(Mr. Wickens),** the cost of living for a normal family in Victoria increased by 6s. per week during the June quarter. In other words, every worker lost ls. per day in wages. As the *Age* of 7th August says - That may not seem *a* great deal to the lordly profiteer basking in affluence, but for the thousands of unfortunate folk who live perenially on the bread line it means absolute personal sacrifice. The food supply must be cut down; men, women, and children must suffer in a way that is inconceivable to the wealthy, and inevitably the health of a large section of the community suffers, whilst the spirit of discontent is fostered and encouraged. There is no objection to capital as such. That is the opinion of **Sir Leo** Chiozza Money, a statist so pre-eminent in England that His Majesty the King has honoured him with a knighthood. Unlike some Australians, he did not buy his title, but won it with the greatness of the grey matter in his brain. I do not object to capital, nor does any member of the party to which I belong, but we do object . to that system which places the control of capital in the hands of a few persons. Who would object to more houses, railways, ships, trams, telephones, postoffices, and telegraphs? They are all forms of capital. How . the people have been crowded into the cities by the infamous raising of railway and tram fares. Any fool could increase fares in order to bring about a temporary increase of receipts. Victoria need not pay a man £5,000 per annum to do that. The higher the rates and fares become the more will people crowd into th cities, thus compelling families to live in rooms instead of in houses. I asked the Prime Minister to-day the following questions: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that representations have been made by the Federal Council of the Institute of Architects concerning the revival of the world-wide competition for the Federal Houses of Parliament at Canberra? 1. Is the Government about to abandon the said competition; if so, will it consider the question of compensating each of the 210 registered competitors in order to modify the possible stigma on, and also to protect the honour of, Australia? The reply to the first was " Yes," and the reply to the second was that the matter would be considered. I maintain that if we do not keep faith with these gentlemen, or pay them compensation, the honour of Australia will be besmirched and we shall be disgraced. When we decided to hold a competition the conditions were blazoned throughout the length and breadth of Christendom. The exigencies of war compelled a postponement of our programme. Later on the competition was made public again, and another interruption occurred. Now, I believe that some of the schemers who tried to destroy our splendid plan for a Federal Capital are willing to have Australia's name disgraced. But just as some 200 of the chief architects of Australia lodged a petition of protest with **Sir Joseph** Cook, then Prime Minister of Australia, and stopped the abomination that was known as the departmental plan, so we should to-day protest against what is being done. Honorable members know that **Colonel Owen, Mr. Murdoch,** and others prepared the departmental plan. They took the plans of one man and extracted certain ideas from them; then they took the plans of another, and another, and another, and extracted ideas from each of them. From these ideas they made the composite thing which they called the departmental plan. It was nothing but a fraud. . It was just as if a second-class artist had? painted over a picture by Rubens or Raphael. It was a hotch-potch. **Sir Joseph** Cook stopped that infamy at once. Do we propose to remain silent now that the chief architects of Australia are discussing what is being done in respect to Canberra? I shall quote the remarks of some of these gentlemen, as reported in 'the publication *Building,* printed in Sydney. The article is headed " Canberra." It reads - >About twenty-four members attended the special general meeting of the New South > >Wales Institute of Architects held at 5 p.m. on Friday, 5th July. The vice-president, Colonel Spain, who presided in the absence of **Sir Charles** Rosenthal, explained that the meeting had been called as an outcome of the action taken by the president of the Federal Council and to indorse or otherwise the action of the president of the Federal Council in connexion with Canberra. **Mr. Waterhouse** said it had been felt that the Federal Government should keep faith with the competitors, both in Australia and other parts of the Empire, in connexion with the competition for Parliament House that had been announced on several occasions and finally been abandoned. The Council had .been endeavouring to have the matter revived, and he thought the simplest way to put the matter would be to read portion of the report of the president of the Federal Council: - " I have had an opportunity of inspecting the advantages of the proposed Parliament House at Canberra, and I am inclined to think that the Houses of Parliament would be better situated on Kurrajong Hill. Prior to the war an interesting national competition for Parliament House was initiated; it was twice postponed, and ultimately the Federal Government abandoned the competition, notwithstanding that plans had been drawn up and architects had incurred expense in the preparation of competitive schemes. > >When the members of the Federal Council of the Institute of Architects waited upon the then Minister for Works and Railways **(Mr. Foster),** fifteen months ago, he said that a permanent building could not be erected in the time. Had the Government taken steps then, the competition could have been completed; the ideas of architects could have been obtained, and the body of the future structure could have been erected, with temporary additions, to meet immediate needs; as extensions became necessary year by year, they could have been added, and bit by bit the whole scheme completed; . £200,000 would not be thrown away, and the Government would avoid the stigma of breaking its pledges to the architects of the Empire. > >Some of the best brains in the architectural profession of Australia were represented in the deputation that waited upon the Minister for Works and Railways, and showed that the body of a building could be erected as easily as the provisional building now proposed, and not a penny thrown away. The deputation was ridiculed, its proposals turned down, and it was told that the officers of the Department knew as well as the deputation did what they required. If the original scheme had been followed the Government would be far advanced to-day towards the erection of the permanent structure." That competition was announced all over the world. I believe it is an impertinence and an insult to some of the "greatest architects in the world that their proposals should have been ridiculed by the departmental .officers. The report of the president, as printed in that article, continues : - " The Institute of Architects had no direct representation on the Advisory Committee. **Mr. John** Sulman is a member of the Royal Institute Of British Architects and a member of the Institute of Architects of New South Wales, but he has ceased to practise, and he devotes his time to consultation and doing other good things; but he does not represent the architectural profession, and was not nominated by the Institute, which offered to provide representation free of cost to the Government,but the proposal was rejected. If the competition for Parliament House had been proceeded with, work upon the permanent building could be started now. If the Government had obtained 100 designs from architects all over the world, it would have had the product of the brains of able firms and individuals all looking at the scheme from different angles, and that knowledge would have been of material assistance in this great undertaking. The present scheme did not appeal as the foundation of a great Federal Capital City; it was a paltry idea. The Federal president was told that the provisional building was to be removed after about thirty years, but he had never known a public building that was temporary. Surely at a cost of £200,000 the Commonwealth Government could provide at Canberra the nucleus of one great building; the ornamentation need not matter for the time being; the building could be constructed from the interior and developed outward. The accommodation essential could be built for £300,000 provided some of the quarters were treated inexpensively." Such an infamy as the present attitude towards the architects should not be permitted to continue. Australian architects should be permitted to send in competitive designs for any building which is to cost over £3,000. The Commonwealth Bank business was the greatest piece of nepotism that I have ever experienced in my long political life. {: #subdebate-24-0-s2 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr W M HUGHES:
North Sydney -- I should not have spoken on this Budget were it not for the fact that by mysilence I might be held to have approved it, and to have accepted its statements as being a fair presentation of the position. There is another reason whyI feel it incumbent upon me to speak. Those who are specially interested in this criticism of the previous Government's financial policy - for that is the effect of this Budget - are either out of this Parliament or are colleagues of the honorable gentleman who has presented the Budget, and so their mouths are closed. They are unable to speak for themselves, so I must speak for them. The honorable gentleman has claimed as a special and note worthy feature of this Budget that it has been introduced earlier than any previous Budget. That is quite true. It can hardly be said, however, that the credit is due to that honorable gentleman, for he himself has created the very circumstance which has made impossible a later presentation of the Budget to this House. If he had not presented the Budget when he did he could not have done it at all. It had to be done now or not done at all. Of course, if it be held that the fates have determined our courses, and that we are merely like corks on the ocean of circumstance, neither blame nor credit belongs to any man. But, in this case, surely the honorable member has himself created the very conditions that he affects to deplore. It is he who proposes to close the Parliament. And so he can hardly "take credit for introducing the Budget earlier than usual. If he had not introduced it now he could not have introduced it at all this year. The Treasurer says that this Budget marks a new era. It does, but the honorable gentleman is wrong in supposing that it is the kind of era that he would have us believe. That we may be in a position to consider the Budget fairly, it is necessary to emphasize the purpose for which a Budget is presented. The Budget has always been an object of special importance in British assemblies the world over, because it is the outward and visible sign of the control of expenditure by the people. That is the very foundation of our parliamentary government. , The Commons have always most jealously guarded their rights on the Budget. And the rights of this House are not less clear nor more zealously guarded than those of the Commons itself. In every Parliament throughout the British Empire the more numerous House has insisted on its right to control expenditure. In order to control expenditure, it is essential that the facts should be clearly and accurately set out. The Budget should he a clear statement of the public accounts so that members of Parliament may judge whether the proposed expenditure is necessary and proper. A Budget which is not clear, full, and accurate, does not enable Parliament to exercise its function. The first essential to proper and effective criticism is knowledge. The Budget should be prepared and presented in such a way that the man in the street may understand it. Otherwise, a Budget stands condemned on the very face of it. The Budget, then, must be a clear, accurate, and full statement of the Nation's financial position. In the light of this statement of the position, I want honorable members to look carefully at this Budget. It is perfectly true that the statements of accounts of some private companies are made public in such a way that nobody can understand them. I suppose it was the outstanding merit of the Budgets presented by Treasurers in other days, when people did not have a vote, that nobody could understand them. But other times other manners. The people have taken to themselves more and more power, and it is now essential that the statements of accounts should be made so clear that every one who has the right to exercise a vote may understand the figures. If it is not thus clear then a Budget is useless, or worse, and Parliament is wasting its time in considering it. Let us take the Budget as it is, and judge it by this standard.' But there are other standards, and the honorable gentleman, however much he may take exception to the standards set up by others, cannot take exception to those he himself set for other Governments that preceded this. Let us see what the Budget looks like when these successive tests are applied to it. I shall quote from the honorable gentleman's speeches, so that he and honorable members may judge this Budget out of his own mouth. Unfortunately, many of the honorable gentleman's statements escaped me at the time they were made. His criticisms were severe, and couched in language calculated, no doubt, to disturb my serenity. Happily for me, and for mankind, too, they did not. I did not hear them, and so they passed unheeded; but the disciples of Caxton have perpetuated his words of wisdom, and I have refreshed my memory - or, rather, informed myself of what he said. I shall apply that which he said of others to himself. Now, let us take this Budget. The honorable gentleman claims to be doing two tilings: First, he says he is effecting a big saving on last year's expenditure; and, second, that he is liv ing within his estimated income. As a matter of fact, he is doing neither. I should be the last to condemn a man who was not doing either of these things, if he but stated his position plainly. I do not condemn him because he is spending more than his income, but for pretending to be that which he is not. When we meet a spendthrift, who greets the world with a smile, and marks his indifference to wealth, and that smug respectability which suits wealth so well, by displaying his pockets turned out and his hands full of race tickets, we know what he is. He does not try to hide his position. I shall show that the honorable gentleman makes good neither of these claims. I should not, perhaps, have referred to this matter but for the fact that by keeping silence I might be held to accept what the honorable gentleman says as a true presentation of the facts. But his Budget is the very reverse of this. The Prime Minister, who was the previous Treasurer, cannot very well do this duty because of his position, and for that reason I must do it myself. The Treasurer claims that he is spending less than his income and effecting a saving on last year, and the Budget is presented to convey that impression. It is an impression that any man would get on reading the Budget speech, and I undertake to say that the bulk of the people of the country now would say, Yes, this fellow has got a surplus." People might be very much astonished, but somehow or other they would take it that the surplus was there. Yet nothing can be further from the truth. If honorable members will turn to the Budget statement they will see three items, to which reference has already been made. I emphasize these points, because they need emphasis from one who must take the greater share of responsibility for the finances of this country during the last seven or eight years. Those three items are: Roads Development', £500,000; purchase of wire netting, £250,000; and taxation officers' compensation, £200,000- a total of £950,000. I think honorable members will be - at any rate, I am - in hearty accord with the- objects on which the money proposed is to be spent; but, With the exception of the taxation officers' compensation, I think it can be fairly said that the pre- vious Government gave the lead. It was the previous Government that first made available a large sum for main roads, and placed wire -netting on the free list. But it is not a question of the expenditure of the money, it is a question of the presentation of accounts. The Acts under which these amounts are authorized to be spent are set out in the Budget in blanks; that is to say, they are Acts *in future* The honorable gentleman asks us to consider a Budget in which he has set down these items, although these items are not on these Estimates. Nor were they on last year's Estimates. I wish honorable members to realize quite clearly what this implies. It is the prerogative of Parliament to control expenditure, and, in order to control it, Parliament must be able to say " Yes " or " No " to any particular item. The Treasurer tells us that the Government will spend this money, and got the credit for spending it, while others will be debited with the expenditure. There is no authority for this expenditure, and if the House were to say " No " the Treasurer could not spend one penny of it. But there is no way in which the House can express approval or disapproval, so far as I can see. They have been taken out of the control of Parliament ! Will any man tell me that this i-3 the kind of restoration of Parliamentary control of public finance which the honorable gentleman declared to ,be essential, and that we are entitled to expect? The Treasurer tells us that the estimated expenditure out of revenue for 1923-24 was £61,896,098, while the -estimated revenue ' for 1923-24 is £61,943,250, which leaves, according to his statement, a surplus of £47,152. For the moment I leave out all reference to the Fruit Pool. Now, the Treasurer gets his surplus by charging to last year £950,000, which he proposes to spend this year, but which has not been voted, and of which there is no authority to spend one penny. I am bound to say that this does mark a new era, and, certainly, it accounts for the surplus. But it is not a surplus for which the honorable gentleman is entitled to take any credit. It belongs to his predecessor. By every canon of public and private finance, he ought to charge his expenditure for this year to the year in which it is to be spent. I have referred to those three items, but there are others. I cannot say how many more there are, but it may be fairly said that of the cost of the conversion of loans, fully £100,000 is charged improperly to last year. . Thus we have the position that somewhere about- £1,050,000, which ought to be charged to -this year, is charged improperly to last year, and of those items the greater portion, at any rate of the £950,000, has not yet been authorized by Parliament. Further, unless a motion is carried referring the Budget back to the Government, there is no way in which the Parliament can control these items. Another position arises out of this one. Does the Treasurer propose to continue this policy of main roads development? Does he propose next year to grant £500,000 for that purpose? Does he propose next year to make a grant of £250,000 for wire netting? If he does, to which year does he propose to charge the expenditure; to this or next year ? If he is going to charge it to this year his surplus, by his own act, is gone- - doubly gone. If to next year, how does he explain his action in charging these items to last year in this Budget? If they are going to be charged to next year, then the action disclosed by this Budget is condemned. If the Government do not propose to continue such a vote, this is a mere flash in the pan, it is a method of diverting the country - it is merely -a. rocket sent up in order to illuminate the cimmerian darkness and induce people to believe that things are being done. If this is going to be a settled policy these items of expenditure will never come before the House because they will always be charged to the previous financial year, and will not appear on the current year's Estimates. The Treasurer has not had the experience of his colleague the present Prime Minister **(Mr. Bruce),** and he may have thought it was a perfectly natural and even a proper thing to charge his predecessors with the expenditure of money that he proposes to spend himself. This may be excusable in a neophyte, but it will surely not commend itself to this Committee. Now, let us see how the Treasurer gets his surplus. If honorable members will look at page 10 of the Budget they will find in the Estimates of revenue an expenditure of £250,000 payment of advance to the Fruit Pool. On page 11 of the Budget they will find in the estimates of expenditure the items, " Fruit Pool losses,' £312,000," and "Advances to 1922-23 Fruit Pool, £551,000." Now what has the Treasurer done? It would be very amusing if it were not so serious. What the honorable gentleman has done has been to debit the last Government with the losses and the advances, and credit himself with the refunds, some of which have not yet come to hand. By debiting the last Government with the whole of the advances and with all the losses and not crediting them as a set-off with the amount that has been repaid, he is able to credit himself with the difference between the amount of repayments £250,000 and the advances of £551,000, or, roughly, £300,000. I ask the honorable gentleman whether he calls that straightforward finance? Ought he not to have set off the refunds against the advances and cancelled the advances to that extent? If I advance £1,000 to a man, and he refunds £300 to some other person, is the latter entitled to put the £300 into his own pocket and then say that I have lost £1,000 and he has made a profit of £300 ? By charging the three items to which I have referred to last year the Treasurer is able to make it appear that he is £1,050,000 better off than he really is ! By debiting his predecessors with the Fruit Pool losses and advances and crediting himself with the refund of £250,000 he swells his revenue with another quarter of a million. He does quite right to sa.y that this Budget marks a new era ! Let us try to get at the facts. Eliminating from the expenditure debited to this year the figures for the Fruit Pool, and debiting to last year £1,050,000 improperly taken into this year, the expenditure for last year is £61,780,485 as against a revenue of £64,720,635. While this year's position is - revenue, £61,693,000; expenditure, £62,946,000. In other words, the excess of this year's expenditure over last year is £1,176,000, and the excess expenditure for *1923-24 over the* estimated revenue for that year is £1,250,000, which is to say that the Treasurer has gone to the bad to the' extent of £1,250,000. The honorable gentleman will, no doubt, give us his version of his new system of bookkeeping, which, on the face of it, has many advantages. It is, of course, perfectly well known that Machiavelli was an Italian, and the excellence of the Italian system of bookkeeping is known to everybody ; but it has been reserved for the present Treasurer to link these two isolated facts together so that we now can really understand what Italian bookkeeping means. Perhaps the honorable gentleman will say that in doing what he did he followed the example of his predecessors. Let us look at the facts. In 1920-21 the honorable gentleman, submitted an amendment for the reduction of the Defence Estimates by £2,800,000. At that time **Senator Pearce,** one of the honorable gentleman's present colleagues, was on his way to Washington. Naturally, it was contemplated that the defence policy of the country would be affected by the Washington Conference. As honorable members know, it was very greatly affected by it. The Government of the day was unable to accept the honorable member's amendment. I think it can be shown that he is unable to accept what it proposed himself, now that he has opportunity to give effect to it. The Government at that time agreed to reduce the Defence Estimates by £500,000. It said that if the House would vote the sum of money that then appeared on the Estimates it would reduce the defence expenditure as and to the extent that the decisions of the Washington Conference justified. The position was thoroughly well known, and Parliament voted the sum of money asked for - that is to say, the Defence Estimates as presented, less £500,000, the amount which the Government agreed to take off. The Washington Conference was most successful, and the Government made many and considerable reductions, entailing wide-spread retrenchments in the Defence Department. A little while after the present Prime Minister accepted a portfolio in the late Government, a re-allotment of portfolios was made, and the previous Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** took office as Minister for Defence. The Government brought down the policy of retrenchment , which it had outlined the previous year. It had previously given notice to very many employees of the Defence Department that their services would be dispensed. with. At the time the Estimates were before the House most of those who were to be retrenched from the Defence Department had already severed their connexion with it. There was a sum of money which the Government had saved Out of the amount the Committee had voted, and within a few thousand pounds that was sufficient to pay the necessary compensation to retiring officers of the Defence Department. This amount was charged to the previous year. I ask honorable members to note the facts, lest the Treasurer should attempt to draw an analogy which does not lie. In the case referred to, the Parliament had voted the money; the Ministry had declared its policy, subject to the Washington Conference decisions being satisfactory. In this case Parliament has not voted a penny. It has not been consulted upon anything. The money cannot be spent, and the expenditure has not yet received the approval of Parliament. The proposal to compensate officers of the Income Tax Department upon their compulsory retirement is quite proper. They ought to be compensated, but I hope that the amount of compensation will not be determined until this Parliament has an opportunity of considering the proposals of the Government. If all this is to be done while Parliament is closed, I admit that this part of my argument fails; .but I apprehend that that is not the intention. Whatever is to be done has so far not been disclosed. I ask honorable members if they can gather from the Budget what are the proposals of the Government in this matter 2 They are apparently intended to be s«t out on page 11 of the Budget, but it is a very difficult matter to breathe into these dry bones a spirit of life and say what they really mean. One thing is plain enough, and it is that some, of the States - two, I think - will for the 'present year collect our income tax for us. I am not commenting upon this in any way, or criticising the policy of the Government in that or any other direction just now. All that I am saying is that this Budget does not tell us where we are, and is not an accurate presentation of Commonwealth accounts. The Treasurer is not living within his income. He has not made a saving on the expenditure of last year. He has improperly charged to last year expenditure that has yet to be made in this year, and for which parliamentary authority has not yet been given. I invite honorable members to note the difference between what was done by the last Government in connexion with the compensation of Defence Department officials, and what is proposed by the present Government according to the Treasurer's Budget. 1 have pointed out the vast difference between setting aside money Parliament has voted to give effect to a policy to which it has agreed, and charging to the expenditure of the last financial year votes for odd matters over which Parliament has no control, and in connexion with which it has not been consulted. The Treasurer has" no more right to charge the vote for main roads, and the vote for the purchase of wire netting, to last year's expenditure than he would have to charge expenditure from loan on public works to be carried out this year to the expenditure of last year. It is a well-settled practice that when a sum of money has been voted out of loan for a given work,, and that sum is not expended in the year for which it has been voted, the vote lapses, and has to be renewed. The honorable gentleman cannot show any analogy between the difference of £200,000 in Treasury operations and the amount granted in 1922 for defence purposes. Even if he could, the analogy with the main roads and wire netting expenditure would utterly fail. Yet it is by the manipuation of these figures and those relating to the Fruit Pool that he has contrived to turn what is a very serious deficit into a small surplus. By this means he has put on the wrong side of the ledger £750,000, and naturally wo are that amount to the bad. This is the only opportunity to discuss these items, and the Committee must understand that they cannot be dealt with on the Estimates. I have nothing to say against the expenditure of money for these item3. But unless instructions are given to the Government to withdraw the Budget, and to bring it down charging against this year items of expenditure which are properly chargeable to this year, then this Committee will have no control over the expenditure. We are entitled to know the true state of the public accounts, but this Budget does not disclose it. The honorable gentleman in 1921 said a great deal on the necessity for a clear financial statement, for economy, for reductions of the public debt, and for most radical financial reforms. Cognisant as 1 am of the many and great blessings that Providence has bestowed upon me, I cannot help thinking that the greatest of all was that which enabled me to avoid hearing what the honorable gentleman did say on this matter. On page 12027 of *Hansard,* 1921, the honorable gentleman says - >Such ideal economy is impossible without the revision of our system of government, with its duplication and extravagance..... > >The Government is avoiding attempting it by its evasion of the calling of the Federal Convention. There is something in these observations which the lapse of years has moulded into a form infinitely alluring; but none the less fatal to the honorable gentleman. That charge was made against the Government of which I was the head. It is to be understood that the honorable gentleman was talking about an amendment of the Constitution. I do not want to turn the dagger in the wound; but he has told us very definitely on very many occasions that ideal economy is impossible without an amendment of the Constitution. Well, what steps is he taking towards this great goal ? I shall repeat what I have said elsewhere, that there is in this House an overwhelming majority of members in this Chamber who are in favour of the amendment of the Constitution. There is a difference of opinion as to whether or not a Convention should be held ; but since all or nearly all of the Nationalist party, and every member of the Country party were returned to this Parliament in favour of a Convention, there must be a majority in favour of a Convention in this House. That au overwhelming majority of honorable members is in favour of the amendment of the Constitution goes without saying. The Treasurer should have given this House the opportunity to give effect to what he said was the condition precedent to ideal economy. The honorable gentleman stated that this country could not advance without the formation of new States. Where are they? What steps have been taken to form them ? On page 10234 of *Hansard* he says - and I want these words to sink in gradually, as they are too much to take in at a mouthful There has been a skilful juggling of expenditure from one Department to the other in order to defy the pursuit of what has actually occurred.' Take the three items I previously mentioned, which have not been voted, and for which there is no authority. Although charged to last year they are to be expended this year. Is that juggling? Then there is the Fruit Pool. The advances and losses are .charged to last year, and the money which has been refunded by the people to whom the last Government made advances. has been credited to this year. Is not that juggling? In any case, the manner of the presentation of the figures is juggling. The Treasurer says - >I desire to enter an emphatic objection to taking from the Postal Department the profits it makes, crediting them to general revenue. He condemns this practice. But what does he do? We find, on page 10 of the Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure,* under the heading of Post Office 1923-24, revenue £9,653,000. The Treasurer proposes to spend from the revenue of the Postmaster - General's Department £8,217,000. He spends on the Post Office £1,000,000 less than it earns. What is he doing with it? He does not tell us. But it is abundantly clear that he is using it for other Departments. Yet he entered an emphatic protest because the previous Government had done this thing. On page 12039 of the *Hansard* record for last year, he is reported to have said - >It is a moot point whether it is right to regard interest and sinking fund on debt as a war service. Such liabilities have come to stay, and the present method of treating them is misleading. ' That is what he said. But what has he done? Honorable members are well able to see what the honorable member has done. He has presented the figures in exactly the same way. He has treated them as a war service, and he has done what he said was most misleading. He has taken money from the Post Office Department and applied it to other Departments, although he said this was wrong. He asked - >Is the slovenliness of- the Budget a reflection of the irresponsibility and general methods of the administration of the Leader of the Government ? Are the evidences of dummying I have given mere slips or are they deliberately intended to mislead the people? I ask honorable members to note the Treasurer's language. It does not entitle him to merciful treatment. He brazenly claims a surplus when he has no surplus ; that he has spent less than his revenue, when, as a fact, he has spent more; that he is making a saving upon the previous year's expenditure, when he is not. He denounced his predecessors in unmeasured terms. He declared the last Budget to be slovenly, misleading, deliberately intended to deceive, and demanded that the Budget be presented honestly. Here is his own Budget, the Budget that marks a new era. Is it an honest Budget? Is it clear? Does it set out the position as it really is ? Can any man say that these figures are put in a way which any man in the street could understand.? If there could be summoned to the bar of this House the .first 100 men to be lassooed at the top of Bourke-street, not one would understand the financial position of this country from an inspection of the Budget. Why is the revenue of the Post Office taken from that Department and allotted to other governmental activities, and in its place loan moneys voted to the Post Office to carry out its functions? Why does he do all those things which he denounced of others, but which no one else has ventured to do? ' But let me quote him again- - >Why is the £162,000 for assisted passages to immigrants paid- out of loans instead of out of revenue ? Yet the honorable gentleman has done this unblushingly. Had any other- honorable member been concerned I would have said nothing, because man is imperfect. But the Treasurer strives after virtue. It is like clutching at a soap bubble - now you have it and now you have it not. The honorable gentleman poses as a philosopher, a teacher of virtue, especially in finance. "How can taxation ever be reduced," he asked, " if our indebtedness and interest bill are increased in every Budget? " He spoke of a dead weight of debt, and said that it could not become any "deader," But he has made it deader ! He has led the country to believe that he has reduced the public debt'. But he has increased it. If le carries out the proposals which he has outlined it will 'fee very much heavier. The honorable member referred to the sinking fund. He spoke as- one who was introducing some new and wonderful device to reduce our liabilities. Recently the honorable gentleman's party issued what may be termed a *communique* which .was published in the official journal of the Country party. It purported to give inside information, and it claimed for the honorable member's genius the authorship of the new sinking fund proposals. Doubtless there are some people in the country who may believe this, but what are the facts? In 1918 the Government of which I - was the head introduced and passed through Parliament the Sinking Fund Act. . We funded the war debt to Britain which has its own sinking fund. When the present Treasurer came into office he found ready for him a Bill, prepared by bis predecessor, to change the method of dealing with the moneys devoted to the liquidation of *the* war debt. I am not quite sure whether or not it had been laid before Parliament, but I am sure that the draft was in the Department. All that the present Treasurer did was to bring it to the House. Yet he has spoken of the sinking fund as if he was responsible for its conception. He would have the country believe that he is paying more into the sinking fund than his predecessor. He is not. On the contrary, he is paying less. I remind the Committee that, during the years 1920-21 and 1921-22, the contribution to the General Sinking Fund and the Funding Arrangements Sinking Fund was £6,168,410, or £3,084,410 per annum. Last year we paid into the fund, £2,401,934. The honorable member for Cowper is providing this year for the Sinking Fund £1,092,000, and towards the reduction of the debt to Great Britain £1,117,682, or, a total of only £2,209,682, considerably less than was provided by his predecessor. The honorable gentleman did not initiate the sinking fund; it was in existence, and had been operated before lie came into office. When he became Treasurer he found in the Department a Bill, which is now the law, dealing with a new sinking fund for the extinction of the war debt. He is not paying more, but less into this fund. In his speech from the corner last year, the Treasurer indicated " many places where gross extravagance and unexplained increases in administration have taken place, and a possibility of la:-ge reductions." This, he said, had been possible without any knowledge of departmental working. " It is not my duty, but the duty of the Executive Government," he said, " to say - where the most ready economy can be effected, and which services should bear the brunt of that economy. That is a matter where inside departmental knowledge would alone avail.". He has that inside knowledge now, but where has he effected economy ? He has cut down the Defence vote by £72,000, notwithstanding that the Council of Defence gave a solemn and unequivocal warning that the defence expenditure could not be further reduced without imperilling the safety of the country. We . are told that when the Prime Minister has heard the suggestions of the Imperial Conference the Government will evolve a defence policy. What the Government will do I do not know, but the Treasurer has, in the preparation of his Budget, gained credit for a reduction of expenditure, at the expense of defence. He has shown a saving of £175,681 in departmental expenditure. The whole amount is covered by reductions in two Departments, namely, Defence £72,964, and Home and Territories £112,927, making a total of £185,891. The reduction in the Home and Territories Department is easily explained. Last year a general election was held at a cost of £95,000. It was a frightful mistake to spend so much money in doing so little ! However, that was not the honorable gentleman's fault; but, as he does not intend that there shall be another election this year, he takes credit for saving £95,000 ! Last year the Customs Department had £43,000 of non-recurring and special expenditure, so that it is clear that in the aggregate the Treasurer has not reduced the departmental expenditure, but has actually increased it. Where reductions are shown, they are in respect of Defence, Sinking Fund, and Repatriation. As to Defence, the reduction is absolutely indefensible. I do not say here that he should not have reduced his expenditure under these heads. I am merely showing that any reduction he has made is at the expense of Defence: the reduction of the public debt and repatriation. He proposes to save £350, 000* in the Treasury, but the saving is still '.' in the air." So far not one officer has been discharged, and I think we may take it for granted that the honorable gentleman will hardly muster sufficient courage to dismiss a sufficient number of men to enable a saving of £350,000 to be effected in one year. He has! told the Committee what he intendsto do, but he has not done it yet. Therefore, the only savings to date are in respect of Defence, Sinking Fund, and Repatriation, and those are not the items ' upon which,, in the opinion, of the vase majority of people, expenditure should be reduced. There should have been a greater contribution to the Sinking Fund, For the honorable gentleman was never tired of telling us- that it was absolutely necessary to reduce the public debt. But he has not reduced the debt; he has increased it. Repatriation expenditure has been curtailed, but that, I admit, must be a gradually diminishing liability. In the aggregate he has not reduced departmental expenditure. The Treasurer's Budget speech is just the sort of pronouncement that one hears before an election. I have never heard a Budget speech" like it before. It omitted nothing that I can think of. The honorable gentleman took credit for every good thing done by others at any time. Preceding Governments had done nothing ; he had done everything. For instance, he said that taxation, had been reduced by £4,930,000, and people who know no better may give the honorable gentleman credit for doing this. But what are the facts- 2 Of that amount of taxation remitted, £4,930,000, the Treasurer is entitled to credit for only £1,080,000. The greater part, £3,850,000, was remitted by the previous Government. The Sinking Fund was not originated by the Treasurer, and he was not responsible for the reduction of taxation. The contributions to the Sinking Fund by his. predecessors were greater than those which he made. He has paid less into the Sinking Fund than did his immediate predecessor, and much less than the previous Treasurer, **Sir Joseph** Cook. He has not reduced departmental expenditure except in respect of Defence, Repatriation, and Sinking Fund.. The honorable gentleman spoke also of the Postal Department and the wonderful things which the present Government are doing for the man on the land. When the member for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse)** was speaking yesterday, I said that in my opinion the people in the thinly settled districts should be charged less per head for the benefits of civilization than the people in the more populous areas. I said that this was the only way we could level up the lot of the men in remote places to that of the men in settled areas. I am entirely in accord with a policy that will help the man on the land. The Treasurer, dilating upon the extension of postal and telephonic facilities, spoke as though he was responsible for what has been done. But what are the facts. The extension of telephonic, telegraphic, and postal facilities in the country was the policy of the previous Administration. They inaugurated the new *regime;* they made the necessary financial arrangements, they provided the £9,000,000 which is to. be set apart for this most necessary work. That more money is available this year to enable extended facilities to be given to the country should be placed to the credit of his predecessor. But let me ' draw attention to the ' way in which the Treasurer is assisting the man on the land. The honorable gentleman has great influence with this Government. Any man who could be permitted to bring down a Budget like this must have great influence. Let us look at the way in which the men on the land are being helped in New South Wales and Victoria. In the other States their position is even worse. The total amount to be spent out of loan moneys next year in those two States for new postal works is £507,179. Of that sum £233,275 is to be spent in the metropolitan area in New South Wales, ana £69,616 in the country districts. In Victoria £140,104 is to be spent in the city, and £64,184 in the country. In some of the other States the proportion is worse. It is hard to believe that a Government which professes to represent the country could evolve a policy of this kind. It is certainly greasing the fat pig. It gives the cities an overwhelming preponderance of the good things to be distributed. I could say a great deal more, but I have done what I set out to do. I have **Mr.** *W. M.* Hughe*. shown that this Budget does not do what we were entitled to expect. This Budget is not what we should have, if we propose to maintain parliamentary control of public finance. The Budget does not set out the financial position clearly and ac- "curately. After perusing it nobody is better equipped to discuss those weighty matters which the honorable gentleman himself told us were of the utmost importance, and at the foundation of civil government. The honorable gentleman said of the previous Budget - There has been a skilful juggling of expenditure from one Department to another in order to defy the pursuit of what actually occurred. Are the evidences of dummying I have given mere slips or are they deliberately intended to mislead the public ? Why is the revenue of the Post Office taken from that Department and allotted to other governmental activities, and in its place loan moneys voted to the Post Office for carrying out its work? Why is the £162,000 for assisted passages to immigrants paid out of loans instead of revenue. The Treasurer has himself followed the practice. He asked - How can taxation ever be reduced if our indebtedness and interest bill is increased in every Budget? In ali these things the honorable gentleman stands condemned out of his own mouth. He has been guilty of doing those things he condemned in others. In view of the honorable gentleman's previous criticisms, we had a right to expect that he would do all that was necessary to give us an honest presentation of accounts. Instead of that, he has charged expenditure to this year which could not properly be charged to this year. He has had ample opportunity to improve matters since he made the charges to which I have referred. His most severe critic is himself. He said, last year, that he had - Indicated many places where gross extravagance and unexplained increases in administration have taken place, and a possibility of large reductions. This has been possible without any knowledge 'of departmental workings. It is not my duty, but the duty of the executive Government, to say where the mo3t ready economy could be effected, >and which services could bear the brunt of that economy. That is a matter where inside departmental knowledge would alone avail. In effect he said, "If I could only get inside I would see that we got something like the ideal conditions we are now seeking 'but cannot find." The honorable gentleman in his Budget speech this year said - As to the increases in the Departments of Customs and Postmaster-General, it should be pointed out that there has been a great expansion of revenue, entailing increase of expenditure for administration and collection. In 1018-19, the Navigation Act, administered by the Customs Department, had not been brought into operation. The increase in the Defence Department is due wholly to the fact that in' 1918-19 the Fleet was on war commission and military *personnel* was largely engaged abroad with the Australian Imperial Force, the cost of these war services being charged to war loan. . Now, of course, the cost is charged to revenue. Invalid and old-age pensions have increased because the fortnightly rate is greater and the number of pensioners is growing larger year by year. Interest and sinking fund require more money now, because it has been the policy of the Commonwealth to provide for capital expenditure out of loan moneys. The taxation office up to the present has been an expanding service, hence the greater cost. Increases in prices since 1918-19, with the consequent living allowances to public servants, have caused large additions to the expenditure of all Departments. The reasons for the other increases are obvious. The Treasurer posed as a champion of economy, and told us that he would clean out this Augean stable. Now he says, "I have not done anything; I am unable to do it." Previously he said, "We must have an amendment of the Federal Constitution; we must have, a Federal Convention."- Now the one thing that concerns him is that Parliament shall go into recess. He says, " Recess is more precious than reform." -He said, " What wo want is a reduction of our national debt." He has increased it. He said, f ' What we want is a thorough overhauling of departmental expenditure." Now that he is in office he says, " I see that this cannot be done." Last year he said, "What we want is a plain, honest statement of accounts." Now he says, " I see very clearly that if I were to give such a statement I should show a deficit, and, as I must not show a deficit, candour and honesty must be thrown to one side so that I can give you the Budget that is on the table." That is the way the honorable gentleman sees his duty to-day. As to the policy of the Government, I shall say nothing. Probably we shall have an opportunity to discuss questions of policy as they arise later. What the Government financial and taxation proposals really are I do not know. " Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." My condemnation of this Budget is not on what it does do, or what it does not do; but. on the way in which it hides what it proposes to do, and creates an impression that it does what it does not do, and that it does not do what it does do. {: #subdebate-24-0-s3 .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke .- It is quite bad enough for Opposition members to assail the Government, but it gives us intense pain that the National party should be stabbed in the back by one of its own members in the manner in which the right honorable member for North Sydney has just stabbed it. I am reminded of the remark of Byron, after he had been taken out of the Bosphorus. He was asked, "Have you no friends?" " Yes," he said, " but, thank God, I have lost them." I think that is the, position of the Government at this juncture. Ib has lost one of its friends, and I think it should be thankful. It was reasonable to expect that the right honorable member for North Sydney would endeavour to get back some of his own. He gibes at the honorable the Treasurer for his inconsistency. He says that the 'Treasurer was an advocate of the New States movement, and then he condemns him because he has taken the steps that he has taken. What steps has the Treasurer taken ? He has taken ten steps. He has stepped from the cross-benches to the Treasury bench ! Why should he adhere to a merely academic thing like the New States movement when the safety of the country demands that he shall occupy the position of Treasurer? Why should the right honorable member for North Sydney criticise the Treasurer for inconsistency? He has never been Treasurer. He criticises the Treasurer because of the way in which he has produced his surplus. It is easy to calculate in such a way that a surplus may be shown. He assails the Treasurer because he has charged to last year's accounts certain amounts which should have been charged to this year's accounts. The quintessence of ability is shown in a Treasurer when he brings out a surplus and not a deficit. It matters not how he achieves it, so long as he upholds his honour for the hour. The most important thing, also, from the point of view of the Government, is to show a surplus. It is a case of - >Lord, for to-morrow and its needs > >We do not pray; > >But guide us, guard us, keep us, > >Just for to-day. > >That is the motto of the Government. The Treasurer is not the only financier in the Government. There are others on the front benches. The other day one Minister took a journey to Western Australia in a special train, which will probably cost the country £1,000. Probably that train was necessary for him to properly observe the country. When he arrived at the Henderson Naval Base he found that too many men were being employed. He dismissed some of them, and so saved their wages. If. the money he thus saved more than accounted for the expense of his train, he would say that the credit for having saved the. difference belongedto him. I shall give another instance of this kind of finance. In the Northern Territory we had a nationally-owned steamer. Naturally it was held up to public derision. It was said that we lost £1,000 a year on it. The Government decided that there was no necessity for this publicly-owned vessel. It did not wish to have odium cast upon it because of this pieceof national Socialism. It sold the steamer. Then another vessel had to be found to replace it. A schooner about fifty years old was lying in Fremantle harbour. It had an old kerosene tin inside of it for a boiler, and it could get up a speed of a few miles an hour. A private company put this steamer into commission, and the Government arranged to pay it a subsidy of £5,000 a year. A condition of the agreement was that the vessel should do something like 17,000 miles of travelling a year. By doing only 8 miles an hour for twelve weeks she would fulfil the conditions of the contract, and she could lie' idle in the. Northern Territory waters for the remaining forty weeks ofthe year. This is how economy is achieved. This is financing. It is the kind of thing that this Government does. The right honorable member for North Sydney says that the Treasurer's actions are inconsistent with what he has said. But circumstances have changed. He was there he is here. His opinions then were necessary for his situation as. the Leader of the Country party. Now, of course, it is necessary for him to adapt himself to his present position. It is quite true that he was not the Treasurer when he criticised the gentleman who is now Prime Minister. It was the present Prime Minister who assassinated the then. Prime Minister, and stepped into his position; and as the present Treasurer was his assistant assassin, it is quite right that he should have some of the emoluments. Why commit a crime if there is no profit in it? The present Treasurer last year criticised the Budget which was presented by the present Prime Minister, who was then regarded by the honorable member for North Sydney as a gentleman of talent, business experience, and acuteness. However, the present Treasurer, as. I say, criticised the Budget presented last year, though now he would not criticise any action of the present Prime Minister. The Treasurer is now an earnest supporter of the right honorable gentleman, ready and willing to support everything that he proposes. Last year he criticised the Budget so persistently that at last the then Treasurer - now noted for his capacity to control himself, though not his supporters - broke loose, and said to the present Treasurer, "Your statements are all ' ifs ' and ' buts.' " On the present occasion we might also say that the Treasurer's statement consists of " ifs " and " buts." The honorable gentleman also criticised other Departments, and at last **Mr. Massy** Greene, who was then a member of the Ministry, said " Yes, I am listening to you ; I listened last week to your statements, and also read them, and in 31/2 inches of printed matter there were no less than seventeen lies." Now, we have compliments bandied about amongst the gentlemen opposite. ' Time brings its revenge. Yesterday it was my misfortune; to-day it is yours. The present Treasurer, criticising the Budget of his present chief, when the latter was Treasurer last year, said that he expected some evidence of the " rake's progress " being brought to an end. Thehonorable gentleman said that the presen t Prime Minister, as Treasurer, had beena disappointment. Of course, the Prime Minister is not a disappointment now, but a brilliant success, because he took thepresent Treasurer into his Ministry What was condemned in the Prime Minister as Treasurer, now becomes a virtue. Last year the present Treasurer said that. the then Treasurer, instead of stemming the stream of extravagance had been content to go with it. Last year in connexion with the Post Office the honorable gentleman declared it to be a scandal to use a public institution of the kind as an instrument of direct taxation. The Post Office, he said, should be conducted as a business concern, in a business-like way, under a directorate. But now, no directorate! The Treasurer holds opinions this year that he did not hold last year, and the reason is that the Prime Minister does not agree with him. If two opposites meet the effect must be negative, or one must give way. In this case we have one giving way on one point, and the other on another, so that they may hang together. The Treasurer has had to give way to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister went to a public meeting in his own district, I think, and said that the idea of the Post Office being treated as a private enterprise under a directorate could not be tolerated for a single moment. The Post Office, he said, was not only a publicly-owned instrumentality, but a public utility, and not only the revenue but borrowed money must be used for the extension of such utilities. That was one idea that the . present Treasurer put forward last year which he is not prepared to believe in at the present time. It was, I think, one of the fourteen points of the -Country party's programme. According to him, .the Commonwealth Bank should be placed under a Board, and there should also be an investigation into the Persian oil deals. Not now! There was to be a committee to inquire into the wireless transaction. Not now! There was to be a Royal Commission to inquire into the "War Service Homes Administration. Not now! .1 think the Minister for Works and Railways **(Mr. Stewart)** said there was to be a committee appointed, and that he Av-ould have the closest inquiry made. It will be remembered how, when that honorable gentleman sat in the 'corner, he regarded the conduct of War Service Homes as criminal. Now he sees nothing criminal about it. Then the repatriation scandals, were to be a subject of investigation ; today they are not touched. These are not the only matters that «all for comment. I draw the attention of the Treasurer **(Dr. Earle Page)** to the action . taken in connexion with the note, issue, and would also, like him . to show what is transpiring in connexion with loan moneys. It is quite true that our expenditure is not met merely out of revenue, but also out of the enormous millions that we raise year after year. Before the war the Commonwealth and States raised on an average £4,000,000 a year by loans. At present, throughout Australia, and ever since the war, the Commonwealth has been raising £50,000,000 a year. That is going on at the present moment, and the borrowing is increasing in both Federal and State spheres. We are not living within our income. In spite of what the Treasurer may say, the indebtedness of the country is steadily increasing, with an enormous and expanding interest bill. There has been some talk of economy, and last year the Government economized in a peculiar way. By a reduction of the sinking fund rate by something like per cent., the Government were enabled to put £500,000 less into the fund, and this they regarded as a saving. Everybody remembers that when the note-issue was first instituted, the arrangement was that if the banks wanted notes, they would have to deposit gold in the public Treasury. 'That went on until the outbreak of the war. **Sir Joseph** Cook was in power on 4th August, 1914, and opened negotiations with the banks and stock exchange brokers, which resulted in the formation of what is known as the Advisory Committee. That Committee of stock jobbers and brokers has been in existence ever since. In 1921, **Sir Joseph** Cook desired to perpetuate the Committee by an amendment of the Commonwealth Bank Act, but he was not allowed to do so, and he said that he would do it by regulation. This Committee has been in control, and it stands behind the Government to-day. One of the1 conditions laid down at the beginning of . the war was that if the banks fell short of cash they should get three £l-notes for £1 in gold. The States were to get £20,000,000, on the basis of £4 in notes to £1 in gold. The States have no gold, but had to get it from the banks, and the result was that £20,000,000 of notes printed in this city were handed direct to the banks. On the basis of £20,000;000. legal currency,' the banks commenced an inflation of their cheque currency to nearly £100,000,000. In this way they were enabled to help private individuals to contribute to Commonwealth and State loans. The hanks, on what they obtained at a small percentage, charged an immensely larger percentage to the public. At the latter end of 1916, even the supplies of the national currency were not sufficient for the financing of wheat, meat, and other things, and the banks made an arrangement with the Government to get £1,000,000 worth of notes on loan. The loan was to be for twelve months, with renewal at the option of the banks. Up to that time, all loans and deposits were renewable at the option of the depositor, and in this case the Government was the depositor. The ordinary policy was reversed, and the loan was renewable at the option of the banks, who were the borrowers. On the basis of £1,000,000 of notes at 5 per cent., the banks floated another £40,000,000 of cheque currency, and contributed to various loans, eventually becoming masters of between £50,000,000 and £60,000,000 of bonds. In 1917 the Government printing press was kept going night and day. During that year there was printed nearly £5,000,000 of notes, and these notes were handed over to private institutions at 3 per cent. basis, payable on the monthly balances. This £5,000,000 worth of notes was handed over without a pennyworth of security. Had these notes been printed for the purpose of providing War Service Homes, at a cheap rate of interest, it would have been regarded as a crime. On 14th December, 1920, the Note Issue Board was brought into existence. At that date the total issue of notes was £55,000,000, and about £30,000,000 was in the hands of the banks. But even this was not sufficient for the immense loans which were being issued, and on 20th December the Board issued to the banks, without security, £100,000,000 of notes. The next week, on 28th December, the banks were issued another £1,500,000. On 3rd January this was increased by another £1,000,000, and on 10th January by another, until the amount became, by the end of March, £59,500,000. For all this, as . I say, not a penny piece of security has been furnished by the banks. A few months afterwards **Sir Joseph** Cook stated in this Chamber that the Government was redeeming the note cur rency. The honorable member for North Sydney referred to some omissions from the statement of accounts, but there are others. I am taking only a cursory view of the matter to-day. I shall have more to say about it later. We asked the Auditor-General what public documents supplied this information, and whether they could be seen, and **Mr. Israel** made the announcement that it could not appear in public documents, for the simple reason that it was merely a loan issued through the Commonwealth Treasurer and by the Note Issue Board to the banking institutions of this country. Under whose advice is this done? It is under the advice of the stock jobbers and banking men who really operate the Treasury and the finances of this country, and are the real power behind the throne. When we look round for public documents showing what has been done, all we can ascertain is that the national printing press is kept going, not in the interests of the nation, but in order to give the banking institutions of this country a more extended clutch upon industry and the toiling masses of Australians, making it harder for them to liquidate their obligations. **Mr. Israel** pointed out what is done. The notes are printed and are - handed over to the banks, and there is not and there never was one penny of security provided by the banks to whom the notes are issued. {: .speaker-L0L} ##### Mr Whitsitt: -- Does not the Govern ment get gold for these notes? {: .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY: -- The Government gets nothing. It has never received one penny for them. When we asked what the banks do with the notes when the loans are issued, we find that they are simply handed back. That is the sort of thing that is going on to-day. The new loan that is now being floated will be floated only on that basis. The right honorable member for North Sydney said that, in the early part of the war, the note issue was the basis upon which the credit of Australia was established. That is true to-day. I say that this kind of thing has to be guarded against. At this time, when we are floating new loans, if the banks have not within themselves the means with which to finance the loans, it is not for the Government, or the Treasurer, to furnish them with notes in order to meet their obligations. That is a critic- ism which can be levelled against the present Government and their methods of finance. That is what happens when there is no war as an excuse to justify what is done. What is being done today is that the national printing press is being used, not in order to print notes which might be used for national purposes or issued by the Commonwealth Bank for the building of soldiers' homes at a low rate to avoid -the imposition of a heavy interest rate, but practically as a medium to assist private institutions in carrying on operations from which they gain profits. Every one knows that when the Labour Government introduced the measure to establish ( the Commonwealth note issue the representatives of the bankers then sitting on this, side, and speaking for them, contended that it would be absolutely dangerous, if the Treasurer did not keep a reserve in gold of at least one-thud of the value of the notes issued. It was advanced day after day by public men, and by the press, that we could not, with safety, permit the gold reserve to go below 33 per cent, of the value of the notes in circulation. The banks and their newspapers pointed out that every advance which they made was backed up by a gold reserve of at least 33 per cent. They pointed out that, their advances to the public were over £120,000,000, and their reserves in notes and gold were about £40,000,000, or about 33 per cent, of their total advances. They have been returning notes to the Treasury to be burnt after they are done with them. At the present moment the currency they have in gold or notes in their vaults amounts to about £52,000,000, or to about £11,000,000 more than in 1914. That is their basis of credit, and upon that £11,000,000 of additional legal currency they have issued loans to the Commonwealth, the States, and the general public up to £150,000,000, and the basis of 33 per cent, reserve which they had in 1914 has dropped to about 20 per cent. The amount of the reserves of the private banks of this country is about onefifth of the total advances made to the Commonwealth, States, and general public. If we were for any public purpose, such as the building of soldiers' homes, the Northern Territory railway, or any public work, to issue notes upon a basis of five to £1 we had in gold in the Treasury, every banking institution and every banking newspaper in Australia would regard it as criminally reckless, yet the private banking institutions are Jo- day operating a fictitious currency of that . kind. These things should be made public. We should ask by whose will or direction, under what impulse, law, or ' regulation, the Treasurer and the Note Issue Board are permitted to issue millions in notes to the private banks without Parliament or the public knowing anything about it, and without a single pennyworth of security. That is information which should be given to the public, and there I leave the matter for the present. {: #subdebate-24-0-s4 .speaker-K99} ##### Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON:
Lang . * - It is not my intention to traverse the many speeches which have been made during this debate. I wish to make some observations upon a matter which I have been intensely disappointed to find does not occupy a place in the Budget. I refer to Australia's relation to and interest in the New Hebrides. . I am sorry to say that this important matter has been neglected not only by the present but by previous Commonwealth Governments. I raised the question as far back as 1906, and pointed out in this Chamber that the administration of the New Hebrides group of islands was a matter of vital concern to Australia from a defence as well as a commercial point of view. I directed attention to the strategic value of the islands as naval bases, and the menace they would prove to Australia should they pass under the control of any nation other than Great Britain, and I referred to the commercial advantages which might be gained by trade with the New Hebrides. On the 19th July, 1906, I moved the following motion: - >That with a view to promote and encourage settlement by people of o>?r own race in the Southern Pacific Islands - particularly in the New Hebrides group - it is desirable to allow a rebate of duty on all produce grown by British and Australian settlers in those islands $ coming into the Commonwealth. In order to indicate the purpose I had in view in submitting that motion, I may inform honorable members that these islands are situated some 1,400 miles from the eastern seaboard of Australia. They cover an area of about 400 square miles, or something like 2,500,000 acres. Speaking from memory, I think that in 1914 they carried a population of 65,000 people. It may' be within the recollection of honorable members that a little before Federation there had been a considerable controversy concerning the administration and control of these islands, and representations were made from Australia to the British Government as to the importance of the islands to Australia and the advisability of steps being taken to secure their control by Great Britain. Unfortunately, as the result of laxity in the matter, things were allowed to drift, and before 1888 the French, seizing an opportunity which they considered favorable, sent two warships to the New Hebrides and landed a military force with the intention, it is presumed, of annexing this group of islands. Fortunately the Australian people were alive to the danger of the situation, and as a result of their protests Great Britain represented the situation to France, and the French troops were withdrawn. I may mention that the islands were first settled about 1S70, and the settlement progressed very slowly up to 1907. In 1888 a convention was entered into between Great Britain and France under which the islands were placed under a Joint Commission of British and French naval officers. The Commission had no administrative power, and its duty appeared to be really to watch over the interests of British and French settlers and protect their lives, and property, and also checkmate moves by either nation in the direction of annexation. In 1906 a formal agreement was entered' into and signed in London, proclaiming a Joint Protectorate by Great Britain and France. This Condominium, as it was called, was agreed to in "London in February, 1906, ratified in October of the same year, and came into operation on the 2nd December, 1907. Affairs in the New Hebrides have not been any better as a result of the Condominium. On the contrary, they have, from the British point of view, at least, steadily gone from bad to worse. There has grown up a certain French ascendancy, owing to the. nursing of her settlers by France, whilst British settlers have been discouraged in every possible way. I am sorry to' say that, although I directed special attention to this in 1906, nothing effective has. been done to improve the position so far as we are concerned. Perhaps it will conserve time if I quote the following from the remarks I made on 'the motion I submitted in 1906- >It is unfortunate, however, that while these (mail and shipping) facilities have been placed at the disposal of the settlers - whilst we have given them an .improved means of communication by increasing the mail subsidy- we have, on the other hand,, raised a Tariff wall which prevents the introduction of their products into Australia. Increased mail services can avail them nothing so long as their products are shut out of our markets. In consequence of our action, a number of the settlers in the islands have been reduced, in some instances to absolute penury, and in nearly all cases to a condition bordering more or less on destitution. They have made several appeals to the Commonwealth Government to assist them, not by monetary grants, but by treating them as fellow Australians - as citizens of the Commonwealth endeavouring to help in the work pf building up the Empire in these seas. There is no doubt that even under the most favorable circumstances, courage and hope, as well as skill, are needed by those who leave these shores to live under the conditions obtaining in the islands, and to do the work of pioneering there. But when, after encouraging our people to settle in the group, we deliberately set up obstacles in the way of their progress, and . close the only profitable market open to them, we are guilty of something worse than folly. The effect of this action on our part is likely to be very serious. We may not feel it immediately, but there is' not the slightest doubt that unless we take steps to remedy the evils we have created, by our failure to afford reasonable encouragement to those settlers, we shall realize later on, in a very unpleasant way, .perhaps, the blunder we have committed. In the meantime nothing very much has been done. An arrangement was entered into by the Deakin Government with Burns, Philp and Company to take up areas of land in the group with a view to encouraging Australian settlement in the New Hebrides, with the ultimate object ' of making it a part of the British Empire. I have no complaint against Burns, Philp and Company. They reduced the fares, and made special concessions to intending settlers, and a number of Australians were induced to go there to raise copra. As the coconut trees, from which copra is obtained, take from seven to ten years to mature, it was necessary that the settlers should engage in some other occupation to sustain themselves during that time, and to prevent the loss of their capital. They did this only to find that they had no market for their products. They grew other products, chiefly coffee, maize, and arrowroot. Australia was their natural market, but, unfortunately, it was closed " to them by the high Tariff which had been imposed on their products. They found themselves treated, not as Australian citizens, but as foreigners and aliens. As a result many .of the settlers failed, and were reduced to absolute destitution. A considerable number -left the islands. Comparing their treatment with that of the French settlers, it was decidedly to their and our disadvantage. While it is true that the French authorities taxed products, they returned the tax to their settlers by way of local administrative purposes in improving roads, wharfage, &c. In every way ' they assisted the French settlers. Thus handicapped, the Australian residents were seriously up against, things. At this juncture the French Government offered to the Australian settlers similar concessions to those enjoyed by the French if they would accept the .nationality of France. To the credit^ of their loyalty, the Australian settlers refused these overtures, but many of them returned to Australia sadder and wiser men. , From a commercial stand-point the present policy of the Australian Government concerning the New Hebrides is a disastrous one. The only way to establish a legitimate claim for sole control by the British Empire would be by effective occupation, anil by a preponderance of British settlers and British trading interests. Unfortunately, our settlers are dwindling, and the French settlers are increasing. At present the French population is more than double that of the British. This raises a formidable barrier to any arrangement between Great Britain and Australia for the intervention of the Imperial Government, and for the substitution of British control for the Condominium. This Government cannot be saddled with the blame. They have been too short a time in office, but they have a heavy and urgent responsibility to face concerning the position. The present state of neglect is the fault of each succeeding Government since the first Australian settled in the New Hebrides. The commercial value of these islands to the Commonwealth and Great Britain is immense, because any future trade from the Panama Canal to Australia must pass in the vicinity of them. Regard must also be paid to the strategic position of the islands for defence purposes. They possess three or four fine harbors, Vila and Havana Harbors in Efat or Sandwich Island, Segond Channel on the south-eastern side of Santo, and Port Sandwich in Malekula. Havana Harbor is large, and capable of sheltering at one- time the whole of the British Fleet. It has a safe entrance, an approach in all weathers, and is practically land-locked. As a naval base it would have no rival, at- any rate, in the Pacific Ocean between Australia and the western coast of America. Unfortunately, these advantages are likely to be lost to Great Britain and to the Commonwealth. These islands are very much desired by another Power with which we are at present on friendly terms, but which must be regarded as a possible enemy in the future. I mention this as a possibility, and not as a probability, haying in mind the instability of national alliances and friendships; we have to consider these contingencies. As a naval base *in* the hands of a foreign power, with which we might be subsequently embroiled, it would gravely imperil outposition. Although these islands are 1,400 miles from the eastern seaboard of Australia, the trading steamer taking some eight or ten days to do the journey, a fast war vessel could do it in a third of that time, or even less. From a strategic point of view, this is a matter of extreme gravity to Australia. The British settlers in the New Hebrides, who are principally Australians, suffer a grave disability, because, while they are made to obey the laws, and rightly so, breaches of the law by the French settlers are treated by their Government with a degree of tolerance and laxity which places our people at a great disadvantage. The judicial system in the Islands is as unique as it is complex. To explain this position it will be necessary to show the number and arrangement of the officials. The French Administrative officers are the Resident Commissioner, the Assistant Resident Commissioner, the Second Assistant Resident Commissioner, and two clerks. The British Administration consists of . the Resident Commissioner, the Assistant Resident Commissioner, two Labour Inspectors, one of whom acts as Registrar of the British National Court. In addition, there are the judiciary and staff of the Courts. The British Court administers the law from the British standpoint, and the French Court administers it from a French stand-point. But where both interests are involved, there is a Joint Court, which is called the Condominium Court, the officials of which are the President of the Court, who is a Spaniard, speaking, I was informed, not a word of English; a British Judge; and a French Judge; the Public Prosecutor, whois a Spaniard, the Native Advocate, and the Registrar of the Joint Court, who are both Dutch; four clerks of the Court, clerk of works, two commandants of constabulary, three Condominium agents, and the bailiff of the Joint Court. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- What is the duty of the commandant? {: .speaker-K99} ##### Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON: -- The native police, under the British commandant, act under control of the British authority. The native police under the French commandant are controlled by the French Administration. There is also an interpreter and a postmaster. That concludes the list of officials. The honorable member for Herbert **(Mr. Bamford)** and I, as members of the Royal Commission, which was appointed to inquire into the mail service of the New Hebrides, and adjacent groups of islands, visited all the islands of the group, calling and taking evidence at eighty-three trading centres scattered over the various islands comprising the group, and also at one of the Banks Group of Islands. We were informed that while the greatest' strictures were exercised by the British Government in carrying out the law, the greatest laxity was. shown by the French judicial authorities, who, even if they thought fit to convict. French settlers of offences, seldom enforced the penalties which were imposed. It was stated that one French settler had been fined twenty times, and had not been called on to pay once. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- I call attention to the state of the House. *The bells having been rung,* {: #subdebate-24-0-s5 .speaker-JOG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Bayley:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND -- A quorum not being present I shall report to the Speaker. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- The bells were not ringing in some parts of the building. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- I was in the Chairman's room, and they were not ringing there. *In the House:* {: #subdebate-24-0-s6 .speaker-10000} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: -- As Temporary Chairman my attention was called to the state of the Committee. The bells were ordered to be rung, but failed to produce a quorum. After the bells had ceased ringing several members reported to me that they had not rung in some portions of the building. {: #subdebate-24-0-s7 .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr SPEAKER (Rt Hon W A Watt: -- The bells will be rung again, and officers will ascertain whether all are in order. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I have to report thatthe honorable member for Hindmarsh **(Mr. Makin)** was present when I counted the Committee, and without my permission, left the Chamber. {: #subdebate-24-0-s8 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I instruct the Serjeant-at-Arms to request the honorable member to attend in the Chamber. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- On a point of order. The bells had ceased ringing, and the Temporary Chairman had declared that there was not a quorum present, before the honorable member for Hindmarsh left the Chamber, Was not the honorable member entitled to leave the Chamber before the bells were rung a second time? *[Quorum farmed.]* {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- In regard to the point of order raised by the honorable member for Melbourne, I call the attention of the House to standing order 33 - >If any member shall take notice, or if the Chairmam of Committees, on notice being taken by any member, shall report to the Speaker that a quorum of members is not present, the Speaker, standing up in his place, shall count the House; and, if a quorum be not present within two minutes, he shall adjourn the House till the next sitting day. It was reported to me by the Chairman of Committees that the honorable member for Hindmarsh was present when the Committee was counted, and left the Chamber without permission. Therefore I asked the Serjeant-at-Arms to acquaint the honorable member that his presence was required in the Chamber. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- I rise to make a personal explanation. If I transgressed I did so unconsciously. When the bells had ceased ringing and the Temporary Chairman had said that he would report to the Speaker the absence of a quorum, I thought I was at liberty to leave the Chamber. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- No doubt the honorable member erred unwittingly. Standing order 34 provides - >When the attention of the Speaker, or of the Chairman of Committees, has been called to the fact that there is not a quorum of mem- bers present, no member shall leave the Chamber until the House has been counted by the Speaker. It is perfectly clear that it is the duty of every honorable member to remain in the Chamber until the House has been counted by the Speaker. I am quite sure that the honorable member, who is a temporary Chairman of Committees, did not consciously offend against the standing order. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.* *In Committee of Supply:* {: #subdebate-24-0-s9 .speaker-K99} ##### Sir ELLIOT JOHNSON: -- The British settlers thus suffer considerably in consequence of the laxity in the administration of the French laws in the Condominium. Certain settlers, knowing that they can disregard the law with impunity, take advantage of their knowledge todo many things which should not be allowed. One of the laws of the Condominium prohibits trading in intoxicants and rifles. The natives, well knowing that the British authorities compel rigid observance of this law, go to the French traders, with whom they can deal with impunity. This trade is diverted from British to French channels. This seriously affects the progress of British settlement in the New Hebrides. It should be given close attention by the Commonwealth Government. This Government alone cannot deal with the situation, but the position is serious enough to merit attention from the Imperial Government. I discussed the subject in 1906, and pointed out the dangers that were ahead of us. The predictions I then made have been more than verified by results. Things have gone from bad to worse. The Presbyterian missionaries in the New Hebrides have frequently called attention to the flagrant abuses which occur in the islands, and they have urged the Commonwealth Government to take all possible, steps to correct them. As a result of investigations while acting as a Royal Commission, in addition to our published report on the mail services, the honorable member for Herbert and I made a confidential report to the Government of the day. I am. not at liberty to disclose the contents of that document, but I will say that the position outlined therein is sufficiently serious to justify the Prime Minister **(Mr. Bruce)** bringing it before the Imperial Confer ence. If that is done the British Government may determine to consult with the French Government to see what remedies may be applied. I do not conceal from myself the fact that the question iri a* very delicate and difficult one and requires very judicious and tactful handling, but that is no reason why the matter should be shirked. The representatives of the Presbyterian Church have established mission stations in the New Hebrides and are doing valuable service there. In a statement in the *Argus* of 6th August, the Rev. K. J. H. McGowan, of the Foreign Mission Committee of the Presbyterian Church, says - . It is reported that grog is being used in recruiting, perhaps more than ever before. Yet, oven with the grog, and with decoy women, and, sometimes, straight-out force, recruits are becoming more and more difficult to obtain. ~ Therefore, the temptation to commit irregularities to get them is enormous. It is Said that as labour is becoming so scarce and difficult to obtain, a French firm is bringing in, during the next few months, 800 Tonquinese. There will be 300 in ihe first batch, and 500 later. - This is said to entail an initial outlay of about £15,000. These Tonquinese are to be recruited for five years. However, their coming will not . solve the labour* problem, for the French will still be eager to employ all labour available, and irregularities will continue. It is supposed that the Tonquin labourers are French citizens ; so this phase of the problem may work for France and be against Britain. So long as the lax administration of theFrench authorities, complained of by British settlers and the Presbyterian missionaries, continues, it is unreasonable to hope for successful British colonization in the New Hebrides. Such an idea must be set aside. In view of the strategic importance of these islands, to say nothing of their commercial value, something should be done by the Commonwealth Government to effectively and steadily promote British settlement there. One thing we can do is to give a rebate of all duties on the products of British settlers in the islands. This would place the Britishers in a less unfavorable position as planters, and would assist in the development of trade. As long as the Condominium control continues, however, it will be impossible to secure a thoroughly satisfactory state of affairs. I trust, therefore, that the Prime Minister will take, steps while he. is in England to see that the true condition of things is brought under the notice of the British Government. The Commonwealth Government alone is not able to do very much to improve matters, except in the direction I have indicated. It has been suggested that our Government should buy out the French New Hebrides Company. I am afraid that arrangement cannot be made, because that company holds a charter from the French Government. Any arrangement in that direction would have to be made between the French and British Governments. The Prime Minister has information in his hands which reveals the gravity of the situation. Possibly an agreement could be made for Great Britain to assume complete control in the New Hebrides, and France could be compensated by ceding her some territory where she has more important interests than she has, or is ever likely to have, in the New Hebrides. If the matter is approached in the right spirit an agreement, acceptable to both France and Britain, should be possible. If the Commonwealth Government could accomplish something of this kind, it would be of immense benefit to Australia. The strategic value of the three magnificent harbors in the New Hebrides should not be overlooked. We have Seen talking a good deal about the naval base at Singapore, and how important that point of vantage would be to Australia, We have neglected altogether the other side of the Pacific. Australia would be exposed to serious dangers if those islands should come into the complete possession of an unfriendly foreign power. I commend this matter to the serious consideration of the Government. I urge the Prime Minister to take advantage of the opportunity provided by his visit to Great Britain to bring it directly under the notice of the British Government with a view to action being taken to remedy the presentmostunsatisfactory state of affairs. {: #subdebate-24-0-s10 .speaker-JT7} ##### Mr McNEILL:
Wannon .- The House is entitled to more information on several items which appear in the Budget. We are told that on 30th June this year an amount of £188,992 was outstanding in land tax and fines. I wish to know whether that sum has been long outstanding or whether a portion, or the whole of it, has been paid since 30th J une. If a poor man fails to furnish an income tax return by the due date, or is behind time with his payments, he is quickly brought to book and made to pay. It goes without saying, therefore, that that amount of £188,992 is not owing by the poorer classes of our community. If it, is owing by the wealthy classes they should be compelled to pay as soon as possible. I notice that £135,000 less is to be paid in war pensions this year than was paid last year. There may be some sound reason for that, but the Budget contains no information on the point. We do know that for some considerable time before this Government took office, and even since, there have been serious complaints regarding cheeseparing in connexion with war pensions. This country is rightly committed to the payment of pensions, and if the pruniug-knife has been applied to pensions for war widows or disabled soldiers there is an undeniable rightto have this great wrong remedied. We cannot permit those who have been maimed, or have otherwise suffered in the war, to be denied their undoubted rights; certainly, we cannot permit war widows to suffer. When provision is made in the Budget for a reduction of expenditure in this direction, we are entitled to know the reason. Now I come to the question of immigration. On salaries and administrative and other expenses, and on Australian organization in London, the expenditure amounts to £70,000, and we are not get- ing a, fair return for the money, so far, at any rate, as Australia House is concerned. There are amongst the officials in Australia House some who are unfitted for their positions. They do not even understand the geography of Australia. I heard a man say, on one occasion, that when he went to Australia House to ask where Melbourne was, the clerk told him that, as far as he could recollect, it was in Tasmania. The Budget provides £5,000,000 for expenditure on the promotion of immigration. My own opinion is that the bulk of the immigrants have been brought here by a "delusion and a snare." When the late Lord Northcliffe was here about twelve months ago, ostensibly on a mission in connexion with immigration, he said that in all his travels, and he had been through America, he had never seen a country where land monopoly was more rampant than in Australia. Lord Northcliffe was quite right. There is no other country on the face of- the earth where land monopoly has such a- hold. In Victoria, which I know well, the State * Government cannot provide a block of 320 acres of agricultural Crown land other than, perhaps, in the uncleared Mallee country. It is true that there is plenty of Crown land in eastern Gippsland, but it is not the sort on which we could expect immigrants," or even Australians, to settle or succeed. There are thousands of experienced men in this State, but none of them could make a living on 320 acres of the Crown land offered in Gippsland. When we are told that there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of acres awaiting the human hand to till, we are told what is not true in fact. It is true that some of the closer settlement blocks purchased under the repatriation scheme are successfully occupied, but others are not, and never will be. The reason is that in quite a number of cases *the* mistake has been made of subdividing t]fe land into blocks that,-, are too small. It is altogether WrOng when a department or a Government apply a cheeseparing policy in such a way as to provide blocks too small to permit of a decent living being made on them. It is true that in a few instances the closer settlement scheme has been carried out very well. For instance, the Melville Estate in the Western District, purchased, I believe, from the Falkiner family for soldier settlement, is adequately managed. In that case, however, the land was cheap, and there is thorough organization i<n the administration. The settlers live at the homestead, with their own cook and their own mess, and . there is an experienced manager to look after the property, and teach them the science of sheep-breeding and wool-raising generally. Every day they assist in the clearing of their own land, and, to some extent, in cultivation. There is no doubt that in such circumstances these men will make a success ; and what I have said of the Melville Estate applies to other places in the lower Western District. These are instances in which 'the Government or the Department has shown some common sense. In many cases the settlers are inexperienced, knowing nothing of cultivation or the raising of stock, and yet they are left to their own re sources. If they escape financial disaster it will be by a miracle. The day is not far distant when this whole scheme will have to be reviewed. In many cases there will have to be a revaluation of properties, but it would be a thousand times better for the Government to admit its mistake, and have a revaluation made, than to court failure. The Government ought to admit that the conditions are too harsh, in view of the price of land' and the rate of interest, and should promise their revision. If these settlers are driven away, they will be thrown on the labour market, and others will "be put in their places with a like fate in front of them. These are all matters which must be taken into consideration by both the. Commonwealth and State Governments. When we induce young men to come from the Old World, telling .them at Australia House, and by placards throughout the. British Isles, that there are thousands and millions of acres here awaiting them, we are misleading them in the most unfair way. During recent months I have met young settlers who are absolutely disappointed; and we may rest assured that when they return to the Old Land, as they will, they will not have a good word for this country and the treatment they received in it at the hands of the Government. Land settlement is quite above party politics, because it has an interest for every man, woman, and child of the community. There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of young men in Australia to-day, who do not own a speck of land, and who cannot get land to cultivate, or even, in many cases, to build a house on. We must as quickly as possible throw open the lands of this- country to the young men of this country, and also to immigrants. The other day a Lands Ordinance for the Northern Territory was laid before the House, and I suppose it will be discussed before this session closes. From that Ordinance I gather that in the Northern Territory companies hold .as much as 11,000 and 12,000 square miles of country. The Commonwealth is committed to the construction of a railway through the Territory at a cost of millions; and for what purpose? For closer settlement? No; to suit the convenience of a few gentlemen who compose the big land companies, and hundreds of thousands, or millions, of acres of the finest country in the world may be locked up for a lifetime. The people of Australia are committed to build that railway and maintain it for the convenience of a few people, and it will Hot -assist in the settlement . of that at present sparsely-populated portion of the Commonwealth. If our immigration schemes are to succeed, the promises we make to the men and women of other nations to induce them 'to come to Australia must be faithfully carried out. If they are not, we shall be doing a grievous injustice to the people whom we induce to come here, and also to our Australian-born men who are seeking land to-day. We are told that all we require in Australia is increased population, and that if w© bring millions of people to this country they will enable us to reduce our national debt. That may appear at first sight to be true, but in reality we cannot expect' such a result, because, to-day, we have the sorry spectacle of thousands of men and women seeking employment and unable to secure it. That is a state of affairs which should not be permitted to continue in Australia. No country can afford to have its young manhood, representing the greatest wealth of the nation, in idleness. I venture to say that 99 per cent of the men who are idle to-day are not idle through their own choice, but because the Government of the day will not provide employment for them. Is there any reason why employment cannot be found for them ? There are many great undertakings which might be proceeded with in this country that would absorb all the unemployed we have. The Commonwealth Government should set an example to the State Governments in this' matter by undertaking a comprehensive policy of developmental works. I suppose it is proper that the Prime Minister should attend the Imperial Conference, but I do not think it is fair that he should ask that Parliament should be closed until he returns from the Old Country. He has reliable men in his party who, surely, could carry on the government of the country. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- There is one of them sitting at the table. {: .speaker-JT7} ##### Mr McNEILL: -- I suppose that the Treasurer, to whom the honorable member for Batman **(Mr. Brennan)** refers, is as honest as any other man in his party, and would be prepared to carry on the work of Parliament. No doubt the Prime Minister will have important work to perform in the Old Country. I was' pleased, to hear him say, the other night, that when he goes across the water he will take advantage of every opportunity offered to advocate. disarmament, and the peace of the world. 1 hope he will fulfil .> the promise he has made to this House in that particular matter. At this time it is necessary that some one in the Old World should sound the Australian note and give expression to the Australian sentiment. When the Prime Minister speaks on this matter I hope he will not forget to tell the big men of other nations that Australia is in favour of disarmament and is in favour, of peace. I feel sure that Australia is capable of giving a lead in this way. The honorable member for Kooyong **(Mr. Latham),** speaking the other night, referred in laudatory terms to the League of Nations. He said rightly that we cannot expect very much from the League of Nations, constituted as it is at present. If it is to be of any value to the world in the promotion of universal peace it can only be when every nation in the world is permitted to join it. We ? cannot have a League of Nations to abolish war and bring about international disarmament unless every nation in the world is invited to take its share of the work to be performed by the League. I hope the Prime Minister will emphasize this point at the Imperial Conference. He should say that he brings the message from the people of Australia that they ' believe that the peace of the world can be brought about through the League of Nations, but that first of all every nation, including Germany and Russia, must be invited to join the League. It is remarkable that no institution of its kind should have been proposed throughout the long, dark centuries that have passed, during which, God knows, the world suffered severely from wars brought about by rotten diplomacy. **Sir Robert** Peel once said that secret diplomacy was a costly engine for bringing about peace. Voltaire declared it to be a ".field of lies." I think he was right. So far as we have been able to trace the doings of the diplomats of the various nations, they have never been honest either with their own people or with the Governments with which they were negotiating. The history of their operations goes to show that their treachery to their own people plunged the world into war time and again. The time has arrived when the people of every- nation must say to those in power, " Before you declare war we must know the reason for it, and we must know who is responsible for the war." When the people of the different nations become fully alive to the fact that they have it .in. their power to prevent war, I am certain that universal peace will be brought about. It can only be secured through the people of every nation becoming united in the League of Nations and determining, once and for all, that secret diplomacy shall be abolished, and that whenever a dispute arises between nations, the rest of the world shall be informed how it came about, and be given an opportunity to say whether it shall continue. France is undoubtedly the greatest military power in the world to-day. The French people, among whom I do not include lie military, are a lovable people. The military forces of France are to-day pursuing a war of domination in the Ruhr to the detriment of the French people, the rest of Europe, and of Great Britain. Representatives of the Labour party of Great Britain visited the Ruhr to find out for themselves the actual conditions obtaining there, and this is, briefly, what they report - >We found a state of war in the Buhr. A& invading army is occupying this region, whose commander issues orders to the civil population and punishes disobedience of them. Motor cars, locomotives, hotels, and public buildings are requisitioned, leading citizens are seized as hostages, and individuals, considered undesirable by the invaders, are expelled, together with their families. If this is not war, it is difficult to say what it is. Such proceedings would be illegal in time of peace. There is the statement of a body of honest men who visited the Ruhr to ascertain for themselves the facts of the French occupation of that district The French military people are pursuing a very dangerous course. They have loaned 400,000,000 francs to Poland for the manufacture of war material, and 300,000,000 francs to Servia. The whole of that money is to be used in the manufacture of arms and ammunition by French manufacturers. Neither Poland nor Servia will receive one shilling in cash. All they will get will be war material manufactured in France. Servia' and Poland are really being asked to back France up in all her invasions. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- And now France has taken over Krupp's works in Germany. {: .speaker-JT7} ##### Mr McNEILL: -- The honorable member reminds us that France has now taken over. Krupp's works. I say that France is not pursuing a wise or< an honorable course. France has not paid her debt to England, although requested to do so. She is loaning hundreds of thousands of francs to European States who are prepared to assist her in time of war. If Great Britain is involved in a war in the near future, it will be not with France but with Japan. We have nothing to fear from J apan. France is deserting her Allies - Great Britain, Italy, Australia, and other .nations-^- who helped .to defend her fair lands from the invading Army. She has invaded Germany, not for reparation, but to acquire the rich coal valley of the Ruhr. The Prime Minister has many problems to face at the Imperial Conference. He will be asked to express an opinion on the invasion of the Ruhr and other vital questions, and I shall be very disappointed if he does not voice the sentiment and ideals of Australia. The time is not far distant when peace will reign supreme. Man was not created to quarrel and fight. It is true that the immortal Burns, in one of his lonely moments, wrote, " Man was made to mourn " ; but I do not agree with him. I believe that man was made to be happy, and that he mourns only because of " man's inhumanity to man." If God-given rights were supreme there would be no squalid slums and the misery which exists in every, large city. For the sake of peace and prosperity we should strive to bring about better conditions for the human race. Let us waft the cry of peace over the ocean north, south, east, and west. We who live under the Southern Cross believe that the world's peace can be attained by negotiation with other nations. We can determine that war and its attendant crimes shall for all time cease. {: #subdebate-24-0-s11 .speaker-K9H} ##### Mr GARDNER:
Robertson .- Before my election to this Parliament, L was led to believe that a surplus shown on the balance-sheet of this country's operations for any one year was based on sound figures, but I understand from some honorable members that the figures shown in Budgets are of a very ephemeral character, and do not always represent the true position. I congratulate the Treasurer for presenting a Budget which in the main is satisfactory. The Prime Minister **(Mr. Bruce)** gave the Nationalist candidates at the last elections the impression that up to last year, because of war commitments, there had really been no opportunity to seriously curtail expenditure. This has been borne out by the Budget of the Treasurer. He is meeting with the same criticism as was experienced by his predecessors, and I sympathize with him. Criticism is one thing, but the assumption of responsibility is another. As the Treasurer has been in office only six months, and this is his first Budget, I am sure the Committee will give him credit for honest intentions and judge him by results. The Government have seen fit to alter the method of tax collection. The taxpayers for some considerable time have considered that there should be one taxing authority. Duplication entails unnecessary expense, and this should be eliminated in the compilation of electoral rolls. At present the proposals for one tax-collecting authority are somewhat indefinite. The Commonwealth and two of the States have agreed that the State authority shall collect the tax. The Commonwealth taxation laws will remain in force, but one set of officers will be responsible to the State and Federal Commissioners. . Having had some experience as an accountant, and in the Taxation Department, I know that the Government cannot expect very much benefit from taxation reform during this year. First of all, the Commonwealth Act is difficult to administer. I understand that a conference of taxation experts will be held in September next to try to bring about the uniformity of taxationlaws. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- There is every prospectof a satisfactory settlement of that matter. {: .speaker-K9H} ##### Mr GARDNER: -- I am glad to hear it. Until it. is proved to the contrary I shall not change my view that uniformity will be better brought about under the Federal Act than under the different State measures. We should rid this country of laws involving unnecessary duplication. Two taxation returns have now to be supplied, and theperpetual queries issued by each Taxation Department harass the taxpayers. According to the Budget, the amount extracted from them during the years 1914-1922 was about £141,000,000. It is a heavy tax, but we must remember that a great deal of it was levied for war commitments, which was the monetary price paid for Australia's freedom. The taxpayers of the Commonwealth are looking for relief not only from duplication of taxation; they are awaiting the fulfilment of the promise of the Government for some remission of taxes. The reduction of the postage rate is a general relief to the country. In the taxation schedule I find, under War-time Profits Tax, a total revenue of £8,382,162, and a debit balance outstanding of £125,000. This tax was most inequitable and difficult in its incidence. The officials of the Taxation Department found it almost impossible to work under that Act, and it was a mistake to bring the primary producers under it. Although the primary producers obtained good prices during the war, it is a well-known fact that one year they obtain high prices, which vanish in the next. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Charlton),** that debts must be paid. I am not concerned because the war-time profits tax hit hard a section of the community, whose stocks in hand increased in value to an enormous extent, and who during the war made enormous profits. Whilst the primary producers were mulct in this taxation, another section of the community that could have been included with more justice was overlooked. Many professional men rendered war service. I am quite sure that the Treasurer **(Dr. Earle Page),** and other members of the medical profession, made a considerable financial sacrifice through their service at the Front. Barristers and members of other professions must have done the same, and I cannot believe that others in those professions who did not go to the war did not derive a certain amount of benefit from the absence of their competitors. The war-time profits tax could have been applied to them with more justice than to the primary producers. The honorable member for Macquarie **(Mr. Manning)** suggested that because of the precarious nature of their industry and their uneven incomes the primary producers should be given the benefit of a differential rate of income taxation. But one does not pay income taxation unless he has a certain minimum income. Therefore, I am not in favour of a differential rate for any one section of the community, but I would like this Parliament to extend the averaging system on lines that would be more fair to the primary producers. Another desirable reform is in regard to the taxation upon natural increase. The ordinary definition of income is money received in cash or negotiable security. Until the farmer or grazier has realized his natural increase he has not received income from that source. Therefore, when taxation is collected from him in respect of natural increase which he has not sold he is being taxed on a fictitious income. There seems to me to be an anomaly in the proposed amendments of the law relating to the taxation of companies. Undoubtedly, the Commonwealth officers have found it difficult to collect taxation on distributed dividends. The State Government found, long ago, that it was impossible to trace dividends paid by a limited company into the hands of the shareholders, and, consequently, they adopted the system of taxing at the source. The Treasurer said, in his Budget speech - >With a view to bringing about more uniformity in the taxation systems; and to make the administration less expensive, the Commonwealth Government has decided to submit an amendment to Parliament providing for the imposition of a tax on companies at the flat rata of1s. in the £1, instead of the present tax on undistributed profits. Where, however, the normal income tax rate imposed upon an individual is in excess of1s., he will be charged income tax upon those dividends as at present, subject to a rebate of1s. in the £1. It does not appear to me that the Government are adopting the system of taxing at the source. They are really imposing a flat rate of1s. in the£1 on the whole of *the* profits of the company, irrespective of the dividends, and they are still endeavouring to follow the dividends into the hands of the shareholders. Why not makea complete change by adopting the system now, operated by the States of taxing companies' profits only at the source? My attention was drawn to this anomaly in the Treasurer's proposal by an article in the Sydney *Bulletin.* That journal pointed out what will happen to a taxpayer who is paying a rate of 8d. in the£1. The effect of the Government's proposal will be that the poorer shareholder will be disadvantaged, so far as his income from companies is concerned, in comparison with other shareholders. If the rate he pays is 8d. in£1 such a shareholder will be penalized to the extent of 50 per cent. for his contribution towards and assistance to Australian industries. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- Another means of equalizing the tax will be provided. {: .speaker-K9H} ##### Mr GARDNER: -- Although there may be a difference of opinion amongst honorable members as to the extent to which the Commonwealth can increase invalid and old-age pensions, we are all in sympathy with those old pioneers who have borne the heat and burden of the day, have directly or indirectly contributed to the taxation of the country for many years, and have reared families of *young* Australians, than whom, as has been truly said, there are no better immigrants. Whilst one's sympathies may suggest an increase in the pension by 5s. or even 10s.,this matter, like all others, must be dealt with according to the financial capacity of the country. As the proposed increase and alterations of the conditions governing the pension will increase the burden of the Commonwealth by £1,065,984, it cannot be denied that in setting aside this sum for the aged people the Government have done something substantial. I am very pleased also that many of the anomalies in the Act and regulations are to be removed. It seems to me that the exemption allowed in respect of the amount of property held by the pensioner is not sufficient. A pensioner who has been thrifty and has managed to acquire a house in addition to the home in which he lives shouldnot therefore be penalized. The conditions in that regard should be liberalized. The Government might have been more generous in regard to the amount which a pensioner may earn without detriment to his pension. However, the proposal to, appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into pensions and national insurance has met with the approval of honorable members on both sides of the House. This investigation will letus know exactly what the Commonwealth can most effectively do to provide for old age and invalidity. Speaking on the Address-in-Reply, I said that I had no objection to a reduction in postage rates, but I regarded the efficiency of the service as the paramount consideration. I said then, and I still think, that a reasonable amount should be paidfor such efficiency. The people of Australia are asking for economy, and the Treasurer is very keen upon bringing about a reduction of '.expenditure, but there can be false economy'. What we require is efficiency, and I believe that the Australian people are prepared to pay for it. I do not believe in pitting country interests against city interests, but as a country representative with country interests, I hold that the outback people are entitled to the best conveniences that this Parliament can give them. Such facilities are not only essen tial to the conduct of their industries, but are necessary from a social 'stand-point. Telephones which bring the settlers into closer relations with their neighbours, and make possible some of the amenities of social intercourse, mean a great deal in the outback country. Sometimes they are -the means of saving life. I know that the sympathies of the PostmasterGeneral **(Mr. Gibson),** are with the country people, but has he made an accurate estimate of what his Department -can do, and have the Government gone fully into this matter? If t]*V are making a mistake it will be their funeral, not mine. I can judge them only on the outcome of their policy. Will the policy of extending facilities in the country, which was initiated by the Nationalist Government, be continued with greater concessions, or will the reduced postal charges mean the starving of country services ? My attitude towards the Government in this matter will be affected by the results of their policy. I understand that owing to the efforts of one very capable man, assisted by other officers; considerable re-organization has taken place in the Postal Department end, therefore, I hope that the PostmasterGeneral's expectations will be realized..; It is very gratifying to find that the Government have, by providing £500,000 for the purchase of wire netting, recognised that the rabbit pest is a national concern. A portion of the money is allocated to the Northern Territory, but States in which the rabbit has become a great menace will participate. Tn the district I represent the provision of wire netting is a matter of vital concern to the producer. It is recognised by most practical men that very often two-thirds of the dire effects that are attributed to drought are really due to the rabbit pest. The Government deserve the thanks of . the primary producers for having recognised the obligation of the National Government in this regard, and Ifr. *Gardner.* I hope that the finances in the next year will permit of their proceeding further in the same direction. I was not able to take part in the debate on the Imperial Conferences, and I take this opportunity of referring to the amount of £250,000 which has been placed to a reserve account in the Defence Department. Foreign relations and trade relations are probably the most important issues that this Parliament can discuss. It behoves .every member of this ..Committee to have the courage of his convictions, and to say where he stands. I had the courage of my convictions in my electorate of Robertson, and I have similar courage in this House. I listened with attention to most of the speeches made on this subject, although I missed some of the good addresses. Without making an acute analysis of those speeches, I think it may be said that, after all, there is not very much difference between our opinions about Imperial relationships and foreign policy. The Prime Minister, on behalf of this side of the Chamber, and the Leader of the Opposition for -the Labour party, showed clearly that there was no intention to support what was known a few years ago as the policy of " cut the painter." It is generally recognised that Australia's safety lies in her remaining an integral part of the British Empire. That is precisely my view. I believe that the crimson tide of kinship, as it was once described by that grand old statesman, **Sir Henry** Parkes, still flows through the veins of Britishers, and that we are proud to belong to the British Empire. With my limited political experience, I cannot attempt to throw light on Imperial and international questions, but I am certain that our safety lies in remaining a part of the British Empire. If trouble arose, in Australia it would affect every part of the Empire. If ' trouble arose in the Homeland it would also affect all other parts of the Empire. I hope that the Prime Minister, when he is in England, will make it . very clear that the people of Australia realize that their safety and future prosperity depend upon their continued connexion with the British Empire. I hope he will make it clear that Aus- ' tralia is prepared to do her fair share in the defence of this country. What is the best thing to do is a matter for experts to decide. If one of tho best means to be adopted to safeguard Australia is to establish a Naval Base at Singapore, at a cost of something like £10,500,000, the majority of. the members of this Committee would be prepared to do their part towards it. The honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks)** made a strong point when he asked what was the use of us having an army and an aerial fleet for our defence if the high seas were not open to our trade. Where would this country have been if our primary products could not have been sent abroad during the war? That they were sent abroad with safety was due in a considerable degree to the work of our ex-Prime Minister **(Mr. W. M. Hughes).** Where would we have been had it been impossible for us to send food to the soldiers who were abroad fighting for our freedom? I believe the right honorable the Prime Minister is possessed of Australian ideals and of a love for this country, and that he desires to do his best in the high position that he occupies. I am glad that he has given us an assurance that he will not commit Australia to anything without the consent of this Parliament. Nothing could be more democratic than that. I am sure we all wish him Godspeed and a successful mission. The representatives of this country, who are elected to this Parliament on a franchise than which there is nothing more democratic in the world, not even excepting America, will be prepared to,give proper deliberation and consideration to whatever proposals he may bring back with him from the Conference. {: #subdebate-24-0-s12 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- The first item that strikes one on perusing the Budget is the enormous increase in our expenditure between 1913-14 and 1922-23. An increase of from £23,160,733 to £33,600,013 is . shown. The Treasurer told us where the increases have occurred. Included in his list were these items : - Losses on Fruit Pools, £312,000; Fruit Pool' advances, £551,000; loans for purchase of wire netting, £250,000; main roads development, £500,000; working of PostmasterGeneral's Department, £2,604,086. It is admitted that some of these items have arisen in consequence of peculiar conditions caused by the late war. The losses on the Fruit Pools, and possibly the expenditure on wire netting, and cer tainly the meat export bounties of £321,767, may be put down under that heading. I do not often agree with the right honorable member for North Sydney, but I must agree with him that certain items given in the Treasurer's list of increased expenditure were not spent during the last year. It is very questionable whether the Fruit Pool advances of £551,000 properly come into that period. I have yet to hear from the Treasurer an explanation on that item that will satisfy me. Certainly the amount of £250,000 for wire netting which is included in last year's expenditure has not yet been spent. The Treasurer's own statement proves that. He says, in respect of that matter - >In order to assist small holders in combating vermin, the Government has decided to make available a total of £250,000, to be advanced for the purchase of wire netting on long terms. Of that amount, a sum of £50,000 hae been set apart for the Northern Territory, and £200,000 will be mode available for the other parts of the Commonwealth. I submit that clearly proves that the amount has not been spent, and that it has been irregularly placed on the expenditure side of last year's balance-sheet. The inclusion of items such as that in the Budget makes the document of no use to the Committee in determining the exact financial position of the Commonwealth. I specially desire an explanation in regard to defence expenditure. We are told that the ordinary expenditure on defence this year is to be £662,000. Other heavy expenditure is to be provided for out of loan moneys. This country should take all possible steps to insure that we get full value for money spent by the Defence Department. Unhappily, I was a member of the Commonwealth Service for several years. I have a lively recollection of receiving weekly notices which were sent to officers of the Public Service inviting applications for highly paid positions in the Defence Department. The salaries were usually anything from £1,000 a year upwards. The idea of sending round a , notice was to give public officers an opportunity to apply for these positions if they possessed the necessary length of service and the requisite ability. I have been unable, in my experience, to find one case where the ex-Minister for Defence **(Senator Pearce)** appointed one man from the Commonwealth Service to. such a position unless he was a "brass-hat" political favorite. I refer to the period since the famous apostasy of **Senator Pearce** from the Labour party. It is freely admitted that under the ex-Minister, the Defence Department was what is commonly known in the country as a " muck-up." The Commission appointed shortly after the war went into the affairs of the Defence Department, and disclosed the greatest muddle that was ever made in any Department by any Minister in the State or ' Federal Governments of Australia. Although some people seem to doubt the capacity of the present Minister for Defence **(Mr. Bowden),** I believe they will agree that he would need to have very little ability indeed to enable him to do better than the* ex-Minister for" Defence **(Senator Pearce),** whom I have heard designated by his ex-leader, the right honorable member for North Sydney, as a "rubber-stamp." That, of course, is since they parted company. I cannot understand why a member of the previous Government, who is now our Prime Minister, on finding it necessary to jettison the right honorable member for North Sydney, has taken into his bosom the ex-Minister. for Defence, who proved throughout his experience to be one of the worst administrators with .which any Australian Government has been cursed. That is how he is regarded in Western Australia, at- all events. When the Prime Minister called for three cheers for him at Fremantle, three groans were given. We .find that the increased' expenditure in the PostmasterGeneral's Department between 1918-19 and' 1922-23 was £2,604,000. That is more than counter-balanced by a magnificent increase of £5,280,000 in the revenue. The revenue of the Customs and Excise Department has increased to £17,894,059. Of that sum £8,108,320 has come directly from duties on stimulants and narcotics. I would not like it to be thought that I am indulging in parochial politics, but the realization of the fact brings me to this position: There is a preponderance of males in the population of Western Australia, and, therefore, the revenue from narcotics and stimulants in that State is relatively, larger than in other States. We have in this connexion to consider the . climatic conditions, which, with some people, make stimulants a neces- sity. There is the further fact that men living in the bush indulge in tobacco to a marked degree, as a solace in solitude. I may say that I am still a Protectionist, in spite of what may be suggested to the contrary, bub there are several phases of Protection that have yet to be explained. I frankly admit that I am not such a red-hot Protectionist as I on cb was. We have the Trust problem in our midst, and there are Australian manufacturing firms which take advantage of the Tariff in order to put up the price of, say, McKay harvesters and other implements used by our primary producers. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- You cannot blame the Protectionist policy for that; there is another way of dealing with such people. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I believe that if this were an entirely Free Trade country we should not be able to control those engaged in the manufacture of such goods, whereas, with Protection, there is the power to legislate and insure good industrial conditions. I agree thus far with the honorable, member. I should now like to refer to the note issue. We are told in the Budget itself that the receipts up! to 1920-21 were £7,780,524. The intention of the Fisher Government was that the accumulated interest, less expenses, earned by the Australian Notes Fund was to be used for the redemption of Government inscribed stock and Treasury bills. That was the intention of the Fisher Government when the Commonwealth Bank was started. I regret to say, however, that since that date Treasurers, in common with the present Treasurer, have, . shall I say, niched those receipts in order to place them to the credit of the revenue. The present Treasurer finds it necessary to make an explanation, as follows: - >A profit was earned on the note issue in 1913-14, but it was not carried into the revenue account. The profit on the note issue, however, really was used to meet the expenditure of the Commonwealth. Under an elaborate system of bookkeeping, the money was transferred from the Notes Fund to the Loan Fund; and- to legally complete the transfer, the Treasurer sold Treasury bills to himself. . . . The present method of carrying ttc earnings of the note issue direct into the revenue account is shorter and simpler. You bet your life it is! It enables the Treasurer to take money in an irregular manner - money intended for the reduction of the national debt - and to pay it into revenue. We may have Treasurers in the future who will follow the example of the present Treasurer. **Mr. Mowilliams,** the former representative of Franklin, who. was the Leader of the Country party, agreed with this point of view. He knew very well that there was a distinct understanding that the revenue from the notes issue should not be taken into current revenue. I maintain that the Treasurer, instead of showing a surplus of £1,020,000, would have shown a deficit of £52,000, if he had deducted the moneys thus irregularly placed. Treasurers in the past, we know, have " played for safety," and have underestimated the receipts from Customs and Excise. That was the position last year. If there was no under-estimating, then the late Treasurer **(Mr. Bruce)** received £5,152,000 more than he expected, which I hesitate to accept. I think that the right honorable gentleman was also "playing for safety" in the Estimates he laid before the Committee. What would have happened if his figures had been realized, and he had received £5,000,000 less than he showed . in his Budget? We will allow the excess on the working of the Customs Department, £277,001), and even then a deficit is shown of £4,874,000, which, added to the £52,000, would have landed him in a very bad position. We have been told by the Treasurer that there is likely to be a falling off in the1 Customs revenue, but possibly a year hence he. will come forward with a revenue of £3,000,000 or' £4,000,000 more than his estimate, and say, " Alone I did it; I have proved, in spite of the right honorable member for North Sydney **(Mr. W. M. Hughes),** that the " man for Galway " is at the head of affairs!" I should like to say a few words about the proposal to reduce the rates of postage. I compliment the Treasurer on his brevity in dealing with this subject in his Budget. He uses nice, crisp sentences, but he departs from his usual method when he states in what almost amounts to a panegyric on the Post Office - >This .Department assists in providing comfort, convenience, and profit to all sections of the community. There is no other public activity which en tors more intimately into the life of" the people, who naturally demand that thu services of the Department shall be extended in every direction, and shall be of the most efficient character. That is for the special benefit of the " cockies " of Australia - >Those services are the chief means whereby our pioneers- Good old pioneers ! in the country are enabled to keep in touch with the outside world. The general .extension of the services along cheap, efficient lines will serve to break down the isolation, which is the biggest bar to successful settlement in Australia. Modern invention gives a hope that, by these, services, the disadvantages of the country, as regards isolation, education, and recreation, may be minimized, and that the present drift to the cities may be turned back towards natural life and settlement. All this is to be done by reducing the rate of postage from 2d. to ltd. I know there is a difference of opinion here with regard to this proposed reduction, and I say frankly 'that T am against the reduction. My opposition to it is not from party purposes, because I know I can find a number of gentlemen opposite who agree with me. The reduction proposed is one of over 60 per cent. If the rate were kept at 2d. and an ounce letter carried for that sum, there would have been a reduction of 50 per cent. {: .speaker-KXT} ##### Mr Paterson: -- Not in reality. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- There would have been a reduction of more than 50 per cent. However, in any case, the rate is to be reduced to l½d. Who is going to benefit? Will ' this help the workers of the country ? I know it will mean a gain of hundreds of pounds - big business - to the big newspaper proprietors and the banking institutions.. We are told that the reduction will mean a loss of £930,000 for the first year. Roughly speaking, there would not be more than 2,000,000 people in the Commonwealth who, write a letter once a week; indeed, I think I am overstating the position. The reduction means that these people will each' save per week, or a saving to them collectively of £216,000 a year, at the outside. We all know how seldom one receives letters from the bush, and altogether the reduction means a gain of £700,000 a year to the big business men of Australia. I was once employed in the Post Office under the State Government of Western Australia, and I know that in the lean years there was no rise of salary for the employees. I do not believe in the Department being made a taxing machine, but I think I can show the Treasurer that', if he and his colleagues really wish to assist the residents of the back country, they can do so in a way that will make country life more liveable. The only Department that comes closely into touch with the lives of the people in the back country, and brings them into any contact with civilization is the Post and Telegraph Department. I have made repeated applications for mail services in portions of my large constituency, and they have been turned down. It was contended that they would not pay. The important "port of Wynd*ham is 16 degrees south of the equator, and there are 300 white men to-day working there as hard as any 300 men at work in any factory in Australia. It takes six weeks and more to get a reply from Wyndham to Fremantle. We have been told that it is impossible to make use of the aerial mail service over the tropical country between Derby and Wyndham. Similar cases may be found in all the hinterland of Australia, and instead of cutting down postage rates, we should allow them to stand, and extend postal services for the benefit of the people in the back country. My own view is that the mau who desires a reduction below 2d. on the postage on a letter is - a born sweater. In this matter, to compare conditions in Australia with those in Great Britain or America is quite unreasonable. Whilst I am on the subject of the reduction of postage rates, let me refer to a matter connected with the Post and Telegraph Service to show how liberally the Government treat the employees of this Department in the back country. For sweaters in the back country commend me to the Post and Telegraph Department. There would be an absolute riot amongst average working people if a private employer were to offer them the terms for a mail contract that are offered by the Government through this Department. I should like further to refer to the way in which those in charge of allowance post-offices are treated. I recognise that the Postmaster-General is new to his position, and as he is taking copious notes of what I am saying, I shall look for reforms in his Department. I have a letter here from the postmistress at Mount S,ir Samuel. It is away in the middle of Western Australia. There are sandalwood getters up there at present. Western Australia is the only State that supplies sandalwood, and it supplies the whole requirements of China in this wood. The district will gradually be occupied with sheep, because, fortunately, in that portion of Australia, and all along the Murchison, it is possible to obtain sub-artesian fresh water at an average depth of 40 feet or so, which makes the country eminently fitted for sheep. I propose to let the PostmasterGeneral hear what the postmistress at Mount' **Sir -Samuel** has to say. I hope he will regard this as private, and will not sack her. She says in her letter - Now they want .me to make up quarterly telegrams, telephones,' and dockets, and to keep hooks, register letter-books, in and out parcel books, in and out postal note-books, stampbook, mail-book, and render a return every three months. She sent a form along to me to have it fixed up, but I am afraid that before I have completed it, it will be delayed so long that she will be fined. I ask honorable members to imagine what this lady receives for the services she is asked to perform. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- What is the revenue of /the office? {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I cannot tell the honorable gentleman. My own opinion is that no matter what the revenue of these out-back offices may be a minimum amount should be paid to those .in charge of them. This lady has to be in attendance at the office all the time. If she were a member of such an organization as the Australian Workers' Union the PostmasterGeneral would be paying her a fair salary. The Department should not take advantage of an employee because she happens to be a defenceless woman in the back country. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- The honorable member knows that these offices are given only to persons who have some other source of income. They are not given to anybody for a living. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I do not know that this lady has any other source of income. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- Then she has no right to have the office. If we had known that she would not have been given the office. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- There we are. There is the dark hand. I said I was afraid that this lady would get the sack. I am sorry that I mentioned her letter. Before I proceed I should like to know if I am to take the honorable gentleman's statement as a threat that this lady's job will be forfeited? {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- Not at all. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Honorable members will be interested to know that she receives a salary of £16 a year. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- - And probably the revenue of the office is not £8 a year. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- That may, or may not, be so, but I still maintain that if it is considered worth while to establish an office of this kind in the back country a minimum living allowance should be paid to those in charge of it. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- If that were done there would be no offices in the back country at all. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Why not, when the Government propose in future to carry a 1-oz. letter for lid., instead of a *oz.* letter for 2d. ? This lady gets 6s. 8d. per week, and if I went into the office of the honorable member for Fawkner **(Mr.** Maxwell), only to say, "Good day," it would cost me 6s. 8d. I trust the honorable member will be behind me in this matter. The postmistress, at Mount **Sir Samuel,** further says- - >I have, to find light, office clock, ink, and paper. They allow me £2 for stamps. If I want any more I have got to buy them out of my own pocket. I used to get 6d. in the £1 for stamps, but they cut that out. Cutting out telephones in and out what I am getting would not keep me in boots running up and down the passages. She receives now £16 a year, but she used to receive £11 15s. only. I suppose the extra £4 5s. a year, or about ls. 6d. per week, is to make up for the high cost of living since the war started. When she was in receipt of a salary of £11 15s. a year the Department sent her a cheque which has not yet been cashed. A letter sent to her, which I have here, reads as follows : - >Advise the payee, **Mrs.- ,** postmistress, > >Mount **Sir Samuel,** herewith find cheque in your favour for ls. for the following service -reallowance for September quarter. No wonder the lady says - >The cheque they sent me I am sending along. I am thinking of putting it in a frame. When the Postmaster-General goes with me through- the back country of Western Australia I am satisfied that I shall find him a most congenial companion, and I shall take him into the Post Office, where he will find this cheque in a frame at Mount **Sir Samuel.** I come now to another item of the Budget referring to proposed expenditure on the Murray Waters Scheme, and I mention the matter to point a moral. It is proposed that the Federal Government shall expend £350,000 during the current year on the Murray Waters Scheme. It is recognised that this is a national work. The Murray, flowing as it does between New South Wales and Victoria, and into South Australia, any improvement of it is considered a national "work, and £421,000 has. already been expended on the work. That is to say, that up to the end of the present, 'financial year the expenditure by the Federal Government on this work will amount to £771,000. I approve of that expenditure; but I say that once "we accept a policy of that kind, under which a group of three States may be developed with Commonwealth money, I have a right to direct the attention of honorable members to the fact that whereas the Tariff has led to the establishment of manufactures on the eastern seaboard, it has had the effect of abolishing them in Western Australia. I claim that they should help me to take the sting out of the Tariff as it operates in that State, by agreed ing to some arrangement for the development of Western Australia with Commonwealth funds. A special grant is proposed for Tasmania which is a very small island, whereas in Western Australia we have one-third of the continent, with a population of 350,000 people, and a Premier prepared to do his job. All the State services are starved because that number of people cannot carry out the job, and it cannot be done until the development of Western Australia equally with the development of other States is made a national question as the Murray Waters Scheme has been made. Until we have a statesman who will adopt that policy we shall not have one fit to govern Australia as a whole. I shall say no more on that question at present. There must be some arrangement come to for the development of the northern portion of Western Australia, which contains very fine country. I am against its development from here, because the development, from here of the Northern Territory has not been a credit to the Federal Government. I do not say that that indicates incapacity on' the part of the members of the Government. When a member of this Parliament is chosen by his fellowmembers as a member of a Government, it indicates the possession of a reasonable amount of intelligence, and that he is fit to carry on his job with some schooling; but no effective work can be done by centralizing the functions of administration. . The Government propose to go in for large defence schemes, but no set scheme of defence is at present decided upon, and great authorities are not agreed upon one. The honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks)** is a great man on warships after the Japanese pattern, and other authorities almost as great - who have been heads of the navies in Great Britain, the United States of America, and Germany - say that aircraft are the best means ofdefence. Whilst these men are divided on this question, I am not prepared to sink money in further ships of the *Australia* class which will have to be dismantled in the future. Our big work, until they settle this question of the best method of defence, is to put every shilling we have, as fast as we can, into developing this country. A support of my argument is furnished by the operations of the Meteorological Bureau, which is administered by the Home and Territories Department. Honorable members will agree with me that if there is one thing necessary in the back country it is to have scientific data regarding annual rainfall. In my district there is a town called Mullewa, which is in the centre of a pastoral district. It is a growing town. I wrote some time ago to. the Home and Territories Department and asked for a meteorological station there. The Department replied that it did not think that it would be able to consider the question that year, because it was proposing to place a meteorological station at Morowa. I asked for meat, and they gave me a bone. They advised me to apply again next year. They recognised that another Treasurer would be in office then - " another Daniel come to judgment." The letter I received from the Department reads as follows: - >In reply to your letter of 30th July, respecting the establishment of meteorological stations at Mullewa and Morowa, Western > >Australia, I regret to state that the greatly reduced amount set down in the printed Estimates for 1923-24 for the meteorological branch, will not permit of the establishment of any additional official meteorological stations in the Commonwealth during the current financial year. During the past seven to ten years - the honorable members for Forrest **(Mr. Prowse),** Swan **(Mr. Gregory),** and Fremantle **(Mr. Watson)** will corroborate my statement - vast areas in Western Australia have been brought under wheat. In many of those areas there are no weather records. The farmers cannot tell from year to year what the conditions are likely to be, and they have no statistics to assist them in deciding whether the country is suitable for growing wheat. This Government, if it stands for anything, should stand for making scientific knowledge available for the use of Australian primary and secondary industries. I regret to say that during the last year or two the Government has shown a. tendency to withhold the few thousand pounds necessary to make for efficiency. This policy is exemplified in the Institute of Science, and Industry. Instead of making this Institute efficient, the Government is starving it and throwing the money that should be spent upon it into schemes for retaining men in the Defence Force. It is no exaggeration to say that scores of thousands of pounds a year are paid to high salaried officers in the. Defence Forces, although there are no men for them to command. I received a telegram the other day from Wyndham. A new cattle pest, called the buffalo fly, has developed there. It was imported with the Indian buffaloes, taken into the Northern Territory by Malays many years ago, probably before the white mancame to Australia. This fly isabout one-eighth of the size of. the domestic fly. The buffalo keeps himself fairly immune by immersing himself in water. He is a semi-aquatic beast, and he lies in the water with only the tip of his nose above the surface. When the fly rises to his nose he plunges that organ under the water and "blows" in a similar way to a whale. These flies have attacked horses and cattle, more particularly cattle., These plagues among cattle, as may be noticed by even casual observers, resemble pestilences among human beings in that they occur in epidemics, and spread through the coun- try like wildfire. That is what has happened with the buffalo fly. It has now spread into Queensland and the Kimber- leys. A telegram from Wyndham asked me to see. the Institute of Science and Industry about it. I went there and inquired whether they had any data. They told me they had, and that it .was sent in by **Dr. Gilruth** as long ago as 1920, when it was pointed out that the pest was. becoming a great danger in the Northern Territory. When they get on cattle, these flies bore a hole through the hide and into the flesh. They exist' in millions, and when a beast becomes infested it is not long before it is in poor condition and unfit for market. Cattle raisers in the Kimberley district are naturally alarmed at the spread of the pest. Although data has been in the hands of the Institute of Science and Industry for several years, no funds have been provided to enable the Institute to take steps to discover a method of coping with the pest. We have, a Government with an overflowing Treasury distributing *largesse,* but it starves the services essential for building up this country.. To illustrate the methods of the Government towards secondary industries, I want to read one or two opinions of gentlemen who are interested in the asbestos industry in Western Australia. - 'Directly to the north of Geraldton there are immense deposits, extending right- up to ' the Kimberleys, of various kinds of minerals. -It has been stated -repeatedly, not only by members for the district, but also by reliable prospectors who have gone out there, that that portion of the country is the richest they have seen in different kinds of ores, the mining of which would be payable if transportation were provided. That is the testimony of men who have been mining in different parts of the world. Deposits of asbestos have a very wide range in that part of the country. Gentlemen who were interested in about 100 square miles of country at Moora, on the Midland railway, had tests made to discover the value of the asbestos there. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- The Country party members ought to have reserved that commodity for their own use in the next world. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I hope the Country party will assert itself in this matter. They, and not a Labour man, should be -stirring up the- Government to ;a realization of the needs of our primary industries. As far as that party is concerned, I have never interested myself sufficiently to try to discriminate between them and the Nationalists. Between them I can find no essential difference. My attitude towards the Country party is like that of a man who had a good-looking wife and a good-looking sister-in-law, . but the latter was . the younger. In appearance they were alike. A friend said to him, " Your sisterinlaw is very much like your wife. How do you discriminate between the two," and the man replied, "I do not try." And so I do not try to discriminate' feetween the Country ' and Nationalist parties. Reverting to the subject of Moora asbestos, Edward S. Simpson, Doctor of Science, Government Mineralogist and Chemist of Western Australia, has made the following report: - >The *Moora* asbestos is in soft flexible fibres, easily separated from one another, from J inch to 2 inches in length, and possessed of high tensile strength. Such a material should find a ready market, and would be particularly useful for making fibre cement, wall sheets, &c. This statement shows that the asbestos is not of. inferior- quality. Honorable members know that . for manufacture it is necessary to have-' a product of good quality. The Minister, for Railways in Western Australia gave this asbestos a trial, and stated- - . We have now six locomotive boilers which have been put to stationary work covered with your asbestos.. It is a very good boiler covering, 'easy to mix and put on, and hangs well to boiler. It is .quite equal to Bell's or the K2 boiler compound.' " . A tribute from Mcllwraith, McEacharn Proprietary limited reads as follows: - >We have pleasure in stating that the two boilers, and also the cylinders of our local river- steamer *Westralian,* were covered in > >November last with asbestos, supplied and applied by your company, .and our experience "in the case of this vessel goes to show that your composition is ' quite .as good as, if not superior to, the imported article. I have a further testimonial from the Western Ice Company Limited, Perth, reading - >Owing to the fibrous nature of the material we did not use 'any woven wire for reinforcing, and it has now been under the severest tests for over twelve months. It has made a marked difference to our coal consumption, and hae in every way proven itself satisfactory to what it is claimed to be. Those quotations show the excellent nature of the product. The company considered that as the Commonwealth were building ships, asbestos would be of great Utility to them. Consequently, on the 3rd October, 1922, they wrote to **Mr. W.** M. Hughes, Prime Minister, Melbourne, as follows: - Asbestos. Referring in my letters to you of the 4th December and the 11th January last, I beg to complain of the manner in which we are being treated over our new asbestos enterprise in tills State by your Shipping Department. In those letters I asked you to assist our new enterprise by using our asbestos on the Commonwealth Line of steamers, and on or about the 1st February last, I sent you samples of same. You referred me in the matter to the manager of your Shipping Department, who referreditto the builders of your ships, who were to communicate with me on the subject. They did not do so, and on the 17th May I wrote to them on the subject with sample, but without eliciting any reply. As they did not answer my letter, on the 1st August I wrote to your Director of Shipbuilding on the subject, and he referred me to **Mr. W.H.** Brewer of the Silex Asbestos Works North Melbourne. I then wrote to that gentleman with samples, and in reply he tells me he has no use for our products, as he has been making up this class of goods for over thirty years. Naturally, he is not anxious to have a competitor in the trade. I submit, sir, that this is hardly the way to assist this State in a new industry, and I should be obliged by your having a sample sent to me of the asbestos boiler composition used on your steamers, with its present price, and that future supplies of this and other asbestos materials should be obtained, as in this State, by tender, *in* order that we may be put on at least level terms with those who now furnish them, as I am confident we could successfully compete with them, nut only in price, but -also in quality. Our asbestos lagging, as supplied to the State Steamers Department here, is all asbestos, and requires no binding material added to it, and is much cheaper than the imported article. If, as in the eastern States, it is required in the usual compound of about 15 per cent. asbestos to about 85 per cent. of clay or magnesite, or both, we can supply it in that form at a reduction of at least 30 per cent. on what your Government has to pay for it for its ships, railways, and other public works. All we ask for is a fair trial and the opportunity of competing in this trade with those who are providing your Government supplies. No reply was received. On the 22nd June of this year the company wrote to the present Prime Minister, as follows: - >On the 11th January, 1922, I wrote to the Chief Engineer of the Commonwealth Shipping Department, sending him samples of my asbestos boiler lagging, and asking him to obtain his supplies from me. . I have. since ascertained that the asbestos used for lagging in the construction and maintenance of the Commonwealth ships is supplied, not from Australian sources, but by the English Combine of Bell's Asbestos Company, to a firm in Wales, who supply it to an agent in Melbourne, who passes it on to the contractors in building and supplying your ships, and at a much higher price and of an inferior quality to mine. These communications show that in the construction of ships the Government have specified Bell's asbestos and no other. Therefore, the products of Australia have no possible chance to compete. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- The Government do discriminate in that case. {: #subdebate-24-0-s13 .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Yes, against Australia; no Australian need apply. I do not expect this Government to adopt the policy of the Labour party to develop secondary industries; but I am hopeful of at least some support from the Country party standing behind the Government, even although they do not stand for Socialistic enterprises, unless they derive a benefit from them. In Western Australia the Country party are not in favour of the State brickworks, although it shows a profit, but they support the State implement works, which is unprofitable. That is one of their idiosyncrasies which I leave them to explain. I wish now to deal with the Government's attitude towards the lead industry. Geraldton in my electorate is the centre of a leadbearing area extending 150 miles in length and several miles in width. So far as I have been able to ascertain, in no other part of the world is there such an extensive area of plumbiferous country. Long before Perth and Fremantle were joined by railway, a line was constructed from Geraldton to Northampton, a distance of 60 or 70 miles, where a number of Cornish miners had settled, and were developing the lead deposits. Buildings are still to be seen at Northampton which were built and occupied by those pioneers. They worked the mines intermittently, according to the price of lead. From that time onward the Northampton mines have been worked more or less continuously, and always by small syndicates. Big companies such as operate at Broken Hill and Kalgoorlie are unknown at Northampton. At Geraldine are to be seen the remains of an old town built seventy years ago, when lead mining was very active. Within the last four or five years rich discoveries have been made on the Murchison River, and it is said that the richness of the Surprise Mine is not equalled by any other lead mine in the world. This property is owned by a company, but the state of the metal market is such that it is impossible to get additional capital with which to develop the mine. It was, however, operating very actively during the war, but the muddle made by the then Prime Minister **(Mr. W. M. Hughes)** of the handling of all base metals extended to the lead-mining industry in the Northampton district. Prior to the establishment of the Australian Metal Exchange under the aegis of the right honorable member, the mines were paying very well, but thereafter the owners were refused the right to send their concentrates abroad, as they had been doing hitherto, and were compelled to ship them to the metal exchange. They had to pay that body a certain amount for handling the ore which they did not wish it to handle, and they had also to meet the cost of shipment to and treatment at Cockle Creek. The result was that whereas previously they had been making profits, they now began to lose money. Up to date the mines of the whole Geraldton district have produced 209,958 tons of crude ore, from which 24,266 tons of metallic lead has been extracted, for a return of £595,000. The freight on the transport of the ore on the Midland railway from Geraldton' to Fremantle, a distance of about 300 miles, was £245,000, leaving the producers only £350,000 with which to pay the cost of mining, treatment, and . marketing. Naturally, those engaged in the leadmining industry were anxious to establish treatment works at Geraldton, and the then honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** asked .these questions in the House on 16th October, 1919- {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether, in view of its geographical position, base metal ores produced in Western Australia may be exported for treatment and sale to Great Britain without special application being necessary in each case, until such time as efficient and suitable treatment plants are available within the State? 1. Whether definite action will be taken by the Government to give effective consideration to the interests of the producers of metalliferous ores throughout Australia? The replies of "the then Prime Minister **(Mr. W. M. Hughes)** were - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The policy, of the Government is to encourage the treatment of all ores within the Commonwealth. It has pursued this policy during the war, arid, as a result, practically all the lead and copper, and a great proportion of tin, and other metals produced are now smelted and treated in Australia. The Government, however, recognise that the position of Western Australia, its geographical remoteness from the treatment plants of the East, impose handicaps upon the producer. While the war was raging this was inevitable; but now peace nas come, means have to be found to deal fairly with the Western Australian producers. 1. The Government will, therefore, make every effort to arrange for the erection of treatment works in Western Australia, and in the meantime will allow the export of ore to Britain, under proper safeguards, <that cannot be treated here, so as to give the producer the London parity. Export to countries outside -Great Britain cannot be permitted. That district subsequently became part of the constituency of Kalgoorlie, and I, realizing that the present Government, like its predecessor, is a Nationalist Government, and that its Leader is in agreement with the former Prime Minister upon everything except "the Prime Ministership, naturally expected that the promise made by **Mr. Hughes** in 1919 would be honoured by the Ministry of to-day. Accordingly, I asked this question of the Prime Minister on 1st March of this year - >Are lead ore concentrates from the Northampton and Surprise mines, in Western Australia, being sold in Holland at an increase of £3 per ton on the price paid by the obsolete Fremantle treatment works; if so, will he honour ti promise made by a previous National Government to establish up-to-date treatment works in Geraldton? I submit that in reply to the question submitted in 1919 by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** a distinct promise was made by the Government to assist the Western Australian lead producers to establish treatment works. - In fact, the opinion prevailed that the Government would undertake the work. The answer to my question read - >I have seen the newspaper statement that the proprietors of the Surprise Mine have made a contract with a Belgian firm, but I have no information as to price. ' The price I quoted was correct. The lead producers in Western Australia cannot have their product treated at the obsolete works at Fremantle, and by shipping it abroad they make £3 per ton more than if it were treated at the Fremantle plant. It is the duty of the Government to honour the promise made by a previous' Government and to establish lead-smelting works in Western Australia. The Prime Minister said that no such promise was made - I did not have this information then - and I acknowledge that at the time he was under the impression that no promise had been made. Some years ago the erection of co-operative smelters in Western Australia was suggested by the Commonwealth Government, but the project fell through owing to lack of Government support. It is my intention to again approach the Prime Minister on behalf of the lead-miners, who are working in small parties, and are doing a good deal to open up the country, in an endeavour to have an up-to-date smelter established. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Has the honorable member any idea of the probable cost? {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- No. But I know I would receive the support of the honorable member for Maribyrnong **(Mr. Fenton)** regardless of the cost, because he favours the establishment of secondary industries. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Of any industries. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Yes. I should also like to refer to the question of light dues. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr Earle Page: -- I hope the honorable member does not intend to deal with that matter at length at this juncture. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- At the suggestion of the Treasurer - who is the man behind the money, and is, therefore, for the time being, most important - I shall defer con-, sideration of that question until a later stage. The reduction of postal rates I know is a popular cry. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- I do not think it is. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- It iswith unthinking people: A reduction In postal rates will be of little assistance to the majority of the people of the Commonwealth. It will assist the big commercial firms, but the working people will not benefit to the extent of one1/2d. per month. In common with my colleagues, I intend to debate many items when the departmental Estimates are under consideration. I understand that some honorable members intend to discuss every item. The Treasurer has shown a surplus, but I believe a deficit of £5,000,000 would have been disclosed if matters had turned out as he anticipated. I trust that the Government will give close attention to the Western Australian matters requiring consideration, because many of them affect not only that State, but every part of the Commonwealth. {: #subdebate-24-0-s14 .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr COOK:
Indi .- Unlike the right honorable member for North Sydney **(Mr. W. M. Hughes),** I desire to tender my congratulations to the composite Government for what they have done, and especially the Treasurer **(Dr. Earle Page)** for the Budget speech submitted to Parliament, and although I am not tied to any party, the Budget generally shall receive my hearty support. When the departmental Estimates areunder consideration, they will doubtless be closely scrutinized, and I trust that constructive criticism will be offered. The Post and Telegraph Department is one of the most important Governmental activities in Australia, but I cannot agree to the proposed reduction in postage rates, which will involve a loss of approximately £1,000,000. Probably the Postmaster-General **(Mr. Gibson),** who is a very able man, and who has done more for. the country during the short time he has been in office than any other Postmaster-General, will be able to explain his attitude in such a way as to secure my support. I agree with a good deal of what has been said by the honorable member for Coolgardie **(Mr. A. Green)** concerning the need for increasedpostal facilities in country districts. When requests are submitted for additional mails the reply usually is that an additional service would not be profitable, but the Government must not overlook the fact that the men who are the backbone of the country are entitled to increased postal facilities to enable them to be brought into closer touch with civilization. When such requests are made applicants are required to send a cheque for a few pounds to cover probable losses. If losses are not incurred, the amount is refunded. Whilst such a policy is in operation, it is unwise to reduce the postage rates, particularly when we remember that, during the past five years, the business of the parcels postoffice has increased by180 per cent. Under the conditions which prevail at present, the Post Office is competing on more than a favorable basis with the Railway Department. There is room for an enormous extension in country telephone services. I do not wishto weary honorable members by reading lengthy extracts, but I could furnish important particulars from persons in different parts of my electorate, the reading of which would occupy over an hour. These statements would indicate clearly to honorable members how great has been the advantage to the country people of telephone communication. I am pleased that the Postmaster-General has organized the service so well, but honorable members will agree with me that there is still room for great expansion. Many of the post-offices in country centres are disreputable buildings. Some of them are merely iron sheds. The persons in charge are paid paltry salaries, yet. they are expected to conduct the King's mail efficiently. Whilst conditions such as these prevail we should not bend too freely to the great capitalistic press and to other pressure from the city, which has been instrumental in having this proposal brought before us. {: .speaker-KF9} ##### Mr A GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The papers will only give you an inch in the morning. I suppose that is about what they will give me. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr COOK: -- I do not care if they cut me but altogether.I am not here for advertisement; I am here to render service to the country. I trust the PostmasterGeneral will look very carefully into the position. I am not altogether assured that the officials who are doing our postal work favour the proposed reduction. I want to be shown that the country will not be cheated, and that expenditure in the country will not be unfairly curtailed to make up the loss of this large amount of revenue. I want to be assured that we shall not have to make this amount up by the land tax, or a dairy tax, or in heavy taxation through the Customs, or in any other way. If there is a possibility of that happening I shall oppose this reduction. Postal taxation is very fair, because it is spread over such a large number of people. I have no objection to the city people having all reasonable facilities so long as this Parliament sees that the country people are not made to suffer. Honorable members can easily find out my attitude on soldier settlement from the beginning of the war to the end of it. I did not realize that there were so many rotten eggs in the country until I took the platform on a certain question. Persons who held the same opinion as I did were with me. We may have been right or we may have been wrong in our opinion. I give all honorable members in this Committee credit for their convictions. I hope they will do the same thing by me. A great deal of political capital has been made out of the returned soldier. He has been used as a stalking horse throughout the country. I hope honorable members will believe that I am sincere when I assure them that I am absolutely in earnest when I say that we should give a fair deal to the 32,950 diggers we have placed on the land. The Federal Government has advanced £23,816,875 to the States to settle returned men on the land. If the State Treasurers find that they cannot pay the Federal Treasurer, honorable members must realize that we shall be in a queer position. We all desire to see the policy of the land settlement of soldiers succeed. The money which is making that policy possible comes from the taxpayers, and, irrespective of party, it is our duty to do our best to insure success. Can any honorable member say that the policy is a success at present ? I venture to say that the man who says, such a thing speaks with his tongue in his cheek. No doubt many of the men have succeeded. Certain individuals could be turned out in the street to-night with only1s. in their pockets, and within a week they would have a considerable amount of money. Some men have such ability that they would succeed wherever they were placed. When people wish to prove the success of the policy of the land settlement of soldiers they quote the cases of men of this calibre. But there are men of an entirely different nature. I assure the Committee that the great' majority of the diggers who have been placed on the land are right up against it. Our policy is to purchase large estates and to cut them up into smaller blocks. I believe most of the land was purchased at a reasonable price. If £12 an acre is paid for large areas, honorable members know that survey fees, concessions in respect of roads, the cost of travelling inspectors, and many other charges have to be placed against the holdings. The result is that land which cost £10 or £12 an acre in the first place may ultimately cost the soldier £20 an acre or over. A realization of that position is necessary if honorable members are to understand how hard it is for the returned men to make both ends meet. I suppose the majority of the men who have gone on the land have to support a wife and at least one child. That means that instead of having 32,950 persons on the land we actually have 98,850. The time has arrived when a thorough inquiry should be made into the settlement of soldiers throughout Australia. While the soldier settlement situation is as it is, we have very poor prospects of successfully settling immigrants. The Commonwealth Government has played the game fairly by the soldiers. It has contributed £2,980,000 free of interest to the soldiers. The position to-day, however, is such that we should thoroughly investigate it. I know that some men are leaving their blocks, and in a week another man may be sent to take up the work. There are quite a number of very successful settlers, but others have not been so fortunate, and if they were compelled to meet their liabilities, independently of interest, within twelve months or even two years, they would be " down and out." We must get into touch with the State Governments with a view to instituting an inquiry: No one has time for wasters, but those who are triers, and are prepared to "play the game," should be given a revaluation of their land, or concession in regard to interest, or something which will give them the heart to continue. There are hundreds who are in debt to such an extend that they have not any immediate chance of redeeming their liabilities. They lose heart, and at the first opportunity leave their selections. If the Government surrendered £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 in an endeavour to make soldier settlement a success, would it not be infinitely better than spending millions of pounds in directions that are not remunerative? I ask leave to continue my remarks at another time. Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 2260 {:#debate-25} ### WHEAT POOL ADVANCES BILL Message recommending appropriation reported. {: .page-start } page 2260 {:#debate-26} ### ADJOURNMENT Offer by Australian Shipping Company for " Austral " Ships. Motion (by **Mr. Bruce)** proposed - >That the House do now adjourn. {: #debate-26-s0 .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr MARKS:
Wentworth .- A few days ago I had the pleasure of conferring with the Prime Minister **(Mr. Bruce')** regarding an offer to purchase the " Austral " ships. I now hand to the Prime Minister an offer by the Australian Shipping Company, one of the largest shipping companies in Australia, for the purchase of eleven "Austral" ships. It is a very large offer. This company desires to cable to London directly the Government has considered the matter. I ask that the Government give the matter urgent consideration. {: #debate-26-s1 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley .- A rather unusual step has been taken affecting Commonwealth property to the value of hundreds of thousands of pounds. If it is the intention of the Government to dispose of these ships the Blouse should be given an opportunity of considering the matter, and of expressing its disapproval, should it so desire. It is astounding to me that a private member, no matter how eminent, how respectable, how honorable he may be, should bring to this Chamber an offer for the purchase of portion of a Commonwealth utility. Is this the manner in which the Commonwealth ships are to be disposed of? I view, with sorrow, the outlook for public life in Australia if the affairs of the country are to be conducted in this way. There is a principle underlying this matter. I do not insinuate - I would be the last to do so - that there is anything wrong with the *bona fides* of the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks),** but I do say that this is a most dangerous precedent to establish, and I cannot allow the matter to pass without entering my protest against what is being done. If the ships are to be disposed of, the straight and honest course is for the Government to call tenders in an open way. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- I brought the matter up in this Chamber in order that the whole thing might be open and straightforward. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The proper action for the Government to take if it intends to dispose of these vessels is to advertise that they are for sale, to call for tenders, and to allow the tenders to be considered upon their merits. To follow this other practice would mean that a particularly favoured individual would be able to purchase the ships, while other persons in the community would not be given the opportunity of doing so. I hope that the Prime Minister will not enter into such an agreement as is proposed. {: #debate-26-s2 .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE:
Prima Minister and Minister for External Affairs · Flinders · NAT -- The letter which the honorable member for Wentwortb **(Mr. Marks)** has handed to me I have not perused, and I do not know its contents. I thought I made it quite clear, when the Commonwealth Shipping Bill was before the House, that the Government does not propose to take any action with regard to these ships; they were all included in the schedule to the Bill as part of the property which will be handed to the Board when it is appointed. The Board will have the duty of considering which ships it is necessary to run in order to carry on the service that it is desired to have for Australia. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- The honorable member for Wentworth said that he had been conferring with the Prime Minister on this matter. ' {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- When the Board is appointed it will have to review the whole fleet, and decide which ships are to be run in order to give the service that Aus-tralia desires. Question resolved in the Affirmative. House adjourned at 11 pui.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 7 August 1923, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1923/19230807_reps_9_104/>.