House of Representatives
1 June 1921

8th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Deputy Speaker (Eon. J. SC. Chanter) took the chair at S p.m., and read prayers.

page 8735

WESTRALIAN FARMERS AGREEMENT BILL (No. 2)

Assent reported.

page 8736

LEAGUEOF NATIONS

PermanentCourtofInternational Justice.

Mr GROOM:
Minis- ter for Works and Railways [3.1].-(By leave. · Darling Downs · NAT

– Article 14 of the Covenant of the League of Nations provides for the establishment of a permanent Court of International Justice. At the first session of the Assembly of the League of Nations held in Geneva in November and December of last year a Statute providing for the constitution and jurisdiction of the Court was agreed to unanimously. A protocol was drawn up providing for the acceptance by the members of the League of the Statute and the jurisdiction of the Court. This protocol has already been signed by the whole of the British Dominions which are members , of the League, other than Australia, and the Government have now decided to authorize the Prime Minister to sign the protocol on behalf of Australia, and to request His Majesty, after the protocolhasbeen so signed, to ratify it. The acceptance of the jurisdiction of the Court does not extend to the acceptance of the compulsory jurisdiction provided for in the second paragraph of Article 36 of the . Statute.

page 8736

QUESTION

NEW GUINEA COMMISSION

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– Has the Acting Prime Minister received a reply to the radios he has been sending toGerman New Guinea during the past fortnight in the endeavour to get into touch with the missing expedition?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No reply has yet been received. The Administrator of the Territory is endeavouring to get into touch with the expedition, but has notyet been able to do so.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– Stop their supplies, and you will soon hear from them.

page 8736

QUESTION

MILITARY MENTAL PATIENTS

Mr LISTER:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation whether on the 27th April last twenty patientsin the mental ward at No. 16 Australian General Hospital, Mont Park, were ordered to be transferred from that hospital and to be received, ten into theKew Lunatic

Asylum and ten into the Sunbury Lunatic Asylum? If so under what authority were these patients ordered to be so transferred and to be so received into the said asylums? Who signed the authority, and when; and what was the reason for the transfer? The Minister has interested himself in these cases in the past, and we appreciate what he has been able to do, but things are not quite as they might be.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– No transfer of a military mental case from Mont Park has taken place at the direction of the Commonwealth Government or of a Commonwealth Minister; but if the honorable member will put his questions on the notice-paper I shall answer them in detail to-morrow.

page 8736

QUESTION

BUILDINGS AT CANBERRA

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Have plans for the Canberra Hostel andConvention Hall been receivedby the Acting Prime Minister? If so, when will the right honorable gentleman be prepared to make a statement to the House of his intentions about them!

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I have not received the plans referred to. They are more likely to have been received by the Minister for Works and Railways (Mr. Groom). No decision has yet been arrived at concerning the buildings referred to.

page 8736

PAPER

The following paper was laid on the table:-

Public Works Committee Act-Sixth General Report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works,

Ordered to be printed.

page 8736

QUESTION

LEAVE OF ABSENCE: SYMPATHY WITH. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

. - (By leave,)- I move -

That leaveof absence for one monthbe given to the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Hughes) on the ground of urgent public business.

While on my feet, may I say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, how deeply grieved we were by the cause of your absence last week, and may I extend to you our sincerest sympathy in the bereavement that has fallen on you? You seem to have had more than your share of these visitations, which are the common lot of us all; but you have the sympathy of the entire Chamber in the experience through which you have passed.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I thank you, Mr. Acting Prime Minister, and the members of the House, for your kind sympathy. The blow that has fallen upon me has been a very heavy one; but God’s will be done.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Mr RYAN:
West Sydney

.- (By leave.) - I move -

Thatleave of absence for one month be given to the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor) on the ground of ill-health.

Mr. Tudor is about to proceed toRabaul to recuperate, and I am sure that every honorable member sincerely hopes that he may soon return, fully restored to his wonted health.

I join with the Acting Prime Minister in offering to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the Opposition, our sincere sympathy in your recent bereavement.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to join in the hope expressed by the honorable member that the Leader of the Opposition may soon be restored to health. I understand heis paying a visit to Rabaul, and I have already placed myself in communication with the Administrator., informing him that Mr. Tudor is coming, and asking him to facilitate his visit in every possible way.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I thank the honorable member for West Sydney for his kindly remarks.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 8737

QUESTION

CONSUMPTION SERUM

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– I desire to ask the Minister administering the Commonwealth Health Department if any steps have been taken by his Department to investigate the claim made by Dr. Spahlinger, aSwiss bacteriologist, that he has discovered a serum for the treatment of consumption? I may state that the Victorian Government have deputed Mr. Jones, M.L.C, to investigate this claim on their behalf.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. The Government are in communication with the Imperial Government in regard to the matter.

page 8737

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CABINET

Mr RYAN:

– In view of the fact that the Prime Minister of New Zealand has stated that he hopes there may emerge from the discussion at the Imperial Conference an Imperial Cabinet like the Imperial. War Cabinet, and in view, further, of the fact that the Prime Minister of Australia (Mr. Hughes) intimated that such a possibility would not come within the scope of the work of the Conference, will the Acting Prime Minister be good enough to make a statement as to whether the agenda of the Imperial Conference includes the discussion of this subject ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am quite unable to state, at the moment, what is contained in the agenda-paper of the Imperial Conference. All I can say about the Imperial War Cabinet is this : It was an institution of the greatest possible usefulness during the war, all the Dominions being taken into the confidence of the Imperial Government: I cannot conceive of anything more useful than a repetition of those Conferences, so long as care is taken that they are on the same plan, and have in view the same objective, as the War Cabinet, which I was privileged to attend:

Mr Mathews:

– It sounds a bit dangerous; the thin end of the wedge.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not in the slightest degree dangerous, but full of possibilities for good to Australia and all the Dominions,

page 8737

QUESTION

CENSUS

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories yet prepared to make a statement as to the result of the census taken throughout Australia?

Mr WISE:
Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– No; I have no further information for the honorable member.

page 8737

QUESTION

INTERNMENT OF MR. DEHLE

Mr RYAN:

– Will the Assistant Minister for Defence be good enough to say whether the papers relating to the internment of Mr. Gus Dehle, of Hobart, will be laid on the table of the Library?

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I cannot say, but I shall look into the matter.

ADJOURNMENT (Formal).

Wool Market Depression.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I have received the intimation from the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) that he intends to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., “ The depression of the wool market, and matters in connexion therewith.”

Five honorable members having risen in their places,

Question proposed.

Mr BLAKELEY:
Darling

.- It is only because of the outcome of the deputation to the Acting Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Cook) the other day that I am moving the adjournment of the House in regard to this matter. The position of the graziers in New South Wales, and in the central western portion particularly, is such as to cause general uneasiness, not only in that district, but in other parts of the Commonwealth as well; for, while that portion of New South Wales is feeling the depression particularly, many other important districts of Australia are in exactly the same position owing to the fact that the Associated Banks have not only refused further cash advances to graziers, but have asked them to reduce their overdrafts. The position calls for action on the part of the Commonwealth Government because the situation is the outcome of war conditions, and therefore is national in character. The Acting Premier of New South Wales (Mr. Dooley) has been endeavouring to make some arrangement whereby the graziers in the districts affected may be able to stock up their holdings, and thus carry on the industry, thereby creating that wealth which is so necessary for the progress of the Commonwealth. The paralysis, so far as the wool market is concerned, is due to the fact that at present the people of Europe are unable to buy our raw materials, and apparently they will not be in a position to do so until some system of international credit can be arranged. I have no doubt that, under the

Bawra scheme, considerable relief will be experienced, but unless more credit can be established, our raw materials will be sold at considerably below their true market value. In the districts to which I refer, the central and central-west of New South Wales, I have particulars of forty-three cases of graziers - and these may be regarded as representative of the whole of those engaged in the industry throughout Australia - and I find that the amounts advanced by the banks represent 33 per cent, against the land, and only 27 per cent, against land, stock, and unsold wool. The outstanding debts average about 3 per cent, of the present assets. Thus the banks have advanced about 33 per cent, against the land itself, and only 27 per cent, against land and stock, excluding plant, which is a not inconsiderable item. The advances are on a very conservative basis, whereas the small land-holders find it impossible to stock up unless they are advanced up to 50 per cent.

The number of sheep grazed in New South Wales is about 14,000,000 below the average for the last ten or twelve years, a very disquieting fact when one takes into consideration the grasses and herbage available. On the other hand, Queensland has plenty of sheep and cattle, and they can be bought very cheaply; but if those who are anxious to buy are unable to get advances from the banks, or do not receive sympathetic treatment from the Commonwealth Government, that stock must remain in the northern State, and the paddocks of New South Wales must continue to remain idle instead of producing wealth. It is not only the graziers who are held up. In some cases mixed farmers are compelled to go slow because of lack of funds with which to pay wages to those who might otherwise be engaged in ploughing their land. The position is clearly set out in a schedule of forty-three cases which has been prepared, from which I shall take a few items indiscriminately.

In this schedule, sheep are valued at 15s. per head, horses at £8 per head, cattle at £6 per head, and wool at £10 per bale. The valuation is indeed conservative.

Case 43 is that of a settlement lease of 5,289 acres worth £1 per acre. It carries 1,173 sheep valued at 15s. per head. Other assets consist of two horses worth £8 each, and unsold wool valued at £210. The total assets amount to £6,395. The banks have advanced £1,010, and thi3 grazier’s outstanding debts are covered by another £516, but he wants a further £1,500 to enable him to stock up. He has been absolutely refused any further advance. Indeed, he has been asked to reduce his overdraft.

Case No. 1 refers to 3,877 acres of conditional purchase and Crown lease land valued at £1 10s. per acre, or a total value of £5,905. He has no stock and no wool. He owes the bank £2,226, and his outstanding debts amount to £200, but he requires a further £1,200 to enable him to stock up. He has been refused any further advance.

Case No. 3 refers to 6,000 acres of conditional purchase and Crown lease land valued at £1 10s. per acre, or a total value of £9,000. The stock is worth £1,500, and the unsold wool £300. The total assets are £10,800. There are no outstanding debts. A bank has advanced £4,500, but in order to stock the land properly the holder requires a further £1,,500. However, the security is not regarded as good enough, and the bank will advance him nothing further.

Case No. 4 is that of freehold, conditional purchase, and Crown lease land, comprising 2,710 acres worth £2 10s. per acre. The total value is £6,775. Ewes and lambs are worth £600, cattle £200, and horses £70. The total value of assets is £7,545, on which a bank has advanced £2,800. The holder, however, requires another £1,000 to enable him to stock up, but his bank has absolutely refUsed to give him any further assistance. a

Case !No. 5 refers to freehold, conditional purchase, and Crown lease land, comprising 9,612 acres. The freehold land is worth £2 10s. per acre, and is paid up to £1 5s. per acre. The conditional purchase land is worth £1 10s. per acre. The total value of the holding is £13,400. The stock is valued at £6,,075, and wool unsold is worth £930. The total assets are valued at £20,405, on which £6,700 has been advanced, hut the owner has been asked to reduce his overdraft. This he cannot do. As a matter of fact, he really requires more capital in order to stock up his property to its carrying capacity.

Case No. 7 is that of a Crown, lease on which all conditions have been fulfilled, and the property is now convertible to a freehold. It comprises 4,647 acres worth; at £1 per acre, £4,647. The sheep are worth £450,, and the unsold wool is valued at £110. The total value of the assets is £5,607. . The bank advance is £1,185, and the outstanding debts amount to £110, but the holder requires a further £1,100 to enable him to stock up his property properly. He has been absolutely refused any further assistance’. Indeed, he has been asked to reduce his overdraft as soon as possible. >l)

The Associated Banks have got cold feet, or they are in such a position through carrying the importers that they cannot advance further capital to any individual. It is beyond doubt that the grazing industry is perfectly solvent, because against the whole of the assets of the forty-three cases in this list, which are an average of conditions that apply throughout Australia, the banks have only advanced up to 27- per cent, of the value of the stock and land, exclusive of plant. . The whole of this information has been laid before the Acting Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Cook), who has promised to interview the Associated Banks. The deputation placed before the right honorable gentleman the following proposals, which he could not see his -way to accept : -

  1. That the Federal Government approach Bawra with the object of stabilizing the value of wool included in the free wool at present held, and the clip of 1921-1922, by guaranteeing a flat rate of lOd. per lb. (which was the average price for a series of years prior to appraisement scheme, on which the flat rate of 15Jd. was based), and paying for the free wool immediately, and the wool of 1921-22 on receipt of same in store after appraisement.
  2. That the Federal Government stabilizes the position of graziers generally by creating a credit with the Associated Banks by the issue of notes, such notes to be redeemed within three or five years. The credit so established to be used in the following manner: -

    1. Advances to be made on the security of lands to an aggregate including amounts already advanced by Banks not exceeding 65 per cent, of the value of the land. The Government to accept declarations from bank managers as to present day values of properties held as security, and the moneys so advanced to be on separate accounts, and not to be used in reduction of existing overdrafts,
    2. Advances up to 100 per cent, of value of certificates issued for wool appraised, on flat rate of l0d. per . lb. Under this it would be necessary for all wool to bo appraised by Bawra, and certificates issued (similarly to Wheat Pool) for the value of the clip.

The graziers, who are in bad circumstances, do not demand that the flat rate should be l0d. per lb., but they do say that some rate should be fixed which would provide them with some money with which to carry on.

  1. Alternatively to resolution 2, if the proposal for establishing credit by issue of notes be not favoured, that the Federal Government arrange a short-dated loan in London to stabilize the position of graziers generally, the whole of the money so raised to be made available for the Banks’ use, for advances as provided for in resolution 2 (a) and (b).
  2. Should the foregoing proposals be accepted, it is necessary for immediate action, and that the Government, instead of creating a fresh Department for the management of the business, appoint a committee of business men in each State to act as’ a sort of Board of Directors to pass advances, and, if necessary, arbitrate in the event of any differences arising regarding valuation of properties, &c.
  3. It is further proposed that a conference be called with representatives of the Associated Banks, the: Chairman, of Bawra, and representatives of the graziers to fully go into the matters raised by the deputation.

Personally, I do not take any responsibility for the suggested note issue or the short-dated loan in London. I believe there is sufficient credit in Australia to support men. who are absolutely solvent, and require only a little temporary assistance in order that they may re-stock their land and carry on until they have sold their wool, or until such time as the wool position is eased. Whilst the Acting Prime Minister may be opposed to any further inflation of the note issue, and will not entertain the suggestion for a shortdated loan in London, he should, at least, make some arrangement with the Associated Banks whereby they will not foreclose on small land-holders. It has been suggested by representatives of the Associated Banks that it is not their intention to. close down on the small men. Others cold-bloodedly say that times are bad, and the weakest must go to the wall. That is a brutal and vicious principle to enunciate. A man who has been twenty, thirty forty, or even forty-five years on the land, . and finds himself, temporarily embarrassed owing to drought, followed by floods and the depression of the wool market caused by internationalconditions, should not be forced off his land because of temporary tightness of the money market or panic on the part of the bankers. The schedule which has been filed deals with forty-three cases, in all of which it has been found that the valuation of properties is about twelve years old. The properties have not been re- valued in the meantime, although, in many instances, the value of the land has completely altered. Many of the properties have been further improved, and the titles have been converted. A property which might have been valued at £6,000 twelve years ago would to-day be worth probably double that amount. Notwithstanding that fact, the banks will do nothing to relieve the situation.

Mr Hill:

– Does the honorable member suggest that land in New South Wales and Queensland is as valuable to-day as it was two years ago?

Mr BLAKELEY:

– I say that the value of twelve years ago has been doubled. A great number of conditional purchase blocks and Crown leases have been converted, and conditions have been fulfilled which make the land considerably more valuable - 100 per cent, more valuable in some cases. Where the title of a conditional purchase has been converted the security is ever so much better. Sir John Higgins, the Chairman of Bawra, attended the deputationwhich waited upon the Acting Prime Minister, and we suggested to him that Bawra should take control of the whole of the wool. I am a frank advocate of the pooling system ; but Sir J ohn Higgins stated that unless thewhole of the woolgrowers were prepared to go into the Pool he could do nothing, whilst the Acting Prime Minister said that he would not compel wool-growers to place their wool to the Pool. If the wool-growerswere to come together and enlarge the business of Bawra, so that that body could establish credits and pay on appraisement, aswas done during the war, the situation would be considerably relieved. I believe that the pooling system is so good that it should be adopted always, and not only in times of war and financial stringency.

Mr Stewart:

– Would the .honorable member apply that advocacy to wheat -as well?

Mr BLAKELEY:

– I would. When hundreds of thousands of men are producing the same article, they should come together as a co-operative society for the selling df .their products instead of marketing them through agents like Dalgety & Co., Dreyfus & Co., :and other big wool-broking firms. The wool-growers and the wheat-growers could market their own products, and thereby eliminate the middlemen. . If the wool-growers establish their pooling system they will be in a very much better position than they are to-day. There is no difference between Bawra holders and holders df free wool. There will ‘be involved merely the matter of enlarging their business. It will be for wool-growers generally .to say whether they shall so expand their business. But it will take time ito inaugurate a scheme to pool the whole of the wool of .Australia o much time, .indeed, that those who are being .forced by .the banks to-day would probably find themselves removed from their small ‘holdings. The Prime Minister of South Africa (General Smuts) adopted a totally different attitude from that .”of the Australian Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes). T quote the following cablegram from Capetown published in the ‘ Sydney *Daily Telegraph df 28th May: -

Before sailing for London this, afternoon the Prime Minister made a statement on the wool position before the Assembly. -He said that the - Government ‘ had been negotiating ‘ for -the -sale of the new clip .to the British .Government, hut had found difficulties. He was .not /sure Whether it would succeed, and, therefore, in view of the financial situation, the Government had come to the conclusion that it would -he ‘necessary -to ‘assist ‘the producers to- revive the scheme in’ operation , -before ‘the war, whereby the banks, with -a Government guarantee, made advances on wool.

General Smuts-said that the wool and mohair farmers would be entitled to an advance of up to 50 per cent, on pre-war prices, which would enable them to tide over the financial depression. The Prime Minister praised the liberality Of the banks, which/had agreed to accept 64 per cent, interest. ‘He has impressed . on ‘ the banks 1 the .grave ‘necessity; owing to the present crisis, of not . contracting, credit for too much.

Apparently, .just what took place in South Africa in the matter of the banks forcing graziers .has occurred in Aus tralia. The -Government .can immediately relieve the situation here if they desire. . This is an absolutely solvent industry, requiring, perhaps, not more than a couple of millions sterling by way of necessary advances to those who are in need. It would be an easy matter to authorize the Commonwealth .Bank - which -would act’ in conjunction “with the Associated Banks - to establish a credit which would permit -these people .to -.stock up and carry -on. ‘If some such assistance iti not granted the -present condition of unemployment throughout Australia “must become considerably more acute. In Kew -South Wales there «re :between 10,000 and 15,’OGM men out of work. The position in Victoria is just as bad. Tn South Australia there ate some 5,000 men out, and the,re is unemployment in Western Australia, Tasmania, ‘and -Queensland. The shearing -season is approaching, but, -unless the industry is stabilized, -quite a number Who, ordi- narily, ‘would employ labour “for shearing’ will not -be in a position to do -so. Some people ‘believe,- -by the °way, that the -best way, -if not -the -only ‘way, -to ‘relieve -the -present situation ‘is to -establish soup kitchens and ‘give - out charity ‘doles. The whole -of the- pastoral -workers will be affected :by the “situation as ‘it -develops. That will . entail an immediate reaction dp on .country storekeepers, whose’ position, m turn, will react on city warehouses, and, -eventually, the - trouble will all come back ‘to the banks. I -ask -the Acting Prime Minister if he will not take immediate ‘steps to see’ that some relief :ie -granted ? It is only a matter of ‘consultation with ‘the Associated Banks, first, !’to ask ;them to withdraw the notices which they have issued.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Hoa. J. M. Chanter).- Order! The honorable member’s time limit has been reached.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I have not much that is fresh to say upon this matter. . The honorable member the other day introduced a deputation to me, which was representative of the men in the far-back districts referred to this afternoon - ?men who, .no-doubt, are in dire distress. I cannot ‘agree to ‘their proposals, however. ‘I told the deputation emphatically that. I would not have anything to do with the schemes propounded to me. I said I would not attempt to give them credit in the shape of further inflation of the currency to the extent of £10,000,000, as the deputationists suggested. I pointed out that that would not help them at all, but would only aggravate their difficulties. I told them I was quite unable, even if I were willing, to get them a loan of £5,000,000 in London at present. Just now, nearly all the States are, asking for loan money in London, and we ourselves need it- if we can get it - from that same source. Then there is the other proposal of the deputation, namely, that wool should be stabilized for two years by establishing a reserve price of l0d. per lb. on wool instead of 8d., as has already been agreed to. There may be some possibility of relief in that direction. Sir John Higgins invited these wool people to come into Bawra and avail themselves ofthe privileges which Bawra offers.Really, I think that that was good advice. Instead of this matter b eing brought before Parliament, as it has been to-day, and instead. of the Government being asked to acquiesce in impossible schemes, it would be wiser, to look a little nearer home and face the actual causes of the whole trouble.. The honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) stated just now that these valuations, which showed such tremendous margins, were the valuations of twelve years ago. He left it to bo inferred that the price of land in the districts indicated was very much higher to-day than it was then. But the contrary is the case. I understand that land in those parts is not now worth in some cases half what it was twelve years ago.

Mr Blakeley:

– The Minister does not know what he is talking about.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do! I would remind the honorable member that some of the causes of the trouble which is coming upon the people in whom he is interested are due to certain things which have been done and said in respect of land-owners by both the Queensland and New South Wales Governments.

Mr.Riley. - What are those things?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– By a certain proposal of the New SouthWales Government, the values of these lands have been written down. This has been brought about specifically by the State Government saying they would compulsorily resume holdings and -give the owners bonds bearing 4½ per cent, interest.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– This is something new. I have notheard of it before.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Heard of what?

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– Resuming land and issuing bonds.

Mr Watt:

– A Bill was prepared.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is the pro-, posal of the New South Wales Government, and I believe a Bill was introduced into Parliament.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– Give us one instance in which it has been done.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They have not done it, because they could not get the Bill through. They are threatening to pass it next session.

Mr Blakeley:

– It has not had the effect upon land values which the right’ honorable gentleman indicates.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– The Acting Prime Minister may speak of South Australia and New South Wales, but that is not the position in Queensland.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am referring to New South Wales, and did not mention Queensland. The fact is that honorable members opposite, and the parties with which they are associated, are responsible for writing down the values of those lands, and it is time they began to recognise that the chickens are coming home to roost. We sympathise with those who are the victims, but honorable members opposite and their political friends are causing many of the troubles with which the graziers are confronted. They are also largely responsible for the attitude of the banks, who see their securities becoming less valuable.

Mr.James Page. - The Treasurer knows that that is not true.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I would not say it. if I did not believe it to be absolutely true.

Mr Blakeley:

– Your information is incorrect.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member and his supporters know that contracts made with the leaseholders in Queensland have been interfered with, and that trouble has arisen in consequence of such action, which has adversely affected the money markets in London and in Australia. They cannot have it both. ways. Honorable members cannot go out with predatoryintentagainst these institutions, and then ask them to be more liberal than ever. It is of no use blinking our eyes at the situation. Personally, I have the greatest possible sympathy with those men who are struggling to keep their holdings, and who cannot secure the necessary accommodation from the banks.

Mr Gabb:

– The Acting Prime Minister is endeavouring to make political capital out of it. That is the extent of his sympathy.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Ishall leave it at that. In all the districts referred to by the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley), he and those with whom he is associated are helping these unfortunate people by submitting a new log for shearers which is going to add a groat deal to the graziers’ costs. I do not know the exact figures, but I believe it will mean a very great increase in the cost of production as compared with what it was before. On the one hand, there is a proposal which means more costly production by increasing the log rates, and on the other a request for financial assistance.Even the honorable member who submitted the motion will agree that that additional expenditure cannot be overcome bythe introduction of machinery, or anything of the kind.

Mr Blakeley:

– They have, no sheep to shear. They require money to stock up.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If they have no sheep to shear, will Bawra stabilizing the wool position help them ?

Mr Blakeley:

– I am speaking of some cases where they have no sheep to shear.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member knows that very many have stock, and those who are in trouble are entitled to the keenest sympathy the Government can give them.

Mr Lavelle:

– They want more than sympathy.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If the honorable member knows how to assist them, he should help. I am confessing that I cannot give them the assistance they require.

Mr Lavelle:

– Then the right honorable gentleman should resign.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If we resigned, a Government might be returned that would repeat the actions of the Queensland and Now South Wales Governments, which would make things a great deal worse.

Mr Lavelle:

– Why not assist the graziers as you did the wheat farmers a little while ago?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– All that I can do will be done. I trust the banks will be as lenient as possible. The policy of the banks throughout the world at the present time is to’ draw in as much as they can in the interests of their own solvency and financial stability. We’ have to meet the conditions that are upon us, and the honorable member for Darling stressing the so-called liberality of the South African banks does not help the position. He indorses all that General Smuts said concerning the liberality of South African banks, who. are only charging 6½ percent. He praises the action of the South African banks, and denounces that of the banking institutions here who are financing many important undertakings for us at 6 per cent.

Mr Blakeley:

– They are not charging the graziers 6 per cent.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is quite the fashion to look abroad and praise everything but what is taking place here. The banks are financing our wheat for 6 per cent, as against 61/2 per cent, which is being charged in South Africa, and which the honorable member praises with so much gusto.

Mr Blakeley:

– I praised General Smuts, who looked at the matter in a proper way.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member quoted the South African Prime Minister, and said that the test of that liberality was to be found in the fact that advances were being made at 61/2 per cent, interest. I say, in reply to that, that our wheat and other Government enterprises are being financed by the banks in Australia for 6 per cent.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– To what is that due?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I honestly believe it is due to the desire on the part of the banks to see this country through its troubles, and to ultimately secure the financial stability of this land. I know ofno other reason.

Mr. J. H.CATTS.TheCommonwealth Bank haskept the interest down;

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Commonwealth Bank of itself couldnot keep the interest down ; but it has added, its quota. We owe a great deal to the’ liberality of the banks of Australia for standing by us in our troubles andfinancing,our enterprises, tothe fullest extent.

Mr West:

– They are conserving their own interests..

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Of course they are. They may conserve their interests and atthesame timerenders great servicetothiscountry.

Mr.JamesPage- ifthe countrygoes down, thebanks goalso.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-If the country goes down we all go downin red raw ruin. Butthe country isnotgoingdown. We are- getting through our difficulties as Well asanycountry on God’s earth:

Mr Gregory:

– No!

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is my impression. I desireto say finally that all Ican do to assist those men who are struggling under adverse circumstances will be done. We are all in trouble, and may well sympathize with each other; without the gibe- about no ‘one wanting- -merely sympathy.Ofcourse, these people want cash if : they can get-it; but,unfortunately it “is- not available: Everyday I ambeingaskedfor millions.: Thereseemstobeadesireonthepartof everyState in theCommonwealthtorush to the Federal Government for financial assistance.

Mr.Watt. - Not every State, but a good many.

SirJOSEPHCOOK.- The honorable memberState hasdonevery well, as he knows.

Mr.Watt.-Yes, by itself.

SirJOSEPHCOOK.-And outofthe Commonwealth Government, too.

Mr.Watt. - No.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It-hashad a very good “ whack” out- of- everything that has been going..

Mr Watt:

– That is the only mistake tne right , honorable gentleman; has made in his. speech..

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-I only, wish to. sayaboutthe State, to. which the honor able member refers,thatitisaverysmall andavery easily governed:, little States Itiswell governed;, butitisveryhighly favoured;;andIamafraidthatthepeople ofitaresometimesapttooverlookthetre- mendousdifficulties involved ‘in the government’ and development of remote districtsof ‘ the big Statesof theUnion.

Mr.Blakeley. - Will the right honorable gentleman tell us what he is going to do about the request that- has- been made? SirJOSEPHCOOK.- I; told- the honorable member onFriday what I' was going to do. {: #subdebate-10-0-s8 .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER, (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES -- The honorable . gentleman's time.has expired. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -I want -to say, further, thatIthinkthemovingofthis motion:isanidlewasteoftime.Ithink that after; the arrangements- that . were made,andmystatementthatIwouldtry todowhatIcouldforthehonorable member, it is.a waste., of; time. for him;, to come here and:; ventilate! the, matter, to day;whento-morrowis Grievance Day. {: #subdebate-10-0-s9 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- I- have already -remindedthehonorable gentleman that his time has expired. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I shall do my bestforthese- people in the direction . I haveindicated! {: #subdebate-10-0-s10 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- If themovingofthemotion has any value, itliesinthefactthatitgivessomeevi- dence that the honorable member for Darling (Mr.Blakeley) - has.-, realized'' the great:importanceoftheprimaryindus- tries of this country.Onlyafew days ago the adjournment of the Housewas moved to discussthe. closing down of many of our mines, which has resulted in the 'turning., of many thousands- of men -out of . employment'. To-day . the. honorable member. directed -attention to the financial stringency, as . it affects, those concerned in the pastoral industry. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- The honorable member will admit' that" theyareveryclosely intertwined. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I think- that, to agreat extent, -their - difficulties- are due to the same conditions. The honorable member has informed: us- to-day that New South Wales has 14,000,000 less sheep than she had formerly, and; that, there, is at present a.low-.pricefor wool and a low priceforstockinQueensland.This should makeusrealisewhatweneed be very careful of the pathswetreadin future. We have been very carelessin the . past, . and, thereis grave. -.danger for the . future,, unless we -mend our ways. This is naturallyatimeoffinancial stringency, but, ashas been . pointed out "by the; '-Treasurer. **..(Sir joseph** Cook), that stringency-must . 'be accentuated by the class . of . legislation -introduced, into the New SouthWales Parliament only recently, and the threat that that legislation is to be brought, forward again. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- To what legislation does the honorable member refer?' {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Legislation affect ing the land laws. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- What is wrong with the land proposals! {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I could not quote from memory. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Then it is not fair of the honorable member to mention the matter if he cannot -substantiate what he says. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I read the Bill through very carefully. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- -Will- the honorable member tell' us something in . the Bill which' he can remember ? I do not think that he has ever read it. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The honorable member has no right to impute untruthfulness to me. It is a most discreditable exhibition on his part. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have asked the honorable member a -fair question. {: #subdebate-10-0-s11 .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Hon J M Chanter: -- I ask the honorable- member for Dampier to resume 'his seat. I appeal to honorable members generally to desist from interjection.Each honorable member has but fifteen -minutes' in which to address himself to the motion before the House, and he should, therefore, be heard in silence. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The Bill referred to was specifically brought under my notice when visiting the New South Wales Parliament in November last, and I was supplied with a copy of it. One particular phase of the legislation to which I refer is the compulsory resumption of land and payment for it in bonds. If land values decrease, honorable members must be aware that no financial institution, which hasthepeople'smoney,andnotitsown, tolend,willcontinuetoadvancethesame amountuponland. Mr.Blakeley.-Uponwhoseauthority doesthehonorable: member assume that laid; 'has depreciated: in value? Mr.GREGORY. -From. lettersIhave received',fromleaders of the pastoralists' andgraziers'organizationsinSydney, andfrom long conversations which, I. had inSydneyinNovember and December, I learnedthe 'difficulties confronting not. pnly graziers,but farmers, and. was informed that, there . hadbeen a . material depreciation of -land . values.. It is impossible for the Commonwealth Government to . take action in. this matter. Thefinancing of tie graziers- ofNew South Wales, . is ; absolutely and wholly a question- -for 'the- State Parliament. It would not come within our functions under the Constitution. Of course, I am aware that the Commonwealth Governmentmight lend money, if they had it,- to the New South Wales Government;, but the making of advances to individuals must be a State matter.. There is one thing about which we should he particularly careful when reference is made to the Commonwealth.Bank,, and that, isthat there- should . be no- endeavour to : bring political pressure to bear- upon the management of - that Bank. I should like, personally,, to, see some greater permanencyoftenuregivento the directorate of the Bank, but therecan be no doubt that, if it , is to be a success,, it must be completely free 'from political, influence is any shape or . form. Icannot entirely agree with the Acting Prime Minister **(Sir Joseph Cook)** concerning; the reason for the difficulties at present confronting the mining and grazing industries. Mr.Stewart: -They will be all right now we have the Tariff. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- There can be no doubt that many of our troubles to-day are due to economic as well as. to industrial conditions. Much of the trouble has been brought about by Government interference. I think that speeches made on this motion might well be made on the Tariff, as it might be pointed out that, by increasing the costof living through the Tariff, we are making it more difficult for those engaged in the mining, farming, and pastoral industries to carry on. For the purpose of discussion of the Tariff I brought here to-day some particulars, con- cerning the condition. ; of Argentina.That country has not to face : the difficulties confronting us, as itdid not assist in the war, and,- therefore, has not incurred a big war debt.The statement I have before me refers to the marvellousprogress whichArgentinahas made within the past few years. I quote the following:- The economicstate of Argentina is one of veritable prosperity, according ; to the recent report issuedby . Ernesto Tornquiest and Cia, bankers, of Buenos Aires. The abundance of cereal production, coinciding' with the worldwide scarcity,has- occasioned keen competition among the countries . interested, in. -securing . a portion of.it for themselves . Contrary, to the fears which, were at,. one timeentertained, neitherunfavorable' exchangerates nor high priceshave proved to be an obstacle in the way of the easy sale of the country's produce in general.In consequence,, large numbers -of ships have arrived, and continue to arrive, at the various ports, and the country's foreign trade hasbecome enormously active of late. . . Low exchange rates have favoured the cancellation of mortgages and other debts in Europe, and important quantitiesof bonds of the Argentine public debt, Cedulas of the NationalMortgage Bank, &c.,have been imported Furthermore, subscriptions to loans recently floated by the Governments of France and Italy reached very high sums in Argentina. In short, Argentina is passing through an' epoch of great prosperity, and one 'which, judging by all appearances, is likely to continue for some time. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Ever since I oan remember the bogy of the Argentine has been trotted out before us. We are not frightened of the Argentine. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The quotation I have made shows that that country is making wonderful progress. Mr.Corser. - In extraordinary circumstances {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Extraordinary circumstances which, inour case, have been destroyed by our economic and industrial conditions. I think we would be justified in giving serious consideration to bur present- industrial laws. When prices were soaring in this country, the workers, in my opinion, did not receive a fair share of the huge profits that were being made. I am anxious that they shall always receive fair play ; but, having regard to the wretched economic position with which we are faced - in view of the fact that mines are closing down, and that there will be no employment for men in the outback country, the existing condition of things must be changed. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Working . men are human - beings, and,like i other . -people, want, sotoe of the g'oysi and- pleasures of life.. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Thehonorable member is aware of the ' difficulties . under, which pastoralists in his'oVn State labour. Working men in the" out-back districts have riefne . df the opportunities for enjoyment that'- tiffed; in1 otir principal' cities. There are' feuV: privileges' for the inaii*' on the land. '.Taxation, both direct and indirect, is piled upon him. ' He' has the greatest difficulty in. ' obtaining labour, and his capacity to comply with arbitration awards is altogether different from that of the city business man. I' do hot propose to further delay the House. This debate, it seems to me, can . be of little value since the matters complained of do not come within the province of this ' Parliament. The Acting Prime . Minister **(Sir ' Joseph Cook)** has said that he would be pleased to consider proposals eoming from the Government of New South Wales, and' I hope he will see how far he can help to tide over the present unfortunate position in which the graziers now' find'.themselyes. It . may be possible, to do something to improve, the position, but the remedy lies wholly with the Government of' New South Wales,, , 'and cannot : , be brought about by any direct action on the part of this Parliament. {: #subdebate-10-0-s12 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP .- I do not think that any one will say that the remarks made by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory),** or the ' utterances of' the Acting Prime Minister **(Sir Joseph Cook),** are likely to help in any way the people on the land who, at the present time, are labouring under serious disabilities. -The honorable member for Dampier . indulged in one long tirade against the workers, of Australia, and was reminded by the honorable member for Maranoa **(Mr. James Page)** that the workers have the same - right to live as has any other section of thb community. When he asserted that the Land Bill introduced into the Parliament of New South Wales by the State Government had depreciated land values in that State, and was making the position of the . man on the land extremely difficult, I asked him to cite one clause inthemeasurewhich wascalculated to have such an effect. He was unable to do so, and I suggested that he had never seen theBill. I f eel sure that he has not seen it, or that if he has he has not carefully considered it. The honorable mem-, ber saidthatit provided for the compulsoryresumption of land, and that because, of that provision it had had the effect of depreciating land values in New South Wales. In Victoria, where there isnot a Labour Government in power,an Act providing for the compulsory resumption of estates hasbeen in operation for many years. When it was being passed there, was no talk on the part of the banking -institutions of calling upon land-holders . or any oneelse to reduce their overdrafts ; but because such a measure was introduced by a Labour Government in the New South Wales Parliament, the honorable member urges that it has brought about all the difficulties under which land-holders in that State are labouringto-day. We know, as a fact, that it has not done so. The Acting Prime Minister(Sir Joseph Cook) also urged that the man on the land in Queensland and New South Wales had been subjected to the most unfortunate conditions because of legislation passed by State Labour Governments.It is to be regretted that the right honorable gentleman was unable to discuss this question without introducing party politics. He might, have well been expected topropound some scheme to assist the people on the land who are in such difficulties today. Unfortunately he made no such attempt, but approached the consideration of the question from a purely partypolitical stand-point. The right honorable gentleman also made the most extraordinary statement that land values in New South Wales were higher twelve months ago than they are to-day. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- That is quite incorrect. The resumption of land for soldier settlement has actually increased prices. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I shall not saythat the Acting PrimeMinister made the statement knowing it to be false, but it certainly is wholly opposed to fact. Land values in New South Wales, today are as high as they have been within my knowledge for the last fifteen years. If the right honorable gentleman and the honorable member for Dampier really believe that land values in the Mother State have very greatly depreciated, I invite them to seek to purchase land there. If they do,they will speedily discover that they are mistaken. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- If land-owners are having such a bad time, as we are asked to believe, then values must soon decrease. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That is an entirely different matter. The honorable member is looking at the question from the right point of view. If as a result of the most disastrous, drought ever experienced in New South Wales landowners there are in difficulties to-day, and if, because of those difficulties, they are in many pases forced off the land, values will certainly decrease. The present situation is due to natural causes, and what I might describe as "bad luck," rather than to legislation. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- Those natural causes have been operating during the last three years, and in that way land values have been depreciated. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Quite so. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- But the honorable member said a few moments ago that land values in New South Wales to-day were as high as they had been for many years. {: #subdebate-10-0-s13 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Yes; because land-owners who have had to fight drought conditions have not yet had pressure brought to bear upon them by the banks. They are struggling under serious handicaps due to the natural causes to which I have referred, and if the financial institutions call upon them to reduce their overdrafts before they can get on their feet again, there certainly will be a depreciation in land values. Bad seasons and not bad legislation are responsible for the present situation. As a matter of fact, the Land Bill to. which the honorable member for Dampier; referred was not passed. Ito was withdrawn. That Bill was capable of much service, and I trust that itwill be improved and re-introduced, in the hope of doing something in the direction of cutting up large estates of 50,000 and 60,000 acres and over, and thus giving an opening to people who are now looking for land in vain. There was one other statement made by the Acting Prime Minister in regard to the assistance which he says is always given by the privatebanking institutions of . the eountry. . -He- told, us that . the (pastoralists and 'Others' : -have . much to thank the private Ibanks for.; ibut the1 right honorable gentleman did . not give- -credit where credit is. due, 3?he interest charges -for 4he last few years.have bean comparatively light, owing, ito a large- . extant, to the -steadying influence of "the Commonwealth Bank. Before, that Bank- was instituted, -the interest charges- were -infir nitely higher than they are show.. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- Why 'does theCommonwdaslth Bank not- -assist these land-'hoMers now! {: #subdebate-10-0-s14 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- As already pointed -out, the Commonwealth Bankhas done a great deal, but it cannot do everything.It could, however,be made capable of doing a great deal more if it were administered by someother Government than the present Government. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- Political influence! {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Not at all., The Commonwealth Bank should be capable of exercising all the functions of a truly national bank, functions which 'it does npt now exercise. There is too much . political control brought to bear, and this prevents the Bank doing what a national bank should. Too much thought is . given by the Government to fhe protection of the . private banking companies, 'and, because df that, the Commonwealth Bank cannot perform its proper . functions. . If it were allowed to perform these functions, the . pastoralists and others on the land to-day would not be experiencing their present difficulties. The national credit of this country could be used to a greater extent 'than : it is ; it wasso used during - the war period, and it <can . be msed in . any -.time of national difftoulty. The war "was -a 'national trouble, and, had it continued, we should have had - to rely on our national -credit for years to come. 'It is a hackneyed, but /nevertheless a true -saying, that the primary producers are the "backbone of the country " ; and now they are in difficulties. If these producers suffer, the whole country suffers, and the present is a time when the national credit should be used to relieve them by means of -the National Bank. Perhaps it would be too harsh to say that the Acting Prime Minister is preventing that being done by the Bank; but there is no doubt that the right ; honorable;gentleman -in -bis position asTreasurer -could do something to assist it . in vusing the '-national 'credit -.to a' greater -extent. I have several letters in my ^possession [from people - on . the land inNew SouthWales,.. 'and they are typical of -.hundreds- referred 'to by the honorable member forDarling **(Mr. Blakeley).** and others. It will be : admitted that the . position of . New South Wales is exceptional. During -the : 1am four "years; 'that ; State has : su'ffered 'more from drought and bad 'seasons . than any other State -of ..the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- What is -to prevent the State Government ofNew South -Wales giving those land-holders relief? **Mr. PARKER** MOLONEY.Comparatively speaking, it is only the other day that' theState Government did come to the assistance of the land-holders ; but the . powers df a State Government 'are nothing, in comparison with the. powers df the Commonwealth Government, As a matter of fact, the State Government borrowed and spent £2,00'0,00.0 on rthe relief of the land-holders, . £1,000,000 as a direct contribution, and another £1,000*000 in building silos. That has been done by the present. State Government during its short : periodof office. ; and it 'is a record unequalled by any other' Government in Australia. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable members time has expired. Mr.CUNNINGHAM (Gwydir) [4:28]. - Honorable members who have spoken in opposition to any action being . taken by the Commonwealth Government do not, in my opinion, take a broad enough view of the position. Those honorable members seem to think that the difficulties referred to are confined 'to New South Wales, but there is evidence that they affect Queensland, as well as certain portions ofVictoria. -There is no doubt, that the State -Governments can 'alford a certain amount of 'relief, and. "the . New South Wales Government has promised to do so, hut this industry is a national one, extending all over Australia, and under the circumstances I submitthat it is the duty of this Government to take steps to safeguard it. The Commonwealth Government very properly has control of the defence of the nation, because such a matter- cannot properly be managed by the States individually, and on the Commonwealth Government falls the duty of safeguarding the interests of the nation. I submit, therefore, as a fair analogy, that when war is being made, as it were, on a section of our primary producers engaged in a national industry, the Commonwealth Government ought to come to their protection and aid. We have been told that the banks have gone as far as they can - that they are business institutions, and have to safeguard themselves. I remind honorable members, however, that the private banks enjoy certain privilege's under the laws of this country, and, moreover, that when money is plentiful we find bank managers approaching producers and urging them to go into propositions in order to absorb bank funds that would otherwise be idle. Many men have been induced by bank managers in that way to go into certain propositions, and now that the period of depression has come upon us, some of the banks are suffering from cold feet, and are doing much to injure the credit of this country by intimating to the landholders that their credits are not good, or that they have to reduce their overdrafts. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- It may be something else besides cold feet. {: #subdebate-10-0-s15 .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM:
GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES -- Yes; some say that this is a deliberate attempt to discredit Labour Governments, and it is significant that this move was first made in New South Wales, a State which has as good credit as has any other in the Commonwealth. Still, it is there that we find a great move made to order men to reduce their overdrafts. In order to meet this order, many of the men are forced to dispose of what I call their reproductive capital. A man may have 2,000 acres of land worth £3,000, with £1,000 worth of sheep - a flock that be has, perhaps, spent years and years in breeding up to a certain pitch of perfection. When he is ordered to reduce his overdraft, he has to sell that flock. Therefore, to reduce his overdraft, he leaves hisproperty bare of stock, and, consequently, bare of his reproductive capital. Land and grass, without stock to grow wool or increase in weight to be sold as fats, are of no use. The reason for the attitude of the banks is beyond my comprehension. They stood at the back of the importers and paid their debts overseas, as we know, because the papers are full of it. When these men ordered ten times the amount of stuff they required, and large quantities were unexpectedly delivered, the banks stepped in and met their debts overseas. The papers went so far as to say that the banks should haveshut down on the importers six or twelve months be- . fore they did. It was only when these menhad drifted into such a position that the banks saw no chance of their paying their debts, that they shut down on them, and refused further credit. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- I am afraid the honorable member is making a great mistake there. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- My information came from reliable sources, aswell as the daily press that supports the present Federal Government. If I am wrong, the honorable member's press supporters are wrong also. It seems to me that the action of the banks is designed to crucify the country at the expense of the cities. I am one of those on the land, and am continually receiving letters from men who have been forced to sell their live stock. If this policy is persisted in the Government will find big areas of land in New South Wales, as well as in other portions of Australia, without stock on them. The present holders will have no incomes during the next twelve months, and, consequently, large amounts of revenue will be lost both to the State and Federal Treasuries. Blood cannot be got out of a stone, and if a man has no income, he pays no income tax. If the banks persist in their attitude, and do not call their dogs off, many of these men will be forced off their holdings, and if themortgagees foreclose, the properties will be sold. The bank in each case is; of course, covered, because it has advanced only about one-third of the value of the property, and, consequently, will get its money out of it; but what becomes of the man who is pushed out with nothing? He joins the ranks of the unemployed, and drifts into the city, and then there is a clamour for the raising of State loans in order to provide employment. The banks themselves will buy up many of these properties after the occupiers have been forced out. In the past the banks have put up " dummies " to buy in properties of that kind. I have known cases where men were forced out by the banks, and the " dummies " put up by the banks bought their properties. The banks, using their position under the laws of the country, have been able to acquire properties in that way at less than their true value, and to thrust out many a pioneer with his swag on his back after all his years of labour. "We on this side take up the position that it is the duty of the Government to see that no "man is pushed out of his home when his position is not ' his fault. Honorable members opposite may say that that is not a business proposition. They are full of praise to-day for the gigantic harvest wo have had in New South Wales, which brought into that State approximately between £35,000,000 and £40,000,000 ; but when the State financed those men, when it gave them seed wheat and orders on the storekeepers for groceries and horse feed, that was not a business proposition either. Many of those men were walking about waiting for the storekeepers to sell up their horses and drays and farming machinery. I know one farmer in Narrabri who told me that fifteen months ago he did not know where to look for his next month's credit, and yet to-day he stands behind £1,500 worth of wheat. Giving him assistance was not a business proposition, and no bank in the world would have ..touched him at that particular period, but Governments are not like banks. We must not look at these matters from the business point of view from which a bank looks at it. The function of a Government is to protect its people, and if the present Government fails to realize its duty in that regard the alternative is that these men will be pushed out, and will join the army of unemployed. If that is allowed to happen, this Government will have neglected its duty. I was surprised to hear the Treasurer adopting such a helpless attitude as he took up to-day. One would think that his hands were tied, and that he was powerless ; yet men who are considered' to know finance and to understand the Constitution of the Commonwealth say that it is the duty of the Commonwealth Government to stand behind the men on whose behalf I am speaking. The Government is the controller of finance in Australia. The Commonwealth Government controls the note issue, which is one of the main factors of the finance of the nation. If the Commonwealth Bank cared to take up the accounts of these men it could increase its business three or fourfold with no risk, and acquire their business for all time. It was to protect the people that this Bank was instituted. It is the duty of the Commonwealth Government to stand behind these men in their period of depression. They look to the Government, as the controller of finance, to perform its duty to the people of the community, What else are Governments for, if it is not to safeguard the interests of the people? It is a poor consolation, to the man who is pushed out to be told that the Commonwealth Treasurer sympathizes with him. The Treasurer said plainly and emphatically to-day, "I cannot help these men." We say that a Treasurer who adopts an attitude of impotence, who says that he can do nothing, has failed to realize his functions as a member of the governing body which represents the people of Australia. One honorable member, and, in fact, the Treasurer himself, decried the credit of these people by saying that the lands which they occupy are not so valuable to-day because of certain proposed legislation. That is all a myth, because if the Land Bill referred to had been passed it would have applied only to estates of over £30,000 in value. The men for whom we are fighting have assets far below that in value. They are men with £2,000 or £3,000 up to £8,000 or £10,000 worth of property and plant. A man with £30,000 worth of land would probably hold, with land and stock together, assets in the neighbourhood of £50,000 or £60,000. It will be found that none of the men quoted by the honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley)** hold asset3 going above £10,000 or £15,000, and the great bulk of them possess far below that figure, In fact, most of them come within the limit of £5,000, which is only one- sixth of the estate value which it was intended to affect by the passage through the New South Wales Parliament of the Bill in question. For a man in a responsible public position to decry any State is traitorous to the Commonwealth itself. These land values have not decreased. A member sold land in New South Wales only a few days ago at remarkable prices. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- At what prices? {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- Prices far above any placed on the land mentioned here this afternoon. I understand that grazing land was sold, for £7 10s. an acre. When prices like that are obtained, there can be no depreciation of values. Prices may have gone down a little, but not to such an extent that the banks have to force men to meet their overdrafts by sacrificing their stock. Men who are forced to sell their stock under these circumstances will be ten times worse off than they were while the stock were on their land. I am of opinion that the banks are not disinterested in this action. They hold large areas of grazing land, and during the drought did not spend money on saving their stock. They preferred to let their stock die, and to depress the stock market, so that they might restock at the expense of thesmall land-holders, whom they are dragooning. I hope that the Commonwealth Ministry will realize it3 duty under these circumstances, and that, if the Treasurer says that he can do nothing, this Parliament will insist that he shall, if necessary, use all the resources of the Commonwealth to save these men from being forced to join the great army of unemployed. Of what use is it to bring thousands of immigrants here to be put on the land if our own people are being turned off it? If our own men cannot make a living on it, no new-chum immigrant will do so. If this Government does not do its duty now, I trust that the electors will call it to account when they have the opportunity to review the work of this Parliament. lt is the duty of the Government to stand behind the men on the land when the banks are threatening to turn them off. The banks have been well paid for whatever they may have done for the Government in the past, and their dividends were never greater. {: #subdebate-10-0-s16 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield -- It is not fair that a wrong impression should go from this House as to the function of the National Government and the National Parliament in regard to the subject discussed in this debate. It is not the function of the National Parliament to do what it is said should be done; the business is one for the State Parliaments to deal with. Every man in this House may sympathize with the producers- {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- They will be glad of your sympathy! {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: -- Yes; and. they would be glad of honesty. The honorable member is the last who should have made that interjection. As he has been reminded this afternoon, he is the president of a big organization that is increasing tremendously the cost of shearing sheep. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That statement is a reflection on the Arbitration Court. Mr.RI CHARD FOSTER. - Last week, the honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley),** when moving the adjournment of the House to discuss the position of the copper market, said that his great union would not, under any conditions, surrender a single penny in "wages. {: .speaker-JPV} ##### Mr Blakeley: -- Exactly. We say, " Abide by the Arbitration Court's decisions." {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: -- The honorable member knows that the President of an Arbitration Court - if any such Court which has been extreme can be so named - has advised the miners to accept a reduction of 20 per cent. If what is now proposed were done, where should we end? The conditions that have been spoken of by the honorable member and others prevail, not in the wool industry alone, but in every other industry, and are likely to be acute for some time to come. It has been insinuated that the banks are acting cruelly; but, knowing something of the actions of the banks towards the industries of this country, and particularly towards our primary industries, I maintain that we in Australia have banks which are as well conducted and as generous as any in the world. During the past few years the generosity of our banks has been emphasized. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- We may thank the Commonwealth Bank for keeping, the others up to their obligations, then. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: -- The Commonwealth Bank has not done -so. It has done what the other ' banks have done; Had it not done that? it would not have been so successful as it has been from its inception. I do not want the impression that might be caused by the remarks of some speakers about the .banks to go abroad as the truth, because it is not. I know what have been the misfortunes of the people of New South Wales during the past two years, and I sympathize with those who have suffered; but, everything considered, the position of our producers is, generally speaking, satisfactory. Recently, in conversation, one of the biggest machinery men in Australia told me that, taking the Commonwealth as a whole, 90 per cent, of the acceptances for machinery falling due two or three' weeks ago were met. I spoke of the misfortunes of the men in New South Wales, due to the drought, and his reply was that the way in which that 'State, as well as the others, had come up to the mark in its payments was amazing. If anything is to be done for the relief of producers in New South Wales, it should be done by the New South Wales Government. The National Government should tell the people, in unmistakable language, that this is not its business, and that it does not propose to follow a dangerous path. This Government will have enough to do to pay its own debts ; indeed, it "will have to strain its resources to the utmost, now and for some time to come, to meet its own engagements. {: #subdebate-10-0-s17 .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE:
Calare .- Although the Acting Prime Minister **(Sir Joseph Cook)** and the Deputy Leader of the Country party **(Mr. Gregory)** have said that this debate is a waste of time, and that the subject that is being discussed should not have been brought before the Chamber, I hold "that no more important subject has been discussed here, during my term, at any rate. Realizing, as I do, the position of the graziers of Australia, and particularly of New South Wales, I am surprised that any member should say that the adjournment should not have been moved to discuss this subject, and to impress on the Government that it is its duty to come to the assistance of the men on the land. As I am particularly interested in the subject, I have listened attentively to all the speeches that have been delivered during the debate, and paid more than usual attention to that of the Leader of the Government. But of what did it consist? The right honorable gentleman said that he sympathized with the graziers in the present crisis, but that he could not, and would not, do anything to assist them. The rest of his speech was an attack on the Labour Governments of New South Wales and Queensland. He endeavoured to make party capital at the expense of the graziers of Australia, not caring how many men might be forced off their holdings and on to the labour market, so long as he could do that. In speaking of the attitude of the Labour Government of New 'South Wales to the land-owners of the State, he carefully refrained from mentioning that last year the Government did what no other Government has done:; it borrowed £2,000,000 to assist necessitous farmers, with the result that the acreage under wheat was increased, and has -given a generous return. That Government last year, by its action, stabilized the man on the.-> land ; and actions speak louder than' words. Members opposite have' spoken of the generosity of the banks, and have said that they did not believe that the banks were forcing men off. the land. They added that the banks themselves are having rather a bad time, and, being short of money, are asking their customers to reduce their overdrafts. I find from a report in the *Argus* that the net profits of the Bank of New South Wales for the last six months amounted to £403,932, as compared with a net profit for the previous six months of £364,219. It would appear, therefore, that while the Bank had an exceptionally prosperous time- in the previous six months, it did much better during the half-year that has just closed, a dividend of 10 per cent.,, as well as an 'extraordinary bonus of 10s: per share, being paid. Notwithstanding this, the Government and members of tho alleged Country party have been trying, to persuade us that the banks have been generous in their treatment of graziers and land-owners generally, and that they are having rather a bad time, themselves. This, of .course, is not so. A few weeks ago honorable members had an opportunity to discuss the financial difficulties of the wool-growers, owing to the -fact that they are. unable .to market their wool. That debate in itself was an admission that the graziers' position is a very serious one indeed. Figures relating, -to the stock returns 'in New South Wales show that at the present time there are only 25,000,000 sheep .in that State - the smallest number recorded during the last forty-six years. The land, since the drought, is flowing with milk and honey, so far as .grass is concerned, but the graziers are unable to stock up. Many, indeed, are being forced to sell in order to carry on. Speaking with a positive knowledge of this, subject, I can inform honorable members that three weeks ago 'we sent a couple of hundred sheep to the Sydney market, the consignment including 100 crossbred wethers, well grown and in prime condition ; and 90 lambs, exceptionally well grown and very fat. For these we obtained a net return of only Ils. per head, whereas a couple of years ago the wethers would have realized from £2 10s. to £3 per head in the Homebush market. "This proves conclusively that some graziers are in financial difficulties, and are being obliged to sacrifice their stock in order to meet the claims of the banks. It is of no use for the Treasurer to say that the banks are lending money on exceptionally cheap and easy terms. Speaking again from personal experience, I can inform honorable members that I am paying *7* and 8 per cent, for my accommodation from the bank, so honorable members will have some idea of the real position and the so-called " generosity " on the part of the hanks. I submit, therefore, that it is the duty of the Government to come to the assistance of the graziers by enlarging the powers and extending the functions of the Commonwealth Bank, if necessary, so. that the Bank may take over graziers' accounts and finance them until the wool and stock market is stabilized, thus preventing the ruin which must inevitably come to. a large number of land-owners unless something is done to help them. Every honorable member, I think; realizes . that the most important industry in Australia is that of woolgrowing, and because of its precarious position at present, some- definite action should be taken to prevent 'the graziers from being 'forced to realize on their stock or sacrifice their land. *Debate interrupted under standing order 119.* {: .page-start } page 8753 {:#debate-11} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-11-0} #### REPATRIATION DEPARTMENT Regulations - Living Allowance {: #subdebate-11-0-s0 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the Repatriation Commission power and authority to interpret the regulations under A.S.R.A. of 1920, and to .issue such interpretations in .the .form of rulings and written instructions for the guidance of State Repatriation Boards and Deputy Commissioners *t* 1. Are State Boards and Deputy Commissioners bound by such rulings and instructions? 2. Are such rulings and instructions issued confidentially ? {: type="a" start="i"} 0. If not, why are they not obtainable from the Government Printer, in view of the expenditure of public money which is involved? 3. If they are issued confidentially, why are they so issued, in view of the expenditure of public money which is involved? 4. Are such rulings subject to Ministerial sanction and/or confirmation, or are they issued on the absolute authority of the Commission? 5. Will the Minister lay on the table, of the House copies of all rulings and instructions issued by the Commission, with those dealing with the question of living allowance specified in a covering reference sheet for the convenience of honorable members? 6. Is the devising of these rulings and instructions the work of any individual member of the Commission, or is it the work of all three members? 7. If it is the work of an individual member, what is the member's name? {: #subdebate-11-0-s1 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
for Mr. RODGERS · NAT -- The replies are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. Yes. 2. These rulings and instructions are issued only for the guidance of those who are administering departmental benefits and activities. 4 and 5. See 3. 3. They are issued on the authority of the Commission. 4. Yes, copies will be prepared and issued' asrequested. 5. The devising of these rulings and instructions is the responsibility of the Commission as. such. 6. See 8. {: #subdebate-11-0-s2 .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE:
for Mr. Lazzarini asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, *upon notice -* >Will he inform the House, with regard to the reductions in the living allowances to soldiers' widows and mothers, whether this is being done by the Commission for Repatriation acting on its own initiative, or on instructions from the Minister? **Mr. GROOM** (for **Mr. Rodgers).-** The reply is as follows : - >The payment to soldiers' widows are made as directed in the first schedule of the Australian Soldiers Repatriation Act of 1920, and in the case of all widows with dependent children they represent an increase in the total amount (pension and living allowance combined) paid under the old Act. The pensionpaid soldiers' widowed mothers is also provided under the first schedule of the amending Act, which further prohibits the granting of pensions to the children of such widowed mothers unless they were dependent ' upon the deceased soldier (see section 22, " Dependants " (el) and the third schedule, " Other. Dependants ") . The Act of 1920 was designed to merge pension and living allowance in the one payment - the pension. The only variation made by the Government has been in the direction of increasing the benefits provided by the Act. {: .page-start } page 8754 {:#debate-12} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-12-0} #### GERMAN" REPARATION AND INDEMNITY {: #subdebate-12-0-s0 .speaker-K7L} ##### Mr STORY:
for Mr. Higgs asked the Acting Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What are the Allies' terms and conditions of reparation to which Germany has agreed? 1. What is Australia's share of the indemnity? 2. When will Australia receive same, or a portion thereof? {: #subdebate-12-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The information in possession of the Government in respect of this matter is not quite complete. Inquiries have been made by cablegram of the British Government, but a reply has not yet been received. The honorable member will be furnished with a reply to his question as soon as the particulars are available. {: .page-start } page 8754 {:#debate-13} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-13-0} #### ANGLO-JAPANESE TREATY {: #subdebate-13-0-s0 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
for Mr. J. H. Catts asked the Acting Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In regard to the review of the AngloJapanese Treaty at the June Imperial Conference, does the Australian. Government subscribe to the Hay doctrine of Chinese integrity and independence or not? 1. Will the Government make representations to the Prime Minister of Australia that, if Australia is in any way a party to a renewal of the Anglo-Japanese Treaty, it should be speci ally provided that there shall be no secret clauses or understandings such as were revealed in connexion with the AngloFrench relations in 1911, 1913) and 1914? {: #subdebate-13-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The reply is as follows : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes, as far as possible. I refer the honorable member to clause 6 of the preamble to the present treaty, which provides for "the preservation of the common interests of all Powers in China by insuring the independence and integrity of the Chinese Empire, and the principle of equal opportunities for 'the commerce and industry of all nations in China." 1. Both Great Britain and Japan are bound by the Covenant of the League of Nations, Article 18 of which requires that " every treaty or international engagement entered into hereafter by any member of the League shall be forthwith registered with the Secretariat, and shall as soon as possible be published by it. No such treaty or international engagement shall be binding until so registered." There is, therefore, no need to make the representations suggested. {: .page-start } page 8754 {:#debate-14} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-14-0} #### QUEENSLAND PINEAPPLE INDUSTRY {: #subdebate-14-0-s0 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND asked the Treasurer, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the State Supervising Officer favorably reported on the pineapple pack in Queensland? 1. Will the Minister state what firms in Queensland received assistance from the Commonwealth; what was the quantity of. fruit canned; and what was the amount advanced to each firm for this. season's pack? {: #subdebate-14-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The reply is as follows : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Queensland Government controls the work, and the pack is being canned wholly under the direction of inspectors appointed by the State Supervising Officer, who prescribed a standard for the pack. The finished article should, therefore, be of very high quality. 1. Quantities canned and advanced to date are: - {: .page-start } page 8754 {:#debate-15} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-15-0} #### KING AND EMPIRE ALLIANCE Loyalty Demonstration {: #subdebate-15-0-s0 .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE:
for Mr. Blakeley asked the Acting Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >Did the King and Empire Alliance hold a loyalty demonstration in the Sydney Domain on the 8th May, 1921, and were expenses amounting to approximately £70 in connexion therewith paid by the Commonwealth Works and Railways Department? {: #subdebate-15-0-s1 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
NAT -- Some work was supervised by the Works Branch in Sydney under a misapprehension as to the origin of the request, but all expense was borne by the King and Empire Alliance. {: .page-start } page 8755 {:#debate-16} ### COMMONWEALTH WAR HISTORY {: #debate-16-s0 .speaker-L0I} ##### Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT -- With reference to the inquiry from the honorable member for South Sydney **(Mr. Riley)** as to when the history of the war which is being written by Captain Bean will be issued, I desire to inform him that the national history consists of twelve volumes, six of which are being written by **Mr. Bean,** and five by other writers, while one will contain a collection of official photographs. **Mr. Bean** is editing the whole series, and assisting to organize the medical, regimental, and other histories as well. The first of **Mr. Bean's** volumes, dealing with Gallipoli, will be published in a few weeks. Of the other volumes, that dealing with Palestine, written by **Mr. Gullett,** is complete, except for revision, annotation, indexing, and a few of the maps, and will be issued within a few months. The text of those dealing withthe Flying Corps, written by **Mr. Cutlack,** and the Effort of Australia, by **Mr. Heney,** is nearing completion. The volume of photographs is being edited, and will probably be published shortly after that dealing with Palestine. It is hoped that Volumes VII. to XII. will be ready for the printer this year. Volumes II. to VI. will be issued at intervals thereafter. The intervals are difficult to estimate. {: .page-start } page 8755 {:#debate-17} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-17-0} #### TARIFF In Committee of Ways and Means: Consideration resumed from 27th May *(vide* page 8735) : division vi. - metals and machinery.* *Motive Power, Engine Combinations, and Power Connexions are duitable under their respective headings when not integral parts of machines, machinery, or machine tools. Item 136- Iron and Steel - {: type="A" start="A"} 0. Pig iron per ton - British, 20s. ; intermediate, 30s.; general, 40s. {: #subdebate-17-0-s0 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- Honorable members are aware that I have always advocated the nationalization of the iron and steel industry in Australia, but as it has been proved over and over again that the Commonwealth has no power under the Constitution to do that, we have encouraged the establishment, in two instances, of big iron and steel works in the State of New South Wales. Many thousands of people are employed directly and indirectly by these works, and my concern is as to their continued employment and the conditions under which they are working. I find that since this schedule was placed on the table of the House there have been considerable changes, such as increases in the price of coal, increases in harbor dues, and increases under Wages Boards findings, so that the commercial values of the duties set out on most of the lines produced by the two big establishments in New South Wales have been, in some instances, reduced by 70 to 80 per cent., and in other cases completely obliterated. For instance, the value of the duty on pig iron has been reduced by 70 per cent. Instead of being 20s. British, 30s. intermediate, and 40s. general, it is 6s. British, 16s. intermediate, and 25s. general. The same thing applies right down the list of similar items. Recently, there has been a considerable increase in the importation of steel and iron, presumably from Belgium, but it is questionable whether the imported steel has not really originated in Germany, where, as I shall show, the wages paid are exceedingly low in comparison with those paid in Australia. This material has been landed in Australia and sold at about; £10 per ton less than the price of the local production, and if this importation continues, it is obvious that it will be utterly impossible for our own works to compete. The value of the duty on ingots, blooms, &c., has been reduced in the manner I have already described from 32s. British, to 10s. 7d. I do not propose to weary honorable members by instituting a detailed comparison in regard to the duties under the intermediate or general columns of the Tariff. It is sufficient to say that the reductions are proportionate throughout. The reduced value of the 44s. duty on bar, rod, angle, and tee steel is minus 2s. 8d. That is to say, the duty has been practically wiped out altogether. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I wish it were. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Then the honorable member wishes that the industry were wiped out, because if he wipes out the duty the industry must go. The value of the duty on wire rods has been reduced from 44s. to lis. 2d. ; on rails weighing 50 lbs. per yard and over, from 35s. to minus 2s. 3d..; on rails weighing less than 50 lbs. per yard, from 45s. to minus 5s. 5d. ; on fishplates,, tieplates, and rods from 48s. to minus 12s. 6d. - here again the duty has been wiped out completely - and on rolled iron or steel beams, channels, joists, &c, from 48s. to 10s. 9d. In 1919 the average wage earned in the Broken Hill Iron and Steel Works, now employing 5,670 hands, was £14 lis. 7d. per employee per month.; in 1920 it had risen to £18 ls. Sd. per employee per month, while the average wage per employee per mouth for 1921, including the application of. Judge Beeby's recommendation on a forty-four hour week, is £22 12s. lOd. The 40,000 employees of the Phoenix Company of Germany earned, in 1913-14, on an average per employee per month £7 - that is the competition we have to face - -but with the depreciation of the mark, although there has been an apparent increase in the wages of the company generally, the monthly average wage per employee was £5 6s. 10d. in 1919. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is the equivalent in sterling. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- I have no desire to weary honorable members with a statement explaining the variation in the value of the mark. We are also faced with the competition from America, where there have .been certain reductions in wages agreed to. The *Iron Age,* of the 6th January, 1921, contains the following : - >The Bethelem Steel Company has announced a reduction of wages at the South Bethelem plant of from 10 to 20 per cent., effective on the 16th January. The announcement was made following a joint meeting of the company officials and representatives of the workmen under the employees' representation plan in effect at the plant. The reduction is similar to the one being made at the Lebanon plant. A 10 to 20 per cent, redaction is also announced for the Sparrow's Point plant, effective on the same date. The company employs from 5,000 to 6,000 men under normal conditions. In Great Britain, we find considerable reductions have been made in the wages paid in the iron trade. The *Engineering and Industrial Management* of the 27th January, 1921, gives the information that the Furness Miners Union had 'agreed to accept a reduction, in wages from £1 2s. Sd. to 19s. 7d. per day, and that the iron ore miners in Lancashire had agreed to accept a reduction in wages of about '3s. per day. The same publication in .its issue of the 10th March, 1921, contained the announcement that the Cleveland ironstone miners had given notice that the 2s. advance per day granted in November, the war wage of 3s. per day, and the Sankey payment of 2s. per day shift would be terminated on the 31st March. The patent fuel export trade manufacturers applied in January for a reduction of 20 per cent, in wages, and the iron and steel employers of Sheffield gave notice in March that a reduction of *7* per cent, was proposed for men working in rolling mills and forges. The motor waggon works at Sandbach were to be re-opened on condition that the men accepted a- .one-sixth wage reduction. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- There has also been a big reduction in the price of coal in Belgium and America. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Yes. Where the whole of the requirements of a. steel works are supplied, there has been a considerable reduction in the price of the fuel. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is at Pittsburg. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- And in. other places, I believe. With a view to keeping going an industry which now exists in Australia, I would suggest an increase on particular items of duty which would be some equivalent to the handicap imposed upon the local manufacturers by competition from abroad. No country ever became a great nation that did not produce iron and steel as a key or base for other industries. If the industry for which I am speaking had not been established in Australia during the war, the Commonwealth would have paid for rails and other materials locally produced an extra £6,000,000, if we compare Australian prices with British prices, or an extra £4,000,000 if the comparison be with the prices in other parts of the world. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We would have paid considerably more, because the figures which the honorable member is quoting relate only to the output of the Broken Hill Company's works. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- That is so. I am speaking only of the industry in my own electorate. When the coal export trade was dislocated, the iron and steel works at Newcastle and Lithgow saved the situation. They were able to not only manufacture rails for State Governments, and to produce iron and steel for other purposes, but they also sent rails to France to help the French and British Governments in the prosecution of the war. It was a fine thing for this country that works which had been brought into being at practically a moment's notice should develop so rapidly as to be able to, not only supply Australia, but to also contribute material help in the great struggle in Europe. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I believe they also sent to England steel for munitions. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- They did. To-day we find war-worn countries making efforts to re-establish their iron and steel works. The people of Belgium are crying out for protection against the German steel that is being sent to England and re-exported to Belgium. The following cablegram, published in the *Iron Age of* 6th January, throws light on the position in France : - French Duties Re-established. Washington, 4th January A cablegram from Commercial Attache W. C. Huntington, Paris, states that a French decree of 18th December, published in the *J ournalOfficiale* for 27th December, reestablishes with the corresponding coefficient the import duty on rails, fishplates, bridges, and parts thereof, which was suspended by decree of 30th November, 1914, and 3rd March, 1915, in cases where such materials were required for repairs on railways, &c., necessary for national defence. The duty on heavy structural iron and steel is 12 francs per 100 kilos., with a coefficient of 3, which makes the duty now in force 36 francs per 100 kilos., or 3 dollars 15 cents per 100 lbs. - £14 2s. 6d. conversion on standard value of France. Both Belgium and France are trying, by heavy imposts, to re-establish their works for the production of iron and steel; and the Australian duties in relation to this basic industry are little more than revenue duties in comparison with the Tariffs in other parts of the world. {: #subdebate-17-0-s1 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Some of the smaller lines may be. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- They may be admitted free to-day, but they will not be whenin dustries for their manufacture are established. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Quite recently we read that England is paying attention to these basic industries by imposing, in some instances, duties of from 70 to 80 per cent. For many years this Parliament discussed how the iron and steel industry could be established in Australia, and ultimately it was established; and we are in the fortunate position of know-' ing that our iron and steel works,' although young, are making good progress and developing on a firm basis. The iron and steel works in my own electorate employ directly about 6,000 people; and it is hard to estimate the number of people who are indirectly dependent upon them. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The total of 6,000 could be multiplied by three or four. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Take into consideration also the subsidiary industries that are collecting around the mother industries for the utilization of the smaller sizes of steel. To-day, when all other nations are trying to rebuild their iron and. steel industries, we should take steps to protect and foster ours until they are on a sound footing. I have shown the necessity for those industries, and how much they have already meant to the Commonwealth. Australia is an island continent, and if it were at any time cut off from the help of the Motherland, our people would be powerless to defend themselves if we were without steel works to produce the material for our armaments. A well-established iron and steel industry is the greatest essential to a country that desires to be self-contained in respect of defence requirements. We feel safer when we know that, in addition to having the finest men in the world, we are able to arm them within the Commonwealth. I do not intend to say anything further upon the first of these items, but on later items I shall move that the duties be increased by an average of 50 per cent. Even if that increase is made, the local products will not be on as good a commercial level as they were when the Tariff was first laid upon the table, because some of the old duties have been wiped out altogether, and in respect of other items the effective duties have been reduced by from 70 to 80 per cent. Taking the first line as a guide, in which the Tariff rates are set down respectively at 20s., 30s., and 40s., I would like to see increases amounting respectively to 30s., 45s., and 60s. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Free Traders would take a fit. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- If they compared those rates with existing Tariffs in other parts of the world where huge steel and iron industries flourish, they would be impressed by the fact that my proposal is a relatively low one. And it is so, judged by the standard of the Tariffs which were imposed in order to establish works of magnitude in the countries indicated. In my electorate, more than £4,000,000 has been invested in the iron and steel works. There are at present about 6,000 men directly employed, to say nothing of those concerned in attendant industries which are being grouped around the iron and steel works, and which are producing independently and giving employment to large numbers. If the Tariff standswithout the amendments which I desire, those Australian works which are just now becoming firmly established will have to carry on without adequate protection such as is being given to other Australian industries, both small and great. We must place the big parent industries upon a sound footing, so that they may withstand competition emanating from cheap-labour countries. I sincerely trust that the Minister will accede to my request. I want to see these industries, not merely firmly based, but flourishing. Unless we grant sufficient protection, we cannot expect that. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- What about giving a bounty, instead of making these increases in the Tariff? Everybody would pay his share then. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- The bounty may have been well enough in the early stages, when the industries could not produce enough to meet Australia's requirements; but when steel works have reached a stage at which they can turn out sufficient to supply Australia's requirements, the matter of a bounty goes by the board. If it could be shown that we had suffered by the operation of the Tariff as a means of protection to these industries in the past, if Australians had been penalized by Australian iron and steel producers behind the shelter of Protection, I would he able to understand the desire to grant a bounty rather than increase the degree of protection. But the plea for a bounty rather than a high duty fails to attract when one considers the price of these products throughout the world. The establishment of these works in Australia, under the protection of the Tariff, instead of being detrimental to the public interest, has saved them in the aggregate perhaps £10,000,000. I make use of that figure in the light of what Australians would have had to pay for their requirements had they imported them during the period under review. I ask the Minister to consider the danger confronting these new Australian industries, not only from such sources as America and Germany, but from India, where works are now being devoted, after a period of war-time activity, almost entirely to export trade. Australia is one of India's closest markets ; and where will we be in competition with cheap Indian labour if we are not safeguarded? Australian manufacturers have proved that Australian steel is of the finest quality in the world. The industry is rapidly growing, and its interests - wrapped up as they are in those of Australia itself - demand our practical sympathy. {: #subdebate-17-0-s2 .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay .- I have listened with interest and pleasure to the remarks of the honorable member, and I am quite in sympathy with his objects. I have visited the great steel works at Newcastle. They are a credit to the Commonwealth. They should receive every possible encouragement by way of adequate protection. At the same time, I call attention to the danger of imposing a heavy duty all round upon iron and steel productions. We must be careful not to place a practically prohibitive duty upon certain lines of manufacture which are not yet being turned out in Australia. I cite as an example steel plates and sheets, upon which, on and after the 1st January, 1922, there are proposed to be duties - I quote merely one size as an example - amounting to 65s., S2s. 6d., and 100s. per ton. A certain firm in my electorate was tendering some time ago for a contract involving the manufacture of fifty-five locomotives. The firm had to compete keenly both with Britain and America. There are various lines of steel and iron products which cannot yet be made in Australia. If they have to he obtained from overseas, an exceedingly high duty upon them will naturally affect any tender such as that of the firm in question. We must protect the general machinery founders. I wish to know if the Minister will consent to withhold the' imposition of the duty if, after 1st January, 1922, certain lines are still not manufactured here? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It i3 a deferred duty, and power will be taken to extend the period if the manufacture of the products lias not at that stage been undertaken. In fact, steps in that direction have already been taken. The intention is that if, by the time indicated, the manufacture of the products in question has" not been undertaken here, a further extension will be given. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- That is satisfactory. {: #subdebate-17-0-s3 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- It is our desire to see Australia become, as far as possible, self-sustaining. In order to bring that about, our infant iron and steel industry must be much more practically encouraged than in the past. Our trouble hitherto has been mainly that we have not been able to furnish from within Australia the essential raw products, or, at any rate, in requisite quantities. That difficulty, however, is now being obviated. The honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** interjected some 'minutes ago that instead of considerably increasing duties, it would be wiser to revert to the bonus system, under which the whole of the Australian people would give their share of financial assistance. The bonus system justified itself only so long as Australia could not furnish the Australian industry with the necessary raw product. If our industries are to flourish and become great, and supply the whole of the Australian demand, we must be able to furnish the raw material from within. There is one difficulty which has arisen, however, in connexion with providing the raw product for the iron and steel industry. To-day there are only two large interests supplying iron, namely, the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, and Hoskins Limited. Complaints have been made by smaller men which, unhappily, are justified. The iron and steel manufacturers may say that they are not in a position to supply smaller manufacturers with their product, and the smaller men, whose operations are interfered with, have then to compete unfairly with those who are receiving supplies. » {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I have heard of factories which could not obtain supplies. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Possibly so; and various reasons have been submitted. It was said on one occasion that the nasty workers went on strike, and that those engaged in the collieries would not handle coal. Personally, I hope that those who are inadequately paid will continue striking until their conditions are improved. {: .speaker-KFF} ##### Mr Foley: -- Is that why the honorable member would like to see an additional duty imposed? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I think it would be better if the honorable member submitted such a conundrum to the Chinese. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The Broken Hill Proprietary Company may acquire an interest in some of the larger ' factories in New South Wales, and then decline to supply factories in other States. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- That may be so; but such a charge could also he laid against other companies. That is one of the damnable situations which arise under our present economic system. We also know that the importers supply only certain people, and I am merely submitting arguments against the imposition of higher duties. I am hoping that the increase suggested by the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins),** if adopted, will be the means of inducing other manufacturers to come to Australia. Even if they do, there is the risk of an " honorable understanding " being entered into with other capitalistic institutions; but I am hoping that the measure which the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** has promised to bring before this Parliament will be the means of preventing commercial combines from operating to the detriment of the consumers. This practice is not common to the iron trade alone, because it was said that, if the spinning mills in Australia would not supply certain small manufacturers with the necessary yarn, they would have to pay a higher price for imported yarn, and would thus be placed in a very unfair position. Of course, the spinning mill proprietors said that they could not help it, as they had certain contracts to complete; but nevertheless the smaller men were penalized. We have experienced similar difficulties in many other directions. When we were discussing the last Tariff, and the duty on rope and jute was under consideration, the smaller manufacturers said that if we placed a duty on yarn Australian manufacturers would not be able to compete in the open market. I was in favour of encouraging the manufacture of yarn in Australia, and therefore had to insist on the imposition of a higher duty. We have to depend largely upon the actions of the firms. We know that capitalism has no soul; but if the capitalists do not look after their own interests, no one else will. I am prepared to tell the manufacturers of Australia that they are foolish if they do not assist in establishing industries for the manufacture of our raw products,; but if these industries combine to the detriment of others, this Parliament must have the opportunity of taking them over, not at their own price, but at a price acceptable to the Government. If I happen to be on the side that dominates the political situation when such action is taken, these gentlemen will get very short shrift from me, because if we are not prepared to control their operations we will be in a very bad position. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The honorable member does not expect this Government to act in the manner he suggests. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- No ; and any other Government who had the support of the Country party would not, I am afraid, do as I wish. We have to accept the inevitable whether we like it or not, and' manufacture the raw products in Australia. There is a great demand for the articles mentioned in sub-item b, which the manufacturers say that they cannot obtain. The district which I represent does not produce the raw material, but there are several large iron and steel manufacturing firms within its boundaries; if they cannot obtain imported iron and steel - and I am trying to prevent them - they must procure it from the Broken Hill Proprietary Company's steel works, or Hoskins Limited. These firms must not prevent the smaller manufacturers from getting what they require, and if they do they are seriously injuring important industries and retarding progress. I cannot prove that such is the case, but the matter has been brought under my notice. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Are they preventing any one now ? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- A month or six weeks ago there was difficulty in obtaining supplies, but I do not know whether the position is acute at present. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think the difficulty arose from the fact that there was a strike and work was held up. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The answer of the producer usually is that operations have been interfered with in consequence of a strike. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- But they were supplying others. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- If the men were striking for better conditions, I am not going to, complain,, because I think they were justified in doing so ; and I am prepared to take my share of the blame, because I believe in men striking. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- It is not many years since that was their only weapon. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- And in a good many cases it still is. I trust that the workmen will keep that portion of their machinery well oiled. {: .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr Watt: -- They cannot have it both ways. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The employer has it both ways when he can. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- While the employer has the right to lock-out, the employee should have the right to strike. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Exactly. {: #subdebate-17-0-s4 .speaker-JMG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson:
WILMOT, TASMANIA -- Order! {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I know that opponents of Protection would endeavour to handle this question in such a way as to prove that we should not impose higher duties. I am warning honorable members not to play into the hands of the Free Traders, and I trust that our manufacturers will sell their product direct to the consumers, and not through middlemen. I shall assist the honorable member for Newcastle in the amendment he ha3 suggested, and trust that some provision will be made by the Government whereby combines who endeavour to restrain trade can be effectively dealt with. {: #subdebate-17-0-s5 .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr MARKS:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT; IND NAT from 1929 . - I have had an opportunity of closely investigating the Australian iron industry, and recently visited the works of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, and Hoskins Limited. My last visit was made about two months ago, and it is possible that conditions may have altered somewhat since then, but at that particular time, the Broken Hill Proprietary Company and Hoskins Limited were quitesatisfied with the duties now before the Committee. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- But the bottom has fallen out of things on the other side of the world since then. {: #subdebate-17-0-s6 .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- That may be so. The manager of the Broken Hill steel works said that at Iron Knob they have the richest iron ore deposits in the world, and they could produce from their deposit in South Australia 1 ton of pig iron for every ton ofcoke used. He also informed me that the next cheapest producer in the world was Pittsburg, where it took 25 cwt. of coke to produce 1 ton of pig iron, thus showing that Australia had a preference of 25 per cent. over America. I am quite prepared to give the Broken Hill Proprietary Company and Hoskins Limited fair and proper protection provided that the public of Australia are also protected. If I thought for a moment that the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, in competition with other manufacturers, would be penalized, I would support a higher duty, but I have not heard an argument put forward that would suggest that an increase should be made. In giving protectionto our Australian industries, we have to be careful not to create Combines, which would be dominated by a few commercial men, and which would eventually be a curse to Australia. We have only to visit the site of the steel works at Newcastle to find that the adjacent ground is divided into blocks which they are prepared to lease to other firms for the establishment of secondary industries. At the present time the Austral Nail Works,. Wire Netting Works, and Lysaght's Galvanized Iron plant are established there. The Austral Nail Works cannot sell a pound of nails without the consent of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company. The position seemed so unusual that I perused the records in the Arbitration Court, and found in the evidence of the manager of the firm that such was the case. I shall never support increased duties if they are to be the means of creating monopolies. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The honorable member, I. suppose, is in favour of receiving supplies from Essen. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I am quite as good an Australian as the honorable member for Maribyrnong **(Mr. Fenton),** and am merely bringing this matter forward in an endeavour to safeguard the people. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- The Broken Hill steel works have nothing to do with nails; no nails have been produced there. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I say that sworn evidence to that effect is on the records of the Arbitration Court in New South Wales. The manager of the company said that the Austral Nail people could not sell a pound of nails without the consent of the Broken Hill Company. If arguments are advanced to show that it is necessary to give this protection to help Australian industries, I am prepared to support it, but I will not support an Australian monopoly. If the Broken Hill Company and Hoskins are prepared to consider the interests of every firm in the iron manufacturing industry throughout Australia, and supply to each the raw material.it. requires in open competition,. I shall be prepared to protect the producers of the raw material. There are, however, industries started in the neighbourhood of the works of the Broken Hill Company who, having their own railways and rolling stock, can run the raw. material out of their yards into the yards of these companies, whilst other firms manufacturing iron in other parts of Australia have the cost of the raw material they use loaded with a high cost for freight. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -The honorable member does not. want the Broken Hill Company to deliver their goods free all over the Commonwealth? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I do not; but I want them to give other firms throughout Australia the same consideration that they give the subsidiary firms established near their works. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- I am assured that there is no difference made in the treatment of different firms. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- Will the Broken Hill Company give that assurance? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- Yes. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I am told that they will not. If they will give that assurance, I shall he prepared to support them. I want an assurance that they will not sell the raw material to subsidiary industries in Newcastle at a lower rate than they charge to firms in the business of manufacturing iron in other parts of the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- Who was it made the statement that the Austral Nail Company could not sell a pound of nails without the consent of the Broken Hill Company ? {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: **- Mr. McDougall.** {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- I can tell my honorable friend that he is absolutely wrong. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- Then I can only ask for the production of the records of the New South Wales Arbitration Court. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- The honorable member is wrong in the statement that he makes, and it is well that that should be known. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I can produce the record of the statement. 1 repeat my statement, that if the Broken Hill Company will give an assurance that they will not sell their raw material at a lower rate to the subsidiary industries in Newcastle than to firms engaged in the same business elsewhere in Australia, I shall be prepared to support protection for their industry. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- How can they give that assurance? If a man goes to a shop to buy goods, he gets them cheaper than he does if they have to be delivered to him. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I am not asking for free delivery to various firms, but that the Broken Hill Company shall sell their products to all firms at the same price at their works. There is a man carrying on business in the manufacture of nails in a small way at Waterloo, in the South Sydney electorate, and I ask whether it is fair that, because he requires only a few tons of rod iron, the Broken Hill people should charge him from £3 to £4 per ton more than they charge a firm using 10,000 tons per year? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- A reasonable discount for a large order is not unfair. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I ask honorable members whether they do not think that a firm prepared to make a contract with the Broken Hill Company for 54,000 tons, spread over three years, is entitled to some consideration? {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Yes. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I say that a subsidiary industry established in Newcastle can buy raw material from the Broken Hill Company at a lower rate than the company is prepared to quote for a big firm that will take 54,000 tons in three years. That appears to me to indicate that the Broken Hill Company is a monopoly. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- That should be investigated. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR: -- I am asking that it should be investigated. I have been asking that for the last couple of months. I am prepared, in order to establish industries in Australia, to support the Broken Hill Company, Hoskins, and other manufacturers of iron, but I am not going to support any industry that is a monopoly. {: #subdebate-17-0-s7 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- Honorable members have just listened to a speech in which the honorable member for Parkes **(Mr. Marr)** claimed to be a Protectionist, and then said that he was not going to support these industries unless certain things are done as he desires. Although the honorable member claims to be desirous of making Australia self-contained, his speech would appear to have one object only, and that is to destroy all prospect of the successful carrying on of steel and iron works. If the statements which the honorable member has made were correct, the Committee would not be justified in voting for increased protection for these industries. It is because I believe they are not correct that I have risen to speak. I have the assurance now from **Mr. McDougall,** the gentleman named by the honorable member, and the manager of the particular works to which he referred, that there is not one atom of truth in the statement that has been attributed to him. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Then it is a good job that the honorable member for Parkes **(Mr. Marr)** made the statement. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- To show how misinformed the honorable member for Parkes is, **Mr. McDougall** assures me that he has never been in the Arbitration Court in his life. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- He made the statement to which I have referred. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- It is wrong to put such a statement before the Committee. It might mean life or death to this industry. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- Could we postpone the consideration of the item until I can supply the record? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- If I believed the honorable member's statement to be correct, I could not conscientiously vote for any increase of this duty. The Newcastle works of the Broken Hill Company have been established now for a few years. I say that they were of immense value to this country during the war. I do not know what we should have done in Australia had it not been for this particular company. When the honorable member for Parkes talks of objecting to a monopoly, let me remind him that he is no more opposed to monopolies than I am. But I am not coming here to play the hypocrite, and I say that even if the Broken Hill Company were a monopoly we should not permit monopolies established outside of Australia and carrying on their business with cheap labour to send their goods here to the detriment of the people for whom we have to find employment. The question is whether the recent war has taught the people of Australia and members of this Parliament that this country must be selfcontained. If it has taught us that lesson, then we must discuss this Tariff with a view to establishing Australian industries. The speecli of the honorable member for Parkes leads me to the conclusion that he does not understand the position. The Minister for Trade and Customs has stated on more than one occasion that if this Tariff is passed it is his intention to create a Board, and if he finds through the investigations of that Board that any monopoly has been created for the purpose of exploiting the people, he will bring the matter before this Parliament and have the monopoly dealt with through the Tariff. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- I am prepared to support that. Mr.CHARLTON.- Then I claim that the honorable member should support the increased duty proposed in this case. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The Minister has taken very fine care to give the Committee no inkling whatever of what will be contained in the Bill he proposes to introduce. He asks us to swallow the Tariff first. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The Minister has given us some particulars, but the honorable member surely does not expect to be supplied with the whole of the details of the measure before it is submitted to us. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- It should have been introduced before now. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- When it is submitted to us we shall be able to discuss it, and to make it as effective as possible. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- Does the honorable member think such a measure will be effective? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I do not know why it should not be effective. The honorable member, no doubt, has in mind our constitutional limitations. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- No. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- As the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has said, the Constitution gives us full power to deal with Customs ; and if those whom we protect do not act fairly by the people, we shall be able, by the exercise of our Customs power, to put them in their proper place. That being so, we have only to consider whether or not the duty is adequate. The honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** has stated that it is wholly inadequate. It might have been sufficient for the purpose when this Tariff schedule was submitted twelve months ago, but since then there have been many changes in Australian conditions. Amongst other thing3, owing to the increased cost of living, wages have been increased. Then, again, freights have gone up, and the price of coal has increased. All these matters have to be taken into account by us in determining whether or not the duty is adequate. We know also that throughout Europe the workers, in many instances, have been obliged recently to take reduced wages, in order that the industries in which they are engaged may carry on. During the war the workers in other countries received much higher wages than they had previously enjoyed, and we were in a better position, therefore, to compete with imports from oversea. Circumstances, however, have changed, and labour abroad being now much cheaper thau it was two or three years ago, we could not fairly expect a duty imposed twelve months ago to be effective to-day. We have, therefore, either to increase the duty in this case or to allow cheap-labour imports to come in, to the detriment of our own people. The outlook is not too good, and it is essential to establish our industries on a firm basis, in order that employment may be found for our own people, as well as for those who are now being induced to nome to Australia. It is true, as the Acting Prime Minister **(Sir Joseph Cook)** said this afternoon, that Australia is managing as well, perhaps, as most other countries; but what is happening in other countries must bereflected here if we permit the free introduction of goods made under conditions that we would not tolerate. Already we hear of thousands of unemployed, but if we do not protect our own industries from the cheap labour of other countries, we shall have tens of thousands out of work. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The primary producer has to compete with the cheap-labour products of other countries. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The primary producer has been doing fairly well of late. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- I am very sorry to hear the honorable member make that statement. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- During the last year or two our primary producers have done much better than before. Will the honorable member say that the position of the wheat-growers has not been improved during the past two years? {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- So far as wheat is concerned, we have done better. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Only because of the assistance which the Government have given the wheat-growers in getting their produce to market. Prior to the war, from 3s. 9d. to 4s. 3d. a bushel for wheat was considered a good price. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- I deny that. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- **Mr. Lynch,** exmember for Werriwa, who has been engaged in farming for many years, said againand again in this House that from 3s. 9d. to 4s. 3d. a bushel was considered to be a good price before the war. Honorable members of the Country party will not say that it is not in the best interests of this country to establish the iron and steel industry here. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Not at all. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Nor will the honorable member say that the subsidiary industries should not also be encouraged. The steel industry gives direct employment to thousands of workmen, and indirectly finds employment for thousands of others. If we can firmly establish that industry by means of a Tariff that will keep out cheap imports from Belgium and elsewhere, should we not do so? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- And so increase the local markets for our primary products. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Exactly. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- But if the primary producer can only obtain black labour rates for his produce in Australia, of what advantage will that be to him? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The primary producer in some respects, at all events, has of late had a fair chance. If he is not getting reasonable prices for some of his products, the fault must rest with the middlemen, because the consumer is undoubtedly paying good rates. The sooner the Country party work for the handling of our primary products on cooperative lines the better. The honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** will admit that we ought to encourage our own industries: {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Every industry has a right to be encouraged, but not at the expense of other industries. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The increased duty proposed in this case will not benefit the iron and steel industry at the expense of other industries here. *Sitting, suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.* {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I was pointing out to honorable members ofthe Country party and their constituents the effects. of the establishment of a Protective policy which would encourage our industries to such an extent as to find employment for our people, and markets for the product of those on the land. I do not think that any one will endeavour to controvert the position I seek to establish. Our future prosperity must depend on our capacity to find employment for our people; and, in view of the necessity for a greater population, we must establish such industries as that of iron and steel. It has been argued that, so far as the iron and steel industry is concerned, it represents something in the nature of a combine. If that be so, the Minister now, for the first time, proposes to provide a tribunal for dealing with any attempt of the kind made under the Tariff, and supposed to be detrimental to the welfare of the community. At the present time, however, the iron and steel industry is not confined to any one company ; we have the Broken Hill Proprietary, and Hoskins Brothers, while we are given to understand that in Queensland, also, it is proposed to establish iron works. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Hoskins Brothers are going to Port Kembla. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- That is so. We have, therefore, three distinct companies in this line of business, and it would appear that there will be sufficient competition to see justice done to those who require the articles produced by the companies. The honorable member for Parkes **(Mr. Marr)** has told us that the Broken Hill Proprietary has refused to sell its products on an equal footing to different purchasers. In order to dissipate any idea of the kind, I quote the following letter - which has just been handed to me - from the secretary of the Broken Hill Proprietary to the Minister for Trade and Customs: - >In reply to the statement made in the House of Representatives this afternoon by the honorable member for Parkes to the effect that discrimination and preference to customers in respect of supply and delivery were practised by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited,I desire to state emphatically that neither charge can be sustained against my company. There we have an emphatic denial. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- I shall show otherwise. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Of course, the honorable member has a perfect right to substantiate what he has said. However, there is no industry in the Commonwealth of greater importance than the iron and steel industry. It is good for us that the industry was under way when the war broke out; otherwise I do not know what would have happened to Australia. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- What about the bogus ammunition factory at Broken Hill? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Whatever objection honorable members may have to this or any other company, we cannot deny that this industry was of great value to Australia during the trying period of the war. We were then taught the lesson that if Australia had to be anything, it must be self-contained. The only question that remains is whether the duty proposed in the schedule is sufficient. This duty was imposed twelve months ago, and honorable members who trace events during that time must conclude that what might be adequate then is inadequate to-day. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- What duty do you desire ? . {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- We ask that the duty be increased by about 50 per cent. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Not 50 per cent. *ad valorem ?* {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- No. Honorable members may laugh at my proposal, but what it means is an increase from 20s. to 30s. in the British preference column, 30s. to 45s. in the intermediate column, and 40s. to 60s. in the general column. I venture to say that these are not such big increases. as to justify any laughter, when we consider what has happened since the Tariff was originally imposed. For instance, relying on my memory, I may ask what has been the increase in the price of coal, which is used to such a large extent in this industry? {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- What are the increases on the other side? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I shall come to the " other side " if the honorable member will wait. There has been a very substantial increase in the price of coal, and, in addition, the workers employed by this particular company, and, indeed, in all other industries, have received increases in wages, though those increases have never overtaken tie cost of living. However, in the iron and steel industry the increases in wages have beenpretty heavy, and then we have to consider the increase in freights, harbor dues, and so forth. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- Did I not hear the honorable member, a little while back, tell us that coal is produced more cheaply in Australia than anywhere else? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Yes, and I say so now. The honorable member for Echuca **(Mr. Hill)** has asked, " What are the increases on the other side ? " I can only inform him that, with the exception of Great Britain, where, unfortunately, there is great trouble to-day, every country has seen a decrease in the price of coal, and at the present time coal is being imported from France, America, and elsewhere to other parts of Europe. In Europe, therefore, there is no dearth of coal, and that is one fact -which operates in favour of those who manufacture iron and steel -on the Continent. Then, again, I am sorry to say that in Europe wages are falling every day, the workmen being compelled to accept reductions. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- And some people are doing their damndest to make the workmen here accept reductions. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- My object is to try and keep wages up. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Are you not trying to keep prices up? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- So long as only reasonable profits are made, it is good for employers and employees to have prices kept up. At the present time, wages are decreasing week after week, and this has given rise to the disastrous strike in the Old Country. In Belgium, both wages and the price of coal have fallen, and it is possible there to produce more cheaply than we can here. That state of things is likely to continue, and, if so, how can any objection to an increase in this duty be justified? We meet here as men desirous of making Australia self-contained; and if we do not achieve our object the results will be disastrous. The price paid here may be a little higher than in Belgium, but does any one say that we, with our better conditions and higher standard of living, ought to be able to manufacture here at the same cost as in Belgium? We must remember that freights are not half what they were twelve-months ago. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- And a good job, too. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I am not saying it is not " a good job," but if freights are falling now they were previously too high. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- They are still higher than they %vere before the war. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- That is so, but they have decreased by half in the last twelve months. This duty was imposed twelve months ago, when freights were high, and the conditions of labour abroad were better; and it is now for us to say whether or not, under the altered condi tions, the duty should be increased. There is not one interjection from the other side to indicate that what I say is not correct. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- That is not so. I say the Tariff was not justified on account of the high war prices. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- No one has taken up that position previously. The honorable member now says that there was no justification for putting on the Tariff. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I do not say that ; what I say is that the abnormal prices of fifteen* months ago did not justify the Tariff. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I do not agree with the honorable member, because, in my opinion, the Tariff was justified. Without the Tariff, this industry would not have been established in Australia- {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- That is not correct. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I say that the Tariff keeps the industry going. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- You say that the industry would not have been started but for the Tariff. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- It might have been started, but the war conditions helped it - the matter is doubtful. However, we have to face the position as it is. If the conditions have altered so materially abroad, and if we wish to preserve our rates of wages and present standard of living, we must impose such a Tariff as will exclude the foreign manufactured article; and I speak now as one who has gone through the mill. I have denounced the exploitation of people by means of excessive prices, but I realize that we must keep prices up to a reasonable level in order to insure to our people a proper standard of living here. We cannot compare our conditions here with those that prevail in foreign countries. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- After the Protection you desire is provided, what guarantee have you that the present wages will remain in force? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- We have no guarantee, but we have tribunals to deal with- questions of wages; and prices play a prominent part in the adjustment of wages. What guarantee has the honorable member or myself that our industries will continue if we allow them to so languish as to create thousands of unemployed and low wages for those who have work? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- We shall have thousands of unemployed, Tariff or no Tariff. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Unfortunately, we have unemployed to-day, and that is a reason why we should find means of employment. Is the unemployment here a justification for our permitting foreign countries to send us products which we should provide ourselves? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- The carrying on of our industries depends on the European situation, and not on the Tariff. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I cannot agree with the honorable member; whatever objections the honorable member may have to the present economic system or conditions, we must, while it prevails, endeavour to do the best we can for the people of Australia. Eor that reason, I hope the Committee will agree to the proposed increased duty. **Mr. GREGORY** (Dampier) [8.151.- I think everybody in this Parliament, or anywhere else in Australia, is quite satisfied that an industry such as that which has been established at Newcastle by the Broken Hill Proprietary Company is essential to the future welfare of the country; and if it could be shown that it needed any special protection, I am sure that Parliament would be quite unanimous in giving it whatever assistance it required. But has it been shown by any speaker here to-night that the industry has been languishing at any period since it was established, or that the company has not been able to produce successfully against any competition that might be brought to bear against it? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- They have had to put hands off recently. {: #subdebate-17-0-s8 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Why ? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- Because of the competition. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I cannot believe that, with the present high prices, thero can be anything in the nature of severe opposition at the present moment to an industry such as this. I am satisfied, and the sooner the Committee realizes it the better, that this country has only a certain productive value, and we must make the conditions in Australia such that we are able to compete with other countries. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- You are a foreign country party, all right. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I always hear that cry from a certain' section who would buy their own goods from the Chinese. I find that the men who make all these protestations are the crowd who generally go to the Chinaman's shop to buy their groceries. I have made it clear ever since the Tariff debate started that I am very little concerned about the duties as they affect outside countries other than Great Britain. I should have liked to include Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa in the treatment accorded to Great Britain. I have done all I possibly could to. show how desirous I am of encouraging trade with the British Empire - that is, so far as we could do so with fair consideration to ourselves. In what I have said, I have always wanted the Committee to realize the value of the natural protection which Australia enjoys in regard to the importation of goods from outside. I do not intend to press that point so far as ironand steel are concerned, but when we are dealing with agricultural machinery and bulky articles of that sort, the question of natural protection is a very big one. It is wise for the Government to encourage an industry such as we are now considering. The only question is what nature that encouragement should partake of, and to what extent it is necessary. Nobody has shown that the Broken Hill works at Newcastle are languishing, or that they have not been carried on at very great profit. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Does the honorable member suggest that we must wait until an industry is languishing before we take action? Would that not be rather late? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No. If the honorable member will permit me, I shall show shortly, by reference to other countries, and particularly to Canada, what I mean. The Broken Hill Company has built up this industry on first-class lines. It has as fine a plant as there is in the world. I have read its book, *From Silver to Steel,* and a good many of its reports. Unfortunately I have not been able to visit Newcastle to see its works there, but I believe I am correct in saying that it has one of the finest plants in the world. Assuming, however, that we had a second or third-rate plant in Australia, turning out iron or steel, would honorable members be justified in saying that, because the industry was languishing, and those running it could not make it pay, high duties should be imposed on the goods it was turning out, simply because it did not possess an up-to-date plant? That is where the trouble lies. We are asked, because up-to-date appliances are not used, and because a factory does not avail itself of all the latest inventions- {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- You cannot say that in this case. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I could have said it so far as some of our industries are concerned. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- Obsolete methods of production are not confined to. secondary industries, they apply to agriculture as well. Mri GREGORY. - That is so, and the more difficult we make it for the farmer to get his machinery in, the harder it is for him to use up-to-date methods. If Parliament were to say,. " You must get everything you want in Australia; you must not use the inventions: that are being made all over the world," the difficulties of the farmer would be intensified. Quite a number of industrial concerns, realizing the competition they are meeting from other countries,are seriously considering this phase of the question. Only the other night I read a paragraph in the *Herald* about the Barrow Haematite Steel Company, in England, which, by installing a new blast furnace, had effected a saving in coke, wages, and. other charges which worked out at the rate of £60,000 a year compared with the expenditure on the furnace that it replaced. It is absolutely essential to consider that question in this case, for the very special reason that we are dealing now with one of the great key industries of Australia. By every fraction by which we increase the cost of iron or steel, we are penalizing every other industry in the Commonwealth. If we make steel dearer in Australia, we must surely make dearer every implement that is required in the mine or on the farm. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- That argument applies to every primary product. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It applies more particularly to a key industry such as this. Therefore, until we are satisfied that it cannot be carried on successfully without a duty, we should hesitate before imposing one. Surely some argument should be brought forward to show that without this duty the industry cannot be carried on. The Broken Hill Company has, I believe, one of the most up-to-date plants in the world. Its works are situated right on the seaboard, and it ought, therefore, to be able to get its products in and out as cheaply as any other part of the world, including America, Canada, and Great Britain. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- Is not the productive capacity of that plant out of all proportion to the consumption capacity of the country ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I do not think it is, although I have not gone into that phase of the question. If it is, we shall have to build up an. export trade, and I believe it is quite possible for the company to be ableto do so. At any rate, the honorable member should realize that we cannot build up population in Australia by dragging all the people from the country into the cities. The company ought *to* be gettingcoal ascheaply as in almost any . country in the world. Our coal miners and coal mine-owners should, be able to produce at a figure which compares favorably with coal production anywhere else. They ought to be able to compare more thanfavorably with the coal miner of England, and certainly ought to be able to compare with the coal miner of America.. If we are not doing so already, and I do not say that is the case, it is probably due to the use of out-of-date methods.. A paper which I have here, dealing with the coal industry, shows a remarkable difference in the production of coal in America. and in England. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- The honorable member cannot go by those comparisons, because in. one case you have a very high seam, and inthe other case a low seam, and a man can get out three times: more in one place than he can in the other. MrGREGORY.- I quite admit that; in the majority of the mines in America, you probably get a bigger seam than in Great Bri tain. I am quoting from *Dun's International Review* - a paper of world-wide reputation. It states:- >Wages in the United Statesof America havealways been at least twice those of other coalproducing countries, and this has proved a difficult barrier to overcome in the struggle for markets. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- J doubt the accuracy of that statement, if it means that American wages in the coal industry are twice those paid in Australia. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- There may he a slight exaggeration there; but it is quite probable that the writer was not considering Australian conditions at all. The fact remains that, right through the war, wages in the United States of America were considerably higher than those paid in Australia. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- And the working hours were longer. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Hour for hour, the wages were considerably higher in America than here. The *Review* states that, according to the official British figures, in 1916 the average South Wale3 miner cut 222 tons of bituminous coal and 207 tons of anthracite coal, as against 891 tons of bituminous coal and 548 tons of anthracite coal cut by the average American miner. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- They had the men working in stockades in America, and would not let the union delegates enter. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The American workman is probably a great deal more independent than the workmen of other countries, and does not 'allow outsiders -to determine his conditions, as, for instance, at Mount Lyell and Mount Morgan recently. The .point I am making is that we must introduce the most up-to-date methods. I understand that coal can be obtained at "Newcastle to-day at £1 ls. 9d. per ton. In England, according to the latest returns, coal costs £2 12s. a ton. That was the price just prior to the strike. It takes 3 tons of coal to manufacture a ton of steel,' and I question whether coal was obtainable in Great Britain prior to the strike for twice the price at which it can be got here. Then the Broken Hill Company has at Iron Knob, in South Australia, a practically inexhaustible supply of iron ore, assaying from 66 to 68 per cent, of iron fairly free from sulphur, and without phosphorus, whereas in Great Britain the average percentage of iron obtainable is from 30 to 36, and about the same, in Germany, and in the United States of America it is not more, than 38. Therefore, a ton of iron ore from Iron Knob will yield nearly twice as much pig iron as can be obtained from the iron ore mined in the countries from which we get our chief supplies of iron and steel. In Australia, we have cheap coal and rich iron ore. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- And cheap labour. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I do not know that. What we should require of labour here is that its output should be equivalent to that of other countries. With the advantages I have named, we should be able to produce iron and steel as cheaply as, and even more cheaply, than other countries can do so. It is idle to say that, in the Old Country, wages have been cut down below what are paid here. In March of last year, according .to the *Daily Chronicle,* the rates of wages in the iron industry of England were from 20 to 25 per cent, higher than the rates paid in Australia. Wages have not increased here to the extent that might have been anticipated, more particularly when the high prices that the Broken Hill Company was getting for its output during the war are remembered. The company did good work during the war, and gave us supplies that we could not then obtain elsewhere, besides sending steel to the Old Country, which was highly commended. But the company was started before the war, without any expectation of the big protective duties now proposed. Are these duties justified ? The big profits made during the war must have helped the company to build up reserves, and to increase plant, and thus a large industry has been created. But we have not yet got back to pre-war conditions, and prices are still exceedingly high. I do not know, whether the statement made to-night, that the .company has been supplying one firm and not another, is correct; but with the help of the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** and **Sir John** Higgins some vile Combines have been started in this country. We know of the formation of the Zinc Producers Organization, which has compelled the Mount Lyell Company, the' Broken Hill Company, and other companies, to hand over to it all their output for the next fifty years. A Copper Producers Association was also formed. In a circular which has been .sent to members by Messrs. Lysaght, it is pointed out that £33 a ton has to be paid for local mined spelter, although the market price of spelter in England is only £24. For copper, too, the local manufacturer has to pay 25 per cent, more than the price at which it can be bought in the markets of the world, although copper is produced in Australia. We must break down these Combines. **-* this city to-day, there are the makings of some very fine ones. ' Men are getting behind the scenes and securing control of our industries in a way that will become intolerable unless it is checked in time. Prices have not come back to the prewar level. I have here a list of maximum prices received prior to and during the war, and also at the present time. I obtained the list from a hardware merchant to-day, and I think I can guarantee its accuracy. In regard to bar and wrought iron, I find the pre-war price was £8 10s. per ton, that during the war it rose to £36 per ton, and to-day it is £28 per ton. In this line it will be seen we have not by any means got back to normal conditions, and, in addition, heavier freight, insurance, and exchange charges are all in favour of the local manufacturer. Fencing wire before the war was £7 10s. per ton wholesale. During the war it rose to £42 per ton, and to-day it is £23 per ton. How on earth are our people going to develop the outback country if they have to pay such high prices for these necessary articles upon which very heavy duties are now being levied? My list contains particulars of other articles, all going to show that present prices are, on the average, 100 per cent, above pre-war rates. We should follow the Canadian practice. Canada is right alongside a great manufacturing country like the United States of America, which has a big free list. Item 613 of the United States of America Tariff, steel ingots, cogged ingots, blooms, and slabs, dieblocks or blanks, and billets, made by the Bessemer Siemens-Martin open hearth or similar processes, is on the free list. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will the honorable member quote the United States of America duty when that industry was established ? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- It was 75 per cent, then. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- If tho Minister will study the United States of America Tariff he will find that the duties have been rising and falling as different Governments came into office ever since 1803, and I may remind him that the McKinley Cabinet, which was responsible for the heavy Protectionist duties in 1890 went out of office on the next appeal to the country. I do not know whether the present Government will meet a similar fate. I am only reminding the Minister of what happened in that case. The United States of America so built up their iron and steel industries that they can do without protection, and Canada, which is alongside the United States of America, and whose industries are in competition with those of the United States of America, is content with a duty of 10s. 5d. per ton on pig iron, whereas this Committee is asked to increase the duty of 20s. per ton by 50 per cent. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- One-third of the capital invested in Canada is from the United States of America. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- But the policy of the Canadian Government is not dictated by the investors of the United States of America, who may have put their money into Canadian plant. I want also to remind honorable members that the Canadian manufacturers, besides having to meet the United States of America manufacturers in competition, have to import a great proportion of the coal required for manufacturing purposes. For instance, in 1918, they imported 45,000,000 tons of anthracite coal, duty free, and over 14,000,000 tons of bituminous coal, on which they paid a duty of 35 cents per ton, and still they are able to carry on with lighter duties than are proposed in this schedule. I .direct attention to the report of a Select Committee that inquired into this particular industry, and reported in October, 1912. **Mr. Delprat** gave some important evidence. He was asked - >I presume you arc going into these works, believing you can compete successfully, so far as iron and steel are concerned, with the markets of the outside world? He said " Yes " to this question, and was then asked - >I suppose you will not ask that any import duty be put upon iron and steel to assist you in your industry? To this he replied - >No. We have decided that if we cannot carry on without Government support or assistance, we shall not proceed with the. works at all. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The conditions have totally altered since then. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The Treasurer reminds us that the conditions have altered. I have been looking up earlier *Hansard* reports and reading the wonderful speeches made by members of the Free Trade party headed by the present Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes),** and aided and abetted by the present Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook).** I cannot believe that either of those gentlemen has altered his opinion to any extent. It is possible, however, that political views have made all this difference in them. I want to show that industrial conditions have not altered in Australia to the extent that they havealtered in Great Britain and America. I shall show, later on, that the wages paid in those countries in the manufacture of agricultural machinery are considerably in advance of those paid in Australia, and that the production elsewhere is ever so much greater than it is here. If the workers would only give an adequate output, the cost of wages paid to them would be no great item. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- Has the honorable member read the evidence given in this morning's paper in regard to Cockatoo Island? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I read the evidence contained in the report submitted by the Public Accounts Committee, of which the honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. Charlton)** was Chairman. It was one of the fairest and best reports ever published. It showed the difficulties with which the management of the island had to contend. Unfortunately, the recommendations of the Committee were not carried out. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- On a point of order, what connexion has the honorable member's remarks with the item under discussion ? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson: -- The honorable member for Dampier is not in order in discussing Cockatoo Island. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have already shown that the report of the Inter-State Commission contains a clear and distinct statement made by the Broken Hill Proprietary when they established their steel works that they did not require anything in the nature of a duty or assistance from the Commonwealth Government. Mr.Watkins. - They all said that at the commencement. They were enthusiasts. The attempt to start steel works in Australia in face of such tremendous opposition reads like a romance. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Probably there is a different crowd in control to-day. Possibly, seeing the way in which duties have been increased all round, they have come to the conclusion that they might as well be in the swim and ask for more. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- The honorable member has made comparisons with almost every country in the world but Belgium, from which our steel works are getting competition to-day in the shape of goods which probably come from Germany. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have figures that show that the prices of these big lines coming from Belgium are nearly 300 per cent, higher than pre-war prices. Of course, we. shall never go back to the prewar level. I do not want that. I want to see good conditions established for our workers, because it will be useless for us to attempt to carry on without a contented community; but we cannot exceed the productive capacity of the country. We cannot pay wages beyond our productive capacity. We must consider the effect these duties are likely to have on people who are engaged in primary production. If the imposition of heavy duties makes land development too expensive, production must decrease; and if we cease to produce wealth we cannot continue to pay wages. The' following words, contained in the report of the Inter-State Commission, justify my previous remarks in reference to the iron deposits at Iron Knob : - >I see nothing in the evidence to justify the assumption that some form of fiscal assistance will be permanently inevitable. On the contrary, the richness of Australian ore deposits, compared with those of other countries (the Iron Knob ore yields 68 per cent. of iron as against 36 per cent. profitably worked in Germany), and the freight charges borne by our nearest competitors, make it probable that **Mr. Delprat's** original view that the industry can stand on its own footing in Australia will prove right once output is secured, and with it low production cost. The adage, "The ore goes to the fuel" is complied with in the Australian works. Before reading the recommendation of that Commission, I want to point out that the people of Western Australia are endeavouring to build up their State. **Mr. Lysaght** has demonstrated the cost of conveying galvanized iron and other materials from Newcastle to Fremantle - the freight ranges from £2 10s. to £3 2s. 6d. per ton - and the Inter-State Commission has shown that even if a bonus were given for the delivery of pig-iron to distant places, no such bonus would be sufficient to enable Australian manufacturers to capture the Western Australian market. I do not suppose that much pigiron is imported into Western Australia, but I feel sure that steel and other-similar lines can be imported from Great Britain under the present Tariff cheaper than they can be from Newcastle unless the price of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company's product is considerably reduced. Freight alone will enable the Western Australian people to get a cheaper article from Great Britain. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- The honorable member is not looking at the cost of carrying the raw material toNewcastle. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- That is quite a different matter. Evidently the honorable member has not studied the question. The Broken Hill Proprietary Company have vessels specially built for the purposeof conveying iron ore from Iron Knob to Newcastle. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- Those vessels are under the same navigation laws, awards and expenses as are other vessels. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- That, again, is an entirely different matter. The Broken Hill 'Proprietary Company's vessels run from their own wharf at Iron Knob to their own wharf at Newcastle, and their costs are nothing in comparison with what they would be if they had to tie up at other people's wharfs and consign from one port to another. This is the recommendation made by the Inter-State Commission - >We recommend that a duty of 17s. 6d. per ton general, and 12s.. 6d. per ton preferential, be imposed on pig iron, except pig iron of special brands and values, which are provided for hereunder. Thiswill not secure the Western Australian market, but no means can be seen of arranging for this without the imposition of a duty more thanadequate for the other States. If the Government have power, the best method to adoptwould be by giving further assistance byway ofa 10s. per ton bounty on all Australian pig iron delivered to Western Australia. The Commonwealth has no power to differentiate between States in that way. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Constitution specially debars that. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- If the InterState Commission has recommended a remedy which is unconstitutional, what weight can be attached to its other recommendations ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The Inter-State Commission was inquiring into the Tariff, and not into constitutional questions, and. the report has this qualification - "If the Government have power." The Commission's recommendation has been entirely ignored. I understand that the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** intends to move an amendment, and after it is disposed of I shall move that the recommendation of the Inter-State Commission for a duty of 12s. . 6d. per ton be adopted. {: #subdebate-17-0-s9 .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong -- The honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** has industriously and laboriously applied himself to the investigation of ancient history, and written under old conditions. He has looked into evidence furnished to the InterState Commission in 1912, and has studied most carefully the recommendations they made. But those investigations and recommendations were made under a condition of things totally different from those existing to-day, and I do notthink they can help usin anyway. The honorable member must realize that the cost of production has increased 100, 150, and in some cases200 per cent. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- All over the world. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I am referring to Australia. Whilst **Mr. Delprat** and other witnesses may have had splendid aspirations as to starting the industry without assistance, the actual practical experience has clearly demonstrated that under existing conditionsthe industry cannot prosper without Protection. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The steel works have done very well so far. SirROBERT BEST.- Probably they have, mainly under war conditions, and I commend the proprietors for their enterprise; but we must realize what has actually taken place during the last twelve months. Honorable members have referred indiscriminately to the increase of duties to be proposed by the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins),** and much confusion exists as to. the real issues ; they have overlooked the very essence of the question. As the honorable; member told the House - and this isthe kernel of the matter - the duty proposed by the Government twelve months ago was 20s. per ton British preferential for pig iron. As the result of an investigation by the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** and his officers into the affairs of this great industry, the Minister was satisfied that fair and reasonable protection for the industry would . be a. duty of 20s. per ton. I ask honorable members to apply their minds to what has happened in the meantime. According to the Hibble report, the cost of coal has increased 4s. per ton; according to the Board of Trade award, wages have increased 8s. 6d. per week per employee; and, in addition, harbor dues have been imposed, making a total increased cost of14s. per ton. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Coal, in 1912, was 11s. per ton, and it is now 21s. 9d. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- Yes. The result of the industrial increase during the last' twelve months is that the duty of 20s., imposed on the 25th March, 1920, is worth only 6s. to-day to the industry. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Is not the coal supplied to the steel industry the cheapest in the world? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I have allowed for the increase in the cost ofcoal and wages, and the result has been to decrease the scheduled duty by 70 per cent. (British preferential). {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- How does the honorable member make that out? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- The increase of wages by 8s. 6d. per employee per week, the increase of 4s. per ton in the price of coal, and the harbor dues have increased the cost of production by 14s. and. upwards per ton. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- What is the corresponding change on the other side of the world ? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I will tell the honorable member presently. My contention is that the investigations of the Minister enabled him to satisfy himself, when he introduced the Tariff, that 20s. per ton was a reasonable duty for the encouragement of this industry. And in that view this House would have, supported him. Parliament would have been satisfied that 20s. was a fair duty to impose in order to effectively protect the industry. However, the duty which he then imposed is to-day worth only 6s.; and it is in those circumstances that the Broken Hill Proprietary Company come to Parliament and. lay their case before it. I have just been asked what hasbeen the state ofaff airs on the other side of the world. I have shown that the increased cost of production here is equalto70 per cent. reduction in the value of. the duty. On the other side, taking Belgium for example, coal has considerably decreased in value. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- What is the price there ? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I have the figures at hand, and will endeavour to furnish themto the honorable member. In America also coal has decreased in value. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- At the pit run in Pittsburg the price is at present 16 s. 8d. per ton. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- In the United States of America there has been a decrease of11s. 3d. per ton during the year. That means that the cost of production has decreased, so far as fuel isconcerned, by that amount per ton. As for wages, I can furnish abundant material to prove that there have been substantial decreases in Belgium, from which source we fear much opposition; and in America also. The honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** made reference to the contrast between our wages and those paid in Germany last year. Wages were £7 per month there as against £18 here. This year, wages in Germany are at the rate of £5 per month, as against £22 10s. paid in Australia to-day. That clearly indicates that, while the cost of production here has greatly increased, the cost on the part of our competitors has considerably dropped. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Tell us something about Great Britain. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- In the Mother Country wages are coming down. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- How much is coal there? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- The price is *£2* odd per ton. But I am speaking of the altered conditions so far as our foreign competitors are concerned. Some honorable members talk as though we were resorting to some wild and untried experiments, or some scheme which would prove, upon experience, to be detrimental to the best interests of Australia. The American people, by greater foresight than we are exercising, realized that the only way in which to build up the iron and steel industry was to impose high duties. For many years the imposition was equal to 80s. per ton. Ultimately the duty was reduced to 75s. There were two results. The first of these was that the production of America was vastly increased, and more than supplied the home market, and the second was that with the increased production, the cost to the consumer fell considerably. I am in a position to quote highly authoritative figures which conclusively demonstrate that the outcome of the exceedingly high duties imposed was not an increase in the price of commodities to the primary producer, but the very reverse. That has been the experience of the world. America could never have established her iron and steel industries but for the imposition of high duties, because from the moment of their inauguration those activities would have been overwhelmed by importations of English products, in which country similar industries had been established for a very long while. It was due to the erection of the high Protective wall that the American industries were so flourishingly established as to attain vast proportions, while, at the same time, there was a striking decrease of prices to the consumer. And there was this complementary result' that prices of competitors in the Mother Country were also brought down. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Has the effect been to reduce the .prices of agricultural tools and implements here? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- Yes ; and that can be demonstrated very easily. We need not be much alarmed by this proposed increase of duty, since it can be shown that it is not paid by the consumer. We realize that the iron and steel industry is essential for Australia, and that it is the duty of Parliament to give whatever protection that industry requires. The great point emphasized by the honorable member for Dampier was that it had not been demonstrated that a duty is required at all. I shall quote illustrations to show how essential is the imposition of a duty. I draw my facts from a statement furnished by the Industries Protection League, upon whose figures I can absolutely rely. I have before me a statement showing comparative prices of British, Continental, and Australian steel products. For example, the landed price, duty paid, of pig iron in Australia is £10 15s. 6d., and the cost of producing here at local works is £9 2s. 6d. The landed price per ton of ingots, blooms, billets, &c, from the Continent is £10. With duty added, the price is £13 5s. landed here. The Broken Hill Proprietary works cannot turn out the same line of product under £14 10s. per ton. Then, with respect to bars, rods, angles, and tees, the landed cost here today from the Continent is £17, while the actual cost of production in Australia is £21 10s. The landed cost of bars, &c., from Great Britain, of course^ including duty, is £19 14s., and, as I said, the cost here is £21 10s. The landed cost here of rails, 60 lbs., 45 feet in length, is £17 4s., but they cannot be produced here for less than £17 17s. 6d. Joists, channels, and girders from the Continent cost £18 landed in Australia, duty paid, and the cost to produce here is £22 10s. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Why does not the honorable member quote the British prices ? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I am quoting the price of our competitors on the Continent. Honorable members must realize that we cannot obtain the whole of our requirements from Great Britain; and if they study the question they will see that many of our importations in this direction come from Belgium and Germany. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Cannot we get nearly all that we require from Great Britain? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Not at the price. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I was explaining that joists, channels, and girders landed in Australia from the Continent cost £18, and we cannot produce them here under £22 10s. I have only given a few instances, including one British, example. We have to consider whether we are to encourage these industries in Australia, or to allow them to be crushed out of existence by importation from abroad. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Were those figures designed with the idea of showing that Protection makes the articles mentioned cheaper ? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- The experience in America proves conclusively that high protective duties reduce the cost to the consumer, as the industries are established and expand. We can, of course, throw open our ports, and allow goods to come from abroad free of duty ; but in doing so we will annihilate our industries and bring disaster on the community by causing unemployment and higher prices ; by so doing we place ourselves at the mercy of the foreign exporter. We have to consider whether the proposed duties are reasonable. The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** said twelve months ago that 20s. per ton was a fair rate; but we have to realize that, owing to altered circumstances .which have arisen in consequence of the increased costs, that that duty now represents only 6s. I admit that this is a difficult matter to adjust; but I repeat what I have previously said, that we should appoint a Tariff Board, whose duty it would be to fully investigate the conditions under which protected industries were operating, and if it were discovered that too high a duty was being imposed, or that advantage was being taken of the Tariff, the Board could recommend Parliament to adjust the duty, and thus create fair and reasonable competition. The honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** does us a great injustice when he suggests that we are creating monopolies. We have no desire to do that. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- That is what you are doing. ^ {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I would sooner assist in creating a monopoly within Australia than support one operating abroad. In America monopolies were created, but they were dealt with under the antitrust laws. If combines are created here as the result of a Protective Tariff, it will be open to us to deal with them. This is a key industry, and it is admitted by every honorable member that it is one that should be encouraged. We should not take any risks, and if the Committee is satisfied that the industry requires further protection w enable it to expand, and that we are justified in accepting the assurances that have been give*., we mud not ignore the claims made. I trust a,fi Minister will investigate the matter, and let the Committee know if he considers the amendment to be proposed by the honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** fair and reasonable in the circumstances. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- What about a bounty? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I am not very keen on bounties. This is a real and fundamental means of making this key" industry of Australia a great and expanding one, and the recognised process of assisting it is by imposing protective duties under the Tariff. {: #subdebate-17-0-s10 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- One does not mind figures being quoted with the idea of opposing or supporting an item in the Tariff schedule if they are within the range of reason; but when inaccurate figures are submitted, such as are those quoted by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory),** a word or two in reply is necessary. Tn opposing higher duties, the honorable member quoted the richness of the ore from Iron Knob as compared with that mined in other .parts of the world. According to analyses the iron contents of American ore from Lake Superior ranges from 55 per cent, upwards. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The Broken Hill people must be liars, because I quoted from their report; {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- The percentage of metallic iron in the ore raised in Great Britain is 50 to 55, whilst that from India contains 65 to 68 per cent, of metallic iron. The ore produced in Spain, Sweden, and Luxembourg is also very rich. Iron Knob is acknowledged to be the richest deposit, but its extent and richness is not anything like what the honorable member1 would lead one to believe. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- What is the percentage of iron in the ore from Iron Knob? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- I have not the figures before me. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- I have been informed that it is the richest and cleanest in the world. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Assuming that it is richer than ore mined in other paits of the world, it doesnotprovethe statement ofthehonorable member for Dampier thatitis twice as rich. The American railway companies grant special freight concessions in carrying ore to the principal -works throughout the States; but Iron Knob is a considerable distance from the port of Newcastle, and as all the carriage is by water, harbor and other dues are incurred. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- But water carriage is cheap. Mr.WATKINS. -The honorable member is quite wrong there. Only a little time ago we heard him complaining of the high freights on the Australian coast. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- But this boat belongs to the Broken Hill Company. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- Does the honorable member imagine that one boat or one mine can supply the present requirements of the works at Newcastle? {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- The honorable member is not complaining, I suppose, of the quality and price of coal. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- I want to say that, as late as 22nd March, the price of coal in America was reduced to 3 dollars 36 cents per ton, or 17s. 3d., as compared with 21s. per ton, the price at which it can now be obtained at Newcastle. That has to betaken into consideration, and also the fact that there has been a reduction of some 4s. to 6s. per ton inthe price of coal inBelgium, and on the Continent, where coal mines are now operating. All that I am concerned about is the adjustment of the duty tobring it up to the equivalent of what it was when the Tariff was laid on the table. The honorable member forWide Bay **(Mr. Corser)** questioned whether the increased duties I propose would not cover some of the items which are not produced here. I am able to inform him that everything in the schedule on which I ask for an increased duty is being produced at the Newcastle works, and also at the Lithgow works, in sufficient quantity to supply any orders that come along. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- What about our export trade? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS: -- We shall be lucky if we can supply our own requirements for some years to come. I move - >That the following words be added to sub- item (a):- " And on and after 2nd June, 1921, per ton, British, 30s.; intermediate, 45s.; general, 60s. If these increases are agreed to, they will bring the duty to about what it was, in effect, when the Tariff was laid on the table. We set out with a view to the establishment of these works in this country, and while I should have preferred that they should be conducted as a national undertaking, I say that, having been established, they give employment to a great number of men directlyand indirectly throughout the Commonwealth, and they should be supported. {: #subdebate-17-0-s11 .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART:
Wimmera .- This is a very important item, because, as has been stated more than once, it affects a key industry. If we agree to the amendment, the result will be that steel and iron used in the production of agricultural implements, fencing wire, and other manufactures, will be increased in price, and quite naturally those conducting the secondary industries will pass on the increase in price to their customers. This wealthy company is asking for more protection. What does it want to be protected from? I have heard no one suggest what this company requires to be protected from. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Is this not an infant industry ? {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- It is an infant industry, but it will be admitted that it is a fairly lusty infant. We have always heard as the chief argument for the imposition of Protective duties that they are necessary to enable a struggling industry to get upon its feet. If the Broken Hill Company and other companies engaged in this industry are not on their feet now, when are they going to be in that position ? As I have previously said, as these industries grow, the more insatiable becomes their appetite for higher Protective duties. I should not be surprised if the amendment were passed, because our experience of the consideration of this Tariff has been that if an honorable member moves for an increase of 10, 15, 100, or 150 per cent. on the duties proposed, he stands a first-class chance of getting his amendment through. The object of the proposed increase of duty is to enable the Broken Hill and other companies to raise their prices. Who is going to pay the increase ? In the case of fencing wire and agricultural implements, it is the man on the land who will have to pay it. Whom is he going to pass the increase on to ? I wish . that some ef the-cb&mpians . of these monopokata.in this country, would teU me and. the primary produoerw in. general whom they are. to. pass, these. increases on to. We know ' that. ibis, wealthy company is asking for . protection really, from the operation of the world's parity . which tfiSy insist that the primary producer shall conform to. Immediately the price of primary products in this country rises a fraction above what it. is in: the markets of. the "world, . there:is criticism, of the nn> fortunate- primary producer, who is told that, he -must accept, the world's parity, and, should ask for no more. These, socalled . infant industries are not to be' restricted in that . -way. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- That is not the Labour party's policy. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- Judging from interjections, speeches, and some of the votes of honorable members opposite, it is very difficult to understand what the Labour party's actual policy is. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Their policy is that they do not know what they want, and keep on asking for it. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- I do not propose to spoak at any length. My experience is that it-is of little use to say anything in regard to- this- Tariff. No 'matter how irrefutable one's; arguments may be, if ' they are. in; -advocacy of lower duties they- will not reeeivo the: slightest attention. The primary producers who are using the products of the- steel industry and other, industries, in Australia have to. sell in the. markets of ' the world, and. their . wages, are.Free Trade wages. We-. are told. that it is unfair te expect the white. Australian workers employed, in this industry, and in. other, city factories to compete- with black-labour rates;, but the men -on -the land, who use the implements which those factories produce, have to submit to black-labour rates, not- only overseas, but within the Commonwealth. That- assertion has not been squarely faced by any honorablemember; except;- strangely enough, theMinister **(Mr. Greene).** The honorable gentleman admitted that it was unjust to ask the primary- producers. to sell- at export parity when' they had' to pay 'import parity for the means of production. He admitted that. if they, were forced to pay import prices for their -means' of product tion they should, be entitled, te import prices, for what they- . produced. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- I" am glad to hear that "Hear, hear!" but if a proposition were submitted that the prices of meat, wheat, and butter in Australia' should be the import parity, how many "Hear, hears!"' would greet it? How many votes would bc cast for such a proposition! These wealthy monopolies, these " infant industries,"' as' they are called, must be protected from world's parity, and the unfortunate straggler in the bush, who, in many cases, is working, not eight hears, but fourteen hours, a day - ^working under conditions which the honorable member's constituents would not stand for. twentyfour hours - must " pay the piper" in order that the industries in our big capital cities shall nourish. Honorable numbers opposite support these high duties because they think they, mean more factories, and more factories mean greater competition for labour. They lose sight of the fact that high i duties also mean that labour must pay higher prices for what it consumes. Let this state of affairs go on. Let the organized capitalists of Australia fight for higher duties, and the organized' Labourites support them! Let this unholy alliance go on, and, sooner or latej, a day of reckoning will come. ' The primary producer to-day is having a hard time. Honorable members opposite talk of the hard times of the workers in our cities; but I would remind them of the low prices which the men on the land today are receiving for wool, sheep-sking, meat, butter, and all other products/except . wheat. I hope that the Committee will not only reject the amendment providing for an increased duty, but will vote for the further amendment which the. honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** intends to move for a reduction of 'the - existing duty. {: #subdebate-17-0-s12 .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
Illawarra -- It is rather perplexing to hear coming from the Corner party objections to a, union of- Capital and Labour. I.have always: been: under the. impression . that /one of the great objects of . the: party, and:of many other people in- the country, has been to bring about that happy state of affairs which, the . honorable member for Wimmera- **(Mr. Stewart)** says, this . Tariff is going to produce. The honorable member has asked several times, "Who is going to pay the increasedcost of commodities which will result from the higher duties for which, the Tariff provides? " So far as most of them go, they will be paid by the people who ultimately consume the products affected, and in the case of the industry in which he is particularly interested, they will be paid mostly by the city consumers, of bread. That the honorable member should have worked himself into such a fury over the proposal to give this industry some protection, when, at the present moment, his industry is enjoying a protection that it never had before, in that it is permitted tosell its produce here far above world's parity, seems to me not to be in the best of taste. I had, however, desired rather to direct my attention to some of the remarks made by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory).** In the course of his speech, the honorable member expressed the hope-a hope that I do not think he reallycherishes-that our conditions would be reduced to those of the countries with which we have to compete. At a later stage he said that he. wanted the workers of Australia to be more happily placed than those of. other, lands. Many of our industries are competing with the products ofverylow-wage countries. Conditions in Australia are not the same as those of any other country, with the exception, perhaps, of America, and I, for one, do not write myself down with those who think that the ills of the Commonwealth can be cured by a general reduction in wages. I have yet to learn that the high-wage country is not always the best country for all the industries carried on in it, and it should be the object of our statesmen to establish the highest standard of living that is possible in all the' industries conducted here. I make that statement with the knowledge that at times some of bur industries require consideration from those engaged in them, and that consideration should be given. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Does the honorable member think that some industries should be built up at the expense of others? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- Some of our industries should be built up at the expense of the general community,and unless we are prepared to do that we shall neverbea self-contained nation. The honorable member for Dampier called attention to the fact that one or two members of the Government wereFree Trade champions some years ago. **Mr. (Stewart.** - In their hearts some of them are Free Trade champions to-day. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- The honorable member apparently has power to read hearts, and so has a lower conception of humanity, than have others from whom that power is fortunately withheld. I am one of those who started in politics as a believer in Free Trade principles. But I do not regard it as a reproach to be told that I have departed very far from many views which I believed to be right when I was youug. It would be a matter for regret if the people of this country, particularly those charged with its government, should have a quarter of a century's experience of changing conditions without being able to adapt their conclusions to the altered circumstances in which they find themselves. The honorable member for Dampier is one of the few people I have come in contact with on whom the war has made no impression, and to whom it has taught nothing. If the war has left any great lessons, surely the first is that this country to endure must be made self-contained. Mr.BRENNAN.-The war did not affect the law of gravitation to any great extent. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I am afraid the war did not affect the centre of gravitation so far as thehonorable member's 'political principles are concerned -they remain constant and quite outside Australia. As I say, the war has taught us' that for its safety the nation should be self-contained. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- With preference to the Old Country. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- As against her competitors, but not as against the best interests of Australia. Those who wish well to the Empire may stand with those who say that Australia shall be self-contained, even if we say that those things we can produce shall not be received from outside, even from Great Britain herself. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Wave our flag - the dear old Union Jack. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I point outthat we are not waving the flag of Great Britain, hut the flag of the British Empire of which we are as much a part asGreat Britain is. If we do our work wellin Australia, we are promoting, not only our own interests, but the interests of every part of the Empire. The narrow view which honorable members opposite attribute to those who preach Empire solidarity is not the view of those who see furthest as to what the course of Empire will be. As to the iron and steel industry generally, 1 hold the view that it is hardly possible to name a price too high to pay for its establishment within the Commonwealth. I give credit to the men who control the industries associated with the steel works at Newcastle and Port Kembla forthe example they set to other manufacturers in regard to the fixing of prices. It would certainly make it much easier to frame a Tariff if all the manufacturers followed the wise policy of making their price, not the highest possible inside the Tariff, but a price representing a fair return for the work put into the goods they sell. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- It is a remarkable exception. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- It is an exception that ought to be noted, and it stands to the credit of, those who control the industry. And it is not the characteristicof those men alone ; good men who conduct their business honestly are blamed for the sins of others who exact the uttermost farthing the Tariff allows; and it is the latter class that makes the framing of a Tariff so difficult. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -What would you do with those people? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I would hand them over to the tender mercies of a Labour Government. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- That would only make them worse. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- It ought to make them bettor. The honorable member for Dampier sought to raise the threadbare cry of " country *versus* city." **Mr. Stewart.** - It is about time it was raised. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- It is raised by men who have very little to support the attitude they adopt; men who very often overlook the fact that the people who carry on the secondary industries in the cities are working for the people in the country. Mr.Stewart. - In the city they work eight hours a day, while those in the country work twelve. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I do. not know how the honorable member can do his twelve hours on his farm after his sixteen hours' work in Parliament, but I suppose he manages to do it. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -Why sneer? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- In the honornble member for Grampians **(Mr. Jowett)** I try to find some sign of the wretched down-trodden primary producer. Let Australia look to that gentleman as an example of therewards which slavery on the land may bring; at any rate, I can only say that if those who, according to the honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart),** go on the land to " slave," can all secure similar results, the secondary producers must pnvy them, and certainly no amount of protection could keep people off the land. Alongside this attempt to set city against country there is evidence that almost every year the amounts paid to landlords for the privilege of working their land are increasing. I suggest to the reformers that they examine a little more closely the money thus exacted by people who render no service to the industry, and that they have a little less to say about those who in thecities are earning all the money they are paid for services rendered to primary industry. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The honorable member, of course, is referring to city landlords. **Mr. HECTOR** LAMOND. - The landlords are just as oppressive in the cities as in the country. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The landlord is not an oppressor in the country. I have never met one, or heard of one, who can be so classed. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- There are portions of my electorate where £120an acre is being paid for land that honorable members contend will produce nothing but slavery. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson: -- Order! Will the honorable member show the connexion between his remarks and the question before the Chair ? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I do not know that I can show any more connexion than the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** could have shown if you had asked him the same question when he was speaking. {: #subdebate-17-0-s13 .speaker-10000} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! The honorable member is out of order. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I can connect my remarks in this way: The honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** pointed out that the whole burden of the duties we are considering is going to be paid by the agricultural industries. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- I did not say the whole burden. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- The honorable member professed to mention the people on whom the burden will fall, but he did not get beyond the primary producer in the list he gave. This is not a question of city *versus* country, or of primary producers *versus* secondary producers. It is a question of the establishment in Australia of certain industries which are necessary to our existence as a nation, and without which no country can continue undermodern conditions to exist. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Your point is that the secondary industries are the primary industries? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I should not mind attempting to demonstrate that, because these secondary industries are essential . to the. conduct of the primary industries. The only question we have to decide is whether they shall be conducted in Australia, or somewhere else. The honorable member for Wimmera is not going to cultivate his land with tho old wooden plough of the Eastern peoples. Ho is going to cultivate it with modern machinery, which must be made either in or out of Australia. He is going to give employment to the people in Australia, or to their competitors outside Australia. In that matter, the honorable member has no choice. If he is going to conduct his industry on modern lines, he must em ploy somebody in secondary industries. In every step he takes,, from the time ho rises in the morning until he goes to bed at night, in all the articles he uses when he takes his food, and in everything he employs to equip himself for the work he does during the day - in every operation that he pursues, he must employ secondary industries; and the choice that is left to him is not the choice of whether people shall be employed in the cities or in the country, but of whether in the secondary industries which are essential to his work he shall employ people in his own country, or the cheap labour of other countries. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- It depends upon the conditions under which we shall employ them. . {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- If the industries are established here, those conditions' will be decided by the Australian people. They will besuch as the Australian people approve; but if the argument of the honorable member for Dampier is to prevail, and we are to look to the cheap labour of the Eastern countries as the standard to be set up here, then not only will the secondary industries of this country fade away, but the primary industries will be reduced to the same level as their competitors across the sea. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The primary producers have to take those wages now. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Does, not the honorable member for Dampier's amendmentoffer a preference to Great Britain ? {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- I am talking, not of the honorable member for Dampier's amendment, but of his argument. If we are to maintain that standard of living which the Australian people believe to be essential, wecannot allow the competitionof nationswhose conditions are less favorable than our own. The honorable member forFranklin **(Mr. McWilliams),** in a tone oftriumph, pointed out that the Newcastle steel works employed their own ships. What difference does that make to the argument? The honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** pointed out that they do not employ their own ships. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- That was only in answer to the argument about very high freights. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -Even if they did employ their own ships, they have to man them under the same conditions as are observed by those who charge freights on the Australian coast, they' have to pay the same harbor dues, and they must recognise the standards of living that the Australian people think desirable. Erom those points of view, they are under different conditions from their competitors on the other side of the world, who may also own their own ships, and may also cut out every item of expenditure that they can possibly cut out in the conduct of their work. While I am not prepared to set up such a Tariff wall as will impose great restrictions upon the industries using the products of these great secondary industries, I am prepared to go as far as the Minister will go in this section of the Tariff. I believe that nothing but good can come to Australia from the establishment of these metal industries within our borders. Any one who goes to Newcastle to-day can see there, in twenty-four hours, an object-lesson that ought to convince even the honorable member for Wimmera that the interests of the primary producers are wrapped up in the development of our secondary industries, as much as the interests of the workers are. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Why can they not build themselves up without these tremendous duties? The primary producer has to do it. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- The Chairman will not allow me to fellow the speakers who preceded me on that argument, but the primary producers of this country have been assisted by the Government time and time again. We have done things to encourage the primary industries that have not been done for these secondary industries. If the primary industries require Protection for their development, I know of no. Government in this country, Labour or National, that is not prepared to give -them the assistance they need. Mr.Stewart. - The moment we get id. above world's parity, there is an uproar in this country. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr HECTOR LAMOND: -- But is it anything to the uproar the honorable member makes when some other industry gets a little advantage which he thinks is at his expense? No matter what we do in this Parliament, there will be an uproar. What we must do iswhat isbest for Australia. We cannot hopeto escape criticism for our actions. If we do things in the interests of Australia, we shall offend those who wish to exploit Australia. Our duty is to do the best we can to establish the primary industries, and, when they are established, to do the best we can to maintain sucha line of secondary industries as will make Australia self-reliant and self-dependent. {: #subdebate-17-0-s14 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- I shall support the proposal of the honorable member for Newcastle(Mr. Watkins). We live in exceptional times, and unless we adopt precautionary methods iron supplies will be dumped in our market very frequently. In a letter that I have here it is stated that, whereas Australian steel bars cost £23 5s. a ton in Melbourne, wholesale lots can be landed from Belgium - a country that has been left out of the calculations of most honorable members to-night - for £17 a ton, including the present duty. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Can you verify those figures ? . {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Yes. Why are supplies dumped in Australia at prices lower than the cost of production? It is to kill the local manufacturingindustries, so that when their competition hasbeen removed **Mr. Farmer** and the rest of the community can be made by the importers to pay through the nose. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- We have been told that for the past twenty years, and yet prices have been soaring steadily notwithstanding the import duties. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The honorable member himself was a Protectionist when the proposal was to protect the onion and the banana growers. We heard nothing from him in opposition to them. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- What could I do? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The honorable member could have roared against them as he is roaring now. The honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** was silent as a tombstone when it was proposed to put duties on onions and millet; but when it comes to protecting what is one of the key industries of the country, and doing what is needed in the interests of the Australian people, a howl of indignation comes from him and from the corner of the chamber where he sits. The relations of the countries, of Europe are not the same to-day as they were two and a half years ago. Germany was then our enemy and Belgium our ally; but to-day, from the trade point of view, both are our enemy. As an Australian and as an Australian legislator, if I have to choose between an Australian and a foreign combination I must choose the former. Some honorable members say that, we are giving a monopoly to the Broken Hill Company and to Messrs. Hoskins; but I rely absolutely on the promise of the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene),** although I differ from him politically, that as soon as the Tariff is out of the way a Bill will be introduced to constitute a Board of Trade whose special duty it will be to see that no manufacturers who enjoy Protection shall fleece the public. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Why this sudden implicit belief in the promises of the Minister {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am glad that the honorable gentleman intends to place on the statute-book one of the planks of the Labour platform, and to give effect to the New Protection. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Are you sure he will do it? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am. If I were not, my attitude towards some of the proposed duties would be different. Today the exchange rates operate largely in favour of Germany and Belgium against Australia, and put those countries in almost as favorable a position for competing against us as if wo had no Tariff. The object of importers is to destroy the local manufactures, and to recoup themselves later for the initial losses they may be forced to incur. They do this at the expense of the consumers of Australia. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- When Denmark undercuts the butter producers of Australia, they have to grin and bear it. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Every Australian butter producer would be glad to receive always for his butter the price the Danish butter brings on the London market. The honorable member has spoken of a com- bination between the capitalist and the worker as unholy ; but the members of the Country party are in alliance with the biggest exploiters of the Commonwealth, the importers of Flinders-lane and other importers. I would rather be in the company of the manufacturers of Australia than in that of the importers of Flinders-lane. This is an industry that has been established in Australia, and if honorable members care to look back over the records, they will find that during war-time the Broken Hill Proprietary Company could have obtained London prices for their iron and steel products for railway and shipbuilding purposes, but made them available at several pounds per ton below London quotations. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- You had better not say too much about the shipbuilding industry. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I know as much about that as the honorable member. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- No, you do not. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I think I do. I remind him that the Public Accounts Committee, of which I am a member, made full inquiries into all phases of the shipbuilding industry. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- I know you did; but your report is not worth much. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I think it will be worth a good deal more than that which the honorable member will sign shortly. I am prepared to stand by that report. I think the honorable member will find that its recommendations will stand good for many years to come. But for the establishment of these iron and steel works in Australia our railway construction works would have been held up during war-time, and I point out to honorable members of the Country party, who are always talking about decentralization, that in the steel works at Newcastle and Lithgow we have the finest examples it i3 possible to get. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- We do not object to them. We are pleased to know that they are established, but it is a question of the conditions under which they shall be carried on. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- It appears that the honorable member for Wimmera, since he has resumed his seat, has discovered that these are fine industries for Australia, although, when he was on his feet, he was denouncing everything in general and the Broken Hill Proprietary Company in particular. I do not know why. I am not fighting for any particular Combine myself, but I repeat that if it is a question of choosing between an Australian and an English, American, German, or Belgian Combine, my choice will be for the Australian every time, because I want to do what littleIcan to establish key industries here so that Australia may be a self-contained nation. If we can only develop the iron and steel, the woollen, and the cement industries, we shall be able to provide employment, not only for the men and women of Australia, but for a large number of people from other parts of the world, in the manufacture of goods for our own requirements without the export trade at all. Is that not a desirable objective, andone worthy of attainment? {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- But why cannot it be done under the old Tariff? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** a little while ago quoted **Mr. Delprat,** the general manager of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company as saying, in 1912, that once the iron industry was fairly established, they were prepared to meet competition from any part qf the world. Since then the whole world has been revolutionized. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- Made safe for Democracy. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I will not say that Neither has it been made safe for autocracy, because crowned heads have been tumbling one after another. I remind the honorable member for Wimmera that in 1920 **Mr. Delprat** was very emphatic in stating that unless the iron and steel industry were protected by the Tariff from dumping, his company could not possibly carry on. He was then thinking of the condition of shipbuilding in other parts of the world. I think the honorable member for Franklin **(Mr. McWilliams)** will bear me out when I say that it was impossible to get a quotation from English shipbuilding yards for the constructionof vessels at about that time. The yards would only undertake to build at a certain rate which averaged about £35 per ton, whereas in Australia the cost was about £30 per ton. The honorable member for Dampier says there is no difference now. As a matter of fact, there is. I believe that ships, which in 1920 cost to build about £35 per ton in England, may now be built for about £10 per ton. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928 -- But while material is getting cheaper here, the costof shipbuilding is higher. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I think it comes out at about £29 or £30 per ton. Progress reported. House adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 1 June 1921, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1921/19210601_reps_8_95/>.