House of Representatives
19 May 1921

8th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Deputy Speaker (Hon. J. M. Chanter) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 8531

QUESTION

BREAK OF RAILWAY GAUGES

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Minister for Works and Railways say when we are likely to have a report from the Commission that hasbeen appointed to investigate a method of overcoming the difficulties caused by breaks in railway gauges?

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · NAT

– I have no definite information on the subject, but I shall make inquiry, and let the honorable member know the result.

page 8531

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH POPULATION

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– When are we likely to have the census return of the population in each State of the Commonwealth ?

Mr WISE:
Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– I shall ascertain, and let the honorable member know.

page 8531

QUESTION

AMALGAMATION OF TAXATION DEPARTMENTS

Tasmania

Mr JACKSON:
BASS, TASMANIA

– Has the Acting Prime Minister received word from the Tasmanian Government about the amalgamation of the Taxation Departments of the Commonwealth and the States ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am not aware, at the moment, but I should like to say that the only Government that has taken advantage of the arrangement so far is that of Western Australia, and, in a communication which I received from the Premier of that State this morning, he expresses satisfaction that the arrangement has been made, and the hope that it may be the forerunner of other arrangements to the mutual advantage of the Commonwealth and the States.

page 8531

QUESTION

HISTORY OF THE WAR

Mr RILEY:

– Can the Acting Minis ter for Defence tell us when the history of the war which is being written by Captain Bean will be issued ? Is any part of it completed?

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I cannot say offhand whether any part of Captain Bean’s work is ready for publication, or at what stage the work is, but I shall obtain information on the subject.

page 8531

QUESTION

NOTE ISSUE

Mr LIVINGSTON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Treasurer say what is the position of the Commonwealth Note Issue as compared with that of other countries since the Armistice ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Our note issue is less now than it was at the time of the Armistice, and Australia is almost the only country in which the note issue has not increased in that period. In almost every other country it has increased. In Great Britain the increase amounted to 22 per cent., and even in America there has been an increase. Here there has been a decrease in the issue.

page 8531

PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE

Appointment of Mr. Jackson

Motion (by Sir Joseph Cook) agreed to-

That the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson) be appointed a member of the Parliamentary. Standing Committee on Public Works in the place of the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson), resigned.

page 8531

QUESTION

GERMAN NEW GUINEA

Buying Board

Mr GIBSON:
for Mr. Fleming

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

In connexion with the Buying Board created under the Expropriation Board of German New Guinea, is it the intention of the Government to appoint certain Sydney firms to act in conjunction with such Board or agency?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There is no such intention.

page 8531

QUESTION

WOOLLEN IMPORTS

Mr LAZZARINI:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether he will inform the House -

What was the annual value of the importation of -woollen goods into Australia for the years 1909-1919.

What was the amount received as Customs revenue yearly on woollen goods for the same period.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is not possible to give the whole of the information asked for by the honorable member, as all woollen goods imported are not recorded separately. The following statement shows the annual value of such woollen goods as are recorded separately in the Statistical Classification which were imported intothe Commonwealth from 1909 to1919-1920,also the gross Customs duty collected on such goods for the same years. The goods concerned are flannels, woollens n.e.i, wool yarns, and wool-felt hats. Woollen socks and stockings imported since 1918-19 are also included, prior to which date they were not recorded separately.

page 8532

QUESTION

BOOK AND PARCEL POST

Mr GIBSON:
for Mr. Fleming

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

  1. What is the difference between book post and parcel post as defined in the existing regulations ?
  2. Are those regulations making trade more difficult for booksellers?
Mr WISE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The charges fixed by theRates Act for books are - Books printed outside Australia, except as prescribed, -1d. per 4 ozs. or part of 4 ozs- ; books printed in Australia, except as prescribed -1d. per8 ozs. or part of 8 ozs. The charges for parcels are fixed by regulation, and the present rates are - For delivery within the State, 6d. for the first 1 lb. and 3d. for each succeeding 1 lb. up to 11 lbs..: for InterState delivery, fid. fur the first 1 lb. and6d. for each succeeding 1 lb. up to 11 lbs.
  2. Not that the Department is aware of: the relative regulations have been in operation for many years.

page 8532

QUESTION

NATIONAL HEALTH POLICY

Mr GIBSON:
for Dr. Earle Page

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether the Government has taken any steps to bring into effect the recommendations made by the Australian Medical Congress at Brisbane, in August, 1020, with regard to national health policy; if so, what stage has been arrived at?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Government intend to develop investigation and control of diseases in the tropical dependencies and tropical portions of the Commonwealth, devoting particular attention to conditions affecting the life of women in the tropics; to conduct investigations in certain important phases of industrial hygiene, and to assist in the investigation and control of’ preventable diseases generally. Substantial assistance has been promised to carry out this policy by the Rockefeller Institute of America. A Department of Health has been created and preliminary steps in preparation are being taken. It is not proposed to incur any expenditure without the approval of Parliament.

page 8532

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCE GRAVES

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT

– On the 20th April, the honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. Cameron) asked the following questions: -

  1. Whether the graves of all members of the Australian Imperial Force buried in the Desert of Sinai, Palestine, and Syria have been located?
  2. Has the work of identification and establishment of centralcemeteries been completed ?
  3. Where are the central cemeteries situated?

I replied to the questions, and stated that litter information would be furnished to the honorable member when replies were received to cabled inquiries on the subject. I am now able to inform the honorable member that the number of graves unlocated in Sinai is 44, in Palestine 194, and in Syria 3. The exhumations have ceased, and the bodies of Australians have been finally concentrated in the following military cemeteries : - Sinai, Kantara Cemetery, Port Said, Palestine, Haifa, Ramleh, Jerusalem, Gaza, Belah, Beersheba, Syria, Damascus, and Beyrout.

page 8533

QUESTION

SEMI-OFFICIAL POST-OFFICES

BasicWage.

Mr WISE:
NAT

– Yesterday the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Parker Moloney) asked whether consideration had been given to the question of granting the basic wage increase to semi-official postmasters and employees of semi-official offices. I have made inquiries and find that the basic wage which is applicable to permanent officers of the Commonwealth Public Service has been granted to semi-official postmasters and postmistresses and to full time employees at semi-official post-offices. The increase operates as from 1st November, 1920, the date from which the increase was granted to permanent officers.

page 8533

MARIBYRNONG HORSEBREEDING ESTABLISHMENT

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT

– On 5th May the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Livingston) asked if I would obtain a report of the cost of the horsebreeding establishment at Maribyrnong and the revenue derived from it up to date. I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

The breeding establishment at Maribyrnong was formed in October, 1917, and was discontinued in February, 1920. The mares used were selected from those on hand, none being purchased for the purpose. These have now boon returned to their usual work. The stallions were purchased for 800 guineas, one of which was sold, on disbandment of the stud, for 2,100 guineas, the other being retained for the use of public mares at a fee of 3 guineas. The other two stallions used were presented to the Department, and are now located in Kew South Wales and South Australia for the use of public mares at 3 guineas. The cost of maintaining the stallions whilst the stud was in operation was £338. The cost of maintaining the mares over the same period was £3,570. The cost of maintenance of the progeny to date is £676. The only revenue received from the stud has been 2,100 guineas for the stallion Piastre, and £272 from the service of privately-owned mares last season; but it may be added that the stallions are valued at £1,000, and the young stock at £2,000, and it is estimated that the stallions will earn in fees next season 400 guineas, and their maintenance for the year will not exceed £100. No additional men were employed in connexion with the stud, all work being done by the Remount Section. The stud was worked from the Remount Depot, Maribyrnong, and mares on being stinted were placed on agistment.

page 8533

SALE OF THE SHANDON

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yesterday, the honorable member for Oxley (Mr. Bayley) asked me what the Shandon cost to buy, what was paid for refitting her after purchase, and what she was sold for. The facts, so far as I remember them, are these: The vessel was bought for £7,000 at a time when we were laying hold of anything we could get about the coast to meet the exigencies of the moment, and cost about £26,000 to refit. The vessel was eventually sold as a coal hulk for about £4,000,, but in the meantime she had earned £39,000 profit. We got out of the whole transaction with £3,000 or £4,000 to the good, and considering that she was purchased in a time of stress when we had to secure whatever was available, I think it will be admitted that the vessel has served her purpose.

page 8533

PAPER

The following paper was presented: -

Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1921, Nos. 80, 95, 99, 100.

page 8533

QUESTION

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means:

Considerationresumed from 18th May (vide page 8530) :

Item 55 -

Infants’ and invalids’ foods as prescribed by departmental by-laws. Free.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- Under this item infants’ and invalids’ foods are to be admitted free, and I think that is very wise, because every one will admit that it should be our endeavour to allow these commodities to be sold at a reasonable price in the interests of the invalids and infants in our community. But I desire to place before the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) the position in regard to groats and barley which, I presume, would be classified under this heading as infants’ and invalids’ foods. I have been informed that groats and barley are not so classified under State Acts, which provide that these commodities shall not be used for infants’ food until a child is at least six months of age. It seems hardly fair that groats and barley should be admitted into the Commonwealth free, in view of the fact that they are manufactured in Australia., and cannot be used as food for infants of all ages. If the Minister makes inquiries he will find that groats and barley are manufactured here in a form that makes them suitable for breakfast foods, and therefore importations should be dutiable.

Mr Bowden:

– But they are of benefit to invalids.

Mr CHARLTON:

– That may be so. But barley and groats cannot be used for infants until they reach a certain age. Barley may be used in the preparation of barley water or something of that nature for the use of weaklings; but the Pure Foods Acts passed by State Legislatures practically debarred the use of barley and groats for infants.

Mr Bowden:

– But it is used.

Mr CHARLTON:

– It may be to a small degree ; but as we manufacture these commodities in Australia I would like to know whether the Minister thinks it wise to allow them to remain on the free list?

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I discussed the question of infants’ and invalids’ foods in the course of the general debate, and on this item - but perhaps not so much as on item 174 - I would like the Committee to determine whether the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) shall have power to allow goods to be admitted free or not. I want to know whether the Committee will limit the power of the Minister, or whether he is to be the determining factor in deciding whether goods shall be admitted free or not? I think we should also determine if the Minister is to have the power to impose a duty if Parliament has said that such articles as infants’ foods shall be admitted free. When previously discussing this matter I referred to Horlick’s malted milk. I do not know anything concerning the firm handling this product, but I received a circular letter, and after reading it I came to the conclusion that as Horlick’s malted milk had been used in and around Melbourne and elsewhere as a beverage, the Minister had decided that it should be removed from the list of infants’ foods. On page 56 of the Customs by-laws hon orable members will find a list of articles which have been allowed to come into this country as infants’ or invalids’ foods, and I think I am voicing the opinion of every honorable member in this House when I say that as far as infant life is concerned special foods required for invalids and infants and recommended by the medical profession should be admitted free. This item is connected with the milk industry, but I want to go further than support the imposition of a duty simply because it might be the means of benefiting an industry. We have to consider the community as a whole, and not the profit that would be derived by one section of the community. For its area New Zealand may be considered quite as great a milk producing country as Australia, and I find that in the New Zealand Tariff there is set out a list of the various foods admitted duty free. I am a little doubtful of the wisdom of adopting that course, because new foods may be imported.

Mr Watkins:

– We should know where we were if that course were adopted.

Mr GREGORY:

– It might be better if the list set out in the departmental bylaw were inserted in the Tariff. The Minister may question the accuracy of the statements made in the circular to which I have referred, but I suggest that it may be assumed that they are correct when I inform honorable members that the circular was sent from the office of the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best). He was the solicitor for these people in trying to keep the article placed on the free list. I do not know how the honorable member will argue on the question in this Chamber, but I suppose he will be quite justified personally in giving effect to the fiscal principles he has always expressed.

Mr Riley:

– What does the honorable member propose?

Mr GREGORY:

– That there . should be no duty on the article.

Mr Riley:

– It is free now.

Mr GREGORY:

– That is’ not so. I have explained that. Horlick’s malted milk was placed, with forty or fifty other foods examined by the Government Analyst, and pronounced to be invalid or infants’ foods on a list coming under item 55 of the Tariff, and being, therefore, duty free; but owing to certain representations made to the Department Horlick’s malted milk has been taken off the list of invalids’ and infants’ foods, and a duty is now charged upon it. The reason given for this, according to the circular to which I have referred, “is that the article is being sold in shops as a beverage. The statement is made in the circular that of the imports of this article only 8.31 per cent, goes into consumption as a beverage, leaving 91.69 per cent, to be consumed by invalids and infants.

Mr Mathews:

– There is more of the article used in the American bars “ in Sydney than by infants in Australia. .It has become a popular summer and winter drink.

Mr GREGORY:

– It ought to be a good thing for the manufacturers of the article if it is readily purchased as a beverage in the way suggested. I point out that it is very much dearer than locally manufactured foods. We are all agreed that infants’ and invalids’ foods should be .allowed to come into the country duty free. I want, to raise the question whether, when the Trade and Customs Department has admitted that certain foods are infants’ or invalids’ foods, the Minister should have the rightto remove them from the free list, because, in his opinion, they interfere with a certain industry in this country.

Mr Brennan:

– If he has that right he may alter the definition of any imported article.

Mr GREGORY:

– When we come to consider item 175 I intend to, show the extensive use that is made of the power of the Minister to alter the Tariff in the way I have mentioned. I believe that he has acted outside the law, and in ways that are most unjustifiable. If the Committee decides that the Minister should have this power he will be justified in exercising it, but I do not think that it is wise to place him in the position of being able to say that certain goods shall be admitted duty free, and certain other goods shall not, without the matter being considered by this Parliament.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– Whenever an attempt is made to introduce a reform there is always some objection urged against it. When the effort was made to secure better hours for shopkeepers, the case of the poor old widow who lived by keeping a shop was put forward as an objection. Now, when an attempt is made to levy a duty on an article which can, and should, be manufactured in Australia, the poor infants are used as a plea against it. Horlick’s malted milk is used to-day by twenty adults for every one infant using it. In Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane it is drunk ‘ wholesale in the milk and soda shops. In Pitt-street, Sydney, there must be seven or eight shops selling Horlick’s malted milk, though customers do not always get that brand when they ask for it. It is not a question of the poor infants at all. They are merely dragged out for a special purpose. This article is used extensively by adults, and manufacturers of similar foods in Australia should be given some Protection.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- Horlick’s malted milk is one , of the best infants’ foods we have.

Mr Fenton:

– Grandfather is speaking.

Mr BOWDEN:

– I am not yet a grandfather,, but I am a father, and I know that Horlick’s malted milk saved the life of one of my children. According to the circular quoted by the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) less than 9 per cent, of the imports of this article is used as a beverage by adults. It is one of the most expensive infants’ foods, that can be bought, and it does not come into competition with Australian foods, because they are very much cheaper. It is often ordered in special cases by medical men, and I hope that it will be retained on the free list.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- The Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton.) made an inquiry with respect to certain oat and barley preparations. They will fall under item 5S, “ Grain and pulse, prepared’ or manufactured,” and it is my intention to submit an amendment to paragraph e of that item which will further strengthen the existing position. With regard to the point raised by the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory), Parliament defined this item as “ Infants’ and invalids’ foods as prescribed by departmental by-laws.” la doing so, Parliament gave power to the Minister for Trade and Customs to prescribe certain things as infants’ and in.valids’ foods,, and it gave him power also not to do so. The position is that if the Minister does not prescribe any particular food as an infants’ or invalids’ food, it automatically becomes dutiable under one or other of the existing items of the Tariff. Speaking generally, Parliament agreed that all these articles should be dutiable, and then gave to the Minister for Trade and Customs power to prescribe certain articles in such a way as to bring them within the free list. That is the principle upon which the Tariff is drawn.

Mr Gregory:

– Did not Parliament say that these articles should be free?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– No, what Parliament has done up to the the present has been to make all these .articles subject to duty, but to leave with the Minister for Trade and Customs a discretionary power to include any of them in the free list. I admit that that is wide power to give the Minister, but it has been given designedly by Parliament. In regard to malted milk, the position was that we found that this food was being used very extensively as a drink, and not merely as an invalids’ or infants’ food. Further, we found also that the Bacchus Marsh Company were turning out a malted milk which, on analysis, was found to be identical with Horlick’s malted milk. In the circumstances it appeared to the Minister then in control of the Trade and Customs Department that it was right that the power which Parliament designedly gave him should be exercised. As a result of the action taken by the Department in this regard we have Mellin’s and other manufacturers of these foods coming here. I cannot say anything as to their prices, but they are using the raw material of our own country, employing our own people, and turning out what I believe is an excellent .article. As to Horlick’3 malted milk being an infant’s food, the latest information I have is that the Victorian Health Department is taking action against the proprietors for so describing it.

Mr Gregory:

– If the Minister found that any of these foods could not be described as an infant’s or invalid’s food, would he not remove it from the list?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have explained the position in which we found ourselves. We have carried out the law as it has been given us to administer. It is for the Committee to say whether or not we shall have the power in question, hut that is the way the Tariff is designed. In regard to many things that are not made here, we take no action except that we use the power that has been given us to prescribe certain conditions.

Mr Gregory:

– I contend that this power was not given to the Minister to be used for protective purposes.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The position in regard to all these tilings is that they fall under one or other of the items of the Tariff as dutiable articles unless we by Ministerial act take them out. Parliament gave us this power for the express purpose of enabling us as far as possible to protect our own people. We have simply exercised the power which Parliament has given us. I admit that the question is surrounded with many difficulties. It presents difficulties of administration, but the power was designedly given us by Parliament, and we hav« exercised it in what I believe to be the interests of this country.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

.- I support the principle of allowing infant’s and invalid foods to come in free of duty, and join with others who have advocated the free admission of Horlick’s malted milk. I do not know whether the State Government of Victoria or the Government of New1 South Wales has taken action against the proprietors of Horlick’s malted milk for describing it as an invalid’s food, but I do know that it is used very extensively as such. Those who have reared a family know very well that there are some infant’s foods which do not agree with children as well as do others. My eldest girl, for instance, when an infant, refused to take Lactogen, but she thrived on Horlick’s malted milk, which was the only artificial food that she would take. We all know that Hor- lick’s malted milk is used extensively and recommended by doctors an an .invalid’s food, and it is within my own experience that infants have been successfully reared on it. For these reasons, I agree with those’ who urge that Horlick’s malted milk should be admitted free of duty. There is no danger that it will undersell the local product or swamp the market, because at the present time its price is higher than any Australian-made infant’s or invalid’s food. That being so, the locally-made article must have the market preference. It seems to me that in this matter the Government are simply proposing to take a little more revenue out of the pockets of invalids and the parents of infants. A duty is being levied in this case solely for revenue purposes. I therefore hope that the Minister will agree that Horlick’s malted milk shall come in free.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield

– I am in sympathy with the view advanced by’ the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) and the honorable member for Nepean (Mr. Bowden). The Minister (Mr. Greene) knows very well that Horlick’s malted milk is almost twice as expensive as any locally manufactured invalid’s or infant’s food which, he is so anxious to protect, and that it is one of the most valuable foods, not only for infants, but for invalids. If the Government are going to drive Protection to these outrageous lengths they will meet with a good deal of opposition which they would not otherwise encounter. I shall certainly divide the Committee on this question.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- The only thing that is more pathetic than the imposition of this duty is, perhaps, the puerile and feeble reason advanced by the Minister for imposing it. I gather from what has been said that Horlick’s malted milk, which is a recognised infant’s food, has so far won popularity in this country that persons who can no longer lay claim to the happy state of infancy have been persuaded to use it in large quantities. It appears that one other duty has been added to the numerous and exacting duties of the Minister in that he is, constituted a public analyst to declare from time to time what may or may not be properly described as an infant’s food. The truth is that this is a tax on the babies of Australia., and, at the same time, a tax upon public health. The absurdity of the position is well illustrated by the Minister’s public declaration that he understands that legal proceedings are actually pending in this State against the proprietors of Horlick’s malted milk for describing it as an infant’s food. The Minister, having in his august person, the right to declare that it is not an infant’s food, certain other people institute proceedings against the people who manufacture it for saying that it is an infant’s food. I do not say that this is the most absurd of the absurd positions in which the Minister is placed, but it certainly should be added to his album of eccentricities.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The only trouble is that my actions have nothing whatever to do with it.

Mr BRENNAN:

– It is quite immaterial who for the time being exercised the power or enjoyed the honour. It is evident to all. who have heard the Minister that he would delight in exercising the power, and that the honour would sit very gracefully upon him. The Minister’s statement that an industry has been established in this State in respect of which it was found that this new milk product possessed all the attributes that could be claimed for Horlick’s milk was very interesting and important, but it lacked weight when the Minister had to tell the Committee that he was not in a position to give honorable members any information as to the price. I suggested, of course, facetiously, by interjection, that, after all, the price did not matter, the cost of living was nothing, and the needs of the babies were apparently nothing. We must take Horlick’s milk immediately out of. the list of babies’ foods, if some one claims, rightly or not, that we can establish a great Australian industry, even at the expense of the babies, and by way of keeping up the cost of living. In this case, the price of Horlick’s is higher than that of the local article, so we compete on exceptionally favorable terms.

Mr HAY:
New England

.- I am not so much concerned as to whether malted milk is an infants’ food or a food for others. What I am concerned about is the fact that the Minister is seeking to protect what is clearly an Australian industry. We have all the raw material in this country - we have the milk, the barley, the wheat, and the labour ; we make the bottles ; we produce the labels; and we employ our own people in building up an Australian industry. During the war, the supply of all infants’ foods which we imported was cut off. We cannot see what the future has in store for us, but surely a country like this cannot permit itself to be cut off from its essential requirements. There . is now in this State a company making malted milk.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– There are two.

Mr HAY:

– I was not aware of that; but the milk which the company I refer to is making has been shown by analysis to be equal to Horlick’s imported milk.

Mr Watkins:

– Who is the authority?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Federal Analyst.

Mr HAY:

– I have seen the analysis, which shows that the local product is quite equal to the imported article. The imported article is selling at a very much higher rate, because its manufacturers are a very rich and influential company, who have advertised largely throughout Australia, with the result that people who want malted milk naturally ask for Horlick’s. Every one has seen those black and white cows painted up all over the fields-throughout Australia. We are importing milk from other countries in the shape of manufactured articles which we could easily produce ourselves. I have no doubt that before the Minister took the step he has taken he consulted the Government Analyst regarding the product in question. The local company have already had plans prepared for a very largely increased output. If we can establish our own industries, using our own raw material, I hope honorable members will see the great advantage of doing so, as against importing manufactured milk products from other countries.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.. - I hope the Minister will adhere to his determination. If ever there was an item on which the Committee should be united, from the point of view both of primary production and of’ manufacture, it is this. The honorable . member for Nepean (Mr. Bowden) spoke of the virtues of Horlick’s milk. From my own family experience, I swear by Mellin’s Food. The Minister informs me that Mellin’s Food is practically on the same list as Horlick’s now, so much so that, instead of being imported, it is actually being manufactured in Australia. We have an opportunity here of standing by our own people, who are not on this occasion fleecing the public. The analysis shows that the local article is exactly, or almost exactly, the same as Horlick’s malted milk, and that it is selling much below the price of the imported article. The “poor, unfortunate babies and widows” that we heard about from the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) are being fleeced, not by the local manufacturer, but by the producer of the imported article. They are paying very much more for Horlick’s milk than for the local product. Then we are told that the fact that the local manufacturers are selling at a lower price is a reason why no protection should be accorded to them. I am surprised at those who advocate that kind of thing. Let us stand by the Australian article, which, made out of Australian material, the best in the world, is the best for Australian babies, and we can raise the best Australians on it. We have now a splendid opportunity to help the primary producer. I am surprised to find the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory), the Deputy Leader of the Country party, refusing to listen to the practical men who sit alongside him. Let him take the advice of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Hay). I hope the primary producers will take note of those people who are trying to oppose the advancement of their interests in connexion with the Tariff. I trust the Committee will be solid on this point, and will give the Minister the discretionary power that is required. If the time arrives when the Minister finds that a fair deal is not being given to the people by the local manufacturers, and that an article is being placed on the market which is not as good as it should be, he will have in his own hands the discretionary power to place the local manufacturers at a disadvantage. He will not be constituting himself an analyst who will issue an edict that this, or that, shall be done, as the honorable member for Batman suggests. The officer who has made the analysis in this case is one of the finest analysts in Australia - in fact, I question whether he has any peer in the world as an analyst - and I am prepared to take his word in regard to it. If he says that the component parts of the article which is being made by the Bacchus Marsh Company are practically the same as those of Horlick’s milk, I am prepared to accept his assurance. He is a responsible officer, and has to discharge his duties faithfully, both from a professional and departmental stand-point. He is not influenced by politics. He is there, with his reputation at stake, to say whether the articles submitted to him are suitable or not. I intend to stand by the Australian article for all I am worth.

Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920

.- I am prepared, as I said previously, to give the fullest assistance to our local industries where proof can be given that it is warranted. This industry is already established in Australia, and, although it has not had any great aid, it has expanded very rapidly. Comparative analysis of Bacchus Marsh and Horlick’s malted milk give the following figures -

Thus we see that we have in Australia an industry which produces an article equal in every way to that supplied by the Horlick’s Proprietary. This local industry is not only of advantage to the dairymen, but to primary producers generally. If our banana friends are entitled to the duty that has been fixed on that fruit, and if other sections of the House are entitled to the duties they desire in other directions, then this food industry is surely entitled to substantial Protection. If I felt that it was necessary in all cases to admit infants’ foods free, I should certainly vote for any proposal with that object, but seeing that the local product is equal in every way to the imported, we ought to encourage local manufacturers.

Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle

.- Whenever this subject has come up in the House, considerable debate has taken place on what constitutes infants’ and invalids’ foods. No one will deny, I think, that I have always given genuine support to Australian industries; but in the case of infants’ and invalids’ foods, no matter what the analysis may be, we cannot find ‘ two stomachs for which the analyzed food isequally suitable.

Mr Gregory:

– The authority must be the departmental analyst.

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

– I do not deny that; but that official does not analyze stomachs. I have known infants reared successfully on foods that were an absolute surprise to medical authorities. Indeed, I had a case in one of my own children, who is now, perhaps the healthiest of the family. There was a deficiency of mother’s milk, and our medical adviser . tried various foods, including milk from our own cow. Nothing seemed to be suitable, and, finally, the doctor suggested that the child’s bottle should be made up of unsweetened condensed milk. On this the child thrived, and, as - I say, is a healthy girl to-day. What analysis could cover a case like that? As to invalids’ foods, when I was near death a while ago, I had the greatest difficulty in getting any food to suit me ; and it was not any elaborate medical arrangement that brought me round, but a simple plan of feeding devised by the matron of the hospital. In endeavouring to develop our industries by Protection, we must be very careful, at any rate so far as infant life and the care of invalids are concerned, to provide the widest possible choice of foods. That is the principle that is guiding me in my attitude to-day.

The honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton) used an argument from a Protectionist stand-point that is altogether new to me. I was always under the impression that our industries required Protection because of dumping, or because they could not compete with commodities sent from overseas. In the present case, however, there is not only Horlick’s milk, but other children’s imparted foods, being sold at a higher rate than that at which the local article can be supplied. The difference in price, plus the duties, are shown in the following figures: - A comparison of wholesale prices in Melbourne, of Horlick’s malted milk, imported, with local foods, on 1st January this year, shows that the present average commercial protection to Glaxo is 97.76 per cent., to Lactogen 89.96 per cent., and to Bacchus Marsh 95:81 per cent. This, it will be admitted, is fairly high Protection. I have here the price list of Messrs. Rooke,

Tompsitt and Company, from which, it appears that Horlick’s, No. 3 size, dutiable at 20 per cent., is sold at 216s. per dozen of 4¾ lbs. each; Mellin’s, free, is sold, No. 2 size, at 25s. per dozen of 9½ ozs. each; Benger’s, free, is sold, No. 2 size, at 47s. per dozen of 16 oz. each; Carnrick’s, free, is sold, No. 3 size, at 46s. 6d. per dozen of 16oz. each; Glaxo, Australian, is sold at 15s. per dozen of 7 oz. each, and 62s. per dozen of 2¾ lbs. each; Nestle’s milk food, dutiable at 20 per cent., is sold at 25s. per dozen of 12 oz. each; and Lactogen, Australian, is sold, No. 3 size, at 62s. per dozen of 3 lbs. each. Nestle’s milk food is an imported article, which has been brought under the duties, though I remember the time when it was regarded as the one invalid food for this country. Why should this food be penalized with a heavy duty at this stage ?

Mr Corser:

– Nestle’s milk food is manufactured here now.

Mr WATKINS:

– That, 110 doubt, is the reason for the difference in the duty. This is really not a Protective duty, but a revenue tax on invalids and children. Never, as a Protectionist, have I favoured revenue duties through the Customs, because they do not fall on the rich, but on the parents of the largest families in Australia. I stand for Protection with the object of creating industries, and I cannot support a duty which is merely imposed for revenue purposes, and has not the industrial object in view. Even if Horlick’s milk is more largely used as a beverage, that does not make it the less an infant’s food. My information is that not more than 8 per cent, of it is sold for consumption as a beverage. But I am not very much concerned about this aspect of the case at all. My desire is to give the invalid and the child the best foods obtainable, no matter whence they come. In the case of medicines, duties are prescribed according to departmental by-laws, and only the other day I brought under the notice of the Minister the case of a man, a sufferer from asthma, who had read of an American cure and had obtained the preparation only to be held -up at the Customs because of the duty,

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I think, we remitted the duty in that case.

Mr WATKINS:

– That man had to write to me, and I approached the Min ister, who told me that no duty would be charged, but thatit would take some days to fix the matter up. I have been waiting ever since for a reply. I think that it is asking too much to expect honorable members to agree to a charge of 80 per cent, upon certain infants’ foods. It is about time we endeavoured to establish such industries in some other way. I am prepared to go almost to any length to protect an industry that will employ thousands of people, and I am ready to give assistance to these particular industries, but I protest against this discrimination by means of regulations, because, in my judgment, it is impossible to rear children by any Act of Parliament or regulations made under any Act.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

– I move -

That after the word " by-laws " the following words be inserted : - " including malted milk."
Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– This question will come up for determination on item 75. If the duty under that heading is not agreed to, the items will automatically come under the item now under discussion.

Mr BOWDEN:

– The Minister has already told us that all these commodities are dutiable unless they are prescribed by departmental by-laws as being free, and although the proposed duty in item 75 may be struck out, this article will still have to be prescribed by the departmental by-laws. It occurs to me that this is . an opportune time to come to a decision.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- I trust the Minister (Mr. Greene) will adhere to his suggestion. At present he has discretionary power. Let us look at this matter quite fairly. During the whole of’ my thirty years’ experience, when I was in active practice, I never prescribed patent food for. any child. If a mother was unable to nurse her child, and unable also to obtain the best substitute - another mother - to give the child the breast, I recommended her to get a goat and suckle the child in that way directly. Failing that, I advised the use of pure cow’s milk. I feel disposed to urge that the formula be printed upon the label of every imported patent food and every bottle of medicine, as well as every packet of patent food manufactured and sold in the Commonwealth for child consumption.

Mr Gregory:

– The manufacturers would not sell to the public then.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– That argument has been used on many occasions. Any analyst of standing can determine the component parts of the average dried-milk product. I have the highest opinion of the departmental analytical chemist. He is a man of great experience and high attainments. I would vote for this item simply because any advance in protective duty will have my support. No honorable member will say that the milk produced in Australia is not as good - indeed, it is better - than milk produced, in the United Kingdom. And no one will say that the Australian workers engaged in such industries are not as intelligent as those in England. A gentleman with experience of workers in Germany, France, Great Britain, and Australia, states definitely that he has never employed more intelligent workers than he has in his factory here. I cannot imagine, any one representing a farming constituency voting against the Minister’s suggestion. No one who claims to be a Protectionist can be a moderate Protectionist. Would we approve of a moderate drunkard., or of a woman who is moderately virtuous? The honorable member whose purpose is to secure revenue from the imposition of Customs duties should proclaim himself, not as a Protectionist, but as a revenue Tariffist. There is no halting-place. A Protectionist must be an absolute Protectionist. My vote shall be given to permit the Minister to have the discretionary power set out in the schedule. No doubt, he will always be guided by the advice of his departmental officers. If they can give him the assurance that the formula of what is described as an infant’s food is consistent with the ingredients of such a commodity, it should remove from the minds of all any suspicion that the article is otherwise.

Mr JACKSON:
Bass

. -I doubt whether the manufacturers of Horlick’s milk can procure . a sufficient supply of milk in Great Britain for the huge quantity of malted milk they are selling throughout the world, and I am inclined to believe that they import largely from

European countries. But if these people are anxious to’ be placed on the same footing as the manufacturers of Lactogen or Nestle’s Food,, let them come and establish their factory here, as others have done. The duty is only 6d. per lb., which works out at about 12 per cent., and is therefore not a very serious impost.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I do not care for the honorable member’s proposal to confine his amendment to Horlick’s malted milk.

Mr Jackson:

– The amendment specifies malted milk.

Mr GREGORY:

– -In New Zealand, the preparations permitted to be imported free as infants’ foods are set out in the Tariff schedule. There is an. enormous number of foods imported into Australia. Our Trade and Customs Department has published a list of 180 approved infants’ and invalids’ foods. This afternoon special attention has been drawn to what we are able to produce ourselves in this direction, and honorable members would be more consistent if they moved to strike out the item which permits the free importation of these foods at the discretion of the Minister. At any rate, if their wishes are to be carried into effect; and protection is to be afforded to local manufacturers of invalids’ and infants’ foods, it is only a fraud to retain the item. When I rose to speak a little while ago, my purpose was misconstrued. I object to power being given to the Minister which will enable him to take one article of invalids’ or infants’ food out of the free list and replace it by another simply for the purpose of affording protection to the local maker of any particular line of foods. I would be perfectly satisfied if the Minister were to do this on the ground that the article was not an invalid’s or infant’s food; but certain papers I have in my possession indicate that he has taken action in the past, not upon that ground, but because the free importation of an article was interfering with a local industry. Is the Minister to be given the power to destroy one. industry for the sake of giving; protection to another? The present Minister has accepted the full responsibility of having done so in regard to sheep-dip. When ho imposed an embargo on the importation of sheep-dip, it was one of the most disgraceful things that ever happened in Australia. If/ in future, the Minister, without the consent of Parliament, can say that firms which have been established in this country for sixty or seventy years, and have built up agencies throughout the Commonwealth, as Coopers have done, are no longer to be allowed to trade here, a system will grow up which will be worse than anything that occurred under the Tammany system of America. Of course, I am making no attack upon the integrity of the present Minister (Mr. Greene). That is beyond doubt.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

– I ask the honorable member not .to deal .with the matter of sheep-dip.

Mr GREGORY:

– I am merely pointing out that I do not doubt the present Minister’s integrity in regard to the exercise of the discretion given to him by this item. In any case, he has told us that, prior to his taking office as Minister, a promise had been given in regard to sheep-dip, and I realize that, although he gave the actual instructions in that regard, he was not entirely responsible for what was done. We know the injury it occasioned. I hope that the honorable member will withdraw his amendment, and allow me to move to insert the words “approved by the Analytical Department - or the Health Department, if the Minister wishes - as infants’ or invalids’ foods.”

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have no objection to an amendment of that character.

Mr GREGORY:

– It would overcome my objection to the item. It would require any invalids’ or infants’ food to be approved by the Government Analyst before being admitted free. I do not know Horlick’s malted milk. I believe that it has been stated that it is not accepted as an infant’s food in New South Wales, and I understand that there have been complaints in Victoria. The initiative should be taken by the Trade and Customs Department. If the Analytical Department will not classify Horlick’s malted milk as an infant’s food, it should not be allowed to come in free of duty. I am not fighting for any particular line of food. I am fighting for a principle.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

.- The argument” used by the honorable member for Nepean (Mr. ^Bowden) and others is that. Protection should be afforded to the local makers of infants’ foods; but the principle in the item is opposed to their object. The principle has been definitely laid down in the schedule that “ infants’ and invalids’ foods as prescribed by departmental by-laws” shall be admitted free. I claim, although I have had no communication from those who are directly interested in its manufacture, that Horlick’s malted milk is used extensively as an infants’ and invalids’ food. I know that from experience in my own home and from what I have learned from my friends and associates in New South Wales. As a matter of fact, my own child refused to take any form of artificial food other than Horlick’s malted milk. The principle having been laid down that infants’ and invalids’ foods shall be admitted free, I hope that it is going to be preserved.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) has requested me to withdraw my amendment in favour of the proposal which he has outlined. Personally, I think that both of the amendments might be carried, inasmuch as one is not antagonistic to the other. However, in deference to his request,. I ask leave to temporarily withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by -leave, withdrawn.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I think that I ought to be perfectly frank with the Committee. I have said that I am willing to accept the amendment of the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory), but I wish to point out that its adoption will not make the slightest difference to the position. If that amendment be carried, the words “ as prescribed by departmental by-laws “ will still be retained, so that the Minister will continue to wield exactly the powers with which he is clothed to-day. In regard to the 180 foods to which the honorable member has referred, I would remind him that only twenty-eight are now admitted free. All the others have been removed from the free list. Horlick’s malted milk and Glaxo are the only artificial foods in regard to which we have had any complaints. The manufacturers of Horlick’s malted milk are a very wealthy company.

Mr Richard Foster:

– They turn out a mighty good article.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. But out of the 180 artificial foods for infants and invalids to which reference was made by the honorable member for Dampier, only twenty-eight are to-day admitted free.

Mr Bowden:

– One minute the Minister says that certain articles are infants’ and invalids’ foods, whilst the next minute he affirms that they are not.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Nothing of the kind. Parliament deliberately placed this power in the hands of the Minister. It has made all artificial foods dutiable commodities, and has vested the Minister with power to exempt some of them from the payment of duty. This power has been exercised in certain instances. Similar power is vested in the Minister under every Tariff in the world.

Mr Gregory:

– No.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I do not mean my remark to apply particularly to Horlick’s malted milk. But either the Customs Act itself or the Tariff confers a discretionary power upon Ministers in every country in the world. Parliament has vested the Minister with discretionary power in regard to this particular item, and it is for the Committee to say whether the existing state of things shall continue. I hope that it will.

Mr Prowse:

– Such a power may be abused.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Of course, it, may be. But this particular item has appeared in its present form in our Tariff for a very considerable time.

Mr Gregory:

– The complaint now is that Horlick’s malted milk has been taken out of the free list, and is subject to a duty.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Had Parliament desired that infants’ and invalids’ foods should be admitted free for all time, it would have definitely said so. But it has not done that. Upon the contrary, it has said that only infants’ and invalids’ foods “ as prescribed by departmental by-laws “ shall be admitted free.

Mr Prowse:

– It is not common sense that an infants’ food should be taken out of the free list.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I cannot help what is common sense. These foods are dutiable, and the Horlick’s Malted Milk Company did their utmost to go to law with us upon this question. They found, however, that they had no case, and consequently did not take action.

Mr Bowden:

– Because the Government strained the law.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– No. The principle which is involved here is one which runs right through the Tariff. It is a principle which this Parliament has adopted ever since the inception of Federation.

Mr Prowse:

– Does the honorable gentleman think that the duty represents the spirit of the agreement?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It represents both the letter and the spirit of it. It gives effect to the intention of this Parliament. The real issue under consideration is, “ Should the words ‘ as prescribed by departmental by-laws ‘ be retained ? “ I say that they should be, and I ask the Committee to agree to the item in the form in which it now stands. The amendment of the honorable member for Dampier, if carried, will merely add another duty to those which already devolve upon departmental officers. It will necessitate the issue . of a certificate that any particular article is an infants’ and invalids’, food, but it will really not affect the existing position so long as the words “ as prescribed by departmental by-laws “ are retained.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– This is merely a repetition of the fight we had upon Glaxo when the last Tariff was under consideration. Upon tha’t occasion we had half-a-dozen persons assuring us that we would ruin the children ifwe did not admit Glaxo from New Zealand free of duty. We were solemnly told that the children must have Glaxo or they would die. Now we are informed that they must have Horlick’s malted milk or they will die. What arrant humbug it is ! When we began the consideration of this schedule by imposing a duty upon alcoholic liquors we robbed the children of every man in this country, who drinks. Yet not a word was said then about the poor children. Now, however, we hear a howl about the injustice which will be done them if a duty be imposed ‘upon Horlick’s malted milk. We are assured that they will die in thousands.

I can quite understand: Free Traders using such an argument, but I cannot understand it being used by Protectionists. As to the reformed drunkards who are said to want Horlick’s malted mills, all I have to say is that, independent of their requirements, I have tried it myself, and found that it is not bad. But if any one cannot get Horlick’s malted milk, I advise him to take a spoonful of “Worcestershire sauce in the morning, and he will find that it will do him good. If enough persistence is shown, Horlicks will manufacture here, the same as in the case of the Glaxo Company. I assure honorable members that if we tax Horlicks, they will soon have an establishment in Australia. It is the same old cry. We were told that chocolates could not be manufactured in Australia ; that they would not have the same taste or appearance or general appeal to the palate as the Englishmade cholocate. But we know the position in regard to the manufacture of chocolates in Australia to-day. There was the same argument concerning imported soaps; but to-day we have Sunlight soap and other products of Lever Brothers turned out in Australia. Similar remarks could be applied to numbers of other commodities. All I would say, in conclusion, is that the Free Traders should stick to their old arguments, and that the (Protectionists should cut out cant and humbug.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I regretted to hear the interpretation which the Minister has placed upon the powers given to him by the similar section in the old Act to the one we are now considering. In plain English, that section means that the Department is to determine whether certain articles are infants’ and invalids’ foods, and to do that only. The Minister states that the section gives him power to make certain articles dutiable or not dutiable at his discretion. I maintain that if he were to follow that’ course he would be guilty of a misuse of the powers given him under the section. If it is a fact that, of 184 articles which were regarded as infants’ and invalids’ foods, nearly the whole of them have been taken off the list, and now have to pay duty, such action amounts undoubtedly to a misuse of the Minister’s powers. The section reads plainly enough, and the only discretionary power that should lie with the Minister is in respect of the determination whether or not a certain article comes under the head of infants’ and invalids’ food. And, if it does, it should be admitted free. The use of this power by the Minister in order to make some of these foods dutiable because certain manufacturers may have made representations to him is establishing a very dangerous precedent.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

– I have in my hand a copy of the first Tariff introduced in the history of the Commonwealth. I would like the Minister to show me a single indication that he has been given the power which he is claiming under the new Tariff. I have gone through the greater portion of the 1907 schedule as submitted to Parliament, and can find- no indication of any such power. I want to impress the Committee with the serious fact that a practice has developed which amounts to autocratic control by the Department in respect of almost every item. Either by way of regulation or by the Minister’s decision, a system has. been evolved whereby an exceedingly heavy embargo is being placed upon trade. It should be for this Parliament, and Parliament alone, to fix duties; and the Tariff schedule should be as simple as it can possibly be made. Every person interested in the importation of anything into the Commonwealth should know exactly what he must pay by way of duty. There should be no logrowing through the medium of a member of Parliament, or by way of departmental officials. During the past few days I have been reading through the particulars of the Tariffs of four or five different countries. They are all very simple, and traders generally are under no difficulty in ascertaining their exact position with respect to any and every item. To-day, the Australian importer has to battle with an enormous accumulation of difficulties emanating from constant streams of departmental instructions. In order to place the sole responsibility for fixing a duty upon the proper shoulders, namely, those of the Parliament, I move -

That the words “ as prescribed by departmental by-laws” be left out.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.- The Minister has brought forward a proposal which has actually been in existence since the passing of the 1908 Tariff.

Mr Gregory:

– That is not so.

Mr WEST:

– The honorable member may see for himself. I know that the Minister is in a difficult position. He is differently situated from any of his colleagues. He has to compete with unscrupulous persons who are out to fleece the public by any and every means, including, the wrong description of their articles upon labels. At the time of discussing the 1908 Tariff, it was deemed advisable that the Minister for Customs should be given power to deal with unscrupulous people, and I consider that it was wise to give him such power. We have to place confidence in the Minister for Customs and his departmental officials. I’ defy any Parliament to frame a Tariff so simply that it will not require the tact and wisdom of the Customs officials to insure smooth working. During my Federal parliamentary career, I have had much to do with Customs officials, and have always found them very capable and trustworthy. When I was a child, there were none of these patent infant foods, and the mother who could not give her offspring milk had to obtain it from the nearest dairy. It is only of late years that these patent nostrums have been considered necessary, and if half of them were done away with the children would be better off. At the present time, infants’ foods are admitted free of duty, but a commodity that can be used for other purposes than the feeding of infants, although described as an infants’ food, is dutiable. Most of the patent foods, we are told, have milk as their basis. I am one of those who, when passing a cow, are inclined to lift their hats, because of the value of that animal to the human race. Our dairy products are the equal of any in the world, and why should we not make here the infant foods required by the community ? Malted milk is now for sale in every refreshment room in Sydney, many persons being forced to drink it because they cannot get a glass of beer after 6 o’clock at night. Personally,” I do not like it, and would prefer to drink beer, which cannot be said to have done me much harm, for I have been a beer drinker throughout my long life.

Mr. GREENE (Richmond- Minister the reasons given by the honorable member for Dampier for his amendment is that the use of the words which he proposes to strike out is of comparatively recent date. He defied me to show a single instance of their use in the first Tariff of 1901. My reply is that on the last page of that Tariff he will find no fewer than four such instances, and others are scattered throughout it. Among the special exemptions at the end of Division XVI. are these - . ,

  1. Minor articles to be specified in departmental by-laws for use in the manufacture of goods within the Commonwealth. (aa) Scientific instruments and apparatus for use in universities, colleges, schools, or public hospitals under departmental by-laws. (ac) Theatrical costumes and properties, subject to departmental by-laws. (ae) Works of art, being statuary and paintings framed or unframed, also ‘windows for churches or public institutions, under departmental by-laws.

The honorable member should makecertain of his facts before being so definite in his statements. Without a provision such as that to which he objects, a Tariff becomes an absolutely rigid instrument. There may be no doubt as to the duties imposed by Parliament, though difficulty of interpretation nevertheless arises from time to time, but all sorts of hardship occurs if there is not provision for give and take, and this was recognised from the very beginning, the Minister being given a discretionary power in regard to many items. The exercise of this power throws on him a grave responsibility, and requires due caution; but I have not heard of any case of abuse.

Mr Gregory:

– That is a matter of opinion.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– There has never been a suggestion of wrong-doing or corruption.

Mr Gregory:

– That is so.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Of course, opinions will always vary as to the wisdom of any action of a Minister, and one man may declare the exercise of this discretionary power to be an abuse, while another may regard it as legitimate and proper. The commodities mentioned in this item are, under one head or another, dutiable; it is only by being named in a departmental by-law that they can secure admittance free. That has always been the position. I hope that the Committee will not make the amendment.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- The Minister, hy the exercise of his discretionary power, saved an important industry in my electorate. During the war, two enterprising men from New Zealand established works at Botany for the manufacture of gelatine, using a byproduct which was previously a nuisance to the community. The Japanese were making gelatine from seaweed, and it was being admitted free. Had not the Minister exercised ‘his discretionary power, the Japanese gelatine would have swamped the market, and those who had put their capital into the works at Botany - one of the largest gelatine works in the Empire - would have lost it. By his action the Minister preserved their occupation for 500 or 600 persons, who were employed under the best conditions.

Mr Gregory:

– “We say that Parliament alone should exercise this power.

Mr RILEY:

– Parliament was not sitting, and the local firm would have been ruined if Protection had not been given to it before Parliament could be summoned. An ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. The action taken by the Minister did no injury to the community, and put an important industry on a. sound footing. It would be a mistake to take from the Minister discretionary power. Any misuse of that power must be accounted for to Parliament.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- The honorable member for South Sydney (Mr. Riley) has given an instance which affords the strongest reason for taking this discretionary power from the Minister for Trade and Customs. During the war, Parliament was sitting almost ‘constantly, and, had the Minister wished action to-be taken for the preservation of any industry, he had only to propose an amendment of the Tariff schedule. That would have taken effect immediately, and would have remained operative until Parliament had otherwise determined. What members now have to consider is whether Parliament shall be supreme in regard to the Tariff, or whether the Minister is to be allowed to alter the Tariff in compliance with the requests of individuals. In the interests of the Minister himself I hope the amendment may be carried.

Question - That the words proposed, to be omitted stand part of the item - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 32

NOES: 6

Majority 26

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I move -

That after the words “ departmental bylaws “ the words “ including malted milk “ be inserted.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– I rise to order. As malted milk is specifically mentioned in item 75, 1 would like a ruling, Mr. Chairman, as to whether the amendment of the honorable member for Nepean (Mr. Bowden) is in order.

Mr Bowden:

– On the point of order. If my amendment is. carried, malted milk will be declared to be an infant’s and invalid’s food.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– The honorable member has no right to do that.

Mr Bowden:

– The Committee can do so. If malted milk were struck out from item 75, there would still be a doubt ; but if my amendment is carried it will be definitely placed on the free list.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson:

– I rule that the amendment of the honorable member for Nepean (Mr. Bowden) is in order.

Mr. GREENE (Richmond - Minister there has been a long discussion on this matter, I trust that the Committee will be prepared to take a vote on the amendment, which I ask the Committee to reject. Malted milk is the product of one of the great industries supporting primary production in this country, and we are entitled to give, not only our primary, but our secondary, industries that protection to which they are entitled.

Question - That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 6

NOES: 35

Majority . . . . 29

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Item agreed to.

Item 56 (Ginger, green) agreed to.

Item 57 -

Mr. CORSER, (Wide Bay [4.41]. - I move -

That the item be amended by adding to subitem c the following: - “And on and after 20th May, 1921, per cental, British, 3s.; intermediate and general, 3s. 6d.”

The increase I propose is equivalent to 9d. per bushel, and the reason for my amendment will be apparent to most honorable members. Maize-growing, in many parts of Australia, is of as much importance to people on the land as the wheat industry is in other districts. We have by the imposition of protective duties for some years past been trying to build up industries for the manufacture of maize into several products utilized in the Commonwealth.. The farmers engaged in the cultivation of maize desire that the industry should be stabilized, by the prevention of dumping from foreign countries which might lead to their crops being held over until they would be destroyed by weevil. America, South Africa, and India are large producers of maize; and if maize from those countries were dumped into Australia at a time when the local yield was high, the imported article might be used in the secondary industries and the local crop left to stand over, and so be destroyed by weevil, because, as honorable members are aware, maize will not keep for any length of time. Arrangements were made with South Africa by which South African maize may be permitted into Australia under more favorable conditions than maize grown in other parts of the world. I understand from the Minister of Trade and Customs, who has gone into this matter, that after the Tariff now under consideration is passed that privilege will be withdrawn. Maizegrowing is already a big industry in. Australia, and will extend. It is an industry which immigrants or returnedsoldiers may take up, because the cultivation of maize does not involve the same amount of expenditure as the cultivation of many other products of the soil. Plenty of land suitable for the growth of maize is available, and all that is necessary to greatly encourage the industry is that it should be stabilized in such a way that there will be an assured local market tor it, and that it will not have to compete with maize dumped here from other parts of the world. I understand that those engaged in the secondary industries, of which maize is a raw material, have no objection to the increase of duty I propose, as they are .satisfied that they will be able to depend on production in Australia for all the maize they require.

Mr CORSER:

– That has been necessary in the past, because the maizegrowing, industry has not been stabilized. On that account, a number who were growing maize gave up growing it. I have had many years’ experience of the industry, and I may say [ have never known a time when things looked brighter for the maize-grower than they do at present. We have by protective duties encouraged the establishment of industries for products of maize such as that of the company established at Footscray, by imposing a duty of 3d. per lb. on rice to be manufactured into starch. The result of the imposition of that duty was to make it practically compulsory that starch used in Austral’a should be manufactured from maize instead of from rice, which is produced by black labour. In America 98 per cent, of the starch wed is .made from maize. Another product manufactured from maize is glucose, and we recently increased the Protection on that art: ck from £8 to £12 per ton. The protective duties already imposed on manufactures of maize have induced people to invest large sums in their manufacture. 1 understand that the factory at Footscray to which I have referred could not be built to-day for under about £90,000. There were factor es in Victoria and in the other States, such as Harper Bros, and others, engaged in manufacturing starch from rice; and I understand that they are now altering their plants to enable them to manufacture the article from maize. To make this industry safe for the grower and the manufacturer wo require an assurance that the grower will be able to secure a market for his crop which will not be suddenly interfered with by the dumping of maize grown in other parts of the world, and an assurance for the manufacturer that sufficient maize will be grown here to meet his requrements. To show that we run no risk in this respect, I may say that manufacturers are making contracts twelve months ahead with maize-growers to buy from them the maize they require. We have any amount of good land in Australia suitable for the product on of maize; but our cost of labour in the industry is higher than it is in the countries growing the maize that comes into competition with what is grown in Australia. I hope that honorable members will be prepared to assist the primary and secondary industries dealing w t,11 maize by agreeing to the increased duty I propose to prevent dumping.

Mr. FLEMING (Robertson) [4.50”.Apparently the only definite result of the discussion of the Tariff so far has been in the direction of an improvement of the English language. There is a great tendency nowadays to express everything as briefly as possible; and I have noticed during the discussion of the Tariff that whenever an honorable member desires to say, “ I wish to be in a position to increase the price of a certain article,” he condenses the statement into “ I want to stabilize the industry.” The honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) was very strong on the stabilizing of the maize industry, but he has proposed a very dangerous way of doing it.

Mr Corser:

– There is a great deal of competition in the industry.

Mr FLEMING:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– There is considerable competition. We sometimes import maize from the United States of America, and more frequently from South Africa; but we never have imported it in quantities worth considering except during drought time. At present our maizegrowers can carry on, with a good margin of profit.

Mr Corser:

– They cannot do so in Queensland.

Mr FLEMING:

– There is a cons Arable area under maize cultivation in Australia, and it is a paying crop, as the honorable member for Wide Bay has admitted.

Mr Corser:

– - Just at present.

Mr FLEMING:

– lt is a crop that costs very little to plant.

Mr Corser:

– ^1 did not say that.

Mr FLEMING:

– The honorable member said that returned soldiers could go in for maize cultivation because of the small expenditure necessary. It is one of the cheapest crops to grow, and is, perhaps, most frequently grown with pumpkins in the same field, lt is a crop, also, which give3 very good returns. There is a considerable area in Australia of suitable land, with a good rainfall, for the production of maize, and under existing conditions the maize-growers are doing well. Since we have had Protection for the secondary industries using maize as a raw material the growers of maize have had a good market for their product in Au’tralia. I am glad that that has been so, but I do net des re that the production of maize should be extended at the expense of what is undoubtedly tlie greatest industry in Australia, and that is stock-raising. There are times when stock, and particularly sheep, are dependent absolutely on the importation of maize and other grain. Any man who has had anything to do with stock in drought time’ is aware that the cheapest and most effective way of feeding stock is with grain. The old method of feeding stock with chaff has gone out, and, while lucerne hay is good feed, it is rather hard to place it in the right way.

Mr Corser:

– In ca~e of a very severe drought, the duty on maize might easily be suspended.

Mr FLEMING:

– It might easily be suspended after the stock were dead.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The duty could not be suspended unless Parliament were sitting.

Mr FLEMING:

– Stock-owners want to be able to import maize for their stock whenever it is necessary to do so. The honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) has appealed to the Country party, as representing the primary producers, to support the proposed increase, but primary producers who take a general view of the position of primary production in Australia must vote against it, since, while it might put a few pounds into the pockets of a few hundred people, it would take thousands of pounds out of the pockets of hundreds of others and go a long way towards damaging the greatest producing industry in Australia. In time of drought, hundreds of thousands of pounds are spent’ on the feeding of stock. 1 could take honorable members to one station in New South Wales, where during a drought over £70,000 was spent - to a large extent on maize - in. trying to keep the stock alive. During the Inst drought in New South Wales the majority of stock-owners, after trying various forms of feeding, came to the conclusion that Indian corn or maize was the best of all foods for their stock. If you feed with the smaller grain, trailing it along the ground, which is the most effective method, a great deal of it is lost; but Indian corn is so large that it is easy for the stock to pick it up, and they do well on it. I would urge the Minister not to be led away by this appeal on the part of the honorable member for Wide Bay for an increased duty, which, 1 repeat, would benefit a few hundred people, but do very grave injury to what is the greatest of all industries in Australia at the present time.

Mr PROWSE:
Swan

.- If the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) succeeded in carrying his proposal for an increased duty, he would find in the long run that the benefits which he predicts would be derived from it were purely illusory. In time of drought, when the duty would have a protective incidence, a demand would be made for its removal,- and there can be no doubt- that it would be suspended or removed. As the grower of another cereal for over twenty years, I. can say that the only time within my experience when the duty on corn would have been of any service, it was removed in the interests of the consuming public. The honorable member must recognise that the duty would be of sen-ice to the maizegrowing industry only in time of drought, and with a drought upon us the odds are ten to one that it would be removed. The primary producer it seems must always “ knuckle down “ to the interests of other people, whether it be in the matter of a duty on machinery or anything else. The primary producer is not to be helped in this “In v. ITe can ho helped, however, lider other items of this schedule, and also in connexion with the taxation of the Commonwealth. During recent years most farmers have had to pay, by way of taxation, just about three times as much as that paid by citizens who receive their income regularly by way of salary or fees. That is a scandal.

Mr Mathews:

– It would be if it were true, but the honorable member cannot prove that it is.

Mr PROWSE:

– I’ can prove by actual figures the accuracy of my statement. Hitherto, there has been no one to look after the interests of the people who have been struggling under such a burden, but I hope that they will soon receive attention. I am prepared to vote for the proposed increase if the honorable member for Wide Bay thinks it will assist the industry, but’ I am not sanguine that it will he of any avail.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

– I do not think the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) need press his amendment. The present duty on maize appears to be adequate. I find that, during the year 1912-13, we imported 634,903 bushels; in 1913-14, 152,949 bushels; in 1914-15, 816,290 bushels; and in 1915-16, a year of drought, when we had to make special arrangements for the hand-feeding of our stock in order to save them, 1,922,240 bushels. After the -drought had broken and .We returned to normal times, the importations of maize fell away enormously. In 1916-17 only 53,493 bushels were imported; and in 1917-38, 1,807 bushels. The value of our imports of this commodity in 1916-17 - the year after the drought - was only £8,162, while in 1317-18 our importations were valued at only £770.

Mr Corser:

– But we know that freights at that time were very much against importations. We have now established the industry, and as freights are tumbling down every day, maize will be dumped in Australia unless we adequately protect the industry.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Freights may have had something to do with the reduction in our imports, but taking these official figures as a guide, it seems to me that the existing duty will fully protect our maizegrowers. We do not want to impose unnecessary duties.

Mr Corser:

– I agree with the honorable member, but having consulted the growers and the manufacturers of maize products, I say that the increased duty which I propose is necessary.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Seeing that we imported only £770 worth of maize in 1917-18, there is no occasion for increasing the duty.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

.- Whilst sympathizing with the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser), I cannot vote for his amendment, knowing as I do that such a duty as he proposes would become effective only when we were practically starved out. It is not many years since I and other honorable members - particularly from Queensland - urged the Minister for Trade and Customs to remit the duty, and to allow maize to come in free, in order that our starving stock might be saved. That request was granted, with the result that ship-loads of maize from the Argentine were brought into New South Wales and Queensland, and helped us to save our stock.

Mr Jackson:

– The honorable member thinks that the duty as it stands is sufficient under normal conditions 1

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– I do.

Mr Corser:

– Maize-growers do not think it is sufficient, nor do the manufacturers of maize products. I have no interest in the manufacturers except that I desire that they shall be given fair play, so that they may use what wo produce.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– I have not heard of any demand for an increase on the part of maize-growers. The honorable member suggested that maize might be dumped here. What is the freight on maize to-day?

Mr Bell:

– About 2s.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– Surely, that in itself is a sufficient protection.

Mr Stewart:

– When we spoke of the freight on machinery affording sufficient protection to local manufacturers we were laughed at.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– But you do not want machinery to grow maize.

Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920

– We certainly do.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– I know the farmers down here want the most up-to-date machinery, but many of the best farmers in Queensland have had to do without the latest ma»chinery. Relying on pure Scotch navigation - pig-headedness and a long hoe - they have grown maize to perfection, . planting it by hand. If drought overtook the country, the Minister would at once be asked to remove or suspend the duty. That has been done before.

Mr Corser:

– There would be no objection to the suspension of the duty in time of drought.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– Then, what is the use of the honorable member’s proposal? If the maize-growing industry needed protection, I would be pleased to give it.

Mr Corser:

– I assure the honorable member that it does.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– The honorable member has given no sound reason in support of his proposal. I see plenty of maize being grown in Queensland, and there is a big market for it. Those who have to buy maize to feed stock say it is sold at a terrible price.

Mr Corser:

– Just before the drought a farmer showed me 150 acres of prime maize, which he said I could have if I would take the crop off and leave the ground fit for the next crop. I persuaded him not to do this, and afterwards got him 3s. per bushel for it. His return was 50 or 60 bushels to the acre.

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– That is only one case. My principal objection is that if an increased duty is put on it will be of no use, because, when the time comes when we want to import maize, the whole of us will go cap in hand to the Minister and ask him to remove the duty for the sake of the starving stock.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I hope the honorable member will not press the amendment. I considered . this matter - very carefully when framing the Tariff. This is the first time that maize, as an item, appears on the Tariff at all. I recognise, as the honorable member does, that the maize industry is very useful to small settlers in suitable areas. I thought the best means to protect the industry, although I did raise the duty slightly, was to give a generous measure of protection to those secondary industries which have been built up in this country, and which will take the surplus maize off the market at periods that come along from time to time when more maize is produced than the country can consume. My experience of maize-growing was that there were seasons when the grower could’ get a decent price, and other seasons when he could not get a good price at all, particularly for the softer corn grown in thecoastal areas. That corn will not keep indefinitely, or as well as that grown in areas further inland, and it was a question’ of either getting rid of it at what one” could get for it or letting the weevils take it. It is a fact that maize is very largely used in periods of stress in this country. The figures which have already been quoted show that there is no material import of maize except at those,periods. If the honorable member succeeded in imposing a relatively high duty - I do not say that he is asking for an; exorbitant one - on maize under normal conditions, the cry that would be raised for the removal of the duty at crucial periods would be a far stronger one, and would more probably be listened to, than if we retained the comparatively moderate duty now contained in this Tariff. It is 100 per cent, higher than it was on the South African product, and it is from that country -that the greater part of the imported maize comes. The duty on maize in the South African Tariff was1s. We have now made it 2s., and there we propose to leave it.

Mr Corser:

– That brings South Africa under the same conditions as other countries?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. If the honorable member succeeded in making the duty 3s. 6d., and a period of drought arrived, I am certain that the Government of the day would say to those who asked for the removal of the duty, “ We cannot refuse your request,” whereas with the present moderate duty it would be a fair thing to say, if maize grown by black labour was being brought in, that the people here should get the import parity, plus the duty. The honorable member would therefore be serving his people best by allowing this item to stand, and supporting, as he has done, those duties which, by benefiting the secondary industries, form the best protection for the primary industry itself.

Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay

– I am sorry the Minister does not see his way to accept the amendment, or that I have not had support from the Country party which I felt sure I would get. I know that those members have been asked -by the- people in their districts to support my proposal. The growers there are in a different position from those in Victoria, who have all the land cleared. Hundreds ofmen had to fell the scrub, and then, after burning it off, had to go out with a hoe, and put the corn in by hand. They also had to take the crop off without any machine;, in fact, all the work is done by hand. . My idea was to encourage men of that class to go on to the land, and make a start, by giving them some security that when the maize was harvested they would not have to take an inadequate price for it. If, however, those who ought to support the primary producers will not support my amendment, 1 have no alternative but to ask leave to withdraw it.

Amendment,, by leave, withdrawn.

Item agreed to.

Item 58 -

Grain and Pulse, prepared or manufactured, viz. : -

  1. Bran, pollard, and sharps, per cental, 1s. (British preferential);1s. (intermediate);1s. 3d. (general).
  2. Wheatenflour, per cental, free (British preferential) ; 2s. 6d. (intermediate) ; 2s.’ 6d. (general).
  3. Corn flour, per lb., 2d.
  4. Semolina, perlb., free (British pre ferential;½d. intermediate);¾d. (general).
  5. N.E.I., includingPhosphorized Wheat, perlb.½d. (British preferential and intermedin te) ;¾d. (general).
Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- I Understood the Minister to say,, on the previous item, that he would make provision in this item for patent’ groats and barley. I wish to direct his attention also to corn flour, on which we are putting a duty of 2d. all round. It is claimed by those concerned that a little heavier duty is required in order to prevent the American article from coming here in competition with our own. We grow here all the cereals necessary for the manufacture of corn flour, and yet America is sending in a good quantity at a fair value. It is suggested that the duty should be increased to 2½d. British preferential Tariff, 3d. intermediate Tariff, and ‘4d. general Tariff. It is suggested also that there is no reason why Semolina should be listed as free under the British preferential Tariff, and that we should omit the line “Semolina,” and substitute in its- place “ Cereal Breakfast Foods, in packets, 2½d. British preferential Tariff,’ 3d’. . intermediate Tariff, and 4d. . general Tariff.” Several lines- of cereal breakfast foods are imported, such as Quaker Oats, which are classified for duty under sub-item e, n.e.i, and carry a duty of only 1½d. per lb. Many large factories in Australia are manufacturing oatmeal, flaked oats, roll ed oats,, and various . other kindsof cereal breakfast foods. It is urged that the industry should be effectively protected from American competition by inserting the new sub-item I have indicated. In that way primary products will be prepared and used in Australia on the breakfast table, instead of foreign-grown and foreign-prepared cereals taking their place here to the value of something over £10,000 per annum in normal times. I make these suggestions to the Minister so that he may consider them before he speaks.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I propose to submit two amendments, which, to a great extent, will meet the desires of the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton). So far as corn flour is concerned, I have received no request from the manufacturers, and I understand that they are satisfied with the duty of 2d., which is, in my opinion, a fairly high one. I see that the average price of imported corn flour before the war was 3¾d. per lb., and this duty represents nearly 50 per cent.

Mr Prowse:

– Do you think that the duty on semolina is a fair one?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If the honorable member will look down the Tariff memorandum, he will see that this duty was carried up from the provisions which came into force on and after10th August., 1917, but that was not noticed at the time. This duty was a special war condition which no longer exists; and an amendment I propose to submit will have the effect of placing semolina where it always was as a dutiable article. That is not said in so many words,, but that will be the effect of the amendment.

Mr Mathews:

– At a higher amount?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– At a higher amount. Then to sub-item e, I propose to add the words “ when not packed for retail sale.” The phosphorized wheat may be- imported in bulk at this duty; the importers will not be able to retail it unless it is packed here.

Mr Gibson:

– Can it be imported in any. other form than packed? It is put up in hermetically sealed tins, for otherwise it is dangerous to handle.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– We may have to specially meet the case of phosphorized wheat.

Mr Gibson:

– It is always packed in kerosene tins.

Mr Fleming:

– Is there any imported?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I do not know that there is any imported, but I thought that the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. Gibson) wished something done in regard, to the item. The effect of the amendment I have indicated will be that., if phosphorized wheat is imported for retail sale,’ it will fall automatically under an ad valorem duty, which will return a higher rate than that set down in the item.

Mr Gibson:

– Quite right.

Mr Mathews:

– What is the rate - 30 per cent.?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– For the moment, I cannot tell the honorable member, but the duty will be higher, and, I think, effective. I move -

Thatsub-item d be. amended by inserting after the word “Semolina” the words, “up to and including 10th May, 1921.”

The effect of this amendment is that semolina will be free, so far as to-day is concerned., but to-morrow will disappear from the Tariff and become dutiable.

Mr Prowse:

– What is the duty?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It comes under n.e.i., but if packed for household use it will come under the item of “ oilmen’s stores.”

Amendment agreed to.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I move -

That sub-item e be amended by adding, . “ And on and after 20th May, 1921-

N.E.I., including Phosphorized Wheat, when not packed for retail sale, per lb., British and intermediate,½d.; general,¾d.”

I have already explained the effect of this amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 59-

Hay and chaff, per cwt.,1s.

Mr PROWSE:
Swan

.- Does the Minister seriously think that1s. per cwt is going to protect this industry?

The argument that applies to maize also applies to this item, which is one. of those scarcely ever exported, the aim of the producers being to meet the local market. In drought time, however, the aim and object of the Governments of the States have been to import, or assist the farmers: in importing it. How long has this duty been on?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– So far as I know, since the beginning.

Mr PROWSE:

– I should like to know the revenue that comes into the exchequer from this item. As a matter of fact, its importation, as a rule, does infinitely more harm than good. Many of the pests with which we have to contend, and which have done millions of pounds’ worth of harm, were imported in hay, chaff, and seed. There is no real protection, or even assis tance, given by this duty, which, in my opinion, only cumbers the Tariff. This is not the way in which the grower of hay and chaff can be assisted. I would not be one to impose this duty when there was starving stock in Australia. If any one wished to import chaff in competition with the Australian grower, this duty will not prevent him.

Mr Stewart:

– If you leave the duty it will enable the Ministry to say that they are protecting the Commonwealth.

Mr PROWSE:

– That is so. In 1914, as I have already intimated, I grew a cereal that cost me £3 10s. a bushel. The local Government seized it at 6s. 8d., and imported Argentine stuff at 12s. 4d., and the Federal Government removed the duty that was in my favour in order to favour the general public. In the face of these experiences, one looks on these duties with a certain feeling of amusement.

Mr GIBSON:
Corangamite

.- This small duty is not going to benefit the industry. Personally, I would welcome absolute prohibition, of the importation of hay and chaff. We know what happened during the 1914 drought, when many weeds were brought in whichwe have been unable to exterminate. Very great care should be taken to see that hay and chaff imported are free from these pests. In my own district, where small quantities of fodder came in during the drought, we can see traces of the weeds all over the countryside.

Mr Mathews:

– Can .you see that they are exotic plants?

Mr Gibson:

– There are all sorts _ of plants, including the Californian thistle. The Government should see that imported hay and chaff come from countries where none of these weeds exist.

Mr FLEMING:
Robertson

.- A little while ago I was speaking strongly in favour of as low a Tariff as possible for corn, and now I wish to support the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. Gibson) in his contention that the importation of hay and chaff should be prohibited. I do this for the same reason which actuated me in proposing to keep down the duty on corn. The introduction of corn brings in no pests, whereas any practical man knows that hay and chaff bring in innumerable specimens. There are such weeds in Australia that have cost, and will cost, hundreds of thousands to destroy - the consequence of careless importation. The point is, however, that, no matter how careful we are, by no method of analysis can we detect all those dangers. For instance, dodder in lucerne has defied any method of inspection, and there are other pests, which do not occur to me at the moment, but which are quite a3 dangerous. When chaff is introduced, as in New South

Wale3 during the drought a few years ago, it is found in nearly every case to be more or less useless, not worth putting out to feed stock. Then, further, such importations are certainly dangerous from the producers’ point of view; and the Government would be well advised, despite the fact that it is necessary to introduce corn in times of drought, to prohibit the importation of hay and chaff, which at best are only used as a substitute for the more concrete, if I may so term it, forms of feeding.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Personally, I rather favour the prohibition of hay and chaff, but that is a step we cannot take on this occasion. I promise honorable members, however, to give consideration to the matter, and see whether we should not go the whole length of entire prohibition. For feeding stock, imported hay and chaff are precious little good; and I thoroughly agree that the most economical feed we can import is probably grain or cake of some kind.,

Mr Stewart:

– Some more concentrated form of food.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Quite so.

Item agreed to.

Items 60 (Herbs, dried, not medicinal) ; item 61 (Honey, jams, jellies, &c.) ; item 62 (Hops) ; and item 63 (Isinglass) agreed to.

Item 64 -

Lard and lard oil and refined fats, n.e.i., per lb., British, Id.; intermediate, lid.; general, 2d.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That the word “refined” he left out with a view to inserting in lieu thereof the word “edible.”

This amendment is really to facilitate departmental administration more than anything else.. The reason for it is that the Federal analyst tells us that it is exceedingly difficult to discriminate be1 tween what is refined and what is unrefined fat, whereas it is possible to discriminate between the edible and the nonedible.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Items 65 (Linseed cake and oil cake) and item 66 (Linseed for the manufacture of oil and cake, &c.) agreed to.

Item 67-

Linseed meal, per cental, 4s.

Mr PROWSE:
Swan

.- The Minister might tell the Committee why he places this duty on linseed meal. Are the growers up against any serious competition ?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is not linseed cake.

Mr PROWSE:

– No; but it is a very necessary factor in many directions.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is a .by-product of an Australian industry.

Mr PROWSE:

– Is there any serious competition? This commodity is used greatly, is it not?

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- This item has been in the Tariff for a long time, and it is not proposed to raise it on the present occasion. As I say, linseed meal is the by-product of one of our industries, and as we protect an industry so we protect its by-products.

Mr Gibson:

– It is simply linseed crushed, with the oil still in it.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is possible to get linseed meal with the oil exuded, as well as linseed meal with the oil in it.

Item agreed to.

Item 68 (Linseed, n.e.i.); and item 69 (Liquorice) agreed to.

Item 70-

Macaroni and vermicelli, per lb., British, 1d. ; intermediate, l½d. ; general, 2d.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- It is claimed by those interested in the manufacture of macaroni and vermicelli that the duty should be considerably increased in order to protect the industry in Australia. In normal times, the importation of macaroni and vermicelli is over £5,000 per annum, notwithstanding that Australian factories are fully equipped and are manufacturing these products under clean and wholesome conditions in accordance with our Pure Poods Act. The imports are chiefly from Italy. .

Mr Fleming:

– Where the product is manufactured under dirty conditions.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I believe that is so. Our manufacturers have to comply with the provisions of our Pure Foods Act, so the least we can do is to give them adequate protection.

Mr FLEMING:
Robertson

.- I rise to support the request made by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton). There is not the slightest doubt that, in the country referred to, macaroni and vermicelli are manufactured under conditions that would not be tolerated in Australia. Our industries should not be subjected to unfair competition. These commodities are the product of hard wheat, and as we can produce the raw material in unlimited quantities, and equal in quality to the hard wheats from any other. part of the world, except, perhaps, some of the provinces of Canada, we’ ought to do what we can to encourage our own manufacturers.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Neither the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton) nor the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Fleming) has signified what he proposes to do.

Mr Charlton:

– Make the duty 2d., 3d., and 4d.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have already increased the duty 100 per cent, for the purpose of accomplishing what the honorable members have in view, as I believe the imported macaroni is manufactured elsewhere under conditions that would not be countenanced in Australia. It is difficult to get the exact figures, but we used to import over 500,000 lbs. of these commodities yearly, though in 1918-19 the figure dropped to 81,000 lbs.

Mr Fleming:

– That was under war conditions.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes, and I understand there was some slight advance in importations in 1919-20 ; but, on the other hand, the Australian production has risen to 2.240,000 lbs. I think it likely that if we put a little higher duty on the general Tariff, the position would be met.

Mr Mathews:

– If British merchants imported macaroni from Italy, and then sent it to Australia, would it be admitted under the British preferential Tariff ?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– No; because in the case of goods re-exported from Britain, it is necessary, if they are to enjoy the preferential rates, that they sha 1 be 25 per cent, in value of British origin.

Mr Mathews:

– But Italy was an Ally in the late war.” Should not imports from that country come in under the intermediate Tariff?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– No. The intermediate rate is inserted for bargaining purposes, but we do not propose to enter into any reciprocal Tariff arrangements without the approval of Parliament. If we see a chance of doing trade with any other country with some of our primary products upon which, say, there is a high Tariff, we can negotiate, using this intermediate Tariff as a basis upon which to bargain. If such negotiations are satisfactory, the arrangement will be embodied in a Bill, and presented to Parliament. In regard to this item, if it is the wish of the Committee, I am prepared to increase also the intermediate Tariff, and I therefore move -

That the item be amended by adding the words, “ And on and after 20th May, 1921-, British,1d.; intermediate, 2d.; general, 3d.”

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 71 (Malt Extract, non-spirituous, &c.) and item 72 (Malt, including granulated, &c.) agreed to. . . Item 73- {: #subdebate-15-0-s48 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Min ;ster for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I desire to move some e .tensive amendments in this item. When we were framing the Tariff, we did not notice that the wording in this item did not agree with the practice of the trade. We took the Tariff exactly as it stood, but no manufacturer packs 100 matches in a box.. They are packed in either larger or smaller quantities, and so we propose now to bring the wording of the Tariff into conformity with the usual trade practice, because there is reason to believe that, hitherto, the duty has been evaded to some extent. This amendment will not, except in regard to the larger boxes, increase the rates. I move - As the item stands at present, it is not applicable to the practice of the trade, as boxes are not packed with the quantities stated, and we desire to bring the Tariff "into actual . line ; with' the' trade practice, Generally speaking, the, "amendment will have exactly the'same' effect as1 to'' the rates to be collected as obtains under the existing 'Tariff. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -In order to allow honorable members an opportunity to analyze the Minister's amendment, could the consideration of the item be postponed? Mr.GREENE. - I have no objection to postponing the further consideration of it until after the dinner adjournment. Item postponed. Item 74 (Meats, poultry, game, and soup) agreed to. Item 75 (Milk, including cream). {: #subdebate-15-0-s49 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- Why has the Minister separated sweetened and- unsweetened preserved milk, although the same rates of duty attach to each? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We are simply preserving the old arrangement of the Tariff, because they are two distinct lines of goods. Formerly the duties were different Now they are the same. Item agreed to. Item 76 (Mustard) and item 77 (Mustard seed) agreed to. Item 78- {: #subdebate-15-0-s50 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- I ask the Minister . to consent to the substitution of- the . word kernels" for " unshelled '.'. in . paragraph *v,* and . the word " unshelled " for kernels "' in paragraphe. The effect of the alteration would be to make the duty on kernels 2d., 2d., and 3d., and on unshelled nuts, 4d., 4d. and 6d. in the respective columns. The. reasons for these, alterations are - As to paragraph d, nut kernels- are imported mostly for manufacturing ' purposes, being used extensively by confectioners, pastrycooks, and biscuit and cake manufacturers. Although almonds are grown in various parts :.of Australia, yet the total crop at no time has approached within 50 per cent, of the consumption. Owing to the high prist of labour and the difficulty of removing the kernel in a sound condition, only a small proportion are offered unshelled. - A large manufacturer has repeatedly tried to purchase his requirements withoutsuccess; in fact, twelve months' purchases are not equal to one-twelfth of his consumption. As to paragraph e, nuts in shells are mostly used for dessert purposes. The bulk of the Australian crop is sold for this trade owing to the reluctance of the grower..to undertake the removal of the nut from the shell. Pastes and meals are made locally from the kernel, and, therefore, should be protected. The alteration asked' for would not make much difference to the Tariff, but would certainly make it moreacceptable to' thosein tere ted in theconfectionery and kindred trades.- {: #subdebate-15-0-s51 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert .- The peanut-growing industry is becoming somewhat important in the' north. A friend ofmine, who has 25 acres under peanuts, expects before long to have at least 100 acres under the same crop. He tells me that the nuts come' out of the ground perfectly white, and ready to go on the market, and that the tops form the best food cattle could have. I am told that cattle fattened on peanut tops are fit to go into any show in Australia. *The Peanut Promoter,* a journal which is devoted entirely to the peanut industry of America,- givesIlustrations of the various classes of machinery employed in handling the nuts, and contains a photograph of a convention of peanut-growers called for the purpose of promoting the industry. In the United -States of America there are 1,250,000 acres under peanuts, and the estimated yield in 1920 was 450,000 tons. In addition, a large area is. hogged down. That is' to say, pigs are turned into the crops to be fattened. The United States of America also imports 70,000,000 lbs. of peanuts, principally from Japan and Manchuria. At Marrickville, in Sydney, a large factory has been built for treating peanuts and extracting peanut oil. lt produces milk, butter, and an oil which, when refined, is equal for salad-making purposes to the best olive oil. It is significant that the *Commonwealth Y ear-Book* makes no mention of this splendid edible product. But it is not merely an edible product. Only the best nuts go into the market for edible purposes. The others are used for the purpose of extracting oil. Even in America, where the industry is so well established, the growers are asking for protection against imported peanuts and last week Australian growers asked me to put in a plea for a duty of ' 6d. per lb. on . nuts used for the extraction of oil. The nuts treated at the Marrickville factory are mainly imported ; but the factory can readily take all that can be produced in Australia. However, the growers are asking for an increased duty of1d. per lb. The bulletin of the United States of America Bureau of Agriculture shows that from November, 1919, to August, 1920, the importation of peanuts into the States amounted to- shelled, 66,021,965 lbs.; noshelled, 13,291,017 lbs. These figures indicate what a big industry it is. An increase of1d. per lb. on the duty imposed here would considerably help to promote the peanut-growing industry in Australia. We import nuts from Japan and Manchuria, where wages are 6d. to 9d. per day, whereas labour in Queeusland costs 14s. to 16s. per day. The request of the growers is a very reasonable one, and I hope the Minister will grant it. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If the honorable member chooses, I am willing to make peanuts a special item, but I am not prepared to increase the -duty upon unshelled nuts all round. {: .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr Watt: -- What, put a special duty upon peanuts? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am inclined to do that. {: .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr Watt: -- Has the Minister the figures relating, to the production of peanuts within the Commonwealth? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The latest figures in iny possession relate to production for the year 1917, but I know that there has been' a considerable increase since then. In the last year for which statistics are available, 239,306 lbs. of peanuts were produced in Queensland. There is also a considerable production . in New South Wales, but I do not know exactly what it amounts to. I. do know, however,' that large areas have been put under peanuts since these figures were compiled. One may safely say that the production to-day is quite double what it was in 1917. I have no special figures relating to imports. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- If the Minister assures me that he is willing to make a special item of peanuts at 4d. I shall be content. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am prepared to do that. {: #subdebate-15-0-s52 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I know that Captain Baird has recently formed a company which is about to undertake the cultivation of peanuts at Cooktown upon a large scale. I understand that the Minister is willing to increase the duty upon unshelled nuts by1d. per lb. under the general Tariff, and to increase the duty under the intermediate Tariff by. an equal amount. If that be so, his proposal -will meet with general approval. Amendment (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to - >That the following words be added to the item : - "And on and after 20th May, 1921, (?) Peanuts, per lb., British, 2d.; intermediate, 3d.; general,4d. {: #subdebate-15-0-s53 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- Does the Minister intend to give any consideration to my suggestion that the word "kernels" be substituted for. the word "unshelled" in paragraph (d), and that the word " unshelled " be substituted for the word " kernels " in paragraph (e) of this item? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I -have considered it, but I cannot see my way to agree to it. Possibly, if I Had a little more time to look into the matter, I might be able to arrive, at . -some arrangement of that sort. If after due inquiry I . find that something, upon the lines suggested by the'honorable member is desirable, I promise him that I will recommit the item. Item, as amended, agreed to. Item 79 (Oilmen's Stores). {: #subdebate-15-0-s54 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- I ask the Minister whether the verbiage of this item has been altered from the form in which it appeared in the 1914 schedule, which contains the words " not elsewhere dutiable at a higher rate " ? I do not know whether the retention of these words is necessary, and I have' been wondering whether under this item goods dutiable at a higher rate may be admitted at a lower rate than that specified. {: #subdebate-15-0-s55 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The amendment of which the honorable member has spoken was made in the 1914 Tariff. I have not with me the precise reasons which actuated the Minister of that day in taking the action which he did. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- It is not intended under this item to admit goods which are dutiable at a higher rate? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -I do not think so. The words to which the honorable member hasdirected attention would be so much surplusage in the schedule which we are now considering, because the Customs Act provides that under the Tariff the highest duty which can be charged upon any goods shall be charged. The probabilities are that those words were struck out because they were not actually required. Item agreed to. Item 80- >Onions, in their natural state, per cwt., British,1s.; intermediate,1s.; general,1s. 6d. {: #subdebate-15-0-s56 .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr GIBSON:
Corangamite .- The onion-growing industry in Victoria has points of similarity with the banana industry in Queensland. I am sorry that I have no film with which to entertain honorable members during the dinner adjournment. Had I been able to present a moving picture of the oniongrowing industry, honorable members would be struck with the fact that, whereas men employed in banana-growing were seen travelling about the country in motor cars, onion-growers would be depicted crawling along on their knees weeding their holdings. The industry is suffering perhaps more than any other primary industry in Australia. In my desire to secure increased duties, I feel certain that I shall have the support of the whole of the members of the Labour party, seeing that they are determined that Australians shall not consume any importation winch has been produced by black labour. At present the price of onions is £3 per ton. That is an unprofitable figure; it is impossible to grow onions and market them for such a return. The industry is not one which is carried on upon any large scale. Generally, only a few acres are sown, probably in conjunction with dairying and mixed farming. Present prices for onions are having the effect of driving growers into a strong association. They have had to combine for their own protection. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Among their disabilities, it is a fact that onion land is about the highest priced of "all. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr GIBSON: -- Yes; the cost is about £100 per acre, which apnroximates to the cost of banana land in Queensland. The production cost is about £30 per acre, which is approximately the same as in the case of bananas. But the return from the latter amounts to about £180 per acre, while for onions the return varies from nothing to £100. The average rent paid for onion ground in Victoria is £7 per acre. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- How can the high values for onion land be maintained when the industry is unprofitable? {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr GIBSON: -- They have been maintained through a few good seasons; and, during the years of the war, there was not much imported produce to compete against. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr Lazzarini: -- Are the onion-growers satisfied with a duty of1s. per cwt.? {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr GIBSON: -- They are not. I shall furnish honorable members with statistics concerning costs of cultivation. This involves, ploughing, scarifying, harrowing, and, by other means, working the soil; and the cost is calculated at £2 , 10s. 6d. per acre. The cost of seed is £11s. ; that is to say, 3 lbs. to the acre at 7s. per lb. Sowing with hand drill costs 8s. per acre. Cleaning during the growing stage, based on a wage of1s.6d. per hour, amounts to £8. Skinning costs 103. per acre. Bags for a 6-ton crop are calculated to cost £4 4s. per acre. Twine, and sewing bags, on the basis of a 6-ton crop, means an outlay of11s. 6d. Stripping, at the rate of ls. per bag, amounts to £3 12s. Carting to the railway station, at the rate of 7s. per ton, involves an expenditure of £2 2s. Loading and weighing, together, add a further 9s. The total cost per acre for growing and placing on trucks is set down at £30 Ss. lt is calculated that the average annual area under onion crop in Australia is 6,000 acres, and that the average yield is 4½ tons to the acre. Taking the return at 6 tons to the acre - the present price being £3 per ton - the oniongrower's return amounts to only £18, while his costs are more than £30 per acre. I trust, therefore, that the Minister will agree to an increase of the duty from ls. 6d. per cwt. to 6s. per cwt. - that is, to £6 per ton. Honorable members may be interested to know that Australians get most of their onions from Japan. Importations from that country last year amounted to 43,796 cwt., valued at £32,631. The total importations for 19.19-20 were 55,245 cwt., valued at £39,326. From the United Kingdom we got only 62 cwt., valued at £60. From New Zealand, 7,S92 cwt., valued at £4,363; from other British countries, 49 cwt., valued at £61 ; from China, 32 cwt., valued at £50; and from the United States of America, 3,053 cwt., valued at £1,695. The enormous preponderance of our importations came, as I have just shown, from Japan. The local objectionis not in respect of importations from countries where the produce is grown by white labour, but there is a very great objection to the great proportion of our imports coming from Japan. There, the onions are grown under conditions which, if the Australian consumer were aware of them, would put an end to his desire to purchase the Japanese product. The cultivation is carred on in very small lots, generally in back-yards; and I am not willing to indicate the kind of manure used. The. Australian industry requires adequate protection, or it will be crushed. I ask for a substantial increase. Deputation after deputation has waited on the Minister for Customs from different districts in Victoria, which State grows practically the whole of the Australian produce of this kind. If the onion-growers were to ask for the same degree of protection as the banana-growers succeeded in getting, their request would be for a duty of about £9 per ton. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.* {: #subdebate-15-0-s57 .speaker-KI9} ##### Mr LIVINGSTON:
Barker .- I agree with the honorable member for Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** that the duty on onions should be at least £6 per ton; indeed, I would prohibit the importation of onions. There is an immense area of land in Australia on which onions can be grown, but, unfortunately, growers now get a price which hardly compensates them for their labour. The growing ofonions is difficult and expensive, and we should do all we can to assist the growers. {: #subdebate-15-0-s58 .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr GIBSON:
Corangamite .- I move - >That the following words be added : - " And on and after 20th May, 1921, per cwt., 6s." Most of the work of the onion-grower has to be done on hands and knees; to grow onions effectively one has almost to crawl over his land. Onion-growing can be carried on profitably only in connexion with dairying and on small areas - areas of about 10 acres. The rental for onion land goes from £7 to £10 an acre, and this year onion-growers are losing at the rate of £12 an acre. {: #subdebate-15-0-s59 .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa .- I think that the duty proposed by the Minister is much too low, and I am prepared to vote for any increase up to 4s. a cwt. But, in my opinion, a duty of 6s. a cwt... or £6 a ton. isaltogether too high. {: #subdebate-15-0-s60 .speaker-JOG} ##### Mr BAYLEY:
Oxley .- I hope that the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** will allow the onion-growers to have more protection. The industry is a necessary one, and needs encouragement. We have always favoured industries which enable the small man to go on the land, and onion-growing is an occupation for men with little capital. It calls for hard work, and the product, which is a perishable one, has to be marketed between April and November, those months being included. We should protect our growers from the competition of Japanese onions, which are imported about July or August. {: #subdebate-15-0-s61 .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr JACKSON:
Bass .- I support the amendment. Japanese onions ought not to be allowed to come here as they have been doing. I make no apology for voting for what is practically the prohibition of importation, because I told my constituents that I would try to prevent the importation of Japanese onions. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Would there be any objection to a reduction of the duty whenever onions were selling at £50 a ton? {: .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr JACKSON: -- If we encourage onion-growing, onions will never be £50 a ton. It is an old saying that " an onion a day keeps the doctor away." {: #subdebate-15-0-s62 .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay .- I askthe Minister whether, if we shut out foreign onions, the locally-produced onions will supply Australia during the whole year? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes. A crop of white onions is marketed early in the season, and with it and the late crop the market can be supplied for the whole year. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 73 (Matches) amended and agreed to. Item 81- >Peel, preserved in liquid, including the weight of the liquid, per lb., British and intermediate,1d. ; general, l½d. {: #subdebate-15-0-s63 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
Robertson .- In conformity with my action last night, in moving for the protection of the citrusgrowers, I ask the Minister to increase the duty on peel preserved in liquid by ½d. per lb. in the general Tariff, making it thus 2d. per lb. {: #subdebate-15-0-s64 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .-I agree to that. I move - >That the following words be added: - " And on and after 20th May, 1921, per lb., British, 1d.; intermediate, l½d.; general, 2d." {: .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr Jackson: -- I am glad that the duty is to be increased; but is the increase sufficiently high? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think it is sufficient to meet the case. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Item 82 (Pickles, sauces, chutney, olives, and capers). {: #subdebate-15-0-s65 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .-I move - What I have proposed is a re-arrangement of the item, making, in reality, only two amendments, one of which is a reduction from1s. 9d. to1s. 8d., and the, other taking capers and olives out of the general item, and placing them in a special subitem, so that these fruits may be packed in Australia. {: #subdebate-15-0-s66 .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Will the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** explain what is meant by "Soy, for sauces, in packages con taining over 10 gallons, as prescribed by departmental by-laws"? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Soy is an ingredient largely used in the manufacture of sauces, and is, I think, imported almost entirely from China. It is an. extract from the soya bean. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Is not soy used in the manufacture of margarine? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is not used at all for that purpose. It is used solely in the manufacture of sauces ; at least that is the only use to which I know it is put. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- We ought to be very careful in dealing with this item, as I can recall reading an article in an agricultural magazine, issued by one of our State Governments, where it was said that a preparation made from the soya bean was used in the manufacture of margarine. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am sure it is not the same material. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- The honorable member for Melbourne **(Dr. Maloney)** is also under the impression that it is the samematerial, and if we allow it to come into Australia free for use in the manufacture of sauces, it might be used in making margarine. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member will see that it is clearly stated in the schedule that soy is to be used for sauces. Lt is subject to regulations under departmental by-laws, which allow it to be used only in the manufacture of sauces. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- Then, do I understand that the Department can prevent it from being used in the manufacture of anything else? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes. We can impose a duty, and soy admitted under this item can only be used for the manufacture of sauce. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- If I were to import 100 tons of this commodity, I could say that it was to be used in the manufacture of sauce, although I might utilize it for some other purpose. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We secure an undertaking from the manufacturer, and satisfy ourselves from his books that he is using it for the purpose for which it was imported. It is only when it is imported for use in the manufacture of sauces that it is admitted free. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Item 83 (Potatoes) agreed to. Item 84 - >Rennet - (a) In liquid form, pergallon, British, 6s.; intermediate, 7s.; general, 8s. (b) N.E.I., ad val., British, 25 per cent.; intermediate, 30 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. {: #subdebate-15-0-s67 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- With your permission, **Mr. Deputy Chairman,** I desire to make a personal explanation in regard to an attack made upon me by the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene),** who charged me wilh giving incorrect information to the Depart ment in connexion with a matter to which I previously referred. At that time, I had the schedule issued prior to the one which was adopted by this Parliament, and I was pointing out the change that was being- made. I find that in this schedule there is one item in the first portion and two or three towards the end that are on the free list, as well as others. I rather resented the statement of the Minister when he asked the Committee to believe that I was not right in the statement I was making, because I have endeavoured to be very careful. I have not the privileges of the Minister in dealing with matters of this kind, but I have always endeavouredto be as fair as one can possibly be in dealing with questions of this description. In connexion with the duty on rennet, honorable members will notice that importations in liquid form are subject to a duty of 6s., 7s., and 8s. per gallon, and n.e.i. 25 per cent., 30 per cent., and 40 per cent. I uttered some very strong statements in connexion with this matter in the general debate, and I now desire to refer to the action of the Minister - who was probably advised by his departmental officers - in placing an embargo on the importation of goods, particularly when the Minister assumes the power to place embargoes on importations on the advice of the officers of his Department. Rennet is a commodity required in connexion with the manufacture of cheese, which is one of the big industries of this country. The Minister, probably at the behest of the Department, placed an embargo on the importation of rennet into Australia. It is a very difficult proposition to make good rennet, especially when the veils are not available for the purpose. I have in my possession nearly a hundred statements, which have been received from all parts of New South Wales, Victoria, and some from South Australia, complaining of the action of the Department in imposing an embargo on rennet, and which was shortly afterwards removed. I mention this to show that the Minister and his officers can also make mistakes, because when they found that their action was destructive to the industry, 'the embargo was removed. I lay particular stress upon the action of the Department in this instance, because I desire to emphasize the necessity of the power being placed in the hands of the Parliament instead, of the Minister. The Minister recognised that principle when dealing with carbide, because he submitted a motion to Parliament when it was decided to place an embargo on the importation of carbide. When one considers the peculiar difficulties surrounding the manufacture of rennet in a country such as Australia, it must be admitted that special provision should be made in the Tariff to protect such an important industry. I move - >That the item be amended by adding the following words : - " And on and after 20th May, 1921, free." {: #subdebate-15-0-s68 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I trust the Committee will not agree to the amendment submitted by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory).** I admit that the manufacture of rennet is more or less a difficult process, but I draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that during the war the cheesemaking industry would have come to an abrupt termination if the local manufacturers had not set to work to manufacture rennet. A considerable quantity was made, and it was found by the cheese manufacturers to be entirely satisfactory, although there were isolated cases where it was not so. It is a delicate process, and the production of the veils was difficult work, which required to be handled by men of long experience before the satisfactory nature of the veils could be guaranteed. Since the time to which the honorable member referred, when there were complaints, a number of people have been devoting a good deal of attention to the production of this necessary commodity. The New South Wales Abattoirs Board has given attention to the matter, and it is now turning out a thoroughly satisfactory vell, so that if our supplies should be cut off at a moment's notice one of our great primary industries is not likely to suffer very severely. Now that the industry has been established and is employing a large number of men, I think it would be a retrograde step to place this article on the free list. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- What is the value per gallon? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Two hundred gallons were imported into Victoria at 19s. 5d per gallon, and the average price would be about 17s. 6d. per gallon. The duty proposed represents about 33 percent. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Specially strong and pure rennet is valued at 25s. per gallonc.i.f. Melbourne. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- On that basis the duty would be about 24 per cent. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Most of it comes from Denmark and from Russia. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, and some is also imported from England. I do not think it would be wise to admit it free, and I ask the Committee to adhere to the; proposed duty. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- How long has theDe-. partment been collecting this rate? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- For a little over twelve months. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- And cheese is- now being; manufactured under this Tariff? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes. Of course, it has been manufactured for a considerable time past. We can only say, looking back on our experience in connexion! with this matter, that it is desirable to continue the manufacture of rennet in the Commonwealth, and we should, therefore, give the industry some encouragement, particularly when the actual quantity used is comparativelysmall. {: #subdebate-15-0-s69 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong .- I hope that the amendment will be rejected. During the war it fell to my lot to visit the Commonwealth Laboratory, where **Mr. Wilkinson,** the CommonwealthAnalyst, who did magnificent work during the war, was successful in manufacturing: rennet, if he did not originate its manufacture, in Australia. The British Government had said that owing to the necessity for conserving shipping space we should, as far as practicable, supply our own requirements in Australia. It was impossible during the war for makers of cheese in this country to import rennet, and, but for its manufacture here, cheesemaking in this country would have come to a standstill. If at any time an attempt is made to take undue advantage of manufacturers of cheesein Australia, the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** will have in **Mr. Wilkinson** a gentleman'-who will be fully competent to advise him. Now that we are practically self-contained in connexion with the manufacture of cheese, we certainly . should not allow rennet made in Denmark and in other countries to be admitted free of duty to the Commonwealth. We should give some protection to those who have gone to the trouble and expense of manufacturing rennet in Australia. They have produced an article which is satisfactory to our cheese-makers, and it has not been found that the quality of Australian cheese has deteriorated as a result of the use of Australian-made rennet. The rennet industry is a valuable adjunct to the more important industry of cheese-making, and we should do what we can to protect it. {: #subdebate-15-0-s70 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Swan .- It is right enough to protect the great cheesemaking industries, but we shall not do so by imposing a duty on rennet. In imposing this duty the Minister for Trade and. Customs **(Mr. Greene)** is departing from an important principle of the Tariff. Under the item immediately before that which we are now considering a number of articles of manufacture are made dutiable, but the raw material essential to their manufacture is admitted free. Rennet is essential to the manufacture of cheese. It ia not a big item, but it is an essential factor in the manufacture of cheese, and we should have the best we oan obtain. We cannot expect to compete with other countries in manufactured articles if we do not use the best materials. The Minister should recognise the principle that the raw materials of an industry should be admitted free of duty. The manufacture of rennet can never be a very big industry, but cheese-making is a very important industry, and we should consider it in dealing with this question. {: #subdebate-15-0-s71 .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL:
Echuca .- I support the amendment. I have here a sheaf of correspondence from all the principal butter factories and dairymen's associations of the Commonwealth, protesting against a duty on rennet. We should be guided largely by what these people have to -say. I ; shall read one letter from **Mr. James** Cameron, representative in London of the 'Victorian Butter Factories Association, as it is typical of the other correspondence that has been received. Writing under date 18th June, 1920, he says : - >With reference to the impost of a duty of 8s. per gallon on foreign manufactured rennet and 6s. per gallon on British manufactured rennet, I wish to draw attention to thefact that this is an injustice to the cheese producers of Australia. 1 understand that- one of the principal objects in imposing this duty is to foster local manufacture. To carry this out it means that it will cost the producers of Australia thousands of pounds.' This does not altogether seem a fair proposition, more especially as it is made with the object of bolstering up an industry that will never be a success for the following reasons: - > >There are not sufficient calf veils obtainable in Australia, for the reason that the dairyman does not as a rule kill all his calves. He invariably keeps the best heifer calves, and if the price of stock is a payable one he will not kill the steer calves either, and even when he does kill themhe will not bother about saving the veils, as the price obtainable for these is so low. For calf veils to be *good* they have to he taken when the calf is a few days old. The law of the country here prevents the selling of calves under a certain weight. Consequently, the calf . has to. be kept until it is too old before being killed, and on this account a great many of the veils are useless. Again, it is impossible to . rely upon the veils, as the climatic conditions are against them. . In Continental countries the veils are taken from the coldest climates, such as the north of Russia, . and they are taken when the calves are very young. > >The price of good imported foreign rennet is fully 10s. per gallon cheaper, and almost twice the strength of that of the local manufacturer. The latter can be proved by the evidence of the principal manufacturers of cheese. Even if the locally manufactured article could be made of the same strength, there is not anything like enough to supply the requirements. > >Special strong pure rennet can be supplied at 25s. c.i.f. Melbourne, Sydney, or Brisbane. Here is another letter from **Mr. Edmund** Turrell, secretary to the Queensland Cheese Manufacturers Association - > **Mr. Galbraith** has handed me your letter of the 20th instant, referring to the Government prohibiting importations of rennet, and asked me to reply, as this association had already taken the matter up, with . the Minister for Customs .... > >Locally-made rennets have been used by our manufacturers, and the results have been unsatisfactory, the strength of the article being unreliable. Prices were from 30s. to 35s. nor gallon. Canadian rennet has been given a trial. Two small trial shipments gave good results, but a large shipment gave very unsatisfactory results, and I understand that agents here now decline to' handle any more of this particular manufacture. All this correspondence goes to show that the rennet that is being manufactured in Australia does not meet the requirements of local cheese manufacturers. I am of opinion that in the circumstances foreignmade rennet should be allowed to come into Australia free. The cheese manufacturers of this country say that unless they can procure good rennet at a reasonable price they must be content to make poorer cheese or go out of the business altogether. Question - That the words proposed to be added be so added (Mr. Gregory's amendment) - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 19 NOES: 25 Majority . . . . 6 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Item agreed to. Item 85 (Rice), item 86 (Rice root), and item 87 (Sago and Tapioca) agreed to. Item 88 (Salt, and table preparations thereof in packages). {: #subdebate-15-0-s72 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- I notice that the duty on this item has been increased from 15 per cent, to 20 per cent, in the case of importations from Great Britain, and from 15 per cent, to 30 per cent, in the case of imports from other countries. I am not going to- protest against the increase, but it' seems to , me to be a very largo one in respect of ah item of general use. . Item agreed to. Item 89 (Salt). {: #subdebate-15-0-s73 .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh .- This item offers me a favorable opportunity to enter my protest against combinations of manufacturers that are operating to-day contrary to the best interests of the community. In my contribution to the general debate, 'Imentioned that the wholesale warehousemen were the greatest factors ' controlling prices, but that there were manufacturers - fortunately limited in number - who did not recognise their obligation to give the people their products at a reasonable price. I find that there- are certain associations or combinations of manufacturers working to the detriment of the people. There is a Salt Refiners and Manufacturers Association; and the InterState Commission, in one of its', reports, states that the Association has an agreement binding the manufacturers and refiners to certain methods of distribution and prices. This organization controls the whole industry. It not only fixes prices, but. according to what is best in the interests of its members, determines the area in which this man or that may trade. I understand that each member of the Association has to put up £250 as " a guarantee that he will observe any agreement that is arrived at. The salt companies have also made an undue increase in their profits during recent years, and consumers have not received at their hands the consideration that is due to them in respect of a commodity that is used by every family. When I learn of any combination acting to the detriment of the people's welfare, I do not hesitate to voice my protest against it. notwithstanding my adherence to the policy of Protection. In respect of, not only salt, but biscuits, rice, cereals, pickles, jams, and soaps, there are associations and combinations working against the best interests of the general community. There are in my electorate quite as many industries as there are in any other Commonwealth division, and I realize my duty to those of my consti tuents who . are employed in connexion with- them: One of these industries is that of soap-making, and I find that soap manufacturers have not only increased their prices, but have decreased the weight of the bars or packages, sold by them. It would not be right for me to allow this opportunity- to pass without protesting against such action. The Protectionists in this House are prepared to help our industries, but we expect those engaged in them to give a fair deal to the rest of the community. Even the most ardent supporters of Protection vote for some items with 'a- greater degree of satisfaction than they have when voting for others: I am- sent here to protect and encourage Industrie's,, not merely for the future welfare of the country, but to secure an immediate advantage to those who are employed in it, by the institution *of* better conditions in employment, having due regard always to the protection of the -consumer" from the avarice of commercialism, 'either in the form of the warehouseman or manufacturer. I. am hopeful that the Board which the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has agreed to appoint will review the circumstances in which many local products are distributed, and also the prices charged for ihem, especially foodstuffs and clothing. {: #subdebate-15-0-s74 .speaker-JMG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson: -- The honorable member must confine his attention to the item of salt. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN: -- I was endeavouring, so to speak, to put a little salt on the manufacturers, and to induce them to recognise their duty, to the people and the persons they employ.. I make no apology for the protestI have uttered, and trust . that the Board which is to be appointed by the Minister will give attention to these matters, which so vitally affect the interests of the people. {: #subdebate-15-0-s75 .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier .- It appears to me that the remarks just made by the honorable member for Hindmarsh **(Mr. Makin)'** will have to be taken with a considerable quantity of salt. He complains of combinations who fleece the public, but at the same time intimates that he is going to further protect these people in their robbing of the public. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- I support the giving of increased protection to these industries because of the men engaged in them. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- The honorable member is only making his case worse. If he supports a Protectionist Tariff on the pretext that it is going to benefit the employees in a specific industry- {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I rise to a point of order. I do not wish to interrupt honorable members, but I submit that 'we are now drifting into a general debate. I suggest that the honorable member should confine himself to the' item immediately before the Chair, instead of discussing monopolies,, combines, ' and things in general. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN The honorable member will not be in order unless he connects his remarks with the item before the Chair. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- It is somewhat strange that when it is a question of giving support to these industrial brigands in their efforts to get something more out of the public, the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** is silent; but that as soon as an honorable member commences to criticise them, the Minister, : who is putting this Tariff through in their interests, rises to object. If we are not to discuss the actions of the people who are benefited by this protective duty on salt, then why continue the farce of pretending to debate the Tariff? The action taken by the Minister confirms the statement I made during the general debate; that the whole Tariff was cut-and-dried, and that the discussion of it was a mere piece of " tomfoolery." The honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** complained that there was no interest taken in the Tariff. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order! The honorable member mustconfine his attention to the item of salt. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I think it. is - salt that is stinging. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The honorable member is rubbing in the salt. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Hence the protests from the other side. If the statement of the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** that the people do not take an interest in the proceedings on the Tariff is correct, the tenor of the debate, so far, has justified their valuation of what happens here. The combinations, companies, and industrial concerns particularly interested in salt were criticised by the previous speaker, who complained that they took an unfair advantage of the Protection given to them and unduly harassed the public. If honorable members condemn these commercial enterprises for fleecing the public, and know that they are doing so, I cannot understand honorable members supporting these concerns in what they are doing, and helping them to do it more effectively by increasing the duties on the very articles which they are manipulating {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- They can do it in any circumstances under the present system. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Then the honorable member should take up the same attitude as I have done. He should tell the public that it is immaterial to them what is done with the Tariff, and that they should get rid of the exploiters, and let the Tariff go to the devil. {: #subdebate-15-0-s76 .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- The honorable member for Hindmarsh **(Mr. Makin)** has accused the people who manufacture salt of forming a. combine, restricting the output, and restraining those to whom the salt is issued for retail purposes. Will the Minister state whether that sort of thing will be dealt with under the Bill which he intends to introduce? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, certainly. If the Tariff Board reports to the House that the manufacturers are taking undue advantage of the Tariff, it will be for the House to say whether the duty shall be continued. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -- That does not cover all I want to get at. It is alleged that - certain actions are in restraint of the trade in salt, which is a necessity. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If the Board find that a company is acting in restraint of trade, or charging too much, or making undue profits, the Board will have the power to report what is happening to Parliament, and it will then be for Par- liament to decide what shall be done. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903 -I am satisfied with the Minister's explanation. I should also like him to tell the Committee why he has increased the duty. Is it for revenue purposes, or to give further Protection? {: #subdebate-15-0-s77 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There is no advance in item 89, so far as the United Kingdom is concerned. Under sub-item *a,* salt from the United Kingdom is free, and under sub-itemb, salt, n.e.i., from the United Kingdom, is subject to a duty of 20s. per ton. All the rocksalt we import comes from Great Britain. Still there are rock-salt mines in Germany and elsewhere, and I thought it desirable to give the United Kingdom a bigger preference than heretofore. I raised the general Tariff rate for that purpose. Item agreed to. Item 90- >Sausage casings, free. {: #subdebate-15-0-s78 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Swan .- Before I vote for this item I should like the Minister to say if none of these sausage casings, or sausage rennets, are manufactured in Australia. Here is this wonderful principle again. These things are free, and that was the principle I advocated *on* another item a little while ago. I should like to be able to follow the Minister's logic, in order to be as consistent as I possibly can be in voting on the Tariff. {: #subdebate-15-0-s79 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The reason we have suggested no duty on this item is that we export large quantities of sausage casings. Nobody has ever asked for a duty on the manufactured casings. We produce a great many more than we actually require. It is true that at times we import certain quantities, but no one has ever asked for a duty on them. Item agreed to. Item 91- {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Seeds and nuts n.e.i. for the manufac ture of oils, oil-cake, and other by-products as prescribed by departmental by-laws, free. 1. Seed - canary, hemp, and rape; also mix tures in which such seeds predominate n.e.i., per cental. British preferential, 4s. ; intermediate, 4s.; general, 5s. {: #subdebate-15-0-s80 .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay -- I understand that I am not able, on account of the ruling of **Mr. Chairman,** to move for any duty on an item that does not appear in this schedule. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- The Chairman has not ruled so at all. {: #subdebate-15-0-s81 .speaker-JMG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson: -- Thehonorable member will not be in order in moving for the introduction of any new item. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- Then I can only make an appeal to the Minister. In this item cotton seed oil and castor bean oil are not provided for. The manufacture of those articles would mean a great deal for many parts of this continent, more particularly in Queensland. The castor bean is now being grown very largely in Queensland, and is proved to yield about 50 per cent, of oil, which is as good as that produced in any other part of the world. There is no protection whatever on it, and we want to encourage this industry. Honorable members desire a larger population in this continent, and to establish this industry would be one way of insuring it. It would give good employment, not only to the men who would grow the beans, but also to those who would manufacture the oil. Then, as regards cotton seed oil, the Bureau of Science and Industry says that the consumption is about 4.000 tons per annum. Cotton is now being largely grown in Queensland, where it is anticipated that we shall have no less than 3,000 acres under crop. That area will produce 3,500 tons of seed cotton, from which will be obtained 500 tons of lint and 1,000 tons of sued. Surely that quantity is of sufficient magnitude to justify us in giving some protection to the oil produced from cotton seed grown in the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Cotton seed appears in item 92. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- It is the oil I am speaking of. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Cotton seed oil is protected, {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- Castor bean is not. I should like the Committee to understand the importance of both these industries to Australia. Any encouragement that can be given to growers of cotton seed or castor beans will be a matter of great importance to the Commonwealth, and there is no protection on castor bean or cotton seed. {: #subdebate-15-0-s82 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- There is a duty on cotton seed, and so long as cotton seed is being produced in Australi a we shall not prescribe it under departmental by-laws as included in sub-item a of item 91. That is, we shall not admit it free. The oils made from castor beans and cotton seed are protected. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- The Department could not tell me. where. They suggested to me that I should get them included in this item. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member will find in item 229, sub-item f, that castor oil is subject to a duty of 6d. per gallon under the British preferential Tariff, and 8d. per gallon under the intermediate and general Tariffs. All the things the honorable member mentioned are protected, except the castor bean. There is no protect on in the Tariff for it, and no item which includes it. The reason I have not included castor beans in the Tariff is that all my inquiries went to show that you could not at present expect to have a reasonable quantity of them produced in Australia. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- You can get any quantity you want if you give the industry encouragement. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There is no question that the plant will grow in Australia. It does grow prolifically in many parts of the Commonwealth; but the seed cannot be gathered at any one time. You do not get a crop which ripens so that the whole of it can be taken off at the one operation. The seed goes on ripening all the time. My information, so far as it goes, is that this seed has to be gathered by hand all the time, as it were, from week to week and day to day as it ripens. That is the reason this commodity is left Out; but I promise to look further into the matter, and, if necessary, I shall.see that some action is taken before the Tariff is finally disposed of. I now have to move as a mere drafting amendment - >That the letters " n.e.i." in sub-itema be left out. The reason for this is that if the item, as it stands, was strictly and literally interpreted, the effect, without the amendment, would be to exclude seeds and nuts, which are elsewhere included in the Tariff. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Does that mean that it will be at the Minister's discretion to admit all seeds and nuts free for manufacturing? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It does not mean that at all. Amendment agreed to. {: #subdebate-15-0-s83 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr MACKAY:
Lilley .- Has the Minister received any request from the Queensland growers in regard to canary seed? Just recently, I received a communication from them informing me that owing to an extraordinarily heavy crop it has been suggested that a Pool be formed. I have seen some of the wholesale seedsmen, who agree that the price is -extremely low and the demand very small. The UnderSecretary for Agriculture in Queensland has given me some figures, which show that in 1915 there were 15 acres under cultivation, producing 4,800 lbs., whereas in 1917 there were 7,596 acres producing 4,406,904 lbs. That fell away in 1919 to 226,599 lbs. from 1,698 acres, and in 1920 there were 2,500 acres under crop, producing 2,000,000 lbs. I am informed that the seed grown in Queensland is of very good quality, and the wholesale merchants of Sydney and Melbourne are quite prepared to buy it at a reasonable price. From time to time, however, they are troubled with imports from Argentine, Turkey,. Morocco, and Japan, and I suggest that the Minister might raise the British and intermediate duties by 2s., and the general rate by 2s. 6d. {: #subdebate-15-0-s84 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am prepared to agree to that suggested amendment. The importations come principally from Morocco, Turkey, and Japan, and as we are now producing in Australia all we require, I move - >That the following words be added to subitemb: - "And on and after 20th May, 1921, per cental, British, 6s.; intermediate, 6s.; general, 7s.6d. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Item 92 (Seed - cotton, kapok, and sesame) agreed to. Item 93- >Seed - Lucerne, per lb., 6d. {: #subdebate-15-0-s85 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
Robertson .- Lucerne seed occupies rather an unusual position. A great number of returned men who have been given land in New South "Wales, and, I presume, in other States, have settled on "small areas for the purpose of growing lucerne. I have re ceived a letter from a number of such returned soldiers asking me to move the Minister in the direct.on of prohib.ting the importation of lucerne seed. That sounds rather drastic, but I think it is essential that it should be done, not only for the protection of the man who grows the seed, but also for the protection of our pastures and crops. By the introduction of foreign lucerne seed, we have already brought into this country more than one great menace to our cultivationfields. I have here a letter from the Primary Producers Union of Aberdeen, New South Wales, from which I should like to read one or two extracts. The meeting of the union was specially called to consider the question of imported lucerne seed, and the following is from a report of the proceedings - >They would remember that, owing to the grave danger of the introduction of foreign noxious weeds, this branch made representations some time ago to have the importation of all foreign seed prohibited. The Government of the day, recognising the wisdom of this, met the request by imposing what they reckoned was a prohibitive duty of 6d. per lb., and, as a further safeguard, issued a regulation that all imported seed should be stained so that it could be identified. However, the drtv and regulationhave now been suspended. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is not so; . the duty has never been suspended. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- Then what as to the regu'ation that imported seed must be stained? Has that been suspended? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes; but I shall explain by and by. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- These people on whose behalf I speak are deeply interested in this industry, and know what they are talking about. In my electorate, and just north of it, in the electorate cf New England, and also in the Hunter electorate, are found the greatest lucerneproducing centres in Australia, capable of supplying all the seed requirements of the Commonwealth. Another representative at the meeting said - >Merchants were very loath to admit that they stocked imported seed. However, he knew definitely that some seedsmen had offered to do business. Dealings in this class of stuff would be most lucrative to merchants so enpaged, hence the traffic in this inferior article. This seed would be sold out to the unsuspecting farmer as prime HunterRiver, Tamworth, Mudgee, or any brand the buyer fancied. Again it was contended - that there was no justification, for the suspension of the duty, or, more especially, the staining for identification purposes. One representative said - >Owing to access to it, this inferior seed had been re-exported from here as best New South Wales grown, with a result that our trade had been ruined, and New Zealand had now prohibited us landing lucerne seed there at all. If we kept clear of imported seed we would soon get our good name back, and trade also. The position is that not only have some of our fields been destroyed, but, as stated at the meeting by a man from New Zealand, who has resided for some time in New South Wales, imported seed carries so many dangers that we have destroyed our trade with the sister Dominion. I impress on the Minister the absolute necessity - if we are to do any trade, and maintain this necessary fodder in its pure state - of prohibiting the imported article, especially in view of the fact that Australia can produce a'l we can possibly require. The dangers of importation are much greater than any benefits that can be derived. {: #subdebate-15-0-s86 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The duty was never suspended after being put on. This is the first time there has been any duty on this commodity, and it has been collected. There was a regulation issued in connexion with the staining of imported seed. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- Was not the importation of seed altogether prohibited? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No; there was a prohibition on importation, but it was merely technical in order to secure the staining. It was subsequently discovered that the stain prescribed interfered with the germinating powers of the seed. As a consequence, we felt we had to withdraw the regulation. However, we set to work to find another stain, and the Commonwealth analyst has been successful. We now use rouge, which produces the desired indelible effect, and does not interfere with the germinating powers. The fact will soon become known throughout the trade, and it will be impossible to sell the imported for the Australian seed. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- What about the other dangers ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That matter has been very carefully inquired into, and keen supervision is exercised. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- You cannot examine the whole. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Bulk samples are taken and gone through carefully. At the present time, I think, it would be a hardship to some of our producers if we absolutely prohibited importation. However, that is a matter which we cannot deal with here, and I only desire to explain what has been done. The honorable member for New England **(Mr. Hay)** has also interested himself in the matter, and he knows that I have taken a considerable amount of trouble in this connexion. {: #subdebate-15-0-s87 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- I am in accord with the honorable member for Robertson **(Mr. Fleming).** It is quite true, as the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** states, that, prior to the present Tariff, there has been no duty on lucerne seed, and I find that a great deal is coming in. A return shows that, during the last twelve months, Victoria imported £2,000 worth, chiefly from South Africa. This South African seed is sold 5d. or 7d. cheaper than the Hunter River seed, although the latter is probably the best in the world. It is now proposed to impose a duty of only 6d., which means that the South African seed may be brought here, and sold at the same price as the Australian seed. Probably many farmers who do not know the difference may purchase the imported seed for Australian. The Minister has done good work in imposing a duty of 6d., but I think' he might add another 3d. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- Make it a shilling. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I Would agree to that, for the duty certainly ought to be higher than is proposed in the Tariff. It is more satisfactory to produce our own seed, and know that no pests are being intro1duced. The South African seed can be produced much more cheaply owing to labour conditions, but as our own seed is second to none, and can be produced in abundance, our farmers should have the benefit. It is bringing about ls. 5d. to 2s. 2d. per lb. This duty is not going to make lucerne any dearer, for the simple reason that at present the South African seed is being sold at from 5d. "to 7d. per lb. below the price charged for the Australian product. Would it not be better to add something to the duty in order to make sure of the market for the local article? -It is a fair request. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- Any man who knows anything about lucerne seed admits that our seed is worth double the price paid for the imported article. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Exactly. It is better in every respect, and, therefore, we ought to encourage its use. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- "Will you accept 9d. in the general Tariff? {: #subdebate-15-0-s88 .speaker-KGV} ##### Mr HAY:
New England .- As the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has mentioned, I have taken a considerable amount of interest in the production of lucerne seed. Lucerne is our greatest insurance during a period of drought. My constituents have brought this question under my notice, and I want to emphasize the danger of introducing very serious pests in imported lucerne seed. The Minister has told us he has consulted the Government Analyst, and I am satisfied that the regulation, which was suspended but which is now in force, meets the case, so far as the staining of imported seed is concerned, but, in my judgment, the duty is inadequate. I would prefer to see it raised to1s. 6d. per lb. The honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. Charlton),** who represents one of the most important lucerne districts in New South Wales, and the honorable member for Robertson **(Mr. Fleming),** whose constituents also grow large quantities of the seed, are both satisfied that we can produce enough for the whole of our requirements. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Can you say if the South African seed suits certain climates ? {: .speaker-KGV} ##### Mr HAY: -- I am not considering the climatic conditions at all. I am considering the evil results that might follow the further introduction of South African seed. All those who are engaged in agricultural and pastoral undertakings know that this country is loaded with imported pests introduced chiefly in fodders from other countries. At a certain period of the year the Cape weed covers Victorian fields with a carpet of yellow flowers. We should: take every care to prevent the introduction of further pests. I move - >That the item be amended by adding the following words: - "And on and after 20th May, 1921, per lb.,1s. 6d." {: #subdebate-15-0-s89 .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL:
Echuca .- I hope, the Committee will pause before agreeing to the higher duty suggested by the honorable member for New England **(Mr. Hay).** Surely the introduction of impurities in seed can be got over without actually prohibiting the introduction of the seed itself. In Victoria alone thousands of returned soldiers are engaged in the dairying industry on small areas, upon which they are producing lucerne, and I say it would be absolutely criminal to penalize them to the extent of an extra 1s. per lb. for their lucerne seed. What is wanted is better supervision over the seed that is imported. I appeal to the Minister not to accept the amendment submitted by the honorable member for New England, and I also urge him to take adequate measures to see that imported seed is absolutely pure. I have been informed recently - I am not in a position to stand up to the statement - that impure lucerne seed has been imported from other countries, sent to the Hunter River district, and from there to all parts of the Commonwealth, branded as Hunter River lucerne seed. Our Agri-. cultural Departments should take steps to check this practice. {: #subdebate-15-0-s90 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield -- I agree with the honorable member for Echuca **(Mr. Hill).** We all admit that Hunter River lucerne seed is. the best in Australia, and I think our farmers will have it if they can get it, even if they have to pay a higher price for it. But it is quite conceivable that the South African seed may be preferred for some climates, although as a general: rule the Hunter River seed is asked for. It is unnecessary to increase the duty to1s. 6d. If there is to be any increase at all, I hope the Minister will not agree to more than 3d. upon the present Tariff. {: #subdebate-15-0-s91 .speaker-KI9} ##### Mr LIVINGSTON:
Barker -- It would be a mistake to increase the duty upon this important fodder. Instead of having any duty at all we ought to let it come in free, in the interests of our agriculturists. I know of no. other product, saving perhaps sugar beet, which is of greater value to our producers. {: #subdebate-15-0-s92 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In face of the opinions expressed by the several farmers' representatives, who; have spoken, it is - rather difficult for me to determine what is right and proper. I have said , that I will agree to make the general Tariff 9d. I think that meets the views of most honorable members who have spoken. {: #subdebate-15-0-s93 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
Robertson .- I should like the Minister to give us an assurance that something will be done to prohibit the importation of seed which may be dangerous to the producers of Australia. A very real danger is to be apprehended from the introduction of impure lucerne seed. I have done some practical work myself in connexion with lucernegrowing, from the actual preparation of the fields to the reaping of the lucerne seed, so I am not speaking as a theorist. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I will undertake to do whatever is possible. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- It is possible, by very careful inspection of small quantities of seed, to prevent the importation of pests; but the position is different when the Department is called upon to handle bulk quantities of lucerne seed. The officials might handle the better part of a ton, but if the last few pounds are not closely inspected there is always a danger of the introduction of some seed pests from South Africa or South America. The honorable member for New England **(Mr. Hay)** has emphasized that lucerne is our greatest stand-by in our time of drought. It has saved Australia millions of pounds, and, as the honorable member for Barker **(Mr. Livingston)** has pointed out, quite a large number of returned soldiers now engaged in the dairying industry require the lucerne seed for their fodder paddocks. Surely the honorable member does not think that I would advocate anything against the interests of our returned soldiers. The locally-grown seed is worth twice as much as the imported article; but, unfortunately, most of these men do not know that. They have had no practical experience, and so they are induced to buy the imported seed. I again ask the Minister, if he does not increase the duty, to give us an assurance that there will be the strictest supervision over the importation of lucerne seed from other countries. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to- >That the item be amended by the addition of the following words: - "And on and after 20th May, 1921 (general), 9d." Item, as amended, agreed to. Item 94- >Soap - (a) Toilet, Fancy, or Medicated, per lb., British, 6d.; intermediate, 8d.; general, 9d.; or *ad valorem,* British, 35 per cent.; intermediate, 40 per cent. ; general, 45 per cent, whichever rate returns the higher duty. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. N.E.I., Soap Substitutes and Com pounded Detergents for washing and cleansing purposes, not including saponaceous disinfectants, *ad valorem,* British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. {: #subdebate-15-0-s94 .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL:
Echuca .- I cannot let this item go through without raising my voice against any further Protection being given to the soap manufacturers of this country. The prices charged at present are outrageous. Our honorable friends on the other side now have the chance of a life-time to do something against the soap manufacturers' Combiue which exists, not only in this country, but in every country of the world. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- That is the fault of the honorable member's supporters. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 -- Why ? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Because they would not give us power to check Combines. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL: -- I do not know whether this Tariff was designed for the purpose of creating a nation of millionaires and paupers, but I am very much afraid that many of the items will have that effect. Twenty-five years ago I was engaged in an industry in which I handled a large quantity of tallow. To-day I can buy it at a lower price than I paid. then. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- At what price could you buy it two years ago? {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL: -- To-day I can buy the best mutton tallow in tins at from £14 to £15 per ton. Two or three years ago it was worth about £60 per ton. But what reduction has taken place in the price of soap and candles? Practically none. Therefore, I hope our friends opposite will oppose the granting of any further protection to one of the greatest Combines we have in our midst until they are prepared to give some of the benefits of it to their consumers. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Will the honorable member be prepared to vote in the direction of fixing the price at which they can Bell their commodity? {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL: -- Yes. {: #subdebate-15-0-s95 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports .- If the honorable member for Echuca **(Mr. Hill)** had studied economics, he would have realized that even without Protective duties we would have millionaires and paupers. It is quite true that the price of soap is too high; but the fault lies with those who would not give this Parliament the power to prevent the local manufacturers from imposing high charges on the consumers. If we appealed to the people to-morrow to give us further legislative powers, those who are talking Free Trade to-night would oppose the granting of them. {: #subdebate-15-0-s96 .speaker-JNV} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN {Mr Bamford:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND -- The honorable member is out of order. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- It is remarkable that, although the price of tallow has fallen from nearly £100 per ton to under £20, the price of soap has not decreased proportionately; but the trouble is that there has not been an all-round reduction in the cost of living. The men employed in making soap are still being paid high wages - I hope their wages will be even higher - and, as the honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** has pointed out in regard to flour, if the bakers got their flour for nothing, the consumers would still be obliged to pay 7d. per loaf for their bread. In just the same way, if the soap manufacturers got their tallow for nothing, the. people would not get their soap for nothing. The duty under review ought to appeal to honorable members in the Corner, because it affords an opportunity for protecting the primary producers of fat. Honorable members laugh, but do they claim that the fact that tallow is a marketable commodity is of no use to them ? Then, they might as well, say that the hide of the animal they grow is of no use to them! {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- At present it is of very little use. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Just at present it might not be, but a little while ago it was worth a considerable amount. The price the primary producer gets for his tallow from the local manufacturer must be of some use to him. The home market is always the best. Other matters besides the price of tallow must be taken into consideration with regard to the manufacture of soap. I hope that we will make the conditions in Australia the best we can. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- For the manufacturer? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The honorable member would assist us if he helped us to get the powers necessary to prevent the manufacturer from making huge profits. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- I" will help you. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- At the last referendum on this question the Echuca electorate voted five to one against' the proposals. I hope that the Government will adhere to the duties on soap as set out in the schedule. Honorable members on this side will not help millionaires. If we were given the power to do so we would speedily pluck them. {: #subdebate-15-0-s97 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield -- I would like the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** to state his reason for having increased the duty on soap, but before he does so I ask him to compare the conditions obtaining during the war with those at the present time, and to remember that the two big soap manufacturing companies in Australia, which practically determine the price of this article on the Australian market, are largely owned by British companies. British interests predominate in one, and in the other they are nearly equal to the Australian. The big drop in the price of raw material has not resulted in any reduction in the price of soap. In my opinion, the encouragement given to this industry in the previous Tariff was more than ample, and I shall require very strong evidence from the Minister to justify any increase. If the increase is agreed to we shall soon be obliged to consider the position of the Combine that determines the price of the commodity. {: #subdebate-15-0-s98 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- Honorable members are complaining about the duty on toilet, fancy, or medicated soaps, because there has beenno increase, so far as the British preferential rates are . concerned, in the duty upon soaps n.e.i., under which heading all household soaps fall, and 'the household soaps which came into Australia in previous years - ' not in any very large quantity, because 'the local manufacturers practically" covered the whole market - came from, the United Kingdom. Honorable members say that we should not retain the duty because there is a Combine operating here and in Great Britain; but even if action were taken which made it cheaper for the British companies to dump their soap here iustead of purchasing our tallow and manufacturing it locally, they would do it. It would be exactly the same Combine, or exactly the same controlling force) and Australia would not be any better off. Indeed, it would be worse off to the extent that the commodity was not being manufactured here. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- There are other manufacturers outside the Combine. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Exactly, and that is the point to which I am coming. There are manufacturers outside the Combine which keep it in order. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- They are not strong enough to do it. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think they do. But at ali events we are giving them an opportunity to try to do it. The manufacture of toilet soaps was to all intents and purposes not established in Australia prior to the war. We imported them from the United States of America, the United Kingdom - not very much from there - Germany, and France, and some from Italy. But during the war, when supplies of these costlier soaps were cut off, the local manufacturers set out to make them, and I have raised the duty in order to try to retain the industry here. It means more than the actual utilization of tallow, because other valuable industries are created in the making of boxes and in the packing of these fancy soaps. There are all sorts of ways in which the industry helps- others and the country generally. The manufacture of toilet soaps is undertaken by quite a number of firms in Australia, and is- not at all confined to the two companies to which the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Richard Foster)** has referred. In fact, it is proportionately distributed to a much greater extent than is the making of household soap. Prior to the war we imported well over £100,00.0 worth of toilet soaps every year.It is a valuable industry to try to preserve, and for that reason I have left the British preferential rate as it was inregard to household soaps, but have raised the duty slightly upon toilet preparations and fancy soaps. {: #subdebate-15-0-s99 .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL:
Darwin .- I shall support any proposition to reduce the duty to , the level of the previous Tariff. The soap-making industry has been well protected in the past and has flourished. Therefore, an increased duty seems to be unnecessary. The Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has not told us that he thought an increase was really necessary. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have already said that the toilet-soap industry was not established before the war; but it is established now, and I thought that it was worth while endeavouring to retain- it. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- It does appear to. me that the protection of 40 per cent., which is accorded to the industry under, the intermediate Tariff, is more than, is necessary. The measure of protection previously extended to it, namely, 30 per cent., was ample. The price of, tallow to-day is very, low, and the price of soap is very high. Taking everything into consideration, it appears to me that the proteotion which we are at present giving the industry is ample. {: #subdebate-15-0-s100 .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh .- There are somewhat extensive works connected with the soap industry in Australia. Some of the firms engaged in this industry are, I believe, associated with Lever Brothers, which represents a Combine. If it were essential to establish or protect from unfair foreign competition by reason of inferior industrial conditions, the- soap-making industry within the Commonwealth, I would give- it all the protection that was necessary ; but; as I declared previously, I am not a. revenue Protectionist, and, therefore, as the industry stands at present, I cannot see the justification for an increase on household soap. Of the soaps annually used in this country,,82,000,000 lbs. are manufactured locally, whilst only 1,468,000 lbs., are imported. Moreover, the importations consist chiefly of fancy soaps. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have not altered theduty upon household soap. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr MAKIN: -- Then I am quite satisfied. {: #subdebate-15-0-s101 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- In reply to the remarks of the, honorable member for Echuca **(Mr. Hill),** I would point out that the cost of tallow has fallen considerably during recent months. As a matter of fact, the price of almost every commodity that we have been discussing has materially declined during the same period. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- But not in the same ratio. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Compare the price of hides with the prices which are being charged for boots. I could cite dozens of instances of a similar character. This is a question which will have. to be faced in the near future. "We must take the necessary action fo prevent our manufacturers exploiting the people of this country. So far as soap is concerned, it is in a similar position to that occupied by tallow. The great body of men who use tallow in mining enterprises have been compelled to pay three times its prewar price for it. The same remark is applicable to soap. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The price of tallow has fallen considerably. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- But it has not fallen to the extent that it should. Some time must elapse before articles of this character decline to reasonable prices. But that is no reason why we should not attempt to buttress our own industries. Soap making is not confined to a couple of companies in the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There are about sixty or seventy firms engaged in it. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Many of those firms conduct operations only in a small way, and some of them are located in country towns. Consequently they must be protected, and as we are about to impose an additional duty upon ordinary soap, I see no objection, to the duty which it is proposed to levy upon fancy soaps. We shall have to do something in the near future to insure profitable employment to our own people, because nobody knows what the next two or three years will bring forth. It is possible that we shall experience a very trying time. Fancy soaps are luxuries, and if people want them they should be compelled to pay for them. {: #subdebate-15-0-s102 .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr JOWETT:
Grampians .- I hope that the Committee will support the proposal of the Minister **(Mr. Greene).** As has been pointed out by the honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. Charlton),** it is not proposed to increase the duty upon household soaps from the United Kingdom. These are the soaps which are used by the multitude of the people in Australia. There is, however, a proposal to increase the duty which is at present levied upon fancy soaps. - That increase, in the case of toilet, fancy, or medicated soaps from the United Kingdom, amounts to only 5 per cent. It is a very small increase, and I shall support it upon the ground that these soaps are generally absolute luxuries. They are mainly used by the rich, and if the. ordinary household soaps are not good enough for them, they should be obliged to pay a little more for their luxuries. It is in the highest degree desirable that articles of luxury should pay duty upon a considerably higher scale than should articles of necessity. This is a clear case of granting protection to an industry without doing harm to any considerable body of persons. {: #subdebate-15-0-s103 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- In regard to household soap, I imagine that we could almost dispense with any duty whatever. The industry has been established so long, and the raw product is sold, at such a cheap rate, that we ought to be able not only to supply the requirements of oar own people in the matter of ordinary soaps, but to become large exporters of them. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I hope that we shall be, before long. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- So far as toilet soaps are concerned, I have here statistics relating to the operations of the huge English Combine which has been created. - a Combine which has its tentacles here in Australia. There are certain local firms which are part of that huge combination, and we ought not to give our support to such a monopoly. I desire *to* help forward trade with the Empire, and particularly with Great Britain {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr Lazzarini: -- To which soap monopoly does the honorable member refer? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- To Lever Brothers. The Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has already pointed out that a large quantity of these soaps come from Germany and Italy. I am not prepared to grant any concession to these countries. But I think that we ought to endeavour to build up trade with the United Kingdom. I cannot follow the arguments of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports **(Mr. Mathews),** because. it has nob been shown that in these industries any great care has been taken of the workers. Complaints have been made of the high cost of living, and in almost every country of the world the wages paid have been better than those paid in Australia. The people who have been making fortunes here have not been too careful of the interests of the workers. {: .speaker-KLL} ##### Mr Makin: -- But prices are based upon the capacity of the people to pay. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- We have been going absolutely mad in this Chamber during the past few days. I am satisfied that a day of reckoning will come. I move - >That sub-item a be amended by adding after the words " 35 per cent." the words "And on and after 20th May, 1921, per lb., 5d., or ad val., 30 per cent. (British)." {: #subdebate-15-0-s104 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- One must admire the pertinacity of a good Free Trader like the honorable member for Dampier, who, nevertheless, is nob a Free Trader in the scientific sense of the word. He has advanced the same old argument about the existence of a Combine. But if this Parliament chooses bo do so, it can legislate to control that Combine. The Soap Combine in England is one of the greatest in the world. But surely the honorable member will agree that no more important pronouncement has been made by a manufacturer than that which was recently made by Lord Leverhulme, who is the head of Lever Brothers. He has gone so far as to advocate a six-hour day, and' for that I thank him. He was one of the first men in England to reduce the working day to eight hours. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- And well he might. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I quite agree; but when one is not expecting it from such a source, there is all the more credit in that it should have emanated therefrom. He also reduced women's working hours to seven per day. He built healthy cottages at Port Sunlight, where the death-rate was not one-half what it was, only 2 miles distant, in one of the suburbs of Liverpool. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- And the poor people all over the United Kingdom paid for it. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Possibly. Nevertheless, his was a splendid example, which was not followed all over Britain - because the House of Commons did not do its duty, just as this House does not do its duty. If Lord Leverhulme were to introduce a six-hour day in Australia,, his example would be followed much more widely and swiftly by Australian manufacturers than by those in the United Kingdom. I would prefer not to see 1 lb. of soap come into Australia. Are we not capable of making all our own requirements? If there should be a. combine charging unjustly, there is a limitation of prices upon which this House can insist. I hope the honorable member for Dampier- **(Mr. Gregory)** will not continue to advance the old ' argument, " It will build up a big combine here." I agree with the sentiments expressed by the honorable member for Port Melbourne **(Mr. Mathews).** I, too, if it were possible, would prevent anything coming into Australia that can be manufactured here - making this reservation only: that Parliament should control and insist upon the observance of fixed prices. And, further, when the law is broken in that respect, the punishment should be gaol. Fines are no good in the cases of rich combines. {: #subdebate-15-0-s105 .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa -- I am in sympathy with the desire to impose high duties in respect of all goods which are imported, but which could be adequately manufactured in Australia. My one objection to the imposition of duties is where . they apply to articles which5 are not made locally in sufficient quantity to fulfil our requirements. This reservation cannot apply, however, to the manufacture of soap. It is fallacious to say that the imposition of high duties is bound to build up monopolies; but even if that were the outcome, they would be monopolies which we could deal with. Does the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** think there is not a monopoly among the importing agencies? They are the most easily constituted, the most dangerous, and the greediest of all monopolies. I have been pleased to listen to the arguments advanced to-night from the corner in denunciation of monopolists. I look for the support of honorable members of the Country party whenever motions may be launched from this side t to deal with monopolies and profiteers. I trust the proposed imposts will stand. I would support an even higher duty on soap. {: #subdebate-15-0-s106 .speaker-KJM} ##### Mr JACKSON:
Bass -- I desire, very briefly, to call attention to one interesting phase of the soapmanufacturing industry in Australia,It is now beginning to build up an export trade. Over-sea markets are being secured. Last year we exported, in fancy soaps, 500,225 lbs., of a value of £47,206 ; and in household soaps, 8,007,356 lbs, valued at £174,724. Mr.RILEY (South Sydney) [10.24]. - Some honorable members think that, so long as there can be provided common soap for the common people, there is no need to worry about anything,or any one, else. But there are such things as fine toilet soaps. "Why should not the common people, who are the backbone of this country, use good soap? Honorable members now want to put up the price of fancy toilet soaps in order to keep the common people from using them. I will not oppose the proposed duty, but I warn honorable members that the result will be that Lever Bros., and one or two other firms which control the industry in tha Commonwealth, will merely employ the opportunity to still further increase the price of toilet soaps. The English firm is making toiletsoaps in Australia today, and the imposition of this duty will not cause it to make any more here than at present. When we import toilet soaps from England we get them from a branch of Lever Bros. If we impose a high duty, that firm will import just a little of its English manufacture, and will then supply the local market with its locallymade article, upon which the price will have been put up. The poor people will suffer a little more, and the wealthy manufacturers will make a little more. Amendment negatived, Item agreed, to. Item 95 (Sparklets), item 96 (Spices), item 97 (Starch), item 98 (Starch flours, including custard powders), and item 99 (Straw) agreed to. Item 100 (Tea). {: #subdebate-15-0-s107 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- I do not propose now to enter into serious discussion of. this item further than to suggest that the Committee might agree to allow tea from within the Empire to come in free, and to impose a duty upon tea produced in foreign countries. Progress reported. House adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 19 May 1921, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1921/19210519_reps_8_95/>.