House of Representatives
19 August 1920

8th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 3642

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SEA CARRIAGE

Motion (by Sir JosephCook), by leave, agreed to -

That the Select CommitteeonSea Carriage have leave to sit during’ the sittings of the House.

page 3642

QUESTION

CLERK OF THE SENATE

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– In view of the early retirement of Mr. Charles Gavan Duffy, the Clerk of the Senate, whoseCourtesy to members of both Houses has become a proverb, will the Government give preference to returned sailors and soldiers in making appointments to the posts that will thus become vacant ? TheTe are men on the other side who were of military age. Cannot the principle of preference be carried throughout the length and breadth of the Public Service?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think that the appointments to vacancies on the staff of the Senate are within the control, and at the disposal, of the President, but I shall look into the matter.

page 3643

QUESTION

DISTRIBUTION OF COAL

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The Treasurer stated yesterday that the Borehole seam coal at Newcastle was to be reserved for the export trade, but I ask that, before hard and fast arrangements are made, recognition may be given to the fact that some of that coal is now used for bunkering the mail boats, and that a certain quantity of it is mixed with Maitland coalforspecific purposes. I have no objection, on general grounds, to the arrangement of which the Minister spoke yesterday, but I do not wish to see the ordinary trade interfered with.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Government in appointing an Administrator hopes that he will exercise the discretion which he will possess in making the best arrangements for the trade. No arbitrary distinction is to be drawn between one kind. of. coal from one colliery and another kind of coal from another colliery. The Administrator will look at matters broadly, and in the interests of. both the local and oversea trade will make such dispositions as may best overcome the difficulty that has arisen. I hope that he may be able to build up our coal stocks here without seriously interfering with trade oversea. My remarks yesterday merely indicated the broad general policy that is to be followed, which may be modified as circumstances may require.

page 3643

PAPERS

The following papers were presented: -

Butter - Agreement between the Commonwealth Dairy Produce Pool Committee of Australia and the Ministry of Food, Loudon.

Public Service Act. - Department of Trade and. Customs - Appointments of L. R. Sundercombe and W. MacGowan.

page 3643

QUESTION

INCOME TAXATION

Visiting Pressmen - Returns - Exemption

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Has the attention of the Treasurer been drawn to a paragraph in this morning’s newspaper, stating that a special effort was made by the Income Tax Department to collect taxation from the pressmen who accompanied the Prince ofWales on his visit to Australia, and does he propose to take action to refund the amount collected?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I was as much surprised as honorable members generally probably were on reading in the newspaper this morning of what had taken place. No doubt what has been done is perfectly lawful, but the action taken seems to be that of some very zealous officer. My feeling is that the pressmen in the entourage of the Prince were as much our guests as were the other persons who accompanied him, and I think that in the circumstances we must find a way out of the difficulty.

Mr.RILEY. - Is the Treasurer aware that a large number of prosecutions are taking place among the poorer classes for not filling in income tax returns, and that heavy fines are being imposed by way of penalty? In view of the fact that an increase in the exemption is likely, will be see into this matter?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I shall be glad to be furnished with concrete cases, but I. shall look into the matter. I understand that about 850,000 returns are furnished yearly, and only about 350,000 assessments made; thus a great deal of work has to be done which yields no revenue, but is none the less necessary to ascertain the incomes of the people. If the honorable member could suggest an automatic method of excluding those whose incomes are not taxable, and getting in returns from all those who should pay, he would assist the Department, and save the Government a very large expenditure.

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Treasurer come to a decision about increasing the exemption under the Income Tax Act,so that it may be put into operation in connexion with future assessments?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid that my answer must be that the exigencies of receipt and expenditure at the moment hold out little hope of large exemptions in the matter of taxation.

page 3644

QUESTION

COAL SHORTAGE

Ships in Ballast from Newcastle.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Will the Minister exercise the control he has over the clearance of the ships from the port of Newcastle, and compel vessels which are voyaging in ballast to Inter-State ports, to carry coal to the States where there is a shortage ?

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid the powers to which the honorable member refers, if they were exercised for any such purpose, would lead to very serious complications, and involve serious claims for damages.

page 3644

NEW GUINEA BILL

Bill presented by Sir Joseph Cook.

Motion (by Sir Joseph Cook) agreed to-

That this Bill bc now read a first time.

page 3644

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr GIBSON:
CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA

– I desire to make a personal explanation in reference to a paragraph which appeared in the Age this morning as follows: -

One fact emerged from the debate, and that was, according to Mr. Gibson (V.), that second-grade butter, which was “ unfit “ for Australian consumption, was eagerly purchased by the British public at high prices.

I made no such statement. What I said was that we held our second grade butter, that is not fit for consumption in Australia, for export to the East at 205s. What I desired to convey was that both the British and Australian consumer get first grade butter, and that the second grade butter goes to the East.

page 3644

QUESTION

THE BUDGET

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– I desire to ask the Treasurer when we may expect the Budget.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That question was asked me yesterday, and my answer was that the Budget will be delivered the moment it is ready. I hope its preparation will not now take long.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– That is very indefinite.

ADJOURNMENT (Formal).

Foreign Exchange and Customs Duties.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I have received an intimation from the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Bruce) that he desires to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., “ The basis on which foreign exchange shall be calculated for the purpose of determining the amount of Customs duties payable in respect of imports into the Commonwealth.”

Five honorable members having risen in their places,

Question proposed.

Mr. BRUCE (Flinders) [2.451.- This question has been raised by me before in the House, and subsequently the Prime Minister, in reply to an inquiry by me, gave an assurance that, subject to certain representations being made on behalf of France, he would deal with the matter within twenty-four hours. Those representations were all made some time ago, but I regret to say that the. matter has not been dealt with.

Mr Fenton:

-I rise to a point of order, in regard to which, however, I may be incorrrect. I understand that action has been taken against the Federal Government, or the Minister for Trade and Customs, in connexion with this matter, and I wish to know whether it comes within the same category as a case sub judice. If so, is the discussion in order ?

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Elliot Johnson:

– If the matter is not already before the Courts, or pending-

Mr Fenton:

– It is pending.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have no official knowledge of that; but if that is so, the honorable member for Flinders will not be in order in proceeding.

Mr Bruce:

– I had no knowledge of any action being taken, and I am merely raising this point -

Mr SPEAKER:

– One moment. I am given to understand that a writ has been issued in the matter. In that case, the honorable member will not be in order in proceeding to discuss a case with which the Courts are about to deal.

Mr Bruce:

– May I explain that I am not in any way challenging any action of the Government? It is necessary to collect Customs duties to-day, and to continue to collect them ; and all I wish to discuss is the basis on which those duties shall be assessed. I make no sort of reference to anything connected with the legality of any action of the Government in the past, or any action the Government may take in the future. No question of that kind is involved in my motion; I merely raise the question of the administrative rule we are going to follow in Australia.

Mr SPEAKER:

– If the honorable member proceeds on that line, he will be in order.

Mr BRUCE:

– I assure you, sir, I shall not in any way touch on any question that can come before the Courts, but refer only to such a question that Parliament may discuss. I have spoken on the subject before, and do not wish to weary honorable members ; but I may remind them of the present basis on which the calculations are made by the Customs authorities in determining the duty to be paid on any article. The present procedure is that, where any goods are invoiced in a foreign currency - to take an easy example, that of France - the Customs authorities take the numbers of francs which the goods have cost, and turn them into pounds on the par or gold basis of exchange, namely, 25 francs to the £1.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The pre-war basis?

Mr BRUCE:

– Yes.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is the mintage rate of exchange.

Mr BRUCE:

– It is so called ; but that is not the term generally used in popular discussion. The goods may have been bought for 5,000 francs, and when the account is settled for the goods the rate of exchange is taken at 50 francs, and £100 is paid. But when the goods arrive in Australia, the Customs authorities do not credit the statement that they have cost £100, but say that they cost £200, and proceed to levy duty upon the £200 at the rate Parliament has fixed. That naturally leads to goods imported from a country with a depreciated exchange costing a very large amount in comparison with the amount actually paid by the purchaser. The other side of the case is that some other countries, such as America, have an appreciated exchange, and the result is that such countries pay less in duty on goods imported to Australia than the rate Parliament has authorized to be collected. For instance, if the American rate of exchange is $4 to the £1 and goods are bought on that basis, $400 will buy only £100 worth of goods. When the goods arrive here, the Customs authorities refuse to accept them as having cost £100; but say that the cost was only £80, because the rate of exchange is $4.85 to the £1. Thus, on goods from countries which have a depreciated exchange duties are paid in excess of the rates fixed byParliament, whilst on goods from countries which have an appreciated exchange, the duty paid is less than the Department is entitled to collect. Never before in the history of the world have we had fluctuations of any magnitude in exchange. During the period of the war all nations took steps to keep up their own exchange. As honorable members know, Great Britain sold millions of pounds worth of foreign securities owned in Britain in order to keep the exchange stabilized. Other countries took similar steps. I have here the rates of exchange, high and low, of various countries, during the war period, on the date of the armistice, and at three subsequent dates, which prove my statement that during the war period there were no fluctuations of any magnitude in the exchanges of any of the great trading countries of the world -

The following figures show the world's rates of exchange in June of this year as against the par value : - Foreign Exchanges, *Times,* 15th June. Business was much quieter in. the foreign exchange market. New York again fell slightly, closing at 3.93¾. Francs depreciated further, Paris closing at 52f. 05c, and Brussels at 49f. 32c, but the lira was rather steadier at71lr. 62½. Marks were offered, closing at 157½ ; and Austrian kronen again weakened, to 575. The following rates were current yesterday : - Since the war economic conditions have been allowed to operate again, andex- changes have fluctuated in an extraordinary way; to-day France and Italy have a hopelessly depreciated currency. I should like to give the House certain con crete instances of the effect upon Customs duties of the fluctuating exchanges - I draw attention to the fact that our policy of preference to Great Britain is set at naught by the present system, for whilst Japan pays on £100 worth of goods, at 45 per cent., £37 6s. l1d., Great Britain pays, at 35 per cent., £38 10s. An extraordinary fact is that the Australian Association of British Manufacturers recently attended a deputation to the Minister for Trade and Customs, and protested against any alteration in the system of calculating the exchange. I had not the good fortune to be present at the deputation, but, perhaps, the Minister can tell the House the arguments put before him. It seems remarkable to me that the British manufacturer should make such a protest when he is being penalized in comparison with America and Japan, who are the greatest competitors in Australia of the United Kingdom ; the imports from Prance and Italy are almost negligible. I know a great number of British manufacturers, and I am inclined to think that their representatives would get rather a cold reception from their principals on the other side of the world on account of what they have done, because there is no true basis for a protest by Great Britain. There may be ground for a protest by Japan and America against the action I am urging the Government to take, but Great Britain will be benefited thereby, and lifted out of her present disadvantageous position. In the *Argus* of the 13th July the President of the Australian Association of British Manufac turers (Mr.W. C. Guthrie) is reported as having said to the Minister - >While the Association recognised that the development of Australian industries must have first consideration, it welcomed evidence that increased preference to British goods was next in importance. Recent Imperial legislation indicated clearly that Britain had taken protective measures against the present unsatisfactory condition of foreign exchanges. An Act was in force requiring the payment of licence-fees equivalent to the difference in exchange on all goods imported to Great Britain from Europe, a much more severe impost than that which arose from the Commonwealth methods of levying duty. I should like the Minister to inform me whether that speech is correctly reported. Mr.Greene. - Yes, because I replied that I was not aware of the facts which **Mr. Guthrie** stated. I have since ascertained that the Bill to which he referred has been introduced. {: #subdebate-8-0-s5 .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- If one thinks for a moment he must see that if the statement of **Mr. Guthrie** is correct the exchanges of the world are never to be regulated again, but every country with a depreciated exchange will have to pay a licence duty on its imports into Great Britain equivalent to the depreciation in the exchange. I was so startled when I read that statement that I cabled to London - >Stated here Great Britain has imposed licence duty countries where exchange depreciated equal amount such depreciation. Is there any truth in this statement?. If so, what? To that I received the following reply: - >Referring to your telegram Kith Secretary Customs interviewed has no knowledge of licence duty. > >Thinking, however, that there must be some basis for such a statement I continued my inquiries, and at last discovered to what **Mr. Guthrie** was apparently referring. It is not at all surprising to me that the Secretary of Customs knew nothing at all about the licence duty, because the duty had obviously never been imposed, and it would not be known to an ordinary man dealing with the commercial customs of Great Britain to-day. The Act to which he was referring is an Imports and Exports Regulation Act, designed to prevent dumping into Great Britain, and affording protection to key industries. There are a number of safeguards around the authorities in Great Britain in their administration of the measure which must be taken into consideration. A Trade Regulation Committee is established, which exercises control over the most important provisions of the measure. Part II. gives power to prevent dumping, and Part III. contains the provisions for safeguarding the key industries, and counteracting any possible flooding of them by imports from countries with an abnormal depreciation of exchange - these are the significant words employed - which are not adequately compensated by increased cost of production. Thismeans that the Act can l e enforced in respect to a country with a depreciated rate of exchange, which can producs on the pre-war basis of production, but not when the cost of productionhas increased in that country. From the exchange point of view, the measure is confined absolutely to imports from countries where therehas been no compensating increase in the cost of production, but the principal point to bear in mind in considering the matter is that no action can be taken except with the authority of a Trade Regulation Committee of seventeen members, ten of whom are chosen by the House of Commons. It is this Act which is the sole basis for the suggestion that Great Britain has done anything in the matter, and it has simply included in an anti-dumping Act designed to safeguard key industries a provision that a Trade Regulation Committee of seventeen members, including tenmembers of Parliament, may prevent imports from a country with a depreciated rate of exchange, where there has been no corresponding increase in the cost of production. It is a very small measure, in no way applicable to what is occurring in Australia. > >The other point is what is being done in other countries. America has been faced with exactly the same set of circumstance!, as apply here, or rather the position has been more accentuated there, because to-day the dollar is the highest currency in the world. Recognising the difficulty of the position, America appointed a committee of commercial lawyers to investigate it; and as the result of that committee's inquiries the principle of the rate of exchange of the day has been accepted and put into operation. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- What does that mean? {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- I can explain it in this way: Before the war, the Italian lira was worth19 cents ; in other words five lire equalled one dollar. To-day the dollar isworth 10 lire, and when goods are boughtinItaly they are purchased on the basisof 10 lire to the dollar. But if an American buyer purchases $500 worth of Italian goods in lire the American Customs charge him duty on the basis of$500 worth of goods. Under the system operating here, and operating in America until this committee of commercial lawyers effected a change, he would have been called upon to pay duty on the basis of$1,000. Another country which, perhaps, is on parallel lines with Australia is New Zealand, which hasnow accepted the bank rate of exchange and abandoned the gold basis, which Australia is still following. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- New Zealand has made it optional to take oneor the other. They allow the importer to pay duty on whichever basis favours him. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- There is not much doubt as to what the importer will do. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- They take the mintage rate of exchange in one case and the commercial in the other, whichever ismore favorable to the importer. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- I would be prepared to accept the same arrangement here. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That would not suit the Trade and Customs Department. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- Whichever method we adopt it should be the fairest to the importer in the sense that he docs not overpay what is due, but we need not go so far as New Zealand. The Government is entitled to collect Customs duty on the cost of goods. There is another side of this question which ought to be brought under the notice of the House, particularly in these times when we are experiencing such extraordinary financial difficulties and are in such trouble about our revenue. Under the system adopted by the Trade and Customs Department, goods from America and Japan pay less duty than we would actually be entitled to collect on the sterling value paid to those countries for the goods; and on goods purchased in France and Italy we get rather more duty than we are entitled to collect. {: #subdebate-8-0-s6 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Considerably more. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- Do not let us overstate the point. The case is quite strong enough without doing so. Here are some extraordinarily significant figures for the year 1918-19, the last available from **Mr. Knibbs** with regard to Customs returns - In that year we had nearly £36,000,000 worth of goods from countries on which we are losing money on Customs collections, and imported ab.out £2,200,000 worth of goods from countries where we get a small gain on Customs collections. The figures for 1919-20 are not available, but I should say that there is still a large balance of trade from America and Japan. I feel confident that the balance is at least £10,000,000 in favour of those two countries, and the loss of revenue in this way is startling. It must be remembered that the figures represent the declared value of the goods on which Customs duty was paid, and not the actual amount paid to America for the goods. Something must be added in respect to the fact that during the year the average value of the dollar was about 5s. sterling, whereas our Customs Department , accepted the basis as $4.86 to the-1 sterling. Similarly with the other countries the imports are overstated, because they are taken on the basis on which the Customs Department collected duty. In some figures which I shall give. I have endeavoured to make a suggestion as to the amount of revenue we have probably lost through adopting the system followed here. We are aided by the figures for 1917-18, In that period the total value of merchandise entered for consumption in Australia was £59,S96,190, on which £9,633,507 was collected as duty, or 16.0S per cent. Taking 16 per cent, as a fair average basis on th© figures for 19i8-19 - I saw a calculation the other day based on the average of 50 per cent., but 1 do not think there is any justification for such an estimate- I have prepared the following table: - In the case of Japan, the same thing happened. The 'Customs basis of imports was £8,000,000, and we probably paid about £10,000,000 for them. The duty collected was £1,280,000 instead of £1,600,000, which ought to have been collected, so that we lost revenue to the extent of £320,000. In the case of Italy, the position is reversed. The Customs basis of imports was £508,100, whereas we probably paid for them only £290,000. The duty collected was £93,000, whereas it should have been £46,500, so that in that case we gained revenue to the extent of £46,500. Coming to the position in regard to France, we find that the Customs basis of imports was £1,600,000 and that we should have paid about £1,000,000. The duty collected was £256,000, whereas it should have been only £160,000, so that in this instance also we had a gain of revenue which amounted to £96,000. The totals of these figures show that in the case of America and Japan we suffered a loss of revenue amounting to £1,280,000. If we had collected the duties on the basis of what the people in this country had paid for the goods, and in accordance with the rates that Parliament had authorized, we should have received an additional £1,280,000 by way of Customs revenue. Against that we gained £142,500 in respect of duties collected on imports from Italy and France, so that the net loss of revenue amounted to £1,137,500. I do not suggest that these figures can he absolutely accurate, but I urge that they are on a fair basis. I have only taken the same rates of duties upon imports that are shown in the official figures for the preceding year, while the rates of exchange are open to all to see. I have taken what I think is the fair average rate, and the figures probably represent very closely the actual loss that Australia experienced. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Does the honorable member place the same value on goods coming from several countries? {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- I have taken the exact figures shown in the return. I do not appreciate the point of the honorable member's question. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Our imports from the United States greatly exceed those from France and Italy. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- I have given the actual figures. The only other point to which I desire to refer relates to the basis on which duties have to be paid. Duties have to be paid, as honorable members are doubtless aware, on the home consumption value of the goods. The argument has been , used that if an article costs 50 francs in France, regard should be had only to the franc, and that the cost anywhere else is immaterial. It seems to me that there is one consideration which proves that argument to be absolutely wrong. For reasons which I shall give, we cannot consider the franc alone, and what it represents in France. For instance, a woollen article purchased in France is composed of wool .bought from Australia, and for which France has had to pay Australia in francs on the adverse basis of exchange to France. That being so, the wool costs the French manufacturers more, and when it comes here again in manufactured form surely they are entitled to be considered on the basis of what the. value of the wool is in the currency *of* the country where it was originally bought. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- Take silk, for instance. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- We might illustrate the position by referring to silk and many other materials. Whether the article has come from outside or has been manufactured entirely in France, its cost has been increased by things used in its manufacture and imported from other countries where the exchange is against France. Coal, for instance, has to be imported by France, and is one of the things in respect of which she has to pay on the adverse basis of exchange. The money that has been paid for that commodity is represented in the goods in the manufacture of which it has been used, and which are coming out of France. It is grossly unfair to say that France shall pay - as she is required to do - for the things she imports on the adverse basis of exchange, and that when those materials come out here in manufactured form we should collect Customs duty on a basis which once more tells against the French manufacturer, and practically makes it impossible for him to trade. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Australia loses both ways. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- That is so. I have endeavoured to clearly set out the position. The question is one of great importance since it is impossible for us to continue to keep up an artificial barrier which every day is preventing trade from flowing into its natural channels, and at the same time help to regularize the general exchange conditions of the world. *Extension of time granted.* {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr BRUCE: -- The exchanges can never be regularized if we are going to create these artificial barriers. We can regulate them only by allowing trade to run along its natural channels - by allowing it to go to the countries which can handle it, and giving them the opportunity to regulate their own exchanges by the exports which are coming from those countries. Having spoken to people in nearly every trade in Australia, I can tell the House with confidence that it is impossible for Australia to place orders in Italy, France, or Belgiumwhile the exchange position is as at present, and while our Customs duties are levied on the existing basis. This means the driving of more trade to America and Japan, and - ignoring every other consideration - if carried far enough will merely add to the loss of Customs revenue which is taking place to-day. We wantmore revenue; but what is still more important, we desire to make an effort to do the fair thing. I cannot conceive of the present basis being regarded as equitable. This is a matter to which the House should give its very serious consideration. The House should insist on something being done. I understand that the Minister alone has the power to take action. Section 157 of the Customs Act of 1901 provides that - >Where the genuine invoice shows the value of the goods in any currency other than British currency, the equivalent value of the goods in British currency shall be ascertained according to a fair rate of exchange to bc declared in case of doubt by the Minister. I venture to say that we are not giving to-day the equivalent value of the goods in British currency. In many cases when we start to collect our Customs duties we are giving something like double or treble the value. One other point which has been stressed and should be answered is that all these different countries have different values for goods. Because an article costs, say, so many francs in France it is suggested that that value is higher than the value of the same article somewhere else. Every day it is becoming more and more evident that the world is beginning to trade on the basis of what you can give in the equivalent exchange. A man who wishes to purchase certain goods asks whether he can buy them in. France with her exchange or in America ? Prices the world over are beginning to regulate themselves on that basis, and will be so regulated more and more as the demand for goods of which there is a shortage the world over is met, and ordinary trading .competition comes about again in individual countries among their own merchants, and internationally, between countries. This is a matter that requires very careful consideration if we are going to do the best for Australian consumers, and are to fulfil an obligation which I feel rests on us to give fair and equitable treatment to all nations; but, above all, to give such treatment to those nations which rendered us the greatest assistance during the war. {: #subdebate-8-0-s7 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am sure that the House heard with the utmost interest the speech of the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce),** and I wish that it were possible, in the short time at my disposal this afternoon, to traverse the whole case, and to put the position fully from another point of view. I cannot state the whole case, however, because, as I mentioned a little while ago, an action at law has been brought against the Department, and I cannot deal with the legal questions involved. It is an action which challenges the right of the Customs Department to 'claim duties on the basis about which the honorable member for Flinders has been talking. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Not the Adelaide case? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No ; a case brought in Queensland. It challenges the whole basis of our collection, and particularly the interpretation of section 157. The duty of the Minister is, of course, to see that the law is carried out by his officers; he has sworn to do that. The honorable member for Flinders has shown that if the Department were to adopt the practice which he asks us to adopt, it would get more revenue. We know that that is so, and it shows that in the action we are taking we are not reaching out after revenue, but are standing by principles which we think the law compels us to observe. If it were not for that, the position -would be altogether different. If, as the honorable member has suggested, it were in the power of the Minister to alter the system, and we believed that the principles by which we stand enabled it to be altered, we might move in the direction suggested. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- If the Minister could not take action himself, he could have brought the question before Parliament. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is another matter. Until the case to which I have alluded is settled, I do not think the law should be altered. We want to have the law determined, because, if the Customs Department is wrong, about £1,000,000 more of revenue will have to be collected, and the commercial community will have to pay it. If we have not collected this revenue, but should have collected it, the commercial community will be called upon to pay it. That, however, is not the question which I wish to discuss this afternoon. I believe that underlying the cases which the honorable member cited, and underlying practically all the illustrations that I have seen, there is a fundamental fallacy in the reference to £100 worth of good3, and not to the quantity of goods that £100 would buy. I think I shall be able to show that any fault rests, not with Australia,but with the countries of origin. I have given a great deal of thought to this matter, and although I am putting the other side of the argument, I do not wish it to he understood that, once the case to which I have referred is out of the way, we must necessarily stand where we are. Feeling that, however accurate my officers may be, it would be well to have an independent authority who would give us a mathematically correct reply, I put a series of questions to the Commonwealth Statistician. I said to him - >Suppose goods are made in America, France, and England at the same price- We take those three countries and say, " Your costs of manufacture are the same in each instance." - for example, £10 per unit, converting local cost at mintage rate of exchange in country of origin - That is, we consider it fair to assume as a basis for comparison that the manufacturingcostsin each country are the same, converting the local costs in francs or dollars into sterling at the mintage rate of exchange - and supposing the rates of duty in Australia ore : - British, 30 per cent; foreign, 40 per cent. : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many units would £1,000 land duty paid in Australia, not reckoning freight; duty being calculated at- {: type="a" start="a"} 0. mintage par rate of exchange; 1. commercial rate, reckoning 50 francs to the £1 sterling, and 3.50 dollars. At that time, the rate had risen to 3.50 dollars. Conversion into sterling of bill as in (6). Show cost per unit to importers in both instances for each country. I also said - >Supposing France and America had to buy their raw material outside their respective countries at the rates of exchange mentioned in (b)- > >That is, the commercial rate - and the value of the raw material in France or America represented 30 per cent. of the value of the finished product, as expressed in the home consumption value- > >That is, of course, in francs or dollars, as the case may be, in the country of origin - what effect would that have upon(a) and (b) above ? > >The honorable member for Flinders will admit that those are questions that we have to consider in dealing with a problem of this nature. The answers I received are summarized in the following statement, which shows the number of dutypaid £10 units purchasable by an Australian importer for £1,000, and the cost per unit, calculated on the data proposed in my questions : - That statement shows most unmistakably that countries with a depreciated rate of exchange can, if they so will, land in other countries far more goods for the same money than can a country with the sterling rate of exchange at par; and the honorable member for Flinders', in his concluding remarks, certainly seems to me to bear that out. But what I am satisfied is happening in countries with a depreciated exchange is that, as the exchange depreciates, manufacturers raise the home-consumption, price ; all the time as the franc depreciates, the French manufacturer is raising his homeconsumption price ; and as. the honorable member says, that is the basis on which we are calculating th« duty. The peculiar position of the markets outside in the world to-day is such that the manufacturer finds that he can still ask the outside price that other countries are asking. I ask the "honorable member which- policy will' sooner right the exchange - a policy of continually raising the home-consumption price, and keeping the French and Italian goods at the world's level, or taking advantage, as it were, of the depreciated exchange to send goods out at the depreciated rate of exchange. *Extension of time granted.* {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The point I wish tosubmit for the consideration of the House, is that as the world's supplies become nearer normal, countries with a depreciated exchange will be unable to get as ready a market for their goods as at the present time. Will they not take advantage of the depreciated rate of exchange to dump their goods wherever they like? I have shown clearly that what we are doing does not interfere with either the protective policy of the country or the preferential rate for Great Britain. I do not say they are doing it to-day, but those countries may take advantage of the depreciated rate of exchange to absolutely destroy not only the protective policy of this country, but also our preferential trade with Britain. France and those other countries find throughout the world a ready market for their goods at the prices they are charging to-day; and I venture to say the French manufacturers, by raising the home consumption prices to the extent of the depreciation of the foreign exchanges, are making fortunes, or ought to be. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- You take the £10 unit, and say it costs exactly the same amount to produce the article; then you say, " Now there is a chance for the French to keep on gradually increasing the homeconsumption price,, and to make fortunes." That is not so. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No. I said, that, presuming the cost is the same in both countries, the country with the depreciated rate of exchange, notwithstanding the cost- in that country, can dump goods in foreign countries. After all. is said and done, the purchase of the bill of exchange is not a transaction directly between the- buyer and. seller of the goods. The purchase of the bill of exchange is a transaction which takes place between the seller pf the goods and a third party; indeed, it is not even, between the seller and the third party. 1 What happens is that the maker *or* manufacturer takes this billof exchange to his banker and gets the full face value, whatever it may be, in. the currency of the country. The banker then proceeds to sell the bill of exchange to somebody else, to whom the purchaser finally pays the money. But does the fact of a third party intervening in a totally different transaction really affect the question I am arguing ? I do not think so. I have here a very interesting calculation, showing exactly how the duties work out as between the various countries, but I do not wish to impose on the good nature of the House by reading it this afternoon. I hope to be able, a little later on, to put it in the possession of honorable members; and in the meantime I suggest that whatever we do at the present time it is most inadvisable, until the law is finally settled, and we know exactly where we are, to interfere or deal with this question at all. Whenever the question is dealt with, it must be in such a way that there will be no doubt whatever as to the maintenance of the protective principles of our Tariff and our preferential position with Great Britain. These must be secure, whatever any country with a depreciated exchange may finally determine to do when it finds itself in the position, as it will be some day or other, to dump goods on the rest of the world. {: #subdebate-8-0-s8 .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong -- The question brought up by the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce)** is very complicated, and one in regard to which the Customs Department has a grave responsibility. This is particularly so, in view of the fact mentioned by the honorable member, that the practice of the Department hara resulted in giving a preference to America and Japan which was never intended by this House or the Tariff. That view, like many others, in regard to this question, is open to challenge. There is one point in regard to which I completely differ -from the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene).** The honorable gentleman pointed out that the law is doubtful as it at present exists, and that, consequently, a case has been brought for the purpose of ascertaining what is the proper interpretation. No legislation introduced here should be of a retrospective character, but it is quite possible to remedy difficulties we have discovered, without prejudice to the pending case, and it is clearly the duty of the Government to introduce a measure at once, so that in the future operations shall be on the basis that this House intended. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Would you do that when a case is *sub judice?* {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I do not propose to interfere with any case at present pending., which case will be decided according to the law in force at the time the action was instituted. But there are reasonable doubts as to what the law is; and we have a right to see that what Parliament intended is in the future carried out by clear enactment, with a view to doing justice all round. I impress that view on the Minister for Trade and Customs, because it is important. There are two sides to this question, and no matter from which side it is approached there is going to be considerable complaint, and, possibly, some injustice. I emphasize again that the operation of the Tariff should not give a preference to America and Japan, and if it does, it should be at once stopped. Even from a revenue stand-point, if a substantial preference in trade to the extent, roughly estimated, of £1,137,000, is given to those countries, it is very serious., and tha more so when it is against British and local goods; we cannot afford to overlook this, or wait for an indefinite period for a remedy. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think I can show you that that is not the case, though it ma< apparently be so. " {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I am ' only stating what is said to be the actual operation as I see it. This may continue for a considerable time to come, and a. distinct line should be drawn. We should not attempt to alter the law so as .to interfere with the rights which existed on the part -of the subject when the case was instituted. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No one has suggested that that should be done. **"Sir ROBERT** BEST.- It could be done by Act of Parliament. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No one has suggested it. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I should hope not. However, I am greatly concerned for the future. The responsibility is cast on the House and the Minister to see that our protective policy, as defined by Parliament and embodied in the Tariff, is carried out. We have to see that our industries are not permitted to suffer, but shall have the percentage of protection which Parliament decided. We are interested also in seeing that the British manufacturer shall have the preference Parliament gave him. These are fundamental features, and for anything that tends to the contrary at present we must find an immediate remedy. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Does the honorable member not think that duty is charged on the exchange as well as on the goods *1* {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- I speak subject to correction, but I think the practice of the Department is to take the sterling value, say the price paid by a British purchaser of goods in Prance. These goods are brought here, and the first calculation is as to the commercial exchange value of, say, £50 paid for goods. It is ascertained that there are 50 francs to the £1; fifty times fifty is first calculated. That is then divided by the mintage par value, and upon the value thus ascertained duty is charged. I shall give an illustration of how the operation of this system contended for by the importer proves serious:' An Englishman goes to France and purchases £50 worth of goods. He gets goods equivalent to the commercial exchange value of £50 sterling in France: the goods are sent to Australia and duty is paid upon them. Then he goe3 to England and buys another £50 worth of goods. There he gets only sterling value, but the total amount of duty paid on those goods is precisely the same as the total amount of duty paid on the greater quantity of goods which he purchased in France. The effect is that he gets double the quantity of goods from France that he can purchase in Great Britain for the sane amount of money. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- He does not get double the quantity of goods. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- Practically he does. When the French and British goods arrive in Australia they are probably assessed at the same market value. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- In France the purchaser will get only about the same quantity of goods for his £50 as he will get in England. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- Whilst I defer to the honorable member's commercial knowledge I am informed by the representatives of British manufacturers that in certain lines the purchaser will get for £50 in France practically double the quantity of goods he can purchase in Great Britain for that amount of money. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is true in regard to those articles of which France has a big surplus, and it will be true of all goods when France is producing sufficient of them. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- Of course, I am putting the case in reference to certain goods. I do not suggest that the argument applies to all lines of goods. The effect of this system is to practically reduce by half the protective duty which Parliament has imposed, and to destroy the preference which Parliament intended to be given to the British manufacturer. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- A man can buy in France . and sell to his agent in London without any trouble at all, and then the goods are shipped to Australia as of British origin. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- There is no doubt that that is taking place, and the British Board of Trade has in certain circumstances endeavoured to protect the country against such practices by the institution of a licence fee on all importations from countries which have a depreciated exchange. We all have the utmost sympathy for France, Belgium and Italy. It may be that we are showing our feelings in a strange way, but, after all, this matter must be looked at from a purely business stand-point. France itself has prohibited the importation of all goods which are calculated to injure in any way its own manufactures. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The list of prohibitions is very large and comprehensive. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- That is so, and, therefore, I say that this matter must be dealt with solely as a matter of business. On the other hand, we cannot escape the argument put forward by the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr.** Bruce) in regard to the preference which is unintentionally and unreasonably being given to America and Japan. It is the urgent duty of the Government to correct this state of affairs, as far as it exists and can be corrected by legislation, in order to protect our industries, and to give that preference to the Mother Country which Parliament intended. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- But we must be quite sure of the facts before we act. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- These facts are rather obvious. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think it can be shown that the position is different from what the honorable member has represented, when regard is had to the rates of exchange, adverse in the case of some countries and favorable in the case of others. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- It is the duty of the Government to introduce legislation upon the subject now, because we are doing injustice all round, and the will of Parliament is not being carried out. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- If a man buys £100 worth of goods in the United States of America; and the rate of exchange is 22 per cent., does not he pay duty on £122 % {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- No; the mintage par value is ascertained, and duty is paid on approximately only £S0. In the circumstances, there is ground for the complaint made by the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce),** and for further complaint on the part of local and British manufacturers. This unsatisfactory state of affairs should be immediately remedied by legislation. {: #subdebate-8-0-s9 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- I wish to put before the House a phase of the question which has been brought under my notice by certain manufacturers. They complain that if they purchase silk in France for the manufacture of ties they have to pay an excess rate of duty owing to adverse exchange; but when the same silk is sent to England the British manufacturers are able to export the finished tie at a price practically as low as the Australian manufacturer is paying for the silk. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- The British importer could export the silk before it was made up. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Yes; provided the silk had been imported into England. I know the difficulties which confront the Customs Department, and I would be loath to do anything that would place the Department in a false position. But we must act fairly. These manufacturers recently sent the following cable to London: - >We are urgently in need of 1471, one thousand yards. DoesGreat Britain impose tax or any impost whatever on any French, Italian silk entering England? Reply immediately. The reply was - >Referring to your cable of the 3rd instant, silk enters England free. I have another letter from a firm interested in the importation of motor cars, in regardto the Customs method of assessing foreign invoices in the case of a car costing £300 in each of three countries - England, America, and Italy. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is its sterling value. The equivalent of £300 in Italy is £804. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I have all that information here. We are losing revenue through giving America the advantage of estimating the exchange at 3.85 dollars to the £1. I am reminded, in passing, that the French manufacturer buys Australian wool, and pays for it, not at the rate of 25 francs to the £1, but at' 50 francs to the £1. When the manufactured article is returned to Australia, however, and the value is reconverted at current rates of exchange, it has to pay an extra heavy duty. Reverting to motor cars, if a machine worth £300 sterling were imported from England, and the duty were assessed at 10 per cent. on the value in the country of origin, the duty would be £33; on the car from America the duty,at 20 per cent., would be £66 ; and on the car from Italy, at 20 per cent., £66. But assessed at the conversion rate the duty payable on the English car is £33; on the American car, £52 5s. 8d.; and on the Italian car, £204 0s.10d. America gets an advantage of £13 14s. 4d., or 21 per cent., whilst Italy is disadvantaged to the extent of £138 0s. 10d., or 209 per cent. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The whole trouble is that the honorable member is dealing with three entirely different cars. If exchange were normal, those cars would be sold at three different prices. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I think I may claim to know as much about motor cars as does the Minister. When I was in charge of the Department I had the pleasure of sending one importer to gaol, and I am sorry I was not able to take the same course with others. But I have always found the gentleman who supplied me with this information straightforward. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not impugning the accuracy of the statement.; but when the honorable member talks about a £300 car bought in three different countries, one with exchange at par, the other with an adverse exchange, and the third with a favorable exchange, he is endeavouring to make an impossible comparison. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -I would not do anything to make an enemy of America. Tie fact that the same ocean washes the shores of Australia and the United States of America compels us to cultivate friendly relationship with the American people. If we were to assess duty on imports from America at an exchange rateof 4.80 dollars to the £1, instead of 3.86 dollars, we would get a lot more revenue. But by the present system we are deprivingGreat Britain of the 10 per cent. preference which Parliament intended to give. I realize that the discussion that has taken place this afternoon will not carry us much further forward. The honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce)** was certainly quite justified in raising the question, since it affects our business dealings in regard not only to silks and woollens, but motor cars and many other imports. For instance, monumental masons insist upon using Carrara marble from Italy. It is a clear, white marble, the like of which is practically unobtainable elsewhere; and if it were first shipped to England and brought here as coming from England, the English agents would reap an advantage which ought to go to the persons working it up in this country. There are many phases of this question which have not been raised, but we have to take care that we do not inflict an injustice- {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- Does not the honorable member think that adefinite decision, whatever it may be, should be given at once? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I do not think that the pending law-suit will carry us much further forward, since it will merely determine what is the law on the subject, and the law on the subject may not give justiceto the whole of the people concerned. {: #subdebate-8-0-s10 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- This question has now been under consideration of the Minister for some time, and the mere fact that litigation in regard to the legality of the action of the Department is pending should not operate as an excuse for further delay in coming to a decision. If our taxation in respect of imports from certain countries tells against those countries as compared with others, then I believe the Minister should, at the earliest possible moment, bring down remedial legislation. When the French Mission visited Australia a little while back, they were met by the representative people of the Commonwealth, and the promise was made that we would do everything within our means to build up trade relations with the French, who had fought so nobly with us. The Customs Department, however, is being administered, so far as this matter is concerned, in a way that does not carry out the promises that were then made. We should provide for fair trade with France, Italy, and Belgium; but I find that we are giving a most decided preference to Japan and the United States. I have here a list - taken out in June last, and allowing for the exchange rates prevailing at that period - which shows that, assuming that the duty payable on certain goods coming from France, Italy, the United States and Japan, was 50 per cent., the duty actually payable on goods imported from France, owing to the exchange being so much against that country, would be 138 per cent. In the case of goods coining from Italy, it would be 167 per cent. ; only 39 per cent. in. respect of goods coming from the United States of America, and 40 per cent. in the case of Japanese goods. I am satisfied that it was not the intention of this Parliament that such an advantage should be given to the United States of America and Japan, as against Italy, Belgium, and France. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member's figures are on the assumption that in each case we get the same quantity of goods for£100. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Let us assume that a citizen of the Commonwealth desires to purchase an Italian motor car at a cost of £200. He sends his £200 to Italy, and that in Italian exchange would be 17,000 lire.His bank would exchange that £200 for 17,000 lire, and when his car reached Australia the Minister, according to the presentpractice, would say to him, " This car cost you not £200; but 17,000 lire, or, on the basis of par mint values, approximately, £670, and we will charge duty on that amount. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- What would be the cost in England of a similar car of English manufacture? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I assume that it would bpsomething like £200. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is where the honorable member is in error. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- When the Minister decided to collect duty, not on the £200 paid for the Italian car, but on the 17,000 lire, would he accept payment in lire? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The duty has to be paid in the currencyof the country in which it is payable. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The whole system, to my mind, is fictitious. I am convinced that honorable members will not be content to allow imports from countries which fought with us throughout the war to labour underthis disadvantage. I have not one word to say against the United States of America or Japan. If the preference were small, the position would be different, but the figures given this afternoon by the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce)** also show that we are suffering an enormous loss by way of Customs revenue, and I fail to see why any advantage should be given to the United States of America and Japan, as against France, Italy, and Belgium. I hope that there will be no further delay on the part of the Minister in dealing with this question. Over two months have elapsed since he promised to attend to it, and to come to a definite decision. If the honorable gentleman desires to continue this system of collecting duties, then the sooner the whole question is brought before the House in a way that will enable us to come to a determination the better for all concerned. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- The Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** promised on the 20th May last that the matter would be dealt with. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- We have had several promises. Any legislation that might be brought in to meet the difficulty would not be retrospective. No one would expect anything of the kind, and any proceedings that have Deen instituted against the Department will be dealt with on the basis of the law as it stands. That being so, if the Minister says he is satisfied with the present method, I think the House should take action to show its disapproval of undue preference being given to the United States of America and Japan, as against the other countries I have mentioned. I sincerely hope that the Minister in the very near future will announce a drastic change. {: #subdebate-8-0-s11 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- We are making a mistake this afternoon in confining our attention to exceptional cases. If any concessions are granted to countries in respect of which the exchange rates are operating adversely, all sorts of demands will be made upon the Department, and many alterations in the present system will be necessary. I am not going into the merits of this case, but I certainly think the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** has made an exceptionally fair proposal. He has intimated that there is now pending in the Law Courts a case involving the determination of a question closely allied to that which has been brought before us by the, honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce),** and that being so, he ought not to bo asked to take immediate action. Ho should not be asked to come to a decision which might influence the Court. There are two sides to this case. I am always prepared to make an effort to remedy that which is unfair, but I have yet to learn of any legislation passed by this, or any other Parliament, under which an injustice has not been suffered by some person or persons in the community. We cannot legislate to meet special cases. The United States of America is a country so nearly akin to our own so far as the habits and aspirations of its people are concerned, that if any preference were to be granted, I " should give it to goods coming from that country rather than to imports from France, Italy, and Belgium, where some of the working conditions are very different from our own. Are we to expose our industries to such competition? My motto is, " Australia first, and a long way first." After we have done our best for Australia, let us do our best for other countries which, in their aspirations, their social and wages conditions, most closely approximate to our own. As showing how sonic writers view this matter, I quote the following paragraph :- - >If the method of calculating duty were altered in the way desired by the importers, one of the most serious and insidious attacks upon our Protective Tariff would be crowned with success. The Australian manufacturer would be exposed to undercutting by foreign manufacturers, and Australian development would be retarded for the benefit of the foreigner, who is concerned only with the restoration of his own trade, and is not in the least interested in the progress of Australia. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- From what is the honorable member quoting? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- From the *Australian Mining Standard,* some of the contributors to which have a grip of exchange and Customs questions equal to that of any honorable member of this House. I hope that the Minister will adhere to his present decision. A writ has been issued against the Department, and we should do nothing ' that might in any way influence the decision of the Court. The Minister has promised that when, so to speak, the clouds have rolled away, this House will have an opportunity to review the whole question, and to arrive at a decision in regard to it. {: .speaker-F4B} ##### Mr Bruce: -- May there not be a further banking up of the clouds, with the result that the system complained of will go on indefinitely? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The position is not very serious, because the figures quoted by the honorable member himself show that our imports from France and Italy are comparatively small. Unless we are prepared, as the true protectors of Australian industry, to raise our Tariff sufficiently high, America will export to Australia more largely than she has ever done. She is making her plans accordingly, and, starting off with this advantage as against Italy, France, and Belgium, she is in a better position than ever to increase her exports to this country. To-day the English-speaking races are more closely in touch than ever before in their history, and if to keep them so preference must be given against Italy, France, or Belgium, it should, in my opinion, be given. I think that the Minister has been fair. I cannot conceive of Parliament being asked to discuss a question that is to all intents and purposes before the Courts. {: #subdebate-8-0-s12 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- None of the speakers this afternoon have addressed themselves sufficiently to the situation as it concerns importations from theUnited States of America. We are told by the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce)** that we lose over £1,000,000 of revenue in connexion with these importations, and I wish to know how the Customs Department bases its charges and collections on American imports. I followed the Minister's statement regarding the £10 units, and agreed with his deductions. But suppose I bought a £500 motor car in the United States with a view to putting it on this market at a certain price, I should have to pay another £100 by way of exchange. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Rather more than that. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- About 22 per cent., I understand. I wish to know why the Department would not charge duty in respect of the importation of such a car on a valuation of £610, which is actually what I would have to pay. If I bought a £500 car in Great Britain, the sum I paid for it would represent its total cost to me, putting aside freight and similar charges; but if I imported a car of the same value from France, it would cost me only £250, while if I went to America for it, it would cost me over £600, and I ought to be called on to pay duty on that amount. If the Government is not collecting duty on the actual cost of the goods imported, and if the law will not allow it to do so, there is something wrong. In discussing this question, we are verging upon the discussion of a matter which is *sub judice;* but on this occasion, it suits the Government to allow the debate to continue; if the decision that was given in regard to the discussion of another matter, in connexion with which the name of a certain reverend gentleman was mentioned, were given effect, we could not continue the debate. I agree with the honorable member for Flinders **(Mr. Bruce)** that the people of this country are being robbed when duty is not collected on the full cost of the article imported. If duty is not charged on the cost of an article purchased from the United States of America plus exchange, the Department ought not to penalize importers from France by its exchange calculations. The present arrangement seems unjust to the people of Australia, in causing them to lose revenue; and unjust to the importers from France, Belgium, and Italy. Question resolved in the negative. {: .page-start } page 3659 {:#debate-9} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-9-0} #### COMMERCIAL AVIATION Report on Air Currents, etc. {: #subdebate-9-0-s0 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr MACKAY:
for Mr. Marks asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether, in view of the great flight to Australia of **Sir Ross** and **Sir Keith** Smith andLieutenants Parer and Macintosh, the Government will seize this opportunity of acquiring valuable data as to air currents, &c, &c, by asking those gallant airmen to make a report thereon for use by the Commonwealth when considering the question of aerial mails to the Northern Territory and countries to the northward of Australia? 1. In view of the great strides recently made in Australia in commercial aviation, will he make a statement as to what encouragement the Government are likely to give to this important branch of aviation, having in mind its important bearing on the question of defence? {: #subdebate-9-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. I am sure that those gentlemen will be readily disposed to make available the data they have secured as a contribution to the progress of Australia's aviation, in which they have been taking such a distinguished part. 1. The Government realize that the development of civil aviation has an important relation to air defence, and proposals in regard to this will shortly be submitted to Parliament. Meanwhile, the Minister for Defence is engaged in an examination of the extent to which the Commonwealth will be associated with the organization of these activities with a view to ascertaining the lines upon which action might proceed, and the field which would be left to State, municipal, or private exploitation. A further preliminary step is the assumption by the Commonwealth of the responsibility for the regulation of air traffic. With the agreement of the Premiers of the States, a Federal Bill is now being drafted for submission this session. {: .page-start } page 3659 {:#debate-10} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-10-0} #### SCRAP STEEL AND IRON {: #subdebate-10-0-s0 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: asked the Prime Min ister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In connexion with the embargo on the export of scrap steel and iron from Western Australia) what action is taken by the Government to insure that the owners of such scrap steel shall receive fair and equitable prices for the goods? 1. Is there a buyer for such goods in Western Australia at the present time? 2. If so, who is he, or what is the name of the company ? 3. If there is no buyer at equitable prices in Western Australia, will the Government remove the embargo forthwith? {: #subdebate-10-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I would invite the honorable member's attention to the statement made by the Prime Minister in the House on 20th May, 1920. If any owner of scrap iron or steel, being dissatisfied with the prices.offering by local users, forwards full particulars to the Government, the matter will receive full consideration. {: .page-start } page 3660 {:#debate-11} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-11-0} #### WOLFRAM **Mr. RILEY** (for **Mr. MCDONALD** asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >With reference to the exportation of wolfram, will the Prime Minister state whether the demands of the Metal Exchange have been satisfied in this connexion? > >Are producers of wolfram allowed to dispose of their metal to foreign countries? {: #subdebate-11-0-s0 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The honorable member, perhaps, refers to the arrangement made by the Imperial Government with the Commonwealth Government foi the acquisition of the Australian production of wolfram. The Metal Exchange had nothing to do with the arrangement, which came to an end on 31st March, 1920. 1. Yes, except to enemy and ex-enemy countries. {: .page-start } page 3660 {:#debate-12} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-12-0} #### CASE OF CADET C. G. HUCKELL {: #subdebate-12-0-s0 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
for Mr. Considine asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the lad, Clement George Huckell, who was sentenced to fourteen day* imprisonment on one charge, and seven days on another charge, for breaches of the compulsory military service sections of the Defence Act, on 26th March, 1920, and who was released from military custody upon serving fourteen days, was released upon instructions from the Minister or some subordinate official? 1. Is it a fact that this lad was re-arrested on the 13th inst. and conveyed to Fort Largs, South Australia? 2. Had the lad been called upon to return to h is former custody in accordance with the provisions of the Defence Act?1 {: #subdebate-12-0-s1 .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · DENISON, TASMANIA · NAT -- There is no information at Head-Quarters in regard to this matter. Inquiries will be made, and a reply will be furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible. {: .page-start } page 3660 {:#debate-13} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-13-0} #### REVEREND J. B. RONALD {: #subdebate-13-0-s0 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND asked the AttorneyGeneral, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has he had any communication from His Excellency the Governor-General, or from any other person, in regard to a matter concerning the Reverend J. B. Ronald? 1. If so, will he inform the House of the nature of such communication? 2. If so, is it the intention of the Minister to take any action in connexion with such communication ? 3. Does the Minister purpose doing anything whatever in the direction of. giving relief to **Mr. Ronald,** who, it is stated, has suffered an injustice, and who asks that 'Consideration be given to his claim that justice be done in his case? {: #subdebate-13-0-s1 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · NAT -- A despatch has been received from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, forwarding a petition from the Reverend J. B. Ronald, concerning the restitution of his good name, which he states he has lost as a result of various judicial proceedings in Australia. I have also received a communication from **Mr. Ronald** on the subject. The matter being purely a State one, the petition and correspondence received from **Mr. Ronald** have been referred to the Government of Victoria, which .has advised that the matter is receiving careful consideration. {: .page-start } page 3660 {:#debate-14} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-14-0} #### BARRIER POSTAL OFFICIALS {: #subdebate-14-0-s0 .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB:
for Mr. Considine asked the Postmaster-General, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether any reduction in the salaries paid to officials in charge of post-offices in the Barrier electorate is contemplated, or has it taken place within the last few weeks? 1. If so, will the Minister- state the reason for such reduction or contemplated reduction? {: #subdebate-14-0-s1 .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr WISE:
Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT -- Inquiries .are being made, and replies will he furnished as early as possible. {: .page-start } page 3660 {:#debate-15} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-15-0} #### INVENTIONS BOARD {: #subdebate-15-0-s0 .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB:
for Mr. Considine asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether there is in existence in the Commonwealth an Invention Board which deals with Australian inventions? 1. If so, .does the Board, by subsidy or other material assistance, assist impecunious inventors to develop their devices in the public interest ? {: #subdebate-15-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- A Commonwealth Board to deal generally with the question of Australian inventions does not exist, but there are Invention Boards, or " Suggestion Boards," in individual Commonwealth Departments, the operations of which are confined to inventions and ideas affecting their respective Departments. {: .page-start } page 3661 {:#debate-16} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-16-0} #### MARGARINE {: #subdebate-16-0-s0 .speaker-K7L} ##### Mr STORY:
for Mr. Higgs asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the Commonwealth Board of Trade recommend that the regulation forbidding colouring matter in margarine for export shall be withdrawn? 1. What are the intentions of the Government in regard to this matter? {: #subdebate-16-0-s1 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. It is not the intention of the Government to make any alteration at present, but the matter is under consideration. _«> {: .page-start } page 3661 {:#debate-17} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-17-0} #### SOLDIERS' DEPENDANTS Cancellation of Passages {: #subdebate-17-0-s0 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr MACKAY: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether it is a fact that a large number of passages of the dependants of soldiers have recently been cancelled by the Repatriation Commission in London ? 1. Will the Minister direct that careful inquiries should be made into all the circumstances before' this privilege is cancelled? {: #subdebate-17-0-s1 .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr POYNTON:
Minister for Home and Territories · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT -- The Commission advises as follows^ {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. Recently, however, it came under notice that in some instances dependants of soldiers who had been granted free passages to the Commonwealth, and who, when called upon after reasonable notification to embark, failed to do so without taking the necessary steps to advise the authorities of their inability to proceed, with the result that the cost of the empty berths so -caused must be borne by the Commonwealth. The Commission decided that, where the Commonwealth is called upon to meet the cost of the- passages' unavailed of under such circumstances, the benefit, as far as the persons affected were concerned, should be deemed to have been forfeited. 1. In view of answer to question No. 1, this action is not considered necessary. {: .page-start } page 3661 {:#debate-18} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-18-0} #### RAIN STIMULATION EXPERIMENTS {: #subdebate-18-0-s0 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
for Dr. Maloney asked the Minister for Works and Railways, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In view of the great expense upon an unknown subject, will the Government stop all further expenditure of money until **Mr. Balsillie's** plans are placed before the Depart ment of Science and Industry for it to decide if such plans are worthy of further experiment? 1. If by fortuitous circumstances **Mr. Balsillie** hits on any invention, will such invention be the property of the. Federal Government? {: #subdebate-18-0-s1 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
NAT -The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The suggestion made was considered by me some time ago in consultation with **Mr. Balsillie,** and approved of. It has been arranged for the Department of Science and Industry, when established, to' advise as to continuance of the experiments. 1. I have already explained that the invention was patented some time ago by **Mr. Balsillie** in most countries of the world. **Mr. Balsillie** agreed that the Government should have the use in Australia of the patent free of royalty. {: .page-start } page 3661 {:#debate-19} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-19-0} #### PUBLIC SERVICE RETIRING AGE {: #subdebate-19-0-s0 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr MACKAY:
for Mr. Jackson asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >In view of the fact that the retiring age in the Commonwealth Service is sixty-five years, and is costing certain Departments the loss of competent officials who are physically fit, will the Cabinet consider the proposal to have such officers examined by a Medical Board, with a view to their retention for yearly periods? {: #subdebate-19-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Officers retire, without exception, upon reaching the age of sixty-five years, and any departure from this rule would not be in "the interests of the efficiency of the Public Service, or of its members as a whole. {: .page-start } page 3661 {:#debate-20} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-20-0} #### RETURNED SOLDIERS Refusal of Loan {: #subdebate-20-0-s0 .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr MACKAY: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the Minister is aware that returned soldier applicants who desire to purchase or improve land of freehold tenure have been refused a loan by the Soldiers' Land Settlement Board in Queensland? 1. Will the Minister endeavour to induce the Government of Queensland to adopt a more generous policy with regard to soldier land settlers who disapprove of leasehold tenure, and who are debarred from the privileges obtainable in other States of the Commonwealth ? - {: #subdebate-20-0-s1 .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr POYNTON:
NAT -- I have no definite information on this point, but will communicate with the Queensland Government in reference thereto. {: .page-start } page 3662 {:#debate-21} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-21-0} #### AUSTRALIAN NOTES {: #subdebate-21-0-s0 .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Treasurer, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the Australian note for any amount is legal tender within the Commonwealth ? 1. If so, by what means has it become legal tender? {: #subdebate-21-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Australian notes are legal tender throughout the Commonwealth and all Territories under the control of the Commonwealth. 1. Under the provisions of section 6 of the Australian Notes Act 1910, {: .page-start } page 3662 {:#debate-22} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-22-0} #### NORTHERN TERRITORY ADMINISTRATION Cattle Supplied to **Mrs.** PERREAU {: #subdebate-22-0-s0 .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB:
for Mr. Brennan asked the Minister for Home and Territories, *upon notice -* >Will ho make available for perusal the file of departmental papers which includes the contract and other documents relating to the supply of cattle by the resent Administrator of the Northern Territory to one **Mrs. Perreau,** which contract was referred to before **Mr. Justice** Ewing on the Northern Territory Commission?' {: #subdebate-22-0-s1 .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr POYNTON:
NAT -- As legal proceedings in this matter are pending, and the papers are with the Crown Solicitor, it is not possible at this stage to comply with the honorable member's wishes. {: .page-start } page 3662 {:#debate-23} ### BUTTER AGREEMENT BILL {:#subdebate-23-0} #### Second Reading Debate resumed from 18th August *(vide* page 3620), on motion by **Mr. Greene** - >That this Bill be now read a second time. {: #subdebate-23-0-s0 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I see no reason to modify anything I said last evening with regard to the Bill. So far as I can see, it is a Bill to limit the price of butter sold overseas, and not a Bill to ratify an agreement in the true sense of the word. We must, therefore, look at it from the point of view of its effect, which is that no producer will be able to send butter out of this country except through this Pool. This means that the producers will not get a price in excess of 2403. per cwt. ; and if, during the period that this agreement lasts, the world's parity for butter goes up to, say, 300s., that will represent a loss of 60s. per cwt. to the dairy people of this country. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Suppose it goes the other way. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- It is not likely to go the other way; I cannot conceive of that for a moment, seeing that the price is on the upward grade. Of course, if it does go the other way, it will work to the advantage of the primary producer; but we can say, with a great deal of certainty, that it will not. I am quite consistent in the attitude I am taking in regard to the Bill because I objected to the agreements made on behalf of the primary producer in the case of wool and wheat. I cannot understand honorable members who claim to be a Country party having so little to say against transactions of this kind. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- This is not a sale by the Government, but by the producers themselves, who ought to be anxious to ratify it. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I deny that the producers, or the men engaged in the industry, know very much about the sale. Last evening I gave the names of some people concerned, including that of **Mr. J.** W. Sandford, chairman of directors of J. W. Sandford and Company, merchandise and produce auctioneers, dairy machinery and refrigerating engineers, of Grenfell-street, Adelaide, Port Adelaide, and Mount Gambier. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Does he not own one of the biggest butter factories in South Australia? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Even if he owned all South Australia, he is the managing director of this company, the interest of which he is there to watch and advance. The honorable member for Indi **(Mr. Robert Cook)** told us a little while ago that he himself is chairman of a number of co-operative societies, and he ought to know that **Mr. Sandford** would cast him and all his cooperative concerns into the Murray if he had his way. I venture to say that the honorable member was sent here to oppose such gentlemen as this **Mr. Sandford,** whom we now find supposedly representing the interests of the primary producers of this country but, in reality, is the representative of the middlemen. The interests of the company to which I have referred are diametrically opposed to chose of every man whose butter Wl j go into this Pool. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Does the honorable member complain that 2s. 3d. per lb. is not enough for the Australian worker to pay for hia butter? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- We are not discussing that aspect of the question. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- But that is the question. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- It is not ; we are talking about the price that the butter-makers of Australia will get overseas; and I emphasize the point that if the world's parity should exceed 240s., and go to 3003., they will be losing 60s. per cwt. - **Mr. Marr.** - If we do not ratify this agreement, will it not have the effect of at once lowering the price of butter? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I do not see that at all. However, I can only say that, notwithstanding what the honorable member for Indi says, he was sent here to oppose such men as **Mr. Sandford,** and those associated with him, as middlemen. The members of the Country party cannot support this measure without the impression being created on their constituents that they have "slipped" since last election.. The Minister for Trade and Customs has admitted that there are four middlemen on this Committee. The party to which I belong regard the middleman as the natural enemy of the primary producers, and we cannot support any agreement in which such gentlemen are interested. I wish the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** had, been here last night when I exhibited a cartoon from the *Bulletin,* showing the Country party, in the form of a toy lamb, being led along by the Prime Minister, while the Treasurer regarded them with a happy look. The cartoon somewhat flatters the Treasurer, and I think he ought to see it. One honorable member of the Country part" said that he supports the Bill because it assures a higher price for butter than the producers previously obtained. That same argument was used when the price of wool was fixed at ls. 3½d., but that was not the point then, and it is not the point now. Although that price for the wool was higher than the previous price, there w.ere producers in other parts of the world receiving three or four times as much. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- The genuine woolgrowers were all satisfied. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I challenge that statement every time. I represent as many wool-growers as does the honorable member, and I do not know any who were satisfied. Then, in regard to the agreement with the Colonial Combing and Spinning Company, even the Central Wool Committee objected to it. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- After themselves making it ! {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I am not concerned about who made the agreement; I am speaking of the general bulk of the growers, and showing that even the Central Committee objects. If the Central Committee did agree to the arrangement, it only further supports my argument that it did not represent the matured opinion of the producers of the country. If high profits were made by this company, and they are now burdensome to anybody, they ought to go to the men on the land, who had all the worry and trouble of production. **Mr.- Robert** Cook. - I understood the Prime Minister to say that 80 per cent, of the profits would go to the woolgrower. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The Prime Minister did not say any such thing; he said definitely that the profits belonged to the Government. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- I understand there is a similar arrangement to be made in reference to butter if the price goes up. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have heard it hinted that if the world's parity goes beyond 240s.; the producers will get the benefit, and I should like to know whether that is true. The fact is, that if the world's parity does go higher- {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Of course it will ! {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I agree that all the indications are in that direction, and if it does go higher it will represent so much loss to the producers if some arrangement is not made. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Has the honorable member any objection to the Australian consumer paying the export parity whenever the. export price goes up? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That has nothing to do with the matter. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will you do me the courtesy of answering the question ? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- We are dealing with the exportable surplus of our butter, and not with the industry as it concerns the consumers of Australia. I am consistent in my attitude because I have raised previously my voice against the contracts entered into by the Prime Minister for the sales of wool and wheat. The ex-Treasurer **(Mr. Watt)** went to England, to use his own words, to pick up the lost ends of the wool tangle, and my impression is that he discovered so much about the wool tangle that we shall get some interesting revelations when he returns. I venture to say that the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** does not wish to meet his excolleague, and that a little game of hideandseek will be played. The Prime Minister intends to leave for Geneva shortly, and probably he will pass the ex-Treasurer on his way out to Australia. Having known the honorable member for Balaclava **(Mr. Watt)** in both State and Federal politics, I am confident that all the cards in connexion with the sales of produce overseas are not on the table ; he has " a lot up his .sleeve," and we shall find out a great deal more in regard to those sales when he returns to Australia. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I hope the honorable member is not forgetting that the honorable member for Balaclava **(Mr. Watt)** was the man who made the last wool sale on behalf of Australia. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That was stated, but later I saw a denial of it by the Prime Minister. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I challenge the honorable member to find' any such denial by the Prime Minister. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I remind the Minister of the time when the Prime Minister stated that the last wool sale agreement h=4 been made behind his bacs, and that if he had been in Australia he would not have agreed to it. Later the Prime Minister said that he alone was responsible for the sale. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is not a denial that the wool was sold by **Mr. Watt.** {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The statement that the wool was sold by **Mr. Watt** was subsequently denied by the Prime Minister. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- There will be "something doing" when the exTreasurer returns. . {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I am convinced of that because I know him. but the evil day is to be postponed by the Prime Minister as long as possible. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Would the honorable member place an embargo on the export of the Prime Minister pending the arrival of the ex-Treasurer? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I would. I have been asked if I would deport him altogether. My answer is " Not without trial," much as I would like to see him deported. I move - That all the words after the word " now " be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words "withdrawn for the purpose of its recasting and immediate reintroduction with suitable provisions to insure that the butter producers of Australia will be guaranteed a return for their exportable surplus butter of a price which shall not be less than the world's parity for butter during the period in which such exportable surplus is disposed of." {: #subdebate-23-0-s1 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 .- The debate upon this Bill has been very instructive to me, as I think it will be to the electors when they are able to read its details. I have special knowledge of, and interest in, the dairying industry. I have been connected with if for many years, and in conjunction with the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** I represent probably between one-fourth and one-fifth of the total dairy production of Australia.. During the last few hours we have heard from Opposition members opinions in regard to further production which convince me that they know very little about the matter, and arouse a. suspicion in my mind that in regard to other questions of primary production, about which we have heard so much from honorable members opposite, their statements may show quite as big a divergence from the actual facts. Almost every speaker on the Opposition side has asked for information, and more information; but it seems to me, from the attitude those hon.orable members have adopted toward this Bill, that if their requests were granted,, they would almost be receiving information in a strange tongue, because it would be impossible of being understood by them. This Bill embodies practically the same principle as that for which honorable members opposite have been fighting during the last three weeks,, namely, the -recognition of organized bodies that are connected with industries. This Bill really means a recognition of the organized bodies which are entitled to speak for the dairying industry. During the last few weeks, while the House was considering the Industrial Peace Bill, honorable members of the Country party did not " butt in," and claim that we alone were competent to speak for the coal miners or other workers.We supported the efforts which were made by the Opposition to secure the recognition of organized interests in industry. What is the history of the agreement which the House is asked to sanction? During the war, a Federal Butter Pool was in existence. It did not meet with the general approval of primary producers, and a desire was expressed that, at the earliest possible moment, Government control of the industry should be completely relinquished. In compliance with that view, the Minister convened, in March of last year, a conference of the bodies interested in dairy production to discuss the best method of bringing that about. In order that the conference should be truly representative of the industry, the Minister gave ample notice, and according to a statement published in the *Age* in February last, in order to consider the question of new arrangements - >Invitations arebeing sent to the Commonwealth Dairy Produce Pool Committee and the representatives who were elected by the States to consider the dairy produce co-operative scheme, which was placed before them some time ago by the Minister. It is thought that these delegates, having been elected by dairymen, will be able to interpretthe views of the producers. The Minister stated last night that it was anticipated that steps would be taken in the meantime by the producers' organizations to get into touch with the representatives who are to attend the conference, so that the latter would be fully acquainted with the desires of the producers, and would be able to act with full authority. He added that the CommonwealthGovernment would not enter into any contract unless it was fully satisfied that the great body of the producers desired that it should do so, and completely approved of the terms.. I do not think any honorable member on either side of the House can object to. the principle which the Minister laid down. During the six weeks which elapsed between the convening and the holding of the conference, resolutions were carried throughout the dairying districts of Australia, of which the following- which was passed at a. meeting of. producers at Smith town, in my electorate - was typical - >That this meeting of primary producers bring before the notice of the Federal member the unsatisfactory position dairymen are placed in with regard to the disposal of their butter, and request that he will use his influence in having the prices lifted; also that no further contract be entered into with the Imperial Government at the termination of this contract unless desired by the primary producers of this State. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr Cunningham: -- Were the producers then consulted about the agreement? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- As soon as the proposition was brought forward, the primary producers' organization in New South Wales circularized every union, which practically comprised every individual dairy farmer, with a view to having the matter thoroughly considered. At the conference held in Melbourne, in March, the following resolution was arrived at - >That this Inter-State Conference be urged to request the Minister to inform the Imperial Government that the producers desire a free market; but in the event of the Imperial Government deciding to retain control of the importation and sale of dairy produce in Great Britain after the completion of the present contract, the Commonwealth Dairy Produce Pool Committee be empowered to negotiate with and sell to the Imperial Government next season's surplus butter and cheese. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Can the honorable member show where the conference asked for a Bill of this character ? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Later, I shall explain, I hope to the satisfaction of the honorable member for West Sydney, and his farmer constituents, why this Bill is. necessary. Such were the resolutions adopted by the conferences that met to discuss this matter. It was realized on every hand that the arrangement was not ideal, but that it was the best that could: be got, and ahalf-way house to an open market. The producers desired, if possible, to secure complete freedom from Government control, but they recognised that the actions of the Imperial Government could not be controlled by the Australian Government, and that if they were to take advantage of the British market, they must subscribe tothe terms fixed by the Imperial Government. Then the question of ability to carry out a contract arose, and that is reallywhat has necessitated the passage of this Bill. The Minister (Mr.Greene) has already detailed the method by which the agreement was arrived at. The Government did nothing in the matter; it was two delegates of the producers who went Home and arranged the following contract : - The Pool, with the Government approval has sold tho exportable surplus of butter from the 1st of August, 1920, until the 31st March, 1921, as under : - Price, 240s. per Cwt. for 90-grode butter, with ls. per point up or down, with 3b. per cwt. additional for unsalted butter. Payments are tor be made at the end of fourteen days after being placed in cool storage" at port of shipment or against storage warrants. Storage. - The cost of storage in Victoria to be paid by the sellers for an average of six weeks; after that to be paid by the Imperial Government. Commonwealth Grader's Certificates issued when the butter was graded to be final. The East, and South Africa. - The normal trade of the En st is to be provided for. and up to 50 tons monthly to be released for shipment to South Africa. The price asked for was 252s. per cwt., but after bargaining a compromise was arrived at, as set out in the agreement. However, it is confidently anticipated that an increase will be granted by the Ministry of Food in Great Britain. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Is that mentioned in the contract ? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- No. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Who will get that increase? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- The producers will get it. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Where did the honorable member learn that? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- A cablegram which appeared in the press a few days ago stated that it was the definite desire of the Imperial Government to give the highest possible price, in order to encourage the fullest production in every sense. We have heard a great deal about placing an embargo- upon the exportable surplus of butter, but what has always been the position ? The price of butter is high during the winter months in Australia, and keeps high until November or December, and then gradually, and sometimes suddenly, falls, owing to the fact that the later shipments from Australia come into a flushed market in Great Britain. In 1912, the highest price for Australian butter in London was reached in J anuary. It was 134s. per cwt. This was followed by a rapid decline until the middle of the year. In 1913, the price rose until it reached' 128s. in November, and then it slumped until the middle of 1914. Even in 1915, during the war period, the price reached its highest point in December, and then fell, and remained low until the middle of 1916. That is the normal position, and what we must expect, because Danish butter, which has always supplied the bulk of British requirements, will be available next year, as it was before the war. Honorable members of the Country party are opposed to placing embargoes on export, but when practically every cooperative society throughout Australia has decided to pool its butter, and accept the price offered by the Imperial Government, we think it is scarcely right for honorable members on the Labour benches to seek to take steps which would permit a proprietary concern to sell its butter outside the Pool until October or November at a big price, and then ask to be allowed to come into the Pool in January or February, when the price may be lower than 242s. per cwt. outside the Pool. There has been considerable criticism in regard to the *personnel* of the Dairy Produce Pool. We have heard talk about " middlemen," the avowed enemies of everything Australian, and everything decent and just. Mention has been made of **Mr. J.** W. Sandford, who, as well as being a large merchant, happens to be the owner of the largest butter factory in South Australia. Is it conceivable that he would be desirous of securing less for the butter of the producers he represents in South Australia than can be got from the" Imperial Government? {: #subdebate-23-0-s2 .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- It is alleged that he is interested in a distributing business in Great Britain. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- The names of the members of the Dairy Produce Pool Committee are household words throughout the dairying industry as leaders of co-operative effort among the producers. Here is the list of the members of the Committee - Victoria.- .A. W. Wilson (Acting Chairman), Manager of Gippsland and Northern Cooperative Selling Company; C. C. Lewis, Manager, Victorian Butter Factories Co-operative Company; J. Hankin, Director,Western District Factories Co-operative Company, a large dairy farmer;P. J.Holdensen, butter factory proprietor, and a large dairy farmer. New South Wales- C. J. McRae, President of the Primary Producers Union of New South Wales; W. H. Clifford, General Manager of the North Coast Co-operative Factory Company, the largest butter concern south of the equator; P. C. Basehe, a large dairy farmer and export agent in Sydney; J. Mackey, Sydney merchant, with very large co-operative connexions. Queensland. - W. Purcell, Chairman of Directors of the Downs Cheese Factories Association; T. F. Plunkett, representing the Beaudesert Co-operative Association; W. T. Harris, Toowoomba, Secretary Co-operative Factories, Queensland; A. C.Galbraith, General Manager of the Rural Industries (Queensland) Limited, controlling about 80 per cent. of the cheese output of Queensland. Tasmania. - O.G. Norton, Chairman of Directors of the North-West Dairy Association of Tasmania. South Australia. - J. W. Sandford, owner of the largest butter factory in South Australia, and a large merchant, representing a very big proportion of the producers of South Australia. Commonwealth Government. - **Mr. A.** O'Callaghan, Commonwealth Dairy Expert. Messrs. A. W. Wilson, C. J. McRae, and W. Purchell are Government nominees. The others were elected by each State at meetings of primary producers. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- Do any of those gentlemen " pull the teat" ? {: #subdebate-23-0-s3 .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Many of them have been doing so. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Has the honorable member mentioned the middlemen referred to by the Minister? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Yes. Messrs. Basche, Mackey, and Sandford are those whom the Minister regards as middlemen, but they are also dairy farmers and have large co-operative interests. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- **Mr. Holdensen** is another. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- But by no stretch ofimagination can they be regarded solely as middlemen. In any case, they are in a hopeless minority on the Committee. **Mr. Sandford** has only a onetwentyfirst say in the control of the Pool. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- But he is anxious to get the highest price for his dairying machinery. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- He represents South Australian producers with a total output of £698,000, as against £5,468,000 from New South Wales, and £4,278,000 fromVictoria. Even if **Mr. Sandford** wished to control the business, what possibility would he have of doing so ? In regard to the question of the Government's so-called *mala fides* in this matter, the argument of honorable members opposite is most absurd. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Not necessarily *mala fides;* incompetency would be the better word *to.* use. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- The Minister **(Mr. Greene)** who has brought forward the Bill is a dairy farmer and represents the biggest dairying constituency in Australia. For the last eighteen months he has done his best to secure some cooperative methods in the control of the sale and handling of butter in Australia. Is it likely that he would bring forward a Bill which might possibly occasion loss to the dairy farmers inhis electorate? Is it likely that, realizing that during the war the farmers had been scourged with whips", he would bring down a measure to scourge them, as honorable members opposite put it, with scorpions ? In connexion with the sale of primary produce in Australia, I would like to have a full explanation of the attitude of the Labour party. We have heard a good deal from honorable members opposite about the farmers getting a reasonable price for home sales. I would like to know exactly what they propose the farmer should get. Two or three weeks ago the honorable member forHunter **(Mr. Charlton)** and the honorable member for Cook **(Mr. Catts)** suggested a basis upon which prices in Australia should be fixed. Within my recollection, two Labour Governments have fixed the price of butterin Australia. Five years ago a Labour Government in New South Wales fixed the price at1s. 3d. a lb., although, over the border in Queensland, butter was selling at 2s. 6d. per lb. Subsequently, the Queensland Government commandeered all supplies in the State at 140s. per cwt. and sold some of it in New South Wales at 172s. per cwt. I did not hear of the difference of 32s. going back to theprimary producers. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- The surplus realized on Queensland butter sold in London, amounting to tens of thousands of pounds, was given to the producers. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- I was talking of the butter sold in New South Wales. That is to be the position when the world's parity is greater than the price prevailing in Australia. But what would itbe when the world's .parity was below what would be a reasonable price on the basis suggested by the Labour party? Would they still maintain that the price should be determined by the wages paid to the dairy farmers and their wives and children engaged in the industry ? If honorable members opposite are prepared to concede that point - if they are prepared to give the dairy farmers an effective protection of that character - we shall be able to join hands with them. But we require clearer and more precise evidence than is so far forthcoming that that would be their .attitude in connexion with the fixing of the prices of our primary products. In the early months of the present Parliament, when we had the sugar agreement before us, practically the whole of the influence of the Labour party was thrown into an effort to fix the price of sugar at a lower rate than was pro- posed by the Government. Although the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** has read to the House a list of representatives of country districts who are members of the Labour party, the fact cannot be overlooked that they number only six or seven in a party of twenty-six. Is it reasonable to assume that that tail would "wag the dog" when the party had to come to a decision as to whether the consuming .or the producing interests of Australia should prevail *1* {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- But every member of our party is pledged to the same policy. Here is an extract from the Labour manifesto - >We shall guarantee to the producer a return which will secure to him a price for his products that will cover the cost of production and allow a reasonable margin of profit. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Will the honorable member enlarge upon that statement in his party manifesto by informing the House as to the attitude which he and his party would adopt when the world's parity, so far as butter is concerned, was considerably less than the cost of production here? The Queensland Labour Government, I understand, has fixed the price of butter, not at 240s. per cwt. as under this contract, but at 228s. per cwt. ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Queensland has had for some time an exceptional surplus of butter. {: #subdebate-23-0-s4 .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND -- This is not an exceptional season in Queensland. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- At a time when practically every dairy farmer in Southern Queensland and Northern New South Wales was trying to secure a reasonable return for his produce to enable him to recoup his drought losses, Labour interests were sufficiently powerful to reduce the price by something like 20s. per cwt. in New South Wales. The same thing will happen again if Labour has its way, and that is why, in season and out of season, we urge that despite what is said by the Labour party, it is necessary that there should be in this House and in the country a strong body of producing representatives who will insist upon a fair deal for the primary producer. {: #subdebate-23-0-s5 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Swan .- The Bm is designed to give legislative power to an honorable agreement that has been made between the butter producers of Australia and the Imperial Government, and recognition by this Parliament seems to be necessary to insure that all butter producers in Australia shall stand up to their obligations under it. Honorable members on both sides of the House will admit that if the price obtainable under the agreement was below the current rate it would not be fair for dairy producers to disregard that agreement and to sell their butter outside at the higher price. On the other hand, if the price under this agreement was higher than the current rate subsequently procurable, producers could bring their butter under the terms of the contract and so escape the low price. The measure is necessary, therefore, to prevent certain producers of butter from " blacklegging " or "scabbing " on their fellow producers. The butter producers are to be complimented on their desire to secure by this Bill the only means for the fulfilment of an honorable agreement. Good faith is an important asset, and there should be no means of breaking faith in the carrying out of an honorable arrangement. This Bill seeks merely to control the operation of any agreement, and should, therefore, be readily dealt with. It seems to be the custom, however, for honorable members to avail themselves of opportunities, such as the introduction of a measure of this kind offers, to ventilate their various opinions. It is interesting to hear honorable members of the Labour party asserting that they have included in their platform the principle of securing to the producer the highest price that he can obtain for his produce after the Australian consumption has been met. I should like to see that principle not merely in the party platform, but actually put into practice. Why obtain the highest price only for that which is sold outside the Commonwealth? Why not give the Australian producer the price which, if he did not produce it, would have to be paid here for the imported article. There seems to be no logical reason for not doing so. I should like to know what other sections of the community in Australia have done for the butter producer to justify him giving any concession to the local consumer. Consumers in Australia are always ready to get their butter at the lowest possible price by taking advantage of a flushed market or any other circumstances that arise. Honorable members opposite desire that we should squeeze from the consumers overseas the highest price that we can obtain for our exports. What then becomes of their brotherhood of workers 1 The butter that we send Home is consumed by labourers, amongst others, there, and I do not know. why they should pay more than is paid by Australian labourers or *vice versa.* The producers of butter in Australia are ready to make concessions to the local consumers, when the latter are ready to make concessions to them: I think that honorable members of the Labour party, when they proceed to make u,p tha cost of butter production, will be rather sorry that they have placed in their platform the plank to which reference has been made. Sutter producers work seven days a week, wet ot dry, hot or cold. The cost of milch cows is increasing, and .the increasing cost of living applies to the butter producers, as well as to all other sections of the community. Many of those engaged in other industries are asking for more protection against imports-; but no protection whatever is given to the butter producers. Any policy that does not give the butter producers, and all other producers, at the very least the world's parity for their commodities will not do justice to them. {: #subdebate-23-0-s6 .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa .- I congratulate the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Prowse)** on his choice of such classical words as " blacklegs " and "scabs."' In supporting the amendment moved by the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney)** that the farmers shall obtain the world's parity for their exportable surplus of butter, I desire at the outset to refer to the statement made by the honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** that there is 'no evidence of the fraternity of labour in the proposal of the Labour party to make the labourer in England pay more than he would otherwise do for his butter. If we had any guarantee that the labourer in England would reap the benefit of any reduction no fault could be found with the honorable member's complaint. I would remind him, however, that the British working- classes derived no advantage from the fact that the price paid for Australian produce in England during the war was considerably less than that paid for the same commodities from other countries. Bread made from Australian wheat was' sold to the English labourer at the same price as that charged for bread made from wheat purchased from the United States of Amenca, Canada, and the Argentine at nearly double the price that we received. It will be the same so far as our butter is concerned. We realize that if the Australian butter producer obtained for his exportable surplus less than the world's parity, no advantage would be secured by the British labourer. The difference between the world's parity and the lower prices obtained by the - Australian producer would go, not to the consumers in the Old Country, but to the middlemen who are controlling the business and manipulating for their own nen efi t private producing organizations in Australia. When the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney)** referred to the world's parity, he was asked what would happen if the world's price for butter fell below 2s. Id. No one in his senses could conceive of such a thing happening during the next twelve months - which is the period for which the agreement is to be in force - because the herds of cattle throughout the whole world have been diminished either by drought - or by the necessities of warfare. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Would you repudiate the agreement? {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- If :an agreement has been entered into by the -primary producers, the Bill is unnecessary. In my opinion, the measure is designed to put compulsion upon men who have not signed the agreement, and were not represented at the conference which was held. What does the agreement contain ? No doubt, there is much legal phraseology, and many clauses. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There is no legal phraseology, and the agreement does not cover much more than one sheet of foolscap. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- It should have been embodied in the Bill, or copies of it should have been circulated among members at least twenty-four hours before the inauguration of this discussion. I deny that the dairy farmers have entered into this agreement. The conference that has been referred to was like other conferences of the kind that have been held, at which the primary producers have been represented by stock and station agents, country solicitors, city exporting agents, and Others who formulate the resolutions that are agreed to, and commit the primary producers, hundreds of whom know nothing of what is being done. Parliament is being asked to give legal force to an agreement which has been made simply in the interests of the big middlemen and exporting agents. It shows how the members of the Corner party represent country interests when a member of that party has declared that he will vote for the Bill, although, according to him, it costs 4s. per lb. to produce butter, and the producers are to get only 2s.1d. per lb. for it. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- They are honorable. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- They are being asked to buy their honour at too high a price in that difference of ls. l1d. per lb. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -What is the world's parity? {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- The world's parity is the price obtained on the world's markets with free exportation. I am prepared to support legislation which will facilitate the exportation of our foodstuffs to the right quarters. But in guaranteeing to supply other peoples with . foodstuffs, we should see that our own people are not required to make a sacrifice as in the past. We know what a muddle has been created by the looseness of the contracts made for the supply of other commodities. Possibly, a similar tangle will be caused by this agreement, and then the Prime Minister will tell us that had he known at the time what he knows now, it would not have occurred. In the interests of the primary producers, we should see that they get the world's parity for their butter. The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** interjected yesterday that New Zealand sells her butter at a slight premium, and some one said that it was because her butter was better than ours. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Owing to climatic conditions. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- Apparently every other part of the British Empire can get better conditions than Australia, and did so throughout the war. Argentine and American farmers were treated better than Australian farmers. This Parliament, instead of protecting the national life and sentiment of Australia, seems bent on retarding the natural progress of the country. It has been said that a reason for supporting the Bill is that the Government will advance money on the butter that is exported. I understand that it takes three months now to get a settlement. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- The Commonwealth Government is going to pay every fortnight. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Commonwealth Government does not come into the matter, and because it does not, theBillis necessary. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- This is one of the clauses of the agreement - of which an honorable member has just handed me a copy- Payment shall be made at theFood Controller's option, either against bills of lading, with interest at the rate of 6 per cent. per annum on the value of the butter from the end of the fourteenth day after it has been placed in cold store at port of shipment in Australia to the date of payment; or against store warrants, in full, or on account, at any date after the butter has been in cold store at port of shipment for fourteen days, with interest at the rate of 6 per cent. per annum on the unpaid balance of the value of the butter from the end of the fourteenth day after it has been placed in cold store at port of shipment, to the date of payment. Who will benefit by that arrangement? It has been said that the primary producer will benefit, because he will get ready money for his butter. It seems to me, however, that we are really assisting the exporter to sell his goods before he is called on to pay for them, whereas importers must pay for their goods, or at least have their bills accepted by the banks, before they can take delivery of them. The measure is for the benefit of the middlemen, and the Country party is once more closely allied with the Nationalists to serve the middlemen's interests instead of the producers, which is what has taken place in connexion with every piece of legislation that has come before us. {: #subdebate-23-0-s7 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
Robertson .- The closing remarks of the honorable member for Werriwa **(Mr. Lazzarini)** {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Leave him to us! {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- I am quite prepared to leave the honorable member to the members of the Country party in matters which concern them, but his remarks had a much wider reference. His closing words seemed to me just as contrary to fact as it was possible to make them. The whole basis of the measure is that the farmers have come together and made an agreement which leaves them some control, for once in a way, over their own products. They having decided that it is time they got something like a fair return for their labour. The result is great consternation in the ranks of the Opposition, because they think that the consumer may suffer. But the primary producers have suffered quite long enough; and even if the consumer does pay a little more, what does that matter so long as the return goes into the pockets of those who earned it ? That is what we are here to secure. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- What did you say at Mudgee ? {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- I told the people at Mudgee just what I am saying here. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That was not what WAS in the newspaper report. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- I do not know what was in the newspapers ; but I have always held that it was time that the primary producers were given a voice in the disposal of their produce. Now, when for the first time something definite is sought to be done in this direction, we find all sorts of charges hurled against men who have banded themselves together in order to get fair play. In dealing with the dairy farmer we have to consider not only his WA wes. hut also a return for the whole of his family. Unlike the worker in the city, who does his daily work and takes his wages home at the week end to his family, every single soul on the dairy farm does his or her share. The men, women, and children all help in produc tion; and in assessing values the work of every one has to be considered. The dairy farmers have now got together, and through their organization have asked the Government to give them some recognition. But when that is proposed there is a howl of protest from the Opposition. We are told by honorable members opposite that they are quite prepared to allow the farmers a fair return for their exportable surplus. They are quite prepared to let the farmers get higher and higher prices; but are they prepared to permit the same in relation to the dairy produce sold in Australia? It is no use talking of encouraging production for overseas markets if we deprive the producers of their home market. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Which is three-fourths of their trade. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- Undoubtedly. We have had the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** giving us a list of his colleagues who represent primary producers, though he is the man above all others who has depressed the price of primary products in Australia. He claims that his party is ready to do something in the interests of the primary producers; but there are men of my acquaintance who have been driven out of Queensland because of the impositions placed upon them by the honorable member for West Sydney when he was Premier of that State. In face of facts like these, the honorable member tells us that he is prepared to champion the cause of the primary producers. He finds fault with the Bill, which represents an arrangement between the producers themselves and the Imperial Government, under which the producers will have some chance of controlling their own affairs, and not only getting a better price now, but being assured of a price for twelve months ahead. This latter is quite a new advantage to the farmer, who has always been dependent on the seasons and fluctuating prices; never, from year to year, or month to month, could he be sure of a price; but now there is an agreement under which he has the advantages I have indicated. This Bill will give an impetus to dairyfarming and production such as never before existed, and the primary producers will feel convinced that the National party really has their interests at heart as much as any men whom they could possibly send to this Parliament. I am extremely glad that this Bill has been introduced. The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** represents one of the largest, if. not the largest butterproducing district in Australia, and he has come into line with the aspirations of this branch of industry, which at last is to be insured a decent return for labour expended. {: #subdebate-23-0-s8 .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE:
Calare .- -I must congratulate the honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** on the speech he made this afternoon.. As an attempt at humour, it was certainly excellent, so excellent, indeed, that the honorable member stands as a worthy rival of Mark Twain. It must be , said, however, that his remarks were not quite so enlightening as they were amusing. The honorable member said that, after listening to honorable members on this side, he was satisfied that we did not possess a knowledge of the needs and requirements of the primary producer; but, observing his smile, we knew that he did not mean one word of what he said. Every one recognises that if there is one party standing for the primary producer in this, or any other country, it is the Australian Labour party. We, on this side, are opposed to the principle of the Bill because we say now, as we have said for years, that it is time the producer had a fair deal so far as the sale of his produce is concerned. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr Cunningham: -- Is the honorable member for Cowper a primary producer? {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE: -- I believe he is. It ig now time we got back to normal conditions and the primary producers were given a fair chance and not restricted in any way as to where they shall sell their produce. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- How does this Bill re strict them? {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE: -- If the honorable member does not understand how, I am not responsible. The Labour party contend that the producers should have a free choice so far as oversea or any other markets are concerned. The members of the Country party during the elections declared they were coming here to preserve the interests of the primary pro,ducers, but I am sorry to say they have not done so. It is pleasing, however, to know that the scales, have fallen from the eyes of the electors-, who realize more fully every day that there is one, and only one,, party to look after their interests, and that ig the Labour party. How can any one maintain that this Bill conserves the interests1 of the primary producers when it is realized that during the last four years they have been robbed of, approximately, £400,000,000 of the value of their produce in oversea sales? I notice that the " cabbage soldier," the honorable member for Robertson **(Mr. Fleming.)** laughs, but it is no laughing matter for the producers, not two per cent, of whom wish to see legislation of this nature. It is said, particularly by those who claim to represent the producers, that this Bill is introduced at the desire of the producers themselves - as a recognition of the organization of the farmers. But so far as I .can see, those honorable members cannot tell the House what organization does, represent the primary producers. Some tell us that the producers are represented by the Farmers and Settlers Association, while others say that they are represented by the Primary Producers Union; but it was stated very clearly by the honorable member for Werriwa. **(Mr. Lazzarini)** that the so-called primary producers' unions and associations in New South Wales and every other State are dominated and run by middlemen, stock and station agents, bank managers, and others who are the producers' natural enemies. The farmers and other primary producers were duped and deluded into sending members here who, they thought, would represent them, but who, as events prove, do not represent them at all. Those members, on the contrary, stand loyally by the middlemen, and just as loyally by the occupants of the Treasury benches, who are the recognised friends of middlemen. If a contract has been made for the sale of this butter, why is it necessary to pass the Bill? No explanation has been given why the producers' market should be restricted, and the fact must be emphasized that no restriction whatever should be placed on the disposal of their produce. It has been said that those engaged in dairy-farming work exceptionally long hours, and a harrowing picture was painted by the honorable member for Robertson **(Mr. Fleming)** of the heavy labour and privations suffered by the dairy farmer and his wife and children. It is true that all producers on the land work long hours, whether engaged in general farming, dairying, or any other branch of agricultural work, and I admit that the wife and children of the dairy farmer work hard; but that is only an additional reason why they should receive the greatest possible reward for their produce. I oppose the Bill because it restricts the. field of operations in the sale of produce, because it is unnecessary, and because the general farmer does not believe in it. He realizes that during the last three years, in the overseas trade, he has not been fairly treated by the Government and other so-called representatives of the primary producers. Representing, as I do, every section of the worker, whether dairy farmer, wheat farmer, or general manual worker, I am opposed, to the measure, and intend to vote against it. {: #subdebate-23-0-s9 .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART:
Wimmera .- Some of the remarks made by members of the Opposition call for a reply. They have compared the butter agreement to other sales of primary produce during the war. There is an immense difference between the two classes of transactions, as I shall show by a detailed, comparison. In the sale of the Australian wheat crop the growers were not consulted, particularly in the earlier part of the war. The original Wheat Board consisted of tho Ministers of Agriculture for the four wheat-producing States with the Prime Minister as chairman. In addition there was an Advisory Board, comprising the well known agents and shipping firms of Darling and Co., Bell and Co., Dreyfus and Co., and Dalgety and Co. Those two bodies negotiated with the Imperial Government and made the contracts for the sale of the wheat; the rank and file had no say in the matter. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- They asked for representation and the 'Commonwealth' refused it. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- That is so. This butter transaction is on a different footing. The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. 'Greene)** endeavoured to organize the dairying industry on a co-operative basis, and he put before the organized dairymen what I regarded as a very good proposal. As, however, the scheme emanated -from the Government, the dairymen were suspicious., and rejected it. The- Minister -then said, "Very well, if you wish to conduct the business in your own way, do so." Representatives of the industry assembled and appointed two of their number to- go to England to negotiate the sale to the Imperial Government. With a perfectly free hand they made the agreement, copies -of which are .available, and the Government are now asked to give legislative indorsement to it. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Does the honorable member say that the Bill will ratify the agreement ? {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- I do not say that it ratifies the agreement; the honorable member can read for himself what the Bill does. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- At any rate it enables the Dairy Produce Pool to give legal effect to the agreement. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- Honorable members have asked why, if the dairymen have accepted the agreement, the Commonwealth Government, should be asked to give legal effect to it. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- What legal effect the agreement has exists in itself. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- I shall not attempt to argue a question of law with the honorable member. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Why is it necessary to give the Minister for Trade and Customs power to prohibit the export of butter? {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- I shall come to that point. I believe the honorable member stated that some middlemen attended the conference which accepted the agreement. That is perfectly true. Four middlemen were delegates. Another honorable member said he was fairly certain that the conference was not unanimously in favour of the acceptance of the agreement. That also is true, but the delegates who were suspicious of the agreement were the middlemen : they were the men who were not favorable to the acceptance of it. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The Minister said the opposite was the case. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- Then, perhaps, I have been misinformed. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think the honorable member is mixing up two things, as I shall show later. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- When honorable members ask why this Bill is necessary I refer them to something that happened in connexion with the Australian Dried Fruits Association. The Association released for consumption in Australia a large quantity of dried fruits at prices less than could be obtained overseas. Middlemen and other speculators purchased as much as they could of this fruit, even going so far as to buy retail in small parcels, stored it up, shipped it overseas, and reaped a big profit. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Honorable members opposite are advocating a lower price for butter in Australia. That would play into the hands of middlemen in the way the honorable member has indicated in connexion with dried fruits; the middlemen would reap a profit to the detriment of the primary producer. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- Exactly. Honorable members opposite have prophesied that the butter market overseas will rise. I admit frankly that the market may rise, and that the dairymen may then regret having made this agreement; but I still support the agreement, because the dairymen, having made the bargain, have asked us to give it legislative sanction. If, later, they regret the bargain, they will have only themselves to blame. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That will not satisfy the dairyman, who does not know anything about the agreement. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- The dairyman who knows nothing about the agreement is not a co-operator. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There is no factory throughout Australia that was not asked to send representatives to the State Conference or the Central Conference. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- The whole point is that the representatives of the dairymen have asked for the assistance of Parliament in carrying out the agreement they have made. They wish to prohibit the export of butter within certain limits, because, if the price overseas does increase, the butter that should go into local consumption will he purchased by middlemen and sent overseas. In other words, there are amongst the primary producers certain men whom honorable members opposite would call " scabs " on their organization, and who will .stick to this agreement so long as it is the more profitable arrangement, but immediately they think it more' profitable to abandon the agreement and " scab " on the rest of their fellow producers, they will do so. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The people whom we call " scabs " work for lower wages; those whom the honorable member calls " scabs " are those who will ask for higher prices. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- The honorable member has answered his own argument. In listening to the speeches from all sides of the House in championship of the cause of the primary producers, one cannot help wondering at the significant interest which is being displayed in the producers since they started to organize. A member of the Opposition remarked that the farmer was the backbone of the country. Labour Members. - Hear, hear! {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- I have heard it said that the farmer is the " wishbone " of the country, and that members of the Labour party are holding one end, and members of the Ministerial party the other, and both are tugging vigorously to get the bigger half. {: #subdebate-23-0-s10 .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB:
Angas .- I had some doubt as to the attitude I should adopt in regard to this Bill, but some remarks which have been made this afternoon have decided me as to my duty in the interests of the primary producers - not the men who own the butter factories, but those who do the actual hard work of dairy farming. One thing which has influenced me in coming to a decision is the remark made by the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene),** to the effect that **Mr. Sandford,** of Adelaide, was quite in favour of this agreement. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I said that it was to the interest of **Mr. Sandford** and those associated with him to get the biggest price possible for butter. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- The Minister said that **Mr. Sandford** .was in favour of this scheme. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Pardon me, -I said nothing of the sort, and the honorable member must accept my denial. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I can believe my own ears. Then the honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** quoted **Mr. Sandford** as the representative of many of the primary producers of South Australia. A3 a South Australian I do not believe that 5 per cent, of the primary producers of that State will agree that Sandford and Company have proved themselves the friends of the farmers. Writers on poultry, whilst not daring to mention the name of the firm, make it clear that the firm of Sandford and Company has held the egg market in its grip for many years to the detriment of the poultry raisers. While the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney)** was speaking the honorable men/bar for Indi **(Mr. Robert Cook)** continually asked him whether he did not know that **Mr. Sandford** owned a butter factory. It is true that he owns one of the biggest factories in South Australia, and also that he manufactures one of the best brands of butter made in that State, but that does not constitute him a friend of the primary producer. Even members of the Country party will not contend" that agents for the sale of necessary machinery for the manufacture of butter are as a rule friends of the primary producer. **Mr. Sandford** is the only man mentioned in the list which has been referred to of whom I know anything, and I am absolutely positive that he cannot be regarded as a fair representative of the man who looks after the cows m the State I come from. If I had found on the list the names of men whom I could mention settled on the Murray reclaimed swamps at Eudunda, Kapunda, Woodside, and the outlying districts around Two Wells, Mallala, Gawler, and such places, I should have some faith in the agreement as representing the views of the primary producers, but, to tell me that **Mr. Sandford** is satisfied with the agreement is sufficient to warrant me in refusing to support it. I have been concerned in my mind about the matter, because outside the south-eastern district of South Australia, the electorate I represent, is one Of the principal butter producing districts in that State. Honorable members have spoken of the long hours worked by those engaged in the dairying industry. I know all about that. There are no men in the country more deserving of help and encouragement than are the market gardeners and dairymen. No men do more work for the return they get, and we should do all that we possibly can for them. I am anxious that we should do the best that can be done for the dairymen of Australia. The object of the amendment is to insure to the primary producers of Australia that their products sold overseas shall be sold at the world's parity. I agree with that, and I believe that honorable members of the Country party also agree with it. I do not accuse members of that party of being in favour of the middleman. They have far too much sense. But I do accuse Ministerial members of representing the middleman's party, because their election campaigns are financed by middlemen. Members of the Country party know that while the middleman is not a friend of the farmer, ha cannot well be a friend of theirs. In the circumstances, I am at. a loss to understand why they should object to the amendment. If they have some better proposal by which greater protection might be given to the interests of the dairy farmers, they should submit it. We have to consider whether there is any probability that the price of butter in the outside world will rise. I believe that the present price on the London market of Danish butter is 330s. per cwt. I have- recently been supplied with extracts from letters coming from Germany. They were given to me to assist me m making representations to the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene),** from whom the people who supplied me with the information are trying to obtain some relief. Those quotations show that the price of butter in Germany to-day is tremendous, and so is the price of lard. Honorable members are aware that at the present time trading with Germany is not allowed. Still, the Government have been human© enough to allow people in Australia to send 11-lbs. parcels to friends in Germany who may be in need, and there are very many of them so placed. In this way parcels of condensed milk have been sent to Germany, and so great there is the need for milk for children, that although these parcels have been sent to private persons, the German Government have taken possession of them, and do not permit adults in Germany to use the condensed milk. I mention that to show the great shortage of dairy products which there must be in Germany. What is true of Germany in this respect is true of other parts of Europe. If this be the position in Germany, it seems to me that so far from the price of butter being likely to go down, it is much more likely to increase. Believing this, I wish as far as possible to protect the interests of the primary producers of the article here. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- The honorable member speaks as if the Government made this deal, whereas the primary . producers themselves made it. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I thank the honorable member for his interjection. A statement was made by him to the effect thatfour middlemen at the conference were opposed to the agreement. Then we had the statement which I have attributed to the Minister for Trade and Customs, but the statements do not agree. Of the thirteen names mentioned there is only one I know anything about, and I have said that that is the name of a firm that is not representative of the primary producers. I am in the circumstances placed in such a position that I am inclined to question the contention that the agreement represents the views of the genuine primary producers. I have tried to assure myself on the point, and if I could have been absolutely certain that the Bill represents a legitimate request of the genuine primary producers, I should have been inclined to go with the honorable members of the Country party all the way. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- We all honestly believe that. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- Just as I am willing to stand by the decision of a majority of unionists as to the price at which they will sell their labour, so, if I were absolutely assured that honorable members supporting the agreement really represent the views of the primary producers, I should feel bound to stand behind their request. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member knows that in no circumstances could he be persuaded to support a Government proposal. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I am not going to permit the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** to tell me what I know. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.* {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- We should encourage the dairying industry because of its importance to the nation. If we stand by the amendment, which provides that the primary producer should obtain the world's parity for his exportable surplus, we shall do much to encourage the extension of the industry. I have here a statement by **Mr. A.** H. Renard, author of *ABC of Scientific Feeding,* &c, which, since it deals with the importance of the industry to the nation, I desire to place on record - >It cannot be too often, or too strongly, emphasized that the stability of the dairying in dustry is of absolutely paramount importance to the progress and prosperity of the Commonwealth. It is the greatest money-maker and distributer of ready money among primary industries. Its expansion on permanently successful lines is, without any exaggeration, a matter of national life or stagnation. Dairying is the master-key of all Australian industries, because, in the special circumstances, an abundantly large production of milk, enabling a large consumption at a moderate price, is the controlling influence on the physical and mental health, vigour and development of the Australian nation. -Furthermore, this great industry holds the solution of the burning problem of the reduction in cost of living, because it produces milk, butter, and cheese, and powerfully assists in the economical production of beef and pork and bacon . Finally, this single industry, being susceptible of immense expansion and intensive development, on safe and profitable lines, is fully capable of solving the vexed questions of the increase in population, closer settlement on the land, drift of rural population to the cities, and a huge export trade. I indorse all these statements, with the exception of that in which the writer speaks of the dairying industry as being the greatest of money-makers. My observation of those engaged in the dairying industry leads me to believe that, having regard to the labour they put into it, they do not receive the returns which can be secured in many other avenues of employment. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It is the hardest job in the world. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- For once, the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** and I are in agreement - dairying is one of the hardest of jobs. Another reason why I desire that the primary producer shall obtain the world's parity for his exportable surplus is that in that event the home consumer could also be protected. Earlier in the debate, the Treasurer tried to make it appear that our party wished to " have it coming and going" - that we desired that the primary producer should obtain the highest price for his produce, and that the consumer should get it at the cheapest rate. I have no such desire. The thought running in my mind is that if, in respect of the exportable surplus, we make it our duty as far as possible to obtain for those engaged in this industry the world's parity, we shall give encouragement to them to enter into the business extensively and scientifically. I do not think many honorable members will claim that, compared with some European peoples, and particularly trie Danes, we have entered into the dairying industry as scientifically or as extensively as Ave might have done. By obtaining for our dairy farmers the fullest return for their surplus production, we shall induce them to enter more extensively and scientifically into their industry. By the adoption of more scientific methods, they will obtain greater results, and the Home consumers will thereby* benefit considerably. To emphasize this point, I shall make another quotation f rom **Mr. Renard** The facts that the writer brings mct are worth recording, and may give an impetus to those in the industry who have not given full consideration to the application of science to it. He says - >Dairying can bc made a gilt-edged medium of investment, and brought to almost an exact science by the use of scientific methods of feeding the cows and the land. The profitable nature of the rational scientific feeding of land and stock has been proved beyond question. The average production of butter per cow in the Commonwealth is authoritatively given as 165 lbs. It should be, and can be, raised to 265 lbs. per cow within the next ten years. The Danish dairy farmer raised the average production of butter per cow from 175 lbs. to 200 lbs. in five years, and to 260 lbs. in ten years from the date of the commencement of the campaign for the adoption of scientific method into the feeding of Denmark herds. Who will say that the Australian cannot do better than the Dane when he puts his mind to it? In the earlier portion of my remarks I referred to the importance of this industry to the nation, and I should like for a moment to deal with a matter affecting the consumer. Only last week there was placed in my hands by a chemist a circular which he had received setting out that that splendid article, lactogen, which has been retailed to the people of Australia at 6s. per tin, is now to cost 9s. per tin. In other words', there is to be an increase of 50 per cent, in the price. This is a very important matter, and I propose to ask the Government to-morrow whether they are prepared to subsidize those who produce lactogen so that without any loss to the primary producer its price may not be increased to the consumers. I hope the Government will be able to make some arrangement whereby the cost of this commodity, which is so necessary to the child of the mother who is unable to nourish it in the natural way will not be raised. The burden of the increase must press most heavily upon the poorer classes of the community. By the employment of help in her home a wife, even in strenuou circumstances, can very often fulfil her full maternal duties. But the wife of a working man, who cannot afford help - who has to attend to her own houses hold duties until almost the moment of her accouchement, and who, three or four weeks after her child is born, has again to do a fair share of the work of the house - needs special assistance in nourishing her offspring. It appears to me, therefore, that this increase in the price of lactogen will be an additional burden on the shoulders of those least able to bear it. I do not wish to take up the time of the House unduly, but during the course of the debate certain statements have been made to which I desire to refer. The honorable member for- Lilley **(Mr. Mackay),** for instance, said that he noticed that great interest was " now " being taken in the farmers by honorable members of the Labour party. I am glad to have that admission from a member of the Liberal party ; but there was no occasion for the honorable member to use the word " now," as for years past the Labour party has made it its duty to watch the interests of the primary producers, and to encourage their industries in every way. I also notice that the representatives of the Corner party made similar comments, and that the honorable member for Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** used words to this effect:- " A greater interest in the farmers is evident in the House on the Labour party's side than when I came here eighteen, months ago." I desire to remind the honorable member who made the statement that,, during the past eighteen months, and since he first entered this Chamber, there has been a general election, the results of which clearly indicated that the members of the Labour party have always been active in assisting the primary producers, because five additional members from primary producers' districts have entered the Chamber as direct supporters of the Labour party. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I should like to know- {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I have a very good idea that the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** is now seeking to interrupt me in an endeavour to defend the Corner party, and it would appear that there is some foundation for the cartoon that was recently published in the *Bulletin.* {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I should like to know what this has to do with the Bill under discussion. I call your attention, **Mr. Speaker,** to the fact that the honorable member for Angas **(Mr. Gabb)** is discussing everything under the sun, but the proposal before the Chair. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That is a reflection on the Chair. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- **Mr. Speaker** was otherwise engaged, or he would have noticed that the honorable member was not discussing the Bill. The honorable member is discussing questions far removed from the principles embodied in the measure, and it is time he discussed the butter question. {: #subdebate-23-0-s11 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Elliot Johnson: -- Order! I ask the honorable member for Angas **(Mr. Gabb)** to confine his remarks to the question before the Chair. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I have to thank the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** for endeavouring to put me right. I wish to inform him, however, that he was not attentively listening to what I was saying, or he would have noticed that my remarks were relevant. {: #subdebate-23-0-s12 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order. I again ask the honorable member to discuss the Bill. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I intend to do that. I was merely quoting a statement made by another honorable member in relation to honorable members of this side of the chamber, and which was allowed to pass. In common fairness, I should be allowed to refer to that statement, and comment upon it. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! Will the honorable member discuss the Bill? {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- **Mr. Speaker,** am I not to be allowed to comment on a statement that has already been made by another honorable member? {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member must discuss the Bill before the House, and heis entitled to comment on other speeches relevant to the Bill, hut not to digress into extraneous matters. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- Very well; but it seems that a position has arisen whereby one honorable member is entitled to refer to the party to which I have the honour to belong, and that I, as a member of that party, am not to be allowed to reply. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! I call upon the honorable member for Angas to withdraw that statement, as it is a reflection on the Chair. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The Treasurer reflected on the Chair. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- If I have reflected on the Chair, I am prepared to withdraw, hut I understand- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order! The honorable member must withdraw the remark without qualification. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I am supporting the amendment made by the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney),** because the party to which I belong has always been prepared to do its best in the interests of the primary producers in the Commonwealth, and that is proved by the fact that five new Labour members from rural districts were returned to this House at the last general election. The amendment is in the interests of the butter producers, and I believe that I was interrupted by the Treasurer because I was defending them. I oan quite understand that when I refer to middlemen the representative of a district which consists largely of middlemen would try to embarrass me. It is the desire of Labour members in this chamber to protect the primary producers as far as possible from the interference of those who come between the producer and consumer. As a Labour representative, it is my desireto see that the primary producers obtain the world's parity for any surplus products that may be exported. The members of my party always endeavour to protect the primary producers from the middleman and all those associated with him. In conclusion, I regret that I have not had the same privileges extended to me as have been accorded to other honorable members. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order! I call upon the honorable member for Angas **(Mr. Gabb)** to withdraw that statement, which is. again, a gross reflection on the Chair, and to apologize to the House. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- I desire to remain in the chamber, and- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order! The honorable member must withdraw without any qualification whatever. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- Yes, I will withdraw. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member must aoologize. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB: -- Yes, I apologize. {: #subdebate-23-0-s13 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- 1 have no desire to delay the passage of this Bill, but I wish to refer briefly to the question of Government control. I am supporting the Bill with a good deal of misgiving, but I have no intention of supporting the amendment for reasons I shall give later. For some time I have been extremely desirous of getting away from Avar conditions, and as conditions are now becoming normal, measures such as this should not be necessary. Probably there should be some Government supervision in matters of this kind, but there appears to be a tendency on the part of certain Ministers to try to retain as long as possible some of those powers which were exercised under the War Precautions Act. It is generally recognized that the sooner we revert to normal conditions the better it will be, not only for the primary producers, but for the community generally. I intend to throw down the gauntlet to the Government in connexion with propositions of this character, because there has been too much Government interference, with resultant heavy losses to the producers. I want them to understand that, unless definite requests are made by the producers for legislation of this character, they are acting in a manner that will place them in difficulties and jeopardize their position as occupants of the Treasury bench. My objection to the amendment moved by the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney)** is that, while he seeks to give the producers an open market for export produce, his party has never !been inclined to do so in connexion with produce sold within the Commonwealth. I think it is generally admitted that the work of a dairy farmer is extremely arduous, as many of them have to work from daylight until dark for seven days a week. During a recent visit to the Colac district I was informed by dairy farmers that the cost of fodder and other requirements, as well as the increased cost of labour, was such that butter at the present price was not so profitable to handle ns when it was ls. 2d. and ls. 3d. a lb. We all know that there has been a decrease in our dairy herds, and that the butter production has fallen off considerably. During the last few years there has been a change in connexion with the butter industry, and in such districts as Warrnambool very little butter is now being manufactured. In some of our principal dairying districts the milk is being sold to Nestle's factory for condensing and other purposes. When at Colac recently, I noticed that large quantities of milk were coming to the factories, and, instead of the skimmed milk being taken away for pig3, a large quantity was being used in making casein, and in the 'manufacture of Lactogen and other milk foods. Unless we are prepared to pay a fairly high price for butter, it is quite possible that those now engaged in the industrywill go out of it. Not one member opposite would answer the question, " Should the producer .be given an open and free market in Australia?"' According to the Queensland newspapers, the price fixed for butter on 12th August last by the Government of that State was £228 a ton, although on that date £240 a ton was being given for it in New South Wales and Victoria. In other words, the Queensland producers were getting £12 per ton less for their butter than those of the other States. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Do you say that that is the case now ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The price of butter has been increased in Queensland during the past few days to £238 pelton when put up in 56-lb. cases, and to £240 a ton when put up in 28-lb. cases. The view I hold is that the producer, - whether of meat, wool, hides, butter, or any other produce - should obtain on the home market the world's parity for his produce. He is the man who takes all the_ risk, and those who desire the prosperity of the country will insist that he gets the world's parity by way of reward. Honorable members opposite give us no assurance that with a clear and open export market the producer would be able to obtain the world's parity for his butter here. We know that their intention will be to fix the price of butter locally. For that reason a representative like myself could not hand over the control of this country's affairs to a party which would fix prices locally. When we put through a Bill providing for the Butter Pool, I was satisfied that the views of the> producers had been fully represented, and that it was not merely a measure for giving Ministerial control. I would always -"refer to be without Ministerial interference; but it is necessary in this case to get into touch with the Imperial Government. I cannot understand why the High Commissioner in London, whose office costs us' over £60,000 a year, cannot supply us with good and solid information regarding markets .and other trade matters. If the New York office that it is proposed to open will do no better for us, we had better save our money by not opening it. A big change should be made in the London office. The Minister told us that he had cabled to London for certain information, and had received no reply. We should insist on getting the information that we need. We pay so* much for the upkeep of the High Commissioner's Office that we should expect from that office results which would assist in the building up of our industries. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- Will you move an amendment to bring that about? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- When we come to the Estimates, I am prepared to take action. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- Any other time! {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I like to deal with things on the proper occasion. Had the honorable member a greater knowledge of the proper working of Parliament, he would realize that the time for discussing this matter is when the Estimates are before us. I do not know why the " said agreement," which is referred to in the Bill, has not been added to it as a schedule. The butter producers desired an open market at Home, and sent representatives to England with the instruction to do the best they could to get it. Having failed, these representatives appear to have done the next best thing, with a view to obtaining a fair price for the butter exported. My desire is to keep our industry unhampered by Ministerial control. I have been told by persons connected with the dairying industry that when an endeavour was being made to arrange a price in connexion with a previous contract with the British Government, the butter producers of Victoria had their agent at Home, who was in consultation there with our Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes).** The latter cabled to Australia asking for a free hand, and saying that without it he could not carry on the negotiations. He got a free hand, and, according to what I have been told - and I have reason to believe that it is true - he fixed a price considerably lower than that which was given for butter from other countries. I cannot conceive that the Imperial Government would wish to give us worse terms than other countries; and after the great sacrifices we have made, we should insist upon receiving prices as good as, if not better than, those paid for commodities from other countries. But we cannot afford to lose the British market, to which the greater part of our butter has been sent for more than a decade, and the butter producers having said that they are content with the price that has been agreed upon, we should support the measure which sanctions their agreement. As I have said, I do not desire Government interference in the fixing of prices, or in the making of contracts for the sale of our commodities abroad. 1S0 far as possible, business men should be allowed to manage their own affairs. Ministers have quite enough to do in carrying on the ordinary administration of their 'Departments, and, in my opinion, should, as much as possible, keep their fingers off other people's business. {: #subdebate-23-0-s14 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
South Sydney .- The one object of the Bill is to control the exportation of butter. I understand that representatives of the farmers have entered into an agreement at Home for the sale of our butter there. If the Government was not consulted about that agreement, why has it brought in this Bill to sanction it? The honorable' member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** says that he does not desire Government interference or control, and I hope that the House will take him at his word by rejecting the Bill, and letting - this agreement stand on its merits. I hope, too, that the honorable member will give effect to his views by his vote. Are none but the producers of butter interested in this matter? If a body of unionists made an agreement with, say, the boot manufacturers, to charge a certain price for their labour, while the manufacturers were to put up the price of boots 100 per cent., would it be said that no one else was interested? {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- This is an export matter. Our contention now is similar to that of the Opposition last week when the Industrial Peace Bill was before the House. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- You are asking for the sanction of Parliament to an agreement made "on behalf of the butter producers. But the British Government might sell our butter at a profit of 10s. or 15s. a cwt., and the object of the amendment is to secure in that case the. world's parity to our producers. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- Suppose that the world's parity falls. {: .speaker-JOG} ##### Mr Bayley: -- Then the butter producers will be thankful for this agreement. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- I have heard my friends of the Corner party contend that the producers should get the London parity for their commodities. In the past they have been cheated of that, and have justly complained, and a strong farmers' party was sent into this House to look after their interests. I am afraid that that party is not doing so in this matter. They say that an agreement has been entered into for the sale of our butter at 240s. a cwt. But it is not provided that, should the British Government sellthat butter at a profit, the producers here must benefit.We ought to protect our own people. There is another party to this matter, the consumers of this country, who ought to be considered. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- In what way? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- The people in the towns have helped to develop the country. The farmers depend on them for the supply of clothes, boots, implements, and other necessaries. It is the people generally who haveborrowed large sums to build railways and open up the country, thus assisting development and making it possible for the farmer to live and send his produce to market. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Does the honorable member deny that the farmers have paid their share of taxes? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Of course they have; but there are plenty of railways running, into the country which do not pay interest on capital cost. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- The railways do not pay because they have been built for the benefit of the city man. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -Country railways are not paying, but city people have to make good the losses. I have been astonished at the coolness of some honorable members, who say,"Will you not give us the benefit of the world's parity for all our commodities?" Can you imagine a country such as this, which over-produces, being compared with a country which, throughout several years of war, has been surrounded and nearly cut off by enemy vessels?Here, in Australia, we cannot get rid of all our produce ; yet some honorable members seek to compare the Commonwealth with starving countries of the-' Old World. The idea behind the indorsement of this Bill by Parliament is to insure to producers good prices oversea for their commodities. Once this Bill is passed, producers will send away all the butter possible, and up will go the price to local consumers. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- Now you have let the cat out of the bag. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Surely we should consider the consumer as well as the producer. I would not argue or protest against reasonable profits being secured to the producer. The dairy farmer leads a life of drudgery, and should be well paid for his produce; but for this Parliament to inaugurate a ring to send out of Australia what it chooses to describe as a surplus, suggests several questions, amongst which is, "Who shall say what is surplus?" {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- What advantage would there be for the primary producer to send too much butter overseas if he is receiving the same price in Australia? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- But he would not be receiving the same price. If this Bill passes, only those who come into the agreement will be able to export butter, and these people will practically control export. Who are these controllers? {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL:
DARWIN, TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931 -- They represent every man and woman, and every little "kid" who, milks a cow from one end of the year to another, all over Australia. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Then we will take it that all these folk are interested in securing the best possible price for butter. If 5s. is the price in England these people will expect to get the same here; or they will say, " England is the place to which to send our butter," and, naturally, they will send their produce there. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- This Bill is designed to prevent that. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Who will prevent it? . {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- The Pool. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- It will be to the interests of the Pool to secure the highest price available abroad, and sell at that price as much as possible of our Australian butter overseas. The Pool will see to it that considerably more than what should be fairly regarded as surplus will be exported, and home consumers will not only be almost unable to buy butter, but will be required to pay a higher price than ever for such supplies as they can secure. Honorable members of the Country party say, " This is an honorable agreement ; let u3 honour it." Do honorable members believe in honouring honorable agreements? {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- We do. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Then what about standing by the honorable agreement set forth in the Constitution for the building of the Federal Capital? {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- We are prepared to stand by that, but we do not say when. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Here we have an honorable agreement, set forth in black and white in our Constitution. Honorable members will not admit that it is their intention to dishonour it, but they say, " Not now, oh Lord ! but some time." I hope the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** will see to it, that, if this Bill is passed, the interests of consumers will not be lost sight of, while those of the producers are specially conserved. Are the butter producers the only people to be considered? They are a hardworking honest body of men; but it is the manipulation of the middlemen that I fear. I cannot understand why honorable members should not accept the amendment of the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney).** {: #subdebate-23-0-s15 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley .- I have been struck by the lack of information supplied to the House. The Minister **(Mr. Greene),** in effect, threw the measure upon the table, and furnished no detailed explanation. He certainly made reference to an agreement. Honorable members examined the measure, and found that it all turned upon some agreement. The Minister's whole explanation had to do with that agreement, which, however, not one honorable member had seen. It was not until the Opposition had determinedly demanded the production of that agreement that it came to light. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- But I told honorable members all that was in it. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Last evening we heard honorable members in the corner talking about this agreement, and when they were asked if they had seen it, and whether they knew what was in it, they had to admit that they knew nothing of what it contained. I hope the Government will take to heart the lesson that, when they introduce measures, they should furnish all the information at their disposal, and not merely say to honorable members, "You will have to swallow this, whether you like it or not." {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- The Minister has another agreement, I understand. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- If what the honorable member for Eden-Monaro hints is correct, it is an astounding revelation. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I assure .the honorable member that there is no other agreement in the possession of the Government. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Am I to understand that there is, in the possession of those two delegates overseas, some other form of agreement? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member must not take that view at all. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- It is time to protest. It is obvious that there is something behind this. The Minister is quibbling. He says the Government are not in possession of any other agreement, but when I tax him squarely with a query concerning whether or not the two representatives at the other end of the world are in possession of some distinctive and separate agreement, he sidesteps the issue. No explanation is offered. It is time we had a little more candour on the part of the Government. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is time we had a little less suspicion on the part of the Opposition. I have told the House all I know. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- If that is so, the Minister does not know much. This Bill proposes to regulate the price of butter. While purporting to restrict export, it is, in actual fact, providing for export. So far as producers are concerned, it would appear that, unless they are prepared to export through a particular channel, and under certain circumstances and conditions as to price, marketing, and the like, not one ounce of their butter will go overseas. {: .speaker-KIT} ##### Mr Mackay: -- What does the honorable member mean by his " particular channel "'? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The particular channel provided for in the Bill. The agreement provides that the Minister must be satisfied that the butter is being exported by or with the consent of the Pool; in other words, only those who are parties to the agreement. will be allowed to export butter, and all the producers who do not consider that the agreement gives them an opportunity for expanding their industry will be debarred. The attitude of the Country party is a complete negation of their claim to represent the primary producers. We have heard those honorable members demanding time after time that the producer shall have the world's parity for his goods. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- So he should. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- So he should for his exportable surplus, and we are prepared to give the butter producer, or any other primary producer, the world's parity for the exportable surplus; indeed, we shall insist on his obtaining it. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- Will you support a proposal to make the price of the exportable surplus 400s. per cwt., and give away the butter in Australia? Apparently, that is what you are working for. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- That is not so; but the honorable member and his colleagues are working to rob the people of Australia of as much as possible, and we refuse to allow them to do so. We on this side propose to assist the legitimate primary producer to get the world's parity for his surplus. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Where is the extra money going to if the price rises? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- If the world's parity rises to 250s., the producer, under this agreement, will reap no benefit from the increased price for his exportable surplus. How can the Country party claim to represent the primary producer when they agree to a measure which will prevent him from obtaining the world's parity? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It is a good union agreement. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- It may be; but I wish to know whether what we have before us is the whole of the agreement, or only part of it. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have said several times that it is the whole of the agreement {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Those who pretend to represent the primary producers ought to give a little consideration to the trend of the world's affairs to-day. Over the whole of Europe, there is a great demand for butter and other of our primary products, and the tendency is for prices, not to come down, but to increase. Thi-? is because the war practically stopped primary production in European countries, and there is a serious shortage in other parts of the world. Cannot the socalled representatives of the primary producers see the position into which they are leading those people? The moment this measure is passed, if the price' goes to 300s., the producers of Australia will not receive one penny more than is provided in the agreement. But this is merely a repetition of the manner in which the primary producers have been, treated right since the commencement of the war. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The primary producers of Balmain ! {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I am speaking, not merely as the representative of a particular district, but as a public man endeavouring to take an intelligent interest in public affairs. I want those honorable members who have so readily accepted the agreement to note that it provides that payment for the butter may be made " at any date after the butter has been in cold storage at the port of shipment for fourteen days." That means that the butter producers cannot be paid one penny before the lapse of fourteen days, and, further, in the absence of any fixed period, that they may be kept waiting for six months, or even twelve months, before receiving payment. Can we believe that the primary producers will accept such a condition ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If the honorable member understood the agreement, he would see that the producers will get their money every month in the way they have always got it. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- It is all very well for the Minister to make those remarks across the table, but all we have before us is the agreement and the Bill. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The agreement enables us to pay the money every month. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The agreement prevents any payment under fourteen days, and, as I have pointed out, in the absence of any fixed period, the producer may be kept waiting even twelve months without having any claim on the Government. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, they have a claim. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- If the Minister will point out in the agreement any clause to compel the Pool or the Government to pay the money ut any particular period, I will admit my error; but all I find in the agreement is what I have stated. However, I leave the point for the socalled representatives of the primary producers to meditate upon, and in the meantime the real facts will be placed before the producers themselves for their consideration. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- With big headlines in the *Worker,* I suppose. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The *Worker* is a very good newspaper which circulates extensively amongst the primary producers of Australia. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am glad the honorable member admits that he has been electioneering over this Bill. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I have been doing nothing of the sort, and the Minister -has no right to make the suggestion. If the Minister means that we are endeavouring to displace this middleman's Government from the Treasury bench, then he is right, and we shall take the first chance to do' so. Another provision in the agreement is that the seller shall accept all risk on the butter up to the time of shipment, except deterioration of quality due to length of storage. That means that the whole of the risks of the butter being destroyed fey fire, flood, or any other disaster, must be borne by the seller, who is the primary producer. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- It is the only business way. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- It is- not, because in the meat contract with the Imperial Government, towards the end of the war, the whole of the risks were accepted by that Government. Why are the members of the Country party not looking after the interests of the people they claim to represent? Why cannot the buyers of Australia's primary products take these risks ? {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- Does the honorable member think that it may be possible to effect the sale 'of our primary products to any other country under more advantageous terms than those which are embodied in this agreement? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Unquestionably, I do. I believe that within six months of the passing of this Bill there will be such an outcry from our primary producers that the honorable member will wish that he had never seen it. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- If that should happen the honorable member will occupy a very good position, but where will he be if prices should come down? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Everybody recognises that the whole trend of events is for the price of commodities to rise. **Sir- Joseph** Cook. - T.he honorable member wants dear butter for the dockers. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The Treasurer knows that I want nothing of the sort. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Then there is no meaning in the honorable member's argument. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- There is a lot of meaning in my argument. The middlemen who have our primary producers in the bag are desirous of grabbing the profits which will be made out of butter on the other side of the world. Consequently, the primary producer will be compelled to increase his price to the people of Australia. Under the agreement to which reference is made in the Bill, our butter will be exported to the Old Country and the producer will be bound to accept 240s. per cwt. for it. While he is receiving that price butter will probably be realizing 300s.1 per cwt. in the London market. What will happen then ? The middlemen will step in, corner all our butter, and re-sell it to the public of Great Britain and of other countries at a huge profit, thereby robbing the primary producer of the price to which he is entitled. If members of the Country party cannot see that, they are not fit representatives of our primary producers. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The Balmain people will understand the honorable member's action in seeking to put up the price of their butter. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- They will understand that the. Commonwealth Government are going to allow profiteers in Great Britain to make huge fortunes out of Australian butter just as they allowed them to make huge fortunes out of Australian wheat and wool. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member has been arguing for a solid hour in favour of dearer butter. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I do not know that the primary producers of this country had an opportunity of approving this agreement. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Why does the honorable member think that? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Because when I look down the list of the names of those who are to constitute this Dairy Produce Pool Committee I find there the names of middlemen and agents who have never produced an ounce of anything, except hide and impudence, in their lives. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Does the honorable member thank that a politician should criticise other people's hides? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- The Treasurer, no doubt, speaks from a wealth of experience upon that matter. **Mr. Basche,** for example, is an exporter and agent in Sydney. We know him to be one of the biggest middlemen in New South Wales to-day. Yet he is put forward as a representative of our primary producers. Then I should like to know who appointed the two delegates who have proceeded to Great Britain. Were the primary producers called upon to vote for their selection? {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- Yes, through their organizations. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -Was a ballot-paper supplied to each member of those organizations with the names of the candidates upon it? Certainly not. Mr.Greene. - The honorable member is quite wrong. Every one of these men was selected by ballot. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Why did not the Minister say so when he introduced the measure? He would have obviated a good deal of hostile criticism had he been candid upon the matter. Mr.Greene. - I told the House that every member of the Dairy Produce Pool Committee had been selected by the primary producers themselves. Probably the honorable member was not in the chamber at the time. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Oh, yes, I was. As the representative of a large industrial constituency, I hold that the interests of trade unions are wrapped up in the interests of our primary producers. So, too, are inextricably interwoven with the interests of our primary producers the interests of the workers in our cities. Onlythe aid of the latter makes it pos sible for our primary producers to export their surplus products. Without our seamen, our coal-miners, our dockers, and our shipbuilders it would not be possible for a single ounce of our primary products to be exported overseas. Consequently, we look to the primaryproducers to give us a fair deal, and we will then see that they get a fair deal in return. Our interests are absolutely identical. The genuine primary producer needs to keep his eyes open lest he should find himself in the bag of the middleman. To my mind, the acceptance or otherwise of the agreement which has been entered into with the Imperial Government should rest with our primary producers themselves. When the Bill reaches Committee I intend to move an amendment to the effect that the measure shall not become operative until it has been referred to our primary producers for an expression of their opinion upon it. Certainly middlemen should not be permitted to determine whether or not the proposed Dairy Produce Pool shall be established. {: #subdebate-23-0-s16 .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM:
Gwydir -- I listened with very great attention to the explanation given by the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** when submitting this Bill for our consideration, and I was indeed surprised to learn, as he unfolded his statement, that the agreement is not embodied in it. The measure contains nothing which will enable an outsider to grasp what was the intention of Parliament in assenting to it. For some considerable time there has been a tendency on the part of the Government to keep not only members of this Parliament, hut also the people of Australia, absolutely in the dark concerning transactions carried out by it, and with its authority. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- It has adopted a "keepitdark" policy. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- Precisely. I was under the impression that, with the conclusion of the war, these conditions would pass away, and that we should once more revert to the conditions which obtained in pre-war days, when everything was done in the most open manner possible. In this measure there is nothing to indicate the amount of the expenditure to which the Commonwealth willbe committed if Parliament assents to it. I think that we should be given that .information. The Minister has stated that this Bill must be passed in order that money may be paid over. Is there any honorable member who has the faintest idea of the expenditure to which it will commit us? Possibly the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** may have that information, but, if so, he has not seen fit to enlighten its upon the matter. The Bill refers to an agreement which has not been embodied in it in the form of a schedule. Evidently that agreement has been forced upon the representatives of the producers by the Imperial authorities. We have been told that our producers applied to the Imperial authorities for an open market in Great Britain, and that the Government of that country refused to give it to them. Why? Is that the spirit of Empire? Are we to continue to be hewers of wood and drawers of water always, instead of partners in the Empire? It is an outrage on the people of Australia that their representatives should be forced into an agreement of this character. The people of Australia will have to take a determined stand against a continuance of this policy. We have our debts to meet, and why should we be exploited by the Government of Great Britain ? We are pleased to find our friends in the Corner party in agreement with us when we say that the primary producers are entitled to fair conditions. Nobody realizes that better than do honorable members on this side of the House. My first' recollection of dairy farming is of milking, when I was four years of age. It is the representatives of the middlemen on the Government benches who are responsible for many of the primary producers being in their present unfortunate position. This Bill provides for the prohibition of the export of butter. I well remember the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** prohibiting the export of rabbit skins during the war, thereby robbing the trappers and graziers of hundreds of thousands of pounds. He forced the supplies into the hands of middlemen; the trappers and graziers were compelled to sell their rabbit skins at low prices to the manufacturers, who afterwards obtained his consent to export at the world's parity. They knew .to a minute when the embargo would be lifted, and were able to buy in anticipation. They held stocks much larger than were required for any purposes of manufacture, such as hat-making, in Australia, and as soon as the embargo was lifted they exported their surplus, and made hundreds of thousands of pounds out of the unfortunate wage-earners and graziers. From past experience we know that we cannot trust the Government; they are allied to the middlemen. The money of the middlemen is behind the National party, and it is regrettable that the members of the so-called Country party, who were $ent into Parliament to put down this sort of thing, should, day after day, vote to keep the Government in power. Read the pre-election speeches of honorable members of the so-called Country party and contrast them with the attitude they have adopted in the House. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- The honorable member is very much concerned about the Country party. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- I am not concerned about you, but I am about the men whom honorable members have taken down. In view of the statement made in the House, that the primary producers were in favour of this agreement, I sent a telegram to a constituent, who is one of the largest butter producers in my electorate, and I have received this reply - >I have no knowledge of any such agreement, and I hope you will resist tooth and nail any agreement of that character which prohibits export or keeps the price at 240s. per cwt. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- He is not in the union. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- He is a more solid unionist than any man who sits on the Ministerial side, and he stands for higher prices for his exportable surplus. I am prepared to supply honorable members with his name. The honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page),** who interjects, belongs to the British Medical Association, a union that defies the Government. This is the first time that I have heard that a member of the British Medical Association is a primary producer. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- What has the honorable member to say about the honorable member for Yarra **(Mr. Tudor),** when Minister for Trade and Customs, placing an embargo on the export of butter, although the price was down to ls. 3d. per lb. 1 {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- What has that to do with this Bill? Honorable members are continually referring to the condition of affairs in Queensland. Can they tell why the Queensland Labour party, led by the present honorable member for. West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan),** has at successive elections annihilated the Liberal party and the middlemen who are represented on the Government side to-day ? The primary producers of Queensland registered their opinion of Labour government, and, after all, that is the best test. I am very sorry indeed that we should be asked to agree to a Bill introduced in such a haphazard fashion; but I expect nothing business-like from the present Government. The Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** has had no business training, not one per cent, of the business men throughout Australia have any time for him as a manager or arranger of business deals. The haphazard method in which this Bill is brought forward is only another evidence of the incapacity of the Prime Minister and those who keep him in power. There has been some reference to cable messages. I believe the honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page)** said something about a cable he had up his sleeve, in which it is promised that the primary producers, of whom I am one,, shall receive some amount above the fixed price if the market rises. If the producer is to receive the full world's parity, why embody in the agreement a fixed price of 240s. per cwt.? I am very pleased that the honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** supports us when he ' states " that in all probability within the next six months the primary producers will regret having made this agreement." Is not such a statement from an honorable member on that side the strongest possible condemnation of the Bill ? The honorable member for Eden-Monaro **(Mr. Austin Chapman)** has by interjection given a clear indication of what he thinks of the agreement. Then why persist with the Bill when honorable members admit that there is likely to be serious trouble and loss in carrying out the agreement? I indorse the stand taken by the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony)** in regard to the interpretation of that clause of the agreement which says that the sellers " shall accept all risks to the butter up to the time of shipment, except deterioration of quality due to length of storage." Let honorable members be warned by our experience in working under a similar provision in connexion with the wheat sales. We were told that the wheat must be put into the Pool. As soon as we did that we lost control of it. So, too, when the butter goes into the Pool, the dairy farmers will lose control of it. It will.be under the management of officials, and whilst the producers can do nothing, they must bear all the losses. If I am to be liable for losses, I wish to control my produce. Is there a business man in the country who would agree to allow his goods to go out of his control whilst responsible for all risks and losses? . If there is such a man, he will not remain in business long. Many primary producers are in their present bad financial position because, unfortunately, they have listened to the glib tales of those who represent the middlemen on the Treasury bench; and they have not been able to enforce business deals from the Government that has persecuted them during the last four years. We have only to look at the result of Nationalist administration in New South Wales; the last elections are eloquent upon that point, and what is true of New South Wales will be true of other States as soon as the people have a chance of voting intelligently as to who shall represent them in Parliament. If there had been in operation an electoral system which would have given the people a chance of registering an. intelligent vote- {: #subdebate-23-0-s17 .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES -- Order! The honorable' member is going beyond the scope of the Bill. {: .speaker-K88} ##### Mr CUNNINGHAM: -- It is because the Government have not exercised business acumen in conserving the interests of the primary producers but have used the powers given to them during war time for the advantage of the middlemen, that honorable members who represent the producers, such as the honorable members for Calare **(Mr. Lavelle),** Werriwa **(Mr. Lazzarini),** Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney),** Angas **(Mr. Gabb),** and myself, desire a discontinuance of the Government's present arbitrary powers, and the withdrawal and recasting of this Bill in the terms of the amendment. We desire the primary producers to obtain the world's parity for their exportable surplus, so that the greatest possible amount of money may be coming into the country, instead of, as has been the case during the last four or five years, the interests of the Australian producer being made subservient to the interests of the people of other countries, to the detriment of the whole of our people. {: #subdebate-23-0-s18 .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EdenMonaro -- I am in somewhat of a dilemma in connexion with this Bill. I represent probably the biggest butterproducing district in New South Wales. It is certainly the district in which the bestbutter is produced, although the greatest quantity may not be produced there. This Bill is based upon an agreement about which we knew nothing when the measure was introduced. Information concerning it has had to be extracted from the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** as a dentist extracts -a tooth. We are told now that there is an addendum to the agreement., I remember that while we were able to make an agreement with regard to the sale of our wool, we discovered, later on, that tremendous profits were made by its re-sale abroad, which should have been returned to our wool producers. It seems to me that we are almost bound to ratify this butter agreement; but I am rather afraid that the dairymen of this country will be placed in the same position as our woolgrowers were placed under the wool agreement. We have been led to believe that the agreement has been made by representatives of the dairy farmers of this country; but the honorable member for Gwydir **(Mr. Cunningham),** who is himself a primary producer arid a dairy farmer, judging from his speech, had no knowledge of the making of this agreement. He expresses doubt as to whether it represents the views of the primary producers. I am satisfied that the honorable member believes what he has said, and speaks honestly in the interests of the producers of this country. We have been informed that the agreement was brought about 'by representatives of the dairy far mers assembled in conference, and elected by the primary producers, and that the Bill is intended practically to ratify what they have done, and to compel the dairy farmers of Australia to keep the conditions of the agreement. If that be so, what are we to think of the remark that the agreement was practically made before the representatives of the primary producers got to the Old Country? The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** shakes his head, but that does not appear in *Hansard;* and I want some assurance to be recorded in *Hansard* that the agreement is one between the dairy farmers of Australia and the Food Controller in Great Britain. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is so. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- If that is so, how does the Minister account for the fact that a cable has been received to the effect that it is probable that a higher price than 240s. per cwt. will be paid for our butter? {: #subdebate-23-0-s19 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No cable to that effect has been received by the Government. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- Or by anybody? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Or by anybody, so far as I know, beyond this: That I believe that there are some negotiations going on at the present time in England between the representatives of the dairymen and the British Government as to an increase of price. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- This House should know exactly what is being done. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have not that information in any official way. I have no official paper to show honorable members that that is the case. All I know is what has appeared in the press. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I accept the Minister's statement, of course; but there is a member of the House who says that he lias received such a cable. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- He may have received a cable. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I am satisfied, from what has been said, that the price obtained will be over 240s. per cwt. ' I understand that the cable received says that it will be at least 250s. per cwt. If that is so, I want to know where the extra 10s. per cwt. is going. I do not want the dairy farmers to have to fight for it as the wool-growers have had to fight for the extra price received for their wool. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I can tell the honorable member at once that if the British Government pay more than 240s. per cwt. for the butter every penny in advance of that price will go into the Dairy Produce Pool, and the committee controlling that Pool will in turn pay it to the producers of the butter. Mr.Parker Moloney. - This Bill will prevent that. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- The Minister's statement satisfies me, but the House should have had that information before. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- How can that be done when the price is fixed by the agreement at 240s. per cwt.? {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I have good reason to believe that although the price has been fixed at 240s. per cwt., there is an understauding equivalent to an agreement that the price paid will be more than 240s. It is a bad thing that the British Government should be accused of squeezing the primary producers of Australia as they have been accused in connexion with the operations of the Wool Pool. That must create a feeling of unrest. No one can accuse me of not being absolutely loyal, of not standing by the Empire, or of not playing the game, but I am quite prepared to ask what right the British Government have to say to the producers of butter, wool, or wheat in Australia that because they have control of transport they will take from them some of their hard-earned profits. They are not entitled to do anything of the kind, and if we had business men conducting the arrangements it could not occur. That it has occurred must be the result of bungling. If an extra price is paid, the farmers have a right to get that price, less the expense of placing the butter before the British consumer. I am glad to have the assurance of the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** that the butter producers of Australia will get that price. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- Does not the honorable member see that if this Bill is passed that cannot be done? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is not so. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- It is. so. The Minister's word cannot override the provisions of an Act of this Parliament. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- The Bill has yet to go through Committee, and we can there provide that this shall be done. We have the assurance of the Minister, and, generally, that is good enough. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- I do not think so. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- That is my experience, at any rate. I am assured that the agreement was made by representatives of the dairymen, and in their interests. I accept the assurance of the Minister that the best price will be obtained. We all know **Mr. Sinclair,** and know that he will do the best that he can for the dairymen. I am assured that whatever price is obtained, that price, less expenses, will go to the man who produces the butter, and that satisfies me. I regret that so much time has been taken up in debating the Bill, because information in the possession of some honorable members was not given to the House generally. We are not playing marbles, but are dealing with one of the great primary industries of Australia. The dairy farmers work late and early. They have no holidays, no furlough, and no overtime, and they are subjected to all sorts of innuendoes about the treatment of those they employ. We have had a reference to the treatment of dairymen's children, which is an infamous libel and slander upon them. I can take the children in my district, and in the district of Richmond, represented by the Minister for Trade and Customs, and the district represented by the honorable member for Gwydir **(Mr. Cunningham),** and compare them with some of the children of the city. That is the answer to such slanders. There are, no doubt, taskmasters in the country as well as in the cities, but country children will compare more than favorably with city children, and they enjoy the advantage of God's pure air which is not enjoyed by the children of the cities. When we come to consider the Bill in Committee, we can make sure that the best price will be obtained for our butter, and will go to the primary producer. It is a practical certainty that the price will increase, because the price of everything is on the up grade. The consumer should be given consideration, as he has a pretty hard time as well as the producer. He can afford to pay higher prices because he is getting double wages. Getting more wages, he expects to have to pay higher prices. I have no desire to be captious concerning the Minister, but he did not treat honorable members well in introducing the Bill. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I gave the House every scrap of information in my possession. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -Did the Minister not know about the cable that has been referred to? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No. All I knew was what appeared in the press, and I could not treat that as official information in putting the Bill before the House. I might have referred to it, but I had no official information, and that is why I did not mention the matter. I felt that a Minister dealing with a question of this sort should confine himself to what he can confirm by his official records. All that information I gave the House. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I think it is a pity that the Minister did not take the House more fully into his confidence, as the matter is one of vital consequence to an important section of the community and to a number of honorable members. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr Lazzarini: -- What will be the use of an agreement fixing the price at 240s. per cwt. if the price is to be raised ? {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I presume that, as a representative of the primary producers has received a cable to the effect that a higher price will be given, that cable will be produced when we get into Committee, and we shall know what we are doing. I shall take a very different stand if it is not produced, because I have no desire to vote in the clark. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr Lazzarini: -- It is said that 250s. per cwt. may be given now, but the price might be 270s. six months hence. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- We have an agreement entered into by representatives of the primary producers for a price of 240s. per cwt. We are given to understand that that is not to be the maximum price, and that, if any higher price is paid, the dairy farmer will get it. That is surely what honorable members opposite have been contending for. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I can show honorable members when we get into Committee how the farmer must get every penny obtained for the butter. We do not handle it in any shape or form. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- There should be some provision in the Bill which will make it quite certain that 240s. is not to be accepted as the maximum price, and that what will be paid will be the London parity. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I shall be able to explain that. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I am very glad to hear it. I do not wish to find fault. because I have had trouble in explaining Bills myself. I intend to support the second reading. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- What about the amendment? Does that not provide for the world's parity? {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I will take that hurdle when I come to it. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- The honorable member must take it now. - {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- It seems to me that we are in a cleft stick. We must ratify the agreement. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- Why? {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- Because it was made by representatives of the primary producers, and we must assume that they are better able to look after their interests than we are. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- I do not think that it was made by representatives of the primary producers. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- We have the assurance of the Minister for Trade and Customs, and we know that delegates were sent Home. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- This Bill does not ratify any agreement. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- No; but it enables the agreement to be kept. It does the very thing which the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** has stood so firmly for in order to avoid trouble and dissatisfaction where people have not been compelled to carry out something that has been arranged. The purpose of this Bill is to prevent persons who have done nothing to bring about the agreement securing an advantage over those who have agreed to it. I accept the Minister's assurances and will vote for the second reading of the Bill, whilst I reserve to myself the right in Committee to see that those assurances shall be given effect. I take it that that is all that honorable members opposite are asking for. {: #subdebate-23-0-s20 .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN:
West Sydney .- I wish to say a few words in support of the amendment moved by the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney),** I congratulate him on the form of the amendment, which seems to admirably meet the difficulty that confronts honorable members in view of the fragmentary way in which the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** dealt with the question of the agreement that is alleged to have been made with the Food Control authorities in England and representatives of the dairying interests who were sent Home. Th© amendment proposes that the Bill should be withdrawn for the purpose of recasting and immediate re-introduction with suitable provisions to insure that the butter producers of Australia shall be guaranteed a return for their exportable surplus butter at a price which shall not be less than the "world's parity for butter during the period in which such exportable surplus is disposed of. A great many of the speeches delivered during the debate remind me of the fact that some years ago when in Parliament I was quoting tie speech of an honorable member delivered some years previously, he interjected, " That is my speech, but how did I vote ? " That is what is happening in 'this House at the present time. We have listened to a number of speeches from members in the Ministerial Corner proclaiming that they stand for the primary producer, and are absolutely against any interference by the Government, and their votes directly will show that they stand for giving the Government a control that has never hitherto been given to any Government that has held office in Australia. They will give the Minister for Trade and Customs the power, not to prohibit the export of a particular commodity in the interests of the Commonwealth, but to prohibit it, except under certain^ conditions, to direct it into a certain channel. Under section 112 of the Customs Act, as it stands, the Governor-General has power by proclamation to prohibit the exportation of any goods " the exportation of which would in his opinion be harmful to the Commonwealth." He has that, amongst other powers, with regard to prohibiting the export of goods, and under it various proclamations have been issued prohibiting exports in order to allow of a proper supply being retained for local consumption. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- When? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- The honorable member ought to know. Section 112 gives power to issue such a proclamation, but there is no provision in the Act to enable the Minister to direct exports into some particular channel. That is what this Bill proposes to do. It does not ratify any agreement. There is not one word in the Bill which would have that effect, but there is in it clauses which will give the Minister power to prohibit the export of butter, except with the approval of a certain committee. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Is that not ratifying the agreement? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- No. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- It is as good as ratifying it. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- How can we ratify an agreement when we do not know what that agreement is. I listened with considerable interest to the honorable] member, because I know that he represents a constituency in which there are many dairy farmers. I remind him that it has been pointed out that there is an agreement, duly signed, fixing the price of butter at 240s. per cwt. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- As the minimum. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- No mention is made of that price being the minimum. The price is fixed at 240s., but we are vaguely told that some one in the House has a cablegram from somebody on the other side of the world to the effect that the primary producers here may receive for their butter an additional 10s. per cwt. I want to see that cable. I want to know from whom it comes, and to whom it is directed. We have had already too much unbusiness-like management of the affairs of the country. We have had wretched alleged agreements with regard to the sale of wool and wheat, and we now have the same vague kind of .thing brought before the House, and are asked to approve of a measure, in the absence of any definite information. Surely the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has heard of this cable. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** can always get a cable when he wants one. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I know that in that' respect the Prime Minister ils an expert, but I do not place the Minister for Trade and Customs om the same level. If some honorable member has received a cablegram, will he not be good enough to produce it for our information? Is it in the possession of some member of the Country party? Will the Country party be good enough to tell us from whom it comes? Later on, we shall be told about the cablegram, and a wrangle will take place as to the distribution of the money. Since the Minister is prepared to go so far as to tell us that there are some negotiations proceeding with the Imperial authorities with regard to a modification of the agreement, would it not be as well to stay his hand until the completion of those negotiations' {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No, it would make no difference. The Bill will apply to the agreement, whether it is altered or not. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I do not think it will make any difference, since the Bill has nothing whatever to do with the agreement. The word " agreement," which appears in it, is only a piece of camouflage. What this Bill is intended to do is to force the producers of butter to export their produce through a certain channel, whether they like it or not. It matters not what the agreement is. Why do not honorable members of the Corner party admit that that is so? This is simply a proposal to give the Minister power to prohibit the export of butter. During the course of the debate we have heard some very cheap criticism of the Labour party. Having regard to the suggestions that have been made with respect to the commandeering of butter in Queensland while I held office as Premier of that State, I should like to remind the House that when the Queensland Government took control of the butter that was in cool storage there the Government itself exported it, sold it to Great Britain, and handed back to the producers the surplus that was realized. The producers received some tens of thousands of pounds. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The whole of the surplus? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- The whole of it. They received some tens of thousands of pounds, and I say without fear of contradiction that the butter which was then sold in London, by the Queensland Government, on behalf of the primary producers of that State, realized a higher price than that which was sold by the Commonwealth. As a proof of the confidence of the primary producers of Queensland in thatGovernment, and particularly of the confidence of the butter-producing districts, I may say that when, subsequent to that transaction, we faced the electors, in March, 1918, we increased our numbers. When I resigned the Premiership of Queensland the State Government was supported by a majority of the primary producing constituencies. It was supported by all the sugar-producing constituencies with one exception, and by a majority of the dairy farming districts. The honorable member for Wide Bay **(Mr. Corser)** knows that that is so. He knows, also, that my statement with regard to the export of butter by the Queensland Government is true. How is it that honorable members will deliberately make misstatements in regard to these matters? The honorable member for Robertson **(Mr. Fleming)** said that some of his acquaintances ran away fromQueensland {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- The honorable member does not say that that is a misstatement ? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I ask the honorable member to give the names of his friends who ran away from Queensland. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- I can give them to the honorable member privately. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- The honorable member, in view of the public statement made by him, ought to give them publicly. The population of Queensland has increased to the extent of 40,000 or 50,000 since Labour has held office there. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- Did the honorable member expect these people to remain in Queensland when his Government took their meat from them? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I am very glad that that interjection has been made, since I desire to refer very briefly to the Labour party's policy in respect of primary products for local consumption and the exportable surplus. The Labour party has always stood for giving the primary producer a fair return for his products. They stand for giving him a price for his products that is based upon the cost of production plus a reasonable profit. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- How are you going to arrive at what is a fair return? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- Just as we arrive at what is a fair thing in respect to all other matters. This is from the official policy decla- ration of the Labour party at the last Federal election - >The situation in Australia to-day demands a broad, virile policy of development. Production must be increased. Our primary and secondary industries must be encouraged and placed upon a proper footing. In- this way only can Australia become great and selfcontained and take her place among the nations of the world. We shall stimulate production, and with that object in view we shall guarantee to the producer a return which will secure to him a price for his products that will cover the cost of production and allow a reasonable margin of profit. The Labour party has never stood for anything else. If the policy of the Federal Labour party -were carried out as the State Labour party's policy is carried out in Queensland the primary producer -would receive a better price for his products, and the consumer would get his products at a more reasonable rate. The honorable member for Robertson made an interjection with regard to meat. If the exporters of meat were given the full world's parity for the exportable surplus, then, even allowing for the price which was. paid to the meat -companies of Queensland for meat for local consumption, there would be a better return to the producers of meat, and the local consumers would be provided with meat at more' reasonable rates. I entirely agree with the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** that the High Commissioner's office should be used in the interests of the primary producers of Australia. {: .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Hon J M Chanter: -- Order! That matter is outside the amendment. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I think I shall be. able to show you, sir, that it is not. The amendment proposes that the Bill shall be withdrawn and its provisions recast, so that the primary producers shall not get less than the world's parity for their exportable surplus. I want to show the workability of that amendment. If the High Commissioner's office were used as it ought to be, this would become a really workable provision. I do not wish to refer to the matter except to show that the High Commissioner's office could be so used as to insure our primary producers receiving the world's parity for their exportable surpluses. This is no new idea so far as the Labour party is concerned. The Labour party has always expressed the same view. Let me read to the House this further official (pronouncement on the part of the Labour party to the people of Australia. - a pronouncement made long beore the introduction of this Bill - >We shall take steps to provide oversea world markets for the sale of exportable surpluses. The machinery of the High Commissioner's office in London will be used for giving direct effect to this policy. We shall extend our operations to other countries, including the United States of America. The functions of the Commonwealth Bank will be extended to provide for a liberal system of rural credits. That shows, whatever honorable members opposite may say, that we have a really practical, well-thought-out, business policy for the primary producers of this country, and not some mere haphazard proposal such as that now thrown on the table of the House, with the result that we find members of the Corner party trying to excuse their votes. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- How does the honorable member reconcile the amendment, which provides that the butter producers shall obtain the world's parity for their exportable surplus - and, therefore, all the profit that can possibly be obtained - with the proposal in the Labour party's programme that they shall be allowed a reasonable profit? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- The right honorable gentleman could not have been listening attentively, because I have already pointed out that this party stands for the local consumer, in a country which produces large quantities.' of a staple commodity for the people, receiving the product at a reasonable price. I defined a reasonable price as one based on the cost of production, plus a reasonable profit, and stated that, in connexion with any exportable surplus, the producers are entitled to the world's parity. That is what this amendment stands for, and that is the Labour policy as I administered it when Premier of Queensland. I do not intend to delay the House any longer; but I trust honorable members will think very carefully before they cast their votes in opposition to the reasonable amendment moved and so ably explained by the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney).** No harm will be done in adopting the amendment, and if our friends in the Ministerial Corner are really in favour of giving the producers the world's parity for their exportable surplus, this is their opportunity to do it. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- We have been thinking of that for the past six months, and the honorable member has been thinking of it for only the past six hours. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- Perhaps I could do in six hours what the honorable member would take six months to do. If it is gentlemen of the calibre of the honorable member who has just interjected who have been making agreements of this character, I can quite understand the statement made by the honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** that the dairy farmers may yet regret the action that has been taken. Question - That the words proposed to be omitted stand as printed - put. The House divided. AYES: 32 NOES: 12 Majority . . . . 20 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. {: #subdebate-23-0-s21 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- It is. not my intention to delay the House for any time, as many of the matters to which reference has been made can be fully dealt with when the Bill is in Committee. During the debate, the question has been frequently asked : What is the object of the Bill? There is an agreement, the general terms. of which I gave in my second-reading speech, although I did not read the whole document to the House. Three-fourths of the criticisms that have been directed against the measure have been more or less irrelevant, as they had nothing whatever to do with the Bill. I am at a loss to know what to say under the circumstances, because I presume that, notwithstanding the fact that 1 gave the House the whole of the information, we shall have the same repetition when the Bill is in Committee, and I shall again be asked why it was necessary to introduce legislation on these lines. The Bill has been introduced, as I have already stated, because the direct representatives of the producers elected by their organizations in exactly the same way as union representatives are elected, decided the procedure that has been adopted. The representatives of the primary producers have agreed to sell to the British Government our exportable surplus of butter, but though they have sold it, they do not own it; they have no legal title; and, as an arrangement has been entered into to sell the exportable surplus, there must be some means of controlling it after it is sold. The understanding at the conference, and which I have already mentioned to honorable members, wasthat it was for the representatives attending to say whether a contract should be entered into, and, if so, on what terms the surplus was to be handled. It was clearly stated that the Government did not want to have anything to do with the matter; but the representatives of the producers were informed that, if they decided to sell their surplus under a contract to he entered into, the Government would do whatever was necessary to support them. Mr.Mahony. - Would not the agreement he sufficient to do that? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have already shown that it would be impossible to have pro- per control, and to carry out the contract, without legislation similar to this. The dairy farmer, as every one knows, needs financing, and he usually requires his cheque monthly. The honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony)** referred to the producers being kept waiting for twelve months for their money, but that is absurd rubbish. The moment the butter comes under the control of the committee, and is made available for export, arrangements are made for the Commonwealth Bank to make an advance to the producer. He has not to wait even fourteen days. It is the British Government which is allowed fourteen days' grace, and, if the money is not forthcoming within that time, under the terms of' the agreement interest at the rate of 6 per cent, is charged. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- Why did not the Minister make that explanation before? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -I covered the whole ground, and it is more than likely that at the time I was submitting the information to the House honorable members were not listening. When it was decided that.it would be in the interests of the party to make a political flutter on this question, honorable members opposite endeavoured to do so, and took the opportunity of speaking to the electors instead of discussing the Bill. The honorable member for Eden-Monaro **(Mr. Austin Chapman)** raised the point as to what will be done with the additional money in the event of the agreement being modified. In such circumstances the British Government will pay the additional money to the Dairy Produce Pool Committee! and the Committee, knowing that the Government intend to pay an additional sum, will, instead of advancing 240s. per cwt., less actual storage charges, as is always done in handling butter for export, will advance up to 250s. per cwt. The Government, as such, will not handle sixpence of this money. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- What is the amount stated in the cable? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have not seen the cable. All I know is what has appeared in the press, namely, that it is possible that the British Government may increase the price; beyond that I know' nothing. In any case, the Australian producer, because of the manner in which this transaction has been operated from the beginning, must get every penny that is received. The debate has made it obvious that what honorable members opposite desire, though not one of them had the courage to say so directly, is a low price for butter in Australia, and a big price for butter overseas. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- I say that. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am glad to hear one honorable member admit it. When I asked the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney)** the question, he was not game to answer it. It did not suit him to do so. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I. told you that it did not touch the question. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Honorable members opposite want to have butter sold in Australia at the lowest price possible, but do not care what the world pays for it. In an average year, three-fourths of our butter is consumed in Australia, and onefourth is exported. Under these circumstances is it any wonder that neither the members of the Corner party nor those of the Nationalist party who' represent the primary producers will trust the Labour party in this matter ? Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee :* Clause 1 - >This Act may lie cited as the Butter Agreement Act 1920. {: #subdebate-23-0-s22 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley .- I move - >That the following words be added - " and shall not become operative unless and until the said agreement and proposal to give the GovernorGeneral power to prohibit the exportation from the Commonwealth of the exportable surplus of butter has been referred to the butter producers for their expression of opinion thereon." I want to take the earliest opportunity of having a vote recorded on this proposal. {: #subdebate-23-0-s23 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES -- The amendment is not applicable to the clause, which deals only with the short title of the Bill. I suggest that the honorable member should embody his proposal in a new clause. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Then it cannot be dealt with until the clauses of the Bill have been considered? {: #subdebate-23-0-s24 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- That is so. Clause agreed to. Clause 2 - >The Governor-General may by proclamation prohibit the exportation from the Commonwealth of any butter produced in Australia on or after the first day of August, One thousand nine hundred and twenty and on or before the thirty-first day of March. One thousand nine hundred and twenty-one, unless the Minister for Trade and Customs is satisfied that the butter is being exported by or with the consent of the Commonwealth Dairy Produce Pool Committee constituted in accordance with the regulations. {: #subdebate-23-0-s25 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- This is the main clause of the Bill. ' It provides that the Minister may prohibit the exportation of butter through any other channel than the Dairy Produce Pool. As I said on tha second reading, while we are desirous that the producer shall obtain a fair pricefor the butter sold in Australia., we have to study also the interests of the consumer, and to do what is right between the parties. It is apparent that under the clause as it stands it would be possible to create a local scarcity of butter. The Dairy Produce Pool could regulate stocks, whether there was an abundant supply or not, by putting butter into cold storage, and arranging for steamers to export it, so that there would be only a limited supply for the local market, and could thus make the price of butter to the Australian consumer as high as that at which it is to be sold in Great Britain. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- It could make it higher. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- At any rate, it might not be less. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- Is not that in practice what the coal vendor does? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- If the honorable member refers to the combination of the proprietors, I have always said that that is wrong. While it is necessary to encourage the exportation of our surplus products, we should prevent manipulation at the expense of the local consumer. {: .speaker-KAY} ##### Mr Gibson: -- How would you do that? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I intend to move an amendment which would, I think, effect that. My only desire is to do justice between the consumer and the producer. The producer should get a fair price for his butter, and a better price than he has been getting in the past, because the cost of everything has gone up. He should be placed in as good a position as he occupied prior to the war. But we shall permit an injustice to our own people if we allow supplies to be so regulated by the Pool that the local price of butter can be increased. That the public may have confidence in the Pool, and know that its interests are being looked after, and so that if anything is wrong there may be a voice to bring it under the notice of the public, I move - >That the following words be added : - " provided that the consumer shall have representation on such Committee." Why should there be any objection to the appointment of some person to look after the interests of the consumers direct ? The Minister **(Mr. Greene)** says he is prepared to look after the*? interests, but he has more than enough to do in his Department and cannot hope to attend the meetings of the Pool. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- How many representatives does the honorable member suggest ? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I would be satisfied if we had one representative who vould have the right, as a member, to attend the meetings and see that fair play was given the consumer. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Does the honorable member want the price regulated? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- If this Bill is passed the price will be regulated. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- The honorable member does not fear that the price for local consumption will be above the world's parity ? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I am afraid it may be. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- We want world's parity for home consumption. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- If the public knew that they were directly represented on the Pool they would not worry about price. They would know that they would get a fair deal, while, at the same time, the producer was being rightly safe-guarded. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Would the honorable member be satisfied if the Government assured him that the price of butter for home consumption would not be above London parity or the price which we would be obtaining overseas under this agreement ? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- That involves the very point which I am endeavouring to stress. I am trying to show that, as an outcome of the passage of this Bill, the price of butter will be practically fixed throughout Australia; and I am now asked by the honorable member for Echuca **(Mr. Hill)** if I would favour that. I hold that if the producer can secure a return, adequate to compensate him, on the basis of the retail price of1s. 6d., then the consumer should not be forced to pay 2s.1d. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- For the past three or four months butter has been sold in Victoria at1s. 4d. per, lb. below actualcost of production. We want to make up some of that loss. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Undoubtedly the dairy farmer has undergone a period of trial; and in New South Wales, probably, his troubles have beenmore severely accentuated than in this State, chiefly owing to drought conditions. But the drought did not affect the whole of New South Wales, and it should be remembered also" that there are periods of the year when the dairy farmer can produce butter in abundance. Dr.Earle Page. - It will take the whole of this year to pick up last year's losses. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I am not advocating that fair compensation should not be given the producer; but there are other interests also to be considered. So far as compensation is concerned, I would favour the Bill being so framed as to provide for the compensation of those who may suffer loss through drought and kindred causes. If this Bill is to establish a co-operative concern it should provide means by which the Pool could compensate those who suffer loss owing to adverse seasonal conditions. At present, however, I desire first to insure protection for the consumer. {: #subdebate-23-0-s26 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The amendment should commend itself to honorablemembers. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Here is a change of front. The honorable member was jeering last night when I proposed a somewhat similar amendment. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I do not wish to. remind the honorablemember that what he said last evening was, in effect, thathe had not seen the agreement and was not concerned about it. In other words, he was going to vote blindly, as he always does. The amendment suggests a natural alliance between the producer and consumer. The alliance which the Government seeks to bring about by way of the agreement, and at which the so-called Country party connives, is an unnatural alliance between the producer and the middleman. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- The honorable member knows that that is not right. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- It is right. I feel inclined to ask the honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. Charlton)** to agree to the addition of words to his amendment to provide for the elimination of the middleman. I repudiate the statement of the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** that the Labour party stands for high prices overseas and low prices here. The Treasurer himself has repeated that statement. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Many of your own side to-night have said so. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- That is not so; but, whether it be said from this or the other side, it only shows that those who say it do not understand the Labour platform. No amount of quibbling by the Treasurer or the Minister can. alter the terms of our manifesto, which I hold in my hand, and which is the final word on the matter. I am quite sure that the Treasurer and the Minister for Trade and Customs, when they are in the back country, always misrepresent what we stand for, but herewe cannot allow them to do so. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I always quote you as saying you will allowthe producer a fair profit, and that means that you will fix the profit. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I shall read the manifesto which the Treasurer does not understand; but which he is so good at misrepresenting. {: #subdebate-23-0-s27 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter: -- This discussion is out of order on both sides. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I wish to quote the manifesto in repudiation of the statement made by the Treasurer and the Minister. The words are "We shall stimulate production- {: #subdebate-23-0-s28 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- "And shall grant to the producer- {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Is the honorable member not inclined to obey the Chair? I have called the honorable member to order, but he insists on reading matter which is not admissible. He must confine himself to the amendment. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- As I understand the amendment, it is proposed to give representation to the consumer. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is going into a different matter altogether! {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- It is in the interest of the consumer to show that the Minister's statement in regard to our policy as it affects the consumer is not a fair one. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The Minister has made no such statement in Committee. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Even so, we are dealing with themattter from the point of view of the consumer, and I wish to show where this party stands in the consumer's interest. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I again ask the honorable member to confine himself to the amendment. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Do you rule that I am not in order in discussing the consumer's point of view? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I make no such ruling. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Then I presume that I shall be allowed to say what I believe in regard to the consumer's point of view, and what I do believe is contained in our manifesto, which says- {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order! I have twice asked the honorable member not to pursue that course. The manifesto is outside the amendment before the Chair. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Then I am not allowed to speak about the consumer's point of view? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Whatever the policy of a party may be outside the House has nothing to do with the amendment. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I wish to express my view, which is precisely the view expressed in the party's platform. Am I allowed to say, without quoting the words of the platform, that as' a party, we propose to guarantee to the producer, in regard to the sale of his produce both overseas and here, a reasonable return based upon the cost of production ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I again ask the honorable member to confine himself to the amendment, and the question whether the consumer is to have representation. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I am speaking from the consumer's point of view. The Treasurer and the Minister are grossly misrepresenting what we stand for as a party when they say that we are in favour of a high price overseas and a low one here. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member for South Sydney **(Mr. Riley)** says so, anyhow. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I do not care if a thousand Rileys say so; it does not affect our platform,but only shows that those who say it do not understand that platform'. The policy of the party represents a natural alliance between the producer and the consumer. We have always stood for the principle of bringing the producer and the consumer together, and entirely cutting out the enemy of both, the middleman. There has been a vote registered to-night, and as a result it will go forth to the people that the particular party that came to this House- {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is not in order in reflecting on a vote given in the House or in Committee. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- All right. Something has happened in the House, and, as a result, it will be known to the people and the country in the future that a particular party - the socalled Country party - that came into the. House pledged to wipe out the middleman, has voted to retain him. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If the honorable member does not obey the Chair, I shall order him to discontinue his speech. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- It is hard to obey the Chair with the shackles you are putting on me. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Will the honorable member confine himself to the amendment ? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- When the amendment of the honorable member for Hunter has been carried, I shall propose an amendment to eliminate the middlemen. {: #subdebate-23-0-s29 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I do not propose to accept the amendment, and for a very simple reason. There are now on the committee three direct representatives of the consumer. One is **Mr. Hugh** Sinclair, and he is a good representative of the consumer. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Surely you do not say that **Mr. Sinclair** represents the consumer ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Certainly. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- He is one of the chief exponents of the dairying industry. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- But he is a consumer. He does not now represent the dairying industry, but he is a man who understands something' about the industry. Then there is the Commonwealth Dairy Expert, **Mr. O'Callaghan,** a perfectly unbiased man, who has orders that if I am not present at a meeting of the committee he must be. If there is anything he considers it necessary to bring under my attention, in the interest of the public, he has orders to do so. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- If you rely on **Mr. Sinclair,** the public will have a bad deal. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not relying on **Mr. Sinclair,** but I have every confidence in him; and **Mr. O'Callaghan** is a Government officer intimately acquainted with all the ramifications of the trade. If we picked up " the man in the street," and put him on this committee, it would take him six months before he knew what the members were talking about when they wore' dealing with the various ramifications of the industry. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- The ramifications of milking a cow ! {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The committee discuss intimate trading matters, which require a good deal of training to understand. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Is not any sane man capable of discussing the question of storing butter in cool storage? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I come now to the question of storing butter. This is one of the most difficult questions which has to be dealt with. Its settlement requires a most intimate knowledge of the trade and a very complete survey of the position in the country, so that, unless a man has had a lifelong experience of the business, he does not know when he should start to store. Even then the best judges sometimes go wrong. Let me give the Committee just two instances of what I mean. The year before last, the committee decided that it was desirable to start storing operations very early. Consequently, they stored a lot of butter; but of the 30,000 odd cases which were stored in Victoria it was not found necessary to use one. We had a surplus of butter that year in this State. There is such a tremendous difference between the seasons that it is a most difficult thing to determine when the storing of butter should be commenced. It is the one thing above all others that the man in the street cannot give any information about. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Does the Minister say that when there is an abundant supply of butter, and the man in the street is present at the meetings of the committee, and hears it making arrangements for storing that commodity, he has not sufficient intelligence to know whether the adoption of that course is right or wrong? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Nobody can tell what the season is going to be. To-day we may have an abundant supply of butter. But does the honorable member suggest that he can tell exactly the period when we should start to store it ? Butterdeteriorates with storage, no matterwhat the conditions of that storage may be. If we store butter for six months before we require to use it- {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Under this agreed ment, would the suppliers lose by the adoption of that course? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Unquestionably, they would. . . {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- I do not think so. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have no desire to occupytimeunnecessarily. But let me explain why the producer wouldlose whilst the consumer would not gain anything. The price of butter' depends upon its quality. The butter may be put in cold storage at 92 points. If it is stored at less than that there is not the faintest chance of it coming out in the bestpossible condition. But, instead of it coming out at 90 points, it would probably come out at 84. We shouldthen have to put that butter into the Imperial Pool, and, instead of getting for it2s.more than the 240s. per . cwt., which is set out in the agreement, we should get 6s. less. The butter would be of such low grade that it would be idle to put it upon the local market. What is more, the six months' storage would make such a tremendous addition to the price of it that the consumerwould not benefit in the slightest degree, because interest would have to be paid upon the butter for six months, plus the storage charges. That means that it would require to command such a price that the consumer would not look at it. Now the aim of the men who are associated with the. butter industry of this country is not to embarrass theirown business. It is to their interest to see that local requirements are fully met. After a close association with this trade, extending over a number of years, I say that the one thing to which co-operative societies have devoted more attention than any other is the arrangement of their storage in such a way as to Insure that they will have a sufficient supply of butter during the winter months to meet the' demands of their consumers. It does not suit them to run out of butter. They do not want the proprietary men to come in with stored butter and thus to secure their customers during the winter months. As the co-operative interests upon this Pool more than counterbalance the proprietary interests upon it, I am satisfied that it will follow the policy which has been followed for years by insuring that the consumer shall be fully protected. {: #subdebate-23-0-s30 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
South Sydney -7].- We have heard a good deal from the honorable member for Wilmot **(Mr. Atkinson)** in regard to an agreement- {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- The honorable member did not hear, because he would not listen. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- We have heard a good deal about cheap bread and cheap butter. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Is the Treasurer against cheap bread and cheap butter? Nobody disputes the statement which has been made by the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene).** But surely tho Government can appoint a man of sufficient ability to look after the interests of the consumer. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We have appointed **Mr. Hugh** Sinclair. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- He is a man who is interested in the butter trade. How can he be an independent man? {: .speaker-JOG} ##### Mr Bayley: -- We have to go to the trade to secure a man who possesses the requisite qualifications. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- I know that the Minister for Trade and Customs has not time to watch over the export of butter. Why, then, do not the Government appoint a qualified man to 'look after the interests of the public? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We cannot get a better man for that purpose than **Mr. O'** Callaghan. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- He is only one member of the committee. He is not there tj re port upon the export of butter. He is there in the capacity of an expert upon the quality of butter. He is a most capable man. But we require upon the committee a representative of the consumer. No doubt there has been a lot of grumbling at various times about the price of butter in Australia. Sometimes when there has been an alleged scarcity of that commodity in Sydney the secretary of the cold storage depot there has informed me that the place was full of butter. Of course, the object of creating an artificial scarcity is to put up the price. Under this agreement no man will be able to sell butter for export, except through the Pool. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member read in the press to-day that a minimum price is asked for coal, and a minimum wage for the worker; why should not the farmer also get a minimum wage? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- I do not say that he should not, but there is a danger of gambling in butter. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Every time there has been a rise in the price since the Pool has taken control the Pool has known the whereabouts of every box of butter, and has always levied on the holders the additional price, and placed the money in the Pool. . {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- If the Minister knows where every box of butter is, and there is more butter in Queensland than car be consumed in that State, why is New South Wales short of butter? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Federal control ceased and the price rose to 240s. for export. The New South Wales Government would not increase the price for local consumption, and no butter was sent from Queensland. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Under this arrangement will the Government have control of local consumption ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- Then the Pool Committee will be able to export all the butter they choose, and there is no power in this Bill to compel them to retain sufficient for local requirements? {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Would the honorable member like to have representatives of the public on the labour tribunals? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- On those Tribunals labour and capital are represented, and the judge is an impartial person, who decides between the parties, and thereby represents the interests of the public. Under this arrangement, however, thejudges are to be the butter producers. It is a one-sided arrangement, and the Government would do well to appoint a man to look after the interests of the Government and the consumer, and prevent the country being depleted of butter supplies in order to get high prices abroad. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- How could the representatives of the public sway the committee to do this or that, when it will have the control of all the butter supplies '( {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- We know that the average weekly consumption of butter is ½-1b. per head of the population. We are, therefore, able to calculate how much butter is required per week, and it would be easy tokeep a supply for local consumption by means of cold storage. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- But the producers cannot be made to supply the butter if they arenot willing to do so. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- The time has arrived for preventing any combination from manipulating the food supplies of the people. The amendment is fair and reasonable; it will improve the Bill, and give confidence to the public. {: #subdebate-23-0-s31 .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN:
West Sydney .- I support the amendment, and I am surprised that the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** does not see the reasonableness of it. It is obvious that its purpose is to secure that the consumer shall be represented on the Pool. The Minister, when speaking on the second reading, referred to **Mr. Sinclair** ashavingone to London as one of the delegates to represent the producers. Now he tells us that the same gentleman is to represent the consumers. It is difficult to know where the Minister stands. The Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** accused honorable members on this side of advocating low and cheap prices for the consumer. I do not like those terms, and, after all, it is by the use of misleading terms that a good deal of propaganda against the policy of the Labour party is carried on. As a student, I was taught that one should speak not only to be understood, but so that he cannot be misunderstood. I can quite understand what an honorable member, speaking from this side of the House, means when he refers to low prices, and what a Ministerial member means when he uses the same term. It is a term that can be understood, but it can also be misunderstood, or if it is not misunderstood, it can be misrepresented. The policy of the Labour party is founded upon the emancipation of human labour from all kinds of exploitation. If the producer has to sell his commodity at less than the cost of production, his labour is being exploited. No member on this side of the House advocates that. We stand for reasonable prices, meaning thereby prices which will give the producer a reasonable return for his labour. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- What is a reasonable return ? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- We all understand what that means. The producer must be recouped the cost of production, plus a reasonable profit. I rose to make our position clear, and to draw attention in *Hansard* to the tactics honorable members oppositeuse in order to furnish ground upon which they may subsequently misrepresent the Labour party. They do not misunderstand us, but they wish to lay the foundation of subsequent misrepresentation . Question - That the words proposed to be added be so added - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 14 NOES: 29 Majority ... .... 15 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Clause 3 agreed to. Clause 4 - >The Governor-General may make regulations, not inconsistent with this Act, for carrying out or giving effect to this Act, and in particular for prescribing the constitution of the Commonwealth Dairy Produce Pool Committee, and the method of election or appointment and tenure of the members thereof. Amendment (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to- >That the words " and powers " be inserted after the word " constitution," line 4. Clause, as amended, agreed to. {: #debate-23-s0 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley .- I move - >That the following new clause be added: - "This Act shall not become operative unless and until the said agreement and proposal to give the Governor-General power to prohibit the exportation from the Commonwealth of the exportable surplus of butter has been referred to the butter producers for their expression of opinion thereon." I want to say briefly that my impression is that the man who actually works on the dairy farm has not been consulted in this matter. Other people have manipulated things in such a way that they have acted as delegates and decided the terms of the agreement In order to make it absolutely certain that the primary producers themselves approve of the agreement and the Bill it is necessary that such a clause as I have moved should be inserted. {: #debate-23-s1 .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr LAVELLE:
Calare .- I have much pleasure in seconding and supporting the very reasonable amendment proposed by the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony).** I think that every member of the Committee is bound to support it. Honorable members should realize the necessity of giving the producers an effective voice in this matter. It has been said that the representatives of the primary producers agreed to this course of action, but I maintain that that is not the case. I know that there are two so-called farmers' organizations in Australia - the Primary Producers Union, which represents a very small section of the farmers, and the Farmers and Settlers Association, which represents a very small section of the farmers, a fairly large section of graziers, and a very large section of commission agents. I know, also, that 95 per cent. of the farmers of Australia do not belong to either of these organizations. That being so, no man can honestly say that the primary producers were represented at the conferences composed of delegates from either of the organizations referred to. In order to get the views of the men most concerned, we should , do what was done in connexion with the Wool Pool and the Wheat Pool. We should take a referendum, asking the butter producers to vote upon the agreement. If they uphold it there can be no cavil against it, but if they determine to turn the proposal down and to have nothing to do with this Bill, as I feel sure they will, the only thing to be done will be to drop the measure, and so prevent the robbery of the butter producers, which I feel sure will occur if it becomes law. {: #debate-23-s2 .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 .- I rise to oppose the amendment. For the past nine months we have had meeting after meeting on this question, and conferences have been held throughout the length and breadth of Australia. Delegates have attended those conferences from all parts of the Commonwealth. We had two or three such conferences here in Melbourne, and delegates were selected to represent the butter producers. Mr.Parker Moloney. - Who selected the delegates? {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- The cooperative companies, which have associated with them the whole of the butter producers of Australia. Those who are not in the co-operative companies are in the proprietary companies, and they made their selection. We met in conference, and I venture to say that no measure which has been passed through this House has received more careful consideration than has the Bill now before us. It has the backing of all honest, legitimate butter producers throughout the States. We have in Victoria an association, of which I am chairman, controlling eighty-three co-operative butter factories. We have a council of thirteen members the whole of whom, with one exception, unanimously favoured the scheme. We are acting in concert with the producers in the other States. I want tomake it abundantly clear that this measure is not being rushed through in the interestsof a few proprietary people in the industry. Honorable members of the Labour party have indulged in a lot of tomfoolery which will appear in *Hansard.* They wish to lead the public to believe that we have been the lambs of the proprietary people, and that members of the Country party have no knowledge of the butter industry. Before the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** could address the House on this question he had to make interjections and inquiries all round. He obtained information from the honorable member forWimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** and others, and then proceeded to make a magnificent speech concerning something of which he really knew nothing.. That is characteristic of honorable members opposite. I am familiar with everydetail of the dairying industry, and I am certain that with the exception of the honorable member for Hunter **(Mr. Charlton)** not one member of the Opposition has truly spoken his mind. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I rise to a point of order. The honorable member for Indi **(Mr. Robert Cook)** has practically accused every honorable member of this party of lying. He says that not one of us has truly spoken his mind.- I ask that that insulting observation be withdrawn, and that the honorable member apologize to the Committee for having made it. {: #debate-23-s3 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter: -- What I understood the honorable member to say was that not one honorable member of the Opposition who had dealt with this measure had truly spoken his mind. I do not take that to be a reflection. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- I consider that it is a most serious reflection on theOpposition. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- I personally think that it is a very offensive remark, and that being so, I hope, **Mr. Chairman,** that you will insist upon its withdrawal, and call upon the honorable member to apologize. {: #debate-23-s4 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The practice is that if an honorable member makes a personal remark of an offensive character he shall be called uponto withdraw it ; but in my opinion the remark in question was not intended to be offensive. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- In my opinion it was offensive. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Then I ask the honorable member to withdraw it. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- Seeing that the honorable member for Hume **(Mr. Parker Moloney)** has never committed any breach of the Standing Orders I withdraw the remark with pleasure. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- I object to the form of the withdrawal. I ask that the expression be withdrawn without any qualification. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- To what remark does the honorable member refer? {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- The remark that no one on this side has truly spoken his mind. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! I have already given any ruling as to that. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- I am not satisfied with the withdrawal. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! The honorable member has already exhausted his time limit. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- Then I am surprised at the manner in which the business of the Committee is carried on. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order! If the honorable member refuses to obey the ruling of the Chair I shall name him. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- You can name me if you like. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Then I name the honorable member for insulting the Chair. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- I am not going to withdraw. Motion (by **Sir Joseph** Cook) proposed - Thatthe honorable member for Calare **(Mr. Lavelle)** be suspended from the service of the Committee. {: .speaker-KZU} ##### Mr Lavelle: -- I am asking for a withdrawal. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- I will willingly withdraw the remark if that will please the honorable member. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order! The honorable member has nothing to withdraw. Question put. The Committee divided. AYES: 30 NOES: 10 Majority. 20 *In division:* AYES NOES *In the House :* {: #debate-23-s5 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES:
Hon. J. M. Chanter **- Mr. Speaker,** I have to report that the hon orable member for Calare **(Mr. Lavelle)** disregarded the ruling of the Chair, and the Committee has passed a resolution that he 'be suspended for the remainder of the sitting. Question - That the honorable member for Calare (Mr. Lavelle) be suspended from the service of the House - put. The House divided. AYES: 31 NOES: 11 Majority ... ... 20 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. The honorable member was, therefore, under standing order No. 59, suspended for the remainder of the day's sitting, and was conducted from the chamber by the Serjeant-at-Arms. *In Committee:* **Mr. PARKER** MOLONEY (Hume) [11 .521. - A statement was made by the honorable member for Indi **(Mr. Robert Cook),** which was a gross reflection on every member on this side of the chamber. He said that no person here truly spoke his mind,. {: #debate-23-s6 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN" (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES -- Attention was, drawn to the remark made before the honorable member for Calare **(Mr. Lavelle)** was suspended, and I dealt with it. {: #debate-23-s7 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Shall I be in order in moving that your ruling be dissented from? {: #debate-23-s8 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- It would be too late to do that now. Notice of a motion of dissent must he given at the time the ruling is made. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Then, on a point of order- {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- There can be no point of order now. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member wants to be put out, but we will not put 'him out. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I want to understand the Chairman's ruling. Surely he is not going to be stubborn in his attitude to the desires of honorable members when asked about a ruling. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I have twice informed the honorable member that the matter has been dealt with, and I believe that it is within his own knowledge that it has been dealt with. Had he desired to dissent from my ruling, he should have done so at the time it was given. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Then I will address myself to the amendment of the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony).** The honorable member for Indi made a certain statement regarding the attitude of honorable members on this side. All I have to say to him- {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- If he said it outside ! {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I do not think that he is prepared to follow the honorable member for Calare **(Mr. Lavelle),** and say it to him outside. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member must not continue these remarks. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have yet to learn that the honorable member for Indi entered this chamber with any reputation for the truth. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If the honorable member does not o'bey the Chair, I shall order him to discontinue his speech. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I would not be surprised at anything.; but I am' not going to give you the opportunity until I have 'had any say. I believe you would. The proposed new clause commends itself to me ; and I say it with an amount of truthfulness which is unknown to the honorable member for Indi. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- That remark . is disorderly, and I ask the honorable member to withdraw it. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I withdraw it. I do what he was not man enough to do. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If the honorable member will not obey the Chair, he must take the consequences. ' {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I with-, draw what I said. I wish to set a good example to the honorable member for Indi. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I hope that the honorable member will continue to set a good example. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I hope that we shall all do so; and that the Chair will set a good example to every one else. I cannot see how any ohe can object to the amendment. The honorable member for Indi has said that the whole of the primary producers of Australia have had an opportunity of ascertaining what is in the agreement, but I have not heard of one in my electorate who knows anything about it. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Are there any dairy farmers in your electorate? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- There are several. I do not think that they are represented On the Pool. The honorable member for Gwydir **(Mr. Cunningham)** read 'a letter from a representative dairy farmer in his electorate who said that he had never heard of the Pool. The facts show that what the honorable member for Indi has said is absolutely without foundation, and the honorable member's statement was characteristic of him. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- That remark is personally offensive, as the honorable member knows. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- I ask that it be withdrawn. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member will withdraw it. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Again I set the honorable member for Indi a good example. When he has been long enough here, he may -acquire some man.ners; at present he is devoid of them. I deny Ids 'statement that the contents of the agreement are known to the primary producers at large. Even if that were so, he would not be justified in voting against the proposed new clause. The electors of Indi will have to be told that he has slipped to a very great extent since he entered Parliament. If everything that he said were true, it would not afford him the excuse for which he is seeking to vote against the proposed new clause. Those associated with . him were loud in their clamour for the representation of the primary producers on the Wheat and Wool Pools. Yet now that the honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony)** has moved for the insertion of a new clause, which will give the dairy farmers full representation on the Dairy Produce Pool, this gentleman, who says that he was sent here to represent the primary producers, quibbles, and makes every excuse for voting against it. Those who understand the requirements of the primary producers cannot cavil at the clause, which I trust will be carried. The rank and file of the dairy farmers, through no fault of their own, know no more about this agreement than did the small wool-growers about the contract for the sale of our wool, for which the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** tried to shift his responsibility on to the shoulders of the ex-Treasurer **(Mr. Watt).** {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is going beyond the clause. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Is that out of order ? I can only account for your ruling by the lateness of the hour. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the honorable gentleman to withdraw that remark, and to apologize to the Committee for having made it. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I would not think it any wonder, because of the lateness of the hour, that any of us might be affected. I withdraw the remark so far as it applies to every one, including the Chairman. Those on this side have always stood for giving full and ample representation to the primary producers on all Pools dealing with the disposal of their produce. I hone that every honorable memberwill avail himself of the opportunity to discuss the amendment. I do not object to the action of the honorable member for Indi in discussing it; I only take exception to his insulting remark. I do not take exception to his showing where he really stands. The honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** has just mentioned; by way ofinterjection - and I quite agree with him - that this Bill affords an example of how the Government pools the primary producers. It is in order to see that the primary producer shall not be pooled that honorable members on this side are seeking the insertion of a clause which will provide some measure of protection to dairy farmers. Of course, it -is too much to expect the votes of honorable members of the so-called Country party; but, personally, I prefer their seats to their votes. {: #debate-23-s9 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter: -- Order! Will the honorable member please address himself to the matter before the Chair. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Honorable members in the corner will have to answer for their own misdeeds to their constituents. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order! As the honorable member defies the Chair, I order him to discontinue his speech. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Do you mean to say that you would put the gag on? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Will the honorable member please resumehis seat. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have finished all I desired to say. {: #debate-23-s10 .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa -- I support the amendment. Pri- mary producers should have an opportunity to express their views on this important matter. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Would the honorable member apply the same principle in connexion with the increase of members' salaries ? {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- That is both absurd and irrelevant. Here, the Government proposes to take away a product from its producer, and to say what price he shall receive for the greater part of it, but without giving him an opportunity to say whether or not he agrees. If the principle of first consulting the parties chiefly concerned had been adopted in respect of other Pools of Australia's primary products there would have been avoided confusion and' chaos resulting in loss to the people of Australia. Honorable members on this side deny that the producers have been consulted at all. The name of a **Mr. Sinclair** has been mentioned as that of a representative of the primary producer; but honorable members have also been told that he has now volunteered as a representative of the consumer. He must be a very adaptable individual 1 This whole scheme was inaugurated at a conference some of the members of which have had practically nothing to do with primary production, more than half of them being; in fact, middlemen. 1 have no doubt that we shall find storekeepers, bank managers, and others of that class as members of organizations' supposed to be representative of the primary producer. I admit that the producer himself is to a large extent to blame for this, but he very often lives away in the country, ten or fifteen miles from the town in which the organization has its centre. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- What organization is that? {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- There is the farmers and settlers organization, for one. Dr.Earle Page. - Has this a representative on the Pool? {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- Whether it has or not I am simply stating my opinion that the organization referred to by the Minister **(Mr. Greene),** and by some honorable members in the Government corner, is not really representative of the primary producer. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- Your opinion is quite contrary to fact. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- I throw the challenge out to the Government to put the question to a vote of the producers, for I feel sure that this proposal would be turned down. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- And delay the Bill. {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- Better delay the Bill if by doing so we can give satisfaction to those who are most concerned. I make a direct challenge to the Government, who say that this legislation is introduced with the concurrence of the primary producers and has their whole-hearted support. The amendment is based on the fact that the party to which I belong believes in the principle of allowing those most interested to have a say. {: .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr Gabb: -- I beg to draw attention to the state of the House. [Quorum formed.] {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- Let me refer to my own electorate, for instance. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- How many dairymen are there? {: .speaker-L07} ##### Mr LAZZARINI: -- I do not know, but a large proportion of my electors are engaged in primary production in the way of dairy farming, and I shall make it my duty to find out how many of them had any knowledge that the contract was to be made. Only recently I was amongst them, and nothing was said to convey the impression to me that this legislation was within their knowledge. As to the taunt of the honorable member for Cowper **(Dr. Earle Page),** the dairymen in my electorate may not be in business on a large scale, but they all depend on it for their living; and I am sure that if this contract or arrangement, with all the manipulation that is possible under it, will have the effect of depreciating their return in. any way, they will turn it down. No fair-minded person in the House, or out of it, can have any valid objection to the matter being referred to the primary producers themselves, who should be afforded an opportunity of saying whether the agreement entered into with the Imperial authorities is calculated to conserve their interests or otherwise. {: #debate-23-s11 .speaker-K0A} ##### Mr GABB:
Angas .- I also support the insertion of the proposed new -clause. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move - That the question he now put. Question - That the question be now put - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 30 NOES: 9 Majority . . . . 21 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the proposed new clause he agreed to - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 8 NOES: 30 Majority . . . . 22 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Proposed new clause negatived. Preamble agreed to. Title. {: #debate-23-s12 .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN:
West Sydney .- This is called " A Bill for, an Act relating to the Exportation of Butter from the Commonwealth," and the short title is "The Butter Agreement Act 1920.". That is a misnomer. It is highly desirable that Parliament should not give misleading titles to Bills. This is something more than a Bill relating to the exportation of butter from the Commonwealth. It refers also to the prohibition of the export of butter. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It refers to that and other things, amongst them the constitution of the Dairy Produce Pool Committee. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- That is notset out in the title, and the omission is an indication to me that the person responsible for the title wished to convey something to the public, particularly to the butter producers, which does not express the true intent and purpose of the Bill. I move- >That the words "prohibition of"- {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move - >That the, question be now put. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I have moved an amendment, and that is the question which must be put. {: #debate-23-s13 .speaker-KFC} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Fleming:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES -- The Minister had moved " That the question be now put " before the honorable member had moved his amendment. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- If that is your ruling, I shall move that it be disagreed to. {: #debate-23-s14 .speaker-10000} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: -- There can be no debate after a motion has been made " That the questionbe now put." Question- That the question be now put - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 28 NOES: 8 Majority . . . . 20 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Title agreed to. Bill reported with an amendment. Standing Orders suspended; report adopted. Bill read a third time. {: .page-start } page 3709 {:#debate-24} ### SEA CARRIAGE OF GOODS SELECT COMMITTEE **Mr. RICHARD** FOSTER presented the second interim report of the Sea Carriage of Goods Select Committee. Ordered to be printed. House adjourned at 12.47 a.m. (Friday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 19 August 1920, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1920/19200819_reps_8_92/>.