House of Representatives
7 July 1920

8th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 2550

QUESTION

NAURU ISLAND AGREEMENT

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to know if the Prime Minister has any information that he can give the House concerning the Nauru Island agreement, and the finalizing of such transactions as were reported in the press of this State yesterday?

Mr Hughes:

– What does the press say?

Mr MAKIN:

– This appeared in yesterday’s Argus -

Referring yesterday to the cable message published in the Argus, stating that the Commonwealth had paid part of Australia’s contribution to the purchase money under the Nauru agreement, the Acting Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) said that the Commonwealth had paid the full amount of its share.

I wish to know how much has been paid, and for how much we were involved under the agreement, and the advantages that Australia is to receive for the contribution that she has already made?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– All those things, and many more, the honorable gentleman will find set out in an admirable speech delivered by me in explaining the agreement to Parliament last year, and that speech I shall be glad to supplement later with another equally admirable should there have’ been any important omission.

page 2551

QUESTION

NAVAL POLLUTION OF PORT JACKSON

Mr MARKS:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister for the Navy if his attention has been drawn to the serious complaints of the yachting fraternity, and other persons who use the waters of Port Jackson, about the large amount of damage done to yachts, and the pollution of the foreshores of the harbor with quantities of oil and debris, consisting of broken cases, oars, boat hooks, and so on, surmised to have come from the ships of the Royal Australian Navy. Should this surmise be correct, will the honorable gentleman consider the possibility of collecting the bilge oil and debris in barges and taking it outside the Heads?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– ‘The matter was brought under my notice some time ago, when in Sydney, and I thank the honorable member for again calling my attention to it, because I had overlooked it. I shall have inquiries made, and, if our Navy is behaving in the manner complained of, we must try to do better.

page 2551

WOOL SALES : SKIN WOOL

Mr HAY:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Prime Minister in a position to make a statement to the House regarding the following cable message which has just come from London: -

page 2551

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA’S WOOL

Attitude of Mr. Hughes. “ climb-down “ alleged. (Herald Special Representative. )

London, 6th July

The authorities here consider that Mr. Hughes, the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, has climbed down by accepting the terms offered to him for the sale of Australian wool.

It is pointed out that between £16,000,000 and £17,000,000 is now available as Australia’s share of the profits from the sale of the wool in Great Britain; but it is stated that not a penny can be paid until Mr. Hughes accepts the accounts presented several months ago, and others sent to Australia since then. On this ‘ point the British Ministry remains adamant.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Has the honorable member much more to read?

Mr HAY:

– Not very much. This is very important -

Further payments will not be possible until sales are effected. The Government is likewise inclined -

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member will not be in order in reading the comments.

Mr HAY:

– Has the Prime Minister any statement to make concerning the cablegram ?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– I had not seen the message until the honorable member showed it to me. I notice that it was sent to the Herald from its special representative in London, which fact, in itself, I think, carries its answer. No doubt, parts of the cablegram are true, though what they are, beyond the date and the sender’s address, I am unable to say. I cannot say whether the British Ministry remains adamant, though I think that that would cause general surprise throughout the Empire. But, emphatically, it is not true that the attitude of the Government in regard to the payment of these moneys has changed. For the rest, the cablegram is not an accurate presentation of the facts. It does not, in any way, state the present position between the Government of the Commonwealth and the Government of Great Britain. In all matters relating to the payment of half profits, I have been acting with, and in accord with, the representatives of the pastoralists, whom I met as late as last Friday. They are entirely in agreement with my views, and authorized me to make certain representations to the British Government on their behalf; which I have done.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– May I ask the Prime Minister if, as announced in today’s papers, a definite basis for the conduct of the sale inside Australia of the coming wool clip has been arranged ? If so, does it cover the transition period between the 30th June and the opening of the new sale, affecting, in particular, any wool that may be gathered from the fellmongering or scouring of the skins of sheep slaughtered in Australia? Yesterday, fat sheep dropped 3s. in the market because the fellmongers had withdrawn from the purchase of skins. That is due to the auction sales of skins in both Melbourne and Sydney having been cancelled.

Mr HUGHES:

– The honorable member’s question divides itself naturally under several heads The first is as to whether arrangements have been made for the sale of the new clip. It is true, as stated in the press that as the result of a Conference held on Friday last between the representatives of the Woolgrowers and the Wool Brokers Association, I was authorized to make the announcement to the British Government and to the public that sales of the new clip would begin about the 1st October next. I am unable to answer offhand the other portion of the honorable member’s question. In part, it involves the point of what is and what is not included in the 1920-21 clip. Broadly, I may say that the same principle that governed the trade in pre-war days will decide that point now. All wool appraised up to the 30th June will, of course, fall automatically into the 1919-20 clip. All wool shorn before the 30th June, which was in bond or warehouse, or immediately available for shipment, will fall also into the 1919-20 clip. But wool, whether shorn before or after the 30th June, which was in bond or warehouse, but had not been appraised, and was not immediately available for shipment, will fall into the 1920-21 clip. That is the position as regards shorn wool, and the same broad principle would apply to skin wool. On the question of skin wool generally, as the fellmongers are to put their case before me, it is proper that I should defer any expression of opinion upon it until I have heard them.

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– Has the Prime Minister any information as to the truth of the statement that British manufacturers are selling Australian wool to former enemy subjects? Is there any embargo on the sale of Australian wool in London in those directions?

Mr HUGHES:

– I saw several references to this matter in the press last week. I think it was stated there that the British Government had sold about £4,000,000 worth of wool to Germany, but this was subsequently contradicted. It was then I think, stated that it was the British holders of wool who had sold the parcels to Germany. I am not in a position to speak as to the truth of either of those statements ; but, for the information of. the honorable member, the House, and the country, I may say that the Commonwealth Government, some months ago, took up the position that it did not consider that the British Government had a right to dispose of Australian wool other than by auction, except after consultation with the Commonwealth Government, who were the trustees for the growers, as to the price thereof. Honorable members will recollect that some 450,000 bales had been sold at issue prices, which might be £40, £50, £60, or £70 per bale less than the real value. Against the recurrence of this we protested, and the British Government admitted the correctness of the position we took up. I am ‘not in a position to say whether wool has been sold to Germany, either by the British Government or by private individuals.

page 2552

QUESTION

PRICE OF MUTTON

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a great shortage of sheep coming into the market for slaughtering purposes, and that on account of that circumstance the price of mutton has gone up ? Will he take steps to prevent the export of mutton now in cold storage, and of beef also, in the interests of the people of the Commonwealth ?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– Although the lot of the transgressor is hard, mine is much harder, because I am adjured by the honorable member for Wannon to do everything in my power to see that the producer gets the full value for his sheep, which obviously depends to a very large extent on whether the wool is to be put into the 1919-20 or 1920-21 clip; and at the same time I am urged by the honorable member for South Sydney to take such action as will insure cheap mutton to the public, at’ a time when the pastoralists are holding back their sheep. I am not able to answer the honorable member’s question off-hand. I do not know whether the high price of mutton is due in any respect to the export of mutton. I have no information to that effect. I should have thought that, when from 10.000,000 to 20,000,000 sheep had died through drought, and some through floods, that fact in itself would not be altogether a negligible factor in the increased price of mutton. I do not see any particular inducement being held out to the pastoralist to export mutton when the price for exportable mutton is at present certainly not more than half of what he can get here. I believe that in the sales last week lamb brought 9d. to 91/2d. per lb. on the hoof, whereas the price for lamb under the British contract is61/2d.

That being so, it would be far better for the .pastoralists to sell their sheep here than to export them. Why they should, export mutton at 6 Ja. per lb. when they can get 9d. per lb. for it here, I cannot understand. Every one, however, must have a fair chance to present his case. If the fellmongers are suffering from any grievance which is resulting in the shortening of hands, if in the absence of wool men are being put out of employment - I’ shall have to consider the question on its merits.

page 2553

QUESTION

WAR GRATUITY BONDS

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

– I am informed that large firms in Melbourne are cashing war gratuity bonds for holders who purchase about 30 per cent, worth of goods from them. I wish to know if that is legal; and, if it is, why small firms cannot do the same thing?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– I do not know whether the facts are as represented; but my recollection of the Act is that it does not permit such transactions. If the honorable gentleman will give me the names of any firms who are cashing the bonds, I shall be glad to look into the matter, with a view to protecting the soldiers; and if large firms have any privileges, I shall certainly see that these shall extend to small firms as well.

Mr BLUNDELL:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Acting Treasurer state whether the Government are cashing, or intend to cash, the war gratuity bonds of those of their employees who were members of the Australian Imperial Force?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member informed me that he waa going to ask this question to-day, and I have an answer for him. These bonds will be cashed, under instructions from the Treasury, by the Department, or branch of a Department to which the officer is attached. These instructions are in course of preparation, and will shortly be issued. A special form of application will be provided.

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Acting Treasurer state whether any steps have been taken in reference to the sale of war gratuity bonds to insurance companies? I understand that the insurance companies have been fixing a premium which it is impossible for the soldiers to pay, and that the men are anxious to learn what other steps are to be taken in the matter.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is to be regretted that the question is being brought up in this way. Already a great deal of unfair trafficking in these bonds is taking place, and I apprehend that it is the duty of the Government to try to stop it as f aT as possible.

Mr HECTOR Lamond:

– Why not let bonds be sold at the market price in the open market; then the men will not be robbed.

Mr Tudor:

– They are being robbed today. Some of the men are selling their bonds at 50 per cent, below their face value.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is evident that this is a very thorny subject. I hope honorable members will believe that the Treasury is trying to deal with it firmly and as equitably as possible. I can say no more.

page 2553

QUESTION

SPA CONFERENCE

Mr CUNNINGHAM:
GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether, in the absence of the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), the Government have made any arrangements for the representation of Australia at the Spa Conference?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– No arrangement has been, or can be made. ‘ The Spa Conference sits almost immediately.

page 2553

QUESTION

WHEAT POOL

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Prime Minister ask the Premiers of the wheat-growing States whether they will be prepared on behalf of their States to state definitely when they attend the adjourned Conference of Premiers whether they desire a Wheat Pool for the coming year so that the matter may be finally dealt with?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– I could ask them, but unless they were advised beforehand they could hardly commit themselves.

Mr Tudor:

– They have no authority to give an answer to such a question.

Mr HUGHES:

– The State Premiers arc meeting here to consider the definite questions of immigration, the Murray waters, uniform railway gauge, and one borrower and one tax-gatherer for Australia, which have been before them on many occasions, and twice in the present year. They have had an opportunity to discuss those matters with their respective Governments, and are coming here to give’ me answers to the proposals placed before them. Since the Conference meets on Friday next, it is perfectly clear that they could not discuss the question of the Wheat Pool beforehand and supply me with an answer, on that date. I am given to understand that some of the States are prepared to consider favorably the formation of a Wheat Pool, while others are not. Even if they were that would not clear up the matter, because the position created by the voluntary Pool and the Commonwealth’s guarantee in regard to all wheat has to be faced. I am unable to say how the Commonwealth is to deal with the subject matter for which that guarantee has been given, without machinery whereby that control can be exercised. That is the point that is worrying me. I said by way of answer to the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart) the other day, that the position has been complicated by the quite definite pledges given at the last general election that no one would be forced to come into the Pool. Those pledges, however, do not affect the States. The States themselves can act, and if they did the Commonwealth would consider itself quite free to act in conjunction with them. The position in regard to the voluntary Pool is not affected by the attitude taken up by the States’ in regard to wheat in their own territories.

Later:

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

– The

Prime Minister has missed the object of my question. My desire is that he will ask the Premiers at the adjourned Conference,or at the earliest possible moment, to state on behalf of the wheatgrowing States whether or not they desire the Pool.

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– I will ask them.

page 2554

QUESTION

KEROSENE AND BENZINE

Mr RILEY:

– In view of the great shortage in kerosene and benzine, has the Minister for Trade and Customs any statement to make as to the arrival of shipments that will be likely to relieve the pressure?

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have no information at the present moment, but if the honorable member will give notice of his question I will endeavour to obtain particulars for him.

page 2554

QUESTION

SMELTING AGREEMENT

Mr CONSIDINE:
BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Prime Minister yet in a position to’ supply me with an answer to a question that I asked him some months ago when he promised to furnish me with a reply as to whether he will lay on the table of the House a copy of the agreement made between the Broken Hill Mining Companies and the British Board of Trade or the Imperial authorities? Will the right honorable gentleman cause a copy of that agreement to be placed on the table?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– I was under the impression that, having made inquiries, I had replied to the honorable member that the terms of the agreement were not yet completed, and that, consequently, it could not be laid on the table. I shall ascertain whether I did give that reply, and shall also make further inquiries. If there is an agreement, I will endeavour to see that it is laid on the table. If there is not I will inform the honorable member.

page 2554

QUESTION

CASHING OF COMMONWEALTH NOTES

Mr WEST:

– I wish to ask the Minister in whose Department the matter lies what may, perhaps, be a legal question. It is related to the cashing of Commonwealth bank-notes. I wish to know whether, if a person tenders a Commonwealth bank-note to any bank he can demand cash for it? The reason I ask the question is that because last week one of the banks in Sydney refused to cash a Commonwealth bank-note.

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– I will answer the honorable member’s question. I happen to have at this stage of the month a note, and I find that there is printed upon it the statement -

The Treasurer of the Commonwealth of Australia promises to pay the bearer One pound in gold on demand at the Commonwealth Treasury at the Seat of Government.

The Seat of Government for the time being is here, and the bank to which the honorable member refers was quite in order in refusing to cash the note.

page 2555

QUESTION

WOOL VALUATION

Position of Wool Delated in Transit.

Mr LIVINGSTON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to know whether wool delayed in transit from the country, and not ready for shipment before June, is included in the new clip, or is valued under the old appraisement?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– Solomon is dead. I think his reputation would have suffered if he had been given a job like mine. In answer to the honorable member I have to say that the inclusion of the wool in the old or new clip would depend upon the circumstances. What was the position before the war? If a man commenced to shear at Cooper’s Creek at the end of May, and if the country were flooded, then under the conditions existing twenty years ago he could never have got that wool down to port in time for shipment on the 30th June. In that case it would always be treated as in the next year’s clip. I am not attempting to decide particular cases, but I am going to say that the principle that obtained before the war obtains now. It will not apply to a man who deliberately holds his wool back with a view to getting it into the new clip. The question was raised on Friday last, and I will say that if a man has bonafide been unable to get his wool down to port so that it might be available for shipment or appraisement, or to be placed in bond or warehouse by the 30th June, he is very properly entitled to have it considered as falling into the new clip. Whether the delay in the transit of the wool is due to drought or floods is not material. The question is whether the geographical, climatic, or other circumstances of this great country are such at any time as to prevent the grower getting his wool down in a certain time. If the grower is in that position the wool goes into the new clip.

page 2555

WORKING WEEK

Hours of Labour

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925

asked the

Prime Minister, upon notice -

In view of the fact that certain applications for the establishment of a forty-four hours week are before the Commonwealth Arbitration Court, will the Government consider the advisableness of a comprehensive consideration of this question by a competent special expert Commission?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– Yes; the matter is now receiving the attention of the Government.

page 2555

QUESTION

ARSENAL BUILDINGS, MARIBYRNONG

Exemption from Public Works Committee Act.

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that a notification was published in the Commonwealth Gazette No. 27 of 11th March, 1920, exempting from the operation of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1914 the proposed construction of certain buildings known as the Arsenal Research Department buildings at Maribyrnong, Victoria?
  2. Is it a fact that tenders have been invited for the erection of these buildings by notice published in the Commonwealth Gazette No. 51 of 10th June, 1920?
  3. Is the proposal under consideration to erect a further block of administrative buildings in connexion with the proposed Arsenal; and, if so, what is the estimated cost of this proposal?
  4. Is it a fact that the erection of these two blocks of buildings is likely to commit the Commonwealth to the location of the Commonwealth Arsenal at Maribyrnong, and involve the country in a very large expenditure, probably running into hundreds of thousands of pounds ?
  5. If so, is it the intention of the Government to refer this matter to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works before committing the Commonwealth to further expenditure in connexion with Arsenal matters?
Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: - 1, 2, and 3. Yes.

  1. The erection of these two blocks of buildings at Maribyrnong does not commit the Commonwealth to locating all Arsenal factories at Maribyrnong. The two blocks of buildings are being erected to house the Administrative Research and Inspection Staffs for Munitions Supply, and will not involve the country in a larger expenditure than the cost of the erection of the buildings, which is, approximately, £80,000, and the maintenance of nucleus staffs. The experience gained in the late war makes it imperative to strengthen this side of our Defence activities, and these branches of the Service are quite independent of the erection of further munition works.
  2. The Government intends to submit to

Parliament in the near future its proposal in connexion with additional Arsenal factories, and the intention of the Government is to refer the works to the Parliamentary Standing Committee.

page 2556

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Results of Examinations

Mr RILEY:
for Mr. Blakeley

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. How many clerical positions have been filled by those candidates who passed the Commonwealth Public Service clerical examination held on the 14th and 15th November, 1918, in New South Wales?
  2. How many still remain on the registered list for appointment?
  3. How many clerical examinations have been held since November, 1918, for persons outside the Service, and how many appointments have been made from such lists of successful candidates ?
  4. How many clerical examinations have been held for certain classes of officers within the Service since November, 1918, and how many appointments have been made from these lists?
  5. How many clerical examinations have been held for returned soldiers since November, 1918, and how many have been appointed to clerical positions from such lists?
  6. How many returned soldiers have been placed in permanent clerical positions exclusive of any examinations since November, 1918?
  7. Does the Government intend to appoint the remaining registered candidates who qualified in November, 1918, and whose appointments have been suspended, before the date of expiration, viz., 5th August, 1920?
  8. If not, will the Government extend the time for eligibility of appointment to all the remaining successful candidates, to give them an opportunity of appointment?
Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Five.
  2. Sixteen.
  3. One, held in conjunction with the intermediate examination of the Department of Public Instruction in1919. No appointments have been made.
  4. Three, to enable messengers in training and acting telegraphists to qualify for appointment as telegraphist or clerical assistant. Two appointments have been made.
  5. One, held on 30th June and 1st and 2nd July, the results of which are not yet available.
  6. Twenty-one. 7 and 8. The Acting Public Service Commissioner has extended the eligibility of successful candidates for a period of three months from 5th August, 1920. The matter of further extending their eligibility will then be again considered in the light of existing circumstances.

page 2556

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCE

Form of Discharge

Mr GREGORY:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether he will endeavour to obtain for all members who enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force, or for the parents of those who lost their lives, a discharge showing the theatre or theatres of war in which they had served, and any honours or promotions they may have won?

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows: -

It is not proposed to amend in the direction indicated by the honorable member the form of discharge from the Australian Imperial Force.

An officer is not issued with a certificate of discharge, but receives a form of commission showing date of appointment to commissioned rank.

Every member of the Australian Imperial Force is officially notified of all honours, awards, or “ mentions “ granted. In the case of those who have lost their lives, official notification is forwarded to the next of kin.

In addition to the notification issued by the Defence Department, the War Office, London, is issuing a certificate in respect of each mention in despatches. These certificates are prepared on parchment paper measuring 8½ by 7¼ inches. They bear the Royal Coat-of-Arms, and are signed, under command of His Majesty the King, by the Secretary of State for War. These certificates, which are quite suitable for framing, are being despatched as soon as received from the War Office.

It is anticipated that when clasps are available for the British War Medal, a clasp will be issued for each theatre of war in which the recipient of the medal served.

page 2556

QUESTION

ANZAC TWEED

Persons Entitled to Purchase

Mr LAZZARINI:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether it is necessary for returned soldiers to be members of the Sailors and Soldiers’ Imperial League of Australia before they can participate in the advantages connected with the purchase of Anzac tweed?

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows: -

As the honorable member mentions Anzac tweed, it is assumed that the hand-woven tweed made under the control of the Anzac Tweed Trust by returned soldiers is alluded to. This material, when available, is sup- plied to any tailor on application to the Secretary, Anzac Tweeds, 346 Collins-street, Melbourne.

Quite apart from Anzac tweed, material for civilian suits is being made at the Commonwealth Government Woollen Mills, North Geelong, for sale to returned sailors and soldiers only. The Returned Sailors and Soldiers’ Imperial League of Australia in the several States are the contractors for the distribution of this tweed. Priority of application is the governing factor in ascertaining the order in which demands are to be met, irrespective of whether or not the applicant is a member of the Returned Sailorsand Soldiers’ Imperial League of Australia.

page 2557

QUESTION

EMIGRATION OF RUSSIANS

Mr CONSIDINE:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether he will inform the House as to whether or not citizens of the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic now resident in the Commonwealth are free to depart from the Commonwealth?

Mr. POYNTON.So far as the Australian Government is concerned, there is nothing to prevent Russians from leaving Australia. The Home and Territories Department, or State Collectors of Customs on their behalf, will issue permits which will serve instead of passports as authority for them to leave Australia. No charge is made for these permits. It is understood, however, that shipping companies are reluctant to convey Russians to ports abroad unless they have definite assurances that Russians will be permitted to land at those ports.

page 2557

QUESTION

INDUSTRIAL CONFERENCE

Mr MAKIN:

asked the AttorneyGeneral, upon notice -

Whether the Government intends proceeding with the Industrial Conference concerning which Trades and Labour Councils have received invitations to be represented?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– Yes.

page 2557

QUESTION

COCKATOO ISLAND DOCKYARD

Mr MAHONY:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Are any alterations to be made in the control of the Naval Dockyards, Cockatoo Island?
  2. If so, will the Minister state the nature of such alterations?
Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The matter is now under consideration.

page 2557

QUESTION

TAXATION DEPARTMENT PROMOTIONS

Mr BURCHELL:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is a fact that two officers in the Taxation Department have recently been promoted with large increases in salary, viz., one from £336 per annum to £700 per annum, the other from £260 per annum to £750 per annum?
  2. If the foregoing is correct, what special claims had these officers?
  3. Were either, or both, of them returned soldiers?
  4. Did returned soldiers of the Taxation Department have an opportunity of applying for these positions?
  5. If not, why not?
Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No officer has been promoted in the Taxation Department from a salary of £336 per annum to £700 per annum, or from £260 per annum to £750 per annum.

page 2557

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND LIGHTHOUSES

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is a fact that prior to the outbreak of war Commander Brewis recommended that an additional thirty lights and three new lightships should be placed on the Queensland coast?
  2. If so, has any action been taken by the Government to give effect to Commander Brewis’ recommendations?
Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. The statement is approximately correct.
  2. The lighthouse service commenced in June, 1913, and, notwithstanding the war, has established eight additional aids to navigation in Queensland, and have effected improvements to existing lights, the gross total expenditure being over £100,000. In addition, a lightship has been built for Makara Shoal, and this will be established at the first opportunity.

page 2557

QUESTION

PASSPORT FEE

Mr CONSIDINE:

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

What fee or charge is made by the Commonwealth in connexion with the issuing of a passport to persons desirous of going abroad?

Mr POYNTON:
Minister for Home and Territories · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows : -

Ten shillings is charged for a passport indorsed for travel abroad. After two years a passport must be renewed. A fee of 2s. is charged for such renewal. A fee of 2s. is charged for indorsements for further travel.

page 2558

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Northern Territory - Correspondence relating to Report of Royal Commission.

Statistical Conference (British Empire) - Report and Resolutions accompanied by Explanatory Memorandum and Observations by the Commonwealth Statistician.

Ordered to be printed.

Papua -

Ordinance of 1919- No. 10-Deputy Judges (Appointment) .

Ordinances of 1920 -

No. 4. - Supplementary Appropriation 1918-19.

No. 5. - Supplementary Appropriation (No. 1) 1919-20.

Public Service Act - Appointments and Promotions -

H. G. Connell, Department of Works and Railways.

P. K. Steedman, Prime Minister’s Department.

page 2558

QUESTION

SECOND PEACE LOAN

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

(By leave.) - The war loan expenditure of the Commonwealth has practically absorbed the war loans already raised, and it becomes necessary to raise further money to meet expenditure in the financial year just beginning. The money will be used principally to pay for settling soldiers on the land, for the building of war service homes, for the repatriation of soldiers generally, and for certain small outstanding liabilities for carrying on the war. Inquiries have been made in London with a view to ascertaining whether a loan could be raised there. The information received from my late colleague before his unfortunate resignation, and since from other sources, shows that, owing to the very large investments in industrial and commercial ventures and other causes, the amount of money available has recently been considerably curtailed, and lenders are asking for such rates of interest as practically prohibit the Commonwealth going on the London market. The loan of £2,500,000 just put on the market in England by the New SouthWales Government at 61/2 per cent. at par was only applied for to the extent of441/2 per cent. by the public,551/2per cent. being left in the hands of the underwriters, while the rates being paid for high class British Treasury

Bills or loans in England are up to 7 per cent. A condition of affairs even more acute exists in America. I have heard on good authority that the New York financiers quoted recently a rate of71/2 per cent, to a Government with a term of fifteen years. It is very doubtful if money can be obtained in America at the present time on the highest class security for less than 8 per cent.

The Commonwealth Government, while realizing that in the circumstances it is necessary to reduce borrowing as far as possible, has certain definite obligations to the returned soldiers and in respect of the war which can be met out of loans only. The cost of land settlement of soldiers has been much greater than was anticipated, and, notwithstanding efforts to reduce the cost of this phase of repatriation work, heavy expenditure in this direction will continue for some considerable time. The cost of settling the soldiers varies greatly in the States, and my colleague is at present engaged with the State Lands Ministers in reviewing the whole question from this stand-point, and we are hopeful of securing some modification of these conditions. Present information indicates large expenditure on war service homes during this financial year.

Of the war gratuities, which amount to nearly £30,000,000, the Government has undertaken to pay special classes in cash, to meet which the banks have agreed to provide about £6,000,000 on the understanding that the Commonwealth will raise and repay the money at the earliest opportunity. In addition, the Government will redeem £10,000,000 of the war gratuity bonds before the end of this financial year. That sum must also be raised, unless the German war indemnity, which has been specially earmarked for the purpose, becomes available.

These obligations must be met, and the Government is, therefore, compelled to approach the Australian people with the view of raising a loan of £25,000,000. This loan it is proposed to call the “ Second Peace Loan.”

The nominal rate of interest will be 6 per cent. per annum, but a bonus to be given with the first interest payment will make the effective rate about £61s. per cent. per annum on the average for the whole period of the loan. The effective rate of the last loan was £5 6s. The rate of this loan is, therefore, roughly, 3/4 per cent. higher than the last. The principal will be repayable at par on 15th December, 1930. Subscriptions to the loan will close on 6th September next, and instalments will be payable as follows : - 10 per cent. to be lodged with application. 20 per cent. on 4th October, 1920. 20 per cent. on 1st November, 1920. 25 per cent. on 6th December, 1920. 25 per cent. on 5th January, 1921.

Interest will be subject to Commonwealth taxation, but will be free of State income tax.

To raise a loan on more liberal terms tends to depress the value of stocks already held, and it is but fair to guard against this as much as possible. We have accordingly provided that subscribers to the new loan will have the privilege of converting at face value an equal amount of stock or bonds which they hold in connexion with previous War Loans. This concession is a valuable one, and, it is expected, will induce many persons holding stock and bonds in previous War Loan issues to freely subscribe to the new one.

The terms of the loan, although still below the price of loans elsewhere, are the best ever offered by the Commonwealth in Australia, and are such as to give a good return to persons having money for investment. The higher rate of interest offered for a long term will, it is believed, be attractive to the investing public. As the payment of instalment’s is spread over a period of five months, the Government hopes that farmers and woolgrowers who receive the value of their produce during that time will, with the assistance of the banks, be able to contribute liberally to the new loan. As in previous occasions, the Government is prepared ‘ to help persons who have not the ready money to meet the instalments of the loan as they fall due, and arrangements will be made with the Australian banks to make advances at a rate of 5 per cent. per annum to customers who have a good prospect of paying the money within eighteen months. Under these arrangements, the banks will advance up to 90 per cent. of the bonds subscribed for, and no security other than the bonds themselves will be required.

The Government will arrange, as was done in the case of previous loans, for the appointment of Committees to assist in obtaining subscriptions. These bodies have materially assisted in the past; their efforts have been greatly appreciated ; and their work in connexion with the forthcoming loan, it is expected, will greatly contribute to its success.

As before stated, the new loan is required mainly for the expenses of repatriation, and the Government confidently looks to the generous people of Australia to voluntarily subscribe the sum which is necesary to meet the obligations of the Commonwealth. The terms offered to subscribers to the new loan are in themselves very attractive as an investment. Apart from that aspect of the matter, however, the Government has obligations to the soldiers which must be fulfilled. This can only be done by the whole-hearted support of the people. During the war, while the issue was still in doubt, the people of Australia provided the means asked for by the Government. Victory has been secured largely by the efforts of those whom we are bound in honour to restore to peaceful and prosperous occupations in their own land for the freedom and security of which they fought.

To raise the money is an imperative necessity. The privileges of citizenship carry with them corresponding duties. The obligations of the Commonwealth to the soldiers to whose valour and sacrifice we owe our lives, our liberties and all that we have, must be honoured. To invest in this loan is both good business and good patriotism; and every citizen should, as far as his means permit, do his duty by contributing to it. We much prefer the voluntary method of raising the money, but if that method fails to provide what is required, it will be incumbent upon us to adopt other means. It must be made perfectly clear that those who endeavour to evade theirduty cannot be permitted to do so.

Now, there are one or two observations which I would like to make upon the statement I have just made. The first has to do with the rate of interest. The nominal rate offered by the Commonwealth is slightly higher than that paid by the States for recent issues. It is necessary to offer a higher nominal rate because the States’ loans are free of both State and Commonwealth Income Tax, whereas the Commonwealth loan is subject to Commonwealth taxation, which is on a much higher scale than that imposed by the States. The governing factor in connexion with the rate of interest is the price of money all over the world. This has gone up very considerably. One has only to examine the returns upon bonds and stocks of various countries, and more particularly in London, as well as in Australia, to see just what it means. I have before me a list of stocks in London, together with particulars concerning their yield to the investor at the present time. For instance, our Commonwealth 51/2 per cent. stock, redeemable in June, 1927, yields altogether £6 18s. per cent. at present. Other stocks, of the British Government, are yielding £7 2s. 6d. and £7 7s. 6d. Victorian 31/2 per cent. inscribed stock, redeemable in 1923, is giving a rate of interest amounting to £7 12s. 3d. at present in the London market, while other stocks go even higher. I notice, as a further example, that City of Sydney 4 per cent. stock is returning in London now £7 15s.

I have another statement before me, taken from the Times of 7th May last, giving the prices for national war bonds. Some of them, redeemable in 1922, at a redemption price of £102, and with a present price of £96 10s., are yielding £7 6s. per cent. Reference to the information before me will inform honorable members that other stocks are yielding similarly. There is quite a list of them. Our own stocks here are yielding in much the same way. For instance our 41/2 per cent. bonds, redeemable in 1925, are yielding £6 7s. 4d. on the market. Our 5 per cent. stock, redeemable in 1923, is returning £6 . 19s.11d. Our 5 per cent: bonds, redeemable in 1927, are quoted at £6 14s. 7d.

Mr Tudor:

– That is, if you have the money now to buy those bonds at the rate at which they are selling on the market; but if you put the money in you are not getting anything like that.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We have to recognise the main fact that the price of money has been raised very considerably and, accordingly, that we are bound to make our interest rate slightly higher.

There is another matter which I should mention, and that is the subject of provision in regard to old stocks. I find that in the Old Country they are converting some of their floating debt into Treasury Bonds, the currency varying from five to fifteen years ; and the inducements offered to the public to convert these moneys into fixed bonds are very remarkable. I have before me the latest prospectus, issued by the Imperial Treasury at the time. It is for the redemption of unfunded debt of early maturity. Honorable members will recollect that the Imperial authorities have to deal with about £1,300,000,000 sterling of unfunded debt, and they are making an effort to fix that debt in order that they may know exactly what is the financial outlook for the immediate future. This is what the prospectus says -

The bonds will carry interest at the rate of 5 per cent. per annum, payable half-yearly on the 1st May and 1st November, and, subject to the conditions stated below, will carry additional interest payable during the period ending 1st May, 1925, as follows : -

If and when during any half-year ended 1st May or 1st November, the Treasury Bills issued to the public were sold tothem at an average rate of discount (as certified by the Bank of England) exceeding 51/2 per cent. and under 61/2 per cent. per annum, additional interest will be payable on the interest date next succeeding such 1st May or 1st November at the rate of 1 per cent. per annum.

If and when such average rate of discount was 61/2 per cent. per annum or over, at the rate of 2 per cent. per annum.

The British Government, therefore, is actually paying up to 7 per cent. for these bonds, redeemable in from five to fifteen years.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– What is the term of our proposed new loan?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The term is ten years. We have about £88,000,000 falling due in 1927, and that, I suggest, is about as much as we can expect to convert, even in the most favorable circumstances. My advice is that it would be better to extend the proposed new loan over a little longer period. It is much more convenient, of course, to convert our loans in big sums if the market befavorable; but, since we cannot guarantee future market conditions, it is deemed prudent to provide for the conversion in 1927 of the sum I have mentioned, leaving the proposed new loan to a later date. Referring again to the proposal of the British Government, I should like to read another clause of the prospectus -

The first interest payment, payable 1st November, 1920, will represent in the case of each bond interest to that date from the date on which the application was lodged and payment made for the bond, and will include additional interest at the rate of 2 per cent.’ per annum.

This is provision for a bonus of 2 per cent. in addition to a possible rate of 7 per cent., and it indicates, I think, the difficulties which financiers all over the world are experiencing in endeavouring to place the public debt of a nation on a stable basis. There can be no doubt that the British Treasury would not pay these enormous rates did they not feel the necessity to make the financial outlook secure in the immediate future. They cannot afford to have a huge floating debt, and so they are prepared to pay extraordinarily high rates of interest, in order to rid themselves of this financial menace which otherwise would be hanging over them.

Mr West:

– Can the Minister say what steps the British Government is taking to wipe out the debt?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– As the honorable member is well aware, the British Government is doing a very great deal to reduce it.

Mr West:

– More than your Government has the courage to attempt.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I suggest that my honorable friend should await the Budget statement. Then, perhaps, he will find scope for criticism of proposals which the Government will submit regarding this and other matters. Meantime, I should like to say a few words about repatriation.

Mr J H Catts:

– Is the British Government raising this money in England ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes; and it is making a great effort to free itself of troubles arising from its obligations in America.

Now a word or two about repatriation. The position, on the whole, is fairly satisfactory, though, as I have already pointed out, we have, in some cases, to pay extraordinarily high prices for the land on which to settle our soldiers. In some States, where land ischeap, the problem is an easy one; but. the position is different in other States where land values are appreciably higher, and its availability is very much less.

Mr Fenton:

– The Government has no oversight over this matter.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The only oversight which the Government can exercise is in regard to finance.

Mr Fenton:

– Yes. You have to pay when the States send in the bill.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We pay very willingly; and I hope we shall always do so, since there is very good security behind all money ear-marked for this purpose. But I shall deal with that matter shortly in a statement on the general loan situation. The total number of soldiers already settled upon the land in the Commonwealth is well over 17,000.

Mr Gabb:

– How many have had to go off the land in order to allow soldiers to settle on it?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Of course, troubles will arise in connexion with this and other matters; and we can only seek to remedy difficulties as they arise.

I should like now to say a few words, upon the general loan situation, and then I shall have finished.

The public debtof the Commonwealth on the 30th June, 1920, in respect of war services was £335,300,000. That sum is comprised of the following items: - War loans raised in Commonwealth, £219,800,000; deduct repurchases and securities surrendered in payment of succession duties, £7,040,000; outstanding debt in Australia, £212,760,000; loans from Government of United Kingdom, £43,080,000 ; indebtedness to Government of United Kingdom for maintenance, transport, and equipment of Australian Imperial Force, £37,100,000; indebted ness to British Admiralty for transport of troops, victualling, repairs, and other services for Australian Fleet, £6,100,000; accrued deferred pay, Australian Imperial Force, to 30th June, 1920, £260,000; war gratuity (estimate), £30,000,000. Gross wax debt, £335,300,00. The whole of that amount, however, has not been spent on active naval and military operations during the recent war. A sum of £22,000,000, representing expenditure on realizable assets, should be deducted, leaving a net war debt of £313,300,000. The £22,000,000 is made up as follows: - Indebtedness of States for loans for soldier land settlement, wheat silos, &c, to be refunded, £12,100,000; capital expenditure on warservice homes to be refunded, £4,900,000; present capital value of ships purchased or constructed out of war loan moneys (omitting wooden ships), £4,000,000; other recoverable expenditure charged to war loan, £1,000,000. Total, £22,000,000. The expenditure for repatriation is of a character much different from that required for the active conduct of the war, inasmuch as the land settlement of soldiers is a reproductive work, creating substantial assets equal to, if not greater in value than, the expenditure. Similarly, assets are created in building warservice homes. In both cases the money spent - really advanced - by the Commonwealth will be repaid with interest. I think it is time we began to emphasize this aspect of the case. Up to date the expenditure by the Commonwealth for land settlement, war service homes, and silos is £17,000,000. Several of the States have, during peace times, spent large sums on similar services. Shipbuilding and the purchase of ships which, during the war, were charged to War Loan, have also placed in the hands of the Commonwealth valuable vessels which have earned large profits for the revenue. The amount shown above as owing to the United Kingdom, apart from the funded debt, totals £43,200,000. That figure does not include a temporary advance of £2,500,000 from the British Government to meet London payments, nor an amount of £4,800,000 owing for interest. The latter sum has been placed in a Trust Fund in the Treasury for payment when opportunity offers. Both sums will be paid as soon as the cash can be conveniently placed in London. As honorable members know, our great difficulty is to shift money from London to here and from here to London. It is that which is causing a great deal of our difficulty at the moment: it is not that the money is not available, but that there is difficulty in moving it between the two places. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Why should expenditure on silo construction be included in that category? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I take it that the honorable member wishes to know why that expenditure should be regarded as a war obligation ? {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Yes. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I do not know that I can give any adequate reason just now. I suppose the money had to be found while the war was in progress, and it came out of war loan money, though, of course, it will be accounted for separately, and placed in a different category. I think I am right in calling attention to the deductions which should be made from our total war obligations, because all this expenditure cannot be called dead-weight war debt. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- The inference is that the money is regarded as war expenditure because it was spent for the preservation of wheat which belonged to the Imperial Government. {: #subdebate-24-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Our deadweight war debt is very much less than the total of the loans raised during the war. Loans were raised for other purposes than the mere dissipating of the moneys in war operations. All the item of £22,000,000 should come back to us with interest, and help the revenues of Australia, while assisting in the settlement of the country. This expenditure stands on the same footing as the expenditure on the ordinary settlement schemes of the State Governments; all we are doing is extending those schemes, and perhaps varying the terms "a little, though not so very much. Therefore, it seems to me we should not be doing ourselves or the country justice if we included all this expenditure in our war obligations; it should rather be regarded as expenditure during the currency of the war for settlement and housing purposes. As already stated, the new loan is required mainly for the' expenses of repatriation, including war service homes - in short, for reproductive services. There is still a sum of about £3,000,000 required to meet certain outstanding accounts in connexion with the Expeditionary Force and Australian Fleet, and this sum should be added to the net war debt of £313,300,000 previously mentioned. The final net war debt may therefore be set down at £316,300,000. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- Is that after deducting the expenditure on developmental works? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Yes; which in their nature do not represent dead-weight war debt. After the new loan has been raised, no further loans will be floated for ordinary war purposes. It may, however, be necessary to raise further money for repatriation, but I hope this may not be for any large amounts. At any rate, for purely war purposes, the last of the loans has really been raised. I hope that the further money that may be necessary in the future for repatriation will not be very much more than that I am now asking the country to find. Our obligations are great, but our country is great and prosperous, notwithstanding the criticisms made from time to time. I am the very last to take a too optimistic view of our liabilities and obligations. I have stressed these far too often. But when we have the fact that our revenues for the year are millions more than we anticipated, surely we may congratulate ourselves without indulging in anything which the newspapers seem to regard as utterly unjustifiable. I say, again, that our obligations are tremendous, but, at the same time, our country's financial position is thoroughly sound. No doubtall that is needed is proper prudence - the exercise of care in the spending of the moneys raised from time to time. So long as we proceed along these lines, we may face the future with hope and confidence. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP; UAP from 1931 -- How much are you asking for- £25,000,000 ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I am not asking the House for any amount at the present time, but simply . making a statement. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Have you the necessary authority to raise the whole of the £25,000,000 ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Yes; and for more than that. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Will there be a compulsory provision in the Loan Bill? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I hope and believe that the terms will enable us to gather in this loan without the aid of compulsion, but, at the same time, it must be made clear that the money has to be raised, and if we cannot get it by one method we must adopt another. These are obligations to the soldiers which cannot be disregarded, and I hope the country will enable the Government to discharge them to the full without the necessity for compulsion. Mr.Fenton. - What is the annual interest bill on the Federal loans ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I expect that when the total is made up, our interest bill in the future will not be far short of £20,000,000. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Is it not over that amount now? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- No. But, after all, this is not the time for the discussion of details, and I shall be prepared to give any information required later on. As a final word, I wish to say that, on the occasion of the last loan, there were Committees throughout the length and breadth of Australia which assisted us in a wonderfully effective way to the realization of our objective. I am hoping to reconstructthose Committees, and that they will afford us the same patriotic help they did before. I now appeal to every honorable member to help us to the extent of his power, his capabilities, and his opportunities to raise this money for the benefit of the soldiers of Australia. {: #subdebate-24-0-s2 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra *.- (By leave)* - I think that the course adopted by the Acting Treasurer this afternoon is a most irregular one. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will the honorable member be)longin making this statement? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I intend to occupy only a few minutes, but there is nothing to prevent any other honorable member from then asking leave to make a statement, and that is what I am protesting against. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I took the usual course. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I think that the Acting Treasurer has gone farther than any previous Treasurer has done in making the announcement which he did concerning the proposed loan. I have no doubt that if every other honorable member desired to make a statement in regard to this matter, the House would, within reason, grant him leave to do so. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- No, it would not. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Then, I protest against certain individuals being favoured. Personally, I ask for no favours. The Treasurer has made a statement setting forth not only what he proposes to do in connexion with the forthcoming loan; but comparing the conditions under which it is to be raised with those which governed previous loans, and pointing out the prices at which debentures in those loans can be purchased to-day. His figures in this connexion are, I think, fallacious, because although one may perhaps purchasestock at, say, £91, bearing interest at 41/2 per cent., and the Treasurer may work out the return thus obtained at £6 7s. 6d. per cent. per annum- {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I did not say that at all.The honorable member is leaving out of consideration the question of redemption. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I know that many persons who have invested in previous loans, and who have not sold a single bond or debenture, are not receiving anything like the amount of interest quoted by the Acting Treasurer. They are getting41/2 per cent., or possibly 51/4 per cent., return upon their investments when everything is taken into consideration. There is also another matter in respect of which I desire to make a. protest. Upon Friday last I asked the Acting Treasurer whether State loans were free of Federal income tax, and he replied that they were. I protest against any person having to pay income tax upon the interest derived from investments in Commonwealth loans when he is not called upon to pay Federal income tax upon interest accruing from investments in State loans. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- The public know the terms upon which a loan is to be floated before they subscribe to it. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- But since a number of these loans were floated, a progressive income tax has been made operative in this country. To-day the position is that an individual with a very moderate income of, say, £200 or £300 per annum, has to pay Federal income tax at about 3d. or 4d. in the £1, whilst a person with an income of £5,000 or £6,000 per annum is required to contribute about 8s. in the £1. It is unfair that we should remit only 3d. in the £1 in the one case and 8s. in the £1 in the other. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- Large investments in our war loans obtain a return by way of interest of about 7 per cent. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- More than that. Large subscribers to those loans reap an advantage of more than 21/2 per cent. over small subscribers, when Federal and State income taxes are considered. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The whole thing is becoming very dangerous. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I quite recognise that. When we were discussing the Income Tax Assessment Bill it was pointed out that if we adopted a particular exemption which was proposed, and if an exemption was made of the Federal income tax we should be remitting taxation' upon an amount representing some £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 per annum. Unfortunately, by the time the next Budget statement is made the proposed loan will have been successful or unsuccessful. To-day the Acting Treasurer has submitted what was in reality a preliminary Budget, in which he set forth the amount of our indebtedness. In ordinary circumstances the debate upon that statement would have been adjourned, and honorable members would have been afforded an opportunity of studying it at their leisure. It was obviously impossible for any honorable member to follow the elaborate explanation made by the Acting Treasurer this afternoon, and to grip all the details presented so as to enable him to discuss it in the way that he would like. I protest against being obliged to ask the permission of the House to make a statement. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- Of course, the Acting Treasurer need not have made that statement at all. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I followed the course which was laid down by the Government of which the honorable member for Yarra **(Mr. Tudor)** was a member. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- A course which I believe to be perfectly right. But the Acting Treasurer'sstatement should have been made in Committee of Supply, where every honorable member would have had an opportunity of discussing the conditions which attach to the proposed loan. I do not find fault with the statement of the Acting Treasurer itself {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I took the course that has always been taken, and it is now objected to for the first time. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- There is a sound reason for objecting to it. Although the war has terminated, I recognise that we have to raise money for repatriation purposes. I am protesting in the interest of every honorable member against the coursewhich has been followed to-day. Whenever a Budget statement is delivered, the Budget papers are distributed amongst honorable members so that they are in the position to follow the Treasurer's remarks. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Does the honorable member think that the Commonwealth has power to tax interest accruing from State loans? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I do. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -Your AttorneyGeneral said that the Commonwealth had not that power, and the matter was decided accordingly. Of course we laymen are easily able to dispose of these questions. But the matter has already been determined. I understand that the Constitution is against us. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- If that be so, it is certainly another argument in favour of the motion which the honorable member for Eden-Monaro **(Mr. Austin Chapman)** has put upon the business-paper. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- The matter should be tested. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Yes, in the proper place. When the question was raised some time ago, many honorable members who are now on the Ministerial side of the House, but who were then in Opposition, protested against the Government taking to themselves the power to tax State instrumentalities. At that time it was thought that the Commonwealth had power to tax such instrumentalities. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- If the honorable member will turn up the records for 1915 he will find that I was in favour of some arrangement being made upon this matter between the Commonwealth and the States, but that his own Government was against the adoption of that course. Mir. TUDOR.- Probably because we thought we had the necessary power to tax State instrumentalities. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member's Government said that we had not. They insisted that we had not that power. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- If a Government of which I was a member, made a mistake, I am not one of those who will obstinately refuse to attempt to rectify it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I am not suggesting that a mistake was made, but that the Government of that day acted on the best advice they could get, which was to the effect that the Constitution was against the Commonwealth taxing State instrumentalities. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Now that we have a progressive income tax, the position is infinitely different from what it was in 1915. If those who have been the largest subscribers to our loans find that by doing so they can escape the payment of income tax they will continue to do so. It is a wellknown fact that persons who are liable to pay probate duties go into the open market and buy bonds at £91 or £92, and tender them in payment of the duties at the par value of £100. That was not our intention when we agreed to allow Commonwealth bonds to be accepted in payment of probate duties. I join with the Acting Treasurer in hoping that the loan will be a success, because we must do the best we can for the men who went away to fight for us, but I hope the Government will not be half-hearted in the matter of making it a compulsory loan. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- And retrospective. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I agree with the honorable member that those who have done well out of Australia in the past, and have escaped contributing to our loans, ought to be made to bear their share. I hope the loan will be a success. {: .page-start } page 2565 {:#debate-25} ### INSTITUTE OF SCIENCE AND INDUSTRY BILL. {: #debate-25-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move - >That this Bill be now read a second time. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- This is a hardy annual. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member's interjection serves to indicate that this measure is not altogether a stranger to the House. For several reasons with which honorable members are fairly well acquainted it has not been found possible in days gone by to pass it into law. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Is this Bill exactly the same as the one introduced previously? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There are several alterations, the reasons for which I will explain later. The long delay in passing a Bill to establish an Institute of Science and Industry has only served to emphasize the necessity for such legislation and the creation of such an Institute, and to demonstrate that throughout tie length and breadth of the land, in many quarters, which," perhaps, have the best possible knowledge of the need for an Institute, there has been an insistent demand for the establishment of one. In some directions we are told that this proposal is simply an expensive fad of the Government which can serve no utilitarian purpose, but simply provides a means for spending money which the country needs sorely for other purposes. I entirely disagree with that opinion. The more study one gives to the subject the more one becomes convinced of the absolute necessity for Australia doing what is possible, at all events at the present moment, towards the establishment of an Institute of Science and Industry. "We are obliged to cut our coat according to our cloth. If we had unlimited funds at our command, no doubt we could launch out and do vast and useful work for Australia by spending a very large sum of money in this direction, but we cannot do that to-day. We must proceed slowly along the road. However, notwithstanding the present financial position and the enormous commitments ahead of us, I do not think we ought to refrain from making a start in a direction in which so much useful work can be performed. I was very interested a little while ago when I read a resolution passed by the American Federation of Labour dealing with this particular subject. No country in the world to-day, not even Germany, is spending more money in or devoting more attention to scientific research than is America. Presently I shall tell honorable members the extent to which America is subsidizing this class of research in many directions and in many fields, but nevertheless the last Federal Convention of the American Federation of Labour felt called upon to pass a resolution in such clear, concise, and comprehensive terms that, although it is lengthy, I propose to read it, because it sets out facte which show how necessary it is for Australia to f ollow the example of other lands. The resolution was as follows : - >Whereas scientific research and the technical application of results of research form a fundamental basis upon which the development of our industries - manufacturing, agriculture, mining, and others must Test; and > >Whereas the productivity of industry isgreatly increased by the technical application of the results of scientific research in> physics, chemistry, biology, and geology, iri engineering and agriculture, and in the related sciences; and the health and wellbeing, not only of the workers, but of the wholepopulation as well, are dependent upon advances in medicine and sanitation; so that the value of scientific advancement to the welfare of the nation is many times greater than the cost of the necessary research; and > >Whereas the increased productivity of industry resulting from scientific research is a most potent factor in the ever-increasing 'struggle of the workers to raise their standards of living, and the importance of this factor must steadily increase since there is a limit beyond which the average standard of living of the whole population can not progress by the usual methods of re-adjustment, which limit can only be raised by research and the utilization of the results of research in industry; and > >Whereas there are numerous and important and pressing problems of administration and regulation now faced by Federal, State, and local governments, the wise solution of which depends upon scientific and technical research; and > >Whereas the war has brought home to all the nations engaged in it the overwhelming importance of science and technology to national welfare, whether in war or in peace time, and not only is private initiative attempting to organize far-reaching research in these fields on a national scale, but in several countries governmental participation and support of such undertakings are already active; therefore be it > >Resolved, by the American Federation of Labour in convention assembled, that a broad programme of scientific and technical research is of major importance to the national welfare, and should be fostered in every way by the Federal Government, and that the activities of the Government itself in such research should be adequately and generously supported in order that the work may be greatly strengthened and extended; and the secretary of the Federation is instructed to transmit copies of this resolution to the President of the United States, to the President *pro tempore* of the Senate, and to the Speaker of the House of Representatives. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- Labour has taken a strong lead in that direction. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I admit that, and that is why I am looking forward to a good deal of support from honorable members opposite, because science can do a great deal to improve the position of the workers generally. Scientific discoveries have been the means of reducing expenditure, which, has enabled employers to pay their workmen higher wages and provide them with better accommodation. The resolution, in its preamble, set out in clear and comprehensive terms the reason for and the desirableness of Australia proceeding on similar lines. I stated just now that we have had evidence from the time when this project was originally mooted - I think in 1916 - that in many parts of Australia there is a general desire that the Commonwealth should proceed with the establishment of the Institute, to afford facilities for scientific and technical research. I do not think the necessity for the establishment of the Institute has been emphasized by any one more than by our organizations of primary producers, who are scattered throughout the Commonwealth. I believe this is largely due to the fact that they arc realizing more and more the extent to which it is possible for science to assist, them in the useful and sometimes difficult work which they are performing, and this has been borne home to them in a striking manner, particularly during recent years. Many honorable members will probably be able to recall a time when bullocks could be purchased at los. per head, and sheep at 5s. per head, and in those days it did not concern the owner very much - or, at least, not to the same extent as it does now - if disease entered their flocks and herds. Although they incurred losses, they did nor. feel them as they do to-day, when sheep and cattle are selling at such very high prices. I believe that many of the diseases that are common to our flocks and herd's are preventable, and Australian producers now realize that the chief assistance they can expect to receive is from scientists. Apart from the fact that the average grazier, pastoralist, and farmer has not the scientific knowledge to undertake research work on his own account, there are many reasons why it is almost impossible for him, even were he equipped with the necessary knowledge, to conduct the necessary investigations himself. For that' reason, if for no other, producers recognise that the Government can materially assist them by providing the means whereby scientific research can be undertaken, not only in their interests, but in the interests of the whole community. I do not desire to weary honorable members by reading a list of the associations which have passed a resolution in favour of the establishment of the Institute, but I think it necessary to submit some particulars to the House. They are as follows : - The Graziers Association of New South Wale3, the Primary Producers of New South W ales- {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- How long ago was the resolution passed? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have not the dates before me, but I can assure the honorable member that the one from the Graziers Association of New South Wales reached me only last week, and the one from the Primary Producers Association of New South Wales about three or four months ago. Many of these organizations, the names of which I am submitting, have passed a resolution comparatively recently, and necessarily all of them since the original idea was mooted by the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)-** These organizations have directly associated themselves with the request that the establishment of the Federal Institute of Science and Industry be proceeded with. The list continues : - The Sydney Chamber of Commerce, the New South Wales Chamber of Manufactures, Institute of Civil Engineers, Australian Industries Protection Board, Australian Chemical Institute, Australian Aero Club, Electrical Association of Australia, Engineering Association-' of New South Wales, Chemical Association, Master Builders Association, Institute of Local Government Association, Wireless Institute, Chemical Society of Technical College. Chamber of Agriculture, Society of Chemical Industry, Royal Society of New South Wale3, University Chemical Society, Linnean Society of New South Wales, and Master Process Engravers Association. Those associations passed a resolution in the following terms with the direct request that it should be conveyed to the Government: - >That this meeting of scientific and industrial organizations urge upon the Federal Government the desirability of passing into law at an early date the Bill constituting the Commonwealth Institute 'of Science and Industry. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Are all the resolutions the same ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, it was a resolution to which they all assented. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Who framed the resolution? It might be similar to resolutions which have been carried in various parts of the country but which have emanated from Collins House. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- These are representative scientific bodies, and those responsible would not give their support to such a resolution unless they believed it to be right. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- They are all moved by the one impulse. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- But not acting on their own initiative. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- That remains to be seen. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Requests have repeatedly been received from the various organizations of primary producers in the different States for the investigation by the Institute of Science and Industry of problems affecting their interests. The temporary institute which has been carrying out preliminary investigation work has been approached over and over again in this way. The Primary Producers Union of New South Wales has given its strong support to the proposed institute, and has called attention to the enormous preventable losses occurring amongst the flocks and herds of the Commonwealth. In April last, a conference of representatives of branches of New South Wales agricultural bureaux, which, as honorable members probably know, are made up of farmers and primary producers, in association with the Agricultural Department of the State, which carries on experiments in their districts in regard to the growing of crops and other matters, approved of Commonwealth action. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Have you a similar resolution from the other States? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not sure that the matter has been as cordially taken up in Victoria as in New South Wales. From the latter State repeated requests for investigations have been made. In the past, it was objected that the Commonwealth Government proposed to create an institute whose work would overlap that of State Departments which were doing good service. But it was never intended that there should be any such overlapping- {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Then you were unfortunate in the way in which you presented the measure twelve months ago. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think that the provisions in thisPill to which the honor able member alludes are practically identical with, if not quite the same as, thosein the Bill of last year. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- I am aware that there is the germ of considerable expansion here. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -Far from desiring to create an institute whose work would overlap that of State Departments, wedesire quite the contrary. There is not the slightest doubt, however, but thatthere is to-day a great deal of overlapping. The six States interest themselves, to some slight extent, at all events, in the questions which the Institute of Scienceand Industry will eventually take up, and very often several State Departments are investigating the same matter. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Yes; but this work cannot be centralized. It is essential to carry out investigations in variouslocalities. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In many other cases the work can be centralized, and the problem is often one to be studied as a whole, because it affects every part of Australia. To obtain the best results some matters must be studied from one end of Australia to the other, and the results of the experiments collated. That is not being done now. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Is it not better to have independent investigators for all scientific research work ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not dealing with that point now. The establishment of an Institute of Science and Industry and the relation of that Department to the States was brought prominently before the Premiers' Conference which was held in May, 1918, when **Mr. Holman,** then Premier of New South Wales, moved the following motion - >That the Commonwealth Government be requested to cease the procedure at present being carried out whereby unnecessary expenditure is being incurred in the assumption of functions by the Commonwealth Bureau of Science and Industry which are at present being efficiently performed by the States. On that occasion, **Mr. Holman** stood alone. Let me quote what was said on the motion by the other Premiers. **Mr. Peake,** who was then Premier of South Australia, and whose death we all lament, said - >In my view, this is one of the big questions which we might very well feel satisfied belong rather to the Commonwealth than to the States, because no scientific discovery will be purely a State affair. It is simply a question of whether the Commonwealth can show us that we are going to have increased efficiency without duplication of the cost of the State Departments. If it can show us, then I, for one, will heartily support the Commonwealth taking over the whole of the departments of scientific research, because I think they would do the work much better. .... > >I would like to put another view from the stand-point of the States. I do not think any State stands more strongly for State rights than does South Australia, but we regard science as on an entirely different footing from practical adminstrative work. Science has no boundaries, and the operations of the scientific bureau could very well be spread over the whole of Australia, both from the point of view of more effective work and from the stand-point of economy. What is the use of five or six different State Departments pursuing inquiries on different lines when possibly one body could much more effectively perform the work of investigation and research? > >I think that there must necessarily be greater strength in the scientific methods of the Commonwealth than in those of the States. The greater scientific knowledge which money will enable the Commonwealth to obtain will strengthen every Department, and I think that' in this case the Commonwealth can very well take over all scientific investigation on behalf of the general community. **Mr. Lee,** the Premier of Tasmania, said ; I think no very great harm can come of this departure, provided the Commonwealth Bureau exercises a reasonable amount of discretion - that is to say, that any matters which are being investigated by a State Bureau should not be undertaken by the Commonwealth, matters peculiar to the State in which the Bureau exists. If those are left to the States I can quite imagine there are many questions that can be well investigated by the Commonwealth. In matters that are common to all States, it appears to me, the Commonwealth Bureau can effect very essential service to the whole Commonwealth. **Mr. Lefroy,** the Premier of Western Australia, said - >No, doubt, the question of scientific research is more important at the present moment than, perhaps, at any previous time in Australia. There are many diseases in stock that are common to the whole of Australia, and I am of opinion that better research work could be done by one central body. There are not many men in the world who are experts in these mattersthey are very difficult to obtain. If one State were able to get the services of the most experienced man to go into research work, the other States would be unable to avail themselves of his services. Although I am very jealous of the sovereign rights of the States, at the same time I think this research work could be better done through one central body. I should be prepared to fall in with any arrangement that might have that object in view, seeing that it is in the interests of my own State that it should be done. There are many different problems which we shall have to deal with in Australia in the future, and they could be better dealt with by one central body. **Mr. Lawson,** the Premier of Victoria, said ; I confess to a large measure of sympathy with the President's views as an expression of an abstract principle. It is, perhaps, possible that the Commonwealth, in the exercise of this right, might logically take over certain other matters which are specifically State functions, but I do not fear that. 1 think we might reasonably welcome this institution as capable of doing something which, unfortunately, the States have not succeeded in doing. In the State activities and State inquiries there have been overlapping and duplication; but, by means of centralization, more satisfactory results can be achieved. **Mr. Swinburne's** memorandum, which the Acting Prime Minister read, states the case fully. We want concentration and co-ordination, and we ought to leave it to one body to make specific inquiries, instead of all the States independently investigating the same subject, thus making for duplication. . . . I say let us welcome the Commonwealth, and work hand in hand with it in this matter. Mr.Richard Foster. - That is very fine, and, in view of it, this Bill is a mighty improvement on the last. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am glad to hear the honorable member say that the Bill is an improvement on the measure submitted during last Parliament, and I hope that its second reading may be agreed to unanimously. Let me try to give the House very briefly some idea of the extent to which other countries have subsidized scientific research. Before the war, there was no country which devoted more time, attention, and money to it than Germany. Had it not been for this, she would not have been able to keep going half as long as she did. Her chemists were able to produce substitutes for almost everything her people wore or ate. That circumstance is not a reason why we should support scientific research, but it is a wonderful example of what scientific knowledge has been able to accomplish. When, because of the war, the world was cut off from the material advantages she was enjoying as the result of Germany's scientific research and applied science, it was found impossible to proceed with many industrial operations until the scientists had been called in. Great Britain was amongst the first to recognise that, and has created, since the war, a Department which she endowed with ?1,000,000 to start with, and which she has voted this year £360,000 to maintain. She established this institution during the war, and is using it to-day to assist her manufacturers, because she then demonstrated the enormous amount of assistance that it can be to her people in times of peace. We find that America is doing infinitely more even than Great Britain. I quoted in the opening portion of my speech tho resolution passed by the American Federation of Labour, and one marvels at the fact that they did pass that resolution in view of the tremendous amount that America annually votes for this particular class of work. Other countries were quick to perceive *the* wisdom of Great Britain's action, and to realize that immediately the war was over the international competitions of peace would be resumed. The United States, which, perhaps, with the exception of Germany, has done more .than any other country to subsidize and encourage research into industrial problems, was forced to the conclusion that her efforts in this direction, great as they had been, were insufficient. She not only increased her enormous subsidies, raising the amount expended on the many activities of the Department of Agriculture alone to £6,000,000, but she established a permanent organization called the National Research Council. The principal reason which actuates the Government in promoting :the Bill for the establishment of an Institute of Science and Industry in this country is the desire to assist our primary industries. We realize that, unless something can be done to assist the man on the land, he is in for a bad time. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- And so is the country. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That follows. _ The difficulty that the primary industries of Australia are peculiarly up against is this: We have in ,the cities a constantlyrising level of wages. It is going up and up and up until, in competition for some kinds of labour, the primary industries have to pay more and more and more. Although there has been some rise in the level of prices which the primary producers are getting for their products, we have to realize at the same time that they are going back again into the old competitive conditions under which they will have to sell their produce in the markets of the world. The time, perhaps, is not very far distant when it will be found almost impracticable to compete with the rate of wages being paid in the cities, and keep the men on the land. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Why did you not bear all that in mind when you were bringing in your Tariff ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do not think it has any direct bearing upon that question, although I shall be quite willing to argue the point when the occasion arises. The problem I have stated is self-evident. All those who have any close acquaintance with the rural industries of this country know full well that that is the real difficulty which the farmer is up against every day in the week. I believe that by the application of science in its broadest sense to primary industries the farmer can be helped perhaps to a greater extent than through anything else. If by improved methods of cultivation, and of breeding, and by eliminating the preventable losses which he now annually sustains, we can add to the farmer's returns, he can meet far more easily that increase which is going on in the cost of wages than he can today. The results which have been obtained in other countries, and particularly of late years in America, encourage us to believe that a vast deal can be done in this country upon similar lines, and that the producer can be put into a better position through applied scientific research than perhaps by anything else that we can do. The Government hope that, when the Institute is established, the procedure will be, as seems inevitable, to divide its work into various branches. It is impossible to conduct the whole of the operations of the Institute as one branch. The work must be specialized. One special branch will probably be devoted to agricultural problems, another perhaps to stock diseases, another, again, to forest products, and so on. We must have that subdivision and specialization. When the Institute is established, while it cannot hope to do as much as America is doing to-day, if, on the agricultural side, it takes as a model the activities of the American Department of Agriculture- {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- It can appropriate the greater part of the results of what America is doing. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It can, to some extent, but every country has its own peculiar problems. Take, as an example, the tick investigations in America. What they have done there is a help to us ; but, so far as our investigations have gone on the scientific side into that urgent problem, which is inflicting enormous loss on this country every year, they show that America's experience is not exactly ours, and that the problem in America is not exactly the same as the problem in Australia. These differences have to be studied from the scientific side, and only when the scientist has gone into them can he tell the agriculturist the right thing to do to get rid of his troubles. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- Under what part of the Constitution, or what power in the Constitution, do you propose to establish this body? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If the honorable member can show me anything in the Constitution which prevents us proceeding with it, it will be given very careful consideration. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- I am merely seeking information. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- America, as I showed, has increased her total appropriation for her Agricultural Bureau alone to £6,000,000 this year. **Mr. George** Ellery Hall, the chairman of the National Research Council, writes as follows : - >Even if there had been no intellectual stimulus, the present great war would have forced science to the front. In the first days of the conflict the nations of the Entente were faced by problems soluble only through the aid of scientific research. Statesmen whose exclusively classical traininghad afforded them little or no means of appreciating the significance of science, were compelled to summon investigators to their aid in order to overcome difficulties demanding instant solution. The question of manufacture, serious as it was, frequently held second place to the necessity for research. Thus in England it was evidently impossible for the glass factories to produce the special kinds of optical glasses needed for periscopes, gun sights, field glasses, and many other military instruments, until the methods of making these glasses, previously worked out in Germany, had been re-discovered by British investigators. So with scores of other problems forced upon the nation under the stress of war. Scientific research was the first requisite, and both men and funds must be provided without delay. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- That was not want of knowledge, but the craze for cheapness. Germany was producing those things cheaper than Great Britain. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member is not altogether right. The position at that time was that the German scientists were working in connexion with the optical industry of Germany and Austria. They had worked out the scientific problems connected with the manufacture of these lenses in a way which the scientists had never been asked to do in Great Britain. When the war broke out, and the sources of supply were cut off, and the British makers of optical glasses were asked to produce these instruments, they could not do it, fox the simple reason that they had not the necessary scientific knowledge. They had to call in the scientists and ask them to work out the problems for them. When the scientists had worked them out, then, and only then, were the British makers of optical glasses able to produce the articles required. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- They could have done that before the war; but the British people wanted cheap goods from Germany. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That may have had something to do with it. So much for what America has done. Canada first created a temporary Advisory Board, and then took steps to place the organization on a permanent basis. She has now a Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. She proceeded much on the same lines as we have followed, calling in a small Board, in the first place, to advise what was the best thing to do. She then created the permanent institution which she is now votinglarge sums of money to continue. France started with a preliminary grant of £250,000, and a large annual appropriation. Italy voted £250,000 as a first instalment for the work of the National Research Council, "a newly formed institution, whose duties are - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. To further research in the sciences and in the application of these to industry, agriculture, hygienic alimentation, and to national defence; 1. to formulate and accomplish concreteprojects of researches in order to utilize the scientific, technical, and natural resources of the country; 2. to furnish technical or scientific information as required by public administrations, and perform experimental and theoretical researches as asked for by the same administration; 3. to establish constant liaison by means of Italian and foreign delegates with similar foreign organizations; and 4. to furnish to the Army and Navy scientific, technical, and industrial datarelating to national defence. As regards Japan, thewar gave great impetus to manufacturing industries in that country; and to secure greater national efficiency the Government two years ago undertook the establishment of a National Physical Laboratory, with an initial endowment of £500,000, and a similar further sum at a later date. A Japanese dyestuffs industry has been established, with a capital of £800,000, on which the Government guaranteed 8 per cent. Similarly the glycerine industry has been handsomely subsidized. South Africa, New Zealand, Sweden, Belgium, and other countries are all taking steps for the same purpose and with the same ideas as actuate us, for the development of their resources on scientific and economic lines. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- How much does the Minister propose to spend on this proposal ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do not think that consideration should interfere in any way with the views of the House as to the passing of the Bill. The question as to how much we can wisely afford to grant this Institute, year by year, will have to be dealt with by the House when the Estimates are before us. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- But there is no reason why the Minister should not tell us approximately the. expenditure with which the Government propose to start. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not in a position at present to give the House that information, since the Director has not yet been appointed. I am hoping that he will be appointed in time to enable us to obtain from him some idea of what he proposes to do in the first year, so that we can then consider what amount will be necessary to give him reasonable opportunity to carry out some useful work. Rather than spread the Director's activities over a very wide area in the first place - rather than that he should spend a little money here and a little money there - it would be better, I think, to give him sufficient funds to enable him to deal thoroughly with one or more matters. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- Has the Minister in his mind at the present time the name of a suitable person for the position of Director? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I hope that we shall secure a competent man, combining in his own person, not only some scientific knowledge, but business ability and administrative skill. It is not possible for me to announce the name of the gentleman to be appointed,since the Government cannot make an appointment until Parliament has passed the Bill. One can only say, in answer to the honorable member's inquiry, that there are in Australia a limited number of men who possibly could fill the position if they were free to do so. {: .speaker-KGV} ##### Mr Hay: -- Are the Government prepared to provide for an Advisory Board to make recommendations to the Director in regard to the agricultural section? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We have not included in this Bill statutory provision for the appointment of Advisory Councils. The reason for this is that we feel that no one Advisory Council could cover the whole field of scientific research. It is contemplated that the Director, when appointed, will specialize his work, and that it will be necessary to appoint a special man to deal with such a subject as agriculture. That having been done, he would then call to his counsel men who knew something of the subject. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- He will be able to associate with him in his work the existing State Councils. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The State Departments of Agriculture have their experts, and the Director will be charged with the duty of bringing all these into cooperation with himself. I wish to make it clear that the terms of the Bill do not preclude the Director bringing into his counsels men from outside. If he deems it desirable to ask three or four practical pas- toralists to consider with him the details of his scheme dealing with, say, the tick pest, there is nothing in the Bill to prevent his doing so. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- But that will be merely optional on his part ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes. The Bill, as previously framed, laid it down that there must be Advisory Councils. If, however, these Advisory Councils were to cover the whole field of scientific research in agriculture, mining, forestry, and manufacturing in all its branches they would be so unwieldy as to render it impossible to obtain the best results. What is proposed is that instead of having Advisory Councils created by Statute-which would mean that certain interests would have to be left unrepresented, unless we were to make these councils altogether unwieldy - the Director shall be left free to call to his counsel in regard to the particular problems that have to be studied from time to time such men as may be considered desirable. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- And he will be free to benefit from the existing work of the Universities. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Certainly . It is thought that in this way we shall secure better and speedier results, and probably incur far less expenditure, than if we created councils which, however large, within reason, they might be made, could not possibly cover the whole ground. That, briefly, is what we have in our minds and it was that consideration which actuated the Government in removing from the Bill the statutory provision for Advisory Councils. Under such a system it would have been necessary to have a large number of men on a council. Only one of that number might know anything of a particular subject with which the Director was dealing, when perhaps he should have eight or nine men gathered from all parts of Australia to advise and assist him in regard to it. I am afraid that I have not been altogether a popular Minister with the gentlemen who have very kindly consented to act as an Advisory Council for some time past. Those gentlemen did a great deal of preliminary investigation work, and, naturally, having laid the foundation, they were very anxious to see the edifice raised. They wanted to proceed, but, as the Minister charged for the time being with the administration of the Department, I felt that until Parliament had definitely authorized the establishment of this institution, it would not be right for me, notwithstanding that we were not exceeding the vote passed by Parliament in respect of the year, to permit expenditure on work which would necessarily commit the country to expenditure in future years. Acting in accordance with that rule, I have pulled them up time after time. I have said to these gentlemen, " Your preliminary investigations have been very useful, but there you must stay until Parliament has authorized the establishment of the Institute. You must not start upon a career which, having been entered upon, will necessarily result in the country being committed to expenditure in years to come." I make this statement quite frankly. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- They have rendered very excellent service. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- They have, and the country is indebted to them for the work they have done. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Were they not distinguished University men? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Most, but not all of them were. **Mr. Delprat,** for instance, was not a University man, and **Dr.** Cameron, who is connected with the Victorian Department of Agriculture, and others, were not associated with the University. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- They have paved the way for the future. **Mr. GREENE.** They have at all events laid the foundations for future operations in respect of quite a number of investigations to which I hope to refer, and have done a great deal of most useful preliminary work. There has been only one exception to the general rule which, as I said a few moments ago, I have followed in regard to their expenditure, and that is in respect of the prickly pear investigation, to which the Commonwealth was committed some considerable time ago. Honorable members are no doubt aware that the Governments of Queensland and New South Wales agreed with us to expend some £8,000 a year on the prickly pear investigation. When one considers the enormous damage that this pest has done, and is doing, one must recognise that if by an expenditure of £1,000,000 we could rid ourselves of it, we should have paid very little for the solution of such a problem. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Is not the pest spreading in Australia to the extent of 1,000,000 acres a year? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There are in Australia 23,000,000 acres of fine pastoral country covered with prickly pear, and practically useless. The pest is gaining at the rate of 1,000,000 acres per annum. I do not say we are going to spend £1,000,000 in the next five years in trying to rid ourselves of it, but if by such an expenditure within that period we discovered some means of effectively dealing with the prickly pear, we should have got off very cheaply. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The Economy party would not say " Hear, hear !" to such an expenditure. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think it would. We have this pest creeping steadily over the face of the land. The honorable member for Grampians **(Mr. Jowett)** and others who have seen the prickly pear country know that it is practically useless. We have no means at our disposal of turning it to any account whatever unless the land be of great agricultural value. In that case it will pay to clear, but it will not pay to clear pastoral land of the pest. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Even agricultural land has not been cleared of the pest. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Some of the more valuable agricultural lands have been cleared. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- What is the Government of Queensland doing toprevent the spread of the pest on private property? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Government of Queensland have done many things in connexion with the prickly-pear pest. Honorable members are, no doubt, aware that for country infested with prickly pear in Queensland many leases have been issued under pear conditions, and the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** will be able to say better than I can whether those conditions have been complied with or not. The investigations, so far as they have been undertaken, by the Queensland Government and our experience tend to show that there are no mechanical means by which the pest can be dealt with. They have also tended to show that there is no utilitarian purpose to which the pricklypear plant can be put. If the fibre were of use for industrial purposes, or if the plant contained, in sufficient quantities, a drug or any substance for which there would be a commercial demand, the problem of eradicating the pest would not be so difficult of solution. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- Is it not used for fodder? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- Is it not being cultivated in California to be made use of? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member refers to a different cactus altogether. If any commercial use could be made of the plant, something might be done with it; but all the investigations, so far, go to show that there is only one way in which the prickly pear can be dealt with, and that is by the introduction of some insect which will destroy it. The Queensland Government some little time ago introduced the cochineal insect into Queensland, in the hope that it would destroy the prickly pear. However, the cochineal insect proved to be somewhat of an epicure. There is one particular kind of pear which the insect liked, and it has wiped that plant out of existence; but it has left the true prickly pear severely alone. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- It has been found that ants liked the cochineal insects so much that they have killed them all. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is thought that investigation may show that some insect can be found which will destroy the prickly pear. A committee is busy investigating the problem in America from this* particular aspect, and it is hoped and believed that it will be possible for them shortly to announce some results. We can only go on trying to deal with the problem, and I hesitate to believe that science is so bankrupt of resource in this matter that we shall not ultimately find a solution. Though the solution, when found, may involve the expenditure of a good deal of money, there can be little doubt that it will be thoroughly justified, in view of the loss caused to Australia year by year through the spread of this national pest over vast areas of the country. Apart altogether from problems connected with diseases in stock and pests of various kinds, most of which, I believe, were imported to this country, there is a vast field for research, which, I believe, will ultimately yield great results, in connexion with our forests and probably all our flora. Honorable members are aware that the flora of this country is, for the most part, peculiar to Australia, and is not found anywhere else in the world. The probabilities are that the establishment of. forest products laboratories in different parts of Australia will ultimately reveal that we have in our forests, as has been proved to be the case in other countries, vast wealth. I feel satisfied that in that particular direction there is not only a va6t field for research, but that in all human probability that research will reveal sources of great wealth to this country. Then, of course, there is, to be considered the immense assistance that science can afford to our manufacturing industries. This proposal is primarily connected with assistance to our agricultural industries. Action in this direction was originally suggested in this Parliament through a desire to help agriculture, and honorable members will recollect that many years ago the present Minister for Works and Railways **(Mr. Groom)** was associated in this House with the introduction of a Bill for the creation of an Agricultural Bureau. The purpose then in view is covered by the measure now under consideration, but I am satisfied tl: at scientists can also assist our manufacturing industries very materially in the future. I do not wish to delay honorable members by pointing out the many directions in which science can come to the aid of industry. Indirectly, in giving such aid we shall also be assisting our primary producing industries. The more readily the primary products of this country, varied as they are, can be turned to use, the better it will be for the man on the land in all his various activities. I take, for instance, the manufacture of leather. The more leather that is tanned in this country, the better. But there are all sorts of problems connected with the tanning of leather in Australia from a scientific point of view which have never yet, been properly worked out. There are peculiarities in connexion with our tanning material, our climatic and other conditions, which create special chemical problems in connexion with the manufacture of leather. These are specially, difficult problems, which can only be properly solved by scientific investigation, and until they are solved the best results cannot be obtained. Scientists can assist manufacturers in the working up of our metals. It is known that there are peculiarities associated with the metals of every country. One matter of considerable importance^ is the temperature at which various processes should be carried out. The temperature has to be assimilated to the particular class of material that is being dealt with. All these are matters of scientific research, and the ordinary manufacturer has not the apparatus or the knowledge to carry out this work of research. In scores of instances where bad work is turned out the manufacturer blames the material at his command, when, as a matter of fact, the fault is due, not to the material, but to the fact that the process of manufacture followed is not adapted to the material used. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The fault in many cases is due to the material. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am speaking about our raw products. They are all right, but the processes of manufacture sometimes followed are not what they should be. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- If our manufacturers are to depend upon a Government institute to supply them with that . sort of knowledge, they will be going back a long time. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The State does not set out to teach those engaged in industries how to carry them on. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I say that these are matters that can 'be dealt with by scientific research. In such cases, the Director might engage an expert to carry out necessary experiments in a laboratory, or might call together those engaged in a particular industry, and say, " Here is a problem connected with your industry, and if you each contribute so much we can establish a laboratory at a certain' pointto investigate that problem." {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr Laird Smith: -- That is done to a minor degree now. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is so. All that I suggest is that there are avenues in which scientific research can be made of immense assistance to our manufacturing industries, and indirectly to the primary industries with which they are concerned. If by applied science the manufacturer is enabled to use his raw material to better advantage, the primary industry supplying . the raw material will be benefited thereby. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There is an excellent example in what the manufacturer has done for the sugar industry, but that has been done under private auspices. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Everybody knows that the chemical work done by the Colonial Sugar Refining Company in connexion with the manufacture of sugar has been of vast importance to the industry generally. Many persons engaged in manufacture to-day have not sufficient capital to employ technical experts to carry out the scientific work necessary to their industry. In those cases the Government can, through the proposed Institute, come to their aid. They can give them direct assistance, or, as I have suggested, by calling them together work in co-operation with them in the solving of their problems. In reference to the subject of the cooperation of the Commonwealth and the States, I anticipate from the experience we have had in the past that we shall not find any great difficulty in securing the fullest co-operation of the various State Departments, in respect to the activities of this kind that have so far been carried on, and I am satisfied that, in regard to new problems, we shall also be able to secure their full co-operation. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Has any definite basis for that co-operation yet been arranged ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I must say "Yes" and "No" to that question.- The Advisory Council had no real administrative . power, but they worked in co-operation with the State Departments wherever cooperation was found possible. There has been no definite basis laid down. Each problem has been treated as it arose according to the peculiar conditions it presented. I give the following instances of matters in connexion with which the States have co-operated with the Advisory Council of Science and Industry in investigations that have so far been undertaken. In New South Wales, in connexion with the prickly-pear scheme; the white-ant pest; cattle tick dips; worm nodules disease; forest products; sorghum for alcohol; tanning methods; yeasts and bread making; blowfly pest; and macrozamia. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- What is that? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The macrozamia is a kind of palm from which, I think, resin and alcohol are extracted. {: .speaker-KGV} ##### Mr Hay: -- No, the macrozamia is another species altogether. The grass tree is the plant from which the gum is extracted. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In Victoria the Advisory Council have co-operated with the State Departments in connexion with viticultural problems at Mildura; pottery investigations; contagious abortion in cattle; paper pulp investigations; and tuberculosis in stock. We have co-operated with Queensland in connexion with the prickly pear; cotton growing; blow-fly" pest; castor beans; mangrove bark tanning; mechanical cotton picker; and the cattle tick pest. In South Australia the subjects have been grass-tree resin, tuberculosis in stock, and paper pulp investigations; in Western Australia, clays and pottery, paper pulp, forest products, cattle tick pest, Kimberley horse disease ; and in Tasmania, tuberculosis in stock. Honorable members will notice that cattle tick, for instance, is a problem common to the States of Queensland, New South Wales, and Western Australia, each of which is acting in co-operation with the Commonwealth. Of course, there is no necessity for the States of Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania, in which this problem has not yet arisen to any extent, to participate in these investigations. Generally speaking, we found the States not only willing but most anxious to cooperate with us. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Some honorable members, whilst ready to support the Bill, are anxious to avoid financial duplication, and we thought that a definite basis of co-operation had been arranged. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is extremely difficult to arrange what the honorable member calls a definite basis of co-operation. 1 think that all that is possible is that when a particular problem arises, we shall approach the States, and say, " Can you co-operate with us in this matter?" Having got their answers we are then free to proceed. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Suppose that the States will not co-operate? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Director has then to determine, after consultation with his Minister and advisers, whether in all the circumstances it is desirable, in the public interests, that the Institute should proceed with a particular investigation. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- In other words, if the States have determined to deal with this problem the Institute will co-operate with them ; otherwise, it will start on its own account. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Each matter must he determined on its merits. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Co-operation depends vitally on. the attitude of Federal Ministers to the States. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- A Federal Minister has so many other sins laid at his door that it is a hardship to make that additional charge against him. I assure honorable members that there is an anxiety on the part of the Commonwealth and the States to co-operate in these matters, and I have instanced problems in regard to which we have already had full cooperation. The tick problem is one of them. Both New South Wales and Queensland had been carrying on scientific investigations, and Western Australia was doing something, although not very much. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- Western Australia was doing a great deal. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- At any rate, all three States were doing something, and they were only too glad that the scientific side of the investigation should be taken over by one body. This arrangement did not interfere for a moment with those active practical operations which the States were conducting. The Commonwealth did not attempt to take over from New South Wales and Queensland their tick administration. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- Did the Commonwealth duplicate the work the States were doing ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No; it was agreed that certain scientific problems which the tick question presented should be investigated by the Institute of Science and Industry in co-operation with the State authorities. Such a co-operative effort must mean a concentration of brains, which will, in the long run,, give better results than would the continuance of independent investigations. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If a State finds itself unable to meet the expense of continuing such investigations, does the Commonwealth, before taking up the problem, arrange to get the benefit of the past work done by the State? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That has been done on all occasions. Once an agreement has been made to co-operate in respect of any particular problem, the whole of the ascertained data is placed at the disposal of the Committee of scientific experts who are called upon to deal with the matter. Armed with that knowledge, the Committee commences its researches. After all, scientific investigation is largely a process of elimination. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is so; but we wish to avoid the expenditure of money on ground that has been already trodden. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Expenditure of that kind is avoided. For instance," in dealing with the tick problem, the expert Committee will not start *de novo,* ignoring those results which have been already worked out. They will have regard to the history of previous investigations, which have given perhaps negative results, or results which, whilst not actually positive, yet give hope that further research along the same lines will lead to a definite discovery. At times it is right to go over a certain area of the ground previously covered in order to pick up the connecting link before proceeding. The Government are just as anxious to avoid unnecessary expenditure in the field of scientific research as anywhere else. I feel confident that if we get at the head of this Institute the right type of man - one who has the sense to discriminate between what may be called merely abstract scientific research, which will lead to no practical result, and other research, which is intensely practical, and aims at definite practical end3, a man with the necessary broadmindedness, scientific training, and business and administrative ability - we shall have very little difficulty in steering clear of that avoidable expenditure which yields no commercial result. Nobody recognises better than I do that in this field of scientific research it is possible to engage in an orgy of expenditure which will lead to no practical good. At the same time, one has to admit that the world owes to abstract scientific investigation some of the greatest discoveries of modern times. What we are actually aiming at is that all scientific investigation undertaken through the agency of this Institute shall be directed towards solving the practical problems which. Australian industries, primary and secondary, present to us every day in the week. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The whole world is engaged in the solution of the problems of the secondary industries. Therefore this Institute will get the best results by concentrating its efforts on the problems of primary production. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I agree with the honorable member that, particularly in *iti* initial stages, the Institute should concentrate its efforts upon agricultural and pastoral problems as far as possible. At the same time, I would not for a moment suggest that there are not immediate and pressing problems in regard to the secondary industries which the Institute should, as far as its funds permit, investigate. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In America each item of investigation i3 first justified, and than an apportionment for a particular investigation is made each year. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If we were to present to this House estimates in proportion to our population, based on the American expenditure upon similar work, honorable members would hesitate a long time before voting the necessary -money. I wish to refer briefly to the provisions of the Bill itself. This measure differs in two main particulars from its predecessor, which was passed through another place and explained in this House. Firstly, it provides for only one Director, instead of three. Reasons of economy have led to that alteration, and we also thought that possibly we should be overloading the Institute at the outset by appointing three directors. I do not mean to say that it will not be necessary for the Director to have one or two expert advisers; on the contrary, I think that such advice will be necessary. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Why have the Government adopted the principle of one Director in connexion with this Bill, when in the Repatriation Act they provided for three Commissioners ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The two measures deal with entirely different problems. Moreover, the honorable member will recollect that the creation of three Repatriation Commissioners was at the special request of the returned soldiers. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr Bell: -- Pardon me. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It was done at the special request of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League. I was present at the interview ait which that request was preferred. The deputationists asked for representation upon that Commission, and I understand that the man whom they themselves had selected has been appointed. However, that has nothing ito do with this measure. The Government propose to appoint one Director. I hope we shall be able to find a man suited for that difficult post. We want a person of first class ability whose appointment will commend itself, particularly to , those various bodies with which the Director will be intimately associated, if his work is to be productive of the good anticipated. We have deleted from this Bill the matter of the appointment of advisory councils, for reasons which I have already given. The Government highly appreciate the services which quite a number of gentlemen rendered under very difficult conditions while working with a temporary institute, when it was found inadvisable to permit them to launch out in directions, possibly very necessary, but in regard to which it was felt they should not proceed until Parliament had given sanction to this measure. Debate (on motion by **Mr. Tudor)** adjourned. {: .page-start } page 2578 {:#debate-26} ### NAVIGATION BILL {:#subdebate-26-0} #### Second Reading Debate resumed from 1st July *(vide* page 2507), on motion by **Mr. Greene** - >That this Bill be now read a second time. {: #subdebate-26-0-s0 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- Navigation Bills, in some such form as this measure, have been before this Parliament practically ever since the Federal Legislature was inaugurate-!. The present measure is due to various maritime conferences, but even today the Navigation Bill passed in 1912 is not in operation as a Statute of this country. That is largely due to the war. Certain parts, I understand, have been put into operation. In respect to this matter, the Government should state just how the Navigation Bill really stands to-day, and should indicate what parts, if any, are in actual operation. *"When the* seamen's strike was in existence, about this time last year, it was stated that if the Navigation Act were proclaimed it might have an important bearing upon the settlement of the dispute. I have already stated, when dealing with another matter, that during the past twelve months I have travelled around tha Australian coast in various coastal vessels in which the accommodation for the crews was absolutely disgraceful. An ordinarily built man could not turn over in his bunk. It will be scarcely credited that such conditions could exist to-day. The Navigation Bill is different from any ordinary measure, in that it does not call for the assent of the GovernorGeneral, but must be sent to England for the Royal assent. The British Parliament will not errant to any of the Dominions the right to legislate upon the matter of navigation without referring the proposed Statute to the Imperial authorities. It is to be expected, therefore, that even the present Bill, when it has passed, will be hung up for some time, No immediate relief can be expected from this measure in regard to the present treatment of crews on our coastal vessels. It is a disgrace to some of the wealthy shipping companies of Australia, which take every opportunity to increase freights and fares, that such conditions as I saw should exist. At least 95 per cent, of the industrial workers to-day have failed to obtain the improved conditions which they have sought by any other means than by fighting for them, and the same, it appears, must apply to the seamen. Owing to the shortage of shipping, the Government, in some cases recently, have given reluctant permission for the sale of certain vessels off the coastal trade, but on the strict condition that new vessels shall be constructed or purchased to take their place. I learned only last week, however, that a certain company which had obtained permission' to make a sale from among its coastal fleet, on condition that they replaced it with a modern vessel, had failed to fulfil its obligation in the matter. During the war, nearly the whole of our best Inter-State ships were sent oversea on transport and other service, and very many have not yet returned to Australian waters. One of the reasons why the effects of the recent drought have been so severely felt is that there has been a shortage of coastal shipping. To-day, the shortage of coal, owing to the lack of colliers upon our coast, has involved a consequent shortage of wood supplies, for wood has had to take the place of coal in many instances. Colliers have been sold off our coastal service, and have not been replaced. In to-day's press, there is a report 0;f a deputation which waited on the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene),** at which seamen complained that the vessels constructed for the Commonwealth Government are not being built in accordance with the provisions of the Navigation Bill, in the matter of accommodation for crews. I hope, for the honour of the Government; that that statement is not correct. The Government should be a model employer; it should set an example, and should not construct ships which fail to fulfil the condition's laid down' in the Government's own legislation. It has been stated that, in relation to the proclamation of the Navigation Bill of 1912, unless exemption is granted with respect to certain ports - for example, from Fremantle up along the north-west coast - the trade of that portion' of Australia will be entirely destroyed; no vessels will call there. That argument cannot be applied, however, to the greater portion of the Australian coast, at any rate, between Fremantle and Cairns, or Thursday Island. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The difficulty is that there ia not sufficient shipping to handle the trade. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I have already indicated that that is the trouble, but I understand that certain owners have been permitted to sell ships which have been serving on the Australian coast, and have not fulfilled the condition laid down by the Government with respect to replacement. The Minister for Trade and Customs, in the course of his second reading speech, indicated that the provisions of the Navigation Bill passed in 1912 were such, in respect to their vital portions, that, despite that they were framed prior to the convention which followed the wreck of the *Titanic,* it has not been thought necessary to make any material alterations. That is to say, our Navigation Bill anticipated some of the most important features of the convention of January, 1914. Although the House of Commons passed a measure as an outcome of that convention, I believe it has not yet been given effect to; the reason in this case also is that the war intervened. I do not approve of one amendment indicated by the Minister, in relation to wireless equipment. Section 231 of the 1912 measure states - >Except as prescribed, every foreign-going ship, Australian-trade ship, or ship engaged in the coasting trade, carrying fifty or more persons, including passengers and crew, shall, before going to sea from any port in Australia, be equipped with an efficient apparatus for wireless communication in good working order in charge of one or more persons holding prescribed certificate's of skill in the use of such apparatus. The lives of the crew are just as valuable as the lives of any passengers may be. If there is to be any limitation at all the clause should provide for a wireless installation on vessels carrying twelve or more persons, including crew. I am appealing for the men employed on these vessels. At present they are not provided for. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If the honorable member will read the clause again, he will find that they are. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- There are more wrecks amongst cargo vessels than passenger ships. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The clause which takes the place of the original section provides that wireless shall be installed on vessels carrying twelve or more passengers, and of not less than 1,600 tons register. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Many ships, colliers particularly, carry more than fifty persons, including firemen, greasers, engineers, seamen, and officers. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- As a matter of fact the Bill is more liberal than the Act, because if there is a crew of fifty, a vessel will be of more than 1,600 tons register. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I am glad to have that assurance, but I believe the seamen fear the Bill is not so liberal as the Act. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Well, I have the assurance of practical men that it is. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- If there is any doubt upon the point, why not put the question beyond all doubt? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- This matter is viewed from different angles by different persons. I am only anxious that the provisions should be as liberal as possible. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- They are more liberal than those of the original Act. The representatives of the seamen, accompanied by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports **(Mr. Mathews),** saw me concerning the Bill, and they did not raise the point referred to by the honorable member at all. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I have received the following letter from the general secretary of the Federated Seamen's Union: - >Goulburn-street, Sydney., May 10, 1920. Dear **Sir,** I am instructed by my executive council to write you and point out that, on behalf of the seamen of Australia, we shall be thankful if you offer our protest against any amendment of the Navigation Act which would enable ships carrying less than ten passengers to leave port without a wireless installation. We hold that the lives of the crew are of as much importance as the lives of an equal number of passengers, and, therefore, we trust that you will endeavour to safeguard the interests of the seamen by insisting that all ships engaged in the coastal trade shall be fitted with wireless telegraphy. Yours faithfully, Thomas Walsh. It might be said that some vessels engaged on the coastal trade, such as those on the run between Sydney and Newcastle, are only a few hours out of port, and, therefore, do not require a wireless installation; but I think that all vessels should be equipped with wireless. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- Would the seamen prefer the provisions of the original Act to this Bill? {: #subdebate-26-0-s1 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I do not know, but the honorable member will admit that we ought to be prepared to face the situation. When the Act was passed in 1912 wireless was in its infancy, and as we have progressed since then, we should now provide every safeguard possible. Probably 90 per cent. of all vessels in the Australian trade are already equipped with wireless. It is very necessary that ships crossing Bass Strait should have a wireless installation, because very few vessels are met with on that run. Only the other day we had evidence of the value of wireless, an oil steamer which was short of coal being able to communicate with vessels that were sent out to search for her; and it is possible that the Government steamer *Endeavour* would not have been lost had she been equipped with wireless. *Sittinq suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.* {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- When we adjourned for dinner I was speaking of the necessity of equipping all vessels with wireless telegraphy. The Convention which was signed in London in January, 1914, provided, in article 41, practically in the terms of our own original Act, that all vessels carrying fifty or more persons should be so equipped. That article is as follows: - >All merchant ships belonging to any of the contracting States, whether they are propelled by machinery or by sails, and whether they carry passengers or not, shall, when engaged on the voyages specified in Article 2, be fitted with a radio-telegraph installation, if they have on board fifty or more persons in all. That, as I say, largely follows section 231 of our principal Act, and I am assured by the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** that the amending clause in the Bill goes even further, providing, as it does, that vessels which carry much fewer persons, and all vessels over 1,600 tons gross register, shall carry wireless. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- For instance, the Howard Smith colliers on our coast of 4,000 tons or so, which carry crews of thirty-seven and forty-two, will be obliged to carry wireless, and, in addition, every vessel over 1,600 tons gross register must be so equipped. ( Under the original Act none of the vessels I have mentioned are compelled to carry wireless;. but under the Bill all must do so. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- That is a step in the right direction. As pointed out by the honorable member for East Sydney **(Mr. West),** three vessels on the New South Wales coast were totally lost, and not one of these carried passengers. The Seamen's Association consider that the sailors are of equal importance with the passengers, and that they also should have the advantage of wireless. I am not clear as to how much of the Navigation Act is in operation at the present time, but I know that a certain portion of it has been proclaimed. Those honorable members who were here when that measure was before the House know that there are three distinct classes of vessels in the definition section, and that the limited coasting trade and the coasting trade represent two distinct classes of ships and ocean-going vessels. The signatories to the Convention provided that wireless should be installed on vessels going from a port of one country to a port of another country, and that, in the case of Great Britain and France, would mean a distance of only 30 miles. {: #subdebate-26-0-s2 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The British Act, which is based on the Convention, has gone beyond that, and provided that vessels trading around the coast of the British Isles shall carry wireless; and we are following in the same direction. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- That is a proper step. One result of the war has been to make, the whole of the shipping companies more careful in regard to life-saving provision; and when we were dealing with our original measure it was brought under my notice that on only about one day in five is it possible to launch a boat at sea. {: .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr Burchell: -- And there must also be additional rafts and boats. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- That is so. No doubt vessels are now better equipped for emergencies than they were before the war. There is no reason, however, why we should not go beyond what the Merchant Shipping Act provides. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- 'Why should we not lead in regard to wireless as in other matters? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- The Minister assures me that the Bill makes better provision in this regard than was made in the original Act. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Even that may not be good enough. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Quite so. The Convention, which was held as the outcome of the *Titanic* disaster, largely followed the Australian Navigation Act, and, as the Minister stated, very few material alterations are necessary in our Act to meet the requirements of the Convention. Article 16 of the Convention, which we have not followed, states - - For the application of the Articles contained in this chapter and in the corresponding part of the regulations annexed hereto, the ships defined in Article 2 are divided into " new ships " and " existing ships." New ships are those the keel of which is laid after the 1st July, 1915. The following Articles of this chapter, namely, Articles 17 to 30, are applicable to them in full. Other ships are considered as existing ships. Existing arrangements on each of these ships shall be considered by the Administration of the State to which the ship belongs, with a view to -improvements providing increased safety where practicable and reasonable. In Article 39 it is provided - >For the application of the Articles contained in this chapter and of the corresponding part of the regulations annexed hereto, the ships defined in Article 2 are divided into new ships and existing ships. > >New ships are those of which the keel is laid after the 31st December, 1914. > >Other ships are considered as existing ships. It will be observed that the two dates are different. I think that, so far as new ships are concerned, we should make provision not only for life-saving and for protection against fire, but also for the accommodation of the crew. Section 39 of the original Act provides in relation to the rating of seamen - >A superintendent before whom a seaman is engaged shall refuse to enter a seaman as A.B., O.S., greaser, or fireman in the agreement, unless the seaman gives to him satisfactory proof of his title to be so rated. By clause 13 of the Bill it is proposed to amend that section by providing - {: type="1" start="3"} 0. No seaman shall be rated as "greaser" who has not served six months as fireman at sea. 1. No seaman shall be rated as " fireman" who has not served six months as a trimmer or fireman at sea. 2. No seaman shall be rated as " shipwright " or " ship's carpenter . " who has not served an apprenticeship as shipwright, or three years at sea as ship's carpenter, as the case may be. 3. After the expiration of twelve months from the commencement of this Division, a seaman shall not be permitted to engage in any capacity unless he satisfies the superintendent that he can pull an oar and handle a boat: Provided that this sub-section shall not apply to the engagement of a seaman who has not previously served at sea. What I take exception to is the following provision in the clause: - {: type="1" start="7"} 0. Notwithstanding anything contained in this section, persons rated as greasers, firemen, shipwrights, or ship's carpenters, before the commencement of this Division, shall continue to be entitled to be so rated. After all, if a boat gets stove in, only the shipwright or the carpenter can do the repairing work; and the shipwrights and ships' carpenters point out that if men are employed with no practical experience, it will be like living in a fools' paradise. The superintendent, or the man in charge at the port, should not give a certificate or clearance to any but practicalmen. I realize that this is not in any sense a party measure: and I am anxious to see the whole of the Navigation Act proclaimed without further delay, so that all concerned - seamen and passengers alike - may enjoy its advantages. An exception has been granted to vessels on the north-west coast of Australia; and it is possible that, unless this were so, there would be no shipping trading from Premantle to Broome and Geraldton, and so on, to Singapore. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is a weakness in the Bill that a concession has to be made. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- It is felt that if a concession is made in relation to certain ports of Australia, similar concessions may be granted to other ports. The question of the employment of coolie and other coloured labour is being discussed at the Seamen's Conference now sitting at Genoa, and there is a fear that if certain vessels are allowed to employ such labour, application for its employment in other directions may be made. However, the seamen, no doubt realizing the difficulties on the north-west coast, have not, I think, offered any objection to the exemption, though they have a fear such as I have just expressed. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The conditions there are abnormal. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- They are. Persons have been given permission by the Government to sell ships for other than thecoasting trade on condition that they are replaced by modern, uptodate vessels; but one of the big shipping firms here which received permission to sell a vessel that was engaged in our coastal trade has not replaced it. We all know that on account of the abnormal conditions which have obtained during recent years, steamers which were constructed for £8 per ton fully equipped, have been sold for from £70 to £80 per ton. {: .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr Burchell: -- No vessels which were engaged in trade along the northwest coast of Western Australia have been sold. Mr.TUDOR. - That is so. But the shipping companies should be kept up to the agreement into which they entered with the Government to replace vessels that may be taken off the coast as soon as possible. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- Are there any penalties at tached to their failure to carry out that agreement? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I do not know. They were all anxious to sell vessels, because in China and elsewhere they were able to find a ready market for ships for which it would be difficult to obtain a sea-going certificate to-day. Vessels which had been lying up creeks and on mud-banks in other parts of the world, and which had practically been relegated to the scrapheap were brought into service once more because of the shortage of shipping caused during the war. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- "We are well rid of many of them. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- But that fact does not dispose of my statement that we are short of shipping in Australia to-day. As a former seaman, the honorable member knows that the law relating to that class requires to be improved. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Admitting that, suppose that every country enacted special navigation laws of its own, how would the world's shipping get on ? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- The honorable member must know that the Convention which was held in London after the .wreck of the *Titanic,* and to which such pointed reference was made the other evening by the Minister for Trade and Customs, was representative of the chief maritime nations of the world. I regret that there are not sufficient copies of that Convention available to permit of every honorable member being supplied with one. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am objecting to the diversity of laws which would be operative under the conditions I have indicated. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- If the honorable member will read the Convention in question he will see what' it did in 1914, prior to the outbreak of war, was practically to. bring the navigation laws of other countries into conformity with the law which we enacted in 1912. The men employed upon our ships who do the most' laborious work have not been treated as they should have been, and I desire to see their accommodation improved. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- Any improvements which have been effected in . their conditions have been due to their own organization. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I stated that earlier in the debate. I am merely asking that those conditions should be stabilized, and that we should place upon our statute-book a Navigation Act which will be as up-to-date as was the Navigation Act' of 1912. In Committee I shall move an amendment in regard to shipwrights, but if the Minister will give me an assurance in regard to the installation of wireless telegraphy on board our coastal vessels, there will be no need for me to move an amendment in that connexion. {: #subdebate-26-0-s3 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier -- I have not the slightest intention of discussing the technical details of this Bill, but I wish to say a few words concerning the northern part of Western Australia and the restrictions which may unintententionally be placed upon trade there - restrictions which may be detrimental Ito the best interests of the Commonwealth. I thank the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** very much for having, at my request, and in the interests of those who are pioneering Australia, withheld the proclamation of the Navigation Act, and for having brought forward an amendment which will enable him during these abnormal times to extend some consideration to the trade of the north 'and north-western portions of Western Australia: Had the Act been brought into operation without the .amendments which are contemplated in this Bill, we should have absolutely crippled, and possibly have destroyed, the whole of the settlement in the northern parts of Western Australia. The proposed amendments to section 96 of the principal Act, which will empower the Minister to grant exemptions in certain cases, may very well be enlarged without in any way imperilling the efficiency of the Bill. I feel sure that honorable members opposite, who wish to make the measure as complete as possible, have no desire to destroy settlement in the northern parts of this country. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The seamen do not desire to do that. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- If honorable members were familiar with the conditions which obtain in the northern parts of Australia, they would not be so insistent in connexion with many matters "which pertain to the policy of a White Australia, and would be disposed to make certain small concessions to those who are compelled to develop the northern parts of this country- {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Nobody objects to that. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The shipping position in Australia at the present time is undoubtedly abnormal. I am very glad that the Minister is to be empowered to proclaim the Navigation Act piecemeal, and I would like to clothe him with ample authority to grant concessions until the shipping trade of Australia once more becomes normal. A little while ago, a ' terrible drought was experienced in Queensland and New South Wales. Whilst that drought was in progress enormous quantities of fodder were lying in Western Australia, and surely it would have been almost criminal if ships coming from other countries, and calling at Fremantle, had been prevented from bringing that fodder to the eastern States. The Minister should have some power in. that direction. I wish now to refer to an incident which came under my notice whilst I was a member of the Pearling Commission, and which should induce this Parliament to do all possible to ameliorate the conditions of the settlers. Whilst taking evidence from a postmaster regarding the climatic conditions which obtained in the northern part of Western Australia, we were assured that, amongst other things, it was his duty to keep meteorological records, and that his reading of the dry and wet bulbs disclosed that, on many summer evenings, there was 92 per cent, of moisture present in the atmosphere. He added that it was possible for a white man to live in such a climate, but that the life of a woman who had to go into the kitchen was a perfect hell. Now we are asking people to settle in these remote areas, and to build up this country. I am extremely desirous of extending facilities to those who are pioneering these places. Freezing works have been established at Wyndham, and similar works are about to be started at Carnarvon and Geraldton. T believe that most of the northern ports could suppport works of this sort, and if they were established, treble the quantity of stock could be carried in that portion of the country. The report of the party which recently traversed the north-western portion of that State shows the wonderful extent of territory that we have, there, and the enormous numbers of sheep and cattle that it would carry if there were a near market for this stock. In order to build up that area, I believe that the Government would be justified in offering a bonus with a view to attracting ships to that particular coast for the purpose of bringing fresh and frozen meat to the southern portions of this country, and giving increased facilities for settlement. It is quite impossible for us to retain that great territory unless we people and develop it, and some special effort should be made in this direction. The provision contained in this Bill, under which the Minister will be enabled to grant permits to continue in the service boats at present trading on that coast, until such time as other shipping is available, meets with my warm commendation. But I do hope that he will agree to a small amendment under which, instead of making these permits returnable in' six months, the period will be extended to twelve months. Shipping companies require to make their contracts some time ahead, and a. period of six months is scarcely long enough; though, when granting these permits, the Minister should insist upon all the coastal ports being served. I think we are making a great mistake in insisting upon white men going into the stokehold of vessels employed around the Queensland coast or the northern coast of Western Australia. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- It would be all right if the vessels burned oil fuel. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- That would make an enormous difference, but we have not yet oil fuel vessels in the service, though I would not be surprised at oil being discovered in the nor'-west. The tropical conditions are so severe that it is impossible to get the same class of labour in the northern as can be obtained in the southern parts of Australia. Honorable members must extend some consideration to those persons, who, apart from severe climatic conditions, have to face immense difficulties in. connexion with drought, in the matter of obtaining necessary supplies, and the absence of all the amenities of civilization. I trust that, in this Bill, the Minister will make the small concession for which I have asked. {: #subdebate-26-0-s4 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- Hitherto .there has been a. good deal of sentiment surrounding the men who go down to the sea in ships. Much poetry has been written upon the beauties attaching to a sailor's life. Indeed, upon one occasion, the British Government specially subsidized a poet to write songs of the sea with a view to inducing the young men of the Old Country to embark upon a maritime calling. To the seamen themselves, however, there is very little sentiment connected with their avocation. On the contrary, very strong language is frequently used in regard to it. I intend to discuss this question from the stand-point of the seamen themselves, and not from that of a first class passenger in the saloon of a well-appointed ship. A long time back what were known as coffin ships were very much in evidence. Some owners used to insure their vessels and have them sunk in order to get the insurance money. The lives of the seamen were never considered. Conditions in the past were so horrible that it is a wonder men were got to work on ships. I suppose the sentiment with which a seaman's life was surrounded induced some men to go to sea, and crews were often recruited from boys who wished to get away from the Old Country. The conditions which prevailed were, however, so bad that I think many of the men must have been brought very close to the edge of starvation before they consented to sign on. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- They were brought very close to starvation afterwards. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Exactly. We all know that the services of crimps were . used to man ships, and we are told that this evil is still in existence. After all that has been attempted, from the day of Plimsoll down to the present, to render ships safe and to provide for the safety of those who go down to the sea, the difficulties and trials of sailors are still great, although not so bad as formerly. The Minister **(Mr. Greene)** in introducing the Bill alluded to the fact that, with all his ingenuity, man had not succeeded in building an unsinkable vessel. We know that many million pounds' have been spent on well appointed ships, but any special provision made has been for the benefit of the passengers, and not of the crews. I hold that for the limited time passengers are on board ship they could put up with a little discomfort, and that full provision should be made for those who are obliged to live permanently on the sea. We all admit now that the seaman is a human being and ought to be considered, just as his fellow men are. Hence our attempt to bring in a navigation law to improve his conditions. Other nations have followed in our footsteps.. The International Conference is following very closely the Bill which we passed in 1912 but never proclaimed, bub we are informed that the delegates to that Conference, while recognising that our law does not contain too many provisions for the benefit of seamen, are indicating where many improvements could bo effected. It is now proposed that portions of Australia shall be exempted from the operations of the Navigation Act. The western coast, for instance, is to be exempted. But there ought to be some limitations in this regard. I have no desire to isolate the people on any particular portion of the Australian coast, which would be the case if the exemptions were not made, unless the Government chose to run their own ships, but my contention is that we ought to demand from every country in the world that conditions should be provided on their ships which would obviate the necessity for making these exemptions. They ought to be asked to see that their standard is that which we have laid down in our Act. However, our seamen will see to this. They have no desire to interfere with the position of people on any part of our coast, but at the same time they contend that these exemptions from the operationof the Act should not be used to their detriment. Recently I introduced a deputation of seamen to the Minister **(Mr. Greene),** who was very courteous in listening to what they had to say, and promised to give their representations consideration, but it was the usual stereotyped reply. I hope that the consideration given totheir requests will be satisfactory to them. One thing they complained about was that they should have been consulted before this Navigation Bill was submitted to Parliament. In days gone by the employer always said that it was not the place of the workmen to interfere with his business. He ran his own business, and would not let a workman interfere with it. But that day hasgone. Weare in a new world, and the employers recognise that the man who works for wages will demand, and, in fact, has demanded and received, better terms than were conceded to him in the past. I hope that the workers will continue to demand and get better terms until their position is improved. But there is only one method by which their conditions may be improved, and that is by consulting them when anything in which they are interested is under consideration by a Government or any one else. The sailors contend very rightly that they should have been considered in this case. They claim that they are at the mercy of shoremen. Parliamentary representatives of seaport towns are mostly men who have never been to sea, and while they may exercise the ordinary amount of common sense with the opportunities they get of seeing the conditions on ships, and how essential it is to improve them, they can by no stretch of imagination place themselves in the position; of the seamen themselves. They can only do so by actual experience of the conditions under which these men are asked to work. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD Smith: -- When the Navigation Bill was under consideration there were three honorable members who worked on it - Messrs. Archibald, Roberts, and Guthrie - who were essentially practical men; in fact, three more practical men could not be found in Australia. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- That is quite correct, and the Bill passed in 1912 was the best we could get up to that time; but since then the world has advanced marvellously. The British Government, who felt that we were bringing into operation something, that might work against their mercantile marine, are now asking that the conditions of seamen should be raised to the standard that was brought about by the war. We now realize the fact that no vessel can go to sea without seamen: That being the case, the men were perfectly justified in claiming that before the introduction of this Bill, they or their representatives should have been consulted. The secretary of the seamen asked the Minister, " How would the farming community like to have laws made for them without first consul tin r them or their representatives?" {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- We have never been consulted. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I have been in this Parliament for thirteen years, and day after day for the whole of that period I have heard appeals from the farmers. There were always plenty of friends of the farmers in this Parliament. It was a marvel to me that there was any necessity for forming a Farmers party. I want to show how essential it was to have consulted the seamen. Since the Navigation Bill was passed in 1912 the Commonwealth Government have built ships in different parts of Australia, but the conditions provided for the sailors on the vessels launched at Williamstown are not as good as those on the old Austral line purchased by the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes).** That statement was made by the seamen to the Minister **(Mr. Greene).** They gave the dimensions of the accommodation provided. They explained how, in regard to the diningroom for the seamen, if a man went inside and sat down to a meal, he could not get out again until the other men nearer the door had finished and gone outside. And this is the result of our efforts, although the desires of the seamen for improved conditions have been known to us. When the demand is put forward that better provision should be provided for sailors, the argument is advanced that the structural arrangements of the vessels prevent improvements of the character being effected. {: .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr Burchell: -- Does the honorable member say that the Commonwealth vessels are not built in conformity with the conditions laid down in the Navigation Act? . {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I am telling the honorable member what the position is. It is the seamen who make this statement, and if it is to continue there will be trouble. {: .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr Burchell: -- The honorable member does not say that the vessels have not been built in conformity with the Navigation Act. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- My contention is that if the Act has produced the conditions which the sailors say it has, and if these vessels with this accommodation comply with the provisions of the Act, we might as well tear up that measure and start all over again. There are probably men who still consider that the sailors are asking for too much. The seaman does not go on a voyage for the sake of his health, or for a holiday. When he is on a ship he has to work. He is away from his home, and is obliged to conform to certain conditions. His liberty is circumscribed. He can hardly be said to be on a parallel with other individuals. Once he signs articles he is in the power of the master of the vessel. There are provisions in the Navigation Act which make it a crime for a sailor to do what men on shore would be rewarded for doing. The seamen admit that insubordination must be prevented. They realize that, to a certain degree, people's lives, even their own, are at stake 'when insubordination arises, but they contend that the conditions under which they work should be such as would not produce insubordination or mutiny. 1 do not think they are asking too much in this respect. If their request is not conceded there will be trouble. I am not talking about any intention to strike or anything of that sort. If the men who will be compelled to work under the provisions of this measure are not satisfied, a strong attempt will doubtless be made by them to improve their conditions, and quite recently we had an example of their determination. It is the duty of honorable members to see that the conditions under which these men work are such that they shall be assured of a reasonable amount of comfort - much more than sailors have had in the past - and if this is not done there is sure to be trouble. In connexion with the construction and manning of ships that have to pass through the tropics, provision is being made for the supply of ice-chests to preserve meat and other commodities. But ice-chests are useless in the tropics, as the meat becomes putrid. Under these circumstances, it will be necessary for the seamen to revert to the " bully beef," used in Nelson's time. As ice-chests are of little use in tropical regions, it is necessary that a refrigerating plant should be installed on all ships, so that the seamon can be assured of receiving supplies of fresh food. Even if ice-chests are supplied, it is more than probable, according to the statements made by the men, that they will be placed in the vicinity of the boilers. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- I have seen men sleeping in the vicinity of the boilers when ships have been in the tropics. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- That is so. In my youthful days I understood, and since then the impression has been confirmed, that of all the " hell " ships afloat, the American vessels were the worst. Most of us have read of the dastardly actions of American ship-masters in ill-treating their men - as has been the case on some ships in the British Navy - :and if we make the conditions too stringent, our ships will be placed at a disadvantage as compared with those of other maritime nations. The United States of America holds an important position as regards her mercantile marine, but I believe that on some American vessels the degree of comfort is not up to the British standard. I have heard sailors speak of the hardships they have experienced on American vessels ; but conditions must be changing, because I have had a document handed to me which was. drawn up by **Mr. P.** J. Aldous, the secretary of the Port Phillip Shipwrights Association, setting out full particulars of the accommodation provided on the American steamer *Liberty,* which recently arrived from America. This -is not an isolated case, and it proves conclusively that American ship-owners are making the conditions so good for the seamen that we shall have to make very drastic changes if we desire to reach their standard. For the information of honorable members, I quote the following statement concerning the steam-ship *Liberty, to* which 1 have referred : - {: .page-start } page 2587 {:#debate-27} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-27-0} #### S.S. LIBERTY Seamen's Quarters (under poop). - To accommodate 12 seamen. Size, 34 feet by 13 feet by 7 ft. 6 in., approximately 276 cubic feet per man (twice as much as ours). Berths - iron spring beds, supplied with bed and bedding, which is changed once a week. Berths situated six at each end, leaving a space of 18 feet in the centre, where an ash table, 12 feet by 2 feet was placed, also 12 steel lockers, one for each man, dimensions, 3 feet by 1 ft. 3 in. by 1 ft. 8 in. Ventilation - 5 12-in. port-holes, one ventilator, and fly or screen door. Four double electric lights, 25 candle-power each. Two fans for cooling purposes. Four radiators for beating. Hess Boom for Seamen and Firemen. - Size, 17 feet by 15 ft. 6 in. by 7 ft. 6 in. Two ash tables, 10 feet by 2 feet - sailors one table, firemen the other. All pantry appliances, racks, and lockers for same. Three electric lights, fans, and radiators. Full-paid messroom steward, to keep everything in order. Carpenter and Boatswain's Accommodation. - Hoorn under poop, size, 11 feet by 9 feet by 7 ft. 6 in., approximately 370 cubic feet per man. Two bunks and one couch, upholstered in leather. Two drawers under each bunk, size, 2 ft. 9 in. by 2 feet by 1 foot. One skylight, 4 ft. 6 in. by 3 feet, to open right back, fly-proof netting. Bed and bedding supplied, and changed once a week. Four steel lockers, ' same as supplied to seamen. Five electric lights (25 candle-power), one arranged over each bunk for reading purposes. First class wash basin, and mirror in oak frame, 2 ft. 6 in. by 2 feet, with conveniences for shaving and toilet gear. High-class table on brass stand, underneath portion fitted with arrangement for holding glasses and decanter, size of table, 2 feet by 1 ft. 8 in. Brass spitoon. Fly or screen door, also panelled door, both fitted with double locks, also door curtain. Carpet and mats. Carpenter and Boatswain's Messing Accommodation. - Situated on hurricane deck. Steward to keep same in order. Carpenter's Shop. - Situated under forecastle head. Size, 15 feet by 7 feet by 8 feet. Bench fitted with one large-size quick-acting vice, also one quick-acting bench clamp vice. Lockers and racks for tools. Hospital. - Situated under forecastle head. Size, 15 ft. 6 in. by 13 ft. 6 in. by 7 ft. 6 in. Fitted with four berths. Hot and cold water. Plunge bath and shower and sanitary arrangements fitted in same (can be completely isolated). Toilet arrangements. Three electric lights, radiators, and fans. Carpenter and Boatswain's Bathroom. - Situated on hurricane deck. Hot and cold plunge bath, with shower, all other conveniences. Sanitary system. - Running water all the time throughout the ship. {: #subdebate-27-0-s0 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- No informaton is given on that point. I know that it would sound ridiculous to some of our crusty old Tories to suggest that accommodation such as that I have mentioned should be provided for "common" sailors, and probably there are some in our midst who would exclaim, " What rot ! " We are justified in claiming that men who have to earn their livelihood at sea should - have living conditions similar to those enjoyed by men employed ashore. Nobody can say that too much consideration has been shown to the men on the steamer *Liberty.* Seamen are rather afraid of Acts of Parliament, and the officials of the organization consider that they can read an Act that applies to sailors as well as any one else. The representatives of the seamen have perused this measure very carefully, and' have taken exception to certain clauses in it. Their views on these points have already been placed before the Minister for Trade and Customs, who allayed their fears as to the construction to be placed on some of its provisions. If the position is as the Minister stated, I think they will be satisfied; but they are rather afraid of the manner in which the measure is drafted, as they believe its provisions can be used in a way that will prove detrimental to them. Themen protest most strongly against the proposed alteration of the definition of " seaman " by the insertion of the following section after section 28 of the principal Act : - 28a. For the purposesof this division " sea man " and "apprentice include any person who is seeking employment as a seaman or apprentice (as the case may be), or who is engaged or supplied, or who is offered for engagement or supply as a seaman or apprentice on board a ship. This definition of " seaman " will, it is said, result in lowering the professional status of a seaman, and will, if enacted, be the means of causing ships to be manned with incompetent crews, thereby making them unseaworthy and endangering the lives of all on board. The seamen's representatives propose that the definition of seaman in Part I., section 6, of the principal Act, viz., " ' seaman ' means every person employed or engaged in any capacity oh board a ship, except masters, pilots, and apprentices, and persons temporarily on the ship in port," should be allowed to stand without any alteration. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The amendment will not have the effect they fear. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- At any rate, they are afraid of the wording, as they believe, in the event of trouble arising between the ship-owners and the seamen, that the captain or the marine authorities could place a crew on board that did not comprise experienced sea-going men. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It will not have that effect. I will explain these provisions more in detail when the measure is in Committee. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I am glad to have the Minister's assurance on that point. The conditions under which the men are working at present are such that they are justified in endeavouring to improve them, and it is hoped that nothing will beenacted that will be the means of endangering the lives of those on board by manning ships with incompetent crews. The representatives of the seamen are also anxious that sub-section 3 of section 136 of the principal Actshall be amended by striking out all the words after " crew " first occurring. That sub-section reads - The owner of every such ship shall provide such sanitary, hospital, and lavatory accommodation, including bathrooms, as, in the opinion of a qualified medical inspector nominated by the Minister, is sufficient for the requirements of the crew, and in the case of steam-ships the provision shall include an adequate supply of hot fresh water for the use of all members of the crew employed in connexion with the engines of the ship. The seamen's representatives are anxious that the concluding portion of the subsection shall be omitted, as they consider that every man who is engaged in working a ship should be entitled to use hot water for bathing purposes. I trust the Government will give careful attention to this suggestion, as it is one that is worthy of their consideration. There are a number of punitive clauses which relate particularly to cases of desertion. A sailor may be called a deserter if he failed to join his vessel when it left port, but there are many causes which may prevent a seaman from so doing. The punishment provided in this case is very severe. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- Why should a seaman be punished any more than an enginedriver ? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- -Exactly. The conditions have been stringent in the past, and owners of ships are afraid to allow seamen to have the liberties that are enjoyed by other individuals. Under the provisions of the Bill they can be fined to the extent of £20. {: .speaker-C7E} ##### Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920 -- The passengers, as well as the members of the crew, have to obey the captain. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I am not speaking of the time when ships are at sea. The seamen admit that while much is demanded of them at sea, It is unfair to enforce such penalties if they fail to join their ships. A man who does not go on board his ship when she is ready to sail can be fined £20. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- By whom? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The captain has that power. There are many other punishments to which sailormen object as unfair, and we shall endeavour to gelt them altered when the opportunity occurs. The demeanour of honorable members to-night shows that they consider that sailors deserve fair and just treatment; but I trust that when they come to details they will not be satisfied to make things merely better than they used to be; it would not be sufficient to do that at the stage of civilization which we have reached. I say to the members of the Country party,, and to the Ministeralists, that the prosperity of our farming and commercial interests is bound up with the well-being of our seamen. Undoubtedly Australia will continue to purchase or' build ships for the conducting of oversea traffic under her own control. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- And Inter-State traffic, too. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Yes. We have proved that it is foolish to lie at the mercy of ship-owners abroad. A great deal is being said about Lord Inchcape and his attempt to control the shipping of Australia. He even went so far as to threaten this Government because of the shipping lines which it owns. His conduct is enough to prove that our commercial and rural interests demand that Australia shall govern her own shipping. But if her ships are to succeed, the conditions on board them must be vastly superior to those which now obtain. Men, nowadays, are ready to resort to direct methods if they cannot otherwise secure what they want. Every part of the community is organizing to protect its rights, and the seamen, if their conditions are not improved, will themselves take action to improve them. Unfortunately we have the evidence of sailors themselves, that' even the vessels which have been constructed in Australia do not provide what they deem necessary in the way of accommodation. If that be so, how can shipowners elsewhere be expected to make adequate provision for those who man their ships? Merely from a selfish point of view it behoves the people of Australia to look after the interest of the sailors better than they have been looked after in the past, and to remember that those who cannot otherwise obtain what they deserve will resort to direct methods to get it. {: #subdebate-27-0-s1 .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART:
Wimmera -- I rise to support the appeal made by the Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Tudor),** and the honorable member for Melbourne Ports **(Mr. Mathews),** for the improvement of the conditions of our merchant seamen, particularly on the Australian coast. The latter put his finger on the spot when he said that the mere betterment of the conditions of the past would not suffice. What we should aim at is to put the seamen on an equality with those who live on shore. In trying to do that we must not take as a guide the conditions of British seamen. For a number of years *my* lot was cast among British seamen on British ships, and I speak moderately when I say that the conditions under which we lived were a disgrace to the British flag. Some years ago, in the early days of this Parliament, an inquiry into the condition of seamen was set on foot with a view to some alteration of the navigation laws. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- There was a Shipping Commission. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Of' which the present Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** was chairman. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- If my memory serves me, its inquiry was m'ade about 1904 or 1905. A Port Phillip pilot giving evidence before it said, among other things, that he would not send his dog to sea under the conditions which then existed; that British seamen were the worst fed in the world, and British captains, as a rule,. preferred foreign seamen, because they would stand more than British seamen. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- There is no doubt about that. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- When in Cardiff, some years afterwards, I was taken by a friend to one of the docks where a ship was signing on her crew, and at the gangway was the notice " No Britishers need apply." This was in a British port, bear *hi* mind. The captain made it a rule ito sign on none but foreigners, because Britishers gave too much trouble at sea. Most of those who have been to sea in British ships, particularly sailing ships, will corroborate my statement that, at the outbreak of the war, four-fifths of the men before the mast were foreigners, though most of the officers were Britishers. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- In some cases the officers under the captain were foreigners. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- In many cases. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- And a percentage of the captains were Germans. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- One of the reasons why conditions were so bad was that, notwithstanding the poetry about the sea to which the honorable member . for Melbourne Ports referred, English lads were not attracted to a sea life. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- What was the pay - £3 per month ? {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr STEWART: -- Less than that, in many cases. I signed on out of the port of Melbourne in 1905 for 50s. per month. The food, the wages, and the conditions on board ship were such that English lads were not attracted to the sea in any number, and consequently the British mercantile marine was largely manned by foreigners. The effect of this was seen, when , the war broke out, to be suicidal. Many a British ship during the war failed to reach port because of the foreign element in her crew. We want to guard against this with regard to our merchant seamen on the Australian coast, by making the conditions such as may attract our lads to sea. If we do that it will be better for everybody, and better for the nation, particularly in time of war. I was rather surprised, as I think the whole House was, to hear the statement of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports that the forecastle accommodation on the new Commonwealth steamships was unsatisfactory. I hope that statement will be inquired into, because it is rather an extraordinary one to make, and a scandalous thing if it is true. We in Australia should not set up for our seamen a standard based on the conditions given to the seamen of Great Britain. We should insist on a fanstandard for the other nations of the world to copy, in spite of the plea of uniformity raised by the honorable member for Wannon **(Mr. Rodgers).** If the honorable member meant by uniformity that we should lower out standard to conform with that of the British Mercantile Marine, I for one will not favour such a proposal. Although I am a country representative, I took the opportunity of rising to-night in order to put up a plea for the men among whom my lot was cast for a number of years, and because the organised farmers, of Victoria have adopted the principle that, while they are out to secure justice for the men on the land, they are prepared at all times to give justice to all other sections of the community. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee:* Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 (Commencement). {: #subdebate-27-0-s2 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- Can the Minister give the Committee any information as to what parts, if any, of the principal Act are now in operation? I understand that a certain portion of it was proclaimed, but that that proclamation was revoked. This clause provides that the Bill shall commence on a day to be fixed by proclamation. I am more concerned about how much of the principal Act is in operation than I am about this Bill. {: #subdebate-27-0-s3 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have not the details of the actual parts and sections of the principal Act that were proclaimed, but the position is that, after the proclamation was actually issued, we found it was practically impossible to give effect to the Act. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Did you revoke the whole lot? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is not revoked yet, but it will be. Then as soon as we are in a position to do so, it may be that the major portion of the Act will be put into operation. The Bill provides for that in the following clause. Clause agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to. Clause 5 - >Section 1 of the principal Act is amended by adding, at the end of sub-section (2), the following proviso : - > >Provided that notwithstandingthat a date has been so fixed for the commencement of any Part, Division, Section, or Schedule, such date of commencement may, at any time prior to that date, be postponed to such later date as is fixed by proclamation. > > *Section tobe amended -* > > *This Act . .. shall commence on a day to* be *fixed by proclamation ....* {: #subdebate-27-0-s4 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- This is one of the most vital portions of the Bill. A lot of the trouble that has arisen has been caused by the continual postponements. I realize that the original postponement owing to the then existing conditions was absolutely necessary, but we are getting out of those conditions to-day, and what I am pleading for is a definite statement as to the time when we are likely to make a start in rendering our navigation legislation effective. It is of no use to hold the Actbefore the seamen and others employed on ships as a placard, with the assurance that at some time or other we are going to confer these benefits on them. That is one of the things that the seamen complain of, and rightly so. Can the Minister tell the Committee what has been done with the British Merchant Shipping Act, and with regard to the Convention, and the amending Act which was passed and assented to on the 1st August, 1914, just prior to the war?Is that Act in operation so far as Great Britain is concerned ? If it is, there is no reason why the Australian Act should not be put into operation. Whilst in the case of most of our Acts we bring the whole measure into operation at once, this legislation is cut into sections, and it is provided that we can put different sections into operation at different times. If a. good deal of this legislation were put into operation it would save a great deal of difficulty and trouble such as we have experienced in the past. {: #subdebate-27-0-s5 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The British Act to which the honorable member has referred is not yet in operation. The British authorities have found themselves up against very much the same class of difficulty that we have experienced here. The abnormal conditions arising out of the war have not entirely passed away, and they have been unable to proclaim their Act, just as we have been unable to proclaim ours. We are pressing on as rapidly as possible with all the preparatory work, but a great deal has yet to be done to place us in a position to proclaim the whole Act. It is the intention of the Government at the first possible moment to bring the whole Act into operation. I can give the honorable member the further assurance that, as our preparations to take over from the States the whole administration of navigation are completed, and we find ourselves in a position to proclaim any portion of the Act which can with advantage be brought into operation, we shall immediately do so. As I pointed out in my second-reading speech, the position is still abnormal in many directions, and we could not with advantage to the country as a whole, notwithstanding our desire to put this Act into operation at the first possible moment, proclaim it just at present. I can, however, give the Committee the definite assurance that it is the desire and intention of the Government to proclaim the Act at the first possible opportunity. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- What are the difficulties in the way? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There are quite a number of matters which we are not ready to handle. A great deal of preparatory work has to be done, and officers have to be appointed. We are proceeding with ' the making of those appointments as rapidly as we can. We have also to make all the necessary preparations for taking over so many of the State servants as are required in the circumstances. The Director of Navigation is now busily engaged on those things, and I hope it will not be long before we are in a position to proclaim practically the whole Act. {: #subdebate-27-0-s6 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong .- I do not wish to attach special blame to the Ministry, but, speaking generally, in matters relating to the mercantile marine, there appears to be a desire to see what Great Britain is doing before taking action. The principle seems to be that what she does we may safely do. In 1912, this Parliament passed a Navigation Bill that was declared by the British Board of Trade to be a hundred years ahead of its time. Within less than two years, however, the British Government hadto admit that in that measure, the Australian Parliament had laid the foundation for the navigation laws of the civilized world. Under this clause the Minister takes power to withhold the issue of certain proclamations bringing the Act into operation. Are we to wait until the people of Great Britain take certain action, and then meekly follow their lead, or are we again to take the lead in navigation matters, and set an example to the rest of the world ? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I do not think this measure would be assented to if it were very far in advance of the Imperial law. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- It is a Bill that affects the Empire as a whole. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- We call ourselves a self-governing community, and while we must have some regard for the mercantile operations of the rest of the world, are we to hesitate to confer certain benefits on the seamen of Australia because of a fear that the Bill providing for those benefits may not be assented to some 12,000 miles away? The time has come when we should put up a fight. The King's representative in Australia cannot in the name of His Majesty assent to this Bill. It must go overseas to receive the Royal assent. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Clause 2 declares that to be so. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We are obliged to reserve this measure for the Royal assent. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I recognise that certain measures must be reserved for the Royal assent; but many people say there are numerous restrictions which oughtto be eased. If the Government put up a decent fight, there would be a relaxing of this tieing-up process, but if there is a lack of " fight " on this side, we shall continue to remain at the apron-strings. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- What is the honorable member talking about? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I object to this clause, which gives the Government power to withhold the issue of the proclamation bringing the measure into operation. In other words, it provides that they are to wait for a lead by others. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It has nothing to do with the question of the Royal assent. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- My electorate does not touch the sea at any point; but eight years have elapsed since the original Navigation Act was passed, and while I admit that war conditions have prevented the bringing of that Act into operation, I feel that we ought not always to live under the shadow of the Great War. Are we never to attempt to return to normal conditions? I protest against this handing over *of* power. Let us have this measure passed and brought into operation as soon as possible. {: #subdebate-27-0-s7 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley .- I do not think it fair to delay the bringing of this measure into operation. The reasons for delay advanced by the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** are not very sound. He says that the Government have not had time to make the necessary arrangements. The flaw in his argument is that the original Act was passed in 1912, so that both the Government and the shipping companies have had many years in which to make the necessary preparations. It seems to me that this is a piece of humbug on the part of the Government. They are promising some illusory thing to the seamen and those following mercantile pursuits. They have been dangling this measure before their eyes for years, and it is time for us to take a definite stand. Parliament ami the country should tell the Government in unmistakable terms that they are notto humbug the seamen any longer. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What a nasty thing to say ! {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Those who go down to the sea in ships are working under nasty conditions, an improvement in which has been promised them for years. The Government have said to them, " Be good boys ; do nothing wrong; and in the sweet byandbye all the good things for which the Navigation Act provides will be given you." {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is the honorable member referring to the five years during which the Labour party were in power ? They dangled this thing before the people during that time. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- We forced the original Navigation Bill through, in spite of the bitter opposition of the right honorable member and his party. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- Quite so. There was no more bitter opponent of the Navigation Bill than the right honorable member. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is not so. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- We are ali prepared to admit that it was impossible to bring the original Act into operation during the war. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That Act was passed with the unanimous consent of the Parliament. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- But it was allowed to remain in abeyance for years, because of the crisis through which the world was passing. But for the mercantile marine of Great Britain, the Allied countries would have been starved. They made it possible for the Allies to win the war. They were promised that if they carried out their duties these improved conditions would be given them at the end of the war. To: day, after five or six years of promising, they are told that they must wait for a further period. Either the conditions for which this Bill provides are right or they are wrong. The conditions demanded by the Navigation Act are right or wrong, and if they are right they should be complied with without delay. The shipping companies can have no ground for complaint in connexion with this matter, because they have had years of notice within which to prepare for the enforcement of the provisions of the Act. They have not done so because they have been top busy building up huge dividends during the war, and have neglected to so improve the accommodation for seamen on their ships as to comply with the requirements of the Naviga tion Act. I shall strenuously oppose giving the Government power to postpone the operation of one of the provisions, of the measure. **Mr. BURCHELL** (Fremantle) [9.32J. - The honorable member for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony)** has taken up the cudgels on behalf of the seamen, and if the facts were as he has represented them, there would be grave cause for complaint. But if we take into consideration the ships trading on the Australian coast to-day, it will be found that a very small percentage of them indeed do not, in respect of the accommodation provided for seamen, comply with the provisions laid down by the Navigation Act. The shipping companies have been preparing for the proclamation of the Act. I wish to remind the honorable member and the Committee generally that only a few months ago, when, unfortunately, we had a seamen's dispute affecting shipping on the coast of Australia, it was one of the terms agreed upon for the settlement of that dispute that every possible ship trading in Australian waters should, where necessary, be altered without delay to comply with the conditions imposed by the Navigation Act. It was one of the conditions of resumption of work by members of the Seamen's Union that the provisions applying to the accommodation provided for seamen should immediately be complied with whether the Navigation Act was proclaimed in force or not. I am surprised that the honorable member for Dalley, who represents a portion of Sydney Harbor, should not be aware of this fact. No proclamation of the Act will make the application of its provisions more binding than they have been made by the agreement by which the seamen's strike was settled and the. men agreed to return to work. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- If that be so, what is the objection to proclaiming the Act? {: #subdebate-27-0-s8 .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr BURCHELL: -- I am not responsible for the drafting of the measure now under consideration, but I can give a reason for the inclusion of clause 5. It was discovered iri Western Australia when certain sections of the original Act were proclaimed, that there was no power under the Act, once the proclamation was issued, to vary it in any shape or form. It was necessary to proclaim the whole of a division of the original Act, and there was no power to proclaim a particular section or part of a division. Clause 5 of this Bill gives the Minister power to proclaim particular sections of any division of the Act. The necessity for such a power became apparent immediately when certain portions of the original Act were proclaimed in March of this year. If honorable members will read clause 5 of this Bill they will see that it is designed to overcome that difficulty. Mr.Tudor . - This goes very much further. It provides for the postponement of theproclamation to a later date. {: .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr BURCHELL: -- My object in rising was to direct the attention of the honorable member for Dalley to the conditions in respect to the accommodation provided for seamen that exist in vessels trading in Australian waters to-day. Having achieved that object, I have no more to say. {: #subdebate-27-0-s9 .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN:
West Sydney Before the clause is passed I should like to ask the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** how long it takes to secure the Royal assent in the case of a Bill that is reserved for that purpose? {: #subdebate-27-0-s10 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The question is rather a difficult one to answer. The Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Tudor)** will probably confirm what I am about to say as to the time that elapsed before the Royal assent was given to the original Act. I think it was over twelve months. Mr.Fenton. - That would not apply to this measure. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In the case ofthe amending Navigation Bill which was passed in the last Parliament, and which was a short measure, we cabled the provisions of the Bill to the Old Country, and the Royal assent was cabled to Australia after a delay of about ten days. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- What was the purpose of that Bill? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I cannot remember the whole of the matters with which it dealt, but it was passed mainly in order to enable us to proclaim a portion of the Navigation Act at any given time, and to avoid the necessity of having to proclaim the whole of the Act at once. As the original measure was drawn it could be proclaimed in force as a whole, with the exception of the coastal trading provisions. There was a section under which it was necessary that the coastal trading provisions should be specially proclaimed, and we put through a short amending measure to enable us to proclaim the Act in forcepiecemeal, and also to enable us to extend the provisions of the Act to the territories which under mandate are to come under the control of the Australian Parliament. As the Bill now before the Committee contains no new principle, and is submitted only that Australia may carry out its pledge to adhere to the conclusions of the International Convention, I imagine that the Royal assent to it will be received very shortly after a copy of the measure is received by post in England. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- This is not one of the matters committed to the ex-Treasurer as part of his mission. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No, it is not. {: #subdebate-27-0-s11 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- On the question raised by the honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan),** I think, speaking from memory, it was over twelve months from the time the Navigation Bill was passed by this Parliament before we received notice that the Royal assent had been given to it. The reason for the delay is, I think, to be found in the fact that its provisions wereso radical when compared with other navigation laws in existence at the time. There cannot be the slightest doubt that the Board of Trade and the shipping people placed every obstacle possible in the way of its acceptance. I do not know what communications were received by the Department of Trade and Customs in connexion with the matter, but I have no doubt that the Board of Trade and the shipping people at Home desired that some of the stringent provisions of our Act should be watered down. As I have stated, it was the wreck of the *Titanic* soon after the passing of our Navigation Bill in 1912 that made it plain to the Governments of other countries that it was necessary to bring their navigation laws into line with that which we had passed. If the honorable member for West Sydney will compare our Navigation Act with the report of the Convention, which I handed to him this afternoon, he will see that the articles of the Convention are in line with the measure we passed in 1912. A statement was made by the honorable member for Wimmera **(Mr. Stewart)** this afternoon concerning the Navigation Commission that considered the measure. I think the Commission sat from 1905 to 1907, and there was subsequently a Navigation Conference held in Great Britain, which was attended, on behalf of Australia, by the present Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes),** the late **Sir William** Lyne, and **Sir Harry** Wollaston. The Navigation Bill was .before every Federal Parliament from 1904 to 1912 on more occasions and in more various forms than even the Bill for the creation of an Institute of Science and Industry. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Navigation Bill was reserved for the Royal assent on the 24th December, 1912, and was proclaimed in Australia in October, 1913. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- As the amendments contained in this measure are very slight, nothing like the same length of time should elapse before assent is given to it. But I am anxious that the provisions of the original Act should be put in operation. Of course, we have to take over certain marine services from the States; that work must be done. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- A vast deal of work has been done already. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I know that. I believe that the Navigation Act is twice as long as is any other measure that has been passed by this Parliament, and the regulations made under the Imperial Merchant Service Act are almost as numerous as those made under our own War Precautions Act. We ought not to wait for the Royal assent to this amending measure before giving effect to the provisions of the original Act. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Can the Act be put in operation in sections? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- Under the amending Act previously passed by this Parliament, that can be done. This Bill does not make many material alterations in the existing law, which should be put in operation without delay. {: #subdebate-27-0-s12 .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN:
West Sydney .- I asked the question as to how long it would take to get the Royal assent to this measure, not because I was unaware of the time usually occupied in the case, of measures that are reserved, but rather in order to obtain an assurance from the Minister that he would endeavour to expedite the matter. There, is no doubt that a great deal of dissatisfaction arose from the fact that the Navigation Act was not earlier proclaimed, although when the necessity arose for making an amendment, assent to the amending measure was obtained by cable. The honorable member for Fremantle **(Mr. Burchell)** ,has practically admitted that the seamen themselves forced action upon the Government. No wonder there are men who complain that parliamentary action is no good when they found that, as a result of their own direct action on that occasion, the Government were forced to take certain steps. It is unfortunate that the Government were not sufficiently alive to the situation to take action before they were forced to do so by the men. I quite agree with the remarks that fell from the honorable member for Maribrynong **(Mr. Fenton)** with regard to the reservation of Bills. I contend that the Royal assent should be given upon the advice 6f Australian Ministers only. That is part of the programme of the Labour party, and I think the time is opportune to have that view placed before 'the Imperial authorities. An opportunity to do so was furnished in connexion with the mission of the exTreasurer **(Mr. Watt).** I should like to know whether any portion of the exTreasurer's mission- was connected with navigation matters. Certain correspondence between the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** and the ex-Treasurer after he left Australia has been placed before the House, but I hope the Minister in charge of the Bill **(Mr. Greene)** will give the Committee some indication of the scope of the ex-Treasurer's mission. Perhaps he will be good enough to explain also whether the purposes of the exTreasurer's mission were set out in writing, so that we may know what the mission was and what communications from the other side of the world led to the honorable member for Balaclava being sent to London. I do not think that the cables which have been made public by the Prime Minister can be properly interpreted until we know the scope of the exTreasurer's mission and authority, and' the circumstances in which the mission was decided upon. Question - That the clause be agreed to - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 32 NOES: 17 Majority... ... ... 15 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Clause agreed to. Clauses 6 to 11 agreed to. Clause 12- >After section twenty-eight of the Principal Act the following section is inserted : - "28a. For the purposes of this Division, ' seaman ' and' apprentice ' include any person who is seeking employment as a seaman or apprentice (as the case may be) or who is engaged or supplied, or who is offered for engagement or supply, as a seamen or apprentice on board a ship." {: #subdebate-27-0-s13 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931 -- This is a very indefinite definition. It sets out to define really what a seaman is, and a true description will have a great effect in putting down crimping, which has been, and still is, rampant around the Australian coast. Seamen have expressed the fear that, under the section in the principal Act, an indefinite position would arise regarding the designation of a seaman, and how he should be shipped on to a vessel. The position was such that it admitted of other than practical persons being shipped, by any party, in any way, without proper check being placed upon their actions. But, in regard to the present proposal of the Government, I desire a clear understanding whether the other extreme has not been gone to in permitting the manning of ships by persons who have had no sea-going experience at all. Unless the position is made quite clear, considerable danger and trouble may arise in the manning of vessels. We should seek to ensure safety at this stage. {: #subdebate-27-0-s14 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- This is a matter to which the honorable member for Melbourne Ports **(Mr. Mathews)** referred, and in regard to which a deputation from the executive of the Seamen's Union waited on me some days ago. A fear was expressed that this definition, applying as it does, to this part of the measure, and to this part only, would weaken the general definition of seamen. It will not have that effect at all. In regard to the complaint made by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports that the seamen had not been consulted with reference to these amendments, I might say that they were inserted as a result of representations made by the executive of the Seamen's Union in order to checkmate certain boardinghouse-keepers or crimps operating in Newcastle. The term " seaman " or " apprentice " in the principal Act has a very definite meaning. A "seaman" means a person employed or engaged in any capacity on board ship, and an " apprentice" a person bound by indenture to the sea service. Some difficulty has arisen in consequence of this definition, and in a Court case at Newcastle, where a man was charged with illegally supplying seamen, the defence raised was that the person supplied was not a seaman within the meaning of the Act because he was not at the time employed or engaged on a ship. The Court upheld the point raised, so that although the man charged wasguilty of the offence, he got off. The executive of the Seamen's Union then made representations to the Government in connexion with the matter, and this amendment has been inserted to meet that case. Outside of sections 28 to 33 the definition will have no effect whatever. It will not affect the definition of " seaman " or the obligation thrown upon the employers of seamen in relation to any other portion of the Act. The only purpose is to safeguard the interests of seamen. {: #subdebate-27-0-s15 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- After the Minister's explanation, I think the seamen's representations were correct. Apparently the only reason for the definition is to prevent men from being crimped. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is all. Clause agreed to. Clause 13 - >Section thirty-nine of the Principal Act is amended - > >by omitting sub-section (3) and inserting in its stead the following subsections : - " (3) No seaman shall be rated as ' greaser ' who has not served six months as fireman at sea. *"* (4) No seaman shall be rated as 'fireman' who has not served six months as a trimmer or fireman at sea. " (5) No seaman shall be rated as ' shipwright ' or ' ship's carpenter ' who has not served an apprenticeship asshipwright, or three years at sea as ship's carpenter, as the case may be. " (6) After the expiration of twelve months from the commencement of this Division, a seaman shall not be permitted to engage in any capacity unless he satisfies the Superintendent that he can pull an oar and handle a boat : > >Provided that this sub-section shall not apply to the engagement of a. seaman who has not previously served at sea. " (7) Notwithstanding anything contained in this section, persons rated as greasers, firemen, shipwrights or ship's carpenters, before the commencement of this Division, shall continue to be entitled to be so rated." > > *Section proposed to be* amended - > > *A Superintendent before whom a seaman is engaged shall refuse to enter a seaman as A.B.,O.S., greaser, or fireman, in theagreement unless the seaman gives to him satisfactory proof of his title to be so rated.* {: #subdebate-27-0-s16 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- Subclauses 3, 4, and 5 are quite right, and sub-clause 6 is a wise provision, as it states that a seaman must satisfy the Superintendent that he can pull an oar and handle a boat. But their value is destroyed by sub-clause 7, which states that any persons rated as greasers, firemen, shipwrights, or ship's carpenters, before the commencement of this division, shall continue to be entitled to be so rated. I remember on one occasion at Cairns the captain of the *Wodonga* sent two men ashore in a boat to tie the ship up. The men promptly jumped ashore with the rope, and allowed the boat to float down the river. Naturally the captain used " language," and remarked that on the next occasion he would send a stewardess ashore, as she would do better. That was his opinion of the ability of those men. The provisions in sub-clauses 3, 4, and 5 are perfectly satisfactory; but I would go further, and say that no man should be engaged as a seaman unless he was able to swim. Under the clause as it stands, if a man is engaged on a vessel as ship's carpenter, he will be entitled to rate as such when the Act. comes into operation; though, as a matter of fact, he might not be qualified for that position at all, and as much may depend upon his ability as upon any one else on board. {: .speaker-KV8} ##### Mr Stewart: -- Do you not think that clause 14 meets that position to a great extent ? It provides that asuperintendent may refuse to enter a man as A.B., O.S., greaser, fireman, shipwright, or ship's carpenter, unless he gives satisfactory proof of his title to be so rated ? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- No, because a man need only show his discharge as a shipwright in order to be rated as such. I suggest that the Minister provide, either in this or a subsequent clause, that the superintendent, before whom a seaman is engaged, shall refuse to enter him unless he gives satisfactory proof of his title to be rated. In Great Britain shipwrights hold certificates from the Board of Trade, but the Board of Trade in Australia does not undertake that duty. I suggest that shipwrights and carpenters be excluded from the operation of this clause, so as to compel the superintendent to see thatonly competent men are engaged, and that trained men may receive a certificate of competency. {: #subdebate-27-0-s17 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I can not see my way clear to accept the sug gested amendment. What is done by the Bill is to bring under one clause all the scattered provisions relatingto the rating of seamen. Under the original Act fire men and greasers and able seamen who are rated at the time of the passing of the Act are entitled to be so rated, and we propose to treat shipwrights and carpenters in exactly the same way.I think that clause 14 fully safeguards the position, butI shall look into the matter between now and to-morrow. Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 2598 {:#debate-28} ### MILITARY STORES, WESTERN AUSTRALIA {: #debate-28-s0 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT -- I move - >That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1914, the following work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing 'Committee on Public Works for their report thereon, viz. : - Mobilization and vehicle stores at Midland Junction, Western Australia, with necessary railway connexion, water supply, &c. > >That the Committee be empowered to sit whilst the House is sitting. Already at Liverpool, in New South Wales, mobilization and vehicle stores have been constructed, and a report by the Public Works Committee relating to similar stores at Seymour, in Victoria, is now before the House. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- What is the special urgency for this motion to-night ? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- This work, which comprises the establishment of a mobilization stores depot, is both necessary and urgent. As explained previously to the House in connexion with the proposed establishment of a similar depot at Seymour, Victoria, the Commonwealth Government has arranged with the Imperial authorities for equipment and vehicles for five dismounted and two mounted divisions of the Australian Imperial Force to be sent to Australia. The equipment and vehicles have to be stored and issued as required. This material is now arriving, and the Western Australian portion of it will, it is proposed, be principally located in these stores at Midland Junction. It is, therefore, an extremely urgent necessity that the buildings be completed at the earliest possible date, as temporary storage accommodation for only a limited portion of the equipment is available. The decision to erect these stores at Midland J unction has been arrived at after very careful consideration by the expert officers of the Defence Department, after reviewing and inspecting other possible sites. It is intended that the depot shall be connected by a special siding from the Western Australian railways. The buildings proposed to be erected consist of - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. 1 ordnance store, 306 feet by 100 feet. 1. 1 equipment store, 153 feet by 100 feet. 2. 1 small arms ammunition store, 60 feet by 80 feet. 3. 1 vehicle store, 300 feet by 100 feet. (e). Office, 40 feet by 20 feet. 4. Caretaker's cottage, 35 feet by 46 feet. The estimated cost of these, together with the accessory engineering per vices, is £34,267. The construction proposed for the store sheds is of the simplest description, consisting of hardwood wall and roof framing covered with galvanized corrugated iron, the types being similar to those which have been generally adopted for like structures erected and being erected at Liverpool, New South Wales; Seymour, Victoria; and elsewhere. The construction of the proposed cottage is intended to be brick. The following detailed information is to be laid before the Committ ee: - {: type="A" start="A"} 0. Details of estimate of cost. 1. Plan of site, showing proposed lay-out of depot and railway connexion. 2. Type plan ofOrdnance or Equipment Store. 3. Type plan of Vehicle Store. 4. Type plan of Small Arms Ammunition Store. Further plans and particulars will be made available to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, and any additional information required will be submitted later in' the form of evidence. The site consists of about twelve acres of land situated near Midland Junction, which is being acquired at a cost of £900 from the Millar Timber and Trading Company. This work represents a part of the scheme for the erection of similar stores in various parts of Australia. {: #debate-28-s1 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra .- I think this is the first occasion on which on a motion of this kind it has been proposed that the Committee be empowered to sit whilst the House in sitting. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- The Public Works Committee at present may, with the permission of the House, sit whilst the House is sitting. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- It is not an unusual provision . {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I cannot call to mind a previous instance, and, in my opinion, such aprovision will in all probability prevent certain members from attending to their duties here. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -Section 10 of the Public Works Committee Act provides that the Committee shall not meet while either House of Parliament is actually sitting, except by leave of the House. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- In my opinion, it is a bad principle for honorable members to be occupied elsewhere while the House is sit ting Does this mean that the members of the Public Works Committee are going to Western Australia! {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- That is not the object of the provision, but it is open to the Committee to go to Western Australia if necessary. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- That condition has been embodied in this motion for the purpose of allowing the six members of this House who are members of the Public Works Committee to absent themselves from Melbourne while Parliament is sitting. I do not think that that is a wise principle to adopt. When the Committee of Public Works Act was passed it was expressly provided that the Committee should not sit whilst Parliament was sitting. If the work is urgent, cannot the information required be obtained in Melbourne? Question resolved in the affirmative. {: .page-start } page 2599 {:#debate-29} ### ADJOURNMENT Position at Cockatoo Island - **Mr. Watt's** Resignation. Motion (by **Sir Joseph** Cook) proposed - >That the House do now adjourn. {: #debate-29-s0 .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY:
Dalley . -I desire to direct the attention of the Minister for the Navy(Sir Joseph Cook) to the position which obtains at Cockatoo Island. The honorable gentleman will remember that a few weeks ago I pointed out that there was a considerable quantity of material lying on the island - material required for the construction of a coal ship - and that the work of building that vessel was not being proceeded with. As a result, numbers of men have been thrown out of employment. I am credibly informed that considerably more than 800 tons of material for the construction of this vessel are now lying at Cockatoo. This material in itself is sufficient to enable work on the ship to be carried on for the next two or three months. Yet men are being discharged daily. Unless the work is proceeded with immediately some 500 or 600 hands will find themselves in idleness. I would strongly impress upon the Minister the desirableness of doing something in this matter. I hope that he will not allow himself to be bluffed by any statement to the effect that certain material is not to hand. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member desires that I should accept his word on the matter? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I ask the honorable gentleman to make inquiries for himself. I have here a copy of adocument which shows that all the necessary material for the superstructure of the vessel is already on the island. The only parts which are missing are parts which will not be required until the ship is practically completed. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What does the honorable member think is the reason for the delay? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- I do not know. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I do not. I only know what the manager says, viz., that he has not the requisite material. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- If the manager says that he has not the material necessary to enable the ship to be carried almost to completion, he is merely bluffing the Minister. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Why should he desire to bluff me? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr MAHONY: -- That is for him to say. The construction of the vessel has been approved, the material is lying on Cockatoo Island, and the work should be proceeded with. {: #debate-29-s1 .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN:
West Sydney .- I ask the Minister in charge of the House whether an opportunity will begiven honorable members at a very early date to discuss the important statement which was made by the Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes)** on Friday last. Upon that occasion the right honorable gentleman gave certain information to the public which was contained in cable messages that had passed between himself and the late Treasurer **(Mr. Watt).** I gather from the press that in the course of that statement the Prime Minister affirmed that **Mr. Watt** had resigned three' times prior to his departure for London. No doubt that statement was made with a view to discrediting the late Treasurer. {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- Why should it be? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- I conclude that it was made with that object, particularly when I view it in conjunction with the Prime Minister's statement that the late Treasurer had deserted the duty that he was to perform for Australia on the other side of the world. I think that, in the public interests - not to speak of the interests of **Mr. Watt** himself, who is now about 12,000 miles distant - an early opportunity should be given honorable members to discuss this matter. For my own part, I do not think that anybody can come to a correct conclusion in regard to the contents of those cables unless he is placed in possession of the cable communications from London to the Commonwealth Government, which led up to the sending of **Mr. Watt** to England. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- The honorable member is not likely to see them. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- It is necessary that we should see them in order that we may learn what was the requirement of the British authorities which led to the sending of the late Treasurer to London, and in order that we may be able to conclude what his authority ought to. have been. In addition, I think we should know the actual instructions which were given to him when leaving here. What was the scope of his mission ? I suppose that it is contained in some written -document, a copy of which should be available to honorable members. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Why, it is all recorded in *Hansard.* {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- No, it is not. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, it is. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- Excuse me, it is not in *Hansard.* Does the Minister for the Navy say that the communication from the Imperial Government to the Commonwealth Government which led up to the decision to send **Mr. /Watt** to London is recorded in *Hansard?* {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I do not know of any communication from the Imperial Government which led to **Mr. Watt's** departure for London. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- Was there not such a communication ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Not that I know of. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr RYAN: -- It is very extraordinary if the Government sent **Mr. Watt** to London without having some previous communication from the Imperial authorities. As far as I can gather from one reference in **Mr. Watt's** cablegrams, there must have been some such communication from the Imperial Government. Then it is a matter of great interest to me to know what were the circumstances connected with **Mr. Watt's** three resignations. In fairness to the late Treasurer, should not the grounds for his resignations have been stated? If those resignations were in writing - and we have been told that they were - the documents should be produced. No doubt, in addition to containing an intimation of his resignation, **Mr. Watt** also notified what were the grounds for his action. I am sure the country would be interested to know what were the representations made to the late Treasurer that prevented him from insisting on his resignation being accepted. These are all matters of great concern to the people of Australia, particularly in view of the fact that we were told important business which had to be transacted on the other side of the world suffered in consequence of the Minister's delinquency. Therefore, at the earliest possible moment, honorable members ought to be given the opportunity of discussing the' statements made by the Prime Minister, and endeavouring to extract the information I have referred to, and other information of a similar nature. I hope that the Minister for the Navy **(Sir Joseph Cook)** will be able to give us an intimation as to what are the intentions of the Government in regard to the question I am submitting. {: #debate-29-s2 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The further .intentions of the Government in regard to the matter are nil. The honorable member for West Sydney **(Mr. Ryan)** might very well leave our little family quarrels alone. If he is very anxious to get into a fight, I have no doubt he could find plenty on his own side to concern him. He demonstrates plainly to-night that he is a true Irishman. He thinks there is a fight on, and he wants to be in it. I think he had better keep out of it. I do not know that it concerns him very vitally. {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- I am only concerned in a family quarrel in so far as it affects the people of Australia, whose interests are neglected while the family is quarrelling. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- But in the honorable member's opinion Australia's case is already hopeless. He went to Ballarat last night to tell the people there what an incompetent crew the Government had been for some time past. He has made up his mind. What concern, therefore, can he have in wanting to defend the honorable member for Balaclava **(Mr. Watt)** as against the Government? {: .speaker-L0H} ##### Mr Ryan: -- I am not defending the honorable member for Balaclava. But I want all the information relative to the issue in order that the public may arrive at a proper decision. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What information does the honorable member want? His leader has seen all the cables, in fact has edited them and left some out. He has seen all the cables that I have seen. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- The Acting Treasurer may not have seen them all. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I hope I have, and I believe I have. I suggest to the honorable member for. West Sydney that he had better leave this family quarrel alone. Later on there may be something in it for him, but there is very little in it for him just now. I have already told the honorable mem. ber for Dalley **(Mr. Mahony)** why work is slack at Cockatoo Island. The boat being built there cannot be proceeded with because it is. alleged that material required for its completion in not to hand. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- I maintain that there is no material missing that is necessary for proceeding with the boat. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I amvery sorry that I cannot set aside the opinion of the manager and accept that of my honorable friend. When I asked the honorable member just now what motive the manager could have for discharging these men, he was unable to furnish me with one. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- How do I know what is in his mind ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It is fair to assume that the manager has no motive but to do the best he can for his works and for the men employed there, and that he would go on with the building of the ship if he had the material available. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- I maintain that inquiry will prove that the material is available. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What Inquiry? **Mr. Mahony.** - Let the Minister visit the Island and get hold of the foremen in charge. They will show it to him. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Have they shown it to the honorable member? {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- It does not matter who told me. I have many ways of getting information. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Apparently! {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- Go over and look for yourself. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I cannot do that, but I shall forward a *Hansard* copy of the honorable member's remarks to the manager for his reply. I am only too pleased to keep the men at work if there is work for them to do, but I cannot pretend to keep 500 or600 men at work If there is nothing for them to do. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 10.36 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 7 July 1920, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1920/19200707_reps_8_92/>.