House of Representatives
7 December 1916

6^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- KNITTING MILLS
QUESTION
- KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY
PAPERS
QUESTION
- NORTHERN TERRITORY
QUESTION
- ENGLISH LABOUR LEADER
QUESTION
- PARLOUR MAIDS, STATE GOVERNMENT HOUSE
QUESTION
- SALE OF AUSTRALIAN WHEAT
QUESTION
- TRAINEES FOR HOME DEFENCE
QUESTION
- PRICE FIXING
QUESTION
- FINANCIAL STATEMENT
QUESTION
- COUNTRY POSTAL FACILITIES
QUESTION
- TWOPENNY POSTAGE
QUESTION
- DESTRUCTION OF SOLDIERS’ MAILS
QUESTION
- FEMALE DISPENSERS
QUESTION
- PRICE OF COLONIAL WINES
QUESTION
- SOLDIERS’ WIVES : ALLOWANCES
QUESTION
- GALLIPOLI HEROES: PUNISHMENTS
QUESTION
- OFFICERS’ SCHOOLS OF INSTRUCTION
QUESTION
- AMMUNITION AND RIFLES: OUTPUT
QUESTION
- FINNISH ASSOCIATION
QUESTION
- EMPLOYMENT OF PENSIONERS
QUESTION
- PUBLIC WORKS EXPENDITURE
QUESTION
- TRIALS OF INDUSTRIAL WORKERS OF THE WORLD
SUPPLY
- Interim Financial Statement - Ministerial Policy
- In Committee of Supply:
- C/o Commonwealth Bank,
- Dear Sir,
- Department of Defence,
- Melbourne, 13th November, 1916
- Dear Sir,
- Federal Parliament House, Melbourne

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 9537

QUESTION

KNITTING MILLS

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Yesterday the Minister for the Navy stated that certain factories, among which were woollen mills, were to be permitted to recommence work on Monday next, and others, I think,this day week. Are knitting mills included in the permission? Can knitting mills, which depend on electric power, as well as those which generate their own power, start on the dates named?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

– Yes.

page 9537

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Works if he will lay on the table all papers concerning the superseding of private boardinghouses by Government boardinghouses on the East- West railway, and all matters pertaining thereto.

Mr SPENCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The honorable member having been good enough to givethe Minister notice of his question, I have been authorized to lay the papers on the table of the Library.

page 9537

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Interim Financial Statement delivered by the Honorable AlexanderPoynton, Treasurer of the Commonwealth, on the 6th December, 1916.

Death and Invalidity in the Commonwealth - Committee concerning Causes of - Report on Tuberculosis.

Ordered to be printed.

The War - Submarines- Memorandum respecting the Treatment of Belligerent Submarines in Neutral Waters communicated by the Allied Governments to the Governments of certain Neutral Maritime States. - (Paper presented to the British Parliament.)

War Precautions Act- Regulations - Statutory Rules 1916, No. 299.

page 9537

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Expenditure - Administration

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Has any report reached the Defence Department that hundreds of letters from Australia to Australian reinforcements were, by order of an English officer in Egypt, burnt or destroyed at Tel-el-Kebir, Egypt, last January?
If so, will he allow the same to bc inspected by honorable members?
If not received, will he obtain a report about the matter?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister for Defence has supplied the following replies : -

An allegation that numbers of letters addressed to Australian reinforcements in Egypt had been burnt, was brought under the notice of the Department. The Australian military authorities in Egypt were communicated with by cable on the subject, and a reply was received that an investigation had already been made concerning a similar allegation, but nothing more than rumours were established.
The file will be made available for perusal at the Victoria Barracks by any honorable member who so desires.

page 9539

QUESTION

FEMALE DISPENSERS

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Have any qualified female dispensers been appointed in connexion with the A.I.F.?
Is there any reason why the services of female dispensers could not be utilized?
Have any female dispensers applied for appointment?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister for Defence has supplied the following replies : -

No.
As there are plenty of qualified men available and anxious to serve, it is not considered necessary to utilize the services of female dispensers.
Yes.

page 9540

QUESTION

PRICE OF COLONIAL WINES

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Has there been a great increase in the price of colonial wines, with enormously increased profits made by the vignerons, since the introduction of the Tariff, and. if so, will the Government bring in a high Excise duty upon Australian wines ?
Has there been a greatly increasedprice, with largely increased profits made by the distillers, on all Australian spirits since the Tariff, and, if so. will the Government increase the Excise duty on such spirits?

Mr ARCHIBALD:
Minister for Trade and Customs · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : - 1.Forsome years past, owing to improved methods of manufacture and of distribution and the production of a superior article, also by efforts towards the elimination of middlemen, the vignerons have been able to secure better prices for their wines. The failure of the vintage last season led to high prices, but they have been steadied by the prospect of a splendid vintage this season.

The Government will consider the question of the Excise duty upon Australian wines.

A considerable increase has taken place in the price of spirits, owing to the great shortage of supplies from abroad, high freights and other influences tending to restrict importation. This has probably led to increased profits being realized by distillers.

The question of the rate of duty on Excise spirits will be considered.

page 9540

QUESTION

SOLDIERS’ WIVES : ALLOWANCES

Mr WATKINS:
for Mr. West

asked the Minister for theNavy, upon notice -

Is the Minister aware that the allowances to soldiers’ wives have been increased?
If so, will he grant the same allowances to sailors’ wives?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– As this is a question of policy, I ask the honorable member to postpone it until Wednesday next.

page 9540

QUESTION

GALLIPOLI HEROES: PUNISHMENTS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice-

Will he give a list of the Gallipoli heroes who have been sentenced to imprisonment or degraded. Also a list of their names, the length of their sentences, and the alleged crimes or misdemeanours they have been punished for?
Will he permit an honour list of such names to be published if in a public meeting of citizens they consider the punishment cruel and unjust ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I have asked my honorable colleague, the Minister for Defence, to look into this matter.

page 9540

QUESTION

OFFICERS’ SCHOOLS OF INSTRUCTION

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:

asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether it is true, as reported, that Officers’ Schools of Instruction are being closed, and that candidates who have qualified for commissions have been required to join the infantry forces as privates? If so, what is the reason ?
How many candidates have qualified for commissions in the various schools of instruction for whom no commissions are available at the present time?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister for Defence has supplied the following replies : -

A school is at present in progress. On its termination the acceptance of further candidates will be suspended until there are sufficient recruits in sight to justify its continuance. All candidates who have qualified are not going as privates. As far as they can be absorbed they go as non-commissioned officers for the voyage, reverting to privates on arrival and allotment to their regiments abroad. Each one carries with him his “ passed “ certificate, pasted in his pay-book, so that the officers abroad may considerhis qualifications for promotion to fill vacancies there.
One hundred and sixty-three.

page 9540

QUESTION

AMMUNITION AND RIFLES: OUTPUT

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will he inform the House if his Government have taken steps to greatly increase the output of ammunition and rifles?
Has the Government made any commencement in connexion with the manufacture of large ordnance; if not, why not?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The answers tothe honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes.
All possible steps in this connexion have been taken.

page 9540

QUESTION

FINNISH ASSOCIATION

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

asked the Assistant Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether he is aware that a military officer visited the rooms of the Finnish Association in

Brisbane recently, and informed the secretary that the association was to abstain from taking any part in politics, and must, both as an organization and individually, confine activities to the social side of life, and that the association was to be prohibited from donating any funds to any organization or object?

Whether the military officer referred to was acting under instructions issued by the Minister ?
Whether there was any particular purpose in, or reason for, special action in regard to the Finnish Association?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister for Defence has supplied the following replies : -

No. The Minister for Defence will have inquiries made into the allegation.
No.
See answer to No. 1.

page 9541

QUESTION

EMPLOYMENT OF PENSIONERS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

In view of the present unemployment, is it the intention of the Government to employ men who are in receipt of a pension?
Will the Prime Minister lay on the table of the House a return of all Federal permanent officers in Victoria who also receive payments from other employers, showing the names, and positions of, and salaries paid to such officers, and also the names and salaries paid by the other employers?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Only under special circumstances.
Yes.

page 9541

QUESTION

PUBLIC WORKS EXPENDITURE

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Will he submit approximately in detail the items constituting economies in public works expenditure referred to in the financial statement?

Mr POYNTON:
ALP

– I may be able to later in the day give the information required. In the meantime, I ask the honorable member to postpone the question until to-morrow.

page 9541

QUESTION

TRIALS OF INDUSTRIAL WORKERS OF THE WORLD

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

In view of the revelations disclosed at the trial of members of the Industrial Workers of the World at Sydney recently, and the comments of Mr. Justice Pring when delivering judgment, will the Government take action by regulation under the War Precautions Act to make this association an illegal organization in Australia ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The matter will be considered.

page 9541

SUPPLY

Interim Financial Statement - Ministerial Policy

In Committee of Supply:

Debate resumed from 6th December (vide page 9484), on motion by Mr. Poynton -

That there he granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending the 30th day of June, One thousand nine hundred and seventeen, a sum not exceeding £3,293,290.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am going to give details which the honorable member carefully and studiously omitted to give the House when quoting from a speech made by one of the biggest men in the Empire. He quoted, for instance, from a statement of the Chief of General Stall at Home. Here is the statement that he read -

From whatever point of view you look at the situation to-day, you can do so without anxiety.

Mr Hampson:

– I did not quote that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– If the honorable member did not, thenone of his party did. My honorable friend quoted at length from the Chief of the General Staff.

Mr Hampson:

– Here is the quotation I made.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member for Bendigo said -

I shall refuse to take part in the campaign with men who have stood on the platform and offered all the insults possible to others who were endeavouring to do their best.

Not only have we got men - I do not say enough - but, thanks to the men and women of this country, we have got artillery and ammunition. The army thanks the men and women of this country for what they have done in this respect. We have got guns and ammunition, plenty of the big ammunition that is known at the front as “Lloyd George’s specials.” . . .

We must be prepared to go on for a period of time which it is impossible to estimate. “ Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best “ - that is a good motto. We have yet a long way to go, and we must be ready to go all the way. “ Fight to a finish “ is the order. Therefore, there must be no slackening off. On the contrary, there must be tightening up.

Mr Hannan:

– Has there been any slackening off in Australia ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does the honorable member not know that the camps are practically empty to-day - that we cannot send any more reinforcements until we have recruited the men ? The Chief of the General Staff goes on to say -

More men are wanted, and in due course we shall want all men who can be spared. How are they to be obtained is a question which Sir Wm. Robertson leaves to the consideration of the Government.

It would be improper for me to discuss it, but I am entitled to say that we are not justified in expecting to win this war unless the services of every man and woman in this country are utilized to the fullest possible extent. A full day’s work is demanded from every man and woman, old and young - on the farm, in the factory, wherever you like - in order to liberate as many men as possible to go out and support those gallant fellows at the front.

There is the statement of a man who knows what this war is like - who knows; the necessities of the situation far better than does the honorable member, whose opinion is as a puff of wind alongside this expert scientific opinion. Here we have an authority against which the honorable member puts his own uninformed - I shall useno stronger term - opinion.

Mr Hannan:

– Put your own opinion.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– My own opinion ! I shall follow the opinion of the Chief of Staff; and I say to the honorable member that every man we can spare from Australia ought to be got ready to go. We ought to begin to organize the nation, as the Chief of Staff suggests - a thing we have not yet begun to do here.

When my honorable friend says that we have done enough, and cannot afford to send any more men, I say that he has an imperfect apprehension of the gravity of the situation overseas. He has an entirely erroneous view concerning the duration of the war, and the demands it is likely to make on the manhood of our Allies and of the Empire before we see it through to a successful conclusion. Let me read the remarks of the honorable member for Bendigo last week -

No one was more enthusiastic on this score than the French generals; and Sir William Robertson, himself, said that we had enough men to win the war, and that what was required was enough men to win peace.

I regret extremely to hear the statements of my honorable friend. They indicate at once a change which must be made in the recruiting organization sketched by the Prime Minister.

Mr Hannan:

– Political organization.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am talking of the organization for recruiting, and I take it that the honorable member for Fawkner will not set himself at the head of any recruiting organization in his electorate after his statement here to-day. He ought not to do any more recruiting, because he does not believe in it - because he says we have done enough, and have recruited all the men we can spare. I am very sorry to hear these expressions fall so glibly from my honorable friend. This war will not be won until we get a very much greater appreciation of the real difficulties in front of us than that which pervades the speech and mind of the honorable member.

This bears some relation to, and throws a lurid light oh, a resolution which was passed yesterday by my honorable friends’ masters outside - the Inter-State Labour Conference. I do not know, but I suppose that the following resolution was carried unanimously : -

That this conference is of opinion that in the interests of humanity-

– I want to kill the men ‘who are trying to kill us. This is war, and nothing else will suffice in a great international struggle such as is now plaguing the world.

– Why should he be held responsible for what somebody else says ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Far be it from me to hold anybody responsible for these utterances but the man who made them. The report continues -

Referring to the “ I.W.W.” cases, the speaker said that the men had not been fairly tried. (Applause.) Any one knowing the facts that preceded the trial could not fail to feel the deepest indignation at the “ judicial murder.’’ (Applause.) “Judicial murder,” Mr. Hyett calls the trial of those men. The same meeting passed this resolution, with only three dissentients -

That this meeting, speaking in the interests of Democracy, demands the immediate withdrawal of the clauses in the War Precautions Act which prevent a free press and free speech, and further demands the immediate release of the prominent anti-conscriptionists who were gaoled by a class-biased Judge, and whose cases were further prejudiced by W. M. Hughes long before the date of the trial. “A class-biased Judge”, committed “ judicial murder “ in sentencing those

Industrial Workers of the World, according to the statement of one of the union officials in Melbourne, I suppose, the trusted official of perhaps the largest union in Victoria. Then may I direct the attention of honorable members to this report -

The following motion was unanimously agreed to at a meeting of theRedfern Branch of the Amalgamated Society of Carpenters and Joiners: - “That we emphatically protest against the brutal sentences passed upon members of the Industrial Workers of the World, as we consider that no evidence was submitted which incriminated them in any way with the charges preferred against them, and we consider that the Judge, jury, witnesses, and police were biased on account of the statements of politicians, the press, and the pulpit whilst the case was still sub-judice, and we further demand the release of these men.

The East Woollahra Labour League went even further, for it protested against the proposed hanging of the Tottenham murderers, and against the sentences imposed on the twelve Industrial Workers of the World men, and urged the Political Labour League Executive and all unions to take immediate action to express their opposition to such severity.

Mr Hannan:

– Have you any objection to these men expressing their opinions in this way? If they had not done so, it would have been impossible for you to make a speech to-day.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does the honorable member mean that, in order to preserve liberty of speech, a man is to be allowed to say anything he likes, and no exception may be taken to it? That is a strange doctrine. I know of a whole pile of Statutes which say that a man may not express any opinion he chooses to hold, and under which he is sent to gaol if he does so. He is only permitted to act and speak within the laws of the country. However, my object is to point out that I have heard no protest from the honorable member against the sort of thing disclosed by the extracts I have read. The honorable member has not declared that he will fight this kind of thing to the death.

– It seems to me quite inconsistent that, in connexion with the safety of- the nation, a set of men who express their opinions and take a certain course should receive from honorable members, who formerly supported them, the severest condemnation possible, and threats of political death, in all the embittered terms in which they are able to express them, while the same honorable members utter no word of any sort concerning these expressions of opinion by outside bodies in regard to the dispensation of justice in the recent trials.

I have here some even stronger statements which were published in the Labour Call, which is an organ of very great influence amongst the industrial classes in this city. In one of the articles published in that journal we are told that the only crime which those men who were sentenced in Sydney committed was that they expressed unpopular working class opinions. Are these” working class opinions” that the Industrial Workers of the World men have been expressing? Do honorable’ members agree to that statement of the case?

Mr Higgs:

– Give notice of all these questions; they are absurd.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do, and it is out of the fullness of my knowledge that I am making this suggestion, which, if the honorable member and his friends had heeded years ago, would have saved a good deal of the trouble that now prevails in the mining districts. I made the suggestion when we were discussing the last amendment to the Arbitration Act, but I regret to say it was turned down, and ever since these troubles have multiplied indefinitely and continuously. It is an easy way of bringing about peace as to many of these troubles which irritate the men and cause these .constantlyrecurring strikes.

Sir, this record of 824 strikes in two years of war time is a record of shame. The real fundamental trouble in these days is the growing sense of disrespect for law and authority. It is useless to blink the fact. When the decisions of the Court are flouted, how can there be any respect for the laws that govern and control us? That is the root of the trouble in connexion with our industrial productivities. If our Democracy, particularly on the industrial side, is to develop as it ought to develop, there must be social, as well as. military, discipline, the laws must :be obeyed when they are made, and the decisions of the Courts must be obeyed, and there must be continuity of employment in this country. If we are to proceed on the lines of arbitration and the :settlement of disputes by law, there must be a reasonably complete acceptation of awards when they are made. The trouble nowadays is that when an award is made “it is regarded as a jumping-off point for another, and there is no end to the matter. lt never ceases. Therefore, there is no -order or security in the evolution of industry, and there is constant trouble, -which hits the man as hard as it hits the proprietor. No employer can make contracts for two or three years ahead, as he should be able to do. This kind of thing goes on. To-day both sides are suffering. I am not speaking for the one more than the other. I am pointing out that we must get at the fundamental principles of this question before we can get back to industrial and -social peace in this country.

Just now there is necessity for the nation producing more and more - that is the great outstanding requirement - just when the nation needs every ounce of its energy and strength pressed into its productive industrial enterprises, when the call is on the whole nation, it is brought up standing because of a dispute which could «nd should have been settled long ago in the mining districts themselves. Our war debts are increasing. Our perpetual obligations are increased. Therefore, increased production is the requirement of the moment, and that just at the time when there are less “men to do the producing. It may be that when our men come back from the war they will be better men for having gone, better disciplined, and more efficient. Let us hope that that will be one of the results of the terrible struggle through which they are passing, and of the discipline which they must necessarily endure while they are away from our shores ; let us hope that it will send them back better and more efficient citizens, for assuredly they will be needed when they come back to help us to bear the staggering burdens of the war. More men and more resources are needed, and the sooner we get down to these bed-rock principles the better it will be for us.

I have been, led aside somewhat because, in order that trouble might be avoided in the future, I felt that I had to answer the points that the last speaker stressed in his speech of an hour and a half. The position in this House is very peculiar. A Government is in power with less than a third of the members of the House whom it can call direct supporters.

Mr Hampson:

– The position is a bit anomalous.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It is a little anomalous, thanks to the efforts of my friends, and thanks to the political mess they have made of things. Just when we need a National Government-

Mr Sharpe:

– Where is the National Government now ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member may sneer at the idea of a National Government, but never was there greater need for the whole of the members of this House, and every other House, to concentrate every ounce of energy on the war problems confronting us, and never was there a greater crime than the declarations that have come from the Corner benches that honorable members will fight the men on the Ministerial benches politically down-and-out for no other than a political reason.

I am glad to see, once and for all, in the forefront of the statement of the Prime Minister that responsible government does count for something in this country. In the immediate past, one has been led to wonder many times as to what had become of responsible government, but, at any rate, in the forefront of the statement of die Prime Minister, there is his declaration of freedom. Whatever has occurred in the past, no more will he permit outside organizations to dog his footsteps in the House on matters which concern no pledge or platform, but he will preserve the freedom that ought to belong to free men, and in facing the. great national responsibilities that confront him he will decline to take the dictation of any outside body or junta.

Mr Tudor:

– “ Tes, Mr. Cook.”

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– During the absence of the honorable member for Tarra, I read a resolution which was passed yesterday declaring that in the interests of humanity, which includes all our enemies, it was necessary to formulate conditions of peace at the earliest possible moment. I should like to ask the honorable member whether he concurs with that resolution?

Mr Tudor:

– Put that question on th* notice-paper.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is exactly the answer that I expected to get from the honorable member, but he either agrees with the resolution or does not agree with it. If he does not agree with it, I should hope to hear that he has the courage to say he does not. ‘ If he does agree with it, then we shall know exactly where he stands in his new responsibility in relation to this world-wide war. The Prime Minister has said -

The Government, considering that such methods are not only inconsistent with responsible government, but incompatible with the basic principle of democratic representative government - rule by the majority of the electors through their duly elected representatives in the Parliament - sets its face steadfastly against them.

I quote that statement with great (pleasure. To me it is like an echo from past years. The manifesto reminds me of one which I issued twenty-five years ago, couched in much the same terms, though framed under different circumstances. I then emphasized the point that a representative should be a representative, and not a mere delegate or the mouth-piece of outside organizations. This is not a mere technicality or matter of political prudery; it is a basic, fundamental, democratic principle. A member should keep in touch with those who send him to Parliament. He owes his allegiance first to the nation as a whole, and, secondly, to his constituents. I congratulate the Prime Minister on the assertion of this principle after his troubled experiences. No Government can rightly discharge its duties to the country if hampered and hamstrung by outside organizations. No Government can do what it should do if on the floor of the House Ministers . cannot answer “Yes” or “No” to a question such as that which I have just put to the Leader of the Australian Labour party. I am one of those old-fashioned people who believe with Edmund Burke that a man’s electors have as much right to know his opinions when he is against them as when he is for them. But there is something incomplete about the statement of the Prime Minister. Responsible government, for its proper and efficient working, requires not only the freedom of the Administration from outside influences, coteries, and. juntas, particularly in relation to national matters, but also the existence o’f a party in the House, working, framing, shaping, and adjusting its proposals, and carrying them into effect by means of the strength inherent in those who follow them.

As to the referendum. I deeply regret, what has taken place, and the position in which we find ourselves. However, it is useless to cry over spilt milk. The vote has been taken, and the result is that the camps are now nearly empty. That is the tragic fact that we have to face. Those who advocated a “ No “ vote cannot explain it away. There are no men for reinforcements. What are they going to do about that now ? They killed every proposal that the Government put forward. What is their constructive policy ?

There were many incidents which militated against the success of the “ Yes “ vote, and I am bound tosay, militate also against recruiting. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports and others set out to shorten the line, and they have shortened it. They have shortened it from five divisions to four. That is the result of their efforts. What has taken place is very unfortunate. My honorable friends are enthusiastic over their win. They have won; but some wins are equivalent to failures. This is a win which injuriously affects the nation. I leave to my honorable friends what glory they can get out of the present military situation.

Mr Hampson:

– The “No “ vote was the best thing that ever happened in Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The vote enables us to see how we stand. My honorable friend and others of his party say, in effect, that they are out of the war altogether, that Australia has sent all the men who should go.

Mr Hampson:

– No one has said that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member- for Fawkner has said that there is a limit to the number that we can send, and that we have reached that limit. What does that mean in plain English but that Australia should send no more men, that we are out of the war altogether ?

Mr Burns:

– The honorable member for Fawkner did not say that we were up to the limit.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member did say so.

– I know as much about the Department of Home Affairs as my honorable friend does - perhaps a . little more - and a stop should be put to this kind of thing at the earliest possible moment.

During the last recess we also had a Royal Commission inquiring into another squabble in the Northern Territory. Here it was a dispute between two officials - the one making charges against the other. I do not think that Gilbert and Sullivan ever conceived anything so ludicrous as we have beheld here in recent days in connexion with this squabbling in the Departments.

Sir William Irvine:

– It is the necessary result of an elective Ministry.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– There is no doubt about it. This strife has resulted in greatly increased cost in the government of the Northern Territory, the Federal Capital, the Defence Department, in our Small Arms Factory, and in connexion with the building of the cruiser Brisbane. Throughout the whole ramifications of the service there has been this constant friction, turmoil, and want of harmony, with resulting cost to all the services. This madness ought lo cease.

On the cessation of this strife and friction, there ought to be a vigorous pruning of the expenditure of all the Departments. Any expenditure that can stand over until the war is over ought to do so. That’ is the principle I lay down. I do not care where this expenditure is going on, if it can wait reasonably till the war is over, it should be firmly made to do so. I hope soon to see something done in that direction. Honorable members ask me where I would begin. I would begin on all our public works. Let anything at the Federal Capital, if you like, wait till the war is over, if it can reasonably be allowed to wait. Take the East-West railway. I speak with bated breath and whispering humbleness of this work, iti the presence of the right honorable member for Swan; but even there anything that can wait should be firmly set aside until the fight is over. In the Northern Territory - I do not know what to say about it, I was going to describe it as a sink of public money - some drastic reforms should be made. Our experimentation has been far too costly. It has been carried on upon too great and lavish a scale.

Since we know, from bitter experience and at great public cost, some of the things we cannot yet do up there, the whole scheme of its government should be shorn down conformably with the work that is left us to do, and to do with some prospect of efficiency and success.

One undertaking that I would not cur.tail is the Murray waters scheme. Every penny devoted to that work will be money wisely spent. I see no more promising repatriation scheme in the whole of Australia. The sooner the Government get to work upon it in a practical way, and develop it, the sooner we shall be able to make homes, comfortable, happy, and smiling, I hope, for many of the brave boys who are now doing their bit at the front. That is an expenditure that cannot wait. It is doubly urgent in view of the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

Whilst we. ourselves are setting this example, I hope we shall force economy upon the States. I say that deliberately. It is high time we did. If we ourselves are going to save - if we are going to administer the physic to ourselves - then we must see that the States receive an equal dose. We must stop the nonsense that is going on in Queensland, where, with our money, which ought to be devoted to the war, the State Premier is buying stations, opening butchers’ shops, and pushing on with .his Socialistic enterprises. That ought instantly to stop, and there should be no repetition of it. The situation, as I see it, is not an easy one. On the contrary, I take it to be somewhat confused. But if we only address ourselves to the task as we ought to do, and stand up to it with firmness, determination, and sagacity, it ought not to be beyond our compass to control it in a way that will suit the requirements of the war.

For some time past proposals have been pouring out from this Government and its predecessors for inceased taxation. No one objects to taxation if it is needed; but I object to the multiplication of taxes unless it can be shown that the proceeds are to be specifically devoted to war purposes. I object to piling those burdens on the people to keep our ordinary civic administration going. Do honorable members realize the extent of the taxation’ we are paying? Last year our Commonwealth direct taxation, all told, was £6,500,000. This year, if the Govern ment realize all they anticipate, we shall impose direct taxation to the extent of £10,500,000, ostensibly for war purposes, and made up as follows: - Land tax, £2,000,000; probate duties, a little over £500,000; income tax, about £4,500,000; war-time profits taxation, £1,500,000; entertainments tax, £350,000; .and onefifth of the wealth levy, £1,835,000. That gives us a total of £10,500,000 sterling.

Mr Sampson:

– What proportion of that is war taxation ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Owing to the accounting system adopted in the Treasury and other Departments, there is no possibility of finding that out. Although for two years there has been a demand from this side of the House for the separation of these accounts, a beginning has not been made in that direction. And so it comes about that at the end of the year we are still without Estimates, and without a proper Budget statement. Here is an increased taxation of over £4,000,000 sterling in one year alone. All the facts - and I regret that they are the facts - indicate that our spendings will not be as much as we anticipated on the war. The Treasurer himself says he anticipates spending on the war £6,000,000 less than was forecasted by his predecessor a few weeks ago. If we are going to spend less and less on the war, why should we multiply these taxes? We* should remember that the money which these taxes represent, left in the people’s pockets, can be put to reproductive use. Until we actually need them for war purposes it is far better, therefore, to leave them in reserve. Itseems to me that they will be needed before we are through with the war. Above all else, we ought not to attempt to waste our reserves as we go along. Rather should we conserve them, holding them for the days of stress and strain, when we can call upon them appropriately to fulfil the nation’s need’s, and to perform the nation’s tasks-

Taking the balance-sheet by and large. I candidly do not see that there is need for all this increased taxation. As to the proposed wealth levy, I have always preferred to regard it as a war charge, and to have it put on the same basis as other war expenditure; or, if something special is to be done, I see no reason why we should not raise a war loan for this purpose, and ear-mark a portion of the direct taxation to pay it off in a very much shorter time. This levying on the wealth of the community is a thing to he done with the greatest possible delicacy and care. If you destroy or diminish the wealth of the community, you destroy its source of income ; and we may not do that to any extent with« impunity.

– Before the honorable member continues his speech we should have a quorum. Seven honorable members is not a fair audience. [Quorum formed.]

SirROBERT BEST. - There is something very attractive in the idea of a tax on war-time profits, but if that tax is to be imposed at the expense of our industries, and at the risk of a limitation of production, we should hesitate, and consider well, the terms in which it should be operated. The Prime Minister, when interviewed by a deputation in London some months ago, laid down certain fundamental principles to be observed, and this was the view he expressed when dealing with the subject of double taxation -

Whilst substantial taxation can never be made very acceptable to the taxpayer, it must at any rate be just. The object must be obtained with as little friction as possible, and all persons affected must be treated alike.

I think the Treasurer has realized, to a certain extent, that the Bill in its present form proposes some very striking inequalities, and will act disastrously if permitted to come into operation without radical alteration. In his statement he admitted as much when he said: “ The operation of such a tax in an old and established country where businesses, generally speaking, are of long standing, is not a reliable guide to us in a new country.” I cordially agree with that statement. He said also that the Department had investigated some 300 balance-sheets of companies, and they disclosed the fact that old and established businesses are not affected by war-time profits legislation to the same extent as businesses of recent formation. Those words are essentially correct, although I am not sure that the Treasurer realizes the extent of their accuracy in the proposal he is making. Every professional man is aware of many vast concerns earning incomes of as much as £80,000 per annum - old and established firms and individuals who will not be touched by the war-time profits legislation. A striking anomaly under the present Bill is that an old-established business may have been making 20 per cent. or 100 per cent., or any percentage you like, for years past, and if a new or less prosperous business in the same trade makes during the war 8 or 9 per cent., that is, anything above the statutory percentage of 6 or 7 per cent., the latter is taxed, and the former escapes. I do not protest against the former escaping, but I use the example to show the inequalities created, and the folly of the measure. It is the little man and the new businesses which will suffer under these proposals.

Mr Page:

– What does it matter who suffers so long as the Government get the “ boodle”?

SirROBERT BEST.- If the Government are seeking revenue they can get better results in- a much more equitable way. There are many cases, some of which have been brought under the notice of the Treasurer, of new businesses which have had a struggling existence for the past four or five years, and only now are beginning to reap any substantial result. To such businesses the present Bill spells absolute disaster. I could quote many cases of the kind which have come under my individual notice. The Treasurer admits that businesses of this character must be specially dealt with, and I do impress upon him that, perhaps to a greater extent than he realizes, this legislation will work disaster if some comprehensive alteration in it is not made.

Mr Poynton:

– The amendments which I have in view will give relief in that direction.

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– I ‘am glad to hear that. I would also remind the Treasurer that the war has brought into existence many new businesses and partnerships, through businesses being turned into companies, or partners being taken in, to enable the principals to go to the war, or for some like reason. There ought to be some provision whereby the profits originally made by such a business should be taken into account in ascertaining the pre-war standard of profits. The pre-war standard is to be ascertained by either taking two out of the three prewar years and arriving at the general average, or by fixing a statutory percentage, 6 per cent, in the case of companies, and 7 per cent, in the case of individuals. That provision is absolutely inadequate, and I would urge the Treasurer, when considering this matter, to remember that the special risks of trade at the present time make it -absolutely essential that the margin should be at least 12 or 15 per cent. If the Treasurer can see his way clear to increase the statutory percentage a very substantial means of relief will be afforded.

Mr Manifold:

– Money is worth 6 per cent, without the application of any energy at all.

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– That is so; and in these times of dear money it is not fair that 6 per cent, should be statutorily fixed as a reasonable remuneration. The Treasurer proposes to take for the year ended 30th June last 50 per cent, of profits.

– Perhaps not. But what I propose would remove the difficulties and inequalities of which I have spoken.

Mr Poynton:

– I was considering the matter the night before last.

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– I hope that the Treasurer will give it further attention, and that he will sympathetically consider the other matters to which I have referred as having come under my individual notice.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

Mr HIGGS:

– The Treasurer will gain nothing by his failure to extend this courtesy to me. Had I been supplied with a copy of his financial statement at the same time as the Leader of the Opposition, I might have been able to assist him in the remarks I am about to make. The honorable gentleman has seen fit to reduce my estimate of revenue from the war-time profits tax. Instead of the 100 per cent. that we proposed to take, he intends to take only 75 per cent. of war profits. The present Prime Minister was in favour of the original proposal, and, as far as I know, the present Treasurer also approved of it. What is the reason for the alteration ?

Mr Page:

– It is part of the price which the Government have to pay for the support of the Liberal party.

Mr HIGGS:

– Quite so, and I venture to say that when theBill is brought down the percentage of war-time profits proposed to be taken will be still further reduced as soon as members of the Liberal party enter a protest. The Treasurer, in fact; will be quite prepared to accept any reduction proposed by the Liberal party. In attempting to estimate the revenue to be derived from the War-time Profits Bill, one is merely groping in the dark.

– The land tax does not affect the bond fide fanner. Those who have read the lecture recently delivered by a Director of Agriculture, in which he dwelt on the drift of population towards our big cities, will realize that the lot of the farmer cannot be as happy as it ought to be; otherwise, such a drift would not be setting in. We should make the lot of the farmer as pleasant and profitable as possible.

There are some honorable members, however, who would go further, and exempt the pastoral industry. While some pastoralists in the droughtstricken areas have been hit severely, there are many, particularly those who are shareholders in the big companies, who have been making huge profits on account of the increase in the price of wool since the outbreak of the war.

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– Who suggested that they should be exempt? No such suggestion has been made in this House.

Mr HIGGS:

– Am I to understand, then, that the Leader of the Liberal party does not desire to exempt the pastoral industry ?

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I know nothing about it. Give notice of that question.

Sir John Forrest:

– I would exempt all primary industries.

Mr HIGGS:

– The Leader of the Liberal party was never in better ford as a mud-slinger than he was this afternoon. He did his utmost, with the very extensive vocabulary of objectionable epi«thet at his command, to associate the parliamentary Labour party with the Industrial Workers of the World.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I did not.

Mr HIGGS:

– Then, what was the object of the right honorable member’s questions to the honorable member for Fawkner in regard to the Industrial Workers of the World? While that honorable member was speaking, a member of the Liberal party interjected that he had given three cheers for the Industrial Workers of the World. That interjection, which was reported in this morning’s issue of the Argus, was a vicious slander, and will do the honorable member for

Fawkner some harm until he is able to reach the ears of his constituents.

Was it fair for the honorable member for Richmond to make such an assertion? I am convinced that the honorable member for Fawkner has never approved of the methods of certain members of the Industrial Workers of the World, who, apparently, have been encouraging people to burn down buildings, while others have been convicted even of murder.

I read recently of a case in which a man in the Parramatta electorate was convicted of burglary, but I have not heard the Leader of the Liberal party denounce his crime. Why does he not denounce the various crimes of forgery and uttering which have been committed? Why does he not denounce Lucretia Borgia and other poisoners? He makes no reply, and I invite members of my party to treat in the same way the questions that he puts to them. 1

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Would I do any good by denouncing Lucretia Borgia?

Mr HIGGS:

Mr Riley:

– Perhaps he wishes to go away again !

Mr HIGGS:

– Perhaps so, though I dare say some objection would be raised by the Leader of the Opposition, who has not had a trip for some years; and I believe we should be very glad to give him one.

The proposed levy for repatriation purposes met with a good deal of criticism outside; it was referred to as a hurried measure, as indeed it was. But who was responsible for the hurry? Not the ex-Treasurer. The Treasurer cannot be Prime Minister as well as Treasurer, and that Minister must have some say. The Prime Minister was in favour of this levy; in fact, I do not suppose he would deny that it was his proposal. Why is he now running away from it? Is it. because there are only thirteen members of his party in the House, and he fears the Opposition? As Treasurer, T said we would consider the proposal, which was .brought in in a hurry, because the Prime Minister, as he always is, was in a hurry. The proposal was not approved by the Government until half-an-hour before the House met on the day on which it was introduced; and the financial statement had to be delivered within two hours afterwards. In fact, about the time the House was meeting I was reading over the financial statement in type at the Government Printing Office, in order to expedite matters for the convenience of honorable members.

– That is so, although I doubt whether the proposed legislation will be passed. The interest bill has increased from £250,000 in 1914 to an estimated amount of £6,500,000 for the current financial year.

To the Prime Minister’s Department has been added the control of metals and the wheat transactions, not to mention the extra work which the Prime Minister has been doing in connexion with, the military service referendum.

Quite a number of new duties has been imposed upon the Customs Department, including the purchase of goods for other Governments and the employment of officers abroad in doing Customs, work. In the External Affairs Department there is a good deal of extra work, and the Department of the AttorneyGeneral has to cope with all the labour connected with the prevention of enemy trading and the prosecutions therefor.

– I am interested to hear that, but I understood that a Bill introduced by the Holman Government for that purpose was passed by the Legislative Assembly and rejected by the Tipper House.

The expenditure on the Federal Capital has been the subject of some criticism. When I was in charge of the Treasury, a proposal was made that we should spend £500,000 on the Federal Capital in the present financial year, but, with the consent of the Government, that item was cut down to £150,000. I am sure that the Leader of the Liberal party, who represents a New South Wales constituency, will not consent to the wholesale reduction of expenditure in connexion with the Federal Capital.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I am prepared to cut down expenditure all round.

Mr HIGGS:

– Including that on the Federal Capital?

– If the honorable member had his way he would play ducks and drakes with a sinking fund. That is the trouble. We may have a big sinking fund but it all depends upon the Government of the day what is done with it.

I wish to say a word or two about the Treasurer’s Advance, which has caused the Treasurer some trouble. He has discovered that the sum of £1,700,000 has been voted by the House as Treasurer’s Advance; and he thinks this* is too large a sum. If a Government is not going to meet Parliament it must have a Treasurer’s Advance of large dimensions. We cannot allow every Minister to please himself as to what he spends.- Some one must keep an eye on the expenditure and that individual should be the Treasurer. Among the items which I agreed should be paid out of the Treasurer’s Advance during the month of September were £38,500 for the Kalgoorlie-Port Augusta railway and £41,300 for the purchase of foodstuffs for the Government of India. There was nothing wrong in connexion with the expenditure of the Treasurer’s Advance.

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– Was there anything paid on account of the ships that were purchased by the Prime Minister?

Mr HIGGS:

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must withdraw those words.

Mr HIGGS:

– If you insist on it, 1 withdraw them

I wish, in the few minutes remaining to me, to deal with the subject of recruiting. If there has been a falling-off in the number of volunteers, it is due to the fact that the Prime Minister and the honorable members for Flinders and Balaclava have discouraged recruiting by their speeches and conduct. To deal first with the honorable member for Flinders: This gallant Knight Commander of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George has appeared on several public platforms urging men to go to the front. He has told the public that there are thousands of persons who are hungering to do something in connexion with the war. Why has he not done more than make speeches? Is there no work - noncombatant work - that he could do at the front ?

Mr Joseph Cook:

– They would not allow him to go.

Mr HIGGS:

– Yes, they would. Other gentlemen with large incomes have gone. The honorable member for Flinders, who would compel the sons of the poor to go, makes no attempt to perform these services which he says others are hungering to perform. He prefers to stay here and rake in the guineas that he can make by his practice in the courts of law, returning to his well-feathered nest at nighttime. His conduct has discouraged recruiting.

But that of the honorable member for Balaclava has been very much worse. On the 2nd February, last year, speaking at an Australian Natives’ Association banquet, he said -

I hope I may be pardoned for giving expression to an opinion on a recent event, the telegram of President Wilson to the Kaiser wishing him luck on his birthday.

A Voice. - The mongrel.

Mr Watt:

– I think no more wanton, profligate outrage was ever perpetrated.

Mark the extravagance of the language. The mere sending of a birthday telegram is a “ wanton profligate outrage.” This gentleman is accustomed to use that sort of language. Apparently, he cannot find any other. Surely public men, in referring to the leading citizens of other nations, should at all times use the language of moderation. The honorable member was known abroad as the exPremier of Victoria, and naturally people there might attach more importance to his words than would those in this State who know him so well. He does not use the language of moderation; he prefers the language of vituperation, hoping, I suppose, that it will give to him the appearance of bravery which he does not in reality possess. He went on to say on this occasion -

It is not a birthday, but a death day, of William of Hohenzollern that we want, and I trust the day is not far distant when the Allies will say to him, in the scarlet words of Shakespeare, “Down, down to deepest hell, and say I sent thee.”

Mark the newspaper comment: “Loud and tumultuous applause which continued for some minutes.” Is it any wonder that his audience applauded ? The people were profoundly moved by these words. They said, no doubt, °” At last we have a man who is prepared, if need be, to do and die.” The honorable member for Balaclava at any time during the last two and a half years might have gone to Europe and have been within a few miles of the Kaiser. But no, he has preferred to stay in Australia and fight the Kaiser with his mouth.

Mr Pigott:

– What about the honorable member for Capricornia?

Mr Sinclair:

– He would not take him on.

Mr HIGGS:

– I do not mind taking you on if you like. Let me deal one at a time with these brave gentlemen. Do not let us pay too much attention to the bovine representative of a bovine constituency such as the honorable member for Moreton. In an article headed, “The Unchained Tiger,” “Mr. Watt may fight,” the Argus of 8th July, 1915, stated that at a recruiting meeting held at Moonee Ponds, the honorable member for Balaclava said -

The position is about as desperate as it can be….. I am sometimes asked at meetings why I do not go myself. It is not intended as a question to embarrass me -

Imagine any question that could embarrass a gentleman with the colossal impudence of our honorable friend - but is a natural inquiry to understand how it is that men who pretend to be leaders of public thought are not offering to do their share, but are advising other people to go. I fully expect, at the right time, and before this war is over, to go with the men of my age and circumstances.

A Voice. - We will all go with you.

Mr Watt:

– Do not think I say that boastfully. I say that in order that you may see how grave the situation is to many of us.

That was on the 7th July, 1915. A year and five months have since elapsed and the honorable member is still here.

Mr Watt:

– Hear, hear ! That is what annoys the honorable member.

Mr HIGGS:

– Not at all. The honorable member does not annoy me. In a speech which the honorable member for Batman delivered at the Bijou Theatre, on 4th July, 1915, he explained, as reported in the Argus on the following day, that-

He was not a fighting man, nor had he ever pretended to be one, “I have been the man who looks to reason and conciliation to fix these great disputes,” he added with warmth. “ The men who should go to fill the gaps, and go hurriedly to the gaps, are those who are urging young men from the platforms. If these warlike people can do the business of war, we peaceful people can attend to other questions. Every man for his own job. If I were suddenly transported to Gallipoli, and if a loaded rifle were placed in my hands, and I saw a Turk in front of me, I would not pull the trigger.”

Because of this expression of opinion on the part of the honorable member for Batman, the honorable member for Balaclava said next day that he should be deprived of his seat. Speaking of him in what I regard as most objectionable terms, he said -

He wondered if Mr. Brennan could really be the man who had taken the oath of true allegiance to King George. …” This man,” said Mr. Watt, “ comes from a family with every member of which I am acquainted, and he is the only pigeon-livered member of it.”

Naturally, that criticism stung the honorable member for Batman. Speaking in this House on 8th July, 1915, he said -

I tell him (Mr. Watt) now is the time, and to-morrow morning at the recruiting office I challenge him to meet me, and I will go with him. . . . This is the time. I am not a fighting man, but I can bear stretchers, build barbed-wire entanglements, and carry my dead comrades off the field. … I never “said I feared death, and am prepared to prove it. I said what I feared, and could not do, was to take life. But if Mr. Watt wants a man to go into the danger zone with him I will go.

He invited the honorable member for Balaclava to go with him to the recruiting office at the Town Hall next morning at 10 o’clock. The honorable member for Balaclava did not go, but the honorable member for Batman was at the Town Hall ready to go.

Mr Sinclair:

– He did not go past the Town Hall, did he?

Mr HIGGS:

– That is the kind of interjection I should expect from a Jersey cow if it could speak. The honorable member for Balaclava, on 9th July, 1915, said -

I am sixteen months within the age limit of forty-five. I am a married man. . . . The circumstances of my business and finances are these: that if I went to the war to-morrow those children would be indifferently provided for.

The honorable member would have had his parliamentary salary as well as what he could earn at the front. This statement on the part of the honorable member, which was made in the course of a public meeting, greatly stirred his audience. The people thought he was replying to the honorable member for Batman’s challenge, and were expecting a certain word to come from him, just as great audiences in Melbourne were expecting the Prime Minister to use the word “conscription.” He worked them up to a great pitch of excitement by means of his eloquent periods, and went on to say -

I will go to-morrow morning (loud cheers) - at any time - (renewed cheers) -

The audience expected him to say that he would go to the recruiting office. Where was he to go? To the front? No; to Mr. Fisher! Greatly modified cheers! He went on to say -

I will tell him (Mr. Fisher) the facts of my life as I have roughly told you, and if he says it is up to me to go, I will volunteer within half-an-hour.

Mr MAHONY:

– Yes.

This is the statement of Private Roy Fountain -

Statement of Roy Fountain.

On the 10th March three of us, Privates Quill, H. J. Dalton, and self, three of us on the same charge, were sentenced for three years’ penal servitude. No, it was not for manslaughter or blackmail, but for disobeying in such a manner as to show wilful disregard of military discipline and authority, as the crimesheet shows it. And^ they still say, “Your King and country need you.” And to think that a man enlisted to fight for men like that. After seventeen weeks on the Peninsula, we, 20th Battalion, were sent back to Egypt, and then across the Suez Canal on the Arabian Desert. One of the jobs allotted to our battalion was that of building a light railway. There was a party of us told off for outpost duty. Next morning the party for railway was found to be short, and our party was taken at a minute’s notice to make up the complement. Before leaving for work, we asked Sergeant Turner about water, as we would be away from camp from 8 a.m. till 4.30 p.m. We could get no satisfaction - the rest of the party had filled their bottles previous to this. On arriving at the job about 8.30 a.m., after a march of 1 mile, the three of us (Quill, Dalton, and self) were told off with a party ‘ under Corporal Cunningham. We sat down, and did not start work. The corporal came along and asked us why we were not working, and we said we wanted some water first. He, the corporal, said that water would be sent for at 10 o’clock, that would mean 11.30 before it came back- we would have to work in the broiling sun with a shovel for three hours without a drink. We asked the corporal for a drink out of his bottle, which was then full of water, and were refused. Sergeant Turner was then brought along, and he also refused us a drink. Lieutenant Blanchard also refused us. We were then placed under arrest, and we were tried by court martial on the 10th March. At court martial it was pointed out this was my first offence, and my character was very good.

That is the case for those boys who to-day are in a criminal prison in New South Wales. On receiving that letter, I brought the matter under the notice of the Minister for Defence, by letter, and received the following reply from the Acting Secretary of the Department for Defence, under date of 23rd June, 1916 -

With reference to representations made by you concerning Privates Quill, H. J. Dalton, and Roy Fountain, who have been returned from the front under sentence for disobedience, I am directed to inform you that the courtmartial proceedings in these cases have not yet come to hand; but, on their receipt, the matter referred to in your letter will receive prompt consideration.

I waited in the ordinary way for the promised communication; but having received no further word, on the 4th October I sent the following “ chaser “ after our friend Senator Pearce -

Re case of Privates Quill, Dalton, and Fountain, who were seventeen weeks in trenches, Gallipoli, now doing three years in criminal gaol. Public of Sydney wants to know how much longer these boys are to be kept as criminals.

To that telegram I received the following reply, despatched from Melbourne on 16th October, twelve days later -

With reference to your telegram of the 4th instant, respecting the case of Privates Quill, Dalton, and Fountain, of the Australian Imperial Force, who are at present under sentence of three years’ imprisonment, I am directed to inform you that, pending the receipt of the proceedings of the Courts which tried these men, it is regretted that it is not possible to take any action. The proceedings have been cabled for from England, and should be shortly available, and on their receipt it is proposed’ to submit these cases for the consideration of the Committee appointed to review court-martial sentences.

The boys had been sentenced by court martial in” March. In June, the Department said that the papers had not arrived, and in October the papers were still unavailable. Now the Department proposes to’ cable to somebody - God knows who and where - to send the papers in connexion with the case. All this time these boys are incarcerated in a criminal gaol in New South Wales. It ‘ is that sort of thing which is damaging recruiting in Australia.

Mr Webster:

– It is the parading of these cases that is having that result.

Mr MAHONY:

– These three boys are young Australians, who gladly answered the call of duty. They have their relatives - one man has a wife and children, the other boys. have their parents, and the three families have their friends. Particulars of their harsh treatment spread like wildfire. Questions concerning the case came to me from fully fifty different sources as to what action I am taking in the matter. I am about “ fed up “ with sitting down and waiting for Senator Pearce to do something. In future, if I cannot get satisfaction in the ordinary way, I will use my privileges as a member of this House.

Mr Webster:

– . You have only ex parte evidence, anyway.

Mr MAHONY:

– What evidence has the Department other than a statement that they were sentenced by a court martial in Egypt? How does the Minister know that those men received a fair deal ? In view of the statement of the boys themselves, why cannot the ‘Minister allow them out on parole? The boys and the people are well known, and plenty of sureties could be obtained. Why should not the Department liberate these prisoners, holding the sureties until the papers arrive, and then if it is proved that they have been guilty of something which deserves punishment to the extent of three years’ imprisonment in a common gaol, perhaps we will allow them to go there. One of these boys held a responsible position in . a public Department, but he felt it ‘ to be his duty to give up that position and go to the front. The three of them served for seventeen weeks in that hole of hell, Gallipoli, and even if they did commit an indiscretion, even if they had the awful temerity to ask for a drink of water in the Egyptian desert, that does not justify them being sent to a criminal gaol for three years.

Mr Webster:

– Let us have the full facts, and not half the case.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Why do they not crucify them ?

Mr MAHONY:

– Yes; mangle them. Instead of “ Mangling Doyle’s manifesto,” let it be “ Mangling Gallipoli heroes.” We should not be too harsh on the Australian boys who have been to Gallipoli. They had never been under militarism previously, and, after leaving sunny conditions here and being suddenly thrown where the lid was taken off hell, it was only natural to expect that some of them would lose their mental balance. Let us show that we hav.e some sympathy for them, and that we are prepared to assist them. Do not let them be dealt with by the iron hand of militarism. I have received the following letter: - 36th (Riflemen’s) Battalion Comforts Committee.

Patroness, Lady Edeline Strickland ; Presidents, The. Lady Mayoress, Mrs. Logan, Mrs. Campbell Carmichael ; Chairman of Committee, J. F. Coates, Esq.; Hon. Auditor, Allred. Newmarch, F.C.P.A. (public accountant) ; Hon: Treasurer,. W. J. Tidex, A.I.I.A. ; Hon. Secretary, Miss. B. Pillinger: 138 George-street West, Sydney, 7th November, 1916.

G. Mahony, Esq., M.H.R.,

C/o Commonwealth Bank,

Moore-street, City.

Dear Sir,

Mr. J. F. Coates, Chairman of the above Committee, has asked’ me to place the following facts before you, and: ask you if you would kindly have the matter immediately inquired into.

On the 13th of May this Comforts Committee had nine hundred pairsof sand shoes placed on board the transportA72, along with the 36th Battalion, for the use of the men on. board the boat. These shoes were paid for by money raised by this committee, and were a free gift to the men. We now hold a letter from one of the men, stating that the shoes were sold to the men of the 36th Battalion on board the boat at1s. per. pair.

What my committee wishes to know is : - Is it correct for the gifts from the Comforts Funds to be sold to the men for whom they are intended? If it is correct, what becomes of the money received for them ?

If it is not correct, why was it done in this case? - and what became of the money received ?

We would be very glad if you could place this matter before the military authorities, and let us know what explanation they have to give, as soon as possible.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Sincerely yours,

Pillinger, Hon. Sec.

I sent a copy of that letter to the Defence Department, and received the following reply : -

Department of Defence,

Melbourne, 13th November, 1916

Dear Sir,

I am directed by the Minister- to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 8th instant, relative to a statement by the Hon. Secretary, 36th (Riflemen’s) Battalion Comforts Committee, that sand shoes placed on board the transport A 72 for the. use of the. men were sold to them at1s. per pair, and to inform you it is regretted that there is no information available at present in this Department on the subject.

However, in view of the importance of the question raised, immediate inquiriesin the matter are being made from the Australian Comforts Fund authorities abroad, and you will be further advised immediately a reply is forthcoming.

Yours faithfully,

Trumble, Acting Secretary.
G. Mahony, Esq., M.P.,

Federal Parliament House, Melbourne

The state of affairs shown in the letter from the Comforts Committee, if true, is a scandal, and the reply from the Department shows that there is laxity somewhere when such a thing can take place, and’ they admit that there is no information available up to the present time on the subject. If the Departmentis being run as it should be run, and the interests of the men are considered, it ought to know immediately whether any comforts were placed on a transport for the use of men. There is too much of this sort of thing. going on. It creates an uneasy feeling in the minds of people that the goods, they donate for the use of the troops are not being given tothem, but are being sold to them, and that some one is making money out of the deal. The great thing that is helping to kill recruiting is the laxity in the administration of the Defence Department. Unsympathetic administration tends to kill that healthy feeling which enables a good response to be made to the call for volunteers. I. opposed compulsion, and I am still opposed to it, but I am not opposed to voluntarism. I have always been in. favour of it. and have always endeavoured to do my bit for my country. I am still prepared to do what I think is the right thing.

Mr MAHONY:

– I believe that commonsense administration of the Defence Department would help to get recruits more than the sending of flamboyant telegrams all over the country. We wouldget far more recruits and more confidence in the Department. What kills recruiting is the fact that the people outside have no confidence in the administration of the military authorities to-day.

Mr Webster:

– The honorable member does not propose to go out and help.

Mr MAHONY:

– Statements about “ Routing- the shirkers,” “Inspiring the’ workers,” and “ Australia will be there “ cut. no ice. What will help far better to. win the war will be common-sense administration by the Department. I hope that the- Department will give serious consideration to cases such as those I have mentioned, and when an honorable member approaches the Minister for Defence the Minister might have the ordinary decency to treat him with courtesy, and, at least, listen to what he has to say in reference to the matter he wishes to put forward .

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– Is there any objection to adjourning the debate!

Mr Poynton:

– No, .but I. wish the honorable member to understand that I want the Supply Bill put through to-morrow, in order to get it to the Senate.

Mr TuDOR:

– It all depends upon how many speakers there are- from the Liberal party, because the members of my party are prepared to sit on to-night if they are not to have an opportunity of speaking to-morrow.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Cook. - This is the first Leader of an Opposition that I have everheard ask a Government to sit all night.

Progress reported.

House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 7 December 1916, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1916/19161207_reps_6_80/>.

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House of Representatives 7 December 1916

QUESTION

KNITTING MILLS

Mr TUDOR:YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr JENSEN:Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr SPENCE:Vice-President of the Executive Council · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

PAPERS

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BAMFORD:Minister for Home and Territories · HERBERT, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

Mr BAMFORD:

QUESTION

ENGLISH LABOUR LEADER

Mr BURNS:ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WEBSTER:Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

PARLOUR MAIDS, STATE GOVERNMENT HOUSE

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

SALE OF AUSTRALIAN WHEAT

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

TRAINEES FOR HOME DEFENCE

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:ALP

Mr MATHEWS:MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:

QUESTION

PRICE FIXING

Mr SINCLAIR:MORETON, QUEENSLAND

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

FINANCIAL STATEMENT

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr POYNTON:Treasurer · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

COUNTRY POSTAL FACILITIES

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WEBSTER:ALP

QUESTION

TWOPENNY POSTAGE

Mr FENTON:

Mr WEBSTER:ALP

QUESTION

DESTRUCTION OF SOLDIERS’ MAILS

Mr TUDOR:for Dr. Maloney

Mr LAIRD SMITH:DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

FEMALE DISPENSERS

Mr MASSY-GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

PRICE OF COLONIAL WINES

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr ARCHIBALD:Minister for Trade and Customs · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

SOLDIERS’ WIVES : ALLOWANCES

Mr WATKINS:for Mr. West

Mr JENSEN:ALP

QUESTION

GALLIPOLI HEROES: PUNISHMENTS

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

OFFICERS’ SCHOOLS OF INSTRUCTION

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:

Mr LAIRD SMITH:DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

AMMUNITION AND RIFLES: OUTPUT

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

FINNISH ASSOCIATION

House of Representatives
7 December 1916

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr SPENCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BAMFORD:
Minister for Home and Territories · HERBERT, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr BURNS:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr POYNTON:
Treasurer · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WEBSTER:
ALP

Mr WEBSTER:
ALP

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr ARCHIBALD:
Minister for Trade and Customs · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr WATKINS:
for Mr. West

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr POYNTON:
ALP

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr HANNAN:
Fawkner

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta