House of Representatives
27 September 1916

6th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker book the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 8989

PETITION

Mr. FENTON presented a petition, signed by 595 persons known as Plymouth Brethren, praying that they may be exempted from the bearing of arms, and be allotted duties of national importance. Petition received and read.

page 8989

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH RAILWAYS

Mr ARCHIBALD:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– When does the Minister for Home Affairs intend to lay on the table, and move for the printing of, the report of the Engineer-in-Chief on the railways of the Commonwealth?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– Probably to-day.

page 8989

QUESTION

MILITARY SERVICE REFERENDUM

Mr GROOM:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– Is the Minister for Home Affairs in a position to state what is being done to permit of the voting at the proposed referendum of returned soldiers who have reached the age of twenty-one years since they crossed the seas?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The honorable member informed me of his intention to ask the question, and I have been furnished with the following information in reply to it: -

Provision is being made by regulation under the Military Service Referendum Act to enable returned members ofthe Forces over the age of twenty-one years, who, from anycause, have boon unable to secure enrolment, to vote on the 28th October at the polling booths on making a declaration. These votes will be dealt with at the scrutiny by the Commonwealth Electoral Officer for the State.

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister’s reply apply also to soldiers on active service who have become twenty-one, and to those who have enlisted but are not enrolled?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– It will apply to all soldiers, whether they be here or across the seas.

page 8989

QUESTION

CENSORSHIP

Mr YATES:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I call the attention of the Prime Minister to the following letter, which was published in Adelaide in the Register, the Advertiser, and the Herald, while he was there, and I ask him if he will allow language similar to that used by the writer to be employed in any anticonscription publication that may be issued: -

Well, they are a white-livered crowd, and if they kick up any fuss I am finished with them. Just fancy, as the majority of unionists are away with the Force, and unable to have a voice in the matter, the white-livered skunks who are hangingback are making out that they are the union, whereas all good unionists have enlisted, or should do so.

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– What has been read purports to be an extract from a letter written by a South Australian soldier in Prance, wherein reference is made to the colour of the livers of certain gentlemen, and I am asked whether similar references may be made by persons who are opposed to compulsory military service. My reply is “ Certainly.” Reference to the colour of no man’s liver is barred. I have yet to learn, however, that those who are attacked have any right to complain. There is no epithet so mean and contemptible that they have not thought fit to apply to me. A member sitting in this chamber, and on this side of it, stated the other night that I had been bribed.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr HUGHES:

– It comes with ill grace from those who use such language-

Mr SPEAKER:

– The Prime Minister must know that ho cannot now make a spoech.

Mr HUGHES:

– Then the answer to the question is, “ Yes.”

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I desire to make a personal explanation in regard to the remarks which have fallen from the lips of the Prime Minister. The right honorable gentleman must know that the report referred to was an abbreviated one, only a few inches in length. I wish the Prime Minister to know that I never made any statement that could be taken to mean that he had been bribed with money. If he could get thereporter’s notes, he would find that there was not one single word uttered I need withdraw, or would withdraw. As to bribing the right honorable gentleman with money, I never made such a statement.

page 8990

QUESTION

APPEAL TO GERMANS

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Prime Minister whether the prohibition against the publication of matter in German extends to the reproduction of such an appeal as I hold in my hand, made in German for German support, by one Herr W. P. Finlayson.

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I recognise and appreciate the effort of the artist who has adorned this production, but the meaning of the letterpress is to me as that of a sealed book. I have the word of the honorable member for Wentworth for believing that the language employed is German, and therefore I shall have it trans lated, and read the translation to the House to-morrow.

page 8990

QUESTION

PRICEOF MINING EXPLOSIVES

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

-Is the Prime Minister aware that it is alleged that a combination regulates the supply and price of mining explosives, and that, in consequence, prices have materially increased during recent years? In view of this, will he consider the advisability of having inquiry made in regard to the supply, distribution, and cost of mining explosives?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– Does the honorable gentleman say, in effect, that there is a combination which places an unfair and almost prohibitive price on these explosives ?

Mr Charlton:

– Yes.

Mr HUGHES:

– If the honorable gentleman can make out a prima facie case I shall have it investigated, and, without delay, will appoint a Committee to inquire into it, with a view of fixing such a price as is fair and equitable in all the circumstances.

page 8990

QUESTION

LIVERPOOLRIOTS

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister for the Navy confer with the Minister for Defence with a view to seeing whether a number of those soldiers who were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment in connexion with what are known as the Liverpool riots, may be liberated and permitted to serve at the front, in view of the fact that many of them were really offenders as a result of indulgence in intoxicants?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

-I shall bring the request before the Minister for Defence, and let the House know.

page 8990

QUESTION

DISTURBANCES AT PUBLIC MEETINGS

Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · CP

– A meeting was being held in the TheatreRoyal, Townsville, Queensland, on the 21st September, in connexion with the referendum campaign, when the proceedings were interrupted by a noisy section, who held up the meeting and “ counted out “ the speakers. Choruses were sung, and several persons in the body of the hall mounted the platform and harangued the crowd. Will the Prime Minister make a statement as to what provision there is in the Electoral Act for the punishment of those who disturb public referendum meetings, and prevent freedom of speech ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I gather that this is one of these gentle encouragements to free speech that are now becoming quite prevalent. A remedy is found in a section of the Electoral Act which provides that any person so offending may be ejected by the chairman, and is liable to a penalty of £5. That remedy, I apprehend, is at the disposal of the chairman of every meeting in every place throughout Australia. I hope that we shall have this campaign conducted in a manner that will not be a reproach to reasonable men. Let us approach it in a fitting spirit. This is the most vital question that has ever been submitted to a Democracy enjoying the privileges of free citizenship. The answer to the question is that tile remedy for such conduct is found in section 49 of the Electoral Act, and is available to every chairman.

page 8991

KATHERINE ‘ RIVER TO BITTER SPRINGS RAILWAY.

Report of the Public Works Committee in regard to the extension of the railway from Katherine River to Bitter Springs presented by Mr. Riley, and ordered to be printed.

page 8991

PRINTING COMMITTEE’S REPORT

Report (No. 6) presented by Mr.

Mowilliams, and adopted.

page 8991

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT DOCKYARDS

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

– Can the Minister for the Navy give any information as to how far the negotiations have progressed with the Minister for Public Works for the State of Victoria for the leasing of the dockyards and the Alfred Graving Dock, at Williamstown?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– No definite negotiations have yet been concluded. I have referred the matter to the Naval Board for inquiry and decision, and if the decision of the Board is favorable, I shall submit the matter to the Cabinet.

page 8991

QUESTION

PRICE OF BUTTER

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the prices of butter as fixed by Commonwealth regulation do not allow for the extra cost of pat butter or distribution by carts, he will have the regulation amended to meet such cases?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– This is a matter with which, of course, I am not familiar, but I shall have it looked into, and see what can be done to meet the request of the honorable member.

page 8991

QUESTION

MILITARY SERVICE REFERENDUM

Poll Clerks - Statements by Members - Majority.

Mr SHARPE:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Minister for the Navy take into consideration the fact that many young men in the Public Service of the Commonwealth, who are likely to be called on for military training during the next mouth, have been in the habit of acting as poll clerks at elections, and grant them permission to so act at the approaching referendum ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I shall bring the matter under the notice of the Minister for Defence, and I should say he would view such a proposition favorably.

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Has the attention of the Prime Minister been directed to statements alleged to have been made by two honorable members of this House, wherein they declared that, during the referendum campaign, they intended to divulge information which was given to honorable members at the joint meeting of the two Houses, and which was regarded as secret and confidential; and, if so, whether he intends to take any steps in reference to the matter ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I have not seen the report to which the honorable member alludes. 1 can hardly believe that any man would say outside this building what was told him under circumstances which not merely honour but regard for the safety of his country should have sealed his lips. There were many things said at that meeting - some relatively unimportant, but others vital to the welfare and safety of the country - and if any man should divulge them I shall take whatever steps may be necessary to safeguard the interests of the country.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Will the Prime Minister say whether the forthcoming referendum on the question of compulsory military service overseas will be decided by the massed vote of the Commonwealth or by a majority of the States ?

Mr HUGHES:

– The referendum will be decided by a majority of the people of the Commonwealth.

page 8992

QUESTION

SUGAR INDUSTRY

Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Treasurer, say whether it is the intention of the Treasurer to make a statement to the House in connexion with the sugar industry and the very serious crisis through which it is passing ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– During the course of his financial statement, the Treasurer will deal with the sugar industry.

page 8992

QUESTION

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Enlistment of Youths: Medical Examination

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

– I understand that the policy of the Defence Department is not toenlist youths under twenty-one years of age without their parents’ consent, but I have been informed that one boy has been accepted notwithstanding that the consent of his parents has been withheld. Can the Prime Minister tell me whether it is now the policy of the Defence Department to enlist such youths who are willing to serve, though their parents’ consent may be withheld?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I certainly understood that the policy of the Defence Department was as the honorable member stated, but I must ascertain from the Minister for Defence what the facts are.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I ask the Minister for the Navy whether he is aware that Private William Hartigan, C. Company, 16th Reinforcements, 21st Battalion, Royal Park, is being sent to the front although his parents have submitted to the Defence Department a doctor’s certificate as to his unfitness, and also their personal experience in rearing him to manhood, and that the above evidence was submitted before and after he was called into camp? After being seised of these facts, does not the Minister consider it is a waste of money to send him on active service ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– Private W. Hartigan, 16th Reinforcements, 21st Battalion, Australian Imperial Force, was medically boarded on 26th September, 1916, and the Board recommended his return to duty at once, and stated that he was fit for military service.

page 8992

QUESTION

MORATORIUM

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Will the Prime Minister say whether it is the intention of the Government to proclaim a moratorium or introduce a Bill for the purpose?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I have already explained that a moratorium is now in force.

page 8992

QUESTION

MAIL CONTRACTS

Mr YATES:

– In the contracts now being called for the collectionand delivery of mail matter in Adelaide, will the Postmaster-General insert a condition providing for man labour and the payment of union rates of wages to the drivers ?

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have not the terms of the contract before me, but I shall look into the matter and inform the honorable memberlater.

page 8992

QUESTION

ARSENAL

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– It is announced in the press this morning that the Government intend to proceed with the construction of the arsenal at Canberra, and that the present manager of the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow is to be one of the principal advisers of the Government in connexion with that work. In view of the sensational developments at Lithgow, since an inspector has been sent there to examine the rifle produced, I ask the Minister for the Navy whether further expenditure upon the arsenal will be suspended untilthe Department is fully satisfied that the work undertaken at Lithgow is being carried out properly ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I cannot give the honorable member any promise, but I shall bring his question under the notice of the Minister for Defence and furnish a reply to the House.

page 8992

QUESTION

WHEAT POOL

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Before the details of the arrangements for handling the coming wheat harvest are concluded, will the Prime Minister give an opportunity for the holding of a conference of the interests concerned, including the growers ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– Certainly.

page 8993

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Repairs of Bicycles and Motors : South Brisbane Post-office.

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– Will the PostmasterGeneral inform the House when it is the intention of the Department to attend to the manufacture and repairs of its own bicycles and the repair of motors, &c. ?

Mr WEBSTER:
ALP

– About two months ago, acting on reports called for by me, I gave instructions that the Department should commence to make its own bicycles, and also do all repairs in connexion with bicycles and the large and growing motor service. That work is in progress. A staff has been appointed and allocated, and the arrangements are being hurried on. It is hoped by this innovation that the Commonwealth will save about £3,000 per year.

Mr SHARPE:

– Having regard to the shortage of work in the building trade amongst men over the military age, when will the Postmaster-General be prepared to proceed with the erection of the South Brisbane post-office?

Mr WEBSTER:

– All new buildings or extensions of existing buildings in connexion with the Postal Department will be proceeded with according to the requirements of the Department. If they are necessary at once, they will be proceeded with; if they can be deferred without injury to the service, they must wait until the war is over.

page 8993

QUESTION

CORDAGE CONTRACT

Mr MATHEWS:

– Will the Minister representing the Minister for the Navy lay on the table of the Library all papers in connexion with the cordage contract entered into by the Defence Department with Geo. Kinnear and Sans, of Footscray ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I will place the papers on the table to-day.

page 8993

QUESTION

ADDITIONS TO THE VICTORIA BARRACKS

Mr GREGORY:

– At what age will the masons employed on the stone additions to the Victoria Barracks, St. Kildaroad, be entitled to a pension?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– I will have an inquiry made, and let the honorable member know.

page 8993

QUESTION

COMPULSORY SERVICE REFERENDUM

Mr BRENNAN:

– Has the Prime Minister decided to issue a pamphlet setting forth the reasons pro and con in connexion with the forthcoming referendum ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I hardly see any necessity for issuing a pamphlet. There are two reasons why that course cannot he taken. One reason is that supplied by the electoral officer, who, when approached by me on the matter, said it would be quite impossible for the pamphlet to be printed and reach the electors in time. Six weeks from the date the arguments are received is the minimum time required to get distributed a pamphlet to the electors of the Commonwealth. Another reason is that only one side has any arguments, and that side is not the one on which the honorable member stands.

page 8993

QUESTION

MALTESE IMMIGRANTS

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

– Can the Minister for External Affairs give the House any information regarding the ninety-eight Maltese immigrants who came to Australia by the Arabia, and particularly as to whether they have been brought out under contract?

Mr MAHON:
Minister for External Affairs · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Certain information has already appeared in the press, which no doubt the honorable member has seen. At present, we have no evidence that these men have been brought out under contract, nor have we been able to ascertain where they are likely to be employed. All we have discovered so far is that twenty-three of themhave remained in Melbourne, although booked through to Sydney. If the honorable member will repeat the question in a few days all the information then available will be furnished.

page 8993

MILITARY SERVICE REFERENDUM BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 8993

LAND TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

(No. 2).

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from His Excellency the GovernorGeneral,recommending an appropriation for the purposes of this Bill.

page 8994

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that Mr. Denison Miller receives nearly £80 per week salary, and, in addition, £22 ls. per week when absent from Sydney ?
  2. Hashe the power, in spite of the Treasurer, the Government, and the Parliament of the Commonwealth, to insist that all his bank clerks must return and do night work without any pay, or even tea money?
  3. In view of the large amount of unemployment amongst clerical workers, will the Minister do his best to prevent this system of sweating?
Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The Governor of the Commonwealth Bank receives £4,000 a year salary, and £3 3s. a day travelling allowance. Salaries of general managers of privately-owned banking companies range from £3,000 to’ £4,500, and in the leading banks pensions are paid on retirement.
  2. The Governor of the Commonwealth Bank has complete control over the administration of the Bank’s affairs.
  3. The Minister has no power to interfere in the matter of wages and conditions of employment in the Bank. I am given to understand by the Governor of the Bank that said wages and conditions of employment are more favorable than those obtaining in private banks.

page 8994

QUESTION

REINFORCEMENTS

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether he has noted the following extract from an article on “ The Referendum “ appearing in the Melbourne Herald on 5th September: - “ We know that the failure to send reinforcements promptly to Gallipoli involved hundreds of . . . deaths, and it is difficult to think without rancour of the men who have tried, or are trying, to make this thing happen again”?
  2. Is the first part of this statement true, and, if so, who was responsible for the failure to send reinforcements?
  3. Will the Prime Minister take such action as the gravity of the charge demands against any Australian officers who were responsible?
  4. Is the Prime Minister aware as to the truth or otherwise of the statement that there are “ men who have tried, or are trying, to make this thing happen again?”
Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The answers to the questions are as follow. -

  1. I have not seen the article referred to, nor do I know to what it alludes, but I do believe that the failure to send reinforcements may probably have involved disaster. I do not know that the statement necessarily in volves reinforcements from the Commonwealth; it means reinforcements from any part of the Empire.
  2. Answered by No. 1.
  3. I noticed the gravity of the charge; no action is necessary in regard to it.
  4. I do not know whether any men “ have tried, or are trying, to make this thing happen again.”

page 8994

QUESTION

MEN OF MILITARY AGE

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Will he, on behalf of the Minister for Defence, inform the House as to -

The number of men in the Commonwealth between the proposed conscript ages of 21 to 45?

The total number enlisted in Australia and its territories?

The total number of men who volun teered but were rejected on medical grounds ?

The number of men required to be retained for military purposes and other services in Australia should the policy of conscription be indorsed by the people?

The number of men in the Commonwealth over the age of 45 years?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. 700,000.
  2. Number enlisted up to 20th September, 1916, 318,607.
  3. 116,271.
  4. No estimate can be given,
  5. 500,000.

In the case of (c), it is to be understood that this number includes a large percentage of men who have presented themselves at various dep&ts for enlistment on more than one occasion.

page 8994

QUESTION

ENROLMENT

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice -

Will he inform the House as to thenumber of electors on the roll for each of the seventy-five electoral divisions of the Commonwealth as compared with the numbers on the roll for each division at the general election on 5th September, 1914?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– It is not practicable, at this juncture, to furnish an approximately correct return of the number of persons on the rolls, owing to the very numerous adjustments now being made by the officers. A return will be laid upon the table of the House as soon as the required information is available.

page 8995

QUESTION

EXPORT OF METALS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the AttorneyGeneral, upon notice -

In view of the advertisement in the Australian Statesman and Mining Standard of 14th September of Dalgety and Company Limited -

Is it a fact that they have the sole control of the export of molybdenite, wolfram, or scheelite?

Will the Minister state the commission and charge made against the miners and mining companies for molybdenite, wolfram, and scheelite ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. No. The Commonwealth Government have the sole control of the export of these minerals; Messrs. Dalgety and Company, as stated in the advertisement, are the agents of the Commonwealth Government for that purpose.
  2. It is proposed shortly to lay a full statement on this subject before Parliament.

page 8995

QUESTION

RENTS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Prime Minister, vpon notice -

Whether he will issue a regulation, or take other legal proceedings, to prevent any increase of rents during the war?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– This matter is now being considered.

page 8995

QUESTION

CAPTAIN OLIFENT

Mr YATES:

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Was Captain Olifcnt offered a position on active service, other than that of Censor, after war had broken out in . 1914?
  2. If so, what position?
  3. Was the offer refused; if so, what was tho reason given?
Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– Inquiries are being made, and when I have the information I shall lay it on the table.

page 8995

QUESTION

WHEAT BOARD

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Wheat Board has decided to prohibit the use of second-hand bags for the ensuing season’s wheat?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– Yes.

page 8995

QUESTION

ADELAIDE CENSORS’ STAFF

Mr YATES:

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. How many civil servants are still retained on the Censor’s staff in Adelaide?
  2. What are the names and the amounts received to date by each?
  3. How many returned soldiers, either as censors or on the staff, have been employed?
  4. Have any increases in salary been made to the staff; if so, to whom, and how much?
  5. Is any temporary appointment made during the time Major Smeaton is engaged in parliamentary duties and as chairman of aRoyal Commission ?
  6. Has any consideration been given to the request made by the member for Adelaide, through Major Smeaton, for an increase in salary to two juniors; if so, what is the decision?
Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Two Assistant Censors - one on full time, and one as emergency, employed occasionally.
  2. Colonel Dyke- 1914, £102 3s. 4d.; 1915, £147 5s. 10d.; 1916, £250 13s. 5d- total, £500 2s. 7d. Captain Vaughan- 1914, £81 4s.1d.; 1915, £1390s. 6d.; 1916, £51 14s.6d.- total, £271 19s.1d.
  3. None.
  4. No.
  5. No.
  6. Temporary messengers are paid under the following scale: - When appointed, 15s. per week; after one year’s service, 20s. per week; after two years’ service, 25s. per week. The increase in the cases referred to, therefore,act automatically, and no special increases were made to the messengers.

page 8995

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Bounties Act - Return of Particulars for 1915-1916 of Persons to whom Bounty Paid, Amount Paid, Goods, &c.

Defence Act - Regulations Amended -

Military- Statutory Rules 1916, No. 225.

Military Forces - Statutory Rules 1916, No. 224.

Ireland, Rebellion in - Royal Commission - Minutes of Evidence and Appendix of Documents.

Lands Acquisition Act -

Land acquired under, at -

Bulimba, near Brisbane, Queensland -

For Defence purposes.

Cairns, Queensland - For Defence purposes.

Congwarra, Federal Territory - For Federal Capital purposes.

Northern Territory - Crown Lands Ordinance - Timber Regulations.

War, The - (Papers presented to the British Parliament) -

Parcels and Letter Mails- Note addressed to the United States Ambassador regarding the Examination of.

War Precautions Act- Regulations Amended, &c- (Provisional)- Statu tory Rules 1916, Nos. 97, 112, 122, 128. 129.

Statutory Rules 1916, Nos. 135. 137, 161. 163, 169, 189, 215, 216, 217, 219, 226.

page 8996

SOLICITOR-GENERAL BILL

Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act relating to the Solicitor-General.

Bill presented by Mr. Hughes, and read a first and second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 (Short title).

Mr HUGHES:
Prime Minister and Attorney-General · West Sydney · ALP

. - The Bill has been introduced to lighten the formal work of the Attorney-General by enabling the Solicitor-General to do certain things that now only the Minister at the head of the Department can do. It permits the Secretary to the Department of the Attorney-General to sign, as Solicitor-General, a number of documents which can now be signed only by the AttorneyGeneral. In the States such work is done by the Solicitor-General, and not by the Attorney-General. The SolicitorGeneral will have no authority to sign anything, or to do anything, unless it has been specially delegated to him by the Attorney-General. He cannot delegate such authority to any one else. The mere formal work of the AttorneyGeneral is too heavy, and there is no reason for burdening a Minister with it. Every one who has held this office knows the position of affairs, and knows, too, that the work of the Department is increasing. The Department has at present to deal with a number of matters - the regulation of the trade in metals, wheat, and many other commodities - which in normal times do not come within its sphere. The Minister will declare the policy of the Government in every case, and the Solicitor-General will give effect to it. Thus Ministerial discretion will remain, and Ministerial responsibility will not be lessened. The Government will be as much responsible for every act done by the Solicitor-General as if it had been done by the AttorneyGeneral, but important business will not be delayed because the Attorney-General cannot be got to sign his name to some formal paper.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– We are in the anomalous position of having to discuss a Bill of which we have not a copy, and about which we know only what has been told to us in the explanation of the Attorney-General. The right honorable gentleman says that he proposes to give to our Solicitor-General powers that are exercised by the SolicitorsGeneral of the States ; but my recollection is that the Solicitors-General of the States are Cabinet Ministers.

Mr Hughes:

– In New South Wales, until recently, and in Tasmania, Western Australia, and New Zealand, the SolicitorGeneral is an official, and not a member of Parliament.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not object to what is proposed; but the AttorneyGeneral might have given us a sketch of. the duties which are to devolve on the Solicitor-General. This is a time of war, and the delegation of war powers to an official is not a light matter.

Mr Hughes:

– I shall still be responsible.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes, nominally.

Mr Hughes:

– Actually.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am afraid that it may be thought sufficient to explain to the House, should anything be done which ought not to have been done, that it had been done by the SolicitorGeneral, and that the Attorney-General knew nothing of it.

Mr Hughes:

– That explanation is always open to any Minister. At present the permanent head of the Crown Law Department himself settles half the matters that come before it. I am willing to limit the operation of the Bill to the period of the war.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is what I should prefer. I think that, more often than not, in New South Wales the Solicitor-General is a member of the Cabinet. Mr. David Hall, when he left this Parliament, was taken into the New South Wales Government as Solicitor-General. Whether that is the case generally in the rest of the States I do not know.

Mr Watt:

– In most of the States the Solicitor-General is a political Minister.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It is no light thing, it seems to me, to delegate important judicial functions to an official who has no direct responsibility to this Parliament. While, of course, a SolicitorGeneral will have to be appointed at some time or other in connexion with the political functions of this House and Parliament, I do think that, unless the Prime Minister sees some urgency, it is a matter that might well be left over until we can consider it away from the intrusion of the war, and all the troubles arising therefrom.

Mr Mathews:

– We require more expedition in the business in that Department, and if this Bill will help it is a good thing.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Anything that will help to promote expedition in any of the Departments is doubtless a good thing, but in a Law Department it is not so much expedition as the doing of the right thing that is necessary. However, we are in the dark; we know nothing about the Bill, or what is contemplated, beyond the assurance of the Prime Minister and Attorney-General that he proposes to allocate no duties of an important character to the Solicitor-General, but to leave to him only those details which may safely be left in connexion with the various matters mentioned.

Mr Hughes:

– I do not think that you ought to desire, or have, any more light on the matter. What I say is that the work of the Department is such that it is impossible for me to do it and also to attend to the business of the Prime Minister’s Department. I therefore require somebody to do those formal things which do not require, and should not require, the attention of the Minister.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The right honable gentleman is now putting the matter on a personal ground.

Mr Hughes:

– Not at all.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– He tells us now that he is unable to perform the work of his two offices as it ought to be performed. But, surely, the remedy for that is to altogether divest himself of one of the offices. As to the Prime Ministership, I apprehend that he is not likely to relinquish that. I do not know what law members the Prime Minister has in his party.

Mr Mathews:

– The member for Batman! “ Mr. JOSEPH COOK.- Oh, yes; there are lots of possibilities; and relief may come in many ways. I certainly agree with the right honorable gentleman that, if he has to perform the functions of Prime Minister of Australia as I think they ought to be performed, he ought not to hold any other office.

Mr Hughes:

– I quite agree with that, of course.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is my judgment, after having filled the office myself. I know that the Prime Minister has quite enough to do in looking after the rest of the Departments in, shall I say, a supervisory way, as a kind of referee, without having to administer a difficult and delicate Department himself. I suggest that, instead of delegating duties as proposed, the Prime Minister should, if possible, relieve himself of one of these great Departments. This would be better than delegating the duties to a nonpolitical official. Is the Prime Minister acting as Minister of Trade and Customs also?

Mr Hughes:

– Well, I do not know. 1 am considering my qualifications for the post, but I have great hesitation in recommending to His Excellency tho GovernorGeneral a person so unfit for the post as myself. Possibly a night’s sleep may give me enough courage to do so !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Since we have not the Bill, it seems to me that all we can do at the present time is to trust the Prime Minister. I hope we are doing right; but, personally, I do not very much appreciate the proposal to delegate important functions, especially in these war days, to any person, no matter how qualified or eminent he may be, who has not some direct responsibilities to this House.

Mr Hughes:

– I am not going to press the matter further. If the Committee does not like to adopt the measure, I shall withdraw it. I have put it forward, but if there is going to be any talk about it, I shall withdraw it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– This is a Parliament, I hope, and it is not for the right honorable gentleman to say what he is going to do with the measure. Once a measure is before the House it belongs to the House.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does anything matter just now?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Apparently not, according to “the dictum of the Prime

Minister. I shall not oppose the Bill, but we might at least have had copies of it before us, so that it could receive the consideration its importance undoubtedly deserves.

Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs

.- A great deal can be said in favour of the Attorney-General’s request for the delegation he is asking. Section 64 of the Constitution provides -

The Governor-General may appoint officers to administer such Departments of State of the Commonwealth as the Governor-General in Council may establish.

Such officers shall hold office during the pleasure of the Governor-General. They shall he members of the Federal Executive Council, and shall be the Queen’s Ministers of State for the Commonwealth.

The section further provides for a Minister of State being a member of either House of the Parliament. That refers to responsible Ministers who are in this House, and there must be some Minister of State who has charge of the Law Department of the Commonwealth. The Attorney-General is the executive councillor responsible for the administration of his Department, and any attempt by any Bil! to delegate to the SolicitorGeneral political responsibilities in connexion with the Department would be impossible. The Attorney-General has assured us, however, that he is not asking for the delegation of any of his political responsibilities. The Bill is to permit the delegation of statutory duties only. What he is asking, I take it, is simply the delegation of ordinary administrative duties, such as the filing of bills in prosecutions, matters connected with patents and trade marks, and other ordinary duties. There is no intention, I assume, to take away from this House its control over any responsible Minister.

Mr Hughes:

– Certainly not, most emphatically not.

Mr GROOM:

– I ask the AttorneyGeneral to give an assurance that, so far as the administration of the War Precautions Act is concerned, he is keeping the control, generally speaking, to himself.

Mr Hughes:

– That is so.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 3, and title, agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Standing Orders suspended.

Motion (by Mr. Hughes) proposed -

That this Bill be now read a third time.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– I cannot understand why Mr. Garran should be appointed Solicitor-General. What is the difference between Mr. Garran as SolicitorGeneral and Mr. Garran as Secretary of the Attorney-General’s Department?

Mr Hughes:

Mr. Garran at present exercises only such functions as fall to the Secretary to the Department; and as Solicitor-General he can exercise further functions only to the extent that they are delegated to him by me.

Mr PAGE:

– Could not the AttorneyGeneral delegate those functions without making Mr. Garran Solicitor-General ?.

Mr Hughes:

– Not as the law is.

Mr PAGE:

– I would like to see the appointment of one of the Cabinet Ministers.

Mr Hughes:

– That is what I pray for every night, but I cannot get it done.

Mr PAGE:

– I am sure there is a member of the Cabinet who ought to be equal to the position. I have noticed that ever since an intimation was given that the appointment of a Solicitor-General was contemplated that honorable gentleman has cultivated his hair in such a way as to remove any necessity for wearing a wig.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

Sitting suspended from4.5to4.30p.m.

page 8998

SUPPLY (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL (No. 2) 1916-17

Financial Statement.

In Committee of Supply:

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

.- I move-

That there be granted to His Majesty to the service of the year 1916-17 for the purposes of Additions, New Works, Buildings, &c, a sum not exceeding £918,000.

This is a motion preliminary to the introduction of a Bill to provide supply for new works and buildings, but before proceeding with that measure, I propose to make an interim financial statement.

I propose to make a statement showing the actual receipts and expenditure for the financial year ended 30th June, 1916, and the estimated receipts and expenditure for the financial year ended 30th June, 1917, as follows: - AIr. Higgs I beg to submit the motion. {: #debate-37-s1 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan -- I do not intend to enter into a discussion of or to criticise the statement which the Treasurer has laid before us. I have listened to the honorable gentleman with attention, but, of course, I am not at the present moment in a position to deal with the facts and figures submitted. I rose with the object of making some special observations on a subject which I consider of importance. I have to leave for Western Australia to-morrow, and therefore I take this the only opportunity of saying the few words I wish to say*. What I desire to say should, I think, be said at the earliest possible moment after the debate that has already taken place on the means necessary to be taken to finance the present war. I wish specially to deal with what I consider very unfounded statements - statements which might be characterized by a much stronger term, and which, in any case, may be described as venemous - that have been made by several honorable members and by Labour unionists all over Australia, to the effect that those who are reputed to be fairly well off have not contributed as they should to the expense of the war; in fact, that those people have failed in their duty during this crisis. I feel it to be my duty, in the interest of truth and justice, to refute that statement, and to prove that those disparaging assertions, made not only in this House, but throughout Australia, are without foundation, and that those who make them must be either ignorant of what has been going on, or have some ulterior and improper motive in making them. I am of opinion - and I think that the statement of the Treasurer, when investigated, will bear me out - that by careful and wise administration this Commonwealth can do its duty to the Empire, and maintain its solvency in this great crisis without any anarchical, revolutionary, or devious methods of finance. I am glad to think - though I have not had an opportunity of sufficiently looking into the matter - that the Government have thrown aside, and treated with contempt, the anarchical, revolutionary, and devious methods proposed. All that is necessary at the present time to enable us to do our duty to ourselves and the Empire is that we should be devoted to duty, determined, and strong of purpose, and see to it that there is capable and careful administration. Assuming those conditions, I see no difficulty that we cannot overcome in carrying the war to a successful termination. I was very much pained the other day at the remarks which the honorable member for Hunter thought fit to address to the House. After several years' knowledge of that gentleman, I had come to the conclusion that he was level-headed, careful, and fair-minded; and, therefore, I was the more pained - in fact, shocked - to hear the opinions he then expressed. His suggestions were pure and unadulterated confiscation, and it is time that his spurious ideas should be repudiated and refuted. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- You do not call him anarchical, do you? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- I should say his proposals are quite anarchical. The honorable member said, and I shall only quote a few words in order to show to what I am referring - I am of opinion that, at a time like this, all. income in excess of necessary living expenditure should go into the public exchequer for financing the war. Every man and woman should have sufficient to keep the wolf from the door, but over and above what is necessary to provide each household with the necessaries of life all private income should be paid to the Government during the progress of the war. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Hear, hear ! {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- The honorable member assents, though I thought that, perhaps, he would say his remarks were made offhand, and without due consideration. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- That is the only way in which we can prevent the burden being placed on the poorer people. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- I shall come to that spurious cry in a moment, for it is a spurious cry, and the honorable member must know it. How would such an anarchical proposal meet the case ? No one knows better than the honorable member that the industrial wage earners cannot spare much, if anything, from their weekly wage. What, then, is he driving at? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- I am driving at those who have over a living wage. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Then why *vo*.* say so? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- I did say so. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- The honorable member seems to think that no one but himself and his colleagues have any sympathy for the people with small means whom they assume to specially represent in this House, but whom they do not represent. The honorable member, as I say, knows very well that the industrial workers living on their weekly wage cannot spare much, if anything. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Hear, hear! {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Again I ask why the honorable member did not say so? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- I have said so. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Then what the honorable member means is that those who have hitherto been paying, and who ;are paying now, shall continue to provide all that is necessary? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- What I said was that I wished to conscript wealth. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- What the honorable member meant, and what he should have said, was that those who are paying now will have to continue to pay until the end, and to pay a great deal more than they already have. I cannot understand what is the cause of the honorable member's anxiety in this matter, unless it is that some of his friends, or those whom he represents, or in whom he is interested, are paying too much. Does he realize what he is proposing ? Does he mean that the bond-holders of the States and of the Commonwealth and all public contractors should not be paid, that all civil servants of every grade are to be paid a uniform minimum wage of, say, £3 per week, and that employers should dispense with all their employees, domestic or industrial? If all employees are to be dispensed with in that way, how are they to be kept? I suppose that the honorable member would set up a large soup kitchen for the purpose of supplying their daily needs. I am sorry that the honorable member has fastened himself to such a scheme. It is a scheme based on confiscation and repudiation, and would bring ruin to our credit. In fact, it is so foolish that it is not worth even considering.- Furthermore, there is not the slightest necessity for such heroic and anarchical methods. It is difficult to understand how the honorable member came to give us the benefit of his ideas as to what should be done. He must know that the war expenditure is being financed by the very people whom he wishes to completely ruin. His surprising question, " What sacrifice is wealth going to make to meet the requirements of the nation?" might be very pertinent if it were not entirely opposed to facts. The plain answer to it is the fact that the war taxation already levied and being levied is financing the war. In the financial year 1915-16, the Commonwealth derived from war income tax £3,934,000, war probate duties £626,000, increased land tax for war purposes £200,000, and increased Customs and Excise duties levied for war purposes £2,000,000; or a total of £6,760,000. That sum is sufficient to pay interest at 5 per cent. on £135,000,000; whereas from such figures as I have been able to gather the war expenditure during the year 1915-16 was about £41,000,000, and the interest and sinking fund paid was £2,000,000. If the taxation that was specially voted for war revenue, namely, income tax and probate duties, which realized £4,560,000, was set aside for war purposes, the provision to the end of the year was very satisfactory. Ample provision has been thus far made to finance our war loans and war expenditure by the special taxation already authorized. If more money is required for the current financial year it must be obtained. The Treasurer has just placed before us a scheme by which he seeks to obtain all he will need for this year for the purpose of financing the war. In my opinion, the expenditure on ordinary services during a time of war should not be greater than what it was prior to the war. We already had a very large expenditure in 1913-14, and if we had determined not to spend more during the war than we spent on the ordinary services in that year we would have been acting as a prudent and wise people. In our private affairs, in time of difficulty, we would take care to limit our expenditure to an amount which would not be more than what it was before our difficulties arose. I am not sure that the Government have done this. If the Government allows the ordinary expenditure to increase during a period of war, difficulty, and danger, it will be monstrous and reckless procedure on their part. No words are strong enough to condemn such action . Surely during this terrible war we should not be called upon to spend more than we formerly spent on ordinary necessities. When the honorable member for Hunter, as also other honorable members opposite, complain of what others are doing, it is not an unfair retort to ask what those whom he thinks he specially represents are doing, and why he should attack those whom he does not pretend even to represent without telling us what those whom he does represent have done, or propose to do. Fortunately the masses of the people have not felt the burden of the war unduly; they have not paid anything directly towards the war expenditure. I ask the honorable member to refute that statement. Let him point out where the masses of the people have been unduly burdened, or where they have contributed anything material directly towards the war expenditure. Those who have borne the burden of the war expenditure are not very numerous, and they have not complained. Complaint comes from those who have paid nothing directly. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The masses are not complaining. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Certain persons who claim to represent the views of the masses in this House and outside it would have us believe that they are complaining. If a man complains, surely he should tell us how he is suffering. I ask honorable members to tell me how the masses of the people are suffering, and how much they are paying towards the war expenditure. Is it fair or generous to flog a willing horse? and ask, " What sacrifice is wealth going to make to meet the requirements of the nation?" when I have shown that those persons are paying special taxation to the extent of £4,560,000 on income tax and probate duties which were imposed for the purposes of the war. Are we living in a country where fairness prevails? When one does well or tries to do well he is usually given some credit, but the persons who are bearing this heavy burden are given no credit for what they have done and are doing. On the other hand, they are asked, " What are you going to do?" I may tell honorable members what they intend to do. They intend to obey the law and to do their best in the direction of financing the large expenditure that is now proceeding. If the honorable member for Hunter had his way he would kill the goose that lays the golden egg. While I rejoice that the masses have not suffered during the war, I regret that during these years of difficulty and danger there has been so much industrial unrest. From the last publication issued by **Mr. Knibbs,** I find that during two years of war there have been 695 industrial disputes, and a loss of wages amounting to about £900,000. Those who choose to strike and thereby lose money cannot be in any great difficulty; otherwise they would not do it. I am glad that the insane ideas some honorable members have in regard to finance did not find favour with the Treasurer last year. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- Then why worry about them? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Because I wish to impress upon honorable members how unreasonable and ungenerous their sentiments are. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- The Treasurer is very uneasy while the right honorable gentleman applauds him. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- He is not of my side of politics, but I am generous enough to give him fair play. The Treasurer said, on the 9 th May, in dealing with these visionary proposals - >A compulsory non-interest-bearing loan, to be subscribed by those who possess wealth is advocated by some writers and speakers, who appear to be unacquainted with the market value of governmental and other securities. A forced loan, without interest, means confiscation. . . A forced Joan, without interest, would mean the confiscation of at least £45 out of every £100 so raised. > >This young and resourceful nation will be in desperate need if ever it finds it necessary to resort to compulsory loans, without interest, to pay for its share in the expenses of the war. A more just appreciation of the realities of life would show that the man who invests £500 in a Government loan . ... is just as much entitled to a return for his money as the man who prefers investing £500 in house property. > >An appreciation of these simple facts will prevent much confusion of thought and the spreading of foolish notions. That is a proper and reasonable statement. Every one will agree that in this new and undeveloped country the lighter the burdens that are placed on the people, by taxation or otherwise, the better. If you take money out of the pockets of those who have it, you lessen the power of those persons to use it for beneficial purposes. Thi more capital there is available foi production and the development of the primary and manufacturing industries the better for all, and especially for the industrial workers and the masses of the people, of whom honorable members opposite seem to regard themselves as the sole representatives. I should like to say, iii conclusion, that, in my opinion, the way to finance this war is to continue the plan that has so far been adopted - that is, to raise the money required by loan, and to provide by taxation sufficient to pay interest and sinking fund on our borrowings. I should say that 1 per cent, is a quite sufficient sinking fund for a country like this. No devious methods are either necessary or justifiable. I can only hope that we shall hear no more statements in this chamber that those who have, or are supposed to have, wealth are not contributing to the cost of this war. In my opinion, they are the only ones who are contributing directly to the cost of the war. Who has to pay the income tax of £4,000,000? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP; UAP from 1931 -- The working-class people. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- They are not paying it. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- It is being passed on to them. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- In my opinion they are not paying it. Do they pay the probate duty? I hope that in future a more generous spirit will be shown in regard to those who have to bear the bulk of war taxation, and that there will be no more questions asked as to when people are going to contribute towards the cost of the war. I am sorry to have had to make these remarks, but I regard the observations of the honorable member for Hunter as unworthy of him, and as long as he lives they will never redound to his credit. {: #debate-37-s2 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter .- It is very evident that the right honorable member for Swan addressed the Committee with the one object of replying to the remarks made by me in connexion with the Referendum Bill, for beyond the criticisms directed against my arguments, he shed very little light on the proposals which have emanated from the Treasurer. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I never intended to. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The right honorable gentleman also stated that he hoped that in future I will be a little more generous than I have been to the class of people whom he represents. Let me inform him that my proposals, if adopted, would not only be more generous to the poorer people, but, at a time like this, generous also to the persons for whom the right honorable gentleman claims to speak. In this, the greatest crisis in the history of the nation, when we are saying that every able-bodied man should be prepared to go to the front, and, if necessary, that he should be compelled to go, it is fair, having regard to the great additional cost to be incurred, that all people should realize that they have a burden to shoulder. We have no right to take up the attitude that, whilst one man should risk his life - than which nothing is more sacred - the right honorable member and I should remain at home and not pay all we possibly can towards the national cost of prosecuting the war to a finish. At a time like this, when the utmost effort is expected to be put forth by everybody, nothing is fairer than that those who & ave money should do their part by paying into the national exchequer as much as they possibly can spare for the purpose of financing our part in the war. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- My argument is that they have been doing that. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Is not my attitude a fair one? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I do not understand it. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The right honorable gentleman will understand nothing that does not suit him, and he has tried to read into my utterances something which was never in my mind. The right honorable gentleman contends that the people who have wealth are paying the cost of this war, but will he seriously assert that the income tax is not in many instances transferred by the richer class to the poorer people? Will he contend that house rents have not been raised to a considerable extent, so that in many cases the property-owner is receiving more in additional rent than he is paying in income tax? If that is Happening who really pays the income tax ? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The tenants. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- And the tenants are the working class, and very often soldiers' wives. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I was referring to direct taxation. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Let the right honorable gentleman ask the mothers of the Commonwealth if the cost of living has increased during the war, and 99 out of the 100 will tell him that living is much dearer to-day than it was two years ago. Shipping freights have swollen to an enormous extent, and the biggest dividends ever declared by shipping companies have been declared since the outbreak of war. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- You are talking nonsense. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I am stating absolute facts. The right honorable member for Swan would have us believe that the masses of the people are not paying this additional taxation. I answer him, in connexion with this latest endeavour on the part of the Government- to meet the financial situation, that unless the Government are very careful and introduce machinery to prevent traders from increasing their prices, the new taxation will be passed on to the shoulders of the people. I hope the Government will take steps to see that prices are not increased in that way, and then the right honorable gentleman may be able to claim that his friends are paying the taxation. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- What about the proposal you made last week? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- My proposal was that all income, over and above an amount that could be termed sufficient for a. fair living for each individual should be paid into the Treasury for the purpose of financing the war. Without having the assistance of the Treasury officials, I informed honorable members on that occasion that the war expenditure during 1916-17 would probably run to over £74,000.000, and I find that the Treasurer now submits an official estimate of £73,670,616. The cost of the war is increasing by leaps and bounds every year, and how are we to meet it if we do not get the money from some source? In 1913-14 the expenditure of the Commonwealth was £25,412,231; in 1914-15, £40,269.702; in 1915-16, £91,052,632; and for the year 1916-17, £127,836,291. If the war continues for any length of time our expenditure will be still greater. We have to face the position. What I propose, and what I would 1 carry into effect if I could, even though I might be considered an anarchist and a fool, is that the Government should take all income over and above £400 a year. There are households which could be kept comfortably on, perhaps, £200 a year; but when the breadwinner has to do a great deal of travelling, his personal expenses are possibly as great as would be sufficient to keep an ordinary family. Every case, however, would be met were an expenditure of £400 allowed. It is admitted that the country needs for the prosecution of the war the "last shilling," about which we have heard so much talk. That being so, it is surely not too much to ask every person to pay to the State all that he earns above £400 a year. {: .speaker-JWC} ##### Mr Carr: -- We do not need so much. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The expenditure of the Commonwealth is growing so rapidly that the Government will need all that it can get, and more. I have given serious consideration to this matter for some weeks past, and believe that I am discharging my public duty in putting forward the suggestion that I have made. In no other way can you prevent those whom the country is trying to tax directly from passing on their taxation by increasing the cost of living to the poorer members of the community. No man who was running a business would increase the cost of the commodities that he was selling if he knew that in no case could he retain more than £400 a year out of his profits. {: .speaker-JWC} ##### Mr Carr: -- Many would shut up shop under such an arrangement. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- The requirements of the public must be supplied. If my friend were in business he would feel himself compelled to keep going to prevent a competitor from taking trade from him which he could not win back again after the war. My proposal does not commend itself to the right honorable member for Swan; but it seems to me wise, instead of piling up a huge indebtedness, under which the country will hardly be able to stagger, to try to finance the war as we go on. My proposal would do that, and would, at the same time, allow every family to be maintained in decent comfort. {: .speaker-JWC} ##### Mr Carr: -- The honorable member proposes that we should pay for the war all at once. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- No, we cannot do that. If all income above £400 a year were taken by the State, it would not pay for the war, though it would enable us to keep down our indebtedness. Moreover, every one on whom direct taxation was imposed would have to pay taxation; he would not be able to pass it on. At the present time, however, persons in business are passing on to the general community, by increasing prices, more than the taxation which they are compelled to pay. I wish to prevent that. If the people are compelled to carry the whole load, you must expect trouble and dissatisfaction. We have heard about the increases in wages, but it is well-known that, whereas a man at one time could support a family on £120 a year, he requires £200 a year to do the same thing now, prices having increased so much. The right honorable member for Swan attacked my proposal, but he suggested nothing in place of it. We know, of course, that he is prepared to continue borrowing, but if we have to continue to borrow at the rate of £100,000,000 a year, the load of indebtedness will become more than Australia can bear. No one will say that there should be any increasing of bank accounts at the present time, though, as a matter of fact, many persons are now making and saving money. Some men should not be compelled to risk their lives at the front while others make money during the war. It cannot be contended that the poor man has as much to protect as the rich man has. All should be willing to protect their hearths and their homes, but the wealthy and propertied have more to protect than the poor have, and, at a time like this, should be prepared to pay the cost of the protection which they enjoy. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Is the honorable member attacking the proposals of the Government ? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- No; I am supporting them. I hope that measures will be taken to prevent those whom the right honorable member for Swan says he represents from passing their taxation on to the poorer members of the community, who now pay the bulk of the taxation. The right honorable member said that the poor were not taxed directly. I contend that they are taxed both .directly and indirectly. The income exempt from taxation is only £156 a year, with an allowance of £13 for each child, so that many a working man is taxed directly, in addition to having an immense amount of indirect taxation to pay. My great desire is to prevent the increasing of prices, and the incentive to the increase of prices is removed if you enact that all income above a certain amount shall go> into the coffers of the State. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is the honorable member satisfied with the proposals of the Government? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I shall support them, but I am firmly of the opinion that, in a time of national adversity such as the present, we should be prepared to give all that we have, over and above what is necessary to keep our families in decent comfort, to assist to prosecute the war to a successful termination. {: #debate-37-s3 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- I understand that it is not intended to place on the statute-book, until after the Military Service Referendum has been dealt with, the proposals for taxation which have been outlined by the Treasurer this afternoon. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- We should like to pass the entertainments tax before that. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- There is £17,000,000 in the Treasury. Therefore, more money cannot be needed by the Government just yet. The discussion of these proposals might very well be postponed until there is an opportunity to give statutory effect to them. My suggestion is that, having been given an airing, they might well be left over for more mature consideration later. In reply to the honorable member for Hunter, I say that the people of this country are prepared to stand up to whatever obligations may be fairly imposed on them by the war. I do not think that, as a whole, the proposals of the Treasurer will be seriously cavilled at, though differences of opinion make many matters of detail debatable. Taken by and large, the burden to be laid on the people is one which I think they will bear without a great deal of murmuring. Without committing myself in regard to every detail - for some of them require very serious consideration - I believe, speaking generally, the people of this country will recognise that they have to meet these obligations, and will do so in the spirit which has prompted them all through the war. They are prepared, I believe, to make whatever sacrifice is necessary to see this business through to the bitter end, if need be. If it comes to finding " the last man and the last shilling," which my honorable friend talks so much about, I believe they will do it rather than see our great heritage here taken possession of by Germany, for the purpose of German exploitation. However, it is not the time to talk about these extreme measures; we are not driven to them yet. When we have the Treasurer prefacing his statement by an intimation to the country that he is already in funds tq the extent of £17,000,000, I think my honorable friend will see that all his heroic, Spartan-like proposals are just a little previous. Does my honorable friend propose that everybody should pool all the wealth they have got, when it is not needed for the purposes of the war? He must recollect that, of the wealth of Australia, there is very little at the present time out of productive use; and to do what he suggests would be to withdraw the working capital and put it in the hands of the Treasury, and so dislocate, disturb, and destroy the very enterprises of the country which form, in the last resort, our staying power in this war. My honorable friend's proposal, if it were carried out, would not tend to the efficient conduct of the war, for it would remove the very props which are underneath the whole burden of the war, and which are necessary to its successful prosecution. It would be far better to drop this academic kind of thought, and stand up to the burdens as detailed to us - to meet the requirements of the moment from day to day, and as the obligations of the war make necessary. I believe that, when these burdens are proved to be necessary, the people will bear them without complaint. That has been the spirit 'of the Empire all through this war; and I do not believe that the burden-bearers in Australia are one whit behind, in patriotism, and even in generosity, those in every portion of the Empire and in every other portion of the theatre of war. There are one or two items that might very well be called in question. I regret to see that, with all the titanic war obligations towering up, the Treasurer is still increasing expenditure on the ordinary civil administration of the country. The great item of new works ought to be sifted bo the bottom. I do not believe that, in a time of war like this, while we are putting £7,000,000 of extra taxation on the people, we ought, at the same time, to increase the expenditure on new works from £2,800,000 to £4,394,000. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- It is all necessary work. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I have no doubt we could spend another £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, and still declare that it was for necessary works. I simply say that if, in war time, we go round looking for chances to spend money, we have not yet got into the spirit of the war. Rather should we be going round seeing what we can postpone until after the war is over. We have no- right to spend millions on anything that can be done without while the war lasts. I come, therefore, to my point that this staggering increase in the item of new works requires more explanation than that furnished by the Treasurer. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- Have you lost sight of the fact that the Naval and Military Departments account for £1,140,000 of the increase ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I should very much like to see the details, even of that expenditure. Because it relates to the Defence Department on its ordinary normal side, I think it requires sifting as much as any other expenditure. I am not talking of war expenditure, for that cannot be cavilled at so long as we are getting a £1 worth for every £1. But it is in regard to expenditure on the ordinary administration of the Defence Department that I say care and vigilance are needed to insure that the money is not wasted there any more than in any other Department. I frankly confess that I should like to see a committee of the House, composed of the best financial brains, set to work on the problem of finding where this money is going, and how much of the expenditure can be done without until the war is over. That kind of thing is being done everywhere else; this is the only place, so far as I know, where the Government of the day' feel themselves competent to undertake to supervise ;every ramification and every detail of these huge expenditures. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The Borden Government, in Canada, are doing the same thing. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member will find that in Canada there are several committees at work investigating the finances, item by item, and detail by detail; and something of the kind is badly needed here. Our expenditure is piling up every year with tremendous additions. I am only contending that in war time any increase should be justified by the most competent and careful scrutiny that can be applied. We require money for the war, and, therefore, we are under an obligation to the taxpayers to save all we legitimately can on the ordinary and normal administration of the Departments. It is for that reason I think that the increase in works expenditure from £2,800,000 to £4,394,000 ought to be sifted to the bottom. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- It is all Defence expenditure. What items does the right honorable member object to? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- We cannot settle the matter quite like that on the floor of the House. I cannot help feeling that there is room for very serious inquiry into many items of the detailed expenditure. The proposals of the Government mean a burden which I believe the taxpayers of the country will bear without any serious cavil. As to the details, I suppose these will be open to investigation and closer scrutiny in the light of the experience gained during the few weeks ahead of us. As to any cavilling or grumbling there may be about the additional burdens, it is our duty to tax the community in these stressful days fairly and justly, even if severely. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Some honorable members opposite are angry because the burden is not greater - that is the difficulty there! {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I think honorable members opposite will admit that the proposals are a pretty stiff dose. So far as a preliminary glance shows, the new taxes amount to about £8,000,000, which is a stiff dip into the pockets of the people of Australia. As I have said already, the bulk of the moneys here are already engaged in the productive enterprises of the country. There are no huge reservoirs of wealth of a vested kind such as there are in many of the older and richer countries in the world. Our capital here is all working capital, which, for the most part, is pressed into the productive enterprises of the country. Therefore, a proposal to pool this, willynilly, and pour it into some huge Government reservoir, there to remain until it is required for the purpose of the war, is the very thing to avoid in a young and developing country like this. There is one other point on which I should like to say a word, andthat is in regard to the sugar industry of Queensland. Events have come to a crisis up there. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- We in this Parliament are not toblame. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not think the honorable member can shirk his responsibility in that way. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- We do not wish to. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- And I do not think you should. Between the State Government and the Federal Government a very serious blow has been struck at the sugar industry of Queensland by the award of that young Judge who was sent to investigate the whole matter and set the new industrial order there. We may not criticise a Judge's conduct here, though I believe it has been laid down by **Mr. Justice** Higgins himself that we may discuss the character of his awards. And it is the character of this award that needs discussing, and very seriously discussing, with a view to seeing what is to be done with the men who find themselves rendered helpless thereby. The price of the product is fixed arbitrarily by one Government, while the industrial conditions are arbitrarily fixed by another Government. This kind of thing cannot go on, for between the upper and nether millstone these growers are in imminent danger of being ground " down and out." If ever there was a time when we ought to be trying to conserve the industries of Australia, it is surely in a time of war, when our population is being steadily depleted. Moreover, these are our vulnerable points, our Achilles' heel, and we ought to do all that is necessary to succour and support the men who, in a tropical climate, are doing their best to establish industries and supply a muchneeded population to that part of the country. But if the grower has to have his price fixed by one Government and his outgoing fixed by another, while he is allowed no say at all, it seems to me that we will have got to the point of leaving him with only the responsibility of his business, while the control from beginning to end is in the hands of others. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- I think we shall soon have to bring about Unification. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not know that that would help. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- It would in this case. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It might or it might not, but the mere call for Unification will not give the grower a fair " look in," either as to his product or as to the conditions under which it is grown. The grower is told that he must observe certain conditions, pay certain wages, feed his men in a certain way. He is told by one Government that he must make only so much profit, and by another Government that he must charge only so much to the consuming public. What is left to the unfortunate man except the responsibilities of working under conditions which are arbitrarily fixed for him from beginning to end - from the price right down to the tilling of the soil ? *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m.* {: #debate-37-s4 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- It is difficult, at first glance, to know exactly what the details of the proposals of the Treasurer will be. {: .speaker-JWC} ##### Mr Carr: -- There should be a quorum present. *[Quorum formed.]* {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- As regards the Wartime Profits Taxation Bill, I would impress on the Treasurer the necessity of exempting the gold-mining industry. I make that request in the interests of the people of Australia generally, and not of those concerned in the industry itself. No extra price is being paid for gold on account of the war, nor can the war bring any extra profit to the industry. On the other hand, the expenditure incurred in winning the gold has been greatly increased by war conditions, including the rise in the price of all commodities required, and the cost of labour has also gone up. It would be most unwise to do anything that might retard the industry at a time when it is essential to produce all the gold possible to provide us with the sinews of war. It would be inequitable to put upon gold mining a tax similar to that on other industries. The Great Boulder Mine, in Western Australia, has been paying enormous dividends for the last twenty years, although latterly these have had a tendency to reduce, but it is still making immense profits. Under the provisions of the Bill, it would not pay a single penny by way of a war-profits tax, but a company which had been struggling for years, and paid its first dividend in 1915-16 would have to hand over 50 per cent. of its profits for that year to the Crown and this year would have to hand over the whole of them. Any provision of that sort means a serious stoppage in the goldmining industry. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- I do not think goldmining profits would be regarded as war profits. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- These would be included under the Bill which has been circulated, even though the industry is actually suffering owing to the war. Prospectors, of whom there are numbers in Western Australia, may earn nothing for five or six years, but if one of them strikes a good patch, bringing him in, say, £1,500 to £2,000, half of that amount, if gained in 1915-16, must go to the Crown, or if in this year, the lot. The same thing applies to tributers in Victoria. These arguments do not apply to any other class of mining, for the price of lead, copper, molybdenite, and other metals has been very much increased owing to the war. The Bill, if passed in its present form, will stop a large amount of developmental work, and prevent people putting money into the gold-mining industry, although we want developmental work now more than ever, not only to produce gold, but to provide labour for our men when they come back. The Treasurer, I know, has been interviewed, and has gone well into this question, and I hope he will not do anything to retard this big Australian industry. I would also ask him seriously to consider whether he should go so far in his war-profits taxation as outlined in his proposals submitted to us this afternoon. If he takes, as he suggests, the whole of the profits in 1916-17, with the exception of 7 or 8 per cent. on the capital employed, he will destroy all incentive to profit-making. A company which last year made £50,000 would say this year, " It is useless to try to push our business to make increased profits, because they will all be absorbed by the Government." As these proposals will have farreaching results upon all our industries, I earnestly recommend the Treasurer to appoint a Committee to take evidence on the subject. I do not wish in any sense to put obstacles in the way of him receiving the necessary revenue, but I am sure his desire is to get his revenue while doing the least harm he can to the industries of Australia. His proposals as outlined, if applied in their present form, will destroy that incentive to industry and to make profits which should be the guiding principle of any business firm, and he will probably make less revenue than he would if he continued in 1916-17 to take only that proportion of the profits which he proposes to take .for 1915-16. With the proposed tax on amusements I think every member is in accord, but the Treasurer would be wise if he ear-marked the resulting revenue for repatriation purposes. I know he has a special proposal for that purpose, but we have heard even up to the present time a great number of complaints about the way in which returned soldiers are being treated, and we want to help them all we can. I am sure the Treasurer desires this also, and I would therefore earnestly suggest that lj per cent, on the capital value of the whole of the capital of Australia, giving him some £10,000,000, will not be sufficient, and strongly recommend that the tax on amusements should be ear-marked for the same purpose. The control of the repatriation funds should be put into the hands of business people. Keep the politician out of it altogether. He has plenty of work to do here. If the Treasurer does as I suggest, he will find the money far better administered, and everybody concerned treated more fairly. There will be no political influence if the Treasurer gets some sound business men to control the expenditure of the fund for the benefit of the men who come back from the front. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Not much common sense has been exhibited so far by the patriotic funds managament, and that is mostly conducted by private people. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- They are mostly people who are giving their services for nothing, which they cannot reasonably be expected to do. If we desire a fund of £10,000,000 to be expended in the interests of our soldiers when they return, we should place it in the hands of good, sound, solid business people, who are paid for the work, and will devote their whole time to it. The strictures passed by the right honorable member for Swan this afternoon in regard to extravagance were in every sense justified. There is undoubtedly a necessity for economy in the administration of public affairs. I am sure the Treasurer is fully impressed with the necessity for care in bringing forward his taxation measures. He knows perfectly well that when we take money from the people by taxation we limit the power of the people to employ labour. If we tax them heavily, we tend seriously to reduce employment and destroy industry. It is therefore wise in bringing for ward taxation proposals to take the utmost care that we do not ask for more than the people can afford to give. I do not think the proposals brought forward to-night have gone too far, but one cannot help noting a very grave increase in expenditure, not only in administration - an increase which is not at all justified - but also in proposed new works. Not one of the new works, involving a colossal expenditure, embodied in the Government proposals will mean an extra 6d. in production. We have to depend on our primary industries for our wealth. We have only to look at *Knibbs* to see the sources from which the wealth of Australia comes. I should have been pleased if the Committee had been told something by the Treasurer in his statement about the locking of the Murray. I would like an assurance from the Treasurer that he is urging the States to proceed with this work. I want to see it pushed forward. It is not being pushed. There is a silence in regard to it. What is the use of the expenditure that is outlined on page 9 of this Bill - expenditure on additions to the Cordite Factory, the Harness Factory, the Clothing Factory, the Small Arms Factory, on barracks, land purchases, arsenals, and naval bases? There is no hurry for these works. Honorable members should not forget that at the present time there are 250,000 of our workmen who are either in our military camps or at the front, and that our industries can well absorb the labour that is left, here, without the Government assisting to make it difficult to procure labour. Surely it is not necessary for the Government to push on with works such as I have enumerated when 250,000 of our men are absent. What will it matter if some of these naval bases are delayed for a couple of years ? We shall want money later on, and we shall want to provide our returned soldiers with work. I feel certain that our boys at the front will advertise Australia so well that they will bring a large number of immigrants back with them. They are sure to cause a big influx of immigrants to the Commonwealth. If we have the money then, that will be the time when we should proceed with works such as I have outlined. I would have liked, however, to see a special effort made to start undertakings which ultimately will prove not only self-sustaining, but which will add to the settlement of a large number of persons on the land. The Treasurer knows full well that when our soldiers return to this country, the States will need to go in for building railways. It will be idle to put a man on the land if there is not a railway within about 10 miles of him to take his produce to market. Consequently, it is essential that we should make every effort to save money now. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- That is what the Labour Government in Kew South Wales have been doing for the past couple of years. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- One has only to look at the taxation and public debts of New South Wales and Western Australia to become disgusted with Labour Governments. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- We should do away with the State Parliaments. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Would that do any good? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -Yes, a lot of good. It is useless expenditure. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Does the honorable member realize that Western Australia occupies a third of the whole of this continent, and that there is room there for millions of people f That State is urgently in need of development, and a great deal of that development will have to be done by the State. The Government of Western Australia must undertake works with a view to the settlement of the people on the land. What chance would that State have of being adequately represented in this Parliament? It would be entitled to only five members. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- What is its population? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have already pointed out its area and potentialities. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- The honorable member always considered acres and billy-goats in preference to human beings. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The honorable member himself would be sorry to leave the future development of South Australia in the hands of the Commonwealth Government. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- No fear. I am a Unificationist. Do not worry. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Then I am sorry if South Australia has many more representatives like the honorable member. He would find out what are the evils attendant upon Unification when tie development of the State from which he hails waa vested in the bands of a few officials at Canberra. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- It cannot be woree than the Legislative Councils of the States. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I do not see why the Government wish to absorb labour at the present time.. There is no need for it. We cannot forget, as was pointed out by the right honorable member for Swan, that during the last few quarters there has been an alarming increase in the number of industrial disputes throughout Australia. What is the reason for that? Look at the statistics relating to these disturbances in New South Wales. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- If a man goes home to his dinner and forgets to return to his work it is registered as an industrial dispute. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- During the first quarter of the present year over £260,000 was lost in wages. Was that the result of men going home to their dinners and neglecting to return to their employment ? Week after week our newspapers are full of reports concerning industrial disputes. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- As great a loss of wages is involved in the declaration of one unnecessary public holiday as is involved in all our industrial disturbances throughout the year. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I would like the honorable member to justify that statement by statistics. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- It is a fact. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The unfortunate feature is that these disputes extend even to businesses that are controlled by the Federal Government. Despite the keen desire of Ministers to placate their own supporters, we find industrial disputes occurring day after day in Government enterprises. The loss thus occasioned is not represented by the lossof wages, but by the national loss which accrues. I put all these troubles down to the existence of the Arbitration Court. I do not know of any country in the world where greater animosity exists between the worker and the capitalist than exists in Australia. I do not know who is to blame for this. It seems to me that it is entirely due to the work of the Arbitration Court When parties resort to that tribunal, they go there to fight. Each side knows that it has to put its best case before the President of the Court. Take the position of the sugar industry to-day. I am sure that nobody feels it more keenly than does the Treasurer. He knows that millions of pounds have been invested in that industry. He knows that thousands of men have embarked ' their all in it. Yet we find that it is now threatened with colT lapse, and that chaos prevails. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- "Why is that? {: #debate-37-s5 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · LP; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920 -- Let the honorable member read the award of the Acting Judge of the Arbitration Court, and he will know. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- The growers have gone on strike. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- And I would go on strike in similar circumstances. But there is. a great difference between the sugar-grower who goes on strike and the workman who goes on strike. The latter not 'only refuses to work himself,, but generally declines to allow any other person to work in his stead. So far as the sugargrower is concerned, he has simply to suspend operations. He cannot employ other people.- . He has to lose the whole of his production for the year, or pay the wageswhich the - Court has awarded. But I wish, more particularly, to make a few observations in regard to the Small Arms Factory.; ' In this connexion I directed the attention of honorable members the. other evening to certain facts within my own knowledge. I did not like having to do so, but I had previously made representations on .the matter which were without effect. I read in the *Argus* to-day that it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the erection- of an arsenal, and that journal gave- the names of those who are to be intrusted with the expenditure upon this work. Now I pointed out some time ago that the construction of an arsenal will cost anything from £2,250,000 to £2,500,000. If we are going to expend this money, we ought to see that full value is obtained for it. Now, although I object to State Socialism, I think that if there is one avenue of manufacture which the Government- ought to control, it is that of the manufacture of munitions. But when we enter ' upon this undertaking the nation should get a fair deal. The other night I pointed out that in 1914, 360 rifles from our Small Arms Factory were sent to "Western Australia, out of which number more than 100 were unfit to be supplied to the troops. Yet those weapons had been sent out of the factory after having been tested, and examined. Since, then I have heard of several other consignments that were equally bad. I have already related my own experience when I found that the forearms of some' of these rifles snapped like rotten carrots, that the bolts were so badly fitted* that the weapons were absolutely unsafe for men to use- {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W Elliot Johnson: -- Have any of these rifles been used by our men at the front? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Some were sent there. And although the Minister for Defence told the people of Bendigo the other day that we were not only supplying our own troops with rifles, but those of other Dominions also, the statement is not a fact. I also pointed out the other evening that, whereas it was originally estimated that these rifles would cost £3 9s. Id. each, so far as I could gather from the last report of the Auditor-General, which was issued only about three weeks ago, they are costing about £15 each. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Was that the AuditorGeneral's report for 1915? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Yes; but it dealt, with the factory report for 1914. I have asked the Minister to allow the 1915 repoet to be published at once. I waa anxious to induce the Department to send inspectors to inspect the rifles before these were sent away from the factory. About half-a-dozen- inspectors were sent up there, with the result that hundreds of . rifles ready to be sent out were condemned. They were taken to pieces, and faults were found in 1 every rifle that waa examined. The report I have states - There is a state of chaos- which is almost beyond imagination. Thousands of component parts have been scrapped. Many hundreds of rifles that were ready to be sent out have been stripped and all found to be defective, with the result that the men employed to assemble the rifles are now engaged in trying to save the best of them. The present condition of affairs is most deplorable, and demands immediate attention and reform. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Is it not a fact that the rifles are to undergo certain alterations! . {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No; the rifles are being sent, out for use in Australia. According to a rough calculation I made, they cost about *£15* a piece, but God knows what they will cost' now. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- From, what is the honorable member quoting ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- From a report I have received ; and I speak, also, from my personal knowledge. - There should be an . inquiry into this condition of affairs. It is a. serious matter when we are asked to spend an enormous sum of money upon an arsenal. A large quantity of machinery for the factory was ordered subsequent tq the declaration of war at a higher price than it could have been secured for earlier. Only a few parts of that machinery have been placed in position. For the want of shafting, the majority of it still remains to be placed in position. The Minister for Defence knows this to be the condition of affairs, and he is asking us to accept the advice of Colonel Owen, as a military expert. I do not wish to detract from Colonel Owen's reputation in any way, but we cannot look upon him as an expert in regard to the manufacture of munitions. I do not suppose that he was ever in a munitions factory in his life until he went to India to make inquiries in connexion with the establishment of an arsenal there. We have had a Small Arms Factory in existence for some years now, and, as the result of bad management, which has been hidden by the Minister for Defence, it is reduced to a state of chaos. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member will admit that Colonel Owen had excellent men with him. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I admit that **Mr. McKay** is a first class engineer. I have no wish to reflect upon him ; but he is not a specialist in work of this sort. Again, it must be remembered that the arsenal could not be completed within the next three or four years, and cannot be of the slightest value to us so far as this war is concerned. We shall be able later on to purchase the most up-to-date machinery at from half to two-thirds of the price of machinery to-day. Revolutions are daily taking place in the methods adopted in the manufacture of war munitions, and if we delay in this matter we shall be able later to purchase for our arsenal the best machinery that can be produced, and to secure the most expert advice for its control and management. What we need now is some one who can successfully manage the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow. One cannot say too much in praise of the workmen at Lithgow. When we went there they were working only one shift, but the men said thev were prepared to work two shifts of twelve hours, and every third Sunday in the month. The men are willing to work, and are good workmen, but it is the management of the factory that has failed. It is in such a state of chaos to-day that an exhaustive examination would show that it should be closed down immediately, or such alterations should be made as would enable it to produce an effective weapon. That is the sort of thing that isgoingon under Government control. Honorable members opposite tell us how necessary it is that there should be Government control, not only of this, but also Of other industries, the State control of which is not nearly so important. I should like to quote one or two references from the report of the Public Accounts Committee concerning the results of another attempt on the part of the Government to carry on work of this sort. I refer to the Cockatoo. Island Dock, and I quote the following from the report of the Committee, signed by members of this House - >The estimated complete cost of the *Brisbane,* as supplied by the Navy Office, is £610,000. This does not include any proportionate charges for interest, depreciation, or supervision. > >The *Sydney,* built in Great Britain, on the Clyde, cost £385,000, and the *Melbourne,* constructed at Birkenhead, cost £405,000. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- The honorable member is no doubt aware that labourers employed for 4s. 6d. and 6s. per day on the Clyde get 10s. here, and tradesmen employed on the Clyde at 6s. and 7s. per day get 13e. here. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- What I should like the honorable member for Fawkner to do is to read the Teport published by **Mr. King** Salter, the manager. of the Cockatoo Island Dockyards, who points out that the present administration is the cause of the loss of hundreds of thousands of pounds annually to the Commonwealth. He says - >If they would only allow me to employ men on the piece-work system, I could get men to come from the Old Country. They will not come here now, because they can earn more at piece-work in the Old Country than they could earn here at day work, and the cost of living is less. If they could be employed on piecework they could earn between £7 and £8 a week here. I could save hundreds of thousands of pounds, and get vessels out in a reasonable time, and we should not be losing the effective life of those vessels as we are doing to-day. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Is it not a fact that such workmen are not ' allowed to leave Great Britain at the present time? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I am speaking of a time before the war. This work was started before the war. The *Brisbane* was to be completed in 1914. She is not completed yet; and God knows when she will be. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- How many hours do they work along the Clyde to make the wages referred to by the honorable member under the piece-work system? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have a report issued by **Mr. Lloyd** George, in which he refers to the number of hours that are worked on the Clyde, and, as a rule, they are very few indeed. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Under war conditions? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I repeat that I am not speaking of war conditions, but of a time before the war, and at Cockatoo Island those- conditions have been - continued up to the present time. The majority of the Committee presenting the report from which I have quoted was composed of honorable members of the other side. Here is a reference made to the cost of other vessels - As another comparison between the cost of work at Cockatoo and elsewhere, the case of the sister launches *Cresswell* and *Jenner* was cited to the Committee. The former vessel was built at Cockatoo, the latter by Messrs. Robinson Bros., of Melbourne. The cost of the Gresswell is given as £12,800, which, again, does not include proportionate charges for interest, depreciation, and supervision, such as have to be added by private firms. The *Jenner* was contracted for at £5,000. We understand that the 'firm concerned lost about £1,000 on this undertaking. Adding this to the contract price of the *Jenner,* we find" that, in the case of the *dresswell,* certain alterations were carried out, costing about £500. There was a further addition to the cost through the vessel having to bear an unusual amount of holiday charges. Also that considerable delay was caused by nondelivery of materials. Making due allowance for these, it would appear that the launch built at Cockatoo cost about double the price of a similar vessel, admitted to be a satisfactory job, constructed at a private yard. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- What is the answer to that? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- There can be only one answer, and that is that the Government have dismally failed in the administration of these works. This House should have reports showing every detail connected with the operations in these Government factories, so that the public may be in a position to decide whether they are being carried on successfully or not. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W Elliot Johnson: -- What about the awards the men at Cockatoo Island are working under? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It will give honorable members some idea of the way in which things are done at Cockatoo Island when they learn what the general manager had to say about the awards in operation there. He said - " Here 1 am," working under fifty-one awards, and new ones keep cropping up every day. How on earth can a man run an establishment of this sort and meet the contending forces of fifty-one different awards?" Several unions cover one industry. There are two painters' unions. There are three carpenters' unions. The labourers have many unions, and many awards -and conflicting awards. It is absolutely impossible to try to run this island on economic lines, when you have so many conflicting rates of pay and overtime, and all that sort of thing, and different rates for night shift. One of the greatest difficulties here is the multiplicity of labourers' unions, necessitating the employment of a much larger number of men than is necessary. One union allows its members to handle steel and iron, another union only allows its men to handle wood. If I require a labourer to do general carting about the yard, I must have a man of one union to cart the steel and iron, and a member of another union to cart wood. . . . All the painters and dockers insist that they shall cart all wood about, and the ironworkers' assistants insist that they shall cart all steel and iron about. I have to pay the assistants to one grade 9s.,. though the award rate is only 8s.; I have to pay the shipwrights' assistant, who is a painter and docker, 10s. per day. We should have a uniform rate for labourers, and a man who is a labourer should do ordinary labourers' work. Where we require assistance for a mechanical man, we should get men accustomed to the trade, and get uniformity that way. That is the essence of economy in work of this sort; but as for general carting about, lifting gear, and carting about bars and plates; I have to have two or three unions to do this work. Another instance is that the labourers assisting ironworkers are not allowed, according to the painters and dockers, to clear up the work behind them. I must bring in a man of another union to do that. He goes on to say - Only the other day I had the secretary of a union here who insisted that I must employ builders' labourers on a work that had nothing to do with building, that is, a coffer-dam. Their award is a- Federal award, providing for fortyfour hours a week, and if I employed those labourers for forty-eight hours that the other men work, I should have to pay them overtime rates. I. could multiply these matters *ad infinitum.* I had a fight the other day between certain trades over a temporary gantry. Tho joiners and shipwrights had a battle royal oyer it as to whether it was joiners' or shipwrights' work. I managed to fix them up. These questions of demarcation lead to endless deputations. In the last few months I have kept a clerk practically half his time employed in taking down shorthand notes of deputations on questions of demarcation and other grievances. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- We have shorthand writers here taking down our grievances. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The Minister for the Navy visits Cockatoo Island to settle matters in dispute, hut he takes care that the public shall not know what his decision is in its entirety. Some time ago I asked the Minister for Home Affairs to lay on the table the requests made to him by workers at Canberra. The carpenters asked 18s. per day. These are people suffering on account of the war, and for whom we have been asked to provide work, and they ask for 18s. per day, and if the carpenter has to go 20 feet above the ground he asks for 2s. per day extra. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- Was that request granted ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I do not think so; but I wish to know what is being done. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- The carpenter is quite right in asking for the money, if he thinks he can get it. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Contractors try to make all the profit they can. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It may be quite right to say that these men are justified in asking for such wages, if they think they can get them; but we do not want politicians dependent upon these men for their votes to bo able to use public money in order to placate them. Let us consider the proposal of the Treasurer. We find that £5,100,000 has already been voted for the transcontinental railway, and he wants £1,600,000 more. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Shall we stop the construction of the line? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- If that railway had been constructed under contract, it would have cost something like £4,500,000, and its construction would have been completed before now. I wish to see the interests of the Commonwealth protected, and I should like this railway in time to be able to pay interest on construction and working expenses. I object to politicians using their positions by spending public money to placate these people. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Did that happen with your Government in regard to the Teesdale Smith contracts? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have had as much experience of public works as any other member of this House, with the exception, perhaps, of the right honorable member for Swan, ' because for nine years I was a Minister of the Crown in Western Australia, where, in regard to the public works, we were not tied to the contract system on the one hand or to the day-labour system on the other. We would call for tenders, and also ask the Engineer-in-Chief, as head of the Department, for an estimate of a particular work. If we found that a contractor was well within or close up to that estimate, we had that work done by contract, but if *se* thought that the contractors were putting their heads together to fleece the Government, we did the work by day labour. We carried out a lot of work in that way, and we got it well done, too. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- You admit that you had to adopt day labour because contractors were trying to " get at " the Government? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Yes ; but in regard to Commonwealth works the Government are pledged to the day-labour system altogether, and that, I think, is not at all a desirable state of affairs. I admit that the manufacture of munitions should be under the control of the Government, and I was only pointing out what an awful mess has been made in regard to the Small Arms Factory. Prior to the establishment of that factory, all the particulars were submitted to Parliament, and there was a guarantee that with the plant then to be installed - it has since been increased - 152 unskilled and two skilled workmen, working eight hours a day, would be able to turn out 15,000 rifles a year. I have already shown that the output was very small indeed. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Would you not get the same difference in the cost of production of rifles here as compared with the cost of rifles in America, and the cost of boots here and boots in America? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I cannot say; but I know the estimated cost of a rifle in Australia was £3 9s. Id., based on wages of 8s. per day of eight hours. {: .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr Thomson: -- And working under Australian conditions. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Yes, under Australian conditions absolutely. But I would not complain about the cost of the rifles if they were fit to be handed to our troops. I do object, and I think every member in this House should object, if rifles manufactured in Australia are not as perfect as possible. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- The official report from Gallipoli was to the effect that the Australian rifle compared more than favorably with rifles from any other part of the world. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I did not see that report, and I do not believe that anything of the sort was said, because I know perfectly well that hundreds of rifles turned out by the Lithgow Factory have been sent to the armoury, and that at the present time inspectors, appointed by the Defence Department, are condemning the rifles in hundreds. What is the use of trying to evade these facts? An inquiry should be held at once into this matter. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- What is wrong? Are the workmen clumsy? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No; I think the fault lies in the administration. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- By the Minister? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Probably by the man in charge; but the Minister should not attempt to hide these things. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- An Arbitration Court should be able to deal with him. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- An Arbitration Court ! It would require more than that. What we want is a man of courage to effectively control the factory. I would not care if we paid him £1,500 a year so long as he could train the others, and insure first-class workmanship. That is what we want, and nothing more. I think I have said quite enough to show that an inquiry is necessary before the Government go ahead with the expenditure in connexion with the arsenal. Moreover, it is essential that this inquiry should be made as speedily as possible. I want now to say something concerning the system of controlling the flotation of companies. This is in the hands of the Treasurer, but Parliament never intended that a matter of this sort should be placed under his control. I can quite understand that the Treasurer should be in a position to prevent money going out of Australia, or being utilized for some purpose which, iu his opinion, would be inimical to the best interests of the nation; but I think that the Treasurer is making a very great mistake in the embargo with regard to mining adventures. He is acting, I understand, on the advice of a gentleman who occupies an honorary position. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Are you referring to a man outside the Public Service? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I am referring to **Mr. Higgins,** who has been brought in to advise the Minister with regard to these particular matters. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- In an honorary capacity? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Yes. An officer in his position should be paid by the Government, and be under the control of the Minister. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- **Mr. Higgins'** service in that capacity is part of the service which he is rendering in connexion with the war. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Is he paid by theAttorneyGeneral's Department? {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- No, I believe not. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Then he is an bonorary officer? {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- I believe you are quite right. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Well, there is something wrong with the system. I understand from **Mr. Higgins** that he has been working twenty hours a day, doing an enormous amount of work for the Government, and to my mind some of it requires very close investigation. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- What does the honorable member mean by that statement? May we take it that it has a sinister meaning ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No, I did not mean in any sinister sense. I am speaking with regard to the qualifications of the gentleman mentioned to deal with the several matters that he is advising upon. With regard to the export of molybdenite, I pointed out that when the war began the British Government had urgently wanted this metal of which Australia was producing about two-thirds of the world's out put. We had been sending it out of Australia for many years, and the average grade was about 80 per cent. As a rule we could not produce a higher grade ore, and prior to the war the metal produced here was purchased by America, Germany, France, Great Britain, and other nations. When the war started the British Government wanted it very badly, and advised that they were prepared to pay 105s. per unit for 90 per cent, grade. For some years several people in Australia had specialized in the molybdenite business, and had contracts with the Mother Country ; but when control of the export trade was vested in the Government, the responsible Minister handed over the whole business of exporting molybdenite, wolfram, and the associated alloy metals to Dalgety and Company, who were also paid an extraordinary commission for handling it. The AttorneyGeneral's Department bungled the business in the first place, because - as they did not understand the matter - they would not allow any molybdenite to be sent out of Australia unless it was 90 per cent. grade. The British Government were prepared to accept 80 per cent. grade, but would make a reduction *on* the price offered for 90 per cent. grade. Large quantities of molybdenite were ready to be sent from Australia just at the time when Great Britain wanted it, perhaps, more than anything else, and this official bungling, in my opinion, was criminal. Prior to the war the cost of sending molybdenite to London was about £6 per ton, but when the Government handed the business over to Dalgety and Company, they allowed £55 16s. 8d. per ton for freight, and gave them the sole right to trade in that metal during the currency of the war. It was only after representations were made by the Imperial Government that a certain person in Sydney, a man who had interested himself very greatly in this trade, was allowed to complete the contracts which he had entered into prior to the war. Now, with regard to the flotation of mining companies, the Treasurer, acting on the advice of this honorary official, might refuse half-a-dozen out of ten propositions, with the result that the four which might be approved of would bear the hall-mark of the Department. In such circumstances, I can quite understand that the clever gentlemen behind such propositions would take advantage of the position, and would say to the public, " We have taken this proposition to the Department, they have examined every phase of it to see whether it is fair or not; they turned down innumerable other proposals, but have agreed to this, so you can come into it with every confidence." This is a big responsibility for the Government to take. It is quite possible that the Treasurer will do an injury to the mining industry if he allows this thing to continue. I do not say that every proposal should be placed before the public, but I think I have said enough to indicate the danger of the present position so far as the development of mining is concerned. During the nine years that I was Minister for Mines in Western Australia, we were informed many times that unscrupulous people had come forward with proposals to deceive investors, and we were asked if we could take action to control them, but we were always confronted with the difficulty that, before doing anything in that direction, the various propositions ought to be examined. If we sent an inspector today, a reef may assay 4 oz. in the face, but to-morrow fail to show values. The difficulty is to prove fraud. The danger I see in regard to the Government proposals to control the flotation of mining companies is that the hall-mark of the Department might be placed upon certain propositions. The Minister should allow mining propositions to follow their ordinary course unless he finds that more money is being utilized on such expenditure than is advisable in the interests of the Commonwealth. I urge on the Government the necessity for making public as speedily as possible their proposals for the coming season's wheat pool. Many strictures have been passed on me because I expressed the opinion a few nights ago that the wheat pool would probably prove detrimental to the farmers' interests. In a few weeks another big harvest will be added to the 30,000,000 bags of wheat that are now on hand in the pool, and one cannot help looking forward with misgivings to its future possibilities. Itrust that the Government will make public their proposals in regard to this matter as speedily as possible, so that the producers may know what their position will be. Mr.FENTON (Maribyrnong) [8.46].- We could almost dub the honorable member for Dampier the Jeremiah from the West. He has been telling a dismal tale for an hour past. His wail in regard to the arsenal, about which he is so often talking, reminds me of the men who a few years ago endeavoured to prevent Australia from establishing her own Navy; made all sorts of prophecies about it, and raised all sorts of opposition to Australia doing all she possibly could for herself. Some honorable members find it quite easy to say that what is attempted to be done in Australia is always a huge failure, and what is done for Australia in other parts of the world is always a success. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I said nothing of the sort. {: #debate-37-s6 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- That was the effect of the honorable member's remarks. No one knows better than he that there is nothing more necessary in Australia to-day than the establishment of an arsenal as soon as it can possibly be done. The honorable member spoke as if all the machinery required for the arsenal was to be purchased to-morrow. He knows full well that that is not the intention. He has heard sworn testimony that there will be a time when Australia can enter the field and purchase the machinery it requires from those who are now using it in the manufacture of munitions. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Does not the honorable member think that there should first be a thorough inquiry by experts ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- There has been an inquiry by experts. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Would the honorable member build the arsenal before he knew what machinery was to be placed in it ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- No, but I would make all the preliminary preparations. The honorable member has been wailing about the new impositions on the taxpayers for the purpose of carrying on the war. One of the first essentials in the establishment of an arsenal is money. I am glad that the Minister for Defence is taking this matter in hand in a hearty fashion, and that he is accepting the advice tendered to him by the committee of experts that visited India and examined similar establishments there. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Is the honorable member satisfied that it is proposed to be built in a suitable place ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Yes. One of the most eminent engineers in Australia; **Mr. McKay,** of Walkers Limited, who was one of the experts who visited India, gave evidence before the Public Works Committee, and said, " There is no better site in Australia than the Tuggeranong site at Canberra." One of the reasons for the opposition of the honorable member for Dampier to the establishment of an arsenal there is that it will mean creating a city where the workmen will dwell under the most model conditions. Honorable members opposite do not like this idea. We shall establish a workmen's city, with a population of about 20,000. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- If the Government propose to do these things at Tuggeranong, why have they not done them already at Lithgow ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am glad to see that a sum of money has been placed on the Works Estimates ' for the purpose of carrying on a vigorous policy in regard to the establishment of an arsenal. Australia is a long way behind in such matters, and any impeding of the object that the Minister has in view in this regard would be criminal. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- No one will impede the establishment of an arsenal if it is started properly. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Before putting on such a judicial air, and casting an opinion on a question that he has not studied, the honorable member should view the site and hear, the evidence in regard to its suitability for the purpose for which it has been recommended. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- Will the honorable member allow me to ask him a question? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The honorable member, as a member of the Public Works Committee, which was almost unanimous in its decision that Tuggeranong is one of the best sites for an arsenal, has already had ample opportunity of putting questions and of hearing satisfactory replies to them: Apart from my connexion with the Public Works Committee, I propose to do all that I can to assist in the establishment ot an arsenal in Australia. Steel rolling works are essential to ship-building and the manufacture of guns. An arsenal will help very materially in the work of maintaining our mercantile fleet. If the *Australia* stood in need of repairs to one of her plates, there would be no place in the Commonwealth where a new plate could be rolled out. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Surely the honorable member does not propose to roll plates for the *Australia* at Tuggeranong? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am surprised that two young, vigorous Australians on the Opposition benches are opposed to Australians doing Australia's work with Australian workmen. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- That statement is quite incorrect. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- An arsenal is absolutely essential for Australia's progress and defence. That is why I am so much in earnest in my hope that the Ministry will have no hesitation in going on with this work. When the facts are before honorable members I believe that they will not hesitate in swinging behind the Ministry in this matter. We ought to be further ahead than we are. We do not know what troubles lie before us, and dependence on overseas for our requirements is a most foolish policy. Australia has already had a splendid example of what can be done in regard to the manufacture of certain articles required in warfare. As the result of our foresight in establishing a factory of our own in order to make ourselves absolutely independent of importations of cordite, the Commonwealth Cordite Factory has supplied noi only the cartridges for our own Expeditionary Forces, but also the requirements of other parts of the British Empire in this respect. Experts say that our cordite is absolutely better than that turned out in Great Britain. When the Victorian State Government first determined to manufacture locomotives, because the work was new to the engineers, it took a long time to turn out one or two, and those cost a great deal more than the engines turned out today. People put it down to the " Government stroke," and raised a cry about the Government making that which previously had been purchased oversea; but as time went on, and the workshops at Newport were better equipped, and manned, and officered, they began to produce locomotives superior to, and cheaper than, those turned out at Philadelphia. If honorable members would obtain from the Engineer-in-Chief of the Victorian Railways the prices of engines manufactured at Newport Workshops and compare them with the prices of engines manufactured in England and America, they would find that at Newport Australian workmen are doing splendid work. Certainly there were difficulties at the commencement of engine construction there, just as there were in connexion with the commencement of ship-building in Australian dockyards. We were bound to have trouble with the first war ship to be built in Australia, but when the initial difficulties have been overcome, and our workmen are well trained and officered, we shall be able to do work of a quality equal to that of any other part of the world. The Government have set a splendid example. Australia, with its coast line of 8,000 miles, must become a maritime country, and we should endeavour to build in the Commonwealth all the ships we require for both our Navy and the mercantile marine. I believe that every true Australian is desirous that this country, which is so marvellously blessed with raw material, shall be as self-contained as possible. If there is a country in the world that ought to be self-contained it is Australia. Can we continue for ever sending raw material in large quantities to other parts of the world to be made up and then imported back for Australians themselves to use? Surely it is time we were out of that wood, and converted our own raw material into the finished article. It is essentially Australia's duty, and particularly this Parliament's duty, to try to have work, such as the manufacture of munitions and the building of ships, done in Australia. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Why assume that any one is opposed to the establishment of an arsenal ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I cannot for ever sit down and listen quietly to a general tirade, the effect of which is that the Australian workman and the Australian article are no good. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Nonsense. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- When the honorable member for Dampier was speaking, the burden of his argument was that under Government control, and in Government factories nothing good could be done. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -: - He said the workmen are doing their work very well. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- So they are, but the honorable member for Dampier said many things about Australian workmen which were of a different tenor from what he had to say about the workmen pf Lithgow. One could not regard **Mr. Delprat,** the general manager of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company, as a labourite, but when a question was put to him with regard to the intelligence and general adaptability of the Australian workman, he said ' There is no better workman in the world than the Australian." Then if we have in Australia the best workmen in the world, why are we always despising the products of those workmen? They are turning out products superior in workmanship to the output of American factories. The honorable member for Dampier made a complaint in regard to some of the rifles. A few of us have had the privilege of firing out of an Australian-made rifle. I do not claim to be a judge of a rifle, but I have heard it said by men who rank among the most expert riflemen in Australia that some of the best weapons they have handled have been made at Lithgow. A reference to the *Hansard* reports of the Canadian Parliament will show that the same kind of discussion has taken place in the Dominion in regard to the Ross rifle. The Canadian troops were armed with that rifle and sent to the front, and complaint was continually made that something was wrong with it. Investigations proved the complaints to be of a trumpery character, and it was shown that the condemnation should have been of the ammunition used rather than of the rifle. I believe that we have overcome the initial difficulties in connexion with the manufacture of rifles in Australia, and I trust that the Government will extend their manufacturing operations to many other articles. In order to emphasize the high qualifications of Australian workmen I would remind honorable members that from 600 to 1,000 Australians are working in some of the chief factories engaged in the production of munitions of war in Great Britain, and those who are complaining about the Australian artisans would receive a valuable education if they could go to the Old Country and see what these men are doing there. I am told on the best authority that the Australian workmen who went to the establishments of Vickers and Sons, and other firms, are able to turn out in seven hours work which takes other operatives eleven hours to do. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr Pigott: -- But those are picked men. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- No. Some of them went to England on their own responsibility and paid their own passages, and they are to-day displaying in British factories that fine spirit and quality which characterizes the Australian workman. I rose this evening mainly for the purpose of answering the continual opposition, to the establishment of an arsenal in . Australia. I hope there will be no more of these protests, but that we shall unite and have the arsenal speedily established on one of the best sites in Australia There is much work that an arsenal can do. I am not speaking only of what can be done from a defence point of view. Let honorable members think of the work that can be done for ordinary industries The Customs and Lighthouse Department will have big requirements to be catered for. Services will be required for Norfolk Island, Lord Howe Island, Papua, and, I believe, other places as well, and vessels will be needed to handle the island trade. Therefore, for peaceful operations alone it is essential that we should have a factory such as I have outlined. Above all, I maintain that one of the first branches of the arsenal to be established must be the steel works, to do all the work that is so necessary in connexion with ship building and other industries. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Such works are already established at Newcastle. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The honorable member must know that at Newcastle the Broken Hill Proprietary Company is practically undertaking nothing more than the manufacture of steel rails. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- That is not all it proposes to do. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The company may propose to extend its works. It is a thousand pities that we did not have those works established years ago, instead of continuing to send money overseas for thousands of miles of rails. I wish to prevent Australia getting into a state of sleepiness and sloth that will prevent us proceeding with the establishment of these works, even in war time. In Great Britain committees of various kinds have been formed for the purpose of assisting industries already established, and encouraging the establishment of others. We ought to have in Australia committees carrying out investigations of that kind. As far back as October, 1914, when **Mr. Fisher** was Prime Minister, I made a suggestion, on the motion for adjournment, that a committee should be appointed to investigate the possibility of establishing new industries in the Commonwealth. I knew then that we should be cut off from many countries that previously supplied us with various commodities; but if Australia will take advantage of this cutting-off and establish industries of its own, the war will not prove as great a curse as it otherwise will be. We ough"t to do what Great Britain and Canada are doing, and what- that little country in the East is doing, to capture the trade which the Huns once enjoyed. If we cannot do it now by means of a Tariff, we ought to adopt every other means open to us to found new industries in the Commonwealth. We could doin Australia with probably four or five steel works. For two or three years, or probably longer, after the termination of the war, we shall hardly be able to get a pound of steel from the other side of the world. There are hundreds of cities and towns in Europe to be rebuilt, and in their reconstruction steel will play a very important part. If Australia is not equipped to supply its own requirements in that regard, we shall be obliged to remain in the background for many years. It will be criminal neglect on our part if we do not do everything possible to have steel works established here. In regard to the financial statement, I understand that several of the principal items mentioned by the Treasurer will form the subject of separate Bills to be dealt with later. When those Bills come forward we shall have an opportunity of discussing the principles involved. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- Are you not going to say something now ? Do you not know your party wants wealth to be conscripted ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- When the proposals come forward separately, if they are not suitable I shall make my views known. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- But generally speaking! {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Generally speaking, there are items in the Treasurer's proposals with which I do not agree. In many cases the proposals do not go far enough. I believe we could have raised money in ways other than those suggested. I have thought all along that the war afforded an excellent opportunity to revert to twopenny postage in Australia. I could not see any reason for reducing the letter rate from 2d. to Id. at a time when the postal expenditure so largely exceeded the revenue, though I am aware that every Postmaster-General whose term of office preceded the change was in favour of it. Certainly we should go back to the old rate now. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr Pigott: -- Should we not lose revenue by doing so? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- No. The postage revenue for the financial year, which ended the 30th June last, was over £2,500,000, and I believe that, had the postage on letters that year been 2d. instead of Id., the Treasury would have received from £500,000 to £1,000,000 more. The honorable member must recollect that many more letters have been written and posted in recent years. The merchants of Australia use the post-office very largely, and, as I pointed out at the time, the various business enterprises of the country were given a very substantial bonus when the letter rate was reduced by one-half. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- The loss occasioned by the introduction of penny postage was £400,000. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- It must- be remembered that the postal revenue of Australia to-day is much greater than it was when penny postage was introduced. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Is not that partly due to the institution of penny postage ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- No. The business of Australia has increased, and I hope will continue to do so, and I think that the postal revenue would increase if the letter rate were again made 2d. We may need this increased revenue later, and I think that it should have been provided for almost at the beginning of the war. The right honorable member for Swan said this afternoon that a few persons in Australia were being called upon to meet the expenditure of the war, and that, so far as the masses of the people were concerned, they contributed very little, either directly or indirectly. The right honorable gentleman must know that the masses of the people, year in and year out, provide Customs and Excise revenue which, from the beginning, has formed a considerable part of the whole revenue of the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Yes; but that revenue is used to meet ordinary expenditure. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- It is estimated that the Customs and Excise revenue of the Commonwealth will amount this year to about £16,750,000. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I was referring to last year. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Last year it was a little more; close upon £17,000,000. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Only £2,000,000 of that was used to meet war expenditure. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The Treasurer has stated that something like £3,000,000 of revenue has been used to meet war expenditure. I am combating the right honorable member's assertion that the great masses of the people do not contribute much to the revenue of the country. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- The right honorable member meant the war expenditure. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- There would be a sad shortage if it were not for the revenue from the Customs and Excise duties, which are paid by the masses of the people. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I am quite aware of that. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am glad to hear the admission. The right honorable member should give the people credit for the millions of pounds that they contribute yearly to the revenue. Personally, I should like to see Australia self-contained, and employment given to her people by the establishment of industries of all kinds. To bring about such a condition, I would impose an absolutely prohibitory Tariff. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr Pigott: -- And crucify the workers I {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- A Free Trade idea that! Are they crucified in other Protectionist countries? In my opinion, the proper way for Australia to meet the extraordinary circumstances of the present time is to look after herself. I should like to see anti-dumping legislation introduced, so that no goods could come here unless they had been manufactured subject to certain conditions. Unfortunately, we are not establishing industries as we should do. The Prime Minister has appointed a Scientific Investigation Committee, some of whose work is probably very valuable, but. to my mind, wb are not taking advantage of the brains that we have in Australia, as we should do, to establish new industries. I should like to see something done immediately. The war has made it necessary to impose very heavy taxation, and the burden is likely to become so intolerable that the people will ask before long why is Australia the prey of so many taxing agencies. Is it worth while maintaining so many State Parliaments? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- This is the most heavily taxed country in the world. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Yes; and, in proportion to population, it supports more members of Parliament than any other country. Sensible people will be saying soon that it is time that some of these Parliaments were abolished. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- It is a wonder that we have lived so long. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The people are being roused, and will soon make their protest vocal, and effective at the ballotbox. The question that will be put to every parliamentary candidate - Commonwealth and State-will be: "Are you favorable to the continuance of so many Parliaments in a country that has a population of only 5,000,000?" We shall have to put the Constitutions of both the Commonwealth and the States into the melting pot, out of which, I hope, will come a powerful National Parliament, with, possibly, provincial assemblies to manage the domestic affairs of the States. The time has arrived when expenditure must be curtailed. Honorable members opposite complain that not enough work is given for the pay received, but I do not hear any of them asking why it is that each State has a separate Agent-General and a separate representative of the King. When Federation was established it was said that the State Parliaments must decrease to such an extent that the moneys thus saved would pay all the expenses of the Federation. Has that been so? On the contrary, the expenditure has gone up by leaps and bounds, and it is time the people looked into the matter, as I hope and trust they will. This would be one way of saving considerable sums of money, and avoiding much taxation. When the items come before us, I shall discuss them on their merits. There are some to which I can give my hearty approval, but there are others which I shall do my best to get amended, if not rejected for the substitution of others. I hope that the Government will not be spineless or limp in regard to the establishment of an arsenal In my opinion, they have been too hesitating and halting in the past. They have sufficient information now to justify them in making a start; and there must be much preliminary work before it is necessary to obtain a piece of machinery. When the war is over, the Government will be able to purchase the latest machinery for the purpose of turning out material, not only for the defence of Australia, but for the manufacture of articles necessary to many industries that they have established. {: #debate-37-s7 .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay .- I regret that the honorable member for Maribyrnong should consider it necessary to suggest that honorable members on this side have objection to the labourers of the Commonwealth. I have not heard any honorable member on this side for one moment suggest that the labourers in Queensland, or in Australia generally, are not quite equal to the labourers in any other part of the world. My own opinion is that the men here are quite competent to do well anything they undertake, if they only have the opportunity. In my own electorate some 250 locomotives have been turned out; and wherever these locomotives go - to South Australia, Victoria or elsewhere - they are pronounced to be the best on the roads. I quite agree with the honorable member for Maribyrnong that there are many things that ought to be done to help our industries, and provide more lucrative work here. The honorable member happened to mention that the development in the steel industry is not what it ought to be. In my opinion, the reason for that is that there is not sufficient protection on the manufacture of steel to enable the industry to be carried on successfully. Walkers Limited, of Maryborough, established large steel works for the purpose of turning out steel plant, but they were not able to use those works to their fullest capacity within about 50 per cent. If we had a little more protection we should have a large steel manufacturing industry in this country. As to locomotives, we now manufacture everything here with the exception of the tires, which, on account of the low protection it is found better to import. I feel sure that honorable members on both sides are alive to the fact that, if industries are established with sufficient protection, we can produce everything that can be produced elsewhere. Look, for example, at the enormous amount of wool there is in Queeusland and Australia generally. Does it seem fair that this wool should have to be sent away, with freight paid, to be manufactured abroad, and brought back, at the cost of further freight and other charges, when the cloth and other material could be turned out here as well as in any country in the world? I only hope that the day is not far distant when we shall have well-equipped factories for the purpose of converting a large portion of our wool into the manufactured article. I have to compliment the Treasurer on at last giving us some information regarding the sugar industry, for the question is a burning one at the present time. I should like the honorable gentleman to bear in mind that every month we are losing about onefourth of the whole output of the season. Up to the present time, the delay caused by the closing down which followed on the Dickson award, means a loss of onethird of the crop. That loss will affect not only the people of Queensland, but the people of the rest of Australia and the Treasurer. We have been told distinctly by the Treasurer that the Government price entails a loss of £2 per ton on the foreign sugar imported, after taking credit for the profit made on the Queensland sugar. If the industry is killed, or even if the sugar is not manufactured this season - and if it is, it will have to be by the 31st December - the Treasurer will find 'that, instead of having to import sugar at a loss of £2 per ton, he will have to face a loss of nearly £5. That will be a serious matter; and I appeal to the Treasurer and the House to take the question into serious consideration. The vast majority of the men affected are industrial workers, who, with land obtained on 'terms, have started growing in a small way; and they are now facing absolute ruin on account of the award. The effect of the imposition of the increased wages is so great that it is impossible for the industry to live and thrive. When the last MacNaughton award was made, about two years ago, it was considered that it would be difficult for the growers, unless they had normal seasons, to make money out of the industry; but when it is remembered that the new award means an increase of practically . 50 per cent, in wages over the rate fixed then, the effect upon the sugar industry can be seen. Young fellows of eighteen and over are to be paid £5 2s. per week for work that the Judge holds can be well done by young fellows of, that age. The Judge calculated that about forty men engaged in the industry came from Tasmania, forty from Sydney, and twenty from Brisbane. He put down £12 ls. as the cost of a man going- from Tasmania to Cairns and back to Brisbane. He allowed twenty-one days' travelling and lost time at 13s. 'per day, equalling £13 13s. He, deducted twentyone days' food provided on board steamer at 2s. 6d. per day, or £2 12s. 6d., leaving £23 ls. 6d., which is to be a tax upon the industry without the industry receiving a sixpence in return for it. He altered the previous award by abolishing the retention money, the effect of which will be that men may work till within a fortnight of the termination of the cut, and then leave without completing the harvest to take on some longer job, at great loss to the owner. He regarded the high cost of living as a reason for awarding higher wages to the men, but did not take it .into consideration when fixing the amount which the employer could charge for food provided by him. He ordered that if nine or more men wished it, the employer must provide food, and could deduct for it only 19s. per week. No less than seventy articles of diet are specified in the schedule for the men. It is clear that he did not take into consideration the fact that the higher cost of living would fall on the employer, because, if the schedule is to be supplied as set down, it cannot be done under 30s. a week per man. Consequently, another lis. must be added to the £5 2s. per week. It is such an extraordinary award that I am not at all surprised at the numerous telegrams I have received from various parts of Queensland telling me that they have shut down, and that there is no prospect of opening again, unless substantial relief is given. The additional cost to the producer is about £7 per ton. He is paid £18 a ton now for raw sugar. Only yesterday I received the following telegram from the Sugar Growers Union at Mackay : - >About one-third estimated total output of sugar now unable t'o be harvested owing cessation operations for past four weeks. Growers determined stand firm to bitter end, unless satisfactory . settlement sugar crisis secured. Every day now means ruinous loss to Commonwealth and community generally, owing sugar crops deteriorating. I am also informed that the executive committee are quite agreeable to have the matter referred to the Inter-State Commission. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- What will be the loss in production? {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- If no more cane is harvested this year the loss to Australia will be about £5",000,000. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Will not some of it stand over? {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- The honorable member ought to know that a lot of it stood over from last year on account of the drought. We produced then only 100,000 tons instead of 260,000. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- You have never produced 260,000 tons since Queensland nas been Queensland. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- We produced sufficient for the Commonwealth in 1907. I have been connected with the sugar industry since the first cane was grown in Australia, and have watched it minutely ever since. When I was in the Queensland Parliament, we calculated, after careful investigation, that when we passed the estimates for the Bobinda and Johnstone River mills those two additional mills would supply Australia with every pound of sugar that would be required in normal seasons. There are millions of acres of land in Queensland just as good as that already under cane, but it is of no use producing a ton more sugar than can be sold within the Commonwealth, because there would be a loss of £7 a ton in competing with cane grown in Java at a cost in wages per man of 4d. or 4½d. a day, as against 15s. 6d. a day in Southern Queensland and 17s. a day in Northern Queensland under the Dickson award. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- That was not the point the honorable member was making. He said they would lose £5,000,000, and I asked if none of that cane could stand over. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- Very little, because, owing to the drought preventing the cane being sufficiently large to cut last year, a great deal of it stood over until this year. If it stands over for another season the cane will deteriorate to such an extent that in some cases it will be absolutely worthless. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I put that. " **Mr. CORSER-** The Treasurer has remarked that during the war it will be again necessary to import foreign sugar to make up for the deficiency in our Australian production, and that war prices for foreign sugars may be so high that a loss of even more than *£2* per ton may have to be met out of the profits. Now, the less sugar produced in Queensland the more will have to be imported, and the more that has to be imported the greater will be the loss on the sugar production of Australia. I contend that the loss already is a severe one, because, owing to the war, the Treasurer will have to find some hundreds of thousands of pounds more than he otherwise would. The Government have been asked to invite the Inter-State Commission to inquire into and report upon the industry, and they are willing to do so provided the agreement that was entered into between the Commonwealth, the Queensland Government, the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, and the Millaquin Sugar Refining Company be not subjected to review. I am glad that the Treasurer has again taken up this matter, and I hope that he will at once refer it to the tribunal in question. A delay of another month will mean that at least onefourth more of this year's crop cannot be cut this season. I appeal to the Treasurer, without the loss of a single day, under the War Precautions Act, to suspend the Dickson award. If he does that, within a few hours .of the notification going forth, the sugar industry will be in full swing again and the 19,000 men engaged in it will be saved from ruin. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- Is there not another way of overcoming the difficulty ? {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- There is no other way. The Treasurer has stated that the Government are not in favour of increasing the price of sugar to the- consumer. We have asked that the profit that has been made on the sugar produced in Queensland shall go to the producer instead of being utilized to defray the cost of importing " black " sugars from overseas. The honorable gentleman has clearly pointed out that that money is required to minimize the cost of importations from abroad, and to enable the Commonwealth to sell at 3$d. per lb.. There is, therefore, no other means of overcoming this difficulty than that of suspending the Dickson award. I have never been an advocate of cutting down wages when an industry is well able to pay them. But the sugar industry is not able to pay the rates fixed under that award. I am certain, too, that there are many other industries in the Commonwealth which could not carry a wages bill of £5 2s. per man per week of forty-eight hours. At a time like the present, it behoves us to find as much employment as possible for our people, and to help the families who have sent" their boys to fight for the Empire, instead of imposing upon them a burden that is too grevious to be borne. The Government should be sympathetic towards the sugar-growers of Queensland, and should say to them that, in all the circumstances, the Dickson award cannot stand, and must be repealed. We must not forget that there are in the community quite a large number of business men, who have to support the sugar-growers practically for twelve months, and whose only chance of getting their accounts settled is when the harvest time comes round. Last year there was very little more than a third of the normal harvest; and this year the position will be worse. Thus, business men, as well as cane-growers, are threatened with ruination. If people are not able to secure interest upon their investments, it is scarcely necessary to point out that they will be called upon to pay less income tax than they otherwise would, and the Treasury will consequently suffer.' To-day there is between £11,000,000 and £12,000,000 invested in the sugar industry. ' There are 19,000 men directly interested in it, and many more thousands who are indirectly interested in it. I hope that the Treasurer will be able to tell us that we can save this industry from ruin, and succour the men in it who are suffering so keenly at present. In Bundaberg one firm alone - that of Young's - has turned out 200 draught horses because it will not cultivate its fields for next year's crop. The members of that firm say that if the Dickson award is to stand, the sugar industry is of no further use to them, and the sooner they utilize their land in some other way the better. We all know, too, that the possession of such an industry in the northern portion of Queensland has hitherto been regarded as a splendid thing from the stand-point of defence. In that portion of the Commonwealth we have tens of millions of acres of the best land in the world - land which will produce magnificent tropical products - and if this industry is to be closed down that area will become a menace instead of a benefit to Australia. If for no other reason, the sugar industry ought not to be permitted to crumble. I am sure that the Treasurer is sympathetically inclined towards those who are engaged in it. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am afraid that he does not care. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- I hope that that is not so. I trust that he will take immediate steps towards relieving the great disabilities under which they suffer. If nothing out of the way had happened to the industry this year, Queensland would have produced from 170,000 to 180,000 tons of sugar. If that production is stopped, and the Treasurer has to find the balance of sugar for us, and has to pay £4 or £5 at least per ton beyond what would enable him to sell at 3Jd., the problem will be a very serious one for him to solve. I do not blame the- men for asking for an amended award. Far from it. But I am convinced that they never asked for or expected to get what they did get. The Judge gave them" more than they asked for. As a result, he has driven out of the industry the men whom he sought to assist. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- I always knew there was a lot of exaggeration about the extravagant claims of the workmen. I must tell them that they should be more just to themselves in future. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- In every community there are men who are not as just as they ought to be. The honorable member's criticism is not fair, because there are many growers in Queensland who have paid good wages to their men from the first, and have never had an appeal against the wages they have paid. Before these awards came into existence many of them were paying higher wages than they are paying now. I personally know of instances of the kind. I should like honorable members to bear in mind that when a man starts work in the morning at canecutting, should a heavy storm come on and prevent him from continuing his labour, he receives 15s. 6d. per day in the southern parts of Queensland, although he may have done nothing, and 17s. per day in the north. If he works overtime in order to keep the mill going, he must get time and a half,, and if it is necessary that he should work on a Sunday he must get double time. One would not object if our competitors in other parts of the world were producing sugar under similar conditions, but we are up against the use of black labour in every other part of the world in which cane sugar is produced. Honorable members must see how difficult it is for us to grow cane sugar under these conditions in .competition with those growing it with coloured labour. No one would object to the wages we are asked to pay if the industry could afford them, but as it cannot afford them, I say it is far better in the interests of every one concerned that fair wages should be paid than that men engaged in the industry should be thrown out of employment. There is now a sorry sight to be seen in Bundaberg in my electorate. Hundreds of men are out of employment, and are receiving assistance for themselves and their families from the Queensland Government. The same condition of affairs exists all the way up the coast. The men thrown out of employ ment in the sugar industry have appealed to the Minister for Railways in Queensland to start railway works; but he is unable to do so, for the simple reason that there is no money available for the purpose. The very people whom the Judge, in making the award, sought to assist, are being cruelled in the same way as are the growers of the cane. The Prime Minister, when in London, tried to do something for the sugar industry. He tried to induce the Imperial authorities to take supplies of sugar from portions of the Empire growing cane sugar, instead of importing, as has been done in the past, beet-sugar, on which very heavy bounties are paid, from Germany and other countries. Before the present trouble came upon them, the sugar-growers of Queensland took fresh heart, when they heard of the efforts made by the Prime Minister in the Old Country, and looked forward to an extension of the industry in Northern Queensland. It was felt that, by that extension, numbers of white people might be settled upon the large areas of rich soil which are now, because they are .unoccupied, a menace to the Commonwealth. Unfortunately, the award to which I have referred forbids the hope of any extension of the kind. It has been said that Unification would be of some assistance to us, but let me say that only a Victorian could argue in that way. In the young States of Queensland and Western Australia the people have done a great deal to forward their development and settlement. In Queensland, with its huge territory of 425,000,000 acres, the people have constructed 1,100 miles more of railways than have been constructed in , any other State of the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- That is not correct. **Mr. -CORSER.** - If the honorable member looks up his ABC, I think he will find it is so. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I think the honorable member will find that the ABC takes the year 1915 for Queensland and 1914 for the other States. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- I point out that up to the time I left the Queensland Parliament we were spending over £2,000,000 a year in railway construction, and had been doing that for years. It was intended to carry that work on, and a large number of lines of railway are only partially completed, so that in future the comparison, instead of being to our detriment, will do to our advantage. Now, if Unification were adopted, Queeusland would be handing her railways and her land over to tho federal authorities. Victoria, on the other hand, has had the benefit of the sale of her down lands, and with the proceeds of such sales has constructed railways and other public works. In Queensland wo have 400,000,000 acres of unalienated Crown lands. That is an asset, and we do not wish to share it with any other State; we want to be allowed to proceed with our development along the lines best suited to our own country. We in Queensland know how to manage our own affairs, and we know, also, that very little sympathy is felt in many other parts of tho Commonwealth towards Queensland and Western Australia. If the people of the other States were to travel more, and thus realize the difficulties under which people in the northern State are working, they would better appreciate the efforts that are being made there to settle large numbers of people on fertile land under conditions that will enable them to live happily and contentedly. Unification is a principle that we in Queensland will fight to the bitter end, because when Federation was consummated thore was a guarantee that Unification would not follow. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Would you lead a revolution against it? {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr CORSER: -- Some honorable members have been revolting so much against their leaders of late that apparently they think everybody else who expresses an opinion againstany proposal must also be thinking of revolution. I will conclude by an earnest appeal to the Prime Minister to give us an assurance that the crisis in Queensland will soon be over, and that men may go on trying to earn a living for themselves during these war times. Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 9039 {:#debate-38} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-38-0} #### Conduct of Business {: #subdebate-38-0-s0 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
Prime Minister · West Sydney · ALP -- In moving - That the House do now adjourn, I desire to express the hope that honorable members will allow us to pass the Works and Buildings Bill to-morrow, and also a small measure to appoint en Assistant Commissioner of Taxation. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- He will want some assistance. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- Yes; one Commissioner will not be able to deal with the amount of taxation that we contemplate. However, I merely mention that in passing. I hope honorable members will so arrange that we may wind up the business to-morrow evening - the earlier the better. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 10.13 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 27 September 1916, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1916/19160927_reps_6_80/>.