House of Representatives
16 July 1915

6th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 5019

QUESTION

INCOME TAX

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– I ask the Prime Ministerwhether, before the House adjourns over any considerable period, he will bring down income tax proposals under which the taxation will fall as lightly as possible upon those least able to bear it, and with due weight upon those best able to bear it?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– It is not usual to anticipate taxation proposals, but there must be a war tax in addition to a war loan, and in regard to it the rule of taxation will be followed that the burden must be adjusted in accordance with the ability of the people to bear it, and in accordance with the benefits derived by taxpayers from their residence in this country. The matter will be. dealt with before the House adjourns over any considerable period.

page 5019

QUESTION

TESTING OF EXPLOSIVES

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs if steps have been taken to establish in Australia a testing station for explosives?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– As the honorable member knows, this matter has been under the consideration of the Government and of the two preceding Administrations. A report on the subject was recently re ceived from Mr. Wilkinson, upon which the Government determined to proceed with the construction of a testing station, but, as Great Britain has recently erected such a station on the most modern lines, it has been thought well to send one of the analyst’s staff to England to inspect what is being done there before we go any further.

page 5019

QUESTION

RECRUITING

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In view of comments that have appeared’ in the press, will the Prime Minister ascertain and inform the House what number of recruits have enlisted in each State, so that there may be no doubt about the proportional volunteering ?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I shall be no party to any comparison of the efforts of the States in regard to recruiting. Our responsibility is for the safety of the Commonwealth as a whole, and if any State or part of a State feels offended by what some other State or district is doing, it can easily alter the position by beating its rivals. All statistical information in the hands of the Defence Department will be made available to the honorable member if he chooses to ask for it.

page 5019

QUESTION

REFRE SHMENT-ROOM BAR

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

– I am informed that the House Committee has declined to confirm with the law of Victoria by instructing that the bar in the Refreshmentroom shall be closed at 9.30 p.m., and I therefore ask you, Mr. Speaker, if you willconsult with the President of the Senate with a view to taking a vote of both Houses on the matter?

Mr SPEAKER:

– Personally I have no objection to that being done. I shall confer with the President, and hear what he has to say on the matter.

page 5019

QUESTION

WAR COMMITTEE

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– As it appears from statements that have been made in. regard to the War Committee that is about to be appointed, that it is to have no parliamentary authority, no responsibility, and no initiative, will the Prime Minister provide some opportunity for the House to consider its utility and its functions ?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The statements embodied in the question are incorrect. The

Committeewill have the highest functions in the realm.It will be taken into the confidence of the Government in everything that concerns thewelfare and safety of the Common-wealth, and the Executive will be responsible for its action in regard to any advice the Committee may tender.

page 5020

QUESTION

SYDNEY FEMALE TELEPHONISTS

Mr MAHONY:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is ita fact that in spite of the assurance of the PostmasterGeneral to the contrary, the women telephonists in the General Post Office, Sydney, have been instructed to report for night duty?

Mr SPENCE:
Postmaster-General · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am not aware, but I shall make inquiries.

page 5020

QUESTION

SMALL ARMS FACTORY

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Minister for the Navy received reports concerning the second shift at the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow? Is it working satisfactorily ?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

– The Minister has informed me that the second shift is working satisfactorily, and that everything at the Factory isgoing on properly.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– What is the length of the two shifts now being worked?

Mr JENSEN:

– There are two shifts of ten hours each.

Mr HIGGS:

– In view of the fact that it has been proved that mechanics and other employees can do as effective work in eight hours a day as they can. do in ten hours, and at the same time keep more healthy and be able to work for a longer period, will the Minister of Defence open the doors as wide as possible to those mechanics in the Commonwealth who may be fitted to carry out the work that has to be donein the Small Arms Factory in preference to employing men ten hours a day permanently!

Mr JENSEN:

– The Minister of Defence is quite satisfied that he would rather have three shifts of eight hours than two of ten hours, and as he is keeping that object in view, no doubt it will be put into force an soon as there are sufficient men available.

page 5020

QUESTION

MUNITIONS OF WAR

Mr HAMPSON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– Has the Minister for the Navy noticed a statement by the members of the Bendigo Federated Mine Employees’ Association that the Coster field Antimony Company had accepted a contract from the British Government to supply all the antimony the company produced? Ifso, will the Minister bring under the notice of the Munitions Committee the necessity for securing Australian supplies of antimony for war purposes ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I have no objection to complying with the honorable member’s request.

page 5020

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– As it is generally understood that Parliament will shortly be adjourned, will the Minister of External Affairs make an announcement before the House rises as to who will succeed Sir George Reid as High Commissioner in London ?

Mr MAHON:
Minister for External Affairs · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The honorable member had better put that question to the Prime Minister.

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The honorable member may rest contented that he will be performing duties in this House before any step in that direction is taken.

page 5020

QUESTION

POSTAL DEPARTMENT

Mr. Anderson’s Report: Rates and Charges

Mr SHARPE:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– Has the PostmasterGeneral received a report from Mr. Anderson in connexion with his inquiry in the Postal Department? If not, will the Minister have the report laid on the table of the House when it is furnished?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– I have not received the report, but when it is furnished it will be laid on the table for the information of honorable members.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Before the Postmaster-General makes any drastic changes in the scale of rates and charges, will he lay them before the House for the consideration of honorable members?

Mr SPENCE:

– Some of the proposed changes will have to come before the House in the shape of a Bill. The only power that the Postmaster-General has to make changes is in regard to the telephone charges, but nothing has yet been decided in that regard.

page 5020

QUESTION

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Rejects : Trainees : Leave for Convalescents : alleged treachery: Insurance Premium.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– Has the Minister of Defence considered the advisability of keeping the addresses of men offering as recruits who are rejected, there being many thousands of able-bodied men who are rejected for trivial defects?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The proposal is a very good one, and I shall bring it under the notice of the Minister of Defence with a view to having it carried out.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The otherday I asked the Minister a question with reference to members of our Expeditionary Forces’ who are trainees under the Defence Act as to whether they would be compelled to attend night drills, and so on, on their return from the front. Has the Minister come to any determination on the matter?

Mr JENSEN:

– The question raised is a matter of policy which it is not considered desirable to finally decide until the termination of the war. All trainees who are members of the Expeditionary Forces are, of course, exempt from the universal training clauses of the Defence Act as long as they serve in the Australian Imperial Force. As regards trainees who are invalided from active service abroad on account of illness or wounds, the Minister has approved, as a temporary measure, of these trainees being not compelled to render the required personal service during the present year.

Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

– I desire to make a personal explanation in connexion with the statement I made here a week or two ago with regard to the A.M. P. Society charging an extra premium of £5 per £100- £10 on a £200 policy- on the -policy of a soldier at the front whose wife had been a day late in paying the premium. The statement was correct, and the society, after having investigated the matter, have returned the extra premium charged.

Mr JENSEN:

– The Leader of the Opposition asked me a question the other day with regard to recruits, on leaving the base hospital at Broadmeadows, being compelled to return to Seymour to obtain leave. Instructions have now been issued to the Officer Commanding at the base hospital empowering him to take any of the following three courses, when a patient is fit for discharge therefrom : - (a) Where the patient needs a period of convalescence and the O.C. is satisfied that he has a suitable home to go to, leave is granted to enable him to go home, by the O.C. in the base hospital; (b) where convalescence is needed, and the O.C. is not satisfied as to the suitability of the home, the patient is transferred to the Convalescent Depot at Geelong, till fit to resume duty; (c) if the patient does not need any convalescing period and is fit to resume duty forthwith, he is returned to camp.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister for the Navy in a position to make any statement in regard to the incident which was cabled about a German member of the Expeditionary Forces sniping his own officers?

Mr JENSEN:

– I had a consultation with the Minister of Defence in regard to this matter yesterday afternoon, and in accordance with the promise made a cable has been despatched upon the subject. We have not yet received a reply.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

-Do the Government propose to give to men who have failed to pass the medical test some tangible evidence of their having “volunteered, so that unwarrantable imputations that are often cast upon these young fellows by busybodies may be removed?

Mr JENSEN:

– I shall bring the honorable member’s question under the notice of the Minister of Defence.

page 5021

QUESTION

WAR TAX

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Prime Minister so frame the machinery for the proposed war tax as to provide for a proportionate contribution from Ministers of the Crown and members of Parliament?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I think I can relieve the mind of the honorable member by saying that nobody will escape the war tax.

page 5021

QUESTION

WAR CENSUS:

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · PROT; WAP from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know from the Attorney-General whether Mr. Knibbs, the Government Statistician, has made a report on the proposed war census, and whether he has recommended the course that has been followed ? If so, will the report be placed on the table?

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The Statistician has not made a report. He has had several interviews with me on the matter, but, on the policy of the proposal, he has not expressed any opinion, good, bad, or indifferent.

Mr SHARPE:

– Is it proposed to establish offices in the various capitals for the collection of the census, or is it the intention to utilize the services of the returning officers throughout the Commonwealth electorates?

Mr HUGHES:

– I explained in broad outline the intention of the Government in this regard. It is to take advantage of existing governmental machinery, whether that machinery be under the direct control of the Commonwealth, the States, or the municipalities. Particularly, we rely, in the first place, on the Post Office, and, in the second place, on the Electoral Department, which has at its disposal the most effective machinery for the purpose. Naturally, as this task is very difficult, we shall have to supplement these services from every other source available, including voluntary assistance.

page 5022

QUESTION

SUGAR PURCHASE

Mr.HIGGS. - Will the AttorneyGeneral inform the House whether the arrangement for the proposed purchase and sale of sugar by the Commonwealth has been completed ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– There is some difficulty in stating definitely when the new arrangement will come into force, but probably that will be on Monday next. The difficulty arises owing to our lack of power to deal with the refining side of the question. It is intended, however, as far as possible, that the new arrangement shall come into force on Monday. I beg to state, for the benefit of the public, that, although every effort will be made by the Commonwealth to retail sugar at 3d. per lb. in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, and Hobart, the considerations of freight are such that we fear we . shall not be able to sell it at that price in the ‘western States. I shall, however, do my best.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– May I ask the Attorney-General -

Mr Hughes:

– Do you want to buy a pound?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– No, because if I did I would go and buy it cheaper. What I wish to know is, whether there is any objection to laying on the table of the House a memorandum setting out exactly what has been done in connexion with the whole transaction. The House as yet knows nothing whatever about the details of the arrangements which have been made, and I think, in a public matter of this kind, it is entitled to know.

Mr HUGHES:

– The honorable gentleman is quite right to ask for such a memorandum, and the only reason why fuller information has not been given is that the details of the two transactions - with the Queensland Government and with the Refining Company - have not yet been completed in either case. I saw the general manager of the company the day before yesterday, and I had hoped at that interview to finalize the matter, but I did not succeed in doing so. The honorable gentleman must realize that the Commonwealth, in regard to the Colonial Sugar Refinery, is in exactly the same position as he himself would be. We have no power, and we have to treat with the company and make the best terms we can. As soon as the transaction is reduced to final form and put in the shape of a legal document, that document will be laid on the table.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– When will that be ?

Mr HUGHES:

– Probably in a day or two - next week.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Before the House rises for the proposed adjournment?

Mr HUGHES:

– Yes.

Mr GROOM:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– Will the AttorneyGeneral state whether the arrangements that are made will come before the House in the form of a Bill for enabling the purchase of the sugar in question from the Queensland Government to be made, or to sanction an appropriation out of the revenue forthatpurpose?

Mr HUGHES:

– I do not think the matter will come before the House in that way at all. It will be for the House to approve or disapprove of the transaction when it is completed. When it comes before the House it will be as a res gestae. There is no question of the appropriation of public moneys at all.

Mr Groom:

– How do you propose to finance it?

Mr HUGHES:

– We are moving in the realms of high finance. In high finance it is considered positively disgraceful to have any money at all.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The Stock Exchange is not “ in it “ with you.

Mr HUGHES:

– I have often found great difficulty in persuading a grocer to sell me 2 lbs, of sugar without my giving him the money, but I have had no difficulty in purchasing 140,000 tons of sugar without money.

Mr Gregory:

– Do I understand the Attorney-General to state that differential rates in the price of sugar will apply only to the Western State ?

Mr HUGHES:

– We shall endeavour to make the price uniform in the capital cities. Beyond that we are unable to go. It will be for the Food Supply Boards in the various States to determine what shall be the price outside the capital cities. I only want to say to the honorable gentleman that, owing to the rates of freight - and I understand that from Fremantle to Perth the freight is as much as 7s. 6d. per ton-

Mr Groom:

– No.

Mr HUGHES:

– I am only quoting the general manager of the Sugar Company.

Mr Gregory:

– You are wrong.

Sir John Forrest:

– I think you can get through freights to Perth.

Mr HUGHES:

– I may be wrong, but Mr. Knox assured me that that is the price his company has to pay for the river trip. Honorable gentlemen may know more about this than Mr. Knox, but I say I am only repeating what Mr. Knox told me.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to ask the Prime Minister, having regard to the fact that the money with which this sugar is to be paid for will come out of the funds of the whole Commonwealth, whether it would not be a fair thing for the freight charges to be distributed so as to give each State sugar at the same price ?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– That is not a bad idea, and if the honorable member for Parkes will only form a Socialistic Society on those lines I willjoin him.

Sir JOHN FORREST:

-I should like to ask the Attorney-General whether I understood him correctly to say that it is proposed to give preference to the five eastern States over Western Australia?

Mr Higgs:

– I rise to a point of order. It has been frequently ruled that when questions assume the nature of a debate Mr. Speaker shall intervene. I ask whether the time has not yet arrived for Mr. Speaker to intervene now?

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have frequently had to call attention to the fact that one question has led to the asking of about a dozen others on the same subject. This morning, I think about six questions have been founded on the one originally asked by the honorable member for Capricornia. When I drew attention to the earlier practice, the Government took the course of asking for notice of each question. However, if the Government is prepared to allow these questions to be asked as they are being now asked, I do not think that there is any necessity for me to try to curtail them.

Sir John Forrest:

– I do not think the gag should be introduced-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! Will the honorable member ask his question?

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– I only wish to ask the Attorney-General whether I was correct in understanding him to say that it is proposed to give preference to the five eastern States over Western Australia in regard to the price of sugar, and whether, in his opinion, that will be within the scope of the Constitution?

Mr HUGHES:

– I will answer the last part of the right honorable member’s question first. No constitutional question at all is involved in this proceeding. We are doing as we are, not by virtue of our powers under the Constitution, but by virtue of the Executive power of the Government as such, and we could act in the same way if there were no Constitution at all. As to the first part of the right honorable member’s question, I can only say that it is notproposed to grantpreference to any State, but it is proposed to treat this as a commercial transaction. If the right honorable gentleman will only realize that the distance increases as one passes from Queensland round the coast, he will understand that by the time Western Australia is reached a great deal more expense in freight charges will have been incurred than would have been incurred had the journey ended at Sydney.

Sir John Forrest:

– So it does when you get to Adelaide.

Mr HUGHES:

– The honorable gentleman knows perfectly well that the cost of freight and other charges must be added to the price of a commodity if things are to be dealt with on a commercial basis. Knowing that, how can he say that what is proposed is preference? I am astounded at him.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Will the services rendered by the Government in dispensing sugar to the sugar buyers of the Commonwealth rest upon a different basis from that upon which services are rendered, for instance, by the Post Office, under which, irrespective of distance or any other consideration, the same uniform charges are made in every State ?

Mr HUGHES:

– The honorable gentleman is very fecund of suggestion and idea, but I would refer him to the system adopted on our railways, which does not lend itself to the brilliant idea of the right honorable gentleman. If he wishes to travel to South Yarra - if he is not a member of Parliament - he has to pay one amount, but if he wishes to travel to Sydney the fare is a great deal more. It is on that basis, not on the basis of the Post Office, that we are carrying out this work.

page 5024

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH FOOD SUPPLIES

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– Will the AttorneyGeneral say whether, when the wealth census is being taken, he will also have a return made of the foodstuffs and other necessaries of life stored in Australia?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– This will be a return of wealth, and the honorable member must bear in mind that it will be a return of values, not of numbers or quantities. Other returns are being called for in regard to foodstuffs; these refer to quantities. The wealth census is only concerned with values, not with quantities.

page 5024

QUESTION

NAVAL BASES

Jervis Bay: Henderson: Flinders

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

With reference to the report of Sir Maurice Fitzmaurice regarding Jervis Bay as a naval base, and the statement therein regarding the absence of suitable stone for the breakwater -

Is he aware that there is a large quantity of suitable stone available on Bowen Island and the mainland convenient to where the breakwater would be constructed and a naval base, as well as ship-building yards, would be established?

Will he have a further report made upon this matter?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– As this matter refers in detail to the administration of the Naval Department, I have arranged with the Minister for the Navy to answer the question.

Mr BURCHELL:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. The number of workmen engagedat the Henderson Naval Base, also the number engaged at the Flinders Naval Base?
  2. The amount paid at each base separately for wages during the last available fortnight?
Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is - 1 and 2. Henderson Naval Base - 256 men, £1,471 13s. 2d.; Flinders Naval Base- 386 men, £1,75311s. 5d.

page 5024

QUESTION

NATIONAL FLAGS AND ADVERTISING

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Prime. Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is necessary for trading firms to obtain permission to use the Union Jack or the Australian Flag as trade advertisements?
  2. Whether the Government have the power to prohibit the use of the nationalflags in this way ?
  3. Whether, in view of the lavish use at present being made of the flags as trade advertisements, action will be taken to enforce some rule regulating the matter?
Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

  1. No.
  2. Under the existing law the Government have not the power to prohibit their use.
  3. The matter will receive consideration.

page 5024

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Employment of Wounded Soldiers:

Prisoners of War

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Prime-

Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether, in view of the early return of numbers of wounded and sick soldiers from Europe, consideration is being given by the Government to the matter of finding employment for those who have been rendered incapable of following their usual occupations, but are able to perform other duties?
  2. Whether it may be possible to instruct the Public Service Commissioner that no new appointments of a permanent nature are to be made to positions that can be filled by men who return partially disabled ?
Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

  1. This matter has already been receiving consideration.
  2. It is proposed to stop all permanent appointments to the Federal Service till six months after the war, of persons between the ages of eighteen and forty-five, and to give preference to soldiers when making such appointments.
Mr GROOM:

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether the Government has yet obtained a list of the names of the Australians who are prisoners of war in Turkey?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– No.

page 5025

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Clerical Division

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

asked the Prime Minis ter, upon notice -

Whetherhe will supply the following information : -

Average age of entry into the Clerical Division of the Commonwealth Public Service for five years period, 1909-1913?

Number of clerical positions open and number of -

persons who passed examinations from outside the Service in each State, and in each year separately for 1903 to 1914 inclusive?

Mr FISHER:

– The following replies have been furnished by the Public Service Commissioner : - 1. (a) Persons who were not already officers of the Public Service, 17.6 years.

  1. Persons who were already officers of the Public Service, General Division, 22.4 years.

    1. The following statement shows the number of examinees both from inside and outside the Service, and those who passed during the years 1903 to 1914 inclusive : -
For all practical purposes the number of clerical positions open may be taken as equivalent to the number of passed candidates, viz., 2,644. {: .page-start } page 5026 {:#debate-19} ### WAR CENSUS BILL {:#subdebate-19-0} #### Second Reading Debate resumed from 15th July *(vide* page 4987), on motion by **Mr. Hughes** - >That the Bill be now read a second time. {: #subdebate-19-0-s0 .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- We are in a somewhat unique position in regard to the consideration of this measure, since no argument calling for any detailed reply has been advanced from either side. There have been only two adverse criticisms - one from each side of the House - levelled against the Bill. The right honorable member for Swan had some comments and some objections to offer. He seemed to speak of wealth as something so sacrosanct that it ought not to be touched. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I said nothing of the kind, but that does not matter to the honorable member. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- No, but he has got it intoHansard. Mr.PARKER MOLONEY . - The honorable member for Parkes has no right to make such an insinuation. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Quote what I did say. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- According to yesterday's newspapers the right honorable member in discussing the Bill said, " I object, at all events." {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- To what did the right honorable member object? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- He objected to the proposed tabulation of the wealth pf the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I said it was unnecessary, since the information was available. Why misrepresent me? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I have no desire to misrepresent the right honorable member, but the criticism in which he indulged certainly left in my mind the impression I have stated. He said that the tabulation was unnecessary, and advanced that argument with the object of showing that the Government should not endeavour to make any such tabulation of wealth as was proposed. Even if, as he contended, some of this information is already to be obtained from the official statistics, there can be no harm in supplementing it in the way now proposed. The honorable member for Brisbane, from this side of the House, has indulged in a stronger criticism of the Bill than has any other member. I gathered from his speech that he feared that the proposed manhood census meant conscription. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- No; compulsory service. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- That is a distinction without a difference. I am pleased to have the testimony of the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General that the manhood census for which this Bill provides does not mean anything in the nature of conscription. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- It does not. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- That is a definite statement. While I am pleased to have such an assurance, I think we can all realize that there may come a time when conscription will in justice have to be resorted to. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That would have to be done by fresh legislation. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- Quite so. I am certainly opposed to conscription for what the honorable member for Capricornia has described as foreign service; but if this war develops, as many fear it will, so as to directly reach Australia {: .speaker-L77} ##### Mr Hampson: -- This registration will then be useful. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -Yes. In that event we should want every man in this country to defend our own shores apart from conscription or anything else. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Does not the honorable member think that we are defending our own shores in Gallipoli at the present time ? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I do. I am now dealing only with the argument advanced by the honorable member for Brisbane that it would be time enough for us to "put up the umbrella" when the rain came. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- It is wise to carry an umbrella on a cloudy day. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- If a man has to walk half a mile in the rain to obtain an umbrella, he is likely to be wet through before he secures it. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- But we have the umbrella ready at the present moment. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- That is not so. Our official statistics may give information concerning the number of men employed in engineering and other trades, but they furnish no reliable information as to their ages, their health, and as to numerous other matters concerning which inquiry is to be made in connexion with the manhood census. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- The matter of health cannot possibly arise until the time for service arrives. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- Is it not better to be prepared? Following the honorable member's argument to its logical conclusion, instead of having one of our own vessels to sink the *Emden,* we should have waited until our shores were attacked by her before proceeding to build a warship. The proposed census will lead to the tabulation of the manhood, the wealth, and the resources of Australia; better fit us to meet any emergency that may arise. There has been some hint of objection to the proposed tabulation of wealth. The honorable member for Corangamite said very truly last night that many people of wealth in this country are giving, and giving generously. I am prepared to say that there are many who, in that respect, are doing their duty nobly, and who perhaps are not able to go to the war. On the other hand, there are many who have equally as much wealth and are not doing their fair share. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- A man in my district who possesses a quarter of a million pounds has not given a cent yet. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- There are men volunteering to-day whose worldly possessions are such that in the colloquial phrase when they have their hats on their roofs are on. Those men are making the greatest sacrifice possible by laying down their lives for their country. Those who survive the campaign may return minus a leg or an arm, and compared with the sacrifice they are making, it cannot be said that those who have the greatest share of the wealth of the country are doing their duty. The real benefit of a tabulation of wealth will be in the fact that we shall be able to compel those who have wealth and are not doing their duty, to do as much as those others who are already doing their duty. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- How will you differentiate between those who are doing their duty and those who are not? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- All we can ensure is that the man who is shirking his duty will be compelled to do his fair share. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- But the man who is already doing his fair share will have to pay up also. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- That may be so, but the man who is now doing nothing will be made to do something, even though incidentally the other man is obliged to do a little more than his fair share. We must reach the fellow who is doing nothing. Several members of this House have been asked why they do not go to the front. When this tabulation is made every man will be required to go in his order; at any rate, if he is not compelled to go, his duty will be clearly shown to him. I have seen men responding to the call who have great responsibilities towards wives and families, and it was no uncommon thing during the recruiting campaign last week for women to ask me after the meeting to try to persuade their husbands not to go to the war, because there were younger men without responsibilities who could go and were not volunteering. After this tabulation every one of us will know when our duty arises, and at what time and in what order we should come forward. The honorable member for Fremantle read a letter last night in which he had notified the Minister of Defence that he had offered his services with the Expeditionary Forces, but having been rejected for active service he was prepared to place the best that was in him at the disposal of the Empire in whatever work the Government might demand of him. I think every one of us is prepared to make that offer to those in authority. I am, and if my health would permit and I thought I could be of most use in the trenches, I would be there. Failing that, my services are at the disposal of the Empire wherever and in whatever way they can be best utilized. In saying that, I feel I am expressing the sentiments of every honorable member of this Parliament. The interjections hurled at public men in regard to their not having gone to the war are very cheap. There is no public man in this country who has not a full realization of what his duty is in these times. But as one representing a country constituency, I know that since the commencement of the war my labours have increased 200 or 300 per cent. One would infer from this cheap criticism that members have nothing to do but recline in their seats in this chamber. I wish that some of our critics could realize the new responsibilities that have been thrown upon a great many of us. There have been duties arising out of this war which have often kept me at work till one o'clock in the morning, and I have been glad) that I am able to be of some service.. Those who have sent sons and husbands to the front are anxious to know about them, and a member of Parliament can iu a hundred ways do much to make the lot of those at the war and . in camp easier, and the burden of those who have given up their menfolk lighter to bear. The object of the Bill is to organize and tabulate our resources in manhood and wealth. The Leader of the Opposition left an impression on my mind that he was somewhat opposed to tabulation of wealth, for which he said there was no precedent. I have wondered 'if the honorable member had ever read of the Doomsday Book compiled by order of William the Conqueror. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928 -- You are looking a long way back. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I have always told you that all of you went round and backward. You are progressing now towards William the Conqueror. There is no doubt that the party opposite is a party of progress. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I shall take the right honorable member further back and prove to him that the fighting strength of the children of Israel at the time of the exodus was ascertained by a count similar to that we are now proposing, and yet the honorable member says there is no precedent for such a tabulation. We know that in 1753 a Bill of this character was introduced into the House of Commons by a private member, and in 1800 it became law. In the German Empire, ever since its foundation, there has been a quinquennial tabulation of the manhood. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928 -- But the Germans have straight out conscription. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- They have, but they also tabulate wealth and property. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir William Irvine: -- What does it matter whether there is or is not a precedent for what is now proposed ? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- The Leader of the Opposition said that there is no precedent for what is proposed, and I am showing that that is not so. The splendid organization of the powerful empire against which we are fighting is an excellent example of the value of what the Government now ask us to sanction. The German Empire, because of its organization, can lay its hands on the men best suited for agricultural pursuits, on those best suited for engineering pursuits, and on those best suited to serve in -the trenches. It has tabulated the abilities and numbers of its people, and can choose those whom it needs for any particular work. If we had followed its example - not for the purposes of conscription {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- Why is the honorable member afraid of conscription? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I would not be afraid of it under certain circumstances. If the fight comes to Australia, we must have conscription. {: .speaker-L77} ##### Mr Hampson: -- The British Navy must bo wiped out before the fight can come to Australia. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- Like the majority of honorable members, I do not think that conscription is necessary at the present time. But we do not know what may eventuate, and if we should happen to require our fullest fighting strength, the tabulation proposed will enable us to lay our hands on the right men. What is now proposed will, when carried out, organize us as our enemy is organized. Her organization has been proceeding since 1751. Shortly after Germany took Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark she began to make the Kiel Canal. While the Canal was under process of construction, Germany was doing what we are now thinking of doing, and was not completely ready for war until last year, when the Canal was finished. It is a blot on the statesmanship of Great Britain that the island of Heligoland was given to Germany in exchange for the island of Zanzibar. If Great Britain still held Heligoland, the Kiel Canal would to-day be practically useless to Germany. Until the proposed organization is carried out we shall not be iu a position to offer the effective check to German encroachment that I hope we shall soon be able to offer. The Bill is a worthy addendum to what Australia has already done in this titanic struggle. It was a little disappointing^ find, a few weeks ago, that a good many people were ready to throw cold water on Australian efforts. That criticism was not good. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- From the beginning of the war our people have been volunteering in greater numbers than could be handled by the Defence Department. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- In view of that fact, it is not fair to belittle the efforts of this country. Three weeks ago Australia had trained and equipped for *he front 85,000 men. {: #subdebate-19-0-s1 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member will not be in order in speaking of the work of the Defence Department. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I wish merely to add that if Canada had done proportionately what we have done, she would have raised and equipped 175,000 men instead of only 115,000 men. Last night the honorable member for Robertson suggested the employment of boys in the harvesting of the large crop that we all hope for and anticipate this coming season, and I should, therefore, like to read a letter published in this morning's *Argus,* in which a practical farmer deals with the suggestion. The writer says - Commenting upon the suggestion that boys should bo used in order to assist with the harvest - - {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is now going beyond the scope of the Rill. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- It is proposed to make a tabulation which will show what men can be used for agricultural work, what men can be used for the manufacture of munitions, and so oh. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member may deal with, that proposal, but he may not discuss the work of individual classes of men. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I Welcome the proposed tabulation, because I think that it will assist harvesting by enabling our farmers to take advantage of the services of volunteers who have been rejected on account of bad teeth or other physical defects. I do not think that much would be gained by employing school boys. This is . the opinion of a practical farmer on the subject - In these clays- of up-to-date farming, most of the work at harvest time is done by large tennis of horses yoked into harvesters cif large size. The successful handling of this machinery oan only be done by men trained to the work, and I fail to see how any serviceable help can be given by the class of men **Mr. Gilbert** mentions, however willing they may be As a farmer, the only way I can see that this help could be availed of is in stooking sheaves after *a* binder, and my experience of town youths in the harvest field has shown me that the long hours and hoary work is altogether too great a trial, and the inevitable result is blistered hands and an overpowering sense of weariness resulting in complete failure in most cases. I indorse those statements, and one of the reasons why I welcome the Government proposals is that I think they will enable us to lay our hands on the class of men who can help the farmers, who, in many cases, have sent their own sons to t-he war. The Prime Minister said at the beginning of the war that if the last man and the last shilling were required they would be given, and the proposed tabulation will enable us to lay our hands on the last man and on the last shilling, and- to employ them effectively. It has been said that those who possess wealth merely hold it in trust for the rest of the community. If we are defeated in this war, we lose everything. It is a case of " all in." Consequently we must have some way of getting at the wealth and belongings of every person. But some of the information which is asked for seems to me unnecessary. Citizens are to be asked to state their stock in trade, and the value of their furniture and Per_sonal and household effects. That information, I think, is not necessary. We must have expedition, but if unnecessary details are asked for there must be delay. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- Information regarding the value of household possessions is obtained in all countries where there is a wealth tax. ' {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- To' my mind, the information is not needed by us, and its collection will cause delay. Furniture is necessary, it is something that a man cannot do without; it is not a luxury. Of course the position is very different when we come to speak of effects which really come under the heading of luxuries; and if the return were confined to these it would be understandable. I fear, however, that a tabulation of household furniture and other necessaries of life will cause considerable delay. There is another point worthy of attention. I fear, though perhaps my fear is not well founded, that there will be a danger of the timid sections of the community being victimised by what might be called agents - though they are sometimes called ' sharks ' ' - who are everlastingly trying to make profit out of their fellows. There is a possibility that people may be approached by such men, and warned of the penalties that may be imposed for mistakes in the returns, with the result that many will be induced to pay fees in order to have the work done for them, as took place when the income tax was first introduced. I have had letters from shire secretaries, ministers of religion, and others iri mv electorate offering to place their services at the disposal of the Government in the work of carrying out the census; hut there are isolated places where people may be approached in the way I have indicated, and fees earned in a way that must be condemned. I suggest that the Government should enter into some arrangement with the State authorities, so that the services of shire secretaries, clerks of court and petty sessions, school teachers, the police, and so forth, might be utilized, even if a small fee had to be paid in return for the work. {: #subdebate-19-0-s2 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Surely they would do such work without fee. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- i think they would; but if the services, of such officials are to be utilized, the fact ought to be made known to the public generally. This measure, with very few exceptions, has my entire indorsement, because it does something to place us on an equality with our great enemy. {: #subdebate-19-0-s3 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- ' There is no doubt that both sides of the House are in accord with the general principles of the Bill, and I should not have occupied time in discussing it further were it not that I desire to make one or two suggestions. It was my intention on a previous occasion, when I was not permitted to conclude my remarks, to outline what I believed was necessary in the way of organization, not only here, but in every part of the Empire, to meet the extraordinary crisis with which we find ourselves confronted to-day. This Bill goes a long way towards meeting some of the ideas which were then floating in my mind, though in some respects, it does not go to the full extent I should like to see adopted now and at once. We must not forget that this measure, in common with others in other parts of the Empire, is the direct consequence of our full realization that we are fighting a nation so closely organized as to give it an altogether unfair advantage over other nations not so well prepared. It is impossible for us at the present time to carry the organization of our national resources too far. I realize as well as anybody that the British race objects to regimentation of any sort. We object to compulsion ; we do not like to be put into water-tight compartments and told to do this or that. It is opposed to every ideal of that freedom which has been granted to us by suffering and effort spread over many centuries. But I do not care how far our liberties are encroached on at this time, for a period, if we can secure those liberties for ourselves in the future, and for those who will follow us for all time to come. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- No matter if it means conscription ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do not mind how far we go in infringing those liberties at the present time provided we can thereby secure those liberties in the future. I am not afraid of conscription. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- That is restraining liberties instead of increasing them. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am not afraid of conscription if it becomes necessary; in fact, I think that under this Bill power should be taken in one direction of an absolutely compulsory character. What I mean is, that in certain industries we should compel certain men to stay at home and not go to the war, and that that process of compulsion should be carried out at once. There is no doubt that we are now losing valuable material ; and I" am certain we are reducing the effective force of this country by sending into the fighting line men who are urgently required for other purposes in Australia. I recognise and admire the sacrifices which these men are making,, and the spirit which prompts them, but they would be rendering greater and more effective service by staying at home. Before making the one or two suggestions I have in my mind, I should like to say a word or two about the second schedule. The Bill evidently has two purposes, one of which is to obtain to some extent a registration of our male population between certain years, in order to get some idea of how many we have effective for the fighting line and other purposes, while the other purpose is to arrive at some approximation of our resources and wealth. It would have been a great benefit to the House and the country if the Government had seen fit to announce at once and frankly what their intentions are - why they are taking this census of wealth, and in this .particular form. I do not know what the intentions of the Government are - nobody seems to know - but I can see no particular good in a tabulation of the actual wealth of the community unless it is intended in some way to directly levy on that wealth. I would not be one to raise the slightest objection to those who are gifted with great wealth paying a fair share towards the enormous expenses of the war. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- We want the " widow's mite " as well, you know I {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do not mean to suggest that all classes will not be called upon to- contribute; it may be a few shillings in some cases, and thousands of pounds in others. I believe that, whether we appeal to the comparatively poor or the wealthy, we shall, with very few exceptions, have the readiest response; but I cannot see what good can be done by getting in tabulated form a census of the actual wealth held, unless it is proposed to levy directly on that wealth, and reduce the actual capital held by the people. If the idea of the Government is simply to levy on the product of wealth - that- is the income derived from it - they could get all the information they require without the great expenditure of time and money that must be involved in taking this census. In many cases - my own, for instance - it will be a very simple thing to put on paper the actual wealth I hold, but it will be a very different matter for others in the country. And when the information has been tabulated at great cost, it will take the Government Statistician a long time to deal with it. If the intention of the Government be to levy on the actual wealth held by the community, and not on the product of that wealth, I venture to say they will do a great deal more harm than good. Once we commence to attack the actual capital in the country we shall find that a great deal of it will "disappear. We shall destroy in a great measure the resources of the country which are used for the employment of labour, and destroy, without gaining any benefit,, a large proportion of the wealth itself. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Why these alarmist sentiments ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am simply endeavouring to show, in no alarmist way, that if we attempt to levy directly on the capital resources of the country it must have the effect I have described. When taxation does come, as we all realize it must, it should be on the actual product of capital itself;- and if that were the idea, all the necessary information could "be obtained without going to the expense of the proposed tabulation. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- Would you make no exception during war time ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- War time makes no exception to the economic rules which govern us. Honorable members, I trust, recognise, as I do, that after all is said and done, the wealth of our country rests on our system of trade. You cannot touch that system by taxing the actual capital without bringing the whole fabric tumbling down to earth like a pack of cards. All that can be done effectively, and all that the Government should attempt to do is to levy upon the actual productive wealth of the country - upon the produce of the country's resources. That can be done without going to anything like the expense that the Government propose to incur in taking this wealth census. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- Your proposal can be covered by an income tax. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Exactly, and I think that is the right way to go about it. If you attempt to tax other than the income which is the result of the capital invested - if you attempt to levy upon the capital itself - the result must be disaster. The moment you attempt to do that everything will be thrown into a state of flux. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- You can do what, you like with the manhood of the country, but you must not interfere with the wealth ! Is that the honorable member's argument? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is not my argument at all. I say that the rich must pay. Everybody recognises that. Every class in the community must pay its tribute, be it more or less, towards the conduct of this great struggle. What I am contending is that when honorable members proceed to impose taxation let them tax the product of the country's wealth, and not the actual capital. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Would you pay no attention to the potential wealth ? What about hoarded wealth - unoccupied land, and so on ? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- You can deal with that under the land tax. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I dare say it would be quite right if a man had £5,000 stored away in his stocking, and refused absolutely to use it, to resort to other measures. There would be some justification for the Government saying that such a man should contribute a .certain proportion, of his hoard. But I heard one honorable member - I forget who it was - when speaking on this measure last night, refer to- the fact that a large amount of money is held on fixed deposit in the banks. He argued that this money was not being properly used, and that, therefore, the Government should come along and use a certain portion of it. To that argument I would point out that, although the original owners of this money are only getting 3 or 3£ per cent, interest on it, the banks themselves are using the money again and again. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- Just the same as money in the Savings Ranks is turned over five or six times. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Of course, it is. One man may be getting 3^ per cent., but some one else is using the same money, and getting 4 per cent, on it; whilst a person may be using the same money in a still further direction, and getting 5 per cent. It cannot be said that, simply because money is deposited by the original owner in a bank at 3 J per cent., the money is not being used. Money deposited in this way is used right throughout the whole trade and commerce of the country, and that is why I urge honorable members to be careful in any contemplated taxation not to impose the tax upon other than the produce of the country's capital resources. I do not care how heavy the tax is. It will have to be heavy. We all recognise that. The rich must pay in common with the rest of the community - and I believe that, with very few exceptions, everybody will be willing to pay cheerfully. It is because of all this that I believe that the wealth census, if taken in the manner that the Government contemplate, will be unnecessary. I would like to see it taken in quite a different way, and I believe the information the Government desire could be got much more cheaply , and when the actual taxation is imposed it could be imposed much more* effectively, if other methods were employed. The matter, however, is one for the Government to determine. The responsibility for what steps are taken must eventually rest upon them. That is why I regret that the Government when bringing down this measure were not perfectly frank with the House and with the country in that they did not say exactly what was contemplated, or explain the reasons that induced them tb call for a census of wealth in this particular form. With regard to the registration of individuals, I do not think the Government are going far enough. One has only to look at the schedule to see that the Government's chief object is to ascertain the number of men actually fitted for the firing line. That seems to be the one underlying idea. While I would not discount for a single moment the almost stupendous efforts that Australia has put forward up to the present time, and while I admit that the fullest tribute must be paid to those who have so grandly come forward in their country's service, no one can but admit that Australia has not yet given of its manhood to the same extent that the Old Country has. We have a long way to go before we do that. I am inclined to think that, owing to the distance that separates us from the actual scene of conflict, it will not be possible for us to give our full quota of men. But there are many other things that we can do. A great deal is wanted besides men in this war. We want material; we want munitions. As this census has to be taken, and as the expense must be incurred , I think the Government could very well have gone a little further in the matter by endeavouring to ascertain how far it is possible to organize certain particular industries. In an indirect way, no doubt, the Government will get information on that point, but I think they could get a great deal more than they will get, and the value of the information would be infinitely greater, if they set to work to obtain direct schedules affecting certain trades. Take, for instance, the textile industry. There are people working in various parts of Australia who have been trained in the textile industry, but who are not now engaged in that industry,. . just as there are men who have been engineers, but who are following some other occupation. The' schedule as contemplated in this measure will not result in full information on that point. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Yes, it will. One question asks an individual what he is capable of doing, and what his past life and occupation have been. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I know it does. But what I urge is that, in regard to industries directly connected with the war,, there should be separate schedules. It would incur very little additional expenseor time to issue a special schedule with a special set of questions, and I think such a schedule would lead to the organization of these industries very much more rapidly than is possible under the Government's scheme. It is a matter of common knowledge that our woollen mills are all working at high pressure, and it is also a matter of common knowledge that their great difficulty is not one of material. It is also quite possible that a good deal of labour that might be utilized in these mills at the present time is not being utilized. We do not know where it is. We cannot find it. -The people who are carrying on the woollen industries cannot find it. Here is a golden opportunity, ready to our very hand, to come in contact with every individual in the Commonwealth capable of working in a woollen mill. Why should we not get that information? Similarly, in the engineering industry, particularly in that portion of it concerned with the manufacture of munitions, it is possible that large numbers of people are scattered about the length and breadth of the Commonwealth who have been employed on that particular class of work, and whose services would be valuable now. Here we have an opportunity of finding out where these people are, and of saying to them as our organization extends, "We want you to go to such-and-such a factory." Why not take advantage of the census to do that? . Again, in regard to the industries directly connected with the equipment of troops, we should endeavour to find out as quickly as possible every individual in Australia who can assist. That information can only be obtained by the issue of additional schedules. To endeavour to pick out information such as I have in mind from the schedules" that are proposed will be a Herculean task. It will occupy a very long time, and will not produce anything like the effective result the proposal I suggest would bring about. I do not want to take up .the time of the House any longer in discussing this matter. All I want to say is that, so far as the Bill goes, I believe the idea underlying it is right, and it will have my full support ; "but I suggest, in regard to the wealth census - without knowing what is in the Government's mind - that it is quite possible that we are spending a lot of money unnecessarily, and for which there will be no adequate return. Whatever else we do at the present time, we ought not to do that. In regard to the other schedules, I think they do not- go far enough. There is certain information which we should obtain rapidly which these schedules will not obtain. I hope the Government will take some further action in the direction I have indicated. {: #subdebate-19-0-s4 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert .- Knowing the anxiety of the Minister in charge of the Bill to get it through, I shall not be very long in what I have to say; but as I intend to sound a note that has not been sounded hitherto, I think I am justified in saying a few words, so as to put forward my own position clearly. In the first place, I wish to say that neither this Parliament as a whole, nor the members who sit on one side or the other, have shown very much courage in dealing with the present situation. I might use even a more' forceful, though, perhaps, it would be an impolite,, description. We have been just nibbling at thismatter the whole time {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- We have not done a solitary thing. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- I do not think we have made adequate use of the powers we already possess. Some time ago I introduced a Bill into this Chamber of a very definite character. It referred to the subject of Unification, at which we are now merely nibbling by way of the proposed referenda. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- I quite expected your intervention, sir. In introducing, this Bill, the Government are now nibbling at conscription, whereas I entirely favour the principle of conscription. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- Is that because the honorable member is over the age limit? {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Not at all. A little, while ago I proffered my services to the Waverley Rifle Club, but, after glancing at me, the officer to whom I made the offer, said, "It is unnecessary to ask for your birth certificate; it is evident that you are above the age at which we could take you." Then again, some weeks ago I placed my services at the disposal of the Prime Minister, pointing out to him that I was quite capable of doing some of the work now being performed by men who are going to the front. I am physically as fit as many younger members of this House, and am willing to do my share in the defence of the Empire, so that the interjection made by the Minister of External ' Affairs was a most ungenerous one. The honorable member for Indi has suggested the possibility of the war being carried to our own shores. In that event I should be as willing as any man to shoulder a rifle. The war situation is not altogether what we should wish it to be, and should this country ever be invaded, then every man, no matter what his age, will have to take up his rifle in defence, not only of his home, but of that which is still dearer to us, the honour of our womanhood. I served eleven years in the Citizen Forces, and enjoyed the reputation of being a good shot. From the first year I wore the marksman's badge, and I am glad to say that my sight is still excellent. I suggest to the Government that, instead of nibbling at conscription, they should at once declare for it. "Do it now " is a good business motto. {: .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr Chanter: -- The honorable member's services mightbe utilized as a drill instructor. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Quite so. Having served eleven years in the Citizen Forces, I think I could help in that direction. The recruiting campaign now taking place in Victoria and spreading to the other States is likely to lead to utter chaos. We have had in Victoria a boom in recruiting - a boom in other directions is not unknown here - and I am afraid that this recruiting boom will be followed by a slump. The number of men now offering their services as the result of this boom is so large as to embarrass the Defence Department, and the slump which I fear will follow is likely to be equally embarrassing. With conscription in force, order would take the place of chaos. The difficulty of providing equipment and camp accommodation for the men who are offering would be removed as the result of the organization which conscription would insure, and there would be an end to all irregular methods. If the services of 1,000 men were required next week, the Minister, with such a. system in operation, would know exactly where to obtain them. He could call in the men in the numbers actually required, from time to time, making provision, of course, for the percentage of men likely to be rejected because of physical disability, and in this way all embarrassments would be removed. In the absence of the Minister in charge of the Bill, I appeal to the Minister of External Affairs, who is the most bellicose man in the Cabinet, to put this view before his colleagues. I believe that the AttorneyGeneral is entirely in sympathy with it, but, unfortunately, neither party in this Parliament has had the courage to declare boldly for conscription. The honorable member for Indi suggested that it would be time enough to " put up the umbrella " when the rain came. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I said quite the opposite. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Did not the honorable member say that he was not in favour of conscription? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- I said that if the war were carried to our own shores we should be justified in adopting conscription. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- We need to be prepared for such an emergency, and how could we be better prepared than by adopting conscription ? The very strongest argument which the honorable member was able to advance in support of this Bill was that it would enable us to prepare, as Germany had prepared. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- We are proposing to do that. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Does the honorable member seriously suggest that the mere taking of a manhood census is all that is necessary in the way of preparation? This Bill practically proposes nothing more than was done in connexion with the census of 1911. It will certainly give us information as to the number of men who can serve their country, and where they may be found; but it will do nothing to provide for their training or equipment. What we need is to have men ready to go into the firing line at twenty-four hours' notice. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- Why is conscription necessary ? In what respect has the present system broken down? {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- It has broken down in the sense that while many men have volunteered, others who are equally fit to serve at the front have failed to come forward. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- The honorable member does not think that the present system is a fair one? {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- I do not. I say, " All honour to those who have come forward," but some compulsion is, necessary in the case of those who, having no responsibility to keep them back, are yet unwilling to volunteer. There are thousands in that position. Last Sunday morning, while strolling along Beaconsfield Parade, I overheard a party of eight or nine young fellows, whose ages would range from twenty to twenty-five years, discussing the war, and one after the other said that he did not propose to volunteer, since he believed that his services would be more useful at home. It is quite possible that these young men, and others like them, are rendering useful service in their own country, but the point that I wish to emphasize is that with conscription in force the work they are doing could be carried out by older members of the community, like the honorable member for Wimmera and myself, who are not competent to go into the firing line. Further, there are households from which several men have been taken; again, there are others from which none have been taken. Under conscription discrimination would be shown, and a just proportion taken from every household. I am the only member of this House who has declared for conscription. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- I think a few have gone pretty close to it. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Some honorable members suggest that it is not necessary for us to introduce conscription until it has been adopted in the Old Country. As a matter of fact, the Registration Bill - a measure similar to that now before us - has not yet been passed by the British Parliament. I do not think it has gone beyond the first reading stage in the House of Commons. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is before the Lords. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- My reply to those who say that it will be time enough for us to adopt conscription when Great Britain does so is that possibly if conscription had been in force in the Old Country some years ago the present war would not have occurred. It was because of Britain's unpreparedness that this war came upon us. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- Britain has always been regarded as the leading naval power. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Yes; but so far the services of the navy have not had to be fully exercised. I would remind honorable members that in respect of many reforms we have not waited for a lead from the Old Country. Is it not true that for many years we have been ahead of England ? Why should we not give her the lead in this case ? We led her with regard to the introduction of the ballot-box, electoral reform, free education, old-age pensions, maternity allowances, and compulsory training.Let us give her the lead in the matter of conscription. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- Have we the constitutional power to send men abroad ? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- No. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- Then we shall have to alter the Constitution. With conscription in operation, we should always have men trained and ready to go to the front well prepared to meet any emergency, and, as the honorable . member for Indi has said, we may need the services of such men on our own shores. Instead of having to send them abroad in defence of Australia we may, unfortunately, have to employ them here. I have only to say, in conclusion, that I considered that I should put before the House the view that I hold with regard to conscription so that at least one man amongst us may be able to say when the time is ripe, " I told you so." {: #subdebate-19-0-s5 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin -- I think it well to emphasize a point that has been entirely overlooked during this debate, and which is that from the very inception of this war more men have volunteered in Australia than the Department of Defence has been able to train and equip. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- That is so in respect of. all the British Dominions. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- Listening to the speeches of some honorable members, a stranger would imagine that Australia was a country of shirkers, and that it was necessary to use compulsion to induce our men to recognise their duty to the Empire. In these circumstances, therefore, I think it wise to mention the actual position. It is to be regretted that the Department did not get a move on earlier than it did. We do not want to repeat, in connexion with our equipment of troops, the stupendous folly that has been associated with the Small Arms Factory. After the war had been going on for ten months it remained for the Public Works Committee to show the Government that it was possible to work a double shift in the Factory. It was only then that a double shift was instituted, and we are now told that it is working without friction. It comes to us as a shock to learn that any Government could have thought it possible to turn out more rifles by working one shift of ten hours a day than by having two shifts of eight hours each. Something should be done in connexion with this Bill to enable us to utilize the services of men who have volunteered, but who, because of some slight defect have been rejected. I suggested to the Minister some time ago that the names and addresses of all men rejected should bo recorded, and that, if necessary, they should be asked to take the oath of allegiance, so that they might constitute a force for local defence - a kind of German landsturm - leaving those more physically capable to go on active service abroad. I do not believe that 33 per cent. of those volunteering are physically incapable of serving at the front, but that is about the proportion of volunteers who are being rejected to-day. And yet we are told that we ought to register men in order to secure more soldiers. Some of the men rejected are amongst the most physically fit men in Australia. They are trained athletes, who would hold their own in any arena, and yet they are rejected by the medical officers. An Imperial officer told me that he had seen men rejected in Melbourne who would be received with open arms by any recruiting sergeant in Europe.Numbers of men who have been rejected in Australia have gone to England and been accepted there. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- That is because, in Australia, more men of perfect physique were offering than could be handled. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- That brings me to the point that we are commencing our reform at the wrong end. If Parliament and the Government would concentrate their energies on preparations to receive the men who are enlisting, and who are eligible, we should do much more good, and secure a greater number of fighting men than we are getting at the present time. It is now proposed to remove the backbone of our recruiting system by calling in the rifles from the rifle clubs. Would it not be possible for the Government to secure 50,000 or 100,000 rifles, with a corresponding amount of ammunition, from Japan? I am credibly informed that it would have been possible, and is possible, now to get those rifles from Japan. " But," says one officer, " the Imperial Government cannot accept them, because it would mean that there would be two classes of rifles in the trenches." Why, there are three or four different classes of rifles in the same trenches in Belgium to-day. There are the Belgian rifle, the French rifle, the British rifle, and the Canadian Ross rifle, all being used side by side in the trenches. I have never seen any necessity for this Bill. The men of Australia are volunteering in far greater numbers than the Department is able to deal with. Instead of turning our attention to matters of this kind, the first great reform should be in the Defence Department itself, in order that some" better system might be devised for handling the men who do volunteer, and especially of discontinuing the absurdity of rejecting as unfit some of the finest men in the country. There is a suspicion that many men have been rejected, and that the high standard of physical fitness has been enforced because the Department was not able to train and arm more men. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I ask the honorable member not to discuss that subject. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I am merely mentioning that matter in order to show that there is no great necessity for this Bill, and that better work could be done by placing the Defence Department in a position to accept all the men available under present conditions. {: #subdebate-19-0-s6 .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr WISE:
Gippsland .- It is a novel experience to hear an honorable member expressing the view that this Bill is not necessary. Until the honorable member for Franklin spoke, all honorable members had agreed that the measure is necessary. I cordially support the Bill, which I believe to be absolutely essential at the present time. I have no wish to be at all pessimistic, but I do think that the people are blind if they fail to realize the present serious position of affairs in the Old World. We may be hopeful with the hope which our race always possesses, that we shall come out of this conflict successfully, as we have always done in the past; but a man is blind if he shuts his eyes to the fact that the position is very serious to-day. I quite agree that up to the present the voluntary system has been successful in Australia, and partially successful in the Old Country. But I cannot help feeling a considerable amount of sympathy with our Allies who are fighting under conscription, and putting millions of men into the field, knowing all the while that the British Empire is not sending to the front as many soldiers as it ought to send. I was very much impressed by figures which were contained in a cablegram published in the *Herald* on Saturday night. They purport to be from an official report of the French Relief Society, and they show that, from the beginning of the war to the 1st June, in killed, wounded, and prisoners, nearly 9,000,000 men from the various belligerent countries had been put out of action. The figures which particularly caught my eye were that, whilst France has lost 1,410,000, and Russia 3,495,000, Great Britain had lost less than 5Q0,000. It does seem that we have not been putting into the field as many men as we could send, and ought to have sent, in justice to the other nations who are allied with us. One fact we have to remember is that in this matter time is the essence of the contract. The Germans were prepared for the war; we were not. They have an enormous army, and every man put into the field is a trained soldier, ready to take his place in the fighting line at once. "We are not only short in numbers, and have to raise our armies, but we have to train them. The men who ave enlisting to-day will not be fit to take their position in the field for some months to come; in fact, they may be looked upon as the soldiers who will be required to do the winter service in Europe. Therefore, it is necessary to so organize our forces now that we may be in a position to do moro, if necessary, at a later stage. There has been some objection to the Bill on the ground that it means conscription. The measure does not necessarily mean conscription, but it does mean that if conscription should become necessary - and it will be adopted in the Old Country and Australia only when the situation has become desperate - we shall be in a position to put the system into force at once, instead of having to spend months in gathering the information which, by the aid of this Bill, we shall now get immediately. In the Defence Act, we have recognised and approved of the principle of conscription for home defence, and have given the Executive power to call all men between the ages of eighteen and sixty years to the colours for the defence of Australia. In one respect, conscription is more satisfactory than the present system of voluntary enlistment; it prescribes the order in which men shall be called upon to serve. The men between certain ages and unmarried are called first, and the married men without children are called before the married nien with children. J agree with the honorable members who have said that we have been sending to the front too many youths and far too many married men. If we had a properly-organized system, or if we were operating under the conscription sections of the Defence Act, many of the men who have gone to the front would npt have gone; we would have called upon the other men who aremore suitable - the single men who are without responsibility, and below a certain age. I do not say that Australia has not done well, nor do I decry the Commonwealth's contribution to the war. Nothing disgusts me so much as to hear prominent mtn who have done well in Australia always decrying the efforts of this country. It must be remembered that while Ave have been giving men, if we have not been giving in the same proportion as the people of Great Britain, we have been giving of our substance, as the widow gave her mite. This great country is in need of population, and every man we send to the front is of the country's life blood, and therefore every soldier we give is a gift of our substance, whilst the Old Country is giving probably of its surplus population. I shall not bo afraid of supporting conscription if such a course becomes necessary. I hope the voluntary system will continue to be successful as it has been in the past, but we cannot shut our eyes to the fact that if the war continues into next year, some desperate means of bringing it to a successful issue will be necessary. Having recognised the principle of conscription for the defence of Australia, it seems to me to matter nothing whether conscription is to be applied to war in other parts of the world, or war on our own shores. It is admitted that men would be called upon for service in Australia For what? For the purposes of defending Australia. We are defending Australia by fighting the enemy at the Dardanelles and on the battlefields of Europe. If we do not defend Australia there, but wait to fight the enemy on our shores, weshall have to fight a very inglorious battle indeed. I pity those who have to fight a victorious German army in Australia if the Allies are beaten in the fighting in Europe. It seems to me that there is no difference between sending men to Europe to defend Australia and in compelling them to serve in Australia for the same purpose. In fact, there may be more justification for compelling them to fight in Europe, because they may be able to do something of an effective nature there, whereas if we wait until the enemy comes to our shores, our men may be fighting a forlorn hope and losing their lives in what would possibly be a veryhopeless final struggle for existence. {: #subdebate-19-0-s7 .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS:
Cook .- The scheme which the Attorney-General proposes to put into operation for taking a census of the manhood and wealth of the country is a step in the right direction. Proposals have emanated from Opposition members, who are supposed to be business men,, which would mean that the taking of the census, instead of occupying only a few weeks, would occupy a few months. To those who have had experience of handling large bodies of men engaged in voluntary work, the idea of utilizing voluntary labour for the census in different parts of the Commonwealth - which requires accuracy and expedition - is ridiculous. We must have information before- we can; take action. So far we have been acting without information. A number of honorable members are discussing, the Bill as if it provided for action. It does nothing of the kind. It provides merely for the accumulation of information. As a matter of fact, this Parliament has done practically nothing. It has not done a solitary thing of substance in connexion with our present difficulties beyond the passing of two or three Supply Bills. True, the Referenda Bills have been carried. This is a necessary prelude to much necessary legislation. But we have done nothing as a Parliament regarding many great subjects over which we have undoubted power, and which it is essential should be dealt with. There has been no definite authority obtained from Parliament for the sending away of any number of troops. We have passed' an incidental measure - the War Pensions Act - but Parliament itself has sanctioned nothing. lt is proposed to acquire the sugar crop of Australia, at a cost of about £2,000,000, but this Parliament has not authorized it, nor have we considered the proposal. Judging from the speech of the AttorneyGeneral, it is in contemplation to acquire the whole of the wheat crop of Australia, or it is thought that it may be necessary to do so, and to harvest, transport, and market it at a cost of about £25,000,000. But no proposal has been put before Parliament for dealing with the matter. Parliament has not been asked to consider the scheme in detail, or to sanction it. In all the great financial arrangements that have been made, whatever they may be - I have very vague ideas of what they are, and doubt whether any honorable member has precise information concerning, them- {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- It is not thought necessary to consult Parliament under the present *regime.* {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Parliament has not considered 'the financial situation, and has not arranged it. In that respect we have full control of the finances of Australia. But we have not even had a chance to put our heads together to grapple with the financial difficulties of the Commonwealth. In regard to. foodstuffs- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Does the honorable member think this relevant to the Bill? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I think it is quite relevant. The Attorney-General, in introducing, the Bill, discussed all these subjects. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- He mentioned them, but he did not discuss them. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- He stated that one of the reasons for requiring the information that is to be collected under the Bill is, that it may be found necessary to organize the manhood of .the Commonwealth for the harvesting of the wheat crop. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member may refer to these matters, but he will not be in order in discussing them in detail. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I do not wish to refer to them in detail; but to make a passing reference to them. In regard to our food supplies, and the production of the country, all that Parliament has done, or is now asked to do, is to obtain information. If that is all that is necessary, the government of the country may be carried on by the appointment of Ministers who will undertake the management of our affairs, and elucidate problems of the greatest magnitude which arise during a time of war, when most serious consequences may arise put of what is done. If a small executive can handle the situation at a time like this unaided, I do not know what Parliament is for.Under this system it would be enough for the constituencies to choose members to form a kind of superior electoral college for the election of the National Executive. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is now going beyond the scope of the Bill. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- So far as the Bill provides for the acquiring of necessary information it is a step in the right direction, and I enthusiastically support it. The speech of the Attorney-General in introducing it shows that it may be necessary to nationalize the whole means of production in this country, and to arrange for distribution under Commonwealth authority. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr Sinclair: -- Parliament will have to accept my suggestion, and go to the States for the power that is needed. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- That, it seems to me, would be a futile proceeding. The States are continually being asked to do certain things, and some one or other of them is always lagging behind, or causing delay by making alternative suggestions. I do not' think that it was ever contemplated that the Commonwealth should go to the States and ask them for certain things, though it was contemplated that the States might offer certain jurisdiction to the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Surely there is no harm in consulting the States. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- They have been consulted. There was a conference recently, at which the Commonwealth Ministers met the Premiers of the States, and what was the outcome ? Nothing has been done in connexion with any of the great problems that are exercising the minds of the people. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr Sinclair: -- We say that we have not the power to do certain things. Why object to a . short cut to get that power ? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- There is no short cut, and there is nothing original in the suggestion. Every effort to . find a short cut has been futile. We are seeking information as to the wealth of the country. I should like to see the whole means of exchange in this country under Commonwealth control. We could, by the nationalization or socialization of exchange, by creating our Commonwealth Bank a bank of issue, deposit, exchange, and reserve, almost wholly solve the financial difficulties now confronting us. The countries that are best fitted to meet an attack on their national existence are those which have provided for the nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the countries which act most thoroughly along those lines will soonest recover from the social, industrial, and financial paralysis and exhaustion caused by the war. The necessities of the war are compelling us to enter upon this scientific organization, and to eliminate waste of both material and men. Germany to-day has a vast- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is now going quite beyond the question. I have allowed him fair latitude, and I ask him to confine his remarks to the Bill. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I am discussing what might be done with the information which it is proposed to collect. The acquiring of information can only be justified as a basis for action. I am showing how the information might be used in order to benefit the Commonwealth. Surely that is relevant. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member can see that there would be no finality if I permitted such a discussion. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I admit that it would open up a wide field, but surely it is not irrelevant because it opens up a wide field for discussion. However, I shall reserve the remarks prepared on the urgency and desirability of socialization for another occasion. The Bill provides for the tabulation of the personal services which can be rendered, and for a tabulation of the wealth, of the country. It has been said that there is at present no parliamentary or statutory authority for conscription in this country, but as I read the Defence Act there is authority for conscription here for service both at home and abroad. Section 33 of the Defence Act reads - >The Governor-General may, subject to the provisions of this Act, raise, maintain, and organize in the manner prescribed, such Permanent and Citizen Forces as he deems necessary for the defence and protection of the Commonwealth and of the several States. That section gives the Executive power to raise any defence forces that it may deem necessary. That is a def ence force as differentiated from our compulsorily trained Citizen Forces. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- What does the Constitution say? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- There is nothing in the Constitution to prevent forces from being sent to serve outside Australia whether they have been raised voluntarily or under compulsion. Section 60 of the Defence Act says - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In time of war it shall be lawful for the Governor-General (the occasion being first communicated to the Parliament, if the Parliament be then sitting, or notified by proclamation if the Parliament be not then sitting), by proclamation, to call upon persons liable to serve in the Militia Forces to enlist in the Militia Forces, and thereupon such persons (other than those who are members of the Defence Force) shall, in the manner prescribed, enlist in the Militia Forces for the prescribed period. 1. A proclamation under this section may call upon all the persons specified in any one or more of the classes hereunder set out so to enlist but so that the persons specified in any class shall not in anycase be called upon so to enlist until the persons specified in every preceding class are or have been called upon. Then section 53 provides that - >In time of war, the Governor-General may, subject to the provisions of this Act, place the Defence Force, or any part thereof, under the orders of the Commander of any portion of the King's Regular Forces or the King's Regular Naval Forces, as the case may be. Section 33 provides for the raising of a defence force, which is different from the Citizen Forces; section 60 allows this force to be called upon to serve where prescribed, and section 53 allows it to be put under the command of officers of the King's Regular Forces. Mr.Finlayson. - The Act does not say that men can be compelled to serve outside Australia. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- They may be placed under the command of officers of the King's Regular Forces. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Of the King's Regular Forces here. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Under the orders of the commander of any portion of the King's Regular Forces or of the King's Regular Naval Forces. It is not stated that the King's Regular Forces must be here. Mr.Finlayson. - Not necessarily outside Australia. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Not necessarily anything. The Act makes no qualification. Where the King's Forces are is an open matter under the Act. I admit that men cannot be sent to serve outside Australia except with the consent of the Executive Government. That is not the point being argued. There has been an argument as to whether there is statutory authority for the sending of troops to serve outside Australia whether compulsorily enrolled or obtained by voluntary enlistment. My reading of the Act is that there is statutory authority to send conscript troops outside of Australia under certain circumstances. Point is given to this by the definition of " war " in the Act. The Defence Act defines war as - any invasion or apprehended invasion of, or attack or apprehended attack on, the Commonwealth, or any territory under the control of the Commonwealth by an enemy or armed force. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- That is only in regard to the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- The honorable member's interpretation is too narrow. If it were apprehended that Germany was about to make an attack upon Australia there is provision in the Defence Act for the using of Australian soldiers. at any point even outside Australia where the invasion could best be prevented. I think that the honorable member for Balaclava agrees with that. {: .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr Watt: -- I do entirely. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- If that contention is sound there is no need for the Bill. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- There is no need for the Bill. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- There is need for the Bill. There is need for the information which this Bill provides the means of obtaining. But I can find nothing in contradiction or limitation of the provisions of the Defence Act which I have read. *Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.* **Mr. J.** H. CATTS. - From the manner in which my remarks on this subject have been received, it appears to be generally admitted by honorable members that there is power to send a conscript army to Europe if there be any danger or apprehension that we may be invaded by a European foe. And our defence could best be made by attacking such foe outside of Australia. From the schedule of the Bill which calls for particulars from the manhood of the country in relation to defence, it would almost appear that it had been drafted with the direct idea in the mind of the draftsman that conscription was to be given effect to. I do not believe that to be the case ; but it would certainly seem to be so from an investigation of the document, apart from any Knowledge of what is in the minds of Ministers. The first schedule to the Bill asks the men of this country to give particulars as to their social condition arid their health. But there is no space left oh the sheet in which a man can indicate in any way whether he will be prepared to bear arms in case of necessity. If we only ask a man as to his fitness, but not as to his willingness to fight, you either contemplate compelling him to fight regardless of his wishes, or you will need a second census to ascertain his mind in this respect. There is little difference between compulsion and the moral coercion suggested by the honorable member for Flinders. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- The Attorney-General has said that there is no intention to use the Bill in that way. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I think the honorable member was out for a few minutes when I was pointing out that, taking the sections and definition of the Defence Act to which I have referred, together with the schedule of the Bill now before us, one would infer, if he did not know to the contrary, that conscription was directly aimed . at. I was submitting that there should be a suggestion in the first schedule something like the following : - " If you are prepared to bear arms should necessity arise, you are entitled to make a statement to that effect." I do not say the question should be nut directly, but there should be some means taken to ascertain the mind of the manhood of the country on the point. {: .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr Chanter: -- Would not that be moral compulsion ? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- It could be put in such a way as not to be moral compulsion. The alternative suggested is that, if occasion arise, certain names shall be picked out, and an intimation sent directly to the persons so selected that, they are expected to bear arms and take part in the defence of the country, presumably here or abroad. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- Where does moral compulsion begin and end? Is there not moral compulsion at. the present time ? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I admit that it is difficult to say where moral compulsion begins and ends. If the suggestions of the honorable member for Flinders be acted upon, and men between certain ages, and of certain social condition, are picked out and told that they are expected to take part in the defence of the country, it is moral coercion, and about the nearest thing possible to legal coercion. There should be no compulsion and no coercion, unless it be deliberately decided on by this Parliament. The Prime Minister has given us his assurance that there will be no conscription - no compulsion - under this Bill. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I say that there cannot be compulsion under this Bill by any Government. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I submit for the right honorable gentleman's consideration the sections and definition in the Defence Act to which I have referred. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That means the defence of Australia. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I do not wish to go over the sections again. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I know them. We have not power to call out anybody at the present time, and send them away for the defence of Australia. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- With all respect to the Prime Minister, there are quite a number of honorable members, including the honorable member for Balaclava, aformer Premier of a State, who agree with the interpretation I placed on the sections, namely, that the Defence Act gives power, under one section, to raise a defence force, and, under another section, to place that force under the control of His Majesty's commander anywhere necessary to meet the apprehension of attack upon the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- It seems to me that the words " Commonwealth and territories " indicate that service in the Commonwealth and territories only is intended. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- If the honorable member looks more closely at the sections and the definition, I think he will see that the matter is not so easily disposed of. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- Supposing it was decided that the defence of Australia lay in England or America, could men be sent there? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- That is how I read the Defence Act. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Then what is the use of our going to all the bother of raising Expeditionary Forces if we can get the men in another way? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I submit that the Government could get the men in another way if they desired, and that is not being done simply because it is not the policy of the country. They have statutory power to compel men to go anywhere to defend Australia. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Every one who goes does so "voluntarily. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Certainly, but I say that the statutory authority is there to take the other method if the Executive so decides. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I say it is not; and this Government would not do it. What is the use of arguing like that? {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- To say that this Government would not do it is not to say that the authority is not there. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- These things must be done by Statute, and not by inference. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I quite agree, and I do not mean to throw any doubt on the Prime Minister's assurance when I say that I have seen clauses put into Bills on similar assurances that they would not be used for this or that purpose, but when those Bills have come to be administered and interpreted as Acts no reference is made to the debates in Parliament in order to throw light on their meaning - the measures are interpreted according to the letter. As a matter of principle, it is always dangerous to accept assurances of the kind in Parliament, instead of having these assurances embodied in the measure. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W Elliot Johnson: -- An Act ought to be made clear by its own terms. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Quite so; and I think it would be well if a clause were inserted providing distinctly that no object of the Bill is in the direction of conscription. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That would be perfectly ridiculous ! {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- The right honorable gentleman is certainly in a humour to use the most extreme terms. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Such a clause would not at all fit into this Bill. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I have heard the right honorable gentleman in this Parliament say things which I thought perfectly ridiculous, but in deference to him, I have not used such terms regarding him. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I must be following a bad example! {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- It looks like it. In regard to the tabulation of wealth, there seems to be a little apprehension, particularly on the other side of the House. As a matter of fact, such information ought always to be at our disposal, and not only in time of war. I have wondered at the paucity of knowledge that we have been able to obtain from our Department of Statistics. For this I do not blame the Statistician, but I do blame the various Governments, who have not placed sufficient money at that official's disposal for this necessary work. I find in -the New York *Sun* of 4th June of this year a complete tabulation of the wealth of the people of the United States. The article is headed, " What We are Worth"; and "Should Uncle Sam Decide to Impose an Income Tax." There is in that return a complete return of the wealth of every individual of the United States. For every man, woman, and child the amount is 1.965 dollars, and the total wealth 187,739,000,000 dollars, including exempt real estate. Following on that table is a comparison with other countries, and particulars as to the various States of the Union. The population of the States is close on 100,000,000, and the information is available at any time it is required by the Government. In this or any other country we cannot have proper material *on* which to base taxation unless similar returns are made; and I sincerely hope that now we have started the taking of our wealth census will never stop. An honorable member has interjected a remark as to the ability of **Sir Timothy** Coghlan, and he was certainly a very able statistician, but I believe that **Mr. Knibbs** is at least his equal. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- As good as any in the world ! {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- No one can come in touch with **Mr. Knibbs** without being struck with his great capacity for the work he has undertaken. I was very pleased to hear what the Attorney-General said about **Mr. Knibbs** yesterday. There is no red-tape about him. He goes straight to the point, and is both direct and scientific in hismethods. As the Bill will probably be rushed through at the Committee stage, I desire to take this opportunity of saying a word about the machinery. It has been suggested by members on the other side that voluntary labour should be made use of in a wholesale fashion. We have large numbers of men who are prepared to offer their services. I have had some experience of the employment of considerable bodies of voluntary helpers in political campaigns, and, in my view, the honorable members who have suggested that we should make use of voluntary help in work of this character can hardly have had much experience in the organization of voluntary help in their own electorates. In my own electorate, in the electorates that my party have asked me to take charge of in New South Wales for organizing purposes, and in the general organization of the work of the last campaign in New South Wales, I had a good deal of experience of the value of voluntary help from persons who were inspired with the ideals of the movement, who were extremely enthusiastic, and whose help was given under the best conditions, and my conclusion is that such help cannot equal in value the help that could be obtained if the same persons were regularly employed under direct and continuous supervision in some systematic and methodical way. I do not disparage in any way the great work voluntarily done for the labour movement. I am merely trying to compare voluntary, as against paid, labour for taking and analysing the census now under consideration. During the last State election I was asked to take charge of the second ballot campaign in that electorate of New South Wales in which the State Attorney-General was interested. The time at my disposal was only a week or ten days, and we had to engage paid labour to do a certain part of the organizing work; yet by its help we transformed a minority of 100 into a majority of 300 after a very strenuouslyfought contest. The voluntary help was magnificent, but it would have even been more effective if we could have paid the same persons and insisted upon more rigid carrying out of instructions. If we could engage our political helpers regularly at an election, work on definite lines, with power to insist upon the carry ing out of instructions, our results would be immensely increased and improved. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Had you sufficient to make a fair comparison? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Oh, yes. It .was rather an important election, and I am bound to say that all the money required was available. The Attorney-General did not stick at a pound or two so long as the work was effectively done. I would like to see what employment is going to be distributed, particularly at a time like this, but the distribution must not be at the cost of inefficiency. It would be a most inefficient way of handling this matter if we were to have a number of depots in various parts of the Commonwealth. All these cards will have to come in through the Post Office. They will arrive on different days on account of the distances they have to be sent, and if arrangements could be made for their complete handling at one common centre that would be the most efficient way of carrying out the census. The idea of utilizing voluntary labour in all parts of the Commonwealth is. in my view, absurd. As many inspectors as employees would be required to see that the work was carried out. Voluntary helpers can come in when they like, do what they like, go out to lunch when they like. It is impossible to exercise the same supervision and discipline over such assistance as it is over those whose duty it is to carry out the work under effective control. I was surprised to hear the suggestions that came from honorable members of some experience on the other side of the House, and I think their suggestions ought not to be followed. If the Attorney-General, with the experience he has had of matters in this direction, would consult with **Mr. Knibbs,** I feel sure that they would be able to evolve some scheme which would enable the work of tabulation and analysis to be done properly and at reasonable cost. **Mr. LYNCH** (Werriwa) f2.37]. - -I have great pleasure in supporting this proposal, because I think it is a first step towards that marshalling of our resources which has already been too long delayed. For months I have advocated the adoption of a system which would enable us to obtain the information that we hope to get as the result of this census. Suggestions of conscription have been made. We have been asked what the intentions of the Government are in putting forward this measure at all. I do not think we need discuss the question as to whether conscription is in the air or not. It may be quite true that this is the first step towards conscription. It may be the first step to quite a number of tilings. If a man, feeling he is in danger of robbery, gathers his valuables together, that step may mean that he is going out to spend his wealth on riotous living, or it may mean that he is going to put it in safe deposit. The suggestion regarding conscription does not affect the issue at all, although it does strike me as being an attempt on the part of the tail to wag the dog, for the dependency surely cannot talk about conscription until conscription has been decided upon at the head of the Empire. What I think the proposal does mean is that, having responsible government in Australia, we are trying to forge weapons by which we shall be able to take a full and comprehensive record of everything that can appertain to the welfare of the people of the Com.monwealth under our present system of government. We hope, by the information we shall gain, to be able to say exactly what powers we can put into this fight, either at home or abroad, and what resources we can marshal so as to lie able to .sustain a prolonged effort. It cannot be argued that a responsible Government such as the Federal Government is should be compelled to fall in with all sorts of movements originating throughout the States. Rather should the Commonwealth Government direct the actions of the States in one comprehensive policy. We hope by this information to.be able to say exactly what can be done, and what is impossible, and we can only do that by focussing our energies upon the development, not only of a higher standard of military excellence, but upon the development of all the matters that are necessary in order that we may maintain successfully, not only our military position, but also the solvency of the community. Surely we are not going to adopt a policy such as that which leads the drunkard to exclaim, " Fill it up again, boys," irrespective of what the consequences may be. We desire to know exactly what number of men of fighting age we have in the country, how they are employed, and how best they may be em- ployed. We have also the right to know the number of industrial efficients in the country who are volunteering, and whether it is necessary to debar them from going forward; in other words, whether their labours at home will be more valuable to the general interests than -their presence in the trenches abroad. We have a right to know what wealth we have in the country, how it is employed, and how it affects the welfare and solvency of the people, and what part of that wealth may reasonably be subject to taxation, or some other demand, should the exigency of circumstances require it. The honorable member for Richmond, when- dealing with this matter, seemed hardly to appreciate the position, because no sane man on either side of the Blouse would for a moment support any system which would dry up the fountains of industry throughout the Commonwealth. Rather would he strive by every possible means to bring about an accession of power and strength in the various industries that are all essential to our success. But a large portion of our wealth is not capital invested in the production of other wealth. A large amount of money is being wasted, just as many people waste mental and physical energy. That money, I think, might, as a last resort, be employed to better ends, and we shall be able to see by this census how far it can be touched by taxation. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- What does the honorable member' include in that class ? {: #subdebate-19-0-s8 .speaker-KIL} ##### Mr LYNCH:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES -- I may tell the honorable gentleman that all forms of worldly goods are included in the one term "wealth." . That part of wealth that we call capital - the money that is employed in producing other capital - ought not to be touched except in case of a desperate life or death struggle; but there is: another class of wealth that is very predominant that finds its outlet in needless extravagance, and in other directions - that creates no employment, either professionally or otherwise. People who souse such wealth would be much better engaged in either industrial or military employment for the benefit of the country, just as such wealth might be madebetter use of in the successful prosecutionof the war. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Where does the wealth that the honorable member refers to reside! {: .speaker-KIL} ##### Mr LYNCH: -- I cannot say where it resides, but it has been clearly proved that it is here, and if a complete census be taken of the disposition of the wealth of Australia, I think it will be found that only a small minority of the people are engaged in what any political economist would describe as work of production. The wealth that I refer to helps to maintain in idleness or unnecessary employment people who could be much better employed, and we shall ascertain where that wealth 'is if these census returns are going to be anything more than an empty tabulation of figures. We have a right to know all these things. The Commonwealth Government also ought to be able to control the volunteer system as we know it, because it is at times so spasmodic in its action as to be almost detrimental to the interests of the country. By this census we hope to obtain a list of the people who are engaged in any industry - the people who are idle, and doing nothing of the work that is essential for the welfare of the country. We shall be- able to ascertain how many of these people, whether they be at the top' or bottom of the tree, are of the fighting age, and by means of the recruiting officers we shall be able to focus our attention upon them. In short, this census will enable us so to marshal our resources as to fit us, not only to put up a bigger light oversea, but to prepare for whatever the final shuffle of the cards may mean in regard to the defence of Australia. If because of a thousand and one contingencies that may arise, and which need not be too clearly defined, it becomes necessary to do battle in Australia itself, we shall then be able, instead of being turned over utterly bound and helpless to the enemy, to put up a final fight such as only a free people struggling for their very existence can do. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr Webster: -- Would the honorable member send all the idle men to the front ? {: .speaker-KIL} ##### Mr LYNCH: -- No. I would not send any man to the front without his consent. The danger we have to face, in Australia to-day is that more men will volunteer for the front than we can properly spare, and so leave the Commonwealth utterly dependent. The spirit of freedom so actuates the people of Australia that it may be said of them, as was once said of the Yankee girls, "They have been al- lowed almost every liberty, and they take the rest." The spirit of freedom has so permeated the people of Australia that the one thing necessary in connexion with this war is to bring them to a realization of the fact that the best way to bring about the ruin of the Commonwealth is for every capable and able man to leave it. They need to be reminded that we must retain some of the capable and able of our people in order that the solvency of Australia may be maintained. Who is to say that the war is likely to end a few months hence, or to be brought to a close by one special effort? We must be prepared for a long sustained effort, and we can best make that preparation by actively developing the resources of Australia. It as in that way that the Government charged with the administration of the affairs of this country will be able to fulfil its functions while pursuing its duties in a truly patriotic spirit. I am sure my fellow-countrymen throughout the Commonwealth will be prepared to make every sacrifice. It is essential that there should be a census' of the bone and muscle as well as of the wealth of the community. And it is equally essential that property owners, as well as those who have but their labour to offer, should be prepared to make sacrifices, since all that we hold dear, all that we love, and everything that makes for the progress of humanity is now in the balance. It is not by mere spasmodic effort, nor by throwing prudence to the winds, that we shall assist in that final victory which I hope ultimately will be ours. That victory can be secured only by treading the road of selfsacrifice and self-abnegation. {: #subdebate-19-0-s9 .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 .- In time of peace I am a keen Individualist, but in time of war, when the welfare of the country, and all that we enjoy, depends upon the action of the Government of our country, I hold it to be the duty of all to get behind that Government. This is particularly so at the present juncture, having regard to the fact that the terrible task which confronts the several Governments of the whole Empire, was before the people of Australia when they were called upon to make a choice of their representatives. I have just returned from a week's recruiting tour, which has afforded me many opportunities of getting into touch with my constituents, and I do not hesitate to say that the feeling of the country, if I am capable of interpreting it, is that the political mind of Australia is absolutely closed. All parties are determined to give the Government whatever assistance may be necessary for the quick and effective prosecution of the war, and to enable Australia to play her part. Marvellous enthusiasm is being manifested throughout the country. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Does the honorable member propose to connect his remarks with the Bill? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes; I am going to show that the country, by its response to the appeal for recruits made during the last few days, has practically shown its approbation of the measure which the Government are now putting before us. T approve of this Bill, and shall do what I can to help its passing. Coming to its machinery provisions, I am not altogether satisfied that the whole of the details proposed to be elicited are not already available to us from State sources; but even should it mean duplication, if the Government think it necessary to pass this Bill, by all means let them have it. I believe that most of the information which it is proposed to obtain by means of this census can already be obtained through State channels. If there is one fact by which I was struct more than by any other during my recent tour of the country it was the manifest anxiety on the part of the people that a lead should be given. The Government, in bringing down this Bill, has given a lead. I found every one who was unable to go to the front anxious to know what he could do for home service. Every one appeared to be anxious to learn to what use their possessions and their individual ability might be put for the service of their country. The Government will have an opportunity of determining these questions for them when a complete registration of the resources of the country has been made. I express my regret that the honorable member for Fawkner saw fit to say last night that the men on the land had not played their part in connexion with this war. I did not interject while the honorable member was speaking because I was anxious to hear his deductions, and I certainly think that they were hardly fair ones. We have to remember that the people on the land have just passed through a terribly trying times. No sec tion of the community has more contractual obligations than the man on the land, and during the dreadful time of drought through which these people have just passed, many of these contractual obligations have had to be suspended. In addition, we must not overlook the fact that when foodstuffs were running short an appeal was made to our farmers to redouble their efforts, and to cultivate larger areas. To this appeal there has been a very general response. Additional areas have been sown in many cases, but many young men have left the farming districts for the front. In a number of localities a very good response has been made to the call for volunteers. In other localities I have been disappointed. But there is no section of the community for whom I have always entertained a stronger admiration that the people upon the lands of Australia. They have never shirked their obligations at home, and a great many of the burdens of citizenship are cast upon them. In following their everyday employment they are exposed, summer and winter, to the roughest conditions, and I am satisfied that in peril or danger the white feather would never be shown by them. If the response to the appeal for volunteers has not been as large as might have been expected from our fanning districts, I think that, upon examination, it will be found that there are a good many reasons for this. I know that tremendous sacrifices have been made by some of the people on the land. In some cases two or three sons out of one family have gone to the front, and those left behind will be dependent upon outside assistance for gathering the harvest. I do not think there is much in the suggestion which has been made that the school boys would be of much use to the farmers in taking off their crop. Wheat is raised most successfully in the dry parts of Australia, and the temperatures of our wheat areas are very high; in many cases they run up to 110 degrees and 112 degrees in the shade during the harvesting season. Therefore, I do not think that school children are going to be of much service in the harvest field. They may be of use in the fruit industry, and they may do good service in stooking hay, but I would not place much value on the assistance that school children can give to our wheat farmers. As the honorable member for Indi pointed out, it is during harvest , time that the pace is put on ; the entire organization of a farm is then put into action. All its available horseflesh, its machinery, and its manual labour is then taxed to the utmost. The women, too, are taxed to the utmost in their domestic duties, and it is not desirable that the feeling should be created that the places of able-bodied men, who at the request of the various Governments have put large areas under cultivation, and have since gone to the front, can be taken by the children of the country. There is another matter to which I desire to refer, and I approach it with some reserve. When war is declared every man and woman is called upon to state hia or her position; I feel that, for the most part, we can depend upon every man in this country" to do his duty when the time arrives. The declaration that Australia has to make is that every foot of land in this country is British soil, that there is not one inch of neutral territory. If there is any one who feels to-day any embarrassment by reason of the nationality of his parents or his own nationality, he must not forget that he has enjoyed to the full the privileges of citizenship in this country, and that now is the time to discharge the highest national obligation that could fall to his lot. Conscription, of course, brings in all. but the present system leaves it open for those of all nationalities who are enjoying British freedom in Australia, who have been able to establish homes in the Commonwealth, and have reaped the benefit of our institutions, to recognise the part that they ought to play. All that I have to say is that the response has not been as general and as uniform as we might well have expected. We might very well issue a word of warning that, in connexion with this census, the nationality of those who remain at home, as well as of , those who go to the front, will be made known, so that when the question of discrimination between duties has to be dealt with, we shall know exactly how the peoples of different nationalities living in Australia have played their part. When Australia determined upon the adoption of compulsory training, it was intended that the system should apply to all males between the ages of fourteen and twenty-five years. That system, unfortunately, had not been in operation long enough before the war to provide for the military training of the whole community. Many young men escaped by a few days the compulsion to train, others escaped it by months, and still others by years. As it is, we have, drawn off about 100,000 of the best of our young men.; but many of the others who remain at home have had the benefit of that compulsory training system. As part of: cur preparatory measures, compulsorytraining should be given to everybody in* the community._ {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorablemember is now wandering from the question before the Chair. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I respectfully submit that this is pertinent to the question of the census, because one of the obligations that may be placed on the males of the community is that they shall go into active preparation for war. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- If I permit the honorable member to wander into these little by-paths he will be dealing with some other question that is not before the Chair at all. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I will not pursue the subject beyond saying that I am an advocate of compulsory training for all ablebodied men. {: .speaker-L77} ##### Mr Hampson: -- Of what age? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- From eighteen to forty-five years. In many places the community has not » waited for a lead from the Government; awkward squads have been formed, and are - being drilled, and there could be no better incentive to recruiting than this form of preparatory training. With regard to the mustering of the material resources of the community, the honorable member for Capricornia, by way of question, and other honorable members by implication, have indicated the early introduction of a system of income tax to raise funds for the better prosecution of the war. With such a proposal I shall be in hearty accord. I have always advocated the imposition of an income tax in the Federal sphere as one of the best means of raising money for the good government and defence of Australia. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- You want double t:xation. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- My view is that the Commonwealth Parliament might well adopt the principle of taxation of income, and remit to the States the taxation of land. Such an arrangement would avoid the duplication to which the right honorable member for Swan objects. {: .speaker-L77} ##### Mr Hampson: -- Do you not think that the States .might give back to the Commonwealth portion of the 25s. per head they are receiving? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -There will be plenty of time to consider that proposal at the expiration of the existing arrangement. If there was ever a time when the entire wealth of Australia should be taxed for national purposes that time is the present. I know that the party now in power are committed to taxation, direct in its incidence, for purposes of defence. Their policy is that Naval and Military expenditure shall be provided from the proceeds of direct taxation. I have always been unable to understand where the Labour party could get the money for the carrying out of that policy, and now that plank in their platform is being put to the test. Nobody has a right to escape his proper obligations with regard to defence. I have never been able to' discriminate' between the duty of men who put their money into shipping, mines, or manufactures, or other classes of business, and the duty of the man who puts his money into the land. Yet the latter has been unfairly picked out by this Parliament to carry the greatest burden of taxation. If ever an exemplification, of the injustice of the system was given it was during the last period of drought, when the great producing interests of the country were in a condition of absolute paralysis. But even though the great landed interests have failed to yield a return, and the nation is at war, other people in the community have been making fortunes. Many of them have been providing the war supplies for the community. Others have been providing foodstuffs, and some have had war fortunes given to them by Act of Parliament. I refer particularly to the fixation of the price of wheat in Victoria. Could anybody say, as a matter of equity and fairness, that those who are enjoying' the greatest prosperity in war time should be exempted from contributing in proper proportion to the necessities of the country? I do not fear the imposition of a Federal income tax. I shall welcome it as the most equitable system by which the Government can finance its activities. I do not believe in the duplication of taxation, and, as I have already remarked, I would prefer that this Parliament should hand back to the States the power of taxation of land. Could there be any stronger reason for such a course, from the point of view of the present Government, than that the party which they represent in politics has governmental control in five out of six States, and is, therefore, able to deal with the land settlement and taxation problems? {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is again straying beyond the Bill. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- One of the reasons why I particularly support the Government in their desire to provide fresh means of taxation is that the entire resources of the country, whether in land, accrued wealth, or cash reserves - those musty cash heaps to which the honorable member for Werriwa referred - shall be at the disposal of the Government for the prosecution of the war. With regard to recruiting, I hope that the Government will recognise that those men who are from 150 to 300 miles from the big recruiting centres should be given an op- portunity of registering at convenient local depots. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I ask the honorable member to adhere to the Bill. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I desire merely to say that I hope that while the Government are recruiting the raw material for soldiers, they will devise means of registering recruits closer, to their homes, instead of putting them to the expense and trouble of coming to the city to offer their services. {: #subdebate-19-0-s10 .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE:
Maranoa .- I cannot allow the second reading of this Bill to pass without expressing my feelings in regard to the measure. . If there is one thing more than another that impresses me with the idea that this Bill is a measure that should not be enacted, it is the whole-hearted support which it has received from the honorable members of the Opposition. I always fear gifts from the enemy, and no matter what we may say the fact remains that those on the right of the Speaker and those on the left are deadly political enemies. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GRoOM: -- We do not suggest any motive on the part of the Government. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- I do not say that honorable members opposite1 are not sincere. I believe they are sincere, and, therefore, it is a godsend to Australia that they are not in office to-day, otherwise we should have had conscription introduced. Some honorable member's of the Opposition have been careful to keep out of their speeches all mention of conscription, but the honorable member for Flinders, and other honorable members in reply to interjections, have said that they would be in favour of conscription if such a course became necessary. The honorable member for Flinders says that this Bill means that every male between eighteen and sixty years of age is morally, if not legally, liable to service. That statement is sufficient to indicate to me what would be the outcome of the Bill if the Opposition were on the Treasury benches. Both the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General have stated that the Bill does not mean either, directly or indirectly, conscription for service outside the Commonwealth. That assurance removes a lot of my objections to the Bill. But 1 noticed that the *Argus,* the organ that supports honorable members opposite, does not mind what is done with the manhood of Australia so long as we do not touch the wealth. Honorable members opposite are quite satisfied to send the manhood of Australia anywhere and everywhere in the defence of the Empire,* but we must not do this or that or any other .thing with the wealth of the community. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir William Irvine: -- Do you think that is a fair criticism of honorable members of the Opposition? {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- Not of the whole of them. I am quoting the attitude of the *Argus* and some honorable members. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have not heard one honorable member of the Opposition state that view. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- I heard the honorable member for Richmond make that statement to-day. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I assure the honorable member that I did not make that statement or anything like it. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- The whole of the honorable members of the Opposition may not hold that view, but. some of them do. There can be no doubt as to what was meant by the speech of the right honorable member for Swan. What can bo the object of the inquisitorial questions contained in the schedule? With regard to the respective merits of the voluntary and compulsory system, I wish to put to the House this point of view : Have honorable members ever heard of British, soldiers having to be driven to fight atthe point of the bayonet or sword or the* muzzle of the revolver? Never 1 {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- There was the pressgang. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- In the time of Julius Cæsar {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Only eighty years ago. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- I am speaking of to-day. What are the British troops doing ? They are leaping out of the trenches and rushing to death. On the other side, we hear of men being shot down because they will not leave the trenches. That is the difference between conscription and volunteering. I remember an incident which occurred when I was in the Transvaal. The commanding officer formed up the gunners, and asked for six men who would volunteer to go to certain death. There was a slight pause, and then the whole fifty-six men present stepped forward. That is what happens under the voluntary system. Under the pressgang system all those men would npt have been ready to risk their lives. The six men who went did not put their hands into the hat to pull out their numbers; they had them beforehand. I am sorry that the Bill has been introduced. What is meant by asking electors to state whether their general health is good, bad, or indifferent; and, if it is not good, to set down the cause; and, if they are suffering from blindness, deafness, or the loss of a limb, to give particulars? If a health census is wished for, cannot it be obtained during the collection of the ordinary census? We know what will happen when the lists are published. Many men who are staying behind to maintain widowed mothers or the families of relatives who have gone to the front or who are dead will be turned out of their billets, and, although there will be no compulsion, there will be nothing left for them to do but to go to the front.- {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- That is happening now. Go to Adelaide, and see if it is not being done there. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- We would not stand that sort of thing in Queensland. I am surprised that representatives of South Australia should stand it. Electors are to be asked to state the place of their birth, and the birth place of their father and mother. There are thousands of men in my electorate who do not know where their fathers and mothers came from. I know where I was born, but I am not certain of the birth places of my parents. Why is . this information needed ? It grieves me that members of my party are congratulating the Government on the introduction of the Bill, just as members of the Opposition are doing. {: #subdebate-19-0-s11 .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT:
Calare .- I shall support the Bill for the collection of a census, because I think it is highly necessary that the Government should have the information that is sought for. As for there being too much detail in the questions asked, the honorable member for Maranoa must know that an elector will not have to answer every question. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- There are heavy penalties for failure to answer questions. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- An elector would not be penalized for failing to answer a question which he could not answer. The questions regarding the possession of property will take a considerable time to answer, and it seems to me that it is hardly necessary to obtain the desired information in this way, because it can be more readily obtained in another way. It can be got from the State authorities, and from the municipalities and shires. There are also the land tax and income tax officers to apply to. I suppose there is not a State of the Commonwealth that does not collect an income tax. As for particulars of stock-in-trade, I know that in New South Wales every farmer and primary producer makes an annual return of the value of his farming implements and other possessions. I do not know what is in the minds of Ministers, but I advise them to hesitate before imposing taxation upon the landowners and agriculturists of Australia. The land-owners of New South Wales have ten taxes to pay. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr Yates: -- In South Australia the return from income and land taxation is £47,000 more this year than it was estimated at, although during -the year we had the biggest drought on record. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- The good people in the cities have been making tremendous profits out of the war. As for land taxation, the Government would demand the last penny even of a man who had lost every sheep he once possessed. In New South Wales a land-owner has to pay, first, the Federal land tax; then an income tax, on which the exemption has been reduced to £250, and the rate has been raised from 6d. to 8d. in the £1 ; then a super-tax of 3d. imposed by **Mr. Holman** for war purposes. Then comes the shire tax. {: #subdebate-19-0-s12 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is not discussing the Bill. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- I am anticipating the intention of the Bill. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is not in order in doing that. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- Other honorable members have discussed this matter; I know that the honorable member for Swan did so. Let me merely mention the taxes to which I refer. There are the land taxes, an income tax, a shire tax, a " P.P." Board tax- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is disobeying the direction of the Chair. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- I presume that the desire of the Government is to raise money for the prosecution of the war, and I wish to advise Ministers to get all the money that can be got by way of loan. In this matter, they might well take a leaf from the book of the French Republic, which, instead of making the minimum amount that can be lent to the Government £10- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is not discussing the Bill. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- Every member who has spoken has discussed it as I am discussing it. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- That is not so. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- Will you be good enough to inform me, sir, what the motive of the Bill is? I do not wish to transgress your ruling, but I fail to see what other object the Bill can have than that which I am stating. The people of Australia are to be asked to give information so that they may be taxed; and I wish to point out that it would be in the public interest to interfere with me trade and business of the country as little as possible, and that, therefore, as much money as possible should be raised by way of loan. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable member may not anticipate the proposals of the Government. He is at liberty to discuss only the question before the Chair. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- Will you, sir, be good enough to let me know what I can say? {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: -- The honorable member may discuss anything connected with the taking of a census for war purposes, but the motives behind this proposal are not under discussion. Taxation proposals will be submitted by separate measures. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT: -- I am in favour of getting this information as expeditiously as possible; but I hope that the Government will embarrass the people as little as they can, and will not take unfair advantage of the information that they obtain. However, as I am prevented from speaking on these very important matters now, I shall reserve my remarks concerning them for another occasion. {: #subdebate-19-0-s13 .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES:
Adelaide .- I wish to place on record my views on this Bill, because they may appear somewhat contrary to those I have expressed in the past regarding militarism. I do not believe in militarism or in war, and I do not believe in people who believe in war. But I recognise that, at the present time, we are quite "up against it," and are involved in a war against our own wish, and that, consequently, we must make the best of a bad job. The honorable member for Maranoa seems to deprecate my want of power or influence to alter the determination of employers in South Australia not to employ single men who they think ought to enlist. I ask that honorable member to tell me, out of the wealth of his knowledge, what power I have over the private employers In South Australia. The honorable member knows that I have no power of the kind, and his remark, I think, was a somewhat contemptible one to make. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- I did not know what the honorable member meant. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I accept the honorable member's assurance that he misunderstood my remark. I support this Bill because I regard it as indicating that we are beginning to systematize our war energies ; and we all hope that this will be done thoroughly. There are honorable members who seem to be afraid of conscription or compulsory service; but, I ask, what have we to-day but morally compulsory service? We began by offering contingents in the way they were, offered by the Leader of the Opposition when in -power ; but now we are told that the war 5s ours - that the liberties of Australia are being fought for on Gallipoli, and that it is our duty to take our proper share, and not as a merely volunteer affair. As I have always said in relation to the Defence Act, if a man chooses to make his home in Australia, and yet declines to give his aid to defend it, it is time he left the country. If it be a fact that Australian liberties are being fought for at Gallipoli, it is quite time the people were told that they must step into line and give their assistance to the defence of those liberties. We should not be dependent on voluntary service. I wish no man to take my share in the defence of the country, but I do not think I ought to take my place in the firing line while others, whose duty it is to go before myself, stay behind. I am prepared to take my active share - and I think I may say without egotism that I am skilled enough to make a "good fist" of it if I got to the front. There are placards about the streets showing a cap with the. inscription, "Does this cap fit you?" Well, if this cap fits any man in the crowd who will not put it on, why should we not put it on him? Another placard shows a vacancy in a row of soldiers, with the inscription, " This place is left for you " ; and, as I said before, if it is a man's duty to be in that vacant place, why not put him in it? That is the proper attitude to take up if we mean to defend Australia. What are all these placards and other efforts but moral compulsion? We can imagine the sensations of a man after the war, who has not been to the front, and who is asked by his child what part he took in defending the liberties of Australia in 1915. It may be that such a man has done as much as any in the firing line; but the child will not realize that sitting at a desk making out pension orders for the maimed and the bereaved might take the place of fighting. I regard this Bill as the first logical step that we have taken towards the shouldering of a responsibility that is ours. Some honorable members confuse the issue by playing on the word "conscription"; but, as I understand the term, it really means the system adopted in countries where men are taken from their ordinary daily life for a term, and forced into military training, so as to be ready if they are needed. In our case, however, as soon as the war is finished, and the man comes home either fit and well or maimed, he will resume his ordinary rights of citizenship, and could not be called out again. I am prepared to admit that the service contemplated is compulsory - and it is much better to have proper systematic methods than that men should leave for the front who, from an economic point of view, would he much more useful in Australia. Married men have gone, leaving behind wives and several children, and in case of the death of such men we are pledged to pensions for the dependents. At the same time there may he families of hefty, lusty sons who remain behind, the loss of any one of whom would, perhaps, not mean so much. The pension of £1 a week to a wife and 5s. a week for children I cannot help regarding as a mere charity dole, because, with such a provision, a woman will have to work in order to bring her family up in any way respectably. I take it that this Bill, if carried to its logical conclusion, will avoid many of these effects of the present system. Every man who can fight would be brought into line, and even supposing the Bill does not result in compulsory service, we shall at least know definitely what are our resources in men, means of transport, and so forth. We are told that all employers of labour are offering the greatest facilities for their men to enlist: and we are asked to go upon the public platform and stimulate the recruiting. I wish to bring under the notice of the House a statement which was made by **Mr. F.** Massey Burnside, general manager of the Omnibus Company, and which, as reported in the *Argus* of this morning, shows that he does not believe in recruiting. The secretary of the union had made some remarks in regard to wages paid, and **Mr. Burnside** replied - >No man is shown on our books as having received £1 19s. for his last week's work, . but four men received £1 17s. 4d.,£l 13s.1d., £111s. 7d., and £1 18s. 9d. respectively, because they were allowed a day off to attend at the Defence Department for the purpose of enlisting. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is travelling outside the scope of the Bill. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I submit that my remarks have to do with the question of the taking of a census, because the sort of thing to which the newspaper report refers could not occur if that census be taken and the Bill carried to its logical conclusion. I wish toshow what is taking place at the present time, and what, in all probability, the position will be if this Bill be carried into law. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is not in order in anticipating what may take place hereafter. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I amnow referringto what has already taken place. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is referring to another question altogether. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- These men are said to have been allowed a day off in order to enlist; and I submit that that is the sort of thing that the Bill is brought in to provide against. These men made personal sacrifice in order to offer their services to the country; and this was necessitated by the system that now prevails. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member must see that the Bill is one merely for the purpose of taking a census. {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I am quite in favour of the taking of that census ; and in order to show the necessity for it, I must make a comparison between the conditions now and the conditions thatwill probably obtain after the census is taken. I have to show reasons to my own conscience, and to my constituents, why I support this Bill, which I regard as the thin end of the wedge for compulsory service. If X can show, that in Melbourne these men were docked their pay- {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I shall refrain from further quoting the extract. The Government have realized, though late in the day, that we must take our proper place in the war that is now going on, I am quite in accord with the taking of a wealth census; and I do not care whether or not this is the forerunner of taxation. Were I all-powerful on this continent, and had I to finance this war, I would not only take a wealth . census, but I would take the wealth. When a working man volunteers and loses his life on the field he loses his all, and his family are left unprovided for, whereas a rich man who is killed by the enemy generally leaves sufficient to provide for those he leaves behind. {: .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr Pigott: -- Do not the war pensions provide for such cases as those suggested? {: .speaker-L1T} ##### Mr YATES: -- I can only hope that the honorable member's wife and children will never be asked to subsist on such an amount as that given under the "War Pensions Act. I would not like to go to the front and leave my wife and girl dependent upon the pension that would be paid to them in the case of my death. We are told that the liberty of the Australian people is being decided by this war, and that it is necessary for us to take this census in order that we may successfully prosecute our efforts in the way of providing troops and financing our part of the struggle. If, in order to do this, it is necessary for the people to give all they have got, I think that should be taken, even if it means a man's last penny. I would use every means to obviate the necessity of paying interest on any war loan, because I would not pay any man interest on the money he lends in order to protect that money. " When a man gives his life he gives all he has, and in the same way that this man has given his all, I think the capitalist, or any other man, should b"e asked to contribute all they have got. A man cannot grow another leg or another arm. He cannot come back to life once he has been killed. He has made his sacrifice, and whatever sacrifices are necessary to properly finance this war, I hope, when the census is taken, that the proper methods will also be taken to see that posterity does not have to pay for it. ' {: #subdebate-19-0-s14 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
South Sydney .- I heartily support the Government in this measure, which I do not think is preliminary to the introduction of conscription. The history of the war has shown us what the position is from the point of view of conscription. When the Cook Government was in power, 20,000 men were asked for. They came forward without any pressure. Then 50,000 men were wanted. They were easily obtained. Now 100,000 men are either in camp, on transports, or at the front. All that shows that the voluntary system is quite sufficient to supply our needs. I look upon this measure not as a measure of conscription, but as one that is necessary to the proper defence of the country. If it should happen that the country needs defending, the census will enable the Government to know where to look for the men capable of carrying on that defence. The Bill is the first step towards national defence. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- It is the first step towards conscription. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- I do not think it is, otherwise I would not vote for it. No one can tell what the result of this war may be, and if the situation were to arise in which we required men here, there would be a good deal of indignation, if, owing to absence of organization, the Government had sent all available men away. I admit that this census should have been taken some time ago, but it is better to do it now than not at all, and I believe the will of the people is in favour of this census. .Just as we have taken the first step in the way of organizing the manhood of the country, so I think those who have wealth should not have the slightest objection to similar organization of their wealth. I would llike to see a clause in the Bill under which the resources of the various States could be tabulated - the possibilities of transport from one State to the other, the rollingstock and the number of locomotives. All this information would be useful to the Commonwealth Government. We need also to obtain a census of the number of motor cars, which would probably be a greater factor in national defence than railways. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- It will not be necessary to cover the same ground twice. They have all information with regard to motor cars at the police stations. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- The Government ought to have all information with regard to transport facilities. I have not the slightest hesitation in extending my hearty support to the Bill, though I hope when it is dealt with in Committee, the Attorney-General will agree to wipe out some of the details regarding the returns which have to be submitted. I refer, particularly, to that calling for returns of furniture and personal effects, about which there is likely to be a good deal of complication and annoyance. Suppose I am in co-partnership with another party in the matter of furniture and personal effects. I should like to know who is going to fill in this return for me. That is one of the many little things that will probably cause irritation. I hope the Government will not insist upon that clause, because I fail to see how information of that kind can be of any service, whilst the task of filling in the return will be a great nuisance to people who just have a few pots, pans, and tables and chairs. However, I give the Bill my hearty support. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee:* Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 (Operation of Act). {: #subdebate-19-0-s15 .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr GLYNN:
Angas .- There is just one matter that I would like to bring before the notice of the AttorneyGeneral. In our general legislation we exempt certain properties from taxation, for instance, churches and church properties. I know some anxiety has been created by this Bill on the point as to whether the people concerned with properties which are exempt from taxation will be compelled to make returns. Religious trusts and charitable trusts may find difficulty in complying with the terms of the Bill, however desirous the parties responsible may be of doing it on the ground of public duty. I would ask whether the Attorney-General would not give consideration to such cases, as in all probability if taxation 'follows as the result of this Bill - {: #subdebate-19-0-s16 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! I cannot allow the honorable gentleman to pursue that line. {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr GLYNN: -- Very well, I will leave the matter there. I think the AttorneyGeneral knows what I have in mind. {: #subdebate-19-0-s17 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- With your permission, **Mr. Chairman,** I would like to say that I will give the matter every consideration. {: #subdebate-19-0-s18 .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane -- This clause limits the operation of the Bill to the duration of the war, and no longer. That, to me, is most objectionable. I am quite satisfied that both the censuses proposed under this Bill are necessary, in order to make up deficiencies in our statistical information. Neither of them, however, go to the limits to which I am prepared to go. As the Bill stands, our information on these matters will cease with the war. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Under this Act. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- That is so. In order to continue the supply of this information we should have to revive "this Act or to pass an entirely new measure. If the spirit of this clause be properly interpreted, then this information is wanted only during time of war. That being so, the Bill is for war purposes, and the information to be obtained under it is wholly, solely, strictly, and definitely limited to War purposes. 'It is quite futile for the Attorney-General to persist in his disclaimer that this is not in any sense of the term a conscription measure, since such a disclaimer is inconsistent with this clause. This census of the people, their condition, their ability, and their wealth is to be taken in order that we may use them in connexion with the war. The Prime Minister said to-day quite clearly and distinctly that the wealth census is being taken, as everybody believes, for the deliberate and special purpose of raising a war tax. {: #subdebate-19-0-s19 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! The honorable member cannot discuss the purposes of the Bill on this clause. He may do so when we reach clause 4. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- The duration of the Bill is to be determined by the duration of the war, and therefore the Bill is for the purposes of the war. That is a logical deduction. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- It may be logical, but it is not parliamentary. The honorable member, in other words, is not within the Standing Orders in discussing the question at this stage. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- The reflection, therefore, is on the Parliament, and not on my logic. In my judgment the information sought to be obtained under this Bill should be collected in time of peace as well as in time of war. The proposed census relates to information that we should have obtained long ago, and it could have been secured by an amendment of the Census and Statistics Act. I should like this clause to be omitted. If it were, we could continue to obtain this information after the war had ceased. We are going to spend, it is estimated, from £150,000 to £200,000 upon this census. We are going to set in motion a lot of machinery, and, perhaps, before that machinery has completed its operations the war will be over. Let us hope that it will be. The whole machinery, however, is to be set up, and as soon as the war is over, it is to automatically disappear. I object to that. I believe that the Bill is unnecessary, and unfair, and that it is opposed to the spirit of Australia and to the spirit of the times. Clause agreed to. Clause 3 agreed to. Clause 4 (Taking of war census). - {: #subdebate-19-0-s20 .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane .- I object to the census being taken under this Bill. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- The honorable member is inconsistent, since he said only a moment or two ago that it ought to be continued after the war. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- I said that I objected to the census being taken under this Bill. The Bill is entirely unnecessary. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The honorable member objects not to the principle, but to the title of the Bill. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- I object to the whole thing. I am not opposed to the taking of a census of the life and wealth of the Commonwealth, but what is now proposed is that we shall take a war census. Despite the Attorney-General's disclaimer, this war census can be intended only for a specific purpose, and that is to enable the Government to provide men and money to carry on the war. It is very pleasing, of course, to hear the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General, the Leader of the Opposition, the honorable member for Flinders, and others saying that this Bill does not mean conscription, and that if they thought it did they would have nothing to do with it. When I was speaking on a previous occasion, I said that I did not like to use the word " conscription," which is an ugly one, and probably the compulsory service to be rendered under this Bill will not be conscription in the ordinary acceptation of the word. According to *Webster,* conscription means a compulsory enrolment of men for military or naval service. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- This clause has nothing to do with enrolment, compulsory or otherwise. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- The Minister of Defence, speaking at the Inter-State Conference held in Melbourne on the 14th instant to deal with the question of munitions, said - » Judging by the recruiting returns of the past few days, they would have sufficient men for the firing line. There is, therefore, in the opinion of the Minister who is responsible for the defence of Australia, no need for this compulsory enrolment. More men are offering to-day than the Department can honestly and properly handle. Between 35 and 40 per cent, of those offering are being rejected for paltry reasons. Whatever the voluntary system may achieve in other countries, in Australia it has proved absolutely equal to every demand. There is no need for this census in order to ascertain what men are capable of serving, because those who are capable of serving are offering themselves in larger numbers than we can handle. A Bill on similar lines is now before the British Parliament, and Lord Lansdowne, a member of the British Cabinet, in speaking to the measure, said - >The country realizes that the " old goasyouplease system has broken down." . . . There is not a word regarding compulsory service in the present Bill, but I believe that the country will not tolerate voluntary service with the present anomalies and injustices much longer. This .Bill will greatly assist compulsory service, because it will shorten the interval elapsing between the decisions to resort to compulsion and absolute compulsion. I believe with Lord Lansdowne - and I find myself in unusual company in this respect- that the Bill now before the British Parliament has behind it the same idea as that which is behind the Bill now before us, and this Bill can only have the same result. What Lord Lansdowne says is correct. The Registration Bill in Great Britain means a shortening of the interval in the ultimate step towards absolute compulsion. Our Bill is a step towards absolute compulsion, and, if the definitions in Webster's unabridged dietionary are correct, " compulsory registration " is " conscription." For that reason I oppose the Bill, and likewise the proposal to take a census under the provisions of a War Census Bill. My objections would vanish if the census proposed to be taken were taken under a Statistics Act, or some such measure, and if the Government were prepared to say that, in their judgment, the position of affairs was so serious that the exigencies of the situation could not be met without compulsory enrolment and the demanding of men's services - if they said that we must have compulsion in the matter, I would be prepared to accept their decision and support them. The Government, however, cannot say that there is need for taking that step, because their own Minister of Defence says that he has sufficient men for his purposes. Evidently the Government have become scared, or they are simply slavishly following the lead of a Tory Government in the Old Country. Had the party to which I belong been on the other side of the chamber, and had this measure been introduced by the right honorable member for Parramatta or the honorable member for Flinders, every man in the party would have denounced it as being a Conscription Bill pure and simple.' I denounce it now as being a Conscription Bill. It is meant for nothing else but to compel men to serve. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Why should they not serve ? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- That is the feeling which is displayed. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Why should only the best be allowed to go ? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- Under voluntary service, the best always go, and only the best. One of the most regrettable, sad, and perplexing, yet inevitable, features of war is the fact that the best men are killed and the older and weaker men are left to carry on the burdens of their country, and perpetuate their species. The other night, when I spoke upon this subject, I was told that it was necessary to know where our engineers and fitters were, so that they could be classified and organized, but if we require engineers we do not need to spend £200,000 in order to find them. We can get all the engineers we require by asking for them. Furthermore, we have unlimited authority to reject men offering for service on half-a-dozen different, grounds. Men need not be rejected solely for being undersized, or for having defective- teeth or flat feet. They can be rejected on the ground that their services are required in Australia. If we need engineers here, all we have to say is, " We need you here. We cannot allow you to go to the front." Now that this Bill is approaching its last stages in this Chamber, I am more than ever satisfied that it is the first step towards conscription. In fact, I go further, and say that it is really a Bill for conscription, and that being the case, I am opposed to it. Clause, agreed to. Clause 5 agreed to. Clause 6 (Persons required to fill in and supply war census forms to Statistician) . {: #subdebate-19-0-s21 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- In order that persons may know what penalties are provided for failure to comply with the requirements of the Bill, will the .Attorney-General add to the census forms a specific statement as to the penalties which may be imposed ? {: #subdebate-19-0-s22 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP .. - Though I cannot speak definitely, I am of the opinion that the space on the census form will hardly be sufficient to enable it- to be done, but at the same time I quite agree that the widest possible publicity should be given to the consequences of not fulfilling the duties required of citizens. Clause agreed to. Clause 7 (Particulars to be specified in war census forms). {: #subdebate-19-0-s23 .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir WILLIAM IRVINE:
Flinders -- I should like to say a good deal in regard to this clause, but as I recognise that honorable members are anxious to get away, I simply ask the AttorneyGeneral whether , he is prepared to make a statement with regard to the schedules generally or their application ? {: #subdebate-19-0-s24 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I should like to mention what is in the mind of the Government in regard to these schedules, which are quite distinct in their nature and involve, to a certain extent, a corresponding distinction of treatment. Parliament will be asked to settle definitely the questions to be asked in reference to the schedule dealing with personal service, and the questions so settled upon should be put to the citizens in that form. This is necessary, because there is in the minds of some people an idea - which I have given up trying to remove - voiced just now by the honorable member for Brisbane, that this census is for the purpose of conscription. Parliament!, therefore, should determine the precise nature of these questions not settled by regulation. The position in regard to the wealth census is quite different. I do not think that there is any serious difference of opinion as to what information we are trying to obtain nor of the necessity for obtaining it, but there is ample room for difference of opinion as to the precise form in which these questions ought to be put. I do not profess to speak as an expert as to the precise form the questions should take. I have a number of amendments which I intend to move to the schedule, dealing with wealth and income. The Committee will have an opportunity of expressing its opinion upon each of those amendments, as well as upon the schedule as it stands. After that has been done, however, I shall not regard the schedule as being finally settled. I have already had the benefit of some advice from the Commissioner of Taxes in this State - **Mr. Prout** "Webb - who has been good enough to offer me the benefit of his experience, as has also the Land Tax Commissioner and **Mr. Knibbs.** "What I would suggest is that after the Committee has done what it can towards making the schedule perfect in order to insure that it shall be as effective for our purpose as possible, the Government will not issue it until it has been submitted in its amended form to the Joint Committee to be shortly appointed, whose members will represent the different parties in the Parliament. In this way both political sections will have the assurance that the questions to be put under the Second Schedule to the Bill will be such as the Committee intend shall be put. And we shall thus have the benefit of the experience of the expert advice at our disposal. If honorable members will accept this suggestion, the Bill may be passed very quickly, and the discussion on the schedules considerably shortened. I have several amendments to the Bill, but I will put them as briefly as possible. As far as the wealth schedule is concerned, we shall do what we can, with the advice proffered to us by experts, to make it as perfect as possible. It will then be submitted for approval to the War Committee, representing the whole Parliament, and it will not be issued until it has been made acceptable to that body. {: #subdebate-19-0-s25 .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir WILLIAM IRVINE:
Flinders -- I am inclined to think that the suggestion of the Attorney-General will overcome some of the difficulties which some of us- experience in regard to this matter. I need hardly say that the wealth schedule is on© which will create an enormous amount of practical difficulty in various directions. People who have had to make out returns in connexion with land and income taxes are already making representations as to the superfluity of requiring them to undertake all that work again. If this Committee were asked to pass that schedule to-day, it would be obviously impossible to do it. We should require to debate it at length, and to make a great many suggestions in regard to it. As I understand the suggestion put forward by the Attorney-General, it is that the personal service schedule should be put in order now, so that it may come into operation at once. Then the wealth schedule is to be passed in its present form, but, as clause 7 gives the Government an unlimited power of modification- {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- Which we shall not exercise in regard to the personal service schedule. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir WILLIAM IRVINE: -- The AttorneyGeneral, I understand, intends that the wealth schedule shall not come into force except by regulation, and then only after the War Committee has had an opportunity of approving of it. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Why not provide for the submission of the regulation to this Chamber ? {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir WILLIAM IRVINE: -- If the House were sitting, I would be inclined to agree with that suggestion. I think that there is a good deal in the interjection. I have as great an objection to legislation by regulation as has the honorable member for Maribyrnong. Under ordinary circumstances I should be very sorry to vest the Government with power practically to enact legislation by means of an Order in Council. If the AttorneyGeneral will give the further assurance sought by the honorable member for Maribyrnong, I shall be very glad. In any case, this Bill ought to go through another place early next week.. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- That is the object we have in view. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir WILLIAM IRVINE: -- And I think we desire to assist the AttorneyGeneral to achieve his purpose. But the War Committee would not have sufficient time before Wednesday next to receive the advice of the special officers whom the Attorney-General has been consulting. If the Bill is to go through Parliament next week, and to be at- once put into operation as far as the personal schedule is concerned, it is obviously impossible for the requisite investigation fe> take place before then. Consequently, I would suggest that after the War Committee has gone fully info the matter, and after the Government have framed a regulation upon it, that regulation - as Parliament will then be sitting - should be laid upon the table of this Chamber. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I have no objection. But I think that that course will involve a long discussion upon each item in the schedule, whereas this Committee can now say what it thinks ought to be done generally. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir WILLIAM IRVINE: -- What I suggest is that there are a great many things in the Second Schedule of the Bill which I am not prepared to accept without debate. But I am willing to allow the measure to go through in its present form on the Government undertaking that they will not attempt to bring it into force except by regulation. {: #subdebate-19-0-s26 .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia -- I understood the Attorney-General to say that the Committee should determine the terms of the First Schedule to the Bill, but that in regard to the Second Schedule he would prefer that the Government should be given an opportunity to alter its terms if they so desire. After the honorable gentleman's promise that the Government will not in any way attempt to alter the First Schedule, I feel disposed to move an amendment which I have framed to put this clause in order. My amendment is that we should strike out the words " with such modifications or additions as are prescribed," and insert the following proviso : - ' ' Provided that the second schedule may be modified by additions or alterations as prescribed." The adoption of that amendment would give the Government power to alter the second schedule, but not the first. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- In view of the positive assurance I give now I do not think the amendment is necessary. If we found it impossible to use the first schedule in the form in which it was passed, we would bring the Act back, to Parliament, and ask for an amendment. We shall not issue the first schedule except in the form in which Parliament approves of it. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS: -- I understood from the honorable member for Flinders that it was the first schedule which should come before the House again as a regulation and be discussed. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- The reference waa to the second schedule. {: #subdebate-19-0-s27 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- I think we may take the assurance of the Attorney-General in regard to the first schedule. As regards the second schedule, by the terms of the Bill itself the schedule must be promulgated by regulation. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Sir William Irvine: -- No. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- I think that any modifications or additions must be made by regulation. The Attorney-General has undertaken that any modifications or additions will be made by regulation, and this House will have power under the Acts Interpretation Act to disallow any regulation of which it does not approve. In that way the House will preserve complete control by Parliament. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- That will apply to both schedules. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Yes, but the AttorneyGeneral has undertaken not to alter the first schedule. The honorable member for Corangamite has asked me to bring under notice of the Attorney-General a special request he has received by telegram, that when there are several trustees in one estate they should be classified as one body, and make one return, instead of each being required to furnish a return. The same request might apply to partnership properties. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I have no objection to that. Clause agreed to. Clause 8 agreed to. Clause 9 - >Every officer executing any power or duty conferred or imposed on any officer under this Act shall, before entering upon his duties or exercising such power, make, before a Justice of the Peace or a Commissioner for Declarations or a Commissioner for Affidavits, a declaration of secrecy in the form prescribed. {: #subdebate-19-0-s28 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - >That the words " of secrecy " be left out. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- What is the object of the amendment? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- If we are to deal with the personal service cards rapidly it is undesirable that the form should be of such a nature that everything connected with it should be treated confidentially. But there is a particular meaning attaching to the words which, I apprehend, is not desirable. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I understood that the information was to be confidential. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- It is the suggestion of the honorable member for Flinders that these words should be omitted, but if honorable members wish the words to be retained I shall have no objection. I ask honorable members to observe the difference between the objects of clauses 9 and 10. Clause 10 provides that an officer shall not, except as allowed by the Act, divulge the contents of any form or any information furnished in pursuance of the Act. That relates particularly to those persons engaged in dealing with the forms, but clause 9 will cover all those persons - and their name will he legion - who, throughout the Commonwealth, will he assisting in any way to instruct the people how to fill in the forms? It is perfectly proper to draw a line of demarcation between these two clauses. The contents of the schedules will be quite confidential. A person will fill in his form and post it, and nobody will see it unless the person furnishing it asks for assistance in filling it in. The words "of secrecy" may be omitted without danger. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 10 to 13 agreed to. Clause 14 (Punishment of offences). {: #subdebate-19-0-s29 .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia .- This clause provides for a fine not exceeding £50, or imprisonment not exceeding three months, or both, or, for an indictable offence, a fine not exceeding £500, or imprisonment not exceeding one year, or both. In connexion with the decennial census a person filling in the forms is given every assistance. A collector leaves the forms at the various houses; the householders are assisted in filling in the particulars, and if they fail to give information they are fined. Under this Bill, however, no assistance is to be given to the general public to obtain the papers. The public are expected to secure the papers on their own initiative; the cards will not be delivered to the houses. I can well believe that throughout the Commonwealth there will be hundreds and thousands of people who will know nothing whatever about this Bill or its contents, but they will still be liable under it to the penalties to which I take exception. I ask whether the services of the Post Office could not be availed of, as they will be later to distribute pamphlets dealing with the referenda proposals, to send these schedules to the people throughout the country? Honorable members will agree that the taking of a census in the United Kingdom, where 45,000,000 of people reside within an area that could be hidden away in one corner of Queensland, is a very different thingfrom the taking of a census in Australia, where, although I admit millions of people live in the big cities, neighbours in the country may be 50 miles apart. I think that the services of the PostOffice should be availed of to furnish these schedules to the people; and we should not ask them, under penalties, to obtain them for themselves. {: #subdebate-19-0-s30 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- It would be a mistake to suppose for a moment that the Post Office Department could carry out this work without so impairing its efficiency for the performance of its ordinary functions as to result in a practical breakdown. In connexion with the census, the Government Statistician had 7,000 collectors, whose sole business was to go round with the necessary forms, and they were weeks at the work. The collection of the forms after being filled in was done by this same army of workers. The difficulty will be, not as the honorable member for Capricornia seems to think, in the people getting the forms, but in the filling of them up. It is not for this Parliament, that has passed compulsory electoral registration, to baulk at this proposal. We make a man register as an elector, whether he likes it or not; we make him send his children to school; we make him see that they are vaccinated, and so on. I remind honorable members that the people of this country are now inflamed with the desire to do something, no matter what it is, to help in the stupendous task before the nation. The people, animated by this spirit, may be trusted to carry out the duties imposed upon them under this Bill. In existing circumstances we need not despair of people performing duties with enthusiasm that, in normal circumstances, they might ignore. Consider the circumstances. There are at least 100,000 households in Australia, and perhaps not less than 1,000,000 people, intimately concerned in this matter, because their husbands, sons, or brothers are at the front, or about to go to the front. They cannot, and will not, neglect the duties imposed upon them under this Bill, or treat them as if they were the ordinary functions of a citizen in normal times. We are here asking them to do something which, if they will not do it, cannot be done at all. I say deliberately that if the people will not do this for themselves, it cannot be done within a reasonable time, and unless it is done quickly it is useless to do it at all. As for penalties in a measure of this description, penalties must be provided' for. We must show that we are in earnest, and intend to get this information. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- How do these penalties compare with the penalties under the Census Act ? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- These are heavier. Under the Census Act a penalty of £10 is provided for. It must be remembered that the penalties set out in this clause are maximum penalties. Magistrates in many cases do not seem to be able to understand this general rule, governing practically all Commonwealth laws. There may, therefore, be some misunderstanding; but I repeat that these are maximum penalties, and there is no reason why a magistrate should fine any one more than1s., or should fine him at all, for an honest mistake or an innocent oversight. An offence under the Bill for which the maximum penalty might be imposed would have to be one in which it was plain that the mind of the citizen went with the offence, and that it was committed with a criminal intent. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Would the honorable gentleman have the power to remit a fine ? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- Undoubtedly; it is a part of my business every day to remit fines. {: #subdebate-19-0-s31 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan -- I think that the penalties provided for in this clause are excessive, and I am fortified in that opinion by what the Attorney-General has said. He says that in 100,000 households throughout the Commonwealth there are people who are intimately concerned about this matter. That statement is surely inconsistent with a proposal to impose a penalty of £50, or of £500, and in default, three to twelve months' in prisonment, for failure to comply with the provisions of this measure. I remind the Attorney-General that failure to register for electoral purposes is met by a maximum penalty of only £2. I believe this clause will be a dead letter, as the penalties proposed are monstrous. By proposing such heavy fines and imprisonment for offences under this Bill, one would think that the Attorney-General desired to make criminals of the people. I do not believe in manufacturing crimes or criminals, and I am altogether opposed to these heavy penalties. Clause agreed to. Clause 15 (Regulations). {: #subdebate-19-0-s32 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- I understand that in drawing up the regulations the first schedule is not to be altered. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- That is so. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- But when the regulations are drawn up in connexion with the second schedule, those regulations and the schedule will come before this House and may be discussed. I understand that they will not come into operation before honorable members have had an opportunity to consider them. {: #subdebate-19-0-s33 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I am entirely in the hands of the Committee in this matter. Two suggestions have been made. There is no difference of opinion on the point that the second schedule shall not come into force until it has been approved either by the War Committee or by this House. In my view, the War Committee could best deal with the matter, but I do not press that. I propose to make a number of amendments in that schedule now, because I do not desire that the Bill should go to another place until we have done the best we can with it. When it is returned from another place, in whatever form the second schedule may then be, the regulations relating to it, together with the schedule, will be submitted to the War Committee or to the House. Honorable members can please themselves as to the body to whom they are submitted. {: #subdebate-19-0-s34 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- I am inclined to agree with the Attorney-General in this matter, and for this reason. This House cannot, shall I say, " police " these matters as the War Committee would be able to do. We cannot call officers and question them. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The Committee would have no more opportunity of policing the matter than the House would have. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I think that it would. We cannot call experts and examine them here, which is what the Committee could do. Therefore, we have not the same power to make the regulations fair and equitable as the Committee would have. If we desire that the regulations be made fairly, and that the information obtained be full and accurate, we had better leave the matter to the Committee. Clause agreed to. First Schedule - Commonwealth of Australia. {: .page-start } page 5061 {:#debate-20} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-20-0} #### WAR CENSUS {: #subdebate-20-0-s0 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I invite honorable members to offer observations as to whether we should insert in the schedule a question asking for a return of all arms in the possession of private individuals. Honorable Members. - Hear, hear! {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- It seems to me that that question, if we determine to ask it, should be placed in the personal service schedule. It is of importance to know what arms are in the possession of private individuals. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- And what quantity of ammunition. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- Another matter to which I direct attention is this: Citizens are to be asked to state whether their general health is good, bad, or indifferent, and - Question7 - if their health is not good, to state the cause. Personally, I should have no objection to answering the latter question, but I have had the advantage of a discussion with the Leader of the Opposition and the honorable and learned member for Flinders, and they have convinced me that the question may be regarded by many as inquisitorial ; and, therefore, I am willing that itshould be struck out of the schedule. If a man says that his health is bad, we are not really concerned as to the cause, and the man who does not tell the truth in replying to Question 6 is not likely to give a true answer to Question 7. It is enough for us to know that a man is unfit, and it will be time enough to ask why men are unfit when we have reason to believe that they are malingering. By inserting a question regarding the possession of fire-arms, and striking out the question as to the cause of ill-health, we shall improve the schedule. The Committee has the positive assurance of the Government that the form of questions submitted to the citizens' will be that approved by Parliament. {: #subdebate-20-0-s1 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- Is there any reason why the question should not he asked - " Are you prepared to join the Army for active service?" Answers to that question should materially assist the Government. Thousands of men are ready to enlist, as is shown by the way in which volunteers have been coming forward in Victoria; and what has been happening in this State will, within the course of a few weeks, happen in every other State of the Commonwealth. There will be a general recruiting campaign, and an enormous body of men will volunteer, to join the colours.. There are two principal objects in these attempts to organize the community - one is to ascertain what number of nien is fit to go to the front, and the other is to discover how best we can organize the community for the supply of material, equipment, and munitions for war purposes. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- A third purpose, which ' is, perhaps, more important than the other two, is the organization of the country industrially and in every other way to make our fighting forces more efficient. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is the point to which I am coming. The great difficulty is not to get men to go to the front, but to equip and maintain in the field those who are willing to serve. I would ask every citizen, " Are you willing to go to the front, and, if so, what notice would you require, after acceptance, before actually joining the colours ?" {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- -Would it not matter whether a man was married or single, and whether he was childless or had children? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have said that the time has come when the Government should compel certain men to remain in Australia. As the Defence Department, by using the organization which we are creating, increased its equipment we could, were these questions asked, call up recruits from the classes best fitted to serve. The Minister of Defence would be able to call up the men, have the equipment ready for them, and put them straight into the camp. I think that would be infinitely better than the method we are adopting, and that is why I suggest that these questions should be put in." There is one other question I wanted to mention in connexion with the schedule, and that is in relation to those industries, those particular industries, which I think I referred to at an earlier hour. There should be a' special effort in this census to organize every man who can be utilized in those particular industries; but I do not think this schedule is drafted in such a way as to enable that to be done. It does ask a man what employment he is actually in, and what .other employment he would be willing to engage in ; but there are certain industries for which particularly we require men. Take, for insta nce, the .textile industry, our Woollen Mills. In Australia there are many men who have had experience, perhaps, not in woollen mills, but in textile industries. where looms are employed, and I think their services might be gathered in on this occasion. Then, in regard to the manufacture of shells, I know of two or three cases myself of men in country occupations who have had experience in the arsenals in England. I do not think the details of such employment will be obtained by the census in its present form, and, therefore, it is probable that the services of such men may not be secured. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I think question 10 - What other occupation " - does that. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- But it does not ask if a man has had experience in such particular industries, and, personally, I think a separate schedule to deal with those special industries would have been the best means of obtaining the information. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I think we will get everybody by the notification from the Defence Department that that class of workmen is wanted. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If the Government are satisfied, i am. i am simply pointing out what I think would be a better way in which to obtain the fullest organization of certain industries. {: #subdebate-20-0-s2 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- I do not agree with the honorable member for Richmond that the questions as they already stand do not provide for all that is required so far as concerns registration and the discovery of the occupation which a person is best fitted to perform, apart altogether from any work he may be engaged, in at present. The questions 9a and 10 set out the position very clearly, and any intelligent person filling in that return, if he has information of that character to give, will feel called upon to supply it. I have no doubt that if further questions were prescribed the effect would be really to limit the number- of persons who fill them in. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I think you want an actual definition, of the occupation. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Any information particularizing the nature of employment will undoubtedly be of great value. Coming now to the other point referred to- I am sorry in one way, but glad in another, that it was raised - I want to say at once that this Bill is not a commandeering Bill at all: {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No one suggested that it was. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It is not a recruiting Bill. There is no suggestion that any person who gives the information asked for therein will be in any different position after he has given it than he was before, so far as the defence of the realm is concerned. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- At the same time, it is intended to assist recruiting, I hope. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- It is a war census. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It is not, in a conscription sense. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- The title says it is. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I say that any attempt by any honorable member, or anybody,I care not whether on this side of the House or on the other side, to associate this Bill with conscription is an attempt, wilful or otherwise, to mislead the public. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- We call it a war census. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- It is a war census. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- Limited to the duration of the war? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It arises out of the necessities of the war. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- But the AttorneyGeneral, when he was introducing it, said the Bill would be limited by the duration of the war. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It arises out of the necessities of the war. My honorable colleague is too well seised of the position to limit this legislation to the war. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Clause 2 does that. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It will be useful for civil, as well as for war, purposes. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- You are merely speaking of the duration of the Bill? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Yes. No one will say that this Bill would not have been introduced had there been no war. I am glad the circumstances have awakened the people of Australia to a sense of their duty, and that we will get this information. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- You have most of it already. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- And we shall require it for civil, quite as much as for war, purposes, even when the immediate necessity ceases. We are aware that we have a quantity of information, but the essen tial part is not available at the present moment. By means of this census, however, it can be brought up to date speedily and completely, and I believe every honorable member on both sides of the House, and among all parties, will be very happy indeed to have this information furnished to the Government, not to determine who shall go to the war in the first instance, but so that we may be able to mobilize our resources for the use of the people, and to enable the Government more effectively to protect the country from foreign foes. {: #subdebate-20-0-s3 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I only want to say that if this Bill does not refer to the war, and is not intended as a warmeasure, it has absolutely no meaning. It is a war census. It is not for any civil purpose, but for war purposes only, since its operation is specifically limited to the duration of' the war. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The information will live longer than the war. The Bill applies only to the taking of a census for one period only, and not a recurring one. {: #subdebate-20-0-s4 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The Bill ceases to operate when the war is over ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Certainly. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- And, therefore, if it is proposed' to continue to gather thisinformation after the war there will have to be further legislation ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Exactly. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Is not the purpose of the Bill to classify our material and men - men in particular - for the purpose of ordering and mobilizing our forces to the best advantage? Some men, for instance, can serve the country better in Australia than at the front; and the Bill is intended, I take it, to get such knowledge as will enable the Government, when they make their appeal for volunteers, to classify the men, and show what they are best fitted to do in the prosecution of the war. It may turn out when the census is taken and applied to those already at the war that we have sent men whom we could very much better have kept at home. Until we have all the factors of the case before us in a tabulated form, we may not know where to make our appeals with most effect, and decide who ought to go to the front and who ought to do duty at home. This is part of the proposal which I hope will be carried much further, so that by means of the Committee, and in other ways, we may be able to mobilize the resources of Australia, both in men and material. Since that is the unmistakable intention of the Bill, may I suggest that no good purpose is served by trying .to make the Bill appear what it is not? This is a war census, and nothing else - it is so stated in the Bill - and its operation is limited to the duration of the war. {: #subdebate-20-0-s5 .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane . -r-Some remarkable statements have been made during the progress of the debate, but that of the Prime Minister is the most remarkable we have yet heard. This is a war measure introduced for two reasons in particular. There are men enlisting for the front whose services could be utilized to better advantage in Australia, while there are others who are not volunteering, and who, in the general opinion, oUght to be accepting their share of the work at the front. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- How are you going to make them do that? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- The information is to be gathered, as stated, for the specific purpose of finding out whom we ought to call upon. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- And what then ? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- That is what I want to know. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- What does the honorable member mean by ' ' call ' ' ? That is going very near compulsion ! {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- I have said that, in my opinion, this is a Bill for conscription - that is only my own opinion. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- That is not the Prime Minister's statement. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- Of course not; it is my statement. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Surely you will accept the statement of the Prime Minister ? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- I am absolutely sure that the Prime Minister, the AttorneyGeneral, the honorable member for Flinders, and the Leader of the Opposition are not in favour of conscription. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I am not; I do not think it is necessary at present. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- Then who is trying to put conscription into force ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- If I thought we could not get enough men without it, I would have conscription. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- If this Bill is not going to help us to get men for the front, it is entirely useless. This Bill has two purposes. We are going to take two censuses, one of which is in regard to the wealth of the country. The Prime Minister stated quite clearly, what we all know and expected, that we are going to have a war tax, and that that tax is to. be based on the wealth census taken under this Bill. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Nothing of the kind; the tax will come much earlier than that. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- What does the Prime Minister mean ? We never can understand him. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- In *Webster* " conscription " is defined as the compulsory enrolment of men - not compulsory service, but compulsory enrolment- *-lot* military service. If the Bill is not for the purpose I have indicated, what is the meaning of the question in regard to military service? Why do we ask the question, if we are not passing this Bill for war purposes ? What the country knows, and; I think, understands quite distinctly, is that this Bill is intended to give us a register of men within certain ages who are capable of bearing arms, so that we may utilize them in the best possible way in the defence of the country. **Mr. Austin** ( Chapman. - The register will stand when the war is over, and the information will be useful for other purposes. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- As I have said, the information under both headings would have been valuable before the war, and should be continued after the war. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Then why object to the Bill? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- I am not just, now objecting to the Bill, but objecting te* the statement of the Prime Minister that the purpose of the census is not to assist in carrying on the war. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I did not say that. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- Those may not be the exact words, but is the Bill not, intended to assist in recruiting men for the war ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Hear, hear!. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- As the honorable member goes on he gets worse ! {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr FINLAYSON: -- The Prime Minister says "Yes," while the AttorneyGeneral says " No." {: #subdebate-20-0-s6 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan -- As the discussion continues one begins to wonder what the object of the Bill at the present time, really is. Is it a war Bill, but not intended for use during the war? I take it that the object of the legislation is to get information as to what men there are between certain ages suitable to go to the war. There would be no advantage in having that information if the suitable men do not go to the front. What advantage would it be to the country to know that there are many thousands of men between certain ages who are fitted for the front, unless they are at least told that they ought to go ? If these men say that they have other obligations and duties, and are not prepared to go - what then ? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- The honorable member for Flinders said that we ought to demand their reasons. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- I am not in favour of conscription, because I do not think it is necessary just now. I think, however, that the object of the Bill is to enable the Government, if we do not get sufficient response without conscription or a legal demand - whatever we may call it - to ascertain what men are available and legislate accordingly. There ought to be no blinking of the facts; otherwise, why go to the trouble of taking the census? What can be the object of taking a census if, when we get it, we do nothing with it? The response has been too good already to demand any coercion, but I am not in favour of going to a great deal of trouble to collect information unless we are able to see what we are going to do with it when we have got it. The Bill is to have effect only during the war, and the information will soon be out of date unless it is kept up. Most of the information we require we have already. The Commonwealth Land Tax Department can tell us the value of the lands in estates above £5,000 in value, and the States can tell us the lower amounts. The Federal Statistical Department and the State Statistical Departments know all about the wealth of the country, the incomes of the people, and so on. I asked the AttorneyGeneral to let us know what **Mr. Knibbs** thinks about this matter, and what information is desired that he cannot get from his own Department or from the Land Tax Commissioner, or the State Statistical Departments, but the Attorney-General has given me no reply on that point. If something more than we have already got is wanted we should devote ourselves to that point, and not go over the whole gamut, and try to get the whole of the information anew, with all the attendant trouble and expense. I would, of course, like to have all possible information catalogued, printed, and available, but I do not believe that it is to be of use to us during the war, unless it is to be for the purpose stated by honorable members opposite - to ascertain what men within certain ages are available to go to the war, and to make them go if they do not volunteer. {: #subdebate-20-0-s7 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I despair of being able to impress on the minds of honorable members who have lived in an atmosphere utterly remote from that now being breathed by the modern world, any conception of what the Bill is for. It is for the purpose of organizing the nation. It is a belated attempt to do that which, had it been done long ago by England and by us, would have made this war absolutely impossible. We are fighting an organized nation. The right honorable member for Swan says we have all this information. That is a voice coming from the tombs of the Pharaohs. We have not the information. He asks what is the use of having information if we do not make use of it. The right honorable member is saturated with information that he does not make use of. We have not the information we want. We have to get it. We must do now hurriedly work that we ought to have had in leisured preparation for years. The honorable member for Brisbane has the bee of conscription in his bonnet, and because of the obstinacy of his race I give him up. On the other hand, I have the right honorable member for Swan. If this Bill means conscription, I say devoutly, without any reservation, that those two will be the first to go. If the Bill served no other useful purpose, it could not then be said to have been altogether futile. The Bill will organize the forces of the nation. My honorable friends are unable to see that for the first time in the history of the world it is the whole nation that is at war - not the 100,000 fighting men that we are going to set up at the front, but the nation at large. We must face the fact that, unless we organize, we cannot keep 100,000 fighting men at the front. It means the bleeding of the best resources of the nation in men and money, and a disorganization of commerce and industry which we cannot tolerate. We must put our house in order. This Bill is to enable us to do it. Its purpose is not to send certain men to the front. Its purpose is to find out what numbers of men we have to do the things which have to be done. So many men have to be engaged in the primary industries. We cannot carry on the war unless we can sell our primary products. Cut off as we are, and must be, from those financial resources upon which Australia has depended for over 100 years, we must now depend, for the first time, on what we grow and make ourselves. Just as a man confronted with tremendous obligations determines to utilize and develop his resources to the uttermost, so must this nation. And the first step towards this great work is to take stock. This is a national stocktaking, and the purpose for which we utilize the information must necessarily depend upon the circumstances of the case. The Bill is not for the purpose of conscription for service either in Australia or abroad. In no circumstances would I agree to send men out of this country to fight against their will. If the day ever comes when men will not fight when their country is at deathgrips, it will be because the country is rotten to the core, and not worth fighting for. If the enemy comes here it will not be a question of conscription at all, for every one, young and old, must take what comes to his hand, and die, if need be, in the attempt to defend the country. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP -- That is already provided for. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- As the Prime Minister reminds me, we have already provided in the Defence Act for compulsory service for Home Defence. The right honorable member for Swan, who does not believe in conscription, has provided for it. Conscription is stamped all over him, and it will probably be found engraven on his heart. I move - >That question 7 he left out. Amendment agreed to. Amendments (by **Mr. Hughes)** agreed to- >That in question 9a the words "prior to 30th June " be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words' " immediately prior to 30th June, 1915." > >That the following new question be inserted: - 11a. State number and description of firearms and quantity of ammunition you possess. {: #subdebate-20-0-s8 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I do not propose to move any amendment on the lines I suggested just now, because, if I did, I should be as one crying in the wilderness; but I do urge upon the Government that, before this Bill goes through another place, they should consider the suggestions that I have made for obtaining additional information. Nothing was further from my mind than the idea of raising any controversy regarding conscription in the suggestions I made as to the direct question as to service being asked. May I repeat, as the AttorneyGeneral has pointed out over and over again, that this Bill is to organize the people ? Surely, when we are going to spend a large sum of money, as we are in this work, we should secure the greatest, amount of organization possible. How can we get better organization than by finding out exactly the men who are prepared to go to the front? Thousands and thousands of affirmative answers may be expected to that question. Some of thesemen will be engineers, some clothweavers - men whose services will be of more value here, and whose desire to go should be known to the Government. Are not these men worth discovering? {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- Do you intend to call upon them if they are willing to go? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, that is my idea. We shall have a solid army of volunteers. What in the name of fortune is to prevent these men from going on with their ordinary avocations until the country is ready to equip them and send them to the front ? {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- They are ready now. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I know they are; but if you know where they are you can bring them in in something like orderly sequence. You can have them at the rate of 1,000 a week if you like. You can bring them in in certain classes, or you can eliminate the married men. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- But you forget that the Bill is not for that purpose. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- That is conscription. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No, it is not conscription. It is organization - the very essence of organization. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- To do that would be to kill the whole thing. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I cannot see why it should. Surely to goodness the men who are willing to go are willing to say they will go. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- They are saying it now. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I know they are; that is the whole trouble, in my opinion. I believe that within the next few weeks thousands and thousands of men from all parts of Australia will come flocking to the colours. They will have to be put into camp and provided for, and the Government are not in a position to do that or to equip them straightway.Why not do as I suggest? {: #subdebate-20-0-s9 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! I have no desire to unduly limit the debate, but the question before the Chair is whether the schedule, as amended, should be agreed to. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am endeavouring to show that more additions should be made to the schedule; but I will leave the matter there. Additional questions ought to be inserted to elicit information as to the number of people, now working at other avocations who are willing and able to carry on other necessary work. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I think something might be done to meet the honorable member's idea by the issue of posters asking the people who are willing to give information on that point to do so. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- All I want is that we should get the best possible results from this census. I believe in organization. I think that we should have done this long ago. {: .speaker-KR8} ##### Mr Sharpe: -- You would not get any member on this side to support a clause of that description. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do not see why I should not. In my opinion, it should have been done long ago. Perhaps the suggestion of the Attorney-General will meet the particular point to which he referred, but we do need to organize, and the further we carry that organization, the better it will be. Schedule, as amended, agreed to. Second Schedule - {: #subdebate-20-0-s10 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - These amendments will be an improvement on the schedule as it stands. {: #subdebate-20-0-s11 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- Will the Attorney-General make it perfectly clear that persons furnishing. returns as to income will be permitted to make the necessary deductions in respect of expenditure incurred in earning that income? In other words, will he make it clear that the net, and not the gross, income has to be given? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I thought that the amendments proposed by me would make that clear. If they do not, we shall see that the necessary amendment is made. Amendments agreed to. Schedule, as amended, agreed to. {: #subdebate-20-0-s12 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - >That the following new clause be inserted: - 6a. Every person, who is the trustee of more than one estate, shall fill up and transmit to the Statistician a separate form, containing the information set forth in the Second Schedule to this Act in respect of each estate of which he is trustee. The proposed new clause is designed to cover trustee companies, as well as cases where a man is a trustee for a number of estates. It provides that each estate shall be set out separately; otherwise, we might have a big trustee company setting out the aggregate of the estates held by it, instead of. furnishing a separate return for each estate. Proposed new clause agreed to. Amendment (by **Mr. Hughes)** agreed to - >That the. following new clause be inserted : - 8a. Every person or authority who exercises any powers under the Census and Statistics Act 1005 may exercise the like powers for the purposes of this Act. {: #subdebate-20-0-s13 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - >That the following new clause be inserted: - 8b. (1) Any officer authorized in writing by the Minister may, at any time, enter upon and search any premises. > >The power of an officer to search shall extend to every part of the premises, and shall authorize the opening of any safe, vault, or place. > >No person shall obstruct, molest, resist, or hinder any officer in the performance of his duty under this section. > >Penalty : Fifty pounds. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- What is the purpose of this proposed new clause? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- It is intended to deal more particularly with safe deposit companies. Proposed new clause agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with amendments. Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed- through its remaining stages. House adjourned at 5.46 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 16 July 1915, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1915/19150716_reps_6_77/>.