House of Representatives
17 June 1915

6th Parliament · 1st Session

  1. House of Representatives
  2. 6th Parliament
  3. 1915

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 4095

QUESTION

MUNITIONS OF WAR

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

.- The honorable member for Flinders asked me yesterday afternoon if I would make a statement to the House about what has been done regarding the manufacture of munitions of war in Australia, and, with the leave of the House, I shall now supplement what the Minister of Defence and the Assistant Minister have said on this subject.

The present Government assumed the responsibility of Commonwealth administration in the middle of September, 1914. At that time no steps had been taken to provide for the manufacture within Australia of either ordnance or ammunition therefor. The Government decided that it was desirable we should be self-contained in that respect, and that, if possible, we should be able to manufacture the 18-pounder quick-firing gun and the various kinds of ammunition used by that weapon.

Accordingly, on 30th September, 1914, we cabled to the Home Government asking for full details of manufacture of that gun and ammunition, including fuses, also whether foremen of works could be supplied to supervise the manufacture. On the previous day the High Commissioner was similarly notified, and asked to endeavour to procure from the trade foremen of works who understood the manufacture of fuses, shells, cylinders, and guns. The Home Government replied, on the 7th October, intimating that the Army Council was unable at the time to spare the special officer who would be required to prepare the lengthy details of manufacture of the 18-pounder gun and ammunition, nor could they spare- the services of any foremen. The Home Government suggested that we should send a deputation to England to study the whole question, and lay out for and obtain the necessary plant.

The Government acted on this advice, and a few days after the receipt of the last-mentioned cable instructed the High Commissioner that it was not possible to send the suggested deputation, but that the Minister of Defence had appointed Major B. A. G. Watts, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery, and Captain A. J. Coghill, Armament Officer, and at the time attached to the High Commissioner’s office - both officers of considerable artillery experience - to thoroughly study the question and report the necessary steps as soon as possible. Sir George Reid was requested to solicit the aid of the War Office in these inquiries. On 18th November the full despatch arrived from the War Office amplifying the cable of 7th October to the extent that the Chief Superintendent of Ordnance Factories could supply to the Commonwealth Government parts of the 18-pounder shell and cartridge case at various stages of manufacture, and samples of the fuse. “ These, with specifications and drawings,”’ it was added, “would be of assistance to one who had studied their manufacture, but previous study would certainly be essential.” The Superintendent of Ordnance Factories was emphatic on the point that no foremen could be spared to any Dominion. He had not enough for his own services.

On the 9th November the High Commissioner had advised that he had consulted with the trade, and had found that no foremen of works were available, every qualified man being required in England. He added that Major Watts and Captain Coghill would make little progress in obtaining details of their investigations owing to the . heavy pressure preventing experts having time to advise.

The Minister thereupon approved that neither time, energy, nor money should be spared in placing the Commonwealth in a position to make artillery ammunition. Meantime the Minister of Defence had been pursuing his inquiries in the Commonwealth on the subject. On the 18th November he secured estimates from the assistant manager of the Small Arms Factory of the cost of establishing a complete plant for manufacturing quick-firing 18-pounder ammunition. The estimated cost was £98,175, representing £83,175 for plant and £15,000 for buildings. At the same time the High Commissioner was told that the Government desired every endeavour made to overcome obstacles ‘ in the way of obtaining the desired information, and that Major Watts and Captain Coghill were to report their progress monthly. The necessity for urgency was again referred to. Captain Coghill was given facilities to visit the Royal Ordnance Factories, but on 26th December the Army Council intimated that it itself desired to use Major Watts’ valuable services “ until the end of the war.” Captain Coghill’s progress reports on manufacture of quickfiring 18-pounder ordnance have since been received.

The Government resolved to wait no longer, and the High Commissioner was cabled, on 31st December, to obtain quotes for the manufacture of complete plant for manufacturing 18-pounder ammunition - 200 rounds daily - for forging and finishing,.fuse making, power plant not included ; payment to be made on turn-out of first 100 rounds. A reply was received from the High Commissioner that the work was in hand. On the 10th April, intimation of the first offer was received by cable, details to follow by post. On the 10th May, an intimation of another offer came to hand. That is the position with regard to the manufacture by Government agency of ordnance and ammunition.

Statements as to the necessity for increasing the supply of high explosive projectiles led to the question of their manufacture here by existing works which, although designed for more peaceful purposes, might possibly be pressed into service. Accordingly, in February, the Minister got in touch with Mr. McKay, a local manufacturer, and others.

On 29th May last the High Commissioner was asked to forward, as soon as possible, . specifications of steel manufacture, as well as drawings of 18- pounder high explosive and shrapnel shell. These are now awaited. Component parts of the shell have been submitted to the inspection of local manufacturers, but they agree that they cannot ascertain the quality of the steel, until specifications and formula are available.

In order that all possible energies may be bent in the direction of supply of munitions, the Minister of Defence has appointed a committee, consisting of expert officers of the Naval and Military Forces of the Commonwealth, together with a leading manufacturer - Mr. S. McKay - and a representative of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited, as consultative members, to consider -

  1. the supply of material to the Government by Australian manufacturers;
  2. the Government manufacture of war materiel; and
  3. contracts between the War Office and Australian manufacturers.

Further, the associated Chambers of Manufactures have been asked to appoint a responsible committee, to be constituted to organize the various trades, collect information as to plant, and capacity of same, and thereby assist in the same direction. Numerous offers of plant, &c., by private firms have been received, and are being considered by the committee. Several of the State Governments have offered to assist in any way possible, and have placed their officers at the disposal of the Commonwealth Government. I can add that the matter will be pushed on with all possible expedition.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– By leave, I wish to say that I was not aware that the Prime Minister would supplement the statement which was made last night, and I congratulate him on his wisdom in doing so. When. I read the statement made last night, I felt that it was utterly inadequate in every sense of the word. May I be quite frank, and say that I doubt very much whether the Ministry yet realize the present position of affairs. Anyhow, the fact remains that after ten months of Herculean effort-

Mr Jensen:

– We inquired into something that you failed to inquire about, anyhow !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– After ten months of Herculean effort nothing has been done. The proposal as made now appears to me to be absolutely inadequate for the purposes of this war. What is it that the Government propose after cogitating over the matter all these months - a plant to cost £98,000. And they have not yet got the plan of the shell they propose to make. They have not yet the remotest idea when or how they are going to make shells at all.

Mr Jensen:

– Did you inquire into it?

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order !

Mr Jensen:

– This is more than a statement; it is an accusation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I did not get up to make a statement. I got up to make some remarks by the permission of the House, and if I am not permitted to make them now I shall sit down and take another opportunity of making them. I want to say, in reply to the Assistant Minister of Defence, that his attitude in this House recently has been anything but what it ought to have been in connexion with this war. If recent events have proved one thing more than any other it is that there should be a responsible Minister of Defence in this House. We can get no information regarding the war. It takes weeks to get even the simplest question answered, and I say the time is fast approaching when this House ought to insist upon a Minister for Munitions, or for War, or whatever you like to call him, being here, clothed with full responsibility, and possessing a proper and full knowledge, so that he may answer the questions that are put to him upon the requirements of the moment. That is my reply to the honorable member. I think he would do better to keep quiet.

Mr Jensen:

– Not at all.

Mr West:

– Are you going to sling mud ab him, and not allow him to answer ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

-Is that slinging mud - to complain that we can get no information ? I say you cannot begin to discuss this question from the bottom until you can get information, full, free, and ample, placed at the disposal of honorable members of this House. I am afraid we shall never get that under our present Defence arrangements. Before going any further, I should like to say that the sooner the Ministry get a responsible Minister of Defence in this House - let them make the honorable member the responsible Minister if they care to do so - the better. They will get the full and unanimous approval of the Opposition in any proposal of the kind, but a responsible Minister of Defence we must have in this House in order that the country may be made aware of what is actually taking place, and of what steps are being taken by the Department to meet the terrible crisis over the seas.

Mr Fisher:

– Does the right honorable gentleman assume that the Assistant Minister does hot know all ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am making no reflection upon the Assistant Minister. That is the furthest thought in my mind.

Mr Jensen:

– I am glad to hear that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– But the right honorable gentleman knows that we never ask a question without being told to put it on the paper while the Honorary Minister goes out to get information to enable him to reply to it. The statement he made last night was a statement he had been authorized to make by the Minister of Defence. Wo want more than that in this Chamber. The other Chamber does not sit for weeks together-

Mr Jensen:

– Lord Kitchener sits in the House of Lords.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Lord Kitchener has a secretary in the other House, but there is this difference - that Mr. Tennant is able to discuss these matters in the House of Commons in a responsible way, and has not to run out of the House to ask Lord Kitchener before he can even answer a question or supply the simplest information.

Mr Higgs:

– When you were in office your Minister of Defence was in the same position.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I know- but the war was not on then.

Mr Finlayson:

– Is this the product of your Caucus this morning?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am sorry that everything we do is misapprehended. I am now making a suggestion to the Government which I think would add infinitely to the efficiency of the Department. I hope that is what the Government want. They say they want help from this side of the House. They say they want suggestions. I am making one now - a fundamental suggestion, one which, in my judgment, goes to the bottom of the whole trouble.

Mr Hughes:

– That would necessitate legislation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Which could be put through in one day. My advice to the Government is to make another Minister of War. Such an appointment is long overdue. It is badly needed. It is indeed a fundamental requirement in this Chamber. You cannot expect the Assistant Minister of Defence, doing the work the honorable member is doing, to meet immediately the situation as it unfolds itself from hour to hour or from day to day. I will now deal with the statement made by the right honorable the Prime Minister. I am sorry to have been drawn off it. and vet I am not sorry, for I wanted to make the suggestion I have made, and I commend it to the consideration of the Government. I ask them to consider very carefully and seriously whether they should not take steps immediately to create another Minister of War, with a very definite allocation of duty. I will now deal with the statement read by the right honorable the Prime Minister, and I think I could detect at the very beginning the words which indicated clearly the intention of the Government. This proposal is not meant to affect the course of the war at all, but to make Australia self-contained in the matter of war munitions.

Mr Higgs:

– You do not believe in that?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do; but it seems to me, in view of the circumstances that have occurred, that this point could have been considered at any time rather than as an urgent matter of war preparation; and it seems to me as though the Imperial Government regarded it in that light when they suggested that workmen should be sent to England to go through a course of study. “ We have not a foreman to send over to you,” they said; “ if we send a foreman over he could do nothing that would affect the course of the war.” So they said, “ Send your men over here, and we will teach them all we can.” The result of what is proposed will be that by the time the war is over, perhaps some years hence, we shall have a munitions factory in the Commonwealth. I submit there are many things the Government can do if they are so anxious to pursue this matter. Are there no foremen in the world anywhere who can make shells apart from those employed by the War Office ? I venture to say that any expert shell-maker in the world”, if given specifications of a shell to be made out here, could proceed at once with its manufacture.

Mr Jensen:

– The right honorable member must know that one of the component parts of the shell is a secret in the possession of the War Office.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Exactly. I suppose that the Minister is endeavouring to be supplied with that secret? Has he yet obtained it? We cannot make a shell out here until we know what are its component parts. What is the force of the honorable member’s interjection? Have the Government obtained this secret, and if they have not, then what does this statement amount to, as the result of their ten months of effort?

Mr John Thomson:

– What is the good of building the factory if they have not the secret of manufacture ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Quite so. If the Government are supplied with the specification of the shell, then any expert shellmaker can compound it, and the Government need not take one man from the

War Office. No doubt the War Office is overworked; but let me remind Ministers that they have at their disposal the resources of not only the War Office, but the whole world. If they are turned down by the War Office, they should try to obtain from it the specification of the shell to be manufactured, and plans of the machinery to make the shells. It seems to me that it ought not to be difficult to secure the men to do the work.

Mr Gregory:

– How does the action of the Government compare with that of the Canadian Government?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I suppose that Canada has been supplied with the secret. She is nearer the Old Country than we are, and has helped herself to a knowledge of the whole matter.

Mr Thomas:

– Canada is a good deal nearer Great Britain than we are.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– A few weeks nearer, but do not forget that we have experts at the other end of the world.

Mr Jensen:

– The right honorable member once held office as Minister of Defence. Why did he not secure this secret for the guidance of the Department 1

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I held office as Minister of Defence five years ago, and the Minister might just as well ask me why I did not then alter the course of the present war. Ifhe makes many more interjections of the kind, he will show conclusively that he is not fit for the position he occupies. The Government are proposing to turn out 200 rounds of ammunition per day, or. in other words, just enough ammunition per day to supply one battery. And this is all they can propose, after ten solid months’ consideration of the subject. The result of their efforts during this period is practically ml. We really have no results. We have not a specification of the shell; we have no information as to the secret component parts, we are told ; and we have not a plan of the machinery.

Mr Higgs:

– And this is how the Leader of the Opposition is helping Australia - by talking to the enemy !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– If I am talking to the enemy, then the censor, if he knows his business, will take care that my words do not reach him. I have yet to learn, however, that, in calling attention to our great lack of munitions, to the great lack of men at the front, and to the great lack of equipment, I am doing anything to acquaint the enemy with that which he does not already know.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928

– Mr. Lloyd George is doing the same thing every day.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Day and night he is pointing to these facts with all the eloquence and power he can command.

Mr Webster:

– He is doing so now.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– And has been doing so since the onset of the war. There has never been such a vigorous propaganda waged in England as has taken place since the beginning of the war. Our great needs in this war are munitions, equipment, rifles and men. I therefore urge the Prime Minister to take into consideration this very serious matter of the control of the Defence Department. If he will follow my advice, he will have in this House a Minister clothed with full responsibility, who will be able to speak on Defence matters with a full knowledge of the facts, and on his own responsibility, but subject always, of course, to the Cabinet. We should have such a Minister to place us in full possession, as far as it is prudent to do so, of the information that we want.

Mr Fisher:

– Is this an attack on the Assistant Minister of Defence ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– No; I cannot understand such an inquiry. When we make a suggestion, we are at once asked whether we are making an attack on the Assistant Minister of Defence.

Mr Fisher:

-I was merely asking for information, thinking that the Leader of the Opposition might be misunderstood.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am proposing that the Prime Minister shall have another Minister in this House to help him, and that that Minister shall be clothed with full responsibility. I have yet to learn that such a proposal constitutes an attack upon any Minister. All that I say is that the Assistant Minister of Defence is not at present clothed with a proper responsibility to this House, and therefore cannot discharge his functions as he would otherwise do. There are other matters to which I should like to call attention, but I shall have presently another opportunity to do so. Meantime, if the Opposition can help in any way whatever, I hope that the Government will command us.

Mr Higgs:

– Help the Government by putting over forty questions on the noticepaper, in order to delay business, as has been done to-day!

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– One question on the notice-paper concerns a motion submitted .some time ago by my honorable friend, in which he demanded the cutting down of the Defence vote. I am to be blamed, it seems,’ in the country for that action on his part.

Mr Higgs:

– The right honorable gentleman said it was a very good motion, and he supported it.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Leader of the Opposition has been granted leave to make a statement, and may reply to interjections from any part of the House. I have no power to restrict bis remarks in any way. I therefore ask honorable members to allow the right honorable member to make his statement without interruption.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– At the proper time and place, I hope to call attention to what I consider to be the main trouble in connexion with this matter. If it is probed to the bottom, it will be seen that, instead of making a serious effort to push on with war preparations, the Ministry, throughout, have been aiming at nothing more than the setting up of more Government factories. Instead of calling in private enterprise in a bond fide way to help them in the supply of war materiel, the Government, as shown by the Ministers’ own statements, have aimed all through at setting up a Government institution for the production of munitions of war. What does that mean ? Take the Geelong Woollen Mills. A site was selected three years ago, and yet the mill is not ready.

Mr Jensen:

– The right honorable gentleman’s Government held it up.

Mr Ozanne:

– For six months.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Hear these yelpers shouting! After three years, the woollen mills are not ready to make an ounce of clothing, while the Small Arms Factory, the machinery for which was ordered five years ago, is not working as it should be. I venture to say that the l-3ss we have to do with the cultivation of social experiments in these war days, when the fate of the Empire is at stake, the better it will be for all concerned. ‘

Mr Brennan:

– That is not what Sir Edward Grey has said.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not know what Sir Edward Gray has said, but I do know that to-day Mr. Lloyd George is concentrating the whole of his attention on the organization of the private enterprise of Great Britain for the purpose of producing war materiel.

Mr Burns:

– Because private enterprise has failed in that direction.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not wish to be drawn into a discussion upon the merits of private enterprise or Government enterprise; I am only pleading that the Government should get both in full working order at the earliest possible moment. There should be only one object in view, and that is to multiply munitions and multiply men, and get them over the seas at the earliest possible moment. May I remind honorable members of what is taking place to-day? We have sent away 57,000 men, of whom 13,000 are now on the water, and, since we began to send men away, I reckon the casualties, including sickness, at, at least, another 12,000. Add to these the Medical Unit. Now all these deductions mean that we have less than 30,000 men in the firing line, including the Base Staff and men on the lines of communication. Do honorable members think that this is an adequate contribution to the war?

Mr Jensen:

– Every week we are sending away ships with soldiers.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– True; we are sending them away every week, but we are recruiting at about half the rate of casualties.

Mr Jensen:

– That is not so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The Minister of Defence may be saying one thing and doing another, but the other day he told tha people in the press that we required 5,300 recruits a month. When men are being knocked out at the rate of 10,000 a month, how long can this last 1

Mr Jensen:

– Many of the men are but slightly wounded, and return to the firing line.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not need to be told that that statement is true, because I am glad to say that my own sou has gone back to the firing line; but it does not get away from the fact that I arn putting - that not half enough men are going, and that munitions are not coming along sufficiently quickly. What is to be done about the Small Arms Factory? There is the crux of the whole matter.

Mr Hannan:

– Is not the statement of the right honorable gentleman that 10,000 casualties are occurring monthly exaggerated ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am afraid that it is not.

Mr Jensen:

– The total of casualties to date is only something over 7,000, covering a period of two months.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– My statement was that, since the war began, or since we began to send men away, we could deduct from the total sent away 12,000 as the number of casualties, including sickness and everything else, and I am not so sure that at the present time the casualties do not amount to 10,000 all told.

Mr Burns:

– The right honorable mem. ber said 10,000 a month.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes, and I mean 10,000 a month. The figures given by the Assistant Minister include the wounded and killed only, but the Minister knows that there is also a very big wastage, which is constantly going on. I am merely trying to show that what the Ministers have in mind is not nearly adequate to meet tho present position of affairs- If the casualties are to continue on the present scale, as compared with the reinforcements we are sending forward, it will not be very long before we have not much of an army at the Dardanelles. Surely we can be better employed in facing these facts together than in indulging in party squabbling and party warfare.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– The honorable member’s speech has been nothing but a party speech.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It may be that I am making a party speech . according to honorable members, but I intend to trust to my own judgment, and I say, before my Maker, that I am not conscious of doing so. I defy any honorable membar to point to a sentence of mine which can bear such a construction. It is time honorable members on the Government benches ceased this cry of “ Wolf !” They are doing injury to the country by these spurious cries. The situation, as I ase it, is far too serious for anything like that. J say to the Government here and now, with all the earnestness at my command, and with the party behind me in full con- currence with every word I am saying - let us concentrate all our efforts on this problem of getting more men to the front and finishing the war, and let us set aside our party squabbling to a more convenient season.

page 4101

LIBRARY COMMITTEE

Report presented by Mr. Speaker and ordered to be printed.

page 4101

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS: COST OF DEFENCE

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

– The Leader of the Opposition in his remarks just now seemed to desire to convey to the general public that I had done something very wrong, and something with which he disagreed, and, believing that I have been put in an unfair light, I wish to draw attention to page 4488 of Hansard of the 16th December, 1913, which shows that on that occasion I moved- “That Division No. 40 (of the Defence Estimates) be reduced by the sum of £1 as a direction to the Government that this Committee desires the reduction of the Military and Naval Defence vote by the sum of £500,000.” I gave my reasons at some length, and the Leader of the Opposition, who was then Prime Minister, when speaking to the matter, said-

I compliment the honorable member who morell the amendment on the manner in which he hits acted. He might easily have moved a larger reduction, and thus might have embarrassed the Government. I understand that he desires the amendment to be regarded as a direction to the Government to reduce these Estimates by £500,000. That is a very large order to execute within six months, mid I cannot promise that a full £500,000 will bc saved. But Ministers think that they can see their way to reduce the Estimates very materially during the next six months, without embarrassing’ the scheme in the slightest degree.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I also rise to make a personal explanation. The honorable member for Capricornia stopped reading from Hansard at the point where it was convenient for him to do so, but, even though the statement he read were allowed to stand by itself , I should not have a word to say in palliation of what I said on that occasion, which was that we could see our way to make economies without embarrassing the scheme in the slightest degree. I continued, however -

We cannot agree to the modification of the scheme in such particulars as the periods of training.

Honorable members on the Government side desired to curtail those periods.

Mr Higgs:

– Is this a personal explanation ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– In justice to myself, I am supplying the facts which the honorable member omitted from his quotation. I went on to say -

But we think that we see our way to substantially reduce its cost this year. Indeed, we must do so. My honorable friends opposite have already cut off £300,000. . . . We must accept the reduction of our expenditure by £300,000, brought about by the amendment of the Loan Bill, and we think that we can make savings which will go far towards that.

Then the right honorable member for Wide Bay said -

I am not in favour of spendthrift expendi ture in respect of Defence, and while I admit that some ‘money may have been wasted in initiating what is undoubtedly a great scheme, I believe that, on the whole, wehave obtained good results for our expenditure. No country has been able to show within such a short period of its initiation such an efficient sea andland defence scheme as that to which we can point. Whatever ideas of economy the Government may have, I hope that they will take cure to do nothing that will cripple the system or impair in any way its efficiency.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– We have not the slightest intention of doing anything of the kind.

page 4102

PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE

Report on the installation of additional machinery for increasing the output of the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow, presented by Mr. Riley.

Ordered to be printed.

page 4102

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Inter-State Commission Act -

Inter-State Commission - Tariff Investigation Reports -

Pickles, Sauces, and Spices.

Portland Cement.

Shale Oil.

Soap and Soap-making Materials.

War, The - H.M. Australian Fleet - Extracts from Report to Admiralty - by ViceAdmiral Commanding.

Ordered to be printed.

page 4102

QUESTION

PRICES OF COMMODITIES

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– Is the Minister of Trade and Customs yet in a position to answer the following question which appeared on the notice-paper yesterday? : -

Whether, in view of the statement by the right honorable the member for Parramatta that, “ although there were five Labour Governments in power in Australia the cost of living was higher than previously,” the Minister will inform the House and thecountry of the difference in the prices of the following commodities (as samples) in New South Wales (Labour Government) and Victoria (anti-Labour Government) : - Bread, butter, flour, sugar, meat, milk, eggs, fish?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s! question is in the form of a tabulated return, which I shall hand to Hansard.

Note. - Although Broken Hill is in New South Wales, it is stated that prices depend more upon South Australian conditions than those portaining to New South Wales. {: .page-start } page 4103 {:#debate-6} ### MEAT IN COLD STORAGE {: #debate-6-s0 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
ALP -- I promised the House that I would have a return prepared from time to time showing the meat in cold storage in approved places for export. The following return shows the position on the 5th June: - {: .page-start } page 4103 {:#debate-7} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-7-0} #### EXPEDITIONARY FORCES Casualties {: #subdebate-7-0-s0 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- On the 10th June the right honorable member for Parramatta asked me whether all Australian casualties at the Dardanelles are first reported to the Imperial Government before they are reported to the Commonwealth Government? The following answer has been supplied by the Defence Department: - >So far as this Department is aware, the. officer at Alexandria, who is responsible for dealing with casualty reports of Australian soldiers who have left Egypt for the front, advises this Department direct as soon as he is in possession of the information. > >Any delay which occurs is probably due to the conditions under which the lists have to be compiled by the authorities at the scene of operations, and the uncertainty of the communications between the Dardanelles and Egypt {: #subdebate-7-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- The reply is that the officer reports the casualties direct to the Commonwealth Government as soon as he is in possession of the information. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- But how does he get the information ? Is it first sent to the Imperial authorities? {: .page-start } page 4103 {:#debate-8} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-8-0} #### LAND TAX RETURNS {: #subdebate-8-0-s0 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that the Department of Taxation requires attested statements showing for the last four years details of gross and net returns from land before considering an application for relief? 1. In view of the fact that one year's drought may be disastrous, will he consider the advisability of accepting returns for one year as sufficient to entitle a land-owner to relief? 2. Will he sec that such relief is granted in the speediest possible way,' and so relieve drought-stricken land-owners of the necessity for paving interest on the amount paid in land tax? {: #subdebate-8-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. One year's statement of account is not sufficient to show whether the returns from the land are seriously impaired. A comparison must be made with previous returns to show whether the 'returns fall seriously short of the returns for a normal year. 2. No time is being lost in preparing these eases for consideration. The taxpayers are relieved of the necessity for paying the tax pending consideration of their 'claims for relief. The question of interest, therefore, docs not arise. {: .page-start } page 4103 {:#debate-9} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-9-0} #### OLD-AGE PENSIONERS {: #subdebate-9-0-s0 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 asked the Treasurer, *upon notice -* >In view of the Commonwealth paying oldage pensions, and in view of **Sir George** Turner's promise that no person should be gaoled in Victoria whose only crime is poverty, would the Treasurer request the Victoria Minister of Justice to inform magistrates that the old-age pensioners do not come under the usual stigma of having no visible means of support? {: #subdebate-9-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- If the honorable member will kindly supply me with some further details, I will be glad to communicate with the Premier of Victoria. {: .page-start } page 4103 {:#debate-10} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-10-0} #### STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER Defence Expenditure {: #subdebate-10-0-s0 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether his attention has been called to a statement in the *Warrnambool Standard* to the following effect, viz.: - "A year ago a motion which he denounced was made hy the then Government for a reduction of Defence expenditure "? 1. Did he make such a statement; and, if so, will he furnish the proof of it? {: #subdebate-10-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answer to the honorable member's questions is - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. I have seen the article in the newspaper mentioned which purports to be a report of some remarks made by me at a meeting of the Melbourne Chamber of Manufactures. A comparison of this report, with the reports contained in the two morning newspapers published in Melbourne, shows it to be inaccurate and incomplete in many particulars. I did not make a statement in the terms set forth in the honorable member's question; but, at the same time, I may point out that on pages 4480 to 4493 of *Hansard,* dated16th December, 1013, it willbe found that the then Prime Minister **(Mr. Cook),** accepted, on behalf of . his Government, a motion that the Estimates of the Department of Defence be reduced by £1, with a view to material economies being effected in the expenditure of that Department, and that I immediately opposed the decision of the Government, using those words: - " If we in the National Parliament, merely because of a cry of economy, which seems to enjoy a little popularity at the present time, interfere with the efficiency of either our land or sea defences, we shall make one of the gravest blunders that has ever been committed by any Legislature." "A saving of £500,000 would bo very desirable if it could be made without impairing the efficiency of our defence system, but the statesmen of a country must look first to its safety rather than to the saving of a few pounds." {: .page-start } page 4104 {:#debate-11} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-11-0} #### ARBITRATION COURT AWARDS Unionists and Non-unionists. {: #subdebate-11-0-s0 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that, despite the repeal of Regulation 1a, the Public Service Commissioner intends to pay non-unionists as well as unionists the rates prescribed under the awards of the Arbitration Court? 1. Is it a fact that the Public Service Commissioner's officers are preparing the salary sheets in that direction? 2. Is an award coming into operation on the 1st July next affected by the repeal of Regulation 1a in so far that no non-unionists will participate in that award? {: #subdebate-11-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. 1. No. 2. Yes; provided that the award of the Arbitration Court limits its application to members of the claimant organization. {: .page-start } page 4104 {:#debate-12} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-12-0} #### SECRETARY TO THE DEFENCE DEPARTMENT {: #subdebate-12-0-s0 .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr JOHN THOMSON: asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* >Considering the increased amount of administrative work cast upon the officers of the > >Defence Department consequent upon the war, docs the Minister not consider the position requires the return of the Secretary of the Department, and will he consider the desirability of arranging accordingly? {: #subdebate-12-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- It is not considered that it is advisable to have frequent changes in the Administration of New Guinea. The Department is now seeking the assistance of some senior officers from other Departments, and if this becomes available the present arrangements will be satisfactory. {: .page-start } page 4104 {:#debate-13} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-13-0} #### OVERTIME : DEFENCE DEPARTMENT {: #subdebate-13-0-s0 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that there is a vast amount of overtime in the clerical part of the Defence Department, which is imperilling the health of the officers? and, if so - 1. In view of the great distress amongst the citizens of Melbourne, especially those employed in clerical work, will the Minister arrange for less overtime, and work to be given to the unemployed clerks? {: #subdebate-13-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. At the present juncture a certain amount of work in excess of ordinary hours is at times necessary by persons of all grades employed in the Defence Department. 1. Temporary assistance is being availed of to the fullest extent possible, but there is a certain class of work which, from its nature, cannot be allotted to temporary employees. {: .page-start } page 4104 {:#debate-14} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-14-0} #### PRICES OF FOOD AND GROCERIES {: #subdebate-14-0-s0 .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr OZANNE: asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is he aware that in a recent publication by **Mr. G.** H. Knibbs, the Commonwealth Statistician, in relation to prices of food and groceries, the following increases appear : - Melbourne, 8.1 per cent.; Adelaide, 4.2 per cent.; Brisbane, 2.0 per cent.; Sydney, 1.3 per cent.; Hobart, 0.7 per cent.; Perth, 0.5 per cent."? {: type="1" start="2"} 0. In view of the great increase in Melbourne will he take into consideration the introduction of such legislation as will give Melbourne equal rights with the other cities of Australia? {: #subdebate-14-0-s1 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. It is not considered that any legislation within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament could effect what is suggested by the form of the honorable member's question. {: .page-start } page 4105 {:#debate-15} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-15-0} #### PRESS CENSORSHIP {: #subdebate-15-0-s0 .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr WATT:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether he has read the article on page6 of *The Labour Call,* dated6th May, 1915, headed "Your Country Needs You"? 1. Whether he considers its publication should have been permitted? 2. Whether he will take steps to prevent such unpatriotic matter appearing in any journal during the currency of the war? {: #subdebate-15-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. 2 and 3. I am unable to say; it would be unreasonable to expect that I should constitute myself a censor as to what should or should not appear in the public press. {: .page-start } page 4105 {:#debate-16} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-16-0} #### MINISTERIAL REPRESENTATION IN CHAMBERS {: #subdebate-16-0-s0 .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Prime Minister, *uponnotice -* >Will ho consider the desirability of having the Defence Minister in the House of Representatives and the Minister of External Affairs in the Senate? {: #subdebate-16-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- It is not unusual to have the Minister of Defence in the Senate, and, under the circumstances, it does not seem wise policy at present to disturb existing conditions. {: .page-start } page 4105 {:#debate-17} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-17-0} #### KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY Offer of Construction : Plant : Expenditure {: #subdebate-17-0-s0 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA asked the Minister of Home Affairs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the Home Affairs Department has received, through the Prime Minister, an offer from **Mr. Joseph** Timms to take over and complete the construction of the east-west railway from end to end for the sum of £2,000,000 sterling? 1. Has the offer been considered by the Department or the Cabinet, and what was the decision? 2. Will the Minister lay on the table a copy of **Mr. Timms'** letter containing the offer addressed to the Prime Minister, dated 11th September, 1015? {: #subdebate-17-0-s1 .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr ARCHIBALD:
Minister for Home Affairs · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are- {: type="1" start="1"} 0. An offer of that nature was made by **Mr. Timms.** 1. It was decided not to accept the offer, as the policy of the Government was to construct such works departmentally. 2. I place upon the table of the House a copy of **Mr. Timms'** letter, and also report by the Engineer-in-Chief for Commonwealth Railways, showing that it was not desirable to adopt the proposal. {: #subdebate-17-0-s2 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Minister of Home Affairs, *upon notice -* >With reference to the plant acquired by his Department from Messrs. Cummins and Grant on the Kalgoorlie-Port Augusta line - > >What did the plant consist of? > >Whatwas the price paid for each item of the said plant? {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr ARCHIBALD: -- I would ask the honorable member to postpone this question for a week to enable me to obtain the details. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: asked the Minister of Home Affairs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What is the original estimate of the cost of construction of the east-west railway? 1. The expenditure to date? 2. The expenditure on rolling-stock, and description ? 3. The expenditure on land resumption for all purposes? 4. The expenditure on water provision, and the result? 5. The expenditure on buildings of various kinds? 6. The mileage for which sleepers and rails have not yet been delivered? 7. The present estimate of the total amount involved in the completion of the railway? {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr ARCHIBALD: -- I shall obtain the information, and lay it upon the table of the House in the form of a- return. {: .page-start } page 4105 {:#debate-18} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-18-0} #### SHORTAGE OF SUGAR {: #subdebate-18-0-s0 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >If he will inform the House what steps have been taken by the Government in regard to the shortage in the supply of sugar? {: #subdebate-18-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- With regard to importations, I refer the honorable member to the answer given by the Minister of Trade and Customs to the honorable member for Richmond. The matter of supplying shortage from new season's crop of Australian sugar is receiving the closest attention of the Attorney-General, and a further statement thereon will be made as soon as possible. {: #subdebate-18-0-s2 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What action does the Government propose to take in regard to the shortage in the sugar crop ? 1. Does the Government propose to remit the duty on sugar to be imported? 2. Is the Government aware of any arrangement between the Colonial Sugar Refining Company and the Government of New South Wales in regard to the importation of sugar? 3. Can the Government say at what price the Colonial Sugar Refining Company are willing to sell this sugar to the Government of New South Wales in bond? 4. Has the Government of New South Wales approached the Commonwealth Government, and requested it to remit the duty on sugar to be imported for New South Wales? 5. What action does the Government propose to take? {: #subdebate-18-0-s3 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. As information disclosed that the imminent shortage of sugar was limited in quantity, and that arrangements had been made by the" Colonial Sugar Refining Company to import an amount sufficient to meet that shortage, it was not considered desirable to make further importations, as these would necessarily displace the new season's Australian sugar crop. 1. Notice is not given of any Tariff alteration. 2. Yes, I was informed so by Hon. D. R. Hall, Attorney-General for New South Wales. 3. £25 per tonwas stated to be the price. 4. Yes. {: type="A" start="C"} 0. See reply to No. 2. {: .page-start } page 4106 {:#debate-19} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-19-0} #### TARIFF {: #subdebate-19-0-s0 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* >Whether, in view of the fact that Parliament has not yet been afforded an opportunity to express its views regarding the amended Tariff proposals of the Government, under which increased duties have for several months already been collected, he is in a position to state when the Tariff measures will be dealt with.? {: #subdebate-19-0-s1 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
ALP -- The Tariff will be dealt with as soon as possible. {: .page-start } page 4106 {:#debate-20} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-20-0} #### RAILWAY CARRIAGE OF MAILS {: #subdebate-20-0-s0 .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the PostmasterGeneral, *upon notice -* >Whether he will inform the House what was the total amount paid to the Railway Department of New South Wales for the conveyance of mails on their railway lines for the year 1013, and what they are receiving now? {: #subdebate-20-0-s1 .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE:
Postmaster-General · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The answer to the honorable member's question is - >The amount paid to the Railway Department of New South Wales for conveyance of mails on railway lines for the year 1913 was £121,811. > >The payment for year ending 30th June, 1915, will approximate £123,000. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: asked the PostmasterGeneral, *upon notice -* >Whetherhe will inform the House what subsidy he is paying the Railway Department of New South Wales for the conveyance of mails - > >Between Culcairn and Corowa? > >Between Culcairn and Germanton? > >Between The Rock and Lockhart? {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE: -- Inquiries will be made" and a reply furnished as early as possible. {: .page-start } page 4106 {:#debate-21} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-21-0} #### PREFERENCE TO UNIONISTS {: #subdebate-21-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* Whether it is the policy of the Government to prevent non-unionists being employed in providing munitions of war by enforcing the preference to unionists clause in all contracts for their supply? {: #subdebate-21-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answer to the honorable member's question is - The policy of the Government in all matters is that, other things being equal, the unionist is to get preference of employment. The Government is confident that members of trade unions and industrial organizations will be found just as prominent in offering their best services to their country in the manufacture of necessary munitions of war as they were in taking their places in the fighting line at the front. {: #subdebate-21-0-s2 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: asked the Minister of Home Affairs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether it is a fact that certain trade unions are closing, or have closed, their books against further membership? 1. Has not every trade union contributed its quota to the fighting line, thereby making gaps within its ranks that may be filled? 2. Does he not think that if any discrimina tion is being exercised, it should be in favour of married men? {: #subdebate-21-0-s3 .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr ARCHIBALD:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. . I am not aware. 1. Yes, unfortunately, a number of unionists who went to the front have been killed or wounded. 2. It is difficult to satisfactorily arrange; but where I can I favour work being given to married men. I understand the unions are working on those lines. {: .page-start } page 4106 {:#debate-22} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-22-0} #### MAIL CONTRACTORS {: #subdebate-22-0-s0 .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: asked the PostmasterGeneral, *upon notice -* Whether he will treat as urgent any application from a mail contractor for assistance to buy fodder in order to feed his horses, and so enable him to efficiently perform the work ho contracted to do? {: #subdebate-22-0-s1 .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE:
ALP -- The answer to the honorable member's question is - The Deputy Postmasters-General have been directed to inquire into each case in which a mail contractor claims to have been put to additional expense in carrying out his contract by reason of drought conditions, and, where the circumstances justify it, to immediately suitably increase the payments to the contractor, as from 1st January, 1915. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: asked the PostmasterGeneral, *upon notice -* >What number of mail contractors in New South Wales have been adversely affected by the curtailment of railway services in that State? {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE: -- Inquiry is being made, and a reply will be furnished as early as possible. {: .page-start } page 4107 {:#debate-23} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-23-0} #### NOTE CIRCULATION {: #subdebate-23-0-s0 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* >Is he in a position to give an estimate of the amount of Commonwealth notes likely to be in circulation at the end of the current year? {: #subdebate-23-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- £30,000,000. {: .page-start } page 4107 {:#debate-24} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-24-0} #### EXPEDITIONARY FORCES Pay and Allowances - Insurance - Delivery ok Casualty Telegrams. {: #subdebate-24-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Assistant' Minister, representing the Minister- of Defence, *upon notice -* >Whether the Government is prepared to follow the example of financial, insurance, and commercial institutions, and other private employers by making up the difference between civil and military pay in the case of Federal public servants with dependants who are willing to give their services for their country? {: #subdebate-24-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- The answer to the honorable member's question is - >Considering the liberal rates of pay and allowances and pensions, the cost of which is borne by the Commonwealth, there docs not seem sufficient reason for making up the difference between civil and military pay in the case of Federal public servants with dependants who are willing to give their services for their country. {: #subdebate-24-0-s2 .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 asked the Assistant Minister representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that officers of a State Public Service who volunteer for active service are reimbursed all the difference between their military pay and their pay as civil servants; whilst in the case of officers of the Federal Public Service who volunteer, the Commonwealth does not make good the deficiency between the two pays? 1. Is there any logical ground for this differential treatment? {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are- {: type="1" start="1"} 0. It was agreed, at the Premiers' Conference (11th August, 1914), that - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Public Service appointments held by persons joining the Australian Imperial Forces should remain open for them on their return to Australia, and that if, during the period of service with the Australian Imperial Force they would, under ordinary circumstances, have been granted increased pay, such increased pay may be granted to them on resuming duty in the Public Service. (I)) Such officers should receive only Expeditionary Force pay during service with the Australian Imperial Force. So far as is known, the Governments of all States have adhered to this arrangement except New South Wales, who, it is understood, arc granting to members of their Public Service serving with the Australian Imperial Force the difference, if any, between the Australian Imperial Force pay and pay of permanent position. The Commonwealth Government has also adhered to this agreement. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Considering the liberal rates of pay and allowances and pensions, the cost of which is borne by the Commonwealth, there does not seem sufficient reason for departing from the agreements referred to above. {: #subdebate-24-0-s3 .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr OZANNE: asked the Assistant Minister representing the Minister of. Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is he aware that the official list of payments to recruits provides that a. private will receive 6s. per day, a wife1s.5d. per day separation allowance," and 4½d. per day for each child under sixteen years of age? 1. Is he aware that this statement is incorrect, inasmuch as a private receives only 5s. when in camp; also that on his embarkation he cannot receive more than 8s. per day? 2. Is he aware that this rate, after allowing Is. 5d. to the wife, provides only 7d. for the children ? 3. Will he direct that correct information be circulated? {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are- {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 2. (a) No, the statement is not incorrect, inasmuch as the rate, 6s. per day on " active " service, takes effect as from date of embarkation; service in Australia not being for this purpose considered as active service. {: type="1" start="6"} 0. The purpose of separation allowance is to raise the daily rate of pay for a private to a sum not exceeding 8s. per diem, and it is essential to place such limitation on the rate, otherwise the next higher rank (a non-commissioned officer), whose dependants could not be in receipt of separation allowance, would be in receipt of less money than the private. 1. Yes. 2. The official lists of rates show 5s. per diem before embarkation, and6s. per day after embarkation. {: #subdebate-24-0-s4 .speaker-KRD} ##### Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA asked the AttorneyGeneral, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What has been the result of the conference with the Australian Mutual Provident Society with regard to the extra premiums charged upon the insurance of soldiers who have gone to the front? {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Is it a fact that insurance premiums falling due on the 7th June, a public holiday, and not received until the8th, were regarded as late, and that such policies were cancelled, and only restored on condition that policy-holders would promise not to enlist? {: #subdebate-24-0-s5 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No life assurance company was represented at the conference held yesterday; but I am communicating with the life assurance companies in reference to this matter. 1. Sec No. 1. {: #subdebate-24-0-s6 .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Assistant Minister representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether, in the event of telegraph or cable messages to relatives, particularly widowed mothers, reporting casualties from the seat of war, or through the Defence Department, the Government will have such messages delivered to the addressees without charging porterage as at present? 1. Will the Government make refunds to relatives of fallen soldiers of porterage charges already paid for such messages? {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Arrangements will be made with the PostmasterGeneral's Department for porterage, when necessary, to be charged to this Department. 1. No action can be taken to refund porterage already paid by addressees. {: .page-start } page 4108 {:#debate-25} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-25-0} #### NEEDY MAIL CONTRACTORS {: #subdebate-25-0-s0 .speaker-KYA} ##### Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the PostmasterGeneral, *upon notice -* Whether a sum has been set aside to assist needy mail contractors in the drought-stricken areas; if so, what amount? {: #subdebate-25-0-s1 .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE:
ALP -- Yes. The actual sum required cannot be stated until all the claims have been dealt with, but it is estimated that the total will approximate £50,000. {: .page-start } page 4108 {:#debate-26} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-26-0} #### PRICE OF SUGAR {: #subdebate-26-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the comparative price of sugar, as shown in the statement tabled by him on the 4th inst., viz.: - referred to the retail price of sugar? {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Is the Minister aware that the wholesale price of sugar during 1014-15 was considerably below the average for the previous five years? 1. What benefit did the sugar-grower get from the rise in price of sugar as shown in the Minister's statement? {: #subdebate-26-0-s1 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Retail price. 1. Yes. 2. It is impossible to answer as to any individual grower without full knowledge of the particular facts. {: .page-start } page 4108 {:#debate-27} ### REFERENDUM BILLS {: #debate-27-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. At what date does the Government propose to put the Referendum Bills, notice of which was given by the Attorney-General on the 16th inst., before the people? 1. Does the Government propose to push on the referenda campaign whilst the war is in progress ? 2. Can the Prime Minister say what benefit the carrying of the referenda would be to the people of Australia if Germany won the war? {: #debate-27-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. As early as convenient. 2.See answer to No. 1. 1. Opportunity will be given, during the debate on the matter, for discussion of the whole question. {: .page-start } page 4108 {:#debate-28} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-28-0} #### TASMANIAN ELECTORAL OFFICERS {: #subdebate-28-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Minister of Home Affairs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it intended by the Government to appoint Deputy Returning Officers in Tasmania corresponding to those appointed in the other States of the Commonwealth? 1. If so, when are steps likely to be taken? {: #subdebate-28-0-s1 .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr ARCHIBALD:
ALP -- It is not at present intended to appoint permanent Divisional Returning Officers in Tasmania, but action is being taken to give each Divisional Returning Officer the services of a permanent clerk, who will devote himself exclusively to electoral work. {: .page-start } page 4108 {:#debate-29} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-29-0} #### SUGAR SUPPLIES {: #subdebate-29-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Treasurer, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Whether the Government has taken any steps to assure the requisite supply of sugar to the people of Australia? 1. If so, what steps have been taken; and if nothing has been done, what do the Government intend doing in this matter, and when? {: #subdebate-29-0-s1 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- I gave a reply to a previous question On the same subject to-day by the honorable member for Franklin. I outlined the position, and said the matter is receiving the close attention of the Attorney-General; a further statement thereon will be made as soon as possible. {: .page-start } page 4109 {:#debate-30} ### SUPPLY BILL (No. 8) Prosecution of War : Party Cooperation : Equipment of Expeditionary Forces: Appointment of Minister of Munitions: Suggested National Committee : Enrolment Arrangements : Supply of Munitions: Small Arms Factory: Organization of Industrial Forces : Pay of Imperial Reservists - Invalid and Old-age Pensions : Issue of Periodical Certificates to Invalids: Errors in Applications - Mail Contractors: Scarcity of Fodder - Inspection and Export of Me a t - Intern ation al, Veterinary Congress - Labour Conference and Land Taxation. in *Committee of Supply:* {: #debate-30-s0 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- I beg to move - >That a sum not exceeding £2,122,467 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of theyear ending 30th June, 1915. This is the last of the series of Supply Bills to provide for the financial year closing on the 30th of this month. I think this is the first time in our history that we have not been able to get the Appropriation Bill through in time to provide for the public services before the end of the financial year. The payment of salaries is provided for at the close of the financial year in every part of Australia on the 24th June. It would be decidedly risky to await the passing of the Appropriation Bill before that date, and in the alternative it will be necessary to pass this Supply Bill through both Houses before the end of this week. It is merely a formal Bill, containing no new matter and no new proposal; but I have to inform the Committee that I have intimated to the Public Service Commissioner that the increments provided on the Estimates are to be paid. This Bill will enable that course to be followed, and it will absorb the whole amount of Supply which is to be included in the Appropriation Bill, less £1. The Appropriation Bill will go up to the. Senate when the Estimates are completed, and will give full and ample details of the whole of the proposals as they were set forth in the Budget speech and in the Estimates, so that this Bill will merely enable the obligationsof the Commonwealth to be met on the 24th of this month. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr Webster: -- Can I move that the question be now put? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I do not think it desirable to do so. {: #debate-30-s1 .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong -- This measure of Supply has been introduced after a motion on the part of the right honorable the Prime Minister that six motions standing in the name of the Attorney-General should be postponed to allow the present Bill to take precedence. These motions indicate legislation of a violently controversial character, and coming at a time like this, they appear to me to be an absolute disgrace to our notice-paper. The right honorable gentleman, in directing the conduct of business in this Parliament, has determined that nothingbut bitter controversial measures shall be placed before us at a time when we are all deeply obsessed with a supreme crisis - a crisis which involves the very existence of the Empire. Instead of concentrating the wisdom and thought of Parliament towards measures for the defence of the Empire, we are daily engaged in bickerings over party warfare, and in antagonising one portion of the House against the other. I do not think that my right honorable friend and his Government have any right to be proud of this course of action in the present crisis. It is quite true that at this last moment, by reason of promptings from this side of the House, but perhaps more directly by reason of vigorous and energetic action on the" part of the press, they have come to some sense of the importance of the existing momentous issue, and to that extent they have been awakened and stimulated into action. But the action that they are now taking is the action that ought to have been taken without any prompting some six or seven months ago. Instead of this Government leading and directing in the work of dealing with the existing crisis, it is left to private enterprise to show the way, and to demonstrate what can be done by well-directed industrial organization of the resources of this community. That, I say, is a deplorable spectacle. My right honorable friend, I am aware, has from time to time made pious declarations of what should be the attitude of Australia in the present crisis. These have remained pious aspirations and declarations. They have not been followed up by that action and energetic zeal in the prosecution of the vital and allimportant work necessary to secure the defence of Australia and the Empire. That is a regrettable condition of affairs, and it is the more regrettable and inexcusable when we remember exactly what has taken place elsewhere. We have had a splendid object lesson from France. We have had another from the Mother Country itself. It was realized by the great French nation, with whom we are proud to be in alliance, that the present is no time for party warfare - that this is a time when all should be for State and none for party; that it was no time for antagonizing one section of politics against the other, but a time when all should unite for the common good and in the interests of the nation. The attitude of France may be well illustrated by the eloquent words contained in the speech delivered by M. Viviani, the Prime Minister of that country, shortly after his formation of the National Ministry! . M. Viviani said - >In order to conquer, heroism on the frontier does not suffice. There must be union within. Let us continue to preserve the sacred union intact from every attempt made upon it. Today, as it was "yesterday, and_ as it will be to-morrow, let us have only one cry, Victory, only one vision before our eyes, " La Patrie," only one ideal - Right. It is for Right that we are striving, for which Belgium has poured out her blood, for which unshakable England, faithful Russia, intrepid Servia, and the gallant Japanese Navy are still striving. > >If this is the most gigantic war that history has ever known, it is not because nations are in arms to conquer new lands, to obtain material advantage or political or economic rights; it is because they are fighting to settle the fate of the world. Nothing more grand has ever appeared before .the eyes of men. Against barbarism and_ despotism, against a system of provocation and methodical menace which Germany called peace, against the system of murder and universal pillage which Germany calls war, against the insolent hegemony of a military caste which ha3 unchained its scourge, France, the liberator and avenger, with her Allies, has raised herself at one bound. > >The stakes are more than our lives. Let us *continue,* then, to work with n single mind, and to-morrow, in the peace of victory, when *politics have* been freed from the restraints which have been voluntarily placed upon them, we shall recall with pride these tragic days, for they will have made us more valiant and better. That is a truly patriotic and national note which should resound throughout the length and .breadth of the Empire. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Why did not the Opposition strike that note in connexion with the by-election for the Grampians? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- It is a note that we have never failed to strike. We have indicated again and again in this House our anxiety at all times to unite with the Government in passing measures having for their object the proper defence of this community. The Commonwealth has witnessed in this connexion a striking object lesson from the Mother Country, one that we are not justified in disregarding. The Liberal Government in Great Britain, comprising some of the ablest statesmen in the land, and supported by a substantial majority, after conducting the affairs of the war for something like seven months, realized that it was not justified in continuing the conduct of the war without the help of other parties. It felt that in this time of crisis, and having regard to the vital and momentous issues at stake, it was its duty to call into the councils of the nation the representatives of every party, and so obtain united action. It was in a truly patriotic spirit that **Mr. Asquith** approached the Opposition and asked for its co-operation. It has been most improperly suggested that we on this side of the House have sought to impose ourselves on the other side, and to secure office by the creation of a National Government. From the Opposition no suggestion of the kind has been made. There have been, however, indications that we ar* anxious to co-operate with the Government in the one great object of securing the united defence of the Empire. In these circumstances, we have a right to expect, a loftier attitude than has been taken up by the Government, and at least a suggestion from them as to how the representatives of the great Liberal party might co-operate with them in furthering our national defence. When we realize that in the Mother Country it was deemed essential, in the interests of the Empire, to form a National Council of War, we should not hesitate *to* do likewise. That is our clear and obvious duty. We have no right to minimize the seriousness of the position with which we are faced. It could not be graver than ' it is. If we contrast what has taken place in Australia with that which has taken place in Great Britain, and which has been justified by the experience of the Old Land, and of our noble and valiant ally France, we must recognise at once that we should be up and doing. What we have done in Australia has been but little credit to us. It is quite true that we have made a contribution, and a valuable contribution, to the defence of the Empire; but if we had 'realized, to the full, our responsibilities we should have had at the present moment at least 100,000 men continuously at the front. As it is, we have not there more than one-third of that number. The situation is very grave. We can almost hear the cry of our own nien in the trenches at Gallipoli, " Come and help us." *But* what is our response? We are saying, in effect, "We have no time for you; we .must devote the whole of our attention to pettifogging, paltry domestic affairs." Internal dissensions and party warfare are so important in the eyes of the Government and of this Parliament that we cannot devote the attention that we should give to the work of providing further help for our brothers in the trenches. The lives of our own people - the lives of the British people generally - are at the present moment in the gravest jeopardy. The people have a right to expect from us strong and united action. In order to show the extent to which the feeling of party warfare has obsessed the Government, it is only necessary to point out that Australia has never been more humiliated {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Hear, hear! With biting criticism ! {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- Australia lias never been more humiliated than she was a week or two ago when the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General, who should have been devoting the closest attention to war measures, left this House and wasted their precious and valuable time in attending a Conference to fix up some miserable, contemptible, party platform, the promulgation of which will plunge the community into bitter conflict and party strife. That was a humiliating spectacle. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- Surely it was better than holding race meetings! {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- There is very little to choose between the two. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Both, I think, are excellent. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- On top of all this Ave find that the Government arc obsessed with the idea that they are doing all that can be done in the existing circumstances. I regret that they should take up this attitude. It can be only a supreme, feeling of confidence amounting to an hallucination in the ability of one party to deal with the existing issues that permits the Government to continue the supine and negative policy which it is at present pursuing. We could have no more striking illustration of the inaction of the Government, as compared with private enterprise, than is furnished by the statement made by the Minister of Defence that some months ago he applied to the Mother Country for certain information which had not yet come to hand, whereas at the end of last month a private company in Australia applied for the same information, and received it within a few days, with the result that it was able at once to set about placing itself in a position to turn out munitions of war forthwith. This is a discreditable and regrettable incident so far as the Government are concerned. It shows an utter failure on their part to concentrate attention on the most important and vital questions. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- To what firm did the honorable member refer? {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- To the Broken Hill Proprietary Company. Some months ago Major-General French declared that what was wanted was munitions, more munitions, and still more munitions if the war was to be terminated at an early period. We have utterly failed to help the Mother Country to supply that want. Great Britain, realizing the seriousness of the position, created a National Ministry. There was also created the office of Minister of Munitions, and to that office was appointed, perhaps, the greatest statesman in the British Empire. **Mr. "** Lloyd George was relieved of the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which he had rendered most valuable service, in order that he might take over the duties of Minister of Munitions, and he set to work at once to organize the whole British community in the task of providing the necessary munitions of war. If we want to shorten this war, we must have, first of all, unity on the part of the Empire and its component parts. France and Russia have complete unity, and the same may be said of Great Britain. Here we need to secure a complete organization of our industrial resources, just as the organization of the industrial resources of flic Mother Country is being successfully brought about. It is, above all things, essential that there should he a concentration of effort, of zeal, and of energy on the part of the people and of the Government. **Mr. Lloyd** George declared the other day that we could not hope to shorten the present war and thereby save the lives of thousands and thousands of our men, unless we made it possible for the guns of the Allies to vomit forth continuously shot and, shell for forty days and forty nights. In this way alone, he declared, could we save the lives of many thousands of our men, who were in dire peril. In this way alone could we secure that victory for which we all hope. And what are we doing to bring it about? Do honorable members realize that during the last ten months we have failed to do anything? Do they realize that only now are we leisurely setting to work to do something with this object in View? I would urge the Prime Minister at least to take note of public opinion. Even if he refuses to take any cognisance of suggestions made by the Opposition, he should at least consider what has been strenuously placed before the community by the press as representing public opinion. We are indebted to the press of the community for valuable help in the present crisis. It has struck a truly national and patriotic note, and it has been to some extent responsible for the activity, little as it is, that is now being displayed by the Government. I, personally, think that the best results can be secured by the formation of a National Government or Council of War, but if that cannot be achieved, I have a right to appeal to the Prime Minister at least to declare that there shall be a party truce. We should realize that it is the common duty of all parties to join in securing the complete safety of the Empire. It should be our aim to defeat a formidable and un- scrupulous foe, realizing that if by any chance that foe secured the victory our freedom and liberty would be at an end. The safety of the Empire should be our supreme consideration at the present moment, and we, as loyal subjects, are called upon to do infinitely more than we have so far accomplished towards that end. We can best serve the purpose we have in view by sinking party warfare and taking united action. Instead of a party truce we have on the notice-paper violently controversial measures, and their introduction into, and passage through, Parliament means that Australia is, in the immediate future, to be plunged into party strife and warfare. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- In order to protect our people from local enemies. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST: -- It is our duty to protect our people from both local and external enemies, but our supreme duty at the present moment is to protect them from external enemies, and it is a task that requires our best and concentrated efforts. I appeal to the Prime Minister, and urge him to reconsider the whole position, > and accept ' the assurance from the Opposition of its anxiety, which has been demonstrated from the beginning of the session, to aid and help the Government in every possible way, and join with them in securing the safety of the Empire. We owe it to our Mother Country and to ourselves, and I am not making an unfair or unreasonable appeal when I ask that a party truce should at the present time be the policy of Australia. {: #debate-30-s2 .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera .- No honorable member could listen to the' speech just delivered by the honorable member for Kooyong without being' struck with the national note and patriotic sentiment running through it, and the desire on the part of the Opposition to help the Government in the present great crisis. It is fair that, aften ten months' of office, the Government should demonstrate what has been done by them in the way of making preparations to enable Australia to take her proper share in the fight. It is right that we should make the people of Australia, as well as the people of the world, aware that the National Parliament in Australia is applying its concentrated wisdom and experience to the object of doing everything possible to fight the enemy that is almost within our gates- Because in Australia we occupy a most parlous position - the most parlous of any part of the Empire - and instead of doing less than Great Britain in the endeavour to -bring this stupendous struggle in which we are engaged- to a successful finish, we should be doing more. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- We are not doing much less in proportion to population. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- In proportion to our population, if we were doing what the United Kingdom is doing, we would probably have 300,000 men in the field, and would not be indulging in controversial matters or violent party warfare until at least the concentrated energy of this Parliament and the whole nation had been focussed on the matter of war preparations in order to more effectively deal with the enemy. But the Commonwealth Government, after ten months of somnolence, have had to take a lead from people outside. Manufacturers in various parts of Australia are attempting to lead the Government in the supreme duty on which Ministers should be concentrating their energies. There are hundreds of thousands of patriotic citizens in Australia ready and anxious to do their very best to help the Government and the nation and the Empire and our Allies; but they are powerless without some lead being given to them by the Government. The Commonwealth Parliament should be the centre of organization in the matter of supplying munitions, and in the general preparations for the war; but it is not possible for this Parliament to lead the country and the whole of the forces of manufacture, production and commerce, unless there is unanimity among members on both sides of the House. If ever there was, in the history of the Commonwealth, a period when party warfare should cease until we have done our duty in connexion with war preparations, it was when the present war broke out. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Then how is it that the honorable member's party in Tasmania are contesting the seat for Bass when there is a general election eight months ahead? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- I am dealing with Federal politics at the present time. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Why did the honorable member's party contest the Grampians seat? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- We are perfectly entitled to see that our representation in this House is fair. I am speaking of Parliament as it is elected by the people. The honorable member for Kooyong in his very excellent speech, and the Leader of the Opposition, this afternoon, have suggested that there should be a Minister of Munitions in this House, who could devote the whole of his time to the task of securing supplies of munitions and equipment. I go even further. I would like to see a War Committee appointed to help the Minister of Defence in his war preparations. In the absence of a National Government, there is no more effective way in which the whole of the forces of the Commonwealth can be organized and directed than by having a Committee comprising honorable members of both sides of the House, which will make investigations into the resources of the Commonwealth, and get into communication with the various industrial and commercial organizations, and by means of subcommittees of the leading men in the various States bring to bear the whole system of such an organization to the service of the Government. I have had a little experience of the possibility, by investigation, of expediting the work of providing munitions. The Public Works Committee has made a very exhaustive investigation into the possibility of starting two shifts at the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow. That factory for the first few years had worked one eight-hour shift, which was afterwards extended to a twelve-hour shift, but the Public Works Committee found that two shifts of twelve hours could be worked, and au increase of 70 per cent, in the output was recommended. There was no opposition from the men as to the matter of working two shifts. The leader of the skilled portion of the operatives in the factory suggested two twelve-hour shifts; he said that they were quite practicable, aud that he and his people would be prepared, if necessary, to work on Sundays. Like the workmen of Great Britain, the workmen of Australia desire to be brought more into the confidence of the Government. The manufacturers and employers also wish to be brought into association with the Government, not onlY in order to bring to bear all these great forces that I have indicated, in order to increase production, but also to give confidence' to the people, and show that everything that ought to be done is being done. Two Committees of this Parliament have recommended that two shifts should be worked at the Small Arms Factory, but, so far, no real move has been made in that direction. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Were there any difficulties in the way? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- Any difficulties that were in the way have been removed. The only impediment now is the management. It was the management that put difficulties in. the way of working a double shift. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- So there were difficulties in the way? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- We discovered no particular difficulties. The double shift could have been started months ago." A grave position has been reached in connexion with that factory. Though two Committees of this Parliament have recommended that two shifts should be commenced, the Minister of Defence has appointed another committee - a committee of engineers - to investigate the possibility of making a start with two shifts. The men on that committee are mostly departmental officers, though not Commonwealth officers, and they were sent to Lithgow to make a report, and, according to the press, as the result of their report, two eight-hour shifts are likely to be worked. If two eight-hour shifts are to be worked there will be no great increase in the output for many months to come, as compared with the present twelve-hour shift. Indications show that the committee appointed by the Minister went to the factory, as did the Committees of this Parliament, and drew its inspirations from the management. There are also indications - according to the press reports - that many months are likely to elapse before a proper start can be made and there is anything like an appreciable increase in the output. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Was that not the objection of the management months ago, that these would be no appreciable increase in the output ? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- The objection was that there was not enough material, but our investigations showed that there was plenty of material available. Another objection by the management was that skilled men were not available and that there was not sufficient accommodation at Lithgow to house the men. When the State Governments said that they were prepared to give to the Commonwealth Government the necessary skilled labour in order to increase the output in the various Commonwealth factories, and when the people of Lithgow were prepared to throw open their doors to house the men, these objections were removed. Five elements - machinery, material, men, money, and management - are required to make the factory a success. The Public Works Committee were prepared to show that men, money, machinery, and material, were at the command of the management, and that all that was required to put two shifts into successful operation was method. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Did the Committee examine expert mechanics at Lithgow? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- Yes. The president of the local branch of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers came forward freely and gave his evidence, and showed that there were no serious difficulties in the way of making an immediate start with two shifts. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- The unionists are not such very bad fellows after all. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- I do not wish to treat this question in a party spirit. I wish to treat it in a manner that will secure a greater output in the interest of Australia and the Empire, so that our men at the front shall have a proper equipment and ammunition in order to carry on the war successfully. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- Was there not a difficulty in regard to material? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- For months past the factory has had plenty of material. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- No. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- The honorable member must be very vain to question my statement, which is founded on sworn evidence by expert witnesses who appeared before the Public Works Committee. The material has been in hand, and two shifts could have been instituted some months ago. The Committee had to send in a progress report, to which it was not possible to attach the evidence for perusal by honorable members, but amongst the witnesses we examined was the president of the Engineers Association, who made the suggestions I have referred to. Since thenhe has addressed a public meeting at Lithgow, at which he reiterated the willingness of the men to work an extra shift. We have the further knowledge that it is possible for the additional men necessary to work two, and perhaps three, shifts to be accommodated at Lithgow. Superimposed on that evidence is the promise made at the Premiers' Conference that whatever skilled labour was required by the Commonwealth for the production of arms and munitions would be made available by the State Governments. We already possess the machinery, and the Commonwealth has the necessary money, men, and material. Nothing is wanting to increase the output of small arms but method and management. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- It is the management that has been at fault in the past. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- I am endeavouring to explain that. This is what the president of the Engineers Association is reported to have said at the annual dinner of the local branch of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers at Lithgow - >We are going to do our best to make the output of rifles - woefully insufficient at the present time - considerably larger. I hope that you are going to see that the factory is worked every hour of the clay and night. It is for us to do our best to make this second shift successful. Let us help our gallant boys and our Allies by turning out every rifle possible. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- That statement was made by a trade unionist. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- The honorable member's mind is so obscured by party bias that he cannot dispassionately discuss a matter of this kind. **Mr. W.** P. Pedersen, secretary of the branch, said - >He could not help wondering how many more reports the Government wanted before the second shift was instituted, for reports had already been given, and now the Minister was calling a conference in regard to the state of the labour market. He did not consider that the delay in regard to the second shift reflected any credit on the Labour party. The president of the Federated Enginedrivers Association said - >As a Labour man, he deplored the fact that a party, whoso fundamental principle was for the cause of humanity, should have allowed the factory to stand idle half its time, when every rifle not turned out might have meant the saving of precious lives that had been sacrificed. We could not listen to any statements more patriotic than those. Despite the reports submitted by two Parliamentary Committees, the Government are instituting another kind of inquiry, and, according to the forecast we have had of the reports of this latest Committee, it will be months before a second shift is com menced, and then, probably, we shall have only two eight-hour shifts. In face of the two reports, wherein it is fully explained that nothing is lacking for an increase of output except the method and management, it is now the duty of the Minister not to superimpose another Committee, but to give. a firm direction to the manager of the factory to institute a second shift at once. The position of the Minister now should be like that adopted by Napoleon, when he asked an engineer the width of a river which he desired to cross with his army. The engineer said, " I have not my instruments with me, and I am not able to give you the distance "; but Napoleon replied, " Give me the distance instantly!" The engineer was obliged to find a way of answering the question, and a bridge was thrown across the river. The two reports that the Government have already had prove beyond all possibility of cavil that two, or even three, shifts can be instituted, and that the machinery can be kept going continuously. Therefore, if the Minister is firm, and has the necessary driving power, it is his duty to give a direction to the manager of the factory, and to supply him with the labour necessary, to keep the machinery in operation throughout the twenty-four hours. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- You do not mean to say that that factory has not done excellent work? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- I am not discussing what the factory has .done. I am asserting that the machinery is there for an increased output, and that we require more rifles. Every man who goes to the front must have a rifle; to send forward men without rifles would be to sacrifice them. We require to send forward more men, more rifles, and more munitions. I remember reading recently an article in which Robert Blatchford, the prominent. Socialist, stated that many of the labour troubles in Great Britain had arisen through the men not having been taken into the confidence of the Government. We know that Blatchford some years ago warned the British public of the German menace; that Britons were fighting for their lives against the most highlyorganized and perfectly-equipped nation 'the world has even known, and that it was the duty of every man, whether on the battlefield or in the workshop, to put forward his utmost effort in defence of his home and the Empire. The effect on the men in Great Britain was most stimulating. I believe that the position in Australia is ' similar. We are not attempting to organize the labour aud manufacturing forces in order to secure the maximum production of everything necessary to equip our soldiers with supplies and munitions, as well as rifles. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr HANNAN:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA · ALP -- In this time of crisis the British Government are consulting only with the recognised officials of trade unions. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- I shall not cavil at even that statement. I say that in this hour of supreme crisis, if Ave appoint a Committee of this House, or organize our industrial and manufacturing forces, there can be jio reason why we should not take into the confidence of such an organization sui official representative of the great labour bodies. {: #debate-30-s3 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- They ought to be the -first invited to be represented; they are the captains of industry. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON: -- I will not say that there should be any distinction made. Britain has invited representatives of both the employers and the men to join in the war councils, and there is no doubt that **Mr. Lloyd** George, by travelling through the country and discussing the situation with the captains of industry and the mcn, -has brought together a great force which alone can give that increased output which will enable the country to put forth its best efforts. The point I wish to emphasize is that the present situation should be dealt with independent of party. If the Government introduce controversial legislation of any kind it becomes the duty of every member to deal with such proposals as he thinks fit; but in regard to the concentration of all our energies in order to insure a maximum output of equipment, munitions, and arms, there -should be no party warfare. _ This al.important question, might well be intrusted for the time being to a body that would command ti is confidence on the whole of the people. The members of the Ministerial side cannot claim to represent more than about half of the people of Australia, and how can they say that they can invite the confidence of the whole of the industrial forces of Australia in this great crisis, especially when the people do not know what position they are in ? The public is not aware of the requirements of the Government, and, although they are prepared to do whatever they can to help in this emergency, they have no knowledge of what they ought to do. The only way in which the whole of our forces can be organized is for this Parliament to take the lead by constituting a body representative of both sides of the House, which will command the confidence of the whole of the people. A start must be made in this Parliament. The forces outside are already showing the Government what they should do, but their efforts are largely paralyzed because of ignorance of what the Government require, and because they cannot get that perfect cooperation which is necessary if the best results are to be attained. The supreme hour has struck when Parliament should rise above party warfare to a sense of national duty and responsibility, and we on the Opposition side of the House invite the Government to take steps in that direction. I can quite understand the difficulties which confront the present Ministry in regard to the creation of a N ational Government. It is an admitted fact that the Prime Minister is in a more difficult position than any other Prime Minister in the Empire in regard to calling the Opposition into the councils of the Government, and asking them to share the Executive responsibilities of the Commonwealth. The Prime Minister is surrounded by organizations and associations which prevent him from taking a step which a free and independent party within these walls would be able to take. Realizing that those difficulties confront the Prime Minister, one other way of uniting our forces in the manner I have indicated is open to us, and that is by the appointment, as suggested by the right honorable member for Parramatta, of a Minister of Munitions, who should be relieved from any responsibility in regard to the enrolment of troops, and who should be able to concentrate his undivided attention on the obtaining of equipment, supplies, and munitions, and the organization of all the vast forces within the Commonwealth that can contribute to that end. Personally, I should like to see a non-party war Committee appointed to help the Minister. The Minister might be Chairman of a Committee appointed from both -sides of the House, which would have power to appoint sub-Committees in the various States. This Committee would organize till the industrial and manufacturing forces of the Commonwealth, and ascertain our resources. The Minister would then be backed up by a body that would be in touch with, the manufacturing, commercial, and industrial organizations of the country, and would be in a position to secure the fullest output of supplies, munitions, and equipment. The appointment of such a Committee would secure for the Administration the confidence of the people and their co-operation.What I suggest would not beas good as a National Government, which would enable both sides to share Executive responsibility for war administration, but it would be infinitely better than the present arrangement. The business of the country is now being controlled by a Government and party representing only one half of the population, and they are continuing party warfare by introducing measures of a party character, to which, in some instances, they are giving precedence. . Further, they are not giving undivided attention to the supreme duty which the situation casts upon them, and which they cannot ignore without being recreant to their trust, and unmindful of the best interests of the nation. {: #debate-30-s4 .speaker-KMM} ##### Mr MANIFOLD:
Corangomite -- There is a matter affecting invalid pensions administration which I should like the Postmaster-General to bring under the notice of the Prime Minister. At present no person is given an invalid pension unless he has become an invalid for life,and many doctors are too conscientious to certify that a man or a woman is totally disabled for life. Besides, there are many cases in which persons are disabled for only a year or two. Such persons cannot now draw invalid pensions. But the suggestion has been made that persons whom doctors certify to be temporarily totally disabled should be allowed to draw invalid pensions for the year or two during which the disablement continues, fresh certificates, if necessary, being required of them from time to time. {: #debate-30-s5 .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN: -- That would require an amendment of the Act- {: .speaker-KMM} ##### Mr MANIFOLD: -- I understand that an amending Bill is to be introduced, and therefore I have brought the matter for ward. It is only fair that persons who are totally disabled, though only for a few years, should receive consideration. 1 also invite attention to a case affecting the administration of the Old-age Pensions Act. A woman who was applying for an old-age pension in Victoria stated what she believed to be her correct age, and what, I understand, was her correct age, though there was some confusion of names in the registration. "When an officer of the Department was sent to the Registrar-General's Office to investigate the case, he took the wrong name, and thus arrived at the conclusion that the woman wasa year younger than she had stated herself to be. She, however, got a constable - a friend - to hunt up the register of her birth, and thus made certain that her age was the age stated in her application form. Nevertheless, the Deputy Commissioner of Pensions for Victoria has penalized her by refusing to give her a. pension at all. I do not know whether that officer would see any one who called on him, but I have written to the Department time after time without effect, and now the woman is blaming me for not having got a pension for her. Even if she had made a mistake in the first instance, I think that she would have been too harshly treated, but I understand that she did not make a mistake, and, although in point of age shehas been entitled for two years to a pension, she has not yet got one. The other matters of which I wish to speak relate to Defence. The Government has definitely turned down the proposal for a coalition. Indeed, the other day the Prime Minister said, in effect, that he would not be found dead in a Coalition Government. This being so, the Labour party and Government must take full responsibility for Defence administration. I do not advance any criticism on party lines of what has been done; but it seems to me that, at present, the Minister of Defence has more work than one man can do, and that another Minister should be appointed - a Minister of Munitions or of Supplies, call him what you will - to see that all tilings necessary for the equipment of our troops are obtained as rapidly as possible. As to the making of shells, we may be a little in the clouds; but our volunteers should be equipped with expedition, and as soon as they enter camp. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- No troops have gone to the front better equipped than the. Australians. {: .speaker-KMM} ##### Mr MANIFOLD: -- I have not said anything to the contrary. What I am saying is that recruits should be furnished with uniforms and equipment directly they enter camp. I am credibly informed, however, that there are many men in camp at Seymour who can get a change of underclothing only by going to their own homes for it. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The supply of underclothing is sufficient. It is the supply of outer clothing that is deficient. {: .speaker-KMM} ##### Mr MANIFOLD: -- I have been told that any quantity of underclothing has been manufactured, but that it is not being sent on to the camps, and that, therefore, men are suffering considerably. As to the suggestion of the honorable member for Wimmera that a Committee should be appointed to assist the Minister, it seems to me that the appointment of a Committee is only a means of evading responsibility. I believe in having at the head of each Department a Minister who can be held answerable for the rectification of any complaints regarding the management of its affairs. Therefore, I suggest the creation of a Minister of Munitions, or of Supplies. If a Committee were appointed, and its members were chosen from the two parties in Parliament, one party would be all the time digging underground, trying to find ways of pin-pricking the Minister. The right thing is for the Government of the day to take responsibility for the administration of public affairs. But as the Minister of Defence has more work than one man can do, and all the time of the Assistant Minister is occupied with the affairs of the Navy Office, I think that we need, in addition, a Minister of Munitions. Of course, -nowadays, it is impossible for any one to see the Minister of Defence at his office; indeed, it takes something like three-quarters of an hour to obtain an interview with the Secretary to the Department. I went to the Victoria Barracks to-day, and was civilly received by that gentleman, who very kindly forwarded me on to Colonel Hawker, who is in charge of the Third Military District. When I went to the office to which I had been directed, there were three lads sitting at a table, who had not the decency to rise from their seats, or to speak politely, though every visitor to a public department should, at least, receive courteous treatment, whatever his position in life may be. In many public offices, visitors do not receive such treatment. One of the three lads to whom I refer was taking cuttings out of a newspaper. I asked where I could find Colonel Hawker, and one of the lads said to another, " Jack, give this chap a card, and let him write out what he wants." I wrote out what I wanted, and asked, * To whom shall I give the card ?" Then the lads said each to the others, " Go on, you take it." Is that the way in which to conduct business in a Government office ? I have received civility at the Base Records Office, and at other offices in the Victoria Barracks; but I certainly was not treated civilly in this instance, although, as I have said, all callers at Government offices, whether they bemembers of Parliament or private citizens, are entitled to 'civil treatment. If a Minister of Munitions were appointed, we should have some one whom we could hold responsible for the rectification of causes of complaint. If equipment is not being provided quickly enough, let there be a responsible Minister to ascertain why more expedition cannot be used. The Minister could see that every recruit was given a uniform as soon as he entered camp, and was supplied with a rifle as quickly as possible. I believe that a number of the men have not yet received rifles. The rifle supply could be improved by withdrawing more rifles from the rifle clubs. The first thing *a* to get men to enlist, and then they must be properly clothed and equipped. The other day, when travelling by train, a gentleman whom I did not know told mo that his nephew had recently returned from the camp. He said to the lad, " For goodness' sake, hold yourself together, and try to look a soldier," and was surprised to get the reply, " It is pretty hard work trying to look like *.1* soldier when I have to wear a hat that I bought for a bob, a tunic for which I gave two bob, and breeches for which I gave 2s. Gd., and left my watch and chain in pledge, as the fellow I got them from was not inclined to trust me with them. The leggings I wear cost me ls. for hire, and the boots 2s. If you were in a uniform which you were getting on hire in this way for ten bob a day, you would not look much of a soldier." I think it is regrettable that we cannot get more men to go to the front. We know that any number of men are willing to go. Why do they not go? The answer given to the question I put on the notice-paper, in which the Assistant Minister of Defence states that a noncommissioned officer took upon himself the responsibility of closing the doors of the barracks at 4 o'clock, without consulting a superior officer, may offer one explanation of why men do not offer themselves more freely. All the men who went to enlist on the day I mentioned put in their day for nothing; and it does not take very much to turn a nian away from his object in a matter of this kind. A soldier should be caught at the moment when he is prepared to go on. That is how all the best enlistments take place. There may be other reasons why more men are not coming forward. Surely a man who has served in the British Army should be fit to serve in Australia, but a case was brought to my notice the other day where a man was rejected because he had on him the marks of an operation. The operation was performed three years ago, and in the meantime the man has been occupied humping bags of sugar. He has had no trouble whatever, and yet, because the medical officer found upon him the marks of the operating knife, lie was turned down; and I was informed that there was absolutely no chance of his passing. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- They must not be hard up for mon. {: .speaker-KMM} ##### Mr MANIFOLD: -But I want to know where the trouble is. What is the use of going about the country asking for recruits when we know perfectly well that if the doctors can find anything at all the matter with a man they will turn him down. The Assistant Minister of Defence lias informed me that the main reason why so many men are turned down is because of their teeth. Men are not allowed to go to the front unless they have a certain number of teeth, including a certain number of molars. If a man has a dental plate he will not be allowed to go. The Assistant Minister told me that the reason for this regulation is that a number of the men who went away with the first detachment, when they were at sea, were not too well, and lost their teeth. In other cases the plates turned round and nearly choked their possessors. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- That is so. {: .speaker-KMM} ##### Mr MANIFOLD: -- I am telling the House exactly what the Minister told me, but surely there should be some method of getting over a difficulty of that kind. I do not know whether any honorable members of this House have dental plates, but I do not suppose that if ever they go to sea, and are attacked by sickness, that they lose them; and if this is "the reason why these men are not allowed to enlist, all I can say is that it is a poor reason, and a large body of men ought not to be turned down solely on that account. I have not the heart to go out to recruiting meetings, to call upon the people to enlist, when I know perfectly well that if they come to Melbourne they will be turned down on such a very slight pretext. There are hundreds of good men in the country willing to go to the front, but who are being kept back because of this state of affairs. During the South African war we were told that unless men had good teeth they would not be able to eat the hard biscuit that would be provided. I suppose the men who went to South Africa must have been better sailors than the men who are going to Europe. The men engaged in the present war have not to live on hard biscuits and salt junk; but the whole business requires explanation, for it seems almost as if this pretext is being put forward merely as an excuse to turn down the men. {: #debate-30-s6 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
Robertson .- I desire to address a few remarks to the House on tha question of Defence, because it seems to me that this subject overshadows everything else at the pre.sent moment. A good many centuries ago Belisarius, a celebrated Roman general, told the Emperor Justinian that victory is governed by Providence, but kings and generals are judged on the success or failure of their designs. In this case victory will rest with Providence, but we here and throughout the rest of the Empire can do something to justify our attitude towards the war. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- " Providence i3 on the side of the big battalions." {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- " Trust in God, and keep your powder dry " was one eminent officer's maxim. But I fear Australians have not yet realized the gravity of the situation and the work that we have to do. In the days of Belisarius, generals depended upon their kings; to-day kings depend upon their generals, and the generals upon their Parliaments; and a Parliament's duty is to see that it does not fail the general who has so many lives under his control. War to-day is not like the wars of olden times, when victory used to depend upon the individual courage of the soldiers and ability of the general. The man at home now fights the battle almost as much as does the man at the front. The man in the factory, on the road, on the quay, who is doing an honeSt day's work, is almost *ae* essential in the present war as the man in the trenches. The A.B. on a merchant-ship is almost as essential as the sailor on a man-of-war. I want to know what this Government has done towards helping, not only the men at the front, but those providing munitions and provisions for those who are at the front. lt seems to me that we have entirely overlooked the necessity which devolves upon us of not only maintaining, but increasing, the production of this country. We have been told in many directions that this is a war which concerns only the moneyed classes- If ever there was a war in which the interests of the workers were concerned it is this war. If we look back through the history of our own or any other country, and see the long and painful road by which our liberties have travelled, surely each one of us will make up his mind £o do his best to maintain those liberties rather than carelessly run the risk of losing them. We live under the most secure franchise in the world, and if members of this House cannot rise to the occasion, and set forth the true position before the public, how can they expect the people of Australia to do their utmost in this tremendous struggle? It seems to me that the Governments of the various States have approached this problem from altogether a wrong direction. In the Dark Ages a man had no property even in his life, which was absolutely at the disposal of his lord or his king, and it was only after years of struggle that humanity arrived at the stage when life was regarded as property. Then we went a step further, and reached the point where property was recognised in goods, and yet we see this Government and the other Governments, who should above all things stand for these rights to-day, going about their business in a way which sooner or later must be destructive of these rights and liberties, the recognition of which has cost so much. What is happening to- > **Mr.** *Fleming.* day ? In different States the prices of various goods are being fixed. We are told that there is a desire in this House to. fix the price of some of the necessaries of life. What does action_ of this sort lead to '! It takes away, in the first place, the great fundamental principle of therights of property, the recognition of which was only an aftergrowth of the recognition of a man's right to his own life. What is the result of the fixing of the price of wheat in New South Wales? The farmer was in many instances deprived of his full year's earnings, and the Government of that State lias had to import wheat from overseas, and pay about 3s. per bushel more for it thai they were willing to pay to their own farmers. Is that the way to encourage production in the country, or to help the Empire in 'the struggle upon which we are now engaged? But that Government went a step further, and fixed the price of butter. What has been the result of that ? I know it to be the simple fact that one of the best herds in New South Wales was turned put because it did not pay the owner to keep his cattle in milk. The price of butter was fixed so low that he could not afford to do this in consideration of the price of fodder and the wages he had to pay. The outcome of State interference in New South Wales in this respect has been that production has absolutely decreased, and, in order to overcome the difficulty which their earlier action had created, the Government took a further step, and fixed the price of fodder. Now thousands of tons of lucerne, which might have been made into hay, are being fed off, for the simple reason that it pays the owner better to do this. Here, again, we have decreased production, and this phase of the situation strikes right home to the Federal Government, because we all know that the Commonwealth is short of fodder for defence purposes. It will have great difficulty in finding sufficient fodder for the thousands of horses which it has to feed, and one of the State Governments has done that which of all things is calculated to cut down the fodder supplies that we require. That, indeed, is the result of the whole system. The more we interfere in the way of fixing prices and imposing restrictions on production, the less our production will be. It seems to me that we should be able to adapt ourselves to our requirements; but, so far, we have absolutely failed. What has happened within the last week or two? While Australia, with the rest of the Empire, is facing, not as is often said, the greatest crisis of all times, but the greatest crisis of modern times, we see the Prime Minister and his first lieutenant - the Attorney-General - casting aside the business of Empire in order to attend a sectional committee. If ever there was a modern instance of Nero fiddling while Rome burned - to compare little things with great things - it surely was when the Prime Minister and his first lieutenant threw aside all the affairs of Empire, all the affairs of civilization - for civilization as we know it is tottering in the balance - and left the Commonwealth to rock to its very foundations, whilst they buried themselves in another State capital, and took their orders from the pick and shovel men of the community. There has never been a more flagrant setting aside of the duties put upon a Ministry than occurred when these two Ministers left the affairs of the Commonwealth, in the hands of a Minister who was in no way fitted or empowered to do what they might have done had they remained here. I suggest that we might reasonably deal with the present crisis on lines different from those which have so far been adopted. We might well have a system of rewards rather than of punishments. Up to the present time, with this Government in office, it has been a matter of punishment. Every man is punished for not doing what the Government think he ought to do. They fix the prices of his produce, pile up taxation, and do everything to punish the producer, with the result that they lessen production. We have been told over and over again of the failure of the Government to provide munitions for our boys who are fighting and dying for us at the front. But in addition to this the Government punish those who stay at home by lessening the production which is so necessary for the maintenance of the stability of the country, as well as to feed the hungry oversea. If,' instead of this, they were to institute a system of rewards, I think much better results would be secured. If instead of piling up the land tax as they have done, they were to exempt from taxation all land brought under cultivation, there might be some definite, beneficial return. If they were to urge upon the men who particularly support them that they should give the fullest possible return to the community for what they get out of the community, and if they were at the same time to organize the manufacturing and producing interests, as they might readily do, I think we should have on every hand much better results. The Ministry have absolutely failed, not only to realize the importance of this war to the Empire, and to civilization and liberty as we know it, but to take any practical step towards keeping up munitions and supplies for our men at the front, and to increase our production as we must increase it if we are going to pull the Empire safely through the Titanic struggle in which we are now engaged. The Government should stand absolutely condemned in the eyes of the Empire - in the eyes of the men and women whose boys are at the front, and in the eyes of all who believe in the development of Australia aud in the maintenance, of freedom as we in Australia know it to-day. If there is any man in the community who should be doing his best to maintain the position that we occupy as an Empire it is the man of whom it is usually said, " He has nothing to lose." No man can have more to lose than the honour of his wife and the safety of his children. These are the things at stake at the present moment, yet the Ministry continue to fiddle away to the tune of little class interests, that should be put out of sight until we have done with the momentous issues with which we are faced to-day. {: #debate-30-s7 .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER:
Perth .- I desire to refer very briefly, and without any party bias, to the momentous question of the part which Australia has taken in the present war. I do not propose to wander over the whole field which such a question opens up, but shall devote myself to one particular matter which appears to me to- be the very crux of the whole situation, and to require more consideration than it has yet received from the Government. Had the Government been fully seised of its importance, I feel sure that they would have made a move in the right direction long before now. I am referring, as honorable members will guess, to the Small Arms Factory. Here is undoubtedly the weak link in the chain. We hear a great deal about slackness in the matter of recruiting and of the obstacles thrown in the way of would-be recruits, but we are assured that Ministers have been able to equip all the men that have enlisted. All these statements are, no doubt, quite reconcilable, yet the fact remains that if more rifles had been available we should have had to-day more men at the front and more recruits offering. The heads of the Defence Department know perfectly well what the difficulty is in this respect, and they undoubtedly are not taking that interest in the recruiting movement which they would otherwise do. I wish to speak of this matter as a member of the Public Accounts1 Committee, which was able recently to secure considerable information regarding the Small Arms Factory. It was thought by the members of that Committee that the Small Arms Factory, which had been the subject of many and anxious inquiries in this Chamber and elsewhere both as regards its financial position and its output, might very well form the first object of its investigations. As far back as 6th February last, the Secretary of the Committee indicated to the Defence Department that we proposed to go into this question. We were informed straight away that the factory was doing its best, and that it would be unwise to intervene with such an inquiry as we proposed. We, therefore, endeavoured to arrange that our investigation would not materially interfere with the work. We recognised, of course, that it would be necessary to examine the manager, but that, apart from him, the principal witnesses would probably be those who were more closely associated with the financial side of the work, so that no lengthened absence from their duties would be required on the part of those who were operating the factory itself. These representations were made to the Department of Defence, and in order, as we thought, to meet the convenience of the manager, and to obviate any interference with the work of the factory, we advised him that we should arrive at Lithgow on a Saturday, and proceed with the inquiry during the afternoon. We also requested him to secure accommodation for us in the town. When we arrived at Lithgow shortly after noon one Saturday, we found no one to meet us at the station, but discovered that arrangements had been made for our accommodation at an hotel, whither we made our way as best we could. **Mr. Fowler.** After lunch we considered how we could best proceed with the duties that we had set out for ourselves. We had still no information from the management of the factory as to what it was proposed to do. We therefore arranged for vehicles to convey us to' the works. As soon as we reached the grounds we were confronted by a sentry, to whom we explained our business, but who appeared to be quite ignorant of the fact that our visit had been arranged. The officer of the guard was therefore called. He was equally in ignorance of the fact, and, following out his orders no doubt, he politely suggested to us that we should clear out. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Such is fame! {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I am merely giving a plain statement of the facts. I am not blaming either the sentry or the officer of the guard for doing his duty. We went outside the grounds, and then a member of the Committee suggested that, as the manager's residence was not very far distant, the secretary should go there and inquire whether **Mr. Wright** was about and available. The secretary went to the house, and on his return reported to us that he had met the wife of the manager, who had informed him that **Mr. Wright** was away playing golf. That was rather a bad beginning. There was no sign of life or activity at the factory. However, on the following Monday, we started our investigation, and it was suggested to the manager that it would be a better course for him to wait until others we wished to examine had given their evidence, so that we could question him on any matters that arose during the course of the inquiry. As we were unable to complete our inquiry at the factory, we arranged with the manager, who was going to Melbourne shortly afterwards, that he should meet us and give his evidence there; but as that time approached we were informed by him that he was unable to leave the factory without the consent of the Minister of Defence, and we also had an intimation from the Minister of Defence that it was undesirable for the manager to leave the factory at that time. I believe that it was quite the usual thing for **Mr. Wright** to leave the factory and go to Melbourne on matters connected with it; and it was most unlikely that the factory would come to a stand-still if the manager was absent for a day or two on our account. Such a condition of affairs would reflect very little credit on the management. I believe that the work of the factory goes on just as well when the manager is absent as when he is there. However, the next thing to be done was to endeavour to meet **Mr. Wright** half way, so we arranged that lie should come to Sydney to give evidence on the 11th May. Prior to that date, however, he intimated that, as the Public Works Committee was to arrive at the factory in connexion with its inquiry about the same time, his visit to Sydney would need to "be a little later ; but we were able to, arrange with the Chairman of the Public Works Committee that we should meet the manager of the factory at the time indicated. All through this inquiry one fact has struck me, namely, that the manager has not been particularly anxious to assist the Committee. Now that the Minister has given instructions that a double shift shall be commenced, I am certain that the Government are making a grave mistake in allowing **Mr. Wright** to remain at the factory a day longer than is absolutely necessary, 1 understand that his connexion with it terminates about the end of August. I believe that I am expressing the opinion of the Committee of Public Accounts when I say that all along the principal obstacle to the starting of a double shift has been **Mr. Wright** himself ; and how we are to get a second shift put into operation effectively at the earliest possible moment by a man who all along has declared it to be impossible, I am at a loss to understand. I urge it upon the Government that **Mr. Wright** should be relieved of his duties at the factory. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- He has to stand aside ; the assistant manager is the man who is looking after .the new shift. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- If he is to stand, aside, I do not see why he should be there at all. My impression regarding that factory, and its inability to come up tq our anticipations, was based to a certain extent on preconceived opinions that the workmen were at fault; but on going to Lithgow as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts ' my mind was entirely disabused of that misapprehension. I found that the men were of a very high class indeed, both as artisans and as individuals. Some of the foremen and leaders of the sections were exceptionally intelligent men, and there was a remarkable unanimity among the men that a second shift could and should be instituted at the earliest possible moment. I had, therefore, to discover other reasons than that the men were at fault in this regard, and I have been forced to the conclusion, most unwillingly, that the obstacle to an improvement in the output of the factory is the manager. The Committee of Public Accounts has supplied Parliament with a report upon the general conditions of the factory from a financial stand-point; but as the members of the Committee could not fail to. observe other things, it is their duty to express themselves fully and freely on what appears to be an important matter in connexion with the part Australia is taking in the war. I say, without hesitation, that the fact that **Mr. Wright** has been in control of this factory during this period has been a misfortune to Australia. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Is he not very expert? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I do not say anything about his technical qualifications; but it does appear to me that he has lacked tact in dealing with the men, and is deficient in powers of organization. All along there appears to have been a very lamentable lack of co-ordination in the factory for which we cannot find any explanation than in the short-comings of the manager. We were unable to discover that, although the factory was short of raw material, any special effort had been made to overcome the shortage, even at a time when it was obvious that every energy and effort should have been used by the management in order to bring the factory to its very highest possible pitch of perfection. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr Palmer: -- Is the manager a British subject? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- He is British by birth, but for the greater part of his life he has been in America. I think that he has failed to realize the importance and urgency, of developing the work of the factory, and of overcoming the comparatively slight difficulties that stood in the way of a very distinct increase in the output of rifles. The Committee of Public Accounts has suggested that it may take six months to get a second shift actively and effectively at work. That period may safely be put down as the maximum. If the proper steps were taken, it should be working in very much less time, and the output should be practically doubled. We had evidence at the factory that there were many men in Australia trained to a class of work nearly akin to that which would be required from them in a small arms factory, and that a very short experience in the factory itself would make them perfectly competent. Most of the machinery in the factory is almost automatic, and none of it would be very difficult to be handled by the ordinary trained mechanic. We have in Australia, in such industries as motor-car repairing shops, men who could, in a very little while indeed, work effectively the vast bulk of the machinery employed in the manufacture of small arms. There are one or two positions in the factory for which special training is required, but I have no hesitation in saying that we could find the men, not only for a second shift, but also for a third shift, inside two, or at the most, three months. Of course, we would need to pay the men well in view of the importance of their work, but I feel certain that we would have that enthusiastic support and loyalty from the men that would make a very great improvement in the output of rifles. I trust that the Government will take the suggestions that I am making in the spirit in which they are offered. The Minister of Defence should have discovered this situation for himself without waiting to have it pointed out by two Parliamentary Committees, but I am quite prepared to admit that possibly he thought the opinion of the manager was sufficient. It was not. I think that circumstances will prove that what I say now witu regard to the manager is fully justified, and I hope that **Mr. Wright** will be relieved of his attendance at the factory as soon as possible. I hope also that every effort will be made to obtain the men who, I know, are to be found in Australia, who can apply themselves to the production of these rifles two-fold or three-fold, and in this way enable the Government to overcome the essential difficulty that has met the Commonwealth In regard to the part it is playing in the war. {: #debate-30-s8 .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER:
Echuca .- Unquestionably we are face to face at the present moment with the gravest diffi culties that have ever confronted Australia. We have a great obligation to the Empire, because it has befriended and helped us in every possible way. Australia was given autonomy, and I believe that at heart our people are thoroughly loyal. But loyalty requires that w© shall not only talk, but do; and not only do, but do our best; and as time goes on it seems to become more evident that, no matter how strong the desire may be that we should do our best, that best has not been accomplished. We have listened to a sorry tale from the honorable member for Perth, who has told us that the manager of one of our works for producing essentials of war has been disloyal. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- I did not say that. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- The honorable member's statement amounted to that. That manager was so recalcitrant that he was not ready to give evidence to a properlyappointed Committee of this Parliament, and, in the judgment of the honorable member for Perth, that gentleman has been the means of preventing the Factory turning out the full number of rifles which it is capable of producing. In other words, the manager has opposed the institution of a second shift. I am in agreement with the mass of the people that the Factory should be kept going continuously, to the limit of its capacity. It is useless to talk about installing a larger plant for the output of more rifles, because probably no increase ""could be obtained until the war is over. What is wanted is an increased output immediately, but that does not seem possible. Why ? If that Factory had been under the control of private individuals, selfinterest would have prompted them to keep the Factory going. But under Government control the establishment works only one shift of twelve hours, which, in the opinion of some people, involves overworking the men, so that the output is little, if any, greater than it would be if a shorter shift were worked. What power is there behind the manager of any Government-controlled f actor y to compel him to do what is his obligation - his best? I venture to think that the present Government have some earnestness of purpose, and- if they thought they could force the pace in regard to the Small Arms Factory they would have done so, so that more rifles could have been produced and more men sent to the front. Of course, the policy of the Government is that factories producing material for the State should be own,ec and controlled by the State, but the more we see of those establishments, the more we realize the futility of the hope that a factory controlled by the Government can do better than a factory controlled by private enterprise. How is it possible for a Government kept in office by Labour men to force Labour men to do what they do not wish to do? They cannot, and if the Minister of Home Affairs were to face the facts fairly and squarely he would admit that to .be the position. The Government cannot be the controllers and the controlled at the one time. There is another Defence matter to which I wish to refer. I am not at all sure whether the Government do or do not want more recruits. Sometimes w-j seem to be encouraged to induce the young men to enlist, and at the present time there are in the streets of Melbourne posters, the purpose of which is the stimulating of recruiting, but we are told that often when m«n come forward they are discouraged before they can have the opportunity to enlist. Honorable members -ought to be able to go into the country and urge all young men to enlist, but when there is a doubt as to whether men can be equipped when they do become enrolled, our argument loses its force. Enlistment receives a very serious setback by incidents such as that I will now relate to the Committee. A good many married men have enlisted on the supposition that their wives and families would receive a sufficient allowance from the Defence Department to provide for their wants. At least five wives of men who have gone to the front have approached me, and stated that their husbands had sacrificed their ordinary income to go to the front, but the Department had failed to give them the pay which it was pledged to give. I will mention a specific case. About the 1st June I received a letter from **Mrs. Mary** Rosser, the wife of a man who went to the front, and the mother of four children. She had written to the Department to complain that no pay had been received by her; she was in need of money for the maintenance of herself and children, but the Department had failed to comply with her request. Consequently, she addressed herself to me, and I handed her letter to the Assistant Minister of Defence, who promised to investigate the matter. On the 11th June I received this reply - With reference to a letter from **Mrs. Mary** Rosser, relative to her husband's pay, passed by you to the Assistant Minister of Defence, I beg to inform you that a report is being obtained, immediately upon receipt of which you will be further communicated with. Obviously a week is a matter of no great concern to the Defence Department, but to a woman who has to maintain herself and four children, and has no money with which to procure food for them, it is a very long time. I have now received from the unfortunate woman this piteous appeal, which I think it is the duty of the Minister of Home Affairs to bring under the notice of the Minister of Defence, with the request that it- be immediately inquired into - Dear **Sir,** As I have had no further reply from the Defence Department, your letter of the 3rd June was the last, for which I must thank you. It is hard to think that a wife and four children are left to beg, and nothing can bc done. As for my husband not been traced, his clothes has been sent home since I wrote to you, so his name must be found somewhere. Trusting you can help me, and to hear from you soon, I remain Mab? Rosser This case is not only a hardship to the woman, but such happenings have their effect on recruiting. **Mrs. Rosser** lives in a country town, and I venture to say that her case is known to every person resident there. In that town a meeting has been called for the purpose of encouraging youn.? men to go to the front, but what chance is there of inducing men to come forward for enlistment when the wife of a man from that district has been treated in the way I have described ? It is farcical to expect men to enlist in such circumstances. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- There must be some mistake. It does not follow that the Government are to blame. {: #debate-30-s9 .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- There is a fault in the administration somewhere. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- Suppose the fault is with the British authorities? {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- But this is the case of an Australian soldier. I am fighting the woman's battle, and I shall be disappointed if within three days she does not receive some pay to keep her and her children from starving. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Has she been without pay all the time? {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- Apparently. She has written three letters to the Department; to one she lias had a formal reply, and to the others no answer at all. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- It is a pity somebody did not take up her case, as I would have done had she been in my electorate. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I have taken up her case; but after three weeks she is still without support for herself and family. Having regard to the fact that Australia is part of the British Empire, and that in every other part the governing factors have been brought together, and by that action have united the people for common defence against the common foe, I cannot help expressing regret that the position is so different in Australia. I regret, also, that the Prime Minister, when questioned a few days ago regarding his attitude towards purely party politics, replied that there was no party politics about the Government policy, because every proposal they would bring forward would be for the welfare of Australia. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- And quite right, too ! {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- It is obvious that that remark *hy* the Prime Minister was only a quibble. He knows very well that the Referenda Bills are distinctly partisan in character. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- They are national. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- They are party questions. A party question is one which divides the people, and inflames one section against the other. The Referenda Bills are essentially party questions, because they will inflame the people. One large section of the community is warmly supporting the referenda; the other large section is distinctly and actively antagonistic. Faced with a common foe in Germany and Austria, we desire to unite our people to meet that foe; but the Government, in a petty way, are bent upon bringing these proposals forward at this time, and -so inflaming one section against the other, creating ill-feeling where there, ought to be good feeling, and weakening us to that extent. At the beginning of the session, the Leader of the Opposition, speaking for himself and for every member of the party, told the Government that we were prepared to help them in every way possible in the conduct of affairs relating to the war. He said that we would hack them up in. every action that they might consider it necessary to take in the interest of Australian defence, and to enable this country to take its share of the Empire's responsibility in the conflict. In view of that offer, we were justified" in believing that the Government would not press forward any measure of party concern. We are prepared to make good our promise. The Tariff, however, may be regarded as a party measure'. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- We are not pushing that on. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- The Government introduced a Tariff under which duties have been levied for months without parliamentary sanction, the present state of affairs being unprecedented. That Tariff has now been so long in operation that it seems to me that it might be almost as well to leave it as it stands, except for a few necessary alterations. Duties are imposed on jute goods, separators, and other things required by the producers {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Is that in order? {: #debate-30-s10 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I must ask the honorable member not to discuss the Tariff. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I shall say no more about it, but it was a very slight digression that I was making. In my opinion, we should adjourn as soon as we can, so that Ministers may have the whole of their time to give to the weighty matters which are now the responsibility of the Government, and may concern the very existence of this Commonwealth. I hope that never again in the history of this Parliament will the Leaders of the House, whose time should be fully occupied with public affairs, absent themselves from its sittings to attend the meetings of a subordinate body which has presumed to take a superior place. It is very difficult to interview the Minister of Defence on any public matter connected with the affairs of this Department- {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Yet for three days he could be found in an upstair room of this building. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- Yes. Why had he to spend so much time out of his office when there was- so much important business to be done ? I am sure that I speak for every member of the Opposition when I say that we wish to give the Government the utmost assistance during the present Titanic struggle in which the Empire is engaged. We are proud of what Australia has done, but we desire that she shall take a still higher place, and still further distinguish herself. Aus- tralia is a land well worth possessing, but if the present war ended badly for Great Britain, the first thing that might be expected is the cession of this country to Germany. One can hardly imagine what German rule would mean to us, but under it our condition would be hell-upon-earth compared with what it is now. Therefore, it is necessary to do our utmost to prevent that from happening. We should make every endeavour to secure unity, and to bring our people into sympathetic relations, and we should do nothing to antagonize any section. We should take every means to provide for the supply of men and munitions at the Dardanelles, or wherever they may be required, so that the interests of the Empire may be worthily sustained, so far as it is within our power to sustain them. {: #debate-30-s11 .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN:
Hume .- When a Supply Bill is under discussion, one naturally turns to its schedule to see how the money that is asked for is to be apportioned. After looking at the details of the proposed Defence expenditure, T naturally, though with great reluctance, ask, are the Government serious ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The Bill has not yet been introduced. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- Then I shall deal with the matter as broadly as I can. We are asked to. vote £1,230,395 for Defence. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Is the Opposition holding up the Supply Bill, a non-party measure? This is a perfect disgrace. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- It is not half the disgrace which the Government's referendum proposals are to them. The honorable member is a disgrace to the nation. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw that remark. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I used the expression quite in a political sense. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- It appears to surprise the Prime Minister that I should exercise my rights as an independent and untrammelled member of the Committee. Of the amount that I have mentioned, only £200 is set down for ammunition and equipment. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is again discussing the Bill. He must confine himself to the motion before the Committee. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- I ask if the Government are serious when they provide nothing for expenditure on clothing, saddlery and accoutrements, and only a small amount for small arms. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member must confine himself to *the* motion. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I submit that an honorable member is in order at th's stage in criticising any or all of the items that make up the total amount that we are asked to vote. On the second reading of the Bill, we shall be confined to the discussion of its principles without mentioning details; and in Committee on the Bill we shall not be allowed to discuss general questions. Therefore, this is the stage when reasons may be given for or against the introduction of the Bill. As of the amount that we are asked to vote over £1,000,000 is to be spent on Defence, we have a right to interrogate the Government as to their Defence proposals, so that the Committee may be in a position to decide whether it shall or shall not sanction the bringing in of tho Bill. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I am inclined to agree with the Leader of the Opposition. We freely admit that the Bill makes provision for Defence expenditure, which may be discussed until further orders ; but that is no reason why the Opposition should block the Bill. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I wish that remark withdrawn. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the Prime Minister to, withdraw it. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I do so; but the fact is obvious. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- On the point of order raised by the honorable member for Parramatta, I rule that the Bill cannot now be discussed. The motion before the Committee is one to sanction the granting of a certain sum of money to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year; but no statement as to the services on which it is to be spent is before honorable members. The allotment of the proposed expenditure can only be disclosed by the introduction of a Bill which is not yet before the Committee. I ask the honorable member for Hume to confine himself to the motion. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- We are discussing Supply, **Mr. Chairman,** and therefore the 'statement of grievances must take precedence. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- We are discussing a motion on which a Bill will be founded ; but as that Bill has not yet been introduced, we do not know what it contains. When it has been introduced, and is being considered in Committee, honorable members may discuss every item of its schedule; but at the present stage they must confine their remarks to the proposal embodied in the motion before them. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- I shall endeavour to follow your ruling, sir, as closely as I can; and I express the pious hope that we may find that the Government are whole-hearted in their provision for Defence, and are not giving effect to the suggestions for economy that have been put forward from time to time by honorable members of their party, and can he found in the pages of *Hansard.* I propose to draw attention to some of these suggestions, which make it appear that there are honorable members of the party opposite who desire to see economy practised in regard to Defence. I hope that this does not mean that necessary work in connexion with the war will be curtailed. For instance, as reported on page 4705 of *Hansard,* exSenator Rae stated - >There is no reason for our military expenditure to keep on growing at the rate at which it grow during the term of office of the late Administration. On page 3540 the honorable member for Melbourne Ports states - >It is generally known that I have not been in favour of thu excessive expenditure on defence that has been incurred, and to which we aru committed. On page 3742 the honorable member for Denison states - >I should like, too, to hear that there is to he a diminution of our terrible defence expenditure, the burden of which is now almost heavier than wc can bear. I hope the time will come when some restrictions will be placed on our defence expenditure. On page 3850 the honorable member foi Darwin states - >I congratulate honorable members who yesterday pointed out the iniquity of throwing away millions on the defence system, and going beyond the actual necessities of Australia. On page 3786 the honorable member for Brisbane says - >This is expenditure which cannot be recommended on the highest grounds. If we were a sane and civilized people? we should see that such expenditure is unproductive and unnecessary in the highest degree - a waste of money - and that what is now spent in defence could be better spent in the development of the country. It is time this House stepped in and said, " This is too much." To go further, I might point out that on page 2951 the honorable member for Ballarat is reported to have stated - >I think the people of Australia will find it impossible to bear this burden. The honorable member referred to Defence expenditure. All these utterances lead me to the conclusion that it may be possible, when the Bill is introduced, to find in it evidences of economy in a direction that, I think, at the present moment will be against the public welfare. I have a number of other quotations from speeches by honorable members of this House and of the other House. **Senator Stewart** is reported, on page 4707 of *Hansard,* as having said - >Not only do I think that we are spending too much on defence, but I think wc arc spending it in the wrong way. On page 4712 **Senator Long** stated - >I wish to ally myself with **Senator Stewart,** who has laid down the doctrine that the safety nf Australia lies in the development of our land Forces. Without cavilling in any sense at the naval expenditure to which Australia has been committed, I wish to say that, although I voted willingly for this expenditure last year, I am questioning it this year, because I believe that if we made a mistake yesterday wc ought to be prepared to admit the fact to-day. I have made these quotations simply because I am afraid that there may be some evidences of economy in' regard to munitions and equipment when the Bill comes on for discussion. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- It was stated in the public press that the Australian Forces were the best equipped forces at the front. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- The fear that I have leads me to ask whether, although we have a Government ' in power which is supposed to be doing all it possibly can, that Government is not in earnest' over this matter? Will their Estimates, when they come forward, disclose the fact that they are spending all that is necessary on such items as ammunition and equipment, and so show that they are really serious in their expressed desire to actively prosecute this war ? {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Do you honestly think they are not? {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- As a member responsible to the electorate that returned me, I do not think that the present Government are doing all they might in the prosecution of this war. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Then you ought to impeach them. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- I am doing what I can. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- That's all flapdoodle; all electioneering stuff. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- When we have a difficulty to face ; when we have this most unprecedented war to deal with, I think that the intelligence of this National Parliament should be consolidated on its prosecution, and on nothing else till the war is brought to a successful issue. It is little short of a disgrace that a National Parliament should allow party politics to enter into its discussions at a period like this. I say quite frankly that I heartily support the Leader of the Opposition in his offer to the Government, and, speaking as an individual, I will do all that I possibly can to assist the Government in the prosecution of the war in any way that they may require, and I trust they will not violate decent taste by the introduction of party politics just now. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- You are like the blackfellow with his gin ; you are giving them a waddying. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr PATTEN: -- No, I am not; but I cannot help speaking on this matter with considerable feeling ; and it does seem to lend colour to my fears when I see honorable members treating a situation like this with such unbecoming levity. I am the father of a boy at the front, where we know men are dying for us, and I cannot help it if I speak on this subject with some emotion. There is not a man in this Blouse, if he possesses the slightest shred of heart, who does not realize that our men and our boya, are going to the front willingly, and that they are dying there. And in their trouble and difficulty they can only ask one another, " When are we going to be assisted?" Yet here in this House we are laughing, and smiling, and joking on the subject, the full seriousness of which is well known to my honorable friend the honorable member for Maranoa, who, when he was at Majuba Hill, knew that the cry was, " Oh. God ! when will they come to help." I know he is not the man who would treat a situation like this with any degree of levity, and I repeat that the whole of our energies should be built up in the one direction of getting more men, mors munitions, and more equipment, so that when the crucial moment does come we may be able to have many men there ready and equipped. Honorable members must excuse me when I tell them that it makes my* blood boil to hear such a subject as this laughed and jeered at, particularly when this laughing and jeering takes place in the National Parliament. What is happening in other portions of the Empire ? The Imperial Parliament has taken good care to sink all party differences. All energies there are being expended on the prosecution of the war. The same thing is taking place in the Dominion of Canada, and in the South African Union. It is left to us in Australia to be the one exception. Here we are asked to allow a war of this magnitude to stand on one side. while our paltry party differences are discussed. Instead of this, we should be bending the whole of our energies to the successful prosecution of this struggle. I earnestly appeal to the Government, as the father of a boy at the front - and I know I am not -singular in that respect - I appeal to them on behalf of all the fathers, and all the mothers, who have boys in the trenches, to sink these party differences. We should concentrate our mental activities on an effort not only to promote recruiting, but to see that the Small Arms Factory shall give the best possible return, that our equipment is well and rapidly turned out, and that nothing shall be left undone to bring to a successful issue this war, which means so much to us. When we hear the AttorneyGeneral asking for leave to introduce Bills to provide for an extension of our constitutional powers, although we have by no means exhausted the powers we already possess, we cannot help thinking that this attitude on the. part of the Government at the present juncture is too trivial for even children to adopt. And yet this is the attitude which is being taken up by the Government in the National Parliament of Australia. At a time when in practically every letter from our noble boys at the Dardanelles there is the invitation. " Come over and help us ! We want every man ! " we are trifling with matters of this kind, instead of bending the whole intellectual forces of the Parliament to a supreme effort to safeguard those whom we have at the front. They are in danger. But as long as we are out of the fight, it seems to me that our interest in those at the front is not as keen as it ought to be. I strongly appeal to the Government to drop the Referenda Bills which they have announced their intention of bringing forward, and to concentrate their energies upon an effort to bring the war to a successful issue, and they can rest assured of the assistance of every member on this side of the House. When the war is over they can revert to the proposal to increase our constitutional powers, and,, if it is necessary that they should be extended, we can then arrange for their extension. But until we have exhausted the powers we at present possess under the Constitution as it stands, it seems to me to be utterly futile to ask that they shall be in any way increased. {: #debate-30-s12 .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE:
Maranoa .- I should not have risen but for the remarks of the honorable member for Hume, who has been indulging in a lot of "flap-doodle." {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr Patten: -- I was never more in earnest in 'my life. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- The honorable member knows that he was talking a lot of " flapdoodle." Listening to him, as he spoke with tears in his voice, a stranger might imagine that we on the Government" side are mere butchers; that we want to see our boys at the. Dardanelles slaughtered. The well-being of the poor dear boys who are fighting at the front, according to the honorable member, is of no concern to honorable members on this side of the Chamber. Here is this Daniel come to judgment! He and his associates would have us believe that they alone are anxious to see the war speedily brought to a successful issue. Is this not a dragging of the party flag in the mud? If we cannot rise above such petty considerations, then I am sorry for the National Parliament. I know what our boys are going through, and I would not be in this chamber to-night if I were eligible to *so* to the front. I have offered my services, and would go to the front tomorrow if I could, but the Military authorities will not allow me to go. As it is, I am quite willing to take the place of some one else, who is able to go to the front, in any of the forts round Australia. Surely there is some good on this side of the House ! I regret that the Minister of Defence cannot tell honorable members everything that is being done in respect of the supply of munitions. Let me remind the ' Opposition that even their official organ, the *Argus,* which in its attitude to the Labour party seems to hold the view that there can be no good come out of Nazareth, admitted last week that the Australian Forces are the best equipped that have gone to the front. What more do the Opposition want ? There are a good many Australians at the front, and they have made a name for themselves. I am satisfied that those whom we shall yet send will emulate the brave deeds of our boys who took part in the landing at the Dardanelles. My blood tingled, and I thrilled with excitement and pleasure as I read Ashmead Bartlett's account of the landing of the Australian and New Zealand troops. Why should the honorable member for Hume say that we do not feel for these men as he, who has a son at the front, does? Is lie the only honorable member who has a son at the front? There are other men in the House who feel just as strongly as he does, although they have no sons taking part in the war. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr Patten: -- I have not said anything to the contrary. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- Then why does the honorable member accuse us of failing to do what we ought to do for the Empire? There are on this side honorable members who are quite willing, if necessary, to lay down their lives for Australia. Some of them have already " done their bit " in the matter of fighting for the Empire, and are quite willing to do more. Why, then, should we discuss this matter in a party spirit ? I know, as a matter of fact, that every member of the Opposition is just as anxious as I am that the good old flag shall be kept flying. {: .speaker-KXG} ##### Mr Watt: -- The honorable member said the other day that all the Opposition ought to be shot. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- At all events, I withdrew the shooting part of my statement. Our Forces have gone to the front well and fully equipped, and, what is more, we are still maintaining the equipment in Egypt. There are no complaints from the front as to the munitions sent from Australia, and there is not a man in this Parliament who does not want to see the efforts of Great Britain and our Allies crowned with success at the earliest possible moment. {: #debate-30-s13 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- **Mr. Chairman-** {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Let it go through. Why waste time in this way? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- What is wrong' with the Prime Minister? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Purposely blocking Supply! {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- That is a deliberate misstatement of the facts, and it is utterly unworthy of the Prime Minister. The Leader of the Opposition has told the Government that it is the unanimous wish of the Opposition that all questions relating to Defence shall be kept entirely free from party politics. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- And yet they could not have said worse than they have done had they tried to do so. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Has the Minister been doing anything wrong? Is he afraid to have a discussion on the question of Defence ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I am honest about the matter. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- The Prime Minister no sooner enters the chamber than, in the most arrogant way, he begins to hurl insults at the Opposition. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- We will stop his little bluff before he is much older. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- If honorable members opposite were to stand on their heads they could not do what they suggest. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Here is an illustration of the way in which public business is conducted by the Prime Minister. This afternoon he has twice entered the chamber, and on each occasion has made some insulting reference to the Opposition, and then walked out, as he is doing now. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- He is waiting for the big guns to come on. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Possibly, that is so. *Sitting suspended from 6.S0 to 7J5 p.m.* {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- I have already mentioned to the Assistant Minister of Defence the question of the pay of Imperial reservists who, at the outbreak of the war, were domiciled in Australia, having made their homes here and having their wives and families here, and who were summoned to join the Imperial colours. The particular case I wish to mention is that of an Imperial officer. The decision of the Government was that Imperial reservists who left Australia to fight on behalf of Australia, as well as on behalf of the Empire, should be paid the difference between the pay allowed by the Imperial Government and that drawn by members of the Australian Expeditionary Forces. But unfortunately this privilege was not to extend to Imperial officers who were recalled to the colours from Australia. The Minister's reply to a question submitted in the House was - >There is a great disparity between the pay of privates in the British and Australian Forces. Most of the reservists left their families in Australia, and the Government decided to pay the difference between the respective rates of pay, in order to enable the families to live during the husband's absence. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- A very laudable object. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- And one with which I thoroughly agree. These men came vo Australia, and brought their families here, and constituted themselves Australian citizens, living under Australian conditions; they are just as much Australians as the men we have sent to the front. The Minister's reply continues - >There is not the same disparity in the rates of officers of the Imperial and the Australian Forces, and the amounts paid to the Imperial officers are considered to be quite sufficient to enable them to maintain their wives and families in Australia. There is not, therefore, the same reason for similar treatment to be afforded Imperial officers, and the Government do not propose to take any action in that direction. I have recently handed a letter to the Assistant Minister, and I think that if the Government will look" into the matter a little more closely they will find that there is a considerable disparity in the rates of pay of Imperial and Australian officers. In any event, to make any distinctions between officers and men who have left Australia, where they had settled with their wives and families, and gone to fight with the Imperial Forces, is invidious. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- It was imperative for the reservists to go Home, but not for the officers. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- I understand that this officer, who was a second lieutenant, and had taken up land in Queensland, and incurred obligations there, had to go back and join a Scotch regiment. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Does the honorable member say that these officers' pay should bo made up to the Australian rates? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- They should be paid the same rates as apply to corresponding ranks in the Australian Expeditionary Forces. It is fair to treat the officers in the same way as the men ' have been treated. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- There is a vast difference between a private who is a reservist and an officer. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- The Imperial rate of pay drawn by a second lieutenant would leave things in a very unsatisfactory position in regard to this officer's family, particularly if the conditions of land settlement which he had taken up had to be fulfilled by hired labour. A man in such a position should receive every consideration from us. We cannot be too generous in our treatment of Imperial reservists who have left Australia to fight for us and the Empire; but we should not make any discrimination between officers and men. Justice should be given all round. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- What would the honorable member do in the case of an Australian going to England and joining the Imperial Forces as an officer ? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- That would be his own voluntary act, though, frankly, I admit that, irrespective of where a domiciled citizen of Australia is serving, I would be inclined to make up bis pay to the Australian rate. If a mau finds that he cannot enroll in our own Forces, but finds a place in the Imperial Army, he is fighting just as much for Australia in France or Flanders, or even in Italy or Russia, as are our Forces in Gallipoli. I applied, to the Government for information as to the Imperial rates of pay, and was officially informed by the Secretary of the Department that the Department could not inform me as to what the rates were, but ultimately the Department obtained the information. A paragraph appeared in the *A.r/e* on the 3rd of this month, in which I find the following - In response to inquiries by members of tin; Federal Parliament, documents were yesterday laid on the table of the House. Evidently the document has not yet been circulated, but this paragraph is a reprint, and no doubt the figures given are correct. They show that privates in the United Kingdom are paid ls. per day, whereas the Australian rate is 6s. per day. Obviously for us to allow a reservist to leave Australia and serve in the Imperial Army, and expect his wife and family here to live on his pay, would be asking the impossible. In the United Kingdom, lieutenants are paid from 7s. 6d. to 9s. 6d. per day, whereas the Australian rate is 17s. 6d. per day. So there is a big disparity between the Imperial rates and ours. The Imperial rate of 7s. 6d. per day will not provide much for the upkeep of a . lieutenant's family. Captains receive in the United Kingdom from 12s. 6d. to 14s. 6d. per day. In the Australian Forces, a captain is paid *£1* 2s. 6d. Even if the Ministry felt that they could not grant the concession in regard to the higher officers, they might do so in regard to the lower ranks. When these men leave Australia, where they have established their homes, ' and have incurred obligations in the making of those homes, we should see that when they go to the front, where they are fighting for us as well as for Great Britain, they are treated on the same footing as that of our own officers. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I shall bring the matter under the notice of the Minister. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- I ask Ministers to treat it sympathetically. The case that' I have brought forward is a pressing one. The letter sets out reasons - I do not want to go into them - but the Minister will see that there are reasons which will make him sympathetic. I rose primarily to press this question, because I do think it is an important one. One does like to think that Imperial officers who are retiring should be encouraged to settle in Australia. There was a strong movement some time ago in this direction, and- I think after the war we shall probably be just as keen to approach this matter again. I do not- now wish to press it any further, as the Minister has assured me that he will give it consideration. There is one other question that I wish to deal with before I resume my seat, and that is this : I do wish the Ministry could see their way to accept the offer that was made by the Opposition to lay aside, for the time being, all questions of a party political character, and combine the energies of the whole Parliament in ' the direction of carrying on the war itself. I think the Minister will admit that, as regards every war measure introduced into this House, honorable members of this side have freely given the Government of their best. We have carefully looked at every Bill from the legal point of view, and many of us have spent hours in going through the different measures. Our services have always been, and always will be, at the disposal of the Government, with the object of assisting them to frame measures that will help to make Australia more efficient in this great contest. There is, however, one feature that I would like to emphasize. I do believe that the general mass of the people* in Australia do not realize the serious position in which the Empire finds itself to-day. We believe it will win through the war; but we must take the lead from the Home authorities by realizing that victory can be accomplished only by a complete organization of the entire resources, not only of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, but of the whole British Empire from end to end. There is needed this complete organization right through. At the beginning of the war this policy was initiated with regard to foodstuffs and other commodities in Australia. It was done by the preceding Ministers, and has been carried out *oy* the present Ministers, who have readily put all the natural forces that we have in the Commonwealth at the disposal of the Empire, having regard, of course, first to the needs of our own people as regards the necessaries of life. We are so far removed from the scene of conflict that we did not at first feel the war; but now every casualty list published is causing a deep shadow to fall over the whole of Australia, and is probably deepening the sense of our responsibility in the great conflict we' are engaged in. There is one passage of a letter from a wounded soldier - Private F. J. Walsh- that I cannot refrain from quoting, as I believe it would be. a good thing if every Australian could get embedded into his mind the sentiment contained in that letter - ' It's got to be ' did.' " I repeat that " it's got to be- ' did ' " by every person in Australia if we are going to win in this war. This wounded soldier, in a letter dated 6th May to his father, writes as follows: - Fellows want to shake themselves up in Australia and enlist. They will all be wanted to take the boys' places. It's got to be " did," and no delay. I think every young fellow ought to take his turn now. There's no place like home, but these blokes have got to be stopped quick and lively. Here is an Australian talking in language which cannot be misunderstood. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- Rugged eloquence. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- We can imagine the feelings of that young man who Has been to the front, and is now lying wounded in a hospital, making this personal, appeal to the whole of us in Australia. His words, " It's got to be ' did ' " apply just as much to the members of the Ministry, and to the members of this Parliament, as they do to the man in the street who is called upon to enlist. Every one of those vacant places in the ranks of the men at the front in Gallipoli must . be filled. We want three Australians to offer for every one who falls at the front. It would be a good thing if, instead of obtaining picture posters to encourage enlistment, .we used a phrase like that,, which I am sure, would burn into the hearts and minds of our young men, and encourage them to enlist. That young man lying wounded in a distant hospital is annealing most eloquently to his fellow.Australians to take the places pf- those who fall, and so help to preserve the flag and integrity of the Empire. That is the appeal. " It's got to be ' did.' " The question that we have to face is : How are we going to take our part in assisting in the defence of the Empire? We have to provide , and equip the men. Then, also, we have to organize the industries of Australia so that the very best results may be obtained. I am satisfied that, after reading the statement that was issued by the Minister of Defence as rewards the. efforts, that he made to obtain munitions, we can come to the conclusion that, however good Socialism may be, whenever we. are. engaged in a life and death struggle like the present one the principles of Socialism, as applied to the conduct of a great war, for example, are likely to prove futile. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- They are more necessary than ever. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- I am referring more particularly to. the efforts we made to try and establish, while the war is raging, a State factory for the manufacture ' of munitions, instead of turning directly to the resources that are at our disposal in Australia. This is not the -time for a discussion on the adoption of any principles. My own opinion is that .the question of the hour is not Socialism or Liberalism or anything else, but expediency. There is no time now to think out theories. Whether you call it Socialism or not, the State should seize any opportunity presented to exercise its powers. If there is not this opportunity the State should appeal to the private industries in Australia. In a national crisis like this, the Government have to adopt the best means at their disposal to accomplish the great end in view. There has not been a sufficient attempt made in the past to try to organize industries, but we are not going to accomplish any good by pointing out the errors of the past, unless we do something constructive for the future. I think the Ministry can see clearly that the best thing they can do is to ascertain the needs of the Empire, and get into the closest touch with the Chambers of Commerce, the Chambers of Manufactures, and also with the industrial unions, so as to organize the whole of the industries of Australia. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- What about Packer's crowd ? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- It is not a question of Packer's crowd or Tudor's crowd, but a question of calling upon every one to organize. This matter will have to be considered in no party spirit. Prejudices must be laid aside. The first duty of the Minister is to ascertain exactly what the Empire needs, and then to organize our industries for the supply of those needs, which must be attended to before the requirements of any other country. The Minister ought to be able to find out very quickly what are our own needs, and how they can be supplied by the various organizations in existence. From myown experience, I know that if the Minister were to formulate exactly what are the defence requirements, and to communicate them to the or-' ganized industries of the Commonwealth, the people controllingthose industries could assist him verymaterially. Something must be done, and I cannot do better than conclude with the words of a young soldier writing from the front, " This has got to be 'did.'" {: #debate-30-s14 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- One would have anticipated that the earnest appeal made by the honorable member for Darling Downs, and his endeavour to induce honorable members on the Government side to take a serious view of the present position, would have met with some response from those honorable members. But the interjectionsof ridicule which came from the Ministerial side showed clearly that those 'honorable members eitherhavenoideaoftheseri ousness of the position or are inclined to sacrifice their loyalty to the Empire to their loyalty to the Caucus. The honorable member for Darling Downs realizes, as the public are realizing, the real seriousness of the present position. One has only to notice on the map the enormous extent of Belgian and French country held by the Germans, and to recollect the awful sacrifices that have been made, to realize that it is the duty of everybody to do everything possible to help our soldiers at the front. I have no time for this spurious loyalty and blustering talk. {: .speaker-L77} ##### Mr Hampson: -- Then why do you not drop it ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- There has been no spurious loyalty on this side of the House; it has been on the Government side. We cannot forget that the Minister of Defence would not allow the transports to be prepared at the State Government dockyards at Williamstown because the State Government would not admit the policy of preference to unionists in connexion with the men employed on the transports. Surely before voting Supply to the Government, we should demand that an effort be made to induce all people in Australia to come forward and do their best by service either in the Commonwealth or at the front. I believe that honorable members from South Australia will give the Committee information with regard to the administrative acts of the Government in. that 'State. We know that in connexion with contracts that are being let, it is stipulated that no man shall be employed unless he firstjoins a union. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- That is for his protection. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It is for the protection of the honorable member. If there is anything good in unionism, that good should be sufficient in itself to induce people to join the unions without compulsion. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- You never believed in unionism. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I believe in industrial unionism, but not the political unionism the honorable member believes in, and such as I have witnessed in Western Australia, where men have been hounded out of the community, neither the hotelkeepers nor thestorekeepers daring to serve them, because they had had the courage to take work on contract. {: .speaker-L77} ##### Mr Hampson: -- What about the unionists who were hounded down for years? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I mentioned last night the action of the New South Wales Government in black-listing and hounding down men employed on the Government trawlers; apparently there is black-listing all round. My object in rising is to urge that every effort should be made to secure the co-operation of all parties in the present great national struggle. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports said this evening that good old private enterprise is being knocked out. Has not private enterprise been responsible for the building up of Australia ? There are in this Commonwealth a large number of big engineering enterprises controlled by private people, and the Government have placed on the Munitions Advisory Board, as a consultative member, **Mr. McKay.** That gentleman, when giving evidence before the Public Works Committee in regard to his large works at Sunshine, said that he never asked an employee whether he was a unionist or not; all he was interested in was in knowing that a man was a good worker. Are we to understand that **Mr. McKay** will have to depart from that policy, and adopt preference to unionists, before his establishment will be allowed to carry out any work for the Government? Such a restriction would be scandalous. I hope that reason and common sense will inducethe Government to endeavour to get a system of co-operation amongstall classes of the people, so that Australia may do its best in the international struggle. Why did not the Government introduce preference to unionists in connexion with their call for recruits? The Prime Minister has said that soldiers will be properly treated when they return to Australia; but why has the House had no statement of what the Government propose to do in that regard? In my opinion, a motion should be tabled which would compel honorable members to show by their votes whether or not they are in favour of returned soldiers receiving preference throughout the Government service, irrespective of whether they are unionists or not. A good deal has been said in regard to the proposals of the Minister of Defence for increasing the output of munitions of. war. According to the PrimeMinisterinquiries are being made in England in regard to machinery for the manufacture in Australia of 18- pounder field pieces, machine guns, and shells. The Prime Minister tried to make the House believe that the object of the Government was to endeavour to manufacture these munitions of war for use in the present conflict. Is there the slightest chance of the production with that machinery of one shell, or one machine gun, or one field piece, which could be used in this war? The Government know that it is absolutelyimpossible to produce one of those items within the next two years. Their desire is merely to build up a big Socialistic enterprise in which they can employ union labour to their heart's content. Of what use is all this rhodomontade, when we know it would be impossible for the Government to manufacture one 18-pounder gun, one machine gun, or one shell within the next two years? What would be the use of that, so far as the prosecution of the present war is concerned? In connexion with the position at the Small Arms Factory, we had a statement from the Minister of Defence that some eight months ago he gave instructions that two shifts were to be worked there. I pointed out last night that, if it had not been for the reports of the two Committees that have inquired into this matter, no action would have been taken up to the present time. The Minister says that the instructions he gave have not been repealed; but he was responsible for those instructions, and for seeing that they were carried out. He could have told Captain Clarkson and others who were associated with the establishment of the factory that the Government wanted more rifles produced. He might have told Captain Clarkson that he was one of those who had made investigations regarding the establishment of the factory; that he had organized it, and worked there for some time; and that he, with others, should go to the factory and see whether more rifles could not be manufactured there. No; the Minister, instead of doing that, slept upon the matter. We have been told that there was a shortage of material for rifle stocks. Tenders were called for the supply of a quantity of timber suitable for the purpose, and the manager, **Mr.** Wrightingivingevidence,said- >Tenders were invited twomonths ago for 50,000 pieces of wood, which would represent 100,000 stocks, but, owing to delays in the tender department - Let it not be forgotten that this was while the war was going on, and when these things were urgently required - tenders were not let immediately, and, in con sequence, the price of the logs was raised, and that necessitated, owing to departmental regulations, the re-inviting of tenders. Can any one imagine that, in time of war, tenders for these supplies should have had to be called twice? Instructions should have been given for the immediate purchase of the logs required, no matter what the cost might be; but no action of this kind was taken. According to **Mr. Wright,** these logs were ordered from two Sydney firms. They were to be of Queensland maple, and would be obtained from Cairns. According to the manager of the factory, timber enough for 100,000 stocks could have been obtained from Queensland, but no action was taken to obtain it. Does that look as if the authorities of the Defence Department have been in earnest in the matter? {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- They are vacillating even now. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- They will continue to do so.Are the Government really anxious to send more men to the front ? {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- What is the honorable gentleman's answer to that question ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I ask the question ; it is for honorable members opposite to answer it. I have been surprised to find so little effort made by Ministers to encourage recruiting. I take the case of the Postmaster-General, and I remind honorable members that, while our big banking corporations have agreed to keep their positions open forthose of their employees who, enlist, and have agreed, further, to make up the difference between their pay as soldiers and the salaries they have been receiving, according to all accounts obstacles are placed in the way of would-be recruits from the Post and Telegraph Department by the PostmasterGeneral. . .... Mr.Spence. - That is not true. The statement is absolutely untrue. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I ask for an absolute withdrawal ofthat. The Minister has made a most offensive remark, and I demandits withdrawal. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -Ididnotunder- standthePostmaster-Generaltosay-- {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The honorable gentleman said that my statement was not true, and he should be made to withdraw that. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- As I caught the remark made by the Postmaster-General, it was to the effect that the statement that he would not allow any one to recruit from the Post and Telegraph Department was not true. The honorable gentleman did not attribute the untrue statement to the honorable member for Dampier. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I saw the statement made in a letter published in the *Argus* two days ago. I think it was from the secretary of one of the organizations in the Post and Telegraph Department. I did not see any contradiction of it. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- It is contradicted. I wired to the Deputy Postmaster-General of Western Australia to let a man go from that State, and I found that he had been permitted to go. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -I beg the Minister's pardon. I did not see the contradiction of the statement which appeared in the *Argus.* It might be of interest to the Minister of Home Affairs to learn that when we were making some investigations a short time ago, we saw a plant at Alcock's, here in Melbourne, for the electric artificial seasoning of timber. I suggest to the Minister that some of our best timbers might be sent to these people to be electrically seasoned. If this were done we might discover a meansof overcoming a difficulty which might arise at any time from a shortage of suitable timber. Honorable members" will understand that perfectly seasoned timber is necessary for the manufacture of billiard tables. To experiment in the way I propose on a large scale would be costly, but a trial experiment in a small way would be well worth while. The statement has been made that it was impossible to institute a second shift at the Small Arms Factory because of a lack of sufficient steel and other material. I am not, in this matter, referring to anything which it would be improper to mention, because it has been reported upon already, and I am, therefore, quite justified in using the evidence upon which the reports have been made. I may inform the Committee that **Mr. Anderson,** the agent in Sydney for the company holdingthe contract for the supply of steel . requiredforthe Small Arms Factory, stated in evidence that his company had entered into a contract last July, which was held up for some time. He mentioned that the contract was for a supply of steel to meet the total output of the factory for three years. He said that the company had supplied the whole of the three years' requirements within two years, in fact, in about a year and a half they had supplied the factory with all the material required for three years' working. I mention this to show how the Minister responsible has neglected this matter. How can we expect anything else? Parliament is sitting, and Ministers have to attend to the questions that come before it for consideration. They are travelling about the Commonwealth, and we find some of them going to a Conference in Adelaide when they ought to be devoting the whole of their time to the administration of their Departments. Within the last few days Ministers have been upstairs in this building, where they have been subjected to heckling because they have not enforced the policy of preference to unionists up to the hilt. The agent for the supply of steel to the Small Arms Factory told these people that if arrangements were made to double the output, he thought there would be no difficulty in supplying all the steel needed, and he advised the Department that if the Government would pay the increased price that their people would have to pay in London, they would be prepared to continue supplying them . But no action was taken. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- When was that statement made? In July last? **Mr. GREGORY.** - Only last month. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- That was when the statement was given in evidence; but when was the Government acquainted with the matter? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- About a month previously. I think I have shown that, the Government appear not to be in earnest in this matter. We were told to-day that they propose to import machinery for the manufacture of guns and shells, but that is only that they may in the' dim future start some big socialistic enterprise; it cannot be of the slightest utility so far as the present war is concerned. I hope that Ministers will concentrate all their efforts upon increasing the output of the Small Arms ^Factory. "I am a strong opponent of socialistic proposals, But if there is one enterprise that should be under Government control, it is the manufacture of small arms, and I willingly voted increased expenditure on machinery for our factory. In this matter credit should be given to those to whom it is due. It was **Sir Thomas** Ewing who began the Small Arms Factory. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- A socialistic enterprise which the honorable member condemns. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No. It is of great importance that our guns and ammunition shall be of the best, no matter what they may cost. Look at the revelations which we have had concerning the boots supplied to our troops. I would prosecute any manufacturer who supplied boots of an inferior quality. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- Does the honorable member know that there is any foundation for the report that boots, of an inferior quality have been supplied ? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have only the newspaper statements. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- The honorable member does not believe all that he reads in the newspapers. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- No; nor all that I hear from the other side. A lieutenant who recently returned from Egypt invalided told me that the boots with which he was supplied were the best that he had ever worn. I do not wish to disparage our own people, or our own manufactures. But I say that any manufacturer who supplies inferior goods to the troops should be made an example. The Minister of Defence has stated that a certain firm in Western Australia is not to have any more contracts, because of the bad -quality of the stuff they supplied, but I would prosecute such people. The Small Arms Factory was started by a Liberal, **Sir Thomas** Ewing. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Does not the honorable member think that he made a mistake in the selection of the site, and that that has increased the cost of the rifles produced there? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I consider the site a bad one, but it should not affect the cost of the rifles produced. It was the present Leader of the Opposition who gave instructions for the purchase of machinery for the factory. These facts should disprove the allegation that we on this side are trying to destroy, the factory. . . On the contrary, we wish to build it up. Captain Clarkson was sent to America to make inquiries regarding^ the cost of manufacturing rifles there; and, after visiting a number of factories, he reported that the cost to the Commonwealth of an imported rifle was £4 5s., but that, on the guarantee of Messrs. Pratt and Whitney as to the capacity of a plant which they could provide, rifles could be made here for *£1* 18s. each, or, adding lis. Id. for interest and depreciation, for £3 9s. Id., a saving of 15s. lid. per rifle. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- Captain Clarkson's estimate was too low, and he allowed too little for depreciation and interest. Further, he contemplated only the erection of buildings of galvanized iron sufficient for the housing of the machinery. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- That is so; but at present I am concerned only with the actual figures. According to the manager of the factory, the rifles now being made cost us £9 13s. 4d. each. For labour alone they cost *£b* 10s. 4d. Of course, a great deal of overtime is now being paid for, but the labour cost is more than double the estimated cost of labour and material. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- As the skill of the men increases, and the organization of the factory improves, the cost of the rifles produced will decrease. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It should do so. The specifications showed that in the machine shop only two skilled men were needed to 144 unskilled men. There are 497 employed there altogether. We did not ascertain' how many are in the tool shop, but there is no doubt that there are a larger number of men there than really should be employed. Perhaps, however, it is best not to raise any discussion as to the efficiency of the men, because they are undoubtedly as enthusiastic as possible over their work, "and extremely desirous to give every assistance to the Minister. The representatives of the workmen came and saw him, and he knew that the men were willing to work, not only two shifts, but two shifts of twelve hours each, with time off for meals. They we're prepared, also, to work on three Sundays OUt of four. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- If I were Minister, they would work three shifts of eight hours _ each, rather than two shifts of . twelve hours each. Under twelve-hour shifts you' do not get proper service. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It would be a mistake to try to work three shifts.' First class supervision is absolutely necessary, as the manufacture of rifles' is a very 'important work. ' Unskilled workmen, and even boys, can attend to a great number of the machines, and, as a matter of fact, in Belgium girls are employed on the machines, but there must be proper supervision. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- Are there not enough skilled men there to take charge? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The manager says not. The Committee made a special study of the question, and felt quite justified in recommending two shifts. I do not think one member of the Committee would recommend the establishment of three shifts at the present time. It is of no use to turn out a bad rifle, and, under present conditions, two shifts are all that can be carried out. {: #debate-30-s15 .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot .- It is unfortunately becoming only too clear to the whole Empire that this terrible war has reached a very serious stage. .A splendid opportunity is offered to the. Government, if they will only seize it, to materially increase the recruiting, and supply our soldiers with the necessary clothes, rifles, and ammunition. Although the Ministry have been slow and lax in many directions, the feeling throughout Australia is so splendid that they have only to take advantage of the grand offers being made to them, and put the right men in the fight place, for the country to become a hive of industry for the production of every necessity. The State Government are offering ^thenwholesouled assistance. They are» prepared to hand over all their factories, including such establishments as the Newport Workshops, while all those conducting private industries and commanding big factories are. offering to do all they can in the public interest. I am also, satisfied that the great bulk of the workmen, whether unionist or non-unionist, are only too willing to do their share if properly treated and told what to do. I am sorry the "Government have not seen their way clear to take the advice tendered, and accede to the requests made by the Leader of the Opposition, to drop party warfare. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- Why do you not move a motion of censure *on them ?* {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- We do not want to do that. We want to work together amicably in the general interest. The idea of stopping party warfare is not only in the mind 'of -the supposition . .All the great dailies"/ including 'the *Age* and the *Argus,* are' urging the same thing: These great papers are not altogether uninformed on public topics; they know that the situation is serious, and that not only the best minds in Parliament, but the whole community, should be galvanized into thinking alike, and acting for the common good. The Government have an opportunity to do it if they will onlytake it. Every man owes a duty to the Empire, and if the Government will not do what the Opposition requests them to do, all that is left for us is to sit here and offer healthy criticism to try to keep the Government up to the right pitch until the termination of the struggle. If Parliament were not sitting, and the Government were free to devote all their attention to the one issue, far greater results would be achieved in a great deal less time. There is an impression in some quarters that the Opposition desire the creation of a Coalition Ministry in order to secure positions of pay and profit. I am not aware of any move from this side to get the Government to . do any such thing. No member of the Opposition would think of joining such a Ministry unless requested to do so by the Prime Minister himself. It is apparent that in some parts of the country there are people who really think that the Opposition are suggesting a Coalition Ministry for selfish and ulterior motives. There is no truth in that suggestion. The question was first raised in this House by the honorable member for Bendigo. He put to the Prime Minister the question that gave rise to the idea. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- It was raised long before that. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I challenge honor-* able members opposite to point to any request made by this side to the Government to seriously consider the formation of a Coalition Ministry. I do not wish at this stage to criticise the Government harshly or unfairly, although the Minister of Defence has been extremely lax on one or two occasions. For instance, two Committees of the House have recommended, the institution of a second shift at the Small Arms Factory, but the Minister of Defence says that ten months ago he wanted a second shirt" there. He is the responsible Minister, and the man to whom Australia looks for a lead on the question- of munitions. Why did not ne institute a second shift ? The Amalgamated Society of Engineers, many of whom I happened to see when the Public Accounts Committee was takingevidence at the factory, were all willing to work a second shift, and, in fact, all suggested it. They could see no difficulty in the way of having a second shift in satisfactory working order within two or three months. Yet ten months ago the Minister of Defence had this brilliant idea of a second shift, and was going to institute it, but never did so. . The manager of the factory may have advised the Minister that it was impracticable, but why is the Minister putting in the second shift now? The manager's opinion to-day is what it was eight months ago - or what it was when he gave evidence before the Public Works Committee in Sydney recently. I do not want to criticise the Minister of Defence. No one can criticise him more harshly than he has criticised himself. Take, for instance, the matter of shells. The Minister says it is difficult to get formulae, and that he has been trying to' obtain formula? for months and months. Yet if the actions of the Minister are analyzed, step by step, great gaps will be found wherein he did nothing. Why ? He does not explain. The Minister now is taking something like what I consider to be the right course, in appointing an expert Committee to go into this question of munitions. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- Does that meet with your approval f {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- It does, so far as it goes; but I would far sooner see a Committee that was not composed so largely of men from his own Department. I know nothing about them individually, but they may be the very men who have been responsible for the inactivity of the Department during the past ten months - the very men whose advice may have been keeping the whole thing back. T do not say this is so - I do not know - but, in my opinion, it would be far better to have a Committee upon which captains of industry, good business men, would be represented. These are the men who may be relied upon to do something, because they know the ins and outs of trade. A Committee of this House, would have to spend a lot of time acquiring information before it reached the position a Committee composed of such men as I have indicated would occupy at the start. I do not care whether ' some' officers of the Defence Department and some members of 'Parliament are' on it,- but I trust the bulk of the Committee will come from the business community, who understand business and industry and know how to organize the resources of the country. Such a Committee would be able to get things going in the twinkling of an eye, as compared with the time it would occupy a Committee of this House or of officers from the Defence Department to do the same thing. The war is not a thing of the past. It is a thing of the present and the future, and it would be a fatal mistake if, in preparing to supply munitions, the Government did not recognise this fact. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- Every single man ought to volunteer, and you ought to lead the way. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I am quite willing to volunteer. An Honorable Member. - Do it now. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I am quite willing to do my share. {: .speaker-KEX} ##### Mr Finlayson: -- You are one of the few men we can spare. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I have an idea that I should be of as much use as some of my honorable friends. But the point is that the war is going on, and munitions and clothes are wanted now. I understand there are clothes made to the order of the Defence Department that cannot be removed from factories in Australia because inspectors have not been round to stamp them. Business men would not allow a thing like that to happen. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr Higgs: -- Why have they not been round ? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I do not know ; but surely when clothes are wanted so acutely" by the troops they should not be left for any length of time in the factories where they have been made, simply because inspectors cannot find time to put a brand on them. One good business man could remedy this in a very short time, but when it is left to the Defence Department, goodness only knows whenit will be done. These equipments have to be found now, not in the distant future, when some socialistic enterprise may be able to find them ; and I want to lay stress on this point, because I hope that in whatever is done business people - the people who will get things done in something like reasonable time - will be brought in. I can give nobetter illustrationof whatIrefer tothan provided by the Small Arms Factory. It is interesting to look at the history of this factory, and I refer to this as being calculated to show how much more satisfactory private enterprise is at the present time than socialistic undertakings. What may be the state of affairs in a hundred years hence I do not know. Socialistic enterprises may suit that period, but they do not suit the present period; and what we have to do has to be done now. You have been three years dilly-dallying with a Woollen Factory, and it is not going yet. But to come back to the Small Arms Factory. On 24th September, 1907, the then Minister of Defence, **Sir Thomas** Ewing, introduced the matter to the House by placing a sum of £32,000 on the Estimates for the erection of a factory. According to the explanation he gave to the House, this £32,000 represented an instalment of the cost of the machinery. He told the House that the total cost would be £65,000 for machinery, but that he only wanted £32,000 then because that was all he could spend during that year. In addition tothat sum, the Minister explained, £10,000 would be required for buildings, and the House was led to believe that £75,000 would build and equip the factory. {: .speaker-JTI} ##### Mr Burns: -- Were you supporting him in the matter? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I do not care whether I was, or whether I wasnot. That does not affect my argument. **Mr. Tudor.Did** you ever . read **Sir Thomas** Ewing's opinion of the present Leader of the Opposition? Mr.ATKINSON.- I have not; and I think the Minister would be showing himself a little more fitted for his position in these serious times if he would take a little interest in the business of the House. It is all very well for him to sit there as perky as a cock sparrow, but that attitude does not win battles. **Sir Thomas** Ewing promised that in about eighteen months or two years the factory would be turning out about fifty rifles per day, or 150 rifles daily if it worked three shifts. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- That merely shows that he had great faith. Why does not the honorable member exhibita little faith? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -I have; more faith than the Minister credits me with. But at the present time it is rifles and munitions that we require - not faith. The rifle which we were importing at the time **Sir Thomas** Ewing was Minister of Defence was costing us £5 7s. Nearly two years passed before tenders were accepted for the installation of machinery at the Small Arms Factory. It was estimated that that machinery would cost £68,000. About the time of which I am speaking a paper was submitted to this Parliament showing that the machinery, plant, and the motive power of the factory would cost, approximately, £92,144. The cost of the rifle was estimated at £3 9s. Id. But what has been the result ? Up to the 30th November last we had expended on plant, machinery, buildings, and equipment £182,186, and the rifles were costing more than £7 each. The Defence Department has muddled the entire business. If we wish to contrast Government action with private enterprise, wc have merely to turn our eyes to Newcastle, where the Broken Hill Proprietary Company have erected a plant worth £2,000,000- a plant which is turning out steel rails to-day, although nothing like two years have elapsed since the establishment was projected. I say that we have merely to look at what has been accomplished at Mount Lyell and Newcastle to realize the difference that exists between Government work and work undertaken by private enterprise. I say that the Defence Department should have taken expert advice in connexion with the establishment of a Small Arms Factory. I need hardly remind honorable members that there are1 very few of these factories in the world to-day. **Sir Thomas** Ewing thought that the estimates placed before him were correct, and Parliament accepted them in good faith. We now know that they have been very greatly exceeded. I wish to urge upon the Government the desirableness of endeavouring to organize as quickly as possible all the industrial resources of the Commonwealth, with a view to the production of munitions of war. In this matter we must recollect that time is Vh© essence of the contract. When I was fighting the last general election I found that it was impossible to secure good attendances at my meetings if I talked on ordinary political subjects, and, consequently,*.! had'ii'6 option but to 'discuss the war. I said then that. whatever schemes we might have for the future, they must, be left in abeyance until we had succeeded in humbling the foe. I pointed out that if Australia were to pass into the hands of Germany it would be idle for us to make plans. We know that **Mr. Lloyd** George recently stated that the production of munitions is one of our chief troubles. Ten months have passed since the outbreak of war, and nothing has been done towards ensuring the manufacture of shells. The Minister for Defence is now attempting to do something, but if he wishes to expedite action in this direction he must call in the captains of industry. The Department has no experts who are capable of organizing our industrial resources. The officials are not experts in this matter, and lack the necessary experience. Advantage should be taken of the splendid offers that have been made by private individuals, and by the State Governments, to expedite the production of urgently-required munitions. {: #debate-30-s16 .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EdenMonaro -- I do not intend to review the history of the Small Arms Factory. It seems to me that an impartial observer," upon reading our newspapers, must be astonished at the proceedings of this National Parliament. The truth is that we are engaged in debating all sorts of party questions, and that the party spirit is being exhibited upon both sides of the House. Such conduct is nothing short of disgraceful. Looking around this chamber, would anybody believe that we are at war ; that our men are being killed at the front; and that we require to focus all our attention upon the production of munitions, clothing, and rifles, if we are to bring this war to a successful issue? This evening, the honorable member for Wilmot has stated that he knows there isi clothing in our factories- {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- I did not say that. I said that I understood that there is. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- I have heard the statement made elsewhere. I do not regard these things as confidential. If I knew of them, I would have no hesitation in stating what I knew in this chamber. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- I will tell honorable members something. - 1 . {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -If there be any 'truth in the statement that there is clothing in our factories which the Government inspectors are too tired to inspect, notwithstanding that men are urgently in need of it, I say that those inspectors ought to be stood up against a stone wall and shot. I should be very glad to have first pot at them. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- They would be perfectly safe. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- The honorable member may regard this matter jocularly; but men who treat such a serious subject in that way ought to have their heads bumped against a stone wall, and. I would have very much pleasure in bumping them. I am not going to join iri the chorus of abuse of the Minister of Defence. I have a great respect for **Senator Pearce,** and he is having a very trying time, and needs help. The debate this evening has conclusively proved that the Minister ought to be in this House to answer for himself. The Government should appoint the honorable member for Maranoa as Minister of War or Minister of Munitions, to answer in this House all questions relating to defence. He knows what war means. He has faced the music of the guns, and is not likely to deal in a lighthearted way with any question relating to the war. I suggest that the Government should appoint him, or some other member of this House, as Minister of War or Munitions, so that we may have here a responsible Minister to answer our inquiries regarding the defence of this country, and to attend to these vital considerations. It is a disgrace to the Commonwealth that it should be possible for. such statements to be made as we sometimes hear in respect of defence matters. I have heard, for instance, that the gentleman on whose recommendation a second, shift was not introduced in the Small Arms Factory was the agent of the American company which supplied the machinery installed, in that factory, and that the fact that a second shift was not inaugurated would mean for that firm a repeat order for £100,000 worth of machinery. A Minister who would take the advice' of an interested man on a matter of that:kind would stand condemned. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- There is no trace of anything of the kind in evidence. {: #debate-30-s17 .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- CHAPMAN.- -At ' all events,' -when:* I hear a statement of tins kind,' I. am prepared to repeat it in the House, believing that it should be ventilated here. If any of these allegations are wrong, then any reference made to them in our debates will be censored. I am not afraid to state what I hear. I am not surprised at the assertion that has been made by the honorable member for Corangamite as to the inability of soldiers to obtain uniforms, and the further statement that there are uniforms in the factories awaiting inspection by officers who are too tired to inspect them, because many of these inspectors observe what fs known as the " Government stroke." We know what that means. The " Government stroke " means doing the least amount of work for the greatest amount of pay. I am not going at this stage to debate the question of private enterprise *versus* Socialism. This is not the time to consider where the rifles or the uniforms for our troops shall be secured. We want them, and must have them. The Minister of Home Affairs, who is at present in charge of the Committee, should be making a note of these complaints, instead of reading *Hansard* or a novel, as he is doing at the table at the present time. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- I am reading one of the honorable member's speeches. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN: -- Having regard to the intelligent way in which the Minister has taken notice of what has been said, I am surprised to hear that he can read at all. He should at least have the common decency to take a note of the damning statements which have been made during this debate, and to see that a reply is furnished to-morrow as to their truth or otherwise. I am opposed to the "Government stroke." In many avocations in this country men have not been doing more than two hours' work a day. Decent men working . alongside them are quite ashamed of them. There are a lot of hypocrites in this Parliament. I may be classed amongst the number for my failure yo speak of many of these matters ; but I cannot help saying that' the way in which money is being wasted is damnable. Whilst speak in this way, I wish it to be understood that 1 am not condemning trade unions. I have never been opposed to trade unionism. What I am opposed to is the political trade union) on which so many batten -and fatten. I employ a good deal of labour, and engage both '"unionists 'and non-unionists, being guided solely by the consideration-of who are the best men for the work I have to do. I cannot understand any man condemning trade unionists, who band themselves together to secure fair wages and better conditions of employment. Such men are entitled to consideration. But I warn the Government that they must be aware of the rotten system of the " Government stroke," and of the loafers who are battening and fattening on it. with the result that they must ultimately destroy the whole thing. I have known parties just as strong as the Labour party to fall like a house of cards because of their failure to deal with serious questions as they should be treated, and I do not hesitate to say that the Labour party will have a fall unless they alter their ways. They will come down just as suddenly as they have gone up. They cannot afford to treat serious matters as they have done to-day. Is it not absurd to find a Government coming forward with Bills to amend the Constitution, and with other party questions, while our men are being killed, at the Dardanelles? Unless they alter their ways the Labour party will be turned out by the1 people. I regret that my health is such that I- cannot say all that I think ought to be said here tonight. This Parliament is becoming a disgrace to the Commonwealth. The way in which its business is being conducted is a public scandal. I do not blame the Government for all of it, but there is certainly being displayed in the House behaviour which makes it more of a circus than a deliberative assembly. What must be the view taken of our proceedings by those who have sons and friends at the front? If honorable members are unable to realize the responsibilities of their position, we shall have the people talking presently of hanging some of them up to the nearest lamp post. Let us drop this funny business, show the people that we realize our responsibilities, and that we are determined to give serious and earnest consideration to the matters brought before us. We, on this side, no doubt, will try to forward the interests of our party just as the Labour party will try to forward their interests; but I appeal to honorable members at a time like this to forget all questions of party. We should stand together as ohe man. I do not suggest forone -moment that all' -the able and sincere men 'in the Parliament are to be found in the Opposition ranks. Neither can it be said that they are to be found only on the Government side. At the same time, I do not favour any coalition, because L do not think our views are likely to assimilate any more than oil and water .will mix. But the Leader of the Opposition, speaking on behalf of every member of his party, has said to the Government, " Go ahead with your war expenditure, we will help you in any reasonable proposal that you choose to make, but let us drop this cursed party fighting at the present juncture." The Leader of the Opposition has spoken fairly, and I urge the Government to accept his offer. The Parliament should be prorogued to enable Ministers to attend to the important work with which they have to deal. If that were done I think we should speedily have a better state of affairs. As it is, nasty "things are being said outside. I have heard it said of honorable members opposite, that judging by the way in which a lot of them are acting, one would imagine that they were pro-Germans. I do not share that view. I believe the Government are sincere and earnest, and I certainly wish to cast no reflection on the Minister of Home Affairs, because I believe that he is thoroughly sincere. But we are face to face with the most serious crisis in the life of the Commonwealth. Let us face the situation boldly, free from any consideration of whether the questions with which we have to deal affect any particular party. Let us encourage recruiting, and send more men to the front. The people insist that this shall be done. It is for the Government to take the lead. I am prepared tei do all that I can to assist them, and there are honorable, members on both sides who are anxious to do everything possible to encourage recruiting, but I repeat that the Government must give us the lead. Let us send more men to the front, and provide for their proper equipment. And above all tilings, do not let us turn this Parliament into a circus. We should respond to the national call just as the. Imperial Parliament has done. Let us do the right thing by our boys, who are spilling their blood for us, so that after the war is over we may be able to say that we have played our part-like men. {: #debate-30-s18 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield .- These, times demand a hearttoheart talks1, and ,1 believe that we have just had from the honorable member for Eden-Monaro a speech dictated by a very keen sense of public duty. I hope that the debate to-day will lead this Parliament to do the first things first. Our first duty is to concentrate all our energies, all the energies and resources of the people and the country, upon an effort to bring this war to a successful issue. In the Imperial Parliament **Mr. Asquith** confessed that experience had compelled him to recognise - >That there should be a broadening of the basis of Government in order to eliminate even the semblance of a one-sided party character. The coalition would demonstrate to the people at home, their fellow subjects overseas, the Allies, neutrals, and even their enemies, that Britons were more resolute than ever to obliterate all distinctions and to unite every political, moral, and material force in the prosecution of their cause. The position before us to-day, sir, is one absolutely unparalleled in history, and **Mr.** Asquith's message was directly addressed to every part of the Empire. "We have now, and have had ever since the war began, a powerful and continuous appeal from the principal newspapers of Australia to this Parliament to set aside everything possible, so that all its attention might be devoted to securing the maximum of efficiency in the part that we are playing in the great war which is convulsing a very great portion of the world. I was very pleased indeed this morning to read an inspiring and powerful appeal from the Melbourne *Age* to this House to lay aside all party considerations; and the appeal was more powerful, because that newspaper advocated even deferring the consideration of the Tariff for the present. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- A somersault. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr Webster: -- A week before it said that we ought to go on with the Tariff. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: -- I believe that that desire of the *Age* will be indorsed by all the people of this continent who have the true instincts of humanity, and it will be indorsed by the 50,000 homes in Australia which are directly connected with the war, because they have sons either fighting in the trenches now or preparing to make a supreme sacrifice, even to lay down their lives for Australia, for the Empire, and for the liberties of the human race. If it is necessary for appeals to be multiplied and strengthened we have the daily casualty list, and, unfortunately, iS is growing in seriousness every day. Surely these appeals ought to move the heart of every man in this Parliament when he remembers the part which our boys are playing at the front. The least we can expect is that, for their sakes, and for the sake of those who are going to follow them as long as ever it is necessary, we should lay aside everything for this first and chief consideration ; that we may be enabled to harness all the resources of Australia for the effective prosecution of this great work, in order that we may insure a victory, which is sure to come, but secure the victory with as little sacrifice of human life as possible. We have not secured the maximum of efficiency in that regard by a very long way. It is useless to hide or suppress the fact, because the more we realize what the position actually is, and the more we realize that we have not done all that we can, the more likely we are to be more successful in the days to come than we have been in the days that have passed. We want not only to drop party on the surface, but to drop it in any and every regard where it affects and diminishes the efficiency of our efforts in this greatest conflict in history. The Government know, and know unmistakably, that, as regards preparations for the troops, there has been anything but efficiency in some of the Departments. They have the report of **Mr. McC.** Anderson, and let me say here that we have not the whole of the report as submitted to the Government. It has been censored; it has been revised; and we only have what is on the very face »of the document stated to be an epitome. The Government may possibly have excellent reasons for withholding some part of the report. I am not going to find fault with them at this moment; 1/iit I do say that the report, as it stands, is eloquent testimony to the fact that we have had anything but efficiency, so far as war preparations are concerned. There is a desire to create another Government factory. That cannot be justified by any commercial or other considerations at this moment. We ought to organize, and, if necessary, to - commandeer private' factories, because we want immediate results. I regret exceedingly that we should have submitted to us* a proposal which cannot bear any fruit? so far as productive purposes are concerned until a period, I hope, long after the war will have been successfully completed. But we have the industrial agencies of Australia in existence to-day. There is a means of organizing these institutions and industries in the shape of the general committee which brings all the_ Chambers of Commerce in ' Australia into' touch and focuses their operations. In forty-eight hours the Minister of Defence, through this body, could arrive at facts and data that a Commission run in the ordinary way would take as many days to secure. Even in this very city of Melbourne the Defence Department, through the Chamber of Commerce, could set to work and within a few hours, by the touch of electric buttons, ascertain the extent of the resources of these organizations. By placing the Government's requirements before these bodies, direct and effective results would be obtained very speedily. In association with these captains of industry a proper number of industrial workers could be associated, and the co-operative efforts of such, a united body would result in production a hundred-fold better than anything we have yet achieved. Labour has come forward in the Old World in a most handsome manner to assist the Imperial Government in this tremendous business, and in many directions has said that during the currency of the war it is prepared to suspend any industrial conditions which might operate against the largest production that is humanly possible. Here in Australia, however, the position is the very reverse. Instead of Labour being prepared to remove restricting industrial conditions, they have been multiplied. We have heard the statement of the honorable member for Wilmot as to clothing awaiting inspection in some of the factories- for a considerable time; but I know that nearly all the principal factories in South Australia, with the finest possible equipment of machinery, are practically idle, so far as war requisites are concerned, because the unions in Australia, inversely to the unions at Home, are prepared to enforce all their restrictions, and even to increase them. It is not so long since there was introduced into **Mr. McGregor's** factory, in South Australia, regulation 31a, which meant bringing in the walking delegate. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- What has that matter to do with the-, creation of munitions? {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 -- Because it means the .creation of strife and strikes, instead of the promotion of industrial peace. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- Does the honorable member wish to put class against class? {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: -- No; nor do I wish this walking delegate to put class against class. He is the most fruitful source we have of industrial strife and industrial inefficiency and shrinkage of production, with consequent increase in the cost of living to the very people whom the honorable member and his friends are supposed to represent in this House. The factories in South Australia are controlled by a State Government official, whose business it is to watch the conditions under which the factory operatives work, and **Mr. McGregor** had the courage to tall the Federal Government that he would not have their walking delegate in his factory, while nearly all4 of- hia employees signed a statement that he was a model employer, and that their conditions were excellent. I can readily understand the ridicule displayed by my honorable friends opposite upon this particular question at a time of war, when our very existence and our future are imperilled. **Mr. McGregor's** operatives also urged the Federal Government not to apply these severe restrictions. In regard to the equipment of the first and- second contingents from South Australia, the military authorities there had very largely a free hand, and, as a result of employing the best factories, and all the assistance that they could get, these contingents were properly equipped in regard to uniforms and all accoutrements, except rifles, many weeks before the contingents in other States were ready; and if those same factories *z* whose fine machinery enabled this to be done in South Australia could now be employed in assisting to equip the men at Broadmeadows, we could have them ready many weeks before they can be equipped under existing conditions. With all the earnestness at my command, I join with my friend, the honorable member for Eden-Monaro, and say, let us in heart - not in speech, but in action - drop every semblance, as the British Prime Minister puts it, of party and party feeling. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- What is the honorable member doing now ? {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER: -I am, endeavouring, to get this House united, and I appeal to the consciences "of "honorable members to do what is in the interest of the nation, and to avoid bringing in measures of a most violent party character that must disintegrate rather than unite, a nation. If honorable members persist in bringing in these party measures, an everlasting disgrace will attach to this Parliament, and we shall be rightly condemned by the conscience of the community. {: #debate-30-s19 .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 .- Believing that the Committee has had enough of war matters for a while, I propose to change the subject. I am glad to note that the Ministers of the Departments about which I intend to speak are both in the chamber, and, taking these gentlemen in the order of seniority, I shall first deal with the Department of the Postmaster-General. Some time ago the House was gratified when a resolution was passed that some practical assistance be given to those mail contractors who, throughout many years, have rendered splendid service to this Commonwealth by despatching the mails in the back country along dreary roads in the difficult winter months. The resolution was supported by both sides of the House, and we were pleased to get the assurance of the Minister that a sum of £50,000 had been placed on the Estimates to afford relief to those men. I understand,- however, that up to to-day not one penny of relief has been granted, and owing to the movements of the market for fodder that sum of £50.000 is not worth what it was when the Minister gave us his assurance that it had been set aside for that purpose. For the information of the Committee I will read to-day's market quotations in Melbourne, as follows: - Chair - It is almost impossible to define values in this market, us there arc practically no sales on the platform, merchants retaining tho small consignments now coming forward for their own requirements. Up to £15 was mentioned yesterday, but some buyers would probably have paid more had it been possible to do business. The shunt at Spencer-street represented only seventeen truck loads. In the absence of supplies of straw chaff quotations arc purely nominal. The position generally is likely to remain acute until the arrival of the fodder which is being imported by the Government. The Postmaster-General has been assured in this House two or three times that this country is face to face with a fodder famine, and I am surprised that more prompt action twa's not taken by the' Minister when* the Government determined 'to put £50,000 at his disposal for those men. I am surprised that he did not proceed to see that the £50,000 would be worth £50,000, when the contractors actually got the money. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- It is being done as quickly as possible. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Nothing that the. Minister can say can possibly defend him. To-day the chaff sovereign, owing to the movement of the market, is only worth about 17s. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- I am not responsible for that. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Perhaps not, but the Minister is responsible for not having taken action earlier, and, as I think was suggested by the honorable member for Maranoa, entered into an arrangement with the States for supplies of fodder to these men in the country districts, these men who are expectant and hoping that the Minister will do something tangible to relieve them. The market has risen from £10 10s. per ton, when the advance was agreed upon, up to £15 in Victoria. The Victorian Government were the one Government to take prompt action to face this question of a fodder famine. We have Agricultural Departments with highly skilled men in charge, whose duty it is to obtain preharvest estimates of the fodder that is likely to be available for stock, and the wheat for the requirements of the people. In November last we knew that the* resources of the country would not see us through. What action has been taken? Sufficient action has not been taken throughout the country to meet this contingency. I do not blame the Minister as to that stage, but I do say that the Minister, when he determined to give some real assistance, should have taken action when he knew the money would be at his disposal . Can the Minister say how long it will be ? Could he not have had £50,000 worth of fodder ear-marked for this purpose ? If this had been done there would have been an immense saving to these men, whose resources have been shrinking almost to the point of exhaustion. Tho men have lost horses, and they are exhausted in spirit themselves. I hope the Minister will have some assurance to give us on this subject. I claim that owing to , the incapacity of his Department the money has shrunk "in value, and I hope he will increase it so as to really represent £50,000 worth of fodder on the basis of the earlier market values. {: .speaker-KGG} ##### Mr Hannan: -- The same argument ought to apply to the wage earners. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is not at all this Minister's particular responsibility. Another matter I wish to refer to is connected with the Department of the Minister of Trade and Customs, that genial Minister who generally gives us his best and constant attention. I want to draw the attention of the Minister to the methods of meat inspection in Australia, which I think are very unsatisfactory. In several of the States meat inspection for export is undertaken by non-qualified inspectors, men who hold no veterinary qualifications. I wish to point out that in 1913 the United States Department of Agriculture sent a Commission to Australia to inquire into the methods adopted here. That Commission found that there was a different standard of inspection in the various States, and that whilst in Queensland there was a staff of veterinary inspectors, and the methods generally were satisfactory, in the State of Victoria the position was so unsatisfactory that they condemned the methods. Perhaps the Minister has in his Department a record of that report. If so, I ask him is it not a fact that the United States of America will not import meat from Victoria ? If that is so, surely it is a very grave commentary on the administration of the Department? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- So far as I know, the statement is not correct. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Then will the Minister lay on the table of the House the report relative to that visit by the United States Commission ? If he has the report, I think he will find that my remarks can be borne out. Perhaps the Minister will give us an assurance that the report will be placed on the table. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I will have a look at it first. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- And if it bears out my statement, I suppose the Minister will not present it. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- If I think it is likely to do an injury to the meat trade ofAustralia I shall not give it publicity. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will the Minister tell us if, the report discriminates against the State of Victoria? If it does, then the position is very serious. Another matter that directly concerns the Minister of Trade and Customs is the system of attaching a tag or certificate to the meat for export. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I have seen it. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I will read it for the information of the Committee, and to refresh the Minister's memory. This tag is affixed to every carcass that leaves Australia for export, and it reads as follows : - >This meathas been examined by me, and by *ante-mortem* and *post-mortem* veterinary inspection is found to bo free from disease, and suitable in every way for human consumption. I want to ask the Minister this pertinent question : How is it possible for any one but a fully-qualified veterinary surgeon to give that certificate? I understand that in Victoria a medical man is in charge of the Department, and that those under him do not possess a veterinary surgeon's qualification. This surely is a serious matter. Are there not fullyqualified veterinary surgeons to be had in Victoria? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I think it is difficult to obtain them. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- It has been difficult; but the universities of Sydney and Melbourne are now trying to supply qualified men. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Another matterI want to mention relates to the Quarantine Branch, which is under the Minister's control. There is an anomaly there. The matter of quarantined animals imported into Australia is also in the charge of a medical man. Now, if a supervising veterinary inspector had charge, both of the export ofmeat and the importation of animals, the whole difficulty would be overcome, and we would have the assurance that both the *ante-mortem* and *postmortem* examinations had been undertaken by a fully qualified veterinary surgeon. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- The *ante-mortem* examination does not take place. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Evidently that is so, and therefore it must nullify this certificate which is attached to meat for export. I submit that this is a serious matter. If, as the result of the policy of the Department, the United Statesof America discriminates against Victoria, the position is serious, and we should call on the Minister to rectify the anomaly I have the assurance of the Professor in charge of the Veterinary Faculty at the Melbourne University that he can place at the disposal of the Minister thoroughly qualified veterinary surgeons to take charge of both the quarantine and meat inspection branches. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- The Victorian Government are doing the work. Do you suggest that it should be done by the Commonwealth instead ? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do. I say the responsibility is on the Minister's shoulders. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- That would involve a duplication of officers. In Queensland the work is carried out by the State Government, and they, recently appointed several qualified veterinary surgeons. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- My answer to both the Minister and the honorable member for Darling Downs is that the meat export trade is too large, and is growing too rapidly, to allow of any risks being taken. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- We are introducing new regulations, and I think the fees are to be increased. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In New Zealand the Treasury is 'relieved' of any charge 'for meat inspection, the whole cost being borne by the industry. That, I think, is a fair proposition. If the Minister will place the export of meat under properly qualified veterinary experts, whose certificate will be worth the paper it is written on, I will support him in making the industry bear the expense, which would amount to perhaps not more than a penny per carcass. I trust that the Minister will look into this matter, and within the' next few days will give an assurance to the House that steps in the direction I have indicated will be taken, even though we have to go the length of disturbing the arrangement with the State, or recasting that arrangement so that the State Government shall employ in this work only fully qualified veterinary surgeons. Such a step would be in the interests of the meat export trade, and it would be only a fair return to the young Australians who pass through a severe veterinary course that those who are qualified should be selected for this important work. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I have been investigating the matter, and **Mr. Drysdale** Brown interviewed ' rae on the subject six or eight weeks ago. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- The Minister will have to appoint qualified men if we are to capture the United States trade. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is so. As a Victorian, I object to any discrimination against the meat supplies of this State, so that they do not enjoy the same market throughout the world as the meats from the other States do. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- It is a Commonwealth tag, not a Victorian one, that is used. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I know it is; but if there is discrimination against the meat of one particular State because the overseas buyers cannot be satisfied that a fully qualified veterinary inspection has been made, the Minister surely cannot fail to take action. There is another matter to which I desire to refer. Last year this House voted a sum of £150 towards the expenses of the attendance of the Chief Veterinary Officer of Victoria at the International Congress of Veterinarians in London. That conference dealt with the whole of the diseases to which the stock life of Australia is heir, and its deliberations were of great importance. . The Victorian Government also paid its proportion of the expenses of **Mr. Robertson,** the officer to whom I refer, but I have not heard if any report was furnished to the Commonwealth by **Mr. Robertson.** If such a report is in the possession of the Government, I ask the Minister to place it at the disposal of Parliament, because its advantages should be many, inasmuch as it deals with the stock diseases of all countries. Australia is free of the chief diseases which are the bane of meat exporters in many other countries. Our representative should have been able to inform the Congress that Australia surpasses other countries in regard to climate, freedom from disease, and opportunities for. stock raising, and I hope that the Minister will see that the report is placed at the disposal of the House. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- 1 cannot understand why **Mr. Cummins** Cherry was not sent". {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The reason was that it was thought to be an advantage that a man practising in Australia, and acquainted .with the diseases here, should attend the Congress, so that when -he returned he. would be able to attend conferences' in the various States, a'nd spread throughout Australia the .knowledge he had gained. That was why a man actively engaged in administering a Department was appointed to represent Australia instead of a man who, for the time being, was out of touch with the Commonwealth. I should also like the Minister to lay on the table of the House the report by the departmental veterinary officers who inspected the abattoirs and freezing works subsequent to the visit of the American Commission. That report would be of special value, and would show in what respect the present system is deficient. An occasion like the present should not be allowed to pass without some reference to the conduct of the war. In this chamber and out of it my attitude on the subject is that whatever assistance I can give the Government to aid recruiting or the organization directly behind them of all the resources of the country, I shall be only too pleased to give. "What I object to is that, while that is the spirit animating the whole of the Opposition, and, I believe, the whole of the people of the country to-day, the Government will insist upon bringing forward contentious legislation. On my return to town this week, when I picked up a daily newspaper, I read a report of a speech by the Prime Minister at a meeting of the Chamber of Manufactures. On reading it I thought that the week-end had been well spent by the Caucus in determining to eschew party politics. At the meeting referred to the Prime Minister said - He thanked **Mr. Brookes** for the frankness of the statements he had made. He was happy to learn from him that private enterprise had, from patriotic motives, been making no profits at this time. He was afraid that that could only last a short time, because it could not be expected that people would work without profits sufficient to keep their business going. At a later stage he said - and this is what I wish particularly to refer to- >He did not speak as the Government or as a party. There was no party in Australia just now. There ought to be none. That statement was very properly received with loud cheers. That is the spirit which I was hopeful would pervade this House this week. I am satisfied that the sentiment there expressed by the Prime Minister would be welcomed throughout the Commonwealth by the supporters of both political parties. If the Prime Minister had said *here, "* "We are in charge of the government of this country, and are specially charged with the conduct of the war, and we have determined that all contentious and party questions shall be put on one side, and all the resources of the Commonwealth, political, social, industrial, and economical, marshalled behind the Government for the successful prosecution of the war," honorable members on both sides, and their supporters throughout the country, would have welcomed such an announcement, and it would have raised the Prime Minister of Australia to a pedestal as high as that occupied at the present time by the Prime Minister of Great Britain. But, to my disgust, when I entered the chamber this week I found that there are two **Mr. Fishers.** The Prime Minister has, through his Attorney-General, introduced in this House six of the most highlycontentious party measures that could he suggested in Australia - the Referenda Bills. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The most highly beneficial measures. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That may be, but the honorable member must recognise that two acute party campaigns have already been fought in connexion with them, and, in the circumstances, the furthest stretch of imagination cannot describe them as non-contentious. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- They are national questions. {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is all very well for the honorable member to say that kind of thing out in the country, but to look any member of this House in the face and say such a thing is to talk " bosh," which I do not care to .see recorded in *Mansard.* Australia is in mourning, and every day there is cause for deeper mourning. Is this a time at which to ask the widows, mothers, and relatives of our fallen soldiers to attend party meetings and wrangle about party questions? I hope it is not too late to raise a protest, and that the Government will yet reconsider their decision, and refrain from plunging the nation in mourning into a bitter party conflict. I make this declaration, regardless of the results, that I refuse to take any platform in connexion with the referenda campaign until the war is over. That is my attitude on party questions at this time. I feel that if the Prime Minister were called upon alone to determine. the question we should have found that there was only one Mr.Fisher, and that he is the gentleman who said at the Chamber of Manufactures - " There was no party in Australia now. There ought to be none." Surely that statement was clear and unequivocal? {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- The honorable member says that there should be no party conflict over the referenda proposals. Why did he take the platform at recent by-elections when the seats of members of this party were in jeopardy? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I had not the determination of that matter. I presume that the candidates for those seats decided that question. I believe that if the Prime Minister had alone the determination of the matter he would turn down any proposal to engage in a party conflict at this time. I regret, however, to say that there is a higher power than even that of the supporters of the Government in this chamber. The honorable member for Calare the other day very aptly termed that power "the Super-Parliament of Australia." That is the body that has determined this question. About the beginning of this month it was determined by the Labour Conference at Adelaide that the referenda proposals should be put again, and immediately, to the people. {: .speaker-KLG} ##### Mr Mahony: -- Does the honorable member object to conferences? {: .speaker-KZT} ##### Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No; what I object to is a surrender of the principle of responsible government. I tried a few days ago to make some reference to some of the findings of the Labour Conference. One of them annoyed me very much. I refer to the decision to re-enact further land taxation, and at once. I asked a question on the subject in this House, but the Speaker thought that I had no right to ask it, and I refrained from taking the matter further. Two resolutions were carried at the Conference, and a vigilance, or watch-dog, committee was appointed there to " put the acid " on the Government if they did not carry out those resolutions. We have two great Labour executives in Australia, one selected by the people, and responsible to them, and another, which is the " top dog," not selected by the people and not directly re sponsible to them. **Mr. Holman's** criticism of the Conference was a valuable contribution. He pointed out that in this House we have a representation of the people on a truly democratic basis. The people speak through their representatives hero in proportion to their numerical strength, but at the Adelaide Conference the representation was on the same basis as that of the Senate, in which a little State like Tasmania has the same representation as any other State in the Commonwealth. {: #debate-30-s20 .speaker-JMG} ##### The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson:
WILMOT, TASMANIA -- Order ! The honorable member's time has expired. Question resolved in the affirmative. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended. Report adopted. Resolution of Ways and Means founded on resolution of Committee of Supply reported and adopted. *Ordered -* >That **Mr. Spence** and **Mr. Hughes** do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented and passed through all its stages without amendment. {: .page-start } page 4150 {:#debate-31} ### SPIRITS BILL Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 4150 {:#debate-32} ### ADJOURNMENT {: #debate-32-s0 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - That the House do now adjourn. To-morrow, it is intended to formally introduce the Bills of which I gave notice yesterday. When they have been advanced to the first-reading stage, we shall continue the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of the Prime Minister, and it is desired to finish them by the adjournment. {: #debate-32-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- We shall be happy to assist to put through the Estimates of the PostmasterGeneral's Department to-morrow, but as to the little formal business referred to, I am not so sure at the moment. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 10.12 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 17 June 1915, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1915/19150617_reps_6_77/>.

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