House of Representatives
30 April 1915

6th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read pray ers.

page 2813

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Congratulations from the King:

Allowance to Widows : Health and News of Troops in Egypt: Recruiting: Despatch of Troops: War Precautions Bill: Unionists Enlisted : Medical Examinations.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– I desire to read a telegram which has been received from His

Majesty the King. It ia dated Buckingham Palace, 29th April, 1915, and is as follows : -

I heartily congratulate you upon the splendid conduct and bravery displayed by the Australian troops in the operations at the Dardanelles, who have indeed proved themselves worthy sons of the Empire.

GEORGE B.I.

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The Assistant Minister of Defence told us yesterday that the Government has resolved to increase the separation allowance of women whose husbands are at the front. Have Ministers given further consideration to the request that I made yesterday’ that the allowance to widows who have sons at the front on whom they depend may be increased ?

Mr JENSEN:
Assistant Minister · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

– I had a consultation with the Minister of Defence this morning, and am in a position to say that it is the intention of the Department to increase by 10s. a week the allowance paid to widows with sons at the front who are their sole support, thus putting them on the same footing as the wives of soldiers abroad.

Dr CARTY SALMON:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA

– Has the Government received any report in regard to the physical condition of the troops who have recently been in Egypt, with special reference to the alleged defects in the medical examination of the troops ?

Mr JENSEN:

– We are continually receiving reports from, those in command at the front. I do not know of any special report such as the honorable member asks for, but I shall make inquiries, and let him know.

Dr CARTY SALMON:

– Will the Minister consult the issue of the Argus of the 24th April, in which a letter purporting to come from a leading medical officer attached to the First Expeditionary Force to a practitioner in Melbourne, says -

You would not believe the number of derelicts who have been passed as medically fit, but who have now to be returned to Australia at the public expense. How such cripples ever- passed the medical and riding tests I cannot conceive.

I ask the Minister also whether he will not inquire why a leading medical officer who was a member of the First Expeditionary Force should not have communicated with those .who are in authority rather than with a friend in Australia? I further ask how it is that the censors who are fairly well paid for the services they render, have been so wanting in their duties as to allow such a paragraph to appear In the press in Australia?

Mr JENSEN:

– I shall be pleased to comply with the request of the honorable member in regard to the letter which has appeared in the Argus. It is right that any medical man who is at the front should communicate with the Defence Department, seeing that he is in such a responsible position.

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Has the Prime Min.ister any information later than that ‘ which appeared in this morning’s newspapers regarding the series of actions in which our troops are or have been engaged in the Dardanelles? If he has not, will he make an effort to obtain that information, seeing that there is now considerable anxiety in the minds of many persons in Australia ?

Mr FISHER:

– Our information on the subject is not materially greater than that which has been made available to the public. We have invited the Imperial Government more than once to supply us with all details as soon as they can.

Mr Fowler:

– To be made public ?

Mr FISHER:

– Yes, as soon as they give permission. Whatever our feelings may be, we must, I take it, stand by what they consider the necessities of the war.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Can the AssistantMinister inform the House whether, if additional equipment were provided, the recruits offering would enable us to send more troops to the front than the Government can despatch at the present time?

Mr JENSEN:

– The Government is despatching every man that the British Government has requested.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is it a fact that the Imperial Government has at any time made any request for the desptch of troops from Australia, and is it the policy of the Government to -despatch only such troops as may be requested by the Imperial Government?

Mr FISHER:

– It is not.

Mr JENSEN:

– Before troops are despatched from Australia an offer is made to the Imperial authorities. We have now two further brigades undergoing preparation. They have been offered and have been accepted. Sometimes it is two or three weeks after the making of an offer that the Imperial authorities accept it.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The honorable member should have said that Australia has despatched as many troops as the Imperial Government has consented to receive, not as many as it has requested.

Mr JENSEN:

– During the discussion of the War Precautions Bill last night, the honorable member for Darwin stated that we were creating in this country a military despotism, and in this morning’s Age I am reported to have interjected this statement -

Let me tell you that no Minister of Defence has had anything to do with this Bill.

The Age report is entirely incorrect and ridiculous. What I said was that no member of the Military Forces had had anything to do with the Bill.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I wish to ask the Assistant-Minister of Defence a question arising out of an answer which he furnished to the House yesterday. I would not ask these questions but that I am afraid the Minister’s answers are giving a wrong impression outside. The Minister said yesterday that the Defence Department were equipping and despatching all the troops required by the Imperial Government. I ask him now if it is not a fact that the Imperial Government will accept any number of troops that we can despatch and send ?

Mr JENSEN:

– The right honorable gentleman at least, among honorable members opposite, should know that at the present juncture it is hardly right to submit such a question.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I know nothing of the kind.

Mr JENSEN:

– The right honorable gentleman was Prime Minister of this Commonwealth, when-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member has already replied and cannot debate the matter.

Mr GROOM:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– Yesterday the AssistantMinister of Defence volunteered the statement that 70 per cent. of those who have enlisted in Australia are unionists, and he described his statement as being fairly accurate, whereas the Labour Bulletin, issued on the 15th March, and based on returns received to the 31st January, 1915, shows that of the total enlisted, namely 53,000, there were 23,300 members of unions and 30,600 other persons.

Mr Page:

– What does it matter so long as they enlist?

Mr GROOM:

– I quite agree with the honorable member, and I regret that the return was prepared, but in view of the statement of the Assistant-Minister, I wish to know which figures are correct, those given by Mr. Knibbs or those given by the Assistant Minister.

Mr JENSEN:

– I think that the Federal Statistician stated that he had received no returns from the Australian Workers Union, which is the biggest Labour organisation in Australia.

Mr HANNAN:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

– Is the Assistant Minister of Defence aware of the fact that 12,000 members of the Australian Workers Union, numbers which were not included in the figures quoted by the honorable member for Darling Downs, have volunteered? Also that a number of those who have gone to the front, and who are not included among those described as members of unions, are men who were employed in positions which did not make them eligible for membership of trade unions?

Mr JENSEN:

– I can say no more than that I have heard the statement made that a great number of members of the Australian Workers Union have not been included in the Federal Statistician’s report.

page 2815

QUESTION

TASMANIAN FRUIT-GROWERS

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Seeing that a number of Tasmanian fruit-growers are likely to suffer pecuniary loss through being unable to obtain space for the export of their fruit, will the Minister of Trade and Customs try to arrange for the provision of such space ?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– The British Government has commandeered the whole of the refrigerated or insulated space on all vessels trading between Great Britain and the Commonwealth, and has appointed me to act as its agent in Australia, and the Dominion Minister of Customs to act as its agent in New Zealand. It has asked that preference shall be given to the transport of meat, as meat is the commodity that it chiefly desires. If there is an opportunity to obtain space anywhere for the export of fruit or other commodities, honorable members may rest assured that every part of Australia will get the fairest of fair deals from me.

page 2816

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Allowance Post-offices : Comptroller of Stores : Mail Contractors.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

– Is the Postmaster-General aware that the Department over which he has the honour to preside is now cutting down the payments made to those in charge of allowance post-offices in the backblocks to such an extent that many of these persons are throwing up their positions, necessitating the closing of the post-offices, and causing inconvenience to the people of the district? These offices are being reduced to the state of the London sweat shops, but there is no similar reduction in regard to city offices. I hope that the Postmaster-General will look into the matter, and will give a Christian answer to my question.

Mr SPENCE:
Postmaster-General · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There has been no change in the scale of payment to allowance officers.

Mr Page:

– Then it is time to make one.

Mr SPENCE:

– Those in charge of allowance offices are not being sweated. The Department does not pretend to pay them salaries.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– For years they have been promised an increase.

Mr SPENCE:

– They were given, an increase when the Labour party was last in power, and there has been no change since.

Mr Page:

– One shilling and threepence a week !

Mr SPENCE:

– If the payments to any allowance post officer have been reduced, it is in accordance with the scale, and by reason of a decrease in the business in the office.

Mr PAGE:

– It is stated in to-day’s Age that the Government intends to appoint a Comptroller of Stores in connexion with the Post Office. Is it intended to invite applications from those outside the Service, as well as from those inside the Service?

Mr SPENCE:

– Applications are not confined to the Commonwealth Service.

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Postmaster-General confer with the Ministers of Defence and Home Affairs as to the advisability of consolidating the stores branch of the different Departments, with a view to creating one general stores branch for the whole of the Public Service, so that economy and greater efficiency may be attained ?

Mr SPENCE:

– I have no objection to consulting with the Minister of Defence or the Minister of Home Affairs, but I do not think there would be any advantage gained. Almost all the departmental stores differ.

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I direct the attention of the Postmaster-General to a letter that I received this morning, on which I desire to base a question. The letter was in reply to a request made by me for further consideration for the mail contractors who had been so badly hit by the high price of fodder. I draw attention to this passage in it -

The general question of granting relief to mail contractors on account of the drought has already been given careful consideration, but it is not seen how, without inflicting a grave injustice on tenderers, and striking at the fundamental principle of public tendering for mail services, any consideration can beshown to contractors by way of increasing their subsidy during the currency of their contract. The contracts are let both in good years and in bad years, and tenderers understand that they must make provision in their tenders to meet the vicissitudes of the weather.

The communication adds that the concession offered by the Department is that services may be reduced 50 per cent., with a subsidy of 25 per cent. I ask the PostmasterGeneral whether he is not aware that horses have to be fed, whether they make two trips a week or a trip a day ? It is impossible, at thepresent time, to turn them out when they are not running. I ask him to again consider the representations that have been made to him on behalf of the mail contractors.

Mr SPENCE:

– The Department has entered into over 5,000 mail contracts, many of which are being carried out with motor cars. Since the drought, some of the contractors have substituted motor cars for horse-drawn vehicles. Of the contractors who are still using horses, while some have to feed their horses, others are able to obtain grass. All are not in the same position. The problem with which the Department has to deal is a most difficult one. A large number of the contracts were let last December, in the middle of the drought, and the contractors knew the conditions when they ten dereel. Doubtless their prices were higher than they WOuld have been under ordinary conditions. The Department does not demand a refund when seasons prove to bp unexpectedly good, and it would be an unsound business arrangement to increase subsidies when a bad season was being experienced. To do this would be unfair to those persons who, having calculated the probability of a bad season, had tendered at a higher price than those who succeeded in getting the contract. To increase the subsidies in the manner now proposed would cost an enormous sum of money, and could not be done in the offhand way that seems to be thought possible.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– In view of the disorganized state of the country mail services consequent on the increased price, of fodder, the weakening of horses, and so forth, will the Postmaster-General and his Government take the advance step, where possible, of instituting motor services? In one or two cases where motor services have been established, they are paying propositions. The Department can obtain cheap cars. If they do this, it will be a forward step.

Mr SPENCE:

– The honorable member has suggested to the Government a policy in the form of a question, to which, of course, I cannot reply. If we undertake the carrying of mails, we deprive a great many people of a means of livelihood, because, at present, the carrying of passengers is carried on in conjunction with the carrying of mails. I am surprised at the honorable member suggesting this.

page 2817

QUESTION

NAVIGATION ACT

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Some days ago I asked the Minister of Trade and Customs a question relating to a statement appearing in the press to the effect that an attempt had been made to combine two impossible functions in one officer, and he promised that he would go into the matter; has he done so?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The honorable member’s question was whether, in connexion with the Navigation Department, we were calling for one person to fill the combined positions of examiner of masters and mates, and ship’s surveyor. Two advertisements have appeared; one calling foi applications for the position of examiner of masters and mates and ship’s surveyor, and the other calling for applications for the position of surveyor. The first advertisement called for persons qualified not only to act as examiner of masters and mates, but also to deal with the rigging and safety provisions on ships’ decks; that is to say, the person appointed would need to be a surveyor as well as an examiner of masters and mates. The second advertisement applied only to persons qualified to act as surveyors of ships’ hulls, boilers, and engines. The advertisements related to separate offices, and not, as stated in the paragraph in the press, to one person combining two impossible positions.

page 2817

QUESTION

INTERNMENT CAMPS

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Assistant Minister of Defence have any objection to informing the House next week as to the location, and capacity of, and the present numbers confined in, German concentration camps in Australia?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I shall endeavour to comply with the honorable member’s request.

page 2817

QUESTION

REMOVAL OF PARLIAMENT TO CANBERRA

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– Seeing that several of the more important works at the Federal Capital are approaching completion, have the Government arrived at any idea of the time when Parliament will be removed to Canberra?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– No ; but the sooner we remove to Canberra the better I shall like it.

page 2817

PATENTS, TRADE MARKS, AND DESIGNS BILL (No. 3)

Bill presented by Mr. Hughes and read a first time.

page 2817

QUESTION

PRICE OF COMMODITIES

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– In view of the figures supplied by Mr. Knibbs on the 15th of this month, which I take it were accurate, but which gave the price of rump steak as 9¾d. in Melbourne, when I know that it is being sold at ls., and butter at ls. 7d. per lb. when I know that it is being sold at 2s. per lb., will the Minister of Home Affairs next week give us up-to-date figures as to the price at which these commodities are being sold in Sydney and Melbourne?

Mr ARCHIBALD:
Minister for Home Affairs · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I am not in a position to say whether the figures can be obtained before Wednesday.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Were the figures you supplied wholesale or retail prices ?

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– I should say that they were average prices. Prices vary in all cities, depending very greatly on whether the dealer is paid in cash or whether he has to wait three or six months for his money.

page 2818

QUESTION

INTER-STATE COMMISSION

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– Seeing that the present Government was recently returned to power to carry out a Protectionist mandate, would the Minister of Trade and Customs be going too far out of his way in intimating to the gentlemen on the Inter-State Commission that the House and the Government expect from them a statement somewhat in accordance with the real evidence that has been submitted to the Commission, and not a report that has evidently been dictated by their own Free-trade proclivities?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– I have every confidence in the Inter-State Commission. It has furnished a preliminary report which I believe is in accordance with the views of the gentlemen comprising the Commission, though it may not be in accordance with the views of honorable members of the House.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– But it is not in accordance with the evidence.

Mr TUDOR:

– I understand that only certain of the evidence is published, and that the Commission obtained evidence confidentially. It is quite possible that some of the decisions may have been based on that evidence. I suggest that it would be advisable to await some of the Commission’s detailed reports.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– How long shall we have to wait ?

Mr TUDOR:

– I cannot say.

page 2818

QUESTION

RIFLE CLUBS

Mr ORCHARD:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Assistant Minister of Defence aware that a very serious check to the rifle club movement in New South Wales is being experienced owing to the shortage of rifles? Will he inform the House as to when we are likely to have sufficient rifles for the members of this very important section of our Defence Forces ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I am not willing to answer the honorable member’s question. He may put it on the notice-paper if he wishes.

page 2818

QUESTION

EXPORT OF COAL

Mr CHARLTON:

– Is the Minister of Trade and Customs aware that in consequence of the regulations that were found necessary at the outbreak of war, governing the export of coal to foreign parts, a very large number of men are now out of employment? Seeing that the Pacific is clear of the foe, can anything be done to give relief in that direction?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The Customs Department is only acting for the Defence Department in the matter, but I shall make representations to the proper authorities, and if the Defence Department see their way clear to have the embargo removed, I shall be delighted to have it done.

page 2818

QUESTION

FODDER IN NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the attention of the Postmaster-General been directed to a paragraph in this morning’s paper in which it is stated that the New South Wales Government intend to acquire all the fodder in that State? Is he also aware that the past policy of the New South Wales Government has been to supply farmers only with seed for the purpose of putting in wheat? Will he get into communication with the New South Wales Government and ask that fodder should also be supplied to mail contractors on reasonable terms and on a deferred system of payment?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– I have not seen the paragraph. I may take some action when it is brought under my notice.

page 2818

QUESTION

OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister when I may expect a reply to the representations I made to him some time ago to the effect that the Commissioner for Old-age Pensions sets himself up as a censor of public morals in assessing what he considers to be the claims1 of pensioners. The applications of claimants have been refused on the ground that their past life has not been in conformity with the moral standard set up by the Commissioner for Old-age Pensions.

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I do not remember the question being submitted before.

Mr Brennan:

– Only by letter.

Mr FISHER:

– I have heard nothing of it. The Government specifically states that under certain conditions, which the honorable member may consider are moral conditions, pensions may not be granted. That is statutory, and therefore it is the duty of officers to so report and so carry out the Act. If any injustice has arisen I shall be very glad of particulars; but it is my duty to protect the chief officers of my own Department and of other Departments against insinuations that they are merely censors, when they are engaged in carrying out their duties under the statutory authority of Parliament.

Mr BRENNAN:

– Will the Prime Minister, when the opportunity offers, and as soon as he has time, afford me a reply to communications in which I gave definite and detailed information in regard to the matter of old-age pensions, and in respect of which I have made complaints respecting the Commissioner’s attitude?

Mr FISHER:

– I will give it to the honorable member to-morrow, if not to-day.

page 2819

QUESTION

TURK IN CENSOR’S OFFICE

Mr POYNTON:

– Some little time ago I directed the Prime Minister’s attention to the fact that a secretary of the Young Turks Association was employed in the Censor’s office in Adelaide. Has the Prime Minister made any inquiries as to that statement? What has been done in the matter?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I remember the question. I mentioned it to the Minister of Defence, and shall furnish the honorable member with advice as soon as possible.

page 2819

QUESTION

TAX COLLECTION IN DROUGHT AREAS

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I should like to ask the Prime Minister if he will be good enough to take into consideration the desirability of having a Drought Bill prepared with the object of giving relief to taxpayers residing within the drought area. Will he be good enough to ask the Federal Land Tax Commissioner to deal leniently with those people?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– When we amended the Act last year we extended the powers of the Commissioner in that direction, and I have every reason to believe that he is giving full consideration to the scope of that new provision.

page 2819

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN NOTES PAPER

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In this morning’s press there appears the statement by an expert giving evidence in the Crown prosecution in connexion with the notes trouble that Commonwealth bank notes are printed on paper of a poor quality. Will the Prime Minister make inquiries and see if that is the fact or not?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– There was a time quite recently when we found it extremely difficult to get the very best paper. The circumstances are being guarded against as efficiently as possible.

page 2819

QUESTION

VOTING AT THE GENERAL ELECTION

Sir JOHN” FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Has he received, and, if so, will he place on the table of the House, the report by the Commonwealth Chief Electoral Officer on the last general election, on 5th September, 1914?
  2. Has the examination of the voting disclosed any duplicate voting, or any impersonation, in any subdivisions, and, if so, in which subdivisions, and to what extent?
  3. Have any other breaches of the law of an important nature been discovered ?
Mr ARCHIBALD:
ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s questions is - 1 and 2. The Chief Electoral Officer has submitted -

  1. a detailed report as to the voting at the elections held on the 5th September, 1914;
  2. a report as to the number of cases in which the names of individual electors were marked more than once on the certified lists of voters used at the polling.

The first-mentioned report has already been tabled, and I now have pleasure in tabling the second report.

Whilst the examination of the voting discloses that 3,405 names in a total of 2,042,336 electors to whom ballot-papers were issued (.167 per cent.) were marked more than once at the polling, it may not be inferred that the persons concerned voted more than once, or were impersonated.

Experience shows that it is impracticable to avoid a small percentage of clerical errors in marking the rolls at the polling.

  1. Four breaches of the law in connexion with the elections were detected and brought before the Courts. In three cases convictions were obtained, and in the other case the magistrate decided against the Administration, but considered that the proceedings were fully justified.

page 2820

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

Statement showing the result of the checking of the Certified Lists and Bolls used in connexion with the Elections held on the 5th September, 1914. {: .page-start } page 2820 {:#debate-18} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-18-0} #### SOLDIERS RETURNED FROM EGYPT {: #subdebate-18-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What has been the cost of equipping, training, feeding, paying, transporting, &c, each of the members of the Australian Expeditionary Forces who have been returned to Australia for disciplinary reasons? 1. At what period did the pay of these men cease ? {: #subdebate-18-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- The information asked for, which will take some time to prepare, will be furnished as early as possible. {: .page-start } page 2820 {:#debate-19} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-19-0} #### SHIPPING ACCOMMODATION {: #subdebate-19-0-s0 .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr BURCHELL:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* >Whether he has seen the reports in the daily press relative to the slackening of passenger trade between England and America, with its consequential surplus of shipping tonnage. Further, has he seen the proposal to alter these vessels *to* render them suitable for cargo carrying. In view of the great difficulty experienced by shippers to and from Australia in securing sufficient steamers to convey their products to oversea markets, will he represent to the Imperial authorities how greatly Australia would appreciate the alteration of these vessels as proposed ? {: #subdebate-19-0-s1 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
ALP -- I am not aware that the slackening of the passenger trade between England and America has resulted in any surplus of tonnage suitable for the Australian trade. As regards the present difficulty in the shipment of Australian perishable products to England, it is probable that the operation of the Imperial Order in Council requisitioning the whole of the refrigerated space in steamship lines running from here to the United Kingdom, which space will be allocated here by the Commonwealth Government. in accordance with the requirements of the several States, will considerably relieve the situation. {: .page-start } page 2821 {:#debate-20} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-20-0} #### BROADMEADOWS CAMP Health of Troops {: #subdebate-20-0-s0 .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir ROBERT BEST:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA asked the Assistant Minister, representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many men have died at Broadmeadows Camp, and what was, in each case, the cause of death? 1. How many men are off duty to-day because of sickness? 2. What provision has been made as to hospital tents, if any; have they been properly equipped, and is there an adequate medical and trained nursing staff in attendance? 3. Has the Minster read the article in the *Argus* of 26th April, 1915, by its special reporter, headed " Health of Troops : Pneumonia *ia* Egypt," dated from Cairo, 22nd March, and will he make exhaustive inquiries as to the statements therein, and report the result to the House ? {: #subdebate-20-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Six - three the results of accidents, one heart failure, one heart failure and measles, one broncho-pneumonia. 1. The figures for yesterday, 29th April, were as follow : - 75 convalescent men who are on country leave; 64 men in camp hospitals or in other hospitals in and around Melbourne; 32 men in the Measles Hospital. There were, approximately, about 10,000 troops in camp. 2. There are seven hospital tents, and each will hold about ten men. These tents have been properly equipped, and there is adequate medical attendance. There are no trained nurses (female), but there are trained men acting as nurses. Six hospital huts have now just been completed, two of which are for isolation purposes. These huts will take the place of the hospital tents. Any serious case of illness is sent to the Base Hospital in St. Kilda-road, where trained female nurses are employed. {: .page-start } page 2821 {:#debate-21} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-21-0} #### CRIMINAL PROSECUTION OP UNIONISTS {: #subdebate-21-0-s0 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA asked the AttorneyGeneral, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was he correctly reported in the *Argus* of 26th April, wherein he is reported as having stated that - " It was not so very long ago, historically speaking, since it was a crime to be a unionist. There were unionists transported to Australia - respectable men - who had not committed any offence, but because » they had chosen to become members of a union " ? 1. If correctly reported, will he inform the House when and where any person has been transported because he had chosen to become a member of a union? {: #subdebate-21-0-s1 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The replies to the honorable member's questions are - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The quotation is substantially correct, so far as it goes. 1. The English Court records covering the last quarter of the 18th century and the first quarter of the 19th century disclose thousands of cases of persons who were fined, imprisoned, and, in many cases, transported, because they had exercised what they conceived to be their rights as free men to combine with their fellow-workmen in order to obtain decent wages and conditions. I refer the honorable member to one typical case cited by the honorable member for Barrier, who is reported in *Hansard,* Vol. LXX., page 752, as follows: - I have here a pamphlet which gives an account of the arrest and trial of six men simply because they proposed to form a trade union to improve the lot of their fellow-workers. They wore agricultural labourers, and were anxious to obtain a living wage for those employed on the farms of England. They had been receiving 7s. per week, and when they were told that this rate was to be reduced to 6s. per week, they formed an association with the object of securing a wage of 10s. per week. In opposition to their scheme, placards were distributed throughout the agricultural areas of England setting forth that any one who joined the union would be sentenced to seven years' transportation. In the words of this pamphlet - "This was no idle threat; within three days of the publication of the notice George Loveless and five other labourers were arrested and lodged in Dorchester gaol." George Loveless was not only a Labourite, but a Methodist local preacher - a fact that should appeal to the Prime Minister - " The five other labourers were James Loveless, brother to George, also a Wesleyan local preacher ; James Hammitt their brother-in-law ; Thomas Standfield, another Wesleyan local preacher ;' John Standfield, his son; and James Brine." These men had to stand their trial because they had formed a union with the idea of raising the wages of agricultural labourers to 10s. per week. {: .speaker-KXU} ##### Mr Patten: -- When was this? {: #subdebate-21-0-s2 .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr THOMAS:
BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES -- In 1831. The honorable member's interjection reminds me that one of his party recently referred us to something that happened in China 900 years ago. {: #subdebate-21-0-s3 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! The honorable member is, I think, going beyond the proper limits of a reply to a question. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES: -- I desire to shortly complete my quotation - >When these men were asked whether they had any defence, George Loveless replied - " My lord, if we have violated any law, it was not done intentionally. We have injured no man's reputation, character, person, or property. We were uniting together to preserve ourselves, our wives, and our children from utter degradation and starvation. We challenge any man or number of men to prove that we have acted or intended to act different from the above statement." > >Two days after this these men were again placed at the bar to receive sentence, and were told by the Judge - "That not for anything that we had done, or, as he could prove, we intended to do, but for an example to others he considered it his duty to pass the sentence of seven years' penal transportation across His Majesty's high seas upon each and every one of us. > >They were transported. {: .page-start } page 2822 {:#debate-22} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-22-0} #### EXPEDITIONARY FORCES Families of Imperial Reservists : Returned Soldiers and Preference to Unionists {: #subdebate-22-0-s0 .speaker-JTC} ##### Mr BURCHELL: asked the Assistant Minister representing the Minister of Defence, *upon notice -* >Whether the wives and children of Imperial Reservists who were resident in Australia, and who have gone to the front, are to receive the increased allowances as proposed for the dependants of the Australian Forces? {: #subdebate-22-0-s1 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
ALP -- Yes. The Government will make up the difference, if any, between Australian rates of pay and allowances and Imperial rates, including separation allowances. {: #subdebate-22-0-s2 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: asked the. Prime Minister, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it the policy of the Government to re fuse the application for employment of any returned Australian soldier after the war unless the applicant becomes a member of some union ? 1. What will be the position of any clerk or other person who has left the employment of the Government to enlist, and who has never been a member of any union. Will he be refused employment upon his return unless he joins a union? {: #subdebate-22-0-s3 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
ALP -- The answer to the honorable member's questions is as follows: - 1 and 2. While the policy of the Government is preference to unionists, the Government will not be unmindful of its obligations to those who have gone to the front on active service. {: .page-start } page 2822 {:#debate-23} ### PAPERS The following papers were presented : - >Defence - Synopsis of a Report upon the Business Branches of the Department of Defence, by Robert M. Anderson, 5th April, 1915. River Murray Waters Agreement - Memorandum of **Mr. Elwood** Mead. Ordered to be printed. General Election - Statement showing the result of the checking of the Certified Lists and Rolls used in connexion with the Elections held on 5th September, 1914. {: .page-start } page 2822 {:#debate-24} ### PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE {:#subdebate-24-0} #### Small Arms Factory, Lithgow {: #subdebate-24-0-s0 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- I move - >That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-14, the following work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, with a request that the reference may be dealt with as an urgent matter: - > >Small Arms Factory, Lithgow - Extension of buildings, plant, &c. I desire to merely move the motion today in order that I may have the opportunity to lay the plans on the table. I would prefer to deal with the matter on Wednesday next. I therefore ask leave to continue my remarks next week. Leave granted ; debate adjourned. {: .page-start } page 2822 {:#debate-25} ### JUDICIARY BILL (No. 2) {:#subdebate-25-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-25-0-s0 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - >That this Bill be now read a second time. This Bill is to amend the Judiciary Act in order to give the High Court original jurisdiction in matters arising out of offences against the laws of the Commonwealth, and to enable the Court to deal with such offences directly without any preliminary commitment. Under section 75 of the Constitution the High Court has original jurisdiction in all matters - {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Arising under any treaty; 1. Affecting consuls or other representatives of other countries; 2. In which the Commonwealth, or a person suing, or being sued, on behalf of the Commonwealth, is a party; 3. Between States, or between residents of different States, or between a State and a resident of another State; 4. In which a writ of mandamus or prohibition, or an injunction is sought against an officer of the Commonwealth. And under section 76 - >The Parliament may make laws conferring original jurisdiction on the High Court in any matter - > >Arising under this Constitution or involving its interpretation; > >Arising under any laws made by the Parliament; > >Of Admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; or > >Relating to the same subject-matter claimed under the laws of different States. By section 3 of the original Judiciary Act 1903, the Parliament conferred on the High Court original jurisdiction in matters arising under the Constitution or involving its interpretation; and by the amending Judiciary Act passed last year, in all matters of Admiralty and maritime jurisdiction. The present measure gives the Court original jurisdiction in trials of indictable offences against the laws of the Commonwealth. There is a broad, general reason for the passage of this measure. It is, first of all, an eminently desirable thing that the Federal Court should have jurisdiction to deal with offences against Federal laws; and, secondly, it is very desirable that the power possessed by the Attorneys-General of most of the States to submit cases direct to the Court without any preliminary commitment, should be vested in the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth also. In South Australia that power is conferred by the Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1876, section 334; in Western Australia by the Criminal Code 1913, No. 28, section 579; in Queensland by the Criminal Code 1899, section 561; in Tasmania by 19 Victoria, No. 9, section 4 ; and in Victoria by the Crimes Act 1890, section 386. By those Statutes the Attorneys-General of those States are enabled to do what it is proposed to empower the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth to do under clause 3 of this Bill. By clause 4, section 72 of the principal Act is to be amended in such a way as to prevent a conflict of jurisdiction and prolongation of procedure. As the section stands at present it would be possible for a person tried in the High Court to require that Court to reserve a question of law for the Full Court of the State or the Full Court of the High Court. This clause amends the law so that it will be possible to reserve such a point for the Full Court of the High Court only. It is proposed to amend clause 4 by striking out of the last line the words " the Supreme," and inserting in lieu the word "a," so that the last line in the Bill will read " if the trial was had in a Court of a State." The-reason for the alteration is that in some States indictable offences can be tried in other State Courts than the Supreme Court, for example, in a Court of Quarter Sessions. I do not wish to labour this matter. The measure that stands next on the notice-paper must be regarded as complementary to, and consequential upon, this Bill, and I ask my learned friends to look at the Bill in that light, so that we shall not be traversing the same ground twice. As this is a measure which does not appeal to members generally, but only to' those learned in the law, and deals with matters quite" familiar to the learned members for Angas and Darling Downs, I will confine myself to the reasons I have advanced in support of the Bill, and without further remark move the second reading. {: #subdebate-25-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- I propose to offer no objection to the passage of this and another related Bill, but what is running in my mind is this: I understand that the Attorney-General desires to have these proposals carried into effect because of something connected with the war - that they are in reality war precautionary measures. If that be so, why not limit the whole of this jurisdiction to the duration of the war ? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- But this measure ought in any case to be passed; original jurisdiction ought to be given to the High Court in this regard. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I understand that there is much difference of opinion as to that, even amongst legal authorities. The outstanding fact remains that it is proposed to set aside some of the ordinary privileges which have hitherto been exercised by persons indicted. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- What we are proposing to do is to remit these matters to the High Court instead of to the State Courts. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I know; but would it not be wise to arrange that this legislation may be reviewed at the end of the war, retaining such portions as may prove themselves to be advantageous, and omitting others? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- If the honorable gentleman will look at section 76 of the Constitution he will see what this Parliament is empowered to do, and this Bill represents one of the powers. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I looked at the section this morning, but it does not follow that because the power is given ve should, therefore, pass Statutes for any purpose that may not be immediately and also ultimately desirable. The Bill is, of course, a grant of power; and I anr. not disputing the right of the AttorneyGeneral to introduce the legislation, but merely discussing its expediency and wisdom. While I have nothing to say a.3 to any measures the Government mav deem it right to pass in order to equip themselves with reserves of powerin connexion with matters arising out of the war, I think it would be wiser, on the whole, to insert a clause providing for the reconsideration of all such measures when the war is over. If that were done we might very well pass all the proposals, on the statement of the Attorney-General that they are necessary to the Government during the war. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- While I certainly do not see any reason for any fear as to the use of this measure at any time, still, if the honorable gentleman's legal advisers say that there is any danger, I shall do as he suggests. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- There may not be any danger, but I remind the honorable member that while these powers have been given to the States, I understand that they are rarely exercised - that they are exercised only in exceptional cases. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- And why should it be otherwise with the Commonwealth ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Exactly; but is it not evident that such measures are a severe limitation of the rights of litigants, a limitation which ought to be resorted to only in exceptional circumstances. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- The Bill will not at all affect litigants, having solely to do with offences. It will not affect the rights of parties in civil cases. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is only my lack of legal knowledge that causes me to use the word "litigants"; I mean, of course, the whole of the people interested. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- Trial by jury is insured by the Constitution, and every man concerned must have it. An accused person under the Bill will have the best Judges in Australia, men whom we trust and put in high places. How, or by what right, could a defendant object? Mir. JOSEPH COOK.- All I know is that we are discovering in some of the Bills that have been passed provisions that are not without danger; and the proper course is to limit their operation to the period of the war. That has been done in other cases, and why not in this ? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- This Bill is in a category altogether different from that of the War Precautions Bill; this is an ordinary amendment of the civil law. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I know it is. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- However, in order to shorten the discussion, I shall insert a clause, as the honorable member desires, limiting the operation of the Bill to the duration of the war, and for six months thereafter. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- That means that the Attorney-General will propose to insert a clause similar to that inserted in the other Bill? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- Yes; and that will give Parliament an opportunity, if desired, to review the matter. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- On that understanding, I shall say no more concerning the measure. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee:* Clause 1 (Short title and citation). Amendment (by **Mr. Hughes)** proposed - >That the following words be added to the clause : - " (4) This Act shall remain in operation during the present war and for six months thereafter, and no longer." {: #subdebate-25-0-s2 .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr GLYNN:
Angas .- I suggest that the Attorney-General may possibly have to consider some measure of the sort, even after the war; and it would be just as well to look closely into what has been done in the Old Country during the last ten or fifteen years.For instance, I understand that, in the legislation at Home, there are special provisions in regard to examinations by the Crown Prosecutor, and that, to some extent, is similar ground to that covered by the Bill. {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- Very well. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 2 agreed to. Clause 3 (Trial of indictable offence without preliminary examination). {: #subdebate-25-0-s3 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- Is the power to be exercised by the Attorney-General only, or may it be exercised by those persons whom he has authorized to act on his behalf under section 69 of the Judiciary Act, which provides - >Indictable offences against the laws of the Commonwealth shall be prosecuted by indictment in the name of the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth, or of such other person as the Governor-General appoints in that behalf. I understand that the Crown Law officers are already authorized to act on behalf of the Attorney-General in ordinary criminal jurisdiction, and I desire to know whether those officers will, under the Bill, have power to prosecute, or whether that power will be confined to the AttorneyGeneral ? {: #subdebate-25-0-s4 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney · ALP -- The power under this clause will be exercisable only by the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth. It is not proposed to delegate it. Clause agreed to. Clause 4 - >Section 72 of the principal Act is amended by inserting in sub-section (1), after the words "High Court or," the words "if the trial was had in the Supreme Court of a State." > > *Sub-section proposed to be amended -* > > *When any person is indicted for an indictable offence against the laws of the Commonwealth, the Court before which he is tried shall, on the application by or on behalf of the accused person made before verdict, and may in its discretion, either before or after judgment without such application, reserve any question of law which arises on the trial for the consideration of a Full Court of the High Court, or ofa* Full Court *of the Supreme Court of the State.* Amendment (by **Mr. Hughes)** proposed - >That the words " the Supreme " be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " *a."* {: #subdebate-25-0-s5 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs . -I understand that this clause is intended to give the right of appeal only on questions of law. Has the AttorneyGeneral noticed that in some of the States the Criminal Appeal Courts have been given a much wider jurisdiction ? Has the Attorney-General considered the matter ? {: .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr Hughes: -- I have not. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with amendments. Standing Orders suspended. Report adopted, and Bill read a third *time.* {: .page-start } page 2825 {:#debate-26} ### HIGH COURT PROCEDURE BILL {:#subdebate-26-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-26-0-s0 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move - >That this Bill be now read a second time. As I have already explained to the House, this Bill is complementary to the amending Judiciary Bill just dealt with, providing the necessary machinery for giving effect to the latter. Without this Procedure Bill it would be impossible for cases to be tried in the High Court, there being no machinery in regard to the qualification of jurors, the preparation of the jury panel, and so on. Hitherto the High Court has had no jurisdiction to try indictable offences; and, of course, there is no provision in the High Court Procedure Act for such trials. In regard to civil cases, section 12 of the Act provides - >In every suit in the High Court, unless the Court or a Justice otherwise orders, the trial shall be by a Justice without a jury. But section 18 of the Constitution requires that indictable offences shall be tried before a jury; and, therefore, this Bill is necessary to give effect to the Judiciary Bill, and to the guarantee in the Constitution that in the case of indictable offences there shall be a jury. I propose, of course, to insert a provision similar to that just inserted in the Judiciary Bill, limiting the duration of the measure. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee:* Clause 1 - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. This Act may be cited as the Defence Act 1915..... Amendment (by **Mr. Hughes)** agreed to- >That the following new sub-clause be added : - " (3) This Act shall remain in operation during the present war, and for six months thereafter, and no longer." Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 2 agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with an amendment. Standing Orders suspended. Report adopted, and Bill read a third time. {: .page-start } page 2825 {:#debate-27} ### DEFENCE BILL (No. 2) {:#subdebate-27-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-27-0-s0 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
Assistant Min ister · Bass · ALP -- I move - >That this Bill be now read a second time. The principal object of this Bill is to give statutory authority to certain Acts of the Government of the Commonwealth since the commencement of the war. It contains no important principles. Its object is really to fill up gaps that have been discovered, the most important of these being the fixing of the application of the Army Act. Under section 55 of the principal Act, when Defence Forces of the Commonwealth are called out for active service the Army Act applies, but the application of that Act is somewhat vague. It is desired to make it more definite and to put it beyond doubt' that it applies both within and without the limits of the Commonwealth. An amendment of the existing law in that respect is therefore embodied in this Bill. At the beginning of this session, we passed an Amending Defence Bill, which was designed to legalize the raising of Expeditionary Forces. At the outbreak of the war the then Government took the necessary action to raise those Forces, but there was really no complete authority in the Defence Act for that action, and an Amending Bill was therefore introduced to legalize it. Unfortunately that Bill, which was introduced at the beginning of the session, was not dated back to the commencement of the war, and therefore it became operative only as from the date on which it was assented to, which was subsequent to the raising of the Expeditionary Force despatched to New Guinea. It is desirable that we should bring these actions of our predecessors within the scope of the law, and this Bill will have that effect. Then again, under the law as it stands, no power is given to surveyors in the Department to enter upon private property to carry out certain necessary surveys. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Does the Minister refer to surveys for acquisition purposes? {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- Not altogether. It is sometimes necessary for our surveyors to enter upon private property in the neighbourhood of defended ports in order to put in certain pegs that will enable our Forces to know exactly the radius within which they have to operate. Some trouble has arisen with regard to this matter, and in certain cases pegs so put in have been disturbed. We now desire that the Defence Department shall have statutory authority for such action. Since the commencement of the war the Department has found it necessary, as an act of justice, to adopt a certain course, although it was doubtful whether we had the legal right to do so. For instance, as I mentioned in this House a few days ago, certain men enlisted for active service under assumed names, and stated they were unmarried. After their departure for the front, however, it was discovered that they were married, and the Department has assumed the responsibility of paying for the maintenance of their wives and children a portion of the money due to them. It is contended that under the law as it stands, these men, if they returned to-morrow, could claim a refund of the money so paid unless the authority for which we ask in this Bill be given to us. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- Did they not make sworn declarations'? {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- They made declarations, but on ascertaining the true facts, the Department allotted to their wives and children, whom they left behind, a proportion of their pay. We seek under this Bill authority for the action thus taken. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Is the Bill made retrospective in this respect? {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- Yes; the clause dealing with the matter dates back to 1st August. That was some three days before the declaration of war, but even then the late Government doubtless had a good idea that war would be declared, because of circumstances: of which they knew. I do not think any one will object to the action we have taken in regard to these women and children. I regret to say that a good many cases of the kind have been discovered. Another matter with which this Bill deals, relates to fines inflicted on employers for dismissing employes because of their attendance at drills as required by law. Under the law as it stands, if it be proved that a member of the Citizen Forces is dismissed from his employment because of attending drill or a camp of instruction that he is commanded' to attend, then the employer may be fined, and the fine so inflicted is paid into the consolidated revenue. The Government consider that where it is proved - and it has been proved in many cases - that a citizen soldier has been thrown out of work owing to the action of his employer in dismissing him because of the service thus rendered by him to his country, the fine imposed by the Court should be paid to the soldier who has suffered. The clause dealing with this matter provides that - >The Court may direct that the whole or any part of any penalty recovered from an employer for penalizing or prejudicing in his employment or attempting to penalize or prejudice in his employment any employe for rendering or being liable to render the personal service required of him or for attending a camp of instruction as aforesaid may be paid to the employe. Many men have been thrown out of employment by unscrupulous employers who have objected to their attending drill as required by law. {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -- The danger is in giving this power to the Court. The Court could not know what might occur within a fortnight. The power should be vested in the Minister, who would be in a better position 'to know all the facts. Under this clause the Government are proposing to pay a man compensation before any loss is proved. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- Where it can be shown to the Court that a citizen soldier has suffered - that he has been thrown out of work - because of the action of his employer in dismissing him for attending drill, then the Government think he should receive the fine imposed. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- .Should it not be regarded as compensation for actually proved loss? If a man is injured he should receive compensation, but here power is given the Court to grant compensation by way of penalizing the offender. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN: -- The matter will be within the discretion of the Court, which may direct that the whole or any part of the penalty shall be paid to the person injured. I do not think that there can be any opposition to .this Bill. We indorse the action of our predecessors, and commend them for it. We should have done just what they did had we been in power, and we feel sure that they would have similarly honoured our obligations. {: #subdebate-27-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- There is no opposition to the Bill, which is largely a validating measure. It validates among other acts some done by myself. It adds another technical arm to the Defence Force, and makes further detailed provisions which, T think, on the whole are wise. In war time authorities cannot stop to consider whether a necessary action is legal; it must be done at once. That was what we felt when war broke out. During the six weeks that we were in office, we did many things that were not strictly *ia* accordance with the law, nor consonant with the expression of fine sentiment of which we have heard so much lately When war breaks out there is no timeto theorize. The duty of the authorities is to make the country safe, so far as they are able to do so, leaving all political and social obligations to be dealt with afterwards. It-is an old maxim that the safety of the State is the highest law. The Bill validates any informalities and illegalities that may have occurred during the trying period to which I refer. As to the compensation of employes who are unjustly dismissed from their employment for attending drill, I am inclined to think that the matter is best left to a Court. It is better that a magistrate should determine what compensation shall be paid than that a Minister, Labour or Liberal, whose decisions in many cases would be looked upon by the public as influenced by political or personal considerations,should have the matter left in his hands. Employers who prevent their assistants from undergoing training should be severely punished, but the Court must act at its discretion, according to the circumstances. There are cases in which the employer is not wholly to blame. {: #subdebate-27-0-s2 .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr GLYNN:
Angas .- The provision in clause 7, that the Court may direct that the whole or any Dart of any penalty recovered from an employer for penalizing an employe for attending training is related to a provision that is already law, which enables the Court to impose penalties for this offence. I would point out, however, that an employe may not be injured in any way by an attempt to penalize him or prejudice him in his employment. Yet, notwithstanding, the Court is empowered to direct that the whole or any part of the penalty recovered from his employer may be paid to him.. I think that the clause should be drafted to meet the case in which it is proved that the employe has been penalized or injured, so that the magistrate may then assess reasonable compensation, and direct that it shall be paid out of the penalty recovered from the employer. To my mind, as the clause is drafted, a wider power is given than is intended to be given. Section 55 of the principal Act is to be amended by making it apply to troops on active service, whether within or without the limits of the Commonwealth. If I am not mistaken, the Imperial Army Act of 1881 applies to our troops when they are outside the limits of the Commonwealth only if there is a provision in our local legislation to permit it to do so, or if those troops are serving with Imperial troops. The amendment to which I refer is intended to give the Army Act application, whether our troops serving abroad are with the Imperial troops or not, and whether they are within or without the Commonwealth. It is an amendment that is clearly necessary. {: #subdebate-27-0-s3 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- I understand that Imperial reservists domiciled in Australia are being paid by the Department the difference between the Imperial rates of pay and the Australian rates of pay, but, unfortunately, this practice is not being adopted with regard to Imperial reserve officers. This seems to me exceedingly unjust. The reason that the men receive the same rates of pay as the men of the Australian Forces is that they have become citizens of Australia, and have entered into our national life, so far as their Imperial obligations will permit, and that consequently they ought to be treated as Australians are treated. The same reasoning will apply to Imperial reserve officers. I know of a case of a second lieutenant who has taken up land in Australia, and has ;ncurred obligations in connexion with it, but who, now that he has been called away to the front, is being paid only the Imperial rate of pay, although the rank and file of the Imperial reservists receive the Australian rate of pay. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- I shall bring the matter under the notice of the Minister. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- There cannot be many of these cases, but if there were only one, the injustice should be removed. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- What condition is imposed in connexion with Imperial reservists - that they must have resided twelve months in Australia? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- I should think all that should be required would be that they are domiciled or settled in Australia. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- What is meant by domiciled? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- A man who showed an intention to make his home permanently in Australia would be regarded as domiciled here. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. *In Committee:* Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to. Clause 4 (Amendment of section 55). {: #subdebate-27-0-s4 .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr WEST:
East Sydney .- I have no objection to the Bill, but I draw attention to the fact that it involves retrospective legislation. I cannot see how that can be avoided in this case, however repugnant it may be to our sense of rightin ordinary circumstances. Parliament must always be careful how it sanctions legislation of this kind. In this instance we are compelled to pass such legislation Clause agreed to. Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to. Clause 7 (Penalizing employe for rendering service). {: #subdebate-27-0-s5 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- I understand that the Minister of Defence has power to take action in the case of men who have gone from the country under an assumed name, leaving the Department in ignorance of the fact that they had wives or wives and families dependent on them, and without making provision through the Department for the maintenance of their dependants. This clause, however, deals with the question of an employer who may subject an employe to certain disabilities by discharging him from employment. This employer can be brought before a Court and penalized, and portion or all of the penalty inflicted may be diverted to the employe who has suffered the injury. I am concerned as to the constitution of the Courts. I may be a little prejudiced in the matter, but it may happen that all the ordinary justices on the bench may be employers, though I do not go so far as to say that this fact would interfere with the dispensation of evenhanded justice. So long as I have the assurance that these cases will be brought before stipendiary magistrates, or before Courts where stipendiary magistrates will be on the bench, I have no objection to the clause. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- As a rule, these cases are dealt with before stipendiary magistrates. {: #subdebate-27-0-s6 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs -- According to the Judiciary Act the Federal jurisdiction of a Court of Summary Jurisdiction of a State shall not be judicially exercised except by a stipendiary, or police, or special magistrate, or some magistrate of the State who is specially authorized by the GovernorGeneral to exercise such jurisdiction. That covers the point raised by the honorable member. We certainly agree that if an employer has caused loss to an employe the latter should be compensated, but the Minister should take note of the plea submitted by the honorable member for Angas that where there is no proof of loss to the employe nothing should be awarded to the latter. At present the penalty goes to the Consolidated Revenue. It is now proposed to divert whole or part of it to the employes suffering injury, but that should only take place when the employe has proved that he has sustained injury. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- The Court will make no award unless that fact is proved. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- The danger in the provision is that the matter is left to the discretion of the Court. The magistrate is not compelled to give portion or all of the penalty recovered from the employer to the em ployé on the ground only that the latter has sustained actual financial loss. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- The Minister of Defence is satisfied with the clause as it stands. {: #subdebate-27-0-s7 .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr GLYNN:
Angas .- The provision not only contemplates payment to the employe for the actual injury done, but also does so in any case of attempt to penalize or prejudice the employe' in his employment. Loss is often suffered, but cannot be proved. 1 have no desire to move any amendment. The Parliamentary Draftsman, who can consider the matter more carefully, should do so; but, perhaps, the fact of this discussion having taken place will show the desirableness of not misapplying the provision and giving compensation where legal proof of suffering loss has not been sustained. Clause agreed to. {: #subdebate-27-0-s8 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
Assistant Minister · Bass · ALP -- Under the principal Act trainees who pass certain examinations can be promoted to a second lieutenancy, but if later they wish to pass to the rank of lieutenant they are compelled to pass a further examination. The Department having ascertained that this provision has caused a great deal of trouble, desire to amend section 62 by omitting the word "second," thus permitting trainees who have passed the necessary examination to be promoted to the rank of lieutenant without any further examination. I move - That the following new clause be inserted : - " 4a. Section 62 of the principal Act is amended by omitting from sub-section (7) thereof the word ' second.' " *Sub-section proposed to be amended -* {: type="1" start="62"} 0. -- (7) *A person who has served as officer in the Senior Cadets shall be eligible . . . to be appointed second lieutenant in the Citizen Forces. . . .* Proposed new clause agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with an amendment. Standing Orders suspended. Report adopted, and Bill read a third time. {: .page-start } page 2829 {:#debate-28} ### PATENTS, TRADE MARKS, AND DESIGNS BILL (No. 3) {:#subdebate-28-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-28-0-s0 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- I move formally - That this Bill be now reada second time. I do this now with the object of bringing the measure under the attention of honorable members, but I desire to defer my explanation of its provisions. I ask leave to continue my remarks at another sitting. Leave granted; debate adjourned. *Sitting suspended from 12.27 to 2.30 p.m.* {: .page-start } page 2829 {:#debate-29} ### WAR PRECAUTIONS BILL (No. 2) Bill returned from the Senate with a message stating that the Senate had agreed to the amendments made by the House of Representatives. {: .page-start } page 2829 {:#debate-30} ### DEFENCE BILL (No. 2) Bill returned from the Senate with a message stating that the Senate had agreed to the amendment made by the House of Representatives. *Sitting suspended from 2.34 to4.30 p.m.* {: .page-start } page 2829 {:#debate-31} ### JUDICIARY BILL (No. 2) Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 2829 {:#debate-32} ### HIGH COURT PROCEDURE BILL Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 2830 {:#debate-33} ### SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1913-14 **Mr. SPEAKER** reported the receipt of messages from His Excellency the GovernorGeneral transmitting Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for the year ended 30th June, 1914, and Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for additions, new works, and buildings, &c, for the year ended 30th June, 1914, and recommending appropriation accordingly. {:#subdebate-33-0} #### Referred to Committee of Supply {: .page-start } page 2830 {:#debate-34} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-34-0} #### Premiers' Conference - Order of Business - Wah News {: #subdebate-34-0-s0 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- I move - >That the' House do now adjourn; Recently I received an invitation from the Premier of New South Wales to attend the Conference of Premiers which is to be held in Sydney on the 5th May, and to-day I received a copy of the agenda-paper of the Conference. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Has it been made public ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- So far as I know, it has not. As three-fourths of the questions to be considered are of Federal interest, I think it my duty to attend the Conference, and the House will therefore know the reason of my absence next Wednesday. Should the attendance of other Ministers be required, we shall have to make our arrangements accordingly. {: #subdebate-34-0-s1 .speaker-DQC} ##### Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP -- A Bill relating to contracts will be introduced on Wednesday, pursuant to the order of leave already granted, and will be dealt with on Thursday. I have supplied copies to several members of the Opposition for their private perusal, so that they may familiarize themselves with our proposals in the interval. A Bill to amend the Patents law will also be considered on Wednesday, and we shall proceed further with the Estimates. {: #subdebate-34-0-s2 .speaker-JWY} ##### Mr CHANTER:
Riverina .- I ask the Prime Minister to inform the House whether he has any fresh news from the front. He is, of course, aware that the parents, relatives, and friends of the men of our Expeditionary Forces are naturally anxious to obtain any information about them that may have come to hand. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will the Prime Minister announce to the House what he has already told me privately regarding the sending of news to honorable members? {: #subdebate-34-0-s3 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- As in the near future our Forces will be almost continuously engaged with the enemy, I think that the information concerning them which comes through the Defence Department should be posted as early as possible in some prominent, place in this building. The latest information should be posted here, and so made available to honorable members. Constituents who have relatives at the front often ring me up here, and at my own home, to ascertain if there is news of them. It would alleviate their fears to know that their friends had not met with disaster in battle, and even to know the worst would be better than to remain in suspense. At present, honorable members are the last to be supplied with information, and to learn the latest details have to go down town to read the news posted in front of the newspaper offices. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- As there is a large agenda-paper to be discussed at the Premiers' Conference, would it not be convenient for the House to adjourn for a week or so? {: #subdebate-34-0-s4 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- What I told the honorable member for Richmond and some other honorable members is that I shall ask the Minister of Defence to wire briefly to honorable members who may be absent from Melbourne when any news may come to hand, and to inform those who are here, so that they may be able to answer inquiries. The suggestion of the honorable member for Maribyrnong that news of a special character should be posted in this building' is a good one. It frequently happens, however, that the press cablegrams anticipate the official communication. Anything that is news should be posted for the convenience of honorable members. I do not think that it is necessary to adjourn over next week, as the House has the Estimates to finish, and the Tariff is awaiting consideration. There is no news to give in regard to the Expeditionary Forces. Question, resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 4.38 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 30 April 1915, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1915/19150430_reps_6_76/>.