House of Representatives
1 August 1912

4th Parliament · 3rd Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 1561

QUESTION

LIMITATION OF SPEECHES

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, a question without notice. I wish to know if, when the time allotted under the new standing order to the member addressing the House has expired, and by leave he is granted an extension, is that extension without limit, and,, if so, would it be competent to move a motion, without discussion, fixing the period of the extension ?

Mr SPEAKER:

– It is not usual to put questions to the Speaker, but my reply to the honorable member is that, when an extension of time is granted under the circumstances to which he refers, there is no limit to the extension, and there is no standing order providing for the moving of a motion to fix a limit.

page 1561

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– I wish to know, from the Minister of Home Affairs, if he can now lay on the table of the House the papers connected with the calling of tenders for sleepers for the transcontinental railway?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– We are having a process investigated’ in regard to these sleepers before finally settling matters. As soon as a decision has been arrived at, we shall lay the papers upon the table.

page 1561

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish, by way of per sonal explanation, to correct the Argus report of the speech which I delivered yesterday. As it appears in that newspaper, it conveys a reflection upon members of the Opposition which I do not desire to remain. The report of my speech in the Argus reads -

When he came into Parliament he did not think that he would find so many people of the criminal classes on the opposite side. (Laughter.)

The Speaker:

– The hon. member must withdraw.

Mr. West withdrew. He had not meant that the members opposite were criminals. (Laughter.) But they always desired to lighten the penalties provided.

This is the Hansard report of what I said -

Mr WEST:

– I never thought when elected to this House that I would see so many friends of the criminal class sitting on the opposite side of the House.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must withdraw that remark.

Mr WEST:

– I withdraw it. I did not mean to suggest that honorable members opposite were criminals, but on every Bill that has been brought forward, including the Land Tax Bill, in the last session or two, they have displayed a great desire to lessen the punishment imposed for offences. I do not know why, because the evil-doer ought to be punished. lt will” be seen that the two reports are not quite the same.- I did not speak of the members of the Opposition as belonging to the criminal classes, but as friends of the criminal classes. I have another explanation to make. When the second reading of the Royal Commissions Bill was under discussion, I made an interjection to the effect that the newspaper reports of the police proceedings in the Sugar Commission case were being paid for as advertisements. I received that information from a gentleman connected with the press. Having taken the Sydney Morning Herald since 1876, without missing a day, I made the remark to this gentleman, on meeting him in Kingstreet, that I could not understand the publication in the Sydney Morning Herald of the whole of the Police Court proceedings in this case, and he told me that arrangements had been made for the publication, to be paid for as an advertisement. I have since received a letter from Messrs. John Fairfax and Sons, the proprietors of the Sydney Morning Herald, saying that they have received no payment at all for the -reports ; and, in justice to those gentlemen, whose word, from my knowledge of the family, I know to be true, I withdraw what I said, and apologize for having given them cause for offence.

page 1562

QUESTION

ELECTION OF SENATOR

Mr JENSEN:
BASS, TASMANIA

– In view of the fact that the late Senator W. Russell was elected by the people of South Australia in the Labour interest, can the Attorney-General inform the House whether the selection made yesterday by the South Australian Parliament- Mr. J. W. Shannon being chosen to represent the. State at a salary of £600 a year - was a partisan one?

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I understand that the election was as prescribed by the Constitution, but that it was carried out on party lines.

page 1562

QUESTION

APPOINTMENT OF MR. CHINN

Mr CHARLTON:

– Although the Minister stated recently that he attached no value to testimonials, will he place on the table all the testimonials supporting Mr. Chinn’s appointment, and have them printed ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– Yes. I now do so.

Papers laid upon the table, and ordered to be printed.

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I wish to know from, the Minister whether the additional papers- he has now produced were in his possession when the official file was laid on thetable. If so, why did not the papers nowpresented appear on that file?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I saw air those papers, but as we depend on ability in a man himself, and not on what someone else says about him, I did not bother with them. Seeing now that this Housewants to know something about what others think about Mr. Chinn’s character, I have laid the testimonials on the table.

page 1562

QUESTION

ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: QUEENSLAND

Motion (by Mr. King 0’Malusy) byleave proposed -

That the original plans presented to the Housein connexion with the reports of the Commissioners appointed for the purpose of distributing the State of Queensland into Electoral Divisionsbe returned to the Department of Home Affairs.

Mr SPEAKER:

– This is an urgent matter. The Department of Home Affairs made application to the officers of the House for the return of the documents referred to in the motion, but as they are in the possession of the House, it was thought best to ask the Minister to move for an order for their return.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 1562

QUESTION

DAY LABOUR

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

– I wish to know from “ the Minister of Home Affairs if his attention has been drawn to an article in the Argus commenting severely upon the day, labour methods adopted in the ‘ under-, grounding of the telephone wires? If so, does he intend to have a report prepared”’ for submission to this House showing whether the statements relating to this system of day labour are or are not true?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– We are going to have a statement prepared, because that which appears in the Argus is absolutely false, and has been manufactured on Chinese evidence.

Mr THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister make inquiry to ascertain whether the day labour systemis satisfactory in regard to the underground ing of telephone wires at Queenscliff. Will he ascertain whether the Department is getting value for its money at the rates paid for the work which is done ? There is no Chinese evidence in this case. I have myself seen what is taking place.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I shall look into the matter.

page 1563

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN GARRISON ARTILLERY

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– It is reported that close on 450 men have resigned from the Australian Garrison Artillery in Sydney. Can the Minister representing the Minister of Defence say whether this is so?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I have no information on the subject.

page 1563

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Automatic Switchboard System - Wireless Station, Fremantle

Mr WEBSTER:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. Whether the installation of automatic exchange at Geelong is completed?
  2. If so, is it satisfactory?
  3. Does the Minister propose to adopt the system for general telephonic purposes?
Mr THOMAS:
Minister for External Affairs · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– In the absence of the Postmaster-General, I desire to say that the answers to the honorable member’s questions are : -

  1. Yes. The automatic switchboard at Geelong was brought into use at11 p.m. on Saturday, 6th July, 1912.
  2. So far the board has given satisfaction, but it is too early yet to give a definite opinion in the matter, and this cannot be expressed until further experience has been gained.
  3. It is proposed that when new switchboards are required in telephone systems with over, say, 500 lines connected, the suitableness of automatic or semi-automatic systems shall be given consideration. The experience gained at Geelong, while it will assist the Department, will not necessarily determinethe decision in other networks, each of which must be considered on its merits.
Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

  1. When is it expected that the wireless station near Fremantle will be opened?
  2. Whether he will use his utmost endeavours to have it opened, as the delay is apparently causing great disappointment and inconvenience?
Mr THOMAS:

– In the absence of the Postmaster-General, I have to state that the answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The contractors have informed the Department that as soon as the PennantHills station has been accepted by the Postmaster-General their engineer will proceed to Fremantle to make tests, and, provided he is satisfied with the working of the station, will submit it to the Minister for acceptance.
  2. This has been done.

page 1563

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Sir JOHN FORREST:

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. When will the work of construction of the Trans-Australian Railway be commenced at each end?
  2. How many men will be employed at each end?
  3. When is it expected that the first rails will be laid?
Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The work of laying the depot will be proceeded with without delay.
  2. Eventually from 600 to 700.
  3. Excepting temporary works, not till after the arrival of the first batch of rails, say, a few months hence.
Sir JOHN FORREST:

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. How many miles of rails are at present at Kalgoorlie and Port Augusta for the TransAustralian Railway?
  2. What is the weight per yard of the rails?
  3. How many sleepers are at each of those places?
  4. What is the position of the matter as regards ordering rails for the above work?
  5. How long will it be before the first ships with rails can arrive at Fremantle and Port Augusta ?
Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No main line rails have yet been ordered.
  2. The rails to be ordered are eighty pounds per yard.
  3. Ten thousand sleepers for temporary roads at Port Augusta.
  4. The matter is now receiving consideration.
  5. It dependson how soon the order is given.

page 1563

QUESTION

DEPARTMENTAL LABOUR: HOME AFFAIRS

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Is it true that the inspectors have mode a complaint with regard to the class of men employed on the works in connexion with the Department ?
  2. Have the inspectors asked for an interview with the Minister?
  3. Would the Minister consent to lay on the table of the House the papers in connexion with the matter? t
Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No.
  2. No.
  3. There are no papers.

page 1564

QUESTION

ALLEGED CANCER CURE

Mr W J JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether he has made any inquiry re an alleged cancer cure which formed the subject of a question on Tuesday last?
  2. Will he state by whom the alleged fraudulent preparation is made and vended ?
  3. If the Minister has not power to prevent sales of articles of this character, will he make representations to the Victorian State authorities?
Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s questions is as follows : -

The preparation referred to is manufactured in Victoria, and the Commonwealth has, therefore, no jurisdiction. Representations as indicated will be made to the State Government. I may add that this limitation to our powers in the very grave and important question of the protection of the public health seriously neutralizes our efforts in dealing with these fraudulent and pernicious preparations.

page 1564

QUESTION

EMPIRE TRADE COMMISSION

Mr FULLER:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. What salary (including expenses) is being paid to Mr. Donald Campbell, the Commonwealth representative on the Empire Trade Commission ?
  2. What instructions were given to Mr. Campbell when he was sent to England to act on this Commission ?
  3. Was it in accord with his instructions that Mr. Campbell endeavoured to induce the Commission to take evidence and make recommendations concerning inter-Dominion reciprocal Customs treaties?
  4. Was he prevented from doing so by the ruling of the Chairman?
  5. Did this ruling exclude inquiry into all forms of preference, including. Tariffs, subsidies, and shipping?
  6. Was this ruling justified under the terms of reference by which the Royal Commission was appointed?
  7. Has Mr. Campbell questioned the justification of any further, expenditure on the Commission ?
  8. Is it a fact that the Commission has decided to do nothing during the next four months ?
  9. If so, will Mr. Campbell remain in England on full pay during that period?
  10. What action, if any, does the Government intend to tak: regard to Mr. Campbell?
Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– On behalf of the Prime Minister, I have to state that -

Mr. Donald Campbell is paid an allowance of ^4 4s. a day and travelling expenses. He was instructed to represent Australia on the Commission in accordance with the resolution of the Imperial Conference. A report has not yet been received from him.

page 1564

QUESTION

REDISTRIBUTION OF ELECTORATES

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Is it usual for Chief Commonwealth Electoral Officers to make a report on all redistributions of electorates?
  2. Was the Chief Electoral Officer for Queensland asked or instructed to make a report upon the recent redistribution of the Electoral Divisions of Queensland. If so, by whom, and with what object?
Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as. follow : -

  1. No.
  2. No.

page 1564

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN BUTTER TRADE

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

– I move -

That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should instruct the High Commissioner for Australia to make arrangements for having the fullest inquiries made into the Australian! butter trade in London and the United Kingdom, having special regard to the workings and effect of the Commerce Act and the regulationsthereunder, particularly the regulation on grade marking as affecting the price of Australian, butter.

The House will appreciate the importance of this motion affecting, as it does, one cf” the biggest industries in the Commonwealth. In the face of great difficulties and much misrepresentation, those whowere specially commissioned by the dairyfarmers of Australia to look after their interests in the Old Country have, by their, energy, succeeded to a large extent in> placing our butter trade with the United Kingdom on a fairly satisfactory basisMuch yet remains to be done, however, before it will be established in a position most, advantageous to the producers bf Australia. Up to the present time, butter shipped from Australia to the Old Country has been sent direct to the London market. Very little of it has found its way direct to any of the other big centres of” population. Shipments of butter are sent to London, and thence transferred, mostly by rail, to other large centres. As the result of information which I and others had the opportunity to obtain while in England last year, and also because of strong expressions of opinion on the part of well-known men in commercial circles who have visited the Commonwealth in connexion with this matter during the last year, I have come to the conclusion that it is highly desirable, in the interests of our producers, that fresh markets should be opened up in the Old Country, and that, instead of London only being used as a distributing centre for our butter, we should have direct communication with various other big centres of population there. The market which has been brought most prominently before Australia in this connexion is that of the important shipping centre of Hull. We have had amongst us for some time, Mr. Wilson, a Commissioner from the city of Hull, who has put most forcibly before the Australian people the advisableness of seeking out the fresh markets to which I have referred, and particularly of making direct shipments of Australian produce to Hull. I propose to make a few quotations from statements made by that gentleman while in Sydney. He pointed out that the trade of Hull was growing with every part of the world except Australia, and that Russia, the Argentine, Canada, and other countries whose primary products now enter into direct competition with the primary products of Australia in the markets of the Old Country, are adopting the system of making direct shipments to various large centres of population. Mr. Wilson says the-

Trade Commissioners of Hull are spending £2,000,000 in new docks, deep water facilities, modern appliances for handling cargoes. We want your trade, particularly in butter, meat, fruit, canned goods, and hides. We already get a lot of your wool and also a large quantity of your wheat, but we are not getting any of your refrigerated produce. All that class of produce goes to London and the market there is glutted. Hull is a cheap port for handling foods.

He is referring particularly to the question of dues. At Tilbury Dock the dues are very heavy compared with those at Hull. He goes on to say -

Five railway companies whose lines run to this port control a fast service of trains in all directions. We have navigablerivers and canals north, south, and west, the whole serving onesixth of the total area of England. The river craft competes keenly with the railways for the carriage of goods, consequently we have low railway freights. You will have torely on the oversea market as an outlet for your produce.

It is impossible to serve the northern and midland counties of England via London without the grower having to pay for that expensive roundabout method of distribution from London, so that the advantage of a direct trade with Hull is at once apparent.

If the Australians can reach the consumer cheaper it is a net gain to them.

You will do a much bigger trade and you will get more uniform prices for your produce.

Australian butter sent to Hull for distribution to the northern and midland counties would save about 6s. per cwt. in charges, or¾d. per lb.

Our butter averages about1s. a lb., and a saving of¾d. a lb. is a very important consideration.

Hull serves at rates of conveyance, &c, as cheaply or cheaper than any other port a district populated by over a quarter of the total inhabitants of Great Britain.

That is an important fact to consider, namely, that in addition to the saving in the cost of transit, the produce would be taken directly to a port surrounded by over one-quarter of the inhabitants of Great Britain.

You ship annually between 30,000 and 40,000 tons of butter to Great Britain.

If 10,000 tons went to Hull for distribution in the area which we serve it would mean a saving of£70,000 per annum in charges.

We are a cheap port, and serving an enormous population, and you are neglecting it altogether.

He points out that this enormous population is now, and has been for a considerable time, served by importers from Russia, Argentine, and other countries. He further says -

There is a good deal of talk about colonial preference, but here is a preference we can offer you.

There is a large market atHull waiting for the Australian trade.

I think I have quoted sufficient from this interesting document to show honorable members that, if we had direct communication, it would prove of enormous advantage to the producers of Australia.

Mr Riley:

– What is standing in the way of direct communication?

Mr FULLER:

– At present there isno direct line of steamers to Hull as thereis to London; and another point is that steamers might find it difficult to get freight at the former place. This is one reason why I desire that the High Commissioner should be instructed to make provision for a special inquiry as to the possibilities and probabilities of establishing direct means of communication.

Mr Tudor:

– What does the honorable member suggest should be done?

Mr FULLER:

– It will be readily understood that, personally, I have not that intimate knowledge of conditions in England to enable me to make any practical suggestion ; and therefore I desire an inquiry by a Board or in some other way. When the Prime Minister was in London last year, he was approached through the High Commissioner with a view to receiving a deputation from what is known as the Colonial Committee - a body of gentlemen whom we have sent Home at our own expense to look after our interests - and others specially interested in the butter business, in order that he might be informed at first hand of the difficulties under which the Australian trade is conducted in the Old Country. Honorable members, including myself, have on different occasions attempted, in a secondhand sort of way, to bring this matter before the Government; and it was thought that the presence of the Prime Minister in London presented a capital opportunity to lay the case before- the head of the Australian Government. I myself communicated with the Prime Minister on the subject, at the instance of the Colonial Committee; but he was, unfortunately, unable, in consequence of his many engagements, to receive a deputation. I know that the Prime Minister’s time was very much occupied in connexion with the Imperial Conference and with various functions ; but, at the same time, I cannot help saying that- it is a pity he could not find an hour or two to hear described the difficulties under which those’ engaged “ in the distribution of our produce in London labour. Another matter which might form the subject of;’- investigation is the manner in which Australian butter is conveyed from Tilbury Docks to the City of London. On one occasion, when in a leading store near London,, Bridge, L. saw a large shipment of butter, which, after its arrival in -the Thames, had been three clays in transit under a sim which, I can assure honorable members, was quite as hot as any I have felt “‘in’ Melbourne or Sydney. The butter was: exposed without any covering on big barges, and, under such circumstances, the effect on quality must be very disadvantageous. We know that the Minister of Trade and Customs, like us all, is anxious to keep up the reputation of our produce to the highest possible point ; but it is well known that in London and the other markets of the United Kingdom only about 20 per cent, of our produce is sold to the people of England as Australian, the other 80 per cent., in the course of distribution, and, very often, different forms of manufacture, being distributed under various names. We do our utmost to keep our butter up to a high standard; and in the London market it is second to none to-day. While we are using our utmost endeavours in the conduct of our factories, the supervision of dairies, and by other means, to keep our butter up to the highest standard, we are allowing it, through the method of distribution going on in the Old Country, almost entirely to lose its identity as an Australian product. That forms the third ground for the appointment of a board of inquiry. The next important point to which I wish to refer is the effect of the Commerce Act regulations introduced by the present Government upon the shipment of our produce to the Old Country. We produce, according to the latest statistics which I could obtain, 193,000,000 lbs. of butter per annum, and of this we export considerably over 87,000,000 lbs. Honorable members will realize from those figures the tremendous importance and value of this product, not only to our farmers, but to the Commonwealth in general, and that anything which disadvantageous^ affects our export trade in butter must not only injure the farmers, but diminish the general wealth of the Australian’ people. Strong representations were made to the Minister by gentlemen representing the cooperative portion of the dairying industry of Australia. These are not men who are iri the business to make money out of the farmers’ products, as are speculators,, commission agents, and others who, have done so successfully in the past and”’ who are doing so well at the present’ time,_ but. are picked out from the various’ districts by the farmers’ votes, because of their qualifications and their knowledge of the farmers’ interests. These gentlemen from Victoria, New South Wales, and] Queensland met the Minister of Trade and Customs on the largest and most representative deputation that could be possibly got. together, and pointed out to him in Ian-, guage which must have convinced any reasonable man that the regulations which he proposed, and which he afterwards carried through the House, would if put into effect have a most disadvantageous effect upon our Australian product. The Minister, however, took the advice of his officials, especially the advice contained in a report drawn up by Mr. Lockyer, the ComptrollerGeneral of Trade and Customs. I presume Mr. Lockyer would not dare to say that he is acquainted in any way with the working of the dairy farms of Australia, or that from his experience he knows anything of a considerable character in connexion with the dairying industry ; but the Minister, acting on Mr. Lockyer’s report, brought into operation certain regulations, notwithstanding the strong declarations of all these gentlemen who are engaged in the co-operative dairying business. 1 desire to show that, notwithstanding Mr. Lockyer’s advice and the advice of the other officials, and the action of the .Minister, these regulations have absolutely failed to bring about the result which the Minister anticipated when introducing them, and in expectation of which he obtained the support of the majority of members of this House. The object of introducing the regulations, particularly that regulation relating to grading, was to fix the price by a system of grading in the Commonwealth before the butter left here for the London market. It was thought that on the grading of the butter here the price would be fixed before it reached London ; but let me point out how the grading system has absolutely failed to bring about the result expected by those who recommended it. We have had in London for some time a Colonial Committee, on which the New South Wales representative is Mr. King. He is a farmer born and bred, with the most intimate knowledge of the dairying industry, and he has taken the trouble, as he was bound by his position to do, to follow most closely the effect of the grading regulations on the price of our product in London. Some time back, in consequence of a quotation I made from a. letter written by Mr. King regarding the prices obtained for butter in the London market, I was taken to ‘ task by the editor of the Sydnev Morning Herald in its column “ On the Soil.” The letter was dated 1.2th January, 1912, and in it Mr. King pointed out that on the London market butter, as graded by the experts in Australia, varied from 83 to 93 points, and. the periods during which sales were effected ran from 1st December to 21st December, 1911. He also gave the prices ruling on the Home and foreign exchanges. He stated that, out of twenty -one factories, nine, which were unable to get “ first grade “ stamped on their boxes by our experts in the Commonwealth, obtained returns equal to, and in some cases better than, those factories which were so favoured. Although there is no definite evidence in connexion with the matter, there is a very large amount of suspicion indeed prevailing amongst men who are specially interested in this industry in connexion with the conduct of these experts so far as grading is concerned.

Mr Tudor:

– What does the honorable member mean by that?

Mr FULLER:

– There is a suspicion that the thing is not carried out in a straightforward and honest manner. The way in which these prices come out in the London market, by reason of the way in which some factories, at any rate, are graded, has led to a suspicion, although I say there is no evidence in connexion with it, that everything is not fair and square in connexion with the grading of the product in the Commonwealth. Out of those nine instances referred to, one brand, in particular, from Tamworth was graded on the 9th October, 191 1, at 83 points. That is just about as low as you could , get in second-class butter, as 75 per cent, means pastry butter. In addition, that consignment of Tamworth butter was marked “bare weight.” That caused the purchaser to suspect the factory manager of not having given full, weight. This butter, although graded at 83 points, was sold in the London market at the top price then ruling, and, after the sale, the boxes were weighed in the presence of the wharfinger, and all found to contain full weight, although marked “ bare weight “ by the Commonwealth officials. These things operate distinctly to the disadvantage of our producers, lt is said by way of excuse, when it is pointed out that butter, graded at 83 points, often fetches as much as butter graded at 90 points, that this is due to variations in the London market, and to peculiar - circumstances such as the scarcity of supplies, but that is not so. Let me quote, the prices obtained in London on 19th December last. The price of butler on the exchange then was from 128s. to 130s. The first lot of Australian butter sold that day was graded at 86 points, and brought 128s., but lots- graded 83 points, 87 points, 86 points, and 90 points all brought 130s. Butter graded 83 points brought just as much as butter graded 90 points. That was not an exceptional happening; it is frequently occurring in the London market, and should make it plain, even to the most biased, that the Commonwealth grading is unsatisfactory. Naturally, the London butter buyers will not consent to be governed by grading which has been done over 12,000 miles from the place at which the butter is sold. When in London, I, on several occasions, visited the stores in Tooley-street. When the butter was offered, the buyers did not look at the boxes to see what grading was marked on them, but had them opened, dipped in their knives, and tasted, and determined the quality of the butter for themselves. It is because the buyers refuse to be guided by the Commonwealth grading, and insist on determining for themselves what the quality of the butter is, that we find butter graded 83 points selling for as much as butter graded 90 points.

Mr Higgs:

– Is the honorable member opposed to any system of grading?

Mr FULLER:

– No. The Minister has started at the wrong end. The first grading should take place at the creameries.

Mr Tudor:

– Why do not the State Governments see to that?

Mr FULLER:

– Let my honorable friend speak to Premier Jim about it ; I have no influence with him. The cream is graded at the New South Wales factories without Government interference, and the State has built up a successful export industry without the help of the Government, and in spite of the disadvantages put in its way by the interference of the Commonwealth. I hope that I have said enough to show that an inquiry is necessary. The High Commissioner has enough to do in the ordinary duties of his office, and I suggest, therefore, the appointment of a Board, composed of persons in the city of London, acquainted with the butter business, and, if necessary, a representative should be sent from Australia. In view of the fact that a great part of the Australian butter now loses its identity before reaching the consumer in the Old Country, and because of the need for insuring better distribution and more favorable reception in London and in other markets abroad, I think that the inquiry I suggest should be made. The facts show that the system of grading now in operation does not give the results which the Minister and his officials said that it would give.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

– I listened carefully to the remarks of the honorable member for Illawarra, and, although not representing a dairying constituency, I, and the other members of the party to which I belong, are as anxious as is the honorable member that everything reasonable shall be done to advance the interests of that industry. The questions raised by the motion are not simple, because while there are some who object to grading altogether, there are others who are in favour of it, but would have it done on different methods. Although in his speech the honorable member for Illawarra has condemned the present system/ his motion does not do so. All he asks for is the appointment of a Board, to obtain information regarding the working and effect of the Commerce Act and its regulations so far as the grade marking of butter is concerned.

Mr Higgs:

– The members of the Opposition believe in Socialism to help the industries with which they are connected, but they are anti-Socialists where the wageearners are concerned.

Mr Fuller:

– We are opposed, to the socialistic ideas of the Minister of Trade and Customs in this matter.

Mr Higgs:

– The honorable member is asking for Government assistance to ascertain the position of the butter business at Home.

Mr Fuller:

– We want something in the nature of a Royal Commission, about which we have heard so much of late.

Mr J H CATTS:

– If a Royal Commission is to be sent to Hull, I shall be glad to be a member of it. There ought to be an inquiry into this matter. I think that the High Commissioner might very well be intrusted with the task of making it. He, no doubt, has a staff at his disposal by which the information required could be obtained. When the Minister has stated the case for the Department, we shall know whether it is necessary to seek for further information on the other side of the world ; but I understand that He would like time to go into the matter.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Sinclair) adjourned.

page 1569

MOISTURE IN BUTTER

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I move -

That in the opinion of this House; the regulation limiting the moisture contents of export butler to 15 per cent, ia detrimental to the best interests of the dairying industry in the Commonwealth.

The regulation limiting the moisture contents of butter to 15 per cent, was framed by the present Minister.

Mr Tudor:

– The maximum used to be only 14 per cent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That statement is only partly correct.

Mr Sinclair:

– It is only half the truth.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I shall deal with the point later. The Minister made the present regulation despite the opposition of all” interested in the butter industry. Unless the Minister has very grave reasons for doing so - reasons supported by technical knowledge of the very highest character - he should never turn away from the advice of those who are engaged in the industry itself. I do not know whether the Minister is aware of what has happened’ in Denmark quite recently. In 1910 the Danish Government introduced a very comprehensive measure dealing with the dairying industry, and altering the law in regard to it. I have obtained through the courtesy of the High Commissioner a copy of that Act, translated from the Danish into English, and I shall be happy at any time to show it to any honorable member who desires to examine it. Without wearying the House by reading long extracts from the Act, I should like to inform the Minister that a perusal of it will show him that the Danish Minister of Agriculture, instead of turning away from the advice of those engaged in the industry, has actually made provision to secure it. The Act makes special provision for bringing together the whole of those engaged in the industry, and for the setting up of a council to advise the Minister. The Minister of Agriculture in Denmark, under that Act cannot issue any regulation until he has taken into consultation the council to which I have just referred. Let us compare that system with the method adopted in Australia. The dairying industry of the Commonwealth is now almost entirely in the hands of co-operative companies. The dairymen of Australia, to their credit be it said, have banded themselves together into companies, and without any State assistance have brought the dairying industry into the foremost place that it occupies amongst agricultural pursuits to-day. They have had rio State assistance that has been of any value to them. On the contrary, they have encountered a good deal of opposition on the part of not only the present Minister of Trade and Customs, but his predecessors, in regard to the way in which they have conducted their industry.

Mr Tudor:

– With the exception of the present Prime Minister all my predecessors were Liberals.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Quite so; but the difference between the Minister and his predecessors is that whilst they did not assist the industry in any particular way, they at least listened to the representations of those engaged in it, and refrained from introducing regulations which in the opinion of dairymen were detrimental to the best interests of the industry.

Mr Scullin:

– I do not know of a Minister who has listened more ‘ carefully to the representations of those engaged in the industry than the present Minister of Trade and Customs has done.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– He has listened to the representations, but has acted contrary to them.

Mr Tudor:

– I raised the percentage of moisture allowed from 14 to 15 per cent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I shall deal presently with that point. Why has 16 per cent, been fixed upon by most countries as the maximum moisture to be allowed in butter ? In America, Germany, Denmark, England, New Zealand, and Australia until recently, the percentage of moisture to be allowed in butter .was fixed at 16 per cent. Why is it that practically all over the world that percentage has been fixed upon in respect to the free moisture contents of butter? The second question which I propose to ask, and to endeavour to answer, is as to why it is necessary to have any free moisture in butter, and thirdly, whether water in butter is an adulteration. To answer the first question it will be necessary for me to give honorable members some details regarding the process of butter manufacture. In the days of our grandmothers those who made butter put the cream into a churn and pounded away at it until they got the butter into a lump. They then set to work to extract the buttermilk, and to salt the butter, and after that they proceeded to wash it. In those days there was not as much free moisture in butter as there is to-day, but there was a considerable percentage of buttermilk.

Buttermilk deteriorates very rapidly, lt sets up fermentation, and necessarily it soon destroys the quality of the butter in which it is contained. When the people began to understand a little better the proper method of making butter, they, departed from the system of churning it into a lump, and proceeded to churn it to a stage which is generally known as the breaking point. There is a point in the manufacture of butter at which the cream breaks, and the butter resolves itself into the form of globules slightly larger than a pin’s head. These pin heads of butter, which appear in the chum, are absolutely pure butter. As soon as butter has been churned to that particular stage, the process of . churning ceases. Nothing further in the way of manufacturing the butter takes place in the churn itself, save when a combined- churner and butter- worker is used, and with that machine I shall deal presently. Having got these particles of butter, which are absolutely pure,’ floating about in. the buttermilk, you draw off practically the whole of the butter-milk, only a very small percentage remaining. The butter is very nearly dry, and the next process is to wash it. . It is washed again and again until the water comes away from it perfectly clear, show-‘ ing that the last trace of butter-milk has disappeared, and that the butter is quite, clean. As the result of this thorough washing, butter so made will keep infinitely longer than that which our grandmothers used to .make. The next process is’ to turn the mass of butter in the form of pins heads into the ordinary ‘ commercial article.- There is to-day in use what is known as a combined churner and butterworker, and where they are employed the working of the butter .actually, goes on in the churn itself after the process pf washing has been completed.

Mr Tudor:

– Is it not a fact that that machine distributes the water, more generally over the butter, and that we have, in that fact, one of the reasons for the.trouble that has arisen?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister has heard’ something regarding this matter, but his information is not quite correct.

Mr Tudor:

– What do the agents say when they try to place that particular machine on the market?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– To turn aside for a moment from my description of the process of butter-making, I may say, ‘in answer to the Minister, that the combined churner and butter-worker has a rather peculiar effect. It takes out of butter rather more water than is taken from it under the old process, but it has the extraordinary effect of leaving more apparent free moisture. That is to say, when you press the butter into a box you get more apparent free moisture on the surface than you do in the case of butter manufactured in the way I have described. The actual amount of moisture left in the butter is somewhat less than the quantity left under the old system. The combined churn and butter- worker consequently is not a really suitable machine for the manufacture of export butter, because the apparent free moisture on the surface tends to make the butter mouldy. That, however, is by the way. To return to my description of the process of buttermaking, let me inform honorable members that after the butter has been thoroughly worked, and. the water has been drawn off, it is ‘ salted and pressed in a butter - worker into the ordinary commercial product, and the greater part of that free moisture which is necessarily in it is removed. I come now to the question as to why it is not . possible to extract the whole of the moisture, and why it is necessary to provide for a margin of something like 16 per cent. Why is it that all the countries’ to which I have referred allow for that margin of moisture? The reason is that in the process of manufacture it is necessary to preserve the appearance, and, secondly, the texture, of the butter. The desire of butter-makers is, so far as appearance is concerned, to get “as waxy a butter, as possible, and, secondly, a butter which, when broken, will present a surface like that of cast-iron when broken. These are necessary considerations. If the butter be overworked, it will lose its waxy appearance and become greasy looking, whilst it will also lose its texture. A greasy butter, and one that has no texture, will not keep ; what is more, it will be streaky, and greasy and streaky butter will not sell. To secure that waxy appearance, to get that perfect blend of colour right through the mass of butter, and that peculiar cleavage which gives it the appearance of cast-iron when broken, it is necessary to work the butter up to a certain point, and no further. The point which has been discovered to be the best, in order to obtain a good commercial butter that will keep, is from 12 per cent, to 16 per cent. It is necessary to have a certain margin on account of the different temperatures at which butter is actually worked up; the colder the temperature at which it is possible to work the butter - it can only be worked in a certain temperature - the drier the butter will be; while the hotter, the temperature the wetter it will be. It is utterly impossible in a climate such as ours, with wide variations, to work butter always at an even temperature. With refrigeration we get as closely as we can to an even temperature; but, as I say, there must be a certain margin. The only result of reducing the standard below what it should be is that very often, in the endeavour to get the butter dry enough, it is absolutely spoiled. This is, I understand, a regulation designed to improve the quality of Australian butter. I contend, however, that the Minister, not knowing the technique of the business, is introducing a regulation which may, and will, have the effect of destroying the quality of the butter. Men who have spent their lives in the industry, and who know all about it, do not, as hinted by the Minister, desire this moisture as a means to put money into their own pockets ; their desire is to have a standard which is recognised all over the world as that which results in manufacturing the greatest proportion of the best article possible. It is to our interests to endeavour to produce the best butter’; when we send it Home we wish for the best price, and for the best price we produce the best possible article.

Mr Higgs:

– Why does, the honorable member desire a higher percentage for export than for local consumption?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I venture to say that there is practically no butter sold in Australia with more than 15 per cent, of moisture. If the Minister had taken butter out of a churn, and, having put. it on the worker, was watching it, could he tell the moment’ when he had taken out exactly 15 per’ cent. ? No man living could do so, although those who know the business can estimate it pretty closely. If the standard were made -1.4 per cent., they would have to work it up within a necessary margin - there must be a margin.

Mr Scullin:

– What margin does the honorable member suggest - 2 ‘per cent. ?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– A margin of 2 per cent, or 3 per cent, is necessary.

Mr Scullin:

– Is not 2 per cent, enough ?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is very difficult to tell exactly. I have had experience of the work, and I know the trouble to tell when the right moisture has been reached, whilst preserving the essential qualities of a first class marketable butter.

Mr Tudor:

– Is it not true that all butter was drier three or four years ago than it is now?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I do not know; but I can tell the Minister that our butter has been constantly drawn nearer and nearer top price in London every year.

Mr Tudor:

– And the biggest jump was last year.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister states that our butters have been getting wetter each year, but, if so, why is it that they have reached the top prices ?

Mr Tudor:

– They have not got anywhere near that, and the honorable member knows it.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Indeed,, they have; and I speak as one who has been selling butter for a good number of years.

Mr Tudor:

– We were £1 behind the Denmark price, but last year we got within 4s.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– We have frequently been within 3s. or 4s. of the Denmark price; it altogether depends on the market. The next point raised by the Minister was that 14 per cent, of moisture has always been regarded in Australia as the right percentage for superfine butter; and I grant that willingly.

Mr Tudor:

– Is it possible to have two standards? Would the honorable member prefer to go back to 14 per cent, and 16 per cent. ?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If the Minister knew what I know he would not ask the question.

Mr Tudor:

– Would the honorable member like to go back to the principle of two standards?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes; of course, I would., I admit that superfine butter will never have more than 14 per cent, of moisture. But we may have a butter worked to contain 16 per cent., and another worked to contain 14 per cent., or less, and the one with the less moisture will be the. worse butter.

Mr Tudor:

– And yet the honorable member says that we never , have a superfine butter with more than 14 per cent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I grant that willingly. While superfine butter will never have more than 14 per cent, of moisture, there are certain butters, manufactured under certain conditions, which, the more water is taken out of them after 16 per cent, has been reached, suffer in quality, and command smaller prices. These are things which have been proved to us over and over again. It is not a question whether 14 per cent, constitutes superfine butter or not ; the question is whether we should not allow 16 per cent, when, if that be reduced, a worse butter will result. I need not deal with the question why 16 per cent, has been suggested, or why it is necessary to have water in butter ; we cannot help having water if we wish to produce a good commercial article. We must either have water or buttermilk, and of the two water is infinitely the better for public health and the producers’ pocket. The standard should be that which is recognised all over the world as the best for the process of manufacture. I now come to the question of whether this moisture constitutes adulteration, and an answer given to the honorable member for Maranoa the other day shows conclusively that the Minister of Trade and Customs does so regard it. The honorable member for Maranoa asked whether the Minister was aware that a large proportion of the Australian butter sent to London was purchased for blending purposes, and that moisture was incorporated in process of blending. To this the Minister replied that if such were the case, it surely must follow that the less water in the butter the higher price it must realize. I think I have already shown what I was going to say was the falsity of this position; but, at any rate, if the Minister had known what I have endeavoured to explain, he would never have given that answer, which is simply absurd to any one who knows the process of manufacture. It is this sort of answer from official quarters that makes those who are really acquainted with the facts so despairing of ever getting a “fair thing” from the Department. The Minister went on to say that it could not be admitted that “ any such mixing or adulteration abroad is a sufficient argument for its encouragement in Australia.” If the first part of the answer is absurd, the second part is the height of absurdity. In the Old Country they do not blend with water, but with milk ; and- any one who knew the facts would never have given the answer I have read. I may tell the Minister of Trade and Customs that at the present time there is being imported into Australia and sold a little machine into which if you place a pound of butter and a pint of milk, you can, by turning a handle, presently have two pounds of butter.

Mr Tudor:

– Such a machine would not be permitted to be sold in Australia.

Mr West:

– Does it make the butter cheaper ?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. The machine is being largely purchased by hotelkeepers, restaurant-keepers, and people in similar lines of business, so that the butter we get at our meals down town is probably half milk and half butter.

Mr Tudor:

– I shall certainly direct the attention of the State authorities to this machine.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is being imported from abroad.

Mr Tudor:

– That does not matter; in Victoria butter with over 15 per cent, of moisture is not allowed to be sold.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– In the instances I have given, the butter is not sold, but consumed on the premises. I think I have shown pretty clearly this afternoon that the presence of moisture is not adulteration. I ask leave to continue my speech later.

Leave granted ; debate adjourned.

page 1572

ESTIMATES

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of messages from His Excellency the GovernorGeneral transmitting Estimates of revenue and expenditure, and Estimates of expenditure for additions, new works, buildings, &c, for the year ending 30th! June, 1913, and recommending appropriations accordingly.

Referred to Committee of Supply

page 1572

BUDGET

In Committee- of Supply:

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I should like,, first of all, to say that it has now become* a very difficult task for the Treasury officials to get the whole of the accounts f ron* every part of Australia and Papua in timeto enable them to produce the Budget statement so early in the financial year as this is. I wish to express my appreciation of the efforts they have made to have the figures ready at this time.

In presenting the last Budget to Parliament on the 26th October, 191 1, the surplus of revenue over expenditure for the year ended 30th June, 191 1, was stated at £1,829,524. When the Treasury books, were finally balanced this amount appeared as £1,837,175. It was transferred for future expenditure to the Construction of Fleet Fund and the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Fund, in equal amounts of £918,587.

In framing the Budget of 1911-12 it was estimated that £1,712,679 of this amount would be expended during the financial year. I am happy to say that, owing to the large receipts from Customs, and the savings on the estimated expenditure, it was not necessary to expend this amount, as the revenue exceeded the expenditure by £424,366, of which amount £278,242 was transferred to the Construction of Fleet Fund, and £146,124 to the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Fund.

On the 30th June, 191 2, there was, in all, at the credit of the Construction of Fleet Fund and the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Fund, the amount of . £2,261,541. This amount may be considered as the surplus balance brought forward from preceding years, and is available for expenditure in the present financial year.

The revenue for the year ended 30th June last amounted to £20,546,361.

Customs and Excise reached the large amount of £14,710,199, being £1,729,755 in excess of the collections of the previous year and £910,199 above the estimate.I attribute the present large receipts principally to the great prosperity which Australia is now enjoying, and which I hope will long continue. The Post Office yielded £3,916,599, being £46,599 over the estimate, and £10,584 in excess of the receipts of the preceding year. This was in spite of the fact thatwe had penny postage throughout the Commonwealth and British Dominions during the whole of 1911-12, while it was in operation only for two months in the previous year. It is estimated by the Postal Department that the loss on penny postage for the year was £470,000.

The Land Tax yielded £1,366,454, being £63,546 under the estimate, and £3,891 less than the receipts of 1910-11.

The gross profits from coinage amounted to £156,489, being £53,511 less than the estimate, and £42,404 less than those of the previous year. Some difficulty has been found in obtaining sufficient quantities of silver coin from London, in consequence of pressure of business in the Royal Mint, owing to gold requirements of the Bank of England - also in collecting British, silver in convenient denominations from the banks in order to exchange it for Australian coinage. I am hoping to make such arrangements that we shall be able, in future, to regularly export £100,000 per annum in face value of British silver. It is, of course, difficult to collect small coins from every part of Australia, but the difficulty will be overcome.

Included in last year’s revenue was art amount of £113,340, being the balance of Defence Trust Fund Accounts on the 30th June. The Defence Department desired that this amount should remain in the respective Trust Funds created for the convenient working of the various factories established by the Department ; but I take the view that, although Trust Funds may be used with advantage during the year in connexion with the working of the factories, the Department should not be allowed to accumulate funds which could be used in future years without reviewby Parliament.

The expenditure for the year ended 30th June last was £20,121,995, not including the amount of £424,366 which I have already referred to as having been charged to Special Appropriations, and credited to the Fleet and Old-age Pension Funds.

The amounts paid to each State during 191 1-12 under the Surplus Revenue Act of 1910 are set forth in the following table: - Turning now to the current year, the revenue is estimated as follows : - The estimated expenditure of 1912-13 consists of the following, viz. : - The following items of expenditure are provided for in the amount of £3.985,931 for New Works and Buildings, viz. : - The following table shows the estimated amounts payable to each State during 1912-13 under the Surplus Revenue Act: - In connexion with the Post and Telegraph Department, it will be seen that last year the expenditure, not including New Works and Buildings, exceeded the revenue by £385,954. The expenditure for New Works and Buildings was £1,442,475. It is estimated that during the current year the expenditure, not including New Works, will exceed the revenue by £440,265. The expenditure provided for New Works is £1,152,275. In addition to the amount of £830,000 provided this year for telegraphs and telephones and for wireless telegraphy, the Department will probably expend £429, 460, the balance unexpended of the £600,000 specially provided last year, and paid into a special trustaccount. Provision has been made for a large increase in the permanent staff of the Post Office. It has been represented by the Department that economy would finally result from such new appointments, the present system of employing a large number of temporary hands being very unsatisfactory ; provision has accordingly been made for an additional staff of 1,736 officers. The total number of permanent officers provided for in the Estimates is 18,587. In 1906-7, only 10,961 were provided for. In 1902-3, the revenue was £2,404,730, being 12s. 5a. per head. In 1912-13, the revenue is estimated at £4,202,000, or 17s. 10¾d. per head. In 1902-3, the expenditure, not including New Works, was £2,433,147, or 13s. 3d. per head. In 1912-13, the expenditure, not including New Works, is estimated at £4,674,715, or 19s. 11d. per head. Provision has been made for the erection during the year of ten wireless telegraph stations. It is estimated that there will be an increase of £19,000 over the expenditure of the previous year for the conveyance of mails, due to extension of existing facilities, and to increased cost of existing services. An increase of £14,000 has been provided to meet the additional rate of payment to the State Railway Departments from 1 st January last, under the agreement pro- viding for a re-weighing of the mails during November, 191 1. A sum of £45,500 has been provided to allow of remuneration being given to nonofficial postmasters on an increased scale. I come now to the Defence Department. The expenditure for Defence has largely increased during the last three years. The total expenditure, including new works, &c, from 1st January, 1901, to 30th June, 1910, was £9,578,997. The expenditure in 1910-11, 1911-12, and 1912- 13 is estimated at £12,524,429, of which £5,438,364 is included in the Estimates for the current financial year. The following information, which has been furnished by that Department, will be interesting to honorable members : - It is the intention this year to hold a nine-months' School of Instruction, for the purpose of training sixty candidates for the Instructional Staff, and provision has been made accordingly. It is intended to establish a school for the training of officers in aviation. Provision has been made for two pilot aviators and four mechanists ; also for the purchase of aviation stores. Four machines have already been purchased. The training of cadets at the Royal Military College is proceeding satisfactorily. Seventy-nine cadets are in residence, fifteen of whom are from New Zealand. The number of cadets will be largely increased during this year, and provision has been made accordingly. The Cordite Factory is at present en gaged in experimental and proof work. The cordite produced has passed the Ballistic test, but the chemical capability tests are not yet completed. There -is, however, no reason to doubt that the cordite produced will be suitable for ammunition. The plant of the Small Arms Factory has been installed, and has passed satisfactory tests, and the final payment on account of the contract has been made to Messrs. Pratt and Whitney. Up to the present, the factory has been engaged in the manufacture of component parts of rifles, a considerable stock of which is in hand. It is anticipated that the assembling of the rifles, and the output of completed small arms, will shortly commence. The Clothing Factory - which at present employs 300 hands - began operations in January last, and during the period' January to June, 1912, turned out garments to the value of £26,795. The clothing manufactured was of a high quality, and was turned out at a reasonable cost. It is anticipated, however, that the cost of production will be considerably lowered during this year. It has been found that the present capacity of the factory is not sufficient for requirements, and provision has been made for the duplication of the plant. The Harness and Saddlery Factory has been in full working order for the past eleven months, and during that time a large quantity of high-class military equipment, as well as mail-bags, &c, has been manufactured, to the satisfaction of the Defence and Postmaster-General's Departments. At present, 115 hands are employed ; and the results achieved by this factory are of such a satisfactory nature that it is intended to enlarge the premises during this year, when the number of hands will also most probably be increased. A site for the Woollen Cloth Factory has been selected at Geelong, at the Corio Quay, and the erection of the buildings, and the purchase of the machinery and power plant, are now being proceeded with. The estimates of expenditure for the Naval branch of the Defence Department show an increase of £370,407, the principal items being for maintenance of ships and vessels, £186,000, and for permanent sea-going Naval Forces, £114,800. Provision has been made to enter twentyfour cadets on 1st January next in the Naval College at Geelong. It is anticipated that the buildings at Jervis Bay will be sufficiently advanced to accommodate the boys to be entered on 1st January, 191 4. Ninety-nine boys have been entered on the boys' training ship *Tingira,* and it is proposed to enter an additional 100 boys before 30th June, 1913. As regards the permanent sea-going Naval Forces, provision is made for a full year for the crews of the *Encounter,* the *Yarra,* the *Parramatta,* and the *Warrego,* the gunboats *Gaydundah, Paluma,* and *Protector,* and torpedo boats. Provision is made for an average of four months each for H.M.A.Ss. *Australia, Sydney,* and *Melbourne,* depot ship for submarines, and submarines *A.E.i* and *A.E.2.* Portion of the crews of these vessels has to be collected before the vessels themselves are actually ready. Full complements for the above-mentioned vessels, totalling 2,539 officers and men, are provided on Estimates. As regards Naval establishments, provision is made for taking over H.M. .Naval establishments at Sydney during 1912-13. Approximate expenditure of one month only for salaries is provided. Provision is also made for the necessary *personnel* for Naval Depot and Dockyard at Williamstown, also gunnery, torpedo, and wireless schools. As regards Naval Reserves, provision is made for the boys who passed from the senior cadets into the adult forces on 1st July - that is, boys attaining the age of eighteen years during 1912 - numbering 807. The number of senior naval cadets on 1st July was 3,225. There is an increase of £36,000 for the maintenance of ships and vessels consequent upon the necessary provision for twelve months, for H.M.A. ships actually in commission, including H.M.A.S. *Encounter,* and, for portion of the year, for the three cruisers building in Great Britain. For reserves of stores there is an increase of £150,000, necessary for the purchase of reserves of stores to be stocked by the Admiralty at Sydney, before 30th June, 1913, for use of Fleet unit. An increase of £6,800 is necessary to provide for increased *personnel* of ships and establishments. The estimates of expenditure in connexion with the Military Forces for 1912-13 show an increase of, approximately, £369,000, in comparison with last year's figures. This increase is partly caused by the necessity to provide for the largely increased staffs required for administration and instruction in connexion with the universal training movement. Additional reasons for the increase are given below. Under "Royal Australian Field Artillery" provision has been made for the instructional cadre in Queensland to be brought up to the establishment of a full battery - to be designated No. 3 Battery, Royal Australian Field Artillery. Provision has also been made for a staff to instruct the Militia Field Artillery. Under." Royal Australian Garrison Artillery," permanent officers and noncommissioned officers to complete the first relief of manning for the fixed defences have been provided for. A number of instructors have also been provided for, to carry out the instruction of the Militia Garrison Artillery. Under "Royal Australian Engineers," provision lias been made for increased *personnel* required in connexion with the formation of a first relief for the working of defence electric lights, as recommended by Lord Kitchener. Increased rates of pay for all ranks have also been provided for. Under " Permanent Army Service Corps," provision has been made for increased *personnel* for the remount sections, required to train and handle remounts for the new batteries of Militia Field Artillery which it is intended to raise this year. It is intended to obtain the services of an officer of the British Army Ordnance Department for the purpose of advising as to the re-organization of the Ordnance Department in the Commonwealth. A sum has also been provided to meet the cost of increased *personnel* which will be required upon re-organization. Under " Instructional Staff," provision has been made for the promotion of eighteen warrant and non-commissioned officers to the commissioned rank of quartermaster; also for increased rates of pay to warrant and non-commissioned officers. An increased number of instructors has also been provided, to meet the requirements of universal training. Consequent upon the first quota of universal trainees being drafted into the Citizen Forces this year, a re-organization of the militia became necessary. The number of militia provided for this year is, therefore, approximately 20,000 in excess of the number provided for last year. It has been decided to issue uniform free to all members of the Citizen Forces, and as this will be no longer a charge against the corps, the " Clothing and Corps Contingent Allowance " has been reduced accordingly. Under the Defence (Universal Training) Act, the artillery and engineers are required to do seventeen days' continuous training in camp. Provision has been made for this, and also for the largely increased numbers which will be available for continuous training. Under " Universal Training - Cadets," provision has been made for the supply of uniforms, including boots, for the cadets who become liable for training this year. It is proposed to increase the facilities for teachers in the State Education Departments to become qualified to impart instruction in physical training to the junior cadets, and provision has been made accordingly. An amount of £544,450 has been provided for the purchase of military material, &c. Under the division " Military Stores, &c," provision is made for the purchase of arms, accoutrements, and general equipment for the Militia Forces upon increased establishment under the universal training system. A sum of £12,600 is included towards establishing a reserve of cordite for small-arms ammunition. Provision has been made for the duplication of the nitroglycerine section of the Cordite Factory, also to meet the cost of machinery and plant for the Woollen Cloth Factory, and for the duplication of the plant of the Clothing Factory. A large sum has also been provided to purchase armament and stores for fixed defences. Under " Additions, New Works, &c. Estimates," under the control of the Naval Department, there is an increase of £278,050, made up as follows: - The amount provided for Naval works is to meet expenditure on Naval bases at Flinders, Port Stephens, and Cockburn Sound, and includes a sum of £60,000 towards estimated cost of two dredgers to be built in Australia, and to be completed in the next financial year. The sum of £110,000 for " Fleet Unit " is towards cost of a submarine depot ship, an oil-tank steamer, and three oil-fuel storage floating tanks. These are in addition to the vessels provided for under Special Appropriation Act No. 18 of 1910. The amount of £7,150 for " Naval College " is for machinery and plant for the College at Jervis Bay. It has been decided to duplicate the wireless .telegraph stations at Port Moresby and Thursday Island, at a cost of £900, the duplication being solely for naval defence purposes. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Plenty of money for blood and thunder ! {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Defence is a matter which we should either not touch at all, or carry it out efficiently- The Naval Subsidy made to Great Britain of £200,000 per annum has been reduced this year to £175,000, the Admiralty having agreed, in consideration of the Commonwealth Government taking over H.M.S. *Encounter* a« one of the ships of the Australian squadron from ist July, 191 2, to accept a reduction of ,£25,000 in the amount of the contribution from that date. I pass now to the Department of Trade and Customs, which tells a different tale. During the past twelve months, special care has been exercised in administering the provisions of the Commerce Act, so as to maintain a high standard in the quality of the goods exported from the Commonwealth. The goods specially examined, such ai meat, butter, leather, rabbits, fruit, &c, amounted in value to £8,959,057. In regard to meat, steps have been taken to bring into effect uniform methods in all the States to govern the examination prior to export, and the action taken insures that no meat leaves the Commonwealth that i» not in every way suitable for human consumption. The system adopted so fully meets the requirements of the United States authorities that they have now registered the names of the Commonwealth inspectors, and' grant facilities to the admission of Australian meat bearing the certification of these inspectors. The British Government health authorities have republished the Commonwealth instructions in their report of 191 1, and comment on trie improvement shown in the meat now reaching them from trie Commonwealth. To carry out the regulations, the Commonwealth employs forty-six qualified meat inspectors, who examine all carcases at time of slaughter, and reject any diseased or emaciated. In regard to butter, it is satisfactory to note that, during this period, there have been no complaints in Great Britain on account of Australian butter containing an excess of moisture or any adulterant. During the year, compulsory grading oi butter was initiated, and it is interesting to note that during the first year it has been tried, there has been a great levelling up in the British markets in the price of Australian butters compared with those of Denmark and New Zealand. In 1907, the difference between Danish and Australian was 17s. 6d. per cwt. ; for the five years previous to compulsory grading its. 2d., while during the recent season, the average difference has been only 4s., while on several occasions Australian and Danish prices were practically equal. Special care has been taken to safeguard the people of the Commonwealth by preventing the importation of quack" medicines, children's foods, &c, which bear extravagant or misleading claims. Over 2,000 preparations have been examined and dealt with, proclamations against importation being issued, where necessary. The total cost to the Commonwealth of the strict and effective supervision over exports and imports is not great, the cost amounting to some £19,000, while the sum of £12,000 is collected in the shape of fees, &c, on goods examined. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- Is that £19,000 paid to the States? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The £19,000 covers the whole of the charges of inspection of every kind, and the income is £12,090. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- Is that the compensation paid to State officers? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- They are not all State officers employed; wherever the Minister can co-opera'te, he does so. **Mr. D.** McAlpine, Vegetable Pathologist for the State of Victoria, who has been engaged during the year in the investigation of bitter pit disease, has furnished his first progress report to the Minister, who has instructed that it be printed at once, and made available. In last year's statement, it was mentioned that the Board of Inquiry, nominated to investigate the nature and result of the *Endeavour's* work, expressed a very high opinion as to her performances and the usefulness of her work. They also suggested that an experimental trip should be made on commercial lines. This was done, with the result that 5 tons of marketable fish were taken during nineteen and. a quarter hours of actual fishing, or at the rate of 590 lbs. per hour of fishing. Another noteworthy result of the ship's work is the discovery of extensive and rich fishing grounds in the Great Australian Bight, and within localities that previously were altogether unknown. Through her survey work incidental to the fishing, the *Endeavour* has also ascertained the position of the Hundred Fathom Line all through the Australian Bight, which is of great value to shipping; and her surveys are otherwise essential to all commercial deep-sea fishing that may be initiated. Several local proposals to float fishing companies are under consideration, but owing to a general want of knowledge of such matters, progress has been slow. Lately, however, several inquiries made by firms in the United Kingdom show that the *Endeavour's* work is being closely watched, and that modern trawlers may be sent out to take advantage of the exploration work already done. There are still vast areas unexploited, but sufficient has been attained to show that trawling, if carried out on proper lines, must be a commercial success in Australia, even if the fish is sold at popular prices, and. forwarded considerable distance inland. On this occasion last year, I announced, in respect of quarantine, that the Government had sent **Dr. Norris,** the Director of Quarantine, abroad to inquire into, and report upon, quarantine methods and equipment in other countries. This course had been decided upon owing to the large prospective expenditure which had been recommended by the Director on account of the defective and starved condition of the quarantine machinery handed over to the Commonwealth. As was then stated, whilst this Government fully recognised that the protection of the public health was the first consideration, it was hoped that it might be possible to avoid undue expense. The Director, who was absent six months, has now submitted a report to the Minister controlling the quarantine service, and, after study of the report, the Government are satisfied that large and careful expenditure is absolutely necessary for the due protection of the Commonwealth - the cleanest country in the world, as regards disease - from the pestilences which are found in every other continent, and which threaten us more every day, owing to our increasing intercourse and trade with those continents. It may be mentioned that quarantinable disease has been brought to Australia with greater frequency during the past twelve months than ever before. Fortunately, it has, in every instance, been detected and prevented from obtaining a footing. It is proposed to distribute the expenditure over several years, but during the present year it is intended to make good the more serious gaps in this, the first line of sanitary defence in Australia. The result will, it is believed, be not only greater security against the entrance of disease, but also a reduction of the delays to trade and commerce which quarantine necessarily entails. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- What amount is placed on the Estimates in connexion with **Dr. Norris'** report? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The amount is £50,000. Reports on the coastal light-house service have been received, giving full details of the immediate requirements of Queensland, Tasmania, south-east coast of Victoria, and Northern Territory. The coasts of South Australia and Western Australia have also been visited, and reports are now being completed. The coast of New South Wales and the western coast of Victoria, a total of about 1,000 miles, remain to be inspected. The work of this Department has greatly increased during the past year. The great increase in revenue and immigration has been dealt with without adding very materially to the expenses of the Department. The following statement shows the cost of collection per cent, of the Customs and Excise revenue of the Commonwealth for 1909-10, 1 9 10- 1 1, 1911-12, and estimate for 191 2-13 : - The cost of working the Department is less now than at any other time since Federation. Honorable members will be pleased to know that the Minister of External Affairs is making arrangements, through the High Commissioner, for the establishment of agencies for the distribution of our produce in the countries of Europe. And here I might express the hope that the time is not far distant when any conflict between representatives of the States in England as to the right of labelling honey, and so forth, will come to an end. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- To what fs the honorable gentleman alluding? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- There was some dispute, I understand, as to Victorian honey being labelled " South Australian honey," and so forth. I hope -that disputes of the kind will now come to an end, and that we shall recognise all produce from Australia as Australian produce, provided it be of good quality. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- What is the nature of the agencies that are suggested? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- About £5,000 has been placed on the Estimates to enable the High Commissioner to open up agencies in European countries, with the object of placing Australian produce on the market. Similar agencies have already been provided foi in Great Britain. The principal positions on the administrative staff of the Northern Territory have been rilled, and an examination is being made of areas which it is proposed to make available for settlers. A separate provision has been made for the office of Judge, as it is considered that the positions of Judge and Administrator should be separated. Schools and agricultural stations are being provided for the natives, who number about 20,000. Progress is being made with demonstration farms, and it is proposed to appoint an entomologist in order to deal with insect pests. A Director of Mines and Geologist has been appointed, it being desired that the mines shall be worked more scientifically than in the past. Provision is made for the erection of houses for Government employes, as it. has been found that private enterprise has done practically nothing towards meeting this want. It is proposed to purchase two steamers, one to maintain communication along the coast, and the other to act as auxiliary vessel for river work. Two thousand five hundred pounds is provided towards cost. The vote for advancement ot the study of tropical diseases has been increased from £1,350 to £4,000, it being thought desirable, that the scope of the investigations made by the Tropical Diseases Hospital at Townsville should be increased. The vote for administration of Papua has been increased from £25,000 to £30,000, as it is intended to establish a number of additional stations, the LieutenantGovernor having reported that such are absolutely necessary. ' Ten thousand pounds is provided towards the cost of a. new Government steamer, estimated at £25,000, the present vessel having been purchased twenty-four years ago, and being practically worn out. The wireless station at Port Moresby will probably be finished within the next six weeks. Honorable members will find ari interesting statement on page 62 of the Budgetpapers, setting forth the expenditure on new works, buildings, &c, from 1901-2 to date. The total expenditure to the 30th June last was £14,100,749, and the Commonwealth is to be congratulated on having expended this money from revenue instead of having raised a public debt for the purpose. It will be observed that the value of the property taken over from the States amounted to £9, 591 .588, so that the Commonwealth has since expended one and a-half times as much. It will also be noticed that during he three years 1910-11, 1911-12, and *1912-13* it is estimated that £10,004,379 will be expended, whilst during the nine years ending 30th June, 1909, only £4,096,370 was spent. The total expenditure to date on new works, &c, including value of transferred properties, is £23,692,337. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- You have not paid it all yet. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The right honorable member is quite right when he says that we have not paid for the transferred properties, but we have done exceedingly well during these three years, the term of which the present Government have held office, for in that period we have paid over £1 0,000,000 out of revenue towards new works. That amount, which includes the estimate for this financial year, is being added to the capital value of the properties being used for the public purposes of the Commonwealth. Any country which does that need not be alarmed about its financial position. Last year £68,245 was expended on works connected with the establishment of the Federal Capital. This year the amount of £110,000 has been provided for the construction of a railway from Queanbeyan to the city site, and for carrying out other preliminary works incidental to the building of the city. In accordance with the Commonwealth Inscribed Stock Act 191 1, Trust Funds under the control of the Treasurer were invested in stock on the 1st of April last, the necessary authority having been granted by the Loan Act 191 1. Funds were thus made available as follows : - As regards the Commonwealth stock, provision has been made in the Estimates for contribution to a sinking fund at the rate of 10s. per cent, per annum. Provision has also been made for similar contributions to sinking fund in connexion with the loans taken over from South Australia in terms of the Northern Territory Acceptance Act. The rate payable in respect of these loans is the same as that which the State had promised to pay. {: .speaker-KNI} ##### Mr Harper: -- How is the sinking fund to be invested? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- In the same manner as we invest the other funds-- in the best way we can, to gain the highest interest. Last year the amount of £673,600 was voted by Parliament Tor interest at 3 per cent., and sinking fund at $ per cent., on the value of properties transferred from the States to the Commonwealth, the interest being calculated from the ist July, 1910. The amount of £570,995, being interest at 3 per cent, from that date, was paid to the States. No payment was made, however, to sinking fund, as I propose, subject to the approval of Parliament, to pay the States the full amount of 3J per cent, interest as from ist July, 1910. Provision has been made in the present Estimates accordingly. An inquiry into the methods pursued by the State Department of the Government Printer having been instituted by the Premier of Victoria, I have made the suggestion that, considering the interest which the Commonwealth Government has in the working of the office, an expert appointed by it should be associated with the gentleman appointed to conduct the inquiry on behalf of the State. I think that, generally speaking, the arrangement made with the Government of Victoria was a good one, but there is no doubt that it is very difficult to work such an establishment in which part of the machinery and type is owned by Commonwealth and part by State, in such a manner as to be fair to both. The Commonwealth Bank was opened for business on the 15th July, the Act commencing on that date by proclamation. I am happy to say that the Bank has made a satisfactory commencement; 2,760 accounts have been opened in the Savings Branch, the amount of deposits being £69,697. This is in the State of Victoria. There have been 117 withdrawals, amounting to £808. The Land Tax, whilst making a substantial contribution to revenue, has operated beneficially in inducing some owners to subdivide their large estates, providing homes for more settlers and adding to the productiveness of the land. On 30th June, 1912, there were 79,071 old-age pensioners, being an increase of 3,569 in the twelve months. This increase cannot be considered large, because the number of persons who are qualified1 by age to receive old-age pensions, but who do not draw old-age pensions, is great. There are at present about 105,000 men in the Commonwealth over the age of 65 years, and about 140,000 women over the age of 60 years. Men and women together who are qualified by age number 245,000. Of these, 79,000 are pensioners, and 166,000 are not pensioners. A considerable number would be debarred from obtaining pensions through their, having property or income in excess of that allowed by the Act, or through being aliens, &c. ; but it is certain that the number who, from independence of spirit or from sentiment, refrain from claiming old-age pensions is large. From these persons a regular increase in the pension-list may be expected, because reluctance to accept old-age pensions is gradually becoming less. This is inevitable in a system which recognises that pensions are a right, and not a charity. On the whole, it is thought that the increase of 3,569 old-age pensioners in the year is only a normal one. On 30th June last, the number of invalid pensioners was 10,763, being an increase of 3,312 on the figures for the previous year. It may be anticipated that the increase in future years will not' be so great, because at the 30th June, 191 1, invalid, pensions had been payable by the Commonwealth for a period of six months only, and the first rush of pensioners to take advantage of the Act had not ceased on that date. The expenditure on old-age and invalid pensions in the year just closed amounted to £2,148,034 compared with £^1,868,648 in the previous year. These figures, however, do not represent the true position, because the pension list was being added to considerably during each year. The proper comparison is on the annual rate payable on the last day of each financial year. On 30th June, 191 1, the annual rate of payment was £2,054,364. On 30th June, 1912, it was £2,224,066 approximately, being an increase of £169,702 in the year. The amount actually payable to old-age and invalid pensioners in 1912-13 is estimated at £2,405,000. This includes provision for increased payments which will result if Parliament pass a Bill, to be shortly submitted, for the purpose of granting pensions to persons who are at present disqualified by the ownership of homes. The cost of administration of Invalid and Old-age Pensions during 1911-12 was £41,794, being at the rate of £1 18s. lod. for every ,£roo of pensions paid. The cost of administration in 1912-13 is estimated at £45,715, or £1 18s. for every £IO° of pensions paid. In this connexion it may be mentioned that the cost of administration in New South Wales was, in 1908-9 (the last year of the State system), £25,141, and the total amount paid in pensions was ,£602,208. The cost of administration represented £4 3s. 6d. for every .£100 of pensions paid. It should also be pointed out that the comparison is somewhat unfair to the Commonwealth administration, in that the cost of the latter includes payments for some services which were rendered free to the State Pensions Office. A comparison with the cost in New Zealand is not easily made, because the published figures apparently do not include the cost of services rendered by other Departments. The low cost of Commonwealth administration as compared with that of New South Wales is largely accounted for by the fact that pensions in New South Wales were paid by the bank, which received £2 for every £100 of pensions paid. Under the Commonwealth an improved method of payment and accounting has been established? and the work ot ' payment costs 12s. 6d. for every £100 ot pensions paid. A sum of £400,000 has been included in the Estimates for maternity allowances. A Bill will shortly be introduced for the purpose of making these grants. I feel confident that a wise step. is being taken in initiating this policy. The protection of the mother and the safety of the child are so important, to the community, and so humanitarian, that I feel sure that, although the administration will not be free from difficulties, suffering will be relieved, health promoted, and valuable lives spared to the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr Deakin: -- Is it to be on the plan originally suggested ? Is the payment to be made at one time and in one sum ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- A Bill has not yet been drafted to give effect to the policy of the Government, but it is intended to make the mother the recipient of the allowance, and that the expense of administration shall be practically nil. There is to be no waste «f money in transmitting the allowance to those whom we desire to aid. The amending Notes Act of 191 1 provides that the Treasurer shall hold in gold coin a reserve of not less than one-fourth of the amount of Australian notes issued. The amendment took effect on 1st July, 1912, and until that date the Treasurer was required to keep in gold coin onefourth of the amount up to .£7,000,000, and £1 for £1 above £7,000,060. At 30th June, the circulation stood at £9,485,943, and the gold in the Treasury amounted to .£4,279, 007, being ,£43,064 above the amount then legally required. In July, ,£340,000 in. gold was transferred from the Treasury vaults to the banks in Melbourne, and £60,000 received as interest, being also available, the amount of £400,000 was placed on fixed deposit with the Treasurer of New South Wales, the rate of interest being 3^ per cent, per annum. It being desirable that the position of the Notes Fund should be strengthened as far as possible by the frequent maturing of investments, it was arranged that the £400,000 should be repaid in instalments of ,£100,000 - the first instalment in July, 1913, and subsequent instalments at intervals of one month. In all, the Treasury has invested out of the Notes Fund the amount of .£5,685,000, and the annual amount of interest at present being earned is £199,300. The interest earned by the notes investments is credited to the Australian Notes Account, so that the Notes Fund is accumulating by compound interest. Up to the 29th July, the Treasury had received interest amounting to £188,594, and the expenses amounted to ,£31,714, leaving ^£156,880 as the net addition to the notes account. On Monday last, the circulation was £9,389,599, and the gold held in the Treasury against that circulation was £3,842,663, being 40.92 per cent, of the circulation, and 15.92 per cent, more than the legal reserve. An expert steel plate note printer has been appointed, and will leave London for Australia in a day or two. The intention is that not only will the notes be printed in Australia, but that the working plates will be made here. The expert now being imported will train others, and it is hoped that in future it will always be possible to find men in Australia who can do the work. At present, the Treasury is earning interest on £7»4o8,577, being £5,685,000 on account of the Notes Fund, and £I>723,577 on account of General Trust Funds. The total annual amount of interest is £252,124. In addition, there are considerable funds in London which the High Commissioner lends to market. These investments are usually made, for a. few days, or a few weeks at a time, and thus the unemployed balance in London is kept low. The repayment of the loans is guaranteed by the Bank of England, which receives a commission on the interest earned. The Commonwealth revenue benefited last year by the amount of £18,251 interest earned in London. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Who pays the interest ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The borrowers. {: .speaker-KNI} ##### Mr Harper: -- Where is the £1,723,577 that is earning interest on account of General Trust Funds? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Some of it is in Australia, and some in London. Whenever we have a balance in London, we ask the High Commissioner to put it out at short dates, so that it may earn something for us. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- The Government have gone into the money-lending business then. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- We seem to be the only Government that has money to lend. The honorable member for Mernda has said that I ought not to lend to the States, because, by so doing, their position in regard to the transfer of debts is strengthened. {: .speaker-KNI} ##### Mr Harper: -- I made that criticism last year, and referred to it this year. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I admit that the States are very difficult to deal with in this matter, though I think they are entirely in the wrong. However, that is not the point. We are one people, and I am sure that an appeal to the electors will bring about a settlement on proper lines. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- The £5,685,000 belonging to the Notes Fund, which the Treasurer says he has lent, he owes to those who have paid gold for notes. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The gold was brought to us voluntarily. I have no time to go into by-ways, but I am willing to admit all the facts. We desire that full publicity shall be given to them. I am indebted to the State Premiers for the following information as to State railways open for traffic, under construction, and authorized by Parliament : - The Commonwealth Government has now agreed with the two States - South Australia and Western Australia - as to the Crown lands to be granted for the purpose of the railway, although a formal agreement has not yet been signed. A deviation is proceeding which will have the effect of shortening the line at the Kalgoorlie end, and, if successful, will have the effect of bringing the depot for materials closer in to Kalgoorlie than if situated at Kurramia. It is expected that this matter will be determined in the course of a few days. In South Australia, at the Port Augusta end, steps are being taken to acquire the private land required within the township of Port Augusta, and a number of from 50 to 100 men will shortly be employed on the earthworks. Arrangements are being made for rails and sleepers for temporary purposes at each end of the line, and tenders have been received for rails and sleepers for the main line. As soon as a sufficient quantity of these rails and sleepers has been delivered, a start will be made to push on with the earthworks and permanent way. The money required for trie present financial year is estimated to be £1,000,000. The Government has arranged, after consultation with the Government of South Australia, to have the first sod of the railway turned on Saturday, 14th September next. In order to grant financial assistance to the State of Tasmania, it is my intention to introduce a Bill for a grant of £500,000. It is proposed to pay this amount in instalments during ten years, the amount paid diminishing each year. The first instalment of £95,000 is provided for in these Estimates. I am afraid that the technical details of a Budget statement must be rather wearying to honorable members, but there are one or two more matters to which I think I ought to refer. The first of these is an entirely non-party proposal, and one that has already had the concurrence of this Parliament. I allude to the pending visit to Australia of the British Association for the Advancement of Science. Honorable members will recollect that nearly two years ago the Government received a hint that if the British Association for the Advancement of Science, which was then about to meet, were invited to hold a session in Australia such an invitation would probably be accepted. Parliament agreed unanimously that the invitation should be extended; it was sent, and was at once accepted. We invited the Association to meet here in 19 13, but it was found that it could not visit Australia until 19 14. Since then the estimated number of members who would probably avail themselves of the opportunity to visit this great Dominion has considerably increased, and that will mean an increase in the amount which it was proposed to place on the Estimates to meet the expenditure involved. {: .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr Deakin: -- Hear, hear. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The fact that an Increased number of members of the Association have signified their intention of accepting that invitation is an undoubted compliment to Australia, and, the Government feel it will be their duty, or the duty of whatever Government may be in power at the time, to see that they are hospitably received, and that they shall be at no expense in visiting the Commonwealth. It is the usual custom, when this distinguished body proposes to visit any country, for a representative of that country to be sent over to England some twelve or eighteen months in advance in order to get into touch with those who will compose thedelegation. We propose to follow that practice, and to provide for the expenditure involved in sending over a representative pending the larger expenditure that will be necessary when the Association sits in Australia. The financial, industrial, and commercial development of the Commonwealth since Federation must have been watched with considerable interest by honorable members. The progress that has been made is astounding even to those who are most intimately acquainted with the subject, and it raises the question whether any of the public men of Australia have been over-confident in their anticipations regarding the advancement of the Commonwealth in these respects. We are sometimes inclined to be pessimistic, and in bad times we hear a great deal of the misfortunes of the country, but I think that all the evidence now before us indicates a continuance of progress and prosperity equal to that which we have hitherto experienced in Australia. In speaking thus, I have in mind not the prosperity of this year or last year, but the average. The establishment of Federation, leading as it did to the breaking down of artificial barriers between the States has helped materially, in my opinion, to bring about the increased prosperity that we are now enjoying. It has resulted in greater freedom, and an increase in the flow of trade and commerce between the States. To begin with, it removed the barrier of the Tariffs, and the abolition of Inter- State certificates later on caused trade between the States to flow even more freely than before. There yet remain, however, barriers that must be removed. To my mind, the provision of the Constitution in regard to absolute freedom of trade and intercourse beween the States is not being literally observed. I am afraid that laws passed by one State Parliament and not by another are used sometimes to retard trade between the States rather than to achieve the object for which they are ostensibly placed on the statute-book. The diversity of our railway gauges is a barrier to development that ought not to continue for many years to come. Difficulty has also arisen between the States in regard to the use of navigable rivers. It appears to me that there is only one authority in Australia that can deal effectively with that question, and that authority is the Parliament of the Commonwealth. In that connexion, it is well for us to seriously consider whether the. time has not arrived, if, indeed, it is not already overdue, when the Inter State Commission, for which the Constitution provides, should' be brought into existence. That is a body with powers of direction and advice that ought to have a most beneficial influence. I have always regarded the InterState Commission as one of those bodies that ought to have been brought into existence in the early days of the Commonwealth. Those who were in the first Parliament will remember that a Bill to provide for the creation of the Commission was brought before this House. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- We brought it in, but it was not passed. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Quite so, I considered at the time that it was one of the. first measures that we should pass, but many of my, colleagues did not share that view. I have seen no reason to alter my opinion regarding the creation of the Commission, and I feel that Australia has suffered a great loss- in consequence of the delay that has already, taken place, in its. appointment. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- Has the Prime Minister any information to put before the House as to the distribution of wealth in Australia? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Unfortunately, as. the honorable member knows, our statistics, valuable as they are, are not complete. In the Commonwealth Statistician we have a first-class man, but in the matter of statistical information we are still behind other countries. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- Information asto the distribution of wealth is very im:portant {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It- is, but I believe that so far as the supply of statistical information is concerned our position is better than it was ten years ago. Honorable members will be pleased to know that on behalf of the Government I communicated, at first privately, with General Botha, Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa, informing him that the Australian Fleet Unit would probably be sailing for Australia early next year, and stating that . if the Government and people of the Union would care to see it, and to extend to it any little hospitality, we would be glad to direct that it should come out round the Cape. I have received a reply that the Government of South- Africa will be. delighted to receive the Fleet, and to extend to- the officers and men of the Fleet all the hospitality that our youngest kinsmen . are able to give. We are, therefore, in the happy position of knowing that the Australian Fleet Unit will receive its first welcome after leaving the- Old Country* from our kinsmen of the Union of South Africa. Mri Joseph Cook. - Shall we be in that, entertainment ? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- In spirit. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I .am glad to have thehonorable member's" interrogation. I believe, it would be a good thing for the tax-, payers of Australia if every member of., the Commonwealth Parliament, shortly . after his election," could be sent off to othercountries could be compelled to go and* view the work of other lands. The remark made by the honorable gentleman I am;,sure: will , not .be lost sight of by our- kinsmen oversea, but I do not undertake tei-, suggest, that their hospitality should be, extended to an Australian delegation tomeet the ships. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- The Prime Minister- might , induce. General Botha to come with, the Fleet to Australia. . {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- When I had the honour of representing the Commonwealth at the opening, of the Union Parliament, I was, treated with every courtesy and kindness, both by the people and Government, and. before leaving, I extended on behalf of the Government and the people of Australia, a hearty invitation -to General Botha-, and all or any of his Ministers to. visit' > the Commonwealth, either then. or at any, other time. General Botha promised ;me. that he would, and I understand that ore one occasion , he had actually made up: his mind to come, but that, because of health considerations, he ultimately found it impossible to do so. I trust that before long he will be able, to visit Australia. If, as-, the honorable member for Kooyong has-' suggested, we could induce him. to . comehere on one of the vessels of the Australian. Fleet Unit, I am sure we should all bedelighted to have the opportunity to return* that kindness, hospitality, and courtesy which he has indicated his intention of" extending to the officers and men , of our . ships. Reciprocity with New Zealand and . Canada is another, matter that need not be- . made a party question. {: .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr Deakin: -- Hear, hear. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- For. some . time. I havebeen, communicating privately and, infor,mally with- leading men in New Zealand,.'. and latterly I have made official representations to them in regard to reciprocal relations between Australia and the Dominion. As honorable members are aware, a resolution was publicly passed inviting New Zealand to take their part and lot with 'Us, but my representations have not been in regard to that broad general proposal. I am hopeful that in a very short time, the Governments of the two countries will reciprocate, at least so far as the treatment of old-age pensioners is concerned. New Zealand and Australia have practically in force the same old-age pensions law, and I think it is an anomaly that a man born in New Zealand and coming to Australia, or *vice versa,* should be denied a pension merely because he has not spent a certain number of years in the one country. I believe that reciprocity in that regard will be arrived at at an early date. I am also hopeful of a much broader scheme of reciprocity on trade lines being adopted. I hold the view that there is no limit to the reciprocity that should exist between the Commonwealth and New Zealand. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- What about reciprocity with Canada? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- We also communicated with the Government of Canada, and an invitation was extended to **Mr. Foster,** the Minister of Finance, to visit Australia. He intended to have reached here before now, in order to personally conduct negotiations, but he has been appointed a member of the Empire Trade Commission. He has, however, promised to come out here and discuss the matter with the Minister of Trade and Customs. {: .speaker-KNI} ##### Mr Harper: -- That is early next year? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Yes ; that is when he intends to be here ; and it is the best arrangement we can make at the present time with Canada. I bring my remarks to a close by reminding honorable members that recently we had amongst us a very distinguished statesman and diplomatist in the person of the Right Hon. James Bryce, who represents the British Government at Washington. At one of the public entertainments which that gentleman had to - shall I say in all kindness? - endure, he said that the Mother Country, in dealing with the Dominions, always had it in her mind to take 'them by the hand and protect them until the 'time arrived when it was felt that they were strong enough to walk alone, mind their own business, and protect themselves. That delightful simile is true in fact; but circumstances have arisen in recent years that are no less remarkable. Although still allied to the Mother Country, the Dominions were permitted to manage their own affairs in the way they thought fit ; and some five years ago, when the Leader of the Opposition, as Prime Minister, attended the Imperial Conference, the further suggestion was made that the Dominions should be' associated with the Mother Country as equals. Each Dominion was still to continue to manage its affairs in its own way, but the smallest was to be regarded as on an equality with other parts of the Empire, with the same rights as those claimed by the Mother Country. That suggestion has been embodied in the constitution of the Imperial Conference ; and it is a relationship not only unknown, but likely to remain unknown, to any other system of government in the world. The- breadth of that proposal and determination knows no bounds; and where it will lead no one can tell. It is one of the wonders of the world. Perfect confidence in the Mother Country has begotten perfect confidence in the Dominions ; and t believe that the attachment, at the present time, of the various Possessions to the Old Country is much stronger for that freedom and equality than it otherwise would have been. While we live apart and work apart in the management of our own local affairs, we are prepared to be associated in protecting our respective Dominions throughout the world. Whatever may be' said of other countries and their systems of government, there is no country with ' greater freedom than our own in the management of its affairs, unmolested or unhampered by any suggestion of coercion. We are glad as a Government to have been associated with the establishment of the Australian Navy, owned, manned, and controlled by the Australian people and the Australian Parliament, and, at the same' time, glad to be associated with the Mother Country in all that concerns her welfare, and in her protection, if necessary, against the aggression of foreign foes. I move - >That the first item "of the Estimates, .under division 1, "The Parliament," namely, "The President, £1,100," be agreed to. {: #subdebate-17-0-s1 .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat .- I am obliged to the Prime Minister for supplying me, in advance, this afternoon with a :copy of the figures he proposed to quote. A simple examination of them at once suggests that, in order to deal with such a mass of departmental data, giving them the consideration which is their due, and in their due proportion, would be impossible, on the spur of the moment. Under the circumstances, therefore, I do not propose to detain the Committee, except to congratulate the Prime Minister on the fulness of his statement, and, in particular, on his recognition of the great possibilities involved in the establishment of the Inter-State Commission. Even if endowed with no fresh powers other than those already sanctioned by the Constitution, its establishment means an enormous advance. As such, it has been constantly pleaded for in this Parliament. I had the honour of assisting to frame and introduce a measure for the establishment of the Inter-State Commission three years ago ; and since then, on each occasion and on each Budget, I have ventured to . press the matter on the attention of the Prime Minister and his colleagues. I have not, however, been very successful. In 1910 I do not think I was fortunate enough to obtain any reply; and in 191 1 the Prime Minister was even less encouraging, for he then said that the appointment of an InterState Commission ' ' is not a question of that urgency to call for serious comment." In my opinion, the appointment of an InterState Commission had deserved serious comment for a long period prior to that date. Still I felt sure that no Prime Minister of this country in touch with the great national issues within Australia affected by the Commission could fail to recognise the invaluable opportunities affored. Under the circumstances, no one is more gratified than I am that, brought face to face with a number of the greatest of Federal problems - problems of the internal government and development of Australia - at last the Prime Minister and his colleagues have found that in the Inter-State Commission we possess several invaluable keys to some of the barred doors to expansion and organization we desire to open. I now suggest that progress be reported, with a view to resuming the discussion at an early date, when we may be able to do more justice to the issues involved in this Budget. {:#subdebate-17-1} #### Ordered - >That the further consideration of the Budget be postponed' until after the Supply Bill is dealt with. {: .page-start } page 1588 {:#debate-18} ### SUPPLY BILL (No. 2) Commonwealth Woollen Mills. - Postal Facilities at Railway Stations. - Free Railway Carriage of Cadets. - Public Service : Temporary Employes. - Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway. - Tasmanian Timbers. - Prosecution of Cadets. - Payment for Rifle Ranges. - Travelling Allowances of Ministers. - Overtime Payment in Public Departments. - Imperial Federation. - Uniforms for Rifle Clubs. - Minister of Defence. - Commonwealth Savings Bank Regulations. - Commonwealth Vessels in Papuan Service. - Advertising Resources of Commonwealth. - Immigration. - Liverpool Manoeuvre Area. - Commonwealth Harness Factory. - Sydney Quarantine Station Employes. - Thursday Island Quarantine Station. - Map of Australia. - Sydney Post Office Accounts Branch. - Empire Trade Commission. - Delay in Erecting Telephone Lines. *In Committee of Supply:* {: #debate-18-s0 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- I move - >That a sum not exceeding£1,503,574 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year ending 30th June, 1913- This supply is for two months. {: #debate-18-s1 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan -- I am not at all opposed to granting the Supply asked for, because I know very well that the Treasurer must have the money. All I have to say is that the treatment I am extending to him is not the treatment he exended towards myself and the Government in which I was Treasurer. I cannot understand how it is that people change so much when they became members of the Government. In Opposition, the Prime Minister would talk for an hour about the enormity of granting two months' Supply, when one month's Supply, in his opinion, was sufficient ; and we had to carry our proposals at the point of the bayonet. I propose to deal very differently with the Prime Minister, recognising that it is unnecessary, as it is irksome, to have to ask so often for Supply. We have grievance day, in which we can discuss any topics we desire ; and, therefore, I am very glad to consent to this proposal for two months' Supply. **Mr. FISHER** (Wide Bay- Prime Min my appreciation of the action of the honor able member for Swan, and compliment him on the remarks he has made. I was delighted, in my examination of past Budgets, to discover a remark of the honorable gentleman that, while the past is very interesting, the future is still more so. Question resolved in the affirmative. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted. *In Committee of Ways and Means:* Motion (by **Mr. Fisher)** proposed - >That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the services of the year ending 30th June, 1913, a sum not exceeding £1 ,503,574 be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund. {: #debate-18-s2 .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS:
Cook -- I should like to know from the Prime Minister whether, in passing this Supply Bill, we are committing ourselves to matters pf policy, for instance, to the establishment of the Federal Woollen Mills at Geelong? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- No. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Am I to understand that this Supply Bill is merely to meet the current expenditure on the Public Services ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Yes; and the expenditure is based on the old Estimates. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I hope that we shall have an early opportunity to deal with the general Estimates, and of completing their consideration. It is highly undesirable that their consideration should be held over until after all the money is spent, and then rushed through at breakneck speed in the closing hours of the session. {: #debate-18-s3 .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Fawkner .- - 1 wish to bring before the Prime Minister and the Committee the question of temporary clerks, which concerns every Department. I think I see, perhaps, more of the distress caused by the practice of temporary employment than many other honorable members do, although I dare say a great many members on both sides of the House have these cases of distress continually brought before them. According to the present law, any man employed as a temporary hand has to be discharged after six months of employment, to make room for some other man who may be out of work. I think that is an unnecessarily cruel procedure. When 'a man has been employed for six "months, he is just beginning to know his work. While working, he has no time to look about and secure employment from any other employer, but at the end of the six months he is again thrown on the world. I am one of those who desire to see permanent employment, both in public and private service, and I think this House, and the people generally, ought to set their faces against the practice of casual employment. There is nothing so deteriorating to character as continual shifting from job to job. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- It spoils a man for anything definite. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- The honorable member is perfectly right. Men become unsettled, and are apt to become waifs and strays in the community. As a rule, the departmental head has to employ a number of men for six months or so, and just as they are becoming useful he has to throw them out and employ others. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Do not you know the reason of that ? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I know the reason. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- It is not a good one, though. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The practice was provided for when the right honorable member was in the Ministry. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- It is a good one to the extent that no one gets a monopoly of the work; every one gets a fair go. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I do not agree with the honorable member for Maranoa at all. If he goes deeply into the question, he will find that the cruelty inflicted by throwing men out greatly outweighs the small amount of good that is done by putting other people on- for another six months. These civil servants, as they practically are, constitute a very big body of people. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Why do not the Government bring the staffs up to their proper limits? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I think it would be a very good idea to do so by putting these casual hands on permanently* 1 think that some of them have been working as much as two years in a Department. To keep the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads is a gross hardship. I hope the Prime Minister will have a really good look into the case of these suffering people, who' comprise both men and women. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- How are they kept on for more than six months? You said just now that some of them were kept on tor two years. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I do not know how it is done. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- They become exempt officers. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- It is not fair to those who are registered, and want employment. The Act is being evaded- in- that way.- {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- If the honorable member looks closely into the matter, I think. he will find that really it is always the same men time after time. Instead of remaining in one groove, and acquiring facility in one special sort of work, they apply for six months' employment in, say, the Post Office, and after that, they get on temporarily, perhaps, in the Stamp Office. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Not in the Commonwealth service, surely? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I assure the honorable member I see it every day. I know these men to be splendid men, and I have to go round the various Departments, find out where temporary hands are wanted, and get them put on the list, and, if possible, put on. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Is that what you do? 1 am glad that you told me. I shall be able to do the same now. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- What about partisan appointments now? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- If I know these men are deserving, I go and see the head of a Department. If I know there are a lot of hands required, I say, " I know soandso is a good man," and the head of the Department says, " He must take his place on the list." The departmental heads are above suspicion in that regard, and I have always said so. I should never try to influence them in any way. All I can say is that a particular man, whom I know, has been thrown out of a Department, is a deserving character; and then he is put on the list in the ordinary way, and has to wait his turn to be taken on. Why cannot we have a proper regulation of this matter, so that these poor suffering people can really take 'their places as, what I might call, permanent casuals? {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Some of them were permanent casuals for twenty years before Federation in New South Wales. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- Then why should they have this uncertainty continually hanging over them? {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Do you believe in making 4them permanent without their going through the proper examination? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- Yes, I .think so, for.that particular class, where they do the work well; but, of course, it would.be a very low class in the Public Service. **Mr.- Thomas.** - Where they are .appointed through a member of Parliament going round "barracking" for -..them, as the honorable -.member, has. admitted doing? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I have done nothing of the kind. I told these men where I thought they could get a job. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Is it fair that a member of Parliament should1 go and get a man work, while the poor beggar who has no influence cannot obtain a job at all ? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I do not think it is; but what would the honorable member for Maranoa do if. a man came to him? {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- I could do nothing, because the Public Service Commissioner will -not look at me as he does you. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- Then the honorable member would let the man starve? I do not. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- No; I put my hand in my pocket, and give him something - as you often do. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- Apart from that, if I know where a Government Department wants hands, I tell the man where to go, and how to get on. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- That is more than I can do. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I have never been able to get them put on. They do say that the Labour members get more men put on than do other members. The Minister of External Affairs knows perfectly well what is said all round the place. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The honorable member has admitted that he goes round the Departments. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I do not think there is any favoritism shown, or that any Labour member or any member on this side can get any man put on ahead of his turn. I do not think there is the slightest favoritism. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- That is going too far. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I do not believe that it is so in any of the Departments. If that sort of thing was done, it would be Tammany Hall work, and I should set my face against it. I object to a man being "shot" out into the street after six months' employment in order to put another person in his place. It is not as if -there were a -great number of unemployed here at present. If we could only. organize our industries properly, I think we should have work enough for everybody. We ought to set to work to .devise a way to stop- this casual employment. The- suggestions, that have. been. made to me are that the. Public Service *Act* ^should be. amended in : order to provide .for a special, division, .or divisions ; of temporary . clerical officers, i and that sub-sections 2 and 3 of section 40 be ^repealed. Section 40 provides that when any temporary clerk has worked for six months he must go out. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Why not give the same privilege to any youngster who enters the Service? Why not, after he has worked for six months, give him the option without an examination ? {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- I certainly should, if the head of his Department considered Vhim fit. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- There must be some examination. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- If he did his work well, I should not have much of an examination. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- You would not take a man on as a shearer unless he could shear sheep. If he tomahawked your sheep, you would soon tell him to " Hang up." {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr FAIRBAIRN: -- When a shearer comes along I do not give instructions to *have him examined in geography or literature. I want to know whether he can shear a sheep. If the Postal Department want a man to put wires on telegraph poles, it is not necessary to examine him in the dead languages. I should not object to a little -examination, but I strongly object to the putting of fantastic questions. I know "there are kind hearts on the Government side of the House as well as on this, and I want honorable members to look into this matter carefully, because a great wrong is -done on many occasions by these men and women being "shot" out of their employment practically to put others in to Vbecome casuals, and be " shot " out in their turn. I hope the Committee will give me a helping hand to do justice to these people. {: #debate-18-s4 .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE:
Maranoa .- When the Public Service Bill was going through this House nine or ten years ago, members on both sides of the House supported the provision regarding casual employment. At "that time we were split up into four or five factions, and not divided into an Opposition and a Government side, as we are now. If there are- so many temporary employes continually employed, as the honorable imember for Fawkner -has told us, there anust be something rotten : in the state -of Denmark. At the time the Public Service Bill was. going through, I said the same as am going to say now. I saw a-man"with «a beard down to "his waist delivering telejgrams. He was-'thir,ty-seven years of 'age,had a family of 'five children, and was !receiving a wage of ^£70 a year. -TKat was here in marvellous Victoria. He had been for several years an employe" of the "Postal Department under the State *regime,* and he had not a permanent position. That was one of the principal reasons why 1 "wanted to do away 'With temporary employment. That man was, to all intents and purposes, a permanent employ6 of the Postal Department of Victoria, yet his position was only rated as temporary. I have always held the opinion that men should not be given employment in the Public Service because of the political or other influence that they can bring to bear, and I have always acted on that principle. Parliament in passing the Public Service Act provided that every applicant for employment in the Public Service should get a square go. Formerly it used to be the man who had influence who got wbrk, either permanent or temporary; the poor beggar without it was left to starve for his natural life if he could not get private employment ; there was no six-month, or ninemonth term in the Service for him. It seems to me that there is something rotten in the administration of the Act if there are now so many permanent casuals, as the honorable member for Fawkner termed them. These men, if they are wanted, should be made permanent' employes. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The Treasurer has stated that. 1,700 new appointments are to be made. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- Australia is a progressive country, and if there are so many casuals in the Service as has been represented, another 1,700 permanent appointments will have to be made. I do not believe in casual appointments. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I have made full provision for the Post Office for this year. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- Then I am satisfied that something is going to be done to rectify the evil complained of. I would like to know from the honorable member for Fawkner if he thinks that men should be allowed to enter the Public Service without passing an examination. When young fellows have sacrificed some years of their lives in study preparatory to examination, their chances of employment should not be taken away through the flooding of - the Service with men who have not been called on to pass an examination. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- It would disorganize' Our system. Mr.PAGE. - Yes. There- ; was too-much " political ^patronage in the bid days. . {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- If the examination were done away with, every one would be following the example of the honorable member for Fawkner. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- He said that he went to the Department only to inquire, and I do not blame him. An election is approaching, and probably a good many temporary hands live in his division. Like every one else, the honorable member is trying to , make his little marble good. . The entrance examination to ttie Public Service is open to all. , {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr Fairbairn: -- There is an age limiteighteen years. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- I am not as good a man now physically as I was when eighteen years of age, and should not have, the same right to present myself for entrance to the Public Service as a young man who could give his life to the service of the country. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The age-limit does not apply to employes in the General Division. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- A navvy does not want education- - all he wants is Scotch navigation. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- What is that? {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE: -- Main strength and pigheadedness. Any one who is broad enough between the eyes can do pick and shovel work, and can get it to do when he can get nothing else. I agree with the honorable member for Fawkner that men applying for appointments as line repairers, or for positions of that kind should not be subjected to a clerical examination. There are many men in the Service in Queensland who are experts at their particular work, but who could not pass a simple examination in the first four rules of arithmetic. For employment in the General Division the test of qualification should be a practical examination. Those applying for promotion as gangers or foremen should have to pass some sort of clerical examination. Mr.HOWE (Dalley) [6.17].- I am sorry to have to part company with the honorable member for Maranoa and take sides with the honorable member for Fawkner, but on this question I must do so. I hold that, in the main, it is desirable that we should obtain for the Public Service the best men available, and should insist upon them proving their general capacity, education, and . intelligence by passing examinations; but the practice of appointing men temporarily and retaining their services for long periods, and then dismissing them to make room for others who will have learn the work which they have shown, themselves competent to do, is a wrong, one. In the Land Tax Department's Sydney office, and, I presume, in its other offices, a number of temporary men hayebeen employed. In Sydney, nearly fifty, men were taken on over eighteen monthsago as temporary hands.' To comply wi thine provisions of the Public Service Act, they were first engaged for a term ' of six. months, and their engagement has been extended by periods of three months, but now, [having borne the heat and burden pf the day, having got the Department infoworking order, they are confronted with therisk of being' turned adriftj so that theus places may be filled by younger men, who, although they have passed the Public Service examination, will have to be trained! before they become competent to do the work of those . displaced. That is not *a>* desirable state of things. The differencebetween a permanent and temporary employe" seems to be lhat one has his appointment gazetted, and the other is liable todismissal whenever his services are no. longer required. In this case, the men who. are doing the work of the Department are competent, and their services are required. The Department does not wish to dispense, with them, but the- Act says that they must be replaced by juniors who have passed the Public Service examination. I think that where men have been employed for months, and have done good work, their services should be retained, in justice to themselves and in the public interest. It is. more economical to retain them than toemploy juniors who would have to Detrained, and whose training would mean expense and inefficient service for a time at least. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- Does the honorable: member suggest that the temporary handsshould be given permanent positions without being called upon to pass an examination? {: #debate-18-s5 .speaker-KHU} ##### Mr HOWE:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES -- They were chosen. for thework which they are doing without being, called upon to show their fitness by passing an examination, and for over eighteenmonths they have given every satisfaction-, proving theii thoiough efficiency. Juniors, could not . do the work as well. Under these circumstances, there should be . an. amendment of the Act, or some other stepshould be taken, to provide. for the. reterir tion of capable men whose services areneeded. ...1.. {: #debate-18-s6 .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER:
Echuca .- I wish to refer to the determination of the Postal Department to charge late-letter fees upon all letters posted in the railway receiving letter-boxes. This has caused a good deal of complaint in the country towns of Victoria. I understand that the departmental justification for the change is that in the other States it has always been the practice to charge late-letter fees on letters posted at railway stations. In Victoria, such letters have always been charged the same rates as letters posted in the ordinary receiving boxes at the post offices and elsewhere. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- Why should not Victoria fall into line with the other States? {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I believe in uniformity in this regard, but it should be obtained by bringing the other States into the position which Victoria has occupied. The system that has prevailed so long in this State has created a usage, and the abolition of that usage in this summary way is unfair to the public, as it gives rise to grave business difficulties in many country centres. I have it on good authority that the Postal Department is making inquiry in various towns as to the merits of the case ; but I do not think that any departmental inquiry will result in the restoration of the system. It is a matter which the Minister himself will have to take into consideration and to deal with on broad, general lines. The Postal Department should be conducted for the public convenience, and in the best interests of the people. Let me show how the system works. In many country towns, distant 100 or 250 miles from the capital of the State, the mails are delivered from 1 to 3 o'clock in the afternoon. The train which has brought up those mails makes the return journey, possibly, within an hour of the time of delivery, and those who have received letters by the afternoon mail have not time to reply by return post, if they have to post their letters at the local postoffice. If they are allowed, as they have been for years, to post them at railway stations without being required to pay a lateletter fee, they can reply by return post; and from the point of view of the business man the matter is of considerable importance. It may be said that the late-letter fee is not a big penalty.; but it aggregates a large sum. I urge the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Postmaster-General, to take- this matter into consideration, and to see whether it is not possible .to bring the system prevailing in the other States into line with that which has hitherto prevailed in Victoria, and has proved a convenience to all sections of the community. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I shall bring the matter under the notice of the Postmaster-General. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I thank the right honorable gentleman. I come now to a matter relating to the Defence Department. I understand that that Department has requested the various Railway Departments of the States to carry, free of charge, cadets who are required to travel by rail, in order to attend drill. I do not think that is a fair proposition to put before the States. Every Department should carry its own obligations. One Department should not go begging charity from another. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- Why should not the Statesassist the Commonwealth in providing for the defence of Australia? Every State is a part of Australia. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- Of course it is ; but, as a matter of business propriety, the Defence Department should approach the State Railways Commissioners, or other controlling powers, with a view of arranging some equitable scheme, under which cadets would be franked, and the parents would not be called upon to foot their railway travelling bill. We all desire that families shall multiply, ,but, under our compulsory defence system, many lads have to travel some distance to drill ; and a man with four or five sons is called upon, in this connexion, to bear a fairly heavy expenditure which he ought not to be required to meet. The sooner we can ameliorate that state of affairs the better. We ought certainly to urge upon the Defence Department the desirability of making some arrangement in this direction. It is a large spending Department. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The Defence Estimates exceed £5,000,000. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- Quite so ; but that fact does not alter the merits of this case. The State Governments control important Departments, and it is illogical that we should ask them to do our work for nothing. After all, it is simply a matter of financial arrangement. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to* 7.45 *p.m.* {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I wish now to refer to the prosecution of cadets, and the heavy fines that have been -imposed in the Foots? cray Police Court. .. One lad was fined £15, seven were fined £10 each, one was fined £5, while another entered a defence and escaped a penalty. I.direct special attention to the last-named case, because there are yet fiom 250 to 300 prosecutions to be dealt with by the Court, and the presiding police magistrate, having had his attention drawn to the fact that at the present rate ' of procedure it would take an inordinate time to deal with them, has decided to hear fifty at the next sitting of the Court. It appears to me that if the" convenience of the Court- alone is to be consulted, an injustice may be done to lads having a good defence to enter. Such an arrangement is not fair to lads whose cases have yet to be dealt with, and who, if time permitted, might be able to show a good defence. {: .speaker-K9R} ##### Mr W J JOHNSON:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- What would the honorable member do with them ? {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I would give them that justice which every- 'Britisher is supposed to Jiave in a Court of law. The matter seems to me to be of considerable importance, in view of the heavy fines that are being imposed. The compulsory training system is as yet in its inception, and the imposition of these heavy penalties is not calculated to stimulate the military ardour of the lad's or the enthusiasm of their parents for the system. I have now to bring before the Committee a matter which has come under my notice in connexion with certain rifle ranges and butts in my own electorate. Although a vote is passed for the erection of butts and rifle ranges, the Department adopts the unbusiness-like system of refusing to pay for such work until the receipted accounts have been sent in to it. The effect of this system is that some local individual, who ought to be under no obligation to pay, has to put his hands into his Dockets and provide the money, so that receipted accounts for the work may be presented to the Department by the rifle club concerned. I know of one case in which a man who was not very well able to spare the money had to settle up an account himself in order that a receipt might be sent into the Department and the money for the work obtained. A better business system ought to be adopted. The only other matter to which I desire to refer has reference to : the travelling allowances of Ministers. It will be' within the recollection of honorable members that, almost in the closing hours of last session, ithe Prime Minister announced that it was the intention of Ministers to fix upon a travelling allowance of -40s. per day in respect of the Prime Minister himself, and 35s.' per day in the case of other salaried Ministers, when travelling. upon public business. -There should1 'be no-difficulty. ; on 'the part of honorable members in ascertaining how much has been drawn in that way. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Hear, hear ! {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I was anxious to know how much had been drawn ; but in consequence of a misunderstanding between the Prime Minister and myself a motion for' a return which I had tabled was not proceeded with. I was under the impression that the required information was to be supplied. The Prime Minister' ought to lay it before honorable members. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- If the honorable member will go on with his motion he will get it all. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- The honorable member will not let him get it. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Do not talk nonsense. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I do not like to think that there is anything . wrong, but the fact that this information cannot be obtained {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The honorable member's leader has seen it all. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- I had a bird's-eye view of the return, but it was not sufficient to enable me to grasp its substance. The very fact that the information is withheld makes me more anxious to obtain it, and I shall not be satisfied until I do. It is all very well for the Prime Minister to tell me to proceed with my motion, but it is now, so to speak, only a floating motion, and it Would have to be set down for discussion so far down in the list of private members' business that there could be no reasonable expectation of its being dealt with this session. I think that the Prime Minister ought to give me a promise- {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Yes; we will give the honorable member an opportunity to bring on the motion. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- If the Prime Minister is prepared to submit the figures so that every honorable member may see them, why should he object to their production now? I am not particularly anxious to figure as moving a motion calling for such a return. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I know that. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- Will the right honorable member lay the required information on the table? Mr.Fisher. - I ask the honorable member to go on with his motion. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr PALMER: -- The days on which private members' business can be taken are so largely allocated already to '-the consideration of other matters that it is almost impossible- that I shall have an opportunity this session torgo oriiwith *my imotion. The Prime Minister declines, however, to supply the required information until the motion ihas been dealt with. I do not compliment him on his attitude ; but I shall say no more at this stage, believing that to-morrow morning, perhaps, the Prime Minister will be prepared to give us the information for which we ask. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- If the Opposition let this Hill go through, the honorable member can !go on with his motion to-night. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Very well. Mr.FENTON (Maribyrnong) [7 ..54].- The honorable member for Echuca has referred to the prosecution of cadets, and the matter is one to which I also desire to direct attention. There seems to be a considerable number of prosecutions in my electorate, and since. a Bill to amend the Defence Act : so as : to alter the conditions relating to such proceedings against cadets has already been passed by another place, I think it would be desirable to suspend such prosecutions for the time being. The military or the Police Court authorities, or perhaps both, appear to be in somewhat of a muddle in this regard. Different penalties are imposed in different Courts; but I notice that the police magistrate in the Corio district, who had a number of boys brought before him, instead of resorting to the utmost Tigour of the law, lined them up and gave them a good lecture on their duty to their country, their parents,, and themselves. Other magistrates, however, are inclined to impose the maximum penalty, and a large number of poor parents are being penalized. In one case a working man with eleven children, two or three of whom were putting in drills as well as possible, had to attend the Court in order to look after the interests of one youth who had failed to attend, and thereby had to lose a day's work. If the desire is to make the defence scheme unpopular, the Defence Department and some police magistrates are going the right way to do it. I cannot sit down quietly when hard-working innocent parents, who desire that their boys shall comply with the law as far as practicable, are fined one after the other. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- What does the honorable member suggest? {: #debate-18-s7 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I would, suggest the suspension of prosecutions now pending, until the proposed legislation is passed. Seeing that the defence scheme is in its . initial stages, I think that very lharsh measures . are being taken with the youth of the country, In one Court in Sydney, if I mistake not, a few parents the other day paid out . £156 : in fines. I do not know whether this money goes into State coffers or Commonwealth coffers, but, in any case, the police magistrates seem to be great revenue getters. I hope the Government will take my suggestion into consideration, or, otherwise, the real interests of the Defence Force may suffer. I desire to refer to the considerable discontent that is expressed in the Departments where overtime is worked, either on the ground that the payments are inadequate, or are held over from month to month. Even in the Prime Minister's Department, in the preparation of the Budget- papers, considerable overtime has been put in, and, according to all accounts, the officers have not been properly remunerated. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That overtime was absolutely necessary ; no other officers can do the work. I think that the newspaper that published the paragraph is sorry that it did so. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I am speaking of other Departments as well. {: .speaker-JPC} ##### Sir Robert Best: -- I suppose the officers get " time off." {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The officers made no complaint, though the newspaper did. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- In some branches, especially in technical branches, overtime is paid at trade union rates ; and what is done in one Department should be done generally. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Provided always that the officers do not prefer " time off." {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- If they have the option, that is all right. If they prefer the money, they should have it. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- They are only too willing. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- But the " willing horse " can be worked too much. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- There are some good officers in the Treasury. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Yes; and they faithfully and splendidly discharge their duties, and should be properly remunerated. SirJohn Forrest. - They are well looked after. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- It is some time since the right honorable member was in the Department. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- The officers are all right. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I . am sure that the right honorable member would not accept an: assurance given in that airy fashion. Turning to another matter, it seems to me that there is a consensus of opinion that we should, as far as practicable, abolish that anomaly known as the " permanent temporary hand." I know that the trouble arises from the' Public Service Act, but some years ago, in Victoria, the State Act was so amended that, when temporary officers had proved their fitness they could be selected to make up the permanent staff to its full strength. A similar provision in the Commonwealth Public Service Act would do away with a number of complaints. At present, just when a man has reached a high pitch of proficiency, he has to go and make way for another man, who, of course, has to be trained for the post. This is not only a hardship to the officers, but a serious inconvenience in many Departments ;. and it is a method of arrangement not at all satisfactory or business-like. {: #debate-18-s8 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- I noticed in yesterday's *Age* a statement made by the High Commissioner in London which is worthy, I think, of the attention of the Committee. I am one of the most earnest admirers of the great gifts of the High Commissioner, and, as a personal friend and an old party adherent, one of the first to admit his phenomenal success in the high office to which he has been called. But the statement I refer to is one which I hardly like to see go unquestioned in the National Parliament of Australia. Yesterday's cables say - >Referring to the co-ordination of the Empire's efforts, **Sir George** Reid remarked that during a long life visions of a really Imperial Parliament, with a truly Imperial executive, had crossed his imagination, but calm investigation of the facts had led him only to two practical results. The first was unbounded wonder that the Imperial system, so loose and disjointed, should work so marvellously. The second was a stubborn fear that closer bonds might lead to greater friction - We in Australia are beginning to realize, just as working men first realized, many years ago, at the initiation of the industrial union movement, that " union is strength," and that we alone are too weak to stand in the face of the teeming East. With the same spirit that prompted men in the industrial sphere to look about them for those with whom they might join for common purposes, we in Australia of recent years have begun to look to those of our flesh and blood beyond the seas for the defence of our racial purity, which is the thing mainly endangered in this great empty continent. Our Prime Minister took a first step- in. that direction at the last- Im perial Conference; and I venture to say that men of all views in this Parliament - even men who a few years ago, from, perhaps, some inherited racial prejudice, were disposed to view with jealousy the Imperial tie - are now realizing that in our common union and our common interest lies the greatest safety and the greatest heritage of. this young country. I do not say that, therefore, we should be ready to rush into Imperial partnerships loosely drawn up, badly thought out, and insufficiently reasoned; but we ought on no possible occasion to lightly throw any cold water on any proposition for union, or on the idea of union; and we ought to be very careful that our leading men do no such, thing. I feel, myself, that the matter is of such importance that I am bound, although a great personal friend and warm admirer of **Sir George** Reid, to bring this matter before Parliament. 1 notice that he went on to say - for as things are, the Dominions can, whenever they choose, take a share in the Imperial councils more powerful perhaps than any they would be entitled to in an Imperial Parliament formed on the basis of population. The fact is that chis matter, which was only within the purview of visionaries a few years ago, has come into the sphere of practical politics owing to the growth of colonial navies throughout the world. The whole scheme, system, and purpose of the Australian Navy, now costing so much pm head to the Australian people, is a unified and co-ordinated effort with the naval purposes of the Empire as a whole. What value is it after the damage is done - what value is it after the battle is over - for us to be willing to send our ships 10,000 or 12, 00c miles to take part in the fray? The whole problem, seeing that we are spending large sums on defence in Australia, and seeing that it is proposed to do the same in Canada, is how we can efficiently and reasonably combine together for our common purpose, while retaining our autonomy with regard to local affairs. I deeply regret that the High Commissioner should have appeared, if this cable does him justice, to throw cold water, not on any fixed scheme or any cut-and-dried project for Imperial federation, but on the very principle of Imperial union, on which the safety of Australia and the racial purity of Australians absolutely, in the end, depend. I should like to say a word in regard to the matter introduced by the honorable member for Echuca.- I do not de- sire in any way to interfere with the seraphic calm with which Ministers regard this subject at the present time. I do not wish to give my honorable and distinguished friend, the Minister of Home Affairs, any cause for disquietude ; but I do suggest to Ministers that, after all, the public, who have to bear the cost of these travelling allowances, are entitled to know how much has been taken in this way by His Majesty's Ministers in the Commonwealth. It is all very well for the Prime Minister to say to the honorable member, " Come on with your motion, and we shall give you a chance, and tell you what we have taken." Ministers are entitled, without being asked, to give the public the information. This question of the travelling allowances is an old one. It came up for the first time in the first Parliament, when it was decided that, in lieu of travelling allowances,. Ministers should draw the £400 a year which ordinary members were then paid. They took that £400 a year for travelling allowances, and were content with it, until the Government fell into the hands of a party the members of which believe in small salaries; and then it. was said that, in addition, it was necessay to have travelling allowances of 25s. <o £2 2s. per day. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- It is not enough. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- But my honorable friend thinks that is. a day is enough. What is this allowance for? It is not to keep Ministers. My distinguished friend, the stoic *at* the head of the Department of Home Affairs, can live on nothing when he is travelling, and make his officers live on nothing also. Why should he want a travelling allowance of 25s. a day to go round Australia ? There are a lot of things I want to understand in this connexion. It has, of course, been well worth the while of the public of Australia to let Ministers, pay themselves these large amounts to stay away from their jobs, for the actual result of these allowances has been to get all my honorably friends travelling round Australia. Consequently they went to places they had not previously seen, and which had not had the good .fortune to see them before. They instantly became experts in land values in those places - indeed, they always had some high Commonwealth mission to take them away from Melbourne. We have a right, in the. first place; to know how much they paid themselves to stay away from their jobs, and, in the second place, why Western Australia has been given so much of their services. I do not want to be unkind to my honorable friends opposite, and I always accept them at their face value, but I could not help feeling that there must be something beyond a mere high sense of public duty which led my honorable and distinguished friend in the - Home Affairs Department, and the Minister of Defence, and all the other Ministers, to travel so much to Western Australia. Do they draw their travelling allowance from the day they leave Melbourne until the day they reach Melbourne again? Surely they would be the first to inform the country that when they are on board ship it really costs them nothing, because their fares are provided for them, and everything is found for them ? Surely it is not necessary for them to be receiving 253. a day on shipboard? If it costs 25s. a day to provide soft drinks for one Minister, why should it cost £2 a day to provide them for the Prime Minister ? It is idle for the Prime Minister to adopt what might almost be called u schoolboy attitude towards the desire of the honorable member for Echuca for information. Why not give the information, to which the public is entitled, without all this parade of " Come on, and I will give it to you; do not come on, and you will not get. it " ? The public are entitled to it, and I hope the House and the public will be afforded it at the earliest opportunity. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- Give us some politics ; we have had enough of this. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- Here is a hard-working Labour member of Parliament who tells me that he has had enough of the problem of how much Ministers have been drawing by way of travelling allowance in addition to the £12,000 a year which is split up amongst the few of them, and their £400 a year as members. That is a matter which the honorable member apparently regards as of too small importance to discuss ! I wish to turn now to questions affecting rifle clubs. T recently attended a banquet where all the prominent riflemen of New South Wales were collected together, and heard some statements made with regard to the Federal administration of the Defence Department as it affected rifle clubs that would be startling to any man who was unaware of the procrastinating methods adopted by that Department on occasions. They were, however, sufficiently serious to call for early ventilation in this Chamber. One speaker said that, some time ago, the Department circularized the rifle clubs to find out how .many men were willing to undergo a short course of annual training. About 99 per cent, of the members of rifle clubs responded in the affirmative. All those responses were then put into pigeon-holes, and not a whisper has been heard of the matter since. That is one complaint which is sufficiently serious to warrant the immediate attention of this Chamber. Again, it was said that the Minister was asked in November last to send round a circular asking riflemen if they would assist in training the cadets to shoot. Those circulars also met with a ready response, but nothing has been done since. {: .speaker-JW6} ##### Mr Cann: -- The cadets have not got their rifles yet. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The cadets are undergoing musketry training, and, in some cases, they are being trained by men who do not know how to handle rifles themselves. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The honorable member might find an isolated case. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I am saying what was said at. the gathering to which I referred. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The riflemen may have been rather prejudiced. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- That may be so; but surely,- when a proposition of this kind is made to secure the assistance of the men who do understand how to handle rifles, it is the duty of a business-like Administration to utilize their energy for our general purposes. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- My impression is that the Military Board do not want to encourage the civilians at. all. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- When an office requires the constant care of any man, there ought to be a permanent man in- the job. I cannot help thinking that, in any service other than the Australian, the Intelligence Corps, perhaps potentially the most important section of an embryo Defence Department, would certainly be in the charge of permanent officers: There are other important branches of the service requiring constant work where permanent officials, might reasonably be employed, but in a case of this -kind, especially in countrydistricts; we ought to; utilize the services of the members of rifle clubs, .who would takethe keenest interest in: going, on to the range and seeing how- the boys were learning to pick up what would be their duty, but what had been- their .fathers'- hobby. I think the Defence Department is seriously/to blame in that 'respect: . Not very long ago Ministers opposite were touring the country claiming that riflemen ought to be given uniforms, but they areinclined now to hang their heads at the meremention of uniforms. If it was fair for Ministers to travel round trying to get support from riflemen on that plea, surely,, now that they have practically doubled theexpenditure of Australia, and are handling, a revenue almost twice as great as their predecessors had, they should at oncegive these men what they are really entitled to if they are to be considered part of our defence organization - and that is theuniform which will be a safeguard to prevent them from being treated as outlaws in time of war. If in war time they arecaught by an enemy with weapons in their hands and without uniforms on their backs, they will be treated as men were treated in the Franco-German war, when any mancaught without uniform and bearing a riflewas immediately hanged on the nearest 'tree. Our riflemen should be fitted into our defence organization. I think they are only too anxious to be fitted in reasonably; but Ministers should not play with the matter by talking about giving them an extra grant for ammunition, and making the' idle pretence of regarding them as one of the mainstays of our defence, whilst refusing to fit them into the defence organization of Australia. Give the riflemen their uniforms, or, at any rate, let the marksmen in therifle clubs be given the uniforms which their skill has won for them. It is very much to be regretted that theMinister of Defence should be out of this chamber now that the Defence vote is becoming so large. I dare say that . there arereasons why the Honorary Minister who represents the Minister of Defence in thischamber cannot be here this evening, and I regret his absence, but I regret still morethat the Minister of Defence is not herehimself . When the public of Australia arecontributing 23s. 9d. per head -for defence, surely the House of Representatives, thepopularlyelected assembly, has the right tohave the Minister of Defence in its midst. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- It. is not more - popular than the other . House. It is elected on - the - same franchise. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I think I have almost asmany electors in my constituency as are represented by the whole six senators from Tasmania, yet "the- honorable member for Maribymong calls that "the same franchise."'. In this Chamber .one vote has one ; value' ass a matter of strict fact, and where. large taxation is involved, as it is for defence purposes, with large expenditure of public money,, the Minister, in charge of the Department concerned ought to be in the popular assembly. It is the obvious duty of the Government to see that that safeguard is given us. We in this House are not all voting automatons. We ought to have some definite assurance before this Parliament closes that, in any arrangement of Ministries in the future, the great spending Departments will be directly represented in this. Chamber. By all means place the smaller Departments in another place; but the big spending Departments, ought to be with us, who represent the public that has to find the money. I would remind the Prime Minister that he owes a duty to himself, his Ministry, and the country, to afford the honorable member for Echuca the information regarding Ministerial travelling allowances at the earliest moment. It is of no use for the honorable gentleman to run up anddown behind the fence, barking furiously, and pretending that he is prepared to come on, when he has an open gate in front of him, and can come through and show himself outside without the slightest trouble. Nothing can be simpler, easier, or be more in the direction of his duty than that he should immediately inform the public what money has been taken by Ministers for travelling allowances. The proposal to pay such allowances to Ministers did not come before Parliament in the ordinary way. It was not submitted on the Estimates, so that it could be fully discussed. On the contrary, it came like a thief in the night, being put before us in the dying hours of the last session. If the Government will not take the public into their confidence as to how much Ministers are being paid, in addition to their salaries, for travelling round the Commonwealth, their conduct will be viewed very unfavorably. {: #debate-18-s9 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I wish to draw attention to a matter which calls for the serious consideration of the Committee. A few days ago, I pointed out to the Prime Minister that, notwithstanding that both. Houses of the Parliament definitely declined to retain in the Commonwealth Bank Bill a clause exempting the Savings Bank from liability in the event of the fraudulent withdrawal of deposits, a regulation in defiance of that determination has been inserted in the rules of the Commonwealth Savings Bank. I wish toknow what the honorable gentleman, who is Ministerial head of the Savings Bank, intends to do about the matter. It is his business to see that the will of Parliament is obeyed. He should not be a party tothe setting up of an. authority superior toParliament, nor countenance the framing of regulations in defiance of the determination of Parliament. This is a matter of serious moment to the public, and particularly to the wage-earners, who are expected" to constitute a large proportion of the depositors in the CommonwealthSavings Bank, and whom the Government have asked to intrust their savings to the bank. Among the rulesof the bank is one absolving the bank and the Government of - liability in the event of a fraudulent withdrawal of a depositor's money without his knowledge or consent. The public should know of this regulation, and the risk which it entails onthem of losing every penny they may haveput into the bank.- It 'places every depositor at the mercy of rogues and dishonest persons, who may even perhapschance to be among the bank's employe's. It is the duty of the PrimeMinister to see that the interests of the depositors are safeguarded, and that effect is given t0 the will of Parliament. There is too much going on behind the back of Parliament, and, by regulation, flouting; its decisions. We have seen it over and over again in connexion with the Tariff.. By means of departmental regulations',, duties have been imposed which Parliamenthad no intention of sanctioning, and towhich, in some cases, Parliament definitely refused to agree when they were specificallyproposed for its ratification. But by meansof regulations and the shifting of itemsfrom one class to another the will of Parliament has been flouted and its intentionignored, and duties are. by that meansbeing levied for. which specific parliamentary sanction was not obtained. Noset of officials, whatever the position- they may occupy, have the . right to assume legislative authority, and.no Minister should encourage officials in their attempts to do so. I hope that the Treasurer will take action to have the Savings Bank regulation to which 1 have referred . withdrawn. It is- probably *ultra . vires,* and' may be ruled so should a depositor beunfortunate enough- to be defrauded, and' take a case into Court. In- such a case its retention would' only make the' bank look ridiculous, and expose if to the charge of "bluff." A case was brought forward recently in connexion with the operations of another bank, which sheltered itself behind a similar rule. On a case being brought into Court, the bank tried to prove that it had contracted itself out of its liability, but it was held that the defence was not a good one, and that the bank was liable. What I emphasize chiefly, however, is that, although the clause in the original Bill was knocked out by the Senate, and the Senate's amendment was agreed to by this House, a regulation having the same effect is now among the rules of the bank. In this Chamber the Prime Minister asked us to disagree with the Senate's amendment; but, on ascertaining the opinion of honorable members was overwhelmingly hostile to its retention, he withdrew his motion, and the Senate's amendment to knock out ' the clause was unanimously agreed to. Coming now to the administration of the Department of External Affairs, I would remind the Committee that there has been a good deal of talk about the Commonwealth running steamers in competition with private enterprise, in view of which I would draw attention to the kind of vessels employed in places like Papua and Thursday Island. For this work, they have steamers like the *Merrie England,* the *John Douglas,* and a vessel recently purchased in Victoria, which is unable to go to sea. It is lamentable that the Government should use the slowest, oldest, and most out-of-date tubs to be got to do its work. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- The *Merrie England* was taken over from the Queensland Government. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It has been in the service of the Commonwealth long enough, and it is time that we got something more up to date. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- Provision is made on the Estimates for a new vessel. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I have not yet had time to study the Estimates, which have only been made available within the last two or three hours. Proposals involving the expenditure of millions of pounds are flung on the table, and honorable members are expected to "digest and discuss them at a moment's notice, without having any time even to glance at them. I have protested against this sort of thing before, but, apparently, protests are useless. You, **Mr. Chairman,** having visited the Northern Territory, will probably agree with me that a fast oil or steam launch is needed there for Customs work. A fast revenue cutter is required to enable the Collector to efficiently patrol the coast for the prevention of smuggling and other purposes, necessitating visits to rivers and parts remote from Port Darwin. The employment of casual labour in the Commonwealth service is a growing evil, which should be remedied at the earliest moment, because it is assuming such large proportions that, unless checked, it may involve us in all sorts of difficulties. I hope that something may be done to make it unnecessary to resort to casual labour. It i« time that we had a Public Works Committee and a Public Works Department, which would evolve an effective system for the carrying out of national public works. The sum of ,£4,000 is provided for in the Supply Bill to advertise the resources of the Commonwealth. {: #debate-18-s10 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The Bill is not yet before us, and the honorable member is, therefore, not at liberty to discuss its details. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Then I shall say that I know it is in the mind of the Minister to propose the spending of something like £4,000 in advertising the resources of the Commonwealth, notwithstanding that among honorable members opposite, and in the Labour party generally, there are conflicting opinions regarding immigration. Some, with their tongues in their cheeks, profess to believe that immigration is a good thing for Australia, really holding the view that the fewer immigrants that come here the better for our present population. There seems to be an element of insincerity in this much-talked-of advertising of Australia. I fear that we are expending a great deal of this money unwisely and inefficaciously. I desire to ask the Minister whether there is any truth in the frequently-reported statement in the public press that a considerable number of immigrants brought to this country take the first opportunity of returning. It is rather disquieting to think that we are spending such large sums of money to encourage im-. migration ' with a result that, on its face, does not seem to be encouraging. I come now to another matter relating to cadets which is causing a great deal of anxiety amongst the people, and which I have been requested to bring before this House. I have received the following letter from the Town Clerk of the municipality of Marrickville - > **Sir, -** At a meeting of my Council, held on Monday evening last, the matter of training boys under the Compulsory Training Act was brought before the meeting and discussed to some length, with the result that the Mayor has directed me to write you to see if some amendment of this Act can be obtained. > >He is of opinion that it is a hardship to enforce the attendance of the boys at drill during the winter months, in all weather, and that some proper place other than the streets of the municipality should be procured in which to drill. He is also of opinion that the minimum fine of ,£5 is too much, and should be lowered for the first and second offences against the Act, as he finds that it is proving to be a hardship on the poorer parents, who invariably have to find the money to pay. He therefore hopes that you will bring this matter under the notice of the Minister for Defence or before the Federal Parliament. The views expressed in this letter are held pretty generally throughout my constituency. These fines do not come out of the pockets of the boys; they have to be paid by the parents, many of whom are quite unable vo afford such a pecuniary loss. Cases have been brought under my notice in which boys left home to attend drill, but did not put in an appearance, and the first intimation which the parents received of .their absence from drill was the serving of a summons upon them. We have - most of us - been boys. Some of us were born old men, and some, perhaps, old women, so to speak, but those who were born boys will have a keen recollection of that fine air of irresponsibility that pervades the boyish nature - an air of irresponsibility which, in passing, I may say, has not yet been cast aside by honorable members sitting on the Ministerial side of the House. This is a very reasonable ground of complaint. It is certainly a great hardship that parents should be punished for the shortcomings of boys when they themselves are not always able to prevent those shortcomings. We should devise some better scheme than that under which these fines are imposed. I wish also to ask the Minister representing the Minister of Defence what is being done regarding the acquisition of the manoeuvre area lying between George's River and Liverpool? The matter has been talked of for some years, and I, in common with other honorable members, have tried in vain to obtain satisfactory information about it. It is about time that we obtained some definite information as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the acquisition of this and other necessary manoeuvre areas. There are some excellent manoeuvre areas adjacent to the Federal Capital where we may meet some day, but like areas are required in various parts of the Commonwealth; and this matter of acquiring the area between George's River and Liverpool - an area which is practically unsuitable for other purposes - should have been dealt with finally at least a couple of years ago. So far as I can ascertain, negotiations are still going on, and, apparently, there is no prospect of finality. Various complaints have also been made to me as to the appointment of officials in charge of the Commonwealth Harness Factory. Very serious allegations have been made as to these appointments, and the competency of some who have been selected for responsible positions. I shall not do more than make a passing reference to the matter at this stage, but when the Estimates are before us some members of the Opposition will certainly have something to say on the subject. I wish now to invite the attention of the Minister of Trade and Customs to a complaint made by men employed in the quarantine station, Sydney, that they are not being fairly treated in regard to the matter of wages, time off, and holidays. They complain that they have at times to work unduly long hours, and that no time off is allowed as an equivalent for the overtime that they are called upon to perform. They have often to work on Sundays, and in that case also they are not allowed time off. 1 did not seek this information; it was voluntarily furnished to me, and I ask the Minister to ascertain the facts. If he finds that there is a legitimate ground of complaint, I trust that he will see that the grievances are rectified. I should also feel obliged if he would inform the Committee what progress is being made with the erection of a wharf for the proposed quarantine station at Thursday Island, and when that station will be available for the reception of persons who may have contracted quarantinable diseases on the voyage to Australia from the East. I have now to ask the Minister of Home Affairs a question. in regard to a map of Australia. Some years ago a proposal was made by a previous Minister of Home Affairs to have prepared a map in which Australia would occupy a central position, so that its true relation to other countries would be more clearly defined than it is in the existing maps, wherein Australia, although a continent as large as the United States of America, and larger than a great portion of Europe, including the United Kingdom, is stowed away in a corner as if it were a place of no consequence, and had fallen away from some other portion of the earth. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr Agar Wynne: -- There is an item in this Bill in regard to a map. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- We have had in the Estimates a constantly recurring item in respect of the map, but we have never seen the map itself, nor have we heard what progress is being made with it. I ask the Minister to hurry up the work, and to let honorable members see the map when it is finished - if it is ever going to be completed. Are we to be constantly asked to vote sums of£25, £50, and £500 for a map that never seems to materialize? {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- There is no " hustle " in the Department of Home Affairs. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I understand that the Minister of Home Affairs prides himself as being an American hustling administrator, and it is about time that he got a "hustle" on in connexion with this matter. I desire now to refer to the evil of temporary employment which still continues in connexion with various services of the Postal Department. Time after time objection has been taken by myself and others to the system of temporary employment which is in vogue in the General Post Office at Sydney and Melbourne, as well as at other places. I refer especially to the Sydney General Post Office, however, because I have had an opportunity of seeing the disabilities under which a great deal of its work is carried on. It seems to be a ridiculous system under which men are told off from the permanent staff to instruct temporary employe's, who are brought in supposedly to cope with a temporary rush, and who cannot, under any circumstances, be employed' for more than nine months during any one year. The appointment is not supposed to exceed six months, but in certain circumstances temporary hands may obtain an extension of three months. Just at the very time that a temporary employe is becoming a useful officer - just when he has been grounded in the routine work of the Department - his services have to be dispensed with, and permanent men have to be taken from their duties to train another raw recruit. My suggestion is that vacancies on the permanent staff should be filled from time to time by drafting men from the temporary staff ; and thus we should gradually get rid of the trouble. {: #debate-18-s11 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- **Mr. Poynton-** {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- Is the honorable member trying to talk out the motion of his comrade? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not understand the interjection. {: .speaker-JW6} ##### Mr Cann: -- The honorable member for Echuca has a motion on the notice-paper. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I shall sit down *itistanter* if the Prime Minister will allow that motion now to be debated. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The Prime Minister is not present, but on his behalf I agree to the honorable member's proposal- if he will let the Bill go through at once, the motion may be proceeded with so far as the Government are concerned. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- First, let us see what other private business that course would shut out. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- This is a trick. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The Minister would not make a suggestion if it were not a trick. Before I accept the offer made, we require another undertaking from the Prime Minister - we desire to know what is to become of the other private members' business on the paper before that motion. Two and a half hours of private members' business has been forfeited to-day to suit the convenience of the Prime Minister ; and, therefore, we want to know where private members "come in." Surely the Prime Minister is not going to take up that time without giving some equivalent, either to-morrow or on some other day? {: .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr Deakin: -- That is the understanding; the only question is when. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- But that is the very essence of the contract. Will the Prime Minister lay on the table the return of Ministerial allowances? The other night he was gyrating along' the chamber with a great amount of theatrical gasconading, brandishing the return in his hand. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- What item in the schedule of the Supply Bill is the honorable member discussing? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I am discussing an item of *£16* as travelling allowance to the Honorary Minister ; and, moreover, I remind the honorable member that this is the only opportunity we have to ventilate grievances. In their wisdom, honorable members opposite have limited our time on ordinary occasions ; and we must take advantage of the few opportunities presented to ventilate legitimate grievances. It is about time that the return of Ministerial expenses was made available to the people of this country. Then the innuendoes of the Prime Minister as to what he has, speaking vulgarly, " up his sleeve," would cease. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- We wish to know what he has in his pocket. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- And he will not tell us. Honorable members opposite seem to regard this matter as one . of no importance whatever; but we on this side are anxious to have the return made public at the earliest possible moment. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Did I not just now, on behalf of the Prime Minister, offer to afford an opportunity for the motion to be dealt with ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The Minister is asking us to sacrifice private members' business. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The honorable member said he would sit down *instanter.* {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I said I would do so, but without prejudice to any of the other private members' business. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The honorable member did not say that at all ; he said he would sit clown immediately if an opportunity were given for the motion of the honorable member for Echuca to be dealt with. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I said that, so far as this Bill was concerned, I would sit down *instanter,* if the Prime Minister would allow, the motion to come on without prejudice to other private members' business. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The honorable member did not say " without prejudice to other private members' business." {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I know I did not ; but I say so now. I am not a greenhorn to fall into any trap the Minister of External Affairs may set for me. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- There was no trap ; the honorable member himself made the suggestion. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable gentleman's dialectic skill is very great, no doubt ; but he must allow us to blunder on in our own way. These expenses will be made public later on, I have no doubt ; but it would end all controversy, and save much trouble, if they were made public now. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- A question ought to be sufficient to elicit the information. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I should think so. Ministers ought to rush with information at the earliest possible moment when a question of that kind is asked - when a question relating to their own personal conduct is put. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The honorable member for Echuca will became famous over this. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not know about that ; but honorable members opposite apparently feel a grievance because the matter has been mentioned outside. Now is the time to reply to any criticism so offered ; and I invite the Government to lay the return on the table of the House. It has been said that the return has been shown to the leaders of the honorable member for Echuca ; but, as honorable members know, etiquette forbids our mentioning what we have seen lest the matter should be made public in an undesirable way. In any case, the fact that the return has been shown in this way only whets our appetite for the further publicity which would be afforded by laying the return on the table. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- Why not have the return published in *Hansard f* {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It would be published in *Hansard. °* {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- Not if it were merely put upon the table. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- If the return be put upon the table, we on this side will take good care that it goes into *Hansard.* We are prepared to accommodate Ministers in every possible way, and afford them every opportunity to vindicate their conduct. Speaking in all seriousness, the Prime Minister should stop brandishing this return about the chamber, or he should make it public by laying it on the table. The honorable gentleman's excuse the other night was that he desired a motion to be submitted so that the matter might be discussed; but he0 has all to-night to discuss the matter if he so desires, so that that excuse is gone. With regard to the cadets, there is a great deal that is amiss in their training. I sympathize with honorable members who urge lenient treatment to those who are failing in their duties owing to the novelty as yet of the whole proceeding; but, on the other hand, I am not quite sure that a wisely firm attitude is not, after all, the best in the circumstances. The sooner these boys " knuckle down " to the duty and obligation which has been laid on them, the better for themselves and for all concerned. I think, however, that a great deal could be done in the way of making the training less irksome. I have before said in this House that we shall not achieve the end we have in view if we continue on our present lines. Leniency in the matter of fines will not get over the trouble, and neither will lectures delivered by police magistrates, as suggested by the honorable member for Maribyrnong. The fact is that the area officer is not keeping in touch with the boys within his area, and is not devoting the whole of his attention to his duties. That, in my opinion, is the key to the whole trouble; and Lord Kitchener was sagacious beyond measure in the suggestions he made in this connexion. He urged that the area officer should devote the whole of his time to his duties, getting to know the boys and their families, and enlisting the sympathy of the parents, who, in turn, would assist, in carrying the scheme into effect. It is in these directions that we are going wrong, and will continue to go wrong if the system is not altered. Meantime, the Government are going along in a makeshift way, and will have to keep on imposing penalties. The Department are at present relaxing the penalties - I do not say whether that is a good or bad thing to do now - but they will not get over these troubles until they have a different system of compassing the areas, and a more systematic and thorough administration of them. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- In the meantime, do you think the boys should be punished in the way they are being punished ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not. I am suggesting a means of going to the root of the trouble. The Government are only treating symptoms in relaxing the penalties. That may be all right in its way, but it will not help them over the inherent difficulties. If the boys are to train with the spirit and vim with which they ought to train, it will be necessary to get the sympathy of the boys and of their parents also. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- When are you going to let us get on to **Mr. Palmer's** .motion? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Let the Prime Minister say that that motion will be taken at once, and. I will sit down instantly. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Did not the Minister of External Affairs say it? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- That is precisely what he will not say. If he would, I should sit down at once, so far as this Bill is concerned. I think I could promise for my friends on this side that they will put it through in five minutes if the Government will let the motion of the honorable member for Echuca come on immediately, and then provide the_ opportunity which the right honorable member for Swan wants for his motion. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- If he wants more " Chinn " he will not geC it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Honorable members opposite are playing tricks as usual. Of course, we are a lot of simpletons on this side, and are easily got over in that way. Meantime, I should like to call attention to a Post Office matter. While I deeply regret the cause of the absence of the Postmaster-General, I am sure I may address myself to the ex- PostmasterGeneral on this matter, which concerns one of his own appointments. I call his attention to the state of affairs existing in the Accounts Branch of the Sydney General Post Office. About twelve months ago, he appointed an accountant, **Mr. Triggs,** who came over from Western Australia. He was sent over to New South Wales to clear up some trouble there, and, of course, like a new broom, he wanted to sweep very clean. He instituted an entirely new system, there, the result of which is that the officers have been working overtime in that branch for twelve months, and are working till 10 o'clock every night now. That does not say much for the new order of things that has been instituted there. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Is the honorable member quite sure of that? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I am quite sure that I have been told so. That is all I can say, but surely that is sufficient for the honorable member to investigate the matter, as I hope he will. I suppose he does not want to see these men working until 10 o'clock every night, but I tell him that it is a fact. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- You say you have heard it, and cannot say it is a fact. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I can tell the Minister it is a fact that the officers are working till 10 o'clock at night now. I know that, to be a fact, and I know also that they have been working overtime for the last twelve months. Many of these men have had no leave for 1910 and 1911; they are not allowed to take leave. The Department is in a chronic state of muddle, and the officers are breaking down under the strain, yet this kind of thing is going on under the new order which was to bring about a complete remedy for the previous troubles. It seems strange to me that the only method of reform which the authorities seem able to apply in the Sydney General Post Office is to bring officers time and again from other States, and put them over the heads of competent officers. That practice is breaking down the whole spirit of the Branch there. {: .speaker-JW6} ##### Mr Cann: -- The Accounts Branch was not competent. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I think it was. All it wanted was more labour. {: .speaker-JW6} ##### Mr Cann: -- That branch was not satisfactory, was it? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is not satisfactory now. Does the honorable member know anything about it? {: .speaker-JW6} ##### Mr Cann: -- Yes, I have been there two or three times. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Then the honorable member knows that what I am saying is true. Ever since the new accountant was appointed. I believe that every office in that branch over £300 a year has *beet),* filled by an officer from some other State. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Does the accountant or the Public Service Commissioner fill them? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- That is a quibble. The Minister knows as well as I do that the Public Service Commissioner would not appoint them without referring to this responsible officer. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Decidedly; but I knowhe has appointed some against his wishes. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is to be regretted if he has, but that does not get over the trouble. The Minister seems to think that everything the Public Service Commissioner ever did is perfect. He forgets that the Commissioner is a human being like the rest of us, and likely to make as many mistakes in his way as perhaps we make in ours. Here are some of the appointments that have been made in that Department only lately. A **Mr. Campbell,** I believe, was appointed accountant first of all. He has since been superseded 'by a **Mr. Haldane.** The authorities of the Department are sending over there from the other States officers who are apparently not making a success of it, and are being withdrawn. It never seems to strike those gentlemen that they might look in the branch itself for some little modicum of reform. Their only idea is to fetch somebody else in, and put him over the heads of other men who are worked to death, and who from sheer want of help got behind in their work. I am told that, as a result of the inauguration of the new system, which is both costly and cumbersome, .the branch is no better to-day than it was. There was one appointment at £520, three at £420, and two at £310; in fact, there have been eight appointments carrying over ,£300 a year made in the branch during the last twelve months, and in every one of them officers have been brought from some other State. It is about time the authorities encouraged the officers within the branch, who are quite capable and competent, if given an opportunity, to change the existing conditions. There is an opportunity now, I believe, because the position of officer in charge is again vacant. Apparently, the Department cannot get men to work this new system, and the trouble will not be remedied until a very different method is adopted. It seems to me that a. system of downright cruelty is being practised, and the sooner it is obviated the better for our own credit, and the credit of the Department as a whole. The work of the branch has got behind, not for want of system, but for want of labour. Instead of supplying the necessary assistance, the Department inaugurate a new system, which results in more overtime than ever being worked, and in a condition of things which, I am told, is not better than previously existed. I can conceive of nothing so calculated to take the heart out of a man who has worked satisfactorily for twenty. or thirty years, as to have another man brought in and put over his head, he being told that there is no chance of his ever being promoted. That is the state of things that is complained of in Sydney to-day, though honorable members opposite seem to be content to allow this kind of sweating to go on without saying anything against it. When the Bill comes before us, there are one or two other matters to which I shall refer. **Mr. FULLER** (Illawarra) [9.27J.- 1 wish to complain of the curt replies given to the series of important questions on notice which I put to the Prime Minister lib-day, and which were answered by the Attorney-General. 'It will come as a surprise to honorable members that **Mr. Donald** Campbell, who was appointed to represent Australia on the Empire Trade Commission, and whose qualifications, or the want of them, for that position were so much discussed lately, is drawing a salary of about £2,000 a year; that is, according to the information furnished today, he' is being paid £4 4s. a day and expenses, which amount to at least 25s. or 30s. a day. **Mr. Campbell's** attempt to get the Commission to deal with matters affect- * ing preferential trade, the Tariff, and other subjects was farcical, because the scope of the work of the Commission was settled by the Prime Minister in consultation with the Prime Minister of England and the Prime Ministers of the other self-governing Dominions last year, and prevents the consideration of the matters with which **Mr. Campbell** wished to deal. **Mr. Campbell** was so taken aback by the result of his proposal, that I naturally wished to know what instructions the Government had given him; but, as was the case with a request made by the honorable member for Echuca, Ministers have not deigned to reply to mv question. **Mr, Campbell** himself has said that the Commission is a waste of money unless the matters which he brought forward are dealt with, and Lord Inchcape, the Chairman of the Commission, has ruled that they cannot be dealt with. Apparently the work of the Commission is merely the obtaining of statistical information, which, in regard to Australia, can be obtained from the *Commonwealth Year Book,* and in regard to other parts of the Empire from similar publications. Furthermore, the Commission has decided to do nothing for the next four months. Therefore, **Mr. Campbell** will have nothing to do for four months, and will be paid at the rate of £2,000 a year while on a holiday in England. The Prime Minister, when the holding of the Commission was discussed, promised that the Australian representative would have the status of a Cabinet Minister, but that cannot be claimed for **Mr. Campbell.** In view of the facts which I have stated, **Mr. Campbell** should be recalled and the scandal ended. Another matter to which I draw attention was referred to by the honorable member for Cook, namely, the selection of a site at Geelong for the erection of the Commonwealth Woollen Mills. According to the Minister of Defence, that has been done with the full approval of the Government, in accordance with the recommendation of an expert brought from England. That expert visited a number of sites, but there were other sites thought worthy of investigation which, acting apparently on Government instructions, he did not visit. But what is more serious is that the expert did not visit what is thought to be a suitable site in the Federal Territory. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- We shall knock out the item when it comes before us in the Estimates. {: #debate-18-s12 .speaker-JZF} ##### Mr FULLER: -- That will be months hence, and the mills will be half erected then, so that, while I should be glad to have the support of the burly member for Maranoa, I am afraid that it will come too late. The Naval College site was chosen at Jervis Bay because of the desire of honorable members that all Commonwealth institutions and factories shall be located within the Federal Territory. This is, indeed, the policy of the Labour party. In consequence of the representations of the Government, New South Wales ceded 15,000 acres of territory at Jervis Bay to the Commonwealth, and although the expert visited Yass-Canberra, he did not visit that part of the territory. I cannot understand the members of the Labour party quietly acquiescing in this departure from their policy, which was a national one, and therefore I cannot be charged with provincialism in supporting it. Apparently, the departure was made as a sort of sop to the constituency of Corio. Indeed, the honorable member for Nepean went so far as to say that the Government had nobbled the expert before he left Melbourne, and all the circumstances point to that conclusion. I sincerely regret that the Prime Minister has not thought fit to lay upon the fable full information regarding the travelling allowances which have been paid to Ministers. Ministers are aware that during a recent by-election in New South Wales, various statements were made in regard to these Ministerial allowances.. I myself referred to them, and stated the conclusions at which I had arrived in regard to the re-introduction of this system by a Labour Government. For the sake of their own reputation, Ministers should lay on the table a return giving the desired information as an answer to the statements that have been made. During the election campaign to which I have just referred, I pointed out that, since the introduction of this system, Ministers, instead of remaining in Melbourne and looking after the business of their Departments during the recess, were travelling from one end of the country to the other - that their absence from the Seat of Government was so frequent that it was almost impossible to have a meeting of the Cabinet to consider questions of great importance to the Commonwealth. For the sake of the reputation of the Ministry, the Prime Minister ought to lay on the table tonight a statement showing what allowances have been drawn. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- We will show what has been paid by way of travelling allowance to Ministers since the beginning of Federation. {: .speaker-JZF} ##### Mr FULLER: -- As a member of the Opposition party in the first Federal Parliament, I moved the adjournment of the House to call attention to travelling allowances that were being paid to members of the first Federal Ministry and to various officers. My action on that occasion put an end to the system of granting travelling allowances to Ministers, and it was not revived until the present Labour Administration took office. The Labour party have always spoken against the payment of allowances and high salaries, and one would think that members of the present Ministry would be satisfied with the ordinary emolument of office, which members of Liberal Governments were content to draw. If there is nothing in this complaint of the Opposition, that fact should be an additional reason why the return asked for should at once be laid on the table of the House. I desire now to refer to the delay which has taken place in connexion with the construction of telephone lines in my constituency-a delay which I think is common to every part of the Commonwealth and is deserving of special attention. Eighteen months have elapsed since the Postmaster-General consented to the continuation of a copper-wire line from Woollongong to Jervis Bay. That extension is absolutely essential to the requirements of the Government, who are now erecting a Naval College at Jervis Bay, but it has not been made, because, as we were informed months and months ago by the Department, no copper wire is available in the Commonwealth. It appears to me that the responsible Minister and the officers in charge of this great Department have been guilty of gross neglect in allowing such a state of affairs to arise. Other promised telephone lines in my constituency, including that from Moss Vale to Robertson, have not yet been proceeded with; and I have no doubt that a similar complaint can be made in regard to hundreds of other lines promised in various parts of the Commonwealth. I gathered from the Budget statement delivered this afternoon by the Treasurer that a large sum had been placed on the Estimates for the carrying out of such works, and I trust that they will be pushed on as speedily as possible in the interests of the people of- Australia. {: #debate-18-s13 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan .- I have an objection to referring to the emoluments which Ministers receive, but I wish to express my disapproval of the system adopted by the present Administration in drawing travelling expenses in addition to the fairly liberal amounts which they receive as Ministers. Members of the Labour party are supposed to be adverse to the unnecessary expenditure of public funds, and I certainly think they are not justified in the action they have taken in this connexion. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- It was agreed to by the right honorable member's party. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- No. Very early in the opening session of the first Parliament of the Commonwealth, objection was taken to Ministers drawing travelling expenses. I have no knowledge of a member of any Federal Government with which I have been connected, with the exception, perhaps, of an Honorary Minister, who receives no salary, being paid travelling expenses. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- As a member of a State Ministry, did the right honorable member draw travelling expenses? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- I did not personally do so, except when on duty beyond the State. State Ministers receive travelling allowances, but their ordinary emoluments are not very high. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- State Ministers receive travelling allowances; but the right honorable member thinks that Commonwealth Ministers, who have to travel all over Australia, are not entitled to any. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- But the emoluments of Federal Ministers are much larger than are those of State Ministers. In regard to this and many other matters, the_ Ministry find themselves in a position which is very convenient from their' point of view, but which from the point of view of the public is unsatisfactory. The fact that their supporters vote solidly with them on almost every occasion makes them less ready to give information concerning matters of public interest than they would be if their party' was not as solid as it is. I was at the head of a Government for many years, but would not have dared to do many things which this Government do not hesitate to do. If, for instance, I had refused a reasonable request for a return, my own supporters would have been the first to turn upon me. That is not the position of this Government. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- In what case has a reasonable request for a return been refused ? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- There has been' great delay. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- In what case has a return been refused? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Why has the return for which the honorable member for Echuca has asked been withheld? Why have not' the Government been prepared to place on the table of theHouse, without requiring a formal motion to be moved, information as to the travelling allowances drawn by Ministers, for which the honorable member has asked. Information as to public expenditure is usually given without any formal motion being necessary. The fact that this is a personal matter, so far as Ministers are concerned, is an additional reason why there should be no reluctance" in supplying the information asked for. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The motion has never been moved. Let the honorable member move for it, and the information will be supplied. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Ministers, by their action, are accentuating the importance of a matter which, after all, is public property. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The honorable member for Echuca asked for only a portion of the information as to travelling allowances drawn by Federal Ministers. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- He is the best judge of what he wants. I rose, however, to refer to a matter of far more importance, and that is the delay that is taking place in the construction of the trans-Australian railway. The Bill providing for the construction of that railway received the Royal assent on 12th December last. Seven months have since elapsed, and yet we were told by the Minister of Home Affairs today that not one rail has been ordered, nor has a contract been let for the delivery of a rail or a sleeper. Nothing has been done on the ground. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- We had no power until two weeks ago to let a contract. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- The Minister has had power during the last seven months. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- The right honorable member and his party were in office for eight or nine years. What did they do in the matter? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- No Bill to provide for the construction of the rail way had been passed, so that we could do nothing. The honorable member talks like a man who is devoid of sense. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- The right honorable member knows that he and his party did nothing while in office. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- Let us be fair. The present Government have been authorized by Act pf Parliament to construct this railway, and they have the money available for the work'. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- Why did not the Government of which the right honorable member was a member pass such a Bill? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- The supporters of the Government will scarcely allow a member of the Opposition to speak. I do not know why they are so anxious to cover up the delinquencies or neglect of the Ministry. They should be just as ready to criticise the Government as are the Opposition when criticism is necessary. They seem, however, to be assuming the responsibility of Ministers without having any actual responsibility. They are like dumbdriven cattle, followers without reason. An Act has been passed, for seven months the money has been available, and yet not a rail or a sleeper has been ordered. No reason whatever is given for the delay, and no honorable member on the other side has said a word about it, or is likely to say a word about it, even though the delay should continue for the next two or three years. As a representative from Western Australia, I complain of the great delayin the carrying out of this work. Why have not rails or sleepers been ordered? There is plenty of timber in Western Australia. The Government should have had rails and sleepers on the ground long ago. The fact is that the railway is not being managed in the way in which it ought to be. I suppose that much of the delay is clue to Ministerial interference and incompetence. The railway is being used, in my opinion, for political purposes. It is, as far as the" present Government is concerned, a political railway, and the fact that it is a great national" railway appears to be forgotten. The delay in the carrying out of this work is monstrous, and I attribute it to the interference and incompetence of the Minister of Home Affairs. The other members of the Government are, of course, responsible with him for the delay. The responsibility for a great work of this sort should have been placed upon the professional officers, who are men of experience and rep,ute, and if that course had been adopted, it would not have been necessary for me to say what I have had to say on this occasion. . {: #debate-18-s14 .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS:
Cook -- I wish to enter a protest against the repeated references by honorable members opposite to the travelling allowances of Ministers. I recollect distinctly that when the Prime Minister made a statement on the subject at the close of last session, the right honorable member for Swan sat in his place as dumb as an oyster. The Leader of the Opposition, though he did not speak on the matter, nodded his agreement with the statement made by the Prime Minister. Every member of the Opposition silently concurred in the arrangement explained, and now they would insinuate that something has been done to which they have taken exception. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I suppose we have no right to express an opinion. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Why did not the right honorable gentleman express his opinion when the matter was first mentioned by the Prime Minister, and an effective protest might have been made? It is nothing but sheer hypocrisy for honorable members opposite to allow a certain course to be followed without protest, and then, six or twelve months later, make a noise to induce the public to believe that something is being done to which they have objected. It is nothing but electioneering clap-trap. The right honorable member for Swan has also made some references to the transcontinental railway. His continuous insulting remarks, and bullying attitude might excuse Ministers for being indisposed to hasten the construction of the work. With his tongue in his cheek the right honorable gentleman complains that the work is not being proceeded with ; but he would be delighted, when he goes before the electors of Western Australia, to be in a position to say that nothing has been done in the matter at all. He would like to be able to rail against the Government from one end of the country to the other, and complain that they had- not done a solitary thing to forward the construction of the railway. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I ask you, sir, whether it is proper for the honorable member to say that I wish a public work to be delayed for my political advantage? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member for Cook was not in order in casting such a reflection. I ask the honorable member to confine his remarks to the Supply Bill. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- I submit that I am in order in replying to the references made by two previous speakers to the transcontinental railway and the allowances granted to Ministers. The right honorable member for Swan was for years a member of a Liberal Government who did not do a tap towards the construction of the Western Australian railway. We know that they wrote any number of memoranda, but they did nothing. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- One would think that the honorable member was Minister of Home Affairs, he defends the honorable gentleman so strongly. Why does he not let the Minister defend himself? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- The right honorable gentleman thinks he should make an attack and then dictate not only as to who should reply to him, but also the manner of the reply. He cannot order things in this House as he was able to do in the old days in Western Australia. I think it necessary to point out that the right honorable gentleman knows well that the present Government have done more, in the couple of years during which they have had the opportunity, to bring about the construction of the transcontinental railway, than he and his friends did during the many years they had the opportunity to do something in the matter, and neglected it. I have no particular liking for Ministerial travelling allowances, but I may say that I was present when the motion put upon the paper by the honorable member for Echuca was referred to. It was objected to as formal unless it was amended so as to include a statement of the travelling allowances paid to their predecessors, as well as a statement of those paid to the members .of the present Government. For electioneering purposes the honorable member for Echuca desires that a statement of the travelling allowances paid to Labour Ministers shall go forth to the public, without a similar statement of the allowances paid to Liberal Ministers. We "desire that a statement of the allowances paid to both Labour and Liberal Ministers should be published at the same time. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Put them all in. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- The honorable member for Parramatta is very cute; but I am referring to the attitude of honorable members opposite in connexion with the motion submitted by the honorable member for Echuca. The Prime Minister made an objection to it, and said that a statement of the allowances paid to Liberal Ministers should be supplied at the same time as the statement asked for respecting allowances paid to Labour Ministers. The honorable member for Echuca, and his friends on the other side, were not prepared to go on with the motion in those circumstances. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Ministers can place any paper they like on the table. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr j H CATTS: -- Why did the right honorable member " pull out " the honorable member for Echuca, and not allow him to go on with his motion? Why was the amendment objected to? I understood from the Prime Minister that if the addition to the motion was accepted, he would agree to the morion at once. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Let the motion be brought on. and we shall give all the information. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H CATTS: -- Of course, we know all this agitation on the part of the Opposition is but a bit of electioneering trickery. Honorable members of the Opposition will laugh over the matter, but when it appears in *Hansard* it may be regarded as very serious by the people. However, we all know that it is only part of the " game " being played by honorable members opposite, and, as a fact, nobody would be more grieved than themselves if they had no grievances to complain of. I have no doubt, however, that the public will place their due value on these proceedings. {: #debate-18-s15 .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY:
Minister of Home Affairs · Darwin · ALP -- The honorable member for Swan either does not know or does not desire to know, and this discussion would seem to indicate that there is a survival, not of the fittest, but of the trickiest. The right honorable member is aware that the Act provides that, until both Western Australia and South Australia consent to., grant the land necessary, we have no power to let any contract. The South Australian Minister agreed on 3rd July, but even in that case the matter is not quite settled, and is still in the Attorney-General's Department ? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Why take so long about it ? {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY: -- It is not our fault. We cannot let any contract unless we break the law, and that we are not going to do. Everything is ready to start the railway, and all the business is systematized. The railway is going to be built quickly {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Where are the rails ? {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY: -- Would the honorable member be prepared to let the trusts of the world compel the Commonwealth to pay any prices they choose to ask ? We on this side are too good as business men to allow ourselves to be deliberately swindled by combines. We shall have the rails furnished at a reasonable price, and they will be there when we are ready to start. {: #debate-18-s16 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin -- Ever since Parliament met I have been trying, without success, to elicit some information from the Minister of Home Affairs as to what is proposed to be done in regard to the supply of sleepers for the transcontinental railway. It is rumoured that an arrangement has been,, or is being, entered into between the Minister and the Western Australian Government for a supply of sleepers from the Government sawmills, without any opportunity for competition by way of contract. The gum-top stringy bark, and the blue gum of Tasmania are equal, and, I believe, superior to any timber in the Commonwealth ; and it is only fair that every State should have an opportunity to tender for the supply. Tt is further said that there is a prejudice on the part of some of the officers against Tasmanian timber, and, if that be so, we ought to know the fact. For years Tasmanian mills have supplied sleepers to America, Europe, and other parts of the world; and fair competition should be allowed, even though the timber in Western Australia does come from a Government mill. The Minister, I know, prides himself on being a business man; and if he desires to advantage the Commonwealth he will adopt the course I suggest, in preference to entering into a private arrangement, even with a State Government. The Tasmanian timbers I have mentioned are a great deal better than karri, though I know that jarrah is a first-class timber. There should be no secret arrangements here about these matters ; but the whole of the papers should be laid on the table, and contracts called for in the public press. {: #debate-18-s17 .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton .- I decline to sit here and be called a hypocrite, even by the honorable member for Cook, who said that the Minister submitted a motion in reference to the Ministerial travelling allowances. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- I did not say that. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- At any rate, the honorable member said the Prime Minister made a statement; indeed, the honorable member did say that the Prime Minister moved a motion. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- I did not. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- The Prime Minister asked leave of the House to make a statement, and no honorable member had an opportunity to reply. {: #debate-18-s18 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- I must say a word in reprobation of the untrue and unreasoned statements of the honorable member for Cook, who has not been long enough here to know the difficulty that the honorable member for Swan had in the pioneering days of this railway. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- I know more than honorable members opposite like. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- -Then the honorable member knows that there is no man in the Chamber who has done so much to get this railway forward, from the beginning of Federation, as has the honorable member for Swan. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- Then he evidently had very little influence. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Every one knows that the right honorable member for Swan has not nearly so much influence as has the honorable member for Cook. Every one knows what a tremendously great man my honorable friend opposite is, and how influential he is here and elsewhere. The fact remains, however, that, from the onset of Federation, there is no man who has worked so hard for the construction of this transcontinental railway as has the right honorable gentleman who has been traduced to-night by the honorable member for Cook. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- With what result? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- With the result that the Labour party who supported him all these years would not allow him to get very much "forrarder" with it. My honorable friend knows that that is the truth. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- Why did not the honorable member's party " gag " the railway through as they did all their legislation? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I venture to say that there was quite as much done in that direction during that brief period of eleven months as my honorable friends opposite have done. The honorable member for Cook was grossly unfair in the statement he made to-night about the expenses of Ministers. The proposal was not agreed to over here. I, for one, was not in the chamber when the thing went through {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- The honorable member should have been. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- There is a remark from an honorable member who did not put in an appearance here until three weeks after Parliament met. What was he doing? There were echoes outside the chamber of some tremendous battle of Waterloo which was raging, and now he comes here and begins to talk about other honorable members being absent from their duty. He was absent from his place here, but he was on duty all the same, and I do not mind saying that I congratulate him on the result. I desire to say a few words about the business Minister who was not able to spend the money voted last year for work by nearly £300,000. That does not look much like business. It will be seen on reference to the Estimates, that nearly every vote which is proposed for my electorate is a re-vote. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- I will put it through this year. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not call that business - if it is, it is bad business, at any rate, for me. I hope that honorable members fared better than I did. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- The honorable member will have no trouble this year. {: .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr Page: -- How did the honorable member come off with the chasers? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The chasers, of course, came along, but no money was sent with them. Every one of these promissory notes was dishonoured. There is no profit to me in that kind of business. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- I will see that the votes are spent this year. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I hope that things will be done in a better way. It was not from want of effort on my part that the votes for my electorate were not spent last year. I suppose that I was more unfortunate than were other honorable members. Given the chasers in, I do not call it business that, out of a comparatively small works vote, £300,000 was unexpended at the end of the financial year. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- There will be nothing saved this year. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I hope that the honorable member is right. With regard to a return of Ministerial expenses, does not the Prime Minister think it is about time to stop this little game that is going on ? Does he not think it is time that he laid the statement on the table, and ended the whole controversy ? I invite him now to take that course, and to be done with the matter. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- What about the expenses of the Liberal Ministers? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Let the return include every penny which has been spent in this way since Federation. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- Does the honorable member say that the Prime Minister can do it at this minute? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I believe that he can. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Why does not the honorable member for Echuca move his motion ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Why should he move his motion? The Ministry have control over the House. Let them take their own course, and put the return on the table. **Mr. Archibald.** - We want it to appear in *Hansard.* {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I can promise the honorable member that the return will appear in *Hansard* if the Prime Minister will lay it on the- table. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- You cannot do that. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Yes, we can. The Prime Minister can put the return in *Hansard* just as readily as we can. He has absolute control over the whole matter, and honorable members ought to stop making these taunting speeches over the table and calling other honorable members hypocritical unless they are prepared to bring this matter to an issue. I again invite the Prime Minister to publish the return, and let us see how carefully the resources of the Commonwealth have been husbanded. I do not hesitate to say that if I were in the place of the honorable member for Echuca I would do what the Prime Minister has asked. But will the latter, in return, give us time to get at the motion, or is it to be kept on the business-paper as usual? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- If the honorable member will take up the matter himself I will give him any reasonable time. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- When? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Soon. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- Not for the purpose of wasting time. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- A formal motion could be moved, and there need not be ten minutes wasted. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- It would not be a formal motion, but one moved by the honorable member. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Am I to jump the claim of my Honorable friend ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I will give the honorable member time. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Why will not the Prime Minister do this for the honorable member for Echuca? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Because the game has been played too shabbily. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr Palmer: -- I ask for the withdrawal of that remark. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is time some honorable member came 'to my assistance when I am called upon to face a brigade of political soldiers like those opposite. I do not know what the Prime Minister means when he says that the game has been played too shabbily. Certainly I have not played any game at all. But this is a matter upon which many incorrect statements have been made, so far as my own party is concerned. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Will the honorable member tell us what he said when the Prime Minister made the statement which he did regarding Ministers' travelling expenses towards the close of last session? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- What time was there to debate it? Half the members of the Chamber were absent, and the other half were anxious to get the business through. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- Does the honorable member say that the Leader of the Opposition did not agree to that proposal? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Certainly. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- He did. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- He says that he did not. He assures me that, neither by gesture nor word, did he approve of it. {: .speaker-F4Q} ##### Mr Scullin: -- He nodded his head in assent. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- Why does not the Leader of the Opposition come here and make the statement himself? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- He has made it outside, and has had it published in the newspapers Droadcast. In reply to a statement made by the Honorary Minister at Goulburn, he telegraphed a most emphatic denial that he had assented to the proposal. He said that, neither by gesture nor word, did he give the faintest approval to it. I do not know what to say to the honorable member for Corangamite, who practically charges him with lying. {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- What is the honorable member charging us with? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Nothing at all, that I know of. I merely say that honorable members opposite misrepresent us when they say that we agreed to that proposal. Either the thing is right, or it is wrong. If it be right, what harm can result from making the whole matter public? {: .speaker-JWO} ##### Mr J H Catts: -- I was present at the time the Prime Minister made his statement, and the honorable member was not.- {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I merely know whai I have been told by the Leader of the Opposition, and I ambound to accept his emphatic denial that he expressed approval of the proposal. I want to ask the Prime Minister what he intends to do in reference to that matter. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I propose to pass the Supply Bill. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- And what about the motion of the honorable member for Echuca ? Will he agree to it, or not ? If he is prepared to agree to it, let him put the statement on the table. I have seen it, and the Prime Minister has taken case to get every line and letter included in it which will tell in his favour. It would be far better for the whole thing to be made public. That would end the controversy, and end it at once. {: #debate-18-s19 .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr OZANNE:
Corio .- After listening for a considerable time to the twaddle of the honorable member for . Parramatta {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is not in order in using that term. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr OZANNE: -- I wish to say that the Prime Minister distinctly stated, towards the close of last session, that certain expenses were to be allowed to Ministers. Without exception, the Opposition, apparently, assented to the proposal, and the honorable member for Wimmera said that the rates proposed were not sufficient. I distinctly heard him make that statement. The honorable member for Bendigo, by his silence, acquiesced in the proposal. Personally, I would rather support a Ministry which was not afraid to make a deliberate statement as to the expenses which its members proposed to take whilst travelling than I would a Ministry which takes expenses in secret, or obtains them through some other channel. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- To what Ministry does the honorable member refer? {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr OZANNE: -- The honorable member will find out later on. The honorable member for Illawarra stated to-night that the selection of a site at Geelong for woollen mills was merely a sop to Corio. I enter my emphatic protest against that statement, *because I* honestly believe that the expert whom the Government brought to Australia has selected the best site available for the purpose. Question resolved in the affirmative. Resolution reported and adopted. *Ordered -* >That **Mr. Fisher** and **Mr. Hughes** do *prepare* and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented and passed through all its stages. {: .page-start } page 1613 {:#debate-19} ### PAPERS MINISTERS laid upon the table- the following papers: - >Budget 1912-13 - Papers prepared by the Right Honorable Andrew Fisher, P.C., for the information of honorable members on the occasion of openingthe Budget of 1912-13. Ordered to be printed. Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired under, at Boolaroo, New South Wales - For Postal purposes. Manufactures Encouragement Act - Return of Bounty paid during year 1911-12. Meteorology Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1912, No. 159. Public Service Act - Temporary Employes - Return for ' year 1911-12. Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1912, No. 160. Shale Oils Bounties Act - Return of Bounty paid during year 1911-12. {: .page-start } page 1613 {:#debate-20} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-20-0} #### Private Business {: #subdebate-20-0-s0 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Prime Minis ter and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- In moving- >That the House do now adjourn, I desire to say that I have made an arrangement with the Leader of the Opposition regarding business to-morrow. Honorable members who bad private business on the paper to-day gave up two and a half hours of time to the Government. I promised them that I would give an opportunity for dealing with their business,, and feel that I must fulfil my promise as early as possible. To-morrow morning the motion standing in the name of the honorable member for Illawarra with regard to the Northern Territory Land Ordinance will take precedence up to1 o'clock. It is understood that a division will be taken at that time. It is expected that the speakers will be limited to two or three. In the afternoon the first business will be the motion standing in the name of the honorable member for Richmond in regard . to the butter industry. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- What about the business standing in the name of the honorable member for Echuca? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- That will come next. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 10.33p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 1 August 1912, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1912/19120801_reps_4_65/>.