House of Representatives
19 December 1911

4th Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30- a.m., and read prayers.

page 4720

QUESTION

NAVAL COLLEGE

Mr ROBERTS:
Minister (without portfolio) · ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Yesterday the honor able member for Illawarra asked a question about certain statements alleged to have been made by Captain Chambers in regard to temporary sites for’ the Naval College. I have ascertained that Captain Chambers has not made the statements attributed to him.

page 4720

QUESTION

SYDNEY TELEGRAPH STAFF

Mr FRAZER:
Postmaster-General · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– On the 13th December the honorable member for Gwydir asked’ the following questions : -

  1. Whether it is a fact that the tentative arrangement of staff hours in the Sydney Telegraph Branch has been re-arranged? 2, Is it a fact that since the re-arranged arrangement officers have had to work for twelve and a half hours without a break?
  2. Are any arrangements being made to provide additional officers on the staff, temporary or otherwise, to meet the Christmas rush?
  3. Is, it a fact that the re-arranged arrangement further lengthens the hours of duty ?

The following information has been obtained from the Deputy. PostmasterGeneral, Sydney : -

  1. Yes. 2.No. Notwithstanding the fact that severe monsoonal disturbances interfered with lines and dislocated traffic on four days between the 4th and 9th December inclusive, the only staffs affected, by the re-arranged duties which were called upon to work in excess of the hours providedby those duties were those normally working1 to 7.30 p.m. and 3 to 8.30 p.m.

The total staff consists of 205 officers, and of those who would normally have been required to work from 1 to 7.30 p.m., the following list shows those who were called upon to work over seven hours, and the total time worked by them daily : -

On the 4th December, six officers worked seven hours Ave minutes each.

On the 5th December, nineteen officers worked from seven hours five minutes to seven hours ten minutes.

On the 8th December, twenty-three officers worked from seven hours five minutes to seven hours fifteen minutes.

While of the same group of officers the following worked less than the prescribed number of hours : - 4th December, one officer. 6th December, twenty-four officers. 7th December, nine officers. 8th December, one officer. 9th December, thirty officers.

Of the officers who would normally have been required to work from 3 to S.30 p.m. the following list shows those who were called upon to work over six hours daily : -

While of the same group of officers the following worked under five and a half hours daily : - 6th December, one officer. 7th December, one officer. 8th December, one officer. 9th December, twoofficers.

In. every case special consideration will be given to the officers who have worked overtime so that at a future date, when circumstances permit, they will be released from duty as early as possible. As indicating the practice in this connexion it may be said that of the officers normally required to work from 10 to 12.30 and 3 p.m. to 6.30, the following officers were released from duty before the normal time in some cases for a few minutes, in others up to an hour or two. hours, on the dates named : - 4th December, seven officers. 5th December, eight officers. 6th December, twenty-nine officers. 7th December, thirty-one officers. 9th December, twenty-nine officers.

  1. The staff is being re-arranged in order to meet the Christmas and New Year rush, and every effort is being made to secure competent temporary telegraphists.
  2. See answer to No. 2.
Mr SPEAKER:

– Where the answers, to questions are so lengthy, the better course would be to lay them on the table.

Mr FRAZER:

– You, sir, have ruled that matter cannot be published in Hansard unless it is read.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Referring to the answer just given-

Mr SPEAKER:

– If the honorable member is about to ask a question, I would remind him that question time is over.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– HaveI not the right to ask a question in reference to the statements just made by the Minister? In the Senate, I. understand, that right is recognised.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The custom in this House is that after the business of the day has been called on, the putting of questions without notice is not permitted.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– That is only the custom.

Mr SPEAKER:

– It is the practice of the House.

page 4721

QUESTION

DEFENCE REGULATIONS

Mr ROBERTS:
ALP

– Yesterday the hon orable member for Dalley asked a question relating to some statements in the International Socialist in an article headed “ Some Facts about the Australian Navy.” I promised to inquire into the foundation of those statements, and I have now to inform the honorable member that Garden Island, to which they relate, is not under the control of this Government.

page 4721

VEND CASE : WITNESSES’ EXPENSES

Motion (by Mr. W. Elliot Johnson) proposed -

That a return be prepared and laid upon the table of the.House showing the total amount paid in the Vend cases for witnesses’ expenses, and the amount paid to each witness.

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I propose - -

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable mem-‘ ber may not debate the question, although he may object to the motion being treated’ as unopposed business.

Mr J H Catts:

– I object.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– But the motion is already set down as unopposed.

Mr SPEAKER:

– That signifies that the Government does not oppose it, but the objection of any member is fatal.

Mr J H Catts:

– I wish to withdraw my objection. It was made under a misapprehension. My desire was to obtain other information, which I find has already been made available.

Mr SPEAKER:

– It is too late.

page 4722

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

In Committee of Supply (Consideration resumed from 18th December, vide page 4644).

Department of External Affairs

Division 30 (Administrative), £14,239

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- From my knowledge of the statement made last night by the Minister in regard to the Northern Territory, I am indebted to the apparently fairly-full reports in this morning’s newspapers. I hope, however, that those reports have omitted a good deal that tlie honorable member was expected to say by way of a declaration of Government policy. I found a ‘number of interesting statements as to the present position and a few vague anticipations, but could detect nothing in the shape of a permanent policy or any reasons for the failure to give such a statement of policy. We have in the Northern Territory an enormous and rather embarrassing heritage in respect of the particular character of its resources that are readily available. Speaking generally, there are evidently great opportunities for the grazing industry. These, to a certain extent, have been taken advantage of, and have been a source of considerable prosperity to some of the earlier settlers. In a few directions they are being developed by Mr. Kidman and others associated by him, as well as by other large enterprises. But while that is satisfactory, so far as it goes, it makes comparatively little for the peopling of the country.

Apart from the few isolated proposals for practical action that were made by the Minister last night, there was nothing that would suggest to the average ‘citizen, deeply ‘interested in the peopling of the Northern Territory, any promise that a scheme with, that object in view is within measurable distance. ‘ The one item of satisfaction is that the Minister proposes to take an early opportunity of making himself personally acquainted* with the Territory. That is a wise and desirable step, although the time allotted ‘ for it does not promise anything like the searching inquiry necessary. This omission will, I assume, be supplied by some other arrangement. People, and yet again people, and always people, are the main desideratum, the aim of every intelligent citizen who considers our problem in the Northern Territory. Action of a very judicious character has been taken in the selection of Professor Spencer for the office he has to fill. I doubt if it would have been possible to find the world over a man more suited for the greater .part of the work he has taken in hand. That fair and, if possible, generous and sympathetic consideration that is due to the aboriginal population of the Territory, which has suffered a good deal at the hands of lawless people of our own colour, is likely to be extended to them by Professor Spencer, whose sympathies with them as a student of their beliefs and customs make him a: most fit person for this task. This appointment is a guarantee that the aboriginal population is certain to be well dealt with.

But what of the white population, small as it is, already there, and the white population that we desire to see there as soon as possible? I noticed the reference made by the Minister to the 500,000 acres of land of good quality in one area, and similar promises that other localities held out. But we have not been informed whether the Minister has on foot any scheme that really means, without further delay, a commencement of the settlement of all lands proved to be fruitful. Has the Minister considered the suggestion often made in this House as to an extension of the Pine Creek railway eastward to that plateau of the Territory where the prospects of cultivation are good and the climatic conditions most favorable ?

Mr Thomas:

– I stated last night that that was one of the things we hoped to do.

Mr DEAKIN:

– When will a start be made with the construction of that line ?

Mr Thomas:

– We are having a survey made, and I hope to be able to bring the matter before Parliament next session.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Speaking generally, we have three openings in the Northern Territory for the ‘man who is prepared to com1 bine agriculture with general farming. These are furnished by the two great waterways to the east and to the west, and partly by the existing Pine Creek line and railway extensions.

The reports as to the land bordering on these two great waterways, in some cases easily accessible from them, are most encouraging. Even the mission reports from neighbouring areas hold out hope of a very prosperous future for those parts of the Territory. I understand that a good deal of the land on these waterways has already been acquired ; that a good deal of land held- either under freehold or on long leaseholds is situated in these quarters. There are still available, however, in close proximity to, and in some cases on the banks of these rivers, land that can be at once utilized. That being so, we need not wait for the extension of the Pine Creek line to secure settlement. These rivers are navigable for some distance by fairly large vessels, and for a considerable distance by the type of vessel that would suffice for the supplies and products of agriculturists. I should like to hear from the Minister that something in that direction is contemplated at once- The extension of the Pine Creek railway has been in view for many years, and something should be done today to push on with that extension. Meanwhile, why should we not attack the settlement of the Territory by means of these great waterways? In that way we could establish small settlements of capable men, and begin practical tests of the qualities of the soil and the best means of dealing with it. Such tests must be made if we are to provide the necessary objectlesson for .future settlers.

I do not propose to detain the Committee, but one could not help feeling greatly disappointed , on reading the Minister’s statement. I found that feeling shared by several honorable members with whom I had ah opportunity to speak this morning. It is not that, the impossible is expected, but the Minister’s statements did not even seem to suggest an assurance that these tests would be made without further delay. There has been so much inevitable delay in connexion with the Territory that we might be par. cloned if we now feel much more than the customary dissatisfaction since it seems that the actual . beginning with this work on a very small scale may yet be postponed for an- indefinite time. Speaking for the whole House, so far as I know there is a disposition to give Ministers every support-; not to blame them if they make experiments some of which are not successful, or to-refuse men if as settlers they are not the very best the world can supply.

We are all pressing for some test in a practical way of the application of white labour to the resources of the Territory, and its opportunities for development. I do not hesitate to repeat what has often been said, that the Northern Territory is our weakest spot, and the danger point, of the whole of Australia - the coasts on which all our anxieties are centred. I venture, therefore, to say that if the Minister requires more funds or more encouragement from this Chamber, . to make a dash with . practical objects in view, he will find us not too critical of the cost or other conditions. There will be the strongest disposition everywhere to trust the Minister and his advisers, and to be satisfied if they do something, even if only a ‘little, ahead . of that permanent settlement, of which these efforts should be an earnest and guarantee. There is a great deal in example and leadership, and much in the first plunge. Let us begin here and now. We ought to make that plunge now, to authorize the Minister to take action before we rise, although we hope to prorogue within the’ next day or so. Under the circumstances I hope the Minister will supplement his statement of last night by a further assurance which will enable us to dose the session with more content as to the prospects of peopling our vast heritage in the Northern Territory.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- As one who has taken considerable interest in bringing the Northern Territory under the control of the Commonwealth, I feel it my duty to say a few words. I recognise the difficulties of the Minister in view of the limited time he has been at the head of the Department.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– There ought to be a Departmental, policy !

Mr POYNTON:

– I recognise that it is time there was something like a definite policy. The references by the Minister last night are all right so far as they go, but they do not go nearly far enough ; and, in my opinion, we are beginning at the wrong end. It is quite true that there should be experimental farming, but not only in one place; and. I was sorry to hear the Minister last night merely mention Rum Jungle. On the Roper, Adelaide, and Daly Rivers there is practically unlimited room for farms of this kind, whereas at Rum Jungle, operations must be circumscribed. The honorable member for Illawarra knows that on the Daly River there are immense areas on which experimental farms could be established, with further lands for farming expansion. 1 Then, something should be done in the way of finding a market for those who settle iri the Northern Territory. There is a proposal to establish an Export Department, with freezing and chilling works. The Minister does not seem quite sure whether these works will be established at Port Darwin ; but, at any rate, we have a proposal of the kind before us. No doubt all these ideas will have to be adopted in any perfect scheme of development ; but, in addition, there must be ample railway facilities. I have no objection to extending the present line from Pine Creek across the Katherine, tapping some of the Barclay tableland; but we have to remember that the Katherine is a long way from that tableland. However, such a railway must be part of any successful scheme. What I take exception to is the statement of the Minister that he does not look forward to the development of the Territory by Australian labour. Time will prove, I think, that he is altogether wrong in his forecast. Australian labour will have to do the pioneering work, and practically prepare the Territory for other settlers. That being so, the first idea that occurs to any man who thinks seriously on the subject, is to provide facilities for people from the settled parts of Australia to reach the Territory. Intending settlers should never be asked to send their people and their stock by boat on a journey occupying, practically, as much time as a trip to London. I should begin the development of the Territory with people from the settled parts of Australia, and, to that end, there ought to be railway connexions with the States in the South.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Railways to the east would be much nearer.

Mr POYNTON:

– My honest opinion is that there will ultimately be railways connecting with New South Wales, Queensland, and South Australia.

Mr Groom:

– And, ultimately, Western Australia.

Mr POYNTON:

– There will, of course, ultimately be a railway to Western Aus tralia in the far north-west, where there is some very good timber and other -country. Another good reason for the establishment of such railway connexions is found in the forecasts of future seasons. In Parlia-ment and out of Parliament, by every business “man and expert, it is recognised that our ‘good seasons of the past seven or eight years, will, in the ordinary course of events, be followed by dry seasons. Without wishing to appear as analarminst, I may point out that we have, in cycles, our lean and our fat years, though possibly the lean years of the. future may not be nearly so disastrous as those in the past; Improved conditions, better methods of tilling the soil, and the greater provision made against droughts in consequence of the lessons learnt from the past, will reduce the amount of loss in future bad seasons. If we/had had railway communication from the States to the Northern Territory we should have been able to save, if not the whole, very nearly the whole of the millions of stock that we lost in the most disastrous droughts of the past, because unless it be down in the south-east corner or the extreme south of the Territory, there is no such thing as a drought in that vast area. It has its wet season and its dry season. It has its periodical rains every year as regularly as the sun shines, and with a proper policy of railway development, we shall be able in any similar period of drought to depasture and save millions of our stock in the Northern Territory. Not only would that happen, but every one who went there, and the great bulk of the stock that was taken there, except the fats that would be sent away, would remain in the -Territory. This would be one of the finest things that could happen in the way of development, but it cannot happen with a railway scheme that starts from Pine Creek. Under present conditions all the stock has to be sent by water, which is an impossible proposition, and the same applies to your men. I take it that what the Government have put forward is only a very moderate portion of the scheme which they are going ultimately to introduce in the Territory. We have taken over the responsibility of that huge tract of country with our eyes open, and with a. full knowledge of the liabilities that we were immediately assuming. We are like a man who has a comparatively small holding and takes a large holding alongside. If he keeps it idle he must ulti- mately land himself in the Insolvency Court and lose both holdings.

Mr Riley:

– That is how the case applied to South Australia.

Mr POYNTON:

– It is only a matter of time for the same thing to happen to the Common wealth, unless it undertakes the development of its new holding. Certain work must be done there to get a return, but at present we have to face a loss which will continue unless we have the courage to go in for the necessary development. This will convert a losing proposition into a paying one in at least a reasonable time. I am as confident of that as that I am standing on the floor of the House, but it will not be done with a timid proposition .to extend the railway 60 miles across the Katherine River, nor will it be done by merely catering for the few cattle- owners in the Northern Territory to-day. It can be done only by a vigorous railway policy, which will be followed by people and followed by stock. First must come the pastoral development, then will follow the agricultural development, and after that, there will be the tropical’ or closer settlement, all of which are possible in. the Territory. There are three distinct climatic conditions there. There is a stretch of country running 80 miles inland from the 1,200 miles of coastline, with tropical conditions and a 60-inch rainfall. Inside that there is a stretch of country on the eastern side of the Katherine extending into the Barclay tablelands, with semi-tropical’ conditions. Inside that again is the MacDonnell Range country running practically through the middle of the Territory, with temperate climatic- conditions. We have a very fine class of country, but none of it can be occupied successfully by sheep to-day, because of ,the want of facilities. Much less can it be occupied for agriculture without railway facilities. With railway facilities, I have no doubt about the future of the Territory. It is an asset which this House need not hesitate to develop. I go further and say that the House, having accepted the responsibility, must, as business men, spend the necessary money on the development of the Territory to make good what has been expended. This will not be done by a mere 60 miles of railway crossing to the Katherine- The question of land tenure is a secondary consideration. It is not the liberality or want of liberality of tenure that constitutes the drawback to that country. The- drawback is want of railway facilities.. Look at it how you will, you must come back to the proposition that everything else is subsidiary to a proper railway development scheme. I take no exception to the proposal for a leasehold system, but I want to impress upon honorable members that we could -absolutely give the land away to-day,” as South- Australia could have done, but even then, without proper railway facilities to get people and stock there, and encourage natural development, all your propositions of tenure would be rather a snare and a danger than an advantage. You might find when your railway development had taken place that your country would stand much higher rentals than, it will stand if you throw, it open first, and put your railways in afterwards. The whole scheme for the development of the Territory -and the whole question of rentals ought to be associated with a railway scheme. Give me a railway, and I know what rent to charge for my country. Iknow what is a fair thing to get back from the people who have been given, the advantage of a railway scheme. That is a very .different proposition from introducing a system of tenure first, and effecting a development policy afterwards. It is time the Government had a fully developed policy for the administration of the Territory. I had anticipated that some properly thought-out scheme would be put before us before this session closed. I understand that there is a proposal that a Mr. Francis should recommend the necessary railway construction. He may be a very eminent fellow. I do not know what ex”perience he has had, but they say he came from Victoria. He is associated now with the railway from Palmerston to Pine Creek. He may be the best man in the world.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– If he were, he would not be there.

Mr POYNTON:

– There is something in that. I wish for a more comprehensive railway scheme than he is likely to propose. He will never get any reasonable distance beyond the Katherine. I trust that party considerations will not affect our dealingswith the Northern Territory. When honorable members and senators visit the Territory during the recess, they should travel through it from South Australia, from New South Wales, and from Queensland, so “that they may be acquainted with itsconditions from north to south and from east to- west. Then, when they- come back, they will have something to tell about it.

When the last visit, was made, the honorable member for Illawarra and myself, and two gentlemen whose absence from the House we all regret, the late Mr. Batchelor and the late Mr. Hutchison, made a long ride across country, and saw a great deal more of it than any other members ot the party . But, after all, we saw but very little, as is plain by following our track on the map, so enormous is the Territory. There will not be any great advantage gained if the party which visits the Territory during the next recess does not do more than the former party did. It should go through the temperate region, travel across the MacDonnell Range country and over the tableland, and pass through the tropical region. During the last visit only the tropical and subtropical parts of the country were visited. At the time I appealed to the Minister then in power to arrange for half u dozen of us to go right across the country, but the excursion was not made, I think because of the cost. I hope that the present Minister will do more than provide facilities for getting to Port Darwin. That is not the Northern Territory, which stretches south from it for 900 miles, and has a breadth of 600 miles. Before th* session ends, I trust that the Minister will make a statement outlining a much more vigorous policy than has yet been proposed. If we do not deal with the Territory more vigorously, we shall only do what South Australia did - pile up deficits - and what we spend will be like throwing money into the sea. To make a success of ,the Territory there must be a large expenditure, and if that expenditure is made in dribs and drabs during a period of ten or twenty years, it will result in failure. One great need is railways. The country needs a number of railways, and, given means of communication, is capable of carrying a large population.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) (11. 16].- I congratulate the honorable member for Grey - on his sound, sane, vigorous speech. It is evident that he knew what he was talking about, and I hope that his- remarks will be heeded by Ministers. I was profoundly disappointed with the Minister’s speech last night. We do not expect him at .his own initiative, and from his own resources, to propound a policy for the, Northern Territory, but we expected to hear of a bold, departmental scheme for the development of the Territory. The honorable member for .Grey rightly says that- the policy . stated last night, will do nothing to lift off the present incubus from the Territory. The Minister told us nothing that we have not always known. We are aware that horses, cattle, and sheep can be bred there, and that mineral resources exist which need development. ‘We know, too, that there is agricultural land, and we are acquainted with the advantages of freezing works. What we need is a policy of development which will make use of all these possibilities. We are told that there is a Railway Commissioner there ; I suppose he has been there for some years.

Mr Thomas:

– For about six months.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I have never heard of him. Where did he come from, what are his qualifications, and what is his salary? It is farcical to regard a man who is getting ,£500 or ,£600 a year in that part of the world as an expert on development by railway extension. This country is cursed more by the policy of doing with the second-best than by anything else. We should be large-minded enough to search for the best, and to press it into the service of the Commonwealth. There are elsewhere those who have had experience in dealing with the problems with which we are faced, ‘ and the attraction of adventure and a high salary will secure the best talent in the world. . We need to obtain that talent,, and to let it loose in the Northern . Territory, so as to get the full value of it. That ought to have been done long ago. After we have waited twelve months, practically nothing is proposed. AH we know is that a £500- a-year-man is going to undertake the work of reporting on railway development.

Mr Thomas:

Mr. Francis gets £650 a year.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is equivalent to .£400 or .£500 a year here. For the right man, .£4,000 a year would not be too much. He would be worth it, if he could sketch out the right policy. I do not suggest that we should immediately pay ,£4,000 a -year, but we should search for the best talent. If we can get it for less, well and good, but otherwise we must pay for it what is asked. Our prime need is ability and experience. This is not the first time that problems like these with which we are faced have been tackled, and experience counts for everything in regard to them. The Minister last night told us nothing new. He is merely tinkering with the business. We. are losing ^400,000 a year- on ‘the Territory, but even ..if everything ‘he . suggests were done,.. ..it would not enable us to overtake the. deficit within twenty years, to say nothing of peopling the country, and giving us the security we ought to feel in respect of the rest of Australia by a policy of development up there. The Territory is being administered by the wrong Department. Whataffinity is there between the Department of External Affairs and the development of an internal policy?

Mr Poynton:

– The Territory is big enough to engage the undivided attention of one Minister.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Certainly, and should it not be linked up with the Department of Home Affairs, which has in its service both engineers and surveyors? The Minister of External Affairs has no machinery by which to begin the developmentof the Territory.

Mr Wise:

-Does not the honorable member think that the Department of Home Affairs has bitten off, so tospeak, as much as it can chew ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes. There, again, we have too much concentration. One man is supposed to dealwith the establishment of theFederal Capital, the erection of a small arms factory, and a hundred and one other matters. The sooner we press into the service some of the firstrate ability of the world, the better. I am not underrating the men we have. I should be sorry to underrate a man like Colonel Owen, whom I believe to be clever, able, and industrious ; but he is struggling to do too much, and the sooner he is relieved of some of the detail of his office the better for the country and all concerned. He is paid much less than he is worth, and whilst he is a very able man, with the problems we have before us, we need a lot of able men. We have in the Northern Territory an area as large as two or three of the countries of Europe, and we have sent up there to look after it a man who is receiving a salary of£650 a year.

Mr Thomas:

– He has to manage 150 miles of railway, and he receives £650 a year.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does not the honorable member think that while that officer may be an excellent traffic manager, he mayyet know nothing of these problems? We do not expect a traffic manager to discuss theories of engineering and’ surveying. This officer may be doing excellent work, and yet be totally unfit to report on the question of railway facilities for the Territory - We need for this work one of the best engineers, and with him a first-class surveyor, with a wide knowledge of country. Two or three such men should have been appointed twelve months ago and set going with all theresponsibilities and authority that could have been given to them as a Royal Commission. By this time they would have been ready to make a progress report. This work will have to be done, or the Minister’s proposals will mean nothing. Youmay put down your farms in various districts, but until you know whether you can have railways there what isthe good of putting them down.

Mr Thomas:

– One of them willbe where there is a railway already in existence.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then why was it not set going long ago? It seems to take some of these Departments a couple of years to lookround before making ‘a start with anything.

Mr.Thomas. - The Estimates are not even passed.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– What have they to do with this matter ? The honorable gentleman might anticipate the approval of this Parliament in regard to any reasonable scheme for spending money on this Territory with a view to its development. We need not to discuss politics, but to do something. This is about the tenth policy we have discussed in respect of the Northern Territory and Papua.

Mr Webster:

– That ought to be enough.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member has been in the Northern Territory for about twenty-five minutes, and he has, of course, a complete territorial policy to put before us.

Mr Webster:

– The honorable member was not even game to go up there for that length of time.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– But I think I know as much of it as some of those who did visit the Territory. I have no faith in my ability to study problems like those now before us by hurrying over the country on horseback. I believe that I can learn as much by reading, and should like to hear some sort of agreement among those who visited the Territory. One of them is perfectly certain that agriculture can be developed in the Northern Territory, and another is equally certain that it cannot.

Mr Webster:

– With plenty of money, as the honorable member knows, we can develop anything.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– And what we want in this case is a little money, a little initiative, and a little vigour infused into the administration of the Territory.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– We want some common-sense.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I ask the honorable member to suggest what those commonsense methods should be. Commonsense will be of no service unless it is first applied to the multiplication of facilities for opening up the country.

Mr Webster:

– I am told that there are millions of money in England waiting to be poured into the Territory as soon as we open it up.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member is trying to be sarcastic, and the role does not suit him. We know that he is always in deadly earnest. I am not suggesting that he has not tried to apply his mind to this problem, and the douche of cold water that we may expect from him’ presently is not perhaps a bad thing. We cannot do better than look at these matters from all points of view, but there are some things that are fundamental and preliminary to all others, and in this case they have been admirably sketched for us this morning by the honorable member for Grey. Railways and a knowledge of the country are the two first requisites. Let us set to work an experienced surveyor and a railway expert, and we shall begin to solve this troublesome difficulty. First of all we want to know how the proposed railway will meet our defence problem - for this, after all, is not merely a problem of settle- ment, but a problem of defence. The question of railway gauge will, therefore, have to engage the attention of the Government at any early date. An interjection wasmade by the late Minister of External Affairs as to what the gauge was to be-

Mr Poynton:

– It is practically settled, since we have adopted a 4-ft. 8½in gauge in the case of the other transcontinental line.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– But is a railway of that gauge to be carried into the Northern Territory? Surely that question ought to have been settled before now by the Government ? Yet when it was mentioned last night by way of interjection, whilst the Minister was speaking, it was brushed aside as a mere trifle that meant nothing. As a matter of fact, it is one of the most important of the preliminary considerations. . When we have determined what is to be done for defence, as well as for settlement, we can develop onthe lines sketched by the Minister. We can then begin to breed our horses and freeze our sheep. Itis useless to commence freezing operations until we know that we can get to market the produce so treated. I believe that it costs from £25to£30pertontocarry stores to some of the stations, and it would cost just as much to get their produce to the coast.

Mr Webster:

– Instead of freezing sheep, they “ frizzle “ them up there.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– No; these freezing establishments will be the salvation of the Territory, and it is very desirable that we shoulddetermine the best places at which to establish them. That, again, cannot be determined until our railway policy has been sketched. Thirteen months have elapsed since the Territory came over to us, and do honorable members think that the Minister has yet sketched for us an outline of proposals that will help to lift this incubus from our shoulders, and make the Territory a source of strength, instead of weakness, to Australia? I ask the Minister whether during the forty years of government of the Territory by South Australia there has not been accumulated a series of proposals that will help him? Were the papers relating to the Territory transferred with the Department to the Commonwealth, or do they remain hidden in the South Australian archives? If there are no such papers it seems to me to be a strange reflection on the South Australian Government, and on all its efforts to develop this Territory, of which we have heard so much. The Department of External Affairs having had to do with this matter for thirteen months ought to be in possession of all. the knowledge that is available in South Australia. This ought to have been freely sent over with the Territory, and, on the basis of that, we should surely have had a more bold and statesmanlike proposal for dealing with the Territory than the mere trumpery details furnished to us by the Minister last night.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- At this late period of the session, and with the evident anxiety of honorable members to close the proceedings-

Mr J H Catts:

– Some of them.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The honorable member,, like myself, is more anxious to perform his duty to the country than to get home. But, having regard to the anxiety I have mentioned on the part of a number of honorable members - quite a natural “feeling at this festive .season, and a feel.ing to which >I was quite “prepared to defer «by adjourning over the Christmas holidays, and resuming work afterwards, as most men outside have to do - it ds rather unfortunate that we should be called upon to deal! with a question of such vital .importance when it is impossible to get the time :to look into it properly, to study the reports that have been presented to us, or to come ‘to anything like a satisfactory con.clusion .upon the ‘Minister’s utterance. Hurried debates of ‘this character are -not ^calculated to solve difficult questions. tff we cannot have time to read through the Minister’s pronouncement, we are placed at a disadvantage. Such a condition of things might be tolerated on smaller matters, but it should -not prevail on -questions ‘of such vast importance as this is. I am not in favour of slumming the work of this Parliament. I believe in work being well done. If only a little is done, let it be done well. To put a let of work through is no credit to any Government, ‘but to put even a small portion of work through well is creditable to those who do it. My motto throughout life has . been to do well the work, whether much or little, that I had to do. That is a consideration, that applies to both parities in Parliament. Public business has -not been given by Parliament of late years that consideration which it was wont to -receive in years ‘gone by.

Mr Cann:

– Whose fault is that?

Mr WEBSTER:

– It is the fault of the system that is growing up.

Mr Sampson:

– Because we want to legislate on everything.

Mr WEBSTER:

– It is not only a question of legislation. We want to interfere in matters that might often be well left alone in the public interest. We have, rightly or wrongly, taken over this great Territory, and many members will live not only to regret what they did in this connexion, but to remember what others indicated as likely to be the result. I listened last night to the Minister expounding his policy, and I must say that I was in no way struck by the grand ideal to which, according ‘to him, we are to look forward. T do not agree with -many of the men who %ave been there, nor do I agree with many of those who have written about the Territory. The ; honorable member for Par.amatta remarked that he was dependent upon reading (for his information, and I, -too, have read pretty largely on the ques tion. In addition, I went there to see as much as I could see, to hear as much as it was possible to hear, and to learn as much as was available to be learned on a trip of that character. . It was not a question of running round on a pleasure trip. It was a matter of trying to gather information from all available sources. It was not with me a matter of accepting everything I saw. I was at pains to interview the men who came in on that auspicious occasion when the GovernorGeneral was the magnet of attraction. He drew from the interior of the Territory to Port Darwin people who had never been in for years. They were there for us to interview, men who were not prepared to give a .flowery show to those who went there, men who were not like the tin-miners of the West Arm, who had got ‘all their best blocks of mica schist built up like a wall in order to show the magnificent prospects of the .tin-mining industry in the district. Any man could see that this display had been preparing for months and months in order to impress the members who made the tour, and results since that time have proved it. ‘One would have thought, to see the walls built up of square blocks, with, as it were, their best face to London, that the whole of the West Arm adjacent to Port Darwin was a mass of mica schist- containing nothing but tin. We had to take exhibitions of that kind with a grain of salt, as any man would who knows the world. The Minister, and I say this with all respect, does not comprehend what he is talking about when he speaks of putting a railway down from Pine Creek to the Katherine River. I travelled through that country, and had my eyes open, except when the dust caused me to close them. I remember looking for what I could call a tree, and I discovered nothing in the nature of a tree until about half way, where there was a lagoon in which the water collects in the wet season, and is retained for some period of the dry season. There a Chinaman or two was trying to .grow a few vegetables to relieve people from the possibility of scurvy.

Mr Sampson:

– That was a river.

Mr WEBSTER:

– It was at one time, but not when we were there. There was a gentleman on the bed of the creek, experimenting. Some of our people thought he was suffering from some kind of delusion. He had a little pumping plant that he had imported, and on the bank he was growing tomatoes and other delicacies.

That was the only spot I saw where water was available between Pine Creek and the Katherine River. All I can say is that I arn very sorry that anybody should put forward a proposition to build a railway from Pine Creek to’ the Katherine River for the purpose of opening up an agricultural district. I am told that, in the first part of his. speech, the honorable member for Parramatta described the place as a land flowing with milk and honey. If he did, he is as far astray as the others. I never saw a bee there, or a bee’s nest in a tree. The bert illustration we can have of whether it is or is not a land .flowing with milk and honey is the f act- that the natives of the country , are now, and have been for centuries, . . deteriorating and diminishing in numbers. -

Mr Poynton:

-At Daly River the honorable member will see as fine aborigines as are to be seen anywhere.

Mr WEBSTER:

– There are spots where they collected specially to meet the honorable member and the rest of the party who went there. Not only were the white people of the- country drawn to the magnet of the Governor-General’s party, but even the black- men were brought in. The best types of black men that could possibly be produced were put on show. In fact, the best, both of human and other exhibits, that the country could provide were put forward. We cannot judge what a country produces when only the best side is shown. You must look a little deeper to find the reality, and not be misled by displays arranged for the purpose. There are fine specimens of the human type among the black people of the Territory. There certainly should be, when we remember that for centuries they have been selecting the best of their species, and preventing the inferior types from reproducing themselves. They have been practicing that system which is advocated to some extent amongst civilized nations, but in their cases the compelling reason has been necessity. We should, therefore, expect to find in a large territory. of that sort samples of robust manhood and womanhood.

Mr Fisher:

– This sounds rather like an ethnological lecture than a -speech on the development of “the Northern Territory.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I am. dealing with the people who had to live in the Northern Territory long before we took it in. hand. Any one who reads the history of the Territory without bias or prejudice will recognise that for years past there has been a gradual deterioration and reduction of it* population. There are two things that cause the reduction of the native population of. a country. One is the decimation brought about by civilization, and the other is the want of natural food. The real cause of the practises adopted by the nativesof the Northern Territory . to restrict the growth of population, long before, the whiteman went. there, was want of food. Thecountry is unlike the northern part of Queensland .or some of the islands adjacent thereto,, which abound in yams and other natural food. It has no root foods, and it has little in-the way of. animal. food. There were kangaroos there, and I believe thereare still some, .although, from what I can- learn, they are fast passing away. Rabbitswere present in the olden days in abundance in one part;of the Northern Territory,, but they too, like the natives, have practically,, ceased to exist. Such food as is available for aborigines in other parts of Australia is not available in the NorthernTerritory to-day.. The honorable member for Illawarra will agree with me that there are splendid flocks of ducks that fly from lagoon to lagoon, and I saw millions of cockatoos, but .the ducks seem to be the- main food of the native population.. We have first to realize the nature- of the Territory we have taken over ; and . this can be judged by the number and character of the primitive inhabitants, and the prevalence or otherwise of animal and bird life. A subject of this kind should not be dealt with in a haphazard way, or from the point of view of the government of settled countries under normal conditions. Last night, when the Minister spoke of the establishment of an experimental farm, I asked him, in a perfectly innocent and friendly way, whether it would ‘ not beadvisable to postpone the- construction of a railway until he had seen the district proposed to be traversed. That interjection was replied . to with an insult, the Minister retorting that such an inspectionas that proposed would be about as useful1 as the Postal Commission, or words to that effect. Such an attitude is not worthy of a Minister of the Crown when friendlyadvice is offered; and. I can only saythat, if the Minister and his colleagues- make of the Northern Territory what the Postal Commission endeavoured to make of the Post and Telegraph- Department, they will perform a work of which they may be proud. The-‘ honorable member for Parramatta asked the Minister whether it was proposed to adopt the 4-ft. 8j-in. gauge for the proposed railway, and the reply” was that that gauge had been adopted for Australia. We must remem>ber, however, that if a 4-ft. 8£-in. gauge is adopted for the proposed railway, we shall have to rip up the whole of the line from Pine Creek to Port Darwin ; and this will mean that the reconstruction «of the line will cost more than the extension to the Katherine River. Railway building in the Northern Territory is not the same kind of work that it is in countries with which we are better acquainted. For instance, if wood sleepers were used, ihe white ants would not allow them 10 remain long enough on the land for the first engine to run over them. Anything in the shape of wood is devoured by this voracious pest ; and, therefore, the sleepers will have to be of either iron or reinforced concrete, both of which are expensive. It is of no use declaring that we are going to do this, that, and the other. We must know how we are going to carry out the proposed works, and whether their success -will warrant their construction. I have no hesitation in saying that if we attempt o establish an experimental farm in the district mentioned - I do not know what kind .of farm - disastrous failure must reSult, the expenditure of money being the Only thing that will be assured. To think of establishing farms in such a district is the wildest dream, and I do not know whence the idea emanated. It has been asked what has been the policy of the South Australian Government - whether “they have tried to prove the productivity of the land during the last forty years. Has the progressive Government of South Australia done anything in that time which we can take as a guide? The question is unanswered. The only thing I know of that the South Australian Government did was to spend enormous sums of money on *the Port Darwin Botanical Gardens. The expenditure was not in hundreds, but in thousands, and it certainly is an object lesson of what can be done with unlimited means. The gardens afford evidence of what is possible under . favorable conditions, but they are no guide as to what can De done under normal or commercial conditions. During our visit to Port Darwin we were driven through these gardens, and Our attention was directed to a grove of cocoanut trees which, in the distance, looked beautiful. I wondered why we were not driven through the shade . of that grove; and, subsequently, when I took a walk in the gardens, I found that’ there was hardly a tree that was not riddled by the white ants ; indeed, it was possible to see through some of the trees, and to even walk through others. .This is the result of attempting to override natural conditions. The enemy proved too strong even for the South Australian botanical authorities.

Mr Mathews:

– I thought the white ants would not tackle a live tree.

Mr WEBSTER:

– As a matter of fact, the people at Port Darwin cannot grow a geranium unless it is in a kerosene tin, and kept off the ground. If the tin is put on the ground, and it rusts in the slightest degree, the white ants get through.

Mr Chanter:

– Is this not true of only a small part of the Northern Territory?

Mr WEBSTER:

– I travelled a few hundred miles in the Territory, and my experience was, that the only difference between one district and another is that the ant-hills are of different shapes. In the days to. come, when millions of money have been spent in trying to do what cannot be done in the Territory, it will be remembered that there were those of the present day who had the courage to say what they thought. What object have I in saying what is not correct, or in misleading honorable members? I should be unworthy of my position here if I did anything of the sort. I am merely telling honorable members what I know to be true, in order that’ both sides of the question may- be presented. We were told by the Minister of External Affairs that the South Australian Government had already proposed a railway from Pine Creek to the Katherine River, and that there were plans, and so forth in existence. I can well understand that to be the case, and if I knew the date I could tell honorable mem-, bers the reason. At one time exploration was- being made in an attempt to test the mineral wealth of the Territory, in view of evidence of gold in payable quantities. When foreign capital was being introduced into the State by hundreds, of thousands of pounds to develop what were supposed to be rich gold shows, the South Australian. Government no doubt thought it wise, as the Western Australian Government, recently -did, to construct a railway to the site of the supposed mineral belt. Between Pine Creek and the Katherine River you see what is left of these -mining ventures. Eldorados of British investors who spent their money to their sorrow. In the light of experience, I say that there is nothing to justify the extension of the railway to Katherine River.

Mr Mathews:

– Would it not be part of the through line ?

Mr Thomas:

– The main line will follow that route.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Surely it is not proposed to zig-zag the connexion with Oodnadatta in order to serve the Katherine River ? This question is too big to be dealt with in a few minutes, andI hope that the Minister will not do much until he has visited the Territory. In the next Parliament he should be able to put forward a policy based on his own observations, and on those of the members who accompany him to the Territory, as well as on the information of those on whom he relies for guidance. We shall then be in a better position to discuss the policy, and to determine the best methods for getting a return from our expenditure. I voted for the taking over of the Territory merely because I recognise our responsibility for providing for the defence of the whole continent; but, in my judgment, the continuation of the line from Pine Creek to Oodnadatta will not be an advantage from the defence point of view. It will traverse country which no invading army could march across. That country is now a protection to us, but if it were crossed by a railway, the hordes of Asiatics whom it is said are seeking an opportunity to invade Australia could take possession of the- northern end, and transport their forces down to the civilized districts, attacking us in the rear, as well as from the front, possibly. I recommend honorable members to read the South Australian reports, and look at the South Australian maps to obtain information regarding the character of this country, and then to make up theirminds as to how it compares with other parts of Australia.

Mr Mathews:

– It is worse than the Canberra country.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I did not vote for the Canberra site, but the Canberra land compares with this land as gold with copper. I have given a considerable amount of study to this subject, and I ask honorable members to read the reports carefully, distinguishing between those written at the order of a Government and those written purely for patriotic reasons, to throw light on the nature of the country. The Minister says that there are to be no freeholds in the Northern Territory, but, in any case, no one would be likely to spend money on acquiring freeholds there. At the present time there are men who hold fortytwo-year leases there at is a square mile. The Minister can hardly give more liberal terms than that, unless he is going to build houses, and pay men for settling in the Territory.

Mr Fisher:

– Payments to induce settlement are not impossible as a policy.

Mr WEBSTER:

– It will be necessary to offer great inducements to settlement.. That has been done in other places, where men of muscle, not possessed of money, have been got to prove the possibility of the land. No doubt parts of the Territory could be irrigated, though at some cost. There are lagoons miles in length, and so deep that they have not been bottomed, caused by rocky bars in what: should be rivers. They make natural reservoirs, such as do not exist in other parts of Australia, and are not frequent in any other part of the world. Given a suitable climate, land, with water, will produce almost anything; but, of course, irrigation means expense. The Minister should ascertain what the land hear these lagoons is capable of, what is the depth and nature of its soil, and what are the most profitable crops which could be grown upon it. That is where he should spend money on agricultural experiments, because the expenditure is likely to give a profitable result. In the back-blocks of Australia in the early days, no one thought of acquiring freeholds. Men do not seek freeholds until districts have been developed, and proved to be worth something-. It must not be forgotten that there was a time when South Australia put no restriction upon the immigration of aliens into the Northern Territory, when it was open to Malays, Asiatics, and other coloured people, and yet. they did not try to develop or to take possession of it.

Mr J H Catts:

– The coloured people who came to the Territory were brought there chiefly in connexion with the construction of therailway.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Yes.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Where are the cattle ranches ?

Mr WEBSTER:

-Further south. They are on that part of the Territory marked on the South Australian maps as pastoral country. I do not know how many cattle it runs to the mile, but I do not think it runs any to an acre. South of the tropical country, where there is a rainfall of from 8 to 10 inches, there are strips of cattle country, which, like similar country in the other

States, may ultimately produce grasses which will not interfere with the profitable rearing of sheep. That country covers only a small area compared with the whole Territory. What we have to ascertain is what is the proportion of good land in the Territory to the land which is said even by the geological advisers of South Australia to be useless? Is there any indication that even the coloured men in the Territory have a desire to develop the country. There is ample scope and opportunity for them to go on the land. For years, it has been available to them at is. per mile, but we find them either living in the centres of population or fossicking round the old mining plants on which many thousands were expended years ago. Most of them are in business, and they are all degrading the native population that comes within their reach. There is no evidence that the productivity of the land is attracting them from Port Darwin. These coloured races, who have devoted themselves with much success to cultivation in other countries where the land is good, have not availed themselves of the opportunity to take up land in the Northern Territory. I do not wish to speak further at this stage save to say that I have been induced to make these observations bv the statement of the Minister, and that I offer them in good faith to him. I urge the Government to hold their hand before they attempt to apply to the Northern Territory a policy that may not be applicable to it, although it has operated successfully in other parts of Australia. When we enter upon the work of developing the Territory let us clearly understand what we are going to do, and how we are going to do it. We have a right, not only to have an outline of the scheme, but what I may describe as complete plans and specifications, so that we may know what is actually propounded in the way of a developmental policy. Until we have that complete information we should hesitate to spend any large sum on development works. Meantime we may take steps to police Port Darwin and any other part of the coast where a landing might be effected by an enemy. As a matter of fact, I do not think that an enemy is likely to attempt to land in the Northern Territory until we have a railway stretching down to the south. An enemy that desires to take Australia will land further south where there is something to be got. Let us do what is necessary, however, to “ police “ the coastline for

Customs purposes, and to keep an eye onwhat is being done by the people of adjacent countries. A large proportion of the coastline, particularly in the extreme north, is very muddy, and there are only certain points where a landing could be effected. But wherever it is possible for an enemy to land there should be an effective “ policing “ of the coast. I hope that the Minister when he visits the Territory will make careful observations, and that he will endeavour as far as possible te make independent inspections. Those interested will show him, as they did in our case, the best side of everything, and, if he does not look further afield, he will come back with a wrong view of the possibilities. Let him interview some of the old men who have been in the Territory for many years. There are unfortunately not many of them. Men do not stay there very long. Two or three of those whom we saw have since’ left, but the Minister should seek information apart from those who are specially interested in urging an expenditure of money up there. Let him make careful inquiries, and let him remember that he has to decide, not only what expenditure should be proposed, but what we are likely to get as the result of that expenditure.

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

.- The question of the peopling of the Northern Territory is of the utmost importance from’ many points of view, and particularly from the stand-point of the defence of Australia. I have to confess to a sense of disappointment with the statement made last night by the Minister. I listened carefully to his speech, but did not hear him submit any new proposition, or outline any bold policy of development. The proposal to extend the railway to the Katherine River does not meet the position. The honorable member for Grey was absolutely correct when he said that the proper way to develop the Territory is to extend its railway system, since land settlement is sure to follow the provision of railway facilities. We ought not to blame the Minister altogether for his failure to bring down a bold policv of development, for I do not think he has in his Department an officer capable of framing such a policy. To my mind, the Territory is being administered by the wrong Department. The surveyors, engineers, and other officers who would be of material assistance to the Minister in this work are under the control of the Department of Home Affairs, where, under Mr. Scrivener- - who is not only an able surveyor, but a man of many parts, possessing an intimate knowledge of land matters in New South Wales and other parts of Australia - we have the nucleus of what should prove a very valuable branch of the service in securing information for us in regard to the Northern Territory. I trust that the Minister will recognise the necessity, of classifying the land in the Territory, so that we shall not have repeated there in years to come the mistakes made in other parts of the Commonwealth. I hope that land peculiarly fitted for agriculture and closer settlement will not be disposed of for pastoral purposes, so that the Commonwealth, later on, will have the experience of some of the States, and be put to the expense of resuming areas suitable for closer settlement. I was one of those who visited the Northern Territory some two or three years ago, and I took the opportunity to see all that I could within the limited time at our disposal. I joined the riding party to which the honorable member for Grey has referred, and travelled in that way a considerable distance. After all, however, the extent of country that we were able to visit, and not without considerable inconvenience to ourselves, was very limited as compared with the Territory as a whole. I am glad that the Minister proposes to visit the Territory, but if he thinks that he will be able within sixteen days to obtain a knowledge that will fit him to frame and carry out a developmental policy, he will find that he is making a big mistake. He will probably “make a few excursions in the vicinity of Port Darwin, and go down to Rum Jungle, where an experimental farm is to be established. That, as the honorable member for Grey has pointed out, is not a very favorable position for the establishment of an experimental farm. I should have preferred to see one established on the Katherine River or the Daly River, where there is a vast extent of country.

Mr Thomas:

– We shall establish one on both rivers, but we are commencing with the establishment of one in a district which is already served by a railway.

Mr FULLER:

– It would be better to establish experimental farms where there are magnificent areas awaiting settlement. Such farms would enable the character of the country to be properly tested, so that settlers would be able to take up land with absolute certainty as to the purposes to which it could be devoted. I saw on the Katherine, the Adelaide, the Daly, and some other rivers that I visited, large areas of some of the finest land I have ever inspected, and I am satisfied that in years to come, those parts of the Territory will carry a very big population if we proceed with development on proper lines.

Mr J H Catts:

– I saw no such land on that part of the Katherine which I visited.

Mr FULLER:

– I journeyed up the Katherine by boat for 6 or 7 miles, and went down the river a number of miles on horseback. I saw right along the Katherine rich river flats, with fine country gradually sloping away from the river, so that it could be readily irrigated, and if so treated ft would become one of the most fertile portions of the world. We did not have an opportunity to visit the Barclay tablelands and other high portions of the. Territory, and I am not prepared to say what can or cannot be done with them. Whilst in the Northern Territory I had the pleasure of meeting the manager of the magnificent Wave Hill Station, who has resided there for many years, and we were told that that station was carrying between 70,000 and 80,000 head of cattle. I have seen in the Homebush saleyards cattle brought overland from that station, and they were as good a type of bullocks as any raised elsewhere in Australia. The honorable member for Grey has described the Barclay tablelands as within the temperate region of the Northern Territory. The honorable member divided the Territory into three parts - tropical, semitropical, and ‘temperate - and declared that, the Barclay tableland lay in the temperate portion. While I am satisfied that the tropical portion comprises magnificent country, with splendid water, I should like to have direct evidence that it is a fit place for white men to work in. We were there in the middle of winter, and I saw no white man doing labouring work of any magnitude in the open. I do not blame them for taking things easily, considering the tremendous heat that we experienced even in the middle of winter.

Mr Roberts:

– It is a feature of the tropics that a white man never works if he can get a coolie to work for him. When there are no coolies available, he does work.

Mr FULLER:

– In some of these places there was no black labour, but the white men did not appear to be doing much work. The temperature in the Northern Territory does not vary much during summer and winter. The great difference is that in winter the south-east monsoon blows - a comparatively dry wind coming across the continent - while in summer the north-east monsoon, which is heavily charged with moisture, and comes across the sea, prevails. The result is that the climate is moist in summer and comparatively dry in winter, although there is not much difference in the temperature. Even in the winter, with the dry wind blowing, one could not move a dozen yards without the perspiration rolling off him. Is that a fit climate for white men to work in? As to what has been said about Australian labour going there to develop the country, we cannot get Australian labour to do our work in the more temperate parts, and what inducement will there be for men to go to the tropical portions of the Territory to work ? The men who are engaged in work that has been spoken of as likely to be carried out in the Northern Territory would be very foolish to leave the more pleasant climatic conditions of the eastern and south-eastern parts of Australia to work in the tropics. In view of the small population of Australia and the scarcity of labour now existing, I see no possibility of any big exodus of Australian labour to the Northern Territory. Labour will have to be found in some other direction, and every inducement will have to be offered for population to settle there. The Minister referred to placing Russians on the land, but people who come from the cold climate of Russia are hardly a suitable class of immigrant for those tropical regions.

Mr Thomas:

– I am told that it is very hot ia Siberia for some months in the year, and that is where these men came from.

Mr FULLER:

– It is very hot at times in the summer on the south-western steppes of Siberia, but it is like the dry heat of the western portions of New South Wales.

Mr Thomas:

– If the Russians are willing to go, and think the land is suitable, we shall do our best to suit them.

Mr FULLER:

– I am afraid they will not find the Northern Territory a place where they will be content. As regards the Minister’s leasehold propositions, I remind him that, according to his own figures, South Australia some time ago had 186,000,000 acres in the Territory under leasehold, and that that area has now come down to 96,000,000 acres. The leasehold system therefore does not appear to induce many people to take up their residence in the Territory. If we desire to see proper development there, we shall have to give the people freeholds, and I hope ] there- fore, that the Minister will not bind himself absolutely to a leasehold system. The idea of experimental farms, with a Director of Agriculture and so forth, in connexion with this country, commends itself very much to my mind. It is absolutely necessary that money should be spent in this way in order to find out what the possibilities of the Territory are. The introduction of the refrigerator has turned places where, a few years ago, it was thought that dairying could not be successfully carried on, into some of the leading dairying portions of the Commonwealth. This applies particularly to land on the Richmond River, in New South Wales, and portions of Queensland. What has been done there can be done with equal success in many portions of the Northern Territory by the introduction of refrigerators and freezing machinery generally. I hope the Minister has paid close attention to the statement of. the honorable member for Grey this morning. He showed that the Minister was starting the business from the wrong end by extending the railway from Pine Creek to the Katherine River first. I hope the Minister will utilize in connexion with this matter the services of men in other Departments than his own. Surely some mutual arrangement can be made between Ministers in that regard.

Mr Thomas:

– I think it will be.

Mr FULLER:

– I wish to cast no reflection on the officers of the External Affairs Department, but they are not fitted by training or knowledge to cope with a problem of this sort. In the other Department to which I have referred, the very men required are available. The Chief Surveyor, for instance, is one of the most capable men in Australia in connexion with this specific matter. I trust, therefore, that in the interests of the development of the Territory, which is so essential for the defence of Australia, the Minister will utilize the services of all the suitable men to be found in the Commonwealth Departments. If those now in the Departments are not able to grapple with the problem, he should try to obtain what he wants elsewhere in Australia, or even in other parts of the world. For a number of years I have been greatly concerned about this part of the Commonwealth. No one who studies the map of the world, and understands the developments which are taking place amongst the nations of the East, can fail to realize that this is the vulnerable part of Australia. If we wish to keep Australia for the white races, we must spare no time or effort to get the benefit of the best ability available to show us the way to open up, develop, and people the Territory, for only in that way can we expect to keep it against invaders.

Mr WISE:
Gippsland

.- I do not think there is any matter with which we have had to deal this session of greater importance than the question of the Northern Territory. It is, therefore, much to be regretted that we have only the last day or two of the session in which to consider it. I thoroughly endorse the view put forward by the honorable member for Grey this morning. I was greatly disappointed with the Minister’s proposals last night. It is not that they were not right so far as they went, but that they did not outline a great scheme for the’ development of this country. The Territory has been trifled with for many years past, but when it came into the possession of the Commonwealth .we understood that the trifling was at an end, and that we were to start out on some definite policy for its occupation and development. Circumstances arose this year which to a great extent interfered with the consideration of a policy in that direction. For instance, the attendance’ of the late Mr. Batchelor, as Minister of External Affairs, was necessary at the Imperial Conference. That took him away during the months that he might otherwise have devoted to developing a policy for the Territory. We also know that the present Minister has been only a short time in office. I know from conversations with the late Mr. Batchelor that he had in his head an idea for a policy which he was developing after his return from England. That policy must have met with the approval of the Cabinet, and it is to be regretted that we have not been given some indication of what it was. It is of no use to put off the matter from year to year. Every year now is a loss of time for which we are responsible. I regret that no proposal has been put forward this year for extending the railway from Oodnadatta at least to the MacDonnell Ranges. It would be nothing less than criminal for the Government to neglect it in another session, and I shall be much surprised if we do not find a proposal made next session in that direction. So far as the question of the gauge is concerned, the proper way to deal with that railway would be to make the earthworks and bridges sufficient for a broad gauge, but to continue the narrow gauge in order that the existing 300 or 400 miles of narrowgauge railway and the rolling-stock now in use between Terowie and Oodnadatta may be utilized. It will be a pity if we are debarred from extending the line to the MacDonnell Ranges until we have torn up the whole of the existing railway to Oodnadatta, and substituted a broader gauge. That is an undertaking that might follow at a later period. In the meantime the principal thing is to open up and develop that country, and this can only be done by giving it railway connexion. If there was ever a territory where railways should go in advance of settlement, it is this. The MacDonnell Range country has been spoken of by all who have visited it, and especially by Professor Spencer, as a very fertile region, and by geologists as full of mineral wealth. The present railway, for which we are responsible, and the cost of the working of which we have to bear, ends practically in the desert. If a line be carried on to the MacDonnell Ranges, it will not only prove a paying undertaking, but will open up a vast area of mineral and pastoral country. It is gratifying to hear the views of honorable members, who know the Territory, confirmed by the honorable member for Illawarra, especially after the speech of the honorable member for Gwydir, who did not disclose any policy of his own, but whose policy might be put into two words - “ stinking fish.”

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

.- I regret that an important question like this should be introduced at this late stage of the session, when it is impossible to give that attention which is necessary to the solution of the great problem of founding a new settlement - a problem that no Parliament in the history of Australia has had to face. The Northern Territory forms about one-sixth of the area of Australia, and its development, by means of white labour is something that has not been attempted in any other part of the world. We shall have to introduce a special class of legislation, because we cannot expect to settle this portion of Australia on the well-worn lines followed in the southern and eastern States. I have visited the Northern Territory, and have seen the mineral belts and the areas where experiments in growing cotton and tobacco have been tried. In company with the ex-Leader of the Labour party, Mr. Watson, and several others, I visited, on horseback, the regions further south near the Katherine River, and the

Daly River, and .had an opportunity to form a fairly good estimate of the character of the country. In my opinion, this part of the Northern Territory will carry the largest and densest population. The Minister laid before us proposals of an eminently practical character; but the two fundamental essentials of settlement were omitted, namely, a comprehensive scheme of immigration and the grant of freeholds to the settlers. The only hope, for the north is dense settlement and intense cultivation.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not think that freehold can be granted under the Constitution.

Mr SAMPSON:

– I am satisfied that without freehold we shall not have that intense cultivation which is necessary.

Mr Thomas:

– England has not been developed by freehold.

Mr SAMPSON:

– England is about the most backward country in the world in regard to land settlement. The interjection of the Minister is unfortunate, because the one weak spot in our Anglo-Saxon civilization is that there is not the close settlement of other countries. The problem that should have been tackled in Great .Britain long since is that of the land. It is because of the landlordism in England that land values have fallen £500,000,000 or £600,000,000 in the last thirty or forty years.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.30 p.m.

Mr SAMPSON:

– Ever since my trip to the Northern Territory, and before, I have, like other honorable members, taken a very profound interest in its future. Experience will show that the difficulties now in front of us have obtained in no other part of Australia. If the Northern Territory had been similar to other States in its grazing and agricultural capacity, no Government assistance would have been required in the initial stages. Each of the other States has been settled first by the enterprise of the people themselves, who have subsequently been assisted by the Government with public works, which began almost at once to pay. In the Northern Territory, however, the Government will have to expend money in order to induce people to settle there. The South Australian Government made heroic efforts without showing anything like reasonable headway, and their expenditure of .£3,500,000 is an instance of failure unparalleled in any other State of the Commonwealth. This is not altogether because the South Aus tralian Government have failed to provide means of communication. Had the grazing country been such as to attract private enterprise and capital, it would have been practicable to have freezing works on the sea-board ; and a large export trade would by this time have been centred at Port Darwin, as large stock especially might be travelled reasonable distances.

The Northern Territory will have to be developed by white labour in a way to make it productive, and that can only be accomplished by providing large public works in the initial stage. No proposal is made to institute a system of irrigation and immigration, and the leasehold tenure is not likely to induce permanent settlement, as is proved in every part of the world. No country has been a success on leasehold tenure ; and where the freehold system, which is really, as we now have it, a modern institution, is in operation, we find the most intense cultivation and the latest scientific methods. As I said before, the Minister’s interjection in regard to land settlement in England is most unfortunate. When Mr. Chamberlain, in 1905, promulgated his great Imperial preference policy, there ought to have been side by side with it a complete reform in the land laws of England. We are told by the Protectionists that the fall of values in the Old Country is due to a Free Trade policy; but, in my opinion, the land tenure is one cause. Free Trade also materially contributes to this result. We have only to cross to Ireland to observe at once the effect of the two systems side by side. It is not long since the Lands Purchase Act was passed ; and during the last eight or ten years the Irish farmers have ceased, in most instances, to be the tenants of absentee landlords, and are rapidly acquiring the freehold of the land they cultivate. Fourfifths of the peasant farmers at the present time in the richest portions of Ireland are gradually acquiring the title to their lands ; and this has brought about a transformation in the methods of agriculture. There have been no more encouraging signs of permanent prosperity in Ireland during the last two hundred years than can be observed at present, owing to the statesmanlike policy of the British Government.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– They do not say that in Dublin !

Mr SAMPSON:

– I venture to say that it is said all over Ireland. There is more hope of contentment and prosperity in Ireland now than there has been for the last two centuries. Nations, it has been proved, can only permanently progress after a system of freehold tenure has been established as is proved by the history of France and of Germany. In the latter country, with poor agricultural land, very little headway could be made with cultivation until the German Parliament established freehold tenure throughout the Empire. However, we need only to refer to New Zealand, where leasehold was established at the commencement of the closer settlement movement some years ago. In the Dominion, 75 or 8o per cent, of the cultivators desire to acquire freeholds, and a majority in the House of Representatives is pledged to make these titles freehold. Where land is scarce and desirable, the people are glad to take it under any title, but after they have made it productive, and placed on it permanent improvements, they wish to get the most secure title possible. Coming back to Germany, that country has made immense strides in agriculture during the last thirty years, and so, too, has France. This is due almost entirely to the security of tenure which the people of those countries enjoy. In France 48 per cent., or nearly half, of the cultivators own the soil which they till.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Their farms are mortgaged up to the hilt.

Mr SAMPSON:

– Where the land is mortgaged it has probably been given as a security to the Government, under the Credit Foncier system, and there need be no fear as to the ability of the owners to ultimately redeem it. One of the most extraordinary features in the progress of Germany ,has been the agricultural development of the country ; whilst people are leaving the congested manufacturing centres, the agricultural population is increasing. There, 35 per cent, of the people own the land that they cultivate. Great Britain is the foremost country in the world in commerce and manufacture, but only 10 per cent, .of the farmers of England own their own holdings. Because Great Britain has failed to solve the land problem, she is importing to-day probably twice as much as she would need to import were her soil used to the best advantage. In Great Britain the cultivator stands to the landlord in the same position as it is proposed that he shall stand in the Northern Territory towards the Crown; but the experience of New Zea land shows that even Crown leaseholds are not considered satisfactory. The conditions to be faced in the Northern Territory are most difficult, and yet it is proposed to give only leasehold tenure, which will not attract desirable immigrants wishing permanent possession.

Mr Riley:

– We might give the system a trial.

Mr SAMPSON:

– Every man has a right to hold’ his own theories of legisla-t tion, but Parliament cannot ignore the teachings ot history.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– What advantage is there in owning land which is heavily taxed ?

Mr SAMPSON:

– The difference between a rental and a tax is this : the rental is imposed, and has to be paid, whether it is needed by the State or not, whereas the tax is imposed only to provide revenue to meet the requirements of government. Every citizen, of course, is responsible for his share of the cost of government. The Minister thinks that railway construction is most necessary for the development of the Northern Territory. Something else is wanted as well. There is already a line from Port Darwin to Pine Creek, a distance of 145 miles, which hasdone nothing to induce settlement.

What is needed is an extensive system of water conservation for the purposes of irrigation. In the Northern Territory; the rain falls chiefly in December, January, and February, Port Darwin getting from 60 tf> 70 inches, and the rainfall steadily decreases until it is only 19 or 20 inches in the district 400 or 500 miles to the south of that place. Such a rainfall; confined chiefly tothree months of the year, is not sufficient for dairying under these conditions. We should take example by what has been done in India. There are many books on Indianirrigation, but that published about twenty years ago by the Leader of the Opposition has been described by the most eminent authority on irrigation in Australia as being the most able, exhaustive and complete on the subject. The Indianirrigation system has grown since that book was written, and there are now 43,000,000 acres of land under irrigationin that country. Of this area, about 1 7,000,000 acres are served by Government canals, 2,000,000 by private canals, 6,000,000 acres by tanks, 12,000,000 acres by wells, and 5,000,000 acres in other ways.;

Of the population of India, which num- bers 300,000,000, 200,000,000 are supported directly or indirectly by irrigation.

Mr Webster:

– On rice.

Mr SAMPSON:

– There are a dozen crops, yielding as much in money value as rice. Jute, for the making of bags, and hemp, for the making of rope, now grown in India, ought to be grown successfully in the Northern Territory. The northern part of the Northern Territory is mostly mineral country, but between the belts of mineral land are districts in which it should be possible to grow cotton - we saw cotton growing wild - and there are places where coffee can be grown. On the Adelaide River, and on some of the other rivers, we saw large flats which could be irrigated and used for ricegrowing.

Mr Webster:

– With salt water?

Mr SAMPSON:

– No, with fresh water. The tide has no influence at a point below Beatrice Hills. There are thousands of acres on which rice could be grown. Probably enough rice could be grown in the Territory to meet the requirements of the Commonwealth.

Mr Webster:

– What did we see at Beatrice Hills?

Mr SAMPSON:

– We certainly saw the ruins of some coffee plantations, but in the work of developing a country many experi- ments have to be made, and some are sure to fail. There seems to be a fear on the part of some persons that although we have in the Northern Territory land suitable for the production of cotton and rice, We cannot hope to cultivate it in successful competition with the cheap coloured labour of other countries. I have, however, sufficient faith in the genius and industry of the Britisher to believe that we are capable of devising machinery that will enable us to cultivate these tracts of country, and to harvest such crops in a way that will enable us to compete with cheap labour. We can grow both cotton and rice in the Territory, and we have also there large belts of auriferous country suitable for the production of jute and hemp in large quantities. I feel confident that Targe areas will be devoted to the production of such crops, and that the inventive genius of the Britisher will enable us to compete with the cheap labour productions of other countries. Below that belt - along the Roper, the Katherine, the Daly, the Adelaide, and the Victoria Rivers - we have splendid opportunities to store immense quantities of water which would enable us to irrigate large areas of land on which progressive and closely-packed settlements could be established. We have opportunities there to carry on the dairying and other industries, and there is no reason why we should not be able to have large freezing works busily engaged there. It will be necessary, however, for us to grow artificial fodders to maintain sheep further north than they are at present. There seems to be a good deal of misapprehension as to the reason why only a comparatively small number of stock is carried in the Northern Territory. As a matter of fact most of that stock is carried by areas some hundreds of miles south of Port Darwin, where the rainfall is less than it is in the north, and where the fodder is consequently sweeter and more nutritious. The denser settlement of the Territory will take place north of that area. It will be within the area served by the rivers, some of which I had the privilege of seeing when I visited the Northern Territory, and which are in every way suitable for vast irrigation schemes. It is unfortunate that the Minister, before discussing the question of policy, has not seen fit to engage the most eminent engineer available, and to instruct him to traverse the Territory and report upon the whole future of water storage and irrigation there.

Mr Webster:

– One engineer would not be sufficient.

Mr SAMPSON:

– Let him appoint whatever experts are necessary. We have in Victoria a gentleman who might well be appointed to such a position, and there are also in other States engineers experienced in irrigation works. Let us secure the services of the most eminent engineer, and obtain from him a comprehensive report as to the possibilities of water storage and irrigation within the Territory. The fodder now grown in parts where the rainfall is very heavy, and takes place within the space of a few weeks is altogether too rank for the fattening of stock, and it will be necessary to sow down, after cultivation, large tracts of country with artificial grasses. In that way alone shall we be able to secure a large population, and the growth of artificial fodders must be promoted by means of large irrigation and water-storage schemes. The Minister should, first of all, have brought down a report as to the possibilities of water storage and irrigation, not only along the large rivers, but, as in India, by means of tanks and wells. There are large subterranean water supplies in various parts of the Territory, and if wells were sunk, and the necessary machinery erected, we should be able in that way to supply many thousands of acres as cheaply as could be done by means of river irrigation schemes. When I was travelling through Queensland I went from Townsville to a place called Ayr, where a sugar plantation is being carried on by Messrs. Drysdale Brothers. There I saw water drawn by machinery from lagoons, and also from1 the sand by means of spear pipes, and in that way these gentlemen were carrying on a very successful system of irrigation.

Mr Thomas:

– Is the honorable member advocating irrigation at present in the Northern Territory?

Mr SAMPSON:

– Most decidedly. We shall have no successful land settlement on a general scale unless we have an adequate system’ of irrigation. Such a scheme must be thoroughly mastered and undertaken by the Government simultaneously with a system of railway construction. This is a. matter to which the Government should attend during the recess, so that when we are called upon next session to deal with the question of policy we shall have full information concerning the possibilities of the country supplied, not by mere theorists, but by experts who have had a large and varied experience of irrigation in various tropical countries, and more particularly in India.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I confess to a feeling of disappointment that we have not had submitted to us a vigorous, policy of development in regard to the Northern Territory. Whether we have made a good or a bad bargain in taking over that Territory, the obligation of developing it, and of bringing it into close communication with the south, is undoubtedly imposed upon us, and it was because I took that view that I supported the transfer to the Commonwealth. Apart altogether from the peculiar advantages that the Territory may offer us, as the open door to Australia from the East, it must be controlled by the National Parliament. For that, if for no other reason, it is above all things necessary that it should be brought into such close contact as modern methods will allow with the southern parts of Australia, where the population is chiefly settled. Even if we never succeed in populating the country, that work is necessary so that we may have ready communication with a vulnerable point of our coastline. For these reasons I deplore the failure of the Minister to suggest any vigorous step in advance. I was one of those who visited the Northern Territory some two or three years ago, and whilst I have not one word to say against an extension of the existing railway to the Katherine, as proposed by the Minister, I recognise that it is just , at that point that we get into the good country. The proposed extension will certainly be a step in the right direction, and the Ministry are certainly not remaining idle in this matter. I realize that the preliminary steps proposed are absolutely essential, and that action is being taken to explore the country, and to provide for scientific investigation. We have on these Estimates an item of .£3,000 in respect of exploratory work, and also an item of £2,000 for scientific research, whilst provision is made for special expenditure amounting to £5,000. All these are necessary preliminaries, and it is quite possible that only by superhuman effort could more have been done. I have my own doubts, however, as to the best having been done to develop the Territory, and I believe that, apart from the outstanding obligation to link up the Territory with the rest of Australia, that Territory is going to pay. As I have already mentioned, whether the bargain be a bad or a good one, we must shoulder the responsibilities associated with it. I am inclined to think, however, that we have not made a bad bargain, and that the Territory is a land of great potentialities. Although, like the honorable member for Gwydir, I was a member of the parliamentary party that visited the Northern Territory, I do not profess consequently to know all about the country. At the most, I do not suppose that we covered more than 300 miles in a direct line, and we could rarely see more than 100 yards on either side of us. We saw something of the mineral resources of the Territory, but there is yet much to learn concerning them, and I, like the honorable member for Parramatta, have had to add to my knowledge of. the Territory by reading. I am satisfied that we have there resources that are, at least, going to pay very good interest on the money we are expending, even if they do not make it possible to thickly populate the country. I hope that we shall be able to make the Northern Territory not only an outpost of, but a very important section of, our community. The honorable member for Gwydir is much prejudiced against it, and has not a good word to say for the whole of that vast area. He went so far as to assert that_the natives were perishing, and that even native animals were dying out, because they could not get sufficient to sustain themselves. Unfortunately, the natives are dying out only where civilization has reached them. Further out things are much better. The honorable member made far too much of what little race suicide is practised among the natives. One feature the honorable member overlooked was the abundance of wallabies in the scrub. The best answer to the attitude adopted by the honorable member is the fact that the swamp buffalo of India which were brought there some forty years ago and left at Port Elizabeth by the settlers who vacated the place, have multiplied by hundreds of thousands, and roam the whole of the far north as they do the American prairies. Herbivorous animals of that sort will not exist and multiply in a drought-stricken country. If the country had been as bad as the honorable member portrayed it, these beasts would not have increased so enormously. An immense trade has been conducted in hides for many years, and still the animals are there in plenty. This proves that the country cannot be a desert waste. The honorable member for Wimmera emphasized the necessity for freehold tenure and irrigation. Irrigation is a good thing, but in view of the rainfall of the far north, there is less need for it there than in some of the more arid portions down south. The rainfall is quite good enough to warrant considerably closer settlement in the north than now exists, and later we may deal with the irrigation question, but the Erst and foremost essential is a railway. Particularly when dealing with a new country, the very best system possible is one of long leases at nominal rents. The honorable member for Wimmera sought to buttress his argument by instancing the fact that the leasehold system had proved a failure in older countries, but he forgot to point out that that was a system of leasehold grafted upon freehold. In those cases the country was freehold, the Crown first granting a freehold title to certain large land-holders, who, in turn, exploited the rest of the people, making them pay dearly for the privilege of using the land as tenants.

Mr Sampson:

– There is the same objection to leasehold in New Zealand.

Mr CARR:

– I admit that there are objections to a leasehold system, one being that values are likely to increase, and the first lessee to become a sort of middleman, appropriating the unearned increment and getting big rent from sub-lessees. That exists in New Zealand to-day, but over and above all is the fact that, with a leasehold system, the Crown comes into its own periodically, and that is a good thing when the Crown means the people, as it does in a Democracy. The honorable member was dealing with a state of things that led to the ancient feudal system, and that, in France, culminated in the Revolution. That is a condition we desire to avoid. It is very difficult to control the freehold system. Moses was amongst the first to try it with his year of jubilee, when the land reverted to the original owners. We could vastly improve the present system of tenure, and, if we are to maintain our position as the owners of the Northern Territory, our best plan is to give long leases at nominal rents. Let the men who go pioneering there have twenty years’ terms if they like, and let the Commonwealth run the risk of local developments putting land values up against it. In any case, that will be better than alienating the land outright, and allowing all the publicly-created value of the future to go into individual pockets, instead of returning to the people as a whole. The policy I advocate is safer and sounder, and will hasten, rather than retard, development. It is cheaper for a man to take up large areas of land at a nominal rent, with security of tenure and tenant-right to improvements, than to pay capital value for the land, exhaust his funds in becoming a freeholder, and borrow to make improvements. With the Crown as landlord, I would much rather take up land in the former than in the latter way. There is no comparison between the advantages of the two systems to a man who is genuinely out to use the land. Of course, it is a case of freehold every time for the man who is out to secure the benefit of the publiclycreated value. While the freehold system exists, those of us who believe in leasehold must accept it, but that will not prevent us from advocating the introduction of the leasehold system when dealing with new areas, as these are. The honorable member for Wimmera referred to the rainfall as being from 19 to 20 inches up to 500 miles inland. I believe that is substantially correct, and therefore the possibilities of the country, much of which is good, virgin soil, are tremendous.

Mr Sampson:

– Nineteen or 20 inches of tropical rain is not the same as 19 or 20 inches falling at proper seasons of the year.

Mr CARR:

– Tropical rains mean tropical products, but I do not consider 20 inches a tropical rainfall. At any rate, it will give enough water for the settler to do a great deal in the way of close culture, especially with the system of dry farming now prevailing. Connexion with the south is absolutely essential for our safety, apart altogether from other economic aspects, and I regret that the Government have not been bold enough to raise as much money as is required for the purpose. ‘They are raising ,£130,000 merely to pay interest. It would be much better to raise £1,000,000 to put down the line, and so get something back for our money. The Barclay tablelands alone would show such an increase in value as would return interest on the money expended on a line of that sort. In” any case, good or bad, win or lose, we have to do it. It is our burden, and we cannot escape it.

I wish to discuss our position in the Pacific, and our control, such as it is, of conditions obtaining in the Islands. The conditions in the Pacific demand the close attention of the Commonwealth. Australia, as a Commonwealth, is very different from Australia as States. We speak as a Commonwealth with, at any rate, the voice of a small nation, and as part of the British nation, we can speak with a very strong voice indeed. There is what is as yet only a small cloud on the political horizon in the shape of the encroachment of Japanese throughout the Pacific. I am not a scaremonger, nor do I share any racial hatred of the nations of the East. I rather admire the Japanese and the methods they are adopting to secure the ultimate domination of the Pacific. If Japan is to become a great power, it must be by achieving control of the Pacific, and she is doing this in. a diplomatic, well-thought-out, strategic way which will, perhaps, not become apparent to the world until it is too late, so far as we are concerned, to remedy the evil. In the Sydney Morning Herald of 2nd December appeared a cable stating -

An article in the Morning Post dealing with the announcement that the Foreign Office is discussing the rectification of the boundaries in Africa with France suggests the desirableness of including the Pacific within the scope of the friendly re-arrangements.

Britain, it points out, is risking the chance of being placed in an awkward position in regard! to the New Hebrides by some action of the Commonwealth, which would lack the tolerance necessary in negotiations with foreign Powers.

The article suggests a conference with France upon Pacific matters, at which Australia and’ New Zealand would be represented.

The Herald, in commenting upon this,, says -

Not long ago a movement was started in New Caledonia for a transfer from French to Australian control, and this had the support of many French residents, who had formed the opinion, that a change of this kind would be in the best interests of the colony. The movement was not persevered with ; some doubts were even cast upon its iona fides; but at any rate it opens the door to the belief that France may be willing: to entertain proposals for the termination of dual control in the New ‘Hebrides.

The Condominium has long been regarded as most unsatisfactory, and as possession of the New Hebrides means much more to Australia than to France it is not unlikely that the Foreign. Office may be able to secure an adjustment. The substantial proofs of friendship given by GreatBritain to France during the Moroccan crisishave established such excellent relations betweenthe two countries that a more favorable time than, the present for a “ readjustment “ in the Pacific could not be desired.

I heartily concur in those statements. In view of Japan’s position, our Government should take some definite steps to approach) the British Government with a view to secure some say as to the nature of the population of the Pacific Islands, particularly the New Hebrides. Japan is extending her tentacles throughout the Pacific, and we can counter only in regard to the New Hebrides, as our sphere is limited. According to the census of 1900, there were in Hawaii, out of a population of 154,000 no fewer than 61,100 Japanese. That is one of the centres of the Pacific - I suppose the most desirable point from which to direct operations, and the best naval depot in the whole of the ocean. To-day, it is estimated that actually one-third of the total population of 240,000 in Hawaii is Japanese. I am now pointing out what I conceive to be a deep-laid strategic plan to secure domination of the Pacific, to which end Japan must annex Hawaii as a naval dep6t. Amongst the Japanese there are 30,000 trained soldiers, who go as coolies, and doany sorts of work, apparently with the full connivance of their Government. There is the full knowledge on the part of Japanthat^ when the time comes, and the word is given, there will be in these centres men who can be called to arms at a moment’s notice. They are, in fact, at present an unarmed army ready to strike whenever Japan is ready. I connect these facts with New Caledonia because events in both places indicate the trend of the Japanese policy. New Caledonia is only 800 miles east of Queensland, and 1,000 miles north of New Zealand ; and the nickel mines there already employ some 2,000 Japanese, with the possibility, according to information at hand, that next year another 1,000 will arrive. The nickel mines, although in a French possession, are largely owned by British shareholders ; and this is another evidence of the fact that big vested interests seem always prepared to sacrifice their country for the sake of profit. Hawaii is sold to Japan in order that those who are specially interested in the cultivation of sugar and so forth may have cheap labour, and the same sort of thing is going on in New Caledonia. I admit there are many public spirited men who do not approve of this state of affairs ; and I am glad to say that the Americans are livening up and fortifying Hawaii. We must take up an attitude similar to that of Japan ; and, if possible, acquire control of New Caledonia. A special commissioner from the New Zealand H erald was recently sent to New Caledonia; and he reports that some 2,300 more Japanese are expected during the next twelve months - that is more than I understand - and that many of these are engineers, bridgebuilders, masons, carpenters, and other skilled men. New Caledonia has a fine harbor and a coal-field, and would fit in very well with the general scheme on the part of Japan for the control of the Pacific. If she can secure New Caledonia by peaceful annexation, she will find herself, when the time is ripe, in an almost invulnerable position. These and her other schemes may lead to her domination of the Pacific, and of Australia. For these reasons, I urge the Government to take some cognisance of the suggestion made by the Morning Post, and see whether, through diplomatic channels, Great Britain and France cannot arrange to bring New Caledonia, and all the New Hebrides, under the purview of the Commonwealth, and thus enable us to thwart what is undoubtedly the intention of that power, which, of all the Powers, is likely to be the enemy of Australia in the future.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

I am certainly not satisfied with the policy submitted by the Minister; and, unless something more is intended than what has been indicated, I think it is a pity we took the Territory over. Primarily, at any rate, the leaders in the development of this portion of Australia should be Australian born and bred men. I believe it would be most advantageous if we could have 100 or 200 prospectors, well led by geologists or mining managers, to explore the mineralareas, because the discovery of some well-defined gold-bearing reefs would lead more than anything else to the attraction of population. If the mineral resources are to be developed, we shall have to take steps similar to those taken in Western Australia. In that State investors have not been content to remain at Kalgoorlie or Coolgardie, but, from time to time, have sent out bands of prospectors, with the result that further fields have been discovered. There are in the Northern Territory similar belts of country to those which are found to be gold-bearing in Western Australia, and similar methods will have to be adopted. I hope that the Minister, as an old miner, will realize that one of the best ways to give a fillip to population will be to send out prospectors in the way I have suggested. The pastoralist and agricultural interests of the Territory would be best served by sending there those men who have assisted in the development of north-west Queensland, western New South Wales, and even portions of the Territory itself. It would, I think, prove a profitable enterprise if we were to spend even a considerable amount of money in sending out such men as leaders in the promotion of pastoral and agricultural interests. As to the railway, I should like to see it constructed, not only from the Oodnadatta end, but from the Pine Creek end towards the centre of the Territory. I am glad to know that Mr. Francis, the engineer appointed, in addition to his qualifications as a railway expert, knows something of engineering in connexion with cool storage. This gentleman had to do, I understand, with the establishment of cool storage works in connexion with the railways, and I hope his varied qualifications will prove of advantage. I agree with the honorable member for Wimmera that the establishment of freezing works furnishes one of the best means of developing this part of Australia. The reports made not only to the South Australian Government; but to the Commonwealth Government, are agreed as to the possibilities of the

Northern Territory ; and I entirely disagree with the doleful and long-faced message delivered by the honorable member for Gwydir this morning; in fact, I cannot conceive of an honorable member actuated by patriotic feelings indulging in such language. ‘ The Northern Territory, magnificent as are its possibilities, must be developed on progressive lines ; and the Government will be largely judged at the next elections by their policy in this connexion. I hope that, in their own interests, and in the interests of the country generally, apart altogether from party, a vigorous developmental policy will be pursued. The Northern Territory is contiguous to some very promising markets amongst the Eastern races, which are now beginning to adopt Western methods in dress and diet. We should be able to send our commercial agents to the East, and, I believe, develop a great trade. The Northern Territory contains country tropica,], sub-.tropical, and temperate, where almost anything can be produced. With those wonderful possibilities, it would be a lasting disgrace to this Parliament if we did not insist on the Government inaugurating a bold policy, such as I shall be always found ready to support.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There is one suggestion not yet made, which would, I am convinced, prove the solution of this great problem. Honorable members opposite have now an opportunity ready-made to hand, to demonstrate to the world the practicability and beneficence of their policy of State Socialism. Here is a magnificent Territory.^ as large as two or more Continental countries, and there are, I believe, some 6,000,000 Socialists in the world. What the Northern Territory requires is population ; and I suggest that the Minister of Home Affairs, who is a strong Socialist, should invite the whole of the 6,000,000 of his brother Socialists to immigrate. They could administer the Territory entirely in consonance with their own doctrines, and give an object-lesson as to the way in which all government should be carried on in connexion with production, distribution, commerce, and so forth. The Minister of External Affairs, assisted by the Ministerof Home Affairs, might get these millions of people to the Territory, and show the world how a Socialistic State should be run. This is the grand opportunity for which Socialists have been waiting so long. They have nothing to do but accept the invitation of the Government. They can then occupy the Territory, pass their own laws for their government, draw on their own people for revenue, produce for the common good and not for profit, and nationalize the means of. production, distribution, and exchange. Students of economics in all countries would view the experiment with the greatest interest, and its success when demonstrated would induce the benighted peoples elsewhere to follow the shining examples set to them, and adopt the Socialistic methods preached by honorable members opposite. The experimental Socialistic failures of the centuries that have passed have not convinced those honorable members of the futility of their doctrines, and they should therefore take this opportunity to demonstrate the practicability of their theories. It would be a great relief to the rest of the world if the 6,000,000 Socialists in it could be brought together and put down in the Northern Territory.

Mr Riley:

– What about the single taxers ?

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There are not enough of them yet. Besides which they do not, like the Socialists, regard the accumulation of wealth by individuals as wrong, nor do they regard capital as a bugbear. I wish to speak now of a very important matter - our relations with the. Pacific and its development ; and I am sorry that the Prime Minister is not present, because he should be au fait with the subject, and able to give us a statement of the position. The opening of the Panama Canal is now a matter of months only, and when it comes the commercial importance of the Pacific will be very different from what it has been in the’ past. As the relations between Great Britain and her chief Continental trade rivals are now friendly, the attempt should be made to come to an amicable understanding with them touching the control of the Pacific, and particularly with France in regard to the control of the New Hebrides. The situation will become the more serious the longer it is neglected. In a cablegram published in the Argus on 2nd December, headed “ New Hebrides ; Who Shall Control ? “ the following statement occurs : -

A special article appears in the Morning Post to-day dealing with the. announcement that, the British Foreign Office is discussing the question of the rectification of boundaries in Africa with France. The suggestion is made by the writer that it would be desirable to include the Pacific in the scope of the friendly negotiations. “Great Britain,” he says, “is risking the chance of being placed in an awkward position in the New Hebrides by some action of the Commonwealth of Australia, which would lackthe tolerance necessary in negotiations with foreign powers.”

The article suggests the holding of a conference with France on Pacific matters, Australia and New Zealand to be represented.

I strongly recommend that suggestion to the consideration Of the Government. Australia and New Zealand should be consulted by the British authorities, with, a view to securing the preponderance of British influence and control in the Pacific. The rivals of Great Britain are gradually extending their outposts, and in the near future foreign naval bases will probably be dotted in the track of our commerce all over the Pacific. This is a matter to which I have on many occasions invited attention, but to which the significance by the Government is not attached which its importance demands. If we wait much longer it will have become too late to prevent many groups of islands or individual islands passing under foreign flags. I hope that we shall long continue on the most friendly footing with the great naval powers of the world ; but trade rivalry is so keen that the present understanding is not likely to continue indefinitely, and while it is yet possible to do so, we should take every precaution against future danger. I hope that the Government will give some thought to this matter. There should be something in the nature of a Commonwealth Empire policy for the Pacific.

Mr Thomas:

– The matter has been brought before the British Government time and again.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The British authorities appear not to be thoroughly alive to the seriousness of the question. It is increasingly apparent that the great naval battles of the future will be fought on the Pacific Ocean, and we should do all we can to insure the continuance of our safety, and the effective policing of what will shortly be one of the busiest ocean highways of British and Australasian commerce. I wish to know whether the Government has considered the advisability of increasing the salary of the High Commissioner. Those of us who have recently visited Great Britain are painfully aware that his present remuneration is inadequate. I hope that in framing the Supplementary Estimates the Government will take the matter into its consideration, and, recognising that the prestige of the Commonwealth requires that its representative in London shall be given a salary which will enable him to maintain his position in a manner worthy of its importance, will increase his. remuneration.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– - Some of the speakers on the Northern Territory question have been optimistic, and others pessimistic ; the truth probably lies in the mean between the extremes. South Australia undertook the development of the Northern Territory forty years ago, in a spirit of the brightest optimism, with the result that the Territory is now practically unoccupied, being notable chiefly for the smallness of its population and the largeness of its debt. I was a member of the parliamentary party that visited the Northern Territory, and I endeavoured to see as much of it as the facilities -afforded us .would allow. As the result of that visit, I have come to the conclusion that two great causes prevented the consummation of South Australia’s hope with respect to the settlement and the development, of the country. The first was its endeavour to carry on the work of settlement by Asiatic labour. The presence of Asiatics in large numbers, who went there not to assist in building up a progressive community, but to get as much as they could, and to leave as quickly as possible, prevented white labour taking any substantial part in the work of development. The hopes of those who were engaged in exploiting the Northern Territory by means of Asiatic labour have been slowly dissipated during the last ten years. Asiatic labour is gradually being reduced, and the Commonwealth is in the happy position of being able to enter upon the development of the Territory on the basis of white labour. My observations have led me to the conclusion that it is possible to develop the country only by white, rather than by Asiatic labour.

The next barrier to the progress of the Territory under the control of South Australia was that in order to encourage the introduction of capital, the State Government offered land for pastoral, agricultural, and mining purposes on exceedingly easy terms, and upon long leases. Not only were the rentals very low, but the conditions were most elastic. In the hope that the Territory would soon carry a large population, a number of men speculated in agricultural, mining, and grazing areas to such an extent as to shut out the late comer, and to block a good deal of settlement that would otherwise have taken place. The Minister has intimated that there has recently been a considerable reduction of the area held under pastoral leases, but that reduction is in respect of the more speculative leases that do not cover a very long tenure. In some cases, leases extending over forty years, were granted by the South Australian Government, and the rental conditions were very easy. These leases may be divided into three classes. The first comprise those in respect of which there is a uniform rental over the whole period of forty years, and they cover an area of 64,400 square miles. The second are also for a term of forty years, and have yet at least twenty-nine years to run. They are subject to reappraisement every seven years, and carry a rental of from 6d. to 2s. per square mile. The area embraced by them is 12,300 square miles. The third class of leases are somewhat similar the only difference being that the rentals range from is. to 4s. per square mile, and they cover an area of 10,400 square miles. In other words, we have a total of 87,000 square miles of pastoral land held at very low rentals, and covered by leases which have yet from twenty-nine to thirty-five years to run. A great part of the land so held is practically unoccupied. Some portions are used for grazing purposes, but there are no fences, and very little improvement in the way of water storage. Cattle are allowed to roam over them at will, and the holders practically depend upon nature to provide for whatever stocking they have done upon those areas. By far the greater portion of this land is held, not so much for grazing as for speculative purposes, and if the Government provide facilities that will attract a big population, the holders of these leases have the incremental right to these large areas, and hope to secure a very substantial profit on their speculations. I strongly urge the Minister to see to what extent these leases have been taken up for speculative rather than for developmental purposes, and to what extent they have been, and are likely to operate, against legitimate settlement. If he finds that they have been, and are calculated to be, detrimental to the progress of the Terri- ‘ tory, he should certainly remove the causes that have made for failure in the past, and which are likely to handicap his efforts in the future. I am told that this question of monopoly applies not only to grazing, but to mineral, areas. Within recent times the South Australian Government has given some attention to the remedying of this set of grievances, so that they are not so pronounced as they were some years ago, when development might have been expected. These difficulties, after all, are man-made difficulties, which the Minister can remedy.

I agree with the honorable member for Angas that if the’ Territory is to be developed it must have reasonable transit facilities. It must have railway and shipping facilities, and market facilities in the direction of the East. At the same time, I do not agree with those who think that the Minister should have come along and, as if by the waving of a magic wand, changed in a moment the whole face of the position. It would not be wise to make a big appropriation to carry out at this stage what might be thought to be suitable methods of development. The Minister is welladvised, in view of the substantial failures that have taken place, in “ ganging “ warily. He should be sure of his ground, and attempt development only along those lines that experience has shown to be successful. The Government should, first of all, extend the Oodnadatta railway to the MacDonnell Ranges, where, I am informed, there are good pastoral lands, that might be developed if railway communication were established. At present the Oodnadatta railway terminates practically in the desert, and if it were extended as I have suggested, it might contribute something towards its support. It is certainly an experiment that the Minister would be warranted in taking in hand for the purpose of developing the Territory. Then, again, in the north the Minister proposes to extend the existing railway to the Katherine River. That project is also worthy of consideration. So far as my knowledge of the country goes, it would seem to me that that line would traverse the western portion of the Territory, and if it is intended to continue it as part of the main trunk to link up with the Oodnadatta railway, there may be justification for it. On the other hand, it would leave out of account a considerable area that has been highly, recommended by explorers and travellers as worth development. I refer more particularly to the Barclay table-lands. Whilst the Minister has provided for the western portion of the Territory, he should also consider the desirableness of making an extension that will tap the Barclay table-lands. I believe that in the years to come, if this Territory is to be developed, there must ba two railway connexions - one going through the Katherine River country, and linking up the MacDonnell Ranges plateau with the Oodnadatta-Port Augusta line; and the other branching off from about Pine Creek, and extending eastward through the Barclay table-lands and down through the western part of Queensland. This would give every promise of successfully developing a big tract of country, and be of splendid strategic value in the defence of the eastern and northern parts of Australia. These matters are well worthy of the consideration of the Minister. I commend him for not rushing to the House with a flaring scheme in the nature of a big advertisement of the Territory. He is right in feeling his way, and endeavouring to discover the lines on which substantial developmental work can be done. When he discovers those lines he will be able to work along them.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– When will he find them, do you think, at this rate?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– He is starting to find them now. A beginning has to be made. I do not suppose the Minister considers himself inspired in these matters. He has to work out the different schemes as they present themselves, and obtain a knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages of the country. As the honorable member for Gwydir pointed out, one of the great natural disadvantages is the presence of the white ant, one of the biggest pests I know of.

The Territory was a white elephant to South Australia, which struggled manfully with it before handing it over to the Commonwealth. I shall still regard it, until its problems have been faced and solved, as a white elephant to the Commonwealth. If the Commonwealth cannot devise better means of dealing with it than South Australia did, I fear that our experience will be merely a repetition of the experience of that State. I should have been, much stronger in my opposition to the Commonwealth taking the Territory over had I not recognised that its development was an Australian, and not merely a South Australian, work, and that the burden of developing it should be spread over the whole Commonwealth. Each State should bear its fair share of the cost, because it is part and parcel of Australia, and we cannot allow it to continue a no-man’s-land. It faces the East, and is the back door of Australia. Unless we occupy it I am sure that the Asiatic races, who are now feeling the pressure of population, will be compelled to turn their eyes towards it. Nothing could be more disastrous to the future success of Australia as a white man’s country than to have a considerable portion of it occupied by the coloured races of the East.

I would specially direct the attention of the Minister to the necessity for bringing the possibilities of Australia more prominently and generally before the great British public. We want population of the right sort, and I am satisfied that the Mother Country has ample material to meet all our needs in that direction. All that is necessary is to bring Australia and its opportunities prominently before the people whom we want. I was greatly surprised on my recent visit to England to discover how little was known of Australia. What little was known was rather a caricature than an actual representation of our position. Canada loomed very largely in the eyes of the British public, being extensively advertised all over the Kingdom and throughout the press. South Africa was behind Canada in that respect, but considerably ahead of Australia, which was almost a terra incognita. New Zealand was known quite as widely as the Commonwealth.

Mr Thomas:

– And all the ships bringing people out here are full.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– That is only quite recently. It is not enough to bring a few ship-loads of immigrants out. We must advertise our resources, find a ready market for our products, remove misconceptions, and create in the Mother Country a sympathy with us that can only come from knowledge of us.

I give every credit to the High Commissioner and his staff for the work they have done, and agree with the honorable member for Lang that we are not doing justice, either to Sir George Reid or to ourselves, in the salary we pay him, or the amount we place at his disposal to advertise the Commonwealth. We give him a small salary- as compared with what is paid to the High Commissioner for Canada, who, T am credibly informed, has been accustomed to spend quite double his salary out of his own pocket, as a patriotic Canadian, in order to bring his portion of the Empire prominently before the public.

Mr ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– He is a very wealthy man, which Sir George Reid is certainly not.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– Lord Strathcona is wealthy, having big interests in the railways and other public companies engaged in the development of Canada. Consequently, what he spends in that direction is, no doubt, returned in another direction. On the other hand, Sir George Reid has neither the wealth nor the monetary interest in Australia that Lord Strathcona has in Canada. He therefore cannot be expected to do the same amount of private work and private advertising.

When in the Old Country, I desired to have general’ news of Australia, but found it most difficult to get. The news that did appear in the English papers was, I understand, largely compiled by the Commonwealth officers, and related more particularly to immigration. I think we can create a wider interest in Australia that would help us commercially. Some scheme might be devised to transmit cablegrams of general Australian news, not necessarily political, to the Old Country, and have them inserted in the press. In that connexion, the present Government have done substantial work by subsidizing a press cable service here. This has been in existence for about twelve months, and a return was recently placed upon the table giving the result of its operations. It had to face, at the outset, the strong opposition of an old-established and exclusive cable service controlled by a strong combination in Australia. The return shows that the new service is participated in by ten or eleven dailies, five large bi-weekly and tri-weekly papers, and seventy-nine or eighty country papers, connected with the Country Press Co-operative Association ; while, owing to the cablegrams not being copyrighted, a number of other associations avail themselves of them. Consequently, a considerable amount of news is being distributed by this means that could not be distributed previously ; but one great factor which must not be lost sight of is the consequent development of the business passing over the Pacific Cable. The Pacific Cable has been in existence for about ten years. It was constructed by a combination of the Mother Country, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. The excess of working expenses over earnings amounts to about £60,000 per annum, towards which the Commonwealth has to contribute ,£20,000. As a result of the subsidy, there has been a great increase in the number of words sent through as press messages. For the vear ending 31st December, 1909, the num ber of press words sent over the Pacific cable was 21,631, whereas for the year ending 30th September, 19 11, the number was 463,7261 or an increase, as the outcome of the subsidy, of 442,091 words. In the case of the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, tha number of words sent during the twelve months ending 31st December, 1909, was 218,467, and for the year ending 30th September, 1911, the number was 220,214, or an increase of only 1,747. These figures, I take it, are ample justification of the subsidy, prior to which the Argus-Herald combination did very little of their business over the Pacific cable. The advent of competition, however, has increased the volume of the messages sent over the cable on behalf of those newspapers. The subsidy, instead of representing a loss to the Government, means, so I am credibly informed, a gain. The Government pay ,£2,000 per annum, by way of subsidy, and are receiving, as a result of the business done, something like £2,200 per annum. The Pacific Cable Board has had to fight against the established Eastern Extension Telegraph Company from the very first, and there is still strong hostility shown. A number of engagements have been entered into with the Argus-Herald Cable Combine, and these do not terminate for two or three years. For instance, there is an arrangement with the New Zealand press, representing two newspaper agencies, and several newspaper proprietors, who, under heavy penalties, are not permitted to take any news from any other source. The increase in business over the Pacific line has not been merely in press telegrams, but also in private messages ; the payment of the subsidy, and the publicity thereby given, having made the advantages of this line of communication widely known. In view of the development in connexion with the Pacific cable, I suggest that the Government should consider the advisableness of increasing the subsidy.

The other evening I brought under the notice of the Prime Minister the necessity not only of linking up with New Zealand, but also of linking up the Mother Country over the Atlantic. I then pointed out that a number of lines across the Atlantic had been syndicated to such an extent that there were now really only two competitors, which might at any time be amalgamated. If this octopus scheme be completed, the Commonwealth will be simply at the mercy of a huge cable Trust. That, of course, is undesirable in the extreme; and there ought to be an All-Red line not only between Australia and Canada, but across the Atlantic to England. This would give us an All-Red route, not merely in name, but in actuality ; and I hope that the Government will take this into their most earnest consideration, and lay before us in this regard a liberal progressive policy.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– 1 regret very much that any honorable member should cry “ stinking fish” with regard to the Northern Territory,’ or any other part of Australia, as the honorable member for Gwydir did to-day. In my opinion, there are great possibilities in this Territory, in which there is a large proportion of good country that should be populated at the earliest possible moment. The Minister and the Government have before them an enormous task; but I hope the honorable gentlemen will face it courageously. We have been told that this question will be dealt with on non-party lines, and that is just as it should be, and as I think it has been, with the exception of some indications of Socialism, which I venture to suggest must prove a failure if tried. All experiments of that kind have hitherto been disastrous; and it would hardly be safe for us to take the advice which was, jokingly, I think, offered by the honorable member for Lang. As to the white ants, I do not’ regard them as forming a very serious pest, if their habits are properly understood ; though, of course, they are a nuisance. At any rate, in spite of white ants, Queensland has developed, and is still developing; and there is no reason why the Northern Territory should not show similar progress. The policy outlined by the Minister last night seemed to me so feeble as to offer no promise of real development. We have to grapple with practical facts, and the difficulties to be overcome will require a much bolder policy. Freezing works, which are very good in their way, and an experimental farm, seem to sum up the whole scheme of the Government, though the Minister did say that in the distant future he proposed to consider railway construction when the Commissioner had reported.

Mr Thomas:

– I have given instructions for a survey to be proceeded with at once.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– There is no provision on the Estimates for the construction of a railway. However, the great need in this Territory is freehold tenure, for no scheme of leasing will have the effect of attracting population when so much freehold land can be had in other parts of Australia.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– People are “ rushing “ leasehold land in Queensland !

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I think the honorable member is wrong. There is a great outcry for freehold land, and the demand is being met as rapidly as possible. Except in a few isolated instances where large areas have been available, leaseholds have not been sought after to any extent. We should enter upon a bold railway policy. The construction of the transcontinental line may be too costly to be entered upon at once, but the country should be connected by the shortest routes with markets. Much of it is like a good deal of the western parts of Queensland, country capable of carrying a great deal of stock. Some years ago the Queensland pastoralists were almost ruined by droughts, it being impossible for them to get their stock away to other pastures. This trouble will not occur again, because the various trunk railway lines of Queensland are being linked up by a line which will serve practically all the country from Bourke to Camooweal, and if the Northern Territory were connected by an extension from the Pine Creek line to Camooweal, it would have an outlet for its stock and produce, and in the eastern States there would be a very good market.

Mr Wise:

– Such a connexion would not serve the central portions, near the MacDonnell Range.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– No. If the construction of the transcontinental line is necessary to serve that country, it must be undertaken, and I shall be willing to assist in tapping every part of the Territory which is worth tapping, but we should commence with the best. My experience leads me to think that the coastal districts are the best. The sum of £2,000, provided for wells on stock routes, is inadequate, and I should not have complained had the Government asked for a sum ten times as large. Pastoralists should be able to travel their stock from droughty districts to places where pasture can be obtained. We should not hesitate to spend money freely, though wisely, on the development of the Northern, Territory. If we do not, the country will be quickly overrun with rabbits and prickly pear. I do not disparage the value of the mineral wealth of the Territory, but the pastoralists must lead the way in the development of the country, and should be given every encouragement. I do not say that it should be made possible to speculate with the land, but its use should be encouraged in every way. Following pastoral occupation will come closer settlement, until, at last, the country will be put to the best use of which it is possible. As the population of Australia increases, the demand for meat increases. Cattle country is now being taken largely for other purposes, and it is necessary .to open up areas for the, cattlebreeder elsewhere. Such areas are to be found in the Northern Territory. We might also turn our attention to the cultivation there of tropical fruits, and cotton, as a subsidiary industry. On a small area we should produce enough for our own requirements. I wish to know why there is no vote for the British Association for the Advancement of Science? Last year we voted £1,000.

Mr Thomas:

– The passing of that item last year was regarded as proof that honorable members wished an invitation to be extended to the Association to visit Australia, and, consequently, the invitation was given, but no money will have to be expended until the scientists come here.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– The honorable member for Calare has spoken about the advertising of Australian possibilities in Great Britain and elsewhere, but the Minister will be well-advised to have regard to the interests of our exporters also. We are a large exporting community, and depend greatly upon our foreign markets. We desire other markets than those we now have, in order to have a larger demand to meet, and the Minister will be well-advised if he sees that our products are advertised judiciously, but freely, in other parts of the world, but particularly in Great Britain. I understand that an agent is to be appointed to represent our meat industry in London, and another officer might be appointed to look after other Australian produce, or the scope of the duties of the meat agent might be widened so that he could do so. Many false rumours are circulated by our competitors to damage the reputation of our products. The Irish people protect themselves from injury of this nature by employing a man on the spot, whose duty it is to follow up every adverse report with regard to their produce, and sheet it home. We might do the same thing, so that our produce might be fairly dealt with. From a pretty close connexion with the industry, I know that 90 per cent, of our butter loses its identity on the London market, only about 10 per centbeing sold as Australian butter. The Government goes to a lot of expense in grading this butter, but the benefit is lost to the producers, because the distributers in London hide its identity.! As to what was said by the honorable member for Lang regarding our concern with the Pacific, the Minister should lose no time in making representations to the Mother Country which will safeguard British interests there in every way. Some remarkable stories have been in circulation of late, which, if not tending to make one uneasy, should open one’s eyes to the fact that something is happening. Where there is smoke there is fire, and it is necessary to see that those whom we have as near neigh’bours shall not be undesirable neighbours..

Mr ARCHIBALD:
Hindmarsh

– To the friends of the Northern Territory, the debate that has taken place in these, the closing hours of the session, will be a source of much gratification ; and I am sure that honorable members will not regret the interest they have displayed in this question. Much, has been said regarding the failure of the South Australian Government to develop the Territory, but I think it is generally recognised that, for financial and other reasons, the Commonwealth has far better opportunities than South Australia ever had of doing justice to this very large province. Many charges have been levelled at the South Australian Government in regard to its inability Ito deal with this so-called white elephant. It must not be forgotten, however, that a large portion of the Northern Territory consists of tropical country, and that, in the opinion of many people, tropical production can be carried; on only by a subject race!, or persons in a state of slavery or semi-slavery. The very fact that South Australia declined to develop the tropical portion of the continent under such conditions, is a reason, which need not be enlarged upon, for the absence of a large white population there. The honorable member for Calare said that the Northern Territory laboured under a very heavy debt. As a matter of fact, until the South Australian Government undertook the construction of the railway there, and some harbor improvements at Palmerston, it was free from debt; and. as against the liability we have taken over, we have the harbor works and railways of the Territory to show. The remaining debt was incurred in connexion with the first steps taken some forty or fifty years ago to encourage settlement. Instead of pursuing a reckless policy, the State has always been cautions not to pile up a heavy financial burden, recognising that, sooner or later, . the Territory would be controlled by a National Parliament. It has been suggested that the absence of Ministers in London has had something to do with the failure to promulgate a more forward policy. Imperial Conferences and Coronation celebrations do not occur every year; and, to my mind’, it is by no means undesirable that our leading public men should visit London at short periods, in order to take part in the Imperial Conference. I regret very much the speech made on this question by the honorable member for Gwydir. He is a man of undoubted ability, intelligence, and industry ; but if the outside public gauge the value of his utterances on other questions by that of the speech which he delivered to-day, his reputation must suffer. The honorable member referred1 to the absence of gold-mining in the Territory. As a matter of fact, there has been a great deal of mining for gold, and the industry is still being carried on profitably at the present time. The backward state of mineral development is due to the fact that the fields have never been properly tested, and never can be until they are opened up by means of railways. We all know that gold can be won, but the question is whether it can be won at a price that will pay. The late Mr. V. L. Solomon, who was a member of the House of Representatives, and resided in the Territory for upwards of twenty years, often discussed this question with me, and told me again and again that the nondevelopment of the mining resources of the Territory was due to the absence of capital. Water is generally struck at a depth of joo feet, and the mining company that encounters the water difficulty must erect machinery to cope with it. The man who declares that there is no gold in the Territory merely shows that he is incapable of dealing with the matter in a fair and reasonable manner.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– What labour has been employed on die gold-fields?

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– Chinese, and other labour. As a rule, Europeans do not care to engage for work in the interior unless they have a reasonable prospect of a lengthy period of employment, and their return passages are guaranteed. The Northern Territory has always been a happy hunting ground for mining schemers. I do not think many Australian investors have lost money up there ; but numerous schemes have been put on the London market in connexion with which a large amount of capital has been subscribed and lost. As a matter of fact, we have a lot of valuable mining machinery lying idle in the Northern Territory to-day.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– There is a lot lying on the wharfs at Port Darwin that was imported but never taken out to the gold-fields.

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– It was brought out, but never placed in position. An idea got abroad that the prospects were not as good as had been represented ; but from our point of view, as intelligent Australians, mining in the Northern Territory has never had a fair show. Drapers, tinkers, and tailors are excellent men, but they are not mining experts ; and when such men pose as great mining experts, as I have seen them do in the West, we know what to expect. When mining development depends upon the reports of such persons, we must expect failures. The late Mr. Solomon told me repeatedly that the failure of mining development in the Territory was due to the fact that no company had ever had the pluck to cope with the water difficulty there. I have it on the authority of men who have spent years in the Territory that it is an exceedingly valuable country. It is true that the Government might have done more than they have done ; but a mere discussion of what might have been done w.ill not help us out of the difficulty. Our real trouble is that we do not know enough about the Territory. I should like to see a lot of money spent within the next ten years, so that we should be able, at the end of that period, to cry a halt, because we had ample information in regard to it. The Government ought to appoint a commission of inquiry. There should be on that commission a first-class engineer, having a knowledge of railway and harbor works, and a first-class surveyor, possessing also an intimate knowledge of pastoral and agricultural country. There are such men in the Crown Lands Office in Adelaide, and no doubt surveyors with a like knowledge are to be found in the Lands Departments of other States. There should also be on the commission a mining expert. These men should be allowed to travel the country- to make a thorough investigation - and upon the presentation of their report we should be in a much better position to deal with the Territory than we are to-day. A sum of £10,000 would go a long way towards paying the expenses of such a commission. Only first-class men - men with a reputation to lose - should be appointed to carry out this work of inquiry for us, and I am sure that they would supply us with information of a thoroughly reliable character. Whilst I should be the last to say anything about a commission consisting of honorable members of this House, I think that, in this case, we require a commission of experts. At present we have one set of men always condemning the Territory, and another set always praising it. I do not believe in going to either extreme ; but I think that we certainly have in the Territory a vast tract of country of very great value. If my suggestion were adopted, we should feel surer of our ground than we do at present. One reason why the Pine Creek and Oodnadatta railway lines should be linked up as quickly as possible is that such a work would not only develop the Territory, but enable us to obtain a quick return for our money. The wealth of Australia to-day is derived largely from cattle, sheep, and wheat. The production of cotton and other tropical crops is all very well in its way, but I should like a large sum to be spent in the development of the Territory along lines that would insure a reasonable prospect of an early return. It is my contention that wheat can be grown profitably in the Northern Territory.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Where?

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– In the Victoria River country. Questions have” been asked as to where the cattle stations in the Territory are to be chiefly found. They exist not at Palmerston, but further south, and the best are in the Victoria River country. There we have a lot of good land. The climate of the Territory is an assured one. A settler there knows, that, at any rate, by the end of November, the rainy season begins, and has to be put up with until the end of February. Certainty of climatic conditions means a great deal, because it is an unsettled climate that constitutes the greatest danger to those who are dealing in primary products. In Canada, a wheat crop can be raised and harvested in a hundred days. The late Mr. Batchelor was strongly of opinion that the same thing could be done in the Northern Territory bysowing the wheat immediately after the wet season.

Mr Thomas:

– We have received some good samples of wheat already from the Northern Territory.

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– A strong prima facie case can be made out for the growing of wheat there. One member of the commission would undoubtedly have to be acquainted with the country, and would be able to point out the parts where the work could be undertaken. If we can get a tremendous amount of wheat grown in the Territory, it will pay those engaged in the undertaking, and recoup us from a National point of view ; but we must have railway communication to shift the produce away. It is of no use to think of doing anything in that direction until the country is opened up by railways. No honorable member can dogmatize on the question of where the different railways ought to be run. That is not a political, but an engineering, question. We must be prepared to be guided by experts in all these matters, and the success we make of the Territory will be proportionate to our readiness to sink our own political views, and allow these men to guide us. A good deal1 can be done along the lines which I have indicated to the Minister, and I hope hewill do everything possible to demonstrate what the late Mr. Batchelor had no doubt of in regard to wheat production. The honorable member for Calare referred to the long leases granted in the Territory. I regret that they were granted, but honorable members can easily understand how it came about, with two members for the Territory urging the granting of long leases at low rentals, and the South Australian Parliament anxious to do everything possible tomeet their views. If the Minister looks into the leases, however, he will find that they contain certain important conditions. If the country is allowed to be monopolized, it will not reflect very much credit on the Minister or those who have control’ of the Territory, because when leases of that character are granted over great tracts of country, they generally contain conditions requiring the holders to give the country up or fulfil certain undertakings.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– They were not: carried out under the old Administration.

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– I have already honestly admitted that the South Australian. Government bit off more than they could chew, but the Commonwealth Parliamenthas not done anything of the sort. I admit that the task is a big one; but, as thehonorable member for Macquarie said, it is- a task which we have undertaken for good or for evil, and which we must carry through. We have possession of the Territory, and are bound to carry the responsibility. The next thing for us to- do is to make, not the best of a bad bargain, but the best of a good bargain. It will call for pluck, keenness, sound judgment, and the best information we can get to guide us. Those, however, are not qualities which greatly frighten Australians. We have had far more difficult jobs to tackle, and we can tackle this and pull it through. We must have sound information to guide us, in the first place, and we must have it in abundance. There is a great deal of work to be done before the Federal Parliament can say that it has had so much information about the Territory that it is sick of it.

On the question of the control of the Pacific, we are not in a position to know what transpired at the Conference in London between the Prime Minister of Great Britain, the Foreign Secretary, the Colonial Secretary, and Ministers of the oversea Dominions. If we wanted to know it, we should not be told, because, in accordance with the traditional policy of the Foreign Office, the communications were confidential. At the same time, by watching current events we can, I think, guess the trend of .the policy of the British Government on the Pacific question. It would be well if we could induce the people of Australia to look at the question from a diplomatic point of view rather than in the way in which it is regarded here at the present time. What happens now is that the average Australian is scared lest the Japanese should arrive in the Northern Territory, while another type of Australian laughs at the fear. The extension of the British treaty with Japan for another ten years is most significant, and cannot be regarded as unfavorable to Australian interests. It is difficult to know the merits or demerits of the Tariff agreement which the late Canadian Government endeavoured to arrive at with the United States of America; but President Taft has on more than one occasion voiced the desirability of the United States, Canada, and Australia controlling the Pacific. There is a great deal in that idea, which has occupied the attention of many public men outside Australia for a long while. It behoves us, as a Commonwealth, to do our utmost to bring about such an arrangement. It is equally obvious that British diplomacy is guided in all its actions by a desire to preserve the cordial understanding now existing between the British Government and the Government at Paris. There is no doubt that it will be many a long day before French and British troops, and French and British navies, face each other again as enemies. The whole trend of European affairs points to a cordial alliance between France and the Mother Country, and, that being the case, it is very desirable that in all the calculations which we make with regard to the islands of the Pacific we should recognise the fact that the Mother Country will always be prepared to treat very generously any claim put in by her neighbours, the French Republic. No intelligent Australian thinks it possible for us to carry out a foreign policy which is not in conformity with the policy of the Mother Country. We have, indeed, every reason to fall in with the views of the Mother Country in those matters, because I cannot recall any time when she has not been actuated by a desire to treat with justice any intelligent claim which has been put in by the people of Australia. We should do everything possible to bring about a recognition of the fundamental principle that the future .control of the Pacific must be in the hands of America, Canada, and Australia ; but we must always bear in mind that it is a matter for diplomacy. It cannot be expected that Australia and Australian interests and America and American interests should monopolize the whole Pacific, and so bar Japanese expansion.The right of Japan to a certain scope- for fair expansion will have to be recognised, care being taken that Australian interests are not detrimentally affected. The time has arrived for this Parliament to have something like a policy on these important world questions. We ought, through the proper authorities, to endeavour to ascertain the views of America on the Pacific question, and we can easily learn the views of France, so that there may be a cordial understanding between us all, and we may be fully prepared in case of eventualities with Japan. I never did have any fear of the expansion of Japan to the detriment of Australia, or the injury of Australian interests, but one of the worst dangers in- international politics is drift; and we ought not to drift on an important question of this kind. We ought to have a policy on which we can rely to guard our interests in every complication that may arise in London or in Paris.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am pleased to hear the note pf hopefulness in the speech of the honorable member for Hindmarsh. The biggest disappointment to me in regard to the Estimates is the small mining vote. There is one item of £1,000 “ to provide working in connexion with the establishment of Trust Fund - minerals account,” and ^£9,000 for prospecting for metals and minerals, and in aid of deep sinking, and purchasing machinery. Mining development is undoubtedly at the base of our success in the Northern Territory. We know what mining did for New South Wales and Victoria in the early days, and what it has done later for Western Australia. In a territory like this, unprospected and untried, there are greater potentialities than those discovered in any of the States. I am not speaking particularly of gold, for that is not so lavishly spread in the Northern Territory as elsewhere; but that is not to say that the wealth of the Territory may not be far greater than that of any of the States. We have ample evidence that there are payable minerals there, including gold and tin ; and wherever thereis tin we have the associated wolfram, bismuth, and so forth. The gamut of minerals runs over about 600 varieties ; and doubtless there are many in Australia of which we as yet know nothing. There is, for instance, radium, which will doubtless create Eldorados in this country. For men to calmly tell us that the Northern Territory is practically exhausted minerally is to show an ignorance absolutely pitiful ; and those who make a weapon of the fact that there is idle machinery lying about, know little of mining in, say, New South Wales. I know field after field where there are hundreds of thousands of pounds’ worth of machinery lying idle on mine after mine, because the whole of the development has been done on the surface, and the work then abandoned. It is the commonest knowledge in connexion with mining speculation, though not in connexion with mining development, that there is a tendency to float mines on big prospectuses, and to spend all the available cash on a big display of machinery without going into any detailed work. This has happened even in accessible places within recent years, and to condemn the Territory on that ground is sheer folly. One striking and undesirable feature in mining work in the Northern Territory is the presence of the “ Chow.” While the Chinaman can fossick for allu vial gold, at which he is a first-rate hand, the moment he is asked to go into the bowels of the earth he is a positive failure. When Korea was taken by the Japanese it was discovered that the mines would have to contain millions of pounds’ worth of mineral to pay, owing to the ideas of work being so crude. I am told by one who has had experience in the Territory that directly a mine gets to about, say, 100 feet, the work has to be abandoned, owing to the incompetence of the Chinese workers. Of course, if the mines in the Northern Territory had been ordinarily rich, no doubt smart miners from Queensland and New South Wales would have developed them, and many would have proved payable ; but they have been worked only on the surface, and any honorable member with practical experience knows that in a tropical country, if much of the surface is opened, the first tropical downpour brings in all the top, - unless it is particularly well safeguarded. One expert, whose word I do not doubt, told me that he saw several mines, which, after the richest ores had been taken from the top by the Chinese, had been left to collapse. I have earned my living at mining, and know something of the subject; and I declare that the Northern Territory, from a mining point of view, has been no more than hen-scratched in the most primitive manner. I urge on the Government, in approaching the question of mining development, to decide on a code of mining laws as soon as possible. I understand that up to the present we are operating under the South Australian law?

Mr Thomas:

– That is so.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am not acquainted with that law. I claim, however, to have a thorough knowledge of the mining law of New South Wales, and some knowledge of the Western Australian law; and my experience is that, up to the present, it has all been in favour of the big speculator, and against the prospector with the pick and shovel. If we desire to have new fields developed, we must encourage the intrepid working prospector. Any mining law adopted should be closely scrutinized, so that, as a beginning, absolutely fair play may be given to the worker. If I were going out mining into the Northern Territory, I should certainly wish to know under what conditions I had to operate, and what security the law gave me over any discoveries I might make. The Chinese have been allowed to mop up the easiest and most accessible minerals; and it is an absolute disgrace to the South Australian Government that this should be so, after the experience on the mining fields of Victoria and New South Wales. We had better have no mining development at all than permit this exploitation by Chinese, whose one end and aim is to make all the gold they can, and then leave with it for their native country. The presence of the Chinese has been one of the greatest curses to mining in Australia. Even on the New England fields, they have not only gained possession of the most accessible minerals, but they have established themselves as storekeepers, mineral buyers, and exploiters in general. 1 guarantee that if an investigation were made now, it would be found that the Chinese are the chief mineral buyers and exporters in the Northern Territory.

Mr Sinclair:

– It is remarkable that the places where these Chinese are always have Labour representatives.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The presence of the Chinese is the very reason that those places are represented by Labour men. Politicians of the same kidney as the honorable member for Moreton allowed the Chinese to get a hold when there was no Labour party; and it is only now that it is found possible to do anything to get rid of the trouble.

Mr Fuller:

– Who was it introduced the first anti-Chinese Act in Australia?

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am not sure.

Mr Fuller:

– It was not a member of the Labour party.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There was no Labour party then.

Mr Fuller:

– It was long before the Labour party came into existence.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have no desire to be unfair to those who came before the Labour party, but I had to give a true reply to the interjection of the honorable member for Moreton. The Northern Territory is in greater danger from this cause than any of the States, owing to its proximity to China and Japan. Of course, we cannot ask the Government to do more than their finances will allow ; but if the Territory is to be developed with anything like certainty, the legitimate miner will have to be supplied with batteries and crushing plant, and, above all, with concentrating machinery. It can be easily imagined that any mining discovery might yield refractory ore, which would cost a great deal to treat ; and, with the difficulties of transit, it would be almost impossible to export it in large bulk. A good concentrating plant, or several such plants, controlled by expert Government officials, should be established wherever needed, for the production of rich concentrates for export, until such time as smelting and purification can be done on the spot. I do not expect the Government to succeed in everything at once, but I desire that everything possible shall be done for the assistance of the miners. The next step is to see that they obtain fair prices for their products, and that the middleman is abolished. Those who have been engaged in mining for wolfram, tin, bismuth, and copper, know that it is a very different thing from mining for gold, because it is much more difficult to sell the result. In disposing of such minerals, one is in the clutch of the middleman. The Labour Government, being in sympathy with the real miner, the pick and shovel man, should become his agent. I do not ask that the miner be paid at once the full value of the mineral he produces, but he should be given an advance of at least 50 per cent, of its market value, and when the mineral has been exported to France, Germany, the United States, or England, and returns received, they should be paid to him, less a percentage to cover charges. Men cannot be expected to risk their- lives in tropical climates merely to fatten up middlemen. For many years, the Labour party has had in its platform a plank asking for the nationalization of all means for the maintenance of health. We advocate Government control of hospitals, and the appointment of Government doctors. This policy should be put into effect in the Territory. If the Government can guarantee intending immigrants that their health shall be looked after, it will do much to induce immigration. Miners are generally able to look after themselves well, and take a fewsimple medicines with them, but there are times when they become ill, and their mates can do nothing for them. What is needed is the appointment of doctors and nurses who will visit the various fields and outposts from time to time. No private doctor could do this, because such a practice would not be profitable, but the Government could provide for it, and my experience makes me say that such provision would be a great boon to the miners, and, of course, they would share it with all other settlers. The men connected with mining are now sometimes cheated in connexion with assays, and often find it difficult to get a definite and reliable assay in regard to a mineral that is not well known. New South Wales has a State Assaying Department, but scores of miners would sooner pay a guinea for an assay by a private individual, not because the Department is incapable, but because it is dilettante. There should be a State Department big enough to handle at once all the samples submitted to it, because miners should not be kept waiting a month or two for the result of an assay. A mining centre is always a nucleus of settlement. Miners need foodstuffs, and thus give a market for the produce of the farmer and the pastoralist. In the construction of railways, it will be necessary to link together these mining centres, and to give connexion with agricultural land. In this way, the country should be settled very effectively. It will then be necessary to find foreign markets for its produce. The Government should see that the producers are paid full value for their produce. In South Australia, there is a State Produce Department, which has done magnificent work, but the Commonwealth Department could do still better work in the Northern Territory, because it would be able to control production better. I am glad; that freezing works are to be established, and I hope _ that tinning and drying works will follow, so that foodstuffs may be prepared for distribution and export. The Government will do well to attend to the acclimatization of animals which it may be advantageous from a commercial point of view to introduce. I have it on the best authority that there are many thousands of buffaloes in the Territory, which are ‘being ruthlessly destroyed for the sake of their hides. These buffaloes are probably immune to tick and red-water, and it might be worth while to ascertain whether, by judicious crossing, a breed of cattle could be obtained which wOuld suit the Northern Territory. The Bureau of Statistics and Information should be of tremendous value. I hope that the Government will not spare expense in these directions. To do so would be to delay development. In some directions, money at first must be spent sparingly, but in others all expenditure in reason will be justified. The Bureau of Statistics and Information will instruct the people of the Territory as to the best means to prove its capabilities. In connexion with the making of advances to miners on minerals, it will be necessary to establish a branch of the Commonwealth Bank in the Territory, and I am surprised that provision is not made for that on the Estimates. At first, its business will not be large, but a beginning should be made. The question has been raised, “ Can white men develop the Territory?” - a most serious problem. Some say that white men cannot develop it, and others that they can. My mind is open to conviction on the point. I am willing that there should be a test made, extending over seven or ten years, because, at the present time, I would not say that the white man will be a success, nor should I be prepared to sanction the importation of coloured labour. As an illustration of what can be done to enable the white man to live in tropical country, I would recall, the fact that when the French commenced to cut the Panama Canal, their men died by the thousand, like rotten sheep, succumbing to malaria, and even to the bites of a poisonous spider which is almost as large as a pigeon’s egg. All their efforts were a failure. Then the United States stepped in, and did what I am asking the Government to do in connexion with the Northern Territory, that is, they sent out Government doctors to make an examination of the disease-breeding centres. The mosquito was given his quietus, and malaria gradually disappeared. The canal is in a zone more dangerous to human life than the Northern Territory. The Government also decided that the men employed on the construction of the canal should have the best food obtainable, and that full attention should be paid to sanitary requirements. We should adopt the same system in the development of the Northern Territory. The work done in connexion with the Panama Canal in this regard should be an object-lesson to the Commonwealth Government. What was done there is possible in the Northern Territory, and I hope that the Government will grapple with this problem in a way which will show that they mean business. Let them safeguard the health of the people, and give every facility to the miner and to the settler of every description to carry on his industry, and to secure the best possible market for his produce. If this is done, there must be great possibilities of development. If, however, we adopt the fatal policy of drift - and the Estimates would .seem to suggest that there is a tendency in that direction - the Territory must prove a white elephant. I know that honorable members are anxious to close this debate, but, as one who has taken a keen interest in the Territory, I shall, perhaps, be pardoned for dealing briefly with the question.

Mr Finlayson:

– We all take a keen interest in it, but .some of us are refraining from speaking.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I did not take part in the Budget debate, but some who did have also taken part in the discussion on these Estimates. I do .not want to speak at length, but when I see such a programme as that put before us by the Government, so far as the Northern Territory is concerned, I am afraid that we are drifting. If we do not give the Government more money, and if they do not attack this proposition more vigorously than they have done, I shall have fears both for the Ministry and the Territory. I desire to heartily congratulate the Government on their adoption, of the leasehold policy. The problem which confronts us with regard to land settlement relates to the granting of large areas at the outset, and to gradually reducing the areas as settlement goes on. To attempt anything but .the leasehold system would be to make the Territory a gambling ground for speculators, who would block settlement by charging high prices for their land as the population increased., A freehold system of land tenure in respect of large areas would, so to speak, crucify the Territory. I hope that the Government will soon bring their leasehold policy to the front, so that intending settlers may know what they have to expect. I have been frequently questioned by men who wish to go to the Territory regarding the terms on which land may be secured there, and I can only say to them that the Government are not yet ready to proceed, but that under a Labour Administration they will be treated well. That, however, is not in itself sufficient for the man who wants to sell up his home and settle in the Territory. It is, therefore, high time that the Minister propounded his leasing policy. In conclusion, I wish to direct the attention of the Minister to the main points I have raised, and which relate to the establishment of a branch of the Commonwealth Bank in the Territory, the creation of a Mines Department that will properly control and develop mining interests, a proper Produce Department, and a Medical Department, with all the accessories necessary for the laying down of a sound foundation for the development of the Territory. I am prepared to give my hearty support to any reasonable proposition which the Government may bring down to thoroughly develop the Northern Territory. I recognise, as honorable members do generally, that the problem is a very difficult one, and I am prepared to support the Government in going slowly in respect of what I may describe as foundation departments, which need the most careful examination to secure success. It is all very well for honorable members to say, “ Let us spend a million or more in constructing a railway,” but we should profit by the experience of the States, and, first of all, make careful inquiry as to the best route for a developmental line to follow.

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

.- We have in these Estimates an item of £410 in respect to the Coronation celebrations, and we find that the expenditure under last year’s Estimates in this respect was £2,342. I presume that this item refers to the payment of £130 each to honorable members who formed the delegation to London to take part in the Coronation celebrations, and I desire to refer to the absolutely poor and miserable display made by the Commonwealth in connexion with those celebrations. Troops from every other part of the Empire took part in the procession, but the Commonwealth was not represented, nor was there a Commonwealth arch along the line of route. Standing with another honorable member beside the New Zealand arch, I heard references made by the crowd to the absence of any arch to indicate that there was such a place as Australia, and we heard the remark freely made that the Commonwealth was too poor to be able to pay for one. Seeing that the Commonwealth thought fit to send a delegation of members of this Parliament to London to take part in this Empire festival, I think that we should have been careful to make an adequate display in connexion with an event of such world wide importance. The Government even refused to give official recognition to the cadets who were sent Home at the expense of private citizens of New South Wales. The Minister of Defence was careful to be present at the reception of the cadets at Charing Cross station, but, in the circumstances he might as well have stopped away. He and his fellow members of the Government did their utmost to prevent the proper representation of the Commonwealth at this important celebration. I do not wish to elaborate the matter.

Mr Wise:

– Particularly as we discussed it at length before the honorable member returned from England.

Mr FULLER:

– I was not aware of that; but I desire to emphasize the point that our representation in connexion with the Coronation celebrations was paltry, and an absolute disgrace to the Government. Australians in London who saw the Prime Minister seated in a carriage with Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and escorted by Canadian troops, felt heartily ashamed of the failure of the Government to send a contingent of Australian troops to London to take part in the procession. The Ministry ought to be heartily ashamed of their action, and I sincerely trust thai in connexion with any future Empire celebrations Australia will be properly represented.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 31 (High Commissioner’s Office), £i4>455> agreed to.

Division 32 (Papua), £34,000

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

,- It is unfortunate that the Government ha.ve been unable to make better provision in these Estimates for the development of Papua. It is understood that a loan for developmental purposes was asked for by the Papuan administration; if so, the request deserves sympathetic consideration. Every honorable member who took part in the recent visit to the Territory was greatly impressed with the efforts of the local Government to promote settlement, and to render it less burdensome than it has been to the Commonwealth. The revenue of Papua is very small, and is not likely to be materially increased during the next few years ; but if the Commonwealth granted the Papuan Executive a loan of, say, £250,000, a good deal could be done during the next ten or fifteen years to develop the country. Much has been done certainly; yet only a tithe of what urgently requires doing can be attempted with the revenue at the disposal of the local authorities. I do not believe there is a single harbor outside Port Moresby and Samarai where a ship can anchor. Every ship coming into other ports has to anchor miles away - from the land, and all the goods required by the residents have to be lightered to the shore at heavy cost and great inconvenience. To give an instance of the difficulties encountered in landing goods, we had on board, on the trip from Samarai to Woodlark Island, a considerable quantity of rails for a tram line for one of the local mines. The ship could not remain sufficiently long to land them all, the lighterage was insufficient, and although the men worked night and day, a great quantity of the rails had to be brought back and unshipped at Samarai. Then the coast is absolutely barren of any guides to navigation, which is, in consequence, extremely perilous in these waters. As a rule, ships are obliged to anchor during the night, especially between Samarai and Woodlark Island. Although provision is made on the Estimates for wireless telegraphy, stations will be wanted at other ports than Port Moresby,. We ought really to have had a cable between Australia and some part of New Guinea long before this. In this and other respects, Australia certainly ought to see that more justice is done to this great Dependency of ours. The local Government are doing everything they possibly can, with the limited funds at their disposal, but it is obvious that for some years they will be unable to command sufficient money to erect lighthouses or furnish other essentials to safe navigation. All these things will require considerable outlay, and it is vain to expect that the local Government can do the work out of their own slender resources. Every difficulty in the transhipment of goods, and all these delays to navigation, increase the cost of living in the Territory. If we wish the island to be settled, and its resources to be developed, we must make it more attractive than it is at present for people to go there. Up to the present no communication is possible with Papua except by steamer about once every three weeks. We spent nearly three weeks in and around Port Moresby, Samarai, and Woodlark Island, and during the whole of that time not a soul on board was able to get a message to or from Australia. Such isolation, within a Tew hours’ steaming of our northern coast, is not calculated to render Papua attractive to settlers. While I welcome the provision made for a wirelessstation, the Committee would be only playing with the question if they believed that this would be sufficient for the needs of the Papuan population. All the members of the parliamentary party will admit that the provision made in the Estimates this year is altogether inadequate.

Mr West:

– It will be a godsend if they get wireless telegraphy.

Mr MAHON:

– It will be an immense convenience; but I am not sure that wireless telegraphy will prove as cheap as the cable would be. The distance from

Thursday Island to the nearest part of the New Guinea coast is not great, and might well be bridged by a cable. I should like the Minister to give us some idea of the intentions of the Government in regard to the request for a loan for the development of the Territory. The proposal is for a loan, not a gift. I believe that, if a loan were granted to the Territory - and we have the necessary funds - the revenue accruing from the expenditure will be sufficient to pay the interest and sinking fund so as to cover the whole loan within a period of, say, twenty-five years. The money could be used to great advantage. A portion of it could be used to replace the Merrie England, which, although a good sea-going craft, is quite unsuitable for her work. Despite this, the upkeep of the steamer entails very heavy outlay. The fact is that the Merrie England was not- built, for the purposes for which she is being used, and so the refitting at intervals involves considerable expense which otherwise might have been avoided. I would strongly urge the Minister to get rid of the Merrie England, and purchase a steamer suitable for the peculiar service that is required. In fact, two steamers are necessary. The supervision of the island must be carried out from the various ports, and not by excursions from point to point on land. The rugged character of the interior accounts for this, and explains the necessity of facilities for travelling by .ocean and river. I am certain that if the Minister could supply the Committee with figures showing the cost of the upkeep of the Merrie England during the last seven or eight years, honorable members would be startled. I see no amount on these Estimates for the purpose, but if my memory serves me right, the cost of refitting and repairing that vessel last time was about ,£4,000, and I heard when we were in Brisbane that the next time she went there for repairs she would not get out under £5,000 or £6,000.

Mr Thomas:

– If The honorable member would permit me, I might make a short statement at this stage.

Mr MAHON:

– Certainly.

Mr THOMAS:
Minister of External Affairs · Barrier · ALP

– I am extremely glad that during the recess a number of honorable members visited Papua, but I rather regret that nearly all who went there were from one side of the House only. I should have been pleased if a number of those sitting in Opposition had also been able to make the trip, because the more members of Parliament visit the different parts of Australia, and the Territories under its control, the better. The members who went to Papua were good enough to meet my late lamented predecessor, Mr. Batchelor, for ‘ some three or four hours two or three days before he died, and they placed before him in externa their views on the question of the Territory. These were taken down in shorthand, and I am glad to say that the Department has the full advantage of the experience which honorable members gained whilst there. I was pleased to learn from the members that they were very well satisfied with what they saw in Papua. They recognised that a good deal had been done, and that a good deal more had to be done. As to wireless telegraphy, I am extremely anxious that there should be a station erected at Port Moresby. Were I not an ex-Postmaster-General, I might, perhaps, be a little more impatient, but I know the difficulties which surround the question. I think, however, that the Government are beginning to see the end of our difficulties, and the Postmaster-General has promised that one of the first stations shall be at Port Moresby. Whether the next one shall be at Thursday Island or Cooktown is a matter which, as Minister of External Affairs, I am prepared to leave to the expert. Stations are requested for Hobart, Brisbane, Cape Borda, and other places ; and if these can be provided shortly it will be a good thing for the Commonwealth. In regard to Papua, the New South Wales Government have lent to the Commonwealth one of their leading mining experts in the person of Mr. Came, who has already left for the Possession, in order to visit the coal-field, and also to investigate the alleged discovery of petroleum oil. Of course, whether this oil has been discovered or not we cannot say, and Mr. Came will make inquiries as to the facts. As the’ honorable member for Coolgardie has said, the Legislative Assembly of Papua has recommended to the Government a loan of about ,£250,000, and the recommendation has been sent back with a request for further details, without which we do not feel justified in raising this sum. Honorable members will realize that, with a Scotch Treasurer, particulars are demanded before any advance of the kind is made. There are one or two matters, however, which must be attended to, one of which is the replacement of the Merrie England.

Mr Mahon:

– I do not think that the Papuan authorities require the whole sum at once.

Mr THOMAS:

– At any rate, we are asking for details. Then there is the question of a tramway at Woodlark Island, in connexion with the copper-fields and a water supply for Port Moresby.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- This is a matter of importance; and I venture to say that honorable members are waiting for, and will support, any reasonable proposal to vote a sufficient amount to give Papua that proper start the Possession has not yet had. More support is required for the able Lieutenant-Governor and the capable officers under him, who spend a good deal of their lives, time, and labour in work that does not yield sufficient fruits nor confer sufficient reward. The absence of means of supply and communication is the principal obstacle.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to S p.m.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- When, some time ago, I gave way to allow the Minister to speak, I was about to dwell on the necessity of providing some superannuation or retiring allowance for officers -who have served in, Papua. The climate is extremely trying, and, in parts, very unhealthy ; and it is an ascertained fact that a white man cannot live there long without a prolonged change to more salubrious surroundings. It may be said that the officers ought to provide their own retiring allowance, as in the Commonwealth service generally ; but their salaries are so small that it is impossible for them to do so, as honorable members who have seen the annual report of the Administrator, will admit. The remuneration would be regarded as low, even in Australia; and when we consider the remote and isolated part of the world in which these men work, the unhealthy climate, and the excessive cost of living, it is seen that there is no margin for provision for a “ rainy day.” The Minister ought either to revise the salaries on a more liberal scale, or provide that the officers shall be eligible for some kind

Df retiring allowance on reaching a certain age. All the white residents are at some time or other attacked by fever, which is a most enervating complaint, rendering it absolutely necessary for them to have a change ; and a visit to the south or elsewhere involves considerable expense. The De partment, I admit, has been very generous in the matter of leave ; but, unfortunately, an officer, when he resumes duty, is almost penniless, the holiday having cost nearly all his savings. However, the main point is that if the Government desires the best service for Papua, they must pay more for it. The life may have attractions for some men of adventurous disposition, who find in its wild freedom compensation for the poor prizes offered by Government. But, speaking generally, the service will not draw the most capable men under existing conditions. With the exception of the chief executive officers and one or two resident magistrates and surveyors, the highest salary paid is £450, a sum for which we could hardly expect to get the services of a competent surveyor or magistrate in the civilized portions of Australia. Then we find that an important officer like the Assistant Government Printer receives only £200 per annum, ‘the wages of an ordinary’ compositor in Melbourne or Sydney. Indeed, some of the men employed on the typesetting machines for the morning newspapers make a great deal more. The Collector of Customs receives1 £520 per annum, and his accountant only £300, while the clerks in the Lands Department are paid £200. Food imports are largely controlled by one shipping company, and the cost of living is so high that a man with £-200 a year is practically unable to save anything. Another matter, which has probably been brought under the notice of the Minister, is the proposal that the Legislative Council shall consist of members elected by the white population. That will seem very plausible in the absence of a knowledge of local conditions. But, owing to the peculiar circumstances of Papua, it would, in my opinion, be very dangerous to allow the handful of white people to dominate the situation. It must be remembered that there are in the Territory under 900 white people, while the aboriginal inhabitants number, probably, some hundreds of thousands. Their exact strength is still unknown. Now, the taxation is not, as one might at first imagine, borne entirely by the white people. On the contrary, the bulk of it is paid by the aborigines. These natives work for the planters, and, by their consumption of dutiable goods, contribute a very large share of the revenue. At this stage of the development of the Possession, I am not prepared to hand over the control of hundreds of thousands of natives to 900 white people, a great many of whom are interested in their exploitation. The white residents may be a very admirable and estimable people; but where a man’s interests are served by degrading the natives to a condition of semi-servitude, he requires to be something more than human if he does not at times yield to temptation. The native race require our protecting arm, forthey are a most docile and interesting people. Of course, they are addicted to the horrible habit of cannibalism, but that is an ingrained custom’ in which they see no harm or hardship. So far as my information goes, very few white men, in recent years have been killed and eaten by the natives. On the contrary, they respond well to those who treat them kindly. If they have what to us are inexplicable customs, they are very amenable to discipline ; and it would be a national reproach if our occupation of the Territory resulted in their destruction or deterioration. The Government should extend its beneficent influence still further into the interior. I pay my tribute of admiration to the work which has been done, and is being done, for the natives by the missionaries as well as by the Government, ‘and both deserve great commendation. In this connexion, I am glad to say that in my judgment the rumours at one time current about the excessive loss of native life in the recent Kikori expedition were greatly exaggerated. In all, eleven native carriers died during the. progress of the expedition. The subsequent judicial inquiry at Port Moresby brought out the facts ; and it is -regrettable that they were not published with the sensational news which first filtered out concerning the expedition. I admit that the loss of so many lives was very deplorable. It is the more so because the natives were forced to take part in this expedition. A native may refuse to engage with a private individual, but he has no choice when called on in the name of’ the Government of the Territory. That is a command which he dare not disobey, under pain of physical punishment. This renders the occurrence doubly regrettable; for the deaths of these men, away from their own tribes, will render the future work of the Government, the missionaries, and prospectors somewhat hazardous in the region from which these natives were drawn. The history of the whole affair is now fully given in the files which have been recently made available. Incidentally, they show that the then Administrator, who set out to inspect a recently-discovered coal-field, had changed his plans and gone in a contrary direction. In the memorandum addressed to him by the Acting Minister it is stated that his absence from head-quarters had necessitated the holding up of important matters of administration, and that a sum of some £5,000 was expended in connexion with the expedition and the search parties. The memorandum proceeds to point out that it was a mistake that -

Only a very small supply of rice was taken by the expedition as food for the natives, and it is difficult to avoid thinking that, had a good supply of staple food of the natives been carried, they would have been in better physical condition to withstand the hardships and privations to which they were subjected. Cornflour - and a limited supply even of that - when the magnitude of the expedition is taken into consideration - can scarcely be regarded as a reasonable substitute for rice.

This was written in reply to the then Administrator’s report of the expedition and of the food supply which he took with him. The next paragraphs bear upon the fact that the natives are forced to carry for Government officers -

Another serious matter is the beating of the natives, who, for one reason or another, were, according to .the evidence, so treated at various times.

The reply to this is that the natives were punished for robbing plantations and committing other depredations ; though it would appear that they were at the time almost famishing -

It must not be overlooked that these natives were taken by the representative of the Government of the Territory and pressed into service as carriers, yet, although they could not refuse to go as carriers when told to do so, they were given beatings for stealing when the pangs of hunger were strong upon them, or for not marching as fast as desired. The Papuan authorities have achieved a reputation for humane treatment of the natives, and it comes as a shock ‘to learn that any of them have been treated in the manner described in the evidence. The care of the natives is a trust imposed on and accepted by the Government of the Territory, and the occurence of anything which savours of a departure from the broad humanitarian lines which the Administration has so long followed must be regarded with much concern. It is sincerely hoped that no instances of this kind will occur in future.

Sir Robert Best:

– Has the Administrator made any reply ?

Mr MAHON:

– If there be one, I have not succeeded in finding it.

Mr Wise:

– It is a pity that the charges should go into Hansard without explanation.

Mr MAHON:

– I am not making charges, and it is not my place to do so. The honorable member, who has just come in, does not seem to be aware that I am merely reading from an official document. I presume that the Administrator’s reply must have been satisfactory to the Department, because he still retains office; but I am not at this moment in possession of it, though, if I find it, and the opportunity offers, I shall read it. A great deal of good has been done by our officials, as well as by the missionaries, in extending the benefits of civilization to Papua ; and it is undesirable that erroneous reports should prevail as to what occurred to this expedition.

Sir Robert Best:

– Did not the expedition prove most valuable in the opening up of the country?

Mr MAHON:

– That is not disclosed by the papers. The original object was the inspection of a coal-field discovered by Messrs. Mackay and Little; but it appears that the party went in a different direction and got lost. The expedition may, however, have had valuable results ; its leader certainly deserves great credit for his courage and for the hardships which he endured. In conclusion, I would urge that additional funds be placed at the disposal of the Government of Papua to extend the influence of the magistrates. The services of native carriers are of great assistance to prospectors and others ; and the natives, because of the confidence which the Administration has inspired, are showing a willingness now to serve the white man. We have a great trust and responsibility in the possession of this Territory, and I am satisfied that if by justice and kindness we win the willing co-operation of the native race, it ‘can be made an asset of inestimable value to the people of Australia.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 33 (Northern Territory), £262,921 ; division 34 (Port Augusta Railway), £145,610; and division 35 (Mail Service to Pacific Islands), £19,850, agreed to.

Division 36 (Miscellaneous), £38,339

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- I wish to know why £200 is proposed to be voted for the collection of Australian historical records when we have already provided £450 for that purpose? I do not say that £650 is necessarily too much, but fail to see why that sum should be divided and appear in Estimates relating to two different Departments.

Mr THOMAS:
Minister of External Affairs · Barrier · ALP

– This proposed vote of £200 is to provide for the payment of typists.

Mr Deakin:

– It relates to the same work ?

Mr THOMAS:

– Yes. We have hitherto been paying typists to do this work, but the Library is now taking over the whole of the books and records and having them printed.

Mr Deakin:

– In future the cost will all be included in one item.

Mr THOMAS:

– Yes.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- There is, in these Estimates, one other item to which I desire to refer, and that is the proposed vote of £5,000 for the Antarctic Expedition under Dr. Mawson. Taken by itself, that’ is a handsome grant; but when we know that New South Wales alone has set apart £7,500 for the same purpose, and that, owing to certain disappointments, the expedition has been launched with some £5,000 or £6,000 less than was anticipated to be necessary to meet its requirements, it appears to me that the Government might be reasonably asked to promptly reconsider the question. The Ministry should consider whether it ought not, at least, to bring our proposed grant up to that made by the Government of New South Wales by increasing it to £7,500. This is the first occasion on which a party of research will devote itself from first to last to an investigation of the circumstances and opportunities in the south polar regions and under which further observations in relation to climatic conditions, of first importance to Australia, will be made. The expedition will make a careful study of the whole of the conditions of this most interesting region, which has a direct and close relation to Australia! From there, probably, we may derive data that will enable forecasts to be made of weather conditions, and possibly of rainfall, that will be of the highest value to Australia, as well as, possibly, to other countries, such as South America, that are in the neighbourhood of the South Pole. The investigations proposed to be pursued have not only theoretical, but many practical, bearings, and though the expedition is purely scientific, every one of those included in it will again and again stake his ‘life in the hope of serving his country. This should appeal to the country from which they proceed - most of the members of the expedition are Australians - and this continent must expect to reap the chief benefits from their inquiries. If time permitted one could enlarge upon many reasons why a claim can reasonably be put forward for the reconsideration of the amount of the grant. I hope the Cabinet will take an early opportunity of reviewing their attitude to this expedition. If Ministers have any doubt, Professor Masson, who, as the Chairman of the Committee associated with this enterprise, and who is deeply interested in the project, will be able to supply them with particulars. A great adventure of this character has many important possibilities, and is sure to produce valuable results, so that I think we might well ask the Government to exercise greater liberality in respect to it. If the expedition had set forth merely to achieve the great feat of reaching the South Pole, for which the whole world is desirous of competing, the position might have been different. But it makes no attempt to reach the Pole, setting forth with the sole object of thoroughly and systematically investigating all the circumstances and conditions of this enormous region which lies so close to Australia.

Mr Fisher:

– We shall reconsider the matter.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– Earlier in the evening I made some reference to the work of the Independent Cable Association, and alluded to the great difficulty with which it had had to contend, the success it had achieved, and also the success that the Government had been able to secure, through its agency, for the All-Red route. I have since obtained some further information bearing on the. points raised. I have here a letter that appeared in the Sydney Daily Telegraph of 17 th October last, over the signature of Mr. T. Temperley, managing director of the Independent Cable Association, in reply to some adverse criticisms that had appeared in that newspaper. It opens thus -

In Saturday’s issue you publish a two-column article severely criticising the independent cable service of which I happen to be the managing director.

Later on, he puts the position with which I dealt in this manner -

It is one of the factors which brought the independent association into existence that your association included a penalty clause in prohibition of publication of any cablegram you did not supply. Some ofyour papers have been fined by your association for inserting private cable messages. At the present time there are newspaper proprietaries taking your service which have expressed their desire to subscribe to the independent service, but are not allowed to do so under the terms of your exclusive contracts. I could name one proprietary which is supporting our service with a cash subsidy, and yet is prohibited, under contract with you, from publishing a single word of what we could supply.

In the Sydney Sun of 22nd October there also appeared an article headed “ The Cables “ ; “ Combine versus Independent “ ; “ The Facts of the Case “ ; “ The Position of the Sun,” to which I desire to refer. Honorable members who do not come from New South Wales may know that the Sun was preceded by an evening publication known as the Star. The Star, which was in the Argus-Herald cable combination, desired also to publish messages received by the Independent Cable Association, but it was prevented from doing so by reason of the terms of its contract with the combine. Subsequently, it went into liquidation, and from its ashes rose the Sun. This is what the proprietary write in this connexion -

As to the position of the Sun, it may be said first and foremost that this journal pays far more for the cable service it secures -

That is the independent cable service - than it would have to pay had it cared to cast in its lot with the combine. Several months back the combine made strenuous efforts to secure the adherence ofthe Sun. It offered terms so advantageous financially that the cost of cables to this journal for three years would have been immensely reduced. In fact, it could have secured the combine cables at less than one-half the sum it now pays for the independent service. The Sun turned down this offer. In doing so it was not animated by any high-minded ideas of philanthropy. This journal is a commercial concern, and the directors of the Sun decided that the company would be likely to make far more money by producing a newspaper containing cable news obtained from sources different from those of the other three dailies in Sydney. That their decision was sound is shown by the progress of this journal during the last twelve months.

Had the Star continued, it would have been liable, under the terms of its contract with the other company, to a fine of £1,000 for publishing a cable received from any outside source. I am credibly informed that the Independent Cable Association opened up communications with New Zealand, and that the combined press of the Dominion was most anxious to avail itself of its service. There again, however, a similar contract prohibited them from publishing cables received through that agency. The matter has engaged public attention in New Zealand, and in the New Zealand Times of 12th October last there appeared a report of some utterances by the Prime Minister of the Dominion, from which I make the following quotation -

As for the press work, while we had an excellent press in this country, they were to a very large extent attached, by arrangement, to the controllers of the press service of Australia, and the proprietors of the papers here had entered into an agreement for an extension of time. The great bulk of the press news which came out here comprised messages sent to the Australian press. One had nothing to say against the Australian press obtaining the best service they could get. Australia was a large country, and some of the metropolitan dailies nad big numbers of readers, but he was persuaded that it was a mistake for this country, though the press was well conducted and provided a good service, to be attached to a service that catered for Australian readers. It would be better to have an independent service working from England to New Zealand. The Pacific Cable Company ought to be availed of to enable this to be done. The Government of the day at this end would help as much as possible in a material way to have a thoroughly independent press cable service. (Hear, hear.) “ I do hope,” he added, “ that there will be no possibility of the controllers of the press at this end entering further into the existing agreement when the time arrives. I am sure that whoever is responsible for the control of the cable between here and England the Government will require to do something, as has been done in Australia, to give an independent service to the press.” He made this statement because of the little cable news, affecting us, appearing at home. Sometimes, even the occasional correspondence in the home papers from New Zealand writers was tinged with parochialism. Matters of broad interest affecting legislation and financial interests could be cabled. It could not be published very extensively under the pressure of the columns of the English papers; but in London one could remain for months and scarcely know that either Australia or New Zealand existed. The matter was becoming more important as time went on. There should be this closer contact between the portions of the Empire.

That practically bears out the position I put from the Australian stand-point in my earlier remarks. This is the second subsidy of the three that were promised, and it is time the Department looked ahead to decide its future policy regarding the All -Red route, and the subsidized service established in connexion with it. The subsidy will cease at the end of next year. The experiment has been amply justified, as the figures which I quoted earlier showed. As the. Pacific Cable is the nationally-owned line, on which we have helped to meet the deficiency for the last ten years, it will be wise to continue the present policy. I have learnt, on the authority of the manager, that for every £2,000 which the Press Cable Association receive in subsidies from- the Government they spend £2,200 in payment for cablegrams over the All-Red route. I should be glad if the Minister indicated the future policy of the Government in this matter.

Mr THOMAS:
Minister of External Affairs · Barrier · ALP

– The Government are very well satisfied with the press cable subsidy. It is no financial loss to us, because, although we pay a subsidy of £2,000 a year, we receive a revenue of a little over £2,000 on account of the number of words that now comes over the Pacific Cable, for which we get landing charges. Previous to the subsidy being granted to the Independent Cable Association practically all the press words came over the Eastern Extension Company’s line. In the year ended 30th September last, 463,726 press words came over the Pacific Cable, as against 21,635 words that came over it during the year prior to the granting of the subsidy.

Mr Deakin:

– That may include a good deal in the way of growth iri addition to the messages for the subsidized service.

Mr THOMAS:

– Most of the messages are for the Independent Cable Service. A few come over the Pacific Cable for the Argus Syndicate, but most of their .messages still come over the Eastern Extension Company’s line. Part of the contract with the Independent Cable Association is that their messages must come over the Pacific Cable, and, as I have indicated, the service practically costs us nothing. The cable is idle to-day for sixteen hours out of the twenty-four. It is a very good thing to have two cable services going, and consequently the Government are quite prepared to renew the contract with the Independent Cable Association.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- I have left to the last one very important and serious item to which the circumstances of the time are giving greater and greater significance. The usual sum of £20,000 appears on the Estimates for advertising the resources of the Commonwealth. I have not a word to say against the reasonable expenditure of that amount. I have certainly not regretted the appearance of the item- in previous Estimates, but the fact remains that, in one sense, the time for advertising has passed, or is passing. The present circumstances of the Mother Country show that thousands of people there are prepared to come here, having been won by these or other advertisements, or by their knowledge of Australia. They are ready to embark,, they are members of our own family, and of one blood with us ; but the means for their transit to Australia are not available.

In the circumstances, instead of this item appearing alone, it requires to be supplemented by another grant in order that the Commonwealth may add to the excellent efforts being put forward by the States, so that we may actualally bring here the people for whom we have been advertising for years, and who are now willingly responding to our call. The arrangements entered into by the conjoint States to bring 30,000 persons from the Mother Country within the next year or so, are most satisfactory, and all concerned in it deserve applause and encouragement ; but surely the Commonwealth, the most interested party of all, is not to stand idle at this time, and leave the whole of the Work in the hands of the States, when our advertising investments have proved so fruitful that to-day a passage to Australia from Great Britain cannot be obtained for love or money. That is a most satisfactory state of affairs from one point of view, and a splendid advertisement for Australia all the world over.

Mr Thomas:

– It speaks well for the present Government.

Mr DEAKIN:

– And for preceding Governments, who placed similar sums on the Estimates. I do not grudge the Minister his full share of the results of that policy which, by the way, was very sternly resisted when we first proposed it to the House. I hope he may be able to share in the harvest now being reaped from our joint efforts. We are now practically at a crisis. No vessels appear to be available. I understand that Victoria has chartered a vessel of its own to bring here a certain number of visitors from the United States, who are to be afforded opportunities of inspecting our irrigation developments, and of judging whether these are not mere attractive than anything that even the West of America has to offer. They must be more attractive, in the sense that they will be offered at a far lower price than has to be paid for irrigated land in America. Since I visited that portion of the United Stales, twenty years ago or more, the . irrigable land which was then purchasable for a few , dollars an acre is now up into the tens and scores of dollars, and yielding magnificent returns. We know that Australia possesses, although in one sense a limited area, yet, as compared with irrigation areas either in Europe or America, what may fairly be termed a very large area suitable for irrigation, awaiting population, and presenting splendid opportunities tor closer settlement from which many of the drawbacks of the ordinary life of the isolated agriculturist will be absent. Under the opportunities which we can offer, settlers will be gathered together so closely that their schools can be placed in their immediate vicinity, and familiar intercourse with their neighbours will add to life a solace that is often wanting in the backblocks.

But for the circumstances of the close of the session, I should have thought it my duty to propose an amendment to the item in order to convey to the Government the desire of Parliament that steps should at once be taken for the engagement of a sufficient number of vessels to bring here all who wish to come. The Treasurer’s Advance could be, and ought to be, available for the purpose.

Mr Thomas:

– You would not agree that the Commonwealth Government should do this without the consent of the States?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I would, indeed. If the Minister wants the consent of the States, I believe he could have it for the asking.

Mr Thomas:

– Do you think so? We shall see in a minute.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I hope the Minister will stand by that statement. I should be deeply disappointed if the States did not concur, but if they refused, it would not alter my opinion as to the emergency now presented to us, and our direct and immediate obligation to cope with it. As fast as Mr. Elwood Mead and his colleagues in Victoria can undertake to make the land available, and the Governments of the other States can make their lands available, we ought to provide the necessary immigrants. These will be selected, of course, under the usual conditions. They must be suitable, and not taken indiscriminately.

Mr Mathews:

– Once you try to make conditions with the States, they will commence to howl.

Mr DEAKIN:

– We need not try to do so. I propose to offer them additional population, which will add to their resources, increase their wealth, and enable them to occupy lands which have for a long time been lying idle. A golden opportunity is offered to this Government. Our advertising policy has succeeded. It was inaugurated by us so as to lead up to our policy of settlement, and for that settlement we now have every opportunity. We have great areas of land available in this State, and in other States great areas ready and waiting for occupation. We sorely need more people. This State is eager for population. Nothing more advantageous to Australia, nothing more calculated to promote business and increase the welfare of all classes of our citizens, can possibly be achieved, than by bringing here those thousands of energetic, honest, and capable citizens who are prepared to cast in their lotwith us. They have at last learned that the circumstances to be found in this land are better than those they now enjoy, and are ready to help us to improve’ our conditions and the opportunities for our ownpeople. I hope the Minister will press this on the States, with a view to their taking their share of responsibility. If the States decline, then I am sure our people as a whole will stand behind the Government in acquiring all the possible settlers of the right sort whom we can obtain. They are now freely offeringfrom the Mother Country. Their only difficulty is to cross the sea - a difficulty that we can bridge. We have the means and the opportunities ; and all we require are ships pouring this stream of life into the country.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.-I desire to make a brief personal explanation. When reading, earlier in the sitting, the despatch of the Minister of External Affairs to the Administrator of Papua, the honorable member for Kooyong invited me to produce the reply of the Administrator. The only document I have been able to secure is one written before the despatch, butI propose to read that, in justice to the Administrator. It is as follows: -

With regard to the light punishment some of the native carriers received by my orders, I desire to point out that the circumstances were altogether unusual. We were a small party travelling through unknown country, constantly being watched and coming into contact with natives who had never seen white people before. Unless I could prevent their gardens being pillaged and the natives robbed, the lives of the party would have been seriously jeopardized, and continuous conflicts with the local natives would have been inevitable.

After some further remarks, he says -

The police on the expedition, although they did excellent work under the most trying circumstances, very naturally felt and feel a strong grievance against me for leading them through such rough country for four months, and during the last month (i.e., after the raft disaster), giving them no food to eat for days together, and no’ blankets or tents to protect them against the weather. They are, therefore, full of complaints of the treatment I accorded them, and are inclined to very much exaggerate every incident.

That is the only reply bearing on the matter that I can find. The honorable member for Ballarat questioned what I said in regard to the cost of the expedition. But the following return shows the particulars : -

The total cost of the expedition, including salaries, working expenses of the Merrie England, hire of launch, &c, is furnished by the Treasury, as set out in the tables attached hereto. To this should be added Mr. Hennelly’s travelling expenses (£23 2s. 8d.), making a total of£2,369 3s. 3d. The cost of the search parties, calculated on the same basis, is also set out in a table attached hereto. The total cost of the expedition and the search parties would therefore be£5,002 16s. 4d.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Fawkner

.- I hope the Minister will adopt the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition in regard to greater facilities for immigrants to come here. The old, narrow view that every immigrant deprived some Australian of work has pretty well disappeared. That was an idea very prevalent at one time, but facts have completely shattered it.

Mr Mathews:

– Not completely shattered it !

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I am very sorry to hear the honorable member say that. My own personal experience is that the more people who come here, the more work there seems to be. The newspapers report large arrivals of men and women from the Old Country almost weekly, and yet there seems to be the same demand for them in all directions. Within the last few days I heard of manufacturers who would greatly increase their operations if they could get employes.

Mr Mathews:

– That is a “ shattered “ idea !

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I have been assured on the best authority that the confectionery industry would be enormously extended if workers could be obtained, and similar representations are made by other manufacturers. I did not think that there would be found one honorable member to contradict my statement. The only time I ever was afraid to say that I was an Australian was during my last trip Home, and that was because I was so besieged with applicants for passages that I had to keep the fact quiet. I managed to get a few passages for English people, but it was impossible to get any more.I found two or three young Australians in England who had to wait for months before they could find room in a vessel coming to Australia; and I regard the position as an absolute scandal. The people desire to come here by thousands, and they are re- quired for every industry. The Minister would be well advised if he would assist the States in the way of supplying the necessary passages for people of good old British descent. The Commonwealth regulates the mail contracts and the mail shipping, and the Minister could here take a part that in no way conflicts with the action of the Governments of the States.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The control of immigration is expressly given to the Commonwealth.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– Quite so; but we were always told that the States had the land. There is now, however, any quantity of mom for people, quite apart from land settlement.

Mr Deakin:

– There is land waiting in the State of Victoria, already cut up and watered.

Mr Fenton:

– That is not my experience.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I should say that one of the greatest advertisements for Australia is the excellent work done by our High Commissioner.

Mr Thomas:

– Hp. is an advertisement in himself.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– The High Commissioner is heard of in every part of the British Isles; and he is worth what is paid to him as an advertisement, quite apart from his salary. He has even appeared in great anti-fat advertisements - he appears everywhere. The miserable amount of remuneration that is paid to him is totally inadequate to the position, and on all sides there is a feeling that the representative of a country like this ought to have more means placed at his disposal.

Mr Roberts:

– We suggested a couple of years ago that the salary was too small, but the Fusion Government would not listen.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– If the Fusion Government made a mistake, the present Government have an opportunity to rectify it.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Who suggested two years ago that the salary was too small?

Mr Roberts:

– I did, fur one.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– The Honorary Minister has now an opportunity to see that the vote is increased. Sir George Reid is looked upon as a great* asset for Australia. He has to compete with the representatives of other countries who have vastly more means ; and the work he does on the small amount he receives is wonderful.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

-S’J- - I 00 not like to be considered as one who objects to people from the Old

Land coming to Australia. I am desirous of receiving such people as quickly as we can assimilate them; and I think they are arriving as numerously as is safe for themselves and for the Commonwealth. I agree to a certain extent with the Leader of the Opposition as to the waste of money ; but, though I have objected to this expenditure in the past, it has been gradually getting larger. Does the Leader of the Opposition not think he has had enough of conferring with the States, especially when they are antagonistic to the Commonwealth? Whether it be a Labour Government or otherwise that is in power in a State, the moment a Federal Minister approaches them they impose such conditions as to make conference and united action impossible. No one would contend that the States should introduce what immigrants they choose. One of the conditions should be that only desirable people are introduced ; and I must say that, at any rate, a fair percentage of those now arriving are not of the class that are considered acceptable. A great number of organizations in the Motherland are desirous of getting rid of ne’er-do-wells, who, if they do not do well in ‘ ‘ fresh fields and pastures new,” will, at any rate, not be a burden on those at Home. The honorable member for Ballarat and the honorable member for Fawkner tell us that every industry here can absorb more people. The fact is that, while Victorians are clamouring for work in the Government workshops, the positions are filled by immigrants from the Old Country, who, I may say, are not nearly as good workmen.

Mr Howe:

– The same is taking place in New South Wales.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– There is any amount of opening for settlers on the land.

Mr MATHEWS:

– Exactly. The State Governments, who have generously advertised their States at Home, feel it a point of honour to find work for the immigrants when they arrive, so as to prevent disappointment, and a probable cry of “ stinking fish.” I hope that, if any arrangement is made with the States, it will be seen that only desirable immigrants are brought out, and that they are not introduced in greater numbers than they can be arranged for. Itseems to me that the shipping to-day is ample to bring people here as quickly as is desirable. Many immigrants are disappointed, having come here under the belief that they could get work at perhaps j£i a day. Many of the foolish advertisements by immigration agents at Home incline them to the old belief that gold can be picked up in the streets, or, at any rate, that enormous wages are obtainable.

Mr Fairbairn:

– They can get 10s. a day at any time.

Mr MATHEWS:

– What nonsense! When the Minister of External Affairs, as Postmaster-General, offered9s. a day for men on conduit work in Melbourne, there was a general howl.

Mr Thomas:

– I was accused of bribing people to come from the country to the town.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I admit that, in the irrigated districts, there is land for immigrants ; but no sooner is an area thrown open than there are forty or fifty more applicants than can be supplied.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– And there always will be.

Mr MATHEWS:

– Exactly ; and, therefore, we ought not to bring out immigrants more quickly than we can find the necessary land for them.

Sir Robert Best:

– The duplication of applications and the fact that special blocks are being offered largely account for the numbers..

Mr MATHEWS:

– In certain seasons of the year, and especially in the spring, there are employers clamouring for men, but if we brought enough men to do all the work that is now available, many of them, a month or two hence, would be without employment, and unable to find any for several months following. Most of us have felt the pinch of being out of work, and I do not intend that others shall suffer in that way. I am offering this protest so that what is done may be done properly.

Mr Fairbairn:

– Everything should be done properly.

Mr MATHEWS:

– No doubt, that is the desire of honorable members generally, but there are many employers who, for obvious reasons, would like to see two men offering for every job. We know that our cities are becoming too large, and unless that is borne in mind in dealing with immigration we shall create conditions which are undesirable.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I was very much amused, in listening to my honorable friend-

Mr Mathews:

– I am serious.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Honorable members opposite are serious, but they speak with different voices. Although my honorable friend, with all the seriousness that his jocund face will permit him to express, spoke of the applications for land in the country, the Attorney-General, whom he follows so slavishly, has pointed out that his party has burst up land monopoly, and that now ships enough cannot be obtained to bring out those who wish to occupy the land. Which statement is correct? My honorable friend says that we must not bring out any one unless we have a job at a good rate of pay for him to come to. The number of applicants for choice blocks in the country has nothing to do with the question. At the present time, only 5 per cent, of our people are cultivating the land, but our cultivation, per head of population, is nearly as great as that of any country in the world.

Mr Mathews:

– There are too many in our cities.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I agree with my honorable friend, but what has the need for decentralization to do with immigration ?

Mr Webster:

– It is the protective policy which the honorable member for Parramatta supports that is driving people into the cities.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I should like to know where we are. Every honorable member opposite speaks with a different voice. It makes me wonder what tilings are like in the Caucus when the door is locked. There never was a time when Australia was more prosperous. We are told by the authority appointed by the Labour Administration in New South Wales to make an investigation that 3,500 men are wanted for secondary employments in that State, and it may, therefore, safely be assumed that Australia could to-day absorb 10,000 men in secondary employments. For every man who cultivates the land there must be eight or ten engaged in other occupations, and if our secondary employments cannot get all the labour that is needed, what is the use of bringing out more cultivators, unless we bring the others with them, seeing that our proportion of cultivation per head of population is nearly as high as that of any country in the world.

Mr Thomas:

– We should not bring out artisans without also bringing out farmers.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– We should preserve the proper ratio as far as possible.

Mr Fenton:

– Every one knows that the cities are too big.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not object to people being put on the land. I should like to see as many persons on the land as can find employment there. But it would be absurd to provide only for the immigration of farmers, since every man who goes on the land gives work to five or six others. What we need are healthy, strong, immigrants, able to shift for themselves in a new country, and their selection is a matter for administration at the other end- At a time like this, a bold immigration policy is needed. It would do more to preserve our present prosperity than almost anything else. It is moonshine to suppose that immigration will decrease our prosperity.

Mr Thomas:

– During the past twelve months, more immigrants have come to Australia than came in the previous ten years.

Sir Robert Best:

– This Government is reaping the benefit of the work of its predecessor.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I congratulate the Administration on doing in this matter what its predecessors have done. Notwithstanding the statement repeatedly made by Ministers that not a penny would be spent on immigration until the land monopoly of Australia had been burst up-

Mr Finlayson:

– We are bursting it up.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member for Melbourne Ports says that it is not being burst up, and that for every piece of land thrown open to settlement, there is a large number of applicants. He is quite correct. At Wagga, the other day, there were 1,600 applications for fourteen blocks, despite the land tax.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Would the honorable member vote for increasing the land tax?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– One member of the Labour party says that the land tax has made land available, and another quotes figures to show that land is not available. This reference to the rush for land is a red herring drawn across the trail. Every one knows that among the applicants for land are many persons who already hold large areas. It is land hunger that accounts for the multiplication of applications, and that cannot be prevented except by an enactment providing that no man shall hold more than a certain area. Now that every one can apply, there are applicants, when choice blocks are offered, who already have plenty. That has nothing to do with immigration. I think that I had. better accept the statement of the Government that its policy has caused more immigrants to turn their faces to Australia than there are boats to bring them here. The obligation is on Ministers to find vessels.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Let the Minister of External Affairs build some. He once moved in the Chamber in favour of the establishment of a Commonwealth steamship service.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The Prime Minister said the other day that immigration would have to wait until we had built big offices in London for the High Commissioner.

Mr West:

– He did not say that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– He said that nothing further was to be done in the way of immigration until the Commonwealth offices had been built.

Mr Thomas:

– That is another thing.

Mr Mathews:

– He did not make that statement.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member can see it in Hansard. The brilliant suggestion is now made that the immigrants should wait until we build vessels to bring them here.

Mr Thomas:

– They cannot swim across.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Are there no vessels available?

Mr Thomas:

– The High Commissioner says that the companies will not be able to fully meet the demand for some time to come.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

-The vessels regularly trading to Australia may be full, but there are scores of companies in England who would send steamers here tomorrow if they could get charters for them. It is the bounden duty of the Government, in these rollicking times of prosperity, when immigrants wish to come here, to provide money for bringing them out. It is a matter of money ; but we are passing these Estimates although they do not provide for the expenditure of one penny in excess of the vote to which we agreed last year in respect of this matter. In the States where a Labour Government has succeeded to power these votes are being cut down, so that whilst we have the Labour party shouting from the house tops in one breath, that they favour immigration, in the next, we have them saying, in effect, that immigration is unnecessary. This is about the most serious; question within the whole of our political purview. There is nothing mysterious, subtle, or occult associated with the problem. We have only to do the work lying to our hands, and all that we want at present is a substantial vote ,to provide facilities for bringing people to Australia to help us to secure it for all time, and also to secure their own happiness.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– In view of the remarks made by honorable members of the Opposition with regard to the question of immigration I desire to ask the Minister of External Affairs whether there is any foundation for the report published in the newspapers that the Government of South Africa are considering the advisableness of establishing a State-owned line of vessels between South Africa and the Mother Country, and have communicated with this Government to secure its co-operation. If there is, will the Minister consider the advisableness of co-operating with the South African Administration with a view to the establishment of a State-owned line of vessels trading between Australia amd the Mother Country via South Africa, and providing for immigrants and general freights?

Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert

.- I have a somewhat serious indictment to make against th’e Government in regard to a matter affecting my own electorate. In the division before us I see provision made for a contribution to the funds of the Imperial Institute, and for a proposed vote of ,£5,000 in respect of the Antarctic expedition under Dr. Mawson. Last year a sum of ,£2,500 was voted for the assistance of sufferers by the -Bolton colliery disaster, and £1,500 to assist British settlers in the New Hebrides. I take no exception to any grant in relief of distress, or in furtherance of scientific research, believing that it is only right that the Commonwealth should devote some of its funds in this direction. There is, however, an old saying, that charity begins at home, and I think that the Government of Australia might well spend some of its surplus revenue in, alleviating distress occasioned by disasters within the Commonwealth. In the early part of the year the town of Port Douglas was visited by a cyclone which completely devastated it, the only buildings left standing being, I may state for the information of the honorable member for Brisbane, a public-house and the post-office. The population o’f the town is not more than 1,000, and probably its insignificance was responsible for the decision of the Government that no grant should be made to alleviate the distress caused by this visitation,. There was some loss of life, and the cyclone was followed almost immediately by a flood, with the result that people who had been rendered homeless were reduced almost to starvation. Owing to the flooded state of the country there was no possibility of assistance. Steamer traffic was delayed, as the result of the rough weather, and many people were left homeless and foodless*. The President of the Shire Council wired to the Prime Minister asking that Government assistance should be granted to the suffierers, but he received ‘a reply that, in the opinion of the right honorable gentleman, assistance in the circumstances could not be granted. I was at Cairns at the time, and the Shire President also telegraphed to me urging me to plead with the Prime Minister to grant some assistance to the sufferers. I at once wired to the Prime Minister ; but, although nine or ten months have elapsed, I have not yet received a reply. I believe, as a matter of fact, that some two month’s after the application had been made, the Cabinet considered the matter, and decided that it was one of purely local concern, in which Commonwealth assistance could not be rendered. The Government had their own officials on the spot, and it was their bounden duty to instruct them! to report on the extent of the damage, and upon the question of whether or not the application for relief was a justifiable one. I repeat that charity should begin at home, and that our own people should be looked1 after as well as people on the other side of the world. We voted a large sum to the Waratah Search Fund, and also made a grant for the relief of sufferers by the Sicilian earthquake.

Mr Finlayson:

– What did the State Governments do?

Mr BAMFORD:

– The Premier of Queensland, on learning of the disaster, immediately wired to the police magistrate at Port Douglas, directing him to supply food and give whatever other assistance was required. The Commonwealth, however, did nothing. I would impress upon the Government the necessity of taking into consideration the claims of our own people when there is any distress of so widespread a character as that occasioned by the cyclone and flood at Port Douglas.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.-! sincerely hope that the Government will exert themselves to the uttermost to bring more people to Australia. Despite what the honorable member for Port Melbourne has said, there are many vacant positions te be filled. A conference between the Treasurer of Victoria and a large number of employers of labour, as well as some representatives of the Trades Hall, decided that) a very considerable number of craftsmen in various branches of industry were absolutely required to carry on works in progress in the city of Melbourne and its vicinity, and that fact goes largely to discount the statement made this evening by the honorable member for Melbourne. Ports. There is a still more important consideration having reference to our rural workers. Every holder of land in Victoria finds his operations crippled at present because it is impossible to obtain the hands necessary to properly carry on his work*

Mr Riley:

– What wages do they pay ?

Mr PALMER:

– I am dealing “alt present, not with the question of wages, but with the need of more men. to carry on certain work. Land-holders are prepared to pay even more than a reasonable wage for the services of suitable men ; but, as a matter of fact, they cannot get their work done for the proverbial love or money. The men are not to be obtained.

Mr Cann:

– For what class of work?

Mr PALMER:

– General farm work.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Let us get into recess, and then we shall be able to take a hand in it.

Mr PALMER:

– The honorable member will find himself just as helpless during the recess as he is in this House while Parliament is in session. We also require a large number of men to enter upon the occupation and cultivation of the land. In Victoria, we are making strenuous efforts, under the direction of Mr. Mead, to settle the people on irrigable lands, and very large irrigation enterprises are now being entered upon. Although it is possible that, in many cases where land is thrown open for selection there is a plethora of applicants, nevertheless, the policy being pursued in this State is resulting in a large number of families being settled on land where hitherto there has been only one. The same remark will apply to New South Wales, where, with the completion of the Burrenjuck scheme, the land so to be supplied with water will be capable of supporting a very large population. The whole outlook in this regard is promising. But, no matter how loudly we proclaim- our determination to maintain our White Australia policy, we shall find it impossible long to continue to hold Australia unless we settle it with white people. Whilst our population is equal only to but one and a half to the square mile, it is absolutely absurd to talk about having anything like the settlement that is necessary. I should like the Minister to explain the item “ Expenses in connexion with Father Shaw’s wireless telegraphy station in Papua.” From this it appears that the Government have entered into a private contract with an individual, and are carrying on wireless telegraphy through his efforts. Is that the case, and if so, is the same policy to be pursued in other parts of the Commonwealth?

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

.- We have endeavoured for the last ten years to make known the advantages of immigration to Australia by a system of advertising which is now bearing fruit ; but the present state of affairs is due, not only to the efforts of the Commonwealth, but also to the combined efforts of the States. We have in the High Commissioner a first-class asset. He has done a great deal to advertise our resources. The previous speaker drew attention to the Conference held recently in Victoria, where all parties represented unanimously agreed that more mechanics were required in Victoria. In Sydney a Royal Commission appointed by the present Labour Government also reported that a large number of mechanics were required to meet the requirements of industry and trade in New South Wales. Statements have been made in this House from time to time, on the authority of Ministers, that the public works of the Commonwealth cannot be carried out because of the dearth of men for the purpose.

Mr Mathews:

– What Minister said that ?

Mr SAMPSON:

– It was said in this House.

Mr Mathews:

– It was said about material, not about men.

Mr SAMPSON:

– The statement was made in connexion with the Postal Department, and the Minister of Trade and Customs also said that the general contention was, not that more Protection was required, but that more men were required. Statements have been made in this House from official sources that we cannot put up tele phone lines, and that our public works policy is seriously hampered, because men cannot be got to do the work of construction.

Mr Scullin:

– Will you find a job for every man who comes to you?

Mr SAMPSON:

– I do not say it is the duty of this Parliament to find a job for every man who comes to Australia ; but if we have faith in our country we ought to believe that it can carry 100,000,000 people. At no period in our history have the avenues of employment been open more widely than they are at present ; and where we can fill up those avenues only to create further employment in other directions, we ought to seize every opportunity for doing so. Any member of this Parliament who says that Australia is fully populated is acting as a traitor to his country. The Commonwealth, with its broad acres and magnificent resources, is only waiting for an influx of a desirable class of people to develop it. If the public works of the Commonwealth were properly undertaken, we should have room at once for tens of thousands of people, not men who are trained to any particular trade, but men who could engage in construction work. We have also a large number of vacancies in connexion with our industries. The building trade in the country districts is in many instances at a standstill because it is impossible to get men to go there from Melbourne to fill the places waiting for them.

Mr Roberts:

– The building trade in Adelaide is at a standstill because the Employers’ Federation will not let the building contractors have the material.

Mr SAMPSON:

– The only thing that will prevent a full supply of material to the builders is the want of labour to saw the timber in the forests. We have reached a stage in our history when the lack ot a vigorous immigration policy may seriously jeopardize our safety, or at any rate lessen the chances of . maintaining a European population within our borders. There is no difficulty in any of the States in absorbing immigrants. A much wider field than those I have mentioned is offering in the development of the mineral riches of some of the States, but all these avenues are subordinate to the great question of settling the people on the land. The Victorian Government undertook a vigorous immigration policy, courageously sending a delegation to the Old World. This has been most fruitful in its results; and yet Victoria cannot get enough people to absorb the land available, while the other States are in an infinitely better position than Victoria by reason of their, larger areas. Plenty of people are ready to come from Great Britain to occupy Australian lands, as well as to follow other avocations. All that we require is to charter ships to bring them here. The Commonwealth never had a more overflowing Treasury, and never will it be more easy to supply the money for that essential purpose. If the Government continue to palter with this serious question, they will lay themselves open to a charge of grave dereliction of duty, and of not acting patriotically in the interests of the country which they are charged to govern.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- I should like the honorable member for Wimmera to specify the particular public works which are hung up for want of labour. That is the first thing he must do in order to prove his assertions. It is easy to make general statements about the scarcity of labour, but when the Commonwealth Government advertised for 300 hands in the Small Arms Factory, there were about 1,800 applicants.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– How many of them were in employment already?

Mr RILEY:

– I do not know ; but they all wanted to better their positions. Things are not so good that they do not want them to be better. The Public Service Commissioner of every State has hundreds of men waiting to get in as temporary hands for the Postal and other branches of the service. These men are out of employment. The New South Wales Railways Commissioners have hundreds on their books wanting employment in their Department. Most of the immigrants who come out are sent to the Commissioners for employment. I know of no industry in any State that is stuck up for labour.

Mr Sampson:

– What about the report of the Royal Commission on labour short- age in New South Wales?

Mr RILEY:

– Since that report was published, more than the number who were said to be required have come to the country. Two steamers have lately arrived with 1,200 immigrants each. The mere fact that we have prosperous times is the best advertisement that Australia could have in the Old Country. Every steamer booked to leave England for Australia for the next twelve months has her passenger-list full. Surely we do not require to go any further in that direction. Australia has been well advertised, and immigrants are coming here of their own accord.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– Our trouble is to absorb them.

Mr RILEY:

– If we overdo the thing we shall have unemployed in our cities, and that fact will injure us greatly. It is far better to absorb the immigrants as they come here than to overload the market with labour and create stagnation that will immediately react upon the flow of population to our shores. The High Commissioner in England, and the delegation that recently went from this Parliament have done as much to advertise Australia as if we spent another £20,000 for the purpose. In the Newcastle district there are hundreds of men out of employment. It would be a crying shame’ to bring miners or bring unskilled (abour here, although I believe there is a scarcity of skilled labour in the way of bricklayers, masons, and so forth, but that is only for a time. I do not want to encourage a wholesale system of immigration. Rents in Sydney and Melbourne have gone up considerably, because so many people have come here and are seeking accommodation. The people already here get no advantage from that. I can understand men with property wanting more immigrants to keep rents up, and I can understand men in business wanting them. ‘

Mr Sampson:

– Rents have gone up on account of the increased cost of building.

Mr RILEY:

– The cost of materials has increased, but wages have not increased in proportion. Timber that used to cost 9s. per 100 feet costs 18s. to-day, and bricks which used to cost £1 ros. per 1,000 now cost £2 19s. That is due to the operation of combines, and will continue until we have power to regulate combines. I shall oppose any increase in this vote until there is proper justification for it. When we want men for the transcontinental railway and other big works and cannot get them, it will be time enough to bring them here.

Mr THOMAS:
Minister of External Affairs · Barrier · ALP

– I am rather pleased with a good deal of what has been said during the last few minutes. Before the last general election we were told that if the Labour party came into power there would not be ships enough to take the people away from Australia. Now, however, we are told that there are not ships enough to bring people here. When the )and tax was imposed, it was prophesied that confidence in Australia would be lost, and yet honorable members of the Opposition declare now that Australia was never more prosperous, and people never more anxious to come and share in that prosperity. I was a little surprised at the Leader of the Opposition suggesting that we ought not to spend the full amount of £20,000 in advertising Australia. I understood him ‘ to say that it was unnecessary to spend a large portion of that sum, seeing that Australia was now well-advertised, and people were coming here, and that it would be better to use the money in providing shipping facilities.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– What the honorable member said was that there ought to be a proportionate expenditure in bringing people here.

Mr THOMAS:

– What could the Commonwealth do in the way of providing ships that the States cannot do? The High Commissioner, in that portion of his interesting report dealing with immigration and shipping, says -

The figures of. net immigration into Australia since 1861 are very interesting. The average from i86r to 1890 was 15,000 a year. The average from 1891 to IQ08 was 3,150 a year. The figures for 1910 showed a gain of 37,500, or 9,000 more than the whole gain from 1891 to 1908.

That shows that immigrants are coming here - shall I say in spite of the fact that the Labour party is in power? - in greater numbers than for many years previously. The High Commissioner goes on to say -

The shipping companies, I find, thoroughly realize the urgent necessity of providing more ships, especially ships with third-class accommodation, to cope with the greatly increasing traffic. The companies, however, will not be able to fully meet this demand for some time to come. The total tonnage of ships just completed or under construction for the Australian trade is about 200,000 tons gross. The Federal Steam Navigation Co. have two new steamers in course of construction, the Shropshire and the Wiltshire. Both of these ships, which have a capacity of over. 6,000 tons, have excellent accommodation for both first-class and third-class passengers. Messrs. Turnbull, Martin and Co. (the Shire-Line) have a similar vessel nearing completion. The P. and O. Steam Navigation Co. are building two new steamers for the Australia mail service, while the P. and O. Branch Service steamers, the Ballarat and Bendigo, will come into commission towards the end of 1911. Each of these ships will accommodate about 1,000 to 1,200 “ One-Class “ passengers. The Ocean Steamship Co. inform me that they intend building new ships for the Australian trade at an early date. Messrs. Ismay, Imrie and Co., too, have steamers under consideration for the Australian trade. The Orient Co.’s new ship, the Or ama, will probably be ready about November, 191 1, and will have accommodation for about 750 third-class passengers. Thompson and Co.’s new ships, the 1’hemistoctes and Demosthenes, will be capable of dealing with at least 750 third-class passengers each.

If the shipping companies, who realize the urgency of the position, cannot provide the shipping, how can the Commonwealth Government do so? I personally object to interfere with the immigrants coming here without the full and free consent of the States. Some time ago the Victorian

Government communicated with the Commonwealth Government asking whether something could not be done in the way of united action in the way of providing lands. We immediately communicated with all the State Governments of Australia, but Queensland practically told us to mind our own business - that what they were doing was quite satisfactory to themselves - and the other State Governments “ turned down” the proposition.

Mr Fenton:

– Did not the Acting Minister of External Affairs ask each State to supply him with particulars of the land available for immigrants?

Mr THOMAS:

– Yes, and there was no reply. When ships are available, the States can claim the use of them. If the Commonwealth were to bring out a large number of immigrants and land them in one of the States, and there happened to be a lack of employment, even momentarily, the whole blame would be cast upon us for interfering.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Is the great National Government afraid of what the States may say ? The Minister is a States-Righter, all right !

Mr THOMAS:

– As a member of the Federal Government, I have never been in favour of interfering with what I deem to be State rights. The Commonwealth has its functions, and the States have their functions. Some little time ago a number of Russians, fine stalwart men, came on their own account to Queensland, and the Government of that State notified the Russian Consul that all the room in the depots was required for British immigrants.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Did the Queensland Premier not deny that statement?

Mr THOMAS:

– He did not deny what I am now saying. I saw from the newspapers that the Premier had been asked to subsidize the immigration of Russians, but that he had replied that he was prepared to spend the money in introducing English people. These Russians, however, never asked for any subsidy, but came, as I say, on their own account. Quite a number of them came in the same steamer as that in which Senator Pearce and the late Mr. Batchelor returned from England. If the Commonwealth Government brought out a number of immigrants, we should have to land some of them in each’ of the States; and we might find the Queensland Government informing us that their depots were full, and that they did not desire us to interfere. I am not prepared to advocate any interference with the arrangements of the States. If the States are anxious to be associated with us, and they approach us unitedly, I do not say the Commonwealth will not be prepared to meet them; but until then, I for one am not prepared to do anything in the matter.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- This tenderness towards the States is quite a new development, which I am watching with some apprehension.

Mr Thomas:

– It is never too late to mend !

Mr DEAKIN:

– But I do not think this tenderness can be justified in present circumstances. What I submitted was that the States should be consulted, and asked whether they were prepared to supply land for suitable settlers.

Mr Thomas:

– We have already done that. Does the Leader of the Opposition expect us to do it again?

Mr Roberts:

– The Leader of the Opposition would be surprised at the replies from the States.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I am willing to be surprised. The present situation is entirely novel in our history. A large number of eligible persons are desirous of leaving the Mother Country for Australia, and the shipping companies at present trading here have lately raised their rates, thus further indicating their inability to convey those immigrants here. This is an entirely new position; and if I were Minister, looking at the matter from a party point of view, the first thing I should do would be to consult the States, in order to compel them to shoulder their responsibility. The Minister need not give a proportional number of the immigrants to each State, because, so long as sufficient land is provided somewhere, he would have fulfilled his obligations. Then the responsibility would rest with the States. I said, further, that even if the States stood out, the Commonwealth Government are in a position to make their own inquiries, and determine for themselves where settlers can be provided for at once. I believe the result would be gratifying to the Minister, who would be enabled to enter into other arrangements if the steam-ship companies cannot or will not attempt to meet the situation

Mr Thomas:

– They are attempting to do so, as the High Commissioner shows.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I am not now referring to the steam-ship companies who are supplying accommodation, but to additional accommodation for the surplus people who are anxious to come and cannot now be provided for. It seems to me the most simple and natural business transaction for the Government to bring those desirable settlers here. We have to be satisfied that they are desirable, since we know that there are splendid opportunities for them in Australia. The responsibility is ours, but it directly rests on the shoulders of this Government. They can easily discharge it to the great and permanent advantage of this country if they have courage. Let them not affect to be afraid of offending the susceptibilities of the States. This is the first time I have heard of any such alarm on this score, and I hope it will be the last.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- T understood the honorable member for Wimmera to say that, on the authority of the Minister of Home Affairs, Commonwealth public works could not be proceeded with owing to scarcity of labour.

Mr Sampson:

– - That they could not be proceeded with as rapidly as they should be. I shall give the honorable member the data later on.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I have asked the Minister of Home Affairs about the matter, and he denies having made that statement. I am informed that men are now being dismissed from work on the Federal Territory. I think I have been in close contact with every unemployed movement here in the last twenty-one years. I would like the honorable member for Wimmera to see the number of names registered at the Labour Bureau at the corner of King and Bourke-streets, the number registered for Commonwealth employment on the second floor of the Customs House, and the number registered for State employment in the Public Service Commissioner’s office behind the Treasury. If he went to those places, he would not say that there is ample employment for all. I do not accuse him of wishing to have here three men for every billet. I should like to see three billets for every man.

Mr DEAKIN:

-Are those to whom the honorable member refers as registered willing to accept country employment?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Many of them are. I was connected with three bodies of immigrants who caine to Australia, one numbering 120, another 80, and the third nearly 200, but as a medical man I had only to examine them to ascertain whether they bore vaccination marks. Persons who should not have been permitted to come because of their state of health came because I had no power to prevent them. I do not know whether the regulations are better now. Surely, we do not desire that the population of our capitals shall be increased. The population of Melbourne is now more than 600,000, and numbers nearly half the population of Victoria. Nowhere else in the world are the capital cities so large in proportion to the population of the country as in Australia. The honorable member for Calare told us of a family which landed in Adelaide, sent out by a British charity organization, without a penny.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Does the honorable member say that men cannot get on the land ?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– It is the hardest thing in the world. I know many men who have tried repeatedly without success to get blocks of land. ‘

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– There are fifty applicants for ten blocks.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Land is to be got by those who are willing to go far enough back.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The honorable member may know something about finance, but nothing about selection.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I know more than the honorable member for Melbourne.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I took up land when the honorable member was in baby clothes.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Why did not the honorable member stick to it?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I stuck to it until I had to leave it.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I made a success of the land I took up.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The honorable member did not have such land as mine. With regard to the vote of £350 for the assistance of the settlers in the New Hebrides, I think that tha expenditure is opposed to our Protective policy, which should not be impaired. I would rather pay money directly than refund duties. I visited the New Hebrides about three years ago, and do not know why persons prefer to go there instead of to Queensland, where it is easy to get land. All the work done in the New Hebrides is performed by coloured labour, but in Australia white men have to be employed. When I paid my visit, a subsidy was being granted on condition that black labour should not be used, and while white crews were carried as far as Vila, the work from there on was done by coloured crews. I would not reduce the subsidy paid to Burns, Philp, and Company, because we get a splendid return for it. I visited the islands as a keen critic of the way in which the kanaka is treated, and had reason to praise what I saw being done.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– No firm has done more for the South Pacific than Burns, Philp, and Company.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– That is so.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The company is a splendid institution.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Australia may well be proud of that shipping company. I do not know what Australia gets for its contribution to the Imperial Institute.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The High Commissioner gave his big reception there, and the artists’ reception was also held there. The expenditure is a good one.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I shall not criticise it, as I do not know much about it. The sum of £500 is put down as a refund of fines under the Immigration Restriction Act, and £50 for the refund of estreated recognisances, no doubt to cover hard cases. .

Mr Thomas:

– When a prohibited immigrant leaves a vessel, the captain is fined £100, but the money is returned if he comes back, which is an inducement to the captain to try to find him.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Regarding the sum set down for the repatriation of distressed Australians, I should like to mention that when I was recently in England twenty Australians asked me to help them to get back here, and I assisted three, and then came to the limit of my power. The United States of America allow their countrymen, when stranded abroad, to go to their Consuls, who, on their citizenship being proved, send them back.

Mr Thomas:

– We do the same thing in regard to cases outside the United Kingdom.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I had a talk to the High Commissioner, and that splendid representative of Victoria, Sir John Taverner, and they told me that pitiable cases sometimes came under their notice, which they were comparatively helpless to assist. The Agents-General desire to act with the High Commissioner in this matter, and would like a fund established to provide for the return of Australians. The expenditure to this end should be greater than it was last year, when it amounted to £102. We should not permit Australians to become a charge on the rates of the Old Country, but should bring them back here, where they will have a better chance of earning a living. I would rather see assistance given to settlers in the Northern Territory than to settlers in the New Hebrides. We should build railways there, open up theland, and send settlers to populate it, helping them when there. The Leader of the Opposition will bear out the statement that the men sent to the Victorian village settlements were put on land which will not feed a goat in many instances. They built their homes, and planted their gardens - and frequently their bodies in the cemeteries - but had no chance of making a living.

Mr Deakin:

– The land was utterly unsuitable.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– It was not the fault of Ministers, but had they been given good land they would have done well. If we all joined hands in the matter of developing the Northern Territory, we should be in a position to welcome there as many white persons as cared to come. Weshould provide those who go there with medical attention, and make a scientific investigation into tropical diseases, with a. view to bringing about the conditions under which population will thrive. I understand that there is very rich land on some of the rivers, which are larger than any others that we possess. Queensland hasthe lowest death-rate in the world, and, probably, with proper scientific direction, white men could develop the Northern Territory, and keep it for future generations of our people.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– The honorable member for SouthSydney says that in Sydney there are hundreds of men’ at the street corners seeking work, and that the books of the Railways Commissioners are filled with the names of applicants for employment. There issomething very wrong if that is really the case, with a Labour Government in power, which is spending £3,500,000 of loan, money. Then, again, the honorable member for Melbourne, who has just resumed his seat, told us that, in spite of the operation of the big, crushing, bursting-up Federal land tax during the last twelve months, it is most difficult to obtain land.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– In Victoria.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does not the Federal Land Tax apply to Victoria? I’ hope, at all events, that the honorable member’s statements will appear in Hansard, for it will be very useful by-and-by. 1 was surprised to hear the declaration of theMinister of External Affairs that he will’ never do anything in connexion with this- matter of immigration that will bring down upon him the criticism of the States. That was the effect of his statement. “ What would the State Governments say,” he asked, “ if we entered upon this work on our own account ? “

Mr Thomas:

– - If we began to interfere with them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member did not put such a query to the House when we were invited- to interfere with the Savings Banks of the States.

Mr Thomas:

– That is a Federal mattei.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– And is not immigration a Federal matter? Every Federal Government, and every Labour Minister of External Affairs hitherto, has always declared that immigration is a national affair ; but now, for the first time, we have a Minister of External Affairs declaring that it is a State undertaking, notwithstanding that, under the Constitution, we have power to ileal with it. 1 should like to know where the “ State frighters “ are now. The Minister says that he dare not do anything in this regard lest his actions might be resented by the States. This Minister is, for the first time in the history of the Federation, turning down immigration as a national question, and declaring it to be a purely State matter. I desire to know whether the Minister has made any representations to the High Commissioner, since he has been in office, in regard to the provision of shipping accommodation for immigrants?

Mr Thomas:

– I have not.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then the honorable gentleman does not know whether or not there is accommodation for them?

Air. Thomas. - I have the report, of the High Commissioner.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Why has not the honorable member the courage to say that he is against immigration ? That is the position he takes up, and he knows that it is.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department or Defence.

Division 37 (Central Administration), £70,821.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I have no serious criticism to offer on the question of naval and military defence. I have told the Government before that, whilst I believe there is plenty of room for comment in connexion with the evolution of their scheme, I am prepared to waive all detailed criticism as long as they carry out the objects which they are at present pursuing.

Mr Archibald:

– In spite of the increased taxation the honorable member talked about?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes; these undertakings are not being carried out as we should have conducted them ; we should have carried them through with a great deal less taxation ; but we were not permitted to do so. That, however, is a matter of the past, and I am not going into a detailed criticism of the Estimates of this Department. As long as the Government keep on spending millions, as they are doing, for defence, I shall only say, “ Good luck to you; go ahead !” How long they will do that, however, I am unable to sayIn this connexion I wish to refer to an ungenerous and impudent statement made last Saturday by the Attorney-General in that celebrated column of his, “ The Case for Labour.” I am sorry that he is not well; but I see no evidence of illness in “ The Case for Labour “ that he reels off from week to week. It suggests that he is in particularly good health, and I am glad to see in it evidence of great mental vigour. In the course of his usual weekly article he wrote of the Opposition last Saturday -

Which act of ours will they dare pledge themselves to undo.

Here again we have tile little boaster -

As for the measures for the defence of Australia, they have been unable to suggest how these should be improved. As for going back to .the old order of things they certainly -dare not hint at such a thing.

That is about the coolest statement of which I have ever heard. Let it be distinctly understood that the Government are carrying out the naval and defence schemes of their predecessors in office.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– Oh ! a Dreadnought or nothing !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I challenge the honorable member to dispute my statement. The naval, scheme now being carried out is that which was agreed to at the Conference attended by Colonel Foxton ; and, on the statement of the present Minister of Defence himself, the scheme sketched by Sir Reginald Henderson will not begin to operate, so far as cost is concerned, for several years. But all the money now being voted on these Estimates for Naval Defence is to carry out a scheme sketched 3t the Imperial Conference, at which Colonel Foxton attended. I challenge contradiction of that statement.

Mr Archibald:

– And yet the honorable member objects to increased taxation?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I know to what the honorable member is referring. Let him get my statements, and deal with them.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– The first act of the present Government was to upset the naval loan policy of its predecessors in office.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is only a detail in regard to the method of carrying out the scheme. Honorable members opposite are welcome to it so long as they carry out the schemes we sketched, and left for them. So far they are doing that work very well ; but when claptrap such as that to which I have just referred as having been written by the Attorney-General is hawked all over the country, it is time for us to tell the people that, so far from going back to the old order of things, we are quite content to see this Government carrying through schemes which we left for them to develop.

Mr Archibald:

– Then what was the honorable member whining about in the electorate of Hindmarsh the other day in regard to expenditure ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am beginning to think that I did a little good in the electorate of Hindmarsh. I always think that I am when I anger my honorable friends opposite.

Mr Archibald:

– The honorable member is not doing that. We are only complaining of his inconsistency.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Is that all? I shall not argue the question, but apparently the honorable member did not relish my references to taxation. The facts are on record, and I merely stated them. I repeat that if one desired -to criticise these Estimates, one could find plenty of material. I do not think that there has been a time since Federation when so many large and new salaries have been provided for on the Estimates, as those to which we are now asked to agree. These Estimates are full of new offices, carrying tip-top salaries. I believe most of them to be necessary ; but there are one or two matters to which I desire to call attention. First of all, I should like to know who are the members of the Naval Board. The first na.val member is, I presume, Admiral Creswell, who is. down for a salary of £1,200 a year, 01 aru increase of £300 per annum. The second naval member is set down to receive £1,000 a year, and I should like to know who. he is. Then, again, the third naval member is to receive £900 a year, and yet another £750 per annum. I call attention to the difference in the payment of these officers. I venture to say that none of these members of the Board have hitherto received, man for man, more than the members of the Military Board have received. We have now a complete reversal of the old order of things. Whereas the members of the Military Board had the advantage in point of salary, the advantage now goes to the naval side. The land defences of Australia, when in thorough going order, will cost in the way of upkeep three or four limes as much as will the naval side. Yet the members of the Military Board are receiving much lower salaries than are the members of the Naval Board. The Chief of the General Staff receives £1,200. There is a reduction there from £1,500, but that officer and the Chief Naval Officer will be on an equality as regards pay. The second Naval Member receives £1,000 a year, and the AdjutantGeneral receives only £684. The third Naval Member receives £900 a year, and the Quartermaster-General £750. The Quartermaster-General of the Commonwealth, who has such a tremendous responsibility in connexion with the new scheme of land training, should receive more than that, in view of the salaries paid to members of the Naval Board. Why this complete reversal of the conditions? The salaries of the members of the Military Bo?.rd are as follow : - Adjutant-General £684. Chief of Ordnance £700, QuartermasterGeneral £750, Secretary £420. These salaries are very low considering the responsibilities attached to the positions. No change is made in them, but there ls a great lift in the salaries paid to the members of the Naval Board. Will the Minister explain the reason for it ? Another new staff is being set up in connexion with the Naval Department. There is a Director of Naval .Reserves, a Director of Naval Works, and a Naval Adviser to the High Commissioner. All these are to get salaries of from £800 to £850. I am not complaining of the salaries on the naval side being pitched pretty high, but why this great discrepancy between the Military and Naval Staffs? Later on I shall challenge the item regarding the Area Officers, and move its reduction by £1 to test the question of their pay.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– The Forces suffered through ‘he death of the late Major-General

Hoad, who was an able and experienced officer, and had reached practically the top of the tree. The officer who succeeds him as Chief of the General Staff may not be of the same experience, and possibly may not hold similar rank.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I hope he will.

Mr ROBERTS:

– There may have to be an appointment to that rank, because we do not happen to have another officer of the same rank in Australia. It is customary in all such positions to start officers at what may be termed the bottom of their class, permitting them to rise by certain stages to the highest figure. Practically the officers on the Naval Board are here under what may be termed contracts. They have to lay down the whole of the scheme for the new Navy for Australia, and so have to be experts. The salaries paid to them are presumed to be in accordance with their expert knowledge, the special work they have to do, and the rank they hold.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– - Who are they?

Mr ROBERTS:

– Admiral Sir William Creswell, Captain Chambers, who is the second Naval Member, Engineer-Captain Clarkson, and Mr. H. W. E. Manisty, who is the Finance and Civil Member. The honorable member will also know that in certain respects naval salaries rank a little higher than military.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

.- The Minister’s explanation does not get us much “ forrarder “ so far as the military go. I do not think the naval salaries are at all too high, always providing that care is taken to get men who are worth the money. The salary of £1,500 for the Chief of the General Staff was only brought into existence three years ago. The present Minister did it, and why he is taking it down now by £300 a year I do not know. Major-General Hoad received £1,500 a year as Chief of the General Staff, and as Australian representative on the Imperial General Staff. The next occupant of the post must be the best man obtainable in the Forces, and directly he is appointed to the position he must be made Major-General. We have now in the service two or three Brigadier-Generals. Among those I recall now are BrigadierGeneral Bridges and Brigadier-General Gordon. One of the anomalies of the military service is that an officer is not paid according to the work he does, but according to his rank. That often works out unjustly, and is doing so in the case of the members of the Mili tary Board. The last AdjutantGeneral was paid £800 a year. His successor is receiving £684 per annum. No matter how good a man may be, or what work he is doing, unless he has the rank he cannot get the pay. Some provision ought to be made, so that while he does the work he should get the pay.

Mr Howe:

– Let us apply that principle right through, from top to bottom.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– If the honorable member wants to go right down to the bottom, I am with him. Every man ought to be paid according to the work he does.

Mr Howe:

– Let us start to lift up some of the bottom dogs before we begin at the top.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– What does the honorable member propose to do with the top dogs?

Mr Howe:

– We can keep them where they are for the time being.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I shall be glad to help the honorable member to assist the bottom dog when we get to him. Just now, we are dealing with the big mastiffs of the service. Whenever a man takes a position for which his rank does not qualify him to receive the pay, it will be very easy for the Treasurer to make up the pay to him temporarily while he is doing the work. The salaries of the members of the Military Board could all be liberally revised without doing injustice to any one else. Men who control a service such as this is, and such as it is destined to become, deserve higher salaries than are set down here. It is true that in the British service the pay of a naval officer is slightly more than that of a military officer, but at Home the land defences have not nearly the importance of the naval defences. It is much, a bigger job to be in the navy than in the army there, but here, at present, the reverse is the case. Even when these schemes are in full working order, we shall be spending about three times as much per annum on land as on naval defence. Our naval defence ought, as soon as possible, to take first place in importance, as it is our first line of defence. Hitherto, we have treated it as our second line. Who is the Director of Naval Reserves at £850 a year?

Mr Roberts:

– Captain Tickell.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That means a substantial increase for him. I should not think his position was more important than that of Quartermaster-General on the land side.

Mr Roberts:

– It is an increase of £50 to him this vear.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think he is receiving a bigger lift up than that. I have nothing to say against him; he is a good man ; but it seems strange that all these naval officers are getting such a tremendous lift in the new order of things.

Mr Riley:

– Suppose we bring them below the salaries of the other officers?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not believe in reducing wages, and would much rather raise the salaries of those on the military side. The contrast at present is too great.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 38 (Universal Training, Adult), £86,000; division 39 (Special School of Instruction), £5,800 ; division 40 (Physical Training Staff), £7,110; and division 41 (School of Musketry), £3,500; agreed to.

Division 42 (Royal Military College), £31,000.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– Why are the salaries not itemized as heretofore? They are all lumped together, so that we cannot ascertain what is paid to individual officers. For instance, I cannot find out what is paid to the Commandants of the States. I suppose, however, we must “ trust the Government.”

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- Where is the necessity for a motor car at a cost of £650 to carry officers to and from the railway station, when there are numerous horses and buggies, with men to look after them? Is it the custom for military men to use motor cars instead of horses ?

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– This motor car is not provided particularly for the officers, but for the general use of the College, which is situated some 7 miles distant from the railway station. Calculations were made, and the conclusion was arrived at that the cost of this motor car for the purpose would be less than that of horses. The car is not there for the officers to gad about in, as suggested.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 43 (Chemical Adviser), £1,990, and division 44 (Cordite Factory), £.16,000 ; agreed to.

Division 45 (Small Arms Factory), £38,191.

Mr CANN:
Nepean

.- Has a manager yet been appointed to take the place of Acting Manager Clarkson? We should also be informed when the factory is likely to be opened. This work has been dragging along at unreasonable length for some time, and when inquiries are made, we are told that the factory will be at work within a month or two. There must be some reason for this apparently unnecessary delay, and we ought to have some statement from the Honorary Minister on the subject.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– As honorable members know, there, was some slight difficulty in connexion with the supply of the machinery ; but the factory is now working, though not up to what may be termed “ concert pitch.” So far as I understand, the Minister contemplates that, by the end of February next, the factory will be working to its fullest possible capacity. The appointment of a manager is still under consideration.

Mr Riley:

– When will the factory be officially opened?

Mr ROBERTS:

– I have no knowledge of any official opening ; but no doubt honorable members will be given an opportunity to attend any such ceremony.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– What is proposed to be done in regard to the appointment of a manager? Commander Clarkson seems to be allowed to do pretty well as he chooses, and is a most fortunate man in being able to select his own work. He was engaged to go to the other end of the world to superintend all arrangements in connexion with the factory ; and, before his departure, was given an engagement as manager at £800 a year. I believe his salary at that time was something like £400 ;. but now he is receiving £900 as the third member of the Naval Board. Is he still engaged at the Small Arms Factory ?

Mr Roberts:

– To the best of my knowledge, he is superintending until a permanent appointment is made.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– What steps are being taken towards making a permanent appointment? Apparently, a position worth £1,000 a year is going begging. Are we to pass this vote of £1,000 for a manager, and is Commander Clarkson to receive it instead of his present £900? What is Commander Clarkson’s definite occupation to be in the Department ? Either a manager ought to be appointed, or one of these salaries ought to be eliminated. We cannot obtain rifles from Home without a long wait after the placing of the order; and we require nothing so much as arms and ammunition in Australia. The factory is more than twelve months overdue, although the American firm obtained the contract simply because they undertook to complete it months before the English firms could do so. There never was a more unsatisfactory piece of business ; and we cannot obtain any explanation. It is time there was a straightforward statement made to the public.

Mr CANN:
Nepean

– I notice that £321 is provided for a chief clerk, and£1,100 for eight clerks. Here we have a staff of nine clerks, and yet there are not more than fifty people employed at the factory. When I was there in October, the machinery was standing still ; and, though the office is one of the most uptodate and best-equipped I ever saw, it seems to represent an extravagance under the circumstances. Some of these officials have been about the place for a long time, and if we are not to obtain any rifles, it would seem to be a most unusual and unnecessary arrangement.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– The staff referred to by the honorable member for Nepean has not yet been appointed, but it is necessary to make preparations for it in advance. In February next there will be between 200 and 300 persons employed in the factory, and it cannot be said that a manager, an assistant manager, an accountant, and two draughtsmen is too great a staff to control a factory of that size.

Mr Howe:

– There will also be eight clerks.

Mr ROBERTS:

– The factory will turn out some thousands of rifles annually, and there will be a good deal of clerical work in connexion with their manufacture and distribution. Replying to the honorable member for Parramatta, what he terms a full and complete statement of the position of affairs has not been made, because the Attorney-General may have to be consulted. It is possible that an investigation may have to be carried back to a time before this Government took office. I am not suggesting that any former Minister was to blame in any way, but, under the circumstances, it would not be fair to the Department, or to the contractors, to publish statements which might prejudice the case of any party.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I do not understand the reference to an investigation going back to a time prior to this Government accepting office. I hope that there will be such an investigation, but I have yet to know that the possibility of it is any reason why the public should not know how the work of constructing and equipping the factory is progressing, and why there has been delay in the production of rifles. Isit due to any remissness on our part, or is it because machinery has not come to hand quickly enough ? Commander C’larkson was sent to the other side of the world to superintend matters in connexion with the factory, and begged to be permitted to stay there, and when he was brought back, instead of being made manager of the factory, as was intended, has been made a member of the Naval Board. Is it intended eventually to make him manager of the Small Arms Factory ?

Mr Roberts:

– So far as I know, it is not.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Why has not a manager been advertised for?

Mr Roberts:

– Advertisements have been published, applications have been received, and we are within an ace of making an appointment.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am glad to hear it, but I do not know why we should have to worm this information out of the Minister. It is a scandal that the manager was not appointed twelve months ago, to oversee the erection and setting up of the machinery which will have to be controlled. As for the legal technicalities that may have to be referred to the, Attorney-General, they do not concern us now.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- I fail to understand why Commander Clarkson was not made manager of the Small Arms Factory. We need a man who thoroughly understands the work to be done.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The manager should be the man who was sent to England to see the machinery made.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Yes. We hear complaints about things not going as they should, and about defective machinery, and possibly it is because there is not a competent person in charge. Commander Clarkson’s salary last year was set down at £600, but this year he is to get £900, and the manager of the factory is to receive . £1,000. I do not say that the position is not worth the salary, but we should be careful not to pay too much, because our defence expenditure is increasing by leaps and bounds. The sum set down for the factory has increased from . £1,175 last year to £3,191 this year, though, of course, the expense must be larger because this year the place will be in going order. While we are paying £1,000 to a manager, we are giving only £1,100 to eight clerks, so that they will get the paltry wage of about £137 each. I hope that the man at the top is not going to be paid an exorbitant salary and those under him less than they should receive. It is time that the factory was in working order, under the control of a competent man. Without a competent man mistakes must be made, and work improperly done. Indeed, it would hardly be worth while going on without a competent manager.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.- Honorable members ought to visit the factory. It is one of the most marvellous in the world. For the first time, it will be possible to manufacture a gun without the application of manual labour. It is all very well for those who have no mechanical knowledge to complain about the time taken to equip the factory, but the machinery is very complicated, a great deal of it being new, not only in this part of the world, but in the Old Country- When the factory is completed, it will be the only one where it will be possible to make and test a gun without the employment of skilled labour or the touch of human hands. I do not know whether Commander Clarkson should or should not be made manager of the factory - the honorable member for Parramatta may be right in what he said about that - but certainly a competent man should be put in charge of it. In setting up an establishment such as a small arms factory, there is much room for delay without any fault on the part “of those in charge. The officers in charge of the Small Arms Factory are, after all, only human, and may err in regard to the machinery that is required. I hope that honorable members will not be too severe in their condemnation unless they have some mechanical knowledge, and a knowledge also of the plant that is requisite in such a factory. The machinery is most interesting, and would well repay a visit of inspection by honorable members. It is so accurate that it is able to test whether a gun is even the thousandth part of an inch out of “true.” Then, again, the electrical machinery used is a remarkable piece of work. It is an output of the Fitzroy Dock, and it is really a pleasure to watch it working. I am not here to excuse the Government in regard to any question of management ; but I am confident that if those who have spoken had possessed some mechanical knowledge, they would not have indulged in the reflections which they have made.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– In reply to the honorable member for Hunter, I desire to say that the delay has been occasioned, not by the absence of a manager or person superintending the erection of the factory and the placing of machinery in position, but by unforeseen circumstances. Captain Clarkson has been acting as manager throughout. I agree with the honorable member that it is time the factory was in operation, but unforeseen delays have occurred. As to the position of clerks, I would point out that men are ranked as clerks irrespective of their age, and that every clerk employed at the factory will receive the rate of pay for which the regulations provide. There will be no attempt to employ adults at a rate of pay that is not commensurate with the duties they perform.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 46 (Clothing Factory), £16,000, and division 47 (Harness, Saddbery and Accoutrements Factory), £20,800, agreed to.

Division 48 (Woollen Cloth Factory), £6,660.

Mr CANN:
Nepean

– I desire to ask the Honorary Minister whether a decision has yet been arrived at in regard to the location of the proposed Woollen Cloth Factory ?

Mr Roberts:

– No decision has yet been arrived at.

Mr SCULLIN:
Corahgamite

– I understand that the gentleman who has been appointed to act as manager of the Woollen Cloth Factory is to make an inspection of sites suitable for such an establishment. I desire to impress upon the Minister that, whilst there may be something to be said for the establishment of various factories in the Federal Capital, if the Federal Territory is not suitable for any particular Government factory, the Cabinet should take into consideration the desirableness of adopting a policy of decentralization. We have the Harness and Clothing Factories in Melbourne, and it may perhaps be argued that it is essential that they should be carrying on operations here ; but it is a bad policy to bring all such establishments into either Melbourne, Sydney, or any other State capital. Art attempt ought to be made to establish them outside our principal cities. 1 have in my own electorate, at Warrnambool, a site that is suitable for a woollen cloth factory, and there are sites in other electorates. I rose only to urge upon the Ministry the desirableness of instructing the manager to give special consideration to suitable sites outside our large cities.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 48c (Grants to Cadets), £10, agreed to.

Division 49 (Naval College), £5,200.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– - I desire to draw the attention of the Minister to the excellent facilities offered in Hobart for the establishment of a temporary Naval College. The Premier of Tasmania is willing to give the Departmental expert every opportunity to inspect there a building which, I think, is eminently suitable for die purpose. I shall be prepared to be guided solely by the decision of. the expert, in whom I .have every confidence, and I trust that the Government will give him every opportunity to visit Hobart arid inspect the building to which I have referred. A gentleman who, for two years, was a lecturer at. our University, and whom I met recently at Neuchatel, told me that, although he has travelled widely, he knows of no place more suitable than is Hobart for educational establishments. Our magnificent climate lends itself to the building up of intellectual, as well as physical, vigour, and in order to demonstrate the anxiety of the State Government to work hand in hand with the Commonwealth in regard to this matter, I propose to quote from a letter addressed to me by Sir Elliott Lewis, Premier of that State, when he learned from newspaper reports that I was moving with the object of securing the establishment of a temporary Naval College at Hobart -

My Government would be prepared in every way in its power to facilitate the transfer to the Commonwealth Government, free of cost, of such portion of Derwent Park as might be deemed necessary, and as is at present unappropriated for other purposes, or any other Crown land on the Derwent that might be considered more suitable.

Later on he wrote to me placing under offer the use of the building to which I have referred I am informed that it is not necessary that the College should be near the waterside, but in the Derwent River we have a harbor which the captain of one of our big ocean-going steamers has told me is absolutely unequalled. Another point to be remembered in this connexion is that we are about to tap the natural power in our Lake district, which is only 65 miles from Hobart, so that, whereas horse-power there now costs about ,£30 per annum, the installation of this electrical power will reduce it to ^£10 per annum. Any machinery required in connexion with the College could be driven in Hobart cheaper than is possible on the mainland. Time will not permit me to refer to the facilities offering at Norfolk Bay. but I may mention that the men of the British war-ships on the Australian Station, after being almost frizzled in other parts of Australia, annually spend some time there. The vessels of the Squadron visit Hobart, and go on to Norfolk Bay, where unequalled facilities for target practice exist. We have every facility in die neighbourhood of Hobart for educating the young men whom we desire to place in what, I hope, will be a Navy equal to that of any other country ; and I feel sure, judging by the courtesy with which Ministers have received my representations, that they will give this matter their most earnest consideration before any site is fixed upon for a temporary or permanent Naval College.

Mr CANN:
Nepean

.- I think that the Government made a great mistake when it determined to depart from the recommendations made by Captain Chambers in favour of the establishment of the Naval College at Burraneer Point, near Port Hacking. The Prime Minister told us that he would give us an opportunity to take a vote on the matter.

Mr Fisher:

– I said, when I announced the decision of the Government, that the only way for the Opposition to get over it was to challenge it.

Mr CANN:

– I hope that the Opposition will do so. The Government are making a serious mistake in proposing to institute a search all over Australia for a site for a temporary College, on which a lot of money will be wasted. It is an unwise policy, and I should like to move, in order to test the question, that the proposed vote be reduced by ,£1. Burraneer Point is not in my electorate, but the decision to turn down the recommendation in favour of the establishment of the College there was practically the result of a debate in this House at a time when most of the representatives of New South Wales were absent. I have never seen the place, which is not near my electorate, and could not benefit me in any way. It seems peculiar to send an expert round and then turn his recommendations down because some members of the House asked that the site should be fixed elsewhere.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member is under a misapprehension. No promise was made to fix any particular place as the temporary site.

Mr CANN:

– Where is the permanent site intended to be?

Mr Fisher:

– At Jervis Bay.

Mr CANN:

– Then what is the proposal with regard to the sites at Geelong, Hobart, and other places now being reported upon ?

Mr Fisher:

– It is a matter of urgency to secure a temporary site.

Mr CANN:

– Is it .proposed that the Government shall build a temporary College at either of those places ?

Mr Fisher:

– There is no such proposal.

Mr CANN:

– Is there to be no College at all, except at Jervis Bay?

Mr Fisher:

– We desire to get temporary quarters in the meantime.

Mr CANN:

– I object to voting for a thing that is away in the moon. Where is the site to be? It should be fixed definitely at Burraneer Bay, Jervis Bay, or some other spot. The same principle is being followed with regard to the Woollen Factory. Managers and clerks are being appointed, and money is being voted, but no one knows where it is to be. The Government made a mistake in departing from the recommendation of their expert regard ing the site for the Naval College, and the Opposition ought to have challenged their action. The Government have wobbled too much on the question.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 50 (Schools - gunnery, torpedo, and wireless), £4,800.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– - I wish to take this opportunity of dealing with the very unsatisfactory condition of affairs relating to wireless telegraphy that has often been referred to in the House. The subject has hitherto been dealt with mainly by the PostmasterGeneral, but this division deals with the subject of schools for gunnery, torpedo, and wireless. Besides, I find no express provision in the Postmaster-General’s Estimates relating to it any more than there is in this, and the subject is one which more intimately concerns naval defence than anything else. The position of affairs with regard to wireless seems to be very peculiar. The Government, through their spokesman, the Postmaster-General, stated in the strongest possible way that the establishment of wireless posts around the coast of Australia was a matter of extreme urgency. No one will dispute it, but what is the actual state of affairs? It may not be entirely their own fault, but the Government are in a peculiar position.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr.

Bamford). - What item is the honorablemember discussing?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The item of schools for gunnery, torpedo, and wireless, including the contingencies relating to it. I desire to take exception to the fact that sufficient provision is not made on the Naval Estimates for the appointment of wireless stations generally, or for schools of instruction in connexion with them. There are two matters which are distinct’ from one another. The first relates to the contract for the erection of two stations, one at Fremantle and the other near Sydney, to which the honorable member for Fremantle has on more than one occasion referred. I shall say nothing with regard to the unsatisfactory condition into whichmatters have got with regard to that contract, but I wish to dell with the proposal brought forward for the establishment of other stations.

According to the statement made by the Postmaster-General, it is proposed to establish wireless stations at Melbourne, Hobart, Port Moresby, and Cooktown or Thursday Island. We are told that the Government, instead of adopting the course which Governments almost universally adopt when they have the financial power to do so - purchasing the necessary patent rights to enable them to deal effectually with such a complicated question - propose, apparently, to take up some undefined system that is recommended to them, by an expert of their own. Thatexpert is admitted to be a certain Mr. Balsillie. He was recently the manager of a radio-telegraphic company which was successfully sued by the Marconi company. He has, therefore, come out here as the representative of a company which was found in flagrante delicto- found actually in infringement of an existing system. That, in itself, does not go too far to recommend that gentleman’s advice. This Mr. Balsillie, about whom I know personally nothing, except what I have stated, has, apparently, some system of his own. The Government are prepared, instead of purchasing already patented rights in Aus- tralia, to enable them safely to put a wireless system into force, to adopt some system about which there is a good deal of mystery, and which has been suggested or invented by that gentleman. The Postmaster-General made this rather peculiar pronouncement on the matter -

We are following the advice of the expert that was engaged by the Prime Minister when he was in London, as to the system we are about to adopt. In view of the trouble that has arisen between the Marconi and Telefunken Companies, we may, at some future time, as a Commonwealth, have to defend parts of the apparatus comprising the system which, after careful consideration, will be registered in the name of the Commonwealth.

I suppose the Postmaster-General meant that it would be registered in the name of Mr. Balsillie, and transferred to the Commonwealth, which is the mode provided by the Act -

I cannot guarantee that we shall be clear, but if we infringe rights in any way the Government will accept the responsibility of paying reasonable compensation for the infringement.

That policy, announced by the PostmasterGeneral, represents an entirely unstable attitude, and One which cannot be maintained. In the first place, assuming that the Government proceed to carry out Mr. Balsillie’ s arrangement, they cannot rest upon paying compensation or damages. I suppose they can pay damages, which may amount to a great deal of money, but after paying damages they may be stopped from using the works.

Mr Fisher:

– Are you sure?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am certain.

Mr Frazer:

– Do not be too certain, although you are a leading lawyer.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I withdraw the statement that I am certain, because I do not like to be too positive on matters that involve legal examination. I was too hasty in saying I was certain, but I would point out to the Prime Minister and the PostmasterGeneral that, although under the Patents Act the Government are entitled to become the purchaser, and may become the purchaser or transferee of patent rights-

Mr Frazer:

– If you look at section 92 it will, perhaps, help you.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That section reads -

  1. A patent shall to all intents have the like effect against the King as it has against a subject.
  2. But a responsible Minister of the Crown administering any Department of the Public Service, whether of the Commonwealth or a State, may use the invention for the Public Service on such terms as are agreed upon with the patentee, or in default of agreement, on such terms as are settled by arbitration in the manner prescribed.
Mr Frazer:

– That does not look like an injunction.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Government will be enjoined from carrying the system out unless they first of all manage to agree with the companies-

Mr Frazer:

– We are not relying on that section in this case.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– My difficulty is that there is so much mystery about the whole thing. The one plain, straight; forward way that has hitherto been adopted by all Governments is to directly secure the rights which this Parliament has created and given to the people who hold them. In that case the Government say - “ We want to take those rights. We need not give you your price, but we will have them valued by arbitration.” That is the way which has been adopted in England, America, and, I believe, in Germany and most other civilized communities. Instead of doing this, apparently the Government propose to say - “ We are not going to act under section 92, but we shall assume that the Marconi patent, which already supplies practically the whole of the mercantile marine of the world, and is installed in most of the navies of the world, and the Telefunken patent, which is owned by a company of some standing, can be put aside as if they do not exist.”

The Marconi Company has recently been successful in a very important litigation in England, but the Government say - “ We are going to have a certain system brought forward by a certain Mr. Balsillie, and we shall fight Mr. Balsillie’s battles for him, and if we are beaten we shall pay all damages.” That is a most ineffectual way of going to work. I do not think the PostmasterGeneral, or his legal adviser, will dispute the fact that, if they do not act under sections 92 to 96 of the Patents Act, by coming to an agreement with the Marconi Company, the Telefunken Company, and other owners of patents, the Government will be liable to be stopped by an injunction. The other parties have the same rights against the Government that they have against any private individual ; and the Government will be forced to “ climb down.” In the meantime, all works and operations will have to be stopped, and the Marconi companies and others will have to be approached with the request to agree on terms.

Mr Roberts:

– Would it not be better to discuss this under the Department of the Postmaster-General ?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No, because it is infinitely more important in regard to the Defence Department than in regard to the Postal Department.

Mr Roberts:

– It has nothing to do with defence.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I have a right on these Estimates to raise my protest against no provision being made for an important element in the defence of Australia. When the Postmaster-General was speaking, the honorable member for Gwydir interjected -

We were assured by the Postmaster-General twelve months ago that everything was “ all right “ from the Commonwealth point of view.

To this the Postmaster-General replied -

If my honorable friend means that the Telefunken company have given us a guarantee in connexion with the Pennant Hills and Fremantle stations that they accept the responsibility of defending any action that may be commenced for infringement, I say that we are covered.

In regard to these two stations, I think that the Government, when they came into office, found themselves in a position for which they were not personally responsible; but as regard to the new proposals, nothing has been done, and that is the reason I take this opportunity to show why nothing should be done in the direction contemplated. The Postmaster-General went on to say -

Whether the Telefunken Company are infringing the Marconi patents, or vice versa, I am not in a position to state. There does not appear to be any one in Australia who is able to express an opinion on that point.

Mr Mathews:

– Nor any one in Europe !

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I quite agree with that. This is a subject on which there is the most absolute conflict of legal rights, and the question depends on extremely complex points of law and problems of science, which it will take some years to finally settle. The Postmaster-General goes on -

Our position is this. We take the view that the establishment of wireless stations around the coast of Australia is a matter or urgency-

We all agree with that -

Our expert has given us a system. That system will be registered in the name of the Commonwealth by the expert.

I should like to know, and the Committee are entitled to an answer to the question, what is the general character of that system ?

Mr Mathews:

– Do we give anything away to our opponents?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I expected that question, and I shall answer it. There is a very wise provision in our Patents laws, that the Defence Department may become the possessor of patent rights, and if it does so, may seal up everything connected with them in order that foreign nations may not get the benefit of the discovery. But does that apply to this case ? In the very next sentence the Postmaster-General says -

That system will be registered in the name of the Commonwealth by the expert. We have Commonwealth rights; if he chooses, as the expert who is responsible for the system, to use those rights outside Australia, he is at liberty to do so.

Where is the necessity or desirability for secrecy, if the expert from whom we are acquiring the rights can publish them in every part of the world ? The only secrecy is the secrecy imposed upon this House.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I understand that the expert, Mr. . Balsillie, has no patent rights now.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– He has no patent rights yet, as I understand, though, in regard to that we have no definite information. I understand, from what the PostmasterGeneral said, that the system will be registered in the name of the . Commonwealth.

But consider the position. Here, in a matter most vital to the interests of the Commonwealth, the Government have decided to take Mr. Balsillie’s system, which may be good or utterly bacl. It may be some entirely new idea that has never occurred to the Marconi or the Telefunken people, Sir Oliver Lodge, or any of the other experts, or it may be simply a. modification of the system already determined to be an infringement of the invention of those other parties. All we know is that the Government are going to adopt this system, thinking it is protected in some way by section 92 - the Minister is going to put his head in the sand, “and take the consequences. Surely the straightforward course is that usually adopted by any civilized Government, namely, to say to the parties, “ We have given you patent rights under our law, but we require them for public purposes, and have a right to take them, and we shall pay what arbitrators say is a fair price.”

But the Government are taking something - we are not told what - some idea, which may be nothing more than a modification of the infringement - and are doing this under a veil of mystery, prepared to “ stand the racket.” I desire to point out to Ministers and the Committee that this “ racket “ may be something different from what Ministers expected. It may not be a mere matter of paying damages. The works may be stopped by order of the Court until the Government are obliged to do what they ought to do now - approach those persons whose patent rights they desire, and pay a price fixed by arbitration. That is not the position in which the Government of Australia ought to allow themselves to be placed. I am not going to pronounce an opinion that this will be an infringement, because I know nothing of the- system or of Mr. Balsillie, more than he was formerly the manager of the company which was beaten.

Mr Scullin:

– If the Court find that there is an infringement, can the Commonwealth Government be stopped from using the system?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes.

The CHAIRMAN:

– On looking at the Estimates, I see that, under the PostmasterGeneral’s Department, there are two items under which this discussion should take place.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There may be two items there under which the discussion could take place, but it can also take place under the Estimates of the Defence Department. I submit that, on the Naval Estimates, especially in regard to a School of Naval Gunnery and Wireless Telegraphy, I have a right to discuss this matter.

The CHAIRMAN:

– But the person in charge of wireless telegraphy will be under the Postal Department.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not necessarily; on the contrary, I think that wireless telegraphy is more concerned with defence. The whole necessity for wireless stations has arisen in consequence of Admiral Henderson’s report.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has frequently referred to the wireless expert, and he is under the Postal Department.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am not referring to any officer under the Postal Department; indeed, I was not aware that Mr. Balsillie was so placed. I merely referred to him because he is said to be the wireless expert.

The CHAIRMAN:

Mr. Balsillie’s salary is referred to on page 147 of the Estimates, and it is on that item the discussion should take place.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Whether Mr. Balsillie is under the Postal Department or not, I respectfully claim the right, under this vote, to say that there is no provision, or not sufficient provision, for wireless telegraphy in connexion with the naval defence of the Commonwealth ; and I am prepared to take your ruling on the point.

Mr Fisher:

– Let the discussion go on, because this statement’ has to be made’; we expected it.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Admiral Henderson, who was called here as a naval expert, made a report in which he emphasized the necessity for wireless stations in connexion with Federal defence, but intimated that, as a matter of convenience, it might be brought within the Postal administration.

Mr Roberts:

– I think it is only fair that the honorable member for Flinders should conform to the ordinary rules, and discuss this matter when we are dealing with the Estimates of the Department of the Postmaster-General.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am quite” prepared to submit to the ruling of the Chair.

Mr Roberts:

– I submit that the honorable member is not necessarily dealing with any particular proposal connected with the Defence Department.. The whole of his argument is centred round Mr. Balsillie, who is an officer under the PostmasterGeneral, and it is only right that the matter should be discussed at the proper time.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If this is not the proper time, I do not desire to discuss the matter.

Mr Roberts:

– When the general discussion on the Estimates has been disposed of, honorable members are confined strictly to the item under consideration.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I wish to be so confined.

Mr Roberts:

– The honorable member would be acting more in keeping with the general custom if he dealt with this subject under the Postmaster-General’s Department.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Had I waited for the Estimates of the Postmaster-General’s Department, I could only have moved the reduction of Mr. Balsillie’s salary.

Mr Roberts:

– There is also a vote for the erection of wireless stations. The details discussed by the honorable and learned member should be dealt with in connexion with the consideration of the Estimates of the Postmaster-General.

Mr Fisher:

– As the Senate is sitting, I suggest that you, sir, leave the chair for a short time to enable our officers, and especially the Hansard staff, ‘to obtain supper.

Sitting suspended from 12.15 to 12.52 a.m. (Wednesday).

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I submit that the honorable member for Flinders is perfectly in order in discussing wireless telegraphy in connexion with an item headed “ Gunnery, Torpedo, and Wireless.” Although the wireless expert may be under the control of the Postmaster-General, we are not bound to discuss this matter with reference tq his position. What we are concerned with is, not the salary or allowances paid to him’, but the system of wireless which should be adopted by the Commonwealth for defence purposes.

Mr Frazer:

– It would be advisable to have the discussion on the PostmasterGeneral’s Estimates, as I have a statement to make then.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If I am in order, I prefer to select my own time.

Mr Frazer:

Mr. Balsillie is the officer advising the Government in regard to wireless matters, and he is under the control of the Postmaster-General, whose Estimates therefore give a fitting opportunity for the discussion of the whole subject.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am not concerned with Mr. Balsillie.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The Minister will find, when he has to do with patents., that he is treading a very thorny path. Wireless telegraphy was first thought of in connexion with Defence, and Defence considerations were urged as the reason for the establishment of stations. At the preliminary investigation, Colonel McCay and Admiral Creswell were present. It is proposed to establish, in connexion with the Defence Department, a school for the instruction of officers in wireless telegraphy, and probably, later, officers of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department will be sent there for instruction. If this opportunity were allowed to pass, and an attempt were made to resume the discussion on the item dealing with Mr. Balsillie’s salary, it might be ruled out of order as not closely relevant. It seems to me that the only opportunity for discussing it on the PostmasterGeneral’s J Estimates would be on the first item, but that the discussion is perfectly relevant now.

Mr Webster:

– I do not understand the attempt of Ministers to curtail this instructive debate.

Mr Roberts:

– We only suggest that it should take place on the proper Department.

Mr Webster:

– I hold that this is a proper occasion for it. The point raised by the honorable member for Flinders is of great importance to our Defence Department. Mr. Balsillie’s connexion with wireless is only incidental, and the subject could be discussed without mentioning his name. What we wish to know is whether a system is being adopted which cannot be interfered with as infringing patent rights? We do not wish to adopt a system which will cause litigation, and perhaps make us hold our hands for six or seven years. We need wireless stations which will be able to communicate with the vessels of the Australian unit, and should not adopt a system which may be an infringement of patent rights. When we try to discuss this matter on items in the Estimates of the Postmaster-General’s Department relating to the salary of the expert, or to a proposed expenditure on specific stations, we may be told that we cannot return to a question that relates to defence.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I am ready to give my ruling.

Mr Webster:

– Very well. I shall say no more.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Whilst it would be more convenient to discuss this matter under the Estimates relating to the PostmasterGeneral’s Department, I think that the honorable member for Flinders is in order in dealing with it in connexion with the division now under consideration, since we have in it an item relating to schools in which wireless telegraphy is to be taught.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I had almost concluded my argument when the point of order was raised. But, as often happens in such cases, the interlude has brought to my mind one or two points which I am afraid I must put before the Committee. The view that I expressed was that if the Postmaster-General adopts Mr. Balsillie’s mysterious system, and that system is an infringement of, say, the Marconi system, the Department will not merely have to pay damages, but will probably be liable to an injunction. The Postmaster-General intimated by interjection that he was advised to the contrary. 1 think I understand upon what that advice rests. Section 92 of the Patents. Act provides that -

A patent shall to all intents have the like effect against the King as it has against a subject.

That is to say, Mr. Marconi, or any other patentee, has exactly the same right against the Postmaster-General or any other representative of the King as he has against any other subject. The section goes on to provide -

But a responsible Minister of the Crown administering any Department of the Public Service, whether of the Commonwealth or a State, may use the invention for the Public Service.

How ?- on such terms- as are agreed upon with the patentee or in default of agreement on such terms as are settled by arbitration in the manner prescribed.

I am not going to take the responsibility of telling the Committee that those who have advised the Postmaster-General are wrong; but I do say that if they have advised that, in these circumstances an injunction would not lie against the PostmasterGeneral or his officers, I should be very much surprised. This section is like a number of others, to be ‘found, for instance, in various land compensation Acts, enabling the Government to take any private right of property for public purposes. It is always provided in such cases that certain formalities shall be observed before the property or thing is taken. But to say that the Postmaster-General without approaching the patentee to obtain an agreement with him, or without going to arbitration to settle the terms on which he may use his rights, can disregard him altogether and infringe his patent-

Mr Frazer:

– The honorable member’s argument is based on an assumption that we are going to do something.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I. am taking the honorable member’s own words.

Mr Frazer:

– But the honorable member does not gather even from those words what I am going to do.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I ask only for a fuller explanation. The PostmasterGeneral will admit that I do not usually make a gratuitous attack on the Government, and I am not doing so now. I am. merely taking the statement made on behalf of the Government-

Mr Frazer:

– And to that statement I adhere.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That statement is that -

Our position is this : We take the view that the establishment of wireless stations around the coast of Australia is a matter of urgency. Our expert -

That is Mr. Balsillie- has given us a system. That system will be registered in the name of the Commonwealth by the expert -

That is slightly inaccurate-

Mr Frazer:

– The Commonwealth is fully protected in regard to that matter.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I understand what is meant. The patent will be really taken out. by Mr. Balsillie for the Commonwealth. The Postmaster-General continued -

We have Commonwealth rights; if he chooses, as the expert who is responsible for the system, to use those rights outside Australia he is at liberty to do so.

Here we have the ordinary case of a man who has an invention, and may patent it in several countries. He may patent it in Australia, and the Government here may use it by agreement with him, but the patentees in other countries can prevent others from using it there. That is the position.

Mr Frazer:

– But that is not the position. The honorable member should refer to my previous remarks.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I shall do so. The Government are in a difficulty already in regard to two other stations. They have a contract that may lead them into litigation, but with regard to these new stations the difficulty suggested was that the Commonwealth might be infringing a patent without legal authority. In answer to that suggestion, the Postmaster-General, in the part of his speech to which he asks me to refer, said - .

We are following the advice of the expert that was engaged by the Prime Minister when he was in London as to the system we are about to adopt. In view of the trouble that has arisen between the Marconi and Telefunken Companies we may at some future time, as a Commonwealth, have to defend parts of the apparatus comprising the system which, after careful consideration, will be registered in the name of the Commonwealth.

The Minister said, in effect, “ We are going to have Mr. Balsillie’s system registered in the name of the Commonwealth, and wecontemplate that we may have to defend it”

Mr Frazer:

– Does the honorable member, with his knowledge of wireless, know of any system in respect of which more definite language could have been employed?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is my business very largely to study matters connected with the Patents law, but the whole question of wireless telegraphy is of the most extreme complexity, and it would be absurd for any one to attempt to say that one patent is good or bad. That is common ground between us.

Mr Frazer:

– Why take exception to my remark when I say that we may have to defend at some future time parts of the apparatus comprising the system?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am only showing what the Postmaster-General said he proposed to do. He went on to say - and this is the point -

I cannot guarantee that we shall be clear -

From attack by other patentees - but if we infringe rights in any way the Government will accept the responsibility of paying reasonable compensation for the infringement.

Mr Frazer:

– What complaint can be made against that statement?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That does not cover the ground. I have been endeavouring to point out that the Minister would not get out of the difficulty by merely paying compensation for an infringement. He might be stopped from using the apparatus.

Mr Frazer:

– I make the distinct statement that we shall take that risk.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But, unfortunately, once the matter is submitted to us in the Estimates, the risk becomes the risk of the whole Committee. The Government cannot free the Committee of all responsibility in these matters.

Mr Fenton:

– Does not the honorable member think difficulties might arise in connexion with any other system?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I would not dispute that we might have difficulties even with the Marconi system.

Mr Frazer:

– We have an action brought by the Marconi Company against the Telefunken Company, and vice versa, and we have also seen a case withdrawn recently. The honorable member, notwithstanding his legal status, cannot tell me which of those companies is likely to survive any test that may be applied in the Courts.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I wish the honorable member would not refer to my “ legal status.”

Mr Frazer:

– If the honorable member were not a prominent lawyer, his remarks would not be given the attention they are receiving.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am trying to put the case before the Committee, so that honorable members may understand it. The Government may be secure, but on the statement made by the Postmaster-General I am not satisfied that they are. If they start by infringing patents, they may not get out of the difficulty by paying damages. They may be reduced to the ignominious position of having their works stopped, and of having to come down and meet the people whose patents they have infringed.

Mr Fenton:

– Might not that occur in connexion with any system?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The whole policy of the law as involved in the Patents Act is to enable a Government to avoid such trouble by going to the people whose patent rights it may or may not infringe, and trying to come to terms with them. Instead of doing that, the Government, so far as I can see, are taking an unusual course, which may lead them into serious difficulty.

Mr Frazer:

– The Government have taken all reasonable precautions to protect the Commonwealth’s interests.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Has this invention, to which the Government have pinned their colours, been subjected to the ordinary test of the examiners in the Patent Office to ascertain whether it is an infringement of an existing patent?

Mr Frazer:

– I am not at liberty at present to divulge to my honorable friend what has been done.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Has the invention been submitted to any experts ?

Mr Frazer:

– I repeat that the Government have taken all reasonable precautions to protect the Commonwealth’s interests.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I could understand the position of the Government if they were dealing with a secret patent, and not one like this, which the patentee is entitled to use, according to the Minister’s statement, in every other part of the world. I could understand their being extremely reticent about allowing anything of the kind to get out, but I cannot understand their being reluctant to say, even in that case, “ We have submitted the invention to certain experts, and have received a favorable report regarding it.” Apparently they are not prepared even to go so far as that.

Mr Frazer:

– Does the honorable member expect that I am going to lay the cards of the Government on the table while we are dealing with die Marconi and other companies ?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There is, in the Patents Act, certain machinery by which, when a man wants to take out a patent, he puts in his application and then his specification is submitted to the examiners, whose duty it is, on his behalf, to examine the patent, compare it with all others, and see whether it is an infringement or whether it is new. I should have thought the simplest course for the Government to take in this matter, before committing themselves to nail their colours to the mast with Mr. Balsillie, would have been to say to that gentleman, “ Submit 5’our invention to one of the examiners who is the skilled official appointed for that purpose under the Patent Laws. Let him examine it and report to us whether it is a new invention or an infringement of old inventions before we take it up in any way.”

Mr Frazer:

-Does the honorable member think we are a lot of dunces?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not desire to express any opinion) on that point ! It would be doing no more than justice to this Committee to inform us whether that reasonable precaution has been taken. I do not ask the Minister to divulge one iota of what the principle is.

Mr Frazer:

– You are asking me to divulge something which I do not intend to divulge.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I leave it to the sense of fairness of honorable members on both sides whether I am asking the Minister to divulge anything unusual when I ask him, “ Have you taken the advice of the experts?” I do not ask what the advice is.

Mr J H Catts:

– Is legal action pending in this matter?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There are all sorts of actions pending.

Mr J H Catts:

– Then, is it wise for the Minister to give that information for the opponents of the Government to use against them?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Either it has been submitted to an examiner or it has not. If it has, and there has been an unfavorable report, the Committee ought to know it. If there has been a favorable report it cannot do the Government any harm to let the Committee know it. Are we to be kept in absolute darkness about a matter which, according to the Postmaster-General, Mr. Balsillie, himself is to be at liberty to publish to all the world except Australia?

We are not even to be told whether the Government have taken the natural precaution of submitting the invention to any expert in or out of the Department. I am not attacking the Government, except upon their own statement of the position. If there are any other facts that will relieve the natural apprehension which we may feel about the step which the Government are about to take, I appeal to the Minister to let us have them. He will not find me a factious opponent so long as he can show me that the ground upon which we are going to tread is reasonably safe.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– The honorable member for Flinders has done a distinct service to the country by raising the matter in this way. Why there should be all this mystery on the part of the Postmaster-General concerning a plain question of fact I am unable to understand. If the thing is so mysterious that the Minister dare not tell us anything about it-

Mr Frazer:

– -I told the House the other night that we had a system which we intended to register. I stand by that. We accept the responsibility for its registration. I said, further, that if we infringe any particular patent, we will pay reasonable compensation.

Mr Hedges:

– That does not give you a system of wireless.

Mr Frazer:

– Does it not? We will have a system of wireless telegraphy around the coast of this country in about six weeks.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does the Minister say now that he does not intend to proceed with the installation of this wireless system until he has proved in the proper quarter that he is entitled under the law to use it ?

Mr Frazer:

– If the honorable member wants to submit any questions in specific language, I ask him to give notice of them to-morrow. The Government have taken every reasonable precaution to protect the interests of this country in the installation of wireless telegraphy.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Is the Minister going to use this system before he is certain that it is lawful?

Mr Frazer:

– We could not guarantee that, even if we used the Marconi, the Telefunken, or any other system.

Mr J H Catts:

– Would not the information for which the honorable member for Parramatta is asking be very valuable to those who are going to fight the Government presently?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not know who is going to fight the Government.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If it were adverse, it would be, but in that case, we should not ask for it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– 1 remember many years ago in New South Wales that we wanted to get a new and improved telephone jack. The Siemens Company at the time gave us an improved jack, and I was recommended to purchase it from them. The Western Electric Company took us to Court, and the Judge stopped those jacks from being landed in Sydney at all. I advise the Minister to look up what Judge Owen said on that occasion. I am not so much concerned with the legalities of this case, or as to whether the Government can get through the law upon a technicality or not. My point is that it is wrong for a Government to take any risk with a matter that is the subject of a patent. The Government confer patent rights upon other people, and protect their rights for them, yet here is a Government who are going to chance this thing for themselves. That is a fine example to set to private individuals. Of course, the Minister need not pay any attention to what I am saying. He is a very lofty individual, but he will be very lucky if he is not brought to his marrowbones before long. This is one of the most serious things that we have yet had to consider. A young man comes out from London with a system. Is it the same system that has already been ruled out in the Courts in London ?

Mr Frazer:

– The Chairman will tell you that question time has passed.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I shall moveThat the item be reduced by £i. We shall have a vote upon it, and they can take risks who care to take them. The Government stand to land themselves in a very serious position, if they go on with the matter until they know that their feet are safe under them.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– That may be never.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Why is my honorable friend quibbling? Here is a system that has been ruled out of Court in London.

Mr Frazer:

– You have no justification for saying that. It is contrary to a reply given to a question in this House the other day, and you know it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not know it. The Minister will not tell us anything about this system. N

Mr Frazer:

– I give you my assurance that I will tell you nothing that will convenience the Marconi or Telefunken companies.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I know nothing about those companies.

Mr Frazer:

– Then the honorable member ought to accept my assurance that we ate doing our best to protect the interests of the Commonwealth.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– On the strength’ of the statement made the other day, and quoted by the honorable member for Flinders from Ilansard., we and the public have a right to know, before the Government launch upon schemes of this kind, whether or not they are taking risks. The Government have no right to take risks with patent rights, above all other things. The Government are the one authority which is supposed to guard patent rights for everybody, and they should not set an example to those who are trying to take advantage of other people’s brains. Either the Government have a right to use this system, or they have not. If the former, there is no harm in their telling the Committee, but there is only one way in which they can possess the unchallengeable right to use it. That is, by getting trie Registrar to say so. They are taking up an altogether improper attitude if they are risking it, saying, “ We may have to defend our action.” I understand that Mr. Balsillie has been beaten in London in connexion with his wireless system; but I believe the Minister now tells me that I am wrong.

Mr Frazer:

– Do not twist my remarks, I did not say that you were wrong.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Minister did not necessarily say that Mr. Balsillie was beaten in connexion with the same system.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Will the Minister say whether this is the same system that has been declared in London to be an infringement of patent rights?

Mr Frazer:

– I assured the honorable member a little while ago that the other day I replied to a question in this House to the effect that it is not the same system.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then I have no more to say.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 51 (Boys’ Training Establishment), £23,000; division 52 (Permanent Forces (Sea-going), £112,500; division 53 (Administrative and Instructional Staff), £22,800; division 54 (Naval Reserve), £17,070; division 55 (Senior Cadets), £25, 901 ; division 56 (Medical Services), £2,500; division 57 (Signal Stations and Examination Services), £2,000 ; division 58 (Maintenance of Ships and Vessels), £64,000; division 59 (Repairs and Maintenance of Naval Works), £2,000; division 60 (General Contingencies), £6,700; division 61 (Postage and Telegrams), £500; division 62 (District HeadQuarters Staffs), £24,000 ; division 63 (Royal Australian Field Artillery), £33,153; division 64 (Royal Australian Garrison Artillery), £111,173 ; division 65 (Armament Artificers), £5,340; division 66 (Royal Australian Engineers), £35,331 ; division 67 (Permanent Army Service Corps), £11,197; division 68 (Permanent Army Medical Corps), £2,895; division 69 (Ordnance Department), £28,396 ; division 70 (Rifle Range Staff), £4,770 ; division 7 1 (District Accounts and Pay Branch), £8,790.. agreed to.

Division 72 (Instructional Staff), £127,732.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

.- The item of £33,600 as. allowance to 224 Area Officers at £150 per annum is one of most serious import to the future of the Defence Forces. The work originally contemplated is not being done at the present time. Some of these officers are struggling to do it to the best of their ability, butI believe that, in some cases, the practical training of the troops is being left to the sergeant-majors. I do not suggest that the Area Officers are not earning their money, but if they are only doing £150 worth of work, the whole scheme is a burlesque and a farce. An Area Officer is supposed to live within his area, to know almost everybody, and to be the moving personality in making the training attractive and effective - to be the moving spirit in his section. No one can pretend that such work is being done at the present time for the paltry salary of £150. The compulsory training will be made or marred in the next five 3years, and during that period we ought to have the best ability that can be pressed into the service. As an expression of my opinion, I move -

That the item, “ Allowances to 224 Area Officers, at£150 per annum,£33,600,” be reduced by £1.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– If the honorable member for Parramatta knows of any officer who is not performing his duties, he ought to acquaint the Defence authorities with the name of that officer. If it can be shown that any officer is not carrying out the work for which he is paid, steps will be taken at the earliest possible moment to put matters right. It is scarcely fair on the part of the honorable member to make a general statement of the kind in regard to the Area Officers, who, I believe, are doing their best.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I made no reflection on them.

Mr ROBERTS:

– I understood the honorable member to say that the work is not being carried out - that the officers are not performing the duty of training the cadets so as to fit them for the Citizen Forces.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I say they are not doing the work it was intended they should do..

Mr ROBERTS:

– Three years ago, when the Defence Bill was before us, I said that it would not be possible to obtain a sufficient number of competent instructors to do the work required within the given period, and the honorable member for Parramatta was one of the first to scout the suggestion.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I did no such thing.

Mr ROBERTS:

– Each of the Area Officers was appointed on the recommendation of some officer fairlyhigh in the service, and they are, so far as I know, the best material available.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– At the price.

Mr ROBERTS:

– They are permitted to follow their civil avocations, and the work, which is not excessive, is adequately paid for. Every effort is made to see that their duties are carried out in such a way as to fit the cadets for the Citizen Forces, and any complaint, so far as I am aware, is always closely investigated at once. It was impossible to make permanent appointments, for this would mean that ultimately, when highly-trained instructors were turned out of the College, there would be practically no work for them to do. At this transition stage the scheme ought not to be criticised as if it were in full working order ; and I ask the honorable member not to press his amendment.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– The Honorary Minister, with his usual cleverness, has misrepresented everything I said. I made no charge against Area Officers of not doing the duty they were set to do ; my complaint is against the Department for giving them this work in such a way and under such circumstances. I am sure the Department has got the best men at the price ; but if the Honorary Minister means that the Department has obtained the best officers in the Force, he knows that is not correct, and he is disingenuous in so putting this matter before us.

Mr Roberts:

– I have not suggested any such thing.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The Honorary Minister, without any qualification, said that the Department had obtained the best officers it could get, and that they had been recommended by officers high in the service. That is so, but before applications were called for the salary was fixed at £150, for which not more than three clays’ work has to be given. If the work is not done the fault lies, not with the Area Officers, but with the Department, which is making shift with these men for four or five years in the inauguration of a new force. This is a total departure from Lord Kitchener’s idea, which was that, in the transition period, the Area Officer should be paid an adequate sum, so that he might be relieved from following his civil occupation. He had to be a militia officer, of course, and the appointment was a temporary one, but the remuneration was to be enough to enable him to employ some one to do his private work. Instead of that, he is putting in not more than three days a week at the work of training, and is supposed to devote the rest of his time to his civil occupation.

Mr Roberts:

– He is not asked to put in three days a week.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I say that he is asked to put in not more than three days a week. Will any one say that he is doing the work” effectively by putting in three clays a week? Six clays a week would be little enough time for the performance of the obligations laid on him. Lord Kitchener repeatedly emphasized the fact that this is the foundation of the whole system. The Department could, and should, have drawn the best men into the work; but, having fixed the salary of an Area Officer at £150a year, it is getting what it is paying for. Young lieutenants are doing this work ; but highly-trained men cannot undertake it because the pay is not high enough. We are getting, not the best ability, but the best ability obtainable at the price.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

– I admit that the Area Officers might be better paid ; but the suggestion of the honorable member for Parramatta seems to be that they should be dismissed and sent about their business. He says that they have not sufficient experience for the work with which they are charged ; that they are doing good work for £1 50 a year ; but that we should appoint officers at a higher salary who would be competent.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I did not suggest that the present men should be dismissed.

Mr J H CATTS:

– In that case, the honorable member must mean that we should continue to pay them £150 a year, and appoint better men in their stead to do their work. Had the honorable member a practical suggestion to make, I should be willing to consider it. I cannot support him as things are.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– If my honorable friend has some special Area Officer to defend, why can he not do it without making imputations against others. I think that the Area Officers should be employed all their time on military work.

Mr J H Catts:

– How much would the honorable member pay them?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– £400 or . £500 a year, if need be; that would not be too much for the responsibility and work entailed in the thorough and efficient discharge of the duties of the position.

Mr J H Catts:

– What would the honorable member do with the present Area Officers ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is a secondary consideration. They would not pretend that they are the most competent officers in the Service.

Mr J H Catts:

– They would contend that they are competent for their work. No one says that they are the most competent in the Service.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– If they are good soldiers, as I believe them to be, they would not put personal considerations before the efficiency of the Defence Force. I would pay an adequate salary, and employ the officers for the whole of their time, putting them to a test to prove their qualifications. They might be appointed for a term of five years. If enough suitable men cannot be obtained here, why should we not import others from abroad? We need the best men.

Mr J H Catts:

– No Australian need apply !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is an idle slander. Honorable members opposite make political capital out of all these matters. They would not care what became of the Defence Force if they could make” political capital out of it. Our first essential is efficiency ; without it our expenditure is wasted. Although spending millions on defence, we intrust the efficiency of the system to militia officers at £150 a year, asking them to give two or three days a week to their work. In four or five years’ time the result will be very serious, and our Army may be marred before those passing through the Military College will be ready to take up their positions. The defence scheme will not get a fair chance unless the Area Officers devote the whole of their time to their duties, and are paid adequately for doing so. I have no complaint against the present Area Officers; I say that the Department does not pay a sufficient salary, and does not require enough work to be done. For a man to devote only half his time to this important military duty is not fair to the Service or to the officer.

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

– My opinion, as an amateur, is that the Area Officers are not fulfilling the purposes for which they were appointed, and not allowing our defence system a fair chance. They were wrongly chosen in the first instance. There were a large number of warrant and non-commissioned officers of experience and knowledge of discipline, tactics, and other matters, who would have been just the material for Area Officers, and the addition of £50 a year to their salaries, with an honorary rank, would have secured their services. I understand that the Minister recently had to issue an order to the present men, asking them to use their common-sense in regard to drills. Complaints were continually reaching honorable members through the press and other sources, about the way in which boys were being drilled for long periods without rest, and in all sorts nf weather, and the system was being brought into disrepute because the Area Officers were incapable of using discretion .

Mr Thomas Brown:

– - The law required a certain amount of work within a certain time.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– The slavish following of regulations is the curse of every military system, and particularly of that of Great Britain, on which ours is founded. The experience and ability of our warrant and non-commissioned officers would have been of great service had they been appointed to act as Area Officers. Were a man of seven or ten years experience to be appointed an Area Officer, he would be on the same level as men possessing no experience at all. Not only is there need for reform in the Postal Department, but great mistakes have been made in the Defence Department, and changes are urgently needed. I hope that when new appointments are made, consideration will be given to those who have experience, and the knowledge necessary to enable them to properly train our future soldiers.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I admit the strength of the objections of the Deputy Leader of the’ Opposition. The training of our future soldiers should not be regarded as a side line by those who are responsible for it. To mv knowledge, a number of our best Area Officers contemplate retiring, because it is not worth their while to devote the whole of their time to their work. A man who cannot make more than £150 a year is not the sort of individual who is qualified to mould the material for our future Defence Forces. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has said that the Area Officers are occupied three nights a week in attending to the duties of their office; but I know that some of them have to work six nights a week. They have to travel long distances in many cases, and their treatment casts a serious reflection upon the Administration. We are undermining the very fabric that we boast of having built up, and we certainly shall not be giving Universal Service a. chance of becoming what if ought to be unless we attract to it the best men available. A number of non-commissioned officers who have had considerable experience - and some of whom have been in the Indian Service - would be delighted to join the Permanent Forces and to act as Area Officers if the salary attaching to the position were adequate. It would not pay them, however, to forsake the callings in which they are at present engaged in order to accept a position in the Department at £150 per annum. They are capable men, and have shown their ability by their success in the profession of arms ; but the Department does not make it worth their while to join our Permanent Forces, and so help Australia in this, the most vital of all undertakings. I hope the Government will regard this matter more seriously than they have done. I understand that the Minister of Defence contemplates waiting for the Military College to turn out officers to staff our area forces: but many years must necessarily elapse before College graduates will be available. I feel so strongly on this matter that I am quite prepared to vote for the proposed reduction. We are not doing a fair thing by the men, and, what is still more important, we are not doing what is right by Australia in failing to secure the very best material we can get for this work.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.Like the honorable member for Brisbane, I have to discuss the question from the point of view of a layman, and I certainly think that some serious blunders have been made in the selection of Area Officers. I cast no reflection on the capacity of those already appointed, but I know that quite a number of men attached to the Defence Forces in my electorate regard as a scandal the way in which boys are required to suit the convenience of the Area Officers in the matter of attending drills. We should appoint officers who can allot for training a time that will suit the convenience of the majority, and not men who can devote only a portion of their time to the work. In many instances school teachers have been appointed as Area Officers, and they have to arrange to drill the lads after school hours. In other cases boys have to travel long distances at night to attend drills in order simply to suit the convenience of the Area Officers. Whilst I do not propose to vote for a reduction of the Estimate, since I believe that the Government are amenable to reason and will try to meet this difficulty, I think the suggestion made by the honorable member for Parramatta, that we should have as Area Officers men who could devote the whole of their time to the training of the lads, is worthy of the consideration of the Minister.

Question - That the proposed vote be reduced by the sum of £1 - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 5

NOES: 31

Majority … … 26

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 73 (Militia), £253,786 ; division 74 (Volunteers), £608 ; division 75 (Camps), £59,946; division 76 (Maintenance of Existing Arms and Equipment), £18,657; division 77 (Ammunition), £87,560; division 78 (General Contingencies), £49,205; division 79 (General Services), £21,160; division 80 (Postage and Telegrams), £3,500; agreed to.

Division 81 (Universal Training - Cadets) , £252,810

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

– Whilst the uniforms that are being supplied to the cadets may be suitable to the climate of the southern States, they are altogether unsuitable for that of the northern State. The material from which they are made is too heavy and too close in texture, having regard to the climatic conditions of Queensland, and the boys there are often to be seen sweltering in them. I take no exception to the style adopted, but I ask the Minister to consider the desirableness of obtaining a lighter material for the uniform to be worn in the northern State.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– There is in this division an item relating to railway fares, and I think that the Department might be a little more liberal in the granting of railway fares, particularly to lads who have to travel long distances to attend drill. Failing such action, additional training centres should be established. In Queensland, we have a number of small towns or villages within a 5-mile radius, and one’ training centre in respect of them means that the boys have either to travel by rail or walk a considerable distance to attend drill.

Mr Roberts:

– I think I can satisfy the honorable member. We have a Bill before the House in regard to the matter of railway fares.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I have been in communication with the Department, and the Government have met me as far as they can. I do not know that a heavier quality of cloth than khaki is being used for uniforms in Queensland ; but the Department are rather slow in issuing uniforms. I know one lad who has been about twelve months in training, and has not received his uniform yet.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– I shall direct the attention of the Minister of Defence to the points raised by the honorable members for Brisbane and Moreton with respect to the weight of clothing that boys are asked to wear in the semi-tropical parts of the Commonwealth, with a view to seeing whether he can possibly make an alteration. As to the other point raised bythe honorable member for Moreton, we have on the table a Bill which has already received the unanimous approval of the Senate, and in which the Minister takes power to allow boys to abstain from drill if they are situated a certain distance from where the parade is to take place. I think that will meet the whole difficulty raised by the honorable member.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 82 (Rifle Clubs and Associations), £94,753, agreed to.

Department of Trade and Customs.

Division 83(Central Staff), £33,163; division 84 (Fisheries), £7,008; division 85 (Quarantine), £26,489 ; division 86 (Analyst), £2,744; division 87 (Lighthouses), £1,710 ; division 88 (New South Wales), £84,870; division 89 (Victoria), £65,995 ; division 90 (Queensland), £60,231 ; division 91 (South Australia), £30,210; division 92 (Western Australia), £32,899; division 93 (Tasmania), £8,590 ; division 94 (Northern Territory), £1,972 ; agreed to.

Department of Home Affairs.

Division 95 (Administrative Staff), £15,959; division 96 (Electoral Office), £6,741 ; division 97 (Public Service Commissioner), £13,555 ; division 98 (Public Works Staff), £27,723;division 99 (Census and Statistics), £14,895 ; division 100 (Meteorological Branch), £25,737 ; division 101 (Lands and Surveys), £5,422 ; division 102 (Works and Buildings), £141,935 ; division 103 (GovernorGeneral’s Establishment), £12,078; agreed to.

Division 104 (Miscellaneous), £122,412.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– Ever since I have been a member of this House, I have taken exception tothesmall amount expended in gratuities to officers who offer valuable and practical suggestions leading to the introduction of useful reforms, and to greater economy and efficiency. Last year I complained that only £2 had been paid under that head. This year, I find that, although £200 was voted in the last Estimates, none of it was spent. I cannot believe that the Commonwealth Departments are so devoid of inventive genius that no claims are made for these gratuities. Either the claims do not reach the proper quarter, or they are turned down by some one who is interested.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister of Home Affairs · Darwin · ALP

– The whole trouble is in a nutshell. It is hard for men at the top, who know all, to realize that men at the bottom can know anything ; and if a suggestion is made, I suppose that often, and perhaps unconsciously, it is thrown aside. I have talked the matter over, and have given directions that, no matter how simple the suggestion is, if it offers economic efficiency, it shall be brought before me so that I may look into it. This year, I think honorable members will find that some of this money may be drawn.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Postmaster-General’s Department.

Division 105 (Central Staff), £223,242.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

– Some time ago, the Government were urged to resume what is known in Sydney as the General Post Office block. Do the Government propose to take any action in that direction? Even prior to the Commonwealth taking over the Post Offices, an attempt was made to have the block resumed for post-office purposes; but since then, the work has assumed such dimensions that every one knows the step will haveto be taken. The telephonic, telegraphic, and postal business have become so large that it would be simply a waste of money to try to make the present Post Office building suitable. As the Commonwealth grows, the necessity for office sites will grow, especially in the large cities ; and Sydney will grow faster than any other part of Australia. A few days ago, the Government proposed to purchase in London a block for the High Commissioner’s office. They now have a grand opportunity to resume this block in Sydney ; and- if they do so, they can expand the Post Office, without interfering with the frontages. A large block at the back of the Post Office can be resumed without much’ expense, because there is a very poor building on a part of it, and another part is vacant. This would serve the Department for a number of years. We are going to have a Commonwealth Bank, and accommodation for it must be found near the commercial part of the city. This block will be very useful for the purpose, and it would pay the Government, as a speculation, to resume it. They can build a larger Post Office there, and still retain the frontages. If they do so, the rents accruing from it will more than pay interest on the capital expended, and probably pay something towards a sinking fund. This sort of thing has been done in London by the County Council, and by other municipal bodies in the large towns in Great Britain. We must have a little foresight in these matters. The members who compose the Federal Parliament are supposed to be statesmen, and as such they must look ahead. If the block is resumed it will not be necessary to start building at once. Only a portion of the additions need be erected and the old buildings could be let. Practically it will be necessary to only purchase the ground, for the buildings on it are in no way commensurate with the land value. This will be a good business investment in the interests of the people of Australia as a whole. I do not support this merely as a local proposal, because I should be quite willing to support a similar investment in any other city. The Postal Commission reported in favour of the purchase of this block, and the State Commission, prior to Federation, made a recommendation to the same effect, and since then greater necessity has been shown for the resumption.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– There is an, item here of £1,600 for three Chief Clerks; and I should like to know what is the idea underlying these new appointments. Apparently the Assistant Secretaryship is abolished; and I desire to know whether this is following, afar off, the recommendation of the Postal Commission for a Board, or whether these Chief Clerks are to assist the Secretary. If their functions axe what I expect them to be, the salaries ought to be much higher. Are they to take charge of the Telegraphic, Telephonic, and

Postal Branches, respectively, under the control of the Postmaster-General?

Mr FRAZER:
PostmasterGeneral · Kalgoorlie · ALP

– These Chief Clerks will be under the Secretary, but they will not necessarily have charge respectively of the branches mentioned by the honorable member. My brief experiences in the Department has convinced me that the work now expected from the Secretary, especially that which involves personal preparation of recommendations before they are submitted to the Minister, is out of all proportion to the possibilities of one individual. It is proposed to delegate to these three Chief Clerks certain functions, not necessarily Telegraphic, Telephonic, Postal, or connected with any other branch, but functions which seem to fall into a regular routine. They will submit recommendations of primary importance to the Secretary, and will be given a certain discretion in matters of minor importance. The Secretary may, or may not, agree with the recommendations they submit to him.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– If they are not of primary importance will these Clerks have power to submit them direct to the Minister ?

Mr FRAZER:

– It is not intended at present that they shall submit recommendations direct to the Minister, but that they shall prepare recommendations for submission to the Secretary ; and if the Secretary deems them of such importance as to be beyond his decision, he will forward them to the Minister. The Chief Clerks are given,- as I say, certain discretionary power to deal with matters not particularly important. In my judgment it is absolutely necessary to have some method of distributing the responsibility in this Department, and it is thought that the one proposed is the best to meet the situation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I am not sure that the idea is not a good one, and what I am complaining of is the status it is proposed to give these Chief Clerks. It is proposed to reserve to them discretionary power without reference either to the Minister or to the Secretary.

Mr Frazer:

– In minor matters?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– What does the Postmaster-General call a minor matter?

Mr Frazer:

– How can I say that?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– These men at £500 per annum are to review the work of Deputies who receive ,£700 or £800 per annum.

Mr Frazer:

– Not necessarily.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– We have had quite enough of youngsters reviewing the work of older men. This has led to infinite trouble, and has had much to do with the disorganization in the Department.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Why not have a board at once?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– This is practically a board, only that experienced Deputies, who ought to be quite equal in status to the Secretary at the Central Office, will have their work overlooked by those below them in that regard, and in salary.

Mr Frazer:

– - The Deputies’ recommendations will come before the Secretary to the Minister.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then why have these Chief Clerks?

Mr Frazer:

– There are many communications that do not come through the Deputies.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not know of any from the States that do not come through the Deputies.

Mr Frazer:

– I could show the honorable member about a hundred communications on my desk to-morrow morning.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– From the States ?

Mr Frazer:

– Direct to the Central Office from individuals in the States.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am talking about business which comes to the head office through the Deputies, and which, I understand, will now go to the three Chief Clerks in the first instance. To have really effective administration, these three Chief Clerks should be the three best men in the States, so that they may have a proper status, and that discipline may be maintained. It is this reviewing of work by younger and lower-paid men which takes the heart out of the senior officers, and the Minister should take care not to re peat the mistake which has already cost thf Department dear. Ten years ago, when the Post Office was taken over and the new system inaugurated, we had men at low salaries reviewing the work of Deputies, and that alone led to the retirement from the service of some of the strongest and ablest men. The chief cause of trouble in the Department is the lack of tone. The Minister is doing the right thing in the wrong way. He will not get proper discipline by having the work of seniors reviewed by juniors.

Mr Frazer:

– Recommendations of importance coming from a Deputy will pass through one of these clerks to the Secretary, for submission to the Minister.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– With the suggestions of the clerks on them.

Mr Frazer:

– Which the Minister may adopt, instead of the Deputy’s recommendations, if he thinks fit.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then the clerks should have a status equal to that of the Deputies.

Mr Frazer:

– Does the honorable member propose to increase the salaries of these clerks by £300 a year?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I have nothing to say about that. My suggestion is in the interests of the smooth working of the Department. A great deal of trouble has been caused by allowing the recommendations of the chief men in the States to be reviewed by juniors in the Central Office.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– To my mind, it is undesirable that the work of highly-paid officers should be reviewed by juniors getting much lower salaries. In New South Wales there are inspectors whose duty it is to report upon the work of postmasters getting higher salaries than they receive. This is undesirable, because it tends to cause friction.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– It has already done infinite damage.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– I hope that the Minister will see his way to make the salaries of inspectors at least equal to those of the men whose work they report upon.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I have a few words to say about the innovation of the Government regarding wireless telegraphy, which the PostmasterGeneral cannot assure us is free from the risks of legal proceedings for the infringement of patent rights. Having taken considerable interest in wireless telegraphy, I wish to condemn what hasbeen done, though I am sorry to have to do this at so late an hour. There has been a good deal of doubt regarding our position in respect to wireless patents, and for some years the Government hesitated about bringing Australia into line with other countries in the provision of wireless communication, because of doubts as to the legal position. I understand that the Telefunken company was prepared to provide an installation, and to erect stations, indemnifying the Government to the amount of £20,000 against any successful action for the infringement of patents. The Government, fearing that it might become involved1 in litigation, declined the offer, though 1 urged its acceptance. I understand, too, that the same company would have sold its rights to the Government for a sum not greatly in excess of the indemnity guaranteed. The guarantee, of course, was to hold good only in connexion with successful actions. It could not be expected that the company would guarantee the Government against trivial or unsuccessful actions. All it meant was that the company would stand by its patents, and that if they were defeated they would pay the Government up to £20,000 for the loss sustained. Everything hung fire until the present PostmasterGeneral stated the other day that, on the advice of an expert recently brought from England, he was adopting a new system, which would be registered ; and, although he could not guarantee that it would not be attacked, he said that he was willing to take the risk. The new system flouts both the Marconi company and the Telefunken company - strong companies with an influential backing. In Australia, the men who have interested themselves in wireless are such men as Mr. Samuel Hordern, Mr. McLeod, of the Bulletin, and Mr. Denison. These big companies, now that, the Government has declined to use their patents, - will not calmly allow themselves to be flouted. It is most unbusiness-like for the Postmaster-General to run the risk of legal proceedings for the . infringement of patent rights.- - Any case that may be brought is likely to l>e a long one, and to be very costly. The Australian rights of the two leading companies could have been bought for from £40.000 to £00,000, an amount which could soon be swallowed up in the legal expenses of a big case. A National Government should hesitate before refusing to recognise master patents considered by the leading counsel of the world to cover all other like patents. Some time ago, the Postal Department told me that, in its opinion, the Telefunken patents were covered by the Marconi patents.

Mr Frazer:

– What does the honorable member mean by the Postal Department?

Mr CARR:

– The honorable member’s predecessor. Now, the Postmaster-General proposes to break new ground. I do not like his attitude. It seems to me not to recognise a high standard of honour in regard’ to patent rights.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The Government should not take risks.

Mr CARR:

– The Postmaster-General admits that there is a doubt as to his posi tion. In my opinion, it would have been better to purchase the patent rights of the two leading companies. The honorable gentleman is acting on the advice of a discredited man. I use the term advisedly. This expert was the adviser of the Radio Telegraphic Company, which had to pay heavily for an infringement of patent rights.

Mr Frazer:

– Does that make him a discredited man?

Mr CARR:

– Yes ; because he was their expert, and gave them wrong advice, causing heavy loss. Now, the PostmasterGeneral accepts his statement that the new system which he is adopting is not an infringement of patent rights.

Mr Fisher:

– There is a vendetta against this officer.

Mr CARR:

– What I have just stated cannot be denied. This officer’s opinion should not be accepted in regard to a decision which may bring upon the Government heavy financial loss. More publicity should have been given to the matter. It does not matter to me what system of wireless is adopted, so long as it is up-to-date. I know the Telefunken people, and am better acquainted with their system than with others. The Government would not accept their system, because they said that the master patents of the Marconi company covered it. Now, however, they are taking the risk of offending both companies. Nothing should be done without careful consideration, and having the whole matter threshed out in Parliament.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is extraordinary that other countries should be able to secure the patent rights of a system of wireless telegraphy, and that Australia, although struggling for years, should not be able to do so.

Mr Fenton:

– Should we be perfectlysafe in adopting any system?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Every other country uses wireless telegraph systems ; we do not hear of other Governments being called to book.

Mr Fenton:

– They are too big to tackle.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I do not think that that is the cause. If the Governments of Great Britain, the United States of America, Germany, France, and, indeed, every European nation are in possession of a wireless system, and are using it, so far as we know, without question, why can we not secure the right to use some recognised system? The position with us is that we entered into a contract with a company to erect certain wireless stations, and that just as one of those stations was about to be used the Minister turned down the Telefunken system and entered into an undertaking-

Mr Frazer:

– Are those statements in accordance with fact?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– No one will deny that, although the original agreement with the holders of the Telefunken rights for Australia was entered into by the honorable member for Bendigo when PostmasterGeneral, the whole terms of the agreement were altered during the term of office of the ex- Postmaster-General, and that he could then have abandoned the system. Instead of doing so he entered into a fresh agreement with them which is open to serious question. We are now entering into a contract with an expert for a new system, and it is hardly to be supposed that that system does not infringe existing patent rights. Whether it does, or does not, we may be sure that it will be challenged.

Mr Frazer:

– The inventor of that system is in no worse position than is either the Marconi company or the Telefunken company. Both have informed me that they are instituting actions against each other, and we have been notified from London that the Marconi company is going to fight to a finish.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– In adopting the new system the Minister is exposing himself to two fires instead of one, and is entering upon a dangerous course. In respect of the Telefunken system the Government had a. guarantee against action and loss for a considerable sum, and would have been much better advised had they stuck to it. Another aspect of the case is that, on the strength of the Government contract - on the understanding that the Commonwealth intended to adopt the Telefunken system throughout Australia- a company was floated to take over that system.

Mr Thomas:

– - Does the honorable member say that there was an understanding that the Telefunken system was to be applied all over Australia?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That was the reasonable supposition, and the company was practically floated on that understanding. The Government are responsible to a great extent for any loss which the shareholders may sustain.

Mr Fisher:

– That is an “ Old Mother Hubbard” tale.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The shareholders do not think that it is.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I think we ought to have a quorum. [Quorum formed.’]

Mr Fisher:

– There are people behind this.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Government are responsible to a great extent for the loss which the shareholders of the Telefunken company have suffered. The PostmasterGeneral was good enough to say just now that there was apparently some one behind us.

Mr Frazer:

– I did not.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I do not know a shareholder in the company referred to, but I protest against the Commonwealth adopting a new system of which they know absolutely nothing beyond what the Government have been told by their expert. As the honorable member for Macquarie has pointed out, that gentleman has already been implicated in litigation in the Old Country owing to his infringement of patent rights - an infringement which led the company with which he was connected into a great deal of litigation and loss. We are probably in a fair way to reap the same results, and there is nothing from a business stand-point to commend this action on the part of the Minister. I wish now to draw attention to the payments made to those in charge of allowance post-offices. The men are paid according to a schedule of rates which, to my mind, is not sufficiently liberal. The Postmaster- General recently decided to abandon the semi-official post-offices, and to appoint an officer at a salary of £110 per annum to take charge of every office having a revenue of over £200 per annum. This means that a man in charge of an allowance post-office with a revenue of £190 per annum, will receive £40 or j£6o a year less than will an officer in charge of an office earning £10 more per annum. That is not fair, and the schedule of payments should be reviewed and considerably liberalized. We cannot expect large payments in respect of small offices in outlying districts, and as a general rule those in charge of them do not ask for anything of the kind. But there are many offices where the work is so considerable as to take up practically the whole of the time of one individual, and where those in charge are not sufficiently remunerated. I hope that the Postmaster-General will take an early opportunity of looking into . the schedule.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– All sorts of statements are being made by Ministers and others as to what is behind our criticism of the proposals of the Government in regard to wireless telegraphy. I desire only to say that, if there is anything behind it, I do not know what it is. I only know that my sole desire is to keep the Minister out of trouble, and there is nothing in respect of which he may more easily fall into trouble unless he is careful, than this very matter. The Minister has told us that the system he is adopting is not that which has been defeated in the Law Courts in London. With that statement I am satisfied so far; but is this system that we are adopting entirely the product of the Minister’s expert? Is it his own?

Mr Frazer:

– I am not at present able to give details of the system that is to be adopted.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then the responsiblity must rest with the Minister.

Mr Frazer:

– And I am prepared to accept it. I have always said that I took all reasonable precautions to protect the interests of the Commonwealth before we decided to adopt this course.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not think that the Minister has.

Mr Carr:

– He admits himself that there is a doubt.

Mr Frazer:

– Of course I do; and I should have had to make the same admission, even if we had adopted the Marconi system.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The Minister could have reduced the element of doubt to a minimum by adopting a recognised system, and paying honestly and straightforwardly for it. The Government ought to run no risks in this matter when there is certitude and safety to be had.

Mr Frazer:

– There is no certitude or safety in regard to wireless telegraphy.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– There is as much certitude in this matter for us as the Governments of other countries have. It is practically certain that the adoption of the Marconi system would not give the Department trouble. By this time, the Marconi system, is almost unchallengeable, and the Minister would be running no risk if he acquired a system’ of that kind and paid for it.

Mr Frazer:

– It is a wonder then that the Cabinet of which the honorable member was a member accepted the Telefunken system.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I had not much to do with the Telefunken system. But even if I made a mistake that is all the more reason why I should warn the present Minister’ not to repeat it. There is nothing more immoral than for a Government to begin trafficking in this kind of thing, unless it isabsolutely sure of its ground.

Mr Fisher:

– We are as sure as men canmake their minds and consciences sure by investigation and the best advice we can. get.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does the Prime Minister think they are as sure in taking this system as they would be if they bought Marconi’s ?

Mr Fisher:

– Surer.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– All right; that will do for me.

Mr Frazer:

– There is ^50,000 difference between the prices.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– I was rather surprised to hear the Prime Minister’s statement that the Government are more certain of what they are doing now than they would be if they purchased a system that has been accepted by many other Governments after the fullest investigation and inquiry. All this trouble has arisen over a wrong step taken in the past.. I have never learned exactly how the preceding Government adopted the suggestion, that the Telefunken company should erect two wireless stations.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– On the advice of the same expert that is now advising in this case.

Mr Frazer:

– No; Mr. Balsillie was not here then.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Then has Mr., Hesketh nothing to do with it?

Mr Frazer:

Mr. Hesketh is not the radio-telegraphic adviser of the Government at the present time.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I am satisfied that a serious mistake was made in the first place. I have never yet learned what share in the income from wireless messages taken at those two stations the Telefunken company were to receive as royalty. There seems to be an inclination on the part of Ministers to withhold information to which? the House is entitled.

Mr Frazer:

– When did the honorable member ask for that information?

Mr WEBSTER:

– I ought not to have toask for it. It ought not always to be necessary to drag information out of theGovernment.

Mr Frazer:

– If the honorable member would indicate his wish the information would be provided.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I have not done so ^because, sometimes, I have asked questions -and have not obtained the information I sought. Honorable members seem to think that when those two stations were erected, and the contract price had been paid, the bargain was closed; but we have yet to learn what proportion of the revenue of the stations was to be taken by the Telefunken -company. We are in the dark on this -question. It may not be advisable to throw any more light on it.

Mr Fisher:

– Hear, hear ! That is really –the difficulty.

Mr WEBSTER:

– It seeems strange -that we cannot learn, as the honorable member for Flinders suggested, whether the Government are taking any steps to test -the validity of the patent they are adopting.

Mr Fisher:

– The Minister said that every step was being taken that a sensible Ministry could take to protect the rights of the Commonwealth.

Mr WEBSTER:

– It would be sensible for the Government to approach the Patent Department to ascertain whether “the system infringes in any way existing wireless rights.’

Mr Fisher:

– Nothing has been neglected that sensible men could do or suggest.

Mr WEBSTER:

– If the Government have not submitted the question to the pro:per authorities, upon whom are they relying? Is it solely on Mr. Balsillie? That officer has only been here a short time, and “his antecedents do not appear to indicate that he won success for those with whom he was previously associated. His credentials do not appear to be altogether of the highest type. He may not be introducing the same radio-telegraphic system that was disallowed in the Old Country. He may be learning by experience, and putting forward an idea by which he thinks he can side-track the other systems. My own opinion is that eventually the Marconi system will be held to be the basis of the whole wireless principle. The Marconi company withdrew their action against the Telefunken company only to initiate a more effective action, taking Sir Oliver Lodge’s patent as the basis. If they can -establish their right to use that patent, then on the previous judgment ‘of the Court they must eventually come out as the real possessors of the wireless system. If that is -so, whatever system we adopt will trench upon their rights, and then we shall be in a most unsatisfactory position. It is a great thing for the Minister to say that he is prepared to take all the risk on behalf of the Commonwealth. Probably Mr. Balsillie feels safer with the knowledge that he has the Government behind him than he did when he had only a company behind him. It is not a very good idea to put Mr. Balsillie forward to register the system on behalf of the Commonwealth, and then give him the sole right to patent it anywhere else. The Commonwealth takes the responsibility of proving whether he is right or wrong, and he takes all the benefits that he may obtain from the rest of the world. The question is not so much whether- we are secure, as whether the bargain made with Mr. Balsillie is a good one. If his patent is successful, and turns out to be better than existing systems, it is going to be a very big thing for Mr. Balsillie, but not for the Commonwealth.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– If it is as good as the Marconi, he is very foolish to stop here with it.

Mr WEBSTER:

– If it is not as’ good, where are we? Either it will prove to be better than the Marconi, and so enable Mr. Balsillie to profit to an incalculable extent) under the conditions to which the Prime Minister has agreed, or it will be worse, and in that case we shall suffer - even if we have not to test the matter in the Courts - through having installed an inferior system.

Mr Frazer:

– Would the honorable member suggest that we should give Marconi £50,000 more for his rights instead?

Mr WEBSTER:

– I am not inclined to help to run the Postal Department any longer. The honorable member does not know what Marconi would ask for his patent rights for Australia. He has never been approached.

Mr JOSEPH Cook:

– I think he has.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I have no knowledge of it. If he was approached, it was probably before the Telefunken company took a hand. Now that he has a competitor, his terms might be more reasonable. I cannot fathom the problem, and must trust to the wisdom of the Government. This I am quite prepared to do.

I would draw the attention of the Minister to the provisions of a measure that is to be submitted relating to the payment of compensation to those dependent on officers who have died while on duty without having received their six months’ furlough. There are in the service, men who, years ago, committed offences which were not serious, but for which a black mark was put against them. Some of them have since served twenty years with a clean record. The Postmaster-General might consider whether those offences should not be overlooked, and the men given the right to have the furlough to which other men are entitled.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member knows that there is a Bill before the House dealing with that matter.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The matter to which I refer is, I submit, not dealt with in the Bill ; and I should like some expression of opinion from the Postmaster-General before the session is over. The recommendation of .the Postal Commission in this regard has been approved by the Public Service Commissioner as equitable, and, that being so, we may reasonably expect the Government to take some action. Can the Postmaster-General tell me whether the fourth, class officers under the schedule now adopted, will receive their increments annually, as a matter of course? The men have a right to know under what conditions they are being employed, and whether the increments are to be annual, biennial, or triennial. The PostmasterGeneral, I understand, is against payment for overtime. This has been a sore point for years with the officers of the Department. Every Arbitration Court and Wages Board have recognised the principle of payment for overtime, and, as the Government have seen fit to place the Public Service under the Conciliation and Arbitration Act, we may take it for granted that they agree with the principle. That being so, they ought to follow the many precedents set, and see that payment for extra work is allowed. At present, men who work overtime are allowed time off in return, but that is a rotten system in any employment. It gives the employe” no respite from his labour, and when he is given leave, it may, perhaps, be at a time when he can make no use of it. Further, overtime is not allowed, so to speak, by the day, but the hours worked during the week are aggregated. The result is that if a man works fourteen hours one day and two hours the next, that is reckoned as sixteen hours’ work, and so on throughout the week. The proper rule to be observed is that, if a man works beyond the ordinary hours in any one day he should be paid at overtime rates; and I invite the Postmaster-General to inform us as to what is intended to be done in this respect. It will be of no use to offer the excuse that employes malinger or anything of that sort, for even if that be so, the management is deficient, in that proper supervisors are not engaged to see that the Government get full value for the wages paid. Then I should like to know what are to be the duties of the extra officers who have been appointed to the Postal Department?

Mr Frazer:

– I have already made a statement in regard to that matter ; and I suggest that the honorable member should read the report of the discussion.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The rapid manner in ‘ which the Minister of Home Affairs juggled through his Estimates caused me to be absent for the moment ; and I do not think it would be much trouble for the Minister to inform me as to the position now. Are these men to be clogs on the wheel and a confusing element, or are they to be an additional check in order to reduce some of the disabilities suffered in the Department. Personally, I cannot imagine what the object can be, except to load up the Central Staff.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I have to express my pleasure at the Prime Minister’s statement in regard to the wireless telegraphy system, and I shall be one of the first to congratulate him if I find he has steered a successful course on an uncharted sea. But whether successful or not, the effect of the action of the Government will be to drive the Marconi company and the Telefunken company into each other’s arms, and cause them to make common cause at law against the Commonwealth, which will be involved in considerable loss, whether it be right or wrong. I think the Government are ill-advised in the course they are taking.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I desire to call attention to a departmental regulation which is about the most woodenheaded I ever knew of. It has been in operation for some time now ; but it ought to be altered at the earliest possible moment. I refer to the regulation under which a double test is applied to the question whether or not a district shall be entitled to a delivery of letters. Before there can be a postal delivery, there must be 100 letters daily for distribution, and the income of the local office must not be less than ,£200 a year. In reality, the number of letters which go through an office ought to be the one and only test. In my own electorate, not far from where I- live, there is an office at which 120 letters are received daily for distribution ; but that office does not earn the required revenue, for the simple reason that many of the residents are in business in the city, and buy their stamps and do other postal business there. In the case of another office, although the number of letters received for distribution may be less than at the office I have just mentioned, more money is earned owing to local circumstances, and, therefore, the privilege of a delivery is granted. If the money for stamps is not being paid over the counter of the local office, it is being paid over some other counter.

Mr Frazer:

– The honorable member will recognise that the Department is not acquainted with the details he has just given us.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I have presented the details to the Department time and again. If the test were applied throughout, the Department would, in many instances, find itself in a ridiculous position. Some of the most important offices do not earn sufficient money to entitle them to the privilege of a delivery; for instance, there are junction and quadruplex offices which do not earn enough to pay the salaries of the men in charge, and yet it is necessary that they should be there. I hope the Minister will look into this matter.

Mr Frazer:

– I shall be pleased to do so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– In regard to the inspectors, I have before urged that there is a strange want of tone in the office from top to bottom1, and that this has led to a great deal of trouble for some time You cannot keep these big business concerns strung up too highly ; the moment they get slack, troubles begin. The way to preserve discipline, and to keep a proper tone, is to be careful about the placing of officers in authority. I have referred to the supervision of the recommendations of £800 a year men by £500 a year men, and I would also draw attention to the fact that some of the inspectors responsible for the organization of the offices of a district are paid less than some of the postmasters in that district, the commencing salary of an inspector being a little over £300 a year, while some of the postmasters may get £100 or £150 a year more. The status of the inspectors should be raised. An inspector has not much encouragement for doing his best to keep a district in a state of efficiency when he knows that the postmaster who in some cases is doing only routine duty is receiving more salary.

Mr FRAZER:
PostmasterGeneral · Kalgoorlie · ALP

– The Government did not embark upon its present policy with regard to wireless telegraphy until it had given the matter the most serious consideration, and there had been protracted negotiations with the two chief wireless telegraph companies of the world. The language I used on the occasion to which reference has been made was carefully chosen.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I thought the honorable member read a statement.

Mr FRAZER:

– No, I did not; but I cannot guarantee that the Government will not have actions brought against it for the infringement of patent rights. Ministers hope that such actions will not be brought. If it be found that we are infringing the rights of any system, we shall be ready to pay. I have carefully avoided any discrimination between the two big competing companies, and shall continue to preserve a neutral attitude. Each has notified me of its intention to take action against the other, and of its expectation of a successful issue.

Mr Carr:

– The honorable member will drive therm into each other’s arms.

Mr FRAZER:

– In any case, we have taken all reasonable precautions for protecting the public interest. Realizing that the establishment of wireless stations is a necessity, we have adopted a particular system, and if it be found that we are infringing patent rights, we shall meet our liabilities as a Government should do. I hope that next session our stations will be fullyequipped, and able to transmit round the coast- any opinions in regard to them or the system employed that honorable members may wish to express. Referring to what has been said about the position of the Chief Clerks, I would explain that it will be their business to deal with the innumerable reports and communications from inspectors and deputies sent on to the Central Office for decision, and with the enormous correspondence of the Central Office. All inquiries, reports, and correspondence will be sorted under their control, and, if possible, dealt with, either directly or by reference to the Secretary, or in important cases by submission to the Minister.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– 1 thought that that work was done in the Correspondence Branch by men getting £250 a year?

Mr FRAZER:

– Yes, and numerous complaints have been the consequence. It is believed that the new system will save a great deal of trouble, and will expedite the answering of correspondence. Having looked into the arrangement very carefully. I think that it is an improvement. I do not agree with the suggestion that it is anomalous that an inspector should sometimes receive less than a senior postmaster.

Mr Webster:

– What will be the relation of the Chief Clerks to the staff ?

Mr FRAZER:

– The Public Service Commissioner will control the various staffs of the Department as heretofore. A Bill has been drafted which will meet the honorable member’s view in regard to furlough. It provides that when an officer has been in the Public Service for at least. twenty years he may be granted, on the recommendation of the Commissioner, leave of absence for a period not exceeding twelve months on half pay, or six months on full pay. The Commissioner will thus have a discretionary power which he does not possess at present.

Mr Webster:

– That does not remove the disability of an officer who may have committed an offence twenty years ago.

Mr FRAZER:

– It gives the Commissioner a discretionary power.

Mr Webster:

– In any case, the matter cannot be discussed now.

Mr FRAZER:

– In regard to increments, fifth class officers get them automatically, but with fourth class officers their payment depends on good conduct, though officers giving anything like reasonable service seldom fail to get them. For overtime the Department gives time off in lieu, money payments having been found unsatisfactory.I am aware that the Arbitration Courts of at least two of the States have in particular cases awarded special rates for overtime, but we think it better to compensate for it by time off, and the greatest consideration is shown for the officers’ convenience in allotting it.

Mr Joseph Cook:

-I notice that £2,000 is set down for motor cars.

Mr FRAZER:

– Those are cars for gathering up the contents of the pillarboxes.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 106 (New South Wales), £1,311,375 ; division 107 (Victoria), £886,387 ; division 108 (Queensland), £552,646 ; division 109 (South Australia), £316,118: division no (Western Australia), £366,956 ; division in (Tasmania), £151,960; agreed to.

Division 2 (Northern Territory),. £18,476.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.. -I find the sum of £350 is put down for two fifth-class telegraphists, while last year £530 was provided for three, and there isa fourth-class telegraphist at £185. Why has the strength of the Adelaide officebeen reduced? I understood that it was undermanned.

Mr Frazer:

– Two fifth class telegraphists are provided for the Northern Territory. The appropriation for last year was £530; but the expenditure for the year is not shown because the particularshad not been furnished before the preparation of these Estimates.

Mr WEBSTER:

– According to the information given in these Estimates, threeofficers were employed in 1910-11 ; but onlytwo officers are required in 1911-12, showing a reduction by one officer.

Mr Frazer:

– Presumably it has been thought that two officers will meet the necessities of the Department in that locality-

Proposed vote agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That the Supplementary Estimates of expenditure for the year ended 30th June, 1910, be agreed to.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– What is the amount of these Estimates?

Mr Fisher:

– The amount is £95,815. Motion agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That the Supplementary Estimates for Worksand Buildings for the year ended 30th June, 1910, be agreed to.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– What is the amount of these Estimates?

Mr Fisher:

– £69,108.

Motion agreed to.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move-

That a sum not exceeding£100,000 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year ending 30th June, 1913.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– What ! For twoyears ahead?

Mr FISHER:

– The object of this motion is to provide a Treasurer’s advance for the first month of the next financial year. Although the intention of the Government is to call Parliament together before the end of the current financial year - and it will be convened bar accident before that time- I think it is convenient that a Treasurer’s advance should be supplied for thefirst month of the next financial year.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– £300,000?

Mr FISHER:

– I think so, because an enormous amount will be required for carrying on public works. But if the honorable member thinks that it is too much I do not mind meeting his wishes.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– This has never been done before.

Mr FISHER:

– Yes it has.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK. (Parramatta) £4.32 a.m.].- -I have never known the House before to vote money for two years ahead.

Mr Fisher:

– No, for one year.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– 1913 is the year which is mentioned in the motion.

Mr Fisher:

– This amount is required for the Treasurer’s advance for the month of July, 1912* It is in the financial year 1912-13.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does the honorable member for Gwydir believe in voting supply for over twelve months ahead?

Mr Webster:

– I do not know what it means.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Does not the honorable member think it is about time that he did ? By the time he gets over to this side of the chamber, this Government will have set more bad precedents for the Government of the day than have ever been set by any previous Government. Here is one of them. In 1911 we are asked to vote £300,000 for the year 1913.

Mr Frazer:

– Last year we took two months’ Supply for the next financial year.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not recollect the case. I ‘believe that this is the first time it has been attempted to be done.

Mr Frazer:

– How did we run to the 5th September if we did not do so?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Perhaps the Government did. I have been in Parliament for twenty-one years, and I have never known this thing to be done before, except for a special reason. The Caucus has practically killed this Parliament. There is no review or control of the public finances.

Mr Webster:

– Does the honorable member mean that the Caucus has killed the Opposition or the Parliament?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It has killed the opposition in Parliament in that such opposition can be of little effect, and it has also killed parliamentary government. Parliament has no more control of the finances to-day than has the pencil which I hold in my hand.

Mr Webster:

– Why?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Because honorable members do not take any interest in them. We have been voting millions tonight while they have been asleep. There has been no criticism, no trouble about anything except to let items go through. It is time that the country began to open its eyes and see what is really going on here. Here we are asked, to cap it all, to vote money for 1913, I can do nothing but protest now. Our duty outside, of course, will be to point out what has gone on inside. I protest against a proposal of this kind being put through at 20 minutes to s o’clock in the morning, after we have been sitting since half-past 10 o’clock on the previous morning. This is legislation by the sheer weight of numbers - by exhaustion. It is a legislative orgy. There is not an honorable member who will pretend that he has a grip of the business which is going through. I know that I have not. The sooner the country realizes that the Caucus has destroyed this Parliament for the time being, the better it will be.

Mr SCULLIN:
Corangamite

– I think that the Committee is entitled to know why this money is wanted. Some remarks of the honorable member for Parramatta were justified, but nine-tenths of them were not. His remarks about the Caucus were absolutely unjustified. I think that if a little more explanation of proposals were given, there would be less dissatisfaction from both sides of the Chamber. I am not very experienced in parliamentary or financial matters, but I do think that when a month’s supply for 1913 is asked for, at least five minutes’ explanation of the reason for the proposal should be given to the Committee.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– Ever since this Parliament commenced- it has been a subject of complaint that its financial arrangements were defective, to this extent, that, do as we would, the votes for public works lapsed on 30th June, and all accounts had to be closed on that date, unless, of course, some provision had been made to provide supply for the new financial year, lt has been suggested that the Audit Act should be amended so as to allow the Treasurer to finance public works for the first month of the new financial year, and thus prevent embarrassment. This suggestion has not been adopted ; but this difficulty has been recognised by all parties in power. The only way is to appropriate, in the current financial year, a sum to cover the first month of the next. financial year, in order to prevent a jarring stoppage. I have stated that, in all probability, Parliament will be called together before the end of the present financial year ; but, even then, it would be most difficult to get Supply in time. No danger to the public convenience, or to the good government of the Commonwealth, can arise out of what I propose. It is not a case of appropriating money for new works, but a case of placing in the hands of the Treasurer a sum out of which he can make advances from time to time for works in progress. If I thought for a moment that my proposal was open to serious objection, or violated! the sound principle of a full control of the finances, whatever the disabilities might be, I should not ask the Committee to approve of it ; but I am sure that honorable members who have given any thought to the matter, will admit that this is not only a sensible, but a necessary, provision to make.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– What the Prime Minister proposes to do is to obviate the necessity of passing a Supply Bill. Is it for July, 1913?

Mr FISHER:

– No; July next. The honorable member has stated that the object of this proposal is to appropriate Supply for a month’s services in the next financial year. It is nothing of the kind. Until a Supply Bill is passed after the close of the financial year there can be no Treasurer’s Advance for the first month of the new year. This is only to cover the Treasurer’s Advance, and is not an appropriation in respect of Supply for the first month of the next financial year. It is simply designed to enable public works to be carried on. The principle is a sound one. If I had any doubt as. to that I should not ask honorable members to agree to the course that I have invited them to take. If honorable members on either side are in any way apprehensive I would much rather drop the motion altogether, although by so doing we shall inconvenience the Service.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– Despite the Treasurer’s explanation, the fact remains that this money could be voted next year before it is required, unless we are not to meet again until next July.

Mr Fisher:

– We intend to call Parliament together before then.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then this proposal is unnecessary, and I marvel at the audacity of the Prime Minister in bringing it forward in the circumstances.

Mr Fisher:

– While in opposition, I have supported the adoption of the same procedure.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– This has never been done before. If the Prime Minister will show me a precedent for his contemplated action, I shall say no more.

Mr Fisher:

– It has been done on two or three occasions, and as late as last session.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That was, however, a special occasion, as a number of members, including several Ministers, were proceeding to .London in connexion with the Coronation celebrations. We then passed a Bill covering two months’ Supply, whereas the Prime Minister himself says that this is not a demand for a month’s Supply but only for an advance to the Treasurer. I cannot find a shred of excuse for voting now money that can well be voted later on within the financial year. . Unless the Government intend to refrain from meeting Parliament again until June or July, there can be no excuse for the course now proposed. If the Treasurer wants an advance he will be able to obtain it on the first day that the House meets after the recess.

Mr Fisher:

– If there is any objection I shall not press this proposal.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think it is a wrong principle.

Mr. FISHER (Wide Bay- Prime Minister and Treasurer [4.51 a.m.]. - To show the position that I take up,, let me say at once that I have no objection to withdrawing the motion on the statement made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that Supply will be granted as soon as Parliament meets.

Mr Webster:

– That has always been done.

Mr FISHER:

– No. Whoever has charge of the finances of the Commonwealth will find it’ necessary and advisable to make provision for overlapping at least into one month of the next financial year.

Mr Scullin:

– We can get over the trouble by meeting early next year.

Mr FISHER:

– Even that in some cases would not - overcome the difficulty. The States that are wisely administered have made provision in their Audit Acts for an overlapping in respect of one month of the new year ; but in view of the objection that has been raised to this motion I shall drop it altogether.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– There seems to be no reason for this motion. Ever since I have been a member of this House no trouble has been experienced in obtaining Supply when required for the Public Services. As to the desire of the Treasurer to secure a vote to meet excess payments over the year, I think that his object could best be met by the establishment of a trust fund.

Mr. Fisher.Honorable members would have less control over that.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I think not, and that, to my mind, is the proper way of overcoming the difficulty with regard to the overlapping of work. It is adopted by other Legislatures, and by many big business concerns.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I desire honorable members to thoroughly understand that what the honorable member for Parramatta proposes is that, instead of passing this resolution now, we should deal with it in May or June next, in the same financial year as that for which we are now legislating. I shall not press the motion.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I did not entertain any serious objection to the proposal of the Prime Minister to obtain what is really one month’s Supply in respect of the new financial year, save that I thought that it was made in order that Parliament might not be called together after the recess until next July. I am certainly opposed to such a long recess, and hope that the Parliament will meet at the very latest in May next.

Resolutions reported.

Standing Orders suspended and resolutions adopted.

Resolutions of Ways and Means covering resolutions of Supply adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Fisher and Mr. Hughes do prepare and bring in Bills to carry out the foregoing resolutions.

page 4809

APPROPRIATION BILL 1911-12

Bill presented by Mr. Fisher, and read a first and second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Schedule.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I should like to know what the Government propose to do with regard, to the Public Service Bill which has been introduced. Are we to understand that that Bill, which provides for three reforms, re presents the totality of their efforts in the direction of a modification of the Public Service Act?

Mr Fisher:

– For this session.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Do the Government contemplate taking any action next session ?

Mr Fisher:

– Yes.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Are we to have an amending Bill next session?

Mr Fisher:

– Consideration is being given to that matter; but the Bill now before the House relates to urgent matters recommended by the Public Service Commissioner, and regarded as urgent, I think, by all parties.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then the Bill now before the House does not provide for the reform of the Public Service Act contemplated at the beginning of the session ?

Mr Fisher:

– It is a reform.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– But not a complete reform ?

Mr Fisher:

– Exactly.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

page 4809

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL 1909-10

Bill presented by Mr. Fisher, and passed through all its stages.

page 4809

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1909-10

Bill presented by Mr. Fisher, and passed through all its stages.

page 4809

ASSENT TO BILLS

Assent to the following Bills reported : -

Arbitration (Public Service) Bill.

Land Tax Assessment Bill.

Seamen’s Compensation Bill.

page 4809

PACIFIC CABLE BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4809

TELEGRAPHS AND TELEPHONES SPECIAL WORKS ACCOUNT BILL

(/« Committee) Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message:

Mr FRAZER:
PostmasterGeneral · Kalgoorlie · ALP

– I move-

That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue and moneys be made for the purposes of a Bill for an Act to authorize the expending of moneys paid into the Trust Fund Telegraphs and Telephones Special Works Account.

When the Treasurer delivered his Budget he announced that it was the intention of the Government to set aside a certain sum of money, namely, £600,000, for the use of the Postal Department to meet necessitous cases which might occur in the different States. He also intimated that before any portion of that money was disbursed, a schedule would be submitted to Parliament showing the headings under which it would be spent. It is in fulfilment of that promise that this Bill is now brought forward. In all the States a certain number of works have been embarked upon in anticipation of the Treasurer providing the necessary money to enable them to be carried out. The complaint upon all occasions has been that money has not been available until it has been voted by Parliament, and that consequently a number of public works, which have been approved, could not be undertaken. I have, with the consent of the Treasurer, issued instructions that as many of the authorized works as possible are to be proceeded with, and in this Bill it is proposed to vest the Postal Department with power to utilize any surplus which may accrue from one work to meet any deficiency which may occur in connexion with another. It is thus hoped that we shall be able to make a very considerable advance in our postal equipment within a couple of years.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– This is not the time to discuss the schedule of the Bill, and I confess that I cannot understand that schedule.

Mr Frazer:

– It is exactly the same as the Estimates.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Not quite. I did not observe in the Estimates as many blanks as appear in this Bill. I take it to be a really consequential measure, and I merely wish to say that a couple of years ago the ex-Postmaster-General, with a great flourish of trumpets, and in a spasm of zeal, announced his intention to set this Department upon a business footing. Its various services were to be made to pay for themselves. That was his guiding principle. But at the end of two years of his reforming zeal, this great Department, which has enjoyed the blessings of his more businesslike control, will be only £2,000,000 to the bad. I know that that is not quite a fair way of putting the position, but if we add together the interest and all moneys which have been expended upon the Department since it was taken over by the Commonwealth, it stands in debit to-day to the tune of £5,500,000. Good old Socialism ! We ought to imitate it somewhere else.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– I would like the Postmaster- General to inform me whether the amounts provided in this Bill relate to works which should be constructed out of the ordinary maintenance vote, or whether they relate to new works ?

Mr Frazer:

– They are intended to be over and above the amounts which are provided in the ordinary Estimates for specific works.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I observe that there is no reference in the measure to the Geelong experiments in regard to the automatic telephone system, and I should like to know what the cost of that system will be.

Mr Frazer:

– Roughly it will be about £32,000. The preliminaries have been perfected in Geelong, the material is expected to arrive early in January, and it is anticipated that the system will be in operation by the middle of March.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution reported.

Motion (by Mr. Frazer) agreed to -

That the Standing Orders be suspended to enable the Bill to pass through its remaining stages without delay.

Resolution adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Frazer and Mr. Hughes do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill presented and (on motion by Mr. Frazer) read a first and second time.

In Committee :

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Apportionment of moneys to be expended).

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– Under this Bill it is intended to appropriate £600,000 during the current financial year for the construction of telegraph and telephone lines and for carrying out special works in connexion with the Postal Department. Of that sum £266,000 is to be expended in New South Wales. I wish to bring under the notice of the PostmasterGeneral the fact that a considerable number of works in that State are hung up pending the passing of next year’s Estimates, because the Department has neither the money nor the labour at its disposal to carry them out. The circumstances involve a considerable delay, not to mention the great inconvenience to which those persons whose interests are at stake are subjected. I do not know whether there is any possibility of expediting these works, but if there is, in the interests of the Department and the public, they should be expedited. There is another phase of this question which ought to be looked into. It is well known that during the first few years of Federation the Postal Department was starved. The expenditure upon it was insufficient to keep the lines and instruments in an up-to-date condition, and I am credibly informed that a considerable amount of the trouble which is experienced in the General Post Office, Sydney, to-day in connexion with overtime is due to the inefficient lines which have to be worked. It is not possible to get the messages over them in the way that it would be if they were in a proper state, and. these circumstances give rise to a suspicion that the officers are not adequately discharging their duties. It is all very well for the Postmaster-General to’ come here and quote the number of hours which are being worked by certain officers and the low average message transmission, but he entirely overlooks the fact that they have to deal with very inefficient material. This is a phase of the question which should be investigated as early as possible, and a special appropriation should be made to bring the existing lines into a state of efficiency.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In connexion with the construction of telegraph and telephone lines, there is one matter which I desire to bring under the notice of the PostmasterGeneral, namely, the frequency with which honorable members receive communications from the Department after telephone lines have been approved, stating that the works will be proceeded with at some future date - very often the following year. We are frequently informed that the contractors are behind with the supply of poles and cabinets. Is there not some means by which a supply of these necessary materials could be kept on hand ? Most commercial institutions would see that a sufficient stock was available to meet all reasonable requirements. The Railways Commissioners, when running their trains, take good care to keep stocks of coal on hand at convenient places. Similarly, municipalities do not wait foi road con tractors to supply material for every job just when it is required. They keep stocks on hand. Surely a big Department like the Postal Department ought to be able to devise some means by which it can get ahead of its supplies, and thus obviate the vexatious delays which occur in carrying out necessary works. Months after a particular work has been approved I have frequently received complaints from residents in various parts of my own State that no steps had been taken to carry it out.On asking the reason for the delay, I have been informed by the Department that the contractor is behindhand in the supply of telephone cabinets, and that the line can-> not be carried any further because the contractor for the supply of the necessary poles is not able to provide them in time. This seems a peculiar method of conducting business. Contracts are let for supplying only, a small number of telephone cabinets. Why, can they not be let for 5,000 or 10,000 if necessary, seeing that the population isgrowing, and the demand for these conveniences is constantly increasing? However, we on this side have to recognise that’ we are in a minority, and are simply tolerated, our representations being treated with indifference by’ a Government who can rely upon a very comfortable majority. I hope the Postmaster-General will agree to postpone the consideration of this measure until we have had an opportunity to peruse the items. A number of honorable members on this side went home in the belief that nothing but the Estimates would be touched to-night.

Mr Frazer:

– They had no justification for that belief.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They have every justification in reason and common sense. I protest against this inhumantreatment as being absolutely unnecessary.,

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) (5.30 a.m.]. - When the Prime Minister promised to bring down the items,- making, up the vote of £600,000, the idea was that we should know just how it was to be spent. I defy anybody to say how it is to be spent under this schedule, although a rough outline is given. Clause 3 makes the schedule of absolutely no effect.

Mr Frazer:

– It is absolutely necessary, in order to run the Department properly, to be able to transfer a surplus from one work to another.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The transfer of votes can be done by Executive action how.

Mr Frazer:

– Only after specific and continuous references to the Treasury - a cumbersome, wasteful, and costly method.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It was done in my time in the Defence Department, and is quite common in the States. I think votes can even be transferred from one Department to another. Even if this Bill is passed, the Postmaster-General will not be able to transfer money from item to item without the consent of the Treasury.

Mr Fisher:

– I doubt very much whether the Treasury can transfer ordinary votes.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It is done every month. If we authorize the transfer of votes, the schedule might as well be torn up.

Mr Fisher:

– The Auditor-General will not allow money to be transferred from one vote to another without drawing attention to it. They would have to be cognate votes ; otherwise abuses could easily arise.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– All votes in a Department are cognate, and transferring has been done for years by Executive action. The schedule says that the money is to be spent as outlined, but clause 3 says it can be spent in any other way the Government choose.

Mr Frazer:

– Clause 3 provides that if there is a surplus in one item, it may be transferred to another item for which the funds are deficient.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It means that if the Government have not spent the money in one direction, they can spend it in another.’

Mr Fisher:

– It makes the arrangement more flexible, and altogether is far better than Executive action.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It is made so flexible that there is really no use for the schedule.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir
Mr Fisher:

– The Sill is for two years.

Mr WEBSTER:

– What will be the effect on the telephonic and telegraphic services if this money is spread over two years? It does not touch the £2,000,000 which the Postal Commission recommended should be spent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is part of the £2,000,000, and another £700,000 was included in the Works Estimates.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I understand that this vote has nothing to do with bringing the Department up-to-date.

Mr Fisher:

– It has.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I am continually receiving letters to the effect that the Department recognise the justice of carrying out a certain service, but that it cannot be done this financial year, that there is no hope for it in the next financial year, and that probably it will be remembered in the financial year succeeding. I have even got as far as the year 1913-14 in the case of one application.

Mr Frazer:

– I should like to know Who sent it to you.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The Department sent it. The statement which I received is that certain things were to be done this 3’ear, others things might be done next year, and that others might be considered in the year after.

Mr Fisher:

– There is far too much of that kind of nonsense in the Department.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Whilst these works are not being done the Department are losing money, and the public are losing the use of conveniences to which they are entitled. Can the Postmaster-General indicate whether any of this money is being voted for the extension of works which are net going to pay? Will he tell us whether the existing works are paying, and how much they are paying, and, if they are losing, how much the loss is. Has the Minister with his new accountant arrived at any solution of the financial position of the telephonic and telegraphic services in one or all of the States?

Mr Frazer:

– The telephonic accounts are not yet complete, nor are the telegraphic.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I do not object to the method of transfer provided for iri clause 3. It is not always possible to make an accurate estimate of what a certainwork will cost. Can the PostmasterGeneral state whether the amount provided in the schedule is sufficient to complete the new common battery switchboard for the Sydney General Post Office? That is an essential work.

Mr Frazer:

– Yes.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Is the amount included in this schedule, and is the work likely to be completed during the present financial year?

Mr Frazer:

– It is partially provided for in the general Estimates.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Can the Minister tell me that the Department will be able to spend this money within, say twelve months from now ?

Mr Frazer:

– I have given instructions to the responsible officers to do their best to meet the public requirements within the limits of the provision made by Parliament. They have been instructed that all works authorized are to be undertaken as early as possible, and where the departmental gangs cannot be sent from any particular centre, local labour is to be employed to carry out the works under departmental supervision, and at the ordinary rates of pay.

Mr WEBSTER:

– That is rather promising, and I am hopeful now that by this time next year it will not be necessary to say so much about the imperfections of this Department.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am, of course, very glad to see this money voted for telephonic and telegraphic works, but what we all most desire is to see these works carried out as rapidly as possible. The Minister was good enough recently to answer the following questions submitted by the honorable member for Cowper : -

  1. How many applications for country tele phone lines are now before the PostmasterGeneral?
  2. How many of these lines are approved for construction ?
  3. How many is it estimated will be erected in this financial year?

The answer supplied to the first question was 160. It was stated that 96 of these had actually been approved, and that the Department were going to carry out within the year only 48.

Mr Frazer:

– That reply disgusted me, and led to the instruction I have recently given.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is the sort of thing which has been disgusting honorable members for a very long time. They have found that although works have been approved, and the money appropriated by Parliament to carry them out, the Department will not carry them out.

Mr Frazer:

– When I found that only half of the approved works were to be carried out, it led me to make things rather interesting in another quarter, with the result that an effort will be made to secure the more rapid completion of approved works in the future.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am glad to hear that statement, which, I am sure, will give considerable relief to many honorable members.

I wish to ask, in connexion with the suggested transfer of votes, whether amounts transferred from one vote to another will affect in any way the total amount to be expended on any work.

Mr Fisher:

– No ; and the transfers will probably be to votesfor the construction of works of a similar character.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– What I wish to be sure of is that there will be no possibility of moneys appropriated for country telephone lines eventually being expended in the cities.

Mr Fisher:

– No; it is probable that if there is any transfer at all it will bethe other way about.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

Schedule.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I should like the Minister to give some explanation of the fact that while amounts appear against some of the items of the schedule, there are other items to which 110 amounts are attached.

Mr FRAZER:
PostmasterGeneral · Kalgoorlie · ALP

– The Government Printer, in dealing with these items has a general instruction to follow the information given in the schedule of the Estimates. The items to which no amounts are attached are items in connexion with which it is considered that sufficient provision has been made under specific votes in the main Estimates.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I frankly admit that I am chiefly concerned about items relating to metallic circuits. Only £16,600 is proposed for metallic circuits in New South Wales. I have experience of the telephone systems of all the States, and I believe that the New South Wales system is the worst of them all.

Mr Frazer:

– Item No. 4 dealing with metallic circuits is inter-related with item No. 2 dealing with the construction and extension of lines and of conduits, and in replacing the wires underground.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I suppose that to some extent that is so. What we should like to see is a bold stroke made to complete the metallic circuits. I am afraid that if the Postmaster-General had even more money to spend he could not spend it with the staff at the disposal of the Department.

Mr Frazer:

– I have told the honorable gentleman of the extremity to which we are ndw reducedin having to ask people concerned to do this work themselves at reasonable rates under the supervision of the Department.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think that is a very sensible course to follow, because the Minister must realize that he could not within the time spend the money voted on these works with the departmental staff alone.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I understand that in the EstimatesinChief we have passed votes to the amount of £3,827,000, a special vote of £700,000 for works, and the vote of £600,000 with which we are now dealing, making a sum of £1,300,000 overand above the ordinary Estimates to be expended by this Department during the year.

Mr Frazer:

– We have appropriated £1,300,000 this year for works.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– About £300,000 over the appropriation for last year, plus this £600,000.

Mr FENTON:

– That will be £900,000, and all I can say is that I hope the Postmaster-General will hurry up, and if the departmental staff is unable to cope with the works that he will secure outside assistance.

Mr Frazer:

– I have said that I am prepared to do that.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 4814

COMMONWEALTH BANK BILL

Consideration of Senate’s amendments resumed from 15th December (vide page

4532).

Clause 48 -

Where a person fraudulently represents himself to be a depositor and presents the depositor’s pass book, and complies with the rules of the bank and thereby obtains any money belonging to the depositor deposited with the bank by way of Savings Bank deposit, the bank shall not be responsible for the loss sustained.

Senate’s Amendment. - Leave out the clause.

Upon which Mr. Fisher had moved -

That the amendment be disagreed to.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– So far as I know, this is quite an unusual procedure. I have not previously known amendments made by another place considered in the House. We should go into Committee to consider these amendments. I should like to know when the new practice was first adopted.

Mr SPEAKER:

– This practice has been followed since the inception of theFederal Parliament. It is quite a common practice. If amendments made by another place are not of a technical or difficult character they are commonly dealt with in the House; otherwise, they areconsidered in Committee. When this Bill was returned from the Senate, it was not considered that the amendments were of great importance, and their consideration was at once proceeded with in the House. Two have already been so dealt with.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.I wish to say that I agree with the amendment of the Senate. The clause makes provision that in the case of fraudulent withdrawals from the Commonwealth Savings Bank, the bank is not to be liable. I point out that if private banks make a mistake, arid hand out a depositor’s money to the wrong person, they are liable. I think that a similar liability should attach to the Commonwealth Savings Bank as well as to the commercial side of the Commonwealth Bank. It should not be forgotten that inwithdrawing money from the Savings Bank, the depositor will hand in his cheque with his pass-book.

Mr Fisher:

– The withdrawal may not always be made from the branch in which the specimen signature of the depositor is kept.

Mr J H CATTS:

– Then it is proposed that money may be withdrawn from branches other than those in which it has been deposited?

Mr Fisher:

– That is so.

Mr J H CATTS:

– It might have been provided that where money was fraudulently withdrawn from a branch in which! it had not been deposited by the person inwhose name it was withdrawn, the bank would not be liable, but clause 48 is a general provision, and would apply to the branch in which the money was deposited, and in which the specimen signature of the depositor is kept. I shall not take up time unnecessarily in discussing the matter now, but I agree with the amendment, and if a division is called for I shall make one toassist in striking out this clause.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It was my intention to refer to thisclause when the Bill was going throughthis House. I agree with the honorablemember for Cook that it relieves the bank from a responsibility which it should never be relieved from for more reasons than one.

If a private banking institution pays on a forgery, it is liable, no matter how good the forgery may be, and I may say that I have seen forged cheques which, since proof could not possibly be supplied at the time they were presented, could not be detected as forgeries. Yet the bank had to make the money good. My principal objection is that the clause places great temptation in the way of the officers of the bank. It places in their hands an instrument which, I venture to say, will some day be used, and that, in my opinion, is most unwise.

Mr Fisher:

– There is the same provision in the case of other Savings Banks.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It does not necessarily follow that it is a good provision. The only Savings Bank in Australia which has the advantage of such a condition is, I think, the bank in Western Australia.

Mr Fisher:

– And in Queensland.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If a depositor posted his bankbook to the bank, it, of course, would come into the hands of the employes of the bank, who would be in a position to perpetrate a fraud, with the assistance of an accomplice, in which case the depositor would lose his money, and have no action against the bank.

Mr Fisher:

– This bank, and, I am sure, every bank, would pay if its officers were at fault.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It would have to be proved that the officers were at fault, and the clause merely offers a premium on fraud. If the bank were liable the officers would know that no stone would be left unturned in order to trace the perpetrator of any forgery.

Mr Fisher:

– And so “with the Commonwealth Bank and any other respectable bank.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It makes a great difference whether, the bank has to pay. I do not say for a moment .that the bank officers will not, as a rule, do their best; but, if the bank is liable, there will not be so much incentive to wrongdoing. I think the Government will be well-advised to accept the Senate’s suggestion.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I suggest that the clause should be so drafted as to provide that only in cases of negligence on the part of the depositor the bank shall not be liable. Under the clause, as it left this House, poor people might be victimized, and it would be a distinct hardship for them to lose on account of a forgery.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

– My experience is that people who deposit money in Savings Banks take the utmost care of their bank books, and in such case, there is no chance of any other person being able to operate on an account. It is frequently found that beggars, who are never suspected of having a banking account, have concealed about them Savings Bank books; and this only shows .the care with which such valuable documents are safeguarded. Much was said elsewhere about servant girls losing their bank books, but I may say that, as a plumber, I had much to do with private houses, and I found that the servant girls were very careful, indeed, to allow no one else to have the book but themselves. There was no dissentient voice raised in the House in regard to this clause; and, after all, to remove it is, in my opinion, simply to offer a temptation to fraud. Even a depositor might enter into an arrangement with an accomplice to draw his money, and to then sue the bank. When we protect the Savings Bank we are protecting the community generally ; and, under all the circumstances, I think we ought to reinstate the clause.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

– I do not see why the Savings Bank should not take the responsibility. If a man’s house were broken into, his bank, book stolen, and his deposit drawn on a forged signature, the bank would, under the clause, go scot free. My own idea is that a large banking institution should place a certain percentage aside for contingencies of the kind. People who intend to commit frauds of the kind will go about the business in no haphazard fashion, but will be prepared with signatures and other proofs necessary to satisfy the banks. As to the argument about reasonable care, I suppose that a depositor would be able to show that he was in no way to blame in this regard.

Mr Fisher:

– That would have to be proved.

Mr RILEY:

– That means that depositors would have to go to Court in order to prove their case. This Savings Bank, like any other business concern, ought to be prepared to take risks, and we know that to go to law with a bank is like going to law with a Government.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

. -A curious fact about this clause is that it is operative only in regard to the Savings Bank branch, which is used principally by those who have the least experience of banking. This legislation would, therefore, appear to be against the interests of the most ignorant portion of the community, if I may so describe them. Amongst certain people it is the easiest thing to persuade them to give up their bank books, and many a time I have been made the custodian of such books for safe keeping, although I pointed out that this was against the intention of the Act of Parliament. My own mother, who had not sufficient experience to draw a cheque in the ordinary way, placed her money in the Savings Bank. I received a letter from the late Sir Graham Berry, late Treasurer of Victoria, assuring me that there was no such account, but when I returned to England some years later, I found the book, and then it was possible to pay the deposit. Further, I have known of instances where depositors have suffered loss, simply through their bankbook being stolen, and other instances where wives have drawn husband’s deposits and vice versa. As I have said, this provision operates only in the case of the Savings Bank branch.

Mr Fisher:

– There is no such passbook in connexion with ordinary banking.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– An example is furnished in the case of a deposit receipt, say, for hundreds of pounds, for money lodged in an ordinary bank. That money cannot be withdrawn without the production of the deposit receipt. But even if the deposit receipt should be stolen or destroyed the bank is nevertheless answerable to pay the money. The average person who puts a few pounds in the Savings Bank_ cannot be expected to have as much banking knowledge as big financial magnates possess.

Mr Fisher:

– It is not needed. The only thing that the depositor need know is that he must hang on to his bank book. Payment is stopped immediately if the bank is notified that the book is lost.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– This is aimed at the most lowly section of our people.

Mr Fisher:

– No.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– .Can the Prime Minister point to any Banking Act which contains such an infamous section? The only reference that has been furnished is to the Western Australian Act.

Mr Roberts:

– Such a section would not be contained in an ordinary Banking Act. It is only necessary in a Savings Bank Act. There is such a section in the Savings Banks Acts of several States.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I am satisfied that if this provision had appeared in a Savings

Bank Bill introduced by our opponents it would have been denounced by the Labour party. As the honorable member who preceded me truly says, this offers a premium to the officers of the Savings Bank to resort to unfair means to rob a person of his money.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– How?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– A bank book might easily be obtained from a depositor.

Mr West:

– The working classes thoroughly understand the importance of the bank book. My wife takes care of mine.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The teller and the ledger-keeper of the bank could enter into collusion.

Mr Fisher:

– If there is going to be so much fuss about the matter we will let the amendment go, though I am satisfied that it will weaken the operation of the Bill.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I am glad to hear the Prime Minister’s statement. I have seen bank tellers and others in connexion with this subject, and they all say that the amendment will do no harm.

Mr Fisher:

– It will make the processes of the bank slower in operation.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

– I doubt whether it is a wise thing to allow the Senate’s amendment to be made. We certainly ought to guard the position in some way, otherwise there will be a danger of collusion taking place with the object of robbing the bank. It will be known that a depositor whose account has been improperly’ drawn upon will be able to recover from1 the bank, and I am afraid the knowledge of that fact will be acted upon. By the elimination of the clause to which, the Senate takes exception the road is left open for that kind of thing to be done. On the other hand, I quite realize that poor people who have money in the Savings Bank ought not to be deprived of the opportunity of getting at their own. Is the Prime Minister satisfied to accept the amendment ?

Mr Fisher:

– I thought that we might improve the position by adding the words, “ if it is proved that the depositor failed: to take reasonable care of his pass-book.”

Mr CHARLTON:

– I am prepared to support a provision of that kind.

Mr Fisher:

– Probably it will be well to let the matter go now, and see how theBill works. We can amend it afterwards if necessary.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I am afraid there will be some danger as far as depositors: are concerned. I know a case in New

South Wales where a pass-book was sent through the post-office to the Savings Bank. It went astray, and money was improperly drawn out. There was endless trouble, and ultimately the bank had to pay the money to the depositor.

Mr Fisher:

– I ask leave to withdraw my motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to -

That the amendment be agreed to.

page 4817

CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL

Bill returned from Senate with requests.

page 4817

COMMONWEALTH INSCRIBED STOCK BILL

Second Reading

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This Bill has been carefully drafted. It has been under consideration by three different Treasurers of the Commonwealth. It is intended to provide the necessary machinery to enable Commonwealth inscribed stock to be issued at any time when it may be thought advisable and necessary. The Bill provides in Part 11. for the creation and issue of stock, and in Part in. for the inscription of stock for registries, and registrars for transfers and transmissions, for the granting of stock certificates, and so forth. Part iv. creates a stock redemption fund. Then there are penal provisions and the usual miscellaneous provisions necessary in a measure of this kind. In addition to providing general machinery for setting up Commonwealth stock, clause 5 involves the principle that I mentioned when we were dealing with the Loan Bill recently. The clause reads -

Stock shall bear interest at a rate to be fixed by the order creating the stock but not exceeding four pounds per centum per annum, and the interest shall be payable half-yearly on days to be fixed by the order creating the stock.

It is also provided that the sinking fund shall not be less than J per cent. Clause 45 reads -

The Treasurer shall on the last day of March and on the last day of September in each year pay out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, which is hereby appropriated for the purpose, into the Trust Fund, under the head of the Stock Redemption Fund, such sum as if fixed by any order directing the sale of any stock, being not less than ten shillings per centum on such stock.

That lays down the principle that whenever a loan is raised by the Commonwealth J per cent, must be set aside every year towards the redemption fund. This provision operates whatever the rate of interest may be. Consequently, in sixty-six years’ time, the principal of any loan to which this provision is applied, will be entirely wiped out. We consider that the provision made in this machinery Bill is ample for all purposes of the kind. We propose to make a slight amendment in clause 12. The clause reads -

All moneys raised by the sale of stock shall be paid into the Commonwealth Public Account and placed to the credit of the Loan Fund.

We propose to omit the words “ paid into the Commonwealth Public Account and.” So that the clause will read -

All moneys raised by the sale of stock shall be placed to the credit of the Loan Fund.

That, I think, is a distinct improvement. The Bill does not raise any controversial, questions. It has been carefully scrutinized by several Commonwealth Treasurers, and by the Attorney-General. In my opinion, it meets the case. It was originally prepared, as the Leader of the Opposition is aware, by Sir George Turner, when he was Treasurer of the Commonwealth. It has since been revised at various times. I think it covers all the necessary ground.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.The Treasurer is perfectly correct in saying that there are few points which appear to call for attention in this Bill. This, I am sure, is a fact that will be welcomed by the House at this hour. But .there are one or two departures for which justification will, be required. The first is in clause 5, where it is provided that the maximum interest payable on stock shall be fixed at 4 per cent. I notice that in Sir George Turner’s proposal, the rate was 3 per cent.The maximum here fixed is 1 per cent, higher than it was then. I am aware that it is a maximum, and that it is open to the Government to fix any lower rate that they think fit in regard to any particular loan. But the question is whether it adds to the stability of our stock, or whether it evinces confidence on our part in the popularity of that stock, if we think it necessary to raise by 25 per cent, the rate of interest proposed by Sir George Turner. Even now 4 per cent, is a high rate. Certainly it is a higher rate relatively than it was ten years ago when the first Commonwealth Treasurer brought forward his 3 per cent, proposal. I think that the chief stocks in the Mother Country have never gone above 3 per cent.

Mr Fisher:

– British Consols are worth £3 4s. at present.

Mr DEAKIN:

– It is not whatthey are worth that is material in this relation, but what the maximum interest is. The ques tion for us is whether this provision is capable of being interpreted as indicating a want of confidence in the character of our securities; whether it does not appear as if we approached somewhat timorously the market on which we shall be putting our stock. Ought we not to be able to appeal in a more authoritative way on the best terms that any of the Dominions can secure ?

Mr Fisher:

– I think that one of the States last week borrowed at 4 per cent.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I dare say, but we are dealing with the affairs of the Commonwealth. It is not so much the limitation of the interest to which I am looking forward. The provision in that respect could be amended at any time if necessity requires. I am thinking of our standard inthe world’s market. It appears to me that our position may be prejudicially affected by an apparent admission on our own part that we foresee the likelihood of our being obliged to offer a higher rate than the best fixed securities of the Mother Country obtain. This is one of the particulars in which the Treasurer departs from the Bill of ten years ago. It is a departure of doubtful wisdom.

Mr Fisher:

– Interest at3½ per cent. is low enough in the present state of the money market.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I am looking to the reputation of the stock.

Mr Fisher:

– If we offered only 2 per cent., we should have to sell at 60.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Too low an interest would defeat our object. The success of a flotation dependson many variable factors. I am not criticising this proposal in the light of a possible future position ; we have to ask ourselves how it will affect us in that future. Unless we are obliged to go above 3 per cent., why should we do so? We should assume that our securities will be considered to be as gilt-edged as any in the market, and that we shall be able to borrow at 3 per cent.

Mr Fisher:

– Consols are to-day returning£3 4s.

Mr DEAKIN:

– It is sometimes more profitable to sell under par at 3 per cent. than over par at 3½ or 4 per cent. Sir

George Turner, speaking on the 10th June, 1902, said -

The Bill provides that not less than 1 per cent, per annum shall be paid into the sinking fund. In the early days of our borrowing, we can well afford to contribute 2 per cent., but the Bill makes the minimum 1 per cent., payable halfyearly on the quarter days on which no interest falls.

Mr Fisher:

– He was dealing with temporary service works, which we pay for out of revenue.

Mr DEAKIN:

– In part. In regard to the sinking fund, as to the interest, I offer the same argument. We can well afford to provide that the payment to the sinking fund shall be 1 per cent., and even to pay 2 per cent. in the beginning. Should necessity force future Parliaments, the Act can be amended, but now at the outset the Treasurer can fix what terms he likes. I am having regard to the impression to be made on the public abroad as well as at home. We have nothing to lose, and not even temporary inconvenience to fear, by reducing the rate of interest to 3 per cent., and increasing the payment to the sinking fund to 1 per cent., if possible, making it 2 per cent. for the first few years. Such an action would be taken into serious account in the great financial market to which we shall have to appeal, where a first impression is very important.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member would deceive no one.

Mr DEAKIN:

– There is no intention to deceive. You would say, “ We consider 3 per cent. a sufficient interest, that being the rate paid by the principal stocks of the Mother Country.” Why should we anticipate our not being able to keep up in the race? It would be the easiest thing in the world to put aside 1 per cent., and while we should not bind ourselves to 2 per cent.., we could easily do that much at first. For the next ten or twenty years we should stand on velvet in the money market. I hope that within a comparatively short time the Treasurer will have to deal with the consolidation of the debts of the States, and what we are doing now must affect that very great undertaking, in which a slight difference in our standing on the market may cost Australia a very large sum of money. The Prime Minister takes too long a view. He is considering emergencies that may arise, but it is not our business to prophesy. Let us take a confident stand. There is nothing, even on the horizon, to throw a shadow of suspicion on our credit, nor have we reason to assume that we shall take any but front rank.

Mr Fisher:

– We could not provide 1 per cent. for a sinking fund in connexion with the consolidation of the State debts. They are now approaching the total of £260,000,000, and 1 per cent. would mean £2,600,000.

Mr DEAKIN:

– That is an independent operation, to be dealt with by legislation. 1 should be glad if it could be considered next session. In these matters both parties have a common interest. The more I consider the matter, the more importance I attach to the terms and conditions on which we float our initiatory loan. What I suggest is not more than we are entitled to expect. Perhaps, after the second reading has been passed, we might have an adjournment of an hour or two to enable honorable members to think the matter over, because the making of a mistake in this direction we should always regret, and could not rectify. I desire that the great financiers and financial critics shall recognise the high standard of Commonwealth finance. It can do us no harm to take this position, and will do us a great deal of good if we firmly establish our credit. No one will thank us for not doing this, and if we fail to do this it may be at our own cost.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I agree with the honorable member for Ballarat that we cannot launch our first loan too carefully, because there is everything in creating a good impression at the beginning. When it was proposed to borrow to pay for the Naval Unit, we decided to strain every point to commence with a slightly better credit than the States, a matter of imperative necessity for the success of the consolidation of the, debts of the States. If we secured an advantage of only one-eighth, the work of conversion would come very easy. In my opinion, the Prime Minister would not do wrong in lowering the rate of interest. I think that 3 per cent. would be too low, but3½ per cent. would be the happy mean.

Mr Fisher:

– The Bill says, “ Not exceeding 4 per cent.,” but I should not attempt to float at 4 per cent. I have no objection fixing3½ per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– If we have to pay a little more at that rate, we shall get it back in the long run. I have not much enthusiasm for sinking funds. Of what use is a big sinking fund to a country that is constantly borrowing? A sinking fund is all right if you are paying off a loan, and not raising another loan during that period. Otherwise all that a sinking fund does, it seems to me, isto help you to raise another loan. There is one reason for a sinking fund which seems to be a valid one. I think that it is a good healthy check on the Treasurer - letting him understand that the loan has to be paid back. It prevents reckless borrowing, I believe. But so far as the economic side of the question goes,. I confess that when we are constantly borrowing I cannot see that it matters very, much whether we have a sinking fund or not. Only from that point of view am? in favour of a sinking fund.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Provision is made in the Bill for the issue of interminable stock, to which I have a very great objection. I believe that it will rather work against us, because it is not a class of security which is looker) upon to-day in financial circles with any favour.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member admits that Consols are interminable.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes.

Mr Fisher:

– Is there any stock which is more readily marketable?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I admit that. But nevertheless to the original investor interminable stock is not a very good form of investment. It is very much better, I think, to have stock redeemable at fixed periods.

Mr Fisher:

– That is provided for also.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It would be much better to delete the provision for the issue of interminable stock.

Mr Fisher:

– No, let us take both powers.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I sincerely hope that when Parliament is called upon from time to time to authorize the raising of loans they will all be made for fixed periods, and not interminable. When Sir George Turner introduced his Loan Appropriation Bill he said on this point -

It is provided that there may be two classes of stock, one of which is interminable. I do not think, however, that there is much likelihood of that class of stock being adopted. Some years ago, when in the State Government, I made inquiries in Great Britain on this point and was advised very strongly that interminable stock would be looked on with grave displeasure in the London, market.

Later Sir George Turner said -

In some of the old loans floated by the Statesstock was made payable at a certain date, and the State had to provide the money on that date ; no matter how adverse the market might be, the State had to borrow. Of later years, however, a wiser policy has been adopted of fixing a date on which the State can be called upon to pay, and an earlier date on which the State has a right to pay on giving notice.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– What notice do you propose to give?

Sir GEORGE TURNER. That will be provided for by regulation; probably six months.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– After thirty years?

Sir GEORGE TURNER. Yes. But I hope to see the loans redeemed during the thirty years’ period. Interest on the stock will cease upon the giving of the notice. The amount raised is to be placed to the credit of the Loan Fund, and will be applicable by virtue of Acts similar to that which I have just introduced.

He goes on to talk about the stock being made personal property.

Mr Roberts:

– We find no difficulty with the interminable stock of South Australia on the money market.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is the only State in the Commonwealth which has interminable stock. Possibly this provision was put in the Bill with the idea in view of the ultimate consolidation of the State debts and the taking over of that stock. But even in South Australia it can be paid off by giving due notice after a certain number of years - after thirty years, I think. In the true acceptation of the term, therefore, it is not interminable stock.

Mr Roberts:

– It is terminable at the pleasure of the State Treasurer after a given period.

Mr Poynton:

– It is interminable so far as the Government is concerned.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Government has a choice. It is not necessary to have this provision in the Bill for the consolidation of the loans with the particular class of stock which is held in South Australia. I think that it will place our loans’ on a better basis not to have any suspicion when we are going on the London market with interminable stock at any time. 1, in common with many honorable members, look forward to the time when there will be only one stock in Australia, and we shall have come to a working understanding with the States, whereby the Commonwealth can control the borrowing functions of the States. Probably that time is not very far ahead. It is to our interest in starting our loan policy to see that everything we do will put our loans on the most favorable basis in the eyes of the financiers of the world, because it is by that means we shall get the best possible terms. The Treasurer has taken power to fix the rate of interest at as high as 4 per cent. Although it is impossible to forecast the state of the money market for many years ahead, I do hope that the credit of Australia will never be so bad that we shall have to offer 4 per cent. to get the amount that might be required for its development. Of late years, the money market has not been tight in the way in which it was a number of years ago. The tendency has been gradually for the money market to ease. There have been, no doubt, times of stringency, as there will be in the years to come. But, taking it all in all, I feel sure that if we are careful at the very start, we shall be able to get our money at less than 4 per cent. I would very much prefer to see the rate of interest fixed at3? per cent.

Mr West:

– The Treasurer is prepared to do that.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I hope that it will be done in Committee. As regards the sinking fund, I think that the annual contribution might be more than? per cent.

Mr Fisher:

– In the case of terminable stock, sixty-six years is a very fair thing.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I notice that under the clause the stock is to bear interest at a rate not exceeding 4 per cent. Suppose that a loan was raised for the purpose of carrying out some work which was not of a very permanent character. It would be possible to make the sinking fund in regard to that loan more stringent than the sinking fund in regard to a loan for carrying out large public buildings or a railway, providing, of course, that the maintenance was fully met in the meantime. Sixty-six years is, in these circumstances, a very fair thing for a sinking fund. I hope that when the Bill gets into Committee one or two of these matters will be attended to.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 -

Stock shall bear interest at a rate to be fixed by the order creating the stock but not exceeding four pounds per centum per annum, and the interest shall be payable half-yearly on days to be fixed by the order creating the stock.

Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That the words “ four pounds “ be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ three pounds ten shillings.”

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

I still feel that we are not taking the wisely cautious step with a view to our entering the London money market. Of course, if the Treasurer has made up his mind on this point, that is the end of this matter. . I only commend the suggestion to him in the interest of establishing Australia’s reputation which has a great deal to do with future propositions relating to the consolidation of the State debts.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I do not want to argue this question. But if we can do better than borrow money at3½ per cent. we will do so. In view of the present state of the money market, if the Commonwealth stock is at par it will be the best stock in Australia by at least¼ per cent. An annual payment of¼ per cent. to a sinking fund will in the lifetime of some young Australians now living, wipe out the whole of the principal. I think, with all due respect to my honorable and learned friend, that3½ per cent. is a fair thing.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.I think that as a practical working and continuous maximum, a good deal is to be said for the Prime Minister’s figure. What I expressed was my doubt as to whether, in view of the fact that the state of the money market is always beyond computation, even a few months ahead, it would not have been wise to make an endeavour to put our best foot forward first on a 3 per cent. basis.

Mr Fisher:

– We could not do that now.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I do not admit that.

Amendment agreed to

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 -

Stock shall be redeemable at par after a date to be fixed in the order creating the stock, or may be made interminable, reserving to the Treasurer the right after a date fixed by the Governor-General in the order creating the stock to redeem the stock at par upon such notice given in such time and manner as is prescribed.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Does the Treasurer intend to take the power to create interminable stock ?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I very much prefer to take the power. I do not take exception to the criticisms or the arguments from the Opposition side, because I am very glad to have them. Two or three States have tried interminable stock. But let us compare the interminable stock of one of the smaller States with the interminable stock of an ever-growing

Commonwealth, which is proposing if it can be done to take over £260,000,000 of State debts. I should personally prefer to buy interminable stock rather than any other because it is always saleable.

Mr Riley:

– But perhaps it could not be sold at par.

Mr FISHER:

– What does it matter if one can get more for one’s money ? What does it matter whether you buy at £76 consols bearing interest at2½ per cent., or i’f you buy them at par bearing interest at the rate of3¼ per cent. ? What we need in Australia i’s a stock in which people can invest their money, and then get out of it if so desired - after the lapse of a few months - a stock that is readily saleable on the market every day of the week. This provision will riot bind us to interminable stock. It is simply permissive, and surely in a matter of this kind we ought to provide the machinery for both purposes.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 9 to n agreed to.

Clause 12 -

All moneys raised by the sale of stock shall be paid into the Commonwealth public account and placed to the credit of the loan fund.

Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to-

That the words “ paid into the Commonwealth public account and “ be left out.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 13 to 44 agreed to.

Clause 45 (Stock redemption fund).

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I think that the provision in this clause that not less than½ per cent. shall be paid into the stock redemption fund is a fair thing. I desire to place on record, however, the fact that I think it would be advisable to pay into the fund a higher rate in respect of stock covering works of short life, but in respect of permanent works, I think that ½ per cent. is a reasonable provision to make.

Mr Deakin:

– Unfortunately the honorable member is in reality putting on record the fact that he is content with the provision of½ per cent.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 46 (Application of stock redemption fund).

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– Has the Treasurer made any computation as to how long it will take to pay off a debt by means of this½ per cent sinking fund.

Mr Fisher:

– It will take sixty-six years.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– So that members of the Labour party are tying a burden of debt around the neck of the Commonwealth for sixty-six years; “ Vote for Jelley and no borrowing!” is what we heard in connexion with a recent election, but what has become of Mr. Jelley’s manifesto seeing that honorable members opposite are proposing to tie an incubus of debt round the neck of the Commonwealth for the next sixty-six years? I wonder what the Trades Hall will have to say to this proposal.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– This is a different kind of debt.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– But it has to be met. There is a certain school of Socialists who do not believe in paying debts in the good old honest way. Is that what the honorable member is referring to ? There is only one honest way of paying one’s debts, and that is by paying 20s. in the£. I hope that Mr. Jelley is resting in peace.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

– I should be glad if the honorable member for Parramatta would not make remarks which, when read in Ilansard, will suggest that the Committee is not watching the interests of the people. I should have liked to follow the Leader of the Opposition in his proposal to increase to 1 per cent, the rate of payment to the redemption fund, but even½ per cent. on all the State debts when they are eventually taken over by the Commonwealth will mean a large annual payment.

Mr Fisher:

– £1,300,000.

Mr WEST:

– Quite so. If this related to the redemption of loans raised by the Commonwealth I should have voted to support a sinking fund payment of 1 per cent., but in the case of the whole of the States debts the payment of½ per cent. will amount to a very large sum per annum.

Mr Deakin:

– I pointed out that we should not cross the river till we come to it. We may take over the State debts next year, and we may not take them over for five years-

Mr WEST:

– But having regard to all the facts, the Treasurer is to be commended for the provision he has made for a redemption fund. At the first blush there was a temptation to adopt the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition, and to provide for a payment of 1 per cent. into the redemption fund so as to enable us to redeem our stock within thirty-three years. We should certainly try to pay off our own debts within thirty-three years, and our inscribed stock would be more valuable if such a provision were made. Inscribed stock is almost a liquid asset, and a business man often finds it very handy to lodge against an overdraft. I hope that our inscribed stock will be readily taken up within Australia, for that will mean that we shall be paying to our own people the interest on our loans. Great Britain in the matter of loans does not feel the pinch as we do, because if the British Government borrow £100,000,000 the money is raised locally, and the interest paid to persons there, whereas when we float a big loan we have to send our money Home.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 47 to 50 agreed to.

Clause 51 (Forfeiture of forged documents and illicit forms).

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

– I omitted to call attention to the fact that under the original Inscribed Stock Bill special precautions were made as to the payments out of the Trust Fund. It was provided also that no payments should be made out of the Trust Fund except by means of cheques signed, not only by the Treasurer of the day, but by the President of the Senate and Mr. Speaker. The Trust Fund by that formality was treated as something in the nature of a national fund.

Mr Fisher:

– That system was borrowed from Queensland, but it is rather clumsy.

Mr DEAKIN:

– It is one of those valuable advertisements that goto show the special character of these accumulations with a view to the ultimate repayment of loans.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 52 to 58 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed through its remaining stages.

page 4822

PUBLIC SERVICE BILL

Second Reading

Mr FISHER:
Prime Min ister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill relates really to the Department of Home Affairs, but I am thoroughly familiar with its provisions, and shall briefly recapitulate them. Honorable members are agreed that there are three distinct features in respect of which the Public Service Act is embarrassing. It alters the date of issue of the annual list of officers from January to August and brings the Public Service year into consonance with the financial year, thus enabling statistical information to be prepared on the same basis as the Estimates. It is more convenient in every way, and will permit of printing being done at a less busy period. Clause 3 seeks to alter the scale of salaries of officers of the 4th and 5th class of the Clerical Division. All these alterations are being submitted upon the advice of the Public Service Commissioner. Under the original scale an officer had to serve eleven years to reach the maximum of £180 per annum. Under the new scale he will reach that maximum after eight years’ service, and may advance by annual increments of £10 to a maximum of £200, if the value qf his work and efficiency justify it. At the present time these salaries are fixed by Statute. For some time past the Public Service Commissioner has recommended the granting of a slight increase to these officers. But I do not think it would be wise for me to pay the increases out of Treasurer’s Advance. Then it is proposed to alter the scale of salaries for 4th class officers by increasing the minimum from £185 to £210, and the maximum from £285 to £300. Clause 3 also provides for increasing the salaries of 1 st class officers to £700 per annum in exceptional cases, on the recommendation of the Public Service Commissioner. Clause 4 contains machinery to give effect to the scale which is set out in the schedule of the Bill. Its new features are that it provides for a report by the chief officer of a Department prior to the payment of an increment to any officer under him instead of providing for that report to be presented annually in March. This will save labour, and the report will be of greater value. The conditions as to three years’ service, and the passing of an examination prior to the payment if the minimum wage, are eliminated, the only condition insisted upon being that of age. Clause 5 permits of the suspension of officers being discretionary. Hitherto a member of the Public Service who was accused of an offence, whether it was of a trifling character or of some magnitude, had to be suspended, and undoubtedly a sensitive man would feel that suspension very much. He would be injured by it both in the community and in the service. It isnow proposed to remedy that defect. Under this Bill if the charge preferred against him be of a trifling character he will not be suspended, but will continue to discharge his ordinary duties until his case has been decided by a board of inquiry. Cases are frequent in which suspension causes considerable inconvenience owing to the loss of service of officers for lengthy periods pending the hearing of their cases by boards of inquiry. The expense incurred in providing relieving officers is also considerable.. Clause 6 eliminates a provision which is contained in section 72 of the principal Act to the effect that an officer shall not be entitled to receive any addition to his paywhile on furlough- That provision was considered unfair, because one officer on furlough might suffer loss of his increment, and thus be prejudicially affected in status during the remainder of his career, while another officer might not suffer if he happened to be at the maximum of his grade. Provision is also made to pay six months’ salary on the retirement of an officer in lieu of six months’ leave, thus obviating the necessity, for acting appointments. At present an> appointment cannot be made until the leave expires. The clause provides for the granting of six months’ salary in one amount instead of its payment by fortnightly instalments. That is a perfectly proper thing., Provision is also made to grant six months’ pay to dependents of officers who, at the time of death, were entitled to furlough. Let us suppose that an officer has continued in the Public Service for twenty years and is entitled to six months’ furlough. Should he die, the Government consider that it would only be fair to pay to his dependents a sum equal to the salary which he would have received during his six months’ furlough, or such portion of it as he had not received. Sub-clause 2 provides that combined service in the permanent Naval and Military Forces and the Public Service may be counted for furlough. Hitherto this has not been possible, and the proposed amendment will rectify this anomaly. If honorable members will turn to the schedule they will see that the rates in the 5th class have been slightly altered to make calculations of salaries simpler and to avoid broken> amounts.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– This Bill wilt effect a reduction in wages.

Mr FISHER:

– Oh, no. It providesfor the payment of increases.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– It .provides for reductions year for year.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Bill creates three more classes, but pulls down the salaries.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Under the Bill an officer has to pass through five subdivisions to attain a salary of £120 per annum, whereas under the principal Act he had to pass through only four subdivisions.

Mr FISHER:

– That is officers of the fifth class.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Each sub-division represents a year’s service.

Mr FISHER:

– Yes.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Then this Bill provides for reductions of salaries. Under the principal Act the salary payable to officers of the fifth class during the first three years of service is £60, £So, and £too respectively, whereas under this Bill the salary payable will be .£60, £72, and £[84. Thus the measure provides for an Irishman’s rise.

Mr FISHER:

– The proposed new rates of salary are shown in the schedule to the Bill, the only alteration being in respect to officers of the fourth and fifth classes. As regards the latter class the scale of salaries agrees with that approved by the Government in connexion with the proposals submitted for the classification of telegraphists. Under the original scale, including long service increments, an officer reached a maximum of ,£180 after eleven years’ service, while under the new provision he will reach that salary after eight years’ service, and may advance by annual increments of £10 to a maximum of £,200 provided the value of the work and the efficiency of the officer justifies. The only alterations in the scale of salaries for the fourth class are made with a view to increasing the minimum rate from £&5* to £2IO> and the maximum from £285 to £300. That is clear enough. Officers at present classified in the fourth class at ,£185 will advance to ,£200, the proposed maximum salary of the fifth class, as a matter of right, while a large proportion of them will be entitled on the value of their work to advance to the proposed minimum salary of the fourth class, £2x0. A proviso has, however, been inserted that no officer shall, because he is classified in a certain subdivision of. the fourth class, be entitled to the salary of a similar subdivision under the new schedule, as in some cases there would be no justification for immediate advancement to the salary of the corresponding subdivision as provided in the Bill.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– That is to say, that up to a certain point there is no justification for distinguishing between officers of the fourth and fifth classes?

Mr Riley:

– Is there any urgency for the passing of this Bill?

Mr FISHER:

– Yes. The Public Service Commissioner has strongly recommended it. It is of a non-contentious character.

Mr Finlayson:

– The Prime Minister will find that he is mistaken.

Mr Riley:

– If it proves of a contentious character, will the Prime Minister withdraw it?

Mr FISHER:

– I would prefer not to do so, because the Public Service Commissioner has made these recommendations. Officers other than those in the clerical division may be paid increases by an act of the Governor-General in Council. But clerical officers cannot be paid them without an alteration of the law. The Commissioner says that they are entitled to some consideration as well as the officers in other grades of the service. These salaries are fixed by Statute, and can only be altered by Statute. As the Public Service Commissioner has recommended them, and as they have been approved by the Government, it is only fair that we should submit them to Parliament in order that the officers in question may be enabled to obtain their increments.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Does the Prime Minister still say that the Bill does not effect a ‘ reduction during the. first years of service?

Mr FISHER:

– Yes.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– It does.

Mr FISHER:

– It provides for a readjustment. I do not think that there is any contentious matter in the Bill at all. None of the points which are dealt with are controversial, the alterations have been approved by the Public Service Commissioner, and do not substantially increase the increments payable, which, are not proportionately higher than those which are given to other branches of the service. The amendment of the principal Act in the case of suspension is a necessary one, and where death occurs while an officer is on furlough, I think, that his dependents ought to be paid the amount which is due to him.

Mr West:

– Will an officer. of the General Division come under the provision as to furlough?

Mr FISHER:

– Yes, I understand that it will apply to all. branches of the Service. If, after twenty years’ service, an officer is entitled to six months’ furlough he will be paid his salary for that period in a lump instead of being paid fortnightly. Should he die before his furlough has expired his dependents will be entitled to the amount which is represented by the unexpired portion of it.

Mr West:

– Look a.t the title of the Bill.

Mr FISHER:

– Whether the Bill. covers the General Division or not, I say that officers iri that division are entitled to the same consideration as is extended to officers of the Clerical Division.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.Finding this Bill a veritable Chinese puzzle, I had some details in* connexion with, it worked out for me. Its effect will be to increase the minimum salary of officers of the Clerical Division, which was £40 a year, to j£6o. During the second year of his service the salary of a clerical officer under this Bill will be £72 as against £60 under the principal Act, and during the third year it will be £84, as against £80 under the principal Act. But in the fourth, year there will be a drop, in that the salary under this Bill will be £102 as against £110 under .the principal Act. In the fifth year the salary will remain unaltered, but in the sixth year there will be a drop to £138 under this Bill, as against ^140 under the principal Act, while in the seventh year the salary will be £156 under the Bill, as against £r6o under the principal Act.

Mr SPEAKER:

-If the honorable member be not particularly desirous of finishing his speech, I would point out that, as the Senate has also sat for a very long time, the work has been extremely heavy upon the Hansard staff, and that we might afford its members a little relief by suspending the sitting till 11 o’clock.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I shall only occupy a. few moments longer.

Mr Thomas:

– As soon as an officer attains twenty-one years of age he will receive under this Bill £120 per annum in lieu of £110. Under the principal Act his salary must be £110, so that the £102 to which the honorable member referred must be set against £96.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I am told that on the strict reading of the Bill his salary during the fourth year of his service will be £102. Under the scale which is set out in this schedule, an officer, after seven years’ service, will be paid a salary of £160 per annum, and during that period will have received a total salary of £760, whereas under the scale provided in the principal Act he would be receiving a salary of £156 per annum, and would have received a total of £732. So that under this measure he will have a slightly smaller salary per annum, and will receive £14 less on the total. But the concession which he will get is that instead of stopping at £160 per annum he will have his salary increased automatically to £180 per annum, and perhaps to £200. So that while there will be reductions under the Bill, there will be two additions which will automatically increase the salaries of officers of the fifth class. The only other point worth making is that a clerical ‘ officer, under the present law, must be under twenty-one years of age, and have served three years in order to get the minimum salary. Under this Bill the condition that he must have served three years will be obliterated.

Mr Thomas:

– I feel sure there is no reduction effected.

Sitting suspended from 2.5 <lo 11 a.m. (Wednesday).

Mr DEAKIN:

– The difficulty of dealing with the Public Service in the just way that I am sure all honorable members desire is once more impressed upon us by this Bill. It deals with the officers in very large classes, providing for those increases and alterations which, in the opinion of the Public Service Commissioner, will more adequately meet the mass obligations due to the Service. The difficulty is that in these matters one has to take the proposals in gross, and recognise that there can be no discrimination. The same provision operates at the same time in every class, on the swiftest and ablest member of the service as well as on the man at the tail of the hunt. We are face to face with the difficulty of striking an average, and doing a fair thing in a general way, while ignoring all special capacities, exceptional industry, and particular qualifications. Under those conditions there must always be genuine grievances. Men who are conscious of the fact, and are warranted in the consciousness, that they are giving better service, find themselves still kept shoulder to shoulder with men who take little or no interest in their work, some of whom have objects elsewhere, and are merely using the Public Service for a time as a means of enabling them to equip themselves for other pursuits. That is the real inherent difficulty surrounding every proposition of this sort, against which there must be perpetual appeal, confronts us once more. Taking, as necessary, an undiscriminating general proposal in regard to our scheme of Public Service remuneration, subject to those limitations, this Bill appears to be a step in advance of the existing conditions. It offers extra advantages, adds to the increments for some years and considerably increases the payment made in the first year. If the measure is criticised it will not be so much for what it includes as for what it omits, opening up the boundless number of questions which arise in dealing with so large a service.

Mr Thomas:

– I find on the point to which the honorable member was previously referring that there is no reduction.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I had my figures checked again, and they produced the same result, but the reductions were small, and were balanced by certain increases. The Minister hands me a statement showing that under the old arrangement an officer received from £40 to £50 in the first subdivision, and will now receive £60; that he received £72 in the next, and will now receive £80 ; that he received £84 in the third, and will now receive £100 ; £102 in the fourth, and will now receive £110; £120 in the fifth, and is now to receive £120; £138 in the sixth, and is now to receive £140. In the next year he obtains £168.

Mr Thomas:

– There is one case where they have to wait a little, but they get to £180 in eight years instead of eleven.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I do not follow the Minister’s figures. According to the schedule, and the figures supplied to me, the amount in the fifth subdivision remains at £120. In the sixth subdivision an officer will receive £138 instead of £140, or a reduction of £2. In the seventh subdivision he will receive £156 instead of £160. In the eighth subdivision he will receive £168 instead of £170. The difference is that at present an officer gets the £168 and the £180 only by special grants so to speak, whereas now he will get. the £168 and £180 respectively as a matter of course.

Mr Thomas:

– He reaches£180 three years earlier.

Mr DEAKIN:

– The reductions are nominal, and there are increases to balance them, including a very distinct increase in the first year. There is also the advantage which the Minister has pointed out, and as this Bill comes with the recommendation of the Public Service Commissioner we need not offer any further criticism.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

This Bill appears to be the complement of clause 15 of the Bill which this House passed last week relating to the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration and the Public Service. That clause excepted the Clerical Eivision from the arbitration proposals.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member is quite wrong.

Mr J H CATTS:

– It is a pity that the clause was not explained. It provided, among other things, that -

Except as provided in this section this Act shall not empower the Court to make any award or order or give any direction which is not ia accord with the laws of the Commonwealth or the regulations made thereunder.

Mr Fisher:

– It has been frequently explained that certain officers came over tothe Commonwealth with constitutional rights.

Mr J H CATTS:

– What laws conferred those rights? The clause refers to the laws of the Commonwealth, and not to constitutional rights.

Mr Fisher:

– They are conferred by a law of the Commonwealth.

Mr J H CATTS:

– We asked at the time whether the clause referred to the Defence Act or the Public Service Act, and no information was given. It is evident that this Bill was contemplated when that clause was framed, because it now makes a specific law with regard to the Clerical Division, taking them out of the hands of the Arbitration Court, except in the extraordinary circumstances which are provided for in the six sub-clauses of clause 15 of the Arbitration Bill. That clause hedges the Clerical Division around with certain provisions that do not apply to the General Division.

Mr Mathews:

– There is nothing to prevent them going to the Arbitration Court for all that.

Mr J H CATTS:

– But the clause in question really prevents the Arbitration Court from making an effective award with regard to the Clerical Division except with the concurrence of Parliament. That is not done in the case of the General Division.

The Bill is very limited in its title. ‘ Its purpose is “to amend the Commonwealth Public Service Act 1902-1909 in relation to the permanent staff list, the classification of the Clerical Division, new appointments to that division, the suspension of officers, and the granting of furlough.” The large number of grievances, particularly in the General Division, cannot be legislated for in this Bill so far as they are outside this order of leave. I should be very glad to move for a classification for the General Division, but the order of leave makes it impossible to do so in this Bill. Consequently it must be understood by those interested outside that we are prevented by the rules of the House from going outside the deliberate order of leave with which the Government have introduced the measure.

It does deal, however, with the suspension of officers, and that opens up the whole question of the treatment of officers of the Professional, Clerical, and General Divisions in regard to punishments. Therefore, as I have been requested for some time past by persons interested in my electorate to move for a more equitable’ means of investigating the grievances of officers who are punished, I should be failing in my duty to them if I did not make some effort in that direction. The Bill proposes to amend section 46 of the Act, which deals with the question of suspension and the methods .of investigating charges. I have circulated amendments comprising other alterations of the same section.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must not anticipate the discussion of amendments in Committee, but he may make a general reference to them.

Mr J H CATTS:

– I am pointing out that section 46 provides for a method of dealing with suspensions, and I am about to suggest another; and surely I have ‘not transgressed so far. The existing Act provides, generally speaking, that an officer may be suspended or lie subject to a fine UP to £10.’ In such cases there is no reference to the Board of Inquiry, but any heavier punishment may form the subject of an appeal.

The present board is one of the most lop-sided creations possible to conceive, constituted, as it is, of two officers of the Department and one representative of the men; and all it can do is to investigate and make a report. The railway men of New South Wales consider themselves badly off with the Board they have, but it represents a piece of progressive legislation compared with the tribunal under our Public Service Act. I desire to have the board altered so that it may consist of one representative of the Department, nominated by the chief officer in the State, one elected representative from each of the divisions, and an independent chairman. Boards so constituted are already in operation in connexion with the railway services of Western Australia and Queensland, and, in a modified form, to which there is considerable objection, in the railway service of New South Wales. I am not asking honorable members to launch” out on some untried experiment, but to adopt a method which has proved satisfactory under the State laws, and which railway servants are agitating for throughout Australia. The amendment I suggest will not involve any serious prolongation of the discussion. There is only one issue. raised, namely, the constitution of the board.’ Methods of Hearing evidence, and so forth, are already provided for. Shortly, I propose to amend section 46, insert a new section 46a, and make consequential amendments in sections 48 and 49, the larter placing the board in the same position in regard to certain subsidiary details as other boards of inquiry which might be constituted under section 47 . These amendments, if adopted, will constitute an act of longdelayed justice to the public servants of the Common wea1th .

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– This Bill has my hearty support. I am glad that the Public Service Commissioner, with the concurrence of the Government, has seen his way clear to submit a more liberal scale of remuneration, particularly for the officers of the fifth or lowest class in the Clerical Division. The Bill is the second, if not the third, instalment of improvements recommended by the Commissioner. It represents a step in the right direction, and I am sure Parliament will always be prepared to favorably consider any recommendations of the kind. I believe it has been the policy of the Commissioner, and it is his natural feeling and disposition to support any alteration of a liberal nature required by the altered conditions of the times. When the first Public Service Act was passed in 1901, officers in the fifth class started at ,£40 a year’, and, in two or three years, advanced to £60, only attaining ;£i6o at the end of a long period. Three years ago the Commissioner recommended the increase of the maximum to £,180, and now we have the minimum raised from £40 to £60, and the maximum fixed at £200. Under the old scheme, as amended, it took a fifth class officer eleven years to rise to £180, whereas under the Bill he starts with £60, and in eight years he advances automatically to that maximum. In addition to the £180 he is entitled, almost automatically, to two annual increments of £10 each.

Mr Fenton:

– Why should these two increments not be automatic?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– It is possible the Commissioner may think that there should be some certificate of efficiency justified by advancing years. At any rate, the Bill means that in ten years an officer may reach £200. These two changes alone indicate the readiness of the Commissioner to recommend ameliorations, and, in fact, substantial increases of salary; and the Bill ought to be accepted as an evidence of the good feeling, disposition, and efficiency of that gentleman in grappling with Public Service problems. In addition, the Bill contains improved regulations for the granting of furlough. Under the original Act the right to furlough was, at best, very doubtful, and depended on doubtful and unascertained conditions. The House may fairly be asked to welcome and pass this Bill without launching on any drastic amendments.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I am glad to hear the explanation of the honorable member for Bendigo, but it appears to me that an officer is often kept hanging in the balance between the ^180 and the £200. The increments largely depend on the reports of inspectors; and I am given to understand that some of our most promising young officers, sometimes for the most flimsy reasons, have their increments withheld. The two increments of £10 each are conditional on work value as determined by the heads of Departments and Public Service Inspectors, but I ob serve that there is no such condition in regard to the better-paid officers, whose increments are given practically without any interference from the Commissioner or Inspectors. In this way they reach maximums of £600, £500, £400, and ^300 in comparatively few years. By the withholding of increments in the way I have indicated, some of our brightest officers are given no incentive to give of their best at a time when they may be of the greatest value to the Service. The fifth class maximum has always been obtainable by annual increments, and it is intended that the fourth class shall revert to the scale paid in Victoria prior to Federation, which, if acceded to, will place the fifth class in the same position as formerly - that is, its members will rise from £60 to £200 per annum by annual increments - a very fair arrangement.

Mr Thomas:

– Whether the officers do their work well or not?

Mr FENTON:

– Barriers are not placed in the way of the granting of increments to the more highly-paid officers, and, in my view, the under dog is entitled to more consideration than the top dog, who is able to look after himself very well. According to the Leader of the Opposition, officers in rising from £60 to .£180 per annum receive, in the aggregate, £28 less than under the old arrangement, but I understand that he has since reduced the sum to £14.

Mr Thomas:

– The figures are wrong. Officers now obtain £180 per annum three years sooner than, they did formerly.

Mr FENTON:

– Salaries are increased from ,£180 to £200 per annum only upon it being certified to by a superior officer that the work being done is of sufficient value to justify the increase. Why are men prevented from getting an increase for flimsy reasons ?

Mr Thomas:

– Is it a flimsy reason in every case?

Mr FENTON:

– In some cases the reason is flimsy. It happens occasionally that when a permanent head has testified to an officer’s efficiency, and recommended the increase of his salary, the Public Service Commissioner has refused to sanction it.

Mr Mathews:

– The departmental head may have favourites.

Mr FENTON:

– So may the Public Service Commissioner. If the permanent heads are fitted to make these recommendations, they should not be consistently ignored by the Public Service Commissioner. He seems to step at times into the domain of policy. It is for the Government and Parliament to say what shall be spent on the Public Service. I shall have more to say on the Bill in Committee.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– An experimental measure such as the Public Service Act must need amending from time to time, to remove the anomalies discovered in its administration. The Government has brought down a Bill providing for three important amendments. This does not do full justice to the Public Service, but at this hour of the session it is impossible to deal at length with the subject. One of the amendments gives legal sanction to certain increments recommended by the Public Service Commissioner, and approved by the Government in connexion with fifth class officers, and in a degree with fourth class officers, which will make it unnecessary for the Treasurer to provide the money from his Advance Account. Another important amendment deals with the subject of furlough, and does justice to the relatives of officers who die while enjoying or entitled to leave of absence, a recommendation of the Postal Commission, and, I take it, of the Public Service Commissioner, too. The Bill also removes a great cause of irritation by providing for suspension for breaches of discipline, to the disorganization of the work of an office, and the inconvenience of the fellows of the officer suspended. In many cases a reprimand without suspension would be sufficient. A suspension is often a cruel blow to an officer, because, although subsequently removed, it leaves him open to the charge that his conduct was open to grave suspicion. Under the new arrangement, officers charged with minor offences will continue at work until the charge has been dealt with. One by one the recommendations of the Postal Commission are finding their way on to the statute-book. I should like an explanation of the fifth sub-section of proposed new section 21, which provides that an officer who has served at least a year in the ninth subdivision of the fifth class may be advanced by yearly increments of £10 to a salary of £200 per annum. The Public Service Commissioner provided for long service increments of after each of two periods of five years following the attainment of the salary of £180, but the provision to which I draw attention makes the increment similar to the other increments, except that the increase is to depend on the efficiency of the officer and the value of his work. In my opinion, the increases in the fifth class should be automatic. It is only when you come to the Professional Division that you can differentiate in accordance with the value of a man’s services and the brain work required for their performance. I fail to see why officers should not rise automatically to £200 as they rise to £180. The increase of salary from £180 to £200 should not be at the whim of the Public Service Commissioner.

Sir John Quick:

– It is not at his whim, but subject to his exercise of a judicial discretion.

Mr WEBSTER:

– There is a certainty of these increments being received by officers until their salaries reach £180 per annum, but the advance from £160 to £180 a year really represents no increase whatever, having regard to the increased cost of living in the Commonwealth within the last nine years. It is just as well that that fact should be borne in mind ; otherwise it might be imagined that we were doing something to placate the Service, which, as the custodians of the public purse, we are not entitled to do. The raising of salaries from £180 to £200 will be a recognition of the superior services required of these men by reason of the intricate machinery of their Departments.

Mr Fenton:

– But why should a barrier be raised in respect of the last two years?

Mr WEBSTER:

– It ought not to exist. The salaries of public servants in the lower divisions of the Public Service of France go on increasing until the maximum is reached. That is the rule in the industrial world, and in the Public Service of other countries; but we seem to be always ready in the case of the Commonwealth service to leave it to some individual to determine who shall and who shall not be advanced to the extent of a couple of £10 increments. Honorable members have been put to a good deal of trouble in dealing with the complaints of men that they have been unjustly treated in the selection of officers for increments, and these complaints arise from our action in leaving the decision of the matter to the Public Service Commissioner. No man called upon to deal with such a matter can hope always to give satisfaction, but when we make statutory provision for the granting of increments upon certain conditions that law must be complied with. All these attempts to do justice to the Service and to secure value for our money are restricted by one of the weaknesses of our legislation, under which, no matter how inefficient a public servant may be, he cannot be removed from the Service unless he is absolutely incapable.

Mr Thomas:

– That is the trouble.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The Postal Commission recommended that power should be given to rid the Service of a malingerer.

Mr Thomas:

– After, the Staff Committee had dealt with his case.

Mr WEBSTER:

– We suggested a Staff Committee in Heu of all the machinery that is now being set up.

Mr Thomas:

– Who would dismiss such a man ?

Mr WEBSTER:

– The Beard of Control.

Mr Thomas:

– -After his case hr.d been inquired into bv a Staff Committee?

Mr WEBSTER:

– Exactly. The Public Service Commissioner has said again and again that it is most difficult to prove incompetence. Although a man may be known to be incapable, unless he is bordering on idiocy, he cannot be removed from the Service. Under our proposal the men would know where they were, and those who had to judge would be qualified to do so. Men who are dissatisfied have hitherto had to run the gantlet of three tribunals, and by the passing of the Arbitration (Public Service) Bill we have just created a fourth. The more we try to patch up an imperfect piece of machinery the greater must be the danger of a. breakdown. The trouble of the present situation is that individual grievances cannot come before the Arbitration Court and cannot be dealt with by any other tribunal. Time will not permit of the discussion of this measure at length, but next session I shall certainly see whether we cannot remedy some of the defects of the Service with which this Bill does not cope. The Government during the recess will have ample opportunity to carefully read the recommendations of the Postal. Commission, and having done so, I think they will have no hesitation in taking steps to remove the sources of difficulty to which I have referred. In Committee I shall move to amend sub-clause 5 of clause 4 by inserting the word “ shall “ in place of the word “ may,” and I shall also move an additional sub-division in respect of the fifth class - to be known as sub-division 10 - under which officers will rise from a salary of £[180 to £200 per annum.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I am pleased that an attempt has been made by the Government to do justice to the Clerical Division of the Public Service, but I do not altogether agree with the honorable member for Cook-

Mr Fisher:

– That matter has been cleared up.

Mr MATHEWS:

– Very well. ‘I recognise that a Court is able to take into consideration and determine what should be the wages and conditions of employment of certain sections of the Service, but the trouble is that it cannot deal with individual grievances. I therefore rather favour the suggestion made by the honorable member for Cook, and which, indeed, I have had in mind for some time. There ought to be a Staff Committee to deal with the complaints of men who consider that their claims for promotion have been overlooked, or that the work which they are doing should be in a. higher grade. The Staff Committee could also deal with complaints of remissness.

Mr Cann:

– ft would be an appeal board.

Mr MATHEWS:

– It would be a sort of appeal board within the division concerned. No matter what machinery we devise in this connexion we are bound to have some dissatisfaction in the Service, but, as a rule, public servants are fairlygood judges of the competency of any one of their number, and know very well whether or not a man has a genuine grievance. I hope that Ave shall have inserted in the Bill some such provision as that to which I have referred, and which offers the only means of which I know to put a stop to the unrest in the Public Service. I heartily approve of the provision that is moved for an appeal to the Arbitration Court. The honorable member for Maribyrnong, with, whom I often discuss these matters, thinks that the head of a Department might recommend a man for a certain position only to have him stood down by the Public Service Commissioner. So far as that is concerned, I think it is just as well that we have a Public Service Commissioner, because, irrespective of a man’s ability, cases of ‘favoritism on the part of the head of a Department sometimes occur. The head of a Department, without desiring to show any favoritism, may sometimes fail to deal fairly with a man because there is something about him that he does not like.

Mr Webster:

– Does the honorable member say that the Public Service Commissioner himself is altogether clear of anything of that sort?

Mr MATHEWS:

– I do not say anything of the kind, but I do know that the Public Service Commissioner and his Inspectors are not so liable to display favoritism as are the men who are brought immediately into touch with the officers under them. It is just as well that the heads of the Departments have not full power under the present system ; if they had, I am afraid that a good deal of “ smoodging “ would go on.

Mr Finlayson:

– They are more likely to know the abilities of men under them than is the Commissioner.

Mr MATHEWS:

– If heads of Departments and those under them were like cogwheels, fitting each other exactly, . that would be all very well, but heads of Departments, after all, are only human, and are liable to make mistakes. I might be asked what would be the use of having a Public. Service Commissioner if that was done. He would have his uses just as he has now. Such a committee or board would simply be of assistance to the Inspector.

Mr Webster:

– Dees the honorable member suggest that every branch should have an appeal board?

Mr MATHEWS:

– Every division, or something of that sort. I object to the system by which men are appointed to vacant positions before anything is known of it. During my five years in this House I have known six distinct cases where irretrievable wrong has been done to men who have been passed over in favour of juniors. Whoever is recommended by the Commissioner or the head of a Department for a vacancy should not be permanently appointed until any man who feels aggrieved has had the opportunity to appeal to the staff committee, or board, to prove his fitness for the position. I would make the amount which had to be lodged with an appeal £20, or even £50, to prevent frivolous appeals, but some method must be provided by which a man can show that an injustice has been done to him.

Mr Thomas:

– Then the honorable member would not make an appointment until every appeal had been heard?

Mr MATHEWS:

– I would not make the appointment permanent. It would be better to lose a little time” than perpetuate the ill-feeling that exists under the present system. Every system has its disabilities, but no man ought to be robbed of a position that he is fitted to fill. The man who finds an officer junior to him in age, service, and ability placed above him cannot do his work with credit to himself or justice to his Department. I should be glad it the Treasurer could make the clause referring to the six months’ furlough retrospective, at any rate to the beginning of the current financial year. It seems peculiar that just at this particular stage there should be a number of officers going out. There is something wrong in regard to the position of fourth class clerks. A number of them complain that while the minimum is £210, they are receiving only £200.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– As one who has taken some interest in the clerical branch of the service, I should like an opportunity of expressing my views, although the lateness of the session prevents the subject receiving the attention that it deserves. The Bill removes some* glaring inequalities in the clerical branch, but unfortunately it does not cover the whole Service. After all, it is only a piecemeal amendment of the Act, which requires much wider and more drastic treatment. There are one or two things not provided for, which I should like the Government to consider, with a view to the introduction of amendments in Committee. There are in New South Wales at least forty officers who were taken over from the State service, and although classified in the General Division, were doing clerical work. They have been doing clerical work ever since, and some of them are experts.

Mr Fisher:

– We have other urgent business to consider: This Bill was brought down only on condition that it should go through, and in the circumstances the honorable member had better ask for leave to continue his speech.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– If the Prime Minister thinks I am blocking the Bill I will allow it to go into Committee, because as far as it goes I want to see it passed.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– lam grateful to honorable members for the way in which they have received the Bill. The Government have npt had time to deal with the whole of the questions raised, many of which are very important. If we had had time, no one would have welcomed a full discussionmore than the Government would have done, if only in order that we might receive enlightenment.

Mr West:

– Is it the intention of the Government to revise the Act next year, and deal with the General Division?

Mr FISHER:

– The whole question will be raised next session.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clauses1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 - (5.) Where an officer has served at least one year in the ninth subdivision of the fifth class, he may be advanced by yearly increments of ten pounds to salary of two hundred pounds per annum, provided that in the opinion of the Commissioner such increases are justified by the efficiency of the officer andthe value of the work performed.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- In order to remove the anomalies we have had in the past, and enable officers of the fifth class to go automatically up to their maximum, instead of depending on the recommendation of the Public Service Commissioner or any other officer, I move -

That the word “ may “ be left out with a view to insert the word “ shall.”

If honorable members wish to get rid of the trouble of being worried by men who have been differentially treated in regard to increments, they will make the increments automatic, as I propose. Instead of stopping at £180, as in the schedule, the fifth class officer will go automatically up to £200.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Are you going to stop there?

Mr WEBSTER:

– Yes.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– The honorable member cannot stop there and do justice. Before a man can get out of the fifth class into the fourth, after reaching the maximum of the fifth class, he must pass a qualifying examination. There is no guarantee that when he has done it another man who has come up to the maximum of the fifth class will not be receiving the same salary as the man in the fourth. That is not just.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- The minimum in the fourth class is £210, and the maximum in the fifth class is £200. If a man in the fifth class passes an examination, entitling him to enter the fourth class, he ought, at least, to receive the minimum of £210.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– The Government are unable to accept any amendments for reasons that will be obvious to honorable members. We know that the Bill does not cover all the ground, but we desire it to be an instalment of very useful legislation.

Question - That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause - put.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 20

NOES: 18

Majority … … 2

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– I move -

That the word “ increments “ be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ increment,” and that the word “ ten,” line 4, be left out with . 1 view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ twenty.”

This amendment is not so effective as would have been the proposal the Committee have just negatived, but it will, at least, remedy some of the injustice underlying the clause. The object is to bring the salary up to £200 by one yearly increment of £20, instead of two of £10 each. If the increase has to be left to the Public Service Commissioner, it might as well be placed on the same basis as the other increments. I realize the difficulty there is when increments are left to the discretion of some official ; but there can be no danger in the amendment, because the increase in question must, in the opinion of the Commissioner, be justified by the efficiency of the officer and the value of the work performed. When this increment is due, the officer is just in the zenith of his powers, physical and mental, with the full responsibilities of life, domestic and otherwise, on his shoulders, and, therefore, most likely to be giving his very best to the service of the Commonwealth.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I appeal to my honorable friend to allow the Bill to go through. It does not raise the main question at all. I have explained the circumstances under which it is being submitted.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I shall not support the amendment. I was surprised when I heard of the introduction of the Bill, and the honorable member for Cook was at first of the opinion that it might prevent men from going to the Arbitration Court. Why should we deal with one class of the Publice Service differently from others? Are they to secure an advantage through a catch vote in this Committee? We have provided the right to appeal to the Arbitration Court, and, in my opinion, the men of the fifth class, as well as all other men in the Service, should have to go to that Court.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- In my opinion, we made a great mistake in sending our officers to the- Arbitration Court. Parliament should shoulder the responsibility pf fixing scales of wages and increments. Boys have to be possessed of a certain amount of education to pass the Public Service entrance examination, and must be kept at school until they are sixteen or seventeen. After they have entered the Service, it is a good many years before they attain a salary of £180 a year. I cannot see why, when, a man has been years in the Service, he should be forced to go to the Arbitration Court for the determination of his salary. Parliament should fix fair rates, and should see that those entitled to them receive them.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

– - I agree with what has been said by the honorable member for Hunter regarding the Arbitration Public Service Bill, and ask the Prime Minister to consider whether it would not be expedient to provide that there shall be no appeal until a certain time has elapsed after the fixing of salaries and conditions by Parliament. It would be very strange if a month after Parliament had fixed certain salaries its work could be reviewed by the Arbitration Court.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I do not know what the Arbitration Court has to do with this provision. The question is, whether, after eight years of service, an officer shall be entitled to the increase of his salary from £180 to £200 per annum. I think that the provision spoils a very good Bill, and will cause a great deal of unrest in the Service - Mr. J. H. CATTS (Cook) [12.37].- In my opinion, the rates to be paid in ti * General as well as in the Clerical Division should be fixed by Statute, and Parliament should be responsible for them, without prejudice to the right of appeal to the Arbitration Court. In some cases the hearing of evidence will show that our public servants are not as hardly treated as they think that they are. Unfortunately, the appeal to the Arbitration Court is so limited and qualified as to be very much impaired in regard to its usefulness. I was under the impression that that remark applied only so far as the appeal from the Clerical Division is concerned, but from conversation with the secretary to the AttorneyGeneral’s Department, I understand that it applies also, in a slightly modified degree, to any award of the Arbitration Court iri regard to the General Division. I regret that the House had riot more time to consider the matter. My wish now is to make the rates of pay more liberal than those fixed by the Public Service Commissioner) and if I had an opportunity I would do something for the General Division. The order of leave, however, confines us to legislating, for the Clerical Division in regard to classification; I hope that an early opportunity will be given for dealing with the General Division.

Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke

.- Is it the intention of the Prime Minister to give honorable members next session an opportunity to express an opinion on the Public Service Act?

Mr Fisher:

– Yes. I made that statement yesterday.

Mr ANSTEY:

– If that is the promise of the Government, I am prepared to support the’ proposal. Otherwise honorable members would have’ the right to push their opinions as far as they wished.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Min.ister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

. < - I do” riot wish to press the Bill on honorable members. It was considered an urgent measure, but if honorable members think it unwise to do what is proposed, it is for them to sa.y so.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- My last vote was not given on the merits of the question, but in support of the endeavour of the Leader of the House to close a discussion which must be unprofitable, unless the sitting is continued for a very long period.

Mr Fisher:

– I do not propose to go on with the Bill, if the general question is to be raised.

Mr DEAKIN:

– We were informed that the Government did not intend to deal with the amendments on their merits, because there was not an opportunity for that.

Mr Webster:

– How, then, are we dealing with them.

Mr DEAKIN:

– We have to determine whether we shall pass the Bill as it stands, or go without it. Several days could reasonably be occupied in discussing all the amendments which could be moved.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- The position of the Leader of the Opposition is remarkable. He suggests that we must carry the measure as it stands, or vote against it. In my opinion it is best to put things right when we have the opportunity. I have no wish to prolong discussion. It is for the Committee to deal with- my amendment.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The vote I gave just now was on the merits of the question, and I decline to give any other. In the interests of both parties, it would be best not to proceed with the Bill now. . Honorable members are entitled to propose amendments.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– If this desirable piece of legislation is to be passed, honorable members must deny themselves.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not think that the measure is one in regard to which we should deny ourselves the right ‘of criticism. We have not only to safeguard the interests of the Public Service, but also to provide for its discipline, and must consider each proposal on its merits.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I would remind the honorable member for Gwydir that last night he frequently declared that he would like to disuss certain matters at length, but would refrain from doing so to enable the Estimates to be disposed of quickly. That is our position in regard to the Bill now. But if any question should be thoroughly discussed, it is one relating to rates of pay.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The consideration of a Bill changing the relation of the Government to its Service is altogether different from the consideration of Estimates.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think so. If ever there was a subject which should be discussed, it is this. I do not think that the Government- have acted wisely in bringing down a piecemeal proposal of this kind. It seemed to me that the Bill offered a modicum of reform which I felt I might vote for, but if honorable members opposite are going to open it out and deal with all the ramifications of the Service, we shall have to vote them, down.

Mr Fisher:

– I think that the Bill is too good to be withdrawn.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– We have sat here all night, assisting to push on with business, and I refrained, and induced others to refrain, from calling for a quorum so that many honorable members opposite who are now fighting so vigorously this morning might have a sound sleep. They now expect us to vote blindfolded for a Bill of this kind to suit their own purpose. That is not fair. If we are to go into all these details we- shall have to discuss the matter thoroughly and let all other arrangements go.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– This was considered to be a good Bill as far as it went, and I think that it will certainly prove helpful. I therefore appeal to honorable members not to attempt to determine in connexion with it questions that will be discussed in a later measure; otherwise it will not be possible to place on the statute-book this session a rather good measure that must afford considerable relief.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- The approach of Christmas seems to be having a wonderful effect on the Committee. I am anxious, if possible, to make the Bill do even-handed justice where, as it stands, it will not, in my opinion, have that effect, having regard to the practice adopted in connexion with the Public Services of other countries and in our own State experience. But, because I simply want to alter a word in a clause, I am told that I am imperilling .the passing of the Bill.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The honorable member would create more anomalies.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The honorable member need not gibe at me.

Mr Anstey:

– The honorable member has been told that he cannot get more than this Bill as it stands during the present session.

Mr Fisher:

– I said that I could not accept amendments.

Mr WEBSTER:

-We are to have nothing more than the Bill as it stands ?

Mr Fisher:

– Yes, that is the arrangement.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Does the Prime Minister mean to tell me that I have to agree to every word in the Bill as it stands ?

Mr Chanter:

– The Prime Minister says that he will introduce another Public Service Bill next session.

Mr WEBSTER:

– To remedy something that has already taken deep root, and which cannot then be wholly eradicated.

Question - That the word “ increments “ proposed to be left out stand part of the clause - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 31

NOES: 9

Majority … 22

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I understand that the honorable member for Gwydir does not wish to proceed with the further amendments which he indicated his intention of moving.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 (Furlough).

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– I should like to suggest the insertion of cer tain words that would make the clause clearer than it is. It now provides for leave of absence on full pay -

When an officer has continued in the Public Service at least twenty years……

I suggest the insertion of the words “ with a clean record” after the word “continued.”

Clause agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2 p.m. (Wednesday).

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- Section 46 of the original Act deals with offences. In sub-section 3 it is provided that if the officer is of opinion that the offence might be met by a fine not exceeding £10 he may prevent the matter going to a board of inquiry. I want to amend that sub-section by leaving out the words “ that an investigation thereof should be made by a board of inquiry.” This would take away from the chief officer the right of denying an investigation in such cases. I also wish to leave out sub-section 4 of section 46 which gives the chief officer the right to refer a charge to a board of inquiry, and describes the constitution of the board. I desire our public servants to have a statutory right to have an impartial investigation in regard to charges and punishments. I shall afterwards move a new clause to constitute the appeal board in the way I have previously described. I wish to leave out of sub-section 5 of section 46 the words “ if any charges are admitted or are found by the board of inquiry to be true “ and insert in their stead “ if the chief officer considers the alleged offence to be of so serious a nature that the offending officer should be more severely dealt with.” I would also leave out subsection 6 of section 46, and insert in lieu thereof the words “ any officer punished in accordance with the provisions of this section may appeal in the manner hereinafter provided.” These alterations will bring the whole section into line, enabling appeals to be submittedto the appeal board which I propose shall be constituted according to the next clause. I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : - “5a. Section forty-six of the principal Act is amended -

by omitting all the words in line 5 of sub-section (3.) ;

by omitting sub-section (4.) ;

by omitting the following words in subsection (5.) : - If any such charges are admitted or are found by the Board of Inquiry to be proved,’ and inserting ‘ If the Chief Officer considers the alleged offence to be of so serious a nature, that the offending officer should be more severely dealt with ‘ ;

by omitting sub-section (6.) and inserting (6.) Any officer punished in accordance with the provisions of this section may appeal in the manner hereinafter provided.’ “

Amendment negatived.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : - “ 5b. The principal Act is amended by adding after section forty-six the following new section 46A : - (1.) Any officer punished in accordance with the preceding section of this Act, may within seven days of the receipt of the notification thereof, appeal to a Board in each State which shall consist of :

a police or resident magistrate, to be appointed by the Governor-General, and to be the Chairman of the Board ;

one person to be appointed by the Chief Officer ;

one person lo be elected under the regulations by the officers of the Professional Division, the Clerical Division, and the General Division, but only the person elected by the Division in which the appellant is employed shall act on the Board as the elective member on the hearing of the appeal. (2.) For the purpose of the ordinary election of the elective member of the Board a ballot shall be taken on or before the first Monday in March, One thousand nine hundred and twelve, and on the first Monday in every third year thereafter. (3.) If any member of the Board dies, or by notice in writing, addressedto the Minister, resigns his office, or, being an elective member of the Board, ceases to be an employee of the Department, his seat shall become vacant, and a successor shall be appointed or elected as the case may require, who shall hold office for the residue of the period during which his predecessor would have held the same if he had remained a member of the Board. (4.) Notice of every appointment or election of a member of the Board shall be published in the Commonwealth Gazette. (5.) Every such appeal shall be addressed to the Chief Officer who shall cause arrangements to be made for any necessary meetings of the Board, and every such appeal shall be heard within thirty days from the date of notice being so lodged.

This is a reform for which the Public Service has been hungering. Honorable members need have no apprehension about it. It is practically what exists in the Railway Departments of Queensland and Western Australia, where it has worked equitably. It obtains also in a more modified form in the Railway Departments of the other States, and we may very properly include it for the benefit of our own public servants, because the existing provision is unsatisfactory, lop-sided and obsolete, and makes for injustice to the men.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– Excellent as this or other proposals may be, they are barred by my previous statement that we propose to deal with the Public Service Act in a general way next session. The AttorneyGeneral has also promised to meet the association of which the honorable member speaks before the amending Bill is drafted.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- This principle should be included in this or some other measure. I do not think the public servants should be expected to go to the Arbitration Court, which can deal only with hours and wages. The hours have been satisfactorily fixed by Parliament, and if we fix their wages on a proper scale, that ought also to be satisfactory. The public servants ought to be able to appeal from any decision of the Commissioner to this board, which would obviate the expense of going to the Court. It would be just as well for the honorable member to hold the clause over until next session in view of the promise of the Government, so long as it is understood that we shall have an opportunity to bring it forward then.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– So far as I have been able to ascertain, this proposal would commend itself to the majority of the public servants, their general feeling being against going to the Arbitration Court, and in favour of a board of appeal. Their main complaint against the present Board is that it is not fairly constituted, and its impartiality is not altogether above suspicion.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What is the present Board ?

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The public servants practically have to appeal to a tribunal to reverse its own decision.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will any board satisfy them that does not give them all they want?

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They want an impartial tribunal, and their demand is a fair one.

Amendment negatived.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : - “ 4a. Section twenty-three of the principal

Act is amended by adding at the end of subsection (4.) : -

Provided also that officers in the General Division who were in the State Service prior to 1901, and who have since 1904 been performing duties certified by the Chief Officer of the Department in which such officers are employed as being of professional or clerical nature, shall be classified in the Professional or Clerical Divisions.’ “

This provides that those officers who were taken over by the Federation, and who, although in the General Division, were doing clerical work, and have been doing it since, shall get into the clerical positions which they are now filling without undergoing the examinations required. If the Minister accepts the clause he will be remedying an injustice that has been going on for some time.

Mr Fisher:

– I am inclined to think the amendment is outside the scope of the Bill.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The amendment deals with the General Division, but the Bill deals with the Clerical Division. The amendment is therefore outside the order of leave, and I rule that it not in order.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : - “5a. Section forty-six of the principal Act is amended by adding at the end of sub-section (3 ):-

Provided the officer dealt with as aforesaid may appeal against the finding of such Chief Officer in respect of reprimand or caution or fine to a Board, as provided in section fifty, providing further that the Board hearing such appeal may if of opinion that the appeal is frivolous or vexatious recommend that the appellant officer be mulct in any sum not exceeding Forty shillings.’ “

This is for the purpose of securing the right of appeal to all public servants. At present a large number of cases can be dealt with by the Deputy Postmasters-General, from whom there is no appeal to the Public Service Commissioner, and complaints of injustice are made. Fines are inflicted, and when increments are due they are disallowed because of the fines ; and some very hard cases have come under my notice. The original intention of the Act was, I believe, that every public servant should have the right of appeal ; but the Crown Law authorities have so interpreted the Act as to divide these punishments into two sections ; one involving fines up to £10, in regard to which there is no appeal, and other more severe punishments, in regard to which there is an appeal. For the minor offences, as I say, fines are inflicted, and the men in consequence subsequently lose their right to increment and promotion. If the Government cannot see their way to accept the amendment I trust it will be taken into consideration when a larger and more comprehensive measure is before us.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I ask the honorable member not to press his amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Standing Orders suspended.

Bill read a third time.

page 4837

AUSTRALIAN NOTES BILL

Second Reading

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a simple amendment of the Australian Notes Act ; but, as it involves a principle, I think I ought to offer some explanation. The public are, I believe, under a grave misapprehension regarding the purport and intention of this measure. Nearly all the controversy in the press has been on the lines that it is proposed, under the present Bill, to hold only 25 per cent. in gold against the note issue. That is a correct statement in one sense, but it leaves a wrong impression on the mind of the reader. What is provided is that not less than 25 per cent. shall be held at all times by the Treasurer, and, therefore, his working margin must be between 25 per cent. and some larger percentage. The wording is such that 25 per cent. must always be held, and cannot be drawn from.

Mr Sampson:

– What if there is a demand that brings the reserve below 25 per cent. ?

Mr FISHER:

– If so, all the worse for the Treasurer on whom the responsibility is cast ; he will suffer, and not the credit of the Commonwealth.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Except that the notes to that extent will become inconvertible.

Mr FISHER:

– Honorable members should know, from what I have stated from time to time, that I believe that 25 per cent. is an absolutely safe margin for an Australian note issue. In Queensland the reserve has been nearly double that which’ actual practice has required ; but I am not here to say that it ought to be brought below 25 per cent. I have never been favorable to an amount being fixed as in the original Act - that gold should be held for notes above £[7,000,000. The desire of the Associated Banks was that gold should be’ held for each note above £7,000,000 if there were a larger issue than to that amount. At the present time the issue is practically £[10,000,000, and it has been stated by financial men and writers that there is an over-issue.

Mr Fairbairn:

– How much gold is there at present?

Mr FISHER:

– For all practical purposes, we have half in gold. It has been stated by financial men that the banks are holding more notes than they require. I desire to say most respectfully to all concerned that it is not the desire of this Government or of this Parliament that any one should hold more notes than are required for legitimate circulation purposes; and the only way to discover what is necessary is to place the matter on a safe basis. Without arguing the question at length, I desire to say that, in my opinion, the margin for a currency issue of any kind, paper or otherwise, in Australia, is not to be compared with the margin necessary in Canada, which is so often quoted. Canada has a long winter and a long summer. Nearly half the wealth of the Dominion is produced in a few months at harvest time, and during that period there is, of course, an inflated currency as compared with the average. In Australia that is not so. Happily, production in all branches of industry is more equal throughout the year; and’ I cannot conceive of any jarring circumstance arising. The principle I should like honorable members to consider is this : The margin of 25 per cent., which must not be encroached on; means that the minimum working amount is one-third, or 33J per cent. I am prepared to do two things in this Bill, one of which is to provide that this amendment shall not come into operation until 1st July of next year. A number.. of people are apprehensive as to what will take place during the early months of the new year - February, March, and April - when the money may be wanted more. I am prepared to go further as Treasurer.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The right honorable member will do anything so long as he gets the money !

Mr FISHER:

– None of the money that is being realized by this proposal is required for Commonwealth purposes.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– What is the Treasurer going to do with it?

Mr FISHER:

– Invest it.

Mr Kelly:

– In the Commonwealth Bank, for instance?

Mr FISHER:

– This is either a serious business or it is not.

Mr Kelly:

– I am asking a serious question.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– It is very serious - the Treasurer is “ on the make “ !

Mr FISHER:

– I repeat that this is either a serious business or it is not. The law provides at present that the money may be invested in a bank, and as the Commonwealth institution will be a bank, it may be invested in the Commonwealth Bank, as some of it is now invested in other banks.

Mr Kelly:

– That is an answer to my question.

Mr FISHER:

– I venture to say that the honorable member does not desire to cast the slightest slur on the Commonwealth Bank, or say that it is an institution without sufficient credit to warrant any one in my position investing money in it, even if it be trust money.

Mr Fairbairn:

– How much of the £[5,000,000 has been lent to each State?

Mr FISHER:

– I have again and again given this return, and had it printed in Hansard; but I may repeat that the following are the figures: - New South Wales funded stock, £1,000,000; Victorian Government debentures, .£686, 000 ; Western Australian stock, £[650,000 ; and Tasmanian inscribed stock, £[200,000. Then there are fixed deposits with the State Government of New South Wales, £1,000,000; sundry banks in Sydney, £[381,500; sundry banks in Melbourne, £400,000 ; sundry banks in Brisbane, £[175,000; and sundry banks in Perth, £[150,000 ; a total of £[4,642,500. There are also other investments shown in the return, consisting of Victorian Government debentures, £294,000 ; Tasmanian inscribed stock, £[300,000’; and fixed deposit in the National Bank of Tasmania Limited, Launceston, £[25,000. These latter investments amount to £619,000, making a grand total of £[5, 261,500. I desire to make a further statement to honorable members. I shall undertake, as trustee on behalf of the Government, that until we have had twelve months’ more experience, the amount held in reserve in the aggregate shall not be less than 40 per cent. I feel so confident that it is a wrong principle to have a fixed amount above which we must hold gold against the paper issue, that I think it better at the initiation to lay down a sound basis. In Queensland there has been a Government note-issue for about eighteen years, representing £1 7si 4d. per head in the hands of the public. In Victoria it was only 13s. rod. per head, which shows the difference between the practice of a people trained to the use of paper currency and that of one not so trained. It is not to be understood, and I hope that honorable members will not encourage the view, that the measure has been brought in to enable the Commonwealth to get more money for public purposes. Its object is to lay down a sound principle. Should further experience show that a larger margin is necessary, no one will be more willing than I shall be to invite Parliament to create the necessary security. We should not, however, continue a mere tentative system. No person will be compelled to hold a Commonwealth note in place of gold ; people will have to come to us voluntarily for these notes, and will be able to get the gold when they please. The business of the Government is to obtain the largest investment of the gold, representing the notes taken out, in sound securities, so that the interest may accrue to the trust fund in the first place, and, ultimately, be applied to Commonwealth purposes. The late Mr. G. B. Edwards gave the warmest support to this proposition, and was prepared to go further than I am prepared to go. He rendered admirable aid in forming this trust fund, so that the interest on the investments might revert to it. Journals that claim to have financial knowledge have stated that we expend the annual interest from these investments. But I gave instructions from the first that when the interest came in, it was to be re-invested. Some of it has been re-invested, and consequently compound interest is accumulating, and in four or five years’ time, in addition to the 25 per cent, gold reserve, there will be £1,000,000 to the credit of the fund, which will be an additional security for the notes. I hope, therefore, that in the interests of the country and of truth, the statements which have been published will not be repeated. I shall so alter this proposal that it will not come into operation until the 1st July of next year, and in the meantime shall hold 40 per cent, in gold of the actual note issue. If that does not allay the anxiety of the timid and apprehensive, I do not know that anything will.

Mr Fairbairn:

– To keep the gold would be another way of doing it.

Mr FISHER:

– The keeping of the gold would be of no benefit to those who held the notes, nor to the Government, nor to the people of Australia. The provision of an ample gold reserve for all requirements is the most sensible arrangement. Queensland is a considerable State, and its people are not unintelligent. It has carried on successfully for many years with the reserve to which I have referred, and the Commonwealth might well experiment with a larger reserve until it gets more experience. No protest has come from any of the banks or public bodies of that State, which shows that they believe that no danger exists, and that the Commonwealth will benefit by what is proposed.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- The experience of Queensland is an open book to the financial institutions of Australia, and the fact that Queensland institutions have not seen fit to protest against this proposal, while perhaps worthy of casual notice, cannot be instanced to depreciate the general experience of Australia. The proposal goes to the root of the financial position, not merely of Queensland, but o£ the whole Commonwealth. The Prime Minister is entitled to make what he can of the fact that there has been no sort of failure in Queensland under this system, but any financial stress of that State is but a fraction of that of the Commonwealth, whose interests we are considering. The verbal promise of the Prime Minister to keep for the next twelve months a reserve in gold of 40 per cent, is, so far as the period goes, fairly satisfactory.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It renders the Bill unnecessary.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Perhaps, for the time for which it holds good. I suggest that the period during which a gold reserve of 40 per cent, shall be held to meet all emergencies be extended to two or three years. If that is agreed to, the whole matter may be disposed of in a few minutes.

Mr Fisher:

– The holding of 40 per cent, in the manner suggested by the honorable member will not work at all.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Will the honorable member extend his promise to hold 40 per cent, until the commencement of the next Parliament ?

Mr Fisher:

– I am willing to agree to that; to hold 40 per cent. until we have been before the electors.

Mr DEAKIN:

– The Bill will be amended to provide that ?

Mr Fisher:

– I do not think that we can do that.

Mr DEAKIN:

– No one doubts the iPrime Minister’s word, but it is necessary to put his promise on record on the statutebook for the information of the people of the Commonwealth, and of our critics overseas.

Mr Fisher:

– We could not provide by Statute for a 40 per cent. reserve, because there might not be a working margin. I have promised to retain 40 per cent. against any sudden demand.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I understood that 40 per cent. of the whole issue was to be retained.

Mr Fisher:

– Yes, but there must be 15 per cent. as a working margin. We shall replenish the reserve, if necessary, from time to time.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I should like to see that provided in the Bill, though there is a good deal in the Prime Minister’s objection, and I shall not press my request.

My feeling in regard to the original measure was largely due to the statements of the Prime Minister when introducing it. He then pointed out that while, to use his own words, a reserve of 25 per cent. was “not in any sense absolutely necessary,” yet, to make things doubly secure, he was willing to increase that margin. He went on to say that therefore he - deemed it advisable to limit the issue of Australian notes, or rather to increase the protection to the note holder by compelling the Treasurer to hold gold against all issues in excess of £7,000,000.

That has been, and is now, the position. He continued -

That precaution, in my opinion, makes this scheme absolutely safe.

We agree with that, but the clear implication is that to depart from it would make the scheme unsafe or not “ absolutely safe,” and in national ‘finance absolute safety is essential very much more than in individual affairs. Then take the next sentence -

One reason which has influenced the Government to adopt that precaution is that there may at times be an inflation of the issue, though, in my opinion, that will not take place while the note issue is under£7,000,000.

There, again, the implication is that, with an issue above £7,000,000, there would be danger of an inflation which we must be prepared to meet.

If it should happen that notes are issued ondemand to the extent of a million or two in excess of ordinary requirements, then, of course, this precautionary measure would take effect.

All above £7,000,000 was to be represented by gold retained in the Treasury.

Mr Fisher:

– What is the practice now ?

Mr DEAKIN:

– The Prime Minister, by his own confession, is forsaking the absolutely safe course for one wnich he thinksnearly safe ; he passes from a state of things in which there was no danger of inflation to one in which there is confessedly that danger. This is only met by the guarantee he has given to the House this afternoon. The deduction from his own statement is that the arrangement which hesuggests as temporary should certainly be permanent. Confessing that in these matters I am dependent on information supplied to me, and am not relying wholly on. my individual opinion, I have thought it well to fortify myself by considering, not only the reserves which have to be kept, but the reserves actually kept without compulsion for the most part by the foremost financial institutions of the world. These are standards by which Australianswill be judged, and can be judged, I hope, without fear. I find, taking the returns for the last two years available, that in. the case of the Bank of England the actual percentage of reserve to liabilities was but a shade below 50 per cent., whilst in the second year it was all but 52 per cent. The-‘ reserve retained in the case of the Imperial Bank of Germany during the last year for which the figures are available amounted to more than 50 per cent., while that retained by the Swiss National Bank was also above 50 per cent. I look through theIndian currency returns, and find that they are but a little lower. In the daily management of these huge financial undertakings we find that the amounts thought necessary to be retained, whatever the compulsory reserves may be, approach 50 per cent. This surely establishes the standard that we ought to adopt. In New Zealand, for the time being, the gold reserve amounts to one-fourth up to an issue of £3,000,000, and above that amount a sovereign is retained for every note issued. That is the position in the Dominion, where finance has always been more enterprising than in Australia, The statement made by the PrimeMinister has altered the whole situation in relation to this measure.

Mr Fisher:

– I am not after money.

Mr DEAKIN:

– But it was with some surprise that I read the communication addressed by Mr. French, General Manager of the Bank of New South Wales, to the Prime Minister, in which, speaking for the banks in their head offices in Sydney, he strongly deprecated - any alteration in gold reserve to be held against note issue of Commonwealth Government as agreed toafter very full discussion between yourself and representatives of Australian banks. I would remind you that a very large proportion of notes outstanding is held by banks themselves as part of their cash reserves.

Mr Fisher:

– With great respect to Mr. French, I say that there was nounderstanding whatever with regard to the amount in notes which the banks should hold.

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr. French states that the matter on which an understanding was arrived at was that there should be no alteration in the gold reserves held against the note issue.

Mr Fisher:

– I did agree at their request to put that in the Bill.

Mr DEAKIN:

– This throws a further light on what was in the Prime Minister’s mind at the time.

Mr Fisher:

– I did it to please Mr. French and the others, although they never convinced me of the necessity for it.

Mr DEAKIN:

– It was necessary for the Prime Minister to give that undertaking then in order to convince the representatives of the banks, and they are more than ever convinced now that a great deal depends on the observance of that undertaking. These experts not only represent a huge amount of capital and a long experience, but have no possible interest in crippling the financial operations of the Commonwealth. It is rather to their interest to encourage the Prime Minister’s financial and other operations, in order that they may secure a better harvest for their own shareholders.

Mr Fisher:

– There was no agreement as regards the amount in notes which they should hold, and it is not desired that they shall hold more than their necessities demand.

Mr DEAKIN:

– What we have to foresee is a condition of affairs forecast already by the Journal of Commerce, which devotes its columns to the consideration of questions of this character. It points out that at any moment in Australia, notwithstanding the broad distinction between our own circumstances and those of Canada, to which the Prime Minister referred, our banks may be required by their exchanges with the Mother Country and elsewhere to ship gold heavily in adjustment, and that -

Such an operation mighteasily lead to a demand on the Commonwealth Treasury to redeem its notes. The banks generally have friendly relations with the Government, each of theparties obliging each other in small things, but friendliness would have to make way for business requirements if the exchanges were adverse.

With the exchanges adverse, the banks with which the Treasurer does by far the greater portion of his business - which have to depend upon him whilst he depends upon them, would, by their very business necessities, have to make demands upon the Treasury that would entrench upon the 40 per cent. reserve which the Treasurer now proposes to maintain.

Mr Fisher:

– A demand for £2,000,000 would not disturb us.

Mr DEAKIN:

– An even greater demand might be made in some circumstances.

Mr Fisher:

– I cannot conceive of the banks demanding more than. £2,000,000 without giving notice.

Mr DEAKIN:

– They would give the best notice open to them, but whether or not that notice would be sufficient for the Treasurer, is quite another matter, and one of vital importance to the country.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– When the banks wanted the gold, the Government would be without it. The same circumstances that would make the banks want gold would cause a stringency so far as the Commonwealth Government was concerned.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Exactly. We are to have another eighteen months’ experience of the working of this system before we are likely to be visited by circumstances that will put a strain on our reserves. In view of that fact, the present discussion is to be postponed, and I propose to refrain from making certain other observations that I had intended to offer. From my own point of view, I venture once more to urge that every step taken at the present is more important than a number of steps taker, when we shall be better known and understood. I advocated, and would still advocate, a 50 per cent, instead of a 40 per cent. gold backing being retained during the first years of this operation ; and I advocate extra caution, not merely for its own sake, but until the financiers of the Mother Country and our own great financial institutions, understand our system sufficiently to give them complete confidence in it, no matter how the financial clouds may lower on the other side of the world, or how war or insurrection might threaten to plunge us into difficulty. If, for the first few years, we maintained an unreasonably high margin, we should be acting in the best interests of the community. We are now at a stage at which even a little panic might have serious effects. We have our financial reputation to establish. Once it is established, we can sit at our ease, as they sit at ease in England, notwithstanding operations that may be affected by the most distant crisis, and other circumstances that give one a feeling almost of vertigo, until one discovers how much of this is built on credit, and the reputation of the Mother Country for unimpeachable finance, as well as a capacity to face all situations. In a lesser degree, that should be one of our aims ; and if I, like others, am a timid and cautious counsellor at this stage, it is because I believe we have now an opportunity to win the confidence of the financial world, which is a great deal better than running even a very small chance of losing it by some unexpected hazard.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I cordially indorse every word that has been uttered by the Leader of the Opposition. I am prepared to accept without any extended debate the offer made by the Treasurer. I take it that as the result of that offer, as amended at the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition, he will hold against the whole current issue a gold reserve of 40 per cent, until the next Parliament meets.

Mr Fisher:

– Yes.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That removes most, if not all, of the difficulties of the Bill, and it removes at the same time the necessity for the Bill itself.

Mr Fisher:

– No.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The scheme as amended will enable the Treasurer to get a little more money, but not much more. I shall confine my attention to one aspect of the question, which seems to me to be - if I may say so without disrespect - not sufficiently present to the mind of the Treasurer. I do not question the validity of any of these investments, nor for the present any future investments that might be made, but it does not seem to be sufficiently present always in the Treasurer’s mind that it is not the security of the investments, but the absolute and paramount necessity of having, in certain circumstances, actual sovereigns that is all important.

Mr Fisher:

– I agree with that.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That being so, there is yet another consideration. The Treasurer’s speech shows that he realizes fully that where you have a statutory margin of 25 per cent, you must never get down to that margin, because what .would happen in cur case if we did is that some of our notes would become inconvertible. If Parliament happened to be sitting at the moment the mistake could be rectified by an urgent Bill being brought down to suspend or amend the Act for the time being, but, except where the aid of Parliament might be called in by the Treasurer, df we came ‘down to our 25 per cent, reserve, we should “have to say to some holders, “ We cannot give you gold.”

Mr Fisher:

– We have Treasury Bills covering the whole issue.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But they are not gold.

Mr West:

– They are liquid assets.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In ordinary circumstances all these investments are not only sound, but mostly liquid, assets.

Mr Fisher:

– What I wanted to point out was that we have a double cover.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not question the cover in the sense in which that word is ordinarily used. The security which the Treasurer has for the money is ample, but, in exceptional circumstances of stringency, they could not be readily turned into gold.

Mr West:

– The notes could be made legal tender.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If we once had to make them a legal tender, and, by extension or otherwise, to make them inconvertible

Mr Fisher:

– I shall never be a party to anything of the kind.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am sure the right honorable member would not. I am prepared to trust the Prime Minister and to accept implicitly the assurance he has gwen us this afternoon. I wish to point out, however, that if we touched the 25 per cent, margin, and if under circumstances that may arise on any day a sudden demand for £1,000,000 were made we should be in a condition of the greatest financial jeopardy, since, at any moment, the note issue might become inconvertible. If it did, no parliamentary explanations and no assurances by the Treasurer would prevent disastrous results to the credit of Australia. That being the case, the 40 per cent, margin, substantial as it seems, is really only a 15 per cent, margin. Your danger point is not when you have no gold, but when you have only 25 per cent, of gold, and have to refuse gold for your notes.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member must take his mind back a little further. A .1:5 per cent, margin will probably give,on the present issue, really a 23 or 25 per cent, margin, as the withdrawals reduce the total.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I know that it works out by a sort of geometrical progression, involving somewhat intricate calculations ; but T think the Treasurer admits the principle for which I am contending. We are perfectly safe in accepting the assurance given by him ; but the public, as well as. Parliament, ought to know that once you are within close touch of your statutory margin, whatever it is, you are in just as bad a position as if you had no gold at all, so far as the inconvertibility of your notes is concerned, and’ so far as your foreign credit is concerned. It is true that you still have the gold, which Parliament may release, and to that extent you are better off.

Mr Fisher:

– Supposing the issue was £10,000,000, and we held .£4.000,000 in the way of reserve. We could pay £2,000,000 on demand, and still hold the 25 per cent, intact.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Undoubtedly. Another thing which has always filled me with a certain amount of apprehension in regard to note issues, and which has been the cause of the wrecking of many such craft in other countries, is this : When things are going extremely well, we are apt to look at ail these matters through rosecoloured spectacles. We are inclined to think now, for instance, that if the banks Or the public generally brought their notes in large quantities to the Treasury, the Treasury would have the necessary gold to meet them ; but it must not be forgotten that the very same circumstances which create the necessity among business men or banks to have sovereigns, instead of securities representing sovereigns, will at the same time militate against the Treasurer getting sovereigns when he wants them, however good his securities may be. We are, therefore, not in such an overwhelmingly safe position ;.is the 40 per cent, margin would at first seem to suggest; but I am delighted to have the Prime Minister’s assurance. In eighteen months’ time we shall have had some experience, and have obtained an ex pression of opinion from the electors throughout Australia, as I understand the Prime Minister’s assurance holds until the next Parliament meets. I am quite prepared to accept it, because in matters of this sort we must always trust the Treasurer. Every Parliament must impose very great- trust in the Treasurer for the time being, and it is fortunate that we can say, as regards our communities, that the occasions on which that trust has been abused have been very rare. There is, of course, no reason to anticipate any other result on the present occasion ; and at the end of tho eighteen months we shall be able to speak with more wisdom and experience about the matter than we can now.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- I understand that what the Treasurer has in view is to get interest on moneys which at present have to be kept as coin.

Mr Fisher:

– Yes; but I also want to establish a principle in which I believe.

Mr GLYNN:

– Really, however, that is the object of this Bill. The position at present is that the Treasurer must keep 25 per cent, of the issue up to £7,000,000. With the money between that sum and the £7,000,000 he can do as he likes, either investing the money in securities, or advancing it for the purpose of public works ; but beyond the £7,000,000 mark he must have gold against the issue. He now wants authority, not to advance the moneys over £7,000,000 for loan works, but to invest it.

Mr Fisher:

– I want power to invest 60 per cent, of it.

Mr GLYNN:

– If that is the object, there is no reason why the Treasurer should not assure the public on that point by making the investment compulsory. Are we simply to rely on his promise to invest the moneys in the securities mentioned in the Act, or are we to allow him to remove the necessity for keeping coin against the issue over £7,000,000, and then leave him free to do as he likes with the money, either advancing it for public works, or investing it ? According to the Act as it. now stands, the Treasurer may invest any moneys over 25 per cent, and under the £7,000,000 on deposit at any bank, or in securities of the United Kingdom, or of the Commonwealth or of a State. As he simply wants power to make a profit on the moneys over £7,000,000, we ought to make the clause read in this way -

The Treasurer shall hold in gold coin a reserve of not less than one-fourth of the Australian note issue, and shall invest under section 8 in the securities of the United Kingdom or of the Commonwealth or of a State an amount equal to the amount of Australian notes issued in excess of £7,000,000.

He will then be getting a profit upon that excess where at present he is not getting any.

Mr Fisher:

– This way is much safer.

Mr GLYNN:

– We have absolutely no experience to guide us as to what proportion of gold should be held against the issue in our circumstances.

Mr Carr:

– Your suggestion will not secure 40 per cent, in the coffers of the State.

Mr GLYNN:

– I do not mind about 40 per cent. We shall have secured at least 35 per cent. The Treasurer is suspending the operation of this Bill until we have had the experience of perhaps the next eighteen months. So far, so good; but if we are altering the principle of the Act for the purpose of making money on our investments, we ought to compel the Treasurer to invest the excess over £[7, 000, 000 according to the terms of section 8 of the Act. I hope that whatever Treasurer is in power then will not reduce the proportions in the Act. At present the Act is based on the Canadian system. In Canada the Government notes are practically gold certificates. The Government are obliged to hold a certain proportion in coin, and are allowed to issue uncovered by coin an amount up to about $30,000,000, but beyond that there must be gold held against the issue. We adopted that principle, so that, as a matter of fact, we have, as in Canada, the principle of gold certificates up to a certain amount, and the banks and the public accept our notes, as in Canada, with the assurance that they are convertible into coin and are as good as coin. So great is that, assurance in Canada that the banks use the Government gold certificates for all purposes of gold, and they are accepted as such. I am afraid that the absolute assurance of the public that the note issue will be practically as good as gold will be defeated to the extent to which we depart from that principle. Apart from the Dominion notes altogether, there is in Canada a system of note issue for general purposes against which ‘there is practically no reserve at all. That is the bank note issue, and it is that which is called upon to meet the expansion or contraction of trade necessities at each season. These notes, since the Canadian banking system was reorganized in 1890, have been met with unfailing regularity. We must, therefore, not be deceived by the Canadian system. We in Australia will have no bank issue. The Government have taken it upon themselves to regulate the whole issue, and in doing that I hope they will stick to the Canadian principle, under which the notes issued by the Dominion Government are regarded as gold certificates, which can be converted into gold at any time with absolute certainty.

Mr King O’Malley:

– So thev are here.

Mr GLYNN:

– We do not ‘know yet whether that is so, with our limited experience, and we shall scarcely know, before next Parliament meets, how much should be held against our issue to meet the demands of trade and commerce. The Queensland experience up to the present is practically no guide to us. Certainly, if we are to depart from the principle of private issue, the Canadian system of regarding the issue as really equivalent to gold certificate is a safe one. To the extent to which we depart from that principle we shall be in deep waters, not knowing when we shall safely make port. When we divorce the issue from banking we cannot tell, without a large experience, what ought to be held. Before the Australian note issue was introduced, 52 per cent, of the total liabilities of the banks were represented in coin and bullion, ready at any moment to meet demands in cheques and notes.

Mr Fisher:

– That is money on demand ?

Mr GLYNN:

– Yes, whether notes or not. The very necessities of the banks compelled them to hold over 50 per cent, of their obligations in coin ; otherwise they were in danger at any time.

Mr Fisher:

– That is money on demand only.

Mr GLYNN:

– I say that 52 per cent, of all the liabilities on demand were represented in coin and bullion; and this was an absolute assurance of the convertibility of the notes at any moment, and of the satisfaction of the demands for export and commercial purposes. That assurance we cannot have with the Commonwealth note issue, though the ultimate solvency in either case is absolutely unquestioned. There is no doubt as to the capacity of the banks, because notes are made a first charge; nor is there any doubt as to the ultimate solvency of die Commonwealth. The_only point is whether, when the notes are to be -exchanged for gold, they can at .once be met by the Government, and the necessities of external trade met. And I think we ought to have a longer experience than we are likely to get in two or three years, before we depart from a principle which, I think, is a fairly sound one.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Fawkner

– Those of us who opposed the Government mote issue did so chiefly because of the fear that the pressure on the Treasurer to relax the stringency of the measure would be so enormous that he would have to give way ; and this Bill is a verification of the arguments we then used. Before the ink is dry, as it were, on the original measure, we have before us a proposed amendment making the gold reserve less than was originally intended. What does. the Treasurer expect to get out of this ? He expects to avoid the necessity of keeping a full reserve, and proposes to substitute only a quarter reserve; and if he takes full advantage of the measure - though he has promised to keep 40 per cent. - to have the handling of £2,250,000 of gold, which he can invest, say, at 3 per cent., realizing a little over £60,000 a year. To imperil the credit of the Commonwealth note issue for the sake of £60,000 a year is a very risky and rash experiment; and I hope the Treasurer will not go on with it. He has cited the Queensland experience, which, of course, is valuable, so far as it goes ; but Queensland finance is overshadowed entirely by the great banking institutions which operate in that, as well as in the other States. There might, for instance, be a panic in Queensland which those great banking institutions would hardly feel, so that I cannot see that the experience of that State, comparatively small, though important, as it is, has any bearing on what might be the experience of the whole Commonwealth.

Mr Fisher:

– Queensland now has half the population of Victoria.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I am very glad to know that Queensland is growing so fast, because I lived there a long while, and take a. deep interest in its welfare. For the reasons I have indicated, the Queensland National , Bank might keep a much smaller supply of gold against a note issue, knowing that the other banking institutions are so firmly rooted in the State that they could afford to run risks, which, if taken by the whole Commonwealth, might be very disastrous. I am “very pleased to hear that we have 50 per cent, of gold in the coffers.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is 48J per cent.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– That is the reserve kept in England, Germany, and all civilized nations; and Australia ought to keep as large a percentage as any of those countries which are in touch with the rest of the world. We are an isolated country ; and, 1 suppose that, if a sudden demand for gold were made, it would occupy a month to have it shipped here from the nearest port, or, at any rate, from London, the financial centre.

Mr Fisher:

– We produce gold at that rate per month - about £1,000,000 per month.

Mr Agar Wynne:

– We produce about £15,000,000 of gold annually.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– We have to provide against emergencies. In the piping times of peace a small gold reserve might be quite sufficient; but 1 have always regarded this reserve as a sort of war-chest.

Mr Fisher:

– We are a gold-producing country.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– We have an advantage there ; but, at the same time, we suffer under the disadvantage of isolation. Sudden demands for gold have been made in the past ; and I remember one occasion when private firms had to import it to meet their commitments.

Mr Fisher:

– I know banks that are doing that to-day to make money.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– Quite so. War is not a likely contingency, but we were very near it not long ago, and it might break out on any day. At any rate, it is a contingency against which we ought to provide. There is no doubt that the big banks on which the commercial solvency of this great country depends regard this gold reserve as absolutely necessary to protect the notes they hold. They look on the notes as something they can take any day to the Treasury and say, “ Here is your commitment on demand, and we should like your gold to meet demands which are made on us, and which we must satisfy.” We have heard a great deal of talk about going cap in hand to the various banks; and I should like the Treasurer to think what the present position is. He has issued notes on demand to the banks to the amount of £6,000,000, while the public hold notes to the amount of .£4,000,000, and he has only £5,000,000 in gold to meet the demands which the banks might make. If war were to break out, and a great demand were made by banks from the other side, as is very likely, this being a debtor country

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member can exclude Queensland from his calculations ; and that means £[2,000,000.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– At any rate, the figures are as I have just stated ; and, supposing a crisis or war were to arise, the Treasurer would be in the position of going cap in hand to the banks, because he would be short by £[1,000,000 in what he owed them. That would be a very grave position. I am not thinking of the .dignity of the Commonwealth, because this is too serious a matter to regard from that point of view - it is not a case of dignity, but of cash. I am afraid that the depletion of the reserve will cause a certain amount of discredit to our note issue. I am very pleased, of course, to hear the assurance we have from the Treasurer; and I hope he will go a little further. I do not wish for one moment to discredit the Treasurer’s word, which I would take as soon as that of any human being; but we may not always have the present Prime Minister m office. I suggest that an amendment should be made in the Bill providing that the reserve shall not be depleted below 40 per cent, until after the next election.

Mr Fisher:

– I could not do that. It means that I should have to keep 50 or 60 per cent.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– The Treasurer would require 35 per cent, as ‘a margin. When I complete a business transaction, the buyer of a property, for instance, though he does not in the least doubt my word, always likes to have the contract in black and white, in view of accidents. I do not desire to see the Treasurer subject to the enormous strain that may at any time occur. However, I have made a suggestion, and I can only say that I am very sorry that we have had this measure introduced. We are a debtor country ; and the higher we keep our credit the cheaper we shall get our money. We can- save infinitely more than £[60,000 a year in one or two great loan conversion transactions. We have loans that must be renewed from- time to time; and if we injure our credit in any way, we may have to pay 1 per cent, more, which would mean an infinitely larger sum than we are likely to gain by the measure before us. However, we have made our protest; and, at any rate, we have an as surance that the margin shall be 40 per cent, until after the next election.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- The idea of a safe margin does not seem to be based on actual or known facts, but rather on an expression of opinion by gentlemen who have studied financial questions. On one side we are told? that it must be 25 per cent., and, on the other, that the reserve must be larger. The Leader of the Opposition was, I think, right in suggesting that at this stage of our history it would be well to be on the safe side, even though we have tohold a larger reserve than is absolutely necessary. Very little harm could come of such a course, whereas a mistake on the other side would have very far-reaching results. This is not a party measure in any sense of the term; and, as I do not feel convinced that we are right in reducing the reserve to 25 per cent., I shall vote against the Bill if it goes to ‘a division. I think it would be better if we waited until after the next election before placing further legislation of this kind on the statute-book. I do not know what is to be gained by passing a measure which is to have nb effect until next Parliament. The subject has been introduced a,t a time when we are sitting night and day to get through business, and members are- being asked not to discuss anything at length, because of the short space of time available. I must, therefore, content myself with saying that, inasmuch as there does not seem to be available any experience similar to our own which will enable us to say what is the line dividing, safety f mm risk, and whether the reserve should be 25 per cent, or any other proportion, it would be better, for the sake of our financial credit, to postpone this legislation until we have had a longer experience of the present system. We shall then be able to legislate in the light of facts, instead of in pursuance of mere opinion.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– - I a111’ concerned only as to how and where the reserve which the Treasurer proposes to keep is to be invested.

Mr J H Catts:

– If the investments are readily convertible, it does not matter what reserve is kept.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is so. The Treasurer is at present permitted to invest any remainder he may have on deposit in? any bank, and he will, therefore, be at liberty to invest it in the CommonwealthBank, although by doing so he will sub- ject it to the ordinary banking risks. I -suspect that that is what he intends to do. There is nothing to prevent him from lending the money to the Commonwealth Bank, and then lending it back from the bank to himself for the construction of public works. Does he propose to deposit this money with the Commonwealth Bank?

Mr Fisher:

– I shall feel bound to invest it in safe securities, at the highest rate ofinterest obtainable, and shall see that some of it isreadily convertible.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I take it that the Prime Minister intends to obtain some of the working capital of his bank from this reserve.

Mr Fisher:

– Not necessarily.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The remainder may be invested in securities of the United Kingdom, of the Commonwealth, or of a State, or placed on deposit in any bank.

Mr Fisher:

– I do not think that I shall find difficulty in obtaining capital for the bank without touching this money.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The temptation to touch it will be very great for any Treasurer. If the money is deposited with the Commonwealth Bank, there will be an irresistible temptation to use it for the construction of public works.

Mr Fisher:

– That could not be done without theauthority of Parliament.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The authority of Parliament is easily obtained. It would be better for Parliament to remove the temptation, by requiring the money to be invested in first class, easily convertible securities.

Mr Fisher:

– British consols?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I donot care what they are, so long as they are first class.

Mr Fisher:

– I did not think of the Commonwealth Bank in connexion with this matter.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am glad to hear it.

Mr Fisher:

– ButI do not wish to the my hands further.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member should make it mandatory to invest the money in certain securities. If the Commonwealth Bank came down, it would injure the financial fabric of the country. I suggest to the right honorable member that he should bind himself to invest this money in securities as to which there can be no cavil.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.I join with the honorable member for

Fawkner in the advice and warning that he has given. The Prime Minister tells us that he wishes to lay down a uniform principle ; but the basic principle of the Act is that there shall be a gold reserve of 25 per cent. for an issue of £7,000,000, and a sovereign for every £1 note issued above that amount. It is now proposed to destroy that basic principle.

Mr Fisher:

– I said that I did not agree with it.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The honorable member was a party to it, and he is now abandoning it without giving us any reason for doing so. He says that he does not wish to use the money that will be liberated, and has promised to scrupulously maintain a gold reserve of 40 per cent. until after the next election. That being so, what need is there for the Bill ? It has not been introduced to meet any great public demand. I see no reason why, at the end of the session, we should be engaged in the consideration of a proposal of this magnitude if the provisions of the measure are not to have immediate effect. They are viewed with grave apprehension by the leading financial institutions and authorities in Australia, as is evidenced by the protest of the Associated Banks.

Mr Fisher:

– There has not been a protest from Queensland.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The. Associated Banks include all the leading banks doing business in Queensland.

Mr Fisher:

– With the exception of the Queensland National Bank, which is a very large institution.

Mr Harper:

– Not larger than twenty others.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I was not aware that there was any exception. The consensus of opinion seems to be that this is a dangerous innovation. The gold backing for the issue over £7,000,000 was provided for at the instance of the banks, and on the understanding that if it were provided they would assist in making the note issue a success. They have done their part, and now hold more than three-fifths of the note issue; so that they are materially interested in its success, and are therefore entitled to be heard. They fear that under the new arrangement they might find it necessary, in the ordinary course of business, to Convert their notes into gold, and that there might not be sufficient gold in the Treasury to meet their demands. Let me read their protest -

The purpose of the Government in holding a reserve of pound for pound beyond £7,000,000 was understood to be the protection of noteholders by insuring payment in full in coin of all notes presented. If, however, the present fixed proportion is altered, as now suggested, and the banks for any reason found it necessary to materially reduce the amount of their Commonwealth notes, it would seem that the reduced gold reserve would not suffice to pay in lull the notes held by the banks.

A calculation shows us that it would reduce the gold reserves from £4,750,000 to £2,500,000, leaving a deficiency of over £500,000 sterling in case the banks sent down the note issue to £7,000.000. That is whythey are alarmed at the proposed innovation. No doubt the assurance givento-day by the Prime Minister that this amending Bill will be practically a dead letter for a considerable time will have a reassuring effect, but it shows that there is no necessity whatever on public grounds for this amendment. If the Prime Minister thinks he is in a position to hold this gold reserve of £4,000,000 for a year or two to come, why not make it part of the law that it shall be so held instead of allowing it to be merely dependent upon a verbal undertaking? In addition to the protests sent in by Mr. Hallimere, Chairman of the Associated Banks, individual protests have been forwarded by representatives of other banks. One of these, Mr. J. Russell French, General Manager of the Bank of New South Wales, wrote as follows -

Banks with head offices in Sydney strongly deprecate any alteration in the gold reserve to be held against note issue of the Commonwealth Government as agreed after very full discussion between yourself and representatives of Australian banks. I would remind you that a very large proportion of the notes outstanding are held by the banks themselves, as part of their cash reserves.

According to that protest, there was an agreement between the Prime Minister as representing the Commonwealth and the banking institutions that there should be this gold backing in respect of the notes issued over £7,000,000.

Mr Riley:

– The Prime Minister denies that there was.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Then, again, Mr. Holmes, of the Western Australian Bank, wired to the Prime Minister -

Regretfully notice proposals to reduce reserves under notes. Consider proposals extremely dangerous, and strongly urge upon Government not to weaken present position.

That is the most serious warning contained; in these various communications. I find that Mr. D. Barclay, on behalf of the Commercial Bank of Tasmania, communicated with the Prime Minister as follows -

May we ask you to reconsider your decision toreduce the reserves against the Commonwealthnote issue? Experience has shown that such a step will lead to trouble. Judging by our own experience, about seven-tenths of the notesissued are held by the banks themselves.

Then, again, Mr. John Shields, Manager of the Bank of Adelaide, wired -

Very strongly urge that no alteration be made to reduce coin reserves against Australian notes. Consider such action highly dangerous, and likely to produce serious results should financial stress occur.

These are very serious warnings coming from the financial institutions of Australia. It may be that coming events cast their shadows before. The banks see that the issue already placed upon the market, amounting to nearly £10,000,000, is not a normal, but an inflated, issue, arising from special circumstances. They may think that a time is coming when they may not be able to hold in their coffers as till money £6,000,000 in respect of notes, and when they will have to send a lot of those notes to the Commonwealth Treasury to be converted into gold. I have seen it stated on good authority that before this Bill came into operation, the normal note issue was between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000 ;. yet it has now jumped to nearly £10,000,000.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The exact amount was £4,200,000 prior to the issue of the Australian notes.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I was surprised to find that so many notes had been issued to the banks ; there must have been special circumstances inducing the financial institutions to take so many of them. A time, however, is coming when these notes will be sent into the Treasury, and naturally the banks are beginning to feel anxious. It is obvious that if this gold backing be abolished,, there will not be that security which the banking institutions deem necessary. I join in the warnings and the protests uttered by the honorable member for Fawkner and the honorable member for Angas, for I regard this Bill as proposing a serious and dangerous change in the agreement between the Commonwealth and the banks, which may bring discredit on our note issue.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I desire to say but little on this question, for the reason probably that I recognise that, whatever may be said by the Opposition, the intentions of the Government will be carried out, and the Bill will be passed. When the Prime Minister introduced the original Bill, he was asked by the bankers to consent to the particular provisions regarding the gold reserve that were ultimately embodied in it. As honorable members are aware, it was laid down in the principal Act that for the first £7,000,000 25 per cent, in gold coin should be held by the Treasury, and that for every £1 note issued over and above that amount a sovereign should be held. I believe the reason for the latter stipulation is that there are times in Australia when the extent of our credit issues vary considerably. Australia is peculiarly situated in some respects, and from time to time we see enormous fluctuations in the volume of credit. Whether that credit is issued by the Commonwealth, by banks, or by private individuals, it will suffer contraction and experience expansion, the Commonwealth credit being open to exactly the same influences as is private credit. Dur.ing a time of expansion the note issue will naturally expand with all credit, and during a time of rapid contraction the note issue should contract proportionately with all credit. One of the two great essentials in respect of a note issue is elasticity. We need to take care that it will automatically adjust itself to natural contractions and expansions of credit from time to time. That is a fundamental principle in respect of the note issue, and we should pass such provisions as will secure its observance. A Government note issue is unlike that of a bank, which is daily passing in and out over the counter, and which automatically adjusts itself to the movements in credit. The bankers asked the Prime Minister to incorporate in the Bill a special provision that, once, the note issue got beyond a certain amount, he should be compelled to hold a sovereign for every note sent out ; so that when there was a contraction of credit, the bankers, finding their own issues contracted, and, possibly, being met at the same time with adverse foreign exchanges, would be able to present their notes at the Commonwealth Treasury with an absolute assurance that when they did present them within the normal contraction of credit the Treasurer would not have the slightest difficulty in meeting them. That is why, I believe, the bankers were so insistent at the time upon this provision, which is now being swept away by the Bill, and which, to my mind, constitutes one of the greatest safeguards of the Act. Immediately after the original Bill became law, Mr. Russell French, general manager of the Bank of New South Wales, in the course of a public address, made mention of the note issue, and said -

While I would have preferred to see a provision of one-third backing in coin, yet, taking everything into consideration and believing that ‘ in practice at least one-third will be kept in hand, I do not anticipate nay difficulties; while with regard to any further issues (i.e., over £7,000,000), the Statute provides that there shall be a sovereign behind every note issued. This is a great safeguard, and we must hope that nothing will induce the Federal Parliament to depart from the sound principle thereby given effect to.

It is not twelve months since the first Australian note was issued, yet we are now faced with a proposal to sweep away the very safeguards which Mr. French urged that Parliament should retain. The Prime Minister may think that he is at perfect liberty to ignore the opinions of men who are high in the financial world to-day; but surely Mr. French had nothing to gain when he expressed this view, since the principal Act has already been assented to. He uttered that warning, feeling, no doubt, as every one must with regard to any State note issue, which is guarded by reserves set up by Parliament, that those reserves and safeguards are subject at all times to political influence. That is one of the worst features of any State note issue.. However perfect a system may be as first introduced, there is always the danger that the same popular authority which established the original safeguards may later on sweep those safeguards away. That is what is happening in this case. We have in this Bill a whittling down of the safeguards inserted in the principal Act which are absolutely essential to the safety of the note issue at a time of great stress and. panic. The Treasurer has stated his intention of retaining a gold reserve of 40 per cent, for the next eighteen months, so that he will have to keep in the Treasury practically every sovereign he has there at present. In the circumstances, he might have left well alone, and let us have further experience. As the interest reserve gradually accumulates, time will inevitably give us more experience and a still greater reserve, so that it is possible that ultimately we might be able to reduce the reserves somewhat from what they are to-day. At the same time, I deprecate any interference with’ them. This is one of the things in which it is almost always better to err on the side of safety, because we never know what may be in front of us. When the original Bill was before the House, the Treasurer said that, in his opinion, the provision now being repealed was a safeguard. He also used these words -

If it should happen that notes are issued on demand to the extent of a million or two in excess of ordinary requirements, then, of course, this precautionary measure would take effect.

I think the issue has already gone beyond ordinary requirements. As the quarterly averages of the banks appearing -in the Australian Insurance and Banking Record for last month show, no less than £6,056,894 worth of Australian notes are held by the banks, or practically two-thirds of the issue. If the banks liked to present at the Treasury half the notes they hold, the Treasurer could not pay them without breaking into the statutory reserve that he is obliged to keep. He holds at present only .£63,065 more than he is compelled to hold under the Statute. I think the normal note requirements for currency purposes are about £[4,000,000, but there is always considerable fluctuation. For instance, in 1910, between the months of March and December, in New South Wales alone there was a fluctuation in the ordinary bank note issue of over £500,000. While it may appear that the Treasurer is holding far more gold than is actually necessary, it should te remembered that the issue is not normal, but above ordinary requirements. The banks are holding from £2,000,000 to £3,000.000 worth of notes more than they actually require, and if they chose to present to the Treasurer half of what they hold he could not meet the amount of gold without encroaching upon his statutory reserves.

Mr Fisher:

– I think I could. Let them try it. The honorable member does not know the resources of the Commonwealth.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is not a question of the resources of the Commonwealth. It is a question of how much gold the Treasurer has in the Federal Treasury. The note issue at present amounts to £[9,883,969. The statutory reserve is £4,653,969, and the Government actually hold £4,697,034. If £[3,000,000 worth of notes were presented to-morrow at the Treasury, the Treasurer would be £[25,000 short in gold, which he could not meet, and yet £3,000,000 is less than half the note holdings of the banks.

Mr Fisher:

– The Treasurer would take out some of the debentures, and go down for a million on demand. The honorable member did not know that.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Of course, I knew it.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member does not comprehend. We will probably have about £[1,000,000 in gold at the banks, and the Commonwealth can take out £1,000,000 worth of debentures and demand £1,000,000 in gold from the banks for them, if anything of that kind was tried.- What nonsense the honorable member is talking! The banks are not thinking of any such thing.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I did not say they were. I am simply making a plain statement of absolutely incontrovertible facts. Everything is flourishing to-day, but if we were met by a severe contraction of credit, when the Treasurer could not go down to the banks and get a million pounds in gold, and the notes were coming in on the banks, and if the banks, instead of holding £6, 000, 000 of notes, held £8,000,000, and were obliged to meet large payments in gold elsewhere, the position would be very serious. That is why the Treasurer should retain the statutory provision already in existence, and maintain the full reserve for every note that he issues over £[7, 000, 000.

Mr SCULLIN:
Corangamite

.- It is hardly right that seven or eight speakers from one side should be allowed to put on record alarming statements without something being said on this side to prevent their assertions going out to the public unchallenged.

Mr Fisher:

– It is nothing to what they said when the note issue was first established.

Mr SCULLIN:

– On that occasion charges of making revolutionary’ changes, and predictions of ruin and disaster, were hurled at us. Now, however, that the Act has been given a trial, it is found that the financial institutions and the public have accepted the notes.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Does the honorable member think that this Bill will stop the bleeding of the people to death that is going on?

Mr SCULLIN:

– We have heard before that the note issue takes from the people a loan for which they are paid nothing. That is so; but the Government takes the money from the people for the people, instead of banking institutions taking it from them. The bleeding, if any, is being done by the Government for the people. Prior to this it was done by the banking institutions for the benefit of a few private shareholders. The Act was condemned as revolutionary, but now even banking authorities are quoted as saying that it is a sound proposition. The Prime Minister has been lectured by great authorities this afternoon; but I am confident that he knew years ago all the things that he was told to-day. He knows that the safety of the note issue lies in preventing a great and sudden expansion. Provision was made in the Act against such expansion, and .1 am very glad that the Prime Minister has given the House the assurance which he gave this afternoon. Even without it, I know that he would have kept a very large margin. We were rightly told by the honorable member for Flinders that the point of practical insecurity, where the notes would become inconvertible, would not be when the last sovereign was’ paid out, but when the statutory amount which must be kept in reserve had been reached. Under the existing Act, that point can be reached much sooner than might be desirable. If we had to keep a gold reserve of 25 per cent, against the first £7,000,000, and a gold reserve of 100 per cent, against everything above that, it would not take a great fluctuation to bring the Treasurer right up against that position. The honorable member for Richmond says we want elasticity, and that is precisely what this amending Bill will _give the Treasurer. It will enable him to keep the note issue safe, because he will have a margin between 25 per cent, and 40 per cent, to fall back upon. One would imagine, to listen to honorable members opposite, that this was a) revolutionary change in the principle, and that we were proposing to keep against the issue above £7 ,000,000 only 40 per cent, of reserve, as against too per cent, of reserve previously. But, with a total issue of £10,000,000, we should still have the statutory reserve of 25 per cent, against the first £7,000,000, and against the next £3,000,000 we should have a reserve of 75 per cent. In other words, we should have £2,250,000 of gold against the extra £3,000,000 of notes. Our short experience has already shown that £7,000,000 is not the normal issue for Australia. It was believed that £7,000,000 would be the normal issue when this provision was made ; but I think we have about the normal issue out at the present time. If anything were to bring about an exceptional expansion of the issue to £^4,000,000, and the surplus was invested, a demand for gold would bring about strange results. The Treasurer, however, would, in these circumstances, hold a sovereign against every note, notwithstanding that he has undertaken to keep a reserve of 40 per cent. The Treasurer and his officers are watching this business, which is a sound one. It does not mean that the Treasurer will have a great deal more money to handle, but he will be provided with something to come and go on. When the honorable member for Richmond was speaking the Prime Minister made an interjection, which I do not think that honorable member rightly understood, because he went on to draw a terrible picture of what the position would be if all the banks were to rake up all the notes throughout Australia and suddenly present them to the Treasury with a demand for gold. Does the honorable member think that the Commonwealth of Australia has no other resources than the sovereigns held in reserve behind the note issue? As a matter of fact, in order to carry on the ordinary business of the Government, the Treasurer has something like £1,000,000 on current account. We have heard a great deal about the isolated and otherwise peculiar position of Australia ; but I think that very circumstance makes us better able to meet sudden demands of the kind anticipated than are other countries of the world. For one thing, we are a gold-producing country, and next we have no great fluctuations in the seasons. Canada, for instance, has all her eggs in one basket, as it were, climatically speaking, whereas in Australia we have all kinds of climates, enabling us to produce all the year round. Under the circumstances we are not so exposed as Canada is to any sudden expansion or contraction of the currency ; and our peculiar position is really to our advantage. I see no danger in the change proposed by this Bill, so long as we have the present Treasurer in office. Of course, there is always a danger in any system of finance or currency, because, if the man at the head of affairs is determined to do wrong he will do so, whatever the law may be. We may be sure, however, that we shall not see the Treasurer “ ride for a fall “ in this respect. The proposal is to keep a reserve of £4,000,000 in gold against the note, issue of £10,000,000. At present it is necessary to keep a reserve of £4,750,000, and the difference could be met, if ever it was necessary, from the Treasurer’s current account. I certainly should have looked at the matter in a different light had we not the absolute promise that the reserve will be kept at 40 per cent.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That the following new clause be inserted : - “ This Act shall come into operation on the 1st day of July,1912.”

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- I understand that, though it is provided that the Bill shall come into operation next July, it will really not be acted upon until the 1st July, 1913?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

.-I repeat that the object of this Bill is not to get money for the Commonwealth. I shall, as Treasurer, keep a 40 per cent. reserve in gold to meet any issue of Australian notes until the people are consulted at the next general election.

Proposed new clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with an amendment.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed through its remaining stages.

page 4852

ELECTORAL BILL

Bill recommitted for the reconsideration of clauses 33a, 33b, and 39a.

In Committee (Recommittal) :

Clause33a (Copies of ballot-paper).

Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That the clause be left out.

Mr WISE:
Gippsland

.- This is the clause of which I gave notice; but I agree with the course the Government are now proposing. I really intended this as an alternative clause, and had I been present, I should not have moved it.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 33b (Amendment of section 180).

Clause verbally amended.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move -

That paragraphs d and e be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following paragraphs : - ” (d) Printing, publishing, or distributing any electoral advertisement, notice, handbill, pamphlet, or card containing any representation of a ballot-paper, or any representation apparently intended to represent a ballot-paper, and having thereon any directions in tended or likely to mislead or improperly interfere with any elector in or in relation to the casting of his vote; “(e) Printing, publishing, or distributing any electoral advertisement, notice, handbill, pamphlet, or card containing any untrue or incorrect statement intended or likely to mislead or improperly inter-fere with any elector in or in relation to the casting of his vote. “ Provided that nothing in paragraphs (d) and (e) of this section shall prevent the printing, publishing, or distributing of any card, not otherwise illegal, which contains instructions how to vote for any particular candidate, so long as those instructions are not intended to mislead any elector in or in relation to the casting of his vote.”

It will beremembered that, after this clause had been passed, further discussion took place, and 1 undertook that an opportunity would be given to honorable members to further consider it when there was a fuller attendance.

Mr WISE:
Gippsland

.- Paragraphs d and e, which it is proposed to omit, were part of an amendment of which I gave notice, which was moved in my absence by the honorable member for Maribyrnong. It was hastily drafted late at night, and the proposal now made by the Prime Minister is a great improvement upon it.

Sir John Quick:

– What mischief is it intended to remove?

Mr WISE:

– The honorable member for Maribyrnong produced a card which circulated during the recent Victorian election in the district of Benambra, on one side of which was the direction to “ vote for the progressive candidate,” signed by the Secretary to the Women’s National League, and on the other side what purported to be a. copy of the ballot-paper for the division, in which, in squares opposite the candidates’ names, were the figures 1 and 2, the figure 1 being opposite the name of Mr. Craven, and at the bottom was printed the notice, “ Unless you mark your paper as above it will be void.” The honorable member said that a similar direction had been published in the Argus, and withdrawn on the Department of Home Affairs calling attention to it. There would have been no objection to the direction, “ If you wish to vote for Craven, mark your ballot papers thus,” but to say that the vote would be void if marked otherwise was a deliberate attempt to mislead the electors, such as we should discountenance. The proviso covers all cards honestly issued.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– Will it cover the cards issued by the Labour Call at the last election?

Mr WISE:

– It will cover all cards which should be covered, and the issue of any others should be punishable.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- In paragraphs d and e the words “ directions intended or likely to mislead,” are used, but in the proviso only the words “ directions intended to mislead “ appear. It seems to me that the same language should be used in both portions of the amendment. What directions would be likely to mislead would be difficult to decide. What might mislead an innocent like myself would not mislead experienced politicians like the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. This provision will probably give the police magistrates who have to deal with the cases brought under it a fine opportunity to display their political bias. They are sure to find that directions issued on behalf of their friends are not likely to mislead any intelligent person. If we think the electors not sufficiently intelligent to avoid being misled by the palpable misrepresentations which are sometimes circulated, we should leave no loop-hole for conflicting decisions under which one man may be punished and another escape.

Mr Fisher:

– With the permission of the Committee, I shall amend my amendment by inserting the words “ or likely “ after the word “ intended “ in the proviso.

Amendment amended accordingly, and agreed to.

Clause39a (Institution of proceedings for offences).

Clause verbally amended.

Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to-

That the following proviso be added : - “ Provided that this section shall not affect the right of any person to institute proceedings in respect of any offence under this Act.”

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported with further amendments.

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That the Bill be again recommitted to a Committee of the Whole for the reconsideration of clause 32a.

Mr CHANTER:
Riverina

– I hope that the House will not agree to the recommittal. The insertion of the clause was objected to on the ground that there was not a full attendance when it was made; but the attendance then was better than it is now, and we shall stultify ourselves if we reverse our decision, which was come to by a considerable majority. I should offer no objection to this course had we now a full House, but I have noticed certain things to-day which determine me, if the recommittal be agreed to, not to consider members or Ministers, but to give very lengthy reasons why the clause should remain in the Bill.

Question put. The House divided.

AYES: 26

NOES: 15

Majority … … 11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

In Committee (Second Recommittal):

Clause32a -

On and after the date of issue of any writ for the election of a member for the House of Representatives, or for the Senate, or for the taking of any referendum vote, any article, report, letter, or other matter commenting upon any candidateor the issues then being submitted to the electors, printed and published in any newspaper, circular, pamphlet or “ dodger,” shall be signed by the writer giving his true name and address.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– When this clause was inserted in the Bill, I thought it of sufficient importance to warrant further consideration. There may be different opinions held regarding the action taken in recommitting the clause, but I thought it advisable when it was first proposed that further time for consideration, should be allowed, and I therefore agreed to recommit it. I must say, however, that since then, no practical solution of the difficulty seems to have been discovered, and the Government intend either to give the clause as it stands, or some substitute for it, a trial.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I do not desire to disturb the equanimity of my honorable friends by moving the omission of the clause, but I hope they will recognise the reasonableness of proposing that it shall not be left to any private individual to institute proceeding for a breach of it. I therefore propose to move the insertion of a proviso that no prosecution for an offence under the section shall be instituted, except by the written authority of the Attorney-General .

Mr Higgs:

– I have a prior amendment to propose.

Mr MAHON:

– Then I shall be glad to give way to the honorable member.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I have given notice of my intention to move several amendments, so that the clause shall read -

On and after the date of issue and before the return of any writ for the election for a member of the House of Representatives, or for the Senate, or for the taking of a referendum vote, every article, report, letter, or other matter commenting upon any candidate, or political party,or the issues being submitted to the electors, printed and published in any newspaper, circular, pamphlet, or “ dodger,” shall be signed by the author or authors, giving his or their true name and address at the end of said article, report, letter, or other matter.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

The clause as it stands provides that any article, letter, or matter shall be signed by the “ writer,” but as the honorable member for Coolgardie pointed out when the question was previously under consideration, the “ writer ‘ ‘ might be a typist, or some other person, who had written an article at the dictation of the author. I therefore propose to substitute the word “author” for the word “writer,” and I think it necessary to propose a further amendment providing -

  1. Any newspaper editor or proprietor who permits, in any newspaper which he edits or owns, the publication of any unsigned article, report, letter,or other matter commenting upon any candidate, or political party, or the issues being submitted to the electors, after the issue and before the return of any writ for the election of a member of the House of Representatives, for the Senate, or for the taking of a referendum vote, shall be deemed guilty of an offence against this Act.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

I move first of all -

That after the word “ issue,” line 1, the words “ and before the return “ be inserted.

That amendment will make the clause read that on and after the date of issue, “ and before the return of any writ ‘ ‘ all such articles as are covered by the clause shall be signed. I think it would be a good thing for the public if all articles appearing in the press throughout the year were signed, but since we are dealing now with an Electoral Bill, we cannot insert in it a provision to that effect. It would appear to me to be necessary to impose some limitation as to the time in respect of which published articles shall be signed, and I therefore propose to make it “ on and after the date of issue and before the return of any writ.” Mr. Speaker has informed me that a writ is sometimes not returned until a month after the taking of the poll ; but I do not think that any real hanm would be done in requiring those commenting on the result of an election to attach their names to their articles. As this is a very important provision, I shall perhaps be pardoned, even at this late stage of the session, in making a few observations as to the necessity for it. I propose in the first place to reply as briefly as possible to some of the arguments that have been advanced in opposition to the proposal in a leading article published by the Melbourne Argus. That newspaper claims that in France a man frequently uses the press to force his way into Parliament. What objection can there be to that? If a man by signing articles written by him, and published in the press, can show the people that he is a fit and proper person to represent them, why should he not be elected? Would that not be preferable to the present system, by which the daily papers place thousands of copies before the people every morning, giving a ticket of candidates whom, in their opinion, the electors should choose? If a man proves by his signed articles his capacity to assist in governing the country, he ought to be able to come here. The method now adopted by the press is distinctly wrong. Sometimes the papers will select a ticket of names, and suppress all reference to the other candidates, except in personal paragraphs reflecting upon them. Some candidates for Parliament supported by the daily press are not able to write their own speeches, which are sometimes written for them by the journalists, who do not sign their names. Rather than that such a candidate should be forced into Parliament, the man who was capable of writing the speeches ought to be returned.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Higgs) agreed to -

That after theword “ vote “ the word “ any “ be left out, with a view to insert the word “ every.”

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I move -

That the word “ report “ be left out.

A report may be supplied by a neutral pan, and does not contain comments. To insist on all reports of election meetings being signed by the reporters will impose an oppressive burden on newspapers, and serve no useful purpose.

Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke

.- I should like to hear from the honorable member for Bendigo a legal definition of the word “ report.” Apparently, all the Opposition want is a legal quibble, in order to provide a “get out,” thus nullifying the whole clause.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

– A report is the account given in a newspaper of a meeting at which certain speakers express opinions. It is proposed that this shall be signed by the reporter or reporters ; but it is not they who will be answerable for the report that actually appears. Their account of what is said at the meeting passes through the hands of a sub-editor, and is treated according to its interest and the exigencies of space. My experience is that reports are faithful, except so far as necessary condensations or omissions may alter the colour of the speech; but honorable members cannot put upon either the reporter or the sub-editor, in the case of the report of a speech, any such personal responsibility as usually attaches to the writer of a letter or article.

Question - That the word “ report,” proposed to be left out, stand part of the clause - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 26

NOES: 13

Majority … … 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendments (by Mr. Higgs) agreed to -

That after the word “ candidate “ the words “ or political party “ be inserted.

That the word “ then,” line 6, be left out.

Amendment (by Mr. Higgs) proposed -

That the word “ writer,” line9, be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ author or authors.”

Mr SCULLIN:
Corangamite

.- The amendment in its present form might lead to some confusion. If “writer” means “ author,” there is no need for the change, and if the word does not mean “ author,” it must mean something else. I take it the desire is to have the article signed by the author, and not necessarily by the person who actually wrote it.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- One person may be both the writer and the author ; but there are cases in which one person may be the author and another the writer. I suggest that by retaining the word “ writer “ and inserting after it the word “ and,” the one signature would include both.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- My desire is to reach the author, and not the man who may typewrite the article. I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Higgs) proposed -

That after the word “ writer,” line 9, the words “ and author or authors” be inserted.

Mr CHANTER:
Riverina

.- I can imagine quite a number of cases in which there may be two persons concerned, namely, the author and the person who does the actual writing.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– The author may never have intended the matter for publication.

Mr CHANTER:

– The desire is to reach the individual who causes the publication of the article ; and, in my opinion, the word “writer” is more significant than the word “ author.”

Mr Carr:

– The honorable member has no desire to punish an innocent typewriter ?

Mr CHANTER:

– Certainly not.

Mr Carr:

– The typewriter has to do as he is told to do.

Mr CHANTER:

– That is what the Argus has said in regard to newspaper writers. That newspaper unblushingly told us the other day that the journalists are not to write reports or articles which they think to be right and correct, but what they are told to write by the authorities in conformity with the policy of the paper. The honorable member for Bendigo tried to have the word “report” omitted; but I know of cases where reports handed in by the reporters have been so mutilated that they would not recognise their own work, and yet, on the mutilated versions, criticism has been founded.

Mr Deakin:

– And yet it is desired to punish the reporter.

Mr CHANTER:

– That is not so; but the attachment of the reporter’s signature to an original report would clear him in any case.

Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke

.- I suggest to the honorable member for Capricornia that the words “ writer and author “ would meet the case. When a journalist reports a speech, he is technically the author of that speech. A journalist published some of Lord Rosebery’s speeches, and described himself as the author; and when Lord Rosebery took the case into Court, the decision was given in favour of the reporter.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- No doubt, a reporter who misrepresents a speaker in a report will be responsible, but I take it that the word “ author “ has a more definite meaning as attached to the writer of leading articles, and so forth. Such a production can be traceable to one person, and not to a series of persons who may have had a. hand in the writing out of the report of a speech.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Higgs) agreed to -

That after the word “ his “ the words ,c or their” be inserted.

Amendment (by Mr. Higgs) proposed -

That after the word “ address,” line 10, the words “ at the end of the said article, report, letter, or other matter” be inserted.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- All this is very entertaining, but we might try to make the meaning as clear as possible. It is provided that the production shall be signed by the “ author or authors, giving his or their true name and address.” This presumes that the author or authors have only one name and one address ; and I suggest that the words “ names and addresses “ should be used.

Mr Higgs:

– I accept the suggestion of the honorable member, and ask leave to amend the amendment.

Amendment amended accordingly.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- An amusing skit has been published on the proposal that reporters shall attach their names and addresses to reports. We have been asked to imagine a report of a speech of thirty lines signed with the names and addresses of four reporters who have been concerned in the work. It is ridiculous to suppose that four reporters would be employed on so short a report ; but, if they are engaged in producing a report of, say, a couple of columns, their names and addresses can appear at the end.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- The clause does not cover magazines. It speaks of articles published in arty “ newspaper, circular, pamphlet or dodger.” A magazine is not in that category. We know, however, that magazines are continually publishing articles on political subjects. To make the provision as farreaching as honorable members desire, I suggest the insertion of the Word “ magazine “ after the word “newspaper.”

The CHAIRMAN:

– The amendment is out of order, as the Committee has already agreed, to an amendment in a later part of the clause.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

.- The clause indicates a good intention, but evidences little wisdom. In trying to entrap the press, we shall only place ourselves is difficulties. The libel law sufficiently protects every person from grave injury, and in any case the signing of articles and the like would give no more protection than we have. Those who desire to publish untrue or unworthy statements could, under a system of dummying, provide names to take the authorship for them. The signing of articles is, in my opinion, subversive of the liberty of the press.

Mr AGAR WYNNE:
Balaclava

– - I agree with the honorable member for Macquarie that the provision makes a farce of legislation. The politician who cannot stand criticism, and- even abuse, from opponents and the newspapers, is not worthy of being called a man; and the signing of articles and. the like would do nothing to make his position better. On the other hand, to insist on it is an interference with the liberty of the press. I am surprised that the National Parliament of Australia should fear criticism. Surely the public can judge the actions of members, and it is in the interests of the people that the press should be able to criticise them freely. I have suffered as much as any man from press criticism, but I have survived.I cannot understand a paltry proposal of this kind.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I intend to draw attention to the fact that the new provision numbered b is. not an amendment of clause 32A, but creates a new offence, and is out of order. But before doing so I ask who is to be liable to the penalty of £50? For offences under clause 172b the proprietor is made liable.

Mr Webster:

– The guilty person will be liable.

Mr MAHON:

– Who is the guilty person? A reporter might give a fair and unbiased account of an election speech which the sub-editor, for want of space or some other reason, might cut down to one-fourth of its length, in the process doing injustice to the man who made the speech. In that case, should the reporter be liable? The clause fairly bristles with ridiculous possibilities, andwe should do our best to make it intelligible, so that the Courts may know what is meant by it.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I hope that the honorable member will not take the point that the provision marked b is out of order. If a reporter’s signature is not attached to a report through the fault of some other person, he can ex- onerate himself by proving that he is not to blame. As for the statement made by the honorable member for Macquarie, surely we are not to believe that reputable editors and newspapers proprietors, occupying a distinguished position in society, would stoop to the subterfuge of inducing men to attach bogus names to articles? Journalism has greatly altered during the last quarter of a century, and there are many reasons why the clause should be amended in the way that I propose; but, since it is the evident desire of honorable members that we should proceed to a vote without delay, I shall content myself with moving

That the following words be added : -

  1. Any newspaper editor or proprietor who permits, in any newspaper which he edits or owns, the publication of any unsigned article, report, letter, or other matter commenting upon any candidate, or political party, or the issues being submitted to the electors, after the issue and before the return of any writ for the election of a member of the House of Representatives, for the Senate, or for the taking of a referendum vote, shall be deemed guilty of an offence against this Act.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

Mr Mahon:

– I ask your ruling, Mr. Chairman, as to whether the proposed new sub-clause is in order? It creates a new offence, and proposes entirely new matter in a clause that is under recommittal.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I rule that the amendment is in order.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

– I oppose the amendment, and wish to ask what we shall gain by it in the way of electoral reform ? I heard the question put on this side of the House, and some one replied, “ We do not want to take advantage of it to prosecute any one; we merely wish to ascertain the names of the writers of these articles.” For what purpose? Is it but to gratify mere idle curiosity?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The honorable member knows that it is not.

Mr BRENNAN:

– I am not going to argue the question of the constitutionality of the proposal, but I should like to know what object there could be in submitting it if it be not to satisfy mere idle curiosity as to the names of persons who criticise honorable members in the press? I can hardly imagine honorable members on either side invoking the law of libel against the reporters and others whose business it is to report what takes place on the hustings or elsewhere in connexion with elections. If they were invoking the law of libel, I apprehend they would invoke it against the proprietors of the newspapers - against the men who can pay - and not against their fellow workers in connexion with journalism. My chief objection to the amendment is that it will serve no useful purpose, but, speaking as a party man, that it will strike a blow purely at our fellow workers in the journalistic world. It is going to hit a section of the wage-earners. It is going to make the gentlemen who write articles for wealthy newspaper proprietors disclose their names, and so handicap them in their desire to earn an honest living. If it pleases my honorable friends to recriminate upon their fellow unionists of the Australian Journalists Association, they are welcome to do so, but I do not join hands with them.

Mr Anstey:

– The printer and publisher of a newspaper is made responsible for what appears in it. Why is he called upon to give his name? Why was Findley, the publisher of a newspaper, expelled from Parliament?

Mr BRENNAN:

– Two wrongs do not make a right. I had not the slightest sympathy with the expulsion from Parliament of the gentleman referred to.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The honorable member dare not have any sympathy with it.

Mr BRENNAN:

– I dare do all that may become a man. It has been said that no man should write for newspapers sentiments in which he does not wholly believe. Honorable members have sat themselves a. lofty standard.

Mr Mathews:

– We say nothing of the sort.

Mr BRENNAN:

– It has been said that a journalist should not write that in which he does not wholly believe. I desire to ask honorable members on both sides if their view?, their votes, or their acts have ever been coloured to any extent by the views of any considerable number of their own constituents ? If this lofty standard is to be adopted in respect of newspaper writers, it is only fair that we should apply it to ourselves. I almost feel disposed to quote the honorable member for Bourke, who, speaking during the discussion on the Tariff in this House, said, to the amusement of honorable members - I do not know that he was quite serious, however - that he spoke with great feeling, because the persons interested in the raw material, as well as in the finished article relating to the item under discussion, resided in considerable numbers in his electorate.

Mr Anstey:

– I also said that that fact did not in the least influence my judgment. That, however, was not mentioned. There, again, we have the very clever reporter.

Mr BRENNAN:

– I am not making any accusation against the honorable member. But if honorable members say that it is dishonorable for a man to advocate in the press, for pay, a cause in which privately he does not wholly believe, I can only reply that that is a sentiment of hypocrisy to which I cannot subscribe.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Who said that?

Mr BRENNAN:

– The honorable member for Melbourne is one of the distinguished examples. He said that it was a prostitution of intellect to express in writing sentiments in which one did not wholly believe.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I do not remember using the word “ prostitution.”

Mr BRENNAN:

– I do not know what object this amendment is to serve, so far as the purification of the electoral law isconcerned, nor can I see how it will advantage any party. I am speaking as aparty man, purely in the interests of unionists.

Mr Webster:

– Of journalists.

Mr BRENNAN:

– Of the JournalistsUnion - the workers in this particular industry whom the honorable member is going to embarrass. This proposal, if adopted, will handicap these men in their efforts to obtain a living. If we are libelled’ we can attack the proprietor.

Mr Webster:

– It is a question, not of libel, but of justice.

Mr BRENNAN:

– What does the honorable member want ? He wants’ to get at’ the names of writers of articles.

Mr Mathews:

– For a purpose.

Mr BRENNAN:

– What is the purpose?

Mr Mathews:

– I cannot tell the honorable member while he is speaking.

Mr BRENNAN:

– The. honorable member can speak to say that there is a purpose in view, but not to tell me what that purpose is. I know that the press has frequently misrepresented honorable members most grossly, and no one resents that sort of thing more than I do. I know that men have been cruelly and grossly misrepresented, and that some have been hounded down by the press. No one canhave sympathy with such tactics. But when such a thing takes place, we know what to do. We attack the proprietor or the publisher of the newspaper. We attack the man at the back of the newspaper - the man who actually does the wrong. In this, as in other matters, we attack the employer, not the employe. We have an Employers’ Liability Act, under which the employer is responsible for certain acts of negligence on the part’ of his servants, and I hope that we shall have a Workmen’s Compensation Act, which will make the employer still more responsible than he is at present. Labour legislators do not seek to hit at the worker in other industries, but they will do so in this case. They are going to say that the man who is working for a weekly wage - who, in many cases, does not receive a sum greatly in excess of that which we are paid for our services - shall be penalized. He is to be called upon to disclose his identity, and advertise himself in the press. He is to be hit, and for what purpose? These men- are employes, and I ask honorable members whether there is any industry or occupation in which members of the Labour party make men similarly situated disclose their names? None whatever. It is said that, because unfair statements are made in the press, we must ascertain the names of the writers.

Mr Webster:

– The honorable member advocates that we should take them lying down.

Mr BRENNAN:

– I have not done so yet ; I have simply advocated that we should hit at the responsible person.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The man who has the money.

Mr BRENNAN:

– It is not a question of money. Neither do I hold, as an interjection would suggest, any brief for the legal fraternity.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The honorable member is holding a brief for yellow journalism. It is a disgrace to journalism.

Mr BRENNAN:

– -It is the honorable member’s privilege to wax indignant on the floor of the House; but would it not be better for him to show where I am wrong?

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– We want fair play from the press for at least one month in every three years.

Mr BRENNAN:

– Can the honorable member show that what I have said is not perfectly true - that those who- support this amendment are hitting at their fellow wageearners?

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Hired assassins.

Mr BRENNAN:

– If they are. really as bad as the honorable member makes out, let them be made amenable to the criminal law. If they are not, if they are mere workers in .this industry, and this law is likely to embarrass them, honorable members should consider what they are doing. I shall vote against the proposal.

Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke

.- The honorable member for Batman referred to a certain remark I made in connexion with another matter. Honorable members who were present on that occasion will remember that I said that the contesting parties on the question were resident within my own district, but that that did not in the least affect my judgment. I added that, like the majority of honorable members here, I was animated by those national and patriotic motives which are alone the subject of our solicitude. Now we get a sample of the reporting type of man who omits the context, turns my statement upside down, and represents me as stating that my decision upon the question was affected by the fact that the contesting parties were within my constituency. The honorable member for Batman asks in what other industry such a law as this is to be found. The honorable member does not need to go outside of the industry. He will find an instance in the law requiring the name of the printer and publisher to appear on a newspaper. The honorable member takes the view that the proprietor of a paper has to be prosecuted, but it is the printer and publisher who stands as the legal entity to be proceeded against, whether he is a dummy or not. The honorable member for Balaclava asked why we should be afraid of publicity, or of being assailed anonymously? There is a world of difference between us who occupy seats in this Chamber, and speak on the public platform, and the men who write anonymously. We assail each other, but, at least, our attacks on each other are limited by the fact that we know each other, and that we have, at least, a little shame. We do not say on the public platform what we should be ashamed to say to one another’s faces. We use our influence against each other as parties and as individuals, but we stand upon the basis of facts, however much we may colour them; and, at least, we know the men who assail our policy, our principles, and our reputation. Some one spoke of the freedom of the press ; but who were the men who built it up but the Leigh Hunts and the Cobbetts, and did they not publish their names ? If I use a newspaper to make an attack upon another member of this House, should I do it under the shield of anonymity? Should I publish anything which I would be ashamed to say from a platform or from the floor of this Chamber? Is there any reason why I should shake hands and be friendly with a man in the lobbies, and then walk down to a newspaper office in Collins-street, and stab him in the back by publishing about him things which I would be ashamed to say to his face? Why should not every man connected with the daily press be subject in his occupation ‘to the same publicity as we have to face? The honorable member for Balaclava said newspaper people could easily get round this provision by using the name of some nonentity. Let them, and the article will have exactly the value which belongs to that nonentity. There are self-respecting men of repute connected with the journalistic world who will not permit their names to be utilized by the proprietors of great journals as dummy signatures to statements which they could not justify when face to face with the men who were assailed. The clause will not in any way lower the standing of Australian journalists ; on the contrary, it will give them a status, and an independence of their proprietors which they do not now possess. Their market value will rise in proportion to the reputations which their writings earn for them. Men who value their reputations will write only those things which will bring honour to themselves. Without in any way reflecting on any person, I would ask the honorable member for Batman if, after all, he has been influenced in this matter by national and patriotic motives, or by the fact that he is intimately associated with the journalists’ organization?

Mr Brennan:

– I know something about it, any way.

Mr ANSTEY:

– Until the honorable member rose, no speaker in this debate had introduced a single word of reflection. There was no need for him to do it ; and I tell him, with all respect, that he should have been the last to do it. I can see no reason why the clause should not be carried in its entirety ; and why, at those great crises in the history of our country, and probably in our own lives, when we are contesting elections, we should not strip the disguises off the men who in the columns of the daily press assail us, whether we are members of’ the Labour or the Liberal party ? Let us know who are the persons who abuse us through the medium of these great dailies. I do not think that at any previous period of the existence of the Labour party its members have done a better deed in the interests of true freedom than they are doing in this instance.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- My apology for addressing any further remarks to the Committee lies in the fact that some members of the Labour party are prepared to vote against this proposal. With the honorable member for Bourke, I think the carrying of it will be a distinct advance in civilization, The newspaper proprietor of a few years ago was a single individual, with a. reputation to maintain or lose. Many newspapers of to-day are owned by men who are interested in pastoral properties, gold-mining, coal -mining, coppermining, and other undertakings. The paper is published, as a rule, for profit, and as a rule is opposed to any radical or labour legislation which will in any way diminish the dividends of its shareholders or directors. Journalism is not now what it used to be. It is more of a commercial machine; but I would ask those pressmenon whose behalf the honorable member for Batman has appealed, why they are not prepared to follow the example of Mr. E. W. Ward, the editor of the Sydney Daily Telegraph** Years ago, when the capitalistic directorate of that paper wanted him to advocate the selling of the Stateowned trams to private capitalists, he said, “I will leave the paper first,” and he did so. Whatever Mr. Ward may do in the future, however conservative he may become as he grows older, we shall always remember to his credit that he left the *Daily Telegraph rather than do the public of New South Wales an injustice by advocating something in which he did not believe. Robert Blatchford, who conductsthe Clarion, on 7th November, 19x1,. wrote -

I have been writing for more than a quarter of a century. I have never written a word” that I did not believe. I have never flinched from telling what I believed to be the truth. I have never allowed money or popularity toinfluence me in my work.

The opinions which, journalists write in the newspapers are either their own or they are not. Either they believe in them or they do not. If they do not believe in them, if they are prostituting their minds for the purpose- of gain, what is the difference between them and the unfortunate harlots who walk Collins-street, selling; their bodies for bread? This clause will compel those men to choose between earning their living honestly and earning it dishonestly. I believe, with the honorablemember for Bourke, that it will be better for- journalism if men have to sign their names to what they write. There are able men to-day working for the capitalisticnewspapers who are never known to the general public, and when their services aredispensed with they have no asset in their past work. All their good work has gone into the pockets of the people who own the newspapers. It will be far better for them when they can sign- their articles. The public will then know their abilities, and journals will be competing with one another for their services. There are to-day people writing leading and other articles for newspapers inflaming the public mind on defence and other questions who are ashamed to sign their names. There are people in the Parliaments, or the civil services of the various States, who are writing leaders in the papers criticising their own Ministers. I know a man who was a civil servant in South Australia, and who was for- years retained as a leader-writer for one of the dailies. Many people are employed by the commercial newspapers to write leading articles, and the time has come for them to come out into the daylight, instead of skulking behind the curtain of anonymity. Let them give expression to their views and stand by them, as we have to do. Honorable members talk about being afraid of criticism. We are not afraid of criticism; but let us know the man who utters it, and then perhaps we shall be able to put a little of the acid of criticism on him, and defend ourselves the better. ‘

Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong

– It is much to be regretted that so much heat has been introduced into the debate. In the circumstances, it is obvious that we are not competent to give the proposal fair and judicial attention. We have all suffered under the lash of the press from time to time, but any display of active resentment or vindictive legislation is unworthy of us. Many press articles, particularly on special subjects,’ are already signed ; and if there is anything to be said in favour of the signing of leading articles, there is no need for a comprehensive clause of this character, which embraces every little miserable paragraph of the most simple character commenting on candidates or political parties. Does that not reduce journalism to an absurdity, and make it ridiculous in the eyes of the world, so far as Australia is concerned? The real meaning of this provision is that reporters are to be penalized. I have listened in vain to ascertain the object of this legislation, or any substantial argument in its favour.

Mr Scullin:

– How will this clause penalize the journalists?

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– Every journalist will have to bear the responsibility for what he writes.

Mr Chanter:

– And so he should !

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– I think we are forgetting first principles. The profits of the big journals belong, of course, to the proprietors, who, at present, are responsible for any damage done by way of libel to the individual. Strengthen the law of libel as much as you like, and make it rigid enough to insure that no man shall be done an injustice.

Mr Chanter:

– How can a poor man afford to invoke the law ?

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– If any injustice is done by a journal there is no difficulty in getting compensation. Where libel is established and damage is shown to have been done newspapers are mulcted very heavily as a rule, because the sympathies of the public, and of the jury, are generally with the complainant ; as a matter of fact, newspapers go to Court, practically with a degree of prejudice against them. Reporters, under this clause, will be exposed to risks for the most innocent acts; and what is the benefit or advantage to be gained ? No one has ventured to say that the public will be benefited in any way; and the only effect will be to add liabilities to the occupation of men who earn their living in employment by newspaper proprietors. ^ The reporter is only doing his duty ; and if any malice is introduced the pro- vprietary is responsible. The reporter who simply records the fact that Mr. So-and-so “ delivered an able and lucid address “ on a particular occasion, will have to sign the report. Does that not, in itself, reduce journalism to a burlesque? This legislation is ludicrous and unworthy of a National Parliament, bearing as it does on its face, resentment and vindictiveness.

Mr SCULLIN:
Corangamite

.- Several attacks have been made on those who support the clause, and that of the honorable member for Batman was most vigorous. That honorable member asked whether the object was merely idle curiosity, and, in return, I ask what objection there can be to the provision? Is the objection not that the newspaper writers are afraid to sign their names? Arguments which go forth to the world on any question, political or otherwise, should rest on their merits, and not on any fictitious value imparted by the immortal “we.” If an argument is good it will carry conviction, but we ought to know the gentleman who advances the argument. Why should a journalist, because he has the ability to write, be placed in a different position from that of a speaker, whose ability is displayed in speaking? Why should the speaker on the platform have to come out in the open, while the newspaper writer is shrouded in mystery and licensed to stab in the dark?

Mr Brennan:

– It is the newspaper which- stabs I

Mr SCULLIN:

– We are not dealing with legal quibbles, but with the question on its merits. The electors, who have to decide great issues, should be able to judge of the merits of the different cases put forward, and that is not possible with the present anonymity of the press. As a matter of fact, some journalists write for different newspapers, and speak, with different voices ; and if that fact were known, their writings could be judged on their merits. The honorable member for Batman asks whether there is anything wrong or dishonorable in men advocating something in which they do not believe, even when the work in hand is the.building up of a nation. There I join issue with the honorable member, and say that there is something wrong and dishonorable in such a position.

Mr Brennan:

– The honorable member is a censor of morals.

Mr SCULLIN:

– I am not; but I say that a man who writes arguments should father them in the open.

Mr Carr:

– This law will not make him do that;

Mr SCULLIN:

– I think it will. A public speaker may not speak with two voices without being publicly condemned - he may not advocate Free Trade in New South Wales to-day and Protection in Victoria to-morrow - and then excuse himself on the ground that he is merely earning his living. When the writers of articles are known, their arguments can be treated on their merits, and discounted as they deserve. We wish to know who are the gentlemen who shake us by the hand and then stab us in the dark through the columns of the press. The honorable member for Ballarat said that journalists are advocates, and are justified in advocating causes which may not be their own; but advocates in the legal profession do not go into Court incognito, with masks on their faces. In what other profession or business, where there is a chance of swaying public opinion, can a man work without coming out into the open ? We are not attempting to destroy, the freedom of the press; but we have a right to know who is endeavouring to guide opinion when great questions of public policy are before the country.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- I regret that so much heat has been imported into this discussion, for there does not appear to be any great principle involved.

However, I rose chiefly to explain the vote I intend to give. I voted in favour of this clause, and it will be remembered that on that occasion there was no discussion. I have to say that immediately afterwards I regretted the course I had taken, and, after more mature consideration, I have come to the conclusion that it was a wrong vote, and it is not my intention to support the provision now. No good will come of restricting too much the liberty and freedom of. either individuals or the press.

Mi. Chanter. - It is not freedom, but licence.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I do not know that it is ; and, in any case, there is always the law of libel for those who are aggrieved, though I know that most people do not care to go to law on account of the expense. This clause will affect every individual who, during an election, writes a letter to the press bearing on political matters, and the result will inevitably be that some most valuable contributions will not now see the light. There are cases in which such writers, for very good reasons affecting their families, are afraid to sign their names ; so that not only newspapers, but individuals, will be affected in a way which I do not consider advisable. I believe in restricting as little as possible the liberty of the people ; and, therefore, I shall vote against this clause. . My own belief is that the Labour party occupy the Treasury benches to-day simply and solely on account of the unfair treatment meted out to them by the newspapers, treatment which called forth the sympathies of the electors when it was discovered that the party is sincere and honest in the efforts they are making. A liberty-loving people will always stand by what is right, and they are quick to discern when the press goes to unfair extremes.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m. (Wednesday.’)

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– During the debate this afternoon, when my comrade on my right was speaking, I interjected hotly, because I understood him’ to be insisting on the right of the working men to employ hired assassins. I do not wish the impression to go abroad that the party thinks that it has that right. While, in the ordinary walks of life, a man may sell his services to his enemy, he has no right to lend his intellect to the power of wealth to besmirch his fellows. Our object is to scotch the dirty, yellow journalism. I take no exception to the remarks of honorable members who, like the honorable member for Balaclava, are backed by the money power. That power has always influenced the press throughout the world, and even the London Times is subject to it. But knowing the yellow journalism of America, I say that we are justified in trying to prevent it from getting a footing here. I delight in the Opposition of the press, but it is not too much to ask it for one month in every three years to be consistent, honorable, and clean. It has been suggested that we are legislating to interfere with the press at all times, but these provisions will take effect only during election campaigns, when public affairs and the actions of politicians are, so to speak, sub judice.

Question - That the words proposed to be added be so added - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 25

NOES: 14

Majority … … 11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I move -

That the following words be added : - “ Provided that no prosecution for an offence under this section shall be instituted except under the written authority of the Attorney- General of the Commonwealth.”

The addition of those words will cause these provisions to work less mischief than would otherwise result from them. As they stand, any person - a discharged employe, for example - could vent his spite and vindictivehess against a newspaper proprietor or reporter by instituting pro ceedings against him, and in this way the position of those connected with the press might be made intolerable. The AttorneyGeneral will deal with applications in a judicial capacity, and by leaving the initiation of proceedings to him, we shall provide a safeguard against abuse which, on the whole, should work well.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- So far as I can gather, procedure like this can now be followed only under the antitrust legislation. I hope that the Committee will give the proposal a good bump. We should always beware of the Greeks when they approach us bearing gifts.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 14

NOES: 25

Majority … …11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Question - That the clause as amended stand part of the Bill - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 25

NOES: 14

Majority … …11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported with further amendments.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed through its remaining stages.

page 4864

OLD-AGE PENSIONS APPROPRIATION BILL

Second Reading

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill embodies no new principle, and provides simply for an appropriation of £4,000,000 for the purposes of the Trust Fund established for the payment of invalid and old-age pensions. The principle of these funds is that more than one payment may be made into them, but that the total payments made cannot exceed the amount for which the appropriation is made. The Trust Fund will shortly be exhausted, and this Bill simply provides that any moneys that are available may be paid into it from time to time for the purposes of the payment of invalid and old-age pensions. The fund is a kind of big bag into which any moneys available for the purpose may be placed.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and the Standing Orders being suspended, passed through its remaining stages.

page 4864

NAVAL DEFENCE BILL

Second Reading

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Honorable members have had this Bill on their files for some days, and I am pleased to say that it passed through the Senate with the unanimous approval of both sides of the Chamber. It contains three principal points. We are giving an expensive education and training to certain of our Australian lads in the Naval College, and it is essential that, after the Commonwealth has educated and trained them’, there should be some guarantee that their services will be subsequently at the disposal of the Commonwealth for a reasonable time. It is therefore proposed that the lads may, of their own consent, and with the consent of parents or guardians, enter into contracts carrying them over the age of twenty-one, so that their services may be continuously available to the Commonwealth, but so that they cannot contract themselves into any liability beyond the age of thirty years. When the Imperial Conference met in England earlier this year, an agreement was entered into by the Imperial Government and the Dominion Governments respecting the discipline of the Navy and certain interchanges that might be necessitated in times of stress or in training. With the consent of the Commonwealth Government, our Fleet Unit may at some future time be working or training in conjunction with the Fleet Units of other parts of the Empire, or even with the Head-quarter’s Navy itself. In such circumstances, the Bill provides that the senior officer on the station at that moment may,with the consent of the Commonwealth, or the consent of any other Dominion Government, take charge of the whole of the vessels in that area, but so that the internal arrangements of the Unit will not be unnecessarily interfered with. So far as the general operations for training purposes or in times of stress are concerned, the senior officer, whether from Canada, Australia, or England, is, for the time being, to have charge of the fleet then assembled. The third point concerns the matter of discipline. In the event of a breach by any of the officers, it is made possible for a court martial to be established of officers from any portion of the fleet then assembled, whether they come from the Canadian, Australian, or Imperial Unit. A position may arise when the rank of the offending officer in our Fleet Unit would be such that we could not have sufficient officers to constitute a court martial to try him. This Bill enables a court martial to be established so that any officer may be tried. There is, however, a reservation that, no matter what the circumstances are, it will be impossible for any court martial, however constituted, to inflict the penalty of death upon an Australian officer without the consent of the GovernorGeneral of the Commonwealth.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- This is evidently a very necessary measure which, few and simple as are its provisions, will to a large extent constitute a landmark in the development of our naval strength. I hope that its provisions will not require to be taken advantage of so far as they are compulsory or mandatory, but that the spirit of the young men of Australia will respond to the call of the sea as heartily and thoroughly as did that of their ancestors. We trust by their aid .to constitute in this portion of the Empire an Australian squadron flying the old flag and taking its part beside the other squadrons of the fleet on the day of necessity.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- Is it the intention, of the Government to follow the beaten track of conservatism in- regard to courts martial by composing them exclusively of officers of the Navy, or will .they take into consideration the advisableness of having the rank and file represented on the Court when any case is to be tried?

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his kindly remarks respecting the Bill. I shall bring the points raised by the honorable member for South Sydney prominently before the Minister of Defence for his immediate consideration.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and, the Standing Orders being suspended, passed through its remaining stages.

page 4865

DEFENCE BILL

Second Reading

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

It is another brief measure which has received the unanimous approval of the Senate. In the attempt to establish a scheme of universal training, a slight weakness has been found in the Defence Act passed in 1909. Certain penalties may be imposed on lads who meet on parade grounds, but it is impossible to inflict any penalty upon those who deliberately abstain from attending parade, until they reach the age of eighteen. The Government ask in the Bill for reasonable power to secure the services of the lads from the ages of fourteen to eighteen, so that they may go through the ordinary drills prescribed for their benefit and the general good of the Commonwealth. This omission from the Act of 1909 has been discovered by some of the lads, who refrain from putting in an appearance on the parade ground. A little time ago, the Minister ordered a surprise inspection, and it was found that only a little over 30 per cent, of the lads who should have been on parade were attending to their duties. By closing up the slight loophole that has been found in the Act we shall be doing justice to those who have taken advantage of it, and also to those who are conforming to the requirements of the law. It has also been found that the hours of drill for senior cadets are somewhat excessive, and, after careful inquiry from the experts, it has been decided to reduce them by one-third. At present, the whole-day drill consists of six hours. In “future, it will consist of four hours. The half-day drill will be reduced from three hours to two hours, and the night drill from one and a half hours to one hour. The experts say that this may be safely done without impairing the efficiency of the cadets. At the same time, it will constitute a relief which, I think, the lads will appreciate. Honorable members have from time to time complained that lads have had to walk too far to the parade ground, or have had at times to attend drills in bad weather. The Bill gives power to the Minister, in the event of a lad residing 2 miles or more from the parade ground, to remove the necessity for his attendance, and, in the event of the weather proving inclement, to order that the drill be either left out altogether, or taken at some other and more suitable time. The Bill provides that in certain districts, where it is found that day drills would be an improvement because of local conditions, or the work in which the residents are generally- engaged, the Minister may make arrangements accordingly. These are the three points to which I direct attention, I hope with success.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- After the clear exposition we have heard, the Bill needs no furher discussion, at all events at the second-reading stage. It will be a welcome intimation to all our citizens that, in enforcing discipline under the Defence Act, every proper consideration is being given to the ages of the lads, and to the curtailment qf the demand on them to a minimum consistent with efficiency.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.- I trust the authorities will be extremely careful in bringing cases before the Court.

Mr Roberts:

– There is no intention to bring them before the Court.

Mr FENTON:

– I do not know what steps are to be taken, whether a court martial or a special court is intended; but I hope considerable tact will be exercised by the Area Officers and others in authority, for it largely depends on them whether the movement is a success or not.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

– I should like to know whether the powers conferred on the Minister will be exercised by way of general regulation, or whether each case will be taken separately.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I am glad that a Bill has been introduced to make the drills and general compliance with the Defence Act very much easier. No boy under sixteen years of age ought to be compulsorily trained in defence. Even in the matter of physical culture, if a boy, up to sixteen years, is allowed to play as every schoolboy ought to, he will exercise his limbs quite as well and better than under the present system of making him drill for so many hours per week and per month. It is wrong to worry and disturb the mind of a boy of fourteen years of age by compelling him to undergo certain defence drill, making him think of war.

Mr Deakin:

– Most of the boys heartily enjoy it.

Mr HIGGS:

– If so, why is it that a Bill is now introduced to enable the authorities to prosecute because 30 per cent, of the boys in Australia will not attend drill.

Mr Deakin:

– They will in a little while.

Mr HIGGS:

– Some parents are too thoughtless, and expect too much from their children. They send them to work at too early an age; and it should not be necessary for a child under sixteen to help to earn the family bread and butter. It is a mistake to expect apprentices between fourteen and fifteen. years of age to give up their Saturday afternoon; and it is equally a mistake to deprive them of the public holidays. When I was a boy in an office, I used to look forward to these vacations; indeed, I think I spent the” rest of the week in looking forward to the Saturday afternoon.

Mr Thomas:

– Is the honorable member looking forward to Christmas? We are.

Mr HIGGS:

– I shall respond to that appeal, and content myself with this brief expression of my views, hoping that the Minister of Defence will soon bring in a Bill to relieve all boys under sixteen years of age of the compulsory drill.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and, the Standing Orders being suspended, passed through its remaining stages.

page 4866

CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL

In Committee (Consideration of Senate’srequests).

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– The Senate has remitted thirty-one requests, of which I propose to ask honorable members to agree to twenty-nine.

Mr Fenton:

– Are there any serious points involved?

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not know of any.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– Are there anysuggested increases of taxation?

Mr TUDOR:

– Yes, and I shall point them out. The first request relates to brewers’” pitch, which the Senate desires shall be allowed to remain as before, namely, free ; and the second and third requests are purelyverbal.. The fourth request relates to1ginger n.e.i. in brine for the manufacture’ of crystallized preserved ginger, and the Senate desire that the duty should be made i£d., instead of id. This is one of the amendments to which I invite honorable members to disagree. It was held that this commodity would compete with green ginger, and that, on that account, thereshould be a difference in the duty; but if it is brought here in brine, and duty ischarged on the latter, there is sufficient difference. This commodity is largely used in manufacture of crystallized ginger, and about 130 tons were made ‘ here last year. If is stated that unless the duty is put back to id., the industry will be seriously affected. Request No. 5 relates to linen handkerchiefs and serviettes. This House agreed that the duty should? be 25 and 20 per cent. Piece-goods have, all been made free in the Tariff, and the Senate suggests that instead of 25 and 20. per cent, the duty should be 35 and 30 per. cent. I do not ask the House to go back to the duty suggested by me in the new. Tariff, but, as a compromise, to adopt a duty of 30 and 25 per cent., which will, I consider, give protection amounting practically, to prohibition. These are the only two-, items on which I propose to ask honorable members to disagree with the Senate’s requests. No. - 6 is a formal request, and. No. 7 refers to an increase in the width of . braid from 2 inches to 3 inches. Request No. 8 is to strike out “ gimp n.e.i.” This, gimp is not manufactured for any othercountry in the world except Australia. It is a fancy trimming, and because there wasprovision for gimp n.e.i. in the Tariff, importers are calling fancy trimmings by that name, and thereby avoid paying a proper amount of duty. The amendment will make gimp dutiable as trimmings.

Sir Robert Best:

– This is really a departmental amendment.

Mr TUDOR:

– It is to assist in the administration of the Department. It is now difficult to define what is gimp and what is a trimming, and nowhere else in the world is gimp sold but as a trimming. It is a raw material, like many other articles in the same item in the Tariff. Request No. 9 relates to cutlery, which, “includling silver ferrules or plated articles “ was made dutiable by this House at 15 per cent. and 10 per cent. The Senate request that the quoted words shall be left out, and “ including the articles named when plated or silver ferruled “ inserted. Request No. 10 has to do with electrical machines and appliances, and provides that preference shall be given to generators for direct couplings to steam turbines. There was previously a preference of 5 per cent., but as the item was removed from 5 per cent, and free to other items which carry a duty of 20 per cent. or12½ per cent. but with no preference, the Senate request that a 5 per cent. preference be maintained. The duty will therefore be 25 per cent. and 20 per cent., and17½ per cent. and12½ per cent. Request No. 11 relates to dextrine, which has given rise to much trouble. I suppose that every honorable member has been interviewed more than once on this subject.

Mr Mathews:

– Dextrine ought to pay a duty !

Mr TUDOR:

– I quite agree with the honorable member. We have to recollect, however, that the Senate decided on this request by a vote of more than two to one, and I do not think it wise at this period of the session to insist. Manufacturers who obtain the advantage of a protective Tariff do not show much patriotism when they are not prepared to pay their fair share of Protection, so that some of their raw material may be manufactured here. I propose to ask the House to agree to the request of the Senate, and leave dextrine free. The next amendment asked for is consequential. Then comes a request for an amendment of the marble and granite duties, which will give a preference of 5 per cent. to the stone coming from Great Britain, most of the granite imported being Aberdeen granite. The Senate asks us to amend , the timber duties in such a way that kauri will be dutiable according to size at the ordinary rates, and white pine and rimu at 6d. per 100 super feet. We fixed the duty on gramaphones at 10 and 5 per cent, so that, making allowance for the free portions, the rates on the cabinets would be equivalent to the furniture duties of 35 and . 30 per cent. ; but the Senate asks us to make the duties 5 per cent., if the imports are from foreign countries, allowing imports from the United Kingdom to come here free. The same Tariff will apply to records. Buggy saddles the Senate asks us to make dutiable at the same rates as harness saddles, because it is held that a distinction cannot be drawn between them ; and the rates will therefore be 6s. and 5s., or 36 and 25 per cent. ad valorem. The next amendment which we are asked to make will leave hides dutiable at 3s., as from the day of the introduction of the Tariff.

Sir Robert Best:

– Duties may have been paid in accordance with the altered scale.

Mr TUDOR:

– I think that all payments have been made under protest, under section 164 of the Customs Act, with a view to securing refunds. The Senate asks us to permit the importation free of paper-felt or carpet felt for the manufacture of roofing felt, and like substances, subjectto the departmental by-laws. It is desired that we shall increase the duty on vehicles from 35 and 30 to 40 and 35 per cent, because we are taxing some of the raw material at the rate of 10 per cent., and it was thought necessary to have a wider margin. The honorable member for Wentworth pointed out that our proposals regarding motor car bodies being made dutiable at £24 10s. and £21, or 35 and 30 per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty, were unfair, because no distinction was made between the various kinds of bodies. The Senate asks us to make single-seated bodies dutiable at £17 and £15, doubleseated bodies dutiable at £24 10s. and £21, and bodies with fixed or movable canopy tops, such as landaulettes:, limousines, and taxi-cabs, dutiable at £42 and £36.

Mr Deakin:

– That is a Government proposal ?

Mr TUDOR:

– Yes.

Sir Robert Best:

– It obviates having alternate rates.

Mr TUDOR:

– Yes. The original rates pressed heavily on single-seated bodies, amounting, in some cases, to 80 or even 100 per cent. ad valorem.

Sir John Quick:

– Is a concession made in regard to second-hand motor cars?

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not know of any.

Sir John Quick:

– Was a concession allowed previously?

Mr TUDOR:

– Previously, the duty was charged ad valorem. It is not likely that second-hand motor cars will now be imported. Most of the motor car bodies are now made in Australia, and members have told me that the Australian bodies are equal to the best made abroad. Only to-day, a fine of £2,800 was imposed in Sydney on an importer who had not been paying the proper rates of duty ; but had the rates been fixed as proposed by the Senate, there could have been no evasion. The Senate asks us to increase the gross tonnage of dutiable imported vessels from 400 to 500 tons, and suggests an amendment which should meet the point of the honorable member for Ballarat, that it is not now clear that vessels which were ordered before 1st December, and provided it can be proved that the contract was signed before that date may come in free of duty. We decided that the duties should operate from 1st July next ; but the amendment requested by the Senate will enable such vessels as were ordered prior to the introduction of the schedule to come in free if imported within twelve months. To meet an objection raised by the honorable member for Coolgardie, the Senate requests us to allow the importation of pictures for cathedrals and churches free. I propose to ask the Committee to make all the requested amendments, with the exception df those relating to items 54 and 117.

Sir John Quick:

– What will be the new duty on springs?

Mr TUDOR:

– They will be dutiable at 5 per cent, more than previously.

Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong

– There is enough material in these amendments to occupy attention for a day or two, were honorable members disposed to be very critical ; but many of them are improvements,; and, as to others, we must recognise that there must be a process of give and take. We must, too, be guided largely by the advice of the Minister, who has the departmental experts behind him.

Many of the proposed amendments will assist classification. Regarding handkerchiefs, I think that a fair proposal is made. There was a time when a duty of 20 per cent. would have been thought a good duty ; but, under present circumstances, rates of 30 and 25 per cent. embody a fair compromise.

Item 54 -

  1. Ginger n.e.i. in brine for the manufac ture of Crystallized Preserved Ginger, as prescribed by Departmental By-laws, per lb., on and after 14th December,1911,1d.

Senate’s Request. - After “1d.” add “ and on and after - December, 1911,1½d.”

Amendment not made.

Item 117 -

By inserting in the item after the word “Sachets” the words “Cotton or Linen Handkerchiefs and Serviettes.”

Senate’s Request. - Leave out - “ By inserting in the item after the word Sachets ‘ the words ‘ Cotton or Linen Handkerchiefs and Serviettes ‘ “, and insert - “ By inserting in the item before the word Cosies ‘ the letter ‘ (a) ‘ and by adding a new sub-item -

Cotton or Linen Handkerchiefs and

Serviettes, ad val. 25 per cent. … 20 per cent. ; and on and after December, 1911, 35 per cent. … 30 per cent.’ “

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) proposed -

That requested amendment be made with the following modification : - “ The duty under General Tariff ‘ to be’ 30 per cent.,’ and under Tariff on Goods the Produce or Manufacture of the United Kingdom,’ to be ‘ 25 per cent.’ “

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- I hope that the Committee will not agree to this. The manufacturers of these handkerchiefs have told us that they have enjoyed a high protective duty. I fail to understand why the Minister should have reduced the Protection to the extent that he did. These manufacturers placed their case before the Senate, which recognised the justice of their claim, and made a request that the rates be raised to those prevailing under the old Tariff. Those concerned state that if the duty be reduced they will be severely handicapped. They proceeded to erect a factory and to import machinery some time ago, in the belief that the old Tariff would be maintained.

Mr Tudor:

– I think I am offering a fair compromise on the Senate’s request.

Mr RILEY:

– But the Minister is proposing a reduction compared with the rates that prevailed under the old Tariff.

Mr Tudor:

– I am not; and I do not think any one of the manufacturers will say that I am.

Mr RILEY:

– That is news to me. My desire is that the item shall be restored to its old position.

Mr Tudor:

– Even the Senate has not requested that the duty be restored to its old level.

Mr RILEY:

– The honorable member is proposing a reduction of 5 per cent. on the request made by the Senate.

Mr Tudor:

– The Senate proposes duties of 35 per cent. and 30 per cent., and I suggest duties of 30 per cent. and 25 per cent.

Mr RILEY:

– In the first place, the duties prevailing under the old Tariff were reduced under the schedule submitted to the Committee by the Minister.

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– The position was thathandkerchiefs were dutiable at 40 per cent. and 35 per cent., according to the country of origin. Piece-goods for patterned handkerchiefs came in at the same rate of duty as did the finished article, and manufacturers had to pay 40 per cent. and 35 per cent. for their raw material, but the ordinary plain piece-goods came in free. It was urged by manufacturers that atleast one-half of the handkerchiefs that are used are patterned, so that half of the material used by them was dutiable at the same rate as that relating to the finished article. I was a member of the deputation that waited on a former Minister of Customs with a view to securing an alteration of the duty on piece-goods in this respect; and I am going to vote every time, and to urge the Committee to vote with me, for a fair margin of Protection. I believe that the duties of 35 per cent. and 30 per cent. which are now proposed as a modification of the Senate’s request, will more than represent the whole of the wages paid in this industry. We certainly ought not to impose rates of duty which would not only be, to a large extent, prohibitive, but would be equal to more than double the wages paid in the industry. I think that my proposal will give the local manufacturers a fair margin of Protection - greater in fact than that in respect of 90 per cent. of the articles dealt with in the Tariff as a whole. I hope that theCommittee will agree to our proposal.

Motion agreed to.

Item 134 (Trimming and ornaments).

Senate’s ‘ Request. - Add the following new paragraph : - “ By omitting from sub-item (b) as on and after - December, 1911, the words gimp n.e.i. ; ‘ “

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) agreed to -

That the requested amendment be made with the modification that before the word “ December “ the figures “21st” be inserted.

Item 177 -

By omitting the first line of the item and inserting in its stead the following words : - “ Electrical Machines, and Appliances : - “

By omitting the whole of sub-item (G).

Senate’s Request. - After the first paragraph insert the following new paragraphs : - “ By adding at the end of sub-item (a) the words ‘ and on and after - December, 1911, ad vol. 25 per cent. … 20 per cent.’ “ By adding at the end of sub-item (b) the words ‘ and on and after - December, 1911, ad val.17½ per cent. … 12½ per cent.’ “

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) agreed to -

That the requested amendment be made with the modification that before the word “ December” in each paragraph the figures “21st” be inserted.

Item 261 -

By omitting the whole of sub-item (b) and inserting in its stead the following sub-item : - “(b) Cements . . . Dextrine . . . ad vol. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.”

Senate’s Request. - Leave out “ Dextrine.”

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) proposed -

That the requested amendment be made.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.- I desire to know why dextrine is not made dutiable at 30 per cent. and 25 per cent. like similar articles in the item?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– Dextrine was previously free, but this House agreed last week to its being made dutiable, together with cements and prepared adhesives, at 30 per cent, and 25 per cent. The Senate, by an overwhelming majority, decided, however, to make a’ request that dextrine should be omitted from the item-

Mr Archibald:

– Quite right.

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not think that the Senate was right; but, at the same time, I am not prepared to run my head against a brick wall. Certain manufacturers from other States are so anxious to help the foreigner, as far as this industry is concerned that they canvassed a great many honorable members, with a view of having our proposal negatived. The item is only a small one, and I, therefore, do not ask the Committee to disagree with the request.

Motion agreed to.

Item 268 -

By inserting in sub-item (a) after the word “Marble” the words “and Granite.”

By omitting from sub-item (d) the words “ 30 per cent.” and inserting in their stead the words “ 35per cent.” and on and after 14th December,1911, ad valorem, 40 per cent.”

Senate’s Request. - Second duty column insert “ 35 per cent.”

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) proposed -

That the requested amendment be made.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I understand that on granite imported into Great Britain, polished there, and then shipped to Australia, a preference of 5 per cent. is allowed, provided that the work done in Great Britain represents 25 per cent. of the value of the material, I should like to receive from the Minister an assurance that that condition is observed

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– The position is that if all the labour done upon the raw material is carried out in Great Britain, granite, on being imported into Australia, is entitled to a preference. That preference is granted if 25 per cent. of the value of the article has been produced in Great Britain. The honorable member may rest assured that every care is taken by the Customs Department in regard to this matter. The Department has the reputation of always endeavouring to secure the highest rate of duty. That is a proper course for it to take, in order that there shall be no unfair discrimination. Under the item as it stands, there will be an increase on the rate of duty that was operative under the previous Tariff.

Motion agreed to.

Item 380 -

By omitting the whole of the item and inserting in its stead the following item : - “ 380. (a) Vehicles n.e.i., ad valorem (General Tariff), 35 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.

Vehicle Parts, n.e.i., including

Wheels n.e.i., Undergear (inclusive of Axles, Springs, and Arms), Axles n.e.i., Springs, Hoods, and Bodies n.e.i., ad valorem (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.” . . .

Senate’s Request. - Sub-item (b) duty columns, add “on and after - December,1911, 40 per cent. ; … 35 per cent.”

Add the following new sub-item : - “ (c) Vehicle Parts, viz. : - Wheels n.e.i. * ad valorem* 35 per cent. … 30 per cent. ; and on and after - December, 1911 … ad valorem 40 per cent. … 35 per cent.”

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) agreed to-

That the requested amendments be made with the modification that before the word “ December,” twice occurring, thefigures “ 21st “ beinserted.

Item 392 -

By omitting the whole of the item and inserting in its stead the following item : - “ 392. On and after 1st July, 1912 -

Vessels, n.e.i., not exceeding 400 tons- gross register, arriving on and after: 1st July, 1912,’ trading intra-State orinterState, or otherwise employed in Australian waters for any continuousperiod of three months, ad valorem(General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United’ Kingdon), 25 per cent.”

Senate’s Request. - At the end of item add the following new sub-item : - “ (f) Vessels specified in sub-item (b),. ordered for the purpose of Australian trade, and for the construction of which a contract was signed withintwelve months before 1st December,. 1911, provided such vessels arrive in Australia on or before 31st December, 1912, free.”

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) proposed -

That the requested amendment be made.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

. -I would suggest to the Minister that the requested amendment be made, with a modification omitting the words “ within twelvemonths before,” and inserting in lieu thereof the words “ prior to.” Some of theState Governments may possibly be expecting the arrival of dredges that were ordered before 1st December, 19 10, and such a modification as I have suggested would meet cases of that kind.

Mr Tudor:

– Under the proposal as it stands, they will be allowed two years from the date of signing the contract to the date of delivery, and I think that should be sufficient to protect them. For example, a vessel, for the construction of which a contract was signed in December, 1910,. may be delivered up to the 31st December,. 1912.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– But if a vessel wereordered more than twelve months prior to the 1st December, 1910, it would not come within the Senate’s proposal.

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– The drafting of this item caused more trouble than any other, because we were anxious that no person who had entered into a contract prior tothe introduction of the Tariff should suffer. In allowing thirteen months, we are givingc a long enough time to cover any case that is likely to have occurred. I ask the honorable member not to press the amendment-

If there had been any case such as he suggests, some member of the House would have heard of it.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- Allowing from six weeks to two months for an order to reach the Old Country, it is quite possible that vessels ordered prior to December, 1910, have not yet been delivered. I am not objecting to the duty, but those who entered into contracts under free conditions should not be embarrassed. The Tariff has been rushed through rather hurriedly, but in the present temper of the Committee I can see that it is futile for me to press the matter.

Motion agreed to.

Remaining amendments made as requested.

Resolutions reported; report adopted.

Bill returned to the Senate amended accordingly.

page 4871

MINISTERS’ TRAVELLING EXPENSES

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– In the early days of this Parliament it was arranged that members of the Ministry holding portfolios should not be allowed anything for expenses when travelling about the country on official business. At that time, of course; not much travelling was done, but it has become increasingly necessary, especially in recent years,for Ministers holding portfolios to pay official visits to various parts of the Commonwealth, often travelling great distances. In the opinion of the Government, the time has come when allowances ought to be given to Ministers when they are travelling on official business in the Commonwealth or its Territories. When the honorable member for Coolgardie and myself were delegates to the Premiers’ Conference at Hobart some years ago, as representatives of the Commonwealth, we had to pay our own expenses. The same thing has occurred in other instances, and I wish to intimate to both Houses that the Government think it would be fair for the Prime Minister, while on official visits only, to be allowed 40s. per day, and other Ministers holding portfolios to be allowed 25s. per day when on similar visits.

Mr Higgs:

– Why not make it “ reasonable expenses “ ?

Mr FISHER:

– I hardly think that 25s. a day would be excessive.

Mr Sampson:

– It is not enough.

Mr FISHER:

– I am very loth to make this statement, but I know what has occurred in my own case, and in the cases of other Ministers. The Minister of one particular Department was travelling backwards and forwards on official business for no less than ninety days, at his own expense ; and, while no complaint is made, I believe that the people of the Cornmonwealth and the Parliament do not desire that state of affairs to continue.

Sir John Quick:

– What assurance have we that Ministers might not engage in party business ?

Mr FISHER:

– I said on purely official business. If Ministers went on party business, they would, of course, not draw any allowance. The Postmaster- General will have, for instance, to visit the wireless stations from time to time, and it is only fair and reasonable that his travelling expenses should be allowed. I think that the people expect that at least fair expenses should be paid in such circumstances. The Minister of External Affairs informs me that last year he was travelling on no less than 100 days upon purely official business. When I was in Opposition I urged the honorable member for Ballarat and his Ministers to take steps in this direction, because I believe it is the right one, and the matter has become much more acute as time has gone on.

page 4871

QUESTION

SHORTAGE OF LABOUR

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

.- I wish to make a personal explanation. Last night, when speaking on the question of inrmigration, I stated that, according to Ministerial statements, there was a dearth of labour to carry out work in Government Departments, as well as in private avocations. I was challenged to show where any such announcement regarding public works had been made by a Minister in the House. I had in my mind at the time a statement regarding industries made by the Minister of Trade and Customs, but I was particularly referring to a speech by the ex- Postmaster- General. Last session, when the Estimates were before the House, the honorable member for Hunter and the honorable member for Parramatta urged that the votes should not be allowed to lapse. The honorable member for Parramatta desired the then Postmaster-General to push on more expeditiously with postal works, and the Minister, as reported in Hansard, Vol. LVI., page 2781, made the following reply : -

The Department is not altogether to blame for not being able to cany out more works; the fault lies primarily with the Parliament for not voting more money in the past, so that material, instead of being brought simply for specific works, could be obtained in large quantities. Then, again, there has been a great want of trained men in order to carry on the work. We can employ temporary hands for much of the work, but it is essential that the supervision should be in the hands of permanent officials responsible to the Department.

Mr West:

– Some of the temporary hands are as good as permanent hands.

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

– I believe there are temporary hands who are even better than some of the permanent hands, but it is only right and fair that the latter should perform the work of supervision.

I make this explanation in justification of what I said yesterday, because I promised the honorable member for Melbourne, who spoke after me, that I would give my authority. I recognise that this statement by the Postmaster-General rather limits the area of employment. The unemployed problem referred to by the honorable member for Melbourne last night is a very difficult one; and I agree with Burns, who says that one of the saddest sights is a man in quest of work and unable to find it. We are a highly-civilized community, with a genius for legislations and I regret that the question of unemployment has not taken precedence of many measures on the statutebook of the Commonwealth.

page 4872

POSTPONEMENT OF BUSINESS

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I am under a pledge to give those who have private business on the paper an opportunity to have it discussed. I therefore move -

That the remaining Government business be postponed until after the consideration of private members’ business.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

– I should like to know the intention of the Government with regard to sitting to-night. We have been here since yesterday morning, and I do not think it is fair to ask honorable members to remain here while the Senate is completing the business. It would be far better for us to go home now and return to-morrow. .

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I am authorized to say that, in all likelihood, the whole of the business in another place will be completed in about an hour, and we shall then be able to close the work of the session before entering on a new day. Further, I should like to have the pleasure of accompanying honorable members upstairs before we part ; and I appeal to their good nature and endurance to make a good finish.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4872

PEARL-SHELLING INDUSTRY

Debate resumed from 9th November (vide page 2431), on motion by Mr. Bamford -

That a Royal Commission selected from members of this Parliament be appointed to take into consideration all matters pertaining to the employment of white and coloured labour now, and to be, employed in the Australian pearl-shelling industry, and in respect of the general conditions under which such industry is now conducted.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- The honorable member for Herbert, who is absent, asked me to state that he does not expect this motion to be dealt with to-night. At his further request, I move -

That the debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to; debate adjourned.

page 4872

ROYAL COMMISSION ON POSTAL SERVICES

Debate resumed from 10th November (vide page 2530), on motion by Mr. Webster -

That, in the best interest of the public and of the Commonwealth Postal Service, the report of the Royal Commission on Postal Services should (in a general sense) be adopted by this House.

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

.- I see that I secured the adjournment of the debate, and I should have liked to discuss a motion which deals with so important a subject. Since, however, there is a general desire to come to a vote, I shall waive my right to speak.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I have no objection to a vote being taken on this motion, on the understanding that, if it be carried, it does not commit the Government to the establishment of a board.

Mr Webster:

– That is understood.

Mr FISHER:

– Generally speaking, I have no objection to the motion or to a division being taken now.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

– I have not the least objection to a division being taken when the motion has been debated. Up to the present, however, the case has only been stated by the mover, and several honorable members on this side hold strong views in regard to it. I take it that even the honorable member for Wimmera does not think that he has addressed himself to the question.

Mr Sampson:

– I understood there was to be no further discussion, but that we were to come to a vote at once.

Mr DEAKIN:

– That is impossible. Portions of the report of the Postal Commission have been given effect to, and others ought to be given effect to ; but there are recommendations to which exception can be taken, or to which some qualification should be attached. This motion covers such a wide area, and affects so many people, that we ought not to deal with it in this offhand manner. It would be meaningless if carried, because it would not bind anybody, or have any effect. The case for the Postal Commission has been stated fully, and some criticism has been offered ; but it would be very unsatisfactory to pass the motion before honorable members have had an opportunity to discuss it. I suggest to the honorable member for Gwydir that it would be well to postpone the consideration of the matter. I am quite aware that he claims that certain of the recommendations have been given effect to without recognition ; but that fact speaks more for the report than any mere verbal indorsement in the House. I should not like to vote against the motion, but I cannot vote for it at the present stage.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have to point out that any honorable member who speaks now must be taken to have addressed himself to the question.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I was merely asking the honorable member for Gwydir to postpone the consideration of the question.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- I hope the honorable member for Gwydir will not press this motion to a division now. A few weeks ago he made a lengthy - perhaps, rather too lengthy - statement in regard to it. Had he condensed his remarks and given us the benefit of his vast experience in postal matters, we might have been able to grip the situation more effectually. I should not like to take the responsibility of voting for this motion after so little discussion, nor should I like to vote against it. The reservation by the Prime Minister may mean something, or it may mean nothing; and I hope that the honorable member for Gwydir will consent to a postponement.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.-I too, ask the honorable member for Gwydir to consent to an adjournment. I take it that the honorable member is willing ; and, therefore, I move -

That the debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to ; debate adjourned.

page 4873

QUESTION

MR. A. BLACK : LOSS OF LETTERS

Debate resumed from 16th November (vide page 2761), on motion By Mr. Higgs -

That, in the opinion of this House, Mr. Alexander Black, of Bundaberg, should receive full compensation for the loss sustained by him through the misdelivery of a letter containing two post-office orders totalling the sum of £30 16s. 8d.

That this House recommends to the urgent consideration of the PostmasterGeneral the adoption of an identification certificate as a means of providing against future losses of a character similar to the foregoing.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I shall be disposed to fall in with that view in exactly three minutes’ time. It will be remembered that this motion deals with the case of a man who lost £30 16s. 8d. through postal orders addressed to him being given to some other person. The Department admitted having lost the money, but the Commonwealth disclaims all responsibility. There are many cases throughout the Commonwealth in which people have really been robbed ; and there ought to be some system to protect those to whom money orders are sent. I submit that the following forms of declaration might be adopted -

I hope the Postmaster-General willtake this matter into consideration, and that the

Prime Minister may see his way clear to pay money lost through the proved misdelivery of letters.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Watkins) adjourned.

page 4874

SIGNING OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLES

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I move -

That this House is of the opinion that the definition of all newspapers must carry with it the necessity of all leading and special articles being signed by the writers thereof.

If the motion be agreed to, it will give effect to the opinion of one of the greatest beings who ever did honour to Australia by living in it, the late Chief Justice Higginbotham, a statesman revered throughout the length and breadth of the land, who, as editor of the Argus, made a name that will long be remembered, and who, as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, was without stain or reproach. In his view, every leading article in a newspaper should be signed, and if effect is given to that view, it will herald a new era for journalists, whose names, now known only to their fellow newspaper men, will become household words in the mouths of the general public. Newspaper readers will then know who write the articles which meet with their approval. A column of the mighty Argus, headed with the name of Mr,. Donald McDonald, is keenly scanned by youths and boys, because they know that everything he writes is worth reading, and when that great genius, Frank Myers, wrote under the pen name of “ Telemachus, “ his articles excited so much curiosity that the people discovered his identity, and his name is now widely known. It is hard, however, that only the Himalayas of the journalistic world should be known to the public.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- I second the motion, but in view of the dis- cussion we have heard earlier in the day, and of the circumstances under which we are now dealing with business, I think that the question might be decided forthwith.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Greene) adjourned.

Remaining Orders of the Day and notices of motion, general business, postponed.

page 4874

APPROPRIATION BILL 1911-12

Bil] returned from the Senate without request.

Sitting suspended from 10.8 p.m. to

page 4874

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL 1909-10

Bill returned from the Senate without request.

page 4874

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1909-10

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4874

TELEGRAPHS AND TELEPHONES SPECIAL WORKS ACCOUNT BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4874

QUESTION

RUSSIAN IMMIGRANTS

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

. Yesterday, the Minister of External Affairs, speaking in connexion with immigration into the Northern Territory, said . that the Russian Consul-General had been informed by the Premier of Queensland that they did not need further immigrants from Russia. As the publication pf that statement might cause the impression that a reflection on the Russian people was intended, I telegraphed to the Queensland Premier asking him for a statement of the facts. He replied by the following telegram - .

Your wire current date. Thomas’ statement utterly without foundation. Had no communication whatever with Russian Consul on subject of Russian immigrants. So far from discouraging such immigrants have given special instructions for their reception in Immigrants’ Home. Yesterday I instructed Director of Labour to discuss with gentleman speaking Russian question of utilizing his services in connexion with the finding of employment for Russian immigrants not speaking English.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I understand that it will be some time before we receive the final messages from the Senate, and it is therefore my intention to leave the chair until ri o’clock.

Sitting suspended from 12.34. “.m. te 11 a.m. (Thursday).

page 4874

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– In the Age this morning it is reported that when the honorable member for Batman said he had no sympathy with the expulsion of Senator Findley from the State Parliament of Victoria, I interjected, “ You dare not.” I desire to explain that all I meant was that as the honorable member, for whom I have every respect, knew Senator Findley was innocent, he dare not have sympathy with the expulsion. It was in that sense only that I used the words. Then the Argus reports the honorable member for Batman as saying -

If any member said that no man should write for pay . an article in which he did not believe it was hypocrisy.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Who said that?

Mr brennan:

Dr. Maloney did.

The word used by the honorable member for Batman was “ prostitution,” but I have never used it in regard to writers who have to express views which are not those they hold. He and myself have had a conversation, and the honorable member agrees that I never so expressed myself in the House. Knowing the hard life of the average journalist, and the difficult task he has in making both ends meet, I should be the last to so speak of him when he writes what he is told to write.

page 4875

RUSSIAN IMMIGRANTS

Personal Explanation

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

– -The honorable member for Moreton stated that he had sent a telegram’ to the Premier of Queensland, informing him that I had said that that gentleman had told the Russian Consul that Queensland did not desire any more Russian imrnigrants.

Mr Sinclair:

– I said I had sent a wire asking for the facts.

Mr THOMAS:

– The statement the honorable member made was that I had said the Premier of Queensland had spoken to that effect to the Russian Consul.

Mr Sinclair:

– Yes.

Mr THOMAS:

– And that the reply to the telegram was as follows -

Your wire current date. Thomas’ statement utterly without foundation. Had no communication whatever with Russian Consul on subject of Russian immigrants. So far from discouraging such immigrants, have given special instructions for their reception in immigrants’ home. Yesterday I instructed Director of Labour to discuss with gentleman speaking Russian question of utilizing his services in connexion with the finding of employment for Russian immigrants not speaking English.

I find on referring to the Hansard report that I said -

Some little time ago a number of Russians, fine stalwart men, came on their own account to Queensland, and the Government of that State notified the Russian Consul that all the room in thedeportswas required for British immigrants.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Did the Queensland Premier not deny that statement?

Mr THOMAS:

– He did not deny what I am now saying. I saw from the newspapers that the Premier had been asked to subsidize the immigration of Russians, but that he had replied that he was prepared to spend the money in introducing English people.

I did not say that the Premier of Queensland had notified the Russian Consul that he did not desire any Russian immigrants. My statement referred to the fact that a Vice-Consul of Russia had told me that an official of the Government of Queensland - I presume the officer in charge of immigration - had told him that thedepots in Queensland were occupied by immigrants from Great Britain, and asked him to prevent any more immigrants from Siberia coming. That statement appeared in the newspapers, and was not denied by the Premier of Queensland. He was, however, reported to have stated that be had been asked on more than one occasion to subsidize Russian immigration, but that he was not prepared to do that, because the money he had in hand he was. devoting to British immigration. I find I never said that the Premier of Queensland personally made any statement to the Vice-Consul. The person I had in my mind at the time was some officer representing the Government of Queensland, such as the immigration officer.

Mr Sinclair:

– Did the Minister of External Affairs not emphasize the statement by saying that he had taken up the matter on behalf of the Russians, and proposed to send two of them to inspect the Northern Territory ?

Mr THOMAS:

– I never for a moment; said that the Premier personally had made such a statement as that which I am supposed to have attributed to him.

page 4875

QUESTION

MR. R. SHANKLAND

Mr ROBERTS:
ALP

– The honorable member for Went worth gave notice of the following questions for the 15th December: -

  1. What record had R. Shankland of “A”

Battery (Permanent Field Battery, New South Wales), on service in South Africa during the Transvaal war?

  1. Was R. Shankland afterwards refused per- mission to re-engage in. “A” Battery?
  2. If R. Shankland’s services were dispensed with, why were they dispensed with?
  3. Was R. Shankland informed why his services were dispensed with?
  4. If so, when was he so informed?

The following are the replies : -

  1. Generally good.
  2. Yes.
  3. 4, and 5. R. Shankland was not re-engaged on completion of his second term of limited engagement on the 12th April, 1902. It appears that there was a charge of insubordination against him at the time, and this course was decided upon in preference to requiring him to appear before a Court Martial.

page 4876

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL : PORT

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– Earlier in the week the honorable member for Maribyrnong asked the following question: -

Is it a fact that Bateman’s Bay is nearer to the Federal Capital site than Jervis Bay ? If this is so, for what reason was Jervis Bay selected in preference to Bateman’s Bay as the port of the Federal Capital ?

The following is the answer : -

The distance direct from the Federal Capital site to Bateman’s Bay is about 70 miles; to Jervis Bay about 90 miles. Jervis Bay was selected owing to its unique advantages for harbor purposes.

page 4876

QUESTION

MAIL BRANCH: BRISBANE

Mr FRAZER:
ALP

– On the 13th December, the honorable member for Brisbane asked -

  1. What are hours of duty in the. Mail Branch, General Post Office, Brisbane?
  2. In the case of the officers who come on duty at midnight, how many hours’ duty have they to perform to complete a day’s work?
  3. Are the same number of hours applicable to each night, including Saturday?

The answers are : -

The Deputy Postmaster-General, Brisbane, has furnished the following information, viz. : -

The staff hours of the Mail Branch, Brisbane are as follows: - Morning staff, 6 a.m. to 1 p.m. ; afternoon staff, 1 p.m. to 9.30 p.m., or later in emergency; night staff, 11 p.m. to 6 a.m., except Saturday, when duty commences at 11 p.m. and continues until 7.30 a.m. Sunday, which it has been decided to alter from Saturday midnight to 7.30 a.m. Sunday. On Saturday morning the staff go off at midday, when the afternoon staff come on, leaving at 2.30 p.m., if the work is well up, resuming again at 6.15 till finish. Three men are brought in at 1 p.m. and leave for good at 6 p.m. 2 and 3. The night duty is seven hours, with half-an-hour off for refreshment. SaturdaySunday eight and a half hours, now altered to seven and a half hours, with half-an-hour off for refreshment. Officers on the despatch side exceed this on Sunday by twenty or thirty minutes owing to departure of Sydney mail train.

page 4876

INSCRIBED STOCK BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4876

LOAN BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4876

CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL

Bill returned from the Senate with the message that the Senate did not press the request with which the House of Representatives had not complied, and had agreed to the modifications of its other requests.

page 4876

AUSTRALIAN NOTES BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4876

PUBLIC SERVICE BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4876

OLD-AGE PENSIONS APPROPRIATION BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 4876

ELECTORAL BILL

Bill returned from the Senate with a message intimating that the Senate had agreed to all the amendments made by the House of Representatives, with the exception of one, to which it had agreed with the transposition of the words “ House of Representatives” and “Senate.”

Message taken into consideration in Committee forthwith and amendment agreed to.

page 4876

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE: GENERAL DIVISION SALARIES

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The honorable member for Gwydir has given notice of the following questions -

  1. When did the additional salaries granted to officers of the General Division of the Public Service become due?
  2. Will such increases be paid from the due date?
  3. Is money provided on the Estimates for the payment of the increments due, and for the increased salaries granted to the General Division?
  4. Can he say whether such amounts will be paid before Christmas?

The following replies have been furnished -

  1. 1st January and 1st March, 1911 (dates of new gradings).
  2. Have, already been paid as from those dates.
  3. Yes.
  4. See answer to No. 2.

page 4876

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Wednesday next.

page 4877

PAPERS

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the table the following paper : -

Library Committee (Joint).- Report for year 1911.

MINISTERS laid upon the table-

Northern Territory. - Report of the Government Resident for year 1910.

Papua. - Report for year 1910-11.

Ordered to be printed.

Defence Act - Regulations Amended (Provisional) -

Military Forces -

No. 418 - Statutory Rules 191 1, No. 208.

No. 34 - Statutory Rules 191 1, No. 206.

Financial and Allowance -

No. 84 (e) - Statutory Rules 1911, No. 209.

Nos. 258-272 - Statutory Rules 191 1, No. 205.

Naval Defence Act - Regulations Amended (Provisional) - Nos. 101-2 - Statutory Rules 1911, No. 207.

page 4877

ADJOURNMENT

Close or Session - Duration of Recess - Wireless Installations - Labour Conditions in the Sugar Industry - Export Duty on Ores - Postal Commission’s Report - Duties on Motor Bodies - Services of Officers - Tariff Reform - Queensland Immigration - Reciprocity between Commonwealth and State Parliaments.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I move -

That the House do now adjourn.

Happily we have come to the close of a rather strenuous session, and I wish, as the representative of the Government, to thank honorable members on both sides for the way in which they have attended to their duties, and the good temper that has prevailed. In the heat of political controversy most of us forget ourselves at times, but it stands to the record of the members of the National Parliament that they have ever carried out their public duties with fitting decorum, and in such a way as to prove themselves a credit to the people whom they have the honour to represent. I make that statement with some pleasure, not by way of contrast with other Parliaments, but simply to emphasize the fact that the standard of parliamentary procedure has happily, with very rare exceptions, been all that could be desired. The good feeling that has prevailed,and the good work that has been done since the inauguration of the Federal Parliament, has been greatly aided by the officers whom we have had to assist both sides in this House. We have been specially fortunate in the Presiding Officers, who have been called upon to protect the interests of every member, and to see that the procedure was carried on in regular order. You, sir, who have the privilege and honour of presiding over this branch of the Parliament, will agree with me when I say that you are ably assisted by the officers who serve under you. It is my duty now not only to offer you congratulations, but to include in that expression the officers who have so assiduously and capably carried out the duties allotted to them. I trust that this Parliament will long be favoured in the same way. I should like, on this, the first opportunity that I have had to speak in this connexion, to make special reference to a branch of the officers of Parliament who stand somewhat apart from the ordinary system. I refer to the gentlemen who compile the official reports of the debates and proceedings of this Parliament. . I do not hesitate to say that no other Parliament is so fortunate in this respect as we are, and I hope that all future Parliaments will be as fortunate, in the gentlemen who are engaged in making a true and faithful record of what is said and done in the two Chambers of this Legislature. I venture to say that I am speaking for every honorable member of this House, and indeed for the whole Parliament when I utter these words.

Honorable Members. - Hear, hear !

Mr FISHER:

– They are gentlemen who do not intrude upon us in any way, save with the object of endeavouring to faithfully carry out the onerous and difficult duties that are cast upon them. I wish now to express regret at the absence, owing to illness, of the Clerk of the House, Mr. Duffy. I shall convey to him the hope of honorable members that his enforced absence will lead to his speedy recovery and return to the duties of his office. Although an enormous amount of work has not been done this session, I think that that which we have accomplished, apart from controversial matters, will have far-reaching effects, and prove beneficial to Australia. I feel, above everything else, that the trend of Australian thought is in a truly national direction, and that what were previously little rivulets, each running in its own way, are now uniting. into: a great stream of thought, which must lead to the development of truly national ideals. Happily, we have of recent years enjoyed unexampled prosperity, and we hope that it will increase and continue. It will be the duty of this Parliament, as well as of the Parliaments of the States, to do all that can be done by legislation and administration to assist in the continuance of the prosperity as long as nature is bounteous, and to be watchful of the time when the seasons may be less propitious. I do not wish to trespass further on the kindness and consideration of the House, except to wish you, sir, honorable members, and the officers a very merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Honorable members will be called together next session earlier than in previous years - probably well before the end of the financial year - and I sincerely trust that they will return greatly invigorated as the result of the recess, and ready to perform their onerous duties in the best interests of Australia and the Mother Country, to whom we are proud to owe allegiance.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– In the absence of the Leader of the Opposition, I take this opportunity, on behalf of honorable members on this side of the House, of joining in the felicitations of the Prime Minister upon the termination of the session. We have every reason to be pleased, if not thankful, that we have been able to get through our work in time to enable us to return to our respective homes before Christmas without the spectre of having to return immediately after the New Year holidays to our legislative duties. It is to be regretted that in the closing days of the session we have had to work at such high pressure, and during such long hours. Those, however, are but some of the incidents of parliamentary life which are entirely unavoidable. It seems to be the practice of Parliament to indulge in a fair amount of talking at the beginning of the session, and that necessarily contracts the opportunity for detailed work towards the close of the session. The Opposition has felt it to be its duty to oppose a considerable number of the proposals submitted by the Government during the session, but notwithstanding their opposition these have been carried. It is not for us at this time to criticise the work done. That work has passed into history, and it will be for the people, as the result of experience, to say whether or not a considerable proportion of that of which we disapproved has been as successful as its promoters hoped it would be. I join with the Prime Minister in congratulating you, Mr. Speaker, upon the termination of the session, and in’ expressing appreciation of the efforts of the various officers of the House to assist irk the great work of preparing legislation. We certainly owe our thanks to the Clerk of the House and the Clerk Assistant. We particularly sympathize with Mr. Duffy iri the serious illness that has overtaken him,, and hope that at the beginning of next session he will be restored to health and find* his place once more at the Clerk’s table. I desire to join with the Prime Minister inexpressing unqualified admiration of the work .of our Hansard staff. As an old shorthand writer and reporter, I feel justified in saying that I do not believe there is a shorthand staff in the world to excel our Hansard staff in accuracy, as well as in. general swiftness of execution. I often feel a sense of sorrow at the way in which the Hansard staff is overworked, especially during an all-night sitting, and of wonder that their powers of endurance should be so great as to enable them to see their labours through. We ought not to forget to recognise in some form the great ability of the Chief of the Hansard staff,. Mr. Friend, his courtesy and attention to honorable members from time totime, in drawing «their attention to little matters, and the splendid manner in whichHansard as a whole is edited and published. As to whether its voluminous pages, so well and splendidly reported, are adequately read, I am not at all sure.

Mr King O’Malley:

– It will come.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– It may be that some future historian in wading through the pages of Hansard will occasionally come across some gem of political thought that will enable him to follow the trend of our legislation and the way in which we have legislated. As to the trend of our “legislation generally, I think that we ought in all our efforts to recognise the ideal of the Constitution, and not in any way to violate its fundamental principles or its general tendencies as outlined by the law and approved by the people. There must be differences of opinion as to the best and’ most efficient methods for realizing our ideals, but both Ministerialists and Oppositionists are animated by the sincere desireto promote the true welfare of the country. It is a matter for congratulation that, although in the last as in previous sessions, we have strenuously fought for our political ideals, there has not been any appreciable display of enduring enmity.

Mr King O’Malley:

– Why should there be?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I think that there should not be. I should be sorry if feeling such as has manifested itself elsewhere were displayed in this Parliament. We believe in straight-out fighting. If the fortunes of war have been against us, we must yield to the inevitable, hoping that the time will come when we shall again be on top.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I want on this, the last day of the session, to make my protest against the long hours which have to be worked by the splendid staff which reports our proceedings. When this House is not sitting, the Senate often sits, and the reporters, having finished their turns here, have to continue their labours in another place. At ordinary times the staff is not undermanned, but when the sittings of both Houses are prolonged, as on occasions like this, it is undermanned, and the work becomes very heavy. We must all indorse the encomium of the Prime Minister. I find that the policemen in the buildings, who are supposed to be on duty for only eight hours at a stretch, have to work longer on occasions like this. I hope that the Prime Minister will take the matter into his consideration, and see whether something can be done. to shorten the hours of the Hansard staff, of the staff attending in the refreshment rooms, and of the guardians of the law. The small Tariff Bill which we recently had under consideration provided merely for the rectification of anomalies, and was introduced chiefly to facilitate its administration, but it will be a great disappointment to me if a good Tariff is not placed before us next session. I hope that during the recess Ministers will take into consideration the advisability of introducing a really up-to-date Protectionist Tariff.

Mr J H Catts:

– After the election.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– No ; before. If we had a Tariff equalling the up-to-date Tariffs of the United States, Japan, and Germany, I, as a thorough-going Protectionist, would be well content.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.The Prime Minister says that “ happily “ we have come to the end of the session, and I join with him in the felicitation, though in my judgment we have arrived at the end in a rather unhappy fashion. Business has been so forced through of late, that the result has been largely the determination of the Executive rather than that of the Parliament.

Mr Thomas:

– Does the honorable member speak on behalf of the country party?

Mr PALMER:

– As the sole representative of that party. We who sit in this corner nourish no feeling of resentment against Ministers. They were returned with a majority to carry out a certain policy, and we have no right to object to them doing so. At the last election, the people determined to give the Labour party a fair trial, an opportunity to demonstrate what it could do. The party is in an absolute majority in both Chambers, and it has had a fair trial during a period of more than eighteen months, but I am sure that the results have created regret in the minds of those who put it in power, because the trend of its legislation is not on the whole in the interests of the Commonwealth. We look forward to the coming session with a good deal of interest. Ministers have another twelve months in which to justify the people’s choice. If, on the contrary, they trifle with the liberties of the people, and tamper with the finances, they will lose the confidence of the electors. I wish all and sundry, including the officers of the House, a right happy Christmas, and express, the hope that next session Parliament may be afforded the time to duly consider important measures, instead of having them forced through at the risk of health, and at the sacrifice of that good feeling incidental to longcontinued sittings.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– I should like to know from the Minister of Trade and Customs the exact position in regard to the duties on motor bodies ? There seems to be a certain amount of apprehension or misapprehension, owing to the alteration made by the Senate in this particular item.

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– This matter has already been mentioned privately to me this morning by the honorable member for Melbourne. In the old Tariff, which was in operation until about three weeks ago, motor bodies were dutiable at 35 and 30 per cent. ; but when the Tariff went to another place, they were dutiable at £24. 10s. and £21, according to the country of origin, or 35 and 30 per cent., whichever were the higher rates of duty. The Senate requested that there should be three rates of duty, namely, single-seated bodies at£17 and£15, double-seated bodies at £24 10s. and £21, and bodies with fixed or movable canopy tops, such as the landaulette, the limousine, and taxi-cabs, and bodies, n.e.i, each, £42 and £36. In the case of the lower-valued bodies the duty of £24 ros. and £21, as agreed to by this House, would have meant 80 to 100 per cent., and, in some cases, 150 per cent. I am given to understand by the trade that the rates which have been fixed will more than equal an ad valorem duty of 35 and 30 per cent. So far as the higher-priced cars are concerned, the bodies of which are dutiable at £42 and £36, the effect will be much the same as if the duty of 35 and 30 per cent, had remained. Motor bodies are valued up to £150 or more, but the duty is based on the value at the port of shipment. Thus, a motor body worth £100 when put on board, may, after paying freight, duty, and inland charges, be worth more than £150 here; and the fixed rates will, I feel confident, give a greater amount of protection than the duties originally proposed.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There are two other items in the Tariff-

Mr SPEAKER:

– I cannot allow a discussion on the Tariff. I have permitted some little latitude in the way of asking questions ; but if a discussion on the Tariff promises to develop, I must stop it.

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not desire to raise any discussion, but merely to ask the Minister if he has any explanation to offer in regard to two items which I understood would be dealt with in the Senate.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

– I suggest to the Minister of Home Affairs that he provide the Commonwealth offices in Sydney with copies of Quick and Garran, and the reports of the debates of the Federal Conventions. In the recess, representatives of New South Wales cannot, of course, avail themselves of the Parliamentary Library and the Commonwealth records; and, as some constitutional questions will probably be raised next session, there is a desire on the part of some of us to study such literature as I have indicated.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– The answer is, yes.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– I was pleased to hear the Minister of External Affairs offer the explanation he did in regard to his remarks the other evening on immigration. If my action in bringing this matter under the notice of the Queensland Premier has assisted to clear away some misconception, I shall not regret taking the step I did. To show the reasonableness of my inference, I may be allowed to read the following extract from the Minister’s remarks, as reported in Hansard : -

A little while ago some Russians, who intended to go to Queensland, were apparently told that Queensland had no room for them at that moment. I then announced that if two of them would go to the Northern Territory to spy out the land, arrangements would be made to give them every facility to do so.

That is not the only occasion on which this matter has been referred to; and, though the Minister may not have so intended, the impression conveyed was that there is some discrimination made between Russian and other immigrants. The Queensland Government spend, I think £70,000 annually in promoting immigration. The whole of that amount was absorbed last year, and the Government were compelled to refuse 700 odd applications to introduce nominated immigrants. The reason was not that Queensland did not desire the class of immigrants who offered, but the vote was exhausted, and it must be admitted that £70,000 per annum is a substantial sum for a State like Queensland to spend in this direction. Now that the matter has been cleared up by the Minister of External Affairs, I have no wish to pursue it further. I sincerely thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the seasonable greetings that you have been kind enough to send us, and assure you that we reciprocate them most heartily. I am pleased to know that the feeling of members of this Chamber is one of peace and goodwill towards each other.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– I have reason to be rather pleased with with what has been done in many directions during the session, but while some wrongs have been righted, and others have been considered, and the lot of a number of people has been made better by the efforts put forward by this Parliament, I must still urge the Government to consider during the recess the recommendation of the Postal Commission for the creation of a board of management for the Postmaster-General’s Department. I do not like to see Ministers get rusty, and that question is well calculated to occupy their spare moments with advantage to themselves and to the country. Do what we may, and fight as we may against it, something of the kind is inevitable in that great Department. I have no complaint to make, and never have had, as to the relations between our party and the Opposition, but never in my political career have I been insulted by one of my own party until this session. That sort of thing does not reflect much credit on those who are responsible for it. They may think it very clever to get into the press something that can be used against a comrade, but we should not forget our comradeship so far as to put on record things which honorable members must know will be faithfully recorded by those who are watching the interests of the other side. I make these observations, not so much in reply to the statement in question, as in reply to the publicity that has been given to it to my injury. 1 need scarcely add that the statement is untrue, and unworthy of any member of this Parliament.

Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle

– I wish to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs if the. Cabinet hasyet considered the request of the big deputation in Sydney with respect to an export duty on ores that might be treated here?

Mr HIGGS:
Capriconia

– I desire to wish you, sir, the Chairman of Committees, members of the House, and members of the Hansard staff a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. I trust that we shall not overlook another very important section of gentlemen who come to this House - I refer to the gentlemen of the press. Although I have had a hard battle with them, and have not escaped without some scars, I assure them that it is my wish, and the wish of my comrades, that they and their families should enjoy every good fortune. Perhaps I have given you, sir, some trouble during this and the previous session, and I am afraid that I have given some to the Chairman of Committees, but I wish to thank you and him for being so lenient with me and overlooking faults which, at the hands of others, might have received more drastic treatment.

Mr CHANTER:
Riverina

– I join in the felicitations to yourself, the Chairman of Committees, the Hansard staff, and the general staff of the building, and hope that they will have a very merry Christmas and a prosperous New

Year. I rose particularly to refer to the request of the honorable member for Cook that provision should be made in the quarters set apart for Commonwealth members in Sydney for the supply of volumes of Quick and Garran, Hansard, and other Parliamentary reports. The accommodation there is exceedingly limited, and there is no room for anything like a library. The ex-members and the members of the State Parliament are entitled to access to pur Library and to other privileges. I am not sure if the members of the Federal Parliament have the same privileges in the State Parliaments. If they have not, will the Prime Minister communicate with the Premier of New South Wales, asking him to extend them to us.

Mr Fisher:

– You have them now.

Mr CHANTER:

– I am not sure that we have.

Mr SPEAKER:

– In all the States the members of this Parliament have the same liberties with regard to the Library and other parts of the State Parliaments.

Mr CHANTER:

-I am pleased to hear it, but am told by an ex-member of the New South Wales Parliament that the members of the Federal Parliament have not full privileges there. They may go into the Library and take notes from any book, but they are hot allowed to take books out of the Library. I am sure reciprocal feelings will be engendered if the authorities of the New South Wales Parliament extend to members of this Parliament the same privileges as are extended to exmembers of the State Parliament and, as we extend to them in this Parliament.

Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert

.- I wish to take advantage of this opportunity, which is the last I shall have this session, to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Customs. During the early part of this year there was a somewhat serious industrial trouble in North Queensland. It was generally termed a strike, but I wish to place on record the fact that it was not a strike. I have here the Concise Oxford Dictionary, from which I quote the following definition of a strike : -

Strike - Cease (work), cease work (of workmen), refuse to go on working unless employer accedes to some demand for higher pay, against long hours, &c.

It is clear that in order that an industrial disturbance may be properly described as a strike, men who are at work should knock off work unless their employer concedes some demand for shorter hours, higher wages, and so on. The industrial trouble in North Queensland was therefore not a strike, because the men had not gone to work, and refused to go to work for the terms offered. There were some reasons for believing that during the currency of last season, and before the commencement of next season, fresh regulations would be issued by the Customs Department, laying down the conditions of work in the canefields. I have no authority for the statement, but I talked the matter over with the Minister of Trade and Customs, who said that he would take it into consideration, and I left him under the impression that the conditions would be better in the future than they have been. The industrial trouble resulted in the establishment of better conditions for the men in the mills, but these did not apply to the men in the fields. I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether he has given the matter further consideration, and has come to any determination in regard to making the conditions of labour in the canefields better for the -workers in the future than they have been in the past.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I wish to ask a question of the Postmaster-General. I understand that the Government have ordered five wireless installations of the Shoemaker type. I ask for information on the subject, because the Shoemaker system has been declared invalid at Home. I feel perfectly satisfied that the Government will get into serious trouble in connexion with this question of wireless telegraphy.

Mr. PARKER MOLONEY (Indi) £12.4]. - While we are indulging in mutual felicitations upon the fact that we are about to enter upon a recess, which I am pleased to hear will not be as lengthy as the last, I desire to say that I hope that the PostmasterGeneral, as a country member, will not forget the people of the back districts. I hope he will redeem his promise to carefully consider ‘the matter of extending the postal, telegraphic, and telephonic facilities of the residents of country districts. A? a representative of a country electorate, I felt that I could not permit the session to close without requesting the Postmaster - General to do something more than has been done in the past in the way of providing the people of country districts with facilities which might make all the difference between isolation and civilization. I should like to get a more definite statement from the Prime Minister as to the length of the approaching recess* I hope it will be brought to a close earlier than the end of June.

Mr Fisher:

– Before the end of the financial year, subject, of course, to His Excellency the Governor-General.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– I am pleased to hear that it will be brought to a close before the end of the financial year. I wish now to express the opinion that the work of the session just concluded is work of which we have a right to be proud. Though’ I notice that in a certain quarter it is spoken of as a poor record, I am satisfied that any unbiased person will admit that the session has been as fruitful as the first session of this Parliament. I hope our work will be attended with the best results to the people. If there be anything at which I think we might cavil in connexion with the work of this session, it is that our revision of the Tariff was not as extensive as it might have been. I appeal to the Minister of Trade and Customs, who no one will deny is a staunch Protectionist, to do what is possible to bring, about a more complete revision of the Tariff next year in keeping with, the requirements of the people.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– If I thought that honorable members would bear with me for some time I might be disposed to go over the remarkable episodes of this session.

Mr Carr:

– We do not wish to hear of them.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I feel that that may possibly be the wish of the majority of honorable members present, and therefore I will content myself with joining in the felicitations that have passed, and in expressing the hope that with’ respect to you. sir, and other members, your shadows will not grow less during the recess.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

– I should not have spoken but for the remarks which have been made by the honorable member for Gwydir. I should not like to leave the Chamber to-day with any ill-feeling toward any member of this House. I regret that the honorable member for Gwydir should have taken umbrage at anything I have said. In heated moments we do not remember that what we are saying will appear in Hansard. I regret if any statement of mine has offended my honorable friend, who is a man for whom I have always had a great respect. He seemed to be very snappy about an interjection of mine which was not premeditated, and was made without any thought of offence. 1 regret it, and I hope that the honorable member and myself will be good friends for the future.

Mr Cann:

– I should like to move “ that the question be now put.”

Mr Tudor:

– By permission of the House, I should like to reply to one or two questions that have been put, although I have previously spoken.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have allowed ample discussion, and think that the Minister of Trade and Customs might furnish the replies privately. I should like to say to the Prime Minister, to the honorable member for Bendigo, and to others who have been so kind as to express their feelings concerning the officers of the House and myself, that we appreciate the remarks which have been made from all quarters. I can only say on behalf of the staff that since I have occupied my present position the whole of the officers have been exceedingly good. I have never had any cause to complain in any way whatever concerning the manner in which their duties have been discharged. The work has been done in a most satisfactory maimer, reflecting credit upon those who have been responsible for it, as well as upon Parliament generally. I wish to express my deep regret that the Clerk of the House, Mr. C. Gavan Duffy, was incapacitated by illness during the session. I saw him a few days ago, and am glad to say that he was able to assure me that his medical advisers bad stated that he was on the mend. It is probable that when the next session commences, we shall see Mr. Duffy in his place, and I hope that he will be in the best of health. I am extremely sorry that he has been so ill, and trust that the holiday which he is about to take will fully restore him to that full state of health which is so necessary to enable an officer of this House to carry out the work required of him. With regard to the Hansard staff, the Clerk Assistant, and others, they have all carried out their duties most admirably. I desire to thank them sincerely for the maimer in which they have discharged their functions, and for assistance rendered to me in carrying out my own duties during the past session. The session that is just about to conclude has been the quietest and most peaceful one that I have known since I have been a member . of the Federal Parliament. I again thank honorable members most sincerely for the assistance they have given to mie, and on behalf of the officers and myself, I wish al l a very merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

– I also wish to thank honorable members for the kind references which have been made to me to-day. My thanks ‘ are due to honorable members on all sides for the way in which they have assisted me to discharge my duties as Chairman of Committees during this strenuous session. I have to thank the officers who have on all occasions ren-dereel me assistance. I trust that all,, officers and members alike, will have a very, happy Christmas, and that we shall have the pleasure of meeting again invigorated as a result of our holiday, and fully, equipped to carry on the work of nextsession, which will complete the three years strenuous work of the present Parliaments

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– My honorable colleague the Minister of Trade and Customs, not being able’ to speak again on this motion, has asked me to say in reply, to the question of the honorable member; for New England, that the Senate was no* able to deal with the matter to which he has referred, because it was not contained in the Bill. The question of the export of ores referred to by the honorable menu ber for Newcastle is still under consideration. A question was asked by the honorable member for Herbert with regard to the wages of sugar workers. . He regarded this as a matter of urgency.. The Government fee] that until the report of the Sugar Commission is received this question ought not to be dealt with’., The Royal Commission is taking very important evidence, and will furnish a report without delay, and there will . be no> unnecessary delay in considering the ques* tion afterwards. The honorable member, for Melbourne asked a question regarding, the Tariff. That is a matter of Ministerial policy, but the present is hardly the time for dealing with’ it. It will be considered. The question asked by the honorable member for Riverina regarding reciprocity between members of the State Parliaments and of the Commonwealth Parliament hasbeen dealt with fully by Mr. Speaker., I understand that there are some defectsin existing arrangements, but this Government desires to co-operate - in all SUCh matters in the promotion of reciprocity. The Government are anxious to work with the State Governments and State members of Parliament wherever possible. Of course we understand that rules have to be made by State Governments to guard their own properties. Subject to these rules, however, there ought to be full co-operation in regard to the matters that have been mentioned. As to the question raised by the honorable member for Macquarie, concerning the purchase Of material for wireless telegraphy, I wish to say, with the greatest respect for that honorable member and others, that I advise the exercise of a little patience on the subject. I venture to say that they will not regret it. The question raised by the honorable member for Indi has been dealt with. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports appeared to have something to say of considerable importance, but owing to present circumstances would not let us know what was on his mind. I again express my hearty thanks to honorable members, and my hope that all. of them will enjoy good health during the recess, and will return invigorated when the next session opens. I trust also that the Opposition will return in vigorous health, able to devote themselves earnestly to the criticism of our measures and policy. The safety of a country in regard to legislation and administration, whether under a Labour or any other Government, depends very largely on effective criticism. I express again my thanks to all who have helped us to make this not only a successful but a happy session.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 12.20 p.m. (Thursday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 19 December 1911, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1911/19111219_reps_4_63/>.