House of Representatives
11 August 1910

4th Parliament · 1st Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 1419

QUESTION

KOOYONG LABOUR CANDIDATE’S PROGRAMME

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Has the Prime Minister seen the extraordinary promises of the Labour candidate for Kooyong, who is reported in this morning’s newspaper as having said, among other things, that he would propose . “the subsidizing of grand opera houses in the larger of the several capitals,” and the “ general use of the lightest wines that can be produced in the Commonwealth”? Is that part of the Government policy, and is the fact that a member of the Ministry was appearing in support of the candidate when these utterances were made to be taken as an indorsement of his proposals?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– No other person than myself will announce the policy of this Government.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Prime Minister has not answered my question. I wish to know whether, as Dr. Erson is the. accredited candidate of the party of which the honorable gentleman is the head, he indorses the promises made at the meeting last night, to which I have just called attention.

Mr FISHER:

– No Government would indorse everything said by candidates. God help a Government if it did that.

page 1419

QUESTION

EXAMINATION FEES

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to ask the Minister of Home Affairs whether the regulation referred to in his reply yesterday to a question asked by the honorable member for Parkes concerning examination fees for boys applying for the position of messenger, has been in existence for years, what was the reason for amending it, and what was the nature of the amendment?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– Regulation 222, as passed in 1903, required the imposition of fees at all examinations. Under the system, which has rapidly extended, of examination for promotion within the ranks of the Service, tests are frequently held to determine the fitness of officers for promotion from one position to another, or from a lower to a higher division of the Service, and as it is desirable to encourage officers to submit themselves to tests, it was thoughtadvisable that it should be left to the discretion of the Public Service Commissioner whether the fees in such cases should be waived or reduced. That was the effect of the notification of the 8th June last referred to by the honorable member for Parkes. I refer the honorable member also to a copy of a report by the Public Service Commissioner on the subject of examination fees which was laid upon the table of the House on the 3rd instant.

page 1419

QUESTION

TASMANIAN MAILS

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I desire to know from the Postmaster-General if he will provide for the quicker transport of mails from Melbourne to Hobart during the winter months?

Mr THOMAS:
Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– We have been endeavouring to do this, ever since the honorable member drew my attention to the matter, some months ago, and have not yet been able to make satisfactory” arrangements, but we hope that before next winter what is desired will be done. On 1st September, the steamers will commence running on the time-table for the summer months, and the mails will then be taken on from Launceston to Hobart at once by train.

page 1419

QUESTION

NORTH MELBOURNE POST OFFICE

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– I wish to know if a deadlock exists between the Department of Home Affairs and the City Council in 1420 Federal Capital.[REPRESENTATIVES.] Target Markers’ Fees. respect to the provision of increased accommodation at the North Melbourne Postoffice. If so, will the Minister make arrangements, if possible, to obtain accommodation elsewhere than in the Council’s premises?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The present post-office is in the municipal building, and the Commonwealth has been endeavouring to come to an arrangement with the City Council to rent two additional rooms init to remove the disabilities under which the public and the staff suffer; but so far the ideas of the Commonwealth and the City Council as to a fair rental for the rooms have been so very divergent that it has been impossible to arrive at a settlement. The matter is now under consideration, and shall have my urgent attention.

page 1420

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Second Proclamation - Competitive Designs

Mr FULLER:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to know from the Prime Minister if there has been further correspondence between him and the Premier of New South Wales regarding the issue of the second proclamation concerning the Federal Territory, and if so, whether he will lay it on the table and have it printed ?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I am unable to say at present, but shall let the honorable member know to-morrow.

Mr FULLER:

– Has the Prime Minister yet determined what legislation is necessary to be passed by this Parliament before the second proclamation in regard to the Federal Territory is issued? If so, does he propose to introduce and pass it this session?

Mr FISHER:

– The Government in- tend to pass some legislation through, and it will be introduced as early as possible this session.

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

  1. Whether he has called for competitive designs for the Federal Capital?
  2. What is the value of the prize to be given to the successful competitor?
  3. Will he give ample notice of the competition, and the conditions thereof?
  4. Will he restrict the competition to Aus tralian natives and Australian residents of at least five years’ residence in the Commonwealth?
Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Not yet.
  2. It has not been fixed.
  3. Ample notice will be given.
  4. The matter will be considered.

page 1420

QUESTION

TARGET MARKERS’ FEES

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

  1. What is the annual cost of wages of markers employed in connexion with ranges used by rifle clubs for target practice?
  2. In view of the fact that the majority of members of rifle clubs are working men who voluntarily devote their leisure to perfect themselves in rifle shooting for thedefence of their country, will the Minister for Defence consider the advisability of abolishing the fee to rifle clubs for markers’ services, and transfer the cost of the same to the Defence Department?
Mr FRAZER:
Minister (without portfolio) · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The information required will have to be obtained from the several States. The Minister will reply to the honorable member’s second query when he obtains the information referred to in No. 1.

page 1420

QUESTION

COMMERCIAL NEGOTIATIONS WITH FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Has he received, or has he in his Department, or is there in the Department of External Affairs, any recent communication from the Colonial Office setting out the extent to which the Imperial authorities now recognise the right of the Dominions to negotiate direct with foreign Governments in regard to commercial conventions, as was permitted ‘between Canada and France in 1907, but only recently made public?
  2. If such a communication is in existence, and has not yet been made public, will he lay it on the table of the House forthe information of honorable members, to enable them to ascertain whether the concession made to Canada is to be made to all the Dominions equally?
Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. A communication was recently received from the Colonial Office, forwarding a copy of House of Commons Paper No. 129, covering correspondence on the subject.
  2. That document is available in the Library, but I shall have no objection to moving for its inclusion among our Parliamentary Papers if honorable members so desire.

page 1421

PAPUAN APPOINTMENTS

Motion (by Mr. W. Elliot Johnson) agreed to -

That a return be laid upon the table of the House of all existing permanent appointments made in the Public Service of Papua since the inauguration of the Constitution, giving -

Names of appointees.

Date of appointment.

By whom appointed.

Nature of each appointment.

page 1421

PAPER

The Clerk laid upon the table the following paper: -

Pearl-shelling industry - Permits to coloured aliens - Return to an Order of the House, dated 13th July, 1910.

page 1421

QUESTION

OLD-AGE AND INVALID PENSIONS

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I move -

That this House is of opinion that old-age or invalid pensions accruing between the date of the last payment of the same and the death of the pensioner should be paid to the heir or heirs-at-law of the deceased.

My object is to draw attention to a serious injustice under which old-age pensioners are suffering at present. Section 15 of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act of 1908 provides that every person who has attained the age of sixty-five years, or who being permanently incapacitated for work, has attained the age of sixty years, shall, while in Australia, be qualified to receive an oldage pension. That section is not at present being operated upon in the Commonwealth. The old-age pensions are paid in arrears and not in advance, and the result is that if a man dies, say, thirteen days after the last payment, the Treasurer has failed to pay him thirteen days of pension to which, under the Act, he was entitled. If I were to move that the pensions be paid in advance a point of order would be immediately raised that I was seeking to impose an additional burden upon the taxpayers. Not being in the Government - thank Heaven ! - I should be entirely out of order in proceeding in that way. I have, therefore, had to take this step in order to ventilate this injustice under which old-age pensioners rest. I do not think it can be said that death is the fault of the pensioner, but if he dies, say, thirteen days after receiving his last payment, I think the least the Government can do in the circumstances is to pay the pension to which he was entitled to his heir or heirs-at-law. The diffi culty will, of course, be to find who are the heirs of the deceased. That is really the whole problem that confronts us.

Mr Chanter:

– What is the difficulty there? If there are any heirs they will make a claim.

Mr KELLY:

– The Prime Minister saw me in reference to the subject after I had given notice of the motion, and pointed out that his advices were that the cost of finding out the heirs of an old-age pensioner would be greater than the amount of pension which would have to be paid to them. After discussing the question with me .the Prime Minister said he was prepared to pay the pensions to the old-age pensioners in advance.

Mr Fisher:

– I did not say that. I said that they should be taken to be paid in advance, and that all future pensioners should come in on that basis. In other words, the pension is for the pensioner and for no other.

Mr KELLY:

– That seems rather rough on the present pensioners. I do not wish to put the Prime Minister in any false position because he was talking to me personally about these matters, and was perhaps not weighing his words, but I understood him to mean that the pensions were to be paid in advance.

Mr Fisher:

– They will all be treated as paid in advance.

Mr KELLY:

– Even if they are not?

Mr Fisher:

– And the other point is that the money is required by the law to be paid to the pensioner and not to his heirs or successors.

Mr KELLY:

– Then is the Prime Minister prepared to carry out section 15 of the principal Act, which, in effect, directs that while a pensioner lives he is entitled to a pension at the rate of 10s. per week? It is of no use considering him as having been paid in advance. In this matter I am ventilating a legitimate grievance of the oldage pensioners.

Mr Fisher:

– The cost of administration would be treble the amount that had to be paid.

Mr KELLY:

– I do not wish to propose any special course, and if the Prime Minister can point out a means whereby old-age pensioners can receive their rights under existing legislation I shall be satisfied ; but they are entitled to payment up to the date of death, and are not now getting it, because their fortnightly instalments are paid in arrears and not in advance.

Sir William Lyne:

– The Prime Minister said they are to be taken as paid. But if a pensioner died, the money actually due would be his, and it ought to be paid to somebody.

Mr KELLY:

– It is his money, and it ought to be paid. If the Prime Minister will see that the money is paid to some one, I do not care if the Department is given the power to decide, for instance, who are the heirs, not at law, but under this practice. The Prime Minister does not like that proposal?

Mr Fisher:

– I do not think we could decide that question.

Mr KELLY:

– In ventilating the subject, my whole desire is to see that the Treasury incurs no serious financial obligation other than those already imposed under the Old-age Pensions Act. I want the pensioners to receive the money to which they are entitled; I do not wish lawyers to obtain a certain amount in tracing the person or persons to whom these payments ought to be made. If the Prime Minister were to take the step of paying old-age pensions in advance, instead of in arrears, there would be no further objection to offer. In such circumstances he would be able to say - “ Every man has got on the average slightly more than that to which he is entitled.” If a man died thirteen days after the last fortnightly pay., he would have received one day’s payment more than that to which he was entitled. But at present the Commonwealth is, I think, suable by the relatives of every old-age pensioner who has died a few days after the last payment. That is the- position in a nutshell, and I cannot help thinking that unless this legislation is either amended with a view of doing justice or of legalizing the injustice already done, the Government, some fine morning, will find that they have incurred all sorts of legal penalties by reason of their having acted contrary to law. We cannot refuse to pay people something to which they are entitled without incurring certain pains and penalties. If a person, at the time of his death, is entitled to a sum of money from another person, his heirs at law have a right to it. In the same way an old-age pensioner is entitled to i os. per week up to the time of his death, but that right has not yet been recognised.

Sir John Forrest:

– All other pensions are paid up to the date of death.

Mr KELLY:

– Certainly. Of course, it is only fair to say that, in many cases, it is difficult to determine who are the heirs of old-age pensioners.

Sir John Forrest:

– There is sometimes the same difficulty in other cases.

Mr KELLY:

– Yet other persons are paid up to the date of death. I think that if the heirs-at-law of old-age pensioners had the means to appeal to the law Courts, they could insist upon the same course being followed under the Old-age Pensions Act.

Sir John Forrest:

– Unless a man makes a legal claim he cannot obtain what is due to an old-age pensioner at the time of his death.

Mr KELLY:

– Quite so. In old-age pensioners we have a class of the community, of all others, most entitled to our sympathy.

Sir John Forrest:

– They generally have relations.

Mr KELLY:

– But the relations usually are not in happy enough circumstances to insist upon their legal rights in matters of this kind.

Sir John Forrest:

– The Treasurer looks into such claims, and pays them if he thinks they are right.

Mr KELLY:

– That does not always happen.

Mr Fisher:

– Did the right honorable member for Swan pay such claims when he was Treasurer?

Sir John Forrest:

– I did in a great many cases.

Mr KELLY:

– I hope that the Prime Minister will treat this question from a non-party stand-point, and deal with it on its merits. He says that he does not propose to pay such claims.

Sir William Lyne:

– The Prime Minister did not say he would not pay them. What Ire said was that there was great difficulty in ascertaining who was entitled to the payment.

Mr KELLY:

– I do not object to the Department taking somewhat extensive powers in order to be able to pay the friends and relatives of deceased old-age pensioners the money to which they are entitled, without legal cost.

Mr West:

– The pension amounts to is. 5jd. a day. A man would not be likely to go to law for the sake of recovering one day’s arrears.

Mr KELLY:

– But that is no reason why we should refuse to give these people their rights.

Mr West:

– I agree with the honorable member.

Mr KELLY:

– We are dealing with people who are unable, in cases of this kind, to go to law, and that is all the more reason why we should deal generously and openly with them. I am asking only for justice, and am convinced that the House will support, if not my particular proposal, at all events one that will insure rough-and-ready justice to the oldage pensioners of Australia.

Mr West:

– Something has to be done after a pensioner’s death.

Mr KELLY:

– The first thing that the relatives have to do is to bury him. What is the position of an old-age pensioner? A man cannot very well live on 10s. a week, and he is dependent, to a considerable extent, upon the kindness of his relatives or friends. Those relatives or friends have to bury him after he dies. Are they not entitled to the amount due to him at his death, in order to give him decent burial ? That is all I ask. It is a simple thing. The last right of a citizen of this Commonwealth is that he be decently buried, and I think that the House might well accede to my proposition. I am not wedded to the particular wording of the motion. If any one can find a way out that will give justice to the old-age pensioners, while safeguarding the Treasury against legal costs, no one will be better pleased than I shall be. This is not my particular baby. I shall be very happy to see the motion amended in any way honorable members choose, provided that it carries out my desire to secure justice to the old-age pensioners who are affected in this regard. I do not think I need detain honorable members much longer. I have put my case, I hope, temperately, and have endeavoured to draw attention to a grave injustice, which will react on the Department if any speculative lawyer cares to take up cases of the kind on behalf of litigious people.

Mr Bamford:

– It does not concern the old-age pensioner, because he is dead.

Mr KELLY:

– The honorable member says that once a man is dead it is no concern to him how he is buried. My honorable friend is very material, but I venture “to express the opinion that there are in this community many who would live less happily than they do if they thought they were to be buried in a way that those who knew them would consider unworthy. I wish to see every man and woman in this community given decent burial.

Mr West:

– Why not have cremation?

Mr KELLY:

– I have no time now to discuss cremation. All that I can say is that what old-age pensioners are entitled to at the date of their death their heirs should receive, in order that they may give them decent burial.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– How many honorable members of the Opposition voted against the Surplus Revenue Bill?

Mr KELLY:

– I am delighted to have an opportunity to answer that question. When that measure was introduced we were assured that it had to do with nothing more than certain financial adjustments between the States and the Commonwealth - that it had nothing to do with old-age pensions.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must not discuss that matter.

Mr KELLY:

– The difficulty is that honorable members give utterance to calumnies on the platform, and that we are, by the rules of the House, debarred from giving any reply. However, I am delighted to have the opportunity to expose this particular calumny so far as the Standing Orders permit. It is well known to all who address themselves to the consideration of public affairs in an honest, straightforward way that no section of this House is opposed to the principle of Commonwealth old-age pensions ; and I hope that no member of this House, on the public platform or elsewhere, will express any doubt as to that fact merely in order to cast discredit on political opponents. I have placed . the position very temperately before the House, and I feel confident that the kindly consideration of honorable members will commend it to the Government, and that a remedy will be found for the injustice. *

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

.- I am aware that, according to practice, and, I think, the Act and regulations, pension for any broken period in the event of death is not paid. The regulations, I may say, came into force before I assumed office, and I could never see the justice of this provision, though I did not take steps during the few months I was at the Treasury to alter it. The pensions are paid fortnightly, and not in advance, the first payment having been made a fortnight 1424 Old-age and [REPRESENTATIVES.] Invalid Pensions. after the Act came into force. It is probable that a pensioner, in the event of death, will most likely be in debt to the boardinghouse-keeper, or others with whom he has been living, and, under the present regulations that debt will not be paid. That, in my opinion, is not fair, though I well understand that there are difficulties, and that the present method is the more convenient to the Treasury. It might have been possible to pay the pensions in advance; but, in that case, there would have had to be an alteration in the procedure necessary under the Audit Act, which provides that money must be due before it is paid. In all pensions of which I have any knowledge the pensioners receive payment up to the day of death; and I cannot see why a different plan should be adopted with regard to old-age pensioners, who are generally persons with very slender resources. It is quite possible that a pensioner may have a wife and family or others dependent on him; and it is not reasonable that he should be placed at a disability as compared with other pensioners under the Crown. This does not accord with our ordinary ideas of what is right; and we ought to take a step in the direction suggested by the honorable member for Wentworth. In some cases the old people have homes of their own, though these may not be very sumptuous; and, as sometimes both husband and wife have pensions, the payment, it may be for a full thirteen days, is a great consideration. Something should be done, in view of the fact that, if a pensioner lived a day or two longer, the full amount would be paid. The Treasurer will find it very hard to find arguments against the proposal now made, the only one being - though really it is no argument at all - that the suggested payment is not convenient. The Treasury may ask to whom the money has to be paid ; but the Treasury is not bound to pay money unless it is demanded, and the right of the person demanding it has been ascertained. In cases where letters of administration are necessary, the Treasury has to be satisfied that the payment is justified. I know that the Treasury often pays money to relatives and other persons if it is satisfied as to the right of those persons, the advice of the Crown Solicitor usually being taken on the point. In the event of a case not being made out, the Treasury has only to hold its hand and demand letters of administration, or some other proof. As to the death of an old-age pensioner without any funds at all, the amount due would be useful at such a time.

Mr Bamford:

– It cannot be more than £1

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– Pensioners need not draw the money every fortnight, but, with certain limitations, may draw larger sums at longer intervals. But even the small amount of £1 is useful in a house in time of trouble and death ; and as we have entered upon this beneficent measure, we might go a step further. I am not going to press the matter on the Government, because it is for them to decide what should be done. I can only advise what I take to be the right and proper course.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- Section 40 of the Pensions Act provides that pension money must be claimed by the pensioner within twenty-one days of the date on which it is due, and that he must produce his certificate. That makes it impossible for the Treasury to pay arrears accrued on a pensioner’s death, or to make a regulation of which the Auditor-General would approve allowing that to be done. The existence of letters of administration in these cases cannot be contemplated, because, generally, the pensioners have nothing to leave. If a pensioner had£50 or so in a savings bank, his next of kin could, under the Savings Bank Acts of most of the States, obtain it on mere application and proof of identity. That is the law in South Australia in regard to Savings Bank deposits not exceeding £50. I suggest to the Treasurer that we might adopt a principle similar to that of the friendly societies, which allows persons to nominate others, whose names are entered on the books of the society, as those who shall benefit at their death, no letters: of administration or other proof being required. Similarly, every pensioner might be allowed to nominate a person who, on his death, should receive the accrued’ arrears of pensions.

Mr Fisher:

– But that could not be provided for without an alteration of the law.

Mr GLYNN:

– I think it would require an amending Act. We might provide that a pensioner should be allowed to nominate some one to the Registrar, and thus dispense with letters of administration and other proof. On a pensioner’s death being established, the Department would pay to the person nominated whatever amount had accrued. Of course, a claim would have to be made within a certain time, unless there was sufficient reason for postponing it.

Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– - I thank the honorable member for Angas for his suggestion. The honorable member for Wentworth is right in saying that I #admitted in a conversation that this was a very difficult and expensive matter to deal with from the Treasurer’s point of view. It is a mistake to think that I am hard-hearted. I am merely following the example of my predecessors.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The Labour Government came into power to reform everything.

Mr FISHER:

– That is so. The right honorable member for Swan, who seconded the motion, admitted that, although he was Treasurer for a period ten times as long as that during which I have occupied the position, he did nothing to remedy this anomaly.

Sir John Forrest:

– It was never brought .up.

Mr FISHER:

– The right honorable member’s inaction does not in any way reflect on his goodness of heart. The honorable member for Angas properly states that the law forbids us to pay any sum that may have accrued between the date of the last payment of a pension and the pensioner’s death. The Commonwealth has no desire to keep back the money from next of kin, but it has no legal power to pay it. On an average 500 pensioners die every month, and the work involved in ascertaining those legally entitled to arrears, could arrears be paid, would cost probably not less than £1 in every case, and in some cases £4. or £5.

Mr Kelly:

– I suggested a roughandready procedure.

Mr FISHER:

– It will be admitted that, as a matter of abstract justice, a pensioner or his next of kin should, if possible, receive every penny of the pension payable to him. The suggestion of the honorable member for Angas that every pensioner should nominate some one to whom an accrued balance might be paid in the event of his death seems a feasible way out of the difficulty, and one that would relieve the Commonwealth of great trouble and expense.

Mr Kelly:

– I am ready to adopt the suggestion of the honorable member for Angas, and to amend the motion so as to give effect to it.

Mr FISHER:

– I do not object to the motion being passed in that form. The Government are willing to pay what is due to the pensioner or those he leaves behind him, but they do not wish to give an opportunity to lawyers and others to earn money in settling the affairs of old-age pensioners, nor do they desire to be involved in legal proceedings or expense. Probably the best thing to do will be to provide that future payments of invalid and old-age pensions shall be taken to be payments in advance.

Sir John Forrest:

– That would save a lot of trouble.

Mr FISHER:

– No substantial injustice would be done by that arrangement. The Government propose to reduce before next Christmas, the age at which women will be eligible for pensions, and to provide for invalid pensioners. It seems to me that when we issue a proclamation dealing with those matters we might also provide that pensions shall be considered to be paid in advance. We desire to do all that is possible to make the pensioners happy and secure in their pensions.

Sir John Forrest:

– - Persons who are not entitled to pensions should be prevented from getting them. Many persons who are not entitled to pensions get them.

Mr FISHER:

– The right honorable member has put his finger on a sore spot. Furthermore, if arrears of pensions were payable after pensioners’ deaths, there would be persons who would try to earn a little in connexion with the recovery of the money, even though the amounts would not be greater than 10s. or £1. This would involve the Commonwealth in expense, and might put us to the indignity of having to appear in Court.

Mr Kelly:

– Does the honorable member suggest that the pensions of persons who have died should be considered to have been paid in advance?

Mr FISHER:

– Legally there is no obligation on the Commonwealth to pay arrears of pensions to the next of kin of a deceased pensioner. The only question is one of equity, and it is very difficult to determine who should get the few shillings due to a pensioner on the date of his death. The Government do not wish to be hardhearted, but I think that it would not be unfair or unjust to say that in future all pensions shall be considered to be paid in advance.

Mr Kelly:

– Does the honorable member speak of future or existing pensions?

Mr FISHER:

– I do not suggest that the present pensioners should be paid ‘ an extra fortnight’s pension ; but the first payment to new pensioners might well be taken to be a payment in advance. Then if the pensioner died next day no one except the “Government would suffer any loss. At the present time the legal assumption is that the payment is in advance. What I suggest appears a safe way out of the difficulty.

Mr LIVINGSTON:
Barker

– I am pleased that the honorable member for Wentworth has brought this matter forward, because I know of several cases of hardship. In one instance a pensioner obtained credit, and the person who gave it was not able to secure’ repayment out of the -amount of pension which had accrued between the date of the pensioner’s death and :the date of the last payment of the pension. Then, at Kalangadoo, pensions were not paid for several months because the postoffice is situated on railway premises, and the Railways Commissioner could not see his way to allow the stationmaster to undertake the work. There the pensioners were several months without receiving their money, and, in the meantime were getting a little credit. One of them died without receiving any of his pension at all, although it should have been paid for several months beforehand. The relatives thought that they could collect the arrears, but found that they could not. That is one case of hardship, and I hope that when it is brought under the notice of the Treasurer he will see his way to pay the money to the relatives. I am sure that if he looks into the case he will do justice, because it is a deserving one.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Hume

– I do not think that, so far as the discussion has gone, the matter is quite settled. I understood at first that the Treasurer said the pensions would be taken as paid in advance, and that he meant by that that the pensions are due, and if they are not paid, they are still the property of the pensioners, so that if a pensioner dies in the meantime some one has to take the responsibility of receiving the money. The method suggested now by the Treasurer does not get away from the fact that sometimes there is money held in the Treasury to which the pensioner is entitled.

Mr Fisher:

– It gets the Commonwealth out of the difficulty.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– The amounts due in these cases are so small, as they can only be due for a fortnight, or, possibly, in some cases, a month, that the Treasurer or his officers ought to ascertain, if they can, to whom they are due, and pay them. The Treasurer ought to be indemnified for making those payments, and I think we can trust any Treasurer to see that they are made to some one to whom they are rightfully due. If, as in the case suggested by the honorable member for Barker, persons have advanced money to the pensioner, as is often done, they ought to receive a certificate that so much is due to them, so that if anything happens to the pensioner that certificate can be produced, and the Treasurer ought to be indemnified for honoring it at once.

Mr Fisher:

– Under the present Act there is no power to pay, even in those circumstances.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– If there is no legal power, I think the Treasurer is right in saying that there should be an amendment of the Act. The Treasurer should have power to pay if he is satisfied, instead of going through the rigmarole of going to a lawyer’s office, because these pensioners and their relatives are mostly people who can ill afford to pay legal costs. If the Treasurer will take the responsibility, and pay the money, I am sure no one will take exception to that course, but it would be better to make it technically legal by an amendment of the Act or by issuing a proclamation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I entirely agree with the last suggestion of the honorable member for Hume. That is a way out of the difficulty. A great deal more is being made of these difficulties than there need be. The Government could not go far wrong if they simply used the machinery that they at present have to find out the bona fides of these payments. The legal position would need to be tested only when some mistake had been made. The Government have certain agents who now, on their behalf, look after the business of paying old-age pensions. The bank, or the Deputy Commissioner, or the person responsible, whoever he might be, could find out the bona fides of payments of this kind in precisely the same way as they now find out everything about an old-age pensioner before he is considered eligible for a pension. That process is tedious in the extreme, and wants simplifying greatly. I have cases

Mr Fisher:

– And leading the Commonwealth into great expense at the same time.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Exactly. But I do not see why the Treasurer could not avail himself of the machinery that he already has to insure the bona fides of these payments.

Mr Fisher:

– The law is against it. The money must be paid to the pensioner, and he must give a receipt.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Or somebody who acts for the pensioner.

Mr Fisher:

– I think not.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Take the case of old-age pensioners who have been inmates of benevolent asylums, in my “own district. Very often, before an old man can get out of an institution, and become a pensioner, he has to nominate some person to receive the money, and look after it for him.

Mr Fisher:

– That is in cases where he is not competent to look after his own estate, but that part of the law does not apply to these cases.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not see why the same process should not be followed to insure the proper destination of money in case the pensioner dies.

Mr Fisher:

– Old-age pensioners .who are capable of managing their own affairs would not allow any one to be appointed to look after the money for them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– As a matter of fact, the Government will not allow an old man to come out of one of those homes until he has somebody to take his money for him, and make himself responsible for its wise expenditure. If that is the case to-day, what is the difference between using that machinery to insure the proper destination of the money while the pensioner lives, and using the same machinery to see that the money goes to its proper destination when the pensioner is no longer in need of it? I see no difficulty, but if some

Mr Fisher:

– I do not.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorablemember cannot get out of it while the law/ exists as it is.

Mr West:

– Every person who lives to the age of sixty-five ought to be entitled to it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think so, ton. The matter will never be on a satisfactory basis until every element and attribute of charity is eliminated from it. In the meantime, I shall move an amendment to give the Government the requisite authority to make these payments.

Mr Fisher:

– The Auditor-General would not allow us.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I suppose the Auditor-General overlooks worse cases than that.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member never said anything worse than tha’t in his life.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I know of many matters which do not appeal, to the pathos of our human life such as this one does, but which are still outstanding between the Auditor-General and the Departments. The question of legality is constantly cropping: up in nearly all the Departments with! regard to the payments they make from time to time. I do not think the Prime Minister would go very far wrong if he “ chanced “ it in the cause of charity. Charity covers a multitude of sins, but 1428 Old-age and [REPRESENTATIVES.] Invalid Pensions. the honorable member need not even regard the question from that stand-point, for he could bring down a small amendment of the Act, put it through in one night, and so make his action legal. I move -

That after the word “deceased” the following words be added : - “ or such person as the old-age pensioner has nominated.”

That will give him the right, before his death, to bequeath, so to speak, the balance due to him. If that is not lawful, at any rate it obeys every other law in the world except the mere dry statute law. I am sure the Prime Minister would get the consent of every member in the House to an alteration of the Act if it is necessary. I want to raise another matter in connexion with old-age pensions - the question of the inmates of hospitals and benevolent asylums. I raised it more than once when my own colleague was at the Treasury, and something should be done as speedily as possible.

Mr Roberts:

– Does the honorable member think the inmates ought to receive the pensions?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think the hospitals ought to receive payment when the pensioner is an inmate.

Mr Roberts:

– The honorable member voted against that when I moved in that direction.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I do not think I did.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member will not be in order in discussing the matter which he has just raised, even on the amendment that he has moved.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am going to put myself in order by moving as a further amendment following that which I have just indicated, the addition of the words - and is further of the opinion that payment should be made by the Government to the hospital authorities when and so long as the pensioner is an inmate of any such hospital.

Mr SPEAKER:

– We must first deal with the original amendment.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I intend these words, sir, to form part of the one amendment. My idea is that the Government should make some payment to the authorities when an old-age pensioner becomes an inmate of a hospital. I understand that the rule now is to pay nothing to the hospital during the time that the pensioner is sick. The pension accumulates to the, extent of twenty-eight days while the pensioner is in the hospital, and upon his dis charge he receives the amount that has accrued.

Mr Poynton:

– Have not the hospitals to keep all persons in indigent circumstances, who become inmates?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes. But hospitals are supposed to care for people when they are not able to care for themselves.

Mr Poynton:

– What is the difference between an old-age pensioner and any other inmate of a hospital in indigent circumstances ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– An old-age pensioner receives10s. per week, whereas an indigent person perhaps has not ten coppers.

Mr Poynton:

– Many inmates of hospitals are worth more than10s. per week.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– And the rule of the hospitals is that a man shall pay, if he can, for his treatment.

Mr McWilliams:

– The hospitals sue pretty readily in such cases.

Mr Poynton:

– Not in South Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– In New South Wales it was the rule, prior to the Commonwealth taking over the payment of oldage pensions from the State Government, to pay the hospital authorities 5s. per week in respect of old-age pensioners who were inmates, and to save the remaining 5s. per week for the inmates to receive on leaving. Nowadays the Federal Government pays nothing in such cases to the hospitals.

Mr Poynton:

– Would not the hospitals have to treat these old people, and to keep them, if there were no old-age pensions ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Of course they would, but the principle underlying the payment of old-age pensions is that these old people shall be relieved of the stigma of pauperism. We have no right to treat them as if they were paupers in the strict sense of the term. It is wrong for the Government to throw upon the private charity of the community the whole burden of keeping an old-age pensioner when he happens to be sick. I do not think that the Government are carrying out the intention and purpose of the Act so long as they refuse to make some payment to the hospital authorities while old-age pensioners are inmates of such institutions. What an idea it is that we should bring in this beneficent legislation, and, when an old-age pensioner is sick, and in need of even more sympathy and consideration than usual, should stop the payments under it.

*Old-age and* [11 August, 1910.] *Invalid Pensions.* 1429 {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Money accumulates to his credit in such circumstances. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The pension accumulates for twenty-eight days, and if the pensioner remains in the hospital for six months, the Government saves five months' pay. That system cannot be defended upon any humanitarian ground, nor upon any fair business-like consideration of the whole matter. These hospitals, private in the sense that private subscriptions support them, are not rich, and I contend that the Government should pay those in which there are old-age pensioners, not perhaps the full pension, but some allowance, as was done under the State system in New South Wales. I think, by the way, that the provision for the accumulation of the pension for twenty-eight days relates only to inmates of benevolent asylums, and not to the case of pensioners in hospitals. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- No, it applies in both cases. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I think that that is so, but I shall verify the statement in a few moments. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is only fair that the Government should make some payment to hospitals for the care and treatment of old-age pensioners. In the electorates of Parramatta and Nepean there are a number of old-age pensioners who are inmates of these institutions, and the tax upon the hospital authorities is a very heavy one. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Is the tax greater than it was before old-age pensions were paid? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is greater than it was under the State system in New South Wales, because the hospital authorities then received from the Government 5s. per week in respect of every old-age pensioner who was an inmate. They saved the remaining 5s. per week as a little bonus to help these old people to convalescence when they came out. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- The old-age pensioners themselves received nothing. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I thought they did. Some allowance, at all events, was made by the State Government for the fact that the hospital authorities took over from the State the care and control of these pensioners and nursed them back to health. The Federal Government ought not to allow old-age pensioners to be so burdensome to local hospitals. In New South Wales they are concentrated in various places. They are concentrated particularly in the electorates of Parramatta and Nepean, and they all go to the one local hospital, which is feeling the burden very keenly. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- The position is the same in Hobart and Launceston. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I dare say that it is. If the Government cannot meet the position in any other way, they ought to make some special grant *to* hospitals and benevolent asylums caring for these old people, who are gathered from every quarter of each State. {: .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr Roberts: -- If the honorable member had only thought this way last session it would have been all right. We then moved in this direction, and he opposed us. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- If the honorable member did so then, I suppose there will be no trouble now. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- If the Government would pay portion of the pensions to the hospitals who look after these old people, that would be a reasonable course to pursue. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- That is all that I am asking. {: .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr Roberts: -- And the honorable member and some of his party voted against such a proposition last year. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- We did not. {: .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr Roberts: -- The honorable member is another who voted against it. I refer him to *Hansard,* vol. L., page 1602. {: #subdebate-9-0-s8 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- At that page I find this statement - {: .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr Roberts: -- I ask leave to withdraw my motion. {: .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr Roberts: -- That was a motion dissenting from the Chairman's ruling. Look at the division list. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- There is no division of that kind shown. The honorable member ought not to try to make party capital out of a proposal of this kind. {: .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr Roberts: -- That is a shockingly incorrect statement. There were two divisions on the question. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- At all events, I hope we shall have the honorable member's support in the effort we are now making to secure a modicum of justice to the local hospitals, which relieve the Government of the duty of attending to these old people while they are sick and incapable of looking after themselves. By the adoption of the motion as amended I think we shall take a step forward in liberalising this humanitarian legislation. We shall make it, at any rate, more just than it is, 1430 *Old-age and* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Invalid Pensions.* and somewhat more liberal, both to the pensioners themselves and to the local authorities, who are now excessively burdened. {: #subdebate-9-0-s9 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare -- I do not think that the amendment will secure the object which the honorable member has in view, or avoid the difficulties that have occurred, from a legal stand-point, in connexion with these payments. In New South Wales we had a State Old-age Pensions Act in operation for some years, and if a pensioner became an inmate of a public hospital his pension practically ceased. The Government made it a practice, however, to allow the authorities of the hospital of which he was an inmate a direct payment of 5s. per week whilst he remained there. One of the grievances of pensioners so situated was that on leaving the hospital they had to wait a month before the next payment was due, and that they were thusleft without money at a time when they were most in need of it. Very often these old people are only convalescent when they are turned out practically without any money. The principle of recognising the claims of " hospitals of this kind was debated in the last Parliament, but was not adopted. However, the Administration, recognising that pensioners have some claims, agreed to pay the pension for twenty-eight days after the pensioner has been sent to a hospital, though, if he remains for a longer period no further payment is made. Only the other day I had a conversation with the secretary of one of the leading hospitals in my electorate, and he told me that the Commonwealth system had its advantages. Very often, I was told, the pensioners did not remain in the hospitals for any considerable length of time, and it was to their credit that they recognised their obligations, and were always ready to make a reasonable payment out of the money paid to them for the twenty-eight days. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- The pensioners cannot have much left for themselves ! {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- But they have a little left; whereas under the State law they had nothing. There is a general feeling amongst hospital authorities that some arrangement, similar to that which obtained under the New South Wales Pensions Act, should be made in the case of Commonwealth pensioners. The officer to whom I have referred informed me that on no occasion had a pensioner treated in his hospital refused to pay a fair share of the amount he received; but, of course, that is a matter which rests with the pensioner, who may refuse, while the hospital authorities are powerless to insist. It must be remembered that a pensioner may have to remain much longer than twenty-eight days under hospital treatment, and in such case under the present plan, no return whatever can be made to the hospital..I trust that the proposal of the honorable member for Parramatta will be regarded as reasonable, and I strongly recommend it to the favorable consideration of the Government, so that hospitals may receive a fair proportion of the pension, not only for twenty-eight days, but for the whole time that a pensioner may be within their walls. I am in sympathy with the object of the honorable member for Wentworth, but I do not think that the method proposed is the best to attain it. The honorable member asks that the payments shall be made to the heirs of the pensioner. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- I have accepted an amendment substituting a person to be nominated by the deceased. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- That, of course, removes considerable objection, because, if that provision were allowed to remain, it would give rise to those very legal difficulties that the Prime Minister is striving to avoid. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I have submitted an amendment to add the words " or such person as the pensioner may nominate." {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Then that means that the words as to the heir remain ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I desire to give the pensioner the right to say to whom the money shall be paid. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- A pensioner has that right at present, and no motion is therefore required. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- That right does not operate after his death. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I believe the honorable member is right, and that the money is forfeited after death. What is sought by the motion is that the money shall be paid to some one who has taken an interest in the pensioner, and not some one who merely makes a claim as heiratlaw. Most pensioners have very few friends, though I know many who receive the greatest kindness from persons interested in them. The Department has discovered that heirs-at-law secure legal assistance, and the claims have to be contested at a cost which is sometimes greater than the amount involved. In my opinion, the best way to secure the object we have in view would be to strike out the words " to the heir or heirs-at-law of the deceased " and insert in their place " in satisfaction of the just debts incurred by the pensioner." {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- The just debts might easily exceed the amount of the pension. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The Department is only required to meet the debts to the extent of the money due. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- The storekeeper, for instance, might get the money instead of the nurse. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The Department would be able to determine the claims as they were submitted. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- That would be a very unpleasant duty in some cases. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Not more unpleasant than determining who are the heirs-at-law. Very often the person nominated might not have any debt against the pensioner, and that person would have to determine to whom the money should be paid, and hemight recognise the claim of the nurse as against that of the storekeeper or others whose position was not so strong in equity. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- In any case it is more important to adopt the principle than to talk out the motion. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I do not wish the principle to be stated in garbled terms, which do not express the end in view. I hope the honorable member will drop the reference to the heirs-at-law. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- I have already dropped it. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Suppose a pensioner has no debts? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Then the money will go back to the Department. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- After all, it is the pensioner's money, and he ought to be able to leave it to whom he likes. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- When a pensioner nominates a person to draw the pension, he does not intend to leave the money to that person. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Any beneficiary under a will has to meet the just debts of the deceased. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The amount of the pension is so small that I am afraid it would take more than the money due from the Department to get a will proved. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- My honorable friend is taking points. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Not at all ; but, if so, I am only following the example of the honorable member. I desire that people who may not be related to the pensioner, but who may have incurred expense in providing medical attendance and so forth, should be recouped. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- That is exactly what we are providing for. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The honorable member seems to take a peculiar way of doing so. I admit there is a germ of correct principle in the motion; and I hope the Prime Minister will take the sense of the House so that fair and just claims may have every consideration. {: #subdebate-9-0-s10 .speaker-JW6} ##### Mr CANN:
Nepean .- I am somewhat interested in this question, seeing that there are upwards of 2,000 of my constituents in benevolent asylums ; and I am in sympathy with the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Parramatta. The inmates of these institutions suffer a certain amount of hardship. It is perfectly true that, once within the walls, they have to nominate some one outside to be responsible for them if they desire to be discharged; and, if such a condition be imposed, it is only fair that there should be a provision such as that proposed by the honorable member for Parramatta, because, otherwise, the person nominated is bound to suffer injustice. I trust the Treasurer will give favorable consideration to the proposal, which, if carried, will prove a great boon to the pensioner inmates of benevolent institutions. The condition that a pensioner shall nominate some one to be responsible for him very often proves irksome, and large numbers of old people so circumstanced regard themselves as almost prisoners. I trust that the Treasurer will see his way clear to make the lot of these poor people easier. {: #subdebate-9-0-s11 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- The proposal now before the House goes further than that originally brought forward by the honorable memher for Wentworth. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I purposely left the terms of the amendment open, to give the Government discretion in the matter. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- The proposition now is so open that it has no limitation. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Then the honorable member can suggest one. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Under this proposal, if the honorable member were to set up a hospital and take in old-age pensioners, he 1432 *Old-age and* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Invalid Pensions.* could secure the payment of their pensions to himself. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- A man could not keep a pensioner in a hospital for three times the amount of the pension. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- We know that there are old-age pensioners who cannot look after themselves, and there are, unfortunately, those who are prepared to make money by looking after them, perhaps in places which might be called hospitals. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- The honorable member for Parramatta will accept any alteration of his proposal which will make it clearer. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I should like him to let me know what is in his mind. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I meant public hospitals. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Is it intended that the whole of a pension shall be paid to a hospital during the time that the pensioner is an inmate of it? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I have left it to the Government to decide that. In New South Wales hospitals used to draw half of the pensions of old-age pensioners who were inmates. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- In my opinion, the States which have been relieved of the obligation to pay old-age pensions, andwill soon be largely relieved of the obligation to pay invalid pensions, have acted rather ungenerously, in constantly claiming payment for small services in connexion with administration. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Why does the Commonwealth cease to pay to a pensioner while he is the inmate of a hospital? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Because so long as he is in a hospital, provision is being made for his support; but the pension is allowed to accrue for a term of twenty-eight days, so that on leaving the hospital the pensioner may have 40s. with which to make a new start. It must be remembered that the public hospitals are institutions where not only old-age pensioners, but also all other citizens who cannot afford to pay for medical and surgical attendance elsewhere, may be properly treated, and why should they be paid for the treatment of old-age pensioners, seeing they are not paid for the treatment of those who are not pensioners and cannot afford to pay for themselves ? {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- But at present the Commonwealth makes money out of the illness of an old-age pensioner. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- That is an oblique way of looking at the matter. If a person were receiving10s. or *£1* a week as a pension from a private employer, the hospital would not expect to receive part of that sum for its attendance on him. Apparently the desire of honorable members is that, instead of the pension accumulating for only four weeks, while the pensioner is in hospital, it should accumulate indefinitely, until he comes out again; but that is not the object expressed by the amendment. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- We desire that the hospitals which care for old-age pensioners shall be paid for doing so. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It seems to me that the motion says one thing, and that what honorable members desire is something quite different. The pensions either belong to the pensioners, or they do not. If it be held that the pensioners are entitled to draw their pensions whether in hospital or not, that is a proposal different from the one we have before us. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Personally, I do not object to that. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- There is a good deal of new-born zeal evident on the part of honorable members opposite, though about that. I do not wish to make any further comment. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I hope that the honorable member has not in his mind the statement of the honorable member for Adelaide. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I need not apologize for my position in this matter. I have always been in earnest in regard to old-age pensions. What I think about the proposal of the honorable member is that, if it were determined to pay any part of the pension to some person or institution other than the pensioner, it would be difficult to say where to stop. I should like to know, too, what is meant by a public hospital. Does not the proposal raise . the consideration whether private hospitals should not also be paid? {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Very few pensioners are inmates of private hospitals. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- The Prime Minister has in his mind homes where pensioners are cared for. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- There are plenty of institutions conducted by charitable and religious organizations which are practically hospitals. We must be logical, and cannot deal with this matter with a wave of the hand. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- We are not now legislating; what is before the House is merely *Tasmania:* [11 August,1910.] *Customs Leakage.* 1433 a motion. If it be adopted, the Minister can safeguard the Treasury as he may think proper. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- That is so. The details of administration to which I have referred cannot be settled off-hand. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Accept the principle, and look into the details afterwards. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I do not wish to commit the Government to any matter of detail, but I promise favorable' consideration of the proposal generally. Amendment amended to provide for the omission of the words " the heir or heirsatlaw of the deceased," and the insertion of the word "public" before the word "hospitals," where first occurring, and agreed to. Original question, as amended, resolved in the affirmative. *Resolved-* >That this House is of opinion that old-age or invalid pensions accruing between the date of the last payment of the same and the death of the pensioner should be paid to such person as the old-age pensioner has nominated, and is further of the opinion that payment should be made by the Government to the public hospital authorities when and so long as the pensioner is an inmate of any such hospital. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I desire to make a personal explanation. When I was speaking previously the honorable member for Adelaide interjected that I and others on this side voted last session against the proposition that hospitals should receive the pensions when the pensioners were inmates. I have looked up the debate to which the honorable member directed my attention, and can find nothing of the kind. So far from it being the case, we were not against it, but in favour of it; and I find that the person who was against it was the honorable member for Adelaide himself. He is reported to have said, on 22nd July, 1909, *Hansard,* page 1598 - >So far as asylums are concerned, I am not prepared to follow the honorable member, because I understand there are private asylums in Victoria, and as there is no definition of the term " asylum " in the Act, any asylum, private or public, would be entitled to the payment. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Dr Carty Salmon: -- No one who is able to pay to go into a private asylum would be likely to apply for an old-age pension. {: #subdebate-9-0-s12 .speaker-KZG} ##### Mr ROBERTS: -- In any case, I do not believe in institutions of that kind receiving pension money from the Government. {: .page-start } page 1433 {:#debate-10} ### NAVAL LOAN REPEAL BILL Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. {: .page-start } page 1433 {:#debate-11} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-11-0} #### TASMANIA: CUSTOMS LEAKAGE Debate resumed from 4th August *(vide* page 1 1 26), on motion by **Mr. Jensen** - >That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the State of Tasmania be granted a sum of Twenty-five thousand pounds yearly by the Commonwealth for a period of nine years, to recoup the said State for the loss sustained in Customs leakage since the advent of Federation. {: #subdebate-11-0-s0 .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr POYNTON:
Gray .-I understand that the honorable member for New England on the last occasion intimated his intention to move to strike out certain words from the motion. In his absence I shall move that amendment. I move - >That the words "in Customs leakage" be left out. Judging from the past admissions of Treasurers and others who have made inquiry into the position of Tasmania, it is evident that she has suffered very considerably as the result of Federation. It is not so clear that this has been altogether caused by leakage through the Customs. There is a consensus of opinion that a certain amount of leakage has taken place, but some difficulty in arriving at the actual amount. Section 96 of the Constitution gives power to assist a State situated as Tasmania is at the present time. A still greater reason for supporting the motion is that Tasmania has increased her direct taxation to double the extent of any other State since Federation. In the circumstances, it is only due to Tasmania that the Commonwealth should come to her assistance. The case has been well stated on behalf of Tasmania by her representatives, and I shall content myself with moving the amendment I have indicated. {: #subdebate-11-0-s1 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- I do not quite understand what the omission of the words " in Customs leakage " will really mean. It is practically impossible to assess the loss that any State has suffered from Federation, if you take that loss in its broad, abstract meaning, in the way now suggested by the honorable member for Grey. What we were previously asked to vote upon was a very simple proposition with which I have already expressed myself as in some sympathy. . I waited, 'of course, before definitely deciding, to hear the statement of the Prime Minister on the subject, and I regret that he has not given it to us this afternoon. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- The honorable member for Ballarat suggested this amendment. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I should like to know how far it will carry. Might it be held that any State has suffered loss by virtue of decreasing manufactures under the Tariff? Any person, for instance, who goes to Launceston will see on the outskirts of the town, in the shape of an old soap factory, near the river, a monument to the Tariff that used to exist in Tasmania against imports from Victoria. There are a number of other factories like that one, which used to be protected against Victorian and New South Wales competition, but have been closed up under Inter- State Free Trade. This might be held to be a loss suffered by the State since Federation. It might be argued by some persons that, inasmuch as taxpayers of the State had suffered a loss, in wages, and industries had suffered a loss in output, therefore the State had suffered loss as the direct .result of entering the Federation, and the Commonwealth ought to recoup it. I know the honorable member for Grey does not intend that, but the bald words of the motion as amended may give rise to a number of misunderstandings, and make it somewhat difficult for people who are trying to keep up the end of Commonwealth popularity in those States' which are not altogether satisfied under the Union. I do not think we ought to pass a motion which, by its vague terms, may excite a number of people to think that they are going to get far more than we intend to give them. In the absence of the several times deferred explanation of the Prime Minister, I am inclined to support the proposition to make up to Tasmania her loss in Customs leakage. That is a definite or an approximately computable amount, but it is impossible to compute the loss sustained in any State since the inception of Federation. Further, is the loss sustained since the advent of Federation to be held to be loss sustained owing to having joined the Federation? To what loss will the motion as amended refer, and how sustained? {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Tasmania has lost nearly ^200,000 per year in her Customs revenue. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- If the honorable member says that, well and good. If he mentions the loss that he proposes to recoup, it is all right; but the loss which the motion, as amended, would refer to, would be absolutely unrestricted, because it would mean any loss sustained anyhow since the advent of Federation. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- The recoup is restricted to the amount of ^25,000 per annum mentioned in the motion. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- That is so; but the motion, by implication, says that that ^25,000 covers the whole loss which Tasmania has sustained by any means since Federation. That implication will immediately raise a whole network of argument in rebuttal, especially the *ex parte* argument that is based upon the prejudices of this or that section of the Commonwealth. I see no objection to the term " in Customs leakage." I do not think it is offensive to the present or past holders of the position of Minister of Customs. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- The amendment was suggested by the honorable member's own leader. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I did not hear him. Was he hyper-sensitive as to the feelings of present or past Customs Ministers? {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- He objected to making it a question of Customs leakage. Section 96 provides for this being done if the Commonwealth thinks necessary. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- We. all understand that we have power to supplement the finances of the smaller States, but there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent us informing the State benefited exactly why we propose to benefit it. That is fair not only to that State, but to the rest of Australia, from which we take the money. Here we have a definite statement of an injustice suffered by reason of Customs leakage, and it is for that reason that we are supporting Tasmania. We are supporting her claim not because she is somewhat embarrassed financially, but purely because she has suffered at the hands of the Commonwealth. If we open out the question by omitting these words, we then ask whether Tasmania has reached such a position financially, that, apart altogether from Customs leakage and other matters, she is entitled to demand our financial support to maintain her financial stability. No representative of Tasmania would suggest that she has reached that stage. I agree that that State is in somewhat difficult circumstances, and am willing to do all I can to meet her in her difficulty, but we ought to state in this motion the reason for which we are prepared to grant this sum, so that the people who sent us here will realize that what we are doing is to remedy an injustice, and not to confer benefit on a particular section of the people at the cost of the rest of the community. {: #subdebate-11-0-s2 .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr JOHN THOMSON:
Cowper -- The motion as amended assumes quite a different aspect from that which it originally presented. The contention of the mover was that Tasmania should be recouped by the Commonwealth in respect of a Customs leakage assumed to have occurred owing to the fact that large quantities of goods consumed in Tasmania had been imported in the first place into other States, and that, under the bookkeeping system, the Customs duty collected upon them, had not been credited to her. Whatever may be said in regard to the matter we need to know first of all how this leakage has been brought about. The statement of the mover of the motion, and those who have supported him is that residents of Tasmania, from choice, prefer to buy their goods in Melbourne or Sydney, and that they carry them to their homes in such a way that Inter-State certificates are not issued in respect of them. In this way, they claim that Tasmania has lost considerable revenue, and that she ought to be recouped in respect of that loss. Why do the people of Tasmania do this? On the admission of those who support the motion, it is that they find that they can buy to better advantage in Victoria and New South Wales than in their own State. Whose fault is that? It is certainly notthe fault of the Commonwealth, nor is it due to the Commonwealth Tariff. The fault lies with the business people of Tasmania, who are unable, apparently, to compete with business houses in other States. They cannot be observing such business principles ;as would induce the people generally to obtain from them what they want. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- But Inter-State certificates are not obtained in respect of many of the goods purchased in other States by visitors from Tasmania. {: .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr JOHN THOMSON: -- My point is that the business people of Tasmania are responsible for the leakage, if any occurs, rather than the people of that State, who make purchases in other parts of the Commonwealth. If I had a business house, and my customers, after a time, passed my doors to buy elsewhere, the fault would rest with me. The trouble would be either that I was unable to supply them with the goods they required, or that I charged too much for them. The business people of Tasmania could remedy the trouble by importing their own goods, and selling them at a price that would meet with public approval. I rise, however, not to advise the business people of Tasmania how they should conduct their establishments, but, first of all, to ask upon what basis the determination has been arrived at that Tasmania has suffered a loss of ^25,000 per annum during the last nine years. What data have we to justify the claim? The nine years' period represents the life of the Federation, and I wish to know whether Tasmania has suffered this loss as the result of Federation. It may be, and perhaps, is true, that there has been a diminution in the amount of Customs duty collected in that State since Federation, but when we speak of a loss under one heading, we have also to ask ourselves whether there has not been a gain in other respects. Has Tasmania gained nothing under Federation? Has she not secured under it in Melbourne and Sydney markets that she did not possess before? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- And, above all, a market in Western Australia? {: .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr JOHN THOMSON: -- I thank the honorable member for his interjection. Was it not the promise of such markets that induced Tasmania to enter the Federation ? Was she not hampered in the sale of her products, particularly her fruit and potatoes, by not having a market of her own? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- No. She had just as good a market as she has to-day. {: .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr JOHN THOMSON: -- When we are considering a loss, we must not forget to look at both sides of the ledger. Whilst Tasmania may have lost in the direction indicated, the fact remains that she has been, as the result of Federation, a considerable gainer. On the admission of the representatives of that State, the people of Tasmania find in *Sydney* a market which they never had before, and they admit that it is a better market than they could get anywhere else. Before supporting a motion of this kind, I wish to be thoroughly satisfied that Tasmania can establish a claim to have suffered any loss whatever. She must show that she has suffered a loss under Federation by reason of Customs leakage, and I want to be assured that, as a set-off against that loss, she has not gained by an increase in the values of her products, as the result of securing a wider market. The mover of the motion, and those who support it, will have some difficulty in showing that Tasmania has suffered a loss of ,£25,000 per annum. If it were proved that, as the result of Federation, that loss had been sustained, we should be able to consider whether or not it was advisable that she should be recouped. On the evidence at present before us, however, we could not think of granting this sum. Tasmania went into Federation with her eyes open. In the Senate she has the same representation as the larger States ; and she has obtained, under Federation, a market for her goods which she did not previously possess. If this sum of ^25,000 per annum is to be paid for nine years, where is it to come from? It must come from some of the other States; and I should like to know when this sort of thing is going to stop. It is becoming rather monotonous to find that some of the States, either because of new financial arrangements, or from other causes, are bearing more than their fair share of the cost of Federation. Tasmania, as I have said, entered the Federation with her eyes open, and the people of that State have a responsibility to themselves. We do not desire to press that side of the question to a greater extent than is necessary to secure reasonable conditions ; but we should not be acting fairly if we accepted an *ex parte* statement that Tasmania had suffered a loss. It must be shown that there has been a general loss - that, taking the losses in respect of some items, and the gains in respect of others, there has been an actual loss. I should be glad to have evidence to satisfy me that a general loss had been sustained by Tasmania, and not merely a loss in respect of only one item. . 1 sympathize with any State that has actually suffered a pecuniary loss as the result of Federation; and recognise that, in such cases, the Commonwealth can afford assistance. But, in this instance, the claim for consideration has not been clearly established ; and I cannot see my way at present to support the motion. It will rest with others who follow me to prove that there has been such a loss as is alleged, and that the gain in other respects has not made good that loss. {: #subdebate-11-0-s3 .speaker-KDD} ##### Mr G B EDWARDS:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- I should like to explain, **Mr. Speaker,** that when this motion was last under discussion, I moved an amendment providing for the reduction of the amount claimed from ^25,000 to ^15,000 per annum, and omitting all the words after " years," with a view of inserting, in lieu thereof, the words, " under section 96 of the Constitution." I did not put that amendment in writing, because the consideration of the motion was automatically adjourned under the Standing Orders; and I had to take up other business which fol lowed immediately after. I distinctly moved the amendment. {: #subdebate-11-0-s4 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I would point out to the honorable member that the honorable member for New England was speaking when the debate was adjourned. {: .speaker-KDD} ##### Mr G B EDWARDS:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- That is true. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- It must have been at an earlier stage that the honorable member moved his amendment. I may say that it was not handed to me, and that I did not put it from the Chair. If the honorable member desires to move the amendment he has indicated, I am sure the honorable member for Grey will temporarily withdraw that which he has moved, in order to give him an opportunity to do so. Had the amendment been formally put from the chair, it would have appeared in the *Votes and Proceedings.* {: .speaker-KDD} ##### Mr G B EDWARDS:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- I admit, **Mr. Speaker,** that I did not put my amendment in writing; but I formally moved it, and it appeared in *Hansard,* and in the public press. If I am at liberty, I should like now to move it. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I am just informed by the Clerk, that the reason why the amendment does not appear in the *Votes and Proceedings* is that, although it was moved by the honorable member, it was not seconded, and, therefore, lapsed. {: #subdebate-11-0-s5 .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot .- I had no intention of addressing myself to the motion at this stage, because I desired 0 that the House should come to a vote ; but, having listened to the honorable member for Cowper, I have come to the conclusion that he has scarcely grasped the principle upon which this claim -is made. The motion was submitted in a very able speech by the honorable member for Bass; and i should like briefly to state the basis of the claim. Under the bookkeeping system, each State is credited with the Customs duty collected on goods that are consumed by it ; but a large quantity of dutiable goods from other States is consumed in Tasmania, and she is not credited with duty collected in respect of . those goods. For instance, in the case of many goods which are imported into other States, but consumed in Tasmania, the latter State gets no credit, owing to the failure of the bookkeeping system. {: .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr John Thomson: -- What about the other side? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- There can be no " other side." If Tasmania could prove her loss she would not have to come to this Parliament for redress, but would *Tasmania:* [1 1 August,1910.] *Customs Leakage.* 1437 simply lay a claim before the High Court. We cannot prove exactly what we have lost, but we can show that it must have been something considerable; and Tasmania certainly has a moral claim on the equity and good conscience of Parliament. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr Sinclair: -- What is the value of the goods which have gone into Tasmania without Inter- State certificates? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- The Statistician of Tasmania estimates the loss at *£40,000* per annum. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- That is a wrong estimate. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- It may be, but, certainly, the Statistician of Tasmania must know more about the matter than does the Minister of Trade and Customs. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr Sinclair: -- The Statistician is more interested ! {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I admit that. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- What is the Department's estimate of the loss? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I do not know that the Department has made an estimate. The loss is not the fault of the Customs officials, because it is on" goods that do not come under their notice that the loss is made. {: .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr John Thomson: -- Is there smuggling? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- There is no smuggling, but simply a breakdown of the system inaugurated under the Constitution. The honorable member for Cowper has this afternoon made a good many statements that are quite wide of the real issue, and, amongst other questions, he has asked, " What about the other side ?" As I have already pointed out, there can be no " other side," because the fact is admitted that Tasmania has suffered a real loss through no fault of her own. If Victoria and New South Wales have received most of the money which should have been credited to Tasmania, the fault lies in the system; and it is the duty of this Parliament to recoup Tasmania. It is impossible to state exactly what the loss has been, but in the year 1908-9, as shown in a paper circulated by the Premier of Tasmania on the 5th July last, out of£295,668 credited to that State on account of Customs duties, no less than , £139,193 was so credited on account of Customs on goods originally imported into other States, while the balance of£156,575 represents duties on goods originally imported into Tasmania. This means that 47 per cent. of the duties credited to Tasmania were derived from Inter-State imports, while in Victoria only 5 per cent., and in New South Wales 8 per cent., were so credited. Had Tasmania been paid on a *per capita* basis, she would in someyears have received *£90,000* more than was actually handed over under the bookkeeping system; and it surely cannot be said that that amount represents the difference between the consuming power of Tasmania and the rest of the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr Sinclair: -- How do the imports *per capita* compare with those of pre- Federation days ? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- Does the honorable member mean imports from oversea? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- The complete imports. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I have not the exact figures, because I did not come prepared for the question. The imports oversea into Tasmania have increased very slightly, while the Inter-State imports have extended largely. Tasmania is doing her duty by dealing with the States, while the latter are getting goods from outside ; and yet Tasmania is told that she is to have no consideration whatever in respect of an admittedly just claim. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- Have not the exports from Tasmania to the other States also grown ? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- They have grown no more than could be expected from the normal increaseof trade. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- They have always exported apples ! {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- Quite so; and we have always had as free a market in Sydney as we have to-day. Some honorable members talk about Western Australia as a free market, but I can assure them that one large item of produce from the northwest coast of the island cannot go into Western Australia owingto a regulation prohibiting the importation of potatoes grown within 50 miles of an area infected with Irish blight. We can see, therefore, that the advantages to Tasmania are rather visionary, while the loss remains. However, I can see that a long speech is not at all likely to secure more votes, and it is better that a division be taken as early as possible. {: #subdebate-11-0-s6 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The motion is rather peculiar in that no date is proposed from which this payment is to commence. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- A Bill will have to be introduced if the motion be carried. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The motion does not state when the leakage took place, or whether the payment is to 1438 *Tasmania:* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Customs Leakage.* date from the beginning of Federation or from the passing of the motion. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- Certainly from the beginning of Federation, because there is no bookkeeping system after this year. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It seems tome that the motion will involve an immense amount of work. In the first place, in order to arrive at the alleged leakage, all the records of the imports which have passed through the other States into Tasmania during the whole of the period will have to be consulted; and this may prove costly to the Department. I have not been able to ascertain from the speeches of honorable members whether the Customs authorities admit that there has been any leakage. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- The Customs authorities do not admit that there has been any. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It ought to be established that there has been a leakage before any payment such as is proposed can be made. I do not desire to approach this proposal in any hostile spirit, provided a case can be made out that the State of Tasmania has really suffered a disadvantage, and has just grounds for her claim for payment. It is strange that every State except New South Wales is crying out for some special consideration. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Whatspecial consideration is Victoria asking ? New South Wales is asking for very special consideration in the shape of a Federal Capital inaccessible to all but New South Wales members ! {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is not a special consideration; it was an original condition of Federation that the Capital should be in New South Wales. Victoria desires a monopoly of the manufacturing industries and of the markets of the other States, with legislation to prevent competition from outside, as, for instance, in the case of harvesters. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- No such thing ! Harvesters cannot be made in New South Wales ! {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is utter nonsense. Western Australia has received special financial consideration, and now desires a transcontinental railway. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I am only showing that all the States except New South Wales are asking for some special consideration, though New South Wales is really the State that has mainly to foot the bill. It costs New South Wales more to meet the expenses of these claims than it costs any of the other States. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- It is the same cost per head. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- But in the aggregate New South Wales is called upon to pay much more. Nevertheless, I do not wish it to be supposed that I am opposed to the payment of a fair and legitimate claim. Honorable gentlemen who claim concessions for the State which they are representing should substantiate the justice of their claims. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- We have agreed to give *£250,000* to Western Australia. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I have said that every State except New South Wales is obtaining special consideration. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Poor Ma State ! {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- New South Wales has to suffer all the time. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- She can afford to do so. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The fact that a State can afford to be bled is no justification for bleeding it. I, as a representative of " poor Ma State," as the Minister of Trade and Customs has sneeringly called it, must keep an eye upon her interests. Necessity is the only justification for these special grants. I shall not oppose any just claim, but must oppose claims which I consider unjust. For how long is it proposed to continue the special payments to Tasmania ? {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- For nine years. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- The loss complained of has occurred during the nine years which have elapsed since Federation. Henceforth, under the *per capita* distribution, there will not be a loss. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- - How has it been ascertained that there has been an annual loss of *£25,000* during the past nine years ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The facts are in dispute, and must be examined. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The loss which Tasmania has suffered has been variously estimated by those who are supporting her claims, at amounts ranging from *£25,000* to , £40,000 *;* but it is all *ex parte.* No proof of loss has been furnished, and we have no means of ascertaining exactly what the State has lost, or even whether there really has been any loss. Therefore, it would be better to omit from the motion the reference to a specific sum. It can then be ascertained by the officials what the leakage, if any, has been, and the amount thus determined can be provided for on the Estimates. Tasmania: [11 August, 1910.] Customs Leakage. 1439 {: #subdebate-11-0-s7 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Certainly. We have so far had only *ex -parte* statements. The facts can be ascertained by an investigation, and a refund should then be provided for on something like a proper basis, according to the facts as disclosed by the evidence. It would be dangerous to leave out, as is proposed, the words "in Customs leakage," because then the motion would be asking for the payment of *£25,000* a year to Tasmania for no assigned reason. It would make the payment appear as a charitable dole or a gift for no apparent reason. I understand that the State is asking, not for charity, but for a refund to which she is entitled, if the facts as alleged are shown on investigation to exist. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- The honorable member's leader suggested that it would be difficult to prove the leakage alleged, although every one knows that it has occurred. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Every one does not know that. The Treasurer is not sure about it ; and the Minister of Trade and Customs disputes the claim. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- There may be a loss of £2,000 a year. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- If it is admitted that there has been a leakage, the words "in Customs leakage" should be retained. I shall be glad if the honorable member for Grey will withdraw his amendment, so that I may move a prior amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I now move - >That the words " of Twenty-five thousand *pounds "* be left out. The carrying of that amendment will make it possible to fix any amount that may be determined to be the actual loss which Tasmania has suffered. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- The honorable member proposes to draw a blank cheque. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is not so. The motion, if amended as I propose, will read - >That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the State of Tasmania be granted a sum yearly by the Commonwealth for a period of nine years to recoup the said State for the loss sustained in Customs leakage since the advent of Federation. If my amendment is agreed to, I shall propose a subsequent amendment, providing that the sum to be paid shall be such as may be ascertained to be reasonable after an investigation of the facts. The motion will then not be equivalent to the drawing of a blank cheque. {: #subdebate-11-0-s8 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member may not move two amendments. He will have to get some one to move the second amendment for him. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I shall arrange for that. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- I second the amendment. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member may not do that, because he has already spoken; indeed, he has now spoken twice in this debate, once on the main question, and once on the amendment which has been temporarily withdrawn. This shows the inconvenience arising from an irregular way of conducting the proceedings of the House. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- May not my speech be considered to have been withdrawn with the amendment on which it was made? {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Practically that must be taken to have happened ; but the position shows the inconvenience of the loose way of doing business which has prevailed in the past. In the future, I shall not permit the withdrawal of amendments, and now give honorable members notice to that effect. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr Sinclair: -- I second the amendment. {: #subdebate-11-0-s9 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- If the motion be amended as proposed, the House may safely pass it. It is acknowledged to be difficult to say now exactly what loss Tasmania has suffered in Customs leakage. If the amendment be agreed to, it will throw upon the Government the responsibility of ascertaining what is due to Tasmania. When that has been done, the Minister of Trade and Customs can ask for a special grant, based on the facts he will be able to lay before the House. We are not now making a grant. If that were proposed, it would be unconstitutional, because only a Minister of the Crown can bring forward a proposal imposing any charge on the taxpayers. All we are doing is to express our pious belief that Tasmania should be reimbursed for the loss she has sustained through no fault of her own, but through the faults of our system. Surely, therefore, the most sensible course is to say that the amount Tasmania should receive is the amount to which she is shown, after careful inquiry, to be entitled. Has any evidence been adduced sufficient for. this Chamber to come to a definite conclusion as to what that amount really is? The Minister of Trade and Customs estimated the other day that the loss, at the very maximum, would not exceed £15,000. If that is so, it would be absolutely wrong for this House to grant £10,000 in excess. I would like the mover of this motion to express an opinion on this proposition. All he wants is that the injustice shall be rectified ; but he would have a very poor prospect of success in a House like this, constituted of persons representing all sections of the Commonwealth, if he simply said, " We give you no facts; we demand this particular sum of money, and you must give it us." The representatives of other States will give him justice, but how can we find out what justice is until an inquiry has been made? That is all that the honorable member for Lang asks, and I am sure that every honorable member, while feeling sympathy with Tasmania in her exceptional circumstances, feels that he has also another and more personal duty to act as the trustee of the public affairs of the Commonwealth as a whole. The vast bulk of honorable members would be infinitely more disposed to accept the motion as proposed to be amended than as first suggested. It is clear that the Ministry are not too enthusiastic about it. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The Ministry have not taken any action. . I purpose sending the matter to a Committee to investigate the facts. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- Then the Prime Minister should welcome the amendment of the honorable member for Lang to strike out the amendment and leave the question to subsequent investigation. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- That would make it a blank cheque. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- It would not be a blank cheque. {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable, member might just as well knock the motion out straight away. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- If the Committee of inquiry estimated that Tasmania should receive more than £25,000, would the honorable member agree to that? {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I will agree to pay to Tasmania any sum to which a competent tribunal decides that she is entitled owing' to Customs leakages. The honorable member for Denison insinuates that the intention behind the amendment is to defeat the motion by a side wind. That is extremely unjust. The very first words I addressed to the House on the question, when the responsible Ministers refused to express their opinion upon it, was that I was in entire sympathy with Tasmania and that all I wanted to arrive at to justify my voting for the proposal was the facts as they were understood by the Minister in charge of the Department. I am therefore perfectly consistent in advocating an inquiry into the amount due to Tasmania. Tasmanian representatives are asking for something which they are not constitutionally bound to get.' I think they are in equity entitled to it, and it is because of that that I propose to give it to them, but I do not propose to give them either more or less than the amount to which they are fairly entitled, as ascertained by a proper inquiry. The Prime Minister tells us now that he proposes to submit the question to a Committee. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I said that a month' ago. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- It does not matter when the honorable member said it. Does the honorable member for Denison accuse the Prime Minister of trying to side-track the motion when he proposes an investigation? {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Not at all. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- Yet the honorable membet makes that accusation against me when I propose a judicial investigation ! Surely we can deal with this matter apart from party bias, and purely on its merits. Is this a party catchword for subsequent use in Tasmania ? If it is, honorable members will be inundated with this sort of claim upon the Federal Treasury, and the representatives of the larger States will have to be very careful how they meet such demands. I regard the matter as outside of party altogether, because it was strongly urged in this House by the honorable member for Wilmot. and all through the lobbies by the honorable member for Wilmot and the honorable member for Franklin. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- It is not a party question at all. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- However Tasmanian representatives opposite regard it, they cannot say that Ministers, who are responsible to the House on the question, have been mirrors of candour about it. I do not think the Prime Minister has yet explained to the House to what extent he thinks the leakage has occurred. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I explained it in two columns in the press. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The honorable member is always explaining in the press instead of in the House. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That is more clever than accurate. A deputation comprising all the Tasmanian representatives waited on me. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The House is entitled to be consulted in a matter affecting the funds of the Commonwealth. This afternoon the Prime Minister's main anxiety was to postpone the discussion of the motion. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That is not only inaccurate, but is a misleading statement that ought not to be made. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The honorable member turned to the honorable member for Bass and asked him if he would move the postponement of the motion. The honorable member for Bass then got up and moved accordingly. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Quite wrong. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The honorable member for Bass would not have moved the postponement to put off the solution of this question on his own initiative. Every honorable member in the House saw the Prime Minister turn round and suggest to die honorable member for Bass that he should move the adjournment to another date. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- He did it for my own good. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- And, of course, incidentally, to postpone the motion ! I would have preferred that the Prime Minister should give us a full statement of the position as he sees it as head of the Government. We have no right to vote a particular sum to meet a1 difficulty which has not been definitely outlined. We do not know the extent of the money that will be required, and it is of no use pretending that we do know. Let the matter be inquired into by the Prime Minister's Committee, or some other competent body, and on its report let the Prime Minister ask the House to vote a sum. Did the Prime Minister say he had a Committee already? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I did not. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I understand that a month ago he announced that he was going to have a Committee, but apparently he has not acted on that thought. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I propose to send the question to a Committee of the House. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- Surely the responsible Minister could have an investigation made ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- If the honorable member really wants the matter settled he could not have a better way than to send it to a Select Committee. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- So long as the motion is amended by knocking out the amount and leaving it to be settled afterwards by inquiry. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- It does not matter what amount is mentioned in the motion. The Committee will recommend a certain amount, if any. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- But if the motion passed in its present form, would the Government follow the recommendations of the Committee, or obey the order of the House to pay a certain amount? Surely we are not being asked to pass a mere placard ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The honorable member ought to be. satisfied if the Prime Minister says he will appoint a Committee. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- Does the honorable member mean that it will not be necessary in that case to pass the motion at all ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I do not think it matters whether it is passed or not. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The. Ministry ought to allow no motion to pass unless they are prepared to act on it. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Let the debate be adjourned and a Committee appointed. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I am prepared to vote on the motion immediately if the sum is not specified. Let us say that Tasmania should be granted by the Commonwealth a sum to recoup her for the loss sustained in Customs leakage since Federation, the amount to be determined by some tribunal appointed for the purpose. If we amended the motion in that way, it would simply be" a question this afternoon of deciding whether or not we believe that Tasmania is entitled to a special grant on account of having suffered loss as the result of Customs leakage. Personally, I think she is entitled to a grant. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The honorable member is out to block it. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- To be rebuked by the honorable member for blocking anything reminds me of a jungle tale, where the pheasant was rebuked by the rogue elephant for damaging the foliage. I am not attempting to block the proposal. I am simply pointing out that if we pass the motion as proposed to be amended we commit ourselves to nothing more than the principle, and the House will have an absolutely free hand to agree to the amount which will, be named when the responsible Minister asks for authority for a special grant to Tasmania. If the Prime Minister is anxious for the motion to proceed, he will jump at the amendment. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Wonderful ! {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The honorable member says " Wonderful," and always looks as though he felt it, but if he were really sincere in suggesting a Committee he would jump at the opportunity now presented. He cannot go wrong in. accepting the' amendment. It is right into his hands, and if he refuses to give it his sympathy and support it will be clear to the people of Tasmania that his real attitude is what might be expected from a gentleman who says he is appointing a Committee and does nothing, and who asks for the adjournment of a debate that has a chance of being closed. {: #subdebate-11-0-s10 .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr AGAR WYNNE:
Balaclava -- I think that the House should be satisfied that an actual leakage of Customs revenue is suffered by Tasmania, before passing a motion providing for the payment of a sum of money, by way of compensation, to that State. The suggestion made by the Prime Minister is reasonable, and I think that we ought to adopt it. If a Select Committee be appointed, and, upon its investigation of the facts, reports that there has been a leakage, then we shall be justified in voting for the payment of whatever sum it determines Tasmania has lost. The statistics show that, prior to Federation, Tasmanian imports from the mainland were twice as large as were her oversea imports. It would therefore appear that the loss of revenue suffered by Tasmania since Federation has been in respect of Customs duties that were collected on goods imported direct from the mainland. During the first year after the establishment of Federation, the Customs revenue of Tasmania fell off to the extent of £100,000. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- And it has since fallen off to the extent of .£150,000 per annum. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr AGAR WYNNE: -- This shows that a great part of the Customs . revenue derived by Tasmania in pre-Federation days was in respect of goods exported from the mainland to that State. On the other hand, we find that her exports to the mainland have increased to the extent of 50 per cent, since Federation. It would appear, therefore, that Tasmania must have gained considerably; and that, instead of taking the statement of the Government Statistician of the State that the loss has amounted to ,£40,000 a year - a statement which must be mere guesswork - we should have regard to the views of the officers of the Department of Trade and Customs. They have at their disposal better material, and are in a better position to determine the actual leakage, if any, than is the Government Statistician of any State. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- But they do not see the goods in respect of which the loss of Customs revenue occurs. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr AGAR WYNNE: -- No; but their great experience should guide them. They can take the average of the imports and exports from one State to another during a given period, and also the Customs value per head of the population of each State. In the circumstances, therefore, it seems to me that the materials at the disposal of the Customs officials should enable them to supply information better than any mere guesswork on the part of a Government Statistician. I am not suggesting that Tasmania is not entitled to any money. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The Treasury of Tasmania has lost money; but the people of that State have become wealthier since Federation. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr AGAR WYNNE: -- No doubt they have gained considerably by reason of their increased exports. I think that the mover of the motion ought to be well satisfied with the offer of the Prime Minister to refer this question to a Committee to report to this House, and that the people of Tasmania ought to feel that they are going to receive justice at the hands of the Commonwealth. {: #subdebate-11-0-s11 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- From the outset of this agitation, 1 have had in view, as every representative of Tasmania knows, a definite and distinct policy. The Premier of Tasmania was good enough to see me on the subject ; and, in the course of a rather lengthy interview, I went into the whole question, not only with him, but with every representative of Tasmania in this House. I discussed the position with them ; and it seems to me that once we have a fixed basis to work upon, the matter is simplicity itself. On the one hand, the Tasmanian authorities, including the Government Statistician of that State, allege that, since the transfer of the Department to the Commonwealth, serious losses have been suffered by Tasmania, by reason of a Customs leakage. The allegation is that there has been a Customs leakage, due, in some instances, to laxity on the part of the Department, but largely owing to a peculiar disposition on the part of Tasmanians to visit the mainland, purchase dutiable goods here, and to carry them home, either on their backs, or in their baggage ; so that Inter-State certificates are not issued in respect of them, and Tasmania is thus deprived of considerable revenue. I do not wish to discuss the question of which State or States reaps the advantage; but the Commonwealth itself certainly derives none from this practice. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- The whole advantage is gained by Victoria and New South Wales. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- I do not wish to discuss that phase of the question; but, obviously, the Commonwealth revenue is not benefited to the extent of a penny by reason of the remissness, if any, that occurs in this respect. During the period referred to, the Commonwealth has returned to the States, not only the three-fourths of Customs and Excise revenue to which they are entitled, but, in addition, over £6,000,000 of surplus revenue. That being so, the Commonwealth, as such, has not benefited to the extent of a penny by reason of the lapses, or want of vigilance, alleged on the part of Customs officers. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- We have recognised the gain as being between State and State up to the present time. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Quite so. The case presented by the parties concerned - and there are others who wish to help them in a way foreign to the original request - is that Tasmania has suffered because of this Customs leakage. They say that oversea goods, on which Customs duties have been paid, have been purchased on the mainland by visitors from Tasmania, and carried home by them in such a way that that State has not been credited with the amount of duty collected upon those goods. So far as I am concerned, that explanation, in itself, is not sufficient. The Commonwealth figures do not at all agree with those of the Tasmanian authorities. That being so, I, as the Treasurer of the Commonwealth, charged with the care of its finances, am not in a position to invite the House to support any such motion as this until actual facts have been discovered to justify it. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Can we ever discover them if people carry dutiable goods from the mainland to Tasmania, and no record of those goods is made by the Department ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- There are certain facts which could readily be placed before a comparatively small Select Committee. I do not wish to prejudge the recommendation of such a Committee, but I think that we should be able to place certain facts before it, and that it should be in a position, from the evidence submitted, to come to a reasonable conclusion, and to bring up a report which could be discussed and, perhaps, approved in a way that is impossible in connexion with a motion of this kind. There is, after all, merely a haphazard statement as to the actual loss sustained, and it is, therefore, desirable that both parties should be heard, and a decision arrived at. It is not a big question, and I do not think that we should go beyond the issue actually involved. That is the view I have held from the first. I have submitted it to the honorable member for Bass ; but it would have been out of place for me. to intervene before the honorable member had had time to ventilate this question in the House. He was entitled to ventilate it in any way he thought fit. A Government need not necessarily take serious notice of such a motion as this, even if it were carried. That, however, would not be a very dignified attitude for the Ministry to take up. I think that it is desirable that all the words after the opening word, "That," should be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " a Committee of this House be appointed to inquire into and report upon the alleged leakage of Customs revenue or loss to the State of Tasmania during the nine years since Federation." That offers a sensible way out of the difficulty. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It is practically my amendment. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Such a proposition would be in accord with what I said a month ago to a deputation of representatives of Tasmania which interviewed me on the subject. I could only make a statement to them. I could not suggest that they ought not to say this or that in the House. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- They were quite within their rights in bringing this motion before the House. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- Undoubtedly, and it would have been impertinence on my part to say that they should take any other course. The Government will give very serious consideration to the report of a Committee appointed to investigate the whole of the facts. We must have a reason for taking action, and must endeavour, in such a matter, to deal justly as between Tasmania, or any other State that can make out a good case, and the Commonwealth. The facts being in dispute, it would be hardly worthy of the National Parliament to pass in a haphazard fashion a declaratory resolution which, after all, would not be binding on the Government. The question involves the discussion of one of the gravest principles associated with the finances of the Commonwealth. No responsible Minister could accept such a motion as this, which might mean the initiation of proposals leading us anywhere and everywhere. It would not be a dignified and national course of procedure to follow. The Government take the responsibility of refusing to initiate proposals of this kind, which might endanger or embarrass the true policy of the Federation. For these and many other reasons, but mainly for the purpose of ascertaining the actual facts, I ask the honorable member for Bass to agree to his motion being amended so as to provide for the appointment of a Select Committee. I am prepared to accept any reasonable nomination, and I suggest, without consulting any of the parties concerned, that we should have a Committee of seven, comprising two representatives of Tasmania and one representative of each of the other States. I suggest two representatives of Tasmania because, if there were only one, and he became indisposed, that State, which ought always to have a representative on the Committee to present its case, would be unrepresented. What the Government desire is to get at the facts, and not to cause any delay, because the sooner we arrive at a determination the better. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Does the Prime Minister desire to move the appointment of the Select Committee, or would he rather an honorable member did so ? {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- It is the usual and courteous practice to allow the honorable member who introduces the subject to move the appointment of the Select Committee, though I had jotted down some names, which, however, I shall not suggest. I appeal to Tasmanian members, and to the whole House, not, in this important matter, to establish a precedent in the National Parliament that may lead to the gravest financial difficulty, or to such wrangling as ought never to take place between the States. {: #subdebate-11-0-s12 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- - I agree almost wholly with the honorable member for Balaclava, who suggests that there should be an inquiry before an assessment is made. The honorable member for Lang had that object in view, only he proposed to compass it by two amendments instead of one. There ought to be an investigation into this whole question, which has been before the House for years. Two or three Treasurers have considered the matter sympathetically after investigation with such resources as were at their hands. Personally, I do not care much for the way in which the motion is worded, because I take a broader view than would be indicated by any of the terms used. For instance, I am not satisfied that the motion should be based merely on the ground of the Customs leakage, though I admit there may be a very good case on that score alone. I prefer, as I have already said, to take a broad Federal view. There is no doubt that, apart altogether from Customs leakage, Tasmania has been dealt a heavy blow by Federation. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The Tasmanian Treasury has been dealt a heavy blow. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Quite so; but 1 am not so much concerned with that aspect. While the Treasury of Tasmania may have been dealt a heavy blow, we must remember that what has not gone into the Treasury has been left in the pockets of the Tasmanian people. I am speaking purely from a revenue and financial point of view. I do not say that all this money has gone into the pockets of the people, but a great proportion has ; and we are on sound ground if we put aside those considerations and take the broad general effect which Federation has had on this small State. I have an opinion, which amounts almost to a conviction, that, owing to the superior organization of industry in the two large States, Tasmania has been hit very severely in her manufactures alone. Those manufactures, since Federation, have not prospered in anything like the same ratio as those of the larger, more populous, and better organized States. In this connexion, Tasmania has been affected very adversely by the setting up of Inter-State Free Trade. We ought not to allow one of our family to suffer in this way. If honorable members like, we may regard Tasmania as the Benjamin of the family, and entitled to consideration at the hands of the Treasurer for the time being on the broad general ground that in a number of ways she has been adversely affected through the operation of Inter- State Free Trade. 1 suggest that all the words after " That " be struck out, and the following inserted : - >A Select Committee be appointed to consider the question of a special grant to the State of Tasmania, in consequence of the adverse way in which her finances have been affected by Federation. Tasmania: [11 August, 1910.] Customs Leakage. 1445 {: #subdebate-11-0-s13 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The Prime Minister's draft amounts to much the same as my suggested amendment. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The representatives of Tasmania will see the difference, because, to speak of a special grant is to pre- judge the matter. I suggest a report on the alleged loss. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I suggest a special grant, merely as a matter for consideration. We desire to ascertain whether such a grant is justified on the broad general ground of the adverse way in which Tasmania's finances have been affected. I further suggest that the Committee should consist of the Treasurer, the right honorable member for Swan, the honorable member for Hume, the Minister of Trade and Customs, the honorable member for Lang, the honorable member for Bass, and the honorable member for Franklin. This *personnel* is representative of all the States, and, including those who have made a special study of the question, is thus calculated to command the confidence of the House. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- To me it is obvious that the Treasurer cannot sit on the Committee. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- It is an immemorial custom, which courtesy alone would require, that a Minister shall be a member of a Select Committee which has to do with his own Department. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I think it ought to be left to the mover of the motion to suggest the names. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I am merely making a suggestion. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I must say that I feel myself quite unable to act on a Committee of that kind. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- I had already drafted an amendment similar to that suggested by the honorable member for Parramatta, and containing the names of the proposed members. {: #subdebate-11-0-s14 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I may say that there is already an amendment before the House to omit the words " Twenty-five thousand pounds." **Mr. McWILLlAMS** (Franklin) [6.5].- I must say that I am disappointed at the trend the debate has taken to-day. I do not know what has happened in the inter val, but there is quite a different tone in the reception of this matter f rom what we saw last week. As to what the Prime Minister said, I submit to him that this proposal is not in itself a precedent. The honorable gentleman is himself proposing, and it has always been proposed, that a special grant should be made to Western Australia ; and to that proposal neither the people nor the representatives of Tasmania have ever offered one word of protest. Then, again, the Prime Minister urged that this matter should not be sprung on honorable members and passed without investigation; but I contend that it has been thoroughly and completely investigated. It was investigated by the honorable member for Swan, when Treasurer, and by the honorable member for Hume, when Minister of Trade and Customs ; and, on the report from the head of the Department, the latter Minister estimated the leakage at, I think, *£25,000.* {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- There is no record to show that. {: #subdebate-11-0-s15 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- We have the assurance of the honorable gentleman himself. The fact is on record to the extent that the honorable member for Hume, as Minister of Trade and Customs, wrote to **Mr. Wade,** Premier of New South Wales, and to the late **Sir Thomas** Bent, Premier of Victoria, pointing out that leakage had occurred, and asking them to recognise the position of Tasmania. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That was a matter between State and State. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Did the honorable member for Hume, when Minister, state any sum? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I think I estimated the leakage at *£20,000.* {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I know that when the honorable member for Hume was Minister, he estimated the leakage at from *£20,000* to *£25,000.* {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Quite so. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- We have been in consultation with Ministers of Trade and Customs for years on this subject, but it was formerly recognised that we could not bring it before this Parliament, because, as the Prime Minister has said, it was a matter between State and State. **Sir Thomas** Bent was prepared to recognise his responsibility if **Mr. Wade** would do likewise, but **Mr. Wade** declined, and **Sir Thomas** Bent would not act on his' own initiative. 1446 *Tasmania:* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Customs Leakage.* {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Surely the honorable member does not expect the Premier of New South Wales to do justice to anybody ! {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I have tried as far as possible to prevent party feeling entering into this matter, and God help the interests of any State if their recognition or non-recognition of justice depends on party considerations ! I gave this motion exactly the same support when it was moved by the honorable member for Wilmot, as I think the honorable member for Bass will admit I have given to his proposal. This is a question of right and justice. The Customs officials are the very worst authority we could take on the subject, because, to appeal to them, is like asking the policeman if he has kept order on his beat. This leakage is a matter that does not come before the Department, because if they had seen the leakage it could not exist. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I think **Dr. Wollaston** recognised that there was a leakage. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- Yes; when he went into the matter; and I think the present Minister of Trade and Customs will find that recognition on record. At any rate, it is a matter of public knowledge that **Dr. Wollaston,** when at the head of the Department, did recognise that there was a leakage. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- But it was never estimated at more than *£2,000* or *£3,000.* {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- On the report of **Dr. Wollaston,** the honorable member for Hume, as Minister, estimated the leakage at *£20,000* or *£25,000.* {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- The Customs officers say that there may be a loss at the present time of between *£2,000* and *£3,000* a year. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- Whoever says that is a fool, or has not taken the trouble to look into the matter. One need only visit the northern parts of Tasmania to discover that thousands of pounds' worth of goods are sent there constantly from Victoria for which Inter- State certificates are not obtained, and of whose value the Customs officials, therefore, know nothing. Apparently the honorable member for Bass finds that the support which he had a reason to expect for this motion is being withheld, and is, therefore, forced to agree to the appointment of a Select Committee. I am glad that inquiry is to be made by a Committee, and not by some other body. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- The proposal is not an afterthought with me. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I believe that the House would have agreed some weeks ago to the appointment of a Committee, but' we who support the motion thought that it was only necessary to make out a fair case - which, I submit, has been done - to obtain justice from the National Parliament. However, if honorable members will not do more than agree to the appointment of a Select Committee, we must be content. I am certain that the report of the Committee will show that Tasmania's annual loss has not been less than the amount named in the motion. {: #subdebate-11-0-s16 .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton .- Before the amendment is put, the honorable member for Bass should indicate what he intends to do. I have listened to the arguments adduced by the representatives of Tasmania without being convinced that the loss to the State has been as great as they have declared it to be. No doubt the honorable member for Lang will be only too pleased to withdraw his amendment if that course is necessary to provide for the appointment of a Select Committee. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I am willing to withdraw my amendment to allow an amendment for the appointment of a Select Committee to be proposed. {: #subdebate-11-0-s17 .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr JENSEN:
Bass .- What I desire the House to do is to agree to the appointment of a Select Committee, with power to examine persons and papers, to inquire into and report upon the alleged Customs leakage, and any losses the State has suffered since the advent of Federation, the Committee to be composed of the honorable members for Hume, Herbert, Gippsland, Adelaide, Swan, Franklin, and myself. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I am willing to agree to that. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I do not think that the gentlemen suggested are sufficiently representative of the House, and, therefore, object to the withdrawal of the amendment. Amendment negatived. Amendment (by **Mr. Scullin)** agreed to - >That all the words after the word " That "' be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words : - " a Select Committee be appointed, with power to send for persons and' papers, to inquire into and report upon the alleged Customs leakage of Tasmania and any losses the said State has suffered since the advent of Federation." Amendment (by **Mr. Frazer)** proposed - >That the following words be added : - " Such Committee to consist of **Mr. Jensen, Sir William** Lyne, **Mr. Bamford, Mr. Wise, Mr..** Tasmania: [11 August, 1910.] Customs Leakage. 1447 Roberts, **Sir John** Forrest, and **Mr. McWilliams** ; three to be a quorum. {: #subdebate-11-0-s18 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- Only two of the members named in the amendment belong to the Opposition, and it is the invariable practice, especially when the House is unanimously agreeing to a proposal of this kind, to make the Committee fairly representative of the parties in the House. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- I have no objection to the substitution of any other names. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I prefer that the honorable member should make the selection, but there should be another representative of the Opposition. {: .speaker-KK9} ##### Mr Jensen: -- Why not substitute the name of the honorable member for Lang for that of the honorable member for Gippsland ? {: #subdebate-11-0-s19 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP -- In my opinion, the State which is supposed to have obtained an advantage from its dealings with Tasmania should be represented on the Committee. I should not object to the substitution of the name of the honorable member for Bendigo, or of the honorable member for Balaclava, for that of the honorable member for Gippsland, to meet the objection of the honorable member for Parramatta. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- The honorable member himself is not on the Committee. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- No. I do not wish to be a member of it. If the name of the honorable member for Gippsland is removed, that of another Victorian should be substituted for it. {: #subdebate-11-0-s20 .speaker-KYJ} ##### Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo .- I shall not be able to spare the time to act on the proposed Committee, and, therefore, suggest that the honorable member for Balaclava be a member of it. The charge against Victoria is that she has been credited with revenue that should have been credited to Tasmania, and, therefore, that State should be represented on the Committee. I move - >That the amendment be amended by leaving out the name " Wise " and inserting in lieu thereof the name " Agar Wynne." {: #subdebate-11-0-s21 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert .- I agree in part with the remarks of the honorable member for Parramatta, and as this side is fairly represented on the Committee, suggest that my name be left off, and that of the honorable member for Moreton substituted. Amendment of the amendment agreed to. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Question, as amended, resolved in the affirmative. Resolved - >That a Select Committee be appointed, with power to send for persons and- papers, to inquire into and report upon the alleged Customs leakage of Tasmania and any losses the said State has suffered since the advent of Federation. Such Committee to consist of **Mr. Jensen, Sir William** Lyne, **Mr. Bamford, Mr. Agar** Wynne, **Mr. Roberts, Sir John** Forrest, and **Mr. McWil-** . liams; three to be a quorum. SUPPLY *(Formal).* Old- Age Pensions. - Rifle Clubs. - Weighing Machines. - Rifle Ranges. - Newspaper Criticism of the Fusion Government. - Post and Telegraph Department : Overtime, Sorters' Second Test Examination, Telephone Facilities in Country Districts, Miranda Telephone. Wanstead Postal Business, Residential Quarters in Country Post Offices. Question - That **Mr. Speaker** do now leave the chair, and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply - proposed. {: #subdebate-11-0-s22 .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton .- In my division lives a man who has worked for the Queensland Government for something like forty years, receiving the pittance of 6s. 6d. a day, and who, nine or ten years ago, met with an accident which incapacitated him. By careful saving he had managed to put together enough to buy 120 acres of land. When he got out of work, he tried to sell this land. It was put up by auction, and he was offered *£170* for it. He did not consider this a fair value, and he declined to accept it. His son then offered to take the land from him on time-payment at the rate of *£3* per month. It was only a family arrangement between the father and the son. Some two years ago, he applied for a pension under the Queensland Act, but his application was refused, as he then had in his name this land, which was estimated to be worth considerably more than *£170.* He made a sworn statement before the police magistrate that he did possess theland at the time, which was only partly true. Subsequently he transferred the land to his son in accordance with the arrangement made between them, but which was only a verbal arrangement. He then applied for a pension under the Commonwealth Act, hut was told that he had purposely transferred the land to his son in consideration 1448 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* of love and affection so that he might participate in the benefits of the Commonwealth Old-age Pensions Act, and his application was refused. I brought the matter under the notice of the Treasurer's predecessor, and it was reported on. I admit that the papersare somewhat against the applicant, but I know from personal experience that the old gentleman is in a very poor way indeed, and has nothing whatever to live upon except the amount the son gives him - something like *£3* per month - which the son may cease to contribute at any time. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Has the honorable member any new facts to put forward ? I shall be glad to go into the matter if the honorable member will come to the Treasury. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- The only new facts are that the property has been transferred in accordance with the verbal agreement entered into nine years ago. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Honorable members hardly know the magnitude of this oldage pensions business. We have 600 of these cases a month, and if they were all discussed here, Parliament would have time for nothing else. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- I have already asked to have the matter looked into, and it was simply referred back to the police magistrate, with instructions to make a further report. His further report was that the land had been transferred in consideration of love and affection in order to evade the provisions of the Old-age Pensions Act. 1 and others know that that verbal agreement was entered into nine years ago, and that the transfer has been made in consideration of a sum that has been paid by monthly instalments, amounting to over *£170* {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -i will look into it. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- Not only the old man, but his wife, is entitled to a pension. After some forty years of service to the State of Queensland, he is now thrown upon his own resources, which I think the Act never intended should happen. I could point to cases where less deserving individuals have received pensions, but shall not do so. I am pleased to get the Treasurer's assurance that he will look into and thoroughly investigate this case, not from a red-tape point of view, but in accordance with the intentions of the Act. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m.* {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- At a conference of those interested in the dairying industry, held in Brisbane on 3rd June last, to dis cuss **Mr. Lockyer's** report, the following resolution, amongst others, was carried - >That in view of the fact that it is practically impossible for reasons well known to the trade to insure that every box of butter will contain exactly the same weight in spite of every care and honest intention, the butter manufacturers of Queensland consider that fines for short weight should be abolished, and that factories should be allowed to make up any deficiency to standard weight. I do not wish to go into the merits of the report, and would not like to repeat here without the Minister's consent the remark that he made with reference to that resolution. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I do not mind giving the honorable member permission to repeat what I said about that. I believe in 16 oz. to the lb. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- That is an insinuation that those who supported that motion do not believe in 16 oz. to the lb. A subsequent motion carried was - >That the Department of Agriculture be approached for the purpose of providing more suitable sensitive scales. The Agricultural Department of Queensland are administering the Commerce Act for the Customs Department, and therefore they are no doubt interested in the question of having suitable machines for weighing produce for export. In the Brisbane *Courier* a few days ago, a little light was thrown on this matter, and that is what I wish to refer to to-night. Perhaps the Minister will be relieved to learn that I do not intend to go into the very vexed question of grade marking, or weights and measures. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I expect to hear the honorable member on that about a fortnight hence, on the occasion of the deputation. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- The article in the Brisbane *Courier* is as follows - >According to a British firm of scale makers, weighing machines and scales need not be of so high a grade for Australian use as is necessary to satisfy the British authorities. Writing to the Acting Comptroller-General of Customs, in reply to some inquiries as to invoice values, the firm said : - " We should also like to explain the several patterns in our export list do not appear in the Home list. The weights and measures regulations in Australia being less strict than they are here since the Weights and Measures Act1907, the class of some machines sold for export is not of a sufficiently high grade to enable them to pass for trade use in this country." We have passed a Commerce Act to protect the British or foreign buyer against inferior quality, light weights, and so on; but while we have made provision for weighing our produce when it is tendered for export, no provision has been made to see that the machines that are imported are of the high standard required, for instance, in London. I am pleased to say that we are not dependent solely upon imported weighing machines. In Brisbane, we are manufacturing machines of a very high standard. It has come quite as a shock to me to know that machines such as Fairbank's, or the Avery machines, which have had a large sale throughout Australia, are not up to the standard required by the British Board of Trade. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- The letter does not say that. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- It says that it is not necessary that machines exported from Great Britain should be of the high standard required for Home use. The question of weights in the industry with which I have been connected has been a vexed one for the last twenty-five years. We found ourselves in a difficult position. We imported a machine from Denmark, for which we paid £50, thinking we would get an absolutely accurate instrument. We have had our consignments of butter in forty, fifty, or a hundred box lots held up because there was, perhaps, one box which turned the scale at 56 J lbs., and the Customs Department have asked us to sign a declaration that we had committed a breach of the law. The Minister might do something to protect the Australian trade against . the importation of inferior machines. If present legislation is not sufficient to allow the machines to be graded as they come in, some measure should be introduced to give the Minister power to grade imports, if we have to submit to the grading of exports, so that our own people may be protected against shoddy stuff from other countries. If that does not commend itself to the Minister as a good remedy, perhaps he may be able to do something through the High Commissioner by intimating to these people in London that we want only the best for Australia. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- It is the State Governments that will have to take action to bring their weights and measures into conformity with those of the Board of Trade. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- I am pleased to notice that the Minister will shunt some duties on to the State Governments. I hope he will take that view in regard to the land tax. {: .speaker-JOK} ##### Mr Beard: -- They will not take it on. {: #subdebate-11-0-s23 .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- -Then perhaps they will not take this on. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Then we shall do it. {: .speaker-KRN} ##### Mr SINCLAIR: -- I am pleased to have the Minister's assurance that he will give the matter sympathetic consideration. I am thankful to him for what he has already done, for I notice from yesterday's *Herald* that he has sent a copy of this letter to the various State Premiers. The position I take up is that the Commonwealth Government check our exports, and so check the work done by these machines, if imported machines are used, and they might also take in hand the question of seeing that only the best machines are put on the market from foreign countries. {: #subdebate-11-0-s24 .speaker-KW8} ##### Mr JOHN THOMSON:
Cowper -- - I wish to bring under the notice of the Postmaster-General some of the disabilities for which his Department is responsible. Although the honorable gentleman is not present, I trust that his colleagues will bring under his notice a matter which, I hope, will engage his earnest attention, as soon as the facts are put before him. I refer to the delay in the construction of telephone lines in country districts. We were led to believe from' remarks made in this House a few weeks ago, that it was the intention, not only of the Government, hut of the Parliament itself, that telephone facilities should be placed at the disposal of all persons in country districts. That promise, however, is not being realized. Whilst I admit that these works cannot be carried out in a few weeks, I would remind the House that in a number of cases applications for telephone extensions have engaged the attention of the Department for a considerable time. Notwithstanding the urgent representations made by those directly concerned, as well as by their parliamentary representatives, they have been delayed year in and year out, and we do not seem to be able to reach finality. Applications are made for the construction of lines in country districts; the severe terms imposed by the Department are complied with, the necessary deposits are lodged, and guarantees insuring the Department, in some cases, against loss, for a period of seven years, are signed, yet no attempt is made to carry out the works. We were told at first that the cause of the delay was that the Parliament had failed to vote sufficient to cover the whole expenditure necessary. In last year's Estimates, however, the sum placed at the disposal of the Department was larger than that voted on any previous occasion. The amount asked for was voted, and. indeed, I have never known the Estimates of the Department to be reduced. This increased vote having been made available, the next excuse offered by the responsible officers for the delay in carrying out these urgent works was that they could not obtain the requisite number of skilled, experienced men to supervise the erection of the lines. After tenders have been invited in some cases, the further excuse is offered by the Department that the material necessary to complete the work is not available. In such cases, we have to wait the acceptance of tenders for the supply of that material. 1 dare say that honorable members are aware that the usual practice followed by the Department is to call for tenders for the erection of the poles, and the fixing of the wires, the Department itself supplying the wire, insulators, and other material. During last session I and another honorable member waited on the then Postmaster-General in regard to this matter, and found him most sympathetic. I believe that he did what he could in the way of urging his officers to recommend suitable men as supervisors. He was prepared to agree to the temporary appointment ot additional hands ; but for some reason or other these men have not been made available. The honorable gentleman communicated with, his officers in New South Wales, with the result that they placed three more men on the supervising staff for that State. Instead of their services being utilized, however, as intended by the then Postmaster- General, their addition to the staff was taken advantage of to enable leave that had accumulated to be given to the men in that particular branch. 1 may say, in passing, that I have no fault to find with the granting of holidays to the men. My complaint is that they have not been able to get them before. These additional men, at all events, were not used for the purpose intended, and the position is not improving. If anything, it is getting worse. To substantiate my statement, and to illustrate the difficulty that I have experienced in endeavouring to have these works carried out, I propose to read a letter which I received from the Department a few days ago, and which I am afraid is typical of many received by representatives of other districts. This letter, which was addressed to me from the Postmaster-General's Department on 29th July last, reads as follows - > **Sir, -** With reference to' your inquiry .of .the 8th instant as to the position of the matter of the proposed erection of a telephone line between Wauchope and Long Flat, New South > >Wales, I have the honour to inform you the Deputy Postmaster-General, Sydney, who was asked for a report on the subject, advises as follows in regard thereto : - > >On the nth May last **Mr. J.** Thomson, M.P., submitted the names of the proposed obligors for the line in question, the erection of which is warranted under " Guarantee " conditions. As. however, the line has been listed by the Acting Senior Inspector and the Manager, Telegraph Branch, 73rd in order of urgency on the list of similar works, and as it is considered that only forty-three of such works can be undertaken during the current financial year, **Mr. Thomson** was informed on the 17th June, 1910, of the position of the line on the list, and that there is little or no prospect of its being erected during the year 1910-n. Such a state of things is not creditable either to the Department or to the House. We encourage people to believe that we are prepared to grant these facilities. We talk in an airy way about our desire to enable people in country districts to communicate with each other by telephone, but we ought not to lead them to believe that such facilities will be granted within a certain rime. We certainly ought not to ask them to send in the necessary deposits, and to sign the required guarantee, when there is no prospect of the works for which they ask being carried out for at least two years. Communications in respect to the line mentioned in the letter 1 have just read, have been passing between the Department and myself since 1907, and it would appear that we are not to get any further ahead before, at the earliest, 1911. The Appropriation Bill, as a rule, is not passed until December, with the result that the Department has no time to call for tenders for the supply of material and the carrying out of these works before the expiration of the financial year. I hope that the Postmaster-General will take this matter into his serious consideration, and see whether he cannot do something to grant the relief sought. The public ought not to be misled. I shall have to place myself in more direct communication with the Department, but I take this opportunity to ventilate the matter, so that the public may know the difficulties with which honorable members are confronted in trying to press upon the Department the claims of their constituents. {: #subdebate-11-0-s25 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs .- I wish to direct the attention of the Minister of Home Affairs to a matter that is causing dissatisfaction in many country districts. The Department seems to have laid down the rule that residential quarters shall not be provided in connexion with new country post-offices. In many country towns where new postal buildings have been recently erected, postmasters find it utterly impossible to secure suitable residences for themselves and their families. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'malley: -- Is not this a matter for the Postmaster-General's Department ? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- It concerns both that Department and the Department of Home Affairs. 1 take it that the Minister agrees with my contention, and will see that his colleague does the right thing. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr Batchelor: -- Is not the policy decided by the Postmaster-General's Department? {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Yes. As a matter of fact, I brought this subject under the notice of the Deputy Postmaster-General in Queensland about two months ago, and was informed that it was proposed to hold a conference of officers representing the Department of Home Affairs and the PostmasterGeneral's Department. It is evident, therefore, that the matter relates to the two Departments. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr Batchelor: -- I suppose that it lies between the two. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- And, between the two, it is falling to the ground. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- It seems to go from Department to Department. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- No doubt the honorable member for Calare has a similar grievance. This complaint, which is a substantial one, has been brought under my notice by several Progress Associations and two or three local governing bodies. I should like particularly to mention the position at Oakey and Jondaryan. If the honorable member will look into those two cases, he will find that strong protests have been forwarded. The question is a very pressing one, and is urgent for the reason that T understand that the Minister will possibly be calling presently for tenders for the erection of new post-offices. In accordance with the practice always followed by his Department - the practice of having plans prepared some time before the Estimates are passed, so that tenders may be called as soon as the money is available - I am sure that the honorable gentleman, with that business-like alacrity which he displays in connexion with his own private affairs, will have a number of these plans in readiness. I ask him to see that the plans for new post-offices make provision for proper residential quarters in townships where it is impossible for officers to lease private residences. If it is intended to arrange for the conference that I have mentioned, I hope that it will be convened forthwith, or that the Minister will, at all events, have the question determined before the Estimates are introduced. {: #subdebate-11-0-s26 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare -- I wish to emphasize the complaint made by the honorable member for Cowper. This grievance is not a matter of yesterday. The position has been unsatisfactory in New South Wales for some years. For a couple of years we were informed that the trouble was due to want of funds. The stereotyped reply to requests for telephone extensions and new mail services was that the matter would receive attention when funds were provided. Very often it was intimated that the requisite funds were not provided in the then current year's Estimates, and that provision would be made for them in those for the ensuing year. Last year the climax was reached when we were informed that all the funds necessary for the works in New: South Wales were being voted, and assured that all the causes of the trouble would be forthwith removed. We find, However, that the trouble remains, though the grounds are shifted. Instead of it being a matter of funds, we are told that there is a lack of material, and that there is not a sufficient staff of supervising officers. If I understood aright the letter read by the honorable member for Cowper, there are about seventy requests for services, but that the staff is able to cope with' only about thirty-three in the current year, leaving some twenty-seven to be dealt with next year. The demands of the community are not stationary, but growing; and next year we shall find these twenty-seven necessary services supplemented by a large number of fresh requests. I admit that in the past we have been asking the Department to " make bricks without straw." If we do not provide sufficient money or enable the Department to engage the necessary staff, the work cannot be carried out; and this is a matter which should engage the serious attention of those in authority. A properly organized Department would see that provision was made for the necessary staff when the money was being voted ; but apparently the whole business is carried on in a haphazard or piecemeal way, so that when there is sufficient money provided, it *v* discovered there is insufficient material for the work with which the staff is competent 1452 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* to deal. This state of affairs is not at all creditable to the Administration, and it causes a good deal of hardship to that deserving section of the community who are doing laborious pioneering work in the outlying districts. I hope, however, that under new management better conditions will prevail . {: #subdebate-11-0-s27 .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot .- The telephone is a great convenience in country districts, -and is often an inducement to people to settle in the remoter parts of the States. From one end to the other of Australia land settlement is urgently desired, and it could, I think, be materially promoted by a little attention to telephone extension. I should like to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can see his way to do away with the guarantee system, which falls very heavily on that deserving class to which the honorable member for Calare has referred. In my opinion, it is high time the Department rose to the occasion, and removed this obstacle to the extension of a very useful adjunct of civilization. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Where would the honorable member draw the line? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- It is for the PostmasterGeneral toframe the policy; and I am sure that if he gives this matter attention he will be able to devise some system more satisfactory than the present one. I understand that it is the intention of the Government to introduce further legislation in connexion with old-age pensions; and it seems to me that there ought to be some method of reviewing the pensions already granted! If we may take notice of what we hear when travelling about, there are, apparently, a good many people in receipt of pensions who are not deserving of them, while many others, who are really entitled, are debarred on technical grounds. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- The Department is very keen on that point ! {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I do not think that in the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act there is any provision for such a system of review as I suggest. There is another point in connexion with old-age pensions to which the Ministry might direct their attention. In many cases men who apply for pensions have been separated from their wives for years, but because the latter happen to own property, the husbands have their pensions reduced to the extent of the interest on that property, though they derive no benefit whatever from it. I feel confident that that was not the intention of Parliament when the Act was passed ; and I hope that this injustice may be removed. The time is coming, in my opinion, when we shall have to seriously consider some system of collateral contributions in connexion with these pensions, such as there is in Germany, assisted by subsidies from the Government, or a system such as is adopted in the case of friendly societies. A policy of this kind is very necessary, because it will remove the tendency that these pensions have to sap the self-reliance of the people, and, further, it will make for the permanence of the system. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- Does the honorable member think that people simply live to claim old-age pensions? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- No; but the prevalent disposition to run to the Government for everything certainly has a tendency to sap the self-reliance of the community. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- At sixty-five years of age? {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr ATKINSON: -- I hope that it is the object of every man to so order his life as not to need an old-age pension ; but if the suggestion I have made were acted upon it would give those contributors who were not in need of a pension the satisfaction of knowing that they were helping their less fortunate fellow citizens. {: #subdebate-11-0-s28 .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera .- I desire to call attention to the slow rate of progress in the establishment of rifle ranges throughout the country districts of Victoria. In my own constituency, which is, perhaps, the largest in area in the State, there is much ground for complaint on this score, and it is much to be regretted, seeing that the rifle clubs, placed on a proper basis and efficiently managed, could be rendered a most potential means of support to the regular lines of defence within the Commonwealth. There are large centres with quite inadequate target accommodation, and with no places where the various clubs can centralize for regular competition ; and, no doubt, money could be profitably expended in this connexion. The defence policy will, no doubt, be debated when the Defence Bill or the Estimates are before us, but I may say that we shall never get the best out of our rifle clubs unless some form of compulsion is introduced so that reasonable shooting efficiency may be insured. The adult section of the community, who are, perhaps, beyond the provisions contemplated under Lord Kitchener's scheme, could, I think, by means of the rifle clubs, with the aid of compulsion, be made good shots, and thus rendered of value to the Defence Forces. However, in order to justify expenditure in this direction a great deal more target accommodation will have to be provided ; and, further, the Department could, with great advantage, institute a thorough system of inspection, with the view not only of providing that accommodation, but of encouraging the formation of new clubs. It is necessary, by establishing competition between small clubs, to create 'that spirit of emulation which makes so directly for efficiency. The honorable member for Wannon and myself have had various interviews regarding the establishment of a rifle range in his constituency, and I have received several complaints from centres in my own constituency. I hope that the responsible Minister will grapple with these matters in earnest. Much will be achieved if the lines suggested by Lord Kitchener are followed. We could spend the money which we vote for rifle clubs to better advantage by abolishing the voluntary system and establishing a compulsory system. At present many a club with a large membership contains only a small proportion of efficient marksmen. But with proper organization, proper provision of targets, and compulsion, we can make the rifle clubs a most valuable second line of defence, capable in time of war of rendering great assistance to the regular troops. {: #subdebate-11-0-s29 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- I indorse the remarks of the last speaker regarding the encouragement of rifle clubs. There is some friction in my own State, of which I do not quite know the rights and the wrongs, and the sooner these troubles ate straightened out and the rifle clubs are put on a sound basis, the better it will be for all concerned. But I rose to speak on other grievances. Nearly every union supports a newspaper of its own, but it is only now and again that one has an opportunity to read the lies which are thus scattered through ' the constituencies, and which it is impossible to overtake and refute. The distinguished representative of the Cook division is not only a member ot Parliament, but also the editor and conductor of a newspaper called *The Railway and Tramway Co-operator I* {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Would the honorable member like to be placed on the free list? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I do not wish to be on the free list of these newspapers. Very little light reading of the kind they offer is enough for me. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- We can mark the spicy bits. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Some friends were good enough to send me some of the spicy bits circulated during the last elections, not in one issue only, but throughout the campaign. The honorable member for Cook, being an up-to-date journalist, takes every advantage of space, ink, and the furniture of a printing office. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Headlines ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The newspaper is all headlines ; but these lines come not from the head but the spleen. Had there been more head, more fairness, and decency, I should not have this complaint to make. I am about to call the attention of the Government to some very serious allegations regarding what is happening under their control of the Departments. As they have been in office for about four months, it is time that they dealt with these matters, which have been brought under the notice of the public by one of their supporters. His diatribes fell on members of the present Opposition, because, prior' to the last election, we occupied the seats of the mighty. We had to bear the brunt of the honorable member's attacks, and suffered particularly in what may be called the industrial constituencies. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- The *Patriot* issued on behalf of the present Opposition was more scurrilous than the newspapers to which the honorable member refers. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- We are all patriots on this side, but I do not think that the honorable member understands the meaning of the word. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- Does the honorable member know **Dr. Johnson's** definition of the word "patriotism"? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- He termed "patriotism" the "last refuge of a scoundrel " ; it would not be parliamentary to describe honorable members opposite. One of the articles in the newspaper to which I am referring is headed "The Fusion as Sweaters." {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- The party nearly sweated away at the last election. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The Labour Government has found that although we are sweated down in numbers, we have been able to make its majority come down from its perch. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- The Opposition should be thankful that that has happened. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- No; the Government should be thankful for the light and leading which they have had from this side. Had my honorable friends been left to themselves, they would have got deep into the constitutional mire, and have found themselves ultimately in the toils of the High Court. I have it on the authority of the honorable member for Cook that you, **Mr. Speaker,** must be included in the category of sweaters. What he says is - it is not fair fighting - that during the last parliamentary session the Fusion had a waiter employed working twelve hours a day for 6s. a day. This man had a wife and family to keep. The matter was brought up in the House. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- So it was. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Why had not the honorable member for Cook the fairness to tell his readers what the reply of the then Speaker was, and the honesty to admit that the officers of this House are not under the control of the Fusion Government, nor of any Government, but of the Speaker? I draw your attention, sir, to this allegation, and should like to know whether this waiter is still employed for twelve hours a day at 6s. a day. I hope that you will put down such sweating at the earliest moment. The honorable member for Cook also laid great stress on the fact, as an instance of the Fusion sweating, that we had authorized a schedule of rates for the naval service of Australia - - which he displayed in leaded black type - providing for ships' cooks 6s. 6d. a day, for cooks 6s. a day, for officers' messmen 7s. a day, and for first-class stewards 6s. a day. He asked how men could be expected to bring up families in decency and comfort on such wages; but he did not tell the great body of workers whom he was addressing, and whom he is supposed to have under his especial care, that those rates are is a day in excess of the rates in force during the time that the last Labour Government was in office, and that I increased them by that amount. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- That was pretty low down. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Furthermore, he did not show that those rates are exclusive of rations which the men receive in every case. Had he added that information, it would have put a different complexion upon the schedule. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- The honorable member's party never gave the Labour Government a chance to do anything. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Although the honorable member was not here, he know all about it. The honorable member knows about as much regarding that matter as I knew of what was going on in this case until it was brought under my notice. The statement did not appear in the daily press, where it could be corrected, but in the union paper circulated among the honorable member's own friends, and hidden away from publicity. You cannot follow these lies when they are being thus circulated at election times. I ask the Minister representing the Defence Department whether he has yet put down this sweating ? Is it still going on, after the Government's four months of power and office, with a majority which is all powerful? I have not seen any interference with this rate of wage up to date. What is the honorable member doing? Why is he not doing his duty? His first duty on coming into Parliament behind a Government of this kind was to take care that every one of these items was altered for the better at the earliest possible moment. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- He is busy in Sydney extending the unions so as to make them Inter- State. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member has been very busy organizing, and I am not sure whether the honorable member for Calare was not with him and giving him a hand on one or two occasions. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- The honorable member is incorrect. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member was away somewhere, and we are glad to see his face again. I have no doubt that this matter did good service through the honorable member's electorate. I remember he took the editor of the paper and the author of this statement through his electorate, to help him in his onward course. I suppose he took all those cooperators with him when he was cooperating with my honorable friend, and I dare say he circulated these astounding statements through the honorable member's electorate also. I am simply calling attention to them, so that they may get this kind of sweating put a stop to under the reign and rule of this all-powerful Labour Government. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- We have given them an opportunity of appealing to the Arbitration Court. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The Arbitration Court has nothing to do with the Defence Department. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- These men will have an -opportunity of appealing to it, any way. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable -member is quite wrong. They have no appeal from the Defence Department to any Court except the court constituted by the Minister. He is the court of appeal in that Department, as he always must be, -and the honorable member cannot take his Arbitration Court into the Army. He must not begin to do that, even under a Democracy. no matter how absolute, because it will not work. The honorable member should not interject until he knows a little more about matters. These are matters which can be rectified only by the Minister in charge of the Department. Will the' Government take care that these rates art -determined by the present Minister to be fair, or, if they are not fair, what are they going to do about them ? Is this- abominable -.sweating to continue? So far, Ministers have done nothing, because if they had itwould have been published in the *Gazette,* -and the world would have known of it. The rates fixed, by me still stand, and all reasonable-minded people will conclude that men in the Navy, who are getting from 6s. to 7s. a day and rations, are not being sweated so abominably. I am pointing out these as one or two instances of what helped at election time to contribute to the -tremendous majority opposite. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- That is nothing compared with the export duty on wheat myth which the honorable member circulated round my electorate. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I did nothing but quote a statement in a newspaper about a deputation which had gone to the honorable member for Yarra when he was last in office. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- And a statement which th«; honorable member knew was not correct, -and upon which the honorable member for Grampians won his seat. It was an absolute misstatement. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The deputation went to the honorable member, who undertook to bring their representations before his colleagues. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- The honorable member said that I promised to get an export duty put on wheat, yet he knew he was saying something that was absolutely wrong. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member cannot find a report of that statement by me. If he can, it is a mis-report. I said the honorable member had expressed sympathy with the deputation, and agreed to bring their request before his colleagues. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- As I was bound to do. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member also expressed sympathy with them. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- I did no such thing. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member was not alone in that, because the honorable member for South Sydney declared that there must be an investigation into the matter. By-the-bye, why is not that investigation proceeding? Prices are going' up, the cost of living is increasing., and all because we are sending our best material away to the other end of the world. Why has not that been altered ? {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- Hear, hear. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Why does the honorable member cheer? If he agrees with me, why does he not get it altered ? Why is it not being done, now that honorable members are in a position to do it? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- Does the honorable member propose to apply that to all food products, fruit, and so on ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member should not try to throw chaff around. I am talking now about the export of foodstuffs, and I believe wheat and butter were specifically mentioned by the honorable member for South Sydney. Meat certainly was. It was pointed out what an increase there had been in the price of meat due to the fact that we were sending our best meat Home and to the establishment of our freezing works, and it was urged that something would have to be done to regulate the home price. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The honorable member's party won about half a dozen seats on that. He ought to be content with it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I am not sure that that is correct. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- They won three in Victoria, anyhow. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- At any rate, what are those honorable members opposite going to do about it? Was it only served up for the election? Were they humbugging their followers and trying to throw dust in the eyes of the public, or did they mean it when they said that an inquiry must be instituted? Will the Minister ot Trade and Customs say when that inquiry is coming along? It is long overdue. I 1456 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* hope he has not forgotten all about it since he has become comfortably ensconced on the soft cushions of Ministerial life. I hope he has not forgotten about the poor workers outside, who are still paying high prices for their meat and getting it tough and leathery into the bargain. When is he going to tackle the inquiry and do something practical to fulfil all the hopes which he raised and all the promises which he scattered round? They are still unfulfilled, although it was on the faith of them that the Labour party got such a tremendously sweeping majority at the polls. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- The election is over. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Does my honorable friend suggest that these were mere electioneering placards, and not intended for use? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- No doubt about it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- They won, and surely they are going to keep faith with these poor people outside, who are getting sweating wages, and buying goods inflated in price, and all because of the abominations of those who were in office at the time. The question of old-age and invalid pensions did admirable duty during the elections. Here are some of the things which were written and circulated about that question. This is a very startling headline : - "Old-age and Invalid Pensions: The Fusion Antagonistic"; and this is what follows : - >The old-age pension legislation passed by Deakin and the Fusion has been forced from them at the point of the bayonet. I suppose a party of forty odd in the House is usually forced at the point of the bayonet by a party of twenty-seven or twenty-eight. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- The honorable member's party used to say outside that the Labour party ruled the Government, and were responsible for all its misdoings. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- That was when the Labour party were behind the then Government, who were dependent on their votes. In those days they helped to make up a party which was in a large majority. It was quite different at this time of day, when the Labour party were over on this side, doing nothing but make night hideous, and asking at almost every hour that we should in mercy stop them in their headlong career. I should like to get out these statements so that the Government may have no further shred of excuse for perpetuating those tremendous evils with which we were charged so lately. The author of this article says - >When introducing such measures, Deakin and Co.- there can be no doubt about the politeness of this young man - have deliberately restricted their scope to prevent the liberal amendments desired by the Labour party. What are those liberal amendments? Chapter and verse are given here - On July 21,1909, Mr. Fisher, M.P. - It is Deakin and Co., but **Mr. Fisher,** M.P. Why did he not say " Comrade Andy " ? It will be remembered that "Comrade Sutch " wrote to "Comrade Andrew" when he wanted his five guineas a day from the Commonwealth Treasury. Why did not " Brother Catts " address "Comrade Andy" in the same brotherly way ? {: #subdebate-11-0-s30 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! The honorable member must refer to honorable members by the names of their constituencies. {: #subdebate-11-0-s31 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member for Cook went on to say in this article - >On July 21, 1909, **Mr. Fisher,** M.P., moved for old-age pensions to be paid to men at sixty, or if incapacitated at fifty-five, and to women at fifty-five. This was defeated after every conceivable point of order had been raised against it by the Fusion. That is a statement of fact. The proposition was defeated, and I believe that a point of order was raised that it did not come within the scope of the Bill. What is the Government going to do in this connexion? I hope that we shall have soon the declaration of the Prime Minister upon this and sundry questions in connexion with' his financialpronunciamento. We shall be glad to hear from him as to whether his Government propose to reduce the qualifying age in the case of males to sixty or, if incapacitated, to fifty-five, and in the case of women to fifty-five years of age. I make the confident prediction that he will propose nothing of the kind. We shall then see what my honorable friends who have talked of this matter all over the country are going to do. It is up to them to show that they were not indulging in humbug in this House when they made use of its forms to harass the then Government who were putting forward these humanitarian proposals. They have now the responsibility to shoulder, and they are beginning already to sing a different tune. The Prime Minister has hinted already, I believe, that he finds that his finances will not permit him to reduce the qualifying age as low as he and his party tried to force us to reduce it when we were in office. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- And yet they say that they did not wish to harass the then Government. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Of course, they did not wish to do so ! {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- Surely the Government do not intend to omit any of the proposals previously made by them? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- In order that they may have no excuse I am now reminding them of those proposals. They will not be able to say afterwards that they never thought of this kind of thing. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- The honorable member is taking his beating very badly. He ought to be getting over it after the lapse of four months. {: #subdebate-11-0-s32 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Savagery surges in the honorable member's bosom, and he puts the emphasis of his life into the word " beating." {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- The honorable member is making a farce of Parliamentary procedure. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Every one who has heard the honorable member speak since his brief essay in politics knows what an excellent authority on farces he is.Every one knows, too, by this time how worthily he fills the bill as the representative of what he declares to be the premier constituency of Australia. As a rule, when he is speaking one cannot hear him, but when we do get a mumble out of him we find that it is the truth for once : that he is an excellent authority on Parliamentary farces. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- The honorable member is very insulting in these references. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- He cannot help it. We cannot expect anything but a grunt from a bear. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member for Corio hears insults being hurled from his side of the Chamber, but he does not even know that they are insults. His brain seems to be preternaturally dull with regard to any kind of insult that is hurled at us from his side of the House, and preternatural ly keen with regard to anything that comes from this side. It is strange that the honorable member who has Just been projected into Parliament - who has been here about five minutes - thinks he can give a lesson in manners to those who have been here for ten years. He will get used to this kind of thing when he has been here for a little while, and, therefore, we may forgive him his schoolboy - I was going to say schoolmaster - tactics. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- It is no disgrace to have been a schoolmaster. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- No; the honorable member and I have needed a schoolmaster before to-day, and I am not sure that we do not both need the attention of one very much at the present time. I call the attention of the Government to this statement in regard to old-age pensions. It is a. question which is supposed to have no party significance. Yet it was dragged through the mire of a political campaign and treated in a very despicable fashion by some members of the Labour party. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- The honorable member must not forget that his party was the first to introduce the question of oldage pensions into the controversy. It issued leaflets and circulated reports that we were opposed to old-age pensions. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- If we did not know the honorable member we should think that he was really serious. The honorable member for Cook in these paragraphs proceeded to refer to some of his own proposals. Every member of his own party is designated by his -full and proper name. Those mysterious words " M.P." appear at the end of each. We have a reference to " Deakin and Co.," whilst, on the other hand, we find allusions to " **Mr. Fisher,** M.P. , " and **"Mr. Catts,** M.P." The words **"Mr. Catts,** M.P.," appear several times on the one page. It is set forth that on 22nd July, 1909 - > **Mr. Catts,** M.P., moved to prevent reduction of pensions because old people owned their own homes, as long as they did not produce income. This was defeated on a Fusion point of order. I ask the Government what they are going to do in regard to these professions as to the homes of old-age pensioners? The honorable member for Cook told some doleful tales of the way in which old-age pensioners were treated. It was shown that their treatment was a denial of the principle of thrift, a flouting and a penalizing of thrift. These old people, who through their long life's pilgrimage had managed to save enough money to build homes for themselves, were disqualified,it was said, from receiving old-age pensions. I have not heard one word in the House this session about these old people's homes. Why? Was this again so much stage thunder - so much talk from the platform which was not intended for parliamentary consumption? I should like to hear what the Government have to say about all these terrible things that were brought to public notice by their supporters at the late election. {: .speaker-L6Z} ##### Mr Hall: -- From what is 'the honorable member quoting? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- From *The Railway and Tramway Co-operator.* The honorable member for Cook went on to say that the proposal to reduce the residence qualification of old-age pension applicants from twenty-five to twenty years was due to pur having accepted the proposal of the Labour party Government. He said that such a provision was first drafted by the Fisher Government, and was now law. He could not take that little item from us in any other way. It happened to have been passed by the Fusion Government, and all that he could say was that we had stolen his party's clothes, and inferred that we were a mean set to do so. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr Thomas Brown: -- His trouble was that the Fusion Government did not take more of our political clothes while they were about it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- No. All this is under the heading of " The Fusion Antagonistic," and his trouble seemed to be that we were not antagonistic to that proposal. Further on we have the statement that on 25th November, 1909 - > **Mr. Catts,** M.P., moved to enable old-age pensioners to have their pensions based on their income for the preceding month, instead of the preceding year - the practice of the Fusion. He knew that he was misleading the public when he made that statement. He knew that the practice to which he referred had been followed since the coming into operation of the Old-age Pensions Act, for the passing of which the Labour party are never tired of taking credit. Every blot on it. every imperfection connected with it, on the other hand, is singled out as the work of the Fusion. If, instead of attributing this practice to the Fusion Government alone, the honorable member had said that it was the practice of his own party when in power, and, indeed, of every Government since the passing of the Act, he would have told the simple truth. These very defects which his own Government left in the Bill he tries to charge to the Fusion when appearing on the public platforms of the country. I do not call that fair fighting. He says - >The Government threatened to drop the amending Bill, and the amendment had to be withdrawn. This clause causes great hardship to the needy old people of Australia. I believe it does; and I should like to* see some modification of the proposal. I believe I am the first man in the new Parliament to speak on this matter ; and this isthe place to have these things remedied, and not on the political platform of the country. The present Government havethe power and the control of the finances; and yet not one word has there been since the elections on this very important question. We are told - >The Labour party will deal liberally yen fairly with the old-age pensioners and invalids of Australia. There is a great deal more in this newspaper, but I think that I have read sufficient. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The honorable member dishes it up very well ! {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I assure die honorable member that whatever is wrong, there is now an opportunity to put right; and, after all the political capital that has been made of these matters, it is about time that honorable members opposite showed their *bond fides* by an earnest attempt to carry out their promises at the earliest possible moment. This newspaper also deals with another matter in connexion! with some sweating supposed to be going on in the Post and Telegraph Department. It says - >Although Hon. J. Cook was returned to Parliament as a Labour representative, and was for years Postmaster-General of New South Wales, he never laid down a minimum wage -for the employes in his Department. But has any Labour Government attempted to do that so far? We have had three Labour Governments - the Watson Government, the first Fisher Government, and now the second Fisher Government, which is four months old. Under the Commonwealth, the Labour party were instrumental in having the minimum wageof *£2* 2s. per week laid down for an adult. Of course, the writer takes credit for that. I believe, however, that every honorable member on this side who was in the House at that time, supported and voted for that provision, which was not introduced by the Labour Government but by the Deakin or Barton Government - I forget which. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- It was opposed by the Barton Government, and knocked out by that Government in the Senate. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Then how did it become law ? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- We forced the Government to put it in again. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- But the Government had to consent before that could be done. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Of course. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- I think there were about twenty Labour members at that time? {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- There were sixteen. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- Then, according to the Minister of Trade and Customs, sixteen members forced a House of seventy-four to insert that provision. As a matter of fact, those sixteen Labour members would have been absolutely helpless had there not been sixteen, or considerably more, other honorable members to help them to carry this provision. The speech proceeds - but we find that the Fusion have married men working in the Mail Branch of the General Post Office, Sydney, at a salary of ^84 per annum. This works out at 32s. per week. This is the policy of the Employers' Federation with a vengeance, namely, that the workers have no right to claim a living wage, which is a marrying wage. How is the marriage rate proceeding now in the Post Office? I should like to call the attention of the Postmaster-General to the fact that nothing has altered since this Government took office, but that these things have been going on while the Labour Governments have come and gone. There is now a third Labour Government in office, and still there is no move to redress any of those grievances which are supposed to be interfering with the very desirable object of our people getting married, and having families to populate the country. It is time to remind honorable members opposite of some of the things out of which they made such excellent political capital on the platform. Their silence is very remarkable indeed since the election j but I yet hope that they are going to set about remedying some of those grievances. They have no longer any excuse to offer, and they cannot blame the Fusion, which, indeed, was never blamable. But supposing the Fusion had done all these things, there would be all the more reason why this Labour Government should set about rectifying abuses which they say are working to the detriment of the community. I should like to know from the Prime Minister what he is going to do, because it is time we heard something of the policy of rectification as applied to the working people of Australia. I hope the Prime Minister will forgive me for reminding him of some of the grievances which can be rectified instantly by the simple edict of this Governmnt, who have the power, and who, if they do not exercise that power, will be culpable in the eyes of the people outside. {: #subdebate-11-0-s33 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- When honorable members, who are now sitting so comfortably and quietly opposite, were on this side, there was no difficulty in hearing their voices very much more frequently than we, who were then on the Government side, cared to hear them. However, we as an Opposition have a duty to perform in making our voices heard on certain occasions ; and this is one of those occasions which, from time to time, arise, when honorable members on all sides are afforded an opportunity to lay before the House matters of complaint. I desire to speak of subjects which are of interest, not only to the persons affected, but to the general community, and which should be of some interest to honorable members, particularly those who arrogantly claim to be the sole representatives of the wage-earners. Thehonorable member for Parramatta has referred, for example, to some of the grievances in connexion with that unpopular institution, which, for some rea- - son or other, is so grossly mismanaged - the General Post Office. But there are many matters, of course, with which he has not dealt, and some which have been brought under my own personal notice, with a request that I should ventilate them here. I have here a letter which I received only to-day, but from which 1 propose to read only a few extracts to show the nature of some of the complaints which' are made. I shall not disclose the identity of the writer, because I do not desire to have any punishment visited on him for his indiscretion in writing to a parliamentary representative, for, as we know, such a course is against the regulations. The writer gives an excuse which seems to be a valid one why he should adopt this method. He says that other methods have so far failed, and he hopes that by laying the grievances, not only of himself, but of his fellow employes, before Parliament, he may get a redemption of the promise made by so many honorable members opposite during the election campaign - that the grievances which are a source of so much trouble and discontent throughout the Postal and other Departments would be remedied if only a change were brought about in the representation of the people, and governmental power given to the party which claims to specially represent them. In the course of the letter, the writer says - >As you are no doubt well aware the omission by successive Governments to make adequate provision of staff to cope with the consistently expanding business of the Department has necessitated an excessive amount of duty beyond regulation hours by the' staff. That has been a complaint for years and years, and yet nothing seems to be done by way of permanent remedy. He goes on - >Payment for this overtime has been made bv previous Administrations, but the present Government apparently evinces much greater reluctance than the previous one in recognising that the excess duty should be recompensed according to the Commonwealth Public Service Regulations with reasonable promptitude. That is a point that demands special attention from this House. Although the overtime evil in itself has been sufficiently great in the past, it was at least paid for by the previous Liberal Government when the honorable member for Bendigo was Postmaster- General. As the writer says, however, overtime is not being paid for at present, notwithstanding the fact that there is a Labour Government in office supposed to have special care of the wage earners in the Public Service, and elsewhere. The writer goes on to say - >On 5th April last the Deputy PostmasterGeneral forwarded to the Central Office a letter recommending that some ten thousand hours' overtime duty performed in the clerical branches of the General Post Office be paid for at regulation rates. Nothing, however, has since been heard of the matter, and it is feared that the papers have been pigeon-holed preparatory to being relegated to the limbo pf forgotten things. A similar recommendation submitted during **Sir John** Quick's term of office was promptly approved, and payment made within six weeks of the despatch of the recommendation. Why cannot the same thing be done now? With a Labour Government in office, pledged to see justice done, to prevent sweating and to see that fair remuneration is paid for service, we find a condition of things worse than that which existed under the previous Administration. Why is this so, and why has there been no outcry against it from the supporters of this Government, which claims to be the special representatives of the wage-earners? The letter continues - >It is strongly felt that little hope can be entertained of any amelioration of the conditions of our employment until the heads of the service are made to recognise that the staff cannot be continuously overworked without compensation. The performance of duty beyond regulation hours is cordially detested throughout the service, but when overtime duty is required without payment, a feeling of strong dissatisfaction and resentment is engendered which does not conduce to the efficient working of the Department. It is scandalous that men should be required to work excessively long hours unless it is absolutely necessary, but under no circumstances should overtime be worked without an increased recompense. Such a state of affairs as is alleged by the writer to exist is contrary to the wishes of this House, or, at any rate, to the wishes of the Opposition. It has been left for a Labour Government to allow things to go from bad to worse. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Does the honorable member believe that things are different now from what they were under the honorable member for Bendigo? {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The letter from which I am quoting was written by a man occupying, in relation to his fellow employes, a responsible position in the service. I received it only this afternoon, with the request that I would ventilate the complaints which it contains. If the condition of things is as described, it is a scandal, and should not be allowed to continue. I do not accept personal responsibility for the writer's statements. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Does the honorable member believe that overtime which was paid for under the honorable member for Bendigo is not paid for now ? {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member has heard what the writer says. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Who pays overtime - the Postmaster-General or the Public Service Commissioner ? {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The Postmaster-General is responsible for. making the necessary provision in his Departmental Estimates. Will the PostmasterGeneral inquire of the Public Service Commissioner if such a recommendation as that referred to in the letter was made, and, if so, why it has not been complied with? The recommendation was made on 5th April, and, as it is now the middle of August, and another financial year has commenced, it may be assumed that it is not intended to pay the money that is asked for. In any case, the expenditure will now have to be charged against the revenue of this year, when it should have been a charge against *he revenue for the year ending 30th June last. I shall not read the whole of the letter, but it concludes with this statement - >We have already (some two months ago) interviewed the Honorable the Postmaster-General, *Post and Telegraph* [11 August, 1910.] *Department.* 1461 with a view to securing redress of this grievance, but received a purely non-committal reply. You will, therefore, understand that we have exhausted all regular and legitimate sources of redress, and that we now seek a remedy from another quarter as a last resort. The Postmaster- General has given a noncommittal reply to the representations made to him, and has not promised redress.I ask honorable members to contrast his attitude with that of his predecessor. Is it consistent with the promises made throughout the country by Labour candidates when they were seeking the suffrages of the electors? Now they are in power, the Government is supported by a large majority, and has unlimited financial resources, but nothing is proposed to be done to remedy injustices which call for prompt and effective redress. Another complaint which seems to me to be well-founded, is that of the sorters, in regard to the second test examination which they are called upon to undergo prior to having their wages increased from *£156* to *£162* per annum. This test is applied to the men in the inland mail despatch room. According to a communication addressed to the PostmasterGeneral some time ago, and a copy of which I have received - >The supervisors of the respective branches are annually called upon to report on officials on three issues, namely, efficiency, diligence, and conduct, hence the power of recommendation is still with these officers independent of this test, which is not equitable in view of the different classes of work in connexion with the Mail Branch. That one branch should be selected for an examination. ' There are seven distinct branches connected with the Mail Branch - (1) Registry branch, (2) Foreign branch, (3) Inland or Despatch branch, (4) Receiving branch, (5) Delivery branch, (6) Private Box branch, (7) Parcel Post branch. All these branches are recognised by the Department as equally as important to the general management and essential in the public interest to expedite general despatch of correspondence, and therefore managed by an expert staff in the respective work. What is intended to be conveyed is that the officers employed in these branches must be specialists, who have gained particular skill and efficiency by constant practice and familiarity with their work in a particular division of the branch. It would, it is claimed, reduce the efficiency of the Department to move them from one branch to another, and, therefore, it is unfair, and imposes on them a physical and mental strain for which there is no warrant, to expect them to pass examinations in the work of other branches in which they are not likely ever to be employed. The letter goes on to say - >We therefore respectfully contend when officials have passed the initial test, and are allocated to those respective branches, the best interest of the service is at stake, and possibly inconvenience by errors, &c, by the officials endeavouring to qualify for a test contrary to their work in the branch to which they are attached. It concludes with a request that the heads of the various branches should be called upon for a report, in order to ascertain if they gained any advantage by the sorters passing the second test. It is claimed by experienced men engaged in sorting work that no advantage accrues, either to the sorters or to the Department, through their undergoing this second test examination. After successfully passing this test examination, the officers, I am informed, are still kept at their old employment, and the "cramming" to which they have had to subject themselves is absolutely useless, because what they have learnt is soon forgotten, as the knowledge is not necessary in performing the duties to which they have been accustomed, and in which they still remain engaged. I wish to call attention, also, to what seems to be an absolutely foolish regulation, involving a good deal of hardship upon the poorer classes who try to qualify for the Commonwealth Public Service. I refer to statutory rule No. 59, which is a regulation under the Commonwealth Public Service Act, dated 8th June of this year, and authorized by the present Labour Minister of Home Affairs, the honorable member for Darwin. It is as follows : - >Regulation 220, made under the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Service Act 1902, is hereby repealed, and a new regulation in the following terms is made in lieu thereof : - 220. The following entrance fees shall be paid by applicants for examination, and a postal note for the requisite amount, made payable to the Secretary to the Commonwealth Public Service Commissioner, Melbourne, must be forwarded with each application, viz. : - For appointment to the Professional or Clerical Division, Fifteen shillings; for appointment to the General Division to a position other than that of Telegraph Messenger, Seven shillings and sixpence; for appointment as Telegraph Messenger, Five shillings; for promotion from the position of Telegraph Messenger to other positions in the General Division, Five shillings. If an applicant fails to comply with this Regulation, he will not be allowed to present himself for examination. The amount paid will be refunded if the applicant is found to be ineligible for examination, or if satisfactory reasons are furnished as to inability to attend an examination. I fail to see what advantage the Department gains by imposing such a financial disability upon candidates. There are many people in poor circumstances whose children, when they leave school-, desire to qualify for positions in the Public Service, and the payment of 15s., or 7s. 6d., or even 5s., as an examination fee is to them a real hardship. I do not know why that regulation has been passed, and what seems to me very strange is that it should have been sanctioned by a Labour Minister. If any Government ought to have sympathy with those in poor circumstances, it is surely a Labour Government. I appeal to the Minister to remove these charges, and let the examinations be open to all who are qualified to compete. If this demand for a fee is insisted upon, it simply gives an advantage to one class of individuals over another who are not so fortunate in a monetary sense. It creates a class distinction, and sets up an aristocracy of applicants foi employment, while placing disabilities on many who would, perhaps, be better qualified to do the work than those who happen to have the necessary fee to plank down. I wish also to refer to matters connected with telephone troubles. I have had frequent communications from progress associations and other institutions, as also from clerks of shires and municipalities, complaining of the telephone management, and the lack of proper telephone facilities to the public. The following is one complaint of many, and I will deal with it as typical of the rest. I received it from **Mr. Watt,** secretary of the Progress Association at Miranda - >In answer to your letter of 29th June, 1910, I would like to say that the circuit as mentioned is working anything but satisfactorily for the people of Miranda. Persons have reported to have been trying for from twenty to forty-five minutes to get on to Sydney and then go away without doing so. What we want to do away with all this trouble is a direct route. Would you be so kind as to use your influence on our behalf ? I can only say that I have been trying for the last couple of years or more to get this grievance attended to. When an attempt was made originally to get Miranda connected by telephone, all sorts of obstacles were placed in the way. A carefully prepared estimate, the basis of which I do not know, was made by certain officials, who sought to show that such a telephone connexion would never pay anything like working expenses. Guarantees were asked for, and other difficulties put in the way of the erection of the line. However, the line was ultimately put up, with the result that the estimate of receipts was immediately falsified by the business which resulted. I dare say this is an experience common to many other places with which honorable members are familiar. In another portion of the same district - Cronulla - congestion soon followed the establishment of a telephone bureau, and many complaints of delay and inability to get communication soon became rife. An officer was sent out to investigate. He reported that urgent relief was required, and recommended the erection of a new direct line to Kogarah. That was approved, and it was said that the Department would proceed with the work as soon as convenient. Originally the stereotyped reply used to be that the work would be proceeded with as soon as funds were available. That has been changed to a statement that ' ' The Department has not a staff available at the present time to do the work." This means that the demands on the staff are so great that admittedly necessary and urgent works cannot be carried out. If sufficient funds have been provided for the purpose, it is the business of the Minister controlling the Department to see that a sufficient number of men are put. on to cope with the increasing work. I recognise that, to some extent, work of that kind is specialized, and that men have to be trained before ' they can be intrusted with it ; but the Department, realizing the inevitable expansion of the telephone system throughout the country, should make preparations to insure that a sufficiency of men are being trained all the time to take up the work. It should be the business of the PostmasterGeneral to anticipate a necessity of that kind, and make suitable provision for it on his Estimates; and the Treasurer, in his turn, should recognise his obligation to grant sufficient money for such important undertakings. The present condition of telephonic business is a standing disgrace to the Department. I do not know who is to blame, but I do know that some of the supervizing officers at the head office in Sydney seem to be unduly trammelled, in handling the business of their Departments. At one time they were cramped by lack of funds. They are cramped now by lack of the competent officers necessary to carry out the work. Public utility should be one of the first considerations of such an important Department, and I hope that an earnest effort will be made to remove the congestion in the particular district to which I have referred. That congestion, severe and exasperating as it is, will be still more pronounced as time goes on. A new tram-line to connect Cronulla Beach with the railway, is being constructed, and this will mean a tremendous increase in traffic. No provision has yet been made, however, to meet that increase, and it is reasonable to assume that next Christmas, when the holiday season commences, complaints will be louder than they have been, and even more general. The Department itself will be made the subject of anathemas both loud and deep, and deservedly increasing in volume. No private business concern would survive the popular disfavour which attaches to the Postmaster-General's Department. There is one other matter to which I desire to refer before I sit down. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Hear, hear ; this is like the buzz of a bee. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order 1 {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- As one or two honorable members opposite seem to be rather distressed because of my brief references to these grievances, I think I shall refer to several others. I have had frequent occasion to bring under the notice of the postal authorities the congestion of postal business at Wanstead, a district in my constituency, and perhaps I shall save time by quoting from a letter I have received setting forth legitimate grounds of complaint calling for intervention on the part of the Minister. Up to the present the representations made to the Deputy Postmaster-General do not seem to have borne much satisfactory fruit. The secretary of the Wanstead Ratepayers' Association writes - >The request made was for an up-to-date delivery office, and sufficient data was placed before the Department to prove that the service is totally inefficient, the sole reason of which is that the postal areas are too large and cumbersome, and require adjusting to meet the requirements. . . . Instances of inefficiency *re* stamp supply, non-delivery of letters, and late delivery put before the Department result in unduly penalizing overworked employes, on whose shoulders is cast the responsibility instead of upon the Administration, which is unable to meet the growing requirements of the country ; and rather than do injustice to men who are irresponsible, I, like a good many others, prefer to meet the difficulty by procuring what I require from city offices and put up with the neglect of the authorities in the. matters I am unable to overcome for the present. Some honorable members of the Labour party may think that this is a fit subject to jeer at. May I remind them that this is a complaint coming from working men, who cannot attend to these matters for themselves. They have as much right to consideration as have those who are in a better position to help themselves. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- That is why honorable members opposite jeer. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It is. Whenever reference is made to an injustice pressing heavily upon working men, some, at least, of the representatives of the workers are the first to sneer and jeer. It does not reflect much credit on the honorable member for Melbourne Ports - elected as a representative of a purely Labour constituency - that he- with other members of the Labour party, should take up thib attitude. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- I like the honorable member better in this strain. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I claim, on behalf of working men, the sympathy of those who put themselves forward as the special representatives of the workers; yet, when a worker's complaint is brought before the House, they invariably sneer and jeer. {: .speaker-L4X} ##### Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP -- Behold the latest champion of the workers ! {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Talk is cheap. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I have done more for working men, both in the House and out of it, than the honorable member for Indi has ever done, and was a champion of the true cause of the worker long before the honorable member was ever heard of politically. I challenge him, or any other honorable member, to point to a single word uttered, or an action taken, by me, either outside or in this House, that has ever been against the true interests of the worker. There are not many honorable members opposite who can issue a similar challenge. I am not goingto be deterred, however, from doing my duty by the sneers and jeers of these socalled representatives of the workers, when I bring forward grievances in which working men themselves are the only sufferers. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Could not the honorable member work his arms like semaphores ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I have called the honorable member for Melbourne Ports to order on several occasions, and if he persists in interjecting I shall have to take some other course. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The quotation I have made in regard to complaints from the Wanstead district show that the only result of those complaints has been to place additional work upon lettercarriers and others engaged in the ordinary work of the Post Office. No relief has been granted, but the men already overworked have, I am informed, been saddled with still more. These are matters which so-called representatives of Labour jeer at. The postal district in which Wanstead is included is too large, and is undermanned. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- Where is the PostmasterGeneral ? {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- With that characteristic indifference to the convenience of the public, especially to the wage-earning section of it, he walks out of the chamber when complaints are made about the administration of his Department. The Department claims that the revenue derived from the Wanstead district office would not justify an alteration in the present system. That revenue, however, is not likely to increase to any material extent when no reasonable facilities for the transaction of business are provided. If it is not sufficient at present, it is largely because the conveniences which the office offers for the transaction of business are insufficient. Residents have, in many cases, to walk a long distance to other offices, and it pays them better to transact their postal business in town. In this way, the city offices get credit for revenue that should rightly go to the local office, if one were provided. I shall forego reference to several other matters, to which I had intended to allude, as, owing to the interjections to which I have been subjected, I' think I have already taken up rather too much of the time of the House. I hope an earnest effort will be made to remedy the grievances I have mentioned, and to tackle the Post Office problem in a more serious manner than has hitherto beer attempted. Question resolved in the negative. {: .page-start } page 1464 {:#debate-12} ### AUSTRALIAN NOTES BILL {:#subdebate-12-0} #### Second Reading Debate resumed from 9th August *(vide* page 1255), on motion by **Mr. Fisher** - >That this Bill be now read a second time. {: #subdebate-12-0-s0 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare -- The subject matter of this Bill is by no means new to the party of which I am a member. Public expression was first given to the principle which underlies it by the ex-member for South Sydney, **Mr. J.** C. Watson, when he held office as Prime Minister of the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- His proposal was not one for taking over a currency. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- But it had to do with that. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I think not. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- That is what I understood, though his scheme was not formulated as this one is. The present Prime Minister had also previously dealt with the subject, so that it will be seen that the question has already been placed before the public. The proposal of **Mr. Watson** called forth criticism both in the press and on the platform, and that criticism was wholly hostile.' It was represented in the press as an attempt to rob the banks, and to introduce a form of currency that lacked stability and promised to bring about dis1 aster. The proposal now before us is that the Commonwealth shall issue notes to the amount of £7,000,000, the notes representing ros., *j£i, £5,* £10, and multiples of £10 up to the limit of issue, and they are offered to the public as a means of carrying on business usually transacted by means of paper money. It is not intended to prohibit the banks from issuing notes, but a charge is made on all such notes issued, and the money placed to the credit of the community. Heretofore the private banks have practically had the unlimited right to issue notes free of charge, and the State was expected or asked to "guarantee these notes in times of crisis. The Government proposal is safeguarded by a provision that for every £1 issue6 5s. shall be held in a reserve account, and that for any issue over £7,000,000 there shall be a reserve to the full amount in gold. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Can the honorable member cite any case in the world where there is a reserve of only 25 per cent. ? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Such a reserve has been very often recommended. For instance, as the Prime Minister pointed out the other night, it was recommended by a commission of experts appointed by one of the States. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That was in connexion with a State bank. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Yes, and I hope that the proposal now before us will be supplemented later on by one for the establishment of a State bank, representing the whole people of the Commonwealth. As an additional safeguard, on any notes over and above the- maximum it is proposed to issue Treasury bills. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- How are Treasurybills any safeguard for a note issue? {: #subdebate-12-0-s1 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I must ask honorable members to cease interjecting, and allow the honorable member for Calare to address the Chamber in his own way. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I rise to order. I should like to address your attention, **Mr. Speaker,** to a very disorderly remark of the Prime Minister just now, when he said that we on this side had wasted a whole day. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I did not hear the Prime Minister make that remark, but, if he did so, he was certainly out of order. I must again impress on honorable members that they must not make continuous interjections; if they do, I shall have to take another course to insure that business is conducted in a proper way. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- In my opinion, the Government are erring, if at all, on the side of safety and security. The public require about £4,000,000 in paper money to carry on its business. We have two forms of currency - that which is known as intrinsic, having a value in itself, and represented by our sovereign and other metallic money ; and another of a representative character, having a guarantee to secure its acceptance, such as bank notes, generally termed " paper money." No doubt, there are other reasons why a certain amount of paper money is acceptable to the public. First of all, it is handy and convenient, and, with proper safeguards, there is every justification for its use. Economic writers like Professor Jevons, Professor Walker, and many others justify its use, although in former days there were those who considered that the introduction of paper money vitiated the medium of exchange. The fact has been incontrovertibly established that paper money serves a useful purpose, and meets certain conditions and requirements better than does metallic money. The only condition required is that the guarantee behind it shall be substantial and of such a character that the paper can be readily turned into metallic money of its face value. As to how and by whom paper money is to be circulated there is difference of opinion. Some, while admitting that paper money of the character proposed is necessary, object to the Government issuing it on the ground that it can be best controlled by the banks. With that contention I join issue. If paper money is to form a considerable part of our circulating medium, experiences of the past show that it ought to be under the control of the representative and governing body, rather than under the control of that section of the community represented by the banks and financial institutions. Professor Jevons, the noted economic writer, in his work, *Money and the Mechanism of Exchange,* chapter 23, says - >There is plenty of evidence to prove that an inconvertible paper money, carefully limited in quantity, can retain its full value. Such was the case with the Bank of England notes for several years after the suspension of the specie payments in 1797, and such is the case with the present notes of the Bank of France. Then Professor Walker, an American authority, says - >After looking at the subject from every side. I am at a loss to conceive of a single argument which can be advanced to support the. assertion of the economists, that paper money cannot perform this function of measuring values, so called. On the contrary, it appears to me clear, beyond a doubt, that just as long and just as far as paper money obtains and retains currency as the popular medium of exchange, so far and so long it does and must act as the value denomination or common denominator in exchange. And f see no reason to believe that, in this single respect, hard money, so called, possesses advantages over issues of any other form, or substance, which secure the degree of general acceptance which is necessary to consider them money. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr Fairbairn: -- He does not say Government money. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- True, he does not say Government paper money. He is dealing with paper money, which has a guarantee sufficient to secure the confidence of the people who use it. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The same man condemns Government paper money. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I have not read his book through, but what reading T have done of it did not disclose that fact. I know that there are objections raised to the issue of paper money generally. What is known as Gresham's law is very generally advanced as a reason why Governments should not be intrusted with the responsibility of issuing paper money. It has been briefly summarized in these terms - >When two or more kinds of money contend for use in the market, the worst kind of money that is legal will drive the better kind out of circulation. Although that law is generally considered universal in its application, Professor F. A. Walker combats the idea in the following words - >Thus expressed, the theory is incorrect. Bad money will only drive out good money when the sum of the two is in excess of the wants of trade; that is, in excess of the amount which is necessary to keep prices in the community on a level, cost of transportation being taken into account, with prices in the community with which it trades. It is only when the total amount of money comes to be in excess of the wants of trade that exportation or melting of the coin begins. In such a situation Gresham's law operates with almost absolute certainty. The same opinion is held by that great economic writer Ricardo. His statement of the principle is to be found in his works on the subject. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Does the honorable member contend that paper money is the inferior money? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I am- answering the objection sometimes raised that paper money is the inferior money, and, therefore, it is not wise to intrust its issue to a Government, which may be tempted to place a large amount on the market. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Gresham's law does not touch the question whether the State should issue bank notes. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Gresham's law applies to the issue of paper money under the limitations which I have indicated, whether by private persons, syndicates, or Governments. I am trying to show that it is not so universal in its application as those who use it as an argument against the Government issuing notes would lead the community to suppose. I do not think, from my reading, that Gresham regarded his law as being thus limited, but practical experience, and further inquiry on the part of those competent to express an opinion, show that it has its limitations, and only begins to operate under the unusual conditions which are indicated by Professor Walker. He says that when you get those conditions Gresham's law operates completely and certainly. That being so, the question that presents itself is whether, viewing the matter from the stand-point of these objections, the better authority to issue a circulating medium is the State, which represents the people, or a bank or syndicate representing only part of the people, and operating with a view to its own especial advantage without considering those of the community. With the exception of Queensland, the circulating paper currency in all the States of the Commonwealth is issued by, and is under the control of, those who form and manage our banking institutions. No doubt they are able, capable, and competent men. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr Palmer: -- What do the banks pay for the privilege of issuing notes? {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- £80,000 a year. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- They charge that on to the general public. The Government proposes to give to the people profit that is now going to a few, and to make the benefits of the paper currency available to the whole community. Do honorable members say that the community will lose if the Government proposal is adopted ? {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I can show that it will not gain anything. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- It will gain greater security. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The people, in addition to gaining by the arrangement, will have the advantage of greater security. As to the value of the security offered by the banks, compared with that offered by the Government, let me refer to the report of a Commission which investigated this matter in Sydney, in 1892. **Mr. Coghlan,** who at present represents New South Wales in London, and has made a reputation for himself, not only in that State, but throughout the world, for his capacity for dealing with statistics, then described the laws "governing our banking institutions in these words - >At present the law relating to banking is ridiculous and it is a standing disgrace to a civilized community. Then, again, with respect to the relationship of the community to these institutions, **Mr. John** Bartholomew, manager of the Commercial Bank of Australia, gave evidence before the same Commission, and is reported to have been asked certain questions which are very much to the point. He said in the course of his examination that 130 people regulate the interests of the 30,000 depositors in his particular bank. He was asked, " So that when you reduce it to a concrete form the industrial community is almost subordinate to a comparatively few individuals connected with the. banks?" He said, "Yes, if you put lt in that way." Another question put to the witness was, " Upon your management or investment of -trust funds or borrowed money depends the prosperity or depression of the entire community? " He said, " I think that is rather a strong way in which to put it." Upon being asked, " Although it is put strongly, is it not perfectly true ? ' ' He said, " It is true." That is the condition which obtains with respect to these banking institutions. I wish to show that if w« are to have a circulating medium of this character it is in the interest of the general public that it should be under the control of the Government as now proposed, rather than under the control of private banking institutions as at present. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Will the Govern ment charge a lower rate of interest? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The Government will give better security. {: .speaker-JYR} ##### Mr Fairbairn: -- -They cannot give better security than gold, and the banks now give gold as security. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- At the present time there are in the Commonwealth about £24,900,000 in gold and £1,353,000 in bullion. The total metallic wealth in gold and bullion is £[26,297,000. As against that we have an issue of something like £4,265,000, made up of £3,510,000 notes circulated by the banks, and £755,000 notes issued by the Queensland Government. We are told that the gold held by the banks represents an aggregate of about £7 to every £1 issued in notes for circulating purposes, and that that is a sufficient guarantee, and a better guarantee than that offered by the Government. That statement, however, is not quite true. It is true that there are notes to the extent of £4,265,000 in circulation representing credit, and gold and bullion £26,297,000. But it is further true that against that the banks owe deposits at call to the extent of £46,812,000, and deposits bearing interest of over £70,945,000. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- What are the liquid assets ? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The banks hold liquid assets representing mortgages and other securities to a larger amount than that. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- How much? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I find from **Mr. Knibbs'** statistics that the twentyone banks carrying on business in the Commonwealth hold in paid-up capital £18,591,000; in reserve profit £8,783,000; or a total of £27,374.000. They hold as assets coin to the extent of £24,943,000; bullion, ^1,335.°°°.; or a total of £26,297,000. They hold Go.vernment and municipal securities to the extent of £3,085,000, or a total of gold and Government securities of £29,382,000. Other assets amount to £102,334,000. The total assets amount to £i3i,7i7>7°°- 0" the *per contra* side there are notes not bearing interest to the extent of £3,510,000; bills bearing interest, £720,006; balances due to the other banks, £555,000 ; deposits not bearing interest, £46,812,000; deposits bearing interest. £70,945,000 ; or total liabilities amounting to £122,545,000. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Fancy the Government having that amount to handle. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The honorable member seems now to be arguing that the part is greater than the whole. From my reading on the subject of financial crises, and a personal experience of one, I am able to say that when banks have been unable to meet their note obligations it has been the poor weak Government to whom they have run to help them over their difficulties. That has been the experience of every country in which banking is carried on. {: .speaker-KXN} ##### Mr Ozanne: -- Even the Bank of England did that. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I propose to refer to that later on. My contention is that if paper money is to be issued, it is in the public interest that it should be under the control of the Government, with die guarantee of the Consolidated Revenue behind it, rather than it should be under the control of private banking syndicates with the very much smaller guarantee they can offer. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member has quite omitted mention of the fact that the notes of a bank are a first charge upon its assets. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- The honorable member is quite correct. When a financial crisis occurs the run is first of all on the assets to meet other obligations of the bank, and when the notes are presented, there are no assets to meet them. The State has then to come in and guarantee the notes in order to continue their circulation. That was our experience in the 1893 crisis, and at that time the evidence on paper of the stability of the banks was even more convincing than it is to-day. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Does the honorable member say that notes were dishonoured by the banks in 1893? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Yes, I do. If the honorable member will look up the reports appearing in the press a few days ago, he will find that people in Sydney to-day have been victimized by notes of defunct Victorian banks that have never been honoured. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Will the honorable member say that in 1893 the notes of the large banks were dishonoured ? They were not. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I say that the notes of banks that were recognised as sound and stable at that time w.ere dishonoured, and have never been honoured since. I say that some of the large banks could not meet their note obligations, and their £1 notes were sold for as low as 12s 6d., and lower. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Were the notes of the Victorian banks referred to a first charge on the assets of those banks? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I am not in a position to say, but it is recognised, I think, as a general principle, that the notes of every bank are a first charge upon its assets. On this subject, I direct the attention of the honorable member for Parkes to the opinion of a politician and financier whom he will not care to controvert, though he may reasonably disregard any opinions I express on the matter. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- All I say about the honorable member's speech is that it is quite beside the question. It does not touch this Bill for a note issue. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I direct the attention of the honorable member to this expression of opinion by no less an authority than the late Right Hon. W. E. Gladstone - >The profits of a bank-note issue belong to the State, and what is. more important than the profits, the responsibility of issue belongs to the State. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member forgets that our banks pay £80,000 a year for the privilege of issuing notes, and the banks did not do that in Gladstone's time. . {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- If the honorable member's contention be right, it is not a question of responsibility and stability, and if a bank is prepared to pay for the privilege that decides the matter. I disagree with that contention, because the most unstable banks would be prepared to pay the largest amount to secure the privilege of issuing notes if it could be secured in that way. **Mr. Gladstone** laid it down as a governing principle first of all that the profits connected with the issue of notes belong, not to a bank or syndicate, but to the nation; and, what is more important than any question of profit, that the responsibility connected with the issue and guaranteeing of notes belongs to the State. He was supported in that contention by **Sir Robert** Peel. Lord Sherbrooke, **Sir Stafford** Northcote, and many other economic thinkers. I propose now to quote for the edification of the honorable member for Parkes . from John Stuart Mill. This is what he says - >The exclusive privilege of issuing these notes if reserved to the Government or some one body is a source of great gain. That the gain should be obtained for the nation at large is both practicable and desirable. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Continue the quotation from Mill. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I shall leave the honorable member to continue the quotation. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! I again appeal to honorable members to cease their continuous interjections. I remind the honorable member for Richmond, the honorable member for Parkes, and other honorable members that they will have ample opportunity to discuss this matter. Older members of the House especially should recognise that if they continue to interject the honorable member speaking is prevented from making his speech. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I rise to a point of order. I protest that the honorable member for Calare is not justified in quoting, after correction, a part of a passage from a writer and declining to quote the rest of it. The honorable member in so doing is misleading the House. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- I point out to the honorable member for Parkes that in raising his point of order he was highly disorderly, since he rose deliberately to refute a statement made by an honorable member in the middle of his speech, fr is not possible for me to prevent that kind of thing if it is done under the pretence of raising a point of order. That is one of the most disorderly practices which could be indulged in by any member of the House, and I ask the honorable member for Parkes not to repeat it. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I emphasize the fact that no less an authority than John Stuart Mill points out that the question of profit underlies the issue of notes, and that it is both practicable and desirable that the State should issue them. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- And there the honorable member stops. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I do not know what the honorable member for Parkes desires. If he thinks that he can quote in support of his opinions the views of John Stuart Mill, he is at liberty to do so. The House would not care to have me read the whole of the works of that author merely to satisfy the honorable member for Parkes. Another authority I should like to quote on this matter is the economic writer Ricardo. He says - The advantage accruing to the State, and therefore to the public, from issuing paper money is sufficiently manifest, as it would exchange a portion of the National Debt on which interest is paid by the public into a debt bearing no interest. The Banking Commission that sat in Sydney in 1892 gave expression to similar views. The Commission reported in favour of the issue of notes under the control and with the guarantee of the Government, and a Commission that sat in Victoria at the same time, and which was quoted at length by the Prime Minister the other night, agreed with the principle thus laid down. I desire to call the attention of the honorable member to the fact that in the Old World, where large financial transactions take place, certain banks, although not directly State banks, have behind them State guarantees. In that connexion I would point to the Mother Country itself. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- No one disputes it. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Then that ought to be a reply to the honorable member's contention that a private bank rather than the State is to be trusted with a note issue. The Bank of England, although not a Government bank in the sense that we understand it, largely discharges its duties in conjunction with the Government of the Mother Country, and under its legislation the Government can give it authority to exceed a certain amount of issue. That authority has been given in times of stress. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- What cover has the Bank of England for its notes? {: .speaker-KTU} ##### Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- Fifteen and threequarter millions are issued without any gold cover. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Under certain conditions it is laid down that in times of financial trial the regulations as to cover can be suspended, and they have been so suspended. In France not a great while ago there were in circulation £100,000,000 in notes issued by the Government and controlled by the Bank of France. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- They have £194,000,000 in circulation. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- 1 was quoting from the work which I looked up a little while ago, but I admit it is not a late one. Those notes have the guarantee of the State behind them although they are issued by the Bank of France, which, being practically the Government Bank, has a monopoly of the note issue. In Ger- many the Government issued ,£120,000,000 worth of notes through their financial institutions j while America has about £200,000.000 worth of notes in the shape of gold bonds, or greenbacks, in circulation, with the guarantee of the Republic behind them. Canada took over an issue of about £8,000,000. The whole of the paper money issued in Canada is under the control of the Government, as is proposed here. Queensland embarked on a similar undertaking years ago, with considerable profit to the Government, and to the people generally. The Bank of New Zealand is practically in the same position in relation to the Government of the Dominion. as is the Bank of England in relation to the Imperial Government. Only the other day a deputation waited upon the Prime Minister to -advocate the establishment of a State Bank. He' replied that, although in years gone by, he was a strong advocate of a State Bank, yet the present relationship of the Government with the Bank of New Zealand was' such that there was no longer an opening for the establishment of a State Bank. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Can the honorable member name- a single bank in the world with only 25 per cent, of gold backing? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I can point the honorable member to the bank crisis in Australia, not twenty years ago, when the so-called gold reserve was not there to back the notes when the people demanded the backing that was guaranteed. I remember, at the time of that financial crisis, coming into a town from a country district. I went to a stable to get a feed for my horse, and tendered a bank note, which the honorable member -for Parkes would say had the gold backing that' he now argues that the present bank notes have. Yet my bank note was refused because the bank that issued it had that morning put up its shutters. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Has not that occurred to State notes in half-a-dozen countries in the world ? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- That may be so, but it could not have happened under a sufficiently good guarantee. For a considerable time people were at their wit's end, not because they did not have the money, but because they held the money in a paper form that the banks were not in a position to liquidate. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The State had to come to the rescue of the banks. 1470 *Australian* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Notes Bill.* {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- It was only when the State guaranteed the notes that the banks recovered, and their notes were again accepted as a medium of exchange. When I came here from New South Wales I found that a charge was made for cashing a note issued by a bank in New South Wales. In my simplicity, I thought that if I took a Bank of New South Wales note issued in Sydney, and presented it at the office of the same bank in Melbourne, they would honour it without making a deduction, just as they would in Sydney, but I found that their own bank in Melbourne required a discount for cashing it. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- And they will require the same discount with the State note in another State. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I hope the Prime Minister will see that that is not so, but that the Australian note will have its face value all over Australia, and that this practice of bleeding people who travel from one State to another, which obtained under the old State conditions, will end. I hope that in this matter we shall come near the principles which the honorable member for Parkes used to talk about in pre- Federal days, when he said that we would be one people, with one flag, one destiny, and one bank note. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- If these notes are payable in gold in Melbourne only, people will have to pay in other States. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- That shows another way in which the public have been taken down in connexion with the use of paper money. I did not object when.it was a question of cashing the note of a bank in one State at a bank in another State, but when it came to a question of a note issued by a bank in one State being subjected to a charge at its branch in another State it seemed a little too strong. But that is not all. On one occasion when I was about to start for MelbourneI went into a bank in Sydney near the closing hour and presented a note which I did not notice at the moment had been issued by another Sydney bank. I was refused cash for it by the officer in charge. He said that the note had not been issued by his bank, but by another bank, and that I must go there to get it cashed. As it was impossible for me to get to the other bank before its doors closed, I told the officer that he would oblige me very much indeed if he could see his way to cash the note, but his reply was that it would not convenience him, and that I would have to go to the other bank for the coin. That experience represents some of the difficulties which the public have had to contend with in dealing with the banks. The Government propose a means of simplifying this means of exchange and making it more acceptable to the general community. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- On Monday last I had to send to a post-office three miles away to get a postal note cashed. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- Probably the person who issued the postal note to the honorable gentleman had made it payable at that particular office, as he was entitled to do. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- No; there are only some offices where postal notes are paid. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- But for that condition the honorable member could get a postal note cashed at any post-office in Australia, as he could get a Government bank note paid. The Government propose to remove a number of the little pinpricks and difficulties which the general public have had to put up with in connexion with the issue of notes by private banks and private syndicates, by issuing a note which will have a face value all over the Commonwealth, and which can be liquidated at any well-conducted place of business which endeavours to convenience the general' public. It is laid down by economic authorities that the profits connected with this business belong to the State, and that the responsibility of guaranteeing this medium of exchange is one which properly devolves upon the State. Althoughthis business is controlled by private syndicates, in times of great crises the State is appealed to to maintain the solvency of this means of exchange. {: .speaker-KTT} ##### Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What does the honorable member mean by a syndicate note? I never heard of such a thing. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN: -- I refer to a note which is issued by a private company of men who are combined together for the purpose of gain in matters of trade and commerce. I will call it a bank note if the honorable member prefers that designation, It seems to me that a great convenience will be afforded the general public by having a note which can be liquidated all over the Commonwealth with the least inconvenience and the least amount of friction. I believe that the proposal of the Government will commend itself to the general public, and it has my approval. *Australian.* [11 August, 1910.] *Notes BilI.* 1471 {: #subdebate-12-0-s2 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- At this late hour I ask the Prime Minister if he will consent to an adjournment of the debate, because I could not possibly finish my remarks in time to catch my train. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I regret *very* much that 1 cannot. The continuation of the debate is necessitated by what took place earlier in the sitting. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am very sorry that at this hour of the night I am obliged to enter upon the discussion of a question which demands from every honorable member the deepest consideration. It is utterly impossible for us at this hour, when we are all tired, to grasp the technical details of this measure in any shape or form, and I again ask the Prime Minister to consent to an adjournment of the debate. {: .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order!I I ask the honorable member to confine himself to the question before the Chair. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I protest most strongly against being called upon to discuss the measure at this hour. It deals with a subject of the greatest importance. We cannot devote too close attention to the subject, nor is it possible for us to overestimate its importance. I recognise that it is a subject on which the high economic authorities which the honorable member for Calare quoted have made certain statements ; but there are economic authorities standing just as high in the world's repute who express opposite views. This is a question upon which we find a very wide divergence of opinion amongst great political economists, not only of tie present day, but ever since political economy has been understood as a science. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- I think, **Mr. Speaker** that we ought to have a quorum. [Quorum *formed.]* {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- This is a subject upon which the most fallacious' theories have been expounded, and in connexion with which Governments have made the most egregious blunders, that have landed their people in circumstances of the greatest disaster. {: .speaker-JM8} ##### Mr Archibald: -- What Governments have done that? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I dare say that. I could name a dozen. At the present time the notes of the Argentine Republic are. at a very considerable discount. There have been times when the British Government, in connexion with this very subject, have passed laws which have landed their people in circumstances of the greatest distress. If we go back to the history of the greenbacks in the United States, what do we find ? Go to France, and we have a history of distress caused by Government interference in this direction. This is a subject upon which Governments have blundered over and over again, and will continue to blunder to the end of time. 'I must confess to a little surprise that the Prime Minister, in his able exposition of the Bill, did not enter upon a discussion of those economic theories upon which he bases his proposed issue of Australian notes. When a Government presents to the country a change in its currency, so great, so far-reaching, as this is going to be, it is only right that we should have from it a full statement of the theories upon which that change is based. That should be done in order that we might be able to judge how far it is possible to reconcile those theories with our own. I was glad in a way to hear the Prime Minister, in introducing this measure, tell us that it was not to be made a party matter. I do not know whether honorable members of his party have a perfectly free hand to vote as they please. I should like to think that they have. I should like to think that they are able to review dispassionately the whole of this all-important matter, free to form a judgment of their own, and to vote exactly as their consciences direct. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- That is quite correct. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I am glad to hear it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr Joseph Cook: -- Let us have a quorum, **Mr. Speaker.[Quorum** *formed.]* {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- It is a very great pity that, whilst the Prime Minister was moving the second reading of this Bill, and the honorable member for Angas, later on, was giving the House the benefit of his great experience and learning upon the subject, there were so few members of the Labour party in the chamber. Surely, if they are free to form their own opinions, and to vote upon the Bill in the way they think best for the interests' of Australia, they should be present and give their earnest attention to the question. The great consideration that we must bear in mind is whether this change in our currency will really be for the benefit of the people. It is not a question of whether it is going to hit the banks. Are we securing for our people those three great advantages of which the Prime Minister spoke in introducing the Bill; that is to say, a greater stability, a greater elasticity, and a greater convertibility? Then, further, we have 472 *Commonwealth Conciliation* [SENATE.] *and Arbitration Biil.* to consider whether this note issue is suited to the needs of our people, our commerce, and our rural industries, and lastly, whether it is going to put pounds, shillings, and pence into the pockets of the taxpayers? I ask permission to continue my remarks on a future occasion. Leave granted; debate adjourned. {: .page-start } page 1472 {:#debate-13} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-13-0} #### Special Adjournment - Cashing of Postal Notes {: #subdebate-13-0-s0 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP -- I move - >That the House do now adjourn. It is evident that -we shall have to sit a little earlier and a little later. It is intended on Wednesday to meet at half-past ten in the morning, and to close at the dinner-hour adjournment, after which I understand honorable members are to be entertained. I make this intimation in order that honorable members may make their arrangements to suit. {: #subdebate-13-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta -- I desire to call attention to a real grievance bearing on the question of Government paper money. Complaint has been made as to the banking facilities, and one honorable member said he was actually asked on one occasion to go across the street before he could get gold for a note. I may say that last Monday, at the local post-office, where I live, I was calmly told when I presented a postal note - and correctly told - that it was not a paying office, and that in order to get cash I would have to go to Parramatta three miles distant. {: .speaker-KZA} ##### Mr West: -- The honorable member would not have had to do that in the case of a Commonwealth note. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK: -- The honorable member, as usual, is wrong, because with a Commonwealth note I should have had to go to Melbourne. I am. one of those unfortunates who live away from banking facilities, and our only bank is the post-office. I presented a piece of paper worth 20s., for which threepence had been paid, and it seems an anomaly that the office which sells such notes does not also cash them. Here is an inconvertible note with a vengeance, and I hope the Postmaster-General will see if he cannot extend cashing facilities to more of the country post-offices. Question resolvedin the affirmative. House adjournedat 11.30 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 11 August 1910, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1910/19100811_reps_4_56/>.