House of Representatives
4 December 1908

3^rd Parliament · 3^rd Session

QUESTION
- NEW HEBRIDES: PREFERENTIAL . TARIFF
QUESTION
- SELECT COMMITTEE ON STRIPPER-HARVESTERS AND DRILLS
QUESTION
- CONDUCT OF BUSINESS
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH SERVICES PERFORMED BY STATES
QUESTION
- FISCAL POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT
QUESTION
- DEFENCE DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE : SUPERNUMERARIES
QUESTION
- ERROR IN TELEGRAM
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

– Surely we are not expected to act like dumb driven cattle. I, for one, will not do so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I suggest that the Prime Minister should do what he indicated late yesterday it was his intention to do, namely, proceed with the consideration of business until the usual hour of adjournment-to-day. If an earnest effort is made in that direction, there should be no difficulty about clearing the businesspaper next week in the time afforded by the ordinary sitting days. Nothing shall be wanting on my part to assist in the completion of ordinary current business next week; therefore I hope that there will be no attempt at heroics. I, and others, have made arrangements to leave Melbourne to-day at the usual hour, returning on Monday for an evening sitting; and I am sure that, with a little cooperation, we shall be able to finish our work next week.

page 2726

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH SERVICES PERFORMED BY STATES

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I wish to draw attention to a practice which is growing up, of asking the Governments of the States to contribute towards the cost of what are wholly Commonwealth services, such as the transport of mails, construction of telegraphs, telephones, &c. Yesterday the Postmaster-General, in answer to a question, said that the Government would be prepared to accept a . certain mail tender, if the Government of Western Australia would contribute so much. Is not this taking too narrow a view of our responsibilities ?

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– The Governments of the States charge us for the transport of mails and for all other services which they render.

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– I ask the Prime Minister to give the matter consideration. We represent the whole people, and I do not think it right to apply to the Government of any particular State for assistance in the carrying on of services for which the Commonwealth is absolutely responsible, especially in view of the fact that an action of the late Government resulted in an unanticipated change in the financial position of the States?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I am not in a position to express now an opinion as to the rights or wrongs of the specific case which the right honorable member has in his mind; tout the whole matter will have fair consideration.

page 2727

QUESTION

FISCAL POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT

Tenders for Ventilating Fans

Mr COON:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Minister of Home Affairs whether, in view of the fact that tenders are being called for the provision of ventilating fans in the General Post Office, Melbourne, he is prepared to give an opportunity to Australian manufacturers to tender? At present the latter are debarred.

Mr MAHON:
Minister for Home Affairs · COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– At present I am not advised as to the position; but may have the information later on.

Mr COON:

– In view of that answer, I should like to know whether the Prime Minister is prepared to announce what is the fiscal policy of the Government - whether they are protectionists or freetraders ?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The Government will have no hesitation in declaring their policy at the proper time.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Prime Minister say whether it is the intention of the Government to re-open the fiscal question before or at the next general election ?

Mr FISHER:

– I think my reply to the honorable member for Batman is also a reply to the honorable member for Robertson. The Government will declare their policy at the proper time and place.

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask the Minister of Home Affairs whether in the matter referred to by the honorable member for Batman, he is not simply following the precedent of his predecessor in the Government whom the honorable member for Batman su pported ?

Mr MAHON:

– The honorable member’s assumption is correct. Since replying to a former question, I have ascertained that the fact is as now stated by the honorable member for Cook. Not only was this specification prepared when the Deakin Government were in office, but several of these fans were installed under their authority. Three of them are now installed in this building.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In view of the declarations of Ministers, repeated almost every day of the week, that they are following the precedent of their predecessors, even into the minutice into the administration of their work-

Mr Mahon:

– The Reid-McLean Government did the same.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In view of the declaration that the Ministry are slavishly following their predecessors in every particular, will the Prime Minister say why they turned the late Government out of office?

Mr FISHER:

– The honorable member assumes a fact, and then builds up an argument on it. No such declaration has been made or is necessary.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is made every day by members of the Labour Party.

page 2727

QUESTION

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Free Railway Travelling - Uniforms

Mr McDONALD:

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether, in considering the matter laid before him by the right honorable member for Swan, he will take into consideration the desirability of requesting the States to carry the Defence Forces free on the railwavs.

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– That and all other matters in the same connexion which have been referred to will receive consideration at the hands of the Government.

Dr CARTY SALMON:
LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

– In view of the very strong recommendations made by a responsible officer, to whom the question of uniforms for the Defence Forces was referred, does the Government intend, notwithstanding the efforts of one peacocky ex-member of the forces, to carry out the reform at once ?

Mr HUTCHISON:
Minister (without portfolio) · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The Minister of Defence, when he has all the evidence before him, will act on his own responsibility in this matter.

page 2728

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE : SUPERNUMERARIES

Mr WATKINS:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Whatit is the total number of supernumerary hands employed in the Government Printing Office ?
How many of such have been employed for3,5,10,and20years respectively?
Is it not a fact that a number of these hands are engaged on the night shift, and are employed irregular hours owing to the urgent nature of their work?
Is annual leave allowed to supernumeraries ?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

1.581.

For three years 61,for five years 43, for ten years 79, for twenty years 23.
A number of the hands are engaged on a night staff. Their hours have been fairly regular this session.
Annual leave is not allowed to supernumeraries, but all those employed for over twelve months are paid for all public holidays, which this year total19½.

page 2728

QUESTION

ERROR IN TELEGRAM

Mr BOWDEN:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Was any mistake made in the despatch of a telegram from Mr. R. L. Moore, of Lithgow, to Mr. J. Hackett, Randwick, on 17th October last?
Who was responsible for that mistake?
Was any loss sustained by Mr. Moore through the error ?
Does the Department propose to compensate Mr. Moore for any loss sustained?

Mr THOMAS:
Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have not heard anything of this matter, but will have inquiries made, and furnish answers in due course.

page 2728

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

In Committee of Supply (Consideration resumed from 3rd December, vide page 2697) :

Department of Home Affairs

Division 21(Administrative Staff), £11,135

Upon which Mr. Page had moved by way of amendment -

That the item “ Secretary,£900 “ be reduced by £100.

As increments to officers of the clerical division, class 5, and all officers of general division are provided on the draft Estimates by “the Departments concerned, the Commissioner is unable to say what provision in this regard has been inserted in the iqoS-9 Estimates. It is difficult to give the actual increases in any given financial year for the reason that under the Public Service Act the year closes with the 31st December, and the Commissioner’s returns are made up on that date, whereas the Treasury financial year closes on 31st July. Details of the expenditure on increments actually paid foi the calender years 1906 and 1907, have, however, been compiled, and from these may be gathered a fairly approximate idea of the probable expenditure that will be incurred for 1908-9 on increments. The total increments for the two years was as under -

Colonel Foxton. - Is it not in the nature of a mutual check?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No, we cannot have that.

Sir John Forrest:

– The head of a Department has no power to increase salaries.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But he has. power to talk to the Commissioner in a way that I think is not desirable. In nine cases out of ten where a conflict arises between the Commissioner and the head of a Department, the Minister will be with his Secretary. One of the reasons for this is that the Secretary has the ear of the Minister while the Public Service Commissioner has not. The Service would be improved if every member of it, from the highest to the lowest, were placed under the Commissioner. In order that that may be done, the status of the Commissioner himself might with advantage be raised. It is too near the status and position of some officers who are without his control, and who are immediately under the eyes of Ministers. The moment we begin to set up men with equal authority and responsibility, human nature begins to work and there is trouble. That has been our experience in connexion with the Commonwealth Service. In New South Wales, where the Public Service Board controls every appointment from the top to the bottom of the service, there has never been the slightest trouble.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– I can indorse all that has been said by the honorable member for Parramatta. I wish it to be clearly understood that I shall vote for this amendment, not because 1 desire to attack any officer, but because 1 have to carry out a pledge that I have given to my constituents. Every member of the Service, from the humblest individual who sweeps out an office to the highest salaried officer, should be under the same rule, and have equal chances of advancement. We find, however, that the Public Service Commissioner has no control over certain officers. My contention is that if he is fit to control men who will ultimately become heads of Departments, he is fit to control! those who already occupy such positions. I can speak of the great .capacity and! mental equipment not only of Colonel Miller and Mr. Garran, but of other officers. Mr. Knibbs, for instance, is now producing one of the finest statistical works published outside the United States of America. As honorable members are aware, the Government of the United States probably spends £10 to every -£i expended by other countries on the collection of statistical information ; but Mr. Knibbs is producing for the Commonwealth a. work that will rival even some of the finest statistical productions of America. I should like to ask honorable members’ whether they are aware of the abominable system observed in every Department in regard tothe female office cleaners. This Parliament for the first time in history determined that men and women in the service should receive equal pay for equal work, and that a minimum wage of ^104 per annum should be fixed. That provision, however, is being evaded in many ways. I have only one instance of the kind that I can absolutely prove, and I can certainly show that the Public Service Commissioner has taken one man out of his turn. I can> forgive him for that, because the case was an exceptional one, and no doubt if I occupied his position there would be more. I have received many reports to the effect that this course is repeatedly followed by him j but such inquiries as I have been able to make have not borne out that complaint. I repeat, however, that there is an abominable and iniquitous system followed in regard to the women cleaners,- and that it should be abolished. I have found Colonel Miller an able man with a judicial mind, and ready comprehension. There is one officer in his Department who, as the result of action recently taken by him, Wil save not only the Commonwealth, but every State a very considerable expenditure. I allude to Mr. Oldham, the officer in charge- of the electoral branch, whose action in abolishing the present absurd system of collecting the rolls will save Victoria more, perhaps, than any other State, a very considerable expenditure. I repeat that those who think that I shall vote against these increases because of personal considerations will do me an injustice. I am pledged to try to bring every officer of the service under the same rule and charter. No one can deny that heads of Departments have many opportunities to meet Ministers, and that the personal equation is one that we cannot get away from. We should endeavour, however, as far as possible, to minimize its effects. I should have been glad had our party been able to take up the reins of administration with a majority of one behind it. We should then have been able to get away from precedent, and, in regard to any proposed expenditure that we believe to be unwise, to have voted as our consciences dictated. In this case we are making no attack upon an individual, but are simply endeavouring to remedy what we believe to be wrong.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

– I should like to bring under the notice of the Minister of Home Affairs the delay that has taken place in regard to the acquisition of a site for a’ new post-office at Lithgow. When the honorable member for EdenMonaro held office as Postmaster-General, he selected a site there; but so far as I can ascertain no further action has been taken, although plans for the new building have been prepared and submitted to the Department. The owner of the land in question put it under offer to the Department, and has held it ever since.

Mr Mahon:

– I have recently given instructions that the purchase of the site is to be proceeded with at once.

Question - That the item “Secretary, £900 “ be reduced by£100 - put. The -Committee divided.

Ayes……… 10

Noes……… 34

Majority .:. … 24

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr COON:
Batman

– I move -

That the item “Incidental and Petty Cash expenditure,£400,” be left out.

I take this action in order that I may obtain from the Minister a reply to my question whether the specifications for tenders for fans, to be placed in the Melbourne General Post Office, will be so altered as to give an Australian manufacturer the opportunity to tender. At present “Sirocco” fans are specified. They are imported fans, and I wish to give a local man a chance. I gave notice earlier of my intention to take this action to test the feeling of the Committee.

The CHAIRMAN:

– That is so; but I would point out that the item has nothing to do with the fans in question. Probably the work to which the honorable member alludes is provided for in the Works Estimates, which have been passed.

Mr COON:

– The words “incidental expenditure” may cover this work.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Were I to accept that suggestion, I could not shut out the discussion of any item.

Mr COON:

– This appears to me to be the only way in which I can obtain an answer to my question, unless I move the Chairman out of the chair.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– This seems to me not to be the place to discuss the matter. ‘My honorable friend should have asked this question when the first item of the division was before the Committee, and, I have no doubt, could raise the matter in connexion with the Estimates of the Postmaster-General.

Dr Wilson:

– Or in connexion with the Estimates for the Public Works staff.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes, on division 24.

Dr CARTY SALMON:
Laanecoorie

– My experience is that every opportunity is given to honorable members to obtain information by means of amendments such as this, and I hope that the Minister will not take advantage of any technicality.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

-There is an orderly way of doing business.

Dr.CARTYSALMON. - The honorable member has been told that he should have brought the matter up under Estimates which have been passed, a very familiar way of side-tracking one who wishes to ask inconvenient questions. We expect different treatment from Ministers. Mv view is that a member can attach what significance he pleases to any motion in connexion with the Estimates.

Colonel Foxton.-If the amendment relates to a specific item, the discussion must be confined to that item.

Mr Watson:

– Yes. Otherwise we should have irrelevant discussions on every item.

Dr CARTY SALMON:

– Great latitude is allowed in dealing with Estimates, almost any excuse serving to connect a discussion with an amendment. I ask for consideration to an honorable member who desires to do what is frequently done when Estimates are under discussion.

Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– The Government has no desire to burke discussion, but the Minister in charge of the Estimates is entitled to make such statements as he may desire to make in due order. The honorable member for Batman will be afforded an opportunity, at a later stage, to put his question, and will receive a reply to it.”

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

– Quite right, too !

Colonel FOXTON.- I am not sure that it is quite right. In any case, that is the reason I have always refrained from approaching the Commissioner on any subject whatever ; I do not think I have ever met him, and, as a matter of fact, if I met him in the street, I should not know him. I have always -understood that, if a Member of Parliament interviewed him in connexion with a public servant, that public servant was likely to have a black mark placed against him. For a strong man, I think that is rather an unreasonable position on the part of the Commissioner. Nothing is more objectionable, of course, than for Members of Parliament to button-hole any official in such a position for the purpose of exercising undue or political influence in favour of any public servant. But if members of either House are possessed of information in ;regard to the ability or character of any officers in the States which they represent - and we must remember that Australia is very large, and that the ‘Commissioner can have no personal knowledge of the vast majority of public servants - the Commissioner might very fairly listen and give due consideration to the facts. A strong man would be capable of doing so, and I understand that Mr. McLachlan, the Public Service Commissioner, is a strong man, and eminently suitable for his position. For the reasons I have indicated, and because I was” challenged in the matter, I have taken this opportunity to mention the name of Mr. Lawson. He lias been only a limited time in the service of the Commonwealth ; and his distinguished record in the State may not be in the knowledge of the Commissioner. For aught I know, this very excellent officer might be regarded just as any other officer might be, who happened to be in charge of this office in Queensland. The Commissioner may know the very good work he is doing now, but not be aware of his exceptional administrative capacity in other directions.

Mr Page:

– I think the Public Service Inspector has, in high terms, advised the Commissioner as to the capabilities of this officer.

Mr Groom:

– The difficulty in the case is that the Commissioner has assessed particular offices according to the value he thinks the services justify, and according to the value of an officer in his administrative capacity.

Colonel FOXTON. - I do not wish it to be inferred that I advocate an increase of Mr. Lawson’s salary while he holds his present office. I am merely pointing out that, with his attainments, he may now be misplaced, owing to his value not being known. I am not saying that the salary is inadequate for the present office, but merely wish to emphasize the point that, if a vacancy in another and higher branch of the service occurs, a gentleman of the attainments of Mr. Lawson should have due consideration. His present office, is most important, but there are still more important offices ; there is a possibility that a gentleman of Mr. Lawson’s abilities may be thrown away.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

.- The idea presented by the honorable member for Brisbane is one that might be extended without limit. If I were to attempt to point out the cases of subordinate officers practically carrying their superior officers on their backs, I should occupy the time of the Committee indefinitely with facts as to the whole of the Departments. Surely we have confidence in the present system of a Public Service Commissioner, or we have not. If we believe the Public Service Commissioner to be the best judge of the qualifications oJ public servants, we should support him until we discover that he is unfitted for his position. The honorable member for Brisbane practically indicated that, in the case he presented, the Commissioner had failed to recognise the supreme administrative ability of this officer.

Mr Page:

– The honorable member for Brisbane never said any such thing.

Mr WEBSTER:

– The last words of the honorable member for Brisbane were that, in all probability, the claims of ibis officer-

Colonel Foxton. - I never said that the officer had any claims.

Mr WEBSTER:

– But the honorable member said that this officer’s ability should be considered.

Colonel Foxton. - I said that it would justify his promotion.

Mr WEBSTER:

– Where is the difference ?

Colonel Foxton. - I do not like to be misquoted.

Mr WEBSTER:

– I had. no intention to misquote ; and can only say that that was the impression left on my mind. However, I hope ‘the idea of the honorable member for Brisbane will ‘not be carried out, because it would mean unending trouble, seeing that, in all public services, we have junior officers with more ability, energy, and application: than those who are placed over them. This must inevitably occur, however, since seniority ‘is to some extent recognised. Of course, if there were any striking case of exceptional talent going to waste, there could be no objection to forwarding information to. the Commissioner, always providing that no injury was done to other public servants, although, in that connexion, there is always a danger. The position is so delicate that I would not for one moment think of interfering and indicating to the Commissioner what, in my opinion, was or was not the proper course to pursue.

Colonel Foxton. - The honorable member may do what he likes - I shall.

,- When the salary of the Secretary to the Department was under discussion a number of honorable members expressed regret that that officer was not under the jurisdiction of the Public Service Commissioner, in order that his position should be free from, Parliamentary or political influence. But, as soon as we have disposed of that question, the case of a gentleman, who is under the jurisdiction of the Public Service Commissioner, is brought forward. If we are going to discuss the positions of the various officers under the Commissioner, what becomes of the question of political control or influence? This particular gentleman seems to have been under the direction of the honorable member for Brisbane in Queensland. If influence is brought to bear in cases of this kind, the result is likely to be just as bad as in the case of the Secretary to a Department, who is directly under the control of the Minister. If we are to have these divided opinions, and to discuss the cases of individual members of the service, the consideration of the Estimates will occupy a good many more days.

Colonel Foxton. - I mentioned the matter only because I was challenged to name a case.

Mr STORRER:

– It is not advisable to bring cases of individual public servants before the Committee. We all know officers in our respective States whom we consider to be very good and clever; but if we intend to deal with individual cases here, we might as well abolish thePublic Service Commissioner and all his paraphernalia. I shall not occupy time by bringing forward the cases of all the able men that we have in Tasmania.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 23 (Public Service Commis sioner), . £11,058, agreed to.

Division 24 (Public Works Staff),

Mr COON:
Batman

– In order to test the feeling of the Committee on the question of whether Australian tenderers should be given an opportunity of tendering for the supply of the ventilating fans that I have mentioned, I move -

That the item, “ Director-General,£900,” be reduced by £1.

– Then they have no right to occupy the Treasury bench. The following report appeared in the Argus of 2 Ist October last, regarding the trial of the Burkett fan at Bendigo -

Bendigo, Friday. - The Mines Department axe til lowing inventors of fans trials at the Great Extended Hustler’s Mine. This evening a public trial was given of the Burkett suction fan. Th:s fan, which is styled a 6-ft. Burkett fan, has been working over the “Pups” shaft, since October 9, with very satisfactory results.

The trial was conducted in the presence of Mr. A. H. Merrin, Chief Inspector of Mines, Messrs. Livingston and Cotter, M.L.A.’s -

Mr. Cotter was recently returned to the

– He was defining his attitude towards the Government.

Mr CROUCH:

– He had a right to do so. No doubt the Minister, having so recently taken office, is not yet conversant with all the details coming under his control ; but his natural courtesy should lead him to give what explanation he can as soon as possible.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– There has been widespread dissatisfaction because the Victorian Government, notwithstanding a resolution of the State Parliament against the practice, has imported goods which could be manufactured here. Our manufacturers, in addition to the protection which they get from the Tariff, ought to be put on an equal footing with manufacturers abroad in tendering for Government supplies. In this case it has been notified in the Gazette that-

Tenders will be received …. for Ventilation of General Post Office, Melbourne, with Fans, Motors, Piping, etc., complete.

Mr Mahon:

– I had not seen that advertisement before last night.

Dr MALONEY:

– The seventh paragraph of the specification mentions a Sirocco fan, which, I understand, cannot be madehere, and therefore I ask the Minister to authorize an alteration which will allow Australian manufacturers to compete. Fans are made in an establishment located in the electorate of the Minister of Trade and Customs, and in other parts of the Commonwealth, and both protectionists and free-traders are agreed that fair play should be given to Australian manufacturers by putting them on the same footing, in the matter of tenders, with manufacturers abroad. I do not know anything about the merits of the Australian fan, but the statement of the honorable member for Batman, that itis £50 cheaper, and requires less power, should be carefully examined. I am glad that the late Postmaster-General did so much for the comfort of the attendants in the telephone exchange. The medical members of the Committee will indorse my statement that no occupation puts a more severe strain on mental energy than does that of attending to telephones. When a member of the State House, I frequently drew attention to this matter, and the result has been a considerable shortening of hours. I have stated emphatically that a female telephone attendant ought not to be on duty formore than four hours a day, if she is to continue her work for the natural term ofemployment, which would be about 20 or 25 years. Let honorable members who are not acquainted with the nature of the work visit the Exchange here, in Sydney, or in some other important centre, and remain there for ten minutes during a busy part of the day. Any one doing so would be disinclined to accept employment there himself for twice the remuneration he receives as a member of Parliament. Even in this building we require fans and other devices to keep the atmosphere fresh and cool, and similar conveniences are much more needed in a building where the roof is glass and galvanized iron, and not very high above the heads of the operators.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I cannot help thinking that the Minister has an explanation to give. I have seen him in this mood before, and I have a shrewd suspicion that he has been quietly preparing a reply which will completely answer the statements of the honorable member for Batman. That is my interpretation of his sphinx-like attitude. A gross injustice has been done to local manufacturers if the specifications prevent them from tendering. Many years ago, in New South Wales, finding that Mr. Sandford could not tender for Government iron work because foreign brands were always specified, I brought the matter under the notice of my then chief, the right honorable member for East Sydney, and he had the prohibition removed. Every honorable member must be of the opinion that we should give fair play to our inventors, manufacturers and producers, and I shall be glad to hear from the Minister why the advertisement asking for tenders for the installation of fans in the Melbourne Post Office has not been so drawn up that our manufacturers may tender. There should be a complete and careful examination of every invention on the market, to ascertain whether it can do the work required. I am sure that there will be no difficulty in getting fair play for our manufacturers from the Minister.

Mr MAHON:
Minister of Home Affairs · Coolgardie · ALP

– The honorable and learned member for Corio, having been out of the Chamber for some time, is not perhaps aware that this is the first opportunity offered me to give the required information. Whatever others may do, I shall not transgress the Standing Orders. Until the item was reached, any remarks about these fans would have been irrelevant to the question before the Chair. This, then, is the earliest moment at which it would have been orderly for me to intervene in the debate. Since the item was reached I rose once or twice, but other honorable members were called on by the’ Chairman.

Mr Crouch:

– It seems to me that the division was being put.

Mr MAHON:

– No, the division had not been put, nor do I think the question of a reduction of the item had even been stated. Now, as to the complaint of the honorable member for Batman. He could have had all the facts by simply asking for them quietly from the Secretary to the

Department or from me. He chose to adopt another course. It pleased him to keep the matter secret until after midnight, when, with much theatrical display, as if a general election were imminent-

Mr Coon:

– I am not afraid of a general election if the Minister is.

Mr MAHON:

– He made his disclosure. I find myself unable to sympathize with theatrical attempts to make political capital out of some alleged departmental irregularity. Neither on this occasion nor henceforward shall I lend myself to such paltry projects. The honorable member for Batman has produced some advertisement to which my name is attached. As every one knows, all Departments of Government issue these notices in ordinary course, without any reference whatever to the Minister. As a matter of cold fact, I never saw this notice, and did not even know of its existence until he produced it. However, since the matter was brought up, I have found that, on the recommendation of the Director-General of Public Works, an order was given by the late Minister of Home Affairs as far back as 17th January of this year, authorizing an expenditure in connexion with the ventilation of Parliament House by means of these fans.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928

– It is nearly time that the advertisement was put in.

Mr MAHON:

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

– No blame appears to be attachable to the Minister in this case. He has done what any other Minister would do in similar circumstances. At the same time, while we are told that Australian manufacturers can tender, the word “ Sirocco “ remains in the specifications, and unless it is removed, local tenders for a fan which is not on all fours with the particular kind mentioned are likely to be rejected. I should like to see an open field for all manufacturers, Australian and European. We must have a machine that can do its work, and if it cannot be made in Australia, we must get it from Ireland, where this particular kind is made. There is no reason, however, why Australian manufacturers should not be given an opportunity of making a fan which presents all the advantages of the Sirocco. I exonerate the honorable member for Batman from any blame forbringing the matter forward.

Mr COON:
Batman

.- I wish to thank the Prime Minister for his courteous reply. It is very satisfactory, and I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 25(Census and Statistics), £12,744, agreed to.

Division 26(Meteorological Branch)

£19,559.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

. -I wish to call attention to the item of £1,000 for “ Installations for signalling flood and storm warning.” Last year £200 was voted, and only £12 spent. I am pleased to note the increase in the vote this year. The lives of many people are dependent upon a timely warning in the case of flood. I applied to the Department last year for a flood-warning station at Rosevale, about 32 miles above Ipswich, but the Department could not grant the request, although it would have cost only a few pounds. The matter, however, is of such great importance to thousands of residents below the point named, that I take this opportunity of calling the particular attention of the Minister to it. I understand that the Department obtained from the State Hydraulic Engineer a report which was altogether misleading. One does not care to bump up against officials and official reports, but that gentleman reported that the Bremer River took its rise in the Little Liverpool Range, when as a matter of fact it takes its rise 30 or 40 miles distant. A tributary from the Little Liverpool Range flows into the Bremer, so that the river drains a large area of country, including portion of the Darling Downs. A flood warning at the point suggested would enable the residents of the city of Ipswich, which contains from1 2,000 to 15,000 inhabitants, and also of the city of Brisbane, to get timely notice. This is not an isolated case. There are several localities in my own electorate which need such stations. Fortunately, we have not had any serious floods since 1893, but what has happened before will happen again, and it is only fair, in the interests of humanity, that if a few pounds expended by the Department of Home Affairs can save life, the money should be spent. I urge the Minister not to be parsimonious in administering this vote, but to establish flood-warning stations, which are not expensive, wherever they are badly needed.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

– I am pleased to see that a larger amount is proposed to be appropriated for the item mentioned by the honorable member for Moreton. Has this sum of £1,000 been put on the Estimates in consequence of requests from myself and other honorable members for necessary warnings to be posted at places where the public may take advantage of them? Last year, only -£12 was spent, although I persistently tried, ‘ but failed, to secure this relief in my electorate for many people whose stock,, and even lives, are at times in danger. This is a matter of serious importance to some parts of the Commonwealth. In the northwestern portions of New South Walessome of the best stock districts in Australia - there are occasions when it is absolutely necessary, with the river coming down so rapidly, that people should get notification of the rising of the waters. If they do not get warning, the topography - of the place is such that they are absolutely unable to remove their sheep from the flooded land to the surrounding sand ridges. Will the Minister state why the £zoo voted last year was not spent in giving this necessary relief? I could mention cases where there have been large sacrifices of stock, and in one or two instances even loss of life, through the neglect of provision for proper warning. Whenever I send applications of this kind on to the Department, I am informed that the Commonwealth has already expended the amount of money which it undertook to spend under some conditions laid clown in the early days of the Federation, and that since that fund has been absorbed, the only way in which more money can be obtained for the purpose is by appealing to the State Government to bear the extra cost of the warnings asked for. That sort of thing is not worthy of the Federal Parliament. Life and stock should not be endangered for want of a notice posted up at the local post-office. Provision can be easily made, especially in cases where telegraph or telephone wires are already erected. The Commonwealth should have sympathy with people who are faced with dangers over which they have no control, and which come upon them so suddenly that if they do not get proper warning they are helpless. I appeal to the Minister to make this vote of £1,000 a reality and not a pretence. Let us have at least some indication of the bonn fides of the Government in the way of granting a relief which every man who represents a country district knows is absolutely essential to the welfare of the people on the land. I compliment the Department on increasing the sum asked for on these Estimates. If we are entitled to pay £500 towards the Imperial Institute,- we are surely justified in making provision to protect the lives and property of the residents of the Commonwealth. I hope the Minister will give the Committee an assurance that every effort will be made by the Department to meet the demands which have been made by myself and other honorablemembers for the granting of this relief to people in country districts.

Mr MAHON:
Minister of Home Affairs · Coolgardie · ALP

.- Everybody will agree with the honorable member for Moreton and the honorable member ‘ for Gwydir as to the necessity for making greater provision for warning people against the danger of floods. Some larger provision is required, especially in the districts mentioned by the honorable member for Gwydir. Both honorablemembers dwelt on the small amount expended last year, but the vote on thoseEstimates was only a preliminary one, I am informed that on the Estimates for last year provision was not made for the whole year, as the branch was not inaugurated until the 1st January, 1908, at which date it was difficult to estimate requirements. The experience of the last twelve months has enabled the Department to gauge more accurately the amount which will be required for the current year. Anr officer of the Department has during thelast few months spent a great deal of his time in Queensland, being specially commissioned to examine and report on the matter. The Department is now considering the whole project; hence the larger vote which we now propose, andwhich we hope to utilize during the current year.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– What is trienature of the provision?

Mr MAHON:

– I have not all the details, but at a later stage, if the Committee so desire, I shall furnish fuller particulars. The Department of Meteorology was only taken over on 1st January last, and in view of the preliminary work involved in the organization of such a very large branch of the service, there was not time to fully consider the project. I can assure the Committee, however, that during; the coining year this matter will be very carefully considered, and that an effortwill be made to provide reliable and uptodate stations from which warnings of approaching floods may be sent to people in the various localities lower down these streams.

Dr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- I am the representative of a district which suffers, I suppose, more from periodical inundations than does any other part of the Commonwealth.

Mr Webster:

– And which) is also largely benefited by them.

Dr LIDDELL:

– As the honorable member, who is an authority on agriculture, rightly remarks, these inundations also benefit the lands over which they flow. It is well known that the Hunter River periodically overflows its banks. It has many tributaries such as the Cockfighter, the Williams, and the Paterson, which at times rise very rapidly, and as the honorable member for Gwydir has said, settlers in such localities sometimes suffer heavy loss of stock, because of their receiving no warning of an approaching flood. Those living in the district in which I reside are at times in hourly danger of their lives. It is only by receiving timely warning of approaching floods that they are able to avoid, not only serious loss of stock, but loss of human life. Large sums have been expended by the settlers to keep the flood waters from their lands. I have repeatedly received from constituents applications for the supply of better information as to the occurrence of floods, but when T have brought them before the responsible Minister I have invariably been told that the Department can do no more than it is doing. The Minister of Home Affairs has told us lhat the Department of Meteorology was only recently transferred to the Commonwealth, and that consequently it is not yet in a position to supply much information on this subject. I would remind him, however, that the Post and Telegraph Department, since it controls the telegraph stations, must play an important part in the dissemination of warnings. I fail to see why telegraph offices should not remain open after ordinary hours, when floods are imminent, so that timely warning may be sent to those in danger. The officers in charge ought to be well paid for overtime in such circumstances. It is only in a few cases, however, that this concession has been granted. I would urge the Minister toconfer ‘with the Postmaster-General, with a view .of inducing him to adopt a more liberal policy than we have hitherto had in this regard. Some time has elapsed since heavy floods took place in my electorate. The last occurred in 1893, whenan enormous stretch of territory, comprising some very valuable land was inundatedand great loss sustained. It is quite possible that before long we may have another inundation of the kind, and I therefore appeal to the Minister, while the sunyet shines, to complete arrangements for the dissemination of warnings of approaching flood’s. I am sure that the Government are anxious to assist those on the land, and’ I ask the Minister to have inquiries made, and, if necessary, to stretcha point in helping those residing in districts liable to be inundated to meet soformidable a danger.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 27 (Works and Buildings),

£127,36°-

Mr. JOHN THOMSON (Cowper> [3,j:7]- - -A- week or two ago I moved for a return showing the rents paid for buildings occupied for Commonwealth purposesin the capital cities of the different States, and in order to keep down the cost of compilation I did not ask that it should extend to buildings so used in country districts. =1 was greatly surprised by the information I obtained as to the rents we are paying’ for premises in the capitals of the States where permanent buildingsare likely to be required for all time. In most cases the rents so paid show a very large percentage on the cost of the buildings, and I am sure that we could cut down by one-half the rate of interest which those rentals represent if we were to borrow money at 4 per cent, to enable us to erect buildings of our own. As a rule, suitable premises cannot be obtained, and another point to be remembered is that most people think they have a right to charge a high rent for buildings required by- the. Government. We have very often to pay heavy rents in respect of premises that are wholly unsuitable for our purpose, and we could certainly accommodate ourselves much better by building offices of our own. I recognise that a number df the buildings included inthe return to which I refer will not be required when the Federal Capital is established. Many of them, and more particularly some of those occupied by the Commonwealth Government in Melbourne, will not be required when we remove to our permanent abode. But those are not the buildings that I have in mind. In many cases we are renting buildings for use as drill halls and post-offices, although we could secure much better accommodation by erecting our own premises. I am sure that the Minister is prepared to receive suggestions in a sympathetic way, and I would ask him before agreeing in future to rent any premises to consider whether the exigencies of the case might not be better served by the erection of Commonwealth buildings. In country districts, in many cases, we are leasing buildings for postal purposes that are unsuitable, not only because they lack the accommodation required for the officers as well as for the public, but because they have not been constructed with due regard for the prevailing climatic conditions. Last night I brought under the notice of the Minister the desirableness of Australian material being used as far as possible in the construction of Commonwealth buildings. I then brought before him an illustrated catalogue of building maaerials, and more particularly of Australian marble, prepared by the Technological Museum authorities in New South Wales, and he promised that where possible those materials would be used. I trust that the Minister will also agree, wherever possible, to acquire premises of our own, and I would suggest that with this object in view the Department should be allowed a larger vote to enable it to secure suitable sites in growing centres of population. I do not complain of the practice that has hitherto been adopted of renting premises for postal and other purposes in new towns or districts until the likelihood of “their permanence and expansion has been determined. Iri such places buildings are -secured on lease for one, two, or three years, and I suggest that during the currency of such leases, the Government, -where satisfied that towns are likely to be permanent, should anticipate development by securing suitable sites for their requirements there. I know of cases in which the Department has been put to great expense owing to the failure to secure lots early in the development of rising towns. When it has sought to secure a block of land, it has found very few allotments available, and has had to pay a high price to obtain a suitable site. I hope that the Minister will give consideration to these suggestions.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– In this division provision is made for the upkeep and maintenance of the public buildings under our own control - a matter concerning which there is much complaint. We are asked to vote this year for the State of New South Wales £18,300 for repairs and maintenance, £5,500 for sanitation and water supply, and £3,6_00 for fittings and furniture, a total of £40,633. Last year £42,452 was appropriated, and. only £36,748 expended, leaving an unexpended balance of £5,500. Many of the officers who have to live in these buildings have been seriously inconvenienced by being called upon to give up part of their private quarters for the accommodation of the public. Of course, they are promised that other provision will be made for them ; but these promises are often not carried out. I know of a case in which the. front room of the postmaster’s private quarters has been taken for the transaction of postal business, and, although he has been promised other accommodation, nothing has yet been done for him. Of course, the general assumption is that there is no money available; but I find that last year £5,500 of the sum voted was not spent. I hope that the Government will see that the votes of Parliament are spent, so that our officers may not be unnecessarily inconvenienced. Besides, the proper upkeep and maintenance of our public buildings is very important, and very often the expenditure of £1 on repairs would obviate a much larger expenditure later on.

Mr. MAHON (Coolgardie - Minister of Home Affairs [3.29]. - So largely do I share the views of the honorable member for Cowper, that some time ago I urged the Post and Telegraph Department to acquire premises of its own in Western Australia. That policy should certainly be pursued in agricultural and pastoral townships. It- has been reported that some of the towns on the goldfields may disappear by reason of the riving out of ore, and that, therefore, it is wiser to rent premises there. Still, as the Commonwealth annually pays, by way of rent, the very large sum of ,£29,669, something should be done to reduce this expenditure. I thank the honorable member for

Cowper for having drawn my attention to a very valuable publication. I hope that, wherever possible, Australian marble, timber, and other material, will be used in our public buildings. That is a policy which’ I have always supported. The expenditure upon the upkeep of our buildings in painting and repairs does not vary much from year to year, and there is not much opportunity for reducing it, except, as I have mentioned, by substituting our own buildings for rented premises. The view is held by some that the Commonwealth does better by renting buildings, because then it can move its quarters should the business centre of the town change, or should a settlement decline in importance. Where settlement is permanent, however, we should certainly have our own premises. In reply to the remarks of the honorable member for Calare, I would point out that it cannot be expected that every £1 voted by Parliament will be expended before the end of the financial year. The existence of the unexpended balance to which he has referred, is due to the fact that the works could not be carried out before the votes lapsed.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I notice that it is proposed to vote £950 for the repairs and maintenance of Parliament House, and £1,518 for sanitation and water supply, the appropriation last year being £2,297, and the expenditure £1,247. I wish to know whether the amount set down for this year will cover the cost of the work recently carried out in these buildings, or whether further votes will benecessary?

Mr MAHON:
Minister of Home Affairs · Coolgardie · ALP

– The cost of sewering these buildings has been defrayed by the State of Victoria, but we pay 5 per cent. on the outlay. That, I think, is a reasonable arrangement.

Colonel Foxton. - The charge is an annual one.

Mr MAHON:

– Yes. We shall continue to pay it so long as we occupy these premises.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 28 (Governor-General’ s Establishment), £9,227.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

.- In this division provision is made for the upkeep of Sydney Government House. I do not rise to object to the Governor-General having a residence in the capital of New South Wales, or to the amount set down for its maintenance; I wish to call attention to what, to my mind, is a seriousomission, namely, that nothing is set downfor a summer residence in Hobart.

Colonel Foxton.- Or elsewhere.

Mr ATKINSON:

-If we paid the attention to the comfort of the GovernorGeneral, which, I think, we might, Hobart would naturally be chosen as the site for a summer residence for him. The Governors of the States have each a town and a country residence, the Governor of Victoria spending the hot weather at Mount Macedon. When the GovernorGeneralwishes to get away from the heatof Melbourne, he ought to go, not to Sydney, but to a place where the climate is cool - Katoomba, for example, or somewhere in Tasmania. As I understand that Supplementary Estimates are being introduced, I ask the Minister to take into consideration the suggestion that adequate provision should be made for a summer residence for the Governor-General in Tasmania.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- I wishto know from the Minister of HomeAffairs, how many days a year, during the last three years, the Governor-General has occupied Sydney Government House, and how many days he has occupied Melbourne Government House.

Sir William Lyne:

– The time spent in. each has been about the same.

Mr JOHNSON:

– The honorable member, I am sure, is mistaken. There is a feeling in Sydney that the Governor-General spends too little time in the State Capital. It is proposed to vote £2,585 for the upkeep of a Government House in Sydney, and, in addition, £1,053 for non-recurring works, and it is a pity that there should be such a large expenditure of this kind, if the residents of the northern capital are not to have the benefit of the Vice-Regal visits for longer periods than in the past. We all recognise that there are certain social and business advantages in connexion with the residence of the Governor-General in a city; and it is felt that the claims of Sydney from the natural beauty of its surroundings, its status as the mother city, and the chief commercial centre of Australia, have not been recognised as they should have been. A little hint might be conveyed that, if it suits the convenience of His Excellency, the people of Sydney would take it not unkindly if he could make his occasional visits a little more prolonged than those of his popular predecessor.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The GovernorGeneral cannot go to Sydney while the Federal Parliament is sitting.

Mr JOHNSON:

– But there are five or six months in the year when Parliament is not sitting.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable member need not discuss the matter further. I undertake to convey the suggestion to His Excellency.

Dr LIDDELL:
Hunter

– I should like to call attention to what some honorable members may regard as a_ trivial point, but one which I think is rather serious. Government House in Melbourne is really a magnificent one ; and the chief virtue of the building is that the public entertaining rooms are remarkably large, and eminently suited for their purpose. In Sydney Government House the “entertaining rooms can be described in terms the very reverse, and the private apartments have to be invaded on the occasion of any large entertainment. Some people may not approve of such functions, but we know that it is necessary, commercially and otherwise, to extend hospitality to foreign visitors and others occasionally. The Government ought to consider the desirability of providing additional room, because, as I have said, the accommodation at the present time is altogether inadequate. At the time of the visit of the American Fleet it was proposed that there should be additions of a permanent character, but that Idea, for some reason, was vetoed, and a marquee erected.

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [3.45].- I do not know that it was advisable to raise this, question of the Vice-Regal residence in Sydney. There are other State capitals in Australia besides Sydney and Melbourne.

Sir William Lyne:

– But they are not so Important as Sydney.

Colonel FOXTON. - That I admit; but we must remember that Sydnev is not the Federal Capital. I do think it savours somewhat of - well, I would rather not give it a name - to complain. that the GovernorGeneral does not spend sufficient time there. It is only natural that the people of the other capitals should desire to have visits from His Excellency, though I do not say that such visits are expected as they appear to be in Sydney.

Mr Johnson:

– I only say that the Sydney people would be glad to see the GovernorGeneral a little more frequently.

Colonel FOXTON. - But considerable provision is made for His Excellency’s residence there, whereas it would be very much more to the purpose if a summer residence were provided for him elsewhere.

Dr Liddell:

– We could not have a summer residence in Brisbane.

Colonel FOXTON. - No, but there might be a winter residence there. H, as is said, the climate of Melbourne is not considered sufficiently cool at certain periods of the year, and a summer residence is deemed necessary for the State Governor, I think some such accommodation should also be provided for the Governor-General. I may say that’ I sometimes go to Brisbane in the summer, in order that I may get cool. I repeat that Sydney is not the Capital of Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– It should be.

Colonel FOXTON.- I am quite of that opinion, but that is another subject. At any rate, if the Capital had been in Sydney, I am sure there would have been no Vice-Regal residence in Melbourne.

Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay · ALP

– J shall have the pleasure in conveying to “His Excellency the desire of the people of all the cities of Australia, to see as much- of himself and Lady Dudley as possible during their stay in Australia.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

– I do not think that the undertaking of the Prime Minister disposes of the question. No doubt the people of Sydney desire to see His Excellency, but unless the visits are to be more frequent, I am not in favour of continuing this large expenditure on the maintenance of Government House. The honorable member for Hunter makes a claim for more accommodation at the Vice-Regal residence in Sydnev, but I can testify that there is more accommodation than is required. It was not until recently that it was discovered that a ballroom would be a convenient addition, but it was decided at last that it was a drawingroom, and not a ballroom, that was required, and a drawing-room was built. However, there is the finest ballroom south of the line at Melbourne Government House.

Mr Johnson:

– Do not forget the fine. 0 ballroom at Perth.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Why should wc trouble about providing ballrooms ?

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– There must be certain social functions, although the honorable member himself does decline every invitation. If the Governor-General has no intention of visiting Sydney more frequently, we ought to strike this item out, and use the money in providing a good country residence, say, in the neighbourhood of Hobart.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 29 (Miscellaneous), £74,107.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

-5*]- - I notice that £500 is set down tor expenses in connexion with choosing the site of the Capital of the Commonwealth, and I ask the Government to consider whether, in view of the survey work that will have to be done, the amount is sufficient, or whether the Prime Minister and Treasurer will make arrangements for further expenditure should it prove to be necessary. I notice that there is a large increase in the amount devoted to expenses in connexion with the administration of the Electoral Act, and I should- like to know the reason. Then, again, it is proposed to devote another £1,000 towards the cost of compiling a map of Australia, which appears to be an interminable work. We have not only been called upon to pay considerable sums in the past in this connexion, but we arc asked this year to double the amount as compared with that of last year.

Mr Mahon:

– I am willing to reduce that item by £500.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– In any case, I should like to know when the map is likely to be completed. The work goes on year after year, and I can only suppose that the compilers are waiting for new townships and the Federal Capital. The time occupied and the money spent have been more than sufficient to provide for the most perfect map.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

– I see that £500 is set down for the expenses of making inquiries and preparing plans for additional lighthouses required on the coast of Australia, and that, while £1,500 was appropriated last year, only £58 was spent. I should like to know what is. the nature of the work to be undertaken - what lighthouses it is proposed to erect, and what steps are to be taken toward assuming the Commonwealth control of ocean lights, beacons, and buoys generally. A number of flags, Venetian masts, shields and other decorations- of a similar character were obtained in connexion with the visit of the United States Fleet. It would take a lot of money to replace them. Can the Minister state what has’ become of them, and whether it is proposed to store them for use on future occasions, keeping them up to date and ir» good repair, as a sort of permanent stock, in order that the Commonwealth may not be put to unnecessary expense under this head for any future festivities? I understand that the Sydney City Council have sold their decorations, but I hope the Commonwealth will not follow that bad example. If stored, they would mean a considerable lessening of the expenses during any future outbursts of patriotism or hospitality.

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– - Does the Minister intend to take the necessary steps to afford means of communication with the lighthouses along the coast, particularly those located on islands away from the shore ? We had a recent instance of a serious and unfortunate occurrence at one of them. At some of the lighthouses along the New South Wales coast the keepers have no proper means of communication with the mainland in case of sickness or accident. This unfortunate state of things is due, not to any want of sympathy on the part of those in authority, but to the divided responsibility as between the Home Affairs Department, the Post and Telegraph Department, and the States. We cannot have proper communicationwithout mail or telegraphic or signalling facilities, and I ask the Minister when going into the matter to arrange for periodical visits, or communicationby boat, mail, or telegraphy, with the lighthouses, so that we on the mainland mayknow that the men stationed there are all right, and that they on their part may feel that they are within call of assistance ire cases of emergency. I notice an item of £500 towards the cost of establishing anAgricultural Bureau. I am sure that is not all that the Government consider should be spent in that direction, but that they are fully seized of the importance of doing everything possible to forward the interests of our agricultural industries. -I recognise the splendid work that has already beendone by the Agricultural Departments of the States, but the researches which they are able to make are naturally restricted’. Work of Australian interest is being carried on in New South Wales, but that is being duplicated to a large extent in the other States, and large sums of money are being spent on scientific investigations which could be much better and more cheaply done by a central Commonwealth

– I wish again to remind Ministers of the sad occurrence which recently took place at the Althorps lighthouse, and to emphasize the necessity of at once providing for some means of communication with that place.

No one knows better than the Minister in charge of this Department that a very large number of people pass close to the Althorps every year, and no one can say what might happen should the light not be showing.

Mr Mahon:

– Could not vessels pick up another light there? What about the light at Cape Borda?

Mr POYNTON:

– They would have to past the dangerous part of the coast before they could pick up the other light. I suggest that amongst the inquiries, the expense of which is provided for by this vote, the Minister might take into consideration what it is possible to do to make everything safe at the Althorps. Last year we hurriedly agreed to a vote of £5,000 in aid of an expedition to the Antarctic regions. If we could afford to spend money upon such an expedition we should be able to provide sufficient to secure the protection of at least 100,000 people who pass the Althorps every year. The sooner communication is established with the lighthouse there, whether bv wireless telegraphy or in some other way, the better.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I wish to direct the attention of the Committee to item number 10, “ Gratuity to officers who during the preceding twelve months have offered valuable and practical suggestions leading to the introduction of useful reforms and greater economy and efficiency - £200.” I find that last year Parliament appropriated £200 for this purpose, and the enormous sum of £5 was spent out of that vote. As I understand the leader of the Opposition wishes to obtain some information, I shall return to the matter later.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– As some honorable members are obliged to leave to-night for Sydney, I have risen for the purpose of asking the Minister what he proposes to do about the continuation of the business to-day. If the honorable gentleman would make a statement, it would probably help us very much.

Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I hope that the Committee will rise at the earliest possible moment. We should like, if possible, to pass the Treasurer’s Estimates, and then honorable members might return to their homes to meet here again at 4.30 o’clock on Monday.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think there can be no objection to an arrangement of that kind. So far as I can see, there is nothing particularly debatable in the Treasurer’s Estimates, and on the understanding that that is to be the only business dealt with between this and Monday, no objection will be offered’ from this side.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I would like honorable members to give their serious attention to the item to which I have referred. It is intended to encourage members of the Public Service to devise improved methods to bring about economy and efficiency. No doubt there is room for greater economy. The fact that last year only £5 was spent out of this vote must mean either that our public servants are not very intelligent or that some obstacle is placed in the way of those who would otherwise be prepared to suggest improved methods. We know that in this twentieth century, without the prospect of reward, it is “ mopus “ every time, but here a reward in hard cash is offered, and it should bring about the reforms desired. If in the course of a year reforms that are sufficiently acknowledged by a reward of only £5 can be suggested, the sooner this vote is struck off the Estimates the better. I am, however, personally of opinion that some obstacle must be placed in the way of junior officers who would otherwise be prepared to suggest reforms. There is one other item upon which I should like to have some information. I refer to the vote of£31,500 - expenses in connexion with the reception of the United States Fleet. Perhaps the Minister will say whether that is the total expenditure involved.

Mr Mahon:

– Yes, that is absolutely the total expenditure.

Mr WILKS:

– Then I must say that the entertainment of theAmerican Fleet in the two principal cities of Australia was carried out very economically, and Colonel Miller, and the Committees having charge of the affair, must be complimented upon the result of their efforts. I was prepared to hear that a very much larger sum had been required.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– I hope that the Minister will take the item to which the honorable member for D.alley has referred into serious consideration. It is an important vote, and one which should be followed by good results. Up to the present time, it has not been . very much availed of, and I have been informed that rewards to officers in the lower grades axe to some extent blocked by reason of the fact that the recommendations relating to them have to pass through the hands of their superior officers. If that be so, I hope that steps will be taken to insure that those recommendations shall be forwarded direct, either to the heads of Departments, or to Ministers themselves. I should like the Government to outline their intentions in regard to the matter of the storage of timber for seasoning purposes. Is the work to be undertaken in a systematic way, so that in the near future the Commonwealthwill possess a valuable stock of well-seasoned timber for experimental and other purposes?

Mr MAHON:
Minister of Home Affairs · Coolgardie · ALP

– Regarding the question of the taking over by the Commonwealth of lighthouses, I have already explained the position. It is understood that the late Government intended to take over this service in January of next year. In reference to the storing and seasoning of timber, the broad principle followed is -

Tostore for Commonwealth purposes various valuable rare or otherwise important Australian timbers so that in time to come theremay not only be a supply of such timbers for Commonwealth . use, but that the supply may be well seasoned. The more definite purpose should be determined, and it is thought that (he project cannot with advantage embrace ordinary timber for building construction for the Commonwealth, but should be to store certain timbers for -

Important buildings of a national character, such as in the Federal Capital or in London or other parts of the world ;

Defence purposes;

Technical appliances of Departments;

Furniture of a high class;

Important buildings in the several capitals of the States.

The Premiers of thevarious States have been communicated with, and they are all aware of what has been done.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Departmentof the Treasury.

Division 30 (The Treasury),£11,793.

Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I may inform honorable members that the Estimates for this Department contain nothing of a debatable character. The increase in the total amount is due to a vote of £3,600 on account of the Tariff Commission, and to votes in connexion with other Royal Commissions. Only one considerable increase of salary not subject to the Public Service Commissioner’s recommendation is proposed - an increase of ,£100 to the Secretary of the Department, Mr. Allen, to which, I am sure, no honorable member will object.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I move -

That the item, “ Secretary, ,£900,” be reduced by £100

Mr Watson:

– Why, . Mr. Allen is the officer who, above all others, is most entitled to an increase.

Sir William Lyne:

– And he was promised this increment by Sir George Turner.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have already indicated the reason underlying my action. I submit the amendment as a protest against the principle which has been adopted in the allocation of these increases.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– ! am sorry that the honorable member for Calare Has seen fit. to again table an amendment in respect of the proposed increase to a departmental head. I voted with him upon two occasions in that connexion as a protest against increasing the higher salaries, but I recognise when I am beaten. I object as much as he does to high officials receiving increments - especially officers who are under political control - whilst the claims of other officials are ignored. A repetition of these amendments may be regarded as an attack on the officials interested. This is not desirable.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I am sure that no honorable member can cavil, at the proposal to grant a salary of £900 a year to Mr. Allen. I think that that officer is worth more. Only this morning, I argued that the matter of recommending increments to our public servants should be in the hands of the Public Service Commissioner. In reply, it was contended that if such a position obtained, that officer might not be disposed to treat the permanent heads of Departments too kindly. Here is an illustration of how the existing system works out. The Assistant- ComptrollerGeneral of Customs is receiving £1,000 per annum upon the recommendation of the Public Service Commissioner.

Sir William Lyne:

– It was upon the recommendation of the Minister, too.

Mr WILKS:

– Surely the office of Secretary to the Treasury Department is more important than is that of ‘ the Assistant Comptroller-General of .Customs. I mention this fact as a reply to the argument which was advanced by the honorable member for Swan. I would urge upon the

Prime Minister the necessity for amending-, the Public Service Act in the direction of placing all these officers under the controlof the Public Service Commissioner.

Mr Fisher:

– That matter will certainly receive consideration.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– In view’ of the promise of thePrime Minister, I ask leave to withdraw, my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 31 (Audit Office), £18,070; division 32 (Government Printer),. £17,991; division 33 (GovernorGeneral’sOffice), £2,150; division 33 a (Miscellaneous), £3,610 ; division 34 (UnforeseenExpenditure), £700 ; division 35 (Refunds of Revenue), ,£100,000 ; and division 36- (Advance to the Treasurer), £’200,000,. agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 2758

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until’ Monday next at half-past 4 o’clock p.m.

House adjourned at 4.43 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 4 December 1908, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1908/19081204_reps_3_48/>.

View PDF View XML View in Voyant

House of Representatives 4 December 1908

QUESTION

NEW HEBRIDES: PREFERENTIAL . TARIFF

Mr BOWDEN:NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

QUESTION

SELECT COMMITTEE ON STRIPPER-HARVESTERS AND DRILLS

Mr McDONALD:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

CONDUCT OF BUSINESS

Mr HALL:WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr Mcwilliams:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:ALP

Mr Mcwilliams:

Mr FISHER:

Mr BOWDEN:

Mr FISHER:

Mr FOWLER:PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Page:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Page:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH SERVICES PERFORMED BY STATES

Sir JOHN FORREST:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Sir JOHN FORREST:

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

FISCAL POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT

Mr COON:BATMAN, VICTORIA

Mr MAHON:Minister for Home Affairs · COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr COON:

Mr FISHER:ALP

Mr HENRY WILLIS:ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MAHON:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Mahon:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Mr McDONALD:

Mr FISHER:ALP

Dr CARTY SALMON:LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

Mr HUTCHISON:Minister (without portfolio) · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE : SUPERNUMERARIES

Mr WATKINS:for Dr. Maloney

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

ERROR IN TELEGRAM

Mr BOWDEN:

Mr THOMAS:Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

Mr BOWDEN:Nepean

Mr WEBSTER:Gwydir

Mr Mahon:

Mr WEBSTER:

Mr HENRY WILLIS:Robertson

Dr Carty Salmon:

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

Dr LIDDELL:Hunter

Mr Watson:

Dr LIDDELL:

Mr Mahon:

Dr LIDDELL:

Mr Mahon:

Dr LIDDELL:

Mr THOMAS BROWN:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

House of Representatives
4 December 1908

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr HALL:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr COON:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

Mr MAHON:
Minister for Home Affairs · COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Dr CARTY SALMON:
LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

Mr HUTCHISON:
Minister (without portfolio) · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr WATKINS:
for Dr. Maloney

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr THOMAS:
Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

Dr LIDDELL:
Hunter

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr MAHON:
ALP

Mr COON:
Batman

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Hume

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

Mr COON:
Batman

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Dr CARTY SALMON:
Laanecoorie

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr FISHER:
Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP