House of Representatives
30 April 1908

3rd Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Speaker took. the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 10700

PETITION

Mr. TUDOR presented a petition from the Electrical Trades Union of New South Wales and the Electrical Wiremen’s Union of Victoria, praying the House to retain the duties on electrical appliances already passed.

Petition received.

page 10700

QUESTION

TRANSFER OF STATES DEBTS

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is it a fact, as reported in the newspapers, that the Prime Minister is preparing for presentation to the Premiers’ Conferencea scheme for the taking over of the debts of the States, and that before presenting it he intends to explain it to Parliament?

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– The scheme will be laid before Parliament before presentation to the Conference?

Mr Henry Willis:

– For discussion?

Mr DEAKIN:

– That will be for the House to decide.

page 10700

PAPERS

MINISTERSlaid upon the table the following papers -

The Lone Hand Magasine - Correspondence as to writing and publishing on illustrated’ article dealing with general Australian prospects, and as to purchase of copies, &c, by the Commonwealth Government.

Excise Act 1901 and Excise Tariff 1906- Cancellation of Provisional Regulations made on 27th March, 1907-Statutory Rules 1908, No.

page 10700

QUESTION

SIZE OF GRAIN BAGS

Mr LIVINGSTON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Has the Minister of Trade and Customs read the following resolution carried at the Premiers’ Conference yesterday ? -

  1. That the regulation of the size of coinsacks is primarily a matter of State concern, and joint legislation is desirable. (2) That this Conference agrees to contributeper capita to the cost of any action it may be thought desirable to institute on the part of any State to test the constitutionality of the Commonwealth proclamation.

In view of that resolution, will he consider the advisability of withholding the proclamation until the question is settled?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I do not propose towithdraw the proclamation, and am pleased that the members of the Conference are agreed that there should be a reduction in the size of these bags.

page 10700

QUESTION

NEW HEBRIDES

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Has the Prime Minister read the paragraph in today’s Argus, purporting to be a telegram from Sydney, to. the effect that the British residents in the islands of the New Hebrides are complaining of the way in which their interests are neglected, and that they allege that the interests of the French residents are much better attended to? It is further stated that they propose to hold an indignation meeting, and to ask for some mitigation of the difficulties under which they labour. Does the Prime Minister intend to take steps to bring about a better condition of things?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– I read the telegram, but have no knowledge of its accuracy. The Commonwealth is not responsible for what has occurred in the New Hebrides. We protested against the terms of the dual control, and recently, on hearing that the French Government had appointed a representative, and that the British Government had not made a similar appointment, cabied tothe Colonial Office, pointing out that British settlers were under disability by reason of the activity of the French official and the absence of a British representative.. A reply was received about six weeks ago that the British appointment would be made as soon as possible. I am not aware that an appointment has yet been made, although the newspapers have since reported that minor positions have been filled with Frenchmen. As to the truth of that statement I’ have no knowledge, but if, on inquiry, it proves correct, “I shall again communicate with the British Government, which has chosen this form of administration, but, for reasons which may be good, though unknown to us,has not exercised the powers it possesses under the joint agreement.

page 10700

QUESTION

ARTILLERY PRACTICE AT NAIRNE,

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– H as the Minister of Defence seen the very full anddetailed account in the SouthAustralian Register of the artillery practice at the recent encampment at Nairne, in which it is alleged that live shell was used, and that unoffend-

*Sinqleton* [30 April, 1908.] *Rifle Range.* 10701 ing persons in the neighbourhood narrowly escaped annihilation? If so, will he cause a searching inquiry to be made into the cause of this extraordinary occurrence?
Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– On reading the statement referred to, I asted for full particulars, and shall inform the House of the result, as soon as replies are obtained.

page 10701

QUESTION

TELEGRAPH WIRE

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– I wish to know from the Minister representing the Postmaster-General whether the Government imported a large quantity of telegraph wire which was condemned by the responsible officers of his Department, and sold at auction at a great loss to the Commonwealth ?

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– I know nothing of the matter, but shall make inquiries, and inform the honorable member, perhaps tomorrow.

page 10701

QUESTION

CANCELLED MAIL CONTRACT

Mr THOMAS:
BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is it a fact, as reported in the newspapers some time since, that the Government is endeavouring to obtain . £250,000 or £300,000 from Messrs. James Laing and Co., as damages for the non-fulfilment of their contract?

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– If the honorable member will give notice of -the question for to-morrow, I shall then obtain a specific answer.

Mr THOMAS:

– Has the Treasurer received the £25,000 guaranteed by the bond given by Messrs. James Laing and Co. ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– The money has not yet been received.

Mr Fisher:

– The matter will soon be no longer a joke.

Mr.Reid.-What will the Treasurer take for the chance of recovering the money ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Twenty shillings in the £1. The matter is in the hands of the Crown Law officers.

Mr Thomas:

– Then the money has not been paid yet ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Not that I am aware of.

page 10701

QUESTION

SINGLETON RIFLE RANGE

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– I desire to ask the Minister of Defence a question, without notice, relating to the rifle range recently opened at Combo, in the Singleton district. 1 desire to know whether the Minister will take steps to have the range completed, a full number of. targets erected, with a shelter shed, and a telephone exchange, as promised, for the convenience of those who use the range?

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– Every improvement, and all that may be necessary to meet the requirements of those who use the Combo range, will be provided. I will look into the matter at once, and inform the honorable member, a little latex on as to what is being done.

page 10701

QUESTION

BUFFALO HILL. RIFLE RANGE

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I also should like to ask the Minister of Defence a question, without notice, about another rifle ranges - not one that has recently been opened, but one’ that has been closed. I allude to the Buffalo Hill range. Has anything been done in regard to that matter yet?

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– I think I informed the honorable member some time ago that an officer was sent up from head-quarters especially to look into the matter to which he has referred. .

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That was a month ago.

Mr EWING:

– Singularly enough- it shows how great minds run in grooves - it struck me to-day that I had not heard anything more about the matter. Therefore, I sent down to the Secretary of the Department only an hour or so ago, asking him how things stood in reference to the range. I will furnish the honorable member with information in regard to it, I hope, tomorrow.

page 10701

QUESTION

DRAWBACK ON EXCISE SUGAR

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. If no drawback of duty had been paid or was in contemplation of being paid on Excise sugar exported from Australia, will he explain the object of the statement of the ComptrollerGeneral of Customs, in October last, that “ a drawback of duty is allowed” on Excise sugar exported from Australia?
  2. Referring to the Treasurer’s latest admission that the regulation of 12th March last was issued in anticipation of claims being made for drawback of duty on Excise sugar, will he deny that the operation of the Excise duty, bounty to white growers, and drawback of duty as regards 10702 Drawback on [REPRESENTATIVES.] Excise Sugar-.

Excise sugar exported, will be that disclosed by Mr. Mahon’s question on15th inst., namely: -

  1. Referring to thethird paragraph of Mr. Mahon’s question on 24th inst., viz. : -
  2. If drawback is paid on Excise sugar sent abroad for consumption will not the resuits of such payment be-

    1. That the Treasury will have paid away in bounty and in drawback £3 per ton more than it has received from Excise; and
    2. That the Australian people will have been taxed in order to provide cheap beer, jams, jellies, &c, for , foreigners, though . themselves paying the f ull Australian market price for these commodities - does he consider it relevant or proper to evade the specific queries put to him, and offer, as reply, a verbose explanation of the policy of the Commonwealth and the object of the bounty, as to which honorable members are supposed to be fully informed. And will he now give explicit answers to theforegoing questions ?
  3. Does the Treasurer adhere to his answer on 15th inst.that “authority for the payment of bounty on sugar exported from Australia” is provided’ for in the Constitution Act; and, if so, will he name the section of the Act which entitles him to pay, on his own motion and without the sanction of Parliament, a bounty on exported sugar such as the regulation of the Customs Department, dated 12th March, 1908, makes provision for?
  4. Can he see his way to supply an explicit answer to the following questions : -

    1. Whether any other product except sugar (or articles of which sugar is a component part) is the subject of aregulation “ which contemplates the payment of bounty on export without parliamentary ‘authority ?
    2. If he considered that local sugar, when exported, was entitled to be assisted by bounty, why did he not include that commodity in . the measure re- cently before this House which appropriates revenue for the payment of bounties?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows -

  1. The words quoted merely indicate that provision has been made in the manner autho rized by the Statute, to enable drawback to be paid, being part of the general scheme of drawback. As a matter of fact, drawback has been paid under the regulation on sugar exported as such, that is, not in manufactures of canned fruit, &c.
  2. It is not considered that the amount paid as bounty can, -without confusion of thought; be used in a statement of debits and credits, of which the other items are Excise and drawback.

Parliament has, byStatute, directed that bounty be paid if white labour is employed, and certain other conditions’ are observed.

Asno payment is made without proof that the object of the Statute has been attained, it cannot be admitted that such payment results in a loss to the Commonwealth.

  1. See answer to No. 2.
  2. As already stated,there isno such thing as a bounty on exported sugar. The regulation referred to is made under the authority of the Excise Act1901.
  3. No regulation is, or can be, made without statutory authority.

page 10702

QUESTION

CELLULOID

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Is it correct, as reported in the public press, that he is considering the advisableness of prohibiting the importation of certain celluloid articles of manufacture ; and, if so, what are the special articles it is proposed thus to deal with-? 2.What are the reasons for this proposed action ?
Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. Yes. I have had this matter under consideration, and am obtaining samples of all celluloid material used for human wear.
  2. Samples of celluloid eye shades have been brought under- my notice, which are undoubtedly of a highly inflammable and dangerous nature, and most undesirable, in my opinion, for the purpose intended.

page 10702

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH NEWSPAPER

Mr WEBSTER:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether, in view of the inadequate, biased, and unreliable reports and comments by the press in. general onthe doings of Parliament throughout Australia, theGovernment will consider the advisability of establishing a Commonwealth newspaper, and, to that end, grant an inquiry for the purpose of ascertaining -

The possibility of establishing such newspaper, to specially conveyto the public an accurate and fairreport of the doings of the people’s Parliaments ?

The feasibility of publishing all Acts of Parliament passed from time to time, or a readable synopsis of same; also, all Government advertisements and announcementsina more readable form than those at present obtaining in the Government Gazettes?

*Commonwealth Newspaper.* [30 April, 1908.] *Customs Tariff Bill.* 10703 {: type="a" start="c"} 0. The practicability of securing united action between the States , and Commonwealth Governments to utilize said paper as their advertising medium; also to place before the people such matters as the said Parliaments may deem advantageous to the public interest? 1. The desirability of publishing' in such newspaper cablegrams and telegraphic news, being statements of fact relating to events transpiring within the Commonwealth and the Empire and the world in general, which are of. interest and importance to the people of the Commonwealth ? ' {: #subdebate-12-0-s1 .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist -- I am not aware of any alteration in the usual attitude of the press generally towards public affairs. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr Webster: -- It is too usual. {: .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr DEAKIN: -- Although the honorable member has suggested in his questions a number of considerations, he has omitted one or two others, of, perhaps, almost equal importance. ' For instance, he has omitted to mention the place of publication, which, I assume, would be the future Federal Capital. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Dalgety,of course ! {: .speaker-009MD} ##### Mr DEAKIN: -- The prospects of circulation for a newspaper there would be, for some time, limited. The honorable member is of a very inquiring disposition, and I should be glad if under these circumstances, I could gratify him; but it appears to me that at present we have a sufficiency of matters on hand, intq which we are making researches, without touching a very difficult and tenuous subject of this character. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr Webster: -- Something will have to be done. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- I think that special articles occasionally are more remunerative. {: .page-start } page 10703 {:#debate-13} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-13-0} #### CUSTOMS ADMINISTRATION, PORT ADELAIDE {: #subdebate-13-0-s0 .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr GLYNN:
ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA asked the Minister of Trade and Customs; *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is the number of Customs officers, temporary. and permanent, employed at Port Adelaide now greater in proportion to the. business done; and are entries and clearances now less expeditiously made and effected than before the Department came under the control of. the Commonwealth? 1. Are' the checking and approving of entries, or entries and invoices, in Sydney done at one place, namely, the Customs House, and in Port Adelaide at whatever place the particular ship happens to be moored. Which system, the Sydney or the Port Adelaide one, works the more expeditiously, and, tested by complaints and requests for alterations, which seems to give the least satisfaction to importers and agents ? 2. Is there any, and, if any, what substantial objection to the adoption of theSydney system of a central office at Port Adelaide, and to granting the request of the agents and importers of South Australia that entries may be checked and approved of before the arrival of the vessel? {: #subdebate-13-0-s1 .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist -- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. With the addition of three officers about to be appointed, the landing staff will be nearly double that engaged prior to Federation. There is now a more strict supervision and greater vigilance on the part of the officers. This necessitates a more precise observance of the Customs requirements, and it is not considered there is any less expedition in the delivery of goods. 1. The checking of invoices and entries takes place at Sydney at the Customs House and at Port Adelaide at the wharfs. There have been complaints as to the latter method, but it is considered, with the further additions to the staff, any cause for such complaints will be removed. 2. I desire to have further experience of the methods in vogue at present at Fort Adelaide before expressing an opinion as to theexpediency of making any alteration as suggested.. I may add, however, thatfacilities are already, afforded for the examination of entry and invoice before report of vessels. SUPPLY. *(Format).* Question - ThatMr. Speaker do now leave the Chair andthat the House resolve itselfinto Committee of Supply - resolved in the negative. {: .page-start } page 10703 {:#debate-14} ### CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL *In Committee* (Consideration of Senate's requests resumed from 29th April, *vide* page 10699) : Item 170. (a) Manufactures of Metal: *Request.* - Insert thefollowing new paragraph : - . "(aa) Manganese or Chrome Steel Parts, viz.:-Parts made of steel containing Chromium or not less than 7 per cent. of Manganese, which are used in grinding, crushing, or. . pulverizing machinery, and come in contact with the material ground, crushed, or pulverized, free." {: #debate-14-s0 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .-I wish to make a personal explanation with regard to a matter which occurred yesterday. I, regret having to do so, but I believe that a mere statement of the. facts may assist honorable members on similar occasions in the future. Yesterday, since there was to bea division on acertain 10704 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* item, as to which the voting was likely to be very close, the whipping was - somewhat naturally - expected to be keen. Whatoccurred, according to my own knowledge of the circumstances, was briefly this. I state the facts without comment to the Committee. I do not think that comment is necessary. Comparatively early in the debate the honorable member for Barker approached me and said that he had been asked to pair with the honorable member for Herbert. He asked me whether I was agreeable, and what I thought about it. I said that if the. honorable member for Herbert required a pair there were several honorable members whom he could get to pair with. I made inquiries, and found that the honorable member for Herbert and the honorable member for West Sydney were paired for the day- the honorable member for Herbert for the higher duties, and the honorable member for West Sydney for the lower duties. I then saw the Government Whip, and *I* was assured by him that the honorable member for West Sydney was with the Government on that division, and, that, in consequence, it was necessary to break the honorable member for Herbert's pair with him.' I then found that, on the strength of that assurance, yet another honorable member, the honorable member for Barrier, was giving a pair to the honorable member for Herbert for that particular division. I then fortunately - very fortunately - met the honorable member for West Sydney, who unexpectedly had returned to the precincts of the House, and I learnt from him that he was firmly in favour of the lower duties, in spite of what the Government Whip had told me and other honorable members when he was trying to get an additional pair for the honorable member for Herbert. I then took the step which I think was only a reasonable step to take, of informing honorable members who would be expected to vote for lower duties that a certain amount of manoeuvring - I use the word in its mildest sense - was going on with reference to pairs, and that they must be on their guard. I made out what I considered to be a fair list of pairs for those absent from the Chamber, and I went and saw the honorable memberfor Yarra in reference to the matter, as I had understood that he had been intrusted with the whipping for the Government on this question. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- No, the whipping for my own party, which is more important. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- Hear, hear. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- I do not want to go into the subject as to whether the Government is included in the honorable member's party. That is outside the scope of my explanation. But all yesterday, and on the previous day, I had been fixing up the pair lists with the honorable member for Yarra, and I had no knowledge of any alteration of this system. I read out a pair list to the the honorable member, and he had no objection to offer to it. In that pair list the honorable member for Wannon was paired with the honorable member for Echuca. When the division was taken, however, I found that the honorable member for Calare stood out - as I understood, at the instance of the Government Whip - being under the impression that he was paired with the honorable member for Wannon. So that, in two instances yesterday, we found one honorable member paired with two others on a division where the numbers were expected to be close. The Treasurer may express amusement at this kind of thing ; but if these tactics are to be pursued in future, the only safeguard that an honorable man will have in this Chamber will be to sign his own name in the pair-book. {: #debate-14-s1 .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
Honorary Minister · BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- As my name has been imported into this discussion, I may, perhaps, be permitted to make a personal explanation, especially as the honorable member for Wentworth seems to have insinuated that something which I did yesterday was improper or unfair. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- I say that it was improper and unfair. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- I think that I shall be able to convince the Committee that the honorable member for Wentworth is a very capable judge of what is unfair and improper.Difficulties in regard to pairs arise only inconnexion with the Tariff, and they are due to the fact that many honorable members' often decide to vote in a way that is unexpected. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- That was the position in regard to the honorable member for West Sydney. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- By way of illustration, I might explain that quite a number of honorable members of the Opposition, who generally vote for low duties, will sometimes vote for a fairly high duty, on the ground that it is a revenue impost, and as such is of special importance to Tasmania orQueensland. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- What has that to do with the pairing? {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- It has everything to dc* with it. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- /The whips should proceed on direct authority. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- I did not interrupt the honorable member for Wentworth, and I trust that the leader of the Opposition will not interrupt me.- As an instance of what sometimes occurs, it was suggested the day before yesterday that the honorable member for Denison should be paired in opposition to the way in which every other' representative of Tasmania was voting. I knew that it would be wrong to so pair him. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- When (that was pointed out to .me I was the first to say that he ought not to .be so paired. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- And when the matter to which the honorable member has referred was pointed out to me I was the first to agree that what the honorable member proposed should be done. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- When. the honorable member for West Sydney came back to the House. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- No; before. Again, honorable members in the Opposition -corner . almost invariably vote with the Government in support of protective duties. As to the particular incident to which reference has been made, I was informed during the course of the. evening that the chances were that the honorable member for West Sydney would vote with us on the' item then under discussion. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- The honorable member for Bourke told me that the honorable member for West Sydney would vote with the Government. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- I was informed that the honorable member would vote with us, and, as a matter of fact, he has voted with us in support of what the honorable member for Wentworth might consider fairly high duties. When I apprised the honorable member for Wentworth of my information, he assured me that it was incorrect. I immediately consulted with the honorable member for Newcastle, and, learning from him that the honorable member for West Sydney had determined to vote for the low duties proposed in connexion with the item in question, I said at once that the pair must stand. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- That was after- the honorable member for West Sydney had returned. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- It was before ' his ' return. In addition to that, I had told the honorable member for Calare, whose name has also been- mentioned, that I- would not ask him for a pair for the .honorable member for West Sydney if some other pair could be obtained, and that in any case, I should not ask him if the honorable member for West Sydney were voting as he proposed to do. When, at the instance of the -Minister of Trade and Customs, I asked the honorable member for Calare for a pair for the honorable member for Wannon, he said, " No, I shall not give you a pair, because your party has refused to give **Mr. Fowler** - the honorable member for Perth - a pair. If you will give **Mr. Fowler** a pair, then I shall be pleased to pair with the honorable member for Wannon." I replied that I had not refused any one a pair, and the honorable member said that, in those circumstances, he would give me the pair for which I asked. I immediately agreed that the honorable member for Perth should have a pair, and one has been found for him. Every pair for which I was asked in connexion with the division in question was given. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Were there any double pairs? {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- There was no double pairing. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- How many were unpaired ? {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- There were- seven. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Would the honorable member pair them up? {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- Two of these were members of the Opposition, and had the honorable member for Wentworth asked me for pairs for them, he would have got them. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- That would have been something very new. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- As on Friday? {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- The honorable member for Wentworth would have been given pairs, as he has "been whenever he' has asked for them. No pair has ever been refused by me to the' Opposition. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Rubbish ! {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- Does the honorable member suggest that I am not telling the truth? {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- I say that the honorable member's statement is not accurate. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- I challenge the honorable member to prove that a member . of the Opposition has ever been refused a pair when I have been asked to give him 10706 *Customs;* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff.Bill.* one. What I have challenged is the right of the honorable member to arrange pairs for honorable members who are not members of the Opposition, arid who usually vote with us. If the two members of the Opposition who were unpaired last night had sought pairs, they would have obtained them. The others must speak for themselves, for the Opposition Whip has no authority to pair them, and I have none. The CH AIRMAN . -I have allowed the Government Whipandthe Opposition Whip to make a personal explanation, and if others whose names have been mentioned desire to do so, I must ask them to confine their remarks strictlyto the points that have been raised. {: #debate-14-s2 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND · ALP; NAT from 1917 -- As my name has been mentioned in connexion with this matterI should like to explain that the honorable member for Wentworth's statement in regard to my pairing with the honorable member for West Sydney is not quite accurate. It is true thatI paired with him,but not for the whole sitting. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Then I at once withdraw the. statement. . I was told that the honorable member had paired with him for the day. {: #debate-14-s3 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND -- The honorable member for West Sydney and I were paired until only 6.30 p.m. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- Then I was the man who was misinformed. {: #debate-14-s4 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP .- Iwish toexplain thatI was in attendanceduringthe whole of thesitting last night) andtook part in the debate to which reference has been made.! During the afternoon I was asked by the honorable memberfor Laahecoorie to pairwith him for a specified time, in-order that he rnight transact some business Outside the House. I agreed to do so, and a division was taken during his absence. Later on the Opposition Whip spoke to meabout a pair for the honorable member forPerth, who is out of the State, and I said that I would endeavour to secure one for him; Subsequently the Government Whip asked me for a pair for the honorable memberfor Wannon, who, like the honorable member for Perth, is a member of my party, 'and I informed him that if he could find a pair for the honorable member for Perth, I would give him a pair for the other member of. my party, although Icertainly was not anxious to pair. {: #debate-14-s5 .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR:
Yarra -- As my name has been mentioned I should like to say that I have acted as Whip for the Labour Party since the inception of the Parliament, and that I have never had. a complaint from any member of 'my party as to the way in which they have been paired. I have always done my best to agree with the Government Whip and the Opposition Whip, and have had no trouble with any one. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- I certainly have had no trouble with the. honorable member. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr TUDOR: -- I think that I have been too easy. Motion (by. **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment be made. {: #debate-14-s6 .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX:
Kooyong -- Does the Treasurer regard the Senate's requested amendment inserting paragraph aa, making manganese of chrome steel parts free of duty, as a substitution for the word's " side plates and balls forball mills,'' which the Senatesuggests, in request No. 88, should be left out of paragraph e of item 176. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Yes. There was an understanding arrived at in connexion with the matter in the Senate. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- I thought that must be, the intention, and Iam gladto have the honorable member's assurance that it is. WhenImovedthe addition of the words "side plates andballs for ball mills, in paragraph eof item 176, I did so because I feltchat they covered machinery which is not effectively made in Australia: Some exceptiqni wastaken to my (proposal at the time, and I subsequently made it my business to inquire fromlarge mining companies using this machinery, suchas the BrokenHill, Mount Lyell, Kalgoorlie, and Mount Morgan and Cobar companies, whether I was correct in saying that this machinery could not be made here.I wish to have it placed on record that I have received confirmation ofmy statement from all these companies, and approval of the proposal, which the Committee was good enough to accept on my motion. The suggestion made by the Senate to insert the proposed new paragraph aa under item 170 as a substitution 'for the words towhich I have referred, which were included in item 176, is anexcellent one. Itwill permit ofan inferior class of ball mills required for other purposes being manufactured here, and will not in any way *Customs* [30 April, 1908.] *Tariff Bill.* 10707 interfere with the local trade. As I have given some attention to the subject, honorable members will, perhaps, permit me to assure them that they may safely make the requested amendment: Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Item 170. - {: type="a" start="b"} 0. Articles made entirely of aluminium, for household use - >On and after 29th Novemher, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. > > *Request.* - Leave outthe word "entirely" ; make the item (General Tariff) free. {: #debate-14-s7 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- In this case, I propose that the Committee should agree to the requested amendment in the wording of the item, but should not agree to the amendment of the duty under the general Tariff. I there fore move - >That the requested amendment, leaving out the word " entirely," be. made. {: #debate-14-s8 .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID:
East Sydney .- I do not propose to make a long speech on this subject, but I point out that articles made of aluminium are not made hereat all. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Yes, they are. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID: -- Then why should a duty of only 5 per.cent. be imposed upon them? {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- It was the best he could get. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William lyne: -The honorable gentleman helped to make the duty 5 per cent. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID: -- No, I had. nothing to do with it. It is extraordinary, if these articles are made here, that they should be dutiable only at 5 per cent. {: #debate-14-s9 .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 .- I find that request No. 83, " deletion of ' entirely ' and ' free ' " is one of the requests on the Ministers' ' list which is noted as accepted. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I have a mark against it on my list. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- I noted it as accepted on the honorable gentleman's reading of the list, and it is included in the printed list of requests to be accepted. I am aware that the Minister said that he was not to be absolutely bound by the list as he read it, and that there were some few requests' which required further consideration. Last night the honorable gentleman promised to inform the Committee of any other requests in connexion with which he intended to depart from his original announcement. I. ask him now to fulfil that promise. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- On my original list I have a query against the whole of the requests in connexion with item 170. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- I do not say that the honorable gentleman's reservation would not cover what he now proposes to do. Apart from that, I ask him to say now whether there are any other items in connexion with which he proposes to make a change in the original announcement he made, since honorable membersrequire to know beforehand just what the Government propose to do in considering each request. {: #debate-14-s10 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- I did promise last night to look through the list and see whether there were any other requests to be queried, in addition to those to which I. have previously referred, and which I had queried at. the time I made my first statement in connexion with the matter. I. . find that I had queried the request now under consideration, arid all three requests in connexion with item 170. In addition to the requests on the item now under consideration I make a special reservation with respect to the. requests upon items 202, 219,.and 222. I propose to agreeI with part of these requests, but to disagree as. regards the duty with the one nowunder discussion. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Requested amendment, making the item free, not made. Item170 *Request.* - Insert new paragraph. " (c). Articles to be used as Kitchen Utensils made of Cast Iron, tinned or plain, Free." Motion (by . **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment be made. {: #debate-14-s11 .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby .- Cannot these articles for kitchen use be made in Australia? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The articles under the item are of cast iron. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr BATCHELOR: -- There should not bemuchdifficultyinmakingcast-iron articles here. {: #debate-14-s12 .speaker-KXO} ##### Mr PAGE:
Maranoa .- Does this item include three-legged glue pots ? I am very anxious on this point, because, during the debateon the last Tariff, it was stated that the manufacture of these articles was an industry that could becarried onin Victoria, andI should like to see them included. 10708 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* {: #debate-14-s13 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- Personally, I would rather that the goods under this item were subject to duties of 30 and 25 per cent., under manufactures of metal n.e.i., but they were made free in the Senate, with the consent of the leader of the Government there, who expressed the opinionto me that he thought it would be wise for us to agree to the request. Under the peculiar circumstances, I have submitted the motion. {: #debate-14-s14 .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh -- I should like to know whether this item includes enamelled saucepans and similar goods, because, if so, their manufacture is extensively carried on by Messrs. Simpson, in Adelaide, who employ, not scores, but hundreds of workmen. I do not think that the Minister will find any larger industries of the kind in any part of the Commonwealth ; and I am astonished that it should be proposed to accept this request. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- The honorable member who represents Collingwood is silent ! {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- They do not make everything in Collingwood; and if we give consideration to the small manufacturers of Collingwood, we ought to pay some regard to the large manufacturers of Adelaide and other places. I think that the Minister cannot be seized of the facts. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I certainly was not aware of what the honorable member has mentioned just now. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- This industry is capable of almost unlimited expansion ; and Messrs. Simpson have as good a plant as can be found outside Europe. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- There is only one firm carrying on this industry in Adelaide. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- Nevertheless, it is one of the biggest industries in the , Commonwealth, and, if it can be carried on in Adelaide, it can be carried on anywhere. I must say that some of the hands in this industry are not paid the wages they ought to be paid ; but that is a matter to be dealt with later. I ask the Minister to give some further consideration to the matter, because I am quite sure he has no desire to injure any large industry. {: #debate-14-s15 .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby .- Under the circumstances, I suggest that it would be better to postpone the further consideration of 'this item until, say, Tuesday next, because, if the statements made by the honorable member for Hindmarsh are correct, the Government have evidently agreed to this request under a misapprehension. My own opinion is that the honor able member's statements are quite correct ; and I understand that a good many of the articles manufactured by this firm will come under this item. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- Does the word " tinned " include enamelled ware? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- No, it does not. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr BATCHELOR: -- I do not think it does; although the basis of enamelled ware is cast iron. It will be observed, however, that the articles' under this item are " tinned or plain." {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- But not enamelled. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr BATCHELOR: -- It will be admitted that if this firm make cast iron as the basis for enamelled ware, they can do the same for tinned ware. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- If this firm only do the enamelling, it might be to their advantage to have the cast-iron articles admitted free. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr BATCHELOR: -- I do not think it is at all likely that this firm does only the enamelling. The freight on cast-iron goods will be just as heavy as on enamelled goods; and the chances are that the firm do their own casting, though, of course, I cannot speak definitely. I do not blame the Government for not going behind the agreement made in the Senate, but that agreement does not absolve honorable members, who have a duty to perform. If these goods are being made here, arid we are instituting a protective Tariff, the industry ought to be protected. {: #debate-14-s16 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- The impression on the part of those who arranged to make this item free was that cast-iron articles were not made here; and this item applies only to such articles. The whole question is whether the cast-iron utensils described here can be made in Australia. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr Batchelor: -- They certainly can. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I know they can, but I do not know whether they are actually made here or not. There seems to have been some misunderstanding. My colleague who had to deal with the matter is in Sydney, and, under the circumstances, I will agree to postpone the consideration of the request until next week. {: #debate-14-s17 .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson -- I am sorry to hear the Treasurer say that he will postpone the matter. Simpsons are a well-known firm who manufacture in tin. I have known the firm for thirty odd years. They have nothing to do with castings and have no foundry in connexion with their works. *Customs* [30 April, 1908.] *Tariff Bill.* 10709 {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr Hutchison: -- They have; they make all kinds of stoves. {: #debate-14-s18 .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr HENRY WILLIS: -- Their establishment is in Adelaide, and recently they have shifted to Pirie-street. They are doing an enormous trade in tinware. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr Batchelor: -- They make stoves of cast-iron. {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr HENRY WILLIS: -- They do not make pots and pans of cast-iron. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr Batchelor: -- The honorable member said that they had no foundry in connexion with their works. He does not know what he is talking about. {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr HENRY WILLIS: -- Simpsons are not founders. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- How do they make their stoves, then? {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr HENRY WILLIS: -- Firms can give orders and get their casting work done by contract. Adelaide is a small place, and this firm put out their castings. People who deal in cast-iron articles do not always have a foundry of their own. The Minister should abide by his first decision. {: #debate-14-s19 .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh -- The honorable member for Robertson would lead the Committee to believe that Simpson and Sons, who are known outside Adelaide principally as tinware merchants, do practically nothing else, but they do an enormous business in iron railings, gates, and stoves of all sizes. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Do they cast them ? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- Those articles are all cast. Even if the firm themselves have not a foundry, according to the honorable member for Robertson, they give the work out, so that it is done in the Commonwealth all the same.That shows that foundries exist in Australia, and would be injured by the adoption of the request. I am pleased that the Treasurer has agreed to postpone the request until we get full information. {: #debate-14-s20 .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter -- I hope the Treasurer will reconsider his decision to postpone the request. I am surprised that the argument in favour of increasing the duty on these articles, which are used chiefly by the poorer classes of the community, should come from the Labour corner. They are used by the very men who should be assisted by the members of that party, such as prospectors and others who go out on the land. Many honorable members have seen these articles, both tinned and untinned, in use in various camps throughout Australia. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Let us get along-; the Minister has agreed to postpone the request. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- It is all very well for the honorable member for Swan to cry, "Get along" in that bullocking fashion; but why should we do so when it. is proposed to lay burdens upon the backs of people who can ill bear them'? I do not want the request to be postponed. The Minister came here to-day laden with information, and prepared to allow Che requested amendment to be made, but because some factory is supposed to exist in the wilds of South Australia - we have no evidence that it does exist - he immediately agrees to postpone the request in order to obtain further information. The Minister is either prepared, or not prepared, to deal with the Tariff. If he does not know his own business, it is the duty of the Committee to teach him. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Request postponed. Item 173. Type, printers', including Spaces and Quads; Lino. and other Slugs; and Quotations, ad val., 25 per cent. ; and on and after. 29th November, 1907, 20 per cent. *Request.* - Insert the words " Metal Furniture " after the word "Slugs." {: #debate-14-s21 .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera .- Will the Minister explain the object of the requested amendment, and his reasons for agreeing to it? {: #debate-14-s22 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- This amendment was moved by the representative of the Government in the Senate. " Metal- Furniture " is much the same thing as " quotations," the only difference being in the size. The Senate thought that they should both be in the same category. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Requested amendment, in item 175, paragraph a (Screws with Nuts), inserting the words "or for use with nuts," made. And on and after 29th November, 1907 - Item 175. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. Screws for Wood, per cwt. (General Tariff), 5s. 6d. ; (United Kingdom), 5s. *Request.* - Make the item free. {: #debate-14-s23 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- I move - >That the requested amendment be made. Honorable members will recollect that a mistake was made when the matter was previously considered in this Chamber. It is in much the same position as one or two matters to which I referred last night. 10710 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill..* The departmental regulations allowed the articles to come in free because it was proved to be quite a mistake to impose the duty. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Requested amendment in item 175, paragiaph c, making " Screws, n.e.i., &c.," free, not made. And on and after 29th November, 1907 - Item 176. - (d)Rotary and Percussive Rock Drills, ad val. (General Tariff), 20 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 15 per cent. *Request-* - Make the duties (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment be not made. {: #debate-14-s24 .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE:
Darling .- I hope that the Committee will give some consideration to the requirements of the mining industry. In view of the very low price of metals, affecting as it does some very large mines in which the use of imported rock drills is found to be necessary, the imposition of a high duty is a serious matter. I believe that we are all agreed to give as much assistance as possible to every industry. It would be a very material assistance to the mining industry if we acceded to the Senate's request, and it would do no injury to the local industry of rock-drill making. When this item was under consideration previously, there were some apparent contradictions, which can be easily reconciled. On that occasion instances were given of the use of different kinds of drills. It is not a question as to whether the Australian drill is a good one or not. For certain kinds of rock it is suitable, and therefore is used. To say that it has been used successfully in different mines is only evidence of the fact that it is suitable for drilling the strata in particular localities. The users of various drills in other kinds of rock, notably in the Cobar district, declare that the Australian drill does not answer so well as does the imported drill. It is urged that, whilst, the Australian drill may do the work, it costs too much far repairs. In Inthe case of other rocks, however, the cost of repairing the locally-made drill is not so great. It all depends on the nature of the country in which it is used. From the general manager of the Great Cobar Copper mine, who keeps a record of the outlay on drills, I learn that the imported drill costs 12s. 6d. ayear for repairs, and the Australian drill£4. 10s. In other cases it does not cost so much to 'repair the Australian drill, which, I may say, is sold at a lower price than the other. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -£27 as against .£34. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE: -- Without any protection, the Australian drill is able to undersell the imported article. Honorable members can readily understand that a mining company will not give *£7* more for an imported drill unless it has a good reason for not preferring the local drill. Every mining company will take the latter where it is adapted to the rock which it has to work. In such cases thereneed be no fear of the Australian drill not holding its own. It is always a question of the suitability of a drill to a particular formation of country. When rock drills were on the free list, the Australian article was able to hold its own wherever it was found to be suitable to the country. It is not possible to compel any mining company - which naturally wants to procure themost efficient machine it can - to use the Australian article. No matter what duty may be imposed, a company will prefer to use the imported drill, even atan additional cost of *£7.* where the Australian drill is not suitable to the country. The local makers will not sell one drill more if honorable members impose this high duty, but the mining industry will be handicapped to the extent of the duty. Why should they put a serious handicap on mining when they cannot benefit the local manufacturer? It would' bemost foolish on their part to unnecessarily tax the mining industry and retard its development. Owing to the fall in the price of metals, the position of many mining companies is a very serious one, especially where low-grade ores are being dealt with. The Committee is here afforded an opportunity to benefit the mining industry without doing an injury to the local manufacturer of rock drills. Those who succeeded in imposing a high duty previously failed to realize that for certain rocks the Australian drill is not suitable, and that for others it is suitable. There is really room for the employment of all kinds of rock drills. Every mining company can' be safely left to select the drill which is best suited to the particular country which it is working. Undoubtedly there will be a demand for the cheaper article where it will do the work. The fact that it can be obtained at a lower price, arid that parts can be procured readily is a great inducement to any management to use the Australian drill. Owing to the nature of the rock, or the hardness of the country at Cobar and Broken Hill in New South Wales and in Western Australia, the Australian drill does not' stand so well as do two imported drills, one being an American drill and the other an English one. T urge the Committee to agree to the request of the Senate. By doing so, we shall not inflict the slightest injury upon the manufacturers of rock drills in Australia, whilst, at the same time, we shall be granting a very substantial assistance to the mining industry. {: #debate-14-s25 .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle .- I trust that the Committee will assent to the request of the Senate. The reason why rock drills of Australian manufacture are inferior to imported drills is that in the case of the former it is impossible to regulate the stroke. With the Australian drill, the same blow must be struck, irrespective of whether it is working upon . hard -or soft rock. In the case of imported drills, however, the blow can be regulated according to the hardness of the rock in which the drill is working, and thereby the steel parts are saved. This is the reason, why imported drills do better work in rock generally than do the Australian drills. When the latter are employed, the constant jar upon- the parts necessitates frequent repairs. I think we must all recognise that at the present time the mining industry stands in need of all the assistance that we can offer it. The big companies are paying no dividends to their -shareholders, and every penny that is being taken out of the mines is being expended. Consequently this, is not the time when we ought to increase the duties upon the tools of trade of the mining industry. These rock drills are tools of trade, and I hold that the mine managers who are responsible for the economic working of the mines should be at liberty to use- the tools which they regard as the best without being penalized for so doing. Of course there are any number of places in Australia where the locallymade drills can be used, but the mine managers themselves are the best judges as to where the imported article can be employed to most advantage. . I trust that the Committee will agree to the requested reduction of duty. {: #debate-14-s26 .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS:
Dalley .- Both the honorable member for Darling and the honorable member for Fremantle have made but a strong case on behalf 'of the users , of these machines. It isunfor tunate that the products of the engineer should be the working tools either nf the farmer or the miner. As a. result, we find many honorable members representing agricultural and mining constituencies combining forces to defeat the -duty proposed upon these articles. Whilst the honorable member for Darling was speaking, I asked him what was the average price of rock drills, and his reply was *"£34"* Now, I contend that the poor man does not Pa>' ;£34 f°r a t0°l °f trade, and where companies are concerned, an extra. 5 per Cent., 10 per cent., or even 20 per cent, will not prevent them from obtaining the imported article if they desire it. The honorable member for 'Fremantle has said that the mine managers themselves are the best judges as to the class of rock drill which should be employed. I admit that. But I would point out . that mining managers would not purchase the imported article if they would not be more than recouped by so doing.' Personally, I fail to see why the engineering industry should be neglected. I notice that . a duty of only 5 per cent, is proposed upon coalcutting machines--- {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Coal-cutting machines are not made in), the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -- But the Committee have frequently turned a deaf ear to that argument when it has been. urged in respect df other items.. In the present instance the engineering industry is at stake, and I am glad that the Treasurer has declined to accede to the request of the Senate. I shall vote for the retention of the duty" of 20 per cent. {: #debate-14-s27 .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava .- When this question was previously before the Committee I drew attention to certain Australian rock drills which were being used -in connexion with the Long Tunnel mine. Upon looking up the report Of the A section of the Tariff Commission, I find it stated - >Many types of rock drills are in use in Australia. A Victorian engineer (Taylor Horsfield, of Bendigo) and a South Australian mining manager (Captain Hancock, of Moonta) had designed rock drills, which had considerable improvements on those imported. It was said, however, that under present conditions there was small chance of petting Australian designed and made drills into general use. The better such drills were the greater the probability of their being copied by American makers, and sent to Australia free (if percussive). The method of American manufacturers was thus described : When they found a better drill than their own, their agent secured 10712 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* samples, sent them to America to be copied ; they were then sent to Australia, and sold at any price, until the local manufacturers were knocked out. - (Q. 46487, 46643.) Percussion rock drills, now duty free, were made locally, butcompetition with the importer was impossible. A duty of 25 per cent. would enable the local men to capture the market, and would greatly increase employment. - (Q. 48031.) {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- But imported drills are selling at a higher price than are the locally-made machines. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr WYNNE: -- If Australian drills were " knocked out " of the market, the price of the imported article would then be increased as it was in the case of the harvester. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SpenCE: -- But the imported drills are covered by entirely different patents. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr WYNNE: -- I do not think that im- ported drills are covered by any patents. I fancy that the patents have expired. It is an extraordinary thing that Australian workmen. - although they profess themselves in favour of protection - insist upon using imported articles whenever the opportunity presents itself. Quite recently I had a painter working for me, for whom. I bought Australian-made brushes. He declined to use them, and insisted upon being supplied with English brushes. Similarly, I was told by a saddler some time ago that no good leather was made in Australia. Yet, as a matter of fact, we export tons of leather to England and other parts of the world. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- If the honorable member were working up a law case, would he limit himself to Australian law books ? {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr WYNNE: -- An Australian case has more weight than an English case with the Judges. There is a certain amount of prejudice in the minds of many persons against the manufactures of their own country. This obtains everywhere; but perhaps it is more accentuated in Australia than in other places. Whilst a duty of 20 per cent. may be too high, in view of the depressed condition of the mining industry at present, due to the low price of metals, the Government might, perhaps, agree to a compromise. I suggest~a duty of 15 per cent. That will give a certain amount of protection. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- We ought not to impose a revenue duty on this item. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr WYNNE: -- I do not wish to do so; but the manufacturers of South Australia and Bendigo ought to be protected. **Mr. HENRY** WILLIS (Robertson; siderable discussion when the item was first under review. The evidence of the Tariff Commission was largely quoted, and it was shown that imported drills cannot be made in Australia, because of the patents by which they are covered. Even the honorable member for Bendigo has admitted that the Australian drills sell at a lower price than the imported drills. In view of these facts, the contention thata high duty will give employment to our engineers falls to the ground; the only effect. of a high duty will be to penalize mining. I hope, therefore, that the honorable member for Dalley will reconsider his determination in this matter, and allow these drills to be imported subject to a duty of 5 per cent. I think that the honorable member for Batman admitted that they cannot be made here because of the patents which cover them. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr Coon: -- There are no patents. {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr HENRY WILLIS: -- The evidence which was read show that the drills are completely protected by patents. I suppose they cost more than the locally-made drills, because they do work which cannot be done by these drills. So much capital has been invested in mining that the imported drills, if necessary, will be bought whatever they cost. Therefore, if the intention is to increase the revenue, a high duty will have that effect; but it will be useless so far as providing work for our engineers is concerned, because these drills cannot be made here. The constituents of the honorable member for D alley will not benefit by a duty of 20 per cent. {: #debate-14-s28 .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie -- I hope that the Committee will not agree to the request. The honorable member for Darling, in his desire to assist the mining industry, is likely to damage an ancillary industry. He stated that the Australianmade drill costs a great deal for repairs and renewals in comparison with the imported drill. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- If used in certain kinds of rock. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I am glad to hear that qualification.; but for ordinary Australian conditions the Australian-made drill has held its own in all kinds of ground. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- That has not been so at Cobar and in Western Australia. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- When the matter was last discussed, the honorable member for Balaclava stated that recently, when the Long Tunnel mine was sinking 800 feet, the men who did the work were at liberty to choose their own drill, arid commenced with the Taylor-Horsfield drill. Subsequently they tried. the Ingersoll drill, and finally reverted to the Australian drill, because they found that it did better work than was "done by the American drill, and at a lower cost. The drills were being used, not in " cheesy " country, but in granitic rock - some of the hardest rock that is to be encountered in deep sinking. The Australian drill bored 160 feet per month. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- Then the rock was not hard. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -- It would be impossible to bore 160 feet a month through very hard rock, as the honorable member would be aware if he knew anything about mining. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I have spent more in mining than the honorable . member has, and therefore have bought some experience, and I was born, bred, and have lived in a mining district, and, have always been interested in mining. These men were working under high pressure, and were receiving a bonus for every foat over 100 feet bored per month-. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- Any practical miner would say that the country was soft. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I have never heard granitic rock spoken of as soft country. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -- One. hundred and sixty feet a month would be equivalent to 2,000 feet a year. One never hears of such a thing. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Fortunately, I have not been connected with mines which have had to sink 2,000 feet a year. The case to which I have referred is a recent one, and the free-trade Melbourne newspaper gave a long account of the successful working of the Australian -drill. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- In Cobar one could not sink 160 feet a month with it. The Australian drill is suitable for boring through certain rocks, but not for boring through other rocks. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Is the Australian drill to. be -condemned because in isolated cases it may not have done good work? We have been told over and over again that it sells at a lower price than the imported drill, and I can give a long list of mines in which, it is used. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- It is not used at Cobar. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Cobar is only one place. I ask the honorable member not to fix his gaze on one particular spot. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- The honorable member "is fixing his gaze on one mine. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I can name a dozen districts in which Australian drills have been used. Captain Hancock, of Moonta, speaks well of these drills. They are made, not only in Victoria, butt also in Queensland and South Australia. The Victorian maker, has his factory, not in my district, but in Bendigo. He was originally an apprentice, subsequently a journeyman, and is now a master, employing a very large number of men, and turning out a very fine drill. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- I have not said anything against the drill. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- The honorable member has not said much to its credit. He would, have us' believe that the proposed dutywould penalize the mining industry, notwithstanding that the Australian drills sell at a lower price than the imported drills, an example of the manner in which; protection reduces prices. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -Thomson. - Miners will buy the Australian drill in preference to the imported drill if it costs less. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- And does equally good work. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- It does most satisfactory work. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- Sometimes, but not always. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- The honorable member would not like me to run down the members of the legal profession because some of its members do unsatisfactory work. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- Members of the medical profession bury their mistakes. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Among those who- have found the Australian drill satisfactory are **Mr. John** Jewell, mine manager of the Carlisle North G.G; and Passby United; **Mr. James** Northcott, manager for **Mr. G.** Lansell ; **Mr. Thomas** Procter, junior, engineer for the Star of the East Company, Sebastopol; **Mr. Frank** Jolly, mine manager of the South Devonshire Gold Mining Company ; **Mr. Richard** Williams, mining manager of the Johnson"s Reef Gold Mining Company ; **Mr. Charles** Gambetta, mine manager of the Princess Dagmar Company's Works; **Mr. Charles** S. Rowe, mining manager of the New Chum Railway Company ; and **Mr. Francis** Agnew, mining manager of North Johnson's Reef Company. These mines are widely separated and are in different kinds of country. Experience shows the Australian drills. to be cheaper and better than the imported drills, and an advantage to be obtained in using them is that spare parts can be had- and repairs made more expeditiously than in the case of imported drills. The manufacture of drills employs skilled labour, which receives high rates of wages. The patent Tights in connexion with the Ingersoll drill will expire in a few months, and, therefore, the contention that it cannot be made in Australia will in a little time have no force. I also -point out that rock drills are not all made by men with a large amount of capital. They are often made by men working in a very small way, who have settled in mining districts, and who, by industry and ability, have got together a little plant, with which they manufacture rock drills which are' giving every satisfaction. In the town of Maldon, in Victoria, there is a manufacturer, **Mr. Faulkner,** who has made over 200 rock drills the results from which have been eminently satisfactory to those who have vised them. I urge .honorable members to support the Government proposal, considering that the locally-made article is as good as, and often superior to, the imported rock drill,- that it is sold at a lower price, and that its manufacture iri this country affords employment to a large number of people. This is not a matter of geographical protection, but relates to an industry that has branches in every part of Australia. {: #debate-14-s29 .speaker-JSK} ##### Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC .- I am afraid that some honorable members have overlooked the discussion that took place with regard to rock drills on the last occasion when the Tariff was under consideration. The . original . proposal of the Government was that the duties should be 30 and 25 per cent. It was shown in the course of the discussion, as a reference to *Hansard* shows, that a meeting. of the mine owners of Bendigo had. taken place, and. that they gave their verdict absolutely in favour of .the imported article. I do not wish to decry the rock drills that are made in Australia, or to 'minimise, the possibility of their manufacture here. But I cannot act against my judgment, nor can I cast a vote which, in my belief, would be in the direction- of loading the cost of * mining to an extent that would absolutely ruin it. The request of the Senate appears . to me to fit in with . the necessities of to-day. I venture to say that a reduction of the duty to 5 per cent, will do good.' I do not know whether the Treasurer knows' anything about mining. Perhaps he is not so omniscient as are some other statesmen, who appear to think that they made the world; and are themselves angels. I know that the Treasurer understands pastoral in terests, but if he follows mining with any degree of closeness, he must be. aware that there is an absolute disinclination on the part of the public of this country to continue investing their money in mines.) In face of that fact,- it is surely the province of the Legislature to refrain from hampering the industry. I assure honorable members, from my knowledge of mining requirements, that they will do well to vote for the Senate's request. . A point .that should not be lost sight of is that the duty to which we are asked to agree was the result of a compromise. Those who wished to make rock drills free found that they could not do any better than agree to a 5 per cent, duty, and therefore they accepted it. I trust .that the Committee will give consideration. . to the almost ' innumerable difficulties with which the mining interest is faced. No sooner do you get a man down 2 feet below the surface than he ceases to be your. man. Although you pay him he becomes your master. There are a thousand, considerations in connexion with mining that tend to retard the industry, and if we increase its difficulties by taxing its machinery, we shall strengthen the determination of many of the investing public nc: to operate in mining. {: #debate-14-s30 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP , - I. hope that the Committee will- not act on the advice tendered bv the honorable mern. ber for Laanecoorie, but will agree to. the request of the Senate. I consider that the mining industry is entitled to fair consideration at our hands. Mining is one pf the principal industries in the Commonwealth. We cannot ignore its necessities; 1 know of no community that is more cosmopolitan than is the mining community. Those engaged in mining run their undertakings on strictly commercial principles. It is -with, them a' question of making the most of the expenditure incurred. Those at the head of mining concerns are men possessed of a considerable amount of ability and knowledge as to the best methods of carrying on their works. They are not affected by party prejudices. They prefer to use the latest and most uptodate methods. Mining men generally admit that for the softer class of country the drills made in Australia are very suitable. They are used for such country. A considerable amount of Our mining, however, is-not conducted in soft country, but has to contend with rock that is very hard and difficult to handle. It is simply because, the- imported rock drills are found to meet; these special requirements that they are used. The imposition of a duty would not limit the use of imported rock drills ; it would simply add to the cost of the undertakings in connexion with which they are employed. It stands to reason that if those engaged in mining could procure a locallymade machine for *j£"j* less than the price of an imported machine, considerations of hard cash would induce' them to use the Australian rock drill. But it is not suitable for special kinds of work, and therefore they cannot use it. If it were a question of undercutting in prices, as .has been suggested, there might be something in the argument of the honorable member for Laanecoorie. But those who have to- deal in the open market know to their cost that there is none of the undercutting of prices that has been suggested. If mining men could use the locally-made machines in difficult country, I- am satisfied that the lower price alone would induce them to do *so'.* {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- We say that the locallymade rock drill is suitable for all kinds of country. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I would ask the honorable member to look at the ques. tion from the stand-point that I have been suggesting. Here is an industry that is run by cosmopolitan men, many of whom have had experience in all parts of the world. Mining men travel perhaps more than do. men engaged in any other industry. Their ideas are broadened by travel. They run their industries for the purpose of making as much out *of* them as they Can in return for their capital expenditure. Is it likely that men engaged in an industry conducted on these lines would pay increased prices for rock drills simply on account of prejudice against the locallymade machines? ( **Mr. Salmon.** - The. prejudice undoubt- edly exists {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Probably there is a prejudice against Australian productions, but- it exists in a lesser degree in. this industry than in probably any other industry in, the community. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- Does not the "honorable member know that it is the directors of mines who generally .dictate as to what kind of machines ' shall be .used, 'and not the practical men iri the mines? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- There may *he* some directors of the character- the honorable ' member indicates, ' but they are directors who very soon .bring, their mines to grief. The directors who make a success of mining are those who get the best expert advice they can procure, and act upon it. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- It is notorious that in Western. Australia what I have described has been' done over and over again. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I have no knowledge of what mine managers in Western Australia do. I cannot speak on -their behalf. But it seems to me to be most extraordinary to say "that the big mining concerns are run by a few directors who practically have no knowledge of their own requirements, and who disregard the expert opinion of the men whom they engage to carry on their operations. My inquiries lead me to the conclusion that assertions about prejudice do not apply to any material extent to this industry. 'If the locallymade rock drills were suitable for certain classes of country, the principles of commercialism, to say nothing of patriotism, would conduce to their use in the big mines. But' where deep sinking and diffi- cult work has to be undertaken,' it is notorious that locally-made rock drills are not equal to the imported machines. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- The largest and most powerful machine ever made was manufactured in Australia. 1 . . {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The largest machine may not necessarily be the most effective. . {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- But the honorable member was suggesting, that these machines could not be made here. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The contention of mining men is that experience shows that the imported machine is the more effective and suitable for their work, It is for that- reason that they "prefer". it) although they have::to pay for" it more than is charged for the local machine. These men- assert that the imposition of a duty will not compel them to use the inferior machine; it will, simply add to the cost of working their mines, and to that extent will become a burden on the mining industry. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- Is the honorable member quoting the opinion of mine managers or mining directors? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I am. speaking of mining men generally who are familiar with the practical part of- the work. In dealing with- these matters I prefer to be guided by the views of practical as against those of. theoretical men, -My argument is supported by the fact that the imported machines, although dearer than those of local manufacture, are used in mines controlled by practical, levelheaded, close-fisted mem, not because of any prejudice against the local machines, but because the imported ones render more efficient service. The honorable member for Fremantle has pointed out .that one reason why the imported machine is preferred for use in certain areas in Western Australia is that its stroke is regulated, whereas the Australian manufacturers have not regulated the stroke of their machines. We are asked to assume that a community that is endeavouring to obtain the best possible returns for its outlay, has not sufficient common sense to recognise what are the best machines for its purpose, and we are told that we should endeavour by taxation to compel it, against the hard logic of the pocket, to use a locally-made machine. To put forward such a plea is to reduce our proceedings to a farce. The imposition of these high duties will not mean a very material increase in the output of locally-made machines, but it will add to the cost of those who find it absolutely necessary to use the imported machine, and to that extent it will be disadvantageous to the general mining community. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- I mentioned the names of those who favour the Australian machine. Will the honorable member give the names of the practical men of whom he speaks? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- They are readily obtainable from mining people. The imported machines are preferred- for use in all deep mines. Although a protectionist, the honorable member who represents the district in 'which the Great Cobar mine is situated, is championing the proposed reduction of duties solely for the reasons I have indicated. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr Coon: -- Would the honorable member vote for the higher duties if it were proved that the Australian machine is as good as the imported? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- If it is as good as the imported, and is offered for sale at *j£j* less than the price of the imported machine, that in itself should be sufficient to appeal to the mining community. Apparently it is npt, and the honorable member therefore desires to place an increased embargo"" on the imported machine, in order to compel mineowners to use the local production. Men engage in mining, not as a matter of sentiment, but to make money, and they use the imported machines because they find that they are superior. The mining industry has been hard hit during the last few years. Prices of metals have materially decreased, and, in many cases, the margin of profit has been reduced almost to vanishing point. Those having the. control of a large number of mining propositions are seriously considering whether they can continue to carry on operations upon a payable basis. The most effective machinery is necessary to enable them to do so, and yet it is proposed to place increased duties upon machines which experience proves must be used by them, and so to reduce their margin of profit.. The mining industry is one of the big wealth-producing factors of Australia, and cannot derive much benefit from Customs taxation. It gives employment to thousands of men, and, having regard to its importance, it should receive some consideration at the hands of the Committee. I- hope that the requested amendment will be made. {: #debate-14-s31 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan -- I am rather unwilling to prolong this debate, because, when the item was before us some months ago, I gave expression to my views with respect to the taxation of mining machinery. Since then, however, the whole question has been reviewed by another place, and, as we are now invited by it to reduce- the duties imposed upon this item, I think I shall be justified in adding a few words to what I sai.d on the subject on a previous occasion. I do not consider it wise to place special burdens upon the great primary industry of mining, which supports large communities, gives employment to thousands of men, and has an immensely beneficial influence on every other industry in Australia. Mining is an arduous calling. In many cases men have to go into the wilds and overcome numerous . physical difficulties in their efforts to discover the existence of gold and other minerals, and yet, when they have made a discovery, some honorable members would hamper their operations by imposing a heavy burden of taxation upon their tools of trade. Such a policy is, to my mind, unwise. It seems like! killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The policy of the Government in respect of the requests made bv the Senate is summed up by the familiar expression, " Heads, I win ; tails, you lose." They invite the Committee to agree to every requested amendment providing for increased duties, although they must know that in accepting increases by the Senate they are sacrificing the exclusive powers of this House to initiate taxation, and they almost invariably call upon honorable members to reject a request for reduced duties. I should have thought that the arguments advanced in favour of this request would have convinced the Government of its wisdom. The Australian, drill, although offered at a lower price than the imported machine, is not used in cases where the rock is very hard and refractory. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr Coon: -- That is not correct. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST: -- I have not precise personal knowledge of the subject, but it has been stated by the honorable member for Calare, the honorable member for Darling, and others, that that is so. We_ have to remember that this item relates to a tool of trade. Tools of trade used in many other industries are free, and yet we are asked to impose heavy duties on one of the tools of trade of one of the greatest industries which has produced in Australia about £700,000,000 of new wealth. One is inclined in this connexion to think 'of great mining centres like Broken Hill, Ballarat, and Bendigo, where the industry has been carried on for years, and has almost become an ordinary business, but my view is that we are, as yet, only on the fringe of mining development in Australia. Why should we be seeking to impose additional burdens upon those' who are directing their energy and knowledge to an effort to open out new mines, and so to discover fresh sources of wealth in Australia? I shall certainly vote for the requested amendment. It seems to me that the mining industry has scant sympathy from the Government. Ministers are inclined to deal sympathetically with items relating to industries with which they are familiar; but they appear to have but little sympathy with the mining industry, and especially with' the mining industry in Western Australia, where a great deal of hard refractory rock is met with. {: #debate-14-s32 .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON:
Batman .-The right honorable member for Swan "recently visited Bendigo - an important mining district - which has been developed under a protective Tariff. Listening to the speeches made during this debate, one would imagine that by imposing these duties we are taxing the industry. As a matter of fact, so far as these machines are concerned, the industry was taxed prior to their being manufactured in Australia. A mining man had then to pay £60 for a machine which he can purchase to-day for about £30. That is a result of local competition* The United States would levy a duty of 27J per cent, on Australian machines,, and yet representatives of American firms ask us to admit their machines free. Is that fair ? I can quite understand the attitude of the honorable member for Calare. The honorable member is out for free-trade, and is consistent. He would not support a duty even if it could be shown that the local machines were better than the imported article. We have been told by the honorable member for Darling that the local machines will not do the work required to be done. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- In certain country. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- They will do the work in any kind of rock the honorable member likes to select. Let me tell him that the machine which he talks about is worked under a pressure of 80 lbs. to the square inch. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- What has that to do with it? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I will tell the honorable member. The Australian machine is working to-day under a pressure of 115 lbs. to the square inch. Is that enough for the honorable member? What is the position? Honorable members can go to Bendigo, and in the deepest mine in the world they will find that an Australian rock drill is being used. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- Let us go to a division. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member is no doubt very anxious that we should go to a division, but I do not intend to permit an Australian machine to be decried without saying something in' its favour. I have in my hand a photograph of the largest rock drill in the world. It was made in Australia, and weighs 1 ton 6 cwt. We are being asked to permit these machines to be imported duty free. Honorable members who are supporting the request would say to Australian workmen, " You are good, enough to work in the mines at Bendigo and Broken Hill, and good enough to work 3,000 feet or 4,000 feet below ground, but you are not good enough to make the mining machinery we require." {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- We wish only to judge by results, and the question is, " Are the results from the use of the local machines as good as those from the use of the imported machines?" {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The results from the use of the local machines are equal to, and in some cases better than, the results from the 10718 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* importedmachines. That has been proved beyond the shadow of a doubt. MrFoster. - In what mines? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- In a mine at Bendigo, and in another at Western Australia. As a consequence, about 4,000 of the Australian machihes are working to-day in Australia. {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Where? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- There are something like 700 of these machines being worked in the Bendigo. district alone. {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Where are most of the. others used ? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- They are used in different parts of the Commonwealth. 1 understand that in Western Australia, where all the opposition to this duty is coming from, because the importers are practically in a position tosay to the mining managers, " You must use an importedmachine"- {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -- Where is this? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- That is what is happening in Western Australia, and not only there, but in Victoria as well. One of these foreign manufacturing companies has appointed as their agent in Victoria one of the leading mining men in this State. What is he doing to-day ? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Instructing the mining managers to use only the imported machines. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- That is so. Some of the machines used to be repaired here, but this mining man comes along, and will not allow them to be repaired. He says : " Put in one of the imported machines." That is what is taking place in Victoria. We are told that our people cannot make these machines, when, as a matter of fact, we know that they have improved this class of machinery, and have brought about a reduction in the price from£60 to *£30.* The honorable member for Darling said he would quote an authority in connexion with these machines, but whom did he quote? He quoted A. Ernest Thomas and Company, and **Mr. Thomas** is an agent for the very imported machine to which she honorable member referred. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- I did not quote anybody. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- When the Tariff was last before the Committee, the honorable member quoted **Mr. Thomas,** a mining engineer at Western Australia, and that gentleman is an agent for one of the imported machines. Was it fair of the honorable member to ask the Committee to. accept the statement of a man interested in an imported machine? Mr.Frazer. - Whose information is the honorable member quoting? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -I am giving information which I sought for myself. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -- I suppose the honorable member went to some one to get it ? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -I did more than the honorable member for Kalgoorlie has done, or is likely to do. I went below the surface to the deepest level of the . deepest mine in the world, and at 4,400 feet below the surface I saw an Australian rock-boring machine working. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- What difference does that make ? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member for Fremantle knows absolutely nothing about these machines. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- Of course, the honorable member is the only member of the Committee who does . know anything about them. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member is responsible for the statement that the Australian makers of these machines are not able to regulate the stroke. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- And they are not. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- What nonsense ! They are the very people who did regulate the stroke. Let me tell the honorable member what the manufacturers of the imported drills did. When our manufacturers made the local machines, they came along and copied the Australian chuck, and are using it to-day in the imported machines. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- The chuck has nothing to do with the stroke. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- There are 120,000 men employed in mining in Australia. There are some 1 9,000 employed in Western Australia, 42,600 in New South Wales, and 26,000 in Victoria, and we are told that the 19,000 employed in Western Australia are against the Australian machines. As a matter of fact they are not against the Australian machines. The majority of the men working in the mines of Western Australia went to that State from Victoria. They have used the Australian machines, and know the result. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- They must be starving in Victoria. We are producing more gold in Western Australia than is being produced in all the other States in the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Is there any reason why these rock-boring machines should not be made here ? We have made between 4,000 and 5,000 of them. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- Why are they not sold? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- We cannot sell them, because of the dumping of imported machines. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- The imported machine fetches the higher price. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I venture to say that the honorable member cannot tell me what the imported machines are sold- at to-day. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- At from *£32* to *£34.* {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Let me tell the honorable member that they are being- sold at as low as£2910s. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- No. We are buyers. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Yes, of course, the honorable member is a- buyer of the imported article every time. These machines are made all over Australia. I propose to' quote for the information of the honorable member for Darling a testimonial in favour of ont of the Australian machines, received from the Central Cookmans mine at Maldon. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- I said nothing against the Australian machine. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- Nor did I. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member for Darling said that the Australian machine would not do the work required to be done at Cobar. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- I did not say so. I said that they would do the work in certain country, but not in other country. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member said that they would not do the work as effectively as the imported machines. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- In certain country. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- At Cobar. {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- I did mention Cobar. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Let me tell the honorable member what took place at' Cobar. An Australian rock-boring machine was sent to Cobar, and with what result? {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- There are several of them there. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- A special class of machine, a " Taylor-Horsfield,". was sent to Cobar, and was returned without ever having been used; Is that the way to test an Australian machine? {: .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr Spence: -- The honorable member is hopeless. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The manager ofthe mine was interested in an imported . machine, I suppose? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I ask the honorable member for. Darling whether he . thinks it is fair for. people to . condemn an Australian machine, without ever having used it ? Mr.SPENCE.-They have triedthem. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I can inform the honorable member for Fremantle that1¼-inch steel is being used in connexion with the boring of holes in Victoria. Will the honorable member find anything like that in Western Australia in the use of imported machines, or will he say that any of the imported machines are being worked under a pressure of 115 lbs. to the square inch? {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- There is not a receiver here that would stand that pressure. The honorable member probably means about 85 lbs. to the square inch. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- That is like some of the honorable member's other statements. I saw an Australian machine boring with1¼-inch steel at a 4,400-feet level, with a pressure behind it of 115 lbs. to the square inch. If the honorable member doubts my word I shall be pleased to take, him down the mine, and let him see for himself. Would the honorable member be prepared to vote for a duty on these machines if that statement were proved to be correct ? Of course, I know he would not. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- The honorable member is making a lot of fuss about going down, that mine. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I know more of mines than does the honorable member. I have done too much of mining in my time.. I know all about it. I want to give the Committee the benefit of a testimonial by a mining manager concerning anAustralian machine made in a small country! town, the manufacturers of which havemadeover 200 machines. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -Reckless statements. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member need not interject about reckless statements.; he is very fond of interjecting, and let me tell him that if he can do so he will have an opportunity later to contradict the statements I make. I shall be able to tell him something more if he says I am making reckless statements. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -- I have long ago' arrived at the conclusion that there is no- necessity to do anything of the kind. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -I propose, to read the following testimonial of an Australian rock drill from the manager of the Central Cookmans mine at Maldon. His letter isdated 9th April,.1908, and. he writes - Dear **Sir,** In reference to **Mr. Faulkner's** rock drill, I have very much pleasure in giving -my opinion on this drill. . For. hard ground it cannot be beaten.' We have sunk 200 feet of shaft with one drill, and sofar it has not' cost one farthing for repairs ; also drove ' 50 feet with the. same drill and done a fair bit of stoping besides, and we have not had a break of any kind. The other two drills are giving the same satisfaction in the stopes. That is signed " Joseph Cook, mine manager." Another testimonial from the general manager of the Broken Hill Proprietary Block 10 Company, dated 14th April, 1908, says - > **Sir, -** In reply to your letter of the 7th inst., I have pleasure in stating that . your drills are giving complete satisfaction. {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- What is the price of the locally-made drill? {: #debate-14-s33 .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- About the same as that of the imported drill. It is not entirely a matter of price. If one tried to send a drill to the country from which the imported drill comes, he would be charged 27 per cent. duty. Yet we are asked to allow foreign-made drills to come in free. In Western Australia, ,£4,396,000 has been expended on mining machinery, a very large sum ; but the expenditure has been greater than it need have been, because the mine-owners have gone to the Old Country instead of buying Australian-made machinery. Is no consideration to be given to, the men employed in our engineering works, or to those who have expended money in building up our factories and foundries? Over 16,000 men are employed in the engineering trade in Australia, and £1,550,000 has been invested in the industry. Are we to close our fac- tories 'and: foundries in order that foreignmade machinery may flood the market ? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Are we to put up the price of machinery, and, by closing, our mines, throw out of employment thousands of workers? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Let me remind the honorable member that local competition has reduced the price of these drills from £60 to £30. How many of the 120,000 miners in Australia would vote for the taking off of the duty ? Are these drills the tools ot trade of the working miner in the sense that picks and shovels are ? No. If the duty were taken off, only the importers would benefit. A short time ago, when a drill was required for a quarry not far from here, an importer asked £45 for one, but when he heard that an Australian manufacturer had offered to supply a drill, he reduced his price to £32. My answer to the honorable member for Calare is that local competition is bringing about the manufacture, at reasonable prices, of' machines which give every satisfaction. I hold, in mv. hand a piece of stone which was brought up from a depth of 4,440 feet. If the honorable member for Darling can produce harder stone from Cobar or Western Australia, I shall be ready to vote for the taking off of the duty'. He and the honorable member for Kalgoorlie are members of the Labour Party ; but is the proposal for the removal of the duty advanced on behalf of the miners of Western Australia ? {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Certainly. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The 120,000 men employed in mining, who were spoken of yesterday as well paid, earn, on the average, 38s. a week, and there are in Broken Hill miners working for 5s. a day. Do honorable members represent the working miners,, or the wealthy mine-owners ; the men below or the men above; the men with, the moleskins and hobnailed boots, or the men with the long coats and the top hats? {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- What has this to do with rock drills? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I know whom the honorable member represents. But do others who ask us to place rock drills on the free list represent the working classes or the importers ? {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The working classes pay every penny of the duties. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The honorable member knows that it is not so. The men below the surface say, " Give us the Australian rock drill.'-' It is the importers who say " Let drills come in free." {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- The Broken Hill miners, say, " Let us have the best drills iri the world." {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Yesterday a miner from Broken Hill told me that the Australian drill is the best, and that the men there use it whenever they have a chance. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Iti is strange that, more should be paid for the imported than for the locally made article, if the latter is the better. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Why were twenty-six Australian drills bought for the Broken Hill mines in December last, if the imported are better? {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- I am glad to hear of the Australian drills being used. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Then the honorable member should vote for the duty. It is those' who sit in offices and do no work who wish to have the duty removed. They desire that the miners' sons shall follow their fathers, who have to slave for their existence. They say " Let us close up the engineering works, and allow foreign made goods to be imported." Those whom the *Customs* [30 April, 1908.] *Tariff Bill.* 10721 honorable member represents do not wish the duty to be removed. . What has the miner to gain by its removal ? Would he get higher wages? He would not get a penny more. Would his children have better employment ? No. Instead of being able to apprentice his sons to the engineering trade, they would, if the duty were removed, be compelled to follow in his footsteps, and, at forty would be old men. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- Where will the engineering trade be if the mining industry is killed ? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- The number of fatal accidents which occur in connexion with mining, and the injury to health due to working in deep mines, should make the Committee seriously hesitate about doing away with a duty which will open other avenues of employment. {: .speaker-KXP} ##### Mr Palmer: -- Is the honorable member opposed to mining? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- No. I wish to encourage the mining industry. Will the removal of the duty help the miner? {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- In assisting the mining industry it will help the miner. There seems to be a lot of " stone-walling." {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Apparently the right honorable gentleman thinks that he has the numbers, and that further speeches are useless. The removal of the duty would benefit, only the importers. I have shown that it is not a tax on the mining industry, and I hope that the Committee will not be led away by statements like those of the honorable member for Calare, who under any circumstances would vote against the duty. I am surprised that the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, who was elected to represent one section of the community, is now' representing another section. In the interests of the great body of workers I ask the Committee to adhere to its former decision, and vote for the duty. {: #debate-14-s34 .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX:
Kooyong .- The honorable member for Batman has given us a vigorous and lengthy address, in which there is a good deal of sound sense. But I wish to correct his statement that there are at Broken Hill men receiving 5s. a day. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr Coon: -- Under the contract system. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- Not even under the contract system. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- I think that some under the contract system get less. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- I do not think so. No man has a right to be working there for less. In view of the great depreciation existing at present in the price of all metals, and the difficulty of providing new sources of employment or opening up new mining enterprises, the honorable member for Batman must consider that it is not a question merely as to whether these duties will affect the mines or not. We are faced with the very serious question of whether there will be full employment at all in mining. I regret to say that probably, unless there isa change in present conditions, a great many men must lose their employment. There is a disposition in this Chamber to ascribe many of the effects that we see to wrong causes. We are blaming certain duties which the Government are imposing for effects which really arise from our absolute inability to alter the condition now obtaining throughout the world, which means lower prices all round. I fear that the influenceof that condition is going to be serious upon the miners as a whole. It is a grave position with which Australia is at present faced. When this item was last before this Chamber, I voted for a duty of 15 per cent. It is perfectly idle to say that these drills cannot be made in Australia, because I know of my own knowledge that they are being used in some of the mines at Broken Hill, and used successfully. The question as to whether a man uses an Ingersoll drill, a Rand drill, a Sullivan drill, a Holman drill, or the Bendigo drill is mostly a pure matter of prejudice, dictated by the mining manager, or sometimes by the directors. But it would be just as idle to assert that for all purposes the Bendigo drill is equally serviceable and equally useful with the imported article. I feel strongly that there is no legitimate reason why a useful and valuable drill should not be madein Australia in larger numbers than are being used at present. I know of my own knowledge that the Bendigo drill is being successfully used at present in the Long Tunnel mine. The honorable member for Batman read a certificate from a very capable manager, and, if there is anything in the desire to give reasonable protection, it is absurd not to give some assistance to an industry which is not very vigorous, and needs some help. I see no reason, other than the great reduction of prices now affecting the whole world, why I should change the vote which I gave previously. I propose, therefore, to ask the Committee to accept a duty of 15 per cent. in the general Tariff, instead of the 20 per cent. which appears in the schedule, with a duty of 10 per cent., instead of 15 per cent., against the United Kingdom. Will the Minister agree to that, as a large 10722 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* number of honorable members are prepared to vote for it? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I have to be very careful now as to what sort of a bargain I enter into. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- I will not make a bargain with the honorable member, but will move- {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- Not yet. We want to try to get the item freefirst. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- In the event of the requested amendment to make the item free being defeated, I will move for a duty of 15 per cent. I shall vote against 20 per cent., and also against making the item free.' {: #debate-14-s35 .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie .- My name has been mentioned two or three times in connexion with this matter. I shall make no reply to the reckless statements of the honorable member for Batman regarding the people whose interests will be affected by removing the duty. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The honorable member does not accept him as an authority? {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- I accept him as an authority only upon the most reckless statements that have been made in this Chamber since I have been here. I leave it at that. In regard to the merits of the proposal, I cannot for the life of me see why' we should differentiate between the mining and all the other industries 'of Australia. Tools of trade that are necessary to the mechanic in any other industry, and that are not produced in a satisfactory form in Australia are admitted free under this Tariff, but when it comes to a question of the mining industry, a duty of this kind, for which there is absolutely no justification, is imposed. There are at present, speaking from memory, working in Australia 1,500 or 1,600 rock drills, half or nearly half of which are in Western Australia. The fact cannot be disputed that, although the great majority of mining managers in that State, and certainly those of all the principal mines are Australians, and most of them Victorians, none of the Australian drills are working in the principal mines in Western Australia at present. {: .speaker-JSK} ##### Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC -- Have they been tried there? . . {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- Yes. **Mr. Hamilton,** the manager of the Great Boulder mine, tried to perfect the Taylor-Horsfield drill that came from Bendigo in order, I suppose, that he might be able to use that class of drill at a lower cost than he had to give for imported drills. He expended considerable time and energy in the attempt, but ultimately had to abandon it. Surely when the locally-made drill can be obtained under present conditions for *£7less* than the imported, there must be some solid reason for mining managers buying the dearer article. Their justification is that the locally-made drill has not been perfected up to the condition of the imported drill. It is not a question of prejudice at all, but a question of capacity to meet the existing conditions. If I could see my way clear to vote for the duty, I should be very pleased to do so, but I cannot do so when I know that it means imposing a tax of about £20,000 per annum on the mining industry. I thoroughly believe that the imposition of the duty will not diminish the number of drills imported. The drill that has been giving satisfaction, that has a superior valve gear, and has the advantage of a number of other patents, will still be preferred. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- The patent is nearly run out now. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- There are about forty different patents in connexion with the Ingersoll-Rand drill, and I believe there are more recent patents in connexion with the Holman drill. What patent is running out ? {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- The Ingersoll. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- The valve gear of the machine has been perfected, and so have the general workmanship and the design. All these improvements have been patented. Which patent is likely to run out? {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -The Austral Company have purchased Shaw's patent rights. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- If the Austral Company can make a satisfactory drill I shall be very pleased. But seeing that the locally-made drill, when made under Australian conditions, can be sold for *£7* less than . the imported one, I see no justification for imposing a burden of *£20,000* on the mining industry. As to the question of who will ultimately pay for it, if the Committee insist on piling these duties in a general fashion upon the mining industry in connexion with articles that cannot be satisfactorily producedin Australia, instead of putting prohibitive rates on articles that can be satisfactorily made here, and allowing those which cannot to come in free, it is the working man who will ultimately suffer, because he will lose his employment in the mining propositions of Australia. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Very few men in any line of business will admit that the articles which they use can be made in Australia. That argument will apply all round, and, according to many persons, we should make nothing here. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- I fail to see the point of the interjection. A great number of necessities in machinery for which there is a market in Australia are being satisfactorily produced here now. But there are other classes of machinery which, on account of patent rights and their highly technical construction, we cannot produce satisfactorily. I believe that this is one of them, and that the patent rights in connexion with the imported drills make them absolutely superior to the locally made. They are so superior that mining managers have been compelled to pay the higher price for them. We are asked now, in order to give employment to a very few workmen in Bendigo, to impose this great additional burden on the mining industry, which must ultimately affect the men employed therein. There is no justification for. it, and I am prepared to accept the amendment requested by the Senate. {: #debate-14-s36 .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID:
East Sydney There appears to be a difference of opinion as to whether the duty should be 5 per cent, or 20 per cent., or some intermediate rate, and I think the Committee would be glad to have, the question] put in sucha way that a clear vote can be taken on the item. . It may be a- matter of some difficulty to decide how it is to be put. I understand from the Chair, that if the usual proposition, " That the requested amendment be not made," is put and agreed to, that will be conclusive, and the duty will remain at 20 per cent. That would not) be satisfactory to the Com- mittee because *I* understand that a number of honorable members are not in. favour of the Senate's request, but are willing to adopt some duty lower than 20 per cent. We should arrive at some way of putting the question, to enable those who are against the Senate's request- to vote against it, and then allow others, to propose am alternative if- they -like. It - is usual in a case of that! nature to give the Committee an opportunity of halving a straightout . vote. "... {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Would it not be better to put it the other way ? If an honorable member is in. favour of 15 per cent., let him propose it. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID: -- That is beginning at the wrong end. . I suggest that if the proposition were that the Senate's- requested amendment be made it would enable a straight vote to be taken. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- That would settle the question. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID: -- No, because if that were negatived it would still be open to the Committee to modif y the request. . {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- The best way is to* put the question that the duty of 5 per cent, be omitted. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The lowest figure is always put first to the Committee. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID: -- I think that if the question were put that the requested amendment to 5 per cent, be made, the opinion of the Committee could be tested, because all " those who wished to make the duty higher could vote for the omission of that figure. I desire to say a. few words on the main question, because I detect rather a strong disposition on the other- side to prolong the agony on the Tariff. I am not going to help them, because they have a sword hanging over their heads, and want to leave it there as long as they can. A rock drill is really a tool of trade. Hundreds of tools of trade are admitted free for industries which are getting a protection of 30 or 40 per cent., but -the gold miners, the coal miners, the copper miners, and the tin miners do not get a shred of protection out of the Tariff. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Still it is opening up *other* avenues of employment for their children. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID: -- Why should not the arti-. sans on gold-fields, or the companies which employ them - for it is exactly . the same thing - get their tools of trade free if the artisans in other industries get theirs free? Take the hat and. other factories which are protected to the extent of. 30 or 40 per cent. - - indeed, some hats have been given a protection of 120 per cent. - they get their tools of trade free, and but for a protest from this side, they would have got free machinery too. .Why should not the gold mining industry have its tools of trade free if the artisans of Sydney and Melbourne get theirs free, seeing that the. latter get a protection in respect of the articles which they' produce? The miners do not get a single shred of protection. Theirs is a most un-. certain industry. As every one knows, thousands of miners depend not upon their own industry, not upon the merits of their work, but upon whether a certain mining proposition is paying. If it is not paying, they are thrown out of work. Other industries are made secure in that regard by giving them a protection of 40 per cent. There is no such protection given to the miners, and therefore I submit that the mining industry should receive the same advantage as regards a tool of trade. I hope that I have not disturbed the conversations in the chamber. {: #debate-14-s37 .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I am quite proud of the plea which has been put in for the working miner by the leader of the Opposition, but he has missed one point. He has stated that when a mine closes down the miners cannot get work. Now, he has forgotten all about our policy of protection to get them work. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- What do we do for a man whose mine is closed down? {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- We must all admit that it would be a very serious thing for any big mine .to be shut. down. But we must aim at becoming an exporting country in time. We have all the raw material, and if we cannot manufacture as well' as other countries, and export our manufactures in time- {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- I wonder that they do not export rock drills. {: .speaker-KFN} ##### Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- If the honorable member will only exercise a little patience he may even see rock drills exported. Seeing that Australia is an important mining country with great possibilities, my idea is to have all the machinery used in our mines made locally if possible and under the best conditions. If the machinery for gold mines is made here that will assist the coal and iron mines and other branches of mining. While I voted in the light of certain knowledge for a duty of 20 per cent, on rock drills I feel inclined now, owing to later information, to ask for a reduction of the rate. I am willing to take the lowest rate, which I consider is fairly protective, and that is 15 per cent. If the Treasurer would adopt my suggestion it would be a fair arrangement. Otherwise it will be better to admit rock drills free than to impose a duty of 5 or 10 per cent., because that would be merely a revenue duty. A point .was brought up by the honorable member for Batman, which I cannot allow to pass without comment, and that was that working miners are not af fected by the price of rock drills. That is a very absurd idea. The whole thing hinges upon the working of low-grade mines. We know that in Australia there are thousands of mining propositions which by very cheap treatment could be made to pay. We should not hinder any companies which are willing to invest their capital in that direction from opening up their mining propositions. The very first men to benefit when a mining proposition is opened up are the employes. The honorable member for Batman also overlooked the fact that we have got beyond the pick and shovel days of mining and have now reached the era of machine mining. In the future the mining of Australia will have to be done mainly by large machinery and with large capital. It is therefore of no use for him te suggest to the Committee that it is not ' desired to tax the pick and shovel which a poor man uses. He, as well as anybody else, has to use machines. If a body of men undertake mining contracts or take a mine on tribute they, too, must use machinery. If I had the opportunity I should urge that a bounty upon, the production of mining machinery should be offered, because, in my opinion, that would be much fairer to the rnining industry than a protective duty. After listening to the statements of honorable members I am rather in doubt as to which drill is the more efficient - the . Australian or the imported. That there are a number of mine-owners who greatly prefer the foreign drill goes without saying. But, seeing that a company has manufactured a fairly efficient drill, struggled along, and sold a large number of drills, I think that it would be unfair to take away all protection from them." Therefore I shall support a duty of 15 per cent. {: #debate-14-s38 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- For the convenience of the Committee I intend to divide the proposition and in the first instance only to put the question that the requested alteration to 5 per cent, be not made. The Committee will be able to fill a blank if made with any figure which it may desire. It will be necessary for the Treasurer to withdraw his motion. Question - That the requested amendment making the duty on item 176, paragraph d (General Tariff), 5 per cent., be not made- put. The Committee divided. AYES: 27 NOES: 27 AYES NOES *Customs* [30 April, 1908.] *Tariff Bill.* 10725 {: #debate-14-s39 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The numbers being equal, I give my casting vote with the "Noes." Question so resolved in the negative. Motion negatived. Requested amendment made. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I wish to point out to the Committee that the noise and the exchange of interjections which frequently take place during the progress of divisions are scarcely in keeping with the dignity of this Chamber, and that it is a matter of impossibility for me to preserve order without the assistance of honorable members. Many times when I have attempted to call the Committee to order, I have not been able to raise my voice sufficiently to make myself heard. I ask honorable members to assist me in maintaining order whilst divisions are in progress. Of course, it is only natural that a certain amount of excitement should be engendered at such times, and I am prepared to allow a reasonable latitude in that connexion, but I do ask the Committee to help me to maintain more decorum than was manifested during the division just taken. {: #debate-14-s40 .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne .- I wish to know whether I should be in order in proposing that the duty under the general Tariff should be 10 per cent. ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- No. The honorable member would be quite in order in submitting such a proposal if a blank had been created, but no blank has been created. On the contrary, the Committee have already decided that the duty of 5 per cent. shall stand. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- Then I understand that, by your casting vote, sir - which, in my opinion, was not in accordance with the rule usually adopted - the item has been made absolutely free? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member must not question my vote. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- I am not questioning your vote, sir, because I know that it was an honest vote. But do I understand that this item has been made absolutely free? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- By my casting vote, the Committee have decided that the duty upon the item under the general Tariff shall be 5 per cent. It is now open to any honorable member to submit a modification of the request in the second column of the schedule. {: #debate-14-s41 .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie -- I trust that the Government will move either for the imposition of a 5 per cent. duty all round, or that the duty of 15 per cent. shall stand. Five per cent. is merely a revenue duty. {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr Wilks: -- We might as well make the duty 5 per cent. all round now. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I think that we ought to do that, in view of the fact that so many honorable members have altered their opinions upon this question since it was previously under consideration. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- They are beginning to follow the example set by the Treasurer! {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- This is the protection of the honorable member for Flinders. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I should like to ask whether it is competent for the Government in another place to move for the abolition of the 5 per cent. rate? {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr Wilks: -- Let us recommit the item. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Under the circumstances, I hope that the Government will admit these articles from the United Kingdom at 5 per cent. or free, as the Senate has suggested. {: .speaker-K8L} ##### Mr Thomas: -- Why not give a preference to the Motherland? 10726 *Customs.* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- The honorable member - strong advocate as he is of preferential trade - voted to deprive the United Kingdom of a preference by admitting these articles free under the general Tariff when they were formerly dutiable at 5 per cent. He did that deliberately. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is there any motion before the Committee? I wish to know what the Government intend to move. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir Wiliam Lyne: -- I want to know what the honorable member is going to do. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Upon a former occasion the honorable member for Flinders voted against the imposition of a duty of 15 per cent. on this item, and in favour of a duty of 20 per cent. In the recent division, however, he voted for a 5 per cent. rate. I expect that he will vote for the admission of these articles free if he gets the opportunity to do so. At a later stage: - if the Government do not take action in that direction - I shall move that the item be recommitted with a view either to making it dutiable at 15 per cent. or to admitting it free. Motion - That the requested amendment making the duty on item 176, paragraph d (United Kingdom), free, be not made - withdrawn. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment . making the duty on item 176, paragraph d (United Kingdom), free, be made. {: #debate-14-s42 .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir -- Those honorable members who call themselves protectionists, and who - after voting for 20 per cent. upon this item when it-was previously under consideration in. opposition to 15 per cent. - assisted just now to defeat a proposal to levy a reasonable duty upon it. are worse than our direct opponents. They have attempted to place those who are endeavouring to frame a scientific Tariff in a false position. I hold in my hand a volume of *Hansard* which shows that when this matter was formerly under consideration the honorable member for Flinders and the honorable member for Echuca, both of whom were returned to this House because of their professed protectionist principles, voted in favour of a duty of 20 per cent. in opposition to a duty of 15 per cent. If this Committee is not entitled to an explanation regarding their change of front, certainly their constituents are. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member might leave us to our constituents. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- The honorable member is, perhaps, right. It would be unkind- to refer to the honorable member's constituents, who might feel annoyed at the attitude which he has assumed upon this item and at the way in which he has betrayed their trust. . I deeply regret that the duty proposed in respect of this item should have been defeated. {: .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr Hedges: -- I wish to know if the remarks of the honorable member are relevant to the question before the Chair? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is quite in order. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- I was about to say that it has been recognised from time immemorial that when there is a conflict of opinion, as in the present instance, the question should be left over for further consideration. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Take defeat like a man ! {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- There is no defeatwhat has happened is a humiliation to those who have succeeded. The honorable members I have indicated must be peculiarly constituted if they can take a pride in such a victory. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Whom has the honorable member indicated? {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- I am referring to those who previously voted for a protective duty of 20 per cent., and have now voted for a duty of 5 per cent. The honorable member for Echuca was returned by the people as a protectionist; but, if he claims to be a protectionist now, I pity the electors who trusted him. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member has been addressing the Committee for at least five minutes on a vote recently taken. While the honorable "member may incidentally refer to that vote, I submit that he may not proceed to discuss it. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -The honorable member for Gwydir has no right to discuss a vote which has been taken. I have been trying to follow the honorablemember, but I candidly confess that. I have not been able to do so, owing to the noise caused by the constant conversations amongst honorable members. I have repeatedly asked honorable members to discontinue these conversations ; and I now again appeal to them. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- I am rather surprised that the honorable member for Parramatta, of all men. should raise an objection to an honorable member expressing his opinion of other honorable members. The honorable member for Paramatta, the greatest sinner of all- *Customs .* [30 April, 1908.] *Tariff Bill.* 10727 {: #debate-14-s43 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! {: #debate-14-s44 .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- I desire to know whether, when we come to a division on the question immediately beforeus, we are to expect further lightning changes on the part of some honorable members? {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- The honorable member must remember that the changes are not all on one side. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- The most striking changes are on one side. {: .speaker-JSK} ##### Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC -- Does the honorable member for Gwydir never change his mind ? {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- Yes, when I have good ground, and always in the right direction. {: .speaker-JSK} ##### Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC -- Then, may others not change their minds? {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr WEBSTER: -- Some people not only change their minds, but change their coats. However, I leave the Honorable members I have mentioned to their electors. {: #debate-14-s45 .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS:
Dalley .- I am glad that the Government propose to accept the suggestion in the second column ; but I trust that, later, this item will be recommitted. A suggestion to that effect has been made by the honorable member for Laanecoorie ; and I hope he will follow that up by a motion, if the Government do not take action. Rather than have a duty of 5 per cent., I should like to see the item absolutely duty free. At present, we find that the engineering industry has been most badly treated. Other industries have had their cup filled every time, but the engineers are asked to be satisfied with a duty of 5 per cent. and free. There has been a combination of the. mining and agricultural votes, whether protectionist or free-trade, to practically free this item. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- And a turn-coat vote. {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -- I shall not.deal with that aspect. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Put it in another way - a Flinders vote. {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -- The honorable member for Flinders and others may look after their own troubles; all I desire to point out is that the most robust industry of engineering is given the least assistance. It is surprising that I, a free-trader, should have to fight for protection for that industry; but I desire to emphasize the cruelty of protectionists, who, while giving every consideration to the textile and other trades, leave the engineering tradewith the small duty which I have mentioned. We have heard about geographical protectionists ; but it is a fact that engineering is a specialized industry of New South Wales, and that this request is a blow at that State. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Hear the cheers of the Victorians ! {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -- I hear the cheers of the Treasurer ; and the honorable member for Wentworth need not be concerned about my attitude - I can look after myself very well. But the cheers of the Government are of no' avail, unless they follow the cheers up by recommitting this item. Many honorable members have indicated that they would like a duty of 15 per cent., and I suggest that, when the item is recommitted, . the Ministry do not propose 20 per cent., but test the genuineness of those honorable members by proposing a duty of 15 per cent. I would rather have a duty of 15 per cent. than no duty ; but rather than have 5 per cent. I would prefer absolute freedom. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Some honorable members, who said they would support 15 per cent., voted for 5 per cent. {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -Try those honorable members with a proposal of duties of 15 and 10 per cent. {: #debate-14-s46 .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON:
Batman .- I hope the Committee will decide to make this item free, because I do not believe in a revenue duty of 5 per cent.' {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- That cannot be done now. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- Then I hope that the Government will wait until the Chairman of the Tariff Commission returns, so that honorable gentlemen in the Opposition corner, who promised to follow him, may have an opportunity to do so. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Who promised to follow the honorable member for Bendigo? Like all the honorable member's statements, the one he has just made is not based on fact. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I am not referring to the right honorable member for Swan, but to the honorable member for Flinders and the honorable member for Echuca. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What does the honorable member for Batman say. about me? {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- I say that the. honorable member for Flinders decided to 'follow the recommendations of the Chairman of the Tariff Commission. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member for Batman says something that is absolutely incorrect ; such a statement was never made by. me at any time. {: .speaker-K5J} ##### Mr COON: -- In my. opinion, as a protectionist, a duty of 5 per cent, is not enough, and as we cannot increase the duty our only course is to make the item free in the next column. As a genuine protectionist, I am prepared to support the Government if they see their way to propose a recommittal of the item in order to give some sham protectionists an opportunity, to reverse their vote. {: #debate-14-s47 .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX:
Kooyong -- Inasmuch as the Committee have decided that the general Tariff shall be 5 per cent. - a decision which I hope will be subsequently reversed - I intend to ask honorable members to make the item free in the second column. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I have already moved to that effect. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- I venture to think that the position is most inequitable. The Holman drill which, I believe, is made in Cornwall, is one of the best here; and if we are to have preference, it should be in favour of the British drill, as against the combination drill to which reference has been made. I urge that the item be made free in the second column, in order that we may more effectually have a reconsideration of the position. {: #debate-14-s48 .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne .- It is to be regretted that, owing to the forms of the House, there is no means of meeting such circumstances as have arisen. There are members opposite who have intimated that they would have been willing to vote for a duty of 15 per cent. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member must not question a vote alreadygiven. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- I suppose that this is not the time to interfere with the forms of the House? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The question before the Committee is whether the item shall be free in the second column. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- It is somewhat unfortunate that some honorable members on the other side, who would have been willing, I understand, to vote for duties of 15 and 10 per cent.- {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I cannot allow the honorable member to follow that line of argument, which would re-open the whole question. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- I take it there is no way of getting over the difficulty as between 15 per- cent", and free. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If the honorable ' member so desires, he may move to omit the word " free" and insert some modification. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- That would place me in an awkward position. No one can contend for a moment that 5 per cent, represents any adequate protection. I do not see, 'however, why honorable members should castigate the honorable member for Flinders and the honorable member ,for Echuca, who are quite justified in holding their own opinions. If those honorable members are free-traders, what matter? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- So long as they admit the fact ! {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- Quite so. .1 am perfectly certain that any one with experience of the honorable member for Flinders, would never .trust him ; he certainly deceived me on one occasion. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- The vote of the honorable member for Flinders can be explained only in one way, of which his past life is a proof. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the honorable member for Melbourne not to discuss the vote given by the honorable member for Flinders. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- Then I take it that honorable members who preceded me were out of order in discussing the matter, but were permitted to proceed. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the honorable member to confine himself to- the question before the Committee. If other honorable members have transgressed - it may be through my fault in allowing them to do so - that fact does not justify the honorable member in transgressing. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- Then I shall not ' transgress ; but I congratulate the honorable members who preceded me on the opportunity which they had, but which is denied to me. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I must ask the honorable member to withdraw that remark. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- I will withdraw it, though I cannot see any other way in which I can put what I desire to say. I should like to put my meaning in more suitable words. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I must ask the hon:orable member to withdraw the remark unconditionally. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY: -- Certainly ; with the greatest of pleasure. I hope I shall be permitted to say that certain honorable members, after the vote which they gave in the last division, will be known as flounders *Customs* [30 April, 1908.] *Tariff Bill.* 10729: and chickens, and their votes as flounder and chicken votes; because I can assure them that the fish that I have named is one that dodges and wriggles, whilst any one who has seen an Australian chicken running round and turning somersaults will understand the application of the remark to the second honorable member to whom I am referring. {: #debate-14-s49 .speaker-KUF} ##### Mr SPENCE:
Darling -- I hope that the Government will not be led into a trap. They have been asked to recommit the item with a view of getting a good rousing revenue duty attached to it. Let us either have a protective Tariff or nothing. An attempt is being made to get rid of the proposed preference to Great Britain in this instance. I ask the Government to stick to their original proposal in this respect, and not agree to anything in the nature of a recommittal. Members of the Government have told us over and over again that duties of 10 and 15 per cent. are merely high revenue duties, and, as one who believes that the worst kind of Tariff is a revenue Tariff, I shall not support anything of that sort. The Government, having been beaten on a protectionist proposal, should stand by their preference proposal, which amounts to only 5 per cent. I trust that the Senate's suggestion will be agreed to. {: #debate-14-s50 .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie -- I should like to inquire as to what amount of duty would be paid if the Committee were to defeat the proposal of the Government that rock-drills be free under the United Kingdom column? Suppose that the members of the Opposition and the Opposition corner, with a few honorable members from this side of the chamber, coalesce for the time being and defeat the Government proposition ; what will happen with regard to the duty? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I do not know that I am called uponto give a decision on that point. The honorable member for Laanecoorie can see just as well as I can that if the word ' ' free ' ' be deleted, the duty on imports from the United Kingdom would be 15 per cent. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- That would mean that amother place would have another oppor tunity of considering the question. If, however, we agree to the word " free," the item will not go back to the Senate for reconsideration. The effect of striking out the word " free " would be to give the Senate another opportunity of considering the whole position. I noticed very par- ticularly that while the lash was being ap plied to certain honorable members in the Opposition corner, none seemed to enjoy the spectacle more than the occupants of the front Opposition bench. Not one word of protest - not one sympathetic interjection - came from the direct Opposition. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I must ask the honorable member to discuss the question before the Chair. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I put it to honorable members whether it would not be better to give the other branch of the Legislature an opportunity of reconsidering the question ? {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- There is no need for reconsideration: {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Of course, those who have won do not want reconsideration. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- We might ask for the reconsideration of every item as to which we have not carried our proposals. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I should not blame the honorable member and hiscolleagues if they were to ask for the *reconsideration of* every item upon which they have lost. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- We should have perpetual Tariff business before us if we did that. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Exactly; and the Government would be perpetually in office. As a loyal supporter of the Government I should be only too glad to see almost anything done that would keep them in office. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr Frazer: -- Is that the reason for the honorable member's present attitude? {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- No; I have a better reason than that. I desire to secure an opportunity for the Senate to reconsider the item before us. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- It is not a question of reconsideration by another place, but as to whether the word " free " shall stand in the second column. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- And my point is that if the word "free" be not retained there will be an opportunity for reconsideration by the Senate, which is what I desire. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- That is an extraordinary procedure to suggest. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member must not discuss what the Senate may do. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Surely I may discuss what may fake place if we adopt a certain course ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If I allowed the honorable member to discuss what will probably take place if a certain course is pursued by this Committee I must allow other honorable members who desire to rebut his 10730 *Customs* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Tariff Bill.* argument to do so, and then the debate will degenerate into a discussion as to what will take place elsewhere. I ask the honorable member not to continue that line of argument. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- I am merely asking honorable members to consider the advisableness of a course of procedure which will have the effect of securing a certain result. It is also desirable to give certain honorable members in this Committee an opportunity for reconsideration. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- In other words, we should give the converts another chance. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr SALMON: -- Exactly; a little delay will give an opportunity for conversion in other quarters. I ask those honorable members who desire to see a protective duty maintained on this item to vote against the proposal of the Government, and to refuse to allow the word " free" to stand. The result will then be that the 15 per cent. duty will operate, and the Senate will have another chance of giving consideration to an industry that deserves better treatment than it has received. {: #debate-14-s51 .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 .- The honorable member for Laanecoorie has raised a point which seems to me entirely inconsistent with the whole method which we have adopted in dealing with this Tariff. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- Did the honorable member mention inconsistency ? {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member need not feel apprehensive in the slightest degree. I do not intend to refer to him any further, but have rather risen with the object of making the position plainer. "Let the galled jade wince"; it is not for us to cry out. I wish to draw attention to the point which has been raised by the honorable member. In obedience to your ruling, sir, I do not for a moment intend to say what is likely or not likely to happen in the Senate, but honorable mem-' bers may go to a division under a misapprehension, having heard what the honorable member for Laanecoorie has said, if no reply is made. If I understand the position rightly, whatever we do on this particular matter now before the Committee. - whether we make the item free in the second column, adopting the Senate's suggestion, or whether we do not - we shall not open the way . for the Senate to make another alteration in the item. Throughout this debate, you, Mr.Chairman, in dealing with a request for several different amendments in one item, have put those requested amendments separately, and I submit that you have been right in doing so. We are entitled to accept, reject, or accept with a modification each of the amendments requested in respect of any one item, and I contend that nothing we may do in respect of the duty now before us will enable the Senate to reopen the question on which a division has just been taken. The honorable member for Laanecoorie seemed to be under the impression - and in the absence of a reply to his speech others may hold the same view - that we may take certain action in respect of the question immediately before us which will have the effect of reopening the matter with which we have just dealt. That would be not only unconstitutional, but entirely repugnant to the course which you, sir, have adopted throughout the consideration of the Senate's requests. If some honorable members are dissatisfied with the decisive expression of opinion just given, they may ask the Government to' recommit the item. {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- The question was. negatived on a casting vote. Was that a decisive expression of opinion ? {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I admit that the motion was not negajtived by a large majority, but what I wish to point out is that there is a plain course open to those who desire to reopen the question. It is open to the Government to move the recommittal of the request, and the Treasurer has indicated that he intends to do so. No purpose will be served by crying out loudly about the result of the vote just taken. {: #debate-14-s52 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- I desire it to be understood that I have been led to move the acceptance of the Senate's request that imports from the United Kingdom under this paragraph of item 176 be free because of the division which has just taken place,and not because I believe that they should be free. Owing to the votes of certain honorable members, who, I presumed, judging by their utterances, would be sitting on this side of the House, I am prevented from doing what 1 desired to do. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I must ask the honorable member not to refer in detail to the, matter with which we have just dealt. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I am giving my reasons for submitting this motion. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- The matter has been decided by the Committee, not by individuals. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- By individuals -by turncoats ! *Customs* . [30 April, 1908.] Tariff *Bill.* 10731 {: #debate-14-s53 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable gentleman must withdraw that remark. {: #debate-14-s54 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Protectionist -- If it fits any honorable member, and is regarded as offensive, I' willingly withdraw it. Having regard to what has taken place, I think that the proper course for me to take is to move that the Senate's request be agreed to, at all events for the time being. I do not propose to discuss what would be the effect of rejecting the request; but if the matter with which we have just dealt is again to be considered by the Committee, I take it that the proper course to adopt will be to move for the recommittal of the request. The honorable member for Flinders said that the Government had intimated that they intended to move for a recommittal. As a matter of fact I have made no such statement. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I understood the honorable member had said so. {: #debate-14-s55 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLI AM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist -I have made no such promise, but the probabilities are that the recommittal will.be moved, because I regard the division just taken as one of the most important that we have had on the Tariff, and one the result of, which will be most disastrous. I wish to emphasize the point that I am submitting this motion only because I feel that, judging by the result of the last division, I could not hope at present to secure the rejection of the request. In view of this explanation rip honorable member will be able to say hereafter that in submitting themotion I entered into a compact of any kind. Motion agreed to . Requested amendment, making Rotary and Percussive Rock Drills imported from the United Kingdom free (item 176, paragraph d), made. And on and after 29th November, 1907 - Item 176- {: type="a" start="e"} 0. Coal Cutting Machines; Side Plates, and Balls for Ball Mills, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. *Request.* -Leave out the words " Side Plates, and Ball for Ball Mills." Make the item free. {: #debate-14-s56 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- This request covers two suggested amendments, with which we shall have to deal separately. I move - >That the requested amendment, leaving out the words " Side Plates, and Balls for Ball Mills," be made, but that after the word " Machines " the letters "n.e.i." be inserted. It is desired to delete these words in concurrence with the requested amendment of item 170, providing for the insertion of new paragraph aa whichwe agreed to this afternoon. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I wish to take your ruling, **Mr. Chairman,** as to whether' the Treasurer can introduce new matter, as he proposes to do, by inserting the letters "n.e.i."? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- That will be a modification of the requested amendment, taken in conjunction with requested amendment No. 80, providing for the insertion of a new paragraph in item 170. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member now. suggests words which may link this with many other items in the Tariff. In the absence of any explanation we do not know what will be the effect of the insertion of the letters "n.e.i." Such an amendment may have reference to forty . other items in the Tariff. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- It will relate only to coal-cutting machines. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It will make coalcutting machines n.e.i. dutiable, whereas they are now free. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910 -- Coal-cutting machines under the general Tariff are dutiable at 5 per cent., but when imported from' theUnited Kingdom are free. *Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m.* Motionwithdrawn. Requested amendment of wording of item made. Requested amendment making the item free not made. Item 176 {: type="a" start="f"} 0. Rock-boring machines n.e.i,, ad val. ; (General Tariff), 25 per cent., (United Kingdom), 20 per cent. *Request.* - Make the item free. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment be not made. {: #debate-14-s57 .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie .- I think the Minister should give some reason why this requested amendment should not be. made. Wehave dealt in a previousitem with the w hole of the rock drills that are used in the mining industry, and if the Minister insists that this requested amendment be not made, the only effect will be to place animpost on machinery required by prospecting parties and persons searching for artesian water, without at the same time rendering assistance to any Australian industry. Question put. Ayes Noes The Committee divided. ....... 28 22 AYES: 0 NOES: 0 Majority AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Requested amendment not made. {: #debate-14-s58 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I must again appeal to honorable members to cease continuous conversation. I am quite unable to follow the right honorable member who is speaking, and if honorable members must converse, I hope they will do so in lower tones. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- You will readily understand, sir, the point I raise. The procedure suggested to you in dealing with the Senate's request No. 86 seems to me to have been most convenient. It would give to those who are not in favour of an item being free, but who are in favour of a duty lower than that, proposed,, an opportunity of so voting. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I would point out to the honorable member that, under the circumstances, his course would be to move a modification of the motion of the Treasurer. For instance, on the next request, in item 177, the Treasurer may move that it be made or not made, and then it will be competent for the honorable member to move that the request be made' with the modification that the duty be 15 per cent, or 10 per cent. I would then first put tq the vote the lowest duty proposed. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- My point is that I may be anxious to have the lowest possible duty, and, having failed to get that, I may desire to have an intermediate duty between the highest duty and the one proposed in the first place. It appears to . me, however, that I am precluded from doing so under the procedure now being adopted. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member would have, been quite -in order, on the last item, if he had moved, as a modification, to impose a duty of 10 per cent, or 15 per cent. Had such a modification been carried, the request as amended would have been returned to the Senate. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- But in such case I would losemy right of voting for an intermediate rate. {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -- If this matter were before us in the ordinary way, and not as a request from the Senate, I presume that it would be possible, after the rejection of the motion that the item be free, to move that the duty be, say, 5 per cent. If that be so, I submit, with great respect, that we ought to adopt that procedure now . If the first proposal is not carried, any higher duty, within the range of 25 per cent., should be open to discussion. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- It is not possible to follow the ordinary procedure, because we have already before us a stated amendment, as a request, from the Senate ; and we can either accept, reject, or accept it with a modification. When the Treasurer moves that a certain request be accepted or rejected, as the case may be, it is competent for an honorable member to move a modification by way of amendment, imposing a higher or a lesser duty. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- But I point out that the modification is placed in contradistinction to the proposal to make the item free ; and it is that we desire to avoid. We desire to have the item free if possible, but, if we cannot carry that, we ought to be at liberty to propose a modification as near to free as meets our views. As things are now, however, we must either vote to make an item free,or vote to impose the duty in the schedule ; that is, we may vote for a modification, but it will be a modification which prevents our voting to make the item free. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I submit that the item in which the word " free " was inserted has been passed. In the next item to be considered there is no question of the alteration of the duty. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- This is a question of prder and procedure. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Yes; but would it not be better to raise that question on item 177? {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- I am not quite clear as to our powers as set forth in your ruling, **Mr. Chairman.** I take it that we are now dealing with item 177, embracing dynamoelectric machines of a certain capacity. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- That is not the point before us now. {: .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr Watkins: -- I take it that in item 177 we are not called upon to deal with the duty in any way, but with the suggested alteration of the horse- power and the omission of the word " including." {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -- I may not have made myself quite clear. What I submit is that the question ought to be put in such a way as to enable us to vote for some duty between that originally passed by us and the duty suggested by the Senate. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I point out that I am following the course that has been followed all through. It is quite competent for any honorable member to move any duty he thinks proper. In item 177B, for instance, the Senate requests that the duty of 12½ per cent. proposed by the House of Representatives be not imposed, and that the item be made free; and, as soon as the Treasurer moves that that request be accepted or rejected, it will be competent for any honorable member to move, by way of amendment, whatever duty he thinks ought to be inserted. That amendment will be put first, and then, if it be negatived, honorable members will have an opportunity of voting to make the item free. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I submit with great respect- {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- Does the honorable member dissent from the Chairman's ruling? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- No one is suggest ing any dissent from the Chairman's ruling; but I shall move a dissent, if that be the only means of clearing up the matter. We do not desire the questions to be put in the way in which they are being put. {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- The rate of duty is not in question in item 17 7 a, dynamo-electric machines ; and I submit that the honorable member for Parramatta is out of order. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The question is not one of duty, but one of order; and it is just as well that the position should be made clear. I rule that an honorable member is quite in order in moving, as a modification, any amendment he thinks proper, providing it is relevant. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- But we who believe that the Senate's request to make an item free should be accepted will be compelled to vote for, say, a duty of 5 per cent. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Why ? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Because we desire to have the item free if we can make it so ; and, if we. cannot, we desire to have the alternative of making a modification. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- The honorable member wants two strings to his bow. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Of course, because the Constitution says' we shall have two strings - " with or without modification." {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- The honorable member desires " with and without," not " with or without. " {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- We desire the matter put to the vote until the mind of the Committee is ascertained ; and we cannot ascertain the mind of the Committee when a duty of 5 per cent, is placed in contradistinction to making an item free, and we are asked to vote for 5 per cent., while we are in favour of free. The Chairman says that we may move that a duty, which stands in the schedule at 25 per cent., be 5 per cent, or 10 per cent, if we like, but that would shut us out from voting- to make the item free. There should- be an opportunity, at some stage or other-, of voting for making the item free, without the alternative of afterwards voting only for the full amount; because such a position is contrary to the spirit of the Constitution. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I cannot allow an endless discussion. I have ruled that it is quite in order for any honorable member to move any modification he may think proper to a request from the Senate. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr Knox: -- At what stage? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Assoon asthe Treasurer moves that a request be accepted or rejected, it is competent for any honors able member to move any modification he may desire. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- In the event of the. Treasurer proposing that the Senate's request in the next item be not accepted, and that motion is. carried, would it then be competent for any honorable member to move any duty between 20 per cent, and free? If so, it would be better for the Treasurer to move that the duty be 20 per cent., and then leave honorable members to move any modification they desire. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr Knox: -- On item 176, rock-boring machines, whichwe have, just passed, I did not give the vote I desired to give, simply because I had no opportunity of doing so. I was opposed to the item being tree, andnot in favour of so high a duty as 25 per cent., being prepared to vote for a duty of 15 per cent. I think that in such a case there should be some opportunity given to honorable members to vote for a' duty between 25 per cent. and free. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I have already ruled on that point. And on and after 29th November, 1907 - Item 177. . Electrical Machines, Appliances, and parts thereof : - (a)m Dynamo Electric (Machines up to the capacity of 500 horse-power, including- static transformers and induction coils for all purposes ; electric fans, ad val.,'20 per cent. *Requests.* - Leave out " 500 " and insert " 10." Leave out the word " including," and insert a semi-colon. {: #debate-14-s59 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- I move - >That the requested amendment, leaving out " 500 " . and inserting "10," be not made. There was a long discussion when the question was before the Committee previously. Information, was given and letters were. produced to show that machines up to 500 horse-power were made here. To make the amendment requested by the Senate would have rather a disastrous effect upon the manufacturers of dynamo electric machines up to that capacity. The reduction appears to be ridiculous. {: .speaker-L1R} ##### Mr Wynne: -- What ought the figure to be reduced to? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I do not think it ought to be reduced at all. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. Requested, amendment, leaving out the word " including " and inserting a semicolon, made. Item 177. Electrical Machines, &c- {: type="a" start="d"} 0. Dynamo Electric Machines over the capacity of 500 horse-power, ad val.,12½ per cent. *Requests.* - Leave out " 500 " and insert " 10." Make the item free. Requested amendment, leaving out " 500 " and inserting " 10," not made. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested . amendment, making the item free, be not made. {: #debate-14-s60 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr JOHNSON:
Lang .- Seeing that we cannot carry the amendment to . make the item free, shall I be ini order in movr ing to make the duty 5 per cent. ? Some honorable members are in ' favour of." a reduction, of the existing duty of 12½ per cent., while they are not prepared to make the item free. On second thoughts, I do not think that I will move for 5 per cent, instead of " free." {: #debate-14-s61 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -.The Treasurer has moved ".That the amendment be not made." I desire to move as an. amendment on that motion - >That the following words be added : - " In the form in which it appears in this column." {: #debate-14-s62 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- As the honorable member can achieve the same object by voting against the Treasurer's motion, I cannot accept his amendment. It is a direct negative of the motion. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I do not want the amendment requested by the Senate to be disagreed with. I "wish to leave the way open for a modification of it afterwards if the Treasurer's motion is agreed to. If the motion is put in the form in which the Treasurer has moved it, and is agreed to, you, sir, will not permit me to move any modification afterwards. Mr.W. H. Irvine. - I do not think the form of the amendment proposed by' the honorable member for . Parramatta would give effect to his intention, I understand that he desires to accept the Senate's amendment with a modification. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I wish. to make the item free if I can, but if I am beaten 011 that I want to leave the way open for a further modification. You, sir, have ruled that we must vote either for " free," or for the duty as it stands in the schedule, and that there is 110 way of coming in between the two. I submit that that is not ascertaining the mind of the Committee. The words in the Constitution are very clear. We can make the amendments requested by the Senate "with, or without modifications." If the amendment to insert " free " is not adopted, the Committee should be able to get. as near to " free " as possible.We should be allowed to test the mind of. the Committee as to any further modifications. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- There must be some way in which honorable members who desire the item to be, say,. 5 or 10 per cent., instead of " free," can test the feeling of the Committee, The only difficulty is whether it is possible to move to make the duty 5 per cent, after the division is taken upon the Treasurer's motion.I doubt very much whether the division on the Senate's amendment itself can be taken before the division on any modification of the Senate'samendment. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is. the Chairman's ruling. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I understand the Chairman's ruling to be . that ifthe Committee goes to. a division on the Treasurer's motion, " that the requested amendment, be not made," and if that is carried, and the amendment is not made, there is no possibility of moving a modification. I am inclined to agree with that. Apparently, the only way in which a modification can be moved to insert, say; " 5 per cent.," is as an amendment on the Treasurer's motion, and such amendment must be put before the motion is put. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is precisely what we do not want to do if we can get the item free. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I understand that those who want to carry " free " do not want to embarrass their own action by moving an amendment that the duty be, say, 5 per cent. But that is essentially one of the difficulties; attaching to the position in which we are placed in' dealing with amendments requested by the Senate. The Committee cannot modify a requested amendment after it is wiped out of existence. Under the Constitution we have to deal with the request as it comes to us. As long as that is open, any modification can be moved upon it, but if honorable members, wanting to have the item free, wish to take the division on "free," before a division is taken on any duty intermediate between "'free" and the existing duty, then of course they take the risk of the requested amendment being rejected and so wiped out. The course which I suggest is one which. commits any member who takes it to theintermediate duty . which he proposes, even though he may desire to have that only as a second string to his bow. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- That is thedifficulty which I found myself in. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I am afraid it is a. difficulty which is inseparable, from the position which we are in of dealing with requested, amendments which must either- be made or not made. Any number of modifications may be proposed, but they must all- be dealt with before the crucial division on . the Senate's requested amendment is taken. {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -- **Mr. Chairman** - {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Do I understand that honorable members propose to disagree with my ruling? {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -- We wish to avoid that if possible. I should be very sorry, sir, to disagree with your ruling, because as a general rule, your decisions are absolutely reliable. . But we seem to have been following this practice, not merely while you have been in the chair, but from thebeginning. I have always doubted its expediency. We ought to follow the analogy of what was done by the Committee' originally when dealing with the Tariff before it went to the Senate. The rule then was to put the lowest duty first. We ought to deal first with the Senate's request that the item shall be made free, and if that proposition be rejected, to see to what extent we can go on the lines of the request. We are not bound by the ordinary formula in which questions are put fromthe Chair when we are dealing with matters of substance. I admit that you, sir, have been following the formula which was laid down here at the very beginning of our history, but I doubt whether it is a wise one. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- There is surely away out of this difficulty without dissenting from the Chairman's ruling. Can we not free ourselves from technicalities by moving that the article be free, and on and after 1st May, 1908, dutiable at 10 or 5 per cent, as the case may be. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- A ruling to that effect has already been given. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- If so, it has not been made clear. If such an amendment be carried the item will be free, according to the Senate's request up to the date when the new rate comes into' force. I can see no objection to that course being taken. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Does not the honorable member see that it would compel those who want the article made free to vote against its being made free, and in favour of the duty which he has suggested ? {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- Exactly. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- We want to avoid that. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- Surely the honorable member does not expect to get the item made free? {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- If I can, yes:; if not, with the next modification to free. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- In that case, I think that the honorablemember had better adopt the suggestion of the Chairman, and that is to move the amendment which I have suggested. I am sure that he has no objection to a revenue duty of 5 per cent. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- That is not the question. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- If the honorable member's suggestion were adopted by a freetrader, it would be said at once that when it was suggested to make the item free he' proposed a duty of 5 per cent. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- It may not suit the honorable member's extreme views, but I am quite satisfied to have an intermediate duty. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- Some of us on this side are not; but we would vote, for an intermediate duty, if we could not get the item made free. If we did what the honorable member has suggested we should put ourselves ini a false position. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- Then honorable members are in a position from which there is no escape. They will have to vote against the item being made free. It seems to me that what I -suggest would be a modification within the meaning of the provision in the Constitution. That is the course which I think ought to be taken. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- When we were dealing with the Tariff proposals of the Government in the first instance we were in a different position from that in which weare now when we are dealing with requests relating to the duties ir which we asked the other House to concur. Under the Constitution we have the power to accept wholly or to accept with a modification or to reject a request- of the Senate. Apparently some honorable members desire first to reject the request of the Senate to make this item free, and then to accept the request with a modification, but surely that is not a proper method of transacting our business. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- No. The creation of a blank, as the honorable member knows, is often in itself only a process ; but here the Chairman has ruled that it is final. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- If the Chairman were to accede to the desire of honorable members on the other side it would mean that we should have to take a vote on the question as to whether the item should be made free, and if that proposition were negatived to proceed to modify the request, but that is not within our power. In my opinion once a request is rejected it is disposed of, and the original decision of this Committee stands. There is a. further argument in favour of the attitude adopted- by the Chairman. If he were to accede to the desire of those who wish to get an opportunity to vote that the item be made free, and then to vote for an ascending scale of duty, we should be repeating what we have already done. Surely it is not a businesslike proceeding . to have on every item a repetition of the votes, compromises, and sometimes something worse than compromises, which- we had when we were first dealing with the Tariff proposals of the Government. If honorable members on the other side desire to secure a modification of the Senate's request in this case, the feeling of the Committee must be tested on a substantive motion as against the request itself. ' They must hot try first to secure the request and then to get a modification of it. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- **Mr. Chairman-** {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I point out to the honorable member that it is some time since I ruled on this question, but honorable members have kept on raising points of order. I was desirous of meeting the convenience pf the Committee as far as I possibly could, but I did not see any other way but of the difficulty except the one which I indicated. I must now ask honorable members either to confine themselves to the item before the Committee or to move that my ruling be disagreed with. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- That is what I was -going to do, sir, not as a matter of hostility to you, but because I feel that this very important point ought to be decided by the Speaker. May I ask, sir, whether you have ruled that the Committee cannot have an opportunity of deciding whether it. will adopt the Senate's request, and then if it should not, of modifying the difference between the request and the original proposal ? Surely a modification covers a rate between free and 12 J- per cent. ? Would not 6 per cent, be a modification of the Senate's request that the item should! be made free ? The rejection of the request is one thing; but a modification of it - some figure between free and 12 - is another thing. I should like, sir, to get a ruling on that point from the Speaker if you have no objection, otherwise I can easily get a ruling on another occasion. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The ruling which I gave was that it is open to any honorable member to move any relevant modification on the proposal that the request be ' accepted or rejected. It is competent for any honorable member to move the imposition of any rate provided that it does not exceed the r?.te to which the House has agreed, namely, 12J per cent. If a proposal were submitted that the duty should be fixed at 5 or 10 per cent., that question would be- put first, and ultimately the Committee would deal with the original amendment. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- When an item was under consideration this afternoon, sir, you took a course which seemed to me to be absolutely free from any objection, and I was hoping that you would take a similar course on this occasion. You will remember that when we were dealing with . the Senate's request concerning rotary and percussive rock drills a difficulty arose owing to the fact that some honorable members might wish to vote for the suggestion to make the duties 5 per cent, and free instead of 20 and 15 per cent., and if that proposal were not adopted to vote for a modification of the original figures. You put the. question from the! Chair in such a form that honorable members had an opportunity of deciding first whether they would adopt the request, and then, if it were rejected, of deciding whether they would modify the original proposal, which would be a modification of the Senate's suggestion. I think that you studied the convenience of the Committee in putting every honorable member in a position first to give a straight vote on the question as to whether the Senate's suggestion should or should not be adopted, and then, if its . suggestion to reduce the .duty ' in the first column from 20 to 5 per cent, were rejected, to move the adoption of a rate between 5 per cent, and 20 per cent. That course gave honorable members a proper opportunity of expressing their minds. You will see, I think, that there are two courses open to us. One is to accept a request in its entirety, and the other is to accept something which is a modification of the request. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- There is no objection to that. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- I do npt wish any more than that. ' ' {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- But we have to put the modification against the original proposal. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- No.' Some honorable mem- ' bers might wish to vote on the question of leaving it as it is. {: .speaker-L1P} ##### Mr Wise: -- No matter what they maywish, that is the way in which it has to be done. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- On a former occasion the position was met fairly. Some honorable members wished to vote for the Senate's request to reduce the duty to 5 per cent. ; others wished to vote for a duty of 15 per cent. ; while others again wished to vote for the original duty of 20 per cent. The Committee was afforded an opportunity first to decide whether it would adopt the request, so that if it were rejected it would be open to any honorable member to move the adoption of any figure between 5 and 20 as a modification of the request. Those who wish to offer an opinion by their vote on the present request cannot do that if they are, compelled to choose between the request and the modification proposed. It will put them in a wrong position. They cannot express their views at all. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The whole object of our procedure is to elicit the opinion of the Committee. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- No occupant of the chair has been more anxious than you, sir, to give to the Committee the fullest opportunity of exercising its opinion. On the present occasion honorable members desire to choose between three alternatives - the original figures sent to the Senate, the Senate's suggestion, and a middle suggestion - but they cannot do that under the present motion. T do not wish to interfere at the present. time, because I have only just entered the chamber, but later on I shall take an opportunity of getting the point decided by the Speaker. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. Item 177. Electrical Machines, *&c. -* (c)Regulating, Starting, and Controlling Apparatus for all electrical purposes, including Distributing Boards and Switch Boards, except Telephone Switch Bo.ards, ad val. 20 per cent.' *Request.* - Leave out " Switch Boards " and insert . " Switchboards " ; make the paragraph free. Requested amendment, altering the wording of the paragraph, made. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne)proposed - >That the requested amendment, making the. paragraph free, be not made. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- According to your ruling, sir, if we are to secure arty duty betweenthe rate previously agreed to by this Committee, and the recommendation of the Senate, we must vote agaiinst admitting these articles free. That is precisely what we do not wantto do. I submit that the Constitution distinctly provides that we may either accept a request of the Senate or accept it with such modifications as we may deem fit to make. Themodifications which the Committee desire to make can be ascertained only after we have disagreed with the request of the Senate. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I have already ruled in a certain direction, and I must ask the honorable member either to move to disagree with my ruling or to proceed with the discussion of the item. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- I wish to point out a way in which the honorable member for Parramatta can overcome the difficulty which has been created without his being open to any charge of inconsistency. I suggest that he should move the insertion after the word " free " of the following words : " and on and after 1st May, 1908, 1 per cent." The division upon that proposal would be regarded as a test of whether or not the word "free" should be retained. If the proposal were not carried, it would then be open to any honorable member to move for the imposition of some other duty proportionate to the duty in the first column. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- As this, sir, is a matter or some importance, I do not think you will consider that I am taking an objectionablecourse - assuming that you adhere to your original ruling - when I ask you to refer to **Mr. Speaker** a question which, for greater accuracy, I have committed to writing. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- Under what standing order does the right honorable member propose to take action ? {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- I propose, with the consent of the Chairman, to refer this matter to **Mr. Speaker.** That course has been frequently adopted. I am sure that the Chairman will not take any party view of this matter. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- On a former occasion I wished to dissent from the Chairman's ruling, and tohave the matter referred to **Mr. Speaker,** but was not permitted to do so. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- If the. Chairman objects to refer the matter to **Mr. Speaker,** I shall abandon my proposal at once. But I ask him to allow the following point to be referred to **Mr. Speaker-** >Whether the question on item 177, paragraph C, should not be so put from the Chair that honorable members who wish to vote for the Senate's suggestion should,if that be negatived, have an opportunity of moving for a lower duty than that originally proposed by the House of Representatives. I think that that statement of the position covers the point involved. The decision of the Chairman would deny honorable members that opportunity. I understand from your ruling, sir, that if the Senate's suggestion be not accepted by the Committee, honorable members will have no opportunity of moving for a lower rate of duty than that originally agreed to, namely, 20 per cent. I want to refer to **Mr. Speaker** the question of whether the Committee should not be afforded such an opportunity. If the Committee does not accept the request of the Senate in its integrity, I think that honorable members should be free to move for its acceptance with a modification, which, in this instance, might be 10 per cent. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- I should like to ask whether the proposal of the right honorable member is in order, seeing that standing order 228 states - >If any. objection is taken to a rulingor decision of the Chairman of Committee such objection shall be stated at once in writing, and may forthwith be decided by the Committee, and the proceedings shall then be resumed where they were interrupted. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- " May " forthwith be decided. {: .speaker-L0K} ##### Mr Salmon: -- Exactly. I am not attempting to construe the word " may " as "shall." In view of the wording of that standing order, I desire to know, whether the proposal of the right honorable member for East Sydney is in order? {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- This is not the first occasion upon which a request has been made to refer, questions which have arisen in Committee to **Mr. Speaker** for decision. I re- gret to say that the adoption of that course has been acquiesced in by yourself, sir, and also by the honorable member for Laanecoorie and the honorable member 'for Riverina when they filled the office which you now hold. It seems to me, however, that **Mr. Speaker** is merely one member of the Committee, and as such can only express an opinion. Seeing' that a method of settling these questions has been provided by the. Standing Orders, it appears to me that the word " may " should be construed as " shall." {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Oh ! . {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- But in standing orders 231 and 232 the word "shall" is used. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- In spite of the interjection of the honorable member for Went worth, who does not understand this question, the right honorable member for East- Sydney knows that in Acts of Parliament the word " may " frequently means" shall." {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- The honorable member has himself said that requests have frequently been made to refer questions . arising in Committee to **Mr. Speaker.** Those requests would not have been made if the standing orderwere mandatory. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- Upon every occasion that guch questions, have been- referred to **Mr.** **Speaker** I have protested. I hope that the Chairman will adhere to his decision, even if it be overruled' by the Committee. I trust that he will not permit **Mr. Speaker** to decide this matter when the Committee is capable of deciding it for itself.If outstanding Orders do not give a proper direction in such cases they can be amended. I object to the Speaker of the House as the authority who referred the requests of the Senate to this Committee, subordinating the principle underlying the creation of the Committee, by Cominghere to direct it. The whole practice of the British Parliament depends upon the preservation of the distinction between proceedings in Committee and proceedings in the House, and for **Mr. Speaker** to come here and direct the Committee seems to me to be most improper. The Speaker and the Chairman must both be supreme in their own jurisdiction. In spite of precedents which have been established, owing to Chairmen being weak enough to give way, I hope that on the present occasionthe Chairman will adhere to his decision, and see that effect is given to the Standing Orders. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- I think that the position taken up by the honorable member for Corio is a most extraordinary one. I take it that we regard **Mr. Speaker** as the proper authority to interpret our Standing Orders. The Chairman of Committees is the Deputy Speaker. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- In Committee he is the Chairman, and not Deputy Speaker. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- I admit that. But the Chairman himself has frequently referred questions arising in Committee to **Mr. Speaker** for his ruling upon them. Consequently he has regarded **Mr. Speaker** as the proper authority to guide us in such matters. All that the leader of the Opposition proposes is that a similar practice shall be followed on the present occasion. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- This is purely a matter of procedure, and it is my desire that the best procedure for the conduct of business shall be adopted. At the same time, the proper course is for us to make our own Committee procedure. On a former occasion Iallowedmy decisionto go to the Speaker, who ruled against it, and thus the Chairman of Committees was brought into conflict with **Mr. Speaker,** which should not happen in any deliberative assembly. The practice is not allowed in the House of Commons. Standing order 228 says- >If any objection is taken to a ruling or decision of the Chairman of Committees,' such objection shall be stated at once in writing, and may forthwith be decided by the Committee; and the proceedings shall then be resumed where they were interrupted. And in the eleventh edition of May's *Parliamentary Practice,* page 285, it is stated - >Order in debate in a committee is enforced by the chairman, who is responsible for the conduct of business therein ; and from his decision no appeal should be made to the Speaker. That is very definite and clear. Passages in other works, to which I have not had time to refer, point out that it would be a bad thing to allow . a contrary practice to grow up, because of the probability of conflict between the opinions of Chairman and Speaker. Therefore, with all due respect to the right honorable member for East Sydney and the Committee, I must decline to allow my ruling on this or future occasions to go to the Speaker. Of course, if a motion dissenting from this ruling is carried, it will establish the precedent to be followed. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- If the requested amendment -making the item free is agreed to, there will be no occasion to raise a point of order, but if it is not agreed to, a point might be raised in connexion with an alternative proposition, which I think, sir, you would allow me to put to the Committee. {: #debate-14-s63 .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie .- To give honorable members who desire that the item shall be free an opportunity to make it so without stultifying themselves, I wish to move, as an amendment to the motion, of the Minister, the addition, after the word " free," of the words " and on and after 1st May, 1908, 2 per cent." The Minister asked the Committee not to make the amendment requested by the Senate ; but if the purely nominal duty which I propose is carried with a sufficient majority,, we can afterwards demand a recommittal, and have the item made free. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- There is no such rate as *i* per cent, in the Tariff. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr MAHON: -- I am aware of that, and have suggested that rate in this instance merely to fix a nominal duty, not because I am favorable to such a low duty, but solely to build a bridge to carry those who wish, - without appearing inconsistent, to make the item free. {: #debate-14-s64 .speaker-K99} ##### Mr JOHNSON:
Lang .- The difficulty in which I found myself when proposing a similar course crops up again in connexion with the honorable member's proposal. I should like to make the item free, but if that' cannot be done, I wish to vote for as low a duty as possible. If the honorable member's amendment were carried, we could not make the item free. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- I propose a nominal duty to give an opportunity for. a recommittal. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr JOHNSON: -- The honorable member's proposed amendment prevents us from voting to make the item free, unless the Treasurer agrees to a recommittal. {: #debate-14-s65 .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie .- The Minister has given no reason for placing a duty on such machines as meters, coming within this item. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The reason is that they can all be made here. I have just consulted the departmental officers on the point, and that is their deliberate statement. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- I am very much surprised to hear it. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I think that volt and ampere meters are affected, not by request 92, but by request 93, 94, or 97. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- I do not agree with the honorable member, though they may come within the- next loosely-worded provision. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- Meters are dealt with in item 178. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- Only gas meters. {: .speaker-K4I} ##### Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT -- Electrical and gas meters. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- If the Minister would tell us what machines are affected by the request, it would shorten the debate. If they are produced in the Commonwealth, I am prepared to vote for a duty on them. If the other articles which I have indicated, and which I believe are not made in the Commonwealth,0 are placed under a lower rate of duty, I am prepared to support the duty in this particular case, although 1 cannot see why there should be a higher duty than on the general item. {: #debate-14-s66 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- The difficulty that I am in with regard to the proposal .of the honorable member for Coolgardie is not that of the honorable member for Lang. I am not concerned with whether we have to justify ourselves for voting for a duty of 2^ per cent, or not. If we adopt a duty of 2 per cent., it will be a formal duty, and we shall be safeguarded. But is the position of the commercial community safeguarded? It would be rather an awkward thing for importing firms, if they had to pay 2J per cent, duty now, and another rate of duty a month hence. They do not know where they are when we are constantly changing the Tariff. What importers fear as much as the duty imposed is constant changes of duty, when they do not know how to arrange their prices. I suggest that the right honorable member for East Sydney should test the opinion of the Committee on his view of the procedure, and then, if he cannot carry his point, let us accept the proposal of the honorable member for Coolgardie as the only way out of the difficulty. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- I wish to ask you, sir, whether, in connexion with this item 177c, you would consider it to be a proper course to give an opportunity to the Committee, if the suggestion of the Senate to make the item free is negatived, to modify the duty which was originally proposed ? If you hold that there is no such opportunity, I shall proceed under the Standing Orders to put my objection. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- It will be better to wait until we have made a blank. Of course, the right honorable member always has an opportunity to dissent from my ruling. I remind the Committee that a general resolution has been carried as to when these duties shall commence. I suggest to the honorable member for Coolgardie that his proposal should be put as follows - to add the following modification: - "Omit free' and insert *'2½* per cent." The question then to be put would be, " That the words proposed to be added be so added." Amendment (by **Mr. Mahon)** proposed - >That the following modification be added : - "omit free," and insert"2½ per cent." {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -Would it not be bet'.er to put the question, " That the word ' free ' stand part of the item"? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- If I were to put the question that the word proposed to be left out stand part, it would preclude any other honorable member from moving an amendment if that question were resolved 'in the affirmative. For instance, the honorable member for Coolgardie desires that the duty shall be per cent. Some other honorable member may desire a duty of 5 or 10 per cent., as the case may be. If I were to put the question as the honorable member for Angas desires, and the Committee were to decide in the affirmative, no other honorable member would have an opportunity of moving an amendment. I put thequestion in the form stated so as to allow other honorable members to move amendments. {: .speaker-KCO} ##### Mr Glynn: -- I submit that if it were declared that the word "free" should stand, it would still be competent for an honor able member to move that on and after a certain date a certain duty should operate. Similarly, if the Committee negatived the word " free," we should still be able to do something else with the item. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- We have already" carried a general resolution to the effect that whatever duties are decided upon shall operate from a certain date. That general resolution covers all amendments. I think it would be inconvenient for the Committee to insert a number of different dates. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It occurs to me that there is another way of meeting the difficulty, andone which I think would be in order ; that is, to modify the wording of the question, and take a test vote at this stage as to whether the item should be free or not. I submit that it would be quite in order for me to move the omission of the word " not " from the question to be put from the Chair', in order to tesi the whole question, whilst leaving the rate of duty to be dealt with hereafter". The question to be put is that the request of the Senate be not made. I desire to move that the word. " not " be omitted from that question. {: .speaker-KLB} ##### Mr Mahon: -- That is a direct negative. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I know that it is, but it is a method constantly adopted where we desire to leave the question of the amount of duty open. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I cannot accept the honorable member's suggestion. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Before you rule definitely, sir- {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I have already ruled that the amendment desired to be moved by the honorable member for Parramatta would be a direct negative, and I think that it would not be wise to adopt, that procedure. {: #debate-14-s67 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- I wish to point out that the articles dealt with in the item under consideration are minor articles such as electric switches. Telephone switchboards and. other large articles are not dealt with under this item. The item as it reads rather leads one to suppose that the class of articles dealt with are important, but it is as well for the Committee to understand that they are really small things. {: #debate-14-s68 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It. seems to me that we can do practically nothing in regard to this matter except to follow the stereotyped proposal of the Treasurer. It appears to me that he is complete master of the situation. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I ought tobe. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- According to the ruling of the Chairman no room is left for the Committee to act as it desires. I submit that an amendment offering an alternative way of submitting the motion to the Committee must be in order. It has been so ruled by every Speaker from time immemorial. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- That procedure was allowed on the item relating to rock drills. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- That. was different. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- It is a procedure that is allowed in connexion with nearly every Bill. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Will the honorable member discuss the item or move that my ruling be disagreed with? {: #debate-14-s69 .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- On the merits of this question which have been somewhat overshadowed by the technical discussion which has taken place, I wish to make my position clear. I agree entirely with what the Treasurer has said with regard to the general character of the appliances covered by this paragraph of the item. As I understand it, regulating, starting and controlling apparatus for electrical purposes comprise very simple structural contrivances, such as small levers made of brass, or of blocks for insertion in holes. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- And marbles. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Quite so. A skilled mechanic can make such things out of brass or wood. They are easily made, and there is a very broad distinction between them and the articles coming under the next item. For that reason I shall vote with the Government. {: #debate-14-s70 .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX:
Kooyong -- Having regard to the complications that have arisen with respect to our power to modify a request of this kind, I wish, to say clearly that it is within my own knowledge that the majority of these appliances are made in the Commonwealth, and that I think the manufacturers of them are entitled to the protection of a duty of 20 per cent. One does not know into what false position one may be led by this cross voting, and I wish, therefore, to define my position. {: #debate-14-s71 .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS:
Dalley .- In view of the fact that we have carried a duty of 20 per cent, in respect of dynamo electric machines of 506 horse-power, showing thereby our belief that they can be and are being made in Australia, it is strange that there should be any doubt as to the capacity of our manufacturers to make these small appliances. A duty of 2½ per cent, would be merely for revenue and not for protective purposes. If we can make in Australia dynamo electric machines of 500 horse-power, and are prepared to encourage the industry by a duty of 20 per cent., surely we ought to be prepared to support a protectionist duty of 20 for the encouragementof those engaged in the manufacture of minor electrical appliances. Modification negatived. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. Item 177. Electrical Machines, &c. : - {: type="a" start="d"} 0. Electric Apparatus and Fittings consisting wholly or partly of metal n.e.i., including Switches, Fuses, and Lightning Arresters, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 10 per cent. *Request.* - Make paragraphd free. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed That the requested amendment be not made. Question put. The Committee divided. AYES: 32 NOES: 20 Majority ... ... 12 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Requested amendment not made. Item 177. Electrical Machines, &c. . . . Paragraph(g) Generators for direct coupling to Steam Turbines, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. *Request.* - Leave out the paragraph. {: #debate-14-s72 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- It was myintention, in certain circumstances, to move that the Senate's requested amendment in this case be made; but as the Committee has refused to make the amendments proposed by the Senate in requests Nos. 90 and pi, it is necessary that we should also refuse to make this requested amendment. Had the amendments in the Senate's requests Nos. 90 and 91 been made, I should Have moved that this requested amendment should also be made. In the circumstances, it is necessary that this paragraph should remain in the Tariff as it left this House. I move - >That the requested amendment be. not made. {: #debate-14-s73 .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie .- I understand that the position is that the Minister intended to agree to the deletion of paragraph g of item 177 if the amendments proposed by the Senate in their requests Nos. 90 and 91 had been made; but as they were not made, the honorable gentleman now proposes that the paragraph should stand, and that these generators for direct coupling to steam turbines should be dutiable at 5 per* cent, under the general Tariff, and free from the United Kingdom. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Yes. {: .speaker-JX9} ##### Mr FRAZER: -- Then I shall support the Government in this matter. {: #debate-14-s74 .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX:
Kooyong .- I wish to remind the Minister that the request we are now considering is more directly related to request No. 73, for the inclusion in item 160 of ".High-speed Reciprocating Engines coupled with Generators or Dynamo Electric Machines to be used in mines." I hope that the Minister is acting in this matter with the advice of the Department; because I do not wish what we have done in connexion with the Senate's request No. 73 to be interfered with in any way. The steam turbine is a highpressure engine, and we have agreed to include such machinery in item 160, paragraph a, at 5 per cent, under the general Tariff, and free from the United Kingdom. I am unable to say what relation this request has to requests Nos. 90 and 91. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The experts fill me that it is related to those requests. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- Does the Minister not see that it is more intimately related to request No. 73? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I believe it is related to that request also. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- I wish to have the honorable gentleman's assurance that what he now proposes will not interfere with the decision arrived at by the Committee in dealing with the Senate's request No. 73. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- It will not interfere with it. {: .speaker-KYT} ##### Mr KNOX: -- That is all the assurance I require. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. And on and after 29th November, 1907 - Item 178. Electrical and Gas Appliances, viz..... {: type="a" start="b"} 0. Gas Meters, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom),; free. *Request.* - Make the duties (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent. {: #debate-14-s75 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- This request is made in consequence of certain amendments which have already been agreed to in the Tariff. I move - >That the requested amendment be made. {: #debate-14-s76 .speaker-JSK} ##### Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC .- When item 178 was previously before the Committee, this question was threshed out, and the difference between gas and electric meters was made clear. In connexion with this request, I have received the following communication - >On behalf of my company, I herewith enclose notification from Glover and Co. that it is the intention of the Senate to recommend duty of 25 per cent, be placed on gas meters. As the directors of my company feel that the imposition of such a tax is grossly unfair and unjust, and a great handicap in the competition between gas and electricity, in view of the intention to admit electric meters free. I may here state that as far as we are concerned there are no meters of the class we are using, *i.e.,* cast-iron wet meters, made in the Colonies, and there does not seem any likelihood of their beinc made here even if a tax were imposed. That is the opinion of people getting their living at the business, and in the circumstances, we should have some explanation from the Minister of the proposed alteration of the duty from 5 per cent, and free to 25 and 20 per cent. According lo the information supplied to me, these meters cannot be made in Australia, and in the circumstances, the duties proposed must be regarded as revenue duties. They are otherwise objectionable, because they would apply not only to gas meters but also to water meters. The Committee should hesitate before it accepts the proposal made by the Treasurer. At any rate, honorable members on this side ought to insist on some reason for the jump from 5 to 25 per cent. -, and I am sure my point of view will be supported by others. {: #debate-14-s77 .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The Treasurer, will recollect that the original duty of 5 per cent, was agreed to without a division, and that the representative of the Government in another place recognised the arrangement that had been made here. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Not an arrangement. When I have an opportunity I shall explain why the duty- has been increased. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The r.:- -presentative of the Government in the Senate voted in support of' the arrangement made here, but the request was carried against him by one vote. If the Treasurer looks at the report of the discussion in another place he will find reference made to the arrangement arrived at in the House of Representatives; but I merely allude to this in passing. Electric and gas meters- are each used by large companies, municipalities, and small companies in country districts ; and I contend that the same duty should apply to both classes of meters. If it is urged that gas meters can be made here, while electric meters cannot, I point out that all that is done in the case of gas meters is to assemble the parts- here, and the same could, be done with electric meters: No matter whether there be a duty or not, the fitting of the gas meters will be carried, on in Australia, owing to the extra cost of sending them here in their made-up form. This fitting was carried on in New South Wales under a free-trade . policy, and also under a duty of 12 per cent., which applied to both meters and parts, because, as I have said, of the extra cost of carrying the completed meters, and the less risk of injury. In England, where the gas meters are patented and manufactured, the parts are manufactured- in some centre like London, and ' are fitted together in the towns where they are to be used. This is found to be the more economical plan, although the distances are short, because in London there is the elaborate and expensive machinery for making the parts. From the stand-point of equality, I contend that the same duty should apply to both classes of meters. The industry here, so far as it is an industry, has been in existence for years in Victoria and New South Wales; and although, as I remind honorable. members, the parts bear the same duty as the completed meters. This assembling of the . parts is carried on by the Melbourne and other metropolitan gas companies, and by the Australian agents of the manufacturers ; arid it will continue whether or not there be p. duty. A comparatively small number of made-up meters for some of the smaller gas companies are imported ; and they are all of one make. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- My- information is that two-thirds of the imported meters are brought here made up. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- I' think that information must have been supplied by some firm who desire a higher duty, because I know that the figure quoted is absolutely wrong. To Sydney, for instance, no gas meters are sent made up, and the fitting employs some sixty or seventy men. Why should those who use gas be treated differently from those who use the electric light, seeing that both systems of lighting are carried out by practically the same class of people? {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- On the honorable member's own statement, the duty will be largely inoperative, seeing that so few meters are imported made up. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The honorable member forgets that the parts are dutiable at the same rate as the meters. . » {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I am prepared to lower the duty on the parts to 5 per cent. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The honorable member is not putting electric and gas lighting on the same level. His interjection would be a very good answer to my remarks if electric meters or part's had also to pay 25 per cent., but they are admitted at 5 per cent, and free. When the question was raised here previously, the Minister at once agreed to make the duties on the two kinds of appliances the same. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- Would it not be unfair to charge only 5 per cent, on the made-up article, while charging 25 per cent, and 20 per cent, on the parts? {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- The " 5 per cent, and free " would apply in the" case of gas meters, as it does in the case of electric meters, to both the constructed article and the parts. I think I linow where the advocacy of this dutv came from. It is one that would affect Melbourne possibly more than Sydney. I think the movement to secure the duty came from one direction, because a different class of meter is used to a considerable extent in Sydney from that used in Melbourne. The dry meter is mostly used in Melbourne, and the wet meter in Sydney. What suits one manufacturer may not suit another. When there are two illuminants provided by practically the same class of people, in some cases big companies, in some cases small companies, and in some cases municipalities - there is far more gas than electricity provided by municipalities and small companies - there ought to be equal treatment. I am sure the Government do not wish to give preference to one illuminant over another. Electric meters are dutiable at 5 per cent, and free, and gas meters were so when the schedule left this Chamber. Either of them can be put together here if the parts are imported, but no exception has been made in the case of electric meters, and now it is proposed to levy a tax of 25 per cent, as against the one illuminant only. {: .speaker-L0P} ##### Mr Sampson: -- The Treasurer accepted 5 per cent, and free. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- Yes ; and it was admitted in the Senate that an ar- rangement had been made. That was admitted even by the opponents of it. They quite rightly did not consider themselves bound by it, but the Minister did, and voted for the item as it left here. The request was carried by one vote only in that Chamber, although the original duty was carried unanimously here. The Minister should reconsider his proposal to accept the request. It is an unnecessary tax, which for all purposes is merely a revenue tax against one particular form of illuminant. We should certainly do equal justice as f ar as we can as between people who are engaged in practically the same occupation - that of providing lighting in the community. The Treasurer should adhere to the decision that he arrived at before, that his own Ministerin the Senate supported, that was carried in this Chamber unanimously, and defeated elsewhere by one vote only. {: #debate-14-s78 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- Itrust that the Treasurer will adhere to his determination to accept the request. I, in common with many honorable members, feela certain amount of timidity in opposing anything which the honorable member for North Sydney advocates. But whilst he is a free-trader, I am a protectionist, and I am influenced by the fact that these articles can be manufactured here to a much greater extent than they are at present, while the Brassworkers' Association assure me that if gas meters continue to be manufactured here the brasswork connected with them can also be made here. Consequently, even the importation of the parts will be done away with. The outside portions of the meters" are made in Melbourne to a great extent. The machinery for cutting them is not as intricate as that used here for cutting and making tins. One company in Melbourne employs fifty-seven hands, and two other firms employ ten and five hands respectively in making gas meters. In New South Wales one firm employ seventy hands in making them. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Do they make them or put them together? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- They make them in the same sense as the honorable member for North Sydney says they are made in England. As is the case with other pieces of mechanism, certain firms apply themselves exclusively to the manufacture of certain portions. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- They have been and are manufacturing them under a duty, which is the same on the completed article as on the parts. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Although we cannot number those engaged in the industry by thousands, even the honorable member will admit that a fair number of men are employed. The increased duty should be agreed to, seeing that the question of the raisingof the price hardly comes into consideration, and that the continuance of the work here will give rise to other employment in the manufacture of parts that are not made here now. The mechanism of meters is precisely the same as that of penny-in-the-slot machines and other devices that are now imported. Those could all be made here, so that the industry is capable of very wide expansion. The industry of meter making in Australia has been growing, but, . in common with other industries, it has to meet competition which may be regarded from a commercial standpoint as fair, but which is nevertheless most injurious. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- Does not all that apply equally to electric meters? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I should like to see electric meters' manufactured here also, but unfortunately we have lost the opportunity to deal with that question. At this stage we . can introduce no new item, but can only deal ' with the Senate's requests. I hope that the honorable member for Dalley will piit up his umbrella on behalf of this' particular request. I believe it is in his electorate that gas meters are made for New South Wales. This is an industry which could be extended in many directions. Besides the companies I have named there are many other companies which are making gas meters, either wholly or partially- I recognise that the gas companies in small provincial towns may be opposed to this request, but I believe that in time they will see their way to put together jjas meters instead of importing them. In view of the possibility that this industry may grow in many directions, I trust that the Treasurer will adhere to his determination to accede to the request. {: #debate-14-s79 .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS:
Dalley -- **Mr. Chairman,** I do not know whether you noticed that during the last two or three days I have been faking a few draughts' of protection ; but I intend to sober up on this item. The honorable member for North Sydney has put the position in a way which is practically unanswerable. He has appealed, to the Committee for equality of treatment. The protectionists have put a dutv of 5 per cent, on electrical meters. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Evidently gas meters are not made in Dalley. {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -- They can be made in Dalley, because it has very competent artisans. The honorable member for North Sydney has made it very clear that the parts of these meters are assembled in Australia. If this request be acceded to the Committee will impose a tax upon the users of gas meters. It should be remembered that while the electric light supplying companies charge for the use of their meters, the gas-lighting companies supply free meters to their consumers, though, of course, they may make a bit afterwards by means of a big racing machine. 1 believe that I have a big racingmachine in my establishment. As a matter of. justice and equity we ought not to impose a serious tax upon the makers of gas, whether they be large companies or small companies. Why should we put the makers of electric lighten a better position than the makers of gas? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The honorable member does not think that the. gas companies pass on the duty ? {: .speaker-L17} ##### Mr WILKS: -- Not unless they instal a good racing machine in a man's house. No doubt if we imposed a very high duty they would pass it on to the consumer, or charge rent for the use of their meters. Originally the Treasurer proposed to admit gas meters at 5 per cent. . from foreign countries and free when imported from the United Kingdom.His own protectionist inclination did not lead him to go farther than that. I think that he, as a protectionist, must see that the claim made by the honorable member for North Sydney is irresistible. I ask him not to be a glutton in the case of this item, as he has been in the case of other items. He should accord equal treatment to the importers of both kinds of meters. I shall vote against the Senate's request. {: #debate-14-s80 .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter .- On behalf of the residents of country towns, I appeal to the Treasurer not to press his motion. He knows that in his electorate there are many country towns which would benefit from the establishment of gas companies. A high duty on gas meters would press most heavily, not on the wealthy gas companies in the cities, but on the small gas companies in country towns, and indirectly upon the consumers. . Whatever contributes to the happiness of the people of a town should be encouraged. If anything improves the appearance of a town and promotes the comfort of its inhabitants, it is the establishment of gas works and gas lighting. I also appeal to the Treasurer on behalf of the coal miners. He will realize that the more gas companies are established the more work will be given to coal miners. I also appeal to the honorable gentleman on behalf of the carters, the ironworkers, and the clerks. Seeing that originally he agreed that the duties on gas meters should be5 per cent, and free, I see no reason why we should accede to the Senate's request, and thereby impose an unnecessary hardship upon the people. Let us endeavour as far as possible to encourage a system of thrift, and no one can deny that a penny-in-the-slot gas meter is a savings bank on a small scale. {: #debate-14-s81 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I cannot support the Senate's request. This item deals with electrical and gas appliances, particularly with gas meters. Whilst it affects the large companies in the cities very closely, still it is the small country towns which will be affected very seriously if we agree to duties of 25 and 20 per cent, on gas meters. When this item was first proposed by the Treasurer, I received from the municipal council of Molong a communication, upon which I regret I cannot lay my hand at the present moment. They pointed out to me how adversely it would affect their interests and limit the consumption of their gas. They claimed that it would not only limit the consumption, as it would prevent a number of persons from using gas as they are now doing, but also increase the cost of the article to the consumers. The communication pointed out how the council would be very seriously affected by the duty inasmuch as the gas works carried a very heavy debt. I do not remember how the loan for their construction was raised, but the council is responsible for its repayment, and is paying interest out of a particular fund. {: .speaker-JSK} ##### Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC -- That applies to thousands of towns. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- I agree with my honorable friend that pretty well every country town which supplies gas to its citizens would be affected by the high duties requested by the Senate. 1 remind honorable members that not only Molong, but many other country towns are already heavily handicapped; inasmuch as their coal has to be carried for a considerable distance by railway. The nearest point from which the Molong council can procure its coal is Lithgow. To towns such as Forbes, which also has a municipal gasworks, the coal has to be carried for & very much greater distance. All this adds to the cost to the consumer, and yet we are now asked in the interests of a prospective industry which can attain only very small dimensions to place duties of 20 and 25 per cent, upon gas meters. I trust that the Committee will see the wisdom of disagreeing with the request of the Senate in this connexion. {: #debate-14-s82 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- It was my intention at first to move that the request of the Senate be not made. I had intended to submit a motion under which gas meters imported in parts would have been made dutiable at 5 per cent., and the completed meters at the higher rate. I find, however, that I should not be in order in- adopting that course, because the wording of the paragraph has not been altered by the Senate. I therefore ask leave to withdraw my motion with a view to submitting another. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment be not made. {: #debate-14-s83 .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr CROUCH:
Corio .- I desire to know whether I should be in order in moving to insert the words " and parts " after the word "meters." {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable, member would not be in order in adopting that course. {: #debate-14-s84 .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- There is considerable force in the contention of the Treasurer, who, however, is prevented by parliamentary practice from moving in the direction that he desires. But the motion which he has now submitted will at least place him in the position of being able to negotiate with the Senate in respect of this item at a later stage. {: #debate-14-s85 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- At the present time gas meters and the parts thereof, are admitted at the same' rate of duty. What I desired to do was to make the parts dutiable at 5 per cent., and to levy the duty requested by the Senate upon the completed meters. I cannot do that, however, because the wording of the paragraph has not been amended. My hands are therefore tied. If, however, I did not move to disagree with the request of the Senate, the same duty would continue to be levied upon the meter parts that is charged upon the completed meters. That would be a disadvantage, because it would prevent the assembling of the parts from being undertaken locally. {: #debate-14-s86 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- I think we have to admit that a duty of 25 per cent, upon meter parts would represent nothing like 25 per cent, upon the value of the completed meter. The Senate has requested a duty of 25 per cent, upon gas meters under (he general Tariff and of 20 per cent, under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. I think that we might modify that request by admitting gas meter parts at 5 per cent, under the general Tariff and by making them free under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member would not be in order in adopting that course. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I am sorry, because I feel that the effect of the Treasurer's proposal will be to displace a large number of workmen. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- Oh, no. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- As a matter of fact, the only work which will be done in the Commonwealth will be that of repairing the meters which are at present in use. As a protectionist I must enter my protest against allowing this question to go by the board. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Let it go. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- If the right honorable gentleman thoughtthat fifty or sixty men in his constituency would be thrown out of work by the making of the item free, he would view the matter in a different light. I am of opinion that the making of meters will lead to the manufacture of other machines of a similar character, and I am sorry that the Committee will not give protection to the industry. {: .speaker-KW6} ##### Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 -- Employment, will not be decreased by leaving the duty in the general Tariff at 5 per cent., and allowing importations from the United Kingdom to come in free. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr Liddell: -- In New Zealand both gas and electric meters have been placed on the free list, although the old duty was 10 per cent., and, on a revision of the Tariff, a rate of 20 per cent, was proposed. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. Requested amendment, inserting new paragraph bb in item 178 (Electrical and Gas Appliances) not made. Item 178. Electrical . and Gas Appliances, viz. :. - .... {: type="a" start="c"} 0. N.E.I., ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 10 per cent. *Request.* - Make the duty (General Tariff), 17½percent. Motion (by **Sir William** Lyne) proposed - >That the requested amendment be made. {: #debate-14-s87 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- What is the reason for this small increase of duty ? The importations under this item cannot be very great, so that the increase of' duty is notlikely to affect the revenue. It is hardly intelligent to vote for something which we do not understand. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- The honorable member is using a pump on a well which has no water in it. The Minister cannot give an explanation, so what is the use of asking for one. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- It would appear- without an explanation to the contrary - thai the Senate has made the request . out of pure captiousness. A rate of 17½ per cent, will be particularly hard to apply. I could understand the Minister asking the Committee to agree to increases of 40, 50, or even 100 per cent. ; but why should he bother about an increase of 2½ per cent. ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I take all I can get. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- The Committee is much in the position of the prize-fighter, who takes all he gets. The Senate makes this little punch of 2½ per cent., and we take it, just as we have taken harder punches. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- The alteration Is in accordance with my desires, and with those of. protectionists generally. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- If the Minister assures us that the alteration will give employment to so many more thousands of men, women, or children, I shall be willing to let it go. Surely he will not be so unreasonable as to give no explanation. {: .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr Reid: -- He does not know why the Senate made the request. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY: -- Certainly no member of the Committee can interpret the Senate's action. I ask the honorable member for Darwin, who, as a representative of a constituency named after the author of the *Origin of Species,* may know what is in the Minister's mind, why the requested amendment is to be made. - I am drawing attention to this matter, not because the request is in itself of any moment, but to show how ridiculously the Committee is., behaving. Anything that the Senate chooses to ask for is granted with or without reaspn. No reason is given in this case by the Minister, simply because he knows that honorable members wish to get into recess and get away from their work, and that they are willing to knuckle down to the Senate every day in the week. I do not blame the Minister very much for not giving reasons in this instance, because no explanation can be given. Very often he is unable to give explanations with regard to these matters. I say so advisedly. {: #debate-14-s88 .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter .- I also should like to know why this extra 2½ per cent. is to be granted. Honorable members opposite are clamouring for a protectionist Tariff. Do they mean to say that they are satisfied with an increase of 2½ percent, in the duty ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- We have no power to increase it further. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- Why should another place be satisfied with so small an increase? Is it because a manufacturer of incandescent lamp wanted a duty of 50 per cent. ? I am entirely in the dark in this matter. What is the value of the imports under this heading, and what are the articles included under it? I do not think that the Committee is aware of what they are. In order to afford honorable members information I may point out that another place was informed that the item includes such articles as - primary batteries, cable clips and - hangers, lightning conductors, electrolytic apparatus, connecters, binding screws, terminals, electric fire alarms, drop shutters (call indicators, annunciators), igniters and spark plugs, electro, static machines, electro-medical apparatus, medical batteries and thermostats. Surely an increase of 2½ per cent, cannot be satisfactory to protectionists. The Committee is not being treated fairly, in being denied information by the Minister. {: #debate-14-s89 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- I again invite the attention of honorable members to the item.. The duty suggested by the Senate is 17½ per cent, general Tariff. The duty which this House adopted was 15 per cent., with a duty of 10 per cent, on goods from the United Kingdom. The 10 per cent, duty stands. So that the Minister is really giving Great Britain an extra preference of 2½ per cent. On. account of the glorious Imperialism ofthe honorable gentleman, I think we can afford to let the item pass ! Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Item1 80. Rails, Fish-plates, Fish-bolts, Tie Plates and Rods, Switches, Points, Crossings and Intersections for Railways and Tramways, ad val. (General Tariff), 12½ per cent. ; and on and after 30th November, 1907, 15 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 12½$ per cent. ; and on and after 30th November, 1907, 10 per cent. *Request.* - Insert after the word " Intersections" the words "also Steel Sleepers." {: #debate-14-s90 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- I move - >That the requested amendment be not made. I have been making inquiries, and I find that preparations have been made to manufacture steel sleepers at Lithgow. I had an interview with the owner of the works the other day, and he informed me that he is putting up plant for the purpose. I was inclined to agree with the Senate's request, but if steel sleeper's can be madehere surely we should give an opportunity for their manufacture. {: #debate-14-s91 .speaker-KGZ} ##### Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle .- remind the Committee that in the northern part of Australia it is impossible to build railways without steel sleepers. We have no hope of opening up that part of the country without them. The Pine Creek Railway is made with steel sleepers. Many honorable members who have been in the Northern Territory know how bad the white ants are there. Steel sleepers must be used, because white ants eat the wooden ones. The duty covering steel rails is quite high enough for steel sleepers also. It is only reasonable that the sleepers should be included in this item at a lower rate of duty. I shall vote against the Minister's motion. {: #debate-14-s92 .speaker-F4P} ##### Mr REID:
East Sydney -- I think that the proposal of the Treasurer is an inconsistent one. Why should steel sleeriers be at a different rate of duty from steel rails? If steel sleepers are to be at 30 per cent., steel rails ought to be at the same rate. I think that the amendment requested by the Senate is a proper one, because rails and sleepers are both goods of the same description. To draw a line between rails and sleepers seems to me to be ridiculous, and to make a difference of 100 per cent, between the duties on them is no- justifiable. Question - That the requested amendment be not made - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 23 NOES: 21 Majority ... ... 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Requested amendment not made. Item 181: Iron Pipes, Cast and Wrought, n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; and on and after 30th November, 1907, per ton, 40s.; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent. ; and on and after 30th November, 1907, per ton, 30s. *Request.-* After the letters "n.e.i." insert " and cast-iron fittings for pipes." Make the duty (United Kingdom), 35s. per ton. {: #debate-14-s93 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- As the consideration of this 'request may occupy our attention for some time, I think that the Treasurer might well consent at this stage to report progress. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- No ; let us get on. {: #debate-14-s94 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- It is all very well for honorable members to say " Go on," but I should like a further opportunity to consider this request. . {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr Liddell: -- To indulge in a little more lobbying? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- No; I think that I could carry my proposal in regard to this request to-night ; I am not quite sure that we ought to accept the request, and I am therefore agreeable to progress being reported. Progress reported. House adjourned at 10.49p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 30 April 1908, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1908/19080430_reps_3_45/>.