House of Representatives
7 April 1908

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- PAPUA
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH MINT
QUESTION
- FEDERAL CAPITAL SITE
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN MEN OF LETTERS FUND
QUESTION
- IMMIGRATION
QUESTION
- ADELAIDE CUSTOMS FRAUDS
CLOSE OF THE SESSION
QUESTION
- VOIDED ELECTIONS
PAPER
QUESTION
- COMMUNICATION WITH FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS
QUESTION
- SUEZ CANAL DUES
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES
APPROPRIATION BILL

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 10177

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Telephone Attendants’ Ornaments - Cabinet Committee of Inquiry - Classification of Post OfficesTelephone Bureaux and Letter Receivers.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

– In view of the statements in today’s Age about the grievance of female telephone attendants, who complain that they are not allowed to wear jewellery, nor certain styles ofheaddress, I wish to know if the PostmasterGeneral is aware that a well ornamented head is a woman’s crown of glory ? Does he think it his duty to allow interference with the rights of women because they have to work for their living?

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– My officers report that -

Bangles, loose sleeves, lace trimmings in sleeves and gloves are at all times liable to become entangled in apparatus and cause trouble. Attendants should therefore not be allowed to jeopardize the efficiency of the service by wearingthem.

In Sydney Central, the only New South Wales exchange in which female attendants are employed, the practice is not allowed, and. all members of the female staff, monitors included, are compelled to wear closely-fitting sleeves from elbow to wrist.

Complaint was recently made, through the press, of continued interruptions and disconnections at Windsor Exchange, and upon investigation it was found, in addition to other causes, that attendants were wearing bangles, which struck the switching keys, and there is no doubt that a considerable number of disconnexions were caused thereby.

page 10178

QUESTION

PAPUA

New Administrator - Treasurer

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– According to this morning’s Age -

Speaking with a thorough knowledge of the present position of affairs in Papua, the Bishop, in the course of conversation yesterday, remarked that it was unfortunately the fact that the white population there is practically divided into two camps, and the aspirants for the important position shortly to be filled are theacknowledged heads of these camps. Should either succeed in getting the appointment the cleavage of parties would most probably become still more marked, and however unjust it might be there would always be the suspicion of partisanship in the decision of. matters in which the two camps weredeeply interested. What is wanted, therefore, is a strong man who would have no local prejudices, and who would not from the start of his administration haveto overcome the feeling that he was a partisan, but who might by tact and firmness be able to reconcile the differences which now exist, and which, if not removed, might easily operate to the detriment of the Commonwealth possession.

Will the Prime Minister take steps to immediately appoint as Administrator some one new to the service, possessing the requisite knowledge and ability ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– It is difficult to understand. His Lordship’s allusion, because the names most frequently mentioned in the press of late are not those of the head’s of opposing camps. There were, formerly, two camps in Papua, but one of them has practically disappeared from the Administration. In my opinion, it is necessary that the charges which have been made shall be finally dealt with before any appointment is decided upon.

Mr FRAZER:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Does the Prime Minister think that a new Administrator will be appointed before the prorogation of Parliament ?

Mr DEAKIN:

– No; unless our anticipation of the date of the prorogation is wrong. The papers which were transmitted to Papua a week or ten days since will not, in the ordinary course, be returned to us for more than two. months.

Later -

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice -

Does the Government intend to appoint a permanent Treasurer for Papua?
Is Mr. H. W. Champion an applicant for the position?
Is this the officer who was censured by the Royal Commission on. Papua for admitted disregard of instructions’ and “ rudeness and hasty action “ towards his superior officer ?
Does the Government agree with the Royal Commissioners that the chief of the Treasury should be a “ thoroughly competent man,” one possessing “ not only a sound knowledge of finance, but who has had good training and experience in approved methods of Treasury bookkeeping and Customs work “ ?
Is it considered that Mr. Champion possesses these qualifications in larger measurethan officers in the Commonwealth service who are available for the position at an adequate salary?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

Yes.
Yes.
Mr. Champion apologised for “rudeness and hasty action,” which, according to the Royal Commission, were “fitly described as unprecedented “ - he was referred to as a” competent officer for audit work.”
Mr. Champion is at present Acting Treasurer, applications for the Treasurership having been invited, and nopersons possessing the qualifications mentioned having applied. .
The salary offered was£500. No applicant superior to Mr. Champion was a candidate for the post. Mr. Whitton, Chief Clerk of the Auditor-General’s office, is shortly to make an inspection of the Papuan Treasury, and to advise as to its future management.

page 10178

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH MINT

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Referring to a. paragraph in to-day’s newspapers, does not the Prime Minister think that if anything should be established in the Federal Capital it is the Commonwealth Mint? Untilthe Federal Capital is established, cannot arrangements be made for the Imperial authorities to strike our coinage at a certain Tate of mintage, as is done for other parts of the Empire?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– We have reached, or are about to reach, a satisfactory arrangement, which will be made known to the House as soon as possible.

Mr BOWDEN:

– Does not the Prime Minister think that the Mint should properly be established in the Federal Capital ?

Mr Austin Chapman:

– And also the Small Arms factory?

Mr DEAKIN:

– The Federal Capital will be the proper place in which to centre all Federal enterprises that can be carried on there with advantage. It ought to include most of them; but I have not a sufficient knowledge of the. facts relating to the establishment of the Mint to give a definite answer to the honorable member’s question.

page 10179

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL SITE

Meeting of New South Wales Representatives - Selection of Site

Mr CROUCH:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– As a meeting of New South Wales representatives has been convened by one of his Ministers to consider the Capital Site question, will the Prime Minister see that meetings of the representatives of the other States shall be similarly convened, so that this purely Federal question may be decided on State lines ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The new Committee charged with the protection of the rights of Parliament must first inform me as to the penalties which can be inflicted on any representative refusing to obey such a summons.

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether, in the event of the word “ Dalgety “ being deleted from the Seat of Government Bill, to be dealt with, I understand, on Wednesday, the House will have an opportunity to go right on, and -make whatever selection it desires ?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I stated last week that in the event of such a contingency we should at once commence to deal de novo with the selection ofa site.

Mr J H Catts:

– The same day ?

Mr DEAKIN:

– Why not?

page 10179

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN MEN OF LETTERS FUND

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I understand that a Committee is to be appointed for the disbursement of the£500 voted by Parliament for the relief of Australian men of letters. Can the Prime Minister say when that Committee will be appointed, and when distributions will be made? Applications for relief have already been sent in.

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– I hope that the Committee will be appointed next week, and will at once enter upon its duties.

page 10179

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION

Views of the Victorian Premier and the Honorable Member for Flinders - Available Land - Commonwealth Control of Land and Railways.

Mr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– As the Premier of Victoria is considered one of the best and most up-to-date Premiers which this State has had, I wish todirect the attention of the Prime Minister to the following quotation, appearing in a leading article in yesterday’s Age, of remarks made by him on the subject of immigration -

We must provide homes for those we bring here, and we must find land for our own people first. There are 200 applicants for every piece of land we have to offer. Before we ask people from England to take up land, we must provide land for the sons of our own pioneers, who are leaving us because they cannot find suitable homes amongst us.

My impression is that I have heard similar remarks from the lips of the Prime Minister, and I desire to ask him if he is in unisonwith the Premier of Victoria on this subject ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– In a letter with which the Premier of Victoria has recently favored me, he enters into the question with great fulness, explaining his attitude more clearly than in the expressions just read, with which, so far as they go, I concur.

Mr CROUCH:

-In reference to the immigration proposals made last week by the honorable member for Flinders, who, I understand, ingenuously offered to allow the Government to make use of his new ideas - which, by the way, are very difficult to discover - I desire to know whether the Prime Minister will cause the honorable member’s proposals to be printed, with the new ideas appearing in block type.

Mr DEAKIN:

– When the question is again before us, I can avail myself of the opportunity to consult with my honorable friend the honorable member for Flinders.

Later -

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether it is true that the Victorian Government has available for immigrants only some 15,000 acres of land of doubtful quality?
Is it not also true that hundreds of Victorians are at present leaving the State because of the inability of the Victorian Government to provide them with land ?
Is there not a scarcity of land for intending settlers in the majority of the States of the Commonwealth ?
In view of the fact that the Governments of several of the States are unable to find suitable land for their own people, does he not think that, in order to develop his immigration policy, steps should be taken to amend the Constitution, so as to give the Commonwealth Parliament control of the land and railways of Australia.

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answerto the honorable member’s questions is - 1, 2, 3, and 4. I hope to lay on the table at an early date a letter from the Premier of Victoria, in which the lands available and about to be made available are set out in detail. Under the circumstances, I invite the honorable member to accept this as a sufficient reply for the time being to the first two questions. The third will be answered by letters from the Premiers of the other States. In reply to No. 4, the whole of the steps proposed to be taken to secure immigration will be dealt with in connexion with the next Estimates.

page 10180

QUESTION

ADELAIDE CUSTOMS FRAUDS

Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– It is stated in the press that Messrs. Harris, Scarfe and Company have been punished for eight contraventions of the Customs Act, there being four complaints of omission of charges from entry, and misdescription of goods, two of understatement of quantity for duty, and one of undervaluation of goods. The fines imposed total£25. Are these contraventions part of the seventeen charges which it was understood would be placed before the Law Courts ? Does the Minister of Trade and Customs not think it a travesty of justice to impose a penalty of£25 for offences of such enormity, and so many ?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– I shall be glad to give full particulars to-morrow. I understand that no fraud was imputed, and that the fines inflicted were those usually imposed.

Mr Hutchison:

– Are the cases in question part of the seventeen charges?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– I am not clear on that point.

page 10180

CLOSE OF THE SESSION

Mr JOHNSON:

– Has the Cabinet yet determined when the present session shall come to a close; or can the Prime Minister give the House an approximate idea, so that honorable members may be enabled to make their arrangements accordingly.

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– Ifour honorable friends of the Opposition will assist us to pass the small number of measures we are asking, we shall at once prorogue.

page 10180

QUESTION

VOIDED ELECTIONS

Expenses of Candidates

Mr CHANTER:

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question relating to the Additional Estimates in which provision is made for a claim by the honorable member for Echuca to be reimbursed£199, expenses incurred by him in connexion with an election for his constituency which was voided, owing to the alleged default of electoral officials. I notice that no provision is made for the expenses incurred in connexion with the same election by Mr. Thomas Kennedy, the ex-member for Echuca.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is clearly asking a question which should be put when the Additional Estimates are under consideration.To allow it to be asked now would be to anticipate the discussion of those Estimates.

Mr CHANTER:

– I intended to concludeby asking the Prime Minister whether he would consider the desirableness of making provisionon the Estimates for the expenses incurred by Mr. Kennedy.

Mr SPEAKER:

– That question may be answered.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910

– The matter relates to the Treasury. The reason no provision is made in the Additional Estimates for the claims of other candidates is that when they were framed I had not received full and complete statements of claim in respect of them. No detailed application had been received from Mr. Kennedy. This morning, however, I received three applications, including one from that gentleman, and after consultation with the Prime Minister I have decided to bring in ashort Bill covering these claims immediately after the Additional Estimates have been disposed of. I am obtaining the particulars as rapidly as possible.

Mr Chanter:

– There will be further Additional Estimates?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– Only to meet the claims of those who have suffered loss by default of returning officers at various elections.

page 10181

PAPER

Mr. HUME COOK laid upon the table the following paper -

Lands Acquisition Act - Grant ofRight of Carriage Way over portion of the road of access to the battery site at Mount Nelson, Tasmania.

page 10181

QUESTION

COMMUNICATION WITH FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS

Mr CROUCH:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether the right has been claimed by the Canadian Government, and granted by the London Government, for the Governor-General of Canada to communicate directly with theUnited States, French, and other Governments on subjects of mutual interest?
Is not such a power included in section 51 (29) of the Australian Constitution Act?
Is there any good reason why, in face of the delay of the Colonial Office re the visit of the American Fleet, the right of direct communication with the American Government should not be maintained ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : - .

Yes, on special subjects of mutual interest.
The boundaries of the sub-section would be difficult to define.
I know of no delay on the part of the Colonial Office in connexion with the visit of the Fleet. Some confidentialcommunications have already been exchanged with the ConsulGeneral for the United States.

page 10181

QUESTION

SUEZ CANAL DUES

Mr KNOX:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether he has seen the report that the British Government has already received back the whole of the capital originally invested by it in Suez Canal shares, together with 3½ per cent. interest thereon for the whole time, and in addition thereto has received a further sum amounting to£7,654,000 which has been made in profits on the undertaking?
Will he be good enough to say what representations he has made to the British Government in this regard with a view to securing some reduction on the existing heavy Canal dues, which considerably increase the charges upon Commonwealth exports and imports?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes.
It has been urged that the time has arrived for the reduction of rates. When communications now on route have reached their destination, copies of the papers will be laid before Parliament.

page 10181

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

In Committee of Supply (Consideration resumed from 3rd April, vide page 10177) :

Department of Postmaster-General

Division 189(Central Staff),£10,373, upon which Mr. Frazer had moved -

That the item, “ Secretary,£1,000,” be reduced by£1.

Mr REID:
East Sydney

.- The amendment which has been moved will enable my remarks to take a wider range than would otherwise have been open to me. The item relates to the permanent head of the Post and Telegraph Department, and we know that a great deal depends upon the manner in which his duties are discharged. I have considered very seriously the proposals which the Government have made in order to bring this Department into a better state of efficiency, and the selection of a Committee composed of three Ministers seems to me a very extraordinary method of endeavouring to elicit the truth. In the first place, this Committee will sit in judgment, either upon the. present PostmasterGeneral, who is a member of the Committee, or the late Postmaster-General. Both of these honorable gentlemen have been in charge of the Department for two or three years, to say nothing of previous periods ; and it seems to me extraordinary that an inquiry, which is intended to be thoroughand impartial, should be conducted by gentlemen who will have to sit in judgment on their colleagues. How can we expect, under these circumstances, a thorough investigation of abuses in the Department ?

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not think that the right honorable gentleman is quite correct ; the inquiry is more as to the organization of the Department.

Mr REID:

-But it is in regard to the organization that complaint arises. No one would impute to any Postmaster-General any desire but to do the best for the Department. I am happy to say of all Ministers who have occupied office in the Commonwealth Government, that there is not one who has not been possessed by the most honorable desire to discharge his duties to the best of his ability. No personal question, I am sure, can arise in connexion with either the late PostmasterGeneral, the present Postmaster-General, or any preceding Postmaster-General ; but the public require something more than honorable intentions. What is desired is efficient administration; and there is not a Department, whether in the State or the Federal sphere, which is in a state of greater chaos, or which is giving less satisfaction to the public, than the Department of the Postmaster-General.

Mr Storrer:

– A good deal of that is caused through the Public Service Commissioner.

Mr REID:

– I have no desire to impute blame to any one, nor do I think the honorable member has any such desire ; but the House and the public look for a proper inquiry in order to ascertain who is really at fault: There is no desire to prejudge ; we begin with the feeling that the Department is ina grossly disorganized condition ; and, without imputing any blame, we desire to know the cause of the disorganization. As I have already said, it seems to me an extraordinary way of probing these matters, to appoint, as a Committee, three members of the Cabinet, who connot be expected, in the course of human nature - without any imputation against their integrity - to investigate in the same fearless way that some disinterested person would be able to do. The PostmasterGeneral is just as much involved in this inquiry as any officer in the Department. He is the head-centre of the whole; and his conduct is just as much a subject of inquiry as is the conduct of the humblest officer. What would be said, for instance, if any member of the Committee were in close relationship to the Secretary to the Department? We find, however, that the highest officer of all, on whom the whole burden of responsibility rests, is to be judged in a sort of Cabinet council by his own colleagues. The very Minister who is at the head of the Department, and whose conduct must be the subject of inquiry, is one of the persons chosen to make the investigation ; and in that respect we have a comicality that we should not expect to find outside the pages of Gilbert and Sullivan. There are complaints about the management of the Postmaster-General ; and yet that honorable gentleman is deputed to inquire into the complaints ; the person who is himself accused of mismanagement - nothing worse than errors of judgment, or, perhaps, want of capacity - is to be one of the judges ; and how can we expect the public to be satisfied with such an inquiry? I cannot, at the present stage, refer to the Additional Estimates in detail ; but everything that hasbeen said about sweating in the Department, and about the miserable salaries paid, is justi fied by these Estimates. An enormous number of new officers are found to be necessary.

Mr Mauger:

– Does that not show that we are taking the first step to reform?

Mr REID:

– Does it not show that the officers of the Department have been sweated in the past? And, further, in spite of the fact that this large number of new officers are to be appointed, thousands of pounds are placed on the Additional Estimates to provide temporary assistance. What does that mean ? It means that the Department is escaping the necessity of properly manning and equipping the branches, by engaging a number of employés who are not on the regular staff.

Mr Chanter:

– A number of the Sydney staff are working from six in the morning until ten at night.

Mr REID:

– Without going into details, I may point out that there is a sum of£20,000on the Additional Estimates for further assistance in the case of New South Wales. This sum is in addition to the annual Estimates, and can only refer to the three months of April, May, and June of this year.

Mr Mauger:

– That is really to make up for what was struck off’ the main Estimates.

Mr REID:

– I do not know by whom any votes were struck off the main Estimates ; the fact that the money is provided on the Additional Estimates shows that it has to be spent in the three months. If we multiply this£20,000 by four, we have£80,000 which ought to have been spent in New South Wales alone in carrying on this service in a state of efficiency without overworking the men or cutting down salaries. This proposed vote is in itself a revelation, and the most damning proof of all that has been said about the disorganization in the Department. Can we expect Ministers to conduct a fearless inquiry into their own conduct and their own responsibilities? Personally, I have no such expectation. Just consider the magnitude of the responsibility that rests on the Postmaster- General. In my opinion, that Minister has greater pressure on him, in the way of actual work and responsibility, than any other member of the Government. Of course, when a Tariff is under consideration, the Minister of Trade and Customs has to bear an enormous strain ; but that can be regarded as a mere passing emergency. Taking the Departments in their normal state, there is not one in which the Minister has more to do than has the Postmaster-General. Indeed, there is. work in the Post and Telegraph Department for, perhaps, two Ministers ; and how is it possible for the PostmasterGeneral to act on this inquiry, which will involve enormous labour and research, and, probably, visits to other parts of the Commonwealth. How can’ he properly perform his departmental duties while he is engaged in a roving commission ? If the Postmaster-General were the ablest and most industrious man in the world, and giving him credit for all the diligence and ability he may possess, it would be physically and. intellectually impossible for him to carry on the every-day work of this enormous Department all over Australia, and at the same time act as a capable and efficient president of the proposed’ inquiry. .Surely in these matters we must act with some dim perception of business commonsense? The mere fact that we are a Parliament surely ought not to divorce us from considerations of ordinary prudence. What man who had an enormous business concern on his shoulders would dream of taking on some ‘.other enormous business, when his own concerns were more than enough to absorb all his energies and abilities? The head of a business, if anything was wrong, and he himself could not leave the helm, would not leave it to undertake inquiries in various branches. He would prefer to exercise his own judgment upon investigations made by others, and he would desire to have them made as thoroughly and as fearlessly as possible. Suppose a report from the Committee comes before this House. The Postmaster-General cannot be expected to sit in judgment on his own report. What we want from the Postmaster-General is that - when a report is presented to the Government, and to Parliament, the honorable gentleman should have his head clear and free from’ any concern but the investigation itself, and should be able to give the Government the ‘best advice on the report which has come before him. ‘ But with the preparation of it he should have nothing whatever to do. > His- function is a much higher one. The function of the Minister and that of the Government is a much higher one than that of investigation, of going from one place to another, investigating alleged abuses, and examining clerks, and hearing what the officers of the Department have to say. That is a most important duty it is true ; but what will be the position of a clerk In the presence of the Minister? Does the honorable gentleman put an officer of his Department in a fair position when that officer has his Minister sitting over him? If his evidence is unpleasant to the Minister, if instead of saying smooth .and pleasant things, he has to say, in the course of his duty, strong and rough things about the way the Department is administered, ana about injustices which have occurred, how can he be expected to do so before the Minister, who is sitting in judgment over him ? How can he give his evidence in the way in which we should like him to give it ? Every word said in commendation of the Department is a tribute to the Minister, every word of criticism is a criticism of Ministers who have had charge of the Department. ‘ Is it not enough to ask an officer to criticise bis superiors,” without having the Minister sitting in judgment upon him? Is not that enough, I ask? I wish to enter, on behalf of the Post and Telegraph officers, and the telephone attendants, of all ranks, high and low, my most indignant protest against putting them in the hands of a Ministerial coterie. They should be placed in the hands of some independent, fearless tribunal, which would have nothing to do with the Department. Instead of that, they are to be brought in touch with the Minister, at a time when they should be most fearless, and when they should have some protection behind them in directing attention to. things which point to inefficiency of administration and to neglect. I do not anticipate any good whatever from an inquiry so conducted. I quite agree that the Ministry are in a difficulty in this matter. Any Ministry is in such a position when there are imputations against the efficiency of a Department. Every Ministry is necessarily put in a position of difficulty then. If the power were proposed to be taken out of the hands of a Minister to deal with a Department - say by a Com- mittee of this House - I could quite understand the Ministry saying, “ We are responsible to Parliament ; if you want to set up a Committee an judgment upon us in the person of our Postmaster-General, we decline to occupy such a position.” But in this case that has not been done. The House has not asked the Government to accept any position of indignity in any shape or form. The Government themselves have clone this. They have themselves considered it necessary to institute some authoritative inquiry. I say that if the Government came to the conclusion that an inquiry was necessary - that there were things that required to be probed and examined and reported upon - the next duty of the Ministry was to appoint some competent, disinterested, and impartial body to inquire into those matters, and to report upon them. But instead of the legitimate demands of the public being satisfied, instead of this House being guided in the way that it wanted guiding in dealing with these matters, we have had a Committee appointed which is bound to fail, because there is not the root idea of confidence and impartiality in the tribunal before whom the men upon whose testimony we rely will appear. Every one of these officers who appears, voicing the dissatisfaction and discontent of the Service, complaining of injustice, complaining of wrong, complaining of neglect, complaining of miserable administration in this business of the Post Office, will be himself sat injudgment upon by the Minister who conducts that Department. That is a very awkward position to put any man in. Instead of encouraging men to come and give us the benefit of their real honest knowledge and experience, the Ministry have appointed a Committee which will destroy the possibility of our obtaining the testimony we wish to obtain.

Mr Mauger:

– There is not the faintest fear of any such thing happening.

Mr REID:

– No; in the heavenly region in which my honorable friend lives, it is impossible for any man to get a drink ! But, unfortunately, heavenly as are his ideas, men have some experience of public affairs. I suppose that I have had, probably, a greater knowledge of the Public Service than any member of this House, because I was not only a. Minister for many years, but I also had the honour of being a member of the Public Service in New South Wales for, I think, a period of fourteen years.

Mr Fairbairn:

– Was the honorable gentleman a member of the Post and Telegraph Service?

Mr REID:

– No; I was not there. I had a softer billet than any billet in the Post and Telegraph Department seemsto be. In fact, it was so soft that. I could not stick to it; I had to leave it. What I say about bringing members of the Public Service before a Committee such as this is, that if they are expected to make the freest and fullest exposure of any irregularities in their Department, and of any shortcomings in their superiors, the Ministry should have had to examine them a Commission which would protect them in every possible way. They should not be called upon to criticise the man who sits in judg ment upon them. That is a monstrous position to put any public servant in. But that is the position these public servants will occupy. I do not expect a frank and fearless disclosure before such a Committee. It is no reflection on these public servants at all to say that one of the drawbacks to life in a business like theirs is this : I do not care how honorable you are, I do not care how fearless you are, and I do not care how able you are - you have always a row of men above you who have a tremendous influence over your future career. It is one of the painful incidents of the Public Service that the members of it have joined themselves to an occupation, during the whole course of which they must be under some one - under a number of superiors - probably each one of whom can have an unfavorable influence upon their career and advancement. That is in itself a sufficiently hard position for these officers of all ranks to be put in. I enter my emphatic protest against the nature of this Committee, and I wish to say that whatever they may do, I am satisfied that the inquiry cannot be a thorough and fearless one.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not know how far at this moment I am entitled to discuss the general subject of the financial position of the Post and Telegraph Department. I presume that the whole question is open on the amendment as well as on the original motion.

Mr Frazer:

– I am willing temporarily to withdraw the amendment if the honorable member thinks it would give him greater latitude.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not wish the honorable member to withdraw his amendment ; but if I am in order I wish to say a few words about what seems to me the somewhat extraordinary position into which the administration of the Post and Telegraph Department is drifting froma financial point of view. The figures are somewhat remarkable. I find that during the last year or two the expenditure has been increasing by leaps and bounds; not consistently with the natural expansion which takes place in the administration of a great Department like this, but to a very much greater degree than can be properly attributed to that cause. I wish to direct the attention of honorable members to a few of the figures, and to ask the PostmasterGeneral if he can give the Committee some explanation of what they show. If I am wrong no doubt the honorable gentleman will set me right, but to put the matter shortly, what I find is that the revenue this year is estimated to have been increased by £178,000, which represents an increase of 5.6 per cent. But whilst that is so, the expenditure of this Department as shown by the general Estimates, and without taking into account the Additional Estimates at all-

Sir William Lyne:

– We cannot deal with the Additional Estimates until we come to them.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If the Treasurer will allow me, I will show how I propose to deal with them in a moment. I find that whilst the revenue has increased by only 5.6 per cent. on the revenue for last year, the Estimates which are now before the Committee, without taking into account the Additional Estimates laid on the table, show that the expenditure has increased by 7.8 per cent.

Mr Poynton:

– What does the honorable member include in expenditure ?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am just going to tell the honorable member. I find, further, adopting the same rule and taking into account the statements placed before us by the Treasurer as to the Additional Estimates, which will involve the Committee voting £107,000 more, that, whilst the revenue will have been increased by 5.6 per cent., the expenditure will have been increased by no less than 11.5 per cent. in the one year.

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

– Nearly double the increase in revenue.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes, nearly double that increase. I find, also, that the number of officers employed in the Post and Telegraph Department will have been increased by over 1,500 in number, or by 14.4 per cent., in the one year.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not wish to interrupt the honorable member, but, if his speech is to go without challenge, there must be a general debate at this stageon the Additional Estimates.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not at all.

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes, there must be. The honorable member for Flinders has quoted figures based upon the Additional Estimates, and it will be necessary for me, in following him, to quote my own figures, which I intended to quote only when submitting the Additional Estimates. The speech which the honorable member is making, if permitted to continue, must lead to a general debate on the Additional Estimates at this stage, as well as when those Estimates are immediately before the Committee.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– On the point of order, I should like to say that I have no wish to adopt any course which would embarrass Ministers or the Committee in the discussion of this matter. If it would better meet the wishes of the Committee, I am prepared to postpone my remarks on this subject until we are dealing with the Additional Estimates.

Mr Mauger:

– It would be more convenient if the honorable member would do so.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I claim only that either now or when we deal with the Additional Estimates, or at some other time, I shall have the right to discuss the general financial aspect of this most important Department.

Mr Reid:

– I doubt whether the honorable member could discuss it on the Additional Estimates.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– My fear is that if my remarks are postponed until the Additional Estimates are before the Committee, it may then be pointed out that I should haveraised the question which I desire to raise on the general Estimates.

Mr Reid:

– The discussion will be limited to the Additional Estimates when we come to deal with them.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I cannot tell at the present moment how far the Additional Estimates go; but, seeing that we are now engagedupon the general discussion on the Estimates of the Post and Telegraph Department, I think it would be convenient at this stage for the honorable member for Flinders to raise the question he proposes to raise, and to have it discussed and done with. I understand that there is no vote in the Additional Estimates affecting the Secretary and the administrative branch of the Department.

Sir William Lyne:

– Oh, yes, there is.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I point out that on the first vote in these Estimates for the Secretary and Assistant Secretary, we have taken the general discussion and review of the whole Department. That being so, I feel that when we come to discuss the Additional Estimates, it will be my duty to confine the remarks of honorable members to the special items contained in those Estimates. In the circumstances, I think it would be more convenient for the Committee to continue the general discussion now.

Sir William Lyne:

– I was not going to submit the Additional Estimates until after the Committee had disposed of the Estimates now under discussion, but I was asked by the Opposition to submit them as soon as possible.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The reason given was that we wished to discuss the real position of the Department.

Sir William Lyne:

– I said that I submitted them at an unusual stage, but that they were to be discussed after the discussion on the Estimates-in-Chief .

The CHAIRMAN:

– Is the honorable gentleman speaking to a point of order?

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes. I am dealing with the point of order, and discussing what you said, sir, a minute ago.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I rise to a point of order. Is the honorable gentleman dealing with a point of order or not?

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes, I am.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I point out to the Minister that I have already ruled that the honorable member for Flinders would be in order in discussing at this stage the question which he has raised. Though I shall not. of course, permit him to go into the details of the Additional Estimates, so long as the honorable member confines himself to generalities, I shall allow him to proceed.

Sir William Lyne:

– It is a most unusual course.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The position I desire to establish is that whilst the revenue has increased only by the comparatively small amount of 5.6 per cent. over lastyear’s figures, and whilst we might naturally expect the expenditure also to increase in the same reasonable proportion, I find that if we take the Additional Estimates into account, the expenditure has increased by the very extraordinary amount of 1 1. 5 per cent. in one year. The honorable member for Grey askedme what I have included in expenditure, and the question is a very pertinent one. The difficulty in which we all find ourselves in discussing the Estimates of the Post and Telegraph Department is that the accounts of the Department - and I am not blaming the Government in this matter, becausethey are onlyfollowing the rule - are not presented to the Committee in such a way as to enable honorable members to form an intelligible idea of the working of the Department from a financial point of view, as they certainly would be able to do if they were dealing with the accounts of any ordinary business concern. I join with the honorable member for Fawkner and other honorable members who have preceded me in urging the necessity of as soon as possible endeavouring to presentthe figures of the Post and Telegraph Department as the accounts of a going concern, so that we might be able to see what is properly attributable to expenditure, and what to revenue.

Mr Mauger:

– Hear, hear. We have taken steps in that direction.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am very glad to hear it, and I shall be glad to hear some details as to the steps which have been taken. At present we are in the dark, and must make the best conjecture we can. The great difficulty is that in addition to the total expenditure of the Department which is shown on page 44 of the Budget papers, a very large sum appears under the heading of “ New Works and Additions.” Parliament in its wisdom has adopted the policy that these should be paid for out of revenue - a very wise policy inwhich I think we should all concur as far as it can practicably be done - but paying them out of revenue does not in the least mean that they ought to be debited to revenue in a capital account. To order to see whether the Post Office is really working as a business concern ought to work, it is essential that there should be something like a capital and revenue account - some means by which we should be able to see how much is attributable to revenue and how much ought to be put down to capital.

Mr Bowden:

– Then you want some sinking fund for your capital.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Precisely so.

Mr Fisher:

– A sinking fund for money paid out of revenue?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member does not quite follow me.

Mr Fisher:

– I was questioning the interjection.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I agree with the honorable member to some extent that an actual sinking fund is not necessary to provide for the repayment of money which is not borrowed. But if you have a going concern, it does not matter where you get the money from, if you want to see whether the Post Office is working economically-

Mr Fisher:

– I agree wholly with the honorable member’s argument, but I do not agree with the necessity for a sinking fund for money which is paid out of revenue.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is quite right in the abstract, but although you may not have a sinking fund, you ought to debit expenditure of that kind to capital. This year a sum of £434,000 is paid out of the revenue of this year towards this expenditure of the Department. The House has declared that it should be paid out of revenue, and I think I should be quite justified in asserting that the House, in saying that it ought to be debited to the annual expenditure, has also expressed the opinion that it ought to be paid out of the annual revenue, but I do not think it would be quite fair to do so in dealing with the accounts of the Post Office as a business concern, because a good deal of the money which is expended out of revenue is expenditure which is ordinarily met by payment out of moneys borrowed.

Sir John Forrest:

– I do not think so. We never did such a thing in Western Australia.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– A good deal of the expenditure included under “New Works and Additions “ in these Estimates, for undertakings such as building post offices, &c, is in many of the States, although, perhaps, not in Western Australia - and it certainly has been so in some States - met, rightly or wrongly, out of borrowed money.

Mr Mauger:

– In nearly all the States.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think so. But whether it has in fact been paid out of borrowed money or not is not the question to which I am asking the attention of the Committee. If a business firm builds a house out of revenue, or sets up machinery pf a comparatively enduring character, it would not be proper to debit that as part of the ordinary annual expenditure. It ought to be spread over a number of years. I am making this allowance, which diminishes the strength of my case, but I think it is a fair one to make.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Chancellor of the Exchequer at Home makes- loans to the Post Office, which are so paid back.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It should be debited by instalments over a moderate number of years - I do not say over twenty or thirty years.

Mr Mauger:

– Over two-thirds of the life of the works upon which the money is expended.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am making this calculation in the absence of any authoritative exposition from the responsible Minister and his officers. We ought to have an authoritative statement from him, with the assistance of his officers, of what ought to be taken as the period over which these expenditures are supposed to be serviceable.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We ought to have the annual report, which has been promised now for five years.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes. I think I arn making a very liberal allowance indeed when, instead of attributing the whole of the £434,000 to this year, I attribute only one-tenth of it to this year.

Mr Mauger:

– Hear, hear.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– 1 am glad that the Minister agrees with that statement. There will be found on page 45 of the Budget papers what is called a comparison of the years 1901 to 1908, and under the head of Postmaster-General appear on that page the various sums which in each of those years was expended out of revenue towards “ New Works and Additions,” commencing with a moderate sum in 1901-2, and reaching a very large amount this year. In the first year the total was ,£37,000 ; in 1:902-3 it was £i35>°°°; in i9°3-4 £187,000; in 1904-5, £131,000; m 1905-6, £146,000; and in 1906-7, £276,000, while this year it is £434,000. I am quite prepared to admit that instead of attributing the whole of the ,£434,000 to this year-

Mr Mauger:

– I have an estimate on the basis of 10 per cent.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I was not aware of that, but it entirely bears out* the view I have taken. If then we ought to place only 10 per cent, of that sum to the expenditure of this year-

Mr Mauger:

– .£52,000, including the Additional Estimates.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But the Minister has forgotten that if this vear has to bear only one- tenth of its own expenditure, it must bear also one- tenth of each of the expenditures of the preceding years, because if each of these sums has to be spread in instalments over ten years, then every year must bear not only its own tenth but a tenth of the expenditure of each year which has not been fully met.

Mr Mauger:

– Every year would vary very much.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Every year the sum has been increasing.

Mr Mauger:

– And so have the receipts.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– True. I have given the Minister the benefit of the smaller expenditures in previous years, and instead of taking the average of the last three or four years, have gone back to the beginning, taking the weak as well as the strong years. Upon that basis, and assuming that we are justified in saying that these expenditures are of a kind that ought to be spread over ten years, the expenditure this year, instead of being £434,000, comes to £134,000 - I arrive at that sum by adding up all those expenditures and taking onetenth of them - and not £52,000 as suggested by the Minister. If that is not a fair mode of trying to reduce this to a business proposition, I should like to have some other suggestion from those who are responsible for carrying on the Department. I am glad that the Minister agrees with me in the. estimate which 1, quite independently, arrived at, of what ought to be attributed to each year.

Mr Fisher:

– A strong combination.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-I should regard it as a very feeble combination if I had not the Minister’s concurrence. That amount has then to be added to the expenditure of this year. In order to make a fair comparison you must also add to the expenditure of last year its- proper share of the additions which had been paid for in that year and in the preceding years, and so on back to the beginning. By so doing, you will arrive at a proper account. Without wearying honorable members by going into the actual calculation, which every one can make for himself from pages 44 and 45 of the Budget papers, I find the result to be as I have stated - that the expenditure has been increased by £219,000 this year. Last year’s expenditure, as appears from page 44 of the Budget papers, was £2,689,000. I have to add to that year its tenth of the various payments for preceding years.

Mr Mauger:

– Not the whole of it, because a portion of the tenth is paying- off the principal, and it would be reduced.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The amount of one-tenth, which ought to be attributed to expenditure each year includes the tenth of each preceding year. I have added up the various tenths which ought to have been attributed to last year - the figures are all to be found in the Budget- papers - and I find that they amount to £91,000. That sum, added to ihe £2,689,000, would produce £2,780,000. During the present financial year, adding the £134,000 - which represents its proportion - to the £2,865,000, gives us a total of £2,999,000. I find, therefore, that these Estimates - without touching the Additional Estimates at all - represent an increased expenditure of £219,000, which is equal to 7.8 per cent. So that in respect of these Estimates alone, without taking into account one penny of the £100,000 additional which is being expended, we find that whilst the revenue has increased by only 5.6, the expenditure has increased by 7.8 per cent.

Mr Mauger:

– For this year as against last year?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Of course. It is a fair thing to assume that the expenditure .will increase in a growing concern-

Mr Mauger:

– But not in the, same ratio.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not in anything like the same ratio. It ought to increase at a less ratio than that at which the revenue increases.

Mr Mauger:

– This expenditure represents accumulated arrears.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-I must confess that if one wishes to ascertain anything from the Budget papers - and the same remark is applicable to all Budget papers-

Mr Page:

– Except those of the honorable member himself.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If one wishes to ascertain any special information from the Budget papers - and a similar remark is applicable to all Budget papers, my own included - he has to worry through them from beginning to end before he can achieve his purpose.

Mr Page:

– Does not the honorable member think that that state of affairs is brought about intentionally?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I never brought it about intentionally, but I will not answer for other Ministers. Of course, the Postmaster-General may have a complete reply to my remarks-

Mr Thomas:

– The Postmaster-General will make the position quite clear directly.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No doubt. When we come to the Additional Estimates, we find that they provide for an increase in the ordinary expenditure of the Department of £107,000, in addition to an expenditure of £63,000 upon new works, without one single farthing being added to the revenue. But I put aside for the moment the £63,000 provided for additional works - the whole of which ought not to be contributed by this year, but only onetenth of it - as immaterial.

Sir John Forrest:

– Will that money be spent this year?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am not taking that question into consideration. I am dealing only with the additional ordinary expenditure for this year - with the £107,000.

Mr Fisher:

– And recurring expenditure.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is rather important that we should know whether or not it is recurring expenditure. I find that that additional expenditure provides for the employment of no less than 900 additional hands - new men who are coming in at the fifth class-

Mr Mauger:

– It provides for 905 additional officers.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Thus we find that, though upon the ordinary Estimates the expenditure has increased by 7.8 per cent., as against an increase in revenue of 5.6 per cent., the Government now ask us - practically in the tenth month of the financial year - for an additional£107,000 - which, presumably, will all be expended within the next two or three months - and which will bring the expenditure up to 1 1. 5 per cent., or practically double the whole of the increased revenue.

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

– Where is this sort of thing to end ?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Exactly. I am quite prepared to admit that in a great Department like the Post Office, and in a progressive country like Australia, there must be a continual, steady increase of expenditure in proportion to the revenuereceived. But I think it has always been the endeavour of every Department, and of every Minister, to see that, as far as possible, the increased expenditure shall bear a reasonable ratio to the increased revenue - that it shall, if anything, be somewhat less.

Mr Mauger:

– Provided that adequate provision has been previously made out of revenue.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is the point.

Mr Reid:

– That is the whole point.

Mr Mauger:

– This expenditure represents an accumulation of arrears.

Mr Reid:

– It is the result of sweating.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The PostmasterGeneral may have a complete answer to the position which I take up, but the least that he can do is to place the Committee in possession of it.

Mr Mauger:

– If the honorable member had been present on Friday, he would have gained a lot of information.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not think that anything was said on that particular point.

Mr Mauger:

– I shall be happy to give the honorable member further information.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If it should turn out that the expenditure for the present financial year has to be increased in order to make up for sweating, as the right honorable member for East Sydney put it -I do not know whether that means that employes have been underpaid-

Mr Reid:

– They have been overworked and underpaid.

Mr Webster:

– They have not been paid for the work which they have done.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If they have not been paid, they ought to be. Everybody is quite prepared to see justice done in that direction. But the Postmaster-General ought to tell us exactly why this additional bill is presented to us. As yet, we have had no really satisfactory information upon the subject. No one will welcome such information more than I shall, but I thought it necessary to put these plain figures before the Committee, in order to elicit information.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The discussion of the Additional Estimates this afternoon has taken me somewhat by surprise. Probably, sir, your ruling is correct, but I did not anticipate that the Additional Estimates would be discussed before the consideration of the Estimates-in-Chief had been concluded. IfI interpret your decision aright, it is that at this period a discussion may take place upon the Additional Estimates, as well as upon the Estimates-in-Chief?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The adoption of that course will save time.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am quite agreeable to that course being adopted, and as a matter of fact I very much prefer it. I have been waiting for the discussion upon the Estimates-in-Chief to conclude before making a statement in regard to the Additional Estimates, for which honorable members must understand I am responsible. I am not going to allow those Estimates to be passed without placing upon record the reasons why I submit them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– And the reasons why, when taken in conjunction with the Estimates-in-Chief, they show an increased expenditure of £1,500,000 over the expenditure of last year?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

-Perhaps I cannot satisfy honorable members in that regard. I am not going to be placed in a false position because, as honorable members know, the Treasurer has practically no control over the administration of any Department. I am not blaming the PostmasterGeneral at all for the increased expenditure proposed, because I know what a huge Department he has to administer. B ut for my own protection I desire to place upon record the reasons why I have been compelled to submit these Additional Estimates. With your permission, sir, I wish to trace, as briefly as I can, the history of the growth of the increased expenditure of this Department up to the present stage. These Additional Estimates provide for a total expenditure of£571,028.

Mr Page:

– I rise to a point of order. You, sir, confine honorable members pretty closely to the point at issue, and yet you are allowing the Treasurer to make rambling remarks in the nature of a financial statement. If other honorable members attempted to adopt that course, they would be promptly pulled up.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! What is the honorable member’s point of order?

Mr Page:

– I desire to know whether the Treasurer is in order in making practically a financial statement?

The CHAIRMAN:

– I was waiting to ascertain exactly what line the Treasurer proposed to follow. I hope that he is not going to make a statement dealing with the Estimates for the whole of the CommonwealthDepartments. If he attempts to follow that course, he will be out of order. But he will be quite in order in dealing with any of the Estimates relating to the Postmaster-General’s Department.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– It was mainly the Postmaster-General’s Department that I was referring to. There was only one other Department about which I intended to say a few words, in order to make the position clear to honorable members. I desired, sir, to quote a few figures regarding the Defence Department.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member will not be in order in doing so.

Mr Wilks:

– We have passed the Estimates for the Defence Department.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I know that, and that is where the trouble comes in. We have not passed certain amounts on the Additional Estimates.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The trouble is that the honorable gentleman did not bring down the Additional Estimates soon enough.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I brought down the Additional Estimates almost immediately I was asked to do so, but I did not anticipate that the two discussions would be dove-tailed into one.It is only to the items for the Defence Department that I wish to refer, sir.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable memberwill not be in order indealing with the Estimates for that Department.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– In that case, I shall reserve what I wish to say until we reach those Estimates. After deducting certain totals, these Estimates provide the sum of£571,028.

Mr Wilks:

– I rise to order, sir, because it appears to me that the Treasurer is attempting to depart from your ruling. He has mentioned that “ these “ Estimates provide the sum of £571,028. That is the total amount of the Additional Estimates, and I draw your attention to the fact that the Estimates for the Postmaster-General’s Department provide £107,000 and £63,000, making a total of£170,000 in round figures. Suppose that the honorable gentleman goes outside the proposed appropriation of £170,000, the other items are included in the Estimates for Departments which have already been passed, and we should be unable to discuss the matter.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I submit, sir, that in this general discussion it will be quite in order to take into account all the factors concerning the Estimates now before the Committee. How can we discuss the departmental finances unless all the factors are on the board?

Mr Wilks:

– What I am arguing is that we can discuss the item of£170,000, but not the item of£571,028.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I submit, sir, that the Treasurer will be quite in order in discussing any matter relating to the Post and Telegraph Department, either on the Additional Estimates or on the EstimatesinChief, so far as it will make clear its whole financial position.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I took it that the Treasurer was merely mentioning incidentally that there is provided a certain sum, out of which, I presume, so much is required for the Post and Telegraph Depart- ment. I did not understand him to be discussing the matter at all. He is quite in order.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I merely wished to state the total sum which is provided on these Estimates, but if the desire is not to discuss in detail now the Additional Estimates as well as the EstimatesinChief for the Post and Telegraph Department I shall refrain from doing so. I may mention that the Department absorbs the following amount-

Mr Page:

– On a point of order, sir, I desire to ascertain whether, if the Treasurer makes a general statement concerning this Department on the Estimates-in-Chief, we can discuss afterwards the Additional Estimates ?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Committee is now considering the Estimates relating to the Postmaster-General’s Department, and so long as the Treasurer confines himself to them he will be quite in order.

Mr Wilks:

– That is, Estimates amountingto£107,000 ; he must not go outside that proposal ?

The CHAIRMAN:

– No.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– The provision for this Department includes£107,000 and a lot more. On the Additional Estimates there is provided for the Post and Telegraph Department£107,720 under ordinary votes,£975 under the head of Home Affairs for maintenance,£63,410 under the control of the PostmasterGenralfor new worksand buildings, and £27,211 for the erection of post offices, &c., making a total of £199,316 for the Department. I have here astatement which shows the increase of revenue and expenditure. I am sorry that I did not know that the discussion was likely to take this trend, otherwise I would have referred to these items before the honorable member for Flinders spoke, as I could have given him a good deal of detailed information concerning the matters on which he spoke generally.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But there is no additional revenue ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes. I shall state the revenue presently, because I have had a return prepared up to date. Honorable members are aware, through the press, that some attacks have been made upon me because I would not and could not provide money enough to supply the requirements of this Department during the last seven or eight months. I propose to quote some figures in order to show how the departmental expenditure has grown since 1900-1, when it was£2, 595,860. In 1901-2 it was £2, 383,815; in 1902-3, £2,568,846; in 1903-4, £2,697,454; in 1904-5, £2,699,667; in 1905-6,£2,784,664; in 1906-7, £2,965,773;while in 1907-8 it is estimated at £3,498,503, showing an increase of£532,730, in 1907-8, as compared with the previousyear.

Mr McWilliams:

– It is about time the honorable gentleman took a pull on it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am not complaining of any one, except that I have my own ideas about certain things.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– To gain what increase of revenue?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I shall come to that immediately.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Are those ideas for circulation ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am submitting the figures so that they shall appear in Hansard.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable gentleman said just now that he had some ideas of his own, and I wish to know if he willcommunicate them to the Committee ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Not at the present juncture. The reason why I am going into this detail is because I have to protect myself as Treasurer against the demands for large increases of expenditure which are coming forward.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable gentleman means that he has to protect himself against the Postmaster-General?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– No. My honorable colleague and I get on very well indeed. I am not blaming him. I recognise that it is very difficult for an honorable member who is new to the position to have full grip and control.

Mr Page:

– Whom does the honorable member blame?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

-I do not blame the honorable member except to a small extent, because sometimes he asks for works to be done which might be delayed a little, and that is the case with a large number of honorable members:

Mr Page:

– For what purpose does the honorable gentleman think that my constituents sent me here?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– One reason was that the honorable member might get all that he could out of the Treasury for them. In the year 1900- 1, the revenue from the Department was £2,269,502 ; in 1901-2, £2,372,861; in 1902-3,£2,404,730; in 1903-4,£2,510,203;in1904-5. £2,632,551; in 1905-6, £2,824,348; and in 1906-7, £3,129,074 ; while the. revenue for 1907-8, is estimated at£3,297,000. At the end of the present financial year the difference between the increase of expenditure and the increase of receipts will be £364,804, not including interest on buildings, that is to say, the expenditure has increased by £532,730 in1907-8, while the receipts have increased by only £167,926, the difference being £364,804.

Mr Reid:

– Then the Government will not propose to reduce the revenue by the adoption of penny postage?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am not going to deal with that matter now.

Mr McWilliams:

– Can the honorable gentleman state what profits were made by the Department under State control ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That information has been given previously, and I do not wish to overweight this statement. The increase in the number of persons employedin the Department of the PostmasterGeneral is most serious. This increase in employes is necessary ; but the only reason that can justify it is that previously, as the Postmaster-General says, the Department was starved.

Mr Reid:

– Then this Government has been starving it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Mauger:

Mr CHANTER:

– Who were these men? Who were the Postmaster-General’s informants ?

Mr.Mauger. - The papers connected with the case were laid upon the table of the Senate, and can be laid upon the table of the House if necessary.

Mr CHANTER:

– Does the PostmasterGeneral say that he even read those papers before he took action?

Mr Mauger:

Mr CHANTER:

– Quite so, but that is not the point. I venture to say that, under such circumstances, the honorable member would be one of the most dissatisfied men in Victoria.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m.

Mr CHANTER:

– I propose now, in answer to the Postmaster-General, to quote from an article published in the Leader of 12th March, 1906, which does not traverse the merits of the case -

Undoubtedly there are the seeds of tyranny in the amplitude of this power, for it is open to the Postmaster-General to act on his own initiative and to inflict injury without offering any opportunity for remonstrance or explanation. He may be right or he may be wrong in the action he has taken, but whether he be right or wrong has nothing to do with the question and imposes no limitation on what he may do. The High Court has declared that in a matter-

That the Chairman - in ruling that a member could not read an extract from a newspaper in commenting upon the action of a Minister in administering his office as one not consistent with a citizen’s rights - is not supported by the StandingOrders for the guidance of debate.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must take one stand or another. He has handed in a motion of dissent from my ruling, and he must either proceed with it or withdraw it. I have not prevented him from bringing his case forward or debating it ; but it is for me to decide whether a member is or is not relevant. I ruled that he was not in order in what he was doing.

Mr Chanter:

The CHAIRMAN:

– I do not know what the extract is.

Mr Reid:

– Let the honorable member read it first, and say that it is an extract afterwards.

Mr CHANTER:

– I invite the attention of the Committee to this statement -

How very great are the discretionary powers vested in the Postmaster-General under the Post Office Act was clearly shown by a judgment of the High Court, delivered yesterday. He is authorized to refuse to deliver mail matter addressed to any person or persons carrying on a fraudulent or immoral business, and he alone, it would seem, is the judge of the fraudulence or immorality. His action is not examinable by any Court either on an application for a mandamus or on a proceeding by writ of certiorari, mandamus can issue because the delivery of letters is not a Ministerial act which the Postmaster-General is bound in virtue of his office to perform. Nor is the refusal a judicial act, since the party against whom the order is made is not heard, so there, is no ground for a writ of certiorari. As an executive or administrative act there is no apparent means of bringing the Postmaster-General’s determination under judicial review. Without attempting to discuss the merits of the Postmaster-General’s decision in the particular case before the Court, it may be remarked that individual PostmasterGenerals may differ widely in the meaning they attach to the term “ immoral,” and yet a firm so labelled by any one of them will have no chance of refuting the charge. Of course, in the last resort the Postmaster-General is re- sponsible to Parliament, but Parliament, save in the event of what appeared to be a glaring error, would be. most unlikely to challenge his opinion. Seeing that the Post Office is a monopoly, and that its political, chief is armed with such great personal authority, it is to be hoped that in all instances of refusal to convey correspondence the utmost care and most scrupulous impartiality will ever be exercised.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Since the honorable member asks me, I may tell him that 1 stopped the delivery of letters to Tattersall’s in Sydney ten years ago, without consulting anybody.

Mr CHANTER:

Mr Reid:

Mr MAUGER:

– I do not know.I deny having selected any particular firm for special treatment. I deny having discriminated, and if honorable members will only take the trouble to read the papers connected with this case alone - to say nothing of the history and practice of the firm in question - I am sure they will be satisfied that the right thing has been done.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not propose to traverse the very interesting case which has been referred to by the honorable member for Riverina. The consideration of that matter had better be left until another occasion, when it can be dealt with upon its merits. I wish to direct the attention of the Committee to the report of the Public Service Commissioner, and to. certain matters which he deems to be of sufficient importance to justify him in dealing with them at considerable length. The first one relates to the question of the retirement of public servants upon attaining a certain age, namely, from sixty to sixty-five years. The Commissioner deals with this question on pages 12 and 13 of his report. He points out that during 1906 some 35 officers were obliged to retire on account of having attained the age limit, and that during 1907-8 181 officers will be due to retire. He also directs attention to. the particular action of the Postal Department in retaining the services of an officer who has passed themaximum ‘.age limit, namely, sixty-five years.. He regards this matter as of so. much importance - so far as it affects the efficiency of the service - that he has forwarded a long communication to the Department in regard to it. He points out the evil of allowing officers - no matter how efficient or how expert they may have been - to occupy an important position in the service, after attaining the age limit, and the reasons which actuated Parliament in fixing that limit. Just one quotation from his letter will set out his position. He writes -

If the promotion of officers to the highest positions is delayed until they are nearing the statutory age, no marked improvement can be expected in the Service. When they get to the highest positions they have only a few years to serve, and naturally make little effort to effect reforms or improve things, their main object being, with few exceptions, to make matters comfortable for themselves for the few years they have to remain. This must be bad for the public interest : but if officers go to “ the top “ in the earlier years of .their lives, they naturally set out to improve matters, and so build up an official reputation.

That is the effect which it has upon the rank and file. But the effect, which it has upon the officer primarily concerned, and upon the service through him, is set out in the following paragraph -

In a Service where officers are kept on beyond the term of sixty-five years, it must inevitably follow that their successors are likely to be men who -have- been accustomed to an antiquated régime, especially when the head posi-tions have been filled for a series of years by men nearing the retiring age, because when an officer is approaching the time for his severance from the Service, he makes little effort to change things; his mind, as a rule, is not so receptive as a younger man’s, and, as a consequence, his conservatism becomes accentuated.

Then begins the correspondence as printed in the Commissioner’s report. . The Commissioner first of all sets out the four main divisions of the service as the Administrative, Professional, Clerical, and General. He points out that the maximum salary fixed by Act of Parliament in the Clerical Division is £600 per annum - the position that Mr.’ Oxenham filled. He then sums up the matter as follows -

Under the Post and Telegraph Act the permanent head of the Postmaster-General’s Department is personally charged with the responsibility of the administration of that Department, subject to certain control, by the Minister, and the Secretary of the Postmaster-General’s Department, like other permanent heads, is furnished -with a competent staff ‘to assist him in carrying out his duties and responsibilities, the chief. Central staff official under his control being Mr. Oxenham, who, until’ recently, bore the designation of “ Chief Clerk,” a Clerical Division position carrying a salary of £600 ner annum, the prescribed maximum for that division. Some months’ ago Mr. Oxenham’s designation was at the request and on the recommendation of the permanent head, altered to that of “Assistant Secretary.” This having been effected, the permanent head subsequently submitted a recommendation that the position of Assistant Secretary be placed in the Administrative Division. After giving full consideration to the representations made, I could not see my way to accede to the request, and the Secretary was informed accordingly. Thereafter followed a series of communications between this office and the Department on the subject, the contents of which I consider should be set out verbatim, so that Parliament may be cognizant of all the circumstances of the case; as I note that, despite my refusal to comply with the departmental request, the position of Assistant Secretary appears in the current Estimates as an administrative position, with a salary of£700 assigned to it.

He adds -

There is one matter, however, which, to my mind, savours of an attempt to circumvent the salary limitations prescribed by the Act, and which, owing to its special importance as affecting the proper administration of the Service, calls for special attention.

Department should not be administered in such a way. The Deputy PostmastersGeneral are engaged from morning, until night in writing and signing letters, and are unable to supervise the work of the Department. They should be given “more freedom, and a system of decentralization should, as far as possible, be adopted.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

. - I hardly thought it worth while to discuss these Estimates, but, in view of the extraordinary success of the honorable mem- ‘ ber for Barrier and the honorable member for Grey, I propose to make a few observations.

Mr Thomas:

– The matter to which the honorable member refers relates to a promise which was’ made to me, and provision for which was once made on’ the Estimates.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– Does the honorable member think it singular that promises should have been made to him? Year after year, in connexion with the consideration of the Estimates, I have had promises made to me; but have not been able to obtain their fulfilment. As the Treasurer appears to be in a yielding mood, I think it desirable, however, to again bring forward certain grievances, although my experience is that very little is gained by discussing the Estimates. It is true that the Post and Telegraph Department’ does not deal hurriedly wilh any question that comes within its purview. If the Ministry imagine that the discontent in the service will be allayed, or the demand for an investigation removed, by the appointment of the Cabinet Committee of Inquiry, ‘they are making a huge mistake. It seems somewhat farcical that members of the Cabinet should be appointed to inquire into their own acts.

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– It is probable that the honorable member thinks not, but, at the same time, it is simply appealing from Caesar to Caesar.

Mr Mauger:

– This is by no means a new experience.

Mr BATCHELOR:

There are about eighteen or nineteen men in the head office who perform night duty regularly, who have to be given a night off prior to Sundays, and consequently the night staff has two or three men of the regular staff off every night in the week.

Question - That the item “ Secretary, £1,000 “ be reduced by £1 - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 11

NOES: 16

Majority … … 5

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I move -

That the item “Assistant Secretary, £700” be reduced by £1.

I do this, not because I think that the officer filling the position is overpaid, but because I think that the Government should have respected the recommendationof the Public Service Commissioner, and, if necessary, increased the maximum salary attainable by officers in the clerical division, so that other officers similarly situated might be treated in the same way. I also wish to enter my protest against the centralizationof routine business in the head office in Melbourne, when it could be done more effectually in the capitals of the States, under the direction of the Deputy Postmasters-General.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 190 (New South Wales), £976,964; division 191(Victoria), £684,153; division 192 (Queensland), £446,225; division 193 (South Australia) £262,684 ; division 194 (Western Australia), £288,799; and division 195 (Tasmania), £136,079, agreed to.

Resolutions reported.

Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to-

That the Standing Orders be suspended in order to allow the report from the Committee of Supply to be adopted, and the Appropriation Bill 1907-8 to be passed through all - its stages without delay.

Resolutions adopted.

Resolution of Ways and Means, covering resolutions of Supply, adopted.

Ordered -

That Sir William Lyne and Mr. Mauger do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

page 10251

APPROPRIATION BILL

Bill presented by Sir William Lyne, and passed through all its stages.

House adjourned at1.12 a.m. (Wednesday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 7 April 1908, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1908/19080407_reps_3_45/>.

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House of Representatives 7 April 1908

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Mr KING O’MALLEY:DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr MAUGER:Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr REID:EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MAUGER:

Mr Reid:

Mr MAUGER:

Mr PALMER:ECHUCA, VICTORIA

Mr MAUGER:

Mr JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MAUGER:

QUESTION

PAPUA

Mr KELLY:WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr FRAZER:KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr MAHON:COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH MINT

Mr BOWDEN:NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr BOWDEN:

Mr Austin Chapman:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL SITE

Mr CROUCH:CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr J H Catts:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN MEN OF LETTERS FUND

Mr CHANTER:RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION

Mr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr CROUCH:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr McDOUGALL:WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

ADELAIDE CUSTOMS FRAUDS

Mr HUTCHISON:HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

Mr Hutchison:

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

CLOSE OF THE SESSION

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

VOIDED ELECTIONS

Mr CHANTER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CHANTER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910

Mr Chanter:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

PAPER

QUESTION

COMMUNICATION WITH FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS

Mr CROUCH:

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

SUEZ CANAL DUES

Mr KNOX:KOOYONG, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

Mr REID:East Sydney

Sir William Lyne:

Mr REID:

House of Representatives
7 April 1908

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr REID:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr PALMER:
ECHUCA, VICTORIA

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr FRAZER:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr CROUCH:
CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr KNOX:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr REID:
East Sydney

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917