House of Representatives
10 December 1907

3rd Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 7248

PETITION

Mr. KNOX presented a petition from a number of electors interested in the sale, use, and production of cinematograph exposed films, praying that the duty imposed on these articles might be removed.

Petition received.

page 7248

QUESTION

CADETS: PHYSICAL EXAMINATIONS

Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether it has been reported to him that at the last King’s Birthday Review, held in Adelaide, owing to the fact that the day was very hot, over twenty cadets fainted, and had to be removed from the ground on which the review was held; whether he knows that’ this has had the effect of rendering the cadet movement to some extent unpopular, and also if he does not see his way to carry out a suggestion already made by me, that cadets should be examined as to their physical fitness before undergoing military training?

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I will take into consideration the suggestion made by the honorable member. On general principles,. 1 agree with him as to the necessity for ascertaining the physical fitness of cadets for the work they are asked to perform. Instructions have been given to all the responsible officers in the various States to see that no boy physically unfit for such work is permitted to join the cadets. Further attention will be given to the matter.

page 7248

PROPOSED TRAINING CAMP AT HEIDELBERG

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

– I wish to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether his attention has been directed to the following paragraph in this morning’s Age, headed, “Training Citizen Soldiers: Field Work Blocked”:-

The announcement made last month, with a great flourish of trumpets, by the Victorian District Commandant that the parades for the King’s Birthday were to “be of a service and not a show nature seems to have exhausted the efforts of thehead-quarters’ staff in this direction.

Although it was pointed out then that the useful parades were the work of the regimental commanders, it would seem that their attempts to continue this really valuable work are to be rendered nugatory. One of the metropolitan-, militia infantry regiments, after great trouble and preparation, recently wrote to the District Commandant for leave to hold a moving camp and two nights’ bivouac from Heidelberg to Diamond Creek on the coming Foundation Day in January. Nearly 400 of the men had agreed’ to give the necessary time to the work. They have now been informed that ColonelStanley will not consent to this programme, and refuses to recommend’ the expense, which is less than £50. As there are several salary increases to the heail-quarters’ stuff list this year largely exceeding this sum, and as a moving camp is one of the very necessary war condition practices of which the local troops have too’ little oppor-. tunity, it is to be hoped that personal consideration will be given by the Minister to the matter. So keenly do the officers and men on the infantry feel over the incident that if Colonel’ Stanley remains obdurate they will themselves endeavour to subscribe the amount necessary to carry out a military service too frequently neglected.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Is the honorable member asking a question?

Mr PAGE:

– Yes; I wish to ask whether the Minister’s attention has been drawn to the paragraph I have read, and. if so, whether he will inform the House as to the correctness of the statements contained therein, and as to what he intends to do in the matter?

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– I did see the paragraph, referred to, and have asked the Commandant to report in connexion with the matter. I hope to bs able to-morrow to inform the House of the action which is, in the circumstances, considered wise.

page 7248

QUESTION

PAPUA: PURCHASE OF CONFLICT GROUP

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I wish to ask the Attorney-General a question without notice. In view of the fact that, the Papua Bill is so low down on the. business-paper that it is very unlikely that it can be dealt with this session, in what position does Mr. Wickham stand inreference to the New Guinea Government? He is the gentleman for whom the Bill was practically introduced. He is the lessee of an island on the coast of New Guinea, and I wish to know whether his rights under the lease will be affected by the delay in the passing of the Bill?

Mr GROOM:
Attorney-General · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · Protectionist

– I ask the honorable member to give notice of his question for to-morrow. The position of the matter at present is that, some years ago, Mr.

Wickham took a lease from the New Guinea Administration, under which he had a right to purchase the fee-simple of certain islands. He exercised his , option under the contract before the Papua Act of 1905 came into operation, but the deed was not issued. The land law was changed, and no deed in fee simple can be issued. It is open to question whether he has not a claim for compensation against the Government, if they fail to fulfil the contract made with him. The object of the Bill is to enable the Commonwealth Government to fulfil the obligations of the contract.

page 7249

QUESTION

MAKINE SURVEY, NORTH-WEST COAST OF AUSTRALIA

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister, without notice, whether he has any information which he is in a position to communicate to the House in regard to the proposed marine survey of the North- West coast of Australia? I think that on a previous occasion the honorable gentleman stated that he regarded the survey of the coast of Australia as a work for which the Commonwealth Government is responsible, or, at any rate, should give particular attention to. As a good deal of correspondence has taken place between the State Government of Western Australia, the Admiralty, and the Commonwealth Government; I should be much obliged if the Prime Minister can give the House any information with regard to the position of this very important matter at the present time.

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– Within the last few days we have agreed with the State Government of Western Australia to expedite the progress of the survey referred to, the Commonwealth and State Governments defraying the cost in equal proportions. We have inquired the earliest date at which the Admiralty can commence the work.

page 7249

QUESTION

LIGHTING OF CHAMBER

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether there is any chance of improving the electric lighting of the chamber ? The present light has had a very bad effect upon my eyes, and several other honorable members have complained that it has affected their sight. Some, I believe, have had to take to wearing glasses. The defective light also has, in some instances, had the effect of causing violent pains across the temples- Is there any. probability of an improvement being made before the sittings are resumed next year ?

Mr SPEAKER:

– No complaint had been made to me about this matter until the honorable member for Lang drew attention to it, or I should have taken some steps earlier to improve the lighting. The fact is that the colouring which is used to tint the globes of the electric light gradually deteriorates in use. This makes it neces- . sary that the globes should be taken down each session, and freshly tinted globes substituted. I shall have that done before we meet again next year.

page 7249

QUESTION

ENLISTMENT: MILITARY FORCES

Medical Examination

Mr CROUCH:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Minister of Defence a question without notice. On 8th October last, a promise was made to me that certain information should be supplied as to the enlistment and rejection of recruits for three years. That is not a very large demand, and I should like to ask the Minister whether he can arrange that the district Commandant should, without overworking himself, supply the information, at any rate, within the next few months?

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– I believe that the question asked by the honorable member was replied to, but not completely. I instructed the Commandant to furnish full information, and I am at a loss to know why that has not yet been done. I shall make inquiries, and inform the honorable member of the result.

page 7249

QUESTION

SYDNEY-WOLLONGONG TRUNK TELEPHONE

Mr FULLER:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to ask the PostmasterGeneral, without notice,whether the Treasurer has yet approved of the necessary funds being made available for the carrying out of the trunk telephone line from Sydney to Wollongong - a work which was approved months ago?

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– The matter is under the consideration of the Treasurer, and I have no doubt that action will shortly be taken.

page 7249

QUESTION

TASMANIAN MAIL CONTRACT

Burnie-Melbourne Service

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

In view of the promise made by the Union Steam-ship Company, when the Tasmanian Mail

Contract was entered into, to put the steamer Oonah on the Burnie-Melbourne service before the end of 1907, will the Minister insist on that part of the contract being fulfilled, so that the thousands who desire, for the purposes of health and pleasure, to visit Tasmania may, after a journey of only twelve hours’ duration, enjoy the bewildering enchantment of the magnificent scenery of Burnie and the surrounding beauty spots of the northern and western portions of the Garden of Eden of the Commonwealth?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows -

The Union Steam-ship. Company advised, under yesterday’s date that the Oonah, which was due in Melbourne yesterday afternoon, would at once be laid up in order to undergo her periodical survey, and that, when this was completed, she would take the place of the Flora in terms of the contract. Steps will be taken to see that the provisions of the contract are complied with.

page 7250

QUESTION

MARSHALL. ISLANDS, PACIFIC: CLAIM OF BURNS, PHILP & CO

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Regarding cabled extracts from German newspapers as to the counter claims made by Germany as a set-off against Australia’s Marshall Islands claim, has any official communication yet been received from the British Government ?
  2. Is it a fact that Germany received large sums from Great Britain for claims made during the Boer War, which claims were paid promptly, and, it was understood, satisfactorily, by the British Government?
  3. Has Germany ever advanced any satisfactory reason why she should not settle the monetary loss sustained through breach of treaty rights in the Pacific, and has Australia any guarantee that she will in the future have protection under such treaties?
  4. Has not Germany admitted liability in connexion with the Marshall Islands claim, and, if so, is it comprehensible that there should be. serious difficulty in arranging for arbitration to assess the amount of the liability ?
Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. No reply of any kind has been received from the Colonial Office.
  2. The Government have no official information on this subject, but it is believed that the facts are as stated.
  3. Germany has not advanced any satisfactory reason that we are aware of, nor does Australia seem to have acquired any better guarantee for future protection under treaties.
  4. Germany has not formally admitted lia- bility in connexion with the claim, but offered to pay a sum of money ex gratia.

page 7250

PAY FOR PROCLAIMED HOLIDAYS

Temporary Employes

Mr PAGE:

asked the Postmaster-

General, upon notice-

Whether he has made any arrangement or come to any determination to pay all temporary hands in the employ of his Department for time lost on proclaimed holidays?

Will he name the holidays for which payment will be made?

If he declines to nay temporary hands for proclaimed holidays, will “he allow the men concerned to work on all such holidays, except Christmas Day and Good Friday?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– In answer to the honorable member’s questions, I have to state as follows -

  1. This matter is governed by Public Service Regulation 136, whichprovides that every temporary employe shall be deemed to be subject to the Regulations for the time being for the guidance of officers of the Commonwealth Public Service relating to holidays prescribed by section 72 of the Public Service Act.
  2. The holidays (for which payment is made to temporary employes in connexion with permanent employes of . the service), as set forth in section 72 of the Public Service Act, are 1st January, Commonwealth Day, Christmas Day and the following day, Good Friday and the following Saturday and Monday, the anniversary of the birth of the Sovereign. Any day proclaimed by the Governor-General or required by any Act to be observed in lieu of the said days. Any days prescribed under the law of any State to be observed in lieu of such days in that State. Any day or part of a day appointed by or proclaimed under the law of a State to be a public holiday or bank holiday or half-holiday throughout such State or in any part of such State. Any specified day or specifiedpart of a day proclaimed by the GovernorGeneral to be kept as a holiday or halfholiday in the public offices of the Commonwealth or in any part thereof.
  3. See answer to No. 1.

page 7250

QUESTION

TELEGRAPHIC DELAYS

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– In reply to questions asked bv the honorable member for Calare, upon notice, on the 6th inst., vide Hansard, p. 7117, I have to state that the Deputy Postmaster-General, Sydney, has furnished the following information : -

  1. Yes; a communication was received on the 5th inst. from the Chamber of Commerce.
  2. The Electrical Engineer reports that the interruptions during October and the early part of November were due to the abnormal conditions prevailing, viz., bush fires and fierce westerly gales. Since fires have been extinguished and the gales have abated the interruptions have virtually ceased, and those since experienced are no greater than must be expected when length of pole lines and . number of wires are considered. The erection of several additional lines is now being arranged for, and in order to obtain the best possible results from present circuits, line inspectors have for some time past been making a pole-to-pole examination of the principal northern, southern, and western circuits in order to ascertain what is necessary, if possible further to strengthen the lines and prevent interruptions, and the carrying out of portions of this work is now being arranged for.

page 7251

QUESTION

PIANOS : IMPORTATION

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– A question was asked recently by the honorable member for Coolgardie regarding the importation of pianos, and it was claimed that some misstatement had been made regarding the information supplied. A mistake was made. It has been put right as far as possible, and I now present the following information: -

It appears that for 1905, 1906, the numbers were not recorded in New South Wales, but estimated only on the basis of previous records. It is, therefore, impossible to give absolutely correct numbers, but numbers have been inserted obtained by dividing the average value- £22- into the total value.

The total values have been checked, and the collector assures me that the average value now given -22 -may be accepted as correct.

Return sent to Mr. Wertheim, on which Mr. Mahon questioned the Minister : -

page 7251

COUNT-OUT : RESUMPTION OF BUSINESS

Motion (by Mr. Deakin) agreed to -

That, anything to the contrary in the Standing Orders notwithstanding, the House do immediately resolve itself into the Committee of Waysand Means, and that business be resumed at the point which it had reached at the last sitting.

page 7251

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration resumed from 9th December, vide page 7247):

Division XIII. - Paper and Stationery.

Item 354. Printing and Stencilling Inks, n.e.i., per lb. (General Tariff), 6½d. ; (United

Kingdom), 6d. ; or ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent. ; whichever rate returns the higher duty.

Upon which Mr. Archer had moved by way of amendment -

That after the figures “ 6½d.,” the words “ and on and after10th December, 1907, per lb. (General Tariff), 4d.,” be inserted.

Mr ARCHER:
Capricornia

.- It is necessary that I should again discuss this item. I explained the position fully this morning, but at such an early hour, and with so many honorable members necessarily absent, that the majority now present could not have heard any of the arguments adduced, whilst some of those who were present then did not hear them because they were so fatigued that they were asleep. The whole point of the matter lies in this and the next item. Item 355 provides-

News Printing Ink, invoiced at under 3d. per lb., and in packages of not less than 1 cwt. , ad val. (General Tariff). 7.0. per cent. : (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

The news printing ink mentioned in that item is the same as the printing ink mentioned in item 354, but that class of ink which is invoiced at under 3d. per lb. and in packages of not less than 1 cwt. is used by the very large papers, who can import and use ink in large quantities.

Sir John Forrest:

– A hundredweight is not a large quantity.

Mr ARCHER:

– My authority is the honorable member for Wimmera, who is a newspaper man, and also obtained information from the Country Press Association. He assures me that the proprietors of the smaller newspapers do not like to get their inks in quantities of 1 cwt., because they use it slowly, and, as it deteriorates, it does not pay them to do so. My information comes not only from the honorable member for Wimmera, but from individual newspaper proprietors who are entirely disinterested parties, and are technical experts on the question of printing. The honorable member for Wimmera, as he could not be present, has asked me to take up the, case on behalf of the Country. Press Association. As I said last night, the ink for the great newspaper proprietors is admitted at 30 per cent, and 25 per cent., but the small proprietors, who, owing to technical difficulties, have to use more expensive ink, costing from 4d. to 6d. per lb., are subject to duties ranging, from too to 130, and even 200 per cent. One invoice which. I have here shows that the landed cost of a small consignment of ink was£1818s. 6d., and that the duty amounted to £18 4s., or practically 100 per cent. I appealed to the Treasurer to place all printers’ inks on. a common basis by making them subject to the duties proposed in item 355, namely, 30 per cent, and 25 per cent., but he declined to accept the suggestion. Various members on the Government side shook their heads, reminding me very forcibly of those images which nod when they are touched; but not one was “game” to attempt to refute my statements. 1 have taken some interest in this matter, and I know, as well as such a thing can be known, that a majority of honorable members saw the justice of the proposition which I advanced, and were prepared to support my proposal. Unfortunately, the settlement of the question was delayed so late that many honorable members had been obliged to pair and go away ; and when I saw that the Government were determined to force their proposal through on a minority vote, I got disgusted and marched out of the chamber, followedby other honorable members.

Mr Wise:

– After calling for a division ! It was distinctly against the Standing Orders.

Mr ARCHER:

– As a matter of fact, I know very little of the Standing Orders. I asked that all inks should be placed on one basis, and was not particular whether the duties chosen were ad valorem or fixed. I hope that to-day, the Committee will see that justice is done. Last night I moved that the fixed rate should be omitted, but failed, and I also failed in having the duty reduced to 3d. I then moved the duty should be 4d.

Mr Mauger:

– And then the honorable member walked out !

Mr ARCHER:

– Yes, as a protest against the Government attempting to force through an unjust proposal on what they knew to be a minority vote.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- For the best part of an hour yesterday afternoon I listened to the Treasurer explaining a difficulty which had arisen in regard to amendments. One portion of the speech was a sermon and another portion an appeal, and the whole was directed to showing that no power would force him to accept differential treatment of newspaper proprietors in relation to the duty on news paper. The honorable gentleman declared that all newspapers must be treated alike - that there must be no discrimination as between the large newspaper proprietors and small newspaper proprietors. In the item now under discussion, however, there is a discrimination, not in favour of the small proprietor, but in favour of the large proprietor; and we have no sermon or appeal from the honorable gentleman about being forced into a false position. On the contrary, the Treasurer is seeking, by sheer force of numbers, to bring about that discrimination which he so violently denounced yesterday. There is now an opportunity presented to the Government to carry out a declared policy of treating all sections of the community alike.

Mr McWilliams:

– At any rate, we ought not to favour the larger proprietors.

Mr FRAZER:

– I am opposed to favouring any man. Yesterday the Treasurer declaimed in the most magnificent fashion against the proposal of the honorable member for Coolgardie. The honorable member for Barrier assured the Treasurer of his support with a true protectionist’s vote in order that all the newspaper proprietors might be treated alike; but that offer was not deemed satisfactory. It must be admitted that when the Treasurer voted in favour of a duty on news paper, he appeared to be about the most dissatisfied man in the chamber. If the Committee determine to adopt a fixed in preference to an ad valorem duty, I trust that it will be made to apply both to this item and to the next. I am satisfied that a satisfactory ink is being produced in Australia, and I am prepared to extend to it a reasonable measure of protection. . But not a tittle of evidence has’ been forthcoming to warrant us in discriminating in favour of the large newspaper proprietors.

Mr Fuller:

– I rise to a point of order. I wish to draw attention to the fact that the honorable member for Melbourne is not at present in the chamber.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Does the honorable member think that that is a point of order ?

Mr Fuller:

– In view of the notice of motion which the honorable member for Melbourne has given, I do.

The CHAIRMAN:

– It is no point of order.

Mr FRAZER:

– I am innocent of the reason which prompted the honorable member for Illawarra to interrupt me. I do not quite appreciate the connexion between printing and stencilling inks and the presence of the honorable member for Melbourne in the chamber. Personally, I do not intend in connexion with Tariff legislation to discriminate in favour of any section of the community. It appears to me that the Government proposal is a mos’t flagrant attempt to confer an advantage upon’ the printer who imports ink in large quantities, as against the individual who imports it in small quantities because his needs are small. In view of the magnificent and sustained appeal which the Treasurer made yesterday, when he declared that he was absolutely opposed to anything that might even be considered a discrimination, he should, in common fair- 0 ness, adopt the principle which he then advocated in respect of this item.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

– I intend to vote in favour of extending equal treatment to every employer engaged in the printing business. A little episode occurred last night,’ and I wish to say, as a matter of personal explanation, that I was extremely anxious that nothing should be done which would confer an advantage upon the metropolitan newspaper proprietors, as compared with their country brethren. I believe that in a full Committee the vote would go in favour of the country press. Had a division been taken last evening, however, I am satisfied that it would have gone against the country press.. It was for that reason that I voluntarily left the chamber. I might have been seen walking out of the vestibule arm-in-arm with the honorable member for Capricornia. I absolutely deny the suggestion that I was forcibly detained outside the chamber. In regard to the item immediately under consideration, it is incumbent upon me to do all that I possibly can to prevent Tariff discrimination in favour of the city press. I shall therefore vote for the lowest possible rate of duty.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- When this item was being discussed this morning, many honorable members were labouring under a misapprehension. Indeed, I believe that a majority still imagine that it relates to news printing ink. As a matter of fact, it does not. It relates to printing and stencilling inks, n.e.i., news printing ink being specifically mentioned in the next item. The honorable member for Capricornia has stated that “ printing and stencilling inks can be purchased for 3d. per lb.

Mr Archer:

– I said that the ink used by the large printing firms can. be purchased for that amount.

Mr TUDOR:

– As a matter of fact, it cannot. The ink with which we are now dealing is known as letterpress ink and lithographic and printing ink, and is used in connexion with the better class of printing.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is the ink that is used in country newspaper offices.

Mr TUDOR:

– The honorable member for South Sydney and the honorable member for Hindmarsh, who are practical printers, declare that that is not the case.

Mr Crouch:

– What about the inclusion of the words, “ and in packages of not less than 1 cwt.” in item 355?

Mr TUDOR:

– The Treasurer has promised to eliminate those words, but I am not sure that in so doing he will be taking a wise step. I hold in my hand the catalogue of an English firm, which quotes the cost of the various classes of ink with which we are now dealing. As regards black letterpress inks, the prices per dozen lbs. run as follow : - Poster from 4s. to i2s., jobbing, from 9s. to 18s., book work from 12s. to 30s., and blueblack from 18s. to 60s.

Mr Archer:

– The honorable member is not quoting the prices of news printing ink.

Mr TUDOR:

– I am quoting the prices or ordinary printing and stencilling inks, which come under this item, whereas news . printing ink comes under the next item. If we take the. other colours of printing ink, which are admitted by every one to be more expensive, we find that the price of red runs from 12s. to 36s. per dozen lbs., blue from 3s. to 7s. 6d. per lb., magenta, maroon, and others from 3s. 6d. to 10s. per lb., and cobalt 30s. per lb. The prices of the inks vary, and that is the reason why a differential duty has been proposed. I believe that had this information been known to honorable members generally last night there would not have been a misunderstanding, and we should not now be dealing with the duty on the ink which is used by the newspapers in the electorate of the honorable member for Capricornia. I am just as anxious as any one to safeguard the interests of small country newspapers. I suppose that more country newspapers are printed in my electorate than in an other, because all the supplements for the country press of Victoria are printed there.

Mr McWilliams:

– Is printing or stencilling ink made here?

Mr TUDOR:

– The better class of ink is made in Melbourne. Within half a mile of this building the honorable member can procure locally-made ink up to10s. per lb. The colours and the oils are imported, and bear a duty. The proposal of the Government is only fair to the makers of the higher classes of ink. I suggest that the Committee should agree to. the proposal of the Government regarding this item, and deal with the question of news printing ink on the next item.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- In view of the growth of illustrations the ink industry will expand rapidly. It ought to find occupation for a large number of persons. I was not in the Chamber when the honorable member for Capricornia was speaking, but I understand that he is under the impression that this item deals with the ink used by newspapers.

Mr Archer:

– I can only tell the honorable member that, under this item, proprietors of newspapers are paying a duty equal to 100 per cent. on the ink which they use in printing them.

Mr Watson:

– They do not use this kind of ink in printing their newspapers.

Mr MAHON:

– A newspaper publishing illustrations, such as those I hold in my hand, would use the. ink which is covered by this item, but not an ordinary newspaper. I hope that the Government will adhere to the duty on these inks, which are fairly expensive and can be made here. Their manufacture already gives employment to a large number of persons, and promises to provide additional employment. There is notthe slightest reason why the duty should be lowered if the Government mean to give any encouragement to the industry.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member hopes that they will stick to the duty of 6d. per lb. on this ink.

Mr MAHON:

– I do as it is not a oneman industry, The ink is made in Melbourne, Sydney, and other places throughout Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I thought that the honorable member did not believe in high duties.

Mr MAHON:

– I do not call this a high duty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is over100 per cent.

Mr MAHON:

– The honorable member is making a mistake.

Colonel Foxton. - Not at all. Here is a receipt for the duty, showing that it is equal to 98 per cent, on the value of the article.

Mr MAHON:

– That may be for an inferior class of ink.

Colonel Foxton. - That duty was paid on the ink used in printing the Rockhampton Bulletin.

Mr MAHON:

– Everything that is used in Queensland must, apparently, be allowed to come in at a low duty.

Mr Archer:

– The point is that, with the exception of writing ink, any ink costing over 3d. per lb., no matter whether it be printing, news printing, or other sort of ink’, will come in under item 354.

Mr MAHON:

– All the Inks to which the honorable member refers are expensive.

Mr Archer:

– Some of them cost over 3d. per lb.

Mr MAHON:

– The duty is not excessive. As one who knows something about this business, I urge the Government to stick to this duty.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

.- Unfortunately, I was not present this morning when that regrettable incident took place which prevented this item from being dealt with. As I had been travelling all day, I paired with the honorable member for Moreton, and went home. I understood at the time that he was in favour of allowing ink to come in at a lower rate, but whether he meant the ink covered by this item, or the ink covered by the next item, I cannot say definitely. It is certain, however, that the proprietor of a small newspaper has had to pay a duty equal to 100 per cent, on the ink which he has imported under item 355, and which has cost him more than 3d. per lb. There is no getting away from that fact.

Mr McDougall:

– But, according to the honorable member’s argument, the duty is always passed on to the consumer.

Mr WILSON:

– The honorable member ought to have sense enough to know that in the case of newspapers a duty cannot be passed on, except, perhaps, to the advertiser. . The reader certainly cannot be charged1¼d. for a penny newspaper. I know that the honorable member is an authority on some questions connected with newspapers. For instance, he has published a series of his verses in the newspapers.

Mr Page:

– No fear, he did not publish them.

Mr Watson:

– They were very good verses, anyhow.

Mr WILSON:

– If that is the honorable member’s view, I make him a present of the verses.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Will the honorable member address his remarks to the item?

Mr WILSON:

– I submit, sir, that my remarks are entirely relevant, because the item deals generally with the question of printing ink, and, incidentally, with ink slinging. Of course, the particular kind of ink that is “slung” when one is writing prose or verse is a. writing ink.

Mr Page:

– The honorable member should try his hand with it.

Mr WILSON:

– Some day I may write an ode to the honorable member for Maranoa.

Mr Page:

– I hope not.

Mr WILSON:

– But I trust that the honorable member will have gone to his last resting-place before I do. Otherwise my verses would soon drive him there. I think that the Treasurer ought to allow the item to be recommitted in order that the Committeemay be able to express an opinion as to whether the duties of 6½d. and 6d. per lb. should not be left out’ with a view to fixing an ad valorem duty. The Minister might very well agree to ad valorem duties of 30 and 25 per cent. Does he want to impose a duty amounting to 100 per cent, upon ink that is used by newspaper proprietors in small country towns? A letter in my possession proves that a man in a country town has actually paid duty amounting to 100 per cent. I presume that he did not import ink to drink it. He bought it to use in his office. This and the next item place those who use ink at under 3d. per lb. at a decided advantage as compared with those who use ink at over 3d. If the Treasurer will allow the item to be recommitted, whatever ad valorem duty is imposed by the Committee we will willingly accept.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Committee has already decided to leave in the words which the honorable member desires to have struck out.

Mr WILSON:

– There was a regrettable incident at about 2 o’clock this morning which proved that there was not a quorum present when a division was taken.

Mr Wise:

– There was.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must not discuss that point.

Mr WILSON:

– The item was not dealt with when there were a sufficient number of honorable members present to decide the duty properly. I wish to secure an opportunity for a full Committee to express an opinion as to whether a fixed or an ad valorem duty should be imposed. With that object I wish to move that the item be recommitted.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member cannot move to that effect at this stage.

Mr WATSON:
South Sydney

.- There has been a good deal of talk amongst honorable members about placing small and large newspapers on the same footing. It appears to me that remarks of that character in relation to the present item indicate a false assumption.

Whether the duty should be 6d. per lb. or 30 and . 25 per cent, ad valorem is a question quite apart from the assumption that the duty as proposed differentiates between small and large newspapers. It does nothing of the sort. News printing ink, whether used on a rotary machine by the proprietor of a large newspaper, or on a Wharfdale machine by the proprietor of a small newspaper, is just the same class of news ink.

Mr McWilliams:

– It is possible to use a lower quality of ink on stereo than on straight type, as the honorable member ought to know.

Mr WATSON:

– As long as it is employed on a letterpress machine, the same class of ink can be used for the printing of a small or a large newspaper.

Mr McWilliams:

– All the large newspapers stereo. They do not print from type.

Mr WATSON:

– That does not make any essential difference.

Mr McWilliams:

– Yes; it does.

Mr WATSON:

– When I speak of letterpress, I mean the term to include stereotype matter. Of course, in jobbing work, and in printing illustrations, a better class of ink must be used, as well as a better class of paper, whilst there must be more careful machining. It is impossible to work at the same speed when doing such work as the illustrated portion of the Australasian or the Sydney Mail, or in printing a newspaper like the Bulletin, as in printing an ordinary newspaper. Good ink must be used, and there must be careful machining. But a country newspaper and a city newspaper can use the same class of ink for letterpress work. The universal practice of the proprietors of country newspapers, so far as my knowledge of their methods goes, is to order their ink from one or other of the printers’ furnishing houses like Cowan and Company, or Wimble, who import in large quantities. The newspaper proprietors do not import directly, but buy their ink as they want it. It is not worth their while to import. In fact, it is only the largest newspaper proprietors who bother to import directly.

Mr McWilliams:

– The honorable member knows that the duty will be passed on to the man who buys.

Mr WATSON:

– Quite so; I am quite aware of that. But so far as the question of the packages is concerned, the rate at which the small newspaper men will get their ink will not be affected.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Why should we have a duty amounting to 150 per cent. for the cheaper ink, and only 25 per cent. for expensive ink?

Mr WATSON:

– The honorable member has put the case in the wrong way. The lower duty is on the cheap ink, that is merely used for newspaper purposes ; but the superior class of ink is used for jobbing and for printing illustrations and special work. Inks must be over a certain value before the extra duty is imposed.

Mr Wilson:

– Thirty people at least have had to pay 6d. per lb. on ink costing 3d. per lb.

Mr WATSON:

– Just so.

Mr Archer:

– For newspaper purposes.

Mr WATSON:

– I have not heard of a newspaper proprietor who pays 3d. per lb. for newspaper ink. They may use it for jobbing purposes, but for newspaper purposes, I have not heard of such a case.

Mr Wilson:

– I can prove it to the honorable member.

Mr WATSON:

– I should say that the honorable member’s friend is a very foolish man if he uses ink at 3d. per lb. for that purpose.

Mr McWilliams:

– The honorable membei for Yarra quoted a case.

Mr WATSON:

– That was in relation to special ink for jobbing purposes.

Mr Frazer:

– If we can make the expensive inks in Australia, can we not make the cheaper classes?

Mr WATSON:

– We might be able to do so, but not very readily. News printing ink. in order to be dutiable at the lower rate, must be invoiced at less than 3d. per lb. in the country of origin, and since it is sold in Melbourne and Sydney at 3½d. per lb. after payment of freight and other charges, it should not be difficult to import it at less than 3d. per lb.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– This duty is 6d. per lb., not 6d. per cwt.

Mr WATSON:

– That is so; but some printing inks are very expensive, and it would be an easy matter to deceivet he Customs Department as to their value. Manufacturers of ink in Australia, of whom there is quite a number, haveto pay a fairly heavy duty on some, at all events, of their raw material.

Mr Archer:

– They have not to pay a duty of 100 per cent., like that imposed upon this ink.

Mr WATSON:

– It is not 100 percent.

Mr Archer:

– I shall prove that the duty is more than 100 per cent.

Mr WATSON:

– I prefer to be guided by my own knowledge of the trade, rather than by any statement on the part of” others. Ink used for news printing purposes will come in under item 355.

Mr Archer:

– That is a mere assertion.

Mr WATSON:

– I happen to know a little about the printing trade, and I have no hesitation in making this statement. Printing ink manufacturers in Australiai have to pay a duty of 6d. per gallon on Jinseed oil, which at present is not being; produced in any quantity in Australia.

Mr Archer:

– We do not grudge them a duty of 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, on the finished article.

Mr WATSON:

– I do not think that those duties are sufficient in the case of the better classes of ink. The possibility of” arranging invoices is such that printing- inks have been known to come in at rates; far below their true value. The statement that this proposal will be an unfair handicap on country newspapers is utterly without foundation. I do not care very much whether a fair ad valorem or a fixed duty is carried, but I do not think that a. duty of 25 per cent, will be sufficient.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

– I feel confident that had the Government in framing the Tariff put all inks in the one item, the position would have been different. There would ‘certainly have been a great hubbub raised outside, for there is a very distinct difference between inks: used even for the rougher classes of job printing and ordinary news printing ink. It would appear that the honorable member for Corangamite has a friend who has been buying high-class job printing ink.

Mr Wilson:

– No; he purchased the ink for printing a newspaper.

Mr SPENCE:

– Apparently he has purchased for that purpose ink generally used for job printing. I do not know why we should disarrange the Tariff because some one has been so foolish as to use high-class job printing inks for newspaper printing purposes.

Mr Archer:

– Did not the honorable member say last night that it would be just to impose a level duty?

Mr SPENCE:

– I supported the imposition of a fixed as well as an ad valorem duty, saying that the Customs officers could not determine the true value of printing inks. There are some inks which even an amateur would recognise as being of high quality, and to those the ad valorem duty, as being the higher of the two duties, would apply.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If that is the whole trouble, let us try a lower instead of a higher duty.

Mr SPENCE:

– I .understand that the fixed duty has been paassed.

Mr Wilson:

– No.

Sir William Lyne:

– It was decided last night that there should be a fixed duty.

Mr Archer:

– On a minority division.

Mr SPENCE:

– Then I hope the Treasurer will stand by his proposal. It is asserted on the very best authority - and I think that the statement will be supported by officers of the Department - that it is difficult to assess the true value of job printing inks.

Mr Archer:

– I understand that the Customs officers deny the statement. Has the honorable member obtained his information from the Department?

Mr SPENCE:

– No; but I think it will be borne out by the Department. It is necessary to have a fixed duty to keep out the cheap rubbish.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The honorable member does not seem to recognise that the Government propose an ad valorem duty on both items.

Mr SPENCE:

– I am supporting the line as it stands. These inks will be subject to an ad valorem duty as well as a fixed duty, and whichever is the higher duty will have to be paid. Printing ink of first class quality is being made in the Commonwealth, and we should give the manufacturers the ‘ protection that other industries have secured. The honorable member for South Sydney has clearly shown that news printing ink is altogether different from that used for job printing purposes ; and I fail to see how ‘the Tariff could have been better framed to give full consideration to all parties concerned. There is nothing to complain about. It may be that some one has been called upon to pay duty under the wrong item - that some one has paid the higher duty on news ink - but such a mistake is not likely to be made very often.

Mr Archer:

– Nevertheless, it is done.

Mr SPENCE:

– The honorable member seems to know of a case, but I do not think that any one else does. Most practical printers will say that these two inks are used for different kinds of work. Printing ink made locally does good work. I know an establishment where tons of Australian ink are used, and it gives every satisfaction.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- As we had a long discussion on the subject of inks at the last sitting, and honorable members seem to have pretty well made up their minds, I hope that the debate will not be prolonged. The Minister has agreed to omit the limitation regarding packages ot not less than 1 cwt., and he is also inclined to accept a compromise which I suggested, making the duties sd. and 4jd. per lb. I shall vote for those rates.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I have a suggestion to make which, if adopted, will, I think, meet the case put by the honorable member for Capricornia and others. It is to substitute the figure 6dfor the figure 3d. in item 355.

Mr Archer:

– Why not impose the same duty on all printing inks ?

Mr MAHON:

– I am going more than half way to meet the honorable member. He complains that certain ink is dutiable under item 354 at over 100 per cent, ad valorem, but if the alteration which I suggest is made) such ink will be dutiable as news printing ink invoiced at .under 6d. per lb. The proposed alteration should be acceptable to all parties.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think that the suggestion of the honorable member for Coolgardie does not meet the difficulty. It assumes that items 354 and 355 deal only with such printing inks as are used for country newspapers. Does the honorable member propose the omission of the words “ and in packages of not less than 1 cwt.” ?

Mr Crouch:

– The Minister has agreed to the omission of those words.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Notwithstanding what has been said by the honorable members for South Sydney and Coolgardie, one of whom was formerly engaged in the setting of type, and the other in reporting for newspapers, those whose business it is to sell ink take a different view. A wellknown firm, which deals largely in this commodity, has written to me on the subject in these terms -

Please bear in mind that all inks used by the larger newspapers come out in big casks, varying from 3 cwt. to 4 cwt., and it is really a different kind of ink to that used by the smaller newspapers ; it is what is called Rotary Ink, and is used for orinting newspapers on the big rotary machines - altogether different to that used by the smaller newspapers on their flat-bed machines. The majority of the newspapers in Australia use the stiffer ink, and it is invariably sold to them in tins varying from 12 lbs. up to½ cwt. tins or packages. The smaller newspapers could not take large packages because it would take them so long a time to use it up, and dust and dirt gets into the ink and spoils it - hence their reason for getting the small packages.

The average price the smaller newspapers pay for their ink is over 3d. Under the proposed item they would have to pay - according to my reading of this item - a duty of 6d. per lb. for British-made ink. Assuming, therefore, they are paying 4d. per lb. now for their ink, it would cost them to use this British-made ink 9d. to10d. per lb.

Mr Crouch:

– Does not that letter speak of the average price of ink as 4d. per lb. ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Between 3d. and 4d. per lb.

Mr Crouch:

– Then the proposed amendment would meet the firm concerned ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The firm in question desires that the ink which we are now considering shall be reduced in duty, so that the country newspapers may not have to pay too highly for it. They cannot use the inferior ink which is used in connexion with the large rotary machines in the offices of the big metropolitan dailies. I hope that the duty will be reduced.

Mr ARCHER:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ANTI-SOC

.- We have had a great deal of what is assumed to be expert evidence from certain members of the Committee who have been connected with the printing trade. I do not know in what capacity they were connected with it, but admittedly some of them have not been connected with the trade for many years, and it is quite possible that important changes mav have taken place in the meantime. However that may be, I have facts to bring before the Committee which absolutely refute many of the statements that have been made. The proprietors of a certain newspaper - and though I have authority to do so I need not mention the name unless honorable members desire it - have in bond 2,000 lbs. of ink invoiced at 3d. per lb., of which they have not yet been able to get possession because of this duty of 6½d. per lb., which is equivalent to an impost of 213 per cent. I askthe Minister to say whether that statement is not a fact.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not know. I never heard of it.

Mr Mahon:

– I should say that it is an error.

Mr ARCHER:

– I can say that it is a fact.

Mr Watson:

– How can the honorable member say for what purpose the ink referred to is to be used?

Mr ARCHER:

– It is intended to be used for the printing of the War-Cry.

Mr Watson:

-The proprietors of the War-Cry do a lot of jobbing printing.

Mr ARCHER:

– I think I can take the word of the people who imported the ink as to the purpose for which it was imported.

Mr Mauger:

– They should use ink made in Australia.

Mr Crouch:

– Is it imported from Japan, or where?

Mr ARCHER:

– I do not know where it was imported from. It is what is called the “ news “ quality of ink, and I should like to ask the honorable member for South Sydney to say whether that is not the quality ofink commonly used for the printing of newspapers.

Mr Watson:

– Yes, it is.

Mr ARCHER:

– This ink is invoiced at 3d. per lb., and those who have imported it cannot get it out of bond unless they pay a duty of 6½d. per lb. on it. That fact completely justifies the stand honorable members on this side have taken in this matter. I know the proprietors of other newspapers complain that they cannotget the ink they require without paying a duty equivalent to anything from 100 per cent. up to 250 per cent. That is a gross injustice, but I have little hope that the Minister will be prepared to recommit the item.

Mr Crouch:

– The proposed amendment will meet the honorable member’s objection.

Mr ARCHER:

– It might to a certain extent, but in the first place I say that the duties are too high ; in the next place I do not believe in fixed duties at all ; and in the third place, if we are to do anything in this matter, we should in the next item strike out the weight limit, which I understand the Minister said last night tie was prepared to do.

Sir William Lyne:

– I was prepared to do that last night.

Mr ARCHER:

– It is only the proprietors of very big newspapers who can afford to import this ink in large quantities, because if it has to be kept for any length of time it deteriorates in value. I have mentioned a fact which cannot be disputed - that an ink imported for the purpose of printing a newspaper cannot be got out of bond except on the payment of duty representing 233 per cent. on the invoice price.

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

– The matter referred to by the honorable member for Capricornia has no bearing upon the first item. But I should like to say that I think no great hardship is done to the proprietors of the War-Cry when it is remembered that they might have procured the ink they require right on the spot.

Mr Chanter:

– The subscribers to their newspaper are here.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– That is so. I shall be very glad if in the future, as a result of the duty, they are obliged to look inside the Commonwealth for their ink as well as for their pennies. That would be only a fair thing, and, in fact, it is the whole purpose of the duty to bring that state of affairs about. Those who say that the more highly-priced inks are required for the printing of country newspapers know nothing about the business.

Mr Archer:

– That is a silly, wild, statement to make.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– I have been connected with the printing trade for over thirty-five years; and as an employer in the trade for many years I have used a good deal of Australian ink.

Mr Archer:

– The men who are importing ink have also been in the trade for thirty-five years, and are in it still.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– I have used ink imported from the Old Country, and I have also used Wimble’s inks. I have found Wimble’s cheap inks good enough for the printing of newspapers, and equal to what I could get abroad for the same purpose. I was not, of course, in a big way of business, and if I required a small quantity of ink of a certain quality I had to pay a little more for it; but the ordi nary news ink is imported in large quantities even by small printing concerns. It would be absurd to use a first-class ink for the printing of a newspaper.

Mr McWilliams:

– Would the honorable member use the same ink on a stereo., that is used only once, as on type that is used for over twelve months?

Mr HUTCHISON:

– Very often.

Mr McWilliams:

– Then the honorable member does not know much about the business, no matter how long he has been in the trade.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– We could not expect good work with cheap ink on poor paper. -The quality of the paper must be taken into account; and good rolled paper would be required on which to produce illustrations effectively. I should be inclined to favour the amendment of the honorable member for Coolgardie; but I think the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, 6d. per lb., or 25 per cent., whichever is higher, is a reasonable one. There are extraordinary variations in the prices of inks. I have here a price-list from T. Bigsby and Son, of London, in which quotations are given for what purports to be first-class coloured inks. I find that ultramarine blue is quoted atis. for letterpress ink and is. 6d. for lithograph ink. I maintain that that is pure dumping. I have here also the price-list of Slater and Palmer, of London, which was referred to by the honorable member for Yarra. Their price for ultramarine blue is 5s. for letterpress ink, and 6s. for lithograph ink of the best quality. They quote prices for another quality of ink of the same shade - letterpress 3s. 6d., lithograph 4s. 6d. per lb. I can defy, not merely any Customs officer, but any printer or even any ink manufacturer, to tell me, on seeing printing done by a first-class printer on first-class paper with a first-class machine, whether the price of the ink used was is. 6d., 3s. 6d., or 4s. 6d. per lb. We can produce all the inks Ave require in Australia if we give our local manufacturers sufficient protection. I am sorry that the recommendation of the Tariff Commission was not adopted. I think in the circumstances it would be better to leave this item as it stands, and to fix the duties on the next item at 5d. and 4½d.

Sir William Lyne:

– I am prepared to do that.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– We should do what we can to assist an industry that has already been established in the Commonwealth, but which would be destroyed if the views of honorable members opposite were given effect to.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– We have had a very long debate on this matter last night and to-day. I think it is my duty to stand by the duties as proposed, and to carry them or duties as nearly their equivalent as possible. I admit that those who have been nearly all their lives intimately connected with the working of newspapers should know something about what is necessary. The duties set out in the Tariff have been proposed at the instance of those who are supposed to know whatthey are talking about.

Mr Archer:

– The manufacturers of ink.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Indeed, no. I think all parties concerned were consulted by the Comptroller-General, and I believe there was no objection urged against the proposal made in the Tariff. I wish to point out that this proposal emanated in the first place from the A section of the Tariff Commission.

Mr Archer:

– From the manufacturers again.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– No, from the evidence.

Mr Archer:

– Of the manufacturers. The consumers never had a say.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I should not like to say that. As I have never had much to do with ink-slinging, I do not profess to understand the technical details connected with this question. But I could not accept the proposal made last night, as it would involve practically the remission of the duty altogether.

Mr Archer:

– Even though the Department had no objection.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not know whether the officers of the Department had any objection to the proposal last night or not. I had to Be guided by the Tariff before me ; . and although the honorable member might have thought there was something personal in what happened, as a matter of fact it was not so, and I was merely standing by the duty proposed by the Government on recommendations made by experts. I am, however, glad to have heard the debate to-day, and am quite prepared to accept suggestions from those who know something of the subject.

Mr Archer:

– Thatis why we wished to have the matter postponed until to-day.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That was not the reason which actuated honorable members; but I have no wish to refer to last night’s proceedings when to do so might give rise to heated feeling. There must be a mistake somewhere, because the honorable member for Capricornia has stated several times that the Rochhampton Bulletin purchases this high-class ink for its ordinary printing, whereas I am advised that it is used for only very highclass work. The magnificent work in a little catalogue which I held in my hand just now - one of the best I ever sawwas done with very high-class ink. Honorable members who have expert knowledge of this matter assure me that if I amend the next item by raising the invoice value mentioned in it from 3d. to 6d. per lb., it ought to obviate all the objection that has been taken to this item.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– No, it will not.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– At any rate, I am quite prepared to take that course. The honorable member for Capricornia must not imagine that I desire to injure or interfere with country newspapers, but all the information that I have from experts is that my proposal would not have that effect.

Mr Archer:

– Not if the invoice price is raised from 3d. to 6d., and the cwt. limit, which is just as important, is also struck out.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not think there is much in that.

Mr Archer:

– There is a great deal in it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I was agreeable to do it early this morning. If the honorable member had not rushed away in such a hurry, he would haveheard me say so two or three seconds afterwards.

Mr Archer:

– I could not get the Minister to speak.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I was anxious to get to the end of this division, and therefore did not say much. No matter what I said, the honorable member would have argued that I was wrong. He must admit that the honorable members for South Sydney, Hindmarsh, and Coolgardie, who have spoken to-day, know what they are talking about. They all support the duty which has been proposed by the Government, and recommended by the Tariff Commission.

Mr Archer:

– With the alteration of the invoice value in the next item from 3d. to 6d.?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes. I hope the debate will not be greatly prolonged. I shall be quite prepared when we reach the next item to do what I have said. I ask honorable members to allow this item to pass, because we have a great deal of work to do. If honorable members will make reasonable progress I have no desire to keep the House sitting until the small hours of the morning. It is not a good thing to do, but I have been forced into that position in order to get a certain amount of work done. If the work is got through, I want the House to rise at a reasonably early hour to-night, meet to-morrow, and probably finish the whole Tariff, because we are near the end of it. With a solid determination on the part of honorable members to achieve that result, I think we can do it without sitting into the small hours. I have here a letter from Messrs. R. Collie and Company, who state -

We give the quantities of news ink, purchased from us, by some of our clients, country newspapers, who draw all their supplies from us : -

Cornish r., “ Star,” Woodend, 3x1 doz. lbs., at 6d.

Boardman, A.F., “News,” Sunbury, 2x1 doz. lbs., at 6d.

Ward, G. W., “Times,” Horsham, 2 x½ cwts.at4½d.

Allen, r!, “Leader,” Talbot, 2 x 28 lbs., at 4d.

Rossiter Bros, and Co., “ Standard,” Yar- ram, 2 x½ cwts., at5d.

Rossiter Bros, and Co., “Star,” Leongatha, 1 x 1 doz. lbs., at 6d.

Rossiter Bros, and Co., “Mirror,” Foster, 1 x 28 lbs., at5½d.

Robertson and Co., “Mail,” Castlemaine, 2 x1 cwts., at 4d.

We could give many more similar instances.

That shows that extraordinary prices are not charged for news ink, and that those newspapers are using the Colonial article in preference to the imported. It also proves that country newspapers, if they so desire, can get their news ink made here instead of purchasing the imported. I only received that letter this morning, and I quote it because it shows that the ink is being made here, and is used exclusively by a number of country newspapers.

Mr Wilks:

– The same firm complain about the tax on the raw material.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I believe they do. I understand that the tax on the raw material checks to some extent the profitable local manufacture of news ink.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– While the Minister is adjusting - I believe fairly satisfactorily - item 355, he is still retaining excessive duties on this item. I believe that what the Minister proposes to do regarding news printing ink will be sufficient.

Sir William Lyne:

– If the newspaper proprietors choose, they can get a good deal of printing ink under the next item as news printing ink.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– No, because it must be news printing ink.

Mr Fisher:

– If it is invoiced for job printing it will be charged 6½d. a lb. What an imposition !

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The honorable member for Coolgardie says that news printing ink cannot be distinguished from other printing inks. I will accept him as an authority, but we have to deal with the Tariff as it stands.

Mr Mahon:

– The word “news” ought to come out of the next item. I shall move accordingly.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– My objection to the duty of 6½d. proposed by the Minister on this item is that, as a large proportion of the inks come in at between 6d. and is. per lb., it will be over 100 per cent. on the 6d. inks, while it will be over 50 per cent, on the is. inks. Those are exceedingly high duties.

Mr Fisher:

– Where is the justification for the composite duty proposed?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– There should not be a composite duty. The Minister said himself that he did not like them, and we have struck them out so far.

Mr Mahon:

– How would the honorable member meet the difficulty that the Customs officer could not tell the value of the ink, and could not check the invoice, whether it was a.1s. or 6d. ink?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– That remark raises a difficulty as against ad valorem rates. I believe the Department can check the invoices in this as well as they can in other cases.

Mr Fisher:

– They can do it as easily as in the case of the quantity of wool in certain goods.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– If that difficulty arises with ad valorem rates, we are thrown back on to fixed rates, but both ad valorem and fixed rates are proposed by the Government in this item. The Department have first of all to charge the fixed duty, and then have to make its application subject to a value which they have to check;

Then they have to submit the importation to another assessment - ad valorem - for every1d. per lb. upwards. Consequently, they must use the ad valorem system. While I object to the alternative duty, my principal objection to the item is the excessive rates which I have pointed out. I shall support the amende ment.to make the duty 4d. per lb., which even then will mean 66 per. cent, on 6d. inks, and 33 per cent, on is. inks.

Mr Mahon:

– Would it not be better to go straight for ad valorem duties ?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I think so, but we cannot do so now after the tangle we got into this morning, when a motion to that effect was rejected.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

.- The local ink is, in most cases, from my own experience, better than the imported at the price. So far as higher-class inks are concerned, we can get the locally-made article at a lower price than the imported, and of equal value, while it has the distinct advantage that there is no deterioration. There is no surface caking, as the ink is got fresh from the mixer. We are justified, from every point of view, in imposing a duty on imported inks. There is very little risk of undue advantage being taken of the duties proposed, because there are several firms engaged in the manufacture of ink locally. I have it on the authority of at least one manufacturer in Sydney, that he is well satisfied with the present duties, without increasing prices, as he can now retain his present market.

Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay

.- Nothing could be more satisfactory than the statement by the honorable member for Macquarie, that the inks made here are of good quality, and a credit to Australia. The point is, however, that a. composite duty may penalize certain inks. An ad valorem duty would have been much more acceptable. As to the Customs officers discovering whether high-quality inks are introduced at the lower rate, there will be no more difficulty than there is in discovering whether cotton goods are being brought in as woollen goods. In either case, the services of an analyst has to be obtained.

Mr Carr:

– The higher quality inks are nearly always done up in small packets.

Mr FISHER:

– That is so. I have both seen and purchased them. The honorable member for Coolgardie intends to move an amendment to omit the word “ news,” and that is quite proper, because so long as it remains we can do nothing ; the inks must be described as job printing, and so forth, of certain colours and qualities. In my opinion a composite duty is mischievous, and always leads to trouble.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- I have listened to the arguments on both sides very carefully, and, I hope, with a fair and open mind; and I have not heard the scheme of duties submitted by the Commission successfully challengedup to the present, except in one detail. This was referred to by the honorable member for Coolgardie, who has proposed to increase the invoiced amount in item 355 from3d. to 6d. That amendment will, I think, enlarge the area of the ad valorem rate, and meet most of the difficulties suggested. I should like to point out to the honorable member for Wide Bay that the fixed duty, or art ad valorem duty, whichever is the higher, cannot be described as a composite duty in the accepted sense of the word. A composite duty is a combination of duties - that is a duty, plus a duty- whereas the duty under discussion is an alternative duty, which is justified in certain cases. The higher fixed duty of 6d. per lb. is intended to operate on low-grade inks which it might be difficult to analyze and classify, and which must cause the Customs officers difficulty in checking. A firm generally includes in its orders various grades of ink, low grade, medium, and high grade; and the evidence given before the Commission shows that the average price is about 2s. 6d. per lb. The fixed duty of 6d. is intended to operate on the average as represented by the 2s. 6d. per lb. ; and it is not fair to say that it will mean 100 per cent. The ad valorem duty is intended to operate when the inks are above the average I have just mentioned. The fixed duty of 6d. per lb. might be infinitesimal in the case of high-class inks, worth from 5s. to 6s. per lb.

Mr Archer:

– Is it not a fact that 75 per cent. or 80 per cent, of the inks used are of the lower value?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Not in reference to the item in which the fixed duty is imposed, and which is intended to cover the superior grades of ink. The lower classes of ink averaging from 3d. to 5d. per lb. are brought under the ad valorem rate in item 355. The portion of the report of the Commission having reference to this matter may be found on page 322 of volume 6, and is based on the evidence of Mr. R. Collie, the Melbourne manufacturer, whose proposals were supported by a Sydney manufacturer. The Tariff Commission considered that those proposals embodied a fair and reasonable scheme, which distributes over various grades of inks a certain incidence of taxation according to quality and value. If we had a common standard it would be complained that we were taxing the poor and cheap inks as highly as the superior inks. So far as I am concerned’, I have not received any complaint from printers in my electorate about the duties, and I believe that the great fuss and noise is being made, not by printers, but by the Melbourne importers.

Mr Archer:

– That is absolutely incorrect so far as I am concerned.

Question - That after the figures “ 6½d. “ the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per lb. “(General Tariff) 4d.” (Mr. Archer’s amendment), be inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 26

NOES: 31

Majority … … 5

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Storrer) proposed -

That after the figures “6½d.” the words. “ and on and after11th December, 1907, per lb. (General Tariff),5d.,” be inserted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I hope the honorable member will not press the amendment. When I said that I would agree to a duty of5d. there was no idea of making the invoice price 6d. in the next item. I should like the duty to remain as it is in order to preserve the symmetry of the Tariff. I have agreed to everything that those who understand the business think is necessary, and the arrangement seems to be acceptable to the Committee.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 26

NOES: 30

Majority … … 4

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Wilson) put -

That after figure “6d.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, per lb. (United Kingdom), 4d.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 27

NOES: 31

Majority … … 4

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Item agreed to.

Item 355. News Printing Ink, invoiced at under 3d. per lb., and in packages of not less than 1 cwt., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I move -

That the word “News” be left out.

I think that my proposal will meet the views of a number of honorable members opposite, who have objected to the high rate of duty that certain printing inks will have to pay under item 354.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Mahon) proposed -

That the words “ under 3d.” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ 6d, and under.”

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

– The vote which has just been taken means that a printing ink invoiced at 8d. per lb. will be required to pay a duty of 6d. per lb. Similarly, an ink which is invoiced at is. per lb. will be subjected to an impost of 6d. per lb. That means that there will be a duty of 50 per cent, on the ink.

Sir William Lyne:

– The honorable member cannot debate that item, as it has been passed.

Mr WILSON:

– I am only making a comparison between the two items. I think that instead of using the expression “invoiced at 6d. and under per lb.,” as desired by the honorable member for Coolgardie, it would be better to use the expression “ invoiced at is. and under per lb.,” and the article would then come in at 30 and 25 per cent., according to the country of origin. I move -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the figure “6d.,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figure “is.”

Question - That the figure “6d.” proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed amendment (Mr. Wilson’s amendment of Mr. Mahon’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 35

NOES: 20

Majority … … 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

– There seems to have been a mysterious misunderstanding when the last division was taken. Many honorable members were not aware of what the actual question was, or what the effect of their vote would be. The honorable member for Coolgardie wants to bring all printing ink invoiced at 6d. and under per lb. under an ad valorem duty of 30 or 25 per cent., according to the country of origin, so that all European or American inks invoiced at 6½d. per lb. would have to pay a duty equal to 100 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr WILSON:

– TheTreasurer cannot get away from that fact. If ink is invoiced at 6½d. per lb. in Europe or America, and theduty is fixed at 6½d. per lb. inthe general Tariff, it will be taxed at the rate of 100 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– That is when it is invoiced at over 6d. per lb.

Mr WILSON:

– Does the honorable gentleman admit that the duty will beequal to 100 per cent. ?

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not say that it is 100 per cent. ; but the ink would have to pay the fixed duty.

Mr WILSON:

– If the ink is invoiced at 6½d. per lb., and the duty is 6½d. per lb. , what is the rate per cent. ? Honorable members who voted on the other side in the recent division voted for a duty of 100 per cent. For instance, the honorable member for Swan, who is supposed to be in favour of moderate duties, the honorable member for Echuca, the honorable member for Balaclava, the honorable member for Kooyong, and the honorable member for Fremantle, voted for a duty of 100 per cent, on this article.

Sir John Forrest:

– The honorable member should not abuse his friends.

Mr WILSON:

– I want to show the honorable member what he has been doing.

Mr Hedges:

– What is the question before the Chair, sir?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Batchelor:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– The honorable member is not in order in discussing at length the votes of honorable members in the recent division.

Mr WILSON:

– I want those honorable members to realize that they have done a very serious thing.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.That has nothing to do with the proposal now before the Committee.

Mr WILSON:

– I intend to move that the amendment of the honorable member for Coolgardie be amended by substituting the figure “ 9 “ for the figure “” 6.”

Mr Wise:

– I rise to a point of order. Has not the Committee decided that the rate 6d. per lb. shall stand?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– It is not competent for the honorable, member for Corangamite to move that the invoiced rate be 9d., as the Committee has. decided that 6d. shall stand part of, the item.

Mr WILSON:

– My belief was that it was competent in Committee for an honorable member to move a higher figure than that decided upon. With all respect to you, sir, I should like to know whether there is no way of moving to that effect ?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member has no opportunity of proposing the omission of a figure which the Committee has determined shall stand.

Mr WILSON:

– That puts honorable members who want to vote for an increased invoice rate in a very awkward position. The matter is one of considerable importance.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– I cannot allow any discussion on the point.

Mr WILSON:

– If the decision of the Committee is irrevocable I suppose I can do nothing, but I had a great desire to increase the invoice rate under this item and so reduce the duty, which will be a very heavy impost on those who are using printing inks in the country districts.

Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava

.- The honorable member for Corangamite has referred to a certain vote given by me. What I voted for was to assist newspaper proprietors in the country districts. I was advised that if we made the invoice standard 3d. per lb., as the printers of small papers in the country do not import in bulk, they would have to pay a higher rate of duty. I understand that the amendment of the honorable member for Coolgardie raising the exemption from 3d. to 6d. allows printers of country newspapers to get their material in at the same rate of duty as is paid by the proprietors of the large newspapers in the big centres. That is what I voted for. I did not vote for anything like 100 per cent, but to reduce charges in favour of those who are not able to carry on their business on the large scale on which businesses are conducted by persons in the populous centres.

Amendment agreed to; words “ 6d. and under” inserted.

Amendment (by Mr. Mahon) agreed to-

That the words “ and in packages of not less than 1 cwt.” be left out.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 356 (Writing ink and ink powders) and item 357 (Ceramic transfers for pottery) agreed to.

Item 358. Kindergarten materials’ prescribed by departmental by-laws, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- I understand that a considerable quantity of these kindergarten materials are not imported from the United Kingdom, but from foreign countries. They are used principally in schools, and the duty of 5 per cent, would have the effect of increasing their cost. I therefore move -

That after the words “ 5 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907 (General Tariff), free,” be inserted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HumeTreasurer · Protectionist

– I find that a large proportion of these goods come from Germany.

Mr Wilks:

– Germany is the home of the kindergarten system.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– The item is not an important one, and I do not intend to detain the Committee about it. I will consent to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 359 (Paper patterns) agreed to.

Item 340. Pens, n.e.i., without holders or not including holders, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I move-

That the following new paragraph be inserted : - “ 360B. Inkstands, fountain pens, pencils n.e.i., and rulers, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 oer cent. ; and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.”

When we were dealing with item 353A, I agreed to take out several articles which under that item would have been dutiable at 30 per cent, and 25 per cent., and promised to put them in a separate item dutiable at 5 per cent, under the General Tariff, and free as regards the United Kingdom. I am now carrying out that promise.

Proposed new paragraph agreed to

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the following new paragraph be inserted : - “ 360C. Academy Boards, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.; and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.”

Item 361. Maps, except those of Australiaor any part thereof ; and Charts n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- Why is it proposed to except maps of Australia or any part thereof? It appears to me to be a most peculiar thing that it should be proposed to allow the maps of every other country in the world to come into Australia free when printed in the United Kingdom, whilst we make an exception of maps of the country in which we live, and of which we are all proud.

Mr Salmon:

– Maps of Australia can be printed here.

Sir William Lyne:

– They are being printed here; and we consider that we can print maps of Australia truer and better than they are printed elsewhere.

Mr PAGE:

– That seems to be a good reason.

Item agreed to.

Item 362 (Globes geographical, &c.) agreed to.

Item 363. Parchment, cut and uncut, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- What is the difference between the parchment dealt with in this item and vegetable parchment which we dealt with last night under item 352 ?

Mr Salmon:

– This parchment is made . from skins, and is used for legal documents.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I do not object to the item.

Item agreed to.

Item 364. Photographs sent by friends and not for the purpose of sale, free.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I ask the Committee, to negative this item.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- When the Treasurer proposes to leave out an item I begin to be suspicious. Why is he proposing to take this course? Surely the Committee will not consent to it without an explanation.

Mr Johnson:

– And the Government whip told us that these things would be free.

Sir William Lyne:

– I did not say so.

Mr PAGE:

– I do not think that this is a reasonable proposition, and I hope that the Committee will refuse to negative the item.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- I am glad that the honorable member for Maranoa has unearthed this scheme on the part of the Treasurer. When I inquired what would be the effect of the Treasurer’s proposal, the honorable member for Bourke told me that it was intended to include this item in another one and still make it free.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– And I stand by that statement.

Mr JOHNSON:

– If that be so, why negative this item under which photographs not for sale will be free. The Treasurer, when I referred to the statement made by the Government whip, disclaimed any responsibility for it. This looks very like an attempt by a circuitous method to render Certain photographs liable to a heavy impost.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– This is a dreadful proposal to make! As a matter of fact, I intend to include these’ photographs in item 407, and when we reach that item I shall propose to strike out the words “n.e.i.” appearing after the word ‘ ‘ photographs ‘ ‘. and to substitute the words “ on Australian subjects.” I shall also propose to strike out the words “ postcards (sensitized, with or without letterpress).” The effect of those amendments will be to make free all photographs and post-cards that do not deal with Australian subjects. Our desire is to protect the local photographers - to cause photographic work relating to Australia to be carried out here.

Mr Page:

– I do not mind that.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– If a friend in the Old Country sends a photograph of himself to the honorable member it will come in free.

Mr Page:

– But I think that the item as it stands is satisfactory.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– No; the rearrangement is necessary, and I hope that the honorable member will not object to it.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

– I hope that the Treasurer’s proposal will not be agreed to. The reason given for the proposed alteration seems an absurd one. Does the Minister suggest that his dear old friend Lord Tweedmouth, desiring to send him a photograph, would come to Australia to have it taken in order to encourage an Australian industry? The wording of this item is very dangerous; manv a man has got into trouble through having a photograph “ sent by a friend.”

Mr Page:

– On the understanding that these photographs will be free under another item I shall not press for a division.

Item negatived.

Item 365. School and Drawing Slates; Slate Pencils; and School Colours in boxes, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.; (United Kingdom), free.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the. words “and school colours in boxes” be left out.

These school colours are free under item 329.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 366. Stay Paper and Stay Cloth, gummed on one side, in rolls cut to a width of not more than one inch, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the words “one inch” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “two inches.”

I also propose to move that the duties be reduced to 25 per cent, and 20 per cent. Stay paper and stay cloth are cut in Australia. It has been ascertained, however, that in order to defeat the object of this duty - the encouragement of the local industry - stay paper cut just a shade over an inch in width is being imported, and escapes the duty. To meet that attempt to evade the duty we propose to make dutiable all stay paper up to 2 inches in width.

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

.- In this case we have an enormous jump. Under the old Tariff the item was free, and the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission also recommended that it should be free.

Mr Salmon:

– What was the recommendation of the free-trade section of the Tariff Commission?

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

– We have been told over and over again that no reliance can be placed in the comparative tables placed before us so far as the statements regarding the recommendation of the freetrade section of the Commission are concerned. I do not know why misleading information should be supplied, but I am not prepared to have too much faith in the honesty of some honorable members who are whirling this Tariff through the House. We should have some explanation of the Minister’s action in proposing a duty of 30 per cent., when this material was free under the old Tariff, and the recommendation of the Tariff Commission was that it should remain free.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- I wish to move to make the item free. I have samples of the article here, which I ask the Minister to look at. It is used for binding in the making of paper boxes, and is not made in Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– My expert advisers inform me that it is made in both Melbourne and Sydney.

Mr J H CATTS:

– It is made chiefly by the Stein Machine Company ; those who make the machines manufacture the paper and cloth as well, which, I am told by persons in the trade, are not made in Australia. The samples which I produce are from Mr. Firth’s card-board factory in Sydney, and were imported. The Minister proposes to put a duty only on stay cloth cut to a width of. not more than 2 inches, which I take it would allow it to be imported in bulk free.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– It is proposed to make stay cloth of not more than 2 inches in width dutiable because hitherto an attempt has been made to evade the duty by making it a little over an inch in width. However, as the item is not an important one, and I do not wish to waste time in connexion with its discussion, I shall be willing to agree to a duty of 5 per cent. in the general Tariff, making the article free if imported from Great Britain.

Mr J H Catts:

– It should be free wherever it may come from.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– All these items are in the same category, and therefore I think that we should impose a duty of 5 per cent. in the general Tariff and make the importations from the United Kingdom free.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. J. H. Catts) proposed -

That after the words ‘“30 per cent.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.,” be inserted; and after the words “25 per cent.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907 (United Kingdom), free,” be added.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- As this article is imported wholly from . America, the preference to Great Britain amounts to nothing. It is cut for an American machine which is used here under a royalty, those who use it contracting themselves to buy their material from the makers of the machine. I therefore move -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the words “ ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “free.”

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 367. Licht-pausrohpapier, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent; (United Kingdom), free.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

– I move -

That the words “and leatherette” be inserted after the word “ licht-pausrohpapier.”

Mr Hutchison:

– What is leatherette?

Mr J H CATTS:

– A kind of paper used in bookbinding.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- The Treasurer should tell us what lichtpausrohpapier is.

Sir William Lyne:

– It is a photographic material.

Mr PAGE:

– Surely it can be made in Australia. Will the honorable member for Batman say that it cannot, and that he is not able to produce a sample from one of his pockets? If Victorians are ready to admit this article free, it certainly cannot be made here.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- Lichtpausrohpapier is practically the same thing as surface-coated paper; but it is a blue paper, used by architects for tracings and plans.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

.- It seems to me that leatherette is an imitation leather which it may be dangerous to admit, because it may be used for boots. We have already been shown boots made virtually of paper.

Sir William Lyne:

– I am informed that it is used mainly for bookbinding.

Mr Harper:

– Yes.

Mr CROUCH:

– Then the Minister must take the responsibility.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- It seems to me that probably leatherette was used in the boots shown by the honorable member for Batman the other night It seems the sort of material that could be used to imitate leather, or alligator skin, in which case the honorable member for Lang should know something about it. As, according to the Treasurer, the effect of admitting an article free is to make it expensive, I shall vote for the amendment.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- As the honorable member for Batman will not, on this occasion, defend the Victorian manufacturers of boots, I must do so. I can assure the honorable member for Hunter that boots made in Victoria are not made of leatherette, but of leather.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 368. Books n.e.i., Prospectuses and Catalogues (other than trade) n.e.i, free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That after the letters “n.e.i.,” line 2, the words “ and all printed matter n.e.i.” be inserted.

Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava

.- It has been suggested to me that in this item we should include newspaper supplements not type set. I am advised that that would not affect any printing industry in the Commonwealth. Honorable members are aware that the Christmas issues of many of the newspapers contain supplements to which a lithographed picture is attached. I think such pictures should be admitted free, and I, therefore, move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the letters “ n.e.i.” the words “ including newspaper supplements not type set.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I cannot accept the amendment. It would benefit only a few wealthy . newspaper proprietors, whilst it is well known that these supplements can be produced here.

Mr Wynne:

– I am told they cannot.

Mr WATSON:
South Sydney

.- Coloured supplements, the work of Australian artists, lithographed and printed by the three-colour process, are produced in Australia, and I see no reason why their production should not be protected.

Mr McWilliams:

– Do we produce coloured supplements without some letterpress on them ?

Mr WATSON:

– The lettering can be done either before or after they are imported. Usually the only letterpress on the supplements are the word’s at the head of the sheet, “ Supplement to” such and such a journal, with the title of the picture underneath. Some very fine supplements are being produced in Australiato-day ; and I do not see why we should not encourage the artistic sense in the community. The Town and Country Journal and the Sydney Mail, for instance, usually issue a coloured Christmas supplement, and these are produced in Australia. If we decided that such coloured supplements should be admitted free, an inducement would be given to people to look outside the Commonwealth for them.

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

– I object to the proposed amendment. Splendid pictures are taken at Mildura, and are then sent to Germany to be printed as post cards, and really what the honorable member for Balaclava desires is that we should have all our coloured supplements made in Germany.

Mr Wynne:

– I do not desire that.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– That will be the effect of the amendment, because these supplements can be produced more cheaplv in Germany than anywhere else. If it is the object of the honorable member to encourage German as against British and Australian artists, I am not with him.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.I suggest to the honorable member for Balaclava that these coloured supplements can be more appropriately dealt with under item 416 - Pictures, n.e.i.

Sir William Lyne:

– That is where I intend to deal with them.

Mr Wynne:

– If the Committee is against my amendment it does not matter whether I move it upon this item or upon another.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Division XIV. - Vehicles.

Item 369. Bicycles, Tricycles, and Similar Vehicles, n.e.i., and Frames thereof, whether partly or wholly finished, each or ad val., whichever rate returns the higher duty (General Tariff), £5 5s. or 30per cent. ; (United Kingdom),£5 or 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Before we adjourn for dinner I wish to inform honorable members that I consider the specific duties proposed in connexion with this item are very high, and I propose to strike them out. I intend to move that the duty shall be 30 per cent, in the general Tariff and 25 per cent, on imports from the United Kingdom.

Sitting suspendedfrom 6.29 to 7.45 p.m.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- This is one of a group of items upon which the composite method of fixed and ad valorem rates is proposed by the Treasurer.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– The Treasurer has just announced that he will strike out the fixed duty.

Mr WILKS:

– I hope he will do the same with all the other items in the group. If he does, it will facilitate business, shorten debate, and enable him to land in port all right to-morrow. If he does not, I am afraid that the items will provoke a long discussion. I do not feel inclined to debate this item on the question of the ad valorem rate, but I wish to express the hope that throughout the rest of the Tariff, in all instances where the alternative method has been adopted, the Treasurer will drop the fixed and adhere to the ad valorem rate.

Sir William Lyne:

– The honorable member must not expect that.

Mr COON:
Batman

.- I hope the Treasurer will not allow the fixed duty to be struck out. The ad valorem rate proposed will have no effect at all. Bicycles are being dumped here at £5 apiece. The Tariff Commission went into the question, and their work should be recognised in connexion with this all-important industry. In Victoria alone there are over 1,000 men engaged in the bicycle trade. Why should we allow the foreigner to dump” his bicycles here as he has been doing? In 1905 bicycles to the value of£263,626 were imported. If the fixed duty is taken off, the cheap bicycles now in bond will be on the market to-imorrow or the next day. Why should this protectionist House allow goods that in other countries are charged 40 and 50 per cent, to come in here at a duty of 25 per cent. ? No reason has been given for removing the fixed duty. There is every reason why it should be retained. It was recommended by the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, which included the honorable member for Bendigo, Senator McGregor, and ex-Senator Higgs.

Sir William Lyne:

– They recommended 25 per cent, as well.

Mr COON:

– And they also recommended a fixed duty of £5.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Why such an enormous taxation on the cheaper bicycles?

Mr COON:

– It is not an enormous taxation. The’ cheaper bicycles should be kept out, as they are dangerous to ride. Why should we allow our markets to be flooded with cheap bicycles that people in other countries will not use? The local bicycle industry ought to be encouraged.

Mr Wilks:

– Do they pay big wages in the industry?

Mr COON:

– Yes. There are a number of small men making bicycles all over Australia. They should receive some consideration. A duty of 25 per cent, on a £5 bicycle will be only about 25s. That will not prevent that class of machine being dumped here. This is another case where a protective Tariff has been the means of reducing , the price of an article. Previous to bicycles being made here, the cost of a machine was as high as from£25 to £30. The price has been considerably reduced, and now a proposition is put forward which will practically mean wiping out the industry. The men who are making bicycles here have been given to understand that they will get some protection.

Mr Storrer:

– The price was reduced without the £5 duty.

Mr COON:

– It was, but since the imposition of that duty the industry has progressed and improved. It is only under such a. duty that it can hope to succeed. Why should it not receive the protection which it asks for?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Asks for?

Mr COON:

– Yes; or which the people ask for. If the£5 rate is retained it will be the means of reducing the price of the better class bicycle, and of preventing the foreign trader from dumping his cheap goods into Australia. We can make bicycles here. Honorable members opposite, times out of number, have asked how many men are employed in an industry, and whether we can make an article here. In this case we are making bicycles here complete, and equal to any made in any other part of the world. When that is so, let us impose a duty which Will prevent the foreign bicycle from coming in at all.

Mr Johnson:

– No part of the machine, except the tyres, is made here.

Mr COON:

– I do not say it is all made here. Perhaps there are certain parts that are not made here, but there is no part that cannot be made here if the opportunity is given. If we allow cheap shoddy stuff, that people in other parts of the world will not use, to be dumped into Australia, we will never make anything.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The answer to the honorable member for Batman, who; of course, knows all about the intricacies of bicycle manufacture as of every other industry by this time, as the Committee has been made painfully aware during this long Tariff debate, is that bicycles are not made here. They are at the most assembled here. The parts are not made in Australia, and in all probability will not be for many years to come, nomatter what duties are imposed upon them. Are we therefore to impose these inordinate rates for the mere sake of taxing out bicycles, and making them dearer to the public? That is the only question that we have to ask ourselves. This is no strangled industry. It has never begun to be an industry in Australia, so far as the bond fide making of bicycles goes. All that happens is that the’ parts are imported and put together. I have no doubt the honorable member for Batman would call that a very elaborate process of manufacture. If he relies upon the Tariff Commission to buttress up his case, he will find small comfort there, and small encouragement for the vigorous propaganda which he seems to be waging on behalf of the local bicycle makers. Only two makers gave evidence before the Commission. I should like to hear from the Chairman of that body their reason for proposing an exorbitant duty of£5, with an alternative of 25 per cent. It seems absurd on the face of it that £5 should be regarded as the equivalent of 25 per cent, ad valorem. There is no relation between the two. Upon a highly finished machine, £5 might possibly be equivalent to 25 per cent., but on the cheaper bicycles it means 100 per cent, and over in many cases.

Mr Maloney:

– On one of the bicycles sold in England for 25s., it would be 400 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should think that a bicycle sold at 25s. would be a danger to life and limb. There is no doubt that the machines are made . very cheaply in places where their manufacture has been specialized, and where the output and the market are very large. We can never hope to equal the skill developed from the specialization of the industry in those parts of the world. We have therefore to depend upon the parts which are sent out from the Old Country. As all that is done here is to assemble the parts into the completed machine, it is the height of absurdity even to suggest these extraordinary high duties. The Minister will therefore, do well to strike out the fixed, and leave only the ad valorem, rate. So far as I can ascertain none of the witnesses before the Commission advocated an increase in the duty on bicycles. One individual said that he would not object to an increase from 20 to 25 per cent, on the finished article.

Sir John Quick:

– But he also wanted free bicycle parts.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– He wanted the duty on the parts reduced to 10 per cent.

Sir John Quick:

– We did not propose, that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Since parts are not manufactured in Australia, that strikes me as a most reasonable request. I could understand the honorable member for Bendigo recommending a duty of £5 per bicycle if the parts were being made here, but they are not, and may not be made here for a generation to come. I do not know what the honorable member could have been thinking of to submit this recommendation. I should like to hear him explain it. I point out to the honorable member for Batman that the process of putting the machines together is neither elaborate nor costly. 1 was speaking just now to a gentleman who is a practical mechanic, and here are the charges in the business for the putting together of these machines : To put together a complete machine costs only 12s. for labour. If, they put together three, the cost is brought down to 11s. per machine, and if they put six together they do it for 10s. each. That is the whole labour cost for assembling the parts of the machine.

Mr Tudor:

– The honorable member is quoting the figures for building the frame, and not for putting the other parts into it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The cost of the process of assembling the parts into the completed machine is 12s. per bicycle.

Mr J H Catts:

– That is absurd.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member should not say so until he hears the complete statement. There are additional charges of 9s. per machine for enamelling, and is. per machine for nickelling. Thus we have a total of 22s. for building’ each machine.

Mr Tudor:

– But the wheels have yet to be taken into account’.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is so, and for that 2s. 6d., as labour cost, is provided.

Mr J H Catts:

– I have paid *£io for a pair of wheels made in Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Was that the result of the present duty ?

Mr J H Catts:

– No, it was long ago.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is speaking of the complete cost of the wheels to the purchaser, whereas I am referring to the cost of the labour involved in putting the parts together after they have been imported. I am told that the total cost of labour in putting the parts together is from 22s. to 24s.

Mr J H Catts:

– If the honorable member goes to buy a bicycle he will find that his figures are wrong.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Let me repeat that I am speaking of the labour cost. It will be seen that the duties originally suggested were outrageous, and that those now indicated are still exceedingly high. I hope the Treasurer .will consent to put these duties much lower than 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, on the complete machine.

Sir William Lyne:

– If the duties be ad valorem,- I shall propose 35 per cent.- and 30 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– My suggestion is that the old duties were sufficiently high.

Mr Watson:

– =The duties on the parts are too high in relation to the completed article.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then let us reduce the duties on the parts instead of imposing such enormous duties on the completed machine. That is all that the bicycle builders asked for when they gave evidence before the Tariff Commission; they stated that if the duties were made 10 per cent, on the parts, ‘and 20 per cent, on the finished machine, they would be sufficiently high for all protective purposes.

Sir John Quick:

– The’ duty on the unfinished parts was only 10 per cent, under the old Tariff.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That was so in the case of some of the parts, but other parts were charged 15 per cent, and 20 per cent. All they ask is that parts shall” be made uniformly dutiable at 10 per cent., without any increased protection on the finished article; but the Treasurer proposes to increase the duty on the latter to 35 per cent, and 30 per cent. Parts will not be made here for many years to come, and, therefore, the impost is simply an exorbitant revenue duty.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

– These duties have been the subject of much criticism in the press. We have learnt, many of us for the first time - from the honorable member for Bass, I believe - that eight bicycles, valued at £1 each, were landed at Launceston, and that, instead of a few shillings, the duty amounted to ^40. Then a gentleman from Queensland, when the Tariff was introduced, asked, that he might be allowed to unbraze imported frames, as the brazed frames were not worth. as much as the amount of the duty. The honorable member for Parramatta has read out figures relating to the labour cost, but, as I said in relation to the printing ink duty, very few honorable members can make themselves cognizant with the whole details of any industry. According to the honorable member for Parramatta, 12s. is .the labour cost of brazing the frame together.

Mr Hedges:

– A very big price !

Mr TUDOR:

– That is what is called the building of the frame. The honorable member for Parramatta admitted, however, that there was the enamelling, together with the building of the wheels an9 other charges. Some few years ago I endeavoured to ascertain by a question in the House addressed to the Minister of Trade and Customs the invoiced prices of various imported bicycles, and it was found that, just as in the case of gramaphones, typewriters, cash-registers, and so forth. on which there is either very little duty or.no duty at all, the price at which they were invoiced was very small in comparison with the price at which they were sold to the public. It may safely be said that at least three-fourths of the bicycles used in Victoria have been built or put together within the State.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– There was scarcely any protection under the old Tariff.

Mr TUDOR:

– But under the old Victorian Tariff there was protection. In New South Wales, on the other hand, where there was no protection, not onefourth of the bicycles in use in that State are built there. If the bicycle industry had not been finmly established under the old Victorian Tariff, there would not have been half the people employed in it that there are to-day. It is not my intention to discuss the decision of the Victorian Wages Board in the cycle trade, though I disagree entirely with it in fixing the wages too low. That the Wages Board made a mistake is no reason why the duty_ on bicycles should be largely reduced ; and I am very sorry to learn from the Treasurer that he has decided to abandon the fixed rate. It would be a good idea on the part of the Customs authorities to periodically publish in the Government Gazette a list of the prices at which goods are invoiced when imported. If we could learn, for instance, that bicycles, which, when complete, are sold for £10, £11, £15, and even as high as £30, were invoiced at less than£5, the public would realize the profits made by those engaged in importing.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The parts must be coming in cheap if bicycles are being made here.

Mr TUDOR:

– As to that, if the Treasurer has decided to reduce the duties on the finished article, he ought certainly to reduce the duties on the parts. take it that the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, when they made their recommendations, had in view the duties on the parts as well as the duty on the finished machine. When the honorable member for Batman was speaking, the honorable member for Lang interjected, “ Are any of the parts made here”? In reply, I may say that, with the exception of the tyres, I do not think that the parts are made here to any extent, although some may have been made by a few ingenious mechanics in their spare time. I guarantee that not 5 per cent, of the bicycle manufacturers in Great Britain make their own parts, but that they buy them from various firms, who have made a specialty of that branch of business, there being three or four standard parts turned out such as the B.S.A., the Edie, and one or two others. But those manufacturers of parts are now endeavouring to monopolize the whole of the cycle business at Home; and those of us who take an interest in trade saw recently what happened in America when, a firm there tried to do precisely the same.. I have here a copy of a letter originally sent to the Minister of Trade and Customs from the Melbourne representatives of the Canadian Cycle and Motor Company, which, I believe, is the Massey-H arris Company. The letter is as follows -

A petition requesting an additional increase in the General Tariff on bicycles and component parts thereof having within the past week been laid before you by a section of the bicvcle trade we desire respectfully to protest in the strongest manner against their requests. As you are already aware, this company employs none but- British workmen in its manufactures, and having a large vested interest throughout the Commonwealth, is, we. claim, entitled to some consideration. When we thoroughly understood that the ultimatum of the Government was higher protection, we immediately set about a complete reorganization of our business. We are now receiving from Canada bicycle frame parts in the rough in exactly the same way as English importations. We have installed an up-to-date erecting and assembling, as well as an enamelling and nickel-plating plant, and now have working nearly twice the number of men formerly employed at bicycle building.

This company admit that they now employ twice the number of people that they employed three months ago, when this Tariff was introduced ; and, being anxious to have the duty reduced on the finished machine, they are evidently indifferent about throwing a number of those people out of employment.

Mr Henry Willis:

– Have they increased the prices on their machines locally ?

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not think the prices have been increased by a single shilling since the duty was imposed, though I cannot speak definitely, except in the case of Victoria. A fixed duty ought to be imposed in order to prevent the dumping of machines in Australia. I know that complete bicycles, which in the trade means bicycles minus tyres, saddles and chains, have been landed on the wharf at Melbourne, all charges, including duty paid, for less than £3.

It might be said, therefore, that the duty proposed is exorbitant, but, as a matter of fact, that is nothing like the fair value of the machines; and it is in order to prevent the dumping of surplus stocks at the end of the season that the Tariff Commission, and subsequently the Government, adopted the duties proposed. Honorable members have said that the local builders of bicycles merely assemble the parts after the frame has been built. Of course, any person with ordinary common-sense could put the parts together if he only possessed a little mechanical knowledge. But I do not think that he could braze a machine and fit it up entirely unaided.

Mr Hutchison:

– Our bicycle builders do any amount of brazing work, and some of us could do it.

Mr TUDOR:

– Some honorable members who possess mechanical skill might possibly be able to do that sort of work. Of course, I realise that the Government having abandoned the fixed duties which appear in the schedule, it is hopeless for any honorable member to fight for them. I believe that by acting as they have done the Ministry have struck a heavy blow at many men who have equipped their shops with the appliances necessary for the building df machines from imported parts. Honorable members may have noticed that one of the standard makers of bicycle parts has recently increased the price of those parts. I have received, from a gentleman in the country, a letter which emanated from an exporter of bicycles in England. In it the writer points out that English manufacturers would be able to beat the Customs authorities even if the fixed duties which appear in the schedule were retained. He declared that British manufacturers did not contemplate losing the Australian trade. Personally, I want to see our own people retain as much of that trade as possible, and that result cannot be achieved if we agree to the proposal of the Treasurer.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

– I am very glad that the Treasurer has proposed the abolition of the fixed duties in respect of this item. I hold in my hand an invoice which gives the average value - exclusive of any charges - of thirty-six bicycles which are at present in bond. The value is set down at £5 9s. 6d. each. The total consignment is valved at ^197 3s. 6d. So far from these machines having been dumped, I am informed that the price I have mentioned is a fair one for a good article, The charges upon the consignment added to the duty amount to ^207 9s. 3d. They work out as follows - f.o.b. charges £2 is. 3d., cost of packages £5 5s., freight and primage ^8 16s. 1 id., duty at £5 each ;£i8o, landing charges at 6s. per ton £1 8s. nd., insurance, exchange, interest, &c, £9 17s. 2d., or a total of .£207 9s. 3d. on a declared value at the port of exportation of ^197 3s. 6d. These charges are equivalent to a tax of £5 each upon machines which are exported for £5 9s. 6d. each. The old duty upon that consignment, instead of amounting to ;£i8o, would have amounted t0 £43 7S. 6d. The protectionist section of the Tariff Commission recommend a duty upon this item of 25 per cent. We must not seriously regard the alternative duty of £5 per machine recommended by that body. As the honorable member for Yarra suggested, it was framed with a view to prevent dumping. Now, assuming that a consignment of bicycles were invoiced at £1 each or a little over, instead of a duty of 25 per cent, being charged upon them - which was the rate assumed by the Commission to be necessary for protection - the Customs authorities would have power, under the original proposal of the Government, to penalize the importer of these dumped machines by imposing a duty upon them of £5 each. That is a very large power to place in the hands of a Minister, because by an arbitrary assessment of value upon a mere allegation that dumping was taking place he would be able without the importer having a right to appeal to charge a duty of £5 per machine. This is a power, which ought not to be granted to him. I say, therefore, that the true duty recommended by the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission was 25 per cent., and I do not think that we shall be acting wrongly if we adopt that rate.

Sir John Quick:

– That was the rate recommended upon high-class bicycles.

Mr GLYNN:

– It was the rate recommended without any qualification whatever. I am assured that £5 9s. 6d. per machine represents the fair value of a good bicycle, and that it is the true import price is shown by the invoice to which I have alluded. Under the circumstances, I think that we might very well accept the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, and grant preferential treatment to the imports from the United Kingdom. That the duties originally scheduled were too high is evidenced by the fact that the Government are prepared, without debate, to accept, in lieu thereof, 35 per cent, under the general Tariff and 30 per cent, under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. Under the circumstances, I think that the Committee might agree to 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, respectively, and I shall move accordingly. Thirty per cent, would represent an increase of 10 per cent, upon the old rate of duty. If any further concession is to be made to the bicycle industry - and we ought to recollect that there is a very large section of the public who use bicycles as a part of their implements of trade - I suggest that it should take the form of a reduced duty upon the parts.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

.- It has been said that bicycle-building in the Commonwealth merely consists of assembling the parts and undertaking the brazing, nickelling, and enamelling of the machines. Of course, in some cases alterations are made in the design of the bicycles, and the tubes are cut by those who import them. Generally speaking, however; the tubes are cut to length. If there were a chance of the industry of manufacturing the parts being established in Australia, I should be very pleased to assist in imposing a reasonable duty upon those parts, because it would be an industry worth encouraging. But, as has been already pointed out, the parts are all standardized, and there is not much probability that in the near future these parts will be made in the Commonwealth. They are imported chiefly from the Birmingham Small Arms Factory. The Government have certainlv done the right thing in abandoning the fixed duties of £5 and , £5 5s. originally proposed. As has been pointed out by the honorable member for Parramatta, the cost of the work done here upon a single machine amounts to about 24s. So that to levy a duty of £5 or £5 5s. upon each bicycle would be utterly ridiculous. The figures quoted by the honorable member for Parramatta correspond almost exactly with those supplied to me by a bicycle builder in Adelaide.

Mr Hughes:

– Does the cost quoted by the honorable member cover the enamelling ? Mr. BATCHELOR. - Yes. The enamelling costs about 9s. per machine. Seeing that we are not likely to go in for the manufacture of bicycle parts, I should prefer to make the duty upon bicycles 30 per cent, under the general Tariff and 25 per cent. under the Tariff for the United Kingdom, and to lower the rates upon the parts to 10 per cent. and 5 per cent, respectively. The imposition of a small duty might encourage the manufacture of some of the parts locally. Our best course, therefore, is to levy the duties which I have indicated upon bicycles, and to reduce the rates upon the parts at any rate to 10 and 5 per cent., if not to abolish them. There does not seem to be a sufficient reason for a duty as. high as 10 per cent, on the parts which cannotbe made here, at any rate for a few years. The only reason which the Treasurer has given for increasing the duties on the finished article up to 35 and 30 per cent, is because he has duties of 15 and 10 per cent, on the parts. It seems to me that the better method would be, instead of increasing the total cost of the article to the user, to reduce it by making the duties on the finished goods 30 and 25 per cent. and the duties on the parts 10 and 5 per cent.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- Seeing that the Treasurer has decided to abandon the fixed duties, 1 do not wish to argue the question at any great length. The reason which induced the A section of the Tariff Commission to propose the fixed duties was that they should operate on a large number of cheap, unserviceable, and dangerous bicycles, some of them being as low in value as £2, £3, and We realized that ad valorem duties of 25 or 20 per cent, on such goods would be practically inoperative.

Mr McWilliams:

– One can get a good: sound machine for £5.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– We did not desire to give protection by proposing the fixed duties, butto assist in keeping out undesirable bicycles. I am sorry that the Treasurer has seen fit to abandon the fixed duties, because I know that in this Tariff no proposition has worked more effectively and successfully than have those duties. I know that they have had the result of stimulating the bicycle-making industry in various parts of Australia. I have seen letters in the press and telegrams from all parts congratulating the Government upon imposing duties which are so effective and successful in, their operation. However, the Minister is responsible, and , I do not intend to fall out with him. This industry seems to present scope for large development and expansion. In Victoria there are no less than a* thousand persons employed in the repairing and making of bicycles, motor cars, and motor cycles. I do not know the number in other States, but I feel deeply impressed with the possibilities of the industry. An idea of those possibilities may be gathered from the fact that during the last two or three years bicycles and motor cycles to the value of over ,£250,000 have been imported. That shows that there was a wide area of trade for a good sound protective duty to operate upon. And these fixed duties were undoubtedly the most effective and operative part of these proposals. The deputy leader of the Opposition has challenged my reply regarding the work and labour involved in this industry. I think he said that it cost only 12s. or 13s. to assemble or put together the various parts of a bicycle.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– No ; 24s.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– .Of course, the amount that is spent locally in building a bicycle depends upon whether finished or unfinished parts are utilized. If the parts are finished, no doubt the work involved is not so great as would be the case if the parts were unfinished. But it is claimed that in building a bicycle out of imported unfinished parts every cycle manufacturer in the Commonwealth gives at least thirtysix hours’ employment to Australian workmen. That is an incentive to manufacturers to build factories, and provide plant locally made or imported, giving work to a considerable number of men in the production of bicycles.

Mr Batchelor:

– What does the honorable member mean by unfinished parts?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I refer to parts which require local treatment such as enamelling, brazing, filing down, and fitting. The putting together of the parts of an unfinished bicycle gives four days’ work, at about £2 a day, to local labour. Let us now consider the class of work that is involved. The deputy leader of the Opposition has said that it simply means the fitting together of some parts. If honorable members will listen to an extract from our report they will get an idea of. the process -

When the component parts, unfinished, are imported, and made into complete machines in Australia, the following work is done locally, namely : - Cutting and fitting all tubing and parts together, brazing same, filling same, nickelplating, enamelling the frames, front forks, back stays and wheel rims with three or four coats of enamel, placing the same in ovens for the purpose of rendering the enamel hard and solid, thereby being less liable to chip and peel off, decorating frames with fancy transfers and names, and other ornamental work. The bicycle frame is then ready for the assembler to take in hand the fitting of other parts, such as tyres, chains, pedals, cranks, bearings, handle bars, and saddle pillars, to make the cycle complete.

We were of opinion that the most effective way of encouraging the industry was by substantially increasing the duty on finished bicycles and frames, as well as by placing on the free list certain bicycle tubes.

Mr Page:

– Will the honorable member now give us a little information about the wages paid to the men who manufacture the bicycles here?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I certainly am in favour of the employes being paid fair and reasonable wages, and I am happy to inform the honorable member that a Board with full jurisdiction to deal with these matters has been investigating and giving awards.

Mr Page:

– Does the honorable member consider 27s. 6d. a good wage for a man with a wife and five youngsters?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– That is notorious sweating with which I, like the honorable member, have no sympathy. We do not want that, and I believe it is the desire and intention of the owners of bicycle factories, if these duties are imposed, to give their workers good and substantial wages.

Mr Maloney:

– They will not get any new protection if they do not.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Quite so. I have explained the reason why the fixed duties were recommended, and that was practically to check the importation of dangerous, unserviceable, and cheap machines. And with reference to high class and expensive machines, the ad valorem duties of 30 and 25 per cent, were intended to operate.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member does not believe in making bicycles too readily available to poor persons?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I believe that the imposition of these duties would not increase the prices of the bicycles made or put together in Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member has just said that his object is to try to keep them out.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I have said that my object was to keep out the dangerous rubbish; but the exclusion of that would rather tend to encourage the local production of superior machines. I know as a fact that the local manufacture of bicycles has resulted in a great decline in the prices of them to the general public. I remember the time - and it is only a few years ago - when I gave £32 for an ordinary bicycle, but to-day I could buy the same machine in Bendigo - perhaps, a better one - for£15 or , £20, simply owing to local manufacture and competition.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The prices of bicycles have fallen all over the world.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– If this trade werein the hands of bicycle importers there would be a great danger of the prices being raised to the old standard, whereas the local manufacturer of them has undoubtedly tended to bring down the cost, and the public have had an advantage thereby. I hope that the Minister having given way on the fixed duties does not intend to go below 35 per cent. I hope that he will accept the invitation of the freetrade party and lower the duties on the parts both finished and unfinished. That to some extent would be a slight compensation to local manufacturers for the removal of the fixed duties.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I am surprised at so much heat being imported into this discussion. I felt that the fixed- duties of £5 5s, and £5 were very excessive, and I do not care who says the reverse. On looking through the Tariffs of other countries, I found that bicycles were not subjected to a fixed duty but to an ad valorem duty. In Victoria under its old Tariff there was a much lower ad valorem duty than ours, and in New Zealand, Canada and the United States of America there is an ad valorem duty.

Mr King O’Malley:

– Forty-five per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We are getting very close to that.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Canada has a duty of 35 and 30 per cent., while New Zealand has a duty of 20 per cent. Under the old Victorian Tariff it was 10 per cent., and under our old Tariff it was 20 per cent. If the consensus of opinion in all those countries is in favour of an ad valorem duty, I conceive that I cannot go far wrong in following their example. I am as anxious as is any one to see a good duty imposed on any article which we can and do make. With regard to bicycles some honorable members have said that they would rather have a fixed duty of £1 than an ad valorem duty. Let us see how it would work out. Suppose that I get the Committee to agree to duties of 35 and 30 per cent. A bicycle is imported worth £3, and that will have a duty of £1 upon it even at that very low estimated value.

Mr Hughes:

– No one can produce a bicycle in this country for£3.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not think so. I am sure that honorable members will give me credit for trying to deal with this matter in a practical way. We cannot do better than adopt the method which has been pursued all over the British Dominions and in the United States. I think myself, despite what has been said, that duties of 35 and 30 per cent, are very good rates indeed. Those who are interested in this industry ought to be very, well satisfied, and think themselves lucky to get such duties. That is the feeling that I have.

Mr Wilks:

– The honorable gentleman is givingus a free-trade speech.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Thereis nothing free-trade about me.

Mr Page:

– A duty of 35 per cent, is not free-trade.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not think I am going very far wrong in proposing these duties.

Mr Batchelor:

– What is the honorable gentleman going to do in reference to parts ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– The suggestion which has been made in reference to parts strikes me as being, a good one. I have not been able to ascertain what is necessary, but by the time we reach the item dealing with parts I shall be able to make a statement, explaining what reduction I intend to move, if any. I firmly believe in leaving a good margin between the duty on the bicycle and that on parts. Probably a reduction of the duty on parts will make this duty more acceptable to those who are complaining at present. . I move -

That the figures “ £5 5s.” and “ £5 “ be left out.

Mr. HENRY WILLIS (Robertson) slipping away from his high protectionist principles. He originally proposed a duty of £5, and now he comes down to one of ios. He really does not seem to know where he is. The honorable member for Bendigo tells us that bicycles can be brought to this country for a mere bagatelle, and that it was because of the importation of these weak and dangerous machines that he proposed a fixed duty. But the honorable member evidently forgot that these inferior machines can be imported in parts and made up here, when they can be sold more cheaply than the good machines, with which they compete. It seems to me, however, that this item does not merit so much discussion as has been devoted to it. If we make the duty high, and the parts are put together here, and it only costs 24s. to put them together, it seems to me that there will be no demand for complete imported machines. The freight alone would make it almost prohibitive to import them as compared with the cost of putting together the parts here. The honorable member for Bendigo has told us that it takes a man thirty-six hours to put a machine together. The honorable member for Parramatta says that it costs 24s. to put a machine together. The honorable member for Boothby also says that the cost of building a bicycle from imported parts is 24s., and he speaks as a practical man. Evidently, if it takes thirty-six hours to construct a machine, and the wages paid are 8d. an hour, that works out at 24s. If the Committee wish to do something for the benefit of the industry, they should’ give it the parts free. Then it will flourish, and locally-built machines must take the place of importations. Therefore, when we reach item 375 I shall support the proposition that parts lie admitted free, so that all the bicycles required in Australia may be made in the country. There is no advantage in importing machines if they can be put together in Australia. We have been told that bicycles are dumped into Australia. It is a remarkable thing that I never get any of these goods dumped into my backyard. I never have a chance of buying dumped goods. But a few years ago I looked into a bicycle factory at Coventry, England, where the best machines in the world are made, and the head of the firm told me that they could have sold 5,000 more machines during the year if they had had time to make them. I have never yet heard of an up>-to-date machine being dumped into any country. It is the out-of-date machine that will be dumped, to get rid of it. This story about goods being dumped into Australia is a mere fiction, and I hope that the Committee will not be induced to’ believe it. However, I am more interested in item 375 than in that under consideration. I should like the duties to be made as low as possible. Whether we make the duty high or low on this item, however, it will not make a bit of difference, so long, as we make the duty on parts low.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- We hear a great deal from the Melbourne and suburban members about locally-produced bicycles’. In fact, it appears that in every electorate around Melbourne there are bicycle factories. In South Melbourne there seems to be one in every back yard. But while a good deal has been said about the necessity for protecting the industry, only one or two honorable members have pleaded the cause of the consumer.

Mr Watson:

– How much did the honorable member pay for his Australian-built machine ?

Mr PAGE:

– I paid £20 for it. If I want a good machine I know that I have to pay a fair price for it. Shoddy machinesare made in ‘Melbourne just as “freely as they are imported. Enamel covers a multitude of sins in the bicycle trade. No one knows that better than the honorable member for South Sydney. The best bicycle I ever rode in my life was his, and it was an imported machine.

Mr Watson:

– That was a good while ago.

Mr PAGE:

– I never rode a better machine, and I have ridden a few and travelled a good many miles on them. In my electorate nearly every man you meet who is not “waltzing Matilda” rides a bicycle. At every station to which the shearers go there is a shed for the bicycles. Many men are now giving up the ordinary machine and going in for the motor cycle. As in some cases they have to ride 70 and 80 miles a day over a bush road, their interests ought to be taken into consideration as well as those of the manufacturers in Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane. But I have not heard the honorable member for Bendigo say a word in the interest’s of the men who have to buy these machines. Thehonorable member’s anxiety appears to belimited to what can be got for Victoria. The arguments used with regard to the bicycle trade strike me as really very curious. As soon as those engaged in it prove that their industry is in a flourishing condition some honorable members are prepared to protect them. The industry was flourishing in New South Wales under freetrade, and even in Victoria in the palmy days of protection there was a duty of only 10 per cent. Now, however, under the Deakin Government, and with a New South Wales protectionist Treasurer, we have proposed a duty of 35 per cent.

Mr Wilks:

– Yesterday the Treasurer wanted a duty of £10 per machine.

Mr PAGE:

– He has seen the error of his ways since then. Now, -what about the wages paid in this industry which the honorable member for Bendigo is so anxious to protect against the cheap imported article? The “ reputable employers section” of the Victorian Factories Act limits the power of the Wages Boards to fix rates of wages to those paid by the average employer in the trade. The ‘wages paid to-day in the bicycle trade are higher than those fixed by the Board. I shall state what the wages fixed by the Board are. I ask the Committee whether it is fair, reasonable and reputable to expect a man with five children to live in ‘Melbourne on £1 7s. 6d. a week? A foreman bicyclemaker, who must be a mechanic, has had his wages fixed at £2 8s. per week. That is considered sufficient for the man who bosses the show. I pay a boundary-rider more than that for sitting on a horse and riding round my fences. The assemblers of bicycle parts get £1 12s. per week, filers j£i 8s., persons engaged in building, turning, and fitting, or who are employed in addition thereto at other branches of the trade, get £2 os. 6d. This is the industry the honorable member for Bendigo is raving about. I say that if it cannot afford to pay better wages than these the sooner it is wiped out the better, in order that the men at present engaged in it may be able to turn their attention to some more profitable employment. Repairers get £1 15s. per week. Wheel builders £1 8s. 6d., and all other adults engaged in the industry £1 7s. 6d. Apprentices, who are unlimited, get from 5s. to 25s. per week, and improvers, who are allowed in the ratio of one to one or two adults, two to three adults, and one for every additional adult, get from 5s. to 28s. . per week, according to experience. I have heard the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, where the majority of these bicycle shops are to be found, say times out of number that if he had his way he would wipe out an industry that could not pay better wages than these. I desire that the workers engaged in the industry, and the people who buy and ride bicycles, as well as the people who build and . sell them, should get some of the benefit conferred by the protection proposed. We know that many of these bicycles are made of tin tubes. A man in Rockhampton wanted to sell me a bicycle which he said would carry a ton. He gave me a trial, and I brought it back to him like a concertina. This was a Colonial-made bicycle, and it is clear, therefore, that the remarks of the honorable member for Bendigo about cheap imported bicycles should not carry much weight. I am pleased that the Treasurer has seen fit to abolish the fixed duties proposed. It rests now with the Committee to decide what the ad valorem duties shall be. I have no wish to crush the local bicycle industry. I am prepared to vote for a reasonable duty for its protection, and if, under the old Victorian duty of 10 per cent, the industry could be carried on, those concerned in it should be satisfied with a duty of 2.5 per cent., for which I arn prepared to vote.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I feel sure that the arguments of the Chairman of the Tariff Commission will have great weight with the Committee. I hope that if the fixed duties are removed the honorable member’s colleagues on the Tariff Commission will in another place be successful in reintroducing them, or at least in providing for a fixed duty of 3s. on each machine. The object is to prevent the introduction of very cheap and worthless bicycles. I have seen bicycles advertised in the London press as low as £2 ios., £2 2s., and even £1 5s. If the parts of such machines were sent out here no self-respecting local manufacturer would use them. He would have to consider his good name, and in the interests of his business he could not afford to put such rubbish into a machine. We know that a certain amount of enamel will cover a great many faults, and worthless bicycles are imported which in appearance look spick and span.

Sir John Quick:

– If bicycles of that stamp locally made broke down they would! be sent back to the manufacturer, and he would have to repair them.

Mr MALONEY:

– And the man who bought such a bicycle from the local manufacturer would not be likely to go to him again. I have had some experience in connexion with bicycles. In 1892 I was offered a bicycle for £20, but I did not purchase it. The bicycle I have in use at the present time cost fj. 2. I have ridden it for a couple of years, and it’ is as good as the one for which I was asked £20. Within tha last three months I was offered a bicycle, which was better than the one I have got, for ,£10. The reduction in the price has, in my opinion, been due to the operation of the present Tariff.

Mr Wilson:

– No; the price of bicycles has fallen all over the world.

Mr MALONEY:

– If the honorable member will compare the price of locallymade tires with the price charged for imported tires, he will- find that the locallymade article is cheaper than the imported article. In the same way, as the result of the operation of the duty and the extended manufacture of bicycles in the Commonwealth, they can be sold now at less than the price asked for imported machines. I suppose the Government will carry the proposal to abolish the fixed duties of and £5 5s. ; but I suggest that they should be replaced by a fixed duty of ^3 3s., to prevent the introduction df cheap and worthless bicycles. Bicycle parts, which cannot be manufactured here, should be admitted free, and if that is done, the assemblers of the parts in the Commonwealth will be given a sufficient margin of protection for their work, and will have no reason to be discontented.

Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney

– The present proposal of the Treasurer is not calculated to help this industry to flourish and pay decent wages. Every time the honorable gentleman departs from the admirably -prepared Tariff put in front of him he gets into difficulties, and makes statements which are not corroborated from outside sources. Two” kinds of bicycles are imported : Those that are good and those that are no good. Those that are no good, and that really describes them, are imported at an invoice price of from .£3 to ,£5. I have known an individual obtain a bicycle from a Coventry firm landed here at £$, and we can assume that the purchaser of a large number of these machines would get them for very much less.. A duty of 30 per cent, would represent about £,1 10s. on such a machine, and under that duty it would cost landed in Australia £fi 10s. at the outside. How is a local manufacturer to pay decent wages if he is to make a bicycle for £.6 10s. ? I do not know how it is to be done. I have known bicycles to be sold for 22s. 6d., and all I can say is that if a manufacturer pays his workmen decent mechanics’ wages, .he cannot turn out a bicycle for 22s. 6d. I have never made bicycles myself, but I have done metal work, and I know that a bicycle could not be turned out at the price mentioned. I point out that if a specific duty of £5 were imposed on a machine invoiced, at £5, the effect would be to keep such machines out. A man who desires an imported machine wishes to have a first-class bicycle, which would be sold ait about £20, and the duty of £5 would not put the machine beyond him. A duty of £5 on the lower-priced machines would prevent their sale, and the market would thus be kept for the local manufacturer, and if he could make a better class of machine so much the better. However, when the Treasurer has formed a base mercenary alliance with the Opposition, there is nothing left for a free-trader like me to do but to follow him. I very much regret that one by one the old landmarks are becoming submerged in this chamber. We find honorable members making speeches in support of free Oregon, and then proposing a duty of 6d. per 100 superficial feet, and afterwards declaring that they do not care a “ continental “ how things go. If we intend to do anything for this industry, we should give it such protection as will enable the local manufacturers of bicycles to pay decent wages.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr Glynn:

– Shall I be in order in moving now that the rate of duty be 30 and 25 per cent, ad val.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member will see that those are the rates in the schedule.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– As the fixed duties have been struck out, I ask the Committee to increase the ad val. rates to 35 and 30 per cent., which will, I think, be low enough. I wish to move -

That after the words “ 30 per cent.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent.,” be inserted.

The CHAIRMAN:

– As the Treasurer has indicated his intention of moving an amendment to increase the rates of duty, the honorable member for Angas will now be in order in moving the, amendment which he indicated.

Amendment (by Mr. Glynn) proposed -

That after the words “ 30 per cent.” the words “and on and after11th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

.- I shall vote for rates of 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, on bicycles, and subsequently for rates of 10 per cent, and 5 per cent, on parts, which will give a sufficient margin to local makers.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- For the purposes of future reference, I wish to direct attention to the fact that the honorable member for Angas, notwithstanding that he is a free-trader, has moved the imposition of rates of 30 per cent, and 25 per cent. I shall, of course, vote for the lowest duty proposed; but I wish to emphasize the fact that other free-traders besides myself are not too rigidto be unable to vote for a 30 per cent, duty at times.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- The honorable member may think himself rather smart, but the rates which I have proposed are lower than those which the Minister has moved. I did not move for lower rates, because it would have been futile, and I wished to save time.

Question - That after the words “ 30 per cent.” the words “ and on and after11th December, 1907, 30 per cent.” be inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 31

NOES: 22

Majority … … 9

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Glynn) agreed to -

That after the words “ 25 per cent.” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, 25 per cent.,” be added.

Item further consequentially amended, and agreed to.

Item 370.. Children’s Cycles, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the word “Cycles” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “Tricycles.”

The item as it stands enables cycles of all kinds to be imported at the rates specified, so long as they are suitable for children ; but many cycles used by adults are so small in the frame that it is difficult to distinguish between them and cycles for the use of children. The intention is to bring under the item only children’s iron tricycles.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 371. Motor Cycles, Tricycles, and similar vehicles, n.e.i., and Frames thereof, whether partly or wholly finished, each (General Tariff), £10 10s. or ad val. 30per cent.; (United Kingdom), each £10 or ad val. 25 per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– I desire to know whether the Treasurer will accept on this item the same duties we have imposed on bicycles, namely, 30 per cent, and 25 per cent ?

Sir William Lyne:

– I am forced to consent to such a. proposal. It is not because I like it that I accept it.

Mr PAGE:

– I am glad that the Treasurer has agreed to my proposal. By doing so he has saved a good deal of time. I move -

That the words “each£1010s.” and “£10” be left out.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the words “or” and “whichever rate returns the higher duty “ belef t out.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 372. Cycle Tubing and Fork Sides in the rough; Liners, including Bent Tubing; not Brazed or Plated, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.; (United Kingdom), free.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the word “ Plated “ a semi-colon, and the word “ Balls,” be inserted.

That after the words “5 per cent.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, free,” be inserted.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 373. Perambulators and Go-carts, and parts thereof n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.”

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I propose to move that the duty under the general Tariff be 20 per cent. I hope that no argument is necessary to convince the Committee of the desirableness of such a reduction. It simply means a return to the old rate of duty.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I trust that the Committee will not agree to such a reduction. I am prepared if the Committee is favorable to reduce the duties to 30 per cent, and 25 per cent.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Make them 25 per cent, and 20 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Certainly not.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- This item affects the wealthy classes of the community not so much as it does the poorer sections. Perambulators and go-carts are used mostly by the middle and poorer’ classes, for our wealthy citizens have other means of conveyance for their infants. I am surprised that a Government which proposes to expend , £200,000 to encourage immigration is prepared to impose a prohibitive tax upon the perambulators and go-carts of the rising generation.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- We have already agreed to a duty of 35 per cent, on furniture, and I fail to see why we should differentiate between furniture and perambulators. The Government proposal is a very fair one.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- We have imposed a duty of 25 per cent, on children’s tricycles, which are mere toys, and I do not think we should impose duties of 35 per cent, and 25 per cent, on go-carts and perambulators, which are infinitely more important and useful.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) put -

That after the words “ 35 per cent.” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.,” be inserted.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 23

NOES: 30

Majority … … 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General” Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I congratulate the Committee on admitting children’s tricycles, which are playthings, at 20 per cent., and taxing perambulators at 30 per cent.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 374. Perambulator or Go-cart Body and Under-gear. each (General Tariff), 5s. 3d. ; (United Kingdom), 5s.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 20 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 15 per cent.,” be added.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I think the Committee have made an error regarding this and the last item. The words “ and parts thereof “ should have been transferred from the last item to this, and “perambulator and go-cart body” should have been in the other item, both items carrying ad valorem duties. I believe that certain parts of these vehicles are not made here. There was a great discussion in the press when the Tariff was introduced as to whether the under gear was or was not made here. I am not sure now whether it is made here or not, but at any rate the parts should not be dutiable at as high a rate as is the finished article.

Mr Mauger:

– “Tiger” Gardiner makes them.

Mr TUDOR:

– I believe that Councillor Gardiner, of North Melbourne, does make some parts of perambulators. If this item is made dutiable at a lower rate than the previous one, I suggest that the Treasurer should make inquiries and, if he finds that there is an anomaly, have it rectified in another place.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The honorable member for Yarra spoke to me about this matter during the last division. I did not know before that there was likely to be an anomaly, but I will take action, either here or in another place, to transfer “parts” from the previous item to this item, if I can possibly do so.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 375. Cycle parts plated, brazed, enamelled or permanently joined (including chains) ; Cycle Accessories and Parts thereof, including Cyclometers, Steel Trouser Clips, Steel Toe Clips, and Bands, Parcel Carriers, Inflators, Inflator Clips and Connexions, Bells, Saddle Covers, Tool Bags, Repair Outfits, and the like, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I wish to leave out “chains,” and insert “rims”; and before “saddle covers “ to insert “ saddles and.”

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- The Minister should omit “chains.” They were specifically mentioned as being free in the last Tariff. Even in Great Britain very few firms are engaged in making them. It is specialized work, and they should be included in the next item at a lower rate of duty.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– I hope the Minister will strike out cyclometers, which are not made here. This will be only a revenue duty on them. They should be put on the free list.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

.- There is no pretence that a number of articles in this item are made here or are. likely to be made here.

Sir William Lyne:

– I intend to propose duties of 15 and 10 per cent.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– That will be purelv a revenue duty on necessary parts which are not made here and which should come under the next item. I refer particularly to chains, cyclometers, and inflators. The rest of these articles can be made here.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- I believe that chains in the length are free, but that these chains are taxed as accessories at 20 per cent. I am informed by an importer that that is the way the Tariff is administered. Consequently, if we desire to make chains free it will be necessary to alter this item to read “ not including chains,” rather than to strike out the words “including chains.”

Sir William Lyne:

– I propose to put chains into the next item, at a duty of 5 per cent, and free.

Mr GLYNN:

– Striking them out of this item would not necessarily make them free.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the word “Chains” be left out, and the word “Rims” be inserted.

That the words “Cyclometers” and “Inflators” be left out.

That the words “ Saddles and “ be inserted before the words “ Saddle Covers.”

That the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 10 per cent.,” be added.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 376. Cycle Parts, n.e.i., including Steel Bars for the manufacture of Kims ; also unplated parts, namely, Ball Heads, Bottom Brackets, Lugs Fork Ends, Bridges, Sprocket Wheels, Balls, Nipples, Spokes, Washers, n.e.i., and Valves for Tyres, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 .per cent.; (United Kingdom), 10 per cent.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I suggest that the word ‘ ‘ unplated “ be struck out, and ‘ ‘ unfinished “ substituted before the word “ parts.” If the Treasurer rnakes inquiries amongst his officers, he will find that the word “ unplated “ in this connexion caused endless confusion in the Department. Any part which had the least bit of plating on it had to fall under a higher duty ; and I do not think that is the desire of the Committee.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the word “unplated” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ unfinished “ ; that the word “Balls” be left out; that before the word “Washers” the word “ Spoke “ be inserted ; that after the word “Washers” the comma be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof a semicolon; that the letters “n.e.i.” be left out; that before the word “ Valves “ the word “ all “. be inserted ; that after the word “Tyres” the words “Chains, Cyclometers, Speedometers,Inflators,] Hubs, and Pedals” be inserted.

Amendments (by Sir’ William Lyne) proposed -

That after the words “ is per cent.” the words “and on and after nth December, 1507, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.,” be inserted.

That after the words “10 per cent.” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907 (United Kingdom), free-,” be added.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

.- I think that the word “ unfinished,” inserted on the suggestion of the honorable member for Yarra, is not at all suitable, in view of the fact that these are all finished parts, though some of them may be unplated. The whole object of admitting these parts free will Le defeated if the word “ unfinished “ be allowed to remain.

Sir William Lyne:

– We cannot go back.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– Then I .should suggest that the Treasurer should arrange for a recommittal, or for the necessary rectification in another place.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 377. Vehicles, viz. : -

  1. Boston Chaises, Dog Carts, Gigs, Tilburys, and other two-wheeled Vehicles on springs or thorough braces, each (Genera1! Tariff), £6 12s. ; (United Kingdom), £6………
Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- Here we have an item with fixed .duties only, and I suggest that an ad valorem duty ought to be substituted.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We might take a test vote 011 this paragraph, as to the whole of the vehicles in the division.

Mr WILKS:

– That might be done. Do I understand that the Treasurer will consent to the striking out of the fixed duties ?

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr WILKS:

– Then I think the division will provoke some debate, because, in view of previous decisions, uniformity ought to be preserved. I should be quite prepared, in the case of paragraph a, to vote for duties of 30 per cent, and 25 per cent., which would be an- increase of 5 per cent, on the old duties.

Sir William Lyne:

– In one column only.

Mr WILKS:

– As an argument for ad valorem duties, let me point us that if the division be passed as proposed, a sulky which sells at ,£14 or ^£15 will pay exactly the same duty as a dog cart worth ^70 or .£80.

Sir William Lyne:

– That is not so.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– How many of these vehicles are imported?

Mr WILKS:

– No doubt the vehicle industry has progressed considerably, and there is very little importation; but that only provides a reason why the Treasurer should not propose duties so high. Under the old Tariff, vehicles to the value of £2,500,000 per annum were made in the Commonwealth.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Dog carts, gigs, tilburys, and other two-wheeled vehicles are imported to a larger extent than “almost any other kind of vehicles, and are sold at ;£io, and. sometimes less. They are the easiest class of vehicles to construct,, and, therefore, an ad valorem duty would be of no avail Some honorable members may think the’ proposed duty high,, but, in my opinion, every one of those cheap articles ought to be made here.

Mr Salmon:

– The imported vehicles rattle to pieces in a few months.

Mr Wilks:

– An ^80 dog cart does not rattle to pieces in a few months.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not think that dog carts will come under this item, but under another designation of vehicle.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– They must; there are the words “ Dog Carts.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– However, I should like to test the question whether the duties shall be fixed or ad valorem, although, as I have indicated, I am opposed to the latter form of impost. The test might be taken on an amendment to strike out the word “each.”

Amendment (by Mr. Wilks) proposed -

That the word “each” be left out.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– I would point out to the honorable member for Dalley that in order to encourage the local production of the raw material of the coachbuilder we have already increased the . duties formerly levied upon buggy shafts, varnishes, and quite a number of other articles.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We have imposed an ad valorem rate upon buggy shafts.

Mr CROUCH:

– Yes; and previously they were admitted free, whereas they are now dutiable at 30 per cent. In the same way, bent poles were previously admitted free; but they are now subject to a duty of 2s. 6d. each. The coachbuilders, therefore, do not now occupy the position that they formerly occupied. The cost of their Haw material has been increased, and consequently it becomes necessary to increase the duty upon the manufactured article: If we desire to have these vehicles manufactured locally, we should retain the fixed duty proposed by the Government.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is difficult to know exactly what some honorable members desire in regard to the duties upon vehicles. The honorable member for Corio has purported to speak on behalf of the coachbuilders of Australia. I hold in my hand a request from the coachbuilders of Victoria and New South Wales that the duties levied under the old Tariff should be retained.

Sir John Quick:

– But they desire to have their parts admitted free.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They do not. They are quite willing that the parts shall be subjected to duty.

Mr Crouch:

– If they got their parts free they would not require any increase in the duty upon their manufactured article.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In the circular, to which I have referred they de clare that they are quite prepared to pay a duty upon a great many of their parts. If there is one industry in the Commonwealth which is able to hold its own against the competition of the world, it is that of the manufacture of vehicles.

Sir William Lyne:

– Oh, no.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Treasurer evidently knows nothing whatever about the matter.

Sir William Lyne:

– I know something about it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The total importation of vehicles into the Commonwealth for 1906 was valued at ^£9,509.

Sir William Lyne:

– The honorable member will find that the imports in respect of other classes of vehicles during that year were valued at ^£175,451-

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The figures quoted by the Treasurer relate to the importation of parts. I am speaking of the value of the completed vehicles imported, and I have quoted the figures supplied by the Customs Department. The total value of the trade, I am informed, is £2, 500,000 annually. Our coachbuilders have captured that trade under the old rates of duty.

Mr Mathews:

– We had better wipe them out.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It seems to me that they have already captured the trade. I hope that they will continue to ma.ke all the vehicles required in the Commonwealth. But as that they are already doing that, it seems the height of absurdity to increase these duties. The specific duties proposed by the Treasurer are unreasonable. To associate fixed duties with values which are necessarily varying is an act of absurdity. To tax a vehicle which costs £10 at the same amount, as one which costs ^70 or ^80 is perfectly preposterous. I know that fixed duties are very convenient from .the Customs stand-point, but that fact should not be permitted to prevent us from doing justice all round.

Mr Mathews:

– Let us impose an ad valorem rate as an alternative to a fixed duty and charge whichever rate may be the higher.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is like a sailing ship, in that he wishes to set his sails to catch every favorable breeze. I trust that we shall abolish the fixed duties in respect pf vehicles and revert to the old rate of 25 per cent, which I think will afford the industry ample protection. The official statistics prove that the industry is able to stand against all competition.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- I intend to vote against the imposition of fixed duties upon vehicles, because I realize that under their operation those who drive “the mose expensive vehicles would pay the least. I am quite prepared to support an ad valorem rate of 35 or 40 per cent, in view of the fact that we have already inteased the cost of the construction of these vehicles.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- With the exception of the very highest class of vehicles, such as barouches and landaus, and some of the cheaper classes of buggies, there is a very small importation of vehicles into the Commonwealth. The reason is that the foreign vehicles are built too lightly to withstand use on Australian roads.

Mr Wilks:

– And the freight charges are very heavy.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Undoubtedly the cost of importation is considerable, because vehicles take up a large quantity of space. If we compare the importation of vehicles into the Commonwealth prior to Federation with the present importation, we shall find that there has been a tremendous falling-off. From the Statistical Register I gather that in j 900 the value of the importations under this heading was as follows: - New South Wales £11,382. Victoria £5,902> Queensland £1,436”, South Australia .£5,669, Western Australia £1,113, and Tasmania £96, or a total of £25,600. From the Trade and Customs Returns I gather that the imports last year from the United Kingdom were valued at £1,274, those from the United States at £8,117, and those from all other countries at £208, or a total of £9,599. As against this total there were re-exports to the extent of £92j which really reduced the value of the total imports last year to £9»5°7, as against £25,600 for 1900. In regard to the opinions of the coachBuilders, some evidence which was given before the Victorian Tariff Board is very interesting reading just now. It shows that even so far back as then, when the industry was not in nearly so flourishing a condition as it is in to-day, the coachbuilders did not want any more protection. In fact, many of them complained that the high Tariff was really a source of irritation to them, if it did not indeed involve them in considerable loss.

Mr Mathews:

– That is a good old argument, but it will not go down.

Mr JOHNSON:

– It may not go down with the honorable member; but may. I remind him that it is evidence given by the coachbuilders themselves?

Sir John Quick:

– What is the name of the witness?

Mr JOHNSON:

– It is a case of not one witness, but several witnesses. I know that -if I were to make an ex parte statement, it would not make any impression upon the honorable member for Melbourne Ports or the honorable member for Bendigo; but surely’ they will not refuse to accept the evidence of those who are interested in the manufacture of vehicles.

Sir John Quick:

– It is the evidence of mere assemblers of parts, and not ot coachbuilders

Mr JOHNSON:

– If the honorable member will be patient, he will -hear the names of the coachbuilders. On page 61 Mr. Donald McCall, coachbuilder, of Warracknabeal, gave evidence. Probably the Honorable member who represents that district may know the witness.

Sir John Quick:

– He wants free parts.

Mr JOHNSON:

– He wants free-trade in the whole industry. He said -

I think that if coachbuilders were not protected at all they could hold their own ground. The coachmaking industry does not require any protection. In New South Wales the coachbuilding industry is one of the most nourishing.

In New South Wales the coachbuilders had not protection tq anything like the same extent as in Victoria. This witness also protested against duties on the material used.

Sir John Quick:

– I thought so. He wants free parts.

Mr JOHNSON:

– The honorable member is misrepresenting the matter. Mr. McCall wanted more than free parts. He said the industry itself did not require any protection. He protested against the dutyproposed for that reason, and he further protested against the duty on parts.

Mr Salmon:

– Warracknabeal was then represented in the State Parliament by a free-trader; but in this Parliament it is represented by an out-and-out protectionist.

Mr JOHNSON:

– What has that to do with this evidence?

Mr Salmon:

– Everything. It shows the change in public opinion.

Mr JOHNSON:

– It cannot change the sworn evidence. I am noi quoting a statement made by any one who was in Parliament, but a statement by a coach- builder in whose interests the duty was supposed to have been imposed

Mr Salmon:

– That is fifteen years ago.

Mr JOHNSON:

– If the coachbuilders in Victoria could do without the duty fifteen years ago, how- much better can they do without it to-day, when the trade is represented to be worth £2,500,000? Surely if they could do without the duty then, they can do without it far better now?

Mr Salmon:

– They were not doing without the duty.

Mr JOHNSON:

– But thev wanted the duty removed. At that time they had much greater competition from abroad than they have to-day, the importations having fallen from ,£25,600 to £9,000 worth. To all intents and purposes the importation of these vehicles has ceased, so that the local makers have acquired, practically a monopoly of the trade built up under the old duties.

Mr Mathews:

– Marvellous.

Mr JOHNSON:

– These are the bald facts, and there is no getting behind them. Let us see what another coachbuilder said before the Victorian Tariff Board. Mr. William Gibson Hart, coachbuilder and agricultural Implement maker, of Rochester, in Victoria, gave the following evidence -

Providing the duties were swept away on all the material you use, would you be prepared to forego all duties’ on the manufactured article? - Yes, certainly.

You would compete against the outside world without any protective duty ? - Well, I believe I could. ‘

Let me now quote the evidence of Mr. John Donnellan, coachbuilder, of Bendigo.

Sir John Quick:

– He wants free paris. He is a very decent fellow,’ and a good coachbuilder.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Then I presume the honorable member will not contemptuously refer to him as a mere assembler of parts. He said -

I represent the Cochbuilding Society. . . We maintain that the trade is now so restricted, that we have to employ very few hands, because the public demand is for a cheap article, and, owing to the excessive duties, we cannot make that cheap article.

Mark ! “ owing to the excessive duties “ -

The little we can do, the industry will not be a success to us or to the rising generation. The Tariff in Sydney is lower than in Victoria : the consequence is that nearly every one who has a stake in New South Wales has a cart - novelties on wheels that we know nothing of in Victoria, and we cannot produce these here owing to excessive duties.

That is the evidence of a coachbuilder who we are assured by the honorable member for Bendigo is a very decent and reliable man.

Sir John Quick:

– t He must have changed his opinion since then.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Let me now take the evidence of Mr. John William Clapham, representing the Victorian Carriage Company, of Melbourne, and appointed by the coachbuilding trade to give evidence before the Victorian Tariff Board -

You think the present duties on vehicles ‘ should be maintained? - No; I am prepared, as one of the trade, to submit to a reduction. I would make a reduction of 50 per cent, all round.

Mr. John Stickland, coachbuilder, of Melbourne, gave this evidence -

Do you go in for abolishing the duty on vehicles? - I should think seriously about doing it personally.

Do you agree with the previous witness in reducing them one-half? - Certainly.

Mr. Joseph Donnelly, coachbuilder, of Melbourne, and chairman of a public meeting of the carriage trade, gave the following evidence -

I understand the summing-up of your evidence, and I want to know if it represents the whole of the trade ; are materials to be free and vehicles free?- No; I cannot say that represents the trade. I sneak individually there. At the meeting, the majority were in favour - sooner than pay a high rate on the materials - of having the goods (vehicles) in free.

I could quote passage after passage to the like effect from other witnesses in the trade all over Victoria, if honorable members desired, but I think that the evidence I have cited is sufficiently convincing to show even the most ardent protectionist that no duty at all is required. The Minister has not given any reason why the old duty should be increased, nor is the increase supported by anything I have seen in the reports of the Tariff Commission. So far as I can learn there has not been any demand for the additional duty. Therefore I shall do what I can not only to oppose the increased duty but to try to get a reduction.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- I suggest to the Minister that it might save time if a test vote were taken on this line.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We propose to take a test vote on an amendment to strike out the word “each.”

Mr GLYNN:

– I was not aware of the arrangement. But in connexion with that test, it will be necessary for the Minister to make a special provision, in the Tariff

Bill.. As a rule, when we remove a duty we insert words to the effect that on and after the following day the article shall be free, thus validating what has been done up to that date. But it is now proposed to strike the word “ each “ out of this line. I hope it will be deleted, but with saving words. . If it is deleted, without saving words, those persons who have paid the fixed duty up to to-day can sue “the Government for a refund, because we shall not have validated what has been done previously.

Sir John Quick:

– Surely the honorable member does not propose to upset the previous collections ?

Mr GLYNN:

– I have pointed out this matter two or three times. We were perfectly safe so long as we provided that on and after the following day the duty should bc so much, but what we are asked to do now is to strike out the word “each.”

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– But that will b» followed by a proposal to insert the words “and on and after to-day,” &c.

Mr GLYNN:

– If we only strike out the word “ each “ it will mean that up to today a specific duty of £fi 12s. on each vehicle has been wrongly levied. What we ought to do is to provide that -up to to-day the duty on each vehicle shall be £6 12s.

Mr Page:

– It has been done in this way in the case of several items.

Mr GLYNN:

– Yes, but it has been wrongly done. I believe that if only the word “ each “ is struck out any importer who likes to sue for the excess duty will be entitled to recover it.

Sir John Quick:

– Is it not a Tariff proposition until it is altered?

Mr GLYNN:

– It is a proposition on which the Government levy a certain duty, trusting to the validation of that act in the Customs Tariff Bill. For that reason we provide that up to to-day the duty shall be sn much and after to-day so much, but we are now asked to strike out the word “‘each.’*

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We might insert after “ £6 “ the provision that on and after nth December the duty be ‘a certain percentage.

Mr GLYNN:

– That is exactly what I have said. What we ought to do is to provide that on and after the nth December the duty be 25 per cent. If it is put in that way the provision will be perfectly valid. The Act which we shall pass embodying the Tariff will validate what has been done in the past; but as the proposal stands at present we shall be striking out the basis upon which the specific duty has been levied during the last few months.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– We have two points to consider, first whether we will depart from the general principle of this Tariff, and adopt a specific duty in lieu of an ad valorem rate; and secondly what the duty is to be. I am glad to know that the attention of the Committee has been centered upon the issue whether we shall adopt an ad valorem rate instead of a specific duty. The point raised by the honorable member for Angas may, I think, be met in the way he suggests, or by adopting the suggestion of the honorable member for Dalley, and testing the feeling of the Committee upon the question of eliminating the word “ each.” If the word is struck out we might insert the provision that on and after nth December, an ad’ valorem rate be imposed. W’ith respect to the question of specific duties, as against an ad valorem duty, I invite the attention of the Committee to the fact that practically the decision of the Committee, so far has been adverse to the adoption of specific duties. In addition, the coachbuilders themselves who are primarily affected are in favour of an ad valorem rate. I find from a circular which they have issued that the Master Coachbuilders and Wheelwrights’ Association felt so much ‘ interested in this particular matter that, after the trade in Victoria and New South Wales had considered it, they held a conference in Melbourne, with the object of making certain representations to the Minister. I find that they were unanimously in favour of an ad valorem dutv as against a specific rate. When a previous item was under consideration it was proposed to place a specific duty on shafts, poles, and so forth, but the Committee decided to eliminate the specific duty, and impose an ad valorem rate. I think honorable members will be wise in continuing the policy thus initiated in regard to the item under review. The Minister seems to be afraid that a number of importations of manufactured buggies or conveyances of different kinds would enter into serious competition with: the local manufacturers if the specific duties were abolished. The best authorities on that point are the manufacturers themselves. In their circular they say that the annual consumption of carriages, waggons, drays, and so forth amounts to no less a sum than £2, 000,000, or, including repairs, £2,500,000 per annum. On that large amount of consumption the imports that entered into competition last year have been reduced to less than £10,000. According to the Minister’s returns, the imports for the year 1906 were only , £9.500. The honorable member for Lang has informed the Committee that, according to the Commonwealth statistics, prior to the introduction of the first uniform Tariff the importations amounted to something like £25,600.

Mr Chanter:

– That was because of the free importations into New South Wales.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The figures were partly, but not wholly, accounted for by the free importations into New South Wales. The total imports into New South Wales were about £11,000 out of a total of £25,000. Since the imposition of the duty of 25 per cent, under the old Tariff, the imports have been reduced down to the very small figure of , £9,500 in a total consumption of £2,500,000 per annum. Those figures show how completely the local manufacturers have . captured the trade, and that they have nothing to fear from importations on the basis of the old Tariff. The members of the trade who have issued this circular, indicate that they wish to have the whole matter adjusted on an ad valorem basis. The circular is signed by F. Skinner, W. H. Stevens, Dan White, F. C Wilmot, and J. W. Waring, on behalf of the Master Coachbuilders and Wheelwrights’ Association of Victoria, and by Mr. G. H. Olding, on behalf of a special meeting of Sydney Master Coachbuilders, held on 23rd August, 1907. Mr. Olding also, I am informed, represented eighteen leading coachbuilders of New South Wales, who do not belong to the association, but who commissioned him to represent their views as being identical with those of the Association. In addition, if the evidence taken before the Tariff Commission be examined, it will be found that testimony was tendered on behalf of the South Australian, association identical with the recommendations of the conference. In view of this expert evidence, I trust that, first of all, the Committee will adopt the ad valorem method in preference to the specific duty proposed by the Treasurer. The great injustice that will be inflicted by the adoption of the Minister’s proposal is that the cheaper conveyances will bear the same amount of taxation as will the more expensive ones. No distinction is drawn; and that means that the taxation will fall heavier upon those who are compelled to use the cheaper conveyances, such as sulkies, dogcarts, and spring carts, which are generally used in the country districts rather than in the cities, and especially by graziers and settlers, to do their tighter work.

Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs · Protectionist

– The honorable member for Dalley asks the Committee to agree to omit the word “each,” and to . impose a fixed duty. I understand that the honorable member desires first of all to test the principle whether we shall have an ad valorem or a fixed duty. His idea, therefore, is to eliminate the word “ each,” but it governs the whole item, and I point out that to protect the. revenue it is necessary to keep the item intact. It would be better to test the question in some other way.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I think that the sense of the Committee can be ascertained by the honorable member for Dalley moving to insert the words “ ad valorem “ after the figures “ £6.” If that be agreed to an amendment can be submitted to the effect that on and after nth December, the ditty be so and so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Wilks) proposed -

That after the figure “ £6,” paragraph A, the words “and on and after11th December, 1007, ad val.,” be inserted.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- Having heard the arguments on this item, and in- view of the decision of the Committee to apply an ad valorem duty to bicycles, I feel disposed to vote for the imposition of an ad valorem duty in this case. With a view to the speedy settlement of the question, I should be prepared to vote for duties of 35 per cent, and 30 per cent.

Mr Wilks:

– That is what I intend to propose.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Apparently honorable members have made up their minds that we should impose ad valorem instead of fixed duties on this item. That being so. it is useless to spend time in further discussing the matter, and I, therefore, propose to move the imposition of duties of 35 per cent. and 30 per cent.

Mr Batchelor:

– That will do.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– When the item of bicycles was under consideration I felt, as I feel now, that it would be very much better to apply specific duties, and I wish the Committee now to arrive at a decision that will cover the whole of the paragraphs in the item with which we are dealing. If the honorable member for Dalley will withdraw his amendment, I shall move in the direction I have indicated.

Mr Mathews:

– What is the use of duties of 35 per cent, and 30 per cent. ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– There is no chance of our carrying a fixed duty.

Mr Mathews:

– I must admit that in a free-trade House it is hardly worth while endeavouring to do so !

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– When the item of bicycles was under consideration, I was attacked for proposing what I thought the Committee would agree to - the imposition of a fixed duty instead of an ad valorem one. It has been clearly shown during this debate that there is no likelihood of our carrying a specific duty in connexion with this item, and, that being so, I shall propose duties of 35 per cent, and 30 per cent.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figure “£6 “ the words “and on and after nth December,1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 3? per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.’

Paragraph (b). Buggies, four-wheeled Waggons, for carrying goods ; Waggons, single or double-seated ; Waggons, Express ; without tops, mounted on springs or thorough braces, each (General Tariff), £9 18s. ; (United Kingdom),

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Under the Tariff of 1902 a duty of 25 per cent, was imposed on these vehicles. I, therefore, propose to move duties of 35 per cent, and 30 per cent, in the case of paragraphs b, c, d, and e. I move -

That after the figure “£9” the words “and on and after11th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (C). Hansom Cabs; Single and double-seated Waggons ; Waggonettes ; Fourwheeled Buggies; with tops, each (General Tariff), £13 4s. ; (United Kingdom), £12.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “ £12 “ the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (d). Omnibuses and Coaches for carrying mails or passengers, each (General Tariff),£27 10s. ; (United Kingdom), £25.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “£25 “ the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (e). Barouches, Broughams, Drags, Landaus, Mail Phaetons, Victorias, each (General Tariff),344 ; (United Kingdom),£40.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “£40 “ the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30. per cent.,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (f). All Carts and Waggons (without springs) and Spring Carts and Spring Drays, with two wheels, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.: (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That after the words “ 20 per cent.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- The protectionist section of the Tariff Commission recommended a lower duty than existed in respect of this paragraph under the old Tariff.

Mr Storrer:

– In dealing with the other paragraphs, we have departed from their recommendations.

Mr FRAZER:

– That is so ; but for the most part their recommendations were for fixed duties on vehicles, although an ad valorem duty was recommended in respect of this paragraph.

Sir John Quick:

– Because we have in this case a generalization of items.

Mr FRAZER:

– The protectionist section of the Tariff Commission must have had good reason for proposing that the old duty should be reduced.

Sir John Quick:

– That may be an anomaly, or the result of a mistake.

Mr FRAZER:

– I must admit that waggons, carts, and drays are largely made in Australia. If the Chairman of the Tariff Commission thinks that a mistake has been made, I will accept his assurance.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– I think that some consideration should be given to the carter, who under this item will be charged £12 on the ordinary tip dray.

Mr Batchelor:

– There is keen competition in the manufacture of these vehicles, and that will keep down prices.

Mr McWILLIAMS:

– In most of these cases it is the Tariff that regulates prices. I think that 30 per cent, is too heavy a duty to impose on a means of earning a livelihood.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (g). All Carriages or Conveyances, n.e.i., Hand Trucks and parts n.e.i. of Vehicles, including Axles and Springs when imported separately, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I move -

That the words” including Axles and Springs when imported separatelv,” be left out.

In the old Tariff, axles and springs were dealt with separately, being dutiable at 15 per cent. I do not suggest that we should go back to the old duty, but I am of opinion that in this, as in the old Tariff, we should differentiate between the raw material and the finished article. Carriages and conveyances might well be dutiable at the rate set down, but axles and springs should be taxed at a lower rate. We should give the same treatment to axles and springs as to buggy parts. Axles are imported in halves or “ arms,” and are welded together and adapted to the various width’s of vehicles by the local coachsmiths.

Mr Storrer:

– It would give more work if they were made here.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It would give more work if the honorable member had to row to Launceston instead of travelling there by steamer.

Mr WILKS:

– Axles are raw material to coachbuilders, who should be able to obtain them as cheaply as possible. There are at least 180 different patterns, and surely no honorable member will contend that” we have here factories which can turn out so many patterns. I desire that axles and springs shall be treated in the same way as buggy shafts and parts. Springs come out in bundles, and, of course, the rates which I wish to impose would apply only to bulk importations. As a freetrader, I am going a great way to meet protectionists in what I have proposed.

Sir William Lyne:

– I have been specially asked by coachbuilders not to . agree to this reduction.

Mr WILKS:

– I have not been invited to move this amendment, but I would point out that the right honorable member for Adelaide, a strong protectionist, made a similar differentiation.

Mr Batchelor:

– And killed an industry.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Ina communication which I have had from a large coachmaker in my electorate, he points out that this item covers a good deal of material used by coachmakers which must be imported. He says that a difference must be made between the raw material of the coachbuilder and the manufactured article, and that a good deal of raw material which was dutiable at 15 per cent, is now dutiable at 30 and 25 per cent. He would like to see the old duty continued, and suggests that this paragraph should be subdivided into three sections, the first dealing with carriages, conveyances, traps, and parts n.e.i., and the second with vehicle parts n.e.i. not previously fitted to any vehicle. That proposal is intended to overcome a difficulty experienced under the old Tariff, by preventing the introduction of parts brought in so finished that they had simply to be put together. The third subdivision would deal with axles and arms not welded together, in lots of not less than a dozen each.

Mr Batchelor:

– This arrangement might suit his business, but it would injure that of others who make axles.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Axles are largely imported from America and from England.

Mr Page:

– Cannot they be made in Australia ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The steel is imported shaped ready for use, and the socalled making consists of turning it into shape. Most of the axles for light conveyances come from America, and those for large vehicles from England. There are only a couple of places in- Melbourne where axles are made, and the making is a very little matter. The axle-making industry in Australia is really, a small thing, and it would be a serious matter to penalize the coachbuilders of the Commonwealth, in order to protect it. The coachbuilders, in the country districts, at all events, desire to obtain axles and other buggy parts at lower rates of duty than are charged on finished vehicles, so that they may have a sufficient margin to enable them to compete against manufacturers abroad. What is required is a difference in the duty imposed on parts which require to be fitted together, chiefly on axles, and the duty imposed on the same parts when imported in a completed vehicle. I hope the Minister will agree to some distinction being made for the protection of manufacturers who import these parts as their raw material.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

.- The honorable member for Calare cannot be making his appeal in the interest of the consumer, who would not be benefited by what he proposes, but in the interests of persons who desire that the coachbuilding industry, instead” of being an industry for the complete manufacture of vehicles, should be merely one for the assembling of parts of vehicles. That is the very thing we should try to avoid. The manufacture of axles was really one of the strangled industries. Under the legislation of the States it enjoyed a pretty high measure of protection and was well established, but under the 1 5 per cent, duty of the last Commonwealth Tariff its continuance was endangered.

Mr Wilks:

– There were two factories in Melbourne.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– The plant required is not expensive, and there is no reason why coachbuilders generally should not also manufacture axles. If we give them sufficient protection they will do so, but they are unable to do so with a duty of only 15 per cent. It should be mentioned that as a matter of fact patent axles, though correctly described as such when we were boys, no longer exist, because the patents have run out, and they can be and are being made here.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- In reply to the honorable member for Boothby, I have only to say that the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 25 per cent.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived

That after the words “25 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the words “ 25 per cent.,” the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad. val. (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be added.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (h). Parts of Carriages -

  1. Sets of Wheels (unbored and untyred), per set (General Tariff), 33s. ; (United Kingdom), 30s.
  2. Sets of Wheels (bored and tyred), per set (General Tariff), 49s. 6d. ; (United Kingdom), 45s.
  3. Under Gear (including Axles, Springs, and Arms), per set (General Tariff), 66s. ; (United Kingdom), 60s.
  4. Buggy Hoods, each (General Tariff).,. 49s. 6d. ; (United Kingdom), 45s.
  5. Carriage Bodies, in the white, each (General Tariff), 88s. ; (United Kingdom), 80s.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That an asterisk be inserted before subparagraphs a and b, with a view to adding an asterisk with a foot-note at the bottom of page 41,. reading “ A set consists of four wheels.”

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I hope the Minister will be prepared to accept ad valorem duties in this paragraph.

Sir William Lyne:

– I intend to propose them.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That after the figures “ 30s.,” sub-paragraph a, the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), . 30 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- I desire to propose a reduction of duty to 30 per cent, in both columns. The Treasurer’s proposal is altogether too high.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Committee has already negatived a proposal for a duty of 30 per cent, in the first column.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “30s.,” sub-paragraph a, the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “45s.,” sub-paragraph b, the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent,; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,.” be inserted.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What is the meaning of the words “ bored and tyred,” in sub-paragraph b? I am both.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “60s. , “ sub-paragraph c, the words “and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Is there any need for such high duties on buggy hoods? The proposal is absurd. A continuance of this kind of thing would make anybody not only tired and bored, but sick to death. A duty of 35 per cent, is proposed on one of the simplest forms of manufacture, when we have -put only 25 per cent, on some of the most complicated forms of manufacture in Australia, requiring the greatest possible :skill and ingenuity in construction. I shall propose duties of 25 per cent.’ and 20 per cent.

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) negatived -

That after the figures “45s.,” sub-paragraph d, the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.; (United Kingdom), free,” be inserted.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That after the figures “45s.,” sub-paragraph . <*, the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.; <United Kingdom), 20 per cent.,” be inserted.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) -agreed to -

That after the figures “4S>->” sub-paragraph d, *he words “and on and after nth December, j 907, ad val. (General Tariff). 35 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent., be inserted.

That after the figures “80s.,” sub-paragraph e, the words “ and on and after nth December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent.; < United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Paragraph (1). Motor Lorries and Waggons, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the following words be added to para* graph 1: - “and on and after nth December, 1907, (a) Bodies for Motor Lorries and Waggons and parts thereof n.e.i., ad val. (GeneralTariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent. ; (£) Chassis for . Motor Waggons and Lorries, ad .val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.”

None of these chassis are likely to be made here during our ‘time, but the carriage part could, and should, be made in Australia.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

– I arn glad that the Treasurer has submitted this amendment; but I suggest that steel stamped panels which, are used for the stiffening of the seats, and are made by only one firm in England, should be made subject to the same duty as the chassis. This would encourage the- building of the bodies of the car in Australia, which are worth from ,£30 to £6$, according to the style and finish.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– 1 think I have made the most liberal provision. There’ is already a reasonable protection on bodies, and persons who require these little things might reasonably be expected to pay the higher duty for them.

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph (]). Motor Cars, and parts thereof, including tyres when accompanying vehicles, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following words be added to paragraph J: - “ and on and after nth December, 1907, (a) Bodies for Motor Cars and parts thereof n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent. ; .(i) Chassis for Motor Cars, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.”

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We have already made rubber tires dutiable at 25 per cent, and 20 per cent., and I do not see why they should pay a higher duty if they accompany trie vehicle.

Mr Harper:

– I suggest that the language of the old Tariff be adopted, so as to allow one set of tires in free.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I agree with that suggestion.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not know that even one tire should be admitted duty free.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– That is one question, but there is the other question of charging the higher duty when the tires accompany the vehicle.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– It. strikes me that if I omitted the. words “including tires when accompanying vehicles,” then the. duty will refer only - to the cars, and tires will come under another item.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I .do not think that- would be so, because the tires will come in as part of the car. I think that the suggestion of the honorable member for Mernda might be adopted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– If I strike out the words to which, I have referred, that will dispose of this duty on the tires, and I can move a sub-paragraph to make them subject to a duty df 5 per cent, and free.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- The tires on a motor car will come in as part of the car, arid be subject to duties of .35 and 30 per cent. As a matter of fact, motor cars are actually being made in Aus* tralia at the present time.

Sir William Lyne:

– Boat motors are being made, but they are not the same.

Mr PALMER:

– I happen to know that complete motor cars are being made at Tarrant’s, because I have seen the parts (in the rough before they have been put on the lathe.

Sir William Lyne:

– I will withdraw my amendment, and submit one in an altered form.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following words be added to paragraph ]: - “and on and after 11th December, 1907, (a) Bodies for motor cars and parts thereof n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent. -, (i) Chassis for motor cars and rubber tyres for one car, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free,” be added.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.I consider that the manufacturers of motor cars, to whom I have already referred, are entitled to a certain measure of protection. I can assure the Treasurer that the meta used in their construction is cast here. In fact, that everything used in their manufacture is made here.

Sir William Lyne:

– If the statement of the honorable member should prove to be correct, I will have the matter adjusted in some way.

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 7294

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the House at its rising adjourn until 1 1 a.m. to-day (Wednesday).

page 7294

QUESTION

INFORMAL PETITION

Mr SPEAKER:

– I desire to inform honorable members- that my attention has been called to the petition which was pre- - sented this afternoon by the . honorable member for Kooyong, and which I notice is addressed to the Speaker and members of the Legislative’ Assembly of Victoria. It deals with. Tariff questions throughout, but, as it is wrongly addressed, I have ordered the record of its reception to be erased.

House adjourned at ia.5 a.m. (Wednesday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 10 December 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19071210_reps_3_42/>.