House of Representatives
6 December 1907

3rd Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m., and read prayers.

page 7111

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL SITE

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– As the promise given by Ministers at the. beginning of this session, that an opportunity would be afforded, before its close, to consider the question of the Federal Capital site, does not seem possible of fulfilment before the Christmas adjournment, might I ask . the Prime Minister if, in arranging the course of business to be done on the re-assembling of the House after that adjournment, the question will be given an early place in the list of matters which we will be asked to consider?

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– At the present time it would be premature to attempt to indicate the precise date’ when we shall be able to deal with this question. But the first opportunity affording any guarantee that Parliament is able to come to a decision upon the question will be seized. There will certainly be no avoidable delay-. The honorable member will realise, as we do, that the whole of the difficulty in the settlement of the question arises from the fact that all except the supporters of the particular site most in favour, unite to prevent progress, in order that other sites which they prefer may have a chance of consideration. If we can overcome that obstacle, the Government may be relied upon to afford every facility for an early settlement of the question.

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to ask the Minister, whose Department is concerned in the matter in reference to the report of Mr. De Burgh, on the water, supply of Canberra, which has been circulated, and which refers to certain maps, whether the maps will be made available to honorable members ?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I will inquire from the Home Affairs Department, which, I assume, will be in possession of maps that can be placed on the Library table.

page 7111

QUESTION

DUTIES OF CAPTAIN COLLINS

Mr CROUCH:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister if his attention has been directed to some recent utterances by Captain Collins in London, referred to in cables which appeared in the. newspapers last week and to-day ? Last week’s cables credited Captain Collins with having said that the preference now being given to GreatBritainisonly an earnest of future concessions in the same direction. I wish to ask what really is the position which Captain Collins occupies in London. Is fie a financial expert, an examiner of Defence stores, or a political agent generally ? Does the Prime Minister think it right that Australian public servants in London should take it upon themselves to represent his views on Australian policy at political gatherings?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The position that Captain Collins occupies is that of an officer charged with certain definite duties in regard to purchases for the Defence Department, the conduct of other ordinary business, and also special duties which he is, from time to time, authorized to undertake. I have, noticed the semi-political remarks made by Captain Collins on one or two public occasions, but they have been such as I think no exception could be taken to, because in each case he has simply repeated, generally in the same words, statements which have been made on behalf of the Government, and chiefly by myself, either here or in England. I have not noticed that he has ever done more than repeat statements of that kind, or has made any statements of his own opinions.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Is it wise to make Captain Collins the mouth-piece of the honorable gentleman’s political views?

Mr CROUCH:

– I understand that the Prime Minister does not disapprove of a permanent public servant, in the person of Captain Collins, expressing political opinions at public meetings, on the ground that that gentleman has previously made statements which are an echo or repetition of the views of the Government or ofthe Prime Minister himself. Does the Prime Minister not see that such a course of action will mean that in the event of an undesired change of Ministry Captain Collins’ usefulness will at once be terminated ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No; Captain Collins could do the same for another Ministry.

Mr CROUCH:

– I desire to know if the Prime Minister does not think it desirable that Captain Collins should cea se to make public political statements?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I think there is every objection to a public servant making statements which can have the slightest party bearing or which contain a political reference to any question then in contention. But while this officer is in London, and speaking at a gathering of a Colonial Club, where the members or audience consist almost wholly of Australians, it is not at. all out of order, in acknowledging the toast of the Commonwealth, to make statements of a general character when they are in harmony with the current opinion of the Commonwealth. Captain Collins does not speak with any personal accent ; and while I should be the first to jealously resist any attempt on the part of an officer to express opinions on political questions, a general statement of the development of the country or the movement of public affairs in the Commonwealth ought not to be too captiously criticised.

Mr Crouch:

– Captain Collins has expressed political opinions of which I and other . honorable members disapprove.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Exactly; but there is no opinion which can be expressed on any subject that some one will not disapprove ; consequently, either there must be absolute silence or some general permission of the sort so long as it is not abused.

page 7112

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORYT RAN SCONTI NE NT AL RAILWAY

Mr GLYNN:
ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question without notice. A telegram appears in this morning’s newspapers to the effect that the motion affirming the conditions on which the proposed surrender of the Northern Territory to the Commonwealth has been passed by both Houses of the Parliament of South Australia. As the terms of the agreement involve the consent of South Australia to the survey and construction of a line to Western Australia, I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he can say what route is likely to be chosen for the construction of the railway, and whether in determining the route the Government will consider the advisableness of taking the line through country in South Australia that is susceptible of development?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– I have observed with great satisfaction the passage of the motion referred to in both Houses of the South Australian Parliament. In regard to the honorable gentleman’s second question, so far as I am aware, there are but two alternative routes from Port Augusta which have been proposed as those which the future line should follow ; one to the north of Lake Gardiner and the other to the south, skirting the coast. The only advantages, so far as I am aware, claimed for the southern route, are that it would be somewhat shorter, and be more inexpensive to construct. But there are grave strategic dangers which must be taken into account when carrying an important connexion such as this would be so close to the sea, and therefore open at any time to possible severance from the sea.

Mr Glynn:

– There is also the objection that that route would take the line through the poorest country.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Of that I am not able personally to speak. The other route which would pass to’ the northward of Lake Gardiner, would take the line in the neighbourhood of what are believed to be very -large mineral deposits.

Mr Glynn:

– And through hundreds of square miles of pastoral country.

Mr DEAKIN:

– It would involve, I think, no very material increase in the length of the line. Although the purpose of such a railway would be to connect the western State with the eastern States, from which it is at present severed, the necessity for making the line self-supporting cannot be overlooked. Whichever route afforded the greatest possibilities of local earnings would naturally be selected. I am sure that any Federal Parliament , would lend an attentive ear to representations from either of the States through which it will pass, offered by those most competent to offer a valuable opinion.

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Before asking the Prime Minister a question without notice, I should like to refer to the very satisfactory news- of this morning, as to the passing of the Northern Territory resolution in the Legislative Council of South Australia. I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether he will take steps to urge the South Australian Government to give their consent to the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway survey, which was recently authorized by the Commonwealth Parliament, subject to the proviso that, before any money is expended the assent of the Parliament of South Australia must be obtained to the survey being made in that State. I make this request because it may be thought that the South Australian Parliament, having assented to the Northern Territory transfer Bill, which contains a provision authorizing the survey and construction of the railway through South Australia, from Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie, there is no necessity for its assent to the survey to which I have referred. I point out to the Prime Minister, however, that if that view were taken much undesirable delay would result, as some months may elapse before the Northern Territory Transfer Bill comes before the Federal Parliament. I think it only requires the question to be brought prominently under the notice of the South Australian Parliament, that the assent of the Parliament of that State is necessary before the Commonwealth Government can spend any funds on the survey, to insure immediate attention to the matter. It is most probable that the South Australian Government will attend to the matter with-, out any special request ; but still I should be glad if the Prime Minister will make a representation on the subject, as the matter is urgent.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I shall have pleasure in doing so.

page 7113

QUESTION

TARIFF

Importation of Pianos

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs a question without notice. Can he say whether a communication was addressed to Mr. Beale, the piano manufacturer, by the Customs authorities, supplying him with particulars as to the number and value of the pianos imported into the Commonwealth from 1902 to T907? Is the Minister aware that the Customs authorities, in furnishing the information, made serious errors? Has the fact that such errors have been made been communicated to Mr. Beale, and, if so, has the correction been communicated also to the importers? If not, can he say why?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I ask the honorable member to give notice of his questions to enable me to obtain the information for which he asks. If he does so, I shall be glad to look into the matter and let him have the information he desires later.

page 7113

QUESTION

EXCISE TARIFF (AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY) ACT

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– It is reported in the newspapers to-day that some days must still elapse before the fortnight’s l>5’]-2 notice”, given to the manufacturers of agricultural implements, to pay Excise or comply with certain conditions will expire. As we shall reach the Christmas adjournment in a few days, I wish to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether he will take an early opportunity to definitely state what the intentions of the Government are in this matter?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– Certainly, every information will be afforded to honorable members, probably on Tuesday next. There has been a little delay in connexion with some of the notices, owing’ to a blunder, on the part of one of the officials. That will not materially interfere with the steps the Government propose to take, and I hope that, on Tuesday next, at the latest, and possibly on Mon- day, honorable members will.be placed “in possession of full information on this subject.

page 7113

QUESTION

SPANISH IMMIGRANTS

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

– I wish to ask whether the attention of the Prime Minister has been directed to an article appearing in this morning’s Argus, headed “Strike of Spaniards”: For the information of honorable members I propose to read the paragraph, which is not a zen long one. It is as follows -

Brisbane, Thursday.- A Geraldton telegram states that all the Spaniards in the district went out on strike on Monday. Seven were summoned to-day, a test case from each of the seven farms. The police magistrate fined them each j£io and costs, in default four months’ imprisonment, the sentence to be suspended if the prisoners would go back and finish their agreement.

All instantly refused, and when the police went to remove them to the cells, the other Spaniards in court instantly rushed to their mates, crying, “ All together, all together.” They took possession of the Court-house, and a disgraceful scene followed.

Eventually the police put the prisoners in the clerk of petty sessions’ office, the others outside continuing yelling and gesticulating for a quarter of an hour. Finally the police locked up the prisoners and all- their mates, to the number of 28. The Spaniards stale that thev will not work while they are under the present agreements.

I ask the Prime Minister, as the Government are to a great extent responsible for bringing those men here, if he will cause inquiries to be made to ascertain whether they have been treated properly or otherwise, or if the agreements have not been carried out by the employers, or what real lv is the cause of the trouble at Geraldton, and inform the House as soon as possible of the result of those inquiries?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– I- had not observed the paragraph in the paper this morning. There can be no objection to inquiring into the statements made. The responsibility of this Government for the introduction of those men is, as the honorable member is aware, indirect. We gave permission that, provided suitable labour could not be obtained from the Mother Country, it might be obtained from Europe. Certain Spaniards some weeks ago occasioned trouble in the neighbourhood of Geraldton. I had inquiry made into that circumstance, and found that apparently not one of those who could be tested had been found to be familiar with country employment. They came from Spanish towns, unacquainted with any form of agriculture, and familiar only with some employment - I forget the particulars - of a light and casual character. They appeared to be quite unsuited for the work to which they had been put.

Mr Fisher:

– Was there any suspicion that they had been brought out under false pretences ?

Mr DEAKIN:

– No. When I was in North Queensland a short time ago, I endeavoured to ascertain in what way the foreign element generally, which consists chiefly of Spaniards, was behaving. At that time there had been no disturbance, but there was already a good deal of doubt, on the part of those who had seen the men, as to whether the bulk of them were of appropriate character to make good agricultural settlers.

page 7114

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE : EXHIBIT OF PIANO

Mr GLYNN:

– I desire to ask the Treasurer a question without notice. There is a piano, which is “ fetching,” at least in appearance, in one of the ‘ ante-rooms, and covering a good deal of floor space with its geographical area. I desire to ask the Treasurer, whose skill as a manipulator of the strings we know is exceptional, and who, with an enviable delicacy of touch, is capable, without notice, of improvising variations that would almost beggar the genius of a Lizst, whether he will, before the item of pianos is reached, either by himself taking his place at the keyboard or otherwise, give us an opportunity of testing the resonance of the instrument?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I wish I could play. I have no doubt that in that- case the honorable member could sing very nicely to my accompaniment. I know nothing as to who gave permission for the piano to be placed where it is. I presume that Mr. Speaker did so. Certainly I did not apply to him. I have had nothing to do with the matter.

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Seeing that the maker of one class of pianos has been granted the privilege of exhibiting one of his instruments within the precincts of this building, I desire to ask the Prime Minister ‘ whether he will extend similar privileges to those interested in other makes of instruments?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– Honorable members will recollect that I have no power to either admit or exclude the smallest piece of furniture from the Parliamentary Buildings. Every honorable member possesses the same right as I do. The whole and sole direct control of this part of the building is vested in Mr. Speaker and the Committee of which he is the head.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I should like to say that when the question of showing within this building a sheep’-shearing machine was brought up, I think by the honorable member for Lang, I was asked whether I would give similar permission in the case nf any other exhibit in the north lobby, and I said that I would. I took it that the House assented to the course I suggested, and when permission was sought later on for a piano to be placed in the lobby, I gave the desired consent, and hence the piano is there.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– May I ask the Treasurer whether he will endeavour to make arrangements to have the very best foreign-made piano obtainable placed against the Beale piano in the north lobby for purposes of comparison ?

Mr Johnson:

– There are several other makers.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Why not have a piano from each agent?

Mr BATCHELOR:

– I suggest that the best foreign piano obtainable be placed on exhibition for the purpose of comparison, and following up the suggestion made by the honorable member for Angas, that the Treasurer and the acting leader of the Opposition play a duet.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not know why the honorable member for Boothby has asked me this question. After my experience in connexion with the exhibition of a sheep-shearing machine, it is not likely that I would take any part in the introduction of any other exhibit. I have had nothing whatever to do with’ the exhibition of this piano in the north lobby. I refer the honorable member for Boothby to Mr. Speaker as to the suggestion to have another piano introduced.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you have given permission for the corridors to be used by the general public in connexion with the various wares that are now being exhibited ?

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have” given no permission except in cases where there have been specific applications. When specific application is made to me, I shall deal with it in a. way which I deem to be fitting.

Mr JOHNSON:

– I believe that applications have been already made by several importers representing European firms for leave to exhibit their pianos within the precincts of the House, and I presume that no objection will be offered to their doing so.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The objection which it seems necessary to raise in such cases is contained in the fact that the room will not hold an indefinite number of pianos. If any more pianos are introduced, I am afraid that honorable members will be incommoded’.

page 7115

QUESTION

EXCISE TARIFF (AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY) ACT

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Is the ‘Minister of Trade and Customs aware that it is reported that the Massey-Harris Company are employing skilled labourers at 6s. a day in putting together agricultural implements? Does not the Minister think that that is an evasion of the award of Mr. Justice Higgins ?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– I was not aware of what the honorable member states, although the honorable member for Wide” Bay brought the matter under my notice a few minutes ago. I intend to make every inquiry in order to find out exactly what is being done and what steps should be taken.

page 7115

QUESTION

ABORIGINES: WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Allegations of Cruelty

Mr MAHON:

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister, without notice, whether his attention has been drawn to a statement in the Age newspaper of to-day concerning the treatment of . aborigines in Western Australia ? As these reports generally filter through to Great Britain, and reflect very seriously upon the character of the people of Australia - and possibly this paragraph has already got there - will the honorable gentle- ‘ man take measures to counteract any false impression conveyed ? The Age in a leading article this morning says -

Only the other day Mr. E. J. Blake related a tale at Perth of what he had personally witnessed as a member of a recent exploring expedition in the Wiluna district. He declares that the explorers caught the blacks they encountered on their way, and with the most inhuman cruelty chained them by the necks and forced them to act as guides.

These serious accusations against the character of the exploring party are virtually contradicted in another part of the same paper, although it is apparently assumed in the leading article that Blake’s statement is absolutely true. In another column that statement is challenged by the members of the exploring party, as appears from the following -

In the Assembly, Mr. Troy called attention to statements made by Mr. E. J. Blake, cook of the Canning stock route exploring party, with regard to the treatment of natives, as published in the press. The Premier replied that Mr. Canning’s attention had been called to Mr. Blake’s statements, which were absolutely at variance with Mr. Canning’s own statements. Full particulars would be given to Parliament when Mr. Canning had had an opportunity to reply. Mr. Canning this evening gave the press a detailed denial of the allegation of illtreatment.

Can the Prime Minister see his way to send a cablegram to the representative of the Commonwealth in London for publication, to the effect that Blake’s statement has been challenged and denied absolutely by the members of the exploring party ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– I think the course suggested would be judicious, and shall certainly take it, although it may be desirable to wait until we see the denial in full. I had already noted both the paragraphs quoted by the honorable member, for the purpose of. giving’ a contradiction, should the statement made by the head of the expedition disprove the allegation, as I feel confident that it will. ‘ Quite recently, when in England, I was met on a number of occasions by statements of this kind, which it was very difficult to refute at the moment.

Mr Fisher:

Petriana.

Mr DEAKIN:

– Not that particular fable, but statements as to the cruelty with which the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia were being treated. One had to reply as best one could on ‘the spot. 1 quite recognise that action is necessary on behalf of Australia as a whole, not only because of the assumption in the Age leading article, which was, evidently, written without a knowledge of the telegram appearing in another column, but also because information of the kind is cabled Home, and, what is more, is at once assumed by readers there to apply indiscriminately to the whole continent, and to the treatment of a “vast number of aborigines. After all, so far as these deplorable abuses are even alleged to occur, they include only individual cases. Less prominence is sometimes given abroad to famines in India, and catastrophes elsewhere, which destroy thousands, than to isolated injuries to particular aborigines in Australia.

page 7116

QUESTION

NAVAL FORCES: RETIRING AGE

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether in view of the fact that it is the intention of the Government to extend our naval system, and that we require experienced men, he will consider the advisability of increasing the age of retirement of men in the Naval Forces to sixty years as is the case in the Military Forces ?

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– Under present conditions there is a good deal to justify the action suggested by the honorable member. I cannot say more at present, however; than that I will carefully consider the matter.

page 7116

QUESTION

NEW PROTECTION : APPRENTICES

Mr TUDOR:

– I desire to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether in the proposed new protection legislation he will ‘ provide that the number of apprentices shall be limited as has been done in the distillery trade?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– The details of the legislation now being prepared will have every consideration. The honorable member will see that at present I could not possibly give the information he asks j but I repeat that his suggestion will have all the consideration to which it is entitled.

page 7116

PAPER

Mr. MAUGER laid upon the table the following paper -

Census and Statistics Act - Commonwealth Statistics - Trade, Shipping, Oversea Migration, and Finance - Bulletin No; 9,” September, 1907

page 7116

QUESTION

CONTRACT FOR MILITARY STORES

Mr CROUCH:

asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

  1. To what firm was the contract for the supply to the Department, of waist belts, cartridge pockets, bandoliers, shoulder straps, &c, let early in 1907?
  2. Did this contract apply to the supplies for all the States?
  3. Have any of the articles submitted to the Department by the contractors been rejected in any State ?
  4. How many of such articles have been rejected, and in what States, and for what reasons ?
  5. Are different standards required from contractors in different States?
Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. Messrs. Holder and Frost, of Adelaide.
  2. Yes.
  3. Yes.
  4. Of the 1,600 sets ordered for Victoria a number of waist belts, bandoliers, pockets, cartridge 15 rounds, pockets, cartridge 10 rounds, waterbottle straps, mess tin straps, and water.bottle carriers were found to be defective, some on account of flaws and bad leather, and other* for minor defects.

In fairness to the contractors it may be added’ that when the matter was brought under their notice they explained that, in some unaccountable way, a number of defective articles which they had themselves condemned were included in the Victorian shipment, and the correct articles left out. They immediately replaced the defective articles where required, and rectified the defects in others. 5- No.

I notice that only Victoria is referred to in the answers supplied, and, therefore,. I infer that defective stores were not furnished in any other State. If they were,. I shall give the honorable member information in reference to the matter at a later stage.

page 7116

QUESTION

DEFECTIVE AMMUNITION

Mr BOWDEN:

asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether any steps had been taken to have the defective cadet ammunition recalled and replaced by a fresh supply, as promised on the 25th September last?
  2. Whether the defective supply is still in use and is being supplied to cadets and sold to> them at the price of 5s. per 100?
  3. Whether it is a fact, that, though the pro prietor of the Colonial Ammunition Company has undertaken to replace the ammunition complained of, so far he has not been called upon -to do so?
  4. Will the Minister have the ammunition im mediately withdrawn absolutely from use and so allay the dissatisfaction and discontent amongst the cadets?
Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. I propose to place all the papers relating to this question on the table of the Library, and the honorable member will then see how thoroughly the whole matter has been investigated. Since April last, when the specification was amended to a 45 grain charge instead of a 5½ grain charge, the ammunition has proved -entirely satisfactory.
  2. Not that I am aware of. Inquiries will be >made, and if such is found to be the case it -will be stopped immediately. 3 and 4. Major Sandford, the Inspector of

Ammunition, whose duty it is to report on such matters, has only just made his final report. Instructions have been given for the defective ammunition to be recovered and returned to -the manufacturer, who will replace it. When -the trouble was first reported, instructions were rgiven that no doubtful ammunition should be issued, and every endeavour has been made to recover that of the earlier make ; but as the distribution was somewhat extensive, great difficulty has been experienced in obtaining its return.

page 7117

QUESTION

TELEGRAPHIC DELAYS

Mr CHANTER:
for Mr. Thomas Brown

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

  1. Whether any representations have been >made by the Chamber of Commerce, of Sydney, as to the serious inconveniences caused to the commercial community of New South Wales by the frequentdelays in the despatch and receipt of telegrams, said to be due to “ intermption of lines”?
  2. What steps are being taken to remedy these defects, and when may the public expect to have a reasonably reliable and efficient service?
Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– In reply to the honorable member’s questions, I may state that no- communication has been received by me from the Chamber of Commerce, Sydney, on the subject, but inquiries are being made of the Deputy PostmasterGeneral there, and a reply will be furwished in due course.

page 7117

QUESTION

AUSTRALASIAN PRESS ASSOCIATION

Mr CHANTER:
for Mr. Thomas Brown

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Have representations been made to him, on behalf of the Australasian Press Association, as to the result of a Conference recently held in Sydney to the effect that it would be an advantage to the Commonwealth to arrange and provide for the visit of some 25 press delegates from Great Britain?
  2. Has this matter received consideration; and, if so, what action has been determined upon with respect to the proposal?
Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– The- answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

  1. Yes.
  2. A similar proposal was inquired into some 18 months since. The Associated Chambers of Commerce of the Empire propose to visit Australia in 1909, when 200 representative men from the Mother Country and the Sister Dominions will arrive, accompanied by a number of leading journalists, incidentally making a tour of the States. In this manner the . press of the greater part of the English-speaking world will have its attention directed to the Commonwealth in the most effective way.

page 7117

QUESTION

ALLEGED OVERWORK, SYDNEY POST OFFICE

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– On 29th November, the honorable member for Cook asked me the following questions -

  1. Why are not telegraphists appointed, considering the alleged inadequate and overworked staff of the G.P.O., Sydney, and the numerous complaints by the public appearing in the columns of the daily press in New South Wales?
  2. Is it a fact that officers of the General Division who qualified for positions of telegraphists over eighteen months ago are still kept at their present grade and salaries, notwithstanding the fact that they are, and have been, performing telegraphists’ work. If so, why are these officers not appointed, and their rightful increases allowed them ?

I have now been furnished with the following replies -

  1. Positions for telegraphists have been provided to the full extent of the provision made on the Estimates for 1907-8.
  2. Thirty-five officers passed the examination referred to, and of this number eighteen have been promoted as telegraphists or to the Professional Division. The remaining successful candidates will receive promotion as vacancies occur for telegraphists.

page 7117

QUESTION

TELEGRAPHISTS, SYDNEY

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– Upon 22nd November, the honorable member for Calare asked the following- questions -

  1. Is the Postmaster-General aware that telegraphists employed in the Sydney Head Office on the afternoon staff are frequently called upon to work extra long hours at night?
  2. Is it a fact that a large proportion of the extra work thus entailed upon the staff originates after their regular working hours? ,
  3. Is it a fact that officers commencing duties a’t 10.30 a.m. are frequently detained until 8 p.m. ?
  4. Have representations been made by representatives of the staff as to the disabilities thus entailed, and what steps, if any, is it proposed to take to redress these overtime grievances?

The Acting Deputy Postmaster-General, Sydney, has now supplied me with the following information -

  1. Telegraphists employed in the G.P.O., Sydney, on the afternoon staff- are frequently called upon to perform extra hours at night when business is much congested in consequence of interruptions or bad working of the circuits . through adverse weather conditions during the day. No case has, however, ever been brought under the notice of the Manager where any of the Telegraphists’ total hours of duty during any one fortnight have been in excess of eightyfour hours, which would entitle him to a claim for overtime.

As, with the exception of a few stations which are open till 10 p.m., offices throughout the country are closed by 8 p.m., when conditions are normal, the majority of the afternoon staff Telegraphists, who commence duty at 3 p.m., are released at 8.15 p.m., or very shortly afterwards. They are required to take it in turn to clear all business for the 10 o’clock stations.

  1. It is not a fact that a large proportion of the extra work performed by the staff originates after they have been on duty six hours. Telegraphists while on duty are called upon to assist in any emergency which may arise after their regular hours.
  2. It is not. a fact that officers commencing duty at 10.30 a.m. are frequently detained until 8 p.m. During the month ended 19th November they were kept on on eight different dates after 6 p.m., and of these on five dates till 8 p.m. or later, the latest hour being 8.30 p.m., on the 12th of that month.
  3. The only representations made to the Manager, Telegraph Branch, were by members of the intermediate staff, who on the 16th November, drew his attention to the extra demands that had been made on their services during the past month.

He had already given instructions to the Assistant Manager that arrangements must be made to prevent the intermediate staff being kept on so late. The latest hour subsequent to the 15th November that any member of this staff has been required to remain on is 5.40 p.m.

They may, under exceptional circumstances, be required on occasions to perform extra duty, the same as Telegraphists on other staffs are required to do. The Manager has, however, given instructions that they must not *at any time be kept later than 6.15 p.m. without his special sanction.

Overtime work resulting from conditions referred to in answer to question 1 cannot be avoided. Including all overtime, Head Office Telegraphists’ hours, taken throughout the year, average less than 6£. per working day, except those on the intermediate staff (5), who average less than seven.

Application has been made for six additional Telegraphists to be put on at once to cope with the increasing business.

page 7118

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration ,. resumed from 6th December,. vide page 7 no) :

Item 307 (Wicker, bamboo, cane or wood) agreed to.

Item 308. Brushmakers’ woodware and turnery, including brush handles, ad val., 30 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the words “including brush handles” be left out.

These handles will then automatically fall under item 309, under which they will be dutiable at 20 per cent. The reason underlying my proposal is that they are really tool handles, and it is thought only fair that they should be included in the next item, under which all tool handles will be dutiable^

Amendment agreed to.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know why a distinction is made between the duty proposed upon this item and that levied upon the succeeding item? Both items are really in the same category, and why one should be dutiable at 30 per cent, and the other at only 20 per cent. 1 cannot understand. I hope that the Treasurer will consent to a reduction of the rate proposed, because brushmakers’ woodware and turnery are a very simple form of manufacture.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Trea- surer · Hume · Protectionist

– The reason why a higher duty is levied upon this item than upon the succeeding one is that . all the articles enumerated under it are being made in the Commonwealth, whereas some of those covered by the next item are not being made in Australia to the same extent. Hence the distinction which has been drawn. In this matter, the Government have adopted the recommendations of the A section of the Tariff Commission.

Amendment -(by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December,’ 1907 (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,’* be added.

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

.- I am in receipt of a letter from a brushware company in Western Australia, in which the writer complains of this proposed increase of duty from 20 to 30 per cent. He says that the woodware specified in this item forms an important part of the raw material of his company, and that the bulk of the same is imported from the United Kingdom.

In many lines of brushware, such as scrubs, dandies, distempers, it, we have now great difficulty in meeting the English and foreign competition. It would suit our purpose if the rate against the United Kingdom was reduced . to 20 per cent.

Mr Salmon:

– At the instance of the Treasurer brush handles have been taken out of this item, so that they fall under the next item, and are dutiable at 20 per cent. .

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 309. Tool Handles, unattached, ad val. 20 peT cent.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) £2.41]. - I hope that the Treasurer will consent to give a preference to British tool handles.

Sir William Lyne:

– I cannot do that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Surely tool handles are a very proper subject for a preference.

Sir William Lyne:

– Under the old Tariff they were dutiable at 15 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I move-

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 15 per cent.,” be added.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– - I hope that the honorable member for Parramatta will not press the amendment. It is a unique circumstance that the two sections of the Tariff Commission have recommended the imposition of a duty of 20 per cent, on these articles.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

– I do not see why this amendment should be made. Yesterday we had a long discussion about the qualities of Australian woods. Surely there is in Australia wood suitable for the making of tool handles, and certainly there are persons who can do the work.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

.- This item deals with the tools of trade of workers in the country districts. It covers, for instance, fork handles.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Many of them are free.

Mr WILSON:

– They ought to be free. Take for instance axe handles.. We have not suitable timber for making them.

Mr Bamford:

– Dozens of them are being made at Cairns.

Mr WILSON:

– No doubt axe handles of a sort can be made at . Cairns, but timber- getters mostly use an American handle.’

Mr Bamford:

– At Cairns handles are being made equally as good as, and in some instances better than, American handles.

Mr WILSON:

– 1 think that the honorable member is wrong.

Mr Bamford:

– I have seen them.

Mr WILSON:

– Axe handles ave specially made out of a certain, description of American wood. We have no wood similar to that wood. This item covers innumerable handles of tools of trade. The old duty of 15 per cent was quite high enough, and the honorable member for Herbert has informed us that with that protection handles are made here. No doubt they are making some handles and making them profitably too with that protection. Therefore his argument is really in favour of restoring the old duty.

Mr Bamford:

– The honorable member wants the handles made free?

Mr WILSON:

– No; I shall be quite satisfied if we can reduce the duty to 15 per cent.

Mr Salmon:

– Why should we reduce the duty to less than that which the freetrade section of the Tariff Commission has recommended ?

Mr WILSON:

– As a general . rule, the honorable member does not believe that the free-trade section of the Tariff Commission was right in making a particular recommendation. I ask him to be consistent on this occasion* and say that it was wrong in recommending a duty of 20 per cent. He must know that throughout his electorate a large number of tool handles are used. Surely he is aware that the greater number of tool handles used in mining and agriculture are imported handles. I shall support the amendment, because I think that a duty of 15 per cent, is a perfectly fair one to impose.

Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle

.- I hope that the Committee .will not reduce the duty. If we can compete with the world in making anything, it is in making the handle for any tool of trade.”

Sir John Forrest:

– Not a handle for an axe, because we have not suitable wood.

Mr WATKINS:

– For three ,ears 1 I have used Colonial handles in the bush just as well as any other handle.

Sir John Forrest:

– The honorable member broke a handle every day, I expect ?

Mr WATKINS:

– I broke more American than Colonial handles.

Sir John Forrest:

– Of what wood were they made?

Mr WATKINS:

– We made them out of spotted gum and blue gum.

Mr Hedges:

– Those handles are no good.

Mr WATKINS:

– Spotted gum is the finest timber for making handles.

Sir John Forrest:

– To start with, it is too heavy.

Mr WATKINS:

– A miner, who has to lie on his side when he is at work,, wants the smoothest possible handle for his pick. Every handle for a miner’s pick is made out of spotted gum, and, generally, by an old miner, who earns a few shillings in that way. If ever there was an industry which could be said to be a poor man’s industry it is the industry of making pick handles.

Sir John Forrest:

– They cannot make axe handles.

Mr WATKINS:

– I get my axe handles made by the man who used to make my pick handles. I hope that the duty on tool handles will not be reduced.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid that the honorable member has only a very few tools in his’ mind.

Mr WATKINS:

– I think the honorable member will admit that the handle that is required in a miner’s pick needs to be as smooth as any handle that can be made.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is the simplest form of handle of all.

Mr WATKINS:

– It may be, but it has to be very smooth, or the hands of the miner will not stand. Honorable members can take any timber in the world and have handles made from it, but I will back a piece of spotted gum against any of them. It can resist a greater breaking strain than any timber that can be imported.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

– This is a duty which will fall exclusively Upon the working man.

Mr Salmon:

– Handles are made exclusively bv working men.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– What is more, tool handles are not made to shape in Australian wood as they are when imported, and, consequently, men who use them will “be able to do so much less work. Work in the bush is almost entirely done by the piece. If a bushman has an .axe handle of the right shape, ‘he will be able to do morework with less fatigue than if he has a. badly-shaped handle. I believe that the.only handle that can be made satisfactorily, in this country in competition with imported handles is the handle for the pick: of the miner, or something of that kindSuch a handle is almost straight, or tapersaway to the end. I believe that Australianwood is as good as imported timber for that particular purpose. But a handle for almost every other tool has a turn in it somewhere ; and it is putting in that turn, that involves labour. The output of Australian handles must necessarily be small.. It cannot be expected that we can com-, pete against a. country like the United! States, with ‘80,000,000 people, or against’ Great Britain with her enormous population. Therefore, this would be exclusively a tax upon the wage-earner. It would mean’ increasing the revenue from this sourcefrom 1^4,280 probably to ^5,000 more,, and that money would have to be paid by the wage-earners. I hope that the Treasurer will give some consideration to thequestion from that point of view.

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

– The honorable member for Robertson has; entered a plea for the working man who uses tool handles. But the bandies which are made in Australia are made by men who are working “ on their own,” and not: in factories. I have in my mind a number of men in my own electorate who havebrought up their families by making; handles for tools. They have been able-, to do this work owing to the protection, they had under the old Victorian Tariff. The wood they have used for making handles has been ironbark, which wears’down to a very smooth surface, and complies with the conditions correctly mentioned by the honorable member for Newcastle.

Sir John Forrest:

– We are speaking: about axe handles.

Mr SALMON:

– What are thev made.of? .

Sir John Forrest:

– Hickory.

Mr SALMON:

– I understand that they are made of ash.

Mr Watkins:

– Ninety per cent, of them are made of ash.

Mr SALMON:

– The Tariff Commission report says that they are made of imported ash.

Mr Henry Willis:

– Do the men in the honorable member’s electorate make bent wood handles?

Mr SALMON:

– They make splendid handles, which are preferred to the imported article. It is only because of the duty that they have been able to do it. They also make handles with curves in them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– All that I am asking for is 5 per cent, preference.

Mr SALMON:

– The honorable member is asking for more than both sections of the Tariff Commission recommended.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The Tariff Commission were willing to grant a preference.

Mr SALMON:

– The Chairman of the Tariff Commission is, I am sure, too good a protectionist to say that right through the Tariff he is prepared to grant 5 per cent, as a preference. Honorable members opposite are not treating fairly those of us who believe in preference when they come along with these demands for a reduction of duty on such an article.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Is it always to be preference up, and never preference down? That is absolutely sham preference.

Mr SALMON:

– I want to assure hon: orable members that this is an. industry that is not carried on. by big capitalists. It is a means of livelihood to a large number of men who are living in the bush.

Sir John Forrest:

– What wood do they use for axe handles?

Mr SALMON:

– They use principally imported wood for making axe handles ; but not for making pick handles.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What does the honorable member for Newcastle say to that ?

Mr SALMON:

– I was asked a question as to what wood is used in . my electorate, where spotted gum is not grown. I am pleading for men who are making these goods, and making them well.

Sir John Forrest:

– How many of them are there?

Mr SALMON:

– They are hardly worth considering, I suppose, in the right honorable member’s opinion. . His ideas are too large to consider the interests of such men as these, who have brought up their families by means of this industry and are good citizens.

Mr Fuller:

– Where do they sell their handles ?

Mr SALMON:

– They sell them locally. It is all very well for those who are interested in large tracts of forest country, which they have taken up for purposes of exploitation, to endeavour to get these special concessions. But 1 notice that they are not so anxious for reductions of duty when we are dealing with timber. I do plead with honorable members to recollect that this is not a large capitalistic industry, but one carried on by individuals who work hard for their living. Those who vote to take away from these men the only means of subsistence which “they have, are taking upon themselves a very grave responsibility.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

.- . We have been supplied with a lot of use- “ less knowledge about axe handles, and the honorable member for Newcastle has told us that pick handles for miners can be made out of spotted gum. They can be made out of deal, so far as that goes, and can be worn down very smooth. But when a man has to get his living by swinging an axe he must have a handle so cut as to make the blade fall with the greatest possible weight where it is wanted, and as true as can be. An axe handle is quite different from a pick handle. I have no desire to interfere with the Newcastle miners. If they choose to encourage their old men to make pick handles and scrape them smooth with a bit of glass paper, let them do it. But we have in Western Australia 4,000 or 5,000 men. engaged in the timber industry.

Mr Salmon:

– Who supplies them with axe handles?

Mr HEDGES:

– We purchase the best, that can be obtained in the world. They are made from hickory.

Mr Watkins:

– Supplied to the men on the truck system.

Mr HEDGES:

– I am connected with two companies who employ 500 axemen. We use from 25 to 30 cases of axes per month, with the necessary number of extra handles. If that experience is not worth more to the Committee than that of a doctor or a coal miner I am very much surprised. We do not object to old men in the bush making a few handles out of whatever wood they can obtain. They can make them out of broomsticks if they like. But the iCommittee should not interfere with a big industry such as we are running in Western Australia. We have imposed a duty of 15 per cent, on some tools of trade.

I do not object to a reasonable duty - say 15 per cent. - on these handles, which are also tools of trade. But those honorable members who ask for a higher duty than that are going too far. They must recollect that the men who use them pay for their own axes and handles.

Mr Storrer:

– What do the companies charge the men for their handles ?

Mr HEDGES:

– We supply them at cost price.

Mr Salmon:

– This ‘duty will not fall on the men who use the axes.

Mr HEDGES:

– I say that it will.

Mr Salmon:

– Does the honorable member supply his men with’ British axe * handles?

Mr HEDGES:

– How could I do so? Hickory is not produced in Great Britain.

Mr Salmon:

– Then why propose a preference ?

Mr HEDGES:

– I am- asking that the duty be reduced. Axemen and others have to purchase from the companies by which they are employed the handles that they require. If they were given the full run of the store the employer - would not be able to get enough for them. It is necessary that they should purchase them from their employers in order that some control may be kept over their use. I have no objection to the honorable member for Newcastle having pick handles made out of deal.

Mr Watkins:

– I am not specially concerned.

Mr HEDGES:

– I would ask the Committee to place a reasonably low duty on axe handles, and to allow the men who have to use them to select those which they find most suitable.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– In order that honorable members may realize how. great a concession this will be to Great Britain, I would point out that last year our imports from the United Kingdom were valued at£948, whilst those coming from the United States were of the value of£27,505.

Mr R EDWARDS:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND · PROT; FT from 1913; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910

– I was surprised to hear the statement made a few moments ago that tool handles could not be made in Australia, since I knpw that they can be produced in all parts of the Commonwealth. I have a small farm near Brisbane where, when Parliament is not in session, I spend a good deal of time and make from timber on the ground all -the tool handles that. I need. I find them nearly as good as any that are imported from America. I think that we ought to encourage an industrv of this kind, and shall therefore vote for a duty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The duty under the general Tariff has already been dealt with, and my amendment relates only to> a British preference.

Mr EDWARDS:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– I regret very much that, although the Prime Minister and theTreasurer, when in London, talked largely/ of preferential trade, they have not kept faith with Great Britain. The princinle of preference so far as this Parliament is concerned has been nothing but a sham. We ought to be prepared to make some little sacrifice to the Motherland. This Parliament has not dealt fairly with Great Britain, and I repeat that the promises made by the Prime Minister and the Treasurer when in the Old Country have not ‘ been fulfilled.

Mr Deakin:

– The honorable member is utterly wrong. I have done a good deal more than I undertook to do.

Mr EDWARDS:

– I know that the * Prime Minister has done a great deal, but I have seen him in this House voting again and again against preferential duties in favour of Great Britain.

Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert

.- For the information of the Committee I should like to say that when I was in the north last vear, I visited at Cairns a timber mill where I saw tool handles being freely produced. A shaping machine is used, and the timber is rapidly converted into pick or axe handles. First-class timber is available in the district, and a bushman whom I met there told me that he was taking back with him a dozen locallyproduced axe handles, which had cost from 1s. 6d. to1s. 9d. per dozen less than the imported article, and which, he said, were not only, cheaper, but better, than the imported handles.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There has been so much humbug in connexion with this mat-, ter, that I ask leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

– I move -

That the words “ and on and. after 7th December, 1907, ad val’. (General Tariff), 15 per cent.,” be added.

The honorable member for Herbert has just shown that under the old Tariff certain tool handles could be made hereand supplied at a cheaper rate than the imported handles,

Mr Bamford:

– That is under the present duty.

Mr WILSON:

– The duty under the old Tariff was 15 per cent. Whilst we may be able to produce some excellent .tool handles, I would point out that there is a special class of axe handle, as well as adze, pick, and scythe handles, which should come in at a lower rate. The statement made by the honorable member for Fremantle, that it is the custom for bush-workers to purchase their handles from their employers, is correct, and as in some cases an imported handle is absolutely necessary this duty will fall directly upon the men who use them. I, therefore, hope that, in the interests of these men, the Committee will agree to my amendment.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– This is a paragraph that might very well be subdivided. It seems to me that we ought not to allow ordinary straight tool handles to come iri at a low duty, but the position is different with regard to bent handles, which cannot be made here.

Mr Storrer:

– They can be made here.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– We may be making them on a very small scale.

Sir John Quick:

– Cannot the honorable member put in a word for Queensland timbers ?

Mr SINCLAIR:

– The Queensland timbers are as good as any to be found in Australia, but I do not say that we are making there all classes of tent handles. I therefore propose at the right time to “move that a new paragraph be inserted under which axe, adze, and scythe. handles shall be dutiable at 15 per cent.

Mr EDWARDS:
Oxley

– When I was speaking a few moments ago I was informed that we had already dealt with the duty of 20 per cent, under the general Tariff, and I was led to lecture two members of the Government who, I said, had failed to carry out the promises made by them when in Great Britain. I wish to know, Mr. Chairman, whether I was misinformed.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The .honorable member’s informant made a mistake. The honorable member for Parramatta at the time had simply moved to insert an amendment providing that imports from the United Kingdom should be dutiable at 15 per cent.

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

– In my constituency there are 5,000 timbergetters, and every one of them uses an imported hickory axe handle for the reason that it is found to be the most suitable that can be obtained. If Queensland can supply axe handles that are equally good, why does she not give us some evidence of it? I hope that the Government will revert to the duty which prevailed under the old Tariff. This item relates to tools of trade and will be a tax upon the working man.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- The Treasurer might well consent to insert a new paragraph relating to bent handles. I feel disposed to support the Government proposal in regard to straight handles, which can be satisfactorily manufactured in Australia from locally-grown timbers ; ‘ but as the evidence submitted to us this afternoon is that scythe, adze, and axe handles of the most suitable kind are not. at present being made here, it would be well to subject them to a lower duty.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- The special pleading to which” I have listened in connexion with this paragraph has occasioned me some surprise. I was brought up in the bush and have often seen youths make from locally-grown timbers axe handles equal to those imported from America. The honorable member for Herbert has spoken of the machinery in Queensland timber mills for making tool handles, and we all know that we have in Australia timber suitable for such a purpose. We have skilled men capable of turning out the very best handles, and they should receive some encouragement. We have been told that so far as these articles are concerned Australia cannot compete with America,, but we should not forget that the United States owes her position to-day to the way in which she has built up her industries. If we wish to succeed we must encourage every industry, and perhans the day will come when we shall be able to export tool handles of all descriptions.

Question - That the words “.and on and after 7 th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent..” be added (Mr. Wilson’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Aves … …. … 24

Noes … … … 34

Majority … … 10

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) put -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 15 per cent.,” be added- put.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 29

NOES: 29

AYES

NOES

The CHAIRMAN:

– The numbers being equal, I give my casting vote with the Ayes.

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- I move -

That the following new item be inserted - 309A. “ Adze, axe, scythe, and bent wood handles, on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent.”

I do not make this motion with the object of singling out any particular industry or to specially benefit the users of these handles, but because they are not made here. The amendment, if agreed to, will overcome a great deal of the difficulty experienced here in trying to afford as much protection’ as we possibly can to our artisans, while making such tools of trade as cannot be made here dutiable at as low a rate as possible.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

.- I think I rose before the honorable member for Moreton,. and I intended to move a similar amendment, but I should have included all handles used by mechanics. I would ask the honorable member if he can see his way to include mechanics’ tool handles in his amendment.

Mr Sinclair:

– I am afraid that that would be too big an order.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I hope the amendment will not be agreed to. Honorable members might just as well strike out’ the whole item.

Proposed new item agreed to.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Minister agree to a preferential rate in the new paragraph, to bring it into line with similar items? I move -

That the words “ (United Kingdom), 10 per cent,” be’ added to the new item just inserted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– If the Committee intend to go on as they have begun, the sooner we stop the better, because the rate proposed by the Government is the old duty, and is recommended by the Tariff Commission.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If the Treasurer is going to debate the amendment, I will withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Item 310 (Doors of wood) agreed to.

Item 311. Photograph Frames and Stands for Pictures, Picture Frames (on pictures or otherwise), ad val., 35 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Why this extraordinary and unjustifiable increase from 20 to 35 per cent. ? I wish that the Chairman of the Tariff Commission, whose example the Minister is evidently following in connexion with this item, would explain why it is necessary to propose a 75 per cent, increase of duty. I could understand some of these huge duties, from a protectionist point of view, being placed upon articles which require rare and special skill, but this is an article whose manufacture calls for only the most rudimentary skill.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- A mass of evidence was given, with reference to the picture frame making industry and moulding industry. The honorable member for Parramatta will find it summarized on page 479 of the report of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission. The manufacturers complained that they were being inundated with cheap picture frames from America, lightly constructed and attractive in appearance,, and that they had to face fierce and intense competition. They also pointed out that in Australia they had to pay duty on the moulding, which was their raw material. In this matter two industries have to be considered - the making of mouldings and the making of picture frames. Of course the picture frame maker would like his mouldings free, but on the other hand a number of manufacturers arte engaged in making splendid mouldings of Australian timber. Samples cf them were exhibited in this building yesterday. Some made from Queensland timbers would defy the world for brilliancy of finish and excellence of workmanship.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We have given an extra protection to the makers of mouldings.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The Committee last night unanimously increased the duty on mouldings from 20 to’ 30 per cent. It was felt that we ought to promote the moulding industry, which is the basis and foundation of the picture frame making industry. Having increased the duty on the raw material, we should raise rather than reduce the duty on picture frames, as the interests of the Australian manufacturers should be considered. In fact, 1 understand that the honorable member fo: Kooyong has received this morning a letter, in which the picture frame makers complain of the altered incidence of the duties, and ask for the addition of an alternative duty of 4d. per foot. I can assure the honorable member for Parramatta that the duty on this item ought to be increased, rather than reduced.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

.- I received to-day the letter which I hold inmy hand, from a well-known firm of picture frame makers. They ask, in consequence of the changes made last night in the timber duties, that there should be added to this item the words “or 4d. per foot, whichever is the higher rate.”

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We do not want those double-barrelled duties.

Mr KNOX:

– I do not believe in them myself ; but practically the whole of the trade makes this request.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– They have got their timber reduced, and ‘ an, extra dutv on imported mouldings. They should be satisfied.

Mr KNOX:

– Those who write to me are responsible people, who speak, not only on behalf of themselves as manufacturers, but for the whole of the trade. Thev point . out that- there is a big industry in Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane, and that, in consequence of the cheap picture frames which are introduced from various parts of Germany, it would be hopeless for them to expect to make any profit out of the business. I have no personal knowledge as to whether their representations are correct, but they are a most reputable firm, and their statements may safely be taken as fair and reasonable. They say that, owing to the importation of the 3- ply veneer to Australia, the importation of manufactured frames had been almost knocked out under the old Tariff, with the exception of a few of very inferior quality, but if the duties were to remain as they now stand, all those who are now making picture frames in Australia must close up. There must be thirty firms manufacturing these frames in Australia at present, and it would be a most serious matter to the whole industry to reduce the proposed duty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I wish I had not spoken. It seems to me that I am in danger of causing the proposed duty’ to be doubled. Perhaps I had better say no more about it, except to move -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be added.

Amendment negatived,

Item agreed to.

Item 312. Lasts and Trees, wooden, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- I see no justification, for this high duty on lasts. How does the Minister arrive at the conclusion that it is necessary ? The protectionist section of the Tariff Commission recommended onlv 25 per cent. In order to obtain an explanation from the Minister, I move -

That after the words “ 35 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December’, 1907 (General Tariff), free,” be inserted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I hope the honorable member will not press the amendment. The duty proposed, as against the United Kingdom, is recommended bv the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, while the free-tra’de section recommend 20 per cent., which is nearly as high. I took the recommendation of the former for the United Kingdom column, and proposed a dutvof3 5 per cent, in the General Tariff column, in order to give -a preference of 10 per cent. When both sections of . the Tariff ‘ Commission so nearly agree, there must be some verv stronar reason in the evidence why a substantial duty should be imposed.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

– I desireto remind honorable members of a fact which has very often been explained, namely, that the recommendations of the free-trade section of the Tariff Commission were intended to be taken only in conjunction with a general Tariff scheme, and that they hold good only so long as the whole scheme is accepted. When that scheme is departed from; these recommendations simply go by the board ; and the Treasurer appears to have quite overlooked this governing factor. I shall support the proposal to make the item free.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- I hope that this duty will not be rejected. Honorable members may be surprised to learn the immensity of this trade in lasts. One witness said that he was already making 250 a day, and yet the imports were much in excess of the local production. The Tariff Commission was also informed that it is very desirable to have lasts manufactured here, in order to meet the constantly changing requirements of the bootmaking trade.

Mr COON:
Batman

.- Under the old Tariff the raw material of these lasts was admitted free, whereas now a duty of 10 per cent, is proposed. The last which I hold in my hand is made in a factory where forty hands are employed, and where, if the duty on the finished article be imposed, the number of employes will be increased to 120.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Of what wood is the last produced made?

Mr COON:

– I am not so sure; but lasts of the kind are made throughout Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Under what item is the wood of that last made dutiable?

Sir John Quick:

– The wood is n.e.i.

Mr COON:

– The average wage in this trade is £2 per week, counting men and boys ; and I trust that the duty will be imposed.

Amendment negatived.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Since this item proposes to give preference to the United Kingdom I think I shall be in order in calling the attention of the Minister of Trade and Customs to an announcement which appears in the newspapers of this morning. It would appear that the Department or the Minister - I do not know which - is now legislating by regulation in a different wav from that intended by Parliament; and the seriousness of the position leads me to call attention to the matter at the earliest possible moment. The will of Parliament ought to be carried out by the

Minister and the Department ; and I call attention to the following announcement in this morning’s Melbourne Age.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I ask the honorable member not to go into this matter fully, or he will open up a general discussion on the question of preference.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I have” no desire to cause a general debate on the question, but merely to inquire whether regulations have been made as stated by the newspaper. The announcement is as follows -

The “A” certificate makes the manufacturer or supplier of goods in Great Britain certify that all the goods set out in a given invoice are ” bond fide the produce or manufacture of the United Kingdom, and that a substantial portion of the .labour of that country has entered into the production of every manufactured article included in the said invoice to the extent in each article of not less than one-fourth of the value of every such article in its present condition ready for export to the Commonwealth of Australia.”

I f I were debating the matter, I should point to the enormous difficulty which must bs created by such a regulation. We here decided that certain articles from Great Britain should receive preference, whatever proportion of labour might be involved; but the Department or the Minister now requires that the labour must be equal to 25 per cent. Our decision had no reference to the labour employed, but merely required that the article should be produced or manufactured in Great Britain.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– Many of the goods sent from Great Britain to Australia are manufactured in other countries.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Let me point out that although sugar does not grow in the United Kingdom, a preference is given in the case of British contectionery. Is that preference to be withheld in every instance in which 25 per cent, of British labour has not been employed? If this regulation be enforced, there will be not only enormous difficulty caused to the exporter and to the Department, but also an absolute departure from the decision at which we arrived, knowing that in the case of many articles 25 .per cent, of British or any labour was not employed. In fact, the labour in some articles might not be 5 per cent, of their value.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister of Trade and Customs · EdenMonaro · Protectionist

– I shall be very glad <to . give consideration to the repre sentations of the honorable member for North Sydney. In dealing with this matter, our aim has been to attain as far as possible uniformity throughout the Empire. This preferential idea is spreading, and if there be “uniformity it will make the administration much smoother. The regulations, as a matter of fact, are identical with the preferential regulations in other parts of the Empire ; and we must be very careful to give preference to goods that are really British, and not to goods which just flit through Great Britain on their way to Australia. If preference- be given to goods of the latter class, we shall place Great Britain at a disadvantage, and, in. fact, defeat the very object we have in view. I am pleased that the honorable member has raised the question, and I shall look further into it.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– All that is required is to see that goods are the legitimate manufacture of Great Britain without any reference to the percentage of labour.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– Quite so; but there must be some clear lines laid down - some definition of the goods entitled to preference.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Surely that is for honorable members to determine?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– Certainly ; and, as I say, I shall be glad to give the representations of the honorable member for North Sydney every consideration. This question must be discussed when the Tariff Bill is introduced. It is the desire of every one of us to place preference on a fair and equitable basis; and in what we have done we have, to a great extent, been guided by the experience in other parts of the Empire.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I confess that the point raised bv the honorable member for North Sydney had escaped my observation.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I allowed the honorable member for North Sydney to call attention’ to this matter, and the” Minister to reply. It is true that that was slightly irregular; but I regarded the question as important enough to justify the latitude given. I must ask honorable members, however, not to debate further the general question of preference.

Item agreed to.

Item 313. Buggy Shafts, bent, but not dressed, per pair, 2s. 6d.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- This item is the first of a group relating to parts used in the manufacture of buggies. I should like to know the reason for substituting specific duties for ad valorem rates in respect of these items.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– All these specific duties are merely devices for concealing inordinately high rates.

Mr WILKS:

– I am inclined to agree with the honorable member. If we wish to levy high imposts, do not let us disguise them by substituting specific duties for ad valorem rates. The Treasurer asks that a fixed duty shall be imposed upon buggy shafts, bent, but not dressed, notwithstanding that under the old Tariff they were admitted free. I would further point but that these shafts are a portion of the raw material of the coach-, builder. They are made mainly from hickory and American ash.

Mr Chanter:

– The question is not worth arguing.

Mr WILKS:

– The coachbuilders think that it is. The fixed duty now proposed would work most inequitably, in that it would fall equally upon the lowest and the highest grade of buggy shafts. In other words, the same charge would be levied upon the cheapest and the most expensive shafts. The duty proposed would also be a tax upon all those in the country districts who use buggies. I suggest that buggy shafts in the rough should be admitted free, and that shafts bent and dressed should be dutiable at is. 6d. per pair, or at an ad valorem rate of 20 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– Fixed duties have been agreed to in respect of a good many other items.

Mr WILKS:

– My objection is based upon the enormous increase that is proposed.

Mr Chanter:

– Twenty per cent, would work out at about 2s. per pair.

Mr WILKS:

– In any case I would prefer an ad valorem rate. I move -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, free,” be added.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– This item is important, in that it governs a group of items relating to a particular industry. I should like to, know whether I shall be in order in referring generally to that group?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member may make incidental reference to other items, but he will not be in order ii* debating them.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– In discussing this item we must bear in mind the extent to which our decision will affect theindustry which is particularly concerned.

Mr Wilks:

– The small coachbuilders will be chiefly affected.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The duty proposed will fall heaviest upon the small, coachbuilders who are carrying on operations in country districts. We must recollect that they have to place their manufactures upon the market at a priceapproximating that at which the largemanufacturers are able to sell. There is scarcely a country town in New South Wales in which there is not to be found a blacksmith who is also a coachbuilder and buggymaker. He usually devotes the”slack” period of the year to the manufacture of sulkies and buggies, which vehicles are commonly used in rural areas. Heis unable to procure his raw material locally. As a matter of fact the greater portion of it - especially for the lighter class of vehicles - must be imported. Thegeneral consensus of opinion among buggy manufacturers is that hickory and otherwoods will continue to be imported irrespective of the duty which may be imposed” upon them. A high duty will only operatein the direction of limiting the output of vehicles made of these materials. The contention of the buggy manufacturers is that the proposals of the Government in respect of the group of items to which I have referred will operate . distinctly to their detriment. I should like the Committee tounderstand that this industry is a very considerable one, that it is not concentrated inthe big cities, but that it is distributed’ throughout our small centres. The proposals of the Government, if agreed to, will have the effect of concentrating theindustry in the large manufacturing shops of the cities. Is that a wise result tobring about? If the Committee is prepared to look beyond the interests of the timber-getters some modification of the proposal immediately under consideration mustbe adopted.

Sir William Lyne:

– Does the honorable member know that this proposal is: equivalent to an ad valorem rate of only 10 per cent. ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The Coachbuilders’ and Wheelwrights’ Association’ have considered this matter, and have- placed their position before the members of this Committee. They declare that under the old Tariff they were enabled to’ build up their industry to such ah extent that their annual output was valued at, approximately, ,£2,000,000. As against that large sum, our total importations were valued at only ,£10,000. The members of the Coachbuilders’ and Wheelwrights’ Association hold that they have so completely got the control of the industry, that they do not fear importations.

Mr Watson:

– They only assemble the . imported parts.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– They say that they are prepared to face competition, and, in order to meet the position raised by the honorable ‘member, they are willing to accept the duty on the made vehicle or the completed parts. They object to the duty on the parts which they use in their industry, and which must be imported.

Mr Watson:

– In Queensland and New South Wales, there is an abundant supply of spotted gum suitable for the production of shafts.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Do I understand the honorable member to imply that spotted gum is suitable for all this work?

Mr Watson:

– No; but it is for shafts.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have .no doubt that Australian timber will be used where it can be clone profitably. But the men who are engaged in the trade assert that for the lighter vehicle and the lighter work in vehicles, they are compelled to make these importations or to cease the “manufacture of vehicles. They say that for the heavier work in their trade they can secure Australian timber, and that they use it wherever it can be done withadvantage. But they contend that the smaller parts for the lighter conveyances, such as buggies and sulkies, and the parts of those conveyances which require durability and strength must be . imported. The association I mentioned state in their circular that the imports of softwoods amount to about 115,000,000 feet pew annum, and that out of the large quantity required only 4,500,000 feet can be obtained from Queensland. That indicates to what a small extent, even in those particular lines which are not the main lines for which an exemption is required, the Commonwealth is able to meet the great demand for these kinds of wood. The association also state that within the -last two years the prices of such woods in the Commonwealth have advanced fully 50 per cent., and that the manufacturers have to pay 50 per cent, more to-day than they did a few years ago. That is only in accord with the’ general rise in the prices of all the timbers that are used. I am not an expert in this matter, and, therefore, I have to rely for my information upon those who are engaged in the trade. Perhaps I may be permitted to read a few extracts from a letter I have received from a manufacturer in a country town with whom I am acquainted. I know that his opinion is worthy of every consideration, and that his statements can be relied upon. He is managing a company that has gradually grown from a small beginning to fairly large dimensions. He writes -

We have been negotiating to put machinery into our works, but in view of the duties being imposed, we have abandoned the idea.

He cancelled temporarily the work which was being taken in hand to instal- the new machinery. He continues -

We have been in business for eighteen years, and we have made a success of it. At the present time we employ about twenty-five hands, and I must say that had we to contend in the earlier stages with these excessive duties we would never have built our business up to what it is to-day. We have mechanics who have Been in our employ for years, and if these duties are imposed it will mean, in place of increasing our plant, we must reduce the number of hands employed by us, and our’ business will be one more of repairing than of manufacturing, for when the prices are increased the demand is always lessened. It would suit us to have the additional duties taken off, which i consider is a fair thing, knowing that there is a specific duty on vehicles, &c. Spring carts, drays, and waggon wheels are all made from Colonial timber, and that shows clearly that if hickory was procurable here we would not mind the imposition of the additional duties.

Mr Storrer:

– Does he want the duty taken off the finished article, as well as the parts ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– No; he wants a dutv on the finished article.

Mr Tudor:

– He wants the duty taken off the parts which, he uses.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– He is a good protectionist, like my honorable friends who interject. It is only the very necessity of the position that compels him to ask for the reduction of the duties on the American timbers which must be used. He says that the position has reached this acute stage : that those who give orders to America for such timbers have to wait for a period extending to eighteen months until they can be executed. So that there are difficulties even in getting the timbers from America, and that in itself would be sufficient to induce the manufacturers to use colonial timbers wherever it was possible to do so. If honorable members will refer to the Tariff of Canada, they will see that an exception is made in favour of hickory and the other timbers which are required for the manufacture of coaches and buggies, and which are being imported to Australia. The same thing obtains in New Zealand ; in fact, in every protectionist country in which those special timbers are not grown. In such countries these timbers are regarded as the raw materials of the coachbuilders and wheelwrights, and because they cannot be locally produced they are placed on the free list. We are asked by the Coachbuilders’ and Wheelwrights’ Association to follow the examples of those countries. They ask that the specific duties generally be eliminated, and replaced with ad valorem duties. They hold that a specific duty falls as heavily on the lighter and less expensive vehicle as on the heavier and more expensive vehicle. . The less expensive vehicles are used by the poorer classes, and if these duties are retained the burden of this taxation will fall upon them in a measure out of proportion to their more wealthy countrymen. As regards their raw material, this association have expressed their readiness to accept the old duties. They recommend that the more complete the manufactured article is the higher ad valorem duty it should bear, until the completed article is reached, when, of course, they are prepared to accept any duty which the Committee may impose, so far as lis maximum is concerned. They ask that in the interests of their industry their representations may receive the favorable consideration of the Committee. Whether they -be free-traders or protectionists, they are unanimously of the opinion that this schedule, if it is passed, will do a very grave injury to their industry ; and that a humter of the articles which are heavily taxed in the interest of Australian timbers must be imported because they cannot be produced here. I am prepared to support the amendment of the honorable member for Dalley, because under the old Tariff this industry was able to so completely capture the consumption in the Common- wealth that less than£10,000 covered the importations.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

.- There , is evidently some mistake with regard to this item, because the Treasurer has just stated that the duty is equal to only 10 per cent. He must have taken the price to refer to a dozen instead of a gross.

Sir William Lyne:

– No; I said that that had been reported to me.

Mr HEDGES:

– I think that the honorable gentleman will acknowledge that there is something wrong about the item. I find that the duty is equal to over 100 per cent. From the most reliable people in Melbourne, Messrs. Ewing and Company, I have just learned by telephone that they can easily . land hickory shafts at 3s. per pair, and hickory poles at 5s. each. I ask the Minister toreconsider the item, or to procure further information.

Sir William Lyne:

– I am waiting for some information which I expect to receive in a few minutes.

Mr HEDGES:

– It appears to me that all the items from 313 to 320 are affected. If the Minister’s information . is wrong in one case, it is wrong in all the others. I would suggest that the words, “including poles, swingle-bars and shaft bars made of hickory in the rough - free,” be added to the item. If the Minister will not consent to that, it appears to me that we shall have to take the whole of these items separately.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– There seems to have been a mistake in this instance. The calculation has been made per ‘ dozen instead ofper gross. The officers now tell me that the percentage is much higher than was at first stated. I think that it would be better to have an ad valorem duty.

Mr Tudor:

– The free-trade section of the Tariff Commission recommended 20 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am not going to take as low a duty as 20 per cent. Perhaps duties of 25 per cent, and 35 per cent, would meet the case.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I am glad that the Treasurer has dropped the idea of having a fixed duty in preference to an ad valorem. I should like to meet him, provided he does not propose too high a duty. I ask leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 314. Buggy shafts, bent and dressed, per pair, 3s. 6d.

Item 315. Shafts, n.e.i., in the rough, per pair, 3s.

Item 316. Shafts, n.e.i., dressed, per pair, 4s.

Item 317. Bent poles, rough, each, 2s. 6d.

Item 318. Bent poles, dressed, each, 3s. 6d.

Item 319. Whiffle tree bars, per dozen, 3s.

Item 320. Shaft bars, per dozen, 4s. 6d.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added to items 314 to 320.

Item 321. Casks, barrels, and vats, n.e.i., full or empty, ad val., 35 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the words “and on arid after 7th December, 1907 - Item 321. Casks, barrels, and vats, n.e.i. (intended to contain liquids), empty or containing goods not subject to ad val. duty, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be added.

The reasons for this amendment are that experience of the new item has shown that in practically every instance in which casks containing dry goods or goods other than fluids are imported, the casks are to all intents ‘and purposes of no value when emptied of their imported contents. Such casks as those containing pickled cabbage, olives, sheep dip, &c, have been brought under the notice of the Department as being casks which are valueless after being emptied of their imported contents. Hitherto, the practice of the Department has been to deal with each case on its merits, and allow the casks to be entered as of no value for duty in those cases in which they were of no value as casks when emptied. Whilst a strict reading of the present wording of this item would require that the value of the casks containing goods subject to ad valorem duty should be included in the value of those goods for duty, and. in addition, that the special duty placed on casks under this item should be charged, the practice of the Department is to charge only the. special duty under this item, and to exclude the value of the casks from the value of their ad valorem contents for dutv. The proposed amendment: will give legislative effect to this practice, and will afford relief both to the Department and tG the public without injuring the local coopering trade. The substance of the explanation which I have given is that when casks are imported containing such goods as printers’ ink or olives they are of no further use. Therefore, it is not considered fair to charge duty on them. But when wine casks or whisky casks, which can be used again, are brought in, duty is charged on them. It is most unfair to charge, duty on casks which simply have to be broken up for firewood.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The Minister under this item is proposing to charge a special duty on packages which ‘ are necessary to the safe conveyance of goods ‘to their place of destination, although, we have already decided that when iron tanks are used for this purpose - and they are saleable at prices nearer their cost than are any other packagesthey shall be admitted duty free.

Mr Mauger:

– Casks are in a different category from tanks’

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I do not think so. The casks in which goods are brought here cannot be made in the country, and if a duty of 35 per cent, is charged on them, it will in many cases greatly increase the gross duty on their contents, which may be dutiable nominally at much lower rates. Sometimes, casks have to be used for the importation of comparatively cheap goods, or of goods upon which the duty is very small. Although the proposal has been put forward with a view to assisting the coopering industry, it may really have the effect of taking some work from the coopers. Most of the tallow casks and many other casks used in Australia are made from local timbers, but there are casks for which only imported timbers can be used, and if they are not remade from imported casks the timber for them will have to be imported in staves, or in the rough, ready to be cut up into staves. By keeping out the casks we shall take from the coopers a good deal of the business in re-making which now goes on. No one would import casks if he could get here casks made of suitable material ; but for some purposes special timber is requisite. It may be necessary to use an absolutely tasteless timber, or a non-porous timber, or a timber possessing some other special quality which can be obtained only in imported wood.

Sir William Lyne:

– Mountain ash, blackbutt and Tasmanian blackwood make better wine casks than any that are imported.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Perhaps so; but such casks will never be exported to bring back wine, spirits, or other contents.

Sir William Lyne:

– May not some of the casks which are imported be filled with wine and exported?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The casks which are imported filled with liquid or goods are, after being emptied, sold for less than their cost, and some of them may be exported; but I maintain that it is not a proper thing, after it has been determined that a certain commodity shall bear a certain duty, to increase that duty by imposing a heavy rate on the package in which it is brought out.

Sir William Lyne:

– What does the honorable member suggest?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I would strike out the words “or full.”

Sir William Lyne:

– And allow casks to come in f ree ?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Yes, full ones ; just as tanks are allowed to come in free.

Sir John Quick:

– Tanks are allowed to come in free because the plea was made that they are necessary to the existence of the poor farmer.

Mr Tudor:

– Besides, we do not make iron tanks here, while we do make casks.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We do not and cannot make the casks which are imported full’ of liquid or other goods; because they must be provided at the place of origin. It would never pay to send empty casks Home to be filled.

Mr Tudor:

– If no duty is imposed, casks may be imported filled with (roods much less valuable than they are.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– That could be prevented by inserting the words ‘ casks full, in which goods are ordinarily imported, free.” There is a similar provision in the Tariff regarding outside packages. I do not desire that the Tariff shall be evaded, but we ought not to place on outside packages a duty which materially adds to the gross duty payable on the contents.

Sir John Quick:

– cask is not an outside package.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– When it contains liquid it certainly is.

Sir John Quick:

– An “outside package” implies an inner package.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I think it merely implies contents. Would the honorable member say that where goods are imported in small packages within an outside package the outside package should be admitted free, but that when they are packed in it in bulk it should not be regarded as an outside package? I do not think that that would be a fair rule to make. In my opinion the present practice should continue. , The importers are accustomed to it, and the proposed change will create considerable confusion, without giving effective protection to coopers. I wish to amend the original item by moving -

That the words “ full or” be left out.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- The importation of casks was brought before the Tariff Commission by a witness who represented the Coopers’ Association. He strongly objected to the practice of allowing full casks to be imported free of duty, because, when emptied, they have a marketable value.

Mr Mahon:

– As a rule, a very small one.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The importers sometimes dispose of them at good prices, and occasionally dump them on the market at very low prices.. Sometimes these casks are well and strongly built, and are very valuable ; but they are sacrificed or sold at a very low price indeed, and thus come into competition, with the locallymade casks and barrels. . The coopers say that if a duty were placed upon these casks, the importers would be induced to add the duty to the price they demanded for these discarded casks, and that that would lessen the extent of their competition with the locally-made article by bringing up their- price more nearly to that demanded for locally-made casks.

Mr McWilliams:

– As a rule, thev are sold for whatever thev will bring.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Very often they are almost given away, and it is on that account the local coopers complain that thev come into competition with the casks locallv made.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The imposition of a duty would, not prevent the importation of these casks.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

-I admit that they will continue to be imported, but they are a valuable commodity.; A cask imported full of brandy or whisky has, when empty, a certain market value, nearly equal to the value of a new cask, and in some cases possibly these casks are of greater value, because they have been matured, than are new casks. The coopers say that these second-hand casks have a life of from ten to twenty years.

Mr Frazer:

-Does the honorable member think that theimposition of a duty would lead to a diminution in the number of casks imported?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– No; the coopers admit that they will still come in, but they say that if a duty be imposed they will have an added value, and so will not compete on such advantageous terms with locally-made casks.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– These casks will still sell at exactly the same price here.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– No; they would sell at present prices, plus the duty.

Mr McWilliams:

– What addition to the price would the duty involve?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I believe that brandy and whisky casks are sold at from £1 to 25s. each.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– They are worth about £1 each.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The duty would therefore amount to 5s. or 6s. on each cask, and the local coopers say that it would cause these discarded casks to be sold at a higher rate, and that they would not then come into such severe competition with new casks locally made.

Mr Frazer:

– Are not the importers more likely to charge the increased duty on the liquid which the casks contain?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– I do not think they would increase the price of the contents to the consumer by the amount of the duty imposed on the casks. I think they would try to recover the duty by charging more for the empty casks, and that would to some extent prevent them being dumped on the market as they are at the present time in competition with the new casks locally made. That is the coopers’ case, and I think there is a great deal in it. If these casks were sold at their legitimate value there would not be the same competition with locally-made casks.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The honorable member will not find importers selling casks at a penny less than they can get for them.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– One witness who appeared before the Tariff Commission said that, in Victoria alone, upwards of 15,000 second-hand casks are placed on the market every year in competition with new casks locally made. I think that the proposal submitted by the Treasurer is better, because more discriminating, than that recommended by the Tariff Commission. It will not impose a duty on ink casks, pitch casks, or other casks that have no marketable value when emptied of their contents, but only on casks which have a legitimate and considerable market value. I think that is a fair thing.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

– I feel disposed to vote in favour of a substantial duty in order that the work of making casks shall be retained for our local’ coopers. I am prepared to be guided by the advice of the authorities on the question whether the duty should be a fixed or an ad valorem duty. But I must say that on the question now before the Committee the argument to which we have listened from the honorable member for Bendigo is quite beside the mark. I could understand the honorable member pleading: for a special duty on full casks if that would have the effect of reducing the number imported, because that would give a wider market to the Australian industry..

Sir John Quick:

– We have put a duty on full bottles.

Mr FRAZER:

– The honorable member admits that the imposition of a duty on full casks would not reduce by a single, cask the number imported. Therefore, theonly possible result of the imposition of such a duty would be to add to the cost of the contents imported in these casks, and the argument that it would lessen the competition with the locally-made article is immediately exploded. I remind honorable members of the course adopted by the Committee in dealing with tanks imported, as packages for goods, and which also come into competition with a local industry.

Mr Mathews:

– That was done in theinterests of the “ poor farmer.”

Mr FRAZER:

– It would be verv much easier to’ find other means for importingthe goods which are imported in tanks thanit would be to find other means of importing the liquids which are now imported’ in casks. The appeal for the poor farmer, as the honorable member for MelbournePorts says, might have led the Committee to take the course it did in dealing with’ full tanks, but that does not alter the position in this case. Casks will continue to be imported whether a duty is imposed upon them or not, and they must continue to come into competition with the local article.

Mr Mathews:

– Yes; but by placing a duty on full casks the importers would be induced to charge a higher price for them when their contents have been discharged.

Mr FRAZER:

– I ask the honorable member to say whether he thinks the importers would give these casks away, or would sell them for 2s., if they could get 4s. for them? Does the honorable member really believe that the imposition of the duty would give these casks an increased value?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– They are waste products after the importers have done with them, but they get what they can for them.

Mr FRAZER:

– These casks may be waste products, but they have a certain value, and I am at a loss to understand how the imposition of a dutv upon them will increase their value, which must be determined, by their fitness for any use to which it might be desired to put them. I think the best thing we can do is to maintain the conditions which prevailed under the old Tariff, and impose a duty upon the next item, which would secure to the coopers of Australia the making of the casks required in this country.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I did not desire to say anything at this stage. Casks, barrels, and vats are valued for Customs purposes at 22s. 6d. for hogsheads and 14s. 6d. for quarter casks. In the case of hogsheads, containing about 60 gallons, the duty proposed would amount to an added tax of about 2½d. per gallon for the casings alone. That seems to me to. be an extraordinary amount of duty to charge on casings. As the honorable member for . Kalgoorlie has pointed out, liquid contents must be brought here in something. I wish to see Australian woods used wherever possible in connexion with all our manufactures, but I suppose it will be admitted that it would be impracticable, at present, to send Australian woods to Great Britain for the manufacture of the casks to be shipped back to Australia with goods. I am quite willing that an effective protective duty should be placed upon empty casks. * The people who use casks do not desire to import empty casks,’ but as primary producers they do expect to be able to obtain as cheaply as possible casks imported with contents, on which duty has already been paid. I wish the Treasurer to think that oyer. I suppose I can claim to have tried as much to advance Australian industries as the Treasurer has done. I have had some thousands of Australian casks made, but seven ‘years ago my advices were that if I shipped wines in casks made of Australian woods they, would be refused. I can tell honorable members why. I heard the Treasurer mention mountain ash and also blackwood as suitable timbers for casks.

Sir William Lyne:

– I said blackbutt, too.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I have not tried blackbutt, but I have tried blackwood, and I am prepared to sell the Treasurer some thousands of blackwood staves today at a twentieth of what they cost me. I cannot use them, and I should like the honorable gentleman to take them off my hands, because they are becoming wormeaten, and are an eyesore to me. I shipped a few hundred hogsheads, and there were complaints that the casks, though they had been treated with caustic soda to purify them, tainted the wine. The wood is too bitter. It is splendid for cabinet purposes, but it is not good for shipping wines or liquids that must maintain a special flavour-.

Sir William Lyne:

– I know that some people at Albury have used Australian casks.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– If they. did they lost their shipping business. I remember Albury thirty years ago, as the Treasurer does. I have had large quantities of mountain ash casks made in Melbourne. They are of no commercial value after they reach London. Merchants will not buy’ them. At Home they get a fixed price of 5s. for secondhand hogsheads. The great majority of the Australian woods, besides tainting the ‘ contents, are too brittle. I desire to encourage the use of Australian casks, and would place an order to-morrow if I were told where I could get Australian wood fit to make casks suitable for wine for the British trade. I could give the names of men who have made casks in Melbourne. There is little or no demand for them for shipping wine, though they are used for holding tallow and other things. The goods contained in full casks imported have already paid a high duty, and surely it is not desired to charge a second duty On the casks. As the honorable member for Kalgoorlie pointed out, those casks are practically a by-product, and . are sold for whatever they will bring in the open market. When empty, they only bring 5s. each at Home. I imported’ a large numLer of casks from Sydney last year because I was shipping a fair quantity at the time. I got them put on board at 10s., while similar casks, if made here, would have cost me £1 apiece. That is a consideration to me, because I can charge nothing for the casks in selling my produce. It is only fair and right, in the interest of the primary producer, that full casks should be admitted free, as they were under the old Tariff. A duty on them will be a tax on the primary producer. If the Treasurer wishes to encourage the making of casks here, I do not object to . his imposing a higher duty on empties than is proposed in the Tariff ; but I strongly object to any tax on casks that come here full.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I rise to get a little information from the honorable and learned member for Bendigo. I understood him to say that if an extra duty were put on full casks, they would Sell at a higher price when cast off- bv the importer, and that, therefore, he wants a duty imposed so that the competition with the local article may be lessened.

Sir John Quick:

– So that there should be greater equality in competition. .

Mr MAHON:

– The honorable and learned member contends then that the duty would increase the price?

Sir John Quick:

– That is the contention of the coopers.

Mr MAHON:

– But we have listened here for six years to the contention of protectionists that a duty always lowers the price of the article on which it is imposed. Which side of that argument are we to accept? At one time, we are told that a protective dutv will lower the cost of the commodity to the consumer; but now- the honorable and learned member for Ben- digo tells us that the imposition of a duty will increase the price.

Sir John Quick:

– I did not sav that. I said it would increase the price of the second-hand casks, not of the locally-made cask.

Mr MAHON:

– By-and-by the honorable and learned member will argue that to impose a higher dutv on an article will lower the cost.

Sir John Quick:

– So it will in many cases.

Mr MAHON:

– It is certain that the two contentions cannot be right. A dutv cannot lower the price in one case and raise it in another. The difficulty I am in about this item is that, if the duty on full casks is increased, the importer will simply put the increased cost on to the price of the liquid, and get his profit out of that. He will still sell the casks as he does now at the highest price he can. get. Being- unable to get any explanation from the honorable and learned member for Bendigo of the enigma of a duty in one case lowering, and in another case raising the price to the consumer - each side of the case being advocated by protectionists - I shall resume my seat.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Minister withdraw his amendment, in order to allow me to move the omission of the words “ full or “ ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I have decided to resort to the old practice of allowing full casks to come in free, but I shall ask the Committee to impose a high duty on the empty casks.

Mr Wynne:

– Hear, hear. Thirty-five and 30 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I propose to ask for duties of 35 and 30 per cent. I desire to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the words “full or” be left out.

That after the words “35 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907 (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be added.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 322. Hogsheads, secondhand, full or empty, each 12s.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I propose to omit the words “ full’ or “ in this item also.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- The coopers complain more bitterly of the second-hand hogsheads than of the new ones. It is suggested that the second-hand ones should be dealt- with separately. It would be very unfair to impose the same ad valorem rate of duty on a second-hand as on a new cask, because, where the new might be worth£1 or 25s., the secondhand, although nearly as good, would be valued at only from 6s. to 10s. Therefore an ad valorem rate would hardly be a fair basis, especially as the second-hand article might have a long life and come into competition with the locally-made article. I am told that many second-hand hogsheads are imported and sold at low prices. I therefore submit that an ad valorem duty would not be a fair, reasonable, or effective way of dealing with second-hand hogsheads, and that a fixed duty should be imposed upon them.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– In order to bring this item into unison with the last, I move -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907 - Item 322A. Hogsheads, secondhand, empty, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be added.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– Do I understand that all full casks are to be free of duty, while empty casks, hogsheads, quarters, or whatever they are called, are to be dutiable at rates of 35 and 30 per cent. ?

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I am perfectly satisfied, and I am sure the trade will be. The desire is to encourage the use of Australian wood; but I am afraid that in the oase of wines and spirits, a little taste is imparted by the wood.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- It is quite patent that second-hand hogsheads will be invoiced at half the value of new hogsheads ; and, therefore, I think there is much in the contention of the honorable member for Bendigo that there should be a fixed duty in the case of the former.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 323. Shooks -

Hogshead, new, each, 6s. 6d.

Barrel, new, each, 5s.

Half -hogshead, new, each, 4s. 6d.

Kilderkin, new, each, 3s. 6d.

Puncheon, new, each,11s.

Hogshead, second-hand, each,10s.

N.E.I., ad val., 35 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I desire to strike out the word “each’-‘ wherever it occurs, with a view to proposing ad valorem duties.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- An ad valorem duty in the case of shooks will be altogether ineffective - they are the greatest curse of the coopering trade. If the Treasurer desires to give any assistance to coopers, there ought to be a fixed duty imposed on shooks. These are imported in bundles from Calcutta and other places in India, the staves having been separated and numbered in order that they may be put together on their arrival in Australia. Packed in this way, they take up small space, and are carried at low rates. A hogshead, originally worth 25s. in Calcutta,- is broken up into a shook and sold at 6s. This is the last appeal I shall make on behalf of the coopers, and I urge strongly that an ad valorem duty will be entirely ineffective.

Mr Mahon:

– Fixed duties are proposed in the Tariff.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– But I understand that the Treasurer proposes to strike out the word “ each “ wherever it occurs, with a view to imposing ad valorem duties.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I have not yet submitted any amendment, though my intention was as stated. However, considering the great experience and knowledge . possessed by the honorable member for Bendigo, I am prepared to allow- the fixed duties to remain.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- On behalf of the coopers, I feel even more interested in the duty on shooks than I am in the duty on barrels. I should not object to the duty on the complete barrel being reduced, but, as I have already indicated, the importation of these shooks are really destroying the coopers’ trade, which, as such, is dying out. So long as this importation goes on, it is found impossible to train apprentices to the coopering trade, because all they are required to do is to fit the staves together. The coopers will be greatly disappointed unless there are fixed duties or a substantial equivalent.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I trust the Minister will agree to a fixed duty on shooks. As the honorable member for Bendigo has explained, shooks are imported principally from India, put together here under the circumstances he described, and sold at about one-fourth of their value in India or London. They are sent here because there is a better chance of getting cheap loading from India to Australia than from India to England, and they have been sold f.o.b. in Calcutta and Bombay as low as 6s. 6d. f.o.b., whereas the actual value in London is about 30s.

Mr Mahon:

– The proposed duty is about 100 per cent.

Mr TUDOR:

– But it is not 100 per cent, on the- actual value of the article. The barrel having been used only once for the transit of beer, whisky or other liquor, is as valuable, or even more valuable, as a seasoned cask than when it was new. Not a single employer has spoken to me on this matter, but the. representatives of the men’s unions have seen me, and, as there is a fixed duty on dressed staves, they suggest that there should also be a fixed duty on shooks. If we desire to retain the coopering industry, a fixed duty should certainly be imposed.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I do not think that it would be fair to impose an excessive duty, seeing that these casks are mostly used. bv smaller manufacturers. I should like to know how many shooks -come to this country, because it is years since I saw them.

Sir John Quick:

– Shiploads come here.

Mr Tudor:

– About 95 per cent, of Carlton Brewery casks are imported as shooks.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– If so, I did not know the fact. Any person who knows anything of the subject can detect a shook cask at . once, and, when empty, the highest price is’ 3s. to 5s. in England.

Sir John Quick:

– Beer barrels?

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– Yes, for secondhand hogsheads ; the Very utmost price is 5s., and it costs about 9d. or is. to make the barrels into shooks.

Sir John Quick:

– I am relying on the sworn evidence given before the Commission.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I am now giving my own evidence of what I know.

Sir John Quick:

– But the honorable member is not subject to cross-examination.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– Crossexamination would in no way alter my statement. Years ago I used to import shooks, and, calculating the cost of 2s. 6d. for putting the shooks together, with is. for freight and other charges, the actual value is not. above 12s. Further, it is impossible to get more than three good casks out of five sets of shooks. They are used mostly by the manufacturers of dry goods in the various capitals.

Sir John Quick:

– Are they not used as rejuvenated beer barrels?

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– They may be, but I know nothing of the beer industry. We have been told that the life of a cask is twenty years, and that may be so; but if the cask is in transit constantly two or three years is about the limit. Beer casks are generally made of strong wood, frequently Australian wood, and are very good. It is absurd to impose a duty of ios. on a second-hand cask which at the very outside is not worth more than 6s. to 8s., and, in my opinion, duties of 35 per cent, and 30 per cent, are quite ample.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am altogether puzzled about the recommendations of the Tariff Commission. Those recommendations are based on statements made to them by a conference of delegates of the Victorian Association of Coopers and the Master Coopers’ Association, who, according to the Tariff Commission’s report, declare that a new hogshead is worth 25s., whereas a shook hogshead is worth 25s. 6d. Can that be right?

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– It is absolutely wrong.

Mr Bamford:

– I suppose that is on account of the hoops.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– But the cost of a shook, hoops and all, cannot exceed 14s. or 15s.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member for Grampians, who has bought shooks, says that the value is only 14s. or 15s*. ; but, of course, the Tariff Commission accepted the statement of those who make the shooks, and declare them to be worth 25s. 6d.

Sir John Quick:

– We had no other evidence.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is the whole trouble; it seems to me that the Commission did not get complete evidence.

Sir John Quick:

– We had no time : we were told to hurry up. I had had quite enough of it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I can quite believe that the honorable member had had “quite enough of it.” I am making no complaint against the honorable member personally, because we all know with what rare industry he applied himself to the work. What I am pointing out is the onesided character of the evidence, and its little value. I think the Minister would be quite justified in making these duties uniform at an ad valorem rate. If the coopering trade cannot stand with a duty of 35 per cent., it is a business which ought to be left to look after itself. Why coopers should be exempt from the ordinary competition of trade, I do not know. The honorable member for Bendigo says that there is a danger of the industry dving out; but there is a price to be paid for everything, and, if the industry dies with protection to the extent of 35 per cent., it will merely prove that there are coopers somewhere else in the world who can do very much better with less protection. The great difficulty presented in all the evidence of the Tariff Commission is that it is grossly one-sided ; none of it is corroborated, and, although sworn to, is ex parte right through. I intend to move that these duties be omitted, and that a uniform ad valorem rate be substituted for them.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I propose to adhere to. the specific duties, with the exception of the rate levied upon second-hand hogsheads.-

Mr Tudor:

– That is absolutely the worst article included in this item, in so far as it comes into competition with the locally-made article.

Sir John Quick:

– I am quite prepared to agree to a duty of 5s. upon second-hand hogsheads.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– My difficulty is to ascertain the value of these hogsheads. The honorable member for Grampians has stated that second-elass hogsheads are worth about 14s. each.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I said that shooks were worth about 6s. or 7s. each, and that the cost of a new hogshead, unmade, was 14s. or 15s. The making would cost an additional 5s. or 6s.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– If the shook is valued at 6s. or 7s.-

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– The duty proposed is equivalent to more than 100 per cent. As a rule, these shooks are cut up and used by the small manufacturers in large centres. A second-hand shook does not find its way to the farmer, because he requires good casks.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- Upon page 603 of volume 5 of the Minutes of Evidence of the Tariff Commission will be found a letter written by Messrs. Robertson, Morrison, and Company, for the purpose of showing the value of second-hand shooks. It reads -

Re empty beer hogsheads. Confirming^ ours of the 24th ultimo, in order to give you some idea of the cost of hogsheads in shooks, c.i.f., your port, we beg to inform you that at the present rate of freight this would be 10s. per hogshead landed in Melbourne. .

That document shows that a shook which is worth only 5s. or 6s. in Calcutta has a landed value in Melbourne of 10s.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “ 10s.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, each (General Tariff), 5s.,” be inserted; that after the words 35 per cent.” the words “and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 30 per cent.,” be added.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 324.” Buckets and Tubs, wooden, ad val. (General Tariff), 45 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 35 per cent.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- Perhaps the Treasurer would explain why he proposes to increase the duty upon tubs from 20 per cent, to 45- per cent., and to make buckets which were formerly free dutiable at the same extravagantly high rate? The increase proposed upon this item is 10 per cent, in excess of the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission. The Treasurer has inserted the duty recommended by that portion of the Commission in the preference column, and has increased the rate against the . outside world by 10 per cent. I should like some explanation as to the reasons underlying his action.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The A section of the Tariff Commission recommended the imposition of a duty of 35 per cent, upon this item, and we have proposed a duty of 45 per cent, under the general Tariff, in order that we may be able to charge the imports from Great Britain the rate recommended by the Commission.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- The Treasurer has explained that it is owing to the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission that a duty of 35 per cent, has been levied upon buckets and tubs imported from the United Kingdom. But the Chairman of the Commission has stated that in recommending such high rates of duty, the A section of that body had in mind the maximum amount of duty. He conveyed the impression to my mind that its members did not intend that the rates which they recommended should prevail against Great Britain, and that a still higher rate should be charged against the outside world.

Mr Wise:

– That is not so.

Mr JOHNSON:

– It is. I spoke to the honorable member for Bendigo about the matter, and I understood him to mean that his idea was that the duties recommended by the protectionist section of the Commission were to be the maximum rates against the outside world.

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr JOHNSON:

– I. am speaking of what the honorable member for Bendigo himself- told me.

Sir William Lyne:

– And I am speaking of what he said in this chamber.

Mr JOHNSON:

– I did not hear him say it.’ In any case, I move -

That the words “ Buckets and “ be left out.

Mr WISE:
Gippsland

– I am rather surprised that we should once more be confronted with a statement as to what were the intentions of the A section of the Tariff Commission in making their recommendations. The Chairman of that body distinctly pointed out in this chamber what was the idea underlying his recommendations, and I have quoted his utterances in this connexion upon more than one occasion. They clearly show that the honorable member for Lang, in making the statement which he did just now, is in error.

Mr Johnson:

– What does the honorable member propose to quote from?

Mr WISE:

– From a speech which the honorable and learned member for Bendigo made in this House, and from which I quoted in my speech on the Tariff and Budget proposals of the Government. On that occasion I said -

With reference to the report of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission he said their recommendations were of a substantially protective character designed to protect our industries against the whole world, including Great Britain.

Mr Johnson:

– I submit that the honorable member is out of order in quoting an extract from a speech made in the House during the current session.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Tariff and Budget proposals of the Government were discussed at the one time, and the honorable member for. Gippsland is entitled toquote a passage from any speech which has relation to the item now before the Committee.

Mr WISE:

– It is an extraordinary thing that the honorable member for Lang should think that he has the right to misrepresent the honorable member for Bendigo, and to object to me representing the views of that honorable member correctly. At a later stage of his remarks, the Chairman of the Tariff Commission said -

T am not prepared to agree to a reduction of duty upon any class of goods - even in favour of Great Britain - which would be prejudicial to manufactures.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– But he is not infallible. ‘ The honorable member heard him - say to-day that he was wrong.

Mr WISE:

– J know that. I only rose to correct the statement made by the honorable member, for Lang, that the duties recommended by the A section of the Tariff Commission were the maximum duties, and that they were to be reduced for preferential purposes.

Mr Johnson:

– I said that in answer to a question I put he gave me to understand that. 1

Mr WISE:

– I have quoted what he said.

Mr Johnson:

– Then he has made two different statements.

Mr WISE:

– He. said that on some articles, such as cutlery, which are not made here, he might be prepared to recommend a reduction in the duty, but that as regards any articles which would interfere with local products, he was not prepared to recommend a reduction in the duty, even as against Great Britain.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I desire to ascertain from the Treasurer whether wooden buckets are made- in Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– I should think so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Where are they made?

Mr Mauger:

– They are made under the shadow of the fire brigade station.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I thought that a Melbourne atmosphere must be surrounding this item. Otherwise we would not have been asked to impose a duty of 45 per cent, on the old .wooden bucket.

Mr Chanter:

– They are made all over the Commonwealth.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If the housewives do not hunt my honorable friends with brooms, they ought to do so.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed -

That after the words “ 45 per cent.” the words “-and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin

. -I ask the Treasurer to accept the amendment, which, if carried, will mean that wooden buckets will be dutiable at 30 and 25 per cent, respectively. Some of these buckets are exceedingly cheap and are used very largely in fruit-picking. The fruitpickers constitute the poorest class in the community, and as they have to provide their own buckets, a duty of 45 per cent, is a heavy tax upon them.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Give the- timber industry a fair show.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

-.It is rather amusing to hear that honorable members who refused, to give a protection of 15 per cent, to the men who cut the timber are willing to give a protection of 35 per cent, to the men in the city who make buckets out of the timber. Out of every two o bucketsfull which the fruit-pickers pick in Tasmania they get one bucket, and the orchard gets the other.

Mr Chanter:

– Do they use imported buckets ?

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– Yes’.

Mr Chanter:

– More shame to them, then.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– The bucket is exceedingly cheap, being sold readily at about is.

Mr Chanter:

– All the buckets required in Riverina are made of Australian wood.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– In Tasmania a very much higher price is paid for the fruit which is picked in buckets, because it does not pulp the same as it does when picked in tubs. The zinc bucket is unsuitable, because it stains and destroys the fruit in a short time. Wooden buckets are exceedingly cheap, and last about one season. Sometimes a family will have to obtain four or five buckets at a time. The fruitpickers are the very poorest class in the community. Generally a widow with fourof five children will go into the fruitgrowing districts, and when . the fruitpicking is done they go hop-picking.

Sir William Lyne:

– Very well ; if the honorable member will stop, I will agree to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) agreed to -

That after the words “35 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Division XI. - Jewellery and Fancy Goods.”

Item 325. Fancy Goods; including Card Cases; Snuff and Match Boxes; Purses n.e.i. ; Wallets; Thimbles; Serviette Rings; Button Hooks; Shoe-horns and Lifts; Glove Stretchers; Toys ; Ivory and other ornamental figures ; Feather Dusters; Paper Parasols; Articles used for outdoor and indoor games; Fishing Appliances, n.e.i. ; and Articles, n.e.i., used for ornamental purposes, or partly for use and partly for ornament, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I notice that this item includes toys. I believe that toys such as dolls have never been made here. It costs over 70 per cent, to land them, and I certainly think that they should not be required to bear such a heavy impost as is proposed.

Sir William Lyne:

– Is that the reason why the doll was brought into the Chamber just now?

Mr TUDOR:

– I did not bring the doll, but whoever did so did the right thing. I am in favour of a reduction of the duty on dolls, as they are not made here. I think that the Minister might agree to an alteration of the duty on toys generally. This item also includes articles used for outdoor and indoor games. I believe that those articles include boxing gloves and cricketing gloves and material. As boxing gloves are made here, I think that all articles used for outdoor and indoor games should be put in a separate line, and made subject to a heavy duty.

Sir William Lyne:

– Thirty-five per cent, is a fair duty.

Mr TUDOR:

– I think it would have been better to put boxing gloves and cricketing gloves and leg guards, which are all made here, in a separate line, so that we could ascertain the extent of the importations.’ I have received a letter from a firm engaged in the manufacture of boxing and cricketing gloves. The writer says -

For your information, I called at a prominent Sports Depét to-day re cricket goods. They replied, “We never buy Colonial stuff unless we run out of imported, and we will have enough to see us through this season.” This is consoling, especially as we can sell to them goods equally as well finished (if not of stronger make) at about 100 per cent. less than their selling prices marked in the windows.

I trust that if there is any proposal to reduce the duty the Treasurer will pick out sporting goods and put them in a separate line, so that they will bear a heavier duty.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– In this item, the words “ fishing appliances n.e.i.” appear. In item 396, appear the words “ fishing nets and netting.” If, ‘as I understand and hope, fishermen’s nets and netting are to be. struck out of the item in which thev appear, they would, unless provision were otherwise made, be dutiable as fishing appliances. So long as care is taken that they are not taxed under this item, I shall be satisfied.

Sir William Lyne:

– I shall take care of that.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

.- I hope that when we reach item 396, fishing nets and netting, we shall make those goods free, and shall also exclude from the payment of duty the appliances used by fishermen who earn their living at sea.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– How can we distinguish between nets that are used by professional fishermen and those used by amateurs ?

Mr CROUCH:

– The professional (fisherman does not use fancy articles such as floats and reels. He uses lines and nets, but does not bother himself about the tackle which amateurs use. I understand that the Treasurer intends to make it clear that the appliances used by those who get their living by fishing shall be free. If that be so, the honorable member for North Sydney’ can safely leave this item as it stands.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- -What is the Treasurer going to do in regard to children’s toys ? They are made dutiable tinder this item. Do I understand that dolls, children’s toy balls and rubber balls are all included under it.

Sir William Lyne:

– At present, yes.

Mr PAGE:

– Children’s dolls now cost to import 73 per cent, of their value. Surely the Minister does not want to make toys dearer?

Sir William Lyne:

– I want to strike cut the word “toys “ from the item.

Mr Tudor:

– I think we should have a separate item for toys, and that they should be free.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Why cannot they be made in Australia?

Mr Maloney:

– Rag dolls are made here.

Mr PAGE:

– I move-

That the word “ toys,” line 6, be left out.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

.- There seems to be a good deal of sentiment about this subject, and I- am surprised that honorable members should introduce sentiment into the consideration of a Tariff. One would think that toys were of such a scientific and complicated construction, and so affected by patents, that it was impossible to manufacture them in Australia. I do not see why the toys used by our children should not be made here. Furthermore, I think we are justified in endeavouring to find avenues of employment for women. Toy -making is really women’s work. A reasonable duty would not penalize the children by any means. On the cheaper lines a duty would make very little difference. It might fall heavier upon the dearer kinds of toys, but those who could afford to buy expensive toys are well able to pay the extra duty. There is every reason why we should encourage the manufacture of dolls and toys in Australia instead of importing them from Germany.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- I trust that the Treasurer will agree to strike out the word “ toys “ in the item with a. view to making them duty free. It is bad enough to tax children’s clothes and food, without imposing a duty on ‘ their playthings. Our little ones will hot be children very long. Let us make their youthful lives as pleasant and happy as possible, and let them have as many toys as their parents and friends can buy for them. Let them be as cheap as possible so that the children of the poorer classes may have as generous a share of them as their parents’ circumstances will allow. I hope that the Treasurer will yield to the appeal that has been made to him, and will agree to strike out the word “ toys.”

Sir William Lyne:

– I have already said that I would do so.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.4.5 p.m.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That after the word “ Toys “ the words “ other than Dolls, undressed,” be inserted.

Mr Page:

– What would be the effect of that amendment?

Sir William Lyne:

– It will make undressed doll’s free.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr EDWARDS:
Oxley

.- There are a number of small articles in this item which might well be left out. Take, for instance, thimbles.

The CHAIRMAN:

-We have’ already inserted an amendment in a later line, so that the honorable member could not now move to omit the word “ thimbles.”

Mr EDWARDS:

– I understand that tailors’ thimbles are free, and I should like to know why seamstresses’ thimbles except in silver or gold are not also free? It seems unjust that the one line should be free while the other is subject to a dutv of 35 per cent, and 25 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– I can do nothing now.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the word “ornament” the words “ including Fancy Ground and Cut Glass Bottles of over 5 drams of fluid capacity containing goods not subject to ad valorem duty and Stoppers for such bottles “ be inserted. .

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- Since it has been decided that toys shall be subject to taxation I shall endeavour to make the tax as light as possible. I move -

That after the words “ 35 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 20 per cent.” be inserted.’

Sir William Lyne:

– I am prepared to agree to duties of 30 per cent, and 25 per cent.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 6

NOES: 27

Majority … … 21

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) negatived -

That after the words “ 35 per cent “ the words “ and on and after 7th December, . 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.,” be inserted.

Amendment (by Mr. Edwards) proposed -

That after the words “35 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

– I expressed a hope before dinner that if the Minister accepted a reduction in these duties he would agree to take out of this item “ Articles used for outdoor and indoor games.” My reason is that the makers of boxing gloves and cricketing gloves and pads have, under a later item, to pay duties on the raw material they use in the shape of leather. They should be given some protection, to cover the duties they will be called upon to pay on their raw materials.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the following new item be inserted : - “325A. On and after 7th December, 1907, Dolls, undressed, free.”

Item 326. Combs (toilet) and Shaving Sets, ad val., 25 per cent.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed, to -

That after the word “Sets” the words “not included under item 384” be inserted.

Amendment (by Sir William ‘ Lyne) proposed -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907 (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.,” be added.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- This is an outrage. If this item is passed as proposed, I shall be compelled to grow a beard. The people who manufacture shaving pots and soap will suffer, but I will have to suffer also. I should like to impress honorable members with the importance of this question. I recently read an article, I think, in last Saturday’s Age, in which reference was made to the great danger of wearing beards. I was going to say that the article was cribbed ; it was an article by a scientific authority that was reproduced in the Age. It was stated by the writer that a beard is the most dangerous thing a man can wear, and is dangerous especially to the other sex, since beards gather up and accumulate all kinds of malignant microbes, such as the microbes of’ diphtheria, influenza, and other undesirable ailments.

Mr Salmon:

– Where did the scientist get his information ? Was it gathered from the lips of a lady?

Mr JOHNSON:

– I believe that is how he made the discovery. Personally I have too great a regard for the other sex to be content to see them exposed to these terrible risks. I cannot support the proposal.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I should like to point out that the incidence of taxation under this item would be unfair if not unjust. For instance, the honorable member for Parramatta would not require to pay any duty under this item. Even at this stage the Treasurer might reconsider his proposal in view of the fact that its operation would be inequitable.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 327. Pencils and Penholders of wood, free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following words be added : - :: and on and after 7th December, 1907, Pencils of wood1, but not including pencils with metal or other clamps or attachments, also penhandles of wood (including metal attachments for nibs), free.”

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- I object to the amendment. Why did not the officers of the Customs Department think of this when they were framing the Tariff? I have here a pencil with a metal cover for the point, and the Treasurer now proposes to make it dutiable because it has a metal attachment.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– No; the Treasurer is proposing to make those pencils free.

Mr PAGE:

– Then I am satisfied.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 328. School Pen and Pencil Sets, including boxes, free.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- The word “ and “ should be substituted for the word “including” in this item. I have one of these . pen and pencil boxes here, and, while it would be admitted free if it contained pens or pencils, if the box were introduced by itself, it would be dutiable at 25 per cent, as furniture. I think that whether they contain pencils or not, these boxes should be admitted free. I move -

That the word “including” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ and.”

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 329 - (Paint boxes), and item 330 (Shells, Weapons and Curios, and Old Coins) - agreed to.

Item 331. Jewellery, unfinished, being settings and mounts for, with or without imitation stones, ad val. (General Tariff), 40 per cent, ; (United Kingdom), 35 per cent.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I have a few samples here of this unfinished jewellery. You, sir, are probably the best judge we have in the chamber of the value of these goods, and if you were not in the chair you would no doubt have something to say about them. The point I wish to make is that they are practically finished articles. I have 15-carat rings here, which I am informed by experts in the trade, employers as well’ as employes, are worth about 10s. each. All that is required to finish them is to put the stones in them, for which they have been prepared, and these stones are sent out in a separate parcel and admitted free. When the stones .are set in the ring, its value is increased to about £2, and this increase in value is brought about with very small expense for labour. We have allowed precious stones to come in free, and under this arrangement of the Tariff a lot of work in the jewellery t -Fade which might be done here will be done elsewhere. I admit that ‘I do not know how the difficulty is to be overcome. I have here also a 15- carat brooch practically finished, and requiring only the stones to be set. I have samples also of bracelet fronts in the same stage of manufacture. Goods of this kind, which would be valued at the Custom House at £1 or .a little more, are worth when the stones have been set in them perhaps £10. The Minister might consult with the officers to see whether some means might not be discovered to prevent this evasion of the duties on jewellery which every honorable member will admit is a luxury.

Mr Mahon:

– The unfinished article is dutiable under the Tariff at 40 per cent.

Mr TUDOR:

– Precious stones are admitted duty free, so that when a ring setting and its stone are imported separately, duty is paid only on the setting, and, of course, comes to very much less than if the two were brought in together as a finished article. I trust that if there is any way of preventing this evasion of duty it will be taken. If the Minister cannot suggest an amendment now, will he look into the matter, and subsequently issue a regulation which will get over the difficulty?

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- The case is stated on page 396 of the report of the A section of the Tariff Commission in this way -

Unfinished jewellery generally consists of settings and mounts for bracelets, brooches, necklets, and rings, which are made up and imported apart from their precious stones. The manufacturing jewellers, as well as the workers in Victoria, suggested that there should be a higher duty on such jewellery than on complete jewellery. They believe that such a higher duty would tend to reduce the importations of these unfinished settings and mounts, and that it would encourage their manufacture in Australia..

It is a grievance with manufacturing jeweller* and jewellers’ workers that practically finished articles can be imported on the payment of an extremely small duty by placing the fittings or mounts in one parcel and the gems in another. This is really a fraud on the revenue which the Customs authorities have found themselves unable tu prevent. I have consulted the highest Customs authorities in Australia, with reference to the matter, and they can suggest no better way of dealing with it than that proposed.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Notwithstanding what has been said by the honorable member for Yarra, I think that the proposed rates are too high.

Mr Page:

– They should be higher. What takes place now is a fraud on the revenue.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– How can it be a fraud on the revenue, seeing that the Tariff provides for it being done? The duty is on “ unfinished jewellery.”

Mr Chanter:

– But practically finished jewellery is imported as unfinished.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– -The settings and mounts for jewellery, with or without imitation stones, are dutiable as unfinished jewellery, and there is no fraud in importing them as such. If honorable members wish to prevent the importation of unfinished jewellery, let them strike out the item altogether. In my opinion, the proposed rates are altogether too high, and I therefore move -

That after the words “40 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907 (General Tariff), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

If the amendment is carried, I shall- move to make the duty against the United Kingdom 25 per cent.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– It seems to me that the higher the rates of duty in this item, the less the likelihood of the fraud to which reference has been made being practised. The honorable member for Parramatta cannot cloud the issue. The -fact is that practically finished jewellery is brought in at a low rate by separating the settings and the stones to make it dutiable as unfinished jewellery. As a matter of fact, it is so much finished that any one could put it together, could set it and finish it, with a penknife, making it a marketable commodity at once. I hope that Hie Treasurer will make the duty 50 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member for Maranoa believe in taxing jewellery at the rate of 50 per cent. ?

Mr Page:

– Yes; jewellery brought in in this way. The honorable member should be the last to defend a fraud on the revenue.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is barking up the wrong tree. The jewellery which is brought in as unfinished rightly pays only the duty leviable on unfinished jewellery. The honorable member has been a staunch free-trader until of late, when the Melbourne atmosphere seems to have affected him. Surely rates of 30 and 25 per cent, are sufficiently high even for finished jewellery.

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

.- I wish to read to the Committee the reason which actuated the trade in asking for a duty of 100 per cent. It is this -

As a consequence of these articles being ad- mitted at a comparatively small expense as compared with the value of them when the stones are set in, the manufacture of high-class jewellery is only carried on at a limited extent, and although there are many workmen here capable of executing the work, there is very little encouragement for employers to teach, and for apprentices to devote their time to learning, the manufacture of high-class jewellery, owing to the small demand for the locally-made article, and a duty such as is recommended above will undoubtedly have a beneficial effect on the future of the trade in cultivating the artistic branches of it.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

. -At first the proposed duty seemed to me very high, but there is a great deal in the contention of the honorable member for Yarra. Jewellery is dutiable under item 334 at 30 and 25 per cent, but if a setting and its stones are brought in separately, and 40 per cent, is charged on the setting, while the stones are admitted free, the amount actually paid is very much smaller than would be paid on the finished article, though what is imported is virtually a finished article. For instance, a setting might be worth 10s., and the stones belonging to it might be worth 30s. If the article were imported as finished jewellery, it would be dutiable at 30 per cent., whereas if the setting and the stones were imported separately, dutywould be levied only on the setting, at the rate of 40 per cent., making the amount actually paid on the complete article only a fraction of that. A duty which permits an importation of this kind does not give valid and effective protection. Something must be done to prevent all but the least valuable part of an article coming in duty free. It seems to me that unless a very high duty is placed on settings, it will be necessary to impose a duty on precious stones.

Mr Tudor:

– That would penalize our working jewellers, to whom precious stones are a raw material.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– We might put a duty on diamonds.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not know why we should differentiate between diamonds and rubies and other stones. Perhaps the best thing would be for the Treasurer to consult ‘his officers, and subsequently propose some amendment which would make the duty effective.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid that the honorable member has fallen into a trap which has been skilfully laid by the honorable member for Yarra. There are other kinds of jewellery besides rings.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Most of the jewellery coming under item 334 consists of precious stones and their settings.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There are over a hundred other articles of jewellery besides rings.

Mr Chanter:

– The honorable member for Yarra showed brooches and bangles which have been imported as settings, without the precious stones.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member mean to say that that practice can be followed in the case of difficult and complicated brooches?

Mr Tudor:

– Yes ; I have some of them here.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That kind of brooch cannot be treated in that way. How many stones are in the brooch that the honorable member has?

Mr Tudor:

– Over twenty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Was it imported with the stones in it?

Mr Tudor:

– It was imported with the stones out of it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It may have been that another part of that jewellery, apart altogether from the stones, had to be prepared elsewhere, and that it was necessary for it to be brought in in that way.

Mr Page:

– That is too thin.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Honorable members, apparently, are getting hold of what is perhaps an abuse of a legitimate trade and a legitimate importation.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is not only an abuse. The practice to which the honorable member for Yarra has drawn atten tion will practically render the duty ineffective regarding all that jewellery which consists of settings and stones, as specified in item 334.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That might be so if they all came in in that way, but in the making up of the jewellery, certain manipulations, apart altogether from the putting in of the stones, may have to be done elsewhere. Does this item specially provide for bringing in jewellery and stones in that way ?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The item is to meet the particular cases in which the settings and stones are brought in separately.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Surely they are brought in separately for some other reason than the “ sticking of the stones in with a bit of wax”? If that is the only reason for the item, ought it not to go out of the schedule altogether?

Sir John Quick:

– The reason they are imported in that way is to escape the dutv.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Are we to put the item in so as to tempt people to escape the duty?

Sir John Quick:

– No; we propose to penalize them, and to prevent the device.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Minister say that the item is included for the purpose of catching these people at their frauds ?

Sir John Quick:

– It is to stop them and penalize them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member suggest that that is the onlyreason why the item is proposed?

Sir John Quick:

– The higher the duly, the higher the penalty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Surely the provision has some useful function to perform? I cannot illustrate my point, as I have not the requisite knowledge of the subject.

Sir John Quick:

– Read the evidence, and the honorable member will understand it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I dare say I should arrive at some such result as I have already done in reading some of the evidence. I did not appreciate a lot of the honorable member’s evidence.

Mr Page:

– It is not his evidence, but the evidence of witnesses.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The evidence in nearly every case runs somewhat thus : A certain individual says, “ I want a higher duty, or I will collapse.” Therefore he gets the higher duty.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member had better let the item pass as it is, “ lest a worse thing befall.”

Sir William Lyne:

– Would the honorable member like me to move 50 per cent. ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable gentleman ought to make the duty absolutely prohibitive, if the only intention of the item is to stop the fraud alleged.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I have alreadv suggested that one wav out of the difficulty might be to prohibit these things coming in separately.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– A prohibition might stop some useful function which is served by the articles coming in separately. Apparently the’ object of the Treasurer is only to stop the abuse, without regard to the usefulness of the practice. Will the Treasurer explain why the item is in the schedule ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The item is included in the schedule because a great deal of difficulty has been experienced for years past, and the Department has been trying to devise some means of preventing the practice to which the honorable member for Yarra has called attention. It has come to the conclusion that the onlv way is to put a high duty on this partially-finished imported jewellery.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The item appeared in the last Tariff at 25 per cent. Why is it included at all?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– It has to do its work in preventing the importation of this half-made jewellery.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But for this item, that jewellery would come in free.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– One of its essential functions is to protect other parts of the Tariff. I am surprised that some honorable members ask for a duty of 50 per cent. I do not feel disposed to move for higher rates than 40 per cent, and 35 per cent, at present. That is the recommendation of the A section of the Tariff Commission. Previously the duty was 25 per cent. If the honorable member for Parramatta will withdraw his amendment, I desire to alter the wording of the item to read as follows - “ Jewellery, unfinished, being settings and mounts for bracelets, brooches, necklets and rings, unset, or set with imitation stones.” Setting with imitation stones is another methodadopted of avoiding the higher duty. The jewellery is imported, in that way at the lower rate, the imitation stones are taken out, and more valuable stones are put in afterwards.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I will withdraw my amendment, as the alteration outlined by the Treasurer makes sense of the item.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. .

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907 - Item 331. Jewellery, unfinished, being settings and mounts for bracelets, brooches, necklets, and rings, unset, or set with imitation . stones ; ad val. (General Tariff), 40 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 35 per cent.,” be added.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The new wording will limit the application of the term “ unfinished jewellery “ to the particular articles specified. As previously worded it apparently included many other articles.

Sir John Quick:

– The new words are words of limitation. I do not think they are wide enough.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They make sense of the item. Its general application will now be entirely done away with, and it will be clearly a clause for the abolition of fraud of the kind mentioned. No one can grumble at that.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- Those protectionists who did not hesitate about imposing taxes of from 25 per cent, to 150 per cent, on food and clothing might be pardoned for regarding even. 40 per cent, or 50 per cent, as a very moderateduty on jewellery, but I shall be very glad to see the duties on these items reduced. I do not believe in taxes of any kind on either the necessaries or luxuries of life. As I have tried to get all taxes reduced on food and clothing and other necessaries, I shall be quite consistent in seeking to have them reduced also on what are called luxuries, but what I regard as part of the necessaries of life. I am sorrv the honorable member for Parramatta has withdrawn his amendment, as I should have liked an opportunity of voting for it.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended,agreed to.

Item 332. Jewellery, commonly known as imitation gold or rolled gold ; and jewellery under9-carat, ad val. (General Tariff), 40 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 35 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the words “imitation gold or” be left out.

That will thencome under item 334.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Is it the intention of the. amendment to compel people to buy expensive jewellery? Why is imitation gold to be eliminated from this item?

Sir William Lyne:

– To bring it under “imitation jewellery n.e.i.”

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– One feature of this item must be considered by the Committee. I do not ask that it should be fully considered until we reach the item “spectacle frames.” I understand that spectacle frames of rolled gold have been largely increased in price. I want the Committee to bear that in. mind when passing this item,, because I intend to ask for an exemption later on when we reach item 341.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- As showing the reason for the proposed differentiation. I quote the following from the report of the Tariff Commission -

Rolled gold jewellery consists of a sheet of metal in the centre, with a thin plate of gold in front and a similar plate of gold at the back, pressed together and rolled and consolidated, finished with a show of gold outside. A witness in Adelaide, interested in the import trade, admitted that rolled gold jewellery, like imitation jewellery, tender! to interfere . with the manufacture of the legitimate article. - (Keoppeh-Wendt, Q.57655-)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Page) proposed -

That the figure “ 9 “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figures “ 15.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The object we have in view is as far as possible to differentiate between what may be called spurious jewellery and real jewellery ; and 9-carat gold is everywhere acknowledged to be gold ; all below being regarded as spurious. I am advised that the amendment of the honorable member, if carried into effect, would cause complication at the Customs House by throwing all the gold jewellery below 15 carat into the spurious class.

Mr EDWARDS:
Oxley

.- There is a great resemblance between the item under consideration and item 334, which deals with jewellery and imitation jewellery : and I suggest that a similar duty should apply to both. I should like to read a few words which have reached my hands from some jewellers’ association in Melbourne or Sydney, to the following effect -

The proposed Tariff, under item 332, establishes a conflict between that number and item 334, for reasons that we endeavour herein to set out.

The duty on gold filled jewellery is stated - Foreign, 40 per cent.; English, 35 per cent.; under No. 332, and yet item 334 states - “ Imitation jewellery - Foreign, 30 per cent. ; English, 25 per cent.”

We respectfully submit to your notice that in making the difference between “ rolled gold jewellery” and “imitation jewellery “ such a conflict will exist in respect to decisions as will cause an element of injustice arid unrest in regard to the whole of the two lines referred to.

Perhaps the Minister would consent to reduce the duties on the item under consideration to 30 per cent, and 25” per cent., which would place it on the same level as item 334. In the old Tariff the item before us was 25 per cent., and the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 35 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– I think we may raise the duty on item 334 when we reach it.

Mr EDWARDS:

– I may point out that in the old Tariff the duty on item 324 was 25 per cent., and a similar duty was- recommended by the Tariff Commission.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– I think the Treasurer is a bit at sea in regard to 9-carat jewellery. He must remember that when he was Minister of Trade and Customshe instituted a prosecution against a Melbourne firm for importing rings which were stamped 9-carat, but which were wrongly described, and were neither more nor less than a fraud. Any day rings may be bought which are stamped “ 9-carat,” but which in reality are not even 6-carat gold.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is no reason for altering the standard in the Tariff ; it would only make fraud more frequent.

Mr PaGE:

– The higher we make the standard, the more chance there will be of the purchaser getting what he paid for.

Mr Hughes:

– What guarantee will there be if the standard be made 15-carat that the jewellery will be any nearer that standard than it is at present?

Mr PAGE:

– Experts in the trade tell me that with a 15-carat standard there is a better chance of stopping fraud. I sug gest that the Treasurer ascertain the opinion of his officers on the point.

Sir William Lyne:

– I have done so, and I am told that the amendment of the honorable member would cause confusion and trouble at the . Customs House.

Mr PAGE:

– Is it so terrible to cause more work to the CustomsDepartment, when the object is to stop fraud ?

However, the Government seem to be against me, and I shall not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 333. Jewellery, being machine made Chain in the rough (known as Brunswick pattern Foxtail, or Lace Chain) ; Gallerie ; Beads ; Catches and Joints for Fins; Clasps, n.e.i.; Points; and Brooch Pins, ad val. (General Tariff), 20 per cent. ; (Unite’d Kingdom), 15 per cent.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- This “machine made chain in the rough” is practically finished jewellery. It is imported in one long chain, and cut into the required lengths here ; and I think that, in order to protect the revenue, it ought to be placed in the next item. On the other hand, gallerie and beads are among the raw materials of jewellery, and ought to be made free. I suggest that the words “ machine made chain in the rough “ be omitted.

Sir John Quick:

– Those are the words suggested by the trade.

Item agreed to.

Item 334. Jewellery and Imitation Jewellery, n.e.i., including Bolt and Split Rings; Swivels; Ear Wires; Bars and Stampings used in manufacture of jewellery; Medals and Medallions of Gold and Silver; Links and Studs of all kinds; Buckles, Badges, Clasps, Slides, Buttons, and other Ornaments of Gold or Silver for Attire; Combined Bracelets and Watches; Gold, Silver, or Plated Safety Pins; Gold or Silver Bags and Purses; Imitation Precious Stones; Alberts of all materials, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That after the word “materials” the words “ and all articles, n.e.i., partly or wholly made of gold or silver, including gold and silver lace.”

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- I suppose there is no hope of carrying a reduction of this duty?

Sir William Lyne:

– I am inclined to increase it.

Mr JOHNSON:

– The Treasurer seems itching to move an increase. I suggest, however, that he ought to make a separate item, so as to admit of wedding rings being admitted free. We are much concerned about the decline of marriage; and some encouragement ought to be given to our young people to undertake the responsibilities of matrimony.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- I see that imitation precious stones are included in this item ; and the Treasurer a few minutes ago promised the honorable mem ber for Oxley that he would increase the duty. In many parts of Australia, and! particularly Queensland and New South Wales, there are opal fields and sapphiremines; and I do not see why the duties should be only 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, when men have to work night and day in order to make a living in the mining of these precious stones.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– What difference will a duty of 25 per cent, on glass make to the miners of precious stones ?

Mr PAGE:

– If I had my way I would make the duty 50 per cent. I ask the; Treasurer to consent to make the duties upon this item uniform with those which have been levied upon the previous item.

Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney

.- It seems to me that it would be very absurd to impose a duty of 35 per cent, upon imitation precious stones, the invoiced value of which would be very small indeed. In this country we produce rubies in such quantity that we have been obliged to call them garnets to prevent the price of rubies being reduced to a non-payable level. Yet it is now proposed to admit coloured glass at . 30 and 25 per cent. We should either prohibit its importation’ entirely, or levy a specific duty uponthis class of jewellery of so much per carat. The Treasurer knows perfectly well that the Commonwealth produces a large variety of precious stones, and that the industry is one upon which a man may embark without the possession of either capital or skill. Opals, rubies, and garnets can be obtained here by the veriest new chum, who ought to be protected just as much as anybody else.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- The Tariff Commission is in no way responsible for the inclusion of imitation precious stones in this item. As a matter of fact, this group of items was intended’ to cover Only bond -fide jewellery. For that reason, rolled gold jewellery and jeweller)’ under 9 carat were taken out of it, and the Commission recommended that they should be made dutiable at 35 per cent. My own idea is that imitation stones should be removed from this item and charged a special rate.

Mr. FOSTER (New England) [9-41- I” hope that the Treasurer will agree to eliminate imitation precious stones from this item. I am rather disappointed that the Tariff schedule makes no attempt to protect Australian diamonds. In. my own elec- torate, we have fields which are producing thousands of pounds worth of diamonds annually. For many years these precious stones were sold as Brazilian diamonds, “but now they are being sold as Australian diamonds, and even the smallest of them - if they are usable - are worth 22s. 6d. per carat. These fields have produced diamonds worth as much as £60 each in the rough. I think that we should eliminate imitation precious stones from the item under consideration with a view to prevent glass jewellery from being imported to compete with the genuine article. The only way in which we can attain our object is by the imposition of a heavy duty per carat upon precious stones. The industry is one in which tens of thousands of pounds have been invested, and there are miles and miles of country how awaiting development. Under these circumstances, I think that the industry ought to be protected.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- In the previous item, we have taxed rolled gold jewellery at 40 per cent, under the General Tariff and at 35 per cent, under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. Yet it 1s now proposed to make jewellery and imitation jewellery n.e.i. dutiable at only 30 per cent, under the General Tariff and at 25 per cent, under that for Great Britain. I agree with the honorable member for Oxley that the duties upon the two items should be made uniform.

Sir John Quick:

– Then the honorable I member would not distinguish between rolled gold jewellery, imitation jewellery, and jewellery of a high standard?

Mr TUDOR:

– If the honorable member presses his suggestion to strike out the words “imitation jewellery, n.e.i.,” I shall be prepared to consider it, but I think we should make all these lines dutiable at 40 per cent.

Sir John Quick:

– That would penalize good jewellery.

Mr TUDOR:

– It would not. In any case, jewellery is a luxury. I would further point out that , £300,000 worth of jewellery is annually imported into the Commonwealth, the bulk of which could be made here. Unless our jewellers receive a greater measure of protection for their finished article, they will be denied the opportunity of competing successfully that they should be afforded.

Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney

I wish to direct the Treasurer’s attention to the question of imitation precious stones. The honorable gentleman has told me that a working jeweller has confided to some other person that this duty is all right. But I submit that this question has nothing whatever to do with the working jeweller. It has solely to do with those who produce rubies, garnets, sapphires, &c, from our mines. It is not a question of the Australian diamond having to compete with the foreign diamond, but of the Australian precious stone having to compete with glass and imitation jewellery. We must recollect that whilst it would pay a man to smuggle diamonds, it would not pay him to bring in a load of glass worth only about 4½d. per oz. If the Treasurer will agree to the imposition of a specific duty upon this item, that will be sufficient.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I would point out to the honorable member for West Sydney that any increase of the duty proposed upon imitation precious stones would be absolutely ineffective, because the value of our own precious stones is regulated by the London market.

Mr Hughes:

– The prices of all our goods are determined by that market.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Whatever duty we may impose will have no effect whatever, because the price of precious stones in the Commonwealth is regulated by the London market. If precious stones are dearer here than they are in London, our supplies will come from London. But if a. certain price can be realized for our stones upon the London market, the vendors will expect to obtain very nearly the same price for them here. It by imposing a heavy duty upon imitation precious stones we could cause an in creased demand for the real - which is very doubtful - that increased demand would be sosmall that it would not affect the markets of the world.

Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney

.- The honorable member for North Sydney appears to think that the value of precious stones is determined by some factor other than that which determines the value of all our commodities. As a matter of fact, the price of every bushel of wheat grown in Australia is regulated by the price of wheatin London. In the same way, the price of boots here is determined by their price in London, New York, and Berlin, and by nothing else. The honorable gentleman seems to think that the value of imitation jewellery is a matter of a few pence. But he can go down town and see a good paste diamond worth £5 or £6, independent of its setting.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Not a diamond ?

Mr HUGHES:

– That statement is quite true. Does not the honorable member know that Australian garnets can be produced and sold by the bucket ? He does not know anything about them. Therefore these articles do compete with the better grade imitation jewels. If we put a reasonable duty on imitation jewels we shall reduce the difference between Australian precious stones and imitation stones, and it will lead people to buy the former.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.-I ask the Treasurer to give me an opportunity to move the deletion of the words “ and imitation jewellery “ in the first line, with a view to moving later the insertion of a new paragraph dealing with imitation jewellery and imitation precious stones.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Sinclair) proposed -

That the words “ and Imitation Jewellery “ be left out.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I hope that the Treasurer will accept the amendment, which I think will be a useful one and meet the views of a large number of honorable members.

Sir William Lyne:

– If imitation jewellery is omitted from this item I shall move the insertion of the article as a separate item, subject to duties of 40 and 35 per cent.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Sinclair) agreed to-

That the words “Imitation Precious Stones” be left out.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the word “materials” the words “ and all articles, n.e.i., partly or wholly made of gold or silver, including gold and silver lace,” be inserted.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) pro posed -

That the following new item be inserted : - “ 334A. On and after 7th December, 1907 - Imitation Jewellery, n.e.i., and Imitation Precious Stones, ad val. (General Tariff), 40 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 35 per cent.”

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

.- I protest that this arrangement will not have the effect of bringing info use the cheaper precious stones. A duty of 40 per cent. on imitation precious stones amounts to practically nothing, as they are worth only a few pence each. But if they were subjected to a duty of so much per carat it would prohibit their importation to a great extent and force into use the smaller diamonds, garnets, sapphires, rubies and so forth which we can produce, and which are of a fairly low value. I consider that if a definite attempt were made to bring into use our cheaper precious stones it might induce a cutter to set up an establishment in Australia. One of the greatest troubles to the miner who has precious stones is that there is no local buyer. They have all to be sent to the London or German market to be cut, and then they are returned to Australia. I believe that an almost prohibitive duty on imitation precious stones would lead to a decided increase in the use of our lower-priced precious stones.

Proposed new item agreed to.

Item 335 (All articles partly or wholly made up of gold or silver, unless dutiable at a higher rate, or specified or included under the head of jewellery’ elsewhere) negatived.

Item 336. Bullion and Coin ; Gold and Silver Bar Ingot and Sheet ; Cameos, Intaglios, and Precious Stones, unset, including Pearl’s, Coral, and Doublets ; Gold and Silver Wire for Embroidery Bullion, Purl, free.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I ask the Treasurer to consider whether the articles embraced in this item ought to be free? Can we not produce in Australia bullion and coin and gold and silver bar? If so, why should those articles be made free?

Item agreed to.

Item 337. Watches,’ Clocks, and Chronometers, n.e.i., and parts thereof; Time Registers and Detectors ; Opera, Field, and Marine Glasses; Pedometers; and Pocket Counters and the. like, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In this item we are asked to give to British imports a preference of 10 per cent, as against cheap Swiss watches. I am told that there is no serious competition between Swiss and British watches, and that this duty will be a heavy tax on the poorer classes. In my opinion we ought to make the preference a little less than is proposed. Therefore, with a view to allowing the 20 per cent, in the preferential column to stand, I move -

That after the words “30 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.,” be inserted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

. -I hold in my hand letters from four of, I believe, the leading firms in England, complimenting the Government and the Parliament upon the preference which has been offered in this Tariff to British imports. William Ehrhardt Limited, of Birmingham, the Lancashire Watch Company. Limited, of Prescot, Henry Williamson, “of London, and Rotherham and Sons, of Coventry, have written long letters in which they approve of the action of the Parliament, and thank the Government for proposing this preference to British watches.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I went to Rotherham and Sons to get a gold watch which had been presented to me many years before, and which bore the name of that firm, made into a stem-winding watch, but I found that they had only a fitting establishment in England, and that the bulk of the works of their watches were made in Switzerland. It has only been within the last two or three years that any large firms for the making of cheap watches for the multitude have been established in Great Britain. This duty will have the effect of raising the value of cheap watches by two or three shillings each. A watch that will keep good time for many years can- be bought in London at from 3s. to 5s.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not know, why the preference has been made so much in this case end only 5 per cent. in other cases. It has gone forth to the world that we were giving a particular preference, and.no doubt some of the British firms have based their calculations thereon. Unless there is strong reason for departing from it, it seems to me that it would be wiser not to do so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We have departed from it dozens of times.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not think we have cut down the preference.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes; on scores of items.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In some cases we have wiped out the preference, but that, I think, was done because the opposing sides were really fighting as to the amount of the general duty. I think that, as far as possible, we ought to maintain the preference which British people have been led to understand was being offered to them. Of course, the Committee is not responsible for the offer of the Government, but if it goes back upon that offer it will not produce the most favorable impression in the Old Country. We ought not to depart from the offer except in special circum- stances

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am informed that the Swiss manufacturers have a monopoly of the manufacture of the cheaper sorts of watches. My informant says that the bulk - in fact, nearly all of them - are made in Switzerland for Great Britain, and distributed from the latter country.

Mr Harper:

– And in America also. I have a dollar watch which keeps excellent time.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Clocks come from America in large numbers.

Mr Harper:

– And watches also.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am told that the Swiss have a traditionary skill in this trade, just as the British have in producing some sorts of cutlery. It has been developed through centuries.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– I should like to reply to the honorable member for Grampians in reference to the Rotherham Watch Company. I think he has been misinformed. I am told that every particle of the watches turned out by the Rotherham Company are made in Coventry. For that reason alone, I think that we should give a preference against the American watches. The English companies are now putting up expensive machinery to enable them to compete against the American watch trade. As the honorable member for Parramatta is constantly vaunting his desire for preference to the Mother Country, I appeal to him to agree to a preference of 10 per cent. in favour of English manufacturers in this line.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the honorable member undertake to vote with me on all preference amendments if I do?

Mr PAGE:

– No, I cannot; but I will undertake to vote for preference to the Old Country as often as I possibly can.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I have here a’ watch manufactured by Rotherham and Sons, London. It is a watch of a pattern well known in Australia. I had the greatest difficulty, when I was in London, in finding their establishment. I discovered it after great trouble, and I asked them whether they could convert my watch into a stem- winding watch. They said they could, but that it would take them a little while. I asked them how long, and they said a month or six weeks. They could not do it in less time, because they had to get some of their parts from, or send it to, Switzerland.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Perhaps it would be well for me to read to the Committee part of a letter received by the Customs from Rotherham and Sons, London and Coventry. They say -

I am writing onbehalf of my firm - the watch manufacturing firm of Rotherham and Sons - to express a wish that we may record how much we appreciate the sympathy of your Government in granting a preferential Tariff which extends to English watches ; and I may add that this is also appreciated by our work people to an extent that could not have existed a few years ago. We hope that in the best interests of English manufacture, watches to gain the preference will have to be certified as English, both in movement and case, as there is a tendency amongst some makers of cheap goods to use foreign cases, a proceeding that is quite unnecessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Item agreed to.

Item 338. Watch and Clock Main and Hair Springs; Compasses of all kinds except for external wear ; Ships’ Chronometers, Patent Logs, and Sounding Machines; Microscopes; Telescopes ; Barometers and Thermometers exceptadvertising ad. val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the word “ wear,” line 3, the words “ and except those of gold or silver or mounted in gold or silver,” be inserted.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item ‘339. Kinematographs, including sensitized and exposed films ; Kinetoscopes, Phonographs, Graphophones, Gramophones, including accessories, n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the word “ Kinematographs “ the word “Bioscopes” be inserted.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I move - :

That the words “ Phonographs, Graphophones, Gramophones, including accessories,” be left out.

If this amendment be carried, I shall move that talking-machines, phonographs, commercial or business, graphophones. gramophones, including all accessories, be free.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not know whether it will affect the amendment of ‘ the. honorable member, but I had intended’ to propose the addition of the words “ matrices for the manufacture in Australia of phonograph, graphophone, and gramophone records, free.”

Mr MAHON:

– I apprehend that verylittle argument will be required to recommend my amendment to the CommitteeThe object is, of course, to put talking machines, including gramophones, graphophones, and phonographs on the free list. The phonograph is now largely used in commerce. I need not explain its operation. Seeing that these goods cannot be manufactured in Australia ‘ under presentcircumstances, the advisableness of not imposing a duty on them should be obvious.. The Treasurer must be perfectly aware,, also, that it is impossible to produce the records in Australia, because the artistsr whose songs and music it is desired to be produced live for the most part atthe other side of the world. Even supposing that” these goods were manufactured -in Australia, it would be necessary to pay a royalty on them, because the instruments are the subject of patents. I do not think that I need elaborate the point, but if the Committee wish I will enter into arguments in support of the contentions fully stated in the petition presented to the House from those engaged in the trade.

Mr Hughes:

– The duty was 20 per cent, under the old Tariff.

Mr MAHON:

– Yes; but at the time it was passed the trade was insignificant compared with what it is now. Nobody took any notice of the duty, and the 20 percent, was imposed for revenue ‘ purposes. Now, however, the imports have become of considerable volume.

Mr Salmon:

-Does the honorable member think that the records and instruments will become any cheaper if the duty is removed ?

Mr MAHON:

– Yes. . I am also certain that the price will be increased to the consumer by the amount of any duty we impose.

Mr Salmon:

– Will the price be reduced if we make the goods free?

Mr MAHON:

– I imagine that it will he reduced in time. At any rate, accordding to the Customs returns £60,000 worth? of these goods were imported last year. When we passed the 1902 Tariff, the imports were comparatively trifling.

Mr Hughes:

– Does the honorablemember’s amendment include kinematographs ?

Mr MAHON:

– No, only talking machines.

Mr King O’Malley:

– Cannot they be made in this country?

Sir William Lyne:

– Is there any reasonable prospect of their being made here?

Mr MAHON:

– I am informed that there is not. In any case, it would be impossible to make the records here. The machines also are the subject of patents, and they are very complicated. If they were manufactured in Australia, it would be under great disadvantages, because, ss the Treasurer knows very well, the demand in Australia is so limited that it would never pay a company to manufacture such complicated machines here.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Oh, but we shall have 50,000,000 people here in a few years’ time !

Mr MAHON:

– There are many possibilities affecting the development of Australia, of course, but we are legislating for our own day and generation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not at all ; we are legislating for ever !

Mr MAHON:

– I hope the honorable member will be long here to legislate. I content myself with submitting the amendment.

Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Amendment (by Mr. Mahon) agreed to-

That the following new item be inserted : - “ 339A- O” and after 7th December, 1907 - Talking Machines, Graphophones, Gramophones, Phonographs, commercial or business, including all accessories, free,” be inserted.

What about the amendment which the Treasurer said he intended to move?

Sir William Lyne:

– The amendment carried at the honorable member’s instance obviates the necessity for it. Proposed new item agreed to.

Item 340 (Spectacle cases) agreed to.

Item 341. Spectacle Frames (not being partly or wholly of gold or silver, or gold or silver plated), with or without glasses (General Tariff), 10 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. “. Mr. CROUCH (Corio) [9.45].- If this item be passed without amendment, then gold and silver-rimmed spectacle frames will be dutiable under item 332 at 40 per cent. and. 35 per cent.

Mr-W.’H. Irvine.- Surely they are not ^ jewellery j …….

Mr CROUCH:

– That is the item under which they would come. I am glad to notice that common steel-rimmed spectacles are rapidly falling into disuse, and that even men and women in humble circumstances who need glasses are using superior spectacles with either gold or silver frames. Spectacles are not a luxury, and we should endeavour to make them available at a cheap rate. The people of Australia are recognising more than ever the necessity for carefully protecting the sight, and I think that good glasses should be brought within the reach of the poorest people in the community.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– If the honorable member will allow me, I have an amendment to propose which I think will meet his objection. I move -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, Spectacles and Spectacle Frames, not being gold, “and Glasses for Spectacles, ad val. (General Tariff), 10 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free,” be added.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

.- Even under the honorable member’s amendment the spectacle frames to which I refer would be dutiable at 40 per cent.

Mr Salmon:

– Cannot gold spectacle frames be made here?

Mr CROUCH:

– They are not made here. About four years ago Messrs. W. Wood and Company, of Howey-street, Melbourne, brought out two expert gold frame spectacle makers under a two years’, contract, which provided that they should each receive a salary of £6 per week. It was found, however, that it would be impossible to carry on the industry of making gold spectacle frames in Australia, unless with the assistance, of a duty of about 200 per cent. Four-dwt. spectacle frames, which can be. imported for 15s., cost £1 14s. 4d. to produce here, and as the result of this experience, one of the experts returned to England after his period .of service, had expired, and the other is now carrying on a small repairing business in Melbourne. Most of these frames are imported ‘from Germany, America, and France,’ and can be obtained there so cheaply that, as I have said, a duty of about 200 per cent, would be necessary to enable the industry to be successfully carried on in Australia. Under the Victorian Tariff gold-rimmed and silver-rimmed spectacles of all kinds were free, an attempt under an earlier Tariff to encourage the industry having failed.

I would ask the Minister to omit the words “ not being partly or wholly - of gold or silver.”

Sir William Lyne:

– I cannot do that.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– The honorable member is wrong as to the duties to which such spectacle frames would be liable. If the item be amended as proposed, they will be dutiable under item 334 at 30 per cent, and 25 per cent.

Mr CROUCH:

– Rolled gold spectacles would fall under item 332.

Mr Salmon:

– Rolled gold and silver frames are free, only standard gold frames being dutiable.

Mr CROUCH:

– In a letter to the press, a man in the trade wrote -

The preference in favour of the United Kingdom is an absolute farce. If it were raised to 20 per cent, it would not be effective in any of the lines mentioned. The Americans and Germans have succeeded in turning out superior goods at a much lower rate, and in the cheaper class of spectacles the Britisher does not attempt to compete, and I very much doubt whether a 50 per cent, preference would induce him to enter into competition.

Will the Minister give me his assurance that rolled gold spectacle ‘frames will be free?

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Rolled gold frames will be free.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Division XII. - Leather and Rubber.

Item 342. Boots, Shoes, Slippers, Clogs, Pattens, and other footwear (of any material), n.e.i.; and Boot and Shoe Uppers and Tops; Cork, Leather, or other Socks or Soles, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; . (United_ Kingdom), 30 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know whether the Minister is prepared to agree to these duties being reduced to 30 per cent, and 25 per cent.?

Sir William Lyne:

– That would mean that most of these goods would come in under a duty 5 per cent, less than that which prevailed under the old Tariff.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Treasurer re-enact the old duty in its entirety? If so, I will say no more.

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The reason I ask for this reduction is that I find that last year we imported only £173,000 worth of boots and shoes, although I daresay, that the total boot and shoe bill for Australia was at the very least £6,000,000 or

£7,000,000.

Mr Salmon:

– That would be equal to 30s. per annum per head of the population.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am sure that the honorable member will find that my estimate is not far out. These figures show that our own manufacturers have done very well under the old Tariff. They have practically driven importations out .of Australia, so that this increased duty is unnecessary. Will the Treasurer agree to the old rates?

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then I shall move to apply duties of 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, to both items. Surely the Minister will make some difference in regard to infants’ boots and shoes. In a communication which I have received from the chairman of the Bootmakers’ Association of New South Wales, a protectionist I think, he says in regard to infants’ shoes -

There are in Sydney, as far as I can trace, three very small manufacturers employing only a few hands. In Melbourne there are four unimportant manufacturers. Under the old Tariff these makers complained .they could not make it pay to manufacture, and under the new Tariff none of them have extended their factories, nor do they employ more hands. As a fact, it is within my knowledge that hands for this class of work are not to be got. In the first place, they require female machinists, and there is a dearth of that class of labour in the market, as not only the shoe trade but all other trades complain they cannot get sufficient labour of this class to carry on. Then, where male labour is employed men will not do the work, as it is too small, and, consequently, it will develop into a trade for women and boys if that class of labour can be obtained.

He asks that infants’ shoes be placed on the free list. The manufacture of these shoes does not pay, because other classes of business are much more profitable. I move -

That after the words “ 35 per cent.” the words ‘” and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.,” be inserted.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- The honorable member for Parramatta has shown that there is no good reason for increasing the duties on boots and shoes. Manufacturers have prospered under the old rates, the importations of boots and shoes being exceedingly small in comparison with the total number used in the Commonwealth. The bootmaking industry is not a new one. It is now settled on a firm basis. Therefore the proposal to reimpose the old rates will, I suppose, have the support of the Labour Party. Honorable members know very well that children who go barefooted to school are looked down upon by their fellows.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That is snobbery on the part of those who are wearing boots.

Mr LIDDELL:

– There is, of course, a school of physicians which claims that it is a good thing, in a climate like this, for children to go barefooted ; but class distinctions never will be abolished, and children who go barefooted to school are made to feel by the others that they are in a lower social position.

Mr Salmon:

– Does the honorable member know what aged child would- use a No. 6boot, infants’ size?

Mr LIDDELL:

– -No; but I know that the increase in these and other duties will make it very hard for some parents to make both ends meet. If a man who is in receipt of a small wage has his expenditure increased by 3s. or 4s. a week, he’ may be reduced from a position of comparative luxury to one of poverty.

Mr Salmon:

– A child wearing a No. 6 boot, infant’s size, is generally in the perambulator.

Mr Page:

– I have seen youngsters going barefooted to school in the Hunter electorate, and healthy kiddies they were, too.

Mr LIDDELL:

– That does not affect my argument. Children who go barefooted to school are looked down on by their fellows.

Mr Page:

– That is absurd. My children when going to school would not wear boots.

Mr LIDDELL:

– Not only the members of the Opposition, but the members of the Labour Party as well, should, in the interests of the workers whom they profess to represent, oppose any increase of duty on boots and shoes. Not long ago, when the New South Wales elections were on, the members of the Labour Party said that they would vote against any increase of duties on the necessaries of life, and surely in a country like this, boots and shoes are among the necessaries of life. The proposed increase should be voted against by all honorable members, no matter what their fiscal opinions.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

. -You, Mr. Chairman, having lived for many years in Western Queensland, . are aware that there are more children troop to school barefooted than wear boots. The children of rich and poor alike will not wear boots to school if they can avoid doing so. I could always afford to supply my youngsters with boots, but they used to plant them in the bush on their way to school, and then some one would come along and shake them. Let the members of the young Australia party say whether they have not done that sort of thing themselves when school children.

Mr Liddell:

– The honorable member did not bring his children up very well.

Mr PAGE:

– They have never caused me a moment’s- worry, and are a credit to me. The honorable member for Darling Downs will bear out my statement that Queensland children dislike wearing boots to school.

Mr Groom:

– I went barefooted mvself.

Mr PAGE:

– Things may be different in Melbourne, but in Queensland, it is the hardest thing in the world to get children to wear boots.

Mr Liddell:

– Going without boots is only, a fashionable fad.

Mr PAGE:

– If the honorable member were in Queensland, he would be only too ready to adopt the fashion of wearing as few clothes as possible.

Mr Liddell:

– The honorable member is talking about the tropical districts.

Mr PAGE:

– I am talking about the subtropical districts. The honorable member knows nothing about any place outside the Hunter electorate. If he travelled more, he would not be as one-eyed as some of the Victorian protectionists. At Mungundi, on the New South Wales border, a few hundred miles north of Maitland, I have seen children going to school barefooted. The stock in Western Queensland are not degenerating, even though the youngsters do not wear boots when going to school. They are equal to sample. I have lived there thirty years, and am not, I think, a bad sample. The honorable member for Moreton is another good type of Queenslander, and I think he would corroborate my statement that youngsters go to school in that State barefooted, and are not looked down upon on that account. . In the circumstances, the honorable member for Hunter, in pleading for the youngsters who have to go to school barefooted, is barking up the wrong tree.

Mr COON:
Batman

.- The honorable member for ‘ Parramatta has made a statement which I wish to correct. He referred to a letter in which it was stated that a leading boot and shoe manufacturer in New South Wales had expressed the opinion that it was not likely that factories for the manufacture of infants’ boots would be established in Victoria or any other State.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The honorable member is wrong. The statement was made that there are four factories.

Mr COON:

– The statement was made that no increase in the number was likely. Let me tell honorable members opposite that, since the present duty was imposed, the number of hands in one factory alone in this State has been increased by 25 per cent.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– How manywere working there before?

Mr COON:

– They had five. The increase in the number of hands in another factory has been over 100 per) cent. More than that, they have reduced the price of children’s boots. The honorable member for Hunter spoke of children having to go to school without boots. The price of sizes 4 to 6 of boots such as these I have here were sold under the old Tariff at is. 8d. per pair, and we have reduced the price to 1s. 6d. per pair. . These boots are made of Australian leather, under Australian conditions, and are competing successfully against the products of sweated labour in other countries, where the employes have to work every day in the week, in some cases, including Sundays. We pay in this industry 25s. a week to a girl who would get only 8s. or 9s. a week in the Old Country. Yet we have reduced the price under the present protective Tariff to the extent of 2d. per pair in these small sizes. Why, then, should the duty be taken off?

Mr Liddell:

– If those boots are examined, they will probably be found to be made mostly of brown paper.

Mr COON:

– I challenge the honorable member to examine the boots I have here. If he compares them with imported’ boots, he will find them superior. When the honorable member talks about brown paper, let me tell him that only a short time ago a gentleman waited on the Minister of Trade and Customs to ask him to allow infants’ boots to come in at a low rate because the insoles were made of cardboard. I was approached in connexion with the matter, and refused to have anything to do with it. The Australian-made boots I have here are made entirely of leather. The duty should be maintained, and, as a result, a number of men and girls will receive employment. There is no justification for a reduction of the duty, and the honorable member for Parramatta has not given a single reason why it should be reduced, whilst I have shown that under the present protection the prices of these boots have been reduced. In every line the prices of these sizes have been reduced in some cases by1d. per pair and in others by 2d. per pair. The price charged for one line of these boots is 17s. per dozen, whilst the imported price for the same article is 18s. per dozen. The price for another line is11s. per dozen, and the imported price 12s., and in connexion with another line I have here the price, as I have already said, has been reduced from1s. 8d. to1s. 6d. per pair. The honorable member for Parramatta comes from a State where those engaged in this industry have asked for the highest protection. They have asked for a duty of as high as 50 per cent. If I did not advocate the claim of New South Wales manufacturers when they ask for an increased duty, I should be told that as it was not a Victorian industry, I would not stand up for it. That is one of the reasons why I have stood up for it tonight.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member for Batman is like a travelling pedlar. First of all he brings a china cup into the chamber and flourishes it before the eyes of honorable members. Now he is hawking babies’ boots about. I wonder Where the honorable member picks these things up. He seems to be a veritable depository of all the nicks and nacks. to be found in Australia. I am sure he must feel the responsibility of his position very keenly. He feels, no doubt, that he is the embodiment of the protectionist sentiment of Australia, and that he is performing a very solemn and sacred duty.

Mr Coon:

– Let the honorable member give some reason against the duty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I intend to do so, and I shall not give my own reasons. I prefer to give the. reasons of a man who is the chairman of a’ great association in New South Wales, and who has been in this business all his life. Of course, he does not know half as much about the subject as does the honorable member for Batman, who, I suppose, has never worked in a boot shop in his life, and therefore knows all about it.

Mr Coon:

– I had ten years’ experience in the boot trade.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am sure I do not know what the honorable member has not done. He told us the other day that he has worked in mines. His biography, if written, should prove interesting reading. I guarantee that if he was in the boot factory to which he has. referred at all, it was the first time he was ever in a boot factory. I might as well tell the honorable member that the writer of the letter to which I have referred, is Mr. Joseph Vickery, of Sydney, a man who has been manufacturing boots all his life. The letter continues -

Then, as to felt slippers, there is only a rise of 5 per cent., but this duty should be reduced as low as possible as these are the cheap goods that are made in Lancashire by non-sweated labour, made next to the mills where the material is manufactured. This class of work it would be impossible to make in this country, the material not being available nor the labour.

Another point I wish to put before you. In taxing these lines of infants’ shoes and slippers you are taxing the little children and the working classes, as the goods that are imported are for labouring people in nearly all cases, and adding the duty on the imported price simply means adding considerably to the price of the article for the working man.

To sum up, the extra duties do not apparently benefit the Australian manufacturers, and, without doubt, they do seriously affect the Australian consumer of limited means.

It is signed “ JosephVickery, Chairman.” The Treasurer knows him well.

Sir William Lyne:

-I do not know whom the honorable member means.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Surely the honosable member remembers the Honorable Ebenezer Vickery?

Sir William Lyne:

– He is not alive.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No; but his sons are. This son. Joseph Vickery, is carrying on the business.

Sir William Lyne:

– The Vickerys are the rankest of free-traders. Old Vickery was a red-hot one.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Treasurer is, I think, misstating the facts, or he does not know anything about it.

Sir William Lyne:

– That is not so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

- Mr. Joseph Vickery is, I believe, protectionist. He has been in the business all his life, and he makes that statement as chairman of the Boot Warehousemen’s Association of New South Wale’s.

Sir William Lyne:

– Did the honorable member ask Mr. Jackson, the great bootmaker in Sydney, who has retired, what he thought about it ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I did not ; but as he has retired I suppose the honorable member thinks that he knows more about it than does a man who is actively engaged in the business.

Sir William Lyne:

Mr. Jackson is very strongly in favour of high protection for boots. Let us get on.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I want to have this duty restored to its old level. The holding up of a small pair of boots in this chamber bears no relation whatever to the millions and millions of pairs that are consumed every year by the working people of Australia.

Mr Coon:

– You can buy a pair of working boots now for as.11d.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Here is a protectionist advocating 2s.11d. boots ! He is going to give good wages’ out of 2s.11d. boots, and sound, solid leather boots into the bargain ! We ask only for a small reduction of the duty, and only a small increase has been proposed by the Treasurer ; but I have quoted an authoritative statement that an increase in duty will do no good to the manufacturers - they do not want it, as they had a virtual monopoly of the Australian market under the old duties - but will simply make boots dearer to the public. We ought, therefore, to let well alone.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- The honorable member for Batman exhibited a pair of boots which he said were made in Australia, after stating that if the imported boots were examined it would be found that they were composed partly of paper. I have taken the trouble to examine very carefully the boots exhibited by the honorable member, and out of one small boot I have taken quite a handful of paper. On the surface there is a material which is made to imitate the finest white kid. but which after all is only paper. Below that again I find paper with printing on if - something about a company and a catalogue - and then again layerafter layer ofpaper, and vet the honorable member for Batman says that. those boots are made entirely of leather.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– The soles are of solid leather. Every pair of boots of that kind is made in the same way.

Question - That after the words “ 35 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.” be inserted (Mr. Joseph Cook’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 11

NOES: 28

Majority … … 17

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

. -I desire to know whether I shall be in order in moving an all-round duty of 30 per cent. ?

Sir William Lyne:

– I shall object to such a duty, because large quantities of these goods come from Great Britain, and I desire to give a preference to the Old Country.

Mr.JOSEPH COOK.- What the Treasurer desires is a duty against the Old Country - it is a miserable sham preference !

Item agreed to.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.-I move -

That the following new item be- inserted : - “ 342A. On and after 7th December, 1907,

Children’s Boots and Shoes, sizes0 to 12, ad val., 15 per cent.”

Personally, I think that my proposal is a fair compromise.

Mr Salmon:

– The proposed duty is lower than that in the old Tariff, which” only went as far as size 6.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– Honorable members will observe that the duties on adults’ boots are 35 per cent. and 30 per cent. We desire an increase of population; and people who have large families ‘feel the boot bill very severely.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I cannot think that honorable members are aware of what is proposed.’ I quoted just now, when only a few members were in the chamber, a’ letter from the Chairman of the Association of Manufacturers of Boots and Shoes, pointing out that no infants’ boots are being made in Australia. The only exception is that related by the honorable member for Batman, who has found in Melbourne a factory . employing five hands. In order to protect an industry employing five hands in Melbourne, it is proposed to tax all the infants’ boots and shoes throughout the Commonwealth. I say that this is protection run stark mad.

Proposed new item negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Sinclair) proposed -

That the following new item be inserted : - “ 342A. On and after 7th December, 1907.

Infants’ Boots and Shoes, sizes0 to 6, ad val., 15 per cent.”

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I would suggest that an all-round duty should be imposed upon footwear. That was the. principal request urged by those interested in the boot industry who appeared before the Tariff Commission. No differentiation should be made in favour of infants’ boots and shoes, which are made of the poorest material. As amatter of fact, these boots are sold at from 6d. to 7d. per pair, and a duty of 30 per cent, upon such goods would not amount to much.

Mr McWilliams:

– Does the honorable member think that he can buy infants’ boots for 6d. per pair?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Those interested in the industry desire that the same rate shall be levied upon all classes of boots and shoes - infants’ and adults’ alike. Under the old Tariff, which imposed a dutv of 15 per cent., the outside competition was so great that the Australian market was swamped, and prices were reduced to such a low level that our local manufacturers could not successfully compete.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 15

NOES: 22

Majority … … 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Proposed new item negatived.

Item 343 (Goloshes, Rubber Sand Boots and Shoes and Plimsolls) ; item 344 (Slipper Forms and Royal Cord in the piece; Prunella, Lasting, and Stuff for Boots, Shoes and Slippers); and item 345 (Boots, Rubber, namely, Gum and Wading boots) agreed to.

Item 346. Rubber and other Hose, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; , (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- In this case, the A section of the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 20 per cent., and the B section a duty of 15 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– The preference is only 5 per cent.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Inmy opinion, we ought to fix the duty at 20 per cent, in the general Tariff, and at 15 per cent, in the preferential Tariff. Therefore, I move -

That after the words “25 per cent.” the words “and on and after7th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 20 . per cent.,” be inserted.

Question put. The Committee divided..

AYES: 12

NOES: 24

Majority … … 12

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Item agreed to.

Item 347. Rubber Manufactures, n.e.i., and Articles, n.e.i., in which Rubber forms a part; including Air and Water Beds; Air Cushions and Pillows; Surgical Tubing, Bandages, Elastic

Stockings, Leggings, Knee Caps, Thighpieces and Wristlets; Hat-makers’ Press Bags and Rings ; Gas Bags ; Soles, Pads, and Heels ; Cash Mats ; Rubbered Tyre Fabric ; Tyre Rubber; Tyres, not accompanying Cycles or Vehicles ; Tubes, valved or unvalved ; Rubber Stoppers or Corks; Reclaimed Rubber, ad val. (General Tariff),- 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- In this item I find several articles which, in my opinion, ought to be excised.

Sir William Lyne:

– I intend to propose that several articles be made free.

Mr JOHNSON:

– If the honorable gentleman is going to do that, it will be all right.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I propose to ask the Committee to delete air and water beds, and air cushions and pillows, and later on to submit another proposal. I move -

That the words “Air and Water Beds: Air Cushions and Pillows,” be left out.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I ask the Treasurer to agree to the omission of surgical tubing, bandages, elastic stockings, leggings, knee caps, thigh pieces and wristlets. These are all surgical articles which are used by invalids and sick persons, and which I venture to suggest ought not to be taxed. Hospital furniture has been allowed to come in at a lesser rate than other furniture, and these articles may fairly be described as hospital furniture.

Sir William Lyne:

– If the honorable member will allow my amendment to be made, his suggestion can be dealt with afterwards. >

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– I hope that the Treasurer will not consent to the omission of the articles which have just been mentioned by the honorable member for Nepean.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- If Australia is able to manufacture rubber and other hose, it appears to me that it ought to be possible to manufacture rubber sheeting and pillows. I should think that the difficulty of making such articles would be much less than that of making hose. The- Minister might have given reasons for his amendment.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The reason supplied to me is that these goods are extensively used by invalids.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does not the same remark apply to surgical bandages?

Amendment agreed to.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I do not see why we should not also leave out surgical tubing, bandages, elastic stockings, leggings, knee caps, thigh pieces, and wristlets. The Treasurer’s reason for leaving out air and water beds, air cushions and pillows applies just as strongly to these articles - namely, that they are used by invalids.

Sir William Lyne:

– I will not agree to leave out anything but surgical tubing.

Mr BOWDEN:

– Then I move-

That the words “ Surgical Tubing “ be leftout.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I wish to point out that these surgical appliances are being “ manufactured in Melbourne at very reasonable prices. I know from experience that elastic stockings,, leggings, thigh pieces, and wristlets of excellent quality and low price are being; locally made. What is proposed is simply an increase of 5 per cent, over the old duty. I have had reason to purchase some of these goods for my own patients lately, and I found that the price was much lessthan I had to pay some years ago.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- It is all very well to say that rubber bandages are cheaper to-day than they were a few years ago; but I have letters from twoleading firms, one in Sydney and another in Melbourne, which throw a different light on the question. I point out that these letters are not of the character of those with which we have been deluged during: the past few weeks. They were sent in reply to inquiries made by me, because I wished to inform myself on the subject. The writers did not approach me in the first instance ; I approached them. Consequently, I place more value upon themthan I do upon letters such as have been sent to every member of Parliament. One of the leading firms of surgical instrumentdealers, Messrs. Denver Brothers, Melbourne, write to me -

Nowthat the new Tariff is before the Housefor discussion, we desire to bring prominentlyunder your notice, and through you to the members of the Commonwealth Parliament, certain articles which are classed ns dutiable, which incur opinion should for suffering humanity’s; sake be admitted duly free.

Mr Storrer:

– Do they always think of that when they are selling these goods?”

Mr Maloney:

– No, they do not !

Mr LIDDELL:

– I think, that people inthis line of business do make considerable reductions when selling their goods to hospitals.

Mr Maloney:

– They make a very good profit.

Mr LIDDELL:

– Honorable members must not forget that there is a very small sale for articles of this description. They are not bought as we buy boots and clothing: The demand being limited, they are naturally expensive. It would not pay any one to set up a large factory for the manufacture of such articles. As the output is so small, of necessity the dealers are compelled to import them. Take the case of elastic stockings and knee caps. We know that they are articles which must of necessity be of good quality, or they are absolutely useless. The man who buys elastic stockings which are not well made, and of the best material, might as well throw his money into the sea.

Mr Maloney:

– Newly-made stockings of that kind are better than are those which come from Europe, and which must suffer by passing through the tropics.

Mr LIDDELL:

– The voyage in the present day does not take long, and the goods in question might, if necessary, be placed in cool chambers. Silk elastic hosiery, in the opinion of the trade, should be free. I have here a letter from a Sydney firm - Messrs. Potter and Birks, of Macquarie-street, who write -

We cannot see that imposing duties upon the lines in question would lead to any increase of employment in Australia, as the constant changes and improvements that are taking place in modern surgery would not justify any firm in attempting to manufacture locally, and moreover, what would be the raw products_ to a firm wishing to manufacture in Australia are also subject to duties, viz., cotton, glassware, &c.

I appeal to the Treasurer to agree to the removal of the duty on bandages, elastic stockings, leggings, knee caps, thigh-pieces, and wristlets. He has already agreed to allow surgical tubing, which is nothing more nor less than gas tubing, to come in free, but it is far more essential that the goods I have named should be placed on the free list.

Sir William Lyne:

– What are elastic knee caps?

Mr LIDDELL:

– They are made of elastic interwoven with silk, and are very useful for such diseases as housemaid’s knee. I would urge honorable members generally to support” me in’ this Request, and am satisfied that the. honorable member for

Laanecoorie, although he is an ardent protectionist, will agree with me that these goods should be placed on the free list.

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

– I approve of the proposal of the Treasurer to omit the words “ surgical tubing,” but I am assured on the very best authority that the other surgical goods mentioned in the item can, and have been, made in Australia, and that as a matter of fact they are sold at a lower price than is charged for them by those who have approached the honorable member.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Are they really manufactured here?

Mr SALMON:

– I am assured that the whole process of manufacture is carried out in Australia. Since the firms which import them charge exorbitant prices - prices out of all proportion to their initial cost - I do not feel inclined .to help them in this matter. I have it on good authority that rubber manufacturers in the Commonwealth, whom we have assisted very materially by the imposition of protective duties, have taken up a class of manufacture which has taken the place of certain importations which have been stopped at the Customs House. Certain goods of an illicit character, which are sold by chemists and other dealers for purposes which Australia at all events should endeavour as far as possible to minimize, are now being manufactured by rubber-makers in the Commonwealth. A great deal has been done by the Customs Department to prevent the importation of such goods, and I am very grieved to find that manufacturers whom we have protected are now taking up their production.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Let us vote.

Mr SALMON:

– I am sure that the honorable member does not grasp the importance of the matter with which I am now dealing.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do, and I agree with the honorable member.

Mr SALMON:

– I wish to let these manufacturers know ‘that so long as I am a member of this Parliament I shall devote the closest scrutiny to the manufacture of such goods, and .’that I am prepared, if they continue the methods said to have been recently adopted bv them; to bring the matter before the House with a view to action being taken.

Mr Page:

– This is the fault of the Treasurer, who has given the manufacturers close protection.

Mr Liddell:

– It is not the only evil result of protection.

Mr SALMON:

– I felt it incumbent on me to make this statement, in order that it may reach the ears of those who may need the warning. ‘

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- The honorable member for Laanecoorie has spoken about the excessive cost of these articles, and yet wishes the Committee to impose a duty which will practically establish a local monopoly enabling makers to still further increase their. charges. The best way to prevent overcharging is to create the freest competition. If there is any force in the arguments of the honorable member for Laanecoorie, these goods should be on the free list.

Mr Salmon:

– The exorbitant prices I have spoken of were charged when they were on the free list. They were made free under the Victorian Tariff, and on a motion moved by me in the State Parliament.

Mr JOHNSON:

– For years the price of rubber was very high, and consequently all articles, manufactured of rubber were dear, but of late there has been a drop in rubber, and, as a result, a cheapening of rubber goods.

Mr Salmon:

– The price is out of all proportion to the cost of the rubber.

Mr JOHNSON:

– The imposition of a heavy duty will not cure the evil.’

Mr Salmon:

– These things are cheaper now.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Thev are cheaper everywhere now, because of the reduced price of rubber. I know that honorable members are anxious to get through with the Tariff. We could finish in a night if we let the Treasurer’ and his supporters have their way ; but I am not prepared to do that. I am pledged to my constituents to try to secure the reduction of duties, and I shall do what I can to carry out my promise.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I move -

That the words “Bandages, Elastic Stockings, Leggings, Knee Caps, Thigh-pieces, and Wristlets,” be left out.

I move this amendment with the object of having these goods placed on the free list. ‘ In the interests of humanity, the Committee should agree to my proposal.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– There is too much talk about the interests of humanity, the result of which is that the Tariff is being whittled away piecemeal. The india rubber trade of Australia is progressing, and we do not wish it to fall back. I hope that the Treasurer will not give way to the Opposition any more.

Amendment negatived.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- In the last Tariff we differentiated to the extent of 5 per cent, in the duties on valved and unvalved .tubes, in order to provide that the tubes should be finished here. That was done at my instigation, and, as I see both are now included in the same item, I should like to know the reason for the change.

Sir William Lyne:

– I think they are all’ made here now.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the words “ Reclaimed Rubber “ be left out.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- With a view to subsequently moving that the duty on imports from the United Kingdom shall be 15 per cent., I move -

That after the words “‘25 per cent.” the words “and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad. val. (General Tariff). 20 per cent.,” be inserted.

I hope the Treasurer will accept the amendment, and, if we carry proportionate duties on the items lower down, we shall be able to get through the Division in no time.

Sir William Lyne:

– I cannot accept the amendment.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Then it is necessary that I should point out that under the old Tariff the goods included in this item were dutiable at 15 per cent., and the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission is that the duty should b’e 20 per cent., which is what I have just proposed. If we have in the preference column a duty equal to that imposed under the old Tariff, and under the General Tariff impose a duty in accordance with the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, that should satisfy the Treasurer. The insurance and other import charges added to the duties I propose should provide ample protection for the local producers of these goods.

Sir William Lyne:

– This is carrying out the arrangement made by the Opposition to get through the Division as soon as possible.

Mr JOHNSON:

– As soon as possible, consistently with doing what is right.

Sir William Lyne:

– I can assure the honorable member that I cannot accept his amendment. He should let it go to a division, and I shall be prepared to accept the decision of the Committee.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Then, I suppose I shall have to let it go to a division. I suppose I have suffered as much as any member of the Committee. I have had to stick at the business very closely, though I have been suffering for hours daily from a splitting headache, and feel very ill through having to breathe the poisonous atmosphere of the House; but I shall let it go to a division, chiefly out of consideration for the officers and pressmen who are compelled to remain in connexion with the business of the House.

Amendment negatived.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I think that I should here move the insertion of a new paragraph to cover air and water beds,, air cushions and pillows, and surgical tubing. If they are not dealt with separately, they will be dutiable under rubber manufactures n.e.i. I do not care what course is adopted, so long as they are specially mentioned and admitted free.

Sir William Lyne:

– They will be dealt with in a special item.

Item 348. Rubber and Rubber Manufactures, viz. : -

Indiarubber, crude or powdered ; Rubber Waste ; Hard Rubber, in sheets ; Rubber Thread ; Boot and Apparel Elastics ; Masticated Rubber ; India-rubber Syringes, Enemas, Injection Bottle, Urinals, free.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I should like to remind the Treasurer that hard rubber in sheets is largely manufactured here, and I think that it is a mistake to include it in this item. I see no reason why hard rubber sheets should be admitted free. The Opposition are most persistent when they want anything, but if any one else makes a proposal they are up in arms at once. It is a good job that they are not in a majority.

Sir William Lyne:

– It is not at all fair to keep us here so long. I will attend to anything for the honorable member if he will speak to me about it.

Mr MATHEWS:

– The treatment I have received is not fair, and I feel it very much.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That after the word “ powdered “ the words “ and reclaimed “ be inserted.

This was struck out of the previous item, and I wish to insert it here to make sure that it does not fall under another item at a higher rate.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I do not know whether rubber in sheets, of which the honorable member spoke, is manufactured here to any great extent.

Mr Mathews:

– The proprietors of the establishment assure me that they do make it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– If the honorable member will see me, I will ascertain what I can do. I move -

That the word “ bottles “ be inserted in lieu of “ bottle,” and that the words “ and Air and Water Beds, Air Cushions and Pillows, and Surgical Tubing,” be inserted after the word “urinals.”

Amendments agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 349. Leather Manufactures, n.e.i. ; Leather cut into shape; Harness, Razor Strops: and Whips, including Keepers, Thongs, and Lashes, ad val., 25 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Treasurer should at least allow a preference on harness and razor strops. I move -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.,” be added.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

.- Does the Treasurer agree to a preferential rate of 20 per cent. ? That would reduce the duty to what it was previously.

Sir William Lyne:

– I have hot agreed to it.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 9

NOES: 18

Majority … … 9

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Item agreed to.

Item350-

  1. Leather, Rubber, and Composition Belting and Green Hide for Belting and other purposes, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.
  2. Leather, n.e.i., including Chamois Leather and unspecified articles used in the manufacture of Boots and Shoes, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.
Sir JOHN QUICK:
Pendigo

– I desire to suggest a slight reduction or modification in the duty on leathers.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– A reduction? Nonsense !

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– With reference to leathers, I may say that it has been found that there is a deficiency in what is known as upper leather of a superior character, including kid, patent, enamel and. calf leathers.. The boot manufacturers and tanners have had a conference; and I understand, after a deputation to the Minister, have unanimously agreed that the proposed duty should be reduced.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not agree to a reduction.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I have a prior amendment. I desire to move an amendment in paragraph a to the effect thatafter the words “other purposes” the words “ and belt butts “. be inserted.

These belt butts are largely imported from Great Britain, and are used in a certain way. They are made in Australia; but I point out that if these belt butts are left n.e.i. they will be charged 30 per cent., and the result will be that they as raw material will be charged 5 per cent, more than the manufactured article. I move -

That after the words “ other purposes “ the words “ and Belt Butts “ be inserted.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– I suggest that the honorable member for Melbourne should embody his amendment in a new paragraph, and make these belt butts subject to duties of 20 and 15 per cent. I am told that there is one English: belt butt used to ninety-nine Australian belts ; but, at the same time, if is necessary to import a certain proportion of English manufacture.

Mr Maloney:

– I understand that the Treasurer desires to move . an amendment, and, under the circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw my amendment temporarily.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - .

That the words “and on and after 7th December, 1907, Leather, rubber, and composition belting, and greenhide for belting, and other purposes, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

  1. Leather, namely, kid and patent and enamelled leather, ad val. 20 per cent.
  2. Leather, viz., calf n.e.i., white sheep and white lamb, ad val., 15 per cent.
  3. Leather n.e.i., ad. val., 20 per cent.” be added.
Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The Treasurer has acted on the circular immediately.

Sir William Lyne:

– This amendment has been prepared . in the Department.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What a set of puppets ‘ the Government are ! Anybody outside can pull the strings !

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– This amendment was agreed on between, the manufacturers and the bootmakers.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- Here we have another instance of the Treasurer, without any knowledge of the purpose or effect of this proposal, introducing without notice, after midnight, an important amendment. The Committee have a right to resent being treated in this offhand manner. The circular referred, to by the honorable member for North Sydney has just been placed in the Treasurer’s hands. Sir William Lyne. - It is not the circular which has caused me to move the amendment.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Simply because somebody in the industry whispers a request, the Treasurer immediately asks the Committee to accept an amendment of this kind. I refuse to be a party to this sort of legislation. We are supposed to be a deliberative body ; and yet what are we asked to do? The Treasurer, whilst expressing anxiety to deal with these items as they appear in the schedule, has the temerity at the very last moment to submit absolutely new proposals. I should like to know what the proposed duty of 2d. per square foot means from an ad valorem stand-point.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– A little while ago I stated that the duties upon leather should be reduced, and the honorable member for Parramatta appeared to welcome my suggestion. But now that the Treasurer has actually proposed a reduction, his proposal is meeting with violent opposition.

Mr Johnson:

– He has not explained the nature of his proposal.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– At any rate, I intend to support it. The A section of the Tariff Commission recommended the imposition of a duty of 20 per cent, upon all kinds of leather. Since then fresh information has become available, from which it appears that there is a deficiency in certain classes of leather in Australia, such as kid, patent, and enamel leather, which are used for uppers in certain kinds of boots. There is also a deficiency in calf leathers known as white sheep and lamb leather.

Mr Watkins:

– Do we not grow the best sheep in the world?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– But the tanners have not yet entered upon the production of this class of leather. When the A section of the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 20 per cent upon all classes of leather, its members were under the impression that their recommendation met the requirements of the trade.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Where is kid leather being made in Australia?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Tn slight quantities, I understand that - it is being made in Richmond, Melbourne. Since the report of the A section of the Tariff Commission was drawn up the manufacturers of Victoria and South Australia have met in conference, and, in conjunction with the kid tanners, have waited as a deputation upon the Minister of Trade and Customs. Upon the 22nd August last, they urged that the duty upon calf should be reduced to 15 .per cent., and that 2d. per square foot should be levied upon kid leathers. I have been informed that the manufacturers and tanners in all the States concur in this proposition, and I fail to see why such a howl of indignation should emanate from . the free-trade members of the Committee, when a request is made to reduce the duties levied upon their raw materials.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– The Treasurer says that his proposal will involve an increase.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– It means a reduction in the case of calf leathers from 30 per cent, to 15 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If it cannot be produced here, why tax it at all?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– It is being produced here in limited quantities. I am endeavouring to facilitate importations for the sake of meeting the requirements of the trade. At the present time, no attempt is being made to produce these superior kids. I have been informed bv the honorable member for Batman that he was present at the deputation which waited upon the Minister of Trade and Customs, and I appeal to the latter to say. whether a request was not preferred for a reduction.

Mr Tudor:

– I was present.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– Then what is the reason of the honorable member’s opposition to my proposal ? I am not wedded to a fixed duty of 2d. per square foot - I have no objection to an ad valorem rate of, say, 10 per cent.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not mind admitting that the proposal of the honorable member for Bendigo came as a positive shock to me. I cannot yet realize that the Chairmanof the Tariff Commission has actually proposed a reduction of the duty upon the articles enumerated in paragraph a. I hope that it will be chronicled in our history, and that 100 years hence people will recollect that on the 7 th December, 1907, the honorable member proposed a reduction in a dutv. Does the honorable member for Batmanconcur in this proposal? Will the Sphinxspeak? It is of no use for the honorable member for Bendigo to make these proposals unless the honorable member for Batman concurs in them.

Sir John Quick:

– It is all right.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member proposes to reduce the duty on these articles because they aie not generally manufactured here/ He says that there are some manufactures of the kind going on.

Sir John Quick:

– On account of the small output of kid.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We were told a little while ago, on the authority of the honorable member for Batman, that there were five men and a boy making children’s boots, and therefore we decided to put duties of 30 and 35 per cent, on those articles.

Sir John Quick:

– Because there is plenty of raw material for making them ; but this other raw material is not available to the bootmakers.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Have we not the hides?

Sir John Quick:

– We have not the kid. I did not concur in these proposals until I was thoroughly convinced.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.I remind honorable members that the agriculturists who supply the skins need protection as well as any one else. I have received a copy of the circular from the bootmakers and tanners, who, I venture to think, are wonderfully kind persons. They suggest certain duties, and point put that it is not necessary to give any preference to Great Britain because the leathers which come from that country are only used by the bookbinders and upholsterers. Practically they say that they are not affected by those duties, and that therefore it is not necessary to give a preference to Great Britain.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Why should they? The honorable member would not give a preference to British saddlery just now.

Mr STORRER:

– I am willing to vote for the proposals of the Government as printe’d, but I shall not vote for anything of the kind which the Treasurer has foreshadowed. I believe in ad valorem duties, and I intend to adhere to that principle.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. “

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I move -

That after the words “25 per cent.,” paragraph A, the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, ad ‘val. (General Tariff), 20 per cent.,” be inserted.

Under a free-trade Tariff in New South Wales the manufacture of leather belting was extremely successful, and the trade grew. There is not the least occasion to increase the duty on the article. If it is increased it will only afford the manufacturers an opportunity to charge a higher price to the users.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I an. opposed , to the alteration of the duty on belting, because I believe that it has not too high a protection at the present time.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– In New South Wales the industry did excellently when there was no duty.

Mr TUDOR:

– Since the duty was placed on composition belting the manufacture of belting has increased here.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– How many persons are working at that tannery?

Mr TUDOR:

– I was present when the Minister of Trade and Customs received the deputation of boot manufacturers and master tanners, representing, I believe, all the States. I understand that the boot manufacturers of all the States have agreed to the amended proposals. In the majority of cases a fixed duty of 2d. per square foot on kid will be less than a duty of 15 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– I suggest to the honorable member that he should reserve his remarks until paragraph a has been dealt with.

Mr TUDOR:

– I oppose the decrease on the leather belting, and hope that the protective duty provided for in paragraph a will be maintained.

Question - That the words- proposed to be_insefted be so inserted - put. The “Committee divided.

Ayes … … … 12

Noes … … … 19

Majority … … 7

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

.- In the temporary absence of the honorable member for Melbourne, I move -

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, 3 50 a a Belt butts, ad val., 20 per cent.,” be inserted.

If this amendment is agreed to I shall move that the preferential rate of duty be 1 5 per cent.

Mr Mauger:

– What are belt butts?

Mr CROUCH:

– They are the raw material for the manufacture of belting, and it is absolutely necessary to import them,as they cannot be made here.

Mr Maloney:

– I think that if the suggestion made by the Treasurer is adopted, the case will be met.

Mr CROUCH:

– I can assure the honorable member that, having consulted the gentleman who has been advising him, I know that what I am proposing is the right thing.

Mr Storrer:

– Why study one individual?

Mr CROUCH:

– I am studying the interests of the whole of the tanners, leather manufacturers and employes in Australia. The matter affects a very large class.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Why should there be any more debate about the matter? Has not the honorable member for. Corio told us that he has consulted some gentleman, and has moved this amendment in consequence? What more is there to be said ? He having consulted a gentleman, there is an end of it.

Mr Crouch:

– We’ should have it discussed by a gentleman, does not the honorable member think?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– This Federal Parliament is not to -use its own judgment. It has not been doing so all through the discussion on the Tariff. Somebody consults a gentleman and proposes the duty. Ergo, the thing is done. That is what they call bullocking the Tariff through. Is the Treasurer satisfied ?

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then I suppose we must not exercise our reasoning faculties? The honorable member for Corio has consulted a gentleman.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I should be glad if the honorable ‘member for Corio would not press his amendment. I have an amendment to propose which may probably meet the object which he has in view.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed

That the words “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, a. Leather. Rubber, and Composition Belting and Greeahide for Belting and other purposes ad. val. (Genejral Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.

  1. Leather, namely, kid and patent and enamelled leather, ad val., 20 per cent.
  2. Leather, viz., calf n.e.i., white sheep, and white lamb, -ad val., 15 per cent.
  3. Leather n.e.i., ad val., 20 per cent.
Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

– In view of the fact that the Minister proposes to considerably reduce the duties on the raw material of the boot manufacturers, I should like to know whether he intends to re-commit the items relating to boots so that we may re-consider our decision with regard to them. My complaint against the honorable member for Bendigo . is that, although he had in his mind at the time a reduction of these duties, he as Chairman of the Tariff Commission pressed for high duties upon boots, giving us no information that these reductions were contemplated. Had the Committee known that such a reduction was to be proposed the vote on the boot items might have been different. In this case as in others the Treasurer at the last moment has sprung new proposals upon the Committee, and we have no opportunity to consider what their effect may be. I protest against such tactics. The boot manufacturers have the protection of high duties, and they should be prepared to do something for the tanners.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I should like to know.-

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the honorable member say how many hands are employed in the glace” kid tannery?

Mr TUDOR:

– Over 1,000 doz. glace kid skins were turned out last month, so I have been informed. The question has been asked whether the glace skin industry will be useful to those on the land. As a matter of fact, the skins have to be imported from India or Persia.

Mr Storrer:

– There is no land in Australia to run goats on !

Mr TUDOR:

– The tanners are willing to buy all the kid skins that can be produced here. The amendment moved by the Treasurer carries out proposals agreed to bv a combined deputation of manufacturers and master tanners, representing practically all parts of the Commonwealth, which waited on the Minister of Trade and Customs. The union operatives on the Wages Board were told that the employers could not pay higher wages because they had agreed to these reductions. As a matter of fact these are slightly lower duties than were originally ^proposed by the Government. The employers object to a preference being granted because the leather is not produced in England. I propose to refer briefly to the question of chamois leather gloves.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– They are to be made free.

Mr TUDOR:

– There is another paragraph, “ Crust or rough tanned goat skivers Persians and sheep, free,” which I understand is to be inserted. I do not think that this re-arrangement of the duties will be very harmful to the industry, and I regret that there was not an agreement on the part of employers and employes on behalf ot proposals of this kind before they were submitted to the Minister.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– I would urge the Treasurer to grant a slight preference to British imports. The difficulty under which tanners in Queensland labour is that the Japanese buy up the local hides and skins, and carry them off to Japan to be tanned.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– We need an export duty.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I was asked to urge the imposition of an export duty, but do not favour such a proposition. I appeal to the Treasurer to make the duties 30 per cent, and 20 per cent. I have some sympathy for the tanner as well as for the boot manufacturer, and I trust that my request will be acceded to.

Sir William Lyne:

– I cannot accede to it.

Mr EDWARDS:
Oxley

.The information which I have received from the leather manufacturers and tanners of Queensland is that the duties proposed originally were too high, and therefore I intend to support the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Maloney) agreed to-

That the words “ E. Belt Butts, ad val. (General Tariff), 20 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 15 per cent.” be added.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 351. Leather, viz. : -

  1. Pump Butts weighing not less than 48 lbs. each hide, free.
  2. Goat and Sheep Skins, raw, Hogskins, free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That paragraph A be left out.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Why are pump butts being taken out of the free list to be made dutiable at 30 and 25 per cent.?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– When pump butts were put on the free list they were not being manufactured here to the same extent ; but now they are being largely manufactured, and those locally made are as good as any that can be imported-.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the following words be added - “ and on and after 7th December, 1907, Chamois leather, free.”

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I hope that goats’ skins, kids’ skins, and hogskins in the raw will be ‘ allowed to remain free. Goat skins are imported chiefly from India and Persia. They are not cured or made into leather, but come here either slightly tanned or salted.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Tudor) agreed to -

That the following new item be inserted : - “ 351A. On and after 7th December, 1907, Crust or rough tanned goat, skivers, Persians, and sheep skins, free.”

Progress reported.

page 7169

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

Thai the House, at its rising, adjourn until ii a.m.,’ Monday next.

House adjourned at 12.57 a.m. (Saturday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 6 December 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19071206_reps_3_42/>.