House of Representatives
27 November 1907

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

PETITION
QUESTION
- WOMEN’S EXHIBITION RIFLE MATCHES
QUESTION
- TASMANIAN” MAILS
QUESTION
- DUTIES ON PAPER
QUESTION
- INTER-STATE TELEPHONE SERVICE: DECREASE OF REVENUE
QUESTION
- SEIZURE OF TREACLE AS OPIUM
QUESTION
- VIRUS FOR RAT DESTRUCTION
CHINESE HELMETS FOR POSTAL, OFFICALS
QUESTION
- TEMPORARY LETTER CARRIERS, WESTERN AUSTRALIA
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH. OFFICES IN LONDON
QUESTION
- SATURDAY SITTINGS
QUESTION
- TARIFF
QUESTION
- UNIFORM COMMONWEALTH STAMPS
QUESTION
- TELEGRAPH LINE BETWEEN SYDNEY AND BRISBANE
QUESTION
- ARGENTINE : IMPORTATION OF AUSTRALIAN CATTLE
TARIFF
- Honorable Members. - No
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m., and read prayers.

page 6673

PETITION

Mr. POYNTON presented a petition from farmers of Blackrock, Petersburg, and Orroroo, South Australia, praying for a modification of the duties relating to agricultural implements.

Petition received.

page 6673

QUESTION

WOMEN’S EXHIBITION RIFLE MATCHES

Mr SALMON:
LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether he is aware of the series of rifle matches at present being conducted at the Women’s Exhibition, in which women are showing such remarkable proficiency with the Francotte and Winchester rifles, that not a single shot had been fired off the target during two days, whilst in many cases the possible has been made; and whether, in view of these facts, he will give the women of Australia an opportunity of perfecting themselves in rifle-shooting?

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I shall be glad to do anything that will further the laudable end which the honorable member has in view. The questions of method will require very special considerations.

page 6673

QUESTION

TASMANIAN” MAILS

Mr STORRER:
BASS, TASMANIA

– I desire to ask the Postmaster-General, without notice’, a question relating to the delivery of Tasmanian mails to the members of this House. I may explain that members of Parliament have at various times encountered great difficulty in getting their letters. Last Saturday week I telephoned down to the General Post Office to inquire why our mails had not been delivered. I telephoned twice, but I did not get my letters until Monday, although they arrived in Melbourne at 9 o’clock on the Saturday morning. To-day, I suppose, the steamer arrived at her usual time - 9 o’clock thismorning. I tried to get a telephone message through to the General Post Office, -but could not succeed. The mail has not yet been delivered. I ask now, as I cannot get any % satisfaction . elsewhere - although I telephoned to the Deputy PostmasterGeneral - whether the PostmasterGeneral will take this matter in hand himself, and see that we, who are members of Parliament, are not placed at a. great disadvantage because we happen’ to meet in this place?

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– I have taken every pos- ‘sible step to facilitate the delivery of mails to honorable members. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, I have arranged for a box to be kept at the office, and for a messenger to go down to get mails every hour and bring them up to Parliament House.

Mr Storrer:

– Apparently he does not do it.

Mr MAUGER:

– That is not. my fault. I can only put the machinery in motion, and do my best to see that arrangements are carried out. I will confer with Mr. Speaker, and ascertain why the arrangement has not been observed. I will certainly do all that I can to afford every, possible facility to honorable members to get their letters.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I desire to say, in justice to the officer concerned, that I have just now asked the Serjeant-at-Arms whether the letters were sent for as usual to-day, and he tells me that they were.

DUPLICATION OF CUSTOMS DUTIES.

Mr GLYNN:
ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Minister of Trade- and Customs a question, without notice, whether he is aware of a duplication of Customs duties under which sardines are taxed at id. per lb., when imported in oil, whilst if they happen to be imported smoked, they are also taxed 1/2 d. per lb. as smoked fish? I wish to inquire whether the principle of duplication, which is certainly an anomaly in the case of sardines, runs throughout the Tariff?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– There are bound to be certain anomalies in connexion with a Tariff covering so many items, and I am glad to have such instances pointed out, so that I may take steps to remove them.

RABBIT EXTERMINATION.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I desire to ask the Treasurer a question, without notice. I gather that he has received a report from’ Dr. Tidswell respecting the rabbit extermination experiments in New South Wales. I desire to know whether any representations have been made to him with a view of giving those interested in the result of the experiments, information as to the nature of them ? Has the Government come to any decision as to its future attitude regarding the matter?.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– In reply to the honorable member’s question, I desire to state that those interested have not approached me - I do not know whether they have approached the Prime Minister - re- f arding the matter to which he has reerred. I think the honorable member must mean experiments on the mainland. I saw something about the matter in the press, but I have not been approached. As regards future action regarding these experiments of Dr. Danysz, I . intended to see the Prime Minister this -morning in order to learn what course it was proposed by the Government to take, but was not able to do so. My own feeling is that the experiments ought not to be repented on the mainland.

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Arising out of the question asked by the honorable member for Calare, I desire to refer to a previous question asked by myself. It may be remembered that I asked whether inquiries had been made respecting the attempted introduction of a rabbit disease into Australia, and whether the Government would ascertain the name of the New South Wales sheep breeder who had attempted to introduce the disease ? I . may say that I have very , grave doubts whether the gentlemanwhose name many of us know - has not surreptitiously introduced into Australia a rabbit disease which, if it spread amongst our sheep, might be calamitous. I press the Prime Minister to obtain further particulars if he can. In the meantime, I wish to ask the honorable gentleman whether he will obtain the name of the pastoralist who was on the steamer Moana, having with him .the germs of a rabbit disease that he was bringing into Australia, which germs were seized and thrown overboard by a. steward? It is a serious matter to Australia, and I hope that the Minister will cause the most careful inquiries to be made.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– The inquiries that I have instituted so far have not been successful. I recognise, however, that the matter is a very serious one, and that if anything of the kind has occurred we should endeavour to sheet it home to the offender.

Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Treasurer whether, seeing that Dr. Tidswell’s report on Dr. Danysz experiments has been ordered- to be printed, he will direct that the last report supplied by the South Australian Commissioners, Dr. Johnson and Mr. Giddings, is also published?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I shall consult the Prime Minister, in whose Department, I think, the papers to which the honorable member has. referred are at the present time.

CADET RIFLES.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether he will state what kind of rifle is being supplied to the- Cadets at the present time, and whether it is his intention to supply them in future with a heavier rifle than they are now using?

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– The Senior Cadets are using the .303 rifle, which is the same as is used by our troops so far as “weight is concerned. The Francotte rifle is used by Cadets in Victoria. The rifle that is used by Cadets in New South Wales is the Westley-Richards. I may also inform the honorable member that the English military authorities have been considering a suitable rifle for Cadets. .We have a sample here, and it may be’ possible for us to adopt it, and so provide a uniform rifle throughout Australia. However, I am not quite sure at present.

page 6675

QUESTION

DUTIES ON PAPER

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Treasurer, without notice, whether, before the duties on paper are discussed by the Committee of Ways and Means, he will favour the House with a return showing the duties collected on paper .since the imposition of the new Tariff ? I desire to know the quantity of, value of, and revenue collected upon paper taken out of bond since the new Tariff came into operation.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Protectionist

– In reply to the honorable member’s question, I have to state that I shall confer with the Comptroller of Customs, with a view to obtain the information which the honorable member desires. I will give it to the House as soon as I receive it.

page 6675

QUESTION

INTER-STATE TELEPHONE SERVICE: DECREASE OF REVENUE

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– I wish to ask the Postmaster-General whether the reported falling-off in the revenue from the Inter State telephone service is due to its being impossible to carry on a conversation between Melbourne and Sydney through any of the suburban telephone bureaux?

Mr Deakin:

– It is quite possible.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– Having tried recently, without success, to establish communication between Melbourne and Sydney through a local telephone bureau, I thought that the falling-off in the revenue might be due to a similar want of success on the part of others. Will the PostmasterGeneral cause inquiries to be made, and make a statement on the subject?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– Arrangements can be made to be connected with the local bureaux. All that is necessary is to leave a deposit either at the central or the local office with which “it is desired to be connected.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is not the point.

Mr Henry Willis:

– Will the PostmasterGeneral look into the matter?

Mr MAUGER:

– Yes, I am anxious to afford every facility to the public.

page 6675

QUESTION

SEIZURE OF TREACLE AS OPIUM

Mr WILSON:
CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA

– Can the Minister of Trade and Customs inform the House whether the treacle recently seized, in the belief that it was opium, has been sold and, if so, what profit was derived from the sale?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– If the honorable member can introduce the Department to a probable purchaser, I shall be much obliged to him. I shall make inquiries into the matter.

page 6675

QUESTION

VIRUS FOR RAT DESTRUCTION

Mr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– Will the Minister of Trade and Customs cause inquiries to be made as to the. efficacy of a virus used in the New Hebrides for the destruction of rats? I am informed that it has proved an absolute failure.

Mr. AUSTIN CHAPMAN. I shall beglad to make inquiries.

page 6675

CHINESE HELMETS FOR POSTAL, OFFICALS

Mr CHANTER:

– I wish to ask the Postmaster-General whether it is true, asreported in the press, that postal officials in Adelaide have been supplied with helmets made in China.

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– I find that the Deputy Postmaster-General of South Australia, in the exercise of powers recently delegated to him, has accepted a tender, through the State Tender Board, for the supply of a certain number of helmets manufactured in China. I ‘ have issued instructions that the order shall be cancelled, and that the Deputy Postmaster-General shall be asked on what authority a tender was accepted under such conditions.

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to know under whose instructions the Deputy PostmasterGeneral of South Australia accepted the tender through the State Tender Board, and whether there is not a Government policy with regard to the use of locally-made articles ? .

Mr MAUGER:

– There is a very clear Government policy in the direction mentioned by the honorable member. Our policy and also, I believe, the regulations have been distinctly violated.

Mr Hutchison:

– Who issued the instructions to the Deputy PostmasterGeneral ?

Mr MAUGER:

– With a view to carrying out the policy of. decentralization, a number of duties have been delegated to the Deputy Postmasters-General. It has been urged that too much of the work of the Department is concentrated in the central office, and one of the unfortunate results of our efforts to remove that cause of complaint is that the Deputy Postmaster-General at Adelaide has misunderstood the policy of the Commonwealth, as well as his instructions-, and got himself and the State Tender Board into trouble.

page 6676

QUESTION

TEMPORARY LETTER CARRIERS, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Will the PostmasterGeneral cause inquiries to be made as to the correctness of the statement made in the Western Australian press, that temporary letter carriers are being paid in that State at the rate of 3s. 46. per day, and, if he finds the report to be correct, put an end to the system?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– The employment of temporary letter carriers at the rate named is contrary, not only to the regulations, but to the Public Service Act, and instructions that have been issued. If it be found on inquiry that the statement is correct, an order will be issued that the practice shall be at once stopped.

page 6676

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH. OFFICES IN LONDON

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– Will the Prime Minister inform the House whether final arrangements have yet been made with the London County Council for a site for the proposed Commonwealth Offices in London ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– Our offer is still before the London County Council, arid we expect early to receive an answer.

page 6676

QUESTION

SATURDAY SITTINGS

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Prime Minister state whether it is his intention to ask the House to sit on Saturday? I seek the information at this stage so that we may make our arrangements accordingly.

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– My honorable colleague the Treasurer hopes that the progress made with the Tariff will be such as to render it unnecessary to ask the House to meet on Saturday; but if it is not, he trusts that honorable members will be prepared to meet on that day.

page 6676

– Order ! That question cannot be answered.

page 6677

QUESTION

UNIFORM COMMONWEALTH STAMPS

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– I ask the Postmaster General, without notice, . whether orders have been given for the printing of the proposed uniform Commonwealth stamps, and, if so, whether they are to be printed in Melbourne?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– We have not yet reached that stage. We have yet to call for designs.

page 6677

QUESTION

TELEGRAPH LINE BETWEEN SYDNEY AND BRISBANE

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– I ask the PostmasterGeneral, without notice, what provision, if any, has been made to relieve the congestion of work on the telegraph line between Sydney and Brisbane?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– The Department is arranging to erect an additional line to the New South Wales border, and it is now proposed to’ ask- the Treasurer and the House to provide the means for continuing it to Sydney.

page 6677

QUESTION

ARGENTINE : IMPORTATION OF AUSTRALIAN CATTLE

Mr SINCLAIR:
for Mr. Archer

asked the Minister of External Affairs upon notice -

What steps have been taken to obtain the removal of the embargo on the entry of cattle from Australia into the Argentine, and with what results?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows -

Reference to my previous reply on 13th November will show that the Government of the Republic intimated it’s preparedness to consider the removal of the prohibition upon receipt of an official notification that Australia was free from cattle disease.

The required notification was made, and the decision of the Argentine Government” is awaited.

page 6678

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration resumed from 26th November, vide page 6673) :

Postponed item 163. Steam Road Rollers,’ including ‘ Scarifier attachments, ad val., 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the words “ and on and after 28th November, 1907, Item 163. Locomotives, Traction and Portable Engines, Steam Road Rollers, including Scarifier attachments, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added.

– Here, in Melbourne.

Mr FULLER:

– We had no evidence of that placed before us. I move -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the words “traction and portable engines.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Only the other day, in Collingwood, a new engine of this kind was made, all but 5 per cent, of it of Lithgow iron.

Mr Wilson:

– The honorable member is referring ‘to the new Collingwood steam road roller, known as the “Coon.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– It was a combined steam road roller and traction engine, made by the Otis Company. The honorable member for Batman is a member of the local council, and knows all about it. It is nonsense to say that it was not made here. Every one who saw it said that it was one of the best that had ever been seen in Australia.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- I do not agree with the 30 per cent, and 25 per cent, duties as proposed by the Treasurer, but will agree to a duty of 25 per cent, all round on this group of engines.

Sir William Lyne:

– I forgot to say that 25 per cent, was the recommendation of the Tariff Commission.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– In support of a duty of 25 per cent, all round, I should like to read a quotation from evidence given in Queensland by Mr. James Ford Pearson, engineer of Walker’s Limited. Maryborough, one of the biggest foundries in Australia. On page 2209 of the Minutes of Evi’dence appears the following

Do you think you could turn out traction engines on the same scale as John Fowler and Co., of Leeds? - I have turned out several, and although they have not been altogether as highly painted up as are Fowler’s engines, they have done practically the same work.

Have you turned out the engines at as low a cost as Fowler’s? - No. We get a bigger price, because our engines are made to perform special work.

How much more do you get relatively? - About 15 to 16 per cent. more.

Can you explain why the Clyde Engineering Company did not ask for duty upon traction engines? - Because Mr. Noake their manager, is the agent for Messrs. Fowler and Co.

I should also like to draw attention to a passage in our report as follows -

We have been informed that the firm of J. Renshaw and Co., of Queen’s Bridge-street, South Melbourne, has lately built some six horsepower portable engines for the Victorian Mining Department equally as pood as, but at a cost of about 15 per cent, more than, imported engines of the same type. The Austral Otis Engineering Co. has built several portable engines in sizes up to 12 horse-power. At present, the same company is constructing two heavy earthscooping traction engines, each of 80 horsepower, and each to cost ^1,200. These machines can be made here, and would form an important addition to the iron trade of the country.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No less than twenty of this patented portable engine have been put on the market. Men do not buy a new invention for fun’s sake. They generally satisfy themselves that it is worth buying. This portable engine was satisfactory to the user. If the honorable member does not like that one, then like Cheapjack in the market he can take his choice from the other samples of locally-made engines which are shown in these phonographs. T ought not, perhaps, to blame the honorable member for Corangamite for advocating the proposed reduction of duty. Many of his constituents, being human beings, are selfish to a certain extent, and they,’ like all free-traders, wish to secure as free a market as they can in the purchasing of commodities. I can assure the honorable gentleman that within a .quarter of an hour’s walk of this building portable’ engines have been manufactured, and the manufacturer has informed me that in point of price they compare very favorably with imported engines. First of -all > we are told that it .is years since these articles were made. As a matter of. fact, the engineering trade in Australia, at any rate in Victoria, did far better thirty years ago than it- is doing now!. ‘ Why ? . Because the- protective Governments .of Victoria in their wisdom, imposed such a duty. ‘that the articles ‘could be manufactured here. -What was good for Victoria cannot be otherwise than beneficial to Australia as “a whole. The. agriculturist, the- grazier, and the mirier are dependent upon the men- in the towns,- arid therefore they -should be prepared to give and take. I ask the representatives of mining districts, “ Is it wise to. have only one avenue of employment for men?” Are they so much wedded to the mining industry, to working in the bowels of the earth, that they do not want to bring into existence other avenues of employment for their sons and their daughters’ husbands? There is no man in the city, but will concede to the agriculturist the right to . live in the same sense in which he wishes to ‘live. , But the agriculturist knows very well that in large cities there is a ready market in which he can always get satisfactory prices for his products. I realize that it is necessary to export certain commodities which we overproduce. That is essential, and also beneficial to us as a whole. At the same time, it behoves us to see that one and the other are protected in a certain sense. I do not believe that certain honorable members represent the true feelings of primary producers when they urge the Committee to discourage the manufacture of an article in Australia.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Fawkner

.- I am one of those who hold that the great bulk of these engines ought to be made in Australia. I think that, unlike the hot-air engines, they are made to only a very limited extent. In Australia there is a very large market for portable engines. They are used in every State, and are in great demand. I- believe that if there was a properly equipped factory they could be turned out as well as locomotive engines are turned out. It is an industry which we ought to try tq establish in our midst. At the same time, we ought, not to impose too high a duty. I ask the Treasurer to listen to a letter which I received a day or two ago, and which pretty well speaks for itself. Writing on the 23rd of. November, my correspondent says -

I beg to call your .attention to the injustice which the proposed duty of 25 per cent, on portable engines will entail on a mining company iri which T am interested. This is the Wilberforce Gold-dredging Company,’ situated near Beech; worth.

Sir William Lyne:

– We had that over and over again last night.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I. wish to draw the attention of the honorable gentleman to the actual sum which is involved.

Sir William Lyne:

– I know all about that.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– The company is operating in’ the Indi electorate. Prior to the introduction of the Tariff it ordered from England a 30-horse-power portable engine - a very large class of engine. Out of £8,000 expended’ on the mine, over £3,000 has gone in the purchase of engines, boilers, &c, made in this country - a fact which I think the Treasurer has not grasped. The letter continues -

Owing to the fact that the depth of the alluvial ground necessitates a type and size of portable engine never kept in stock by machinery merchants, and,, indeed, never made except to order, the directors were compelled to cable to England for the building of this special engine. The duty on this engine will amount to not less than £250.

– The foreign manufacturer has a great advantage over Australian firms, since he has a larger turn-over, has been longer established, and can obtain cheaper labour than is available here. If it is desirable to develop the iron industry, and to secure an increased population in Australia, honorable members should vote for effective protection.

Mr Thomas:

– Why not have a duty of 20 per cent. all round ?

Mr.FOSTER. - Because we wish to give a preference to Great Britain, so long as in doing so we shall not interfere with Australian industries.

Mr Thomas:

– Does the honorable member think that a duty of 20 per cent. will be effective?

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Yes ; so far as imports from Great Britain are concerned; but I am willing to vote for a duty of 25 per cent. on imports of this kind from other parts of the world in order that a preference may be granted to the Mother Country. I am not prepared to injure local industry by voting for the imposition of an ineffective duty on British imports. I am surprised at the attitude of the honorable member for Barrier, who is opposed to preferential trade. If I think that anything less than a duty, of 20 per cent. would be ineffective, as against British imports, why should I vote for a duty of 15 per cent. ?

Mr Thomas:

– The honorable member favours preference to Great Britain, but would make the duty on British imports so high as to exclude them.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– No. I am. prepared to afford every man in Australia an opportunity to buy British-made engines, but if he desires to dp so, he ought to be prepared to pay a little more for them, or the British manufacturer should be ready to pay this duty and land his engines as cheaply as he can. We have been asked what consideration we are extending in this matter to the miner. I have been associated with mining, both as a speculator and as a worker, and am satisfied that the establishment of this industry in Australia will enable those engaged in mining to obtain their machinery cheaper later on. The position will be the same in regard to pumping engines for irrigation purposes. Irrigation, together with the making of ensilage, and the storing of other fodders in times of plenty, will lead to the salvation of the Commonwealth.In the days to come the engines included in this item will be in great demand, and we cannot do better than so legislate that their cost will be reduced. I am surprised that some honorable members should imagine that the miners and farmers have so restricted an outlook that they would have us legislate only for to-day. They are quite prepared to bear their share of any burden involved in the establishment of industries native to Australia, and to support such legislation as will attract population to Australia, and enable her to offer an effective defence in the day of need.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– My experience as a politician convinces me that no speech made duringthe consideration of the Tariff is likely to affect a single vote; but I hope to influence some votes by a quotation. I quote from a letter received from Messrs. Welch,Perrin and Company, English manufacturers, the statement that an 8-h.p. traction engine costs£650, and I wish to inform the Committee that Messrs. Cliff and Bunting, of North Melbourne, manufactured an 8-h.p. traction engine this year, which they exhibited at the Victorian Agricultural Show. It was subsequently sold to a farmer for £6oo, and is now working satisfactorily at Shepparton. I make the point that the price put upon the imported engine is £650, and that a local manufacturer has sold for -£600 a similar engine, which is giving complete satisfaction.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

. -The question is not whether these ‘engines’ can be made in the Commonwealth, but whether they are being made here in sufficient numbers to enable those who require them to obtain them at a reasonable price. Apparently, in view of the volume of importation, this has not been done in the past. I do not wish to make an appeal on behalf of the poor squatters and farmers. I wish to see justice done, but, while we should have every regard for the secondary industries, we should not forget the interests of the primary industries on which they depend. In my opinion, those who are prepared to pushtheir protectionist principles to the point of prohibition on behalf of the secondary industries are the worst enemies of those industries. If the miners, squatters, and farmers did not use machinery, the workshops of the secondary industries would speedily be closed up. I am afraid that very often honorable’ members are interviewed by the promoters of secondary industries, and, as a result of’ the representations made to them, are induced to forget the interests of the primary industries. I am just as anxious asare my protectionist friends to see the manufacture of engines and machinery promoted, but I do not wish to see the primary industries heavily handicapped by prohibitive taxation upon the machinery and implements they require for their development. These portable and traction engines are very largely used in the pastoral, mining, and farming industries of the Commonwealth. If they are to progress, labour-saving appliances must be used even to a larger extent than at present in those industries. I can inform the Committee that the mineral recovered from the mining property at Nymagee, in the electorate of the honorable member for Darling, which abuts upon my own electorate, is conveyed a considerable distance to the nearest railway station by means of a traction engine. In my own electorate during the drought of 1902-3 the owners of one station spent £120,000 on fodder imported to save their stock; and a large quantity of that fodder was conveyed from the’ nearest railway station by a traction engine. Along the Lachlan there are numbers of settlers engaged in irrigating large and small areas, and traction engines are largely used in that kind of work.

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

– The portable engine is also used.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That is so, but the preference is given to the traction engine because it can be so easily moved about. These engines are also used on farms in connexion with . the threshing of wheat and chaffcutting, because by their means the necessary power required is conveniently transferred from one part of a farm to another.

Mr Mcdougall:

– What percentage of the farmers in Australia own traction engines - 2 per cent. ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The percentage is not a large one, but I wish to see it increased, because every farmer who is in a position to employ one of these engines on his farm will be able to do a great deal more work than he can do without it. If this class of machinery can be obtained at a reasonable price farmers will be in a position to make use of it who must do without’ it if the price is considerably increased as the result of the imposition of a prohibitive duty. It is in the interests of the farming, mining, and pastoral industries that I wish to have these engines placed upon the market at something like a reasonable price. I prefer that they should be manufactured in Australia, but imported engines of this description should not be shut out if they cannot be produced here at a reasonable price. The experience of the Wilberforce Gold Dredging Company is a striking illustration of the effect of these duties. They have presented a petition to this House, the facts stated in which have not been controverted. They have expended something like £10,000 in mining development. Their work is not carried on in the back blocks of Queensland or New South Wales, where they might have some difficulty in obtaining information as to the development of manufacturing industries in the Commonwealth. Their operations are carried on in the vicinity of Melbourne, and they have informed honorable members that they have purchased £3,000 worth of machinery from Victorian manufacturers. It is clear, therefore, that if they could obtain the engine which they found indispensable for their work from the Victorian firms from whom they purchased their other machinery, at a reasonable figure, they would have done so. They have said that they were obliged to import a 30 horse-power engine, because they could not get their order for such an engine executed here.

Sir William Lyne:

– Because they did not inquire.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– It is all very well for the Treasurer to tell the Committee that they did not inquire. They inquired for ,£3,000 worth of machinery, and it is therefore reasonable to assume that if they could have secured the 30 horse-power engine in the Commonwealth they would have done so rather than go to the expense of importing it. They made inquiries, and were unable to get it here. In the interests of hypothetical production, the Treasurer submitted a duty of 25 per cent, on these machines, which would represent a tax of £250 upon this company in the purchase of the engine referred to. Not satisfied with- that, the honorable gentleman yesterday proposed to jump the duty up another 5 per cent., making these engines dutiable at 30 per cent. I can give another instance. I have here a letter which I suppose other honorable members also’ have received, from the firm of Welch, Perrin, and Company, of Melbourne. They state that under the old Tariff they were selling three lines of 8 horse-power single cylinder, compound cylinder, and portable engines at £650, £750, and £285 respectively; and the mere imposition of the increased duty has had the result of increasing the price of these engines to .£785>. £9°S> and £341 respectively. The Chairman of the Tariff Commission has said that the Austral Otis Company are prepared to produce smilar 8 horse-power engines for -^”720, £825, and £325 respectively. This indicates, assuming that those engines are identical - and, so far as I can judge, they are - with the engines put on the market here by Messrs. Welch, Perrin, and Company, that there is an advance in the case of the Otis Company of ,£70 in the price of the 8 horse-power single cylinder; of £j5 in the price of the 8 horse-power compound cylinder engine; and of £40 in the price of the 8 horse-power portable engine. This means that, if these high duties are imposed, and the engines are made locally, on the basis indicated by the Otis Company, the farmers, graziers, and miners will have to pay that much more for them than they have been paying. That is the hard pounds shillings and pence side of the question. It means ‘a considerable additional burden to the primary producer. Is it reasonable that he should not be considered in this matter at all ? Should not his interests have weight with the Committee? I have presented to the Committee concrete facts, first regarding the mining” company I have indicated, and next as to the difference of price between those two reputable firms- the Otis Company and Welch, Perrin and Company.

Mr Mcdougall:

– Are the mining companies and those importing firms primary producers ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I did not claim that they were. I am showing to what extent they are helping the primary producer by supplying him with his machinery. I should like to see these machines on the free list, but, if I cannot get that, I propose to vote only for that amount of taxation which .will not be severely felt by the primary producer. I do not pro* pose to move any amendments myself, but I shall support those that have been indicated. The Treasurer seems to overlook the fact that in the great protectionist countries of Canada and New Zealand a great many of these engines are on the free list’, or were kept upon the free list until such times as they could be produced locally., other means- such as bounties in Canada - being adopted to bring them to that stage. But here, the Treasurer proposes a heavy 30 per cent. tax, practically saying to the primary producer, “ You will have to buy these machines at that price, or do without them.” In that way he proposes to encourage the secondary producer. His policy is largely that of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. If he penalizes the primary producer to that extent he will find that it will react upon the secondary producer, and that, instead of helping the latter, this prohibitive Tariff will be really a detriment to him.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I wish to say a few words in reply to those who have stated that these engines cannot be manufactured here. The very best of them can be. I have here an issue of the Australasian of August last, which contains a picture of as .fine a traction engine as ever was seen in Australia, made by Cliff and Bunting, of North Melbourne.

Mr Hughes:

– Is it on wheels?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes.

Mr Hughes:

– And do they go round?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Several honorable members have made very wild statements. This is what the Australasian said about that traction engine -

One of the exhibits at the Royal Show which is sure to attract and hold the attention of the majority of visitors next week will be a handsome, well-balanced, and serviceable traction engine, designed and manufactured by Messrs. Cliff and Bunting, of North Melbourne. This engine - a photograph of which appears in the pictorial pages - is the outcome of years of practical study of Australian conditions and needs. It has been designed and built in Australia, every part has been made in Australia, every feature has been carefully thought out, and “the result is an engine which will give satisfactory service under all conditions - on metal roads, on earth roads, and in paddocks hauling or ploughing. The excellent quality of the material used throughout not only .insures great strength, but materially reduces the weight of the engine,which is just seven and a-half tons, so that it is well within the weight limit allowed on bridges’ and culverts. The strength and lightness, combined with wide road wheels, means that no injury is done to metal roads, whilst heavy loads can be hauled in swampy paddocks where weightier engines would stick fast. . . . Two-speed gear is fitted ; quick speed for use on good roads and to make good time, and slow speed for use on rough or bad roads, or when there is a heavy load behind. The reverse is a single eccentric, very easy to handle and with little liability to wear. One of the features of the engine is the wonderful ease’ with which it is steered.

Mr WILKS:

– I generally extend more than ordinary courtesy to my fellow members, and particularly to the honorable ‘ member for Grey. We are not here, however, for the purpose of cultivating personal friendships. I do not believe that there is a stronger friendship between two members of the House than exists between the honorable member and myself. I do not know how it may be affected by my remarks this afternoon. I trust that the honorable member will not be fractious under my observations, because he can pepper us very strongly when he likes. He has rubbed it in strongly in his last speech. He, in common with others when it suits their purpose, imposes a self-denving ordinance, so far as Tariff matters are concerned. I do not think that the electorate of Grey is full of industrials to manufacture anything. I have not vet heard that it was a teeming mass’ of factories. And when the honorable member says he is prepared to take a political cake-walk out of the chamber rather than do certain things, I take the liberty of saying that probably the policy which he is advocating is a just and useful policy to a constituency in which there are no strong vested interests, no thousands of men engaged in factories, no hundred varieties of industries which- require or ask for assistance. It is just as well, sir, for me to throw that sidelight. The honorable member for Dalley, when he addresses you, does not pretend to defend this item on economic grounds any more than he would on any other grounds ; but he says openly that as honorable members rise in their places they show that they are freetraders or protectionists, in patches, just as it suits them, and he generally finds that the patch which is put most strongly before the Chair is the patch in their own electorate where a particular industry, is concerned. So far as pestering is concernedeither by personal approach or in any other way - let me tell the honorable member for Grey that not on any item have I been approached directly by either importer or manufacturer. . That is the stand which I took on the first Federal Tariff, and the stand which I take on this Tariff. Certainly I have received their circulars, but that has been all. If ever they have got near enough to speak to me, in my electorate or elsewhere, I have asked them to keep off the Tariff question, and to allow me to deal with it as a man who is responsible to his constituency for his votes. I do not ask any one else to share my responsibility. I wish the honorable member for Grey to understand that I have no recollection of the incident to which he referred just now. I do not question that it occurred as he said. Probably the way in which I then dealt ‘ with any attempt at pestering has prevented any one from attempting to pester me in connexion with this Tariff. Referring to the item before the- Chair, I suppose that the largest engineering estab.lishment in New South Wales is in my electorate. There’ are also many similar establishments there. Out of all those firms not one of them by letter, to say nothing of a personal interview, has approached me in regard to this - item. There is a clear statement of my position, sir. I would not pursue that course any longer, only that I wish to make my case clear. When I was before my electors during the last campaign, I said openly’, “ So far as the doctrine of free-trade is concerned on the necessaries of life, such as food supplies, &c, I shall endeavour to get you the lowest possible duties. But as regards” any other question when I find men, either free-traders or protectionists in patches, fighting to get a little assistance for their own electorates’, I shall take care that, as your representative, I shall not be slow in demanding a little share of that protection for my electors.” That is a frank, open statement. Perhaps, sir, you may say that it was a foolish statement for me to make, but I made it, and am answerable to my constituents. I am now carrying out, rightly or wrongly, my self:imposed policy at the last election. Yesterday, when a similar item was submitted, the plea put forward was that it would be all right if it did not affect mining machinery.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member’s argument” seems to be that we should increase the duty on powerful engines to induce farmers to breed more horses.

Mr CHANTER:

– I say nothing of the kind. Some honorable members who represent mining or farming constituencies look at a matter of this kind simply from the point of view of their own electorates, and appear to be incapable of regarding it from any other aspect: Consider it from the miner’s point of view. Will it be denied that the miner has been benefited by industrial legislation, by means of which importers’ monopolies have been compelled to bring down their prices? The reduction in the cost, of machinery has enabled the employers to pay better wages than they could otherwise have done. In years gone- by, before Victoria and other States, entered into the manufacture of machinery; from a serious, point .of -view, prices were joo per cent, higher than they are to-day.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is the old argument - high prices for flour make bread cheaper !

– That, is quite another matter. I sincerely hope the Committee will bass_ this item with the duty, proposed. t ask’ honorable members to break down once for all the feeling that we cannot make these goods to advantage. Australia has determined upon a protective policy.. The details of the Tariff may require rearranging from time to time, but duties should be so fixed that every one may know that for all time capital may safely be invested in Australian industries. We should let it go forth to the world that capital may be invested in our industries with some hope of return. We can make in Australia all that we require,- and if the majority of honorable members are true to their election pledges, they will vote for a truly protectionist policy, such as is embodied in this Tariff.

Question - That the words “ traction and portable engines,” proposed to be left out, stand part of the amendment (Mr. Fuller’s amendment ‘ of Sir William Lyne’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment of the amendment negatived. Amendment (by Mr. Fuller) put -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the figures “ 30,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figures “ 20.”

The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

– Who said that?

Mr HUTCHISON:

– To-day the honorable member states- that if manufacturers in that State are given a protection of 25 per cent, they can carry on. I wish to show that he is prepared to destroy the Western Australian industries. He says that they can carry on with a 20 per cent, duty.

Mr Hedges:

– I did not say so; they have said so themselves.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– The honorable member must be aware that they cannot carry on with a lower duty. By voting for the amendment, he would decide in favour of- a duty of only 20 per cent, on imports from the United Kingdom. That is the position. The honorable member has led the Committee to believe that he thinks a duty of 25 per cent! a fair duty.

Mr Hedges:

– I did not say it was fair ; I said that they asked too much.

Mr HUTCHISON:

-We have to consider not merely the manufacturers of Victoria and New South Wales. I have more consideration for the smaller States, where manufactures cannot be carried on on the same scale as in the larger States. I do not wish to see any industry in Western Australia or in South Australia destroyed in the way the honorable member for Fremantle proposes they should be. If the Committee does not. carry a duty of 30 per cent, in the General Tariff, I shall claim the vote of the honorable member for Fremantle in favour of a duty of 25 per cent, on imports from the United Kingdom.

Question - That the figures “ 30,” pro- posed to be left out, stand part of the proposed amendment (Sir John Quick’s amendment of Sir William Lyne’s amendment)” - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment of the amendment agreed to. Amendment inserting the figures “ 25 “ agreed to.

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

.- I desire to move in regard to the United Kingdom column that “ traction and portable engines be free.”

The CHAIRMAN:

– We have already decided that traction and portable engines shall remain part of the item.

Amendment (by Mr. Hedges) .proposed -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the figures “ 25,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figures “ 15.”

Question - That the figures “25,” proposed to be left out, stand part of the proposed amendment - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.:

Question- That the figures “15,” proposed to be inserted, be so inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment (by Sir John Quick) proposed

That the figures “20” be inserted in the’ blank created by leaving out of the proposed amendment the figures’ “ 25.”

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

– Now we see the ridiculous position in which” we are placed. The honorable member for Bendigo, as Chairman pf the Tariff Commission, recommended a duty of 25 per cent, as that which ought to be imposed ; and we have “agreed on that duty in’ the general Tariff. I must say that the Treasurer has not shown his usual” astuteness ; because,” although ‘ he might not have the support necessary to carry a duty of 30 per cent., there were still sufficient to enable him to obtain a duty of 25 per cent, all round. Having agreed to allow 25 per cent, to be fixed for the general Tariff, the Government are now practically forced to accept a duty of 20 per cent, as against Great Britain; and’ that is certainly not sufficient protection. In the case of the previous item there was no preferential duty ; but now it is proposed to give a preference which will be’ injurious to the industry. I invite the honorable member for Bendigo to withdraw’’ the amendment, because, in my opinion, the preferential duties are destroying the Tariff. For my part, I shall vote against the amendment. I am sorry to think that honorable members, who went before the country as protectionists, should be found, supporting the amendment of the honorable member for Bendigo. We find honor-, able members like the honorable member for Echuca voting for a duty of 15 per cent. ; and yet, before his constituents, he called himself a protectionist. How can honorable members justify such votes?” Why ‘do such honorable members not come’ out in their true colours and call themselves free-traders? I like honorable mem-‘ bers to act consistently with the opinions they expressed when before the electors.

Mr Palmer:

– I rise to a point of order. The honorable member for Hindmarsh has referred’ pointedly to me, ‘and said that ‘ I expressed certain opinions to’ my constituents, and that I have voted in’, another direction in this House. Is. the honorable member in order in so referring to me?

Mr HUTCHISON:

– I heard the honorable member stand up in his place anr! say that he was pledged to the recommendations of the Tariff Commission.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m. Amendment of the amendment agreed to.

Amendment (Sir William Lyne’s), as amended, agreed to. - Item, as amended, agreed to. ^Postponed item 164. (a) Engines (including traction and portable), n.e’.i. ; turbines; winches, n.e.i.- ; boilers, n.e.i: ;. pumps ; windmills.’ (b) Elevating and conveying machinery ; pile-driving plant ; economizers ; cranes ,- beer engines ; cloth- folding and’ measuring machines ; wool and other presses; lifts; water and gas meters. fc) -Ma-‘ chines- and machinery, n.e.i., at’, val. (General’ Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), “25 per cent. ….

Subject to rebate under- the conditions specified in the schedule hereto.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

.- I move -

That the words “and on and after 281A1 November, 1907, Item 164 (a) Pulley blocks and travelling blocks ; pneumatic elevators and conveyors ; steam turbo-blowers ; telphers ; apparatus for the liquefaction of gases, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free, (b) Machines and machinery, n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.,” be added.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Can the Treasurer give us any information regarding the addition which he proposes of apparatus for the liquefaction of gases?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I understand that this apparatus is not being made in the Commonwealth. Some honorable members may not be. aware of the fact that pulley blocks and travelling blocks will include the tackle connected therewith. The point was raised by the honorable member for Indi as to whether the foot-note -

Subject to rebate under the conditions specified in the schedule hereto, will be retained. I may inform him that it will have no application unless an asterisk is retained.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– 1 should like the Treasurer to explain what this apparatus for the liquefaction of gases really is? It is of the utmost importance that we should know what we are voting, for.

Mr EDWARDS:
Oxley

.- I desire to know under what item of the Tariff air compressors are included. Do they come under paragraph a of this item?

Sir William Lyne:

– No, under paragraph b.

Mr ARCHER:
Capricornia

– I would point out that steam turbines are dutiable at 5 per cent, under the general Tariff, and are free under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. Now, the only engines which enter into competition with steam’ turbines, and which, in many instances, do the same work, -are high-speed engines. At the present time these bear a duty of 20 per cent.

Sir William Lyne:

– High-speed engines are included in item 162, which has already been passed.

Mr ARCHER:

– I wish to make highspeed engines having a piston speed of 500 feet or more per minute, dutiable at 5 per cent, under the general Tariff, and to admit them free under the Tariff for the United Kingdom.-

The CHAIRMAN:

– I would point out that the item which the honorable member is desirous of amending has already been passed.

Mr ARCHER:

– Seeing that steam turbines are the motive power for the turboblowers, why cannot we include in this item high-speed engines which do the same work? I therefore move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “ blowers,” paragraph a, the words “ and high-speed engines having a piston speed of 500 feet per minute or over.”

– No; but as a rule I accept the suggestions of my officers, and throw the responsibility upon them. If I can say of my own knowledge that a proposal is wrong, I alter it. I do not know of any establishment where pulley blocks are made. When last in Sydney I visited a ship chandler’s store, with a view to making a purchase for my son, and was there informed that pulley blocks were not made in Australia. These are my reasons for including pulley blocks in this item.

Mr. TILLEY. BROWN (Indi) [8.53I.- There is a footnote to this division setting forth that items 164 and 166, amongst others-, are. “ subject to rebate under the. conditions specified in the schedule hereto;’’, and on turning to the schedule, we find, that in respect- of certain imported machinery the full duty paid is to be refunded. It seems to me that there will be great confusion .unless some further amendment be made. The term n.e.i. is always confusing t~> merchants, and is really a dragnet provision. In the schedule to the Tariff, we find that- the full duty, paid under items j 64 and i56 on -

Machinery and parts thereof used in the manufacture of fibrous materials and felt, and felt hats, when installed for use in a woollen mill, or a hat factory, for the manufacture of such materials, felt, and hats - will be refunded. Item 166 also includes machines used in the tanning of hides and skins, and it seems to me that the rebate proposals of the Government might also be extended to them. The same remark will-‘ apply to machines used in the preparation of leather. Confusion is sure to arise if the item be passed as proposed.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I have said on two occasions, that the footnote to which the honorable, member refers will apply to the machines, that were included in item 164. There is! no intention on our part to depart from that promise. Most of the machines referred to in item 164 are in the division with which we are dealing to-day ; but there is no intention on our part to take, away any right, whatever it may be, that would accrue to importers of machinery under the footnote to which the honorable member has mentioned.

– It is worked by compressed air. I move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting afterthe word “gases” the words “Hollman Patent Hoists.”

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- I am by no means averse to the inclusion of this particular machine in paragraph a, but 1 point out that whilst this patent hoist has the advantage of an advocate in the Committee, there might be a number of other patent appliances of equal merit and importance to other industries which ought also to be on the free list. I do not think it is a proper course to adopt to specify a few particular appliances, and exclude all other machinery of a similar character. I suggest to the Minister, in the circumstances, the advisability of further amending the amendment by the addition of words which would provide for the inclusion of other patent machinery of a similar character.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– There is power to provide for that under item 168.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- The answer to the honorable member for Echuca, who does not know ofany other machinery that could be included inparagraph a, is that the officers of the Customs Department, and experts engaged by the Minister, have been specially considering the machinery which cannot be made here, in order that it might be included in paragraph a. The Customs officers have information as to the whole of the machinery of this class that is imported.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– But we are not making a Tariff for to-day. There might be another hoist on the market tomorrow, which might be better than the one referred to.

Mr SPENCE:

– That is quite another question, and I admit that if we could discover some general term that would meet the case, it would be better than to specifically include, under a certain name, any particular article. There can be no doubt that in the interests of the mining industry,this class of hoist should be included in the free list. The most rabid protectionist cannot grumble at the inclusion of the few machines referred to in paragraph a, when they know that every other machine under this item must be admitted under the n.e.i. provision. One honorable member objected to the inclusion of pulley-blocks, but they must be regarded as the tools of trade of an immense number of persons engaged in many industries.

Mr HARPER:
Mernda

– I ask the Minister whether he does not think it would be well for the Committee to be informed as to what really is to be included under paragraph b, “ Machines and machinery n.e.i.” I do not wish to embarrass the Minister in any way, but the Committee should know what it is doing. It seems to me that we are making the minorgovern the major, since a small list of minor articles are put in the forefront, and everything else undefined is included in the n.e.i. paragraph. I am informed that there will be included in this item, under the provision n.e.i., air-compressing machinery for hoisting and lifting, hydraulic machinery, pumping machinery, and so on. If we are to be precluded from moving the transfer of any article from one paragraph of the item to the other, and are not informed as to what would be included in paragraph b, it seems to me that it would be well for the Minister to ‘submit an extended list, setting out the machinery included in both these paragraphs. I have no objection to the inclusion of the Hollman Patent Hoist in paragraph a, but it is only typical of many appliances necessary in the mining industry which are not manufactured here. In my opinion, it is not fair to specifically include a particular appliance, and leave scores of others to come in under the n.e.i. provision. I suggest that the Committee cannot intelligently deal with paragraph a until we have some information as to the articles which are to be included in both the paragraphs of this item.

Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay

.- I trust that the Committee will agree to the amendment.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Why include a special article by name?

Mr FISHER:

– I believe there would be no objection to withdraw the name. ‘ I know something of mining, and I understand that the Hollman Patent Hoist is a particularly suitable hoist for winzes. It would afford security in bringing up tools for work, which, as honorable . members know, is an important matter to those who have to work in a winze or shaft.

Mr Wilson:

– Would it not be better to omit the name, and include “ Patent hoists”?

Mr FISHER:

– I shall have no objection to that. I think the limitation should be that the machinery included in paragraph a should be patent machinery used for mining. On the broader question, I am quite clear as to what the item means. There can be no doubt that what is included in paragraph a is excluded from paragraph b.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

– Last night I ventured to protest against the drag-net effect of the n.e i. provision. I am glad that the importance of the matter has forced itself upon- the attention of the Committee. I hope the Minister will be successful in inducing the Committee to include the small hoist referred to. The honorable gentleman will see that the effort he has made to systematize this item of mining machinery is likely to lead to confusion, unless there is some definite understanding as to the machinery covered by the words “n.e.i.” in paragraph b. I understand that I am entitled to speak with regard to paragraph b, as the whole proposed new item is before the Committee.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Paragraph a is before the Committee at present.

Mr KNOX:

– I had intended to suggest the addition of some other articles, but I understand that I am not at liberty to do so at present, because I take it for granted that they come under paragraph b. I and others sitting near me are floundering through want of knowledge as to what is included in paragraph b. I have only risen to protest against the attempt to use that drag-net, instead of allowing the Committee, to have specific knowledge of what they are voting upon.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

– I wish to protest against this waste of time. We have been discussing for an hour and a half the question of putting an article on the free list. There may be some difference of opinion regarding paragraph b, but I hope that we shall come to a decision on paragraph a as soon as possible.

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

– There is no reason why this amendment should be limited to Hollman patent hoists. If the name “Hollman” is struck out the whole difficulty will be overcome. Instead of saying vaguely that other articles should be included in paragraph a, the honorable member for Kooyong should specify the articles which he desires to transfer to the paragraph. If he does not do that he is only wasting the time of the Committee. I will support any honorable member who shows that it is right to place any specified article on the free list.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) agreed to -

That the amendment of the amendment be amended by leaving out the word “Hollman.”

Amendment of the amendment (inserting “ patent hoists “) agreed to. - Sir WILLIAM LYNE (Hume- Treasurer) [9-19]. - I do not like to do things in too great a hurry. I do not want the words “ patent hoists “ to have too wide a range. I therefore move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “hoists” the words “used for underground mining.”

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I hope the Committee will not agree to the limitation proposed by the Treasurer. Other patent hoists should be considered as much as is a patent for “hauling mullock .out of a hole.” The proposed distinction is unnecessary and unfair. I do not know why the Minister persists in interpolating these irritating items. If he desired to “ stone-wall “ his own Tariff he could not do it more effectively than by making these interpolations. If some patent flour hoist comes out, is it to be penalized while a mining hoist comes in at a low rate ?

Question - That the words “ used for underground mining” be inserted in the amendment - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment of the amendment agreed to.

– The honorable member must not read the extract.

Mr PALMER:

– Then I will say that the members of a certain party in this House are being induced to support higher protective duties than they would otherwise support, because of the promise of the Government to introduce certain legislation, which legislation, I venture to say, will prove to be absolutely unconstitutional. That is the price which the country is paying to-day for the promise which has been made by the Government - a promise which is never likely to be carried into effect.

Question - That the figures “‘20” be inserted (Mr. Joseph Cook’s amendment of Sir William Lyne’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment of the amendment negatived. Amendment (by Sir John Quick) agreed to -

That the figures “25” be inserted in the blank in the proposed amendment ‘ caused by leaving out the figures “30.”

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) proposed -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the figures “ 25,” paragraph n, with a view 10 insert in lieu thereof the figures “ 20.”

Mr. WATSON (South Sydney) [9-571- - I would suggest that the Government should accept this proposal in view of the rate which has already been fixed under the general Tariff, and thus shorten the debate as much as possible.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

– 1 wish to know if the Government intend to agree to the amendment. If they do, I shall resume my seat, but if not, I think -I shall have to present arguments in favour of the adoption of that course.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– If I thought that there was the slightest chance of the Government carrying their proposal in favour of 25 per cent., I should persist in it, but I am not going to divide the Committee, merely for the sake of doing so, and knowing that we shall be defeated. The Government have no alternative but to accept the amendment.

Amendment of the amendment agreed to.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- In view of a certain standard having been adopted in regard to articles n.e.i., I desire to mention that there is a particular description of machinery which is used in the Commonwealth, but which, beyond a certain capacity, has not yet been satisfactorily manufactured here. I want honorable members to give consideration to those mining companies which are dealing with low-grade ores, in many cases in an extensive way. In order that they may be able to realize sufficient gold with which to carry on their works, I move -

That the following new paragraph be added to the amendment - “(c) Air compressors beyond a capacity of 1,000 cubic feet of free air per minute, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.”

I have had personal experience in regard to air compressors and engines, and, therefore, I have a fair idea of what can be reasonably done by our manufacturers. The best advice I cm get is that the manufacturing plants in Australia can produce satisfactory machinery up to a certain capacity, but that the limited quantity of machinery beyond that capacity which, is required is not sufficient . to justify v the enormous expenditure which has often to be incurred in order to produce a single machine of such size. I am informed that it may cost as much for patterns and designs to produce’ one machine as it would cost to produce six machines. According to the best information I can get, air compressors with a capacity of 1,000 cubic feet of free air per minute can drive ten or twelve drills, which, as honorable members know, is beyond the requirements of the majority of ordinary mines. We ought to make it possible for such machines to be obtained from the markets of the world.

Mr Watson:

– I am informed that air compressors up to a large capacity can be made here.

Mr FRAZER:

– I am assured that, on a commercial basis, an air compressor with a capacity of 1,000 cubic feet of free air per minute is the extreme size which local manufacturers will undertake to make. The limited demand for air compressors beyond that capacity does not justify them incurring the expense of procuring patterns and designs.

Mr COON:
Batman

– I may in form the honorable member for Kalgoorlie that air compressors with a capacity of not 1,000, but 4,000 cubic feet of free air per minute, have been made at Bendigo, Castlemaine. and Melbourne, in Victoria, and also in South Australia, and that such a machine may be seen working to-day at the Long Tunnel mine.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- In South Australia, Mr. John Felix Martin, of the Gawler Foundry, was asked his opinion about the evidence given by a Kalgoorlie mining manager to the effect that the Ingersoll-Sargent air compressor was more efficient than an Australian-made one. According to the report of the A section of the Tariff Commission, page 41, Mr. Martin explained that - it was all a matter of price, which varied according to the required capacity of the machine. An Ingersoll-Sergeant compressor could be got in Australia, as that company was not the only maker. He claimed that his compressor could be made as efficient asany imported one working inAustralia.

Another South Australian engineer used these significant words–

Tosay that mechanics who built locomotive engines in South Australia, Victoria, and Queensland cannot make an. air compressor is to talk nonsense.

Similarevidence was given on behalf of Walker’s Limited, of Maryborough, Queensland -

The engineer for Walker’s Limited, Maryborough, informed your Commissioners (in regard to evidence given by Mr. Moss in Western

Australia, that locally-made air compressors were not as good as imported) that this gentleman told him the air compressor which he had supplied had done 25 per cent. better than anticipated. The witness stated that he had made air compressors for the Broken Hill South, Broken Hill North, Block 14, and three other mines on the Barrier, and the indicator cards had shown them equal to the highest class made in England or America, namely, 95 per cent. of efficiency.

Mr Frazer:

– Will the honorable member state the capacity of those compressors ?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

-There was no evidence given about the capacity, and that point was not taken at Kalgoorlie. Only the question of price was raised there. I have no doubt whatever that air compressor’s of the capacity referred to by the honorable member can be made in some of the big engineering establishments in . South Australia, Victoria, and Queensland. The Golden. Horseshoe Mine gave to an outside firm an order for an air compressor withoutcalling for tenders in Australia, and with reference to that order, Mr. Rigby, of the Austral Otis Company, has made this statement in a letter which he sent to me -

There is no reason whatever why a compressor in every respect similar to the one they had imported could not be made in Australia, and I have no hesitation in saying that if they called for tenders for a duplicate it would be supplied locally for very much less than this one had cost the Golden Horseshoe.

– I have read an offer to make them.

Mr SPENCE:

– That offer did not contain any mention of capacity. Those who know anything about mining are aware that in dealing with low-grade lodes machineryis needed such as itis not reasonable to expect to get in Australia. Evidence given before the Tariff Commission . shows that one-fifth of the cost of a piece of machinery goes in preparing preliminary plans, and it would not be fair to expect an engineering firm to undertake the expense necessary to turn out a big piece of machinery, such as . it would not be called upon to make again for a number of years. I do not know enough about the air compressors which are in use to be able to say whether the honorable member for Kalgoorlie has fixed a proper limit; but consideration should be given where machines of an exceptional size are required. When high duties are imposed on machinery which cannot be made here, a heavy tax’ is levied on the mining industry, without corresponding benefit to Australia. I am glad that the Minister has been able to give us some definite information.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- When I brought forward my proposal, my only desire was to do what is fair in the interests of mining. There are not, on my information, many more than twenty air compressors of over 1,000 cubic feet capacity in the mines of Australia at the present time. A compressor which will deal with 1,006 cubic feet of free air per minute can drive ten three-inch cylinder rock drills, and not many mines use so many drills at one time. When a mining proposition has to deal with a large quantity of low-grade ore, it must - reduce its costs to a minimum. No doubt there are manufacturers in Victoria who would proclaim their ability to make any machinery that the most fertile imagination in the Committee could conceive of. But there is such a small demand for machines *of the size of which I am speaking, that it would not pay Australian manufacturers to go to the expense of making preparations, for constructing them. Of course, my statement is disputed. Any statement made’ on behalf . of the mining industry, no matter how substantiated by facts, is almost sure to be disputed, either by a reference to something contained in the 6,050 pages of the Tariff Commission’s reports, or by the statement of the representative of a constituency in which there_ is a foundry or engineering establishment of some description. . My proposal applies to big machinery only, and there are in Australia very few of the machines which it affects. They are being used on low-grade propositions, which are being worked as economically as possible, although the men employed on them are being paid a decent rate of wages. If the amendment be agreed to, the engineering trade of Australia will not be seriously affected, because the demand for these engines is so small that local manufacturerswould not find it worth their while to make them.

Mr. MATHEWS (Melbourne Ports> [10.27]. - The honorable member for Kalgoorlie says that he believes. that representatives of the constituencies in which there are foundries -are ready to assert that anything can be made there, which is equivalent to saying that members will make misstatements in order to get their way. I do not know whether the honorable member would like us to doubt the truth of his statements. I have here a photograph of a Cross Compound Air Compressor of 2,000 cubic feet capacity, capable of driving twenty drills, and designed and manufactured for the Long Tunnel mine, Walhalla, by the Austral Otis Engineering Company Limited, of South Melbourne; and another photograph of steam cylinders fitted with triple expansion valves and air cylinders, with improved Corliss air valves. The manager of the Long Tunnel Gold Mining Company, in a letter to the Austral Otis Engineering Company, dated Walhalla, 22nd July, 1807, says -

I have great pleasure in stating that the double compound and condensing air compressing engine which was constructed by your firm, and latelyerected at the company’s mine, has given every satisfaction. For tie oast three months it hasbeen at work night and day, without a hitch of any kind, and during that time has supplied all the compressed air, at no lbs. pressure per square inch, required in the mine for motive power, pumping, winding, and rock drilling, at a depth of 1,822 feet below the adit level.

I consider that the whole plant is of the finest class, and is constructed on the most modern and improved principles for air. “compression, namely, high and low pressure air cylinders with mechanically moved suction and delivery valves, and the steam engine, compound and surface condensing.

The indicator diagrams, which have been taken from both the engine and compressor cylinders, show that the whole machine is working in a thoroughly satisfactory manner, giving a very high economy’ and efficiency.

But some honorable members will not believe the statements made to them, nomatter what proofs, are put before them. If they were shown these engines, they would find fault with them, unless there was the name of a foreign firm attached tothem. I do not think that the honorable member for Kalgoorlie does credit to the State which he represents when he tries tomake the Committee believe that Australians cannot do anything. It seems to mie that the time will come when Australians will say that they cannot have their wants made known, iri the Houses of Parliament. It is a wonder to me that the advocates of the importers, are not imported as well as the mechanical contrivances needed in Australia. I hope that this Committee will not allow the vital points of the Tariff to be picked, out so as to make the whole scheme useless. I have noticed during the debate a tendency to pick out portions of it. for special attack* I trust that the Committee will strenuously resist the attempt to eliminate air compressing engines.

Amendment of the amendment negatived. Mr. THOMAS BROWN (Calare) £10.31]. - I desire to speak upon item 164 before it is finally dealt with, and to refer to the manner in which the Minister’s scheme is formulated. Lines are mentioned which are. placed on the free list so far as concerns the United Kingdom, and which are dutiable so far as the rest of the world is concerned. Other mining machinery of all descriptions comes under the general n.e.i. drag-net, which, by a recent vote of the Committee, has been reduced from 30 and 25 to 25 and 20 per cent. I wish to emphasize the point that a large percentage of the minerals that have to be dealt with in this country are low-grade ores. Every now and then some new method of treating such ores is discovered, which enables very large quantities to be treated successfully. “Without such methods those ores could not be profitably treated. The improvements are very largely mechanical contrivances adapting electricity and chemical processes to the treatment of ores. Under the Minister’s proposal no new method of that character devised outside Australia, and covered by patent rights, could be used here without the payment of royalties to the patentees in addition to taxation at the higher rate. In this way the mining industry would be seriously handicapped. I might mention as an instance the cyanide process. Prior to that process being discovered, a great quantity of low-grade stuff in the Commonwealth was unused. By the introduction of the cyanide process and the appliances connected with it, large areas of mineral country were rendered highly profitable. In my own electorate, enormous quantities of tailings from the old mining fields have been successfully treated several times, yielding a profit each time ; and on each occasion the method applied represented au improvement upon the preced ing one. But under the proposal of the Minister, new mechanical appliances would be penalized by having to pay the higher scale of duties.

Mr Salmon:

– What appliances does the honorable, member mean in regard to cyaniding ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am referring to any appliances which may be discovered in any part of the world for the more economical and profitable treatment of mineral ores.

Mr Mathews:

– It would be possible to buy the patent rights or pay royalties to the patentees.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The patentees would have a good deal to say as to what would have to be paid to them. The honorable member is probably aware that machines are being used in the boot factories of this city upon the rent system, by which the patentees, who refuse to sell their patent rights, secure considerable returns. If I may diverge for a moment, I take up this position in regard to patent rights : I think that we should under our law insist on the manufacture of patented machines in our midst, or that the patents should become invalid. But we have not reached that position -yet. We recognise patent rights taken out in all parts of the world. Under- this scheme, we are practically going to penalize our own people who are engaged in the mining industry in regard to the use of newer, more up-to-date, and more economical methods of treating ores. The Minister might overcome the difficulty ‘by putting in a paragraph that would allow him to permit the introduction of new forms of machinery on the lower scale, until such time as they could be manufactured here. I quite agree that it is not wise to put too. much power in the hands of the Minister, but we have to place power somewhere, and so long as it is used in the best interests of the community, no objection can be taken to it. I point out that countries which are soaked in protection - that are not experimenting with it,, but have had practical applications of it, and are further advanced in the arts and sciences than we are - pay greater regard’ to’ their mineral development than we propose to do under this Tariff. In New Zealand, very nearly all the large machinery used in mining and mineral recovery is on the free list. The same is the case in Canada. Cyaniding plants are upon the free list there, as are a large enumeration of mechanical contrivances for the profitable treatment of mineral ores, in- ; eluding gold, silver, and iron ores. .Surely, dependent as we. are to such a large extent upon our mineral resources for our wealth, i we ought to have a little, regard to these interests. Whilst the total amount of wealth realized from mining is very large, it must be remembered ‘that a great number of mining propositions are working very close . up to the paying margin, and that even a slightly increased impost might make their operations unprofitable, and cause them to shut down. In these circumstances it should be our desire to encourage, as far as possible, instead of to penalize the industry. Under the Trea- surer’s proposal every new invention that cannot be ‘ produced here, and must be imported to facilitate mining operations, will come under the drag-net n.e.i. provision, and be liable to the higher duty.

The Minister would do well to insert in the item a new paragraph enabling him to allow new inventions, calculated to assist us to make the best of our mineral resources, and which cannot be made here, to come in free.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There is an asterisk against this item, and it directs us to a footnote, setting forth that the duty is -

Subject to rebate under the conditions specified in the schedule hereto.

– I know that a question was asked in the House, but no information could be elicited from Ministers.

Sir William Lyne:

– I promised the honorable member that nothing would be agreed to without the consent of .the House.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I should be glad if the Treasurer would adopt the suggestion that I made a few minutes ago. Earlier in the evening he moved to insert in paragraph a a patent hoist, which at the last moment had been brought under his notice, and which he said could not be manufactured here. Can he “not see his way to introduce a new’ paragraph covering other inventions important to the mining industry that mav hereafter be brought under his notice, and which in the absence of such a provision would be subjected to the high duty relating to “ Machines and Machinery n.e.i.” The action taken by the Treasurer earlier in the evening shows that he is in sympathy with my suggestion, and I hope that he will adopt it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE (Hume- Treasurer [10.49].- The honorable member for Calare has asked me to provide for what would be a very dangerous procedure. To whom would he delegate the duty, of deciding whether a new invention should be treated as he proposes?

Sir John Quick:

– It is a matter for legislation.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Of course, it is. Item 168 provides that -

Any dutiable machinery, or - machine tool, or any part thereof specified in any proclamation issued by the Governor-General in pursuance of a joint address passed on the motion of Ministers by both Houses of the Parliament, stating that such machinery, machine tool, or part cannot be reasonably manufactured within the Commonwealth, and that it should be admitted duty free, shall be free. It seems to me that, in any event, that procedure would have to be followed. I do not think that honorable members would agree to allow the Government to say what should be free and what should be dutiable. .My experience . is that the ‘ House is very jealous of its privileges in that regard. I am often told that as I am a protectionist I would, if left to myself, impose protective duties upon many articles. In the same way it might be said that a freetrade Minister would be. disposed . to put articles on the free list.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– It could not be any worse than it is under the present provision.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I have read to the Committee a provision under which, if it should be found necessary to admit an article free, the Government can at any time submit to Parliament a motion to put the article on the free list, and should it be carried, a proclamation to that effect would be issued.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– And the resolution might be ma de. retrospective if Parliament were not sitting when it was .thought the’ article should first have appeared on the’ free list.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Quite so. .1 cannot see how I can undertake to do any more than is already provided for in the Tariff.

Amendment; as amended, agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Postponed item*. Item 166, Machinery and Machines; and Machine Tools, n.e.i., viz. : -

Machines, n.e.i., used in the Tanning of Hides and Skins, and in the Preparation of Leather; Automatic Canmaking and Closing Machines; Machinery for Scouring and Washing Wool ; Machinery for the Manufacture of . Paper, and for Felting ; Soap-Cutting . Machines ; Artesian Boring Machines, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent. . .

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) £11.7]. - The Treasurer’s statement is satisfactory. I appeal to the Committee to agree to the amendment of the honorable member for Robertson. The question ot tanning machinery and tools was debated for nearly a. week during the consideration of the last Tariff, and the then Minister decided to put them on the free list. He -found that they were not being made in Melbourne. Some tanning machines are being made here, but some of them

Are obsolete. Now these things are sneaked in again under this general item. In the last Tariff nearly all the different machines were itemized, but now they are brought together in this innocent form. A number of these tanning machines are patented and are not made here, and cannot be done -without. They must be imported, no matter what duties are imposed. I appeal to the Minister to put them on the free list as they were before.

Question - That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the item (Mr. Henry Willis’ amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

– There has not been much” discussion to-day from this side of the chamber.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am not blaming the Opposition. I think that in many respects we are arriving at an understanding upon these matters, and, there- fore, I am led to hope that we shall dispose of the business engaging our attention without undue debate, and thus obviate the necessity for all-night sittings. Upon that understanding. I shall ask that, progress be reported.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– We cannot sit both night and ‘day.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That is why

I appeal to honorable members to assist me.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Have ‘we not endeavoured to do so?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I quite admit that the members of the Opposition have not talked very much to-day, and in that respect, I recognise that they have extended consideration to the Government.

Progress reported.

page 6725

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until

II a.m. to-morrow.

House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 27 November 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19071127_reps_3_42/>.

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House of Representatives27 November 1907

PETITION

QUESTION

WOMEN’S EXHIBITION RIFLE MATCHES

Mr SALMON:LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

Mr EWING:Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

TASMANIAN” MAILS

Mr STORRER:BASS, TASMANIA

Mr MAUGER:Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr Storrer:

Mr MAUGER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr GLYNN:ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr THOMAS BROWN:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr CHANTER:RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr HUTCHISON:HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr HENRY WILLIS:ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr EWING:Protectionist

QUESTION

DUTIES ON PAPER

Mr MAHON:COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Protectionist

QUESTION

INTER-STATE TELEPHONE SERVICE: DECREASE OF REVENUE

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

Mr Deakin:

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Henry Willis:

Mr MAUGER:

QUESTION

SEIZURE OF TREACLE AS OPIUM

Mr WILSON:CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

QUESTION

VIRUS FOR RAT DESTRUCTION

Mr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

CHINESE HELMETS FOR POSTAL, OFFICALS

Mr CHANTER:

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

Mr BATCHELOR:BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:

Mr Hutchison:

Mr MAUGER:

QUESTION

TEMPORARY LETTER CARRIERS, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FOWLER:PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH. OFFICES IN LONDON

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

SATURDAY SITTINGS

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

TARIFF

Mr W H IRVINE:FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr Bruce Smith:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CHANTER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Chanter:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Chanter:

Mr SPEAKER:

House of Representatives
27 November 1907

Mr SALMON:
LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr STORRER:
BASS, TASMANIA

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr GLYNN:
ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

Mr MAHON:
COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Protectionist

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr WILSON:
CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Mr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr SINCLAIR:
for Mr. Archer

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC