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House of Representatives
3 November 1904

2^nd Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- SUPPLY (1904-5),
QUESTION
- ADMISSION’ OF HINDOO RACES
QUESTION
- STATE TAXATION OF FEDERAL AGENCIES
QUESTION
- DEFENCE ADMINISTRATION
LIBRARY COMMITTEE
PAPERS
QUESTION
- ENGLISH MAIL. CONTRACT
ITALIAN BOY IMMIGRANTS
QUESTION
- LETTER-BOX CLEARANCES
QUESTION
- COLOURED LABOUR ON ENGLISH MAIL STEAMERS
QUESTION
- COUNCIL OF FINANCE
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
NAVIGATION BILL COMMISSION
ORDER OF BUSINESS
PAPUA (BRITISH NEW GUINEA) BILL
ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.3c p.m., and read prayers.

page 6477

QUESTION

page 6478

QUESTION

ADMISSION’ OF HINDOO RACES

Mr HIGGINS:
NORTHERN MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister, in his capacity as Minister of External Affairs, a question having reference to an answer which he ‘ was good enough to give me some little time ago. Upon the occasion referred to 1 asked him whether he could find a trace of any pledges given by the British Government to the Hindoo races regarding their admission to all parts of the British Empire- 1 p ledges which are contained in proclamations or otherwise. He replied that he was not aware of any such pledges having been given. I based my question upon a despatch from Sir Arthur Lawley, Governor of the Transvaal, to Sir Alfred Milner, who is practically Governor-General of South Africa. The following is a sample passage from that despatch : -

When bringing the Indian Peninsula under the Sovereignty of the British Crown the Imperial Government pledged itself to make no distinction in law either in favour of or against any races or colour. Pledges such as those contained in the Proclamation of Sir Charles Napier were made at a time when large sections of the British nation had sot come into touch with coloured races as they have to-day.

May I ask whether the right honorable gentleman will be good enough to make further inquiry into the matter? If need be, I shall be glad to supply h:m with a copy of the despatch in’ question, as it is reported in .the newspapers dated the 13th April of the present year. It is important, and it would be of interest to the House, and to the country, to know what pledges have been given in this connexion.

Mr REID:
Free Trade

– With every desire to do what my honorable and learned friend wishes, it does not appear to me that it is incumbent upon this Government to make any inquiries as to any pledges, real or imaginary, which may have been made in some other part of the Empire. I do not myself feel called upon to investigate whether or not such pledges exist. All that I am concerned with is to see that the legislation of the Commonwealth is respected.

page 6479

QUESTION

STATE TAXATION OF FEDERAL AGENCIES

Sir JOHN QUICK:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– I should like to ask. the Prime: Minister, without notice, a question having reference to’ the important constitutional case of Lyne and Deakin v. The Commissioner of Taxes of Victoria, with respect, to the taxation of Federal agencies. I draw the attention of the right honorable gentleman to the fact that the Chief Justice of the High Court has stated that only a fragmentary portion of the judgment has been published in the press, and I would ask whether the right honorable gentleman will confer with the AttorneyGeneral, and consider whether arrangements should not be made for the publication of the full text of that important judgment for the information, not only of Parliament, but also. of. public men and. citi.zens. generally throughout the Commonwealth ?

Mr REID:
Free Trade

– I shall be glad to facilitate the full publication of that very important judgment. I think that probably the shortest course would be to procure a copy of the full text of the judgment, and lay it upon the table, of the House.

Mr Watson:

– Are not all records of the High Court’s decisions being published ?

Mr Deakin:

– Yes-; there are full CommonwealthLaw Reports published.

Mr REID:

– That would be a somewhat indirect method of attaining the object of the honorable and learned member for Bendigo. I think that what is desired would be better met by the special step to which I have referred”.

page 6479

QUESTION

DEFENCE ADMINISTRATION

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– I wish to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether the scheme of defence which he placed so clearly before us yesterday has been reported on by the General Officer Commanding. If so, is the report to be placed before . honorable members ; and if there has been no such report made, can the Minister inform honorable members whether the scheme which he has put forward” is in accord or otherwise with the views of the General Officer- Commanding?

Mr McCAY:
Minister for Defence · CORINELLA, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– Before coming to any decision on the matter referred to, I naturally asked for the opinion of the General Officer Commanding, or; to be quite accurate, I asked for his opinion on the scheme- which, was prepared by a committee under the authority of my predecessor, and which- was very nearly the same and. involved the same principle as that which I explained,, and the General Officer Commanding reported adversely to it. I have no. objection, to honorable- members seeing that report, and I shall see that it is laid on the table.

page 6479

LIBRARY COMMITTEE

Mr. SPEAKER laid on the table a report from the Joint Library Committee.

page 6479

PAPERS

MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers -

– It is very irregular for all that.

Mr KNOX:

– The Government Printer will be found quite prepared to verify what I say.

page 6480

QUESTION

ENGLISH MAIL. CONTRACT

Mr WATSON:

– I desire to ask the Prime “Minister whether he is now- in a position, or when he will be in a position, to let honorable members know what ‘ has been the result of the mail tenders ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I was going to ask the same question.

Mr REID:
Free Trade

– As honorable members have, I think, come to know, the result of the second effort to obtain suitable offers for carrying out the ocean mail- service, under the new condition of things brought about bv the enactment of a certain provision in the Post and Telegraph Act, has been that one tender has been sent in by the Orient Steam Navigation Company. That tender is for a sum of .£150,000, which was also the amount of the tender received on a former occasion, but there is this difference, that whereas in the former tender there wei e certain provision for refrigerating chambers incidental to the service, the new tender which we have received omits all reference to those highly desirable conditions. In the new offer there is no proposal made for any accommodation for perishable products, consequently the second offer received is distinctly more unfavorable than the first. In the circumstances, the Cabinet had no hesitation whatever in deciding as they did to-day to reject the tender.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– A state of affairs sitr.ilar to that mentioned by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports prevails in South Australia, where a large number of Italian boys have recently been introduced. These boys cannot speak a word of English, and some curiosity has been manifested as to how they obtain admission to the Commonwealth, seeing that they could not possibly pass an examination such as would be required under the Immigration Restriction Act. I shall be glad if the Prime Minister will make inquiries in this regard, which will cover the whole of the States.

Mr REID:

– I do not mind making inquiries on the subject.

page 6481

QUESTION

LETTER-BOX CLEARANCES

Mr MAHON:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Who constitute the board appointed to consider the early evening clearance of mails in Melbourne and suburbs?
Will he place on the Library table all documents bearing on the question being investigated by this board, so that the board’s report may be considered by honorable members in the light of the information to be obtained from the papers ?

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

The board is constituted of Mr. Jackson, Acting Senior Inspector of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department in Victoria, and Mr. Young, who, as an officer of somewhat similar standing in New South Wales, has an intimate knowledge of the system of clearancesin Sydney and its suburbs. They are assisted by Mr. Brain, of the Victorian, and Mr. Douglas, of the New South Wales branch of the Department, who have a complete knowledge of the details of the methods in both Melbourne and Sydney. The scope of the inquiry embraces, not the evening clearances only, but the whole system as in operation both by day and by night.
The documents bearing upon the question are now in the hands of the board, but when returned with the report, all will be placed on the Library table for the information of honorable members.

page 6481

QUESTION

COLOURED LABOUR ON ENGLISH MAIL STEAMERS

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Will he kindly furnish the number of coloured men employed by the Orient Company on their Australian mail boats?

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows : -

There is no information in the Department as to the number of coloured men employed by the Orient Company on their Australian mail boats; the manager of the company has, however, in answer to an inquiry., stated verbally that the number of coloured men so employed varies from So to 100, according to the size of the mail boat.

page 6481

QUESTION

COUNCIL OF FINANCE

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

– I move -

That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable -

To establish by Act of Parliament a Council of Finance of the Commonwealth of Australia composed of representatives to be appointed by the Commonwealth and by the States.

That such Council of Finance shall be constituted for the purposes following : -

To manage the public debts of the States and the Commonwealth.

To effect the consolidation, conversion, or renewal of the existing public debts of the States of the Commonwealth.

To undertake the flotation of new loans authorized by the Parliaments of the Commonwealth or the States of the Commonwealth.

To undertake other work being incidental or cognate to the foregoing purposes.

That the Treasurer invite the approval and co-operation of the States, with the view of obtaining through the Parliaments of the Commonwealth and the States the necessary constitutional and statutory authorities to give effect to the foregoing.

I recognise that I am extremely fortunate in being able to ask honorable members to consider this motion so soon after having given notice of it. I should like to express my thanks to the Treasurer) who has voluntarily - certainly without my knowledge - been kind enough to lay upon the table as an official paper the memorandum prepared by me. When I issued the memorandum in the form of a circular, I desired to place in the hands of honorable members in as condensed and connected a form as possible a statement of my views on this important matter, and consequently was only too glad to undertake any expense that might be entailed in doing so. When I was in London at the beginning of last year, steps were being taken to float a Victorian conversion loan, and I was very much impressed by the fact that it would have been greatly to the advantage of that State if the Commonwealth or some other authority had been appointed to undertake the conversion. Had steps been taken in that direction some two or three years ago, in the earlier days of the Commonwealth, it might reasonably have been expected that the imprimatur of the Commonwealth would have possessed considerable value, whereas at present I am afraid that no special advantage would follow from the Commonwealth instead of an individual State undertaking the operation. I wish to say at once that I can add practically nothing to the very able memorandum which the Treasurer submitted to the Conference of States Treasurers. The right honorable gentleman dealt exhaustively with the whole of the difficulties that surround the very important matter of the transfer of the States loans to the Commonwealth. I shall not unnecessarily go over ground which the right) honorable gentleman has so ably covered; but inasmuch as I disagree with his opinions upon two very important points, I wish to state the nature of my disagreement. In the first place. I do not take the sanguine view which he holds of the willingness of the States individually or collectively to submit themselves entirely to

Commonwealth control and authority. In the second place, I think that the difficulties of the situation are very great. Every one who reads the right honorable gentleman’s memorandum, together with the reports of the discussions at the Conference, and makes an examination of the whole question, will see that it is surrounded with complications and difficulties requiring for their settlement some such authority as that which I am now suggesting. The Treasurer has indicated that he thinks, that the Commonwealth Treasurer should be that authority ; but I differ from him. there, because I believe that we should have an independent authority, since the States will not entirely surrender their control, and submit themselves to the Commonwealth. I ask the attention of honorable members to section 105 of the Constitution, which gives the Commonwealth power to take over the debts of the States. It- is as follows : -

The Parliament may take over from the States their public debts as existing at the establishment of the Commonwealth, or a proportion thereof, according to the respective numbers of their people as shown by the latest statistics of the Commonwealth, and may convert, renew, or consolidate such debts, or any part thereof ; and the States shall indemnif y the Commonwealth in respect of the debts taken over, and thereafter the interest payable in respect of the debts shall be deducted and retained from the portions of the surplus revenue of the Commonwealth payable to the several States, or if such surplus is insufficient, or if there is no surplus, then the deficiency of the whole amount shall be paid by the: several States.

Then section 51 provides that -

The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to : - (xxxvii.) Matters referred to the Parliament of the Commonwealth by the Parliament or Parliaments of any State or States, but so that the law shall extend only to States by whose- Parliaments the matter is referred, or which afterwards adopt the law..

It will be seen that section 105 gives the Parliament an arbitrary power, whereas under paragraph xxxvii. of section 51 the debts can be taken over with the approval of the States. I should like to recall to honorable members the history of the consideration of this matter. It was first dealt with so far back as 1891 by theConvention which then sat in Sydney. The members of that Convention were firmly of opinion that one great object of union was the consolidation of the debts of the States. Then in 1897, in. Adelaide, to quote from the monumental work of Quick and Garran on the Constitution -

There was much diversity of opinion- upon the whole subject. Mr. Reid had nothing to say, so long as no compulsory proposition was made. Sir George Turner would have liked a compulsory taking over of all the debts, but, in view of Mr. Reid’s strong objection, he did not press this. Still, he thought that the power should be to take all the debts of the States, and he objected to the consent of the States being required. Mr. Holder and Mr. McMillan pointed out that compulsory consolidation meant making a present of the Federal security to the bondholders ; but they approved of giving the Parliament power to act without the consent of the States. Some thought that the power should be limited to existing debts ; others thought that it ought to extend to future debts. Some thought that future State borrowing should be restricted; others that this was impossible. Eventually, on Sir George Turner’s motion. Ohe requirement of the consent of the State Parliaments was omitted, on division, by twenty to fifteen, and the power was limited to “ the whole, or. a rateable proportion of the public debts of the States as existing at the establishment of the Commonwealth.” The provision requiring any savings mads to be spent in reduction of interest, was negatived, and Mr. Higgins added a declaration that the “ rateable proportion “ should be calculated on a population basis. . . . At Melbourne, Mr. Glynn moved an amendment providing for compulsory consolidation of debts, each State indemnifying the Commonwealth for any excess of its debts over the average indebtedness. This, after a long debate, was negatived. Mr. Holder, for Mr. McMillan, then moved to insert, after “ Parliament,” the words “ may take over the whole or any part of the debt of the State, subject to the consent of the State.” On this, Sir George Turner moved the substitution of “ shall “ for “ may,” which was carried by twenty-five votes to eight; a division, w’hich, coming as it did after the rejection of the guarantees, signified a desire on the part of the Convention to make some definite provision with regard to the threefold problem of the debts, the railways, and the guarantees. Mr. Holder lamented this “ unfortunate vote,” on the ground that it would at least put our worse securities on a level with our best, and would make a’ present of millions to the bondholders; whilst Mr. Reid (who had been absent when the vote was taken) objected on the ground that it dictated a high Tariff. The Convention, after some debate, showed a disposition to reverse the effect of its vote. The amendment was consequently amended by the omission of all words after “shall take over;” but t-he proposal to insert these words in the clause was negatived on division.

– That is so, but there would be more difficulty in securing unanimity in favour of the adoption of that course. Strange to say, if the States debts are taken over as a whole, there need be no consideration as to individual inhabitants of the various States - and this is where the inconsistency comes in - because if we decide to take over only a portion of the enormous debt we are bound to do so on the per capita basis of the population of the respective States. The matter is so complex that I may be pardoned for quoting a few words from my own memorandum on the subject -

The effect of this limitation does not appear to have been fully realized by the framers of the Constitution, for the indebtedness per capita at per State is so unequal that considerable amounts must remain with the States; otherwise, the per capita capital obligations, and per capita interest payments would be quite unfairly apportioned as between the States. Moreover, the rates of interest vary, and the ‘per capita incidence would be also unequal and unfair.

Mr KNOX:

Mr KNOX:

– Perhaps so; but if they were handled by some Commission of the kind I have referred to. different results might be brought about.

Sir George Turner:

– I suggest that the time having arrived for the calling on of orders of the day, the honorable member should ask leave to continue his remarks upon another occasion. He has certainly afforded us a great deal of valuable information, and I am certain honorable members will be very glad to hear anything further he. may have to say.

Leave granted; debate adjourned.

page 6491

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Debate resumed from 20th October (vide page 5873), on motion by Sir John Quick -

That, in the opinion of this House, in order ‘ to promote the primary industries of Australia, , a Federal Department of Agriculture ought to be established at an early date.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– I do not intend to occupy more than a few minutes in speaking upon this motion. The thanks of the House are due to the honorable and learned member’ for Bendigo for the persistency with which he has brought this, matter forward again and again, and also for his very excellent statement of what may be termed the Commonwealth law on the subject. “That statement is the more to be appreciated because there appears to have been some doubt as to whether any authority was conferred by the Constitution for the establishment of an Agricultural Department under Commonwealth auspices, and the hon orable and learned member has been good enough to present to us what I conceive to be a very fair and clear exposition of the law relating to the powers of this Parliament. I think,, too, that his history of the development of agriculture is deserving of the attention of honorable members. He has also made four or five suggestions as to the work which should be undertaken by a Commonwealth Agricultural Department, and, although I do not fully agree with the proposition placed before the House, I could not help admiring the- skill and ability with which the honorable mem- ‘ ber presented his case. Generally, I do not think we are yet ripe, for the establishment of a Commonwealth Depart^ ment of Agriculture. It is true the hon* orable and learned member for Bendigo indicated that he did not wish the Commonwealth to launch out upon the same large scale as have the United States- and Canada. I would point out, however, that in connexion with all new departments

I there is a. strong tendency to increase ex- I penditure, to amplify the scope of the work, and to create and multiply, the reasons for its extension. I think, that we might achieve the end the honorable and learned member, has in- view by means of the alternative proposal presented in the Opposition Alliance ‘ programme,, namely, by the establishment of a Standing: Committee of Trade and ‘ Agriculture. No great expense would be involved, and I believe that such a Committee would accomplish much more than the honorable and learned member contemplates-. It would be able to take steps in the direction of. promoting not merely our primary industries, but also our secondary industries, and, by harmonizing the work, in these directions, attain better results, than could be achieved by a special authority created to deal solely with agricultural matters. Almost at the outset of the consideration of this question, we are called, upon to recognise that the States have already devoted a large amount of money to the development of their agricultural resources, and that in almost every State there is a Department of Lands and Agriculture, supplemented by agricultural colleges, agricultural farms, laboratories, and other aids .to landed pursuits. Unsparing, efforts have been made to promote the primary industries of the States by the States themselves, and I do not think that we should be justified in taking over; at. one sweep, the whole of the work performed; for the most p_ar.t very well, by these States Departments. Although in this respect Victoria may not be quite so far advanced as are some of the other States, much useful work has been done, and great benefits have been conferred upon our agriculturists. Under these circumstances, it seems to me that possibly it would be better to endeavour to bring about a division of the work between the States and the Commonwealth under such conditions as would prevent any conflict between the two authorities, and yield greater benefits than are conferred upon, our producers at the present time. I think the States might be asked to continue to perform a very large portion of the work they are now doing, and that they might also be called upon to furnish to the Commonwealth authority, however constituted, information as to the areas of land available for settlement, the character of the soil, and the purposes for which such land might be used. They might also prepare for the use of the central authority information with regard to all matters connected with water supply, rainfall, irrigation, means of communication, facilities for transport, and the nearness of the lands available to centres of population, whether large or small. In my judgment, all these matters might very well be left to the States. The Commonwealth must naturally deal with the matter more from the business point of view. It is our function to frame the Tariff, and to determine some at least of the conditions under which agriculture shall be carried on. It is also our business to obtain information with regard to the markets, whether foreign for inter- State, available for our producers. The Honorable and learned member for Bendigo appears to rely wholly upon foreign markets, but my aim would be to facilitate the operations of and offer to our producers as large a market as possible within our own boundaries. I believe . it is par.t of the duty of the Commonwealth to afford all the information possible to our producers upon the subject of the markets available to them. It might also be regarded as within our province to supply particulars with regard to means of transport, freight rates, and shipping conditions. All these are business matters with which the Commonwealth could, deal. I read or heard it stated recently - I do not know whether by Dr. Rowan, who has recently returned from there, or by another - that a Government guarantee is worth a great -deal in the South African market, and that American manufacturers have, to use their own term, “scooped the pool” - that is, have found an immense sale for their goods there, because their importations, whether of meat, fruit, or other articles, have been branded and certified to by the American Government as of a certain quality. We, in Australia, have not yet devoted much attention to such matters as branding, packing, and a Government certificate ; but it seems to me that it would be a very good thing to have a Commonwealth brand for our products.

Mr Salmon:

– It should not be left lying about, then.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– I hope that it would be better looked after than were the butter brands used on behalf of the Government of Victoria.

Mr Tudor:

– The Victorian brand must have been regarded as of value, or exporters would not have taken the trouble to try to duplicate it.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– The fact that there was bad1 management in regard to the export of Victorian butter does not detract from the inherent goodness of the scheme. On the scientific side, there are a number of matters which ihe Commonwealth might take in hand. 1 acknowledge that some of the States laboratories have done an immense amount of good work, but I think that original research in connexion with the preservation of products, the right use of manures, fertilization, and crossfertilization, variation of crops, and other scientific questions would be better undertaken by a central Commonwealth Department. If that were done, the Governments of the States would attend to matters which are purely local, while the Commonwealth would deal with matters of wider concern, such as the markets and facilities for transport on the business side, and with original research and analysis, on the lines I have indicated, on the scientific side. An investigation of methods of preservation of produce might well be undertaken bv the Commonwealth, more especially in connexion with the management of the cool storage arrangements of the shipping companies, and the general regulations respecting shipping and transport. I think that the Department might go a little further, and endeavour on behalf of producers to prevent the severe losses which now occur in the export of Australian pro- duce to London, by establishing there a receiving agent, under the High Commissioner, or some other duly constituted authority, who would look after goods as they arrived. The Agent-General for Victoria, it is stated in to-day’s newspaper, has made that suggestion.

Mr Watson:

– He made it some months ago.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– It did not come under my notice until this morning, though personally I have advocated the proposal for some time, i think that it would pay handsomely to appoint such an agent, London being our chief market. Goods might be sent to him, and their sale might be managed and controlled by him. This, and the other matters of which I speak, are subjects for the investigation of- Commonwealth officials, who would obtain the latest information, and disseminate it amongst those who are engaged in our various industries. Turning to another phase of the question, I wish to say that I have experienced the greatest satisfaction from reading the publications of the Agricultural Departments of Victoria, and more especially of New South Wales, which contain a vast fund of information on a great variety of topics, and I have obtained from them a great deal of useful knowledge in regard to fruitgrowing, in which I am more particularly interested. If the collection and publication of this information could be centralized and co-ordinated, it would be of incalculable advantage ro all who are interested or concerned in the industries to which it relates. A central Commonwealth Department might also deal very advantageously with new primary industries. Victoria has made various intermittent experiments in this direction, in. connexion with such industries as tobacco growing, scent farming, and silk culture; but I do not think that those experiments were backed up by the latest scientific knowledge obtainable, or that the best areas were chosen in which to carry them cut. Had there been a central Commonwealth Department to give up-to-date and reliable information to all Australia, the probabilities are that new industries of permanent benefit would have been established. We have heard a great deal about the wisdom and necessity of growing cotton in Australia. I have no great knowledge on the subject, though I have a sincere desire to see something done in that direction ; but were I thinking of engaging in the industry I should like to be assured by such a competent and reliable authority as a Commonwealth Department of Agriculture should be, that I could obtain from it the latest information as to methods of production, and could learn how to successfully conduct my operations. I mention the cotton growing industry only by way of example, because the possibility of increasing our primary industries is almost unlimited. Silk growing is another industry which might be established here. It is a domestic industry, in a sense, and, if one may believe all that is written about it, an exceedingly profitable one, which would enable numbers of persons whose capital is limited to obtain a good livelihood. Now, the motion has been admirably debated from almost every point of view, and 1 should hardly have ventured to occupy time in discussing it had I not wished to em= phasize the need for a division of labour in this matter between the States and the Commonwealth, so that we may achievewhat we desire without friction or overlapping. I ask the House to proceed cautiously, by the adoption of some such proposal as that of the Opposition for a standing committee of trade and agriculture.

Sir John Quick:

– That would be only an advisory board.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– What is intended is something more than an advisory board. We wish’ to do something of permanent benefit for those connected with the primary industries of this country, without, excessive or unnecessary expenditure, and without conflict with the States.

Mr Storrer:

– One Commonwealth Department would be cheaper than six State Departments.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Yes; but until we have persuaded the States to transfer to the Commonwealth what they are now doing in regard to agriculture, which we cannot do off-hand, we had better undertake operations of which the States approve, and in regard to which we n.ay expect their co-operation. The proposed Standing Committee would, in the first place, take cognizance of our trade relationships, and would deal, not only with agriculture, but with all the industries of Australia, endeavouring to build up, not merely our primary industries, but also our secondary_ and manufacturing industries. We should avoid over-specialization, and the notion that it is only in foreign markets that we can sell our products. The Committee would do this work in a thorough and reliable fashion, and would give those who are now engaged in industries, as well as those who are thinking of embarking in them, information both accurate and scientific. We need more population, but it is utterly idle for us to endeavour to secure further settlement upon the lands unless we can assure those who settle on them that there will be a ready and profitable sale for the goods they will produce. That is, of course, a truism ; but if we are to do the right thing by Australia, we shall require to attract population of two classes - those who are to be primary producers, and those to be engaged in manufactures and secondary industries: If this is to be done, we shall need the inter-State markets of which I have spoken ; but with these requirements satisfied, and such incontrovertible scientific information as this Department would collect, given to our agriculturists, we should be able to proceed with the work with satisfaction to ourselves and satisfaction to those for whom we are about to legislate.

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

Mr Watson:

– Our butter does not bring such a high price as that produced in New Zealand, where the closest State supervision is exercised.

Mr LEE:

– In- New Zealand they have a d’rastic and very beneficial Dairy Act. I am a strong believer in co-operation, and T am sure that the revelations which have been made in connexion with the Butter- Commission ‘ will prove a strong incentive to the dairy farmers of the Commonwealth 1o apply the co-operative principle to a far greater extent in connexion with their factory operations, with a view to controlling the industry from the stage at which the cream is separated from the milk until the butter is disposed of in the markets of the world. In New South Wales the co-operative principle has been adopted to a very large degree, and the dairy farmers -there recently decided to conduct their own export business, thereby entirely dispensing with middlemen. I believe that the Victorian dairy farmers will take to heart the lessons taught by the Butter Commission, and adopt a similar course.

An Honorable Member. - There is an Export Board in New South Wales.

Mr LEE:

– Yes. When the present Prime Minister came into office as Premier of New South Wales, he appointed an Export Board, not for the purpose of supervising or interfering with the export of produce, but with a view to opening up markets, instructing exporters as to the best methods to be adopted, and cheapening freights for therm That board in its early days did yeoman service, but it broke down when those appointed to it were persons interested in these matters themselves. I am not a great believer in commercial agents. I know of one case in which a commercial agent telegraphed from Japan that there was a good market there for lead at so much a ton, but when the authorities made the information known to the persons interested in Australia, they said that they -were already supplying Japan at £i a ton more. So far as the dairying industry is concerned, such agents give no assistance to the farmers, whose produce is purchased by persons who come out here from London, and make arrangements for the supply of the home market. What our farmers require are experts in whom they will have confidence, practical men who can show them where they are wrong, and what they should do to be right. I think, however, that the motion is a good one. j-here should be no interference with the farmers; but they should be assisted with technical knowledge, which they cannot obtain for themselves, for the development of their industry. Similarly, other industries, such as silk culture, which has been started on the Clarence River, and olive growing, might be assisted. At the present time, Queensland is using for the raising of cattle land which, if it were under cultivation by intelligent farmers, would be producing much more wealth than is obtained from it in its present stage of development. I shall support the motion.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Hume

Mr Robinson:

– Nonsense !

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– It is all very well for a young politician to “ poohpooh “ such a statement, but I can prove it.

An Honorable Member. - I saw fortyfour trucks laden with harvesters leaving Melbourne a few days ago.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I have seen many leaving Victoria, where the manufacturers were protected to a reasonable extent under the State Tariff, for New South Wales. Nearly the whole of the agricultural machinery, including ploughs, harrows, and other implements, used in my electorate come from this State. Under the system of protection which prevailed in Victoria, the farmers in my electorate knew that they could obtain good machinery here, and they were able-to buy it at a lower rate than in New South Wales, where importers’ “rings:” were operating.

Mr Lonsdale:

– Nothing of the kind.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I have perhaps been led off the track by interjections, but I am alwavs ready to discuss the Tariff question. I desire, in conclusion, to emphasize my opinion that the motion is one of the greatest importance, and that on its being passed it should’ not be thrown in the waste-paper basket, so to speak, but that action should at once be taken to carry ii into ‘effect. I trust that whatever Government may be in power will not ignore the necessity to do something in this direction, and’ to do it without delay.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

– Irise to express my sympathy with the object of the motion,, but I am inclined to think that as it stands it is not calculated to inspire confidence on’ the part’ of the States or to secure that co-operation which we seek. My idea ‘ is that there should be some co-operation- between the Governments of the States and- of the Commonwealth, and that the motion- should’ be so framed as to ‘invite the- Federal Govern ment to call a conference of the Ministers of Agriculture in the various States to consider the advisableness of establishing a Federal Department of Agriculture. We should be careful not to pass any motion that might give offence or prejudice in any way our chance of making” a satisfactory arrangement in this direction..

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member suggest that the wording of the motion will offend the States Governments?

Mr POYNTON:

– We cannot disguise the fact that to carry this motion into effect would be to establish a Commonwealth Department of Agriculture. The people of the States already complain that we are duplicating the work of some of their departments; and whilst I believe that there is some chance of our securing the cooperation of the States in this matter, I think it is necessary for us, at the present time, to approach them in a very gingerly fashion. At one time we might have had no hesitation in passing a motion of this kind ; but judging by the opinions expressed by various States Ministers, they are not inclined to part with any of their powers. It must be admitted that we have no power under the Constitution to take over the States Departments of Agriculture, and we certainly should not seek to duplicate them. We should, at all events, endeavour to make a satisfactory arrangement with the States Governments. If the amendment were worded as- I suggest, thr6wing upon the Government the onus to bring the proposal under the direct notice of the States Governments-, and inviting a conference, much better results would ‘be secured. At such a conference, the representative of the Commonwealth would be in a position to disabuse the minds of the States delegates of any feeling that we desired to usurp their powers, and in that way much good would be done.- I do not propose to move an amendment, but I think it would be well to so amend the motion that it would read -

That, in the opinion of. this House, the Federal Government at an early date should invite a Conference of the States Ministers of Agriculture for the purpose of considering the advisability of establishing a Federal Department of Agriculture.

This would prevent any misconception as to our intentions on the part of the States. I think the honorable and learned member for Bendigo should consent to the motion being so amended as to allow of such a conference taking- place.

Sir John Quick:

– That will’ follow later on.

Mr POYNTON:

– I shall have to vote against the motion, unless the honorable and learned member is prepared to amend it. I am not going to vote for the creation of a Commonwealth Department of Agriculture until some effort has been made to arrive at an amicable agreement with the States. There is already too much duplication of work in connexion 1 with .the Departments we have taken over, and it seems to me that, by consultation with the representatives of the States Governments, we should be able to carry on some of our Departments at a much lower cost than at present. The steady growth of new Departments will be strongly resented by the States. I_have the . interests of the .primary producers as much at heart as has any honorable member, and I should be very loth to do anything that might be detrimental to them ; but it appears to .me that the motion does not propose the right means to give effect .to our ideas in “regard to this matter. In’ Canada immense grants of land were made in connexion with the establishment of a Department ; ‘ but we shall be in an altogether different position. The very money_ necessary to enable us to create this Department will have to be kept back from the States. It seems to me that a Commonwealth Department of Agriculture might be created to work in unison with those of the States, to their mutual advantage; but the honorable and learned member’s proposal suggests taking the bull by the horns. It invites opposition on the part of the States .before we take any action. The people of the States are not prepared to allow us to usurp any powers which we do not possess under the Constitution, and in these circumstances, although I am second to none in my desire to do everything that is possible in the interests of the primary producers, I shall feel compelled to vote against the motion as introduced.

Mr SKENE:
Grampians

– I am in distinct sympathy with the view put forward by the leader of the Opposition and the honorable member for Grey, that we ought to utilize the States Departments of Agriculture as much as possible. . When the honorable and learned member for Bendigo first brought this proposal before the House, in 1 901,. his motion was framed in a somewhat different form.

Sir John Quick:

– That was more than three years ago, and yet there has been no objection on the part of the States.

Mr SKENE:

– That is so; but at that time it appeared to me to be necessary to move such an amendment as has been indicated by the honorable member for Grey. The amendment which I then moved was -

That the following words be added : - ‘ And that steps should be taken to ascertain whether the State Parliaments will co-operate to the extent, in the meantime, of placing the services of their Agricultural Departments at the disposal of the Commonwealth Department, in so far as they may be an aid to the carrying out of those matters appertaining -to agricultural interests, which will shortly come under the exclusive control of the Commonwealth.”

Honorable members will recognise that the amendment embodied a proposal on the very lines on which the honorable member for Grey would have us proceed. The motion now before us is so worded, however, that I think the course proposed may well precede any negotiations with the States. I am prepared, after careful consideration, to vote for it, as submitted, and I trust that the honorable’ member for Grey will yet see fit to support it. I hope he will recognise that it is quite within our province, without giving any offence to 1he States, to say that we should now establish a Department of Agriculture. Having arrived at that decision, we may then request the States Departments to assist us to focus the whole of their work, and the whole of the information at their disposal. We may have a Conference, if it be thought necessary ; but let us first decide to establish a Commonwealth Department of Agriculture. There is no necessity for us to interfere in the slightest degree with the work of the States in this connexion. We may ask them in the most friendly way to supply us with all necessary information, and that information can be focussed in the Federal Department, where it will be available to the people of the six States.

Mr Poynton:

– - The honorable member would establish the Department first, and consult the’ States ‘ afterwards.

Mr SKENE:

– In establishing a central bureau of this character, no antagonism need be aroused. I am quite” in accord with the object of the honorable member for Grey, but I do not think that the holding of a Conference need be antecedent to the adoption of a motion of this’ character.

Mr REID:
Minister of External Affairs · East Sydney · Free Trade

– I think that the honorable member for Grampians has taken the correct view in regard to the opinion of the honorable member for Grey. The latter has fallen into a slight error if he imagines that the adoption of this motion wil be tantamount to establishing a Commonwealth Department of Agriculture. Instead, it merely expresses an opinion in favour of the creation of such a Department. It is true that the establishment of that Department will follow as a practical step upon the expression of opinion by this House. But there will be a sufficient interval between the two things to enable the Government to get into close touch with the Governments of the different States. As honorable members are aware, one of the leading features of the proposals of the present Government is a Conference with the Premiers of the States, with a view to discussing a number of matters of mutual concern - matters in which, in some cases, the powers of one Government overlap those of the other. I am very sanguine that the overtures which have been made by the present Government will be received in the same friendly spirit in which they have been offered. When we speak of the “ Federal spirit “ we ought to remember that such a spirit involves a just recognition of the rights and powers of the States. Within their own jurisdiction they are just as independent Commonwealths as is the Commonwealth of Australia within its jurisdiction.

Mr Fisher:

– Who denies that ?

Mr REID:

– Nobody denies it, but the point is that we should all strive to act up to it. When we use such a term as “ Federal spirit,” it should be interpreted to mean the most cordial and friendly desire to recognise the powers of the States, and to work in harmony with them in matters of mutual concern. That has been the motive, I think, of every other human being in the universe, and I am only desirous of adding that it is the motive of the present Government.

Mr Fisher:

– As it was of the last Government.

Mr REID:

– I included them in the general phrase “ every human being in the universe.” I thought that that was wide enough to include even the late Administration. Just as I desire to cultivate the most cordial relations with the other States, I have no wish to disparage the efforts of previous Governments in the same direction. To the extent that I am following a good example, I hope that my hands will be strengthened by those who have con trolled the Government in the past. Whether rightly or wrongly, there has been a great deal of sensitiveness on the part of the Governments of the States, and a number of complaints have been made, whether ill or well founded, as to the absence of such a disposition on the part of the Commonwealth Government. I do not for a moment suggest that such views are correct, but as a practical man, my anxiety is - irrespective of whether they are correct or not - to endeavour to remove them. If I thought that this motion was objectionable in any way, I should certainly advise the honorable and learned member for Bendigo to modify it. But I see nothing in it to which anybody can take exception. I accept it as the Minister of Trade arid Customs did at the beginning of this able arid valuable discussion. The Government accept it as entirely in a line with, perhaps, the greatest work which any Government can perform. It is one phase, and a very important one, of one of the most useful opportunities which can present themselves to a Federal Government. But, feeling deeply that any work of a Federal character which overlaps State jurisdiction will be imperfect unless there is a cordial co-operation between the two authorities, we should use every effort in our power to bring about that harmonious action. I heartily assent to this resolution, and I hope that in the few minutes remaining before the dinner adjournment the House will be able to agree to it.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I have no desire to make an address in the nature of a reply, because the time at our disposal is nearly exhausted, and I should like honorable members to be afforded an opportunity of coming to a vote upon this matter. This motion has now stood upon the businesspaper practically for three years. Public attention has been directed to it, and honorable members have had an opportunity of listening to the arguments which have been advanced in its favour. The States Governments have also been afforded an opportunity of entering their protest against the proposal, if they had thought fit to do so, but no such protest has been entered. I desire to express my warmest recognition of the manner in which the resolution has been received, and especially of the sympathetic support which has been accorded to it this afternoon by the leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister. It is a motion which all may join in supporting, subject to the qualifications which have been expressed upon both sides of the House, and subject to the common desire that, in establishing such a Department, we should avoid duplication and work in harmony with the States Governments to foster those primary industries which are the backbone of Australian prosperity.

Question resolved in the affirmative. “

page 6505

NAVIGATION BILL COMMISSION

Order of the day read and discharged.

page 6505

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Mr REID:
Minister of External Affairs · East Sydney · Free Trade

– Before the House adjourns for dinner, I should like to inform honorable members that this evening we propose to proceed with the Papua Bill.

Mr Carpenter:

– Why not take the business in .the order in which it appears upon the paper?

Mr REID:

– I would point out to the honorable member that only one-half an ordinary sitting remains to us, and I do not think we could dispose of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill within that period, although I am of opinion that we should be able to finish the consideration of the Papua Bill.

Mr Carpenter:

– We could deal with the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill, and afterwards proceed with the consideration of the Papua Bill.

Mr REID:

– I see no chance of doing that to-night.

Mr CARPENTER:
Fremantle

– I think that the Prime Minister ought not to treat the Bill authorizing the survey of the Transcontinental Railway in the unfair way that he proposes.

Mr Reid:

– It is rather early to accuse me of unfairness. I do not intend to play with that measure. I wish to put it through this House when I take it up.

Mr CARPENTER:

– That Bill has stood at the head of the business-paper for some time past - if we except the Estimates - and consequently it should be the next business considered. The* Government have already adjourned it to allow private members to occupy Government time in discussing a Bill to which the Prime Minister and some of his colleagues are bitterly opposed. When we find that that is the case, we have a right to complain. As the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill stands first upon the businesspaper, and as no question of importance in it remains to be decided-

Mr Reid:

– I know a great deal more of that than does the honorable member.

Mr CARPENTER:

– Outside of one amendment, of which notice has been given, there is no reason why the measure in question should provoke very much discussion. I repeat that there is every prospect that we should be able to get the Bill through Committee this evening, and then we could devote the remainder of the sitting to the consideration of the Papua Bill. The Prime Minister would have consulted the interests of honorable members, and particularly of those who represent Western Australia, if he had allowed the orders of the day to be dealt with as they stand on the business-paper.

Mr REID:

– I would point out to the honorable member that this is an emergency which Has arisen entirely owing to an accident which occurred last evening. I quite admit the responsibility of the Government for keeping a House together, and, as some of us were neglecting our duty last night, perhaps we deserve to be punished for it. We wish to resume the consideration of the Estimates to-morrow- morning, and as I came to the conclusion that we could not dispose of the Kalgoorlie-Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill ‘this evening I thought we could probably make the best use of the two or three hours still remaining at our disposal by practically completing the consideration of the Papua Bill. I can assure the honorable member that my desire is just as strong as is his to see the measure to which he has referred passed through this House and sent on to the other Chamber.

page 6505

PAPUA (BRITISH NEW GUINEA) BILL

In Committee : (Consideration resumed from 18th October, vide page 5703).

Postponed clause 23 (Meetings of Executive Council).

Mr REID:
Minister of External Affairs · East Sydney · Free Trade

– This is a clause which I overlooked on the last occasion. It is of no great importance. It simply provides that the Executive Council shall not proceed to the despatch of business unless summoned by authority of the LieutenantGovernor. “Then provision is made for a quorum. The provision is similar to that contained in all Constitutions, whether of self-governing or Crown Colonies.

Clause agreed to.

Postponed clause 28 -

There shall be a Legislative Council for the Territory.
. The Legislative Council shall consist of the Lieutenant-Governor and of the members of the Executive Council, together with such, non-official members as the Governor-General appoints under the Seal of the Commonwealth, or as the LieutenantGovernor, in pursuance of instructions from the Governor-General, appoints under the public seal of the Territory.
So long as the white resident population is less than 2,000 the number of non-official members shall be three; but when the white resident population is 2,000 or more an additional nonofficial member shall be appointed for each 1,000 of such population in excess of 1,000.

Provided that the total number of non-official members shall not exceed twelve.

Every non-official member may be removed at any time by the Governor-General, and shall vacate his seat at the end of six years from the date of his appointment, but may be re-appointed.

Mr McDONALD:
Kennedy

-I desire to amend the clause so as to provide that the three non-official members of the Legislative Council shall be elected by the white residents. The Legislative Council is to consist of the members of the Executive Council, which is to comprise not less than six persons, to be appointed ‘by the GovernorGeneral, and of three non-official members. “I do not know the exact number of white residents in the Territory at the present time, but in view of the dissatisfaction that exists among them, and the manner in which the affairs of the Territory have been administered, I think it is only right that they should have some direct representation in the Legislative Council. If the amendment be carried it will be necessary to make some provision for the elections. I move -

That all the words in sub-clause 2 after the word “ as,” line 6, be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ may be elected at any election by adult suffrage of the white resident population.”

We know of only one instance of a lapse of judgment, which led to deplorable consequences. An emergency arose which tried the presence of mind of an unfortunate man beyond his strength, and which led to tragic results. But from all I know of the Government of New Guinea, I say that it has been marked by a degree of humanity and consideration for the natives which will contrast favorably with any similar administration elsewhere. The spirit exhibited by the Government has always been a benevolent, paternal, and protecting one. I am afraid, that it would be unwise to give the few white residents of this Territory the proposed share of representation in the local Parliament. I am very sorry that I shall be obliged to oppose the amendment.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– I intend to support the amendment, but, in view of the statements of the Prime Minister, I ask the honorable member for Kennedy to modify it, so as to provide that some of the non-official members of the Legislative Council shall be elected and others appointed. I take it that the non-official members should occupy an independent position. Certainly the Legislative Council should contain some representatives of the white people. I can recall two or three places in the British Empire where there are non-official members in the local . Parliament.

Mr McCay:

– Non-official members are provided for under this Bill.

Mr CROUCH:

– But they are appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor, and to that extent they are not independent. It necessarily follows that their appointment must be recommended by some resident of the Territory. In order to meet the views of the Prime Minister, perhaps the honorable member for Kennedy might modify his amendment so as to provide for the election of one non-official member of the Legislative Council.

Mr Reid:

– The adoption of such a proposal would involve the use of expensive machinery for the sake of one man.

Mr CROUCH:

Mr WILKINSON:

– Than they would be in the hands of a few nomadic settlers, who might go to British New Guinea as prospectors, intending to make it merely a temporary abode. We know that there is a precedent in the Empire for the course we propose to adopt. In India, for example, native races under the Crown are not allowed to exercise the franchise as British subjects in other parts of the Empire, where there is responsible government, are able to do. British New Guinea is as yet in its infancy. It is not a State of the Commonwealth, but simply a territory on whose development we are expending a considerable sum. At present the white men in the Territory may fitly be described as visitors rather than settlers. They have gone there to see if they can make a rise for themselves, and I am rather inclined to think that in their interests, as well as in the interests of the natives, it is well that we should allow the clause to remain as it stands.

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

– I think we shall act wisely in passing the clause as it stands. As a matter of fact, it provides for something slightly more liberal than the usual’ Crown Colony form of government, inasmuch as there is to be a larger number of non-official nominee members of the Council than is usual. The interests of the natives will be quite as secure in the hands of a Council, consisting of members nominated by “ the Governor-General, and with the Commonwealth Parliament ready at any time to step in to remedy any defects, as they would be if representatives of the few white inhabitants of the Territory were elected to it. Fiji is administered under the usual Crown Colony type of government, an.1 its Legislative Council consists of the Governor and six official, and six non-official members. The Constitution with which we propose to endow British New Guinea is similar to that which all of the Australian States had at their foundation. When a colony is founded, it is granted, the Crown Colony form of government of the severe type in which all the members of the Legislative Council are nominated. As its population increases, however, nominee and elective members, in addition to the official members are returned to the Council, and finally it is granted what ds called responsible government, such as that under which we live. Considering that there are only about 250 British white subjects in New Guinea, I fail to understand why there should be any desire to introduce the elective system at this early stage in its career, and I do not think that’ it is necessary in the interest of the native population to do so. The Crown Colonies of the Em-, pire, such as Ceylon, Mauritius, the West Indies, Fiji, the Straits Settlements, and several others, are governed under a very similar system to that proposed in the Bill, and no one would say that in Crown Colonies the interests of the natives are not safeguarded. On the contrary, the complaint is often made that they are safeguarded to too great an extent, and that the white population do not receive the- consideration they deserve. I think that the proposal to introduce an elective system of representation into the Government of this Territory in the early stages of its career would be regarded as rather Quixotic. Local residents will be recommended to the Governor-General for appointment to the Council. We may be sure that proper inquiries will be made before any appointment is made, and that the gentlemen nominated as members will be largely interested in the development and progress of the Territory. I therefore see no reason for taking exception to the clause.

Mr BROWN:
Canobolas

– I shall support the amendment, which embodies a proposal that I voiced in the last Parliament. At that time, in view of the limited information at our disposal, it was considered that it would be unwise for us to concede this measure of self-government to the white settlers of the Territory ; but . upon inquiry I feel more .strongly than before that the proposition is a sound one. The white population of British New Guinea consists mostly of miners and traders who are realty pioneers developing what no doubt will become an important part of the Commonwealth. These persons have been trained in the exercise of the powers of selfgovernment in the States from which they come, and we need have no fear in granting them a power which they have already enjoyed.’ I believe that the interests of the Crownand of the natives are amply safeguarded by the Bill. There is to be a Legislative Council, consisting of six members, nominated, in the first instance, by the Lientenant-Governor, .and approved by the Governor-General. It is now proposed that there shall be three other members of the

– That will be a matter for us to consider with a full sense of our responsibility. I do not propose to work out that problem on the spur of the moment. I can, however, assure the Com mittee that our best efforts will be devoted to working out some method, short of a cumbrous elective process, for securing the appointment of three thoroughly representative men.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

– I have a good deal of sympathy with the idea underlying the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Kennedy, but I can clearly see that under present conditions the difficulties of putting it’ into operation are insurmountable. Of course honorable members must recollect that the conditions in Papua are ‘very different from those which prevail here. I think there is some merit in the proposal that a limit should be fixed for the operation of the proposed system of government. At the expiration of a specified period the present arrangement might, if it were thought desirable, be continued for a further term, or it might be superseded by a better one”.- ‘Some reference was made to the Constitution of Fiji, and the manner in which the Government there is conducted. I have no official information relating to .the matter, but a book recently published under the title of Sunshine and Surf, and written by Mr. Douglas Hall and Lord Albert Osborne, makes some reference to it. This book describes a cruise among the South Sea Islands, and the statements made by the authors can be regarded only as ex parte declarations of tourists. Still, the authors seem- to be fairly well informed, and what they say with regard to the experience of Fiji is not particularly in favour of th” form of Constitution which is now proposed for Papua. At page 225 they say -

Fiji, as many know, is a Crown Colony of a most rigorous type. The whole Government is vested in the hands of the particular colonial official who happens to be appointed Governor. His council, who assist him in making the laws, is composed of the six heads of Government Departments, and six presumably leading white inhabitants appointed by the Governor, but only during “ good behaviour.”

The present Governor decided that the six Government officials were bound to vote with the Governor on any measure which he might bring forward, thus one can see at a glance that, as he , has a casting vote, with his six satellites, he can carry any measure for taxation or for the spending’ of the revenue he chooses. The present Governor is a man with very strong ideas, which are not always successful, and it was commonly reported to us that if a deputation of merchants or others came to see him on any subject he scarcely received them with decent politeness.

They quote a number of glaring cases of governmental tyranny under the Fijian system, and remark further -

As a white merchant here said to me once, “ We are thousands of miles away from England. Even the Governor’s salary is now paid by the Colony, and nothing of any sort about Fiji ever goes up before Parliament. We know nobody in authority in England, and nobody to take our part.”

They are absolutely under the autocratic thumb of the Governor appointed by the Colonial Office, and the only way his acts can be criticised, I presume, would be when the Colonial Office estimates are brought forward ; but, no doubt, any members who spoke or asked questions about Fiji would get as their sole reward a caricature of themselves in Punch, dressed as a half-naked Fijian, with a club in his hand, dancing a wardance.

Of course, this has reference to the form of Government in a Crown Colony, which is far removed from the sphere of English parliamentary influence. Papua is very differently situated, because it is located within 100 miles of our coast, and its Government will be under the immediate supervision of the Commonwealth Parliament.

Mr Brown:

– We know as much about Fiji as we do about Papua.

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr Reid:

The CHAIRMAN:

– I must be allowed to be the judge, temporarily, at any rate, and I fail to see any connexion. I therefore ask the honorable member not to refer to that matter.

Mr HUTCHISON:

– I should not have done so had it not been for the interjection of the honorable member for New England. There is great danger of dissatisfaction arising among the white residents of New Guinea, and, in fact, many complaints have already been made of the present Administration. If the white population were given at least one direct representative, a great deal would be done to prevent irritation, and to secure the good government of the Territory. I am sorry that the honorable member for Kennedy is prepared to withdraw the amendment. I urge the Prime Minister to make provision for the appointment of at least one member of the Council to directly represent the white population of the Territory. . I should be quite satisfied .with the appointment of a non-official member, on a .memorial from the white population.

Mn BROWN (Canobolas).- I do not [think that the honorable member for Kennedy has -secured any very great concession. I should be prepared to- allow the clause to pass as- it stands, if the experience 10 q 2 of the various British possessions where this system of Government has been tried had not shown that it has not been -an unqualified success. Although in the initial stages of colonization it has been thought necessary to adopt this form of government, it has not been regarded by those who have lived under it as very desirable. If it could be shown that a nominee Council would safeguard the interests of the blacks better than an elective or partially elective Council, my position would be different ; but our experience in Australia has been that the blacks have suffered the greatest amount of injustice, not under representative government, but under a government similar to that which is proposed- for New Guinea. An opportunity should be given to the white population of the Territory-

Question - That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 25

NOES: 22

Majority … … … 3

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. WEBSTER (Gwydir). - I move-

That the word “ three,” line 13, be left out, with a view to the insertion of the word “ six.”

If any system of representation by election be desired, we should balance, as far as possible the representation of the respective interests in the Council. It has been stated that in one of the Crown Colonies there are six official and six non-official members of the Council.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– The statement made by the Prime Minister as to the position of the white and coloured races in Papua reminds one of the situation in India. India has a population of some 350,000,000 coloured1 British subjects, and I doubt if there are as many hundred thousand whites to be found there; but neither the white nor coloured races are allowed to exercise the franchise. We know, however, that in two small districts in the peninsula - Chandernagore, and Pondicherry - which belong to France,, the people have the privilege of electing a member to the Chamber of Deputies, and . the Senate in Paris. I -mentionthis only as. showing that one European nation, at all events, allows representatives to be elected in respect of a small part of the peninsula of Hindustan, whilst 350,000,000 highly civilized human beings in the main part of the penin sula, are not permitted to exercise the franchise.

Mr Reid:

– Does that justify this amendment?

Mr MALONEY:

– It shows that . the white settlers in Papua should have representation.

Mr Reid:

– But the amendment means something more than that; it says in effect that the whites shall exercise half the power of the Legislature - 600 whites against half-a-million blacks.

Mr Webster:

– Not necessarily.

Mr Reid:

– In reality that will be the position.

Mr MALONEY:

– The white races will have some measure of representation, but unless the number of members be increased from three to six, they will not be properly represented. Australian sentiment is that the white races should have proper representation, and I intend to vote for the amendment.

Question - That the word proposed to be left out, stand part of the clause - put. The Committee divided -

Ayes … … … 22

Noes … … … 20

Majority … … 2

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– The Prime Minister has succeeded in resisting both the attempts which have been made to amend the clause, because he has given honorable members an assurance that the Government will be responsible for any appointments that may be made. I would point out, however, that sub-clause 2 provides that the appointments shall be made by: the Governor-General, under the seal of the Commonwealth, or by the LieutenantGovernor in pursuance of instructions from the Governor-General. If these instructions are of a general character, and are issued immediately the Bill is brought into operation, any subsequent Governments will be relieved of the responsibility . for the directions given by their predecessors. I should like the Prime Minister to consider the advisability of amending the clause by providing that special instructions shall be given in every case.In that event, the Government of the day will be directly responsible to Parliament for any action that may be taken.

Clause agreed to.

Mr MAUGER:
Melbourne Ports

– I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : - 20A. No intoxicants or opium shall be allowed to be imported into or manufactured or sold or otherwise disposed of in the Territory except for medicinal purposes to be disnensed on the order of a medical practitioner, or person duly authorized by the Lieutenant-Governor, and any ordinance passed before the commencement of this Act providing for such introduction or sale is hereby repealed.

I have considerably altered the scope of the clause since it was last submitted to the House. When the Bill was before us last session, it was provided that no intoxicants should be sold except for medicinal purposes on the order of a medical practitioner, but honorable members will notice that I now propose . that liquors shall be dispensed by a medical practitioner “or person duly authorized by the LieutenantGovernor.” I desire to direct attention to the objections raised by Sir Edmund Barton upon a’ former occasion, and also to the information gleaned by the honorable and learned member for Ballarat from residents in Papua. Sir Edmund Barton, in opposing the clause which was previously agreed to, laid special emphasis on two points. In the first place, he stated that a considerable loss of revenue would result from the prohibition of the sale of liquor, and, in the second place, pointed out that the precautions taken to prevent the sale of liquor to natives had proved thoroughly effective; and that no real danger was to be apprehended. He directed attention to the fact that the ordinary licensee was allowed to sell liquor only for consumption off the premises, or for consumption on the premises by bonâ fide residents in such premises, and that the conditions were such as to preclude the natives from obtainingliquor. He represented that the loss of revenue would amount to something like! £3,263, and said, further, that there were fourteen licensees to meet the requiremnts of 500 white people. The opinions expressed in the paper laid upon the table, which gives the answers to a series of question submitted to residents of the Territory by the honorable and learned member for Ballarat, were offered in respect. to the clause as it was embodied in the former Bill, which precluded any one but a medical practitioner from dispensing spirits for medicinal purposes. The evidence of the missionaries was particularly based upon that restricted provision. I would direct the attention of the honorable and learned member for Ballarat to the fact that some of the statements made are of the most remarkable character. In the first place, the Acting-Administrator admits that he does not know the number of licences issued.

Mr Kelly:

– That is hardly a fair way of putting it.

Mr MAUGER:

– I shall quote his own words. He says - i regret to say i am not yet in possession of the results of the Government Secretary’s inquiries as to the number of licences in force. They are granted by the Resident Magistrate in each division, but no general record of them has been kept at head-quarters.

Therefore the Administrator has so little control over the issue of these licences that he knows practically nothing about them.The statement that there are only fourteen licences is proved to be wrong, because there are actually twenty. A further remark is made by the ActingAdministratorto the effect that if the proposed prohibitionbe carried out neither missionary nor miner on’ the gold-fields will be able to procure a bottle of spirits to alleviate pressing sickness except on a certificate from a medical officer, and he points out that there is only one medical officer at Port Moresby, and another at some place far removed from the gold-fields. The clause ‘ as it is now framed meets. the objection based upon the ground that spirits can be dispensed only by a medical’ practitioner. It will be competent for the Government to arrange for spirits to be dispensed by any person, subject to proper supervision. Sir Edmund Barton stated that no less a sum than £3,130 8s. 5d. was collected annually in the shape of liquor duties.

Mr Wilks:

– The white residents must have a verv big thirst.

Mr MAUGER:

– Yes. Sir Edmund Barton also stated that, no retail licences were issued, and that no intoxicating spirits were sold, except in bottles, for consumption off the premises. The Acting-Administrator states, however, that -

Your Excellency will have observed that Section IV. of “The Liquor Ordinance of 1891 “ does not authorize what is generally known as a “ bar trade,” but such a trade seems to have been permitted, and the hotels at Port Moresby and Samarai and the stores in the more remote places sell liquor by the glass under the licence granted them.

This shows conclusively that the conditions of the licences at present issued are being evaded, and that liquor is being sold apparently without any restriction. Now let me quote the opinions of some of the missionaries, to which great prominence is given in the papers laid before the House. The Bishop of the Church of England Mission says -

The laws dealing with the sale of alcoholic liquor generally have been observed, so far as the authority and influence of the Government officers have extended, but there are stores on the gold-fields, and at least one township where at times no officer is present, and then excessive drinking has been resorted to. The present unrestricted sale of alcoholic liquors, bringing large gains to the vendor, or to the licensed victualler, or storekeeper, whom he represents, needs immediate attention. It has led to unchecked orgies, which have disgraced and lowered the white race in the eyes of the native, and while the ‘state of Samarai in this respect has greatly improved during the last five years, in more remote places disgraceful scenes have occurred more recently.

Another missionary says-

The morals and health of the white community and natives would probably, as a whole, be slightly improved, but members of the former would perhaps be driven to dishonest, acts to procure spirits.

The fear is expressed by most of them that liquor will not be obtainable for medicinal purposes, and their objection is based upon that ground. They agree that the morals and the health, of the people will be greatly- improved. Another missionary remarks -

The laws of the Possession arrange for bottle licences, and forbid liquor to be drunk on the premises where it is sold. This prohibition is universally disregarded. Every place where liquor is sold by licence has a bar at which it is drunk.

Sir Edmund Barton made a strong point of the fact that the native residents could not obtain drink except for consumption off the premises, and ‘ stated that there were no licensed houses in the sense in which we understood the term in Australia. Another missionary testifies that -

Natives have undoubtedly obtained drink. The sources at present are : the stores, private individuals (whites), hotels, and kanakas. I don’t think that natives get it from the stores with the knowledge of the storekeepers. Private individuals are not always careful to lock up their whisky bottles. Hotels have, it is supposed, supplied kanakas, with or without permit, secretly. It will be impossible to safeguard the supply to natives unless kanakas are placed absolutely on the same footing as the Papuan, and the sale of drink taken over by Government, and no licences issued to private individuals.

Although prohibition on the lines indicated in the clause as previously adopted is condemned, all the missionaries agree that if prohibition could be made effective it would be in the best interests not only of the natives, but of the white residents.

Sir John Forrest:

– I cannot put my hand upon it just now, but I can assure the Minister that its effect is absolutely prohibitive. Continuing, Mr. Seddon is reported to have said -

There were, during the year 1901-2, 4,271- bottles of spirits consumed at the Cook Islands amongst less than eighty whites, including Chines: and women and children. The women and children number thirty. This, added to 11 respectable quantity of wine and beer, is a bad record. Where you have a state of things like this, wilh schooners coming about with grog, and going in and out amongst them, you are faced with great difficulties. We stopped that to some extent by making only one port of entry, thus gaining control, and we provide that no liquor shall be introduced except as specified here.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– But how is it specified ?

Mr MAUGER:

– It is specified upon the lines that I have indicated.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– No.

Mr MAUGER:

– Then another member of the House of Representatives, Mr. Fowlds, speaking upon the same question, said -

I admit it is not possible for any one to go there with the eyes and ears open and not come away with the knowledge of the fact that a good deal of illicit trade in liquor is going on. At the same time, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that the picture that is frequently drawn of the condition of things in the King country - and especially if we compare it with other similar places, where licences exist - is over-drawn. I go to other places where there are a- number of natives, and where there is a licenced house, and almost any time I go to these places I see more evidence of native drunkenness and demoralization round about the licenced houses than I have ever been able to see on any visit to the King country. It is true that the police and the magistrate have done their duty as well as possible under the law they have to operate, but it has to be remembered we have never had applicable to the King country the same law that is applicable to districts where no licence has been carried in other parts of the colony.

Mr Johnson:

– From what is the honorable member quoting?

Mr MAUGER:

– From the New Zealand Ilansard. The same speaker proceeded -

The condition of things existing there will be very greatly improved by the adoption of the clauses in this Bill, or the provisions applicable in other districts, where no licence has been carried.

– Surely the honorable and learned member would not seriously advance that argument, when the existence of a whole race is in> question ?

Mr DEAKIN:

We are resident in New Guinea solely for the well-being and good of the natives, and in their interests, and for their sakes, we wish to deprecate the passing of this law -

That is, the amendment of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports-

Mr Mauger:

– No; it was a different proposal then.

Mr REID:

– It was “practically the same proposal, because it is intended to supersede the local ordinance by an amendment in the direction of prohibition. The resolution says -

We are resident in New Guinea, solely for the well-being and good of the natives’, and in their interests, and for their sakes, we wish to depre-cate the passing of this law, which, we believe, would lead to the very evil we are all anxious to prevent.

I put against the views of the honorable member for Melbourne’ Ports, whose motives we all respect, but whose experience upon- the subject in this particular part of the world is limited, this recommendation of the missionaries in New Guinea. I say that this formal resolution, which was passed by the District Committee of the = London Missionary Society, and which is signed by Mr. W. G. Lawes, who has had thirty years’ experience of missionary work >in the Possession - especially when it is considered in conjunction with the testimony of other witnesses, which is set forth in this Parliamentary paper - shows that the dreadful evils which the honorable member anticipates do not exist ; that the liquor law is sufficiently effective to prevent- them ; and that the natives of New Guinea - like most other members of the aboriginal races - do not seem to possess any taste for intoxicants.

Mr Wilks:

– They will soon acquire it.

Mr REID:

– It is a taste that can~ be acquired very suddenly, even by white people. In support of the views which are entertained by the District Committee of the London Missionary Society, I shall quote only two witnesses. One .of these is Mr. Lawes, who is perhaps one of the most eminent authorities in New Guinea, where he has been located as a missionary for thirty years. He says that the present law is good, that no liquor is sold to natives under it, and that none is consumed by natives at the present time.

Mr Mauger:

– Yet in the same report there is a list of fines imposed for breaches of the law.

Mr REID:

– Of course, Mr. Lawes does not pretend to be omniscient, but that is the result of his thirty years experience. One of the Roman Catholic missionaries, who has been in New Guinea for ten years, declares that there is no such thing as the sale of liquor to the natives. He says -

The laws of the Possession dealing with the sale of alcoholic liquors generally, have been carefully observed ; and especially concerning the sale to the natives, I do not remember any example of violations of the same prohibition, at least in our district at Mekeo.

That gentleman says that to his knowledge there is no sale of liquor to the natives, and that the law in this respect has been exactly observed. He goes on to say -

I know not of a single case of a white man giving alcoholic liquor to natives, except once or twice to a dying man. In this district the natives do not consume any alcohol.

– They come from the fishing boats.

Mr JOHNSON:

These men have native wives, and in every way are identified with native life, and the danger of the spread of drinking habits among the Papuans is here. Also the kanaka etiquette, which forbids the refusal to share with their fellows, is a cause of the others obtaining drink.

Then in regard to prohibition, this gentle man says -

The result of prohibition will be to decrease the revenue, which, in view of the grave dangers of drink, is of little consequence.

I share that view. The loss of revenue is of very little importance in the light of the evils against which we have to guard.

For medical purposes prohibition does not touch alcohol. The use of alcoholic drink as a beverage in hospitals depends on the principle, favorable or otherwise, of the medical officer in charge.

The proposed amendment intends to go beyond the medical officer, and to allow other properly appointed persons to grant permission for the use of alcohol. That would overcome the difficulty that has been mentioned about obtaining medical sanction in every case owing to there being only two medical practitioners in the Territory.

Prohibition will create a sense of injustice in the minds of those who feel alcohol to be a necessity of their life, even as opium, eaters will, but it will be an undoubted blessing to them notwithstanding. This does not refer to the miners only, but to many others who are not so employed, who are evidently, destroying themselves by excess.

Prohibition would place one more difficulty in the way of getting alcohol.

The more difficulties are placed in the way of getting it the better it will be for the population, whether white or black -

In order to carry out such a law, it would be necessary to see that the Government officials who would have to administer the law were sympathetic with its principles. Those officials, who may themselves be habitual inebriates, could hardly be expected to be zealous in the administration of such a law. It would be necessary also, I think, to extend the law to Torres Straits and Northern Queensland. It would be necessary to increase the staff of sympathetic Government magistrates, and, having done this, experiment alone would prove effectual or otherwise.

There would be a slight lessening of revenue as a result of its adoption.

The tendency would be to improve, possibly the morals, really the health, of the excessive drinker.

I have set forward the views of these missionaries in opposition to the opinions expressed by admittedly equally good authorities on the other side. The subject has exercised the minds of a very large body of my constituents, and in supporting the amendment I am endeavouring to give effect, not only to their opinion, but also to the pledges which T gave during my recent electoral campaign.

Mr Reid:

– As we are to have an early sitting to-morrow, and a number of honorable members wish’ to speak on this subject, I shall not ask the Committee to deal with the amendment to-night.

Progress reported.

page 6530

ADJOURNMENT

Coaling of Warships. - Report of the General Officer Commanding on Defence Proposals.

Motion (by Mr. Reid) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr REID:

– They would get no better information if I were to take it up. Their right to a courteous consideration of a matter affecting their own business interests will be fully recognised by’the officer in command of the Squadron, and he will give them all the information they require. They have not asked me to represent them in any way, and the fact that the honorable member has askedme to interfere in the matter does not make it my business to do so.

Question resolved in the affirmative

House adjourned at 11. 14 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 3 November 1904, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1904/19041103_reps_2_23/>.

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House of Representatives 3 November 1904

QUESTION

SUPPLY (1904-5),

Sir GEORGE TURNER:Treasurer · BalaclavaTreasurer · Protectionist

Mr Mahon:

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Thomas:

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr WATSON:Bland

Mr Thomas:

Mr WATSON:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr Mahon:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr REID:Minister of External Affairs · East Sydney · Free Trade

Sir John Forrest:

Mr MALONEY:Melbourne

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CROUCH:Corio

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CROUCH:

Mr SPEAKER:

QUESTION

ADMISSION’ OF HINDOO RACES

Mr HIGGINS:NORTHERN MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr REID:Free Trade

QUESTION

STATE TAXATION OF FEDERAL AGENCIES

Sir JOHN QUICK:BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr REID:Free Trade

Mr Watson:

Mr Deakin:

Mr REID:

QUESTION

DEFENCE ADMINISTRATION

Sir JOHN FORREST:

Mr McCAY:Minister for Defence · CORINELLA, VICTORIA · Protectionist

LIBRARY COMMITTEE

PAPERS

Mr McDONALD:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Sir GEORGE TURNER:Protectionist

Mr McDonald:

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

Mr McDonald:

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

Mr McDonald:

Sir George Turner:

Mr POYNTON:GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

Mr Watson:

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

Mr MCDONALD:

Mr KNOX:KOOYONG, VICTORIA

Mr Bamford:

Mr KNOX:

QUESTION

ENGLISH MAIL. CONTRACT

Mr WATSON:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr REID:Free Trade

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr Page:

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr WATSON:

Mr REID:

Mr HIGGINS:

Mr REID:

Mr HIGGINS:

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

ITALIAN BOY IMMIGRANTS

Mr MAUGER:MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr REID:Free Trade

Mr Watson:

Mr REID:

Mr POYNTON:

Mr REID:

QUESTION

House of Representatives
3 November 1904

Sir GEORGE TURNER:
Treasurer · BalaclavaTreasurer · Protectionist

Mr WATSON:
Bland

Mr REID:
Minister of External Affairs · East Sydney · Free Trade

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

Mr HIGGINS:
NORTHERN MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr REID:
Free Trade

Sir JOHN QUICK:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr REID:
Free Trade

Mr McCAY:
Minister for Defence · CORINELLA, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Sir GEORGE TURNER:
Protectionist

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr KNOX:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr REID:
Free Trade

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr MAUGER:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr REID:
Free Trade

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT