House of Representatives
12 June 1901

1^st Parliament · 1^st Session

PRESENTATION OF ADDRESS TO THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL
HOPETOUN,
QUESTION
- IMPORTS
QUESTION
- THE OATH OF ALLEGIANCE
APPEALS BY POST. OFFICE EMPLOYES
QUESTION
- ARREARS OF SALARY IN POSTAL DEPARTMENT
SUPPLY BILL

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.20 p.m.

page 946

PRESENTATION OF ADDRESS TO THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have to remind the House that at half-past two His Excellency the Governor-General will receive the Address in Reply to His Excellency’s opening speech, and I shall be glad if the mover and seconder of- the address and such other honorable members as may think fit will presently accompany me to the Executive Council Chamber to present it.

The House thereupon proceeded to the Executive Council Chamber, and, being returned,

Mr. SPEAKER said. I have to inform the House that, attended by the mover and seconder of the Address in Reply, and other honorable members, I presented the Address to His Excellency the Governor-General, this day, at tho Executive Council Chamber, when His Excellency was good enough to make the following reply :

To the Honorable the Speaker, and Members of the

Howse of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Australia.

Gentlemen, - It is highly gratifying to me to receive your Address in Reply to the- Speech delivered oy me on the occasion of the Opening of tho Parliament of the Commonwealth, and I thank you for your pleasing assurances of loyalty to the Throne and Person of the Sovereign.

I earnestly hope that the result of your considerations of the various measures submitted to Parliament will prove of much benefit to the people of Australia.

page 947

HOPETOUN,

G overnor-General. 12th June, . 1901.

page 947

QUESTION

IMPORTS

Mr A C GROOM:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · FT

asked the Minister for Customs, upon notice -

Whether he will furnish a return showing the amount of imports yearly from countries outside the Commonwealth, separately for each State, for the last five years; also, giving the amounts free and dutiable in each instance?

Mr KINGSTON:
Minister for Trade and Customs · SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · Protectionist

– Certainly.

page 947

QUESTION

THE OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

Mr CAMERON:
TASMANIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

– They were.not handed round as were the vellum sheets. Certainly no Bible was handed to me. I was not sworn inin the usual manner, and I am perfectly satisfied that two-thirds of the members of this House are -in a similar position.

Mr. BARTON (Hunter, Minister for External Affairs).- - Perhaps the House will indulgeme with -an opportunity ‘of -saying a word upon this -subject, -as the action of those who conducted the proceedings at the opening of the Commonwealth Parliament seems to be misunderstood. The -sheets of vellum towhich the honorable member referred were intended . to be collected afterwards, and- to ‘form the . roll of the House. The vellum sheets had no connexion with the oathexcept that they -contained the member’s “testimony that ‘he had ‘taken the oath, and were to be accepted as that testimony. It: was not necessary for the ‘honorable member for Tasmania to be called -up. An honorable member can call . his Maker to witness’ that he is loyal to hisSovereign, without being called toany . particular place. The Governor-General advanced to the front of the dais,and with the common consent of all honorable members who were present, recited to them the words of the oath, which ‘they -repeated : after him in several batches. If the honorable member for Tasmania, Mr, Cameron, assures this House that . he ididnot go through that form,and did not utter those words, and did not kiss the book, he is not properly ‘here, and he is liable to be fined so’ many pounds a . day for being here. On the other hand, if he did what was expected of . -him, and ‘that which all other honorable members willingly did, then, on that condition only had he any power to make the statement he has just made. I take it, that ifthe honorable member is of opinion that he did not repeat the form of words, and did not kiss the book, then you, sir, -will in that case, and any other of the same complexion, very gladly swear the honorable member . now. In order that everything may be done decently, and in -order-and let the honorable member take my assurance that I say this with perfect courtesy-

Mr Thomas:

– Has the honorable member ‘drawn his month’s salary ?

Mr Cameron:

– I have not received my month’s salary, sir.

Mr BARTON:

– Perhaps -the honorable member for Tasmania, Mr Cameron, will take my assurance that I mention this matter in the spirit of themost perfect courtesy. I leave it to him to say whether he did -go through the form of words administered,and whether he did kiss the Bible.

Mr Cameron:

– I did . not.

Mr BARTON:

-Then I -submit to the House that ‘the honorable member should tender himself to -the Speaker to be sworn now, in order to save any question . arising hereafter.

Mr Cameron:

– Mr. Speaker, I desire to be- sworn now.

Sir Philip fysh:

– Does the honorable member say he has mot received his salary?

Mr.Cameron. - I have-not, but I signed -for it.

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr SPEAKER:

– That is. a; question to which- I cannot take the responsibility, ofreplying.

Mr. BARTON. (Hunters-Minister for External. Affairs). - I find that after the ceremony of swearing-in had been- concluded,, the honorable member for Tasmania, Mr: Cameron, put his- signature- to the vellum which he handed to the Clerk- of the House of Representatives; and which I now produce as follows : - the PARLIAMENT of THE commonwealth. house of representatives..

I, DonaldNorman Cameron, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Edward the Seventh, his heirs and successors according to law. So help me God. donald norman. cameron.

That was handed in after the ceremony of administering the oath had been gone through. If the honorable member is of opinion he did not take the oath, although he handed in this authentication of it, then-

I take it, Mr: Speaker has no alternative but to swear him for the first time.

SUPPLY BILL

In Committee. - Consideration resumed from. June11(vide page 894).

House ofRepresentatives.

Proposed vote, £1,479.

Sir GEORGE TURNER (Balaclava,

Treasurer). - It. will be necessary, in order to carry out the desire of the committee, to alter the salary of the Speaker from £1,500, as it appears in the Estimates, to £1,100, and to alter the amount to be now voted from £2 18 to £160. I move-

That the figure “5” be omitted from . £1,500 with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figure “1,” and that- the- figures “£218” be omitted with. a. view to insert in lien thereof the figures “£160.”

– As one of the few who voted in favour of a reduction in the salaries of officers in the Senate, I wish to say at this stage that I did so because I considered that the rate of their remuneration ought to be differentiated, somewhat from the pay that is accorded to the officers in the House of Representatives. I wish to explain, in view of the possibility of divisions in connexion with these salaries, that I shall vote in favour of’ their being continued at the figures indicated here. I believe the salaries provided constitute a fair medium between the policy of economy and of efficiency, and on that account I simply wish to make clear my position, voting as I did for reductions last night, that I am prepared to support the figures submitted in connexion with the House of Representatives’ officials.

Vote agreed to.

Parliamentary Debates.

Proposed vote, £1,565.

Mr. W. H. GROOM (Darling Downs).I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether some arrangement cannot be made with regard to the printing of honorable members’ speeches, so that proof copies may be supplied to them on the day after they have been delivered 1 I do not know what the practice is in Victoria, but I will tell honorable members what is the practice in Queensland. AVe publish -the Hansard there three times a week. Let us suppose that the House meets on Tuesday. On the Wednesday afternoon, when the House again meets, every honorable member is supplied with a proof copy of his speeches of the previous day for revision and for the correction of any mistakes. The revised proofs have to be supplied to the principal shorthand writer before ten o’clock that evening. On the same evening honorable members are supplied with a revised edition of Hansard containing a complete report of Tuesday’s proceedings. I think I am justified in saying that one honorable member has shown me a Ilansard proof of his speech, and it has conveyed quite a different meaning from what the honorable member intended. In fact, the point which the speaker desired to make has been completely lost. Whether this .is owing to honorable members speaking in a low tone of voice I do not know. However, I think the practice I have indicated is a good one. We have found it exceedingly useful in Queensland, and I think honorable members would find it useful here. I ask the Prime Minister whether or not that could be done 1 It need not add very materially, to the expense. I would also like to say that’ I see nothing in this estimate with regard to the printing of Hansard.

Mr BARTON:
Protectionist

– That is done by the Government Printer.

Sir GEORGE Turner:

– -It is in the Treasurer’s department.

Mr W H GROOM:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · PROT

Sir William McMillan:

– If that system were followed, we should have nothing but debates on mistakes.

Mr Barton:

– We should have lengthy debates on the subject of the shortening of speeches.

Mr MAHON:

– I think that the practice would make the reading of the debates an easier matter for the public, and would result in considerable economy. Apart from the repor ting, theexpenseof printingcontinual repetitions is very considerable. I do not expect that my views will be accepted by the Government, but I respectfully submit that, as they find themselves obliged to appoint additional reporters, and as the resources of the printing-office cannot keep pace with the requirements of this House and the requirements of the State Parliament, my suggestion might be taken into account.

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

– I am not in favour of farming out the reporting of our debates. I wish to see the present system retained, because I think that the reporting should be absoutely within the control of Parliament. I do not know if the honorable member for Coolgardie has ever had to fight an election after he has sat as a Member of Parliament; but if so, I feel sure he will recollect that Hansard is the safeguard of the man who has been in Parliament.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not always.

Mr G B EDWARDS:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– I am glad to hear it. A great many honorable members have told me that they have never seen or experienced better reporting than has been done in connexion with this Parliament. Speaking for myself, 1 have had many years’ practical experience of reporting, and J can say the reporting of the proceedings of this House has been exceedingly good, and that the staff must be an extremely capable one. In this connexion 1 should like to suggest to the right honorable and learned gentleman at the head of the Government whether, seeing that we have a good staff, we could not later on do with less of the check note taking, and rely to some greater extent upon the more capable men upon the staff. A check note is necessary only so long as a chief is not sure of his staff, but having ascertained that the staff is capable of doing its work, this check note taking might be decreased. Can the. right honorable and learned gentleman inform the committee what is the character of the new machinery which has been ordered ? I wish to know whether it is the linotype machinery or not1?

Mr BARTON:

– Wehave some machinery arriving very soon, but there will be no linotype machinery arriving until next session.

Mr. W. H. GROOM (Darling Downs).The honorable member for Coolgardie has referred to the English Ilansard. The honorable member must recollect, however, that in connexion with the proceedings of the I

House of Commons, the great London dailies make it . a point to rival each other in publishing reports of the speeches of leading statesman. Consequently so much attention is not there paid to Ilansard. With regard to condensing the reports, the honorable member with his experience of the press should know perfectly well- that one of the rarest qualities in pressmen is ability to condense in such a way as. to give satisfaction to the speakers whom they report. I say this as a newspaper proprietor of 40 years’ experience. Perhaps the very point which the speaker himself thinks might be condensed the condenser despises, while he severely condenses a point which the speaker regards as being of great consequence. I do not say that reporters do this wilfully or perversely. The practice the honorable member has recommended was tried in Queensland, and gave the greatest dissatisfaction, until the House unanimously decided that when the Speaker was in the Chair every speech of every honorable member should be reported in the first person, and that when the House went into committee, the reporter himself should condense in the way he thought necessary. That practice has given great satisfaction. Another thing about which I wish to make a remark is that I do not despise the usefulness of Hansard. It is a mistake to suppose that Hansard is not read. In 1897 I travelled over 1,800 miles of the back-blocks of Queensland, and there was scarcely a place to which I went where I did not find Hansard. The reason for that was that we give every facility in Queensland for its circulation. The reports are issued three times a week, and honorable members can buy them for three shillings a hundred and send them to their constituents. If any local member is misrepresented in the newspapers that he does not support, or that do not support him, a reference to Hansard is his only remedy. By means of it he can place his views properly before his constituents. I speak from a large experience as to the usefulness of Hansard, not merely as a historical record of the proceedings of Parliament, but as a safety-valve for honorable members who wish to satisfy their constituents that they are doing what they conceive to be right. An honorable member behind me has suggested that honorable members should be supplied with a larger number of copies than twelve. I do not know whether that is a matter of arrangement between honorable members and the Government. In Queensland we supply every member with twelve copies, and if he wants more he can buy them for three shillings a hundred from the Government Printing Office. Here, however, Mansard is issued once a week and is consequently a bulky volume to send through the post. I wish also to say that in what I stated earlier in this discussion I had no wish to cast any reflection on any member of the Mansard staff. I know what the difficulties of reporting are, and I quite agree that the speeches of honorable members as far as this Chamber is concerned have been extremely well reported. I was not speaking personally in what I said, but the matter was brought under my notice by the observations of another honorable member.

Mr. BRUCE SMITH (Parkes). - I do not wish to prolong this debate, but at the same time 1 do not desire to be misunderstood. I have never suggested that any alteration should be made in the practice adopted by the Commonwealth Government, but what I wanted to know was whether the gentleman who has decided upon following the practice of New South Wales had really gone into the figures and ascertained that that was the cheaper method.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910

-Lyne. - We tried the other plan in New South . Wales.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I believe the other method is in use in South Australia, and what I wanted to know was whether the question had been inquired into. I knew that in suggesting a contract I should touch a raw spot on the left side of the seat I occupy ; but I am prepared to do that, because I know that when those honorable gentlemen buy their- clothes and other things they take care to adopt the principle of contract in order to know what they are to pay. We’ have not yet in this House arrived at the conclusion that we will set aside the principle of contract where we can save a certain amount of money to the public. I judge from what the Prime Minister has said that these figures have not been gone into, and that it is now too late to do so. But at the same time, 1 should have liked to know what is the relative cost of the two systems. Although honorable members may say that the contract system does not succeed in the House of Commons, my opinion is that with ‘ all the experience of the House of Commons we may take it for granted that so long as they continue a system, whether it applies to Mansard reporting or anything else, it answers the purpose of the highest Legislature in the world. I should have liked to have- some comparison made between the cost of the reporting staff and the printing as incurred in England at the present time and the cost of our own production. I take it that the comparison has never been gone into, and that therefore the information I seek is not forthcoming.

Mr MAUGER:
Melbourne Ports

– I sincerely trust that the Government will not listen to the recommendation of my honorable and learned friend opposite.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I have not recommended anything.

Mr MAUGER:

– I trust that from the outset the Government will set themselves against any contract system. I for one repudiate the idea of going to a contractor for my clothes. I never do anything of the sort, but always make it a point to see that the people who make them are paid proper wages and work under proper conditions. It is the first duty of the Government to see that the men doing this work are properly and adequately paid, whether it be for reporting, for printing work, or anything else.

An Honorable Member. - The honorable member gets his things as cheaply as he can.

Mr MAUGER:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA · PROT

– I do not.

Sir George Turner:

– Perhaps the honorable member gets them cheaper than he ought to.

Mr MAUGER:

– That is possible. I do not think my honorable friend the member for Gippsland gets his clothes as cheaply as he can without regard to other considerations ; in fact, I am sure he does not. Inregard to printing for the House of Commons, I am in communication with, a number of people in London, in my capacity as secretary to the Anti-Sweating League, and one of the complaints made in regard to printing work in England is as to the printing of Mansard and other publications for the Government. Just recently, at the instigation of the London Typographical Society, Mr. John Burns undertook to bring under the notice of the British Government the fact that their printing was done under conditions that were a disgrace to them. I therefore hope that the Government will not think of adopting the contract system.

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

– An allusion has been made to the system adopted in South Australia with regard to contracting for the reporting and printing of Hansard. That system is undoubtedly regarded by some as a benefit, inasmuch as the two daily papers which divide the contract present Hansard reports of the parliamentary proceedings day by day, so that the reports reach the whole of the constituencies. At the same time there is the disadvantage that the contract is for condensed reports, and the discretion as to the condensation is left entirely to the reporters, sometimes first-class men, but at other times juniors, who do not know much about the subjects under discussion. The consequence is that frequently

Ave hear complaints in the ‘Parliament of South Australia that the reports are not satisfactory.

Mr Crouch:

– Are the reports found to be politically coloured ?

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

– I would hardly like to say that the reports are politically coloured, but where junior reporters are permitted under a contract to condense the reports of speeches of members it is possible that some of those reporters may have their favorite members, whom they report more fully than they do other members who are not favorites. Without any reflection on either of tine daily papers in Adelaide who publish these reports, I say distinctly that in the opinion of a. very large number of members of the South Australian Legislature the system adopted is not satisfactory.

Mr Barton:

– rI can corroborate what the honorable member says from personal observation during the Federal Convention at Adelaide.

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

– There is one point, however, which, although it is not included exactly under this item, has a great deal to do with reports of the proceedings of the Federal Parliament. It has been the subject of some comment in the other States, in South Australia particularly, that the reports of the proceedings of the Federal Parliament as telegraphed to the newspapers are extremely brief. On looking into the question and inquiring from newspaper proprietors and others connected with the press, I find that the reason for these skimpy reports of the debates in the most important Parliament of Australia is that the Post and Telegraph department has not given sufficiently liberal terms for the telegraphing of reports. I do not know how honorable members who represent New South Wales, Western Australia, or Tasmania feel on this question, or what the character of the telegraphic reports given in their daily press may be.

An Honorable Member. - -Very poor.

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

– But I do know that so far as South Australia is concerned the people and the press complain that the lack of reasonable terms for telegraphing rather fuller reports leads to very little interest indeed being taken in the proceedings of this Parliament. Most honorable members will admit that that is not what we desire. I would ask the Prime Minister to give his especial attention - I do not know who represents this particular department - to the question, whether it is not advisable, in the interests of federation, that the fullest opportunity should be given to the press of the different States to have the reports telegraphed on the most liberal terms. I ask the Prime Minister to call the attention of the Postmaster-General to the question.

Mr Barton:

– I will inquire into the matter.

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

– I am sure an advance in liberality would meet with general approval from the press, and certainly from the people, of the other States.

Mr POYNTON:
South Australia

– I do not think the Premier has indicated very clearly what his intentions are in regard to what was suggested when this question was’ first opened as to issuing to members proofs of their speeches. The present method seems to me to be very cumbersome.

Mr Barton:

– Perhaps the honorable member will allow me to explain that under present circumstances, until fresh machinery arri ves, such a thing as he suggests would be utterly beyond the possibilities of the j case. Some of the new machinery is, I be lieve, now on board ship in the bay, and ! when it all arrives I will take the question

I into consideration. i Mr. POYNTON.- It seems to me that sending a complete copy of the week’s Hansard as a proof to every individual member is an expensive way of doing the business. If we carried out the suggestion of the honorable member i for Darling Downs it would be found more economical.

Mr McCAY:
Corinella

– I desire to say very few words on- this question, but the point to which I specially wish to refer is that of members correcting proofs of their speeches. Like other honorable member’s I have had more or less experience of newspaper and Hansard reporting, and of the effect of the various methods of reporting on constituents. I, like others, have sometimes found it useful to travel round with Hansard in my company in order to refute incorrect allegations. Sometimes that is a successful method, and sometimes it is not. But what I wish to draw attention to is the interjection of the Prime Minister in regard to members correcting proofs of their speeches. I should like to hear it determined that members should not be allowed to correct their speeches. I have found frequently, as no doubt many honorable members have, that if I make an appeal to Hansard in confirmation of an allegation as to what I really have said on any given occasion, especially if one happens to be on the unpopular side, it is said by one’s opponents, “ Oh, yes, we all know that you members correct your speeches and make them suit you.” That is an improper charge to make against a member ; but such charges are made, and in some quarters are believed. I have always made a point - and no doubt many other honorable members do the same - of never correcting proofs of my speeches reported in Hansard, whether they happen to be quite correct or not, because I feel it better to be able to say that the speech was as the reporter had taken it down, irrespective of any correction or alteration on my part, and not to correct what may not amount to very important errors after all. It would be a good thing if the public could know that we trusted entirely to the Hansard staff to report our speeches uncondensed. I certainly do not believe in the condensing system, because it means an omission system. AVe all know that when we are denning our position on difficult questions upon which various opinions are held by the public, the refinements are sometimes very carefully thought out and elaborated, and are perhaps almost too fine for the apprehension of the Hansard reporter in the necessarily hasty manner in which he has to take his notes. Condensation would be injurious, and it is condensation of which, as a rule, we complain when we complain of the reports in the press. I do not think the press deliberately put into a man’s mouth words he does not say ; but, in condensing, the 2’eporter may accidentally omit something, and thus considerably alter the general effect of the speech as compared with the report. I trust, therefore, that we shall have Hansard undiluted and unaltered by honorable members, and if the public can be made to understand that there is a rule in connexion with the Hansard staff that the speeches shall go through with all their imperfections, if there be any, untouched by honorable members, it will be found an advantage to have the public apprehension on the point made thoroughly clear.

Mr CAMERON:
Tasmania

– In my opinion the money to be expended on Hansard would be a great waste if the remarks 1 have heard from honorable members are to be taken as a criterion of what we have to read in Hansard. Apart from that, the suggestion made by the honorable member for South Australia (Mr. Solomon) is one to which the Prime Minister might give a considerable amount of attention. lt is well known that very little interest is, as a rule, taken in the proceedings of Parliament unless on a great public occasion when some motion arouses a considerable amount of public attention. More especially is it useless to spend money on Hansard if the reports are going to be laid by ; and if the Prime Minister can see his way to assist the press in the various States by cheapening the rates for telegraphic messages, that would be a move in the right direction. I would like to point out to honorable members the position Tasmania occupies. At the present time, members for Tasmania are empowered to send telegrams cm all lines belonging to the Commonwealth ; but unfortunately for Tasmania there is a cable connecting that State with the mainland, and members for Tasmania have to pay the cost of their telegrams over the cable whether the telegrams be on public business or not. I make no complaint on the point, because I am quite prepared to pay for my own telegrains, but constituents in Tasmania are naturally desirous of hearing what their representatives are doing, even if those representatives think it right to be sworn in a second time. I therefore trust that the Prime Minister or the PostmasterGeneral will endeavour to see that telegrams to Tasmania are sent at a reduced rate for the public prints.’

Tote agreed to. 27ie Library.

Proposed vote, £374.

Mr. McCOLL (Echuca).- It is the duty of honorable members in discussing these Estimates to guard not only against extravagance, but also against undue parsimony. Under this division there is one of the hardest cases of any officer who has been in the employ of the Victorian Government. I refer to the clerk, who is also librarian; and I make these remarks because there are so many honorable members from other States who do not know the circumstances of the case. This gentleman has been 22 years in the service of the Government of Victoria, and has filled his present position for some fifteen or sixteen years, during which time he has not received any increment whatever; his salary now being the same as when he took the position, namely £200 a year. He has a family growing around him, and the duties of his position, are of a very responsible character. He has to enter up all the letters, and is also assistant librarian, being one of the best librarians in the State of Victoria. He is a linguist and has an excellent education. His case was’ brought before the late Victorian Government of which the member for Gippsland was chief, and of which I was a member. The then Treasurer, Mr. Shiels, who was, I think, one of the hardest men ever in the Treasury out of whom to get money, was so struck by the unfairness with which this officer had been treated that he gave him a bonus of £100. Had that Government remained in office, and this officer in the service of the State, I know they would have increased his salary materially. But a change has taken place, and the officer is put down in the Estimates at the same rate of remuneration he lias received for the last fifteen or. sixteen years. We desire to give fair play all round. I am strongly in favour of economy, but at the same time I am a strong advocate of fair play, and I earnestly commend the case of this officer to the Prime Minister and the Treasurer as one deserving of additional consideration, and when the Estimates are brought down I trust it will be reconsidered, and that he will be paid something like a fair amount for the work which he does. He has to be here early-

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is time this sweating over here was stopped.

Mr McCOLL:

– I hope that the honorablemember will help us to stop it. The gentleman I am referring to cannot leave until the lights are put out in the library. I. trust that the Government will give his case fan” consideration.

Mr. BARTON (Hunter- Minister for External Affairs). - I think I can make a statement which will tend to set at rest the minds of honorable members who are interested in this matter, as I think we all are. From inquiries I have made, I think that this gentleman is not sufficiently well treated. It may be that his salary will have to be dealt with by the State Government, as the library officers are, to use a familiar phrase, being “ borrowed “ by the Federal Ministry. But, in whatever way it has to be done, I will take the matter into special consideration, and see that this gentleman is more justly treated.

Mr CRUICKSHANK:
Gwydir

– .Before we pass this vote; I should like to draw attention to the position of the librarian himself. It seems to me that £600 a year is a very high salary, especially in comparison with the salaries paid to other officers.

Mr Deakin:

– He is retiring.

Mr PIESSE:
Tasmania

– The remark made by the Attorney-General leads me to say what I wanted to say upon this item. I should like to know with regard to officers who are taken over by the Commonwealth, but who are not members of transferred departments -upon what terms their pensions, if they are entitled to pensions, will be arranged.

Mr Deakin:

– On just the same terms as departmental officers.

Mr PIESSE:

– I do not know if that is quite clear.

Sir George Turner:

– Can the honorable and learned member give us any particular cas’e? The Constitution provides for that.

Mr PIESSE:

– The Constitution provides, in section 84, that when any department in which there are officers entitled to pensions is transferred, any such officer who is retained in the service of the Commonwealth -

Shall preserveallhisexisting and accruing rights, and shall be entitled to retire from office at the time, and on the pension or retiring allowance, which would be permitted by the law of thi State if his services to the Commonwealth were a continuation of his services with the State.

This means that the rights of an officer are preserved. The succeeding portion of the section defines the position as between the Commonwealth and the State in sharing the liability to pay the pension, for it goes on to say -

Such pension or retiring allowance shall be paid to him by the Commonwealth ; but the State ahull pay to the Commonwealth a part thereof.

In the last part of this section we deal with officers taken over by the Commonwealth, who are not officers of a transferred department. The section proceeds - -A ny officer who is at the establishment of the Commonwealth in the public service of a State, and who is by consent of the Government of the State with the advice of the Executive Council thereof, transferred to the public service of the Commonwealth, shall have the same rights as if he hud been an officer of a department transferred to the Commonwealth, and were retained in the service of the Commonwealth.

There the rights of the officer are guarded and sustained ; but I do not find anything further in regard to the apportionment of the liability for the pension. The section does not go on, as it does in the preceding part, to state in what proportion ‘ the pension shall be divided between the State in which the officer formerly served and the Commonwealth in whose service he has entered lately. If it be correct that there is this difficulty, as I am inclined to think there is, it behoves the Government to be very careful how they take over officers other than officers of transferred departments, lest there may be some serious question arising in the future as to how their pensions are to be provided. I draw attention to the point because it seems necessary to do so.

Mr WINTER COOKE:
Wannon

– With regard to the heading “Books and Bookbinding,” under “contingencies,”! would like to know from the Prime Minister what arrangement hasbeen made about buyingnew books for the library. I see that an. amount of £100 is set down for this purpose. Does that amount refer to books to be provided f or the library by the Commonwealth Government ? In the past it has been the custom of the State Parliament to spend so much a year iri the purchase of books. I believe the Treasurer can tell us the exact amount.

Sir George Turner:

– It has been a comparatively small amount during late years,, because we could not help ourselves.

Mr WINTER COOKE:

– Does the item mean that the Commonwealth Government is about to start a library, or is the State of Victoria contributing new books?

Mr. BARTON (Hunter- Minister for External Affairs). - The honorable member may recollect the answer which I gave to a question asked a few days ago by the honorable member for South Sydney as to the foundation of a parliamentary library for the Commonwealth. I am now engaged in obtaining confidential suggestions from gentlemen, who are experts on this subject as to the formation of a parliamentary library, for the Commonwealth. When I get their answers I shall proceed to appoint a board or committee to make a report on the subject, and I take it that these answers will give me considerable guidance as to the manner in which I shall proceed.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Cannot the honorable and learned gentleman use the Library Committee for that purpose ?

Mr BARTON:

– Not for that purpose, because it relates to such seriousmatters as the collection of old records relating to the foundation of Australia and the foundation of the Commonwealth. As to the system which it is proper to adopt in a library, the advice of gentlemen experienced in the management of libraries is very valuable. At present we are dealing only with a vote up till 30th June. It will be expended by the Library Committee, and under the arrangement which is to prevail between Victoria and the Commonwealth, matters of this kind will pursue the ordinary course which we found in existence when we came here. At the same time, it is not intended to add materially to the Victorian library by handing over the books purchased to the State of Victoria. Any confusion of that kind will be avoided as far as possible.

An Honorable Member. - Who will own the books 1

Mr BARTON:

– If we buy any books and pay for them we mean to adhere to them, but of course there ai-e sundry magazines and things of that kind bought, which will continue to be purchased in the usual course. We need not trouble very much about them, because they represent a mere trifle. As to the future, the honorable member will see that the course I am taking has not had too much relation to the Victorian Parliamentary Library ; it will have more relation to the proper way in which the library for the Commonwealth capital shall be founded. We shall simply carry on the Victorian library in the way it has been carried on of late years, without unnecessary expense, and without parting with anything that we buy. I have looked into the point raised by the honorable and learned member for Tasmania, Mr. Piesse. It seems to me that the final part of the section does provide sufficiently for the cases mentioned. The transferred officers of whom the honorable and learned member speaks are not. officers such as the librarian. We are not taking over these latter officers, but are merely “ borrowing “ them for the present. There is no library at the Exhibition-building, and it is easy therefore for the State Government to let us have their services at the present time. The discussion of what may be done in the future may well be left for a little while.

Mr. PIESSE (Tasmania).- I partly expected that answer from the Prime Minister. There is one case in which’ an officer has been taken from a State who is not an officer of a transferred department, and there may be other cases. There is one case from Tasmania, although I am not aware that the officer in question is entitled to a pension. There may be other cases, however, where officers in the civil service of a State who are looked upon as likely to make good officers of the Commonwealth will be taken over, and the point that have suggested should therefore be taken into serious consideration.

Mr THOMSON:
North Sydney

– Perhaps the Prime Minister will inform the committee whether the heading “Expenditure” in this list covers all that the Federal Government is responsible for under the arrangement with the Victorian Govern ment - that is to say, it is not merely* for the present six months 1 May I ask if the heading covers .all the responsibility of the Federal Government to the Victorian Government?

Mr. BARTON (Hunter- Minister for External Affairs). - There will be something more to pay after this half-year has expired - and there are only eighteen days left, but under the arrangement pending with the Government of Victoria, it will be a condition that the Commonwealth Government insures the Parliamentary building up to a certain insurable value, which will be reported upon, and that they shall pay for the lighting and items of that kind. There will be some little further charge, therefore ; but it will not be of a very serious character.

Mr MCDONALD:
Kennedy

– I would like to ask if anything has been done in regard to getting the leading provincial newspapers of the different States filed in the Parliamentary Library. While we get newspapers from the metropolitan centres, the leading provincial newspapers are not to be found in the library.

An Honorable Member. - They are in the members’ room.

Mr MCDONALD:

– Take Queensland, for example. I think we ought to have in the library the provincial papers of such important centres as Darling Downs, Toowoomba, Charters Towers, Rockhampton, and Townsville. The same argument, I think, applies to the other States. The leading provincial newspapers ought to be filed in the library.

Mr Barton:

– Steps are now being taken to obtain the principal newspapers of large centres in the various States.

Mr. BRUCE SMITH (Parkes).- I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question in regard to the library. As a member of the Library Committee, do I understand that the arrangement made between the Commonwealth Government and the Speaker of the State Parliament will place in the hands of the Library Committee the management of the Parliamentary Library 1

Mr Barton:

– To the same extent as has been customary here. This Library Committee will be substituted for the Victorian Library Committee, on the understanding that the library is managed in its leading aspects in the same way as heretofore.

Mr EWING:
Richmond

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister a question. Is the House to understand that the Federal Parlip ment will make provision to keep the library up in exactly the same way as if it were in the hands of the State Parliament 1 The reason I ask is that it might be argued that the books, after being- bought, become first the property of the Federal Parliament, and subsequently the property of the State Parliament of Victoria. I think that the House will agree with me that, since we have the use of the library for the time being, the Federal Parliament can well afford to keep it up to date.

Mr BARTON:

– As I have already explained, the library will be kept up as has been customary in the past, and when the time comes for this Parliament to move elsewhere, if we have ordered books which make matters more complete in the ordinary sense of providing for a library, I have no doubt that an arrangement can be come to with the Victorian Government, who will want the books which we have collected, while we shall not want them in our library.

Mr. MAUGER (Melbourne Ports). - I should like to bring under the notice of the Government the amount of work that has been done, and the great amount of overtime that has been worked by the librarian, the clerk, and the messenger. Honorable members will agree with me that the Victorian staff have done their best to make tilings comfortable forus, and they have had to work a great deal longer than has been usual. I would therefore like the Treasurer to make a note of these services, and to grant them some reward for the extra labour and attention which their duties have demanded.

Sir George Turner:

– I will make a note of it.

Vote agreed to.

Refreshment-rooms.

Proposed vote, £89. Agreed to.

Federal Executive Council.

Proposed vote, £580.

Mr WATSON:
Bland

– I wish to. call attention to the item -

Private secretary to the Vice-President,at £400 per annum; from 19th April, 1901, £80.

– I should like to have an opinion as to whether in voting for this particular item we are confirming the appointment of the gentleman who has been the subject of discussion - whether it will be competent when the Public Service Bill is before the House to discuss these matters, or whether permanent appointments will by that time have been made ?

Mr BARTON:

Sir William Lyne:

– Mr. Salisbury held the office before Mr. Garran, and gave all his time to the duties.

Mr WATSON:

Mr Deakin:

– There is no reciprocity here.

Mr WATSON:

– It is not imperative that Ministers should continue appointing young barristers from Sydney. There is no necessity to restrict all appointments to persons from Sydney, so far as I can see. I am not referring to Mr. Flannery at all - I believe that is his name - but I am looking merely to the office, and I move -

That the figures “ £400 “ be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figures “ £ 250.”

– I have not been able to make a complete research into the Estimates of New South Wales, but on the one small matter of the previous payments made to the officer holding the corresponding position in that State, I have had placed in my hands the Estimates of the expenditure in New South Wales for 1S94, which show that the sum set apart for the secretary of the representative of the Government in the Legislative Council was £360.

Mr Watson:

– That was the one we cut down.

Mr DEAKIN:

– The Estimates show that in 1893 the amount was £250, whilst in 1S94 it was raised to £360.

Mr Watson:

– We cut it down afterwards.

Mr DEAKIN:

– That shows that practically the same amount as is now proposed was then carried in New South Wales. May I say, in answer to the honorable member for Bland, that because he has heard a recapitulation of a list of the duties assigned to this gentleman, he is not to suppose that the entire discharge of those duties rests upon his shoulders. I need scarcely say that £400 a year, or three times that amount, would not enable us to retain the services of a man in whom we could place such absolute trust. But. if the honorable member will consider for a moment, I think he will follow in the same line of thought as that just expressed by the honorable member for Gippsland. That honorable gentleman has looked at the schedule of the business set apart for the Federal Parliament in the Constitution, and has measured it with the unlimited range of legislation belonging to the State Parliament. Then he has said that within the narrow limits prescribed for the Federal Parliament surely there ‘must be less business to be done.

Mr A McLEAN:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · PROT

– It was the larger number of departments that I mentioned.

Mr DEAKIN:

– The honorable member for Gippsland and myself have had experience in administering the same State departments, and I venture to say that for the present, and for some time to come, no such strain has ever been placed upon a State Minister as is placed on Ministers of the Federal Parliament.

Mi-. McDonald. - All the members of the Ministry look very well upon it.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I beg the honorable member’s pardon. As regards the matter of expenditure, I can assure the honorable member for Bland that there is really work to be done at present in connexion with legislation that is before us which it is quite impossible for Ministers to do without the assistance of some such officer as the one under discussion. It is true that the salary is small,but that is because the gentleman holding thepositionisyoung appears to have had a brilliant university career, and it is only a young man whose services could be obtained for £400. He takes the position not so much for the salary, but for the invaluable experience which he can gain. Here we are at the beginning of what will afterwards become a federal system of jurisprudence. The training that a man occupying this position will get will enable him to return to his profession all the better equipped for his experience. I can quite understand, therefore, that he should sacrifice a portion of his income for the advantages thus conferred. This question is incidentally related to several others to come before the committee. We have heard something about extravagance. I am conscious of no extravagance or of any step towards it. Extravagance is a term that we might spread over anything. When the Scotchman said, “Bang went saxpence” after two hours’ city visiting, he thought that was extravagance. But extravagance is entirely a relative matter, and surely should be judged by the quantity and quality of the work done, but especially by its quality. The work done during the next year or two will be of the first importance. An officer of this kind, capable and energetic as he appears to be-

An Honorable Member. - We do not know the officer yet.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I have had a slight experience of him, which is all in his favour.

An Honorable Member. - Do not mix up the officer with the office.

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr THOMSON:

– That is so. But until it is known whether the position should be made a permanent one, the officer appointed, though a temporary officer, should not necessarily have to retire with the Minister who placed him in his position. I think we should avoid sill appointments of that sort. In reply to the eloquent speech of the Attorney-General, I would say that while, in my opinion, he made out a good case for this appointment, and for the salary paid, I cannot agree with his statement that the members of this House who raised the cry of economy are doing so merely because the Ministry are making appointments to which they have not been accustomed in their own States. That is not so: ‘ While we recognise that at the inception of the Commonwealth there must be a vast amount of work for Ministers to do, and that they may therefore require a great deal of assistance both clerical and professional, we do not wish to hamper the Commonwealth with permanent officers whose services will become less and less necessary, and perhaps altogether unnecessary, as time goes on. We wish it to be clearly understood that, in our opinion, unless there is good evidence that a position must be a permanent one it shall be filled, temporarily, to meet the emergencies of the moment.

Sir WILLIAM MCMILLAN (Wentworth). - I would suggest the omission of the word “private” before the word “secretary. 1 think it is clear, from the speeches which we have heard, that this officer is not a private secretary, in the sense in which the Secretary to the Prime Minister is a private secretary. We ought, therefore, either to omit the word “ private,” or the officer should be styled “ Secretary to the representative of the Government in the Senate.’”’

Mr BARTON:

– There are only eighteen days in this month to run, and of the amount set down, all but £10 has been expended.- I will see, however, that when the Estimates for the coming financial year are prepared, the designation of this officeris altered to one which will more accurately describe his duties.

An Honorable Member - Will the right honorable and learned gentleman also see that we are not committed to the continued existence of this office?

Mr BARTON:

– Yes.

Mr MCDONALD:
Kennedy

– From the last remarks of the Prime Minister, I have come to the conclusion that this officer must be purely and simply a secretary to the Vice-President of the Executive Council.

Mi-. Barton. - The Vice-President of the Executive Council, not having a portfolio, could do without a private secretary toattend to. his correspondence ; but a secretary is required in connexion with his duties as leader of the Senate. The office is wrongly described by the name given to it in these Estimates.

Mr MCDONALD:

Mr WINTER COOKE:
Wannon

– As one who has had a little experience in the Legislative Council of Victoria I feel that an appointment of this kind is very desirable. I am sure the work of the Legislative Council would have been better done in many instances if there had been such an officer attached to it. I was not aware that there was such an officer in New South Wales, but I can quite understand the work there being better don,e in consequence. With regard to the permanency of the appointment l am a little doubtful, because at present it is not known what the decision of Parliament upon the Public Service Bill will be. I certainly do not favour this officer giving up his appointment when the Minister goes out of office. I am entirely opposed to that principle. I object to the spoils system. I favour the view of some of those honorable members who spoke earlier in the debate. If the Government will tell us distinctly that the appointment will be made permanent, and that the Public Service Board will have some voice in regard to it, I shall .be satisfied. That is to say, the tenure of the appointment should be subject to whatever Parliament decides in regard to the Public Service Bill, and should not be held at the will of a Minister of the day. Certainly, £250 a year will not be anything like sufficient for the work that will require to be done. You could not get any man of any worth at all to continue in an appointment of this kind at such pay. I shall vote against the amendment, but I should like to have ah assurance from the Government that the appointment will be made permanent.

Mr ISAACS:
Indi

– I would seriously press upon the Prime Minister that he should make a distinct pronouncement as to the tenure of the positions in question ; I refer to all appointments of this character. Enough has been said - and I have listened very carefully to the speeches of honorable members on both sides - to

Mr.Wilks. -We want an opportunity of saying afterwards whether the appointment is warranted or not.

Mr Barton:

– The House will have an opportunity upon the Estimates for the year of coming to a decision of that kind.

Mr ISAACS:
INDI, VICTORIA · PROT

– And officers whose salaries are under consideration will not claim that they have been wrongly treated by the House reversing its present decision ?

Mr Barton:

– I do not think so. I do not put forward any claim of that sort.

Mr ISAACS:

– That clears the ground considerably. It will enable us to deal with the question which has been raised as to the personal character of some of the appointments. If there is a thing we may pride ourselves on in Australia - I am sure of it in Victoria, and I believe it is so in the rest of the States - it is that members of the public service always show their loyalty to the Ministry for the time being, under whom they have to serve. I think that position ought to be strengthened and not weakened. If we find any gentleman, however able, however skilled, however experienced he is, in the position that his salary from the country depends upon his retaining a particular political chief, we may be perfectly sure that his first care will be for himself : and we cannot expect the same disinterested service we have been accustomed to receive. I therefore ask the right honorable gentleman to take this matter seriously into

AnHonorableMember. - Yes, we shall.

Mr ISAACS:

-We probably shall not, and it should be open to the House to reconsider the whole question. I am gratified to hear the Prime Minister say we are not doing anything of a permanent nature - that we are now only doing what is necessary in the immediate circumstances of the moment ; and I am therefore pleased to say I shall be able to support the item as proposed by the Government.

Question - That the figures proposed to be omitted stand part of the vote - put.

The House divided.

AYES: 41

NOES: 17

Majority … …. 24

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Mr KENNEDY:
Moira

– I desire to have your ruling, sir, as to the practice to be followed when the question is put and a division is to be taken. As I understand the position at the present time, the ques-tion is put before the division, and it may be decided on the voices. In the event of a division being called for, the bells are rung but the question is not again put, notwithstanding that a number of members may be absent from the chamber when the question was first put. They come into the chamber when the bells are rung, and then the question goes to a division without being again stated to the House after the doors are locked. I simply wish to know your ruling upon this matter in order that when some critical division occurs we may know exactly the position which we occupy, and thus avoid any conflict of opinion as to what course should be pursued when any strong feeling is exhibited.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The practice which will be folio wed in committee will be that when a division has been called for, the question will be again stated. The division bells will ring, and when the doors are closed and the tellers appointed, the question will be restated.

Mr. ISAACS (Indi). - May I draw your attention, sir, to Standing Order No. ?>04, which states -

When the doors have been locked and all the members are in their places, the Speaker shall state the question to the House, and then direct the “ Ayes “ to proceed to the right of the chair, and the “ Noes “ to the left, and shall appoint two tellers for each party.

Vote agreed to.

A Administrative

Proposed vote, £1,444.

Sir WILLIAM MCMILLAN:
Wentworth

– I think that a proper consideration of this division may clear the air a good deal with regard to certain matters. I take it, Mr. Chairman, that I can refer generally to the items. It is rather curious to note, -when we take the different salaries under this heading, the position of the officer *who is called the private secretary. We have here a secretary at £800 per annum, a chief clerk at ±’600, and then conies a private secretary at £450, the next clerk receiving £250. It seems to me that the duties of these officers ought to he stated to some extent. With regard to the private secretary, it seems to me that he ought to be a permanent official of the service. I agree’ with the honorable member who said that there was no analogy between the position, of a private secretary here and that of a private secretary to an English Minister. The private secretary to an English Minister is really a private secretary, and is paid out of the Minister’s own pocket.

An HONORABLE Member. - Confidence in “regard to the Commonwealth.

Mr BARTON:

– Confidence in regard to the Commonwealth ; but, as the honorable member knows, if a man becomes your private secretary, you are apt to repose a great deal of confidence in him, while your, successor may not like a man in whom you have imposed personal confidence. It is inseparable that this personal “ confidence should exist, and it is inseparable from that condition, that a successor may not desire to have the holder of your personal confidence. So far’ as that is concerned, a gentleman of the qualifications of this one might very well look forward, if he chose to remain in the service, to have an equivalent appointment if he were not continued in his present position, and a Public Service Commissioner took what might appear to be a correct view of his duty. I have not said a word to this gentleman to cause him to think that this is a temporary appointment in the sense that he must go out with me, but I thought it a matter of honour to open his eyes to the prospect that he must not count on this as a permanent appointment, and I did so in. order that he might not enter the service of the Minister, or the Government, under a misapprehension. I thought that an honorable way in winch to treat him, and I expect, in that respect, as in others, to be sustained by the committee.

Mr WATSON:
Bland.

– I do not object at all to the Prime Minister having a private secretary, but on the plan which he has just put before the committee, it would seem that the granting to the Prime Minister of a private secretary amounts to a gradual filling of the public service, or a section of it, with gentlemen who at one time or another have been private secretaries to the different Prime Ministers who will fill the office during the next twelve or fifteen years. The right honorable and learned gentleman says that the probability is that the Public Service Commissioner who knew his duty would place the gentleman who is to be pri vate secretary to the present Prime Minister somewhere in the public service, at an equivalent salary.

Mr WATSON:

– Quite so. We should not take up the position which the Prime Minister thinks is a proper one, namely, that the Minister should be followed out of office by his private secretary. Apart from that, I do not consider that it is necessary to grant the. sum of £450 per year for the work that has to be performed by the private secretary of the Prime Minister or of any other Minister. It does not . seem to rae that the abilities required in the office justify the payment of such a large sum, and though I will not vote for the abolition of the office, I will vote for the reduction of the amount to not more than £250. I think all that is required can certainly be obtained for that sum, and the person to act as private secretary could be obtained from the officers already in the State services. But I want to move an amendment in relation to the first item in this subdivision. This item relates to the appointment of which I spoke yesterday afternoon - that of Mr. Atlee Hunt. I desire only to say with respect to that suggested appointment that I quite agree with the view put forward by the honorable member for Wentworth that the House cannot expect to make appointments of this character. I quite agree with that, but I say that the House has a right to insist that a certain line of policy shall be followed in respect to such appointments. Without canvassing the qualifications of the individual particularly affected, I think that we can lay down that a certain policy shall be’ followed with regard to all appointments where important work has to be carried out by the appointee. That line of policy, it seems to me, was well put by the honorable member for Wentworth when he said that the various State services should be exhausted in the search for experienced and capable men before the Government fall back upon men who may be capable but who undoubtedly have had no experience. That is the stand I take up in regard to this matter. I say that in this instance the State services were not exhausted. So far as I can glean, there was no attempt made to gather particulars of the qualifications of men in the various State services who might have been willing to take up a position of this importance. I do not know that any applications were invited from men in the existing services. My view is borne out by a chance remark which the Prime Minister made a little while ago. I wrote it down at the time, and it was to the effect that amongst those whose capacity he knew the right honorable and learned gentleman had appointed the man with most capacity. I ask why should the selection of a man to fill one of the most important offices in the service of the Commonwealth - that of permanent head of the Department of External Affairs, the largest and most important administration of all - be limited to those who happen to have the acquaintance of the Prime Minister 1 The right honorable gentleman does not embrace amongst his acquaintances all the capable men and all the men with experience in the different States, and yet from the right honorable and learned gentleman himself we have practically had an admission that no opportunity was given to officers in the State services to make application for this important, onerous, and high position. On that ground alone I think that we have cause for complaint. I would just like to correct an apparent error into which the Prime Minister fell yesterday afternoon, in assuming that I had instituted a comparison between Mr. Hunt and Mr. Garran. I made no such comparison. I merely stated’ that I did not object to Mr. Garran’s appointment, because it was practically a legal appointment. The work that he has to do is-, of <x legal character, connected with the AttorneyGeneral’s Department. He will not have an extensive staff to organize, and he will be concerned with work in which’ he has had a lot of experience, namely, that of drafting Bills for submission toParliament. But if Mr. Garran had been appointed to a position such as that to which Mr. Hunt has been appointed, I should have* raised exactly the same objection. Mr. Garran has not had the experience to justify his selection for such an important position in preference to men who have had theexperience, and who, in all probability, possess equal ability to discharge the duties.. I do not wish to detain the House at any great length, because I went into the matter last evening fairly fully. But I desire to test the feeling of honorable members as to whether they approve of mu. appointment of Mr. Hunt - leaving Ins personalityaside altogether - in preference to adopting the course of inviting applications from-, capable men throughout the various States, for this position. I take the ground that the Commonwealth is not likely to be so well served by the appointment of an inexperienced man as it would be if an experienced man were first given an opportunity of taking up the position. I move, with a view of testing the feeling of the House onthe subject -

That the item, ‘ ‘ Secretary at £800 per annum from 1st May, 1901, £134” be reduced by thesum of £i.

Mr. BARTON (Hunter- Minister for External Affairs). - I am not going to take up the time of the House except to correct another false impression that has been circulated. It was said, and said more than once, last evening by the honorable member for Bland, that the gentleman who holds this office, and to whom he now very properly says no reference should be made by name was named Hunt, and that he had left the public service of New South Wales because there was retrenchment going on - that, he had resigned rather than be retrenched.

Mr Watson:

– Will the honorable gentleman pardon me just a moment ? The word “retrenched” is usually taken to mean dismissed. I did not mean that he was going to be retrenched in. that sense at all. What I meant was that there was to be reduction in his salary, and that he retired rather than submit to such a reduction.

Mr BARTON:

– I perfectly understood that, and that was the sense in which I used the word “ retrenched.” The facts are these. He was offered an increase on his former salary. Whilst there was retrenchment going, on, there were also increases offered to deserving officers. The increase offered to him after his services did not seem to meet with his views, and he resigned, receiving three months’ leave on full pay, with an allowance of £60 in addition, having made up his mind to retire about September in that year, in order to study for the bar. He resigned because the regulations for the admission of barristers, then in force, provided that no student at law could, during his studentship, be a clerk in a Government office.

Mr Watson:

– Or follow any other avocation.

Mi-. BARTON.- That regulation, I take leave to say, I have always considered a barbarous one: It forced Mr. Hunt, if he intended to pursue the profession to which he thought himself destined, to leave the public service, and therefore, when sufficient remuneration by way of increase did not seem to be offered to him, he resigned his position; he did not resign because his salary was to be reduced.

Mr Watson:

– That is not my information ; but I accept the right honorable and learned gentleman’s explanation, if he has warrant for it.

Mr BARTON:

– I have perfect warrant for. it,, and I think that upon investigation the honorable member will find that it is fully borne out by the facts. The honorable member lias unintentionally fallen into a mistake in this matter, and I mention it lest further damage be done to Mr. Hunt by a wrong impression prevailing.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

Mr KNOX:

– I am sure that the Prime Minister desires to deal seriously with this question, because it affects a very large number of public servants in a very serious way. Our desire is to support the Government in the appointments which they have made, and I am prepared to accept the assurance of the Ministry that all these appointments are necessary. Honorable members are quite unaware at the present time what work has to be done by the various departments ; but I understood the Prime Minister to say that it was his intention to make these appointments only provisional, leaving, it to the authority to be created under the Public Service Bill to determine what appointments shall be permanent. That arrangement, I think, would be satisfactory to the majority of honorable members, and if it is made, I. shall have nothing more to say. I wish only to say that I desire to give a loyal support to the Government on this question. The Prime Minister has said that he requires this assistance, and so far as my vote goes he will receive it. I believe that unusual demands are made on the Prime Minister at the present time. He has special departments to organize, and very difficult work to carry through. The work will be inefficiently done unless the Prime Minister and the various Ministers in charge of other departments receive necessary assistance. I do not think economy is to be secured by cutting down necessary assistance, or by paying salaries such as will not attract the best and brainiiest men, who are most necessary in this important point in the history of the Commonwealth.

Mr BARTON:

Sir Georgie Turner:

– I said yesterday that we intended to make all these appointments permanent, the Address in Reply having been carried.

Mr ISAACS:

– I am speaking of the assurance that I asked for to-night and have obtained.

Sir George Turner:

– The Prime Minister made that statement under a misunderstanding, as he has said.

Mr ISAACS:

If in the opinion of the commissioner the servicesof any officers in excess in any department are not likely to be required in any other depart- ment, the Governor-General may call upon such officers to retire from the public service ; and every such officer so called upon to retire shall retire accordingly.

Surely that is sufficient protection. The provision is that if officers are in excess in any department they may be transferred to some other department where their services can be utilized, and where they are required ; but if it be found they are in excess in their department, power is also reserved by the Bill- and no doubt the power will be given by the House - to the Government of the day, to call on them to retire. As these gentlemen are not appointed with any pension rights, they may be called upon to retire without compensation. Surely this meets the difficulty “felt by the honorable member for Northern Melbourne and the honorable member for Indi. These honorable members feel that these . officers may possibly in a few months or a few years be found to be excess officers ; but if they are found to be so, there is ample power in the Bill to remove them.

Mr. THOMSON (North Sydney).While I have no desire to embarrass the Government in this matter, I must say that the explanation of the Treasurer does not meet my difficulty. I opposed theFegan appointment upon the one ground amongst others that for such a position the State departments should have been drawn on for a suitable man before any attempt was made to fill the appointment from outside sources. Had that been done, the difficulty, which is placing the Ministry in an awkward position now as to the permanence of the appointments, might have been overcome. It is absurdto say the State Governments would not have been perfectly ready to give the chance of promotion to any suitable officer in their service - to allow their services to be used for a given period until the Commonwealth Parliament confirmed the appointment, and to undertake to replace him in his office if the Government did not see fit to give the. confirmation.

Mr Watson:

Mr GLYNN:

Service Bill if that measure be passed. It seems to me that until those who have objected to the appointment have some grounds showing that the Government have made a corrupt and improper appointment, we must accord to the Government our confidence in their exercise of the function that the Constitution Act vests in them. We have talked for several hours, and have not arrived at any light on the subject. All sorts of confused ideas have been put forward, but, after all, unless we can show clearly that the Government have acted improperly, we ought to give them our support.

Mr. CONROY (Werriwa).- I understand a declaration has been made by the Premier to the effect that he regards this as a vote of censure. I have been absent from the chamber for about 25 minutes, and did not know the state of affairs, but in the meantime I thought it was merely a question as to the reduction of the salary of a particular office, and looking at this strictly as a salary for an office, I should have given my support to the Government. But the moment the Government ask us to support them because they made the appointment outside of the civil services of the various States, it becomes an entirely different matter. On looking through the list I find that no fewer than four of the appointments are altogether from outside the civil services. That is to say, the civil services of the various States have never been examined or looked into in order to obtain suitable men for the appointment. Seeing that, I have no alternative but to say that the conduct of the Government in making four appointments of the sort is entirely wrong ; and I must therefore record my vote against them.

Question that the item - Secretary at £800 per annum from the 1st May, 1901 i - £134, be reduced by £4 - put.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 18

NOES: 42

Majority 24

AYES

NOES

Question resolved in the negative.

Mr. McCAY (Corinella). - I wish to have my mind made quite clear upon the point I mentioned previously. Do I understand that these private secretaries will be ordinary members of the public service ? Will they be on the same footing as other members of the service 1 I quite, recognise the right of the Government, as the Executive of Parliament, to make appointments if they choose, and to do as they did just now- take the responsibility of their actions. I merely wish to understand whether these private secretaries will be on a different footing from other members of the public service 1

Mr G B EDWARDS:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– If I am in order, I should like this item to be altered by changing the designation from “private secretary” to “Ministerial secretary.”

Sir George Turner:

– Strike the word “ private “ out. That will be the simpler plan.

Mr G B EDWARDS:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– There is, no doubt whatever that such an office as the one under discussion is required, and the salary proposed for it is not too great. We certainly would not get a competent man for anything less. While I think there might possibly be some objection to this particular office .in other departments, there certainly can be none in the Prime

Minister’s Department. The reasons which the right honorable and learned gentleman at the head of the Government gave were very cogent, but the same reasons will not apply to the other departments. It is no use “urging that there is a necessity for private secretaries on account of the confidential relations which exist between the Minister and that official, because such confidential relations have existed in the past between State Ministers and their Under-Secretaries, and these relations have terminated on the retirement of the Minister from office, and have been commenced de novo with a new Minister. I can see no reason therefore why we should not have a permanent officer of the civil service as secretary to the Prime Minister. The officer would be secretary to successive Prime Ministers, who would thereby benefit by the experience which the official had gained in the public service. My objection to this item will entirely vanish if we change the designation of the officer in question, so as to get rid of the personal element. We had better make the office a permanent one. Such an officer would be of great value to the succeeding Prime Ministers, and the salary provided I think is quite small. In fact the salaries payable to these high officers of the public service have rather surprised me. Ministers have been very moderate in the amounts allocated to the various offices. I move -

– Yes ; every officer appointed by the Government will be subject to the provisions of the Bill.

Mr SALMON:

– Having received that information, I shall not detain the committee longer. I have nothing further to say in regard to the office of private secretary to the Prime Minister ; but, later on, in cases where I believe that the qualifications are not of so high a character, I shall endeavour to have a. reduction made.

Vote agreed to.

Mr Conroy:

Honorable Members. - Too late.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I put the question to the committee, and honorable members gave me their voices in the affirmative. did not hear any honorable member address the Chair.

Mr Conroy:

– I stood up.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable gentleman has on several occasions contented himself with standing up and catching my eye, but the practice to which I have been accustomed for many years in the Parliament of the State from which I come, and which I believe prevails in other Parliaments, is that when honorable members rise in their places they must address the Chairman by name.

Miscellaneous

Proposed vote, £10,171.

Mr MCDONALD:
Kennedy

– I wish to ask the Treasurer if he can give us some explanation as to how the amount of £10,000 which is set down to meet the expenses in connexion with the opening of Parliament was expended 1 I think that it was a very large sum to spend upon a one day’s show, and, from what little I saw of the opening, I do not think the country received anything like value for the money. I should like to have an explanation of how it was spent.

Honorable Members. - It is gone now.

Mr MCDONALD:

– At any rate, as a matter of courtesy, the Minister should reply when he is asked a question.

Sir GEORGE TURNER:
Protectionist

– My practice is to wait and hear all that honorablemembers have to say.

Mr MCDONALD:

Mr CONROY:

– Some of the Ministers well know that it took place. It was my first experience of parliamentary life ; but I knew enough of the ordinary courtesies of life to take care that attention should be drawn to it. Of course there were many expenses in connexion with a ceremony “like that which could not be avoided. “We are told that the actual expenditure may prove to be less than the amount we are being asked to vote, and of course we are glad to hear that the sum set down is not likely to be exceeded. I would not have taken any action in stinting the Government in regard to the expenditure on that occasion; and I rose simply to object to the manner in which the proceedings were conducted, and to the want of care bestowed upon them by the Prime Minister.

Mr. G. B. EDWARDS (South Sydney).I am very sorry that this recrimination has taken place. After all said and done, if anything of the kind to which reference has been made did occur, it must have been through an oversight. I can only say that “it seemed to me that the ceremony was as-well managed as an affair of that magnitude could have been managed. It was a noble occasion, and it was nobly celebrated. If it happened that some lady of eminence was neglected, I am sure that it must have been through an oversight. It seemed to my personal friends and to myself that- the greatest care was taken to arrange that everybody should have his proper position. I do not think we can begrudge the expenditure in connection with the -celebration of the inauguration of the Commonwealth.

Mr PIESSE:
Tasmania

– I should not have taken part in this discussion except to remove an impression in the mind of an honorable member who has spoken. He seemed to think that some slight had been placed upon certain honorable members sitting in the corners of the chamber in regard to the places allotted to them at the opening of the Federal Parliament.

Mr CONROY:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; LP from 1913

– All honorable members were affected.

Mr PIESSE:

– If there was any slight, it applied to honorable members all round the Chamber. But I do not think there was any intention to slight any honorable member. I look upon it as a matter in which the magnitude of the arrangements prevented what might otherwise have been done for the convenience of honorable members. I do not wish it to be thought for a moment that there was any slight put upon a particular class of members, whether they are called labour members or otherwise.

Vote agreed to. attorney-general.

Proposed vote, £518, agreed to. minister op home affairs.

Administrative.

– I shall support this vote, because to some extent we must rely upon the Minister. But if there is to be any under-secretary for this department, I do not see why the principal permanent officer should not be called the Secretary, and this officer the assistant or under-secretary.

Sir GEORGE TURNER:
Protectionist

– I’ think it would be better to call the officer the secretary instead of private secretary. If the honorable member for Laanecoorie will for the present withdraw his amendment, I will move one to that effect.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir George Turner) agreed to -

That the word “private” before the word “ secretary “ be omitted.

Amendment (by Mr. Solomon) proposed -

That the item “private secretary to Minister for Home Affairs at £400 per annum “ be reduced by £100.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I trust that the honorable member for Laanecoorie will not press his amendment, lt seems to me to be quite inconsistent that, having voted two larger salaries than this, we should attempt to cut down the salary of the Private Secretary to the Minister for the Home Department.

Mr Salmon:

– - It is not the man, but the salary attached to his office that I object to.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Why should this officer be considered not as worthy of his salary as two other highly paid officers of other departments whose salaries have not been attacked ? This is an officer who has worked his way up in the service in a very arduous manner. Any honorable member who has any acquaintance with him will know that he is worth .£400 a year. He is an exceedingly capable and tactful man, and has been found so judicial in his mind and temperament that many Ministers in succession have been glad to avail themselves of his services. Therefore, he is in an entirely different category from others whose salaries have been allowed to pass unchallenged, and we should be acting very churlishly and inconsistently if we made any reduction here.

Mr MAUGER:
Melbourne Ports

– I hope my honorable friend, the member for Laanecoorie, will withdraw his amendment. I have consistently opposed the reduction of fair and equitable salaries from the beginning. I give place to no man in my desire to pay good salaries, consistent with due economy. To pick out an item like this is, in my judgment, not only unfair, but exceedingly unreasonable.

Mr MCDONALD:
Kennedy

– -If the honorable member for Laanecoorie had moved that the whole amount of the salary be struck out, I would vote with him. But since he is willing that we should have this Secretary to the Minister for Home Affairs to dance attendance on the Minister, I do not see why he should not be paid the amount set down on the Estimates.

Mr Salmon:

– There are only three Ministers who have private secretaries, and they all come from New South Wales.

Mr MCDONALD:

– Before long they will all have them. The only thing I am surprisedat is that those gentlemen who are getting £400 a year have not a large staff of clerks around them by this time. I suppose, however, that that will come later on, and we may confidently expect that within the next few months they will have large staffs to assist them in their heavy duties. We have been told that the gentleman under discussion has been treated very badly in New South Wales, so badly that it was necessary to do something for him. I do not think the Commonwealth should be regarded as a sort of benevolent asylum, and I certainly object to make it one at the present time. New South Wales should have dealt out justiceto this particular officer, instead of thehonorable member for Parramatta bringing him here under his wing, for us to do it. Seeing the department is determined to have an under-secretary, I am not going tovote for the reduction of this particularperson’s salary. Another feature of the discussion is, that while private secretaries were under discussion, and they all happened to be professional men and lawyers, we found honorable and learned members, getting up and using all their influence to back their particular men as just the men for the positions. But now, when it is an unfortunate gentleman who does not happen to belong to the profession, we do not hear asolitary word of recommendation from those legal members, although some of them have been in Parliament where he has acted for Ministers for -a large number of years. Under the circumstances I will vote against the proposed amendment.

Amendment negatived. ; Sir EDWARD BRADDON (Tasmania). - I would like to ask the Treasurer whether lie will give honorable members some opportunity of expressing their opinion as to whether Ministers should draw their members’ allowance in addition to then- salary.

The right honorable gentleman said yester.day that he wished to get the opinion of honorable members on the subject, and I would be glad to know whether he will afford the necessary opportunity.

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

– lt was suggested by the acting leader of the

Opposition that the proper course would be for some member who disapproves of Ministers carrying out what is clearly the wording of the Constitution, to give -notice of. motion that Ministers should not draw the members’ allowance of £400 a year in addition to their salary. If any honorable member desires to give that notice, the Government will give it precedence in Government time to have it discussed.

Mr A McLEAN:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · PROT

– Would that not be a most ungracious course for a supporter of the Government to take ? I strongly dis- - approve of it.

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

– It is a ques- tion entirely for the House.

Vote agreed to.

The following votes were agreed to : - Electoral, £20,000 ; Miscellaneous, £98. treasurer.

Proposed vote, £18,496.

Mr. SALMON (Laanecoorie). - I notice there is an omission in the items, and would like to know if I can move that there be inserted, “Secretary to the Minister at £400 per annum.”

Mr. MCDONALD (Kennedy). - I congratulate the Treasurer on this portion of his Estimates, seeing that the usual private secretary is not provided for.

Sir WILLIAM MCMILLAN (Wentworth). - Is the £10,000 put down as advance to Treasurer, the amount which the Treasurer intends to take as a rule, or is that amount only for the present ?

Sir George Turner:

– It is only for the present. The usual vote will be about £100,000.

Mr WATSON:
Bland

– I desire to direct the attention of the Treasurer to the rate of wages paid in the Government Printing-office. In connexion with the publication of Hansard a number of temporary hands have been put on, and they are being paid for night work at the rate of one shilling per thousand ens. This is not only an absolutely unfair rate, but is below that paid in the neigbouring State of New South Wales at any rate.

Mr Mauger:

– The finding of the Wages Board has not been published yet.

Mr WATSON:

– But the Wages Board does not deal with the Government Printingoffice.

Mr Mauger:

– Then we ought to insist that the Act should apply to the Government Printing-office.

Mr WATSON:

– I am inclined to that idea, but in the meantime I would like the Treasurer to look into the matter. I do not want to delay the committee by giving details, but shall be very glad to supply these later on. I would like the Treasurer, while dealing in a fairly liberal fashion with officers appointed under these Estimates, to see that those who do the mechanical work get something like fair treatment. The amount set down to the Government Printer is certainly not large, but I presume it applies only to the 30th June.

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

– That is all. If the honorable member will kindly let me have any information I will look into the matter and discuss it with him and with the Government Printer.

Mr. MAUGER (Melbourne Ports).- I would like the Treasurer to go still further, and, as soon as the Wages Board publish their finding, to apply to the Government Printingoffice what it is proposed to apply to every printing establishment in Victoria. lt is only fair and just to the men working for the Commonwealth that this should be carried out.

Mr. MCDONALD (Kennedy). - The chairman has put this vote in one sum ; but I understood that all votes were to be put in divisions.

Honorable Members. - Let us get home.

Mr MCDONALD:

– If this vote is to be carried as a whole, the other votes should be carried as a whole also. The method may suit the Government, but it will not suit us. “

The CHAIRMAN:

– The reason for submitting the previous votes in divisions was that they covered several pages, but in this instance the divisions are all on one page, and every item is subject to discussion, just the same as though the vote were put in divisions.

Mr MCDONALD:

-If you give that as a ruling, I shall move that your ruling be disagreed to. You set down the procedure yourself in the early part of the discussion, and now you desire to change. The Estimates will be got through just as quickly by putting them in divisions, and it is just as well for us tb follow that particular course.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I have not the slightest objection.

Vote, put in divisions, and agreed to. ‘ minister for trade and customs.

Proposed vote, £31,523.

Mr O’MALLEY:
Tasmania

– This being the Estimate of expenditure under the heading of Trade and Customs, and my old chief, Mr. C. C. Kingston, being the head of that department, would it not be possible to put in a secretary for him ?

Mr PIESSE:
Tasmania

– Under the title in the first column we see “Expenditure solely for the maintenance or continuance as at the time of transfer of departments transferred to the Commonwealth.” In the event of new appointments in these departments, how would the charge be made 1 Would it be made to the particular State in which an appointment occurs, or would that be a new appointment charged pro rata among the people of the Commonwealth ? I understand that officers so taken over continue their salaries, and that the salaries would be chargeable under the terms of the Constitution to the State in the bookkeeping period, as salaries paid in the State for the maintainance of the department asat the time of transfer. But if a new appointment be made - 1 do not know whether there is any case of the kind on the Estimates - in that State in connexion with the particular department, would it be so treated, or would it be divided as a new expenditure amongst all the population of the Commonwealth.

Sir GEORGE TURNER:

– The question that my honorable and learned friend has raised is a most difficult one to determine. I have been trying to think what would be a fair way of dealing with the subject, but up to the present time I have not been able to come to a decision. When introducing the Estimates for the next financial year, I will be able to give a full explanation pf what may be done. It might be possible, and I have an idea it would be fair, just to take the actual expenditure at the time of the transfer, and say that anything extra on that should be considered as new expenditure. Another way is to try and pick out the various items of expenditure, but that would be difficult. I am giving the matter very careful consideration. I have had to deal with one or two matters not relating to salaries or anything like that, and when making the financial statement next, year I shall be able to lay before the House for ratification a scheme dealing with this matter in a fair and equitable manner. .

Sir WILLIAM MCMILLAN (Wentworth). - I do not want any particular answer just now, but I would like to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether his attention has been drawn to the question of what is net Customs revenue. By statisticians, net Customs revenue is generally looked on as the revenue after deducting everything.

Mr Kingston:

– Refunds and drawbacks.

Sir william mcmillan:

– it is a question which may affect . the right honorable gentleman’s finances in dealing with the distribution of the surplus, whether net revenue ought not to be revenue after deducting the £300,000 or £400,000 expenditure for the Customs department. I only draw the .right honorable gentleman’s attention to this matter.

Mr KINGSTON:
Minister for Trade and Customs · South Australia · Protectionist

– I take it that the net revenue, as applied to Customs duty, means the gross revenue, le3s refunds and drawbacks. As* to the question of the deduction of expenditure, the Constitution Act makes provision for the expenditure which is incurred in connexion with each particular State, on the basis referred to.

Sir William McMillan:

– That is not quite my point.

Mr CONROY:
Werriwa

– I suppose it would be impossible to get from the Treasurer the moneys drawn.

Sir George Turner:

– I have them all, and could give them, but it would be very wearying.

Mr CONROY:

– I am glad to see that there is an item here of £123 for expenses in connexion with the Federal Patents Conference in Melbourne. I shall be pleased to know whether the results of that gathering will tend to hasten the day when we shall have uniform patent laws throughout the Commonwealth?

Mr. KINGSTON (South AustraliaMinister for Trade and Customs). - Of course, the idea with reference to this Patents Conference and other conferences is that the Ministry shall be guided by official reports in the preparation of legislation, which will be introduced as soon as possible.

Vote agreed to. miscellaneous.

Proposed vote, £123.

Mr. RONALD (Southern Melbourne).I have been informed that there is a discrepancy between the salaries paid to the Custom-house officers in New South Wales and those paid to officers in Victoria, and I would like to know if it is the intention of the executive of this department to level up or level down in regard to these salaries ? The Victorian men are naturally anxious that they should be raised to the New Sou th Wales standard.

Mr Thomas:

– That is not a fact, is it ?

Mr RONALD:

– It is a fact that these officers desire uniformity, and I would like the assurance of the Minister controlling this department that the salaries will be made uniform. I have been consistently fighting against high salaries, but now that we have got to the irreducible minimum, I think we might start to level up.

Mr. KINGSTON (South AustraliaMinister for Trade and Customs). - The matter is one of very considerable difficulty, affecting as it does not only this department, but other departments which have been taken over from the different States. There are patent obstacles in the way of levelling down, and it’ may be well supposed that no Ministry would care to undertake anything of that sort. At the same time there are difficulties in the way of levelling up. Honorable members now see both sides of the question to which the Government intend to direct attention, so that they may come to a conclusion as early as they possibly can.

Mr. GLYNN (South Australia). - I would ask the Minister for Trade and Customs if he has any objection to giving us an idea as to what the Government propose to do on the day of the introduction of the Tariff? Do the)’ intend to collect at once, and if so, what will, be the effect as regards the collection between the States? I know that nothing amounting to a disclosure of the Tariff can be thought of. But if we followthe custom adopted in England, the moment the Tariff is declared the collection will take place. No harm can be done by telling the people of Australia what custom the Ministry intend to pursue upon the introduction of the Tariff. There will be no knowledgeconveyed that would not have been conveyed to the people of Australia prior to’ federation.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Will the honorable member permit me to point out that the. item before the’ committee is “ Expenses in connexion with the Federal Patents Office in Melbourne, £123.” The honorable membercannot discuss ‘ the Tariff upon that, item.

Mr GLYNN:

– Is’ it not under the. heading “Minister for Trade and Customs “ ?

The CHAIRMAN:

– Yes, but the sum of £123 only is before the committee. The* amount of £31,400 has been already voted..

Mr GLYNN:

– I merely desire to ask if the Minister for Trade and Customs, will put the people of Australia in exactly the same position as they would have occupied prior to federation. They would have known prior to federation what custom was to be pursued on the declaration of the duties. By telling us that, there will be no disclosure which would not havebeen made had federation not taken place, but at present we do not know what procedure will be followed on the introduction of the Tariff. Is the collection to take place at once, and is that act going to be interpreted by the Ministry as the imposition of duties 1 If it is, it follows by consequence that intercolonial free-trade will be regarded by the Ministry- at all events, if not by the State Treasurers, as having started from the moment of the imposition of these duties. .

Mr Crouch:

– Does the honorable and learned member not think that the less the trading community know of what is to be done the less likely they are to depart from the normal conditions of business ?

Mr GLYNN:

– I am not so sure of that. Had federation not taken place they would have known. It would be a convenience to the people of the States to know exactly what course the Government intend to pursue. This information will not involve the slightest disclosure as to the character of the Tariff. I will not press the matter very much, but I ask the Minister what is the policy of the Government in this connexion, if they have any policy ?

Mr KINGSTON (South AustraliaMinister for Trade and Customs). - I should be very glad to give the information, but for the fact that we recognise that this question is one of so delicate and grave a nature that it does not seem to be desirable to discuss it at this moment and in this way. Under the circumstances, I am sure that the’ honorable member will see that the suggestion which he has thrown out was the right one, and that is the one upon which we propose to act.

– I shall be glad to lay a copy of the arrangement upon the table. I do not think it a disadvantageous one.

Mr. MAUGER (Melbourne Ports).Might I draw the attention of the Minister of Defence to the fact that we have an Australian squadron which is very rarely seen in Hobson’s Bay. I think our children should have a chance of seeing the vessels that we pay for.

Mr Thomas:

– Does not the squadron come round here at Cup time ?

Ml-. THOMSON (North Sydney).- I should like to ask the Minister of Defence a question in connexion with the rifle clubs. The Minister has stated that the £55,000 of Victorian expenditure, which we are asked to vote, is to be spent largely in giving encouragement to rifle clubs.

Mr Watson:

– And a very good thing, too.

Mr THOMSON:

– I am of the opinion that these clubs are a very important arm of our defence forces, and that to give encouragement to them will greatly improve our defences. But the concessions and consideration now given are unequal in the different States, and I would ask the Minister if it is his intention to take into consideration at an early date the advisability of equalizing the concessions which are given in regard to railway fares, the amount of ammunition provided, the price of ammunition, and soon? Of course, if the rifle clubs are to be encouraged, the encouragement should be upon the same footing in each of the States.

Sir John Forrest:

– That is the opinion which I hold myself. I think that now that we have federation the same rules should apply in regard to rifle clubs, the purchase of ammunition, and other matters, in all the States.

Mr. CONROY (Werriwa). - I should like to draw the attention of the committee to the seriousness of this proposal to intrust this large sura of money to the Minister for Defence.

Sir George Turner:

– The Treasurer will undertake to prevent misappropriation.

Mr CONROY:

– Then I shall not detain honorable members in regard to the matter to-night.

Mr KIRWAN:
Kalgoorlie

– I wish to ask the Minister for Defence if he will grant the same facilities to the volunteer companies which have been established on the gold-fields as are granted to the volunteer companies in Perth and in other parts of Western Australia ? I ask this question because some eighteen months ago volunteer companies were formed on the gold-fields of Western Australia, but I do not think they have yet received their uniforms ; and there has been a good deal of grumbling because their military enthusiasm and ardour has been damped by the want of that encouragement to which both the volunteers themselves and the public consider that they are entitled. I do not know if the Minister is aware that the whole of the circumstances connected with the organization of these companies, and I therefore draw his attention to the matter with a view to having them put upon the same basis as other volunteer companies in Western Australia.

Mr KENNEDY:

– Then I shall not refer to them now.

Mr. MCDONALD (Kennedy). - Do I understand the Minister to say that before the commanding officer of the forces is appointed, his appointment will be laid before Parliament for approval ?

Sir John Forrest:

– No ; that cannot be done.

Mr Thomas:

– Why not?

Sir John Forrest:

– I do not think it would be desirable.

Mr Barton:

– If we do wrong, honorable members can turn us out; and the sooner the better.

Mr Thomas:

– That is an unfair position to place us in.

Mr McCay:

– Matters of legislation are for honorable members to consider, while matters of administration rest with the Ministry.

Mr MCDONALD:

– The Minister might select for the position some military man over whom he had a great deal of influence, and, as ho has already threatened to break up the Constitution if we do not give him a railway, he might be tempted to use him in that direction.

Vote agreed to.

POSTMastergNERAL

Proposed vote, £237,700.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

– I should like to draw the attention of the PostmasterGeneral to the fact that in December last an Act was passed by the “Victorian Parliament, one of whose sections provides that -

From the commencement of this Act every officer of the….. Post and Telegraph departments shall be entitled to receive a salary equal to the highest salary then payable to an officer of corresponding position in any Australian colony - provided that that salary does not exceed £156 per annum. There are about 650 persons in the Post and Telegraph department of this State who are entitled to the benefits of that Act, but they have not yet received them. The matter has been referred to, but we have been told that the Public Service Board are considering the ‘ question. Some men are working for £7S, others for £90, and others for £132, when, they are entitled to get £156. It is a. peculiar tiling to me that under the same Act one officer has received an increase of £200 and another an increase of £S4r making his salary £300. Under the same Act when certain officers in the Postal department have received an increase,, the men in the lower paid branches havenot. I want to know why it has not been, given. Then there are other workers in thePostoffice and Telegraph department. Temporary porters are employed there at less, than the minimum that is given to thepermanent hands. I think when temporary men are employed they should receive at least the minimum. Thesemen are working for 5s. a day. They have been compelled to work for it . for the last three months. They have nob . received a half-holiday, like the permanent men. They asked for it during the visit of the Duke of Cornwall and York, but it was not granted. I think they are entitled to the half-holiday just as well as the permanent men. In the case of the temporary telegraph porters the maximum is £84. According to a section of the Act No. 1721 they areentitled to the same salary as is paid in any other State. In New South Wales the salary is considerably higher. 1 ask the Minister- - to urge tins matter on the attention of thePublic Service Board, in the interests of thelower paid men in this department, and tofind out exactly why they cannot receive - the increase they were entitled to by law before they were transferred.

Mr. D. THOMSON (North Sydney).It is hardly correct to say that the lettersorters in New South Wales are classed as unskilled labourers. They are put in the general division. At the same time I quite agree that when many of them are employed in the clerical work of the department to some considerable extent, they will have some reason to . claim to be classified as they are in Queensland as belonging to the clerical division.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Resolution reported and agreed to.

Sir GEORGE TURNER (BalaclavaTreasurer). - I am anxious to get this Bill sent away so that it will get to another place and be dealt with in time, because I am absolutely blocked ; I cannot go on paying. In addition to that I have to send warrants which I cannot sign until the Bill becomes law. For instance, to Western Australia and other far off places I have to send warrants, and then they have to be signed by the Governors, which takes some’ little time. I am anxious that all should be paid as quickly as possible, and that the States especially on the 30th June should be able to get their balance back to the very hour. So far, I have been able to pay the States their balance on the very day it was due, and it is more important that it should be paid on the 30th June than at any other period of the year. Under those circumstances, I trust-that the House will help me to get the ‘Bill through. With that object I move -

That the standing orders be suspended in order to enable all steps to be taken to pass a Supply Bill through all its stages without delay.

Question resolved in the affirmative.-

In Committee of Way and. Means.

Resolved - Thattowardsmaking good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the period ending the 30th June, 1901, the sum of £491,882- be granted out of the Cansolidated Reveuue Fund.

Resolution reported and agreed to.

Bill, founded on resolutions of Committees of Supply and Ways and Means, brought in and read a first and second time.

In Committee

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Preamble.- Most Gracious Sovereign -

We Your Majesty’s most . dutiful and loyal subjects the House of Representatives in Parlia ment assembled towards making good the supply which we have cheerfully granted to Your Majesty in this Session of Parliament have resolved to grant unto Your Majesty the sum hereinafter mentioned and do therefore most humbly beseech Your Majesty that it may be enacted : And he it enacted by the King’s Most Excellent. Majesty and the Senate and the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Australia in Parliament assembled as fol- lows:-

Sir GEORGE TURNER:
Protectionist

– Some diffi culty arose the other night as to what the form of the enacting part of our Bill should be, and various suggestions were made. [The Attorney-Genera], after considering the question, has come to the conclusion that the proper form will be -

And be it enacted by the King’s Most Excellent Majesty and the Senate and the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Australia as follows : -

Therefore I move -

That the words “ in Parliament assembled,” line 1 3, be omitted.

Mr BARTON:
Protectionist

– The ordinary parliamentary understanding is that the House which has the power of originating supply uses some form such as this which’ we have adopted.It is not absolutely necessary that it should ‘be in the precatory- form, as the honorable member has pointed’ out- though it is a time-honoured form. But the words “and do therefore most humbly beseech your Majesty “ may be left out. I have no objection to that. Notwithstanding that the King is an enacting-part of the Parliament, the House of Commons, for the preservation of its own independence, has always endeavoured to preserve the understanding that what is voted by it is a free gift to the Crown. Not that it rises out of any action of the Crown, but constitutionally it is the unsought support of -the Crown- by the Commons. That is the reason for the form that is used here. It may be an inadequate reason, but it enables it to be made known that this is the free gift of the Commons to the Crown. I do not think it would be a wise thing to depart from that;” To leave out the words I have already cited might, however, satisfy the honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn.

Mr Glynn:

– Certainly. I did not intend my remarks to apply to the first portion, for the very reason given by the Prime Minister.

Amendment (by Mr. Barton) agreed to -

That the words “and do therefore most humbly beseech your Majesty that it may be enacted and “ be omitted ; and that the word “ therefore “ be substituted.

Amendment (by Sir GEORGE Turner) agreed to -

That the words ‘ ‘ In Parliament assembled “ be omitted.

Bill reported with amendments ; report adopted.

Bill read the third time;

Mr SPEAKER:

– Under the standing -orders which have been adopted no other motion is necessary.

House adjourned at 12.10 a.m. (Thursday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 12 June 1901, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1901/19010612_reps_1_1/>.

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House of Representatives12 June 1901

PRESENTATION OF ADDRESS TO THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL

Mr SPEAKER:

HOPETOUN,

QUESTION

IMPORTS

Mr A C GROOM:FLINDERS, VICTORIA · FT

Mr KINGSTON:Minister for Trade and Customs · SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

THE OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

Mr CAMERON:TASMANIA

Mr BARTON:Minister for External Affairs · HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr McDonald:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr McDonald:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr Watson:

Mr CAMERON:

Mr Thomas:

Mr Cameron:

Mr BARTON:

Mr Cameron:

Mr BARTON:

Mr Cameron:

Sir Philip fysh:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr McDONALD:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr Thomas:

Mr McDONALD:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr McDONALD:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr McDONALD:

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr SPEAKER:

APPEALS BY POST. OFFICE EMPLOYES

Sir PHILIP FYSH:Free Trade

QUESTION

ARREARS OF SALARY IN POSTAL DEPARTMENT

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Sir PHILIP FYSH:Free Trade

SUPPLY BILL

Mr MCDONALD:Kennedy

Mr BARTON:Minister for External Affairs · Hunter · Protectionist

Mr Watson:

Mr BARTON:

Mr A McLEAN:GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr Watson:

Mr McLean:

Mr Watson:

The CHAIRMAN:

Mr McLEAN:

Mr FOWLER:Perth

Mr BARTON:Protectionist

Sir GEORGE Turner:

Mr W H GROOM:DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · PROT

Sir WILLIAM McMillan:

Mr BARTON:

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Barton:

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Watson:

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr WATSON:Bland

Mr Mauger:

Mr WATSON:

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr McCOLL:Echuca

Mr Thomas:

Mr McCOLL:

House of Representatives
12 June 1901

Mr A C GROOM:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · FT

Mr KINGSTON:
Minister for Trade and Customs · SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · Protectionist

Mr CAMERON:
TASMANIA

Mr BARTON:
Minister for External Affairs · HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Sir PHILIP FYSH:
Free Trade

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Sir PHILIP FYSH:
Free Trade

Mr MCDONALD:
Kennedy

Mr BARTON:
Minister for External Affairs · Hunter · Protectionist

Mr A McLEAN:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

Mr BARTON:
Protectionist

Mr W H GROOM:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · PROT

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr WATSON:
Bland

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr McCOLL:
Echuca

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr G B EDWARDS:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr W H GROOM:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · PROT

Mr G B EDWARDS:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr MAUGER:
Melbourne Ports

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr MAUGER:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

Mr V L SOLOMON:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · FT

Mr POYNTON:
South Australia

Mr McCAY:
Corinella

Mr CAMERON:
Tasmania

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr CRUICKSHANK:
Gwydir

Mr PIESSE:
Tasmania

Mr WINTER COOKE:
Wannon

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917