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Senate
21 March 1928

10^th Parliament · 1^st Session

PAPER
- Public Service Act - Appointments - Department of Trade and Customs. - J. C. Just, H. J. Clare, F. K. Baxter, A. E. Whyte, and E. H. Dial
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH AND COMMONWEALTH BANK EMPLOYEES
FEDERAL CAPITAL:
- Transport Service
QUESTION
- CIVIL AVIATION
QUESTION
- POSTAL MOTOR CARS
QUESTION
- PENNY WIRELESS MESSAGES
QUESTION
- QUEENSLAND’S COTTON CROP
QUESTION
- CUSTOMS TARIFF
FINANCIAL AGREEMENT BILL
ADJOURNMENT
- Beam Wireless; - Postmaster-General’s Department : Annual Report

The President (Senator the Hon. Sir John Newlands) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 3936

PAPER

The. following paper was presented : -

Public Service Act - Appointments - Department of Trade and Customs. - J. C. Just, H. J. Clare, F. K. Baxter, A. E. Whyte, and E. H. Dial

page 3936

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH AND COMMONWEALTH BANK EMPLOYEES

What is the number of males and females respectively who are employed in (a) the Public Service of the Commonwealth, (b) the Commonwealth Bank?

I am now in a position to furnish the following replies : -

The Public Service Board advises that the total number of permanent officers employed in the Public Service of the Commonwealth at 30th June, 1927, was : -

The Governor of the Commonwealth Bank advises that the total number of males employed by the Commonwealth Bank is 1,731, and the total number of females’, 975.

Information in regard to male and female temporary and exempt employees is not available in the Public Service Board’s office, but is being obtained and’ will be furnished at a later date.

page 3937

FEDERAL CAPITAL:

Transport Service

Howmany new buses have been purchased recently by the Federal Capital Commission?
Were tenders called for?
When were the buses put into commission ?
What was the price paid for the chassis?
Who are the agents for the buses? 6 Have there been any breakages in connexion with the new buses; if so, what was the nature of such breakages, and. how much has been spent on repairs? 7 Is it a fact that these buses will not accommodate more than seventeen passengers each ?
Is it not a fact that these buses are totally unsuitable for the work they are called upon to do?

I have now received the following answers from the Minister for Home and Territories : -

Four.
Yes.
The new service commenced ‘on 1st March. 1928.
The chassis were not purchased separately. The price paid for each bus complete was £744 15s.
Dalgety and Company Limited,
Yes.
1. Flexible couplings on bus. No. 8 were repaired at cost of £3 2s. 3d.
2. Selector gear on bus No. 11 was repaired at a cost of £3 2s. 8d.
3. Self-starter on bus No. 10 broke and is being replaced at no cost to the Commission.
The stipulated number of passengers for each bus is seventeen.
No.

page 3937

QUESTION

CIVIL AVIATION

Cost: Staff and Duties of Staff: Aerodrome for Canberra

Senator GUTHRIE:
Senator Elliott · through

asked the Minister for Defence. upon notice -

Why is it that little or no encouragement to aviation has been given at the seat of the Federal Governmentof Australia?
How long will it before a properlyequipped aerodrome is ‘ established in the Federal Capital Territory with the necessary hangars, &c?
What is the annual expenditure by the Commonwealth Government on civil aviation in Australia?
What is the total personnel attached to the Civil Aviation Department?
What are their duties?
Would the Minister be in favour of civil aviation being dissociated from the Defence Department? .

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as follows: -

Although Canberrais situated on one of the approved aerial highways that are to be organized in due course, it has not been practicable so far to commence preparation of it as such.
It is hoped that the negotiations between the Defence Department and the Federal Capital Commission in regard to the terms and conditions of tenure of an aerodrome site near Canberra will be finalized shortly.
The expenditure during 1924-25 was £104,734; 1925-26, £113,588; 1926-27, £111,669; estimated expenditure for 1927-28, £134,000.
Professional and administrative staff (central), 5; technical inspectional staff, 4; clerical staff,6; typistcs. 4; total, 19 (exclusive of caretakers at government terminal aerodromes ) .
The Civil Aviation Branch, under the Minister for Defence, is responsible for (a) the administration of the . Air Navigation Regulations which were framed to enable an adequate measure of control over the operations of civil aircraft within the Commonwealth and Territories; (6) the expenditure of the funds voted annually for the maintenance of regular air services, aerial routes, flying training organizations and other activities, and the investigation of proposals for further development (within the limits of the annual Civil Aviation appropriation).

To facilitate the discharge of these functions, the Civil Aviation Branch is divided into three sections, viz. : - s

Flying Operations. - (Aerial navigation, licensing of pilots, supervision of the activities of air service contractors and, the . various flying training organizations ) ;
Aircraft. - (Registration and periodical inspection of aircraft to ensure theirmaintenance in airworthy condition; the examination and licensing of aircraft ground engineers, and generally to advise on all technical matters affecting aircraft and aero engines) ;
Aerodromes. - (The maintenance of existing)!, aerodromes, emergency landing grounds and buildings; preliminary surveys of proposed new routes and the submission of recommendations for their preparation: issue of aerial strip maps and plans of landings grounds ; leases and/or acquisitions of sites for new aerodromes and emergency landing grounds).
1. It is not customary to deal with matters of policy in answers to Questions in Parliament.

page 3938

QUESTION

POSTAL MOTOR CARS

Senator GUTHRIE (through Senator

Elliott) asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

When will the Postmaster-General’s Department replace the many foreign cars and trucks now owned by the department with those of British manufacture?

Senator McLACHLAN:
Honorary Minister · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The PostmasterGeneral has supplied the following answer to the honorable senator’s question : -

It cannot be said when the ten cars and eight trucks of foreign manufacture will be replaced by those of British manufacture. The department’s policy is to give preference to British motor vehicles over those of foreign make. Some of the foreign vehicles were purchased several years ago.

page 3938

QUESTION

PENNY WIRELESS MESSAGES

Terminal Charges

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

What is the loss or profit on the working of the “ Beam “ section of the Amalgamated Wireless Co.?
What would be the financial result of the “ Beam “ with a traffic of 25,000,000 words at a flat rate of1d. a word?
What is the amount received by the department for terminal charges from the wireless and cable companies?
What is the average charge per word?
What would bethe amount received on a flat rate of1d. a word on present traffic?

Senator McLACHLAN:
NAT

– The PostmasterGeneral has . supplied the following answer to the honorable senator’s question : -

The information ‘ is not available in the Postmaster-General’sDepartment.
See answer to No. 1.
£184,672 (approximate annual rate).
1.54d.
£119,934 per annum.

page 3938

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND’S COTTON CROP

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the whole of last year’s Queensland cotton crop was purchased by Australian mills, and that up to the present the mills have used but little of that crop?
Is it a fact that the cotton crop to be shortly harvested, in Queensland is almost double that of last year, and that at present there is no demand for the crop in Australia? ‘
If so, what are the reasons?

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

– The answers to the honorable senator’s- questions are as follow: -

Almost all the lint produced from last year’s Queensland seed-cotton crop was purchased by Australian manufacturers. Approximately one-third of this lint has been used to date.
This year’s crop is expected to produce about 13,000,000 lb. of seed cotton, as against 7,059,000 lb. last year. It is understood that Australian manufacturers have not yet arranged to buy any of this season’s lint.
Last year apparently, manufacturers purchased lint on the expectation of a larger trade than has since ‘ occurred, and now have sufficient of last year’s lint to cover their requirements for some time to come.

page 3938

QUESTION

CUSTOMS TARIFF

In committee (Consideration resumed from 16th March, vide page 3907).

The Schedule

Division X. - Wood, Wicker and Cane

Item 291

By omitting the whole of sub-item (f) and inserting in its stead the following subitem : -

Andon and after 10th December, 1927 -

’ Timber, undressed, n.e.i.. in sizes of 12 inches x 0 inches (or its equivalent) and over -
1. Other, per 100 super feet, British, 8s.; intermediate, 8s.; general, 8s.

Senator CHAPMAN:
South Australia

– What I have to say to-day will be in justification of a statement which I made when last speaking on this item to the effect that some honorable senators appeared to have been influenced by the large number of telegrams and letters they had received, and that I had good reason to believe that those telegrams and letters were not spontaneous, but had been sent at the request of some one, and were, therefore, inspired. If I received a large number of spontaneous letters and telegrams stating that certain proposals before this branch of the legislature were going to injure business, I should take a good deal of notice of them; otherwise I would not be influenced by them, and would throw them in the wastepaper basket. As I had good reason to believe that these letters and telegrams were inspired, I thought it my duty to give expression to that belief. I received a somewhat severe catigation for doing so, but I have since been able to obtain copies of circulars which should convince honorable senators that these communications were not spontaneous. For the information of the committee, I wish to quote the following from the circular issued by the Hardwood Millers’ Association of Victoria, dated 27th February, 1928-

Tariff Fight

I urge you to write a personal letter to each of your six senators, asking their support in retaining the duties as imposed by the House of Representatives. . Please send these letters at once. … Do not make your letters too long, but be sure to express the bad position we are in.

Senator CHAPMAN:

– I should rather not introduce any names. I know that any one has a perfect right to send such communications. I am not questioning that right ; but I maintain that honorable senators are being influenced by telegrams and letters which are being sent in response to such communications. I therefore feel it my duty to bring thematter before the committee.

Senator Hoare:

– What influence does the honorable senator think they have upon the senators?

Senator CHAPMAN:

– They have a very great influence; that has been admitted by some honorable senators.

Senator NeedhaM:

– What has this to do with the item before the committee?

SenatorKingsmill. - A good deal.

Senator CHAPMAN:

– It is relevant to the item. The Associated Country Sawinillers of New South Wales issued a circular letter dated 27th February, 1928, in which the ‘ following appears -

Therefore each saw-miller in the State should at once either send an urgent telegram or write to his Federal member, asking him to take such action as may be necessary to support the Australian country saw-miller at the present juncture. . . . We want to all be up and doing, and not only communicate with the senators at Canberra whose names are at the bottom of this circular, but also write letters and/or send telegrams to the federal members for your- districts. Hoping that steps will be taken to prevent this misleading propaganda from doing an injury to an industry which is languishing….. Do not fail to do something, and do it immediately.

I understand in the first place all Philippine Island timber must carry a certificate that it is 90 days seasoned, or failing that, that it has been at least twelve days Id hotair drying kilns, ‘both of which processes destroy the borer. It must also be accompanied by a certificate from the American Forestry Department that it was free from borer “when shipped. On arrival here no furniture timber is allowed to enter the country until the Quarantine Department gives it clearance. I understand that the regulations were afterwards relaxed in regard to certain building timbers because they are immune from the borer, but that they still apply to timber used in the manufacture of furniture. In the Statutory Rules for 1927 we find the following: -

No person shall, import any timber (whether logs or sawn timber) unless he has given notice to the Quarantine Officer at the port of landing in accordance with the following form, which shall be printed on blue paper.

These are the only points which I wish to bring before the committee.

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

– When I was speaking during my second period of fifteen minutes, allowed me under the Standing Orders, I mentioned that I intended, first of all, to deal with the forestry aspect of the matter. This I did, and I think conclusively proved that responsible foresters in Australia view with alarm the increased cutting of hardwood timbers which will bo necessary if these duties are imposed. I said at the time that I would deal with an important portion of the Tariff Board’s report, and I asked in what way circumstances had changed since that exhaustive inquiry was made to justify the failure of the Government to be guided by it. Another portion of that document is extremely interesting. In the first place, so as to indicate the attitude taken up by certain witnesses before the Tariff Board, I should like to quote the following evidence given by the representative not of the South Australian Timber Workers’ Union but of the Australian Timber Workers’ Union : jo,

I am instructed to request that the Tariff Board will take into consideration the reduction in duty on 12 x G Oregon from 4s. to 3s. We contend that as long as timber comes in bulk, we will have the work of cutting it up.

– The letter says -

My company find it most difficult to obtain ordinary general stocks, for which it has to pay 30s. per 100 feet, and it is offering considerably more for crossarms, without results. The Government appointed a tariff ‘ commission, who thoroughly and exhaustively investigated the timber tariff and brought down certain well-considered proposals. The Minister for Customs apparently did not see fit to accept those recommendations, and by a stroke of the pen just doubled the existing duties and ignored the report altogether. Surely the Minister’s duty was to place the Tariff Commission’s recommendations before the House, and let it decide; otherwise where is the justification for the appointment of a very expensive commission. You will have to deal with this important question in a few days, and I say deliberately that the trade as a whole had confidence in the Tariff Commission, and would have accepted their decision without demur; but, if the Minister’s high-handed action is confirmed, then we lose our respect and confidence in those who support such a person.

It goes on to say -

Increased Duties won’t help. - My company is now, I believe, the largest home-building concern in tlie Commonwealth. It supplies and erects homes all over Queensland, from the Gulf. to the Tweed, and, if I could obtain its timber requirements locally, I would do so. I have two large sawmills in the country capable of cutting over 30,000 feet daily. They are both closed down permanently and the machinery is for sale. The sole reason for closure was because the timber supplies have been exhausted. An endeavour was made to secure supplies in other districts, and I was prepared to move the mills; but the Government would give no assurance of supplies. My company was forced to import through no fault of its own. The dreadful neglect of the present and past governments of this unfortunate State has placed timber merchants in this unhappy position.

I shall not flog a dead horse any longer. I move -

That the House of Representatives be requested to make the duties, sub-item f (3), British, 5s.; intermediate, 5s.; general, Gs.

Senator FINDLEY (Victoria) [3.381. - I rise to answer certain statements made by Senator Kingsmill, that are not in accordance with the facts. That honorable senator quoted extensively from a report of the Director-General of Forests, Mr. Lane-Poole, and endeavoured to lead honorable senators to believe that Australia has not a sufficient supply of hardwood to cope with her requirements. I cannot speak for the timber industry of Australia as a whole, but I can. speak with some authority regarding Victoria. When the statement was published that we had an insufficient supply of hardwood, the people who are engaged in the timber industry in Victoria were naturally more or less incensed. Whatever justification Senator Kingsmill might have had for making his statement applicable to the other States, he certainly was not justified in applying it to Victoria.

Senator J B Hayes:

– The same is true of Tasmania.

Senator FINDLEY:

– In that case the statement of the Director-General of Forests is clearly incorrect. In view of the belief held by some honorable senators that there is a very meagre supply of matured milling timber in Australia I desire to read the following report by Mr. D. Ingle, the Commissioner of Forests for Victoria.

Statements having been made publicly that this State has very meagre supplies left in the forests of matured milling timbers, and that, therefore, importations of softwoods should be encouraged in order to eke out as long as possible what are remaining, it has occurred to me that the present position should be reviewed in order to relieve any anxiety which may have arisen regarding this important matter.

It is unfortunate that visiting foresters, in almost every instance, have based their calculations and conclusions on hearsay evidence, instead of gaining the knowledge required on the subject by actual personal inspections. . .

When it is considered that most, if not all, of the forestry experts, who have visited this State from overseas, and who in books, pamphlets, reports to governments and newspapers, stated their erroneous conclusions, have only spent, at the most, a few weeks in the State and it is not possible for any one to obtain an authentic knowledge of the timber resources of this country in less than as many years as have been numbered in weeks by the visitors who have had the temerity to publicly sum up the forestry position here.

In 1923-24 the total output of hardwood (‘milled timber) was 108,000,000 super feet; but, owing to the low price of inferior softwoods, only 87,257,456 super feet were cut in 1920-27 and 82,000,000 in 1925-20.

It is quite safe, however, to say that in this State there are supplies of mature hardwood which would produce the peak requirements of 1923-24, viz., .108,000,000 (annually) for at least 45 years. These supplies would comprise the best of furniture, flooring, weatherboards, scantlings, bridge, sleeper, pile and pole timber; at their worst, these trees would give better service than tlie imported softwoods.

It may be pointed out, also, that in all parts of the State where milling operations have been carried on years ago, the regenerated forests, which have been highly improved, large areas of pines have been planted and within 45 years - the estimated life of the existing mature hardwood reserves - these plantations will be ready for use.

The suggestion that the matured forests of Victoria are almost depleted is without foundation, and. utterly absurd, because in addition to the areas in the Yea, Alexandra, Warburton, Upper Yarra, Noojee, Tangil .and Baw Baw districts, which are now being exploited and will produce the hardwood requirements of tb is State, estimated at about 100,000,000 super feet per annum for a period of 20 years, there are the virgin matured forests in the watersheds of the Mitchell, Tambo, Timbarra and Buchan rivers^ containing 178,000 acres, which will supply our requirements for at least a further 20 to 25 years, and further east is the remainder of the county of Croajingolong, comprising approximately 1,000,000 acres and carrying matured eucalypts throughout, so it ‘is plain that, for the period stated- 45 year/sl.at least - there will be no dearth of mature hardwood in Victoria, and the probabilities are that, as the old cutout forests are being regenerated, that period may be greatly extended.

This statement is compiled from facts gained by 30 years of personal inspection, not from hearsay statements made by irresponsible persons.

Senator DUNCAN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– That does not answer Senator Kingsmill’s contention.

Senator FINDLEY:

– The statement may not be acceptable to Senator Duncan, who, though evidently not interested in thedevelopment of the timber industry in Australia may yet be interested in thetimber industry abroad. Opponents of these duties say that they will increase the cost of houses, thus placing an additional burden upon the workers. That statement is not in accordance with fact.

Senator Carroll:

– The Minister admitted that they would do so.

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator LYNCH:

-When we were last dealing with the tariff, I protested against the frivolous way in which the Government was treating the Senate by not supplying honorable senators with information. As a result of my protest we had placed in our hands not a Government publication but a statement by Mr. Ambrose Pratt, issued and published in the manufacturing interests of Australia. It is a partisan publication. It is a pity that the method which, as I have indicated, was adopted by a previous government, has not been copied by the present administration. This tariff has simply been heaved at us, and we have been asked to swallow it. There is an old saying that one man can take a horse to water but .ten men cannot make it drink. This country will not become prosperous by piling up rates of duty. The diminishing acreage under wheat tells its. own story. Paper is cheap, ink is cheap, cleri- eai labour is cheap, and ministerial arguments are the cheapest of all. There is no reason why we should not get more information than that which has been heaved at us on this occasion. What has the Senate done that it has not been supplied with the detailst o which it is entitled ? When we are asked to double the duties on timber, and” call upon the users of timber to pay an additional £750,000 for their requirements, Senator Findley, of course, says “ Hear, hear “ ; but surely there is in the community an overwhelming number of silent patient citizens who will not applaud. Will the imposition of extra duties on timber have any different result from that which was achieved by doubling the duties some years ago. It is time we faced the matter squarely; it is time we made people live within their means and compete without the shelter afforded by a tariff 100 per cent, and not 400 per cent, higher than that which previously operated. I feel that my voice is like that of one crying in the wilderness, and that this insanity will continue until a rude awakening comes. Even now, however, we can see gleams of sunlight on the murky horizon. There are in this country some who are awakening to the fact that this drift must not continue. We know that the cost of building houses for the Victorian State Savings Bank is about double what it was in the early nineties just before the- financial crash came. According to Senator Findley rents have- not risen, or if they have the increase has been trifling. As a matter of fact rents in Australia have risen by 15 per cent, since 1921, while in the same period the average wage paid in Australia has only risen from 94s. lid. to 99s., an. increase of 4 per cent. We are asked to agree to an increase of duty amounting to 100 per cent. The Government should supply the committee with all information at its disposal instead of compelling honorable senators to fish around to obtain it. I have given the other side of the picture in connexion with this industry, and have shown that although wages have increased by only 4 per cent., the Government wishes us to support timber duties equivalent to, 100 per cent. Where is the warrant for this? When is consideration to be given to the man on the land who rises early in the morning and works until late at night and who does not receive any benefit from tariff duties ? How is he to get on ? In various ways he will have to pay these increased duties. It will not. be long before the burden becomes so heavy that these men will devote their energies to other activities where the conditions of life are much easier. If they do I shall not blame them; but when they do, production will diminish and the prosperity of the country will be seriously impaired. Why should they be compelled to work long hours whilst other sections of the community are sailing along smoothly and receiving protection and assistance which is denied to them? Notwithstanding the arduous nature of their work, Governments, of which this is a sample, have the audacity to impose high duties which these sturdy workers on the land will have to pay. The Government increased these duties without a scintilla of evidence in support of its action. Where are these ‘ industries which we are being..,asked to support ? The only trace we can find of many of them is in a back room in some city building.

– All the for- ‘estry officers recommend that we should conserve our supplies, but although it may seem paradoxical, the only way to save our timber is by cutting and using it. When Mr. Lane-Poole was Conservator of Forests in Western Australia, he said -

Between 500,000 and 7/50,000 tons of utilizable woods are being burned by sawmillers every year.

He recommended the imposition of a duty, and went on to say -

I should welcome a revision of the tariff and would like to see so heavy a duty placed on imported woods as to force the community throughout Australia to use its own wood.

– Hays. - The answer is obvious. The duties have not yet been ratified by Parliament.

Senator DUNCAN:

– But they have been operative, as I have stated, for many months, and there has been ample time for their influence to be felt.

Senator Reid:

– Is it not a fact that the majority of the sawmills had large stocks on hand when the duties were imposed ?

Senator- DUNCAN.- But the new duties have not checked foreign importations to any extent, and therefore we may presume that their ratification now will not, as has been stated, mean prosperity for the industry. All that they will do will be to increase the cost to users of timber in Australia.

Senator GRAHAM (Western Australia [4.30]. - I was not surprised to hear Senator Duncan speak in support of foreign timber importers. He appears to be an advocate of everything foreign, including foreign socks.

Senator Duncan:

Senator GRAHAM:

– I am not so sure that that is the principal reason for its use in mines in the eastern States. In

Western Australia, jarrah, jam, and salmon gum are used in the mines. I could take honorable senators to many public buildings in Kalgoorlie that were erected 25 or 30 years ago, with Western Australian hardwood. That timber is as perfect to-day as it was on the day when it was put into the buildings. The Leader of the Senate (Senator Sir George Pearce), who is an authority on timbers, will bear me out when I say that our hardwoods in Western Australia will stand up to any tests required of them.

Senator Thompson:

– Does not the honorable senator think that the imposition of these duties will be reflected in the higher price of hardwood timber for mining?

Senator GRAHAM:

– Not at all. We have millions of feet of …good timber available. If the imposition of a still higher duty on imported timber would lead to the cutting of a greater quantity of our own timber, and keep our mills working full time, I would agree to it. The imported softwoods are not all that they are claimed to be. It is argued that the price of building will be increased. The extra cost of a fiveroomed house will amount to not more than £6 12s. 6d. The additional rental, therefore, will be not greater than approximately 3d. a week. Senator Chapman claims to have been inundated with telegrams ostensibly from millers, and has used that as an argument to induce honorable senators who favour the higher duties to revise their views. I have not received a telegram from either a sawmiller or any other source. Senator Kingsmill has argued that if we do not allow the importation’ of softwood a substitute will be found. I point out that the substitute in the case of dado linings would be fibro plaster sheets, which are manufactured by Australian workmen under Australian conditions of labour; whereas -the imported softwoods are obtained in many cases from countries in which cheap colored labour is employed.

Senator Duncan:

– It would not help the timber industry to use fibro plaster sheets.

Senator GRAHAM:

– It would not do it any harm. I wish to quote from the report of the Forestry Department of Western Australia for the year ended 30th June,’ 1924. We. have been told * that borers are not brought to Australia in imported softwoods. That is incorrect. Three months ago an expert who travelled from the eastern States to Western Australia outlined to me the steps which have to be taken to cope with the borer, and said that not only the cargo but also the ships which bring it to Australia are affected. Fumigation of the vessels does not succeed in driving out the pest. Once it gets a hold every subsequent cargo of timber becomes infected before its arrival in Australia. The report to which I have referred reads as follows : -

The inspection of timber ‘ imported from Borneo and Java in conformance with the Commonwealth Quarantine Regulations has shown the necessity for close supervision. A number of living specimens of particularly destructive varieties of timber’ borers have been discovered, and arrangements have been made for the infected timber to be destroyed.

The Government should take every step possible to prevent the borer from obtaining a hold in Australia. Some honorable senators- claim that it has been here for years. If that is so, it is only now manifesting its presence, I have seen in Melbourne imported furniture that has been in use for ten years, yet the borer is only now working its way out through the tops of the tables. We must take a firm stand to prevent its ravages. In Western Australia the life of Oregon used in flooring joists and floorings is only three years, on account of the destruction that is caused by white ants. Even when the piles are sheathed with tin the ants cannot be kept out of the building. The effects of the borer are not immediately apparent. It is time we prevented the importation of foreign timber and encouraged our people to use our own woods. If the softwood forests of the rest of the world should be burnt out a substitute could easily be found in Australia’. When hardwood from Victoria or jarrah from Western Australia has been placed in position it lasts for all time. I saw on exhibition in Perth a piece of jarrah that had been taken from one of the piles of a jetty at Fremantle. It had been under water for 35 years. It was sawn through the centre, and polished until it looked like a piece of glass. There was. not a blemish on it. Sea water would cause a softwood to deteriorate within 24 hours. I shall support the proposed duties.

Senator ABBOTT:
New South Wales

– I wish to refer to the report of the Tariff Board which recommended a moderate increase in the timber duties. At page 27 the following appears: -

Such increases as have been recommended are intended only to save the industry by enabling a small profit to be earned, and prevent many more mills from closing down. Any further burden in tlie shape of increased wages or more improved conditions will mean that the trade which the increased duties are designed to bring to the hardwood saw-milling industry will be diverted to imported softwoods and substitutes.

– Senator Herbert Hays asked why I had supported increased duties in connexion with other industries, but was not willing to assist the timber industry.

Senator Findley in accusing me of opposing duties which he said would assist other industries, described me as an antiAustralian. It is true that I have supported increased duties on some items; but in considering whether or not a duty should be given to any particular industry, I have always looked at the effect it was likely to have on other industries. For instance, in regard to the iron and steel duties, honorable senators may recollect that I said that I recognized they were likely to affect the initial and, very often, the working costs of other industries, a matter which was well worthy of consideration,but that the iron and steel industry was necesary for defence, and whatever the price was, we had to pay it. Here, however, we have an imposition that willincrease the costs of all other industries, and for no effective purpose. Many concerns are to-day carrying on at a very low profit. If in the inaugural stage of an industry the cost of a factory is likely to be increased considerably, or if the cost of extensions to an existing factory are to be added to enormously by the high cost of timber, the result will be that the industry affected will have to make a further application to the Tariff Board and to this Parliament for another increase in its protective duties.

Senator Payne:

– The modern factory does not use a great deal of timber in its construction.

Senator DUNCAN:

– A great many

Australian factories use considerable quantities of timber, principally softwood, and even if they used hardwood timber these duties would increase the cost.- While I am prepared to give the fullest measure of protection to certain other industries, I am not willing to give more than a sufficient amount of protection to the timber industry. I am, therefore, supporting Senator Thompson’s request to confine the increased protection to this industry to 50 per cent, over the recommendation of the Tariff Board. If by supporting a duty which is 50 per cent, above the recommendation of the Tariff Board, I am not standing up to protectionist principles, I cannot imagine what Senator Findley and others want. I shall not support the extreme measure of protection proposed - by the Government because I have found that extreme measures of protection cease to afford protection. Instead of giving protection they give privilege, which I donot favour in any circumstances.

Question - that the request (‘Senator Thompson’s) be agreed to - put. The committee divided.

AYES: 8

NOES: 18

Majority . . . . 10

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Bequest negatived.

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

– Honorable senators who share my view regard the division just taken as a test on the timber duties, and are not prepared to offer further opposition to them, although at the same time they maintain that, the rates of duties should be reduced.

Item agreed to.

Item 293 agreed to.

Division XI. - Jewellery and Fancy Goods.

Items 308, 319 and 321 agreed to.

Division XIII. - Paper and Stationery.

Items 334 and 348 agreed to.

Division XIV. - Vehicles.

Items 352 and 354 agreed to.

Item 359 -

By omitting from sub-item (d) the wholeof paragraph (4) (twice occurring) and inserting in its stead the following paragraph: -

And on and after 10th December, 1927 -

Chassis, but not including rubber tyres, storage batteries, shock absorbers, or bumper bars - (a) Unassembled, ad valorem - British, free; intermediate, 12 J per cent.; general, 17i per cent; (6) Assembled, ad valorem - British, 5 per cent. ; intermediate, 20 per cent. ; general, 25 per cent.

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT

– I move -

That the House of Representatives be requested to make sub-item (d). (4) read as follows : -

Chassis, but not including rubber tyres, storage batteries, shock absorbers, bumper bars, or sparking plugs (a) Unassembled, ad valorem - British, free; intermediate, 12$ per cent.; general, 17 j per cent.; (6) Assembled, ad valorem - British, 5 per cent.; intermediate, 20 per cent.; general, 25 per cent.

The proposal is to amend the item by the addition of sparking plugs. These are now commercially made in Australia, and there is no reason why imported cars should not be equipped with the Australian product. It is well known that ‘a considerable number of cars are imported into this country with sparking plugs packed separately, although they form part of the original equipment of the chassis.

Senator LYNCH:
Western Australia

– This item is plainly an attempt to increase the British preferential tariff by 5 per cent, in the case of assembled chassis, and although it does not seem hopeful to ask for a vote on the item, I propose to do so, my idea being to wipe out the duty on both classes of chassis, assembled and unassembled, and make them all free. There is no protective character about duties of 12£ and 17 per cent. ; they are purely revenue duties. Hot even the most rabid protectionist would claim that 5 per cent, duty against Great Britain on assembled chassis would support any local industry. It is time we gave a certain amount of preference to the Australian users of motor cars. We should allow people to carry on their work here without being saddled with an impost of, say, 20 per cent, or 25 per cent, which it is proposed to impose on assembled chassis. When the last tariff was going through this chamber quite an array of reasons was advanced by me in support of the principle of giving the people of Australia who want this imported type of conveyance a chance to get it at bedrock prices.

Senator Ogden:

– I should place a heavy duty on motor cars.

Senator LYNCH:

– Then the honorable senator is anxious to saddle a higher rate of duty on the man who sells his old bullock dray and buys a motor car.

Senator Ogden:

– I should prohibit the importation of motor cars for five years.

Senator LYNCH:

– And go back to the wheelbarrow, perhaps. We cannot stop the march of progress. It is quite plain that these duties are not an attempt to found an- industry in Australia, and consequently their, only effect will be to saddle industries of Australia with an additional burden. Those who are engaged in the production of commodities which have to find a market overseas, are handicapped by their distance from markets, by the fact that they have to pay next to the highest customs tariff in the world, and because they have the highest standard of living in the world. I therefore intend to move that the House of Representatives be requested to remove the duties on chassis. I shall regard my request as a test for the purpose of giving the people of this country an opportunity to keep pace with the rate of progress of the rest of the world, without being penalized because they happen to use implements which are not made in Australia.

Senator Ogden:

– They are luxuries.

Senator LYNCH:

– Not at all. The person who uses a motor car in preference to a buggy or any other such vehicle has not luxurious tastes. Such vehicles are used in order to expedite business. These duties are imposed for revenue purposes and will affect those who, though not on the bread line, are engaged in arduous pursuits in which the use of motor vehicles is essential. The users of a Rolls Royce or a Vauxhall car can, if necessary, be taxed in other ways, but cars of that type are not at present under consideration. Some time ago the Canadian tariff was framed to tax men and women who were living luxuriously, but in Australia we have been too tired, too ignorant, or too indifferent to realize the benefits that would accrue from a luxuries tax. I wish to free those using this particular means of transport from a tax that is bearing heavily upon them. They are already sufficiently handicapped. I am anxious to remove this handicap, particularly as the Treasury is not short of money.

The Government is really at its wits end to know what to do with the revenue it is receiving. I am not anxious to provide it with a means of obtaining more so that it will have to tax its ingenuity in an endeavour to find a means of disposing of it. It is, of course, necessary to have improved roads, but in comparison with State Treasuries, the coffers of the Commonwealth are overflowing, largely as a result of the imposition of duties such as those which we are now considering. I am not opposed to preference to the Mother Country, but I believe that charity begins at home, and I have given ample evidence that those using motor vehicles should be given greater consideration.

The CHAIRMAN (“Senator Plain:
VICTORIA

– The request moved by the Minister is merely to insert the words “ or sparking plugs “ and does not affect the duties in any way. When that request has been disposed of Senator Lynch will be in order in moving his request.

Senator CRAWFORD:
Queensland(Honorary Minister · NAT

– The main object of the proposed increase in duty is to provide an additional £500,000, to be used in connexion with the Commonwealth Government’s policy of assisting roads development. No increase is proposed on importations of chassis from Great Britain. On importations from other countries the duties on unassembled chassis will he increased by 5 per cent, under the intermediate and general tariffs, and on assembled chassis by 1 per cent, under the intermediate and general tariffs.

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

– Although these duties have been in operation since November the prices of motor car3 have not increased.

Senator CRAWFORD:

– No. In many cases they have substantially decreased. When the roads are improved the life of motor vehicles will be considerably extended and greater comfort afforded to motorists. I trust that Senator Lynch will not press his request, because I am sure that honorable senators who are in favour of more money being spent on our roads, will support the Government’s proposal to raise revenue in this way, particularly as increased preference is being given to Great Britain.

Request agreed to.

Senator LYNCH:
Western Australia

– I move -

That the House of Representatives be requested to make the duty, sub-item (d) (4)

intermediate, free.

If the request is agreed to I intend to submit a similar motion in connexion with the general tariff.

Request negatived.

Item agreed to subject to a request.

Division XV. - Musical Instruments.

Item 365 (Pianos and parts thereof).

Senator CHAPMAN:
South Australia

– Under this item I notice that some of the fiat rates to which I have previously referred are to be increased. I mention more particularly the ordinary piano, which is used very extensively in the country and also by a large number of working and lower salaried people in the cities. The old rates for upright pianos were £7 British, £8 intermediate, and £9 10s. general, or ad valorem 30 per cent. British, 40 per cent, intermediate, and 45s. general tariff, whichever rate returns the higher duty. The rate how proposed is £7 British, £21 10s. intermediate, £25 general, with the previous ad valorem rates. As honorable senators will see, the flate rates have been considerably increased on the type of piano with which the poorer people have to be satisfied. . It has been said that flat rates are imposed to keep out cheap foreign goods; but the Tariff Board which held an exhaustive inquiry into the importations of pianos, particularly from Germany, stated, that -

Subsequent events have proved that the United States is chiefly responsible for the increased importations. So much is this the case that the main burden of the evidence tendered by the parties to the latest request for increased duties was directed to the competition now being experienced from importations from the United States of America, more particularly in what were described as cheap standardized instruments.

I refute the statement that the instruments in question are cheap and unfit for ordinary use. The Tariff Board says they are not. This is its finding -

Considerable evidence on the quality of the cheaper imported instrument was tendered by both sides. The witnesses appearing in support of the request for increased duties described these cheaper imported instruments variously by such terms as “ rubbish,” “ inferior rubbish,” “ a menace to the purchasers.” and “ inferior low grade instruments.” This general condemnation was, however, not supported by the presentation of any exhibits that would justify such a general condemnation. The only instrument which it could be said would in any way lend support to any of the general charges was exhibited some time after the inquiry had closed.

I think that it will be seen that these duties are not being imposed to protect purchasers from inferior pianos. They will be paid on serviceable instruments which the general community wish to use. The trade with America has increased tremendously, and the exports from that country to Australia supply food for thought. In 1921-22 our imports from the United States of America, were valued at £18,000,000, and they increased in 1925-26 to £37,000,000. The export from Australia to the United States of America, which in 1921-22 were valued at £8,000,000, increased in 1925-26 to only £12,000,000 I admit these figures are alarming, but the importations of cheap pianos are not responsible for the large increase in our imports from the United States. Between the years’ 1923 and 1926, the value of imports of player-pianos increased from £1,395,485 to £2,680,338, while imports of ordinary pianos declined in value from £1,036,419 to £338,477.

Senator McLachlan:

– Would not the decline in the importation of ordinary pianos be due to the demand for playerpianos ?

Senator CHAPMAN:

– No doubt the honorable senator is right to a certain extent. As I have shown, the importations of player-pianos from America have doubled in three years. The figures relating to the imports of upright pianos for the three years ending 30th June, 1927, are as follows :- 1924-25, 10,225; 1925- 26, 6,254; 1926-27, 4,239. The poorer classes in the community are, in the main, the purchasers of these pianos, and the figures show that since imports of this class of instrument are declining, the Australian industry is not in any danger. There is only a limited number of manufacturers of pianos and player-pianos in Australia. If these duties are ratified, the people will have a more limited range of selection and of course they will have to pay a higher price for their instruments. Having had an opportunity to examine certain invoices, I find that a piano invoiced at £35 in Germany was, under the old rates, dutiable at £17 6s. lid., but under this item the duty is £25.

Senator Duncan:

– Will the new duties mean that fewer pianos will be bought by the people?

Senator CHAPMAN:

– I think the effect will be to increase the price of the cheaper instruments to the people. One has only to go into our outback areas to realize what a difference a piano makes to the happiness of a home. Why, therefore, should we do anything to increase the price of this class of instrument to people who cannot afford to purchase player-pianos? Some time ago I asked a series of questions in the Senate with regard to the duty on pianos and was informed that for the year eliding 30th June, 1925-26, the total amount of duty paid on pianos was £149,128, and on player-pianos £278,429, or a total of £427,557. The total of wages paid in the manufacturing industry in Australia during that year was only £335,502 in respect of the whole of the items included under the heading “ Musical Instruments “ - nearly £100,000 less than the revenue derived from importations. I protest strongly against the imposition . of the duties on these upright pianos, which will have the effect of increasing the cost to the people of this country.

Senator CRAWFORD:
QueenslandHonorary Minister · NAT

– Honorable senators will observe that no increase is proposed in the duties on pianos imported from Great Britain. As Senator Chapman has pointed out, there has been a # considerable decrease in the number of ordinary pianos imported, and a corresponding increase in the importation of player-pianos. The old rates of duty - were applicable only when instruments were invoiced at less than £19 each. Australian manufacturers are suffering severe competition from the manufacturers of the cheaper American playerpianos. These imported instruments are being invoiced as low as £36 each, and during the last few years there must have been instances where they have been invoiced at even a much lower price, as duty has been paid on certain upright player-pianos at specific ra’tes of duty of £9 10s. each. The invoice value of these goods therefore could not have exceeded £1S or £19. Pianos invoiced at £36 are landed, duty paid, at from £66 to £68 and are being sold in retail shops at from £120 to £126 each. These profits are exorbitant. The cheapest player-piano made in Australia is somewhere in the region of £85. This instrument has to compete against the cheap American pianos. Certain departmental stores stock only those goods upon which they can make the greatest profit. In this way the sale of Australian-made goods is being seriously affected. In many cases the Australian instrument is not stocked because the retailer can make larger profits on the sale of imported pianos. I hope that the committee will pass the item in the interests of not only the Australian manufacturer, but also the British” manufacturer and “the dear old mother country “ to which Senator Chapman referred so feelingly in the general debate on the tariff.

Senator NEEDHAM:
“Western Australia

– I hope that the duties will not be disturbed. Senator Chapman quoted certain figures with the object of inducing honorable senators to vote against the item.

Senator Chapman:

– I directed my remarks to only one class of piano.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– These duties have been imposed for the purpose of protecting the Australian industry. I also intend to quote figures which throw a somewhat different light on the position.

Senator Chapman:

– I quoted, from the Tariff Board’s reports.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I also get my information from the same source. The figures show that in 1922-23 the number of upright player-pianos imported from Great Britain was 148; in 1925-26, it was 214; and in 1926-27, it was 291. From Germany we imported 58 of these instruments in 1922-23, and no less than 1,993 during 1926-27. “What has become of the cry which we heard ‘a few years ago, that never again should we trade with Germany? Our imports from that country show a substantial increase. America is, of course, our greatest competitor. In 1922-23 we imported from the linked States of America 2,746 player-pianos, and last year, 11,329.

Our total imports of player-pianos from all countries for the three years were: - 1922-23, 2,970; 1925-26, 8,755; 1926-27, 13,679. The bulk of the player-pianos imported from America are inferior in quality, and are sold to the public at prices far above their real value. The Tariff Board states -

The local factories are numerous and efficient….. The Tariff Board is satisfied that the locally-made instrument cannot be sold with a reasonable profit in competition with the imported instrument.

Already there are many factories engaged in the manufacture of pianos and player-pianos in Australia, and they are turning out splendid instruments. The bulk of the material used is obtained in Australia. The Beale factory uses all Australian metal for its frames. It obtains iron from Hoskins Brothers and the Broken Hill Proprietary Company’s Steel “Works at Newcastle; the copper wire comes from Metal Manufacturers Limited, Port Kembla; bronze pressure bars from the Austral Bronze Company, Alexandria; glue from the Davis Gelatine Company, Botany; lacquer from the “Woolwich Chemical Company, Sydney; and timber from various Australian timber merchants. “We are encouraging not only the manufacture of pianos, but also the production of practically all the raw material that is used in their construction. The efficiency of Beale’s factory cannot be questioned. The capital investments of that company total £650,000, and the wages distribution amounts annually to £160,000. The last report of the Tariff Board discloses the fact that the doubt which at one time existed as to whether player-pianos could be manufactured commercially in Australia, has been dissipated. It says -

The ordinary piano has gradually been displaced by the introduction of the player-piano. An examination of the figures showing’ importation into the Commonwealth of even’ the last three years reveals the sudden change that is taking place in this industry, and is compelling in a great measure a change-over to another type of instrument than that hitherto universally made. Local manufacturers’ of pianos have been responding to the change, and have entered into the manufacture of the new type of instrument in a commercial way.

Some persons at one time believed that the player-piano was not being made in Australia. It is probably the most popular instrument in the homes of our people.

Our factories would not be able to compete with overseas manufacturers, particularly with those of the United States of America, without adequate protection. The proposal we are now considering is that they shall be given that meed of protection, so that they will be able to compete with not only Germany, but also America, which offers the most formidable opposition. Because of the love of our people for music, we should encourage the industry in every way, particularly when it has been proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that exorbitant prices are not being charged, and that a good instrument is being made.

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

– My interest in this debate is practically confined to the deplorably decadent influence of the player-piano upon the art of piano playing. Concurrently with the ever-increasing importations of player-pianos there is a rapid decrease in the number of pianos, and a thinning of the ranks- of pianists. Had the Minister for Trade and Customs been imbued with the true musical instinct he would have brought down an almost prohibitive tariff on player-pianos and pianos, and one that would have placed within the reach of every person the ordinary piano. In my young days every cottage had its piano, with the result that Australia produced many very fine artists. The number of boys and girls of the present generation who can play the piano artistically is considerably fewer than was the case at the period to which I refer. If in the future we have at the head of the department a Minister who is thoroughly imbued with the musical instinct relief in. the direction I have indicated may be given.

– Of course I did; and I am proud of it, for the simple reason that the manufacture of local whiskey had not previously been given adequate protection. Whiskey can now be manufactured in Australia at a low price for the benefit of Senator Ogden. That is an illustration of my consistency. I am in favour of protection . up to a point, but no further. The result of having moved in a circle is this shocking anachronism in the shape of a tariff that has increased from 20 per cent., 25 per cent., and 30 per cent, to 45 per cent., 55 per cent., and 60 per cent. It has neither rhyme nor reason to sustain it. Admittedly, there is a break in the clouds. Honorable senators who come from any one State do not now always vote alike, for the simple reason that they realize that this kind of ‘ thing cannot continue. I rose particularly to point out the foolishness of the Minister’s argument that we need protection in this case because the price of the foreign-made article is so high. The Leader of the Opposition (Senator Needham) gave us the usual rigmarole about imports. It would seem almost that our criminal law should be remodelled’ so as to make it an offence for any person to be seen near an importer’s place of business. By some persons imports are regarded in almost the same light as are stolen goods. Senator Needham seems to forget that the wool and wheat which we export are imports in the countries which purchase them. What would happen if other countries refused to accept our goods because to them they were imports? If they were to pay us back in our own coin honorable senators who now complain about the volume of our imports would realize the unsoundness of their argument. In this instance I support

Senator Chapman’s objection, but I warn him against viewing tariff matters solely from a geographical stand-point. It is contended that by imposing increased duties on pianos under the general tariff we are assisting the dear old Mother Country. But is that so? We import from Britain, as it were, only a van load of pianos each year, so that any increased duties on pianos will not benefit the Old Country a great deal. However, I propose to vote for the item.

Item agreed to. ‘

Division XVI. - Miscellaneous.

Items 373, 376, 380, 381, 417, 418, 427, 430 and 431 agreed to.

Division V. - Textiles, Pelts and Tubs, and Manufactures Thereof, and Attire.

Postponed item 112. (Apparel or attire, including furs) - Upon which Senator Payne had moved -

That the House of Representatives bo requested to add at the end of the item: - “ By omitting the whole of the subitem b, and inserting in its stead the following sub-item: -

Fur and other skins n.e.i. (except rabbit skins) dressed or prepared for making up, ad valorem, British, 15 per cent.; intermediate, 15 per cent.; general, 20 per cent.

Rabbit skins dressed or prepared for making up, ad valorem, British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 45 per cent.”

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

.- I propose now to move -

That the House of Representatives be requested to add after sub-item (a) the following: - “By omitting the whole of sub-item (b), and inserting in its stead the following subitem : -

Fur and other skins, n.e.i. (except rabbit skins) dressed or prepared for making up, ad valorem, British, 15 per cent.; intermediate, 15 per cent.; general, 20 per cent.

Rabbit skins dressed or prepared for making up, ad valorem, British, 25 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent.”

The existing tariff does not’ -protect any industry established to prepare rabbit skins, for manufacture into articles of apparel or attire. During the past two years the fur industry has been established in Tasmania and New South Wales. At first the companies experienced difficulties in obtaining the proper dyes, but last year permission was given by the Commonwealth Government for their importation, with the result that within a few months coney sealskin furs to the value of £22,000 were manufactured and sold. I have here some samples of furs treated in Hobart. The demand for furs is so great that the granting of a moderate measure of protection will provide employment for a large number of people in a very short time. Hitherto large quantities of furs and other skins have been imported from France and Germany.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 8. p.m.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– On a point of order I want to know where we stand. Senator ‘ Payne is asking for a duty on the raw material required for making the apparel or attire referred to in sub-item a. It would be manifestly unfair if we agreed to duties of 40 per cent., 50 per cent, and 55 per cent, on apparel or attire including furs or other skins sewn together, and then subsequently agreed to a request for duties which would manifestly have the effect of increasing the price of the raw material of that attire. If that were done it would be necessary to impose higher duties than 40 per cent., 50 per cent, and 55 per cent, on apparel including furs. If we agree to Senator Payne’s request we shall not be able to go back to sub-item a and alter the. duties it imposes on apparel. I am prepared to vote for the item as it stands, but the adoption of this request might make a considerable difference to the effect of subitem a.

Senator Sir George Pearce:

– The honorable senator knows that there is a request to insert a new sub-item b.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– But we do not know that it will be carried. If it should be carried I shall want to have higher duties under sub-item a.

Senator Payne:

– If my request is agreed to all that the honorable senator will have to do is to move -for the recommital of item 112 for the purpose of re-considering sub-item a. ,

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Plain:
VICTORIA

I suggest that Senator Payne should be allowed to proceed with his request, and - that if it is found that it is likely to interfere with sub-item a, the honorable senator can be asked to withdraw his request to permit the committee to deal first of all with sub-item a.

Senator McLachlan:

– Confusion has arisen because the schedule contains only the alterations to the tariff, while the memorandum circulated contains only the items proposed to be amended. Item 112, sub-item a, of the tariff reads as follows : -

Apparel or attire or other article in part or wholly made up, including furs or other skins sewn together, ad valorem, British 40 per cent., intermediate 50 per cent., general 55 per cent.

Then follows sub-item b which Senator Payne is desirous of having amended. It reads as follows : -

Fur and other skins, n.e.i. dressed or prepared for making up, ad valorem, British 15 per cent., intermediate 15 per cent., general 20 per cent.

No confusion can arise nor can the position of the committee be prejudiced if furs and other skins are now considered. Sub-item a merely amends the wording of the tariff, and proposes no alteration of rates.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The rates in the schedule are those by which the Government stands?

Senator McLachlan:

– Yes. They are the rates in the present tariff.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– But everything depends on what is done to sub-item b.

Senator McLachlan:

– The Government has not sought to amend sub-item b. It is for the committee to accept or reject Senator Payne’s request.

Senator Elliott:

– A way out of the difficulty would be to alter the order of the sub-items and make sub-item b subitem a, thus . allowing Senator Thomas subsequently to move, if necessary, a request on the sub-item which is now described as sub-item a.

The CHAIRMAN:

– That cannot be done.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The best way out of the difficulty is for the Government to stand by its- proposals.

SenatorDuncan. - In view of the complications that have arisen would I be in order in moving “ That in the opinion of this committee, item 112 should be re-submitted to the Tariff Board for further report.”

British, 35 per cent, intermediate, and 40 per cent, general-

The CHAIRMAN (Senator Plain).I direct the honorable senator’s attention to the fact that when the item was before the committee last week he moved for the imposition of duties of 30 per cent. British, 35 per cent, intermediate, and 45 per cent, general tariff. Is it the wish of the.honorable senator to amend his request so that the rates shall read - 25 per cent. British, 35 per cent, intermediate, and 40 per cent, general?

Senator PAYNE:

– Yes. I desire to submit my request in the amended form set out by me at the outset of the debate on the item this evening.

– Why should not Australian women wear Australian hose?

The honorable senator did not advocate the use of Australian goods the other day.

Senator PAYNE:

– I have always advocated the use of Australian-made goods, but have opposed exc’essive duties against British manufacturers. Stockings are worn by all women, but the same cannot be said of fur coats. I trust this request will have the support of the committee.

Senator Ogden:

– I am “ somewhat diffident in rising to a point of order, but it seems to me that the request is unconstitutional.

The CHAIRMAN (Senator PlainsSenator Payne is in order in moving that the House of Representatives be requested to amend the item.

Senator Ogden:

– I shall be glad, Mr. Chairman, if you will allow me to state my point of order. I direct your attention to section 53 of the Constitution, which states, inter alia -

The Senate may not amend any proposed law so as to increase any proposed charge or burden on the people.

– At least 90 per cent, of the rabbit skins that are exported from Australia do not return as skins. Some of them are returned in the shape of manufacture of furs. Most of them do not return in any form: They are not used to any extent in garment manufacture because they are not sufficiently large.

Senator Payne:

SenatorREID. - The honorable senator has struck the flag of which he was so proud the other day.

Senator Elliott:

– Does the honorable senator agree that this industry should be protected ?

SenatorREID. - I am a believer in Australian industries’; but Senator Payne has moved his request because the making of furs is a Tasmanian industry. When we were discussing the duties on hosiery Senator Payne appeared greatly concerned about their effect on the poor working man who,he said, would be victimized.

Senator Payne:

– In the case of hosiery, a duty of 150 per cent, against British goods was proposed.

SenatorREID. - The honorable senator is interested only in Tasmanian industries. Senator Duncan made it clear that these duties would affect the price of articles manufactured from fur; they will come in cheaper than the skins.

Senator Payne:

Senator MILLEN:

Board is a useful institution, and, in accordance with its report, we have, at the instance of the furriers of Australia, substantially increased the duties on fur trimmings under item 112. It is wrong, however, to suggest that the Tariff Board is superior to Parliament, and trial when a proposition commends itself to a majority of members, Parliament should not. declare its inability to reach a proper decision.

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

.- I wish to remove a wrong impression from the minds of Senator Duncan and Senator Thomas, who have inferred that I introduced this matter solely in the interests of a Tasmanian industry. Only to-day I received a letter from a firm established in New South Wales, engaged, not only in the manufacture of coney from rabbit skins, but in the manufacture of fur garments. That is the kind of firm which Senator Duncan has in mind. The communication is from Furs Limited, Sydney, whose showrooms are in Pomeroy House, York-street. This is what the manager writes -

We note the contents of the letter received from you to-day, in which you state that you have indicated your intention to move for an item providing for duties of 25 per cent., 35 per cent., and 40 per cent, respectively, on rabbit skins finished for articles of attire. In our opinion these will be likely to meet the requirements of the case, and, as far as we are concerned, we think will be sufficient to put us on a competitive basis. We are in an entirely different position to Tasmanian Fur Traders Limited, and other manufacturers, inasmuch as we make up in our factories all the coney seals we are producing.

– At the expense of the taxpayer.

Senator ANDREW:

– If our economic conditions are to be maintained at their present level, the taxpayer must pay the cost. Another aspect of the matter is that if this becomes a big industry the rabbit may be protected in certain areas in Australia suitable for the purpose where it will not be a menace to landowners, and instead of being a pest it will be a valuable asset. If anything is done on these lines it must be carried out under proper supervision. We send overseas for high-class stud sheep and cattle to improve our flocks and herds. If this industry proves of value to Australia a. similar method can be employed to improve the quality of the rabbit.

Senator Abbott:

– If the honorable senator sets out to improve the breed of the rabbit in Northern New South Wales he will be killed by the settlers.

Senator ANDREW:

Senator VERRAN:

– Only in proportion to the rest of Australia. For that reason I do not intend to vote for the honorable senator’s request. During the past week I have been shocked by the number and variety of the wares that have been brought into this chamber. Such a thing would not be allowed in any other Parliament in . the Commonwealth. The plea that protection is necessary for the working man is bunkum. The salvation of the workers of the Commonwealth does not lie in the direction of a protective tariff. The problems that confront Australia are infinitely greater than those which face this fur industry. One can always tell when an industry is in a serious position by the number of occasions upon which its representatives are present at the sittings of this chamber. Like those who go to prayer meetings, they are regular attendants. I do not blame them for looking after their interests. They are. justified, so long as we allow that practice to continue. But we must speak and act independently of any outside influence. No man is greater than his environment. Senator Payne’s environment to-night will not prove of any assistance to him.

Question - That the request (Senator Payne’s) be agreed to- put. The Committee divided -

Ayes . . . . 17

Noes .. ..9

Majority . . . . 8

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bequest agreed to.

Item agreed to subject to a request.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with requests.

page 3975

FINANCIAL AGREEMENT BILL

Bill received from the House of Representatives and (on motion by Senator Sir George Pearce) read a first time.

page 3975

ADJOURNMENT

Beam Wireless; - Postmaster-General’s Department : Annual Report

Motion (by Senator Sir George Pearce) proposed -

That the Senate do now adjourn.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

.- This afternoon I asked the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral, “ What is the loss or profit on the working of the Beam section of the Amalgamated Wireless Company?” and I was informed that the information is not available in the PostmasterGeneral’s Department. Half the shares in that company are held by the Government on behalf of - the people of Australia, and I desire to know whether honorable senators are entitled to get information about the company; if so, to what Minister should my question he addressed. I did not expect that the information would be in the files of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department; hut I assumed that it would be obtained, and, if we are entitled to it, I hope that the Minister representing the Postmaster-General will get it for me.

According to a statement published in the press tenders have been received in London for the purchase of the Commonwealth Government Line of Steamers. The Prime Minister has stated that the details of the tenders are being sent to Australia by mail, because it would cost a small fortune to transmit the information by wireless or cablegram. I understand that Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited has not sufficient overseas traffic to keep it operating half-time; if that is so, would it not be an act of statesmanship to utilize this modern service in order to get the information promptly? Must governments still adhere to oldfushioned methods of communication?

The annual report of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department was tabled in the House on the 9th March ; so far I have not received a copy, and I assume that other honorable senators have not been supplied. . ‘

Senator Sir George Pearce:

– All documents must be submitted to the Printing Committee.

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– It is time that the Printing Committee got busy, for people who are not senators have copies of the report, and I perused one in Sydney.

Senator McLACHLAN:
Honorary Minister · South Australia · NAT

– I understand that the report of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department has been printed, and I shall inquire the reason for the delay in the distribution of copies to honorable senators. . In regard to the Amalgamated Wireless Company, the honorable senator has raised an important question of policy, namely, whether the business details of every commercial concern in which the Commonwealth is financially interested are to he disclosed, not only to honorable senators, hut through the medium of Hansard and the press to its trade competitors. Amalgamated Wireless. (Australasia) Limited is in competition with two cable companies. The Government is also a shareholder in the Common wealth Oil Refineries, and I, personally, would take strong exception to the publication of details of its business which might be of advantage to its trade rivals.

Senator Duncan:

– Does not the Government compel those trade rivals to publish annual reportsand balancesheets ?

Senator McLACHLAN:

– Yes ;but only in the -same way as Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited and the Commonwealth Oil Refineries are bound to publish their reports and balance- sheets. These are public companies, and the reports and balance-sheets will he made available in due course. But to disclose business details at any period of the year in regard to concerns in which the taxpayers’ money is invested would be extremely unwise. The information is not at the disposal of the PostmasterGeneral. The Government must rely on its representatives on the board of directors of Amalgamated Wireles (Australasia) Limited to safeguard the interests of the taxpayers of Australia.

Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

[10.35]. - Reports which are laid on the table of the Senate become the property of the chamber and it is for the Printing Committee . to decide what is to be done with them. That committee is expected to . go through all reports laid on the table and decide which shall be printed, because obviously, it is not necessary to print them all. If a document is laid on the table and not printed the fault lies, not with the Government, hut with the Printing Committee of the Senate. It is rather interesting to learn that Senator Andrew, who has just interjected that the Printing Committee meets about once in every five years, is a member of that committee. If it does not meet the fault is Mb. The Senate doesnot tell the committee when it ought to meet; the members of the committee themselves decide when they shall meet. I have learnt, however, that the report of the Postmaster-General was laid on the table of the House of Representatives to-day and ordered to be . printed. It is now at the Printing Office,and will be circulated in a few days.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned at 10.37 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 21 March 1928, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1928/19280321_senate_10_118/>.

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Senate21 March 1928

PAPER

Public Service Act - Appointments - Department of Trade and Customs. - J. C. Just, H. J. Clare, F. K. Baxter, A. E. Whyte, and E. H. Dial

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH AND COMMONWEALTH BANK EMPLOYEES

FEDERAL CAPITAL:

Transport Service

QUESTION

CIVIL AVIATION

Senator GUTHRIE:Senator Elliott · through

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

QUESTION

POSTAL MOTOR CARS

Senator McLACHLAN:Honorary Minister · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

QUESTION

PENNY WIRELESS MESSAGES

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator McLACHLAN:NAT

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND’S COTTON CROP

Senator FINDLEY:VICTORIA

Senator CRAWFORD:Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

QUESTION

CUSTOMS TARIFF

Senator CHAPMAN:South Australia

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator Hoare:

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator NeedhaM:

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator THOMAS:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator Crawford:

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator Findley:

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator Findley:

Senator CHAPMAN:

Senator KINGSMILL:Western Australia

Senator Hoare:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator Hoare:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator Hoare:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator Ogden:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator Ogden:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator Ogden:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator Ogden:

Senator KINGSMILL:

Senator THOMPSON:Queensland

Senator Crawford:

Senator THOMPSON:

Senator Crawford:

Senator THOMPSON:

Senator Crawford:

Senator THOMPSON:

Senator Crawford:

Senator THOMPSON:

Senator J B Hayes:

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator DUNCAN:NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator Carroll:

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator Thompson:

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator Thompson:

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator Crawford:

Senator FINDLEY:

Senator LYNCH:Western Australia

Senator Findley:

Senator LYNCH:

Senator Thompson:

Senator Crawford:

Senator LYNCH:

Senate
21 March 1928

Senator GUTHRIE:
Senator Elliott · through

Senator McLACHLAN:
Honorary Minister · SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator McLACHLAN:
NAT

Senator FINDLEY:
VICTORIA

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

Senator CHAPMAN:
South Australia

Senator THOMAS:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

Senator DUNCAN:
NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator LYNCH:
Western Australia

Senator J B HAYES:
Tasmania

Senator DUNCAN:
New South Wales

Senator HERBERT HAYS:
TASMANIA · NAT; UAP from 1931; LP from 1944

Senator GRAHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator ABBOTT:
New South Wales

Senator HERBERT HAYS:
Tasmania

Senator DUNCAN:
New South Wales’