Senate
24 March 1927

10th Parliament · 1st Session



The Deputy President (Senator Plain) took the chair at 31 a.m., and; read prayers.

page 1009

QUESTION

MINISTERIAL CHANGES

Senator PEARCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

(By leave.)- Honorable senators are aware that for some time Sir Neville Howse, the Minister for Defence, has been carrying a. very heavy load in the administration of the Defence, Repatriation, and Health Departments. They are aware also that during his recent visit to England he had the misfortune to become seriously ill, and had to undergo an operation, which was followed by further illness whilst en route to Australia. He has approached the Prime Minister and asked to be- relieved of the portfolio of Defence.In the circumstances, the Prime Minister has regretfully felt that he must accede to the request. Sir Neville Howse has-, at the request of the Prime Minister; agreed to continue to administer the departments of Repatriation and Health. In view of his special qualifications for those two important portfolios, his continuance in that office will be a source of satisfaction to the Government, and also, I am sure, to Parliament.

Honorable Senators. - Hear, hear! .

Senator PEARCE:

- Senator Sir William Glasgow has relinquished the portfolio of Minister for Home and Territories, and has been appointed Minister for Defence. Major Marr, who has been acting as Assistant Minister for Defence, has been appointed Minister for Home and Territories. I am sorry also to have to announce that Mr. Pratten, the Minister for Trade and Customs, acting on medical advice, has asked the Prime Minister for four months’ leave of absence, which has been granted. During his absence, the Department of Trade and Customs will be administered by Senator Crawford.

page 1009

PRIVILEGE

Removal to Canberra Interference with Members’ Papers.

Senator GIVENS:
QUEENSLAND

– I desire to raise a question of privilege. I understand that all honorable senators, as well as members of another place, received yesterday a circular letter from the then Honorary Minister, Mr. C. W. C. Marr, as Secretary to the Government, in the following terms : -

Commonwealth of Australia.

Department of Defence,

Melbourne, 23rd March, 1027.

Dear Sir,

Owing tothe removal of Parliament to Canberra, members of the House of Representatives and senators are requested to go through their books, -papers, letters, &c., in their private boxes in the various party rooms and to discard anything they do not require taken to Canberra.

Papers left in the members’ boxes after Thursday next, 24th inst., will be packed and removed to Canberra, and placed in the private boxes there;but members will realize that, owing to the cost of removal, it is essential that only the papers, &c., actually required should be removed to Canberra. It will be appreciated, therefore, if each member will immediately go through hisbox, and place on one sideuseless matter,which can be disposed of by the attendants; lt is also desired to remind members that they may draw stamps due to them up to the 30th June next - the end of the financial year - and that any not drawn before that date will revert to the Treasury.

Yours faithfully,

W. O. Marr,

Secretary to the Government.

What I wish to emphasize is that Parliament traditionally is and always has been master in its own house, and that no government or minister, not even the Prime Minister himself, has a right to assume any control over it. Parliament exercises control of its own affairs through its duly elected presiding officers and committees. 1 strongly resent an honorary minister, acting as Secretary to the Cabinet, presenting an ultimatum to us, and. say ing that, unless we do something by u certain date, he is coming in to pack up our papers and transfer them to Canberra willy nilly, whether we desire it or not.

Senator Abbott:

– All members are doing it.

Senator GIVENS:

– All that the Government is entitled to do in connexion with the transfer to Canberra is to intimate that we can no longer occupy these premises after a certain date. I object to interference of this kind by any minister or ministry; I object to being told by them what I must or must not do in this House. This matter is not new. There have been various attempts from time to time, on the part of a Ministry or some members of it, or some outside department to take control of Parliament in matters affecting the privileges of members. For thirteen years I was in the chair which you, Mr. Deputy President, now occupy. During thai period more than one attempt was made by Ministers and Governments to interfere with matters that properly were under the control of the presiding officers; but, as President of the Senate, I always resisted, and did not permit, interference. I hold that Parliament must be muster in its own house, and that a Minister has no more right, to interfere than has a man in the street. Let me recall what is, in my estimation, largely the cause of this attempt to interfere with the privileges of honorable senators, so that in future they may protect themselves. The older members of the Senate will remember that for many years after the establishment of federation we had no Prime Minister’s Department. When that department was created there was practically nothing for its secretary to do, so he looked round to find something to occupy his attention and magnify the importance of his position. That gentleman was Mr. M. L. Shepherd, who is now secretary to the High Commissioner in London. The first thin? he attempted was to take control of Parliament. I was President at the time, and I can assure honorable senators that Mr. Shepherd’s efforts did not meet with any success. The same thing is happening now. This Honorary Minister has been looking roundto see in what way he can magnify bis own importance, and find something to do when otherwise ho would be idle. I resent his attempt to take control of Parliament. No ono is entitled to do that except, as I have already stated, its duly appointed presiding officers and the chairmen of the house committees. Mr. Marr will not be permitted to take possession of my papers without my authority.

There is another, matter to which I desire to direct attention. I refer to the arrangements for the opening of Parliament at Canberra. 1 have not the slightest doubt that if the Senate had been consulted, an amicable arrangement could have been made. So far as I know, the Government has made no request to the Senate. It proposes to take control of the Senate Chamber in the new Parliament House at Canberra without reference to the Senate at all, and apparently the Senate will have no more to do with proceedings which will take place in the Senate Chamber on that occasion than if it did not exist. The whole of the arrangements have been carried out by the Government. On every other occasion the presiding officer of the Senate, ‘acting in conjunction with the Joint House Committee, has been responsible for the arrangements at the opening of Parliament in so far as this chamber is concerned, its sole control being limited only by the necessity to make arrangements for the accommodation of members of another place. I am afraid that if we do not take a proper stand now we shall find ourselves the creatures of the Government instead of the Government being the creature of Parliament.

Senator Ogden:

– We are that now, apparently, whether we know it or not.

Senator GIVENS:

– Therehave been times when the Government of the day - not this Government - has tried to take control of a certain room without reference to the joint committees. As presiding officer of the Senate at that time, I instructed our officers to throw everything out of a room unless permission to use it was sought and obtained in the proper way. I hold, and I think the Senate will endorse my view, that Parliament must be supreme in its own house. It is for that reason that I have this morning directed the attention of the Senate to the latest incident. If any member of the Government attempts to look at or interfere with my private papers, or attempts to handle them in any way, I will deal with him.

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– I rise to the question of privilege. In view of what appears to be an attack upon the Government under cover of privilege, it is only right that I should say a few words on this subject. There appear to be two matters involved in the statement made by Senator Givens; one is that a letter was issued by the then Honorary Minister, Major Marr, and the other has reference to the preparations for the opening ceremony at Canberra. They have 110 relation to each other, and I think that both are capable of easy explanation. With regard to the first complaint made by Senator Givens, it is probable that the Honorary Minister in question erred in a strictly technical sense; but there is no occasion for any honorable senator to get excited at what has been done, or attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. I assure the Senate that there is no intention on the part of the Government to interfere with the rights of honorable senators or trample on their privileges. We should look at this matter from a common-sense point of view. When the removal of the various departments to Canberra was contemplated, Parliament, together with its various staffs, was regarded as a department of the Public Service.

Senator Kingsmill:

– Since when?

Senator PEARCE:

– I ask honorable senators not to become excited. Let them wait until I have finished what I want to say, and if they desire to find fault with it they may then do so. In the strictly Public Service sense, under the provisions of the Public Service Act, each parliamentary staff is regarded as a public department.

Senator Givens:

– It is under the control of the presiding officers, and not under the Public Service Board.

Senator PEARCE:

– I did not interrupt the honorable senator whilst he was speaking, and I ask him to allow me to proceed. If the Public Service Act is consulted it will be found that Parliament itself has declared that, for the purposes of the Public Service, each parliamentary staff is a department, and the clerk in each House is the head of a department. That has been claimed by Mr. President and Mr. Speaker in connexion with the invitations that are being issued for theceremonies that are to take place at the opening of the Parliament House at Canberra. They drew the attention of the Government to the fact that the clerk of the House of Representatives and the Clerk of the Senate are heads of departments, and, therefore, must be treated similarly to the heads of other departments. That, however, is by the way. As the executive of the nation the Government has had to take upon its shoulders the responsibility of effecting the removal to Canberra, including the transportation of the documents of the various departments.. But, recognizing that Parliament occupied a position different from that of other departments, in that it is master in its own house, the Government asked if in its case it should make the arrangements in connexion with the removal, or whether it was preferred that those arrangements should be made by members themselves. As the result of conferences with Colonel Farr, who was appointed to see to the removal of the impedimenta of the various departments, it was decided that he should arrange also for the removal of the furniture and impedimenta associated with Parliament. That is a perfectly commonsense arrangement. Why should there be two authorities engaged in the packing of the furniture and in making arrangements with the railway authorities, when one can do the work much better and more cheaply? Mr. President and Mr. Sneaker have concurred in that arrangement. I admit that there has been a slight breach of etiquette. Strictly speaking, no Minister should have written the letterwhich has been read by Senator Givens. If the necessity existed for such a communication it clearly ought to have been made through Mr. President and Mr. Speaker. But let rae mention the circumstances surrounding the writing of the letter. One of the senior officers of Parliament approached Major Marr, and told him that considerable difficulty was being experienced in getting members to put their papers together for transport to Canberra. He suggested tnat a letter should be sent to members asking them to expedite that work.

Senator Sampson:

– As a soldier Major Marr ought to have known the proper channel through which to work.

Senator Givens:

– He did not require a great deal of urging to interfere.

Senator PEARCE:

– The letter was written by Major Marr with a view to expediting the removal. I admit quite frankly that he ought not to have written it. His proper course was to write to Mr. President and Mr. Speaker, asking them to address such a communication. This is not a plot concocted round the Cabinet table to attack the privileges of Parliament. I was not aware that tho letter had been sent. Major Marr has informed me that he had no idea of invading the privileges of Parliament or of interfering with the prerogatives of its members. His sole wish was to try to facilitate the removal of Parliament to Canberra. It must be remembered that Major Marr, in addition to being secretary to the Cabinet, is also Government Whip in another place, and in that capacity he acts as a go-between the Ministry and members in matters of this kind. I can assure honorable senators that the Government has neither the intention nor the desire to in any way invade the privileges of Parliament. It will respect those privileges in the future as it has done in the past.

The other matter which Senator Givens raised does not constitute an invasion of the privileges of Parliament. At the present time it is this building which is under the control of Mr. President and Mr. Speaker, not the Houses of Parliament at Canberra. Parliament has authorized the Government to act as the constructing authority in the eretion of the Parliament House at Canberra, and has instructed it to prepare that House for the reception of Parliament. That is what the Government is doing. Therefore, until it is handed over to Mr. President and Mr. Speaker, it is in the care and underthe control of the Government. Recognizing, however, that the arrangements connected with the opening ceremony at Canberra concern not only itself but also Mr. President and Mr. Speaker, the Government has freely and fully consulted those gentlemen upon every matter pertaining to those arrangements in their application to the Houses of Parliament at Canberra; and it has their written concurrence in the arrangements that have been made. You, Mr. Deputy President, will, I think, admit that you have been frequently consulted in regard to those arrangements.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Plain). - That is so.

Senator PEARCE:

– On that point, therefore, I submit that there has been no invasion of the privileges of Parliament.

Senator KINGSMILL:
Western Australia

.- The explanation of the Leader of the Senate (Senator Pearce) has cleared up many points; but I am sure he will realize that it is necessary to call attention to any breaches of privilege that occur, because the failure of Parliament to assert its rights would lead to the creation of precedents, and the whittling away of those rights. This is no new thing in any Parliament. I am in perfect agreement on this matter with the ex-President (Senator Givens).

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Plain). - Order! I am afraid that the debate is not strictly in order. If the honorable senator desires to continue I suggest that he obtain the permission of the Senate, or move a motion.

Senator KINGSMILL:

– I shall not ask for that permission, or add to the remarks that I have already made.

page 1012

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Senator J B HAYES:
TASMANIA

– Speaking last night on the Wire and Wire Netting bill, I compared it with the Wire Netting Act of 1923, and pointed out that the provisions of the latter were far more liberal.

Judging by his interjections, the Leader of the Senate (Senator Pearce) held the opposite opinion. At the time, I was not in a position to quote the regulations that had been made under the act; but I have since obtained them, and there are two to which I should like to draw the attention of the Government. Regulation 16 reads -

No interest shall be charged by the Commonwealth or State Government in respect of moneys due, or becoming due, by a settler as payment for wire netting supplied to him under this part.

Regulation 26 (2) provides -

The cost of the wire netting supplied under this part to a settler, including all freight and handling charges to the port or station referred to in the last preceding subregulation, shall bo repayable by the settler to the Minister, free of interest, by not more than twenty equal yearly instalments extending over a period not exceeding twenty years from the 1st clay of July in the year in which the advance is made.

I said last night that either the advance was free of interest, or that there was an interest payment of 5 per cent., and no return of the capital. There is no difference between the two, because the interest payment at a rate of 5 per cent. per annum over a period of twenty years, would equal the capital amount. My reason for raising the matter now is to show that I was correct in what I said, and, what is more important, to suggest that when new regulations are being framed, the Government shall have in mind those that were made under the old act. The intention of the Minister appears to be to make the new regulations more liberal than those under the old act, and I hope this will be done so that they will confer a greater benefit upon settlers.

page 1013

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK

Leave to Employees to Attend Agricultural Shows

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– On the 17th March, 1927, Senator Hoare asked the following questions : -

  1. Is it customary for the employees of the Common wealth Bank, within the area of the capital cities of the Commonwealth, to be given the privilege of attending during working hours the annual show held within those cities?
  2. If such a privilege hasbeen granted to some employees, why has it not been extended to the Commonwealth Bank employees of Adelaide?

The Commonwealth Bank has now furnished the following information: -

  1. No.
  2. It may be explained that, in Sydney, the annual show synchronises with the Easter holidays. In the other capital cities, with the exception of Adelaide, a public holiday is proclaimed for show clay. The employees of the Commonwealth Bank in all capital cities, excepting Adelaide, thus have facilities for attending the annual show, should they so desire, but this does not arise from any discrimination on the part of the bank between its employees in the different capital cities.

page 1013

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Gas Service - Proposed Rate or ls. 3d. on Unimproved Capital Value of Land - Commission’s Reports - Business Sites- Commission Officers’ Blocks at Acton.

Does the Federal Capital Commission intend to install a gas service for heating and cooking at Canberra?

Has the Government or the Federal Capital Commission received any report from an expert or experts upon the practicability of installing such a service at Canberra?

If such a report has been received, will the Minister lay it upon the table of the Senate?

I then replied in the following terms: -

A report by the Federal Capital Commission on the question of the installation of a gas service at Canberra was to have been posted to me yesterday. An announcement as to the action decided uponin connexion therewith will be made at the earliest possible moment after the arrival of the report.

The Federal Capital Commission has received such a report.

The report will be laid upon the table of the Senate, when the decision on the subject has been announced.

I have now been advised by the Federal Capital Commission that, in order to assist it in its consideration of the matter, it has obtained reports from Mr. P. C. Holmes Hunt, consulting gas engineer, and from its own Chief Engineer, after collaboration by the latter with the Chief Electrical Engineer of the Works and Railways Department. After carefully considering these reports, the commission, realizing that an economic loss on domestic lighting, heating, and cooking utilities is inevitable for some years, and that it is sounder to concentrate upon one system than to incur increased losses on two separate systems, came to the conclusion that, for engineering and economic reasons, it should meet the position by making electricity available at attractive rates, and decided upon the adoption of the following scale of charges for domestic purposes : - Lighting, 7d. per unit; domestic’ power, l¾d. per unit; continuous electric water -heating systems,¾d. per unit. The commission has further advised that it is making arrangements which will enable public servants to obtain electric cooking stoves on a hire-purchase basis, which will be practically the same as would apply in Melbourne or Sydney. The commission hopes that its proposed agreement with the New South Wales Government for the supply of hydro-electricity, in combination with the improvements in its existing power-station now in progress, will make possible the adoption of even lower rates than those already quoted. Copies of the experts’ reports referred to by the commission will be laid on the table of the Library.

Is it a fact that the Federal Capital Commission intends to place a levy of ls. 3d. in the £1 on the unimproved capital value of all land’ held by civil servants and others at Canberra?

I have now received the following information from the Federal Capital Commission, in reply to the question by the honorable senator : -

All civil servants who have been, or will be, transferred to Canberra during the present year, and who obtain houses from the commission through the medium of the Commonwealth Bank, on rental, rental-purchase, or purchase conditions, or who acquire any houses through any other source in the city area of Canberra, will be required to pay rates under the following headings: -

General Bate.

Lighting Bate.

Water Kate.

Sewerage Kate.

General Rate. - The general rate for the current year has not yet been struck; but for the year ended 31st December, 1026, it was at the rate of 3d. in the£1 on the unimproved capital value of each parcel of rateable land which is within the city area. It is not proposed to vary this rate at present.

LightingRate. - The lighting rate for the period ended 31st December, 1926, was 2d. in the £1 on the unimproved capital value of each parcel of rateable land within the city area in any district in which lighting services had been provided. It is not proposed to vary this rate at present.

and (d) Water Rate and Sewerage Rate. - So far, no rates have been levied in respect to water and sewerage services, nor have any rates yet been determined upon in this connexion.

The necessity to construct services for a population which will not accrue at Canberra for many years, has involved a capital cost in respect of which it will be impossible to recover the proper annual return from the present population, or from the population that is likely to be served, for many years. The commission’s policy, therefore, will be to deal with the matter on a comparative basis, and it proposes to fix for such services rates similar to those which are charged in cities in other parts of Australia similar in size to Canberra, and subject to conditions which are approximately the same as those obtaining at Canberra. With a view to determining this matter at an early date, the commission has obtained information from the principal water supply and sewerage authorities throughout the Commonwealth, and it is now considering this data with the object of deciding upon an equitable basis.

Senator GRANT:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. How many quarterly or other reports has the Minister received from the Federal Capital Commission ?
  2. Will he make such reports available to senators.
Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– The Federal Capital Commission has submitted a report in respect of each quarter during which it has been in existence. It has also submitted a report for the six months ended 30th June, 1925, and for the year ended 30th June, 1926. These reports have been laid upon the table of the Senate.

Senator ELLIOTT:
VICTORIA

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. In view of the extraordinary rise in upset prices of business blocks at Canberra, amounting in some cases to 300 per cent, in twelve months, will the Minister, in the event of all such blocks not being sold, reduce the price of the unsold blocks to a reasonable amount?
  2. If, in spite of the high upset prices placed upon the small number of blocks submitted at the forthcoming sale, these blocks are sold, will the Minister direct that further blocks be forthwith made available ?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW.The honorable senator’s questions relate to a function which falls entirely within the province of the Federal Capital Commission, but the Minister will discuss the matter with the commission.

Yesterday I informed Senator Dun can, in reply to certain questions asked by him, that information regarding the area and rental of land occupied by certain officers of the Federal Capital Commission at Acton was being awaited. I now submit the following particulars in answer to the honorable senator’s inquiry:

The rental of these blocks has been computed in accordance with the provisions of the City Area Leases Ordinance 1924- 1926, and was included in the figures shown in my previous reply under the heading of “ Rental of houses per annum.”

page 1015

QUESTION

ANILINE DYES

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · QUEENSLAND · NAT

– On the 18th of March Senator Guthrie asked the following questions : -

  1. Have any alterations been recently made in the arrangements for the licensing of foreign aniline dyes for entry into Australia?
  2. If so, what are the altered arrangements, and when did they come into force?
  3. Have the commercial agents of the various aniline dye manufacturing concerns represented in Australia been advised of such altered arrangements, if any?
  4. If the granting of licences has been transferred to London, has the Minister for Trade and Customs arranged, or will he arrange, that the experts in control in London forward to the Customs Department in Australia samples of all aniline dyes licensed for Australia?
  5. Has the Minister arranged, or will he arrange, that samples of all aniline dyes licensed shall be tested against the samples upon which licence was granted in London?
  6. What quantities and values of Britishmade and German-made dyestuffs respectively have been entered into Melbourne and Sydney respectively during the last seven months?
  7. What samples of foreign aniline dyes entered into Melbourne and Sydney during the past seven months have been examined to ascertain whether or not the dyes entered conformed with the licence granted?
  8. Have there been any rejections on the ground of non-conformity?

I am now able to furnish the following answers to the honorable senator’s questions : -

  1. Yes.
  2. All applications for licences to import foreign dyes must now be made to the High Commissioner’s Office, London, and they are then submitted to the British Board of Trade for advice as to whether equivalent dyes of British origin are available. This arrangement came into operation in January. 1927.
  3. Yes. 4 and 5. No such arrangements with regard to samples have been made, but the matter is receiving consideration.
  4. The values are- British, £77,741; German, £34,318. The quantities of dyes imported are not recorded for statistical purposes.
  5. Ninety-eight, approximately.

page 1015

QUESTION

AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION

Senator ABBOTT:

– I should like to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council what steps the Government intends taking to submit to Parliament a report on the proposed alteration of the Constitution, and if it is intended to hold a special session of Parliament to deal with this important matter?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– As honorable senators are aware, the Government was hopeful of being able to constitute a select committee representative of both Houses of Parliament, and also of all parties in Parliament, to consider proposed amendments of the Constitution. Unfortunately, an agreement between all parties could not be reached. The Opposition, in particular, objected to the manner in which the Government’s proposal had been put forward, and, owing to the pressure of business in both Houses, it has since been impossible for Ministers to get together to reconsider the position and decide what their future course should be. Immediately after the rising of Parliament the matter will be reconsidered in the light of the situation that now exists, and further action will then be taken.

page 1015

QUESTION

PRICE OF SUPERPHOSPHATES

Senator H HAYS:
TASMANIA

– I should like to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council whether the attention of the Prime Minister has been directed to the discrepancy between the price charged for superphosphates in New Zealand and that charged in the Commonwealth for fertilizers carrying the same analyses. The difference is about £2 a ton, and: seeing that the raw material in both cases is drawn from th& same source, I should like to know if inquiries will be made to ascertain how this marked discrepancy comes about, and why it should exist?

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

– The Prime Minister has already announced that it is his intention to ask Mr. Olive Macpherson, who has recently been appointed as the Commonwealth’s representative on the Phosphate Commission, to inquire into the comments thatha ve been made on this matter in both Houses of Parliament, and to furnish the Government with a report.

page 1016

PAPERS

The following papers were pre- sented : -

Northern Territory - Report of the Acting Administrator, for the year ended 30th June, 1926.

Papua - Annual Report for the year 1925-26.

Ordered to be printed.

Taxation - Tenth Eeport of the Commissioner of Taxation, years 1923-24, 1924-25, and 1925-26.

Arbitration (Public Service) Act. - Determination by the Arbitrator, &c, No. 1 of 1927 - Amalgamated Engineering Union.

Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure -

Year ended 30th June, 1925.

Year ended 30th June, 1926.

Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for Additions, New Works, Buildings, &c. -

Year ended 30th June,1925.

Year ended 30th June, 1926.

Commonwealth Public Service Act - Regula tions amended - Statutory Rules 1927, No. 26.

Appointment of L.D. A. Lyons, AttorneyGeneral’s Department.

Federal Capital - Electricity and Gas Services - Proposals of the Federal Capital Commission - Particulars of proposed Rating.

page 1016

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and Sessional Orders suspended.

Bill (on motion by Senator Crawford) read a first time.

page 1016

COMMONWEALTH INSCRIBED STOCK BILL

Bill returned from the House of Representatives without amendment.

page 1016

PETROLEUM PROSPECTING BILL

Second Reading

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

[ 11.42]. - I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Honorable senators will remember that, in 1926, a measure, entitled the Petroleum Prospecting Act, was passed to provide funds for certain purposes in connexion with the search for petroleum in Australia. That act appropriated the sum of £60,000, and the Minister was empowered to make advances - (a) to persons or companies engaged in the search for oil in Australia for the purpose of testing their holdings; (b) to assist persons, companies, or State Governments to make detailed geological surveys. Under its provisions the following sums have already been allocated for assistance in the search for oil in the following areas : - Fitzroy River area, Western Australia, up to £22,500 ;. Belford Dome area, New South Wales, up to £22,500; total, £45,000. One bore was sunk in the Orallo district, Queensland, by the Lander Oil Company, from advances provided by the Commonwealth, the assistance given by the Commonwealth amounting to £7,021. The bore reached bedrock without meeting with any favorable indications. As far as geological surveys by State Governments are concerned, the Commonwealth made offers to the Queensland-, Victorian, and South Australian Governments to bear half the cost of surveys in certain specified districts. The Queensland Government has not availed itself of the offer, and the South Australian Government has decided not to co-operate in the surveys proposed by the Commonwealth in the Glenelg River district. But the Victorian Government decided to execute a geological survey in that portion of the Glenelg River area which lies within Victoria, and that survey is now proceeding. The Commonwealth’s liability, in connexion with the work will, it is expected, not exceed £2,000. It will thus be observed that the funds appropriated by the act of 1926 have been either spent or allocated for specific purposes. In the last budget it was shown that the sum of £100,000 had been set aside for further assistance in connexion with prospecting for petroleum and precious metals. As the funds al- ready appropriated by the Precious Metals Prospecting Act have not yet been expended, the Government has decided to. allot the whole sum of £100,000 for further expenditure in connexion with petroleum, prospecting. The Commonwealth’s interest in the search for oil in Australia and the Territories has, in the past, extended in specific directions. Formerly a reward of £50,000 was offered, under certain conditions, for the discovery of oil in payable quantities within the Commonwealth. But that principle was abandoned, and the policy laid down in the. Petroleum Prospecting A et, that of affording active financial assistance in approved areas, was adopted. Approximately £3S5,000 has already been expended by the Commonwealth in connexion with the search for oil in Papua. This expenditure has been incurred on active operations at Upoia and Popo.. Prior to the control by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company , eight bores were sunk, and the company, since it took over control in 1920, has sunk three bores at Popo to the following depths: - No.. 1, 1,825 feet; No. 2 , 894 feet; No. 3, 2707 feet. None of these bores reached the petroliferous zone; but in view of the optimistic reports of the geologists, arrangements are now being made far the sinking of a- fourth bore on a site chosen by the company. In the past it has been, the practice to appropriate in the annual estimates fund? for this purpose ; but it is now proposed to appropriate funds for future requirements under this measure. “Up to the present the Commonwealth has not made advances to companies engaged in. the search for oil in Papua or New Guinea. The Anglo-Persian Oil Company conducted geological surveys fairly extensively in Papua, and to a limited degree in New Guinea. The Commonwealth reservation at Popo, Papua* was chosen as a result of those surveys, and other areas in Papua and all areas in the Mandated Territory were thrown open for licence and lease to private persons or companies. Numerous companies operating m both Papua and New Guinea reive requested the Government to afford them financial assistance for their boring- operations; but, in the present circumstances he Government is unable to aceede to these requests. In some- cases the companies are operating- in areas adversely reported upon by the company’s geologists, and in other cases we have no reliable and independent geological data. The most careful consideration has been given to the position of companies working in the two territories, and upon my recommendation the Government has decided to- institute further vigorous and1 searching surveys. The Prime Minister gave personal attention while in London recently to the Commonwealth’s petroleum prospecting activities, and had discussions with Sir John Cadman, vice- chairman of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. As a result of the Government’s earnest endeavours it is anticipated that some experts will soon visit the territories and there conduct surveys in agreed areas. “When the Government receives the reports of these surveys it will formulate its policy as far as assistance to companies operating in the territories is concerned. As- a result of negotiations with applicants for assistance, and of continued study of this problem, the Government has been impressed with the fact that the most common failings of companies operating both in the Commonwealth itself and1 the territories are - (a) insufficient geological work prior to the choice of sites and commencement of boring operations ; (ft) under-capitalization. Companies engaged in the search for oil should realize that the first work of importance is to thoroughly explore the surface indications in order to select the most suitable sites for boring. In a few cases there has been gratifying evidence of patient and careful surface surveys; but it is thought that in other cases companies persist in sinking bores with very little geological information, or even in the face of adverse evidence. It must be obvious that a responsible Minister cannot part with public funds to assist ventures of that kind, and I assure honorable senators that the requirements in regard to adequate surface examinations will’ be very stringent. I realize that it is frequently difficult for small individual companies to secure the services of eminent geologists. The Government’s, action, in ‘arranging a few years ago for Dr. Wade to carry out detailed inspections throughout Australia is evidence of its recognition of this fact. The Government’s policy, as far as the Commonwealth is- concerned, has been based upon- Dr. Wade’s reports. The- surveys in the territories now being arranged for would be of advantage, not only to the companies operating there, who would in consequence be placed in a position similar to that enjoyed by companies in Australia, but ‘also to the Government whose future line of action would thereby be made quite clear. As far as undercapitalization is concerned, it is most disappointing for a Minister to find that ‘a company operating in an area which, perhaps, has quite good prospects is possessed of so little capital that it is very difficult for him ‘ to risk Commonwealth funds in the venture. It is not sufficient for a company to put up funds which, together with Commonwealth assistance of a like amount, will meet the cost of a bore if all goes well. If the Government were to agree to make an advance under those conditions and protracted operations became necessary owing to loss of tools in the bore, caving difficult strata, or other unforeseen happening, it would have to continue to meet the whole of the expenditure from public funds at its disposal or abandon the work at an inconclusive stage. All that can possibly be done to observe the spirit of the legislation, which, obviously, is to assist in the testing of promising areas which would not otherwise be tested, will be done; but the companies which stand to reap most benefit from success must also do their part. I have submitted a somewhat comprehensive statement of the Government’s position in this matter in the hope that honorable senators will be able to pass the bill without lengthy discussion.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

.- It will, I think, be admitted that the discovery of petroleum in the Commonwealth or the territories under its control would be of greater benefit than would the discovery of important gold mines. I, therefore, welcome the introduction of this measure. It is a great improvement upon the present act, which was a miserable attempt to encourage prospecting for petroleum. When that measure was under discussion I pointed out that the amount provided was insufficient, and that the scope of the bill was too limited. In this measure the Government has gone a great deal further, and is now asking Parliament to increase the amount to be expended from £60,000 to £160,000. There is a further improvement in this measure since it applies to the territories of the Commonwealth, which were not included in the original act. When speaking on that measure I pointed out several directions in which it fell short of what was required. First, that the money set aside was inadequate. Secondly, that the Government should . provide sufficient money and act in conjunction with the State departments in connexion with geological surveys; and thirdly, that the scope of the bill should be extended to the territories under the control of the Commonwealth. I am glad to find thai for once this Government has accepted the advice of the Leader of the Opposition in this Chamber, and has shown that it is not so decadent as we sometimes believe. I congratulate the Government upon increasing the amount, and trust the day is not far distant when petroleum will be obtained in Australia in payable quantities. I support the bill.

Senator ABBOTT:
New South Wales

– I agree with the views expressed by the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Needham) who said that it was gratifying to note that under the bill the amount had been increased from £60,000 to £160,000,. and that the operations were to be extended to the territories under the control of the Commonwealth. It has been stated that supplies of petroleum from American sources will be exhausted in about six years; but there are other areas - in Trans-Caucasian territory, for instance, as well as in Sumatra, Java, and Timor - yet to be exploited. Companies, in which a good deal of Australian capital has been invested, are also operating to-day in New Guinea. There is an impression in the minds of certain persons who have placed money in these ventures, particularly in the Mandated Territory, that certain vested interests, including even the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, are anxious to discourage the discovery of oil. I am not referring to Dr. Wade, or any other person at the moment. The Minister (Senator Glasgow) said that certain companies were conducting .operations and spending money in the Mandated Territory and elsewhere before the necessary geological research work had been undertaken, and that in these circumstances the Government could not see its way to help them, because it would toe, so to speak, throwing money away. In this connexion I have in mind the work of two or three Australians including Dr. Jensen, geological surveyor in Queensland, and Dr. Gilruth, who was for some time in the Northern Territory, both of whom possesses excellent credentials. Dr. Jensen has spent months in suitable areas, has undertaken surveys, and reported to those whose interests he was representing, whereas other officials have .made only a most cursory examination, and, so far as can be gathered, have reported to the Government that it would be unwise to render financial assistance, because the areas in which it was proposed to carry ‘ on operations were unsuitable.

Senator Foll:

– To which particular areas is the honorable senator referring?

Senator ABBOTT:

– I am speaking generally concerning operations in the Mandated Territory; but also include certain other propositions which have been investigated in the Commonwealth. I repeat that there is a pronounced feeling abroad that certain interests do not wish oil to be discovered in the Mandated Territory or in any territory under the control of the Commonwealth. I am not saying that any particular person advances that view ; but it must be admitted that there has been great difficulty in getting financial assistance owing to the action of vested interests. It has been said that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company does not wish any new fields to be opened in the Commonwealth or the territories under its control. I ask the Government to take cognisance of the surveys that have been made by eminent geologists on whose reports a good deal of Australian money has been invested in the search for oil. A company should not simply be told that it was foolish to commence boring in a particular area, and that it should have operated elsewhere. It is possible that those persons who have reported adversely on the sites chosen by Dr. Jensen are no better fitted to give an opinion than he is.

Senator Foll:

– Complaint is made that the Government will consider the opinion of no expert other than Dr. Wade.

Senator ABBOTT:

- Dr. Wade is an expert whose opinion is valued throughout the world.

Senator Foll:

– That is so. I am not reflecting on him in any way.

Senator ABBOTT:

– We know what he has done elsewhere. Nevertheless, there is a feeling that even Dr. Wade, in one of his Foster-Fraser trips to the Mandated Territory may not have been so well fitted to judge the possibilities of finding oil as were those men who had been on the spot for months, and had made exhaustive surveys. Dr. Jensen spent a considerable time in New Guinea, and on his report much Australian capital has been invested in companies searching for oil there. It seems hard that the people who have invested that money should now be informed that, because Dr. Wade reported unfavorably on the location of the bores in which they are interested, Government assistance will be refused.

Senator Needham:

Dr. Wade has a high reputation in his profession.

Senator H Hays:

– The Government must be guided bv its expert adviser.

Senator ABBOTT:

– I hope that those who have expressed the fear that further discoveries of oil will not be welcome, are wrong, and that, before long, oil in payable quantities will be found either in Australia, or in some of the territories under its control. The increasing use of motor transport renders essential a regular supply of large quantities of oil. In this respect we are now largely in the hands of the American combines. Every encouragement should be given to those companies which are prepared to expend their capital in the search for oil. If they have sunk bores in localities recommended by their geological experts, the Government should not act arbitrarily and refuse them assistance merely because the opinion of those experts differs from that of the . Government’s own adviser. These companies should receive sympathetic treatment from the Government.

Senator GRANT:
New South Wales

– Some time ago I listened with considerable interest to a speech by Senator Pearce in which he quoted extensively from the report of Dr. Wade. I regret that, so far, all the efforts which have been made to discover oil in payable quantities, either in Australia or in the territories under its control, have been fruitless. Although I consider that the Government should render assistance to those companies which are prepared to prospect for oil, it is right in refusing to subscribe public money to assist companies which have decided to bore in localities concerning which an unfavorable or no report has been made by the expert engaged by the Government to advise it. It is useless to engage an expert geologist, and then to disregard his advice. Dr. Jensen may be a competent man, but the Government must be guided in these matters by its own expert adviser. Dr. Wade is in the front rank of his profession, and should his opinion conflict with that of other geologists, the Government can do no other than follow his advice. Senator Glasgow, whom I congratulate on his appointment as Minister for Defence, said that a number of bores had been sunk to a considerable depth, but had not reached the strata in which it was expected that oil would be found. I am at a loss to understand why those bores were not sunk to a greater depth. Surely it would be easier to sink them still further than to proceed again from the surface. The Minister did not inform us of the distance between the three bores which he mentioned. One can understand that the discontinuance of work at those bores has given rise to the rumours to which Senator Abbott referred. Considerable sums of money have been expended in the search for oil in Australia, Papua, and the Mandated Territory of New Guinea, but, so far, without result. It is generally admitted that in Borneo, Sumatra, and Java, there are oil deposits which, as yet, have not been exploited to any great exteut. Australia is dependent on Persia and the United States of America for her oil supplies. I support the Government’s proposal to make available an additional sum of money to assist in the search for oil, but I disagree with Senator Abbott that financial assistance should bc given to those companies which have sunk bores in localities not recommended by the Government’s expert adviser. It is not sufficient to say that those companies are prepared to invest their capital on the advice of their own geologists. We all know that gold-seekers and those who search for oil are confirmed optimists. It is well that they are; but a Government must regard its revenue as a sacred trust. In order to prevent, as far as possible, the waste of public money in the search for oil, the Government obtained the services of the best man avail able. Dr. Wade reported on variousareas, and the Government is doing right in following his advice. It is possiblethat, in regions concerning which he has reported unfavorably, oil may be found, and vice versa; but the Government can. do no other than heed his advice. I trust that it will adhere to that principle, and not allow public money to be expended in areas concerning which Dr. Wade has reported unfavorably.

SenatorREID (Queensland) [12.13].- Because of the increasing use of motor transport, the discovery of oil in Australia would be welcomed by all. Much has been said regarding the necessity for following the advice of the expert whose services were obtained by the Government to report on various localities in which it was thought oil might be found; but the experts are not always right. The Queensland Government at one time engaged an expert to advise it as to the best sites at which to sink bores for water. Acting on his advice, the Government concluded that it would be useless to sink bores in certain areas; but, in spite of the expert advice, private individuals sank bores in those areas, and obtained excellent water. In theRoma district of Queensland, where petroleum gas has been found in large quantities, prospecting for oil has continued] for some time, but, so far, no oil in payable quantities has been discovered there. The companies operating in that district have been unfortunate in that several mishaps have occurred in connexion with the boring machinery. Senator Abbott said there was an impression abroad that certain vested interests did not desire that oil should bc discovered in Australia, Papua, or the Mandated Territory of New Guinea. Those interested in boring operations in the Roma district are firmly convinced that American influences were responsible for the difficulties encountered there. On two occasions the bore casing became choked with tools that had been dropped.

Senator Graham:

– Is it a fact that one bore was blown up with dynamite?

Senator REID:
QUEENSLAND

– No; but tools have been dropped, and it has been found impossible to withdraw them. I trust that the Government will reconsider the claims of those people who have expended se much money on drilling in the Roma dis- tri et, ami that their applications for assistance will be favorably considered.

Senator Payne:

– Has all the work that has been done there gone for nothing?

Senator REID:

– In the case of two bores it has been absolutely lost owing to mishaps which, it is believed, were caused deliberately.

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

– I support the Government’s proposal, but have considerable doubt about the prospect of obtaining flow oil in Australia. Possibly we may be successful in New Guinea. 1 should like to stress the importance of instructing the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research to continue its investigations into the extraction of oil from coal, because I am confident that our best hope lies along those lines. There are immense deposits of coal in central and northern Queensland, as well as in other parts of Australia.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Plain). - Order ! The bill contains no provision for the extraction of oil from coal.

Senator THOMPSON:

– I am aware of that. I am expressing a doubt as to the prospect of obtaining flow oil in Australia, and 1 think I am entitled to show that there are other sources from which it may be obtained. However, I have no desire to dissent from your ruling, though I venture to think that I am in order. All I wish to say now is that I hope that the avenue which I regard as our surest and best hope will have the careful consideration of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

– This bill should be of vital interest t& all honorable senators in view of the unanimous desire for the success of. efforts that are being made to discover oil in the Commonwealth and its Mandated Territory. 1 listened attentively to the Minister’s second-reading speech. I should like some information as to the reason for discontinuing boring operations at the sites mentioned by him. Can he say if drilling bore out the anticipations of the geologists? If not, we can only come to the conclusion that the technical advisers have been at fault. No one is more anxious than I am that Australia should get a satisfactory return for the heavy expenditure incurred to date; but, with Senator Thompson, I believe that there is little chance of discovering flow oil in Australia. I should be loth to suggest the abandonment of the whole scheme; but I fear that wo shall have to call a halt if no return for heavy expenditure is secured soon. I trust, however, that the granting of additional financial assistance will lead to good results, and I hcp that, when next Ave are dealing with this subject, we shall have a definite statement from the Minister to show if the geological surveys of the various sites are borne out by boring operations.

Senator H HAYS:
Tasmania

. - In supporting the bill, I should like to say that I share the views expressed by Senator Abbott. It would be dangerous to grant assistance to companies or private persons engaged iu drilling for oil on localities other than those approved by the Commonwealth’s technical adviser. On this point, I may state that, some time ago, the Tasmanian geologist warned the public against investing in companies formed for the purpose of boring for flow oil in that State. He stated that he took full responsibility as a Government official when he said that a geological survey of the State did not justify boring operations for flow- oil. That was a big responsibility for a Government official to take. I know that his advice was strongly resented not only by companies but also by investors. I agree with Senator Thompson that it is highly desirable that the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research should continue its investigations into the extraction of oil from coal, as is being done in other Countries, particularly Germany. Perhaps my remarks under this head do not come strictly within the four corners of the bill; but, on an occasion like this, one might expect a little latitude, because the two subjects are interwoven. The object of the bill is to encourage boring operations for flow oil; but the sole purpose in view is to secure an adequate supply of fuel oil to meet Australian requirements. I commend the Government for its action in increasing the amount, to be made available to prospectors; but I suggest that, side by side with that work, we should see what can be done in the production, on a commercial scale, of oil from shale or coal. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research should be able to render valuable assistance.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland - Minister for Defence) . [12.28]. - I am pleased to have the general approval of honorable senators for the bill, though I note that Senators Thompson and Hays expressed a doubt as to the prospect of obtaining flow oil except, perhaps, in Papua or New Guinea. It is hardly necessary to remind them that the bill has nothing to do with proposals for the extraction of fuel oil from coal or shale. That is a matter for the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.

Senator Foll:

– That subject was fully investigated by the Public Accounts Committee some time ago.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– As a matter of fact, there has been a great deal of research in all countries during recent years; but that matter does not come within the scope of the bill. I know of nothing that would have a more important bearing on the development of the Commonwealth, or its defence, than the discovery of flow oil either in Australia or the adjacent islands. In recent years there has been an extraordinary development in the use of mechanical means of transport. The bill is an indication that the Government is displaying an interest in this matter. I have been asked by what means the Government is endeavouring to prosecute prospecting in Papua and New Guinea. It is utilizing the services of the experienced officers of the AngloPersian Oil Company. The management of that company has placed at the disposal of the Commonwealth some of its leading geologists, as well as Mr. Maslin, who is recognized as a boring expertof very high repute.

Senator Foll:

– And a most conscientious officer.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW.As Senator Foll has stated, he is a most conscientious officer. Honorable senators may, perhaps, remember that some little time ago the Committee of Public Accounts investigated and reported on boring operations at Popo, in New Guinea. Senator Abbott wished to be furnished with evidence of the reliability of the work that is being done by the AngloPersian Oil Company and its officers. On that point I shall quote from the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. It says -

In conclusion the committee is of opinion that, as a result of its close investigation of the work of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company Limited, and its officers in Popo, and a visit to the scene of operations at Popo, there is nojustification for the insinuation oft repeated that the company is not doing its best on behalf of the Commonwealth Government to find oil in the Territory. The services of the company’s experts have been placed at the disposal of the Commonwealth Government for the performance of this work, and only actual expenditure incurred by the company in connexion with operations in Papua is allowed it.

I have spoken to some of the members of that committee who saw the work which had been done by Mr. Maslin. They were impressed not only by his knowledge of boring operations, but also by the earnestness with which he was endeavouring to make successful the sinking of a very difficult bore at Popo. Senator Grant asked why the company had not been able to get that bore down. The reason was that they struck a strata consisting of mud stones. As the casing was dropped the strata froze on to it, and it was impossible to get through themudstones. Mr. Maslin was so anxious to find a way of overcoming the difficulty that, at his own expense, he visited the oil fields of the United States of America to see if there was one on which a similar difficulty had been experienced. Senator Abbott asked why various syndicates and companies that are operating in Papua and New Guinea have not so far been granted any assistance. The reason is, first, that the moneys appropriated by the act have been exhausted; and, secondly, the advice of the experts of the AngloPersian Oil Company in regard to certain areas in Papua was unfavorable, and the examinations in New Guinea were restricted and inconclusive. Geologists have been specially engaged by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company to make a special examination of all likely areas in the territory, including those held under licence. As soon as those experts arrive they will make a geological survey of the territory, and when their reports are received the Government will consider whether assistance should be rendered in respect of areas that are at present held under licence. Senator Reid referred to operations at Orallo and Roma, in Queensland. A considerable amount of work has been done at Orallo, but the results have not been favorable. The Commonwealth Government paid over £7,000 to the Orallo Company to enable it to sink a bore; but the indications at the bottom were not at all favorable, and on the advice of Mr Ball, the geologist, it was decided to discontinue it. The question of assisting the subsidiary company of the Orallo Company to enable it to commence boring at Roma will be considered by the Government.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Payments to trust account).

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

Senator Abbott referred to the impression that was abroad that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company is not desirous of discovering oil in Australia. I do not hold a brief for that company. I admit that at one time I thought there was some justification for the rumour; but I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, which conducted a very exhaustive inquiry into the charge, in the course of which it visited Popo, advertising in advance its intention to do so, and inviting any one who so desired to appear before it, and give evidence to support the charge. No such evidence was given. That inquiry convinced me that there was not the slightest justification for assuming that the company was not desirous of discovering oil in either Australia or its territories. I had every opportunity, with other members of the committee, to see the whole of the operations that were being carried on in Papua. I came into contact with all of the officials who were acting on behalf of both the Commonwealth Government and the company. Every man was carrying out faithfully -and well the duty that had been entrusted to him - that of endeavouring to discover oil. It has been stated that drills disappeared in certain bores. That is unavoidable. The bore at Popo was abandoned because expert advice was to the effect that it should be sunk in a different position. Any one who has witnessed boring operations must realize the enormous difficulties that are encountered when a drill drops. In justice to the company, I repeat the statement that no evidence was given to the committee in support of the charges made against it.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 1023

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

Second Reading

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · Queensland · NAT

– I move -

That the billbe now read a second time.

This bill will give to the War Service Homes Commissioner power to make advances not exceeding £950 in respect of those applicants who have already been provided with a home. In the past the maximum amount which could be loaned under the act was £800, and in New South Wales and Victoria, particularly, difficulty has been experienced in supplying other than a house of ordinary accommodation within that limit. Generally, when an applicant set’s about obtaining a home, he has a small family; but families increase as the years pass, and additional accommodation in the home becomes absolutely essential. Unless the full amount of £800 has not been expended by the occupier, a further advance may not be made. With the object of remedying this position and enabling loans to be made to supply additional accommodation the present amendments to the act are proposed. It does not follow that every past applicant will receive an additional loan, or that he will receive the full additional amount of £150. The Commissioner’s decision will be governed by the facts in each case, but, generally speaking, where it is shown that further accommodation is required to house the applicant’s family, an additional loan, not exceeding £150, will be made to meet his needs, provided, of course, that the applicant is in a position to repay it. The amendments will also apply to future aDplicants; but they, like past applicants, will be limited to a maximum loan of £800 unless the Commissioner is of opinion that a loan greater than £800, but not exceeding £950, is necessary to provide essential accommodation for a particular applicant’s family or his dependants. A consequential amendment Las been made to section 18a of the act, whichhas also been altered to enable the expenditure to be definitely recoverable by the Commissioner. As honorable senators will notice, section 28a is repealed. This section, to an extent, repeated the provisions of sections18 and 21. and made an addition to them. The addition has now been included in the amendments made by the bill.

For some years now the War Service Homes Commission has been doing excellent work. Under the reorganized administration the losses of the past have been stopped, the department has been established on a sound financial basis, irritating restrictions have been removed, and complaints have been reduced to a minimum. The operations of the Commission to date include -

To the 31st January lastthe total expenditure of the commission has been £23,482,205, and the receipts have amounted to £9.661,081. Portion of the repayments are transferred to the National Debt Sinking Fund, and in the last financial year the sum so transferred was £744,548. The percentage of instalments outstanding is only 1.13, which honorable senators will agree is very satisfactory. Each case of arrears is dealt with sympathetically, and that policy will continue to be exercised in the future.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I am pleased that it is now proposed to amend the act in a direction that has been advocated by honorable senators of the Opposition for some time past. An advance of £950 is little enough to help a soldier to get a home for himself. I hope that the act will be administered sympathetically, as the Minister says, because I have heard of cases where sympathy has not been shown. In a few instances where a soldier has been unable to meet his repayments the fault may have teen his own ; but there have been , many occasions when a little sympathetic consideration would have enabled the occupier of a home to liquidate his lia bility to the commission. I welcome, however, the assurance given by the Minister that this measure will be administered with that sympathetic consideration upon which the success of this repatriation effort depends. We must remember that the promises we made to the men when they enlisted to go through the hell of war have not altogether been fulfilled.

Senator ELLIOTT:
Victoria

– I should like to know how returned soldiers who are members of the Public Service will be treated on being transferred to Canberra. If they already possess homes in Melbourne, will it be possible for them to get houses at Canberra on the same favorable terms?

Senator Crawford:

– If they do not already possess homes they will be able to get assistance under the War Service Homes Act.

Senator ELLIOTT:

– I understand that the Government is taking over the houses of transferred officers.

Senator Crawford:

– Yes; if it is the wish of the officers.

Senator ELLIOTT:

– Will those homes ultimately be disposed of by the Government ?

Senator Crawford:

– Yes.

Senator ELLIOTT:

– I wish to know if the man who has obtained a war service home, and hands it over to the Government on his transfer to Canberra, will be eligible to obtain a house at Canberra under the favorable terms laid down in the War Service Homes Act?

Senator Crawford:

– He will be able to do so.

Senator ELLIOTT:

– That is fair. If it were not done those officers who had obtained war service homes in Melbourne under favorable circumstances might be hampered in financing their homes at Canberra, where they will be called upon to pay extraordinarily high ground rents. If the War Service Homes Commission can facilitate their acquisition of homes at Canberra it should to a great extent relieve the situation. Private financiers will be very chary of advancing money on homes at the Federal Capital because of the large ground rents. It will soon eat into the margin of equity ifa house is vacant for a few months. I congratulate the War Service Homes Com- mission on the splendid work it has done. The successful operations of recent years have largely obliterated from the memory of returned soldiersthe mistakes of earlier years. An increase in the amount of the advance should remove some of the difficulties now encountered in securing homes for the £800 for which provision was made in the act. The present day cost of making roads is out of all proportion to what it was when the act was first brought in. For instance, at Seddon, near Melbourne, the occupiers of war service homes built by the Savings Bank have been called upon to pay amounts up to £200 for the concrete roads that the local municipal council has built to cope with motor transport. I hope that the passing of this bill will allow the Commonwealth to come to the assistance of those men and tide them over their difficulty.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

Sitting suspended from 12.58 to 2.15 p.m.

page 1025

DEFENCE BILL (No. 2)

Suspension of Standing Orders.

Senator PEARCE:
Vice President of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

– As a short bill of a very urgent character has unfortunately been overlooked, and it is essential that it should be passed before the Senate adjourns, it is necessary for me -to move for the suspension of the Standing and Sessional Orders to enable the measure to be introduced and passed to-day. I move -

That so much of the Standing and Sessional Orders bo suspended as would prevent the introduction and passage , th rough all stages without delay of a bill for an act to amend section 124 of the Defence Act 1903-18.

The urgency of this matter is occasioned by the fact that we find that we have not the power which we thought we Dossessed under the Defence Act to safeguard our coastal defences by preventing, by regulation the erection of buildings in the arc of fire. In the interests of the defence of the Commonwealth I ask the Senate to agree to the motion, so that we may pass the bill without delay.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

.- The Minister (Senator Pearce) was good enough to inform me of the urgency of this measure to-day, and as I believe that the proposed amendment of the Defence Act is necessary, I shall not offer any objection to the suspension of the Standing Orders.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Plain) -There being an absolute majority of the Senate present, and no dissentient voice being raised, I declare the motion carried.

Motion (by Senator Pearce) agreed to-

That leavebe given to bring in a bill for an act to amend section 124 of the Defence Act 1903-1918.

Bill presented by Senator Sir William Glasgow, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

[2.35]. - I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

This is a very short measure to amend section 124 of the Defence Act 1903-18, which deals with the particular matters that may be prescribed by regulation. At present there is no power to control the erection of buildings within certain areas in the proximity of forts, nor is there power to prohibit factories in the vicinity of forts from issuing smoke during or immediately before any military or air force practice so as to become a nuisance. It is, therefore, essential that these matters should be made the subject of regulations. Not only is it essential that the efficiency of the fortifications should not be affected by the proximity of buildings within the arc of fire ; but it is also desirable in the national interest that any industrial works should not be liable to attack and possible destruction. It is also essential that these buildings should not be the means of presenting a larger target to the enemy.

Senator Duncan:

– Has any trouble been experienced in that way, or is there any impending trouble ?

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:

– Yes : this is to prevent possible trouble.

Senator NEEDHAM (Western Aus of the measure is to provide by regulation that no factory or building shall be constructed within the arc of fire of any fort, and also to prevent the smoke nuisance during practice. It is hardly likely that buildings would be erected in the arc of fire ; but if there is no power at present to prevent the erection of buildings in such a situation it should be provided. I support the bill.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

page 1026

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL 1924-25

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and Sessional Orders suspended.

Bill (on motion by Senator Pearce) read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator PEARCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

.- I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

It is the custom to provide on the Estimates each year a vote entitled “ Advance to the Treasurer.” This enables the Treasurer to make advances to the various Commonwealth departments to meet expenditure not provided” for in the ordinary divisions of the Estimates. Particulars of such expenditure must afterwards be included in a parliamentary appropriation. The “ Supplementary Estimates now submitted to honorable senators relate to the accounts of the year 1924-25. It is usual for Supplementary Estimates to be submitted after the annual report of the Auditor-General and the Treasurer’s financial statement have been presented to Parliament. As the last Parliament closed shortly after the end of the financial year 1924-25, it was not possible for the Auditor-General’s report to be laid on the table of the Senate before the new Parliament met in January, 1926. Pressure of business during the first period of this session was so great that there was no previous opportunity to bring forward Supplementary Estimates. The vote for Treasurer’s Advance for 1924-25 was £1,500,000, and the expenditure £1,339,058. Details of this expenditure are now submitted to honorable senators in the Supplementary Estimates for 1924-25. The summarized totals are as follow : -

The items making up these amounts were included in the statements of receipts and expenditure of the Commonwealth, which were contained in the budget for the year 1925-26. They have, therefore, already been before the Senate. Reference was also made to the main items when I read a statement of the financial position of the Commonwealth to honorable senators on the 3rd of July, 1925. Details are also set out in the AuditorGeneral’s report and Treasurer’s financial statement for 1924-25, copies of which have been circulated to honorable senators. In the circumstances, it is not necessary to refer at length to the expenditure which is now submitted for the approval of Parliament. Honorable senators who are not fully acquainted with the procedure of this Chamber may think it peculiar to seek approval after the money has been spent. This, however, is not an unusual practice; it has been followed from the inception of federation. Our financial year closes on the 30th of June, and there are obviously items of expenditure to be incurred, especially when Parliament is not sitting, which, in the interests of the Commonwealth, should be incurred. . For this purpose Parliament advances to the Treasurer a Treasurer’s Advance, from which this unexpected expenditure is met. In order that honorable senators may know whether any expenditure of a questionable nature has been incurred, it is the practice to hold over these Estimates until the AuditorGeneral’s report has been received. In his report he draws attention to those items which, in his opinion, should be brought under the special notice of Parliament. Honorable senators will agree that these estimates could not properly have been presented before the Auditor-General’s report was available. That is the reason for the procedure, adopted ; it is common to all Parliaments.

Senator NEEDHAM (Western Aus procedure has been adopted; hut I cannot accept the statement of the right honorable gentleman that pressure of business is the reason for the delay in introducing this bill, which provides for the appropriation of £1,336,386. Parliament has been in recess for nearly six months, whereas, had it not been for the attitude adopted by the Prime Minister, it could have continued at work.

Senator Pearce:

– The pressure of business occurred during the time that Parliament was sitting.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– That is not a valid reason, for, as the Minister knows, finance is a question of paramount importance to all Governments. I remind him of the remark of an ex-President of the United States that “finance is government, and government is finance.” The Senate should not be called upon to dispose of this vast appropriation in a few minutes. I realize that the money has been spent, and that the usual procedure is being adopted; but, in my opinion, it is time that we departed from that procedure.

Senator Pearce:

– That cannot be done in existing circumstances.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– It could be done if the Government so desired. I hope that after the transfer of the Seat of Government to Canberra, there will be no repetition of this kind of thing. In this case, however, I suppose we shall have to bow to the inevitable. We cannot now recall the money, ‘and it is therefore of little use for us to question the directions in which it was spent.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Schedule -

Senator NEEDHAM:
asked a few days ago, the Minister then administering the Home and Territories Department (‘Senator Glasgow · Western Australia [2.35]. - I should be glad to know if anything has been done for the men employed at the meteorological station at Willis Island. In reply to a question which I

said that representations would be made to Amalgamated Wireless (Australia) Limited, with a view to improving the conditions of the men. I should be glad to know whether representations have been made and, if so, the nature of the reply received.

Senator PEARCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

– Representations have been made to Amalgamated Wireless (Australia) Limited in the matter, but so far no reply has been received.

Senator REID:
Queeusland

.- I take this opportunity to compliment the Administrator of the Mandated Territory of New Guinea, and also the ex-Minister for Home and Territories (Senator Glasgow), upon the firm stand taken by them in connexion with the so-called massacre of whites in the Territory. On that occasion, the majority of the white population there “lost their heads,” and many were intent on retaliation. There was talk of a wholesale shooting of the black population. I was glad to see that the Administrator refused to countenance any such action, and that afterwards the Minister, when the matter came before him, took the same view. The happenings of that time are now over; but had the white population not been restrained in their desire for retaliation, we might have had a repetition of that which, unfortunately, has taken place only too frequently in connexion with trouble between white and coloured peoples, namely, the innocent suffering for the guilty.

Senator THOMPSON:
Queensland

.- A sum of £750 is provided to meet the defalcation of an official at the Flinders Naval Depot. Can the Minister inform the Senate whether the ordinary precaution of having a fidelity guarantee bond is taken in respect of officers handling public money?

Senator PEARCE:
Vice-President, of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

– It is not the rule in the Commonwealth Public Service to require fidelity guarantee bonds from its officers.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– Can the Minister inform the committee of. the number of assisted migrants that arrived in Australia during the last twelve months, the amount of money expended in assisting them, and whether the Commonwealth has been recouped for the money expended? In particular, I desire to know whether the

Commonwealth pays any proportion of the passage money of migrants to Australia ; or is that a matter for the States ?

Senator PEARCE:
Western AustraliaVicePresident of the Executive Council · NAT

– This bill does not cover any expenditure incurred during the last twelve months. This Parliament has voted money to enable the Commonwealth to pay a proportion of the passage money of those migrants who have been nominated by the States. I am sorry that I am unable to say how much money was expended in. that direction last year; but I did not come supplied with that information, seeing that this bill does not cover that period. I shall, however, endeavour to obtain the information for the honorable senator.

Senator ELLIOTT:
Victoria

, - Will the Minister be good enough to explain the item “Refund of fines - Immigration Restriction Act, £3,422”?

Senator PEARCE:
Western AustraliaVicePresident of the Executive Council · NAT

– Under the Immigration Restriction Act owners of vessels employing coloured crews are liable to a penalty of £100 in respect of each member of the crew who deserts from the ship and remains in Australia. That penalty is invariably enforced, with the result that the shipping company concerned takes active steps to have the deserters arrested. Should it be successful, the fine is refunded, less any expenditure which has been incurred by the department. That accounts for the item to which the honorable senator has referred.

Schedule agreed to. Preamble and title agreed to.

Bill reported without request; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 1028

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1924-25

Bill received from House of Representatives.

Standing and sessional orders suspended.

Bill, on motion (by Senator Pearce) read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator PEARCE:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Western Australia · NAT

– I move.

That the bill be now read a second time.

This bill is complementary to that which we have just passed, and covers Supplementary Estimates for additions, new works, and buildings in respect of the same period.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– It seems strange that we should be asked, in the financial year 1927-28, to validate expenditure incurred in the financial year1924-25. To debate the bill would be a farce. It is simply a validating measure, which we have to accept whether we like it or not.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

page 1028

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Senator PEARCE:
Western AustraliaVice President of the Executive Council · NAT

.. - We have still one or two bills to come from another place.

Senator Needham:

– What are they?

Senator PEARCE:

– One is a bill dealing with Supplementary Estimates and another is the Fresh Fruits Overseas Marketing Bill, together with its complementary measure, the Fresh Fruits Export Charges Bill. There is also the vote of £50,000 to the Government of Victoria. These measures have not yet passed another place. I suggest, therefore, Mr. Deputy President, that you suspend the sitting until they are available.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Plain). - To meet, the convenience of honorable senators I shall suspend the sitting, which will be resumed after the ringing of the bells.

Sitting suspended from 2.58 p.m. to 4.20 p.m.

page 1028

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL 1925-26

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and Sessional Orders suspended, and bill (on motion by Senator Pearce) read a first time.

SecondReading.

Senator PEARCE (Western Australia-

Vice-President of the Executive Council) [4.21]. I move-

That the bill be now read a second time.

This is another measure of a character similar to that just passed, hut for the year 1925-26. The Auditor-General has submitted his report to Parliament for the year 1925-26, and it is now necessary to obtain approval for the supplementary estimates for that year in respect of expenditure made out of the vote “ Advance to the Treasurer.” The vote for the Treasurer’s advance for 1925-26 was £1,500,000, and the expenditure amounted to £511,059. Details of this expenditure are now submitted to honorable senators. The summarized totals are - Departmental expenditure and war services payable from revenue, £481,318; additions, new works and buildings, £29,741; making a total of £511,059. Further details are contained in the Auditor-General’s report for 1925-26, and also in the schedule of supplementary estimates for that year. Copies of these documents have been circulated amongst honorable senators, so that it is unnecessary to refer at length to the expenditure which is now submitted for the approval of the Senate.

Senator PEARCE:
NAT

-If the Public Service Board or the Public Service Arbitrator increased any salaries subsequent to the passing of the ordinary Estimates, obviously those increases would be paid out of the Treasurer’s advance.

Senator Kingsmill:

– I am thinking more especially of the officers of Parliament.

Senator PEARCE:

– Similarly, if. any of those officers had their salaries increased after the ordinary Estimates were passed by Parliament, the increases would be paid out of the Treasurer’s advance, and be provided for in the Supplementary Estimates.

Senator Kingsmill:

– Ordinary increases appear to have been much delayed.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without request or debate.

page 1029

SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL 1925-26

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and Sessional Orders suspended, and bill (on motion by Senator Pearce) read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator PEARCE (Western Australia - Vice-President of the Executive Council [4.26].- I move-

That the bill be now read a second time.

The bill that the Senate has just passed dealt with the ordinary services. Thisis a complementary measure, containing supplementary estimates for additions, new works and buildings, over the same period.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

page 1029

FRESH FRUITS OVERSEAS MARKETING BILL

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and . Sessional Orders suspended.

Bill (on motion by Senator Crawford) read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator CRAWFORD (Queensland -

Honorary Minister) [4.32]. - I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

The object of this bill is to enable the apple and pear growers of Australia to elect a board which will effectively organize the overseas marketing - particularly in the United Kingdom and the continent - of fresh apples and pears, so that the growers themselves may secure the best possible returns for their products. The lines of the bill are familiar to honorable senators. The boards established for the dried fruits, dairy, and canned fruits industries have done valuable work. The good work done by the Dairy Produce Control Board has resulted in securing stable prices for butter and cheese, and has further effected a saving of £60,000 in freight. There are about 12,000 growers of apples and pears in the Commonwealth, and their dependants number, possibly, 50,000. Competition from American and New Zealand growers has increased in recent years. For instance, last year New Zealand sent 655,000 cases of apples to the United Kingdom. Last year Australia produced 7,270,000 bushel cases of apples, of which 2,968,000 cases were exported to the United Kingdom and 230,000 elsewhere. In 1925 the average price of Australian apples sold in England was about 15s. per case, which was satisfactory, but last year, owing to the dislocation occasioned by the strike in England, the price was only about8s. per case, which is about 4s. under the cost of production. Owing to the depredations of the thrips pest, there will be reduced shipments this year, but it is anticipated that higher prices will prevail. An expert control board is in operation in New Zealand, and in its annual report it states that the valuable information already gained should make it possible to eliminate unnecessary costs, and place the industry on a sound payable basis. The bill provides, as in the case of similar acts, for a poll to be taken before the act can come into operation. Another poll may be taken after a further period of three years, or any further period of three years, to decide whether the act shall continue to operate. The board, which will control the marketing of exports, is to consist of seven members, six of whom are to be elected by the growers, whilst one with commercial experience will be nominated to represent the Government. The board will be financed out of the proceeds of a levy not exceeding1d. a case, and a special bill will be introduced for this purpose. The proceeds of the levy will also be available for advertising purposes abroad. Honorable senators realize that the apple-growers’ lot has not been a happy one. The bill will undoubtedly improve their position, as it will enable the producers to set up an efficient organization which it is hoped will place the overseas marketing of apples and pears on a sound basis.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I realize that this measure is on the lines of the Dairy Produce Export Control Act and the Dried Fruits Export Control Act. I have no objecttion to the principle upon which it is based, but there is one phase of this legislation that should not be overlooked. The local consumer may not only be supplied with the poorer grades of apples and pears, the best, as possibly is only right, being exported, but he may also find that because of this control over export the price he pays locally for his apples has been increased.

Senator J B Hayes:

– Would that he a pity? What about the orchardist who is working for nothing half his time?

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I want to give the orchardist the best price he can get.

Senator J B Hayes:

– The honorable senator evidently wants it both ways.

Senator NEEDHAM:

– I wish the honorable senator to realize that I do not want the producer to sell his produce at a starvation price, and in this connexion I am not laying any blame on him. My remarks apply, not to the producer, but to the middleman. Iblame the latter for the high price of fruit for local consumption. At present it is hard to get an apple in Melbourne except at an exorbitant price. I want it to be clearly understood that I am in favour of the principle contained in this bill, but I also wish to mention the danger of the local consumer being charged exorbitant prices for the second quality apples that are not exported. I realize that honorable senators are anxious to catch the express to Sydney, and in the circumstances I do not propose to debate at greater length the point I have raised.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

.- I do not desire to delay the passage of the bill, neither do I rise to oppose the principle embodied in it; but when I heard the Minister say that the proceeds of a certain levy were to be used to advertise Australian apples and pears overseas, I could not help thinking seriously that the best market for the Australiangrown fruit is the Australian market. With all due deference to those engaged in this all-important industry, I venture to say that they would be in a better position if they were properly organized, and a levy was imposed for the purposeof advertising in this country. We know that the best fruits are grown in Australia. If the people of the Commonwealth could be educated to the manifold advantages of fruit as food or medicine, all the fruit grown in Australia would be consumed locally. Mr. Clapp, the Chief Commissioner of Railways in Victoria, has done much to increase the consump- tion of fruit. As a matter of fact within the last few months there has been an apparent shortage of oranges and lemons. Mr. Clapp has succeeded in demonstrating to the people of Melbourne that the juices of fruits are the best to drink, and during the recent hot spell large numbers of men and women could be seen waiting their turn at the kiosk at Flinders-street station to be supplied with the juice of oranges or lemons. The people of Melbourne have been convinced that drinks made of the juices of these fruits are more wholesome than others, winch, while more costly, are not so good for the system. It is said that an apple a day will keep the doctor away. What is to prevent the apple-growers in Australia spending a few thousands of pounds in order to educate the people of Australia to increase their consumption of fruit? How much money is spent on advertising certain nostrums sold here ? Thousands of pounds are spent in advertising chewing-gum. What would the consumption of chewing gum he if it were not for the ‘amount spent on advertising ? How many boxes of pills that are supposed to be a panacea for all ills would be sold if it were not for the large sums spent on publicity work bv those interested in these nostrums? The Minister has stated that many growers have found it unprofitable to send their apples overseas. We have been informed that they received 15s. a case for some of their consignments in 1925. I expect that freight and other charges have to be deducted from that figure.

Senator Crawford:

– That was not” the net price which the growers received.

Senator FINDLEY:

– We know quite well that it was not the net price. If honorable senators take into consideration the charges that had to be incurred in connexion with the! shipment of those apples they will realize that the net price was not very great. During the recent industrial trouble in England, Australian apples were sold for as low as 8s. a case. The growers receive a much better return from the sale of their apples in the Australian market.

Senator Elliott:

– The local market will not absorb the whole of the output.

Senator FINDLEY:

– It would if the fruit were properly advertised and marketed. It would be an easy matter to convince the people of Australia that it would be to the advantage of their health if they ate more fruit and vegetables thar are at present consumed. Scientific and medical men say that a diet of fruit is better than medicine. Our concern is to assist the growers of apples to dispose of their crops.

Senator Crawford:

– Our immediate concern is to pass the bill.

Senator FINDLEY:

– According to a statement that the Minister made, the passage of the bill would place the growers upon a better footing. I am endeavouring to show that the advantage which they would derive would be much more substantial if they utilized to a greater extent the Australian market. There would then be no necessity for a bill of this nature. I am as anxious as anybody to assist the orchardists. My reason for speaking on this matter is to make suggestions whereby the man on the land may be assisted. The best way is for the growers to exhaust the possibilities of the Australian market before exporting any of their product overseas.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Kingsmill:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I shall now put clauses 6 to 11 to the committee.

Senator Givens:

– I rise to order. I have had very little experience in committee work; but the practice now proposed is quite new to me. The clauses of a bill should be submitted separately ; but in this case, sir, you are proposing to put clauses 6 to 11. If this practice is to be persisted in, I shall object, and it will then be some time before the bill passes the committee stage. This measure has been in our hands only a few minutes, and one of such importance should be carefully considered.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Kingsmill:

– If the honorable senator objects to the method which I proposed to adopt, I shall put each clause separately. The question now is: “ That clause 6 be agreed to. “

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 7 to 30 agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 1032

DEFENCE BILL (No. 2)

Bill returned from the House of Representatives without amendment.

page 1032

FRESH FRUITS EXPORT CHARGES BILL

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and sessional orders suspended.

Bill (on motion by Senator Chawford) read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator CRAWFORD:
Honorary Minister · Queensland · NAT

– This bill is complementary to the Fresh Fruits Overseas Marketing Bill, with which the Senate has just dealt. It provides for a maximum export levy of Id. per case on fresh fruits, or such lower rate as is prescribed. Power is also given to exempt apples or pears from the charges. The moneys so collected are to be used for advertising and publicity work, and for the purpose of defraying administrative expenses.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– I realize that this bill is complementary to that with which we have just dealt, and, therefore, I shall not oppose the second reading.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time and passed through all its stages without request or debate.

page 1032

VICTORIAN PARLIAMENT HOUSE MEMORIAL BILL

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Standing and sessional orders suspended.

Bill (on motion by Senator Sir William Glasgow) read a first time.

Second Reading

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

[4.58].- I move-

That the bill be now read a second time.

This bill provides for the appropriation of the sum of £50,000 to mark the Commonwealth Parliament’s appreciation of the generous act of the Victorian Parliament in granting the use of this magnificent building during the first 26 years of the history of the Commonwealth. I feel sure that it will receive the unanimous support of honorable senators.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

– It is appropriate that the last bill with which the Senate will deal during its sittings in Melbourne should be one to appropriate’ a sum of money for the purpose of commemorating the occupation of these magnificent buildings by the Parliament of the Commonwealth. I do not cavil at the amount which it is proposed shall be appropriated for the purpose, for, had this Parliament been required to pay rent for this building for the 26 years that it has met here, a much- greater sum than £50,000 would have been expended, by way of rental. It is only right that a memorial should be erected. I presume that the form which it will take will be determined by the Victorian Government; but this will be an expression of our appreciation of the privilege of occupying this building for so many years. I support the bill.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

– The thanks of the Parliament are duo to the Victorian Parliament, Government, and people for having allowed, us to occupy this magnificent edifice for 26 years. It is one of the finest buildings in the southern hemisphere. If we had been called upon to pay rent for it I feel sure that we should have been obliged to pay more each year than the total amount provided for in this measure. I am certain, also, that Parliament would have approved of a very much larger vote. I object to the word “ memorial “ in the title of the bill, because I fear that it might give rise to some embarrassment later when the memorial is erected. I understand that the idea most favoured by members pf the Victorian Parliament and Government is to spend this money on the erection of a kitchen. All I can say on that point is that it is not desirable that the addition of a kitchen to these premises should be regarded as a fitting memorial of our occupation of it. I suggest, therefore, that, whilst we freely grant the money, we might very well delete the word “ memorial “ from the title of the bill.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clause 1 -

This act may be cited as the Victorian Parliament House Memorial Act 1927.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

– I move -

That the word “Memorial” be left out.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Kingsmill:

– Does the honorable senator propose to insert other words in lieu thereof?

Senator GIVENS:

– No.

Senator PAYNE:
Tasmania

.- Though approving of the attitude adopted by our ex-President, Senator Givens, I do not think he is justified in moving the amendment. I read in the Melbourne press to-day a statement to the effect that the money to bevoted would be spent in a certain way; but I do not think that that should influence this Parliament. All we are concerned about now is the voting of £50,000 to the Victorian Parliament and Government.

Senator Givens:

– I am not objecting to the payment of the money.

Senator PAYNE:

– The money to be voted to the Victorian Government is to be spent on a suitable memorial in recognition of our gratitude to the people of Victoria for the use of this building for so many years. We should not take notice of statements that appear in the press as to the manner in which the money may be expended. That is a matter entirely for the Victorian Government.

Senator Givens:

– I do not propose to interfere with the expenditure of the money. I am content to leave that entirely in the hands of the State Government, and I would willingly vote a larger sum.

Senator PAYNE:

– I understood that the honorable senator referred to a statement which appeared in the Melbourne press, that it was proposed to utilize the vote for the erection of a kitchen.

Senator Givens:

– The Victorian Government may do that if it wishes. My only objection is to a kitchen being regarded as a memorial of our occupation of these premises.

Senator PAYNE:

– The clause might very well stand.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

.- I wish to correct a misapprehension in the mind of Senator Payne. I have said definitely that I have no objection to Parliament voting the sum provided in the bill. Indeed, I would willingly vote a very much larger amount. Nor do 1 object to the Victorian Government spending the money in any way it pleases.

Senator Ogden:

– The honorable senator wishes the Victorian Government to be free and unfettered in that matter.

Senator GIVENS:

– Yes. My only objection is to the word “ memorial “ appearing in the title of the bill. If the money is to be spent as has been suggested, I should not like to think that a kitchen would be regarded as a memorial of our occupation of the building.

Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW:
Minister for Defence · Queensland · NAT

[5.7]. - I hope the committee will not agree to the amendment. The vote is intended as an expression of our gratitude to the Parliament and people of Victoria for the use of this building. The particular form of the memorial may very well be left to the Victorian Government.

Senator REID:
QUEENSLAND · NAT

.- I cannot support the amendment. I was a member of a committee, representative of all parties and including the President and the Speaker, appointed for the purpose of conferring with representatives of the Victorian Parliament as to the form of the proposed memorial. Sir Bertram Mackennal was consulted about the project. The Victorian representatives submitted a number of proposals of a monumental character, any of which it was thought would be a fitting memorial. The one most favoured was not, as has been stated, a kitchen. It will, I believe, be a suitable memorial of our occupancy of this building for so many years, and if the Anzac Square proposal for Melbourne is adopted, will also be in harmony with the general scheme, and add to its beauty. The carrying of Senator Givens’s amendment will not in any way interfere with the expenditure of the money. I hope that he will not press it to a division.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

Senator Reid still seems to be under a misapprehension, and I wish to put him right. I am not objecting to the manner in which the money may be spent. The Victorian Government may spend it as it pleases. I should like to know, however,, what the House Committee of this Par- l iament will have to do with the expendi ture of the proposed vote after we vacate t his building. All we are concerned about is the voting of the sum provided in the bill. The Victorian Parliament will spend it as it thinks best. That is as it should be. Our House Committee has asolutely nothing whatever to do with t he form of the memorial. I repeat that I do not object to the voting of the money; but I do object to the word “ memorial “ since we should have no voice in the expenditure of the money.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.

Preamble and title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 1034

LEAVE OF ABSENCE TO HONORABLE SENATORS

Senator -Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW Queensland - Minister for Defence) 5.12]. - I move -

That leave of absence be granted to every member of the Senate from the determination of the sitting this day to the day on which the Senate next meets.

The motion is necessary to enable hon- orable senators to have leave of absence until the Parliament meets at Canberra. Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 1034

NEXT MEETING OF SENATE

Sittings at Canberra.

Motion (by Senator Sir William Glasgow) agreed to -

That the next sitting of the Senate take place in the building known as Parliament House at Canberra, at the Seat of Government; that the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until such time on Monday, 9th May, 1927, as is fixed by the President, which time shall be notified by the President to each senator by telegram or letter.

page 1034

ADJOURNMENT

Removal of the Parliament to the Seat op Government at Canberra. Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW (Queensland - Minister for Defence) [5.14]. - I move -

That the Senate do now adjourn.

I regret very much that the VicePresident of the Executive Council (Senator Pearce)was obliged to leave the Senate before the adjournment, to catch a train which will convey him to Sydney in time to be present at the reception to their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of York. His presence here on the present occasion would have been most fitting, inasmuch as he is an original member of the Senate, and the only one of such memberswhonow occupies a seat in this chamber. With those honorable senators who addressed themselves to a motion that the Senate passed recently, I agree thatweowe to the Parliament and the people of Victoria a deep debt of gratitude for having given the Commonwealth Parliament the use of this beautiful building from the inception of federation. I am sure that honorable senators have mixed feelings at this particular time. They can look backwith a considerable amount of pleasure to the sittings that have been held in this chamber, and the extraordinarily good work that has’ been done here for the Commonwealth. I trust that . in our new home at Canberra there will be a continuance of the same good fellowship that has characterized the relations of honorable senators during the time that I have been a member of the Senate. I sincerely hope that honorable senators will long be spared to represent their respective States, and that they will live to see Canberra become a city worthy of this great Commonwealth, of which we are all so justly proud.

Senator NEEDHAM:
Western Australia

.- Thiswill be the last motion of its kind to be submitted by the Government in this chamber.I joinwith the Minister for Defence (Senator Glasgow) in expressing keen gratitude to the Parliament, the Government, and the people of Victoria for their hospitality during our occupancy of this building of historic associations. We shall carry with us memories that will last for all time. Theworkwhich has been accomplished in this building by not only the Commonwealth Parliament, but also the Parliament of Victoria before the establishment of federation, must have been an example and an inspiration to the people of the Old World. Itwas in this building that the Commonwealth launched out in legislation of a very advanced nature; so advanced, in fact, that the eyes of the people inother parts of the world have been almost continuously upon us. 1 venture to think that our example in that direction has been followed by other countries. I trust that when we legislate at the Seat of Government at Canberra it will be tho objective of Parliament, irrespective of the Govern ment that may be in charge of the destinies of the nation, to make its legislation not only progressive, but humane. I have no doubt that that will he done, and that in their new environment honorable senators will be inspired by sentiments as lofty as those which have guided their actions here. I regret having to leave this building, which for me has many pleasant memories; but at the same time, I shall bc glad to be one of the first to occupy the new home of the Commonwealth Parliament at Canberra. I join with the Minister in expressing good-will towards our hosts, and I hope that prosperity will attend them in the future.

Tha DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Plain). - I regret exceedingly that the President is not with us to-day, but I am glad to be able to tell honorable senators that his health is improving, and that he hopes to be back with .us at an early date. Every one will be pleased to meet him again, more particularly at :the great gathering at Canberra on the 9th of May. Had he been here to-day, I am sure he would have expressed the. gratitude of tho Senate to the Victorian Parliament for the free use of this magnificent building for the many years we have been permitted to occupy it. I trust that the next 25 years will bring to the members of the State Parliament times as happy as those enjoyed by Federal members hero for the last quarter of a century. As a former member of the State legislature, I know many of the members of that Parliament, and I am quite sure that they will grace these halls which we with full appreciation of the service they have Tendered to us, now pass over to them, if not in a better condition, at least in a state of preservation as good as that in which we found them when .they were entrusted to our care.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

The Senate adjourned at 5.22 p.m. till such time on Monday, 9th of May, 1927, as is fixed by the President, and notified by him to each senator by telegram or letter.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 24 March 1927, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1927/19270324_senate_10_115/>.