Senate
30 July 1919

7^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

H.M.A.S. AUSTRALIA
QUESTION
- BLOW-FLY PEST
QUESTION
- WENTWORTH PARK WOOL STORES
QUESTION
- SEAMEN’S. STRIKE
PAPERS
DEFENCE FORCE
QUESTION
- MELBOURNE METROPOLITAN GAS COMPANY
QUESTION
- PRISONERS
MILITARY STORES
- Distribution of Surplus
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE
QUESTION
- MILITARY TRAINEES
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH AUDIT OFFICE INSPECTOR, PERTH
TRADE MARKS BILL
QUESTION
- STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
LIGHTHOUSES BILL
QUESTION
- MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
SPECIAL- ADJOURNMENT
ADJOURNMENT
- Dear Sir,

ThePresident (Senator the Hon. T. Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 11024

H.M.A.S. AUSTRALIA

SentencesforBreachofDiscipline.

SenatorFOLL. - Have the Government yet received any reply to the representations made to the Imperial Government in connexion with the sentences which were passed upon certain sailors of H.M.A.S. Australia?

Senator MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– No reply has yet been received from the Imperial authorities. As honorable senators are probably aware, a second communication was forwarded to them bythe Government.

page 11024

QUESTION

BLOW-FLY PEST

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND

– Has the Leader of the Government in. the Senate seen a statement to the effect that, since leaving Australia, Professor Lefroy has discovered a means of exterminating the blow-fly pest? Is it the intention of the Government to secure this gentleman’s services in connexion with the Bureau of Science and; Industry ?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– I have seen the paragraph referred to, but Ican only say at present that, beyond that newspaper intimation, the Government knows nothing of the matter. It will be submitted for the consideration of the Bureau of Science and Industry.

page 11024

QUESTION

WENTWORTH PARK WOOL STORES

Deposit of Rubbish

SenatorMcDOUGALL. - I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate if he has any reply to the question I put some time ago on the subject of the deposit of rubbish alongside the wool stores at Wentworth Park?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– I have been supplied by the Central Wool Committee with the following answer to the question submitted by Senator McDougall on the 17th of this month : -

Recently permission was given by the New South Wales State Wool Committee to the contractors who are making excavations for a building on a site close to Wentworth Park to deposit portion of the soil removed within the boundary fence of the Wentworth Park sheds. The soil, which is’ suitable for top-dressing, and similar to that spread in another part of the parkusedas a children’s playground, was to be utilized for the purpose of filling in holes or depressions in the ground in close proximity to the sheds.

When the requirements of the New South Wales State Wool Committee were satisfied, the carter engaged deposited the earth immediately outside portion of the fence surrounding the sheds, for which the State Wool Committee was not responsible.

The cartage contractor is now engaged in removing this soil, which is probably the rubbish referred to by Senator McDougall.

page 11024

QUESTION

SEAMEN’S. STRIKE

Senator MULCAHY:
TASMANIA · PROT; NAT from 1919

– I ask the Leader of the Senate if he is prepared to-day to make a statement as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the present strike, and, if not to-day, when we may expect such a statement?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– I am not in a position to-day to make a statement, for the reason that, so far as we are informed, the various branches of the Seamen’s Union have not yet finalized their action. ‘ The Government deem it advisable to wait until that has been done before they make any further pronouncement on the subject.

page 11025

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Arbitration (Public Service) Act 1911. - Orders of the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration, and other documents, in connexion with further variations of awards in the following cases: -

Australian Letter Carriers’ Association. (Dated 10th June, 1919.)

Federated Public Service Assistants’ Association of Australia. (Dated 25th June, 1919.)

General Division Officers Union of the Trade and Customs Departmen of Aus tralia. (Dated 6th June, 1919.)

Audit Act 1901-1917. - Transfers of amounts approved by the Governor-General in Council - Financial year1918-19 - Dated 16th July,1919 (two). “Defence Act 1903-1918. - Regulations amended. Statutory Rules 1919, Nos. 155, 156, 157, 158, 168.

Excise Act 1901-1918. - Regulations amended. -Statutory Rules 1919, No. 186.

League of. Nations. - Draft Agreement presented to the Plenary Inter-Allied Conference of 14th February, 1919. (Paper presented to British Parliament.)

Norfolk Island. - Ordinances of 1919.

No. 1. - Appeal.

No. 2.- Affidavits.

Northern Territory Acceptance Act and Northern Territory Crown Lands Act 1890 (South Australia). - Plan of Reserve for Water Conservation and Police Purposes at Anthony’s Lagoon, Northern Territory.

Northern Territory - Ordinance No. 9 of 1919. Justices’ Appeal.

Postmaster-General’s Department. - Eighth Annual Report, 1917-1918.

Public Service Act 1902-1918.-

Promotion of G, Sinden, PostmasterGeneral’s Department.

Regulations amended. -Statutory Rules 1919, No. 164.

Return to Order of the Senate of 26th June, 1919-

Rent paid by Commonwealth Departments in Melbourne.

War Precautions Act 1914-1918. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1919, Nos. 166, 167, 176.

War Service Homes Act 1918. - Agreement between War Service Homes Commissioner and Commonwealth Bank of Australia relating to purchase of land, erection of dwelling-houses, &c.

Wool: Report relating to the activities of the Central Wool Committee for the wool season 1918-1919, together with annexes thereto.

page 11025

DEFENCE FORCE

Delay in Settlement of Claims.

Senator -NEEDHAM (for Senator Lt.Colonel O’Loghlin) asked the Acting Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Has the attention of the Minister been called to the statement made at the Congress of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers’ League in Adelaide on 16th July, 1919, that the widows and dependants of deceased soldiers had been unable to obtain a settlement of their estates for several months, and will he see that these settlements are expedited?

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

– In the majority of cases the military estates of deceased soldiers have been adjusted. . Everything possible is being done, and will be done, to expedite the settlement of the remainder.

page 11025

QUESTION

MELBOURNE METROPOLITAN GAS COMPANY

Increase in Price of Gas.

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Has his attention been called to a statement appearing in the press that it is the intention of the Metropolitan Gas Company to increase the price of gas to the consumer by 1s. 6d. per 1,000 cubic feet consequent on the present industrial dispute?
Will the Government take action to compel this company to proceed to arbitration, or take any other steps that will prevent such an increase on the present price charged to consumers of gas?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– The price of gas is regulated by State enactment, and the matter has been brought under the notice of the State Government.

page 11025

QUESTION

PRISONERS

Remissions of Sentences and Fines : War Precautions Act

Senator NEEDHAM:
for Senator Grant

asked the Acting Minister for Defence, upon notice -

How many members of the Australian Imperial Force are at present detained in custody in Australia?
How many civilians are at present in gaol in Australia for infringing the provisions of the War Precautions Act or regulations thereunder ?

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

– The answers are -

There are forty-three cases of soldiers serving sentences in Australia awarded by court martial.
This question has been referred to the AttorneyGeneral’s Department for answer.

Senator FOLL:

asked the Acting Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it the intention of the Government, in connexion with the Peace Celebrations, to remit all fines and sentences incurred by members of the Australian Imperial Forces either overseasor in Australia?

Senator RUSSELL:

– No ; but the question of the remission of portion of the sentences of penal servitude, imprisonment, and detention awarded by courts martial is now under consideration.

page 11026

MILITARY STORES

Distribution of Surplus

Senator O’KEEFE:
TASMANIA

asked the Acting

Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Have blankets, flannels, or other goods held by the Defence Department been, or are they going to be, made available at cost price to organizationswho wish to purchase them for distribution in urgent cases?

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

– A quantity of flannel and blankets has already been made available for free distribution in certain cases of distress. Existing instructions provide that blankets and other woollen goods no longer suitable for the use of troops may be made available free of charge to charitable organizations, and blankets and other articles in excess of military requirements may be made available at cheap rates to hospitals, charitable organizations, and influenza relief committees ; other applications ‘are dealtwith on their merits.

page 11026

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Preference to Returned Soldiers

Senator BARNES:
VICTORIA

asked the Acting Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it the policy of theDepartment to discharge from his employment the father of a dead soldier for the purpose of replacing himthe father - by a soldier or soldier’s wife?

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

– The policy is to . give first preference to returned soldiers. Experience has, however, shown that this policy, where it involves displacing exist’ ing employees, may be the means of inflicting great and unmerited hardship. The Government are now considering the possibility of meeting such cases without violating their general policy.

page 11026

QUESTION

MILITARY TRAINEES

Forfeiture of Cigarettes

Senator McDOUGALL:
NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Acting Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is the Minister aware whether, military trainees at Grafton have had to hand over all cigarettes, &c, that may have been in their possession whilst on parade, also that their pockets have been searched?
Will the Minister give instructions that- such a practice, if in vogue, is to be discontinued ?

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

– The answers are -

At a Senior Cadet parade held at Grafton, on 4th April last, the Senior Cadetswere ordered to hand over cigarettes in their possession while on parade. Pockets . were notsearched, but the Cadets were ordered to turn them out. The cigarettes wore destroyed by lire in the presence of the Cadets.
In accordance with Australian Military Regulation 1238, it is an offence for Senior Cadets to havein their possession any intoxicating liquor, cigarettes, or material for making cigarettes when in uniform on duty or on parade, and the action taken was in accordance with this regulation.

page 11026

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH AUDIT OFFICE INSPECTOR, PERTH

Senator NEEDHAM:

asked the Minister representing thePrime Minister, upon notice -

Will the Minister, give the name of the- officer nominated by the Commonwealth Public Service inspector, Western Australia, for appointment tothe position . of inspector, 3rd class, Commonwealth Audit Office, Perth?
Will the Minister ask the GovernorGeneral to hold the appointment in abeyance, and permit any appeals lodged under section 50 of the Act against the Common wealth Publice Service inspector’s nominee to be dealt with before finalizing the matter?

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

– It is not considered desirable to’ disclose the nature of reports of Public Service inspectors in such matters.

page 11026

TRADE MARKS BILL

Bill read a third time. .

page 11027

QUESTION

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE

In Committee (Consideration of report presented toSenate on 16th. July, 1919, vide page 10697):

Senator GIVENS (Queensland) (3.20].- It will be within the recollection of honorable senators that a short time ago Senator Pratten raised the question, which is one of importance, -whether the rights of senators have not been imperilled, by a departure, from our usual practice which was made whilst the war was in progress. As honorable senators are aware, while the war continued we departed from the custom which had been previously observed of laving at least one session of Parliament during each year, the result being that we had only one session during the life of each Parliament. That is to say, there was no prorogation at the end of each year. Instead, we merely adjourned until a date to be fixed. The consequence was that certain of our Standing Orders prohibited honorable senators from exercising their ordinary rights in regard to questions which had been ‘dealt with by “the Senate during any debate of the previous year. Thus an honorable senator might be required to wait for three years before he could refer to any matter which had been dealt with by the Senate. “When this question was referred to the Standing Orders Committee it was fully considered by the members of that body, and they have decided to establish, as nearly . as practicable, the position which would have existed if a session of Parliament had been held during each year. The proposed standing order will permit of any question - no matter how long . a ‘session may last - which has been dealt with six months previously, being revived, so long as the sessionhas lasted for a little more than a calendar year. The reason why a. period of fifteen months has been inserted . in the proposed new standing order is that we have already had experience of a session of that duration, and if a Tariff measure be introduced during the present session, it is quite possible that we may have a repetition of that experience.

Senator GIVENS:
QUEENSLAND

– That is not a matter for me to deal with. Honorable senators may rest assured that the new proposal fully safeguards their rights without permitting any undue licence. Therefore, I move -

That the following new standing order be adopted’: - 416a. Where a session of Parliament has continued for more than fifteen months, standing orders Nos. 133, 413, 414, and 416 shall not apply to any subject or matter thathas transpired or been dealt withmore than six months previously. ‘

Senator PRATTEN:
New South Wales

– As Idirected attention to this matter some little time ago, I wish to say thatthe proposal which has now been submitted, and which represents the outcome of the consideration given to this question by the Standing Orders Committee, meets the case which I submitted to the Seriate. It safeguards the rights and privileges of honorable senators, and I very heartily support, its adoption. This supplementary standing order is designed to meet the exceptional circumstances which have arisen since the commencement of the war.

Senator DE LARGIE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I wish to draw attention to the necessity for printing a new edition of our Standing Orders, in order that it may be placed in the hands of honorable senators. Our present copies are things of rags and tatters. When one attempts to handle them the leaves fly all over the Chamber. The attention of the press should be especially directed to this matter with a view to showing how we economize in paper and printing. It should be a standing proof to the press that this is a very economical Parliament.

Question resolved in the affirmative.. .

Resolution reported.

page 11027

LIGHTHOUSES BILL

In Committee (Consideration resumed from 17th July, vide page 10810).

Clause 2 -

After section nineteen of the Principal Act the following sections are inserted : - “ 19a. Any person who, or the master, owner, agents, and charterers of any ship which damages or destroys any lighthouse or marine mark shall be liable to pay the Commonwealth the cost of repairing, re- placing, or reinstating the lighthouse or marine mark. .

Upon which SenatorFairbairn had moved by way of amendment -

That all the words after “ who”, first occurring, line 3, down to and including the word “ which”, line 5, be left out.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Senator RUSSELL:
Acting Minister of Defence and Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

– When this measure was under consideration a fortnight ago, some little doubt was expressed as to the wisdom of placing the whole of the liability, for any damage done to our lighthouses or marine marks upon the shoulders either of the ship-owner, charterer, or agent of a vessel. It was thought that the clause was too rigid, inthat it assumed guilt on the part of one of these individuals, even in the’ event of a vessel being blown upon a lighthouse or marine mark by a storm. To meet the wishes which were then expressed by honorable senators, I have decided to strike out proposed new section 19a and to substitute for it a provision which will spare any of the individuals mentioned where he does not contribute by neglect to the destruction of a lighthouse or marine mark. The new provision effectually provides for this.

Senator Senior:

– Will the amendment leave paragraph 19b operative?

Senator RUSSELL:

– Yes. If a man through neglect or wickedness destroys a lighthouse or marine mark he will be liable to the Commonwealth for the damage which he does. I therefore move-

That proposed new section 19a be left out, and that’ the following provision be inserted in lieu thereof : - “ 19a. If any lighthouse or marine mark is damaged or destroyed by any person or ship the person, or master, owner, agent, or . character of the ship, as the case may be, shall be liable to pay to the Commonwealth the cost of repairing or replacing the lighthouse or marine mark unless he proves that the damage or destruction of the lighthouse or marine mark was not’ caused through wilfulness, negligence, misconduct, or want of skill.”

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Title, agreed to.

Bill reported with an amendment.

page 11028

QUESTION

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Senator Reid:

– You are speaking, I presume, of State and Federal taxation ?

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

-There is not the slightest doubt that it is, and I can answer the honorable senator’s question without notice.

The Federal and State Governments draw taxation from the same well, and I come now to consider the payments which have been made by the State Governments. For general hospitals the States contributed £666,589 for the accommodation of 476,279 people treated in those hospitals. That was in’ 1916, the latest year for which I could obtain the figures dealing with this matter. To benevolent institutions the States contributed £256,616 for sheltering 7,258 people. The amount of State relief for neglected children was £535,419 for the care of, I was surprised to see, 32,381 neglected children in the Commonwealth.

For hospitals for the insane the States contributed £688,000 to institutions dealing with 17,000 insane people of our population. For the protection of aboriginals the States contributed £97,000 in respect of 6,777 aboriginals. These. figures make a total of £2,243,624 paid in respect of 539,698 people. The total of the figures for both Commonwealth and States amounts to no less than £12,160,496, and this amount is paid in respect of 987,826 persons; so that nearly one in every five of the population is in receipt of some contribution from the Governments of the States or the Commonwealth.

We have to pay some £15,000,000’ a year in the shape of interest on war loans. It is obvious from thesefigures that we need to be very careful how we spend our money, but I very much regret to say that I seenoattempt on the part of the Government to really reduce public expenditure. They seem to go on increasing the staffs of public: departments and establishing duplicatedepartments, and in spending money as if the public purse had no bottom to it. I was very much surprised the other day to find that there has been an increase of 396 officers in the Public Service. I believe that such an increase is notjustified. We should for some time to come keep the Public Serviceat least at no more than its present strength. Some honorable senators may say that it would be cruel to reduceourdepartmental staffs, but the fact is that if we do not reduce them now, when bad times come upon us, as assuredly they will before long, we may suddenly have to turn people out of the Government Departments at a time when it will be difficult for them to obtain employment outside, and in that way we should be doing them a gross injustice.

There is one way in which I think a great saving in public expenditure might be made, and that is by the amalgamation of State and Commonwealth Departments. There are several sets of Departments which might well be amalgamated. Thefirst I shall mention are the Electoral Departments. There have been several Premiers’ Conferences at which this matter has been discussed. At the Premiers’

Conference held in Melbourne in March, 1914, it was resolved -

That the proposals of the Commonwealth Government relating to electoral reform be referred to the Governments of the States for early consideration and decision.

That was a,bout five and a half years ago.

Senator Russell:

– It is only .fair to say that our Bill has been prepared, and is ready for that co-operation.

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– I do not care who is at fault, I wish to see the amalgamation take place.. At the Premiers’ Conference he.ld in Sydney in May, 1915, it was resolved -

That steps be taken to secure electoral roll uniformity between the Commonwealth and the States.

At another Premiers’ Conference, held in Adelaide in 1916, it was resolved -

That the electoral officers having recommended that it was practicable and advisable to achieve uniformity in regard to State and Commonwealth electoral rolls, the respective States be invited to take the necessary steps to give effect to the recommendation.

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– That would be a mere nothing, as the Commonwealth expenditure was nearly three times that of the States. The Electoral Department is one in which. a very considerable saving might be made by amalgamation.

I come now to consider the amalgamation of the taxing Departments of the Commonwealth and the States, which has been promised year in and. year out for a long while. “We have had various State Conferences dealing with this matter. At the Conference held at Adelaide in May, 1916, it was resolved -

That the Commonwealth Government and the Governments of the several States shall direct their leading taxation officers to meet at an early date to prepare a uniform scheme for income tax (rates excepted), land tax (rates excepted), probate duties (rates excepted). The Conference re-affirms the desirability of uniform valuations for Commonwealth and State purposes being adopted as early as practicable, and that the necessary legislation and administrative steps in that direction be taken by the States.

That resolution was arrived at more than two years ago, but, apparently, we are no nearer an amalgamation of the Commonwealth and State Taxation Departments. This’ is a matter which requires the immediate attention of the Government, who should see whether this amalgamation may not shortly be brought about. It would not only do away with an enormous amount of expense, but it would obviate a tremendous irritation of the taxpayers, who have now to send in two schedules in respect of each tax imposed, and honorable senators know the great difficulty with which many are faced in making up those schedules.

I have taken out some figures to show what might be saved in this direction. I find that the expense of collection in Victoria, in 1917-18, of income tax, land tax, and probate duties, amounted to £40,445.

Senator Russell:

– All of which is a duplication of Federal work.

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– We will never get it for less than that in Australia. In the old days, when the whole country was under meat and wool, everything was cheaper, and the position was quite different.

– From the rabbiters, of course; and I hope they would make a big row, too.

We are all agreed, I think, that the primary producer should have enough to enable him to live decently. He has hardly had enough in the past. Certainly, he has not been on a par with’ the man living in the towns. A great deal of the best country is under the plough now, and in Victoria there is not one single man who owns 1,000 head of cattle, so the price of hides is not a squatters’ question by any means. It concerns the small farmer, and if we are going to keep men on the land we shall certainly have to pay them higher prices than in the past. Coal, which is essential for all industrial enterprises, is, I understand, 17s. a ton at the pit’s mouth, Newcastle; but when I looked at my bill the other day I found that I was charged £2 3s. per ton delivered for good Jumbunna coal, though I do not think the coal merchants are malting a great deal of money. The same, I believe, can be said of the butchers; and I have been told that many grocers have gone out of business. There is a big margin between the ‘ prices obtained by the primary producers and the prices paid by the consumers. If any honorable senator looks in Tuesday night’s Herald, he will find quotations for mutton ‘down to about 5d. on the hoof ;. and yet, -when, supplied to the householder, it is from.lOd. to la. The Government ought to appoint a Commission to make a thorough examination of the whole problem, which is causing. more unrest than any other question to-day. Everybody is feeling the pinch. My sympathies go out most to those people, such as bank clerks and others with families, drawing a. salary of about £450 a year. They can see no prospect of relief by direct action, and they are the men who feel the pinch most. The cost of distribution at present is enormous.

Senator de Largie:

– There are too many distributers and not enough producers.

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– A working man told me the other day. that in a small street in which he lives, in Malvern, there are no fewer than nine different milk-cart deliveries, while only one boy distributes the Argus, the Age, and the Herald. I said to him, of course, that there was only one quality of the Argus, only one quality of the Age, and but one quality of the Herald, while there were different qualities in milk and meat supplies. I think that if our tradespeople looked into .this matter it is possible that, by some . method of co-operation, they could bring down the cost of distribution to the consumers. In the old days:, whenevery industry was carried on by the cottage system, the working people were contented. When the day of the factory arrived, because of the difficulty of providing for an immense multitude of people tinder conditions of modern civilization, the factory hand, was employed under conditions that were not hygienic, and feeling himself to be merely a cog in machinery, he naturally became discontented. We desire that the working people should again, be made contented. I was very much disappointed that the offer of Mr. Lawson, the Premier of Victoria, for a round table conference, at which matters might be talked, over, was not accepted. An opportunity should be given, to see where we are drifting, and how the conditions of the life of the people might be made more bearable. I am cer.tain that 99 pel’ cent, of employers think and feel as I do on these matters, and are prepared to- do their very best to lighten the load of the working people, and make their lives better worth living.

I have taken up a good deal of the time of the Senate, but I express the hope that Ministers will not treat what I have said in a perfunctory way, because I have given the matters with which I have dealt some study. T hope at least that the Government will do something to bring about the amalgamation of certain Departments of the Public Service, and that they will not create new Departments.

Senator Russell:

– I have used up all my paper in noting the honorable senator’s suggestions.

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– I am glad that the Minister has taken voluminous notes of what I have had to say. He will do me the credit of having studied these matters, and I trust that the Government will make a determined effort to secure economy of administration with efficiency, and will do something to put an end to profiteering.

Senator MULCAHY:
Tasmania

– I feel that, in speaking to the motion, I shall be, to , some extent, flogging a dead horse. Five weeks ago to-day a very important and interesting statement was made in -this Chamber in order to publish to Australia generally the policy of the Government, and their intentions in regard, to most important legislation during the present session. That statement has naturally been overshadowed by occurrences which have since taken place, and which have grown more serious every day. It is doubtful whether the general public, in the circumstances, remember many of the matters which it was promised would be put before this Parliament for beneficial enactment during the present session. I am doubtful whether’ anything which one may say now on the Ministerial statement will have very much interest either for honorable senators or for their constituents, if the latter should ever learn what is said here, for. I may say confidentially that not many people are addicted to the reading of Hansard. I aim afraid that those who do read it do so only for the purpose of discovering stumbling blocks with which to embarrass members of this Parliament at’ some future date.

After an absence of nine years from this distinguished Chamber, I might be forgiven some retrospection, and some anxiety to show that I have not failed to keep myself in touch with public occurrences during that time, but I promise honorable senators that I do not intend to inflict upon them -an accumulation of experiences extending over nine years. 1 have to thank many honorable senators, some old friends, and you, Mr. President, amongst them., for the welcome extended to me upon returning to this Chamber. I congratulate you, sir, upon the. position which you occupy so worthily to-day. Naturally, after such an absence one misses the faces of old friends. Some have gone the way of all flesh, and others have gone the way of most politicians.

With these preliminary remarks, I wish now to say a word or two> upon some important matters referred to in the Ministerial statement. One which strikes me as of first importance is referred to in the earlier part of the statement, the reference to which was probably prepared by the Minister for Repatriation. I find, the statement made -

With no lessons to be drawn from experience either here or abroad, a Department of Repatriation has been established.

I wish to say with regard to the Minister who has assumed one of the most responsible and difficult positions to be found in Australia to-day that, though not destitute of ambition, I would not for ten times the salary exchange my position as a private senator for that held by the Minister for Repatriation. If there is one thing of greater importance than another at this time, it is the administration of the Department which he has undertaken. The Government are quite right in directing attention to the fact that he has taken charge of a Department in which he has virtually to create methods and ideals. My sympathy goes out to him, and to other members of the Government, who, without previous training, have had to discharge the very serious and important duties inseparable from Commonwealth administration in connexion with, the war during the last five years. We are all, I suppose, most prone to criticise, and find fault, but the work which the Minister “for Repatriation must face in- connexion with the serious and difficult task before him should bespeak for him every sympathy.

One may ask, “ What is the best policy to adopt with regard to our returned soldiers?” The question is a most difficult one to answer. Our soldiers have done their duty nobly, and have made a name in history for Australia which it will never lose. They have come back to us covered with glory; but many, unfortunately, will never be the men they were before they went to the Front, and, unfortunately, many of those who went to the Front will never return. The first thing of which our returned soldiers should be seised - and. the man is an enemy to Australia who would instill any other idea into their minds - is that the public of Australia, irrespective of political or religious creeds, have the most kindly feeling towards them, and the most sincere intention to do what is right by them. It is very regrettable that, from time to time, one should see evidence of a deliberate intention to instill the cursed spirit of discontent, which is the ruin of Australia, into the minds of our returned soldiers. That is a feeling which the Minister for Repatriation will find it very difficult to combat. In the circumstances, . I am not surprised to learn that he is not in the best of health, because of the work which he has been called upon to do.

The State Governments are, to the best of their ability, assisting in- the work of repatriation, and I am proud to be able to say, from actual experience, that the State of Tasmania, in proportion to its size, has accomplished more practical good in the matter of the settlement of returned soldiers than has any other State of the Commonwealth. I am also proud to say, for the glory of that small State, that, not merely proportionately, but actually, the largest number of Victoria Crosses won by our soldiers in the

– A strong Government such as the present one, because of the number of their supporters, must have a greater degree of responsibility cast upon them than a weak Government. I have felt this ever since I re-entered the Senate. What ought to be- done is this. We should first decide the principle of election that we intend to adopt, and then provide efficient machinery to give effect to it.1 Under the present system of electing members . for- the Senate - a -system which is supposed to be a democratic one - a majority of the electors may return not merely a. majority of the senators, but the’ whole of them, provided that the block vote on a particular side is sufficiently strong. That result is not always accomplished, for at the Senate elections in 1914, on the occasion of a double dissolution, the smaller proportion of the. electors secured the return of the greater number of senators.

Senator McDougall:

– That is not correct.

Senator MULCAHY:

– I am speaking of the elections in Tasmania in 1914.

Senator McDougall:

– I thought the honorable senator was speaking of Australia.

Senator MULCAHY:

Senator MULCAHY:

– Rentals never yet prevented successful competition. I have seen a sac suit quoted at £10 10s. at a shop in Bourke-street which was certainly not a first-class establishment. That fact suggests to me that there is a tendency to exact higher prices than are justifiable. But when one goes from shop to shop, and finds that certain classes of goods - for example,” cotton goods - are invariably high in price, and learns that in some cases calicoes are costing three or four times as much as they did fifteen or twenty years ago’, he begins to seek for some other reason for high prices than that- of excessive profits. In a great many cases’, the cost of the material has gone up, and to make a living a tradesman must sell at a profit. If he cannot buy at a price low enough to enable him to do this, he must get home on the consumer in some other “way.

– We are trying to do that. Though it may not be popular to say it, I think we are approaching the time when we shall not be able to exempt any person in Australia from some kind of taxation. If we demand our rights as citizens, we must assume our responsibilities as such.

Our fine, stalwart men have coane home again. If they protected the wealth of the landholder and the capitalist, they also preserved the rights and liberties of all citizens. This has been done at a cost of over £300,000,000, and every one in Australia must now be called upon to bear his fair share of the burden. If this is .done, no one will have the right to complain if the man at the top is .paying, even more ‘than his fair share, which he will do, under a proper system of graduated taxation .

Senator FOLL:
Queensland

.- Taking advantage of the debate on the Ministerial statement, I wish to discuss a number of matters referred to in that document, and express my regret- that some items to which I shall refer have not been included. Speaking generally, I indorse the opinions of speakers who have preceded me to the extent that I. consider the statement in the main satisfactory, and that the Government have reason to be proud of their achievements, during the past few years. When criticism is being hurled at the Government from all quarters, I suggest that the critics should bear in mind the strenuous times through which we have passed. -

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

– We have won the war., anyway.

Senator FOLL:

– Yes, we have won the war, and the part played by Australia is being appreciated every day ‘ by other parts of the Empire, as well as our Allies.

Senator O’Keefe:

– You mean . that Australia did her share in winning the war.

Senator FOLL:

– Yes. I am not speaking in- a narrow sense. I mean that we have reason to rejoice that we have emerged victoriously from the war, and to be proud of the part Australia took in the conflict.

I commend the Government for the repeal of a large number of regulations made under the War Precautions Act. I rejoice in the fact that peace has been proclaimed, and that in the future this Parliament will be in a better position to voice the opinions of the people than during the past four years. Honorable senators will now feel under less restraint than during war time, when possibly the free expression of their views might have led to international complications. During the war honorable senators were almost obliged to indorse practically everything that the Government did, but for the future, speaking for myself, I shall feel free to criticise the Government, when necessary, in connexion with measures which I do not agree with.

The first and most important question dealt with in the Ministerial statementis that of repatriation. The Government may be congratulated upon what has been achieved to date; but we must not lose sight of the fact that there are pin-pricks in the administration of the Department, and that a large number of men are not quite satisfied. Many complaints have come under my notice, and although in some cases misunderstanding has arisen through men expecting what they are not entitled to, in a great many cases they have genuine grievances. The Department would be well advised to appoint a complaints officer in each State, as was done by the Defence Department some time ago. such officer to be free from official direction, with authority to inquire into al’l grievances and suggest the remedy. It is provided in the regulations that if a man was not in business prior to enlistment, he cannot now obtain monetary assistance from the Department to enable him to enter into business on his own account. I brought this matter under Senator Millen’s notice some time ago, and the Minister pointed out then that it was not possible to make every man a shopkeeper on his own account; but during the war a large number of men have had practical experience in the control of businesses overseas, managing, farms and similar concerns, and they are now in a position to carry on a business on their own ‘account. A number of cases have been brought under my notice by Local Committees. They are what- may be regarded as first-class propositions, and there is no doubt that if money were forthcoming, the men for whom, they are intended would be successful. At present,- however, it is not possible for the men to obtain monetary assistance. There are other returned soldiers who are willing to put up a portion . of the money themselves.

Many a mam who has been careful during a period of service, and has saved £200 or £300, and also a fair amount of his deferred pay, is prepared to put up a certain amount if the Government will help to the extent of £1 for £1. If the scope of the Act were enlarged to provide for these cases, men would be assisted to become prosperous citizens, and the fact that the Department was interested in the venture would in itself be a safeguard .against unwise speculation by the soldier, because the staff of departmental experts would be able to make all the necessary inquiries, to be satisfied that the proposition was a genuine one, and safe from a repatriation point of view. I commend these suggestions to the Minister in the hope that he will be able to assist men who can submit good propositions, and who are desirous of starting in business for themselves, but who cannot get the assistance they require at present, because of the wording of the Act.

I desire for a few minutes to deal with the housing scheme for returned soldiers. In this connexion I intend to quote some important statements from reports of the Inter-State Commission. The information contained in these reports is so valuable that I should like a copy of them, if that were possible, to be placed in every home in Australia. So far as Queens-, land is concerned, the housing scheme has not yet made a great deal of headway. I understand that this is mainly due to some hitch that occurred between’ the Commonwealth Government and the State Savings Bank. The fact remains that although the War Service Homes Bill was passed by. this Parliament at the end of last year, we are now well advanced in the present year, and it was only the other day that we received invitations from the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank to attend the laying of the foundation stone of the first house to-be erected under the Government scheme. In view of the shortage of house accommodation, and the impatience of many returned soldiers to secure homes, I urge the Government to push on with this work as fast as possible.

I was approached a little time ago by Messrs.. James Campbell and- Sons, of

Brisbane, a large firm of master builders, on the subject of the purchase of material within Australia for the erection of soldiers’ homes. > Although the letter 1 received from this firm is fairly long, I propose to quote it for the information of honorable senators. It is as follows: -

We understand it is the intention of the Federal Housing Commissioner to go past Australian merchants for materials required for the erection of the homes for returned soldiers, under the new scheme. In Queensland alone it is announced that from 2,000 to 2,500 houses per year will be required, and if the merchants of Queensland are deprived of the business that will come from the erection of these homes, it will be a very serious thing for them and their employees. It seems nothing less than cruel that while we are deprived of portion of our hard-earned profits tq provide taxes and contributions to war loans and patriotic funds, when the Government has an opportunity to lighten the burden caused by the depression that has existed, since the outbreak of war, in the Wardware trade, by distributing their business to merchants, it should take the opposite course and contribute to the .continuance of the depression by placing the orders in other countries.

We know that a good deal is made of the argument that the material will be brought out in Common.wealth Government ships free of freight, and will be admitted into the Commonwealth free of duty; but we are at a loss to understand where the saving is going to come in, because the steamship line will then lose the freight and the Customs Department the duty. If it is desired that the soldiers should be provided with their materials at practically oversea cost, then an arrangement could be made for a drawback of duty by the Customs, and a remission of freight by the steamship line. It is a. matter quite easy of solution if it is desirable that these items should not be included in the cost of the soldiers’ homes, but while wishing to give the soldier every advantage, we are at a loss to understand why this is necessary.

We know that the merchants of this State and a number of the Southern States, whose views have been conveyed to us, regard this intention as an injustice, and we shall be glad if you will, in the interests of the prosperity of Queensland at least, do all in your power to induce the Acting Prime Minister and the Minister for Repatriation to instruct that all materials required for these homes shall be procured through merchants operating in the States where the buildings are to be erected.

We are quite sure that the merchants would be willing to supply any material required for these soldiers’ homes at specially low rates. The items that will .be particularly affected by any decision to buy overseas would be galvanized roofing iron, builders’ ironmongery, gas and electric light fittings, and paints.

We shall be glad to hear from you at an earlydate on this matter, and hope that we may have your influence and that of an)’ of your friends whom you can interest in this matter.

Yours faithfully, for James Campbell & Sons Ltd.,

ID. Bell, Director.

When I was in Brisbane recently, a number of members of the Master Builders Association interviewed me in regard to the large amount of work to be done in Queensland in connexion with the building of soldiers’ homes. I pointed out to these gentlemen that while I did not desire that any firms should make undue profits out of the erection ‘of soldiers’ homes, I felt that in view of their experience in the business, and the machinery and facilities they possessed, the Government would do well, at any rate, to have some consultation with them, and to see whether they were not in a position to submit a proposition which could be accepted. If they make a proposal which is not sound, and there is evidence that they desire to make huge profits out of the erection of soldiers’ homes, the Government will be in no way bound, and can turn down their proposal. These firms have a large number of employees, the building of houses is their special business, and the Government would do well to consult them and see whether they may not be of material assistance in this matter. So far as I know, none of these firms has yet been consulted. I understand that it is the intention of the Government to let con- tracts to contractors who are returned soldiers, and, if that is not possible, to build the homes themselves, on the daylabour system. If the Government policy of preference to returned soldiers is the obstacle in the way of securing the assistance of established building firms, that might be overcome by making it a condition of any contract with them that they shall give preference to returned soldiers. The Government inspectors could easily see that that policy was carried out. These established firms might erect soldiers’ homes more cheaply than the Government could erect them under the day-labour system. When- I cite our experience in connexion with the transcontinental railway, and some of the work done at Canberra, it will be ad mitted that Government work under’ the day-labour system has not been very satisfactory. I hope that we shall have no similar experience in connexion with the erection of soldiers’ homes.

The principal matter to which Campbell and Sons direct attention is- that the Government are going overseas for the timber required for the erection of soldiers’ homes. We hear everywhere that we should support our own industries, and it is somewhat inconsistent that the Government should propose to go overseas for the timber required for soldiers’ homes.

Senator Pratten:

– I think that statement is inaccurate. I understand that it is the policy of the Government to use Australian material as far as possible.

Senator FOLL:

– I sincerely hope that Senator Pratten’s statement is correct, and that the Government will not go overseas for these materials. I remind the honorable senator, however, that the tightest Ring in Australia at the present time is the Timber Ring, and if the Government desire to obtain Australian timbers at a reasonable cost they must first break down that Ring. If they propose to do so by importing material for soldiers’ homes from overseas, I should like to say that, in my opinion, that is the wrong way to go about the business. Surely there are other means which the Government might adopt.

Senator Pratten:

– They might erect their own saw-mills.

Senator FOLL:

– That might not be. an altogether undesirable thing to do. I am , not so much concerned with the method they adopt as. with seeing that Australian timbers shall, as far as possible, be used in. the construction of soldiers’ homes. I propose to make a quotation from the report of the Inter-State Commission, which will show that it is a very mild statement to say merely that there is a Timber Ring in Australia. One of their reports goes to prove that the supply of timber for Australia at the present time is practically in the hands of a few persons. They can put their heads together and increase the price of timber at any time they think fit, and without justification. That is one of the things which the

Housing Commissioner will find himself up against; but I hope that the Government will not go overseas for timber as a means of reducing the price of timber in Australia for building purposes.

Senator de Largie:

– There is no more justification for going overseas for timber than there is for going overseas for hats, boots, and the products of other protected industries.

Senator FOLL:

– I hope to deal with that matter also before I sit down. I believe that that practice might be prevented by legislation; but” the Government, unfortunately. have not the power under our Constitution to deal effectively with it at present. They should secure the constitutional .power to regulate profits, and that would be found to be an effective means to reduce prices.

I wish to quote from the Interestate Commission’s report to show the position so far as the supply of bricks is concerned. The Government are up against a serious proposition if they intend to purchase bricks for soldiers’ homes from the present proprietary brickyards. My quotation refers principally to New South Wales, and should be of interest to Senator Pratten. I find that the Inter-State Commissioners say -

The brickmakers of Sydney (except the State brickworks) are associated in a “holding company,” the Metropolitan Brick Company, by an agreement of a stringent character. The whole of the output is virtually pooled by a system of agreed proportions of the total being manufactured by each brick master. Any excess or deficiency is adjusted from time to time in the distribution of tlie proceeds of all sales. A committee named in the agreement fixes prices and governs the Combine. No minutes are kept of meetings, an unprecedented feature which the president explained by saying that the whole thing’ works so .harmoniously, that no record of any kind is necessary.

Senator NEWLANDS:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– An honorable understanding.

Senator FOLL:

– Just so. That will show what the Housing Commissioner will have .to face. We are told that “ The president said that no member had ever broken the rules.” I suppose that he meant by that that the members knew what the consequence would he if they did break the rules - that their supplies would be cut off; that they would be boycotted in some way, and prevented from carrying on their business successfully. The. quotation continues -

The Combine rigorously enforces the condition that a builder must take all his supplies or none from members. A witness gave evidence that while building a large business place in the ci’ty he needed black face-bricks. He found that another builder operating near-by was obtaining them from a Arm in the Combine. On ringing up to place an order he was asked where he was getting his other bricks, and was then referred to the Metropolitan Brick Company (the “holding company” for the Combine). The latter company asked the same question, and the answer was “ the State Brickworks.” It was then discovered that the Combine had no black facebricks for sale, and, though the person giving this answer claimed to have been misunderstood, the occurrence is an illustration of the condition frankly admitted.

The price of common bricks rose from 45s. per 1,000 in 1014 to 50s. in February, 1917, at which figure it remained stationary UP to the time when evidence was given, though the present president of the association, popularly known as the Brick Combine, forecasted a further rise at the beginning of this1 year (1910). This rise has since been announced in the press, and amounts to 2s. 6d. per thousand. The number of bricks ordinarily used in a brick cottage of four rooms and kitchen, &c, is said to be about 35,000,. and, therefore, the added burden on this account since 1914 would be £13 2s. 6d.

I will deal now with another important building commodity, namely, Marseilles tiles. The information obtained by the Commission clearly demonstrates -that the tile, manufacturers have made a big harvest since the outbreak of the war, when the importation of overseas tiles practically ceased. The document continues -

The principal manufacturers of roofing tiles in Victoria are’ combined in an association, which has a very close control of at least GO per cent, of the trade. The association fixes prices for the supply of tiles, and its method of working is to give prices for roofing, which ‘ include the fixing of the tiles by the suppliers. While not absolutely refusing to sell tiles to builders to be fixed on .roofs by the purchaser, the association makes the price so high (£20 per thousand) as to be admittedly” prohibitive. Two reasons are given in justification of the association’s action in keeping not only the supply but the work of fixing of roofing tiles in their own hands, the one which is most emphasized being that they prefer to do the fixing in order that they may be sure that the work is satisfactorily carried out. (One witness stated that it is usual to give a two years’ guarantee that the roof will be weatherproof.) The second reason is a frank avowal that the fixing insures a certain amount of added profit. Some, at least, of the competing companies outside the association sell their tiles outright,- and do not quote any prices for fixing. A witness representing one such company said that his charge is £18 per thousand at the yard. In Sydney the manufacturers sell the whole of their tiles outright, but take uo part in the fixing.

In order to provide a safeguard against breaches of the rules fixing the prices of tiles, the association requires members who measure up roofs for the purpose of tendering to furnish the association with a copy of their measurements. More than one member may measure up a job, and in that way the association obtains a check by comparison.

I take it that the reason for that procedure would be to insure that a builder could not possibly obtain more tiles than were to be actually used upon the job in hand. There would be no chance of his getting enough to undertake another job -

It would appear from the minutes that this precaution against breaches of the rules is carefully observed, as there are frequent entries showing that reports of measurements are submitted to -the meeting, a proportion only of which are passed. In one instance, for example, forty-four reports of measurements were dealt with, and thirty -four passed; the balance, according to the secretary’s evidence, would have been held over for investigation. Each member deposits £100, and the association has power to impose penalties in cases of breaches of the rules.

One important company, which is a member of the association, is located at Ballarat, but competes in the metropolitan area,, and explains its capacity for that competition by two facts, namely, .that it has an advantage in .the clay, inasmuch as it is using slimes that have already been treated by mining operations, and the material is therefore in a partly prepared state; and also as its manufactures are delivered at the Spencer-street Railway Station it is better situated in supplying many of the suburbs than are some of the suburban manufacturers.

A resolution of the association, passed in July, 1016, provides that -the minimum rates for Ballarat within a 5-mile radius of:th Post Office shall be the same as Melbourne for private work only; all Government work to be at country rate. So far as the private work is concerned, .it was explained in evidence that this resolution was passed to protect the Ballarat company, and give it the control of busit nesa within the area where it is located. With regard to Government work, the reason for the provision was said to be that Government contracts are often much larger than .those of private individuals, and it was thought reasonable that the Melbourne manufacturers should have the opportunity of competing. The effect, however, is that if the Government desired any tile-roofing to be done within the Ballarat area, even though the work were done by the local company, the price would be raised by adding to it the cost of freight from Melbourne, which on the scale adopted by the association is 17s. 6d. per square, or nearly 30 per cent, addition to the standard price at the present time. Witnesses questioned on this subject protested that there was no intention to penalize the Government, but that is obviously the result, and although they further stated that there was practically no Government work of the kind going on at Ballarat, it is clear that the terms of the resolution were intended to have some meaning.

While, as stated above, the association only controls about 60 per cent, of the trade, the members comprise owners of all the old-established businesses. Several new companies have been formed within the last few years to manufacture tiles outside the association, and there is some evidence that their competition takes the form of making a slight reduction in prices. Owing to the present demand, however, this competition has had no effect in checking the output of any of the association companies, or causing them to lower their prices.

The dearness of galvanized iron .has led to a great demand for tiles. Before the war these were either imported from Marseilles and’ sold on the wharf at £12 per 1,000, or else were made locally and sold at £11. The selling price of French tiles increased in 1915 to £15 5s, in 1916 to £22 5s., and in 1917 to £24 10s. per 1,000, at which price importing ceased, as no business could be continued.

The report proceeds - and I emphasize this -

Local tiles rose during the war from £11 to £18 10s. None of the witnesses examined could give any reason for an advance of 50 per cent., at any rate, in the case of businesses whose plants were installed before the war. The pressure of demand, however, was so great that several new yards were opened, two of them on a large scale, and these new businesses had to incur great additional expense in installing machinery. It was. mentioned in the Tariff Report on Slate Slabs, Tiles, &c., that the local tile industry before the war was already so prosperous .that none of the tile manufacturers opposed the then suggested reduction of duty.

– I consider it is the duty of honorable senators, if they can ascertain facts which affect the public, to make them known to the Government, and generally.

So far as the Timber Merchants Association in Victoria is concerned, the report states : -

Competition between members is kept in check by the rule which provides that no branch yards shall be opened without the consent of the association; and, further, that branch yards shall not be sold or transferred apart from the main business, as they carry no rights to membership. .

It appears, then, that competition has virtually ceased. In former times the public benefited by healthy competition; but now various manufactures and industries are getting into the hands of unscrupulous parties, banded together in Combines, for the purpose of forcing up prices.

I trust that the Government will not merely confine attention to ‘ the housing of returned soldiers, but will go in for a housing scheme by which the community generally may benefit. The report indicates that the British Government are adopting a scheme to benefit the community generally, not merely from the housing point of view, but with the object also of reducing high rentals. I will quote further -

In June, 1918, the British Minister of Reconstruction issued an interesting report upon housing conditions in England and Wales. This report was prepared by a Sectional Committee (of which the Marquis of Salisbury was chairman), known as the Advisory Housing Panel.

And these are the recommendations of that Committee in regard to housing -

That the State should provide the whole cost of building, and should own the houses for a period to be fixed, say five years, at the end of which prices may be expected to have attained a normal level. This period is referred to as the transitional period.

During this period the local authority will act as agents of the State, and will be responsible, subject to the approval of the District Commissioner hereafter described, for building and managing the houses and collecting the rents.

At the end. of the transitional period the ownership of the houses will be transferred to the local authorities at a figure to be arrived at by deducting from the original cost such a percentage as represents the fall in price of materials and labour, together with a fair allowance for depreciation.

I now propose to address myself to the Institute of Science and Industries. Honorable senators will recollect that when the Bill authorizing the establishment of the institute was under review here, a number of honorable senators, upon this side of the Chamber did their best to prevent it becoming law hurriedly. Our efforts were fairly successful, because when Parliament adjourned ‘just before Christmas, the” Bill was still on the business-paper of the House of Representatives. But despite the fact -that the measure has not yet become law, the Government have appointed a secretary at a large salary, also various members of the Board, , and have taken large office premises in Danks’ Buildings; indeed, they have done everything that would have been done >ha$ ‘the Bill .been placed upon the statute-book. I ta&e it that (large sums tff money are being disbursed : for the upeeg of this institute, although upon the motion for the second reading of the Appropriation (Works and ^Buildings) Bill in this ‘Chamber ‘last -year the Minister for Repatriation .assured Senator Fairbairn that nothing would be done in , the direction of .expending .money which might be appropriated for the purpose until the Bill had finally become law. I find upon reference to *Mansard Chat Senator Fairbairn, speaking in this Chamber on the 17*h October last year, said -

Among these -voluminous items I see one for -£3,000 for an Institute of Science and Industry. It occurs to me ‘f/hat that expenditure is entirely illegal. I have carefully read section 51 of the Constitution, and can see in it no power delegated -to the Commonwealth by the States which would bring this proposal within the -four corners of the law.

When replying, Senator Millen .stated -

Even if the Senate passes this amount, it cannot possibly be expended until the Bill authorizing the Government to ‘proceed with the creation of a Science Institute shall have been finally approved.

Seeing that the Bill has not yet been passed by another place, I would like to know who is going to pay the moneys which have already been expended in connexion with the institute if .the Bill be finally rejected ? The Government have absolutely flouted the will of Parliament in this matter.

Senator Fairbairn:

– I suppose that Ministers will pay that money out of their own salaries.

Senator FOLL:

– I suppose that they will .not. .But in view of the definite assurance given by Senator Millen, the “Government are surely overriding the rights of Parliament -when they take action of the character I have suggested.

I now wish to deal with the vexed question of the high cost of living. I recognise that it is not possible for the Government under our present limited constitutional powers to effectively deal with this question, .and I therefore ‘hope that on the first -available opportunity they will ask the people of Australia- ito endow them with larger powers. The people are looking to the Government to dead -with this question an the future. There is no ,doubt that ‘profiteering .is being practised, -and the reports of the .Inter-State Coin.mass.On dearly ‘demonstrate that there are –a number of unscrupulous traders in this community who ‘are, ito some extent .at least, responsible foa’ the industrial unrest that obtains here. I admit that various industrial troubles must also share a degree of responsibility for :tlie high east of -commodities. The seamen’s strike, for example, has been the means of raising the prices mt goods, because articles which were previously carried by sea have now to fee (transported by rail, and have to pay, perhaps, four times the freight that they formerly .paid. This is one of the -reasons why the cost of living is on the upward grade.. Nevertheless, it .is manifest that profiteering is going on, and this -I shall clearly demonstrate before I resume my seat. If the Government -wish to .retain the .confidence of -the electors they must endeavour to secure -the constitutional powers necessary to -enable them to effectively ‘deal with this matter. One item -which is .almost as important as that of foodstuffs is the item of clothing. The exorbitant prices which are being charged for quite a number of articles of everyday -use are responsible for a considerable amount of the discontent which exists amongst the Tank and file of the community. Upon page 7 of the Inter-State Commission’s report, No. 11, dealing with clothing, I find the following: -

It wa-e urged by importers that an appreciable contributing cause to the increased cost of clothing .and of materials for its manufacture is (lie heavier actual burden of Customs dirties paid by the consumer since the war. As the .average import values of clothing and piece goods, &c, have increased nearly 100 per cent, since 1914, the *ad valorem duties have involved heavier amounts being paid on “the same .articles. Whilst war conditions render the amount now levied much in excess of that necessary for the protection of local industry, such excess may be fairly -considered as necessary indirect .taxation to meet the financial emergency -arising .out of the war. It .does, however, constitute a heavy addition to the cost .to the consumer of all imported goods which are .dutiable according to value.

– The real trouble in Australia was the absence of machinery. We could not get.it.

Senator FOLL:

– The fact remains that the higher prices then being charged for wool induced the Government to. take action, otherwise the people concerned would not have made overtures to the Government.

Sitting suspended from 6.S0 to 8 p.m.

Senator FOLL:

– I attribute a great deal of the existing unrest to the fact that the cost of living, and the cost of clothing particularly, has increased out of all proportion to the advance in wages. In proof of this, I point out that, according to the Inter-State Commission’s report, the price of men’s all-wool undershirts increased from 36s. per dozen in 1914 to 84s. per dozen in 1918 ; woollen sweaters, from 48s. to 96s. ; cardigans, from 72s. to 130s. The report contains a long list of other articles of clothing which have similarly advanced in price. We cannot, therefore, blame altogether the labour market for the increase in the cost of living, and consequently we have to look for other reasons. I sincerely trust the Government will, at the earliest opportunity, endeavour to secure from the people those powers which will permit them to take some action to .check this damnable increase in the cost of articles of wear and the necessaries of life.

I want now to turn to the question involved in the transfer to Australia of German New Guinea under the terms of the Peace Treaty. I hope it will not prove another white elephant, as has been the case with the Northern Territory, where money is being poured out for very little return. I am indebted to Mr. H. N. Leach, whose article appears in the Brisbane Courier, for information and figures giving a comparison between German New Guinea and Java. These figures are of great importance, in view of the fact that in the near future Australia will take over an extensive area formerly under the administration of the German Government. I lay stress on the fact that, so far as New Guinea is concerned, the climatic conditions and geographical situation are practically identical, and that Java to-day is probably one of the most flourishing countries in the world. Under sane administration, the new territory should be equally as profitable. Mr. Leach states -

German New Guinea has an area of 74,200 square miles, while Java has only 50,000 square miles. Yet the population of Java is given at 36,000,000, including 76,000 white people and 563,000 Asiatics, while German New Guinea has about 500,000 natives, 500 Asiatics, and 1,000 whites. The exports -from Java are valued at £72,346,378, while from German New Guinea they are £604,340. Both countries are in the same latitude, have similar soils, climate, and natural conditions. Why, then, should not German New Guinea be developed into a prosperous condition equal to Java? It is only a matter of generalship ( in another word, intelligence ) that is called for.

The following table will explain the statistical relationship of the two countries at the present time: -

– But we knew what the Northern Territory was- before it was taken over, and that South Australia was making- a. very good bargain with the Commonwealth. I remind the honorable senator that the Hon. Staniforth Smith, in his report upon Papua, pointed, out that many things that Australia is in need of can be produced there, so there should be. no need to go to the other side of the world for them. In one particular case, a returned soldier mentioned to me the question: of cocoanut plantations.. He said that although’ the proposition is not altogether a good one on the mainland, because of the longer period before a return can be expected, there are a great number of- small islands, situated round the coasts of Papua, where plantations can be developed at a lower cost:,, and which in a few years should’ show a consider stole profit. He says - 1’hc main point for consideration, is the difference between growing: cocoanut on the small! islands and on the mainland of Papua, islands: such as. the Torlesse Group and others! being specially suitable. Of recent years the Governor of Papua has, for some reason un’ known to the public, persistently refused to grant leases of these uninhabited islands, which are so suitable for cocoanut growing, and so well adapted to the “ small “ man with limited capital.

– That would be their own concern. If the Government granted’ the leases which -have been applied for; it would be their own look-out if those who took them up made a failure of the business they embarked upon. The writer of the letter proceeds -

It may be said, without fear of contradiction^, that our local Government does nothing to encourage the- small settler; returned) soldier, or otherwise,, and if. the matter is- left in. the hands of this Government, it is- safe to say that the returned soldier will receive no assistance whatever. Judge Murray personally informed me a few days ago that leases of the islands would, not be granted, under, any conditions! No reason was given. The general impression is that the- Government intends to plant these islands, and’ so> keep out the small’ settler-..

Senator Rowell:

– asked how long it would be before- a settler could expect a return from a cocoanut plantation, and I find! tine following statement made on that subject: - ‘

These islands are specially suitable for small -settlers, being very much cheaper in upkeep than the mainland, and also they reach the bearing stage more quickly. I could plant and bring to the bearing stage in six years an island of 150 acres for £1,000, assisted by my earnings as a miner at Misima, where I am now working.

– There is Asiatic labour being utilized at the present time in German New Guinea.

In the hand-book on New Guinea, published by the Hon. Staniforth Smith, there is a reference to cotton, which is a commodity used extensively in Australia at the present time. He reports generally that cotton-growing would be a paying proposition in that part of the world. If it were undertaken- it should serve to reduce the price of cotton in Australia at the present time. According to the report of the Inter-State Commission, this commodity is practically controlled by a large English Combine. The Inter-State Commission reports that the high cost in Australia is not due to the expense of produce tion, but merely because we are here com-* pletely in the hands of a large English Combine. In their report oh clothing, the Inter-State Commission say -

The supply and distribution of sewing cotton ure almost entirely in the hands of two great British groups of’ companies, one of which - the Coats group - is represented in Australia by the Central Agency Limited, and the other - the English Thread Company - by Richard Allenand Sons Proprietary Limited, Melbourne, and Direct Agencies Limited, Sydney.

The Central Agency - .the British company - is the distributing company for what is popularly known as the Coats Combine - an amalgamation of companies consisting of J. and P. Coats Limited, Clark and Company, Jonas Brook, Chadwick’s Limited, and Kerr’s Limited.

The English Thread Company originally consisted of fourteen firms, but other large firms were subsequently included.

Two of the constituent companies within the Coats amalgamation, viz., Chadwick’s and Kerr’s, are separately represented in Australia, the agency of the companies having been continued with the firms who were acting at the time their principals joined the group. This separate representation, however, does not imply any actual competition, for the prices are determined by the British head-quarters in Glasgow, and are kept uniform throughout. The English Thread Company, also, though it originally appeared to have been formed as a separate and competing group, has evidently become merged in the larger combination, as may be inferred from the fact that the super? intendent in Australia of the Central Agency is also the superintendent of the English Thread Company, and that all instructions regarding prices in Australia of both companies’ goods are issued through him. This powerful combination, which manufactures both inGreat Britain and in the United States, is represented all over theworld, and is everywhere dominant in the sewing cotton trade. The Australian superintendent said, “ There is always opposition, but I admit it is of a minor character.” In the household lines of sewing cottons, viz., 200 and 300 yard6-cord sewing cottons, the control by the Combine appears to be particularly rigid, though the lesser group, the English Thread Company, is permitted to sell its cottons at a small reduction of1s. to 2s. per gross below those of the Central Agency. The reason for the special attention given to these lines is no doubt partly because of the great volume of trade which they represent, and partly because, as they are found in every home, and must be distributed through retailers, competition may be more readily controlled. In the case of machine cottons and threads used only or chiefly by manufacturers, the possibility of these trade buyers, with their command of capital and knowledge of trading facilities, obtaining direct supplies from smaller competing manufacturers is obviously a consideration which affects the views of the company, and which is not present in the case of cottons, the principal sale of which is purely for household purposes.

Instances were given by- several witnesses of the manner in which the Central Agency uses its power to prevent the introduction and sale of cottons manufactured by producers outside the groups it controls.

One witness, a departmental manager in a large softgoods warehouse, said that, some years ago, when serving under another company, negotiations were entered into for supplies of British cottons by an independent manufacturer, and the Central Agency threatened to cut off supplies. The result was that the negotiations with the competing company were abandoned. The same witness said, that later on. when he was manager for Thomas Brown and Sons, of Brisbane, he took up a line of British cottons outside the Combine, with the result that the chief representative of the Central Agency interviewed him personally, and said that the company’s account would be liable to be closed unless the purchases of new cotton were discontinued. The same witness, who is now with a Melbourne company, stated that during the last two years samples have been forwarded from time to time from English manufacturers outside the Combines, but his company has been unable to entertain . their offers, in view of the attitude taken up by the Central Agency representative. The chief representative of the Central Agency, when questioned subsequently as . to the interview abovementioned, said, “ I do not remember that, and know nothing about it; it is most unlikely, and I deny it absolutely.”

An indent merchant deposed that during the last few months he had submitted samples of Japanese cottons to wholesale houses, and was told that the purchase could not be entertained, as, if the company bought any such cotton, it would be boycotted by the Central Agency. The wholesale witness just previously quoted said that he was one of those to whom the Japanese cottons in question were submitted, but he did not purchase, although the prices seemed very, favorable, partly because of the absence ‘of experience of Japanese cottons. “The governing factor in my mind,” he added, “ was that, if we touched those lines, the Central Agency would take care to make them unprofitable for us sooner or later. I based that opinion on my previous experience.”

The representative of another wholesalefirm said he also had been approached recently with regard to the purchase of Japanese cottons, but declined to take them up, chiefly for the reason that there would probably be conflict with the Central Agency. He continued, “ That opinion was based on experience obtained some twelve years ago, when my company took up another English line of cotton. The Central Agency made representations to induce the company to desist from importing outside English cottons, and it was intimated that supplies would probably be cut off.” Finally instructions were issued by the London office of the purchasing company not to send orders for the outside line of cotton.

The witness said that in this case the competing cotton was of British make, and a perfectly good article, at a satisfactory price.

– I will say nothing further upon that except that immediately a machine is invented which will reduce the cost of picking cotton, the industry will become a success in Northern Australia.

The report dealing with Papua refers to discoveries .of copper, gold, lead, mercury, zinc, and other minerals. I appeal to the Government to sanely administer that Territory so that it shall become wealth-producing rather than a burden on the taxpayers of Australia. I am aware that Papua is a most important defence consideration. But if it is going to be a mere sink for our money, then it will hardly.be worth our having.

I desire to deal briefly with the office of the High Commissioner in London. On account of that official being only a public servant, without executive authority, he possesses very limited powers. I suggest that the occupant of the position should be the possessor of a portfolio in the Commonwealth Ministry. Then the .Commissioner would be vested with authority to deal with all matters relative to Australia, and when an intricate question arose, it would not be necessary to send a Minister from Melbourne to London. The up-keep of the office of High Commissioner is costly, and although Mr. Fisher is performing his duties admirably, his position is both difficult and unsatisfactory.

Although! I shall be prepared, to. support a Tariff which will encourage Aus.tralian manufacturers, I would like to have some’ assurance that the new Tariff - will not be used by manufacturers to exploit the masses. If we are to afford pro.tection to various industries the people concerned therein must be prepared to give something in return.

Senator de Largie:

– The cry for Protection is nothing but an appeal for Melbourne industries, to sweat the rest of Australia. Wait until the Tariff discussion begins, and honorable senators will see how the Victorian representatives will pull together.

Senator FOLL:

– That is one of the disadvantages of having the Federal Parliament in Melbourne. Better legislation will be enacted- when the Federal Parliament meets at Canberra. I hope the Government will either turn the InterState Commission into a Tariff Commission or will appoint another Commission to insure that the Tariff is properly regulated, so that where an industry is granted protection, the manufacturers will not be afforded an opportunity to pile up prices upon the consumer. Prior to the war, Australian-made articles were kept just a few pence below the price of imported goods. When freights became scarcer and scarcer, and the cost of production in England had vastly increased so that the prices of such commodities as were imported here had vastly increased, Australian manufacturers , saw to it - wherever they could - that the prices of their wares still remained just a few pence below that of the imported article.

Senator EARLE:
Tasmania

.- One cannot enter upon a discussion of the particulars contained in the Ministerial statement without making some reference to the glorious change which has recently taken place in Europe, whereby our Empire and Allies have returned to a condition of peace after the terrible holocaust of war. Probably in the history of the world there has been no such welcome change as has now come to the peoples of to-day. It is natural that one should take a retrospective view of the situation from which we have emerged in order to give due credit to those responsible for the wonderful transition. It is very- hard for the> average Australian, so far removed from the seat of war, to realize what this continent has escaped by a victory for theAllied arms. The conduct of the enemy has been such as to convince us that no people among the whole of the belligerent nations would have been forced into greater sacrifices than Australia had our arms been unsuccessful. Numbers of 23eople think that England, France, Italy, and other countries, being in closer conflict in this terrible struggle, would, have been the greater sufferers, but I want to bring home to the people of Australia the fact that not only would their worldly goods: have been confiscated - not only would they have suffered the same financial difficulties as the people of European Empires - but they would also have had to submit to what would inevitably have been tyrannical control and slavedom at the handsof the enemy. It would not have been so with other countries. Those which are more densely populated would offer little room for the German surplus population, but in sparsely-populated Australia therewas the great opportunity, which would” certainly have been embraced, for the settlement of the enemy’s surplus population. There is, therefore, little doubt that, as the result of defeat, Australia would have lost more than any of the other peoples engaged in the conflict. It has been advanced over and over againthat Australia did wonderfully well in the war. Credit should go to whom it i8 due. Australia did not do over well in the war. The 413,000 of Australia’s sons who went to the Front did well. They created for themselves a name which will never die: they made sacrifices which no man could” exceed. Over 50,000 of them will never return. Those men did well, but the credit due to them is not reflected upon the eligible man who was equally able togo, but refused to do anything for the defence of Australia. I strongly object to the credit due to the men who did the work and made the sacrifice being taken by those who have done nothing. I noticed in a Labour paper not long igo that considerable credit was taken on behalf of a union that had 1,000 members.

To prove their loyalty, patriotism, and self-sacrificing disposition, they said they had sent 400 of their members to the Front. But the other 600, at one of the most crucial periods in the war”, came out on strike on a matter which did not concern them, and in which they had no grievance. They came. out in support of a band of men who created a revolt in the New South “Wales Government Workshops in 1917, because there had been introduced into the workshops a card system, which was already operating in Australia in concerns owned and controlled by the Labour movement, and was even operating, here when I was a boy. Among those who, supported that strike was this very union which had. sent 400 men to the Front and had only 600 members left behind. To use the common phrase, those men, when they, went on strike., blacklegged on their comrades who were lightingfor the liberty, of the world. No credit is clue to that union, or to any such organization. No credit is due to the shirkersof Australia for what pur men did in this great, war. It mightcome home more forcibly if . I asked whether it would be any credit to , the eligible members of, the Melbourne Club if, outof a membership of, say, 500,100 went to the Front. No credit, would be due to the eligible members who remained behind. The credit is due tothose who went and did the work.I heard a very forcible speech , from Senator . Gardiner, the main trendof a part ofwhich was that in. the armisticetermsandthe termsof Peace, there was evidence of a desiretobeharsh, and even cruel, towards the enemy. It is, asingular thing that men widely read, whohave given consideration to all the incidents -of the war, should find it necessary to devote a, considerable portion of their time and energy to obtaining leniency for a nation which has been sp distinctly brutal . The , following quotation fromThrough theHindenburgLine, by , F. A. Mackenzie, may strengthen the statement I have already made -

I have seen many crimes of Germanyin this war. . I was in Belgium when her armies outraged, burned, and destroyed. I, heard from -the lipsof dying men flung from her decksthe -tale of howtheLusitamia had been sunk. Ihave helped at the Dutch frontier to receive British prisoners, wrecked and broken by the cruelty of their German captors. I have lived in the recovered cities of France, and learned from their people the nameless cruelties and bestialities inflicted on them. But never have I witnessed anything whichhas filled me with such cold rage as the killing by German airmen of our nurses,’ doctors and helpless men in Northern France.

This is not a thing which was perpetrated by drunken soldiers. It was not perpetrated by excited men . in the midst of war. It was methodically organized and carried out by the German nation. Yet we find public men, with great responsibilities, delivering speeches which, if they serve any purpose at all, can create only discontent within Australia with the conditions forced upon that nation by the Peace terms. No matter what, the Allies did to Germany, they could never be severe enough to meet the ends of common justice. I believe Germany will never pay the indemnity which the Allies have levied uponher, and am not looking forward with any great hope to the payment of that debt. But even if the indemnity were ten times as large, Germany could never redeem hername or compensate for the damage she has doneto the civilized, world.

I wish to make brief references to the discontent and disaffectionexistingin Australia to-day.. It isone of the unexplained factsthat social, and. industrial discontent and disturbance alwaysfollow a war. If any country in the whole world ought to realize theabsolutenecessity for its people to pull , together, toproduce,and build up its resources, it is Australia. There is. no othercountry in which unanimity . and, industryare necessary to thesame extent, and in which the absence of them will be so speedily felt. The opponents of. the Government, . and . some who seem, like . the Irishman,. to. beagainst every Government, make a point of creating discord and discontent. Go -where you like . at the -present -time, listen to the speeches, delivered,and you will hear on every hand the advocacy of a classconsciousness.You will hear the workers toldthat theymust recognise that they belong to one class, that there is another class which seeks to use and exploitthem. and that the only way in which they can bring about a better condition of affairs is to become class-conscious, and declare war on the class which is exploiting them. One of the prime factors in the furtherance of this class war at the’ present time is the cost of living,which has been referred to by every speaker in this debate. There is not the slightest doubt that good cause for complaint exists. The prices of scores of articles among the necessaries of life have risen out of all proportion. The production of such articles is not at allaffectedtoy war conditions, or by any conditions which might have been created subsequently by the war, and, therefore, we cannot see why these increases have taken place. There can be no just reason assigned for them, and I agree with those who say that an effort should certainly be made to check the unreasonable increases which have occurred in the prices of commodities in Australia, and thus bring home to those persons who are exploiting the public unreasonably - whoare profiteering - the fact that this practice will not be countenanced.

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

– By limiting their profits?

Senator EARLE:

– Unless we are pre- pared to enter into competition with them, we can accomplish our purpose only by limiting their profits, or by taking the whole of those profits in excess of a certain sum by means of taxation. I hold that the correct way to prevent exploitation is for the Government themselves to produce those articles the price of which has been unreasonablyraised.

Then they would be in a position to say to their competitors, “You must either sell your articles at a certain price or we will do so.” But in the matter of the increased cost of living Australia occupies the best position of any country in the world. According to the latest statistics, there is only one other country which possesses almost equal advantages. I have been at some pains to obtain the increased cost of living in various countries from the end of 1914 up to different dates in 1918. I was unable to get returns to a uniform date. From these figures I gather that the increase in the cost of living in the United Kingdom up to November, 1918, was 133 per cent., in France up to May it was 132 per cent., in Italy to April it was 136 per cent., in Portugal to February it was 133 per cent., in the United State of America to June it was 59 per cent., in Canada to August it was 81 per cent., in Australia to June it was 32 per cent., and in New Zealand to July it was 39 per cent. Of course, some . people urge that because Australia is a producer of raw materials there can be no excuse for the increased cost of living. In this connexion it is worthy of note that in New Zealand the cost of living was 7 per cent higher than it was in Australia during 1918. In South Africa the increase in the cost . of living to June, 1918, was 32 per cent., in Germany to April of the same year it was 127 per cent., in Austria to December, 1917, it was 273 per cent., in Norway to August, 1918, it was 184 per cent., in Sweden to August of the same year it was 184 per cent., in Denmark to July, 1918, it was 97 per cent., in Holland to June, 1918, it was 87 per cent., and in Switzerland to June of that year it was 130 per cent. These figures show that, all the countries which I have enumerated were worse off from the stand-point of the increased cost of living during the period of the warthan was Australia. Now let us turn to the Commonwealth. It is natural that the opponents of the Government should expect that in the State of Queensland, where a Labour Government is in office, the increase in the cost of living would be less than that in any other State in Australia. That is a very justifiable assumption if the arguments advanced by some honorable senators upon the opposite side of the chamber are well founded. But first let us see how the purchasing power of the sovereign has declinedin the various cities of the Commonwealth. Taking the average of the years from 1901 to 1911, we find that the purchasing power of the sovereign has depreciated in Sydney by 14s. - that is to say, it cost £ 1 14s. to . purchase what could have been obtained for£ 1 in 1911- in Melbourne by l1s. 3d., Brisbane by 14s. 2d., Adelaide by 13s., Perth by 10s. 10d., and Hobart by 13s. 10d., an average for the entire Commonwealth of 12 s. 9d. In other words, the sovereign has depreciated in Brisbane by 2d. more than it depreciated in Sydney, and by ls. 5d. more than its average depreciation over the six capital cities of the Commonwealth. I do not suggest that the Queensland Government could have prevented this. But the fact remains that a Labour Government in Queensland failed to prevent it. Consequently it is scarcely fair for our opponents to affirm that the Commonwealth Government are entirely- responsible for the diminution of the purchasing power of the sovereign which ‘ has taken place -throughout Australia. We get similar results if we refer to Knibbs’ statistics, which show the average of the increased cost of living throughout Australia for the five years 1914 to 1919 inclusive. Taking 1,000 as an index number, and referring to five cities in each State, I find that New South Wales starts in 1914 at 1,165, and ends in 1919 at 1,734. That is an increase of 48.8 per cent. Victoria starts with 1,106, and ends with 1,566 - an increase of 41.7 per cent. Queensland starts with a weighted average of 1,082, and ends with 1,734 - an increase of 60.3 per cent. South Australia starts with an average of 1,247, and ends with 1,652 - an increase of 32.5 per cent. Western Australia starts with 1,412, and ends with 1,656 - an increase of 17.3 per cent.; whilst Tasmania starts with- 1,201, and ends with 1,693 - an increase of 41 per cent. The average for the whole of the Commonwealth starts at 1,164, and ends with 1,666 - an increase of 42.7 per cent. Yet the increase in the case of Queensland, where a Labour Government is in office, is 60.3 per cent. We find, therefore, in- all the comparisons which we institute, that the increased cost of living in Queensland during the period of the war was greater than the increased cost of living in any other State. These figures should be carefully considered by the workers of Australia. There is no doubt that the latter are roused almost to the point of rebellion by the representations which are continually being made to them to the effect that they are .being exploited to a greater extent than any other people in the world. They are assured that they are being robbed by profiteers,’ and that the Government are responsible for this. That is the argument of the peace disturbers from start to finish. ‘They tell their hearers that nothing short of a revolution will bring about an equitable settlement to the workers of this continent. It is well for the workers to know that, although nobody attempts to justify the increases which have taken place, in Queensland, where a Labour Government have been in. office for some years, the greatest increase has taken place. . I do not suggest that the Queensland Government are responsible for this. On the contrary, I hold that they could not avoid it. But it is certainly illogical for our opponents to urge that the Commonwealth Government are responsible for the increase which has taken place in. the cost of living. Such statements are calculated to. lead the workers of Australia into an entirely false position.

Now, I desire to further stress the unwise doctrine preached by those who endeavour to create a class consciousness. The individual who lays himself out to create between man and man a class war is an enemy of- the people. I have always recognised that there has been throughout history a war of the classes. But we are now reaching an age when such a condition of affairs, especially in a country like Australia, is absolutely unnecessary, and entirely unwise. I have long argued that much of the disagreement existing between employer and employed at the present time is in a large measure blamable to both sides. There is no doubt whatever that there is a class of employer who has not the redeeming features always to be found in a slave-owner ; the man who seeks to squeeze every ounce of profit from his employees, and who is absolutely indifferent as to their conditions of life. . On the other hand, there are employers who are ever solicitous of the welfare of their employees, and anxious always to treat them equitably as men. I know that the reading of extracts is rather tedious, but I should like to read extracts from a speech, oil this question, delivered by Mr, H. W. Gepp, nowgene- ralmanager of the Zinc ExtractionAssociation, andcarrying on extensive works in Hobart, Tasmania Mr. Gepp, although an Australian has had a very extensive training in America in the handling of large bodies of men and in the supervision of big works, and, therefore, words fromhim on the question which I am discussing will carry more weight and be more convincing than anything I could possibly say; Mr. Gepp has a very fair grasp of the conditions existing between employer and employee, and I believe he offers the only sound solution of the problem. Referring to industries employing large numbers of men, hesays-

An excellent idea is to adopt a definite line of organization as regards the relation of the various members of the staff to one another as soon as possible, So that all members know to whom they are responsible, and to whom to report. So as to avoid too much of “ red tape,” which a rigid organization sometimes gives rise to, it is advisable to form what is known as a “ general staff,” to which various members of the regular staff are appointed in view of their special knowledge.

At general staff meetings, which should be held about once a month if possible, at which the head official present presides, all members are equal, and everything is subject to free discussion. This scheme affords the head official’s the opportunity ‘of gaining a right appreciation of the whole job in such a way as to be generally beneficial.

One of the most interesting essentials of this kind of work is the development of the right spirit in the staff and men by the chief officials. Every effort should bemade to develop initiative in all those engaged on the job, from the officeboy upwards; and, further, to make every one intelligently understand, firstly, the purpose and intention of his work, and, secondly, how that work is done; e.g., if a man is attending a machine, time should be taken to teach him in the simplest possible way how that machine works, and get him interested in it; or, if a man is attending a set of sulphuric acid chambers, or electrolytic cells, devote time to teaching in as graphic language as possible, and explain by simple examples what is happening inside, for themore a man knows of thus details of his job, thebetter his work willbe,andthemoreinterestingwemakethe work to the men., the more will we remove that deadly monotony which is so soul-destroying andso bad inits effects upon efficiency.

Whyisthepresentpositionsoextremelydeplorable? It seems tobebecausetheemployer is totally ignorant of the attitude of mind of the employee, and the employee equally ignorant of the true standard of the employer. Further, they have no common ideas or ideals, and no common meeting ground. And who is, say in the case of a big company, the employer? The employee regards the employer as a bigfat man, who does not care how he gets more as long as he gets it. What is the actual casein a public company, where the shares are well distributed? The employer in these concerns consists of a large number of people, many of whom have only a small individual interest, whilst some are amongst the rich class.

The representatives of all these interests, thedirectors, are regarded by the average employeeas the sole owners of the concern, and it is generally considered that they are getting all the benefits. Of course, this is not the case by any means.

But, how does the employer regard his employee? In some instances, as a man who is trying to do as little work as possible for as much ashe can get. Doubtless this is sometimes true, but is it not more often an unreasoning protest against conditions which the worker does not appreciate?

Admittedly there is ignorance and faults on both sides, and, being pretty close in touch with both, it is difficult to say on which side the faults are greater. What is required, though, at the present crisis is not criticism so much as constructive suggestion, and, tomy mind, one main idea is basic, viz., we need to abandon the theory that a minimum wage is essential, and adopt instead the conviction that there should, and must, be a minimum amountof happiness right throughout the community,withas much over and above and to the good as the united brains of the community can, by proper co-operation, evolve and develop. It is no use our taking steps to inaugurateany number of new industries in this country unless we face and settle this great problem we are now considering satisfactorily. Ifwe,. *i.e.,* the whole populationof the Com- monwealth, do not admit, and are not prepa.red to make the necessary immediate sacrifices, and will not devote ourselves towards realizing the present serious and regrettable state of affairs, and will not face the fact that contentment, and contentment only, is the basis of true efficiency, of all good work, and all reasonably satisfactory results, then the only alternative is to muddle along in the present haphazard, unsatisfactory way, and await the inevitable results. Surely we possess enough constructive ability and ideas to be up and doing - to say to our fellow-citizens, " Let us- adopt certain basic facts, and talk matters over impassionately, realising thatour mental atti- tude towards life ischanging, nay, has already changed, and that all desire to reach a better understanding, and co-operatefor the good of ourcountry andfor the benefitofourdepen- dants." Somehow or other, must come pride into every man's heart of his job, so that he shall truly say he is proud to be engaged on a certain job, and knows and respects his employer, and thathisemployer respectshim, for it is notwhat a man earns in wages that counts, but what he gets out of life, and the solution of the problem seems to be in co-opertaion - cooperation in interests, co-operation to promote health, co-operation to reduce thecostof living, co-operation to seethat every one is properly housed, properlyprotectedfromthe effectsof sickness, and, if a man does the fair thing, he should be further protected by co-operation in all that goes to make life worth living. Itwas by such co-operation between officers and men that the Australians saved Amiens, and made their famous land successful night attack on Villers-Bretonneaux - co-operation based on a mutual confidence and a mutual respect. All experience teaches us thesame thing, viz., that only thusare good Jesuits achieved, , e.g, do not- we get better results in dealingwith our children by 'becoming mates with them, cooperating with them rather than by ruling with a rod of iron? Cannot Australians co-operate asreadily at home as in France? Australia imagines she is ahead in industrial conditions, but this is sadly not so. She leads in industrial legislation, which has tended to rather intensify past bitterness because legislation has regarded wages as the end and not the means thereto, just as we and the whole world, too, have regardedmoney as theend, not the means, in the past. We stand behind . the Mother Country in thought and deed. What are they doing in Great Britain - in the midst -of this great war? As a first instalment they are Starting to build two hundred thousand new houses for workers; they have nationalized the milk supply to protect the people's health, and instituted a complete re-organization of the education system,and are devoting some of thebest brains of the country towards meeting the conditions ofthe post-war period. What does man want? Firstly, health; secondly, security of employment, providing he carries out a decent job 'tothe best of his ability thirdly,insurance against being dragged down to the depths financially, if, unfortunately, he should be sick and unable to work; fourthly, decent housing conditions; fifthly, a fair margin between the cost of living and his income; sixthly, good education and a chance in life for his children; and seventhly, reasonable civic and social rights - all of which, summed up, imply a minimum amount of happiness. How shall we endeavour to attain to this position?The answer is by co-operation in all matters - by employers taking a keen interest in , the lives of all their employees - by developing a spirit of civic and industrial citizenship so that a man will guard his job just as he would a public garden running down the centreof a street, by inaugurating co-operative councils, who,with the assistance of the employers, will reduce cost of living to a minimum, and, by means of which education in general economieswill gradually percolate through thewhole communityto its lasting good. Ifignorance on both sides as to the attitude ofmind of the other side canbe eliminated, we can get together and -thereby eliminate the pitiful feeling of distrust and growing hatred thatexists atpresent,there is some hope;but, . withoutit, none atall. The opinion of such a man as **Mr. Gepp** must necessarily carry weightwith those responsiblefor the creation of a better condition among the people of Australia.I have no doubt that the greater part of the discontent and the failureof effective and efficient working in Australia is due to the employers. We have had too often controlling a body of men the class of man who looks uponthem, merely as chattels, employed as cheaply 'as possible for certain work, and out of which he must get as much as he can.That attitude on ' the part . of 'the employer necessarily creates a desire in the workerto get as much as he can and do as little as he can. This is an absolutely suicidal policy on both sides, and must, if persisted in, result in the bankruptcy of Australia. This must be a producing country. We must increase our volume -of production. We must use hands and brains, we must co-operate, we must invite assistance from our kinsmen . overseas for that purpose. But befor-e we invite our kinsmen to come liere, we must prepare for them. We must see that our -house jis . in order before we invite others ito share it with us. We have to face in the ifuture.an enormous load of interest on our debt, and the only -way in which we can 'hope to meet our responsibility in this (regard is by increasing our population. Whilst we continue to set up and extend class hatred and indulge in industrial disputes, and, in a word, whilst we continue to be a divided people, there is no hope for us either from increased production or increased population. Hence I hope that in the very near future we shall have very much improved social and industrial -oonditions in Australia . I shall make -only a passing reference to -the . present lamentable industrial disturbaoice. We have now, after many years' hard fighting, obtained for the settlement of industrial disputes a lawful and impartial tribunal, and I hope that better counsels will prevail, and that the dispute which is now paralyzing Australia will very shortly be settled. Some of the opponents of the peaceful settlement of industrial disputes tell. us that the Arbitration Court is too slow and too costly. I am not quite sure about the time, but I venture to say that the strike now existing will cost more than all the appeals to the Arbitration Court within the next forty-five or fifty years could possibly cost. It is safe to say that there are from 50,000 to 75,000 men out of employment in Australia to-day in consequence of this industrial war. The loss of the wages of these men, and the loss of their wealth production to the country, amounts to a sum which I hesitate to estimate. To say that any system of arbitration to settle a dispute and avoid this kind of turmoil, with its accompaniment of suffering to innocent people as well as to the parties to the dispute, could be more costly than the method now being adopted, is absolutely absurd. There is one matter I wish to bring under the notice of the Government. We are aware that Ministers can do nothing unless they are supported by Parliament and the people of Australia. The cost of government at the present time in this country is lamentably high. It has been published throughout the Commonwealth that the various Governments in this country are costing over £33.,000,000 annually. That seems an enormous sum to be devoted to the government ' of 5,000,000 people. I am not responsible for their accuracy, but I give the following figures, which have been published broadcast throughout Australia: - I realize that this enormous expenditure would probably be very little increased if Australia had a population of 10,000,000. The cost of, governing a small population is out of all proportion to the cost of governing a large population. Australia .will have to consider immediately whether she will take steps to increase her papulation or to decrease the cost of government in this country? In addition to the figures I have given, there is to be considered the cost of maintaining the Governor-General, the Governors of the different States, and the Federal and State Parliaments. Other expenditure will also have to be met. We know that, without taking into consideration the gradual repayment of our war loans, our annual interest bill will be very large. Great as the present expenditure is, we know that we shall have to spend more money on old-age and invalid pensions. I believe that it will be necessary for us to spend more money also on war pensions. I hold that a man who has been disabled in the service of his country ought to receive a reward which will insure to him all the comforts which it is possible for him to obtain. In my opinion, it is wrong to say that a man who has been crippled should try to supplement his pension by earning something, unless he is personally disposed to do so. If a man be blind, or if he should have lost his legs or an arm, it would, no doubt, be a good thing for him to take ; up some industry which would occupy his mind. But, unless he desires to do so, I say that the country owes to him a sufficient sum of money to enable him to secure all the comforts he is capable of enjoying for the rest of what must, at best, be a miserable life. In conclusion, I would make a last appeal that a special effort be put forward in this time of stress. Australia is a new-born nation. We have received the baptism of blood. It remains to be seen whether the country advances or remains stationary. It will be difficult to do the latter. A people must either advance or recede. There is an opportunity to-day for Australia to become great and influential in the world's affairs. Australia has gained fame as the result of the deeds of her soldiers, and as the outcome of their contact with men of other parts of the world. I desire, also, in this regard, to give credit to our brilliant Prime Minister **(Mr. Hughes),** now on his way home. Australia has recently become a known territory, in the world, and here is the occasion for our people to prove their determination and their worthiness to become a great and prosperous nation. If they do not accept the opportunity, I can see nothing ahead for years but a mere existence, when we shall be dragging along beneath an almost unbearable load of debt - practically a failure. If our people will accept their responsibilities individually and collectively as citizens', there is no reason why Australia should not become one of the great nations of the world. Question resolved in the affirmative. {: .page-start } page 11067 {:#debate-16} ### SPECIAL- ADJOURNMENT Motion (by **Senator Russell)** agreed to - >That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until 3 p.m. on Wednesday next. {: .page-start } page 11067 {:#debate-17} ### ADJOURNMENT Postage on Quarantined Soldiers' Letters : Lettergrams - Australian Imperial Force Service Badge - Seamen's Strike. Motion (by **Senator Russell)** proposed - >That the Senate do now adjourn. {: #debate-17-s0 .speaker-JYF} ##### Senator EARLE:
Tasmania .- I have to complain concerning the unexplainable inactivity of the Defence .Department, and of the PostmasterGeneral's Department, in regard to a matter in which both are concerned. ' During the war our soldiers on active service were not called upon to pay postage on their mails. Some time ago, a number of returned men were quarantined, practically at the back door of their Tasmanian homes. Those troops were naturally discontented, and there was very nearly a little mutiny. A citizen's Reception Committee in Hobart, comprising' men and women who have spent their own money and collected from others to provide our boys with a fitting welcome home, took the course, in order to pacify the discontented sol diers, of advising them to spend much of their time in quarantine in writing home. The Committee told the lads that they need not trouble about postage, but that they - the members of the Committee - would pay for the stamps if the Commonwealth authorities saw fit to charge postage. ' The Committee spent more than £30, which was considered a very unfair levy; and its officials asked for a refund. Subsequently additional returning men had to be placed in quarantine, and the matter became more acute. I have repeatedly applied for the extension of. the free postage concession which the troops enjoyed while on the other side of the world, but I have been unable so far to secure a satisfactory answer. A letter to the honorary secretary of the Citizens' Reception Committee, **Mr. T.** S. Nettlefold, from the PostmasterGeneral's Department, reads - >In reply to your communication of the 9th inst., I desire to inform you that if the letters from soldiers in quarantine at Barnes Bay are indorsed with the usual notice that they are on " active service," such letters will be transmitted in the same manner as letters from the Front. But, in the absence of such indorsement, payment of postage is compulsory. It was quite right that, while bur men were at the Front, indorsement of their correspondence should be insisted upon; but here were numbers practically back home again, kept in quarantine because of the influenza epidemic, and so placed that no one but the men themselves could have participated in the advantage of having their letters franked. Why, therefore, does the Department insist that the officers with those troops should be called upon to indorse all letters sent out? The men cannot secure indorsement by their officers; and, since they have no stamps, they are compelled to intrust some one else to attend to the matter. I received a letter from the Defence Department as follows : - >With reference to a letter addressed to you by **Mr. T.** S. Nettlefold, secretary of the Citizens' Reception Committee, Hobart, regarding an amount paid by that Committee for letters and telegrams sent by returning troops, I desire to inform you that I have referred the communication to the Postmaster-General's Department, with a request that that Department communicate with you direct on the subject. Finally I received;another letter from the Postmaster-General' s Department, reading thus : - , With reference to the representations recently made by you to the Department of Defence on thesubject of postage on letters from soldiers inquarantine at Hobart; in connection with whichyou presented acommuniKition from. **Mr. Nettlefold,** honorary secretary of the Citizens' Reception Committee, and a telegram from **Mr. J.G.** Shield, Mayor- of Bbbarfc, I beg to inform, you', that- the Hobart: offisei of this Department nippears to. have misiivterpieted instructions, as free postage in respect of letters from soldiers only applies when, they are outside Australia. The matter is being inquired into, and1 you- will be . further advised as. soon as possible-.. I am tired, of further correspondence upon, a question . so trivial, but which has caused such irritation and annoyance. . {: .speaker-JZ9} ##### Senator O'Keefe: -- Perhaps **Mr. Webster** has been writing poetry, and has Had no».tinie to attend to this -matter. {: .speaker-JYF} ##### Senator EARLE: -- I. am not disposed to -blame **Mr. Webster.** It is a matter forthe officers of his Department, who should take a practical',, common-sense view of the position* and not stick so closely to- regulations. Another complaint which I" have to lodpe against the Postmaster-General's Department- is in respect to lettergrams. On. the 96h July, I brought under the* notice of the Government "the desirability of resorting again to the- practice of despatching lettergrams, entitling the correspondent to- transmit -overnight by telegraph forty words for Is. I represented "that this would be of considerable advantage to the people of Tasmania while, that State was so absolutely isolated in consequence of the present industrial trouble. The Launceston . Chamber of Commerce has also been . agitating, for the same privilege. I did not know at the time that they had- made a, request to -that effect, but I find that the PostmasterGeneral ' has made the following statement in reply to the secretary of that Lody : - >With, reference to -your i telegram . of the 2nd i-st. . relatives to the desired., restoration of lettergram facilities, . so far . as -Tasmania is r njcerned,. I beg to inform you that the l"wprecludes discrimination on the part of the > >Commonwealth Government, and it is not. possible, therefore,, . to have, in. regard . to the transmission of lettergrams, from Tasmania,conditions different from those which are applicabfe' to the rest of the Commonwealth. That might be correct enough in some big question, but, if these were no com: munication by boat with Tasmania, does the Postmaster-General argue that there should be no communication whatever between Tasmania and the mainland simply because the laws of Australia must be uniform? If the transcontinental railway ceased to run,, surely Western Australia would be entitled to> some means'- of communication which' could not necessarily be given to thewhole of Australia. Tasmania must- derpencL on. sea- communication, and the Government might well take a more reasonable view of their duty to that State as regards administration in these little masters. I know they are small things, but they irritate people and cause moretrouble than tlie greater national questions of the day. {: #debate-17-s1 .speaker-JZ9} ##### Senator O'KEEFE:
Tasmania -- **Senator Earle** has referred to a grievance of very long . standing, which Tasmania considers that it rightly ' holds against the Postal Department, in the withdrawal of the facilities for the sending of lettergrams- by business people. About three weeks before **Senator- Earle** approached, the Postal- Department, I laid before **Mr. Oxenham,-** in the . absence of the Postmaster-General, a number of facts, which showed him' the enormous difficulties under which Tasmania wassuffering, through' the withdrawal of these facilities. He was so impressed by thecase I put before him, and the documents from- business people showing that a fortnight, and- sometimes three weeks, elapsesbetween mails, both those delivered inTasmainia and those' delivered here fromTasmania) that he did not turn down' the request that the system of business lettergrams - should be reinstated,' but promised to bring it before the PostmasterGeneral -immediately upon his return from Sydney: **Mr. Webster** came' back'. from Sydney a- day. or two 'later, and ' special consideration < was given to< Tasmania?s request.. But, after "all, we got only the stereotypedreply, that in the interests of economy the system could not be reverted to. Many requests have been put forward by Tasmanian members in both Houses, and by dozens of business people in Tasmania, for better mail facilities, and one reason given . in every reply is that it would not pay to re-establish the system of business lettergrams.An other reason put forward by **Mr. Webster** or his officials' is" that under the Constitution no facility can be granted to one State more than another, no matter how strong or urgent the case. I recognise that there may be a constitutional difficulty in that regard, but I believe I wasright in pointing out that, if these facilities were' reinstated in the case of Tasmania, the other States would not press the Department for them. They would be satisfied that Tasmania was' suffering under unique disadvantages. Senatorde Largie. - You want to get round- the Constitution. {: .speaker-JZ9} ##### Senator O'KEEFE: -- I want to make it possible for the Tasmanian people to get' mails at more 'frequent' intervals 'than three weeks. I received 'letters 'on Saturday, 26th July, dated' and posted in Hobart oft the 2nd July - an interval of twenty-four days.- The other States have railway com'munication" f rom Perth to a point some distance north of Brisbane. IhirthcT'north from' that, the residents have to depend ' upon shipping facilities for their mails; but tbefact remains that Tasmania' is- cut off often for several weeks from mailcommunication. There may- be- some way of getting over the difficulty, and, if there is no other' way,' the re-establishment of business lettergrams all over Australia would only mean that Mr.Webster wouldhave to show a slight loss in his bookkeeping transactions for the Postal Department, and would not be able tocut -such a figure as 'he hopes to cut before the people of Australia- by showing that he is-niaking the Depart-' meiit pay. The- Postal Department is one of the bigactivibies-of Australia, and was, established as much for the convenience ofthepeopleas toshowa ledger profit. I believe that is the view that will be taken by the big majority, of the people, and in extraordinary times like the . present, when m'ail facilities are blocked, in some cases to the ruin of business people, even **Mr. Webster,** although he seems determined to show a large pro fit oh . the year's transactions of jthe Postal Department, would be justified in re-establishing lettergrams for. business purposes. I appeal to the Minister to bring the matter again before his colleagues to see. whether this request cannot be granted, at least until such time as we return to normal shipping and mail conditions. {: #debate-17-s2 .speaker-JZD} ##### Senator FOLL:
Queensland >I have received from the Secretary of the Sydney Branch, of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers' Imperial League, of Australia the following letter regarding the issue of the brass Australian Imperial Force service badge: - {:#subdebate-17-0} #### Dear Sir, *Re* the Issue of Brass A.I.F. Service Badges. I am instructed by my State executive to bring under your notice that the AI.F. brass badge is being- issued to **Senator Pearce's** Pay Corps, which left Australia with him after the. signing of the armistice. Many of these men have returned, and have' been issued with the brass badge after having put in 'throe weeks' war service at Horseferry-road. The distinguishing mark of a- returned soldier is the badge he wears, and it is felt by this'organization that to recognise as returned soldiers meii who were indispensable during the war, but whose services were required for. three weeks' employment, at Horseferry;road, is,. a matter that should be discussed in the House. Returned soldiers consider 1 that men who'left Australia after the armistice had been signed cannot be, and should not be,' confused with the fighting forces, who have received, recognition of their services by the issue of a brass badge from the Commonwealth Government. My committee trust that ' you. will' ventilate this subject in' the Federal Parliament, with. a view of protecting the genuine returned soldier. p.S.- You, of course, know that Y.M.C.A., Red Cross, and War Chest officials haye'.already received this recognition, and even to these' the' returned' sdldie'r has ' the' strongest' obje'etion,' seeing that some of them take full' advantage of the fact, and 'wear the brass badges which have been issued to them. There is a^feeling' among the'members of the league' that the service badge should' be issued 'only to those who saw service' prior to the signing of the armistice. I should like to know the opinion of the Acting Minister for Defence on the question. {: #subdebate-17-0-s0 .speaker-K18} ##### Senator BAKHAP:
Tasmania -- As it appears that by passing this motion the Senate will of its own volition become inarticulate for a week, I must speak, not on the hundred and one grievances that I could legitimately express, but on a matter which is of paramount importance to the nation and to Parliament. The great strike, which has brought about a state of semi-paralysis in all our national activities, is still in full swing. SenatorDe Largie.- Hear, hear! Shake up the Opposition on that question. {: .speaker-K18} ##### Senator BAKHAP: -- I do not care what the attitude of the Opposition is; I am going to make my own attitude clear. That is my concern, and is, to me, second only in importance to my concern for the welfare of the Parliament and the nation. I shall not lightly condone any action on the part of the Administration which abrogates in any particular the right of this Parliament to enforce the law which has been placed upon the statute-book to deal with Inter state industrial disputes, that is, with disputes of a national character. I am not going to condone any action which will result in the setting aside of our Arbitration Court, which has been established under Australian law that is not yet twenty years old. That tribunal is not the offspring of any ancient system of oppression - it is the offspring of a desire to do everything which can be done to promote the welfare of the industrial classes of this country, and to avoid disturbances while disputes are being settled. If, during the period over which it is proposed that the Senate shall adjourn, the Government unwisely sets aside the law, I will not lightly pass over such action. I have assured the Ministry of my support, which will be continued to them in every particular ; but I call upon them to write, a lesson in letters which will be legible to all who flout the law which has been enacted by this Parliament. Anything which may be conceded by Ministers must not abrogate the rights of this National Parliament. I am not one of those who are anxious to secure a triumph over any class of the community, but I am anxious to completely vindicate the institutions which have been established under laws enacted with the assistance of this Chamber. We know that compromise can very easily effect the temporary settlement of a dispute. But we have already provided a system of compromise in connexion with industrial disputes. The. Arbitration Court represents that compromise. If we set aside that institution, we shall get into a position under which we should have to excuse the attitude of a Parliament of nearly 300 years ago had it conceded to King Charles the principle of levying shipmoney. Any compromise which abrogates the sovereign right of the people to give expression to their desire through the Courts which' have been established in the interests of all classes, will not have my support. SenatorRUSSELL (Victoria - Acting Minister for Defence) [10.12].- I express my regret for the delay which has occurred in. connexion with the correspondence referred to by **Senator Earle.** No doubt the confusion has arisen by reason of the quarantine regulations which are in existence to-day. However, I will give the matter my personal attention to-morrow, with a view to locating who is responsible for the delay. It seems to me that a returned soldier, should be the complete charge of the Government until he is landed at his home in Australia. Upon the question of lettergrams, I am not sufficiently informed to warrant me in making any statement, but I will have copies of the speeches of both honorable senators forwarded to the Postal Department in an endeavour to achieve finality on the matter. And now I want to thank **Senator Bakhap** for his great confidence in the Government, and for his affirmation that he will not condone offences which have not been committed. {: .speaker-K18} ##### Senator Bakhap: -To some extent they have been committed already. SenatorRUSSELL. - My honorable friend is' both wrong and unfair. The Government possess just as good a balance as does the average member of this Parliament. The Government have done their duty,but they do not propose, at the request of every member of Parliament, to go round with a bludgeon in their hands. If it be necessary to condone our offences, **Senator Bakhap** will understand that he possesses a free hand. But until there has been some indication that we have committed offences- {: .speaker-K18} ##### Senator Bakhap: -- It is already indicated. SenatorRUSSELL. - The Government have not indicated it. I' will be quite prepared to accept any just punishment when the Government have committed an offence. The situation is difficult enough without forty men endeavouring to do a job which only one man can do properly - I refer to the Acting Prime Minister. In regard to the badges mentioned by **Senator Foll,** I fear that some mistake has arisen. The honorable senator. has stated that the pay clerks who went Home with **Senator Pearce** - I do not know why they are always associated with **Senator Pearce** - have received badges. There is evidentlysome mistake in regard to this matter; though nobody has a greater appreciation of the work done by these pay clerks than I have. They have devised a system which enables us to pay demobilized soldiers more rapidly than any other country in the world. Most of the men in that Pay Corps are returned soldiers. I shall make inquiries in regard to the distribution of the badges, but before the honorable senator acouses the Department of giving badges to men who have not been to the Front he should be sure that hischargeis well founded. Having paid this tribute to the splendid work done by the Pay Corps, I promise to look into the matter. Question resolved in the affirmative. Senate adjourned at 10.18 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 30 July 1919, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1919/19190730_SENATE_7_88/>.

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Senate30 July 1919

H.M.A.S. AUSTRALIA

Senator MILLEN:Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

QUESTION

BLOW-FLY PEST

Senator FOLL:QUEENSLAND

Senator MILLEN:NAT

QUESTION

WENTWORTH PARK WOOL STORES

Senator MILLEN:NAT

QUESTION

SEAMEN’S. STRIKE

Senator MULCAHY:TASMANIA · PROT; NAT from 1919

Senator MILLEN:NAT

PAPERS

DEFENCE FORCE

Senator RUSSELL:Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

QUESTION

MELBOURNE METROPOLITAN GAS COMPANY

Senator NEEDHAM:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator MILLEN:NAT

QUESTION

PRISONERS

Senator NEEDHAM:for Senator Grant

Senator RUSSELL:NAT

Senator FOLL:

Senator RUSSELL:

MILITARY STORES

Distribution of Surplus

Senator O’KEEFE:TASMANIA

Senator RUSSELL:NAT

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Senator BARNES:VICTORIA

Senator RUSSELL:NAT

QUESTION

MILITARY TRAINEES

Senator McDOUGALL:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator RUSSELL:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH AUDIT OFFICE INSPECTOR, PERTH

Senator NEEDHAM:

Senator MILLEN:NAT

TRADE MARKS BILL

QUESTION

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE

Senator GIVENS:QUEENSLAND

Senator PRATTEN:New South Wales

Senator DE LARGIE:WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

LIGHTHOUSES BILL

Senator RUSSELL:Acting Minister of Defence and Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator Senior:

Senator RUSSELL:

QUESTION

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Senator FAIRBAIRN:Victoria

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator Mulcahy:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator Reid:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator Colonel Rowell:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator Earle:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator Earle:

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator Earle:

Senator O’Keefe:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator Russell:

Senator FAIRBAIRN:

Senator de Largie:

Senate
30 July 1919

Senator MILLEN:
Minister for Repatriation · NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Senator FOLL:
QUEENSLAND

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator MULCAHY:
TASMANIA · PROT; NAT from 1919

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator RUSSELL:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · NAT

Senator NEEDHAM:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator NEEDHAM:
for Senator Grant

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

Senator O’KEEFE:
TASMANIA

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

Senator BARNES:
VICTORIA

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

Senator McDOUGALL:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator RUSSELL:
NAT

Senator MILLEN:
NAT

Senator GIVENS:
QUEENSLAND

Senator PRATTEN:
New South Wales

Senator DE LARGIE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Senator RUSSELL:
Acting Minister of Defence and Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · NAT

Senator FAIRBAIRN:
Victoria