Senate
8 April 1908

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- EASTER ADJOURNMENT
QUESTION
- POST OFFICE: STOCKWELL
QUESTION
- TRUST FUNDS
QUESTION
- SYDNEY MAIL
QUESTION
- INDIAN REMOUNTS
PAPERS
NAVIGATION BILL
QUESTION
- SURTAX ON SUGAR
QUESTION
- MAJOR DOVE
QUESTION
- CARTRIDGE BLANKS
PRINTING COMMITTEE
QUESTION
- PRIVILEGE : SELECT COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE
APPROPRIATION BILL 1907-8
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT
ADJOURNMENT

The President took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers;

PETITION.

Senator VARDON presented a petition from 101 producers in South Australia praying the Senate to reduce the standard of flash of kerosene oil to 73 deg. Fahreneit.

Petition received and read.

Senator VARDON (South Australia) [2.32]. -Asthe probabilityis that the matter will be again’ before the Senate - in which event I desire to take action - I move -

That the petition be printed.

Senator CHATAWAY (Queensland) [2.33]. - Whenever it was proposed to print any document of this sort, relating to the Tariff, I opposed the proposal, and, therefore, I intend to vote against this motion.

The PRESIDENT. - According to standing order 92 -

No senator shall move that a petition be . printed unless he intends to take action upon it and informs the Senate thereof.

I understood the honorable senator to state that he intended to take action upon the petition when the matter again came before the Senate.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [2.34]. - I desire to point out that a short time ago I made a similar statement, and that the Senate-

The PRESIDENT.- Order. I point out to the honorable senator that at the present time that matter is not open to discussion. It is not a question as to whether the ruling on that occasion was correct or not.

Senator Colonel NEILD.-Iam not challenging the ruling.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

SHIPS’ STORES.

Senator PULSFORD. - I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, the following questions -

What is the total amount of the revenue collected from ships’ stores from 8th October, 1901, to the end of 1907?
Out of such total what amounts have been credited to the respective States- State by State?

Senator BEST. - The honorable senator was good enough to give me (notice’ of his intention to ask these questions, and therefore I am in a position to say that the replies thereto are as follow -

£123,46011s10d.
New South Wales, £38,813 12s. ad.; Vic toria, £23,976 8s.* rod. ; Queensland, £10,859 6s.1d.; South Australia, £21,081 19s.9d. ; Western Australia, £24,681 7s.; Tasmania, £4,047 18s. Total, £123,46011s10d.

NAVAL AGREEMENT : EXCHANGE.

Senator PULSFORD.- Referring to the table given on page 54 of the Budget papers, I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, whether the words at the head thereof, “ Including Exchange,” mean that any charge for exchange is deducted from the £200,000 paid to the Imperial Government under the Naval Agreement, and, if so, how much ?

Senator BEST. - No exchange is deducted.

– I will not say that I should not like to have the Estimates and, if possible; the Additional Estimates put through by to-morrow night. I hope to receive the Capital Site Bill on Friday next, but, perhaps, I may be able to make a more definite announcement to morrow.

page 10252

QUESTION

POST OFFICE: STOCKWELL

Senator STORY:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I desire to ask the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral, without notice, some questions arising out of the following complaint from Stockwell, which appeared in the South Australian Advertiser of Saturday, last -

The local post-office has again had a change of officer. Miss Carter has resigned from the service, and her place is being filled temporarily by Miss Dunstan. It is proposed to make this a telephone office and connect it with Nuriootpa, whence messages will be transmitted. As a result of the adoption of a system of making the small country townships show a - credit balance every year, the residents are being subjected to irritating inconveniences. Telegrams must wait till they are called lor” &c. Members of the Commonwealth Partial ment talk about living wages and minimum salaries to boys and labourers, and yet they allow post-offices in the country to be taken at £40 a year. The lady who resigned did the work for £50, and presumably the next one will only get £30. Steps are being taken to call a public meeting to protest against this outrageous policy.

Will the Minister cause inquiries to be made as to whether those statements are correct, and, if so, does he consider it desirable to. attempt to effect some improvement ?

Senator KEATING:
Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

– My attention has not previously been directed to the paragraph in question, but if the honorable senator will be good enough to supply me with a copy of it, I shall have inquiries made’, and furnish him with the result of them.

page 10252

QUESTION

TRUST FUNDS

Senator PULSFORD:
NEW SOUTH WALES

– Referring to page . 115 of the Budget papers, I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, the following questions -

Where are the Trust moneys named therein deposited ?
Are they earning interest?
If so, what?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable senator’s questions are as. follow -

They form part of the Public Account, and are deposited in the ordinary banks. 2 and 3. ,£8,000 earns interest at si per cent., £10,000 earns interest at 3 per cent., and £25,000 earns interest at 4 per cent.

page 10252

QUESTION

SYDNEY MAIL

Senator KEATING:
Protectionist

– This is the first time that I have heard of the matter. I shall certainly deem it my duty to make immediate inquiries, and, possibly, if the matter is mentioned at a later hour, I may be able to give the honorable senator the information which he desires.

page 10253

QUESTION

INDIAN REMOUNTS

Senator MILLEN:

– May I ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, whether he is yet in receipt of information relating to communications between the Commonwealth Government and the Indian Government on the subject of remounts?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– No reply has yetbeen received from the Indian Government in answer to our cable.

page 10253

PAPERS

MINISTERS laid upon the table the fol lowing papers : -

Statutory Rules1908, No. 35. - In the High Court of Australia-. - Rules of Court.

Additional Estimates of Expenditure and Additional Estimates of Expenditure for Additions, New Works, Buildings’, &c, for the year ending 30th June, t1908

Copy of a Report from the Commissioner for Lands, Papua, for the month of February.

Notification respecting Right of Carriage Way, Battery Site, Mount Nelson, Tasmania.

page 10253

NAVIGATION BILL

Senator MACFARLANE:
TASMANIA

asked the Vice-

President of the Executive Council, upon notice -

Will he lay on the table of the Senate a copy of the reply of the Government to the despatches from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, dated November and December last, regarding the Navigation Bill, which the Government stated on the 24th March was in course of preparation?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– The reply has not yet been sent.

page 10253

QUESTION

SURTAX ON SUGAR

Senator CHATAWAY:
QUEENSLAND

asked the VicePresident of the Executive Council, upon notice -

In view of the statement by the Prime Minister of Natal that his Government proposes to bring up the question of surtax on sugar from Australia at the Customs Conference in Pretoria in April, has the Government taken steps to see that the Australian views on the matter are placed fully before the Conference in answer to Natal ?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– The answer to the honorable senator’s question is as follows -

Yes; the statement of the case in the Prime Minister’s letter of 28th February (copy, of which has already been laid upon the table of the Senate), has been followed up by a cablegram reading - “ Urge that question of surtax on Australian sugar be reconsidered at Customs

Conference. Not bounty fed within meaning Sugar Convention. Bounty ‘paid to individualfarmers who produce cane with white labour and not to manufacturers of sugar. See third paragraph Prime Minister’s letter 28th February to Premiers South African States.”

I may add that this cable was sent to the High Commissioner.

Senator Chataway:

– What was the date?

Senator BEST:

– I have not the date, but I will ascertain.

page 10253

QUESTION

MAJOR DOVE

Referring to the return recently laid on the table of the Senate, relating to cadet staff officers -

Why was there omitted from the statement of the length and character of the military services of Major Dove, adjutant of the New South Wales cadet Staff, the following : - (a) 3 years’ service in Scottish Rifles, private tocolour-serge’ant ; (i) 2 2-12 years in the Mounted Rifles, trooper to sergeant ?

In the Remarks column, why was it stated regarding the major and lieutenant that “ Both these officers’ duties’ are similar,” if it is a matter of common report and knowledge that this is not so?

Is it not a fact that a senior officer is charged with higher responsibility, and’ exercises higher authority, than, thosejunior to him?

Is it not a fact that the State Commandant and the Chief Staff Office, New South Wales, look to Major Dove, and hold him responsible for all matters arising in the local cadet force, and in the staff of same?

Is it not a fact that the salary paid by the Commonwealth to Major Dove, as adjutant, is no higher than that previously paid to the drill sergeantmajor attached to the corps?

Is not the salary paid to Major Dove materially less than that stipulated in the Financial Regulations as the pay attaching to officers of equal rank on the Administrative and Instructional Staff of the Commonwealth Military Service?

The records at head-quarters only give the commissioned service of Brevet-Maior Dove, D.S.O.

Both of these officers belong to the Instructional Staff of the Cadets, and their duties are set forth in paragraph 53 of the Standing Orders for the Commonwealth Military Forces, which reads -

Officers of the Instructional Staff are attached to brigades and corps for imparting instruction in drill, tactics, discipline, organization, and administration. They are under the command of the Brigadiers to whose brigade they ‘ are attached. They will assist the Brigadiers and Commanding Officers in the administrative duties connected with their commands. They are placed at the disposal of the Brigadiers and Commanding Officers of the various brigades, regiments, and corps, as instructors in the broadest sense of the term. It will be their special duty to instruct (and assist) the Brigade Majors and Adjutants of regiment’s in their administrative, clerical, and other duties,

Staff officers will personally impart practical and theoretical instruction to officers of the units to which they belong. They will exercise constant supervision over warrant and noncommissioned officers of the Instructional Staff.

Officers of the Instructional Staff are not to be considered as available for District Staff duty, except under very special circumstances, and Brigadiers and Commanding Officers will invariably be consulted beforehand should the Staff Officers be required for duty away from the units to which they are attached.

There is no knowledge at head-quarters that any departure has been made from this.

From a general point of view, yes; but similar duties are allotted to all officers of the Instructional Staff, irrespective of rank (vide standing order above quoted).

There is a Commanding Officer of Cadets in New South Wales who alone is responsible to the Commandant for all matters “ arising in the local cadet force, and in the staff of same.”

No. From a communication received from the District Commandant, New South Wales, the State Education Department employed three non-commissioned officers - instructors - viz. : - 1 at a salary of£225 per annum. 2 at a salary of£200 per annum.

Brevet-Major Dove received £225 per annum as Adjutant of Cadets under the Education Department of New South Wales. On appointment to the Commonwealth fie received£250 per annum, and provision is made for payment to him at the rate of , £275 per annum from 1st May next.

Brevet-Major Dove’s substantive rank is that of captain, and the minimum salary allotted to a captain of the Instructional Staff is £375 per annum ; but when the officers who were previously employed by State Governments were appointed to the Cadet Administrative and Instructional Staff in 1906, the arrangement (fully understood by the officers concerned), was that (hey should receive the same salary as that paid by the State Governments, or not less than£250 per annum, i.e., the minimum pay of a lieutenant on ‘the Administrative and Instructional Staff, with increments in accordance with regulations. All first appointments to the Administrative and Instructional Staff of the Commonwealth are to the rank of lieutenant, but as Brevet-Major Dove was permanently employed under the State Education Department of New South Wales he was permitted to retain the higher rank. As stated in (5) Brevet-Major Dove has received£25 per annum more than previously paid by the State Government, and from1st May, 1908, the increase will be £50 per annum.

Wales, each receive salaries of£400 per annum; whilst in one State the officer who, according to the return, has qualified for no military rank whatever, is discharging these duties?

page 10255

QUESTION

CARTRIDGE BLANKS

Senator PEARCE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister re presenting the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

Is it not a fact that the manufacture of cartridge “blanks” is not entirely or mainly’ one of chemical science, but is one largely of mechanical science ?
Will the Minister consider the advisability of getting reports on the feasibility and advisability of carrying on the manufacture of cartridge “blanks” conjointly with the coinage of silver from mechanical engineers of high repute in addition to that being supplied by Mr.Hake, the chemical adviser to the Defence Department?

Senator KEATING:
Protectionist

– In reply to the honorable senator -

Physics, chemistry, and mechanics are in cluded in the question.
Yes.

page 10255

PRINTING COMMITTEE

Motion (by Senator Henderson) agreed to-

That the report from the Printing Committee presented to the Senate on 2nd April,1908, be adopted.

page 10255

QUESTION

PRIVILEGE : SELECT COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE

The PRESIDENT reported the receipt of the following message from the House of Representatives : -

Mr. President,

The House of Representatives transmits to the Senate the following resolutions, which were this day agreed to by the House ofRepresentaitives : -

That the Select Committee of this House, appointed to inquire into and report upon procedure in cases of breach of privilege, be empowered, jointly with the Select Committee similarly appointed by the Senate, to inquire into and report upon any recent allegations reflecting upon Parliament or . any of the members thereof, and for such purposes to exercise all such powers as have been conferred by this House.
That a message be sent to the Senate asking it to similarly empower the Committee appointed by it so as to enable it to act jointly in these inquiries with the Committee of this House.

The House of Representatives requests the Senate to empower the Committee accordingly.

W. Holder,

Speaker

House of Representatives,

Melbourne, 2nd April,1908

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

– Under the terms of the Standing Orders, and particularly in view of the fact that the matter referred to in the message fro.m the House of Representatives has already been discussed by the Senate, and that what I propose to do in connexion with it will be in all probability regarded as purely formal, I ask that, by leave, the message may be dealt with at once.

Leave granted.

Senator BEST:

– I move-

That the Select Committee of the Senate appointed to inquire into and report upon procedure in cases of breach of privilege be empowered, jointly with the Select Committee similarly appointed by the House of Representatives, to inquire into and report upon any recent allegations reflecting upon Parliament or any of the members thereof, and for such purposes to exercise all such powers as have been conferred by this Senate.
That a message be sent to the House of Representatives conveying the above resolution.

This matter was very fully dealt with, as honorablesenators are aware, when the Select Committee was appointed. Representations were subsequently made elsewhere, and it was decided by the Government, in pursuance of the strongly expressed wish of honorable members of both Chambers, that reflections which have recently been made upon members of Parliament, and upon the honour of Parliament, should receive the attention of the Committee which has been appointed. A resolution was thereupon passed in another place. The position now is, therefore, that the House of Representatives section of the Joint Committee have been empowered to make these further inquiries. Now it is asked that the Senate members of the Committee shall likewise be empowered to inquire into the matters referred, to inthe terms of the motion.

Senator Givens:

– Can the Committee sit when the session is ended?

Senator Story:

– No.

Senator Givens:

– Then will the Government make a Royal Commission of it ?

Senator BEST:

– It is to be hoped that the Committee will make a considerable advance with their work before the session closes ; but in any case that question is not now under consideration.

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

– I rather regret that, as the result of the action taken elsewhere, two matters that appear entirely distinct are likely _ to become confused. In saying that, I think it is very probable, judging from the tone of the debate the other day, that in my views I am in a minority in this Chamber, but it would have been far better to kaye the Parliamentary Committee to make its inquiry, and devise means of dealing with cases of this kind, rather than to ask a section of those against whom an allegation has been made to practically conduct an inquiry into that allegation. I wish to refer to the major argument addressed to you, sir, in the debate of last week - that the practice of bringing offenders, or alleged offenders, before Parliament was open, not merely to the charge that it had proved useless, but that Parliament was in the position of prosecutor and judge in its own case. The Committee will be, to a great extent, in exactly the same position. Instead of Parliament as a whole making the in:quiry and calling the offenders before it, it delegates that task to a section of its members.

Senator Findley:

– The honorable senator is presupposing that these people cannot prove the charge. How can they be offenders if they can prove what they have stated ?

Senator MILLEN:

– My main point is that where an accusation is levelled against Parliament, Parliament is unfitted to inquire into it. Perhaps I am wrong in saying that it is unfitted, but the impression outside would always be that Parliament was necessarily prejudiced in its own favour. I had hoped that the Committee would have thrust upon it simply the responsibility of devising means by which in any cases such as those now under review, Parliament could have taken action outside of itself. I do not propose to suggest the idea that is in my mind, but at any rate machinery could have been devised under which Parliament, instead of being in the position of - a Judge could, through some properly-appointed officer, have stood in the . position of complainant, leaving to those outside parliamentary circles to determine whether the statements made were libellous or justified in the public interest. I suppose, however, judging from the previous debate, that I am in a minority in the matter, and I can only express my regret that the action taken in the Senate, after discussion and deliberation, is likely to be reversed by the course adopted elsewhere, and now brought forward for our acceptance.

Senator Colonel NEILD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– However, the motion is before honorable senators in accordance with the motion passed in another place, and it is desired that theinquiry by the

Committee should be extended in the terms therein set out.

Question put. The Senate divided.

AYES: 13

NOES: 12

Majority … … 1

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

page 10260

APPROPRIATION BILL 1907-8

Bill received from the House of Representatives.

Motion (by Senator Best) agreed to -

That so much of the Standing Orders be suspended as would prevent the Appropriation Bill being passed through all its stages without delay.

Motion (by Senator Best) proposed -

That this Bill be now read a first time.

The PRESIDENT:

– I do not happen to have particulars of the miscellaneous revenue at hand. It was £54,530 during

Senator BEST:

– I can hardly expect Senator St. Ledger to appreciate them.

Senator St Ledger:

– What are all their complaints about?

Senator BEST:

– Perhaps it would be only fair that at this juncture I should state in regard to the Post and Telegraph, Department what has been done, and what is contemplated by the sub-Committee appointed by the Cabinet in order that honorable senators may be given an outline of the scope oftheir inquiry into the working of the Department. I have this information on the subject to submit to the Senate. It is proposed that the Committee shall inquire into -

The policy of decentralization, and the degree to which it can be extended with advantage.
Staffing of the Department. The relationship of the Department and its officers.
The present pressing needs of the Department in regard to expenditure.
The difficulties of the Department in re gard to the carrying out of its public works, including minor alterations to buildings, &c.
The present practice and future policy of the Department in connexion with applications for the extension of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic services in country districts, and particularly in remote and sparsely populated parts of the Commonwealth.
The future management and financing of the Department.

Inquiries are being made of ex-officers of the Department who have occupied responsible positions. Suggestions by representative public men upon matters withinthe scope of the inquiry will receive consideration.

Reports are being obtained from the DeputyPostmastersGeneral in each State.

Complaints made by members of the Federal Parliament during the last 12 months will be investigated and classified.

The abnormal growth of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic business in New South Wales during the last twelve months will demand a thorough investigation by the Committee in that State as to the best methods to provide for its being efficiently met, and, where circumstances warrant, other States will be visited

Commonwealth would be making a most fatal mistake if, in order -to be generous to the States, it was unjust to itself. One thing which I fear above all others, judging from the many public utterances which have come under my notice, is the possibility of the Federation being made the great taxing machine of Australia, whilst the States stand forward as a kind of bountiful Providence distributing in various kinds of concessions to the people the amounts which the Commonwealth has raised. I want to see that terminated.

Senator Mulcahy:

– That must be, so long as the Commonwealth controls the Customs.

Senator MILLEN:

– I am not complaining of the amounts which we are paying the States to-day. I only fear that a demand may be made not merely for the payment which has existed in the past, but even for an enlarged one. Even to-day, whilst the Commonwealth is pointed to as the big taxing machine, my own State has received enormous sums, has been enabled to show great surpluses, and make great concessions to the people, with the result that must inevitably follow wherever you have one body raising the money and another spending it. The object I have in view is to bring about as soon and as completely as possible an absolute divorce between Federal and State finance. It is quite immaterial to me whether that is done by means of the transfer of State debts or the payment of a fixed sum. The main thing is to arrive at a fair adjustment between the two bodies as to the proportion of Customs revenue which they shall receive, and a distinct agreement which, from the date on which it is arrived at, will leave the Commonwealth free to work out its own destiny unhampered by any consideration of State needs or State necessities.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– Whilst we are all anxious to assist the Government to get on with the work of the country by passing, the Estimates, there are some figures which I have extracted from the Budget speech and from other financial papers that I feel it my duty to lay before the Chamber, and, through it, before the public. These figures show the enormous increase of expenditure on the various Departments between the years 1901-2 and 1906-7. I admit that they are capable of explanation, and that possibly some explanation can be given to account for what certainly appears to be an enormous increase, but if there is anything that requires a very clear explanation, it is this drift of !the Commonwealth finances. The cost of the various Departments in detail was as follows -

Senator Pearce:

– The Senate has its remedy, if it cares to take advantage of it. On the first reading of the first Supply

– I leave this matter with the protest which I have felt that it has always been incumbent upon the representatives of the States other than

Queensland to offer. A reference was made by the Vice-President of the Executive Council to surplus revenue, and I wish only to say with respect to that that I think the honorable senator was mistaken in what he said. I do hope that he will take the matter into consideration, and will put it to his colleagues that the Federal Parliament would be committing an act of gross political immorality if it withheld from the States any portion of the surplus revenue unless the money had been required for actual expenditure incurred. Certainly, to put it into a trust fund would only be another way of putting it into some one else’s pocket.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [7.45]. - Having a little regard for the Standing Orders, sir, I suggest that a quorum should be formed. [Quorum fcrmed.] During the discussions on Supply Bills, a large number of grievances have been trotted out, and it does not seem to me that any good purpose would be served by trotting them again out on the present occasion. I merely wish to indicate to Ministers my desire, when in Committee, to get some definite and satisfactory information on certain matters which I have brought before the Chamber, namely, the salaries of two officers in the Defence Force, and the pay of two sergeants in the same force. I hope that my honorable friends opposite will he in a position to reasonably satisfy me on those points when we reach the items in Committee.

Senator Keating:

– The honorable senator hrought this matter before me so specifically in connexion with the last Supply Bill that I have here an officer from whom I think I can get all the information which he desires.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– I thank my honorable and learned friend.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clauses 1 to 3, and First Schedule, agreed to.

Second Schedule.

The Parliament - Clerk of the Parliaments : Usher of the Black Rod.

Divisions 1 to 10 (The Parliament), proposed vote, £30,481.

Senator MULCAHY:
Tasmania

– I notice that our respected Clerk has been absent from his post for a good while. I desire to know whether there is any prospect of his return to duty, or whether any arrangement is contemplated with regard to the appointment of a successor to him.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel GOULD (New South Wales) [7.53]. - Unfortunately, owing to his continued illness, it became necessary to give to the Clerk of the Parliaments leave of absence for a further period of six months, and at its expiration he will resign his position. He has been a very old and faithful public servant, and it was felt that the least that we could do would be to treat him withevery possible consideration.

Honorable Senators. - Hear, hear.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

.- The contemplated retirement of the Clerk of the Parliaments affords us an excellent opportunity - one which may not recur for many years - -to remove from the list of our officers what” I consider is an excrescence. It is more than probable, at any rate, I hope, that upon Mr. Blackmore’s retirement the Clerk Assistant will be appointed to the position of Clerk, and that the gentleman who formerly occupied the position of Usher of the Black Rod will be advanced to the position of Assistant Clerk. That, in my opinion, is all very right and proper, but then it will create a vacancy in the office of Usher of the Black Rod, which I suppose the President may want to fill by the transfer of the Clerk of Papers or the Accountant. Here is an opportunity, without doing an injustice to any one, to get rid of an office which is nothing less than a useless excrescence. It is ridiculous to see a gentleman - sometimes a fine looking gentleman - dressed in a tail coat, knee breeches, and buckle shoes, carrying a black10d before him.

Senator de Largie:

– But he does not carry a black rod.

Senator Best:

– He acts in the capacity of Clerk of Select Committees.

Senator GIVENS:

– Let us call the officer by that title, and not “ Usher of the Black Rod.” The Ministry should take this opportunity of trying to get rid of what has been a useless encumbrance. What do we want with an Usher of the Black Rod ? We are now sensible people, and are not like a number of savages going in for useless ceremonial, as was done in the old feudal times. I hope that the Government will endeavour to accomplish a very necessary and desirable reform which must commend itself to the common sense of any one who has ever given thought to the question.

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

– A very favorable opportunity is provided for carrying out the idea which has been expressed by Senator Givens. No doubt the opening and closing of Parliament must be attended with some ceremony ; but we might very well change the title of this office, even if we do not change the duties of the officer. Probably we could hot do very well without an usher on ceremonial occasions, here, but there is no reason why the officer should not be calledmerely the usher. The major portion of his work lies in connexion with the position of Clerk of Select Committees. If he were designated Clerk of Select Committees and Usher it. would be a more sensible designationthan is that of Usher of the Black Rod. . I trust that the leader of the Senate will state what is intended to be done. It is just as well that we should be told at once whether a sensible name is to be applied to our usher or whether a meaningless term is to be continued.

Senator Keating:

– Probably there are very few officers whose time is more constantly occupied.

Senator Givens:

– Certainly not in carrying the black rod.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– I have no complaint to urge against the office, but I have astrong objection to the. present designation, of its occupant.

Senator St Ledger:

– Is not the honorable senator pursuing a shadow ?

Senator DE LARGIE:

– No. It is only proper that the designations of our officers should be brought into harmony with the duties’ which they have to discharge. In my opinion, “ Usher of the Black Rod “ is a ridiculousdesignation, and it can be revised with much credit to. ‘ourselves.

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

– Honorable senators who have addressed themselves to this subject;have indicated very clearly that it is not to the occupant of the office of Usher of the Black Rod that they are making any objection. He is an officer who commends -himself to our confidence, and we know that he’ does his duty.

Senator Mulcahy:

– We arenot discussing the man.

Senator BEST:

– I am glad that that is quiteclear: The position is that- he has been appointed to the office of Usher of the Black Rod and Clerk of Select Committees. It is in connexion with that office that his salary will’ be paid up to the 30th of June next. If we were to strike out the words “of the Black Rod,” and simply describe him as “ Usher and Clerk of Select Committees,” it might involve a fresh appointment. That is a point as to which I express no definite opinion without an opportunity of looking into it more fully. But certainly on the present Estimates we cannot hope to make any alteration. We are entitled to hear the views of honorable senators in relation to the office, and Ministers will have pleasure in consulting with the President in connexion with the matter when the next Estimates are being framed.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel GOULD (New South Wales) [8.1]. - I should like to say a few words to ease the minds of my honorable friends. There is a certain amount of advantage in retaining the title “Usher of the Black Rod,” inasmuch as it is a well-known parliamentary office, just as is that of “ Sergeant at Arms,” in the other House. The title conveys some idea of the work performed by the officer. Of course, it is quite possible that if the officer himself had an opportunity of expressing his opinion, he might feel rather aggrieved that we. do not provide him with a black rod. He does hot possess that insignia of office. But there are certain duties which attach to the office.

Senator de Largie:

– Could they not be carried out just as well if we called the officer by another title?

Senator Lt Colonel GOULD:

– They could be carried out just as well if we gave him no title at all, and if he were simply designated by his own patronymic. It has beensuggested that we might call him simply “ The Usher.” Well, there might be half-a-dozen ushers. We require the title “Usher of the Black Rod “ to indicate certain specific duties that have tobe performed by that official. It has to be remembered that he acts as Clerk of Select Committees and that the duties pertaining thereto absorb a large amount of his time. I dare say that honorablesenators generally like to see the smiling face of the usher in the chamber. I do not think that we have any reason to change’ the name of the office.

Senator STEWART:
Queensland

.- There has been very little business in this discussion. I did not hear the opening speech of Senator Givens, but if it were as fully charged wtih milk and water as was that of Senator de Largie; he might as well have not made it. My objection is not to the name “ Usher of the Black Rod.” I consider that the office is a superfluity. I think that we are paying £550 per annum in re-, turn for very little service rendered. Of course, some useful work is done. No one doubts that. But I put it to honorable senators whether we want an officer - I do not care what he is called - to perform the duties which usually fall to the lot of the Usher of the Black Rod, and to pay him £550per annum for performing them? In the Queensland Parliament there are seventy-two members in the Legislative Assembly. There the Clerk Assistant is Usher of the Black Rod. There are only thirty-six members of the Seriate to keep in order. In my opinion, the Clerk Assistant might very well be appointed Usherof the Black Rod, in addition to holding his present office. I think that the £550. is absolutely wasted.

Senator de Largie:

– What is the honorable senator’sproposal ?

Senator STEWART:

– I propose that the Clerk Assistant should perform the duties of the Usher of the Black Rod in addition to his present duties, and that we should abolish the fifth officer in the list - Usher of the Black Rod, Clerk of Select Committees, and Secretary of the Joint House Committee. With regard to Select. Committees, a few are appointed in some sessions. In other sessions we have none. I have no doubt that the duties of Secretary of the Joint House Committee are important. But are we warranted in paying an officer £550 a year to perform them ? Are we warranted in paying such a salary in the first place for an officer who renders no useful service to thisChamber ? I do not say that with any idea of disrespect to the officer himself. I am on perfectly friendly terms with him. But I cannot permit anything of that kind to come between me and my public duty. I see an officer here for whom there is no earthly use under the sun. We might just as well throw the money we are paying him into the Yarra forany benefit that the Commonwealth receives from his services. While the old state of things existed, while Mr. Blackmore was Clerk of the Parliaments, Mr. Bovdell, Clerk Assistant, and Mr. Upward, Usher of the Black Rod, I did not think it desirableto press’ the Government upon the matter. Butnow that an opporr tunity has occurred of dealing effectively with it, I think that the. Government ought to realize what their duty is. I wish to take the sense of the Committee upon the question. I therefore move -

That the House of Representatives berequested to reduce the item Usher of the Black Rod, Clerk of Select Committees, and Secretary of the Joint House Committee,£550,” by

£1.

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

– I really thought, from the opening remarks of Senator Stewart , that something tremendous was to be hurled at us. He has said that there was “ no business “ in the remarks which I made. The mountain has been” inlabour and has brought forth a ridiculous mouse. The “ business “ of Senator Stewart’s remarks consists in aproposal to reduce the voteby £1.

Senator Givens:

– The carrying of the request would have a very important bearing.

Senator DE LARGIE:

– I understand that the honorable senator, who got up with the air of a man about to do something wonderful, would submit something more effective. It was hardly worth his while to occupy so much time in moving his request.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel GOULD (New South Wales) [8. 11]. - I should not like honorable senators to labour under a misapprehension with regard to the duties devolving upon the officer in question. Senator’ Stewart is absolutely mistaken in supposing that all that he has to do is to sit in this chamber and occasionally to perform certain ceremonial functions. A number of important duties devolve upon him.

Senator Stewart:

– No duties that cannot be performed by an officer at a much lower salary.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel GOULD. - The Usher has not only to be in attendance while the Senate is sitting, but he has also to act as Secretary to Select Committees. Then, again, he is Secretary of the Joint House Committee.

Senator Mulcahy:

– He receives £50 extra for those duties.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel GOULD. - The duties involve a considerable amount of work. If honorable senators turn to page 8 of the Schedule they will find that the officer has the control of the refreshment room, of the electric lighting, Queen’s Hall, Parliamentary Gardens, Engineer, ‘ Assistant Engineer, and Lift Attendant. It is true that he receives £50 extra for being Secretary of the Joint House Committee. But I ask honorable senators to realize that this officer has office duties to discharge which necessitate his constant attention. The whole of his time is occupied. It is necessary to have an

Officer for these purposes. The extra £50 paid to him as Secretary of the Joint House Committee is no inordinate remuneration for the duties that devolve upon him. He acts as Accountant in connexion with the Other functions that I have enumerated, and has to keep an eye on other officers and to see that there is no undue expenditure. I should also like honorable senators to realize that while Mr. Blackmore has been away on leave of absence it lias been necessary to appoint a temporary officer. But the other officers have had increased duties thrown upon them, and have had to give up a great deal more of their time to their work. So far as my knowledge and experience go, I can say that the office in question could not be abolished without imposing upon the other officers a greater amount of work than is fair and1 reasonable. I am quite sure ‘that the honorable senator who has moved the request has no idea of anything like that being desirable.

Senator STEWART:
Queensland

– Let us take the first statement of the honorable senator who has just resumed his seat, with regard to the duties of the Usher of the Black Rod. He stated that that officer attends the meetings of the Senate. Is his presence here necessary, and for what purpose ?

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

Senator MULCAHY:
Tasmania

– The Committee is greatly indebted to Senator Stewart for bringing this question forward. He has always the courage of’ his opinions, and is not afraid to say things that may be unpopular for the time being. The personal equation is bound to be largely present in the minds of honorable senators in questions of this kind. At the same time, a great many of us talk together from time to time, and are of opinion that there is some extravagance in the number and cost of officers of both Houses. The honorable senator wishes to give effect to what is in the minds of many as well as himself. We find it difficult, because in this case a particular officer is involved, to take action. But we might do what Senator McGregor has suggested - that is, ask the President and the Government, when the resignation of the Clerk of the Parliaments is handed in, to consult the Senate before anything permanent is done in the way of a full reinstatement of the number of officers. It is due to various officers who have held positions here that they should receive promotion as their seniors retire, so long as they have performed all their duties satisfactorily. At the. same time, by arranging the work to be done, it might be possible to do with one officer less without injustice to any officer now in the service of the Parliament. If an undertaking were given, that that would be considered before any new appointment was made, Senator Stewart might be disposed to withdraw his request.

Question: - That the House of Representatives be requested to reduce the item “ Usher of the Black Rod, Clerk of Select Committees, and Secretary of the Joint House Committee, £550,” by £1 - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 2

NOES: 18

Majority … … 16

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Request negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Divisions 11 to 16 (Department of External Affairs), proposed vote, £81,964.

External Affairs : Commonwealth Gazette - Alien Immigration : Inspection of Vessels - High Commissioner - Commonwealth Offices, London - Captain Collins - Historical Records - Papua : Administration : Land Scandals - Australian Men of Letters Fund - Advertising the Commonwealth.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

.- I wish, in connexion with the proposed vote of £1,800 for the printing and distribution of the Commonwealth Gazette, to make some inquiries. The amount stated would average about £38 per week as the cost of the printing and publication of the Gazette. I should like to know from the Minister how many copies are distributed, whether they are distributed gratis, and if not, what revenue is. derived from the sale of the publication, and whether there are any receipts in connexion with the supply of the information contained in it.

Senator BEST:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

– I think there are something like 2,000 copies of the Commonwealth Gazette issued. They are sent to honorable senators amongst other persons.

Senator Givens:

– I do not get one.

Senator Findley:

– Nor I.

Senator Chataway:

– I think they are posted to honorable senators; I always get one.

Senator BEST:

– They can certainly be obtained by honorable senators. I understand that something like 2,000 copies of each issue aredistributed. They are available at all the post-offices, public libraries, and schools of arts. The proceeds or profits from the publication are merely nominal.

Senator Findley:

– Can any citizen of the Commonwealth obtain a copy of the Gazette free of charge?

Senator BEST:

– No. There would appear to be scarcely any public demand for the Gazette, and I am informed that the proceeds of the sale of the publication are purely nominal.

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

The CHAIRMAN:

– I. do not think that the Minister will be in order in discussing that question on this item.

Senator BEST:

– The question has been raised; but if I am relievedfrom replying further I shall be glad.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [9.7]. - It is particularly refreshing to hear some of the members of the party of economymaking such a splendid demonstration of tragic profligacy. But what in the world do we want a High Commissioner in London for? What would he have to do? We have no debt; there is no immigration. He might occasionally have a gaol bird to capture, but that would appear to be rather the function of the officers of Scotland Yard than of a High Commissioner. I do not know what he would have to do, except perhaps to be a kind of modern Mr. Turveydrop, professor of deportment. What else, in the name of thunder, would he have to do? Who can tell me? I would suggest that the representation of the Commonwealth in London might be very readily met by a succession of perambulating senators - one at a time. But if we want Australia to be thoroughly represented, what is the matter with sending a father, mother, and progeny of Australian rabbits ? They would be a splendid advertisement of the fecundity of Australia.

Senator Pulsford:

– Is all this in order?

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– The honorable senator himself is occasionally in the condition that he has just named. As to the adequate representation of the Commonwealth in London - has not Senator Pulsford been there lately? Has he not kept up the Australian end with a brilliancy of declamation and a splendid vigor that have caused him to return crowned with laurels? I wish to draw attention to an extraordinariystate of affairs that has existed for some time in connexion with the gentleman who is at presentacting as our London representative, but whose services are most eminently necessary in connexion’ with the Government defence scheme. The Secretary of Defence has been displaying deportment in London, particularly in connexion with the mail contract that was not a contract, but only an option. We ought to have that officer out here. Either he is a superfluous officer in Australia, or he ought to be here. I cannot understand, when the whole policy of defence is in the balance; the permanent head of the administrative branch being absent from Australia for years together.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The salary of that officer is provided for under another heading.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– I am merely mentioning that as one of the extraordinary features in connexion with this item. Not only is the Secretary of Defence absent, but he is still down on the Estimates as Secretary of Defence. I notice that he has no fewer than four clerks to help him in London. I can quite understand the necessity for them if he’ has a large number of contracts to make like that with James Laing and Sons. I also observe that the sum of £3,200 is down for contingencies. Imagine that large sum being spent on contingencies, when the four clerks draw between them only £450.

Senator Best:

– The vote for contingent cies contains an excess amount of £1.000, which was to be a preliminary deposit in connexion with the contemplated contract for the Strand site.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– We are told in a footnote that the total vole does not include’ the salary of the officer in charge. That is dealt with elsewhere. So that we are spending a fair amount of moneyon our representation in London, and getting very little advantage from it. The results have been exceedingly unhappy during the last two years. I may mention by way of illustration the mail contract and the rifles, with which one cannot hit a hay-stack. Perhaps the Minister will kindly give me some information about a matter in which I take a keen interest, namely, the sum of £650 for the collection of historical records. Is that money to be spent in London or is it to be spent in collating and editing records in Australia?

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

Senator BEST:

– For present purposes and until the High Commissioner is appointed, Captain Collins is doing most excellent work. By his management of money intended for the purchase of defence material, and by his investments, he has shown a profit which more than covers the cost of the London offices. He has also, by his representations in regard to insurance and freights, and in connexion with the despatch of various orders, rendered valuable service. He does all this with a staff, besides himself, of an accountant, three clerks, two typists, and a message boy. He has certainly shown splendid business capacity, and has done all that was ever expected of him in his temporary occupation of the position. Senator Needham asked for information as to the item °f £650 for the collection of Australian historical records. This work is practically a continuation of what was originally started by the New South Wales Government. All the archives of London and other places were searched for records connected with- Australian history. These have been edited by Mr. Bladen, in New South Wales, and a report published by him was printed and circulated as a parliamentary paper in 1903. Mr. Bladen is still engaged in editing the results of the researches. None of the £650 has been spent in London, but £250 of it has been used to meet expenses incurred by Mr. Bladen in Australia.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [9.25]. - I am exceedingly pleased with the statement which the Minister- has just made. The records of Australian history, placed by the New South Wales Government in the very capable hands of Mr. Bladen, who is now Chief Librarian in Sydney, have been brought up to, perhaps, the most interesting point in Australian history the immense development which took place during the governorship of -Governor Macquarie. I am delighted to hear that this most important work is being carried on by the Commonwealth,’ and by a gentleman who has proved his capacity so thoroughly as Mr. Bladen has done.

Senator GIVENS:
Queensland

. - The administration of Papua is a matter of considerable moment.- especially at the present time. Revelations have recently been made with regard to the administration of the Possession which call for the gravest consideration by Parliament, and the Government. Attention has-been called every year by certain honorable senators in the most emphatic way to the administration of Papua, and we were pleased to see a little while ago that the Government seemed inclined to inaugurate a new regime and to put affairs upon a more satisfactory footing. But the recent revelations have shown that, however good their intentions may have been, success has not yet crowned their efforts. I refer to what are called the land scandals, which show that certain officials in Papua have been, to say the least of it, practically conspiring together to pick the eyes out of the country, and to get hold of the best parts for themselves, actually using their official positions to further their designs. If the statements in the papers that have been placed at the disposal of honorable senators are correct, a disgraceful state of affairs is disclosed which should not be allowed to continue for a moment longer. It is a repetition of what took place in every State in Australia, and for which Australia is paying very dearly now, when the old-time cliques who ruled the roost in the young days of the States combined and conspired together to collar the pick of the country for themselves and their friends, to the detriment of Australia and almost to the extent of stopping settlement in the most suitable areas. With all the experience of those days to guide us, the Government should be exceedingly careful to guard against a repetition of that sort of thing in Papua. It has been suggested that things have not had time to settle down there yet, but are in a state of transition. It is true that at present we have no permanent administrator at the head of Papuan affairs. I always understood that the present Acting Administrator, Judge Murray, was to be appointed to that position. I have a personal acquaintance with about one-half of the white settlers in Papua, and I frequently receive letters from them, and from others with whom I have no personal acquaintance, and every letter which I have recently received, either from those whom I know, or from those whom I do not know, refers in the highest terms to Judge Murray, and makes the claim that he is undoubtedly the best qualified man they have ever had for the position of permanent Administrator. I do not know Judge Murray at all, but I give the opinion of him formed by men on the spot, who have to live under him and should have the best opportunities of judging the merits of his methods of administration. In references to the land scandals, it has been suggested in some of the newspapers that Mr. Staniforth Smith who was at one time a respected member of the Senate, is an aspirant for the position of Administrator. I know that when he was a member of the Senate he did aspire to that position, but since his appointment to his present official position in New Guinea, he has been satisfied, and is no longer an aspirant for the position of permanent head of the Government in the Territory. That being so, it is hardly fair to suggest that there is any rivalry between him and Judge Murray for this position. The difficulties which have recently arisen in the Territory have been due to the fact that the old nest, or coterie, or clique of officials has not been completely rooted out as it ought to have been. Attention was called from time to time to their misdeeds, but some of them have been allowed to continue in office, and. Mr. Staniforth Smith and Judge Murray appear to have been powerless to withstand them or to defeat their machinations. For the last four years attention has been called in the Senate to the misgovernment of the little clique of officials in the Territory who arrogated to themselves the right to run the country in their own interests. I believe that the Government have tried,’ and are trying, to improve the administration of affairs in the Territory. ‘ I give them credit for that, but their methods have not been nearly drastic or radical enough. It is impossible to convert a bad administration into a good one by merely grafting on to it one or two good men, whilst the old clique or coterie is left untrammelled. Mr. Staniforth Smith is only one member of the Land Board of Papua, and it is possible for the other members of the Board to overrule him. From the information we have received, it is not possible for anyone to say exactly what are the merits or demerits of the case in connexion with the alleged land scandals. I shall not on that account make any further reference to the matter than to say that the disclosures already made indicate a grave condition of affairs which should be improved at the earliest possible moment. I repeat that the action of the Government in trying to improve the administration has not been sufficiently drastic. They should have entirely weeded out the members of the old clique, whose administration for a number of years has resulted in nothing but dissatisfaction to the white people living in the Territory, and to every one who has business with it. To show that the white residents are eminently reasonable and are prepared to support fair and honest administration, let me repeat my statement that they all speak now in the highest terms of the Acting Administrator, Judge Murray. That being so, the Government should take a further step, and appoint this gentleman to the position of permanent head of the administration in Papua. They should give him full power to deal effectively with the officials who have been carrying on a course of misconduct that has been a disgrace to the Commonwealth as the controlling authority. The Government cannot say that they have not been warned in this matter. Year after year, I have stood up in this chamber, and tried to induce the Government to bundle out the misdoing officials neck and crop.

Senator Best:

– To whom does the honorable senator refer as the officials who ought to be bundled out ?

Senator GIVENS:

– There was a clique of them. Mr. Staniforth Smith, as a member of the Senate, frequently called attention to the misdoings of some of them. We are responsible for the proper government of the Territory, and we cannot shirk our responsibility. We have no doubt two good men there at present in Judge Murray and Mr. Staniforth Smith, but the Government’ should deal. in a drastic way with officials who in at least one instance have been proved to be guilty of wrong-doing. We are far removed from Papua, not, perhaps from the point of view of the actual distance which separates the Territory from the Commonwealth, but from the ppint of view of the difficulty of ready communication. We cannot in the circumstances secure good government by a system of centralization, and the Government should appoint as Administrator the man on the spot in whom they have confidence, and in whom the white residents have confidence, and should give him full authority to deal with wrongdoing officials. In view of the difficulty of ready communication with Papua, when one instance of wrong-doing has been brought to light we can assume that many others have occurred which have not been discovered. Complaints have been frequently received from the Territory from men who have gone there to open up the country and improve it, but they have fallen upon deaf ears, and those who have made them have received very little satisfaction. Now we have absolute proof of wrong-doing - if the papers forwarded by the Acting Administrator are to be admitted as proof-on the part of a clique of officials who wished to enrich themselves at the expense of the country and every one living in it. Another point I should like to mention in this connexion is that I do not think we can have any thorough system of communication with Papua until we have established the check of public opinion upon the officials in the Territory. The white residents have continually petitioned this Parliament and the Federal Government to give them some voice in the management of the affairs of the Territory. We, who believe in home rule for Australia, and for every other part of the Empire, should’ be prepared to apply the principle in the Territory under our own control. The white residents of Papua have claimed representation upon the local Legislative Council. It is at present composed entirely of officials who are the judges of their own conduct and the directors of their own methods of action, and some representation of the white residents on the Council would be a salutary check upon it, and has been asked for time and again.. This is to me an exceedingly important question, but as honorable senators appear to be animated by a desire to deal with the Estimates as quickly as possible I shall not dwell upon it as long as I should otherwise do. I will only add that the Committee has a right to expect from the Minister representing the Government in the Senate some authoritative declaration of the intentions of the Government in connexion with Papua.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– I do not think that Senator Givens need make any apology or excuse for taking up a little of the time of the Committee in considering the question of the administration of Papua. Papers laid on the table in both Houses of the Federal Parliament show that it would be well for us to wait for a time before speaking very strongly about what is occurring there. Some very important matters are, to use a legal phrase, at present sub judice. But the papers show that the question of the administration of Papua is one of the most important which can engage the attention of the Commonwealth Parliament. I take a very great interest in the Territory, and settlers there, and persons otherwise interested in it have spoken very strongly to me about the work of Government there. From what I can gather from those persons, and from the papers to which I have referred, it would appear that the administration of affairs in Papua at the present time is in a critical position, and much will depend on the course which the Government pursue in regard to two important matters. They must make up their minds as to who is to be the responsible officer charged with the administration of affairs in New Guinea. I have been very much pleased with what Senator Givens has had to say on this subject, because I am in a position to indorse his remarks. From every source of inquiry ‘and information, it is clear that the claims of Judge Murray to the position of Administrator ‘ are particularly strong. It is to be hoped that when the permanent appointment is dealt with, the express wishes of the Legislative Council of Papua, as well as of the white settlers in the Territory, will be given careful consideration. Probably, we should be in closer touch with Papua than we are now, and it is a difficult question to decide how we can be brought into closer touch with that Territory. We have a precedent in the representation given in Congress to Territories of the United States before they had become States. The United States Congress provided that when a Territory which was looking forward to representation in Congress, possessed a certain population, it should be entitled to elect a representative who, without a vote in Congress, should be given a consultative power. ‘ He might be consulted in one of the chambers - I think the Senate. It might be possible for us to adopt a similar practice in dealing with Papua, and in that way give some representation in the Federal Parliament to the Legislative Council of the Territory. Whether we should follow the lines adopted in the United States, or should mark out a new course for ourselves, is a difficult question to determine, but the administration of Papua so far has, unfortunately, been attended with mistakes which have been more or less tragical.

Senator Keating:

– I do not think that the honorable senator’s representation of the position of Territories of the United States is quite correct.

Senator ST LEDGER:

– I do not. say that it is ; but I have made the suggestion as indicating a precedent which, if followed, might bring us into closer touch with the administration of affairs in Papua.

Senator Keating:

– The status of Territories of the United States has been under the consideration of the Government in connexion with the administration of Papua.

Senator ST LEDGER:

– I am very glad to hear that that aspect of the questibn has been considered. A desire that it should be given consideration is my excuse for making these remarks. The future of Papua is one of the most important questions with which the Government will have to deal. I hope that what has been said here will receive the most earnest consideration at their hands, and that no clique inside or outside Papua will interfere with the policy which we think is designed to promote its best interests. We have a sufficiently strong indication of how and where wrong has been done. We have also a clear indication of how and where we may do right. I hope sincerely that this will be the last occasion on which it will be necessary to make any complaint concerning the administration of the Territory.

Senator BEST:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

– The various matters which have Been mentioned by honorable senators are worthy of the consideration, and, as a matter of fact, have received the attention of the Government. The manner in which the Government viewed the revelations in regard to certain land scandals in Papua, may, perhaps, be judged best by the severe terms of the last minute on the subject by the Prime Minister. There were three officials primarily implicated. One was Mr. Drummond, who was a surveyor ; and the others were Mr. Pinney and Mr. Ardlie. It was recommended by the Executive Council that Mr. Drummond should be suspended, and he has been. It was . recommended that Mr. Pinney should be fined £25, and I believe that no punishment or award has been made in the case of Mr. Ardlie. When a full report of the case arrived, it received grave and lengthy consideration from the Prime Minister, who wrote the following minute -

The offences herein indicated appear to call for the severest punishment, but at present I am quite unable to account for the penalty proposed to be inflicted upon Mr. Pinney, or the omission of Mr. Ardlie. Though occupying a much less responsible position than Mr. Drummond, Mr. Pinney’s conduct in the second application seems at least as culpable. Having regard to his behaviour in the two. cases mentioned, a fine of £25 is wholly inadequate, and the fact that this fine is all that is suggested in his case embarrasses me in considering the matter in which Mr. Drummond’s abuse of his office should be dealt with. A further report, convening the opinion of the Executive Council, and also your own opinion upon the relative responsibility of these three offenders, should be made by telegraph. The penalities to be imposed ought to be adjusted in relation to each other as well as to wrong-doing. Information is also required why Mr. Ardlie’s participation in this matter has apparently passed unnoticed.

In accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commission a sum of £5,000 has been placed on the Estimates for that purpose.

– Probably the time indicated by the Minister would be the best at which to debate this important question. I will yield to his wish, and thank him for his suggestion.

– It is for advertising awards, common rules, and general notices in newspapers.

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

– Why is lt necessary to provide £250 for travelling expenses for the Court of Conciliation and Arbitration in view of the liberal travelling expenses allowed in connexion with the High Court under the last division? What particular travelling expenses are provided for by this item?’

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the ..Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

– This provision is made for cases where the President of the Court has to travel in connexion with the work of the Court. Very little was expended in that way last year, and I am not certain whether all this sum will be spent, but it is provided to be available if necessary.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Home Affairs - Recoup of Election Expenses - Electoral Office : Western Australia - Collection of Statistics - Commonwealth Year-Book - Office Cleaners - Medical Officers’ Retaining Fees - Gratuities’ for Valuable and Practical Suggestions. - Map of Australasia - Lighthouses.

Divisions 21 to 29 (Department of Home

Affairs), proposed vote, £234,036.

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

– Is there not some item relating to candidates’ expenses at the recent South Australian election?

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– It was intended to make certain provision in the Supplementary Estimates to meet what the honorable senator is thinking of, but since the Supplementary Estimates were introduced in another place, it has been decided to make special provision under a special Act to meet the special circumstances of this case. On previous occasons, in connexion with the Melbourne election and the Riverina election, special provision was made by the Government for recouping certain candidates the expenses they incurred in connexion with elections afterwards avoided on account of the fault of Government officials. We intend to follow the like course in this case. The only matter now under consideration is the extent to which the Government should recognise its responsibility for certain legal costs. The fullest consideration will be given by the Government to the whole of the circumstances, and the Government will recognise their responsibility without taking any course that may hereafter be calculated to induce defeated candidates to indiscriminately enter upon a course of litigation.

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

– The various sums set out under the Division of “ Electoral Office “ are very small. I have a suspicion that they do not cover the whole of the cost, and that there are other items in the Estimates connected with ‘ the expenses of the office. Only £185 is set down for Western

Australia. I am afraid there is room for criticism of this office, at all events in that State. There was previously room for very much criticism, but we at last obtained a man who seemed to .understand the working of our electoral laws. The Minister of Home Affairs gave a specific promise on the floor of the Senate that that officer at Perth would be permanently appointed to the head of the Western Australian branch, but he was riot appointed, and the Department lost one of the ablest men in electoral matters in Western Australia. I do not know who has been put in charge of the work in that State, but I am sure that he is not a better man. Is the Minister certain that we shall not get into the same confused state in our electoral affairs in Perth as obtained prior to the appointment of the man whose services were dispensed with? The moment he left the Commonwealth service he was snapped up by the State authorities, who knew a good man, and gave him a position in the State Electoral Office. I regret to say that a certain amount of influence that was not at all creditable to the Government, in view of the definite promise given by the Minister, was brought to bear to get rid of that officer. .There was a scandal in connexion with his dismissal. I suppose we shall have to wait to ascertain whether the present occupant of the position can do the work better than it was done before that gentleman took it over. Does this item represent the total expense of the Electoral Office in Western Australia?

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– The Minister can take no other course. What is the use of our gathering information if we cannot take any further step?

Proposed vote agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 10309

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Senator Best) agreed to -

That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until to-morrow at2. 30 p.m.

page 10309

ADJOURNMENT

Surtax on Sugar.

Motion (by Senator Best) proposed_

That the Senate do now adjourn.

Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland

– I desire to ask the VicePresident of the Executive Council if he can tell me the date of the cablegram which has been sent to the Natal Government in reference to the surtax on Australian sugar?

Senator Best:

– It was sent to-day.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Senate adjourned at11. 13 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 8 April 1908, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1908/19080408_senate_3_45/>.

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Senate 8 April 1908

QUESTION

EASTER ADJOURNMENT

Senator BEST:Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist

Senator Millen:

Senator BEST:

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator BEST:

Senator Stewart:

Senator Sir Josiah Symon:

Senator BEST:

QUESTION

POST OFFICE: STOCKWELL

Senator STORY:SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator KEATING:Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

TRUST FUNDS

Senator PULSFORD:NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator BEST:Protectionist

QUESTION

SYDNEY MAIL

Senator KEATING:Protectionist

QUESTION

INDIAN REMOUNTS

Senator MILLEN:

Senator BEST:Protectionist

PAPERS

NAVIGATION BILL

Senator MACFARLANE:TASMANIA

Senator BEST:Protectionist

QUESTION

SURTAX ON SUGAR

Senator CHATAWAY:QUEENSLAND

Senator BEST:Protectionist

Senator Chataway:

Senator BEST:

QUESTION

MAJOR DOVE

QUESTION

CARTRIDGE BLANKS

Senator PEARCE:WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator KEATING:Protectionist

PRINTING COMMITTEE

QUESTION

PRIVILEGE : SELECT COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE

Senator BEST:Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

Senator BEST:

Senator Givens:

Senator Story:

Senator Givens:

Senator BEST:

Senator MILLEN:New South Wales

Senator Findley:

Senator MILLEN:

Senator Colonel NEILD:NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Mulcahy:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Givens:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Findley:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator Pearce:

Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON:

Senator PEARCE:Western Australia

Senator ST LEDGER:Queensland

Senator Findley:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator Findley:

Senator ST LEDGER:

Senator Findley:

Senate
8 April 1908

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist

Senator STORY:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Senator KEATING:
Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

Senator PULSFORD:
NEW SOUTH WALES

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator KEATING:
Protectionist

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator MACFARLANE:
TASMANIA

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator CHATAWAY:
QUEENSLAND

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

Senator PEARCE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Senator KEATING:
Protectionist

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

Senator Colonel NEILD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Senator PEARCE:
Western Australia

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

Senator PULSFORD:
New South Wales

Senator DE LARGIE:
Western Australia

Senator BEST:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist