Senate
13 March 1908

3rd Parliament · 2nd Session



The President took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 8978

NAVIGATION BILL

Senator GUTHRIE:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, if there is any reason why the despatch from the Board of Trade with regard to the proposed navigation law should not be laid upon the table of the Senate ?

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist

– It will be laid upon the table of the Senate probably during the present sitting.

page 8979

QUESTION

ASSISTANT TELEGRAPHISTS

Senator PEARCE:
WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I beg to ask the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral, without notice, whether he can tell the Senate, or, if not, whether he will ascertain what salaries are paid to the partially employed telegraphists mentioned in the return tabled yesterday, and also whether those officials come under the minimum wage provision of the Public Service Act?

Senator KEATING:
Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist

– I have not the information at my command, but I shall be very pleased to obtain it and supply it as early as possible, perhaps to-day.

page 8979

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Senator SAYERS:
QUEENSLAND

– I desire to make a personal explanation regarding a matter which appears in the Age of this morning, and in which certain remarks are attributed to me. Yesterday morning my colleague, Senator Chataway, had to get up in his place and deny some remarks which had been attributed to him. I must say that I . was quite unaware that the event’ mentioned by him had taken place, so that I could not have requested the honorable gentleman to “ nurse the baby.” I believe that they apply to a young Australian. At present he is unable to defend himself, but if he follows in the footsteps of his father I have no doubt that at a later time he will be able to take his own part. I hope that in future, when a reference of this kind is made, it will be made to the right person. I should be the very last person to make such remarks about any one as have been attributed to me. In fact, that is not in my line. I hope that this explanation will satisfy honorable senators and the gentleman named.

page 8979

QUESTION

S.S. AFRIC

Senator GUTHRIE:

asked the VicePresident of the Executive Council, upon notice -

If he will lay upon the table of the Senate copies of the affidavits made by marine surveyors in England on the condition of the s.s. Afric, as laid before the Court of Marine, Inquiry at Melbourne, on11th March?

Senator BEST:
Protectionist

– We are in communication with the authorities with regard to these papers. Of course, if we secure them we shall be only too pleased to lay them upon the table.

page 8979

SUPPLY BILL (No. 5)

In Committee (Consideration resumed from 12th March, vide page 8925):

Schedule.

Parliament - Senate Rooms : Accommodation for Papers : Personal Attendance.

Divisions 1 to 10 (The Parliament),£5,514.

Senator STEWART:
Queensland

– On the proposed vote for the refreshmentrooms, I wish again to call attention to the want of accommodation for our papers. Every day I hear some honorable senators complaining of the lack of accommodation for that purpose, and seeing that there is plenty of spare room in the building, I think that the House Committee ought to take some steps to meet our views. All the accommodation each senator has in the Senate Club-room is a small box, which he has to clear every other day, and from the want of another locker we mostly throw old papers into the waste-paper basket. Honorable senators really have no place in which to put old papers, and therefore they are compelled to throw them away. I often am very much inconvenienced by the want of room. I cannot lay my band upon a document when it is wanted. I very often am put to a lot of trouble, which, if suitable conveniences were provided, would not be necessary. Upstairs there is a big room, which is reserved mostly for dinners. We do not have many dinners in that room, and there is plenty of space round its walls for a large number of boxes and desks to be provided. I ask the Government to take the matter seriously into consideration. Of course, it may be claimed that there is plenty of accommodation for senators’ . papers, and that those who sat here before our day were quite satisfied with it. But I would point out that those gentlemen merely played at legislation, while we are very much in earnest about it. Their field of work was extremely limited, while ours ranges over the entire Commonwealth, and, indeed, beyond it. In addition to that, they all lived in Melbourne, and each of them, I suppose, could have an office in his own dwelling, whereas the majority of the senators come from other portions of Australia, are mere pilgrims, so to speak, and cannot provide themselves with an office in the house where they happen, to be staying during the session: I hear a great number of honorable senators complaining of the want of accommodation, and I desire, if I can, to elicit an expression of opinion on this matter from the Committee. As I know that nothing short of an adverse vote will have any effect upon the Government, I move -

That the House of Representatives be requested to reduce the item, !1 Refreshment Rooms, j£i02,” by £i.

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

– I think that this question ought to have been raised in connexion with the Department which has control of the question of the Federal Capital site, because what Senator Stewart has said clearly points to the fact that we can never be properly accommodated here. His speech was one of the most powerful and pathetic appeals I have heard made to the Government to urge on the early settlement of that question.

Senator Guthrie:

– It is settled, and it is only a matter of shifting to Dalgety.

Senator MILLEN:

– The honorable senator is a little more confident about that than are a great many other persons. I indorse what Senator Stewart has said as to the extreme inconvenience which arises from the want of accommodation for our papers. During the last few months we have been particularly loaded down with papers in connexion with the Tariff. The more methodical of us have desired to keep many of those papers in’ something like convenient order, but it is -absolutely impossible, to do that with one little locker, which would make only a fair-sized pigeon’s nest. As every one knows, the accommodation is quite inadequate to enable any one charged with the duties of a representative of the people to keep his papers in order. Not infrequently I find that- the “attendant has been unable to place my letters in the locker. He can just poke them into the little slit in the door where they get jambed. While this is a magnificent show building, the accommodation really available for work is limited. So far as my knowledge goes, there are no rooms that can be taken iri hand without seriously disturbing the purposes for which they are intended. I do not suppose that Senator Stewart would like to monopolize the room to which he has referred solely for the purpose of providing accommodation for honorable senators:

Senator Stewart:

– Why not?

Senator MILLEN:

– I thought my honorable friend gave in his adherence to the idea that it would be a great injury to ‘destroy the principal purpose for which the room is intended.

Senator Stewart:

– It would not benecessary to destroy that purpose at all.

Senator Guthrie:

– There is the Queen’s Hall for dinners.

Senator Stewart:

– We can do away with the dinners. /

Senator Trenwith:

– Anything but that f.

Senator MILLEN:

– I entirely join with Senator Trenwith in that protest. The room referred to fulfils a purpose, and it is sometimes required for meetings connected with public business. Whether that room were retained for its principal purpose or not, there would certainly have to be a room available for such. uses. It must be remembered that we are only tenants of this building.

Senator Stewart:

– We may be here for years.

Senator MILLEN:

– The Government would not ‘be wise in incurring great expense - even if the owners of the building permitted it - on architectural alterations. Anything of that kind would be merely a make-shift. Honorable senators really cannot expect to have proper accommoda-tion provided for them until the Federal Parliament is sitting in its own House.

Senator SAYERS:
Queensland

– I have already taken some hand in regard to this matter, and have presented a petition from members of the Senate to the Government with reference to it. I understood that something would be done to assist us. The petition was presented before Christmas. What we require is a place in which our letters and. papers can be kept, and be available for ready reference, apart from the accumulation of Parliamentary documents. Whilst the Tariff was before the other House, I suppose that nearly every honorable senator received on an average about twenty letters per day.

Senator Guthrie:

– More than that.

Senator SAYERS:

– I. am trying to keep strictly within the limits of accuracy. Personally, I had more every day. I believe that the contractor who was consulted required £50 to make a piece of furniture that would provide better accommodation for honorable senators. It seemed a considerable sum to spend on a little plain woodwork, with some beading, and a few fittings. But at the same time, if the thing is necessary, .it should be obtained. When I want a particular paper, I have to turn out the whole box. There are many papers which a senator does not wish to destroy because he knows that they may be required at a moment’s notice. Only last night, if I or Senator Stewart had . destroyed certain letters, it would have been impossible to bring forward a matter which was discussed. Whilst this building looks magnificent from outside, you find when you acquire a little better acquaintance with it that it is nothing but a mass of corridors.

Senator Millen:

– It is all corridors and draughts.

Senator SAYERS:

– The draughts are almost sufficient to kill a man with a cast iron constitution. I direct particular attention to Senator Millen’s case. I “think that he, as leader of the Opposition, ought to have a room for himself, just as have Ministers, the President, and the Chairman of Committees. The leader of the Opposition, in the other Chamber, has a special room, and surely Senator Millen ought to have accommodation for keeping his papers and transacting his business.

Senator Findley:

– If Senator Millen had a room for himself the other leaders of the Opposition, Senator Neild and Senator Macfarlane, would also want special rooms.

Senator SAYERS:

– I do not mind my honorable friend having a little bit of fun, but this is really a serious question. I hope that the House Committee will take the matter into consideration. We do not ask for the expenditure of a large amount of money. I. do not believe that the members of the Senate have asked the Government to spend £5 on accommodation since I have been a senator. The piece of furniture that we require would not cost more than ,630 or ,£40, and, after all, it would belong to the Commonwealth. If ever we have a Parliament House, belonging to the Commonwealth, the article would be removed with our other property.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [11.22]. - I wish to say a word with reference to the accommodation provided for the papers of honorable senators. Certainly, whatever can be done, should be done. I own, that recently, during the Tariff debate, I have been placed in a very awkward position. I have received com munications and have written replies promising to give attention to matters at the proper time. But when the proper time has arrived my papers have been in such an unhappy condition owing to lack of accommodation for them, that I have not been able to find what I wanted to enable me to keep a pledge given by me as a public man. That places me in a very awkward position. I am not careless with regard to my papers. I fold them and indorse them as a clerk in . an office does ; then put a band round them, and put them away carefully. Yet it seems impossible to keep one’s papers in order. The difficulty has been increased by our practice of skipping from one division of the Tariff to another. The order in which items have been taken has been frequently altered. Sometimes a letter which one receives alludes to three or four items of the Tariff. When the first item is dealt with one makes use of the letter, and puts it back in its place for future use. But owing to the lack of proper accommodation one is unable to find it again. It is most unfortunate, and I feel very keenly the difficulty in which I have been placed, because I have positively been driven by the stress of the inconvenience referred to into the position of failing to keep a promise which I made as a public man. The amount of work that one has to do here is certainly very heavy. As an old business man, I have never before tried to transact as much business without clerks to help me, and proper pigeon holes in which to place documents. It is impossible for any member of the Senate who desires to keep in touch with his correspondents to do it under existing circumstances. Of course there is one thing to be said in favour of our practice of senators meeting in one large room ‘instead of having different rooms’ as is the case with the members of another Chamber. Our practice results in promoting a feeling of camara derie amongst the members of the Senate which I do not think obtains to such a degree elsewhere. That is a very happy thing, but nevertheless the lack of accommodation is very inconvenient, especially in relation to one’s correspondence. Even in the room where we do meet there are only four ink pots and blotting pads for the use of thirty-six gentlemen. But I do not see how the accommodation! can- be enlarged without altering the furniture. I am a member of the House Committee, and must take my share of blame if any one is to be blamed. But though this building is a splendid aggregation of corridors there are very few rooms in it. I do not know what can be done without providing additional rooms, which would be practically impossible. In the United States provision is made for the members of Congress to occupy a building where the members have offices and sleeping accommodation - one room each for members of the House of Representatives, whilst the Senate being half as numerous, each senator has two rooms provided in the building which they occupy; the two buildings being of equal size, and situate to rear of the Legislative chambers. Without setting up a claim for two rooms for each member of this Senate, I do say that if we ever have a Federal Capital and Federal Parliament Houses, I think provision will have to be made for a building to accommodate members of Parliament. It will then be much more convenient than it is at present for members from distant States when attending to their duties at the Seat of Government. At the same time I think that members should , pay interest to a sinking fund for the suggested accommodation. When one comes to Melbourne he is likely to find that owing to a rush of visitors, on account perhaps of a cricket match or the races, there is a difficulty in finding accommodation. A member really does not know whether he will be compelled to become a distinguished occupant of No. i boiler, Yarra Bank, or something of that sort.

The CHAIRMAN:

– -I do not think that the honorable senator should discuss accommodation of future Parliament Houses, or any matter apart from the question now before us.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– I own that I do not know what can be done to improve the accommodation, unless it be the provision of additional cupboards. I am very much in agreement with Senator Stewart with reference to the very unhappy method of dealing with, newspapers. The accommodation for them is most unsatisfactory. I never saw anything so bad anywhere in my life in a public building, as the newspaper accommodation in the Club-room. I know that several attempts have been made to rectify these matters - I am not censorious, and must take a share of the blame - but I have begun to look upon the condition of affairs as chronic.

Senator Lt.-Colonel GOULD (New South Wales) [11.31].- As the debate proceeds there seems to be a tendency to increase the requirements of honorable senators, because I have just heard it suggested by the last speaker that it would be a. matter of great convenience if each honorable senator had an office, and office accommodation to himself. I quite agree that it would be very convenient’ and comfortable, but is it a reasonable proposition to put forward in view of the expense that would1 necessarily be involved? Exception has been taken to the want of accommodation so far as rooms are concerned. It is said that conversation goes on in the Club-room,, and that therefore it is very difficult for a man to collect his thoughts, write, or deal with business there. The members of the Labour Party in this Chamber have had allotted tothem a room, which .was provided by cutting off the end of one of the corridors, so that the members of the party to. which Senator Stewart belongs have an opportunity of getting a little peace and quietude for writing. There is another room upstairs used by a large number of honorable senators for the purpose of typing their correspondence, writing, and doing other work, where they can be free from interruption by the conversation of others.

Senator Mulcahy:

– I have known both rooms to be occupied by Committees.

Senator Lt Colonel GOULD:

– It is now suggested that a room near the Clubroom downstairs might be utilized, but we are the tenants of the Victorian State Government, and one of the conditions imposed is that a room should be reserved for the use of members of the Legislative Council.

Senator Trenwith:

– A very reasonable reservation.

Senator Lt Colonel GOULD:

– It is,, and it puts that room on one side altogether. It is said that it is not often used. That may be so, but still it is required by the State people, and we have no right to complain. Then there is a room upstairs, which one honorable senator says is used only for lunches. That room is the only one available for the use of Select Committees or Royal Commissions. It is absolutely necessary to provide accommodation for that purpose. If the room is taken away I do not know where we can place Committees or Royal Commissions. Senator Mulcahy interjected just now that’ he has seen the second room upstairs occupied by a Committee, so that when two Committees are sitting both those rooms have to be used. Every effort is being made to accommodate honorable senators to the fullest possible extent that the construction of the building will allow. If more rooms were available, they would assuredly be placed at the disposal of honorable senators. I know that Senator Millen, as leader of the Opposition, must feel it a great inconvenience at times not to have a room to which he can retire, but there is no room to give him. I had inquiry made a little while ago, to see if it would be possible to cut off some corridor io make another room, but. I found it impracticable. With regard to the question of the minor,’ but still very important, conveniences in the shape of lockers and boxes for honorable senators, every honorable senator is at present accommodated with one medium-sized locker in the Club-room, and there are lockers underneath. There are a large number also in the basement Whether they are fully used or not I do not know.

Senator Guthrie:

– They are all filled.

Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD:
NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913

-Colonel GOULD. - If honorable senators require to keep the whole of their parliamentary papers; books, and reports in this building, there will not be accommodation for them. One honorable senator with all his Hansards, Votes and Proceedings, and other documents, would require an’ enormous amount of space which I do not think should reasonably be expected to be given. Of course there are Hansards and Votes and Proceedings kept in the Club-room for general use, and they no doubt suffice. I shall refer the question of additional lockers to the House Committee. I did contemplate in response to a previous request having additional lockers provided, but when I found that it would cost from A4° to £>5°> when the impression was that it should cost only £10 or ^15, I thought it time to pause. If honorable senators will be content with lockers without doors, locks, and keys, there will be a much better chance of providing accommodation at a reasonable cost. If honorable senators express a desire for- special accommodation, and the House Committee assent, steps will of course be taken to provide it!, whether it costs ^50 or,. if necessary, £too or £200. Everything is being done that can possibly be done to promote the comfort and convenience pf honorable senators. A scheme for the ventilation of the chamber is now being carried out, and will be in active working order early next week. That involves considerable expense, so that honorable senators cannot say that things are being neglected. I will instruct the Secretary of the House Committee to call a meeting at an early date, and invite honorable senators to submit all the matters which they think urgent, and which the Committee may reasonably be asked to entertain. In that way I hope that the accommodation which honorable senators may reasonably require will be given to them.

Senator DOBSON:
Tasmania

– The greatest difficulty I find is in being unable to sort my papers through having no divisions or compartments in which to keep them, lt would be a great convenience to me if my box below could be divided into three compartments, and each of my boxes in the Club-room into two. I could keep the top division for letters and pamphlets, the next for bills and papers for immediate use, in another all reports of Royal Commissions or of public officers, and underneath general papers. It would be a still greater convenience if the drawer underneath my seat in this chamber were enlarged. It is so shallow that if I put in my Bills, Constitution, and Standing Orders, I cannot stuff in a magazine which I want “to quote from, and of which I. have to take great care. There is a deeper box further along which I have always coveted. It would be a great comfort to me if this drawer could be deepened to accommodate Bills, Estimates, Standing Orders, and any document or paper which I required for immediate use in the chamber.

Senator HENDERSON:
Western Australia

– I am disappointed that something has not been done in the’ direction asked for in the petition presented by Senator Sayers some time ago. There is a great deal ‘ of difference even now between the accommodation in the Club-room possessed by different senators. We have a tier of three boxes, but some honorable senators have beer fortunate enough, by being here a longer time, to have a large box at the bottom of that tier.

Senator Mulcahy:

– The honorable senator can get one of those.

Senator HENDERSON:

– It is utterly impossible, unless the bottom boxes are cut into three, or are made common boxes. If those who have the boxes on the floor of the Club-room feel inconvenience, how much more so .must others of us who have to- use continually one little square box ? It is true that the Labour Party have had the end of a corridor made into a room for them, but the members of the Opposition have upstairs a room which is certainly not the terminus of the corridor. The President was therefore not quite fair in reminding Senator Stewart that he had gone to the trouble of providing room accommodation at the end of a corridor for the Labour Party, when that was only done to put party accommodation on something like an equality. I hope the President will point out to the House Committee the difference which I have mentioned between the accommodation possessed by honorable senators in the Club-room. I trust that everything possible will be done to give greater accommodation to those who are at present most inconvenienced.

Senator CLEMONS:
Tasmania

– I am afraid that I shall strike a discordant note in the debate. I wish to say that, in my opinion, the remarks which have been made are calculated to establish a permanent public opinion that honorable senators are, or desire to be, a very pampered class. I know that Senator Neildis indulging in exaggeration, but I was amused to listen to his description of what he has to suffer from lack of accommodation, ending with the suggestion that it was quite possible that, in a city of the size of Melbourne, he might find it necessary to sleep in a boiler. It seems to me extraordinary that thirty-six honorable senators should find themselves seriously inconvenienced by lack of accommodation in a building which, so far as I know, is by far the largest, most capacious, and most convenient Parliament House in Australia.

Senator Dobson:

– It is not the most convenient.

Senator Millen:

– I have not been in one that was more inconvenient.

Senator CLEMONS:

– Speaking from my personal knowledge, I know of no other Parliament House in Australia that is so convenient. I do not suggest for a moment that I am a tidy man, and I have no doubt that Senator Dobson is infinitely more precise and methodical, but I have to say that, personally, I have experienced no great difficulty with regard to accommodation for my papers. I believe that what is really at the bottom of the trouble of which honorable senators complain with regard to the accommodation for their papers, is the fact that an enormous waste of money is going on in the Commonwealth in the printing of papers with which honorable senators’ lockers are filled, and nine out of every ten of which are seldom opened and hardly ever read, and are ultimately consigned to the waste-paper basket after an attempt has been made to find room for them in the lockers for some months. With respect to the room accommodation, we have beentold that the members of the Labour Party have a separate room set aside for themselves. It has occurred to me that, perhaps out of a spirit of comradeship or a desire to be friendly with honorable senators belonging to other parties, they spend most of their time in the general Club-room. I do not wish to remind them that they have a special room, but that would be an answer to any who complained of insufficient accommodation in the Club-room. Personally, I want no more room accommodation than is provided in the Club-room.

Senator Guthrie:

– But honorable senators opposite have a special room.

Senator CLEMONS:

– If there is a special room provided for honorable senators on this side, I have never made use of it. The Club-room, which is a very large and capacious room, is sufficient for me, and those who require more accommodation of the kind can avail themselves of the. other rooms provided. Another complaint is that, owing to the buzz of conversation in the Club-room, honorable senators cannot write, but I have noticed that they do not find it impossible to write in this chamber when an honorable senator is speaking, and when the buzz of conversation is very much more noticeable than it is in the Club-room.

Senator Mulcahy:

– Some men cannot write if a conversation is going on around them.

Senator Dobson:

– And they cannot read a difficult Bill.

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Dobson surely might find a better time and place to do that part of his work. If honorable senators are seriously interested in the provisions of a Bill, I think that they could find other opportunities to study them than the few moments they may have to spare in this building. I think that some honorable senators are asking too many privileges, rights, perquisites, and personal attendance, involving general expenditure. I would much sooner see the hat go round and subscribe for honorable senators who want more accommodation and personal attendance for which the taxpayers of the Commonwealth have to pay.

Senator Stewart:

– Who requires personal attendance?

Senator CLEMONS:

– I am sure the honorable senator does not desire that I should refer to honorable senators by name.

Senator Stewart:

– I think the honorable senator ought to do so. I object to his making a general statement of that kind, because so far as I am concerned I want no personal attendance, and I have no wish to be included in the group of those who do.

Senator CLEMONS:

– I am very glad to hear that. Senator Stewart must be included in the same group with myself. I will say that, practically speaking, every member of the Senate who travels from Melbourne to another State makes use, every time he travels, of the services of a personal attendant at some one else’s expense. That is a practice to which I have always objected.

Senator Millen:

– That personal attendant is a member of the permanent staff, and is not employed solely for the purpose to which the honorable senator refers.

Senator CLEMONS:

– Does Senator Millen suggest that that makes theposition any better? Are we to have a permanent staff of personal attendants?

Senator Millen:

– The honorable senator is suggesting that some special expense is incurred in connexion with the journeying of honorable senators to and from the trains.

Senator CLEMONS:

– As Senator Millen should know, the time of one or more of the permanent employes of Parliament House is largely taken up in attending to honorable senators’ luggage when they travel .

Senator Gray:

– And very properly so too.

Senator CLEMONS:

– I think it is very improper, but it is, of -course, a matter of personal opinion. It is another instance of a growing desire on the part of members of the Senate to increase their own privileges, and, practically speaking, to increase their perquisites. It is paralleled by another practice to which I have always objected - the desire not only to have every letter they write and every wire they have to send stamped at some one else’s expense, but to take away stamps to quite a large amount, as some honorable senators do, for use in their correspondence.

Senator Mulcahy:

– Surely the honorable senator cannot say that honorable senators generally desire to increase their perquisites when they make a request for decent accommodation for their letters and papers.

Senator CLEMONS:

– Has Senator Mulcahy lived such a pampered life when elsewhere that he finds the conveniences provided in this building insufficient for him ?

Senator Dobson:

– We have spoken of the lack of accommodation for our papers.

Senator CLEMONS:

– I have ample accommodation for my papers.

Senator Dobson:

– Because the honorable senator never keeps any papers.I have seen him tearing them up by the dozen without opening or looking at them.

Senator CLEMONS:

Senator Dobson is not in a position to make such an assertion about my conduct of my personal affairs. I might ask him what he has done with all the papers put in his locker and supplied to him since he has been a member of this Parliament. I have no doubt that he has consigned 99 per cent, of them to the waste-paper basket.

Senator Dobson:

– I have kept a great many.

Senator CLEMONS:

– Then I venture to say that the time will soon arrive when the honorable senator will require the whole of the accommodation of this building for himself. I only wish personally to say that I think there is no ground for the suggestion that in a building like this additional room andlocker accommodation is required.

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– I hope that the honorable senator who has moved the request will now see that he has achieved his object, and will recognise the wisdom of withdrawing it. This is a matter within the domain of the Joint House Committee, and any honorable senator who desires to bring under the notice of that authority the inadequacy of the accommodation provided might very well in the first instance make his representations to the Chairman of that Committee. I know that there is ground for the complaint that the provision for papers made in the Clubroom of the Senate is inadequate. Some honorable senators desire to keep more papers than do others, and some keep the whole of their parliamentary papers in this building. This was recognised some lime ago; and additional lockers were supplied on the basement. To what extent they are availed of I do not know, but I am able to say that I keep a good many papers in the basement. It has been pointed out that although this building presents a very fine exterior appearance the interior accommodation it provides is not in keeping with t hat exterior.

Senator Mulcahy:

– It is a wilderness of tesselation.

Senator KEATING:

- Senator Stewart having received the assurance of the Chairman of the Joint House Committee that the matters referred to will be considered at a meeting of the Committee, and that honorable senators are invited to submit their representations to that Committee, should be satisfied and should not press his request. There is only one other matter to which I should like to refer, and that is the matter mentioned by Senator Clemons, because it is possible that outside there might be some misunderstanding as to the exact position. The honorable senator referred to the fact that members of the Senate when journeying from Melbourne to one or other of the States have the services of a personal attendant. I know that he did not wish to convey an impression which I am afraid would be given abroad.

Senator Clemons:

– That there were thirty-six of these persons?

Senator KEATING:

– Not that.

Senator Clemons:

– I did not mean that, and my remarks could not bear that interpretation.

Senator KEATING:

– I wish to point out a circumstance which might very well be overlooked. There is a number of honorable senators who travel between Melbourne and South Australia and New South Wales practically every week during the session. They arrive here near the time when the Senate is assembling, and leave here on Friday afternoon just after it rises, at 4 o’clock. In order to catch the Adelaide train they must arrive at the station at twenty minutes to 5 o’clock, and, in order to catch the Sydney train they must get there at about 5 o’clock. Now, to enable those honorable senators to remain at their duty here an arrangementhas been made that one attendant shall go round to their several residences, pick up their luggage, and take it to the railway station. They are not, as might be inferred, taken down to the railway station in vehicles, but find their way there either by foot or by tram. This plan has been adopted to convenience honorable senators, and enable the Senate to have its full strength from the first to the last moment of its sitting. If honorable senators had to go out to the dif ferent suburbs to pick up their luggage, they would have to leave here at 2.30 or 3 o’clock, and, consequently, the Senate would not have its full strength for the rest of the sitting.

Senator Clemons:

– Is that the only alternative? Does the Minister mean to say that an ordinary man could not leave here and make arrangements for himself?

Senator Guthrie:

– The honorable senator might, as he belongs to a club near by.

Senator KEATING:

– The honorable senator often arrives here in the morning just prior to the beginning of a sitting.

Senator Clemons:

– I always make my own arrangements, just as an ordinary traveller does.

Senator KEATING:

– I have reason to believe that the honorable senator, when he leaves to catch his steamer, can on the way call at his residence to pick up his luggage, but that is not the position of every other senator. His residence is situated between the Senate and the wharf.

Senator Guthrie:

– As a rule, he clears out about an hour before every one else.

Senator Clemons:

– That sort of personal interjection is inaccurate, unnecessary, and in very bad form.

Senator KEATING:

– There are some honorable senators whose residences are situated at some distance from the railway station and the Senate. They arrive here on Tuesday or Wednesday at about halfanhour or an hour before the time for the assembling of the Senate.

Senator Clemons:

– From Adelaide they arrive at about 10 o’clock.

Senator KEATING:

– Under normal conditions, those honorable senators have all they can do to get from the station to Parliament House, and snatch a little lunch, before the Senate meets, and, in the meantime, their luggage has been taken out to their residences.

Senator Mulcahy:

– On the last trip of the Loongana, Tasmanian senators barely got here in time to be present at the beginning of the sitting.

Senator KEATING:

– The expense which is involved in carrying out this arrangement is not very much, considering the convenience which it is, not to honorable senators individually, but to the Senate as a body. It enables some honorable senators, on arrival here, to come almost straight to the Senate, and remain here during nearly the whole of the sitting. As they generally arrive and leave at about the same time, one man can do that little work of assembling their luggage at the railway station.

Senator Clemons:

– The senators from Tasmania and South Australia arrive before or at about 10 o’clock in the morning.

Senator KEATING:

– Not always. But even if that were so there is no reason why any discrimination should be made. The matter is comparatively small, but as it was submitted to the Committee it might have created a very false impression in the minds of the public. I am sure that the honorable senator did not intend to create that impression. I think it will be realized that it is not for the convenience of senators personally, but for the convenience of the Senate as a body.

Senator Colonel Neild:

– Perhaps the Minister will draw attention to the fact that the train from South Australia only comes’ in less than an Hour before the Senate meets.’

Senator Clemons:

– Normally the Senate meets at 2.30 p.m., and not at 11 a.m.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I wish to inform Senator Stewart that the Clerk of the House Committee has drawn my attention to the fact that the vote from which the . money would come to provide the desired accommodation is not contained in this division of the schedule but in the first division which has been passed without a request.

Senator STEWART:
Queensland

– I . have no wish to obstruct the progress of the Bill ; but it appeared to me that I was making the request under a proper head. Does the vote under the head of the Joint House Committee refer to nothing but to refreshment rooms, sir?

The CHAIRMAN:

– If the honorable senator will consult the Journals of the Senate he will see that the first division is that to which expenditure on furniture, repairs and maintenance is debited.

Senator STEWART:

- Senator Clemons ought to know that the public is only too ready to fasten upon an utterance such as his and to point out how luxurious in their habits are the senators. All that I complained of was the insufficient accommodation for letters and papers. I did not want additional or bigger or more luxurious rooms or anything of that kind. I merely wanted better accommodation for the papers which it is absolutely necessary that I should have if I am to do properly the work I” was sent here to do. I venture to say that through the hands of every hon orable senator there pass during the course of a year a larger mass of correspondence - including a number of documents, many of which are of great importance - than are received by many a professional man. Yet all the accommodation we have on the ground floor is one small locker. Down stairs there is another locker to which’ we cannot run every minute when .we want a paper. If I had a house in Melbourne I should have a room fitted with pigeon holes and boxes for keeping these things in their proper order. I want more accommodation here for my papers. On this side there is a room which is taken up by the Inter-State Press, and which might very well be devoted to’ the uses of the Senate, I believe that on the other side there is a vacant room which might be occupied by the Inter-State Press. I direct the attention of the Chairman of the House Committee to that fact.

Request, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed vote agreed to.

External Affairs : Repatriation of Kanakas.

Divisions 11 to 16 (External Affairs De partment), £10,378.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– I should like to get some information from the Minister , concerning the item of £500 for the repatriation of Pacific Islanders. I desire to know whether it represents the last item of expenditure in regard to the deportation of the kanakas to their respective islands, and also how much has been spent in that direction up to the present time?

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– For the year 1906-7 the expenditure was .£8,015, which was made up in the following manner : - Passages to the islands, £2,165; coastal fares, £3,241 ; salaries to officers, £1,114; towards maintenance of islanders whilst awaiting shipping to Brisbane and other Queensland ports, £686 ; and miscellaneous items, £809. Up to the end of the last financial year 3,553 islanders had been returned to their homes. Those desiring to be taken to Fiji instead of to their homes have not their passages paid. The estimated expenditure for’ 1907-8 is £6,^00, and it is anticipated that when that sum has-been expended the whole process of repatriation will have been completed.

Senator Colonel Neild:

– Have they to pay their own fares’ to Fiji?

Senator KEATING:

– Yes, because we only provide for their repatriation. If they went to Fiji they would have to pay their passages.

Senator Colonel Neild:

– A beautiful state of things - to bring them here by force and fraud and then make them pay their fares from a country out of which they are forcibly thrust.

Senator KEATING:

– If they wanted to go to Honolulu or Vancouver, surely we would not be expected to pay their passages there !

Senator Colonel Neild:

– It is a national brutality.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Divisions 17to 20 (Attorney-General’ s Department), £2,375, agreed to.

Home Affairs : Electoral Office : Meteorological Branch.

Divisions 21 to 29 (Home Affairs Department) - “ Transferred “ £23,149, “ Other “£24,239.

Senator Colonel NEILD. (New South Wales) [12.13]. - On the item of £1,281 for the Electoral Office, I desire to ask the Minister whether the matter about which I wrote to him a week or ten days ago has yet received attention? I dare say that he recollects what I. refer to.

Senator Keating:

– I do. On the same day I received the letter of the honorable senator I sent the matter on to the Acting-Secretary of the Department with a request to call attention to it.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– Has the honorable senator received a reply ?

Senator Keating:

– No ; but if the honorable senator will mention the matter to me again before we adjourn to-day, I may be able to furnish him with a reply. I sent on the matter for immediate attention. Of course, he will realize that it is very difficult for a Minister in our position to keep in touch with all departmental affairs.

Senator MACFARLANE:
Tasmania

– At the beginning of the year the Commonwealth established a Meteorological Department, for which we are now asked to vote the sum of £4,000. Is that sum required for a period of two months, and, if so, how does it come to be so large?

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

. -Inone sense the honorable senator is quite correct in saying that the Meteorological Department has only just been started. Since the 1st January of this year six State Depart ments have been absorbed, and really the activities of the Federal Department have only been called intoplay since the beginning of the second part of this financial year. This sum of £4,000 is required for a period of two months, namely, £1,000 for salaries and £3,000 for contingencies. The provision on the Estimates for the whole year comes to £6,317 for salaries, and £9,679 for contingencies - making a total of £15,996. One-sixth of that would be between £2,000 and £3,000; but a sixth is not the proper proportion, inasmuch as the bulk of the expenditure has been incurred since the 1st January, and not since the 1st July last.

Senator Macfarlane:

– Does this sum include the cost of material and instruments? .

Senator KEATING:

– The sum of £9,679 includes postage, printing, and embossing paper, account and record books, and so forth. It also includes expenditure for temporary assistance, fuel, lighting and water, meteorological instruments, and allowances to country observers.

Senator Millen:

– Does the Department pay the Post Office for telegraphic reports, received and sent ?

Senator KEATING:

– There is a provision for postage and telegrams, but the ordinary weather telegrams are sent in accordance with a code, and by special arrangement with the Post and Telegraph Department.

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

– In connexion with the vote for the administration of the Electoral Act, I refer the Minister to the item contingencies in division 22 - £400. I wish to know whether any provision is here made for reimbursing candidates for expenditure which they have had to incur as the result of the defaults of officers of the Departments ?

Senator Keating:

– No ; none of the money included in this item covers anysuch provision. Whatever provision is made in that regard will be separately set out in supplementary Estimates.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Treasury : Government Printing Office : Administration : Allowances for Commonwealth Work : Employment of Boys : Minimum Wage.

Divisions 30 to 33 (Treasury Department), “Transferred” £2,404,” “ Other “ £2,338.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– In reference to the vote for the

Government Printer, £850, can the Minister give the Committee information as to the salaries to be paid, £100, and the contingencies £750, which make up the amount?

Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– -The pro-, vision for contingencies, £700, is a proportion of the proposed contingencies for the year, £4,306. The contingencies are made up of paper and parchment, £1,500, repairs to machinery, including lubricants, £50, type .£50, bookbinders’ material, &c., £3°°’ lighting and fuel £600, cartage £189, distribution of Hansard and parliamentary papers £1,250, postage and telegrams ,£50, office requisites, exclusive of writing paper and envelopes, £10, writing paper and envelopes £10, account, record, and other books, including cost of material therein, £15, other printing £75, petty cash expenditure £50, insurance of plant, machinery, and stock £163. That is the total provision for the year. The £750 now asked for is the proportion of that required for two months. The salaries, £100, asked for in this Bill are also a proportion of the total vote. They are made up of allowances to linotype engineer and Government Printer for services rendered, and wages and overtime.

Senator Findley:

– How much is the Government Printer to receive?

Senator KEATING:

– One hundred and fifty pounds for the year. The total is set out in the Estimates-in-Chief.

Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria

– When on a former Supply Bill, I mentioned that there were officers in the employ of the State Government who .were doing responsible and very intricate work for the Commonwealth,- I was told that whilst the’ Commonwealth Government’ was prepared to give them some recognition for their services, the State Government would not permit, these men to take the money, so that it had to be handed over to the State Treasurer.. I want to know if any allowance is being made by the Commonwealth Government to the Government Printer, and whether he receives that money direct from the Commonwealth, or whether it is handed over to the State Treasurer? If the Government Printer, who is in receipt of a salary of £800 a year from the State Government, receives the Commonwealth allowance whilst other officers do not, it is obviously unfair. The State Government takes up the posi- tion I understand that the time he occupies upon Commonwealth work is time that would otherwise be occupied in connexion with State work. I have previously called attention to the unsatisfactory .way in which this huge Department - mainly belonging to the Commonwealth from a property point of view. - is carried on.

Senator Dobson:

– The honorable senator has done it all before.

Senator FINDLEY:

– And I shall continue to do it in the interests of the Commonwealth. I want to awaken the interest o’f honorable senators in the way in which this office is being conducted, and how the expenditure is mounting up year in and year out. When I make a complaint I am told that when the Federal Capital is established we shall be’ able to remove all our property., amounting in value to £40,000, to the Capital city. I am quite sure that if the property involved belonged to honorable senators personally they would take far more interest in it.

Senator Dobson:

– We have had a complete answer about the whole matter.

Senator FINDLEY:

– We have not- yet had a satisfactory answer. Even in connexion with the employment of boys at the Government Printing Office, when I asked whether they were in the employment of the Commonwealth, the reply of the Minister - furnished by the Government Printer - was that boys of twelve and thirteen years of age preferred to work from halfpast four in the evening until five the next morning, with only half-an-hour’s spell for supper, rather than be engaged on day work. We were asked to believe that the boys liked accepting this kind of employment for 7s. a week. A few nights ago there was in the vicinity of this Chamber a little boy who ought to have been in bed, but he was kept running about with

Hansard proofs. I asked him how old he was. He said he was sixteen. I asked him when. He said “Last December.” The reason why he said he was sixteen was that I called attention to the fact some - time ago that there was a State law prohibiting the employment of boys under the age of sixteen in any industry in Victoria.

Senator Millen:

– Does the . honorable senator know that the boy was not sixteen?

Senator FINDLEY:

– I would take an affidavit that he was not more than fourteen.

Senator Millen:

– The honorable senator should not call the boy a liar simply because he thinks his age was not sixteen.

Senator FINDLEY:

– I called the attention of several honorable senators to the boy, and asked them how old they thought he was. Various senators expressed their opinion, but not one thought that the lad was more than fourteen years of age. Probably the poverty of the parents of this boy impelled him to say that he was sixteen years of age. I am satisfied that there are boys who are getting from 7s. to 8s. a week doing most responsible work in the Government Printing Office. I know, too, that there is nearly £40,000 worth of Commonwealth property there, and that no one has any responsibility in connexion with its wear and tear.

Senator Dobson:

– Does the honorable senator know that responsible work is being done in the office for 7s. a week?

Senator FINDLEY:

– I do.

Senator Dobson:

– I do not think that the honorable senator knows anything about it.

Senator FINDLEY:

– I spent many years of my life in a newspaper office, and know that the work which these little boys are doing in the Government Printing Office -namely, reading copy which the Hansard staff send over - is responsible work. That kind of work in the daily newspaper offices of Melbourne is performed by men. In the Age, Argus, and Herald offices it is done by men who receive £2 5s., £2 10s., and sometimes £2 15s. a week. What is more, there is always an incentive held out to these assistant readers, that in the course of time they will be promoted to be readers. The lads at the Government Printing Office ought not, under a State Act, to be employed when they are less than sixteen years of age. The Government Printer shelters himself behind the plea that the Wages Board Determination fixes the wages for boys doing that work at 7s. a week. The Board’s determination does nothing of the kind in respect of night work. It was never anticipated that any employer would employ boys to work long hours at a sweating wage at responsible work of this kind.

Senator Dobson:

– These remarks should be made to the State Government. Why should we be bothered with them ?

Senator FINDLEY:

– Whether the honorable senator cares to be bothered with them or not, I am going to have my say with reference to this printing office. It is a public scandal that the office is allowed to be conducted in such an unsatisfactory way.

Senator Colonel Neild:

– And that the Commonwealth is being permitted to set a State Act at defiance.

Senator FINDLEY:

– The honorable senator is right. These boys are under the age and are beingsweated. There are also men in that office being sweated. In the replies furnished to questions which I submitted to the Minister, the Government Printer said in effect - “ Wages Board or no Wages Board determination, I am to be the sole judge of a man’s capabilities, and he is to be paid what I think he is entitled to receive.” If any private employer openly defied an Act of Parliament in that way, there is not an honorable senator but would raise his voice in protest.

Senator Millen:

– Is the Government Printer not complying with the Wages. Board determination?

Senator FINDLEY:

– In certain respects he is not, and in effect claims to be the sole judge of whether a man is capable or not.

Senator Dobson:

– So he ought to be if he adheres to the minimum wage.

Senator FINDLEY:

– He does not adhere to the minimum wage in all respects. There are men in the Printing Office over the age of twenty-one, on the machines, doing Commonwealth work, who as feeders are entitled to 36s. a week, but who are getting under that sum.

Senator Lynch:

– Are they employed on Commonwealth printing only ?

Senator FINDLEY:

– Not wholly, but there are some men in that office employed almost solely on Commonwealth work. There is little or nohope for the boys employed as assistant readers.

Senator Millen:

– Have we a contract with the office, or do we pay them per piece?

Senator FINDLEY:

– The Lord only knows. If any honorable senator asked how much the production of the evidence and reports of the Tariff Commission cost the Commonwealth, the Government Printer would perhaps be able to tell him in round figures, but if he asked how much money was involved in paper, and what amount of time was expended in composing the evidence, and printing it on the machine, I warrant that the Government Printer would not be able to say.

Senator Dobson:

– The Minister of Home Affairs gave us the fullest information.

Senator FINDLEY:

– The honorable senator is the most easily satisfied man in regard to Commonwealth expenditure, but

I wager that he is more painstaking and inquiring in connexion with his own. I. am speaking of an office that I know something about. I worked there myself at periods and have an intimate knowledge of the manner in which it is conducted - a manner most unsatisfactory so far as the Commonwealth is concerned. Every other Commonwealth Department is officered by Commonwealth employes, but here is an office carried on by the State Government Printer, whose first consideration is the State. I have been told that he naturally hastens on the work required for State Departments, and that the Commonwealth work–

Senator Dobson:

– No.

Senator FINDLEY:

– Why not? He has no obligation or responsibility to the Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth work to him is a secondary consideration.

Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– To listen to this discourse, would it not be wise to have a quorum? [Quorum formed.”]

Senator FINDLEY:

– The chief consideration of the State Government Printer is for the State which employs him. His first duty therefore is to get out the work required for the State as expeditiously as possible. Then the Commonwealth is considered. Not infrequently, because of that clumsy and unbusiness-like arrangement, much of the Commonwealth work is done after the ordinary day’s work is supposed to be over, with the result that the Commonwealth has to pay overtime rates for it.

Senator Dobson:

– It is done promptly and well.

Senator FINDLEY:

– If it were a fair arrangement the State should pay an equal proportion for the overtime work, but I am told that it does not. As far as possible any overtime charges from a State viewpoint are avoided, but little or no consideration is shown for the Commonwealth in that regard. Men are engaged working overtime, and of course are paid overtime rates, Why the Government should hesitate about leasing a suitable building forthwith - there are many suitable in close proximity to the House - and transferring to it all the Commonwealth machinery, type, and appliances from the State Government Printing Office, where for years and years there has been more or less friction and dissatisfaction, passes my comprehension. If the Commonwealth Government moved in that direction, we should have an up-to-date office worked on business lines. It would be much more economical and much more satisfactory, not only to the employes and to the other Commonwealth Departments, but also to the taxpayers of the Commonwealth, who are paying too much for the printing done at present in that unbusinesslike office.

Senator KEATING:
Minister, of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist

– The ,£150 on the Estimates-in-Chief to be paid to the Government Printer of Victoria is not paid direct by the Commonwealth to that officer. It is paid to the Victorian State Government, and we hope and desire that the State Government will pay it to the Government Printer ; but so far we understand they have not done so. With regard to the general arrangement between the Commonwealth and the Victorian State Government in regard to Commonwealth printing, we have a provision on the EstimatesinChief for “ wages to compositors, proportion of salaries of the State classified staff at the Government Printing Office, Melbourne, and for bookbinders, machine men, warehouse assistants, labourers, and others.” An account is taken of each man’s time in respect of both Commonwealth and State work, at the end of the month an adjustment is made, and the Commonwealth pays its proportion, the State paying its own. The Commonwealth also undertakes to provide a portion of the stores and other requirements of the Government Printing Office, based upon its proportion of the work done. There is another provision upon the EstimatesinChief of £500 for the whole year to be paid in gratuities to State officers engaged in excess of office hours. That money is paid direct by the Commonwealth Treasurer to the State officers, by arrangement with the State Government. I noticed the other day that some of the officers of that Department waited in a deputation upon Mr. Bent, the Premier of Victoria, and that he promised that officers who had complied with certain conditions as to term of service in the printing office, and were carrying out certain work, should henceforth have their salaries raised. Under present crcumstances, I think the arrangement as between Commonwealth and State is satisfactory, inasmuch as we get our work expeditiously and very well done.

Senator Findley:

– It would be much better done if we had an office of our own.

Senator KEATING:

– The honorable senator should remember that there would be the difficulty of transferring that office hereafter, when the Commonwealth Parliament is removed to the permanent Seat of Government.

Senator Findley:

– If you move in the next five years you will have little or no property to shift, although it cost £40,000.

Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales

Senator Findley’s importunity is beginning to arouse a little interest in me as to the mysterious doings in the Victorian Government Printing Office. The honorable senator says it is a fact that the Government Printer is paying less than the rate of wages fixed by the Wages Board.

Senator Findley:

– In some directions.

Senator MILLEN:

– If it is true in the case of only one boy, it is wrong. Is the Minister prepared to admit or deny that statement? Can he state whether the Government Printing Office charge the Commonwealth for each job individually completed for us?

Senator Keating:

– No.

Senator MILLEN:

-Then a lump sum must be paid for the lot.

Senator Keating:

– I explained the arrangement just now. An account is taken of each employe’s time, and at the end of the month it is known exactly to an hour or less how long he was engaged upon Commonwealth or State work. The Commonwealth pays itsproportion of the wages. It also, as I explained, provides a certain proportion of the stores and requirements of the office.

Senator MILLEN:

– Whilst the Minister’s explanation is clear enough, it does not indicate a very satisfactory arrangement. Is any charge made against the Commonwealth in proportion to the rent or cost of the printing office?

Senator Keating:

– I do not think so, but we provide a portion of the stores, proportionate to the work done for us.

Senator MILLEN:

– I am not sure that a much better plan than the present could not have been devised. If hands are employed there at less than the Wages Board scale, it can only be referred to as a sweating shop. If the work is carried on in the way indicated by Senator Findley, the Commonwealth Government is to some extent a partner in the concern, and cannot escape its responsibility by saying that all it does is to foot the bill. A portion of the money paid by this Government goes to pay the wages which, if Senator Findlev’s statement is unanswered, are below the rates fixed by the Wages Board. This

Government has a moral and business right to make representations to the Government Printer upon that point. If the Government Printer liked to extend the system which he at present adopts of paying less than the recognised rates of wages - as he could do - surely there would come a point at which this Government would protest? Failing any notice of their protest they could transfer the work to some one else. I venture to say that there are a dozen firms in Melbourne that would jump at the chance of securing the Commonwealth printing work on the terms on which it is done by the Victorian Government Printer. I suppose that no one supervises the keeping of the time sheet’s, and though I have no doubt that they are kept honestly we can easily understand that through want of supervision a little laxity might creep in. I think the responsibility is on the Government to inform the Government Printer of Victoria that all work done for the Commonwealth is to be done by hands receiving wages fixed by the Wages -Board, since any lower wage would be a sweating wage.

Senator Keating:

– Lower wages are not paid. That assurance was. given to the Senate by my honorable colleague on the authority of the report from the Victorian Government Printer.

Senator MILLEN:

– My remarks have been based on the assumption that Senator Findley’s statement is correct. When it was first made it was denied, but when it was reiterated the Minister admitted that it was true of a period some time ago, but said that an alteration had been made. I understood Senator Findley to-day to again say that boys are employed in the Victorian Government Printing Office at lower wages than those fixed by the Wages Board.

Senator Findley:

– I said that the Wages Board never fixed any wage for the night work of boys employed as assistant readers, and the Government Printer has shelteredhimself under the plea that the wage fixed for day work must be the wage paid for night work as well.

Senator MILLEN:

– I wish to know whether any one is employed in the Government Printing Office at wages less than those fixed by the Wages Board.

Senator Findley:

– Yes.

Senator MILLEN:

– The Minister for Home Affairs has reminded me that the Vice-President of the Executive Council recently informed the Senate that, although it may not have been so in the past,everything is all right now.

Senator Findley:

– Then it must have been made right within the last few days.

Senator MILLEN:

– The statement made by the Vice-President of the Executive Council was made more than a few days ago. The obligation is upon the Government to see that .work done for the Commonwealth is’ paid for at rates regarded by the proper authority as equitable. It is hypocrisy to pass legislation insisting that private employers shall give fair wages and conditions if we are careless as to the wages and conditions of those who are working for ourselves.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Trade and Customs : Sunshine Harvester Works Employes : Application to Arbitration Court : Reimbursement of Expenses.

Divisions 37 to 45 (Trade and Customs Department), “Transferred” £42,998, Other “ £8,806.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [12.49]. - I move -

That the House of Representatives be requested to reduce the proposed vote, Division 37, subdivision i, “ Central Staff, salaries ^940,” by ^,’100.

I move this request in order to bring before the Committee in a more definite manner than by mere speech making the deplorable condition of affairs in connexion with a matter -which has been before the Senate on many occasions. I refer to the litigation undertaken by a union of persons employed in the Sunshine Harvester Works. I do not propose to discuss any litigation at present going on, but to refer to by-gone litigation in which the work people of certain harvester works were compelled to enforce the law through the inaction of the Customs Department. The law would apparently have remained a dead letter had it not been for the efforts of private individuals who formed a union amongst themselves, and took proceedings in the Arbitration Court. Litigation, which is now at an end, ensued, with the consequence that these humble members of the community have forced upon an unwilling Department the imposition of the obligations of the law. Certain procedure followed on the part of the Government that is now the subject of litigation, and to which I can make only very slight reference. There are proceedings going on in the Law Courts now to recover Excise duties stipulated for in an Act passed by the Commonwealth Legislature, and this endeavour to recover duties would clearly not be taking place had it not been for the by-gone suit to which I have referred. The union expended their little all and incurred obligations in excess of their funds in order to secure the enforcement of a law which the Department of Trade and Customs did not, anc would not, carry out or assist to carry out themselves. I move my request in the hope that if carried it will’ bring the Department of Trade and Customs to some sense of its obligations to enforce the law. In the circumstances the least the Government and the Department can do is to reimburse the workers to whom I have referred the money they have been out of pocket in doing for the Government and the Commonwealth that which the Government have been too supine to do for themselves. What is the Department of Trade and Customs ‘ established for but to carry out the provisions of the laws which come within the purview of the Department? For a year or more it would not carry out its statutory obligations, and these poor workers - and I am sorry to say they are poor, because of their miserable pay, and because a number of them have been discharged since they endeavoured to carry out the law - are made the scapegoat for the Commonwealth Government. It is a contemptible position for any Ministry to occupy. Instead of doing their duty they left it to humble members of the community who have dissipated their funds in the vain effort to secure justice. That they were right is doubly shown first by the decision of the Court in their favour, and secondly by the fact that the Government are now taking belated action to enforce the law. It is abundantly true that this union of workers acting iri the best interest of the whole community discharged a high public duty which the Government not only neglected but actually refused to discharge. It is the bounden duty of the Government to see that the money expended by the members of . this union is made good to them. It is their duty to come to Parliament and ask for a grant to discharge the legal expenses of those who did the work . which the Ministry did not, and would not, do. I say they would not do their duty in this matter because the records of both Houses of Parliament show that time after time appeals were made to the Government to see that the obligations of the Statute were imposed. Senator Findley, myself, and other honorable senators have stood up in this chamber and made the most urgent appeals to the Government to give the necessary assistance to see that the Statute was obeyed. There was always some excuse given for the neglect to take action. But since private individuals Have done what the Government professed themselves unable to do, they cannot for a moment longer maintain their attitude of worse than indifference. If it is right for the Government to maintain a suit for the recovery of these Excise duties it is equally right that they should pay the cost of the preliminary investigations in the Arbitration Court which were essential to the action they are now taking. They could not be taking the action in which they are engaged at the present moment had it not been for the action taken by the Harvester Employes Union.

Senator Findley:

– If they get £20,000 of Excise revenue they will have to thank the union for having moved them.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– Most decidedly. If the litigation now in progress ends in favour of the Government they will be unable to thank themselves, to preen their feathers and to say, “ How excellently we have carried out our obligations as an Administration,” but they will have to thank the employes of the harvester works for having performed the service which they neglected to perform.

Senator Lynch:

– Suppose the employers had made the first move to test the efficacy of the Act, would the honorable senator say that they should be compensated ?

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– No parallel can be drawn between an attempt to enforce the law and an attempt to evade it. The honorable senator asks me what I would do if the employers had tried to void the law. What I am talking about is the effort made to secure the enforcement of the law which is a totally different thing. Of course I should not come here and ask the Government to pay the cost of any firm that tried to escape the obligations of the law. I am asking that they shall bear the burden of the initial proceedings, the result of which is to be found in the litigation now being maintained at the cost of the Commonwealth.

Sitting suspended from1 to 2.15 p.m.

Senator Colonel NEILD:

– Before the luncheon adjournment . I intimated that I had further remarks to make in support of the request I have moved, but it has been pointed out to me that the train to South Australia will start at the expiration of two hours and as other senators wish to speak, and as I contemplate submitting a similar request on a later item, I shall content myself with asking the Committee to agree to a reduction of this vote for the Central Staff of the Department of Trade and Customs by way of emphasizing its opinion that the persons employed in the Sunshine Harvester Works should have made good to them the moneys that they have expended in doing that necessary preliminary legal work which the Government failed to do, which it has not been at theexpense of doing, but which was essential to the proceedings that it is now taking in connexion with the recovery of a large sum alleged to be due as Excise.

Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist

– I understand that Senator Neild has submitted this request for the purpose of indicating the desire of the Committee that the Government should pay certain legal expenses. It will be remembered by honorable senators that this matter has been discussed here ad nauseam.

Senator Colonel Neild:

– Not this aspect of it.

Senator BEST:

– Practically this aspect of the matter has been discussed here ad nauseam. The position which the Government took up with regard to the Excise has been stated fully by myself in response to inquiries made from time to time. The legal position was a subject of doubt, and, as my honorable friends know, it was determined that the whole issue should be referred to the High Court. When its decision is obtained the Government will announce exactly what it intends to do with regard to the subject-matter of this request and all other matters. It is quite impossible at this juncture to deal with this individual aspect of the matter. It must be dealt with comprehensively and as a whole. First there is the question of the amount which should be paid by the manufacturers as Excise. Secondly, there is the question as to the payment of fair and reasonable wages to the employes since the 1st January, 1907. And thirdly, there is the question which was raised incidentally by my honorable friend a little time ago as to the expense to which the employes’ union had been put. We as a Government gave the Senate distinctly to understand that when the decision of the High Court as to the true legal and constitutional position had been ascertained, the matter would be dealt with as a whole, and not in a piecemeal way as is now suggested. I appeal to Senator Neild that the position I have put is a fair and reasonable one, and that it is not a just thing on his part, particularly while the whole subject is sub judice, to suggest to the Committee that one aspect of it should be dealt with in the way indicated by his request. 1 ask honorable senators to accept the assurance of the Government. My honorable friend, as an old parliamentarian, will recognise that the Government could take up no other position at this juncture.. With an assurance that the matter will not escape consideration, I think I am only making a reasonable request when I invite him to withdraw his proposal and not to delay the passage of the Supply Bill, which he must know is urgent.

Senator ST LEDGER:
Queensland

– I have a great deal of sympathy with the request of Senator Neild. Some time ago I drew the attention of the Senate to a statement which was made by the Minister of Trade and Customs at a dinner given in Sydney by the Customs officials. He was reported in the press as having said that it was not anticipated by the people that after the Federation was established the States would keep up their local Legislatures at the same expense and strength. He made some remarks which I submit were entirely out of place, and in my opinion derogatory to the dignity of a Federal Minister, as well as needlessly reflecting upon the conduct of the State Parliaments and State Ministers. The matters to which he referred are absolutely under the control of the States. If the Commonwealth Ministry or a single Federal Minister wishes to enlarge the jurisdiction or increase the influence of the Commonwealth, the way to achieve that object is not by raising a feeling of hostility between the States and the Commonwealth. In matters where the States are supreme no Minister for the Commonwealth, or for that matter, no member of the Federal Parliament should intrude.

The CHAIRMAN:

– On this division of the schedule the honorable senator is entitled to discuss matters of administration, but not the utterances of a Minister on the subject of unification.

Senator St Ledger:

– In that case, sir, I have no more to say at the present time.

Request negatived.

Senator Colonel NEILD (New South Wales) [2.25]. - I was compelled to leave the chamber a moment ago on a public matter, and in my absence the request I had moved went by the board. I shall bring the matter forward again at the earliest opportunity in connexion with any Supply Bill which comes to the Chamber.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Defence Forces : Horses : Salaries of Military Officers : Promotion of Officers, South Australia: Defence Scheme : Compulsory Military Training : Contingencies : Corps of Guides : Warlike Stores.

Divisions 46 to 188 *(Defence Department), "* Transferred " £99,236, " Other" £4,549. {: #debate-4-s22 .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales -- I desire to obtain a little information from the Minister on what is probably a matter of some importance. I observe that in a question on the notice-paper today it is stated that at a military encampment in South 'Australia all the horses for the Field Artillery and a number of the horses for the Light Horse Regiment were rendered unfit for service . during the remaining period of the camp. It seems rather a lamentable state of affairs that we cannot send even a small section of our forces into camp for practice without having practically the whole of their horses incapacitated. It does not inspire one with a feeling of great confidence if in ordinary training for a few weeks our horses are going to be thrown practically into the hospital. It is hardly to be assumed that an enemy would kindly consent to suspend operations until we had obtained fresh horses or doctored the sick ones. I desire to know if the Minister has any information on the subject to which I have referred. {: #debate-4-s23 .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist -- Personally I have no information on the subject. The details referred to in the question on the notice-paper came under my notice for the first time this morning just before the Senate met, and in the limited time at my disposal it was impossible for me to get into communication with the Minister of Defence. I have no doubt that when the question is repeated, as it will be on Wednesday next, my honorable friend's desire for information will be satisfied. {: #debate-4-s24 .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales -- The answer to the question on the notice-paper will not supply the special information which I desire. I shall be glad if he will ascertain the cause of this incapacity on the part of the horses at the encampment. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator Keating: -- I shall have an inquiry made. **Senator. Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [2.29]. - Pursuant to the intimation I gave I move - >That the House of Representatives be requested to reduce the proposed vote, Division 46, subdivision 1, " Central Administration, £3,600," by£100. I submit this request as a method of indicating my and I hope our objection to the action of the Department in refusing to pay certain officers the salaries provided by-law. As I went into this matter fairly fully last night I do not intend to occupy any time in repeating my statements. I brought forward the case of a captain on the permanent staff and the case of a staff officer of cadets, both officers in New South Wales. In each case the officers are in receipt of a very much lower rate of pay than that positively assigned to them by the law. I, for one, take the strongest objection to either the Military Board or the Minister - I care not which, or whether it. is both of them - setting aside the Statute law of the country, andpaying lower rates than are provided . by Statute. When I say " by Statute," I am sure that the lawyers present will admit the accuracy of my statement that a regulation issued by the Governor-General in Council under and by the authority of the Act becomes practically Statute law. It becomes part of the Act to which it pertains, and is necessary to the application of the Act. I most strongly reprehend the practice that has been growing up. **Senator Pearce** last evening enlightened us in a manner that must have been astounding to every one as to what has been going on in the Post and Telegraph Department. The Government has been setting the law at defiance by insisting on paying inferior salaries to those prescribed by the law. When a Government in such matters as this deliberately sets the law at defiance what is the use of passing Acts of Parliament at all? {: #debate-4-s25 .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist -- I hope that **Senator Neild** will not press this request. Iam aware that last night he dealt with the matters to which he has now again referred. Except for the fact that the Senate met this morning, I should have been able to make inquiries as to the case which he has stated. But the Senate did not adjourn last night till after 11 o'clock, and met again this morning at 11. There was necessarily some preliminary work to do to-day, and I was not therefore able to pursue the inquiries that I desired to make. I hope, however, that the honorable senator will give me an opportunity at a later date to furnish information which I feel sure will be satisfactorily explanatory of the circumstances to which he has referred. **Senator Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [2.33]. - I point out that these matters have been the subject of correspondence between myself and the Minister of Defence for some time. There is no novelty about them. All that the Minister of Defence will do is to promise that consideration shall be given to a paltry £25 increase, whereas the amount that should be paid to comply with the law is at the very least £150. The regulations which I quoted last night, and to which I have made reference again to-day, were supplied to me quite recently direct by the Secretary to the Department of Defence. So that there can be no possible misapprehension about the nature of the case. But as time is short, and as evidently honorable senators are tired with their Tariff work, I will withdraw the request in the hope that my honorable and learned friend, the Minister of Home Affairs, will use his influence in the matter. Will he give a promise to use his influence to see that the law is complied with ? {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator Keating: -- I will do that. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -Under the circumstances I willingly withdraw my request. Request, by leave, withdrawn. {: #debate-4-s26 .speaker-K3G} ##### Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP -- I should like tohave some information as to a question put to the Minister by **Senator Guthrie** a few days ago in relationto the Defence Forces in South Australia. There are two vacancies for the position of **Major in** that State. I understand that two captains went up for examination. One passed and the other failed. I wish to know whether it is the policy of the Government to allow any officer to refuse to recommend an officer who passes his examination for the promotion to which he is entitled, and to wait until the other man has passed in order that the two may be promoted together? It is not democratic. Why should we make fish of one and flesh of another? Is it fair that the Commandant of South Australia should be. allowed to say to the Minister of Defence, " Captain Dolman is an excellent captain. He has passed his examination. Captain Stapleton failed. But we propose to favour Captain Stapleton, and to delay the promotion of Captain Dolman by refusing to recommend him " ? Will the Government tolerate that sort of thing? There has been a great deal of correspondence in reference to the case. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel Neild: -- Captain Dolman need not submit to such treatment. {: .speaker-KTF} ##### Senator McGregor: -- He has to. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel Neild: -- Not a bit of it. {: .speaker-K3G} ##### Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP -- Why should he be insulted in this way? It appears that the one gentleman is popular with the powers that be, who consequently will not recommend the promotion of the other, who, however, they admit has proved himself to be an excellent officer. I hope that the Government will see that justice is done. I am sorry that **Senator Guthrie** is temporarily absent from the chamber, because he has all the information up .to date with reference to the case, and could have presented the facts in much better form than I have been able to do. I hope, however, that the Minister will give us a reason as to why this sort of thing is allowed. **Senator Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [2.40]. - .Perhaps I can throw a little light on the subject, although I must admit that I know nothing of the circumstances except what I have heard stated by **Senator Guthrie** and **Senator W.** Russell. There appear *to* be two vacancies for positions of **Major in** some regiment in South Australia. One captain has qualified, another has not. I should infer that, for some reason or other, the promotion of the officer who has qualified is being delayed in order that the officer who has not qualified by passing his examination may be enabled *to* retain his seniority. There cannot be anything in the matter but the mere question of seniority. According to all military usage, however, Captain Dolman has a remedy. If his Commanding Officer will not recommend him for promotion, he has the right of appeal. He. can appeal to the State Commandant in the first instance, and if that officer is against him he can appeal to head-quarters, his final appeal being to the Minister of Defence. **Senator W.** Russell. - He has been badly treated by the State Commandant. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -- Then he has another remedy [provided by the law. Unfortunately, there is often more of personality than of law in these cases. Still, Captain Dolman cannot be deprived of his right of appeal, which is absolutely given to him by the law. {: .speaker-K3G} ##### Senator W RUSSELL:
SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP -- Apparently the Minister of Defence has not the courage to do his duty. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -- I know nothing about the merits of the case, but am simply pointing out that military law provides for appeals against what may be regarded as acts of injustice. In the cases that I brought before the Committee, appeals have been made and the officers in question have done all that the law permits them to do'. I should not have brought the cases forward but for that fact. In saying this I am not, of course, finding fault with **Senator W.** Russell's action. I hope that what he has said will bear good fruit, and that if any injustice has been done the wrong will be righted. I have had an opportunity within the last few hours of discussing this very question - of delaying one man to accommodate some one else who has not passed his examination - with perhaps the highest authority I could discuss it with, although the discussion had nothing to do with any of the cases that have been mentioned here. I therefore feel that I am well posted in what I am saving. {: #debate-4-s27 .speaker-JVC} ##### Senator DOBSON:
Tasmania -- The division, " Cadet Corps (New South Wales) contingencies," reminds me that I have before the Senate a Bill to amend the Defence Act. Since the Prime Minister's defence scheme was made public I have been exercised in my mind as to whether I should withdraw that Bill or not. I am satisfied that I can do little good by persisting with it against the wish of Ministers, and therefore my trouble has been whether I should submit to the Senate, and go to a division upon, the principle of a compulsory or universal training for boys between the ages of 12 and 18, or be content with the scheme that **Mr. Deakin** has issued. I think I shall do well to ask the Senate to vote upon that very important principle without regard to what happens to my Bill, because the principle may or may not be adopted in the Government scheme. Although I have been hammering away at this point for the last five years I have never got the Senate to a division upon it. The Prime Minister's scheme appears to have one very great defect- {: #debate-4-s28 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order ! The honorable senator spoke to me about discussing that question at this stage. While I desire to give the honorable senator every consideration it appears to me that if I were to allow him to discuss the principle of the Prime Minister's scheme as it affects the Cadet Force in all its bearings on this division, I could not refuse to allow other honorable senators to discuss other phases of military policy on' other divisions. This' division refers merely to contingencies for the New South Wales Cadet Corps. {: .speaker-JVC} ##### Senator Dobson: -- Is there any other division on which I can" deal with the question ? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I think not. I feel that I should be stretching the Standing Orders to an unwarrantable and dangerous extent if I allowed the honorable senator to discuss the question on this division. {: .speaker-JVC} ##### Senator Dobson: -- The point of order which you, **Mr. Chairman,** have raised, occurred to me, and therefore I spoke to you about it. Whilst I am inclined to agree that strictly what I desire to do is out of order, I understood that the practice adopted in- the Senate ever since it was a Senate was that if there was an item in the Supply Bill which in any way related to a subject, the whole of that subject could be discussed upon it. I have never before heard of an honorable senator being called to order because he was opening up the whole of a subject which was dealt with again and again in a Supply Bill. I have heard you and other Chairmen call honorable senators to order for discussing the schedule as though it were the first reading, and dealing with grievances- {: .speaker-K8W} ##### Senator Turley: -- Is the honorable senator in order in discussing your ruling, unless he moves that it be dissented from? {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable senator is not strictly in order, although I have not so far given a definite ruling. I merely told the honorable senator my opinion. I think I shall have to ask him to refrain from discussing the question at this stage. He had his opportunity on the first or second reading, but this is merely an administrative item and obviously involves no question of policy. {: .speaker-JVC} ##### Senator Dobson: -- I submit to your ruling. {: #debate-4-s29 .speaker-K7L} ##### Senator STORY:
South Australia -- Will the Minister explain why so large a sum is provided for contingencies? There are two subdivisions in these divisions, one for pay and the other for contingencies. The amount for contingencies is at least eight times that for pay in regard to the cadet forces generally. Do Ministers expect a large expansion of this branch of the service? Why is the amount not put down to some definite purpose, instead of being covered by so vague a term as ' ' contingencies " ? {: #debate-4-s30 .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist -- The item must be read-in conjunction with the EstimatesinChief, in which the corresponding division reads :- " Subdivision No. 1 - Contingencies, general expenses and allowances under regulations, " £600. " That ih the amount for 'the whole year. The general principle followed in the Estimates is to divide the divisions into " salaries " and "contingencies." Practically all expenses other than salaries come under the heading of "contingencies." Under the previous division, No. 48, " Permanent Staff and Militia," the pay for the year 1907-8 is £3,652, and contingencies amount to £2,300. Such things as rations, uniforms, band allowance, travelling expenses, incidental and petty cash expenditure, office requisites, printing, warlike stores, prizes (gunnery, torpedo, and musketry), continuous training, and small arms ammunition, are included under " Contingencies " in that division. In the Estimates-in-Chief each item with its amount is set out, but to do that in every Supply Bill would mean an unnecessary multiplication of printing, and it would be difficult, to allot to each item in contingencies the exact amount required for the period covered by the Bill. Consequently they are grouped as contingencies, and the objects upon which the money is likely to be spent may be ascertained by reference to the corresponding division in the EstimatesinChief. {: #debate-4-s31 .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria .- I see in division 107 a proposed vote of £60 for a corps of guides in Victoria. I have noticed that similar votes are asked for to be expended in the other States, and I should like to obtain some information concerning the corps. What is its membership? In what capacity will the corps be employed, and what will be the cost per annum to the Commonwealth ? {: #debate-4-s32 .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist -- The vote to which the honorable senator has referred represents a portion of the preliminary expense which it is proposed to provide for the establishment of corps of guides in the different States. I understand that very excellent work was done by corps of guides in the recent South African war. Speaking entirely as a layman, I believe the idea is to organize some bodies of men who will keep themselves in touch with the topographical features of the country, such as surveyors, bushmen, and others, who, having a knowledge of the country, will be able to advise as to the places through which troops may be taken. {: .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator Findley: -- Are they to render voluntary services, or to be compensated for the work they do? {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- I am notin a position to say off-hand exactly what is intended. The Minister of Defence has been in consultation with some of his officers and competent individuals throughout the service, who are enthusiastic about this matter, and it is proposed to organize a body of men to be known as the Australian Corps of Guides, who will be familiar with the physical conditions of the country. They will probably comprise surveyors, bushmen, and others, who know where the watercourses are, the best places for encampments, the best routes for the transfer of troops, and other matters of immense importance to an army when engaged in actual field operations. {: #debate-4-s33 .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria .- The information given so far is acceptable, but is scarcely sufficiently definite. It appears that anybody who has bush experience,or some knowledge of surveying that may be regarded as useful to the Defence Department, is to be enrolled to establish an organization similar to that which we are told is established in other parts of the world. But what is this going to cost? What has it cost up to the present time? What are the duties which these corps are expected to perform ? Will they be under any discipline, or is every Jack, Tom, and Harry to be admitted a member of the corps ? {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator Keating: -- The vote is only for preliminary expenses in connexion with the establishment of the corps. {: .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY: -- Yes; but at its inception, and before the members of the corps get into their marching gait, I want to know whether they are to be responsible or irresponsible persons. These corps are to be established in each of the States, and I wish to know what is to be the strength of each State corps, and what they have cost the Department up to the present time. Is there to be any limitation to the number who may join a corps, and what is the anticipated expenditure per annum in connexion with what is apparently a military innovation ? {: #debate-4-s34 .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN:
New South Wales -- I am not at this juncture very much concerned as to what these corps of guides are to cost. It is not possible with the scanty information obtainable, and the limited time at our disposal, to thoroughly investigate the matter. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel Neild: -- The same may be said of every money vote submitted to Parliament since Federation was established. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- That is perfectly true, but I am making these remarks on the assumption that before long, unless the Government discard the idea, the Senate will be given an opportunity to consider the defence scheme in its entirety. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel Neild: -- Which one? {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- The one which happens to be uppermost in the mind of the Minister at the moment when he decides to consult Parliament. What I wish to say is that in this matter, whoever is responsible for the proposal to establish these corps of guides, has mixed up two entirely distinct things. To call the new force a corps of guides suggests that it is to be formed of expert bushmen, competent to lead troops through generally unknown parts of the country where an opposing force may be operating. But the Minister has said that they are to be comprised, amongst others, of expert surveyors, who could not guide a man down the main street of a big city. Men of this class should be associated with a staff of intelligence officers, and not with bushmen, having sufficient military knowledge to make them useful for this kind of work. Who ever heard of asking men who may be competent draftsmen and excellent surveyors to do the kind of work which is indicated by the name proposed to be given to the new regiment ? I believe that there is ample room for the formation of a corps of guides to perform the functions indicated by the name, but I protest against an attempt to box up with such men, men whose work should be confined to the office, and who might properly be engaged in mapping out roads and indicating the character of the country through which troops must pass. Common-sense indicates that the basis on which we are informed that these corps are to be formed is altogether too comprehensive. . **Senator Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [3.9]. - I should like to say a word on this matter. The title which has been adopted for the proposed new corps is about the most pretentious that has yet been attempted in Australia. It is the title of the most distinguished regiment in the French Army. I am certain that the great French Regiment of the Guides does not represent either bush-whacking or mapdrawing. I agree with **Senator Millen** that, so far as we can gather, it is proposed to mix up two things that are totally dissimilar. A number of the gentlemen who may be expected to perform the professional part of the work of the corps might be most usefully employed at their desks, because I venture to say that there is not in the possession of the Military Department of the Commonwealth a single decent military map from which any man could manoeuvre 500 troops 10 miles out of any capital city in the Commonwealth. I venture to say that the only reconnaissance maps that we have are so many years old . that they do not bear on their face the existing tram lines that have been in operation for ten or twelve years. I go further, and say that when a few months ago I wanted to conduct some field operations between Port Jackson and Botany Bay, I had to draw my own maps as best I could from ordinary road maps, and have them duplicated for use by the different company commanders. The whole Military Department of the State was unable to provide a map indicating so plain a feature of the ground as the tram lines that run through the country. It is all very well to establist a military organization apparently to guide the operations of troops, but we want common-place maps in the first instance. {: .speaker-KTF} ##### Senator McGregor: -- How can we get them without preliminary surveys? {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -- They can be obtained at very small cost from every publisher of maps,or from the Survey Offices of the differentStates. There is no need to establish a military force in order to obtain a few maps. But, everlastingly in the Commonwealth, we are straining, at something huge whilst we overlook the small details of the business, the absence of attention to which render the larger movements inefficacious. {: .speaker-KTF} ##### Senator McGregor: -- That is how the honorable senator was beaten at Chowder Bay. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -- If **Senator McGregor** would confine his interjections to something which had some remote semblance of common-sense, we could applaud him vigorously, but when he sits in his corner and merely lets go silly propositions that haveabsolutely.no connexion with anything, except it be the emanations of a disordered brain, he does not assist the progress ofdebate. Instead of spending money on this sort of thing, it would be much better if we spent it to secure for Australia some rifles with which it would be possible to hit a target. Let me tell the Minister that the Ordnance Stores Department is serving out rifles with which well-known good shots are unable even to hit the target, let alone the bull's-eye. The Minister seems to be amused, but I say that it is a terrible thing that the Ordnance Store should be serving out rifles with an intimation that if the member of the Defence Force who receives one uses it with ball cartridge, he will do so at his own risk. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- Is the honorable senator referring to part of those upon which we are supposed to rely for war purposes? {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -- Undoubtedly. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I ask the honorable senator not to pursue that line of argument, because the question to which he refers is covered by division 109. {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel NEILD: -- I did not want to make a second speech, sir, and I thought that I would be in order in saying that it would be better to spend the money on sound, decent rifles than upon getting this new corps, of whose duties we have no knowledge, and whose circumstances are beyond our ken. It may run into a very large experimental expenditure, because there is a large air of novelty about the affair . I affirm that if the same money were spent on decent rifles and decent military maps, it would be very much better, because, as it is, I dare swear that at the Easter camp the forces will be trying to parade over ground in respect of which they have not a map amongst them, not even a map showing the roads. The country between Sydney and Botany is a small district, and the Military Department in Sydney has not a map of it which shows the roads, let alone the tram lines. {: #debate-4-s35 .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria .- I desire to elicit some information with regard to the item of £254 for warlike stores for the Queensland Military Forces. I shall be pleased if the Minister will tell me what is meant by the term " warlike stores." {: #debate-4-s36 .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING:
Ministerof Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist -- The warlike stores referred to in the item include camp equipment, artillery stores, and Morris tubes and appurtenances. Proposed vote agreed to. Postmaster- General' s Department - Administration : Need of Public Inquiry : Tenders for Stores " Duty Paid." Divisions 189 to 195 *(Postmaster-Gene ral s Department). "* Transferred " £491,903, "Other" £2,610. {: #debate-4-s37 .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator CHATAWAY:
Queensland -- I do not think that we can allow the item of £1,680 for the central staff of the Postmaster-General's Department to pass without endeavouring in some way or other to focusthe opinion which was so freely expressed here last night with reference to its general administration, or maladministration. We were furnished with evidence of seething discontent and, according to the official paper of the employes,in one State, a threatened dislocation of the service. We have their demands for an inquiry by a Select Committee or a Royal Commission, and it is only reasonable that we should get from the Government a statement as to what it proposes to do to meet a state of affairs which appears to be getting worse and worse every day. I need hardly remind honorable senators of the very remarkable statement which you, sir, produced here last night. It may be regarded as only one of many illustrations of the great evils which call for remedy in the Department. We have also had numerous complaints from the public concerning the delivery of mails and letters, and the transmission of telegrams. In Brisbane, there is a large daily newspaper, which every day gives the time at which a message was lodged in Sydney, and the time at which it was delivered in Brisbane. That is not a thing which an ordinary reputable newspaper will do. But this newspaper has adopted that plan for some weeks, showing that at night practically it never gets a press message without the occurrence of a delay extending from three-quarters of an hour to as much as three or four hours in its delivery at the office. That is a standing proof of the incompetence of the Department in that respect. It is only fair that Ministers should tell us what they propose to do with a view to remedying these defects. There has also been a large number of complaints about the difficulty of getting fresh telephone services supplied, as promised by the Department. These are provided for in the regulations; the applicants fulfil all necessary requirements on their side, but cannot get what they need. I should like to learn from **Senator Keating** whether it is a fact, as stated, that the recent fire in Elizabeth-street, Melbourne, which burnt a certain number of instruments, has hung up the Telegraph and Telephone branch from one end of Australia to the other. Has that really been the cause of all these constant complaints? {: .speaker-JXT} ##### Senator Colonel Neild: -- It seems to me that it has been an absolute God-send to the Department. {: .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator CHATAWAY: -- It appears to have given the Department an excellent excuse. Assuming that that is the case, we are entitled to know from **Senator Keating** how soon, and to what extent, the Government propose to replace the various articles which were then destroyed, and when it expects to be in a position to supply people with the requirements which they are entitled to expect. I am well aware that to propose a request for the reduction of this item by a considerable amount would interfere with the payment of various officials in theDepartment. I believe that a short time ago many' unfortunate employes in the Sydney General Post Office were unable for weeks to get their money. It is quite obvious that if the Committee agreed to a request to reduce this item by any considerable sum, those unhappy wretches would again have to wait for their money. If all the criticism which was passed here last night was worth anything - if it was not all so much blank powder which was fired - honorable senators should join with me in inviting a clear and definite expression from the Government as to what they intend to do to remedy the existing abominable state of affairs, and also in expressing in no unmistakable manner a protest against the maladministration of this Department from one end of Australia to the other. I move - >That the House of Representatives be requested to reduce the proposed vote for division 189, subdivision1," Central Staff, £1,680," by£1. {: #debate-4-s38 .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING:
Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist -- The only specific instance of alleged maladministration against the Department which **Senator Chataway** tendered in his brief speech was that there are delays in the transmission of telegrams to Queensland. He stated that a. daily newspaper in Brisbane publishes in each issue a statement showing the times when its telegrams are lodged and received. These delays have already been brought under the notice of the PostmasterGeneral, and I understand that arrangements are now in progress for the purpose of establishing additional means of communication between New South Wales and Queensland in order that such delays may not recur. Between New South Wales and Victoria there is a number of telegraph lines, some of which accompany one another on the same poles. I believe that between those States it is proposed to have additional telegraphic communication by an alternative route. When that route is established the congestion of business between the two more populous States will, to some extent, be removed. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- Did it come about in a day? {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- No; as a rule it never does. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- This additional communication could have been thought of while the business has been growing. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- It has been thought of. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- It is only now that it is thought of. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- No, in the early part of last year the question of providing furthermeans of communication between Victoria and New South Wales was considered, and reports were called for in regard to the route which should be selected. It was recognised by the Department that to simply put a new line on the existing poles, although it might give extra means of communication under normal conditions, would give no advantage whatever when the lines, generally speaking, were down. With regard to Queensland, I know that attention is being given to this matter. Let me now refer to the general complaint that the public are unable to obtain certain facilities for which they have asked and for which provision is made by regulation. I know that quite recently there has been a difficulty in obtaining some facilities. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- The Department has withdrawn facilities which the people have enjoyed for years. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- I do not know of any case of that kind. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- I have brought several cases under the notice of the PostmasterGeneral, and I am prepared to give the honorable senator some particulars if he wishes to have them. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- It is better for honorable senators to give specific cases. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- I have written to the . Postmaster-General's Department on the subject, and I do not wish to occupy the time of the Senate by stating the details of the cases. {: .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator Chataway: -- An honorable senator mentioned a specific case last night. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- Of the withdrawal of a mail? {: .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator Chataway: -- Certainly. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- I do not remember the incident. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- I can tell the honorable senator of two cases. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- I shall be pleased if the honorable senator will. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- The Yaraldool mail and the Wanaaring telegraph office have been withdrawn by the Department. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- The Department must have had some reason for taking that step. I know that the more facilities and advantages are provided for the public, the greater is their appetite for using them. We may have a line of communication by railway or steamer or coach, and apparently it is meeting all requirements, but if it is improved it will be" found within a short time that that very improvement has created an increased appetite on the part of the public. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- The Postal Department must move with the times. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- Of course, it must move with the times, and it is endeavouring to do so. But a little bit of give and take is required on the part of the public, as well as on the part of the Department. I could mention cases within my own experience. I have known of places where, before the telephone system was installed, people were put to some inconvenience, trouble, and loss of time in communicating with each other by messenger. Almost immediately a telephone is installed - or, certainly, after a little time - custom makes a property of easiness in the individual who uses the instrument ; and the man who turns the handle of the telephone, if he does not get a response within five seconds, begins to complain about the inordinate delay to which he is subjected. Complaints of delay are made against the Telephone Exchange often without justification. If one were to sit down quietly behind a subscriber, and' make a note of the time required to get connected when that subscriber thinks that he has to endure delay, he would probably flatly deny that the time was so short. After all, we are only working with human instruments. Whatever may be the equipment of an exchange or a post-office, the measure of its efficiency and of its expeditious discharge of the work intrusted to it, is necessarily the human factor. With regard to supplies of materials, certainly the fire which took place in Melbourne at the latter end of November deprived the Post and Telegraph Department of a great quantity of stores which it had in hand, and with which it would have been, able to meet some of the requirements of the public. {: .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator Chataway: -- The statement has been made in one of the Brisbane newspapers that supplies have been withdrawn from Queensland to make up for the deficiency in Melbourne. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- I do not know whether that statement is correct. But the demand for new telephones in New South Wales has been abnormal. There has also been a great demand in Victoria for new telephone connexions. If the Department had a large supply of instruments in Queensland, necessarily it would draw upon them for its purposes in other States. I know, personally, that in Tasmania there has lately been a great demand for the establishment of telephonic connexions. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- Brought about by regulations with regard to party lines, which the Department knew that it could not carry out. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator KEATING: -- As far as the requirements of Tasmania are concerned, I understand that they have been largely met. The demands for increased facilities have mostly come from New South Wales ; and I believe that the stock in hand is not sufficient to enable the Department immediately to meet requirements. But steps have been taken to replenish stocks of material and instruments which are required to give to the public all the facilities which have been asked for. Honorable senators will understand, of course, that the Post and Telegraph Department is one which has to keep pace with the requirements of the times. But at the same time, it has to be somewhat conservative in this regard - that it does not immediately adopt certain inventions of appliances which, though they may seem superior to anything that we have in use at the present moment, may, within a short space of time, give way to other inventions still superior. It is a. Department that involves a considerable amount of personal trouble so far as the Minister is concerned, and a great deal of official experience and labour on the part of the staff. I believe that the Minister and the staff are doing all that can be reasonably expected of them under present circumstances. I believe that honorable senators' realize that. I hope, therefore, that **Senator Chataway** will withdraw his request. I may add that I have had all the references to the Department, made during the first-reading debate last night, taken out of the *Hansard* proofs and tabulated, and I am transmitting them to the "PostmasterGeneral, together with my own observations. {: #debate-4-s39 .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN:
New South' Wales -- **Senator Chataway** is to be congratulated on having elicited a statement from the 'Minister in charge, which a perfect artillery of criticism last night failed to extract from him. The Minister was able to keep his seat last night while lie heard senator after senator get up and give instance after instance of incapacity or neglect on the part of the Department, and proof after proof of the widespread dissatisfaction on the part of the public, as well as of similar dissatisfaction from within the service. In spite of all that, the Minister did not attempt to say a word, either in answer to honorable senators or in defence of the Department. The Committee had a right to complain of discourtesy on the part of the Minister. It is invariably the rule for the Minister in charge, when criticism is directed against a Department which he, for the time being, represents, to pay those who have addressed him through the Chair the compliment of informing them that he has noted their remarks, and if he tan offer some explanation about the matters complained of he does so. But the Minister of Home Affairs seemed to think that all he had to do was quietly to take notes of the criticism of honorable senators. {: .speaker-KPE} ##### Senator Keating: -- I did make observations by way of interjections last night, but I did no more, in order that honorable senators might have an opportunity of saying all that they had to say. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- It is usually expected of a Minister that he will make some statement in reply with regard to the matters which have been brought under review. **Senator Chataway** is, I say again, to be congratulated on having obtained a statement from the Minister. I certainly cannot say that I am surprised at what he has said, though I am certainly disappointed. It is impossible for the Minister, or any one else, to deny the instances brought forward, affecting the Commonwealth from one end to the other, regarding the absolute state of muddle and disorganization which prevails in the Department. Yet the Minister complained that details, have not been furnished. When the public complaints are general, and when evidence is obtainable on every hand, what necessity is there for honorable senators to go fully into details relating to individual cases ? I, personally, have abstained from giving them, because it seemed unnecessary to multiply instances of which honorable senators have too many within their own personal knowledge. I think that the Minister, instead of taking up the time of the Committee with the sort of stereotyped apology which a Minister is always more or less obliged to make, might frankly have told the Committee that the Government fully recognised the necessity ' for something being done, to put right that which is unquestionably wrong at present. Hut the Minister has not done anything of the kind. .What he did was, rather, to lecture the public at large, and to tell them that since they have obtained certain facilities they are getting greedy, and want more. Of course they do ; and that is what the Department exists for. It is the business of this Department to supply facilities to the public for which there is an immediate demand. Beyond that, however, there is the obligation upon the Minister to pay some attention to the criticisms directed toward the state of the Department from inside. It may be that the complaints made by various sections of the Public Ser- vice are unjustified ; but, certainly, those complaints have been frequently published. From the Minister's reply, one would think that he believed that no one had ever heard a word before about these complaints, and that the disorganization in the General Post Office, Sydney, was an entirely new topic. If any one in the State of New South Wales were told that the Minister wanted individual cases of that disorganization, the result would simply be to create a laugh. Every household can furnish instances. The Minister might as well ask for evidence of the law of gravitation as to be furnished with evidence that the General Post Office, Sydney, is in a complete state of disorganization. What this Department wants, and what **Senator Chataway** desired, was some expression from the Minister, on the part of the Government, that they are keenly alive to the absolute disorganization that exists, and that they are determined to put it right. I offered the Government the suggestion last night that they should appoint a Commission, upon which business men of high standing would be. represented. So far as I know, and so far as anything said by the Minister has gone, the Government have - paid no heed to. that suggestion. Whether they are considering it or not, I do not know. **Senator Chataway** has moved this request to enable honorable senators to have an opportunity of expressing their opinion that something certainly ought to be done, All that was wanted from the Minister was a statement affirming that the Government fully recognised that something has to be done to bring the Department up to a capacity for the proper discharge of its duties. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- We do not want, to delegate our functions to some one else. ' {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -The honorable senator did not say anything about delegation of functions when the Navigation Bill was in question. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- Yes, I did; and the Navigation Commission was composed of members of Parliament. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- If the honorable senator means that there would be no delegation of functions if a Commission of members of Parliament were appointed, whereas there would be if other persons were appointed, he attaches a different meaning to the words than I do. But if there is a Commission, I hope that there will be no member of Parliament upon it. Nothing would be more calculated to weaken it in the eyes of the public than if it were composed of parliamentarians. What we want is a Commission of Inquiry, which shall embrace business men with a- full knowledge of the organization and management of big business concerns. {: .speaker-JU7} ##### Senator de Largie: -- Does the honorable senator think that any business men in the Commonwealth are better fitted to inquire into a business of this kind than are men who are constantly giving attention to its affairs ? {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- I cannot think of a worse body to inquire into an immense business concern like this than would be one composed of members of Parliament. Is there any honorable senator who would put himself forward, and say that he has the special knowledge, special training, and special capacity for organizing large bodies of men in a big business like this? The honorable senator who would put himself forward and do that would rather excite a smile. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- Where is the commercial man in Australia to-day who has any knowledge of an organization like the Post and Telegraph Department? {: .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator Chataway: -- We hope there are none ! {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- **Senator Chataway** gives not only the answer, but the reason. No business could be carried on like this. It would be impossible for a great business concern to rise to the magnitude of the Post and Telegraph Department, if it were conducted on the lines that this Department is. I do not know of any parliamentarians who have shown a capacity for organizing great business concerns. {: .speaker-JU7} ##### Senator de Largie: -- A man who was taken out of the Public Service has shown himself to be one of the most capable business organizers in Melbourne. I refer to the manager of the Civil Service Stores. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- I have not said a word about the members of the Public Service. We were talking about parliamentarians. I was speaking of the absurdity of appointing a Commission of parliamentarians, and arguing that such a Commission as we require should be composed of business men, and not ofparliamentarians, who necessarily, from the very fact that they were parliamentarians, would approach the work with ideas more or less definitely formed. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- Would not the business man do the same? {: .speaker-JU7} ##### Senator de Largie: -- Of course he has no prejudices ! {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- It is not a question of prejudice at all. I said not a word about prejudice. In my case, or in that of the honorable senator who interjects, it is known throughout the community that we have certain ideas as to the extent and scope of public functions. Even supposing that **Senator de** Largie were the best man in Australia for the work, the mere fact that he had committed himself politically to a certain policy would naturally destroy all confidence in his impartiality. Even if he were the most impartial man alive, it would still leave room for the suspicion outside that unconsciously he had been biased by the political cause which he had espoused. The value of a Commission is largely destroyed if there is any room for the people outside to assume that it has proceeded from what may be called a foregone conclusion. {: .speaker-K6L} ##### Senator Chataway: -- Witness the Tariff Commission. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- Seven-eighths of that Commission was composed of parliamentarians, and, so far as carrying any conviction to the mind of any member of the community was concerned, it was not worth the price of the ink with which its members signed their names to the report. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- What about the business men on it? {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN: -- Business men could not be business men unless they had shown a capacity to organize and conduct businesses successfully. That is their claim to be represented. I venture to say that the public of Australia would regard a Commission very doubtfully if it were composed solely either of parliamentarians or officials. At the same time I quite recognise that upon this Commission, associated with business men, it would be an advantage to have some men who understood the routine of the Department concerned. However, the *personnel* of the Commission is a secondary matter at this stage: The Postal Department has arrived at such a state of complete disorganization, and there is so much dissatisfaction outside and inside the service, that the duty which confronts the Government is to put it right. I am not aware what information the Government have, but if ever there was a case which called for a full and amplepublic inquiry it is the one now under review. I suggest to the Government, in the most friendly spirit, that they will relieve themselves of a very arduous work and of a very difficult position, and give a guarantee to the public of their desire to put things right, if they appoint a Commission of inquiry as a first step towards putting the Postal Department upon a belter and sounder basis than it occupies to-day. I shall resume my seat now, in view of the lateness of the hour, but I do not wish it to be thought that I have completed all I have to say' upon so large and important a subject. {: #debate-4-s40 .speaker-JPC} ##### Senator BEST:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist -- I appeal to **Senator Chataway** to withdraw his request. I appreciate the motive which he had in moving it, as enabling him to indicate the strong feeling of himself and those who are supporting him as to the present condition of the Post Office. I cannot pretend to be ignorant of the fact that it is thought in some quarters (hat the Post Office is in a condition of disorganization:, and that much dissatisfaction exists in regard1 to present methods. [ have listened, as have my colleagues, to representations which have been made here and elsewhere on the subject, and I say frankly that we are not prepared to ignore them. I promise the honorable senator, if he withdraws his request, to bring the representations which have been made under the notice of the first meeting of the Cabinet. The responsibility will then be cast upon the Government of determining exactly what thev shall do. Whether the dissatisfaction exists to the extent suggested by honorable senators, is a matter that we shall have to discover for ourselves, but we admit the responsibility, and do not shirk it. Whatever we decide we shall, of course, be responsible for. If, however, by any chance a request of this kind were carried, it would have a most serious financial effect, in that some of the money is actually due to-day, other of it must be paid fo-morrow, and a large sum on 'Monday. I am sure the honorable senator does not desire anybody ' to suffer inconvenience by reason of anything done by this Chamber. If the request were carried, the Bill would have to go back to the other Chamber on Tuesday, we should receive it back on the same day, further discussion would follow, and possibly it would be late next week before these overdue payments could be made - a condition of affairs which would be utterly discreditable to the Commonwealth. I am .sure that the leader of the Opposition will find no difficulty in assisting me to invite **Senator Chataway,** having made his protest, which I have undertaken to bring, together with the other representations made, under the notice of the Cabinet, to withdraw the request. **Senator CHATAWAY** (Queensland) L3-51]- - I have listened with a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction to the statement of the Vice-President of the Executive Council. What he said has impressed me far more than did what was said just now by his colleague, whose statements were a general sort of effort to minimize the fact that there is a great deal of discontent with regard to the Department. In fact, he almost suggested that it was the public who were getting so greedy for postal facilities that they were to blame because the Department could not supply what it is always advertising its desire to give to the public. If the statement made just now by the Vice-President of the Executive Council had been made last night, I should *not* have thought it necessary to move this 'request. I did so for the purpose of focussing the general opinions expressed in this chamber by a resolution of the Committee. I am sorry to learn that if we deducted a pound from the amount of this division, such dire financial results would follow. I take it,. however, that the Minister is perfectly correct in that regard, and therefore I ask leave to withdraw the request. Request, by leave, withdrawn. {: #debate-4-s41 .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator MILLEN:
New South' Wales -- I understand - I do not know whether it is the practice or not- that in certain cases, one of which was referred to by **Senator Mulcahy** yesterday, a. Department when it requires material advertises for it duty paid. That is very foolish as a business operation, because the effect is that the tenderers pay the duty, which necessarily increases the cost to the Commonwealth of the work, and three-fourths of the revenue gees back to the States. The particular matter referred to by **Senator Mulcahy** was -a tender for some wire to be delivered in Western Australia. That wire purchased by the Government necessarily cost more, duty paid, than if taken in bond, because goods required for the Commonwealth are admitted free. As a result, the tenderers pay the duty to the Commonwealth Treasurer, the cost being, of course, charged against the work for which the material is required, the Government immediately hand 15s. out of every pound so collected to the States, who spend it as revenue, and, until provision is made for a sinking fund, the general taxpayers of the country have to find that additional amount. That appears a most peculiar method of conducting business. I do not know whether it is the general method, or was only applied to this particular case, but, whether it is an isolated instance or a general practice, as a business proposition it is entirely wrong. Proposed vote agreed to. Division 35 *(Refunds of Revenue),* £15,000, and Division 36 *(Advance to Treasurer),* £25,000 agreed to. Postponed clause 2, and title, agreed to. Bill reported without request ; report adopted. Bill read a third time. {: .page-start } page 9007 {:#debate-5} ### PAPERS MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers - >Judgment of the High Court of Australia - Joseph Vardon and James Vincent O'Loghlin on a reference by the Senate of the Commonwealth. > >Defence Acts 1903-1904 - "Australian Ensign " and " Union Jack " - Provisional Regulation - Statutory Rules 1908, No. 27. {: .page-start } page 9007 {:#debate-6} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-6-0} #### Navigation Bill: Board of Trade Memorandum - Smuggling of Opium - Influx of Chinese {: #subdebate-6-0-s0 .speaker-JPC} ##### Senator BEST:
VicePresident of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist -- In moving - >That the Senate do now adjourn. I may state that I made a promise earlier in the day to lay upon the table a copy of the memorandum received from the Board of Trade with regard to the Navigation Bill. The document is somewhat lengthy, and the officers have not been able to finish the copy, but I propose to lay it upon the table when we meet on Tuesday next. {: #subdebate-6-0-s1 .speaker-JTH} ##### Senator CROFT:
Western Australia -- Some time ago, I directed the attention of the Government to the inadequacy of a fine that had been inflicted on a person convicted of smuggling opium at Port Darwin. We have all seen statements which have appeared in the newspapers showing that opium smuggling is largely carried on, and I propose to read a telegram appearing in the *Argus* to-day, which indicates the extent to which opium smuggling is practised in Western Australia. The telegram is as follows - >PERTH, Thursday.- Surprise is expressed here that the seizures of opium in Adelaide should have caused such a sensation. In Western Australia during the last twelve months there have been a number of far more important seizures than that made in Adelaide, despite the utmost precautions, and an exhaustive searching of Singapore steamers. There is a strong belief that cliques control the importation and sale of opium here. The profits are stated to be enormous. A Chinese gardener near Fremantle banked over £300 in the last three months. The most important seizure was made last December, when 302 oz., valued at £120, were confiscated. In all there have been fifty seizures of 2,500 oz., valued at £1,040, and fines amounting to £600 inflicted, mostly on Chinese. Opium was found on two occasions in possession of Europeans, two Japanese, one South African, and one Malayan. I have read this telegram in order that the attention of the Government may be directed to the matter, and to suggest that really it is necessary that some more effective means should be adopted to cope with the opium smuggling. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- How can we adopt an effective scheme when a fellow can carry opium in his waistcoat pocket ? {: .speaker-JTH} ##### Senator CROFT: -- I am asking the Government to consider whether it is not possible to devise some more effective scheme for the purpose. It is very difficult for people to secure definite information on which the Department would be able to prove a case, but it is very well knownthat numbers of Chinese, as well as opium, are being smuggled into Western Australia. I suggest that the Government might ask their expert advisers in these matters to try and devise a scheme which would provide for a better patrol of the coast, and a more complete inspection of the vessels, in order to bring to book the smugglers of opium, and to prevent the landing of prohibited immigrants. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- They are appointing three inspectors. {: .speaker-JTH} ##### Senator CROFT: -- Three inspectors could do very little on the West Coast of Western Australia. I feel sure that for a few years in the early operation of our legislation, it is necessary that we should spend a considerable sum of money in vindicating our laws, and that if we do that we shall not later on be faced with the difficulties at present experienced in giving effect to them. {: #subdebate-6-0-s2 .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY:
Victoria **.- Senator Croft** has brought under the notice of the Senate a very important matter. We all know very well that although the importation of opium is prohibited, a great deal of it is being brought into the Commonwealth. We know also that in spite of the fact that Chinese are prohibited immigrants, they are finding their way into Australia in fairly large numbers. It is common talk amongst those who have visited the East, that very great risks are taken by some folk to break the laws of this country, because it is said that if they are successful they get at least £100 for every Chinaman they can land in any part of the Commonwealth. {: .speaker-KMT} ##### Senator Gray: -- I suppose that twenty Chinese leave Australia for every one who arrives here. {: .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY: -- I was not im- pressed by certain returns that I saw published in the newspapers not long since. Some Chinese who have done fairly well in Australia decide to make China their future home, and when they leave this country, the naturalization papers they carry away with them are sold to agents in Hong Kong, who keep them safely until an occasion arises when they can dispose of them to other Chinese, resembling those from whom they were bought who desire to go to Australia. I can give proof of the accuracy of this statement. When I was in Hong Kong some time ago, a Chinese merchant was prosecuted by the Chinese Navigation Company and it was shown in evidenceon oath in the Hong Kong Court, that he had a safe full of naturalization papers which he had bought from Chinese who hadleft Australia, and was prepared to traffic in them with the object of securing the. admission of fresh Chinese to the Commonwealth on those papers. I am aware that this matter was considered so serious by the Government, that they deputed **Mr. Lewis,** of one of the Commonwealth Departments, to make a trip along the Queensland coast, and to visit Port Darwin, and submit a report on the subject to the Prime Minister. I believe that **Mr. Lewis** has drawn up his report ; but those who have made inquiries as to when it is likely to be published, are told that, as it contains a number of suggestions that have a direct bearing upon the matter with which we are now dealing, the Government do not propose to make it public. I hope that stringent measures on the lines of American legislation will be adopted to prohibit the importation of Chinese and of opium. {: .speaker-KNB} ##### Senator Guthrie: -- The greater part of the opium we get comes from America. {: .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY: -- If that be so, it is remarkable that the only seizures of opium that have been made have, so far as I know from anything that has appeared in the newspapers, been made on boats trading between Australia and the East. I believe we should be taking a step in the right direction if we were to adopt some of the legislation of the United States dealing with the immigration of aliens. They do not provide Chinese or Japanese leaving America with naturalization papers and descriptions of themselves. Before any Chinese or Japanese can leave America, they must be possessed of a certain amount of money, and their naturalization papers with their photos are kept by the American authorities ; so that agents in China and japan are not given the facilities for trafficking in them that they enjoy under our system. {: .speaker-KUL} ##### Senator Millen: -- One defect of the United States system is, that the man with a little money can leave the country, and the man who has none must stop there. {: .speaker-JYX} ##### Senator FINDLEY: -- Under our system, Chinese who have made a little money clearout, sell their naturalization papers to agents in China, and on these papers fresh Chinese are allowed to come in and go through the same procedure after they have made a little money. I am satisfied that the statement I have made on the subject is correct, because, when I was in Hong Kong, the particulars of the case to which I have referred were published in the Hong Kong newspapers. {: #subdebate-6-0-s3 .speaker-JPC} ##### Senator BEST:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist -- I have only to say that the Government and the External Affairs Department are fully alive to the importance of the two matters brought under notice by Senators Croft and Findley. It is hardly necessary that I should emphasize the difficulties with which even the most experienced officials are confronted in dealing with such matters. I shall bring under the notice of the Department the representations which have been made. Question resolved in the affirmative. Senate adjourned at 4.11 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 13 March 1908, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1908/19080313_senate_3_44/>.