The President took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.
page 3363
QUESTION
TELEGRAPH AND TELEPHONE POLES
Senator MILLEN: NEW SOUTH WALES
– I desire to ask the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral, without notice, whether his attentionhas been drawn to a statement in the Melbourne press that, owing to the prohibitive rates charged for. the use of Government telegraph and telephone poles, residents in rural localities are erecting separate poles at their own cost parallel with and almost touching the Government lines, and find that they can do so more economically than the Government, and, if so, whether he will ascertain if that statement is correct, and see if a more business-like arrangement cannot be arrived at ?
Senator KEATING: Minister for Home Affairs · TASMANIA · Protectionist
– I noticed the statement in the press, and instituted an inquiry on the lines which, the honorable senator has suggested. 3364 Electoral Act. [SENATE.] Sugar Bounty.
Senator Millen:
– Perhaps the honorable senator will inform the Senate of the result of his’ inquiries ?
Senator KEATING:
– Yes.
page 3364
QUESTION
FIRES IN NEW SOUTH WALES
Senator BEST: Vice-President of the Executive Council · VICTORIA · Protectionist
– I thank my honorable friend for mentioning the matter. The Government has already sent a telegram of sympathy, and on behalf of the Senate I shall be very happy indeed to send a telegram.
page 3364
QUESTION
ELECTORAL ACT
Senator HENDERSON: WESTERN AUSTRALIA
– I desire to ask the Minister of Home Affairs, without notice, whether, in connexion with the matter of the Corio electorate and election which I brought forward here on the 28th. August, the Electoral Department has yet made any inquiry into the case of alleged interference with an elector named Carbines, and, if so, what is the result of the inquiry?
Senator KEATING: Protectionist
– On the morning of the 29th August, a proof slip of the honorable senator’s address to the Senate was forwarded by the Department of Home Affairs to the Attorney-General for advice as to what action, if any, it was called upon to take. I do not know that a reply has yet been received, but I shall expedite the matter.
page 3364
QUESTION
TARIFF
Senator DOBSON: TASMANIA
– I desire to ask the
Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, if he will confer with the Acting Prime Minister and his colleagues to see whether arrangements cannot be made for passing the Tariff through both Houses before Christmas, or whether it is the intention of the Government to ask the Houses to reassemble early in the new year ?
Senator BEST: Protectionist
– My honorable friend may be assured that, so far as the Government is concerned, no time will be lost, but, of course, the matter really depends upon the action of the Houses. If he will give notice of a question, I shall consult with my honorable colleagues.
page 3364
QUESTION
SUGAR BOUNTY
Senator CHATAWAY: QUEENSLAND
– I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, whether he is aware that the complaints concerning delay in the payment of the sugar bounty are still being made, and whether the Government is prepared to take a further step, in accordance with the promise which the honorable gentleman made the other day, to see that the inconvenience is ended at once?
Senator BEST: Protectionist
– I regret to say that further complaints on the subject have been made. I can only assure my honorable friend that I shall consult the Minister of Trade and Customs, and urge upon him that immediate steps should be taken to remove the cause of complaint.
page 3364
QUESTION
SENATE ELECTION : SOUTH AUSTRALIA
Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
-I desire to ask the Minister of Home Affairs, without notice, a question with regard to a report in the South Australian Register that he, commenting upon the fact that certain ballotpapers had been discovered which it had been sworn had been burned, said that something might arise which might be very far-reaching, and that on Monday or Tuesday he would be able to make some reference to the matter. I ask the honorable gentleman whether he has any statement to make to the Senate which, I think, ought to be the first to receive information on the subject.
Senator KEATING: Protectionist
– The information was conveyed to me on Wednesday or Thursday last.
Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
– The Minister did not mention it then.
Senator KEATING:
– No; I did not think it was advisable to communicate the information until I had. satisfied myself that it was correct. It was not until after midday on Friday last that I was satisfied it was correct. As regards the far-reaching nature of the consequences of the discovery, I cannot be held responsible for a statement of that kind. I did inform a representative of the press, who saw me immediately after the rising of the Senate on Friday, that the ballot-papers had been discovered, that I was not in a position to express an opinion as to what would be the result of the discovery, and that as the matter might be of very serious import, the first intimation received by me had been communicated by me to the AttorneyGeneral, who was asked to wait, as I
*Public Service Commissioner.* [1 8 September, 1907.] *Papers.* 3365 was waiting, verification so that there would be no delay on the part of the AttorneyGeneral in advising when full and correct information had come to hand. Up to a quarter to one o'clock to-day I had not received a reply from the Attorney-General's Department, but I am expecting to receive, during the day, advice on the situation in general.
{: .page-start }
page 3365
{:#debate-6}
### QUESTION
{:#subdebate-6-0}
#### PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER
{: #subdebate-6-0-s0 .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator DOBSON:
-- I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, without notice, whether it is the intention of the Government to do away with the Public Service Commissioner, and have the Public Service regularly administered by Parliament; and if not, does not the honorable gentleman thinkthat it is the duty of every Minister to be loyal to the Public Service Commissioner, and to the Department established by Parliament ; and, further, that the utterances of the PostmasterGeneral are utterly disloyal to the Public Service Commissioner?
{: #subdebate-6-0-s1 .speaker-JPC}
##### Senator BEST: Protectionist
-- I have no assurance that the press reports to which the honorable senator refers are correct, but certainly it is not the present intention of the Government to do away with the Public Service Commissioner.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- Then the PostmasterGeneral ought to keep his tongue still.
{: .page-start }
page 3365
{:#debate-7}
### ORDER OF BUSINESS
{: #debate-7-s0 .speaker-JPC}
##### Senator BEST: Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist
-- I desire the Government Orders of the Day to be postponed temporarily in order to afford to **Senator Neild** an opportunity to submit a motion which has for its object the recognition of the services of the late President of the Senate.
Orders of the Day postponed.
{: .page-start }
page 3365
{:#debate-8}
### PAPERS
**Senator KEATING** laid upon the table the following papers -
>Public Service Act 1902 -
>
>Repeal of Regulation 66 (SundayWork), and substitution of new Regulation in lieu thereof.- Statutory Rules 1907, No.89.
>
>Amendment of Regulation 102. - Statutory Rules 1907, No. 92. Lands Acquisition Act 1906 -
>
>Young, New South Wales : Extension to Postal Property - Notification of the Acquisition of Land.
>
>Cambelego, New South Wales : Post Office - Notification of the Acquisition of Land for site.
The Acting Clerk laid upon the table the following paper -
>Return to Order of the Senate of 13th September, 1907 -
>
>Loan Expenditure by States on Works and Buildings for six years ending June, 1901 ; Expenditure by Commonwealth on Works and Buildings for six years ending June, 1907.
{: .page-start }
page 3365
{:#debate-9}
### FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE
**Senator Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [3.16]. - I move -
>That this Senate hereby records its high sense of the distinguished services rendered to the Commonwealth Parliament by the Honorable **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker, K.C.M.G., K.C., first President of this Senate during the years 1 901-1906.
In submitting this motion, which I honestly own I had intended to place on the businesspaper at the earliest moment, but of which, unfortunately, I must plead forgetfulness through a pressure of business at the commencement of the session, I desire the concurrence of my fellow senators in placing on record, in a humble and unostentatious manner, some expression of our sense of the value of the duties which our first President discharged. When the Senate first came together, it consisted of gentlemen who had been accustomed in their own States to varied procedures, and included a considerable number of others to whom parliamentary life was entirely novel. In opening and conducting for six years the proceedings of this Chamber, establishing many points of practice, and working the parliamentary machine up to its present reasonably perfect standard, **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker discharged services of eminent consequence and value. It may be asked why I submit the motion. I did not venture to place it upon the paper without having made inquiries in some directions - I could not, of course, make them everywhere - and I found my proposed action very cordially indorsed. For twenty years I have had the honour of the personal friendship of this gentleman, and I may reasonably claim to be one of the oldest of his friends now present. That may be, possibly, an excuse for my action if excuse be needed, but I take it that you, **Mr. President,** and all my comrades in this Chamber, will feel that in placing on record a simple recognition of our appreciation of his six years of service, we shall be but fol lowing the example of almost every Legislative Chamber in any part of the world 3366 *First President of* [SENATE.] *the Senate.* with reference to past presiding officers, and such a practice as is followed even in public companies and societies of all kinds. There is no novelty in it. I only regret that it was not submitted before. **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker is a man who is above any attempted praise on my' part. His services to his own State have placed him in the front rank of historical South Australians, and in the future of the Commonwealth it will necessarily be a matter of more than interest to study the development of our legislative machine under the guidance of so experienced and highly talented a gentleman as **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker, K.C.M.G., K.C.I might have added other titles to which that gentleman can rightly lay claim; I might add many words of commendation ; but I refrain from doing either. I hope that the letters which signify his titles are sufficient to designate him honorably, and that the few words I have uttered, feeble though they be, will suffice to direct into similar channels of thought those who may follow me in bearing testimony to the services which this Senate very happily enjoyed at the hands of the gentleman who was its first presiding officer, and who held that distinguished position so worthily for six long years.
{: #debate-9-s0 .speaker-JPC}
##### Senator BEST: Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist
-- I esteem it a duty and a pleasure to second the motion. **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker has already enjoyed the distinction of recognition by his Sovereign of his splendid services to his State. We were fortunate to secure his services in the Convention, to which he brought the value of his great experience, and subsequently in the initiation of the Federation. I consider that we are deeply indebted to him. It is difficult to conceive the intricacies and embarrassments which were incidental to the inauguration of such a great machine as the Federation, and the Senate was certainly fortunate in having as its first President a man of such mature experience, constitutionallearning, and undoubted probity and ability. The distinguished services that he has rendered to this Chamber are well known to those who sat under him for a period of six years. It is but a small recognition of them to place on record in this motion our high sense of what he has done for us and for the Federation. I am indebted to **Senator Neild** for having brought the matter before us, and enablingus to make some public record of our acknowledgment of the eminent services of that gentleman. I am quite sure the motion will bereceived by the Senate with unanimous assent and acclamation.
{: #debate-9-s1 .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGREGOR: South Australia
-- I have very much pleasure in supporting the motion. I believe that my acquaintance with the ex- President has been even of longer duration than that of **Senator Neild,** in the capacity of an employer, a representative, and a President not only of the Senate, but of the LegislativeCouncil of South Australia. I am able to testify to his uprightness and generosity as an employer. As a President in the South Australian Legislative Council, he always acted with courtesy and fairness, and that I think was the invariable experience of honorable senators during his term of office here. As a representative of the people, although I differed from him. in most things, I recognised that he was conscientious, persevering, and industrious. For these reasons, we should pay some little tribute to the value of the services he rendered as first President of the Senate. But for the discord that might have arisen out of an amendment, I should have suggested that a practice similar to that which obtains in both Houses of the South Australian Parliament should be adopted here. The portraits of the Presidents and Speakers of this Parliament ought to finda place in the Chamber over which they have presided. I trust that steps will be taken in the future to adopt my suggestion in that regard. Although we had every satisfaction under **Sir Richard.** Chaffey Baker's presidency, we hope in the future to have just as worthy gentlemen occupying that position, and their memories should be recorded in the Chamber over which they preside.
**Senator WALKER** (New South Wales [3.27]. - As I had the pleasure of proposing **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker as our President on two occasions, I support the motion with great pleasure. In the Convention it was my fortune to be under his rule as Chairman of Committees, and a better Chairman of Committees I can scarcely imagine. His knowledge of constitutional history, his courtesy and indefatigability in the discharge of his duty, were beyond praise. We cannot but regard him as a gentleman of high attainments and excellent character. I am delighted that the motion is likely to be carried, and I trust that when it is put, we shall all rise as a. tribute of respect to our late President. I hope also that the day is not far distant when **Senator McGregor's** excellent suggestion will be given effect to.
**Senator STEWART** (Queensland) £3.28]. - I rise with great diffidence, not exactly to object to the motion, or even to oppose it. I have just been wondering what the reason is for moving it. Why .should we pass a special vote of thanks to **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker, simply because he held the position of first President of the Senate?
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- Because he held it worthily.
{: #debate-9-s2 .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART: QUEENSLAND
-- No doubt he did, and probably no one in this chamber had a higher opinion of the manner in which he filled the . position than myself. I have npt the slightest objection to the passing of the motion, if it can be added to by including the names of a number of other gentlemen who were members of the first Senate, and who performed services to the Commonwealth of an even more distinguished character than did **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker. Are the names of those men to be consigned to the political scrapheap while that of **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker is glorified? That is the question which is troubling my conscience. Why should we single that gentleman out, simply because he was President of the Senate ? We all know that the President of this Chamber fills an onerous and honorable position, but I do not think that any honorable senator will claim that the President does work of greater consequence than, or even of as great consequence to the Commonwealth as, do many private members of the Senate. **Senator Neild,** when moving the motion, referred to a precedent which has been 'established in parliamentary institutions all over the world. If other people are addicted to tuft-hunting or, to put it broadly, to toadying, I do not see why the Senate of the Commonwealth should follow such a bad example. As I have already pointed out, if the names of other men who rendered equally distinguished services to the Commonwealth are included with that of **Sir Richard** Baker in this motion, no one will be more pleased than myself to vote for it. But if these names are not included I cannot conscientiously support the motion. With regard to **Senator McGregor's** suggestion, to put it p.lainly, it savours of the ridiculous. Why should the portrait of any individual member of the Senate be hung up in this chamber unless he has distinguished himself in a very remarkable manner, and unless he has performed services to the Commonwealth above and beyond those rendered by any other member of the Senate?
{: .speaker-KRZ}
##### Senator Lynch:
-- Unless he is a George Washington.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Quite so, unless he is a George Washington of the early years of the twentieth century. In such a case as that no one would be more willing than myself to give honour where honour was due. But why should we trouble to adorn the walls of this chamber with the portrait of a man merely because he held the position of President of the Senate and was practically chairman of its meetings?
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGregor:
-- He' could only do that with- the appreciation of a large majority.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- We know how these things are managed. I had to screw my courage1 up this afternoon to raise this apparently discordant note on the motion now before us. ' We know that when a motion of this kind is brought forward no honorable senator cares to make himself appear odd by opposing or even by criticising it.
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGregor:
-- But the honorable senator is always odd.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- That being the case, if a proposal were made to hang the walls of the chamber with portraits of individuals, I do not suppose that any one would care to oppose it. There is another reason why I object to this sort of thing. I think every one will agree with me in the proposition that it is right and proper that we should give those who will come after us correct historical ideas. Suppose that 100 years hence some one wandered into the chamber of the Australian Senate and found hung all round its walls the portraits of various individuals who have held the position of President of the Senate.
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- He might find the lot of us hanging instead of our portraits.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
**- Senator Mulcahy** is a better judge of the fate that he deserves than I can possibly be. People wandering into that political catacomb would naturally conclude that the portraits they saw were representations of the men who had made history ; that if they had not deserved the great honour which had been bestowed on them they would not have received it. They would naturally conclude 3368 *First President of* [SENATE.] *the Senate.* that the men whose portraits they saw were the leading spirits in the government of the country, the founders of the Australian Commonwealth, the authors of its prosperity, and so forth. I do not say that it would, but that it might probably give people a very false idea of the history and early development of the Commonwealth.
{: .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator Henderson:
-- But they would read *Hansard* as well.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- If they were aware that the sparkling gems which are often thrown off by **Senator Henderson** were to be found embedded in the pages of *Hansard,* I have not the slightest doubt that they would peruse them with the greatest possible pleasure. I object to this motion, and to all motions of this character. I' do not see that they really do any good. My honest opinion is that they should never be moved. In a Chamber such as this is, individuals ought never to be singled out for praise, or even for blame, as being above or beneath their fellows.
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGregor:
-- We should always spare a little appreciation for other people, and not reserve all our appreciation for ourselves.
{: #debate-9-s3 .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator DOBSON: Tasmania
.- In listening to **Senator Stewart,** it was gratifying to me, as an admirer of our late President, to know that no member of the Senate has a higher appreciation of his services than has **Senator Stewart.** That being so, I can join with my honorable friend, **Senator Best,** in most cordially supporting the motion. My only regret is that it was not moved sooner. I have to thank **Senator Neild** for bringing it forward now. I think that it should be borne in mind that **Sir Richard** Baker rendered very great services indeed to the cause of Federation. His many speeches and pamphlets were guides for us, and helped materially in the framing of the Constitution under which we are now living. I think that it should also be remembered that he brought to the discharge of his duties the wisdom derived from vast experience. He showed that he took immense interest in the work he had to perform. The note-books and reference books he kept, and the general knowledge he displayed, afforded abundant proof of his industry, and I say that no man was better fitted to worthily fill the position of President of the Senate. We must all recognise that in the early days of our meetings he was of very great assistance to us. In common with many other members of the Senate, I went to him again and again to ask his advice, and I found that he knew more than any other member of the Senate about the procedure which this Chamber ought to adopt. I cordially support the motion. I think that, above all others, **Sir Richard** Baker stands out as a man whose services we ought to acknowledge in the way in which' we are invited to acknowledge them by **Senator Neild.** I deeply regret to learn that **Sir Richard** Baker has been ill, but I hope that he is recovering. I tender him my deep sympathy in his illness, and my grateful thanks for the services he rendered to the cause of Federation, and, as its first President, to this Senate.
{: #debate-9-s4 .speaker-10000}
##### The PRESIDENT [3:
-- Before submitting the motion, I desire to avail myself of the opportunity to place on record the fact that although my knowledge of **Sir Richard** Baker does not extend over solong a period as that referred to by other honorable senators - my personal knowledge of him beginning at the time when he was first elected to preside over the deliberations of the Senate - I am nevertheless perfectly aware of the important part he played in connexion with the various meetings of the Convention held prior to the establishment of Federation. I feel that in honouring a gentleman) who took such an ' active and intelligent part in the framing of the Constitution as did **Sir Richard** Baker, we are not proposing to honour him merely because he occupied the position of President of the Senate. We are honouring a man who took an important part in bringing about the Federation of the Australian States. Honorable senators will also recognise that not only did **Sir Richard** Baker take *x* prominent part in the deliberations of the Convention prior to the framing of the Constitution, but he has impressed certain ideas of his own upon that Constitution. They are embodiedin the statute-books of the Imperial Parliament, and in the Constitution of the Senate. We are well aware that in dealing with financial questions **Sir Richard** Baker, in consequence of his previous parliamentary career, was found to be a guide of great experience in enabling the Constitution to be framed in such a way that, while not taking away certain rights claimed for the House of Representatives, it placed the
Senate in a position far superior to that of any other Second Chamber of Legislature throughout the British Empire. I think we can never, and ought never, to forget that fact, because as representatives of the people, and of the same people who elect honorable members to another place, we are in a position to claim the right to some consideration in dealing with the financial problems which from time to time arise, i say that the action of **Sir Richard** Baker in this connexion deserves not only the appreciation of the Senate, but of the people of Australia. If we pass on to the time when **Sir Richard** Baker took his seat in the Senate, honorable senators will recognise that we were then laying down the foundations of our practice and procedure, and required that a_ man of experience should be placed at the head nf our affairs. While I have no wish to derogate from the great value of the services rendered to the Senate by other eminent gentlemen, .there is no reason why we should ' in any way fail to recognise the great services to this Chamber which were rendered by **Sir Richard** Baker during the period of his office as President. If it were determined never hereafter to recognise in any special degree the services of any honorable senator who might be called upon to preside over the deliberations of this Chamber, we should still bear in mind that the name of **Sir Richard** Baker must be in a category entirely distinct from that of any man who may succeed him. I trust that the Senate will carry the motion with acclamation, I might add that I am pleased to note that the representatives of the Government contribute their meed of praise in recognition of **Senator Baker's** services. If I can influence the Government in any way -in this' respect, I would ask whether **Sir Richard** Baker is not worthy of being recommended for some consideration at the hands of his Sovereign for the services he rendered not only prior to Federation but also in bringing into working order the Senate of the Commonwealth of Australia? I am quite sure that some recognition of the kind, extended by his Sovereign to **Sir Richard** Baker, would be most acceptable to the people of Australia. I do not desire to say anything further on the motion, and if **Senator Neild** wishes to say a few words in reply to the debate, I ask him now to do so.
**Senator Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [3.43]. - There are one or two things which I should like to have said, but refrained from, saying because I trusted that the motion would pass almost formally.' I shall perhaps be forgiven for saying them now. First of all, I desire to refer to one or two matters which have arisen during the debate. I have been pleased to hear that although twenty years is a long time during which .to enjoy the friendship of any man, **Senator McGregor** has known **Sir Richard** Baker for even, a longer time. I think the tribute which the honorable senator has . rendered **Sir Richard** Baker is above all praise, and I shall therefore say no more on that point. With reference to the honorable senator's proposal that we should have a pictorial record on the walls of the Senate of the first and subsequent Presidents of this Chamber, there is high authority for such a proposal, and by adopting the course suggested we should render our ex-Presidents a tribute which our successors would perhaps appreciate even more than ourselves.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- It will be historically valuable.
{: .speaker-JXT}
##### Senator Colonel NEILD:
-- There will be an historical value attaching to it, as **Senator Chataway** suggests. One thing I feel bound to say, and that is, that in giving notice of this motion, I entered into no communication with **Sir Richard** Baker, or any friend of his. I have submitted the matter positively and purely without consultation with any person outside the Senate. So far as my knowledge goes no friend of **Sir Richard** Baker has any idea of what is happening now.
{: .speaker-K0F}
##### Senator Pearce:
-- Surely it was unnecessary to say that.
{: .speaker-JXT}
##### Senator Colonel NEILD:
-- Something was said in- the course of the debate - I forget what it was - which induced me to say these few words on the point. The remarks which you have made) **Mr. Presi-dent,** as to the services of **Sir Richard** Baker, not only in establishing the procedure of the Senate, but also the procedure in reference to communications between the Senate and another place, are in agreement with the considerations that were in my mind when I used the phrase in the motion " services rendered to the Commonwealth Parliament." I conceive that the services of **Sir Richard** Baker extended beyond the walls of the Senate. They 3370 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.* tended towards the establishment of amicable relations as between the two Chambers of the Federal Parliament. That is why I used the larger phrase in the motion. As to **Sir Richard** Baker's vast constitutional knowledge, I merely say that, in my opinion, it would be difficult to find in all Australia, any one - at all events any member of a legislative body - who could possibly be compared with **Sir Richard** Baker in respect of his High level of erudition and ability- in that field. Finally, in reference to the conduct of business here, **Sir Richard** Baker invariably conducted the proceedings of the Senate so as to allow of the greatest possible latitude in debate and procedure, while maintaining at all times a high standard of dignity and decorum in reference to all, that occurred. I am pleased to find that my action in submitring this motion meets practically with universal approval from honorable senators; and I suggest that it should be carried, as **Senator Walker** has suggested, by honorable senators rising in their places.
Question unanimously resolved in the affirmative, honorable senators rising in their places.
Motion (by **Senator Colonel Neild)** agreed to -
>That the President be requestedto communicate the above resolution of the Senate to the Honorable **Sir Richard** Chaffey Baker.
{: .page-start }
page 3370
{:#debate-10}
### BOUNTIES BILL
*In Committee* (Consideration resumed from 13th September, *vide* page 3267) :
First Schedule! -
>Mohair; (period) 10 years; (rate of bounty), 10 per cent. on market value; (maximum payable in any one year),£2,000.
{: #debate-10-s0 .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator HENDERSON: Western Australia
-- I trust that the item mohair will be omitted from the schedule. For the life of me I cannot dream that the Government are in earnest about the necessity for the cultivation of goats in Australia, and particularly goats of the character indicated in this item. I do not profess to be an expert in goats. *I* do not know very much about them, except that in some parts of the country they are very useful, especially where there are no cows and it is difficult to obtain preserved milk. In fact, I rather prefer goat's milk to preserved milk. But from what I have learned, the most inferior fleece produced is that of a goat. Some people seem to imagine that because long hair grows on the Angora goat it must therefore be a profitable animal to breed. But any number of sheep have long wool. Other sheep grow short wool ; and I am assured that short wool is in many instance's infinitely superior to long wool. The experts who sat in conclave and endeavoured to mould a Bill providing for the distribution of bounties have made a mistake in this matter similar to that made with reference to one or two other items. It will be remembered that in the Bill of 1906 there was no such proposal as a bounty for Angora goats. But on this occasion the experts have endeavoured to find out a reason for encouraging the breeding of. goats in Australia. Let us look at their report and see how intelligently they have come to the conclusion that we ought to breed goats. They state that the Angora goat will prosper " under adverse conditions." That may be a satisfactory rea-. son for breeding goats in the opinion of some honorable senators.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- Goats will prosper where sheep would die.
{: .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator HENDERSON:
-- Probably so. But let us strive to bring about conditions; that are not adverse, and to develop industries and breed animals that will be more useful to the. 'community than the Angoragoat. The experts say -
>Its fondness for scrub is a strong point in its favour.
Probably the experts have been considering the possibility of utilizing the Angora goat to clear the country.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- We have done it in Queensland.
{: .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator HENDERSON:
-- I wish we had some of those goats in Western Australia. We could give them a job in clearing some country that I know of! The experts also say -
>The export of mohair should become one of the staple industries of the Commonwealth.
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- That is the sort of rubbish we are expected to take as advice.
{: .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator HENDERSON:
-- I am not prepared to accept it as good doctrine. I believe that it would be irrational for us to grant a bounty for the breeding of goats ; and, at any rate, that course is one which. I do not intend to pursue. The experts also say -
>It has also to be remembered that the value of mohair in imported manufactured articles is very considerable. As the forms in which mohair articles come to our shores are so varied, is a matter of impossibility to define them, or state the total amount of the importations.
But are we, as intelligent beings, going to accept that as an argument why we should spend thousands of pounds in building' up an Angora goat industry? The paragraph which I have quoted is sufficient to prove to my mind that the experts did not even know what mohair was used for, and were not aware in what forms it was imported. They merely suggest that there' is a possibility of encouraging the. growth of Angora goats, and that the industry may become sufficiently strong for us to be able to export goat hair to other parts of the world- The proposition is so ridiculous that I do not intend to- discuss the report any further. I trust that the Government will consent to the item being omitted.
{: #debate-10-s1 .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator CHATAWAY: Queensland
-- **Senator Henderson** has succeeded in throwing a certain amount of ridicule on this item. I think the matter is very serious. The goat is undoubtedly a useful animal. A point that has been raised in its favour is that it may be used to' clear out scrub land. That argument is well, worthy of consideration. I should also suggest that it would be a valuable thing to utilize goats to clean up the ground where the fish preserving industry is going to be carried on. We know that in connexion with the tinning business, there is a large quantity of shavings which get spoiled, and the goat would be a very valuable adjunct. It would be practically giving a double bounty to the industry. The Angora goat industry has been tried more than once in Australia. The most successful experiment was made in the northern part of South Australia, where a man reared a: splendid flock. He did not make very much money out of the business, but, in a sense, the industry was quite successful, because upon his death his heirs sold the goats to persons in South Africa, and realized very good prices for them, lt has been put forward by the Sydney *Bulletin* that so long as rain falls only once, in leap year, and there is plenty of drought and an export trade in goats, the industry would be an excellent one. If the men would only die and allow their heirs to sell off the flocks, it might be successful. But, speaking seriously, there appears to be no suggestion that the industry can be established as a reasonably profitable one. To-day I was talking to a representative of a large pastoral institution. He said - " If we thought that Angora goats would pay us better than sheep, we would go in for them to-morrow, but we have had them, and we know that they are of no particular value." At a station called Warrinilla, in the Central District of Queensland, Angora goats have been kept for a large number of years. The goats are killed for the mutton; the pelts are sold with the wool on them, but, so far, although they have thousands of the animals, they have never thought it worth while to shear them. They used to keep sheep. I ask the Government to state plainly why they selected Angora goats in preference to Alpaca or Cashmere goats? At Angora, the home of the Angora goat, the total annual output of Angora wool is worth only ,£200,000. In France, the crossing of the Angora and Cashmere goats has produced a very satisfactory flock, and the wool has brought a very satisfactory price. I ask the Government whether, in the event of this item being passed, they are prepared to extend the bounty to the' better classes of goats or to a cross between the Angora, Cashmere, and Alpaca goats? If the Government are prepared to adopt that suggestion, we might obtain a new animal which would be very much more valuable than is the Angora goat. We are told that the latter can feed 6 feet in the air. If any honorable senator has seen an Alpaca goat, he knows that it can feed 10 or 12 feet *in* the air. It appears to be a cross between a goat and a camel or giraffe. It has a very large body and exceptionallylong neck, with a fine fleece of hair. It would be far more valuable to Australia than would the Angora goat. I suggest that the Government should agree to the omission of this item and bring in a special Bill dealing with the superior classes of goats. A reasonable objection has been raised to this item on the ground that a bounty is being offered to a class of persons who do not require it. The Angora goat industry is by no means a small man's industry. In various markets a stud Angora goat has realized five, six, seven, and eight guineas.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- Seventy guineas was given for an Angora goat quite recently.
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##### Senator CHATAWAY:
-- It must have been an exceptionally good one. In Angora and other places .so much is thought of Angora goats that a duty is imposed upon their export. In one country, it was made a capital offence to export an Angora goat. If a man wanted to start the Angora .goat industry in Australia tomorrow, he could not get any goats unless 3372 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.* he paid an exceedingly high price or imported them. I ask honorable senators whether the man who could afford to import Angora goats at a very high price requires a bounty of a few pounds upon the production of mohair? . It has also been objected, and not without reason, that if we pass this item the Angora goat will become a pest. At Warrinilla station, near Springsure, in Central Queensland, the Angora goats became a positive pest. My only experience with an Angora goat was when I was sitting at a whist table. It came through the door and upset the whole of us. That certainly was in the nature of a pest. But possibly goats may be found which will not upset a table. Another objection raised to the item is that if mohair were produced articles would be manufactured which would never wear out. For eighteen years I have had a rug which was made out of goat skin grown at Warrinilla, and it is still in a most excellent state of preservation. I doubt very much whether our manufacturers would get very far ahead if they manufactured out of goat- hair goods which would never wear out. That is a point which honorable senators who wish to develop the industries of the country might seriously consider. According to Webster's *Unabridged Dictionary* mohair is supposed to be the hair of the Angora goat, and, of no other. I ask the Minister to say whether the item of mohair is intended to apply to the hair of the Angora goat alone, and also whether he is prepared to include the hair of Cashmere and Alpaca goats? If it is desired to give a bounty upon the. production of the worst class of goat-hair, commercially speaking, the item should be passed. On the other hand, if it is desired to encourage the production of an excellent class of goat-hair the item should be withdrawn, and steps taken to introduce an item which would include Alpaca, Cashmere, and Llama goats, which have been tried in climates such as we have in Australia, and have been found more successful than the Angora goat. The experience inFrance has been that by crossing Angora and Cashmere goats a longer and finer fleece can be obtained than from the Angora goat, or the Cashmere goat. I ask the Government whether theyare prepared to make such an alteration of the item that the hair of a cross between the Angora goat and the Cashmere goat would be entitled to the bounty.
**Senator Colonel NEILD** (New South Wales) [4.12]. - Last week I did intend to oppose the item, and I am now rather halting between two opinions. During the week end I made some researches, and obtained some information of which previously I was not in possession. I find that the Angora goat in its natural home lives in a country of considerable elevation - in fact, mountainous country. The latitude of the Angora goat is exactly analogous to the latitude of the centre of Tasmania; in other words, the latitude of the home of the" Angora goat is 41 degrees N., and the centre of Tasmania is 41 degrees S. The latitude of the habitat of the Cashmere goat is relatively 35 degrees N., being 3 little warmer.
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##### Senator McGregor:
-- Look at the elevation of Cashmere.
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##### Senator Colonel NEILD:
-- There is the question of elevation of course. For the moment I am speaking of the question of latitude. It is clear that the Angora goat is an animal which naturally inhabits as fairly high latitude and low temperatures. If we place this cold-country living creature on our flat plains in our hot climate, and expect it to thrive, we shall take a verygreat risk. Years ago I was well acquainted with a farmer in New South Wales who had 1,200 of these cheerful' animals, which have since disappeared, From time immemorial goats' hair has been used in eastern countries for clothing fabrics. I am rather disposed to disagree with **Senator Chataway** about the Cashmere goat being much morevaluable than the Angora. The quantity of hair from the Cashmere goat is so much less that it ought to be more valuable. The difference in weight of fleece is about 2½ lbs. of Cashmere as against from 5 to *6* lbs., and sometimes as much as 15 lbs., of the Angora. **Senator Chataway** also raised the question of the crossing of the Angora and Cashmere goats in France. The. records* show that the attempts to establish the Angora goat as an animal of commerce in Europe utterly failed. The last of the Angora goats in France were sent to England as a present to the then Monarch, and were located at Windsor Castle as curiosities. The Angora goat was not known to European commerce until 1655. We find one of the earliest mentions of the use of mohair in a couplet by Pope, in the early part of the eighteenth century -
>Andwhen she sees her friend in deep despair
>
>Observes how much a chintz exceeds mohair.
*Bounties* [1 8 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3373
The Turkish Government attached so much value to the Angora goat that they prevented its exportation, under heavy penalties, for a long time. This prohibition lasted until 1820. A few bales of mohair reached England and were sold about this time at10d. per lb. In 1849 a flock was taken to the United States by a **Dr. J.** P. Davis. They have increased, and are now to be found in large numbers in Virginia and various other southern States and also in California and Oregon. There are said to be tens of thousands of them in the western States of America. Cape Colony began its export of Angora hair apparently about 1862, when 1,036 lbs. were exported. Like New Zealand flax, with its many varieties, there are a number of varieties of the Angora goat, and some of the failures that have taken place in Australia may be due to the fact that the wrong Angora has been imported,. There are no fewer than twenty varieties. At Lake Van, in eastern Asiatic Turkey, there is an inferior variety, and at Konich, in the south of Asiatic Turkey, there is another even more inferior one. There is a great deal of difference in the quality of the hair according to the year of the animal's growth. In Angora a goat is not clipped until its second year, and then yields the finest and most valuable hair. After that the quality falls away materially year by year. Some authorities allege that the female goat gives the best hair, others that the wether yields the best, but all, apparently, agree that the buck goat gives a coarse and by no means valuable fleece. Agood fleece runs from 4 to 5 inches in length. As **Senator Chataway** said, the value of the export of Angora hair from Angora is£200,000 per year, but he did not tell us that the weight is about 2,000,000 lbs. It is, therefore easy to make a calculation of the value of the hair per lb. There are several varieties of goats. I am not satisfied that, as **Senator Chataway** said, the Alpaca is properly classified as a goat. I believe thatit belongs distinctly to the camel family. The goats best known and recorded are the common goat, to be found established in Australia in all places where kerosene and jam tins abound, the Maltese goat, the Syrian, the Angora., the Cashmere, the Nubian or Egyptian, and the odd little dwarf goat of African Guinea. There are also crosses of all these varieties. The flocks of Cape Colony were originally obtained from Constantinople. A very valuable shipment, gathered from all parts of Asiatic Turkey, was taken to the Cape in 1879.
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##### Senator Keating:
-- Was it not the success that attended the industry at the Cape that led Turkey to prohibit the export?
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##### Senator Colonel NEILD:
-- Turkey only prohibited the export up to 1820. At that time they apparently weakened in their admiration for the festive animal. Some of the goats taken to the Cape in 1879 brought high prices. He-goats brought as much as£250 in Angora, and female goats as much as . £150.
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##### Senator Keating:
-- The . Turkish Government prohibited the export again in 1880, on account of the success that had attended the industry at the Cape.
SenatorColonel NEILD. - That was a new prohibition. In Asiatic Turkey£50 and£6o are quite usual prices for these animals. They are therefore of considerable importance. It is alleged that the Angora is the best of the goat family for eating purposes, its flesh most closely resembling mutton. To show that there has been some interest taken in the Angora goat business in Australia, I shall quote a few lines from a comparatively recent publication by the Department of Agriculture of New South Wales. I cannot give anything very much later, because only yesterday I had a long conversation with **Mr. W.** Scott Campbell, the head of the Agricultural Department of New South Wales, upon this subject, and he told me that his knowledge of the goat in Australia did not go any further than what I am going to quote now. He said, in an article entitled " From Colony to Commonwealth," in the *Agricultural Gazette* of New South Wales, issued in 1901 -
>A few Angora goats were introduced into the colony about 1832 to 1833 by **Mr. Alexander** Riley, of Raby.
>
>Southey, who wrote a work on Colonial Wools, saw these goats in England, which had been purchased at Versailles, in France. " This little herd," says Southey, " consisted of the original stock introduced from Angora and Cashmere, with their respective crosses." Mackenzie says that in a few years these goats increased to 300, and **Mr. Riley** exported three of them to the Cape of Good Hope, which sold there for£150. A **Mr. Campbell,** M.L.A., had a fine flock of these goats at a farm at Canterbury, near Sydney. For many years, **Mr. John** Black, of Muswellbrook, kept a flock of from 1,000 to 1,200 pure and crossbred Angoras, but they were removed from that place several years ago, and their ultimate fate cannot be ascertained. **Mr. R.** T. Keys, of Bengalla, tells me that his father kept a flock of a more pure type than those of **Mr. Black's,** which was imported from Victoria, 3374 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.* and although he imported pure bucks from time to time, the goats did not increase, and did not prove to be so profitable as sheep. This flock was sold to **Mr. Aarons,** of Dubbo. **Mr. Rex** Blaxland, of Fordwich, near Singleton, has a small flock of well-bred Angoras, which he considers will prove successful and profitable, particularly if attention to providing the proper sort of country be made for them. **Mr. G.** M. Simpson, of Glen Innes, has kept these goats for some years, and they are said to thrive there very well. It seems probable that in the near future far more attention will be given the Angora than has hitherto been the case, for it has been found a profitable animal in South Africa, and also in some portions of the United States, America.
The **Mr. Black,** of Muswellbrook, mentioned in that article, is the gentleman that I said I knew personally as possessing a flock of 1,200 head. Prizes were recently given in some of the New South Wales public schools for essays upon this interesting animal. I am in possession of the first few lines of one of these compilations, which runs -
>The Angora goat is well known by door mats and by chewing up clothes drying on a line. The he goat is called "Billy"- like **Sir William** Lyne and **Mr. Wilks.** The she goat is called" Nanny." There is an old song about she goats, which begins
>
>O Nanny, wilt thou gang wi' me,
>
>And leave for aye theflauntin' toun.
>
>The goat gives milk and a great deal of trouble.
>
>It eats posters and climbs rocks, but not trees.
It is not necessary to continue the quotation, but it shows that the subject of the Angora goat has been before the local world. There are at present in New South Wales two if not more flocks, totalling a couple of thousand head. In this schedule there is provision for a bounty to be paid according to regulations. How are those regulations to be drawn? Will they exclude the large flocks of Angora goats to which I have referred. If not, who but the owners of those flockswill secure the bounty? This is merely a proposition to hand over certain public moneys to gentlemen who by their own enterprise have shown that no bounty is necessary to establish this industry. I wish particularly to make the point that if this bounty is agreed to the gentlemen who now own stud goats will not be likely to sell one of them to anybody, and we shall have taken a step to prevent, rather than to facilitate the expansion of the industry. The man who has the game in his own hands is not going to give it away to other people who would compete with him. Those who now own flocks of Angora goats in Australia will keep them together, and no one else will have a chance to secure any of the bounty proposed to be paid. My information on the subject satisfies me that the Angora goat is a useful animal, and would probably thrive in certain parts of New South Wales, Tasmania, and Victoria. We cannot, however, hope that a rock-climbing animal, and one whose natural habitat is a cold and elevated country, would thrive on the plains in a tropical country.
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##### Senator Stewart:
-- What about sheep?
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##### Senator Colonel NEILD:
-- Many crosses have been made to arrive at the Australian merino, and I remind the honorable senator that the original of the Australian merino came from Spain, which is a little warmer than Angora. It is a business that might be developed, but the payment of this bounty would have the effect of retaining in a few hands the Angora goats already in Australia, and would prevent the expansion of the industry. There is a prohibition against the exportation of. these animals from Turkey, and on the authority of the New South Wales Commercial Agent at Capetown, and also of the Agricultural Department of New South Wales, I state that there is a prohibition of , £100 per head against the exportation . of these animals from the Cape. Where, then, are we to go for these Angora goats? Are we to go to the Western States of America for them ? I have shown that if this proposal be agreed to there will be no chance for people to buy them here. Of what use is it to grant a bounty which must go into the pockets of a few people who have already succeeded sufficiently in the industry to have gathered together fairly large flocks, numbering some 2,000 a piece. In the circumstances I feel that I can best help the industry by voting against the proposed bounty, the effect of which would, I consider, be disastrous in the direction I have indicated.
{: #debate-10-s2 .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator TRENWITH: Victoria
-- It seems to me that the disposition to laugh Angora goats out of the Bill is wearying. I do not know very much about mohair, butthe argument used by those opposed to this proposal seems to indicate that it is desirable to establish the Angora goat in Australia if it can be done. **Senator Chataway** spoke of these goats as being used for mutton, and, so far as I could gather from the honorable senator, they are not a bad substitute for mutton.
*Bounties* [1 8September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3375
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##### Senator Millen:
-- I should advise the honorable senator not to venture to feed a body of bush workmen on goats unless he is looking for trouble.
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- I have no personal knowledge of the subject, but people who profess to know something of the habits of the Angora goat have informed me that it will do well where sheep will not thrive at all. This is on country in connexion with which the great difficulty is a supply or water. Sheep could live on this country if they could get to the water and back to the feed in a reasonable time. They are, however, slow travelling animals, whilst the goat is an extremely active animal, and travels quickly. It is said that the Angora goat would do well on such country as I have indicated. I profess no personal knowledge on that point, but I do know that there is a growing demand in Australia for goat skins. A great deal of leather used in the manufacture of boots, for bookbinding, furniture covering, and some other purposes can be best made from the skin of the goat. In past times we have mainly imported that leather, because our tanners and curriers had not attained the degree of skill required in the preparation of the finer leathers. In recent years this particular branch of the tanning and currying industry has developed remarkalbly. I speak of this as a matter within my own knowledge, and in connexion with which I may claim to have special information. It is within my knowledge that, owing to the development of the industry, personal friends of my own are at present importing large numbers of goat skins from India.
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##### Senator Dobson:
-- The skins of what kind of goats?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- I could not say. I do not know whether the skin of the Angora goat possesses the particular qualities required, but I do know that goat skins of varying sizes are becoming urgently needed in Australia, because of the development of the tanning industry,to which I have referred.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- Does the honorable member know what a goat skin is worth ; I mean the pelt only ?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- No, but I can inform the honorable senator that one of my personal friends has considered it worth his while to take a trip to India, in order to make arrangements for a regular supply of goat skins for his purposes. When he gets them here, under existing conditions, he is put to a great deal of trouble by the Customs Department.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- Nonsense.
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- And very properly so. Precautions, in the nature of disinfection, require to be taken, since it would be a very dangerous thing to import from India without such precautions anything what might carry with it germs of the terrible scourges from which we know that that country continually suffers.
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##### Senator Gray:
-- Can we not get goat skins from any other country but India ?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- The gentleman to whom I refer may have been getting all he could from New South Wales, but I know that he went to India to make special arrangements for regular shipments. He is now importing goat skins in large quantities.
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##### Senator Gray:
-- What would the honorable senator call " large quantities " ?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- He is a man in a large way of business in the manufacture of these particular kinds of fine leather.
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##### Senator Gray:
-- How many hands does he employ?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- I should say about 200. I am speaking now only of the operations of one man.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- The honorable senator's point is that a great importation of these skins is going on, and we should produce them here.
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- Yes, and that there appears to be an increasing demand for goat skins, because of the higher development of our tanning and currying industry. We are now, with a considerable measure of success, manufacturing leathers which used to be imported in large quantities.
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##### Senator Dobson:
-- Granting all that the honorable senator says, how does he justify "a bounty for a common animal like a goat?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- Although the goat is a common animal, the industry we are dealing with has not attracted sufficient attention by local producers to enable them to supply local requirements.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- Obstinate people prefer to go on with the less payable sheep.
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- Possibly there is something in that.
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##### Senator Keating:
-- Butter comes from the common cow.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- Butter has been made for many centuries by English speaking communities, and has been made in 3376 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.*
Australia since its foundation, but it was the payment of a bounty that directed the attention of people to the advantage to be derived from its export in large quantities.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- The industry was growing every year.
{: #debate-10-s3 .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator TRENWITH: VICTORIA · IND
-- Undoubtedly , but the extraordinary growth of the industry was coincident with the grant of the bounty, and seems conclusively to have been caused by the payment of the bounty.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- If that be so the payment of every bounty should have been followed by similar results.
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- No; it is quite possible for us to make some mistakes.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- If we pass this item we shall make a mistake.
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- We have made a number of mistakes in Victoria in connexion with the payment of bounties, but the results which have been obtained have justified the adoption of the system wherever there seems to be a reasonable prospect of success. Bounties are only to be given, it seems to me, in cases where the success of the industries proposed to be established is of a problematical character. Where we have positive assurance that an industry can be successfully established, we do not require for it the assistance of a bounty. Therefore the fact that in some instances the payment of a bounty has failed to establish a particular industry is no argument against the system. I agree with **Senator Millen** that we should not give a bounty in connexion with an industry about which there is a strong probability of failure based upon our experience. But the mere lack of knowledge or of an assurance that it will succeed is not, I think, an argument against the payment of a bounty for an industry.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- Would the honorable senator offer a bounty irrespective of the success of an industry ?
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##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- Yes. The honorable senator says that the more problematical its success is, the more justifiable is the bounty.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- No, I agree that where, as the result of experience, there is a strong probability than an industry will not succeed it would be madness to offer a bounty for its development. It seems to me that from the speeches of the opponents of the measure it is probable that the industry will succeed. **Senator Chataway** gave us a very strong argument in favour of passing the item. He told us that in Angora an export duty was imposed on Angora goats so that people in other countries might not get an advantage of which the people in Angora then had largely a monopoly. He also informed us that in one country it was made a capital offence to export Angora goats. Was that because they were an evil, or because they were unprofitable, or was it because the industry was so profitable that the people wanted to keep it to themselves ?
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Is the gentleman who has the large industry in Melbourne doing anything to develop goat-breeding?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
**- His** business is not the production of skins, but tanning. **Senator Chataway** also pointed out that goats fetch considerable prices. He mentioned that six, seven, and eight pounds have been paid for goats, and **Senator Millen** interjected that he knew of a case where seventy guineas had been paid.
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##### Senator Chataway:
-- Some people pay big prices for postage stamps, but we do not grant a bounty on them.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- My interjection was to show that a bounty was not necessary when men can sell the progeny of goats at high prices.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- It appears therefore that goats are not the worthless nuisances that some people seem to think that they are. **Senator Chataway** said that in a region of which he had knowledge goats . were a pest, and I sought, by a friendly question, to ascertain why the people killed them off. I discovered that the people killed them off because sheep were more profitable. I do not think that it is a proof that an industry should not be established because it is not as profitable as sheep-raising. Few industries are more profitable than sheep-raising on suitable country. If we could establish a hundred industries, all of which would be nearly as profitable as sheep-raising, we should be doing a great thing for this country. It is argued that goat-breeding has been so far developed that a bounty is not needed. That would be a valid argument if the facts were absolutely correct. But the evidence merely shows that there are flocks of goats in Australia.if we can establish an industry which will be more profitable, and at the same time more widely spread, we shall be doinga good thing. It is not argued that the industry isnot profitable. It appears to be admitted that those who are raising goats are satisfied with their profits. **Senator**
Chataway instanced a case where a man had raised a number of goats, and on his death his relatives sold them, and did very well out of them.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Does not that show that no bounty is required?
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##### Senator TRENWITH:
-- The incident does not prove that, a bounty is not required. It merely proves that the industry had only been established .in a small degree. That is a strong argument' for inducing a very much larger number to enter into this profitable industry. At any rate, it is worth while to pass the item and try the experiment.
{: #debate-10-s4 .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN: New South Wales
-- When I listened to the earlier portion of this debate, I was inclined to think that the Government were open to censure for proposing to offer a bounty of 10 per cent, on mohair. But, after listening to the speech of **Senator Trenwith,** I think that the censure on the Government ought to be for not having offered a very much larger bounty. Because the argument of the honorable senator is that we ought only to offer a bounty where there is a reasonable probability of failure. If that be so, the amount of bounty ought to go up as the probability of failure becomes more pronounced. Following this line of argument, I say that the probability of failure in this case is so magnificent that the industry is entitled to a far greater bounty than a paltry 10 per cent. Turning to this wonderful document that has been put before us for the instruction and guidance of honorable senators who, like myself, claim no special knowledge of the subject, I wish to inquire what the reasons are for proposing to grant a bounty on mohair? What is the -object of a bounty? I assume that if a bounty is ever justifiable at all, the object is to encourage the establishment of a new industry. I suppose that **Senator Trenwith** will agree that we should endeavour most of all to establish industries of the smaller kind?
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- Why of a smaller kind ?
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I presume that the honorable senator would prefer a bounty on an industry which was likely to be taken in hand by small people. He would prefer an industry that was capable of being carried on by a hundred individual- proprietors rather than by one. I wish to consider the proposal from a double stand-point. First of all, is this a new industry? There are some who think with those who prepared the report before us that -
>In the arid portions of Australia, and especially where there is an abundance of scrub, the Angora goat thrives, and produces a heavy anu valuable fleece.
But if the goat is thriving and producing a valuable fleece in some portions of Auswhat reason is there for giving a bounty on mohair? Why should we befool ourselves with the idea that it is a new industry which we are seeking to establish when this report shows " the contrary ? What is the value of the statement which I have quoted, if the report is not merely a lot of inconsequential nonsense strung together by people who had to write something ? .If the Angora goat is already producing heavy fleeces in Australia, it is evident that it is not a new industry. I go a little further in the report, lt reads -
>Just at the present moment there is a danger that the high prices obtaining for wool will divert attention from the possibilities of the mohair industry.
What is the object of that statement? Is it desired to divert attention from an industry which is admittedly paying high prices to-day, in order that the people engaged in it may take up an industry which is going to give them less profitable returns? That is the only deduction which can be drawn from the statement which I have quoted - a possibility that high prices and big profits derived from sheep will divert attention from the less profitable Angora. Therefore, the Senate is to come in and grant a bounty for the purpose of inducing people to go into a less profitable industry to the neglect of a more profitable one. I have heard of reckless and frenzied finance before, but a more idiotic proposition than this I never heard of. But probably it is because of its character in that respect that it is included in the Bill before us.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- The honorable senator has misread the report.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I apologize if I have done so.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- At any rate, he is misconstruing it.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- To misconstrue a report is one thing, but to misread it is much more serious. I have quoted the report quite correctly. The *ne£* result of the bounty, if it is effective, is to be to induce people to leave a profitable industry, and to take, up one which is to be less profitable. I come to the next paragraph, and upon this I am going to base my main argument. It reads -
Still the mohair industry has good prospects, and in certain portions of our continent Angora goats will probably pay better than sheep.
I take it that it is assumed that there are portions of Australia where the goat may become more profitable than the sheep; but before I develop my argument, I" wish to take exception to the view presented by **Senator Trenwith,** when he pointed out that there are portions of Australia where the sheep can barely exist, but where the Angora goat could flourish and wax fat. There is a large amount of nonsense talked on this subject, but I decline to believe that the pastoralists of Aus- tralia are such absolute idiots as to go on wrestling with bankruptcy and sheep year after year if they could shake hands with affluence and goats at one and the same time.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- There are portions of Australia where there are neither sheep nor goats.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I am coming to that point. I am going to show why it is that where the sheep is not altogether profitable the goat is not bred. If you say, " Here is a big industry which' will be profitable if you succeed in it," and if that industry does not succeed, there is generally some reason for it. There is a reason in this case, and it is a natural one. A person might establish a whole flock of goats in the class of country referred to, and in five years the industry would probably disappear. That result would arise from the fact that the Angora goat is an extremely poor mother. An Angora nanny does not care whether she has her own kid or the kid of another nanny, or no kid at all. to follow her. That means that the only way in which you can succeed in raising goats is to have them shepherded in extremely small flocks. It therefore follows that this industry must be carried on under one of two sets of conditions. Either where you have small' holdings with family labour to do the shepherding, or where cheap labour is available. We can' dismiss that idea. An experiment in South Australia was carried on under those very conditions. Little flocks of goats were shepherded by black gins. It was work for which' the women were eminently suited. They saw that each kid, until it was old enough to battle for itself, was given a drink by some goat night and morning. Let me state the experience of
**Mr. Buckland,** a well known ' pastoralist of New South Wales,' who for the time being was caught bv the glamour which was thrown over .this industry. Having some scrub country, and being a man of enterprise and capital, he thought that he would pick up some of the good thingswhich were going. He purchased some high-class Angora goats, but- before very long he found, that in order to obtain any benefit it was necessary to minutely subdivide his paddocks. When he discovered! the indifferent maternal instincts of the nanny goats, he had yards specially., made for the nannies. A yard was so constructed that, while there were apertures over which the matured goats could jump, the kids could not follow. Two or three times a day some person had to go and drive the nannies into the yards to see that the kids got a drink. **Mr.** Buckland's statement is that whatever profit there may be in the industry under other conditions, it cannot be carried on in Australia except with cheap labour. That is the experience of every one who has embarked ir? the industry. It may be possible for a man to carry a 'limited number of goats where he has a family, or where he is in a position to employ coloured or other forms of cheap labour. But it will not become a large industry. **Senator Trenwith** has stated that in' Australia there is a class of country upon which the goat could thrive, and for which the sheep is not suited. No one would be better pleased than myself if I thought that we could bring arid country under profitable occupation by the goat or other animal. I am not prepared to concede to even the goat a superiority over the sheep in ninetenths of the dry country of Australia. The merino sheep is extremely tenacious of life. I have seen districts where all the rabbits have 'died from starvation, and the merino sheep have still lived. I doubt very much whether in a duel for existence the goat' is likely to have a better time than the sheep, except, it may be, in scrub country. I am dealing, however, with arid country, which we are told offers favorable opportunity for the development of the mohair industry. Bearing in mind that constant attention is required, a flock of goats cannot be turned out like a flock of sheep. It is necessary to have comparatively small flocks with constant supervision. It seems to me to be 'an industry which is more likely to be undertaken bv men with small families. But is that the
*Bounties* [18 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3379 class of country upon which we want to settle such persons? ' Are we desirous of bringing about closer settlement on the arid districts of Australia?
{: .speaker-K3G}
##### Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
-- We cannot get the other country because it is locked up.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- It may be true that land maynot be available under the conditions which the honorable senator likes, but it is ridiculous to pretend that there is no land in the better districts of Australia, and that, therefore, we are forced to send small people, whose principal capital is their labour, into the drought stricken districts.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- It is a fact, nevertheless. It is just as bad in New South Wales as it is anywhere else.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- It is not a fact. New South Wales may be as good or as bad as any other State, and whilst I am prepared to admit the difficulty experienced by men without capital in getting land which is worth money, still it is ridiculous to assume that in any State less affluent citizens have to be driven into districts which are so poor that **Senator Trenwith** says they are not capable of carrying sheep. We are not yet reduced to that position. In New South Wales Crown land is being taken up which is fit to carry sheep. But if the position is as my honorable friends assert, what is the alternative before us? Either we have to send small farmers into districts on which sheep growing will not pay - that isinto districts with a rainfall of from 6 to 10 inches - or we have to make the profitable sheep give place to the less profitable goat in the better districts. No one wants to see that alteration take place. There is not a member of the Committee who would advocate that where the sheep is being preferably carried to-day it should give place to the goat. The grant of the bounty would only be justifiable if it were possible to bring the goat into that class of country which at present is under equally or more profitable occupation. Where is the country in which that can be done?
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- There is a lot of that country in Victoria, small as it is.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- Where is the country which will carry the goat successfully and which is not under more profitable occupation to-day ?
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator Keating:
-- In Tasmania there is a good deal of Crown land on which the goat could be run, but which is not being profitably occupied.
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- Land which will not carry one sheep to fifty acres.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- If in Tasmania there is a large area of land which is eminently suited for the production of mohair, and that at present is unoccupied, may I ask why it is not occupied by the goat to-day ?
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator Keating:
-- Because there has not been sufficient inducement offered.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- Then a10 per cent. bounty upon the production of mohair is going to make all the difference in the world ?
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator Keating:
-- I hope so.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- My honorable friend must be full of hope. I am sure that it will come like balm to the wounded spirit of **Senator Stewart** to learn that in Tasmania there is available Crown land into which the small man can put his money.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- In Tasmania I saw some Crown land on the top of a mountain where even a goat could not live.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- We are told that a 10 per cent. bounty upon the production of mohair will induce a goat to go on top of the mountain and live there. **Senator Keating** will probably admit that if the goat would go there of its own accord and stop there the bounty would not be necessary. But it is because of the natural disinclination of the goat to starve that a bounty is necessary to induce him to make a special effort to live. That is the only justification I can see for the item. I have given very considerable attention to the question of establishing this industry. When, some years ago, the idea was mooted, *I* thought that there was a possibility of not only clearing up some land of mine which unfortunately carries a good deal of scrub, but also of making some money and being able to pride myself upon my superior knowledge and enterprise. I went to great trouble to get reliable information. I found that there was very little information to be obtained in Australia, but through the intervention of friends in London I managed to get some information from Spain. I had not looked into the translation five minutes before I realized that in Australia there was no chance of establishing the industry profitably; the principal reason being the extreme indifference of the nanny as a mother. That is the explanation of why 3380 *Bounties* [SENATE.]Bill. a flock of goats does not increase. Very many years ago **Mr. George** Murray, the owner ofland between Walgett and Brewarrina, took up some very high-class goats. For fifteen years I used to pass the place, and to notice that although the goats were breeding, there was always the same little flock of thirty goats. The goats were neither killed nor sold - they could just maintain their strength.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- Did not **Mr. Murray** eat some of the goats?
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- What would happen if a pastoralist attempted to supply goat mutton to the shearers' sheds when the honorable senator came' along? There would be the finest agitation that ever Australia witnessed.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- Goat mutton is excellent.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I know that it is regarded as excellent until it is offered to the shearers.
{: .speaker-KRZ}
##### Senator Lynch:
-- Used they to shear the goats ?
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- No, that is a mistaken notion. Mohair realizes the best value when it is plulcked or combed. It is not shorn in the places where the goat is grown. The object of the plucking or combing is to set hair of the utmost possible length, and, I. believe, to prepare the way for a good crop in the future. I ask honorable senators, if we have public money to waste, not to vote blindly for every proposal in the schedule, but to admit that some items are more desirable than others.
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGregor:
-- If mohair is not produced, no money will be squandered.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- What is going to happen is that **Mr. Blaxland** and a few other persons who have purchased highclass stud animals in the hope that the industry will catch on will derive all the benefit from the bounty. There is not the slightest possibility of the small, struggling farmer competing with such men. True Angora goats cannotbe obtained to-day, except at an expense which is absolutely out of proportion to the cost of sheep. A farmer to-day can purchase ewes at all prices, from 7s. to 15s., according to age and quality. There are half-a-dozen people in New South Wales who have a few highclass goats which; at the present time, owing to the craze or belief that there is something in this industry, are commanding high prices. The Government say they want to establish the industry, but their proposal is really to pay a bounty to those few gentlemen, for in no case is it likely to encourage an additional, and particularly a small, man to take the industry up.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- He would have to import.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- Importation is out of the question. America is probably the only country to which we could turn. This is an industry which, owing to labour conditions, must be carried on in small homesteads, if it is going to be a proper industry at all and not, as it is now, the breeding of a few. high-class animals. No small man is in a position to buy bucks at *£5* 5s. or *£6* 6s. each, or dams at *£2 2s.* and£3 3s. Has **Senator W.** Russell a friend, or even an enemy, whom he would recommend to pay those prices for Angoras in preference to buying a couple of rams or half-a-dozen ewes for the same money ? He would say, " No, travel the safe line ; put your money into sheep, and get a bigger return, with the certainty that you cannot well go wrong." I ask the Committee to view this item as if the money were their own. The industry is not such, at the present stage, and with the information before us, as justifies us in spending a single penny of the public money or* it. On the other hand, if honorable senators think, as they evidently do from their previous votes, that bounties are desirable, then, in the name of common-sense, let us concentrate the money upon items which have a very much better prospect of success, than the one before us.
{: #debate-10-s5 .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING: Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist
-- Similar arguments to those advanced this afternoon were used in the past in connexion with the establishment of many important Australian industries.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- The same arguments as have been used by the supporters of these bounties, were used in favour of bounties which hideously failed.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- No doubt. The reason why so many bounties failed was because of the conditions under which they were granted! Here, however, we have established, as a safe principle in the measure that production, and production only of the commodities shall be the first and' necessary ground of a legitimate claim to a bounty. The conditionsof production specified must be complied with. In other instances, bounties were granted when persons commenced to produce, rather than when they had actually carried their efforts to a successful issue. The same argument as was used, very effectively from his point of view, by **Senator Millen,** has been addressed to the Legislatures of the different States at different times during the last thirty to fifty years in respect to different Australian productions.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- And has been verified in more cases than it has been disproved.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- In most instances it has been absolutely disproved. I can appeal to Queensland senators to verify the statement that when it was proposed to cut up the larger estates in Queensland, it was asserted with some show of authority in one, if not both, Houses of the Queensland Parliament that the Darling Downs were so absolutely arid and unproductive that from one end to the other they could not produce a cabbage.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator St Ledger:
-- That was put forward years ago as a- sort of hoax.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- To prevent a railway being made.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I am simply stating the fact that that was said about what is now designated " the garden of the Commonwealth." **Senator Millen** quite legitimately advanced to **Senator W.** Russell the argument that he would sooner invest his money in ewes, so following the safe line.But if our people are always to adhere to the safe line, simply because they know that it means engaging in an established industry, what prospect has the Commonwealth of ever enlarging the area of its production ? I am speaking of this item just as I would of any other which has not yet found a place in the list of our productions. Mohair is an article which is more or less extensively used throughout the world. Is the Commonwealth capable of producing it? If it is, is it within the sphere of Parliament to encourage the people to turn their attention to its production ? The circumstances surrounding its production, referred to by the experts in their report, show that we can legitimately incur the responsibility of offering to people a certain percentage upon the production of mohair within the Commonwealth spread over a period of years. We simply hold out a prospect or promise to the people who turn their attention to the production of the commodity, that, if thev are successful in producing it, they will receive a certain percentage on the value of their product Honorable senators talk about spending this money. There is no such thing as spending it until, the production of the article has taken place. The passing of the item does not irrevocably commit the Government to the expenditure of the money. The Bill simply providesthat, on the production of a certain article under certain specified conditions, personsshall be entitled to claim and receive a' bounty proportionate to the amount thev produce. It may be that not half of the amount will be claimed. None may be claimed. Some honorable senators who oppose the item most strongly argue that there will be no mohair produced in the Commonwealth' at all. If not, then not a penny of the bounty will be spent. Thev have argued in regard to other items that no one in the Commonwealth would turn his attention to their production. If so, those honorable senators have nothing to fear. There will be no financial obligation involved.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- The honorable senator is beating the air.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- No one has used that argument more frequently with regard to other items than **Senator Dobson.** I am glad to hear his admission that his; arguments are only air. The expert's report shows that mohair is a very valuable article, largely used in manufactures. It is stated -
>All. the plushes used in American railway and street passenger cars are made -of mohair. The same material also ' finds employment in thefrieze and couch plushes which are used in upholstering furniture. Carriage robes, couch covers, sofa pillows and nigs are also manufactured from mohair.
>
>Most 'of the so-called astrakhan now so extensively used is made of mohair. It has all the beauty of the real article ; is much more durable; will never change its shade in sunlight or air, and is in no manner inferior to real astrakhan. In addition, this useful article is used, for many other purposes, including dress goods of various designs, coats and coat linings, table covers, mittens, gloves, &c. Angora nW are in good demand, while carriage robes of great beauty may be made from them. These skins are used largely in the manufacture of children's muffs, and as trimmings for coats and. caps. The finest Angora kid fleeces adorn the collar and border of' some of the ladies' most handsome opera cloaks. ,
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- We have all read that.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I am drawing the honorable senator's attention to it.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- I have read it halfadozen times. I look upon it as twaddle.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- It is very hard to satisfy some honorable senators. /A certain honorable senator complained the other day that I had not drawn attention to what the experts said about an item. Now, when I do it, a complaint is still made, so that whether I am quiet or whether. I am not, I am still met with complaints. The' experts give the following quotation from a recent issue of the *Pastoralists' Review -*
> The stud Angoras shown at the Royal Show, Sydney, by Messrs. Blaxland and Knox, were sold by auction ; one fetched 6 guineas, two 4 guineas, two 5 guineas each, one 5^ guineas, and one 5^ guineas. These goats were just six months old, by the imported American buck Uncle Sam, and were shown straight out of the paddock, never having been shorn. This year two tons of mohair have been exported, but the prices are not yet to hand. The world's production of mohair represents a value of about ^1,000,000 annually, of which Asia Minor contributes about ,£200,000, Cape Colony ,£600,000, and the United States of America ,£300,000.
Later on they say -
>The figures quoted by the Conference from' the *Pastoralists' Review* are apparently an underestimate of the- world's production, for Board of Trade figures show that the imports for 1905 into the United Kingdom alone represented a value of ;£i, 598,374.
Since this report was prepared, recent numbers of *Dalgety's Review* have contained references to the breeding of the Angora goat an Australia. In the issue of 10th June, j 907, appears an article dealing with Cape Colony, showing what an important industry this is to that part of His Majesty's Dominions. I have already drawn attention to the *Pastoralists' Review's* estimate of the world's production, which was apparently an under-estimate. Originally the production was confined to Asia Minor, but early in the last, century Angora goats were introduced into Cape Colony, and their introduction, has been so far successful that they have outstripped greatly the production of mohair in the home of the Angora goat itself.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator St Ledger:
-- They have had a black population there to look after the Angora goats.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- They require very little looking after, and therefore the fac tor of labour, which seems to be involved in the honorable senator's interjection, has very little application. In *Dalgety's Review* for the 10th June, in an article dealing with* "Cape Colony, Its Resources and Prospects," after dealing with the flocks of sheep at the Cape and wool production there, a reference is made to Angora goats, from which I quote the following -
>Allied to the sheep is the goat production, and the Angora is largely bred, there being 2,776,000 of these, yielding annually 8,956,000 lbs. of mohair, being more than a third of the world's supply. The Cape shares with Asia Minor and to some extent with California in the supply of this valuable product, of which Bradford is practically the only market, it being distributed from there, after being spun into fabrics, to various parts of the world.
It is further stated -
>In many districts of the Cape the Angora goat pays better than the merino sheep, mainly because it can stand the droughts better, being able to travel a longer distance for a daily drink. It is much hardier, and the loss from disease is consequently not so great.
Then reference is made to a matter of which **Senator Neild** spoke, viz., the endeavour on the part of the Turkish Government to prevent the exportation of the Angora goat from their dominions. They had noted the success which had attended the transplanting of the animal to Cape Colony. They had realized that the competition from that quarter was becoming fierce, and that they were perhaps going to be outstripped in the world's production of mohair. At all events, years ago they placed an embargo on the export of the animal. Still later, in 1880, in order that they should, if possible, corner the world's production of mohair, the Turkish Government again entered upon a policy which meant the prevention of the export of these animals from .their dominions. Later on, the article from which I quote says - and this bears to some extent upon remarks made by **Senator Chataway** and other honorable senators with regard to the comparative values of the fleeces of Angora and other goats -
>One discouragement of the effort for the improvement in the quality of mohair is the changes in fashion, some of these favoring the short and straight hair, during which the finer haired animals lose their value, while the contrary is the case at other times.
To a certain extent, the caprices of fashion determine the value of the fleeces of differentkinds of goats.
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- To a very large extent.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- That may be, but it is certain that from the fleece of the Angora goat a material possessing very durable qualities can be manufactured, and may be turned to useful account, not only in connexion with attire, but in connexion with furniture, the upholstering of railway cars, and in other ways where' fashion does not dominate the situation as completely as it does in respect to articles of attire.
*Bounties* [18 September, 1907.] . *Bill.* 3383
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- I hope the Minister will deal with the question of crossbreeds.
{: #debate-10-s6 .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING: Protectionist
-- I have pointed out that, so far as the fleece of the Angora is concerned, we have the certainty that a very durable material can be made from it. In "connexion with the fleeces of other kinds of goats, the caprices of fashion form a factor which cannot be altogether ignored. So far as mohairmay be used for articles of apparel and attire, it may be subject to fluctuations in value, but, so far as it is used for upholstering and furnishing, the circumstances are such that it is not so subject to fluctuations of value due to the caprices of fashion. The elements of durability of material and stability of price are, I understand, less marked in connexion with the fleeces of other kinds of goats than in connexion with the fleece of the Angora. Speaking of the goat generally, the article to which I refer deals with its value apart from the fleece. It is stated -
>It is hardly possible to estimate the sayingof both time and temper which a few well trained common goats will effect on a large sheep farm at times of shearing, dipping, dosing, or dressing when portions of the flock require to be led in succession into small enclosures to be caught, while their services in leading mobs which have to travel long distances through the Colony, crossing rivers, *&c,* are simply invaluable. Two such leaders or " voorloopers," as they are called, will take a large flock through a good-sized river in sections of one hundred or more at a time.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- Before the Minister passes from that article, I understood that he proposed to show that my statement with respect to the labour required was wrong.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I did not say that I was going to quote something to show that, but I said that I understood that the factor of labour does not enter into the question to the extent suggested by the interjection made by **Senator St.** Ledger. I believe the breeding of Angora goats can be carried on by persons settled on comparatively small areas of land which is unfitted for many of the other purposes to which land is usually devoted.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- If the land is inferior a small area of it will not be sufficient to keep a family.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- The land in some of the States is divided into three classes, and no one knows better than does **Senator Millen** that in the case of inferior land, areas which, compared with the areas of urban lands, or lands capable of intense culture, would be very large, are yet regarded as small areas. They produce very little and give very little employment. I understand that much land of this quality can be turned to profitable account if occupied by families who would give their attention, amongst other things, to the production of mohair. People might in this way be induced to occupy country which, even at the present time, we see little hope of turning to any profitable account. Long before I became a member of the Senate my attention was drawn to particular areas in Tasmania which I was assured by persons who had a knowledge of this industry in South Africa were as eminently suited for the successful prosecution of the industry as any place in the world of which they knew.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Yet no steps have ever been taken to start the industry there.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I have been told by visitors from South Africa, who came to Tasmania to look at our mining districts, that much of the country in the State which we looked upon as practically valueless might be turned to profitable account if people occupying it would go in for goat breeding, and the production of mohair. That was brought under my notice unsolicitedly by people who spoke with knowledge obtained in South Africa.
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- Angora goats have been kept in Tasmania since before the honorable senator was born.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- Where, and with what result?
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- On the east coast, fund with no result.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator CHATAWAY: QUEENSLAND · ANTI-SOC
-- The total export of mohair from Australia last year was 2 tons.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I do not think there is any record of the export of that article kept. As I have said, my attention was drawn by more than one person who had had South African experience, and knew something of the condition of the industry as carried on there, to the suitability for the carrying on of the industry of land lying between Georgetown and Piper's River, towards Back Creek, and over adjoining country. I was told by these visitors also that there were other parts of the State to which their attention had been drawn where the industry might be undertakenwith profitable results.I am satisfied that there are other parts of the Commonwealth in which land now held 3384 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.* to be practically valueless, and remaining unoccupied, might be turned to profitable account if we held out reasonable inducements to people to give some attention to an industry of this character. Any reference to the goat industry provokes a certain amount of mirth, but I am sure we are all interested in the endeavour legitimately to multiply the industries followed in Australia, and attract the attention of our people to profitable avenues of employment in connexion with production from the soil, which they might not otherwise be induced to follow. We desire to give them some assistance, when they do direct their attention to these industries, to enable them to meet the competition with which they will necessarily be faced from other countries where similar industries have been carried on for centuries, and where the conditions' are such that production must necessarily be carried on at a less cost than we could expect to prevail in Australia until the industries werefairly established.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- That is a good argument for a bounty on wool.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- Australia is one of the greatest wool producing countries in the world.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- Still our growers have to compete with wool produced more cheaply elsewhere.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- Where ?
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- There is a great deal of wool exported from South American countries, which is produced more cheaply.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- Our wool industry was established before theirs. I am speaking of countries in which these industries have been established for centuries.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- The honorable senator referred to countries in connexion with whose productions we should have to compete with cheap labour.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I never mentioned the word " labour " or the word " cheap." What I said was that we should try, in the early days of the production of these commodities, to give our own people some advantage which would enable them to compete with the production of similar industries carried on in other countries at less cost by reason of their long establishment. We must face the fact that in the establishment of a new industry within the Commonwealth we cannot look at once for the same results as might be expected from the skill attained in the carrying on of similar industries for decades or centuries in another country. It is well within the legitimate scope of our functions that we should offer to our own people some monetary inducement to turn their attention to productions of this kind. A later article in *Dalgety's Review* for the 10th July contains a further reference to this particular matter.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator St Ledger:
-- Is the honorable senator stonewalling the item ?
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- I have no desire to continue speaking, but if I said nothing about the item what would **Senator St.** Ledger say ? Some honorable senators opposite complain if the Minister says nothing in reply, whereas others complain if he says anything. In an article published in *Dalgety's Review* on July10th, page 63, reference is made to Angora goats. It says -
>All know of the enormous profit derived from the sheep industry - when the bad season' keeps away - and yet on rough country, covered with scrubby undergrowth and inveterate growing suckers after ringbarking, nothing would improve it as quickly as Angora goats. There is no 'labour to pay for doing the work, no scamping, when goats are kept on it. They do their work so thoroughly that in a few years the country is improved out of sight.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- Always on the condition that the goats are kept so close together that they have nothing to eat but the saplings, as I mentioned in **Mr. Buckland's** case.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- The article proceeds -
>The typical representative of Messrs. Blax- land and Knox, depicted on page 58, will show what high-class animals they are. If a flock be started on common-sense lines, say, withfifty common does, mated with a mature pure-bred Angora buck, and judiciously culled as the flock increased, one would soon possess a decent flock of scrub and undergrowth-clearing animal scavengers, and net a yearly increasing revenue from the venture. A great difficulty that presents itself to most graziers is that of restraining their migrations by fencing. Most folk think it is practically impossible to fence a goat in. This is certainly a drawback, but probably it will be solved by experiments "in the direction of erecting seven and eight-wired skeleton fences, and keeping them well strained. Rugs made from Angora skins have sold in America at four guineas each, and good skins often realize from 12 to 15 dollars each.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- The only fence that will keep them in is one made of the wire netting upon which the Government have placed a high duty.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- We shall, under Customs protection, be' making plenty of wire netting for fences to keep.
*Bounties* [18 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3385 thegoats within bounds, and we hope that flocks of goats will be brought into existence under the stimulus of a bounty. There is nothing in this proposal to suggest that the production of mohair is going to supplant the production of wool. But we want to see new industries established in Australia. We desire as far as we possibly can to diversify the employments of the people, to encourage them to give their attention to as many varieties of production from the soil as the soil is capable of maintaining. Although some honorable senators may be inclined to be mirthful over this proposal, it will be realised that Australia is quite as capable as South Africa of producing a large proportion of the world's requirements in this regard. It must also be understood that the passing of this item does not bind us to pay away the money. We are merely making a promise that if people produce mohair in such quantities as to commend the industry to us as being valuable, and if it is produced under the conditions prescribed in the Bill, the bounty will be paid. We hope by this means to encourage an industry which cannot at present be said to be established in Australia, and which without a bounty is not likely to be established for many years to come.
{: #debate-10-s7 .speaker-K7L}
##### Senator STORY: South Australia
-- I wish to explain why I propose to vote against this item. I firmly believe in the principle of paying bounties if by so doing we can establish industries. In this instance I believe that if the item were agreed to the bounty would be claimed, and that then the industry would fall off. Over thirty years ago in South Australia the experiment of breeding goats was entered upon by a man named Price Maurice. He was induced to try it through travelling ' in a part of Asia Minor, where the character of the land reminded him of some of the country in the hills above Adelaide, where he owned land. It is rocky and scrubby country. **Mr. '** Maurice persevered for a number of years, and got together a flock of a few hundred goats. When he commenced his experiment he had a very fine fruit garden. But by the time he had proved that the breeding of Angora goats was a failure, the garden was absolutely a thing of the past. Every tree was destroyed. Fencing could not keep out the goats. I think that this is an industry which only wealthy people are likely to take up. It would be almost impossible for small men to engage in it, because they could not combine other industries, such as gardening, with it. It would also be impossible to breed goats in the vicinity of a settled community. I do not know whether honorable senators are aware that an ordinary gentleman goat gives forth a considerable aroma.
{: .speaker-JXT}
##### Senator Colonel Neild:
-- He is simply perambulating *eau de Cologne!*
{: .speaker-K7L}
##### Senator STORY:
-- That in itself would be an objection to the establishment of the industry in the neighbourhood of any civilized community. I have even heard of horses shying at the smell of an Angora goat. **Mr. Price** Maurice's experience, although he greatly increased his. flock of goats was that the hair depreciated in quality. It was not nearly so good as the hair of the Angora goat in its native state. I believe that Messrs. Elder, Smith, and Company also tried an experiment with goats, which proved a failure, in the north of Australia. More recentlyMr. Kidman and another gentleman tried an experiment at the Peak Station, 600 or 700 miles north of Adelaide. That also was not a success. As **Senator Millen** has said, the mother goat does not look after heryoung, and close attention on the part of some one is required to insure that the kids dp not perish of starvation. That in itself makes it impossible to establish the industry on a paying foundation. If it had been possible to establish it, that would have been done years ago. The mere payment of a bounty of 10 per cent. will not have the 'effect of establishing the industry, though it may induce people who already possess a few goats to extend their operations for the sake of the bounty. I am satisfied, however, thatas soon as the bounty ceases, the production of mohair will fall off. and the money will be entirely wasted.
{: #debate-10-s8 .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGREGOR: South Australia.
-- I have listened carefully to the arguments advanced with' regard to this item. My belief is. that the Commonwealth would lose very little, if anything by granting the bounty. The country referred to by **Senator Story** upon which **Mr. Price** Maurice bred Angora goats is by no means useless, as the honorable senator seemed to indicate. The 'Government of South Australia re-purchased a portion of it some time ago, and I think they paid an average price of£4 or£5 per acre.
{: .speaker-K7L}
##### Senator Story:
-- The honorable senator is. wrong.
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGREGOR:
-- At any rate, they paid a good price. I know a gentleman who took up a portion of the land - not the very best of it either - and who is paying a rent of ^75 for about 175 acres. Therefore it cannot be such ' bad- land. The Government, in asking us to grant a. bounty for the production of mohair, do not contemplate that the industry will be carried on within, ten or twelve miles of one of the capital cities. The main argument that has been advanced for the bounty is that the industry could be conducted in rough country that is not suitable for sheep. Something has been said about the danger, of the bounty being secured by a very few individuals. **Senator Chataway,** however,' has shown that one' or two people have about 1,200 Angora goats at the present time. That is a very small number.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- He did not say that that was the total number.
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGREGOR:
-- Well, it has been mentioned that 4,000 or 5,000 lbs. of mohair are exported, showing, on the basis of 5 lbs. or 6 lbs. to the animal, that there cannot be more than 1,000 or 2,000 Angora goats producing mohair in Australia. The gentlemen who have the 1,200 Angora goats are not likely to receive the whole of the bounty,, and even if they did, what they would receive would not amount to much. On 4,000 or 5,000 lbs. of mohair, valued at 10d. to is. per lb., the bounty would not amount to more than *£3,0,* and if paid for ten years the sum received by the grower would not exceed .£300.
{: .speaker-KLZ}
##### Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD: NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913
-Colonel Cameron.: - Why pay away even that amount?
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGREGOR:
-- There is a possibility that by the payment of 10 per cent, on the value of the mohair produced we may stimulate a vastly increased production of mohair in Australia. To absorb the total amount of the bounty proposed by the Government, from 60,000 to 70,000 goats would .have to be kept. If the expectations of the Government are realized to any appreciable extent, it will become a very considerable industry. If in the United States and Cape Colony large areas of land, which are .almost unfit for other purposes, can be utilized in that manner, then the Government would be very foolish if it did not offer a bounty to encourage the occupation of such land in Australia, and thereby increase our sources of wealth. I agree that there is some force in the suggestion that the exercise of great care is necessary in regard to the increase of 'the flocks of Angora goats. But, as the Minister has indicated, if persons took up an area of from 2,000 to 10,000 acres of our back-country and engaged in this industry, in conjunction with other forms of grazing, they might succeed in making a living where that cannot be done now. I feel sure that it is with the idea of bringing about the settlement of that class of country in that way that the Government have submitted this proposal. If the experiment is not successful, the Government will pay practically nothing; but if it is successful, their action will be quite justified. I trust that honorable senators will consider this item just as seriously as they dealt with the other items, such as cotton and New Zealand flax, which are likely to prove a benefit to Australia when they are produced in a profitable way.
{: #debate-10-s9 .speaker-K78}
##### Senator ST LEDGER: Queensland
-- On this side of the Chamber we have largely regarded this Bill as more or less of a tragedy. In the circumstances it is quite fitting that the Government should offer up a goat, and . that the Minister of Home Affairs should prove himself a most skilful and loyal high priest at the sacrifice. I listened with considerable pleasure to his remarkable speech. Great stress has been laid upon the prospects open to small settlers who may engage in this industry in the droughty parts of Australia. But let me draw the attention of the Committee to' a paragraph in which the Queensland expert says -
>The owner of 160 acres could make a good . addition to his income by keeping merely fifty Angoras, allowing them plenty of scrubby country for a run.
As well as his area of 160 acres, I suppose -
>The mohair from- them would be worth *£,2* per annum.
In my opinion, the action of the Government in offering an inducement to a man to achieve that result is more or less foolish. A man who would embark in the industry in that expectation would be more- or less of a hero.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- With the bounty added he would get only ^"13 4s. a year.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator ST LEDGER:
-- Yes. So far as reports can be relied upon, the Minister has shown that in Cape Colony the industry has been a progressive one, and offers some inducement to persons ' to engage therein. It did not offer very much inducement to the unfortunate Australians who were deluded into going there. The magnificent potentialities of the goat industry in Cape Colony were not sufficient to provide the average Australian with an opportunity to get a decent living, and we had to bring him back. If the Angora goat industry is one of the finest industries of that Colony, I can quite understand the wisdom of the Australians in departing and allowing the Angora goat to flourish in its proper habitat - that is, a country in which there is a large coloured population. In the face of these reports and circumstances, the sooner the item disappears from the schedule the better. This side of the Chamber will be pleased if it is deleted, and I do not think that honorable senators on the other side will be disappointed.
{: #debate-10-s10 .speaker-K3G}
##### Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
-- When I entered the chamber this afternoon I felt inclined to vote against the item. I came here with an open mind, but the speeches of honorable senators opposite have convinced me that the proposal has some merits. Whether I agree with **Senator Millen** or not, I always enjoy listening to his speeches. On .this occasion, the acting leader of the Opposition was the last speaker. In the absence of **Senator Symon,** their leader, the little flock went astray, and got mixed up. I want **Senator Chataway,** if he can, to show that his opposition to this item is consistent. Although he described the goats as pests, yet he' pointed out that their skins are very valuable. He also mentioned that for many years he had possessed a rug or mat made from a goat skin, and that apparently it was likely to last for ever.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- After having been in use for fifteen years, it is in a perfect state of preservation.
{: .speaker-K3G}
##### Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
-- Yes. The opponents of this proposal- always talk about the interests of the working classes. We ought to encourage any proposal to enable the working classes to get an article which will last as long as the honorable senator stated.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- A hair shirt to wear' next to the skin?
{: .speaker-K3G}
##### Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
-- As they developed their arguments, honorable senators opposite pointed out that the goats are pests, and that if we offered a bounty upon the production of mohair, goats could not be brought in because -in Angora it is against the law to sell goats, and in South Africa goats are only sold at a prohibitive price.
I ask **Senator Millen** to justify such statements coming' from the Conservative side. I was amazed, too, to hear the remark that this bounty, if offered, would play into the hands of monopolists. It is we, on this side, who have to fight against monopoly. I have not been so rich as to possess a goat, but I know that in South Australia many persons can keep a goat and obtain good milk where the character of the country is such that they could not keep a cow. In those districts Angora goats are valuable. But the question of finding land for people, much less for goats, .is all, im-' portrait. I remember travelling through the district of Wirrabara, in South Australia, where the land was practically held by one or two men. In a portion of that country there was a small block of land held by a settler that was fit only to run goats upon. I was told that in that district, if they did not take up land of that class, they could not get any land. Honorable senators- on the other side are continually taunting the Labour Party. If **Senator McColl** were here, I might refer to some of the absurd statements which he has made in that regard. On this question, as on every other, the promotion of the best interests of the country is our main consideration. If we can by any means, even at the cost of a few pounds, help to establish an industry, we ought to do all in our power to achieve that object. But conservatism always cries out "Don't." My long experience of forty-one years in South Australia has made me familiar with the conservative cry. When some of . the best lands in the northern portion of South Australia were opened up under the credit selection system thirty-eight years ago, I was one of the first selectors. At that time, the pastoralist cried out, " If you go into that country, you will rue it'; for even the little birds cannot live there." It is now a land of plenty. The only regret I have is that land monopoly has driven more than, one-third, if not nearly one-half of the- people from the land. Conservatism always cries out, " That land is unfit to cultivate ; it is dangerous for you to go on it." When wepress forward and point out something, the reply always is, " This is not the time todo it; there will be some other time," or " This is not the Parliament that ought to do it; it should be done in another Parliament." The Conservativesalways say, "Do not do anything.'-
*I* admire **Senator Millen's** diplomacy. The way he puts his arguments makes a great impression on wayfarers that cannot see behind the scenes, but I am going to stand by the Government in this instance, as **Senator Millen** and his followers have convinced me that that is the right course to pursue.
{: #debate-10-s11 .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART: Queensland
-- The opposition to this item has astonished me. I am surprised that a body of intelligent men should so deliberately set themselves to obstruct the attempt to establish an additional industry in Australia. **Senator Henderson** seems to look upon the whole proposal as' a burlesque, but, knowing him as *I* do, I was astonished at the very small amount of information he seemed to possess on the subject. He was surprised that the Government should attempt to establish an industry which might flourish under adverse conditions. That idea seemed to him so ludicrous that he could not entertain it for a moment. But Australian conditions are more adverse at times than those of almost any other country. Australia -suffers occasionally from drought, but when the cattle, sheep, and horses die the goats in many parts of Australia continue to "live and thrive. Surely an animal possessing so much vitality, so easily fed, and adapting itself so remarkably to Australian environments, ought to get some encouragement. In many Queens-' land townships during the recent drought not a drop of fresh milk and no fresh meat .would have been obtainable but for the despised goats. , They lived, and frisked long after every other animal had disappeared. That fact ought to impress **Senator Millen** and others very forcibly and induce them to change their minds. We ought to encourage the production of animals which assimilate themselves to our varied Australian conditions, rather than* others which disappear almost altogether during times of drought. The goat is an extremely healthy and useful animal. It is probably the most useful that any smalT settler could have- about his premises. It provides goat mutton and. milk, and if this bounty stimulates the production of Angoras a trade in mohair will be established. The goats can give milk and grow hair at the same time. ' After being used for these purposes for a considerable period they can be eaten as mutton. I am inclined to think that behind the opposition to this proposal there is a feeling in the minds of some honorable senators that if the goat industry is encouraged the sheep industry may be injured.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- I do not think it can live alongside the sheep industry.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I think the goat will be utilized in those portions of Australia where sheep can live only with the greatest difficulty, so that if such an idea is prevalent honorable senators may dismiss it. **Senator Millen** made a great point of the fact that the Angora goat industry is not new.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- I did not say so. I said the experts' report said so.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Perhaps the honorable senator was taking his facts from the report. In any case, he argued that even if the industry were established by means of a bounty it would not be a new industry, and therefore ought not to be subsidized in this fashion. But attempts have been made in Australia to establish quite a number of industries. They have failed time and again, but ultimately have succeeded. We are attempting even now every day, every week, and every month to enlarge the scope of Australian industrial life and to diversify our industries. I am sure that we shall ' succeed, but if success is .to be our reward we must not be so faint-hearted, timid, and conservative as some honorable senators have shown themselves -to be this afternoon. They seem afraid to strike out, in any hew direction. They say, " Let us be content with such industries as we have."
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- I say, ' 1 Let us be cautious in the expenditure of public money."
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- No one counsels anything but caution. If the experiment does not succeed the bounty will not have to be paid.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- Cannot the bounty be expended and the industry . then collapse?
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- That may be possible. If success were assured from the very beginning in every industry there would be no trouble whatever. I can remember the time when the cultivation of wheat was looked upon as hopeless in Queensland. The squatters -who occupied the Darling Downs declared that it was impossible to grow a cabbage there.
{: .speaker-KRZ}
##### Senator Lynch:
-- Can" the honorable senator say that a bounty of 10 per cent., or 2.s. in the *j£,'* will mean in this' case the difference between success and failure?
*Bounties* [18 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3389
{: #debate-10-s12 .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I could not answer that question, but I am quite willing that the experiment should be tried. The Angora goat is likely to thrive in certain portions of Australia where sheep, cattle, and horses cannot be commercially remunerative to their owners. I see no reason why an attempt should not be made' to settle those districts. This proposal is a step in the right direction, and should have the support of every man who desires to see the area of our industries enlarged and widened. Spasmodic attempts have been made from time to time to establish the industry in Australia, and it must be admitted that to a very large extent they have failed, for obvious reasons.
*Sitting suspended from 6.30 to* 7. *45 p.m..*
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- In the first place goats were not fashionable. Very few people knew anything about their management, and no one cared to embark upon what was to him a new and unknown enterprise. Sheep, cattle, and horses held the field, and as honorable senators are aware, the agricultural mind is notoriously conservative. It runs in grooves, and is very much afraid of new ideas. Indeed, it is hardly possible to get the man on the land to break out in any new direction until some other person has, probably at great expense and much labour, blazed the track for him. If it is found that the enterprising individual hasbeen successful the new branch of industry is generally rushed, with the result that it is run to death, and is probably therefore counted amongst the failures.
{: .speaker-K7L}
##### Senator Story:
-- The goat track was blazed thirty years ago.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I was very much surprised and amused at one of the reasons given by **Senator Story** for voting against this proposal. He said that some individual in South Australia had gone in for the rearing of goats, and also had a garden, and that by the time he had established his goat industry his garden had disappeared. That any one should give that as a reason against the proposal we are now discussing is one of the most humorous things I have heard for many a longday. The man who has not sense enough to fence his garden if he keeps a goat should not be on the land at all.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- I understand that this man's goats had eaten his fence.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I do not know that the goats eat the fence, butI do know that their digestive powers are extraordinary, and that is one reason why we should pass this item, since it goes to prove, as I have said previously, that these animals can live where it is not possible for any other animal to survive. I wish to read a few extracts from the *Queensland Agricultural Journal.*
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- An excellent little publication.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It is a very good publication. In the *Journal* for the1st January, 1902, there is an article on the subject of Angora goats and mohair, from which I quote the following : -
>We have persistently advocated the introduction of pure Angora goat's into Queensland, and we have clearly shown that the mohair industry is a paying one, independently of the matter of goat skins and goat flesh.
{: .speaker-KAH}
##### Senator Walker:
-- The industry therefore does not require a bounty.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I am quite prepared for **Senator Walker's** interjection. If an industry is likely to pay it does not need any encouragement, and if it is not likely to pay it ought not to get any encouragement. That is the principle on which the honorable senator proceeds, and if we were all to proceed on that principle we should never do anything, we should be continually at a standstill, the command from head-quarters would always be, " As you were ! " I do not believe in that sort of thing. The principal law of human nature is progress. We must advance, or go back ; we cannot stand still. I suggest that we should go forward with the goats rather than go back with the sheep. Another reason why the goat industry has not progressed as it might have done is that the goat - I do not know why - is associated in the human mind with stupidity. I have met a great many goats, anda great many sheep, and I have known ' the goat to be one of the most knowing and shrewdest of animals. I do not know of any other that I could put in the same category in this regard. But in some curious way it is associated in the minds of the wise bipeds with stupidity.
{: .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator Henderson:
-- It is an insult to the goats to say so !
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It is; and it is an injury to the country to proceed on that assumption. We have had some evidence in support of my contention to-night. It would appear that this item is one to promote' laughter and amusement, playing and acting the goat, rather than serious business. We are 110t here to act the goat, but to promote the industries of he country. The article from which I am quoting goes on to say -
>We are glad to see that *Country Life* takes up the question, and we take from that journal the following excellent article on the subject, a portion of which relating to the Kilkivan herd has already appeared in this Journal : -
>
>Many people have been struck by the large number of goats to be seen in the townships ulong the Central Railway line and that of Dalby and Roma, and of late we have been besieged with inquiries as to whether grade Angoras could not be introduced in the place of, these flocks. Without much care or attention Angoras give a better mutton and yield a mohair which finds a very ready sale indeed. The mountainous areas of Queensland, the rough country of which is not suitable for other stock, and especially the arid western lands, would be very suitable ' for raising Angeras. . The old saying, " A goat will live where a sheep would starve," is very true. The goat is very hardy, a rough feeder, and the Angora is in no way inferior in constitution or in the capacity to live upon hard fare . than the common types.
I ' direct the special attention of honorable senators to this paragraph -
>On timber country, overgrown more less with gum and other members of the eucalyptus tribe, it would take three acres to carry a sheep and grow a fleece, the return being 40d. *[y* lb., at *yd.* per lb.). In similar country the Angora will do well at one to the acre, returning 4 lb. of wool, worth I2d., or, say, 48d. Three acres, therefore, return i44d. with Angora goats, as against 4gd. with sheep.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- (That estimate is based on a very low price for wool.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- There can be no doubt that the present price of wool is abnormally high. Every member of the Senate who knows- anything of the subject will admit that the present price of wool is very, much above the average price, and cannot be expected to continue for any' length of time.
{: .speaker-KNB}
##### Senator Guthrie:
-- The honorable senator is quoting the price in 1902.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I have quoted from an article published in 1902, before the boom in the price of wool took place. As surely as we have the 'present boom in the price of wool, and good seasons, so surely shall we have a succeeding- degression, when sheep will be at a discount, and the price of wool will tumble down to probably one-half the price at the present moment. I speak- with a knowledge of what has previously taken place, and what I think will inevitably be repeated in the future. I wish honorable senators to pay attention to this also -
>In Australia the mohair industry has never been taken up seriously. Sheep, cattle, .'and horses have had nearly all the- attention, and Australians are very conservative in stock matters. The first importation of Angoras was in, 1833 by a **Mr. A.** Riley, who ran them at Raby, New South Wales; at Canterbury Park, near Sydney, there was a flock ; **Mr. J.** Black, at Muswellbrook, had a flock of pure and crossbreds; and **Mr. Keys** had a fine flock, which ultimately went to the Dubbo district. The export of mohair from New South Wales in 1899 was 200 lbs. In the Singleton district the Messrs. Blaxland have bred up 20 pure stock Angoras, and seem inclined to persevere in the industry.
>
>In Victoria in 1856, the Zoological Society of Victoria secured seven pure Angoras from Asia Minor, and other small importations took place up to 1866, when 105 were received from Broussa, in Asia Minor.' With the view of encouraging the mohair industry the pure bred stock were distributed through the country, but so far no export of mohair is noted.
>
>As regards South Australia, the following from the *Adelaide Observer* of 1st June, 1898, will be of interest : - At Adelaide Sheep Market, on Friday week, Messrs. Elder, Smith, and Co. offered for sale, on account of the executors of the estate of the late **Mr. Price** Maurice, the famous Castambul flock of pure Angora goats. This flock was established - in 1870, in which year **Mr. Maurice** instructed an expert living at Constantinople to secure him a number of the best Angora goats obtainable. The agent accordingly purchased the goats, and they were landed in South Australia at the total cost of ^21 5s. per head. The animals, which were obtained in Asia Minor, formed the nucleus of the well-known Castambul flock.. There was also a subsequent importation, and in 1875 **Mr. Maurice** bought **Mr. W.** F. Haigh's entire Port Lincoln flock of 106 for ^558 10s. These were sent out by **Sir Titus** Salt. Ever since its introduction **Mr. Clement** Sabine has had entire charge of the flock, and has taken great pains to keep it pure. It was, in fact, the only pure bred flock of any size in the Colony, and its dispersal is a matter for considerable regret both on account of the picturesqueness of the animal and usefulness and its suitability to our climate. In the north Angoras have been crossed with the common goat, and in 1875 the cross-bred hair realized 2s. 4jd. per lb. net, the pure 'mohair at that time fetching 2s. nd. per lb. Since then the price has receded considerably, until last year it was is. 2½d. per lb. The crossbreds mentioned above were running at Pekina, and were boiled clown some years ago, their tallow realizing *£2* 15s. a ton more than any other tallow from Southern Australia ever fetched in London. The weight of mohair grown varies considerably according to the feed, but on bush country it does well, yielding from 4 to .6 lbs., and the bucks -from 6 to S lbs. Besides this, the skins are very valuable, and the meat is said to be excellent and free from any strong taste, In the United States the value of the industry has also been appreciated. The first importation of Angoras to that country was made in' 1848, and up to 1880, when the Sultan's edict prevented the further exportation from Turkey, 400 had been received. In 1899, after nineteen years of breeding, there were (estimated) 247,775 Pure bred Angoras in the United States. In Cape Colony alone it is estimated that there are 4,000,000 Angoras, and the export' of mohair last year (1900) was 9,000,000 lbs., of the value of £450,000. In 1899 the export was 12,800,000 lbs., of the value of £640,000 ; in 1897 *lt* was 12,100,000 lbs., of the value of £"576,644 - the discrepancy between bulk and value in the two years last quoted being accountable through market fluctuations. Surely, those figures will make people in this State think. Un to 1S72 in Cape Colony the mohair industry was but a very small thing. In 1861 the export was 7S4 lbs., of the value of £6r ; and in ten years the figures advanced to 867,861 lbs., and £58,823. The next decade saw a jump to an export value of £253,128; and in 1892 the figures were "10,516,837 lbs., and £373,810.
Before I quote further I should like to say that the import of mohair into Great Britain in 1905 amounted to ^1,750,000. So that apparently there is a considerable demand for that commodity.
In Queensland also something has been done in this matter. **Mr. Charles** Clark brought over to Queensland from Tasmania a number of Angoras, but they did not do. well at Talgai when run in flocks on the grass, but on bushes they prospered. **Mr. Willis,** of Springsure, has had a flock for some years, and gets a good price for his mohair. At Moura, near Banana, there is also a small flock. In the Kilkivan district there is a grade flock numbering about 400, including kids, and the skins range in prices from 5s. to £1. The owner of the flock says : - " We have as yet not sold any of the mohair. . . They (the goats) are very easily kept and very healthy. Whilst the cattle were dying with ticks and redwater the goats were feeding all around them, and were not in the least affected, nor did we ever find a tick on them. The flesh of the Angora is superior to mutton, being firmer in the grain, and that of the kids is a great delicacy." He also says : - " If there were a law for the protection of the Angora I would get a pure bred buck and thus improve the fleece, making it of value for export, the lower grades not being of much value."
There is another short article which I should like to read. I take it from the same journal.
We live in hopes of some day interesting farmers who own hilly, stony, scrubby country in the subject of Angora goats. We have given them a fund of information about these valuable animals, but beyond half-a-dozen inquiries little interest has as yet been roused in them. One man puts all his eggs into the wheat basket, another into the corn and potato basket, while a third will have nothing to do with anything but lucerne, yet keeps no sheep and does not rear lambs for the home market. . . . Here is an extract from the report of the Kansas Agricultural Society on Angora goats : -
They are a profitable animal in the feed lot; give them light conditions and the same amount of grain, they will take on flesh very rapidly and fatten in one-fourth less time than the sheep. They respond very quickly to good care. At the final test of all domestic animals - the butcher's block - the Angora goat is not found wanting. Their flesh in summer, when browsing, has a very delightful flavour between venison and mutton, which gives the name " venison " to their meat. Being a browser, like the deer,- it is right that it should assume the name of its meat. In winter, when fattened on grain, it loses that flavour ' but acquires a mutton flavour. It has none of that " woolly " taste of mutton, which is so objectionable to many people. Thousands are killed in all our packing houses and sold as "we'l dressed mutton." Only an expert can tell the difference, as their carcases appear the same when dressed and hanging in the meat market. They will dress out a larger percentage of meat than sheep. Hence it-is that they are much more valuable. Its meat is more juicy than mutton, and a finer flavour. Then you know what you are eating is absolutely healthy and free from disease. Thus we rind a new and profitable animal for" the farm which will thrive and fatten on that which curses the land, and it will take its place among the leading industries of the country.
{: .speaker-KLZ}
##### Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD: NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913
-Colonel Cameron. - Who is the author of this?
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It is an extract from the report of the Kansas Agricultural Society on Angora goats.
{: .speaker-KLZ}
##### Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD: NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913
-Colonel Cameron. - It is not one of Hans Andersen's fairy tales? .
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- There is nothing in the nature of a fairy tale about it. If there were probably the honorable senator would believe it. But because it is hard. unpalatable truth, he does not like to swallow it. I am not reading these extracts in the hope of converting those who have already stated how tHey intend to vote I am merely putting on record some reasons why this bounty should be given. The extracts may be the means of educating the public on the subject, if they should ever happen to read *Hansard.*
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Why not give a bounty " for reading *Hansard?*
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I am sure that if the electors knew of the gems of eloquence that are scattered broadcast through its pages it would not be the neglected publication that it is. 3392 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.*
{: .speaker-KAH}
##### Senator Walker:
-- I dare say the goats would eat it if they got a chance.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It would do them good. The honorable senator's speeches would be exceedingly fattening. The following extract is from the *Prairie Farmer,,* and is reprinted in the *Queensland Agricultural Journal* of1st December, 1899 -
>Goats are among the most profitable stock on a farm. Those who go in for the goat business extensively always find it profitable, but a small flock on every farm that has brush is nearly all profit. There is no animal that converts the weeds and brush into ready money like the Angora goat. They will eat almost every kind of weed that grows, even the jimpsum. They seem to be a blight to brush; they eat the leaves and the parent stocks soon die off. If they do not clean-cut your fence corners it is because they do not have a chance. Their wool is more valuable than sheep's wool, and one goat will eat more brush than five sheep.
{: .speaker-KOS}
##### Senator Henderson:
-- How doesthat tally with the honorable senator's previous statement that it takes 3 acres to feed one sheep when a goat will live on 1 acre? Now he tells us that one goat eats more than five sheep.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It gives me great pain to observe from the honorable senator's interjection that he is still further disclosing the fact that he really knows nothing about this subject. He asks me how I reconcile the two statements. I said,quoting from this book, that it takes 3 acres to maintain a sheep, while a goat requires only one. That is quite true. Why ? Simply because the sheep picks and chooses, and tramples down a great quantity of herbage, whilst the goat eats everything straight before it. I am not sure that if the honorable senator met a goat it would not eat him. The document from which I have quoted says that one goat will eat more brush than five sheep. Every one who is accustomed to sheep knows that that animal will not eat brush at all, except under . stress of famine. When there is nothing else for them to eat they may possibly pick a bit of brush ; but the goat takes to it almost in preference to anything else. Probably if it met a number of jam tins it would prefer them, but, in their absence, it goes for the brush.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- Can the honorable senator explain what kind of brush goats will eat? Surely they will not eat gum leaves !
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Goats will eat anything. The article continues -
>We are glad to be able at last to report a, decided and legitimate improvement in mohair, with an excellent demand at advancing prices and the prospects of a steady active trade during next fall and winter. Values in Europe have rapidly risen to the highest point known in years, with only small stocks available until the next Turkish clip. In view of the situation we feel safe in quoting for average domestic combed mohair 30 to 33 cents; good average, cents; superior, 38 to 40 cents; and really choice selected, 42 cents or more. -
{: .speaker-KAH}
##### Senator Walker:
-- When was that written?
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It was written in 1899. I shall not quote any more from the article because it does not apply to the present time.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- There has been a slump since then.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- There has been a slump in a number of things, and probably there will be a slump in a great many more. Not very long ago copper was at a very high price, but now there is a slump. There is a great deal more literature on the subject here which I could read, but I do not know that it is desirable to make any more quotations. I think I have read enough from writers who ought to be taken as authorities to prove that there is at least a very strong possibility of the Angora industry becoming an important Australian one if it gets the stimulus of this bounty.
{: .speaker-K7L}
##### Senator Story:
-- It failed when the price was three times as much as it is now.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Every industry which is now established in Australia failed at one time or other in its history.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- The beet sugar industry failed all over the world.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Every industry has failed at some time or other, not only in Australia, but everywhere. But is that any reason why we should abandon our efforts, sit down and do nothing, or implore Providence to rain manna upon us as. was done to the Children of Israel in the desert? It appears to me that the age of miracles is past. If we want to eat we must work; 'we cannot depend upon Providence, except within certain welldefined limitations. Notwithstanding the laughter of some honorable senators on the subject of goats, I believe that we are now discussing what may some day, with proper encouragement, be an important Australian industry.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- The honorable senator thinks that it will not pay without encouragement ?
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It may.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- According 1 to those quotations it ought to .pay without encouragement.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- I do not know of any industry that now flourishes in any State in Australia which has not been encouraged in some way or other by the Government.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- What about wheatgrowing ?
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- It has been encouraged in dozens of ways. In Queensland, for instance, the Government established an agricultural college. It spent thousands of pounds in trying to grow rustproof wheat, and succeeded-. Again, it tried to grow wheat which was more or less drought-resisting, and it succeeded.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Without a bounty.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Were not those experiments conducted at the public expense? There is not a single industry established in any State to-day which has not been assisted more or less by the Government.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- What about woolgrowing?
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Millions of pounds have been spent in fostering that industry.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Under a system of natural development.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- We have not what may be called a single_native industry in Australia to-day, except kangaroo shooting. Every other industry is what my honorable friend would call an exotic. The sheep was not in Australia when this continent was discovered by Captain Cook. Neither the cow nor the horse was here then. Every industry we have had its small beginning, was encouraged by the State, grew from little to great, until it became finally established, and in that way beneficial to the community at large.
{: .speaker-KNB}
##### Senator Guthrie:
-- And it is still being fostered.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Yes. The day of assisting the wool industry, the agricultural industry, the mining industry, the dairying industry - in' fact, every industry, is still with us.
{: .speaker-KAH}
##### Senator Walker:
-- Every industry, except the rabbit industry.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator STEWART:
-- Large sums have been expended by the State in trying to do
[I2°]
away with the rabbit. I only ask that a small sum should be voted to encourage the breeding of Angora goats, and the production of mohair. I hope that honorable senators will agree to the item.
{: #debate-10-s13 .speaker-KRZ}
##### Senator LYNCH: Western Australia
-- Whatever may be the fate of the item, it cannot be said that in the discussion goats have not received a very fair measure of attention. The Minister has referred to the operation of the bonus system in Victoria. According to my reading, the money from the Treasury got into the wrong hands, and did not by any means reach the pockets of the producers. The evidence given before the Royal Commission proves to the hilt that if the butter industry did succeed in Victoria, it was not by means of the bonus. It cannot, therefore, be cited in support of this item, to which I am opposed, because, in my opinion, it is utterly hopeless to expect to establish the mohair industry in Australia by means of this bounty. According to the reasoning of the Conference of Experts, an Angora goat will produce 5s. worth of hair per year, so that under the Bill a bounty of 6d. would be paid in respect of every goat. In view of past experience, I desire to know whether or not that sum stands between the failure of the industry and its success. This is a very serious proposal, because the sum of £20,000 is involved. As regards the schedule as a whole, I recognise that some of the proposed experiments may fail. If, however, it can be shown in the future that three-fourths, or even one-half, of the seventeen items have led to the successful, establishment of a permanent industry, then the ,£412,000 will not have been spent in vain. In view of past failures in every part of Australia, I think it would be an absolute waste of money to encourage the breeding of Angora goats. It has been said that they will thrive where sheep will not have a chance of living. We in Australia know far better than do American writers what is possible here in the direction of breeding and maintaining stock. This is essentially a wool-growing country, and therefore we do not need to look for guidance or advice to writers in American magazines. With regard to what should or should not be done in the matter of raising sheep, we all know that sheep have thriven on what was considered absolutely hopeless country. Oh dry ridges 3394 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.* sheep have found subsistence in the past. In Queensland, during the drought, sheep eked out an existence where it seemed utterly hopeless to expect them to live. In those districts, goats would not be one whit better off than would sheep.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- Yes. They could travel from water to feed, but the sheep could not.
{: .speaker-KRZ}
##### Senator LYNCH:
-- Sheep will subsist where not a blade of grass is to be seen, as I have observed in Western Australia. The gold-fields area has been described here and elsewhere, as well as in the press, as a desert, but I may inform honorable senators that a number of sheep and cattle are raised there. When. I was approaching the first sheep station in that district, I was passing over a succession of ironstone, apparently barren, ridges, interspersed with patches of salt-bush. Riding along on my bicycle, I inquired for the sheep station, expecting to reach a stretch of fine undulating country splendidly grassed. I did not know until I readied the homestead that I was actually on the station all the time when travelling over that apparently barren country. That is the place where some of the best sheep in that State are successfully reared. In that part of the West there is no pastoral land as the' term is understood in the eastern States, yet sheep have thriven there. They are driven great distances to the market at Perth, and make the very best mutton, raised as they are on the salt-bush flats. Since 1835, when the introduction of Angora goats was first attempted, other efforts have been made by shrewd men to establish the industry, andhave all ended in comparative failure. If that is so, then, so far as the future is concerned, a bounty of 6d. per head will not stand between the success and failure of the industry.
Question - That the item "Mohair" be agreed to - put. The Committee divided.
AYES: 8
NOES: 18
Majority ... ... 10
AYES
NOES
Question so resolved in the negative.
Item negatived!
Oil materials supplied to an oil factory for the manufacture of oil -
Copra; (period) 15 years; (rate of bounty) 15 per cent. on market value ; (maximum payable in any one year)£5,000.
{: #debate-10-s14 .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN: New South Wales
-- It is obvious that a misprint has occurred in the experts' report, which is published under the authority of the Government, and from which we are supposed to arrive at a judgment. It is stated that " The return per tree may be taken as about fifty nuts per annum, producing 1 gallon or a little over of oil,2½ gallons of which weigh 1 cwt.., being worth about 33s." I never heard of any liquid with so great a specific gravity that 2½ gallons weighed 1 cwt.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator Keating:
-- It is an obvious error, but I am not able to explain it.
{: #debate-10-s15 .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator CHATAWAY: Queensland
-- We are entering in this proposal, not upon the question of whether copra will or will not pay, but upon a serious question of Australian policy. According to a recent return, Australia draws her supply of copra almost entirely from New Guinea and the adjacent South Sea Islands. In 1905-6, we imported from New Guinea, the New Hebrides, Fiji, New Caledonia, and other South Sea Islands copra to the value of , £130,893. In 1906-7, the value of the imports from those places increased to £208,244. I was unable to ascertain from the returns available exactly how much came from other places in those years, so I went back to 1905. I found that the total imports of copra to Australia in that year - presumably from January to December - amounted to a value of . £119,551, of which only £413 worth came from India. This shows that Australia draws practically the whole of her supply of copra from New Guinea, the New
Hebrides, Fiji, New Caledonia, and other South Sea Islands. Australia having assumed control of New Guinea, I take it that we expect to develop the resources of that country and make it thriving and prosperous. Most of us, also, have the idea that in the not far distant future Australia will spread the aegis of her protection over the South Sea Islands generally, and in consequence will endeavour to develop their industries. That being so, the Government seem to be taking a somewhat serious step in urging us to give a bounty to encourage people in Australia to develop with white labour certain industries which can be far better developed in New Guinea and the South Sea Islands without any bounty at all, and with the labour there available. Before we undertake to give a bounty to people in Australia to develop the copra industry we should seriously consider whether, by so doing, we should not be pledging ourselves directly or indirectly to protect them in that industry against the inevitable competition of New Guinea and the South Sea Islands. We have no evidence at present tlo ,'show that the production of copra will be in any way successful in Australia under white labour conditions. I have seen it said somewhere that in the district of Mackay there is a splendid and successful cocoanut plantation. I admit that it is a wonderful grove, and a most beautiful sight. It was planted by a white man twenty-five or thirty years ago. In the meantime he made nothing out of it. It was merely a hobby with him. It is now leased to Chinamen, who are doing nothing to make copra. The river that runs not far away is taking far- more interest in the trees than are the' Chinamen, as it is gradually eating into the grove, and washing them away to sea. We are told that there are splendid cocoanut trees growing on the islands along the Queensland coast. I remember the time when they were planted. I know the people who went round and were supposed to be looking after and cultivating them. It is not more than two years ago that I visited the islands myself, and saw the trees. They have been planted for seventeen or eighteen years, and are just about coming into bearing. It is perfectly true that they have been neglected, but we shall hear them quoted by-and-'by - they have already been quoted in second-reading speeches - as an instance of the wonderful way in which cocoanuts will grow up and down the Queensland coast. I do not deny that they will grow there.
But I certainly deny that they will grow in such a way as to justify the payment of a bounty under this Bill to induce people to undertake their cultivation. Without going into the economic questions as to whether cocoanuts 'will grow in the Commonwealth, whether we can produce copra from them, (whether the business can be made to pay with white labour - I do not mean to say that white men could not do the necessary work - I say that the Government must" first answer the question : Are we going to start an industry in Australia by means of al bounty, and in connexion with which we shall employ only white labour, which must come into direct competition with the natural industries of New Guinea, New Caledonia, and the South Sea Islands, over which we all hope Australia will before very long have a controlling influence?
{: #debate-10-s16 .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING: Minister of Home Affairs · Tasmania · Protectionist
-- I have been somewhat surprised by the remarks of **Senator Chataway.** The statement has been reiterated during the discussion on this Bill that its primary object is to create new industries, by -which the, at present, unproductive and unoccupied lands of Australia may be turned to profitable account. If we are t<j. stay to consider whether these articles can .be produced in competition with other parts of the world, it must be admitted that we should logically apply the same reasoning to everything that is at present produced within the Commonwealth. Are we . to apply that reasoning to the important sugar industry of Queens-, land, and say that because sugar can be produced in New Guinea and elsewhere beyond the borders of the mainland of the Commonwealth we should withdraw the bounties at present, being paid to those now engaged in producing sugar in Australia! by means of white labour? Apart from what may be produced ' in New Guinea, Fiji, and elsewhere we hope to consider the peopling of our own territory, and the turning of our own soil' to account. We are all more or less agreed that it is desirable that this country should be held by people of our own race, and certainly of our own colour. What we desire under this measure is to encourage diversity of production, and to induce people to turn their attention to the production from the soil of articles of commerce which have nor yet received the attention of settlers in Autralia.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Might I remind the Minister that whilst sugar is consumed within the Commonwealth we shall have to depend upon an export trade for the consumption of copra?
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- That might be so, but there is to-day a great demand in the world for copra, which1 is very largelyused for the manufacture of soap and for other purposes.
{: .speaker-KVD}
##### Senator Mulcahy:
-- The fact referred to by **Senator Gray** would make a tremendous difference. If we have to depend upon an export trade we must sell the article exported at the price quoted by competitors producing it more cheaply.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- Quite SO ; but the time will come, and I think in the very near future, when the production of sugar in Australia will have overtaken the local demand.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- It has done so now.
{: .speaker-KPE}
##### Senator KEATING:
-- We must then look abroad for our market for sugar or the industry must remain stagnant unless we can increase the population of Australia, and thus increase the local' demand for sugar. We can only hope to increase our population by offering profitable employment in a variety of industries for the people whom we induce to come here. What we have to consider is whether we can produce this commodity in the Commonwealth under fair conditions. If we can, is it not our duty to encourage people to give their attention to the industry? I hope honorable senators will consider the item from this point of view.
{: #debate-10-s17 .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN: New South Wales
-- The statement we have just heard from the Minister is of very great importance indeed, not merely as bearing upon this item-, but as containing a declaration of Ministerial policy with regard to Papua and other islands adjacent to Australia.
{: .speaker-K7D}
##### Senator Stewart:
-- Why should we trouble about Papua when we have our Cwn territory to develop?
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- Here is another honorable senator who asks why should we trouble about Papua, and I ask the Minister why the Government propose to levy a burden upon the taxpayers of 'Australia under the pretence that it is necessary to develop Papua if we are not to bother about that Territory ? I will not say that we should be candid and honest in the mat1-"!-, but, at least, let us have sufficient common-cense to refuse to vote the £20,000 which the Ministry annually asks us to pass under the pretence that it is necessary for the development of Papua.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator Findley:
-- It is -right that our first consideration should be for the Commonwealth.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I admit that our first consideration should be for the development of Australia, but if we are to stop there, we should refuse' the annual vote which we are asked to pass for the development of Papua.
{: .speaker-K8T}
##### Senator Trenwith:
-- That is another question.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- It is involved in the question we are considering. If the Minister's statement, and the interjections of honorable senators mean anything, then in voting ,£20,000 annually for the development of Papua we are guilty of a pretence to Great Britain, and, at the same time, to those whom we invite to settle in the Territory.
{: .speaker-K3G}
##### Senator W RUSSELL: SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP
-- Can the honorable senator prove that statement?
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- The Minister has proved it. He has said that the object of the Government in this Bill is to create new industries in Australia to settle our unoccupied lands and establish industries, which are to be carried on with a certain standard of conditions, and should not be brought into competition with similar industries carried on in Papua and elsewhere under inferior conditions. In this particular industry we must necessarily come into competition with one that is native to Papua.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator Findley:
-- That applies to every item in the schedule.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- It certainly applies to many of the items, but it particularly applies to copra. The prospects of success in this industry in Australia held out by the report of the experts is extremely slender. On the other hand, we have every reason to believe that copra can be produced successfully in Papua. If that be so, seeing that the destiny of Australia, and even the development of our sub-tropical districts, can in no sense be said to depend upon this industry, which, after all, can mean but very little for the mainland of Australia, whilst it may mean much for Papua, surely we can leave the development of this industry as one of the inducements offered to the people whom we are inviting to settle in Papua. If we are rat prepared to do that, it would be more honest and business-like if we said at once that, while we are prepared to hold Papua,
*Bounties[1* 8 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3397 we are not prepared to develop that Territory. It canbe developed only in one way, and we cannot expect people to settle in the Territory if they are given no prospect of a market for the things which they produce there.
{: .speaker-JZC}
##### Senator Major O'Loghlin:
-- If that argument holds good, the Northern Territory can never be developed, because all these plants can be grown more cheaply in Papua than in the Northern Territory.
{: .speaker-KLZ}
##### Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD: NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913
-Colonel Cameron. - We must tackle the problem of the development of Papua.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator Findley:
-- The Northern Territory problem is of more importance to us.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I am trying to show that whilst the establishment of this industry in Australia might be compared to a drop in the bucket, it might be considered the whole bucketful for Papua. We have voluntarily undertaken the management and development of that Territory. We are under an obligation first of all to the native races, and under a solemn obligation also to the people whom we invite to settle there.
{: .speaker-JZC}
##### Senator Major O'Loghlin:
-- The honorable senator has not demonstrated that Papua is better adapted to the production of this particular article than is the Northern Territory.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- I have not thought it necessary to demonstrate what the casual student of the ordinary literature put into the hands of every school boy should be aware of. The Minister asks us to give a bounty to encourage the production in Australia of what is being produced naturally in Papua.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- We are importing copra from there now.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator MILLEN:
-- That should sufficiently demonstrate that it is more a natural product of that Territory than of the mainland of Australia. I regard our obligations in connexion with Papua as serious, and if we are not prepared to make even the slightest sacrifice for that Territory we should say so. We must recognise that it is one of our vulnerable points. It is the one Possession of the Commonwealth where we come cheek by jowl in contact with a foreign power. In every other portion of the Commonwealth we have the ocean between us and foreign powers, but in New Guinea we have Germany and Holland on our border-line. It may be that we need not seriously consider Holland, but Germany is certainly a power with which the Motherland may at some day have to try conclusions, and Papua is one of the outposts of our portion of the Empire. We must not forget that on the development of Papua the safety of Australia may to a large extent depend. We wish it to be settled by people of our own race, and I ask whether it would not tend to the development of the Territory which we desire if we left the prosecution of this industry as one of the inducements which we might hold out to our own people to occupy the lands of Papua?
{: #debate-10-s18 .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator DOBSON: Tasmania
-- **Senator Chataway** has done very good service in pointing out to the Committee, and particularly to the Minister, that this item involves a question of policy. Until we get the lead of the Government in laying down our policy it is stupid to be discussing these items. As New Guinea is a Territory of the Commonwealth, we should have some policy for its development. The Government are proposing the payment of bounties to our people on the mainland to enable them to compete with our people who may wish to carry on these industries in our Territory of Papua. I do hope that if the Minister answers **Senator Chataway's** arguments he will not read page after page from the experts' report, but will tell us what the policy of the Government is. **Senator Findley** seemed to think that **Senator Millen** was inconsistent inasmuch as his argument might apply to any item in the schedule. But that is not so. It will be found that Papua can grow rubber and copra as well as they can be grown in any part of the world. We believe that tobacco and cotton can be grown in the Northern Territory. One country is fit for one thing and another country for another. The policy of the Government ought to be to find out what our Territory in Papua is fit for, and not set it competing against similar industries in the Commonwealth. In my secondreading speech I pointed out the farce of trying to grow rubber in Australia when certain men in Melbourne have already provided£10,000 for establishing the industry in Papua. What is the use of setting up a rival industry here? We have every kind of climate in Australia, and surely we do not need to compete with our own Territory. The admission which the Minister made to **Senator Gray** ought to be decisive as to the item. He told us that Ceylon exported oil and copra to the extent of , £1,730,000 in 1903. The Minister admits that if we are to make a success of the copra industry we shall have to ex- port a great part of the oil. Surely that admission reduces the case for this item to a farce. How can we compete against the black labour of Ceylon and pay freight charges to the other end of the world with any hope of success? We have no hope of establishing a permanent industry by means of this bounty.
{: #debate-10-s19 .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator GRAY: New South Wales
-- I confess to a feeling of sadness that the Government should persist in this item. If ever there was a case of shamefully throwing the people's money away, it is this. There is neither rhyme nor reason in the proposition. I venture to say that no business man who knew the simple A B C of the subject would consider for a moment that the bounty could possibly result in any advantage' to the Commonwealth. I thought that I had placed such facts before the Senate in my secondreading speech as to show how utterly insane this item is. I had really ventured to hope that after consideration the Government would withdraw it from the schedule. The firm with which I had the honour to be connected, and which is the only firm that .has a copra mill in operation in Australia, uses only a small proportion of the oil which it crushes here. The balance is exported to Liverpool and Marseilles.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator Findley:
-- Do all the manufacturers of soap and candles buy from that firm?
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator GRAY:
-- No.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator Findley:
-- Where do they get their oil from?
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator GRAY:
-- A very large proportion of the copra produced in the Pacific Islands and in Ceylon is shipped direct to Marseilles. Although the firm with which I was connected uses a very large amount of copra, it does not use anything like a large proportion of the total quantity produced in the Philippines, Ceylon, and the Pacific. The proposition is so -utterly absurd that I cannot imagine any one possessed of ordinary common-sense voting for it. Copra brought from the Pacific Islands costs from £12 per acre to produce from the time the nuts are put into the ground until the trees bear fruit. I venture to say that, by using white labour and producing copra in the Commonwealth, the cost of production would be from £35 to £45 per acre. The five processes connected with copra production, after the trees begin to bear, cost in the islands about *£2* per ton. In Australia they would cost about *£6* per ton. Is it possible to conceive that . any man in his senses would put money into growing' cocoanut trees in Australia when he knew that by investing the same money in the islands he could get three times as much profit? ' Furthermore, the price of the oil extracted from the nuts is absolutely subject to market conditions in London and Marseilles. If we produced in Australia more oil than was sufficient for our own> needs, we should have to export the balance. It would have to be sold at open market rates in competition with' oil produced incountries where cheap labour is employed. , Is it not reasonable to assume that the money proposed to be spent in this directioncould be utilized to greater advantage elsewhere? Would it not be better to use it in assisting the natives of New Guinea and the other islands in which we have interests to develop industries? I trust that theCommittee will hesitate before sanctioning, such an outrage upon all business principles as the expenditure of this money would be.
**Senator FINDLEY** (Victoria) [9.12I. - The arguments that have been advanced as to why the item should be deleted from the schedule come rather late in the day. If they are sound arguments as to why we should not pass this item', because cocoanuts grow naturally in Papua, they should be applied to the whole schedule, "because they are equally applicable to all the items.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- Cotton is not grownin Papua.
{: #debate-10-s20 .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- Every article mentioned in the schedule can- be profitably grown in Papua. It has to be remembered that, for some months past, we have been seriously concerned with the fact that. ir> the near future, a tentative agreement made between South Australia and the Commonwealth with regard to the Northern Territory will have to receive consideration. I do not think that there is any difference of opinion as to the advisableness of the Commonwealth taking over the Territory thoughwe may differ about details. We are notgoing to take over the Territory to play with it, but to develop it. The Government are submitting a policy of paying bounties inorder to encourage tropical plantation there. **Senator Chataway** urges that, because Papua is part and parcel of the Commonwealth, we should be mainly concerned with it in regard to this item.
*Bounties* [18 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3399
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- I urged nothing. I simply asked the Minister to tell us what the policy of the Government was.
{: #debate-10-s21 .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- But the honorable senator showed his hand. We all know how he intends to vote on this item. Certain honorable senators seem to be protectionist mad in regard to some tropical products. I know that recently a deputation of Queensland senators waited upon the Minister of Trade and Customs, and desired that a duty should be placed upon bananas grown in Fiji. It is said that Fiji bananas are better than Queensland bananas.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- The deputation asked the Minister that the duty should not be taken off.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- It comes to the same thing. The senators from Queensland want protection from the banana point of view, but not from the cocoanut point of view.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- Does the honorable senator expect the Commonwealth to own Fiji?
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- Time after time we are asked what is the opinion of the experts in these matters. I do not take the opinion of **Senator Gray** as that of an expert, although I admit that he has given very serious consideration to this subject. I prefer to take the opinion of the representatives of the States Governments who were called together to consider these matters and submit a report to the Federal Government.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- This has been my business.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- It has been part and parcel of the honorable senator's business to get the cocoanut oil as cheaply as he possibly could. We are here, however, to consider the proposal from the point of view of the Commonwealth and its citizens. In their report the experts say -
>The cocoanut palm flourishes in the coastal portions of tropical and sub-tropical Australia. While no systematic attempts have been made to cultivate it in this Continent, isolated plantings Slave proved very successful. There is no; doubt that it will grow luxuriantly along our northern seaboard. Quite a number of products can be won from the cocoanut palm - a fact that makes its cultivation in Australia highly desirable. A cocoanut plantation takes about five years to come into bearing, and when once established lasts for 60 or 80 years. Probably no plantation requires less labour and expense to keep *it* in profitable condition.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- That is quite true. It is in the production of the copra that labour is required. ,
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- Apart from the fruit which it bears the tree itself is profitable. The copra is obtained from the tree.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- What other part of the cocoanut tree is profitable?
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-Other products besides the oil are extracted from the cocoanut.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- But the honorable senator referred to the tree itself just now.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- There are five products in connexion with the cocoanut. All that the honorable senator seems to be seriously concerned about is soap and bubbles. That this is a big industry in some parts of the world is well known to every honorable senafor. When I, in company with certain members of this Parliament, journeyed to the Northern Territory a few. weeks ago, we got into conversation with some of the passengers. For instance, we heard that one passenger was the possessor of the island of Cocos, that he had 10,000,000 cocoanut trees, and that each tree was valued at£2 at the least.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- He was pulling the honorable senator's leg.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- It was stated that he was worth at least£20,000,000, and, judging from other statements which were made, the probability is that the amount was not over-stated.
{: .speaker-KAH}
##### Senator Walker:
-- It sounds like one of de Rougemont's stories.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- Apart from that, we know that the industry has proved highly profitable to all those who have embarked therein, not only in the Cocos Island, but in the Philippine Islands. It is well known that when the Philippine Islands became the property of the United States many Americans embarked in the industry there.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Scores of persons were ruined before that event took place.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator St Ledger:
-- The United States want to sell the Philippine Islands now.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- Many men who went to the Philippine Islands as soldiers took up land at the conclusion of the war, went in for cocoanut plantations, and, according to statements which were made to me when I was there about two years ago, they are well-circumstanced to-day. Others with whom I had the opportunity, 3400 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.* of conversing assured me that little or no labour was required in connexion with the plantation, and further than that there was not much trouble in connexion with the industry.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- How long is it since they went there?
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- In 1898, I think.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- It takes six years for a plantation to become fruit-bearing.
{: .speaker-KTF}
##### Senator McGregor:
-- These men took up old plantations.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- After the war ended, there were difficulties in the way of peaceful settlement.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- For some time after the war was ended there was internal trouble. As a matter of fact, there is trouble existing there now, because many of the Philippinos are in a semi-savage state. But the fact remains that many plantations were established shortly after the conclusion of the war. It has been stated that the United States show a disposition to get rid of the Islands. It is not because certain men have gone in for cocoanut plantations there that the Americans want to get rid of the Islands, and we do not know that the statement to that effect in the press is absolutely correct. Anyhow, the industry has been well established there by white men, and it has enabled them to become fairly well circumstanced. I believe it is an industry which ought to be encouraged here. Whatever one's feeling may be in regard to Papua, my first considerations are for the Commonwealth. I do not intend to argue whether certain industries could be carried on much more advantageously in Papua. I contend that in Australia every encouragement should be given to the industries which are provided for in the schedule, irrespective of whether it is more costly to encourage those industries by white labour as against industries which are established under different conditions in Papua.
{: .speaker-K6L}
##### Senator Chataway:
-- Copra from Papua is admitted duty free.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- It is very little that **Senator Findley** will allow to come in free from anywhere.
{: .speaker-JYX}
##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- I believe in protection, and if I had my way I would build a wall round Australia so tush that it would not be possible to bring in any goods except by means of a balloon. We are not discussing the Tariff, but a Bill to give encouragement by way of protection to industries which, according to the opinion of experts, can be established to the advantage of Australia and its citizens. I intend to support the item.
{: #debate-10-s22 .speaker-K78}
##### Senator ST LEDGER: Queensland
.- I only rise to refer to an analogy which has been instituted in regard to the bounties upon the production of copra and some other products, and the bounty for the sugar industry in Queensland. When we Queenslanders speak about assistance which might be given to certain industries, and resist other proposals, we are eternally taunted with the statement that the bounty granted to the sugar industry by the Commonwealth was a signally wise act, and that thereforewe from Queensland and other supporters of. industries are bound to support every wild-cat scheme which may be submitted in this Bill. It is high time that another aspect of the question in regard to the sugar bounty should be considered. Because if honorable senators are going to argue from that analogy to every product which the Minister has included in the Bill, then I think they are neglecting to take into consideration one very essential factor with regard to Queensland's treatment of the sugar question. Night afternight we hear the view put forward that' the Commonwealth has been the saviour of the sugar industry by reason of its bounty, and we are repeatedly reminded of how much the Commonwealth has done in that direction. It is always forgotten by honorable senators on the other side that long before the Commonwealth interfered or, if they prefer the word, assisted the industry, we in Queensland had spent . £500,000 in its support. Had it not been for the expenditure of that money there would not have been a sugar industry for the Commonwealth to give a bounty to. The citizens of Queensland willingly assented to the credit of the Treasury being pledged to the extent of *, £500,00.* When the Commonwealth came into existence it found a sugar industry strongly established in Queensland by reason of that mortgage or assistance, and the taxpayers are now paying interest on the money. If honorable senators add the Commonwealth effort, whatever it may be, to what Queensland gave to establish the sugar industry in order to make it a means of profitable employment for white men ; if what the Commonwealth did for the sugar industry is to be introduced as an argumeint in favour of supporting a bounty upon the production of copra and
*Bounties* [1 8 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3401 other wild-cat schemes, I ask honorable senators to remember that the analogy is false, and not to forget that we in Queensland have done more for the sugar industry than the Commonwealth can or' will do. All the factors ought to be taken into consideration by honorable senators when they are considering a bounty for copra or sugar. It was Queensland which established the sugar industry; itspent its money freely, and unless the Commonwealth is prepared to do the same with regard to other tropical products of that kind the experiment is likely to be a failure.
{: #debate-10-s23 .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY: Queensland
-- I do not want the statement of **Senator St.** Ledger to go forth as a true representation of the state of affairs so far as the sugar industry is concerned. The reason why the Queensland Government invested public money in the industry was not that it should be preserved for white men.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator St Ledger:
-- I thought it was.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- There was nothing in the Bill which applied to white men.
{: #debate-10-s24 .speaker-10000}
##### The CHAIRMAN:
-- I ask the honorable senator not to pursue that subject. I allowed **Senator St.** Ledger to reply to the statement made by **Senator Findley.** but I cannot allow the debate to proceed any further on those lines.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- When **Senator St.** Ledger makes a statement of the kind which he did, surely, sir, I have a right to put the facts before the Committee.
{: .speaker-10000}
##### The CHAIRMAN:
-- The Question of the sugar industry was introduced by **Senator** Findley.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- I did not intend to introduce the question of the sugar industry, but I do not desire **Senator St.** Ledger's statements to go abroad unchallenged. The reason why the Queensland Government put half-a-million of money into the industry was that the planters complained that they were altogether under the rule of a monopoly, from which they wished to be relieved.
{: .speaker-K78}
##### Senator St Ledger:
-- To make it a white labour industry.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- There was no Question of white labour in it at all. Nothing was clone for years to prevent the introduction of kanakas from the South Sea Islands.
{: .speaker-KAH}
##### Senator Walker:
-- Did they not make it imperative that white labour only should be employed in those very central mills?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- White labour was employed in the mills, but all the work outside could be donebykanakas, Chinese, Japanese, or any other coloured labour. In fact, Japanese were employed in the mills, because one or two of them were killed by the bursting of a centrifugal in one of 'the mills at Mackay. I was in the Queensland Parliament at the time, and know exactly the conditions. The argument advanced against the item now under discussion can be advanced against every other item in the schedule, as **Senator Findley** points out.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Can the honorable senator quote any item where the disparity between the cost of production here and in the islands is so great?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- There would be practically the same difference so far as coffee is concerned.
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- If that is so, why not leave one small ewe lamb for New Guinea ?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- I do not see why that suggestion should be made, seeing that the same conditions apply to sugar, rice, coffee, rubber, and every other item in the schedule. According to the evidence taken by the Royal Commission on New Guinea only a little while ago, all that is asked for by the settlers there, in order to develop "the island, is that their products should come into Australia free. They say that they will then be able to compete most successfully with any of the similar industries which we have established in Australia. Some of the witnesses were civil servants, and others were men who had been settled in New Guinea for many years. This was part of the evidence -
>But do you think it would induce men to come and develop those industries if a preference were given in Australia? - Yes, that would be better. I think that if experts were to report as to the fitness of the country for growing sugar, coffee, and rubber, and a preference were given in Australia, it would be well.
Questions were asked also with regard to the Australian Tariff, which operated against New Guinea equally with other places outside the Commonwealth. It was referred to as "the hostile Tariff."
{: .speaker-KUL}
##### Senator Millen:
-- It would be extraordinarily inconsistent if we paid bounties to develop certain industries here, and then granted preferential treatment to New Guinea, so as to allow the same products to come in here and compete with them. 3402 *Bounties* [SENATE.] *Bill.*
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- I am opposed to that preferential treatment. The people in New Guinea want it. It would apply to nearly every item of tropical agriculture in the schedule. What they are asking for in New Guinea is practically what we have no intention of granting as a Commonwealth. That is, therefore, one of the best reasons why we should offer bounties to build up industries inside the Commonwealth. No one can say that the land in the northern part of Australia is not as good as that of New Guinea for growing these products. There is in New Guinea an unlimited supply of coloured labour to grow copra, coffee, sugar, and rubber. If we intend to allow the products of that coloured labour to come into Australia free, what is the use of giving bounties for anything? We might just as well admit free the products of the coloured labour of Asia or any other country.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Does the honorable senator expect any one to invest money in planting cocoanut trees in Australia with the knowledge of what the effect will be?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- Yes. The honorable senator stated that a large amount of money is being invested in the South Sea Islands, that Australia is not the market for their products, and that they have an unlimited supply of coloured labour. The same conditions apply to New Guinea. Money can be invested there,and the markets of the world are open to the products of their coloured labour. Australia says to those countries, " You can send your products in here at exactly the same rates as other people"
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Can the honorable senator point out where the profit is to come from for the producer?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- Is there anything that is more profitable at the present time, or that is inducing the investment of more money, than copra-growing in the South Sea Islands?
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- It would be absolutely unprofitable here under present conditions, because it would cost three times as much.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- That is only the honorable senator's statement. If the industry is unprofitable here this bounty will not be spent. A certain quantity will have to be produced, according to the regulations under the Act, before the bounty can be claimed. That applies, not only to this, but to other items. This is the evidence of the Hon. David Ballantine, M.L.C. -
>Do you consider that there are in this country areas of land sufficiently large and fertile to profitably grow coffee, rubber, and sugar? - Yes, and nearly every other tropical product.
>
>Do you consider that before these productscan be grown successfully it is necessary that the hostile Tariff should be removed, or at any rate a preference given to New Guinea products? - Speaking of coffee-giowing, it would give a great impetus to it if a reduction were made in the Australian duty.
>
>If it were impossibleto get the duties completely removed, would it stimulate the local) industry it a preference were made in their favour ? - Yes.
>
>How much copra was exported last year? - 828 tons.
>
>Do you think that industry is going to increase? - I think so, more particularly as the value has gone up quite recently. It now fetches £14 per ton, while a few years ago it was only
*£7.*
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- It has gone black now.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- It has not gone back to anything like the original price. If they produced copra when it brought £7 a ton, they can go on with its production now when it brings £10, because they have an unlimited supply of coloured labour, and about as cheap coloured labour as it is possible to obtain in the world. **Mr. W.** H. Luff, a trader and storekeeper, and also the New Guinea agent for the whole of the pearling fleet in Torres Straits, was asked about the sugar industry -
>Have you had any experience of sugar country in Queensland? - Yes I have. I was manager for Nolans Limited, at Geraldton, for twelve months.
>
>Have you seen any of the sugar country in the Western Division ? - Yes.
>
>How do you consider that country compares with the Queensland sugar country? - I think it compares very favorably with the Johnston River, particularly one river, the Oriomo.
The Johnston River country is the best sugar producing country in Australia today. There is no richer land in Australia. With their climate and rainfall they have just about as heavy a production of sugar there as in any part of Australia. Yet here is a man with twelve months' experience as a manager who tells us that there is the same kind of land in New Guinea. Not only that, but this product is indigenous to New Guinea. Then he talks about cotton, as follows -
>With regard to cotton, I have distributedseed to various chiefs of the different villages, and the reports I have had from them show they are doing remarkably well. The trees are now 10 feet high, and they have been planted18
*Bounties* [18 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3403 months. The cotton is Caravonica. The natives also grow tobacco.
Then, speaking generally, do you consider the Western Division suitable for sugar, cotton, and cocoanut plantations? - Yes.
If the Committee are not prepared to grant a bounty for copra, then the same thing must apply all round. There is no doubt that Australia can use a considerable amount of cocoanut oil, and also cocoanut refuse, which is given as food to stock. We have often had a considerable call for it. Linseed oil cake is not the only food of that kind given to stock. I do not know that cocoanut oil cake brings so big a price in the market, but, at the same time, it can be manufactured in Australia from material grown in Australia. It is manufactured now from the copra imported from the South Sea Islands. The cocoanuts are grown in the South Sea Islands, brought here, and crushed. The oil is then sent away to the old country for sale. If that can be done now, so far as the South Sea Islands are concerned, can it not be done, even with a Tariff, in the case of the New Guinea cocoanuts?
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- It can be done if you like to pay a sovereign for five shillings.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- That is exactly the same argument as has been urged against everything that is produced in Australia to-day - we can get itcheaper from some other part of the world if we are only prepared to allow it to come in free.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- Each tub stands on its own bottom.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- Yes ; but the honorable senator, and those who think with him, advance the same argument against the establishment of every industry sought to be established in Australia. If we permit the free introduction of products of coloured or any other kind of labour from outside Australia, we cannot hope ever to establish tropical agriculture or other industries. It is said that we have New Guinea now, and that we are eventually going to take in all the islands of the "South Seas. It may be added that at some time New Zealand is also likely to be a part of the Commonwealth, and we shall then have to deal with the productions of all those places. But to say that, because many years hence the Commonwealth will include all these places, is areason why we should not establish these industries now is equivalent to saying that in Australia we should do nothing until we know what is going to happen twenty years from now.
Every one in the southern part of the Commonwealth, including honorable senators opposite, are talking of the necessity of populating the Northern Territory and North Queensland. But of what use would it be to bring people to those places unless there is something which they can do when they get there ? Unless the Commonwealth is prepared to spend money in order to induce people to start industries in the tropical portions of Australia, it is useless for honorable senators to say that we want white people in those portions of the Commonwealth to assist us to defend Australia in the event of something happening.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- Does the honorable senator think that people will go to those places to engage in industries which require a bounty ?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- I believe that the population of the Northern Territory will increase just as the population of Northern Queensland is rapidly increasing. It is not many years ago since there were very few people in Northern Queensland, and they were engaged only in carrying on cattle stations around the Gulf and in York Peninsula.
{: .speaker-JVC}
##### Senator Dobson:
-- Has Canada voted £500,000 for bounties?
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- No; but Canada has spent large sums of money in opening up country, and thus giving people an opportunity to settle on the land. The first people to engage in a settled industry in the North of Queensland were the miners, and when some of the smaller gold-fields no longer paid, the miners were induced to go into agriculture, and settlement in the country rapidly became closer. Only a few evenings ago it was said that, because of a slackness in mining at Charters Towers, people there were going in for the pro- duction of cotton. Mining has preceded agriculture in every portion of Australia. If the payment of a bounty will induce people to enter upon these agricultural industries, it is well worth our while to provide the necessary money when we know that the bounties are only to be paid after the articles for which they are offered have actually been produced.
{: .speaker-KMT}
##### Senator Gray:
-- The honorable senator will admit that it is very cruel to invite people to embark in an industry which we know beforehand will not pay.
{: .speaker-K8W}
##### Senator TURLEY:
-- Wedo not know anything of the sort. The people who will embark in these industries will know exactly what they have to expect before they start. They will know what is the world's market for a particular article, what can be done in the way of its production in Australia, what it will cost them to - establish a plantation, and the amount of the bounty they will receive on their produce. If, knowing all the circumstances, men go into this industry, it will be because they have a reasonable prospect that it will pay. The same thing applies to the production of sugar. When Government, assistance was offered in connexion with that industry, while I admit that a number of people who embarked in it did not make a success of it, the prospects of the industry improved, and it is a greater success to-day than it ever was before in the history of Australia, that being due to the assistance which has been given to those who" are engaged in it. Honorable senators opposite appear to forget that the products referred to in the schedule are to be grown by white labour only. If this principle has been applied successfully to the growth of one tropical product, what right have we to suppose that it cannot be successfully, applied to another?
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##### Senator Gray:
-- I never argued that cocoanut trees could not be planted by white labour.
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##### Senator TURLEY:
-- I did not accuse the honorable senator of doing so.n What I have said is that it is one of the principles of the Bill that white labour only shall be employed in these industries. Men embarking in them will know the conditions under which they must be carried on, and the bounty they will get on a certain production.
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##### Senator Gray:
-- Should not the Government give some information as to the actual facts in each case?
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##### Senator TURLEY:
-- I take it that if the Bill be passed the Government will take steps to make widely known the conditions under which these bounties can be earned, with the object of inducing people to take up these industries. If honorable senators will read the report of the New Guinea Commissioners they will find that New Guinea offers opportunities for the development, of tropical agriculture. I am told that since the publication of the report applications have been received for a considerable area of land in the Territory. » When people realize that they could get land in New Guinea at a reasonable price and a supply of labour, they have shown themselves prepared to engage in tropical industries in that country. People would surely be prepared to do the same thing on the mainland of the Commonwealth if it can be shown that there is a reasonableprospect of success. I believe that the Government deserve, and will receive, commendation and support in every portion of Australia for the efforts they are prepared to make to induce people to settle ira Northern Australia, and to satisfy the cry which has been going up year after year from honorable senators opposite, and from the press, that it is time something was done to people the northern portions of Australia.
**Senator Major O'LOGHLIN** (South. Australia) [9.50]. - I have approached the consideration of the Bounties Bill with a desire to support it in its entirety, although I recognise that many of the proposals that it contains are in the nature of experiments. 1 agree with **Senator Stewart** that if we allow prognostications of difficulty to frighten us we shall make no advance, and shall remain in a state of stagnation. I have said that I am not prepared to vote for every item in the schedule, unless it is demonstated that there is a reasonable prospect of the successful establishment of the industry ' to which it refers. I must confess that up to the present time I consider the case for this item one of the weakest so far advanced. I have not been impressed by the argument with respectto Papua. I have no doubt it might be shown that many of the products of tropical agriculture, which the Bill is intended to encourage in Australia, are perhaps better .adapted to Papua thaneven to Northern Australia. But if before . we attempt to help the industries of the Commonwealth we wait to see what may be the possibilities of Papua in the' distant future we shall be letting the tail wag the dog. It is impossible for every member of the Senate to have an adequateknowledge of the various portions of solarge a territory as is comprised in the Commonwealth with their varying climatesand productions. I look for informationwith regard to a particular industry to those acquainted with the conditions under which it is carried on, and I have beer* impressed by **Senator Chataway's** arguments as to the improbability of this industry being' established with any prospect of success in North Queensland.
*Bounties* [1 8 September, 1907.] *Bill.* 3405
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##### Senator Trenwith:
-- What about the Northern Territory ?
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##### Senator Major O'LOGHLIN:
-- I regard the conditions prevailing in Northern Queensland as analogous to those prevailing in the Northern Territory, and I take the arguments advanced against the probability of success for this industry for Northern Queensland as applying with equal force to the Northern Territory. I am not satisfied by the information we have received that there is a reasonable prospect of success for the copra industry, and I am, therefore, induced to vote against this item.
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##### Senator MULCAHY: Tasmania
-- The argument which appeals to me with greatest force in connexion with this item is the fact that even if we should succeed in establishing this industry we must produce the article for export. We are, therefore, by agreeing to this proposal, committing ourselves not merely to the payment of a bounty at the rate of 15 per cent. on the market value of the article for fifteen years, but to the payment of a bounty perpetually if we wish the industry to be continued. It is clear that with this product we must compete in the markets of the world with the cheap labour of other countries.
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##### Senator Findley:
-- Why should the bounty be perpetual?
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##### Senator MULCAHY:
-- Surely **Senator Findley,** as a protectionist, and as one who desires that, even at the expense of artificial conditions, white men in Australia shall be paid white men's wages, must expect that those engaged in this industry will be paid a much higher rate of wages than is paid to the natives of the South Sea Islands or Ceylon, or to other countries in which the industry is at present carried on.
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##### Senator Trenwith:
-- That is done in the United States, and yet they send horseshoes to the birthplace of the. iron industry.
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##### Senator MULCAHY:
-- I am not dealing with horse-shoes just now. I am speaking of a product which is almost universally cultivated and prepared by coloured labour. We are proposing by the adoption of artificial means to establish the industry in Australia, and what hope can we have for the continuance of the industry, in competition with those engaged in other countries under inferior conditions, unless we continue its support by the artificial means which are considered necessary to induce people to embark in it? If we are to give bounties for the assistance of Australian industries, jet it be for the production of raw ma terials which we use ourselves in large quantities. I miss from this Bounties Bill any mention of a bounty for the production of iron or steel.
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##### Senator Best:
-- The honorable senator may get that yet.
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##### Senator MULCAHY:
-- We are to get that in the sweet by-and-by, and we are now wasting our time in discussing matters that are insignificant, even though the industries sought to be established by this Bill may be established successfully. If we had a sufficient bounty applied to bringing the great iron and steel industry into existence we should immediately afford an opportunity for a vast amount of material that is now lying idle in the earth to be utilized, and should be the means of employing a large amount of labour.
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##### Senator Best:
-- Will the honorable senator assist us when we bring such a proposition forward?
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##### The CHAIRMAN:
-- I ask the honorable senator to confine himself to the subject now before the Chair.
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##### Senator MULCAHY:
-- If we put our hands to the plough in regard to the item under consideration we shall not establish a permanent industry, and unless it is going to be permanent what is the use of our spending the money ? We shall merely set up an industry which will have to be main tained by further bounties as long as it remains in existence.
Question- That the item " Copra " be agreed to - put. The Committee divided.
AYES: 13
NOES: 13
AYES
NOES
Question so resolved in the negative.
Item negatived.
Progress reported. 3406 *Adjournment.* [SENATE.] *Adjournment.*
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page 3406
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### ADJOURNMENT
Alleged Combine in the Confectionery Trade.
Motion (by **Senator Best)** proposed -
That the Senate do now adjourn.
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##### Senator FINDLEY: Victoria
.- I desire to bring under the notice of the Government statements regarding the existence of an alleged Combine in the confectionery trade. If the facts stated by a correspondent in the columns of the *Argus* are correct, there is ample material for the Government to test the efficacy of the Australian Industries Preservation Act. When we were discussing that measure, it was hoped by those of us who supported it that if any attempt were made in Australia to take advantage of the public, or in any way to restrain trade, the Government would be enabled to prevent the occurrence of such evils as have sprung up in America, where monopolies and combines have flourished within recent years. The writer of the letter in the *Argus,* **Mr. Bowman,** calls attention to certain striking facts. He says that almost immediately after the Tariff was placed upon the table of the House of Representatives, the confectioners of Melbourne formed a Combine. In confirmation of that statement I hold in my hand a circular headed " Victorian Manufacturing Confectioners' Association." To it are attached the names of different manufacturing firms in the confectionery line in Victoria. Immediately after the formation of that association, which the writer of the letter in the *Argus* says is a Combine, he states that the prices of various kinds of confectionery were increased, and, further than that, that those traders who are considered to be middlemen, but some of whom are themselves manufacturers, were brought into line, and had to agree to certain conditions. He also states that unless they complied with those conditions, as set forth in the columns of the *Argus* of 31st August, they would not be supplied by local manufacturers. Amongst the conditions applying to the middlemen is the following -
That we will not sell to any firm, person, or persons who may be objected to by the Victorian Manufacturing Confectioners' Association.
What does that mean? It means that if any retailer is objected to by the Victorian Manufacturing Confectioners' Association - that is Victorian Confectionery Combine - that retailer will not be supplied by the manufacturers, and the manufacturers in turn will not allow that retailer to be sup plied by any member of the Retailers' Association. To show the way in which the members of this so-called middlemen's association are bound down, I will quote the thirteenth paragraph of the agreement -
That in the event of any fine or penalty being inflicted by the Victorian Manufacturing Confectioners' Association for any breach of these conditions, or any conditions that may be adopted from time to time, we will satisfy such final penalty within one week of such decision.
Bearing upon this point, it is said that prior to the increase of prices for some articles of confectionery, ' certain retailers became aware that they could obtain similar confectionery from New South Wales at 2d. per lb. cheaper than the price they had to pay in Victoria, and that when arrangements had almost been completed for their orders to be satisfied from New South Wales, the representatives of the Combine in Victoria journeyed to that State, called a meeting of the manufacturers of New South Wales, and entered into an agreement with them that prices there should be raised to the level of the prices being charged in Victoria. The writer of the letters which have been published in the columns of the *Argus* goes on to say that not only have representatives of the Victorian trade gone over to New South Wales, but that they are making trips to other States, with a view of increasing prices. So that, although there will be different businesses carried on in the different States, there will be one Combine to regulate prices, and to fix up the retailers in such a way that the Combine will have the ordinary shopkeepers in. the hollow of their hands.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- And do not forget the inoffensive consumer.
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##### Senator FINDLEY:
-- Of course the consumer's interests should be considered first because without him there would be neither manufacturers nor retailers. **Mr. Bowman,** writing in Saturday's *Argus,* in proof of his statements, mentions that in a previous letter he had made the assertion that there was a Combine, and that **Mr. MacRobertson** and other manufacturers who formed a deputation which waited upon the Minister of Trade and Customs in regard to certain matters in the Tariff affecting the trade, were asked by **Mr. Chapman** whether there was any truth in the rumour that there was a Combine in the confectionery trade. **Mr. MacRobertson** denied the statement, but **Mr. Bowman** writes -
My statement was . followed the day after with a denial by **Mr. MacRobertson** of the exist-
*Adjournment.* [18 September, 1907.] *Adjournment.* 3407 once . of the combine. To this I replied with a document which I think shows the working of the combine, and giving the terms and conditions which middlemen were required to accept, failing which their supplies of locally-made confectionery would be refused. It is surely significant that **Mr. MacRobertson** did not answer this at all.
The writer goes on to say -
>In your issue of the 3rd instant, **Mr. J.** Fentherstone finally took up the matter. Among other things, he stated that "the middlemen had been invited to join forces with the Victorian Manufacturing Confectioners' Association for the better discipline of the confectionery trade." Yes ! " Will you walk into my parlour, said the spider to the fly?" I will to-day repeat the request made in my- letter of 5th instant, for **Mr. Featherstone** finally to name one middleman who joined of his own free will. In the same matter I gave an instance where "boycott" by the Combine was actually a fact. To-day I waited upon this middleman who is also manufacturing, and in answer to the questions 1 put to him, he has given me permission to hand you the enclosed letter.
The letter reads as follows - 12th September, 1907.
**Mr. W.** Bowman.
Dear **Sir, -** In answer to your questions, I am not a member of the Victorian United Confectioners' Association,- commonly spoken of as the Combine. They refused to supply me with any of their goods, and I am given to understand that I 'will not be able to handle their goods until I join.
{: type="A" start="A"}
0. S. Fergusson.
That is to say, unless he joins this association of middlemen, whose rules are rigidly drawn up, and he is not disposed to do it, he will not be supplied with any goods. I mention this incident as further evidence of the growth of combinations in various parts of Australia. If we are to have a repetition of the evils which have resulted from similar combinations in America, the outlook is not a very rosy one from the commercial or consuming point of view. The Bill I mentioned was passed ostensibly for the purpose of cutting away, so to speak, these commercial cancers. If the Act is inoperative in regard to, not only the Confectionery Combine, but also the Tobacco, Shipping, and one or two other Combines which might be mentioned, the sooner the Government admit its inability to grapple with them, because the Act will not permit them to do so, the better it will be for the Senate and the public generally. We will know then on what lines to proceed, and the Government, I hope, will see the necessity of introducing very quickly an amendment of the Act which was intended to deal with these commercial combinations, which are working injuriously from the public point of view.
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##### Senator BEST: Vice-President of the Executive Council · Victoria · Protectionist
. -. My honorable friend will be aware that the Australian Industries Preservation Act has for its object the putting down of monopolies or combines ; but the best Act in the world cannot succeed unless the necessary evidence is furnished to enable a prosecutor to' proceed against any offending parties. ' The experience of the Government Department so far has been that, while there have been many Tumours, with more or less substance, in regard to monopolies and combinations, there is the utmost difficulty in procuring the requisite evidence. The extraordinary part in regard to an alleged monopoly, which will be present to the mind of my honorable friend, is that thosewho are suffering most are the very persons who refuse to give to the Government any help or assistance in the way of furnishing evidence.
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##### Senator Findley:
-- The unfortunate part is that they are " between rise devil and the deep sea."
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##### Senator BEST:
-- There are these practical difficulties standing in the way of a prosecution. In regard to the particular matter to which my honorable friend has referred, I know that it is alleged on the one side that a combination does exist, but that is denied on the other side. If the gentleman who signed the letter which was read, or any other party with whom my honorable friend may be in consultation, will furnish us with the necessary evidence, or enable us by any means to be placed on the track of securing the evidence, we shall be glad.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- At the time it occurred, the Sydney press reported very much of what the honorable . senator has just stated.
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##### Senator BEST:
-- Yes. Of course, it is our duty to proceed if it can. be conclusively shown that an offence against the Act has been committed. I am well aware that many efforts are being made in certain' quarters to evade the provisions of the Act, and it is with very much difficulty that the devices and the ingenuity of some persons have to be combated. If the Act is not so effective as we all hoped it would be, I am quite certain that the Government will not be satisfied with an ineffective law. But I suppose that we cannot be much further forward, no matter what Act we may have, unless we get the evidence. So I would urge upon my honorable friend, if he can see his way to furnish us with any evidence, to do so. 3408 *Petition.* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Petition.*
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##### Senator Findley:
-- The combinations have increased since the passing of the Act, although it was intended tokill them.
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##### Senator BEST:
-- I hardly think that.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- Does not the Minister think that after the statement which has been made it is the duty of the Government' to look for evidence?
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##### Senator BEST:
-- Undoubtedly ; we do look for evidence. But those who are specially interested, and upon whom we thought we might rely for the purpose of furnishing evidence, are the very persons who refuse to do so.
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##### Senator Needham:
-- I understand that the Government have invited them to furnish evidence?
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##### Senator BEST:
-- Of course, we have.
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##### Senator Millen:
-- How can the general public find evidence?
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##### Senator BEST:
-- I am not referring to the general public, but to those who are directly interested and most affected. If I can get any evidence I shall be only too glad to submit it to the Attorney-General's Department, with the view of seeing whether an offence has been committed.
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##### Senator Findley:
-- Let us get an amendment of the Act.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Senate adjourned at10.22 p.m.
Cite as:Australia, Senate, Debates, 18 September 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1907/19070918_senate_3_39/>.