House of Representatives
9 December 1971

27th Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr SPEAKER (Hon. Sir William Aston) took the chair at 10 a.m., and read prayers.

page 4379

PETITIONS

Education

Mr WENTWORTH:
Minister for Social Services · MACKELLAR, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of Australia respectfully sheweth:

That the Australian Education Council’s report on the needs of government education service* has established serious deficiencies in education, the most important areas being a severe shortage of teachers, inadequate accommodation, and, as a result, oversized classes.

That extra Federal finance is urgently required to save (be government school system.

That while the needs of the government schools are being neglected, large amounts of public money is being given, in various and numerous grants, to private schools.

Your petitioners most humbly pray that the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled will take immediate steps to make emergency Federal finance available to the States for State school education, and divert the large sums of public money being spent on private schools, to the government school system for which the government is truly responsible.

And your petitioners, as in duly bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Education

Mr CALDER:
NORTHERN TERRITORY

– 1 present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker ‘and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of Australia respectfully sheweth:

That the Australian Education Council’s report on the needs of governnent education services has established serious deficiencies in education, the most important areas being a severe shortage of teachers, inadequate accommodation, and, as a result, oversized classes.

That extra Federal finance is urgently required to save the government school system.

That while the needs of the government schools are being neglected, large amounts of public money is being given, in various and numerous grants, to private schools.

Your petitioners most humbly pray ;hai the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled will take immediate steps to make emergency Federal finance available to the States for State school education, and divert the large sums of public money being spent on private schools, to the. government school system for which the government is truly responsible. And your petitioners, as in duly bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Aid to Pakistan: Refugees

Mr STEWART:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– 1 present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker jnd. Member; of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of citizens cf the Commonwealth respectfully showeth:

That we, citizens of the Commonwealth, earnestly request our Government to:

increase, immediately, Australia’s contribution to the refugee appeal by 10 million dollars.

press for a just solution to the conflict. so that thi refugees may return to their homes.

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Aid to Pakistani Refugees.

Mr Keith Johnson:
BURKE, VICTORIA · ALP

– 1 present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of citizens of trie Commonwealth respectfully showeth:

That we, citizens of the Commonwealth, earnestly request our Government to: , (1) increase, immediately, Australia’s contribution, to the refugee appeal by 10 million dollars.’’

press for a just solution to the conflict, so that the refugees may return to their homes.

And your, petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Aid to Pakistani Refugees

Mr MARTIN:
BANKS, NEW SOUTH WALES

– 1 present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of citizens of the Commonwealth respectfully showeth:

That we, citizens of the Commonwealth, earnestly request our Government to: II) increase, immediately, Australia’s contribution to the refugee appeal by 10 million dollars.

  1. press for a just solution to the conflict, so that the refugees may return to their homes.

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Aid to Pakistani Refugees

Mr MORRISON:
ST GEORGE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives, in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Commonwealth humbly showeth:

That the immediate prospect for nearly 70 million Bengalis in Bangla Desh and 9 million refugees in the northeast region of India is of mass starvation on- a scale unprecedented in modern history.

Your petitioners most humbly pray that:

The Australian Government immediately provide $1.0,000,000 in direct aid to refugees now in India and commit itself to a continuing aid programme.

And your petitioners, as in duly bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Aid to Pakistani Refugees

Mr COPE:
SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives, in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Commonwealth humbly showeth:

That the immediate prospect for nearly 70 million Bengalis in Bangla Desh and 9 million refugees in the northeast region of India is of mass starvation on a scale unprecedented in modern history.

Your petititioners most humbly pray that:

The Australian Government immediately provide $10,000,000 in direct aid to refugees now in ladia and commit itself to a continuing aid programme.

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Aid to Pakistani Refugees

Mr REID:
HOLT, VICTORIA

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Parliament in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned respectfully showeth.

That as part of the world community, the Austalian Government has an immediate responsibility for concerted action on behalf of those sulfering and left without home or work through their effective expulsion as refugees from East Pakistan.

Your petitioners most humbly pray that the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled should -

Urge that the Australian Government take steps to offer employment at least on a temporary basis, and in order to effect some relief, to academic and qualified persons among the refugees from Bangla Desh.

And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.

Petition received.

Contraceptives

Mr BENNETT:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of citizens of the Commonwealth of Australia respectfully showeth:

That the Sales Tax on alt forms of Contraceptive Devices is 274 per cent. (Sales Tax Exemptions and Classification.-. Act 1935-1967). Also thai there is Customs Duty of up to 471 per cent on some Contraceptive Devices.

And that this is an unfair imposition on the human rights of all people who wish to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And furthermore that this imposition discriminates particularly against people on low incomes.

Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that the Sales Tax on all forms of Contraceptive Devices be removed, so as to bring these items into line with other necessities such as food, upon which there is no Sales Tax. Also that Customs Duties be removed, and that all Contraceptive Devices be placed on the National Health Scheme Pharmaceutical Benefits List.

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Lake Pedder

Mr BRYANT:
WILLS, VICTORIA

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of the Commonwealth of Australia respectfully showeth:

That Lake Pedder, situated in the Lake Pedder National Park in South-West Tasmania, is threatened with inundation as part of the Gordon River hydro-electric power .meme

That an alternative scheme exists, which, if implemented would avoid inundation of this lake.

That Lake Pedder and the surrounding wilderness area are of such beauty and scientific interest as to be of a value beyond monetary consideration.

And that some unique species of flora and fauna will be in danger of extinction if this area is inundated.

Your petitioners therefore. humbly pray that the Federal Government take immediate steps to act on behalf of all Australian people to preserve Lake Pedder in its na ural state. All present and particularly future Australians will benefit by being able to escape from their usual environment to rebuild their physical and menial strength in this unspoilt wilderness area. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received and read.

Aid to Pakistani Refugees

Mr LLOYD:
MURRAY, VICTORIA

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable ;he Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of certain citizens of Australia respectfully showeth:

That the suffering of the Pakistani refugees is such as to warrant immediate relief.

That the amount of aid allocated for Pakistani refugee relief does not befit Australia’s standing in the world as a developed nation.

That the s:ate of tension between the Indian and Pakistani Governments is such as to threaten war.

Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that the Government will

immediately increase aid, monetary or otherwise, for Pakistani refugee relief to the value of $10 million,

grant as aid, on a continuing basis, a percentage of the gross national product, and

use every diplomatic channel possible to ease tension between the Indian and Pakistani Governments.

And your petitioners as, in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received.

Perth Airport

Mr BENNETT:

– I present the following petition:

To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of the undersigned residents of the State of Western Australia respectfully showeth:

That the present site of the Perth Airport is unsuitable because of:

the morning fogs.

its proximity to the Darling Ranges

its. lack of planning, prior to construction.

the loss to the local authority in rates and loss to the community in acreage of development area and assets.

the restriction placed on the development of surrounding shires due to existing flight paths and proposed flight paths; and

the adjacent areas to the airport are suffering loss of value due to their unsuitability for high density development.

Your petitioners .therefore humbly pray that action be taken to remove Perth airport from its presen. site to the site planned by Professor Stephenson’s overall plan for the city of Perth, that is at Lake Gnangarra.

And your petitioners, ab in duty bound, will ever pray.

Petition received and read.

page 4381

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr ENDERBY:
Australian Capital Territory

– I give notice of my intention at the next sitting to present a Bill for an Act to amend the Broadcasting and Television Act 1942-1971 to prevent a licensee broadcasting or televising any advertisement promoting the sale or consumption of cigarettes.

I also give notice of my intention at the next sitting to present a Bill for an Act to amend the Post and Telegraph Act 1901- 1971 to prevent the sending by PO.t of any postal article which promotes the sale or consumption of cigarettes.

page 4381

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN HIGH COMMISSION IN THE UNITED KINGDOM

Mr CROSS:
BRISBANE. QLD

– Can the Prime Minister explain why it took until 18th November to approve increased salaries for locally engaged staff of the Australian High Commission in the United Kingdom when the comparable increases for the British Civil Service took effect from 1st January 1971? Does the Prime Minister realise’ the dissatisfaction that this long delay has caused among the staff of the High Commission? Will he undertake to review the procedures in order that delays of this length may not occur in the future?

Mr McMAHON:
Prime Minister · LOWE, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP

– I will have a look at the question raised by the honourable gentleman as soon as I can.

page 4381

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN FILM ‘STOCKADE

Mr ERWIN:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

– 1 direct my question to the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Ails. A film entitied Stockade’ was recently produced in Australia. Did the Australian Film Development Corporation and the Australian Council for the Arts each provide subsidies for this film? Did these Government bodies supervise or have any knowledge of the contents of this film before or. during its production? What steps, if any, can the

Government now adopt to remove this film from circulation because of its immoral content?

Mr HOWSON:
Minister for Environment, Aborigines and the Arts · CASEY, VICTORIA · LP

– The Australian Film Development Corporation and the Australian Council for the Arts did provide some funds to help in the production of the film ‘Stockade’, which was intended to portray a memorable episode in Australia’s history. I have not seen the film. I was unable to be at its premiere in Ballarat last Friday. The honourable member for Ballarat and his wife, who is a prominent member of the Council for the Arts and who knows some of the background to this matter, attended that premiere. I am disturbed to hear the matters raised by the honourable member. I do know that the film has been given a ‘M’ rating by the censor which means that children if accompanied by their parents will be able to see it. In view of the matters raised by the honourable member, I certainly will convey his comments to the Chairman of the Australian Council for the Arts and the Chairman of the Australian Film Development Corporation. As soon as I receive a report from them, I shall convey it to the honourable member.

page 4382

QUESTION

RETRAINING OF WORKERS

Mr McIVOR:
GELLIBRAND, VICTORIA

– My question is directed to the Minister for Labour and National Service. Is the Minister aware of the action of the European Economic Community in relation to the retraining of workers–

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! There is far too much audible conversation in the chamber. I have had to appeal to the House on 3 occasions this morning on this matter. If this continues in future. I will request honourable members individually to cease these loud conversations. Complaints have come from my right that Ministers are unable to hear questions asked by honourable members. This has occurred on 2 occasions this week. I think that it is a reflection on the conduct of honourable members in this House. I would suggest to honourable members that, if they must speak, they should speak in soft tones. I ask the honourable member for Gellibrand to repeat bis question.

Mr McIVOR:

– Is the Minister for Labour and National Service aware of the action of the European Economic Commun ity in relation to the retraining of workers whose jobs have or may become redundant as a result of continuing integration in the Community or because of- the age group into which the workers fall? In view of the fact that workers in the age group from 45 years onward find it most difficult to obtain employment in this country, will the Minister give consideration to introducing a similar scheme to overcome redundancy occurring at all levels in Australia?

Mr LYNCH:
Minister for Labour and National Service · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · LP

– 1 have a general appreciation of the retraining programmes which are offered by a number of countries in the European Economic Community. In particular, I have knowledge of the precise area of training to which the honourable gentleman refers. The honourable gentleman would be aware of the number of training programmes which are offered through my Department and, in particular, the retraining programme for persons dispossessed of . jobs as a direct result of . the effects pf technological change. The honourable gentleman asks me whether I will give consideration to the possibility of a scheme for retraining workers who find difficulty in continuing in. employment because of age. I will certainly look at this matter. However, the honourable gentleman will be aware that this is a policy matter and that, therefore, I cannot give a precise answer. 1 will look into the matter and bring it to the attention of my Department.

page 4382

QUESTION

CIGARETTE SMOKING

Mr FOX:
HENTY, VICTORIA

– I ask the Treasurer: ls he aware that there is a strong body of medical opinion which suggests that there is a relationship between cigarette smoking and the incidence of lung cancer and heart disease, the major cause of these diseases being considered to be the tar content of cigarettes? In an endeavour to persuade manufacturers to produce cigarettes with a lower tar content, will the Treasurer consider providing a sliding scale of excise duties so that those brands which have the lowest tar content will attract the lowest rates of duty? If the answer is in the affirmative, will he take into consideration both the gain to revenue from excise duty on cigarettes and the cost to the taxpayer of providing medical treatment and hospialisation for sufferers from heart disease and lung cancer?

Mr SNEDDEN:
Treasurer · BRUCE, VICTORIA · LP

– Like everybody else,I am concerned about the prevalence of lung cancer and heart disease, but whether those diseases are directly caused by cigarette smoking I do not know. So farI have not seen any conclusive evidence to that effect and, as I understand the position, there is still argument on the question. The balance of opinion seems to be that there isa direct causal connection. If this is so I would think it is more a matter for the Department of Health. I do not favour the use of revenue procedures to encourage or discourage something which relates directly to the health of the community. However, I will give close attention to the honourable gentleman’s question to see whether the course he suggests is practicable.

page 4383

QUESTION

OFF-SHORE PETROLEUM RESOURCES

Mr WHITLAM:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– My question is directed to the Minister for National Development. I am spurred by the tabling of the momentous report of the Senate Select Committee on Off-Shore Petroleum Resources to ask when the Parliament and the public will at last be given access to the report on forward national development planning covering not only minerals but also forests, water and energy, which the. Minister’s Department completed as far back as October last year.

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · LP

– I am delighted that the Leader of the Opposition has given me the opportunity to refer to a matter which is of great importance. I am pleased to see his rather new found interest in this matter. I acknowledge the fact that my Department and I spent a considerable amount of time last year preparing the basis of a document for consideration by the Government in relation to the development of our natural resources. In its early stages this document became public knowledge although at that stage it was nota public document. The matter has been before Cabinet for some considerable time and has gone through the early stages of its first consideration by Cabinet. Naturally the consideration of development on this scale, affecting as it does policy matters involving quite a number of departments, is a long and complicated process. Many of the matters which were raised when the subject was first being considered have now been dealt with and public announcements have been made. However, there are still quite a number of matters in the original document that have yet to be considered. The position at the present time is that an interdepartmental committee is considering a number of them. When it has finally considered these points and make recommendations to me, the matter will again be considered by the Government. But I. do appreciate, as I say, the new found interest of the Opposition in this very important matter.

page 4383

QUESTION

EGG PRODUCTION

Mr HALLETT:
CANNING, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– My question is directed to the Minister for Primary Industry. Is it a fact that egg producers throughout Australia have requested that legislation be introduced to control production? It is also a fact that the Victorian Government has refused to accept the recommendations of the producers? Can the Minister advise the House of the present position and can he also say. when the State representatives will be called together with the object of resolving the position?

Mr SINCLAIR:
Minister for Primary Industry · NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– The answer to the first 2 parts of the honourable member’s question is yes. The answer to the third part is that State Government Ministers other than the Victorian Minister have asked that an early meeting of the Australian Agricultural Council be convened to consider possible ways in which restraint on egg production can be imposed within the States. However, the Victorian Government believes that at this stage the matter is not one on which it is prepared to take legislative action in any way, and consequently has asked that the meeting be deferred until the normal time for the next meeting which is February 1972. The matter is listed for discussion then and I hope that growers in Victoria and elsewhere in Australia will take note of the difficulties which face all sections of the industry and bring pressure to bear on the Victorian Government so that at the time of the meeting of the Agricultural Council adequate consideration can be given to some way of restraining excess production. There is no doubt that of all the primary industries, there are few in a more critical financial plight than the egg producing sector of the poultry industry. It is regrettable that there is no’ way in which the Commonwealth Government can take action in an area where the particular responsibility is within the sovereign control of the States. i: INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS ‘ Mr BEAZLEY- I address a question to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I ask the Minister whether consideration has been given to suggesting the calling of either a Commonwealth Prime Ministers conference or a Commonwealth Foreign Ministers conference, perhaps in Ottawa in view of the acceptability of Pierre Trudeau to both sides, to offer mediation in the war between India and Pakistan. ::i Mr N. H. BOWEN- There has been some discussion of Commonwealth initiative and Mr Arnold Smith in London has been communicating with Commonwealth [ countries. The difficulty here is that it is the general assessment of most of the leading Commonwealth countries that any approach of that type at the present time would be less than effective. This would be largely a matter of judgment. It has not been overlooked. I can assure the honourable member that it is currently under discussion but none of the Commonwealth countries wants simply to do something which is a mere gesture and would be entirely abortive. They are therefore closely studying the matter.

page 4384

QUESTION

JAPANESE SCHOOL IN SYDNEY

Mr MacKELLAR:
WARRINGAH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– My question is directed to the Minister for Education and Science. I refer him to an allegation contained in a letter to a newspaper this morning that the Federal Government is providing state aid for a school in Sydney owned and operated by Japanese nationals. I ask the Minister: Is there any truth in this allegation?

Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– There is no truth whatsoever in the allegation. My predecessor made the decision that this particular school was not a school which should attract Commonwealth support. The Commonwealth does not provide per capita grants to this school. It provides no capital assistance to this school. It does not provide assistance to this school and this sort of information is perhaps typical of the propaganda that is sometimes used in this direction.

page 4384

QUESTION

ABORIGINES

Mr HURFORD:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I direct a question to the Prime Minister. At this time, when we newer Australians are’ about to enjoy one of our traditions, namely the Christmas holidays, has the Government at last some good news for those older Australians, our Aboriginal people, particularly concerning their modest land rights claims?

Mr MCMAHON:
LP

– Both’ Cabinet and a Cabinet committee have been looking at the problem of land rights for Australian Aborigines. We had a meeting about it on Monday. Two or three matters, mainly of a’ technical nature, were left outstanding, but in general we came to conclusions. 1 had hoped to be able lo make a statement about this matter in the House today. I regret that I will bc unable to do so; 1 will have to wait until 1 can get a report from an interdepartmental committee. As soon as that has been done 1 will be able to make a report on it. I am sorry that I am not able to make it in the House.

page 4384

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION

Mr KELLY:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– The Postmaster-General will be aware of the excellent reputation of the Australian Broadcasting Commission’s television programme ‘Monday Conference’ which is compered by Robert Moore. The reputation of this programme was enhanced again last Monday night, ls the Minister aware that another excellent edition of the same programme last week featured Professor Ogg, an eminent American agricultural economist? Will the Minister circulate to honourable members the text of this interview and also the text of Professor Ogg’s talk on the ‘Guest of Honour’ radio programme last Sunday night so that we may have the benefit of his considerable experience?

Sir ALAN HULME:
Postmaster-General · PETRIE, QUEENSLAND · LP

– I am, of course, aware that a programme, ‘Monday Conference’, is televised by the Australian Broadcasting Commission on most Monday evenings. 1 did not see the programme which featured Professor Ogg. I think there would be no difficulty in arranging with the ABC for the scripts of both the programmes mentioned by the honourable member to be made available to honourable members.

page 4385

QUESTION

ARMY PERSONNEL IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN

Mr BARNARD:
BASS, TASMANIA

– I ask the Minister for the Army: Are any members of the Army attending staff college or other courses in India and Pakistan? If so. what instructions have been given to them in relation to the present conflict between these nations?

Mr PEACOCK:
Minister for the Army · KOOYONG, VICTORIA · LP

– The very short answer is that there are officers attending staff colleges at both Quetta and Wellington. They are going about their normal business and 1 understand they are in liaison with officials from the Foreign Affairs Department.

page 4385

QUESTION

OIL REFINING

Mr CALDER:

– Can the Minister for National Development advise what developments have occurred concerning the study of the possibility of using Mereenie crude oil through a refinery- in Alice Springs?

Mr SWARTZ:
LP

– The position at the present time in the Palm Valley-Mereenie area is that the exploration and proving work is continuing. It will take some considerable time to prove the reserves of gas and liquid crude there. In the meantime some discussions have been held and are still continuing between officers of my Department and the companies concerned. The situation is a fairly, complex one because it involves not . only the actual development of the Held itself but also the situation whereby certain areas are allocated . to different marketers in relation to the subsidy provided by the Commonwealth. So careful consideration has to be given to the allocation of certain areas. But the negotiations in relation to the possible development of a small refinery in Alice Springs are continuing. 1. expect that it will be some little time before they will be finalised and it will also be some little time before the extent of the reserves at Mereenie are finally proven. However, as soon as more definite information is available. I will make sure that the honourable member has it immediately.

page 4385

QUESTION

TAXATION: NORFOLK ISLAND COMPANIES

Mr ARMITAGE:
CHIFLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I preface my question to the Treasurer with a reference to a report of proceedings in the Bankruptcy Court earlier this year revealing that Australian residents used a sham company set up in Norfolk Island to avoid taxation, and also to my quests of 11th March last year to his predecessor suggesting that taxation was being avoided in this . way, with which his predecessor agreed.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I .suggest that the honourable member ask his question.

Mr ARMITAGE:

– 4 ask the Minister: What is the position regarding the inquiries into this matter which his predecessor stated on 11th March last year were being carried out?

Mr SNEDDEN:
LP

– The honourable gentleman has every right to be concerned about this matter. I am also concerned about it. There is a difficulty involved here in that the Norfolk Island administration and the Norfolk Island people feel very strongly that companies should set up there because this provides considerable revenue for Norfolk Island. My colleague, the Minister for External Territories, naturally enough is concerned for the interests of the people of Norfolk Island. For my part I am very concerned that Norfolk Island, which already shows promise of becoming a very considerable tax haven, should not be allowed to develop in that way, for if it does it will only enrich some companies and add a considerable burden to the taxpayers of Australia. The consequence is that I have had a thorough investigation of this matter made by the Taxation Office and Treasury officers. As a consequence I have a paper of considerable size, containing very many pages, which has been submitted to a committee of Ministers who deal with tax matters. Unfortunately it has not been possible, to consider the report of the investigation within the last week or two, but that committee will be called together as soon as possible, for the purpose of reaching conclusions about it so that it can be recommended for the consideration of the Government.

page 4385

QUESTION

REQUEST FOR PREMIERS CONFERENCE

Mr LUCHETTI:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Prime Minister: Has he yet considered the request of the State Premiers for a special Premiers Conference to discuss the depressed condition of the Australian economy and in particular the problems of unemployment, the rural crisis and the cost-price inflation? As a majority of Australian States have indicated their approval of such a meeting, will the right honourable gentleman say when the conference is to be, held and whether the Federal Government will place on the agenda firm proposals for the control of prices? Finally, will the Prime Minister see to it that excessive profit making is listed for discussion so that action may be agreed upon to deal with profiteering, which results in increased costs for goods and services?

Mr McMAHON:
LP

– I have just received a report from the relevant department relating to a . meeting with the Premiers. Yesterday was a very full day, and while J gave the report preliminary consideration I did not entirely agree with the method of presentation. 1 will have a further look at it today.

page 4386

QUESTION

ARMY: TASMANIA COMMAND

Dr SOLOMON:
DENISON, TASMANIA

– My question is addressed to the Minister for Defence. In view of a reported request by the Tasmanian Premier for upgrading the. status of .Tasmania Command and the restoration of the traditional 40th Infantry Battalion in Hobart and the 12th Infantry Battalion in Launceston, can the Minister indicate what progress has been made in this matter?

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Minister for Defence · FARRER, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP

– I. am sure that the honourable gentleman would realise that this- is a matter of policy. I can assure him that it is a matter which is under consideration at the present moment, as we are looking at some possible alterations in the structure of the Army. When a decision is matte it will be conveyed through the normal channels from the Prime Minister to the Premier.

page 4386

QUESTION

OVERSEAS INVESTMENT IN AUSTRALIA

Mr WHITTORN:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

– J address my question to the Treasurer. In view of the Treasurer’s contribution to the debate on the motion of no confidence last week when he said that the bulk of capital inflow this year was for loans to commercial enterprises in Australia I now ask whether Australian companies, either locally owned or substantially owned overseas, have been borrowing overseas in recent years simply because interest rates in Australia are too high?

Mr SNEDDEN:
LP

– I do. .not think it is .’ simply because of high interest rates in Australia. In reality interest rates in Aust tralia fit about in the middle of the interest rate spectrum of all countries in. the world. Very considerable differences in interest rates are found in other countries between the short-term market and the long-term market. There is a very much bigger difference between the low and high rates in other countries than there ls in Australia where interest rates tend to ‘be in a closer band. But the’ level of interest rates may well have been one of the” factors. For instance the interest rate in /Switzerland is quite low although access to that market is not easy. But inquiries.’ .1 have made show’ that’ it is difficult to obtain money from overseas at a more advantageous interest rate than it can be obtained in Australia. The reason for the. borrowings overseas nas’ been that there has been a . . greater demand for finance for development projects than we generate ourselves in Australia. The reason : for that is, of course, our rapid rate of growth. I think one of the major, reasons for the increase in borrowings was that there has developed over the last 2 or 3 years a , very marked improvement in the sophistication of the merchant banking area which has been able to make contacts with, overseas sources of capital, put the capital together and make it available to projects in Australia which, prior to that event, just did not have the expertise to use or the entrance into those overseas capital markets. They have now managed to achieve that and that is one of the major reasons for the inflow.

page 4386

QUESTION

TAXATION: NEW HEBRIDES COMPANIES

Mr WHITLAM:

– I ask the Treasurer a . question supplementary to that asked of him by the honourable member for Chiefley about the Norfolk Island tax haven. I ask (he honourable gentleman: Has he sought, and if so has he yet studied a report from his taxation advisers on the New Hebrides tax haven? I ask him whether the committee of Ministers concerned with taxation matters has considered the New Hebrides tax haven. Finally I ask whether, since the New Hebrides is an Anglo-French condominium, he has asked the Prime Minister, who is still the means of communication with the British Government, or the Foreign Minister, who is the means of communication with the French Government, to study this aspect.

Mr SNEDDEN:
LP

– I do not know to which report the honourable gentleman refers in particular. I have seen a number of papers from the Taxation Office in general on tax minimisation including that element which is tax minimisation arising out of the use of havens outside Australian territory. It is a matter which conerns me and indeed it concerns every country in the world, whether the haven is a total haven or half haven or whatever it is. It is not an easy problem to cure, but it is one of which the taxation officers are very well aware and so am 1. 1 have decided that we ought first to approach that area upon which we have undoubted legislative power, and that is in relation to our own Territories. Hence the priority of Norfolk Island remains higher.

Mr Whitlam:

– There has been no approach to Britain or France?

Mr SNEDDEN:

– There has ‘riot been any approach to Britain or France of which I am aware. There may have been an approach at an officer level of which I am not aware.

I would like to take the opportunity of saying that that part of the Treasury con- . cerned with tax policy and the Taxation Office are staffed by experts of the highest quality but unfortunately there are not enough of these people who have the expertise to handle all the problems that come up at the same time.

Later today I will be introducing some legislation which will move to cure 2 areas of tax minimisation - that is the wrong use df public companies or what purport to be public companies and dividend stripping. When one considers the amount of work that has to be put into the preparation of such measures by expert officers in the Taxation Office and the Treasury and Parliamentary Counsel, I am sure that the honourable gentleman will understand the degree of difficulty we have in these mat ters. We now have another programme of action which will follow on to other areas. When work on the Norfolk Island situation is finished I will look at the other matter.

page 4387

QUESTION

BEEF ROADS

Mr KATTER:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

– I direct my question to “ the Minister for National Development. Could the Minister indicate whether the ‘ beef roads programme of the Federal Government, which has been of such immense value to much of the inland of Australia, will be extended when the current programme has concluded? Would the Minister agree that it is most desirable that if the programme is to continue preliminary planning should commence at the earliest possible date?

Mr SWARTZ:
LP

– The honourable member’s interest in this matter is made evident not only by his question today but also by the fact that he has written to me recently on a couple of occasions. 1 can assure honourable members that I agree with him that this is a very important matter. The beef roads programme has provided a very good service in many areas in the northern parts of Australia. The negotiations in relation to this are handled by the Northern Division of my Department.

The present programme continues under the existing plan up to 1974. At this point of time I cannot give an assurance in regard to a further plan. But I can give the assurance that some planning is being done in consultation with the States and the industries concerned. A lot of work is being done to see what further programmes would be required to service this industry. Of course, as the honourable member knows, subsidiary benefits spill over into other industries such as tourism and the programme provides a service to the community generally. We are well aware of the honourable member’s interest in the matter. I can assure him that the point he has raised will be given full consideration.

page 4387

QUESTION

NEWCASTLE STATE DOCKYARD

Mr CHARLES JONES:
NEWCASTLE, VICTORIA

– I direct my question to the Prime Minister. Have 21 years elapsed since the Tariff Board commenced its inquiry into the shipbuilding industry and has its report been in the hands of the Government since 12th July this year? Has a Cabinet sub-committee been considering the location of a new graving dock for over 12 months? Has the Newcastle State Dockyard submitted a plan for the construction of a new graving dock capable of docking and repairing large bulk carriers and tankers operating on the coast? Further, I ask whether the right honourable gentleman has any information as to what progress has been made with these reports and when a decision can be expected. Finally,I ask how much longer is the Government going to sit on the reports.

Mr McMahon:

– I would ask the Minis ter for Trade and Industry to answer the honourable member’s question.

Mr ANTHONY:
Deputy Prime Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

-I was asked a similar question some weeks ago andI said in reply that the Tariff Board report had been received. I pointed out that this was a very complex report and that it was being given close Government examination. Further I said that the examination was being carried out by an interdepartmental committee and that we hoped to be able to hand down a decision as soon as possible. I am fully conscious of the difficulties that the delay is causing the shipbuilding industry. I am fully aware of the uncertainty that prevails at the moment as to the industry’s future. Igive an assurance that we will deal with the report as expeditiously as possible. I would hope that a decision might be made early in the New Year.

page 4388

QUESTION

TAXATION OFFICE STAFF

Mr HUGHES:
BEROWRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– My question is directed to the Treasurer. In view of the indication contained in his answer a few minutes ago to the Leader of the Opposition that the staff resources of the Taxation Office are not sufficient to cope with the great demands upon them to investigate and endeavour to plug up loopholes in relation to tax avoidance, will the Treasurer reconsider a suggestion I made not very long ago to the effect that the time might be appropriate to appoint another specialist committee like the Ligertwood Committee, which sat in 1960 and 1961, to supplement the activities of the Taxation Office in relation to tax avoidance?

Mr SNEDDEN:
LP

– I have been giving consideration to this matter. The elements involved are what sort of issues should be looked at by such a committee and, if a committee were appointed, to what degree must it be serviced by, the very same officers who are doing the work themselves and to what extent, therefore, would it detract from the work performance of those officers. Unfortunately, like parliamentary counsel, these experienced officers cannot just be created. They are of a special type, being a combination of intellect and character. The other thing which these officers are involved in at present, and this is by chance, is the negotiation of a series of double tax agreements. For a number of years we did not have them, but we are now in the course of vigorously achieving them. We have a list of countries in order of priority, so to speak, and the same sort of officers are used in that pursuit. I will continue an examination to see whether they can be helped by an outside committee without detracting from their work performance.

page 4388

QUESTION

WAGES

Mr FOSTER:
STURT, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Is the Prime Minister aware that the take-home pay of the minimum wage earners in Australia with dependent wives and children is less than 5 per cent of the present total weekly wage of the Prime Minister? Does he consider the differential to be justified? Will his Government undertake to restore wage values to such workers to enable them to live above the poverty line?

Mr McMAHON:
LP

– It would have been preferable had this question been directed to my colleague, the Minister for Labour and National Service. As the honourable gentleman will know, or should know, we have in this country an Arbitration Commission which has the function of determining minimum and award wages. Negotiations also take place outside the Commission which involve what is called the wage group, which also encompass a very large section of wage increases. To determine such matters for the Commonwealth Civil Service, there is the Public Service Arbitrator. These avenues are all open to the unions so that they can represent the best interests of the working man. But I think the honourable gentleman, having the interests of the lower paid workers at heart, would know that these days, with the great power of the big unions, particularly unions like the Amalgamated Engineering Union -

Mr FOSTER:

– They are not the lowest paid workers. I was talking about lowest paid workers.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! The honourable member has been here long enough to know that he should not interject after he has asked his question.

Mr McMAHON:

– It is known that since Mr Albert Monk ceased to be President of the Australian Council of Trade Unions the emphasis has shifted away from that body assisting the lower paid worker to its backing to the limit of its capacity the strength of the bigger unions, and it is the bigger unions which are getting the rewards.If the honourable member is genuine in his wish to help the lower paid workers he should try to influence the ACTUto change its policy in the interests of greater wage justice.

page 4389

QUESTION

CIVIL AVIATION

Mr DONALD CAMERON:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND · LP

– Is the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation aware that the New Zealand Government has now granted landing rights to American charier companies wishing to take thousands of tourists to New Zealand? Is it correct that until now New Zealand stood firmly with Australia in opposition to charter carriers? Does the fact that New Zealand is going it alone cast dark shadows across the wisdom of our present day policy? Finally, is it correct that thousands of American tourists have been refused permissionto land in Australia in 1972 and that the tours for 1973 will be cancelled at the end of next January if permission is not granted? Can Australia continue to be the ostrich of the Pacific?

Mr SWARTZ:
LP

– I do not think it is quite correct to express the position as the honourable member did and to say the Australia and New Zealand had been standing out against overseas charter operators coming to Australia and New Zealand. Of course, there has been a considerable amount of charter operations, both by our own international carrier and by other international carriers. But Australia has adhered very firmly in her own interests and in the interests of international aviation to the conditions of the International Air Transport Association. However, as honourable members know, there has been some change in Australia in relation to a subsidiary company being set up under Qantas Airways. Ltd specifically for charter operations, In addition, I know what my colleague in another place is giving consideration to the position of the entry of additional charter flights to Australia by other international operators. However, I am not completely in the picture as to the present position, so I will draw the attention of my colleague in another place the question that has been asked and see that a suitable answer is furnished.

page 4389

QUESTION

HOUSING

Mr UREN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

-I direct my questionto the Prime Minister. He may recall my question to him on 13th September in which I sought a reduction in interest rates in the home building sector of the building industry in order to stimulate that section of the industry. In reply the Prime Minister indicated that he would keep a close watch on this section of the industry. Is he aware that there had been a 6.6 per cent decrease in the number of commencements of the houses and flats in the September quarter compared with the corresponding quarter in1 969 - 2 years ago - and that since that time 350,000 migrants have come to Australia and there have been over 220,000 marriages in Australia? Will the Prime Minister direct the Reserve Bank of Australia to reduce the interest rates applying in the home building sector in order to stimulate that sector of the industry and to assist young people and migrants to acquire homes?

Mr McMAHON:
LP

– I am not certain of the figures that have just been given by the honourable gentleman, but on this question I can say that if he looks at the figures relating to residentials, which include homes and flats, and makes’ a comparison with the same periods last year he will see that there has been a substantial increase in the number of commencements. As I have already assured him, I keep a very close personal watch on the total position in the housing industry. I believe that the industry is going along fairly well -

Mr Uren:

– <What about, the October figures? They are down.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I have already warned the honourable members - for Reid. He has asked a rather long question about which I think the Chair was lenient!, and now he is interjecting. I suggest that he should conform with the forms of the House.

Mr McMAHON:

– By the way, the honourable member for Reid referred to the corresponding quarter 2 years ago.

Mr Uren:

– Yes, but there is decline.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I again warn the honourable ‘ member for Reid. If he persists in ignoring my request I shall name him on the next occasion.

Mr McMAHON:

– If the honourable gentleman wants to obtain the figures relating to this industry and to see the way in which we are keeping a cautious watch on them, he should look at the speeches made in this House when a no confidence motion was moved and decisively beaten.

page 4390

QUESTION

ELECTORAL

Mr TURNBULL:
MALLEE, VICTORIA

– My question is addressed to the Minister for the Interior, who administers the Electoral Act. With a view to giving non-metropolitan Australia an opportunity to develop, will the Minister, when the next redistribution of Federal electorates is being made, endeavour to have the permissible 20 per cent over and 20 per cent under the quota fully implemented in favour of rural areas? The Minister will realise that this is provided for in the Electoral Act. In other words, will he endeavour to have decentralisation of political representation adopted?

Mr HUNT:
Minister for the Interior · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · CP

– I am well aware of the views of the honourable member on this question of decentralisation and of his adherence to the belief that, in order to achieve decentralisation, decentralisation of administration is essential. Over the years, the Government has taken into consideration the need to try to get a balance between representation for rural constituents and representation for metropolitan constituents. The Act has been framed in such a way as to ensure that people living in rural areas can be adequately represented. We have some very large electorates, like the electorate of Kalgoorlie, which covers an enormous area. Of course, the people in such . areas are not able to see their member as frequently as constituetents in the electorate of Grayndler can. So, we do have a very necessary tolerance to try to ensure that adequate provision is made for people living in the rural sector. I can assure the honourable member that we will observe the provisions of the Electoral Act should there be, and when there is, a redistribution.

page 4390

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I will give the call first to the honourable gentleman who has conformed to the requirements of the Standing Orders in relation to personal explanations and who has informed the Chair earlier of his intention. 1 call the honourable member for Oxley.

Mr HAYDEN:
Oxley

– I wish to make a personal explanation. With some humility I confess to the House that I misrepresented Conzinc Riotinto of Australia Ltd. I have received a letter from Mr Lewis, the Manager-Public Relations of Conzinc Riotinto in which he refers to a speech that I made in the House on 2nd December 1971. He draws my attention to the fact that in that speech 1 said that 84 per cent of the shares of Conzinc Riotinto of Australia Limited were held by the United Kingdom parent company, the RioTinto-Zinc Corporation Ltd. He points out that the figure now is 80.65 per cent with respect to shares held by the parent company. I am sure that all Australians will heave a sigh of ‘gratitude’ at this ‘magnificent’ gesture to local equity which has been displayed by Conzinc Riotinto of Australia Ltd.

Mr BRYANT:
Wills

– I wish to make a personal explanation.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Does the honourable member claim to have been misrepresented?

Mr BRYANT:

– No. This question arises under standing order 64 which provides that a member may explain matters of a personal nature. I refer to a matter which arose in the House. During the course of question time, the honourable member for Wakefield (Mr Kelly) asked for the distribution of certain material from the Australian Broadcasting Commission. I interjected because, as a member of the Library Committee, I was concerned that the Library’s functions were’ misunderstood. The Library circulates or has available the transcripts to which the honourable member referred in relation to the programmes Monday Conference’ and ‘Guest of Honour’. Indeed, the transcript of ‘Monday Conference’ is circulated to honourable members. 1 am deeply grieved that honourable members have not noticed this fact. I apologise to you, Mr Speaker, for having breached the Standing Orders on this occasion, but I was provoked.

page 4391

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

Dr PATTERSON:
Dawson

– I move:

All members of Parliament who represent rural and semi-rural electorates, as well as some of those representing city electorates, are well aware of the attitude of the PostmasterGeneral (Sir Alan Hulme) and his Department to the very serious problems caused by the wholesale closing of country post offices throughout Australia. The Opposition believes that the Federal Parliament must act to curb the dictatorial powers exercised by the PostmasterGeneral and his Department in their decisions to close down these country post offices. There is an urgent need to establish a select committee of the Parliament to inquire into these matters which are, of course, of great concern to all members of the Australian Labor Party representing rural electorates, as they are to all members of the Country Party and the Liberal Party, although I would assume that the last 2 mentioned parties will do very little about it. Because of the . PostmasterGeneral’s dictatorial attitude, the Federal Government now is being depicted in country areas as a government which has little sympathy for the needs of country people.

Country post offices are an integral part of the welfare of all rural areas; they have provided essential services to rural communities for almost as long as those communities have existed. In the last 3 years the Government, through the PostmasterGenera], has closed down 700 .post offices throughout Australia and. the great majority of these were in rural electorates. And while this happens the Government seems to turn a blind eye to the powers of the Postmaster-General’s Department. The disturbing feature of these closures is that in all cases there are no real reasons for them and no warnings are given to the people concerned. They have little chance of appealing to the Postmaster-General and their Federal member to take this matter

Up wilh the Department. Usually notification is given and protests are made, but by then it is too late.

In addition, another decision has caused serious problems with respect to the compulsory transfer of staff from country areas to the provincial cities, a move which is contrary to the principles of decentralisation. This re-organisation is, in effect, in pursuance of a policy of centralisation in capital and provincial cities. And this is another reason why there is a need for a committee of inquiry. No committee of inquiry has been established to investigate the operations of the Post Office for more than 50 years and a competent independent investigation by the Parliament of the entire .structure of the Post Office is badly needed.

The Opposition has another reason for moving this motion. There are mounting delays in rural areas in the provision of telephone services. There was an announcement made in this Parliament some time ago concerning an acceleration in the provision of telephone facilities to country people within a certain radius of the exchanges. But all we have had are mounting delays. Divisional engineers throughout Australia will tell us that the provisionof these facilities is at the bottom ofthepriority list becauseapparentlythere are not sufficient funds available. In my electorate, a typical country electorate, the delay in the provision of multi-coin facilities which are essential for people in rural areas wishing to make trunk-line calls is at least 12 months. And if the PostmasterGeneral does not believe me, I can give him details of the applications which have been made by people in my electorate and who have been told that there is at least a 7-month delay in the provision of even multi-coin facilities. This is proof of a deterioration in the operational conditions in the Post Office. There is a need for an investigation. The Postmaster-General has informed the Government and the public that he will retire shortly and I believe in all sincerity that he should intervene in this matter before then. If he does not it will seem that he has lost interest in the welfare of the Australian people. I believe he should resign.

Mr Jeff Bate:

– I rise to order. Mr Speaker, may I draw your attention to General Business, notice No. 9. I think the honourable member for Dawson is speaking about a number of matters that would be dealt with in notice No. 9.

Dr PATTERSON:

– I am speaking to the suspension of standing Orders.

Mr Jeff Bate:

– I think he is speaking on the question of urgency. There is a notice on the notice paper covering most of the matters he has raised. The only new material that the honourable member has introduced relates to the area management scheme.I submit, Mr Speaker, that you should rule that the only matter with which he can deal under the Standing Orders is area management.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! There is no substance in the point of order. The motion before the House is for the suspension of Standing Orders. However, I will take this opportunity to remind the honourable member for Dawson that it is a motion for the suspension of Standing Orders. At this stage I think he has gone a little wide of the subject matter.

Dr PATTERSON:

– I have tried to confine myself to the reasons for seeking a suspension of Standing Orders in stating me problems that have arisen, not only the problems that have arisen in country areas but also the problems of Post Office staff involved in the compulsory transfer. I will now deal with the points that the PostmasterGeneral made in his last 2 statements on this matter of area management proposals. Apparently the PostmasterGeneral’s Department is ignoring the protests by the staff affected by the proposed compulsory transfers. These transfers mean that the people will have to sell their homes and in many instances in country areas they will not be able to sell their homes except at give-away prices. What does the Government intend to do about this? This is. another reason why there should be an inquiry.

There is also the area mails centre project which threatens to bring hardship to and place unreasonable requirements on customers of the Post Office in the capital and large provincial cities. This is yet another reason why there should be a suspension of Standing Orders to allow a committee of inquiry to be set up. Many postal workers and Commonwealth public servants in rural areas are being subjected to a downgrading of their district allowances. There is another very pressing reason why these matters should be aired now. There are grave allegations being made by postal workers that the centralised office in Melbourne is becoming even more centralised because of the empire building tactics of what is called the engineer lobby. It is significant that under new proposals of the Postmaster-General’s Department the number of engineers in the Central office will increase from–

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! I have already suggested to the honourable memberfor Dawson that this is a very narrow debate. If the honourable member offends again I will have to ask him to resume his seat.

Dr PATTERSON:

– I respect your ruling but, as you will appreciate, it is extremely difficult always to state a reason here–

Mr SPEAKER:

– Might I also remind the honourable member that if his motion is carried he will have an opportunity then of elaborating on the points he wishes to make.

Sir Alan Hulme:

– He will not have anything more to say.

Dr PATTERSON:

– I have plenty to say. “.We all know the amount of interest that the Postmaster-General has in this problem. He has very little interest and very little inter- est in the problems of rural areas.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order!

Dr PATTERSON:

– He interjected.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I request the honourable member for Dawson for the last time to take heed of my warnings.

Dr PATTERSON:

– No statement has been made by the Postmaster-General as to the real reason for the centralising of staff and the further centralising of offices in rural areas. This is one of the urgent reasons why this matter should be investigated. 1 have moved for the suspension of Standing Orders so that a committee [ could be set up to establish the reasons for this move. Another reason for an urgent inquiry is the obvious uncertainty of the Postmaster-General and his Department about the justification of the scheme itself. This is very relevant. It would seem that the centra) office of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department is itself now establishing a committee of inquiry. But this is not good enough. 1 submit that there should be an independent parliamentary inquiry. There should be a suspension of the Standing Orders virtually to countermand this proposal and allow for an independent inquiry, so that we do not simply have a departmental inquiry white washing itself. There are other urgent reasons for an inquiry. There is a need to provide precise figures of the number of people who will be affected by hardship as a result of their having to move. When this matter is put to the vote or gagged it will be interesting to see the attitude of the Country Party. I assume Country Party supporters will remain silent as usual although they are always condemning the PostmasterGeneral’s Department- .. Mr SPEAKER-Order! The honourable member will resume, his seat.

Mr FULTON:
Leichhardt

– I second the motion. I believe there is an urgent need for the suspension of Standing Orders and the appointment of a committee of inquiry because of the dissatisfaction and the concern amongst many of the employees of the Postmaster-General’s Department. The top engineers are, of course, not affected by this change but rh district reorganisation has not been in the best interests of the Post Office and the public. 1 feel that this matter should he aired because it affects so many people in country areas, particularly in my area around Cairns. I support the motion moved by the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson).

Sir ALAN HULME:
PostmasterGenera! · Petrie · LP

– I am. rather surprised that the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson) should raise this matter at this, point in the parliamentary sessional period.. I made a statement on it in September and another in October. Since then 1 have not had one question from honourable members opposite in relation to any aspect of the matters which were included in those statements. I believe it is fair to say that there has been no request from the Opposition to the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) -

Mr Stewart:

– I rise to order. The PostmasterGeneral is a member of the Government that allows only one question to back benchers on this side of the House every 9 days.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! The Chair has no control over the number of questions asked in this House concerning the PostmasterGeneral. Therefore 1 do not uphold the point of order.

Sir ALAN HULME:

– I was commenting on the fact there had been no questions directed to me in relation to either of those statements on area management since they were made in September and October. Is this to be an indication of the real interest of honourable members opposite in this matter or are we to remind ourselves that 2 or 3 days ago there were sitting in this House and consulting with a large number of members, as is their right, representatives from the Post Office unions. Representatives on the unions sent to every member large screeds of Untruthful comment on area management. These representatives have been consulting with honourable members opposite and it has pleased honourable members to back up what has been said to them by representatives of the unions with a motion for the suspension of Standing Orders.

Mr Speaker, 1 do not know how far you would allow me to go in relation to this question of area management, but it did seem to me that the. honourable member for Dawson was allowed a good deal of latitude in discussing this important proposal. I believe the statement which 1 made in October was a pretty clear indication of a slow process of implementation, giving every opportunity to the staff to make representations and giving every consideration to the staff during the process. It is very easy for the honourable member for Dawson to raise all sorts of bogies in relation to the problems which may or may not develop. But, as 1 said* in my last statement on this matter, practically every member of the staff who will go from his present location to an area centre will in fact go of his own choice.

Mr Whitlam:

– 1 rise to order.

Sir ALAN HULME:

– When did you arrive?

Mr Whitlam:

– I have been in the House for an hour and a quarter.

Sir ALAN HULME:

– I thought about half a minute in this debate.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! Does the Leader of the Opposition wish to raise a point of order?

Mr Whitlam:

– Yes. Mr Speaker, you ought to be at least as severe on the. Minister in keeping him to the question of the suspension of Standing Orders as you were with the honourable member for Dawson. They both have transgressed and you have pulled one up. You ought to pull up the other. If the Postmaster-General wants to debate the matter, let him agree to suspension of Standing Orders and debate the merits.

Motion (by Sir Alan Hulme) agreed to:

That the question be now put.

Original question put:

That the motion (Dr Patterson’s) be agreed to. The House divided. (The Speaker - Hon. Sir William Aston) Ayes . . . . . . 54

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

Majority .. 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

page 4394

REPORT OF JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS ON THE INDIAN OCEAN REGION

Mr N H Bowen:
Minister for Foreign Affairs · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP

– For the information of honourable members, I present a report submitted to me by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs on the Indian Ocean Region. The report represents the Committee’s findings after an extensive and diligent investigation carried out by it over a period of 18 months, lt will help to clarify important issues and, while the Government does not necessarily agree with all of it, it makes a useful contribution to knowledge. 1 have pleasure, therefore, in making it available to the House and to the public.

Ordered that the report be printed.

Motion (by Mr N. St. Bowen) proposed:

That lbc House lake note of the paper.

Debate (on motion by Mr Whitlam) adjourned.

page 4395

DEVELOPMENT WORKS AT HMAS NIRIMBA, QUAKERS HILL

Report of Public Works Committee

Mr KELLY:
Wakefield

– In accordance with the provisions of the Public Works Committee Act 1969. I present the report relating to the following proposed work:

Stage 2 Development Works at HMAS Nirimba. Quakers Hill, New South Wales.

Ordered that the report be printed.

page 4395

FUTURE OF PROVINCIAL CI TIES AND REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Appointment of Select Committee

Mr SCHOLES:
Corio

– I move:

The motion, which is deliberately a short one, would enable any committee which was set up to make fairly wide sweeping inquiries into what is one of the major problems concerning Australia as a nation at this time and which has confronted Australia .as a nation over a considerable period. The degree of inactivity which exists on this matter is startling, to say the least, ‘and is possibly a reflection of self satisfaction’ by those people who believe, as we heard at question time today, that the problems of rural communities and provincial areas can be solved, not by development, not by the increasing and maintenance of population of those areas, but merely by altering the Electoral Act. A select committee of this Parliament would bring down recommendations which could reverse a trend which has been growing over a number of 5’ears.

I think that even at this early stage 1 should put .forward one proposition which will, I hope, counter the proposition put forward by the honourable member for Mallee (Mr Turnbull) that the way to get a better deal in the rural areas is. to reduce the size of the rural electorates and thus give better representation in this Parliament. On the last occasion the Electoral Act was altered the allowable ratio between electorates was increased from 10 per cent to 20 per cent up or down. The census which has been taken since the application of that redistribution shows tha! the growth rate in country areas in Victoria has dropped from 3,53 per cent to 0.52 per cent. So the extra members, satisfied that their seats in Parliament are safe, have decided that . they need do nothing except at some further .date amend the Electoral Aci again.

That is not the way to approach the problem’ which confronts Australia, lt is not the way lo deal with the very serious problem which is shown to exist by growth rate .statistics for any State. .1. have here the growth statistics for Victoria, which I think fairly accurately reflect the position in the rest of Au tralia. Because it is not good to fill a speech up with statistics I will deal only with those statistics relative to Victoria. The metropolitan area of Melbourne, which is changing statistically according to census figures.- in 1933 had 57.83 per cent of the population of Victoria and nonmetropolitan areas had 42.17 per cent. At the time of the last census in June of this year, the proportion of the population in the metropolitan area of Melbourne had grown to 68.1 per cent and the proportion in non-metropolitan areas, including Geelong, had dropped to 31.9 per cent, a drop of 1 1 per cent in a period of 38 years.

I would suggest that this is in itself adequate evidence of the decline in the activities in rural areas and the decline in the importance of provincial areas in Australia.. Since 1961 statistical divisions have been applied to the census so that the actual areas concerned are absolutely identical. “Since the 1961 census the population growth in the statistical division of Melbourne has been very close to 500.000 persons. The growth in the remainder of the State has been 50,000 persons. 10 per cent of the growth rate of Melbourne. That is the real evidence of the problem. It is a growing problem. To indicate how the problem is growing I will quote the growth rates in the non-metropolitan areas in Victoria between censuses. Between 1947 and 1957 there was a 21.8 per cent growth in the non-metropolitan areas of Victoria. In the next inter-census period the growth was 15.45 per cent. In the period between 1961 and 1966 - this is when the rot really set in - the growth rate, in nonmetropolitan areas in Victoria was 3.53 per cent. In the period from 1966 to the last census the growth rale was 0.52 per cent, or half of 1 per cent.

In case it may be thought that because of the changes the changing pattern of the metropolitan area resulting from the change in definition has altered the position materially, I point out that for the remainder of the State, leaving but the statistical division of Melbourne, the growth rate for the period between 1961 and 1966 was 4.61 per cent in non-metropolitan areas, and the growth rate between 1966 and 1971 was 0.94 per cent or less than 1 per cent. That is allowing for the fact that the figures for the metropolitan area of Melbourne relate only to those’ areas within Melbourne’s fixed boundary, which is in fact an unreal position, because the urban area of Melbourne is growing and these figures do not reflect the rural population of individual areas which are in the area of Melbourne but outside the statistical division. This is a real problem.

We have a current problem which I hope is temporary but which most likely is not. I refer to growing unemployment in rural areas. I think this subject is to be covered in a subsequent debate, and it has no real application to the problems which are the subject of this debate. Unemployment in rural areas is a problem but it is not directly associated with the matter we are now discussing. The question which I believe must be decided, and decided quickly, is whether we are to continue with our present method of dealing with rural and provincial depopulation, that is by amending the Electoral Act, or whether we are to do something about the maintenance of population and the maintenance of population ratios in the areas outside the major capital cities? It is ridiculous to suggest that in a nation of 3 million square miles we should be doing everything pos sible to squeeze all the population into a couple of thousand square miles. Is the rest of the nation not fit to be lived in? Some of it is not fit to be lived in by large masses but a great deal of it is and many provincial and rural areas are better equipped than are the metropolitan areas for the growth of population and the maintenance of the way of life we like to think is Australian but which in fact is not Australian. There are many areas of Australia where facilities for population growth already exist and it is necessary to provide the people in those areas with the necessary employment opportunities and the necessary facilities of life to keep these areas as viable population centes. There is hardly a non-metropolitan area in Australia that is at this time growing at a satisfactory rate with satisfactory employment opportunities for the full cross-section of our population.

I believe that only by Government action designed to encourage the maintenance of population in and the movement of population into provincial and regional centres can the non-metropolitan population of Autralia he maintained al a satisfactory level. The stupid and short-sighted proposition which is promoted very often by the Government of Victoria that we should have 5 million people crammed into Melbourne and leave the rest of the State hare of people to me is almost akin to genocide, it will result in a population at some future time of absolutely neurotic morons. We cannot put people in cages continually. Without any policies to develop in the capital cities an environment which is comparable with the environment which people are able to enjoy outside the capital cities we are seriously damaging human beings. By economic pressures we are forcing people who are not urban dwellers or who are not psycholigically orientated towards urban living to move out of country areas into urban living, into areas where the basic facilities are not provided. This is a secondary but a very important problem resulting from depopulation of the country areas. Not only are we forcing people to leave facilities which have been developed and destroying communities which have grown: we are also creating areas of urban population which do not have the basic facilities because the

State governments and the municipal councils do not have the funds to provide and maintain them.

This Government is creating areas which are not satisfactory living areas and this must have the effect of downgrading our population.I would suggest that interdepartmental committees and intergovernmental committees could study these matters. There has been one such committee studying this subject for so many years that no-one can remember the last time that it actually did anything, if it ever did anything. Apparently it has not met for about 3 years. A parliamentary committee would highlight - this is very important - the needs and the problems of non-metropolitan areas and the need for the promotion of future growth. A parliamentary committee would serve to acquaint the members of this Parliament, andI would hope it might even acquaint some of those who represent the rural electorates, with the real problems which are developing, problems which have nothing to do with how many members there are in this Parliament but which have a lot to do with what members are prepared to do for these areas.

The rate of growth of non-metropolitan areas, asI have already said, is totally unsatisfactory. In fact, if it continues to decline at the rate which is shown in the last census we will reach a situation where not much more than 10 per cent of our population will be living outside the capital cities by the year 2000. That is the sort of problem with which we are faced and the sort of problem for which solutions must be found. There are no easy remedies and there are no cheap remedies for this problem. There are some things that the Commonwealth Government could do now. It could decentralise its own departments to a greater extent instead of transferring everyone into a centralised area. With the modern communciations and facilities now available this is quite a practicable step.

This Government could deal with the very severe burden which telephone charges place on businesses operating outside metropolitan areas. For instance in Victoria a business operating in Melbourne has access to a very wide area and a unit charge fee for the payment of a very small extra rental. But a business operating in the city of Ballarat, Bendigo, Geelong or Mildura. which is in the electorate of the honourable member for Mallee (Mr Turnbull) is faced with fantastic telephone charges. A person can make a call from Frankston to Newport or Melbourne for 4c and talk all day. A person who makes a call to the same areas from Geelong, which is a shorter distance, will be charged 20c or 25c for every 3 minutes of the conversation. I do not think that this is a realistic approach to a problem. I think that the realities of the situation are that businesses are seriously disadvantaged by this type of costing. The postal services available to businesses in country areas are less than satisfactory.

I had reason to protest recently about the advertising of jobs with the Commonwealth Department of Works at the Avalon airfield which is just outside Geelong. The jobs were advertised in Melbourne and the applicants had to go to Melbourne to apply for jobs in Geelong. That is the psychology of the Commonwealth Department of Works. The reason why the jobs were not advertised in Geelong, according to the Department, was that ithad to give a week’s notice to country newspapers to insert the advertisement but it had to give only 1 day’s notice to city newspapers. That is not true. The fact is that the Commonwealth Advertising Division was not prepared to place the advertisement unless it had a week’s notice, so people living in the area where the employment was needed could apply for these jobs only by going to Melbourne but by the time they got there they had all been taken.

There is a very serious lack of facilities in country areas. There is very little reason why businesses would establish themselves in country areas at this stage. Country areas have many disadvantages and the Commonwealth adds to- those disadvantages. These areas have very few advantages other than a better environment and possibly a more stable work force. But the problems are such that economically the people in these areas are disadvantaged. The Commonwealth, no longer controls payrolltax but this is an area in which the States could take action in order to give advantage to country industries over and above metropolitan industries. In other countries there are means which are used to promote the growth of non-metropolitan industries in certain areas. These are matters which 1 think could well be taken up by this House and could well be put before a committee which could sift out the problems, such a committee should consist of people who are interested in this problem, of people who .have a voice in. this Parliament and who are able to be effective. Public servants are npt the people who should be inquiring into human problems which are the, responsibility of the Parliament.

I believe that a parliamentary committee should be set up to investigate this matter. It may be that the terms of reference of the committee would not necessarily be those contained in the motion. Other terms of. reference may be more, desirable but 1 believe, the principle should be established. I will be very interested at the conclusion of this debate to see whether a vote is taken. I was told a few minutes ago that the debate will be chopped off at 12 o’clock so that some Government business can be brought on. But’ if a vote is allowed,-‘ and I hope it will be, I will’ be interested to ‘see whether members of this Parliament are prepared to support the appointment of a parliamentary committee to inquire into the future of human beings in this country. We have. taken this action in regard to our wildlife. We have done. it,for fauna. It is about time that we did it lor human beings’ because after all they are at least equally important.

Mr Bryant:

– Kangaroos may be more important.

Mr SCHOLES:

– Kangaroos do not get counted . under the provisions of the Electoral Act. I think that human beings are just as important even though they are not always, represented in this Parliament. Another point I .would like to make is that the statistical evidence of a decline, and a rapidly, increasing .decline, in the percentage of population iti non-metropolitan areas,, is beyond question. So. that honourable members may have available to them information on the population in Victoria I seek, leave of the House to incorporate in Hansard a table which sets out the census figures .. for metropolitan . and nonmetropolitan areas.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER <Mr Lucock:
LYNE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– ls leave granted? There, being no objection; leave is granted. (The ‘document read as follows) -

Mr SCHOLES:

– The table refers solely to census statistics which have been compiled. I think they are of value because they show exactly what the problem is. Because of the space that would have been required, the table refers only to one State but I know that the general trend is almost identical in other States. There is a real need, if this population trend is to be reversed, for secondary and manufacturing industries to be established in country area’s. Possibly academic institutions including tertiary institutions could also be established. But the real solution to the problem is the development of manufacturing industries in country areas. This can largely be done only at the provincial level or the regional centre level but it would provide a basis for employment over a wide area. If we continue in the way that we are now doing without being prepared even tolook at the problem then we will jeopardise the future of the entire population of this nation. Not only are we jeopardising the future of those people in country areas but we are seriously jeopardising those in the major metropolitan areas which must suffer through unnatural population growth. I commend the motion to the House and I hope that the House will agree to it. I believe that it is very important that the House does so.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Is the motion seconded?

Mr Kennedy:

– I second the motion and reserve my right to speak later.

Dr SOLOMON:
Denison

– As I understand the burden of the complaint of the honourable member for Corio (Mr Scholes) it is that this Government and various preceding governments of Australia and of the States are responsible for the population distribution of Australia. Unfortunately in the main I believe that is not so although there are certain things which governments might do to try to redistribute the population in some measure. I find myself in the position of being able to commend the honourable member for Corio in, I think, one respect only and that his proposition, real or implied, that a national view of this sort of thing is desirable.

I agree with that implicitly. However, I think that the honourable member fails to recognise some very substantial historical and geographical underpinnings of the situation which he has described and deplored in his speech this morning. The honourable member suggests that this is a major issue, and that is perfectly correct. He suggests that it is a major issue because of government inactivity. I do not want to traverse at this particular time the longish history of the distribution of population and the extent of urbanisation in Australia, or for that matter anywhere else, because it is a worldwide phenomenon. But the plain fact of the matter is that this country was settled through 6 port settlements which became towns and cities. Various other developments took place, notably in the economic life of the areas over which the port settlements came to have domination. Therefore population concentrated on those 6 centres.

Unlike the United States of America, which I think is the best comparative example which I can make, we have continued in that way. There has been a concentration, or perhaps an overconcentration and influence on and by 6 port capitals. In the United States there was a population movement westward. . Railways preceded the development of settlements and various centres were set up so that there was an urban frontier as well as a rural frontier in the early part of the 19th Century. The population moved on to the west coast and then something approximating the coastal distribution of population in Australia came into being. But in the meantime the middle of the American continent, which was basically settleable, had become settled. That was not the case inAustralia for reasons which are all too obvious to members of this chamber and to those outside it. So do not let us try to pin this thing on this Government or any other government.

There are other aspects of the matter on which, I hope, I will have time to dilate. However, basically what the honourable member for Corio was talking about is the process of urbanisation, which used to be called the rural-urban drift, by which people have increasingly concentrated in cities. This has happened not just in Australia. The process of urbanisation occurred in some ways in other parts of the world before it took place in Australia. Attention was drawn to this phenomenon in a notable work before the turn of the century. This work made considerable reference to the distrubition of population in. this process of urbanisation in Britain, Europe and elsewhere, but notably in Britain and Europe. So, initially, we are not talking really of provincial centres and regional development; we are talking about the process of urbanisation because from that stem any problems that may exist in provincial centres and in regional development. This area was touched on only lightly by the honourable member for Corio. In that sense I would criticise the honourable member’s terms of reference, although he fundamentally is trying to do something which is sensible. But I believe that he puts gorward a too narrow term of reference for the consideration of this problem because the problem stems from the metropolitan situation and only from there, and after that, one may come up with certain rural problems.

The extent of urbanisation in Australia is well known, lt is not necessarily well known in degrees of particularity. I would like, if 1 may, to incorporate in Hansard a small table based on census statistics relating to the 6 State capitals. I will draw attention to it later in 2 or 3 sentences.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted. (The document read as follows) -

Dr SOLOMON:

– The document merely shows how certain functions are concentrated in the capital cities. I do not wish fo dilate upon the whole matter. Although the figures are slightly dated, the relativity is roughly the same and we get the following kind of situation. Firstly 56 per cent of the population of New South Wales was concentrated in Sydney at the time of the 1961 census. Some 57 per cent of the retail activity and 73 per cent of the manufacturing jobs were concentrated in that city. That sort of situation can be reproduced through 4 other capital cities. The only exception is Hobart where, at the same date, 33 per cent of the population, 40 per cent of the retailing activity and 32 per cent of the manufacturing jobs were concentrated. Tn other words, there is in Australia only one example of actual decentralisation in operation. It has occurred, as it were, naturally. There is governmental influence but it has not occurred basically because of governmental influence.

This situation has occurred because the island of Tasmania was settled simultaneously through 2 centres - Launceston in the north and Hobart in the south. Tasmania even developed one or two other coastal centres of reasonable standing. As a result the island developed a decentralisation of various functions, not the least manufacturing, which has not been reproduced in any other States. This is the basic reason why we have the situation about which the honourable member for Corio complains. In saying that I do not suggest that it is impossible for governments to do anything about the matter, nor that it should be. But I find the honourable member somewhat less than factual when he makes certain suggestions. In fact, I am surprised that he concentrated on Victoria in this matter. I say that for several reasons, one of them being that the honourable member comes from that State.

He suggests that there is a great Victorian Government emphasis on “Melbourne to the detriment of the rural areas. Whether or not that is so 1 cannot prove in the course of the next 5 or so minutes, but the plain fact of the matter is that for governmental or other reasons, Victoria has the densest average distribution of population of any Australian State, including Tasmania, lt could even bc said - from some points of view that Victoria has the best population distribution in a balanced fashion which is partly a reflection on the fact that most of the countryside is able to be occupied and worked in some sort of way. I do not think I have found myself in a position before of making a brief for the Bolte Government but I would like to point out that the Liberal government of Victoria for some time have consistently tried all forms, of manufacturing and industrial locational incentives to get decentralisation moving in Victoria to a greater extent than already exists. So it is less than fair to suggest that the Government is willy-nilly interested in the promotion of Melbourne to the detriment of the “ rest of Victoria.

If we turn to this Government- and taking up the same point made by the honourable member for Corio - we clearly have example after example of governmental legislation, sometimes fully supported, sometimes supported to a lesser degree and sometimes even opposed in certain respects by those on the opposite side of the chamber, to assist rural industries. A substantia) proportion of our recent sessions has been taken up by measures to support rural industries. If the honourable member does not think that these measures have been designed to keep people on the land and in country towns I am not sure what he thinks they are designed to do. In the last few months we had a Bill - and other Bills have also been introduced - designed to keep the Shepparton cannery in operation for the sole purpose, one. assumes, of retaining the population in that centre instead of having it drift in the direction of Melbourne or some other capital city. Therefore I think the honourable member does less than justice, to put it mildly, to both Federal and State Governments as I have shown by a couple of examples in relation to this problem.

Decentralisation is an important matter. 1 believe that the honourable member who preceded me completely failed to appreciate the difficulties of achieving it. In the first place Australia has a great lack, by world comparisons, of medium sized towns and medium sized regional centres for tha reasons which I spoke of earlier in reference to the United States. He failed also to take account of the fact that possibly the most against decentralisation is that there is a lack of differential labour costs which is not the situation in the United States. In that country there are regional disparities in costs and one can employ people in the south east for about 70 per cent of the wage than would have to be paid for labour in New York or on the west coast. Clearly this is an incentive to decentralisation. It is an incentive to put industry down in the south east because the wage bill is a good deal less. If an industry is a labour intensive industry such as the textile industry, so much the better. We do not have the advantage, if it is an advantage, of an incentive for decentralisation. I think that in a speech delivered on another occasion I drew attention to a small experiment which took place in Townsville about a year ago. That place is probably one of our better examples, and one of our few examples, of significant decentralisation outside the capital cities.

A governmentally established industrial estate was set up at the cost of something like $600,000 and a year or so after having been set up it had placed on it one tilemaking industry employing, I think, 3 or 4 people at the time.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Order! As it is now 2 hours after the time fixed for the meeting of the House, tha debate is interrupted.

Motion (by Mr Garland) agreed to:

That the lime for the discussion of notices be extended until 12.45 p.m.

Dr SOLOMON:

– The situation is that certain efforts, which have been made over quite a long period of time in some cases to achieve decentralisation, have not been notably successful. In fact, at the base of the problem - I am not suggesting that an attempt cannot be made to solve the problem - there is the situation to which I havedrawn attention during my earlier remarks. Firstly, there has been historical, followed by geographical, inertia in which it is well nigh impossible or, at least, very difficult to move people off their pitch. If they arc well established with all their ramifications and industrial links and so on,, it is difficult to move them from where they are, and where they , are usually happens, to be the metropolitan, areas. I draw attention to other moves, which are [not exactly governmental moves, such as the new States movement. Look what happened to the New England new State movement. That could have been regarded as a popular move to decentralisation and the proliferation of Slates because our too few Slates or too many, however one regards’ it,. is the. basis of our State-Federal problem in Australia.. However, that was, for whatever reasons, unsuccessful. So, I hope . I have made the point; it is not easy to decentralise.

In the few minutes remaining to me I should like to discuss how decentralisation may be achieved. There ‘.are, of course, many ways in which that can be done. I think probably the most telling factor would be, in a sense, a negative one. When the big cities reach a stage where economies of scale no longer operate and become diseconomies there will probably be the greatest incentive to . decentralisation. It was nm found in places like New York that those factors of diseconomy operated in any significant way until the populations reached at least 5 million and. in the case of New York, about 1.0 million. One or two people looking at Australia on a comparative basis with the United States certainly have come to the conclusion that those diseconomies are not likely to operate significantly in Sydney or Melbourne until they reach populations of the order of 5 million people. So. what are we left with? On the positive side, are the creation of manufacturing incentives and the making of incentives for service provisions. In fact, the latter may be more important than manufacturing incentives. Certain studies have shown that, in fact, people look lo areas - this is well known, I think - where their children can have a good schooling, where they have good access to markets and to their shopping provisions and so on. It may be that if governmental influence were to come to bear on creating service provisions before manufacturing provisions in certain decentralised places, more may;, be achieved. Nevertheless that is difficult .and it brings in .certain, other concepts of - a technical kind involving service functions which are regarded by geographers arid, others as basic functions on the one hand, and non- . basic on the other. The basic Junctions are those which .are city-growing and suburban forming functions./ The non-basic ones are those which . merely’ serve the populations which are there.. There is no time. for me. to dilate upon that.

I was disappointed that -the honourable member for Corio did not speak more of regional ‘development and’ did not appear to . show an understanding that regions usually- operate in a context of what are called ‘nodal regions, operating but of or dominated or influenced by: focal points. Again, :-we lack these focal -points. There may ;be. a case to stimulate : them but in stimulating ; them we face certain difficul-, ties. Finally, perhaps one should draw attention,. as 1 did in a question a week or so ago, to the proposition of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) which no doubt he will expand upon later in this debate, in regard to governmental proposals and -new structures of government which, from., my. reading of them, appear to divorce., the. rural areas from the urban areas. In fact, this would cut right across . the. whole functional basts of. regional development which is an integration of urban operation and of rural operation. “Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock) - Order! The honourable member’s timehas e’p:red.

Mr WHITLAM:
Leader of the Opposition · Werriwa

– 1 am disappointed that the honourable member for Denison (Dr Solomon) did not see fit lo support the proposition of my colleague, thc honourable member for Corio (Mr Scholes), that the House of Representatives set up a select committee to inquire into and report upon the future of provincial cities and regional development. The crux of the proposition is to set up a select committee. Any select committee has representatives from both sides of the House: any select committee has a Government supporter as its chairman and a majority of Government members. I am certain that there would be a great degree and a growing degree of common interest between members from both sides of this House if they were to get down together and consider this subject. I will concede that the honourable member for Denison, coming from the smallest of Australia’s State capitals and from a State which does have some other considerable centres of urban development, could contribute to the proceedings of such a committee. A committee is bipartisan. There is a remarkable solidarity among the members of any committee which is set up in this Parliament. I am disappointed that the honourable gentleman did not support the idea.

Even if, however, the idea is too novel for Government members, it is not a new idea. Back in 1961, a former Leader of the Australian Country Party - not the immediate past one or the one before that, but the one before that, Sir Earle Page - moved that there be an expert committee appointed to inquire into and report on the best means of securing effective decentralisation of population, industry, communications and administration. He was supported by the late Mr David Drummond, with whom I worked for nearly 4 years on the Joint Select Committee on Constitutional Review. I came to know and to respect and to share Mr Drummond’s ideas of decentralisation. I prefer the term ‘concentrated’ or ‘accelerated development’. However one describes it, Mr Drummond showed as Minister for Education in New South Wales in the 1930s that there are fields where governments can accelerate the development of some areas. Where now would the city of Armidale be in New South Wales were is not for the teachers college which Mr Drummond sited there and for the university which he initiated there?

Education and science is clearly a field where great initiatives can be taken, particularly in the tertiary field - in which, of course, the Australian Labor Party includes, even if the Liberal Party does not, the question of teacher education - and where the Commonwealth can contribute to the accelerated development of centres now. On that occasion, back on 27th April 1961, the former honourable member for Bendigo, Mr Beaton, moved an amendment to detail further matters upon which the expert committee should make recommendations, but he supported the establishment of such a committee.I was the second speaker on our side. The time for the debate ran out; I was given the right to continue my remarks; the matter remained on the notice paper; the debate was never concluded; and no vote had been taken when the Parliament was dissolved for the 1961 elections.

On 29th April 1965, Mr Beaton himself moved a motion to set up a joint parliamentary committee - not an expert committee; a joint parliamentary committee - to investigate this matter. I ask leave of the House to incorporate in Hansard the text of Mr Beaton’s proposal for this committee and the subjects which it was to cover.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted. (The document read as follows) -

  1. a joint parliamentary committee consisting of Government and Opposition Members from both Houses be appointed to enquire into and report on the best means by which the Commonwealth, by co-operation with the States and local government, may secure more balanced development of population, industry, communications and administration;
  2. the committee make recommendations in regard to -
  3. those industries which shouldbe established in provincial, country and northern areas;

    1. concessions in individual, company, sales or other taxation to encourage such industries;
    2. other concessions and assistance;
    3. government investment either alone or jointly with private investment to develop or establish such industries;
    4. communications, housing, transport, water, power, light and fuel;
    5. the decentralization of government administration;
    6. education, medical and other facilities in decentralized areas; and
    7. any related matters which in the opinion of the committee will assist in obtaining more balanced developments; and
  4. the committee be empowered to call evidence from any person, organization or authority it sees fit.
Mr WHITLAM:

- Mr Beaton was followed by Mr McMahon, who was then Minister for Labour and National Service, then by the honourable member for Kal- goorlie (Mr Collard), and then by the Minister for Primary Industry at the time, Mr Anthony, who said about this proposal:

His suggestion -

That is Mr Beaton’s- that a joint paliamenlary committee should be set up to deal with this problem is a bit late, really. His proposal would not fit the bill as well as what the Government has proposed already. At the premiers Conference held in July last year - that is, 1964 - it was suggested that there should be joint meet ings between Commonwealth . authorities and State departments to go into this problem of decentralisation throughout Australia. On 5th and 6th March this year- that is, 1965 - there was a meeting of representatives of the States and the Commonwealth, which shows a positive action to try to do something about this major problem.

That was the Commonwealth and State Officials Committee on Decentralisation. It has since met on 3 occasions - on 30th November 1966, 7th February 1969 and 12th October last. It is because of our exasperation with this Official Committee, which was set up after the Premiers Conference in 1964 and behind which the present Leader of the Country Party hid in 1965, that we move again for the establishment of a parliamentary committee. It is inconceivable that if there had been a parliamentary committee it would have taken as long to consider and to recommend measures for decentralisation as this Officials Committee has taken. The Officials Committee has met 4 times in over 7 years. We know that when either House of this Parliament sets up a committee it acts as an amazing catalyst and spur to official committees. The Nimmo Committee was set up within a month of the Senate setting up, pursuant to a promise I made in the 1967 Senate election that there would be a Senate select committee to look into medical and hospital costs. People act very quickly in these circumstances. Let us set up a parliamentary committee; a committee which would have a few advisers; one which would report promptly; and one, above all, which would get members on both sides to tackle these matters.

Mr Beaton’s motion in 1965 never came to a vote. At 12.30 p.m., which was the cut-off time for General Business at that time, our Whip moved that the time for the discussion be extended to 12.45 p.m. Government supporters voted against this extension of time, although Mr Anthonywas on his feet at the time when the debate was interrupted. The list of Government members who voted against the extension of time for Mr Anthony was headed by Mr Anthony himself. The 1966 elections Came before the debate could ever be resumed. Then. Mr Beaton again, on 13th April 1967 raised the matter for a third time. AsI say, it is not a new matter, but for the Government it is still a novel one.

I come then to this Officials Committee.

I asked the new Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) when he took over what were the names and positions of the Commonwealth members of the Committee. On 6th May last he gave me the following answer:

  1. . it is not the policy of this Government to disclose the type of information for which the honourable member asks.

I put a question on this matter on the notice paper for the Minister for Trade and Industry, the Leader of the Country Party (Mr Anthony), because he had admitted that his Department was represented on this joint Committee. It transpires, from an answer which he gave on29th September, recalling a pre-McMahon Government answer on 14th April last year, that the departments represented on the Committee are the Prime Minister’s, Treasury, Trade and Industry, Primary Industry, National Development and Labour and National Service. Firstly, it is remarkable that the Postmaster-General’s Department is not represented on the Committee. All the State Committees which have investigated this matter have pointed out that communications in the hands of the Commonwealth are a key cost item in accelerated development. Secondly, the Department of Shipping and Transport is not represented on the Committee. Clearly, the Commonwealth’s responsibilities, its sole initiatives in rebuilding country railways, and its responsibilities for building roads, should be considered. Nor is the Department of Civil Aviation represented on the Committee; the State committees have pointed out the Commonwealth’s crucial role in regard to aerodromes. Nor is the Department of Education and Science represented on the Committee, as I have already mentioned. Where would Townsville be now but for the Com- monwealth contributions in the field of education and science? A- concluding example is that the Department of the Environment, Aborigines and . the Arts, which is now responsible for tourism, is not represented on the Committee. If there is any new industry which will give employment in the country and which will earn export income in Australia, it is tourism.

The motion refers to provincial cities. I wish that Australians who live outside the State capitals would rid themselves of the idea that the word ‘city’ is a 4-letter word, a dirty word. The future of decentralisation in Australia depends on building Up cities. It is only in the Australian federation that one would ever use the word ‘city’ as a synonym for ‘State capital’. In the American federation and in the Canadian federation one does not have this colonial definition of city’ as a State capital. There are more cities outside the State capitals in the United States or outside the provincial capitals in Canada than there are capitals. The future of Australia, the future comfort of the population of our State capitals, and the future prosperity of the people who still live in the country depend on building up existing centres and creating cities.

I have mentioned one very clear example, that of Albury-Wodonga. It is important because it is a production and communications centre geographically’ midway between Canberra and Melbourne, lt is an area to which I have suggested that the Commonwealth might transfer sonic of its remaining departments in Melbourne. Perhaps I might be allowed to incorporate in Hansard a reply which the Prime Minister gave me on 3rd December last to a couple of questions I had asked without notice on this suggestion; the Prime Minister’s letter giving the advice which he said, in answer to my question, he would seek from the Public Service Board:

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Is leave granted? There being no objection leave is granted. (The document read as follows)– Dear Mr Whitlam,

On 30 November 1971 ‘you asked me a ‘question relating to decentralisation and the location of Commonwealth Government Departments.

Since the question was asked I have received a report from the Chairman of the Public Service Board on tha possible transfer of central offices of Commonwealth departments still located in Melbourne to a mid-point such as Albury-Wodonga Instead of to Canberra. In his advice the Chairman of the Board said:

It is apparent that there would be significant costs in terms of departmental operating efficiency if the central offices of some departments were transferred to a’ country centre outside of Canberra. One major difficulty would be the recruitment and retention of a sufficient number of staff, particularly specialised and senior staff, in such a location. There would also bc direct costs, such as additional transport and communication expenses, over those arising if the units were located in Canberra or Melbourne. From the viewpoint of C.P.S. administration, therefore, the Board would have no reason to. recommend the transfer of central offices of Commonwealth Departments to A Albury Wodonga . ‘

I also undertook to make enquiries about the present position regarding the report of the Commonwealth/State Officials’ Committee on Decentralisation. The Report of the Committee has not yet been received by the Government. The Committee is in the course of preparing its Report which, when completed, will be for consideration by the Commonwealth and State Governments.

Yours sincerely, william Mcmahon;. (William McMahon)

Mr WHITLAM:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There is an additional reason why Albury-Wodonga should be built up. lt happens to be on a State border and the Commonwealth therefore has some constitutional powers in respect of interstate trade and commerce. There are, of course, other centres as well. We must abandon the notion that if people want occupation, accommodation or recreation, particularly if they are young people, they have to go to the State capitals. One of the saddest things in Australia is that whenever one goes to the country one finds in the local newspapers a report of a farewell party for some teenager or man or woman in his or her early 20s who is leaving for the city, by which is meant the State capital. I conclude with a resolution which was passed by my Party’s last Conference in Launceston. It states:

It should be ALP policy to identify a number of sites for new cities and to proceed with their development in co-operation with the relevant States to provide effective decentralisation of development, to arrest the depopulation of the countryside and to slow up the growth of our major cities.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member’s time has expired.

Mr MacKELLAR:
Warringah

– I was most interested to hear the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) conclude by reading out some aspects of his Party’s policy on decentralisation. This bears very closely on what has been said today because one member of his Party obviously cannot agree with that policy as he has moved for the appointment of a select committee to investigate these aspects of decentralisation.

Members of the Opposition seem surprised when the Government refuses to countenance the setting up of various select committees. But I wonder whether members of the Opposition realise just how many select committees they have proposed establishing in the life of this Parliament. I wonder whether they realise the physical problems associated with setting up and servicing that number of select committees. I think that it might be useful for the Australian people and for members of the Opposition to know the number of select committees that the Opposition has proposed during this Parliament.

Proposals by the Opposition have been made to appoint select committees to inquire into the following Bills: The Loan (Qantas Airways Limited) Bill, the Air Navigation Bill, the Social Services Bill, the Superannuation Bill, the Repatriation Bill, the Social Services Bill (No. 2), the New South Wales Grant (Flood Mitigation) Bill, the Post and Telegraph Bill, the Repatriation Bill (No. 2), the Loan (War Service Land Settlement) Bill (1970) and the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Bill .1970.

The appointment of select committees has been proposed to deal with airport and harbour development, decentralisation and an amendment to the motion that the House take note of the paper - ‘Service Employment, Committee of Inquiry’ seeking the appointment of a joint select committee. Not content with that, 6 motions seeking the suspension of Standing Orders to enable motions to be moved proposing the appointment of select committees have been moved by the honourable member for Hindmarsh (Mr Clyde Cameron), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitiam), the honourable member for Oxley (Mr Hayden), the honourable member for Chifley (Mr Armitage), the honourable member for Bendigo (Mi Kennedy) and the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson). In all, 21 addi tional select committees have been proposed by the Opposition during the life of this Parliament. Anybody in his right senses would realise that the members of this Parliament have more to do than merely belong to select committees of this Parliament. If . every request for the appointment of a select committee proposed by the Opposition was taken up, 21 select committees would be operating in the House of Representatives. One wonders why, in this proliferation of requests for select committees, the Opposition is not brave enough to decide policies for itself and to come out and tell the Australian people what its policies are instead of hiding behind requests for the establishment of select committees which would result in other people doing the work of the Opposition for it while its members get on with the internal strife which dogs the Australian Labor Party.

The honourable member for Corio (Mr Scholes) has opened up a most interesting area of debate. I agree with quite a number of things that the honourable member has said. This is an area in which we are all tremendously interested not only as members of Parliament but as dwellers in this country. The honourable member seemed surprised that the proportion of people on the land was declining. I cannot understand why this fact comes as such a surprise to members of the Opposition. The historical fact is that, as the economy of a country develops sophistication, a declining proportion of that country’s population will be engaged in rural industry. This has happened everywhere in the world. Yet this development seems to come as a bit of a surprise to members of the Opposition and particularly the honourable member for Corio. It is not hard, if one thinks about it - without the need to set up a select committee - to find out the reasons for this decline.

This decline has occurred not only in the numbers of people with country holdings but also in small country towns and their populations. If one investigates or thinks about this trend, it is not very difficult to come up with an answer as to the reasons for the development. There has been an accelerating technological change in the carrying on of the business of primary production all over the world. As a country becomes agriculturally more sophisticated, the technical change in the machinery which is used to produce primary products inevitably whittles away the number of human beings required to take part in agricultural production. The number of people required to perform rural work inevitably declines as technical change proliferates in country areas. But not only has this occurred but also has the demand for services in small country towns declined.

Other changes occur as economic sophistication increases in a country. A most important one which has nol been mentioned during this debate is the improvement in transport facilities available to country people. I refer not only to the motor car and light aircraft in more remote areas but also to the quality and extent of the road system. I come from a small country town. T can remember very clearly the numbers of horses and sulkies that were to be seen in the country areas of north western New South Wales just after the Second World War. Now, a sulky is virtually a museum piece. It would be unusual to find’ a horse and sulky being used anywhere in country areas. The resUlt is that people not only have the opportunity to travel more widely but also in many cases have the facility to travel and do travel more widely than they did.

Where do they go? They go to the larger country areas and they go to the cities more frequently than they did in the past. I can remember when it was really a big effort to travel 330 miles from the north west of New South Wales to Sydney. One thought about this trip for some days and prepared for it most carefully. It could take up to 2 days in an old Morris car. Now one can literally hop into ones car and undertake this trip in 8 hours or less. The reason for the decline in smaller country towns, which is being called into question today, is not only that not as much farm work by country citizens is required as was in the past but also that the land owners living around the small country towns do not need the provision of the back up facilities that they had in the past.

In addition, cultural opportunities for people in small country towns are limited when compared with those available in larger country towns and in cities. It is only to be expected that the brightest sons of people in country areas will look for opportunities in places where they can realise their potential. They will seek opportunities for varied and interesting jobs. In other words, the pressure on them to move from country areas will be very strong. 1 deplore this. I deplore the necessity for it. But we must face the facts - -something which the Labor Party is not noted for doing. We must realise that this will occur and we should not be surprised when it does. 1 have been emphasising ma. nl, the situation with respect to the smaller country towns. This pressure for movement is not so great in the larger country towns which have built up a certain amount of industrialisation. Another point is that cities of a reasonable size - I. am not referring to capital cities - offer considerable attractions for people from the country. This is particularly so with respect to. seaside cities. Those people who have lived in inland Australia, particularly in the hotter area’s, will know just how pleasant it is at times lo get away from the physical conditions which obtain in those areas of Australia and go to a seaside town. Job opportunities and the variety of employment offered there are much greater and this is a big incentive for people to go to the cities. In addition the cultural opportunities are much hotter for people in cities than they are in country towns, particularly the small country towns.

The honourable member for Corio and other honourable members have quite rightly recognised the disadvantages of city dwelling, particularly in the major cities of Melbourne and Sydney. As we have heard frequently in this chamber, land costs in those cities have risen quite markedly, forcing people to move further and further out and developing the so-called urban sprawl with ali the problems that it engenders. We have overcrowding in many areas of the cities and this again leads to a whole series of physical and psychological problems. Transport difficulties in the major cities act as a deterrent to ‘ many people who might otherwise come to the cities, and quite rightly so. It is ridiculous that one spends up to 20 per cent of one’s waking hours travelling to and from work. The environmental disturbance occurring in major cities is something which is quite properly becoming much more important. People are realising that if they want to live in circumstances which appear delightful to them they must pay for efforts to overcome environmental disturbance. They are realising also that in blindly building up major cities they are making a rod for their backs. A serious problem in major cities at the moment is the increase in the crime rate. These are just some of the features of city life which act as deterrents to people coming to major cities.

But let us face the situation and be honest about it. At the moment we have not only the historical pressures moving people from rural areas to city areas but also the rural crisis, the diminution of prices and. the loss of viability . of many rural enterprises. We have very strong factors moving people towards better job opportunities, a greater variety of jobs and better cultural facilities which are available to them in the cities. It will not do very much good to set up a select committee to inquire into these problems. The problems are before us and have been appreciated on both sides of the House. Why on earth would anybody set up a select committee to inquire into them? Anybody who has been a member of a select committee will know the time that it takes to conduct an investigation. The Leader of the Opposition detracts a little from this fact. He said it does not take very much time at all. The problems are more urgent than was suggested by the honourable member for Corio when moving this motion. It is just procrastination to suggest that we set up a select committee to inquire into these matters.

Nothing has been said about the responsibilities of the States in this respect. It is a typical Australian Labor Party proposal - Let us centralise the whole thing and we will provide the money’. It is another example of the way in which the Opposition would detract from the sovereignty of the States and the very real responsibilities of the States. Not a word was said about co-operation with the States in analysing this problem and seeking a solution. The Opposition says: ‘Let us set up a select committee’ - the 21st select committee that has been proposed in 2 years,

The Leader of the Opposition said that his policy was to select certain country towns. This, on the face of it, sounds tremendous. But he has not the courage to say which country towns he would select. He has not done this for the very good reason that he knows that as soon as he selects one country town or city he will have the rest of the country areas up in arms. He will gain votes in one place but lose votes in the other rural areas of Australia. Let us be perfectly frank about it. We on this side of the House, and I in the Budget debate this year, have outlined the problems of people in rural areas - and city areas - caused by the drift to the cities. I agree that there is a very real need, and I have said so, to develop growth centres in areas outside the major cities. But I cannot and will not agree that the way to do this is to set up the 21st proposed select committee of this Parliament to investigate the problems which are apparent not only to honourable members in this House but also to the State governments. The State governments have gone by the board in the measures proposed by the Opposition. Nothing has been said about the very real efforts of the New South Wales Government and its Department of Decentralisation.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Hallett:
CANNING, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Order! The honourable member’s time has expired.

Mr KENNEDY:
Bendigo

– We have just been listening to the authentic voice of 19th century Australian Toryism. The greatest progress that the honourable member for Warringah (Mr MacKellar) could say he had seen in the 30 or 40 years he has occupied this land was the emergence of transport from the primeval stage of the horse and sulky. No doubt if he had been articulate then he would have opposed that too, most likely as being an interference with State rights. I find that sort of view taken by the honourable member incomprehensible. It is hard to believe that honourable members on the other side of the House can continue to express that sort of view. I represent an area that is partly urban and partly rural. It is a provincial electorate. I can tell the honourable members opposite - there have been only 2 who have spoken in this debate and. incidentally, there have been none from the Country Party - that for the people I represent and for most people in the countryside this is not a matter to be put oft again and again, lt is a serious human problem which is best expressed by :the simple term “heartbreak’. This is something which is often felt by families when ;they lose their children to the metropolis at the end of their school days.

Mr Garland:

– Give us something specific.

Mr KENNEDY:

– Just hold on a minute. If rhs Minister wishes to speak the Opposition will move for an extension of time for the debate and he can speak for whatever time he likes. If he will just wait he will hear some comments which may be of value to him.

Mr Garland:

– Do not be abusive.

Mr KENNEDY:

– I am not being abusive. I am pointing out a few facts. The honourable member for Warringah said: We think there are things more urgent than setting up a select committee’. He rubbished the whole idea of a select committee. He said that the Opposition had moved for ‘.he establishment of 21 select committees, but what he did not point out was that the Government had knocked back every one of them because it does not want to educate itself on the problems of the Australian poeple or on the remedies. It has refused to accept advice from outside. It is a typical, complacent Tory government; it could not care less. The honourable member for Warringah said that a select committee is not appropriate because it is an urgent matter but be did not, of course, amend the motion the Opposition has moved. Nor did he explain why, if this problem was being treated so seriously, the Government’s committee has been mee’ ing with State officials for 7 years. It has met 4 times in 7 years and it still has not produced a report on decentralisation for the Australian people and the Government to study. This shows how urgent decentralisation is to honourable members opposite. There is not enough time left in this debate - only 5 minutes remain - for me to go much further. The simple point that the Opposition is making is that there is an urgent need for effective Commonwealth action on decentralisation We all have the chance by accepting this motion to inform ourselves so that we can decide what we can do about it. This is an opportunity for all Par ies to be represented, including the Country Party, whose representatives have been as silent as the grave today. They have nothing to contribute except a request that their dwindling farm vote be made even more secure against population changes in the future. There are Liberal members who represent rural areas. The honourable member for Ballaarat (Mr Erwin) should be concerned about the economic position of the provincial city which he represents. He has nothing to say. He will not support a move in this Parliament today to set up a committee on decentralisation. The honourable member for Ballaarat should at some time, either on the adjournment or during this debate, express his views on decentralisation.

Mr Erwin:

– You are full of wind.

Mr KENNEDY:

– I would not like to prick the honourable member too often either. There are many things which can be done. We are putting a very simple proposition to the House and to the Government today, lt is tha! there should be a select committee from all parties because unless we accept that there must be Commonwealth participation in decentralisation there will be no decentralisation. There will be a continuing over-centralisation of population in city regions and a continuation of stagnation in rural and provincial areas. That is a simple proposition. Does the Government support decentralisation or does it not? If it does it should do something about it and not keep up the delaying action which has now been going on for at least 7 years so far as the State and Commonwealth officials committee is concerned. Because of a shortage of time there is not much more I can say although there is a lot I would like to say. 1 am particularly concerned about this situation but I have agreed to let the honourable member for Riverina (Mr Grassby) speak briefly on the subject also.

Mr GARLAND:
Minister for Supply · Curtin · LP

– I think that the honourable member for Warringah (Mr MacKellar) made the most powerful point that emerged in this debate when he pointed out that this method of attempting to formulate policy by the Labor Party

Opposition is really no policy whatsoever. He pointed out that there were some 22 attempts by the Opposition to set up select committees or the like in order to examine certain aspects of government. It has been, . I think, very plain in the last year or two that the Opposition cannot devise policy with any precision and has to resort to this technique in coming in .here and speaking very superficially and loosely about difficult matters such as social questions, political questions and economic questions and speaking very superficially also upon the motion that a committee ought to be set up. I submit that that is no substitute for policy but only a trick or a device that is used by the Opposition. Obviously honourable members opposite regard it as a good device but it is only a device used to cover up a lack of policy. I suggest that it Would be more appropriate for a Party which holds itself out to be the alternative government of this country to sit down and do the hard work itself, devise a policy with some precision and bring it into this place, have it debated and not simply run away and suggest that a committee ought to be set up.

I will speak further on this matter because I think it is an important one and it is time that it was examined. The honourable member opposite who is looking at me now is a great advocate in this place for the setting up of numbers of committees. I think we have to face fairly and squarely the fact that there is a limit to the number of committees that can be set up. There is a limit to the time which honourable members can spend on committees. They have many other functions and I do not have to tell honourable members that. They have their electoral problems, they have to participate in the debates of this House and they have to write their speeches. Presumably they have to discuss policy - at least we on this side do -

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock:
LYNE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Order! The time allotted for precedence to general business has expired. The Minister for Supply will have leave to continue his speech when the debate is resumed. The resumption of the debate will be made an order of the day under general business for the next sitting.

Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m.

page 4410

NON-METROPOLITAN UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF

Ministerial Statement

Debate resumed from 2 December (vide page 4015), on the following paper presented by Mr McMahon:

Non-Metropolitan Unemployment Relief - Ministerial Statement, 2nd December 1971. and on motion by Mr Swartz:

That the House take note of the paper.

Mr GILES:
Angas

– It is with a very great element of delight- 1 will not say with an element of surprise - that 1 rise to support the motion. 1 support the Government very sincerely in its attitude to this problem of non-metropolitan unemployment and I. support the measures that the Government has taken to deal with the problem. I think it is probably true to say that we have grown unused to a rapid response to a quickly emerging situation by the huge monolithic, almost amorphous masses that modern day governments have become. It is to the credit of the Ministers and the Government that such rapid action has been taken in this field. The philosophy of the scheme has already been spelt out in a fine statement by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) to the Parliament. At the risk of being repetitious 1 wish to look briefly at the philosophy behind the scheme. It is true that its implication is a short term one. It aims to take immediate action to help correct a problem that is not part of the overall economy of the nation. It aims to fill a gap before such measures as rural reconstruction, rural retraining, marginal dairying measures and new wool policies emerge, and before any of these longer term and more fundamental schemes start to bite into the rural economy. So we are faced with a hiatus period in which problems exist in certain regional areas. The scheme attempts to deal with the newly emerging problem of those areas so defined.

The Government aims to take specific action on a specific problem that applies intensely to specific areas of the economy. It will aid in relieving general hardship that has occurred in provincial centres and areas where the unemployment rate is very much higher than it is in metropolitan areas. Let me expand on that a little. It is apparent to all honourable members who have journeyed from main capital city areas to provincial centres such as Bendigo, Ballarat, Newcastle, Murray Bridge or Renmark, that the squeeze on the rural industries, which has come aboutlargely because the failure of prices for agricultural commodities to rise on overseas market has rubbed off on the home markets. It is not only those on rural blocks in these important provincial areas who are feeling the pinch. It is for this sortof reason that, to a degree - and to a degree only - the Government has decided to pour in funds at the rate of $2m a month to these areas.

I think that the added importance of this scheme is that it is not only the farmers who are feeling the squeeze but it is also the main street traders - the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker - and all those who arein business in these provincial centres. The scheme probably would not be a good one if it aimed to perpetuate jobs and employment in areas over and above the potential of those areas inthe years to come. But it is proper that this investment in the education and training of people, and the expertise of people there, should not be lost tothose areas. It is very important that, to a level, the facilities that are offered in those centres today should continue and increase so that. in time to come, when economic circumstances may well have changed; those areas of Australia with clean air, with beauty, with trees and with good facilities will have the capacity to attract people from some of the overcrowded cities with their smog problems and their diseconomies of scale.

It is becoming more apparent now than ever, before that diseconomies of scale, such as 3-level highways running through Los Angeles, amount to the investment of an enormous sum per person. If we can provide facilities in regional areas and provincial cities it will be to the ultimate advantage of Australia. I am not saying that the Government should go overboard in promoting the use of taxpayers’ funds in areas that arc not economic. What I am saying is that this is one of a series of schemes fitting into a pattern that will hold out some hope to these areas in the future and will provide more liquidity for their main street shops and their facilities than they otherwise would have. It is worthy of note that this scheme introduced by the Government - it is a completely new piece of thinking - is limited in time to 30th June 1973. It is important that the House take note of this fact. It is limited to that time because we are not going to see or feel much benefit from rural reconstruction, rural retraining, marginal dairying measures or new wool policies for some time. It is right that, during the hiatus, the Government should firstly recognise that the problem exists and, secondly, do something about it.

Having discussed my idea of the practical philosophy behind the scheme let me now move on to the administration of it. Only yesterday the Federal Government completed itsdiscussions with the States on the administration of this scheme. I believe that certain facts are still undecided and need further clarification, but the Government has at this point of time tied in the major elements of this scheme with the States. Having nominally accepted the scheme the States now have to - in accordance with their function and their jurisdiction - draw up proper priorities for the use of the amount of taxpayers’ funds provided for this purpose. Nobody would doubt that the States have more local expertise to decide whether work should be done on a major bridge at one provincial centre or on a toilet block somewhere else. That is not the sort of priority that we in this Parliament should decide.It is proper that the State governments should look at this and give advice. So the position is quite clearly that the Commonwealth has made available taxpayers’ funds for this use, and now the States have to draw up proper priorities for the use of these funds.

It is to be hoped that most of this capital amount will go to local government authorities for their use in certain areas. I think it is worth mentioning in passing that local government authorities have already had quite a slice of taxpayers’ funds in the past from drought aid that has been made available I think the granting of funds for drought relief purposes in different States has been very valuable to the Government. First of all. the Government has learnt a lot of the pitfalls from the use of capital in this way. Secondly it has had a look to see what projects can be worth while and what are a waste of money when administered by local government authorities. I hope these lessons are learnt and I hope that perhaps some labour that is skilled rather than unskilled will be available to local government authorities now so that more worthwhile projects can be undertaken.

There is, I gather, some area of disagreement in the thinking of the Parliament in general as regards the proportion of these funds that should be used for particular purposes. The Prime Minister in his statement mentioned the fact that- preferably no more than 25 per cent of these funds should be used for equipment and like purposes. This assistance is similar to the drought aid given in the past; it is meant for labour intensive projects. I would say in passing that 1 would have though there could well be a need for more than 25 per cent of the funds to be expended on equipment, depending on what projects are undertaken. There are only 2 ways in which funds in addition to 25 per cent of what is provided by the Commonwealth can be found for equipment. Either the States find them or there will be a request to this Government to provide added expenditure for that purpose. I see no problem involved in this. I note the fact that the maximum amount of elasticity has been left, according to the Prime Minister’s statement, to. cope with just this sort of emergency. Although the sum of $2m a month has been mentioned in this statement, it will be adjustable from time to time according to the requirements of the situation.

I have figures to hand which give the proportion of unemployed State by State in metropolitan and non-metropolitan areas. One quick look at these figures shows quite clearly that New South Wales, with nearly 9,000 unemployed in the metropolitan area, has a far greater number of unemployed. 11,700, in non-metropolitan areas. Different patterns emerge State by State. The situation in South Australia is at the opposite extreme from the figures I have quoted. In South Australia 72 per cent of unemployed are in the metropolitan area and 27 per cent are in the country, which is markedly different from the New South Wales position. I would just say in passing that I believe the Government must look carefully at the reasons for these figures. Not the least of the reasons for these figures is that three-quarters of the population of South Australia lives in Adelaide. In addition, a satellite city such as Elizabeth tends to distort the overall picture. I believe that a special allowance will be made for these circumstances. It certainly should be. In New South Wales, for instance, cities such as Newcastle and Wollongong, which are virtually the size of Adelaide, in terms of the definition in this statement would be provincial centres. I believe on the one hand that we must look at the statistics and their importance, but on the other hand 1 believe there must obviously be some re-patterning of the disbursement of this capital sum in order to achieve some fairness of distribution.

May I. finish up my remarks by saying that I give very great credit to the Government for acting so promptly in a specific area of need where assistance is necessary. I cannot remember any other occasion on which such aid has been directed so unerringly to the area where it is necessary. I see this assistance as part of an overall pattern. Not only do I see this as part of the pattern of the economic circumstances of the country and the Government’s attempts to control inflation but also I see this as part of the pattern of the resurrection and the promoting of a more healthy rural atmosphere in years to come. It is an integral short term important part of this programme. I congratulate the Government and support it heavily in its ideas behind this scheme.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

– I move the following amendment to the motion that the House take note of the paper:

That the following words be added to the motion: aird urges the Government to initiate immediate discussions with the States so that the first grants under this programme can be made before Christmas and further urges the Government, at the some time, to confer with the Slates to ensure the resumption of the rural reconstruction scheme now halted by lack of finance in the various Slates. The House regrets that the Government has not made provision to extend unemployment assistance to alleviate problems of growing unemployment in metropolitan areas with particular emphasis on. the problems and placement of school leavers which can be accentuated as a result of poor employment conditions in the country areas’.

A week ago the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) announced in the Parliament a programme to make money available to the Slates for the relief of unemployment in non-metropolitan areas. The Prime Minister in announcing the grants made the point that much of this nonmetropolitan unemployment is of a structural kind. For this reason it required specific rather than general economic measures to deal with it. Undoubtedly, this is correct. Brit the Prime Minister ignored the fact that these pockets of structural unemployment feel in heightened form the impact of general economic measures to reduce demand across the board. This sort of structural unemployment does nol respond to broad economic stimulus. But it would be foolish to argue from this that these pockets of rural unemployment do not feel the impact of general economic measures to dampen the economy and reduce demand. The unfortunate people in rural areas are in the invidious position of feeling chill winds from both structural unemployment and the general reduction in economic activity. They are cushioned only against the beneficial effects of a revival in economic activity produced by broad economic policy. For this reason it is unfortunate that the Government should have delayed for so long in applying these grants.

The Prime Minister implied that structural unemployment in rural industries is a new phenomenon, that it has emerged in -dramatic form only since the last Budget and that the Government had acted swiftly to crush it. This interpretation just does not square with the facts. Unemployment of this sort has been a factor for several years. It is part of much broader social and economic changes in country areas which have occurred in the past 10 years. The scope of these basic changes is beyond this debate, but a majority of small country centres have been so affected that even a small change in the composition of the work force spreads hardship in the community. These changes may take the form of minor changes in the policy of a State Government or a commercial firm, for example a decision to concentrate staff at a larger centre. More sweeping changes may result from important switches in Commonwealth Government policy.

An example is the proposed reorganisation of postal services throughout the Commonwealth; this may involve the transfer of only a few personnel and families but it can have a serious impact on economic activity in a small community. These changes of the past few years have increased the difficulties caused by the structural changes in world markets and the Australian rural industries.

Now the general downturn in employment and economic activity flowing from deliberate budgetary policy have added to economic hardship in non-rural communities. lt is difficult to assess the full magnitude of this sort of unemployment because figures on the size of the work force !n rural centres are hard to get. The monthly statistics issued by the Department of Labour and National Service give the raw figures in important rural subdivisions for registered unemployed, registered vacancies and recipients of unemployment benefit, lt does not give any estimate of the size of the work force in these subdivisions. The latest work force figures available from the Department arc estimates made at the end of the 1969-70 financial year. It is possible from these to get an idea’ of unemployment in key rural centres. Using the September unemployment figures and these work force estimates, unemployment in Dubbo was 2.62 per cent, in Ballarat 2.29 per cent, in Bendigo 1.84 per cent, and Toowoomba 1.78 percent.

Admittedly these examples are somewhat crude but they do give an indication of how unemployment in major regional centres is considerably above the long term national average on which the Treasurer (Mr Snedden) relies. With this sort of structural unempoyment the first drift is to the major provincial centres. When unemployment builds up in these centres, as it clearly has in the 4 centres I have cited, the next drift is to the major cities. This adds to the pressures on employment in the metropolitan centres. For- this reason remedial action to curb structural unemployment in the country has the effect of alleviating unemployment and economic hardship in the cities. lt is not possible to divide unemployment into separate compartments as implied in the Prime Minister’s statement. This brings me to the first point contained in the amendment moved by the Opposition. It is designed to clear away the deliberate vagueness which the Government has encouraged ‘ about the time scale of this programme of grants. These grants cannot be regarded as a measure to stimulate economic activity in areas affected by structural unemployment. At best it is a relief measure in the form of a holding operation to prevent further deterioration in these areas. The money will go via the States to local government authorities for public works. The point that concerns the Opposition is the lapse of time before the impact of this spending is felt in the communities the grants have been designed to help.

The time scale outlined by the Prime Minister is extremely unsatisfactory. He said that the Government envisaged an arrangement providing for grants for employmen creating activities to be made to’ the States for the period up to 30th June 1973 subject to review after the end of the 1971-72 financial year. However, legislation for the grants will not be introduced until the autumn session of Parliament which begins on 22nd February. In the interim, temporary arrangements would be made for financing the scheme. It is the duty of the Government to spell out clearly this extremely vague : pledge of temporary financing. Does it mean that the Commonwealth will underwrite- advance grants made to the States? Alternatively, is it intended to divert some of the funds made available to the States for the rural reconstruction scheme to relief of rural unemployment? If either of these courses is intended by the Government, there has been no sign of action by any of the State governments to get the scheme going. The State Premiers are not to blame for this; presumably they are still waiting for the Commonwealth to elaborate on its proposals.

The overwhelming impression to be got from the way the Government has approached this relief measures is that it does not regard them as a matter of urgency. If the Government wanted to get legislation through the Parliament to get this scheme going before the end of the sesson it could have done so. It would have had the full co-operation of the Opposition in securing the passing of the enabling Bills through the Parliament. In marked contrast to the speed with which legislation to assist the wool industry was drafted and shepherded through the Parliament by the Government, there is a complete lack of urgency about getting this scheme to work. Unless there is evidence of a much greater will on the part of the Government to get the States moving, it will be months before any benefit is felt from these relief grants. At the earliest, legislation to authorise, the grants to the States will not clear the Parliament until March.

By the time unemployment in rural areas is assessed by the States and the grants transmitted to local government bodies, it will be near the end of the financial year. On the time scale indicated by the Prime Minister, it will be at least 6 months before this so called emergency assistance is transmitted to areas of need. The programme will then be subject to the review referred to in the Prime Minister’s statement* This is hardly evidence of swift, decisive and humane action to bolster communities afflicted by rural unemployment.’ For this reason the Opposition has moved that the House urges on the. Government the importance of getting down with the States to the task of assessing structural unemployment, selecting the areas of greatest, need and getting the first grants out before the end of the year. Unless this is done this relief scheme .will have no impact whatsoever on the crucial January and February period when ‘…… of thousands of school leavers will be looking for jobs. All school leavers will be feeling the crunch of a tighter economy. The plight of country children leaving school will be particularly acute because of the structural unemployment outlined in the Prime Minister’s statement.

In summary, millions of dollars have been made available in recent months to assist the wool industry. The honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson) has made the point repeatedly that most of this assistance is not going to the country areas where its need is most vital. Far too much of this assistance has gone back to the finance companies and pastoral companies in the cities. Assistance has gone to wealthy graziers at the expense of the small growers who are in greatest need. But assistance by the Government in this form was promptly accepted and translated rapidly into effective action. When a measure is introduced to provide employment for rural workers caught through no fault of their own in the massive restructuring of the rural industries and the rural community, the Government’s response is contemptibly lethargic.

There are 2 other points in the Opposition’s amendment which 1 want to refer to briefly before they are treated in greater detail by my colleagues. The first is the need for consultations with the States on getting the rural reconstruction scheme into effective operation. Honourable members will recall that under this scheme $10Om was to be allocated to the States over 4 years for rural reconstruction. This assistance was allocated for debt reconstruction, for building up farms into economic holdings, and for rehabilitation of those forced off the land. It is not possible to assess the overall impact of the scheme because of the time lag between approval of reconstruction plans and the spending of assistance provided. Quite obviously there are difficulties between the Commonwealth, and the States in the implementation of the scheme. There are difficulties in the interest rates applied by the Commonwealth; the rate for farm build-up is 6i per cent compared with 4 per cent for debt reconstruction. This means that debt reconstruction is much more attractive and is favoured by rural producers.

However, the Commonwealth wants an approximately equal allocation of funds between debt reconstruction and farm build-up. Applications from farmers have shown that this is not feasible and that most want debt reconstruction assistance. For example, only 9 per cent of applications for assistance under the scheme in Victoria and New South Wales have been for farm build-up. Because of Commonwealth policy these States have had to reject many applicants seeking debt reconstruction assistance. These are matters which must be sorted out between the Commonwealth and the States so full benefit is derived from these rural reconstruction measures. Under the terms of the Act a review of the scheme is to take place in time to allow any changes to be brought into operation by 1st July 1972. This review should be undertaken immediately to allow funds allocated for farm build-up to be redirected towards debt reconstruction in accordance with the relative demands for these 2 types of assistance.

The final point which I earlier referred to indirectly was the growth of unemployment in metropolitan areas. This is relevant to the Prime Minister’s statement because metropolitan and non-metropolitan unemployment cannot be separated into 2 distinct spheres. There is a constant process of movement of labour between the two. Many workers will .not linger in depressed rural areas if they see any chance of getting a job in the city. The creation of extra employment in the country must ease the strains on the labour market in the cities. Growing unemployment in the cities is a problem which has not been recognised by the Government. On the evidence of those receiving unemployment benefit, basic unemployment is increasing much faster in the cities than in the country. These statistics are important because they indicate the gut element of unemployment which is not reflected in these figures.

Registration of unemployed and job vacancies gives a measure of the buoyancy or otherwise of the labour market. The numbers getting unemployment benefits indicates the extent of economic hardship flowing from a tight labour market. If the numbers drawing the benefit are compared, it becomes clear that in all States except South Australia and Tasmania, metroplitan unemployment is rising much faster than non-metropolitan unemployment.

Looking at these figures for the end of October 1971 and comparing them with the end of October 1970, in New South Wales those on benefits increased by 115 per cent in metropolitan areas and 53 per cent in non-metropolitan areas. In Victoria the increases were 185 per cent and 101 per cent; in Queensland 93 per cent and minus 1 per cent; and in Western Australia 242 per cent and 92 per cent. This shows quite dramatically that hard-core unemployment is rising much more rapidly in the major cities than in the country. In Tasmania the increase is much the same for metropolitan and non-metropolitan areas at 153 per cent and 160 per cent. In South Australia, the increase is the lowest in Australia for metropolitan areas; it is 33 per cent compared with 91 per cent for non-metropolitan areas.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! The honourable member’s time has expired. Is the amendment seconded?

Mr Grassby:

– I second the amendment and reserve my right to speak.

Mr TURNBULL:
Mallee

– The

Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) made a statement in this House on 2nd December relating to relief for non-metropolitan unemployment. At the end of his statement he said:

Designed as it is to meet the emerging social and economic problem of unemployment in nonmetropolitan areas, the scheme will I believe be warmly welcomed by the House and by the community at large.

I support those remarks because this proposal has been warmly welcomed in rural areas. Anyone with a national outlook will give a warm reception to a proposal such as this which will give assistance to rural people. I believe that honourable members should not clutter up the consideration of this matter by speaking about unemployment in metropolitan areas. Yet this is exacily what the Opposition is doing; this is exactly what the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) is doing. The amendment to the motion ‘That the House take note of the paper’ commences with the words:

That the following words be added to the motion: and urges the Government to initiate immediate discussions with the States. . . .

How far is he out of touch with what goes on in this country?

Mr Lloyd:

– Hopelessly.

Mr TURNBULL:

– -He is hopelessly out of touch. Every time the Government brings something forward a member of the Labor Party nearly always moves that all words after ‘that’ in the motion ‘That the House take note of the paper’ be omitted and that certain words be inserted in their place. It does not matter what the Government puts up, although members of the Labor Party had not thought of a proposal before, they think it should be improved. Legislation which was introduced to enable the Commonwealth to make grants for homes for the aged is a perfect example of what I am saying. No Labor government has ever thought of giving grants of a £1 for £1 or a dollar for dollar basis, or a $2 for $1 basis as it is now, for homes for the aged. But the moment the Government introduced the scheme Labor wanted the grants to be increased and increased. If the Labor Party had been in power it would not have thought of this scheme.

I would like to show bow far the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is out of touch with his amendment. The fact of the matter is that the meeting of Commonwealth and Stale officials proposed in the Prime Ministers statement was requested by letters to the Premiers on 1st December, the day before the Prime Minister made the statement. This meeting was held in Canberra yesterday. However, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in his amendment is advocating such a meeting. 1 repeat that the meeting was held yesterday and decided to take certain action. The States are willing, I understand, to cooperate to the fullest extent in regard to using the money that has been made available to overcome, as much as possible, unemployment in rural areas. It is a strange thing that a man who is the Deputy Leader of an Opposition does not keep up to date with events and know what is happening. I put it very definitely that members of the Australian Country Party and the Liberal Party - perhaps I should say the coalition Government in order to include both Parties - are delighted with the statement. Honourable members who sit behind me and other honourable members who represent rural areas are delighted because, after all, no Country Party man in a State Parliament or the Federal Parliament represents a city or metropolitan constituency. We all represent rural constituencies. Therefore, this statement has been welcomed very warmly indeed. I hope that it will give the best possible deal to people who are unemployed in country areas.

The measures outlined in the statement will help to alleviate unemployment in city areas because if we can stop country workers going to the cities there will be more jobs for those people who love to live in the cities. Many people are attracted to the cities by the bright lights. I know of many people who are attracted to cities because of the better amenities offered by them. Many a man in the country says that he has to get work for his boys and girls somewhere and that be will go to a city because of the greater opportunities offered there. Most cities are what we call spoon fed and the country has had to battle for itself over many many years.

The Labor Party immediately finds fault with any little thing like this that is done for people in country areas. Members of the Opposition cast suspicion on such a proposal. They ask when the country areas will get the money. At the discussion held yesterday to which I have referred, and which evidently was not known to members of the Opposition and definitely was not known to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the position was set out and clarified and generally speaking it is likely that the scheme will be operating at a very early date. As a matter of fact, the scheme could be in operation before Christmas. It is possible that some money will be made available before then, I suggest especially through local government.

It has been said that nothing will be done until the end of the financial year. What greater thing could one do to try to damn the whole scheme than to make this sort of statement? It is just ridiculous when an honourable member comes into the House and makes such statements about this great country that has depended so much in the past on its rural development and its rural products. The secondary industries buy their raw materials with money chiefly derived from the sale of primary products overseas. I refer here to our exports of wheat, wool, dried fruit and other primary products of the soil that build up our balance of payments and our overseas reserves. This money comes back in the form of goods and raw materials without which secondary industry could not operate successfully. Therefore the Government has shown a national outlook in bringing a statement like this forward for the good of the whole community. After all. Australia is still so very, very dependent on its primary industries.

I want to say something about how this money is to be spent. We should be able to spend it to a dual advantage. Firstly, 1 think that the money should be used to relieve unemployment. To be unemployed is one of the most distressing things that can happen to a man, especially if he has a family. Therefore, under this measure we should be able to give him some relief and some employment. But I believe it would be desirable if we could employ him in such a way that a dual advantage can be gained. For instance, men could be employed in building up tourist facilities and for local government projects. This money should be used as much as possible, where appropriate, on the pipelining of water. 1 have said often in this House that in the electorate of Mallee, which I represent, more than 90 per cent of the water which goes from the reservoirs or the water storages to the consumers is lost through seepage and evaporation and, therefore, pipelining must come. It will come sooner or later. If water is pipelined from all our reservoirs it would be equal to duplicating the reservoirs.

I have said many times that the priorities that I have proposed should be accepted. The first priority is defence; because what is the good of having anything in this country - a democratic government or parliament - if it cannot be protected? The second priority which I put forward is primary industry with which is associated water conservation in many cases. These are the definitive priorities that I. have suggested, but as soon as I have done so, someone has called out: What about education, social services, hospitalisation and all these benefits?’ It is from the products of the soil that much of the money comes from with which these things can be purchased and from which the Government can give people who are unable to fend for themselves a better deal. Therefore. I believe that the priorities I have put forward are in the best interests of this nation. The pipelining of water is a definite proposition for attention.

Mr Cope:

– Do you think-

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! Please do not interrupt the honourable member who is speaking.

Mr Cope:

– He is inspiring me, Mr Speaker.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member will not interfere with the honourable member for Mallee who is speaking from his place.

Mr Grassby:

– He is already out of order. He has not debated the amendment yet.

Mr TURNBULL:

- Mr Speaker, I shall just wait until things calm down a little.

Mr Grassby:

– He is out of order.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I understand that the honourable member for Riverina is to speak in this debate. I suggest that if he wants the protection of the Chair, he act in a more dignified way to other honourable members.

Mr TURNBULL:

– I do not want to be unduly harsh on the honourable member for Riverina but this statement has sent him into a kind of a whirl because he knows very well that it will be well accepted in the Riverina where he has long been forecasting doom despite the assistance provided by this Government.

Mr Grassby:

– Humbug!

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! I warn the honourable member for Riverina.

Mr Kennedy:

– He is not speaking to the amendment.

Mr SPEAKER:

-The honourable member for Bendigo will remain silent and he will sit in bis seat and not on the arms of the benches.

Mr TURNBULL:

– lt is a strange thing that whenever I start to speak and attempt to advocate things for the country districts that I admire so much I am interrupted by the honourable members for Bendigo (Mr Kennedy), Sydney (Mr Cope) who is sitting in front of me, or Riverina (Mr Grassby). Honourable members can see how they are sitting here like hawks.

Mr Grassby:

Mr Speaker, I take a point of order. I have been very patient but 1 draw your attention to the fact that the amendment before this chamber deals with the need to initiate immediate discussions with the States on unemployment grants. I have been listening for some time to a dissertation of the underground water supply.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member will tell me his point of order without debating it.

Mr Grassby:

– With due respect, Mr Speaker, I put it to you that the honourable member for Mallee has not referred to the amendment before the Chair for some considerable time and I suggest that he be called back to the substantive amendment before the Chair.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member should refresh his- memory of the Standing Orders. The matters before the Chair are the motion and the amendment.

Mr TURNBULL:

– The honourable member suggests that for some considerable time 1 have not referred to the amendment. I have been speaking for only 10 minutes.

Mr SPEAKER:

-The honourable member would be quite in order in not referring to the amendment.

Mr TURNBULL:

– But 1 have referred to it. I have pointed out that the meeting between the States and the Commonwealth that is sought by the amendment took place yesterday. Surely the honourable member for Riverina remembers me saying that. Therefore, the amendment is out of order; it is too late; the point is over because the meeting has taken place. It was decided at that meeting to do certain things in the best possible interests of this country. I believe that the proposals outlined in the statement will give great succour to the people in the country and will provide employment. I know that big machinery has caused a lot of unemployment in the past in rural areas because not so many people are required. But our country towns are rural . areas. In those towns, of course, conditions have not been very good and I believe that money spent in the right direction in country towns will assist considerably in the general outlook. I heard recently of a man who was talking about how much he liked the country. He lived in the city and someone asked him: Why do you not live in the country?’ He said: ‘I am living in the city so that I can make enough money for when I retire to enable me to live in the country’. This is the whole problem; the economic conditions are so much better in the cities. But I think it was Henry Lawson who said:

There is Huie real pleasure in the city where I am -

There’s a swarry round the corner with its mockery and its sham;

  1. think it would do people good to get out into the country. If we can build up our primary industries and the nation we will bc able to purchase many things. I mention in passing a factor that can help the country areas. What could help the country most is related to a question I asked this morning, namely, that when a redistribution of Federal electorates is proposed the 20 per cent over or 20 per cent under of the quota be implemented. After all, someone said that it does not matter how big an electorate is; it is what the people do in it. Mr Speaker, you, perhaps better than anyone, would know that nothing counts much but votes. A person can advocate anything he likes but it is the vote that determines a matter. My friend the honourable member for Hunter (Mr Tames) would agree with that.
Mr James:

– I am not a numbers man, but I agree with that.

Mr TURNBULL:

– The honourable member agrees with that because it is the vote that counts. It is the vote that first of all puts a man into Parliament and afterwards, when he gets into Parliament, he soon finds out that the vote determines whether he will get something implemented. In his statement, the Prime Minister said:

I may mention also that we would envisage the Department of Labour and National Service being closely associated with the scheme at the ground roots level.

Of course, in this regard, before this statement was made, Mr Allen, who is the head of the Department of Labour and National Service, said that he envisaged that there would not be much trouble in the employment of school leavers this year. He said that the position was well in hand and he believed that there would be no disruption of employment to any extent. This whole subject calls for great cooperation. We have had the Prime Minister’s statement and yesterday there was a meeting of State and Commonwealth representatives in regard to it. But, the harsh note that comes into this is that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) did not know about yesterday’s meeting.

Mr Grassby:

– You did not tell him.

Mr TURNBULL:

– The honourable member for Riverina says that I did not tell him. I am not in the habit of going around telling him things he should know. He should find out. He is the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! The honourable member’s time has expired.

Mr GRASSBY:
Riverina

– I rise to support the amendment that is before the House of Representatives. Of course, anyone listening to the honourable member for Mallee (Mr Turnbull) would be forgiven for forgetting exactly what we are debating because he debated everything but the issue that is before the Parliament at this time.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! I hope that because I corrected the honourable member for Riverina in one of his errors, he is not reflecting on the Chair.

Mr GRASSBY:

– No, Mr Speaker. I understand that the obstruseness of some members is difficult to follow. I would not in any way reflect upon the Chair at any time. The amendment, of course, is designed to do one particular thing, namely, to ensure that there is some effective action before the Christmas period. This is the whole intent of this amendment. The Commonwealth Parliament has no business going into recess for2½ months unless there is a definite assurance of action to stimulate the rural economy before Christmas. I am unimpressed with the dedication of the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) to this matter because, although it is his statement we are debating, we have not seen him. Indeed, for the most of this debate there has been one sole survivor of the Liberal Party ministry in the chamber and the most junior Minister, with due respect to my distinguished friend at the table, the Minister for Supply, Mr Garland. Even he was missing from the chamber for most of the time that the honourable member for Mallee was speaking. I do not blame him for that at all. I am pointing out that very little weight is being given to this matter of getting some action in the countryside before Christmas. There have been many interjections which I am quite interested to hear from the members on my left who comprise an interesting tribal rock musical and who say in chorus that there are no problems which are not being tackled and not being taken care of. I do not see it this way, and neither does the Deputy Leader of the Opposition or any other member of the Opposition.

Last week in this House the Prime Minister and his team debated a motion that was designed to deal with the economy. We were assured for most of that day that there were no real problems with the economy; that there was nothing which was not being attended to or taken care of. We had question time 2 hours before the Prime Minister came into this chamber to make a statement on rural unemployment. In answer to a question at question time the Treasurer (Mr Snedden) indicated that there were no real worries and no real indication of any action being necessary. In fact, he specifically indicated that no action would be taken. But 2 hours later the Prime Minister sneaked in, unheralded and unannounced after the suspension of the sitting for lunch, and made a statement which, of course, was welcome, provided that it achieves something. But let us also be clear that all it really does is to provide some finance at some time in the future - perhaps in the new year - which will give jobs to one in four people who are employed in the country areas. That is all. If honourable members on my left are happy and content with that, then I wish them well when they go home for Christmas. When the statement, was made by the Prime Minister, I immediately sought an assurance that this House would not go into recess without debating the statement. I made it plain that my attitude on leaving the question of unemployment grants as unfinished business until next year was totally unacceptable to me and the colleagues with whom I sit on this side of the chamber. I might say that the only response we received was that perhaps arrangements might be made to debate the statement. So the motion, or the actual amendment, to be more precise, Mr Speaker - and I am always grateful for your guidance - that we are discussing today is the amendment which has come forward from the Opposition.

Mr SPEAKER:

– For the benefit of the honourable member, might I put the position in the right perspective? We are now discussing the amendment and the motion together.

Mr GRASSBY:

– Yes. Of course, Mr Speaker, you are exactly correct. I was referring particularly to the motion. When we come to discuss the motion and the amendment together, let us be quite clear that if it had not been for the demands of members of the Opposition this matter would not have come before the House at all before we adjourned. I want to draw attention to the realities of the situation as they exist at the present time. The Premier of New South Wales has been insistent that there should be a conference before Christmas - -before the Commonwealth Parliament adjourns and before the State parliaments adjourn - because he has said that in fact there is an urgent need for finance to relieve unemployment in New South Wales rural areas. He made that statement after the wheat crop virtually had failed. He made it as a plea, and he has not apologised for doing so. In this instance .the Premier of New South Wales had the unanimous support of the New South Wales Legislative Asembly - all members of all Parties; the Liberal Party, the Country Party and the Australian Labor Party. So it is an indisputable fact that they are concerned but, of course, honourable members on the Government side in this Parliament do not seem to be concerned at all. The Premier of New South Wales has indicated that there is an urgent need for this sort of action.

Let us just see what the Prime Minister said in his statement. He indicated that in co-operation with the State governments the Commonwealth already had provided massive assistance. Every State government in the Commonwealth has contested the Prime Minister’s assessment of the situation. Every Minister in charge of rural reconstruction already has decided that the rural reconstruction scheme is in a hopeless situation and has halted. They have said that we need an urgent conference to get it going again. Do not forget that what we are referring to is rural unemployment. We are referring to a rural situation which is real. Honourable members opposite say that all that the members of the Opposition in the Federal Parliament are doing is drawing attention to difficulties. The difficulties have already been drawn to their attention without success at the present time, by every State government and by all the Ministers responsible for rural reconstruction, but all that honourable members opposite have said is: ‘You are wrong and only we are right.’ What an incredible situation.

Let us refer to the Prime Minister’s statement and to what prompted us to move this amendment. This is what the Prime Minister said:

On the assumption that these proposals will be acceptable in principle to the Premiers we shall require to bring forward to the House early, in tho autumn session legislation to authorise the necessary grants to the States. Meanwhile, however, temporary arrangements will be made for the financing of the scheme in the interim.

There is no undertaking as to what is to be done before the end of the year, before Christmas, and of course we are dealing with people and families who are suffering hardship. Those are not abstractions. This is not a sordid political party ploy. We are dealing with the realities of hardship and difficulty at the present time. The majority of the Premiers have called for action before Christmas. The Ministers in charge of rural reconstruction met in Melbourne. It is of interest to note that the Victorian Minister for Lands, Mr Borthwick, complained bitterly about the inflexibility of the rural reconstruction scheme and the difficulties associated with it. This was said. It is not suggested that the Government of Sir Henry Bolte is a radical Labor administration. The Victorian Government is complaining because even it concedes that there are really serious hardships at the present time. I have referred already to the position in New South Wales. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has spoken of the difficulties in Tasmania. In every State of the Commonwealth we have these problems, and of course they stem from the rural crisis.

The interesting thing is that not only the Premiers and the Ministers in charge of rural reconstruction but also some of the really enthusiastic long term supporters of the Government are concerned about this matter. Let me quote what was said by Sir Norman Giles, who is head of the Elder Smith Goldsbrough Mort complex. He is a long time supporter of the present administration. He said that the rural reconstruction scheme is becoming ‘a dangerous flop’. The situation is that we face this crisis of confidence and collateral which the Prime Minister has done very little to dissipate. Let us also be clear that not only did he promise us some pie, inadequate pie, in the new year - only enough finance to provide jobs for one in four of the unemployed people in rural areas, and no date as to when the assistance will be provided has been given to this Parliament - but he also appeared on national television on Monday night of this week and announced and unveiled his plan for the future of the countryside. It should be mentioned today that the Prime Minister is going to move up to 14,000 wool growers which, of course, means that, including their families, 40,000 people will be affected. On the ratio of 1 to 4 in terms of producers to the people who serve them and support them in country areas, the number of people affected will approach 100,000. This is the number which the Prime Minister of this nation has decided should move out of rural areas. As a matter of fact, I put on the notice paper today a question in which I asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to move these people out in special refugee trains. I asked him, in particular, not to use sheep trucks because this would be adding insult to injury. I asked him whether he is going to set up refugee camps in the capital cities, because do not forget that all he has offered is a loan of $1,000, on terms to be determined, for those wool growers who have to go. This is the programme which the Prime Mini*ter unveiled last Monday night. If honourable members opposite like it, I say to them: ‘You wear it’. But as far as we are concerned, we reject the Prime Minister and his philosophy.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– It is too little too late.

Mr GRASSBY:

– Of course, that is a compliment to the Prime Minister. He has not yet arrived. The next thing I must say is that we are talking of a crisis which is worse than it has been since the depression days.

Mr O’Keefe:

– Oh!

Mr GRASSBY:

– The honourable member for Paterson indicates that there are no difficulties in his electorate. By way of example let me refer to the city of Wagga Wagga. The total number of people registered as being unemployed in Wagga Wagga at the present time is 638. This is the highest figure in New South Wales, and I might say that it is the highest in 2 generations. I must also say to honourable members opposite who do not seem to go home very often that in many areas of New South Wales, in particular, there are no offices of the Department of Labour and National Service at which one can register as being unemployed. There are no offices at all between the Mumimbidgee and the Murray. So the unemployment figures have been underestimated quite dramatically. We have a situation where, at the end of this day, we are being asked to go home to our various electorates which have been in more trouble than for 2 generations as a result of this Government’s policies and say to our electors that the Parliament was a bit too busy. The Prime Minister could not enter into the debate. He is not here. He has been missing. I do not know where he is. But certainly as this is his statement he should be here.

Mr Giles:

– He does not . have to tell you.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– He is counting his money.

Mr GRASSBY:

– Perhaps he is. I am sure that the right honourable gentleman will have a pleasant Christmas at home with his family, though he is only temporarily employed. I think that this is a very poor expression of the concern of the national Parliament. It shows that we at this time have little regard for this problem that is a real and harsh one. It seems to me that we live in a world of unreality. Supporters of the Government deny that any of these real problems exist and say that there is no reason why we should express our concern. I would have been ashamed to go home not having expressed my concern and not having asked for some action to be initiated before Christmas and before the end of the year. We will not meet until 22nd February of next year. But the unemployment-

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– A wicked shame.

Mr GRASSBY:

– My distinguished colleague says: ‘A wicked shame.’ That is right. The people who will be unemployed will be saying just that. We are to be left suspended for 2b months. We have had soothing tones from the Government as to what may or may not be done. But we have had no assurance

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Why do we not have 3 weeks holiday, the same as the workers get?

Mr GRASSBY:

– I and my colleagues would be happy to sit the whole of next week to find out exactly what is intended, what we intend to do and what the plans are. Let us discuss them again. During the last 24 months, I have listened to some unholy rubbish debated over a long period in this Parliament. It was rubbish that is irrelevant to the realities of our national situation and the situation in our electorates. I resent the fact that tuy time was wasted. I resent the fact that we have not tackled the Teal problems of our community as they exist at the present time. The problem of the unemployed is not a passing one. The problem is not one that we can laugh at, joke about or pass off with little smart comments about what we may have done or we may not have done. I may say that this amendment was not introduced in a sense of carping criticism of the Government-

Mr Foster:

– It should have been. The Government should be kicked out for what it has done.

Mr GRASSBY:

– My honourable friend from Sturt is a very blunt and forthright member. This is what he has said to me personally: ‘I regard this proposal as totally inadequate. I do not stand with it at all’. What. I say to him is this: We have accepted it. He has accepted it. We have accepted it as a gesture. In conclusion, I say this-

Mr Turnbull:

– 1 take a point of order. Mr GRASSBY- The Prime Minister

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Scholes:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– Order! A point of order has been taken.

Mr GRASSBY:

– The Prime Minister is-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member will resume his seat.

Mr GRASSBY:

– He is only taking up my time, and you know it. He ought to be ashamed of himself.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I will hear the honourable member for Mallee.

Mr Turnbull:

– My point of order is that what the amendment referred to by the honourable member for Riverina states and what he is complaining about and is saying should happen did happen yesterday. A meeting was held.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! That is not a basis on which to raise a point of order. The honourable member for Mallee has been here long enough to know that. I consider that his action was a deliberate attempt to run out the time of the honourable member for Riverina. It was totally irresponsible. - Mr GRASSBY- Mr Deputy Speaker–

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr GRASSBY:

– I repeat what I said-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:
Mr GRASSBY:

– The Prime Minister-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Riverina will resume his seat. The honourable member’s time has expired.

Mr LLOYD:
Murray

– .1 congratulate the honourable member for Mallee (Mr Turnbull) for the charity that he has shown in putting up for as long as he did with the speech of the honourable member for Riverina (Mr Grassby). While the honourable member for Mallee was speaking the honourable member for Riverina took several spurious points of order as to whether the honourable member was debating the motion or the amendment. I fail to remember any real point in the speech of the honourable member for Riverina that was on this subject at all. His speech certainly had nothing to do with the motion or the statement delivered by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) which is what we are really debating. It would appear to me that Opposition members are acting like a Jot of spoilt children who have just had their ice creams taken away from them. This subject was to be their calamity howler when they returned home at Christmas time, so that they could really spread the muck around the country areas.

Mr Grassby:

-That is disgraceful.

Mr Foster:

– Whom do you represent?

Mr LLOYD:

– The Prime Minister came in and made this statement-

Mr Grassby:

– You are a disgrace.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:
Mr Grassby:

– You ought to go home.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:
Mr Foster:

– -Is he speaking about the amendment?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Sturt will remain silent. If honourable members do not treat this House with the respect to which it is entitled, I will be forced to take action.

Mr Grassby:

– He does not.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr LLOYD:

– The Prime Minister came in and presented this most welcome and timely announcement which has been very well received right throughout Australia and has taken from Opposition members their opportunity to create this nice little calamity situation. We have all heard the term ‘Calamity Jane’. I could suggest an alternative, but I will not, with respect to the way in which the honourable member for Riverina spoke this afternoon. It would appear, if we listened -to honourable members opposite, that somehow or other they initiated this action. They have had nothing to do with it. The Prime Minister presented this statement. The debate this afternoon is a result of definite Government policy. To show how ill prepared Opposition members are really to grapple with this situation, one has only to listen to the absurd statements that have been made and that have nothing to do with the ministerial statement and the motion. The amendment certainly has nothing to do with the situation.

I wish now to look in detail at some of the points mentioned in the amendment moved by the Australian Labor Party, which is supposed to have some knowledge of the situation. The amendment: . . urges the Government to initiate immediate discussions with the States so that the first grants under this programme can be made before Christmas. …

Do not members of the Opposition read their newspapers? Cannot what they are told sink into their heads? They have been told several times that the discussions on this matter were held yesterday. Representatives of each of the States were here yesterday to discuss this situation. I understand that the Prime Minister has written to each State Premier setting out definitely ways in which this programme can bc commenced before Christmas. No need exists for any legislative machinery to lie established before this programme can commence.

Anyone who reads in detail the statement which has been made by the Prime Minister will see that the programme and the whole system used in respect of drought relief measures throughout the States some years ago will be followed here. The same principles and procedure will be adopted. One has only to look at the procedures that were used during that drought relief programme to see how the present programme can be initiated and commenced immediately. For example this means that in Victoria an interdepartmental committee will co-ordinate these grants and work out which local government, which State government and which semigovernment authorities can spend this money in the most useful way in the areas where it is most needed. This work can be commenced immediately.

Mr Grassby:

– Before Christmas?

Mr LLOYD:

– That is up to the States. The Commonwealth has the whole scheme under way now. There is no reason why, from the Commonwealth’s point of view, this programme cannot commence before Christmas. There is no need to wait for any legislation to be introduced in February. If Opposition members only bothered to read the Prime Minister’s statement, the newspapers and the reports of the procedures to be followed, this amendment would have been unnecessary.

In another part, the amendment urges the Government to: . . confer with the Stales to ensure she resumption of the rural reconstruction scheme now hailed by lack of finance in the various Slates.

This part of the amendment is most curious. In speaking to this amendment, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) gave the reasons why it is alleged that not sufficient finance has been provided under the rural reconstruction scheme for the debt reconstruction programme. Yet. a week ago, when the Bill providing for the loan of S30m to the Australian Wool Commission was being debated, the proposal was criticised by the Opposition for the same reason that it has now incorporated in its amendment to support its case. The money that is being provided through the Australian Wool Commission will alleviate the need for much of the debt reconstruction programme. Surely it is better to alleviate the problems so that huge amounts of funds are not spent on debt reconstruction. This has been done in rural areas through the buying policy of the Australian Wool Commission and the wool deficiency payments scheme. Payments which would have been necessary under the debt reconstruction scheme have been avoided. Last week the Labor Party in criticising this Government initiative for the wool growers said that-

Mr Grassby:

– The money will go to the brokers.

Mr LLOYD:

– That is right. The Opposition argues that some of the money will go to the brokers, that it will not stay in the electorates. Now, I make 2 points on this argument: What difference is there between that proposal and the Opposition’s amendment which seeks more money for debt reconstruction? If a debt is to be reconstructed, somebody has to be paid off. That ‘somebody’ is still the same bodies - the banks and the finance companies - that the Opposition criticised one week ago. If one is at all close to the country people and the problem of debt reconstruction one may bc aware of the fact that if we can lower the level of debt payments made by a farmer, whether in respect of wool or in any other way, we will be helping him because a lesser percentage of his net income will be required to service his debts.

When Opposition members were offering criticism and making their point about rural reconstruction they were talking about the farmers. Surely the whole purpose of this grant of $2m a month, approximately, is not to help the farming people alone but to help all people in rural areas, cities and towns who may have been affected by the rural crisis because of the drop in purchasing power of farming people. Yet the Labor Party criticised several times the rural reconstruction scheme because it is for farmers only. Here we have something which is for people other than farmers and all they can do is turn around, reverse their tired old argument and say it is wrong because it is for people other than farmers. The Opposition has also mentioned that it would do this and do that. If the Opposition had its way it would cut off these grants designed to assist the many people who work in country cities and towns.

Mr Kennedy:

– What rubbish.

Mr LLOYD:

– The honourable member for Bendigo (Mr Kennedy) should read his Party’s amendment. It is clear that the Opposition wants to give all the assistance to the farming community. We on this side of the House reprepresent all rural people.

It has also been stated that this money is not enough. If honourable members opposite read the Prime Minister’s statement they will see that it is an approximate amount. It is flexible and it can be increased if necessary. If the Government listened toall the statements of the Labor Party that not enough money has been provided for certain projects, and if it were to finance what the Opposition said it would do, the biggest industry in this country would be the money printing industry because of all that would be needed to finance the Opposition’s schemes. Honourable members want to look at these matters a little more objectively, decide on their priorities and how they would implement their proposals. It has also been suggested that the allocation of 75 per cent of this money to labour costs and 25 per cent for materials is wrong. This is the same arrangement that was adopted for the drought relief programmes which have proved most successful.

If we are to employ people we have to employ them gainfully so that what they do is worthwhile, not only for them but also for the community. And, of course, we will need materials. If the States believe that 75 per cent of the grant is not sufficient to meet the labour costs it is open to the States to provide the materials and to allocate 100 per cent of the funds to the employment of labour. But there is another factor here. It has been stated that this grant will not cover the employment of everybody in the country who is unemployed. This is agreed but the point is that the amount is flexible and can be increased. One of the things needed in country cities and towns and business areas is a boost of confidence and this grant provides just the boost of confidence that is needed.

Mr Martin:

– The only way to boost confidence is to change the Government.

Mr LLOYD:

– The people of Australia have shown for 22 years that they do not share your point of view. The Opposition’s amendment states that we should be looking also to provide employment assistance in metropolitan areas. This -would mean that there would be less of the $2m a month for the benefit of the people in rural areas. We have 2 types of unemployment; we have metropolitan unemployment which is certainly growing much more rap idly now, but it is not of the same nature orproportion as it is in rural areas where there is large long-term hard-core unemployment brought about by the structural changes in the rural community which have been caused by the crisis in rural industries. In New South Wales the October unemployment figures show that 43 per cent of those registered as unemployed were in metropolitan areas and 56 per cent were in country areas. There is an even more startling figure in Queensland where 35 per cent of unemployed are in metropolitan areas and 64 per cent in nonmetropolitan areas. I think honourable members would find that the number of job vacancies is 3 times as high in the metropolitan areas as it is in the nonmetropolitan areas. This grant of $2m a month will give a much needed shot in the arm to employment and confidence in country cities and towns. It is a step in the right direction which has been initiated by the Government, and the Opposition has had nothing to do with it at all. It will do many good things.

I would like to make a few points in conclusion. If we are to continue to spur employment in non-metropolitan areas we need a lead at Commonwealth level in the provision of more long-term and definite proposals to assist decentralisation, regional development or whatever we like to call it. The last thing we want is another committee. We have had committees dealing with these matters for 7 years and we have all the knowledge we need on the question of what is required to spur, with incentives, manufacturing and other industry in country towns. I urge the Government to continue with this good work that it has started so that we will have very soon a policy from the Government that will provide real incentives, real initiatives and real longterm proposals to assist regional development. This would be to the benefit of both those who live in urban Australia and those who live in non-urban Australia about whom we are now talking:

Dr GUN:
Kingston

– I enter this debate to discuss the last sentence in the Opposition’s amendment. It reads:

The House regrets that the Government has not made provision to extend unemployment assistance to alleviate problems of growing unemployment in metropolitan areas with particular emphasis on the problems and placement of school leavers which can be accentuated as a result of poor employment conditions in the country areas. 1 am particularly concerned that the present measure, which admittedly is better than many of its type,, is based on an inaccurate diagnosis. The treatment is wrong, it is inadequate and the funds will be inappropriately applied. I would like to see a comprehensive programme extending over the whole economy because the problem in cities is a very great one, not just in terms of straight-out unemployment but in terms of under-employment. This is a particular problem in my electorate and in many electorates within the Adelaide metropolitan area where tradesmen in the motor vehicle industry and subsidiary industries have been retrenched. Many of them have got jobs back but they are now on the production line, which means a considerable reduction in their earnings. A great deal needs to be done in the metropolitan areas as well as in the rural areas. One instance which supports this view was brought to my attention only fairly recently. I have heard it mentioned by a fairly reliable source in South Australia that next year the engagement of apprentices will be down by about 33£ per cent on the usual intake. This will be due to the stagnation in economy which is the result, of course, of the economic policies of this Government.

The Government has made a completely erroneous diagnosis of the causes of the present trouble with the economy. Tt believed that after the 6 per cent wage increase which was granted last year there would be an increase in demand from which we might get a demand inflation superimposed on a cost-push inflation. It was this potential or latent excessive demand which had to be controlled and the measures to do so were contained in this year’s Budget. However, its assessment of the likely situation was completely wrong. The Government is now trying to say that the increase in savings and the fall in demand will be followed by an increase in demand and that this will happen spontaneously. I do not think this is so. I do not think the fall in demand is an accident. It was brought about by inflationary psychology.

Business thinks it has to increase prices because it does not know how it will cover costs. So what do business people do? They do not engage people and this partic ularly affects, as I say, apprentices. This is creating a very serious situation. At the same time consumers are frightened about their future employment prospects and so they tend not to spend and everybody tightens up. The Treasurer (Mr Snedden) thinks everybody is going to overspend because of cost inflation. Perhaps that might be the logical thing to do because at a time of inflation the value of goods increases relative to the value of money, but the instinctive behaviour of people is not always in their own long term interests. What people are doing as an instinctive reaction is not to spend. As a result we have this stagnation in the economy. It is this psychology that is producing this great increase in savings, and for that reason I believe that the reduction in demand is no accident. I believe that the Government’s assessment of the economy was completely incorrect.

We might ask what needs to he done in the present context, and 1 certainly would agree with those people who say we need the introduction of a supplementary Budget. But at the same time I think we must remember that this does not necessarily mean that we are going to restore full confidence in the economy. We have to remember that economics is not a precise mathematical science. It is really nothing more than an empirical study of past human group behaviour. I do not think we can predict exactly what is going to happen. But my feeling is that this reduction in confidence and in consumer demand might continue even if the economy is given a stimulus by the Government. I think the same thing has happened in the United Kingdom where the government is not applying particularly tight monetary or fiscal policies at the moment. In spite of that people are tightening up and nobody is spending. People are hanging on to their money and there is a rise in savings. I think we have to get right to the root of the problem and that is to control prices. I do not know why the Government backs away from this.

The Government cannot get at the problem unless it controls prices. If prices are not controlled this allows the Government and the employers to say that wage increases will affect the exporter, the farmer, the pensioner and so on and so forth. The Government is playing the farmer and the pensioner off against the wage earner. But if we have a context of fixed prices I believe that this playing off will not occur. What the wage earner is really seeking is to improve his lot against that of the employer - the profit earner. As far asI and the Labor Party are concerned, that is a highly desirable thing. We will not control the trouble with the economy, nor will we control unemployment until we get down and control prices because it is this inflationary psychology which is resulting not only in great inflation but also ultimately will increase unemployment. I have mentioned the problem of apprenticeships. I think that perhaps as an emergency measure we might have to do something to assist the intake of apprentices in the forthcoming year, because if the economy does improve for some reason in the near future we might find that apprentices will still not be taken in. The reason for this is that there have been retrenchments of tradesmen in the vehicle building industry in South Australia, and if the industry in up it will be those tradesmen who are taken on first because the apprentices are not immediately productive in the first couple of years of their indentures. So I would think that the chances are that if many of these boys are not taken on as apprentices in the next couple of months they will lose their opportunity of having a skilled occupation throughout their adult life. I think some emergency programme should be started to help the intake of apprentices.

But we must look at the whole cause of the trouble and set about controlling prices because this is what really matters. One other example of this psychology is to look at what people feel about the current wave of school leavers and how they are going to find jobs. About a month ago I visited a technical high school in my electorate. The headmaster said to me: ‘How am I going to advise parents who are asking whether they should take their children away from school now?’ He also said that everybody is so frightened about whether their sons or daughters are going to find employment in December and January that many of them are foregoing the final important part of their secondary education and leaving school in mid-term so that they can get in on the ground floor of the job market before the new year starts. I think this is a very sad state of affairs, but it is a pretty accurate account of how people feel about the state of the economy.

The main point I want to make is that it is just not sufficient - althoughI acknowledge that relatively speaking the problem of unemployment in rural areas is very great, it is still very great in the cities - to say that it is not just a matter of unemployment. There is also under employment, with people not working in the skills for which they have been trained. But these are the things that need to be done: Apart from the control of commodities and the control of prices, interest rates must be looked at quickly by the Government. I believe that in the present context high interest rates are not deflationary at all - that is if the Government is trying to bring about deflationary policies. I am not sure what the Government is doing at the moment because all that is happening is that high interest rates are being passed on as another cost, and this helps build up the inflationary psychology.

The final thing that really must be done-I might perhaps even have put this first - is to increase social service benefits, particularly unemployment benefits which are disgracefully low at the present time. I have said that consumer spending is low and this is one of the. things that has caused the Government worry. Surely these are the people who will increase their expenditure if we increase unemployment benefits because it is obligatory for them to spend the increased money that is made available. Many of them are living below the poverty line at the moment and ifwe give them extra money it will not only help them but also will give a fillip to the economy. I know that there are other honourable members who want to enter this debate so I will conclude by saying that I think some emergency assistance needs to be given to the State governments by the Department of Labour and National Service to assist with this great flow of school leavers who will enter the work force in the next couple of months. But most fundamentally we have to control the whole source of the trouble which is inflation. A Labor government will not shrink from the implementation of a system of Commonwealth price control, which is something that the Government has backed away from. We will give it the highest possible priority.

Mr O’KEEFE:
Paterson

– I rise to support the measure introduced by the Government and I oppose most bitterly the amendment which has been moved by the Opposition. I oppose the amendment because yesterday here in Canberra the representatives of the various State Treasuries met officials from the Commonwealth Government to set up an immediate scheme for the implementation of the funds that have been made available by the Commonwealth. The business of the meeting yesterday was to discuss such questions as the distribution of the Commonwealth grants between the States, the nature of the activities to which they will be applied for employment-giving purposes, the speed with which the arrangements can be brought into operation and the various administrative aspects of the scheme. These officials have now returned to their various States and will bring the matters discussed to the notice of their Ministers.

I say that this Government has acted speedily in bringing this matter to a head so that the various State governments can bring in and implement the scheme in the country districts under their control. There has been no delay at all on the pari of the Federal Government in this very important matter. Unemployment figures have been mentioned by the various speakers who have taken part in this debate. I have here the various unemployment figures for New South Wales. I will not say that , they do not give cause for concern, but at the same time they are not of an alarming nature. But they are of such a nature that the Government has decided to give assistance not only in New South Wales but also throughout Australia. When we look at the centres that have been most affected we find that they are centres where the wool and wheat industries are prominent, particularly the wool industry. This is one of the serious situations which this Government has to face. We are al) agreed on this. So I feel that this legislation is most worth while. Although of a temporary nature, it will mean that the unemployment pools that have been created in the wool areas will be overcome for the time being.

I was very interested in the speech made in this House last Thursday by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) on this very important facet. He said that, in broad terms, the Government envisages an arrangement providing for grants for employment-creating activities to be made to the States for the period up to 30th June 1973, subject to review after 30th June 1972 in the light of the then prevailing conditions. I think this is a very fair statement and one that indicates to people in these affected areas that they can expect assistance right up to that time but if there have been changed conditions in the meantime of a beneficial nature financially, this assistance will be tapered off. The objective of the scheme is to make a signicant impact on the level of unemployment in the non-metropolitan areas. Grants will be made for the purpose of reimbursing expenditure on additional labour intensive activities of a production kind. This is a wise policy; otherwise, if the money were to be expended on maintenance ventures and undertakings of this nature it would lose ils real significance.

Recent grants made lo some States under drought relief arrangements to enable the employment of persons who are unemployed as a result of drought might be taken as a broad indication of the type of scheme thai the Federal Government has in mind. We all know that the amount of money that has been mentioned is about $2m a month, spread right throughout Australia. I have been very disappointed with the honourable member for Riverina (Mr Grassby) because of the calamitous statements that he so frequently makes in this House. Here today this honourable member said that we were going back to the depression days. What sheer and utter nonsense. He spoke about refugee camps in the cities to take care of the people from these areas. Talk of this nature does not do his Party, the Government or the nation any good.

The economy of this country is very sound, particularly when compared with that of overseas countries, lt is sound because we have overseas balances of S2,600m. our exports have never been better, deposits in savings banks are at an all time high, and unemployment in this country - at 1.1 per cent of our work force - is the lowest of any country in the world. In the United Kingdom 3.4 per cent of the work force is unemployed, and over 6 per cent of the work force in the United States of America. These figures indicate that despite problems that we have in this country our economy is sound. Our economy is viable. Statements made by any member of the House along the lines of those made by the honourable member for Riverina are most damaging to everybody concerned.

The rural reconstruction scheme has been mentioned. It has, in the main, been most successful. The Commonwealth Government has made money available to the States to assist farmers who are viable and who with financial assistance can get out of any troubles that they may be in. But when we analyse the rural reconstruction scheme we find that most of the States prior to receiving this grant from the Commonwealth Government did not have the machinery to implement the rural reconstruction scheme throughout their primary producer areas. I have no doubt that this is one of the reasons why in many instances there has been delay in getting this finance out to the farmers who have been affected. New South Wales was one of the States that had a rural reconstruction department set up. I believe that it has been able to get its money out more quickly than any of the other States. Many statements have been made to the effect that the States have run out of money. The Federal Government has made it quite clear in its rural reconstruction legislation that when any of the States have allocated the funds which were made available to them and have made application to the Federal Government, further consideration will be given to the allocation of additional funds. I have heard that New South Wales and some other States have allocated all their money and are short of funds. I do not know whether the Ministers in those States have made application to the Federal Government for more funds, but if they do I feel sure that they will receive every consideration and every assistance.

The honourable member for Kingston (Dr Gun) mentioned that there is a high level of unemployment in the metropolitan areas. From my observation of the various cities throughout Australia, and particularly Sydney, there is an adjustment of employment from one industry to another. There certainly are some unemployed. I feel quite sure that, when the necessity arrives for the Government to give assistance in this field, it will do so. But 1 have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that the greatest problems have been in the wool and wheat growing areas. That is why this Government has given those areas assistance along the lines of the measure that we are debating here today. One of the most important aspects of this legislation is that this money will be channelled out in the States through the various local governing authorities. This will ensure that the money is spent wisely, that it is spent on projects which are worthy ones and not of a temporary nature and that it will bring great benefit to those local governing areas as well as providing employment for the people who have been affected by the rural recession in that particular sector.

I know that local government throughout Australia will welcome these funds, which will alleviate a great problem that is on their hands. At the same time the money will enable them to carry out work which will be of everlasting benefit to the municipalities and the shire areas wherever those funds are expended on worthwhile projects. So I have very much pleasure indeed in supporting the measure brought down by the Government. For the reasons which I have very clearly set out, I am certainly disappointed with the amendment moved by the Opposition.

Mr FOSTER:
Sturt

– Before the previous speaker, the honourable member for Paterson (Mr O’Keefe), leaves the chamber let me remind him that there sits a man who served in the New South Wales State Parliament under Premier Askin for years, and has said on 3 occasions in this chamber during the course of his speech that, because of representations contained in a letter that Premier Askin wrote to the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon), the Premier is nothing more than a liar. Let the honourable member for Paterson find his courage and go back to Sydney and inform Askin that he is a liar on several counts. Let me ask the honourable gentleman whether he is aware of the fact that in the last few days a colliery has closed down in his very electorate. Let me also remind the honourable gentleman-

Mr O’Keefe:

Mr Deputy Speaker, I raise a point of order. No colliery has been closed down in my electorate in the past few days. The information is definitely wrong.

Mr FOSTER:

– What is the difference whether it is weeks or days? In addition to that let me also say that in the electorate of the honourable member for Hunter (Mr James), because of the closure of collieries and reduced production by the Broken Hill Pty Company Ltd there is a rising rate of unemployment in the coal fields areas. But the honourable member cannot obtain the figures of unemployment in his own electorate, at the direction, as I understand it, of the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr Lynch) who is not even in the chamber at the moment. Let me deal with the amendment that has been moved by the Opposition in this regard. Let us get away from the divisions and the discriminations of this Government in a measure such as this. One would have thought that if the Government had a skerrick of sincerity in its body or a sincere thought in ils mind the Prime Minister would not, as he did a couple of days ago, have hastened into the chamber in the midst of a debate, interrupted the debate and made a statement, which I hold aloft here, of a page and a half about what the Government intends to do about the very serious unemployment problem within the rural sector.

The Prime Minister, having just returned from overseas, could do no better on a television programme than sit and say that he knew where he was going. He even had to borrow that phrase. Whilst he was overseas he learnt from the ‘Economist’ newspaper in Great Britain that that was the theme that the Prime Minister of Great Britain had used in a talk to a Conservative Party rally. If honourable members do not believe me let them go into the Library and look up one of the September editions of the ‘Economist’. They will see ‘This is where we are going’, ls this the type of thing we expect from the Government in the national Parliament of this country, facing the problem of an unemployment figure that can reach in excess of 150,000 in the next 3 or 4 months? The Prime Minister comes into the chamber with a scrap of paper. Has he not sufficient parliamentary draftsmen to draft a Bill so that the Opposition can see what is provided, where the money is. going and what the money is to do? The Government should be condemned forever.

The honourable member for Angas (Mr Giles), who spoke initially in this debate on behalf of the Government, pointed out - and correctly so - the unemployment figure for the metropolitan area of Adelaide. However 1 think the figure he gave of about 70 per cent of the total unemployment in South Australia being in Adelaide was somewhat conservative.

Mr Giles:

– They were the official figures.

Mr FOSTER:

– They were somewhat conservative because the official figures are more than conservative. What can be expected of a Government . that has been in office for 22 years which has created this monster and which has erected the tombstones of unemployment throughout the length and breadth of this country? What can one expect of it when it comes in with a measure .without any degree of seriousness about it but on which it must stand condemned because the problem it seeks to solve is of its own creation? The Government now has to tell the world how ineffective it has been. The few honourable members opposite who are in the chamber ought to be reminded of the statement on full employment that was made by Robert Gordon Menzies back in 1949 when he conned everybody. I have a copy of it here if they want to read it. How can we expect anything from a Government that has been so long in office? The Country Party, which receives only 8 per cent of the votes across the nation, has in this Parliament a number of seats quite out of balance with the number of people who support it. This comes about because of the weighted advantage that the Country Party has in country electorates.

What does the honourable member for Patterson expect $2m to do? What does he expect men such as the man who walks into the chamber now, the Prime Minister, to do? The honourable member for Mallee (Mr Turnbull) asked what the newspapers were saying about the Prime Minister. The newspapers are saying that Billy McMahon says: ‘You will be all right. Australia can take the lead’. It is enough to make anybody with any sense of responsibility in this place shudder. The Prime Minister sneaks into the chamber - and I say it to him while he is sitting in the chamber - interrupts the debate and makes a snap statement. Somebody winds him up, he unwinds in this House for 10 or 15 minutes on a. statement such as the one he made a while ago, and then he clears off again until somebody else winds him up by mentioning trade unions or something of that nature.

Mr McMahon:

– By the way, asked for by you.

Mr FOSTER:

– You need not interject while I am speaking. I ask the protection of the Chair from the Prime Minister. The time is well overdue when the Prime Minister should rise in this place and make a statement about matters concerning the public of this country. I challenge you, Sir-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Luchetti:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Order! The honourable member will speak through the Chair.

Mr FOSTER:

- Mr Deputy Speaker, I challenge the Prime Minister not to scurry into a long recess, as has been the custom of the Parliament and as he did at the end of the autumn session, and leave the problems that he is leaving to the nation today. What plan does the Prime Minister have to arrest ‘ unemployment, outside of a piece of paper such as his statement? What plan has the Prime Minister for the rural reconstruction employment training scheme introduced into this House by the Minister for Labour and National Service on 10th September this year but which was withdrawn because he refused to circulate details shortly after he presented it. There the matter has rested. Not one word has been said about this document that was presented to this House on 10th September. The Prime Minister does not want to discuss it. What he and his Party want to do is to wait for somebody to come along with an industrial situation on which they think they can divide the nation. The Government should be cursed for it, if I may use that term.

I have just been handed some advice which 1 am prepared to accept. For the benefit of the honourable member for Paterson. I mention the 2 collieries that have been closed. I understand that the Liddell Colliery is in his electorate. Let him stand in this House now and seek the protection to which he is entitled and say that I was right and that he was wrong. Is it not a fact - I direct my remarks through you. Mr Deputy Speaker, to the honourable member for Paterson - that the collieries have in fact closed? I repeat the allegation that I made before. The honourable member called his own Premier a liar. The Premier of South Australia is more than concerned. Did he not make some representations to the national Parliament suggesting ways to get the country back on an economic footing? Have his proposals not been ignored? The honourable member for Angas the other week used the procedures of this House for a cheap political trick in seeking to have the wine excise removed? He ought to be condemned for that for ever and a day.

Mr Giles:

Mr Deputy Speaker, with great respect might I remind the honourable member through you that we are debating a statement. It is not an overall debate on the state of the economy or the state of the electorate of Sturt.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Sturt will proceed.

Mr FOSTER:

– Let the Prime Minister, the Government and the Cabinet continue to sit in this place and draw up a plan of progress, a plan for the future and a plan to return the people to industry. Let the Prime Minister knock off the high interest rates that he has imposed in both this Budget and the Budget of last year. Let him no longer come into this House as he does- with catch phrases from time to time. What plan has any one of the 3 Ministers - I understand none of them has been sacked recently - who are sitting in this House at the moment?

Mr Giles:

– What about your amendment?

Mr FOSTER:

– I thank you. I come to the amendment. Why does the Government want to oppose the amendment? Is it because it does not want anything done before Christmas? What does the amendment say? We are saying in the amendment that a person in the city who is unemployed has a damned equal right in this country, as he should have. Does the honourable member for Angas realise that the figure he gave for the high percentage of unemployed for the metropolitan area of Adelaide is brought about by the fact that people have flocked to the metropolitan area because their positions in the country have become redundant? So the honourable member has denied his own people that the Government has sacked. The people who have moved into the metropolitan area are being denied their right. What else do we say in our amendment? The amendment urges the Government to initiate immediate discussion. Why not?

Mr Turnbull:

– That happened yesterday.

Mr FOSTER:

– Let me finish. Let me say this to you: I as a member of this national Parliament have heard no statement made, even by the Minister for Customs and Excise (Mr Chipp), who is sitting at the table-

Mr Giles:

– Read the newspapers.

Mr FOSTER:

– 1 am not looking at the newspaper. Mr Deputy Speaker, let me say this to honourable members opposite whom you have not called into line for interjecting: There has been no announcement in this House of any meeting yesterday with anyone from any level in the States dealing with the matter contained in the statement that is now before the House. I am told that we can read about these things in the ‘Daily Mirror’. I can read in the daily papers also some things that have been said about the Prime Minister. If I wanted to do so 1 could pick out one from amongst all the gear I have here. Here is one which says: ‘You’ll be all right’. The ‘Australian’ sets out what ought to be done as far as the leadership of the nation is concerned. A Melbourne newspaper talks about Billy McMahon having big ears, short arms and big pockets. But I do not want to do this.

Mr Turnbull:

– I take a point of order. I object to the Prime Minister being called Billy McMahon’. The honourable member should say ‘the right honourable the Prime Minister’. It shows how much he has to learn about politics.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Corbett:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

– Order! The point of order is upheld. I ask the honourable member for Sturt to refer to the Prime Minister as the right honourable the Prime Minister.

Mr FOSTER:

– I was merely quoting the Press reports. I was not being disrespectful to the right honourable gentleman. Let me also say, regarding the position with reports in this House, that it is just a non-event. There is not one member of this House who can stand up and say in fact, in truth and in logic that we have had presented to this Parliament a report stating that following the Prime Minister’s statement to the House a meeting was held to put into effect the proposal now before the House.

Mr Turnbull:

– I told you about it.

Mr FOSTER:

– Well, what a big deal! The honourable member for Mallee has told us about it. The Deputy Government Whip says he read it in the ‘Murray Rag’, so it must be right. That is not good enough for me and 1 am quite certain that I speak for members of the Opposition.

Mr Turnbull:

– I rise to a point of order. 1 did not say that I read it in the ‘Murray Rag’. There is no such newspaper. 1 object to the remark.

Mr FOSTER:

– I had overlooked the fact that I have not really any proof that the honourable member can read at all, but I have seen him look at a piece of paper when he has been reading speeches in this place. So let us not be hoodwinked. We have seen reports in newspapers, have we not, that this Government said before the last Senate election that it was going to build a string of child minding centres across the metropolitan areas of the Commonwealth. We read this in the newspapers. We did not believe it. It has never come to fruition. So what is wrong in applying that argument on this occasion? The Government has a responsibility to remove the tombstones of unemployment in this country. I do not think there is anything that hurts a person more than to be told, not directly on some occasions by his employer but by finding in his pay envelope a slip that tells him his services are no longer required. I doubt very much whether any honourable member on the Government side has suffered this indignity. There are some very wealthy people on the front bench and they have probably never given this matter any thought.

Another matter I want to refer to is a point made by the honourable member for Kingston (Dr Gun) who said that the Government has given no thought to unemployment relief for those who are unemployed as a result of Government inaction in this field. The Government ought to consider that it does a disservice to the nation. 1 believe and 1 am quite certain that there are older members on the other side who believe that the Government should recognise that it has run its race, it has run its time and it ought to vacate office in the interests of the people of this country generally. Finally [ want to say that there is nothing in the amendment moved by the Opposition which, if there is anything at all contained in the measure-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member’s time has expired.

Mr O’KEEFE (Paterson)- I wish to make a personal explanation.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Does the honourable member claim to have been misrepresented?

Mr O’KEEFE:

– Yes. During the course of the address by the honourable member for Sturt (Mr Foster) he mentioned that the colliery in my electorate known as Liddell had closed and that I had previously denied this. The Liddell Colliery some 2 or 3 months ago had a disastrous fire and it closed down, but I am happy to announce that a new colliery will be opened in January and will employ 150 miners.

Mr KENNEDY:
Bendigo

- Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to support the amendment-

Motion (by Mr Giles) put:

That the question be now put.

The House divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Mr Deputy Ayes Noes

Speaker - (Mr J

Corbett) 58 52

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question put:

That the words proposed lo be added (Mr Barnard’s amendment) be added.

The House divided. (Mr Deputy Speaker - Mr J. Corbett)

AYES: 53

NOES: 58

Majority

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Original question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4434

QUESTION

ADDITIONAL ASSISTANCE FOR GOVERNMENT AND INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS

Ministerial Statement

Mr McMAHON:
Prime Minister · Lowe · LP

– by leave - I wish to inform the House of decisions the Government has taken to provide additional assistance to both Government and independent schools in areas of special need. Decisions taken in association with Commonwealth and State conferences over the last 18 months or so have resulted in a significant increase in the level and rate of growth of genera! revenue assistance from the Commonwealth to the States. The current expenditure on primary and secondary education in State schools has benefited significantly from these arrangements and the Government is convinced that additional assistance iri that area would not be justified. However, the States have not been able to allocate as much as they would have liked from their available capital funds lor primary and secondary school buildings: They speak of problems including the provision ot additional’ classrooms and ‘ associated facilities and the replacement of outmoded and cramped accommodation.

We. have decided that it would be desirable to assist the States to increase their capital expenditure in respect of primary and . secondary schools. We have given very careful thought to the form in which we should provide this assistance and we have decided that the best approach would be to provide this assistance . by way of additions to the interest-free capital grants which the Commonwealth is making to the States as part of their annual works and housing programmes, and as a substitute for loan raisings. These capital grants arc being paid for the purpose of assisting the States to finance non-productive capital works, without incurring debt charges on the funds used. However, as these grants arc being made in recognition of the need expressed by the States for additional capital expenditure in primary and secondary schools, we would expect them to be yo used by the States. We would prefer ;ha science laboratories and libraries in secondary schools, for which there are existing special purpose grants, be excluded from these grants.

The additional grants will also be paid entirely without any matching conditions attached to them. 1 should add that the Commonwealth expects that the States will continue with their own planned levels of expenditure in this area so that these grants will represent a net addition to the facilities in government schools. The amount of the additional grants will be S20m of which part will be paid in the remainder of this financial year and part in 1972-73. They will be distributed between the States in proportion to the capital grants presently being received by them, which in turn are distributed in the same way as the States’ Loan Council borrowing programmes for works and housing. The additional grants will be amalgamated into the basic capital grants for the purpose of determining the proportion of the works and housing programme that the grants will represent in future years. The amount that each State will receive on the basis indicated is as follows: New South Wales, $6. 36m; Victoria, $5. 10m; Queens.land, $2.53m: South Australia, $2.74m; Western Australia, $1.87m; and Tasmania, $ 1.40m - a total of $20m. I have written to the Premiers inviting them to agree to accept these grants on the basis I have outlined.

Since 1969 running costs of government schools have risen by at least 30 per cent to 40 per cent and even more in some cases and it is now costing over $300 a year to educate a child in a government primary school and over $500 a year to educate a child in a government secondary school. The general financial assistance grants from the Commonwealth represent about one half of the State’s current Budget expenditure and on this basis it can be said that the Commonwealth is supporting approximately one half of the increased expenditure by the States on primary and secondary schools. The independent schools have received additional assistance from the States, but they are facing increasing difficulties in thenefforts to provide adequate facilities for a reasonable proportion of the school-going population. Many of the independent schools have been paying their teachers salaries at rates significantly lower than those paid in government schools. However, there is now a number of awards which require these salaries to be increased to full parity with the operative rates in government schools over a short period. This development has resulted in relatively greater increases in costs in the independent schools than in the government schools. The independent schools have limited capacity to charge higher fees and collect other income, and for boarding schools there are additional difficulties arising from the downturn in rural activity. The combination of these factors has resulted in a continued drift in enrolments to government schools.

The need for immediate additional assistance to independent schools is emphasised by the following current developments. The Roman Catholic authorities in Melbourne are considering seriously a proposal not to expand secondary schools but to concentrate resources in primary schools. In Tasmania a number of Roman Catholic and other independent schools are faced with the prospect of having to cease operations. The Government hopes that a contraction would not be necessary in either area.

As a further measure of assistance to the independent schools, the Government has decided to increase the rates of the annual per capita grants to both primary and secondary independent schools throughout Australia. These grants were first made available from the beginning of 1970 at annual rates of $35 per head in primary schools and $50 per head in secondary schools. These rates will be increased to $50 per head in primary schools and $68 per head in secondary schools from the beginning of 1972. These additional per capita grants to independent schools in the States are expected to cost $9. 7m in 1972 of which half, that is $4,850,000 will be payable during the financial year 1971-72. The amount in each State will be approximately: New South Wales, $3.58m; Victoria, $3. 14m; Queensland, $ 1.46m; South Australia, $600,000; Western Austraiia, $700,000; and Tasmania, $220,000- a total of $9.7m.

Independent schools in the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Territory share in the per capita grants which the Commonwealth makes available to independent schools in the States. They also receive a local component in their per capita grants broadly equivalent to those paid by the State governments to independent schools in the States. In addition to the increases I have already mentioned, the local component in the annual per capita grants to independent schools in the 2 Territories will be increased from the beginning of 1972. The increases will be from $20 to $35 per head in primary schools and in secondary schools from $30 to $45 in forms 1 and 2; from $40 to $45 in forms 3 and 4, and from $45 to $50 in forms 5 and 6. The increased grants to independent schools in the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Territory are expected to cost $347,000 in 1972 of which $173,000 will be payable during the financial year 1971-72. The Government will introduce appropriate legislation covering these measures during the autumn session of the Parliament next year.

My Government will continue to cooperate with the States in measures both direct and indirect to expand and improve education services in government schools. Our policy for the independent schools is that, relying on their own efforts and with assistance from governments, they should be able to continue to provide places at a reasonable standard for that proportion of the school population which in- the past has Sought education in non-government schools. The action we are now taking is a further . indication of our determination to assist those directly concerned to improve the standards in all types of schools. I present the following paper:

Additional Assistance for government and independent schools - ministerial statement, 9th December 197 J.

Motion (by Mr Swartz) proposed: That the House take note of the paper.

Mr BEAZLEY:
Fremantle

– The Opposition welcomes an increase of expenditure on education of $29.7m. We are, unfortunately, not in a position to assess exactly how this will meet the needs in certain key States because the Nationwide Survey of Educational Needs of May 1970 has not yet been conveyed to us in the sense that the 2 biggest States, New South Wales and Victoria, have not tabled their findings. So, we do not know what these additional grants mean in terms of adequacy in relation to the needs of New South Wales and Victoria. The second thing that the Opposition would like to say about this is that it hopes that the States have been sufficiently consulted to be in a position readily to use this money.

If honourable members look at the history of science laboratories, of library grants and of the finance for teachers colleges, it will be seen that the Commonwealth’s action in these respects was quite precipitate. It was highly beneficial to those who actually had a plan to build science laboratories or actually had a plan to build libraries but there were many who, not knowing that this was going to be available, had no plan and did not receive the benefit and States, not knowing that the grant for teachers colleges was to be available, had no plan and were unable to spend money. The expenditure of these sorts of sums of money requires a degree of preparation. I presume however that if this is just a straightout grant, the State authorities and the private authorities will be able to adjust their systems to use the money to the optimum.

However, I want to say something about this system of making per capita grants to private schools. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to devise in each State a Catholic education authority and an education authority for the other independent schools, to make a grant to them which may be calculated on a per capita basis and for them to be given the right to spend the money according to need. The Government may lay down guidelines of need, but a Catholic education authority in- Western Australia, shall we say, would get approximately $4.37m - I think that is what the grant will be - and that Catholic education authority could spend the $4. 37m according to need. It would be a better system than the system of making grants tied to specific schools which may not have a need.

The second weakness in the grants system is that it is geared to schools in being, whereas the great problem for independent or church schools, and especially those of the Catholic Church where it tries to provide schools in parishes regardless of their wealth or poverty, is that there is constant development in new areas but a school has to be in being before it can attract a grant. There must be some means of assisting these church; authorities to bring a school into being, for which this present system does not . adequately allow. We should remember that expenditure on education is economically valid expenditure. I do not believe that there is any economist who seriously regards expenditure in this direction where there are such needs as being inflationary in its effect. Expenditure on schools and hospitals is not inflationary expenditure. The Government already is putting money into areas where there is a great need, and it is not getting a luxury surplus to chase scarse goods or scarse materials. This action which the Government has taken in providing $29.7m is really a token addition.

It may keep the wolf from the door. I have a feeling, at least so far as Catholic parish schools are concerned, that the money which the Commonwealth provides is always just enough to stop them from sinking under, but not enough to enable them to organise an effective school system.

I do not imagine that increasing the grant from §35 to $50 for a primary school pupil and from $50 to $68 for a secondary school pupil will solve the problems that were indicated to the country by Archbishop Guilford Young in his television programme, nor will it relieve from bankruptcy the 20 schools to which he referred. The making of a straightout grant of an adequate amount to a Catholic education authority in Tasmania which had a discretionary power to assign this sum of money according to need and which was able to make a greater grant to the most necessitous schools, seems to us to be a better system. But having said that, we consider that the position of education is so parlous that we are not prepared to cavil at additional expenditure of $20m in the State school sector or $9. 7m in the private school sector, although we do protest about the failure of the 2 great States to publicise what are their educational needs. We believe that there is no provision for real alleviation of the poverty of some of the private schools and no provision for real capital advances to enable private schools of the Catholic nature to be built in new parishes. The present system puts a premium on a school being in existence and makes a grant that is just enough to keep the wolf from the door without there being much discretion to apply the money to the areas of greatest need. Having said that, I stress again that we welcome any such increase in expenditure on education.

Motion (by Mr Giles) proposed:

That the debate be now adjourned.

Mr Bryant:

Mr Deputy Speaker, in accordance with the appropriate Standing Order, will you record my dissent from the motion that the debate be adjourned? I think it is a disgrace to do things like this. This matter was not even listed on the blue paper. The Prime Minister has blown through; he did not even listen to what was said.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4437

QUESTION

NATIONAL FILM AND TELEVISION TRAINING SCHOOL

Ministerial Statement

Debate resumed from 10 November (vide page 3230), on the following paper presented by Mr Howson:

National Film and Training School - Ministerial Statement, 10th November 1971. and on motion by Mr Swartz;

That the House take note of the paper.

Mr HOWSON:
Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts · Casey · LP

Mr Deputy Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to raise a point of procedure on this matter. Before the debate is resumed on this order of the day I would like to suggest that it might suit the convenience of the House to have a general debate covering this order of the day and the next order of the day as they are associated with the same subject. I suggest, therefore, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you permit the subject matter of the 2 orders of the day to be discussed in this debate.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Corbett:

– Is it the wish of the House to have a cognate debate on the 2 matters? There being no objection, I will allow that course to be followed.

Mr GORTON:
Higgins

- Mr Deputy Speaker, I have been informed that since I spoke some few sentences before securing the adjournment of this debate it is necessary for me to ask for leave to make a statement on the matter.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– That is not necessary. The right honourable member for Higgins may speak in the debate.

Mr GORTON:

– Thank you. The discussion on the establishment of the national film and television school, during this session, was initiated by a question asked by the honourable member for Chisholm (Mr Staley). In reply the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts (Mr Howson) made a statement which was in part an answer to that question and in part a statement to the Parliament. This happened on 8th September, and the answerstatement said to the House that the cost of establishing the school would be over $7m - spread over 5 years. On 10th September the Minister informed the House, in answer to a question, that this expenditure of over $7m would result in the school providing to the industry 12 graduates a year.

The Parliament is entitled, when a matter of this kind is to be decided by it, to be provided with accurate facts on which the Parliament can base its judgment. If inaccurate information, for whatever reason, is provided to members of Parliament by a Minister the Parliament has no chance of reaching a proper conclusion as to what should be done for it would be acting without full information. I, therefore, on 16th September questioned the Minister on these matters. In reply the Minister reasserted that the cost of the school would be over $7m though he did not at that stage repeat the allegation that this sum would result iri an output of 12 graduates a year, nor did he correct his former statement as to this. I believed the facts given to the House to be wrong or mistaken, or whatever it is, and on 13th October I said so in the Parliament. I said that the sum quoted by the Minister was not in fact the sum required for the film and television school alone but included an amount of $2m, in round figures, which was required not for the film and television school alone but for a number of other schools which might, in the future, be associated with it.

I also said that the figures given to us included $1.8m, again in round figures, which was not in any way a part of the capital cost of establishing the school but a sum representing recurrent expenditure over a period of years. I interpolate that it was made clear by the Minister that this was a recurrent cost, but it was incorporated in the total cost given to us. I know of no other instance, in the establishment of a university, a college of advanced education, an institute of marine biology, or anything of that kind, when recurrent expenditure for 5 years has been added into the ostensible capital cost of establishing such an institution. It was, I think, an extraordinary thing to do. In fact, if the capital required for establishments other than the film school and the first 5 years running expenses are taken out, as they should be, the cost of establishing the school is to be not in excess of $7.6m but $3.8m.

Subsequently, on 26th October, the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) made a statement in which he supported the Minister’s estimate of a cost in excess of $7m but corrected the estimate of the output of graduates from 12 to IS graduates a year. The Prime Minister had, perhaps, been misled since he justified his statement by asserting that the Council had not recommended that the film school should be established on an area of 8 acres. In fact, the Interim Council had so recommended. It was not the Council’s preference; it was not its prime recommendation or first recommendation. But the Council did recommend in paragraph 4.5 of its second report that the school should be established according to a timetable which was applicable whether the Government bought 60 acres for a number of schools or whether it decided to purchase the smaller area of 8 acres for the film and television school.

The actual wording of paragraph 4.5 of the second report, after setting out the programme and timetable, is:

The programme as set out in. the timetable is applicable whether the Government accepts the recommendation to purchase the larger area required for a Centre-

That is, a number of other schools:

  1. . or a lesser area sufficient for the film and television school alone.

That surely makes that matter clear. It is made clear also in the first report of the Interim Council where in paragraph 11.7, all of which I will not read, but none of import of which I will exclude, the Council concludes by saying:

The Interim Council recommends therefore that the establishment of a film and television school should not be delayed pending its incorporation in the larger area.

The Council suggests the school itself should go ahead at once. So, I suggest that it is clearly shown by the first and second reports of the Interim Council, which were tabled in this House, that although the Council would have preferred a larger area, most of which was for other than the film and television school and, therefore, the cost of which should not have been debited to the film and television school, nevertheless it wished the establishment of the school to go ahead even if the larger area were not bought.

This conclusion is borne out by the papers subsequently tabled on 10th November in this House which make it quite clear that the Minister had been presented with 2 costings by Mr Coleman of the Interim Council - one for 60 acres and one for 8 acres - as early, as 1 understand the papers, as June this year. The papers also made it clear beyond doubt that only 8 acres would be required for the film and television school alone. That appears in the second lot of papers laid on the table of this House.

The Council still urged that the best course was to purchase land for a number of schools but that only 8 acres was required for the film and television school itself. If that was all that was required for that school and that school were to go ahead, the cost of that area, 1 suggest, is all that should have been charged to that school. Nowhere does it appear that the Council is saying in any way that unless an area of 60 acres is bought the film and television school should not be proceeded with.

The second lot of papers also shows that Mr Coleman is advising the Minister, in paragraph 11.7 of the first report which 1 have already quoted, that the Council - and 1 quote from Mr Coleman’s communication to the Minister tabled in the second group of papers:

  1. . specifically recommends going ahead with the film and television school even before a decision on the centre - that is the 60 acres - has been made.

The second group of papers also shows that the estimate of 12 graduates a year made by the Minister was incorrect and that the estimate of 15 graduates a year given by the Prime Minister in his statement was incorrect also. This is brought out clearly in the record of discussion between the P.A. Management Consultants Pty Ltd and the Innterim Council. The paper is too long to go through in detail. But in this discussion Sir Ian Wark points out that the analysis of the position gives a figure of 50 graduates rather than the figure of 15 graduates required each year. It is a pity that this second lot of papers was not tabled on 26th October. They had then recently come to the Minister’s possession, as I understand it, and their existence, and I believe their contents, were known to the Prime Minister.

They give us additional information which it would have been useful to know earlier. But at least their contents are now known, and I submit to the House that they clearly show that the capital cost of establishing the school is, as I said, not $7. 6m but $3. 8m and that the number of graduates for whom places can be found is not 12 or 15 but something at least between 40 and 50 a year. If that has been established - and I submit that the papers before us do establish that - at least the Parliament has proper facts on which to base its judgments, whatever those judgments might turn out to be. 1 consider the eventual establishment of this school as being most important. It is part of a 3-pronged programme to improve the capacity of the Australian film and television industry to produce films of high standard or a standard at least equal to the best world standards. That 3-pronged programme consisted in the establishment of an experimental film division, in the establishment of the Australian Film Development Corporation to finance Australian productions of merit and in the establishment of the school to give us better producers, better directors, better writers and better technicians so that the films financed by the Corporation would incorporate the highest standard of skills in their production. That ought still to be the objective of the Government.

I am disturbed at developments which now seem to be taking place. Mr Hector Crawford and Mr Mauger of Consolidated Press Ltd have been added to the Interim Council. It appears that Mr Crawford at least is more interested in delaying or sabotaging the establishment of the school than in acting to establish it. The arguments advanced for this course are apparently that a school to produce excellence is not needed - at any rate, at present. The argument is that there will not be employment for the graduates. What is suggested is that, instead of a school - I emphasise instead of a school - what is needed is tariffs on imported films and, presumably, television productions and for the holders of television licences and, I presume, the distributors of films, to be forced to include in their programmes a larger quota of Australian made drama and for the distributors to be forced to provide proper outlets for Australian made drama and perhaps, though this is not clear, for subventions to be made to established television producers. It is suggested that this is more important than the setting up of a school.

I do not quarrel with those propositions per se. I do not say that actions of this kind are wrong. They will, if implemented, or they should, if implemented, provide more opportunity and more employment for Australians engaged in the television industry and in the film making industry, whether as actors or as producers or as writers or as technicians. But whether or not this is done there will still be an overriding need for us to train to and above world standard our own Australians. If the proposal for tariffs and quotas and for making distributors do something results in an Australian television industry which calls for more actors, gives more opportunity for producers, directors and writers, surely that in itself means that there is a greater need for graduates of excellence of the kind of school we are discussing. If we do not set out to provide this standard of skill and excellence then taking merely the steps proposed on tariffs and quotas could well condemn Australians either to paying much more to see a film or to watch a television programme or to watching second rate productions. And unless we do this we will not get that world wide distribution which we can only expect to get if wc turn out first rate productions.

When we do have first rate productions we can justifiably require that distributors use them both in Australia and overseas. We can say to overseas distributors: ‘If you will not show our productions we will use tariffs and other weapons to stop your productions from coming into our country’. But this can only be properly done if our productions are of a standard equal to or better than those produced abroad. If we do this we will be in a position of strength. (Extension of time granted). I thank the House; I will not trespass upon its patience. If we did this we would be in a position of strength but we will only attain this position of strength by attaining excellence and we are most likely to attain excellence from the establishment of a proper school. ‘Make it Australia’ is a slogan with which I agree. Make it Australia, yes, but only if it is also made excellent, because it is in that way alone that Australia will be able properly to get into overseas markets and properly to disseminate throughout the world, as films so perfectly do, a picture of Australian life at the same time as we build up what is a necessary Australian industry.

Mr SHERRY:
Franklin

– by leaveThe right honourable member for Higgins (Mr Gorton) has touched upon the relevant statistics with regard to the cost of the school and the number of graduates that would ultimately emerge when the school is established. Time, and indeed patience, might well be taxed if I repeated them. I find myself in some difficulty in speaking in this debate and in a state of perplexity and doubt as to the person to whom one should direct one’s remarks. Is it to the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts (Mr Howson)? Is it to the council of Ministers headed by the Treasurer (Mr Snedden)? Is it to the Attorney-General (Senator Greenwood), that sensitive gentleman who resides in another place? fs it to the Minister for Social Services (Mr Wentworth), a radical and sensitive man so close to the contemporary trends in our society? This is no easy assignment. This debate has all the ingredients of a second rate film because the question at the moment is: Who really is responsible for this complex and fragmented portfolio? On 24th November the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) said:

The simple fact is that, because this matter was so sensitive, I thought it was desirable to appoint a group of Ministers lo handle it and to receive letters and correspondence direct . . .

A very arduous task - so that they would be able to prepare a speech for me and advise me as to the action that should be taken. They did this. Consequently, i divorced myself from the details as completely as I could. 1 wanted to rely upon the ministerial commif.ee which, i think-

And 1 repeat for honourable members, T think’- is under the chairmanship of my colleague, the Treasurer, and also has the Attorney-General on it.

That was the Prime Minister’s statement on 24th November. What an extraordinarily simplistic statement it was. This prodigious revelation was made by the right honourable gentleman, but what does it mean? What is the significance of it? It means that the Minister has been eclipsed. The Minister, appointed only a few months before, was deposed from his own environment by a group of Ministers. This was surely a massive humiliation andI extend my sympathy to the Minister for the invidious position in which he now finds himself. A Minister with a portfolio, but a Minister without authority; a Minister without direction, humiliated and humbled by his own Prime Minister. This is a ministry dismantled by a Prime Minister who has the creative vision of a computer. This, then, is the current situation, a situation almost without precedent, in which we find a council of Ministers supervising the Minister for the Arts in his first turbulent and confusing months of stewardship.

Since 8th September when the Minister made a statement in the House - indeed, one of the few that he has made on this matter - the whole issue has been clouded in secrecy. In that statement the Minister outlined his reasons for the Government’s deferment of the film and television project. It was because of the costs involved, that is, $7½m over the next 5 years. Even if one accepts this figure, it would cost 11c or 12c per head of population per annum. This is the nub of the argument: Whether this school is worth while, whether it will be established on 60 acres or 8 acres, whether the consultants were right in their recommendation, and whether the Interim Council for a national film and television training school was satisfied with those recommendations. This is nothing but humbug. One cannot blame the consultants and one should not blame the Interim Council; certainly they have been constricted and inhibited to a very great degree by the shifts and indecisions by the Prime Minister who suddenly emerged on taking office earlier this year as the economic overlord of the arts in this country.

One must confess to having some doubts as to the Minister’s grasp of the situation which has been outlined precisely and most accurately by the right honourable member for Higgins. On 10th September in answer to a question from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) about the possibility of losing the services of the eminent Professor Toeplitz, the Minister said, and it is recorded at page 1 112 of Hansard:

I think that there is a fair chance we may not get the professor to whom the honourable gentleman referred because he is probably going to London.

In fact, he was in residence at the La Trobe University in Victoria, the Minister’s own State.

Mr Morrison:

– He would not know that.

Mr SHERRY:

– Yes. I suppose one has to be generous in these matters. The professor was employed at the Latrobe University. On another occasion, in answer to a question I asked, the Minister said he did not know of the opposition of the Federation of Commercial Television Stations to the project. On yet another occasion he did not know the number of graduates which the school would produce. It must be admitted that the Minister was appointed to this portfolio only on 3 1st May, but even in a moment of excessive charity it could not be said that he has displayed an intimate knowledge or a comprehensive grasp of this portfolio. In response to my quest ion on 28th October a letter from Mr Peter Coleman to the Minister was at last tabled. It was not tabled on 26th October when the Prime Minister made his statement in this House. The letter clearly indicates the Council’s unhappiness - indeed, its very justifiable suspicion. To use a colloquialism, it was getting the run around. This then is the brief narrative of the Minister’s involvement inhis needlessly protracted dialogue. What does one hope to achieve? What do we anticipate will be the benefits that will flow from the establishment of the school? The right honourable member for Higgins has already touched briefly on this essential point. We would hope that an expertise, a technical excellence and, above all, a continuity of that excellence would be available for the nation to project its own image and the cultural energies of our own indigenous talent.

Some 70 years after the emergence of this revolutionary art form - perhaps it would be conceded that the cinema is the only true art form of the twentieth century - we in this country are arguing whether this is an investment which is worth while, which will enrich our society and stretch and exercise the minds of our creative people. In a copy of the British Cinema, Sound and Television’ of April this year, during the discussion with various members of the Film Training School in London, it was pointed out that in 5 years’ time teenagers will have their own television sets and will play programmes as they play long playing records today. As a consequence the density of information and entertainment will have to be much higher and we will need new talent from established film schools to supply this demand. One dominant theme that emerges is that a film school can provide an environment for experimentation, development and a society of its own which does not conform to the society outside. Within this environment the boundaries of film and television communication or experience can be pushed forward and this to me seems an excellent idea.

I want to touch very briefly on the concept that has been developed at the University of California in Los Angeles. At this University they have a total concept film and television school for teaching motion picture and television which was opened in 1967. This whole concept is established under one roof. There are sound studios, editing rooms, standard 16 mm and 35 mm projectors, and included in this pre-production school are halls, theatres, facilities for scenic design, presentation of music and sound effects, and complete libraries. The post-production facilities include 26 film editing rooms, 10 video tape editing rooms and sound transfer rooms. This school, which is probably the finest of its type in the world, even goes into the highly difficult and technical field of animated production. The recording studios are equipped for double system projection and the area will allow multiple track microphone recording of voice, music and sound effects. I wonder whether this Government has examined this project which is already a living entity in the United States.

This is a very vital and creative industry. It is a dependent and thoughtful industry. It is from such a film and television school as the right honourable member for Higgins envisages and I support, that the creative talent will emerge and it is from the encouragement and stimulation of this creative activity that I suggest our society will bc enriched. Yet when this opportunity is presented to us we quibble on the cost of an acre here or an acre there, a graduate here or a graduate there. The communication of ideas through the medium of television and film is the most comprehen sive means of communication available to man. I want to turn now to some areas that are specifically embraced here. The Australian Film Development Corporation must be seen as the final creative entity that is so dependent upon the Australian film and television school. In the Budget this year, there was no further addition to the initial allocation of Sim made. when this Corporation was set up. One of the very great difficulties facing film makers in this country is that of distribution. For example, the producers of ‘Stockade’ which, incidentally, was backed by the Corporation, now find themselves in the extraordinary position of being offered uneconomic distribution deals by distributors. One can only conclude that distributors are not interested in the indigenous product and they are, in the main, controlled by overseas interests.

I want to turn specifically to the statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) on 26th October when he announced on page 6 of that statement that the Government had decided to add 2 new members to the Interim Council, namely, Mr Hector Crawford and Mr Len Mauger. Mr Crawford’s reputation is well known and Mr Mauger’s reputation is equally well known. But for the life of me I cannot imagine - in fact it defies any logical explanation - why the Prime Minister should appoint these 2 men to the Interim Council when in point of fact both of them may well be opposed to the entire concept. Mr Crawford is on public record as saying that he considers the establishment of such a school an extravagance and unnecessary. Mr Mauger, as a senior executive of the Packer group of companies and the Channel 9 network, has never, as far as I am aware, expressed any warm enthusiasm about this project. Time simply will not allow me to pursue all of the statistical details at any great length, but I would like to suggest in conclusion that through this film and television training school we will create a professional talent and a creative ability. We have every opportunity to do so.

We are one of the few nations in the world which do not do so. If we accept this challenge then we can emerge as a beacon of creative originality in this part of the world, for if this school is established it will be the only one of its kind in the Pacific area and will therefore be making a vital contribution to our own industry and our own people. It also will provide an opportunity for so many of our near neighbours and it will allow for the dissemination of our particular talents. I am appalled and ashamed that in this, the last half of the twentieth century, we are still confused and totally uncertain and unconvinced that we can project a maturity and a sophistication through this incredibly persuasive medium that can and will shape our attitudes. If this film and television school is scrapped or is emasculated because it was given birth by the right honourable member for Higgins it will be to this Government’s eternal shame. Let us have an end to this indecision and uncertainty and create a worth while, tangible and productive stage for our artistic and creative talents.

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · Darling Downs · LP

– As has been stated, the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) set up a special committee of Cabinet and, assisted by the Minister for the Enrivonment, Aborigines and the Arts (Mr Howson), it investigated a number of matters relating to this subject. It is felt that perhaps the best way to deal with the situation today is to provide a statement to the House of a survey which had been provided to the committee of Ministers giving the historical background of the Interim Council for the national film and television training school and related matters. I hope this will be accepted as a factual interpretation of the information that is available and that has been provided to the committee of Ministers.

The Australian Council for the Arts appointed a Film Committee in November 1968 to examine the future of the film industry. It made 4 recommendations: Firstly, that a policy of protection for the film industry was essential, and recommended that the Tariff Board look into the matter fully; secondly, the establishment of a national film and television training school; thirdly, the establishment of an Australian film and television corporation; and fourthly, the establishment of an experimental film and television fund. This report went to the then Prime Minister in May 1969. In a Press statement in August of that year, the then Prime Minister announced that the Government had adopted the second, third and fourth recommendations. According to this earlier report, the proposal for a film school arose from a national conference organised by the United Nations Education, Science and Cultural Organisation. The only estimate of costs that was available at that time was a report to the British Government suggesting that the cost of technical facilities, excluding buildings, would be of the order of $400,000 and the annual running cost would be $200,000. It was on the basis of this report that the Prime Minister established the Interim Council for the film school.

The final paragraph of the report at that time read:

The first function of the Interim Council will be to confer with appropriate representatives of the educational and film fields and to recommend to the Government an appropriate location for the School. The Council will then consider the matters necessary to bring the School up tothe point of an actual operation.

Those honourable members who have read the first report of the Interim Council will see that the Council took this paragraph as its first term of reference. The second term of reference was taken from the previous Prime Minister’s statement in his speech at the presentation of the Australian Film Institute Awards on 2nd December 1969. In the course of this speech the then Prime Minister raised the question as to whether the national film and television training school should be part of a university or whether it should be associated with other institutions. He said:

Should it, as another alternative,and perhaps the best of the lot, should it be a part of some entirely new - not college of education, not university - some entirely new centre where not only the national film and television school sets up for its purposes, but where the National Institute of Dramatic Art might perhaps set up for its purposes instead of in the University of New South Wales, where possibly the School of Opera or Ballet might also set up for its purposes, and where all these art forms which have so much in common could perhaps cross-fertilise each other . . .

There is no doubt of the importance these proposals had for the Interim Council. For, in its covering letter of 5th November 1970 forwarding the first report of the Interim Council, the Chairman said:

You will see that the Interim Council has accepted the suggestion you made in your speech at the presentation of the Australian Film Institute Awards last year, that the Film and Television School be part of a larger Centre embracing a number of Schools of associated studies.

The Interim Council has forwarded 2 reports to the Government - the first in November 1970 and the second in March, 1971. The first report recommends, inter alia:

  1. That the School be established as a College of Advanced Education with its own Governing Council . . .
  2. That the Film and Television School be regarded as the first major School of a Centre to be established in a group of associated studies.

From this it will be seen that the national film and television school should have the status of a college of advanced education. In paragraph 12.3, the report goes on to say: ‘Past experience in establishing other Colleges of Advanced Education indicates that some 60 acres may well be required.’ Taken in conjunction, these 2 statements would seem to indicate that 60 acres was a requirement for a national film and television training school. However, it is necessary also to take into consideration paragraph 1 1.4, which says:

The Interim Council realises that it is not a viable proposition to set up the National Film and Television School on its own, with a student body of only limited numbers. In economic terms, this would be unsound . . .

And again, in paragraph l l.S it says:

Therefore, the idea suggested by die Prime Minister of a larger Centre, in which the independent Film and Television School would share the common facilities and services with other similarly oriented Schools, is supported by the Interim Council.

These were the major recommendations in the 2 reports of the Interim Council, the second of which was received by the Government on 25th March 1971.

It will be noticed that there is no reference to the estimate of the cost of these proposals in either of the two Reports. The first time that the costs of these proposals were examined was on 22nd June, when the Minister for the Environment met the Chairman of the Interim Council in Sydney. For this meeting, the Chairman had asked the executive officer to prepare some draft estimates of costs. This was the first time, apparently, on which the Council had made any attempt to look at the financial implications of their reports, for the Chairman has said: T stressed at the same time that they had not yet been considered by the Council’. It was at this meeting that the Minister suggested that the Council should prepare for his consideration a less ambitious programme involving the recommendation to proceed immediately with the least expensive steps and approach the more costly steps over a period of time. It was at this interview that the first mention of an 8-acre site occurred. Nowhere in the first or second reports can there be found any reference to 8 acres.

Following these discussions, the Chairman submitted draft estimates of costs to the Interim Council and then forwarded them to the Minister on 30th June. An examination of these estimates shows that the cost of land for 60 acres would be $2.4m and for 8 acres $350,000; the cost of buildings $1,750,000; capital costs (excluding the cost of land and buildings) $1,69 1,000; and running costs for the first 5 years $1,807,000. The total costs, based on the 60 acre site, were of the order of S7.6m based on a 5-year period, lt will be seen from this report that the Minister had endeavoured to ask the Council to recommend a less ambitious programme. The Government was facing a period of financial stringency and all recommendations for increased Government expenditure were being examined carefully. However, in spile of these discussions, the Chairman of the Council wrote on 28th July 1971, saying:

The Council also is anxious to make perfectly clear that its recommendation on the purchase of the land, now available in a non-intensive subdivision, is based on the belief that the site should nol be confined to the area needed solely for a Film and Television School. Other Schools in associated studies are under active consideration, and their eventual close association and physical location alongside the Film School is considered of great importance to its long-term success. The opportunity to acquire the full site so advantageously will never re-occur.

From this letter, it is clear that the Interim Council’s proposals involved the purchase of a 60 acre site, together with the other recommendations contained in the estimates of costs referred to above. This was the basis of the statement that the Minister made on this matter in the House on 8th September. It was the first occasion on which the matter had been raised in the House, and, in the course of his statement, the Minister said:

Whilst the Council’s enthusiasm for the project is fully apparent, the continuing economic stringencies and the substantial cost, which is estimated to be over $7m during the first S years, have led to consideration of their proposals being deferred for 12 months.

It is clear from the documents that have been tabled that, if the Government had endorsed the reports and proposals of the Council, its recommendations would have involved the Government in an expenditure of over $7. 6m over the next 5 years. These recommendations were endorsed by the Chairman of the Interim Council as recently as 25th October 1971, for in his message at that time be said: . . lt is the continued view of the Interim Council that the School would succeed best, and some say only succeed, if it were part of a consortium of Schools. The School should not exist in isolation but should be part of a Centre of Schools of related activities. In other words, the Interim Council has never recommended the Film School being established on 8 acres, although this is the area of land suggested if the School were established in isolation.

However, the recommendation of the Council always has been, and remains, that the best interests of the School would be to establish it in conjunction with other Schools in related subjects, upon when basis the recommendation was made for the purchase now, at an advantageous price, of the full area of sixty acres. . . .

So far I have dealt with the details of costs of the proposals of the Interim Council. I now turn to examine briefly the estimate of the number of graduates who should be trained at the film school for employment in the industry in Australia. There is no indication in the original report of the film committee that there had been consultation with the industry in Australia or any estimate of the likely requirements of graduates, lt is also clear from the first report of the Interim Council that it did not consider itself able to estimate the requirement for graduates. In paragraph 9.3 it states:

Because of the difficulties involved in the Council itself making a thorough analysis of the industrial opportunities, as distinct from those in education, P.A. Management Consultants Pty Ltd have been engaged to conduct a survey of employment prospects in the film and television industry.

In fact, at this stage the Interim Council had put in a report recommending the establishment of a film and television school and the purchase of land before it obtained any estimate of the required number of people to be trained in the school. The consultants, P.A. Management Consultants Pty Ltd, then produced a report in which they say categorically ‘the School should plan for an initial output to the industry of a maximum of 15 graduates per year’. The 15 graduates would be the total requirement of the following categories: producer-director, editor, script writer, film cameraman, and art director.

The Interim Council was now in the position of having suggested a large complex of schools including the film school only to find that the experts concluded that the immediate need is for only 15 graduates per year, lt was at this stage, that the Council proceeded to examine and evaluate the conclusions of the report. The dialogue that ensued is reported in the attachment to the letter that the Chairman of the Council sent to the Minister on 25th October and which was tabled by the Minister on 10th November.

Examination of this discussion shows that a number of estimates were made as to the requirements of graduates - some relating to a period 20 years hence - yet there is still only one concrete recommendation available, and that is the conclusion of P.A. Management Consultants Pty Ltd.

At this stage, the matters that have been considered relate to the means by which the Interim Council was established and the reports that the Council has made up to this moment. However, it is now necessary to examine the future of this important industry. It will be seen that there are a number of questions to which complete answers have not yet been given. The first refers to the relationship of the proposed film and television school to the film and television industry as a whole, lt is important that every effort be made to ensure that the film and television industry is prepared to co-operate with the proposed film and television training school so as to ensure that the graduates emerging from the school would be employed, especially as at present there is some degree of unemployment in the industry in Australia. In order to ensure this co-operation between the industry and the Interim Council of the Film and Television School, the Government has agreed to the appointment to the Interim Council of Mr Hector

Crawford and Mr Len Maugher, 2 experienced men recommended to the Government by the Interim Council. The terms of reference for the Interim Council have also been widened. They have been asked to review the relationship of the training already undertaken by the ABC, the commercial television organisations and the film industry to the programme of the proposed school. The Council will now seek the co-operation of those interested in connection with this review, and, as soon as the Government receives its report, it will consider the most appropriate way in which it might act to assist the industry in this important area.

The next question relates to the proposal for a multi-school centre, which some members of the Council refer to as a polytechnic of associate disciplines. It has been suggested that this polytechnic could include the Australian Ballet School, the Australian Opera School, the National Institute of Dramatic Art, a post-graduate school of industrial design, a post-graduate Australian conservatorium, and a school of communications. Consideration is being given to asking the Australian Council for the Arts to examine these proposals in greater detail.

Finally, however, it is necessary to return to the first report of the Film Committee of the Australian Council for the Arts, and to the recommendation made at that time. This was that a policy of protection for the Australian film industry in some form would seem essential in the long-term, and the Committee recommended that the Tariff Board, or some specially constituted body, look into this matter for it. The Prime Minister has announced that this recommendation is now to be implemented. (Extension of time granted). I thank the House. Recent reports on the Australian film and television industry indicate that there is probably no other country in which English is the common tongue which is so poorly protected against American and British imports of film as is Australia. Within these conditions of unequal opportunity and what can, from many points of view, be called unequal competition, it is hardly surprising that Australia has had such trouble in creating a viable communications industry of international quality. Foreign television producers can afford to sell their programmes at ‘dump’ prices to

Australian stations, having spent perhaps 10 times on a programme what an Australian company could afford to spend, and selling it for about a quarter of what it would cost to make in Australia, lt can be seen that many people believe that this is the first problem that needs to be solved. Until a solution has been found, the Australian film and television industry will not expand. When a solution has been found, expansion will take place. The decision of the Government to refer the industry to the Tariff Board shows that it now sees the whole problem, and that it is determined to assist the industry to expand and to relate all the proposals so that they fit in to this objective.

Dr CASS:
Maribyrnong

– The thing I find depressing’ in this discussion is the timidity of the approach of the Government, lt seems that it needs cut and dried answers to every conceivable question; there is not much room for imagination or enthusiasm. If I may refer to the report by the consultants who drew up all this verbiage, in a summary of their findings they indicate, in discussing the needs of a national film and television training school, that ‘there are certain problems. They concede this. They feel that the industry believes it suffers from 2 major drawbacaks. There are insufficient volumes of work due to a small home market and its inability to supplement this sufficiently in export markets. The next problem is that there is a great shortage of top class people to handle the key functions, namely, producer-directors, editors, script writers, film cameramen and art directors. They then say:

These two factors are seen by the industry to be self-perpetuating.

The report continues:

The key to greater volume of work can never be more than partially solved by any government action in the form of increased quotas, subsidies or the like as the home market is just too small. The greater volume must come from export markets which are seen to require higher standards. Higher standards, in turn, depend on having the necessary top class key people.

Of course the top class key people depend on a greater volume, and so it chases its tail and will never get anywhere. The point is that the whole concept seems to be related to the needs of an industry seen in far too narrow a sense, as far as I am concerned.

For instance, this survey indicates that it did not include an assessment of employment opportunity for graduates of the school in educational institutions. It did not consider the possible desire of some graduates for self-employment or to work on a free-lance basis. It did not consider students from overseas who might attend the school and then return to their home countries. In other words, the whole concept appears to be seen in terms of the needs of the film industry, the people who make films that are shown on the commercial screen; but I suggest that there is much more to it than that. T would like to quote from an article written by Phillip Adams in a well known national newspaper recently commenting on the views expressed by the man who took his place when he resigned from the Interim Council, namely, Hector Crawford. Adams says:

Hector’s gloomy attitude to the employment prospects of graduates-

The Minister for National Development (Mr Swartz) mentioned this. He said there is not much scope, there is not much room for people. That is the view of Hector Crawford who it seems is one of the men who has been given the prime responsibility of reviewing the whole thing. Adams article continues: . . (who wouldn’t make their debut until ground 1975) is just as baffling. For a start, film and television are meritocracies - forms of expression that need new people as surely as agriculture need new crops or Parliament needs new members. Perhaps he is being prophetic. He goes on:

Does society stop producing painters, novelists or musicians to protect the employment prospects pf middle-aged practitioners? Of course nol. And it would be just as absurd (and cruel) to prevent talented young film-makers studying their craft because of the shadows Hector sees in his crystal. Adams continues:

In any case, the Interim Council had carefully researched employment prospects and found that the industry needed more graduates than the school could realistically provide. For that reason we had always thought in quantitative rather than qualitative terms.

To get confirmation of that we turn to the first report of the Interim Council. In paragraph 9.2 it states:

Graduates can be expected to find employment in film and television production, whether in government and national agencies or in the private and commercial sector. A limited number might also find jobs with advertising agencies or in other branches of the communications media. In addi tion the Interim Council has constantly been made aware that there is a growing demand fo.r graduates-

This is where a bit of inspiration comes into it - of a Film and Television School in education. Universities, Colleges of Advanced Education, Teachers Colleges’ and Technical Colleges . . .

Let us consider what Professor Toeplitz said about the whole thing - someone who has world stature as a film maker. He said:

  1. notice from your Report that the Interim Council has said that graduates of the School will find employment not only in film production but also in educational fields;-

There were no estimates made as to the demands in these fields - in the universities, colleges of advanced education, . . and so on. Tt is of course unlikely that the supply of experts in educational film and television will ever satisfy the demand.

In view of all the pessimistic views that have been expressed by the Government I would like to repeat that. Professor Toeplitz concluded:

It is of course unlikely that the supply of experts in educational film and television will ever satisfy the demand.

He continues with another bright idea, not that he is just trying to be bright but because he perceives a need in human terms for the community. He said: . . I think that the National School should be prepared to organise courses of limited duration for scientists and their counterparts in other disciplines, who might wish to use film as an aid to their own research, as a medium for training other people or, perhaps, as a vehicle for the popularisation of their life’s work. For such people courses in the fundamentals of film technique would be of immense value. 1 should stress that such courses would be of more value if they were made available to scientists and others at the outset of their careers, rather than to their more senior colleagues.

This is a case for having the school near another tertiary institution where these people could be produced so that we can get some cross fertilisation as has been mentioned before. In other words, I think the whole brouhaha about the enormous cost - which I think is nonsense as it is really a drop in the bucket in terms of the gross national product of this country- on the ground that there really is not a need because after all it will produce only 15 graduates and they will not find work anyway is sheer nonsense. It is narrow and it is looking with blinkers over your eyes.

That would be a minimum. There are many more avenues of possible employment for these people. Adams continues:

Recently Fred Eng,les, the American producer . . . said that Australia needs cameramen, editors and technicians of international standard if we are lo persuade overseas interests to film more features here. But, more importantly, Australia needs these people itself - along with writers, directors and producers - if it is to develop a truly indigenous industry.

In fact Adams quotes, very interestingly, from a letter written by Hector Crawford to the Interim Council just 12 months ago in which he said: . . since the purpose of the school is to foster the growth of Australian-produced television programmes and feature films, I consider that it should train directors and writers. Courses should also be available in the technical aspects of film-making, but it is the lack of creative personnel (ie, directors and writers) which is holding the industry back. An essential part of a student’s training would be the widening of his horizons in a variety of fields other than simply motion pictures or television . . .’”

Crawford continues: . . it is suggested that the school’s curriculum should include lecturers on a variety of subjects allied to the arts.’

That is another good reason for having it in a larger area associated with other schools and next to a university. Adams continues:

And I would ask both the Prime Minister and Mr Howson to zoom in and take a big close-up of this sentence: ‘Ideally, there should be one school established in Melbourne and another in Sydney.’

So much for the poppycock about the one we are proposing being too much for Australia already. Crawford himself feels there ought to be 2 envisaged even at this stage. Phillip Adams goes on to indicate how film schools have been around since 1918 in various countries in the world. It is not a novel idea. He suggests that many leading film makers of Russia, Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia have all been graduates of film schools. He indicates that currently in America 100,000 Americans are studying film or television at the tertiary level. The equivalent for Australia would be something like 25,000 and here we are quibbling about whether we can afford to build a school to turn out about 15 people. What utter humbug and nonsense. I would suggest that it is time we recognised that this community is rich enough to afford a little bit of adventure, a little bit of inspiration and a little bit of courage in grappling with something that is new, some thing that we have not tried before. In any case for the future health and welfare of this community in terms of its intellectual and emotional development it is vital that we should develop this new form of communication. It is new compared to writing and other forms such as music, painting, and so on. Film and television are new. They are new mediums of communication. But just because they are young and a bit smart does not mean that they arc any less important as means of communication. In fact there are some who feel that probably film and of course television because of their capacity for immediacy and their scope in combining many of the other art forms ali together clearly visual, auditory and so on, are in a way potentially more important to the human race than all our previous art forms. It does not mean that film will displace these things, lt clearly builds on these other things. After all we cannot have films without writers. I am not suggesting it displaces anything. It builds upon these things but it is an integral part of the expanding necessity that we have for improving communication and understanding between peoples. After all, what else can exceed the capacity of a film to communicate beyond language barriers because one may not understand the language but whatever one’s language one can understand the image.

For these reasons I feel that the Government is betraying itself and the whole community is being so timid and so reluctant to proceed with what was in my view a very modest proposal put forward by the Interim Council. When the Council proposed 60 acres of land as against the 8 acres or whatever piddling area it was for just a simple film school, the Council was looking ahead to a broad concept. I think we should accept the recommendation of the Council. We should not at this stage ruin the chances of the whole proposal just because we do not feel we can afford S7m at this stage over 5 years. Of course we can. My guess is that the way the economy is going some time next year the Government will embrace the opportunity to expend the extra money to encourage or to prime the pump of the flagging economy. So let us stop the nonsense about we cannot afford it. Let us stop being frightened. Let us be a bit adventurous. Let us drag ourselves into the latter half of the 20th century.

Mr HAYDEN:
Oxley

– The proposition which we have before the

House is foundering because of Government policy.

Motion (by Mr Giles) put:

Thai the debate be now adjourned.

The House divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Ayes . . 54

Noes . . . . . 46

Majority

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The question is that the adjourned debate be made an order of the day for the next day of sitting.

Mr HAYDEN:
Oxley

– 1 move:

That so much of Standing Orders be suspended as would prevent the honourable member for Oxley speaking in relation lo the National Film and Television Training School. 1 do so because there was a proposal to have 3 speakers from this side of the House on this issue. The Government arbitrarily decided that there would be only 2 speakers from this side without, I understand, referring the matter to anyone in a responsible position on the Opposition side.

The matter I want to deal with in relation to the National Film and Television Training School does not in fact relate to whether or not we should have a school but relates rather to the conduct of the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts (Mr Howson) and the Government in respect of the way in which they have handled this matter in the House. It seems to me that there has been a continuing thread of what one could describe in a fairly mild way as misrepresentation of the nature of this policy proposal and the reasons why the delegate on the matter has been brought to a state of foundering, to be scuttled later quietly and quickly. It seems to me that there has been a number of-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! 1 suggest to the honourable member for Oxley that the subject now before the Chair is the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders. Earlier in the day it was pointed out that the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders does not cover the subject matter which the mover will seek to discuss but relates to the reason for suspending the Standing Orders. The only subject matter that can be discussed is that relating to the suspension of Standing Orders.

Mr HAYDEN:

- Mr Deputy Speaker, I appreciate your direction. Nonetheless you will also appreciate the need for some flexibility if one is to establish a case in support of one’s contention that the Standing Orders ought to be suspended in order to allow one to present a particular form of argument. What 1 am putting to you is that because of the arbitrary way in which the Government has closed down debate - and this is no secret to any member of the House - this matter has been buried in the Notice Paper and will not be resurrected between now and the next election, whenever that happens to be.

The issue I want to bring forth in debate is (hat there has been this continuing pattern of what I regard as grave misrepresentation of this issue.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I point out again to the honourable member that he is transgressing the Standing Orders. If he continues to transgress them in this way I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr HAYDEN:

– I ask that the Standing Orders be suspended so as to allow me to debate this issue. Perhaps 1 could indicate to you-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– No. The honourable member knows that when he seeks the suspension of the Standing Orders he is asking, if the House agrees to the suspension, for an opportunity to discuss the subject matter of the statement made on the national film and television training school. The motion before the Chair is for the suspension of the Standing Orders and is not the substantive matter.

Mr BRYANT:
Wills

– 1 second the motion to suspend the Standing Orders. I do so for this reason. The House is about to go into recess for 7 or 8 weeks. We have mct for, 1 think, 150 days in the last 780 days. There have been continuous misuses of the majority control of this Parliament by the Ministry on every significant issue over the last few months, and one of the significant issues is the establishment of the national film and television training school. This debate has now been pushed right into limbo so that it will never be raised again. Mr Deputy Speaker, the situation is this: This Parliament is the forum of the nation. It can operate as a forum only if there is public debate on public issues. One of the important public issues of the moment is the film school. We have heard continual remarks from the other side of the House. There has been a misuse of question time. The only way in which the Opposition can put its point of view and the only way in which the honourable member for Oxley can put his point of view is to speak in this House and therefore it is essential that he be permitted to speak. The only way he can be permitted to speak now is to suspend the Standing Orders. The only machinery available to the Opposition in this context is to suspend the Standing Orders - these Standing Orders which have been misused continuously by honourable members on the other side, particularly today, so that the Government can have its say and the Opposition can be silenced.

We must suspend the Standing Orders so that the most suppressed Opposition in a comparable parliament anywhere in what one might call the Western or parliamentary world can be heard. The honourable member for Oxley, in this instance, represents 50 per cent of the people of Australia and therefore he should be heard. We want to know whether the Minister is afraid to speak. Why is it that be has not been heard in this instance? However, the essential question is whether the Opposition voice is to be heard or whether it is to be silenced, and the only way it can be heard is through suspension of the Standing Orders. It is a disgrace to the parliamentary system that the honourable member for Angas (Mr Giles) and the Ministry, particularly the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz), should continually misuse their majority control to silence us, and we must take every opportunity to ensure that our voice is heard, lt is important that the honourable member Ibr Oxley be heard. I do not know why the honourable members opposite, in particular the Minister, arc continually scuttling for cover.

Question resolved in the negative.

Original question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4450

NATIONAL FILM AND TELEVISION TRAINING SCHOOL

Consideration resumed from 26 October (vide page 2523), on the following papers presented by Mr McMahon:

National Film and Television Training School - Interim Council -

First Report of November 1970, Second Report of November 1970,

Tables of Estimates of Costs of Establishing the School, A Survey of Employment Opportunities foi Graduates of the Training School,

A copy of a letter dated 23th July 1971 from the Chairman to the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts,

Answer by the Prime Minister to a question by the Leader of the Opposition on 14th October concerning the proposals of the Interim Council for a National Film and Television Training School, 26th October 1971. and on motion by Mr Swartz: That the House take note of the papers. Question resolved in the affirmative.

Sitting suspended from 5.58 to 8 p.m.

page 4451

PUBLICATIONS COMMITTEE

Mr ERWIN:
Ballaarat

– I present the Fourteenth Report of the Publications Committee.

Report - by leave - adopted.

page 4451

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT BILL 1972

Bill presented by Mr Snedden, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr SNEDDEN:
Treasurer · Bruce · LP

– I move:

That me Bill be now read a second time.

The purpose of this Bill is to give effect to amendments to the income tax law foreshadowed in 2 separate announcements I made earlier this year. Each announcement followed a decision of the High Court which showed a weakness in the present law of which taxpayers were taking advantage to avoid - quite legally - large amounts of tax which, in accordance with the policy of the legislation as approved by the Parliament, it was intended they should pay.

The Bill is therefore one directed wholly against legal tax avoidance. This is a subject about which the Government is generally concerned at the present time and which it is closely examining in various aspects. The Bill is an important one, dealing in part with the most difficult question of providing effective legislative tests which separate the genuine public company from the ostensible public company for taxation purposes. It will not be practicable to debate the Bill in these sittings but the Government considered it should nevertheless be introduced now. There will thus be provided a full opportunity for the terms of the Bill to be considered within the Parliament and outside it before the debate takes place.

Before the amending legislation of 1964, based on the recommendations of the Commonwealth Committee on Taxation 1959-1961, there had been considerable legal tax avoidance through essentially private companies masquerading as public companies. The 1964 legislation was intended to put an end to this. Unfortunately, as the High Court has pointed out, the 1964 amendments left a real gap. This gap has been used to obtain the same sort of unintended tax advantages for private companies as were available before the 1964 amending legislation. In broad terms, the general aim of the arrangements is to ensure that the trading profits of private companies remain taxed at the lower rate applicable to those companies but that the profits are distributed as dividends to companies that are public in a narrowly technical sense so that there is no incidence of undistributed profits tax or personal tax on shareholders in respect of the dividends. The arrangements strike at the very basis of our company tax system as it was intended by the legislature to apply. Moreover, they are highly artificial and serve no purpose other than tax avoidance.

One type of scheme was dealt with by the High Court in the case of Casuarina Pty Ltd and ruled legally effective. Another type is known as the ‘chain-of-ten” scheme and is equally effective. Each type requires co-operation between genuine public companies and private companies so that, with the help of the public companies, the private companies can pay dividends to a company which is technically a subsidiary of a public company - and therefore itself a public company - for tax purposes. Of course the arrangements also ensure that the dividends effectively remain the exlusive property of the private company interests, except, perhaps, to a very small extent which is a recompense or fee to the public company for its assistance.

In the Casuarina arrangement, the whole essence of the matter is that at the end of the year of income the company receiving private company dividends meets all the technical tests of a subsidiary of a public company. That is to say, at that time more than 50 per cent of the capital, voting power and the rights to dividends and other distributions are in the hands of a public company shareholder. There co-exist, however, countervailing devices which ensure that any attempt by the public company shareholder to exercise its ostensible rights can easily be defeated by the private company interests so that the public company rights are, in fact, worthless. These devices include such things as the use of shares redeemable at the instance of the private company interests only, but there are many ways in which the desired effects can be achieved.

The ‘chain-of-ten’ scheme takes advantage of the fact that under the present law a sub-subsidiary of a public company, no matter how remote from the head or parent company, must be treated as a public company. If a company is owned as to more than 50 per cent by a public company, and its voting power is controlled by the same company, it is treated as a subsidiary of that public company. If it, in turn, has the same measure of ownership and control in another company, that other company is also treated as a subsidiary and so on. Tn a typical chain a public company listed on the stock exchange provides a specially set up company with subsidiary status and this subsidiary sets up a chain of ten other subsubsidiaries below it. The tenth and last sub-subsidiary is the company to which the private company profits are distributed as dividends. The public company interests could force redistribution of these dividends along the chain - against the wishes of the private company interests. This is unlikely, however, because there is a 49 per cent private company ownership of each link in the chain which would result, for example, in only $119 out of $100,000 of private company profits finding its way to the listed public company at the top of the chain. The balance would all go to the private company interests.

The Government has decided that, in the face of these arrangements, in all their complexity and their shades of organisational and factual differences one from the other, the best plan was to define primarily as a subsidiary of a public company one that is, at all times during the year of income, beneficially owned, in the fullest sense of those words, as to 100 per cent by a genuine public company, including a sub sidiary which, on these tests, is itself a public company. This the Bill proposes to do. The Bill also proposes that a company which does nol meet the 100 per cent test will not be treated as a subsidiary of a public company unless, at all times during the year of income, it is owned as to more than 50 per cent and its voting power is controlled, again in the fullest sense, by a public company listed on the stock exchange. Both direct and indirect interests will be taken into account for these purposes.

These are necessarily stringent tests. As a safety valve against their applying inappropriately, the dispensing discretion vested in the Commissioner by the present law to treat a company as public when, for one reason or another, it fails to meet all the technical tests but should reasonably be treated as public, will remain. This is not a new administrative discretion, but one that has operated satisfactorily for some years now.

The tests - stringent as they are on the face of it - could still be met and provide no more than a facade behind which the company is managed or conducted so as to render the public shareholding worthless or virtually so. Directors representing private interests, for example, could have the power to do this. This is a substantial difficulty which it has not been found possible to overcome both positively and comprehensively. The legislation therefore permits the Commissioner to deny public status lo a company when, having regard to specified matters relevant to the determination and set out in some detail, he is satisfied that the company’s affairs are being conducted to this end.

It is proposed by the Bill that the amendments I have so far described should basically apply so that, if the company structure had been fully established by the necessary issue of shares, etc., before 29th April 1971, the relevant company will remain a public company for the 1970-71 income year by satisfying the existing tests of a public company subsidiary. For subsequent years, however, the company will need to comply with the tests that are proposed in this Bill. Where the structure had not been established until after 28th April 1971, it is proposed that the company be treated as a private company for 1970-71 and later income years unless, of course, it meets the new tests in relation to the later years. These commencement provisions are consistent with what I said In my announcement on the matter on 28th April 1971.

The income year 1971-72 is, therefore, the year for which, in the generality of cases, the new tests, required to be met at all times during the year, will apply. A good deal of that year has already elapsed and more will have passed before, if Parliament approves the Bill, royal assent is given to it. In recognition of this, a special transitional provision is proposed whereby a company will, with an exception I shall shortly mention, be taken to have met the tests at all times during 1971-72 if it meets them at all times during the part of that year commencing no later than one month after the date of royal assent. The exception is the case of the company which has performed the public company part in a tax avoidance arrangement of the kind against which the legislation is directed and which received private company dividends in the period of 1971-72 prior to its compilance with the new tests.

Where a company remains a public company for the income year 1970-71, distributions made to it by a private company up to the end of that year will be treated as dividends paid to a public company. However, it is proposed by the Bill that any such distributions made after 28th April 1971, and before the end of the recipient company’s 1970-71 income year, will not be capable of giving rise to an excess distribution to be carried forward by the private company into future years. In other words, a company will not be permitted to generate an excess distribution through excessive dividends declared under the tax avoiding arrangement in the closing stages of 1970-71, and after my announcement of the proposed amendments.

The Bill also proposes an amendment to deal with another and different arrangement which involves avoidance of undistributed profits tax without actual distribution of profits. Under this scheme a private company issues shares to a genuine public company in return for a premium equal to the dividends the private company is able to declare. It is proposed that a dividend paid in these circumstances is not to be taken into account in determining whether the paying company has made a sufficient distribution of its profits. This amendment will apply in relation to dividends paid after today.

As foreshadowed by my announcement of 31st August 1971, the Bill also proposes amendments to deal with dividendstripping arrangements which take advantage of the way in which the law at present requires the tax rebate on inter-company dividends to be calculated, lt is proposed that the amendments will operate in relation to dividends arising out of an arrangement which the Commissioner of Taxation is satisfied is by way of dividend-stripping. The term ‘dividend-strippng’ has been employed in the courts here and in the United Kingdom and has come to have a widely understood connotation in professional and financial circles. This amendment will apply to dividends paid after 31st August 1971 and, in broad terms, will permit the amount of dividends subject to rebate to be ascertained by reference to all losses and outgoings incurred in relation to the dividend-stripping arrangement as a whole. in my announcement of 31st August 1971 1 pointed out that, because of the dividend rebate provisions, a company can effectively receive other kinds of income tax-free. In addition to the dividendstripping arrangement, a recognised way of doing this is for a share trading company to take advantage of the trading stock and dividend rebate provisions of the income tax law, operating in combination, so as to reduce tax on share trading profits. The Bill proposes that where the purpose of a valuation of trading stock is to obtain this tax advantage the rebate allowable to the company is to be calculated as though, instead of the valuation of stock adopted by it, the lowest valuation that it could lawfully have chosen had been adopted. This amendment will apply in relation to assessments for the income year 1971-72 and subsequent years.

In my announcement of 31st August 1971 1 also mentioned that the rebate is required to be calculated on a basis that can be unduly advantageous to companies not involved in any arrangement for legal lax avoidance. On this aspect of the matter the Government has received a large volume of representations and it has become quite clear that there is no simple way of altering the basis of the rebate without giving rise lo serious anomalies between different company structures. For this reason the Government has considered that it should confine the proposals of this Bill to measures directed against legal tax avoidance. An examination of the other matter will continue, paying particular regard to the exigencies of company organisation. If it is found appropriate, amending legislation to deal with the matter will be brought forward at a later time.

A number of the provisions - unavoidably and, I think, quite appropriately - turn primarily upon the Commissioner of Taxation being satisfied as to certain matters. If the taxpayer disputes the opinion formed by the Commissioner on the facts of a particular case, the usual rights of objection and appeal against the Commissioner’s decision will, of course, be open to him. A memorandum explaining technical features of the Bill is being made available for the use of honourable members. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr Crean:

– Before 1 move for the adjournment of the debate I seek leave to make a brief statement of some two or three minutes about one or two matters that have been raised in this debate.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted.

Mr CREAN:
Melbourne Ports

– I must say that 1 concur with my friend, the Treasurer (Mr Snedden), in his view that we are entitled to take the utmost steps that we wish to take with respect to what appears to be an intent to subvert the provisions of the Act by what might be called legal contrivances. The Casuarina case which the Treasurer mentioned is an instance of what I mean. I take the firm view that most people in the community cannot avoid the legal obligation to pay taxation and that those who try to be clever about the inadequacies of the law deserve to be met with the harshest consequences if it is felt that they are subverting the principle of an Act.

Early in his speech, the Minister said:

There will thus be provided a full opportunity for the terms of the Bill to be considered within the Parliament and outside it before the debate takes place.

No opportunity will be provided within the Parliament to debate this matter until we resume in February. I hope that an opportunity will be given early in the next sessional period, before the Bill comes on for debate, lo discuss some of the principles involved. I must say that I am at one with the Treasurer on this issue. Legal gentlemen try to draw very fine distinctions between the evading of taxation and the avoiding of taxation. They become rather sensitive when one term rather than another is used. Candidly, J find it a bit difficult at times to know what is the difference between ‘evading’ and ‘avoiding’. Legally there are some distinctions. 1 hope that we will be given some kind of opportunity to debate this matter and i hope that those people who are affected by matters of this type will make their representations.

I suppose that the proposition that I am about to put is implicit in the whole taxation structure. I take as an example the manufacture of boot polish. If a company is unsuccessful in making boot polish - most boot polish manufacturers in Australia have been quite successful; the Kiwi company is a good example, but my remarks refer to any company that is unsuccessful in prosecuting a particular endeavour - and it has capital resources, that company then can go backwards, if you like, from boot polish manufacture to making boots. On the other hand, if a company is successful in manufacturing tobacco should it be able to move forward into the manufacture of, say, lemonade or wine? These are some of the matters that we have to face up to and this leads me to deal now with loss companies. This is a curious device. It involves firms which, if they were individuals, would be declared bankrupt, but which, because of the provisions of the law, may be bought as loss companies, as they are called, and there is a tax value in such companies to the buyer. Candidly, I would like to remove that kind of opportunity. In my view if one has been unsuccessful in one endeavour that may be a tragedy to him. but his business should not be available as a grab for someone else who is successful in another endeavour. I would like to see these matters contemplated in some detail before the House considers them. The Treasurer and I are at one on these issues. Part of this legislation deals with the ability of a private company to become a public company simply to accept the taxation advantage involved. The law should not allow such an opportunity. I was interested the other night to hear the honourable member for Wentworth (Mr Bury) ask a question about this matter. I suppose there are some disadvantages as well as advantages in dividend stripping, as it is described. But to most people it is an occult science, lt. has overtones of mystery and so on. The Treasurer on occasions has apparently felt that I was hostile, rather than sympathetic, towards him. On this issue 1 am at one with him and I acknowledge the practical difficulties involved when the law takes a certain view. The law tries to set out a code of behaviour. I have often quoted the view of Mr Justice Mansfield of the British courts that an individual is entitled, if he wants to, to drive a coach and horses through the law, but the law is also entitled to block such people. I am on the side of the law in blocking these activities 1 have been speaking about.

One of the difficulties in our system is that the majority of people who are described as taxpayers have no ability whatever to evade their proper and legal responsibilities. But there is the clever group who, by one means or another, within or without the law, or by means of the interpretation of the law, reduce the tax payable by them and this short fall in revenue has to be made up by those who have no legitimate device by which they can reduce their taxes. I and my Party are with the Treasurer on any legitimate attempt to close these loopholes to those who might be described as the shrewd lawyers in the community; alt praise to their professional ability but no praise to their zeal as far as bending the law is concerned.

Debate (on motion by Mr Crean) adjourned.

page 4455

INCOME TAX (INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS) BILL 1971

Bill presented by Mr Snedden, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr SNEDDEN:
Treasurer · Bruce · LP

– I move:

That the Bill be now read a second time. This Bill is complementary to the Income Tax Assessment Bil] 1972 and will effect minor technical amendments to section 15 of the Income Tax (International Agreements) Act. For the purpose of implementing provisions of double taxation agreements which require us to allow tax credits, it is necessary to ascertain the amount of Australian tax payable on the relevant part of a taxpayer’s income. Section 15 spells out the method by which this is to be done and refers, among other things, to rebate entitlements under section 46 of the Income Tax Assessment Act.

As a consequence of the proposal to have an extra provision - section 46a - in that Act to govern rebates on dividends arising from dividend stripping operations, references to the new provision will need to be incorporated in section 15 of the Income Tax (International Agreements) Act in contexts where references to section 46 currently appear. The amendments proposed by this Bill will effect the necessary variations in this regard. They are described in more detail in an explanatory memorandum being made available for the use of honourable members which also explains the technical features of the Income Tax Assessment Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.

Debate (on morion by Mr Crean) adjourned.

page 4455

PROPOSED LEGISLATION ON GENERAL INSURANCE

Ministerial Statement

Mr SNEDDEN:
Treasurer · Bruce · LP

– by leave - I wish to inform honourable members of the provisions which the. Government is considering including in the legislation being prepared for the supervision of general insurance companies in Australia. As I have stated previously in the House, it is not possible to introduce the proposed legislation in this session. A vast amount of ground has been covered, but a number of details have yet to be settled. In the meantime it will be helpful to all concerned if I outline in some detail the scheme of legislation which the Government has in mind.

The essential elements can be summarised quite briefly. General insurance companies would be brought under supervision by requiring them to obtain authorities to carry on general insurance business. By ‘general insurance’ I mean all classes of insurance other than life insurance, which is subject to the Life Insurance Act. To obtain an authority, a company would be required to satisfy standards of financial soundness prescribed in the legislation. After receiving an authority, the company would be obliged to maintain the prescribed standards and would be subject to continuous supervision to ensure that it did so. An authorised insurer who failed to maintain the standards, or who appeared to be in danger -of falling below the standards, could be subject to inquiry and investigation, which could lead to the company being issued with such directions as were necessary to deal with the situation and, if those measures were unsuccessful, to the withdrawal of the authority. These are the basic features of the proposed scheme of legislation as it would apply permanently to companies wishing to begin insurance business after the commencement date. Existing insurers carrying on business at present would be brought under the same system of supervision by means of transitional provisions in the legislation.

Before describing the proposed system of supervision in more detail, I have some comments to make on the purpose and scope of the scheme.

Purpose

Honourable members will recall that the Government’s decision to legislate for the supervision of general insurance companies was prompted by the failure of some insurance companies from mid-1970 onwards, following many years of stability in the insurance industry. The companies which failed were relatively small and of recent origin, but their failure caused some apprehension that other companies may not be financially sound.

The scheme of legislation proposes to tackle the problem by establishing the minimum standards of financial soundness to which I have referred and by providing a means of identifying and investigating companies which do not measure up to the standards. With a view to their reorganisation or orderly withdrawal from insurance business. In the longer term the scheme aims to prevent weak, inefficient companies from entering the business and by continuing supervision to keep the industry in a healthy condition.

It must be emphasised that the introduction of legislation could nol transform the financial condition of insurance companies overnight. It would lake time for companies which fell below the new requirements to be identified and for their situations to be rectified. The proposals however, open the way for a permanent solution of the problem. Furthermore, regulatory legislation of this kind cannot guarantee that no insolvencies will ever occur. It thus cannot guarantee that claims on insurance companies will always be met in full. If, however, financial stability of general insurance companies is established as a result of the legislation, the public will be given substantial protection in their insurance transactions.

In the preparation of the scheme of legislation, consideration was given to the possibility of establishing a fidelity or guarantee fund, to which insurers would contribute and which would be available to meet deficiencies arising from liquidations of insurance companies. However, this proposal would present difficulties, at least in present circumstances in Australia. It would require sound insurers to pay for the mistakes of weak insurers and it could be held to be unreasonable to compel sound insurers to do this at the present time, while doubts continue about the financial soundness of some companies. Furthermore, the creation of such a fund in present circumstances could tend to perpetuate weaknesses in the industry, by underwriting the activities of companies engaged in risky insurance practices.

It must be remembered that general insurance business in Australia is conducted for the most part by companies which are sound and efficiently managed. Only a very small percentage of the business is carried on by companies which could be regarded as financially doubtful. In considering ways pf supervising general insurance companies, the Government wants to avoid giving an impression that many insurance companies are weak and also does not wish to bring down legislation which is so restrictive that it would stultify the business of the great majority of insurance companies.

Scope of (he Legislation

The Government’s decision, as announced, was that the Commonwealth should legislate for the supervision of general insurance companies. The scheme of legislation which has been prepared accordingly concentrates on setting up a system of supervision and does not enter into other fields, such as the issue of policies, premium rates, the payment of claims and other contractual relationships between insurance companies and policy owners.

Insurance Business

Turning now to the details of the scheme of legislation, insurance business- would be defined as at present in section 3 of the Insurance Act 1932-1966 and would continue to exclude the types of business at present excluded, namely, life insurance business and accident insurance business undertaken solely in connection with life insurance business; benefits provided by a friendly society or a trade union for its members or their dependants; employer and employee superannuation schemes; funeral benefits schemes; and the business of insuring exclusively the property of a religious organisation. In addition, business carried on by medical and hospital benefits organisations registered under the National Health Act would be excluded and also self-insurers at present exempt under section 15 of the Insurance Act.

Administration

The legislation would provide for the appointment of a commissioner, who would be responsible for the administration, subject to the directions of the Treasurer.

Authorisation of Insurers

The legislation would prohibit the carrying on of insurance business other than by a company authorised to carry on that business under the Act. Applications would be made to the Commissioner, supported by information about the company and its financial position and prospects. The Treasurer would be empowered to grant or refuse to grant an authority and to attach conditions to an authority, but an authority would not be granted where the Treasurer, on receipt of a report from the Commissioner, was nol satisfied as to the applicant’s financial soundness as determined by the criteria for financial soundness spelt out in the legislation. Companies would be required to satisfy the following main requirements: A minimum paid-up capital of the order of $200,000, or the equivalent in capital funds in the case of a company not limited by shares; a solvency margin of assets over all liabilities excluding liabilities to shareholders, equal to 15 per cent of annual premium income or a money amount equal to half the minimum paid-up capital requirements whichever is the greater; a margin of assets in Australia over liabilities in Australia, excluding liabilities to shareholders, calculated in accordance with the solvency formula; satisfactory arrangements for reinsurance; reputable and efficient ownership and management; and capacity to meet obligations.

With regard to the solvency requirement, I should mention that this is a test commonly used in insurance legislation overseas. Its effectiveness depends largely on the assets of the company being valued on a conservative basis and its liabilities being accounted for fully. For this reason, it is proposed that there should be a number of supporting provisions relating to assets and liabilities. It is not proposed that the investment policies of insurance companies should be controlled, but certain assets would be excluded for the purposes of the margin of solvency calculations and provisions in respect of underwriting liabilities would be placed under close supervision.

Transitional Arrangements

The transitional arrangements would provide for all insurers who are carrying on business as at the date of this statement and who made application to be authorised to continue to carry on business. Tt is expected that the majority would be able to comply with the financial requirements which I have outlined, but special arrangements would be necessary to deal with those which could not do so. It is envisaged that an exemption would be provided for companies which could not meet the minimum paid-up capital requirement, but could meet the other requirements. Companies which could not meet the other requirements at the time of application, but which demonstrated a capacity to meet the requirements within 2 years would be given time to comply. In the remaining cases, action would be taken to investigate their affairs, under the inquiry and investigation provisions of the legislation. Where appropriate, directions might be issued for the reorganisation of a company, but if no alternative could be found, steps would be put in train to terminate the business.

Continuous Supervision

The effectiveness of the proposed system of supervision would depend to a large extent on the range and reliability of the information received by the administration. The information should not only enable the insurer’s compliance with the financial standards to be policed, but also provide an early warning of any tendency for a company’s financial position to weaken. It is proposed that all authorised insurers should be required to furnish annually in respect of their Australian business a balance sheet, a solvency statement, an underwriting account and a profit and loss and appropriation account, all of which would need to be audited by approved auditors. They would also be required to furnish annually statistical returns showing, by class of business, premiums earned, provisions for outstanding claims, claims incurred, underwriting results and reinsurance arrangements, together with a return showing the run-off of claims for selected classes of business. In addition, there would be quarterly returns of selected assets and liabilities and monthly returns of premiums, claims and expenses.

The Commissioner would be empowered to require explanations of items in any of the accounts and returns and, if not satisfied, to give directions for variation. Members of the public would have access on request to copies of an authorised insurer’s balance sheet, underwriting account, profit and loss and appropriation account as submitted to the Commissioner, either at his office or at the principal office of the company. All other returns would be regarded as confidential. It is proposed, however, that selected information from the returns should be processed and published as aggregates for general statistical purposes. This would be an important by-product of the legislation, providing information which would be valuable to insurers in managing their businesses, as well as being of importance generally within the community.

Inquiry and Investigation

The scheme of legislation proposes that, if it appeared to the Commissioner that there was cause for concern about a company’s financial position, he would be empowered to demand additional information about the position. If it appeared that there was a risk of the company not being able to comply with its obligations under the legislation the Commissioner would be empowered to serve a notice on the company to show cause why the company should not be investigated. The possibility is that, on receipt of such a notice, the company would take action lo correct the situation. If the company failed to show cause to the Commissioner’s satisfaction, an investigation could be made.

Following an investigation, the Commissioner would be required to give the company a summary of the conclusions and he could issue to the company such directions as to its insurance business as he thought necessary and proper to deal with the situation disclosed, including a direction that the company should not issue policies in respect of all or part of its insurance business. The intention would be that every effort should be made to avoid failure. Directions given by the Commossioner would be subject to appeal, but it is proposed that, for the protection of the public, a direction not to issue policies should be effective immediately pending completion of the hearing.

Cancellation of Authority

Provision would be made for the cancellation of authorities in particular circumstances, including a voluntary termination of an insurance business as well as a termination following an investigation.

Appeals lt is proposed that a special administrative tribunal should be established under the legislation, with a judge as chairman and with 2 members experienced in insurance, but not a director, officer or employee of a company or organisation actively engaged in insurance business. The tribunal would hear appeals on administrative decisions under the legislation which would be largely of a technical nature. Provision would be made for appeal to a court of appropriate jurisdiction on matters involving questions of law in the legislation. The outline I have given summarises in broad terms the provisions which the Government has in mind in respect of the authorisation and continuous supervision of general insurance companies. There arc, however, many other matters that would need to be provided for.

Deposit Requirement

The deposit requirement is not expected to serve a useful purpose after the proposed system of supervision has become fully established and insurance companies come under continuous observation. Increases in deposits which were large enough to give policy owners a high degree of protection in the event of a company’s failure could put some companies out of business, including some small, but sound companies. A large deposit requirement could have the effect of weakening a company’s financial position by limiting the availability of its assets for use in its business. Under the proposed new system of supervision there would be no need for large deposits to keep excessively small companies from entering into insurance business. That would be done by the minimum paid-up capital requirement and the solvency margin. It is accordingly proposed that the deposit requirement would carry on under the Insurance Act 1932-1966 until the new system is fully established and that the deposits would be released 2 years after the commencement of the new legislation, or such later date as may be proclaimed. The Insurance Act 1932-1966 contains no provision for a release of deposits of this kind and a legislative amendment would be necessary to implement the proposal.

Lloyd’s Underwriters

The system of supervision which I have outlined relates to companies incorporated in the usual way. Lloyd’s of London, who have carried on insurance business in Australia for many years, do not fit easily into that kind of legislation, because Lloyd’s underwriters are individuals with unlimited personal liability who form syndicates of varying numbers to undertake insurance transactions in many parts of the world. Discussions are in progress with Lloyd’s through the general counsel in Australia for Lloyd’s on ways in which Lloyd’s underwriters could be brought within the scope of the proposed legislation.

State and Territory Legislation

There is a wide variety of legislation relating to general insurance in the States and the Commonwealth Territories. Some of it is of a supervisory kind, under which licences are issued for companies to carry on general insurance business, or certain classes of general insurance business. The remainder is for various purposes, such as payment of stamp duties and fire brigade levies, and the insurance provisions in a variety of laws on subjects such as hirepurchase, housing and local government. With regard to the supervisory legislation, such as the Queensland Insurance Act, which exercises control over the whole field of general insurance, and legislation in the States and Territories for the supervision of companies carrying on workers’ compensation and compulsory third party insurance, the State governments are anxious to keep their controls in being for a period after the proposed Commonwealth legislation came into force.

External Territories lt is proposed that the legislation should be capable of extension to the external Territories of the Commonwealth by proclamation, but that provision would he made for exemption, on the advice of the Minister for External Territories, of substantially indigenous insurers in the Territory of Papua New Guinea, undertaking insurance business only in the Territory, from some or all of the provisions of the legislation. This is reasonable, because it would take time for the Commonwealth administration to identify companies which are financially unsound and to take whatever action might be needed to rectify matters. The scheme of legislation envisages appropriate provisions being made to safeguard the supervisory legislation in the States and Territories for an interim period. Provisions would also be included to safeguard the remaining State legislation on general insurance. Similar exemption would also be allowed for certain insurance schemes involving some administration sponsorship.

Stale Insurance insurance business conducted by State governments and their instrumentalities falls largely outside the Commonwealth’s constitutional powers, and in any event there is no question of the financial soundness of the State Government Insurance Offices. However, those Offices form a large part - about 20 per cent - of the Australian insurance market. Discussions are going on with the State governments as to the extent to which they would be prepared to cooperate voluntarily in the spirit of the legislation, particularly in matters such as the furnishing of information without which Austraiian insurance statistics would be seriously incomplete.

Insurance Brokers

Following representations on the need to bring insurance brokers under supervision, it is proposed that the Commonwealth should legislate for that purpose. As honourable members know, the role of brokers in insurance transactions is to advise members of the public and to negotiate on their behalf with insurance companies. Many complaints have been received of abuses of this function and a broad measure of agreement exists that brokers should be brought under supervision. There is also wide support among the State governments, the insurance companies and representatives of insurance brokers that the supervision should be conducted by the Commonwealth. The main essentials of a system of licensing insurance brokers, on the basis of prescribed standards of character, education, experience and financial trustworthiness, are already fairly clear from investigations and discussions which have been going on during the year. The Government will be pressing on with the completion of this work in conjunction with the completion of the proposed legislation for the supervision of the general insurance companies.

Conclusion

I should like to conclude by thanking all the representatives of the State governments and members of the insurance industry who have assisted in various ways in the development of the proposals which I have outlined. It would not have been possible to reach the present stage without the information and advice which they have freely provided, lt is a good example of co-operation between government and industry towards a common objective of raising the financial standards of all engaged in the large and important business of general insurance. It will be evident to honourable members from the summary I have given of the main provisions which are under consideration that the preparation of this legislation is a substantial task. We shall be going ahead with the work with all possible speed and I hope that the legislation will be ready for introduction early in the next session. I present the following: paper-

Proposed legislation on general insurance - Ministerial statement, 9th December 1971.

Motion (by Mr Fairbairn) proposed:

That the House take note of the paper.

Mr CREAN:
Melbourne Ports

– The Opposition welcomes the intent of this legislation which at least spells out for the future a code of behaviour as far as what is described as general insurance is concerned. I think that the Treasurer (Mr Snedden) described it as a large and important business. I do not think it is always realised that in aggregate the premiums of what are described as general insurance - covering such things as fire, marine, workers compensation and housing insurance - amount to over $ 1,000m annually. The amount of premiums is getting pretty close to the amount which the Government spends annually on defence.

Mr Snedden:

– lt is half that amount.

Mr CREAN:

– Government defence expenditure is about $l,200m. It is not half. The Treasurer will have to learn his arithmetic a little bit better than that. This amount is getting close to the magnitude of defence expenditure, but nevertheless up to date it has not been subject to any overall regulation. 1 shall quote section 51 of the Constitution, that great section which delineates the fields in which the Commonwealth may make laws for the peace, order and good government of the Commonwealth. Placitum (xiv.) states:

Insurance, other than State insurance; also State insurance extending beyond the limits of the State concerned:

At least we entered into the field of life assurance and were quite successful in carrying out that responsibility. Many years ago when the Treasurer was in a less distinguished position - I think that he may just have emerged as the Attorney-General - I asked why the Government did not appoint a Commissioner to be responsible for this type of insurance. If he looks back in the Hansard I think he will find that in the early 1960s or the late 1950s I asked why the Government did not appoint in the field of insurance other than life assurance a commissioner similar to the one who operates in the life assurance field, and I think the Treasurer suggested to me in reply that he did not think it was necessary. At least he has now acknowledged this need. I pay tribute also to one of my colleagues, one of the new members, the honourable member for Hawker (Mr Jacobi), who has had some experience in this field. He has raised this kind of matter also. As recently as the last debate on the Treasury Estimates only a few weeks ago I suggested - I appreciate the difficulties in legislating in this field - that we have somebody to examine general insurance; that the Government should appoint a Commissioner who could at least explore the field in advance and indicate the scope of the legislation required. It seems to me that the Treasurer has at least now indicated a code.

The need for this kind of legislation has been brought home to us recently by the experience of the sort of straw companies that have operated particularly in the field of motor insurance. I think it is a terrible thing in the community when literally anybody with virtually no capital, and not having even to indicate any provision in relation to the policies he writes or in relation to the risk that may be incurred, does not have to spell out any kind of ratio. At least the Treasurer has now indicated that legislative action will be taken in this field and 1 commend him for it. Again I thank him for indicating in advance the nature of the proposed legislation. I think we appreciate the difficulties that are involved in bringing this legislation forward, but I hope it will be introduced early in the next session. When the honourable member for Berowra (Mr Hughes), who was in the chamber at the beginning of the debate but who is not here now, was AttorneyGeneral I asked him a question at least 12 months ago about whether certain straw companies were using the facilities of registration in Canberra when in fact they were operating in other States. I must say that I was assailed by all sorts of telegrams the day after I raised this matter with the Treasurer’s colleague. AH the companies that protested their innocence have since gone broke. At least it was indicative that there was at least a smell in that field.

Motor insurance is one type of general insurance. In this country something like 500,000 new motor cars are bought each year. Apart from America and Canada we have almost the highest ratio of motor cars to population of any place in the world. So motor insurance is an important field of insurance. Other types are workers’ compensation and fire insurance. Premiums for all these types of insurance add up to something like $ 1,000m annually. At least J welcome the proposition that now, belatedly, the Commonwealth is moving into the general insurance field. The Government having acknowledged the need to go into this field I hope that it will move as quickly as is possible, and I would hope that when we come back, discounting for the moment all the talk about an election later next year, we will be able to consider this legislation on insurance with some degree of tranquillity and some degree of detail. I hope that the Treasurer and his advisers will press on in the next 2 or 3 months and have the Bill ready for us when we resume next year.

I hope that the Treasurer will lay the Bill on the table for a few weeks so that those who are involved can give us the benefit of their expertise. I had to take part in a broadcast today, and someone said: There is a lack of expertise on the Opposition side’. I said: ‘ “Expertise” is an awful word’. I think there is a place for expertise, but once we start talking about expertise it gets a bit tedious. But at least the expert can tell the not-so-well advised in a field what he thinks should be done, but ultimately it is up to the Ministers to determine the code of operation. At least the Treasurer tonight has spelt out a code in some detail, and I thank him for it. My only regret is that the Commonwealth did not decide to enter into this field much earlier. I am directing my remarks not so much to the Treasurer as to his predecessors.

I hope that when we come back here in February ari*d early March this will be one of the first Bills placed before us and that we will have time to look at it in detail and have a proper committee debate on it. Committee debates where we can get down to details are lacking in this House. I would hope that the Treasurer will not think that the only expertise or the only expert information available is on the Government side and that he will give kindly consideration to sympathetic amendments moved from the Opposition side in this field.

Debate (on motion by Mr Giles) adjourned.

page 4462

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr BENNETT:
Swan

– I wish to make a personal explanation.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Does the honourable member claim to have been misrepresented?

Mr BENNETT:

– I claim to have been misrepresented by an article published in the ‘Daily News’ of 2nd December headed MP: Too Many Pauper Migrants’. The report is so abbreviated from the Hansard that it gives the impression that I was criticising the actual migrants themselves when in fact the Hansard shows I was requesting an inquiry into the matter of hardship, housing and employment security and an assurance on these matters to be given to migrants. Further the article indicated that I had said that by bringing these people to Australia the Government was damaging the country’s international reputation. In fact the Hansard shows that I said:

These are real problems which not only are causing damage to our international reputation.

I was referring to comments 1 had previously made in my speech to wrong information given to intending and actual migrants by official Australian sources. In no way did my speech reflect on the actual migrants, who have my complete sympathy and support.

page 4462

QUESTION

MERINO EXPORT EMBARGO

Ministerial Statement Mr SINCLAIR (New England - Minister for Primary Industry) (9.0) - by leave - The Government has decided to accept the recommendation of the Australian Wool Industry Conference that the partial relaxation of the embargo on the export of merino rams be extended for a further 3 years. The limited relaxation will be subject to the same conditions which applied in the past 2 years. On this occasion, however, the Wool Industry Conference has recommended that the partial relaxation be for a period of 3 years instead of being reviewed annually as in the past. The conditions which apply to the 3-year partial relaxation which will commence on 1st February 1972 are:

  1. Not more than 300 merino rams may be sold for export in any one year.
  2. The prohibition on the export of merino ewes, semen and fertilised ova will be continued.
  3. Export approvals will be issued only for merino rams that have been sold at public auction sales nominated by the State member associations of the Australian Association of Stud Merino Breeders.
  4. The partial relaxation will be reviewed before the end of the 3-year period.

The current period of relaxation of the embargo does not expire until 31st January 1972. It has been necessary, however, to make an early decision regarding the continuation of the relaxation so that potential overseas buyers would have adequate time to make arrangements to operate at the next Sydney ram sales which will be held early in February 1972. The merino export embargo has been a controversial subject since it was imposed in 1929. Over the years conflicting views have been held on this subject in the wool growing industry.

In November 1968 the Australian Wool Industry Conference, after obtaining expert advice on all aspects of the embaro and after thoroughly considering the matter, recommended a limited relaxation of the embargo initially for one year. This recommendation was adopted by the Government but was not implemented until 1st February 1970. The reason for the delay in implementing the recommendation was to give the opponents of the relaxation full opportunity to make representations to the Conference. In the event, however, the Conference reaffirmed its original recommendation. Again, on the recommendation of the Conference the limited relaxation of the embargo was extended for another year as from 1st February 1971. The present decision will extend the limited relaxation until 31st December 1975. Of the 300 rams authorised for sale for export in the first year of the relaxation, 222 were sold to various overseas countries. In the second year the number sold to overseas buyers was only 50. For growers there has been some uncertainty and considerable argument on the effects of the partial relaxation of the merino export embargo. There are some important issues which should be kept in mind in any examination of these arguments. Significantly there is the serious financial plight in which many and indeed most merino studs now find themselves. Ram sales have slipped alarmingly in the last 2 years and these sales constitute a major part of the income of these studs. it is important for the maintenance of the Australian wool industry that in particular the parent studs should not suffer such a contraction of income that they should move out of ram breeding altogether. Already most have been forced to diversify where this is possible. Indeed, it is claimed that through the application of the embargo on exports these studs have made a significant contribution to other sections of the wool industry in accepting that there should not be overseas competition for their rams. In the present economic circumstances of of the wool industry and of the ram breeders, it is important that no undue barrier be placed on providing some increased competition at auctions when because of slackness in demand so many of the rams have had to be sold for slaughter instead of breeding purposes. It is often forgotten that Australian merino breeders have been denied for many years the right to export their produce like most other Australians. This has deprived them of a useful source of additional income. Such income has never been needed more by our merino studs than it is today when the critical situation of the wool growing industry has drastically reduced the demand for their rams. The loss of this income plus the depressed wool prices have placed our studs in a very precarious position.

It is not my intention to canvass arguments for and against the lifting of the merino export embargo. The arguments have been examined critically by the Australian Wool Industry Conference and it is on its advice that the Government is acting. Since the decisions in February 1970, delivery of the rams has been severely disrupted by the ‘black ban* imposed by the Australian Council of Trade Unions on the handling of merino rams sold for export with a view to preventing their export from Australia. This ‘black ban’ is still maintained by the ACTU and has a demonstrable effect on the confidence with which overseas buyers have operated at auction sales. Indeed, the action of the ACTU has caused great difficulties, expense and inconvenience to both the buyers and sellers of the rams. They have been forced to resort to making private arrangements in order to export the rams and these have been very costly. No doubt the action taken by the ACTU has also discouraged overseas buyers from purchasing rams.

Mr SINCLAIR:
CP

– The honourable gentleman might be interested to know that while I was at a meeting of the Food and Agriculture Organisation I was told that a profit of several thousand per cent was made on the sale of a ram in South America, the ram having been purchased at a sale here, but because of the uncertainty of delivery the buyers were not prepared to operate in Sydney but they were prepared to operate in South America.

Such advantage as stud merino breeders could derive under the present partial relaxation of the embargo is thus largely frustrated by the action of the ACTU. The intervention of the unions is all the more deplorable as the export of merino rams is in no sense an industrial issue. This is clearly a case of the ACTU interfering for political reasons in a field which is outside its area of industrial responsibility. In doing so it has frustrated legitimate commercial transactions and interfered with Australia’s meeting its obligation to overseas trading partners. I sincerely hope that the ACTU will now reconsider its position. I present the following paper:

Merino Export Embargo- Ministerial Statement, 9th December 1971.

Motion (by Mr Fairbairn) proposed:

That the House take note of the paper.

Dr PATTERSON:
Dawson

– 1 cannot speak on behalf of the Australian Council of Trade Unions but I can assure the Minister for Primary Industry (Mr Sinclair) that the Australian Labor Party has not in any way changed its opposition to the relaxation or the partial relaxation of the merino ram embargo. The views of the Opposition are exactly as they were before and they will stay that way until the Government presents evidence in this Parliament, allows it to be debated and a vote taken both in this House and in the Senate to support the relaxation of the ban. The last time that a vote was taken in the Parliament was in the Senate and the Senate rejected the Government’s recommendations. As the Government was not bound by the decision of the Senate, its action being taken by regulation and not by an Act of Parliament or an amendment to an Act, the Government contemptuously ignored the decision of the Senate and despite repeated efforts by the Opposition the Government refused to have the matter debated and a vote taken. I would remind the Parliament that the Government is not consistent in this matter. We recall that when the reserve price scheme for wool was being mooted approximately 6 or 7 years ago - and this was a controversial issue just as the merino embargo is a controversial issue and it has been since 1929 - the Government did not act as it has now acted. It put this controversial issue to the wool growers of Australia to make a decision. The same preamble was applicable in that the Australian Wool Industry Conference had in fact recommended in favour of a reserve price scheme. I want to make it quite clear that the Opposition completely supports a reserve price scheme. A referendum was held but unfortunately, because of tremendous confusion throughout the industry, caused by intensive lobbying and misunderstanding, the wool growers voted against the scheme. This was, I believe, perhaps the biggest blow to the wool growers in financial terms, in organisation, etc., for a very long time. But we cannot look back. We must look forward.

If this Government is to be consistent over this controversial issue of the merino embargo it should allow a referendum to be held, but it has not allowed a referendum. The Opposition has not changed its view. As 1 have already said, I am unable to speak on behalf of the ACTU. It is entirely a matter for the ACTU to make up its own mind on this issue. However the ALP is still opposed to any relaxation of the embargo on the export of merino rams until, I repeat, there is a debate in this Parliament and until a vote is taken. In that debate the Government should put forward its evidence, scientific, economic and otherwise, to enable all members of this House to debate it, to weigh it up and to vote upon it. This, I believe, is only fair. It is of no use the Government saying the Opposition can raise it. We cannot raise it. We can raise it as a matter of urgency; we can raise it by way of a notice of motion. But as the Government well knows we cannot bring the matter to a vote unless the Government wants a vote on it. We know from experience that we have never been able to get a vote on matters of this kind.

Mr Sinclair:

– You can have a vote on the statement if you wish.

Dr PATTERSON:

– It is not a question of having the vote on the statement. We want a full scale debate on the issue. We have been told tonight that we can have only a limited number of speakers in this debate. The fact is that if the Government had allowed a full scale debate on this matter we would have been ready for it, as is the Government. I am quite certain that there are no members on the Government side other than the Minister ready to debate this question at length tonight. Therefore until we can have a full scale debate and until the views of the large number of small producers throughout

Australia are taken into account the Opposition has no alternative to questioning the Government and opposing the Minister’s statement. It is our job to do so.

It is all very well to say that the Government is putting forward a case on behalf of the stud breeders. I will not decry the stud breeders in any way. What the Minister has said about the parlous financial position of stud breeders is entirely correct. There is no question of that. But this is irrelevant in terms of the overall question of the wool industry itself.

Another point I want to make is that we do not know what the last vote taken by the Australian Wool Industry Conference was. I have no doubt that I could find out what the vote was if I wanted to do so. However, at the moment I do not know what the vote was. But certainly the first vote on the AWIC decision was by no means unanimous. In fact, there was considerable opposition from very powerful wool organisations. I notice that the Minister for Primary Industry, who is at the table, gave no indication of what the composition of the vote of the AWIC was at this time.I can only assume that the result was the same as last time. I could be wrong and it could have been unanimous but I do not think it was. I do not think it was unanimous judging by the number of letters that members of the Opposition are still getting from organisations and growers and particularly, I might say, from many growers in electorates around the area represented by the honourable member for Hume (Mr Pettitt).

Mr Pettitt:

– When did you get your last letter?

Dr PATTERSON:

– Last week.

Mr Pettitt:

– It would be more like 2 years ago.

Dr PATTERSON:

– If I say last week I mean last week. There is no need for the honourable member to be smart because he does not know. This is typical of his ignorance in this matter.

Mr Pettitt:

– Why would they write to you? It is you who are ignorant.

Mr Daly:

– He is on a trip.

Dr PATTERSON:

– The honourable member said that he is on a trip. I have known for 6 years that the honourable member has been on a trip.

Mr Sinclair:

– He is not a bad farmer all the same. Ho probably knows more about rams than you do.

Dr PATTERSON:

– I do not doubt that.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Order! I suggest that the House come to order.

Dr PATTERSON:

– I have often wondered what his capabilities were, and the Minister for Primary Industry now has told us.

This is a serious problem. We believe that the Government has taken blatant action in not allowing this Parliament to debate a controversial issue. We have said this many times in the House and we will continue to say it until the Minister allows this Parliament to debate the issue. When I say that the Minister should allow the Parliament to debate it I mean that this matter should be put to a vote in this House and in the Senate. The Opposition will oppose this relaxation of the merino export embargo. We will do so on behalf of thousands of wool growers and particularly the small wool growers who have completely given this Government away.

Mr Grassby:

Mr Deputy Speaker–

Debate (on motion by Mr Fox) adjourned.

Suspension of Standing Orders

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
Monaro · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I move:

When this ban was first proposed to this House in November 1929 by the Scullin Government, the fullest opportunity was given to all sides of the House to debate the issue and to decide whether or not the ban should be imposed. The fact is - and I was present on that occasion - that the issue was debated by members on all sides of the House and there was complete agreement in the Parliament from the Liberal Party, the Country Party and the Labor Party, which was then in government.

Mr Grassby:

– Unanimous.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Yes, the House was unanimous that this ban should be imposed. Therefore the only view that can be taken of that debate in the House of

Representatives, the only decision that has ever been enabled to be taken on the issue in the House, was a unanimous decision in favour of this ban in the interests of the Australian nation. If we are not allowed tonight to debate this matter the will of the House, on the only occasion it was ever expressed, is being thwarted. This is the very important reason, Mr Deputy Speaker, why 1 have moved that the Standing Orders be suspended to enable this most important matter to be debated.

It is all very well for the Minister for Primary Industry (Mr Sinclair) to rise in his place, make a series of misleading statements and then have his lieutenant move the adjournment of the debate. Because of the vital interest of the Australian people in this matter, an opportunity should be given for the facts to be stated. The Minister will not deny that the Australian Wool Industry Conference does not speak for all Australian wool growers on (his matter. As the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson) said there are many thousands of wool growers, many of them small growers, who are opposed to the relaxation of the ban.

As further evidence that this matter should be debated now in the Parliament I report to you, Sir, that I have taken part in many public debates in the electorate of Eden-Monaro and in the adjoining electorate of Hume against advocates of the relaxation of the ban and never on even one occasion have those largely attended meetings of wool growers agreed that the ban should be relaxed. On the contrary, on most occasions the vote of the wool growers at these meetings against the relaxation of the ban has been overwhelming.

Mr Deputy Speaker, it is for these reason* that it is most important that the matte! be debated. I want particularly to refer to the Minister’s aspersion on the trade union movement of this country.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I remind the honourable member for EdenMonaro that the subject matter before the House is the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders. The debate must be limited to the reason why the Standing Orders should be suspended. Any other matter that the honourable member raises will be outside the scope of the motion.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I fully understand and accept your ruling. I believe that it is most important that there should be an immediate statement of the position in relation to the industrial movement which was so wrongly stated to the House by the Minister.I confine myself to saying that the action taken by the trade union movement was taken at the request of delegations of wool growers.

Mr Grassby:

– That is exactly right.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I further assert that the right of a worker in industry to decide what he shall do wilh the product of his labour is equally as great as the right of the studmaster to decide what should be done with his product.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I suggest to the honourable member again that he is transgressing the Standing Orders.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– 1 am not doing so deliberately, Sir. I hope that you will bear with me. I am a young member and I am not sure about procedures, but I will go ahead and rely on you for your guidance from time to time. Why should the Parliament not have the right to debate and vote on this vital issue? Why is the honourable member for Hume, particularly, unwilling to allow a debate and a vote on a matter of vital importance to his electorate? Why cannot I put to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, the case that it is urgent that the House should be allowed to have a debate and a vote because, as the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson) has pointed out, in the only vote ever taken in this Parliament under this Government - a vote taken in the Senate-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock:

– Order! The honourable member for Eden-Monaro said he wanted some advice. I will give him some more advice. If he keeps transgressing the Standing Orders I will ask the honourable member to resume his seat.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

- Mr Deputy Speaker, I do hope that you will advise me. To what should I confine my arguments if I cannot speak on the vital importance of getting a vote on this issue?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-The honourable member should know the Standing Orders of this House. The substantive matter of the debate is not the subject before this House at this moment. The honourable member for Eden-Monaro knows that the only matter before this House is the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders. The matter into which the honourable member is proceeding is the subject for a full debate and is not before the House.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr Deputy Speaker, I now see and fully understand your ruling. I should not canvass the merits of whether there should be a ban or a relaxation of the ban. I should and L will confine myself from now on to the question of whether this House should be enabled now to debate this issue and vote upon it. I rest my case upon the fact that this House has never been given an opportunity of casting a vote on a matter which is of vital importance to the whole of the Australian people and that the only vole ever taken on this subject in the Parliament was taken in the Senate and it opposed the action which the Government is taking, indicating therefore that the action being taken by the Government may be in defiance of. the will of this Parliament and of the Australian people. That question can be resolved only by giving this Parliament now the opportunity to debate upon the issue. I will not discuss the merits of relaxing or retaining the ban except to say that all the arguments which have been produced on that matter in this House have never yet been-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I would suggest that the honourable member may not put forward arguments as to why certain factors have not been given consideration.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I will not be putting forward one of those arguments.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I would suggest that the honourable member does not transgress either by reminding the House why he is not going to mention certain subjects at this present stage.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am simply informing the House that I am not going to mention subjects which are not relevant to the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders. That is my only reason for mentioning this.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I remind the honourable member for EdenMonaro that he has been a member of this House for a long time and I also remind him that other members have been in this House for a reasonable amount of time and have learned some of the lessons of being a member of this House. 1 would suggest that the honourable member stays within the Standing Orders.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am doing my very best to do that. 1 shall conclude by saying that, to my knowledge, none of the arguments which has been advanced against the ban has been in any way changed by the Minister’s statement tonight and, therefore, it is the more important that this House should be given an opportunity now of debating and voting upon the issue when, I believe, such arguments would be produced and such a vote would be taken as would prevent the carrying on with this iniquitous proposal.

Mr GRASSBY:
Riverina

- Mr Deputy Speaker, 1 rise to second the motion for the suspension ot Standing Orders and 1 shall speak to that motion now. I do not intend to canvass the question of whether the ban should be raised or retained. I think I can put my case rather well as more than 50 per cent of all merino studs in the nation are located in the Riverina and 1 want specifically to bring to the attention of the House the dilemma which this Parliament should resolve by agreeing to the suspension of Standing Orders and by the debate which would then ensue. Tn the Riverina there are many great stud breeders. They face the dilemma of this Parliament, and the dilemma can be resolved only by the adoption of this motion to suspend Standing Orders to give Parliament the opportunity to debate this matter thoroughly, adequately and in depth. 1 draw attention to one facet of this problem, apart from my own involvement in representing half of all of the merino studs in Australia and namely, to the importance of this motion of the suspension of Standing Orders in relation to the position of stud breeders. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) many months ago said in this Parliament that it is important for the House of Representatives to come to a resolution on this matter. He said this against a background that the Australian Senate - the other half of this sovereign Parliament of the nation - had voted against the lifting of the ban on the export of merino rams. The Leader of the Opposition on that occasion said that it was the perogative of the House of Representatives to debate this matter and to come to a resolution. He said that whatever was the resolution by a majority of the members of this House, of course he would be bound by it as would all other honourable members. I hope that that is clearly understood by all honourable members. What the Leader of the Opposition was saying and what I reiterate and what all members of the Opposition reiterate tonight is that the decision to rescind this ban which was imposed a generation ago was made administratively by the Government. It was rejected by one half of the sovereign Parliament of the nation. This half of the Parliament has nol yet had an opportunity to debate it or to vote upon it. This is the essential issue as has been pointed out by the distinguished and honourable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr Allan Fraser) who, like myself, has a deep and vested interest in the welfare of studs and the people who arc associated with them.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I did not hear the interjection of the honourable member for Hume (Mr Pettitt) but I suggest that if he wants to speak you should give him the opportunity to do so because I should like to hear him on the subject. However I do not want to be misled by interjections at this stage. I simply say very quietly and positively that the members of the Australian Labor Party respect the sovereign right of the Parliament to determine these issues. We maintain that we have not yet been given the opportunity to debate in depth in the House of Representatives the issue of the lifting of the ban on the export of merino rams. What we have said is that we would demand and ask for this right on behalf of all the people we represent. If the matter were resolved by a majority vote of the House of Representatives - gathered, I would hope, as a democratic body, free of petty Party allegiances on such an important matter - to lift the ban, it would be incumbent on all of us to see to it that hz ban was lifted. But of course if it were not the desire of this House - the sovereign House; the House of initiative in the Federal Parliament - to do this, obviously we would all be duty bound to suspend the judgment and to leave things as they are.

Mr Whittorn:

– You want your breeders to keep their rams.

Mr GRASSBY:

– I accept the interjection from my honourable friend on the other sids who asks: What do I want my breeders to do. He has interjected quite properly; I do not object, at all. I should like to address myself to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, but 1 should also like to tell my honourable friend that my breeders have 2 voices on this issue. The very fine family of Killen has said that in no circumstances should this ban be lifted. On other occasions the management of the Uardry stud, which is one of the most distinguished studs in the nation and a very fine stud, said this ban should be lifted.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Riverina accepted the interjection with great glee because by replying to it he could transgress the Standing Orders. As he heard the interjection and perhaps now has answered it sufficiently, 1 remind him again of the Standing Orders. I assume that the honourable member hopes that this House will agree to the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders, in which case I would regret very much to find that by allowing him to transgress the standing order on the motion to suspend Standing Orders I had allowed the situation to develop where the honourable member had nothing left to say when the House agreed to the motion.

Mr GRASSBY:

- Mr Deputy Speaker, your charity is notorious, and I want to express my appreciation. You are quite right. I have finished my reply to the interjection. I did not want to feel that a member on the Government side had been left without an answer. But enough of that, I agree with you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Having said that, let me return to the question of the importance of this motion to suspend the Standing Orders. If we, as the House of Representatives, are not going to agree to debate this question concerning the export of merino rams in depth, thoroughly and properly, obviously no decision can be made. Let us forget all the parties, let us forget all the party politics and let us forget all the normal confrontations in this Parliament. Let us just deal, for example, with the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I do not mind what the honourable member for Riverina forgets as long as he remembers the Standing Orders.

Mr GRASSBY:

– If I forget them, I understand that the honourable member for Mallee will remind me of them. All I wanted to say was this: We have a division of opinion in the nation on this question concerning the export of merino rams. We have a division of opinion in the Parliament. That division of opinion has already been enshrined in the resolution of the Senate - one-half of the sovereign Parliament of the nation of Australia. In our House we have not yet been able to reach a substantive decision. Of course, I realise that if honourable members opposite do not want to do anything about it. if they do not want to reach a substantive decision, if they want to hide for reasons best known to themselves, they will not vote for this motion. But the motion before the Parliament is to suspend Standing Orders to enable all of us in this Parliament - whether we happento be temporarily the Minister for Primary Industry or temporarily the member for Hume or the member for Riverina, it does not really matter–

Mr Giles:

– The honourable member for Riverina may be temporary.

Mr GRASSBY:

– Let us all recognise our fallibility and exposure to what might happen in the new year. I think that at this stage it is much more important that honourable members opposite should remember this than we on this side of the chamber. All I want to say in summation is that here we are asking for one-half of the sovereign Parliament - the House of Representatives - to make a decision on this question concerning the export of merino rams. We have not yet been permitted to do so. We have not yet been permitted to debate the question. We have not yet been permitted to vote on it. This is what my distinguished friend the honourable mem ber for Eden-Monaro says. He has not said that he is for or against the export of merino rams. He did not say that in his speech and I have not said that.

Mr Giles:

– You represent merino studs. Which way would you vote?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr GRASSBY:

– I understand your tolerance, Mr Deputy Speaker, on the eve of the Christmas break, but it is very nice to hear my friend the honourable member for Angas ask which way I would vote. May I say to the honourable member for Angas through you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that if he finds his courage for once on behalf of the merino studs, as he did not find it on behalf of the wine grape growers, he can join us and I will tell him–

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr GRASSBY:

-I understand that you. Mr Deputy Speaker, are protecting him and he needs protection.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order! I suggest that interjections from my right should cease. It does not make it any easier for the Chair in trying to ask the honourable member for Riverina to stay within the Standing Orders to have interjections coming from the right hand side of the Chair, particularly when the interjections are enabling the honourable member for Riverina to come round on the outside of the Standing Orders. I suggest that the honourable member for Riverina might stay within the Standing Orders, and so might honourable members on my right.

Mr GRASSBY:

- Mr Deputy Speaker, on the eve of Christmas your erudition is commendable, andI bow to it. As a matter of fact, I accept the opportunity to return to the point at issue. MayI summate. The honourable member for Eden-Monaro has moved that we should suspend Standing Orders to enable the House of Representatives - at least one-half of the sovereign Parliament of Australia - to come to a resolution on a very important matter. This is the purpose in moving for the suspension of the Standing Orders. What the honourable member for Eden-Monaro has said, and what I say as the member for Riverina representing more than one-half of the merino studs of Australia, some of whom are in a desperate plight as a result of the

Government’s policy - is: Let us have this opportunity for debate and for a vote to be taken, because the Government has an undertaking from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) that if all members of the Parliament, democratically assembled without regard to party, favour or pressure, come to a decision on this question concerning the export of merino rams, then a i of us on all sides of the Parliament will bc duty bound to see that the flow of merino exports is continued, if that is desired, or that it is halted, if that is desired. What more democratic procedure could possibly be put forward?

I am sure that when the honourable member lor Eden-Monaro rose in his place he looked back over a quarter of a century of democratic practice, or lack of it, in this Parliament. Surely what he was saying tonight echoed the words of the distinguished Leader of the Opposition, when he said: ‘Whatever the Parliament determines we will try to fulfil’. What better could he say? What better earnestness of all our sincerity in this matter could be put forward? This is the earnestness and sincerity behind the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders. I might say that if the Standing Orders arc suspended, as has been proposed, then what we will do-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-I hope that the honourable member for Riverina is not going to tell us what he will say if the Standing Orders are suspended.

Mr GRASSBY:

– I am not, because I have confidence that perhaps there could be a change of heart and that in fact there will be an opportunity for me really to speak at length on this subject.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-I remind the honourable member for Riverina that there is another standing order which I have not mentioned yet but which he has also transgressed.

Mr GRASSBY:

- Mr Deputy Speaker, 1 appreciate your impartiality. I know that if you were not in the Chair you would vote for a democratic expression of opinion. But may I say this in summation? Let us vote for the motion to suspend Standing Orders. Let us have a debate on this question concerning the export of merino rams. Whichever way the vote goes I will pledge myself to implement the democratic decision of the House of Representatives on this controversial matter.

Mr Fox:

Mr Deputy Speaker, I seek leave to withdraw my motion that the debate be adjourned.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-The motion before the Chair at the moment is for the suspension of the Standing Orders. To that degree, at this given moment I cannot accept the proposal put by the honourable member for Henty. The honourable member for Henty cannot ask for leave to withdraw his motion until the House has dealt with the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders.

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · Darling Downs · LP

(9.391 - Dealing with the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders, whilst I appreciate the position which has been explained by the 2 members of the Opposition who have moved and seconded the motion. I should like to point out to the House that, first of all, <his was a ministerial statement. The practice of the House has been that when a ministerial statement is to be made an arrangement is entered into to allow the Opposition an opportunity to respond. The normal practice has been for a copy of the statement to be provided within a period of 2 hours before the debate is to commence so that the opportunity is given to the Opposition to have someone respond on behalf of it immediately the statement is presented. After the response has been made, the practice has been for the debate to be adjourned. The same procedures were followed on this occasion as have been followed with respect to every other ministerial statement that has been made. This is the normal procedure. 1 am sure that it is fully understood by members of the Opposition.

I know that this is an important subject. I know that it is a subject on which there is great anxiety by some honourable members who believe that we should proceed to clear it up as quickly as possible. In view of the circumstances, I think that it would be desirable for a vote to be taken on the issue. I suggest that perhaps the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders might be cleared and that the House should proceed back to the substantive statement by the Minister for Primary Industry (Mr Sincalir) and the response which was made by the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson). As has been requested by the 2 members of the Opposition who have spoken to this motion, we should then proceed to take the vote that they have sought on this matter. I suggest that, as soon as we clear the matter of the suspension of Standing Orders, we should proceed to the other matter immediately.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

- Mr Deputy Speaker, 1 join in the debate on the motion to suspend Standing Orders because the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) ha> made one or two points concerning ministerial statements to which I wish to respond. It is not very often that I disagree with the Leader of the House on these matters because it is true that we do have discussions about statements that are to be made in the House. But it is also quite clear to ail honourable members that debates on ministerial statements that are made in thi:; Howe are not always confined merely to 2 speakers. There are many occasions when a full scale debate is arranged by agreement. I have no objection to the Leader of the House being adamant about a debate being adjourned after a statement has been delivered and a reply has been made by one member from this side of the House. But the proposition that the Minister is now proposing is entirely different. The circumstances are completely changed The Minister for Primary Industry (Mr Sinclair) has suggested that there ought to be a vote on this issue. T thought that this was the attitude which had been expressed very clearly by the honourable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr Allan Fraser), lt certainly was clearly expressed by the honourable member for Riverina (Mr Grassby).

What is the position with regard to a vote on an important issue such as this? I do not want to transgress the rules of the House. But the p’ain fact is that, as J understand the position, the Minister for Primary Industry challenged members of the Opposition to a debate on this issue. If the circumstances are that the Minister has asked for a debate, has suggested that there ought to be a debate and has challenged members on this side of the House to a debate, the motion moved by the hon ourable member for Eden-Monaro to suspend the Standing Orders for this purpose is a legitimate request.

I direct attention to those honourable members who sit in that corner of the House and who claim to represent the wool growers of this country. They have made this claim despite the fact that they have failed in this respect. But they claim to repre,sent wool growers. Again 1 know that I might be in difficulty if I refer to the crisis in the wool industry, but members of the Country Party cla m to represent those engaged in the wool industry. If one of their members, who is the Minister for Primary Industry, has issued a challenge for a debate on this subject with honourable members on this side of the House, this motion presents a clear opportunity for a debate to take place.

This issue is an important one. The question is whether this ban ought to be applied or whether it ought to be lifted. The opinion of honourable members on this side of the House and. indeed. I think he opinion of some members on the Government side of the House, if not the opinion of those members in the Country Party corner, is that this ban should not be lifted. 1 think tha* this is the general consensus among the wool growers themselves. The Standing Orders do not permit us to debate the issue. We are speaking to a motion for the suspension of the S anding Orders. But the Minister for Primary Industry has had the opportunity to make his statement.

The Leader of the House has now StIffgested that there ought to be a vote on the issue. If there is to be a vote on this important issue, quite clearly the substance of the argument advanced by the honourable member for Eden-Monaro, very capably supported by the honourable member for Riverina who did not transgress the Standing Orders in the debate but who put his case very clearly that there should b; a suspension of Standing Orders which would enable this matter to be debated fully, leads to the question: What has the Government to hide? Sitting on the front bench now is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Anthony). He is the former Minister for Primary Industry. 1 think that he was glad to hand the portfolio over to his successor.

But the Deputy Prime Minister is here. Surely he has something to say on the question as to whether this ban ought to be lifted or whether the embargo ought to continue.

The Minister for Primary Industry has made a statement in relation to this matter. The opportunity now exists for the Minister to accept our challenge. If he issued a challenge to honourable members on this side of the House, we now challenge the Government to allow a full scale debate on this matter. Therefore, I support (he motion for the suspension of Standing Orders. Here is a clear opportunity to undertake a debate in the way proposed. The Leader of the House has acquiesced to the extent that he is now prepared to allow the House to vote on the issue. But surely it is not a proper procedure to allow the House to vote on a most important matter before that matter has been considered fully by honourable members who. wish to express their views one way or the other.

In these circumstances, if the Leader of the House is prepared to allow a vote, I suggest that he might be prepared to allow a debate. After all, if we are to make a decision in this manner, there are members on this side of the House who would like to express an opinion on it. Therefore, I support the motion moved by the honourable member for Eden-Monaro and seconded by the honourable member for Riverina that the Standing Orders should be suspended to enable a full scale debate to take place in this House. Then this Parliament will be in a position to record a vote and to make a decision. I believe that that decision would be in favour of the proposition that has been put to the House by the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson).

Mr SINCLAIR:
Minister for Primary Industry · New England · CP

– The motion that wc are debating seeks the suspension of Standing Orders. It has been suggested that, in the course of the debate on the original motion to take note of the paper, I challenged the honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson) who is, as 1 understand if. the shadow minister for primary industry in the Australian Labor Party. I guess that, with the rivals behind him. he must be a little uncertain as to his present stature. The position is that he, in the course of his speech in reply to my statement, said that he fell that it was necessary for there to be a debate on the question of whether merino rams should be allowed to be exported on the basis that has been recommended now for the third time by the Australian Wool Industry Conference. Certainly, there are differences this time. In essence the Australian Wool Industry Conference has made 3 recommendations and its third recommendation

Mr Bryant:

Mr Deputy Speaker, I draw your attention to your earlier rulings restricting debates by my colleagues on this side of the House to the subject matter before the chair. The matter immediately before us is the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders and I ask that you direct the Minister to stick to that subject.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock:

– I would suggest to the honourable member for Wills that the situation has altered slightly. As a matter of fact, I would hazard a guess that some honourable members now do not know what we are debating. A suggestion has been made that certain action be taken to allow a certain suggested course to be adopted. The Minister is in charge of the Bill. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has made a speech. The Chair wants to hear al] the comments that are made from both sides of the House.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I am happy to acknowledge that I am speaking to a motion to suspend Standing Orders.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I rise to order. I wish to express my disagreement with the attitude you have just suggested you are going to adopt towards the continuation of the debate on the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-The honourable member for Eden-Monaro will resume his seat. I have not said that that is the attitude that I will adopt. The Chair has been asked to accept a motion for the withdrawal of a previous motion and I am making an endeavour to help the House. The honourable member for Eden-Monaro can shake his head as much as he likes but the fact is that the honourable member for Henty asked for permission to withdraw a motion. An endeavour is being made to arrive at a certain situation, which has been mentioned by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, so that this House can take action. To help the House arrive at such a situation it might be practicable to allow the Minister in charge of the Bill to make some comment on this matter.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– On the point of order,I submit that the rules applying to the mover and seconder of the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders must be applied to other speakers.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– If the honourable member for Eden-Monaro has not been listening to what has been happening in the House I will ask the Minister for Primary Industry to restrict himself to the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– That is exactly what I was doing. While the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) was speaking, I presume to the motion for suspension of Standing Orders, he suggested that I had challenged the shadow Minister for Primary Industry to a debate on the question. In essence what I said - in relation to the suspension of Standing Orders, let me assure you again - is that if we were going to debate the statement it would be necessary to debate the issues. I thought the honourable member for Dawson might well have talked about the issues instead of talking about the fact that he was being denied the right to vote. The point at issue at the moment is whether or not we should suspend Standing Orders in order to allow for those matters which the honourable member for Dawson suggested were necessary, a debate and a vote.

A debate would originate around the statement made by me relating to a decision taken at the Australian Wool Industry Conference. That statement by me enabled the honourable member for Dawson, representing the Opposition, to make an exposition on what he felt were the issues relative to the statement. If we are going to suspend Standing Orders to allow this House to embark on another debate on the issue, we will be simply extending the debate which has already begun. We had been in the course of a debate on a motion which was previously moved but which the honourable member for Henty (Mr Fox) has suggested he ask leave to withdraw, when the honourable member for Eden-Monaro moved the suspension of Standing Orders. In other words, the honourable member for Eden-Monaro moved the suspension of Standing Orders to allow for a debate on the question of the relaxation of the embargo on the export of merino rams, the subject in relation to which I have just made a statement. I set out the decision made by the Australian Wool Industry Conference; I recited the history of the decision. I set down the very grievous circumstances besetting ram breeders in Australia, grievous circumstances which apparently have not been taken account of in the attitude of members of the Opposition in this House. I set out a statement which was the beginning of the debate which the motion moved by the honourable member for Eden-Monaro suggests should be extended. Before this motion was moved we were in the process of debating the very issues on which the honourable member for Eden-Monaro wanted an extended debate. As I understood his remarks, the honourable member for Dawson felt it was necessary for there to be a debate oh these issues.

Mr Grassby:

– I rise to order. I seek your guidance on this matter. As I understood it, when I seconded the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders to debate the whole of the ramifications of the merino ram embargo, I did this to enable us to discuss the whole of these ramifications. Under the Standing Orders, as I understand it, we are at present discussing only part of this subject and I ask for a ruling from you on this matter. The Minister has said that we can extend the debate which is now in progress, not in relation to the motion for the suspension of Standing Orders but in relation to the previous motion that we take note of the statement. He said that we can extend that despite the limited objectives of the paper and the limited objectives of the Government’s motion on this occasion. According to the Minister we can extend this as far as we like. I ask for your ruling. What the Government has done through the Minister for Primary Industry is to move a motion that would extend the existing ban and the debate under the Standing Orders should be related and in fact confined to that extension.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-In relation to the point of order raised by the honourable member for Riverina, what the Minister for Primary Industry has said is that prior to the moving of the suspension of Standing Orders there was a debate on the statement by the Minister for Primary Industry to which the honourable member for Dawson had made a speech in reply. That question was in the process of being put to the House when the honourable member for Eden-Monaro moved his motion for the suspension of Standing Orders, the reason being, I surmise, that the adjournment of the debate had been agreed to and the honourable member wished the debate to continue. In seconding the motion the honourable member for Riverina sought to bring the matter lo a vote and at the time he raised this point of order the Minister for Primary Industry was actually saying that it had been suggested by the Opposition that there should be a vote on this subject. That is the situation at the moment.

Dr Patterson:

– I rise to order. I regret that I must disagree with your ruling.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-I have not given a ruling. 1 have stated to the House what has happened in this debate.

Dr Patterson:

– I take a point of order. The only question before the Chair at the present time is the motion for suspension of Standing Orders which was moved by the honourable member for Eden-Monaro and seconded by the honourable member for Riverina.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Dawson will resume his seat. In regard to the point of order raised by the honourable member I would suggest that the House might listen to what is said by the Chair. A point of order was raised by the honourable member for Riverina and I was ruling on that at the time when I make the comment about what was happening in this House. If the honourable member for Dawson had been listening he would know that I said that the motion before the House was for the suspension of Standing Orders, moved by the honourable member for EdenMonaro and seconded by the honourable member for Riverina. I said that the Minister in his reply was commenting on what had been said by the honourable member for

Riverina in seconding the motion moved by the honourable member for EdenMonaro that a vote should be taken in the House.

Mr Grassby:

– 1 rise to order just to clarify the situation. 1 think we ought to understand what we are doing.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I suggest that the honourable member state his point of order immediately.

Mr Grassby:

– My point of order is that I want an interpretation of exactly what you have said.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-I point out to the honourable member for Riverina that, a ruling on a point of order is not an interpretation of what has been said. I ask the honourable member for Riverina to resume his seal.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– The motion before the House is for the suspension of Standing Orders. I believe that the Opposition wants a vote on the suspension of Standing Orders and a vote on the motion that the House take note of the paper. Members of the Opposition could canvass, as I suggested to the honourable member for Dawson when he spoke, the whole range of issues so far as the export of merino rams was concerned. That, of course, was the purpose of the statement. Honourable members could move an amendment to the motion that the House take note of the paper if they wished. Honourable members opposite know their rights under the Standing Orders of this House and frequently exercise them, and in a debate on an amendment to the motion that the House take note of the statement they could, of course, canvass the whole range of issues relating to the export of merino rams.

Mr Grassby:

– I rise to order. The Minister has just said that the purpose of the motion that the House take note of the paper is to bring this matter to a resolution. In your remarks, Sir, you said that the matter before the Parliament at the present time was a motion for the adjournment of the debate and that we could not make a decision at this time. I want your guidance on this, Mr Deputy Speaker, because what you say and what the Minister says are two different things.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock:

– Order! There is no substance in the point of order.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– We are talking about the suspension of Standing Orders in order to allow a debate on a motion relating, I presume, to the relaxation of the export ot merino rams. I have suggested that it would be possible, the honourable member for Henty (Mr Fox) already having given an undertaking that he is prepared to withdraw his motion for the adjournment of the debate, that wc can then have a vole on the motion to take note of the paper. That in fact is the area within which the honourable member for Dawson was able to canvass the full range of issues relating to the export of merino rams. He was able to canvass anything relating to the circumstances of the wool industry, the stud sheep breeders or anyone else affected. He was in no way inhibited in his remarks, and I believe for that reason there is no need to suspend the Standing Orders. Rather, we should get rid of this motion and then take a vote on the original motion that the House take note of the paper.

Question put:

That the motion (Mr Allan Fraser’s) be agreed to.

The House divided. Ayes Noes

44 52

(Mr Deputy Speaker - Mr P. E. Lucock)

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Mr Fox - Mr Deputy Speaker-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock) Order! The position at the moment is that the honourable member for Henty has asked leave to withdraw the motion for the adjournment of the debate on the question that the House take note of the paper, ls leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted. Therefore at the moment there is no motion before the House except the motion that the House take note of the paper. The question is that the motion be agreed to.

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · Darling Downs · LP

Mr Deputy Speaker, the debate on this matter, in a variety of forms, has continued for quite some time despite the fact thai it was a ministerial statement to which there was a response by the honourable member for Dawson. The matter has arisen because 2 members of the Opposition asked specifically for a vote on this mailer l before the Chair.

Mr Grassby:

Mr Deputy Spv.aM.-t, a point of order.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Riverina will resume his seat. The honourable member for Eden-Monaro will also resume his seat.

Dr Patterson:

Mr Deputy Speaker, I raise a point of order. The honourable member for Eden-Monaro asked for the suspension of Standing Orders to allow the House to debate the matter.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! There is no substance in the point of order.

Mr SWARTZ:

– In order that this matter may be resolved, as it is quite obvious that the Opposition wishes to vote on the subject, I suggest that the vote be taken on the original motion.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Is the Leader of the House moving that the question be put?

Mr SWARTZ:

– Yes. I move: That the question be now put.

Question put. The House divided. (Mr Deputy Speaker - Mr P. E. Lucock) Ayes . . . . 52

AYES: 0

NOES: 46

Majority 6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock)Order! The honourable member for Grayndler may not address the House.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4477

TRAINING OF VIETNAMESE AND CAMBODIANS IN VIETNAM

Minsterial Statement

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Minister for Defence · Farrer · LP

– I seek leave to make a statement on the training of Vietnamese and Cambodians in Vietnam.

Mr Bryant:

Mr Deputy Speaker, may I ask the Minister whether we are to be permitted to debate this issue now and whether people such as myself will be allowed to speak if we consider it necessary?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Lucock:

– Order! There is no point of order.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– This is up to your Deputy Leader.

Mr Bryant:

– What is the answer?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Wills will resume his seat.

Mr Bryant:

– Leave is refused.

Mr Barnard:

– No, leave is not refused.

Mr Bryant:

– Unless I can speak, he does not speak.

Mr Barnard:

– Leave is granted.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I suggest that the House come to order and that interjections from both sides of the House cease.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I wish to inform the House of the arrangements that have been made for Australian military training elements to assist with the traning in Vietnam

Mr Bryant:

– 1 take a point of order. I refer to standing order No. Ill which states:

Leave of the House or committee must be granted without any dissentient voice.

If the Minister wishes to make this statement he will offer an equal opportunity to those on this side of the House to speak, otherwise I will exercise my right and refuse leave. The House does not belong to the Minister or any members of the Opposition individually; it belongs to each one of us. This is my right, and I have been run over all this day-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member for Wills will resume his seat. The position before the Chair is that if leave is refused by one member leave to make the statement is not granted. Normally it is accepted that if the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who is in charge of the business of the House on the Opposition side, gives leave that leave is granted. But if the honourable member foi Wills asserts his right, the standing order he quoted must be upheld.

Mr Bryant:

– All he has to do is say that he will give us leave lo speak.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The Chair is not able to decide whether something is to be granted by a Government jr whether something is to be granted by the Opposition. The Chair is bound by the Stand.ng Orders, and if the honourable member for Wills asserts his desire to have the standing order to which he referred enforced the Chair must accept that leave has been refused by the honourable member for Wills. At the moment that is the position.

Mr Barnard:

– 1 want to make my position perfectly clear. A number of ministerial statements have been listed on the blue working sheet today. It is the usual custom for the Leader of the House to discuss these matters with me. I consult the Leader of my Party, and if we agree that a statement is to be made in the House and give an undertaking to that effect I will keep that undertaking. I am not prepared to break a promise. The Leader of the House has not entered into any arrangements different from those we discussed this morning. The matters we discussed are listed on the blue sheet. The statement that the Minister lor Defence wishes to make is a very important statement not only to members in this House but also to people outside this House. I want to make my position perfectly clear. I am not prepared to go back on an undertaking that I made concerning the business of this House. In these ir.cumstances I suggest that the Minister should be granted leave to make his statement.

Mr Calwell:

– As the oldest inhabitant and the father of the House-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Strictly speaking the oldest inhabitant should seek leave.

Mr Calwell:

– 1 am rising on a point of order. The Standing Orders are such that the Government always wins. No matter what Party is in power there is a contingent resolution available and the Minister can move under that contingent resolution that he be given an opportunity to make his statement. The House might have to divide but the Minister can introduce his statement in that way. This is information given without a fee, even if I am only a doctor of law honoris causa.

Mr Swartz:

– 1 appreciate the comments of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I can assure the House that he has adhered to any arrangements or any agreements we have made in the past in discussions we have had in relation to the business of the House. I appreciate the fact that he has again tonight stood up and expressed himself as he has. I know it is a difficult situation.

Mr Bryant:

– I wish to make a personal explanation under standing order 64.

Mr Graham:

– Sit down.

Mr Bryant:

– Let me make my position clear.

Mr Kennedy:

– He has as much right as anyone here.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I suggest that the House come to order. If honourable members ceased interjecting and left the control of the House to the Chair we might get somewhere.

Mr Bryant:

– I make this explanation under standing order 64. I have refused leave to the Minister to make this statement on defence. I read the blue working sheet. I said to my colleague, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, this afternoon: ‘1 want to tell the Minister that if I am permitted to answer the Minister or to speak to his statement if I feel I should on behalf of those people I represent, I will not refuse leave.

But if I am refused the opportunity to speak I will refuse leave for the Minister to speak. However, in these circumstances and without withdrawing from my prerogative at all, I am prepared to withdraw my refusal to grant leave. But I want to say emphatically that nobody in this House, the Leader, the Deputy Leader, the Party altogether or the House itself, has any right whatsover to take away from any member the right to speak when he thinks he ought to. I am as important to my constituents as the Minister is to his and if this matter is of some importance to the nation I am entitled to speak and I have a duty to speak. Nobody - I do not care what you do, whomever it may be - will take that right from me and none of you will silence me. I withdraw my opposition to the Minister speaking with leave.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– Then I ask again for leave to make a statement.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Is leave granted. There now being no objection, leave is granted.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I wish to inform the House of the arrangements that have been made for Australian military training elements to assist with the training in Vietnam of Vietnamese and Cambodian armed forces personnel. The 2 matters under consideration are: Firstly, the maintenance in Vietnam of a small Australian Army Assistance Group (AAAG) after the withdrawal of the Australian Force Vietnam; and secondly, the provision of Australian military instructors to train Cambodian military personnel at United States training establishments set up with the co-operation of the Vietnamese Government in Phuoc Tuy Province.

As explained by Ministers earlier in the session, these matters were to be discussed with the other governments concerned. The Army Assistance Group is a matter for Australia and the Republic of Vietnam; the proposals to train Cambodian troops in Vietnam involve the governments of Australia, the Khmer Republic, the Republic of Vietnam and the United States.

Australian Army Assistance Group

The House will recall that on 30th March the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon), when announcing a reduction in Australian combat forces then in South Vietnam, made the observation that:

  1. . the Australian Government will continue lo assist the Republic of Vietnam, though the character of our assistance will progressively change.

The Prime Minister went on to refer to various forms of economic assistance and training assistance. On 18th August the Prime Minister informed the House that the Government was discussing with the Vietnamese Government plans to retain in the Republic some military training and advisory elements if they were wanted and if satisfactory arrangements could be made. The hope was expressed that these elements would continue to work in close association with the United States’ effort.

I am now able to announce the conclusion of our discussions with the Government of the Republic of Vietnam. That Government welcomes the continuation of this form of practical concern for their future, now that Vietnamese forces are carrying most of the burden of combat and Australian combat forces are about to be entirely withdrawn. In consultation with the Vietnamese Government, we are providing an Australian Army Assistance Group which will have a total strength of the order of150, including 30 instructors assigned to the training of Cambodians in Vietnam to which I will refer later. The Group will include elements to assist in training at the Jungle Warfare Training Centre at its new location in Van Kiep in Phuoc Tuy Province, and to assist in advising and training Territorial Forces also in Phuoc Tuy. It will include a small group of engineering personnel, who will be needed at the Jungle Warfare Training Centre at Van Kiep. and a headquarters and supporting element. None of the elements of the Group will have a combatant role. The costs of maintaining the Australian Army Assistant Group will be borne by the Australian Government. The group will remain in Vietnam so long as that is mutually agreed between the 2 governments and as long as it has a contribution to make.

The Government considers that the small numbers of personnel of the AAAG to assist the Vietnamese in these ways will perform a valuable function. We have previously been engaged in this kind of assistance to the Vietnamese, and Army instructors have won for themselves a fine record. This effort complements the programme of economic and defence aid support to Vietnam, which, as the Prime Minister announced last August, has been increased to $25m over the 3 years from 1971-72. With the withdrawal of our combat contribution to Vietnam it is appropriate that a small group should remain as arranged with the Government of the Republic of Vietnam to continue assistance in the training field.

Training of Personnel of the Khmer Armed Forces

Since Cambodia took up arms to resist North Vietnamese aggression, its Government has made both general and specific appeals dating back to April 1970 for assistance, and the Australian Government has given continuing consideration to these needs and to forms of help which would be appropriate and possible for Australia to give. For this purpose we have had a continuing exchange of information and views at the ministerial and official level with Cambodia and other countries interested in helping that country. As was stated in this House in November, Cabinet approved in principle the provision of a small number of Australian instructors to train Cambodian armed forces personnel at United States training establishments in Phuoc Tuy Province, subject to the feasibility of and arrangements for the proposal being established in discussions between the representatives of the governments concerned in Saigon.

Military representatives of Australia, the Khmer Republic, the Republic of Vietnam and the United States have now recommended practical arrangements for the training of Cambodian personnel in Vietnam, and the suitability of these arrangements has been accepted by the 4 governments. Australia will participate in this scheme with a group of the order of 30 instructors, the exact composition of which will be determined in the light of training requirements. This group of instructors will be included in the total of about150 men in Vietnam referred to above. They will be administered and supported as an integral part of the Australian Army Assistance Group. The costs of this group of instructors will be borne by the Australian Government and they will work within the framework of the United States training establishments in Phuoc Tuy Province. As with the arrangements governing the Australian Army Assistance Group, our participation in the scheme to train Cambodians at United States training establishments in Phuoc Tuy is by mutual arrangement between the governments concerned and will be reviewed according to requirements.

The Australian Government is firmly of the view that the Australian contribution of instructors. though small in number, to train Cambodians wm provide worthwhile and much needed assistance to meet the critical training requirements of the Cambodian armed forces. The requirements of the Cambodian armed forces for such assistance have long been recognised by the Australian Government, which, as announced earlier, is providing some training in Australia, and it can see added advantages in participating in a scheme for Cambodian training in Vietnam.

Australia has been giving material assistance to Cambodia, decisions on which have been announced previously. In June 1970 the Government made a special grant of $500,000 to Cambodia to purchase logistic and defence support items and to help with economic aid. In September of the same year the then Minister for Foreign Affairs announced an additional $900,000 for aid to Cambodia including economic and logistic support items and, if necessary, arms and ammunition. This programme of special aid to Cambodia has continued in 1971-72 when $ 1.35m has been provided including $200,000 for the training of Cambodian servicemen in Australia. The Government believes Australians admire the way in which Cambodians are defending themselves against invading forces of North Vietnam. The Cambodian armed forces are small and not highly trained, and the Cambodian people are accustomed to peace rather than to the need now imposed upon them to defend themselves against military attack by the North Vietnamese. The Australian Government is convinced that Australians will consider that the assignment of some Australian instructors to train Cambodians in Vietnam is a most suitable and practical way of supporting the country in concert wilh others who are concerned.

As I have stated, the instructors will be assisting at training establishments maintained in Phuoc Tuy Province by the United States: there is no intention of sending Australian Service personnel to Cambodia. The Government’s policy of not stationing Service personnel in Cambodia (other than the Service Attache at the Australian Embassy) is a long-standing one, and there will be no departure from this. 1 lay on the table of the House for the information of members 2 Memoranda of Understanding, the first covering the Australian Army Assistance Group in Vietnam, the second on Australian participation in the training of Cambodian military personnel in Vietnam. These documents, signed on behalf of the Governments concerned, set out the agreed arrangements concerning the matters I have just outlined. I present the following paper:

Training of Vietnamese and Cambodians in

Vietnam - Ministerial Statement. 9th December

and move:

That the House take note of the paper.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

– The Minister for Defence (Mr Fairbairn) has announced the commitment of about 150 Australian soldiers to South Vietnam after the withdrawal of the Task Force. There is little new in the statement that an Army assistance group will be retrained in South Vietnam. This was made clear in the statement by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) on the future of Australian forces in Vietnam in this House on 18th August. Nor is there much novelty in the statement that this assistance group will contain a subgroup of 30 instructors to train Cambodians in South Vietnam. This stems from the extraordinarily ham-handed handling of negotiations with the United States Government before and during the Prime Minister’s recent overseas trip. lt was made clear to the Parliament that this request to train Cambodians had come from the United States Government. The Government went to remarkable lengths to disguise and rationalise this approach. Even staunch supporters of the Government such as the honourable member for Moreton (Mr Killen) queried the Government’s performance. This honourable gentleman has on the notice paper a motion in the following terms:

That this House is of the opinion that, until such time as evidence of a request from the Cambodian Government to the Australian Gov.ernment to provide instructors to train Cambodian troops in South Vietnam is tabled in this House, no Australian servicemen be ordered to instruct Cambodian servicemen in South Vietnam.

If the memorandum on the Australian participation in the training of FANK personnel in Vietnam is intended to satisfy the demands of the honourable member for Moreton, then 1 suggest that u falls somewhat short of evidence of a request from the Cambodian Government. lt is plain that this arrangement resulted from a direct approach by the United States Government to the Department of Defence, although all sorts of vague proclamations have been used in retrospective justification.

It is significant that New Zealand is not a signatory to the memorandum nor is there any indication that New Zealand is to participate in the scheme to train Cambodians in Vietnam. The Prime Minister at one stage committed New Zealand to this training scheme along with the United Slates and South Vietnam. This is an example of the sort of bungling and wrong information given by the Government on this extremely important policy issue. In the event the New Zealand Government has shown much more sense than this Government in getting out of Vietnam and staying out. The attitude of the Labor Party to these two announcements can be stated quite simply: We are opposed to the retention of an Australian assistance team in South Vietnam. We are opposed to the use of Australian servicemen to train Cambodians in South Vietnam. The Government supports the administration of General Lon Nol in Cambodia; the Opposition has very grave reservations about it. These are our attitudes and 1 do not want to elaborate them in any detail. - The main dangers of commitments of this sort is that they can be so readily used as the springboard for a massive escalation. An American army of more than half a million flowed on directly from the commitment of a modest number of advisers. Australian advisers have been used in Vietnam for just over nine years. With the Task Force out, there will be very little check on where and how these advisers will operate.

The Government is quite adamant that it will not commit Australian soldiers to Cambodia, but South Vietnamese units are in and out of Cambodia all the time. No one can say for certain that Australian advisers have not gone into Cambodia or into Laos in the operations earlier this year. These are the 2 dangers of maintaining such a presence; that it can be used as the basis for the re-commitment of Australian units, and it is not possible for proper supervision of their movements and activities.

Having stressed the Labor Party’s total opposition to the 2 measures contained in the Minister’s statement, 1 want to look at an important matter arising from the Government’s policy of training South Vietnamese and Cambodian troops. This is the fate of the proposed jungle training school at Nui Dat. The Minister referred to the Nui Dat project in an oblique reference to the Jungle Warfare Training Centre at its new location in Van K leI] in Phuoc Tuy Province. When the proposal to establish the school was announced by the right honourable member for Higgins (Mr Gorton) in April last year, it was to be in quarters vacated by reduction of the task force from 3 to 2 battalions. In October last year, the former Minister ‘ for Defence, the honourable member for Wannon (Mr Malcolm Fraser) said that the school at Nui Dat would be training 400 to 500 junior leaders for the South Vietnamese forces by early 1971. On 30th March in this House, the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) said the Nui Dat school had just completed its first school.

A report appeared in the ‘Australian’ on 23rd April, by Barry Wain claiming that a total of $600,000 would be spent on building the permanent training school at Nui Dat. This would include 60 married quarters, 5 student company areas, lecture rooms, a 500-man assembly hail and administration buildings, staff accommodation and mess halls. In his statement on 18th August, the Prime Minister said that the training school at Nui Dat would be retained if wanted and if satisfactory arrangements could be made. On 15th October the Minister announced in the baldest possible terms that the jungle training scheme would be moved to Van Kiep. lt was reported in the ‘Sydney Morning Herald’ of 18rh October that Nui Dat base including the training school was being destroyed by the South Vietnamese as the Task Force withdrew. This switch from Nui Dat to Van Kiep which is a major training camp conducted by the United States Army has never been explained in a satisfactory way.

The Government intended to maintain a flag force at the traditional Task Force quarters at Nui Dat. This was- made quite clear in successive statements by Prime Ministers and Defence Ministers and in statements given to the Press. Now. Nui Dat has been scrapped completely and the jungle training school dismantled. The Government should outline why it was not possible lo maintain the school at Nui Dat and why the training school had to be swiftly shifted under the American umbrella. It should also outline to the House how much was invested in the jungle training camp at Nui Dat and how much of the capital investment and equipment was destroyed when the camp was moved. A figure of $600,000 was reported in the Press and not refuted by the Government. If a sum of this size has been written off in a futile venture of this sort, then it adds new dimensions to the folly of the Vietnam commitment.

Another mysterious feature of this announcement is that no reference is made to the formation of the mobile army training teams which were to be formed for service in Vietnam as the Task Force withdrew. This was announced by the Former Prime Minister in his statement in April last year. According to the right honourable member for Higgins, these mobile teams would bear the brunt of Australian participation with 130 men formed into mobile training groups to Ii ase with and train regional and popular forces in the field. The next reference I have been able to find to the mobile training team was in an article in the Melbourne ‘Age’ on 16th October last year when it was claimed that these 130 men would be divided into 15 mobile training teams. There has been no further mention by either Government or Press of these 15 ‘phantom’ mobile training teams. In a total commitment of 150 men with 30 earmarked for training Cambodians, a team at Van Kiep, a cadre providing advisory and training assistance to territorial forces and a number of engineers, it is not possible to get 130 men organised into 15 mobile training teams.

These are samples of the way in which this Parliament has been misleading repeatedly about the Government’s actions in Vietnam. The history of the jungle training school and the disappearance of the mobile training teams are important matters which the Government is obliged to explain to the Parliament. The Government is practising an act of deception on itself if it believes that these important policy reversals can be allowed to pass without Parliamentary scrutiny. In summing up, I repeat again the Labor Party’s complete opposition to any further military participation of any sort in the Indo China wars. The last vestiges of military assistance will be ended immediately by a future Labor Government. But on this issue and on this note may i indicate at once that while we have consistently stated our opposition in this Parliament to the Government’s decision to have Australian training teams located in South Vietnam for the purpose of training Cambodians, just as we opposed Australian intervention in South Vietnam, and while we welcome the Government’s belated decision to withdraw Austraiian forces before the end of this year, we do not believe that this should be the end of Australia’s responsibility in Vietnam. 1 am now speaking of the period after the inevitable political settlement, which is the only way in which the war in Vietnam can be completed sal.isfactorily. The Minister and the Government must be fully aware of this.

This Government and any Australian government - no doubt the next government will be a Labor Government - will have the continuing responsibility of providing the kind of assistance that will mean something to the people in the devastated areas not only of South Vietnam but also North Vietnam, lt is a great pity that, in these ministerial statements which, of necessity, may be confined to one aspect of Government policy, there is too much emphasis on the Government’s attitude in respect of what it will do in relation to its commitments in Vietnam and too little emphasis on the attitude that one would expect the Government to adopt as a humane approach to the problems of the people of South Vietnam. Irrespective of what attitude it may adopt if the Government is to be congratulated on any approach it has made in South Vietnam in the pas:, it should be on the basis of the assistance which it has provided which, J believe, will leave a lasting impression on the people of that country. This is an impression which has been created as a result of the attitude of those who have been in a position to provide projects of a worthwhile nature to the people of South Vietnam. In this way I believe that Australians in South Vietnam - quite apart from their general conduct as soldiers, to which I have referred on many occasions - have made worthwhile contributions.

I have taken the opportunity to state in this House tonight the Opposition’s continued objection to the Government’s decision to leave troops in South Vietnam, whether for training purposes or as advisers. We believe that the Government is wrong in this decision, lt should adopt the attitude that New Zealand has adopted and which I mentioned earlier. New Zealand has decided that it will no longer retain troops in South Vietnam. It has made a clear decision in this respect and we believe that Australia should have adopted this same attitude. This Government now is prepared to maintain 130 advisers in South Vietnam to train Cambodian and South Vietnamese troops. I do not want to repeat what I have said on other occasions, but this is the way in which a country can become involved in a conflict that is of no concern to it.

I conclude by saying that while I have slated the Opposition’s objections, I reiterate that there will be a responsibility on any Australian Government to ensure that whatever assistance is required in the rehabilitation of the people of South Vietnam and of North Vietnam when a peaceful settlement to this problem has been found - I hope this will not be in the too distant future - it will be provided. The Australian Government should recognise that, because of the way in which it has been involved as a result of its commitment in that country, it should accept responsibility for the great task of rehabilitation.

Mr BRYANT:
Wills

-! should like to emphasise the points that my friend, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) has placed before the House. As I see it, an important principle is involved. It is not just the question that a small number of Australian soldiers are to be left in South Vietnam. Australian soldiers are not for lease, loan or sale. Australian soldiers are not available to carry out other people’s diplomatic or political tasks. That is the principle that is before the House and that is the one which the Government fails to acknowledge. I believe that there is great dissatisfaction in Australia at the continuing location of Australian troops in this area. This has been a long and traumatic experience for the whole nation and one in which the Labor Party was involved right from the beginning in resisting the presence of Australian troops in South Vietnam. The Government has reluctantly at last come to the right decision to withdraw Australian troops from Vietnam but we thought it would be a complete withdrawal from the area. However, that is not to be the case.

It may be said that the people of Cambodia are entitled to the kind of support that the Government’s decision would give them. I believe they are entitled to support as a people. Like my colleague, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, 1 have serious doubts about the Government and I will say a few words about that in a moment. But the facts are that it is only in the diplomatic field that I believe that Australia can effect useful results in this area. I believe that from the very beginning we prejudiced our strongest position in this matter by committing ourselves to military action. While we have any troups in the area, nobody will listen to us as a neutral, impartial and objective country. It will only be by our appearing to be neutral, impartial and objective and on the side of humanity that we will mobilise world public opinion on behalf of the Khmer people. With the accession of the People’s Republic of China to the United Nations, there is a totally different diplomatic scenario. All of the people and all the forces involved are available to discuss the situation around the tabic in the international forum. By failing to use the diplomatic initiative, I think we are abdicating our responsibilities to the Australian public.

I have a deep feeling for the people of the Khmer Republic - the Cambodian people. They are being overrun in somebody else’s war. and therefore the Opposition resents the continuing commitment of Australian troops to this area. We believe that it removes us from the possibility of effective diplomatic initiative. On the other hand, I think we . should be doing something to relieve the physical suffering of the people in that area. We should be doing more in this regard. I know from my visit last year that the people were suffering severely, the hospitals were overcrowded, there was a shortage of beds, materials and doctors and hundreds of civilians were accommodated on the floors of the hospitals. We are doing very little about this situation in Cambodia. 1 personally hold the view that people have the right to defend themselves, and this was the reason for the position which I took last year and which in general I still sustain. But I believe it is little enough that the people will be able to achieve. By some means or other we have to entice the Vietnamese people, the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese and the governments of both countries, to leave Laos and Cambodia, and this will happen only as a result of extraordinary pressure being exerted by the people who support either side. We should be trying to get the South Vietnamese to the conference table. We should be trying to get the Russians to exert what influence they can. We should be trying to get other countries, such as Canada, to influence the Chinese to influence the North Vietnamese, and that is the only answer. 1 just want to place on record my disappointment at the collapse of parliamentary democracy - what there was of it, although it had the basis of a democratic system - in Cambodia. This Government ought to be attempting to convince the Lon Nol Government that it must revert to the democratic procedures which were part of the Cambodian situation. My friend the honourable member for Bendigo (Mr Kennedy) who visited Cambodia earlier this year has reported to me that the people at that time were becoming deeply concerned about the situation in Cambodia. 1 believe that we have a role to play in this part of the world that has nothing whatsoever to do with a military commitment, lt is with deep despondency that we note the Thai situation and the collapse of the parliamentary system in Thailand, meagre as it was. This Government has been silent about this question. I believe that we should exert all possible pressure and influence on the Thai Government in order to restore the meagre parliamentary system which existed in that country. In this instance I suppose our Vietnam com mitment is a symbol of our inadequacy and our false approach. We have always gone for the military commitment when in fact the best that Australia could do would be to help the people themselves. This goes for the people of Pakistan and the suffering refugees who, more than ever, will become the responsibility of the world community.

Earlier tonight I perhaps put the Minister for Defence (Mr Fairbairn) and my colleague the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) in an embarrassing position in this discussion. I believe that it is bad parliamentary practice to produce in this House an important document on defence or anything else that has to do with our associations and international commitments in this part of the world in such a way that it cannot be adequately discussed. One of the weaknesses which have appeared in the last few years has been the inadequate time allowed for the discussion of public affairs. Discussion of foreign affairs and defence matters has been most inadequately treated. That was one of the reasons why I put on what might be termed a demonstration in this chamber a little while ago, and I can give honourable members the assurance that while I am in this place I will sustain that view.

None of us can abdicate his responsibility. Honourable members opposite cannot abdicate their responsibilities by leaving matters to the Ministers. They have very definite personal responsibilities to the people whom they represent, and they have definite personal reponsibilities because they are a part of the Australian community. The continual silence on issues such as this, when ministerial statements are made, I believe, is an abdication of our parliamentary responsibility. So I want to place on record my disapproval of the procedure. I support the view of the Australian Labor Party, that this is a dangerous and unacceptable precedent which we are following in the training of Cambodian troops. I only hope that no Australian life is sacrificed thereby. It is again one of the issues before the public that Australian soldiers are not for sale, lease or loan, and we cannot commit people to war without losing lives. In this instance not one drop of Australian blood should be shed.

Mr TURNER:
Bradfield

– Having listened with some interest to the speeches which have been made from the Opposition benches I cannot restrain myself in silence. Only 3 weeks ago 1” was in Saigon and Phnom Penh, and I must say something from personal observation. Let us have a look for a moment at the history of this Khmer Republic. The Khmer people once had an empire ruled from Angkor-Wat which spread throughout the Indo-China peninsula. It has now been constricted into the small country that we call Cambodia. The Thais ate into it in the west and the Vietnamese coming down from the north ate more and more into it along the coastal rivers. So, compressed into the little State where it now is, it was Anally brought up against its own Munich, as it were. The North Vietnamese entered into it through the collaboration of Sihanouk and took over large areas of the country adjourning South Vietnam for the purpose of prosecuting the war in South Vietnam. Sihanouk collaborated with the North Vietnamese. These people who once had a large empire spreading throughout Indo-China were then forced to decide whether they would see their whole country gobbled up by their traditional enemies or whether they would stand and fight at the last ditch, and this is what happened in the Khmer Republic. The people decided to stand and fight at the last ditch. They had met their Munich.

So it was that a soldier and a patriot in Lon Nol decided that they had reached this situation. I had the privilege of meeting Lon Nol, and anybody who has met him - and I think that the honourable member for Wills (Mr Bryant) has met him - will know that he is a man who lives in a modest little house. It is no palace. He is not a corrupt man; he is a patriot. He is trying, sick man as he is, to preserve what is left of what was once a great empire. These are the facts. I am told, and believe, that 90 per cent of the people in Cambodia own their own little plot of land. Communism has nothing to offer to them. Now we, miserable creatures that we are, say: ‘No, we will give them no assistance whatever. It might mean the shedding of Australian blood’. The only assistance that we are giving is a small cadre of men, professional soldiers who like that profession, who are giving some training in Vietnam to selected Cambodians. We say: ‘No, we should have nothing to do with them’. Are we providing them with any equipment? I saw there boys, who I would say were 15 years of age, in a platoon who had been enlisted to fight against their hereditary enemies, the North Vietnamese who are spreading their empire throughout IndoChina. I feel ashamed to think that Australians would say: ‘We must extend no help to these people in these circumstances’.

Mr Bryant:

– I did not say that.

Mr TURNER:

– This is what the honourable member is saying. He is saying that not a drop of Australian blood should be shed. He is saying: ‘We will have no training team in South Vietnam. We will give no help to these people. We will give no equipment. Not a drop of Australian blood will be shed. We will wash our hands of it’. This is what the honourable member for Wills said. He also referred to the Thais. May I say a word about them? He regretted the perishing of Thai democracy. I do not know whether there ever was Thai democracy. All countries have democracy. Forms of government go by many names. But it happened that I was also in Bangkok and I spoke with people who knew the situation, and what was the situation? The honourable member for Wills says that the Government has not told him what the situation is. Well, I will tell him. What happened was that the members of the Thai Parliament wanted to lay their bands on a very substantial sum of money - what I think would be called in America a pork barrel - and to spend that money in the electorates in order to win their seats at the forthcoming elections. The terrible General Kittikachorn said: ‘We will not put up with millions being spent in the pork barrel to enable members to get back in their seats’. These are the plain and simple facts about the perishing of democracy in Thailand, which the honourable member for Wills regrets.

I do not want to say any more about the Thais. I have said a little about the Cambodians. I have a high regard for those people. I see them fighting for their very survival. I see poor, miserable wretches saying: ‘We would not extend a single hand to help them, not even to provide professional soldiers to try to train these people who are fighting for survivial.’

Mr BRYANT (Wills)- Mr Speaker, I wish to make a personal explanation.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! Does the honourable member claim to have been misrepresented?

Mr BRYANT:

– Yes. The honourable member for Bradfield (Mr Turner)–

Mr Giles:

-I move:

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! I cannot accept the motion at this stage. The honourable member for Wills is making a personal explanation. I call the honourable member for Wills.

Mr BRYANT:

– The honourable member for Bradfield, the intensity of whose emotions I respect, said that we said we would give no help to Cambodia. We said nothing of the sort. My colleague from Bass (Mr Barnard) said nothing of the sort. I said nothing of the sort. I said that we would give them every diplomatic help and that we ought to give them every help– (Government members interjecting) -

Mr BRYANT:

– It is all right for honourable members opposite to laugh but–

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order! Although I. was not present in the chamber earlier this evening, I listened to the proceedings of the House. I will stand none of the nonsense that went on earlier. I suggest to the House that it come to order.

Mr BRYANT:

– As to the alleviation of personal suffering, we should be doing a lot more. The difference between myself and the honourable member for Bradfield is simply on this question of soldiers. The term that I used about the Parliament in Thailand was with respect to its ‘meagre parliamentary system’, not its ‘meagre democratic system’.

Mr KIRWAN:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

- Mr Speaker–

Motion (by Mr Giles) put:

That the question be now put

The House divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

AYES

NOES

Ayes .. .. ..51

Noes .. .. ..40

Majority . . . . 11

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Original question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4487

ASSENT TO BILLS

Assent to the following Bills reported: States Grants (Advanced Education) Bil] 1971. States Grants (Secondary Schools Libraries) Bil] 1971.

States Grants (Universities) Bill (No. 2) 1971. Australian Commission on Advanced Education Bill 1971.

Australian Universities Commission Bill 1971.

page 4487

RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICES BILL 1971

Message received from the Senate intimating that it had agreed to the amendment made by the House of Representatives to this Bill.

page 4487

BILLS RETURNED FROM THE SENATE

The following Bills were returned from the Senate:

Without amendment -

Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1971-72. War Service Homes Bill 1971. Loan (War Service Land Settlement) Bill 1971. Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1971-72. States Grants Bill (No. 2) 1971. States Grants (Capital Assistance) Bill 1971. States Grants (Special Assistance) Bill 1971.

Without requests -

Approporiation Bil! (No. 1) 1971-72. Customs Tariff Validation Bill (No. 2) 1971.

page 4487

PROGRESS WITH SEVENTH STAGE OF TELEVISION DEVELOPMENT

Ministerial Statement

Sir ALAN HULME:
PostmasterGeneral · Petrie · LP

– by leave - Mr Speaker, in May 1969, I announced the Government’s plans for the seventh stage of television development, involving the establishment of 38 low-power stations at relatively remote centres throughout the Commonwealth, at a cost of almost $5m. It was generally accepted that the stations would be provided by mid-1973 although it was realised at the time that, in view of the .great amount of work involved, this goal might be difficult of achievement. As honourable members may recall, the stations were to be established on the basis that programmes would be provided by stations utilising, wherever practicable, Post Office broad-band communications systems, either existing or proposed, and that where such links were not available, special minimum- type micro-wave links would be specially provided to carry programmes to the areas concerned. It will be appreciated that the task of establishing the 38 stations concerned in widely separated areas throughout the Commonwealth is one of considerable magnitude, involving not only the planning and establishment of the television stations themselves, but the construction of the various programme relay links required over long distances. In fact, this project virtually doubles the number of stations in the national network bringing the total to 82. The project has involved the carrying out of extensive engineering surveys by the Australian Broadcasting Control Board in conjunction with my Department in each of the 38 areas concerned, in order to obtain the basic information for determining technical operating conditions. In addition, it has been necessary for my Department to conduct detailed field surveys along the lengthy routes over which the micro-wave links are to be established. lt has, however, already been possible to bring 5 of the 38 stations into operation, namely those at Cloncurry, Julia Creek, Richmond and Hughenden in Queensland, and Norseman in Western Australia. The Mary Kathleen station will commence service shortly. The earlier establishment of these stations was made possible by the fact that these centres were situated along existing Post Office communication links with television programme relay capabilities. The present position with regard to the remaining 33 stations is that most of the technical specifications for the stations have now been determined by the Board and action is being taken by the Post Office towards obtaining the equipment for the establishment of the stations and associated micro-wave links. It must bc pointed out, however, that some of the specialised equipment required for the project must be obtained from overseas.

Due to the complexity and great extent of the work involved, together with shortages of key staff, it became apparent earlier this year that the project could not possibly be completed by mid-1973 and that unless special procedures were adopted, a delay of some 2 years on the originally expected completion date for the project might be involved. Accordingly, I directed my Department which, as I have indicated, is responsible for the actual establishment of the stations following receipt of the technical specifications from the Board, to examine the possibilities of reducing any delays to the minimum practicable. The Post Office has now completed its studies and I have received from the Australian Broadcasting Control Board a revised timetable showing the dates by which the various stations are expected to be completed. I seek leave to incorporate the detailed schedule in Hansard. ifr SPEAKER-Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted. (The document read as follows)-

Sir ALAN HULME:

– In summary, and providing no unforeseen difficulties arise, particularly in relation to overseas equipment, it is expected that all of the Queensland stations will be completed by the end of 1973 and that the Western Australian stations will be established progressively up to July 1974. If should be noted that a special trunk line and television relay system must be provided for the Esperance station, hence the expected completion date for this station is July 1974. The 2 South Australian stations, namely at Woomera and Ceduna, will be completed by October 1973. The Alice Springs (NT) station will operate with the use of taped programmes because of the lack of a Post Office broadband communications link to the area, and will be completed by December 1972. The King Island (Tasmania) station will commence operations in February next year.

Honourable members may be assured that the Government, the Board and my Department all fully appreciate the desire of residents of relatively remote areas to have television available to them as early as practicable. The time-table which has now been determined is the most expeditious that can be arranged on the basis of present expectations. 1 would point out that it has only been possible to achieve these targets by the adoption of certain special procedures which, although involving some additional expenditure, will enable earlier establishment of the stations. 1 have, in addition, asked my Department to remain alert to take advantage of any possibilities which may arise that could lead to earlier completion dates, especially for these Western Australian stations presently scheduled for completion in 1974. I present the following paper:

Progress with Seventh Stage of Television Development - Ministerial Statement, 9th December 1971.

Motion (by Mr Garland) proposed:

That the House take note of the paper.

Mr COLLARD:
Kalgoorlie

– I wish to make a few comments in relation to the seventh stage television development programme in what the PostmasterGeneral (Sir Alan Hulme) referred to as relatively remote areas of the Commonwealth. Naturally I am mainly concerned with the programme as it applies to Western

Australia and, more particularly, to my electorate of Kalgoorlie. I do not consider some of the Western Australian areas in the programme to be relatively remote and this is one of the reasons why I am critical of the delay that is being experienced in the provision of a television service in those areas. I must express my disappointment and concern that, with the exception of Carnarvon, the Western Australian stations in the seventh stage will not come into operation until June 1973 in the case of the first station to be completed and until July 1974 in the case of the last station to be completed, that is, at Esperance. The PostmasterGeneral has informed the House that in regard to Esperance it has been found necessary’ to provide a special trunk line and television relay system which has meant a delay well beyond the date first expected.

The people at Esperance have become completely confused about what are the real causes of the delays and how far the delays will eventually extend. A public meeting in Esperance in February 1969, if my memory serves me correctly, was told by representatives of the Australian Broadcasting Control Board that a service should be available during 1972. Since that meeting many representations and inquiries have been made to both the PostmasterGeneral and the Control Board in an effort to obtain a firm completion date. The early answers we received soon made it quite clear that the date given in the first instance as a probability was in fact never even a possibility and should never have been suggested as such, lt was quite unfair and rather cruel to build up the hopes of the people in that way on something which could not be achieved in the time and which, it would now appear, was never intended to be achieved in the time. Subsequently, further inquiries were made and 1973 was given as the year in which the station could be expected to commence operations. Then at about the middle of this year we were told that it was unlikely that a service would be available before early 1974. Now we are told by the PostmasterGeneral that the target date is to be July 1974, almost 3 years away. Is it any wonder that the people of Esperance are expressing concern and resentment at the continual extension of the completion date? lt is no wonder that they see them selves no closer to a service today than they were led to believe they were over 2 years ago. 1 am far from satisfied that the station will be on the air by July 1974. J hope 1 am wrong. 1 am not satisfied because I have been told by both the PostmasterGeneral and the Control Board that the main delay in the establishment of this station results from the delay in obtaining broad band equipment from overseas. This delay is claimed to be 2 years. While the delay in the construction is blamed on the 2 year lag between ordering and delivery of equipment, the fact is that the equipment has not yet been ordered and, according to the information I have received, an order will not bc placed until early next year at the very best. I have been informed also that there is a 1-year delay in the importation of television station equipment which in tura, I understand, cannot be ordered until it is quite certain what is actually required following the establishment or receipt of the special trunk line or broad band equipment. If this is correct, and 1 have no reason to believe it is not, we have the following situation in relation to Esperance: If the broad band equipment is not ordered until early next year, say March, then delivery cannot be expected until at least March 1974.

The distance between the existing microwave link at Norseman and the station site at Esperance is approximately 120 miles, and therefore quite a bit of work will be entailed in covering that distance with the building of towers or the laying of cables as required. From what I have noted in relation to other extensions it will take much longer than 3 months to carry out that work. Therefore, because of the continual changes in estimating the completion date and the advice in relation to delays in delivery of equipment, and the fact that that equipment will not be ordered before early next year, I still remain to be convinced that the date given by the Postmaster-General tonight will be met.

With regard to the line to which the Minister referred as necessary to serve Esperence, I had hoped he would have given us something definite in regard to what is intended towards providing a television service to those centres along the line between Norseman and Esperance; places such as Salmon Gums and Grass Patch. I had hoped to hear whether the line could or would carry the facilities or equipment required whereby the centres referred to could be connected directly to the line or whereby a separate service could be provided. The station at Esperance will, I understand, be of very low power sufficient only to serve the town area. If this is so, it is a great pity and something needs to be done immediately in the planning stage at least to ensure that outlying areas will not suffer the same delays and frustrations as experienced at Esperance itself. I notice in the statement that Mingenew will not gain a service before May 1974. This seems to be rather ridiculous, as I see it, because Mingenew is situated right alongside the coaxial cable carrying television to Geraldton which has been in operation now for several months.

Surely there can be no good reason why a service cannot be established reasonably quickly. We were told 3 or 4 years ago that places like Mingenew, Mullewa and Morawa would have to wait until an experience was gained as to the extent of the signal from the Geraldton station. This was fair enough, but surely it does not take 5 years to gain that experience. If the Postmaster-General, the Australian Broadcasting Control Board or the Government - whichever is responsible- really wished to establish these stations as quickly as practicable, as the Postmaster-General has told us, they could have done so in a much shorter time than the statement proposes. Wc were told that Morawa, which is approximately 35 miles from Mingenew, would have to await the experience of the Mingenew service in relation to radius. Does this mean that Morawa will have to wait at least 3 or 4 years beyond the middle of 1974? That certainly seems to be the pattern which the Government is following. We were told a booster station would be provided for Mullewa as soon as the Geraldton area of service was known, and yet the Postmaster-General makes no mention of Mullewa at all. Does this mean that Mullewa is to be disregarded until after 1974?

These delays are just not good enough. In addition, insufficient information is given to us in relation to the real causes of the delay.

I notice that the Moora and Carnamah services are also in the 1974 period and yet they, as with Mingenew, are situated close by the coaxial cable. Three Springs, which is also on the cable route, will be a 1974 model. I would like to know whether this delay is also due to the delay in delivery following the ordering of equipment. Is that the reason? If so, it would be interesting to know whether, as with Esperance, the necessary equipment has not yet been ordered. Dampier and Port Hedland are not to be served before the middle of 1973, and most likely the end of 1973. I understand that the coaxial cable is all right, and if this is correct, why must there be a 2-year delay in establishing the stations? ls it again because the equipment has not been ordered? If this is so, we are entitled to know why it has not been ordered.

I note also that the Southern CrossBullfinch station completion target is not until lune 1973. Because that centre is right on the link between Perth and Kalgoorlie it seems quite unreasonable that whatever is required to connect Southern Cross cannot be quickly carried out. Kollyanobbing, an iron ore town some 30 miles from Southern Cross, can apparently, on the information I have received from the Postmaster-General, forget all about television unless its population, presently about 350, is substantially increased. It is only 30 miles from where a station will be set up, but there is no chance of a service in the foreseeable future under the approach of the present Government. According to what the Postmaster-General told me just recently, no plans, no surveys and no investigations have been made beyond this seventh stage programme, so therefore it is pretty clear that any area which will not be served by this seventh stage can forget its chances for several years to come, and at least until the very late 1970s. Naturally enough, I am delighted that such centres as Kalgoorlie, Kambalda, Norseman and Geraldton now have a station, and that Carnarvon will be serviced by the middle of next year.

I know from my own experience that until a person has a television service he does not realise what he is missing in relation to the several programmes and the information contained in some of them. Because of this, every possible action should be taken to extend the service as quickly and as widely as possible. I notice that the Postmaster-General does say that he has asked his Department to remain alert to any possibilities of advancing the completion dates of these other stations, and I sincerely hope that this can be attained and that in fact the dates will be advanced very considerably. As I sec it, they should have been and would have been advanced had not it been for the fact that in February this year the Government instructed all departments substantially to reduce their expenditure. 1 believe this was the real cause of the delay and the real reason why orders were not placed.

In conclusion, I take the opportunity of pointing out to the Minister that the service which Merredin people receive from Mawson is far from satisfactory resulting, I believe, from a weak signal. T hope that the PostmasterGeneral will take up this matter in the appropriate quarter to try to bring about a very quick improvement. It may be that the signal from Mawson could be strengthened, but this would perhaps only improve the picture at Merredin and do nothing to extend a satisfactory service east and north of Merredin. Therefore, as Southern Cross is to have a station at some time in 1973, if I remember correctly, and as it is 70 miles from Merredin it could well mean that the area between a few miles west of Southern Cross and a few miles east of Merredin would be no man’s land. If this is so, then the proper thing to do would be to establish a station at or near Merredin. As I have just said, I hope the Postmaster-General will take some heed of what I have said in this respect and that in addition he will let me know as early as possible what is intended so that I can pass on the information to those people who at present are ruining their eyes trying to look at a picture on a snowedup screen.

Dr PATTERSON:
Dawson

– 1 do not think that anybody will argue with the tremendous benefits which have accrued to those fortunate areas in the country with the advent of television. I can only endorse the remarks made by the honourable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr Collard) and try to emphasise to the PostmasterGeneral (Sir Alan Hulme) that the various problems associated with delays should bc solved because there are still many areas in Australia that deserve, qualify for and should get television as soon as possible. In regard to the 38 stations of which the Postmaster-General has given details tonight, 23 of them are in Queensland. I am sure that my colleague the honourable member for Oxley (Mr Hayden) would agree that that is a very good proportion. On the other hand there is a great need for television in the areas of Western Australia to which the honourable member for Kalgoorlie referred. While I am on my feet I would like to pay a tribute to the work force of engineers and other staff of the Postmaster-General’s Department who have worked continuously, one might say, over the years on the installation of television stations in the remote areas of Australia. These men are a dedicated band. I have met many of them in the north. I think they deserve commendation. 1 know that these men, particularly the engineers working in remote areas, are often frustrated by the lack of services and the delays in providing equipment from overseas. It is not the work force that is the problem, but the delays in providing equipment.

Let me refer to the target completion dates mentioned by the PostmasterGeneral. 1 assume that the list of television facilities he mentioned is not the complete list. 1 want to refer specifically to Queensland and to those areas in central Queensland that J would call the missing link. AH of the areas mentioned by the PostmasterGeneral follow railway lines, such as the Townsville-Mount Isa line, the ToowoombaCharlevilleCunnamulla line with links to Goondiwindi, Dirranbandi and St George, and the Rockhampton-Longreach line. I want to refer to the area north of Clermont, which is one of the stations mentioned. The area between Clermont and Charters Towers is what one might call a missing link. A lot of people - small cattle producers, big cattle producers and coal miners - live in this area. It is an area which is growing with tremendous rapidity.

I want to ask the Postmaster-General when the latest settlement in the Goonyella area can expect to get a booster station or translator service. There is a town growing rapidly there. I believe that there is a need to give television to the people in these areas as quickly as possible. I would like to ask the Postmaster-General about the standard of television services in the remote areas. As he well knows, many of the existing stations are not satisfactory. There are still bugs in them. I hope that some consideration will be given to ironing out these bugs.

The Postmaster-General will recall that on several occasions 1 have written to him about the Proserpine area. There seems to be some technical problem in that area which is causing very poor reception. 1 think that the Australian Broadcasting Control Board carried out a survey there approximately 12 months ago to try to iron out the technicalities that were causing the rather poor reception, particularly in places like Shute Harbour, Airlie Beach, Bloomsbury and Proserpine. The question is one not only of continuous construction to provide these facilities for people in the remoter areas of Australia but also of improving the existing facilities. I hope that consideration is given in the works programme to some , of these missing links and particularly lo the area, between Clermont and Charters Towers, in Area 3 of the Brigalow and in the Belyando-Suttor area. 1 hope that the programme will really concentrate on the new area of Goonyella and on the problems with the existing television stations.

Mr CORBETT:
Maranoa

– I want lo make some comments on the statement made by the Postmaster-General (Sir Alan Hulme). I was one of those who pressed him very strongly into endeavouring to provide television for the western areas at the earliest possible moment. The honourable member for Dawson (Dr Patterson) said that he had made representations to the Postmaster-General in this connection. If everyone had made representations to him on these matters as often as I have, his life would have been a pretty hard one. The honourable member for Kennedy (Mr Katter) and I really did press to get some statement from the Minister on this matter. 1 draw attention to the fact that he could have made these investigations and not made the statement that the stations’ were to be provided until the investigation were more advanced. He would have been under less criticism for the delay that has apparently occurred as a result of his having made early the announcement that these 38 low-power stations at relatively remote centres will be provided. I give the Minister credit for having given us this information as early as it was possible for him to do so, under the pressure that was put on him for the statement to be made.

I for one will give him credit for that. I have heard very little credit given to the Government for the fact that these 38 stations are to be provided. As the Minister said, this virtually doubles the number of stations in the national network, bringing the total to 82. It is a very big step forward. I appreciate very much, and I am sure that those people who have been advocating this have appreciated the fact that these stations are to be provided in those areas where television is very sorely needed, and where this benefit will be of much more importance than it is in areas which are provided with a number of channels and which have alternative means of entertainment and education. I will continue to ask the Postmaster-General to expedite this programme. I was pleased to note that in the last paragraph of his statement he said that he has, in addition to the programme mentioned there, asked the Department to remain alert to take advantage of any possibilities which may arise that could lead to earlier completion dates.

One of the reasons why this is important and why we appreciate it is that there are still some areas which have not been provided for or which are not in the programme and which deserve to have television. Let rae mention Quilpie, a town of some size in my area, which is so far west that it is not able to be included in this programme. No doubt television for that area will be provided only when this programme is completed. The statement of the Postmaster-General gives an indication of his anxiety and that of the Government to expedite the provision of the stations that are to be provided under this programme. Already, as he stated, there are five which have come into operation. He gave the reasons for this.

The need for television is very great. I have mentioned the different way of life of people living in remote areas and people living in the metropolitan areas, in regard to the amenities that are available and particularly education. Television helps to bridge this gap. The Government is to be very warmly commended. I appreciate the fact that the Postmaster-General has taken this step to promote this programme and to do all in his power and that of the Government to bring it to a conclusion and to provide these stations. In my area there has been agitation for a high-power station at Roma. Quite a number of representations have been made to the Minister along these lines. But the argument has been the cost related to the number of people that would be served. These 38 low-power stations are to be provided at a cost of some S5m. The cost per person has been pointed out by the Postmaster-General to be relatively high in comparison with the cost of providing television in the more closely settled areas and in the provincial and capital cities of the Commonwealth. At the same time I believe that there is a responsibility which the Government and the Postmaster-General have accepted, to carry that cost and to bring television to all towns of reasonable size right throughout this country. This is a very big step forward.

The thing that was worrying us was the amount of delay that could occur. I think it can be understood that because of the difficulty of surveying and the amount of time that was taken a delay would have been possible, and that with the manpower problems that have been met with it would be quite understandable that a programme could get a bit behind. Those of us concerned with this matter have been striving very hard to get a programme completion date. Once again 1 express my appreciation for the fact that a target completion date has now been provided, and we will look forward to seeing that that target completion date is met if possible. The honourable member for Kalgoorlie suggested that he had some doubts about whether this would be met. I think all the PostmasterGeneral can do in this direction is set a programme and endeavour to do the best he can to expedite it. It is true that the honourable member for Dawson and I mentioned places that do not have television reception, but we know that the percentage of people who are being served by television Commonwealth-wide is very high.

I welcome the statement by the PostmasterGeneral. I am sure it will be welcomed by all those people who will benefit, and I hope that we will see a further pro gramme on the completion of this one to provide those services which are not included in this programme. I congratulate the Postmaster-General and the Government on the steps that they have made, and I trust that the programme completion date se! out by the Postmaster-General now will be achieved.

Mr WALLIS:
Grey

– I do not wish to keep the House for very long, but as the 2 stations that are proposed to be erected in South Australia are both in my electorate there are a few words 1 would like to say. Unfortunately, when the PostmasterGeneral (Sir Alan Hulme) made a statement about the Ceduna area in 1969 the statement was in some way distorted and the people in the area were informed by the local Press that they were getting a powerful station which was to serve a pretty wide radius. Of course this was not the effect of the statement at all. A lot of people bought television sets because they expected that in the near future they would have a strong television station. Of course that was not so.

Since that statement 1 have asked the Postmaster-General on a number of occasions when we can expect the station to come into operation. It is good to know that at least a completion date has been set which the people in this area can be told. When it was discovered that the announcement by the Postmaster-General, to the effect that there was to be a large station in this area, was not correct, there was extreme disappointment. It is still a very hot question in this area and it is one on which I receive numerous letters. Everytime I visited the area I am approached by various people to see what can be done about it. A reply I received about providing a larger station in this area to cover a wider radius indicated that there were no suitable topographical features from which a high power station could operate. People at places such as Elleston, Streaky Bay and towns on the Eyre Peninsula in South Australia will still be without television. If this programme finishes in 1974 it will probably be 1976 or 1977 before those people can hope to get television in this area. Although it has been stated that the stations at Ceduna and Woomera will be in operation in October 1973, some further thinking and planning should be done on the pretty vast areas on the Eyre Peninsula of South Australia which still do not receive any television reception. 1 hope that this plan can be brought to fruition within the next few years.

Debate (on motion by Mr Giles) adjourned.

page 4494

QUESTION

IMPORT DUTY AND BOUNTY ENTITLEMENT ON CERTAIN WORK BOOKS

Ministerial Statement

Mr CHIPP:
Minister for Customs and Excise · Hotham · LP

– by leave - Honourable members will recall that in reply to a recent question in the Parliament I indicated that in accordance with a decision of the Customs Co-operation Council in Brussels as to the appropriate tariff classification of certain work books the Department of .Customs and Excise was obliged to classify these books in a category that carried 574 per cent duty. At the same time I said I would take up the question of the level of duties appropriate to such books with my colleague the Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Anthony). He has agreed with me that such a rate of duty is inappropriate to books that are, in effect, extensions of conventional text books - at least until the Tariff Board has presented its report on printed books and other products of the printing industry and the Government has had an opportunity to examine the whole question in depth. We are agreed it will be appropriate that 1 use the reserve powers of the Customs Tariff and make such work books a substitute for ordinary text books and thus free of import duty. They will qualify for bounty if printed in Australia subject to the usual conditions governing the grant of bounty. I have today signed a substitute notice to this effect.

Motion (by Mr Swartz) proposed:

That the House lake note of the paperDebate (on motion by Mr Daly) adjourned.

page 4494

STATEMENT CONCERNING THE DARWIN CENTRAL ZONE SEWERAGE SCHEME

Ministerial Statement

Mr HUNT (Gwydir- Minister for the Interior; - by leave - I would like to draw honourable members’ attention to the report tabled recently by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works dealing with the proposed construction of the central zone sewerage scheme at Darwin, Northern Territory. Honourable members will recall that the proposal was examined and endorsed by the Committee in mid 1969. Subsequently there was particularly strong public criticism qf the scheme and I felt it would be helpful for the people concerned to be given a further opportunity of putting forward their views and being questioned by members of this Parliament. The Parliament decided on 25th August, 1971 to refer the proposal back to the Committee for further investigation and report. After extensive inquiries involving the taking of lengthy submissions and evidence from government officers and private organisation and individuals, the Committee has concluded that it is not expedient to proceed with the proposal as submitted and has recommended to Parliament accordingly, with the further recommendation that the Government should reconsider the means of heating and disposing of sewage from the central zone. Several possible alternatives were suggested as warranting consideration. In accordance with the Committee’s recommendation that alternative schemes be looked at the Department of Works is now proceeding with further investigation. When these are completed the Government will again refer the matter io the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report. Present indications are that this will be proposed during the 1972 autumn session of Parliament.

Dr PATTERSON:
Dawson

– by leaveThis project has been one which 1 suppose can best be described as a most unfortunate one. It has a relatively long history. As the Minister for the Interior (Mr Hunt) has stated, after the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works had made the decision to accept the proposal put forward to it originally there was in effect some strong criticism by people living in Darwin. They had every justification for making that criticism because not enough attention was given to the actual treatment and disposal of the effluent. Subsequently, as we know, as the Minister said, the matter was referred to in the Parliament, it was sent back to the Committee and the Committee after lengthy evidence rejected the proposal. It is obvious that something has to be done. It is essential to provide a plant which will satisfactorily treat and dispose of the sewage from the central zone. This is of the utmost importance particularly in a Federal Territory where it is essential thai every detail in relation to pollution control and with respect to sewage is given priority. I am pleased to say that the Opposition supports the decision of the Government to give this project the priority which it deserves to enable the construction of a first class treatment and disposal plant.

Mr CALDER:
Northern Territory

– by leave - 1 also support the proposal to refer this proposed scheme to the Department of Works so that it can produce a new plan. As one who originally had been concerned to a considerable degree in having this matter referred to the Department I feel I should say something on this subject. It was the opinion of the Darwin Port Authority, the opinion of some 30-odd doctors as well as the towns people which convinced me that the Government should have another look at this project. In regard to future schemes of this sort, I would urge the planners to look very carefully into the possible effects of effluent being discharged into tropical waters because we really do not know very much about this. I think that this is something which should be very carefully studied. It is suggested the outflow from this sewage plant will go into the Leanyer Swamp area situated on the north side of Darwin. This area at present is an open swamp but later it may well become a residential area. So I warn the Government against taking what could be an easy way out of this problem; it may find itself in quite a lot of trouble later on.

The only other matter I would urge the Government to look at is the venting system which may be put in. In tropical areas we get very heavy pollution out of these vents which I think were included in one of the original proposals for this project. They are the points I wanted to refer to the Government.

page 4495

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr Swartz) agreed to: That the House, at its rising, adjourn until a dale and hour to be fixed by Mr Speaker, which time of meeting shall be notified by Mr Speaker to each member by telegram or letter.

page 4495

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motion (by Mr Swartz) proposed:

That leave of absence be given to every member of the House of Representatives from the determination of this sitting of the House to the date of its next sitting. (Quorum formed.)

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4495

RETIREMENT OF MR A. G. TURNER, C.B.E., CLERK OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Mr SPEAKER:

– Honourable members will be aware that Mr Alan Turner, the Clerk of the House, will retire today and that this is the last sitting of the House at which he will be officiating at the table. Mr Turner’s retirement will bring to a close a notable and lengthy career associated with the working of the Commonwealth Parliament and particularly with this House. Mr Turner joined the staff of the House as a young man in Melbourne in 1924 and early in his career was Speaker’s Secretary, having served Speakers Watt, Groom and Makin in that capacity. Apart from a period of secondment to the Department of Supply and Shipping between 1942 and 1945 during the War years. Mr Turner has served the House continuously over a period of 47 years. He has been a Chamber officer since 1946, having been Serjeant-at-Arms and Clerk of Committees from 1946 to 1949, Second Clerk Assistant from 1949 to 1955, Clerk Assistant from 1955 to 1958, and Clerk of the House from 1st January 1959. His Clerkship has been a notable one. Features of it were the major revision of the Standing Orders of the House which was undertaken between 1960 and 1963 and the re-organization of the staff of the House of Representatives to meet the greatly expanded and developing requirements of the House. He was made a Commander of the Order of the British Empire by Her Majesty the Queen in 1965.

As Clerk of the House, Mr Turner has on 3 occasions accompanied Speakers of the House lo conferences of Presiding Officers and Clerks of the Parliaments of the Commonwealth of Nations, and has also accompanied me to, and participated in, each of the 4 conferences of Presiding Officers and Clerks of the Australasian/ Pacific Area. Honourable members would wish me to refer to the extra-parliamentary services which Mr Turner has rendered to this Parliament. In 1958 he was the Secretary of the Australian delegation which attended the Inter-Parliamentary Union conference held in Rio de Janeiro. From 1958 to 1971 he has been the Honorary Secretary/Treasurer of the Commonwealth of Australia Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and in that capacity has served the Branch with great dedication and has achieved much in furthering Australia’s interests and reputation in the affairs of that Association. As Secretary of the Commonwealth Branch delegation he has attended many Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conferences. As Branch Secretary he played a major role in the organisation of the highly successful conferences which were held in Australia in 1959 and 1970. Also as Secretary of the Commonwealth Branch delegation he has attended Australian Area Conferences of the Association which are held every second year.

No tribute to Mr Turner’s services would be complete without reference to the wonderful support he has received from his wife, Mrs Turner. Mrs Turner, herself the daughter of a former member of this House, Mr G. A. Maxwell, K.C., has on many occasions over the years spared no effort in graciously receiving and entertaining visiting parliamentarians and Clerks and their wives and for so doing deserves our very warm and grateful appreciation. Mr Turner has served this House and this Parliament with great distinction. A great many members over a very lengthy period will recall with gratitude his courteous help and assistance, not only as Clerk of the House, but also as honorary secretary of the Commonwealth Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. May I as Speaker say that I have greatly appreciated working with Mr Turner, that I have always respected his wise judgment and experienced counsel, and I thank him very sincerely for the ready assistance and support which he has always given me and all members of this House. In saying our official farewell to Alan Turner after a lifetime of service to this House, I assure him that he leaves with our sincere respect and gratitude and we wish him and Mrs Turner health and happiness for the future.

Mr McMAHON:
Prime Minister · Lowe · LP

– The greatest compliment that I could pay to Mr Turner is to say that many of us, perhaps all of us, treat him as a personal friend. We have great personal regard for him, for his integrity and for the fact that he is a person that is so easily liked and continuously courteous. He is always willing to give us assistance no matter what time of the day or night we approach him and he always gives us the right sort of information and keeps us on the right track.

Mr Speaker, as you have so well said, Mr Turner has bad a long and distinguished association with this Parliament. Incredible though it may seem, his parliamentary experience extends over 47 years. During that time he has served the House as you have so well said, Mr Speaker, in many capacities and has been involved in many, many areas of its operations. When there.fore he attained his present position some 12 years ago, he brought as we all know a wealth of experience which has proved invaluable in the exercise of his duties and enabled him to exert a considerable degree of influence on the workings of the House.

The role of the Clerk of the House has always been a key one in our parliamentary system of government because upon it devolves responsibilities for the procedures that enable Parliament as an institution to function efficiently and smoothly. Mr Turner has upheld the finest traditions of his office. His wise and friendly counsel has been availed of by both sides - Government and Opposition alike. He has also made an outstanding contribution in the sphere of interparliamentary relationships. For many years now Mr Turner has taken a keen interest in the activities of the Interparliamentary Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and has represented this Parliament at many conferences of these bodies. I therefore want to place on record our appreciation of his services and wish him many years of his well-deserved retirement.

May [ join with you, Mr Speaker, in saying that we are sorry that Mr Turner is for the time being leaving the precincts of the House and that his wife also will not be with us on so many occasions in future as she has in the past when we have been delighted to talk to her and to share the companionship of both of them. We wish them both many, many years of happy retirement and we certainly wish that they will come back frequently and see us again.

Mr WHITLAM:
Leader of the Opposition · Werriwa

Mr Speaker, as the Presiding Officer of the House you have admirably expressed the views which every honourable member feels for the retiring Clerk. You have acknowledged the services that he has rendered to Parliament as a world institution. In several countries the view has been volunteered, to me by members and officers of the Parliament there that they know, respect and like our Mr Turner. In this Parliament we are greatly in his debt - all of us are. He is a most competent and thoroughly professional servant of the institution. He has ever been a student of politics but never a practitioner of politics. He knows the history of the institution, the practice of the institution and the worth of the institution as few people can.

For 13 years Mr Turner has served the House as its Clerk. There are scarcely SO members of the House today who were members of it when Mr Turner became Clerk. For 11 years, during which I have been Deputy Leader or Leader of the Opposition, I would have visited Mr Turner in his room at least once a week. I have never failed to come away from those calls better informed; I have often come away wiser. On every occasion I have felt appreciation for the expert, appropriate advice he has given. In an intensely political institution he is a man who earns and receives the respect, the confidence and the trust of every honourable member. My colleagues and I are particularly in his debt, not because he favours us politically - I do not know what his political beliefs are - but because we have to depend on officers of the House so much more. I hope the House will pardon me a little sentiment. I first became aware of Mr Turner possibly before any member of the House. I came to live in Canberra at the beginning of 1928 and at that time he had already been here for almost a year. Whilst I was in the secondary classes at Telopea Park School a new female kindergarten teacher came to the school - a very vision of delight, all we secondary students felt.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Even (hen.

Mr WHITLAM:

– And I still do. We envied this debonair, discreet young man from the staff of the Parliament who won her. They are a splendid couple. Nothing pleased me more on becoming a member of Parliament than being able to meet them more on a parity than 1 had when I first saw them and observed them with all the fascination which people of that age devote to the activities of their more glamorous elders.

This institution continues, whatever happens to its members and its officers. We can certainly be sure that the officers who will succeed Mr Turner will be more professional, more competent than they would have been because the Clerk has set them such an excellent example. No man is irreplaceable, as Mr Turner would be the first to admit. Those who succeed him will be all the better men and all the better servants of this institution because he, by his example and his precept, has inspired them.

Mr ANTHONY:
Minister for Trade and Industry · Richmond · CP

– This is a notable and memorable occasion - that of the retirement of our esteemed Clerk - and I should like to join with the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) in supporting the very fine tribute that you, Mr Speaker, paid to Mr Alan Turner. On behalf of the Australian Country Party I should like to pay our tribute for his long and distinguished career in this Parliament and congratulate him for the respect that he has earned for himself and the very high standard that he has set for any future Clerk of this Parliament. He is a most unobtrusive man. He is probably heard over the air regularly as being the only person who speaks without emotion, either reading petitions or announcing the introduction of Bills. But he is a tremendously important person here. In fact, it is the Clerk and those who serve underneath him who provide continuity for the most important institution in this country. We thank Mr Turner for the really outstanding and excellent job he has done.

We thank him too for the valuable contribution that he has made to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the support and advice that he has given to members of this Parliament when they have gone overseas to attend various conferences. Mr Turner is held in extremely high regard at these conferences and he would be looked upon as one of the most knowledgeable and most experienced men throughout the Commonwealth countries. I am glad, Mr Speaker, that you also made reference to Mrs Turner. Most of us know her well. Both Mr Turner and Mrs Turner are extremely friendly, pleasant and happy people. We will miss their presence around this House but we do hope to see them about in the future. I wish them a long and a happy life in their retirement and express our gratitude for the very valuable service Mr Turner has given to this Parliament and to Australia.

Mr COPE:
Sydney

– I should like to endorse the eloquent remarks of the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) and the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Anthony) in regard to the service of Mr Turner in this House over many years. The Leader of the Opposition mentioned - -quite rightly so - that probably all of us have been to see Mr Turner in his office and have come away wiser men. Probably we should have gone more often. However, being one of the deputy chairmen, I appreciate the fact that Mr Turner has always exhibited complete non-partisanship in his position. When one is in the Chair, of course it is an onerous job. We have to keep our eyes on fellows like Winton Turnbull and others in the House to see that they do not play up. However, I can assure you Mr Speaker, that on all occasions, irrespective of who breaks a standing order, Mr Turner has always advised the occupant of the Chair of the standing order, whether he be a Government member or a member of the Opposition.

Most of the remarks that I should have liked to have made have already been said, but I heartily congratulate Mr Norman

Parkes on his accession to the throne as Clerk of the House to succeed Mr Turner because Norman also has given excellent guidance to all those in the Chair. He is completely non-partisan. Finally, I wish Alan Turner and Mrs Turner the very best in their years of retirement.

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · Darling Downs · LP

– I should like to add my tribute and my thanks to Mr Turner. He has brought to his office all the great qualities that one expects of it - complete integrity, complete capacity in his job and complete impartiality. There would not be a member of this chamber who is not indebted to him and I am sure that I speak for all present when I say ‘Thank you very much indeed for your work. You have contributed great service to the Parliament and added much to the history of this country’. Mr Turner’s career has indeed been a magnificent one, reaching back to his appointment as an officer of the House of Representatives 47 years ago and, finally, recognised by Her Majesty the Queen. Mr Turner retires tomorrow. He leaves a service that he has worked for since he was 18 except for 4 years during the war. He can look back on a great career ranging through various offices in the House. He can also look back on his work in revising the Standing Orders, in the Inter-Parliamentary Union conferences, Commonwealth Parliamentary Association meetings and conferences of presiding officers and clerks. It has been a magnificent career forged in the only place where the essential specialised knowledge can be gained - that is, the Parliament itself. Add to this a personal good humour and an innate friendliness and we have Alan Turner the professional and Alan Turner the man. I can assure Mr Turner that each and every honourable member of this House has the greatest admiration for him. We have a great appreciation of the 12 years valuable service he has rendered to this Parliament and we express the hope that he and Mrs Turner will be long spared to enjoy the happiness that their retirement will bring.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– As one who came into the Parliament at the same time as the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon), and the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) and as one who has enjoyed the help which Mr Turner has given me from time to time, I should like to say something about Mr Turner. One thing about him that 1 think should be placed on record is that at no time would any member of the Parliament from either side have cause to feel that a conversation in confidence with Mr Turner as to tactics - since 1 have been here my tactics have been devoted entirely towards defeating the Government - would ever reach the ears of the other side. This was proved on many occasions by the fact that the Prime Minister was so often taken by surprise when clever moves by myself and my colleagues were implemented as a consequence not of partisan advice but of straight advice from the Clerk as to what the law was and what the Standing Orders provided. 1 will never forget the look of amazement on the face of the present Prime Minister once when I moved a motion that was designed to throw him off guard. He has not really recovered from it. I do not think the Prime Minister should blame Mr Turner for this because I was the one who originated the idea. He simply low me how to do it. In any event, there is nothing much that the Prime Minister can do about the matter now.

I hope that Mr Turner will feel free to visit the House and to be in the precincts of the House as often as he likes - not to come occasionally or in the distant future, as somebody suggested we might be fortunate enough to see him. I hope that his good lady will come here quite often and not feci that she has to wait to be asked to visit us as was suggested, not by intent, by some speaker. Mr Turner looks very young because he only has to count votes and does not have to win them. I congratu- late him for succeeding in getting in on the salary rises before the rises start to go down. His timing was excellent. 1 cannot think of a belter way of doing it . than the way he has done it. I am sure that he will be the envy of many First Division officers in the future. Of course, as an honourable member interjects, he will be the envy of many back benchers.

I am pleased that we have following Mr Turner our good friend Mr Parkes. I never felt free to speak to either Mr Turner or Mr Parkes on Christian name terms. I never got to the point which my friend Mr

Cope has reached but he, of course, being a Deputy Chairman of Committees has an advantage over we lesser mortals. But I am pleased that Mr Turner is being succeeded by Mr Parkes because I will feel free to go to him with clever little plans to deal with the Government, just as 1 felt free to go to Mr Turner. I know that next year when the Opposition tries to put clever little plans over the Government we on the Government side will not have been given the slightest inkling of the plans that are afoot. But that will not worry us because most of us have been brought up in the hard school of union politics, and plans which appear to be clever to the present Government will not appear to be clever to the future Government. I hope that Mr Turner will have a happy retirement. I hope that he will come along here often and that he will be as free with his advice in the future as he has been in the past because I will be ready to accept it.

Mr LUCOCK:
Lyne

-!. should like to be associated with the remarks that have been made this evening by the various speakers before me, and should also like to associate with my remarks my Deputy Chairmen. Mr Speaker, I am delighted, as I am sure you are, to be forewarned by the honourable member for Hindmarsh (Mr Clyde Cameron) of his plans for next year. We will really appreciate that innocent look that he sometimes has on his face when we, with the advice of the Clerk, give certain rulings and he looks as though it is not possible that we could give such rulings against him. I should like to say how greatly indebted 1 am for the advice, assistance and friendship that have been given to me and to all members by Mr Turner. In the period that it has been my privilege to be a Deputy Chairman and now Chairman of Committees and Deputy Speaker I have always found that the advice given by Mr Turner has been in the best interest of this House of Parliament.

Mention has been made of the contribution that Mr Turner has made both to this House and to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I think we can say that Mr Turner has made his mark on this Parliament and in world affairs. He is known and appreciated at conferences of parliamentarians everywhere, and hia contribution in that regard has been to the honour and uplifting of this institution of ours and to our parliamentary way of life. I do not want to repeat many of the things that have been said by other speakers regarding Mr Turner’s capacity and ability. All I can say is that I heartly endorse those remarks. I believe that the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) about the early days and Mr Turner’s capacity and ability indicate why Mr Turner was able to face with equanimity some of the things which he had to face in this House, particularly in the early hours of the morning. 1 think that one thing should be mentioned which reveals the character, the sense of tradition and the ability of Mr Turner perhaps above all else, and that is the respect and affection in which he is held by the members of his staff. This is so because of his honesty of purpose and the contribution he has made by the work he has performed. It became no longer work but a service to the Parliament and to the community. We appreciate also that it has been said, and said truly, that no man can make a contribution that is accepted and remarked upon by all unless he has been supported by a wife who gives him support in every sphere and in every way. Those of us who have had an association with Mr Turner in both this Parliament and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association know the assistance and the value of the assistance given by Mrs Turner. As we pay a tribute to him we also pay tribute to her. I join with all those who have wished them both well in their retirement. I hope that Mr Turner thinks of us kindly. If ever he is awake at 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning he will think with joy that he is in peace and quiet while we are trying to legislate the business of the country.

May I briefly add my congratulations and best wishes to Mr Parkes as he comes in and takes over the duties that have been performed by Mr Turner. We know that Mr Parkes wil follow the tradition, the example and the standard set by the one whom we honour and respect this evening.

Mr DALY:
Grayndler

Very briefly though nonetheless sincerely I desire to associate myself with the sentiments which have been so nicely expressed about Mr Turner and his good wife tonight. When one remembers that he has given almost 50 years of service to the Parliament, that in itself is a remarkable record. In that time he has built up a personal record of friendship with those who have been associated with him. He has lived in some very notable periods in the history of this country. He has seen some good days and some bad days. He has seen in every way in this Parliament the progress of the nation. That he has rendered service in such a way as to bring forth the tributes which have been paid to him tonight shows that he has a commendable record in the public life of this country. 1 think that there is always something sad or sentimental at a time when a man’s career is ending, and this must be a somewhat sad moment for Mr Turner. We have our parting with him, but tonight he walks out of this place and away from surroundings which no doubt are known to him like his home. He commences a new life after almost i alf a century of work in this place. I think that the greatest things he will remember from his service in this Parliament - I hope he does - are the tributes paid to him tonight for the record of service which he has given, a record which is appreciated by those of us who are here now and by many who possibly are no longer wilh us. The voices of the various leaders in this Parliament and of various members were raised tonight, and I hope that down through the happy years ahead they will ring out and bring back to him constant and happy memories of our association with him and his good wife. 1 wish Mr Turner very good luck and good health in his retirement. 1 hope that occasionally if he does not listen to other members he will tune in to me now and again. If I really know that he is listening I will disobey the Standing Orders and possibly give him a cheerio call. Might I say also that after 50 years in the service of anyone I should like to look as young as he does and have as much hair on my head as I see on his tonight. I wish him and his good wife very good luck and a very merry Christmas. We know he will have it but, as he knows, some of us will not.

Mr HAYDEN:
Oxley

– I too would like briefly to convey my very warm and sincere best wishes to Mr and Mrs Turner on this occasion. 1 owe a debt of gratitude to Mr Turner for many courtesies and for the many occasions on which he has been helpful to me, but most of all, for his discretion and confidence. As other honourable members have observed, he has given long and loyal service and, more particularly, he has left his mark here because as Clerk of the House he has given a particular style of service. It is difficult to define,, to explain or discuss. But, nevertheless, it is obvious to all of us who have watched him- in the Chair.

I have been a member of this Parliament for 10 years now, and the time seems to go very fast. 1 note that Mr Turner has been here for nearly half a century. But 1 recollect that in the first week I was here I was invited round to his office with quite a number of new members to share a convivial drink. In those days 1 was rather insufferable with my political prejudices and probably I was becoming somewhat intolerable to him in explaining and trying to impress upon him how heaven resided on this side of the chamber alone and how all biases, unfairness and so on existed on the other side of the chamber, especially on the part of a certain burly member named Menzies who was around here in those days. Rather discreetly - and I have always appreciated this because it helped to give me some balance - Mr Turner retold to me a story about Ben Chifley who, of course, is quite revered in my Party. He told me of an occasion when Ben Chifley was having difficulty at a Premiers Conference. The 6 Premiers were disagreeing strongly with him. Ben Chifley said: ‘All right. We will put it to the vote’. After the vote had been counted, Ben Chifley said: ‘Six ayes and one no - the noes have it’. That was a small lesson to me.

T often sit in this House and wonder what goes through the mind of the Clerk of the House. This thought has occurred to other people. That member of whom 1 spoke earlier, who has now quite an illustrious position of Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, once wrote this poem about the role of the Clerk of the House:

Two wise old owls sat on the table;

Their wigs were grey; (heir gowns were sable;

They looked so sad, so melancholy,

As if depressed by the human folly. Around them, carelessly displayed, Were all their dreadful tools of trade The standing orders, votes, and motions, The statutes, May, and such like notions.

It all sounds very dreadful and makes these people look as though they are men of extreme dedication in the face of what must be great trials and tribulations and not a little bit of distress. Frank Green, as Clerk of the House, put the position nicely in perspective when he wrote in retort:

If we look glum and vacant stare, When wigged and seated ‘neath the Chair, Please do not think ‘tis Nature’s way. It’s rather service for our pay. For if some thoughts we darc repeat, We’d find ourselves out in the street. 1 think that that is an eminently practical expression of feeling. I extend to Mr and Mrs Turner every good wish in their retirement.

Mr ALLAN FRASER:
Monaro · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Having known Mr Turner since the first day that he came into the service of the House of Representatives in Melbourne in 1924, I wish to join very heartily in and to endorse every word of tribute that has been paid to him tonight and to support the wishes that have been expressed to him and to Mrs Turner for their retirement.

Mr MARTIN:
Banks

– As a member of the lower deck, I wish to say a few words of appreciation and thanks to Mr Turner on my own behalf and, I am certain, on behalf of those new members of the Parliament who came here in October 1969. The aspect that impressed me when I came into the Parliament was its extreme efficiency. It is a saying - and I think a true saying - that it is the captain who runs the ship, lt is true to say also that any ship will founder when going through troubled waters unless it has good and skilled captain.

In my experience in the Parliament since 1 have been here - it is only a short time - I have noticed that the parliamentary institution itself has had a few holes put in it but that they seemed to have been plugged effectively, no doubt because of the skill of the captain. By captain’ I refer to the Clerk, Mr Alan Turner. On behalf of the newer members of the Parliament,I express appreciation to Mr Turner for the courtesies that he extended to us when we arrived here as raw recruits. He organised training classes for us. He organised classes of instruction on how the Parliament operates. I can truly say that, without that training and without that assistance, we could not possibly have done the job for which we were elected. On behalf of the newer members of the Parliament,I say thank you.

I think that I can also say thank you on behalf of the often unsung section of the parliamentary staff, that is, the attendants and the other lower ranked members of the staff of this Parliament. I had fairly close association with these people when I discussedwith Mr Turner some problems relating to the wages and conditions of House attendants. I received very good advice from Mr Turner in this regard, and I appreciate it. As a result of that advice, certain action was taken. The attendants of this House and the lower paid section of thestaff of this House did receive justified salary increases. On their behalf, Mr Turner, I say thank you.

I also express appreciation for a few well chosen words of advice that I received from Mrs Turner very early in the piece, during a function when Her Majesty the Queen was here. Mrs Turner told me that if I followed her husband’s advice I would not go very far wrong. I think that we would all doubt whether anybody in the House could go wrong if he followed Mr Turner’s advice. I wish you a very well earned retirement and a happy and holy Christmas for yourself, your wife and family. I wish you a prosperous New Year.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

– The tributes that have been paid to the Clerk of the House tonight are worthy of him. He would not be worthy of those remarks had he not had the quality to hear courteously, to answer wisely, to consider soberly and, above all, to act impartially. For these great attributes that he possesses, we all love him.

page 4502

SALARIES (STATUTORY OFFICES) ADJUSTMENT BILL 1971

Bill returned from the Senate with amendments.

Motion (by Mr Swartz) agreed to:

That the amendments be taken into consideration in the Committee of the Whole House forthwith.

In Committee

Senate’s amendments.

Leave out clauses 2. to 5. (inclusive) and the Schedules, insert the following clauses and Schedules: -

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · Darling Downs · LP

– I move:

The Government takes this action to ensure that the salaries of those statutory officers which are included in the Bill and which would terminate at a specified time unless this Bill is passed will continue. The Government accepts the amendments on the basis of ensuring that these statutory offices covered by the Bill will continue. The question of the flow-on following the recent award by the Public Service Arbitrator is a matter that will be taken into account by the Government.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The Opposition supports the amendments. We agree with the remarks of the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz). Unless these amendments by the Senate are accepted there will be no salaries at all for certain statutory officers. The Senate has rejected the increased salaries that were proposed in the Bill, which was passed by us “and which was sent to the Senate. Those salaries have been rejected overwhelmingly and decisively. Unless these amendments are adopted, certain statutory officers will not receive even the salaries that they were receiving previously. They will receive no salary at all. For that reason, we accept and agree with the motion moved by the Leader of the House.

Mr WHITLAM:
Leader of the Opposition · Werriwa

– There are a couple of matters that I wish to raise on this Bill. Firstly, the ‘Canberra News’ this afternoon states: . . Labor Caucus decided to try to cancel increases recently granted to Second Division officers of the Commonwealth Public Service, but is still considering how to go about this unprecedented move.

I can only presume that the author of this report has misunderstood what the Labor caucus did decide on this matter last Wednesday evening. The Opposition decided to reconsider its attitude to this Bill in the light of the comments which the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr Lynch) made about salary and wage restraint. It decided that it would now oppose the increases in this Bill when it was considered in the Senate. As we know, the Senate has accepted the Opposition’s attitude. At no time did the Opposition consider the position of second division officers of the Commonwealth Public Service; in any case, increases in their salaries do not come before the Parliament by way of legislation. There was no reference made to their situation at all by caucus. The only reference made was to the holders of statutory offices.

The remaining matter I want to state is this: Of all the Bills dealing with salaries of the highest paid persons in Commonwealth employment, this is the only one which has proceeded. Since there have been remarks outside the House as to the attitude that the House should take on such matters, I recall - and it is appropriate that I should because the author of the recommendations, Sir Frank Richardson, was in the Speaker’s Gallery earlier - that there was an occasion in 1959 when a committee made recommendations concerning’ increases in salaries, allowances and pensions for everybody in the Parliament and also for persons who hold better remunerated positions in the Parliament. On that occasion the Government abandoned some of the recommendations with regard to the better remunerated persons in the Parliament. It has not been the unvarying practice to take recommendations as a whole and accept them as a whole. In the only conversation I have had on this matter with the Prime Minister I pointed out this precedent. Relying on his memory–

Mr McMahon:

– When was that?

Mr WHITLAM:

– At about 8.15, I suppose, on Wednesday night behind the Speaker’s chair.

Mr McMahon:

– You have made a mistake. You were not there and neither was 1. 1 spoke to you about 2.30.

Mr WHITLAM:

– Everybody in the House saw us go behind the Speaker’s chair with the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) so everybody here has, from his own observation, an instance of the Prime Minister’s accuracy or his phenomenal memory. I quoted this precedent and the right honourable gentleman, relying on his memory, doubted it. I checked and my memory was accurate. I merely point this out. There have been previous reports where the more highly remunerated people have not got the amounts recommended. We are not going to discuss any of the other Bills; it might be out of order. But the altitude of my Party is, I should tell the Parliament, that the amounts accepted by the Government in respect of all members of Parliament we thought were proper. Those which were accepted by the Government for the more highly remunerated persons in the Parliament were regarded as inappropriate. I take it that that is why the Salaries Bill for first division people has been abandoned and why, of course, the Senate accepted the attitude of the Opposition in respect of the holders of statutory offices. The Opposition thought it singularly inappropriate that on Tuesday night we should all be adjured to show restraint and that before dinner the following night there should be very large increases proposed for the persons who are most highly remunerated by the Commonwealth.

Mr McMAHON:
Prime Minister · Lowe · LP

– We on this side of the House feel that it is regrettable that in another place some of the salaries of statutory offices should be reduced. They were legitimately granted in accordance with proper work value appreciations. However, we feel that the Bill should go through because unless it becomes law the officers will not be entitled to the salaries that are presently payable to them. The Australian Labor Party must, of course, take responsibility for the failure to permit these people to obtain the money to which they are justly entitled. I now refer to what has been said by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam). What he has said about speaking to me behind the Speaker’s chair is totally untrue, and this can be verified by my colleague, the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz). It so happened that I spoke to him immediately before question time and not in the evening. I never feel it is appropriate to refer to what has happened behind the Speaker’s chair-

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Hear, hear!

Mr McMAHON:

– Yes, hear, hear. But the Leader of the Opposition took this liberty himself.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Speeches are all right but we do not want to hear the other things.

Mr McMAHON:

– We did not want to hear the honourable member for Hindmarsh (Mr Clyde Cameron) too much either. The Leader of the Opposition came to rae and said: ‘The Opposition will be objecting to (a) and (b).’ 1 said: ‘What do you mean by that?’ He said: ‘Really, 1 do not know’. That was the actual conversation I had with him.

Mr Keogh:

– He could not have told you that after question time.

Mr McMAHON:

– lt was before question time. I will not go any further. The Leader of the Opposition referred to one or two details. My colleague then said that this could be stood over for the time being and a few other remarks were passed. I do want to point out that the time was wrong and the substance of the statement was wrong. Having said that, it at least indicates where the accuracy of memory resides.

Mr WHITLAM (Werriwa - Leader of the Opposition) - I wish to make a personal explanation.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Lucock:
LYNE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Does the honourable member claim to have been misrepresented?

Mr WHITLAM:

– I. have been misrepresented, it is hard to believe, by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon). The conversation I had with the Prime Minister related to the Parliamentary Allowances Bill and the Ministers of State Bill (No. 2). Those Bills came in just before 6 o’clock last Wednesday and I spoke to the Prime Minister after the House resumed just after 8 o’clock. I did not see the Bills until other honourable members saw them in the House just before 6 o’clock. The Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) spoke to me on the Opposition front bench. We repaired behind the Speaker’s chair and spoke with the Prime Minister. I made refernce to the Richardson Report on that occasion, the only occasion I have ever discussed it with the Prime Minister. This was just after 8 o’clock on Wednesday night.

Mr SWARTZ (Darling Downs- Minister for National Development) - by leave - I wish to make a statement in relation to this matter. I do not think the particular time is important and I am merely quoting from recollection in relation to this incident. To the best of my memory - of course, I may be wrong - the discussion took place when I referred the matter to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) and suggested to him that he could perhaps discuss the matter with the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon). The Leader of the Opposition did come round and the matter was discussed. To the best of my recollection it was about the time petitions were being read. 1 may again be wrong, but 1 am merely saying that this is the best of my recollection. I can merely confirm that to the best of my knowledge that was the time.

Mr SCHOLES:
Corio

– I think that this is a farcical situation, lt is beneath the dignity of the Committee to be discussing it at this time but I think the facts should be put before the Parliament. The Prime Minister (Mr McMahon), the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) were behind and slightly to the right of the Chair at between 8.5 and 8.10 last night within 10 minutes of the Opposition Party meeting adjourning. I could not say what they were discussing, but they were there and they discussed certain matters. Anyone who says they were not there was either nol in the House or is deliberately trying to mislead the Committee.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– 1 want to say something about the remarks made by the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) w’.-.en he sought to defend the extraordinarily high salaries that had been set for certain statutory officers at a time when the Government was calling upon the ordinary wage plug in the community for restraint. Here we have a government which is telling the man getting $50, $60 or $70 a week that he has to be content to accept that wage and no more and telling the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission that it cannot increase the minimum national wage of $47 a week because the country cannot afford it, while at the same time he is recommending increases in salaries amounting to several thousand dollars a year. This is just the kind of thing that this county is complaining about. The Government has no right to stand up in this place and fix salaries as high as $29,000 a year for certain statutory officers and certain other people employed by the Commonwealth who are indicated in this Bill, with increases ranging as high as $6,000 a year or $120 a week, and then have the check to tell the Arbitral on Commission that the ordinary family man has to try to maintain a wife and family on a miserable $47 a week.

Why, the average weekly earnings in Australia over the last quarter were only $89 a week. That is an average arrived at by lumping together the salary thai lnc Prime Minister himself gets, about 88UU a week, plus the salaries of the people he is now proposing to increase to $29,000 a year with the salaries of the poor de.. ls who have to try to maintain a family on $50 or $60 a week. It is a disgrace. I he Government has no right to come into mis place and talk about restraint on the part of the poor devil getting $50 or St.O a week with a family to maintain, educate, feed and clothe while in the same breath it has the hide to come into this place and ask us to approve of salaries as high as $29,000 a year for other people. These people who are already getting $22,000 a year are well able to meet the Government’s demand for restraint. They are hatter able to respond to the Government’s call for restraint than are the poor devi’s on $50 or $60 a week. It is the height of hypocrisy for the Prime Minister to sit there and grin -

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Lucock:

– Order! The honourable member for Hint’ harsh will restrain himself.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– How can I when there are people on $50 or $60 a week trying to maintain a family while this man is on $800 a week and telling others to restrain themselves and keep down their wage demands, lt is an absolute disgrace.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! The honourable member for Hindmarsh will restrain himself.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– 1 am telling the truth.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I ask the honourable member to withdraw the word ‘hypocrisy’.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– 1 withdraw the statement that the Prime Minister is hypocritical. But I have another took it him and I wonder whether I ought .o withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! The honourable member has been in this place long enough to know Standing Orders. I asked him to respect them.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I withdrew the word.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I know that the honourable member withdrew it, but I remind him of what I said.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I said that I had had another look at him and 1 was wondering whether I should withdraw. When the Prime Minister goes to a certain place one night not so long ago with Sir Frank Packer and 7 other big business men and the bill amounted to something like $200-

Dr Mackay:

– That is not $50 a head as you said.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– That is right, $50 a head, it is nothing for these people. Yet they expect the poor devil on $50 or $60 a week to exercise some restraint. No wonder the 3 million people who arc getting less than the average weekly wage are feed up with this Government. No wonder we have reached the stage where people arc beginning to question the Government’s sincerity when in one breath it asks the man on $50 or $60 a week to excerise restraint and then gives other people $29,000 a year. It is an absolute disgrace and I hope that the Prime Minister enjoys the same kind of Christmas as will those people on $50 a week and the pensioners.

Mr SNEDDEN:
Treasurer · Bruce · LP

– The attitude of the Opposition to this particular Bill is quite extraordinary. This Bill was introduced to give increases of salary to those statutory officers who are equated with the Second Division of the Commonwealth Public Service. A month or so ago the Commonwealth Public Service Arbitrator considered the matter and granted a 15 per cent wage increase to Second Division officers, all of whom are members of unions. At the time that increase was granted the spokesman for the Opposition on industrial matters the honourable member for Hindmarsh (Mr Clyde Cameron) who has just finished his contribution, welcomed that decision by the Arbitrator. That decision was then applied by the Government by way of regulation, which is the normal way in which it is done, because the Government accepted the Arbitrator’s decision on the matter. As a consequence the increased wage flowed to Second Division officers. The Government decided that it was incumbent upon it, out of justice to these statutory officers who are equated with Second Division officers, to give them the same increases. The Bill passed this House. lt went to the Senate, and in the Senate there was a discrimination against members of the wage earning sector of the community who are equated with the Second Division and who historically have received the same increase as was awarded by the Arbitrator to the Second Division. Tonight, by . an extraordinary course of events, the Opposition in the Senate decided to reject something which it has consistently supported in the past. It is open to any observer to conclude why that was done. There could be only 2 alternatives. One alternative is that Opposition members acted out of pique because they tried to play politics on a matter of parliamentary salaries which has historically been approached in a bipartisan attitude. In playing politics they found that the Government was not prepared to subordinate this matter to party politics. It had to be above that. And that has been the Government’s action in relation to this matter. It could only be one of two choices. The Government has been saying that the present problems of economic management in the country today are inflationary pressures which arise out of wage-push pressures mainly - not wholly I have never said wholly, but I have said mainly. That is the principal cause of it.

The Opposition, up to this day, in deference to its relationship with the unions which have been relentlessly pushing wage claims, has been unwilling to acknowledge the fact that the inflationary pressures’ flow from these ruthlessly, relentlessly pushed wage claims. Tonight we have heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam), supported by the Opposition’s spokesman on industrial matters, the honourable member for Hindmarsh acknowledged for the first time the reality of the Government’s constantly asserted claim that the economic management problem today of inflationary pressures is the wage-push pressure. The Opposition has adopted the truth of that assertion. 1 welcome that. If the Opposition wishes to choose restraint I congratulate it for doing so and 1 can assure honourable members of the Opposition that if it comes to a competition in restraint the Government will be more successful and will have more to offer than they have.

The honourable member for Hindmarsh, in a characteristic distortion of arguments speaks of the poor devils, as he described them, on S50 to $60 a week. There can be no doubt that a person receiving an income of’ $50 or $60 a week is in a much less advantageous position than a person who is, for instance, a member of Parliament.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Or on $29,000 like you.

Mr SNEDDEN:

– Or on $29,000 like myself. One does not need to be a Rhodes scholar to know the difference between $50 or $60 a week and $9,500 and $29,000 a year. What the Government needs is to have compassion for the man on the small income and do what it can as a government to adopt policies which will benefit him. The Government is adopting policies to benefit him, because the person who is the most defenceless against inflation is the very poor devil of whom the honourable member talks. What can he do to defend himself when inflation is forced by relentlessly pursued wage claims by those who possess power? Those who possess power are the ones who are able to protect themselves against inflation. The people who cannot do so are the poor devils on $50 to $60 a week, more especially if their $50 or $60 a week comes from a fixed income. So the Government will pursue its policy of economic management directed towards arresting the inflationary pressures. The Government will continue to assert as strongly as it can, and give what leadership it can, in exercising restraint in this field. For by so doing it will be serving the interests of the people of Australia.

Mr CLYDE CAMERON (Hindmarsh)Mr Chairman, I have been misrepresented. I want to make a personal explanation. The Treasurer (Mr Snedden) has stated that I applauded the Government’s decision to bring in regulations in line with the Public Service Arbitrator’s decision in resp ect of the Second Division officers. Lei me tell . the Treasurer, who has already served one term at least as Minister for Labour and National Service, that no law requires the Government to bring in a regulation !o give effect to a determination of the Public Service Arbitrator. He ought to read his books. At no time - never since this Parliament has been assembled - has it been necessary for a government to bring in a regulation to give effect to the Public Service Arbitrator’s determination. A determination is issued by the Arbitrator in the form of a determination, and it becomes operative in that form. I repeat, no regulation is needed.

Mr DALY:
Grayndler

– We have just listened to a remarkable speech from the Treasurer (Mr Snedden), the man who lectures on wage restraint and arbitration. J have here a report on the Parliamentary Salaries and Allowances Act. lt shows that the Treasurer receives $29,100 per annum. It was recommended to be increased, in the report of Mr Justice Kerr, to $34,650, $5,550 extra. The Leader of the Opposition thought that the man who preaches wage restraint would have given up that $5,550 and struggled along on his $29,100. We thought he might have had a little compassion. But, no. He is one of the men who said: ‘I want my extra $5,550. I cannot live on my $29,100.’ Next year he will be going into the national wage case to argue against the workers receiving any increase. What hypocrisy at the highest level. What contemptible conduct by the Treasurer of this country.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Lucock:

– Order! The honourable member for Grayndler knows, as I pointed out to the honourable member for Hindmarsh, that under the Standing Orders he should not make any reflection on any member of the House in regard to his motives. I suggest to the honourable member for Grayndler that he should withdraw the remark.

Mr DALY:

– I withdraw the remark. The Treasurer speaks of wage restraint and of arbitration. Let us look at this Government’s approach to arbitration and at the conduct of the Treasurer on the matter he raised a few moments ago in relation to the Opposition. Mr Justice Kerr brought down a report. This arbitration was emasculated by a slight majority of a docile Cabinet, of which the Treasurer is one. Then, after not accepting the report of the Treasurer, without bringing anything to the notice of the Opposition whilst it was deliberating, not knowing any of the details, the Treasurer almost hammered down the door of the room of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) and said: Take it or leave it.’ He said: Tn 5 minutes time the Prime Minister is to introduce the Bill. Take it or leave it, or he will not introduce it.’

The CHAIRMAN (Mr Lucock:

– Order! The honourable member for Grayndler is developing this into a full scale debate on a subject that was presented to the House and on which the House has not proceeded. I suggest that the honourable member for Grayndler should not make a full scale speech on this matter at this stage of the proceedings.

Mr DALY:

– I respect your ruling, Mr Chairman, but I point out to the Treasurer that he accused this Party of playing politics with Parliamentary salaries. Surely I am entitled to reply to that and say to this House today-

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order!

Mr DALY:

– I will just make passing reference to it. The Treasurer and the Deputy Prime Minister of this country threatened 3 members of the Opposition and said: ‘Take it or leave it’ in relation to an arbitration report that they had emasculated and sought to ram down our necks. But look at them struggling along on their $29,000 and $30,000. They are the wage restraint party. They say that the worker on his $50 is disturbing the economy. But these great men, these mcn of high principle - the Treasurer who lectures us will lead the Government into the courts to argue against the national wage case for workers - these are the men who refuse to give up a few thousand dollars and live on their $30,000 and yet they clamour for people in this country to accept wage restraint. The very day that they refused people in this country wage increases, in another place they introduced a measure to give $6,000 and $7,000 per annum increase in salaries to people who are struggling along on $22,000 and $23,000. This is the situation we face today and this is the Government that seeks to lead this country. 1 have never seen in all my years in this Parliament such a docile and incompetent Prime Minister, a hand picked Ministry, yes men to the core, prepared to sacrifice completely all the interests of the people of this country.

The CHAIRMAN:

- (Mr Lucock)- Order! I again remind the honourable member for Grayndler that the subject matter before the Committee is the Salaries (Statutory Officers) Adjustment Bill 1971, and the Committee at the moment is cosidering the Senate’s amendments. 1 point out to the Committee that there has been sufficient discussion on the matters that ure outside the amendments before the Committee.

Mr DALY:

Mr Chairman, I get back to the $6,000 and the $7,000. I think the people will be interested to know that if they re-elect the Government - I understand they may have an opportunity early in the new year - whose members advocated $6,000 and $7,000 increases for people in another place, the Prime Minister will want $51,000 per annum as a salary and will expect workers to take $5 or $6 a month or a year, as the case may be. They will think we will want a Treasurer who cannot live on $29,000 per annum and run the country.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! The honourable member for Grayndler knows that this has no relevance to the subject matter we are discussing.

Mr DALY:

Mr Chairman, your decision is remarkable in view of the fact that the Prime Minister, the Treasurer and the Leader of the Opposition all discussed this, and if you persist in your attitude I will have to move dissent from your ruling.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! 1 pointed out to the honourable member for Graydler that I considered there had been sufficient discussion on these matters. I would suggest that there has been sufficient discussion on these matters from both sides. I do not want this discussion to proceed to a full scale discussion in regard to. the Parliamentary Salaries Bill.

Mr DALY:

Mr Chairman, I know it is embarrassing to you, but we on this side of the Parliament have had charges made against us, and 1 personally do not intend to desist from pursuing this line. If you rule against me and refuse to let me reply to the Treasurer I will move dissent from your ruling.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! The honourable member for Grayndler will resume his seat. The honourable member has mentioned this subject matter on more that one occasion. He mentioned it at the beginning of his speech. I suggest at this moment, as 1 have already suggested to the honourable member, that the subject matter has been covered sufficiently. If he persists in this line I will have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr DALY:

Mr Chairman, with due deference, I intend to persist with what I have to say. I do not intend to be told how I can reply to a Government that is hypocritical in its approach to all these matters, preaches wage restraint on the one hand and then extends wages increases to its favoured friends and sets a tragic example by refusing to restrain in any way their own wage increases. It takes every piece of economic blood from the average worker

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! The honourable member for Grayndler will resume his seat.

Motion (by Mr Uren) proposed:

That the honourable member for Grayndler be further heard.

Dr Patterson:

– I second the motion.

Question put. The Committee divided. Ayes . . . . . . 32

AYES: 0

NOES: 47

Majority . . . . 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Mr UREN:
Reid

- Mr Chairman -

Motion (by Mr Swartz) agreed to:

That the question be now put.

Original question resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution reported: report adopted.

page 4511

ADJOURNMENT

Validictory - National Science - Aboriginals

Mr McMAHON:
Prime Minister · Lowe · LP

1.35 a.m.) - I move:

Mr Speaker, few will deny that this last year has been both turbulent and exciting. Few will deny that we have lived in times which have been changing constantly and which have been a challenge to the intelligence and ability of all members of the House. Few will deny that the members of this House have, in their own ways and according to their own fashions, made their contribution to parliamentary democracy. I think they all have to be credited with doing their best in the interests of this country and of the people of this country. We are indebted not only to the members of the House but also to the people inside and outside it who play an active part in the operations of the House for their patience, hard work and continued courtesy. First of all, I believe that our thanks should go to you, Mr Speaker, for the manner in which you have managed the affairs of the House. I believe it is true to say that you are respected, that you arc unfailingly courteous in your attitude to all members and that whenever we feel that it is necessary or desirable to come to you to seek your advice you are only too willing to give it. We always find that the advice you give us turns out to be right. Above all, I believe that every one of us can credit you with living up to the highest traditions of your office with both integrity and with dignity. Before I move oh to mention members of the House, may I mention how fortunate we are that Mr Norm Parkes will succeed the present Clerk of the House. Mr Parkes has had a lifetime of experience in the House and we hope that he will be a very worthy successor to the present Clerk and will serve just as long as he has and in just as pleasant <t capacity.

I now refer to the Chairman of Committees, a man well known and favourably regarded by all of us. He is always couteous, affable and, again, a person who is only too willing to give advice of the very best kind. If I can make one personal comment - I do not like making too many on an occasion such as this - on many of the occasions when I have felt that help was desirable, I found that instead of having to go to him, he was only too happy to come to me and I have been able to publish what he felt was not only in my interest but in the best interests of the Parliament as well. I say a word of appreciation loo for the assistance rendered by the Clerks Assistant and the officers of the House. I also want to refer to the large quantity of work that has been done. over the course of the last year. About 134 Bills have been passed by the House. Therefore, I think that a great degree of credit must be given for the very arduous work that has been done by the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) and the Deputy Leader of the House (Mr Chipp), and for the work that has been done by their opposite numbers on the other side of the House. I think that we can reflect with some degree of satisfaction on the improved working of the legislative programme. It will be remembered that not so long ago we had a great deal of difficulty because of the pileup of Bills at the end of the session. I then advised the House that the Government had appointed a legislative programming committee of the Cabinet, headed by my colleague the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr N. H. Bowen). It had the task not only of sensible programming but also of preventing a banking up of work at the end of the session, with the consequent rush and all of the difficulties that this creates. I think, therefore, that we should congratulate the Minister for Foreign Affairs on the work that he has done and for the success that has been achieved, particularly in regard to the objectives of the Government.

In my first year as the Prime Minister I should like to thank especially my ministerial and parliamentary colleagues for their support and co-operation. Also I should like to record my appreciation for the way in which the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam), the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) and their parliamentary colleagues have frequently discharged their obligations and helped to maintain an efficient and dignified working of the institution of Parliament.’ I pay a tribute also to the Whips who are here to keep us in order and who also have made their contribution towards the efficient functioning of Parliament.

I now turn to those who are behind the scenes and to whom we are indebted. I refer to the Hansard writers, members of research services of the Parliamentary Library, the telephonists and the general office staffs as well as the attendants and amenities staff who put in such long hours when the House is sitting. 1 should also like to make special mention of members of the Press who in their own fashion contribute to the democratic processes of Parliament. We may not always agree with what they say or how they interpret our remarks, but I respect their right to do so. Finally, Sir, I wish you and all other members of the House, the staffs and those people who have given assistance in the running of the House, a very very happy Christmas and a succesful year. Above all, Sir, I say that honourable members on this side of the House who make up the Government will do all that we can to make certain that the Government is successful whenever an election might be held.

Mr WHITLAM:
Leader of the Opposition · Werriwa

– I join with the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) in his seasonal good wishes. I agree with every thing he said, except the last sentence. I would like to comment first on the amount of business with which we have dealt this session. I have taken a quick look at the figures and I do not think that there has been a sessional period in which the Hansard record has had so many pages. The number of pages for this session is nearer 5,000 than 4,000. 1 just went out of the chamber to look at the Hansard records on my shelves and found that the number of pages (his session is about 1,000 more than the number for previous sessions. Sir. -nay I acknowledge your services to the House. You have to bc here when we mee! and you have to he here when we rise.

Mr Hayden:

– Careful now; what you say may be taken down and used against you.

Mr WHITLAM:

– Let me say, for greater precaution, that this is without prejudice. I must concede that my colleagues and I try your patience at times, but I hope that you will not mind if I say that I believe your patience is tried on a bipartisan basis, lt is unfortunate that in your position the more you are tried on your right the more you have to take it out on your left.

In this Parliament the Speaker is not immune from opposition in his electorate. You. Sir, have to tread a very difficult path. You have to try to keep your electorate and at the same time to preside over the House. I am not ready to assert that any member of the House would be willing to take your job who could do it better. There are many personal reasons why, whilst we disagree politically with vigour, we do respect each other as men. Your deputy has great experience. He has had to preside over, I think, probably an exceptionally great number of debates. There have been some occasions, as you know, when we have preferred his rulings even to yours.

May 1 specify also what the House owes - I certainly feel that I owe a great deal - to the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) and to my Deputy. Each has to do all he can to see that the business of the House - the legitimate business raised on each side - is given a satisfactory debate and resolution. It is impossible to reconcile all the pressures in this way. I am certain that there are no 2 men in this place who could so well resolve those differences, and this applies to both. I have never had a closer association in any activity in my life than I have had with my Deputy and I know that he appreciates the way that the Leader of the House works with him. As I have said before, the Leader of the House has an extraordinary capacity to take the heat out of any situation.

Mr Cope:

– He will not answer any questions though.

Mr WHITLAM:

– Even on that point, we all, I suppose, mock his prolixity. There is, in fact, no Minister who does give more information than the Leader of the House in his capacity as Minister for National Development. I have never known him to give an inaccurate reply and there is always as least some information in his replies. At any rate, this is not the occasion to specify any other persons.

However, from my side we extend in a personal sense to all those who sit on the other side the season’s greetings. Members of Parliament, whatever else may be said about them, do, ex officio, see less of their families than anybody else and it is impossible really to carry on in this occupation unless one has a fairly tolerant wife. Their patience is sorely tried by our occupation. I think I know most of the wives of members of the Government parties and without exception they are of great assistance to their husbands. However we may find our opponents from time to time politically obnoxious, their wives are very gracious, nice women and that applies to the Prime Minister, to his Ministry and to those who sit behind him.

A great number of people in this place work with us. I do not know the population of this building. It is many hundreds - several times as many as there are who sit in the 2 chambers. We must be extraordinarily difficult people to work with due to the times and the tempo at which we work and we really are very well served by the men and women who work in this building and who work beside the members of Parliament. To them, in particular, Christmas must be a very welcome respite. We wish them too, as well as our opponents, happiness at this time with their families and their relatives.

Mr ANTHONY:
Minister for Trade and Industry · Richmond · CP

– I would like to join with the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) in making a few seasonal remarks. It has not been a dull year. There has been sufficient activity in the Parliament to allow our feature writers to fill more than a few columns with news. I am not sure which side of the House has provided the more arresting news, but this side has certainly provided quite a bit. One of the most unusual features of the year - it was an experience I had never had before nor had any present member of this Parliament - was the counting out of the Parliament. Nobody would think it was funny. In fact most of us feel a little ashamed that it happened. I hope we never see it again, but it was an unusual feature of the year.

I would like to say to you, Mr Speaker, how much I. appreciate the way in which you have carried out your most onerous job. You have performed it in a very effective way and with a great deal of dignity. I pay a similar tribute to the people who support you, particularly my colleague the Chairman of Committees (Mr Lucock). I am very proud of the way he fills that office. I think he does an excellent job and has great command when he is in the chair. He has had to take control of this House on many occasions when you have been away, Sir, either overseas or through ill health. On those occasions he has certainly done an excellent job.

Many people provide the services in the Parliament. I would not like to run through them all because I might fail to mention one or two of them. I have in mind all the people who work behind the Clerks of the House; the staff of Hansard and the Library staff; the attendants and the door staff. I have not had an opportunity before to mention Gordon Pike. He is an exceptional person. I have no doubt that he has been mentioned on previous occasions but I wish to mention him now because I remember very clearly how important he was when I was a private member, in getting me to Canberra and away again. He is a man who never complains, no matter what is asked of him.

I wish to mention another person. I do not know whether it is appropriate on this occasion, but he was associated with this Parliament for a very long time in connection with the Cabinet Secretariat. I refer to the late Les McSpeerin who died during the week. Les McSpeerin was in the Office of the Cabinet for a period of 21 years. He retired a fortnight ago and died a week after retiring. He was a most courteous and attentive man. Anybody who was associated with him will feel very sad at his passing and because he was robbed of the opportunity of a happy retirement.

I would also like to thank the Leader of the Opposition for mentioning the wives of members of Parliament. It is terribly important that they are never forgotten because they do have a burden to carry as wives of members. I wish all members of this Parliament a happy Christmas. I hope that they get some relief from the pressures under which they live. The outside world does not really appreciate the amount of time taken by a member of Parliament in serving his electorate, his constituents, his party and the Parliament. I hope that all get a chance to relax. I wish you all well for 1972.

Mr SWARTZ:
Minister for National Development · Darling Downs · LP

– As the hour is late I will be very brief, as usual. I congratulate Mr Norm Parkes, who will be taking over as Clerk of the House. Once again this Parliament is to receive the benefit of a lifetime of training in the Parliament itself. Also I would like to say a personal ‘thank you’ to the Parliamentary Liaison Officer, Mr George Brownbill, who is just completing a most efficient term of office, and to welcome his successor, Mr Giff Jones, who I am sure will continue those harmonious relationships that make for the smooth running and functioning of the House. I should like also to thank you, Mr Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees and all those who assist you in those various capacities. I should like to thank the Whips and the Hansard staff - in fact all the parliamentary staff whether they be in this chamber or in the dining room or on the transport side: all those who during the year help to make life bearable and who assist in the work that goes on here.

I should like also to thank the Deputy Leader of the House (Mr Chipp) who has been assisting with the work in this field. But I must say a special ‘thank you’, first of all, to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam) for his co-operation, but perhaps more especially to my colleague the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) who has worked so closely with me and in such a very harmonious way throughout what I think was a fairly difficult time. I feel that we should remember also the members of the Press who look down on us most of the time but who, on occasions such as this, we remember most kindly. I believe that we can look back on a session productive of legislation and keen debate, and it is my hope that the festive season will bring happiness and contentment to all members and to their families.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

– As the Leader of the House (Mr Swartz) has already pointed out, the hour is late, but I think I would be lacking in common courtesy if I did not take the opportunity to express one or two views on this very important occasion. First of all, I should like to join with those who earlier this evening expressed good wishes to the Clerk of the House. I did not join in the discussion at that time for obvious reasons. There were a number of speakers, and I knew that there would be an opportunity to speak later before the House adjourned. Although I did not speak at that time, I know that Mr Turner would realise that my tribute is just as sincere. He has assisted me, just as he has assisted every other member of this House whenever the occasion has arisen. In more recent years, since it has been my responsibility to approach him on a great number of occasions, I have always found him to be a man who was helpful, considerate and courteous. He certainly was of great assistance to me personally. So I wish both Mr and Mrs Turner a very happy, pleasant, long and enjoyable retirement together. I also join in congratulating Mr Parkes on his appointment to this very high and distinguished office. I know that he will give the same kind of service as we have grown accustomed to receive from Alan Turner.

Next I should like to refer to you Mr Speaker. I have to work very closely with you in some ways. I have appreciated your courtesy and assistance, and I am sure that although honourable members in this House, when matters are under discussion and controversies arise from time to time may not always agree with your decisions, I know that you act impartially, fairly and in the way in which you believe your high office should be discharged.

I should also like to join the Leader of the House in paying a very well deserved tribute to the members of the Hansard staff, to the attendants and indeed to all those people who assist in the running of this Parliament. I believe that we are very fortunate in the House of Representatives and, I suppose too, in the Senate - of course, one can speak sincerely about the House of Representatives - for the high standard of service that all honourable members have received and acknowledged from the staff that very effectively helps in the running of this Parliament. I join with those who have paid a tribute to the Hansard reporters, to the attendants, to Mr Pike and indeed to may people who assist in making our duties less difficult and the standard of the Parliament much higher than it would otherwise be.

I suppose at a time like this there are a great many people to whom one could pay tribute. At this stage I wish to express my gratitude not only to those who have assisted in this way but particularly to the staff of the Leader of the House. I am referring now to Mr George Brownbill who will be retiring from his position. I thank him for his co-operation and assistance over a very long period. I would like also to welcome his successor. I know that we will be able to work together in the same way that I have been able to work with Mr Brownbill. So I look forward to a happy association with him. It is not always an easy task for the Leader of the House or for his opposite number on this side of the House. Of course, this has been demonstrated on a number of occasions. I suppose this is because there are some members of the House of Representatives - both on the Government side and on the Opposition side - who are not always aware of the arrangements that must be made if the business of the House is to be dealt with effectively and expeditiously. In this respect I have endeavoured to work with the Leader of the House as he has endeavoured to work with me to achieve this objective. I believe that it has been done during this session reasonably well. Therefore I join wilh the Leader of the Opposition and those who have spoken tonight to express my own personal good wishes to all those people who have contributed in this way, and to wish all members of the House of Representatives the compliments of the season.

Mr UREN:
Reid

- Mr Speaker, I will make my comments brief. I wished to speak through you to the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon). Since he is not here I do so through the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Anthony) and I hope that he will give my remarks some consideration. In this gentle season when men remember they are brothers I want to make a request that we give special consideration to that young man, Geoffrey Mullen who is at present in Emu Plains. Geoff Mullen is a young man who has defied the National Service Act. He is due to be released from prison in February. I am asking the Government to give special consideration to releasing him by Christmans. I do this because he is a man of great moral courage. He has made his stand and I think he is prepared to take his medicine. He would not want me to make any special request on his behalf alone, but I think that he is an only son and that we should give some consideration to bis mother.

Geoffrey Mullen is a young man who defied the National Service Act. He has been in many gaols in the State of New South Wales. He has been in Long Bay Gaol. He was transferred from Long Bay Gaol to Berrima. I visited him in Berrima last Easter Saturday. He was transferred from there to Newnes at a later stage. From there he went to Silverwater. He was then transferred from Silverwater to Cooma. Recently, upon representations being made by myself and other honourable members he was transferred to Emu

Plains. I might say in fairness to the New South Wales authorities that it is a far better prison for him to be in than Cooma. This is a special problem.

The Government is bringing home from Vietnam its combat troops by Christmas. I wish it was bringing all its troops home. I will not make any criticism of past policy. This is not the time to critisice the Government. I am putting a special case to the Government and I hope that it will give it special consideration. Election policies are being talked about. The Government should treat this case sympathetically. It has been said that the Government may introduce its election policy by next March. If special consideration is given to Mullen, J will be grateful. At least I will see evidence of some human blood running through the veins of politicians.

Anyone, who knows Mullen recognises that he is a boy with great moral courage. I admire him personally. We all know that mothers fee] for their sons and I want to see the boy home. I hope that not only will the Government give special consideration to Mullen but also that it will give special consideration to the others - there are not a great many because it is not the Government’s policy to arrest many of these young people - who are in gaol. I hope that the Government will give special consideration to them too. But I ask particularly in respect of Mullen. I have kept a close eye on him. I have kept in touch with him and with his mother. I will not detain the House. I thank the Prime Minister for coming into the House.

Mr TURNER:
Bradfield

Many members have said many things for many hours. I hope that I will not be begrudged 10 minutes to raise a serious matter. It is not a matter of interest, probably, to the Press or to many members in this House. But it is a human tragedy and I wish to have it recorded in the pages of Hansard, even if it stains the pages of our history. I said that it was a human tragedy. Let me read this article as an indication of what it is about. This is not the exact case but it is an analogous one. In the ‘Sydney Morning Herald’ of 18th September 1971 there appeared this article:

An Aboriginal tribe on a Northern Territory mission station was slowly being ‘massacred’ by liquor, a Professor of anthropology claimed yesterday.

Professor Ronald Berndt, of the University of Western Australia, said in the three years since he last visited the mission the Aborigines had become apathetic and disillusioned.

During these three years - in late 1969 - a liquor store was set up on a mining lease at the edge of the reserve, he said.

Unles action was taken immediately, the 500 or so Aborigines on the mission would be destroyed.

Professor Berndt was talking about the Oenpelli Mission, about 150 miles east of Darwin.

Before the coming of the store, the Aborigines - primarily from the Gunwinggu tribe - were well on their way to adapting themselves to the ‘tremendous changes’ going on around them; at the same time retaining something of their cultural heritage, he said.

A good school was available at Oenpelli - and so was employment.

Mining in the area, with potential for greater Aboriginal participation, heralded a new economy.

But, under present conditions, the bright prospects would not be realised.

Professor Berndt claimed almost half of Aboriginal wages, pensions, endowment and trainee payments passed into the hands of the store’s proprietor.

Family life was disrupted, children neglected, ther was an emotional vacuum and many of the adults were well on their way to becoming alcoholics.

The continuation of the present state of affairs spells genocide - just as surely as if the people were being massacred,’ he said.

The only difference is that, in this case, it will be slower - but it will have the same result.’

The Aborigines did not know how to cope with the problem.

They had no tradition of drinking; it was not part of their culture.

Most of the people were powerless to react against it themselves because they did not see the implications.

In his statement, Professor Berndt spoke of Aboriginal men and women ‘dazed and staggering, lying inert, yelling, quarrelling and fighting.’

The scene at the East Alligator Crossing almost defied description - with about half the adult male population of the mission in various stages of drunkenness.

The secretary for Aborigines of the Church Missionary Society, the Rev. Stanley Giltrap, said in Sydney that the liquor Licence was granted by the Northern Territory licensing authority over the objections of both the mission and the Aborigines themselves. 1 said that this was not the case that I wished to raise, but it is precisely analogous. lt refers to an area on one side of Arnhem Land. The case about which I am concerned is on the other side of Arnhem Land. If that is what happened in the area just described, this is what will happen in the other case to which I refer specifically.

I raised this matter in the House. It is recorded in Hansard of 6th and 7th May 1971 at page 2839. The Minister for the Interior (Mr Hunt), in reply to what I had to say, said:

Is it realistic that the Nhulunbuy community should not have access to the same social amenities as other Northern Territory towns of the same size? There is a need for public accommodation for business and other visitors to the Gove project. The Aboriginals’ preference for a club licence would nol be appropirate as it would undoubtedly limit the availability of the facilities to club members. Residents and visitors to the town would be excluded unless they joined the club. Unless a discriminatory club rule prevent it, Aboriginals would be able to join the club and have access to liquor. Moreover, restricted availability of liquor through the club would lead to black marketing, especially in respect to Aboriginal drinkers not wishing to join the club.

Those are very cool words when one considers that the issue of this licence is the prelude to precisely what 1 have read about having already happened in the last couple of years on the other side of Arnhem Land. I shall ask, before I sit down, that the transcript of the case before the licensing magistrate be laid on the table. I would anticipate no objection to that as the transscript was given to me by the Minister himself. This will allow members of this House or of the public to refer to it themselves.

In the brief amount of time I have at my disposal I want to refer to one or two of the points raised in the transcript. First of all, an officer of the Welfare Department of the NT Administration is responsible to decide whether liquor shall or shall not come onto an Aboriginal reserve. That is his duty. 1 would like to quote part of the transcript relating to the officer who has this responsibility. His name is Cyril Cecil Allom, a Regional Welfare Officer with the NT Administration. This witness was the person who, following the earlier application by Walkabout Holdings which was refused on the basis that the company did not have a permit to take liquor into Arnhem Land, issued such a permit. Crossexamined by Mr Elliott, counsel for the Aborigines, he was asked: Did you understand that this discretion -

That is, to issue a permit for the purpose of allowing liquor to be taken into Arnhem Land - was vested in you primarily as a protection for the Aboriginal people?

He answered: ‘Yes, Sir’. On the same page of the transcript the witness also admitted that on the earlier application he had stated that before issuing a permit he would consult all parties concerned. The witness was asked by Mr Elliott whether or not he should have consulted the Aborigines before issuing the permit, He replied:

I have not consulted them, sir. I would have considered it an impertinance to consult them because their views are being expressed before this Court.

In relation to his earlier statement that he would have consulted all parties before issuing a permit, the witness stated in relation to the Aborigines:

They are parties, sir, but as I say they are already represented.

When asked a question in relation to bis powers to issue a permit under section 140E of the Licensing Ordinance, specifically having regard to the interests of the Aborigines, the witness replied:

No, I think I have to have regard to the interests of other people as well.

I will not read any more of his evidence. This man was supposed to be looking after the interests of the Aborigines but he did not consult them because they were before the court. The court might have liked to hear from somebody who had expertise in this field and whose duty it was to look after them what was his attitude, being presumably also the attitude of the Government. But I do not have time to go into this matter in detail.

Let me pass on the attitude of Walkabout to the club licence. Evidence was given by Mr Graeme James Robertson, Chairman of Walkabout Hotel. He was asked whether he had considered the disadvantages of a club licence as opposed to hotel licence. His answer was:

We would have to break the law; that was the only disadvantage.

That indicates that the witness supposed a club licence could not be enforced. The witness said:

We are not looking for a way over it.

He was referring to the disadvantages of a club licence. They were interested only in an hotel licence. So the question of a club licence was never before the court. Walkabout was not interested in it and it never came before the court as to whether a club licence might be the right answer.

Evidence as to the provision of amenities such as a canteen and provision for the families there in a community centre was given by the Site Administration Officer at Nabalco. This was highly satisfactory. I cannot go into all this but there was talk about a need to accommodate visitors. Yet when one reads on through the evidence one finds it admitted that the mining company does not encourage visitors. Of course it does not. It wants to get on with mining. Nevertheless there was talk before the magistrate about the accommodation of visitors. Even a trade union organiser said that the union wanted a hotel so that the workers in the mine could have their families there. It came out in evidence that this would cost about $20 a night exclusive, of course, of the costs of flying the families to this place and back home again.

I have not time to go into all these matters and I will lay on the table the transcript of evidence. It disclosed a disgraceful situation where the welfare officer gave no evidence to assist the court, where the applicant had no concern whatsoever for the Aborigines - he merely wanted a hotel licence to do what a storekeeper did on the other side of Arnhem Land - where there was talk about the accommodation of visitors whereas the mine discourages visitors and where every point of view was taken into account except the interests of the Aborigines. This is a human tragedy and T want it recorded in Hansard.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Order! The honourable member’s time has expired.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

– 1 heartily congratulate the honourable member for Bradfield (Mr Turner) on what he has said. Honourable members know that I am a member of the Joint Committee on Public Works which has visited the Northern Territory on at least 5 or 6 occasions this year under the chairmanship of the honourable member for Wakefield (Mr Kelly). I can assure this Parliament that what the honourable member for Bradfield said about the liquor store near Oenpelli is correct. I had the privilage of talking to the manager of the liquor store near Oenpelli not very long ago and what he told me without hesitation confirms that the facts quoted by the honourable member for Bradfield from the newspaper articles are true. Our country would be richer if there were more speeches of the type made by the honourable member for Bradfield regarding the peoples of the Northern Territory and particularly the Aborigines It is true that the Aborigines trudge for days after they get their social service cheques. I am not trying to denigrate the administration of Aboriginal affairs. This is a problem with which all of us should be concerned. Without mentioning socialism or nationalism, if ever there was an industry that needed Government control to remove the profit motive it is the liquor industry in the Northern Territory, so that no more would a person selling intoxicating liquor be able to enrich himself through the intoxication of Aborigines. It would be to the credit of this Government if it were to do something in that regard. The Public Works Committee will be visiting the Oenpelli Mission next week in its investigation of the beef roads project.

What the honourable member for Bradfield has said is true and I hope the Parliament and the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts (Mr Howson) will read what he said and do something about the intoxication of Aborigines and the profit motive behind the sale of liquor to Aborigines. The Marys, wives or gins and their children remain outside the liquor store while the men in ignorance exhaust the social service payments that the Government makes to them. I will not detain the Parliament any longer and I conclude by again congratulating the honourable member for Bradfield for bringing this matter forward.

Mr TURNER:

– I seek leave to lay on the table the transcript of evidence to which I referred earlier.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted.

Mr CALDER:
Northern Territory

– I rise to speak about Aborigines also, but those to whom I refer are hundreds of miles from Cahill’s Crossing and Nhulunbuy which have been mentioned. For the information of honourable members I ask for leave to incorporate in Hansard an article from the Northern Territory ‘News’ of 3rd December 1971, headed ‘Claims Gurindjis “Political Football”.

Mr SPEAKER:

-Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted. (The document read as follows) -

page 4519

CLAIMS GURINDJIS POLITICAL FOOTBALL

Supporter says unions broke aid promises

Many southern trade unions and other organisations which claimed to be helping Gurindji Aboriginals in their land rights case were really only using them as a ‘political football’, Mr Alan Thorpe alleged yeaterday.

Mr Thorpe has been living with the Gurindjis at Wattie Creek and Wave Hill since he went there in early March under sponsorship of 10 national unions.

In Darwin to buy stores yesterday, Mr Thorpe said he was ‘quite disillusioned’ about the unions which has sponsored him, and about ‘several other organisations’ which claimed to be helping the Gurindjis.

Most of them are simply using the situation for political gain, without any real knowledge of the situation, or any real regard for the real wishes of the Gurindjis,’ he said.

I have no political affiliations at all.

I wanted to come to the Territory to help Aboriginals, and the National Union of Australian University Students offered to sponsor a two weeks visit to Wattie Creek through its Aboriginal Scholarship Scheme (Abschol)

This would not have Deen long enough to even get to know the people.

Then the Australian Meat Industry Employee’s Union, through organiser Mr Jack OToole, arranged for a 30 weeks stay to be sponsored by a group of 10 unions. wages

Each union donated $150 to help meet my agreed wages of $50 a week.

When I got to Darwin the North Australian Workers’ Union appointed me an honorary organiser to ensure award conditions for Aboriginal station hands in the Victoria River District.

There have been a lot of problems, and 1 have been attempting to solve them in what seems the best way for the Gurindjis and other Aboriginals in the area.

But it seem I have not been sufficiently militant enough for the unions.

For this or some other reason I don’t know, they have not paid me since the end of April, despite requests for payment, or official notification that I will not be paid.

Despite this I have continued to use my abilities as a mechanic, bricklayer and agriculturist to help the Gurindjis as much as I can.

Quite a lot is being accomplished, without much fuss, along the lines which the Gurindjis themselves want.

page 4519

NOT SUITABLE

At one stage Mr OToole said I should resign from the honorary job with the NAWU because he did not think I was a suitable man to be a union organiser.

I discussed the request with the Gurindjis themselves, and at their request decided to retain the post so I would have authority to speak on union matters with employers.

The NAWU has not made any move to withdraw its support.

One of the problems we have is the number of so-called experts on the Gurindji question.

Most of them are 10-day wonders - people who have made brief visits to Wattie Creek and think they know all the answers - or just distant wonders - people who have never been in the NT.

They are agitating for what the Gurindjis want - or what they believe the Gudindjis should want.

They have no knowledge of what the Gudindjis themselves want

page 4520

DECISION

Recently the Gurindjis, at a long meeting, decided they should seek a lease over the SOO square miles they are claiming as tribal land around Wattie Creek.

This is on Wave Hill station, and Vestey’s, the controlling company, has said lt would not resist any Government move to excise the area and give it to the Gurindjis.

The Gurindjis decided they could gain control over the land within existing laws, by seeking the lease, while leaving their application for the land to be granted to them for future consideration.

But Abschol and the other organisations decided the lease application should not bc made.

They say it would admit Government ownership of the land claimed by the Aboriginals.

They believe the lease application would cut across the principle of Aboriginal land rights.

The Gurindjis themselves do not admit this’ Mr Thorpe said.

They regard the lease as a first step and one which would give them undisputed control of the land now, while the principle is still being argued.

Yet the southern organisations are attempting to dictate what the Gurindjis should do.

They are refusing to let the people think or speak for themselves.

Right now, the Gurindjis want to seek a lease for the land 1 believe the Government will quite soon agree to grant them a small sit-down area at Wattie Creek, but they still want a lease over the whole 500 square miles.

They want permission and help to establish a small cattle station operation on the land. This would not be to supply all the Gurindjis - just some of the older people.

The others could work on other stations, or form a series of contract mustering teams.

Contract mustering is hard work - but these people can do it, and do it well.

page 4520

NEED HELP

Al least initially they would need someone to help wilh the business organisation and paperwork. “This is what all the interested organisations should be doing.

Working directly to help the Gurindjis to achieve their real aims.

Instead they are following pre-conceived ideas, usually based on political grounds, and expecting the Gurindjis to conform.

Some of the Territory people who have spoken recently on the question have also shown a complete lack of understanding of the real problem.

These include Dr Goc Letts (Legislative Council Member for Victoria River) and” Mr Brian Manning (Secretary of the Darwin branch of the Waterside Workers’ Federation). “Their public argument recently about conditions and leadership at Wattie Creek is based on the situation as it was years ago - not on what is happening now,’ Mr Thorpe said.

With Mr Thorpe in Darwin yesterday was Aboriginal Mr Panto Panto, whose mother was a Wailbri and whose father is a Gurindji.

Mr Panto is living in one of the 20 Housing Commission-type houses built by the Welfare Branch at Wave Hill settlement about five miles from Wattie Creek.

page 4520

QUESTION

ONE PEOPLE

He said the Aboriginals at both centres were all one people’, with a mixture of Gurindji and Wailbri descent.

He and several other Aboriginals were coming to Darwin with Mr Thorpe on supply runs lo learn how lo order and collect the goods for themselves.

Mr SPEAKER:

-It is not often I have the chance to speak for half an hour on the debate for the adjournment of the House, but I shall not take this opportunity to do that. I would like to reply to some of the comments that were made earlier tonight. Firstly, I would like to thank the Prime Minister (Mr McMahon), the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Anthony), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Whitlam), the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr Barnard) and the Leader of the House (Mr. Swartz) for the kind remarks that they made about the Speaker of the House. I would also like to thank them for the tributes that they paid to the 2 Clerks and the table officers who work so loyally and so assiduously over long hours on behalf of members and the Parliament itself. I would be remiss if I did not thank the deputy speakers and the chairmen of committees for their excellent co-operation during the year. I am extremely thankful for their understanding during my absences.

It is not always easy to sit here and make a split second decision. No man can be always right, but I want to assure the

House that as I have done in the past so 1 shall do in the future - endeavour to be right and to be as impartial as any mortal soul can be. Thank you very much for the tributes to the attendants and other members of the staff, such as those in the refreshment rooms, and particularly the unnamed people who have not been referred to but who run into many categories both in the chamber and in the House. I assure honourable members that they work loyally and assiduously and that the comfort of and service to the members is their first consideration. I shall have great pleasure in conveying to them the thoughts of the members of the House and shall express your appreciation to them for their services during the year.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 2.29 a.m. (Friday), until a date and hour to be fixed by Mr Speaker and to be notified by him to each member by telegram or letter.

page 4522

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE

The following answers to questions upon notice were circulated:

Education: 15 to 18 Year Olds (Question No. 3649)

Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has advised that the. information requested is unlikely to be available until towards the end of 1972.

Education: Abolition of Fees (Question No. 3641)

Mr Whitlam:

askedthe Minister for Education and Science, upon notice:

What would be the cost to the Commonwealth of paying fees of the present number of students at (a) universities, (b) colleges of advanced education, (c) teachers’ colleges, and (d) technical colleges, whose fees are not already paid by Commonwealth and State Departments and instrumentalities.

Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. and (b) The estimated costs for the financial year 1971-72 for universities and colleges of advanced education are$1 3.1m and $3.4m respectively. These estimates take into account possible savings to the Commonwealth from a reduction in claims for income taxation deductions which would arise from the abolition of fees. Allowance has also been made for the value of reimbursements to students who as employees of the Commonwealth are eligible for a refund of fees paid.
  2. and (d) The information available concerning income and expenditure of teachers colleges and technical colleges is of insufficient detail to permit calculation of the required cost estimate.

Aluminium (Question No. 3771)

Dr Everingham:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

asked the Treasurer, upon notice:

What is the estimated revenue received by the Commonwealth from the establishment of the aluminium industry in Australia as (a) taxes on mining and processing Australian bauxite, limestone and coal, (b)net profits and interest paid to the Commonwealth as a result of the increased requirement for electricity in the industry, (c) taxes paid by migrants employed in the industry less their immigration fares and assimilation costs.

extra taxes paid by manufacturers due to their higher output and wage and profit margins, when using Australian produced aluminium in place of aluminium at prices charged to non-producing countries (3) excise on imports of soda ash and caustic soda and (f) other receipts.

Mr Snedden:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. , (c) and (d) No statistics are available that would enable reliable estimates to be made of the taxation revenue attributable to the establishment of the aluminium industry in Australia.
  2. The Commonwealth has made funds available to the States for purposes that include the expansion of electricity generating capacity. As the undertakings involved supply electricity to domestic users, to industry generally as well as to the aluminium industry, I am unable to state what proportion of interest received by the Commonwealth is a direct result of the increased requirement for electricity in the aluminium industry.
  3. Excise is not payable on soda ash and caustic soda. Import duties paid by the aluminium industry are not available separately from those paid by other users.
  4. Not known.

Superannuation: Transfer of Rights (Question No. 4396)

Mr Whitlam:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice:

  1. Did the former Prime Minister announce on 25th September 1969 (Hansard, page 1997) that on the basis of Sir Leslie Melville’s report of February 1968 his Government intended to legislate for transferability of superannuation rights for those employed by the Commonwealth who choose to move to public employment with the States.
  2. Which schemes has he declared to be eligible superannuation schemes for the transferability of Commonwealth superannuation since the amending Act came into operation on 25th May 1971.
  3. With which State superannuation schemes is he conducting negotiations.
Mr Snedden:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. Yes.
  2. Schemes that have been declared eligible superannuation schemes are the Superannuation Fund and the Provident Account established under the Superannuation Act 1922-1971 and the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Fund established under the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Act 1948-1971. No State schemes have so far been declared.
  3. There are no negotiations being conducted with State schemes at this time. Persons moving from the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund to most State Public Service superannuation funds may purchase with the refund of contributions received from the Commonwealth fund, the employees’ share of fully paid units of pension in the State fund, and the State accepts responsibility for the employer obligation in re -peel of such units. Where such employees do noi have the opportunity of having this type of preservation arrangement applied to them, they have available a deferred benefit under the Superannuation Act 1922-1971. Thus, in either event the employees’ benefits are preserved for them.

Employment: Numbers (Question No. 3874)

Mr Daly:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice:

How many (a) males, and (b) females between the ages of 18 and 21 are currently employed in Australia.

Mr Snedden:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has supplied the following information in reply to the honourable member’s question.

It is estimated that in mid-1971 the numbers of employed males and females aged 18, 19 or 20 were about 275,000 and 235,000 respectively.

Teaching of Asian Languages and Cultures (Question No. 4592) Mr Whitlam asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice:

What was the outcome of the meeting in October 1971 between the Directors-General of Education and the Secretary of his Department to discuss the report of the Advisory Committee on the Teaching of Asian Languages and Cultures, which his predecessor sent to the State Education Ministers in October 1970. (Hansard, 28th September 1971, page 1602).

Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

The meeting referred to by the honourable member is one held annually by the DirectorsGeneral of Education, part of which is attended by the Secretary of my Department. The proceedings of these meetings are not made public. However, I am able to say that a small sub-committee consisting of Comonwealth and State representatives has been set up to draft a programme on the teaching of Asian languages and cultures for joint Commonwealth-State consideration.

Army: Unit at Monegeetta, Victoria (Question No. 4637) Mr Kennedy asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice:

  1. What is the (a) establishment and (b) strength of each unit located at Monegeeta Victoria.
  2. How many civilian employees are engaged at Monegeetta and what are their classifications.
  3. When was the (a) military complex and (b) married persons accommodation first established at Monegeetta, and in what years have buildings, facilities and accommodation of all kinds been established since.
  4. How many married quarters are there st Monegeetta.
  5. Do plans exist for the upgrading of (a) working and (b) living accommodation at Monegeetta.
  6. If so, (a) what do the plans involve, (b) when were they drawn up and (c) when will they be implemented.
Mr Peacock:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. (a) The establishment at the Trials and

Proving Wing of Army Design Establishment, Monegeetta, consists of 2 ARA and 51 civilians. In addition there is at present a supernumerary establishment to carry out trials on a 1 ton truck. This consists of 25 ARA and 2 civilians, (b) The strength at Monegeetta consists of 2 ARA and 50 civilians plus 21 ARA and 2 civilians supernumerary, to establishment.

  1. Civilians employed at Monegeetta consist of:
  1. (a) The military complex was established in 1943.

    1. Married quarters were provided in 1951. A short history of construction is:
  2. 1943: Test slopes were constructed.
  3. 1943-1951: Some 29 buildings were constructed. These included workshops, stores and living and messing accommodation.
  4. 1960: Concrete roads and speed track were built.
  5. 1963: A test slope and splash pan were built.
  6. 1971: The administrative and control building was built.
  7. Twenty.
  8. (a) Yes. (b) Yes.
  9. (a) (1) Construction of living and messing accommodation for rank and file.
  10. Conversion of an existing building to a paint shop and electrical workshop.
  11. Construction of a Q store and technical stores.
  12. Construction of a vehicle compound.
  13. Construction of a car park.
  14. Construction of an inflammable liquids store.

    1. Army planning was completed this year.
    2. It is hoped to commence the new construction in about 2 years time, but this will be dependent upon its relative priority within the funds allocation.

Wheat (Question No. 4609)

Mr Hayden:

asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice:

In relation to the production of Australian wheat, what was the (a) total value of production, (b) value of wheat sold on the (i) domestic market and (ii) export market, (c) average price per bushel obtained from (i) domestic sales and (ii) export sales, (d) quantity sold on the (i) domestic market and (ii) export market and (e) amount of Government contribution to the Stabilization Fund for each year from and including 1939-60.

Mr Nixon:
Minister for Shipping and Transport · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · CP

– As Acting Minister for Primary Industry I supply the following answer to the honourable member’s question:

Australian Wool Board (Question No. 4618)

Mr Whitlam:

asked the Minister for

Primary Industry, upon notice:

  1. How many meetings of the Wool Board have been held in each year since Sir William Gunn was appointed to it.
  2. How many meetings were attended by Sir William Gunn in each year.
Mr Nixon:
CP

– As Acting Minister for Primary Industry I supply the following answer to the honourable the Leader of the Opposition:

  1. and (2) Sir William Gunn was appointed to the Australian Wool Board on 1st July 1951 and has served on that body continuously since then. Between 1953 and 1963 the Wool Board operated under a changed name, viz., the Australian Wool Bureau. In August 1958 Sir William was appointed Chairman of the Bureau. He held this position until the Bureau was reconstituted and reverted to the name Australian Wool Board on 1st May 1963. Sir William was appointed Chairman of the reconstituted Wool Board and still occupies this position.

The number of meetings of the Wool Board/Bureau held in each year since July 1951 and the number attended by Sir William Gunn were as follows:

Trading Bank Advances (Question No. 4626)

Mr Barnard:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice:

  1. Were the trading banks notified of the Government’s decision to increase advance limits by $5m per week before the Prime Minister’s announcement in the House on 26th October 1971.
  2. If so, on what date were they notified and what was their assessment of the feasibility of lending at the level proposed by the Prime Minister.
Mr Snedden:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. and (2) In early October the Reserve Bank, after consultation with the Government, informed the trading banks that no objection would be raised to some increase in the level of their new lending which had been under considerable restraint for a long period. When consulting with the Government about the likely impact of this measure, the Reserve Bank indicated that the possible increase in new lending above recent figures might be something of the order of $5m a week over the coming months.

Education: Students’ Fees (Question No. 4660)

Mr Kennedy:

asked the Minister for

Education and Science, upon notice:

  1. Can he say what types of fees and charges of all kinds were levied on students attending (a) pre-schools, (b) primary schools and (c) secondary schools under Government control in each State in 1970 or in the latest year for which details are available.
  2. Can he also say what was the level of these fees and charges, and what was the total amount raised by schools in (a) each level and (b) all 3 levels of education in each State in the same year.
Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

Information in the detail requested in respect of schools under State Government control is not held by my Department.

Education: Servicemen’s Children in Holsworthy-Inglcburn Area (Question No. 4511)

Mr Whitlam:

asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice:

Has a survey been conducted in the HolsworthyIngleburn area, as in the PuckapunyaiSeymour area (Hansard, 13th October 1971, page 2324), to ascertain the number of servicemen who have children of secondary school age and the categories of schools which their children attend.

Mr Peacock:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

No survey has been made of the HolsworthyIngleburn area. The survey of the PuckapunyalSeymour area, to which the Honourable Leader of the Opposition refers, was undertaken as a special task to provide answers to a question asked by the Member for Bendigo.

The survey conducted in the Puckapunyal.Seymour area required considerable staffing effort to collect and collate the data, however, because the Seymour-Puckapunyal area is relatively concentrated and the number of servicemen with children of secondary school age comparatively few, it was possible for this survey to be conducted.

To undertake a similar survey in the HolsworthyIngleburn area, which is such a large geographic area and where a great number of servicemen are located, would be a very costly exercise and I am not disposed to authorise the necessary expenditure. In addition, the turbulence’ arising from the return of servicemen from Vietnam would cast doubt upon the accuracy of any statistics collected at this time.

Education: Servicemen’s Children in Townsville Area (Question No. 4592) Mr Whitlam asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice:

Has a survey been conducted in the Townsville area, as in the Puckapunyal-Seymour area (Hansard. 13 October 1971. page 2324), lo ascertain the number of servicemen who have children of secondary school agc and the categories of schools which their children attend.

Mr Peacock:
LP

– The answer to the honourable members question is as follows: See answer to Parliamentary Question’ No. 4511.

Defence Personnel: Accommodation (Question No. 4779) Mr Kennedy asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice:

  1. Mow many applications for married quarters in the Puckapunyal-Seymour area are still outstanding.
  2. How many have been outstanding, for (a) 1 week to 1 month, (b) 1 month to 3 months, (c) 3 months to 6 months and (d) longer than 6 months.
Mr Peacock:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. As at 26 November 1971 there were 72 outstanding applications for married quarters in the Puckapunyal-Seymour area.
  2. A break up of this number is shown:

    1. 1 week to 1 month 38.
    2. I month lo 3 months 32.
    3. 3 months to 6 months Nil.
    4. longer than 6 months Nil.

As at 26 November 1971 2 members applications have been outstanding for less than 1 week.

Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital (Question No. 4889)

Mr Kennedy:

asked the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice:

  1. How many in-patients are receiving treatment under the Repatriation Act ai Heidelberg Hospital.
  2. What (a) number and (t>) percentage of these patients served in the (i) Boer War, (ii) First World War, (iii) Second World War, (iv) Korean War, (v) Malayan emergency, (vi) confrontation of Malaysia, (vii) Vietnam War and (viii) other wars.
Mr Holten:
Minister for Repatriation · INDI, VICTORIA · CP

– The answer to the honour able member’s question is as follows:

  1. 549 as at the close of the September 1971 quarter.

The remaining patients (22.40 per cent) were dependants of deceased ex -servicemen (74 from the First World War and 49 from Second World War).

Petrol (Question No. 4892)

Mr Hansen:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for Customs and Excise, upon notice:

  1. What precautions are taken to ensure a minimum octane rating in petrol sold as (a) standard or (b) premium grade.
  2. Do Commonwealth officers make checks of petrol at the point of sale to the public to guard against dilution and selling of standard grade as premium grade, similar to checks made of spirits and beer in hotels.
Mr Chipp:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. The octane rating of petrol has no bearing on the rate of duty or on any other requirement of Customs or Excise legislation and consequently, no direct checks are made of this facet of oil company operations.
  2. Petrol sold at retail outlets has passed from Customs control and consequently any checks in respect of quality or quantity at the point of sale would be a matter for State or Local Authorities.

No quality checks are required to be made by officers of the Department of Customs and Excise in respect to potable spirits and beer after duty has been paid and the liquors have passed from Customs control.

Repatriation (Question No. 4671)

Mr Hansen:

asked the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice:

  1. Was the . allowance payable to repatriation pensioners who use their own transport to obtain treatment reduced from 11.4c to 6c a mile; if so, why?
  2. If the position is as stated, did the Repatriation Commission reduce the allowance on its own initiative after considering evidence that travel costs are reducing or was the reduction part of the Government’s economy drive to reduce expenditure.
Mr Holten:
CP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. The rate of the allowance payable to repatriation pensioners who use their own transport to attend for medical treatment or other authorised purposes was revised in May 1971. The allowance previously authorised where public transport was available, and the pensioner’s incapacity did not prevent its use, was an amount equal to the cost that would have been incurred by using public transport. In any other circumstances an allowance, based on mileage travelled, was paid at the following rates: 4 cylinder vehicle - 9.5c a mile 6 cylinder vehicle - 11.4c a mile 8 cylinder vehicle - 16.5c a mile

Those rates were based on the rates approved under Public Service Regulation 90 for officers of the Public Service who used their own vehicles for authorised official purposes, and incorporated elements for standing expenses such as insurance, registration, depreciation, etc., as well as the cost of petrol, oil, etc.

During the review of these rates which commenced in mid-1970 the Repatriation Commission considered that the rates payable under Public Service Reg. 90a for officers of the public service who used a private vehicle for specified purposes on irregular occasions, would be more appropriate for repatriation pensioners. Accordingly, the new rates authorised were:

  1. where public transport is available but the pensioner, of his own choice, prefers to use his private vehicle, he is paid at a rate of 6c a mile irrespective of the size of the motor;
  2. where public transport is not available, or the pensioner’s incapacity will not allow for its use, payment is made at the following rates: 4 cylinder vehicle - 7c a mile 6 cylinder vehicle - 8.2c a mile 8 cylinder vehicle - 12.1c a mile.

The current rates are designed to cover actual running costs, so that ex-servicemen would not be out of pocket, but they do not cover fixed costs of owning a motor vehicle, such as insurance, registration, depreciation, etc.

  1. Neither. See answer (1) above.

Advanced Education Scholarships (Question No. 4581)

Dr Cass:

asked the Minister for Educa tion and Science, upon notice:

  1. Why are 70 per cent of Commonwealth Advanced Education Scholarships declined (question No. 3645, Hansard, 12th October 1971, page 2226).
  2. Why are declined scholarships not reallocated.
  3. What is the comparable figure for university scholarships.
Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. Students who receive the offer of a scholarship but who decide not to accept it are asked to indicate in their reply to the offer their reasons for not accepting. Information for 1971 Commonwealth Advanced Education scholarships is available for 3 Stales, New South Wales (including the Australian Capital Territory), Victoria and South Australia. Out of the 6,030 students throughout Australia who rejected an offer, 5,219 were in the 3 States mentioned. The reasons given by students in those States for rejection of the offer were:
  1. The full quota of Commonwealth Advanced Education scholarships is used each year. As a general rule, scholarships which are declined are immediately re-offered to candidates placed next in order of merit. In some circumstances, however, where the proportion of students who will reject the offer of an Advanced Education scholarship can be forecast, the initial offer is increased beyond the quota, and rejected scholarships are not re-offered.
  2. In 1971, 19 per cent of the students offered a Commonwealth University scholarship rejected the offer. For this scheme also the number of scholarships available was fully used. The number of offers made was in excess of the quota in order to make allowance for those students not accepting awards.

Libraries (Question No. 4490)

Mr Barnard:

asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice:

  1. What has been the-

    1. total recurrent expenditure on libraries;
    2. expenditure on library books and periodicals;
    3. bookstocks;
    4. number of professional staff, and
    5. number of other staff in relation to each college of advanced education in Australia for each of the last 5 years.
  2. What are the estimated figures for each of the next three years.
  3. and (2) The question was referred to the

Universities: Enrolments and Incomes (Question No. 3644)

Mr Whitlam:

asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice:

Will he bring up to date the information which his predecessor gave on 25th September 1970 (Hansard, page 1742) on universities.

Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. There are 123,643 students at Australian universities in 1971, of whom 26,235 are new bachelor degree students. Total enrolments exclude 133 higher doctor course enrolments.
  2. The number of Commonwealth University scholarship holders in training at 30th June 1971 was 34,168. This represents 27.6 per cent of the total student enrolment at universities in 1971, and 31.5 per cent of students enrolled in bachelor degree and diploma courses, i.e. those courses covered by the Commonwealth University Scholarship Scheme.
  3. (a) The number of applications received for Commonwealth university scholarships available in 1971 was 59,326.

    1. the number of Commonwealth university scholarships offered in 1971 was 15,796.
    2. The number accepted was 12,752. This represents 21.5 per cent of the total number of applicants.

The figures shown in the above table relate to numbers passing the relevant examination in each State al a standard which meets the matriculation requirements of at least one university within that State. Because of differing university m a t i E c u 1 a t i o i requirements the figures are not necessarily comparable between States.

The figure for Western Australia for 1969 in answer lo the previous question has now been revised 10 1,905.

  1. The following number of Commonwealth university scholarship holders are enrolled in the first academic year of courses in 1971. These include students who accepted awards in earlier years, deferred their entry lo university and commenced their courses in 1971.
  2. Al 301 h June 1971 there were:

    1. 31,772 Commonwealth university scholar., in full-lime studies at universities; and
    2. 2,396 Commonwealth university scholars in part-time studies al universities.
  3. Under the Commonwealth University Scholarship Scheme, living allowance is payable to scholars in full-time study subject to a means test. For most scholars the rate of allowance is assessed on the basis of their parents’ incomes. At 30th June 1971. 8,412 of these scholars were eligble to receive part living allowance and 3,413 were eligible to receive full living allowance. In addition (here were 2,411 scholars classed as independent’ of whom the majojrity were in receipt of full living allowance.
  4. The actual expenditure on benefits for Commonwealth university scholarships in 1970-71 and the estimated expenditure for 1971-72 are as follows:
  1. The numbers and percentages of Commonwealth university scholars who failed in 1970 were:
  1. The student-staff ratio in each university in 1970 was:
  1. The answer to this part of the honourable member’s question was given on 17th August 1971 in answer to his Question No. 2592 (Hansard, pace 156). 12 ((a) and (b)) The following table shows the number and percentage of applicants who failed to gain entry into the faculty of their first choice where an entry quota was applied. However, many of these applicants would have been successful in gaining admission lo a faculty of an alternative choice. Moreover, as experience has shown that not all successful applicants take up an offer of a place in a faculty of their first choice, it is likely that many who did not receive such an offer, because they gained insufficient marks at the matriculation examination, would not have accepted an offer had it been made.

I would also invite the honourable member’s attention to my recent answer to his question No. 3642 in which I pointed out that the fact that a proportion of the applicants for university places is unable to be accommodated is not in itself proof that the number of university places is inadequate.

(13 (a)) The numbers of students enrolled at each university in 1971 for the degrees of M.B., B.S. and B.Med.Sc. are as follows:

  1. As at 30 April 1971. (b) First year students who will transfer to the University of Adelaide for the remainder of the course in the following year. (13 (b)) The numbers of beds available for teaching at each university in 1971 are as follows:

    1. The answer to this part of the honourable member’s question was provided on 3rd May 1971 in answer to his question No. 2423 (Hansard, pages 2407 and 2408). (15 (a) and (b)) The amount and percentage of each university’s income received from (i) the Commonwealth, (ii) a State, (iii) endowments and benefactions and (iv) fees in 1969 are shown in the following table:
  1. University fees paid by the Commonwealth in respect of Commonwealth University (undergraduate) scholars in training in 1969 were as follows:

The percentages in column (b) of part 16 show the relationship between students’ fees, as defined, paid by the Commonwealth and students’ fees paid from all sources as used In the answer to part 15. The two sets of figures used to calculate percentages in part 16 (b) are not strictly comparable.

The figures in part 16 (a) include fees paid to student unions, etc., whereas the part 15 figures exclude these; again the part 15 figures include an unknown element for post-graduate fees. The amounts involved are relatively small but would, if known, require a small variation in the percentages given in the answer to part 16.

(17)

  1. 8) The following table shows the number and percentage of new male and female bachelor degree students in each State and the A.C.T. in 1971.

Paramedical Service (Question No. 4500)

Mr Reynolds:
BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice:

  1. What sum has been provided under the

States Grants (Paramedical Services) Act 1969 to each State in each year of the operation of the Act.

  1. What sum was provided in each category of service specified in the Act.
Dr Forbes:
Minister for Immigration · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP

– The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member’s question:

  1. No payments have been made to date under the States Grants (Paramedical Services) Act 1969. However, claims for fifty per cent reimbursement are expected in due course in respect of the following paramedical service schemes which have been approved under the Act.

Japanese Citizens: Admission to Australia for Employment (Question No. 4435)

Mr Daly:

asked the Minister for Immigration, upon notice:

  1. What are the general terms and conditions under which Japanese citizens are admitted to Australia for employment?
  2. How many have been admitted to Australia for employment in each of the last 5 years?
  3. What were their (a) occupational classifications, (b). wages or salaries, (c) industries of employment (d) terms of employment and (e) locations?
  4. How many of those admitted in the last 5 years and still in Australia are (a) in their original occupational classifications, (b) in the industry in which they werefirst employed and (c) at their original locations?
Dr Forbes:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

The majority of persons coining here from Japan to engage in employment seek to come here for limited stay. The policy and procedures which apply to such applications for temporary residence are the same for nationals of all countries subject to visa requirements and apply equally to Japanese nationals.

Generally, Japanese nationals seeking to enter Australia for temporary residence to engage in employment, are in one of the following broad categories:

  1. Senior Management Personnel appointed to provide managerial direction in a branch company in Australia or to undertake similar duties with a joint venture may be granted visas authorising stays up to an initial period of 4 years. Usually, such applicants would be managerial staff of companies operating in Australia and executives of large overseas trading companies. Japanese in this category may extend their stay beyond the initial period of 4 years.
  2. Nonexecutive, professional and technical specialist staff for employment with Australian branches of overseas companies, joint ventures, and Australian companies may be granted visas to come here for varying periods, up to a maximum of 2 years, depending inter alia on the nature and duration of the project and of the specialist skills involved where: -

    1. a special need for the applicant’s services has been established; and
    2. the persons concerned have some particular expertise and specialist skills not readily available locally - the employer may be required to take reasonable steps to test the local labour market by seeking to obtain suitably qualified workers in Australia.

Where overseas-based personnel are introduced under these provisions the policy adopted is that every reasonable opportunity must be given to locally-engaged workers to enjoy the benefits to be derived from work on developmental and other projects carried out in this country. Similarly it is generally a condition of their entry that the employer take steps to ensure that workers recruited in Australia be given an opportunity to learn the specialist skills possessed by the expatriate workers. This envisages the introduction of suitable training arrangements by the employer. Such conditions are directed to ensuring that Australia will not need continually to rely on the importation of short-term labour to obtain the benefit of these skills and so that, in appropriate cases, expatriate personnel may progressively be repatriated as locally-engaged workers become competent to carry out their functions.

A standard condition of entry is always that the personnel admitted to Australia must receive wages and work under conditions no less favourable than those applying to Australian workers engaged on comparable work and that all relevant Australian industrial laws, awards and agreements apply in respect of the expatriate personnel.

Applications within this group are normally the subject of consultations with the Department of Labour and National Service which advises on industrial relations and employment aspects.

  1. Entertainers and Sportsmen may be granted short-term entry in order to fulfil specific engagements. They need to be sponsored by a reputable entrepreneur who is required to guarantee their maintenance and return bookings. In the case of entertainers the Department of Labour and National Service is consulted as to any industrial relations or employment aspects posed by the proposed entry. This latter procedure does not apply in the case of performers of international repute.

The requirements to be met by persons whose entry for temporary residence has been approved depend upon the proposed period of stay in Australia. These are:

  1. Up to and including twelve months

Applicants should be in sound health and of good character but no physical examination or inquiries are required.

  1. Over twelve months

Full medical examination (including X-ray) has to be completed satisfactorily. In addition applicants are required to produce a certificate of non-criminal record.

  1. Arrivals of Japanese for temporary residence over the last five financial years are as follows:
  1. and (4) Salary details are not available but admission for temporary residence is conditional upon the employer agreeing to meet at least Australian award rates and conditions of employment.

Japanese temporary residents almost invariably remain in the same occupations while in Australia.

In some occupational categories job locations might alter occasionally but such changes are very infrequent.

The following table contains a breakdown into broad occupational classifications of Japanese temporarily resident at present in Australia:

Papua New Guinea: Application of International Labour Organisation Conventions Nos 47 and 112 (Question No. 4253)

Mr WHITLAM:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

asked the Minister for External Territories, upon notice:

  1. When was the attention of the Administration of Papua New Guinea drawn to International Labour Organisation Conventions No. 47 - FortyHour Week, 1935 and No. 112- Minimum Wage (Fishermen), 1959, which were ratified by Australia on 22n.d October 1970 and 15th June 1971 respectively;
  2. What steps have been taken to apply each convention to New Guinea and Papua.
Mr Barnes:
Minister for External Territories · MCPHERSON, QUEENSLAND · CP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. and (2) As indicated in my answer to the honourable member’s question No. 2874 (page 1707 of House of Representatives Hansard for 29th September 1971) the texts of all International Labour Organisation Instruments are, as a matter of practice, brought to the attention of the Administration of Papua New Guinea as they are adopted. lt is currently expected that the Australian Government will reserve its decision with respect to the application of Convention No. 47 to Papua New Guinea. In the view of the the Administrator’s Executive Council it would be inappropriate to accept the principle of a 40-hour week for Papua at this stage of the country’s development.

As advised in my reply to the honourable member’s question No. 3399, there is close conformity between the law and practice of Papua New Guinea and Convention No. 112. The question of the declarations to be made in respect to Papua New Guinea is currently under consideration.

Papua New Guinea: Tola! Cocoa Project (Question No. 4456)

Mr Whitlam:

asked the Minister for External Territories, upon notice:

What are the conditions which the Gazelle Council attached to the transfer of the assets of the Total Cocoa Project to a wholly indigenous owned company but which it has not been possible to satisfy.

Mr Barnes:
CP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

The matter referred to is one which falls within the authority of the Ministerial Member for Agriculture, Stock and Fisheries in the House of Assembly for Papua New Guinea. The Administrator, on the advice of the Ministerial Member for Agriculture, Stock and Fisheries, has provided the following information:

The Ministerial Member ‘regrets that he is unable to supply the information requested rn. this question. In order to answer the question it would be necessary to give details of the business activities of the New Guinea Islands Produce Company, a wholly owned indigenous company, and the Tolai Cocoa Project, a business activity of the Gazelle Council, and he feels that it would not be ethical to make these public’

Aboriginals: Liquor Sales (Question No. 4406)

Dr Everingham:

asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice:

  1. Has his attention been drawn to a report by Professor Berndt, a Western Australian anthropologist, of the social behaviour of Aboriginal men and women since a liquor store opened on a mining lease at East Alligator River crossing late in 1969 despite objections by the adjoining mission and the Aborigines, and of his claim that the mission would soon be forced to close unless immediate action was taken.
  2. Ii so, what action has been taken in the matter.
  3. Will he confer with native spokesmen and the Minister for External Territories and take steps to ensure that liquor is not introduced to populations where it is clearly more damaging than other drugs at present restricted or banned in Australia.
  4. Will the Government ensure that all estimated revenue proceeds of liquor sales to native peoples, or at least equivalent amounts, are devoted to (a) education of native peoples in the dangers and values of alcohol as a food, drug and poison and (b) medical and social help and rehabilitation for the victims of alcoholism and their dependants.
Mr Hunt:
CP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. I have read Professor Berndt’s report. The text of a statement issued recently on the matter by the Bishop of the Northern Territory, the Right Reverend K. Mason and the Church Missionary, Society Field Superintendent, Mr P. Leske, is given at the end of the answer as it puts the Church and Mission views on the effects of drinking on the Oenpelli community.
  2. There has been continuing and close consultation between the Mission authorities and the Administration about the incidence of drinking by Aborigines from Oenpelli at the store concerned. I also spoke to the Oenpelli community about this matter earlier this year when 1 visited there. There has been increased supervision by police of the area. The mission authorities have also had talks with the licensee and these are referred to in the statement quoted below.
  3. The report of the Commission appointed by the Administrator of Papua, and New Guinea to inquire into drinking of intoxicating liquors in that Territory will be studied when available to see if the recommendations of that Commission have any application to particular communities in the Northern Territory.

The Advisory Council on Northern Territory Aboriginal Affairs which includes 12 Aborigines representing communities throughout the Territory will be given every opportunity, to consider the effects of the introduction of liquor in Aboriginal communities and to advise on action which might be taken in this regard.

  1. Part of the continuing work of Welfare officers is Instruction on the need for moderation in the consumption of alcohol with individual counselling given in problem cases.

The Board of the Methodist Mission has been informed that the Government is prepared to subsidise the salary of a social worker whose duties would include education programmes on drinking and family counselling in particular cases. Similar assistance tor other mission authorities would be considered if requested.

Funds for health and social services for Aborigines in the Territory are provided under appropriations in the Budget of the responsible Departments.

Text of statement by the Bishop of the Northern Territory, the Right Reverend K. Mason, and Mr P. Leske

Recent controversy has focused on the Border Store, situated on the western side of the East Alligator River, which is the Arnhem Land border. Mr Terry Robinson began to operate the store towards the end of 1966, to cater for the needs of tourists who come in considerable numbers to the area. As well, the store has attracted numbers of Oenpelli Aboriginals.

In 1969 Mr Robinson applied for a liquor licence. This application was opposed by the Oenpelli Aboriginals and Mission authorities - nonetheless the licence was granted in August, 1969.

Mr Robinson undertook lo sell beer only and not “hard” spirits, but over the last 2 years the availability of liquor so close to Oenpelli has led to considerable breakdown in the life of the Aboriginals.

Drunkenness and fighting resulted in frequent damage to life and properly. Family, life for many was disrupted and social and moral problems began lo increase.

A large proportion of the wages of many workers went on beer at the Border Store, and with more vehicles operating in the area. Aboriginals were also able to go further afield for liquor.

Professor Ronald Berndt, during a recent visit to Oenpelli, was dismayed at the position and spoke of alcohol leading to genocide. His remarks led to a good deal of publicity. Conferences among Mission staff and Aboriginals have been held, and Mr Robinson attended discussions on 13th October.

All present were deeply concerned about the problems and there was a full sharing of difficulties with the desire to find a way forward.

The Aboriginal people have now expressed the following wishes:

  1. It is essential for a policeman to be resident in the area.
  2. No alcohol should be made available to the Oenpelli side of the East Alligator River - i.e. a “wet” canteen is not wanted.
  3. The fact that the Border Store sells only beer is appreciated. This licence should not be withdrawn, as this would aggravate matters by leading to a search for liquor from further away.
  4. Much better facilities should be provided at the Border Store for leisurely drinking, with no beer to be taken away from the store.

Mr Robinson fully recognises the gravity of the position and wants to do all in his power to improve and control matters.

The Oenpelli Aboriginals have been stirred by recent happenings and are determined to exercise whatever controls are possible among their own people.

The outcome of recent discussions has been welcomed by Church and Mission authorities in the Diocese, and the desire of all involved to cooperate in improving the situation is cause for thankfulness.

We appreciate the concern of Church people about these problems, and hope that the above will lead to continuing informed prayer.’

Australian Capital Territory: Water Rates (Question No. 4555) Mr Enderby asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice:

  1. What principles and tests are applied to determine how water rates are charged in the Australian Capital Territory.
  2. Does the system require flat dwellers without gardens to pay a minimum sum of $20 for water used up to 100,000 gallons which is the same as that required of householders with gardens.
  3. What percentage of (a) householders and (b) flat dwellers used (i) less than 20,000 gallons, (ii) less than 40,000 gallons, (iii) less than 60,000 gallons, (iv) less than 80,000 gallons, (v) less than 100,000 gallons and (vi) more than 100,000 gallons in the last year.
  4. Are householders permitted the free use of 25,000 gallons per annum for the purpose of watering nature strips irrespective of the size of those nature strips.
  5. Do householders occupying corner blocks of land often have twice the area of nature strips surrounding their house than other householders.
  6. Will he change the present system of imposing water rates to give greater equity to householders occupying corner blocks and to flat dwellers; if not, why not.
Mr Hunt:
CP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows: (1), (2) and (4) The principle underlying the system of water charging in the Australian Capital Territory is that all consumers should contribute to the cost incurred in providing for the storage of sufficient water to meet all consumers need: and in treating and reticulating it to their properties. The minimum charge (currently $20 per annum) therefore represents a contribution b) each consumer towards the capital, maintenance and operating costs of the system. In setting the minimum charge of $20 for 100,000 gallons of water the contribution of consumers to the development of Canberra as a garden city continued to be recognised. Instead of setting 75,000 gallons as the quantity allowable before excess was charged, 25,000 gallons was added to encourage consumers to continue to maintain na’.ure strips. Flat dwellers pay only the minimum charge irrespective of the amount of water consumed.

  1. Consumption statistics are not available in the form requested by the honourable member. However, consumption by all consumers in 1968, the latest year for which these figures are available, was:

Based on current charges the 35 per cent of consumers who used less than 75,000 gallons would have contributed 19 per cent of the water revenue. The 50 per cent who used more than 100,000 gallons would have contributed 72 per cent.

  1. Even ignoring comparisons between corner blocks and others, there are wide variations in ‘he sizes of nature strips adjacent to houses.
  2. The distribution of water charges between consumers is considered to be equitable and no changes are proposed at present.

Repatriation: Australian Servicemen in Vietnam (Question No. 4693)

Mr Whitlam:

asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice:

  1. How many (a) regular and (b) national servicemen in Vietnam have incurred disabilities described in successive lines of the first column of the Fourth and Fifth Schedules of the Repatriation Act between June 1965 when the first Australian Battalion arrived in that country and November 1971 when Australian Forces withdrew from operations.
  2. How many (a) regular and (b) national servicemen have been killed (i) in action and (ii) in accidents in that country between those dates.
Mr Peacock:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. The Army holds medical statistics, in the form sought, only from August 1969 to > 1st October 1971. To obtain the information in this form prior to August 1969 would involve detailed examination by medical officers of thousands of medical records. In view of this, and as the records are held in nine different locations, this is considered impracticable.
  1. Of a total of 474 fatalities occurring in South Vietnam between July 1962 and November 1971, 472 were killed between June 1965 and November 1971. These consist of:

Centurion Tanks (Question No. 4704)

Mr Kennedy:

asked the Minister for the

Army, upon notice:

  1. When was the Centurion tank first acquired for the Australian Army.
  2. How many have been purchased since that date.
  3. In which overseas theatres have they been used and when.
  4. How many are still fully operational.
  5. Where are the operational tanks located, and how many are located at each place.
  6. What was the average purchase price.
  7. What is the crew of a tank, and how many are there of each rank.
Mr Peacock:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. Centurion tanks were first acquired in 1952.
  2. Within the period 1952-1961, a total of 127 tanks of all configurations were received. In 1969 one further tank and three hulls were purchased from New Zealand and in 1970 a further 15 tanks from the United Kingdom (ex Hong Kong). These latter purchases were made to sustain the repair/rebuild cycle supporting tanks deployed in South Vietnam. Total acquisition since 1952 has thus covered 143 complete tanks of various configurations.
  3. The only, overseas theatre where Centurion tanks have been deployed by the Australian Army is Vietnam.
  4. At present 80 of the total fleet are fully operational, of which 18 are in depot stock. Repair programmes for the remainder of the fleet are in hand.
  5. It would not be in the public interest to provide this information.
  6. The average price of the tanks initially procured was $120,000. Later procurement of used tanks was at an average price of $14,000 from the United Kingdom and $8,000 from New Zealand. These acquisition costs do not reflect the cost of modifications and rebuilds, which cannot be fully established.
  7. The crew of the Centurion tank is 4, comprising Commander, gunner, radio operator and driver. The Commander could be an officer, sergeant or corporal. A percentage of the gunners, radio operators and drivers may be corporals or lance corporals and the remainder of the crew are troopers.

Canberra: Transport Services (Question No. 4712)

Mr Enderby:

asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice:

  1. In relation to his answer to question No. 4390 (Hansard, 2nd November 1971, page 2888) regarding public transport services in Canberra, how is the majority demand assessed to enable his Department to determine the peak hour services to be provided.
  2. If no meaningful comparisons can be made with other cities, what standard has been chosen as being appropriate to meet the needs of the people of Canberra and how was this standard selected.
  3. Can he say whether the people of Canberra are as well provided with public transport as the people living in other Australian capital cities.
  4. Has a decision ever been made to encourage or permit the transport requirements of Canberra to be satisfied more by private transport than by public transport; if so, when and why was this decision made.
Mr Hunt:
CP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

  1. The majority demand is assessed by passenger counts and reports by inspectors and bus drivers. Requests by the public are also taken into account. Loadings are kept under observation and additional services are provided when required.

The established pattern of peak bour services is varied to meet changes in points of passenger concentration. Before new centres of employment open the likely patronage, based on the estimated number of workers to be engaged, is assessed in order to determine the need for additional peak hour services.

  1. Arising from the 1967 study of the Canberra bus service the method of operation was modified to meet the needs of the growing city more satisfactorily. The operating of the service was determined having regard to route coverage and directness, road design, bus stop spacing, loading, speed, service frequency and capacity to adhere to timetable.

The service is designed to achieve the following standards:

No residents further than one half mile walking distance from a bus stop. Stops at 2/10ths of a mile intervals (except on express services). Thirty minute service during business hours. Peak hour services to meet demand. Ratio of route length to shortest road distance not to exceed 1.2. In the operation of the service the aims also include the achievement of minimum journey times and avoidance of overloading.

Buses are sold after approximately 10 years or approximately 200,000 miles and the new buses offer high standards of comfort and cleanliness.

  1. As stated in answer to question No. 4390 (Hansard, 2nd November 1971, page 2888) it is
  2. and (2) doubtful whether there is any basis on which meaningful comparisons can be made. However, related to demand the service provided in Canberra is considered to be of a satisfactory standard.
  3. There were privately operated bus services in Canberra until 1926. Tenders were invited for the private operation of the city bus service in 1927 and 1932 but no satisfactory contracts could be arranged. There were no later attempts to engage private operators.

Aircraft Industry (Question No. 4724)

Mr Scholes:

asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice:

Will any proposals for a merger of the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation and the Government Aircraft Factories be presented to Parliament for ratification before any agreement is signed.

Mr Garland:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

An in-depth study of the practicability of a merger of the 2 organisations is now in progress. The study is a complex one however and it is not expected that any firm recommendations will be made to the Government until the early months of 1972. At this stage it is too early to say how the matter will be dealt with following Government consideration.

Home Care Services (Question No. 4732)

Mr Cohen:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice:

  1. What moneys have been allocated to the States under the Stales Grants (Home Care) Act 1969 in each of the Budgets for 1969-70, 1970-71 and 1971-727
  2. How much of this allocation has been taken up by the States and for what purposes?
Mr Wentworth:
LP

– The answer to the honourable member’s question is as follows:

lt will not be known until the end of the financial year, how much of the 1971-72 allocations has been taken up. {:#subdebate-57-20} #### Aid to India and Pakistan (Question No. 4746) {: #subdebate-57-20-s0 .speaker-8H7} ##### Mr Enderby: asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What was the value of the aid to (a) India and (b) Pakistan (i) in each of the last four financial years and (ii) budgeted for in 1971-72. 1. From the sum allocated in each year, how much was spent on (a) food, (b) other aid given as a result of natural disasters and (c) transport costs in each case. {: #subdebate-57-20-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The value of Australian aid to India and Pakistan in the last four financial years and budgeted for in 1971-72 is: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. (a) and (b) Details are given in the following table of expenditure on food aid, and emergency relief for natural disasters. {: type="a" start="c"} 0. Of the sums listed above for food aid and emergency aid foi natural disasters, transport costs met by Australia amounted to $118,300 for the emergency shipment of wheat for Pakistan in 1970-71. Food aid has been given since 1968-69 under the Food Aid Convention of the International Grains Arrangement (now called the International Wheat Agreement). Under the Convention, Australia's financial obligations are limited to the cost of the grain f.o.b., i.e. stored on the ship. {:#subdebate-57-21} #### Control of Mergers (Question No. 4761) {: #subdebate-57-21-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did Attorney-General Barwick propose that mergers should be investigated under restrictive trade practices legislation and should be held up for a certain period if more than half a million dollars is involved. 1. How many of these mergers have taken place in each year since then. {: #subdebate-57-21-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The Attorney-General has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Proposals for the control of such mergers were made on behalf of **Sir Garfield** Barwick on 6th December 1962 (Hansard pages 3102-3113). In having the proposals put forward **Sir Garfield** Barwick made it clear that he was seeking the views of interested parties and of members of the public generally so us* to enable the Government to make its final decisions on the matter. In the light of the representations received the proposals were not proceeded with for the reasons stated on 19th' May 1965 by the then Attorney-General when introducing the Trade Practices Bill 196.1 (Hansard page 1656). 1. Statistical information about such mergers is not available. {:#subdebate-57-22} #### Social Services Review (Question No. 4803) {: #subdebate-57-22-s0 .speaker-KXI} ##### Mr Webb:
STIRLING, WESTERN AUSTRALIA asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: When social services are being reviewed, will he give full consideration to (a) granting a full pension to a wife, who is not 60 years of agc, of an age or invalid pensioner, (b) granting supplementary assistance to pensioners owning their own homes to enable them to meet such items as maintenance and (c) increasing the amount of supplementary assistance. {: #subdebate-57-22-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: It is the Government's policy to review regularly all aspects of social services. {:#subdebate-57-23} #### Health Services: Research (Question No. 4728) {: #subdebate-57-23-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What amount has been allocated for research into health services in each of the last 5 years. 1. Into what areas has the research been directed, by whom was it undertaken and what research projects (a) are still current, (b) have been completed and (c) have been cancelled or suspended. 2. Have any papers been published pertaining to this research. {: #subdebate-57-23-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: (1), (2) and (3) The health services field is extensive, covering such areas as hospitals, nursing homes, mental health institutions, medical services, community health, environmental health and quarantine. Research in these fields is being undertaken in universities, government departments and agencies, voluntary health and welfare agencies and private commercial organisations, as well as by private individuals. I am not aware of the full extent of the research being undertaken throughout Australia in all these fields and am therefore unable to provide details of the projects being undertaken or the allocation of finance. {:#subdebate-57-24} #### Overdosage of Drugs (Question No. 4603) {: #subdebate-57-24-s0 .speaker-KRK} ##### Mr McIVOR:
GELLIBRAND, VICTORIA · ALP asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the Minister's attention been drawn' to the great concern expressed by doctors at the Royal Alexandra Hospital for Children, Sydney, and at the Melbourne Royal Children's Hospital, duc to the sharp increase in the incidence of accidental drug overdosage with anti-depressants among children. 1. Can the Minister say whether antidepressants are the most common reason for the admission of children to these institutions due to drug overdose and whether admissions trebled over the past year resulting in the death of 2 children with others coming close to death from this cause. 2. Can he say whether the medical profession regards this situation as a new menace in the drug problem. 3. If so, will the Minister take urgent steps to investigate and control the situation. 4. What is (a) the extent of the use of this type of drug, (b) its cost to the user and (c) its cost of production. {: #subdebate-57-24-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. An article in the Medical Journal of Australia of 23rd October 1971, contributed by the Director of the Intensive Care Unit of the Royal Children's Hospital, Melbourne, stated that tricyclic anti-depressant overdosage is now the most common cause of admission of children to hospital for drug overdosage and that admissions from that cause have trebled. Information on this aspect from the Royal Alexandra Hospital for Children, Sydney, is not readily available but it is understood that there is an impression that there has been an increase in drug overdosage from anti-depressants among children admitted to that hospital. 2. The medical profession is expected to be familiar with the potential hazards of all drugs and to issue appropriate warnings to their patients, particularly where there is a possibility that children could have access to the drugs. Poisoning of children with drugs is related principally to the careless storage of drugs in the home and is not a new problem. Changes in the incidence of poisoning with a particular drug can be related to changes in prescribing habits of doctors. 3. In I960, the Commonwealth established the National Poisons Service. The Commonwealth also issues the National Poisons Register Manual, which contains details of the toxic constituents of a wide variety of chemical compounds, together with advice on appropriate diagnosis and treatment of poisoning. There is a close liaison between the National Poisons Service and Poisons Information Centres in the States and Territories. Particular attention has also been given to the pan which safety containers may play in preventing the poisoning of children. In August 1970, the Director-General of Health wrote to all approved chemists, drawing their attention to a statement by the National Health and Medical Research Council at its 70th Session, in April 1970. At that session, Council expressed its concern at the incidence of poisoning in young children and commended the use of tablet containers that cannot readily be opened by young children. The DirectorGeneral of Health drew attention to the fact that there are containers of a type which was referred to by Council available in Australia and that, insofar as pharmaceutical benefit prescriptions are concerned, such containers come within the allowance provided by the Commonwealth for reimbursement of container costs. The DirectorGeneral urged chemists to give serious consideration to the problem of poisoning in childhood and to the feasibility of implementing the recommendation of the National Health and Medical Research Council concerning the use of safety closures for dispensed medicines. {: type="1" start="5"} 0. (a) and (b) In the year ended 31st October 1971, 666,715 prescriptions for anti-depressants were provided as pharmaceutical benefits for pensioners and their dependants at no cost to the patient. In the same period 1,502,291 prescriptions were dispensed as pharmaceutical benefits to persons other than pensioners and their dependants at a cost of 50 cents patient contribution per prescription. Figures relating to the usage of anti-depessant drugs provided in public hospitals and on non- pharmaceutical benefit prescriptions are not available to my Department. {: type="a" start="c"} 0. Figures relating to production costs of antidepressant drugs are not available to my Department. {:#subdebate-57-25} #### Hearing Aids (Question No. 4836) {: #subdebate-57-25-s0 .speaker-KWZ} ##### Mr Wallis: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: >In cases where hearing aids are provided to age pensioners by the Commonwealth Acoustic Laboratories, are free replacement batteries provided to the pensioners by the Laboratories. {: #subdebate-57-25-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >No. When age pensioners are issued with hearing aids by the Commonwealth Acoustic Laboratories, the aids are fitted with batteries. However, the replacement of batteries is the responsibility of the recipient of the hearing aid. {:#subdebate-57-26} #### Blood Tests (Question No. 4639) {: #subdebate-57-26-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was it the usual practice in many centres in New South Wales for patients requiring blood tests to be charged $4 for the doctor's consultation and $2.50 for the blood test. 1. Was it the usual practice for both charges to be recouped from medical benefit funds. 2. Are charges for the blood tests themselves now being disallowed by funds. 3. Has the change been made by, Government direction; if so, why. 4. If the change was not made at Government direction will the Minister inquire into the present changed practice of the funds. {: #subdebate-57-26-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: (1), (2), (3), (4) and (5). Commonwealth and fund medical benefits are payable for both a consultation and a blood test where both services are performed on the one occasion. However, it is assumed that the honourable member is concerned with the situation where, in the course of a consultation, a doctor collects a blood specimen from the patient for forwarding to another doctor for a pathology test. In such a situation, the collection of the blood specimen is deemed to form part of the consultation and benefits are payable for the attendance only. While some doctors have followed a practice of making a separate charge for the collection of a blood specimen, medical benefit organisations have been reminded that separate benefits are not payable for this service in such circumstances. Co-operative Pharmacies (Question No. 4376) {: #subdebate-57-26-s2 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr Everingham: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did an amendment to the National Health Act in 1964 provide that (a) co-operative pharmacies, established after 23rd April 1964, could not dispense National Health Scheme prescriptions except to members even when an associated pharmacy with unrestricted National Health Scheme approval ceasesto operate in another State and (b) rebates to members of these pharmacies could not be paid unless membership started before that date. 1. If the position is as stated, were these restrictions designed as a deterrent to the over use of National Health Scheme prescribing although employees of the Bank of New South Wales may claim a 75 per cent rebate of medical and hospital charges beyond insurance fund rebates. 2. Will the Government extend the right of patientsto choose their type and degree of health insurance cover not only for hospital and medical costs but also for pharmaceutical costs. 3. Will he state the degree of over use of pharmaceutical, medical and hospital services by those eligible for rebate. 4. Will he explain why the Government enforces a restrictive trade practice selectively on co-operative enterprise and for pharmaceutical services but not on medical or hospital services. {: #subdebate-57-26-s3 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: (1)(a) and (b) Yes. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. and (5) When the patient contribution towards the cost of pharmaceutical benefits was introduced in 1960, it was intended that all persons, except pensioners, would pay the 50c charge. However, members of Friendly Societies paying membership contributions to cover the cost of their medicines were allowed to receive a rebate on all or part of the patient contribution, depending upon the particular Society's rules. Between 1960 and 1964, it became apparentto the Government that its policy of patient participation in the cost of the Scheme was in jeopardy. The Government therefore introduced the 1964 amendments to provide that rebate provisions would be restricted to persons receiving them immediately prior to 24th April 1964. 1. In 1964, it was decided not to allow new insurance against the patient contribution towards the cost of pharmaceutical benefits. This remains the Government's policy. 2. There is insufficient information available on this matter to enable a definitive answer to be provided. {:#subdebate-57-27} #### Hospital and Allied Services Advisory Council (Question No. 4332) {: #subdebate-57-27-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister repre senting the Minister for Health, upon notice: >What is the composition of the Hospital and Allied Services Advisory Council established in 1970 by the Australian Health Ministers' Conference and on what dates have meetings of the Council been held. {: #subdebate-57-27-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >The Council has met on 2 occasions. 19th November 1970 and 23rd September 1971. Formal membership of the Hospital and Allied Services Advisory Council comprises 2 representatives from each of the State Health Departments and the Commonwealth Department of Health. > >The Repatriation Department is represented by observers at Council meetings. {:#subdebate-57-28} #### National Health and Medical Research Council (Question No. 4507) {: #subdebate-57-28-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Does the National Health and Medical Research Council advise the Commonwealth and State Governments on matters concerning the health of the public and on all matters of public health legislation and administration. 1. If so, in what instances has it given advice. {: #subdebate-57-28-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. One of the functions of the NH & MRC is to inquire into, advise and make recommendations to the Commonwealth and the Slates on matters of public health legislation and administration and on any other matters relating to health, medical and dental care and medical research. 1. The first session of the NH & MRC was held in February 1937. The Council has since met at least twice a year, with advice and recommendations on a wide range of matters affecting the health of the community flowing from these sessions to both Commonwealth and State Governments. A complete record of recommendations made by the Council is available in the form of sessional reports, but the magnitude of the task of extracting details of each individual recommendation from these reports makes it impracticable to provide a complete answer to the honourable member's question. Recent sessional reports of Council are available in the Parliamentary Library. Specific information on any particular subject of the Council's recommendations could be made available to the honourable member if he so requested. Listed below, under broad headings, are the main subjects on which the Council has considered it necessary or desirable to provide advice or recommendations. controls over the possession, use, storage and labelling of drugs and poisons; industrial hygiene and occupational health; maternal and child health; dental health; environmental factors which may affect health; prevention and control of mental illness, and the care and rehabilitation of patients with menial illness; traffic injuries; health education; recruitment and training of nurses, and the practice of nursing; matters relating to ionising radiation; the promotion and preservation of health in the tropics; and medical statistics on human morbidity and mortality. Medical Benefits Organisations: Revenues (Question No. 3682) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: >What payments were made to the medical benefits organisations by (a) their members and (b) the Commonwealth in 1970-71. {: #subdebate-57-28-s2 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >In 1970-71 medical benefits organisations received the following amounts: > >from their contributors - $97,374,604 > >from the Commonwealth- $95,604,311 (Note - These figures are subject to confirmation). {:#subdebate-57-29} #### Medical Benefits Organisations: Operating Expenses (Question No. 3683) {: #subdebate-57-29-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What were the operating expenses of the medical benefits organisations in 1970-71. 1. What percentage of contributions did these expenses represent. {: #subdebate-57-29-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The operating expenses of medical benefits organisations during 1970-71 totalled $14,271,170. 1. These operating expenses were equivalent to 14.6 per cent of the total amount of contributions received by the organisations during 1970-71. (Note - The above figures are subject to confirmation). {:#subdebate-57-30} #### Hospital Benefits Organisations: Revenues (Question No. 3679) {: #subdebate-57-30-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked .the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: >What payments were made to the hospital benefits organisations by (a) their members and (b) the Commonwealth in 1970-71. {: #subdebate-57-30-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >In 1970-71, hospital benefits organisations received the following amounts: > >from their contributors- $138,057,200 > >from the Commonwealth- $45,808,560 (Note - These figures are subject to confirmation) Health Insurance: Information for Migrants (Question No. 4234) **Mr Kennedy** asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. By what means do representatives of (a) Commonwealth and (b) medical benefits organisations ensure that migrants arriving by .(i) air and (ii) ship are informed of their eligibility for the subsidised health insurance scheme. 1. Were measures planned for advertising this, scheme through literature printed, in foreign languages. 2. If so, were these measures deferred because of the Government's economy drive in February. {: #subdebate-57-30-s2 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) Information concerning health benefits, including specific information on the Subsidised Health Benefits Plan, is included in a booklet printed in 20 languages which is provided by the Department of Immigration to migrants before embarkation for Australia. A programme of advertising was carried out by the Department of Health in foreign language newspapers and in foreign language radio sessions late in 1969 and early in 1970, to assist in the introduction of the Subsidised Health Benefits Plan. The major health benefits organisations in all States have co-operated in producing information brochures especially for migrants. These brochures are printed in appropriate foreign languages. They are distributed overseas through airline and shipping companies concerned with the carriage of migrants, and through travel agents and Australian banks. Several of the major health benefit organisations have migrant advisory officers who visit Commonwealth hostels and, on request, provide migrants with information concerning the health benefits system. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. and (3) Economy measures have had a bearing on the deferment of proposals for further advertising of the Subsidised Health Benefits Plan in foreign languages. However, as indicated in the reply to question (1), action has been, and continues to be, taken with a view to ensuring that information concerning the Plan is readily available to migrants in foreign languages. {:#subdebate-57-31} #### Quarantine (Question No. 4351) {: #subdebate-57-31-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the Australian Health Authorities' study of new quarantine methods developed in New Zealand, to which the Minister referred in his statement of 21st September 1971, encompass the need for Australia to up-date its quarantine methods in line with the New Zealand initiative. 1. When will Australia abandon its practice of using the United Kingdom to undertake our quarantine work and provide a similar establishment to New Zealand's off-shore quarantine station on Somes Island in Wellington Harbour. 2. ls it a fact that adherence to outmoded practices is denying Australia access to urgently required new genetic material to improve our crop and stock production. {: #subdebate-57-31-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. 1. and (3) Consideration is being given to the establishment of an Australian high security animal quarantine station, one of the purposes of which would be to facilitate the importation of new strain!, of animal genetic material without risk of introducing exotic animal diseases. In present circumstances, the current animal and plant quarantine restrictions arc essential to prevent the entry of exotic animal and plant diseases. However, they do not preclude the importation with safety of new animal and plant genetic material on a limited basis. {:#subdebate-57-32} #### Cigarettes: Television Advertising (Question N". 4544) {: #subdebate-57-32-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr Everingham: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can the Minister say whether a one per cent levy on cigarettes would finance (a) equal time on television to combat cigarette advertising or (b) commercial television stations to compensate for loss of cigarette advertising. 1. Will the Minister discuss the possibility of such a levy with the Postmaster-General and report his conclusions to the Parliament. {: #subdebate-57-32-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Information available to my Department indicates that such a levy would not be sufficient for either of these purposes. 1. Any such levy would primarily involve my colleague, the Treasurer. However, it should be noted that any levy or tax through which revenue derived from a particular source would be hypothecated for a particular purpose would be contrary to the essential requirements and objectives of national budgeting. {:#subdebate-57-33} #### Medical Benefits Organisations: Reserves (Question No. 3684) {: #subdebate-57-33-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What have been the aggregate reserves of the medical benefits organisations in 1970-71. 1. What percentage of contributions did the increase in reserves represent. {: #subdebate-57-33-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The aggregate reserves of the medical benefits organisations as at 30th June 1971 totalled $32,397,043. 1. The aggregate reserves decreased, rather than increased, during 1970-71. The amount by which they decreased during 1970-71 was equivalent to 1.5 per cent of the total amount of contributions received by medical benefits organisations during that year. (Note: The above figures are subject to confirmation). The above figures relate to 'free' reserves, i.e., they exclude amounts set aside in respect of unpresented claims and contributions paid in advance. The Government has adopted a policy under which larger organisations' 'free' reserves will generally be limited to the equivalent of three months' contribution income. In the case of smaller organisations, more flexibility is being allowed and their 'free' reserves may be permitted to exceed that level in appropriate circumstances. This policy was implemented for medical benefits organisations in conjunction with the introduction of the Health Benefits Plan on I July, 1970. The contribution rates set at that time were designed to reduce or, if necessary, increase each organisation's 'free' reserve level to an amount equivalent to three months' contribution income in the case of the larger organisations and equivalent to six months' contribution income in the case of the smaller organisations. These reductions or increases are expected to occur gradually. {:#subdebate-57-34} #### Cigarettes: Radio and Television Advertising (Question No. 4526) {: #subdebate-57-34-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can the Minister say whether Canada's four major cigarette makers have announced an industry-wide agreement to stop radio and television advertising from 1st January 1972. 1. If so, does the agreement also provide for an overall advertising promotion spending freeze at existing levels. 2. Will cigarette packs be manufactured after 1st April 1972 with a printed warning that excessive cigarette smoking may be dangerous to health. 3. Will the industry end production of about 5 existing brands of cigarettes by imposing its own ceiling for maximum permissible levels of tar and nicotine in smoke. 4. Has he any information as to how the Canadian Government proposes at the same time to step up its annual expenditure on smoking research and anti-smoking publicity. 5. Has his attention been drawn to a Bill brought before the House of Commons by the Canadian Health Minister proposing (a) to ban all forms of cigarette advertising, (b) a stricter caution on cigarette packets giving a warning that the danger to health increases wilh the amount smoked and lo avoid inhaling, (c) that packages state tar and nicotine content levels of smoke from cigarettes contained therein, (d) that cigarettes be marked indicating length of butt and (e) that the Cabinet be empowered lo periodically set new ceilings for tar and nicotine levels. 6. Has the Australian Government given consideration to the use of its power to control television and radio advertising to ban cigarette and tobacco advertising; if not, will consideration be given lo the matter. 7. If consideration is not to be given, will he explain the Government's attitude to the matter. 8. Has the Government considered the desirability of requiring endorsements on cigarette and tobacco containers similar to those proposed in the Canadian House of Commons Bill; if not, will the Government consider the matter. tlO) If the Government will not consider the matter, will he indicate why, 9. If the Government is not prepared to ban radio and television advertising, will it consider the imposition of a special tax on all radio and television advertising of cigarettes and tobacco aimed at raising in total an amount equal to that expended on this form of advertising by cigarette and tobacco companies with (he proceeds from this tax to be allocated to an education programme through radio and television which will point out the dangers to health directly related to cigarette smoking; if not, why not. {: #subdebate-57-34-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: (1), (2) and (3) Yes. {: type="1" start="4"} 0. No. 1 understand that the industry will not cease the manufacture of any particular brands of cigarettes. However, the industry has set for itself maximum levels of tar and nicotine content in cigarettes, and I am informed that all brands of cigarettes will be within those levels. 1. The Canadian Minister for National Health and Welfare announced an increase in the budget for the 'Smoking and Health Programme'. This Programme covers research into the effects of smoking on health and the dissemination of information about those effects. The 1971-72 budget which has been approved for these purposes is $350,000 (Canadian), compared wilh $173,000 (Canadian) previously. 2. Yes. 3. and (8) During 1970, the Government undertook a review of cigarette advertising on radio and television. Arising out of this review, it was decided that lo reinforce health education programmes on the hazards of smoking, the voluntary code governing the advertising of cigarettes should be revised. The Government therefore undertook discussions wilh representatives of the cigarette manufacturing industry, media representatives and the Australian Broadcasting Control Board. The resultant revised code became effective on 1st October 1971, and is basically an attempt to move the emphasis of cigarette advertising on television and radio away from children. 4. and (10) The Government is guided in these matters by the advice of the National Health and Medical Research Council. The Council has recommended that cigarette packets should bear warning labels. The Government has indicated that when all State Governments have introduced legislation requiring such labels, similar legislation will be introduced in the Australian Capital Territory and Northern Territory. 5. This matter is one far my colleague, the Treasurer. {:#subdebate-57-35} #### Tuberculosis: Hospital Beds (Question No. 4690) {: #subdebate-57-35-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. For how many new additional beds has the Commonwealth reimbursed the States under the Tuberculosis Act 1948 (Hansard, 22nd September 1964, page 1400). 1. How many of these beds have- been released for non-tuberculosis patients. {: #subdebate-57-35-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. 2,399 beds. 1. 1,507 beds. {:#subdebate-57-36} #### Hospital Benefits Organisations: Operating Expenses (Question No. 3680) {: #subdebate-57-36-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What were the operating expenses of the hospital benefits organisations in 1970-71. 1. What percentage of contributions did these expenses represent. {: #subdebate-57-36-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The operating expenses of the hospital 1)onefits organisations during 1970-71 totalled $12,763,901. 1. These operating expenses were equivalent »o 9.2 per cent of the total amount of contributions received by the organisations during 1970-71. (Note: These figures are subject to confirmation.) {:#subdebate-57-37} #### Subsidised Health Insurance Scheme (Question No. 4136) {: #subdebate-57-37-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: (.1) On what date did the subsidised health insurance scheme for low income earners, migrants, etc., come into effect. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. What methods have been used to advertise the scheme. 1. How much has been spent on advertising the scheme. 2. In what ways have procedures of the scheme been simplified, as reported in the 'Age' of 12th March 1971. {: #subdebate-57-37-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Subsidised Health Benefits Plan commenced operation on 1st January 1970. As from 1st July 1970, the Plan was extended to provide graduated assistance with health insurance contributions to low income families whose weekly income slightly exceeds the eligibility limit for full assistance. 1. and (3) When the Plan was introduced, a special advertising campaign was carried out in January, February and March 1970. The campaign utilised major metropolitan and country newspapers and the foreign language press. There was also extensive radio advertising. The cost of this campaign was $43,000. In January 1970, 500,000 copies ot a pamphlet titled 'Subsidised Medical Services' were distributed to health insurance organisations, hospitals and doctors. In July 1970, 500,000 copies of a revised pamphlet containing details of the new income eligibility limits were distributed through the same channels. The cost of producing each issue of these pamphlets was approximately (2,000. In April 1971, 750,000 copies of a pamphlet titled 'Help with Health Insurance' were issued when income eligibility limits for assistance under the Plan were again revised. The cost of producing these pamphlets was $3,025. In addition to publicity directed solely at the Subsidised Health Benefits Plan, this assistance has been outlined in material publicising health benefits generally. In July and August 1970, an advertising campaign was carried out through Press, radio and television following the introduction of the new Health Benefits Plan. Details of the system of graduated eligibility for subsidised benefits were included in this 'campaign, the cost of which was $83,000. Similarly, during July and September 1970, 4,500,000 copies of a booklet titled 'A Guide to the Health Benefits Plan' were issued and 4.000.000 copies of a pamphlet titled 'Your Guide to Medical Insurance' were distributed. A prominent section on subsidised health benefits was included in both the booklet and the pamphlets. {: type="1" start="4"} 0. The entitlement certificates have been simplified, with the aim of explaining to the beneficiary, in as simple language as possible, how the assistance available under the plan may be obtained. A simplified application form has also been introduced, for use by low income families when applying for assistance. The new form may be completed and signed by a person other than the applicant, for example, the applicant's family doctor. In these cases, the entitlement certificate would be sent, not to the applicant himself, but to the person who assisted him by completing the application form. I have also instructed my Department to examine more effective ways of encouraging eligible persons to participate in the Plan, lt is envisaged that the examination will encompass wider use of social workers, charitable organisations and other appropriate welfare groups in the community. Civil Aviation: Qantas Boeing 747 Services (Question No. 3468) **Mr Lionel** Bowen asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the Government make any objection to the covenant in section 8 (d) of the agreement with the Boeing company and Eximbank for the purchase of four Boeing 747 aircraft. 1. Does the restrictive covenant in this agreement prevent Qantas from using these aircraft in many countries of the world. 2. Are the countries to which such a flight embargo applies determined by section 620 (f) of the Foreign Assistance Act 1961 of the United States of America. 3. Which countries are defined in this Act. 4. Can he say whether Pan-Am and other United States airlines operate to and from these defined counties; if so, what are these countries. 5. Can he say whether other airlines operate to and from these defined countries using United States manufactured aircraft, if so, what are the airlines and which countries do they operate to and from. {: #subdebate-57-37-s2 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. However, representations have been made to Eximbank seeking the omission of this covenant from future agreements for aircraft borrowings. 1. No. The covenant precludes the aircraft from being used principally in certain countries but does not prevent Qantas from flying these aircraft into 01 out of any country in the world. 2. Yes. However, in the light of the response to question (2), the term 'flight embargo' is clearly not appropriate in this context. 3. The countries defined in section 620 (f) of the Foreign Assistance Act 1961 of the United States are as follows: Peoples Republic of Albania, Peoples Republic of Bulgaria, Peoples Republic of China, . Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, German Democratic Republic (East Germany), Estonia, Hungarian Peoples Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, North Korean Peoples Republic, North Vietnam, Outer Mongolia - Mongolian Peoples Republic, Polish Peoples Republic, Rumanian Peoples Republic, Tibet, Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia, Cuba, and Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (including its captive constituent Republics). {: type="1" start="5"} 0. According to the latest available published information, Pan American Airways is the only United States airline currently operating scheduled airline services to and from any of the countries defined in paragraph (4) above. Countries defined in paragraph (4) above to and from which Pan American Airways currently operates services are as follows: Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, Rumanian Peoples Republic, Polish People's Republic, Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia, and Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. {: type="1" start="6"} 0. According to the latest available published information, airlines (other than United States airlines) operating scheduled airline services to and from countries defined in paragraph (4) above using United States manufactured aircraft, and the countries to and from which each airline operates, are as follows: {:#subdebate-57-38} #### Union Elections (Question No. 3553) {: #subdebate-57-38-s0 .speaker-2V4} ##### Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On which occasions has the Industrial Registrar granted a request by the committee, of management of a branch of an organisation for an election to be conducted under section 170 of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act for the election of delegates to represent that branch at an annual conference being the governing or rule making body of the organisation. 1. Are these delegates officers of (a) the branch or (b) the organisation. 2. On how many occasions has the Minister determined that portion of the expenses connected with the kind of election referred to in (1) above be borne by the Commonwealth in accordance with section 170A(6.) of the Act. {: #subdebate-57-38-s1 .speaker-KIM} ##### Mr Lynch:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (1), (2) and (3) Branch delegates on the governing or rule-making body of an organisation under the Conciliation and Arbitration Act are officers of the organisation. The Act does not authorise a branch committee of management to request that an election for an office in the organisation be conducted under section 170. Consequently, the Industrial Registrar cannot grant a request by a branch committee of management for the election of such delegates to be conducted under section 170 and there is no basis for the operation of section 170A(6) of the Act. {:#subdebate-57-39} #### Parliament House: Members' Accommodation (Question No. 4362) {: #subdebate-57-39-s0 .speaker-JOU} ##### Mr Bennett: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Will be take steps to direct each Minister who has the use of three rooms in Parliament House to make available one room for the use of private Members. 1. If not, will he consult with the Presiding Officers on the feasibility of providing prefabricated accommodation in the Parliamentary gardens. 2. Does the Government intend to proceed with the proposal for a new and permanent Parliament House; if so, when. 3. If not, what alternative proposals are intended to improve the accommodation available to private Members and Parliamentary staff. 4. How much longer can private Members expect to be required to remain three and two Members to a room. {: #subdebate-57-39-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. to (5) The difficult accommodation problem of which ali honourable members are aware will nol be solved simply by shifting the problem from one place to another. The Government has attempted to provide a partial answer in the extensions to Parliament House that are now under way. When these works were authorised the additional space that was to be provided enabled the then Presiding Officers to say that the reasonable accommodation requirements of Members and Senators would be met. The demands of the Parliament, however, are growing and some further attention to this pressing problem is clearly necessary. 1 am sure this is engaging the attention of the Presiding Officers. It is also a mailer which is kept under review by the Government. {:#subdebate-57-40} #### Commonwealth Scholarships (Question No. 4446) {: #subdebate-57-40-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: (.1) What was the value of all Commonwealth (a) secondary scholarships and (b) technical scholarships awarded in (i) each year and (ii) all years since each scheme was introduced._ *Oh-* {: type="1" start="2"} 0. What was the value of Commonwealth secondary scholarships allotted to students attending (a) Government (b) Catholic and (c) other private schools in (i) each year and (ii) all years since the scheme was introduced. 1. What (a) amount and (b) percentage was paid in (i) each year and (ii) all years to parents of holders of (A) secondary and (B) technical scholarships for (1) textbook and equipment allowance, (TI) living allowance and (III) fees. {: #subdebate-57-40-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Expenditure on (a) Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships and (b) Commonwealth Technical Scholarships each year 1964-65 to 1970-71: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. This information is available only for 1970- 71. In that year expenditure on secondary scholarship benefits was: {:#subdebate-57-41} #### Commonwealth Technical Scholarships (Question No. 44471, {: #subdebate-57-41-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: >What was the (a) number and (b) percentage of students who sat for Commonwealth- technical scholarships in - (0 each year and (ii) all years since the scheme was introduced in* the (A) Bendigo Technical College, (B) Kangaroo. Flat Technical School, (C) White Hills Technical School and (D) Castlemaine Technical School. {: #subdebate-57-41-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr MALCOLM FRASER:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >My Department does not maintain records of enrolments at individual schools or colleges. It does, however, have records of applicants for, and winners of, Commonwealth' Technical Scholarships for 1970 and- 1971 for the institutions you have listed. This information is set out in the- following table: Commonwealth Statutory Corporations - (Question No. 4473) **Mr Enderby** asked the Prime Minister, upon no:ice: >What are the names of all existing Commonwealth statutory corporations. > >Which of them operate outside the Budget. > >What are the names of all non-incorporated Commonwealth, statutory authorities, including such Australian Capital Territory authorities as the Canberra Building Review Committee. > >Which of these authorities operate outside the Budget. > >On what date was each corporation and authority, established. {: #subdebate-57-41-s2 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The extensive list which the Honourable Member has requested is not readily available because there appears to be little useful purpose in maintaining the information in this form. I am informed that in order to produce the detail for which he has asked, there would need to be an examination of every Commonwealth Act and Territory Ordinance and of the Regulations .made under those Acts and Ordinances. This would involve considerable time and expense and in the circumstances I am reluctant to authorise the research which would be involved. However, if the Honourable Member has any specific statutory bodies in mind on which he requires information then I will examine the matter and see what can be provided. {:#subdebate-57-42} #### Chinese Fabrics (Question No. 4640) {: #subdebate-57-42-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Customs and Excise, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been drawn to the statement in the newsletter 'So I'm Told', circulated under the name of John Burgess, Director. Textile Council of Australia, that fabrics being imported from China and purporting to be woollen piecegoods do not contain any wool at all but in fact, comprise 60 per cent viscose and 40 per cent polyamide 1. If so will he examine the correctness of the Customs declarations accompanying the samples and the duty charged. 2. If he has not seen the article, will he call for the newsletter, examine the charges and report to the Parliament the result of his examination. {: #subdebate-57-42-s1 .speaker-3V4} ##### Mr Chipp:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. I had not previously seen the newsletter mentioned, but a copy has been obtained and examined, particularly as to the textile sample card reproduced in the letter. The heading of the card is 'Wollen Piece Goods' but the composition stated in the body of the card is viscose 60 per cent and polyamide 40 per cent. I have ascertained that this card was one of a number forwarded from Mainland China to a Melbourne importer, all similarly headed but with varying compositions shown on the cards. Some samples were alleged to contain wool, others not. Customs analyses of the very small samples available have confirmed the actual composition as shown in the body of the cards. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The Customs Declaration accompanying the package of samples described the contents as Samples of Woollen Piece Goods'. As samples of negligible value, the package was released without payment of duty and most probably without examination. 1. lt has been ascertained that the company receiving the samples in question has not made any commercial importations as a result of these samples. However, an examination of entries made during the last twelve months for piece goods alleged to be of wool or containing wool, from Mainland China, has shown only four such importations, these from the exporter supplying the samples in question. Two of the importations were properly, invoiced as 45 per cent wool and 55 per cent polyester. Both were imported by manufacturers, who were fully aware of the composition. The other two importations were to Sydney over nine months ago. In these instances the shipments were invoiced as woollen piece goods but recent analysis has confirmed that each contained 52 per cent polyester and 48 per cent wool. This composition docs not alter the rate of duty paid. The piece goods were correctly marked and have been offered by the importer under the correct composition. I might add for the honourable member's information that opportunity is regularly taken to confirm the application of the required marking to piece goods. No such goods from Mainland China have been detected as unmarked or incorrectly marked in the past twelve months, lt is {: type="1" start="5"} 0. As at end October 1971: also a continuing function of the Department of Customs and Excise to ensure by, every means available, that the correct duty is paid upon all goods imported. {:#subdebate-57-43} #### Citizen Military Forces: Bendigo Unit (Question No. 4664) {: #subdebate-57-43-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In what year was the Citizen Military Forces unit located at Bendigo established. 1. In what ways and in what years has its structure changed since its inception. 2. What was the total strength of the unit in the first year and at each fifth and tenth year of each decade since its inception. 3. What is the (a) establishment and (b) strength of the unit for 1971. 4. What (a) number and (b) percentage of its strength are (i) regular servicemen and (ii) persons who have chosen the Citizen Military Forces as an alternative to National Service. 5. Do plans exist for new buildings, new facilities and a new location. 6. If so, when were the plans drawn up, and when will they be implemented. {: #subdebate-57-43-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Citizen Military Forces (CMF) unit located in Bendigo, 6th Company, Royal Australian Army Service Corps (RAASC), was originally raised in 1923 in Melbourne. It was relocated in Bendigo in 1962. 1. The structure of the unit has not basically changed since its location in Bendigo. 2. As at December 1962 the strength of 6 Coy RAASC was 4 Permanent Military Forces (PMF) and 125 CMF. 6 Coy RAASC Workshop also located at Bendigo, had a strength of 14 CMF. As at December 1967, the strength of 6 Coy RAASC was 3 PMF and 87 CMF. 6 Coy RAASC Wksp strength was 4 CMF. 3. At the end of October 197). the establishment and strength of both units was: {: type="1" start="6"} 0. A new CMF depot is planned for Bendigo, but at this -stage the implementation date is too far ahead for detailed plans and cost estimates to be available. It is probable that the new depot might be built on a new site in Bendigo. 1. The proposal is in the Army Accommodation Plan but having regard to higher priority requirements, and the likely availability of funds, it has not been included in the current 5 Year Rolling Programme. {:#subdebate-57-44} #### Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships (Question No. 4721) {: #subdebate-57-44-s0 .speaker-KFU} ##### Dr Gun: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: >What was the number of (a) applications for and (b) winners of Commonwealth secondary scholarships for the last 3 years from (i) Immanuel College, Novar Gardens, (ii) Sacred Heart College, Somerton Park, (iii) Woodlands Church of England Girls' Grammar School, Glenelg, (iv) Glengowrie High School, (v) Brighton Boys' Technical High School, (vi) Brighton High School, (vii) Marymount College, Seacombe Gardens, (viii) Dover Gardens Girls' Technical High School, (ix) Seacombe High School and (x) Christies Beach High School. {: #subdebate-57-44-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The information requested is set out in the following table: {:#subdebate-57-45} #### Conference on Drug Trafficking (Question No. 4794) {: #subdebate-57-45-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Customs and Excise, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. From which countries did delegates come lo the Regional Conference on Drug Trafficking in Canberra between 22 and 25 November 1971 and what positions did the delegates hold in their countries. 1. What requests or suggestions made at the conference will require (a) international action, (b) Commonwealth action and (c) State action. {: #subdebate-57-45-s1 .speaker-3V4} ##### Mr Chipp:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. The Delegation List for trie conference was as follows: {: .page-start } page 4552 {:#debate-58} ### DELEGATES Australia **Mr A.** T. Carmody, C.B.E.. Comptroller-General of Customs. **Mr H.** Bates, M.B.E., Director, Commonwealth Bureau of Narcotics. **Mr D.** Scullion, Assistant Director, Overseas Liaison and Enforcement, Commonwealth Bureau of Narcotics. Hong Kong The Honourable D. C. Luddington. Secretary for Home Affairs. **Mr G.** R. Dunning, Senior Superintendent of Police, Narcotics Bureau. **Mr E.** I. Lee, Deputy Director, Department of Commerce and Industry (Preventive Service). India **Mr B.** S. Chawla. Narcotics Commissioner. **Mr B.** V. Kumar. Deputy Director, Enforcement Directorate, Cabinet Secretariat, Madras. Indonesia Police Colonel T. Ibrahim Soeriaamidjaja, Director, C.I.D. Indonesia. Police **Colonel Dr R.** Wahjudi, B.S., Secretary, N.C.B. Indonesia (Interpol). The Khmer Republic **Mr Chheav** Kim Suon, Commissaire Principal de Police. **Mr Pan** Pao, Third Secretary, Embassy of the Khmer Republic, Canberra. Laos i Phagna Nith Singharaj, Chairman, InterMinisterial Commission for Repression of Illegal Drug Trafficking. Police Commissioner Sourthone Sundara, Chief of Bureau of Narcotics. Malaysia Superintendent Mohd Shahir Bin Abdul Majid, Police Secretary. Nev Zealand Detective Chief Inspector M. T. Churches, Acting National Head, Criminal Investigation Branch, New Zealand Police. **Mr** M. T. Leech, Assistant Comptroller of Customs. Pakistan **Mr Asrar** Husain, Secretary, Pakistan Narcotics Board. **Mr Zia** Chowdhury, Second Secretary, Pakistan High Commission, Canberra. Philippines **Mr Jolly** R. Bugarin, Director, National Bureau of Investigation. Brigadier General Eduardo M. Garcia, Acting Chief of Philippine Constabulary. **Mr Rolando** G. Geotina, Acting Commissioner, Bureau ' of Customs. **Mr Jose** F. de los Reyes, Deputy Director, National Bureau of Investigation. Singapore **Mr J.** Hanam, Director, Central Narcotics Intelligence Bureau. Thailand Police Colonel Smith Boonlikit, Chief of Foreign Affairs Division, Central Bureau of Narcotics. Police Colonel Pramual Vanigbandhu, Superin1tendent, Crime Suppression Division, Police Department. Vietnam His Excellency Le Van Thu, Minister of Justice. Vice Admiral Chung Tan Cang, Special Assistant to the Prime Minister. **Colonel Cao** Van Khanh, Director-General of Customs. **Mr Pham** Kim Qui, Assistant Commander of National Police. **Mr Thai-Khac-Ngon,** Chief of the National Service of Pharmacy. **Mr Le** The Xuong, Second Secretary, Embassy of the Republic of Vietnam, Canberra. **Mr Dang** Le Sang, Private Secretary to Minister of Justice. {: .page-start } page 4553 {:#debate-59} ### OBSERVERS Interpol **Mr J.** Nepote, Secretary-General. Territory of Papua and New Guinea **Mr B.** J. Holloway, Deputy Commissioner of Police. **Mr J.** Baldwin, Inspector of Customs. United Nations Division of Narcotics **Mr F.** A. Bauman, U.N.D.P. Resident Representative, Sydney. United Slates of America **Mr H.** G. Appling, Deputy Chief of Mission, United States Embassy, Canberra. **Mr George** M. Belk, Assistant Director for Interantional Affairs, Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs. **Mr John** A. Lund Jr, Director, Criminal Investigation Division, Bureau of Customs, Departments of the Treasury. **Mr Albert** V. Nyren, Counsellor for Economic Affairs, United States Embassy, Canberra. **Mr William** T. Wanzeck, Director, Bangkok Regional Office, Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs. The conference also suggested that there should be a meeting of Ministers to provide further impetus to regional co-operation in the suppression of illicit drug trafficking. International action is required in respect of resolutions (c)-(g) and the suggestion regarding a meeting of Ministers. Commonwealth and State action ls required in respect of resolutions (d) and (e). Action is nol required in respect of resolutions (a) and (b) as such an office already exists in Australia and this co-operates within the framework of the Interpol Organisation. {:#subdebate-59-0} #### Army: Enlistments and Service (Question No. 4813) {: #subdebate-59-0-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many men enlisted in (a) the first AIF and (b) the second AIF. 1. How many saw active service overseas in each case. 2. Of those who saw active service overseas, bow many were married at the time of enlistment. {: #subdebate-59-0-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Statistics held show that 416,809 men and women enlisted in the first AIF. A total of 727,703 enlisted in the second AIF. 1. The number who served overseas in the first AIF was 331,781 and in the second AIF was 396,661. 2. No statistics are held on the marital status of those enlisted and to obtain these statistics would involve a manual search of well over a million service dossiers. Industrial Relations (Question No. 3S42) {: #subdebate-59-0-s2 .speaker-2V4} ##### Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has he considered the suggestion made by the Industrial Registrar, **Dr Ian** Sharp, that a commission of inquiry constituted on a CommonwealthState basis and including management, unions, lawyers, economists, academics and representatives of both Commonwealth and State Governments be instituted to consider such matters as trade union law, over-award payments, penal sanctions, the need for constitutional amendments and other problems that have arisen in recent years. 1. If so, what action does the Government propose to take in the matter. {: #subdebate-59-0-s3 .speaker-KIM} ##### Mr Lynch:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) The Government considered this suggestion in connection with its general review of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act. Although that review did not entail the formal trappings of a commission of inquiry, there was available to the Government a broad spectrum of views as to what changes should be made to the Act. Also, in my statement to the House on December 7 on the outcome of that review, I said that the Government was taking the opportunity to outline its proposals to the entire community to enable responsible consideration to be given to «hat is intended by the Government. Australian Army: Expenditure . on Recruitment Activities (Question No. 3613) {: #subdebate-59-0-s4 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: What amount was spent on Army recruiting in 1969-70 and 1970-71 (Hansard, 19th August 1970, page 215). {: #subdebate-59-0-s5 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {:#subdebate-59-1} #### Industrial Relations (Question Nu. 3954) {: #subdebate-59-1-s0 .speaker-2V4} ##### Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been drawn to a paper published in March 1971 in the Journal of Industrial Relations, Sydney, by **Mr Ian** Macphee, then of the New South Wales Chamber of Manufactures and now of the Victorian Chamber of Manufactures, condemning those who believe that the ACTU **President, Mr R.** J. Hawke, is responsible for the present industrial turbulence and stating that those who see **Mr Hawke** as a bogyman are becoming engaged in an exercise of self-delusion. 1. If so, did he also note that **Mr Macphee** made the plea that the Government must resist the temptation to turn the bar table into an election platform. {: #subdebate-59-1-s1 .speaker-KIM} ##### Mr Lynch:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) I have noted the article referred to by the honourable member. The facts are that in 1970 industrial stoppages of ten days or more, workers involved and working days and wages lost in those stoppages were 36 per cent, 6.4 per cent, 22 per cent and 34 per cent respectively higher than in 1969. Preliminary statistics show that working days and wages lost in the first nine months of this year, 2,612,700 and $38,804,200 respectively, exceed the total for the whole of 1970. These facts speak for themselves. {:#subdebate-59-2} #### Social Services: Reciprocal Agreements (Question No. 4145) {: #subdebate-59-2-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. With which countries other than Malta (Hansard, 22nd September 1970, page 1497, and 10th September 1971, page 1147) have discussions been held on a reciprocal social services agreement. 1. When were discussions first held with Malta and each other country. {: #subdebate-59-2-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) Within the past five years there have been discussions relating to the possibility of reciprocity in social security with representatives of the countries listed below. The date on which these discussions were commenced is also shown: July 1967 - Yugoslavia May 1967- Italy January 1968- Malta May 1968 - Federal Republic of Germany March 1970- Turkey. In day to day discussions with other countries on immigration matters it is not unusual for passing reference to be made to social security. In general, such references have arisen from a desire on the part of the countries concerned to keep in touch with changes in social security provisions. {:#subdebate-59-3} #### Australian Industries: Production Costs (Question No. 4247) {: #subdebate-59-3-s0 .speaker-JSU} ##### Mr Bryant: asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: >What Australian industries, primary and secondary, have lower production costs than any other major producer. {: #subdebate-59-3-s1 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >A comparative study which would establish which Australian primary and secondary industries have lower production costs than any other producer has not been undertaken. Such a study would be a task of considerable magnitude requiring extensive research. {:#subdebate-59-4} #### Australian Paper Industry (Question No, 4440) {: #subdebate-59-4-s0 .speaker-JWU} ##### Mr ALLAN FRASER:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: >In view of the very difficult position facing Australian paper manufacturers, and particularly in view of the situation at Wiggins Teape Shoalhaven Pty Ltd paper mill at Bomaderry, will the Government direct that, where private contracts are let for Government printing work, the contract specifies that paper produced in Australia must be used. {: #subdebate-59-4-s1 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The long-standing policy on Commonwealth Government purchasing is that, where overseas goods are in competition with local supplies, ordering authorities are required to add the cost of freight and insurance, and the appropriate amount of any duties and primage which would apply if the goods were being imported commercially. In this way, Australian manufacturers are afforded the protection to which they are normally entitled under the Tariff. (The Australian paper industry is accorded protection under the Tariff.) Exceptions may be made, and higher priced Australian goods favoured, such as when the goods are of strategic importance or the industry is depressed. Consistent with this policy, special consideration may be given to the use of Australian-made paper in private contracts for Government printing work. {:#subdebate-59-5} #### Brandy (Question No. 4583) {: #subdebate-59-5-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Have brandy imports into Australia since June 1968 exceeded 800,000 proof gallons representing a loss lo Australian growers of $1.3m. 1. Is the Australian taxpayer subsidising overseas grape growers to the extent of $3 per gallon. 2. Has the quantity of brandy held in bond increased from 4.2 million gallons in June 1970 to S.8 million gallons in 1971; if so, is this situation a threat to the Australian wine grape industry. 3. Has he ordered a tariff inquiry into the 15 per cent of the Australian brandy market which is represented by imports. 4. If so, when will the inquiry commence and when can the report be expected. {: #subdebate-59-5-s1 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Imports of brandy in the financial years 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71 totalled 665,925 proof gallons. Most imports were in bulk at strengths exceeding proof. 1. The excise duty on brandy is $8.00 per proof gallon. The customs duty on most imported brandy is $8.50 per proof gallon. Accordingly, the Australian industry has protection through the Tariff at a level of $0.50 per proof gallon. There are no subsidies or import restrictions applicable to brandy. (3), (4) and - (5) Stocks of Australian grape brandy held in bond increased from 5.3 million gallons at 30th June 1970 to 5.8 million gallons at 30th June 1971. On 13th October 1971, the Tariff Board was asked to inquire into the question of assistance to the Australian brandy industry. It can be expected that the Board will receive evidence on both the build up of stocks and the level of imports of brandy. The questions of whether the stock and import situations present a threat to the Australian wine grape industry are issues on which it would be appropriate for the Tariff Board to furnish advice. The Tariff Board has not as yet announced the date of commencement of its public inquiry and I am unable, at this stage, to forecast when the Board's report may be expected. Butter Fat and Vegetable Oils: Market in Japan (Question No. 4584) {: #subdebate-59-5-s2 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his Department made an assessment of the extent of the market for a combined butterfatvegetable oil spread in Japan. 1. Can he say whether New Zealand already has exported successfully 100 tons of this combination. 2. Have any Australian initiatives been taken; if so, when. 3. If no initiatives have been taken, when can they he expected in view of New Zealand enterprise. {: #subdebate-59-5-s3 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Department of Trade and Industry is aware of a potential market in Japan for products made from a combination of butter fat and vegetable oils. Japanese authorities have indicated their concern at the possible inflow of large quantities of such products. It would therefore appear that the actual size of the market in Japan for these products will be determined by other than purely commercial factors and it is therefore impossible to estimate the size of the market at this time with any degree of accuracy. 1. I understand that New Zealand has prepared some samples of these products, but I am not aware of any commercial shipments made to Japan by New Zealand. 2. The possible export to Japan of a combined butter fat/vegetable oil mixture described as shortenings for use in the manufacture of foodstuffs has been the subject of discussions between the Australian Dairy Produce Board and commercial interests. The Department of Trade has arranged a series of Food Missions to Japan over the past 12 months. These Missions consisted of leading Australian food processors, some of whom have closely examined the Japanese market potential for these products. 3. See (3) above. {:#subdebate-59-6} #### Nursing Homes (Question No. 4600) {: #subdebate-59-6-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can he say what proportion of a pension is taken for care and accommodation by nursing homes run by (a) State government authorities, (b) charitable and voluntary bodies and (c) private enterprise in each State and Territory. 1. Will he provide an account of charges imposed on pensioners in public nursing homes in each State and Territory for purposes other than hospital and medical care and accommodation. 2. Will he direct his Department to undertake a sample survey of the income left to pensioners in private nursing homes after they have paid for care and accommodation; if so. will he publish the results of this survey. {: #subdebate-59-6-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. (2) and (3) Information in the detail required by the honourable member's question is not available. However, the table below compiled by the Department of Health, shows the average weekly fees which pensioner patients in nursing homes were charged during June 1971, as revealed by a survey of all nursing homes in all States. It should be noted that the Commonwealth nursing home benefit, which is additional to any pension entitlement, was increased to the equivalent of $45.50 a week for intensive care patients and $24.50 for ordinary care patients (an increase of $10.50 a week in each case) with effect from 21st October 1971. {:#subdebate-59-7} #### Imports of Fruit Juice (Question No. 4651) {: #subdebate-59-7-s0 .speaker-NF4} ##### Mr Cohen: asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: >What was the breakdown of the fruit juice imports of 438,133 gallons referred to in his answer to question No. 4290 on 2nd November 1971 (Hansard, page 2878). {: #subdebate-59-7-s1 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: > Official statistics do not provide any further breakdown of this figure. However, it is understood that the bulk of these imports consisted of grapefruit juice. {:#subdebate-59-8} #### Shipbuilding: Tariff Board Report (Question No. 4713) {: #subdebate-59-8-s0 .speaker-KGH} ##### Mr Hansen: asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: >When does he expect to present to the Parliament the Tariff Board Report on Shipbuilding? {: #subdebate-59-8-s1 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Tariff Board report on the Australian shipbuilding industry was forwarded to me by the Chairman of the Board on 12lh July 1971. The Government will release the report with the minimum of delay, consistent with a full and careful study of all aspects of the Board's findings. {:#subdebate-59-9} #### Decentralisation {: #subdebate-59-9-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did he' tell the National Press Club in Canberra on 1st November 1971 that the delay in the work of the Federal-States officials' committee on decentralisation established 6 years ago, which has yet to produce a definitive report, was not all the fault of the Commonwealth. 1. Did he blame the relaxed attitude of some of the State governments for the delay. 2. If so, which State governments are at fault and what have they failed to do. {: #subdebate-59-9-s1 .speaker-BU4} ##### Mr Anthony:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (1), (2) and (3) My remarks were in general terms, having in mind the time it has taken to complete the range of studies being co-ordinated by the Committee, some of which were carried out by the Commonwealth and some by the States. Details of these studies were given to the honourable member in answer to Question No. 3117 (Hansard, 6th May 1971, page 2866). I would point out however, that on the occasion referred to by the honourable member I went on to state: 'I think there have been difficulties in having common interests, as to how they ought to pursue decentralisation, and I am sure that in the future we are going to see more activity'. Handicapped Persons: Interdepartmental Committee (Question No. 4758) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On what dates have reports been made by the interdepartmental committee established to make a survey of handicapped children and the facilities available for their use (Hansard, 28th September 1971, page 1602, and 11th November 1971, page 3440). 1. When will the reports be presented to the House. 2. What consideration has his Department given to the recommendation on physically and mentally handicapped persons by the Senate Select Committee on Medical and Hospital Costs in its report tabled on 2nd June and by the Senate Standing Committee on Mentally and Physically Handicapped Persons in its report tabled on Sth May 1971 (Hansard, 7th September 1971, page 887 and 28th October 1971, page 2792). {: #subdebate-59-9-s2 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) As indicated in my reply to Question No. 3718 asked by the honourable member (Hansard, 28th September 1971, page 1602) it is not the policy of the Government lo give information on these matters which concern advice to Ministers and arrangements between Ministers and their advisers. Similarly it is not the practice to publish reports prepared for the information of Cabinet. 1. An interdepartmental committee has been established to examine in detail the recommendations made by the Senate Standing Committee on Health and Welfare in its Report on Mentally and Physically Handicapped Persons in Australia. This examination will encompass the more general recommendation on the physically and mentally handicapped made by the Senate Select Committee on Medical and Hospital Costs. I also refer the Honourable Member to the reply given by the Minister for Health on 23rd November 1971 (see Senate Hansard at page 1960). {:#subdebate-59-10} #### Superannuation (Question No. 4778) {: #subdebate-59-10-s0 .speaker-KFB} ##### Mr Fitzpatrick:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: >As a result of the recent amendment to the Superannuation Act, what was the number of (a) age, invalid and widow pensioners in the Commonwealth whose pensions were reduced as a result of the superannuation increases, (b) cases where his Department cancelled the medical benefits entitlements and (c) pensioners whose pensions were cancelled. {: #subdebate-59-10-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Precise figures are not available but it is estimated that the effect of the recent increases provided under the Superannuation Act and the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Act in each of the categories mentioned, was as follows: (a) 9,100, (b) 1,100, (c) 1,200. {:#subdebate-59-11} #### Pensioners: Transport Concessions (Question No. 480 1) {: #subdebate-59-11-s0 .speaker-KXI} ##### Mr Webb: asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can he say what transport concessions arc available lo pensioners in each State. 1. Can he ako say whether transport concessions are available lo pensioners travelling interstate. 2. II interstate concessions are not available, will he arrange for a concession to be made available to pensioners travelling on the Commonwealth Railways. {: #subdebate-59-11-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable members question is as follows: >The granting of these concessions is not within my administration. However, 1 am advised that transport concessions as listed hereunder are, where not otherwise staled, available to age, invalid and widow pensioners who would be entitled to pension under the means test operating prior to 27th September 1969. > >(1) > >New South Wales - half fare on trains, Government buses and ferries, and concessional fares on some privately operated bus services. > >Victoria - half fare on Government buses and trams and approximately half fare on trains. > >Queensland - half fare between any 2 stations and a free return train journey once a year between any 2 stations in the State. Half fares apply to maximum rate pensioners who are residents of Brisbane for travel on council buses in the Brisbane City area. Pensioners may travel at half fare on Council buses in the Rockhampton district. > >South Australia - fares approximating child rates apply to travel on trains, trams and Government buses and on authorised privately operated bus services. > >Western Australia - free train and bus travel in the metropolitan area and free transport on ferries; train journeys in country areas at half fare. Travel on private buses, in Albany, Kalgoorlie and Northam is free to eligible pensioners. > >Tasmania - pensioners may travel on trains between Hobart and Montrose for 7c or Brighton for 13c; half fares apply for other journeys. A flat-rate of 4c per journey is payable on Government buses. Concessions also apply on certain privately operated bus services. > >Commonwealth Railways - half fare concessions available on intra-state journeys. (2) Half fare concessions are available to eligible pensioners travelling by train between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Similar concessions are available from the Commonwealth Railways for travel between Perth, Port Pirie and Alice Springs. It is understood that concessional fares for interstate travel are not available in respect of sleeping berths. Eligible pensioners may travel between Tasmania and the mainland on Australian National Line ships at concessional rates. Interstate concessions are generally available only at certain times of the year. Certain private bus companies also offer concessional fares to pensioners for interstate travel. (3) See answer (2) above. {:#subdebate-59-12} #### Pensions (Question No. 4802) {: #subdebate-59-12-s0 .speaker-KXI} ##### Mr Webb: asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many persons of pensionable age (a) receive a part pension and (b) do not receive a pension. 1. What would be the cost of providing a full pension for (a) all men over the age of 63 and all women over the age of 60 and (b) all men over the age of 70 and all women over the age of 65. {: #subdebate-59-12-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. lt is estimated that .of the total number of persons qualified by residence for an age pension, about 190,000 receive a part pension and about 440.000 do not receive a pension. 1. lt is estimated that the additional annual cost of providing a full age pension to residential^ qualified persons in each of the categories mentioned would bc of the order of - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. S440m. 1. $22()m. {:#subdebate-59-13} #### Aged Persons Homes (Question No. 4808) {: #subdebate-59-13-s0 .speaker-AV4} ##### Mr Hurford: asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What is the average cost in each Suite of a one-bedroom unit built, with assistance under the Aged Persons Homes Act, since 1st July 1971. 1. What was the average assistance given per unit under the Act in each State during the same period. 2. ls it a fact that in most cases individual senior citizens must donate the difference to the association providing the unit. 3. ls it also a fact that his Department will allow pensioners, who make such donations to associations for one-bedroom units built with assistance received under the Act, to relate only $2,500 of the donation to housing and thus include any donation over $2,500 in the means as assessed of the pensioner when calculating the pension. 4. If so, in view of the unreasonableness of the figure of $2,500 in relation to the amount the pensioner is obliged to donate, will the Government consider increasing this amount. {: #subdebate-59-13-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) In grants approved under the Aged Person Homes Act since 1st July 1971 the average provisional capital cost (excluding expenditure on furniture) and the estimated average Commonwealth subsidy for each aged person accommodated, for each Sate, are shown in the following table: 1. No. Of the organisations' funds used to attract Commonwealth subsidy since 1st July 1971, less than one-third was derived by donations from prospective residents. 2. and (5) In the case of a single person the limit of donation disregarded for pension purposes, excluding expenditure on furniture, is $2,500. The limit of the Commonwealth grant for single person accommodation is $4,800 which, together with the amount of $2,500 produces a total of $7,300 which should cover 'he cost of providing accommodation for one person. Department of Social Services: Social Workers (Question No. 4855) **Mr Barnard** asked the Minister for Social services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many social workers are employed by his Department other than in capital cities. 1. Al which centres are they employed and how many arc employed al each. 2. How many social workers are employed by his Department in capital cities. {: #subdebate-59-13-s2 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr WENTWORTH:
MACKELLAR, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; IND LIB from Oct 1977 -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Six (6) social workers are presently employed by the Department of Social Services, other than in capital cities. 1. The centres al which they are employed, and the number employed at each, are as follows: {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Sixty-nine (69) social workers are employed by the Department in capital cities. In addition to providing a service to local residents, these officers undertake visits, as required, to those country areas which are without the services of a resident Social Worker. For example, during the month of October the equivalent of 78 working days was spent in country areas by capital city based social workers. {:#subdebate-59-14} #### Handicapped Persons (Question No. 3719) {: #subdebate-59-14-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Social Services, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did he request **Mr J.** Griffith of Perth to prepare a report in which recommendations were made on possible future trends in governmental participation in the provision of adequate facilities for the mentally and physically handicapped. 1. If so, when did he request and receive the report and is it proposed, as with bis Department's surveys of the characteristics and housing of pensioners (Hansard, 9th March 1971, page 750 and 31 March 1971, page 1280), to make the results available. {: #subdebate-59-14-s1 .speaker-DB6} ##### Mr Wentworth:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. With my approval **Mr Griffith** was invited to accept an appointment as a consultant to the Department for the purpose of reporting upon services, facilities and assistance provided for the rehabilitation of physically and mentally handicapped persons. 1. The invitation to **Mr Griffith** was issued in May 1969 and the Department received his report in February 1970. It is not the policy of the Government to give information on matters which concern the advice to Ministers and arrangements between Ministers and their advisors. {:#subdebate-59-15} #### Housing Loans (Question No. 3855) {: #subdebate-59-15-s0 .speaker-EE4} ##### Mr Uren: asked the Minister for Housing, upon notice: Can he provide statistics showing the - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. percentage of borrowers who obtained a housing loan from savings banks and who had to seek a second mortgage; 1. average loan on a second mortgage; and 2. average rate of interest paid by the borrowers on second mortgages since 1 July 1970. {: #subdebate-59-15-s1 .speaker-JTS} ##### Mr Kevin Cairns:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Comprehensive statistics necessary for the preparation of a reply to these questions are not available. Canberra: Crown Lease at Braddon (Question No. 4679) **Mr Enderby** asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. When was a crown lease for Block, 41, Section 4, Braddon, Australian Capital Territory, first issued? 1. What was the unimproved value of the block at the time of issue? 2. On what dates since has the block been revalued, and what has been the unimproved value on each occasion? 3. Can he say whether the residential land in the neighbourhood has become less attractive and less valuable for residential purposes since the construction of shops in Lowanna Street and Northbourne Avenue?; 4. Since the first valuation, has the value of the block increased by approximately 465 per cent? 5. If so, what caused this increase in value? {: #subdebate-59-15-s2 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. nth July 1962. 1. $860. ' 2. Revaluations were made pursuant to the provisions of the Rates Ordinance in 1967 and 1971. The unimproved value placed on the land was $1,370 and $4,000 respectively. The lessee has lodged an appeal against the valuation of $4,000. This appeal will be heard by the Valuation Review Board set up under the Rates Ordinance. 3. and (5) See answer to (2) and (3) above. (6) The effluxion of time and the growth of Canberra. t Social Welfare Claims and Payments (Question No. 4748) **Mr Enderby** asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In relation to his answer to Question No. 4120 (Hansard, 2nd November 1971, pages 2880-1) regarding social welfare claims received and payments made in Canberra during the last 5 years, was the increase in the number of claims received between 1966-67 and 1970-71 attributable to the increase in population during the period or was it due to other reasons. 1. If it was due to other reasons, what were they. 2. What was the percentage increase in total payments between the years 1966-67 and 1970-71, and what were the reasons for the large increase. 3. Were any of the total amounts paid between the years 1966-67 and 1970-71 used for the alleviation of financial hardship in respect of high rents, overcrowding, inability to find suitable housing, unmarried mothers having to seek private accommodation and inability to maintain hire purchase payments and payments on motor cars which were given as some of the most common reasons by persons applying for distress housing in Canberra as indicated in his answer to Question No. 4408 (Hansard, 2nd November 1971, pages 2889-90). 4. If so, what sum was spent for each of these reasons. 5. Can he give details of how the sum of $53,226 paid out as Welfare benefits in Canberra in 1970-71 was spent. {: #subdebate-59-15-s3 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) The number of claims for Social Welfare Benefits received in the Australian Capital Territory in 1970-71 (1,749) as compared with 1966-67 (1,352) had increased by 29.4 per cent. During the same period the mean population of the Territory increased by 37.6 per cent. It might be assumed, therefore, that the increase in the number of claims for benefit was attributable to population increase. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The increase in total Social Welfare Benefit payments between 1966-67 ($16,466) and 1970-71 ($53,226) amounted to 223.3 per cent. As well as accounting for the higher number of benefits paid in each succeeding year, the increases in the annual amounts paid were due to various upward adjustments in the scale of benefits. In 1966 a typical recipient, a deserted wife with dependent children, received cash assistance at the rate of $26.50 per fortnight irrespective of the number of children. From July 1968 the benefit scale was aligned with the rates of pensions and benefits paid by the Department of Social Services. In June 1971 the benefit rate in respect of, for example, a deserted wife with four children and no other income was $70.00 per fortnight. 1. and (5) Social Welfare Benefits are intended primarily to help people awaiting statutory aid, such as deserted wives with children, or persons who are unable to qualify for Commonwealth pensions or benefits and for various reasons cannot support themselves and their families. The payments are meant to meet subsistence! needs and are not specifically designed to cover costs such as those incurred through high rents, hire purchase payments, etc. 2. The total amount of $53,226 paid in Social Welfare Benefits in the Australian Capital Territory in 1970-71 was distributed as follows: {:#subdebate-59-16} #### Aborigines: Housing in Northern Territory (Question No. 4498) {: #subdebate-59-16-s0 .speaker-009DB} ##### Mr Morrison: asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many houses for Aborigines have been constructed by the Northern Territory Administration (a) on settlements, (b) on missions and (c) elsewhere for each of the years 1967-68, 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-717 1. What was the total expenditure on Aboriginal housing within the categories mentioned for each of those years? 2. How many houses are planned in each of these categories for 1971-72, and what is the estimated cost? {: #subdebate-59-16-s1 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The number of houses either constructed by the N.T.A. or by Missions using funds supplied through votes of the Department of the Interior. In addition 23 houses were built during 1969-70 and 1970-71 by the Progress Association at Maningrida using timber provided free* of cost by the Government A number of houses also were enlarged and improved under the programme to up-grade the standard of existing houses as people acquire better home management skills. (Does not include assistance from the Aborigines Benefits Trust Fund to housing societies of $50,000 in 1967-70 and $20,000 in 1970-71.) In addition, grants to housing societies totalling $82,250 have been approved for expenditure from the Aborigines Benefits Trust Fund in 1971-72. {:#subdebate-59-17} #### Public Service: Transfers to Canberra (Question No. 4765) {: #subdebate-59-17-s0 .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr Calwell: asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many officers ' are now listed 'for transfer from (a) Melbourne and (b) Sydney when the Government resumes its programme of transfers of Commonwealth departments to Canberra. 1. What departments and instrumentalities are on the transfer list. {: #subdebate-59-17-s1 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the right honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) Phase III of the transfer programme was outlined in the Public Service Board's Annual Report for 1970. Details of the situation following deferment of Phase III were given in the Board's Annual Report for 1971 (page 64). On 2nd November 1971 I informed' the right honourable member that the question of the resumption of the transfer of Commonwealth departments to Canberra was under consideration. No decision has yet been made on the resumption of the transfer programme. {:#subdebate-59-18} #### Population of Electorates (Question No. 4567) {: #subdebate-59-18-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What are the preliminary totals of population from the June 1971 .Census for each State, Territory and electoral division (Hansard, 28th August 1970, page 744). 1. What factors, if any, would prevent a redistribution of electoral divisions being carried out by the following May, as occurred after the June 1954 Census. 2. What was the enrolment in each State, Territory and division in June 1971. 3. Is he able to say which of the States have extended the franchise to 18, 19 and 20 year old citizens and how long did it take each Stale to enrol those citizens (Hansard, 21st August 1970, page 374). {: #subdebate-59-18-s1 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question' is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. See Table below. 1. While preliminary population - figures based on the field count have been issued by the Acting Commonwealth Statistician,' the numbers of the people of the Commonwealth and the several States as at the Census taken on 30th June 1971 are not yet available from' Commonwealth Statistician. Until the Chief Electoral Officer has ascertained the numbers of the people in accordance with the Representation Act, he cannot determine the number of members of the House of Representatives to be chosen in the several States. The 1965 amendments of the Commonwealth Electoral Act specified additional, steps which must be taken by the Distribution. Commissioners and provides for an additional 30 days period for the lodgment of suggestions and an additional 14 days period for the lodgment of comments relating to the suggestions. The appointment of Distribution Commissioners, the carrying out of the Commissioners functions, the preparation of the reports relating to a proposed distribution of a State and the passage of resolutions by Parliament are factors which could prevent a redistribution being effected before May 1972. Following a redistribution, the electoral rolls must be reprinted in respect of those Subdivisions and Divisions where the boundaries have been altered. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. See Table below. 1. Western Australia is the only State in which 18, 19 and 20 year old citizens are entitled lo enrol. The 18 years of age franchise provisions are not yet operative in New South Wales or South Australia. The period taken to enrol 18. 19 and 20 year old citizens for State purposes in Western Australia is unknown. The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has advised that preliminary totals of the population of each State, Territory and Electoral Division derived from the 1971 Census are as given in the above table. As the boundaries *of* census collection areas do not in all cases follow, electoral division boundaries, a small degree of approximation is required to compile these figures. Gove-Groote Eylandt Area: Resident Magistrate (Question No. 4497) **Mr Morrison** asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: >When will a resident magistrate be appointed to the Gove-Groote Eylandt area. {: #subdebate-59-18-s2 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP en - The AttorneyGeneral has supplied the following answer to the honourable member's question: >The question whether there is a need for an additional magistrate in the Northern Territory is under consideration in my Department. {:#subdebate-59-19} #### Victorian Police Files (Question No. 4274) {: #subdebate-59-19-s0 .speaker-SH4} ##### Dr Klugman:
PROSPECT, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the Minister's attention been drawn to reported evidence by Detective Robert Maskiell of the Victorian Police Force Special Branch that this Branch kept files on at least 250,000 people. 1. If so, did Detective Maskiell also claim that these people were aliens or people who come under notice through offences. 2. Has the Commonwealth Government asked the Victorian Police Force Special Branch to keep files on aliens; if so, why. {: #subdebate-59-19-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The AttorneyGeneral have provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) I am aware that statements of this kind were made. I have not seen a transcript of the evidence given by Detective Maskiell. 1. No. Australian Capital Territory Laws: Consolidation (Question No. 4677) **Mr Enderby** asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. ls it a fact that a consolidation of the laws of the Australian Capital Territory has not been published since January I960. 1. If so, how many ordinances that relate to the Australian Capital Territory have been enacted since that date. 2. Can the Attorney-General say whether the delay in the publication of a consolidation results in wasted time, wasted work and increased legal costs. 3. When will an up-to-date consolidation of the laws of the AustralianfCapital Territory ye published. {: #subdebate-59-19-s2 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP en - The AttorneyGeneral has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The In*! bound general reprint of the Laws of the Australian Capital Territory was published as at 1st January I960. However, reprints in pamphlet form incorporating all amendments to the date of reprinting have been issued from time to time for most Ordinances and Regulations of the Territory in common use. Nine reprints have been published so far ,his year and the total number available is abou; 120. 1. 311 (to 30th June 1971). 2. No. 3. Any further general reprint of the Laws of the Australian Capital Territory is a matter for determination between the Minister for the Interior and the Attorney-General. Judiciary Act: Examination by Committee (Question No. 4513) {: #subdebate-59-19-s3 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On what dates since 18th September 1969 (Hansard, 26th September 1969, page 2140) have there been meetings of the committee appointed in September 1968 to consider the provisions of the Judiciary Act (Hansard, 22nd October 1968, page 2217, 24th October 1968, page 2392, 25th February 1969, pages 66 and 107, 26th September 1969, page 2140 and 16th September 1970. page 1250). 1. When is the committee now expected to report. {: #subdebate-59-19-s4 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP en - The AttorneyGeneral has supplied the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Judiciary Act Review Committee has met on the following dates since 18th September 1969- 24th March 1970, 18th May 1970, 23rd June 1970, 30th June 1970, 2nd September !970, 16th September 1970, 10th November 1970, 9th December 1970, 17 December 1970, 2nd February 1971, 19th February 1971, 11th March 1971, 30th September 1971, 10th November 1971. 1. The matter is a complex, one. The Committee hopes, however, that its report will be ready by the end of 1972. {:#subdebate-59-20} #### Australian Authors (Question No. 4742) {: #subdebate-59-20-s0 .speaker-K9M} ##### Mr Les Johnson:
HUGHES, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the Government received a proposal from the Australian Society of Authors for the introduction of a public lending right system similar to that already operating in Denmark and Sweden and at present receiving consideration by the Governments of Finland, Norway, Holland and the United Kingdom. 1. Can the Attorney-General say what are the main features of the Danish legislation. 2. What are the main features of the proposal submitted by the Australian Society of Authors. 3. Does the Government favour any other system of ensuring that Australian authors are compensated for their work, and is any legislation under consideration to achieve this end. 4. In respect of each of the last 5 years, what funds have been allocated to the Commonwealth Literary Fund for disbursement to authors, and what are the names of the beneficiaries and the amounts paid in each case. {: #subdebate-59-20-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The AttorneyGeneral has supplied the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Australian Society of Authors has proposed to the Government that a public lending right scheme be introduced in Australia. Schemes that are frequently referred to as public lending right schemes are in operation or under consideration in the countries mentioned in the honourable member's question. Since there are, however, significant differences between the schemes in operation in the countries mentioned, it cannot be said that the scheme proposed by the Australian Society of Authors is similar to the schemes in all of those countries. One of the alternative proposals put forward by the Australian Society of Authors is for the introduction of a scheme that bears a marked resemblance to the scheme in operation in Denmark. 1. The Danish legislation gives an entitlement to authors who are Danish nationals to claim from a Government fund an annual payment based on the numbers of copies of books written by them held on the shelves of public lending libraries in Denmark. 2. The Australian Society of Authors has made two alternative proposals. One alternative is for the amendment of the Copyright Act 1968 to give authors, as part of the copyright in their books, the right to authorize the lending of their books. The other alternative is for the establishment of a fund for the making of payments to Australian authors on a basis similar to that under which payments arc made in Denmark. 3. An investigation of the proposal made by the Australian Society of Authors is being undertaken at present. The question of other possible systems of payment to authors would only arise in the event of a decision being made not to adopt one of the schemes proposed by the Australian Society of Authors. 4. This part of the honourable member's question refers to matters falling within the ministerial responsibility of the Minister for the Environment, Aborigines and the Arts. The Minister has been asked to supply the honourable member with a written answer to this part of the honourable member's question. Commonwealth Acts: Consolidation (Question No. 4678) **Mr Enderby** asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that a consolidation of Commonwealth Acts has not been published since 31st December 1950, nearly 21 years ago. 1. If so, how many, Commonwealth statutes have been enacted since that date. 2. Can the Attorney-General say whether the 21-year delay in the publication pf a consolidation results in wasted time, wasted work and increased legal costs. 3. When will an up-to-date consolidation of Commonwealth Acts be published. 4. If the problem is one that has been handedover to outside contractors or publishers and the neglect is theirs, will the Attorney-General take immediate steps to make other arrangements. {: #subdebate-59-20-s2 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP en - The Attorney-General has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The last bound general reprint of Commonwealth Acts was published as at 31st December 1950. Since then, however, reprints in pamphlet form incorporating all amendments to the date of reprinting have been issued from time to time for most Acts in common use. Twenty-eight reprints of Acts have been published so far this year and the total number available is about 170. If a complete set of reprints of Acts is maintained in alphabetical order, there is little occasion to refer to the 1901-1950 bound reprint. It is thought by some members of the legal profession that pamphlet reprints are more useful than complete reprints in the form of bound volumes, since the pamphlet reprints can more easily be kept uptodate than complete bound reprints, which necessarily can only be produced at intervals. 1. 2,218 (to 30th June 1971). 2. No. 3. On 9th November last, I gave the following answer to a similar question asked in the Senate: I have recently considered the question whether a general reprint of Commonwealth Acts should be undertaken, and have determined thai work should be put in hand towards the production of such a reprint. The drafting and enactment of a Statute Law Revision Bill, which reduces considerably the overall size of a reprint by, repealing Acts and portions of Acts the operation of which is exhausted and makes necessary amendments of a non-contentious nature, is desirable before a general reprint is undertaken. Such a Bill is usually enacted towards the end of a year's sittings and becomes the last Act of the year, so that Acts passed earlier in the year can if necessary be dealt with in the Bill. An officer of the Office of Parliamentary Counsel is already engaged in the preparation of a Statute Law Revision Bill, but the drafting and settlement of such a Bill in consultation with the departments that administer Commonwealth Acts will necessarily take a substantial period.' {: type="1" start="5"} 0. The problem has not been so handed over. {:#subdebate-59-21} #### Crimes of Violence: Compensation for Victims (Question No. 4251!) {: #subdebate-59-21-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: >As the Commonwealth is now considering legislation to compensate the victims of crimes of violence in the mainland Territories (Hansard. 20th August 1971, page 468), is it proposed to have the Standing Committee of Commonwealth and State Attorneys-General again discuss the question of uniform legislation in the States (Hansard. 10th October 1968, page 1902). {: #subdebate-59-21-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The AttoroneyGeneral has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >No. As was indicated in the answer in Hansard, 1 0th October 1968, page 1902. the question of the introduction of any such legislation is felt to be a matter for each Stale to decide. {:#subdebate-59-22} #### Adult Rights (Question No. 3621) {: #subdebate-59-22-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: >On what matters and what dates > >has each State Parliament enacted, and > >has each State Government proclaimed or will it proclaim legislation giving adult rights lo persons under 21 years of age. {: #subdebate-59-22-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The AttoroneyGeneral has provided the following answer the honourable member's question: >New South Wales > >On 1 3th November 1970, the Minors (Property and Contracts) Bill was assented to and on 4th June 1971 the Act was proclaimed to commence on 1st July 1971. > >The Act provides that persons who have attained the age of 18 years have full legal capacity and adult rights in relation to, among other things, matters of contract and property. > >A full list of matters in which persons over 18 are relieved of the disability of infancy is set out in s. 6(1) of the Act. > >South Australia > >On 8th April 1971, the 'Age of Majority (Reduction) Kill' was assented in and on 15th April 1971, the Act was. proclaimed to commence on that day. > >This Act provides that persons who have attained the age of 18 years shall be of full age and capacity except for certain specified matters including conditions, rights and obligations of employment. > >The Constitution Act Amendment Act (No. *2)* 1970-1971, which is expressed to come into force on a date to be fixed, or at the latest on "HUh June 1972, reduces the voting age under State law lo 18 years. > >Western Australia > >The Mousing Advances (Contracts with Infants) Act 1968 enables minors in the age group 18-21 years to enter into valid and enforceable mortgages to secure repayment of housing loans made to them. > >The Electoral Act Amendment Act (No. 2) 1970 which came into force on Sth December 1970 reduced the voting age under State law to 18 years. > >Victoria > >The Properly Law (Loans to Minors) Act 1961, us amended, enables minors in the age group 18-21 years to enter into valid and enforceable mortgages to secure repayment of housing loans made to them. > >Queensland > >The Real Property Acts Amendment .Act 1963 enables minors in the age group 18-21 years to enter into valid and enforceable, mortgage"; to secure repayment of housing loans made to them. > >Future Legislation > >A Bill to reduce the age of majority from 21 years to 18 years of age was introduced in the Tasmanian House of Assembly on 25th November 1971. by the State Attorney-General. > >Clause 3 of the Bill provides thai upon the legislation coining into operation persons who have attained or who attain the age of 18 years shall bc deemed to attain full age and full capacity for the purposes of the laws of the State, except for certain specified matters including conditions, rights and obligations of employment. {:#subdebate-59-23} #### Dual Nationality (Question No. 4807) {: #subdebate-59-23-s0 .speaker-AV4} ##### Mr Hurford: asked the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that Australia will not allow a citizen enjoying Australian nationality to also hold the nationality of another nation; if not, why not. 1. Is it also a fact that many migrants in Australia are deterred from becoming naturalised because dual nationality is not permitted. 2. Can he say which countries allow their citizens to hold dual nationality. {: #subdebate-59-23-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (!) No. Australia does not favour dual nationality, but recognises it where it occurs. Whether a person loses his original nationality upon becoming an Australian citizen depends entirely upon the nationality law of the country of his original nationality. Australia does - not require that an applicant for Australian citizenship should divest himself of any other citizenship he may possess before he is granted Australian citizenship. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. No. 1. 1 am unable to provide a complete list of countries which allow their citizens to hold dual nationality. However it is known that migrants from some countries retain their original nationality, upon becoming Australian citizens. These include migrants from Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, Greece, Hungary, Poland, Roumania, Switzerland, Turkey, the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics and Yugoslavia. Immigration: Special Passage Assistance Programme (Question No. 4057) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In which countries does the Special Passage Assistance Programme operate. 1. How many persons of (a) European, (b) partly European and (c) non-European descent migrated from each of these countries to Australia in the latest year for which statistics are available. 2. How many applications affecting persons in each category in each country were (a) received, (b) approved and (c) rejected under the programme in that year. {: #subdebate-59-23-s2 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Special Assitance Programme was introduced to provide unilateral passage-cost assistance to desirable migrants of European descent who could not be assisted under other migration agreements or arrangements. Its operation is limited geographically only by the exclusion of certain countries such as New Zealand and Canada and the Iron Curtain countries. In practice the great majority of migrants travelling under the Special Passage Assistance Programme come from the countries of western Europe and the Americas. The following are the major source-areas for immigration under the Special Passage Assistance Programme: Denmark Finland France Germany Norway Sweden Switzerland U.K. and Ireland U.S.A. South America South Africa. (2) {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The numbers Of persons involved in applications under the Special Passage Assistance Programme that were (a) received, (b) approved and (c) rejected in 1970-71 in those countries were: It will be appreciated that many applications lapse through loss of interest or are withdrawn before determination and that enquiries in some cases are protracted. These are some of the factors which account for the gap between the totals of the approval and rejection figures and those for applications received. Since, as mentioned above, assisted passages are available only to migrants of European origin, these figures would not include any non-Europeans or people of mixed descent. Rural Reconstruction (Question No.- 4871) " **Mr Kennedy** asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: >What (a) number and (b) percentage of -applications for assistance under the rural- reconstruction scheme for (i) farm build-up and (ii) debt reconstruction have been (A) received, (B) accepted" and (C) rejected in (1) each State and Territory and (II) the Commonwealth. > >How many applications are still under consideration. - (3) What sum has been advanced by the Commonwealth to each State for (a) farm build-up and (b) debt reconstruction, and what sum has been expended by each State Government from the advance to date. {: #subdebate-59-23-s3 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The . answers to the honourable member's questions are as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) The Stales Grants (Rural Reconstruction) Act 1971, does not provide for grants to finance reconstruction of farms in Commonwealth territories. The -attached table-- provides information supplied by State reconstruction authorities in answer to questions (1) and (2) from the inception of the Scheme until 30.h November 1971. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Under the States. Grants (Rural Reconstruction) Aci the States are required to utilise any funds available to the State from balances arising from the operation of the Commonwealth Loan (Farmers' Debt Adjustment) Act before any financial assistance is provided by the Commonwealth tinder the rural reconstruction scheme. Up to 7th December 041Y N.S.W. and W.A. had requested advances from the funds available under the Rural Reconstruction Scheme. $10m has been advanced, to N.S.W. and $3m to W.A. The States did not specify how much of these advances were to be used for farm build-up and how much for debt reconstruction. At this time a disection of expenditure on farm build-up and debt reconstruction is not available. Total expenditure by the States on rural recon- .struction, from the inception of the scheme to 30th November has been: {:#subdebate-59-24} #### United Nations Agencies: East Pakistan (Question No. 4745) {: #subdebate-59-24-s0 .speaker-8H7} ##### Mr Enderby: asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What agencies of the United Nations are operating in East Pakistan; 1. Which of the agencies are providing food aid; 2. What is the nature and extent of the food aid. {: #subdebate-59-24-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The United Nations Secretary-General has established in East Pakistan a United Nations East Pakistan Relief Operation (UNEPRO) to co-ordinate United Nations and other international emergency aid. The following organisations connected with the United Nations normally operate in East Pakistan: United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF); World Food Programme (WFP): World Health Organisation (WHO); Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO): United Nations Development Programme (UNDP): International Labour Organisation (ILO); United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and the World Bank Group. Normal aid activities undertaken by these organisations have been temporarily halted. 1. UNEPRO; UNICEF; WFP. 2. The following food aid has been pledged: (i) through UNEPRO Australia: 4,780 tons rice- US$557,750 Japan: 3,650 tons rice - $US500,000 Federal Republic of Germany: 27,000 tons food grains--$US3,000,000 Netherlands: food grains and dairy products- $US 1,500,000 United States: 100,000 tons wheat and 75,000 tons rice- JUS32,625,000 {: type="i" start="ii"} 0. through UNICEF: United States: 35,000 tons of corn, soy, milk and wheat/soy blend - $US10,772,000 {: type="i" start="iii"} 0. through WFP: Canada: 80,000 tons wheat- $US7,000,000 United States: 50,000 tons food grains- $US7,700,000 These supplies can be regarded as responses to the current emergency situation. The WFP has also completed plans for three food aid projects valued at $US3 million for quasi-emergency rehabilitation purposes. {:#subdebate-59-25} #### East Pakistani Refugees (Question No. 4624) {: #subdebate-59-25-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Does the Government, regard the sustenance of the East Pakistani refugees presently in India as the primary responsibility of the (a) Indian Government, (b) Pakistan Government or (c) international community. 1. Can he say what proportion of the current cost of feeding and housing the East Pakistani refugees in India is currently being borne by (a), the Indian Government, (b) the Australian Government, (c) other Governments and (d) international organisations and charities. 2. What long-term strategy for the maintenance of the East Pakistani refugees does the Government support. 3. .What positive steps has the Government taken to encourage political conditions favourable to the return of the refugees to their homeland. {: #subdebate-59-25-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In my statement to the House on 27th October, 1 referred lo the fact thai the question of providing relief for the refugees has been recognised as an international one and noted that the Government acknowledges its obligation to make a significant contribution to the international effort. 1. The most recent information available to the Government Ls that the cost of refugee relief to the end of March 1972 is estimated to be $US700m. The Government of India has made budgetary provision for Rs2.6 billion ($US351m) up to the end of December 1971. The value of foreign assistance so far is estimated at $US235m of which $US187m has been pledged by governments and $US48m by non-governmental organisations. The Australian Government's pledges to the area total $A5.5m of which $4.5m is for the refugees in India. In addition, Australian volum try organisations have provided about $A2m for the refugees. 2. The Government supports the attainment of a political settlement which would enable the refugees lo return to their homeland. 3. The situation in East Pakistan is the primary responsibility of the Government of Pakistan. The Australian Government has been active, however, in confidential diplomatic exchanges directed towards reaching a political settlement {:#subdebate-59-26} #### Oysters (Question No. 4919) {: #subdebate-59-26-s0 .speaker-KWZ} ##### Mr Wallis: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: (!) Did the Standing Committee on Fisheries, at a recent meeting, discuss the possibility of an import licence being granted to the firm of Oyster Farmers Coffun Bay Ply Ltd for the import of live oyster spat from Japan. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. If so, what (a) decision was reached and (b) reasons were given for the decision by the committee on this matter. {: #subdebate-59-26-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. (a) A report was prepared for submission to the Australian Fisheries Council which will meet in Hobart in March 1972 and (b) The committee is nol a decision making body nor is the Council, but its recommendation will be submitted to the Minister for Customs and Excise who has the administrative responsibility. {:#subdebate-59-27} #### Meat Exports (Question No. 4791) {: #subdebate-59-27-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the Australian Meat Board announced that the 1971 meat quota for the United States of America was 15,000 tons short. 1. If so, can he say whether this quota has been re-allocated to other countries including Ireland' and New Zealand. 2. Have cattle prices dropped in some instances by as much as $25 a head as a result of this short-fall in exports to the United States of America. 3. Has the short-fall been the result of poor trading by Australia and inadequate initiative by the Meat Board. 4. Has an inquiry been carried out as a result of the short-fall; if so, with what results. 5. If an inquiry has not been carried out, will he initiate one immediately. {: #subdebate-59-27-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. Yes. 2. An examination of auction prices at the Sydney and Melbourne selling centres shows that prices for slaughter cattle in November declined by aproximately $1 per 100 lb on October levels. This decline is considerably less than $25 per bead and cannot be specifically related to any angle course. 3. No. 4. and (6) No. The reasons for the shortfall, which are already known 'to both the Government and the Australian Meat Board, arise from the dock strike in the United States, the economic measures imposed in that country and the international currency crises arising from those economic measures. {:#subdebate-59-28} #### Poultry Industry: Stabilisation (Question No. 4847) {: #subdebate-59-28-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is there an increasing tide of bankruptcy in the poultry industry and is the incidence of bankruptcies growing daily. 1. If so. will he ask the Prime Minister to bring personal pressure to bear on the Victorian Government to agree to industry stabilisation now so desperately needed and agreed to by all States except Victoria. {: #subdebate-59-28-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Enquiries made through the respective State Egg Marketing Boards show that there has been no increase this year in the number of bankruptcies in the egg industry. In fact bankruptcies have been fewer in 1971 than they were last year. However, this is not an indication that the industry's profitability is increasing. There are many producers who are experiencing financial difficulties because of the effect on returns of excessive production. 1. The Commonwealth Government has made it clear on a number of occasions that it would support any constitutional scheme acceptable to a majority of egg producers to regulate egg production. However production control is the prerogative of the States and following the decision of the Victorian Government not to join with the other mainland States in a co-ordinated scheme of control the Victorian Minister of Agriculture stated he could see no useful purpose in the suggestion made by the South Australian Minister of Agriculture that a special meeting of the Australian Agricultural Council be held to consider the matter. In the circumstances there appears to be no alternative but to await the next meeting of the Australian Agricultural Council in February when the subject has been listed for discussion. {:#subdebate-59-29} #### War Service Land Settlement (Question No. 4416) {: #subdebate-59-29-s0 .speaker-KGN} ##### Mr Kirwan:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many farms allocated in Western Australia to War Service Land Settlement were (a) established, (b) project and (c) single unit. 1. How many 600-700 acre pasture project area farms are west of Mount Barker. 2. What is the average rental for (a) a wheat and sheep farm and (b) a 600-700 acre pasture project farm west of Mount Barker. 3. What has been the average gross return pex annum for the period 1960-1968 from (a) wheat and sheep farm and (b) a project farm west of Mount Barker. 4. How many settlers failed for financial reasons in (a) wheat arid sheep area and (b) the project areas of Mount Barker. 5. If a larger percentage of the failures was from the project areas, can he say why this occurred when all settlers were selected on the basis of eligibility, suitability and qualifications as settlers. 6. Was it the policy of the War Service Land Settlement to force settlers on project farms west of Mount Barker to breed fat lambs on oestrogen dominant clover pasture, e.g. yarloop, and did the Rural and Industries Bank also adopt this policy. 7. During the assessment period on project farms west of Mount Barker, was it the administration or the settler who was responsible for the farm policy on individual farms in regard to type of stock carried. tv) Are the 600-700 acre pasture project area farms west of Mount 'Barker still considered a viable and economic unit. 8. If so, why is the Rural Reconstruction Committee allocating extra adjoining farms to some settlers. {: #subdebate-59-29-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >War Service Land Settlement in Western Australia was conducted initially under an agreement between the Commonwealth and the State and subsequently through grants of financial assistance to the State subject to defined conditions. > >Under these arrangements the Commonwealth's role was mainly concerned wilh policy formation and the provision of finance. The detailed administration of the scheme was carried out by the State through a Land Settlement Board. This Board ceased to function as from 31 August, 1966. > >Commonwealth records, therefore, are not as detailed as would be necessary to answer all the questions asked. The State, at the present time, is unable to assist. > >In these circumstances the best information available in answer to the honourable member's question is: > >Statistics are not maintained in a form which would enable this information to bc readily ascertained. > >125 farms. > >(a) not available. > >Rocky Gully Project- $404 per half year. > >Perillup Project - $414 per half year. Denbarker Project - $436 per half year. (4.)-(6) Information not available. > >Pastures were seeded to plant species laid down by the Stale Department of Agriculture. The seeding of the farms west of Mount Barker took place years before Yarloop clover was suspected of causing infertility problems. Only the low wet areas were seeded to a mixture containing Yarloop and on an average would involve only 50 or 60 acres with a few up to 150 to 200 acres of a 50 per cent mixture. > >Settlers were not forced to breed fat. lambs but were actively encouraged to diversify by both the Board and the Bank. > >The settler, but availability frequently dictated the type of stock carried. > >Commonwealth officers have not the information as to the present carrying capacity of each farm and so are unable to express an opinion. > >The Rural Reconstruction Committee does not allocate farms, lt provides financial assistance under certain circumstances to those who require to expand for various reasons. I have been informed that no settlers in the Rocky Gully, Perillup or Denbarker projects have been assisted to purchase adjoining farms. {:#subdebate-59-30} #### Australian Wool Board (Question No. 4753) {: #subdebate-59-30-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: >To what countries, for what periods and for what purposes has the Wool Board paid for **Sir William** Gunn to make visits in the last 5 years. {: #subdebate-59-30-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Australian Wool Board has paid for the following overseas visits by **Sir William** Gunn during the past five years: > >Durin the last five years, **Sir William** as Chairman of the International Wool Secretariat has had to make a number of overseas visits on the business of the I.W.S. In these instances, the costs were met by the I.W.S. {:#subdebate-59-31} #### Health: Cigarette Smoking (Question No. 4527) {: #subdebate-59-31-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the recent Annual Report of the Department of Health stale that during the past 25 years it has become increasingly apparent that cigarette smoking is a major cause of ill health. 1. Has his attention been drawn to a claim in the recent Annual Report of the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria that control of lung cancer now requires Government intervention to remove cigarette smoking on the one hand and to increase smoking education programmes on the other. 2. Can he say whether cigarette manufacturers in Canada have agreed lo cease all radio and television advertising after 1st January, 1972, as a result of concern expressed by the Canadian Government and the serious threat lo public health caused by smoking. 3. Has television and radio advertising of cigarettes and smoking in the United Slates ceased for similar reasons. 4. Can he say in what other countries of the world radio and television advertising of cigarette and tobacco smoking has been stopped (A) voluntarily and (B) compulsorily. 5. Does he still defend and uphold the right ot television and radio advertising of cigarette and tobacco smoking on the basis that it is profitable to these media of communication: if so, why docs he enshrine the right of profit-making ahead of the interests of public health. {: #subdebate-59-31-s1 .speaker-KIF} ##### Sir Alan Hulme:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. The Chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Control Board has informed me that this claim was made in the recent Annual Report of the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria, although the actual reference in the report was to the removal of cigarette promotion rather than the removal of cigarette smoking. 2. I understand that the Canadian Government has decided to prohibit all advertising and promotion of cigarettes from January next year. 3. The United Slates of America have already banned cigarette advertising on radio and television. 4. The ban which has been placed on cigarette advertising in certain overseas countries appears to vary somewhat from country to country. From information available to me there are currently some 13 countries in which a ban on cigarette advertising has been imposed to some degree; in some cases the ban applies only to television advertising, in other cases to television and radio and in a few cases to all advertising media. Although I am aware of only 13 countries applying a ban, the honourable member has no doubl noticed that the most recent Annual Report of the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria suggests that cigarette advertising on television is now banned in 17 countries, including Britain, America and Canada; the ban in the case of Canada is, of course, to apply after 1st January, 1972. I am not in a position to provide any accurate information on whether the ban on cigarette advertising in the countries concerned was applied voluntarily or compulsorily, although 1 understand that in the case of Denmark the ban on cigarette advertising on radio, television and in the cinema, was voluntarily applied. 5. This portion of the honourable member's question presents an opportunity for me to correct a wrong impression which seems to have been gained from an answer I gave recently at Question time on this subject. Initially it mu-i be understood that the question of any controls on cigarette advertising or distribution is basically one for my colleague, the Minister for Health, and his department. The mailer has been considered several times by the National Health and Medical Research Council, and the implementation of some of the recommendations made by that body is a matter for Slate Government* s far as the Federal Government is concerned, the Cabinet has carefully considered the submissions made to it, and has firmly decided that the situation is best handled by tin education cam> i"n regarding the hazards of smoking, and by a voluntary agreement regarding some forms nf advertising. It follows therefore that the production and marketing of cigarettes is an entirely legal operation, and to ban their advertising on radio and television only would be ah act of discrimination against some media, to (he very great advantage of others. In the United Slates, for instance, two surveys have recently been published showing the startling increase in the advertising of cigarettes in magazines since such advertisements were banned in the broadcast media. Such advertising in most leading magazines increased by well over 100 per cent compared with the same period the previous year, and in one case the increase was 533 per cent. In the light of this information it is apparent, that any action to ban cigarette advertising on radio and television would only have the effect of very substantially redistributing advertising income among the media, which depend on that revenue for existence, without bringing about any change in the total volume of such advertising 1 should add that the voluntary code governing the advertising of cigarettes, recently revised by the industry, in consultation wilh the Department of Health and the Control Board, appears to have achieved its object in that no advertising of this nature is now broadcast or televised in proximity to programmes which are addressed to young people. It is not for me, of course, as PostmasterGeneral to determine the matter of any health hazards which may accompany the smoking of cigarettes. What I am attempting to do is to put forward the argument that discrimination in respect of one section of the advertising media - because it is one over the which the Federal Government can exercise some controls - cannot bo justified. {:#subdebate-59-32} #### Apprenticeships (Question No. 4875) {: #subdebate-59-32-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. 1 ) How many apprenticeships of each kind were (a) made available by his Department and (b) filled (i) throughout the Commonwealth. Of) In each State or Territory and (Hi) in the Commonwealth Ordnance Factory, Bendigo, in each year since I96S. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. How many will be made available in 1972 In each of the three areas. {: #subdebate-59-32-s1 .speaker-K9L} ##### Mr Garland:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (1) (a) Information on the number of apprenticeships made available in past years by my Department is not readily available. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. The numbers of apprenticeships filled in each year since 1965 are shown in the following tables. Australian Wool Board (Question No. 477.1) {: #subdebate-59-32-s2 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon no ice: >In what circumstances does the Wool Board pay for the wife and/or secretary of a member of the Board lo accompany him on overseas visits. {: #subdebate-59-32-s3 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is that the Wool Board has never paid for the wife and/ or secretary of a member of the Board to accompany him on overseas visits. {:#subdebate-59-33} #### Defence Contracts (Question No. 4817) {: #subdebate-59-33-s0 .speaker-KXV} ##### Dr Patterson: asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice: >What steps are being taken by his Department to increase the .amount of Commonwealth purchases in Queensland to overcome the serious imbalance which exists between Queensland and the other populous States. {: #subdebate-59-33-s1 .speaker-K9L} ##### Mr Garland:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The basic principle of Government purchasing policy is that it should be carried out as far as practicable under a system of free and open competition. The aim is to obtain the best value for the money spent by accepting the lowest suitable tender. > >To place tenderers from different States on an equal footing, however, tenderers are invited to quote on the basis of delivery only to their capital city. {:#subdebate-59-34} #### Defence Contracts (Question No. 4818) {: #subdebate-59-34-s0 .speaker-KXV} ##### Dr Patterson: asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice: >What are the principal components of expenditure by his Department in the various States each year. {: #subdebate-59-34-s1 .speaker-K9L} ##### Mr Garland:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The principal components of the Department of Supply's annual expenditure in any State are the capital and non-capital expenditure, salaries and wages incurred in running the Department's various factories, establishments and adminstrative offices. > >The Department also lets contracts on behalf of the Defence Group and some other Departments. Details of all such contracts are published in the Commonwealth Gazettes. Information is not readily available on principal commodity groups purchased in each State. > > If the honourable member has a particular area of interest, I would be happy to see whether additional detail could reasonably be provided. {:#subdebate-59-35} #### Defence Contracts (Question No. 4819) {: #subdebate-59-35-s0 .speaker-KXV} ##### Mr Patterson:
DAWSON, QUEENSLAND asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice: >What amount of Commonwealth purchases were made by his Department in each State in each of the last 10 years. {: #subdebate-59-35-s1 .speaker-K9L} ##### Mr Garland:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {:#subdebate-59-36} #### Defence Contracts (Question No. 4820) {: #subdebate-59-36-s0 .speaker-KXV} ##### Dr Patterson: asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that the State of Queensland is discriminated against by his Department in annual purchases by the Commonwealth. 1. If not, what is the reason for the wide differences in purchases by the Commonwealth from Queensland as compared with New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia. {: #subdebate-59-36-s1 .speaker-K9L} ##### Mr Garland:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. 1. As mentioned in my reply to Question 4817, all States are given an equal opportunity to participate in defence business. I have not investigated the reasons for the varying levels of actual participation. {:#subdebate-59-37} #### Wool (Question No. 4723) {: #subdebate-59-37-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: >In view of the general statement, unsupported by detail, by the Acting Minister for Primary Industry on 10 November 1971 regarding imports of wool from New Zealand, will he now answer in detail question No. 4292 which I placed on Notice Paper on 29 September 1971. {: #subdebate-59-37-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question No. 4292 has now been furnished. Woomera (Question No. 4775) {: #subdebate-59-37-s2 .speaker-KWZ} ##### Mr Wallis: asked the Minister for Supply the following question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Have the staff and equipment at Woomera Village, required for maintaining town services such as rubbish disposal and drain cleaning, been drastically reduced since 1967. 1. If so, has this reduction caused a large accumulation of uncleared rubbish throughout the Woomera Village area, resulting in health hazards from flies. 2. Have there been any recent outbreaks of hepatitis in the Woomera Village. 3. If so, were investigations carried out by medical officers at Woomera as ' to the cause of the outbreaks. 4. If investigations were carried out, what were the findings and recommendations relating to the outbreaks. {: #subdebate-59-37-s3 .speaker-K9L} ##### Mr Garland:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The staff and equipment at Woomera Village required for maintaining town services such as rubbish disposal and drain cleaning has not been drastically reduced since 1967. In answer to a previous question related to this subject (Question on Notice, No. 887, Hansard 3 June 1970, Page 2903) it was indicated that there had been a decrease in staff, partly as a planned reduction and partly due to difficulty in recruiting labour. No further planned reductions have taken place since then but difficulty in recruitment has been experienced. When necessary, assistance to the Section concerned is provided from other sections of the Woomera work force. 1. No. 2. There have been 12 cases of hepatitis in Woomera since 1 July 1971, 6 in September and 6 in October. One of these was from a Commonwealth Railways camp at Wirraminna, some 40 miles away 3. Yes. 4. The report of the Senior Medical Officer did not establish the cause of the original infection but indicated that the subsequent spread of the disease was most probably due to close personal contact. All residents in the Woomera Village were advised to pay particular attention to personal hygiene. East Pakistani Refugees (Question No. 4559) {: #subdebate-59-37-s4 .speaker-CV4} ##### Mr Jacobi:
HAWKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs on notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Will the Government propose to the United Nations Assembly that the pitiful conditions of the nine million refugees now in West Bengal, and the situation in East Pakistan, pose a threat to peace and international security and that consequently the United Nations Organisation should endeavour to bring about a peaceful settlement that will meet the already democratically expressed wishes of the people of East Pakistan. 1. Will he take appropriate steps for Australia to initiate or support moves at the United Nations for the supply of large quantities of food grain to East Pakistan to meet the expected shortfall of two million tons in the next six months and to ensure that distribution is carried out under the supervision of United Nations agencies. 2. Will the Government ascertain from the Government of Pakistan (a) the present whereabouts and state of health of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, President of the Awami League and (b) whether or not Sheikh Mujibur Rahman has been charged with any offences and, if so, whether he had been tried, by what tribunal or court was he tried and what was the result of the trial. 3. Will the Government offer permanent residence to at least 1,000 refugees from East Pakistan who are considered to have suitable qualifications for permanent settlement In Australia. 4. Docs the Government have a commitment to provide military aid to Pakistan in 1971/72 under the South-East Asia Collective Defence Treaty or any other agreement; if so, what form of assistance will be provided. 5. Was Australian military aid provided to Pakistan in 1970-71 under this Treaty or any other agreement; if so, is any of that aid still unsatisfied. {: #subdebate-59-37-s5 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Australian Government has exercised and will continue to exercise Its influence in whatever way it can to reduce tension in the Indian sob-continent. 1. Australia's relief aid for East Pakistan is being provided through the United Nations in response to appeals by the Secretary-General on 16 June, 16 July and 13 August. Details of this humanitarian aid, amounting to $1 million and including a shipment of rice worth $485,000, were announced in the House by the Acting Minister for Foreign Affairs on 5 October. Australia's aid is intended to meet priority needs as assessed by the United Nations authorities who are arranging its distribution in consultation with local authorities. A food shortage has been expected in East Pakistan but has not yet delvoleped. According to the latest assessments a food shortage might be felt by next March. In the meantime, the Australian Government will of course keep the situation under constant review. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. (a) Sheikh Mujibur Rahman is understood to be under detention somewhere in West "Pakistan. The Australian Government has no information about his present state of health, (b) Sheikh Mujibur Rahman has been charged with 'waging war against Pakistan'. He is being tried in camera by a special military tribunal. On 21 August it was announced that **Mr Allahbux** Brohi, a Karachi lawyer, had agreed to act as counsel with full rights of defence. On 28 September the President's office announced that the trial had resumed on 7 September. There has been no announcement of completion of the trial, or of a verdict. 1. Suitably qualified non-Europeans who are eligible for permanent residence in Australia are admitted without quota restriction. 2. Under long-standing arrangements both Pakistan and India are being provided with one, place each at the 1972 course at the Australian Staff College at Queenscliff. Otherwise the Government has no 'commitment' to provide anything which could be described as 'military aid' during 1971-72 and it has no intention or doing so. 3. No, apart from a place at Queenscliff as. mentioned above. {:#subdebate-59-38} #### Wool (Question No. 4292) {: #subdebate-59-38-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How much of the Australian wool clip was processed in Australia in each of the last 10 years. 1. What are the categories of processing. 2. Is it a fact that fifty bales .of wool daily provide a continuity of work for 2,000 textile workers. ... 3. What proportion of wool as against synthetics is used by the Australian textile industry. 4. Is Australia presently importing wool, other than carpel wool, from New Zealand, 5. What was the (a) quantity, and (b) value of these wool, imports last year and for this year to date. 6. Is New Zealand offering ISO days credit for wool sales. 7. Does this compare unfavourable with terms offered to Australian wool processors who are required to pay within IS days. 8. Is this the reason for the successful penetration of the Australian market by New Zealand wool. {: #subdebate-59-38-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (!) Because of appreciable time-lags between the production, sale and processing of wool, it is nol possible to establish accurately how much of the Australian wool clip in any given year is processed locally. A further difficulty is that statistics of wool used in processing do not distinguish between locally produced and imported wool. Some indication of the volume of locally produced wool which is processed in Australia can be gained, however, from mill consumption statistics adjusted fo rimports Estimates far the last 10 years are a> follows: >The average mill consumption of locally produced wool for the 10 year period was 65.0 m.lb. clean, while the average total Australian wool production in the same period was 1,008.0 m.lb. clean. - For the 10 year period, then, Australian mil) consumption of locally produced raw wool has been about 6.5 per cent of to.al production. A proportion of the Australian mill consumption of raw wool is exported in the form of wool tops and - manufactured wool products. > >The processing of greasy wool into finished consumer products involves a considerable number of steps and the processes employed vary according to the nature of the end product. The main processes used are scouring, carbonizing, carding, topmaking, spinning, weaving, knitting and feltmaking. > >It is not possible to give a definite answer to this question. The number of textile workers which a- given quantity of wool will keep employed would depend on such factors as the number of processes which have to be performed (which vary according to the end product), the utilisation and efficiency of machinery and the extent to which wool is blended with other fibres. > >The Commonwealth Statistician's most recent figures on mill consumption of synthetic fibres in Australia refer to the year 1967-68. In that year, usage of man-made fibres in the Australian textile industry was about 17.2m. lb. In the same year raw wool consumption in Australia (including imported wool) was about 72.4 m.lb clean weight. > >and (6) Official import statistics do not provide a dissection of wool imports on a quality basis. Information available to the Department of Primary Industry indicates, however, that the bulk of wool imported from New Zealand is of types suitable for carpet manufacture, which are not grown locally. Small quantities of other types ' of wool not available in Australia or not produced in sufficient quantities are also imported for other end uses. > >The terms of sale at New Zealand wool auctions require wool buyers to pay for their purchases wi.hin a 'prompt period' of 18 days. The period of 150 days mentioned in the question probably refers to the period for which the New Zealand banking system will provide postshipment finance to wool exporters. Australian banks also make available post-shipment finance to wool exporters of up to 180 days. > >The "prompt period' for payment for wool purchases at Australian Wool auctions is 16 days. Like wool exporters, local wool processors have access to credit from Australian banks for the financing of their wool purchases. > >As already stated, imports of New Zealand wool into Australia are of types which are not available in Australia or are not produced In sufficient quantities. {:#subdebate-59-39} #### Milk for School Children (Question No. 4293) {: #subdebate-59-39-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that throughout Australia there irc 10,000 schoolchildren unable to participate in the free milk scheme because of distance and supply difficulties. 1. Has his attention been drawn to the statement by the New South Wales Minister for Education indicating that 400 schools are not in receipt of free milk for those reasons. 2. Is it a fact that the children denied free milk are in areas where because of remoteness they face dietary difficulties. 3. Will he and the Minister for Health, review the position with a view to using citrus juice as an alternative to milk where milk supplies are not available to the disadvantaged children. {: #subdebate-59-39-s1 .speaker-5E4} ##### Mr Sinclair:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (3) According to information provided to the Department of Health. by authorities in the States and Territories which arrange the distribution of free milk to school children approximately 157,000 eligible children did not participate in the scheme during 1970-71. It is not known by that Department how many of these children not receiving free milk at school were unable to do sio because of distance and supply difficulties. However, where, because of remoteness, bottled pasteurised milk is not available provision has been made in the Commonwealth agreement with the States for other forms of milk such as powdered or reduced milk to be supplied to school children. 1. In reply to a question in the New South Wales Legislative Assembly in May this year the New South Wales Minister for Education and Science stated that 125 schools in New South Wales do not receive free milk under the free milk scheme. This represented 2.939 children or 0.4% of the overall primary school population eligible to participate in the scheme. 2. Prior to the introduction of the States Grants (Milk for School Children) Act limited school milk schemes were in operation in several States and it was decided that the extension of these schemes would be an effective means of promoting the health of children through improved nutrition, lt was considered that milk as an 'all round' food best served this purpose. Prom time to time, consideration has been given to proposals that, fruit juice be supplied to school children in lieu of milk but it has been decided on each occasion not to extend the scope of the Act beyond the supply of milk. {:#subdebate-59-40} #### Diplomatic Missions: Australia and China (Question No. 4259) {: #subdebate-59-40-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In which countries are there diplomatic missions from both Australia and the People's Republic of China. 1. Did the 2 meetings between the Australia!, and Chinese ambassadors in Paris, to which the Prime Minister referred on 17th July 1971, take place on 27th May and 2nd July. 2. In which countries did Chinese ambassadors make the representations to which the Prime Minister referred on 16th September 1971 (Hansard, pages 1401 and 1404). {: #subdebate-59-40-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answers to the honourable member's questions are as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Both Australia and the People's Republic of China have diplomatic missions in the Arab Republic of Egypt, Austria, Burma, Ceylon, Canada, Chile, Denmark, France, India, Iran, Italy, Kenya, Laos, Netherlands, Nigeria, Pakistan, Sweden, Switzerland, Tanzania, United Kingdom, USSR and Yugoslavia. 1. Yes. 2. It is not my intention to reveal the details of these confidential meetings. UNESCO Education Conference (Question No. 4474) {: #subdebate-59-40-s2 .speaker-8H7} ##### Mr Enderby: asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Will the UNESCO Education Congress be held in Australia in May 1973. 1. Is the Congress considered to be important by the Government. 2. Will Australia be represented at the Congress. 3. Will the Government assist in financing the Congress: if not, why not. 4. If so, (a) to what extent will the Government assist the Congress and (b) what percentage of the overall assistance provided by those countries represented at the Congress will be provided by the Australian Government. {: #subdebate-59-40-s3 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >This matter is currently under consideration between the departments concerned and no decisions have yet been made. A definitive reply will be given as soon as possible. {:#subdebate-59-41} #### East Pakistani Refugees (Question No. 4620) {: #subdebate-59-41-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention ben drawn to a report in The Australian Financial Review of 20th October 1971 of a statement by the Chief of Public Affair; of the United Nations High Commissions for Refugees that the Australian Government asked the United Nations to pay for transportation costs incurred in shipping medical and food supplies ti> the refugee disaster area in India. 1. If so, and if the Government has made the request, why did the Government take this unusual step. 2. Can he say whether any estimates have been made by the Indian Government, the United Nations or other responsible organisations as lo the current monthly food and medical requirements needed to sustain the refugees in India. 3. . Has the Government communicated with the Indian Government on the nature and extent of the aid which Australia can provide to relieve the suffering of the Pakistani refugees. {: #subdebate-59-41-s1 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The answer to the houourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. Australia offered rice to India on f.o.b. terms as provided under the Food Aid Convention for gifts of food aid. The Government also informed the United Nations authorities nf the offer. India asked the U.N.H.C.R. whether the High Commission could pay for the freight. The U.N.H.C.R. said that it would and the lice was then formally provided to India through the U.N.H.C.R. Australia is making a cash contribution to the U.N.H.C.R. of $500,000 which is more than sufficient to cover the freight costs on rice estimated at $140,000. Australia has paid the freight costs of all other supplies provided far the refugees. The following is the full text of a statement made by **Mr Ole** Volfing, Head of Fund-raising Activities of the U.N.H.C.R. on 24th October (forwarded to the Government by the U.N.H.CR. Representative for Australia and New Zealand): I hereby wish to state that I have not, at any stage of my meetings with journalists during my visits to Australia or New Zealand, criticised the Australian Government for the size of its contribution or for the freight arrangements made in connection with their generous gift of $A1m worth of rice. On Thursday, October 21. the 'Australian Financial Review' quoted me incorrectly, including quoting me as having said that I am surprised Australia has asked the U.N.H.C.R. to pay the transport costs of the rice. On Thursday afternoon, October 21, when 1 arrived in Wellington' I was asked by the Wellington Correspondent of 'The Australian' if I would give a statement, in the light of the quotation in the 'Austraiian Financial Review' It was at that moment I learned the quotation in the 'Australian Financial Review' of the same day. I dictated a statement to the Welling ton Correspondent of the 'Australian' on one condition - namely, that it would be published in the 'Australian' in full and without any changes. If this could not be promised I had no comments as I did not want to be misquoted once more. The Wellington Correspondent promised that the statement would either be published in full or not published at all, based on which I then dictated my statement. I therefore deeply regret to see on passing through Sydney Airport today. Sunday. October 24, a copy of the 'Australian' of Friday, October 22, which does not publish my statement at all but Instead publishes quotations of something I have never said - such as the U.N.H.C.R. has to go to Sweden or some other country for the money. I wish to make it clear that it is the usual privilege of any government to decide if, how and under what conditions it wishes to contribute to the humanitarian programme of the United Nations and that I, as a United Nations civil servant, could not comment on or question the decision of the Australian Government in this respect. And I find it most unfortunate that Australian newspapers have misquoted me as part of their domestic disagreement with the Government." {: type="1" start="2"} 0. See answer to (1) above. 1. The Government of India has estimated food and medical requirements for a refugee population of eight million for a period of 6 months as follows: {: type="1" start="4"} 0. Yes. The Government's policy in providing relief assistance is to concentrate on those items which have been given priority by the Indian and U.N. authorities. To this end the Government has been in continuing contact with the Indian Government. The Australian High Commissioner in New Delhi, **Mr Patrick** Shaw, has just completed a series of briefings in Australia during which he advised the Government as to the current thinking of Indian authorities in regard to the ways of best assisting the refugees. Telephone and Teleprinter Charges (Question No. 4754) **Mr Whitlam** asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice: >What is the estimated cost of extending the telephone and teleprinter charges in the Melbourne metropolitan area to each of the places which on 26th September 1967, the Victorian Decentralisation Advisory Committee recommended for accelerated development. > >Has he received the report from his Department on the possibility of having a single charge covering local calls and truck calls throughout Australia (Hansard, 8th September 1971, Page 904); if so, when will the report be presented to the House. {: #subdebate-59-41-s2 .speaker-KIF} ##### Sir Alan Hulme:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Some limit has to be placed on the distance over which local calls be allowed, having regard to the economics of plant provision and the costs of operating and maintaining the telephone network as a whole. Adoption of the proposal recommended by the Victorian Decentralisation Advisory Committee to include Ballarat, Bendigo. Latrobe Vasey, Portland and Wodonga Albury in the Melbourne metropolitan area for call charging purposes would entail an extension of the limits of the existing Melbourne local call area which simply could not be justified on economic grounds H .would also entail a heavy increase on the rentals for telephone services in those country areas, which, although offset lo some degree- by a reduction in call fees, would be objected to strongly by those subscribers who did not have a marked community of interest with the metropolitan area and therefore did not call Melbourne subscribers very often. Moreover, the granting of any preferential treatment to. the centres mentioned would have far reaching repercussions so far as the Post Office is concerned since 01 ner centres - not only in Victoria,' but also in the other States - would seek similar treatment in respect of telephone calls to their capital city. similiar comments also apply in the case of telex charges except that the charging districts are somewhat larger. Ballarat, Bendigo and Latrobe Valley telex subscribers are already included jin the Melbourne charging district and, consequently, calls between these subscribers and Melbourne are at the minimum rate. Calls from Portland and Wodonga.'Albury te'ex subscribers to Melbourne fall within the 101- 200 miles category and because nf the distance involved their inclusion in die Melbourne district could not be justified. In any case, such action hardly be taken without due cognizance being given to the claims of other centres. 1. No. the many implications of the proposal to introduce a uniform charge for all telephones are still under examination by my Department. {:#subdebate-59-42} #### Educational Television {: #subdebate-59-42-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice: >What steps have been taken by the Government to implement the recommendations of the Weeden Committee on Educational Television whose report was completed in 1964. {: #subdebate-59-42-s1 .speaker-KIF} ##### Sir Alan Hulme:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The basic policy of the Government in relation to educational television, following its consideration of the report of the Australian Broadcasting Control Board's Advisory Committee on Educational Television Services (the Weeden Committee), was outlined in a statement which I made in Parliament on 11th May, 1966. > >Whilst the Government supported the Committee's views that instructional television programmes ought to be developed as an integral part of the Australian education system, and agreed that education was primarily a matter for State Authorities the Government did not accept the proposal of the advisory Committee that' a separate network of educational television stations was necessary. It considered that the facilities of the Australian Broadcasting Commission and those of commercial stations, if required, were adequate for the forseeable future to provide satisfactory educational television services. lt was considered by the Government, that, as education was a sovereign responsibility of the States, an essential first step in assessing the requirements for educational television was to first obtain from State Governments details of their needs and priorities, and the extent to which they would be prepared to incur expenditure on educational television services. For this purpose, the Government initiated discussions between Commonwealth and State Ministers at a conference held in 1966 and the State Governments have since been examining their individual positions in this matter, bearing in mind' their heavy commitments in the field of education generally. The Commonwealth had previously indicated that it was prepared to provide some additional finance for expanding instructional television programmes if such expansion were desired by the States, and if the States were also prepared to contribute resources for the purpose. > >A further conference took place on 17th November, 1969. by which time it had become apparent that overseas development of new techniques in electronic aids to teaching, particularly advances in television recording and renlay requirements, had become a significant consideration in relation to any planning for the future development of educational television services. > >Accordingly, it was agreed at the 1969 Conference that a Special Committee comprising Commonwealth and State representatives should be established for the purpose of investigating technological developments with a view to reporting back to a further meeting of Federal and State Ministers. Whilst the committee's investigations are still continuing, they have been complicated by the fact hat a system for the recording and replaying of educational television programmes, to be effective, must meet the every-day educational requirements of simplicity in operation, interchangeability between reproducing units and maximum reliability with minimum technical maintenance. On present indications, it would seem possible that the use of recorded programmes and playback machines may be the answer rather than the use of a transmitted system of educational television programmes; this bears out the wisdom of the Government's original decision not to proceed with the establishment of a transmitted system of educational television services. Whilst it was recognised that a study of the technology developments would not be a short term project, it is essential, nevertheless, to have an informed view on the various issues relating to educational television prior to any decision being taken as to the manner in which educational television services might most appropriately be developed. The position is therefore that the whole question of educational television is still under consideration both from a technological viewpoint and from the aspect of the needs and priorities of State governments in this field. As the Honourable member will be aware, the Australian Broadcasting Commission is* continuing to provide a considerable number of hours of educational television programmes. Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (Question No. 4184) {: #subdebate-59-42-s2 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. ls Australia a member of. the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. 1. If so, will the OECD make a review of Australia's national science policy on the lines of reviews made of Sweden, Greece, Belgium, France, the United -.Kingdom and Germany (together), Japan, the United States of America, Italy, Canada and Norway? {: #subdebate-59-42-s3 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to .the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes, Australia became a member of the Organisation- for Economic Co-operation and Development in June 1971. 1. OECD has under review the directions that its future activities should take in relation to science and technology. No request by OECD for review of the kind referred to has been made. {:#subdebate-59-43} #### School Fees (Question No. 4755) {: #subdebate-59-43-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: >What were the average annual fees for day pupils at (a) Government, (b) Catholic and (c) other non-government (i) primary and (ii) secondary schools in each State and Territory in the most recent year for which information is available. {: #subdebate-59-43-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Government schools do not charge tuitition fees. In some schools fees such as sport, library and textbook fees are levied but information on the extent to which these charges are made is not available. 1. and (c) Because of the differences which exist between schools in the level of fees charged, and the variations in fees for different grades within schools it is not possible to derive average annual fees for non-government schools. Information about fees charged as at June 1970 at nongovernment schools offering courses up to and including the final year of secondary schooling can be obtained from a -1970 publication by my Department, entitled 'Fees at non-government schools'. {:#subdebate-59-44} #### Education: Survey and Department (Question No. 3655) {: #subdebate-59-44-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. When and where have representatives of State Education Departments and his own Department consulted since 8th October, 1970 on his predecessor's letter to the State Education Ministers on 11th September 1970 requesting them to indicate the relative urgency of the capital works mentioned in the summary of the findings of the Nation-wide Survey of Educational Needs which they released on 1st September 1970 (Hansard, J 5th October 1970. page 2198; 29tb October 1970, page 2090; 7th April 1971, page 1638). 1. To what extent has information from nongovernment schools been collected. 2. To what extent has the information from government and non-government schools been analysed. {: #subdebate-59-44-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. There has been no formal meeting between representatives of State Education Departments and my own Department since 8th October 1970. My predecessor, however, attended a meeting of the Australian Education Council in Brisbane at the end of May 1971 when one of the topics for discussion was the Nation-wide. Survey of Educational Needs, and there has of course been contact at Departmental level. All States supplied information to the Commonwealth by March 1971. 1. On 16th December 1970 my Department wrote to Catholic Education Authorities in each State and to all other non-government schools requesting details of their educational requirements. The material provided by non-government schools was collated by May 1971, and by that time information covering 65 percent of ali nongovernment school enrolments had been received. A report on this information was tabled on 5th October 1971. 2. Information provided by government and non-government schools was brought together by officers of my Department and examined in detail before the 1971 Premiers' Conference and Loan Council meetings. {:#subdebate-59-45} #### Teachers Colleges: Education Ministers (Question No. 4668) {: #subdebate-59-45-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the Commonwealth have prior consultation with the States on the provisions of the States Grants (Teachers Colleges) Act 1967 as it did on the provisions of the States Grants (Teachers Colleges) Act 1970 (Hansard 4th November, 1971). 1. If so, on what date and by what means did the Commonwealth have prior consultations with the States on the 1967 Act. {: #subdebate-59-45-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. The Australian Education Council met in February 1966 and was attended for the first time, at the invitation of the Council, by the Minister in Charge of Commonwealth Activities in Education and Research. During the meeting, the . State Ministers put forward a proposal for Commonwealth assistance with capital expenditure on teacher training. The Commonwealth Ministers^ reaction was to invite the Council lo submit their proposal in writing together with details of the position State by State, including each State's share of the program proposed. He undertook after consideration of the additional material to discuss the Proposal with his colleagues. The information requested by the Commonwealth Minister was received on 18th May, 1966. After considering the information supplied by the States, and holding discussions with some States at the Departmental level, a detailed questionnaire was sent at the end of May, 1966, to all States with a view to obtaining an assessment of needs on a basis more comparable from State to State. The information requested was received by my Department between June and September, 1966. After consideration of the material supplied by Slates, a further letter requesting clarification of certain points was sent to all 6 States on 30th. September, 1966. Following an examination of this information, the Minister for Education and Science had discussions with each State Minister during late January and early February, 1967. On the 28th February, 1967, all States were informed that the Commonwealth would support an unmatched capital program for teacher training and that it was proposed to bring down legislation in the autumn session of the Parliament to achieve this purpose. On the -3rd May, 1967, the States Grants (Teachers Colleges) Bill 1967 was introduced into the House of Representatives. {:#subdebate-59-46} #### Commonwealth University Scholarship (Question No. 4722) {: #subdebate-59-46-s0 .speaker-KFU} ##### Mr Gun:
KINGSTON, SOUTH AUSTRALIA asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon Notice: What was the number of (a) applications for and (b) winners of Commonwealth university scholarships for the last 3 years from (1) Immanuel College, Novar Gardens, (ii) Sacred Heart College, Somerton Park, (iii) Woodlands Church of England Girls' Grammar School, Glenelg, (iv) Glengowrie Hish School, (v) Brighton Boys' Technical High School, (vi) Brighton High School, (vii) Marmount College, Seacombe Gardens, (viii) Dover Gardens Girls' Technical High School, (ix) Seacombe High School and (x) Christies Beach High School. {: #subdebate-59-46-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: My Department has the information requested only in respect of students who were attending the schools named in 1970 and who compete for 197] Open Entrance Commonwealth University scholarships. This is set out in the following table: Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships (Question No. 4568) Mt Kennedy asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: <l) In what places in each State and Territory were (a) Commonwealth secondary scholarship examinations held and (b) scripts marked in 1970. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. How many persons were employed in the manual marking of scripts in 1970 in (a) each State and Territory and (b) the Commonwealth. 1. On what dales were the (a) examinations held, (b) scripts marked and (c) results announced. 2. What were the hours during which examiners worked in marking scripts. 3. Was there a maximum number of hours that an examiner could work; if so, what was it. 4. What were the terms of the remuneration for an examiner. 5. What sum was paid in 1970 by the Commonwealth or (a) supervision of examinations and (b) marking of scripts in (i) each State and Territory and (ii) the Commonwealth. 6. In what other ways were costs incurred by the Commonwealth in the administration of the Commonwealth secondary scholarship scheme in 1970 and what were these costs. 7. Can he say what (a) direct and (b) indirect costs were incurred by (i) each State Government and (ii) private education authorities in the administration of the scheme in 1970. {: #subdebate-59-46-s2 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >It is not possible to provide answers toall parts of the Honourable Member's question from the information held by my Department. The Australian Council for Educational Research has a contract with my Department covering the preparation and marking of the Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships Examination. It has been necessary to approach the Council for certain information and I shall pass on to the Honourable Member by letter any additional information the Council is able to provide. Details which are available are as follows: > >(a) Throughout the Commonwealth students normally sit for the CSSE at the school they are attending. In some cases students from small schools attend a larger school inthe districtto sit for the examination. > >(a) The 1970 C.S.S.E. was held on July 29 and 30. > >The results were announced in the various stales on the following dates: > >New South Wales- 21 January 1971. > >Victoria- 27 November 1970. > >Queensland - 30 November 1970. > >South Australia - 2 December 1970. > >Western Australia - 7 December 1970. > >Tasmania- 28 November 1970. > >(a) The Commonwealth paid the following amounts in 1970 for supervision of the examination: In the other 3 States the examination is supervised by teachers and there is no cost to the Commonwealth. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. The Commonwealth paid a total of $110,119 for the costs associated with the manual marking of the Written Expression papers (4 essays, each marked twice). This amount is made up of $72,459 actually paid to markers and $37,660 for other costs such as hire of premises, clerical processing, stationery and telephone. The answer sheets for the other 3 papers are machine scored and the costs are included in the amounts shown for ADP services in Question 8.It is not possible to give a State break-up of marking costs. {: type="1" start="8"} 0. The other costs incurred by the Commonwealth in the administration of the Commonwealth Secondary Scholarship Scheme in 1970 were: 1. Payments to the ACER under a contractual agreement: {: type="i" start="i"} 0. $44,850 for the development of the papers and the supervision of the production of the results for 5 States, 1. $108,630 as reimbursement for the costs associated with the services provided. This is made up of $60,414 for ADP services and $48,216 for printing of the examination papers, 2. $10,000 for research into the CSSE. 3. Payments to State authorities for the conduct of the examination: In South Australia the examination is conducted by the South Australian State Office of the Commonwealth Department of Education and Science whose administrative costs amounted to $1,300. {: type="a" start="c"} 0. Paymentto the New South Wales Department of Education for ADP services associaled with the machine marking of answer sheets and production of results for candidates from that State: $19,816. 1. Printing of forms and stationery used in the administration of the scheme: $6,000. {: type="1" start="9"} 0. This information is not available. {:#subdebate-59-47} #### Education: Research and Development (Question No. 4354) {: #subdebate-59-47-s0 .speaker-5J4} ##### Mr Scholes: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was an application received by the Australian . Advisory Committee on Research and Development in Education for financial assistance to conduct a research project into the use of *per* capita grants by registered schools in Victoria. 1. If so, was the application refused through lack of funds or for other reasons. 2. In view of the value such research could have in determining future fund allocation, will he examine the possibility of financing such a study from departmental funds. {: #subdebate-59-47-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (1), (2) and (3) Applications received by the Australian Advisory Committee on Research and Development in Education for financial assistance to conduct research projects are considered on merit. Whithin the limit of funds available the committee recommends to the Minister for Education and Science, which project should be supported. A list of applicants granted awards in 1971 is contained in the Committee's First Annual Report 1970-71. The Committee is also responsible for advising on priorities in educational research and will be recommending for support investigations into those matters which are judged to have high importance Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships (Question No. 4697) **Dr Klugman** asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: >What was the number of (a) Applicants for and (b) winners of Commonwealth Secondary scholarships for the last 3 years from (i) The Kings School, Paramatta (ii) Tara Church of England School; North Parramatta, (iii) Patrician Brothers High School, Fairfield, (iv) Cerdon College, Merrylands, (v) Merrylands High School, (vi) Fairfield Girls' High School and (vii) Fairfield Boys' High School. {: #subdebate-59-47-s2 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The information requested is set out in the following table; {:#subdebate-59-48} #### Army Bases: Amenities (Question No. 4340) {: #subdebate-59-48-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What arrangements exist for making financial provision for (a) capital expenditure and (b) current expenditure on (i) baby health centres, (ii) pre-schools and (iii) family stores at Australian Army bases where these facilities are not available in nearby civilian communities. 1. What amount has been spent on these facilities at each base in Australia for each of the last 3 years and what have been the sources of funds for this expenditure. {: #subdebate-59-48-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (D- {: type="a" start="a"} 0. The provisions relating to expenditure on community facilities are as follows: {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Baby Health Centres. No authority exists for expenditure provision for baby health centres in Army establishments in Australia. 1. Pre-School Centres. No authority exists for the provision of expenditure for these facilities in Army establishments in Australia. 2. Family Stores. Services Scales and Standards provide the authority for these facilities on a rental basis paid by the Australian Services Canteen Organisation (ASCO), subject to approval by the Departments of Defence and the Treasury, who will take into account the following factors: (!) The availability of existing commercial facilities, including deliveries: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Any future planned commercial expansion or development of the area; 1. The extent of existing facilities; and 2. The number of families to be served. 1. (i), (ii) No authority exists for expenditure on maintenance for Baby Health Centres and Pre-School Centres, (iii) Financial provision for expenditure on maintenance of approved Family Stores is made in the normal Repairs and Maintenance Programme procedure. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The expenditure of Commonwealth funds on maintenance of these facilities by areas is shown below. The source of funds for this expenditure is the Army Repairs and Maintenance Programme. In addition the following facilities were acquired under Division 684 and are now occupied by ASCO. Where the facility is a family store, ASCO occupies it on a rental basis. All amounts shown are those expended from Commonwealth funds. There has been expenditure on pre-school centres in these and other areas. Thi.s expenditure has been provided by the State, the unit and private sources. The extent of this latter expenditure is not known. {:#subdebate-59-49} #### Army: Puckapunyal (Question No. 4636) {: #subdebate-59-49-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What is the (a) establishment and (b) strength of (i) each unit and (ii) each section of each unit at Puckapunyal, Victoria. 1. What (a) number and (b) percentage of these servicemen are (i) regular and (ii) national servicemen. 2. By what (a) number and (b) percentage does the strength exceed or fall short of establishment in each case. {: #subdebate-59-49-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {:#subdebate-59-50} #### Sydney Airport Control: Line-up Clearance Cancellation (Question No. 4851) {: #subdebate-59-50-s0 .speaker-KDV} ##### Mr Charles Jones: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation the following question upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the aerodrome controller at Sydney (Kingsford-Smith) Airport advise East-West Airlines F27 aircraft VH-EWJ lo cancel line-up clearance hold position on 29th January, 1971 at 2135 : 54 hours. 1. If so, at what time did this aircraft take-off and from which runway. {: #subdebate-59-50-s1 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. At 2134:36 hours VH-EWJ was cleared to line-up behind the departing Boeing 727 aircraft, VH-TJA. At that time the aerodrome controller anticipated that there would bc sufficient time between the landing of the Canadian DC8-63 aircraft, CF-CPQ, and that of the succeeding arriving aircraft, a TAA DC9 aircraft VH-TJN, to permit him to clear both VH-TJA and VH-EW.1 for their respective take-offs. Subsequently the aerodrome controller discerned, as a result of the slow movement of CF-CPQ on the runway after landing, that there would not be sufficient time for both of the departing aircraft to safely completed their take-offs prior to the landing of VH-TJN. Thus, at 2135 : 54 hours the aerodrome controller cancelled the line-up clearance previously issued to VH-EWJ and instructed it to remain in ils position on the taxiway leading to the threshold of Runway 16. 1. The aircraft, VH-EWJ, received a further clearance to line-up and hold position on Runway 16 al 2145:45 hours. At 2146:06 hours this aircraft was cleared for take-off on Runway 16. {:#subdebate-59-51} #### Army: Puckapunyal (Question No. 4850) {: #subdebate-59-51-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: >How many (a) officers, (b) other ranks and (c) of all ranks have been engaged at Puckapunyal in each year from 1945 to 1971 inclusive. {: #subdebate-59-51-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Records for the period 1945-1959 are not complete and it would involve considerable administrative effort, to extract the statistics sought for this period. However, these statistics are held for the period 1960-1971 and the required information is contained in the following table. lt should be noted that this table is not completely accurate as personnel who are members of detachments in the Puckapunyal area arc includedin the total strength of their parent units and, consequently, are nol included in the Puckapunyal figures. {:#subdebate-59-52} #### Electoral: Voting Age (Question No. 4117) {: #subdebate-59-52-s0 .speaker-KGN} ##### Mr KIRWAN:
FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: (1.) What is the reason for the Government's decision to wthhold the right to vote from persons 18 to 20 years old when they have the right to vote in Stale elections in certain States. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Will the situation be any different when Adulthood Mills in respect of 18 year old persons are enacted in the various Slates. {: #subdebate-59-52-s1 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the honourable members question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Although legislation has been passed in New South Wales. South Australia and Western Australia lowering the franchise age to 18 years, such legislation is operative in Western Australia only. The right nf persons under the age of 21 years to vole at Western Australian State elections does nol give such persons he right to vote at Federal elections. Nu decision has yet been taken by the Federal Government concerning the lowering of the franchise age for Federal elections. 1. The effect of the enactment of any Adulthood Bills in the various States will be closely examined in relation to the franchise entitlement of 18 year old persons. Housing: Loans (Question NO. 4714) {: #subdebate-59-52-s2 .speaker-KGH} ##### Mr Hansen: asked the Minister for Housing, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has the Government sought guarantees that interest charges on loans by Slate Housing Authorities from Commonwealth funds be less than normal savings bank rates. 1. If nol, where arc the advantages of cheaper money to which he referred on 4th November 1971. {: #subdebate-59-52-s3 .speaker-JTS} ##### Mr Kevin Cairns:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · LP -- The answer to the honourable members question is as follows: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. and (2) Under the new arrangements for Commonwealth financial assistance lo the Slates for housing the Commonwealth is no longer advancing housing moneys to the States at a concessional interest rate. Instead, the States will receive cash grants from the Commonwealth as explained in my Second Reading Speech on the States Grants (Housing) Bill on the 4th November (Hansard PP 3035). The legislation requires that each State housing authority's share of the basic housing grant must be used by it to reduce the economic rentals and purchase payments that, but for the grant, would have had to be charged. Magistrates with Federal Jurisdiction (Question No. 3622) {: #subdebate-59-52-s4 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What are the qualifications and positions of the 7 special magistrates and 3 justices of the' peace in South Australia who have been specially authorised by the Governor-General to exercise judicially federal jurisdiction (Hansard. 17th Feb-' mary 1971. page 227). 1. What are the qualifications for appointment as a stipendiary magistrate in each State. {: #subdebate-59-52-s5 .speaker-JRN} ##### Mr N H Bowen:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP -- The AttorneyGeneral has supplied the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Special Magistrates in South Australia who have been specially authorised by the GovernorGeneral lo exercise federal jurisdiction are practitioner* of the Supreme Court of South Australia. There are at present only 2 justices of the peace in South Australia authorised to exercise federal jurisdiction, the third having recently died. The justices are. or have been, Clerks of Court of the Local and District Criminal Courts Department and have wide experience in court matters. . 1. The qualifications for appointment as a Stipendiary Magistrate in each State are as follows: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. In New South Wales, a person must be at least 35 years of age and must have passed the prescribed examinations, which are the sams as those required for Admission as a barrister or solicitor of the Supreme Court of New South Wales. 1. In Victoria, a person must be at least 35 years of age and must be a barrister or solicitor of the Supreme Court who has been practising for a period of at least 5 years. A person who has passed the prescribed examinations and who is or has been a Clerk of Petty Sessions or Registrar of County Courts for a period of at least 10 years or who has passed the qualifying examination for appointment as Clerk of Petty Sessions or Registrar of County Courts may also be appointed as a Stipendieary Magistrate. 2. In Queensland, any Justice may bc appointed a Stipendiary' Magistrate, but the Public Service Regulations require preference to be given to officers of the public service who have passed an examination qualifying them for admission as harristers or solicitors of the Supreme Court of Queensland or who have passed certain qualifying examinations for promotion to the position of Stipendiary Magistrate and Warden, and Clerk of Petty Sessions and - Mining Registrar, and who have had at least 5 years' experience in Petty Sessions or Wardens Court work or in the Chief Office of the Department of Justice or the Department of Development and Mines in that State. 3. In South Australia, Stipendiary Magistrates are appointed from Special Magistrates on the recommendation of the Public Service Board and with the endorsement of the Chief Justice of that State. Special Magistrares in South Australia are all appointed from the practitioners of the Supreme Court of South Australia. 4. In Western Australia, a person must have passed the prescribed examination in law or be a legal practitioner duly qualified under the Legal Practitioners Act of that State, or be a barrister or solicitor entitled to practice in any State or in the High Court of Justice in England or Northern Ireland. 5. In Tasmania, a person must be a legal practitioner of tit least 5 years' standing. {:#subdebate-59-53} #### Qantas: Financial Directive (Question No. 4483) {: #subdebate-59-53-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: >Will he table, in the House or the Library, the full text of the financial directive which was partly published in the brochure '50 Years of Qantas.' {: #subdebate-59-53-s1 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >The Financial Directive to the Board of Directors of Qantas Airways Limited is currently being revised in the light of changed circumstances and to incorporate a number of directions which have been issued to the Board by letter in recent years. > >The revised document will be similar in substance to the present Directive, but will more adequately reflect the up-to-date guidelines and requirements which the Government wishes the Board to observe in its conduct of the affairs nf Qantas. When the new Directive is completed and approved, consideration will be given to tabling it in the Parliamentary Library. {:#subdebate-59-54} #### Trans- Australian Airlines: Perth-Darwin Service (Question No. 4804) {: #subdebate-59-54-s0 .speaker-KXI} ##### Mr Webb: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. When did Trans-Australia Airlines first apply for a licence to operate a Perth-Darwin service. 1. When was the most recent application made. 2. Has this application been refused. If not, when will a decision be made. 3. If an application has been refused in the past, why was it refused in view of the Government's 2 airline policy. {: #subdebate-59-54-s1 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- -The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. 3rd July 1963. 1. 17th August 1971. 2. No. As soon as possible after the present detailed consideration of all relevant aspects has been completed. 3. Because it was not an appropriate time to reach a definite attitude whether or noi competitive airline services should be introduced between Perth and Darwin. {:#subdebate-59-55} #### Sydney Airport Accident (Question No. 4852) {: #subdebate-59-55-s0 .speaker-KDV} ##### Mr Charles Jones: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation the following question, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was it stated in the Accident Investigation Report DC8-63 Aircraft CF-CPQ and Boeing 727 Aircraft VH-TJA at Sydney (Kingsford-Smith) Airport, New South Wales, on 29th Hanuary 1971 in conclusions on page 36, that the cause of this accident was that the taxying clearance given after landing was misread by the flight crew of CF-CPQ and this error was not detected by the aerodrome controller, who cleared VH-TJA for take-off and that the flight crew of VH-TJA, on detecting the obstructing aircraft, did not adopt the most effective means of avoiding a collision. 1. If so, can the Minister say what procedure should have been adopted by the flight crew of VH-TJA to avoid a collision. {: #subdebate-59-55-s1 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: . {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. On pages 32 and 33 and again on page 35 of the tabled report on the investigation of this accident, the procedures which the Air' Safety Investigation Branch, believe should have been followed by the flight crew of VH-TJA to avoid this collision are described. The essence nf these procedures is set down in conclusions Nos 7 and 8 on page 36 of the report. The relevant portions of these conclusions are: 7. The flight crew of VH-TJA state that, at the commencement of their take-off, they did not observe CF-CPQ on the runway as an obstruction. Nevertheless, CF-CPQ was observed at a time when the take-off could have been abandoned with safety. The pilot in-command of VH-TJA elected to continue the take-off and attempted to overfly the obstructing aircraft. {: type="1" start="8"} 0. Although the obstructing aircraft could have been cleared quite safely by the adoption of a steeper initial climb angle the .pilotincommand of VH-TJA adhered to the normal takeoff technique and the underside of his aircraft came into collision with the tailfin of CF-CPQ Sydney Airport Accident (Question No. 4853) {: #subdebate-59-55-s2 .speaker-KDV} ##### Mr Charles Jones: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, on notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was it stated in the Accident Investigation Report DC8-63 aircraft CF-CPQ and Boeing 727 aircraft VH-TJA at Sydney (Kingsford-Smith) Airport, New South Wales on 29th January 1971 in conclusion No. 7 on page 36 that the flight crew of TJA state that at the commencement of their take-off, they did not observe CF-CPQ on the runway as an obstruction, that nevertheless CF-CPQ was observed at a time when the take-off could have been abandoned with safety, and that the pilot-in-command of VH-TJA elected to continue the take-off and attempted to over-fly the obstructing aircraft. 1. If so, can the Minister state on what grounds the conclusion that the pilot-in-command of VH-TJA could have safely abandoned the takeoff was arrived at. {: #subdebate-59-55-s3 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. The final paragraph of section 2.1 on page 22 of the Accident Investigation Report described the basic performance calculations which led the Air Safety investigation Branch to conclude that the take-off could have been safely abandoned at least from the point where it has been established that the pilot-in-command of VH-TJA has already recognised the existence of an obstruction on the runway using the data produced under the supervision of the Federal Aviation Administration in the U.S.A. by the aircraft manufacture forther purpose of proving its performance capacity for certification purposes it has been calculated that, from the point on the runway where the Captain of VH- TJ A said 'How far ahead is he' the aircraft could have been brought it a halt at a point some 2,140 feet short of the position on the runway of the nose of CF-CPQ at the time of the collision. This calculation adopts reaction delays proposed by the manufacturer and accepted by F.A.A. as being valid for airline pilots. It also makes due allowance for the conditions of gross weight, air temperature, runway slope and headwind component experienced by VH-TJA on the night of this take-off. Nevertheless, at the time this type of aircraft received its certificate of approval, there was no F.A.A. requirements for evaluation of stopping distance on wet runways and so there is no basic data upon which an entirely reliable allowance for extension of the stopping distance under wet runway conditions could be made. Performance data under wet runway conditions is available however, in respect of the Boeing 727-200 series aircraft recently certificated in the' U.S.A. and for which our domestic airlines are currently seeking Government approval to introduce into this country towards the end of 1972. This data has been studied and. so far as the stopping performance of a Boeing 727-200 series aircraft can be considered relevant to the ability of VH-TJA to stop, if indicates that the extension of stopping distance under wet runway conditions would have been of the order of 1,250 ft. Thus it can be said with confidence that the calculation that the aircraft could have been stopped 2,140 ft short of the obstructing aircraft under dry runway conditions, contains more than an adequate margin to account for any extension of the stopping distance under wet runway conditions. These are the principal grounds on which it was concluded that the take-off could have been safely abandoned. Variation: Cockpit Audio Recorders (Question No. 4861) **Mr Berinson** asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. When were cockpit audio recorders first installed in Australian airline aircraft. 1. Is it a fact that the Australian Federation of Air Pilots insisted and the Department of Civil Aviation agreed that the information they contained should not be used in the investigation of air safety incidents or of any accident where the flight crew survived (Department of Civil Aviation Special Investigation Report, Page 12). 2. If so. would this restriction apply when the flight crew survived but one or more passengers did nol. 3. Can he say which countries require cockpit audio recorders to be installed in passenger aircraft and of these, which permit the restriction on use referred to in the Special Investigation Report. 4. Has consideration been given to legislative action to remove this limitation. If so, what is the Government's attitude in the matter. {: #subdebate-59-55-s4 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Australia was the first country to specify a requirement for cockpit audio recorders and recorders were firs; installed in 1964. 1. An agreement was made with the Federation so that the early introduction of this valuable safety aid would not be delayed. The agreement provided that in the event of an accident, the recording would be available to the investigation if: . {: type="a" start="a"} 0. any flight crew member is killed or is injured to the extent that his recollection of events might be impaired; 1. it is indicated that there is an intention to convene a Board of Accident Inquiry; 2. a crew member requests an analysis of the record lo resolve an apparent connection of other evidence; 3. the Air Safety Investigation Branch requests and the flight crew and Federation agree that analysis of the record should be made in circumstances other than the foregoing. 2. Yes, except under the circumstances described in (b), (c) or (d) of the the answer to question 2. 3. The United States of America and Canada are the only other countries known to have published requirements for the carriage of audio recorders but similiar legislation is under consideration in the United Kingdom. In the United States the recording is available to the investigating authority in the circumstances of any notifiable accident or incident but the range of notifiable incidents is less than under Australian legislation, lt is understood that, in Canada, the recording is available to the investigating authority in the circumstances of a notifiable accident and the operator is required to provide the investigating authority with pertinent evidence from the recording in the circumstances of some incidents. The United Kingdom intentions are not known at this time. The United States legislation also specifically precludes use of the audio recording in any civil penalty or certificate proceedings initiated by the Federal Aviation Administration against a crew member and limits publication of recorded data to that determined 'to be pertinent and relevant to the accident.' It was indicated to the Australian Federation that similar principles would be observed in Australia in the event of access to recordings being otherwise unrestricted. 4. lt can be argued that cockpit audio recorders involve, in some measure, considerations such as invasion of privacy and, for these reasons, the Federation was concerned that, in matters such as litigation, their members were exposed beyond the extent of exposure of other members of the community. The Department had some sympathy for the Federation's views but it was hoped that time would demonstrate that the safety advantage of the equipment far outweighed any other considerations. lt is believed that experience, particularly in the United Stales of America, has provided this demonstration and has also shown that far more often than not, the audio recording works to the advantage of flight crew. In the light of this experience it is the intention of the Government to re-open this subject with a view to development of appropriate legislation to remove the present limitations while including some provisions which would give recognition to the unusual nature of this equipment. Air Agreements with United States (Question No. 4759) {: #subdebate-59-55-s5 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: How and - when did Australia act upon President Nixon's policy announcement of 22nd June 1971 that charter services are a most valuable component of international air transportation and that inter-governmental agreements should be sought covering charter services? ' {: #subdebate-59-55-s6 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: President Nixon was declaring United States policy as such on charter services, lt is, therefore, not a question of any adjustment by Australia to it. When appropriate it is a matter for negotiation and reconciliation of the views of each Government as to the conditions, such as pricing and volume, under which charter Mights may be operated. Australian policy has for some time recognised the increasing importance of charter services as a component of international air transportation. Qantas earned over S27m from charter operations in its last financial year. The crucial problem for all Governments, of course, is to develop a proper relationship between scheduled and non-scheduled services so that the stability of the former and therefore, in essence, their availability are not prejudiced. Regarding methods to resolve the situation as between Governments there has been no acceptance as yet of the United States view that comprehensive bilateral agreements comparable to those regulating scheduled services should be immediately negotiated. These agreements may be achieved in the future but for the moment Governments, including Australia, have been proceeding on the basis of ad hoc arrangements renewable from time to time in the light of experience and including certain basic conditions. This method is, in fact, being adopted in relation to our recently achieved understanding with the United States authorities. The aim to to stimulate additional tourist travel between Australia and the United States through agreement on the conditions tinder which a certain number of charter flights can be operated between the 2 countries by such airlines as the United States and Australian Governments approve as carriers to operate them. {:#subdebate-59-56} #### Fitzroy Crossing Aerodrome (Question No. 4810) {: #subdebate-59-56-s0 .speaker-JZX} ##### Mr Collard: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Would Fitzroy Crossing Aerodrome be suitable as an alternative to Broome and Derby if the landing strip and taxiways were upgraded and lengthened to meet the requirements of Fokker Fellowship aircraft. 1. Has any estimate been made of the cost *ot* this upgrading: if so, what is the estimate. 2. Has consideration been given to carrying out the work: if so, with what result. {: #subdebate-59-56-s1 .speaker-KVR} ##### Mr Swartz:
LP -- The Minister for Civil Aviation has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question. {: type="1" start="1"} 0. lt is possible that Fitzroy Crossing could be upgraded to meet the requirements of Fokker Fellowship aircraft but a final assessment could only be made after a most detailed survey and engineering study. It would cost several hundred thousand dollars to so upgrade Fitzroy Crossing and within the current and foreseeable pattern of Fokker Fellowship operations in that area thai expenditure of public funds would not be justified in the light of other aerodromes which are available for this role. 1. No estimate has been made of the cost. 2. There is no proposal to carry out that work. Over-award Payments (Question No. 3551) {: #subdebate-59-56-s2 .speaker-2V4} ##### Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: lt is a fact that the incidence of over-award payment is increasing each year; if so, what was the increase in each of the last 5 years? {: #subdebate-59-56-s3 .speaker-KIM} ##### Mr Lynch:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >No direct comprehensive measure of the incidence of over-award payments over this period is available. > >The Commonwealth Statistician publishes a statistical scries on average weekly earnings per employed male unit and another series showing the weighted average minimum weekly wage rate index for adult males. Figures for the last 5 years are set out below: These 2 series have different coverages and comparisons between them should be treated with reserve, but it is reasonable to infer from the figures that over-award payments have increased faster than minimum wage rates, especially in the last 2 years. {:#subdebate-59-57} #### National Service (Question No. 3925) {: #subdebate-59-57-s0 .speaker-EE4} ##### Mr Uren: asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Are Charles Martin and Geoff Mullens at present in gaol for refusing to comply wilh the National Service Act. 1. Have summonses been served on conscription resisters Paul Fox, Ian Turner, Tony Dalton, Michael Hamel Green, Karl Armstrong and Laurie Carmichael from Victoria, Peter Hornby, Jerrimy Gilling and Mike Matteson from New South Wales, Robert Hall from South Australia, Gary Cook from Western Australia and Steve Padghan from the Australian Capital Territory for refusing to obey call-up notices. 2. If so, is it possible that within a few months there could be 14 young men held as political prisoners in Australian prisons because of their moral stand against conscription. {: #subdebate-59-57-s1 .speaker-KIM} ##### Mr Lynch:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Charles Martin, who was convicted of failing to report for service with the Military Forces and sentenced to imprisonment, was released on 8th October, the day that the National Service Act, 1971 received the Royal assent. Geoffrey Mullen, convicted and sentenced foi the same offence, is serving out his period of sentence. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The cases of the men named are at various stages. Gary Cook, convicted and sentenced on 27lh August, 1971 for failure to report for national service, is in gaol. Laurence Carmichael and Jeremy Gilling applied for and were granted, by a court, total exemption from the liability to render service as conscientious objectors to any form of military service. Action is proceeding in the other cases. Five of the mcn having failed to answer summonses to appear in court in respect of their failure to report for service are now the subjects of warrants of apprehension issued by the courts. One is awaiting determination by a court of his conscientious objector status. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The 14 men mentioned by the honourable member breached the law of the land. However, as evident from (2) above, some men of their own accord end their non-compliance and no question of their imprisonment then arises. {:#subdebate-59-58} #### Trade Unions: Registers of Members (Question No. 4151) {: #subdebate-59-58-s0 .speaker-2V4} ##### Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On how many occasions has the Court acted under sub-section (6.) of section 152 of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act to order the alteration of an organisation's register of members. 1. Is it a fact that persons not entitled to membership in a federal organisation are in fact being included in thi federal register of members of some organisations, and are recording votes in elections for office in the organisation. 2. If so, why has no action been taken to purge the registers of names of persons ineligible for membership. {: #subdebate-59-58-s1 .speaker-KIM} ##### Mr Lynch:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. I am advised that the Commonwealth Industrial Court has never acted under sub-section (6.) of section 152 of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act. 1. and (3) The matter raised by the honourable member is one aspect of a more general and extremely complex problem raised by the Commonwealth Industrial Court in its decision in the case of Moore versus Doyle. In my statement in the House on 7lh December on the Government's proposals tor amending the Conciliation and Arbitration Act I outlined some preliminary steps to deal with the problem and said that the Government's consideration of this matter is continuing with a view to the development of a more comprehensive solution. {:#subdebate-59-59} #### Immigrants: Countries of Origin (Question No. 4569) {: #subdebate-59-59-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Immigration, upon notice; (I.) From which countries did migrants come in 1970-71 and what were the numbers in each case. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. How many (a) doctors and (b) other ancillary medical staff were employed by his Department in each of these countries to screen the health of prospective immigrants. 1. How many of these (a) doctors and (b) other ancillary medical staff were fluent in the language of the prospective migrants at the time of screening, {: #subdebate-59-59-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Mr Forbes:
Minister for Immigration · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable members question is as follows: >Please refer lo the attached tables. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. In the United Kingdom, a staff of 2 donors (including the Chief Medical Officer) is on the establishment of the Department of Health and there are 2 doctors and an ancillary staff of 3, all locally engaged, on the establishment of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. The majority of prospective immigrants in the United Kingdom are medically, examined by local doctors and their reports are submitted to the Chief Medical Officer. The following table shows the number of doctors and other ancillary medical staff employed by the Department of Immigration it. other countries to screen the health of prospective immigrants. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Appointment to overseas positions of Medical Officer on the establishment of the Department of Immigration are made with the collaboration of the Department of Health. Medical Officers who serve overseas in this capacity may be permanent officers of the Department of Health or officers who are temporarily employed for the period of their overseas appointments. All are eligible to undertake tuition in the language of the country of posting and, in fact, are encouraged to do so before departure where this is practicable and iri all instances after arrival in the country of posting. The costs are- met by the Commonwealth. However, except for some who are being posted for a second time to the same country or those who "have taken languages specifically as a course of study or are former migrants from Europe, none could be classified as fluent at the time of posting. However, most could be expected to obtain a working knowledge of the language of the country during their posting. Ancillary (locally engaged) medical staff are fluent in the language of the prospective migrant and where necessary, are required to . interpret for the doctors. {:#subdebate-59-60} #### Expert Group on Road Safety (Question No. 4845) {: #subdebate-59-60-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Who are the members and what are the terms of reference of the road safety committee of which **Mr Justice** Meares is chairman. 1. On what dates has the committee met. 2. When is the commit.ee expected to report. {: #subdebate-59-60-s1 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Membership of the Expert Group on Road Safety is as follows: The Honourable **Mr Justice** C. L. D. Meares, Chairman; **Mr J.** A. Brabham, O.B.E., Brigadier E. F. Campbell, O.B.E., E.D.. **Mr P.** J. Kenny, **Mr P.** G. Pak-Poy, Professor J, S. Robertson, **Mr S.** E. Solomon. O.B.E.. **Mr M.** F. Sweeny, D.F.C., **Mr K.** J. Cosgrove (Executive Member). The Group was formed last year to advise the Minister for Shipping and Transport on road safety. 1. The Group has met on .he following dates: 17th December 1970, 5th March 1971, 16th April 1971, 11th June 1971, 23rd July 1971, 10th September 1971, 8lh October 1971, 5th November 1971, 2nd and 3rd December 1971. 2. The Group is currently undertaking a National Review of the Road Accident Situation in Australia, based on an analysis of Australian and overseas information on major aspects affecting road safety. As part of its review, a National Road Safety Symposium is to be held in Canberra, 14lh-16 h March 1972. On completion of its scientific and objective examination of the situation the Group will bc making its report. Motor Vehicles: Rust- proofing (Question No. 4891) {: #subdebate-59-60-s2 .speaker-KGH} ##### Mr Hansen: asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has he received recommendations for the compulsory rust-proofing of mo. or vehicles. 1. Has he investigated the Ziebart process for rust-proofing as used in the United Kingdom. {: #subdebate-59-60-s3 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. No. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. My Department has not investigated the Ziebart process, which is understood to relate to a bituminous coating used on finished vehicles only when specifically requested. This process is particularly aimed at preventing rust on vehicles used on roads which are treated with chemicals for de-icing purposes. Immigration: Intergovernmental Committee for European Migration (Question No. 4532) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. From what countries and In what numbers have (a) national migrants and (b) refugees come to Australia under the auspices of the Intergovernmental Committee for European Migration in each of the last 5 years. 1. What (a) amount and (b) percentage of the (i) operational and (ii) administrative budget of ICEM has Australia contributed each year. {: #subdebate-59-60-s4 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {:#subdebate-59-61} #### Commonwealth Railways Enginemen: Health (Question No. 4896) {: #subdebate-59-61-s0 .speaker-KWZ} ##### Mr Wallis: asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many Commonwealth Railway locomotive enginemen have been regressed on medical grounds during the last 3 years. 1. What arrangements are made in respect to their wages on regression to a lower paid classification due to medical reasons. 2. Are there any special compensations being considered for these employees due to the possibility of them being regressed at any time for a minor medical disability, and thereby reducing the degree of permanency in their particular classification. {: #subdebate-59-61-s1 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Regressions on medical grounds for each of the last 3 years ending November were: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. If an employee has been classified for a continuous period of not less than 5 years as a Locomotive Engineman Class 1 or a Locomotive Engineman Class II, either collectively, or individually, as at the date of regression, his weekly rate of pay if regressed owing to defective eyesight, defective hearing or other health reasons is: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The rate for the position from which regressed for the first 3 months from date of regression. 1. Thereafter an employee with less than 20 years continuous service as at the date of regression is paid the rate for the position to which regressed plus half the difference between that rate and the current equivalent of the rate received in the position from which regressed. Employees with not less than 20 years continuous service as at the date of regression are paid the rate for the position to which regressed plus 80 per cent of the difference between thai rate and the current equivalent of the rate received in the position from which regressed. The above provisions do nol apply where regression is the consequence of an accident coming within the provisions of the Compensation (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1971, or any subsequent variation thereof, or clue to unsatisfactory causes. Tn all other cases, payment is made at the rale prescribed for the position to which the locomotive engineman is regressed. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Locomotive Enginemen are not regressed for a minor medical disability,. Approval for regression is dependent upon consideration of a report by an authorised medical practitioner following his examination of the employee. The main cause of regression have been hypertension/ blood pressure and defective vision. {:#subdebate-59-62} #### Road Safety (Question No. 4918) {: #subdebate-59-62-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: >Will the Government support at the next meeting of the Australian Transport Advisory Council the system of road signs laid down by the United Nations Convention on Road Signs and Signals or the modified system recommended by the Victorian Road Safety and Traffic Authority. {: #subdebate-59-62-s1 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Australian Transport Advisory Council's Advisory Committee on Road User Performance and Traffic Codes is currently examining the likely, implications which the United Nations Convention on Road Signs and Signals would have for Australia. This committee is also examining in this context a draft manual which is being prepared by the Australian Committee on Road Devices (a committee set up by State engineering and road traffic authorities). Any action taken by the Australian Transport Advisory Council will be in the light of the report and recommendations of its Advisory Committee. Commonwealth Railways: Electric Light Plants (Question No. 4895) **Mr Wallis** asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: >Has the Commonwealth Railways any plan to provide electric light plants for all sidings on the transcontinental and north-south railways where Commonwealth Railways employees are situated, if so, what are its intentions. {: #subdebate-59-62-s2 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >All railway sidings on the North Australia Railway and a sec ion of the Central Australia Railway, from Stirling North to Maree, at which staff are employed have been equipped with lighting plants. When current proposals are completed all railway sidings on the Trans-Australian Railway at which staff are employed will also be fully equipped. . For this purpose 66 portable lighting plants were purchased for use by railway staff last financial year and provision has been made for a further 116 units to be obtained during the current and next financial years. {:#subdebate-59-63} #### Commonwealth Railways: Residences (Question No. 4838) {: #subdebate-59-63-s0 .speaker-KWZ} ##### Mr Wallis: asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many residences are owned by the Commonwealth Railways at its various operational locations. 1. How many of these homes are (a) of brick or brick veneer construction (b) of timber framed construction and (c) temporary dwellings classed as sub-standard. {: #subdebate-59-63-s1 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. There are 982 residences owned by the Commonwealth Railways. 1. Residences constructed of brick, brick veneer or stone total 296; Residences of timber frame construction total 677; Temporary dwellings classed as sub-standard total 9. Shipbuilding Subsidy: Interdepartmental Committee (Question No. 4482) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been drawn to a report in The Australian Financial Review' of 13th October 1971 that the interdepartmental committee reviewing the Tariff Board's report on shipbuilding comprises representatives of the Treasury and the Departments of Trade and Industry, Shipping and Transport and Labour and National Service. 1. Are these Departments represented on the committee. {: #subdebate-59-63-s2 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. It is not the policy of this Government to give information on these matters which concern advice to Ministers and arrangements between Ministers and their advisers. Commonwealth Railways Employees: Injuries (Question No. 4837) **Mr Wallis** asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many Commonwealth Railways employees were injured in the course of their employment and what were the main types of injuries incurred during the last three years.- 1. How many of thtse accidents resulted in employees losing time from their normal employment. 2. How many man hours were lost to the Commonwealth Railways due to industrial accidents during the same period. {: #subdebate-59-63-s3 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The number of employees injured in the past three financial years were: These figures exclude minor injuries at workshops and various locations for which complete statistics are not held and did not involve loss of time from duty, and reported injuries allegedly sustained during employment but not requiring action beyond initial report. The main types of injuries sustained were: . Abrasions, bruises and cuts to hand and leg. Sprains and strains to trunk. Abrasions, bruises etc., to the eye and foreign bodies in the eye. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The number of accidents resulting in employees losing time from their normal employment for the past three financial years were: {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The number of man hours lost to the Commonwealth Railways due to industrial accidents for the past three financial years were: {:#subdebate-59-64} #### Protective Clothing (Question No. 4348) {: #subdebate-59-64-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr Everingham: asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. In which States and Territories, and from what date in each case, have (a) crash helmets, (b) safety belts and (c) other items of protective clothing or bodily restraints been required for users of (i) aircraft, (ii) motor cycles and (iti) other vehicles. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. What action has he taken or does he propose to take to initiate legislation or to discuss legislative proposals with the States in regard to (a) the matters referred to in part (1) of the question, (b) coroners being required to investigate safety factors in road fatalities as thoroughly as in aircraft fatalities, (c) licensing standards for surface vehicles being comparable to those for aircraft and (d) penalties on unsafe vehicle manufacturers being comparable with penalties on unsafe drug manufacturers. {: #subdebate-59-64-s1 .speaker-009OD} ##### Mr Nixon:
CP -- The answer to the honour able member's question is as follows: (1) (a) Crash Helmets {: type="a" start="i"} 0. Aircraft - not applicable {: type="i" start="ii"} 0. Motor Cycles- compulsory wearing of safety helmets by rider and pillion passenger effective as below: New South Wales - 1st ' August 1971 Victoria - 1st January 1961 Queensland- 22nd October 1970 South Australia - 31st December 1967 Western Australia- 20th April 1971 Tasmania - 15th January 1967 Australian Capital Territory - Approved in principle and legislation being prepared. Northern Territory - 24th June 1968 {: type="i" start="iii"} 0. Other vehicles--not applicable Cb) Safety Belts {: type="a" start="i"} 0. Aircraft- regulation 244" (1) of the Air Navigation Regulations' applies to all Australian registered 1 aircraft regardless of area of operation, lt requires seat belts to be worn by all crew members and passengers - 1. during take off and landing; - 2. during, instrument approaches; 3. when an aircraft is flying at less than 1000 feet above the terrain; and 4. at all times during turbulent weather. Commonwealth legislation in this regard first became effective on 10th August 1947. {: type="i" start="ii"} 0. Motor cycles - not applicable (itf) Other Vehicles The Australian Design Rules for Motor Vehicle Safety specify that seat belts be provided in new vehicles from the dates set out below: From 1st January 1969- front seats of all passenger cars and derivatives. From 1st January 1970 - front seats of all motor vehicles except motor cycles, omnibuses,' specially constructed vehicles, and vehicles exceeding 10,000 lbs gross vehicle weight. From 1st January 1971 - rear seals of all motor vehicles except motor cycles, omnibuses, specially constructed vehicles, and vehicles exceeding 10,000 lbs gross vehicle weight From 1st July 1971 Victoria requires that all passenger vehicles manufactured from 1951 to 1968 inclusive be fitted with seat belts for the driver and left side passenger before reregistration or transfer of registration. Compulsory wearing of seat bells was introduced as follows: New South Wales- 1st October 1971 Victoria - 1st January 1971 Tasmania- '15th September 1971 Legislation is being prepared in South Australia, Queensland, Western Australia, the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Territory. {: type="a" start="c"} 0. Other items of protective clothing or bodily restraints Head Restraints The Australian Transport Advisory Council has recommended to Commonwealth and State Governments that all passenger cars and derivatives thereof manufactured on or after 1st January 1972 shall be equipped with head restraints. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. 1 will continue lo work in conjunction with my colleagues on die Australian Transport Advisory Council towards the 'construction of safer vehicles and the implementation of controls over the operational standards of vehicles. {:#subdebate-59-65} #### Rubella (Question No. 4314) {: #subdebate-59-65-s0 .speaker-KYS} ##### Mr Reynolds: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many doses of rubella vaccine ha. been distributed by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories to the various States. 1. How many doses of the vaccine have been used' by the Commonwealth on school children in the Australian Capital Territory and the Nor.hera Territory. 2. In view of the serious nature of the rubella virus would the Minister give consideration to having vaccinations made available as pharmaceutical benefit. 3. In view of the cyclical nature of the disease, is it anticipated that an epidemic will hit Australia in 1972 or 1973. 4. What number of rubella cases have been recorded in Australia in (a) 1970 and (b) 1971. {: #subdebate-59-65-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Rubella vaccine - Issues to Stales to 31*1 October 1971: 1. School-children immunised to 31st October 1971: {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Under Section 9b of the National Health Act, Rubella vaccine is provided at Commonwealth expense for immunisation programmes by Slate and local authorities. With its general availability to the public through these programmes, it has not been found necessary to list Rubella vaccine as a pharmaceutical benefit under Part VH of the National Health Ac:. 1. From the evidence available to my Department, it is not expected that an epidemic of Rubella will occur in Australia in 1972 or 1973. 2. 1970-1,134 cases 1971 (to 13th Nov.)- 513 cases* (a subject to final confirmation by individual States) Note: In New South Wales, Western Australia and Tasmania, Rubella cases are not required by Jaw to be notified to health authorities. Health: Community Centre (Question No. 4730) - **Mr Kennedy** asked trie Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: - Will the Minister investigate the proposal of the Alfred Hospital in Melbourne to establish an experimental community health centre, and will the Government take steps to ensure that Commonwealth financial assistance is made available for the fulfilment of the proposal. {: #subdebate-59-65-s2 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >The respective State Governments are responsible for the provision of State health services including community health ' centres. Under the Commonwealth/Slates financial arrangements, funds are already made available to (he States for this purpose. {:#subdebate-59-66} #### Health: Specialist Medical Practitioners (Question No. 4427) {: #subdebate-59-66-s0 .speaker-JNG} ##### Dr Cass: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many specialist medical practitioners are there in Australia. 1. How many are engaged in active specialist medical practice. 2. How many full-time salaried specialist medical staff are employed in all Australian teaching hospitals. 3. How many specialist medical staff are employed on a sessional basis in all Australian teaching hospitals. 4. How many honorary specialist medical staff are actively engaged in treating patients in Australian leaching hospitals. {: #subdebate-59-66-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) This information is not available, as provision for the registration of specialists as such does not exist in all States and Territories. However, provision has been made in the National Health Act for the recognition of specialists and consultant physicians. This recognition relates to the payment of Commonwealth medical benefits at higher rates for certain medical services when rendered by specialists and consultant physicians, following referral of the patient. At 30 September 1971, there were 5,782 specialists and consultant physicians recognised under the National Health Act. (3), (4) and (5) This information is not available. {:#subdebate-59-67} #### Hospitals: Insurance (Question No. 3760) {: #subdebate-59-67-s0 .speaker-KYS} ##### Mr Reynolds: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Have charges for treatment in outpatient departments of New South Wales hospitals recently been substantially increased. 1. Why has the Commonwealth refused to extend hospital and medical insurance lo patients receiving treatment in these departments. 2. ls it intended lo provide insurance coverage for this purpose in the immediate future. {: #subdebate-59-67-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. On 9th August 1971, the New South Wales Government increased outpatient charges in public hospitals in that State. The amounts charged for these services are, of course, a mutter for determination by the State Government, not the Commonwealth. 1. The Commonwealth Committee of Enquiry into Health Insurance recommended that the Commonwealth and State Governments should work towards the integration of outpatient services into the health insurance scheme. This is one of the recommendations of the Nimmo Committee relating to hospital fees and benefits, consideration of which has not been finalised by the Government 2. The question of including outpatient services within the medical benefits scheme has policy and financial implications not only for the Commonwealth but also for the Stales, and involves negotiations with the State Governments. However, I would point out the majority of registered medical benefit organisations- pay ancillary benefits from the medical funds to outpatients treated at public hospitals. Hospitals: Commonwealth and State Conferences (Question No. 3677) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister representing the. Minister for Health, upon notice: >What has been the (a) date, (b) nature and (c) outcome of any communications between the Commonwealth and any State since May 1970 concerning the cost and method of carrying out the hospital recommendations made by- the Nimmo Committee on 18th March 1969 (Hansard, 3rd May 1971, page 2413). {: #subdebate-59-67-s2 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >On '24th June 1971, relevant recommendations ' by the Nimmo Committee were discussed at the Australian Health Ministers' Conference, the proceedings of which are generally confidential. > >Recommendation 17 by the Nimmo Committee related to honorary and concessional services rendered by the medical profession, including such services rendered in public hospitals. This subject was discussed by Commonwealth and State officers on 23rd July and 24th September 1971. No firm decisions have yet been reached as a result of those discussions. > >In its recommendation 7, the Committee proposed that 'the hospital insurance scheme be rationalised by confining benefit tables to 3 benefits each equal to one of the 3 levels of hospital fees in force in each of the States - standard, intermediate and private wards'. This matter was discussed by Commonwealth and State officers on a number of occasions during the period 1st March-1 st October 1971, prior to the restructuring of hospital benefit table's, which was based on recommendation 7. {:#subdebate-59-68} #### Hospitals: Fees (Question No. 3759) {: #subdebate-59-68-s0 .speaker-KYS} ##### Mr Reynolds: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. What proportion of hospital bed costs are now met by (a) Commonwealth contributions, (b) Fund contributions and (c) other sources. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. What daily subsidy of hospital fees is paid by the Commonwealth in respect of (a) insured and (b) non-insured patients in (i) public, (ii) intermediate and (iii) private wards. 1. What proportion of the fees charged, in each category, does the subsidy represent. {: #subdebate-59-68-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. During the year ended 30th June 1969, the latest year for which comparable figures are available, the average cost per occupied bed/day (including outpatients' costs) in public hospitals was met from the following sources, in the proportions shown: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Commonwealth Benefit1- {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Commonwealth hospital benefits - 11.4 per cent 1. Commonwealth pharmaceutical benefits for in-patients - 4 6 per rent 1. Patients' Fees, including payments of fund benefits to insured patients - 27.3 per cent 2. Other Sources - 56.3 per cent Notes: {: type="i" start="1"} 0. All figures shown above exclude the cost of treatment of tuberculosis patients in tuberculosis hospitals and sanatoria, and in general public hospitals. 1. lt is not possible to show the amount of fund benefits included in 'patients' fees' as a separate amount. 2. 'Other sources' includes Stale Government financial assistance, Commonwealth Grantsinaid to Australian Capital Territory and Northern Territory hospitals, sundry donations, etc. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Commonwealth hospital benefits are payable in respect of patients in approved public and private hospitals as follows: Where a charge is made - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. insured patients - $2.00 per day 1. uninsured patients - $0.80 per day Where no charge is made - {: type="a" start="c"} 0. pensioner patients treated in public wards of approved pu hi ic hospitals - $5.00 1. other patients - $2.00 per day {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The porportion of current hospital fees represented by the Commonwealth payments shown in (2) above is shown below: Health: Hospital and Medical Benefit Funds (Question No. 4586) **Mr Berinson** asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: >What were the total reserves of the medical and hospital funds in each State in each of the last 5 years. > >What measures have been taken to stabilise or reduce these reserves, and what is the anticipated effect of these measures over the next 5 year period. {: #subdebate-59-68-s2 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The reserves of medical and hospital benefits organisations in each State during each of the last 5 years were as follows: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The Government has adopted a policy under which larger organisations' 'free' reserves will generally be limited to the equivalent of three months' contribution income. In the case of smaller organisations more flexibility is being allowed and their 'free' reserves may be permitted to exceed that level in appropriate circumstances. This policy was implemented for medical benefits organisations in conjunction with the introduction of the Health Benefits Plan on 1st July 1970. For hospital benefits organisations, the policy was implemented in conjunction with the increases in hospital charges in each State during 1971. The contribution rates set at the limes of these increases were designed to reduce or, if necessary, increase each 'free' reserve level to an amount equivalent . lo three months' contribution income in the case of the large funds, and equivalent to six months- contribution income in the case of the smaller funds. These reductions or increases are expected to occur gradually. Health: Prescription Fee (Question No. 3456) **Mr Hayden** asked the Minister senting the Minister for Health, notice: repre- upon {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the Senate Select Committee on Medical and Hospital Costs recommended that the 50 cents fee on prescriptions dispensed by friendly society pharmacies should be abolished. 1. If so, does the Government intend to accept this recommendation; if not, why not. {: #subdebate-59-68-s3 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. The requirement for members of friendly society dispensaries to pay the fifty cents patient contribution, in respect of pharmaceutical benefit prescriptions, was introduced with effect from 24th April 1964. Only members who joined friendly society dispensaries after that dale were required to pay the patient contribution, which was then 50 cents. This requirement was introduced because of the growth in membership of friendly society dispensaries after the implementation of the fifty cents patient contribution from 1st March 1960. The Government was concerned that the intended deterrent effect of the patient contribution was in danger of being nullified, firstly, because of the growth in membership of friendly society dispensaries and secondly, because other organisations were seriously considering entering the field of rebate insurance on the fifty cents, patient contribution. During the Government's recent consideration of the level of patient contribution for general pharmaceutical benefits is also considered the position of members of friendly society dispensaries. In the recent amendment to the National Health Act the rights of persons who joined friendly societies prior to 24th April 1964 to receive rebates up to' the full amount of the new patient contribution, viz., one dollar, have been preserved. Health: Hospital Benefit Organisations - Reserves (Question No. 3681) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What have been the aggregate reserves of the hospital benefits organisations in 1970-71. 1. What percentage of contributions did the increase in reserves represent. {: #subdebate-59-68-s4 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The Minister for Health has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The aggregate reserves of the hospital benefits organisations as at 30th June 1971 totalled $103,389,877. 1. The amount by which they increased during 1970-71 was equivalent to 13.8 per cent of the total amount of contributions received by hospital benefits organisations during that year. (Note: the above figures are subject to confirmation.) The above reserves are 'free* reserves, i.e., they exclude amounts set aside in respect of unpresented claims and contributions paid in advance. The Government has adopted a policy under which larger organisations 'free' reserves will generally be limited to the equivalent of 3 months' contribution income. In the case of smaller organisations, more flexibility is being allowed and their 'free' reserves may be permitted to exceed that level in appropriate circumstances. This policy was implemented in conjunction with the increases in hospital charges in each State during 1971. The contribution rates set when these increases occurred were designed to reduce or, if necessary, increase each organisation's 'free' reserve level to an amount equivalent to 3 months' contribution income in the case of the larger funds and equivalent to 6 months' contribution income in the case of the smaller organisations. These reductions or increases are expected to occur gradually. Education: Boarding Schools in Territories (Question No. 4257) **Mr Whitlam** asked the Minister for Education and Science upon notice: >How many places were provided for (a) boys and (b) girls in secondary courses to board at (i) government hostels, (ii) Catholic schools and (iii) other non-government schools in each State and > >Territory in the most recent year tor which information is available. (Hansard, 15th September 1971, page 1312). {: #subdebate-59-68-s5 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The States would need to be approached lo provide an answer to that part of the question applying to their own Territories. Information in respect of the Commonwealth Territories is: Australian Capital Territory {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Government hostels: (a) Nil. (b) Nil. 1. Catholic schools: (a) Nil. (b) Nil. 2. Other non-government schools: (a) Nil. (b) 90. Northern Territory {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Government hostels*: (a) 23. (b) 25. 1. Catholic schools: (a) 21. (b) Nil. 2. Other non-government schools: (a) Nil. (b) Nil. In addition, 2 resident colleges and a children's, village are conducted by non-government organisations in the Northern Territory. These provide residential accommodation for 49 boys and 33 girls but they do not have educational facilities. * The figures given refer to special institutions conducted by the Welfare Division of the Northern Territory Administration. One of these, Kormilda College, ls a residential college for young Aboriginals. {:#subdebate-59-69} #### Education: Independent Schools (Question No. 4437) {: #subdebate-59-69-s0 .speaker-6V4} ##### Mr Daly: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was it stated in the 1969 Budget Speech that it was the Government's policy to assist independent schools so that they would be able to provide places for that proportion of the school population which in the past had sought education at independent schools and to develop in the future in quantity and quality more or less in line with the development of government schools. 1. Was it also stated in the 1970 Budget Speech that the Commonwealth continues to make a significant contribution to the expansion and improvement of Australia's education services. 2. If so, why has the Government not fulfilled these obligations to independent schools and what action does it intend to take to (a) increase per capita payments, (b) provide capital funds for new school buildings and (c) provide funds for teacher education. {: #subdebate-59-69-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. The statement to which the honourable member refers was made by me on 13th August 1969 when I gave the House details of the then new programme of per capita grants for independent schools. 1. Yes. 2. The Government has not failed to fulfil its obligations to Australian education. I refer the honourable member to my statement to the House of 5th October 1971 about the Commonwealth's education programme and also to the Prime Minister's statement to the House today about additional capital grants for government schools *and* additional per capita grants towards the running costs of independent schools to operate from the beginning of 1972. {:#subdebate-59-70} #### Education: Teachers (Question No. 4623) {: #subdebate-59-70-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can he state for each of the last S years for each State and Territory and for the Commonwealth (a) and (i) number of (A) primary and (B) secondary and (ii) total number of school teachers who terminated their services through (A) resignation, (B) retirement and (C) other causes, (b) how many teachers were appointed as new staff (i) to primary schools, (ii) to secondary schools and (iii) in total, (c) what was (i) the net gain of new teachers entering the profession over terminations by employed teachers and (ii) this net gain expressed as a percentage increase compared with the number of teachers already employed and *(d)* what was the percentage increase in pupil population in (i) primary schools, (ii) secondary. schools and (iii) total. 1. What is the anticipated percentage increase in (a) teaching staff and (b) pupil population in (i) primary schools, (ii) secondary schools and (iii) total for each of the next 5 years. {: #subdebate-59-70-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. (a), (b) and (c) Information on losses, gains and increases to the teaching force in each State and Territory is currently being collated by my Department and 1 shall provide information to the honourable member as soon as this is available (d) the percentage increase in pupil population from 1966 to 1970 is as follows: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. (a) Estimates of the anticipated increase in the teaching staff of government, primary and secondary schools for each of the next five years are still being compiled and I shall provide information to the honourable member as soon as it is available, (b) The following table shows the anticipated increase in government school enrolments for each of the years 1971-1975, as estimated by the Department of Education and Science. {:#subdebate-59-71} #### Education School Fees (Question No. 4661) {: #subdebate-59-71-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Education and Science upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What types of fees and charges of all kinds were levied on students attending (a) pre-schools; (b) primary schools and (c) secondary schools under Commonwealth control in (i) the Australian. Capital Territory and (ii) the Northern Territory, in 1970 or in the latest year for which details are available. 1. What was the level of these fees and charges, and what was the total amount raised by schools in (a) each level and (b) all three levels of education in the same year. {: #subdebate-59-71-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. (i) and (ii) The information in this answer to the honourable member's question _ relates to the responsibilities of my Department, i.e. government schools and pre-schools in the Australian Capital Territory and community pre-schools and schools in the Northern. Territory. My Department itself does not make any charges for pupils attending pre-schools, primary or secondary schools under its control in either Territory. However, parent and school committees associated with the pre-schools and schools often set a level of contribution, or fee which the overwhelming majority of parents pay in. respect of children attending. There is considerable variation in the levels set as between schools and the figures given below represent an estimate of the average contribution per child paid at pre-schools, primary and secondary schools, (a) Parents committees of pre-schools seek a contribution from parents which is used mainly to provide and maintain equipment at the pre-school. In the Australian Capital Territory this contribution averages about $8.50 per term for each child; in the Northern Territory the average is a little higher, reflecting the fact that in the Northern Territory most children attending pre-school do so for more sessions per week than do children in the Australian Capita' Territory. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. In primary schools the annual contribution payable to the parent or school commi tee averages between $8 and $10 per year per child. This is used to purchase spc;:al materials, library books and otter equipment for the school additional to that provided by the Government. 1. At secondary schools parents are requested to pay a school fee which averages between $15 and $16 per year per pupil. The revenue thus obtained is used for the purchase of textbooks which are hired to pupils and for the purchase of library books, sporting equipment and other items which the school wishes to have additional to thar supplied by the Government. 1. (a)- {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Australian Capital Territory Pre-schools - $85,000, Primary Schools - SI 75.000. Secondary Schools- $135,000. 1. Northern Territory Pre-school- -$30,000 Primary Schools - $50,000, Secondary Schools- $45,000. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. Australian Capital Territory- s394.000, Northern Territory $125,000. It should be stressed that all of these amounts represent an approximate estimate only. {:#subdebate-59-72} #### Education: Scholarships (Question No. 4848) {: #subdebate-59-72-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What (a) number and (b) percentage of students enrolled in (i) Government, (ii) Roman Catholic, and (iii) other private schools (A) sat for, and (B) were awarded Commonwealth secondary scholarships in 1971 in (I) each State and Territory and (II) the Commonwealth. 1. What percentage of all the candidates was from each of the 3 school systems *in* (a) each State and Territory and (b) the Commonwealth. 2. What percentage of the scholarships was awarded to candidates from each of the 3 school systems in (a) each State and Territory and (b) the Commonwealth. {: #subdebate-59-72-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >This information will not be available to my Department until towards the end of February 1972. I shall advise the honourable member by letter as soon as it becomes available. {:#subdebate-59-73} #### Army: Radiographers (Question No. 4560) {: #subdebate-59-73-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Do all radiographers employed by the Army meet the framing standards required for employment by the Commonwealth Public Service Board. 1. What are the rates of pay for radiographers in (a) the Army and (b) the Commonwealth Public Service. {: #subdebate-59-73-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. In addition to civilian radiographers employed under the Public Service Act, who meet the educational requirements specified by the Commonwealth Public Service Board, military personnel are employed as radiographers at 2 levels. The lower level of the military radiographer structure undertakes a specially designed course conducted, on behalf of the Army, by St Vincents Hospital in Melbourne. They are employed under supervision on appropriate basic radiographical duties. The higher level of radiographer is required to possess the same qualifications which are required for employment as a radiographer in the Commonwealth Public Service and to perform the full range of radiographical work. 1. (a) Radiographer Grade 1 $3959-5179 (Rank range, Private to Sergeant). Radiographer Grade 2 $5179-6479 (Rank range, Staff Sergeant to Warrant Officer Class 2) {: type="a" start="b"} 0. The basic Commonwealth Public Service rates for radiographers are currently: Radiographer, Grade 1 (male) $4028-4823; (female) S3827-4582. Radiographer, Grade 2 (male) $5088-5618; (female) 4834-5337. Radiographer, Grade 3 (male) $5883-6148; (female) S55S9-5841. Radiographer, Grade 4 (male) $6413-6678; (female) $6092-6344. However, special pay rates have been determined by die Commonwealth Public Service Board for radiographers in the following States for recruitment and retention purposes: Radiographer, Grade 1: Queensland (female) $4028-4823. Tasmania (male) $4028-4935: (female) $3904- 4840. Victoria (male) $4028-5004; (female) $3827- 4754. South Australia (female) $4028-4770. New South Wales and Australian Capital Territory (male and female) $4064-5034. Western Australia (male) $4856-6168: (female) $4770-6082. Radiographer, 'Grade 2 Queensland (female) $5088-5618. South Australia (female) $5022-5525. Tasmania (male) $5200-5730: (female) $5092- 5595. *Victoria* (male) $5269-5799; (female) $5006- 5509. New South Wales and Australian Capital Territory (male and female) $5299-5829. Western Australia (male) 6433-6963; (female) $6347-6877. Radiographer, Grade 3 South Australia (female) $5777-6029. Queensland (female) $5883-6148. Victoria (male) $6064-6329 (female) $5761- 6013. New South Wales and Australian Capital Territory (male and female) $6094-6359. Western Australia (male) $7228-7493; (female) $7142-7407. Radiographer, Grade 4 Victoria (male) $6594-6859; (female) $6264- 6516. New South Wales and Australian Capital Territory (male and female) $6624-6889. {:#subdebate-59-74} #### Immigration: Naturalisation of Migrants (Question No. 4619) {: #subdebate-59-74-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What (a) number and (b) percentage of eligible persons has been granted Australian citizenship by naturalisation in the period 1st January 1945 to 30th June 1971 in the alien national categories listed in the 1970-71 Citizenship Return. 1. What (a) number and (b) percentage of such (i) migrants from the United Kingdom, (ii) Irish citizens and (iii) citizens of each country listed in section 7 of the Citizenship Act as have resided in Australia for the necessary period have acquired Australian citizenship by notification. 2. Which countries have been (a) admitted to the Commonwealth since section 7 was passed and (b) declared by the regulations to be countries to which section 7 applies. {: #subdebate-59-74-s1 .speaker-KFH} ##### Dr Forbes:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The following table shows: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. the number of persons of each nationality who were granted Australian citizenship by naturalisation between 1st January 1945 and 30th June 1971; and 1. the estimated percentage of eligible persons of each nationality who were granted Australia citizenship during the same period. {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Australian Protected Persons and British Protected Persons are not aliens under the Citizenship Act 1948-69 and are not required to register as aliens. However, they may only acquire Australian citizenship by naturalization as provided for in sections 14 and 15 of the Act. 1. Prior to 1st July 1955 Byelorussians were included with Russians. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Section 11c of the Citizenship Act 1948- 1969 which came into force on 1st May 1970 provides that persons who have the status of British subject under the Act may acquire Australian citizenship by notification if they have lived in Australia for five years and are not liable to deportation. In the early stages persons becoming Australian citizens by notification were not recorded according to the citizenship of the Commonwealth country they then possessed. However, this is now being done. No statistics are available to show the per centage of eligible persons of each citizenship who have acquired' Australian citizenship by notification. Between 1st May 1970 and 30th June 1971, 4,886 persons became Australian citizens by notification. This represents approximately 0.43 per cent of those eligible as at 30th June 1971 to seek citizenship by this means. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Since the Nationality and Citizenship Act 1948 (now the Citizenship Act 1948-1969) came into force on 26th January 1949, the undermentioned countries have been admitted to the Commonwealth and have either been added to section 7 of the Act or declared by regulation to be countries to which section 7 of the Act applies: Barbardos Republic of Botswana Republic of Cyprus- Fiji The Gambia Republic of Ghana Gyana Jamaica Republic of Kenya Kingdom of Lesotho Republic of Malawi Malaysia Malta Mauritius Republic of Nauru Federal Republic of Nigeria Sierra Leone Republic of Singapore United Kingdom of Tanzania Kingdom of Tonga Trinidad and Tobago Uganda Independent State of Western Samoa Republic of Zambia {:#subdebate-59-75} #### Air Force: Surveillance Flights over Indian Ocean (Question No. 4702) {: #subdebate-59-75-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Air, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many aircraft' were (a) based and (b) used in Western Australia for surveillance of the Indian Ocean in each of the years 1968, 1969, 1970 and 1971. 1. How many reconnaissance flights were scheduled for each day of each week, and what was the number of .surveillance flights in each of these years. 2. Have aircraft been based elsewhere than in Western Australia for surveillance of the Indian Ocean. 3. If so, (a) where were they based, (b) how many were used for this purpose and (c) how many flights were made in each of the same years. {: #subdebate-59-75-s1 .speaker-KHS} ##### Mr Holten:
CP -- The Minister for Air has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: >Surveillance flights over the Indian Ocean include flights made by RAAF aircraft from airfields in Western Australia. For obvious reasons the detailed information requested about these flights cannot be made available. Amy: Pre-schools at Puckapunyal and Seymour (Question No. 4849) {: #subdebate-59-75-s2 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many children of Army personnel are there of pre-school age living at (a) Puckapunyal and (b) Seymour. 1. What (a) number, and (b) percentage of them are attending (0 primary school, and (ii) pre-school at (A) Puckapunyal and (B) Seymour. 2. How many pre-schools are located in (a) Puckapunyal, and (b) Seymour. 3. What is the waiting list for admission to pre-school in Puckapunyal. ' 4. What fees are charged for pre-school educa-. tion at Puckapunyal. 5. ' What plans exist for the increase of preschool facilities at Puckapunyal, what do they include, and when will they be implemented. 6. What were the (a) capital costs of establishing pre-school facilities at Puckapunyal, and (b) the recurrent costs of staffing and maintaining these facilities in 1970. 7. What (a) amount, and (b) percentage of these costs was met by (i) the Department of the Army, (ii) the Victorian Department of Health, (iii) the parents, (iv) the local council, and (v) any other bodies. {: #subdebate-59-75-s3 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The statistics and other information sought are not maintained by the Army. However, officers of my Department are endeavouring to obtain what information is readily available and I will convey this to the honourable member in writing. {:#subdebate-59-76} #### Austraiian Industry Development Corporation (Question No. 3852) {: #subdebate-59-76-s0 .speaker-JTP} ##### Mr Bury:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >Has the Loan Council agreed to exempt the Australian Industry Development Corporation from the obligation to > >obtain specific Loan Council approval to raise all loans for more than 12 months duration exceeding $300,000 and > >raise all overseas loans through and by the Chairman of the Loan Council, which applies to' all loans raised by statutory ' corporations, councils and semigovernmental bodies throughout Australia.' {: #subdebate-59-76-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Under the terms of the Gentlemen's Agreement between the Commonwealth and the States I have been, as Chairman of the Loan Council, in correspondence with State Premiers about the borrowings of the Australian Industry Development Corporation having regard to the special nature of the Corporation and its borrowing requirements. As particulars of Loan Council proceedings and deliberations are confidential, it would not be appropriate for me to provide details of this correspondence. Housing Loans: Sources (Question No. 4036) {: #subdebate-59-76-s2 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon, notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What amounts were advanced in housing loans by (a) savings banks, (b) trading banks, (c) permanent building societies, (d) terminating building societies, (e) life offices, (f) superannuation funds, (g) Commonwealth authorities, (h) State authorities and (i) Territory authorities, in the latest year for which figures are available. 1. Will he give the figures by States and Territories. {: #subdebate-59-76-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows. The information in respect of parts (a), (c), (d), (e), (f) and (h) has been provided by the Acting Commonwealth Statistician, in respect of (b) by the ReserveBank, and in respect of (g) and (i) by the Department of Housing: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Savings Banks - The amounts actually advanced as housing loans by savings banks are not avalable but Table 1 provides details of loans approved to individuals by savings banks for housing finance during the 12 months ended 30th June 1971. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. Trading Banks - New and increased lending commitments to individuals for the building or purchase of their own home by major trading banks in 1970-71 totalled $188m. A dissection of this amount by States and Territories is not available. 1. Permanent Building Societies- Table 2 shows the housing loans advanced by permanent building societies during the 12 months ended 30th June 1971. {: type="a" start="d"} 0. Terminating and Starr-Bowkett Bonding Societies- Table 3 shows the housing loans advanced by terminating and Starr-Bowkett building societies in each State during the accounting years of those societies ended during the financial year 1968-69. Similar information is not available in respect of the Northern Territory and the Australian Capital Territory. (e)Life Offices- Table 4 provides details of new loans paid over by life insurance offices on the security of mortgages over real estate during the 12 months ended 30th June 1971. As the amounts shown relate to loans made on the security of mortgages they do not necessarily relate to the financing of the purchase or construction of dwellings. {: type="a" start="f"} 0. Superannuation Funds- The only information available on the amounts advanced as housing loans by superannuation funds relates to the South Australian Superannuation Fund. During 1969-70 the value of advances on first mortgage made by this fund was$2.1m. 1. The information currently available on housing loans by Commonwealth housing authorities other than the Territory hewing authorities referred to in (i), is as follows. War Service Homes- Table 5 shows the advances for homes under the War Service Homes Scheme in 1970-71. (Jb) State Authorities - The available information on advances made by various State and semigovernment authorities to enable eligible persons to acquire a house is given below. Wherever possible, advances made by State authorities to financial institutions which provide loans, e.g. advances made to building societies from monies provided by the Commonwealth under the terms of the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreements, have been excluded from the figures shown below. New South Wales - In 1969-70 the Rural Bank of . New South Wales, through its Sale of Homes Agency, advanced $17.5m. In addition, the bank provided $0.5m, through its Building Society Agency, direct to applicants in areas where no building societies existed. Victoria- In 1969-70 the State Housing Commission advanced SI 8.6m for the term sale of houses while a further 83.1m was advanced from the Home Finance Trust Queensland - In 1969-70 the Queensland Housing Commission advanced $7.1m in housing loans. Sooth Australia - In 1969-70 the State Bank of South Australia advanced 814.0m in housing loans and $0.9m was advanced by the South Australian Housing Trust on second mortgages. Western Australia - In 1969-70 the State Housing Commission advanced $9. 7m in housing loans. Tasmania - In 1969-70 the Agricultural Bank of Tasmania advanced $2.3m in housing loans. <i) The information, currently available on housing loans by government housing authorities in the mainland Territories is as follows. Australian Capital Territory- The total of new advances made and secured by mortgage by the Commissioner of Housing in the Australian Capital Territory on privately built dwellings in 1970- 71 was S9.6m. In addition, in the Australian Capital Territory, provision is made for tenants of government built houses to purchase their homes, the balance of moneys unpaid on the purchase being covered by a mortgage to the Commonwealth. The amounts of new mortgages raised in this way in 1970-71 amounted to $6.6m. Northern Territory - In the Northern Territory there are three government agencies which make loans for housing purposes. The Administration provides houses for permanent public servants which may be purchased by the tenants. The Housing Commission provides housing for persons of limited means, who are not officers of the Commonwealth or Northern Territory Public Service, and the Home Finance Trustee provides financial assistance for residents for the purpose of construction, purchasing, enlarging or completion of dwellings, and in certain cases for the discharge of mortgages. This ' latter scheme is financed with advances obtained from financial institutions. The total value of new loans made under each of these schemes in the Territory in 1970-71 was: Northern Territory Housing Commission - $2.1m Northern Territory Administration - $2.25m Home Finance Trustee - $0.2m. {:#subdebate-59-77} #### Australian Exports (Question No. 4291) {: #subdebate-59-77-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What Australian exports were covered in the pay-roll tax rebates which amounted to $49.356m in the last financial year. 1. What were the values of these exports. 2. What were the percentages of export income represented by these exports which attracted these rebates. {: #subdebate-59-77-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (1), (2) and (3) Rebates of pay-roll tax allowed in 1970-71 related to increases in exports in the years 1963-64 to 1969-70 inclusive over exports in the relevant base periods. The yearly break-up was as follows: (Theslight discrepancy between the sum of the amounts for each year of export and the total is due to rounding and adjustments in respect of earlier year rebate determinations) It is not practicable to provide a year-by-year dissection of rebates by commodities but the fol lowing table sets out an estimated dissection, by broad commodity classes, based on statistics of rebates allowed in 1970-71 in respect of export increases in 1968-69 and 1969-70 which, as indicated in the table above, accounted for the bulk of the rebates. {:#subdebate-59-78} #### Decentralisation: Concessions (Question No. 4110) {: #subdebate-59-78-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What action has been taken on the recommendations which the Decentralisation Advisory Committee on the Selection of Places outside the Metropolis of Melbourne for Accelerated Development made on 26th September 1967 that (a) depreciation on factory buildings in the country be allowed as a deduction from taxable incomes and (b) income from industrial undertakings in the country be taxed at a lower rate. 1. Is his Department represented on the CommonwealthState Officials' Committee on Decentralisation. {: #subdebate-59-78-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="a" start="i"} 0. The Decentralisation Advisory Committee on the Selection of Places outside the Metropolis of Melbourne for Accelerated Development was appointed by the Victorian Government. After the Committee had reported, the Victorian Government drew the attention of the Commonwealth to the Committee's report, including the recommendations mentioned. The Commonwealth has not, however, taken any action to give effect to those recommendations. In. view of the requirement of Section SI (ii) of . the Constitution, which specifically prohibits the Commonwealth from discriminating in its- taxation laws between States or parts of States, it would in fact be unconstitutional for it to do so. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Yes. {:#subdebate-59-79} #### Payroll Tax Rebates: Papua New Guinea' . (Question No. 3726) {: #subdebate-59-79-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What was the ' value of the rebate of payroll tax allowed in respect of export sales in the latest year for which figures are available. 1. "What amount and percentage of the rebates were allowed in respect of export sales to the Territory of Papua and New Guinea. 2. What ' benefits has this tax concession conferred on (a) Australia and (b) the Territory of Papua New Guinea. {: #subdebate-59-79-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Payroll tax export rebates allowed in the financial year. 1970-71 amounted to $49,356,000. 1. No statistics are available on pay-roll tax export rebates classified by country of destination of exports. 2. (a) Since the introduction of the pay-roll tax rebate scheme for exporters, there have been considerable increases in the value and range of Australian exports. It is not possible to say, however, to what extent these increases would not have occurred in the absence of the rebate scheme, (b) Any benefits to Papua New Guinea from the pay-roll tax rebates scheme would depend on its being able to import a wider range of goods from Australia, perhaps at lower prices, than would otherwise have been the case. It is - not possible to quantify the value of any such benefits. {:#subdebate-59-80} #### Rural Finance Insurance Corporation (Question No. 3892) {: #subdebate-59-80-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On what dates have Treasury officials held discussions with financial institutions on setting up the Rural Finance Insurance Corporation promised by the former Prime Minister on 4th November 1970. 1. With which institutions have discussions been held (Hansard, 18th August 1971, page 199). {: #subdebate-59-80-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Proposals for setting up a rural finance insurance corporation have been the subject of continuing consultation between officers of relevant Commonwealth Departments and also with officers of the Housing Loans Insurance Corporation, the Reserve Bank and the Commonwealth Banking Corporation. Such consultation has taken place over a lengthy period and has not yet been completed. ' > >As for the generality of the honourable member's question, ] should add that the Minister for Primary Industry announced in the House *an* 20th August last that studies were being undertaken by the Bureau of Agricultural Economics on the adequacy of existing rural credit facilities. The outcome of 'those studies will no doubt have a bearing on the question of setting up' a rural finance insurance corporation and its manner of operation. {:#subdebate-59-81} #### Superannuation Funds' Profits Taxation Exemptions ' (Question No. 4680) {: #subdebate-59-81-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >What has been the cost to revenue of tax ." exemptions granted on profits made by (a) private superannuation funds and (b) superannuation funds operated by life insurance companies, where these funds have mct the requirement that they invest 30 per' Cent of their annual increase in asse.s in public securities, for each year since 1961. {: #subdebate-59-81-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Sections 23 (ja) and 23f of the Income Tax Assessment Act exempt from income tax the. income of certain private superannuation funds. The exemption of these funds, however, is generally conditional on their complying with the ' requirements of the '30/20 rule' that' each fund's assets include public securities the cost of which was not less than 30 per cent df the cost of all the assets of the fund, and that its assets include Commonweal. h securities, the cost of which was not less than 20 per cent of the cost bf all the' fund's assets. Certain other superannuation funds which are not subject to the '30/20 rule' may be non-taxable as a result of the special deduction allowed under sec.ion 79. A life assurance company that complies . with the '30/20 . rule' is exempt from tax on that part of its .income that is referrable to policies issued in connexion with certain exempt superannuation funds'. > >Income tax statistics of private superannuation funds exempted under sections 23 (ja) and 23 p are available only in respect of the income years 1961-62, 1965-66 and 1,966-67. These statistics are incomplete as certain exempt .funds are not required to lodge income tax returns every year. However, it is estimated, on the basis of these and other published statistics of superannuation funds, that the cost to income tax revenue of the exemption of such funds (i.e., .the tax that would have been assessed if these funds had been taxed at the rates that apply to. section 23 (ja) ans section 23p funds that do not comply with the '30/20 rule') would have been approximately as follows: > >No income tax statistics are available of superannuation funds operated through life insurance companies. However, from the available statistics relating to the superannuation funds of life insurance companies it has been estimated that for the 1969-70 income year the cost to income tax revenue of exempting, in respect of section 23 (ja) and section 23r- funds, the income of the companies referable to these funds it an amount of the order of $7m per annum. {:#subdebate-59-82} #### Cost of Living Index (Question No. 4602) {: #subdebate-59-82-s0 .speaker-JP8} ##### Mr Berinson:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What effect can be anticipated on the next quarterly cost of living index as a result of increased (a) charges on pharmaceutical benefit prescriptions, (b) telephone charges and (c) postal charges. 1. What is the estimated effect on the weekly cost of living as a result of each .of these increases. {: #subdebate-59-82-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The. answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Commonwealth Statistician has supplied the following information in reply to the honourable member's question. > >Quarterly Consumer Price Index numbers are compiled and published at the earliest passible date following collection of prices al various specified points of time throughout each quarter No official estimates of anticipated changes . in index numbers are prepared and published in advance of the regular collection, calculation and publication of lbc index numbers. . . > >Index numbers and 'index points' contributions to the total index- tor the sub-group 'Costal and Telephone Services' are published regularly in the quarterly Consumer Price Index bulletin (reference no 9.1). The bulletin for December -Quarter 1971, which is expected lo he published on approximately 20th January 1972, will show the effect on the index of changes in postal and telephone charges. Pharmaceutical benefit prescriptions are not included in lbc fist of items of the Consumer Price Index. > >The Statistician does not make any calculations or estimates of the cost nf living. Question upon Notice (Question No. 4672) {: #subdebate-59-82-s2 .speaker-SH4} ##### Dr Klugman: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >When may 1 expect an answer to question No. 3493 which i placed on the Notice Paper on 17th August 1971. {: #subdebate-59-82-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as -follows: >See answer to question No. 3495. {:#subdebate-59-83} #### Road Accidents: Insurance Companies (Question No. 4770) {: #subdebate-59-83-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >When legislation on general insurance is introduced, as Prime Minister Gorton promised to do as a matter of urgency and with all possible speed on 8th September, will steps be taken to include questions on (a) compensation and damages, (b) legal expenses and (c) medical and hospital expenses on the statistical forms submitted annually by insurance companies (Hansard, 26th September 1968. page 1629 and 13th October 1970, page 2065). . {: #subdebate-59-83-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question Ls as follows: >The provisions which' the Government has under consideration for inclusion in the proposed legislation on general insurance are concerned primarily with *the* establishment of a system of supervising the financial soundness of general insurance companies. The scheme of legislation . accordingly does not envisage requiring insurers to furnish information on matters such as those referred to in this question which are not directly relevant to a company's financial soundness. Teachers Colleges: Commonwealth Grants (Question No. 4598) {: #subdebate-59-83-s2 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon no' ice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What amounts were (a) allocated or (b) scheduled for allocation in Commonwealth grants < to each State for teachers colleges in the (i) 1967- 70 and (ii) 1970-73 trienniums. 1. What are the names of the (a) metropolitan and (b) non-metropolitan teachers colleges in each State, and what amount was (i) allocated or (ii) scheduled for allocation to each of these college* in (A) 1967-70 and (B) 1970-73. 2. What amounts and percentages were allocated to (a) metropolitan and (b) nonmetropolitan colleges in (i) each State and (ii) ali States in each triennium. 3. Can he say what (a) numbers and (b) percentages of students enrolled in teachers college.in the last year for which figures are available were enrolled in (i) metropolitan and (ii) nonmetropolitan colleges. 4. In approving allocations of Commonwealth money by Slate Governments for teachers colleges, did he and his predecessors call for adjustments to State building programmes in the interests of balanced development *ir>* metropolitan and non-metropolitan areas; if so, in what instances has this adjustment been called for. 5. If it has not been the practice of his predecessors and himself to consider the objective of balanced development in metropolitan and nonmetropolitan areas, will be introduce the practice. {: #subdebate-59-83-s3 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: For a complete analysis of statistics- related to teacher education I would refer the Honourable Member o the Bureau of Census and Statistics publication 'Teacher Education 1970*. - <5) No. ......... {: type="1" start="6"} 0. Grants made available1 by the Commonwealth under the 1967 and ' 1970 States Grants (Teachers Colleges) Acts were subject to the condition's: . " . ' ' . {: type="i" start="i"} 0. that the choice of location; the priority and the amount of money to be spent on .each project would be a matter for each State to determine, subject to general endorse- ment by" the Commonwealth, and ' ' 1. that 10 per cent of the places so provided to be available .for students who were not' bonded for subsequent -employment in Edution Department schools. {:#subdebate-59-84} #### Importation of Railway Rails (Question No. 4769) {: #subdebate-59-84-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr WHITLAM:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What is the (a) quantity; . (b) value and (c) country of origin of train rails imported in each of the last S years. 1. What was the (a) rate and (b) amount, of duty on them. {: #subdebate-59-84-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: > The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has supplied the following table showing the details of quantity, value, rate of duty and duty paid fo.r imports of railway and tramway rails of iron and steel cleared for home- consumption, during .the years 1966-67 to 1970-71: {:#subdebate-59-85} #### Taxation: Funeral Expenses (Question No. 4862) {: #subdebate-59-85-s0 .speaker-KXI} ##### Mr Webb: asked the . Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that the maximum allowable taxation, deduction for the funeral; expenses of a dependant of a taxpayer is $100. 1. If so, will he take steps to have this allow ance increased in view of increased costs. {: #subdebate-59-85-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourablemember's question is as -follows: . {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. The matter was examined during the preparation of' the 1971-72 Budget but not adopted for inclusion among the measures' announced in my Budget Speech. It will be' kept under review. .'..!. {:#subdebate-59-86} #### Hospital Treatment Costs' . (Question No. 4839) {: #subdebate-59-86-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked .the .Treasurer, uPon notice: >What was the total amount paid for (a) medical and (b) hospital treatment in connection with claims for (i) third party motor vehicle insurance and (ii) workers' compensation insurance ' during each of the' last 5 years for which figures are available. 1 **Mr Snedden-** The answer to the honourable member's, question is as follows: > > The amount; paid for medical and hospital treatment under the categories specified . is not known " i v ' {:#subdebate-59-87} #### Taxation Deductions (Question No. 4799) {: #subdebate-59-87-s0 .speaker-KXI} ##### Mr Webb: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >In view or.' the falling'' value of concessional deductions, will - he review the amount of the- - deductions allowable under sections 82b and 82jof the Income Tax Assessment Act. {: #subdebate-59-87-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >In accordance wilh normal practice, the maximum amounts deductible, under sections 82b and. 82.1 of the Income Tax ' Assessment Act were . reviewed, along wilh other proposals for new .or . extended taxation concessions, when the 1971-72 Budget was being prepared. As the honourable member may recall, an increase in the maximum ' deduction under section 82j was among the measures which 1 announced in my Budget Speech. There does not appear lo be any call for a further review of either matter so soon after the Budget but both may be expected lo be looked into again in the course of preparing the 1972-73 Budget. Non-residential Building: Financing (Question No. 4812) . . {: #subdebate-59-87-s2 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: : {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many overseas investors have informed the Treasury of their plans for financing nonresidential construction .in Australia , since the then Prime Minister asked that they do this in his nationally televised address to the nation -on 29th January 1971. . 1. Have any foreign investors sought approvals for or commenced non-residential building without first notifying the Treasury; if so, how many have done this. . 2. What has been the value of (a) .commencements and (b) approvals for foreign' investment, in non-residential building in each quarter since March 1969. {: #subdebate-59-87-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) On 5lh March 1971 the former Prime Minister announced in the course of a statement on. this subject that, following discussions with a number of properly developers and builders, the' then Treasurer and he had' concluded that no direct action was required by the Government at the time to reduce the rate of commencements of new office buildings. I have arranged for a copy of the statement in question to be provided to the honourable member. (3) (a) and (b) This information, is nol avail- able. However, the 'Annual Bulletin of Overseas Investment' published by the' Commonwealth Statistician provides estimates of annual- direct private overseas investment in building and construction, although these statistics tend to understate overseas investment in non-residential . construction. They do not include ..expenditures undertaken by companies whose major activity is noi building and construction or overseas investment in nonresidential construction financed by institutional _ loan raisings abroad. {:#subdebate-59-88} #### Productivity (Question No. 3544) {: #subdebate-59-88-s0 .speaker-2V4} ##### Mr CLYDE CAMERON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >What was (a) the output per man-hour and (b) the real wages per employee-hour in the .nonagricultural sector of Australian productivity in each year since. 1950. {: #subdebate-59-88-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Information on hours worked is not available in sufficient detail to estimate output per man-hour. 1. Comprehensive information on actual wages per hour worked also is not available for this period. However, the following details of average hourly earnings, ordinary and overtime, for fulltime non-managerial employees in private industry, excluding rural industry and private domestic service, have been collected in surveys conducted by the Commonwealth Statistician in October of each year since 1962, excluding 1965. Table B below shows the results of deflating the figures in Table A by the Consumer Price Index for the December quarter for each of the years shown,' and converting the results to an index number, based December quarter 1962 = 100.0. {:#subdebate-59-89} #### Overseas Investment in Australia (Question No. 4739) {: #subdebate-59-89-s0 .speaker-JO8} ##### Mr Barnard: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can he say which overseas owned companies operating in Australia have made available some degree of Australian equity participation by an offer of shares to the Australian public during the last 5 years. 1. If so, what has been the (a) par value pf the shares offered, (b) issue price and (c) amount of Australian money raised in each case. 2. What has been Ute (a) percentage equity obtained by Australians and (b) percentage of the paid-up capital which was actually subscribed by Australians in each case. {: #subdebate-59-89-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Tho Acting Commonwealth Statistician has advised that, although regular surveys on overseas investment are conducted by the Bureau, information is not collected on overseas owned companies in the detail requested. He has also mentioned that information collected in respect of the operations of individual companies is strictly confidential and under .he provisions of the Census and Statistics Act cannot be disclosed to any person, or to any other government authority. > >The Reserve Bank has advised that it is unable to supply all the information sought. However, it has assembled from published sources the infor- mation shown below about issues since' 1966 of ' equity to Australians by overseas-owned companies operating in Australia and listed on Australian . stock exchanges. The list does not purport to include all issues of equity made by overseas owned companies to Australians in the .period since 1966. {:#subdebate-59-90} #### Steelworks at Jervis Bay (Question No. 3770) {: #subdebate-59-90-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Mr Everingham:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his' attention' been drawn to reports that the New ' South Wales Government will require at least $75m for infrastructure connected with the proposed Armco-Kaiser-Thysser-Huette steelworks at Jervis Bay. 1. Will the 'Commonwealth out of company tax received from the project grant to the State, local and other statutory authorities free of inter-' est charges the amounts necessary to pay off all loan commitments and revenue expenditure on such infrastructure, to ensure the fullest efficiency of the industry, control of pollution and preservation of the ecology and recreational amenities of the area, and ensure that housing and living conditions in the new communities established in .he area will not compare unfavourably wilh those of new planned settlements in the Australian Capital Territory. {: #subdebate-59-90-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Although I am generally aware of the proposals for establishment of such a steelworks, I have no detailed knowledge of the infrastructure requirements that would be involved. I point out that the area in question is in New South Wales and not in Commonwealth territory. Matters relating to infrastructure requirements and financing are therefore within the province of the State Government rather than the Commonwealth Government, and no approaches have been made to the Commonwealth in connection with the financing of either the proposed project itself or infrastructure requirements relating to it. {:#subdebate-59-91} #### Importation of Railway Rolling Stock (Question No. 4038) {: #subdebate-59-91-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What was' the (a) quantity, (b) value and (c) country of origin of railway rolling stock imported during 1970-71. ... 1. What was the (a) rate and (b) amount of duty on it. {: #subdebate-59-91-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has supplied the following table showing the quantity and value of imports of railway rolling stock, by country of origin, cleared for home consumption during 1970-71' together with the rates and amounts of duty thereon. {:#subdebate-59-92} #### State Revenues: Education Surveys (Question No. 4039) {: #subdebate-59-92-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked theTreasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What additional revenue over and above previously anticipated revenue will (a) each State and (b) all States receive' this year, and in each of the next 3 years as a result of arrangements at the Premiers' Conference in June 1971. 1. What will be the additional amount available for education in each case if the Slates allocate for education the same proportion of their new revenue as of their previous revenue. ' 2. What will be the impact of these additional funds upon the deficit revealed by the Nationwide Survey of Educational Needs, taking into account arrears accumulated in that part of the 5-year survey period which has already elapsed. {: #subdebate-59-92-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The State Governments will receive additional, revenue in 3. ways as a result of the decisions made at the Premiers' Conference on 16th June 1971. First, the transfer from the Commonwealth to the Slates of the. right to impose pay-roll tax in the States as from 1st September 1971 is on the basis that there will be offsetting deductions from the Commonwealth's financial assistance grants to the Slates in 1971-72, but. that these deductions : will be less than the loss to Commonwealth revenue (and the gains to the States' budgets at the previously existing rate of tax of 2.5 per cent) resulting from the transfer by amounts estimated at the time of the Conference at $22.7m and now estimated at $22.4m. The distribution between the States of this esti mated gain of $22.4m to the States' budgets in 1971-72 is shown in the Budget paper 'Commonwealth Paymentstoor for the States 1971-72 (see the penultimate line in Table 3), in which document full details are given of the arrangements under which pay-roll tax in the States was transferred to the States. The reduction of an estimated $22.4m in the amounts to be deducted from the Commonwealth's financial assistance grants to the States will also apply to the 'base' used to determine the financial assistance grants for 1972-73 and the 3 subsequent years; and the States will therefore continue to benefit, to an increasing degree, from that reduction in those years. The amount of the benefit in years subsequent to 1971-72 cannot be estimated precisely, as it will depend on the annual increase in each State's population and on the annual increase in average wages in Australia as a whole, these being two of the elements in the formula under which the financial assistance grants increase each year. As an indication of the approximate effect of the abovementioned reduced deduction, however, it is estimated that the total benefit to the States over the 4 years 1971-72 to 1974-75 could be of the order of$100m. It should be explained that the figures mentioned above do not include the coststo the Commonwealth, and the gains, to local government authorities, arising from the Commonwealth's offerto meet the cost of exempting the non-business activities of local government authorities . from payment of pay-roll tax at the 2.5 per cent rate as from the date of transfer of the tax. The cost to the Commonwealth of that offer is estimated to amount toabout $6m in 1971-72 something over $8m in 1972-73,and willincrease further in subsequent years. Secondly, the Commonwealth will pay the States additional, non-recurring . special 'revenue assistance of$40m in 1971-72, to be distributed between the States in proportion to their financial assistance grants.The approximate amounts estimated to be payable to each State are shown' in Table 39 in the Budget paperCommonwealth Paymentsto or for the States 1971-72'. Thirdly, following the pay-roll tax transfer decision, all the States acted to increase the rate of the tax by1 per cent from 2½ per cent to 3½ per cent, as from the transfer date (1st September 1971). Onlyabout three-quarters ofthe full-year effect of that increase will accrue to the benefit of State Budgets in 1971-72. It is estimated that the benefitto the 1971-72 budgets of the 6 States taken as a whole will be approximately $90m in net terms (that is excluding collections which in some States will be made in respectof wages and salaries met direct from their budgets). The benefitsto State budgets in subsequent years from this third factor will depend, obviously, on whether individual States decide to vary the rate of the tax (and if so, by how much and in what direction), as well as on movements in taxable wages and salaries in each State, and cannot, therefore, be predicted. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. This is a hypothetical questionand, if only becacse of the considerations referred to in the answerto (1), I am in no position to answer it. However, I can inform the honourablemember that, on the basis of figures published inthe December 1970 Supplement tothe Treasury Information Bulletin on National Accounting Estimates of Public Authority Receipts and Expenditures, it has been calculated that recurrent expenditures by the State Governments in 1969-70 on education (comprising net current expenditure on goods and services and transfer payments) represented about 36 per cent of total State budgetary expenditures of a current nature in that year. 1. See answer to (2). I add that on 5th October last, in the course of a statement on the Commonwealth Education Programme for 1971- 72, the Minister for Education and Science expressed strong reservations about accepting the figures presented by State Ministers on the needs of government schools. Even if a more precise response were capable of being given to the earlier parts of the question, I would be reluctant to compound the shortcomings to which the Minister referred in that statement by attempting the arithmetical exercises which the honourable member invites me to undertake. {:#subdebate-59-93} #### Superannuation (Question No. 4777) {: #subdebate-59-93-s0 .speaker-KFB} ##### Mr FitzPatrick: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >As a result of the recent amendment to the Superannuation Act as applied to retired public servants, (a) what was the highest gross annual increase and (b) what is now the gross annual income from superannuation of the person concerned. {: #subdebate-59-93-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >It is not the practice of the Superannuation Board to release specific information of this nature. However, I understand from the President of the Superannuation Board that statistics will be prepared of the numbers of pensioners and the range of increases paid as a consequence of the recent Superannuation (Pensions Increases) Act 1971. I will arrange for this information to. be forwarded to the honourable member. {:#subdebate-59-94} #### Housing Loans: Interest (Question No. 4266) {: #subdebate-59-94-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >In the light of subsequent increases in interest rates, will he supplement and bring up to date the - figures which his predecessors gave me on 24lh December 1969 (Hansard, page 1919) and 3rd June 1970 (Hansard, page 2879) on interest rates and monthly repayments for housing loans. {: #subdebate-59-94-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: > The following tables up-date the information provided by my predecessor - on 3rd June 1970 concerning interest rates and monthly repayments for bousing loans. The first table sets out what are understood to be typical ranges both of interest rates charged by the various lending institutions and repayment periods for loans. The second table sets out monthly payment per $1,000 loan under a range of interest rates and periods of repayment. {:#subdebate-59-95} #### Banking (Question No. 4642) {: #subdebate-59-95-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Can be supply details for (a) the early 1930s, <b) the early 1960s and (c) the latest year available, stating the precise year in each case, of (i) (he number of merchant banks operating in Australia, (ii) the volume of cash handled ' by these banks, (iii) their compound rate of. growth {: type="A" start="A"} 0. between the early 1950s and the early 1960s 1. between the early 1960s and the latest year available and (C) over the whole of this period and- (iv) (A) the volume of money supplied from overseas for the activities of these merchant banks and (B) the proportion this represents of the total: 1. Can he also supply details of the number of merchant banks subject to foreign ownership control of (a) less than 25 per cent,- (b) 25 per cent to 50 per cent, (c) 51 ner cent to 75 per cent and (d) above 75 per cent for each of the periods mentioned. {: #subdebate-59-95-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >It is difficult to provide precise ' statistics on merchant banking type companies in Australia because of the lack of a standard definition of the' term 'merchant bank' and because of the rapid growth in the number of companies operating in this general ' area over the last few years. > >These companies usually provide a broad range of financial services including accepting and/or discounting commercial bills, receiving short-term funds and providing or arranging short or medium-term finance. They may also underwrite, sub-underwrite and arrange issues of securities for other clients; they may provide advice to companies on re-organisations, takeovers, and reconstructions; some may also provide portfolio management services. However, it should be noted that some of the companies which provide the full range of activities described above do not call themselves merchant banks and this adds to the difficulty of collecting meaningful statistics. - These problems of definition were outlined by the Deputy, Governor of the Reserve Bank in the 1971 G. L. Wood Memorial Lecture given recently, but some attempt was made in that address to indicate in very broad terms the number of merchant banks active in Australia, their total assets and the degree of foreign ownership. > >Against the foregoing general background, the answers to the specific questions raised are as follows: (1)(i) {: type="i" start="ii"} 0. Not available. However, the Reserve Bank has provided the following information on total assets of 'development finance companies'. The Bitter class of company comprises mainly companies operating in the merchant banking field. {: type="i" start="iii"} 0. On the basis of the figures shown in (ii) above, approximate compound rates of growth per annum are: {: type="i" start="iv"} 0. The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has advised that, for those companies referred to in (ii) above,the inflow of funds from overseas in 1969-70 from both 'direct' and portfolio' investors was approximately $18m. Information is not available on the proportion this represents of the total volume of money handled by these comapnies. Similar in formation on inflow of funds for the early l950's and early 1960's is not available. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Information is not available for the early 1950's and early 1960's. Based on published information covering 26 companies, the following approximate calculations of' foreign ownership proportions appear to apply at present: {:#subdebate-59-96} #### Revenue front Liquor Industries (Question No. 4086) {: #subdebate-59-96-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Mr Everingham: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >Can he say what revenues from the liquor industries accrue to (a) each State and (b) the Commonwealth from each State and Territory from (i) customs, (ii) excise, (iii) licensing and (iv) court fines and other penalties or confiscations, or as a result of breaches of laws concerning the possession, sate, use or abuse of liquor. {: #subdebate-59-96-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has provided the following tables showing customs and excise relating to liquor for 1969-70 and 1970-71 and taxes relating to liquor for 1969-70 (the latest available), in answer to the honourable member's question. It should be noted that excise and customs duties all accrue to the Commonwealth. The net liquor taxes shown, other than those in the Australian Capital Territory and Northern Territory, accrue to the States. State dissection of revenues from customs and excise duties on liquor is based on receipts as recorded by individual Commonwealth Sub-Treasuries. > >The Statistician has also advised that separate figures of court fines and other penalties as requested by the honourable member are not available. {:#subdebate-59-97} #### Subsidies and Bounties (Question No. 3854) {: #subdebate-59-97-s0 .speaker-EE4} ##### Mr Uren: asked the Treasurer,' upon notice: ls he . able to give details of the cost to . the Commonwealth and State Treasuries of all direct and indirect subsidies or bounties paid in 1970-71, and the estimated cost in 1971-72. {: #subdebate-59-97-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Commonwealth assistance to Australian industry is provided by way of bounties, subsidies and other payments, and by way of contributions to promotion and research. Details of those payments for 1970-71 and estimates for 1971-72 are set out in statement No. 9 attached to the Budget Speech. Particulars for 1970-71 of Commonwealth assistance to industry through the taxation system, representing for the most part taxation revenue, foregone through concessions in the income tax law, are also set out in statement No. 9. > >A preliminary estimate of subsidies by State Governments in 1970-71 is $18m. Although a detailed break-up of State subsidies is not yet available, the major part would consist of freight concessions. An estimate for 1971-72- is not yet available. Information is not available regarding assistance to - industry through State taxation systems. {:#subdebate-59-98} #### Oil Companies (Question No. 3503) {: #subdebate-59-98-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr Everingham: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is he able to say whether the capital values and profits of .oil companies in Australia have risen annually for some years although the values of Australian oil fields are shown on their balance sheets as nil. 1. If so, have the capital gains and exported profits of these companies increased faster in total than the capital inflow from the owners. 2. Can he say whether those companies are English, French, Dutch and United States owned except for 88 per cent of Ampol Ltd and 65 per cent of H. C. Sleigh Ltd. {: #subdebate-59-98-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Information on the aggregate value of oil companies' capital assets in Australia is not readily obtainable; particulars for individual companies may be recorded in the returns filed with company registrars. The following particulars of taxable income and net tax in respect of those taxable oil companies in Australia for which oil is the main source of assessable income have been obtained from Supplements to the Taxation Commissioner's annual Reports: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Information published by the Acting Commonwealth Statistician on the inflow of direct private overseas investment in companies in Australia in the oil industry and investment income payable overseas by such companies, is shown below. The coverage of these statistics is not the same as the data given above on taxable income and tax paid by oil companies in Australia. It should also be noted that the figures for investment income payable overseas include undistributed profits of Australian subsidiaries and unremitted profits of Australian branches, as well as the 'exported profits' referred to in the question. Information is not available on the capital gains by oil companies. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The details sought are not readily obtainable: particulars may be. recorded in the returns filed with* company registrars. Government Printer (Question No. 4653) - **Mr Berinson** asked the Treasurer, upon notice: )) Does his Department dispute the evidence given before, the Joint Committee on Publications (First Special Report, of the Joint Committee on Publications, 1971, page 7) that new equipment for the Government Printer estimated to cost $755,000 would probably pay for itself in the first 2 years of operation; if so, what is his Depart.mentment's estimate. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. If not. can the granting of the Commonwealth Government Printer's application be anticipated in the near future; if it cannot be anticipated, why not. {: #subdebate-59-98-s2 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer lo the honourable member's question is as follows: >Although the Government Printer has, on two occasions, sought funds to purchase new computercontroller photo-typesetting equipment, on neither occasion was it possible to prepare firm estimates of likely savings because of the lack of detailed information about the operational characteristics of the equipment under Australian conditions. The estimate given in evidence before the Joint Committee on Publications has not yet been submitted to the Treasury for examination. > >Approval; of any further request for funds will depend on . the Government's assessment of the need, relative to other demands on the Budget, to proceed wilh the purchase. Banking (Foreign Exchange) Regulations (Question No. 3495) **Dr Klugman** asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Does regulation 8 of the Banking (Foreign Exchange) Regulations provide that a person shall not, except wilh the authority of the Reserve Bank of Australia, enter into any contract or agreement with a person resident outside Australia for the performance of any service. 1. If so, is one of the effects of these regula tions and the Banking Act 1959, that certain migrants or foreign visitors of this country, other than from the sterling 'area, could not instruct a solicitor to act for them without the' authority of the Reserve Bank. 2. in view of the possibility in cases of urgency, such as deportation, where this authority may not be obtained in time or at all,, will he consider appropriate amendments to the Regulations to exempt legal services. {: #subdebate-59-98-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Amongst other things, regulation 8(1) of the Banking (Foreign Exchange) Regulations provides that a person shall not, without the authority of the Reserve Bank, enter into any contract or agreement (not being a contract or agreement for the purchase of goods) so that a right to the performance of any service, whether in Australia or elsewhere, is created in favour of a person resident out nf Australia. However, under regulation 38 of the Reserve Bank has, subject to any directions of the Treasurer, powers to grant exemptions from the regulations. The Bank has exempted transactions, coming within regulation 8 (1), with persons resident in the Sterling Area (excluding Hong Kong). 1. it would not be possible to reply to this part of the question without expressing a legal opinion. I mention for the information of the honourable member that the question of the effects of regulation 8 is raised in legal proceedings initiated in the Supreme Court of Western Australia and currently before the High Court. 2. Consideration will be given to the question of exempting legal services after the outcome of the legal proceedings referred to in (2) above is known. Australian Democratic Labor Party: Cost of Election Proposals (Question No. 4607) **Mr Hayden** asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >Did his Department cost the election proposals of the Australian Democratic Labor Party put forward at the 1970 Senate election; if so, will he give details of the costing. {: #subdebate-59-98-s4 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- I am informed that no such costings were prepared by my Department. {:#subdebate-59-99} #### General Motors Holdens Ltd (Question No. 3504) {: #subdebate-59-99-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr Everingham: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What - taxation, duly, primage and ether privileges and restrictions apply to one or more motor vehicle manufacturers as distinct from most manufacturers in Australia. 1. Can he say whether the overseas controlled profits of General Motors-Holdens Limited have been sufficient to buy out the initial Australian capital and to export dividends to the proprietors at an increasing rate without further capital inflow 2. Can he say what would have been the savings lo Australia in (a) foreign reserves and (b) public revenue, assuming an .unchanged rate of safes, if Australia had retained *its* maximum percentage of equity in the Company. {: #subdebate-59-99-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Motor vehicle manufacturers are subject to the local content requirements of the Customs bylaw concessions for manufacturers of passenger motor vehicles, including utilities and panel vans. 1. This question concerns details of the internal financial affairs of an individual company and I understand that annual reports published by General Motors Holden's Pty Limited contain some information of the nature requested by the honourable member. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. No. {:#subdebate-59-100} #### State Revenues and Expenditures (Question No. 4374) {: #subdebate-59-100-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. By what amount and percentage in 1970-71 did each State increase its (a) revenue and (b) expenditure (i) including and (ii) excluding net revenue of business enterprises. 1. By what amount and percentage, in 1971-72 does each State expect to increase its (a) revenue and (b) expenditure (i) including and (ii) excluding net revenue of business enterprises. 2. What amount and percentage of its 1970-71 revenue (a) including and (b) excluding net revenue of business enterprises did each State receive from (i) Commonwealth sources and (ii) its own sources. 3. What amount and percentage of its 1971-72 revenue (a) . including and (b) excluding net revenue of business enterprises does each State expect to receive from (i) Commonwealth sources and (ii) its own sources. {: #subdebate-59-100-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The Acting Commonwealth Statistician has supplied the following information: {:#subdebate-59-101} #### Oil and Rubber Companies (Question No. 3505) {: #subdebate-59-101-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr EVERINGHAM:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >What taxation, duty, primage and other privileges and restrictions apply to one or more (a) oil and (b) rubber companies in Australia as distinct from most manufacturers. {: #subdebate-59-101-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >There are no special privileges granted to, or restrictions imposed on, rubber companies. Petroleum , exploration companies, however, are paid petroleum search subsidies for certain exploratory surveys and drilling operations. The subsidies are repayable where commercially exploitable discoveries are made. In addition, there is a number of special concessions in the Income Tax Assessment Act for petroleum exploration and mining companies, which are described, briefly, as follows: Sections 77c and 77b- Deductions are allowed to shareholders for capital subscriptions to petroleum exploration and mining companies. Division 10aa- Special deductions for capital expenditure incurred in the discovery and mining of petroleum in Australia and Papua New Guinea are allowable to a company so engaged and deriving income from the sale of that petroleum and its products. The income derived is free from tax until all allowable capital expenditure is recouped. Section 44 - Dividends paid wholly and exclusively out of the income thus freed from tax are exempt. Division 10aaa - Capital expenditure incurred on certain facilities used primarily and principally for the transport of petroleum from the well-head to a refinery or other terminal is deductible in equal annual instalments over ten years. The abovementioned concessions are restricted to petroleum exploration and mining companies. The income tax law does not provide for any special concessions to oil refinery and marketing companies as distinct from other manufacturers. {:#subdebate-59-102} #### Income Tax Assessment Act: Section 120 Deductions (Question No. 4789) {: #subdebate-59-102-s0 .speaker-KCU} ##### Mr Drury:
RYAN, QUEENSLAND asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has any review of taxation deductions allowable to co-operative companies under section 120 of the Income Tax Assessment Act been made during the last J financial years; if so, what was the result. 1. What has been the loss in revenue to the Commonwealth as a result of section 120 of the Income Tax Assessment Act during each of the last 5 financial years. {: #subdebate-59-102-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Following the receipt of representations both for their extension and for their restriction or abolition, the provisions of section 120 of the Income Tax Assessment Act were examined several times during the last five financial years. These examinations did not lead to the formulation of proposals for amendment of the provisions in either direction. 1. No statistics are available that would enable a reliable estimate to be made of the increased income tax revenue that would have resulted if deductions under section 120 had not been allowable to co-operative companies. Road Accidents: Cost to the Commonwealth (Question No. 3724) {: #subdebate-59-102-s2 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >Is it possible to estimate the cost of roadaccidents to the Commonwealth in > >rehabilitation of injured persons, > >pensions to injured and bereaved persons, > >hospital benefits, > >payments under the Commonwealth Motor Vehicles (Liability) Act and > >repair and replacement of Commonwealth vehicles. {: #subdebate-59-102-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows;' Inquiries made to date suggest that it may not be practicable to make all the estimates referred to. However, detailed investigation is still proceed- ' ing and I shall advise the honourable member of the outcome as soon as possible. {:#subdebate-59-103} #### Natural Disaster Relief Schemes (Question No, 2316) {: #subdebate-59-103-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >What progress has been made with the examination of natural disaster relief schemes operating in the United States, Canada and New Zealand. (Hansard, 12th June 1970, page 3686) {: #subdebate-59-103-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Completion of the examination of information relating to natural disaster relief schemes operating in United States, Canada and New Zealand has been delayed by pressure of work and staff shortages in the relevant part of the Treasury. However, a considerable amount of work has already been done on the project, and every effort will be made to expedite its completion. Overseas Investment in Australia (Question No. 3465) {: #subdebate-59-103-s2 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. What was the amount of (a) direct overseas investment, classified as (i) undistributed income and (ii) other and (b) portfolio investment, which Australia gained in each year from and including 1950. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. What proportion of total overseas investment was each of these amounts. 1. What proportion of total investment was overseas investment in each of those years. . 2. What was the rate of growth in (a) total investment, (b) local investment and (c) overseas investment (i) expressed as the figure for one year over the previous year, (ii) for the 10-yearly periods 1950-59 and 1960-69 and (iii) for the full period of 20 years. 3. Can the figures supplied in answer to parts (1) to (4) be related to sectors of industry. 4. What has been the proportion of overseas control of each sector of Australian industry for "each of the years from 1950. 5. What has been the gross profit rate, after tax, for (a) all industry and those sections which are (b) locally controlled and (c) overseas controlled. 6. What percentage of gross profits after tax has been retained for (a) industry overall and also those sections which are (b) locally controlled and {: type="a" start="c"} 0. overseas controlled. 7. In relation to part (8) can details be given - to show, in each case, the retained profits expressed as a percentage of new investment. 8. In relation to parts (6) and (7) can he give the rates of growth (a) annually, (b) for the 10- yearly perods 1950-59 and 1960-69 and (c) overall 9. 'What was the (a) amount and (b) rate of growth in return on overseas investment paid 'to overseas investors (i) annually, (ii) for the 10- yearly periods 1050-59 and 1960-69 and '(c) overall.' 10. What was the return on overseas investment paid to overseas investors expressed as a percentage of the inflow of new investment (a) annually, (b) for the 10-yearly periods 1950-59 and 1960-69 and (c) overall. {: #subdebate-59-103-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >Within the limitation of the resources available to me and the many other competing claims upon those resources, it has not been possible, within the time available, to provide the very considerable amount of information which would be needed to answer this question fully while at the same time setting out in detail the important qualifications whch would be required in respect of many .aspects of such an answer. The matter will however be further pursued during the period while the Parliament is adjourned, and if the honourable member would care to have the question, restored to the Notice Paper at the commencement of the Autumn Session an attempt will then be made to provide an answer to it. . {:#subdebate-59-104} #### Petrol Prices Stabilisation and Justification (Question No. 3721) {: #subdebate-59-104-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What has been the expenditure on petrol prices stabilisation in each year since it was introduced. 1. What amount and percentage of the. increase in each expenditure in each year have been due to: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. the increase in consumption and 1. the increase in price of petrol. 2. Is it possible to dissect the expenditure for each State and Territory. 3. To whom and by what means have petrol suppliers been required, to justify the increases in price. {: #subdebate-59-104-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question isas follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (3) A subsidy scheme which commenced in 1965-66 has the aim of reducing the wholesale prices of certain petroleum products in country areas to within 3.3 cents per gallon of capital city prices. Payments to the States for this purpose and corresponding expenditure in the Northern Territory have been as follows: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. Equal increases in capital city and country wholesale prices of the products involved have no effect on expenditure under the scheme, which has increased almost entirely because of increases in consumption. However with effect from 1st December 1969 subsidy rates were revised to take account of changes in costs of delivering petroleum products to country areas. {: type="1" start="4"} 0. Rates of subsidy are' approved by the Minister for Customs and Excise, whose Department maintains a continuing scrutiny of distribution costs. Environment: Commonwealth and State Ministers - . (Question Nm. 404*) 1 **Mr Whitlam** .asked the. Prime ' Minister, upon notice: .' ,. . What steps have been 'taken to secure " membership of he Agricultural' Council. Forestry Council (Hansard.' nth August 1 9'71 . page' 175). Health Ministers Council, Minerals Council (Hansard. 20lh August 1971, page 491). Transport Advisory Council and Water Resources Council (Hansard, 17th August 1971.' page 175) for the Minister for the Environment. Aborigines and the Arts. {: #subdebate-59-104-s2 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP * - The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: lt is the practice for a Commonwealth Minister who is a member of a Commonwealth /State Mtn- ,isterial body of the kind, listed in' the. honourable member's question lo represent, in addition to. his own departmental interests, any other associated Commonwealth interests. In 'appropriate- circumstances -and with the concurrence of the Ministerial members, arrangements could be made. ,for other Commonwealth and State Ministers to attend a ' meeting' and participate in the' discussion ./ items which relate to their portfolios. Works- of. Art: Tax Concessions. (Question "No. 4213) {: #subdebate-59-104-s3 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In w hut circumstances and at 'what rates is sales lax payable on works of- art. ' 1. What would bc the loss to revenue if stiles tax were nol payable on works of art. 2. When ..wa> consideration last .given i to.' removing' sit lei lax from works of art. 3. Has it . yet been possible to calculate the "loss', to revenge if deductions were allowed under the Income Tax Assessment Act for gifts' for works of art lo bc exhibited in' parks or Squares or' buildings open to the public .(Hansard, 28!h October 1966,. page 2423; 8th November 1967. page 2869; 27th November 1968, page 3375: 9th September 1969, page 1013, 21st April 1970. page 1378 and 14th October 1970, page .21,85). 4. Did the State Gallery Directors write to the former Prime Minister seeking an amendment of the Act after their 23rd conference in October 1970; if so, what reply, was sent to them.-; 5. Has it yet been possible to calculate the loss to revenue if exemptions were granted 'under the Estate Duty Assessment Act. for- .works of art devised or bequeathed for exhibition in parks or squares or buildings open to the public. .. 6. Did the State Gallery Directors write to the former Prime Minister seeking an amendment' of the Act after their 23rd Conference in October 1970; if so, what reply was sent to them. 7. Have the mainland States yet been approached to grant exemption, as ' Tasmania does, from death and probate duties in respect of bequests to the Australian National Gallery (Hansard. 1st May 1969. page 1657 and 9th September 1969. page 1013). {: #subdebate-59-104-s4 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: ' 1 {: type="1" start="1"} 0. All works of. an produced in Australia are exempt from sales tax. Those produced overseas are taxable at the rate of lj per cent up/m importation or subsequent sale by wholesale in Australia unless they are covered- by an exemption provision in the law. Exemption applies to imported works of art which are: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. produced overseas by- Australian artists; . 1. produced in New Zealand by New Zealand artists, being works of art to which the - New Zealand-Australia Free Trade Agreement applies; 2. lor continuous public exhibition .free, of charge; . (d) owned by, and for exhibition in, a museum or art gallery controlled by a public authority or by persons . appointed by *a* public authority; or - (e) for use by a body or organisation -which' is entitled to exemption in respect of all goods for its own use. for example the Art Gallery of a. State,, a government department' or a 'municipal council. . ,] 1. Approximately S500.000 per annum. 2. During the . preparation of. the "1971 -72 Budget. ! 3. and (6) As Ho statistics are availably of gifts of works of art for public exhibition' iti the manner ' referred to. it* 'has 'nor'-'been possible to calculate ' the loss ' to" revenue' that would i'éA, It from' the allowance qf such gifts "as' -deductions For income l».' pui puses. Similarly,, it has not been possible to calculate the lo:ss Of revenue (hat would result if bequests, of .'his kind were exempt from 'estate duty. 4. and (7) I am. not' aware of .their having done so. On 5th February 1970,' however, the Organising Director for State Galleries I969"7() forwarded for the then Prime Minister's consideration resolutions relating to income tax and estate duty ' concessions which were passed at the 1969 State Art Galleries Directors' Conference. The first resolution sought an amendment of the Income Tax Assessment Act to allow as' a deduction the value of gifts of works of fine and applied arts to any public Art Gallery in the Commonwealth. 1 understand that the then. Prime Minister replied to the effect that, because the proposed amendment would create serious practical problems, might well open up avenues for tax avoidance and, .in individual cases, involve a cost to revenue of up. to two-thirds of the estimated value of a donated work pf art, irrespective of the actual cost' of the work to the donor, ' he could not hold out hope that the law would be so amended. {:#subdebate-59-105} #### Mutual Life and Citizens Fire and General Insurance Co. Pty Ltd (Question No. 4441) {: #subdebate-59-105-s0 .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr Calwell: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is- it a fact that the Mutual Life and Citizens Fire and General insurance Company Pty Ltd (a) is not a mutually owned and controlled company and (b) . pays its shareholders a 10 per cent dividend each year out of its profits. 1. Will he furnish (a) the name of, (b) the assets value of, (c) the profit made by, (d) the amount paid in dividends by and (e) the number of shareholders in each of the private companies which deal in life assurance business for the latest year for which figures are available. 2. Will the Government take action to increase substantially the deposit of all companies, which deal in life, accident, marine, fire, motor car or any other form of insurance and in which foreign interests have shares or are otherwise financially involved. 3. Will the Government take appropriate steps for a referendum to be held to increase the powers of the Commonwealth Parliament so that valid laws can be' enacted to protect the victims of bushfires, floods, droughts and other natural disasters that are exercisable under the defence power in time of war and are described in legal terminology as being due to acts of God. {: #subdebate-59-105-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the right honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. (a) The MLC Fire and General Insurance Company Pty Limited is a proprietary company and is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Mutual Life and Citizens' Assurance Company Limited. The latter company, whose main business is life insurance, is in turn a subsidiary of The MLC Limited, which is a public, and not a mutual, company, (b) It would appear that the last dividend provided for' by The MLC Fire and General Insurance Company Pty Limited was in the year ended 30th June 1968 and that this dividend was at a rate of 6 per cent on paid-up capital. Allocations of profit for the year ended 31st December 1970 from the life insurance and other operations of The Mutual Life and Citizens' Assurance Company Limited were $3.9,020,455 to policyowners and $1,310,000 to shareholders. The allocation to shareholders represented a dividend of 65.5 per cent on paid-up capital. The MLC Limited has declared total dividends of $1,301,438, which represented 18 per cent on paid-up capital, for the year ended 30th April 1971. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The Insurance Commissioner has advised that none of the companies registered under the Life Insurance Act 1945-1965 is a. private company as defined in section 103a of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936-1970, or a proprietary company as defined in section 15 of the Australian Capital Territory Companies Ordinance 1962-1969. The number of shareholders in each registered life insurance company is not known but extensive information in regard to the other aspects' referred to in the question is contained in the -annual reports of the Insurance Commissioner, the last of which, for the year ended 31st December 1970. was tabled in the House on 6lh May 1971. 1. The Life Insurance Act 1945-1965 provides for close supervision of companies carrying on the business of life insurance and a substantial increase in the deposits to. be lodged by such companies in accordance with the Act is not seen as. necessary to protect the interests of policy owners. . In respect of companies carrying on general (non-life) insurance, ..the Government intends to introduce legislation for the supervision of their activities. The question of whether any change should be made in the deposit requirements applicable to such companies under the present Insurance Act 1932-1966 is under consideration in conjunction with the proposed legislation. 2. The provision of assistance to those adversely affected by natural disasters such as bushfires, floods and droughts is primarily the responsibility of State Governments which are in the best position to assess the need for, and provide, such assistance. However, in the case of major disasters requiring expenditure judged to be beyond the means of a State, the Commonwealth has always been prepared to assist the State concerned in financing relief and restoration measures. In addition, the Commonwealth has always been prepared tq assist, on humanitarian ground, in financing ' expenditure on emergency relief of personal hardship and distress even where relatively small .amounts have been involved. Commonwealth assistance to the States for this purpose, which amounted to more than $127m in the 6" years ending 30th June 1971, does not normally extend to the ' cost - of restoring private assets damaged by natural disasters, it being regarded as the responsibility of the individual to provide against such losses by way of insurance. These arrangements have worked, and are working, effectively and the Government sees no need to propose a referendum concerning them. {:#subdebate-59-106} #### Monetary Control (Question No. 4450) {: #subdebate-59-106-s0 .speaker-8V4} ##### Mr Grassby: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did he slate on 30th September 1971 (Hansard, page 1723) that the Government has no right to dictate to the Reserve Bank how it should act and it would be impudent of the Government to attempt to do so. 1. Does section 11 of the Reserve Bank Act provide that the Federal Executive Council may, by order, determine the policy to be adopted by the Bank. 2. Did the Royal Commission on Monetary and .Banking Systems (Parliamentary Paper No. 74 of 1937, page 206) find that the Federal Parliament is ultimately, responsible for monetary policy and the Government of the day is the executive of Parliament, and it is the duty of the Bank to carry out the policy of the Government 3. If so. does ha reject these powers and abdicate responsibility foc- their use in the national interest or was he unaware of them 4. l( he was unaware of the powers, will he now use i hem when necessary in the community interest. {: #subdebate-59-106-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Acting Treasurer's reply on 30th September related to loans to Goulburn Valley canneries from tha Rural Credits Department of the Reserve Bank of Australia. The Government has no statutory power to direct the Bank on the administration of loans made to particular customers of that Department. 1. Section II of the Reserve Bank Act requires the Reserve Bank Board to keep the Government informed of the monetary and banking policy of the Reserve Bank. In the event of a difference of opinion between the Government and th« Board whether that policy, is directed to the greatest advantage of the people of Australia, section II gives the Government subject to the observance of certain procedures, power to recommend to 1 he Governor-General in Council that he determine the policy to be adopted by the Rank. However, thin section does not empower the Government to make a determination or give a direction to the Reserve Bank with respect to a loan to a particular person. 2. Yes. but the Commission went on to say that this did not imply that there should at any time be interference by the Government in the administration of the (then) Commonwealth Bank. 3. The power conferred on the Government by section 1 1 of th? Reserve Bank Act to determine, in certain circumstances, the monetary and banking policy of the Reserve Bank is an important power which is available for use should the circumstances envisaped in that provision ever arise (see also answer lr> *O).* To date the power has not been invoked. 4. See answer to (4), Motor Vehicle Insurance Companies (Question 740. 4597) {: #subdebate-59-106-s2 .speaker-CV4} ##### Mr Jacobi: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been drawn to statements on 26th October 1971 by (a) the New South Wales Minister for Transport, **Mr Morris,** who accused the Commonwealth Government of toying with legislation to protect motorists against shaky vehicle insurance companies md (b) the Secretary of the Australian Automobile Chamber of Commerce. **Mr A.** Kelly, who claimed, inter alia, that one company which is doing a significant amount of business has a recent working capital deficit of $300,000 and thai there are indications, particularly in New South Wales and Victoria, that there will be more motor insurance company crashes. 1. Has his attention also been drawn to a statement on 27th October J97I by **Mr P.** *Cox.* MX. A., that 3 New South Wales motor insurance companies were on (he verge of collapse. but were still collecting premiums as were a significant number of smaller proprietary companies some of which had a paid-up capital of only S2. 2. Will he take immediate steps to inquire into (a) the names and the financial position of 'ho companies to which these allegations of impending bankruptcies relate and (b) the position facing policy holders as to coverage and their ability to obtain re-insurance with other companies. 3. In relation to (a) Cambridge Insurance Co. Pty Ltd, (b) Mid-Pacific and International Insurance Co. Pty Ltd, (c) East Australian Insurance Co. Ltd, (d) Bonus Benefit Insurances (Underwriters) Pty Ltd, (e) The Oxford Insurance Co. Pty Ltd, (f) Travellers' Insurance Corporation Ltd, (g) Riverina Insurance Co. Ltd, (b) Property Accident Commercial and Executive Insurance Co. Ltd, (i) Motor Marine and General Insurance Co. Ltd, (j) Vehicle and General Insurance Co. (Aust.) Ltd and (k) The Country Traders Mutual Insurance Ltd can he state (i) date of appointment of the liquidator, (ii) total paid-up capital, (iii) total estimated assets, (iv) total estimated liabilities, (v) number of policy holders, (vii Act under which the company was registered and (vii) State or States in which the *company* operated in each case. 4. Has he or his departmental officers had communication with all Suite Ministers regarding their agreement or opposition to Commonwealth legislative control in thi.* field: if so. what were their attitudes. 5. If there has been no communication, why not. 6. Has he been furnished with a working paper by representatives of the insurance companies setting out their proposals as to controls and supervision necessary to retaliate the industry, If so, when did he receive the submission and will he present it to the House. 7. Has his attention been drawn to a statement by the Insurance Brokers Association of Australia on 12 October 1971 calling for control to be established over insurance brokers, either by legislation or through an association. 8. Hus his attention also been drawn to a call by the Australian Automobile Chamber . of Commerce on 26th October 1971 for '.he Government to legislate so that all insurance brokers (a) are registered, (b) must be of good name and character, (c) must have adequate insurance *experience* and (d) must put tip a bond. 9. Is it the intention of the Government to legislate for the control, supervision and regulation of insurance brokers; if not. why not. 10. Has he had communication with the representatives of both insurance companies and brokers as to their agreement or opposition to the Government's legislative control in this field: if so. what were their attitudes. 11. Has he had over 18 months to have a Bill prepared relating to these matters; if so, can he state when the Bill will be introduced. 12. Will the Government give consideration to the establishment of a select committee to inquire into and report upon the subject . matter of the Bill during the months between its introduction and the second reading debate. {: #subdebate-59-106-s3 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: (1)' and (2) 1 have seen reports of statements along these lines." {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The Insurance Act 1932-1966, which is the only Commonwealth legislation at present applicable to companies carrying on general insurance business, does not empower the Treasurer to make such investigations or inquiries. 1. (i) The following information has been obtained - from Press reports and subsequently confirmed by the liquidators concerned: ' {: type="a" start="a"} 0. 28th July 1970 ..,-...' 1. 24tb August 1970 , 2. 26th October 1970..... 3. 26th October 1970 4. 2nd November 1970 5. 1st December. 1970 6. 17th December 1970 7. . 15th February 1971 8. South Australia 1st lune 1971 Western Australia 3rd August 1971 New South Wales 16th August 1971 {: type="1" start="1"} 0. 19th July 1971 (k) 15th June 1971. . (4)(vi)' The following information has- been obtained from the Memorandum and Articles of Association- of each of the companies concerned, submitted in accordance with section 16 of the Insurance Act 1932-1966: {: type="a" start="a"} 0. New South Wales Companies Act, 1961 1. Victoria Companies Act 1961 ' 2. Victoria Companies Act 1961 3. New South Wales Companies Act, 1961 4. Australian Capital Territory Companies Ordinance' 1962-1969. (f)., Western Australia Companies . Act, 1961- -1970. ' ' '" . ' .', (g) New South Wales Companies Act, 1961 (h) New South Wales Companies Act, 1961 (i) Western' Australia' Companies 'Act, 1961 - 1970' ' {: type="a" start="j"} 0. Victoria Companies Act 1961 00 New South Wales Companies Act, 1961. {: type="1" start="4"} 0. (ii), (iii), (iv), (v)' and (vii) The information requested is not available to me. , 1. In his statement of 8tb September 1970, in which he announced the Commonwealth's intention lo legislate for a comprehensive scheme of supervision qf general insurance companies, the former Prime' Minister indicated that he had been in correspondence with the State Premiers on the subject. Since then, there have been a number of meetings _ between Commonwealth and State officials in relation to the proposed legislation. Each Slate has expressed support for the Commonwealth legislating, in this field and is cooperating fully in the formulation of the legislation. 2. See (5) above. 3. A paper was submitted in January this year by representatives of the insurance companies. However, the paper comprised only an outline of tentative views and has been largely superseded as a result of subsequent extensive discussions that have taken place between Commonwealth officers and representatives df insurance organisations. In these circumstanres, 1 do not think it would be appropriate . for mc to present the paper to the House. 4. Yes. 5. Yes. 6. , (11) and (12) My statement in. the House of Representatives on 9th December 1971 containsanswers to these questions. 7. lt would be premature for me to express ;a view on questions of this kind at this stage. {:#subdebate-59-107} #### Monetary Control (Question No. 4641) {: #subdebate-59-107-s0 .speaker-RK4} ##### Mr Hayden: n asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been drawn to a statement in the' August- 1971 issue of Business Indicators, published- by the Australia- and New Zealand Bank, expressing doubt about the . effectiveness of the Government's restrictive monetary- policy, operating principally through control over the trading banks which form only pan of a rapidly expanding financial system, as an inflationary check. 1. What is the Government's attitude to this expanding non-official money market. 2. Is it the intention of the Government to bring the non-official money market under official control for monetary policy purposes. {: #subdebate-59-107-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The. answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Yes. 1. The Government is df course Well aware of the substantia] growth which has occurred over recent years not only in the non-official money market but throughout' the whole of' the Australian money .and capital markets. There has been substantial growth in both the number' and size of financial institutions; a variety of new institutions- has been, established and many existing ones have expanded rapidly; the range and diversity of financial claims issued and actively traded in financial, markets have, also been, considerably enlarged. These various developments may be regarded as a natural accompaniment to Australia's economic expansion paralleling -the increase iri the size and range of our industrial and commercial structure. It is of course important that the infra-structure of the financial system should not lag in adapting to growth and development throughout the economy generally. 2. This question raises a matter of policy which it is not appropriate to answer in the context of a parliamentary question. {:#subdebate-59-108} #### Diesel Fuel Tax (Question No. 4647) {: #subdebate-59-108-s0 .speaker-KEI} ##### Mr Keogh: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What sum in diesel fuel tax was paid by each local authority in Queensland in the financial year 1970-71. 1. In view of the very restricted- financial situation of each of these -local authorities, especially those affected by the drought, and as they are providing essential government services to their communities and are non-profit concerns, will the Government take steps to refund this tax and "exempt the authorities from future-payments {: #subdebate-59-108-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Duty on diesel fuel is paid by oil companies to the Department of Customs and Excise before fuel is removed in bulk quantities from companies' licensed installations. The fuel is subsequently told to companies' customer); at either the dutyinclusive price, or duty-free in the case of holders of certificates exempting them from payment of duty. The Department of Customs and Excise, therefore, has no information on amounts of diesel fuel duty paid by local authorit es or -other individual customers supplied by oil. companies: {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The' excise duty on diesel fuel was first imposed' in 1957 and was designed specifically to remove an anomaly in that fuel' used in- dieselpowered road vehicles was then "tax free' whereas operators of petrol-driven vehicles were required lo pay tax on the fuel they used. The diesel fuel lax, therefore, applies only 'to soc* 'fuel used in road- vehicles transporting persons.. or goods, on public loads.- Local government: authorities, like other- users, -are exempt from duty on- diesel fuel used for 'other purposes: -To grant -'exemption for fuel' used in- road - vehicles- -operated- by 'local government authorities would re-introduce; however,the kind of anomaly -that the present tax -was originally designed to avoid. On the more specific question, of local authorities in .Queensland, . it . would npt .be .passible lo exempt these authorities from the diesel. fuel tax, as Section 51 (ii) of the Constitution prohibits discrimination between States , or parts ..of States in laws. relating to taxation.. < Expert Group on Road Safety (Question No. 4665) ; **Mr Whitlam** asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: What action (a) did the Gorton , Government take and (b) has the McMahon Government taken on . the letter sent to the former Prime Minister by the Royal Australian College of Surgeons on 3rd April 1970 about road accident mortality and morbidity. {: #subdebate-59-108-s2 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- T am informed that: >There is no record of a letter- of 3rd April 1970 to the former Prime Minister from the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons. However, in a letter of 23rd April the College proposed the establishment of a Commonwealth Authority for Road Safety wilh a source of funds and appropriate machinery to support a programme of research into the prevention of road accidents or serious injury. Although thi Commonwealth did , not accept the recommendation for the establishment of a statutory authority, it did take note of the representations of the College of' Surgeons and other interested bodies when it sets up an Expert Group on Road Safety in September last year. This Committee, a group of people expert in the fields of law, safely engineering, medicine, psychology and road and mechanical engineering, advises' the Minister for Shipping and Transport on all aspects of road safety. > >The 'Expert Group is presently engaged in a National Review of the Road Accident Situation. This is a comprehensive examination and evaluation of all available Australian and overseas data relating to each major factor associated with road safety. As part of this Review, the latest information on road safety will be highlighted at a national symposium which will be conducted in Canberra next March by the Expert Group. Australian and overseas experts will present papers at this symposium. > >On completion of the National' Review, ,he Expert Group will be reporting to the Minister for Shipping and Transport on the fundamental causes of road' accidents and how best the road toll iri Australia may' be reduced. > >The Minister for Shipping and Transport, through the Australian Transport Advisory Council, is continuing to take action on a uniform basis throughout Australia to promote road safety, establish safer road systems and ensure the production df safer motor vehicles.. Civil 'Works Programme Expenditure (Question No. 4785) {: #subdebate-59-108-s3 .speaker-JZX} ##### Mr Collard: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What was the expenditure by the. Commonwealth under the Civil Work's Programme in each State and Territory in .each of the years 1969-70 and 1970-71. 1. What was the. expenditure under, the Pro gramme,- on a 'pet capita basis, in each-State and Territory, in each of the. years 1969-70 and 1970- 71 and what is the. estimated expenditure, on the same basis, for 1971-72. 2. What was the total revenue, on a per capita basis, received by the Commonwealth from' each State and Territory in each of the. years 1969-70 and 1970-71 and what is the estimated revenue, on the same basis, for 1971-72. {: #subdebate-59-108-s4 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. and (2) The following information relates to civil works programmes under the control of the Department of Works, the Postmaster-General's Department, and the National Development Commission, details of which are given in the document 'Civil Works Programme' circulated by the Minister for Works. The expenditure figures for each State or Territory represent amounts expended or estimated to be expended on projects located within that State or Territory. It cannot, of course, be assumed that the ' whole of any amounts expended on projects located in a particular State or Territory would necessarily take the form of payments made within that State or Territory. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. The information sought -by the > hutton table member fct nol readily, available' in the form requested, and preparation of the information would require very considerable time and effort. At the same lime, the value of any such dissection of Commonwealth revenues which might be prepared from the information available to my Department w doubtful. Various forms of indirect taxes, while collected on a Stale and Territory basis, may in (act often relate to sales of commodities outside the region from which they are collected and nol lo payments made by persons in that region. Similarly, incomes may be earned in a State other than that in which the income tax is paid. This applies particularly, to taxation paid by companies operating in more than one State. A smaller but significant amount of Commonwealth revenue accrues from Commonwealth enterprises or may take the form of industry, levies and a miscellary of other receipts. Examples of such receipts are Reserve Bank and Commonwealth Banking Corporation profits paid to the consolidated Revenue Fund,' and repayment of principal from the Australian National Airlines Commission and Qantas. In view of a degree of centralisation of such revenue collections, there would be little meaning in a breakdown of these receipts by the States in which the amounts are collected. Child Endowment as Housing Grant (Question No. 4795) **Mr Vvhitiam** asked the Minister for Housing, upon notice: >What is the estimated annual cost of capitalising a family's child endowment as a - housing grant, as is the practice in New Zealand. {: #subdebate-59-108-s5 .speaker-JTS} ##### Mr Kevin Cairns:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The cost of capitalising a family's child endowment would vary with the size of the family, the rates of endowment and the ages of the children. In addition, in New Zealand the amounts advanced when family benefits are capitalised are influenced by family circumstances, the discount rates applicable and expected mortality rates. > >It is therefore impracticable to give a precise answer to the honourable member's question unless appropriate details of the size of family, the ages of the children and the interest rate and other factors are taken into account. {:#subdebate-59-109} #### Department of Works Apprenticeships (Question No. 4873) {: #subdebate-59-109-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister representing the Minister for Works, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many apprenticeships of each kind were (a) made available by the Department of Works and (b) filled in (0 each State and Territory and (ii) the Commonwealth in each year since 1965. 1. Mow many apprenticeships will be made available in 1972. . " {: #subdebate-59-109-s1 .speaker-3V4} ##### Mr Chipp:
LP -- The Minister for Works has provided the following answer to the honourable member's question: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The information requested is set out in a table sent to the honourable member today. In general the number of apprenticeships made available by the Department of Works each year are filled except in the case of the Northern. Territory and the Australian Capital Territory where a few apprenticeships may not be filled because of the lack of suitable applicants. 1. 140. {:#subdebate-59-110} #### Army (Question No. 4874) {: #subdebate-59-110-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What are the names of all units and sections of units located at (a) Puckapunyal, (b) Bendigo and (c) Monegeetta. 1. How many (a) officers, (b) other ranks and (c) all ranks in each section (i) resigned, (ii) reengaged, (Hi) did not re-engage and (iv) were discharged on compassionate grounds or for other reasons in each of the years 1969, 1970 and 1971 to date. {: #subdebate-59-110-s1 .speaker-MI4} ##### Mr Peacock:
LP -- The answer to the honour able member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. (a) {: .page-start } page 4637 {:#debate-60} ### UNIT HQ Puckapunyal Area Regimental HQ, I Armoured Regiment - HQ Squadron, 1 Armoured Regiment > A Squadron, 1 Armoured Regiment B Squadron, 1 Armoured Regiment C Squadron, I Armoured Regiment 21 -Construction Squadron 22 Battalion', Royal Victoria Regiment HQ 26 Transport Company 87 Transport Platoon Puckapunyal Area Supplies - and Transport Company 158 Transport Platoon 8 Supply Platoon 55 Field Bakery Platoon 9 Petroleum Platoon 3 Camp Hospital 17 Dental Unit - Puckapunyal Area Workshop Stores Section .21 Construction Squadron Workshop 26 Transport Company Workshop Puckapunyal Area Workshop 1 Armoured Regiment, Light Aid Detachment Armoured Centre, Light Aid Detachment 18 Psychology Unit Armoured Centre 2 Recruit Training Battalion Royal Australian Army Service Corps Centre Royal. Australian Armoured Corps Band. Army Service Corps - 6 Company Workshops 14 Transport Platoon 15 Transport Platoon. 26 Support Platoon Many soldiers, prior to discharge are posted to command Unallotted Lists and are not shown as having been discharged from a particular unit. In addition, a soldier may have re-engaged while serving in a different location and have been subsequently posted to a unit listed in part (1) of the question. However, if the honourable member requires the statistics, in the categories named, for the Army as a whole, then I will be pleased to provide them. {:#subdebate-60-0} #### Decentralisation: Insurance Companies (Question No. 4914) {: #subdebate-60-0-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Treasurer, upon notice: >When legislation on general insurance is introduced, as Prime Minister Gorton promised to do as a matter of urgency and with ull possible speed on 8lh September 1970, will steps be taken to ensure thai returns furnished to the Insurance Commissioner include information on development and decentralisation measures taken by insurance companies, such ' as what proportion of . (a) their properties, (b) their mortgage loans and (c) their local government 'investments are in (i) the capital city, (ii) the coastal cities and (iii) the inland cities of each State (Hansard, 2nd and 3rd December 1971, pages 4111 and 4112). {: #subdebate-60-0-s1 .speaker-DQF} ##### Mr Snedden:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >The provisions which the Government has under consideration for inclusion in the proposed legislation on general insurance are concerned primarily with the establishment of a system of supervising the' financial soundness of general insurance companies. The scheme of legislation accordingly does not envisage requiring .insurers to furnish information on matters such as those referred to in this question which arc not directly relevant to a company's financial soundness. {:#subdebate-60-1} #### Assistant Ministers' Staff (Question 4122) {: #subdebate-60-1-s0 .speaker-EE4} ##### Mr Uren: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What staff has been provided ' or will be provided to each of the new - Assistant Ministers'. 1. What salary is paid or will be paid' in each case. {: #subdebate-60-1-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. and (2) Assistant Ministers will continue to have available to them the stenographic 'and other services provided to Members of Parliament. Any request for additional secretarial assistance will be considered in the light of experience in the office of the Minister concerned. On this basis, one Clerk/Stenographer has been appointed this week for the Assistant Minister assisting the Prime Minister, with a salary range of. $4281-4403. {:#subdebate-60-2} #### Parliament (Question No. 4299) {: #subdebate-60-2-s0 .speaker-6V4} ##### Mr Daly: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. How many (a) senators and (b) members of the House of Representatives have served in the Australian Parliament since Federation. 1. How many (a) senators and (b) members have served (i) in broken periods and (ii) consecutively for (A) 20. (B) 25, (C) 26, (D) 27, (E) 28, (F) 29 and (G) 30 or more years. 2. What are the names of the senators and members concerned in each case. 3. What was the longest period served in each House . and . who was the (a) senator and (b) member concerned. 4. What was the (a) shortest time served and (b) average time served by members in each House. {: #subdebate-60-2-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- I am advised by the Clerk of the Senate and the Clerk of the House of Representatives that the answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {:#subdebate-60-3} #### Education: Secondary Scholarship Scheme (Question No. 4466) {: #subdebate-60-3-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Was it claimed at the time of introduction of 'the Commonwealth Secondary Scholarship Scheme that its purpose was the advancement of students of ability who might have been prevented on financial grounds from going further in their education' if they did not receive a Commonwealth scholarship. 1. If so, (a) is this objective claimed for the scheme today and (b) what research has been undertaken by (i) his Department or (ii) 'any State Government Department of Education on the effectiveness of the scheme. 2. What sum has been expended on the scheme to 30 th June 1971. {: #subdebate-60-3-s1 .speaker-QS4} ##### Mr Malcolm Fraser:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. At the time the Commonwealth Secondary Scholarship Scheme was established, the stated criterion was that the scholarships would be awarded on merit, lt was also the intention that the scheme might help students who could otherwise miss the final two years of secondary schooling through family circumstances. 1. (a) In accordance with the criterion of merit, scholarships have been awarded on the basis of individual merit as measured by the results obtained in the Commonwealth Secondary Scholarship Examination- and in more recent years weight has also been given to school assessments., lt is considered that the scheme has been a factor in assisting a number of students to remain at school for the final two years of secondary education who might otherwise not have continued. {: type="a" start="b"} 0. (i) Research has been undertaken into the scheme by the Austraiian Council for Educational Research which also prepares the examination used as part of the selection process for Secondary scholarship winners. This research was supported by Commonwealth funds. The Council has published a Report on the effect which winning a scholarship had on the subsequent education and occupational plans of a selected sample of successful applicants. The Council is conducting fur her research into this subject and into , . the distribution of awards and the subsequent academic success of scholarship winners. My Detriment has also been investigating the relationship between results in the Commonwealth Secondary Scholarship Examination and subsequent academic performance of some groups of students. {: type="i" start="ii"} 0. The Queensland Department . of Education has published the findings of studies it has made into: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. the distribution of awards in that State, 1. the subsequent academic performance of scholarship winners in Queensland, 2. the effect of varying the method of selection on the distribution of awards and the subsequent performance of scholarship winners. 2. Expenditure on the scheme to 30th June 1971 was $41. 4m. {:#subdebate-60-4} #### Commonwealth Land (Question No. 4485) {: #subdebate-60-4-s0 .speaker-JOU} ##### Mr Bennett: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In view of the intended possible extension of the Perth Airport and the resultant loss of 1,700 acres of rate-able land at Newburn, has he considered a request submitted by letter from the Belmont Shire on 29th June 1971 and acknowledged by him on J 6th July 1971 relating to the return to the Belmont Shire of certain land compulsorily acquired from the Shire for Army purposes and now no longer used for those purposes. 1. If so, what reply will be sent to the Belmont Shire. {: #subdebate-60-4-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. and (2) 1 replied to the Shire's letter on 27th September and advised the Shire Clerk that a decision on the 18 acres of land at Belmont currently held for defence purposes would be made as soon as practicable. The Defence authorities are currently considering a number of prospective land holdings in Western Austrafia related to possible future requirements there. It will probably be some time yet before a decision can be taken in regard to the land at Belmont. {:#subdebate-60-5} #### Canberra: Cost of Development - Population (Question No. 4530) {: #subdebate-60-5-s0 .speaker-BV8} ##### Mr Calwell: asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: fi) What is the latest estimated population of Canberra. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. What is the total expenditure by. the Commonwealth of Australia on the foundation and development of Canberra to date. {: #subdebate-60-5-s1 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to (he honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. On 30th June 1971 the population of Canberra was estimated to be 141,575. ' 1. From an examination of available records it has been broadly estimated that tuta! . ' capital expenditure by the Commonwealth . on the development of Canberra since 1901 has been of the order of $700m. {:#subdebate-60-6} #### Public Service: Library Officers and Librarians (Question No. 4675) {: #subdebate-60-6-s0 .speaker-8H7} ##### Mr Enderby: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: ls it a fact thai persons possessing library qualifications who enter the Commonwealth Public Service at Third Division level in the library field cannot progress beyond the equivalent of Clerk, Class 4 without acquiring graduate qualifications whereas persons entering the Third Division without qualifications can progress beyond Clerk, Class 4 without acquiring additional qualifications: if so, why. {: #subdebate-60-6-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The Public -Service Board has supplied the following information: >Persons who enter the Third Division of the Commonwealth Service in the library field are employed as Library Officers or Librarians. > >For employment as a Library Officer, a person must have successfully, completed the Registration Examination of the Library Association of Australia or possess an equivalent qualification, lt is a requirement of the Association that applicants for this examination be qualified for matriculation at an Australian University. > >Advancement as a Library Officer is possible from Library Officer Grade 1 to Library Officer Grade 2. Because they possess a standard of general education which satisfies' the minimum requirements lor employment in the Third Division of the Service, Library Officers are also eligible to seek promotion to positions in the clerical administrative work area including position* of Clerk Class 4 and higher. > >For employment as a Librarian, a person ia required to possess qualifications which admit to . a degree of a University or a diploma of a College of Advanced Education and to have successfully completed the Registration Examination of the Library Association of Australia or equivalent. > >Library Officers who obtain a degree or diploma are therefore eligible to seek advancement in the librarian structure. As Third Division officers, they, are also eligible for advancement in the clerical administrative work area generally, as. mentioned above. {:#subdebate-60-7} #### Social Services: Migrant Discontent (Question No. 4741) {: #subdebate-60-7-s0 .speaker-K9M} ##### Mr Les Johnson:
HUGHES, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: (.1) Did he receive recently a telegram from the Federation of Netherlands Societies Limited indicating that the inadequacy of Australian social services is causing unrest among migrants and is one of the main reasons why so many migrants return to the country of their birth. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. If so. what are the precise terms of the telegram and the nature of the reply. 1. ls there substance in the complaint; if so, what steps are being taken to remedy the position. {: #subdebate-60-7-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="A" start="I"} 0. and (2) A telegram was received from a gentleman, signing himself as Chairman, apparently reporting the views on Australian social services of members al a general meeting of the Federation of Netherlands Societies in New South Wale. No reply was sent to the telegram because it contained neither the address of the sender nor of the organisation referred to and these, could not be obtained from sources available in my Department. {: type="1" start="3"} 0. Migrant departures are the subject of a current study by the Immigration Advisory Council. I am advised that previous studies by the Council of the settler departure rate ha Ve shown that it was not unduly high. The evidence examined did not show 'inadequacy of social services' as one of - the main reasons for return, but that departures generally resulted from a complex of causes. These derive from the individual's own personality as much as from material circumstances encountered in Australia. {:#subdebate-60-8} #### Unemployment Relief (Question No. 4750) {: #subdebate-60-8-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Did the Premier of New South Wales writs to him on 25th June 1971 requesting special Commonwealth grants for works to relieve rural unemployment (Hansard. 10th September 1971, page 1149). 1. Did he reject the request on 9th August 1971. 2. Did the Premier make the request a second time on 26th August 1971. 3. When did he reject this second request. 4. Has the Premier made the request a third time on the ground that the New South Wales wheat crop has failed; if so, when. {: #subdebate-60-8-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The. answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. to (5) 1 have had correspondence with the Premier of New South Wales concerning the rural unemployment situation in that State. On the subject of rural unemployment in general, 1 refer the honourable member to my recent statement on the proposed scheme of Commonwealth grants for employment - creating activities in non-metropolitan areas (Hansard, 2nd December 1971, pages 4010 to 4012). {:#subdebate-60-9} #### Capital Cities' Secretariat Conference (Question No. 4751) {: #subdebate-60-9-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr Whitlam: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: >What requests or suggestions were made at the conference of the Capital Cities' Secretariat in Adelaide between 20th and 22nd October 1971 for legislative or administrative action by (a) the Commonwealth and (b) the States. {: #subdebate-60-9-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >So far as 1 am aware, the information sought by the honourable member has not been conveyed to. the Commonwealth. However Press reports at the time indicated that the conference resolved .to - prepare a submission to the Commonwealth seeking financial assistance for the planning and implementation of urban renewal and for other purposes. {:#subdebate-60-10} #### Policy Decisions: Effects and Aids (Question No. 4822) {: #subdebate-60-10-s0 .speaker-KDP} ##### Dr Everingham: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has his attention been, drawn to work by Jay Forrester at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on world dynamics for the Club of Rome. 1. -- If so, does this suggest that most policy decisions have counter-intuitive social effects which" can to some extent be forecast. 2. Has his attention also been drawn to the report on legislators' computer requirements commissioned by the United States Congress Committee *on* House Administration (Stanford Research Institute Project No. 873S System Management Plati to Develop' a' Computer-based Information Handling System for the United States House of Representatives). 3. If so, will he report to the House on the applicability of these findings to Australian legislatures and policies, and the estimated economies obtainable by use of modem decision-making aids. {: #subdebate-60-10-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to thu honourable members question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. 1. See (1). 2. No. 3. 1 am informed that the report referred to by the honourable ' member- would relate to the provision in the Parliament of a detailed computerised information service for members. As such it is a matter which might more appropriately bc considered by the Pressing Officers. {:#subdebate-60-11} #### Public Service: Decentralisation (Question No. 4842) {: #subdebate-60-11-s0 .speaker-6U4} ##### Mr WHITLAM:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: >Why does he consider it appropriate to seek lh.' advice of the Public Service Boatd on the transfer of departments from Melbourne to a point between Melbourne and Canberra, sunt a's Albury-Wodonga, instead of Canberra (Hansard, 29th September 1971, page 1620) but not. seek the Board's advice on the siting of additional accommodation for departments in the Sydney metropolitan area at a point nea.er to the centre of Sydney's population, such as Parramatta (Hunsard, 30th November 1971). {: #subdebate-60-11-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >On 30th November the honourable member asked inter alia in a question without notice whether 1 would ask the Public Service Board to advise whether it would be economic and convenient to site the next major Commonwealth building in the metropolitan area of Sydney at, say, Parramatta. In reply to that part of the honourable member's question, I replied that it was not a function of the Public Service Board to make such a decision on its own. I did not say that I did not consider it appropriate to seek the Board's advice. > >I have in fact referred that part of the honourable gentleman's question for advice from my colleague the Minister for' the Interior whore department would certainly examine the proposal in col: laboration wilh the Public Service Board and other authorities. Electoral: Queensland Sub-divisions and Enrolments. (Question No. 4858) **Mr Cross** asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What sum was spent on checking Commonwealth Electoral enrolments in Queensland in each of the years 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71. and what sum is provided for 1971-72. 1. How many Queensland subdivisions are there and how many - of them were completely checked during 1971. . 2. Will sufficient funds and. personnel be made available to ensure that 'all subdivisions are checked before the anticipated general election towards the end of 1972; if not, why not. .. {: #subdebate-60-11-s2 .speaker-GH4} ##### Mr Hunt:
CP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="a" start="l"} 0. The checking of Commonwealth electoral enrolments » conducted under two systems: {: type="i" start="i"} 0. Electoral Agency system where information is supplied by electoral agents - this covers the rural areas. 1. Habitation Review system under which Review Officers carry out a house-to-house canvass in metropolitan and other built-up areas. The expenditure in Queensland under each system during the financial years 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71 was- The amounts provided in the 1971-72 estimates for Queensland are $1,300 for payments under the electoral agency system and (26,000 for payment under the habitation review system. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. There are 192 subdivisions in the State of Queensland of which 79 are covered by the electoral agents system and 113 are covered by the habitation review system 43 subdivisions were checked by Habitation Review since 1st July 1971 and a further 22 subdivisions are currently being checked. 1. The funds provided in financial year 1971- 72 will allow a review of approximately 75 per cent of the subdivisions before 30th June 1972. A continuation of the review in financial year 1972- 73 will allow a complete review prior to the next general election providing it is held towards the end of 1972. It is anticipated that personnel will be available to enable the completion of a full review of the habitations. Australian Forces in MalaysiaSingapore (Question No. 4870) {: #subdebate-60-11-s3 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. During his recent discussions with President Nixon and members of his Administration, did he seek an assurance that the ANZUS Treaty covered Australian Forces stationed in the SingaporeMalaysia area. 1. Ii so, from whom did he seek the assurance, and with what result. {: #subdebate-60-11-s4 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: >I refer the honourable member to the relevant part of my statement to the House on 23rd > >November 1971 on my visit to the United States of America and Great Britain (Hansard, page 3496). {:#subdebate-60-12} #### Indian Ocean Zone of -Peace and Neutrality (Question No. 4886) {: #subdebate-60-12-s0 .speaker-KEC} ##### Mr Kennedy: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. During his recent discussions with the Indian Prime Minister **(Mrs Gandhi),** did he discuss the Indian Government's objective of a zone of peace and neutrality in the Indian Ocean: if not, why not. 1. If so, (a) did the Indian Prime Minister request the Australian Government's support for this objective and (b) what attitude did ha express. 2. Did he discuss the subject with any leader, minister or official of (a) The British Government and (b) the United States Government. 3. If so, what attitude was expressed by (a) Those with whom he had discussions and (b) himself. 4. Did the Indian Prime Minister request that he support the objective of a zone of peace and neutrality in the Indian Ocean with (a) the British Government and (b) the United States Government: if so, did he do so. {: #subdebate-60-12-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question . is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. There was no discussion with the Indian Prime Minister on the objective of a zone of peace and neutrality in the Indian Ocean. The proposal that the Indian Ocean should be a zone of peace and neutrality was introduced into the current session of the United Nations General Assembly not by India, but by the Prime Minister of Ceylon. 1. See (1). 2. (a) Yes. (b) No. 3. It would not be proper to disclose the detailed nature of confidential discussions. 4. See (1). {:#subdebate-60-13} #### Extra Pension Payment for Christmas (Question No. 4949) {: #subdebate-60-13-s0 .speaker-5J4} ##### Mr Scholes: asked the Prime Minister, upon notice: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has he received a request from pensioner associations asking that an extra social service payment be made during December as a Christmas payment. 1. If so, what action has been taken to meet this request. {: #subdebate-60-13-s1 .speaker-009MA} ##### Mr McMahon:
LP -- The answer to the honourable member's question is as follows: {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. 1. See (1) above.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 9 December 1971, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1971/19711209_reps_27_hor75/>.